Western Australian Planning Commission
Metropolitan Region Scheme Amendment 1100/33
Canning Highway, between Petra Street and Canning Bridge
City of Melville
TRANSCRIPT OF HEARINGS
March 2009
Perth Western Australia
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Western AuslTalian 1 0 SEP 2009 Planning, GOVIANtACNT Or Mb TERN AU° t RALIA Commission UHL): Recording and Transcription This transcript is produced from live audio recordings.Whilst every care is taken in itspreparation absolute accuracy cannot be guaranteed. No changes are madeto grammar and syntax. Metropolitan Region Scheme Amendment 1100/33
Canning Highway, between Petra Street and Canning Bridge
Transcript of Hearings
City of Melville
Western Australian Planning, Commission
March 2009 © State of Western Australia Internet: http://www.wa.gov.au
Published by the Western Australian Planning Commission, Albert Facey House, 469 Wellington Street, Perth Western Australia 6000
MRS Amendment No. 1100/33 Transcriptsof Public Hearings File 809-2-17-6 Pt. 3 Published March 2009
ISBN 0 7309 9972 6
Internet: http://www.wapc.wa.gov.au e-mail: [email protected] Phone: (08)92647777 Fax: (08)92647566 TTY: (08)92647535
Copies of this document are available in alternative formats on application to the disability services co-ordinator. Introduction to Metropolitan Region Scheme major amendments
The Western Australian Planning Commission (WAPC) is responsiblefor keeping the Metropolitan Region Scheme under review and initiating changes where they are seen as necessary.
The Metropolitan Region Scheme (MRS) sets out the broad pattern of land usefor the whole Perth metropolitan region. The MRS is constantly under review to bestreflect regional planning and development needs.
An amendment proposal to change land use reservations and zones inthe MRS is regulated by the Planning and Development Act 2005. That legislation provides for publicsubmissions to be made on proposed amendments.
For a substantial amendment, often referred to as a major amendment(made under section 41of the Act), the WAPC considersall the submissions lodged, and publishesits recommendations in a report on submissions. This report is presented to the Minister for Planning and Infrastructure and to the Governor for approval. Both Houses of Parliament must then scrutinise the amendment before it can take legal effect.
In the process of making a substantial amendment to the MRS, information ispublished as a public record under the following titles:
Amendment report This document is available from the start of the public advertising period of the proposed amendment.Itsets out the purpose and scope of the proposal, explains why the amendment is considered necessary, and informs people how they can comment through the submission process.
Environmental review report The Environmental Protection Authority must consider the environmental impact of an amendment to the MRS before it can be advertised. Should it require formal assessment, an environmental review is undertaken and made available forinformation and comment at the same time as the amendment report.
Report on submissions The planning rationale, determination of submissions and the WAPC's recommendations for final approval of the amendment, with or without modification, is documented in this report.
Submissions This document contains a reproduction of all written submissions received by the WAPC on the proposed amendment.
Transcript of hearings A person who has made a written submission may also choose to appear before a hearings committee to express their views. The hearings proceedings are recorded and transcribed, and the transcripts of all hearings are reproduced in this volume.
MINUTES OF THE COMMITTEE HEARING SUBMISSIONS ON METROPOLITAN REGION SCHEME AMENDMENT NO. 1100/33 Canning Highway, between Petra Street and Canning Bridge.
Wednesday, 5 October 2005, 6th Floor Conference Room, Albert Facey House,469 Wellington Street, Perth
The Committee was established by resolution of the Metropolitan Region PlanningCommittee (MRPC) on 13 September 2005.
CHAIRPERSON Ms Verity Allan Member of the Western Australian Planning Committee
MEMBERS Cr Richard Graham Chairperson of the South West Districts Planning Committee
Mrs Susan Pickford Kreemer Independent with transport expertise
IN ATTENDANCE Mr Alan Kleidon Department for Planning and Infrastructure
Ms Julie Davey Department for Planning and Infrastructure
Presentations to the hearings committee commenced at 9.30am.
The proceedings were recorded by 'Spark & Cannon Pty Ltd'.
The following people made presentations to the Hearings Committee:
1) Mrs Tonci Erceg for submission number 35. Mrs Erceg represented Mr Brian Erceg and herself.
2) Ms Anna Ward for submission number 34. Ms Ward represented G.M & A Woerlee Pty Ltd & Woerlee Holdings.
3) Mr Ronald & Mrs Sylvia Barclay-Monet-Gadd for submission number 32. Mr & Mrs Barclay-Monet-Gadd represented themselves.
4) Mr Bruce Robinson for submissions numbered 46 & 47. Mr Robinson represented the Transport Coalition and the Cyclist's Action Group,
5) Mr Finbarr Donnan for submission number 43. Mr Donnan represented himself.
6) Mr Noel Eddington for submission number 48. Mr Eddington represented the Cycle Touring Association.
7) Mr John Chortis for submission number 55. Mr Chortis represented Mr Angelo Chortis. 8) Mr David Nicholson forsubmission number 39. Mr Nicholson represented theWA Cycling Committee.
9) Mr Frank Lemma and Mr ConBagios for submission number 30. Messrs'Lemma and Bagios representedNewminster Holdings Pty Ltd.
10) Mr Clifford and Mrs Patricia Tarrantfor submission number 17. Mr & Mrs Tarrant representedthemselves. number 44. 11) Mr David Van Den Dries and MrLindsay Broadhurst for submission Messrs Van Den Dries & Broadhurstrepresented Main Roads WA. Committee: The following person cancelledtheir appointment with the Hearings
o Dr Janet Wool lard MLA forsubmission number 20.
MS Verity Allan declared thehearings closed at 4.30pm.
CHAIRPERSON:
DATE: MRS TONCI ERCEG Representing Mr Brian Erceg and herself
MS ALLAN: Tonci?
MS ERCEG: Tonci, yes.
MS ALLAN: Hello. I will just see if we are ready to start because we record the proceedings, so Iwill just check.Are we ready?Yes.Tonci, today we're hearing your views.You have asked to provide some verbal information in addition to yourwritten submission, yours and Brian's, and we would be keen to hear you. Who we are is we are a committee that has been established by the West Australian PlanningCommission and our role is to literally just hear what you've got to say. My name isVerity Allan and I'm on the West Australian Planning Commission, one of the committees there.To my left is Susan Kreemer-Pickford and to my right is Richard Graham who is a councillorof the local authority. Alan Kleidon is helping us today, from the department.
MS ERCEG: How are you, Alan, yes.
MS ALLAN:Tonci, we have got Tim sitting in too. He's just sitting in, he's a new transport planner to the department, so I hope you don't mind if he's here.
MS ERCEG: No, that's fine.
MS ALLAN: Itis relatively informal.You have got 15 minutes to talk or to ask some questions if you'd like to but we're happy to hear what you've got to saywhenever you're ready to start.
MS ERCEG: Okay. I'm not very good at this and I wish my husband was here but anyway he's off in Sydney with my children.Okay, well, you're aware of the site that we're talking about, are you, or not?
MS ALLAN: Yes, the Point Walter Medical Centre.
MS ERCEG: That's right.It's on the corner of
MS ALLAN: We have got a photograph. You've actually included photographs with your submission.
MS ERCEG: Yes, that's right.
MS ALLAN:It was very useful, thank you, so thanks for those.
MS ERCEG: Thanks to my niece who works for the Main Roads.I haven't got a clue about those digital cameras and that. MS ALLAN: Well, it worked out well.
MS ERCEG: Anyway the building was approved by the councilin May 1999 and it was completed in June 2001 and we purchaseditin December 2001.So that's a bit of background on how we managed to get thatbuilding. Foundation Health Care actually run the medical centre there and there areapproximately 10 doctors there. Ithink it varies every now and then.There's a dental surgery, a pharmacy, podiatry,physiotherapy also service, pathology.There's a pool there, so there's hydrotherapyavailable as well and there's a gynaecologist and psychologist alsoavailable at the medical centre. So it offers basically a one-stop service for people who usethat medical centre.It's very handy not having to travel far and wide to get all thesethings done, so it's a really good medical centre.
I'm not sure how many people are employed thereby all these different people, you know, the pharmacy and all that.I'm not sure the volume of people that actuallywork there but certainly they do have a lot of need for all theparking that is currently there. This turning lane is going to take approximately 20 car baysI'm not a hundred per cent sure.I tried to do some measuring. We went there onsite trying to picture how many car bays will really be removed but it's basically the whole frontof the medical centre.
I think doing that will really impact on thebusiness run from there.I mean, initially to have that building approved they required acertain amount of car bays anyway, according to the gross letable, net letable I don't know how it works.Letable area you have to have a certain amount of car bays for that size building.So if we remove all those car bays, I don't know where any other car bays are going tobe located.I think also removing those would cause problems along PointWalter Road because people would obviously thenbe using, you know, the local parkingin front of peoples homes and that to be able tohave access to the medical centre.
I think it would just be a terrible thing to do totake away those car bays and my reasoning also for not - my opinion as to why you don'treally need a turning lane there is that there's such good visibility to that corner. Several hundredmetres away from the Carrington Street lights you can view Point Walter Road, you canview that intersection.It's not as if it's in a blind spot or somewhere you feel you need aturning lane because it's dangerous.It really is - as I say, it has got an excellent view to theintersection.It's in a valley, so people usually have to slow down to turn into that corner anyway, soI can't imagine that it would cause a lot of accidents with people needing to slowdown because of people turning in front of them.
I think there's only four businesses there onthe corner that attract, I suppose, traffic into that street.From what I can see it's the medical centre, thelittle restaurant next door to that which only opens in the evenings and there's a littlepanel beater next to that and across the road is a hotel. So I don't understand why aturning lane is really required for such ait's really basically a residential area with just thosefew little businesses there situated close to the corner.
2 In the ideal world I can imagine that a turning laneis wonderful on a highway because it allows for the flow of traffic but because this medical centre wasonly recently built and it was approved with the amount of carbays that are there, it seems ridiculous now to install a turning lane and create all these other problems that couldeasily be avoided.
The other thing is the lane from Point Walter Roadinto Canning Highway merely turns left, so there is no congestion there onthat corner creating any other kind of hazard.It's not as if you have got people piling up trying to turnright.There's only a left turning lane from Point Walter into Canning Highway, so Idon't feel that it's a really crucial thing to have a turning lane there.
The other point, as I race along,I want to say is that when I came here and I met Alanand he showed me some plans of this proposed MRS, abouttwo blocks along Canning Highway heading towards the city there's the Melville Plazashopping centre and that's a really pumping little centre.It has got a huge Coles supermarket there and lots oflittle speciality stores and pharmacies and God know what.It also has a reasonably large Dewsons store that trades seven days a week and there's a swap meetin that carpark every Sunday. So that is a really busy, busy little centre and yetthere's no proposed turning lane into that centre. So I don't know where or why one would want toput a turning into a little tiny local residential kind of street when one at a shopping centre isn't evenproposed. So I would like it to be removed off the MRS. What else can I say?I think that's about it.
MS ALLAN: Thanks very much for that. Yours is lotnumber 1, isn't it?
MSERCEG:Yes, 1 and 2.
MS ALLAN:1 and 2, yes.I just wanted to confirm that. So it's the existing MRS.When you purchased the property were you awarethat there was a reservation on it?
MSERCEG:It was said that the reservation wasn't going to be implemented,the large
MS ALLAN: The large one, wider.
MSERCEG:Yes. We were told that possibly there wouldthat itbe would just take a only the frontage, not the actualit wouldn't encroach on the carpark basically; that it wouldonly reach up to the existing - what do you call it?
MSKREEMER-PICKFORD:The landscaping?
MS ERCEG:Yes. Why would something like that be approved of ifand especially with the requirement for so many car bays? Why would one approveit in the wayin the design that it was? Why would that be approved as recently as 1999if they needed to take seven or eight metres off the front?
MS ALLAN:No, that's a good question.It would be looking at six metres actually, 6.8, so just under seven. MS ERCEG: Then it goes up to a corner.
MS ALLAN: There's a truncation, yes.
MS ERCEG: Which is really the bit that impacts on the frontparking, because you can't round the actual building. You can have thisif you want it. This is the design these arethe car bays and this is the actualbuilding.
MS ALLAN:That would be useful, justwe could look at it now. Have yougot a copy of that, Alan?
MR KLEIDON: No, I don't at the moment.
MS ERCEG:I have just got one that Alan gave me.
MS ALLAN:Right. So if we went back the eight metres, 8.4,that would take off -
MS ERCEG: We actually went on site, myhusband and I, and measured from the road to where the actual kerbing for the parkingis. Well, that's just six metres up to the parking, so the measurements that you people have wouldbe at least another metre in from that. As it is the carparking is very tight. Taking anyamount of land from that spot would removethe carparking from the front, I would say.
MS ALLAN:Right. So you've got two major concerns. One isthe corner and one is the - well, one is the rest of the front, the carpark.
MS ERCEG: Yes, that's right. The corneralso has carparking on it as well. You know, the whole entire frontage there the parking wouldbe removed if this turning lane was put in. I don't understandas I say, I don't understand why youneed a turning lane there. What is - you know, it's a local area, localresidential area. Why would you need a turninglane, in particular when you don't have one in a big hugeshopping centre only two blocks up the road?
MS ALLAN:Did you just very quickly want to answer that?Have you got an answer for that or shall we take that on notice?
MR KLEIDON:I have got a theory but not a definitive answer.
MS ALLAN: But it's something that if you needed to talk to Alanabout separately, it's a technical detail and you could possibly ask himthat later on.Tonci,I'll just ask the committee if they've got any questions of you.
CLR GRAHAM: At the moment are all the carbays full? What sort of occupancy rate do you have of your carpark at themoment?
4 MS ERCEG:I don't know.I don't know whether they are all full.I mean, there's a lot of people that are employed there, so I imagine it could bepretty full. The little restaurant that back onto our carpark there uses our carpark aswell for their deliveries. They have got no access to the back of their business todeliver all their stock. So they basically use that as well.You can't really police a lot of what goes onthere, so other people also use the parking.
CLR GRAHAM: Okay. And how many car baysdo you have in total?
MS ERCEG: There's around sixty.
CLR GRAHAM: Okay. The final question isif these car bays were removed where do you anticipate that the clients of the workers of the peopleat this building - where would they park?
MS ERCEG:I would say along Point Walter Road, youknow, they would be parking in the street,I assume.
MS ALLAN:Is the rear carpark full, do you know?
MS ERCEG:I would say that it is.With the amount of people that work there and the - I mean, look at all the businesses that are runfrom there and the patients.Unfortunately I don't go there every day of the week. The timesthat I have been there the odd bay is why does the council, for vacant here and there. I just think it would definitely affect example, have numbers of car bays per gross letable areain place if you then turn around and take away the car bays?Do you know what I mean?Like, that was part of the purchase of the property is that it had that many carbays and that's what you required and to take them away and it's a huge amount.I mean, if you took two or three away you could probably live with it but to take 2D-odd, that's a lot.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Can I just ask, is therestaurant open during the day?
MS ERCEG: No, it's only evenings.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Its only evenings.
MS ERCEG: Yes.
MS ALLAN:All right.Well, look, you've answered our questions veryhelpfully and the presentation was very helpful too.It amplified your written submission well.I wondered if is this a spare for us?
MS ERCEG: Yes, you can have that.
MS ALLAN: Are you sure? MS ERCEG:Yes, that's fine.
MS ALLAN: Thanks very much for coming in,Tonci.
MS ERCEG:Thanks a lot.
MSALLAN:The process from here is it will go through aseries of committees within the commission and then go to the minister fordetermination before going to parliament.It's not anticipated that the amendment will beknown or go through parliament until the autumn session of parliament next year, so May next year atthe earliest before it's finalised.
MS ERCEG:Okay.
MS ALLAN:That's what we anticipate. The facts remains thatthe reservation is a long- term reservation, just as the current one is.So it's of a long-term nature.
MSERCEG:But nonetheless one has to bring this forwardotherwise it could just happen without
MS ALLAN:It's the right time to make the comments. Thanks verymuch, Tonci.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Thank you.
6 MS ANNA WARD Representing G.M & A Woerlee Pty Ltd and Woerlee Holdings
MS ALLAN: Good morning, Anna. I'm Verity Allan.
MS WARD:Hi.
CLR GRAHAM: Hello, Anna.
MS WARD: Hello Richard. And it's Susan?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Susan, yes.
MS WARD: And Alan.
MS ALLAN: And Alan.
MS WARD: We've met before.
MR KLEIDON: Yes.
MS WARD: Thank you.
MS ALLAN: Anna, you've probably been to hearings before, so you probably knowthe arrangements but we have obviously read your submission and we'rehere to listen to what you would like to say in terms of amplifying yourwritten submission and we're ready to hear you whenever you would like to get started, so wewill leave it to you.
MS WARD: Thank you, Verity.I thank you very much for the opportunity to come and talk about my - plead my case of a small business, owned for 46 years theseproperties.It is part of my parents' superannuation and part of our business.Now, I'm giving you each a copy - I know that you've probably got a lot of allof these things anyway - but it will give you some extra material thatand I've also taken some photos as well so that we can deal with it.
What Idid was I Firstly, I understand what this whole this about. You want a bus lane. asked Alan and Mark to come out and have a look at the problem andof course Alan shook his head and said, "Yeah, quite an interesting problem."You will need clients with helicopters," and if they want to have a highway running in their lounge room,fine, that is really beaut. Also there are some other issues too which impact seriously on ourbusiness, not only in the egress and the ingress of our properties is going to be severelyimpacted but it severely impacts upon our business as residential rentals.Who wants to rent with a highway going through the lounge or cannot access the properties? Okay,serious.
7 As I said, we have owned these propertiesfor 46 years. The ever-increasing costs on these properties, as I have given you also :a tablein there of since this government has been in power.I have given you also a copy in your bits andpieces of the ever-increasing land tax since 2001 with the flow-on to council and waterrates.
You will see that if we have a diminishingreturn on income, we cannot service the ever- increasing tax burden. You will also notethat the three properties that are linked to each other, 887, 885 and 883, all have verydifferent land tax applications. One is $6000 and leading to $1600. A property at the back is 8000.Now, you work that one out.
We're going to be suffering increasing land taxand you're asking us to give land for your bus stop. The problem which I have alreadyshown Alan -
MS ALLAN:Sorry, could I just make the point, Anna, our roleis to hear what you have to say.I don't know who you're referring to when you say"you" but I would appreciate it if you could treat the hearings committee as ahearings committee. We are impartial and when you say "you" it implies that wehave
MS WARD:I apologise for that.I apologise.I don't mean it in that context.I'm speaking generically.
MS ALLAN:So if you would like to talk about the commission orthe department, you're welcome.
MS WARD:Sorry about that, Verity. Well, what I'm going to do is show you somephotos that I have taken.In the first one, which is 887, which is lot 9 - now,I don't know whether you have got a map of this.I have actually prepared a map for you.
MS ALLAN: We've got these lots here, yes, thank you.
MS WARD:I will give you another copy. These are thephotos and as you can seenow, with the photo you will see that the highway, theresumption that you are proposing to take, will come down to about just here, just short ofthis garage. Now, if you have a look at all the other photos in context you will see that thehighway is significantly higher than that garage. Now, the problem is, asAlan has pointed out and has also seen for himself, thatit's about nearly a two metre drop.Cars are not designed to make two metre drops from highways and also the amenity for my tenants usingthe garage and the driveway is absolutely finished.This is also further shots of this same issue and youwill see that the limestone here will give you some indicator of what sortof depth we've had to actually retain the soil from the highway so that we can actually haveingress and egress of the property. I have given a series of photos so that you can see andalso with a car on an angle so that you can actually see there is quite asteep incline.
MS ALLAN: Thank you.
8 MS WARD: So that would actually prevent us fromallowing tenants to come in and out and also the highway being on the front doorstep. As we ownthe three properties from that one, 887, and then to 885 and then to 883, thisis further information and photos - and I'll leave these with you, this is for the purpose of the hearing.This is from 885 and I have taken these from 887. You can see once again the steepincline of the property.With 885 we have had toand this is our property 883.
You can see the considerable foundations and thewalls that we have had to build to retain the soil from the highway and make sure thehighway stays on the highway.This is just further to show the graded limestone coming throughthe highway into the property.So those are there for you to see how much extensiveretaining work we have had to do so that we can actually manage ingressand egress.
I leave those for the hearing to consider.
On the other property, this is lot 306 or 865and I have also a little map for you there so that you can also see.
MS ALLAN: Thank you.
MS WARD: Alan has also seen these as well.
MS ALLAN:I think we've got those ones actually.
MS WARD:Yes, you do but Ifelt that - just in case.I have taken shots here to show you where this property will be impacted upon. You will see -that's where the highway isyou were proposing to - - -
MS ALLAN: To that wall.
MS WARD: The little retaining one.
MS ALLAN: Yes, that's right.
MS WARD:You can see that Iwill lose the amenity of my rubbish area, my parking area and it sits hard on my units and who is going to let thoseunits?I have left the tax records for you to see the increasing tax burden thatI have and this poses considerable problems for me to earn a living when a highway is running through alounge room.
MS ALLAN: There are eight units.
MS WARD:There are eight units, yes, and in the other properties there'sonlyon lot 9 there's four units and on the next one up, that's 885, is two houses.So what I'm trying to prove with these photos is exactly what Alanhas seen physically but -
CLR GRAHAM: Can I just have a look?
9 MS WARD:Yes, you may. The considerable earthworksthat's needed to retain, so that my tenants can come in and outand as you can see, with the seriousness - it doesimpact considerably on our long-term business.
MS ALLAN: Allright. So the previous reservation wasdo you know where the previous reservation
MS WARD:Well, the previous reservation, that's on thethere's the original one.I think this is it.That's the original reservation, this line up here.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MS WARD: Soit's considerable.
MS ALLAN:Yes. So it's taking more land than the -I see, yes, the two lines. Thanks for clarifying that.
MS WARD:That's fine. So we're making a plea because wecan'tI mean, it is all too glib to say, "You can sell it or you can redevelop," butthat incurs a lot of expense at this time to what was designed at this point in time inbusiness for my parents' superannuation. My mother is demented, my father is the carer and Ihave been, as a director, managing their affairs and I'm trying.
MS ALLAN:All right. Thanks very much for that. Any questionsSusan or Richard?
question of if you didsay this went CLR GRAHAM: I guess I would just like to explore the through and you did retain these properties. Have youlooked at what remedial you would have to do in order to make these properties stilluseable?
council zonings and MS WARD: I have already been undergoing some research with the stuff like that, so that I can look at what is possiblebut it's quite extensive in terms of land works and it also reduces the plot ratios that we arepossibly able to use for that property. So that's sort of undergoingwe're sort of in discussion about that at the moment.I had done some previous work on this a couple of years ago tolook at what we can do with these properties to make them moreyou know, we're looking at the wholeprecinct, the Canning Bridge precinct, and looking at what is the best wayforward and what can we do but one this is a considerable cost in earthworks to actuallymake sure that things can happen and there's also a loss of some - possibility of loss ofconsiderable plot ratio for building.
CLR GRAHAM:Explain to me about the plot ratio. What's the cause -
MS WARD:Well, you're given an easement on a property. My understandingis, and I stand to be corrected on this, if you've got an easement on aproperty, that actually comes into play when you're trying to comply withcouncil zonings in how much land you can actually use for every house and all of the other attendantplanning things.
10 CLR GRAHAM: Sothis loss of land would affect the total area.
MS WARD:Can do, and that's what I'm exploring. I'm not going to say yes ornot because at the moment I'm investigating that andthat takes time, as you can understand.With planning there's some negotiation here and somenegotiation there and you have to look what's possible and at the moment it's all up in theair because no-one knows if this bus lane is going to come in or not. So you can't plan.
CLR GRAHAM: No.
MS WARD:It's just holding things up and seeing whatbecause, you know, if you do start going ahead with a redevelopment, then someoneelse comes in with a good idea that something else can happen and you're back to square one.
CLR GRAHAM: The final question is what sort of lease terms do you havefor people there? Are these short-term rentals, long-term, what'sthe average?
MS WARD: I've got people there that have been there for 12, 13, 14 yearsand the most recent iswell, six months, because one turned over but they tend tobe long-term people and that's what I work on, is making homes and livingcommunities. That's my whole basis for my industry,is creating with the blocks of units and properties that I have, living communities where people can feel that they can live attheir home and that is why my mission statements and my vision; that it's not just a blockof flats bleeding tenants.I really - and if you go to any of myI'm very passionate about living spaces that are a community and that people feel they are looked after.
They know their neighbours.I make sure good neighbourhood practices are put in place. They all know their neighbours. In fact one block of units isalreadybecause I have set up the Christmas barbie - working on the Christmasbarbie, and that's a block of 24.And another block, they workI've just been letting units.I don't even advertise because their mates from the university or somewhere or other arecoming and they know this is a good place.That's how I work.It's not just bleeding people, you know, the typcial image of a
landlord. I like to make a place with a vision.I only take on people that have a vision for their lives as well and Iwill do that.I'm quite passionate about that, very passionate.It works.
So, as I say, where my parents fit in; this is their superannuation andthat's why I try to do. My people stay with me a long time or they recommendsee, I've got another unit that I'm going to and they all heard about it in the block and (indistinct) alreadylined up. They know what I don't want isI'm very seriousno drugs, no idiots. You want a home, those are the rules.It works and the tenants get a box of chocolates if they recommend someone.
CLR GRAHAM:Can I just ask a question or make a point I suppose?
MS WARD:Sure.
11 CLR GRAHAM:In giving us this financial information I understandwhat you two have said, was that you were concernedabout the longer term financial effect of what's proposed upon for background your property. Now, Ijust what to clarify whether you intend this just information or how you intend this to affect ourdecision-making.
MS WARD:This is intended to give you some backgroundinformation because it's all so easy to say that there's lossof income and just say we'll lose income, butI also want to show the increasing costs that we have tomake up that income so that we can actually pay these increasing costs.So it's giving you a physical figure so that you can seewhat I'm trying to get across is that if you havesomething that's going to create a diminishing return, whereas the property is increasingly being taxed,the costs are highly.This is a tangible record for you to show that that side of theso diminishing returns because someof the buildings are inside very old.Do Irenovate them and what is the negligibleimpact on increase in rent if you've got a highway runningthrough the front.
CLR GRAHAM:Okay.
MS WARD:See, those are the business decisions that I'mmaking.I can easily glibly say to you my increasing costs on tax are high butthere's nothing there for you to see. So that's all it is, it's background information sothat you can see my business decision. Do I renovate them and try the market with a highway runningthrough the front.
CLR GRAHAM: I understand.
MS WARD:But I also have to make up for the taxes that Ihave to pay.
CLR GRAHAM:Okay, thanks.
MS WARD:That's all that that's there for.Its nothing there to show off or whatever.It's just a practical business -
CLR GRAHAM:Yes, I just wanted to clarify that.
MS WARD:That's fine, Richard.
MS ALLAN:Anna, thanks very much for that. That was a verythorough presentation and we appreciate it, that you havebeen able to come in and present in person to us.
appreciate the opportunity, seriously, and I hope that whenwill some sort of MS WARD: I a decision will be made?
MS ALLAN: It looks the process internally within the department andwithin the commission will take a couple of months after thesehearings.So the report will go up through the Metropolitan Region Planning Committeeof the WAPC after it's completed. So our recommendation to the WAPCwill go through that channel.That will happen before
12 Christmas as well as the recommendation fromthe commission to the minister. So parliament drafting et cetera, it looks like the autumn session ofparliament.
CLR GRAHAM: Next year, so May next year.
MS ALLAN: So we're looking at May for the earliest.
MS WARD: Okay.
MS ALLAN: Being realistic about it.
MS WARD: One question I do have isI don't quite understandnow, from Canning Bridge to Sleat Road, is there any land resumption happeningthere for bus lanes and whatever?
MR KLEIDON: You're welcome to inspect the plans right up here.
MS WARD: Sorry, I haven't sort of -
MR KLEIDON:What we have on these concept plans is a series of lines. The redline is the existing metropolitan regional scheme, the white lineshere are existing cadastral boundaries. They're the property boundaries of landowners like yourself.The green line is where the reservation is proposed.
MS WARD:Okay. Canning Bridge to Sleat Way, that's this here. Now, what'shappening here? Is some resumption happening here?
MR KLEIDON:The green and the red are on top of each other. No additional resumption and I can't see whether there's a white line underneath that.
MS WARD: This is the map, so there's nothing really being done here.
MR KLEIDON:Here there's a land requirement because the green line is inside the white line.Lot 1 here on lot 8 on Sleat Road there's a substantial land requirement andit's proposed to be increased on this amendment.
MS WARD: Okay. That's us here.
MR KLEIDON: And this goes on.Yes, there's an existing lane requirement on your property and this one is a modification.
MS WARD:Right. And that's why I've taken the pictures, so that you can see the dramatic effect, that we have to have leaping cars and helicopters. Okay, thank you very, very much for this opportunity.I really appreciate it.
MS ALLAN: Thank you.
13 MS WARD: And thank you once again, Alan,for your help.
MR KLEIDON: Thank you, Anna.
MS WARD:I really appreciate it. By the way, if there'sanything there that you need further clarification, please don't hesitate to contact.
MS ALLAN: Okay, thanks, Anna.
14 MR RONALD & MRS SYLVIA BARCLAY-MONET-GADD
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Hello.
MS ALLAN:Mr and Mrs Barclay-Monet-Gadd.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Hello.
MS ALLAN: Nice to meet you. My name is Verity Allan and I'm chairingthe hearings committee on behalf of the West Australian PlanningCommission today.On my left is Susan Kreemer-Pickford and on my right is CouncillorRichard Graham.
CLR GRAHAM:Hello.
MS ALLAN:We're the hearings committee today. And Alan Kleidonfrom the department is assisting us. We have got your submission before usand we would be delighted to hear from you today to amplify your written submission.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Well, with all due respect to members present, we consider that 15 minutes is a very inadequate time to put our case.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:We would like that put on record. Maybe it can be altered for future people.
MS ALLAN:Well, we will see how we go.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:One of the main things involved in this situation is that the plan that they sent us is nothing like what I got from thecouncil yesterday. Even the council say that this is - their words were "it'ssilly".Now, if they want to take that piece of land they've been trying to get this land now for years. When wefirst moved in there they put in a submission to get it and the statement onthe telephone to me was that, "If we don't get it this time, we'll get enough people next time and graduallywe'll wear people down until we get what we want."I don't think that's a very good attitude at all.
We bought this property. We've spent 40 years of ourlives to end up with this property to retire here and it's got adequate turning for us to get in and outof the property.It's illegal to reverse onto a highway and if they removethat area there, we will end having to do reserve turns into a major highway.In the past five weeks there have been two majoraccidents between Norma Road and North Lake Road, Both ofthem have involved vehicles coming onto this road because ofwell, Perth drivers aren't the most brilliant.But when we come back home, as we put in our submission, people automatically assumethat we're going to turn left into North Lake Road, not that we're going to turn leftinto our driveway and we have to pump the brakes and do all sortsand they still come down hard on us.
15 So if they want to take that and increasethat as a slipway to North Lake Road, then it's going to be a problem where we are actuallymoving into a slipway where people automatically think were going to turn left.I would automatically think people were going to turn left if they were already in that lane.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: If you're in the turning lane why would you bestopping earlier.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Bythe same token, assuming that that was put in there and if the slipway- and we want to go to Fremantle, we are nowturning out of our driveway into a slipway, so people behind us are going toautomatically think we're going to go into North Lake Road. So now we've got to try and get acrossinto the new middle lane, as I call it, to go to Fremantle. So that becomes abig problem. There's not much room for us to park - if my son comes to visit me he parkshis car there.It's very difficult for us to get out as it is. We have to do athree-point turn.If they take that 10 feetthat's making sense in the old languageif they take that way, then it becomes an evenbigger problem.
I have unstable angina, which brings me to anotherpoint. For many years the commission has been holding this over the top of residentsalong the way.This has caused more problems for me.I now have increased angina attacks and it hasbecome a major health problem because this keeps going on and on. You know,they tell me that the existing one goes through the middle of thehouse and "we're being very nice to you and we'removing the boundary line to here," but that's not correct.If the boundary line goes through the middle of the house, they want half the house now. Soif they want that, then they have got to take the whole road - and I gather there's an80 metre reservation on this road all the way up to Stock Road or something.Fair enough, they've got taxpayers' money to findmillions of dollars to buy all the properties.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: The other issue is, with my husband's healthproblems we've had the ambulance three or four times this yearto take him to St John of God in Murdoch and the ambulance can only just get in there, gethim out of the house with the trolley and into the ambulance, with the other cars parked onthe property.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:The other thing we have made a note of in number 4 was that the increase in trucks over 20 tonnes hasescalated in the last two years, especially since the Roe Highway and - what's the other one --
MS ALLAN:Leach Highway.
I don't MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: I check the tonnage as they go by sometimes. stand there all day watching but when I do see them go byand I'm outsidethey're using it.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:He's phoned up the companies and they've said, "No, they shouldn't be using that, I'll have a talk to them."
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:But they still use it.
16 MS ALLAN: They have an agreement not to use it.There's an accord.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:And there's only four inspectors in the whole of Western Australia, which is about two-thirds of Australia, to look after themain transport.
MS ALLAN: Yes.No, there is an accord there.So what's the tonnage that you say is over?
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: 30 tonnes.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:The other issue with reversing is, because I had a motor vehicle accident in 98, I have to do a three-point turn.If you took that part of land off the front of our property I would not be able to get in and out ofthe property, which means we would have to sell the house and we have put a lot intothe house over the last six years ready for retirement.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:If you look at this plan that they've got hereI mean, why have they gone in to Cover ley Street with their new boundaryline when Cover ley is a cul-de- sac?
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Clydesdale is the one we usually come round to go back into North Lake Road.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: The other thing also is in the six years nearly that we've been there we've seen no problem with the existing run-off.There has never, as far as I'm concerned, every been a bank-up of traffic, even though the traffic hasincreased.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: No accidents in that area either.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: The only accident that occurred there wassomebody hit a vehicle down here somewhere - - -
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:In Norma Road.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: - with afour-wheel drive and then continued to drive up here. She was obviously injured or something and then smashed into atelegraph pole here and they put a new one up. They had already put a new one up for the powerfor this new building that's gone up here.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: That's between Cameron and North Lake Road.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: A massive power line and that was out in half by the vehicle, Now, when they move that post it's still going to be in the same dangerous position.
17 MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: You said there was no problem with run-off.Can you just explain what you meant by that?
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: With people havingto turn left into North Lake Road.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Okay.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Yes. What do youcall that, a lead-in or something.
CLR GRAHAM: Excuse me. Could I have alook at that aerial map?
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: This one?
CLR GRAHAM: Yes, thank you.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: That shows ourhouse in the red.
MS ALLAN: Are there level differences?
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:There's only five houses in that block between Coverley and Cowan and we're the third one along.
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:It's only the other side of our house where they'restarting to want to change the property line.
MS ALLAN:Is there a change of level?
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: No.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Not really.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:It's flat, very flat.This is sort of a band-aid situation.If I was the engineer and I wasgoing to do a cut-off there to run traffic into there I would be starting way back here so thatand much wider to come round here into North LakeRoad. I wouldn't be going 10 feet here and zero there. Can I get ajob at your office?
MR KLEIDON: Perhaps.
18 MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: It has become a bit of a problem to us mainly from worrying about it and we're quite concerned that whoeverdesigned this in the first place, with all due respect to their knowledge, has not looked at someof the things that we've put down here, particularly the safety risk. We chose to live by thehighway. We're not affected at the moment by that much noise.If you go and sit in our backyard all you hear is a little bit of white noise, but you do hear the occasional truck goes by nowbecause they're coming up to traffic lights and so they start to brake and a lot ofthem are still using air brakes.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Because you've got the wall, Verity,I mean you've got some garden and you've got bushes and aconservatory. Actually even when you're in the lounge you don't hear much noise at all.People always comment on how quietitis considering we are on a highway. We bought the property tofit four cars in there for parking.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: So we would have to rip up the bit of garden we've got there to increase the parking and they wouldn't be able to turnaround very easily if we did that.
MS ALLAN:This is a battle-axe lot, is it?
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Well, there is ahouse at the back property.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: There isa house at the back but it's not abattle-axe,
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:They get access at the side of our garage to the back, so we can't use the side for parking becausethey have to back out onto the highway as well. They've only just bought the house in the last couple of weeks.
MS ALLAN:It's not a battle-axe block.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: They've got two young children there they've got to take out onto the road,
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Well, it goes straight down to the house at the back.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: And on the right-hand side, the other side, Perth side, there's a couple behind who have got two young children who have to goto get into her house she has to go up onto the little bit of median strip that they havealongside the footpath and reverse into her driveway all the way down.
MS ALLAN:The house at the rear of your lot, 603, did you subdivide your lot?
MR BARCLAY -MONET -GADD: We didn't, no. Itwas already therewhen webought the property.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:It was there when we bought it six years ago.
19 MS ALLAN:Six years. So you've owned the property forsix years.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Yes, but that was built I think about two yearsbefore that.
MS ALLAN:It looks quite recent from the photograph.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:They don't have any garden at all.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:They've only got 300 and something square metres.
MS ALLAN:No, I just wondered and their access isonly onto Canning Highway.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Yes, we've got a joint driveway on the left.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:They have to reverse out into the highway.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:We have to pay joint insurance on that.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:The same as Marina next door at the back.
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:She has to do the same thing.said, As sheRon has to come up onto the verge and reverseall the way down her driveway.
MS ALLAN:Okay. Thanks for that.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: The people next door to us, they are of Asiandescent. They are nice people, they own a restaurant orsomething in Fremantle but I don't think they understand what's going on.I don't think they realise that the commission wants totake 10 feet of their land.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:The owners actually live in Singapore and the motherlives there with a friend.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:It sounds easy, 3.2 metres but it's not. In the oldlanguage it's 10 feet and 10 feet is a lotit's from that window there to here.
MS ALLAN:That's within your property line, is it?
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Yes.
MS ALLAN:It looks like from this plan that it's on the verge.
20 MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: 7.3metres.
MS ALLAN:Into your property line from the verge.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:From our boundary they want to move it n3.4metres.
MS ALLAN:Right, okay.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:And over here it moves back to zero on lot 9.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:And having done that, they still have to put a verge on the edge, so you would still get the same problem whetherthey count it from the verge or not, they've still got to make another verge outside your property, soyou're still losing as much if you're actually inside the brick wall.
MS ALLAN:Yes.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Now, assuming that it actually had to go to parliament, as it says in the document here that I was suppliedwithifI can just find it.It says here, "In case B, B being that the amendmentproceed with modification, the minister is required to determine whether the modifications are of such a substantialnature as to require re- advertisement.If in their opinion they are, she may direct theWAPC to re-advertise the amendment in such places and such period as shedeems appropriate," so that round we go in another circle, because we would be back hereagain.
MS ALLAN:Yes, that is the case.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:The other issue, Verity, is as we get olderand I expect to retire in five years - it's going to get more of an issuegoing out onto that road and if you have that slipway it's going to be very dangerous,
MR BARCLAY-1VIONET-GADD:We actually bought the property for two reasons. One, we liked the property; two, it's handy for thehospital, the doctors, the shops.It's only 10 minutes to Fremantle, 10 minutes to Perth depending on thefreeway work.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: See,I work at Shenton Park Hospital rehabilitation with multi-trauma orthopaedics, so I see the results of the accidentscoming in.It only takes me 18 minutes from there to get to Shenton Park.
21 MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:One other thing that I'd like to point out and Idon't wish to offend anybody here but we're not paid to be hereand if we want to really challenge this we have to hire a lawyer and that costs hundreds,if not thousands, of dollars, whereas on your side of the fence you have government fundingand I don't think that's actually fair right from the beginning where we have to come in,find parking and take time off to defend something that isit's a bit like the traffic syndrome. "Let's waituntil somebody has an accident and then put the traffic lights up."
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Have they ever considered putting traffic lightsin where Norma Road is and Canning Highway.
MR BARCLAY -MONET -GADD:It's very bad there.
MS ALLAN: Isthat a suggestion you're making?
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Yes, because if you get traffic on the - like,it's two-lane traffic coming into Canning Highway whether you wantto turn right or left, when you get these four-wheel drives you can't see over thebonnet. You have to wait until they go and a lot of people take chances. That's whythey've been having the accidents in the last couple of years.
MS ALLAN:All right.We'll note that and we'll take that on board.Getting back to the earlier comments you made about the hearing process,I think that's just the unfortunate nature of the beast. There's nothing we can doabout it but I take on board - - -
know that you have other things to do and you're very MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: I busy people but Istill think that when you're talking about safetyfactors, that 15 minutes -I mean, we had a lot of trouble finding you.There was a good chance we may not even have got here if we hadn't had a mobile phoneand then we would have missed the meeting and then I would have thought, "Well, surely what I putin somebody would have taken note of it and it would have had the impact."
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:How much note do you actually take ofsubmissions like that? Are they given a good hearing?
public submissions; MS ALLAN: I think so because, firstly, there are two opportunities for the written submissions and then people have theopportunity to be heard, so that there is due weight given.I think compared to other jurisdictions acrossAustralia I think this is a much fairer process. This opportunity isn't offeredin other jurisdictions, so I think it's a very strong positive feature of our planning system.It has been here for many decades and I think it's a very good system.
22 Notwithstanding that,I'msure we'veallgot our own personal views on community consultation and how we could improve it but, having said that,I think we're giving it the best shot. In direct answer to your question, what happens with our recommendations from today is that we write a report that goes through the committee processes within the commission and they take on board our recommendation. The report that we make will be public after that process has gone through. The minister will determine the situation based on advice from the West Australian Planning Commission of which this hearing committee report will be comprise a component.It won't be the only reason they will make a decision but it will be a component of it.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Is there any truth in the fact that if you have actually owned the property for 12 years they cannot touch your property?
MS ALLAN: No.
MS BARCLAY - MONET -GADD:Weere told thatby a member of parliament when all this started several months ago.
MS ALLAN: No. That person might to talk to me or want to talk to the chairman of the West Australian Planning Commission or the minister and clarify the actual reality of the situation.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Who was it who told you that?I was on shift, wasn't when she came in.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Nonames, no pack drill.
MS ALLAN: But, you know, that might be the best option there for them to talk directly to
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:There is just one other point.
MS ALLAN:Yes.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: I spent some time driving around the area looking for another run-off that went directly outside somebody's driveway and I haven't found one yet. Most run-offs to turn left or right are designed well away from private property. They're not running where people have to drive straight out of their driveway ontoit's just not the right thing to do to people.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: I won't just be one driveway,itwill be three or four driveways involved.
MS ALLAN: Several. The fact that there are I call them battle-axe.I hear what you're saying, they're probably strata titled developments rather than battle-axe developments but there are two in this block.
23 MS BARCLAY -MONET -GADD: Well, you have two on our block and two next door and then one on the left-hand side of us. That's five familiesthat will be affected.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: I don't think -
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: As.Ron said, both the families behind us and to the right have got young children. They moved into the area so thechildren could go to a particular school.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Nine times out of 10 she reverses onto the highway.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: They're going to get cars later down the track and not have the experience to go out on a run-off like that.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: The elderly people next door, the Asian people, I don't think they understand what's going on at all. When I asked themif they had received any information they said no. The clinic on the corner, they just rebuilttheir boundary wall and did all electric wiring and everything. Now, I realise of course thatif it went ahead that would all be replaced but then you've got all the inconvenience andeverything that goes with that. I don't know whether they have represented themselves or not anyof these but I think they should have done.
MS ALLAN: Allright. Coming back to your situation, your submission, does that cover all the points that you wanted to raise?
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: I think so. We would only be going round in circles.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Did we go through the one, two, three, four points on there?
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:We've covered every point on here.
MS ALLAN:Yes, we've covered it all.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Number 1 was the safety issue, 2 covered all going in and out of the property and traffic coming up behind us et cetera, 3 wasreducing the frontage of
our property. The only thing I didn't mention was Ithinkanother valid point is that the proposed amendment number 5 would devalue our property, veryimportant tous, regardless of any form of compensation and the noise factor would increase,which is not a very pleasant thought anyway.
24 We actually lived on Albany Highway and for five yearsI had to get up every morning and put ear plugs in my ears.Five years, ear plugs every morning at 5 o'clockbecause the trucks coming down the hill to the Albany Highwaylights at Armada le would all start their air brakes just past our house and come screamingdown and now they're starting to do this more so here because trucks aregetting away with short-cutting through.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Also there's a lot of building going on in the side streets where, you know, houses
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: You can understand trucks with bricks and that for new housing or construction work but these are not.These are container trucks, tandem ones at that too.
MS ALLAN:All right.Well,I think we've got a very good appreciation now ofwhat your certainly written submission said. I think it was very useful that you came in because it helped us clarify the situation. Susan, did you have anyquestions?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Not for me.
CLR GRAHAM: Just one quick one.Perhaps if I could have a look at that aerial photograph again.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:You've got one there or the coloured one.
CLR GRAHAM:Yes, the coloured one, thanks. Now, you touched uponthis during your presentation.I want to try and understand, in your experience, say,during peak hour how far does the traffic bank up heading west?
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: The problem isit doesn't really bank up.It's very free flowing. Honestly, it really is.
CLR GRAHAM:Right. So there's a traffic light there.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: There's traffic lights there and they can't carry through here because when the traffic lights change here to stopyou've got a flow through.
CLR GRAHAM:And they can't go through the KFC.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:They don't go through KFC. The run-off starts about here and just goes in.
CLR GRAHAM: Soto about Cowan Street.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Just past Cowan Street.
CLR GRAHAM:Okay. Good. Thanks.
25 MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Because the traffic is- -
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Even in rush hour traffic we don't have to wait long to turn left into it.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:I mean, most people are quite good when we got out of our property.If the traffic lights have changed to red, then they don't see anydisadvantage allowing us out but if the traffic lights are in their favour you can sit thereforever.
CLR GRAHAM:No chance.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Generally it's more like tradesmen and people like that that let you through, more than the public.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Or a bus driver.
MS ALLAN:Yes. People who are used to driving more frequently are betters drivers often, aren't they, more courteous.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:You can tell the locals who live there because they do 60.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:We know where the Multanovas are and even regardless of that it's better to do the speed limit anyway.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Yousee them going down and you think, "Well, they're not from the area because they're going to get caught," which is good, you know.It means that people are more aware of the speed limit and you don't get the problems.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:You're very quiet, Alan. Taking it all in?
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: I think you will find that what Ron was saying about the accidents that have happened recently, because they come out of Norma Road - who would you need to put a submission into for traffic lightsthere?
MS ALLAN:We will take a note of it and Alan will find out what he can do and get back to you about that specific issue.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Has anybody else put in any queries about that, Alan?
MS ALLAN:He can talk to you about that separately.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Okay.
26 MS ALLAN:Just to wrap up. Ican't allay your concerns fully, obviously that's something that I can't door we can't do.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:No, of course.
MS ALLAN:But we would like to assist where we can. I'm sure Alan's available.If you do have any concerns, as you have done before, you're welcome to talk to him about it but in terms of the timing of the process our decision will be written in the next few weeks, our recommendation that is, and, as I said, it will go to the commission and the minister by the end of this year and if anything would happen, in terms of the amendment going to parliament, we expect by May of next year something to be done in parliament.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: So Ican plant my flowers for a while?
MS ALLAN:Yes. We don't anticipate any specific advice in terms of a new amendment, revised amendment, until that time.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Sowhat you're saying, we won't get a solution until next May.
MS ALLAN:That's right because it requires a change in legislation, an amendment, so that process is a lengthy one.But there are steps along the way, you know, the minister's decision by the end of this year is anticipated and that should be- -
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:So we can't really do anything about developing the front garden. We were going to take the grass up and put cobblestones down.It wouldn't be viable doing that if you don't know what's going to happen.
MS ALLAN:You might need to think about that yourselves but certainly I would remind you that this is really a new line on a planning map. There is no plan to change things physically on Canning Highway, just as there hasn't been before this. This is a refinement of a reserve line on a map.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:It's like the Sword of Damocles though, isn't it?If they don't make an amendment and say, "No, that's not going to go ahead," then you've got the same situation again.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Where you don't know where it's going o come up again in the future.
MS ALLAN:Well, no,I think it would be usual to have another amendment in the future once this has gone through for a start.So Idon't think it would be another case of not knowing in the future.One a decision is make this year/next year, that will he a final decision.
27 MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: Dowe have any recourse if they say it's going to go ahead?
It opens up a series of opportunities for MS ALLAN: I think a few things happens then. refining the planning of it. You know, transport engineering is a different artthan it was 30 years ago when the MRS amendment was putin.
So I really do have a lot of faith in the capacity to integrate transport andland us now. Its a strong platform of this government and the commission.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD: We did find out yesterdayRon went to get that aerial view of the property and the council weren't happy about thechanges there either.They wanted it the other side of the road where you've got all thatland for the parks and everything but I can't see how that would help our side.
CLR GRAHAM: Just in term so of that question you asked, do you have any other remedies.I think we have to be careful to say to you that you may have otherremedies but we're not really in a position to tell you what they are, those remediesoutside of this process that has been explained.
MR BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Okay. Well, we thank you very much for your time.
MS ALLAN:Thanks for coming in. We appreciate your submissions.
MS BARCLAY-MONET-GADD:Thank you.
MS ALLAN:Thanks very much. And may your petunias bloom.
28 MR BRUCE ROBINSON Representing the Transport Coalition and theCyclist's Action Group
MS ALLAN:Hello Bruce, how are you?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Hello, how are youdoing?
MS ALLAN: You probably know Alan.
MR ROBINSON: Yes, I've met him.
MR KLEIDON:Hello, Bruce.
MR ROBINSON: He's sentenced to the WA bicycle committee forbad behaviour in the department.
MS ALLAN: Yes, it's a terrible shame butsomebody has to do it.
MR ROBINSON: I'm actually sort of flying two flags simultaneously I think (indistinct) representing the Cyclists Action Group.
MS ALLAN: We have got David Nicholson representingthe WA cycling committee.
MR ROBINSON: When is he on?
MS ALLAN:1.30 to 2.00. We have allocated you 15 minutes butwe're running 15 minutes late.
MR ROBINSON: So there's 15 minutes for theSustainable Transport Coalition and half an hour for the Cyclists Action Group.
MS ALLAN: Yes. So we have got to 11.45 essentially but weprobably don't need - -
MR ROBINSON:I'll try and be as brief as possible. The computer gremlins areattacking us. Do you want a CD or a memory stick?
MS DAVEY: Whatever you're using.
MR ROBINSON:I've got both, so it's up to you as driver of the computer.Do you want me to start with some preambles while the computer is firingup?
MS ALLAN: Yes, while Julie is starting, yes.Well, we're in your hands. We're happy to start whenever you're ready.
29 MR ROBINSON: The technology - there's all these questions about do we need a technological fix or are we in one and that applies to transport funding as well as to computers. Firstly - and I speak jointly for the Transport Coalition and Cyclists Action Group rather than sequentially.
The groups are, firstly, very pleased that this process is happening, that there isthis strategy of considering things and itis extremely promising.There's a range of things happening from the Network City and those things.
As a bit of a preamble, the Cyclists Action Group was formed at the time as thesecond oil price rises in 1979, a foundation convened at that. The Sustainable Transport Coalition has been going for four years or so. Taking a broad view, that's a very interesting peak body with a range of members. We've organised a couple of important conferences about oil depletion which I think in the written submissions cover one of the key points, so that that's
an interesting, more professional than the CyclistsAction Group. I think I might have mellowed in that time. The Cyclists Action Group was aimed to be a bit of a ginger group. The Sustainable Transport Coalition is aimed to be professional and cooperative, so it works with a lot of local governments.
MS ALLAN: Thanks for that.That explains the two.So the Sustainable Transport Coalition was formed in about 2001.
MR ROBINSON:If that's (indistinct) I'm not quite sure.It's on the Web page. So that both groups are putting in submissions on the broader aspects of planning for the highways and the longer term, so we're not -I think you talked to people before who were concerned about
access to their property in the short to medium term. We're interested in thelonger term. I only met Alistair Hepburn once of the Stephenson-Hepburn Plan but he was at that stage chairing the Melbourne bike plan, planning for bicycle transport in Melbourne.I'm not sure of the history of these sorts of things but I think we're working on a time frame of the order of, you know, 30 or 50 years' planning for these sort of things.
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MR ROBINSON:It's on that time frame I'm trying to talk about the broad focus. So there are a number of things.Both groups are supporting very strongly the submission put in by the WA Bicycle Committee which is quite a detailed summary of the cases and there's a number of things there about why the transport planning system should change. There's a risk that everyone does their planning by looking out through the rear-vision mirror at the traffic forecasts and things, all those extrapolations. So we at the Cyclists Action Group and Sustainable Transport Coalition, having seen quite a lot of things, are keen to look forward and the crucial level we think is the availability of fuel.
MS ALLAN:Just on that point, when you say most views are rear-vision, what would be an example of that?
30 MR ROBINSON: Any Main Roads traffic planner who says, "We are getting thistraffic growth, therefore we need more and more roads" or "We've gotthis traffic growth, therefore we need this," and the provision onhere, the failure to provide for electric vehicles, for bicycles, for pedestrians, for light rail.
MS ALLAN: Okay. That's their argument too, that's encapsulated aswell.
MR ROBINSON: So what I see the proposal in the WABicycle Committee and the groups that they're representing is - we're getting there.Can you plug one of these things in? Thank you.
MS ALLAN:Yes.
MR ROBINSON: So there's that.The "We'll make sure business as usual" strategy is going to be not a very successful one or not a very high probability one;that if we look at the last 50 years from the Stephenson-Hepburn Plan and extrapolate,we're going to come to some very serious problems.I'll just see how this works. Are you happy with that size?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I can see it with my glasses on.
MR ROBINSON:I went to some trouble to make that presentation butwell, we'll leave it like that.I guess you can see it.So that this is a picture of our minister speaking to the dialogue of the city thing that I participated in.That was particularly inspiring, firstly, because we have an astute and a far-sighted minister which is ararity and certainly we would like to congratulate the minister on the process of thisdialogue with the city which has evolved I think in a Network Cityis really good. That was held in the Fremantle passenger terminal, this gargantuan building designed for another purpose whichis not used for the purpose for which it was built and it very useful for straythings like antique shows and coin collectors.
MS ALLAN:It was a very good session.
MR ROBINSON:So that was particularly useful and we would like to see more of that.If we look at a plot of the passengernumbers through the Fremantle passenger terminal we notice that that big building was built just before the peak and the veryrapid decline of passenger transport through Fremantle.Are we doing the same sort of thing with our transport planning now, sitting just before a peak, not seeingthe inevitable change that's happening. So it's that line of thought about the rear-vision mirror.
If we're planning here we're planning for something like this.If we look not at the rear-vision mirror - (indistinct) Main Roads but the people do thatif we see this coming should we be doing something else. That's the point that I would like to make. We're notthe only place who built a passenger terminal.Sydney built one about the same time but they weren't predicting in this case a change to air transport. The thing that I'd like topointI'm not sure if anyone has seen these.I did show them to the West Australian Planning Commission.
31 MS ALLAN: We've seen things like this.
MR ROBINSON:We're just saying this is the factor that we should belooking for, talking about peak oil and the analogy is the hurricane analogy.It looks like there's some serious oil storms coming on the radar, although the sky isblue at the moment, and the oil storms not yet on the radar look like they're going to bebigger. We're talking about peak oil or the big rollover.It's a name for thisthis is global oil production and it's showing a thing not dissimilar from what we saw to the passenger terminal.We're not going to run out of oil. Anyone who says that's (indistinct) running short,probably relatively soon. The whole range of (indistinct) you have pessimists or optimists. The DPIis populated by optimists who say, "No worries, " because they've all got company cars anddon't pay for their petrol.
It's really crucial that the planning is considering thesescenarios in Canning Highway and other things. We must have a plan B that is businessisn't as usual, what the hell are we going to do? The probability of business being usual is farfrom certain.
Les McGoohan from the Earth Geological Survey camehere in 2001, briefed the minister at Parliament House, talked to Transcan here, it's not asifit's novel, suggesting the big rollover might happen this decade and suggesting weshould be planning for the worst and hoping for the best. In the 50-year time frame we should beconsidering these scenarios.
The preamble with the computer there is that to say don't worry,the technology will save us. Someone will invent hydrogen fuel cells or whatever the hellor snake oil, the technology is not very likely.I have been privileged to work in a boffin-rich environmentand boffins can do wonderful things but within limits.So The Guardian a couple of years ago gave a George (indistinct) as a columnist talking about the worldrunning out of oil. "Why do people (indistinct) taboo and transport planning (indistinct) civilisationdenial. Not quite right.He's talking about we're not running out of oil, we're likely to run shortof oil and it's most politicians refusing to talk about it.
The federal government has got a White Paper on energy. Thisclearly an intelligent failure that rates more substantial magnitudes than all the other onesthey have had inquires into to.It is a no worries, business as usual and very naughty in the way they usethe data. The International Energy Agency sees oil going up for the next 25 years atleast.That's also very naughty. The International EnergyAgency was set up as a counterbalance to OPEC. They're doing that very well but they're not particularly unbiased.
Our minister in the same photo was using in other places but ourminister has been talking about peak oil and said in a speech to the Hydrogen Conference,talking about 2006 (indistinct) 2015. The cost of preparing too early for peak oil, like, for instance,putting in bike lanes and pedestrian facilities on Canning Highway is nowhere near the costof not being ready on time. This is particularly far-sighted and there's a Queenslandpolitician who joined in a well.
32 To scan some books on the topic, Brian Fleaywho is one of the members, Sustainable Transport (indistinct) is a recent one.Oil and Gas Journal in the trade, New Scientist from the science people, The West, Canberra Times,(indistinct) addressed WA cabinet a year ago, gave talks here and NationalGeographic, Financial Review showing these curves - this is the ASPO with a peak in 2008. There's a whole rangeof things.
only the WA government and the I think The Australian said peak oil is running (indistinct) Sustainable Transport Coalition are acknowledgingit. The West Australian in June reprinted something from the Los Angeles Times.If Simmonds is right about the Saudi oil, we're much closer to peak than people think. The NewYork Times just before the hurricane said we could have a very long review of it, when acrisis comes, whether it's in a year or two years or 10 years, it will be all the morepainfulbecause he's talking from an American situationbecause (indistinct) nothing to prepare for it.
So the Canning Highway is the way that we canprepared for the oil hurricanes and when theoilhurricanes come, as they may well do, how are wegoing to be looked at. Geoscience Australia has got good data. This is Australia'sdecline curve. We have been relatively self-sufficient versus the world; 73 and 79 oilshots and there's whole of range of forecasts here of what's likely to happen. The first twooil shocks we were protected from by Bass Straight just come on line and depending onwhat happens here, my reckon even money is about on this one in 2010. Butthere's no-one in Australia who can sensibly say which of these estimates are right.
The International Energy Agency is the far tight of the spectrum.The Shell Co is not as plausible.So there's a whole range of things.We're having an international visitor, Prof (indistinct) from the Association of (indistinct) coming in aboutsix weeks. We tried to get him to give a presentation to the planning commissionbut I understand that wasn't accepted. One of the reasons for these things that you and thecommunity aren't aware of, if you start planning Canning Highway for peak oil thecommunity is going to say or the City of Melville are going to say you've got rocks in yourhead but some of the reasons is Australia uses a hell of a lot of oil and the people in Canberra get toParis more often than they come to Perth.
The reason for that analogy, as Prof (indistinct) pointed out,that 100 mils oil, less than this much oil, has got enough energy to carry a car to the top of theEiffel Tower. A litre of petrol will save you carrying 10 small cars up to the top of the EiffelTower. Valuable stuff and if we haven't got it (indistinct). Our oilis used in transport and if we took all of our wheat crop, which averages 17, 20 million tonnes per annum, turned into ethanolwe'd would get about 10 per cent. So we're not going to be saved by ethanol, bydiesel, sadly by bicycles or fish and chip shop oil or whatever. On the international scene we'resmall players.
33 The US is using a cubic kilometre. The reasonfor these things is to try and give people the order of magnitude. The US productionpeaked and went down. The global discoveryrate peaked and went down. This is from Exxon.So that the world has been discovering less and less oil since about 1960. There's awhole range of things. This is the North Sea, up and down, the big fields first, the littlefields.Buctiari suggested a global crunch.He's suggested on theological grounds ofasking for a number of simultaneous miracles,which is what he thought was a big ask. He also putthe minister's words in a slightly differentview: it's a hell of a good idea to get started,do the planning and preparation in advance.It's blood hard to build an ark underwater.
There's a whole lot of myths that people will say,the federal government, 40 years at current production rate. That's plausible but ifthis sort of decline curve is far more realistic, wecan't produce 40 years at a flat rate.In year 41 you have got nothing left.We can't use it up that Whose proven quickly.It's much more likelyand the other problem is the audit reliability. reserves do we believe andthere's a whole lot of Enron type thingsfloating around. (indistinct) bore you with Mexico. Forinstance, their proven reserve changed from 50 to28 to 12 gigabarrels.The Saudis went the other way in themid eighties.Their proven reserves went from there tothere.
These are not sensible numbers. One ofthese must be wrong because they didn't discover any oil at that time. TheShell Co got into trouble - lost their CEOthrough having slashed their reserves.Matt Simmonds, who I hope would cometo WA sometime, adviser to presidents (indistinct) from the oil industry, veryserious, Houston, right wing end of town (indistinct). The facts are very serious and he'sthe one who suggested we should have a plan B.He wrote this book Twilight in the Desertcasting doubt on the Saudis, saying, "I think they've only got half as much oil asthey're claiming."
The Saudis have said they've got oil forthe next 50 years.Should we be believing the Saudis of Matt Simmonds, I don't know. I've metMatt Simmonds. He certainly seems to be very competent.I'm unfamiliar with the Saudis, Ican't tell, so I think we should be having sort of two-bob each way.If the Saudis are right, that's great.If they are wrong, we're in trouble. This is the ASPO curves. This is oilin general. The green is oil from natural gas. This is natural gas. This is the world on top.We're not going to be saved by natural gas, so these are some sort of forecasts ofpeaks in the next five or 10 years. The globalnatural gas supply or hydrocarbonsis also to go down. So people who say,"We've got squillions of natural gas, no worries," are also far fromcorrect.
The Australian Petroleum ProductionExploration Association APPEA - had a big conference in the Convention Centre in April.Eric (indistinct), a local oil producer from up near Dongara, ran a strawpoll of 1700 of Australia's oil industry executivesand geologists and things. "How many people thing we'reabout at the peak and how many don't." He also offered some advice to people who didn't have anopinion about making decisions, but that's actually quite useful. Now, half the peoplething we're about - half the oil people who put up their hands thing we're close to this peak; halfthink it's not true and another substantial proportion aren't sure and that's probably anoverall sort of sensible summary of what is the situation.
34 If this forecast is true, this demand and trend keeps on going, then we've got some verybig gaps and that gap globally in 25 years, which isthe time frame we're talking about, is equivalent, energy equivalent, to some 6000 nuclear reactors and growing at500 nuclear reactors a year.But the world has only got 440 at the moment, so to make another 500 nuclear reactors' worth of energy is a big ask. This is a very quick run through.Obviously there's a number of things that the gap is likely to be filled because the economistsslapped me over the wrist and said demand and supply must beequal. So I had to rename some of these. So there's (indistinct) Travel Smart and (indistinct) city design andlifestyle things.
This is a slow-moving thing. Some of these things, Travel Smart and followingMargaret Thatcher putting the prices up are things that can move quickly. Changing the shape ofthe city is a slow-moving variable but important. There's almost sure to be no magicbullet to the oil prices but the replacement for cheap oil is almost sure to be more expensiveand less plentiful oil. We won't be saved by hydrogen and all these other things one hearsabout. The minister's suggestion that preparing in advance is very cost-effective.
The US department of energy had a (indistinct) looking at all the alternatives(indistinct) oil recovery and coal liquids and more efficientvehicles and these things and they said you must have a crash program a (indistinct) Manhattan project started one or twodecades before the peak and these things must be started.The same thing applies to reshaping things like Canning Highway.
You can't wait until we're running short of oil to make these changes.If you use the hurricane analogy that governments aren't expected to fix hurricanes; they're expected to warn, they're expected to do long-term plannings and setstandards and the things we're talking about here.In the short -term trying to fix up the consequences. Peak oil is going to be a natural phenomenon too and should we be reducing the fuel taxes and narrowing the reserves or should we be working on the levee banks and the leveebanks we're talking about here is leaving enough room on the highway to do these other things.
David Rice is a member of the Sustainable Transport Coalition.He's a senior transport planner and when the City of Perth; the planning (indistinct) in previous generations was called Future Perth, there was a debate about fuel prices and how it goes into the models and the computer models said we can't put peak oil into the modelthe computers won't handle it.So he came up with the $10 a litre.That's very useful because it's simple, it's memorable and it's not just a price rise, it's something different, and what will happen if fuel is $10 a litre and how would the Canning Highway reservation fit into that.
35 If we look at the Canberra fire storms, for instance, they took out 400 houses onthe edge. There had been predictions, people had said we should get going and no-onehad done anything. The risks weren't commonly known. No-one took any preventative actionand this is the fire storms encroaching on the outer bits of suburbs of Canberra.This is the Canberra suburbs.If we look at what $10 a litre would do the Perth Metropolitan Region Scheme it might not just (indistinct) the outer row of housing, the outermostsuburbs, the outer rows of houses. So $10 a litre is going to have a big impact onplanning and Perth, if it happens and it's quite likely to happen.
So the people in the outer suburbs, we're actually looking at this bit butit's also going to have an impact here. So this is the question. Should we be planning just forbusiness as usual or should we be planning for the future? These are the forecasts.In conclusion, we should be talking about oil depletion and the WA Cycling Committee'ssubmission mentions that as one of the reasons for the detailed things it put forward. A lot ofopportunitiesand a lot of the things planning for peoplewould lead to better economic opportunities, the activity corridor and the Network City, for instance, and healthier and happiercommunities.
At the moment we've got an epidemic of obesity, childhood obesity, becausethe system is planned so that kids can no longeror parents no longer (indistinct) to walk or ride bikes to school. Here's a picture of two of our kids and the neighbours' skipping to school 20 years ago when they were littler.If Canning Highway were designed so it was pedestrian and bicycle friendly, not only are we looking at peak oil things but were looking at muchhealthier things.Instead of obese kids being taken to school in very big gas guzzling four-wheel drives, kids who skip to school or ride a bike are much better.So that the peak oil suggestion is not all doom and gloom and a lot of Canning Highway - for instance,it was perhaps a much nicer place in the fifties.
WA is in a very good position here.We've got things like the West Australian Planning Commission, we've got a lot of awareness of oil depletion and the minister has been briefed about itfor five years or thereabouts more Brian Fleay. There's a lot of demand management skills which are outside the scope of this. Travel Smart has been reducing car usage in Perth by 13 per cent. There's a lot of gas that wecould put - and we have got the advantage of this process, the Network City, and a very informed and astute minister. None of these things are in other states and if we don't act now, if we continued with this sort of proposal of shutting out pedestrians and cyclists it's going to be very sad.
This is a cartoon from Victoria about the transport planners who can't imagine anything except a car-shaped world. We need a vehicle that's inexpensive, doesn't eat resources, easy toyou're dreaming; in the past.Bicycles are powered by Weetbix and beer guts and there's no shortage of those.I could go on for ages but thank you for listening to that bit. Then Iwill come back to the detailed proposals that the WA Bicycle Committee might tell you more about. But the proposal just was to consider cyclists andpedestrians and light rail and none of those are in this.
36 We heard in a similar debate on StirlingHighway in the Claremont Council, the Claremont Council refused to put a bike lane in StirlingHighway because they thought it was risky and the risk was that Main Roads were scared thatthey would get sued if they put a bike lane, because if a kid gets killed by a car in asuburban street it's not on Main Roads' books. They put a white line down. So the risk was not tothe community or the kids or whatever.
They were prepared for the kids to haveproblems with (indistinct), so that this is being played out.
We're just suggesting there be a decent forpeople, for kids on bikes, people in electric Gofers and things.Currently the footpaths along major highways arefull of bloody bus stop signs and things. You can barely get along mosthighways because of the street furniture. People say, "You know, there's three metres,"but there's a 2.8 metre bloody bus shelter there and you've got to be an expert on theslalom in your Gofer and that's hard for elderly people or kids on bikes. So there should be adecent functional footpath.If you're going to have the street furniture: this is the streetfurniture and this is three metres or whatever it is for the cyclists and pedestrians and kids onbikes.Also for the cyclists who are actually going to work and, you know, I'm in my sixties butgiven a sea breeze and a slight incline on Stirling Highway Ican get to 40, 50 kilometres anhour and you don't want the serious cyclists mixed with little kids on bikes and little oldladies with their frames.
So any forward planning scenarios we're talkingabout a decent on-road bicycle facility and a decent off-road facility sharedwith pedestrians and Gofers and cyclists.It's crucial.In the Sustainable Transport Coalition provision for lightrail, back to either trolley buses or trams or whatever.If we're planning for the future rather thanand there's 80 metres of reserve there.The WA cycling Committee are agreeing thatthe reserve should be narrowed, narrowed to allow these sorts of things andit would be really criminal to throw away that reserve and come back in thosesort of time frames of five or 10 years saying wewant someone to put a light rail in CanningHighway, where's the room.
CLR GRAHAM: Bruce, ifI can just ask a question about the differencebetween on on- road and an off-road facility for a cyclist.
MR ROBINSON: Yes.
CLR GRAHAM: Does either of the two groups that you'rerepresenting today have a preference in terms of what type of on-road facility to have?Say, for example, you can have one that's separated through somesort of hump or something between thecyclist is and where the road is and you can have one that isn't.
MR ROBINSON:Well, the ones the WA Cycling Committee put up as abike lane, which his like continuous pavement with a solid white lineand, yes, you can have kerbs and things but the advantage of the white line is, firstly, thatwell, there's another there on Canning Highway now.Cyclists share the lane and it's meant to be a little bitwider but in fact if there's a white line there, then it moves the cars and heavyvehicles - shows them the track.
37 There's evidence from Main Roads that lines help guide vehicles. Whenthere's not a cyclist there there's a screech of brakes, a hit, you know, someone can gointo the bike lane in an emergency for instance if there's nothe kerbs decrease the flexibility, so the on-road - the proposal of the WA Cycling Committee, an on-road bike lane andthey're suggesting 1.8 metres which is the sort of thing that electric Gofers and things could use.But, yes, the on- road facilities, the painted white line bike lane is quite good.
CLR GRAHAM:So that's distinct from, say, if you take Murray Street east of the Murray Street mall.
MR ROBINSON:That one is a bit unusual because it's actually a contra-flow lane and so Murray Street is one way and they reversed it or whatever.Otherwise you've got people separated by a white line going - so it was making that one a littlebit more clear.
CLR GRAHAM:I asked that question because that obviously has an impact upon thewidth of the reservation dedicated for cyclists' use. You know, what typeof design you have.
MR ROBINSON: Yes.I guess with the long-term time frame the WA Cycling Committeeis suggesting provision ofwe're talking about the reserve. Whether there's a light rail or, you know -if you look at the demographic trends and the technologicaltrends there's an increasing number of people with little clever electric scooter things and youcould have a whole range of vehicles like that, from sort of smart cars and smaller ones.So, you know, provision and space for those sort of vehicles would be useful. So the 1.8bike lane could be turned into a micro vehicle lane. There's a range of scenarios.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:If, for example, there was a bike lane created, whether it be 1.8 or 1.5, how critical is it that the width is uniform. For example, if it came to,like, a pinch point, is that an issue ifit narrowed in places just to accommodate the fact that there are existing constraints? Is it really critical that it has to be that uniform width?
MR ROBINSON:Certainly anything is better than nothing and I complained to Main Roads when they put in a 1.2 metre bike lane in Servetus Street in the westernsuburbs and I said that wasn't - whatever - and they offered to take it out, which sort of shut me up.I guess I was interested in planning time frames and ifthere's a squeeze point, for a single person on a bike or an experienced urban rider like myselfbut if it's someone's grandma in a little electric vehicle, then it might start to be awkward.I guess I was talking in the broader sense and the broader thing isbecause the reserve is currently 80 metres or whatever the width of the felt pen was in 1950 or - - -
CLR GRAHAM: 63.
38 MR ROBINSON: 63 the felt pens werebut, you know, to squeeze it down to try and - you know, we heard people talk about this in terms of cultural heritage and social and all these things but the health of kids and (indistinct) seem to take precedence over someone's verandah or something or other, given that most of the housing will be knocked down in sort of the order of 20 years anyway and the current turnover of houses in those sort of places. But, yes, in the long-term.
MS ALLAN:Bruce, did that conclude what you wanted to say?
MR ROBINSON:I think so. Yes, I think I've had a pretty fair go. One could talk about the details but both groups were endorsing strongly what the WA Cycling Committee had put up and the details (indistinct) but just as a broader aspect.
MS ALLAN:I might just ask a question from that submission then.In the back and it is a matter of detailthey talk about the preferred laneway widths and so on. Could we just go over this.
MR ROBINSON: Where did that diagram come from?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I think someone has drawn it up.
MR KLEIDON:I got it drawn up from the description in here and there's a couple of options that have been drawn there.The WA Cycling Committee submission is illustrated on the
MR ROBINSON:I haven't seen that diagram.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: We thought it may be easier for us to look at it.
MR ROBINSON: Yes, sure.
MS ALLAN:I might just show you the - - -
MR ROBINSON:I think I've got the numbers here.
MS ALLAN: You've got the numbers there. Is that all right?
MR ROBINSON: Yes.
MS ALLAN: Do you want to elaborate or could you just help me out anyway on any comments you would like to make on that.
MR ROBINSON:This is sort of a - if we're talking for the future, which is the theme of the thing.
MS ALLAN: Yes, forward-looking rather than -
39 MR ROBINSON: Forwardthen this is the sort of thing - certainly from the cycling point of view the bus lanes are not essential but from the Sustainable Transport Coalition'spoint of view the reservation for bus lanes or light rail is equally important, so that there's those
things and the provision for a decent footpath. I mean, in the Stirling Highway debate people are saying, "Oh, we need room for trees."Main Roads and the council agree we need lots of trees down Stirling Highway.
It's a very sirnilar network of activity corridor and, you know, if you're going to put treesand things there and whatever, then you need a bit more room as well.So whether people choose flower beds or street cafes or whatever but if we haven't got the room, and currently there is not the room for elderly people, for kids on bikes.It's all very well to say, you know, "Gee, grandma, are you going to take your grandkids out for a ride on CanningHighway on bikes," and so self-respecting grandma would be in that. So we can ride along the shared path alongside Canning Highway to get from the shops and up to your place to meet you or whatever. These sorts of things are crucial.
MS ALLAN:All right.Just on that point, what are the options both for commuters - you know, if they didn't want to use Canning Highway but wanted to travel in thatgeneral east- west direction.
MR ROBINSON:Back to an activity corridor. An activity corridor, if you want to go from one set of shops to another or, you know, from the realestate agent or whatever, then the activity corridors on the Network City plan don't have deviations via Fremantle.I'm more familiar with Stirling Highway but if Canning Highway grows as it is likely to, then it's along the corridor.Yes, there are alternatives and Main Roads say, "You can always go via somewhere else."
MS ALLAN:Sorry, I'm not clear myself.I live north of the river, to be honest with you, and I'm not clear where you will sayI would like to know from you where the current
MR ROBINSON: There are some alternatives to the current very poor situation.
MS ALLAN: Commuter and recreation.
MR ROBINSON: There's no sensible longitudinal one that isn't very zig-zagging.
MS ALLAN: Okay. So for a commuter there's no direct route.
MR ROBINSON:Yes. The other problem is if you go throughthe reason that these sort of highways are generally safer is there's less intersections, there's controlled access and things like that.So if cyclist go through here under, you know, 40, 50 kilometres an hour, which is your going to work speed if you've got a tail wind, then these routes are very unsafe. You're much safer on the main route.
MS ALLAN:All right. And with recreational cyclists?
40 MR ROBINSON:It just depends how you define recreational cyclists.I have an objection to that term because all cycling is recreational.I caught the train in here but had I ridden my bike I would have been doing it for recreation and transport.I don't wear lycra, so I define cycling as a transport mode but,I mean, it is very fashionable.If you look at European cycling as an example I don't thinkI lookifI was going to be a ballet dancer perhaps I should have started earlier.
If you look at European type things and the majority of transport,bicycle use is largely transport, if people are going to a cafe or whatever. So in planning for cars wedon't say, "These people are going for a Sunday drive," when in the past people used to gofor a Sunday drive up in the hills.So there are routes for people who want to go round the river but we're talking about an activity corridor and if you want to ride to thenewsagent whatever lives in a and go down there and visit like, I go along there and visit my uncle who retirement village.
The recreational thing, people say, "Yeah, there's lot of token cyclepaths"usually in some other municipality"why don't you go and ride somewhere else."That's the Main Roads attitude. They want people off the road and out of the road and go away.
MS ALLAN: I'm just thinking about the hearing now because we are dealing with the current mentality.I do use the phrase recreational but what should I be using.
MR ROBINSON: That's a common one. I'm just making the point.
MS ALLAN:I hear what you're saying.
MR ROBINSON: But there's a continuum.
MS ALLAN:Is there a different point?I mean, is there a different phrase?
MR ROBINSON:No, that's a common one. It's also like the debate about on-road facilities and shared path facilities. Any individual cyclist might choose to use the high speed route at some stage or the path route.
For instance, if you're going to a shop here and a shop here and it's on the other sideof the road you might say, "Well, I'll ride two blocks along the path slowly rather thancrossing six lanes," or whatever. So it's like people in cars; the trip purpose and the mode varies with the individual trip.
CLR GRAHAM: This is a somewhat academic question but you're asking us to see the world in a certain way and this will help me to understand to see it that way.Prior to cars being around the bicycle existed as an invention that people could use. So did they use it then and if we were to not have cars in the future, and we can learn from history, is that something that we would trend towards?
41 MR ROBINSON: Yes.Certainly cars and bicycles, in Europe, for instance, co-exist in different proportions than they do here. I don't think anyone is forecasting that cars are going to be extinct but we might be going back towards morein the 1950s I rode across Canning Highway to go to school and the ratio of kids riding toschool and things. There were things on the news wire services recentlysaying that people in the US have started buying bikes from the gasoline shortage. So certainly I would predict andin my advocate role hope for a move towards - you know, if you go to a railway stationin Holland or German or whatever many more people arriveat the railway station by bicycle than by car. Historically of course before the car or at the time of the cars thenpeople swappedthere's an interesting book called The Bicycle In TheBush, a PhD thesis at ANU, that the shearers when they used to go round Australia, bronze shearers on horseback, as soon asthere were bikes there they all travelled on bikesbecause they arrived at the next thing and they threw their bike on the wall of the shearing shed and didn't have tobloody feed it and whatever. But that wasn't well-known.
The technology for bikesI mean, my sort of relatively ordinary city bike has got 27 gears and it all works really well and there's all sorts of LED lights and things.The technology for bikes is improving dramatically as well. So I would see a shift towardsthe order of, say, 30 per cent of trips by bike, rather than four or five or whateveritis now, within these time frames, quite practically, if there are facilities.
CLR GRAHAM: Okay. Thanks.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Bruce; this is again a bit more detail but I just wonder if you could tell me, the traffic lanes are shown at 3.5 metres wide on the proposed orsuggested 42.2, whereas originally you were looking at 3.3.Is that as a general (indistinct) to get more room on the roadway to use the reserve or is there aspecific reason why you believe the traffic lanes should be wider than 3.3?
MR ROBINSON:I'm not sure why that - but we're planning
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: That's fine.I just wondered if you had any -
MR ROBINSON: The 3.3 is the sort of -I mean, you can have lane widths at 2.9 in Sydney or something or other but I thought we were planning for a lotof eventualities and the trucks and buses and things are getting bigger, so to design for the lowest common denominator seems to be not a good strategy in this time frame.
MS ALLAN: Just a related question, it's mentioned there and you might not be able to answer it or talk to the committee about it but you mention a cyclelane of 1.8 metres wide. Is that your- -
42 MR ROBINSON:The WA Cycling Committee has recommended that, sothat it depends on the speeds and the volumes, socertainly there are tendencies to have very narrow bicycle lanes, 1.2, 1.5. The Oz Road standards, that wasin the mid point of the Oz Road standards and so from Main Roads' point of view it seemsextravagant but they have got a windscreen shaped view of the world.If there's a little old lady with a tricyclethere's not very common now but theyshould be, so people with balance problems (indistinct)and, you know, there's dodging grates and things.So 1.8 is not extravagant.If that space is not used for that purpose in 30 years it can be usedfor some other purpose, there's the flexibility there.These sort of things are all constraining things to thebarest minimum acceptable now to anyone with a company car and therest of the people can - 46 per cent of the people in WA don't have licences. That'splanned for the car drivers. You've heard these stories before.
CLR GRAHAM:I haven't heard that before.
MR ROBINSON: Don't encourage me.
MS ALLAN:I think, unless Susan or Richard have any questions,we've covered both the Sustainable Transport Coalition and the Cyclists ActionGroup.
MR ROBINSON:There is a lot ofthe minister and the dialogue of the city process has been particularly encouraging and I would hope thatin the future we would have a dialogue with peopleor a dialogue with (indistinct).
MS ALLAN: No, that's terrific. I think we have got a good idea of what you're saying. Essentially one of your thesis' is that you support the viewthat this roadway should be for shared use of these modes of transport.
MR ROBINSON: Yes. The WA Bicycle Committee is recommending 43 metres, approximately halving the existing reserve.
MS ALLAN: Thank you very much for coming in. Weappreciate the effort you have taken.
MR ROBINSON: Thank you for the opportunity.
43 MR FINBARR DONNAN
MS ALLAN: Finbarr, we're the hearings committee.We've been appointed by the Commission. You've probably heard that but we wouldjust like to introduce ourselves to you so you know who you'retalking to.We will give you 15 minutes to make your presentation and, if it's all right with you, as anyquestions for clarification that we might have.It shouldn't be too onerous I hope. My nameis Verity Allan and I'm the chairman of the committee. I'm on a number of WestAustralian Planning Commission committees. To my left is transport engineer,Susan Kreemer-Pickford and to my right isCouncillor Richard Graham.
MR DONNAN:As well as Alan Kleidon.
MS ALLAN:You've met obviously.
MR DONNAN:We haven't met, we've talked on the phone.
MS ALLAN: Yes. We've read your submission and wheneveryou're ready to start we would like to hear you.
the MR DONNAN: First of all Ithink it would be beneficial in the future if maybe all information is available on-line, because I actuallywork in the Swan Valley, so I can't get into the city or Fremantle between 9.00 to5.00 and the only information I was able to get was, like, Alan kindly (indistinct)just the sort of plan or whatever.
MR KLEIDON:It was the (indistinct) concept plan.
MR DONNAN: Yes, and Ididn't even have any, like, access to the rest of theplan or whatever.
MS ALLAN: Yes, and that would have been a better scale thanthis report.Have you received that report, the amendment report? This onlyhad the scale
isolated picture of my sort of MR DONNAN: I got that report, yes, but this is just like an street or whatever. The whole plan, I didn't have accessto that. Just in future if we could is it possible to have that?
MS ALLAN: Yes. The whole plan is in the report but the largerscale is not shown, so it would be useful.We are moving towards a better electronic coverageof everything, mapping and reports and we will have to see if it isfeasible.I'm not too sure if it is.We'll take that on board, Alan will note it.
MR DONNAN:Alan, kindlyas I say, Alan has been prettygood. He's tried to give me as much information as possible.
44 MS ALLAN:Just on that point, were the plans onhave they been on display anywhere yet, Alan.
MR KLEIDON:They have been on display. They have been typicallythese A3 size; have been on display at our front counter, at the counciloffices, but for someone who can't get there during business hours it is difficult.I have in the past attempted to emailin these ones, for the first time I've actuallyattempted to email these concept plans to people but they're about four or five or 10 megs of drawing, soit becomes impossible.
MS ALLAN:I think the answer, as you're saying, on a Website or even in a local library, so there's after-hours access.
MR DONNAN: The local library in Fremantle is not -well, unless it's open after- -
MS ALLAN: Yes.That's why they're usually favoured venues for displayof plans or the tabling of plans, because they're available after officehours.
MR DONNAN: Some of my submission is probably due to ignoranceof what's the grand scheme of things. Just in the book here it's said, "Theplanning study indicates that existing traffic volumes on this section of Canning Highway areunlikely to change significantly over the next 20 years but sections of the highwaywill continue to experience significant traffic congestion and crash rates."
I agree that we probably need to have right-turnlanes just to sort of protect traffic turning right.I feel that this will probably ease the traffic congestionbut where it affects me most, or my property, is that there's a queuejump lane for the bus and I just want to ask how much travel time would be saved with this proposed bus queuejump.Has anybody done any studies on that?
MR KLEIDON:I'm not aware of there being a specific estimate done of the buslaneof the bus queue jump facility that's at your location.When I have followed the issue up the answer I've got is it's actually not the singlebus queue jump lane that we're interested in for the travel time, it's the cumulative effect along theroute of multiple queue jumps that's actually significant.
MR DONNAN: Okay. That's again because I've only got anisolated picture or whatever.
MR KLEIDON: That's fine.
MR DONNAN: The bus is still going to have to stop at traffic lights there andwith there being two lanes now, for a bus and for the cars, like, the cars aregoing to have a longer time at the traffic lights than the bus, So Ican't see how you're going to get any saving in time for the bus really. You've got two - like, you've got a - - -
MS ALLAN:It's a proposal, isn't it?Is that correct, Alan?
45 MR DONNAN: You've got a traffic light for the bus and another traffic light for the
MR KLEIDON:Okay. The way the road geometry has been drawn is that when there is a queue at the traffic lights it permits the bus to move in the left-hand lane past thetraffic queue and up to the traffic signals. There is then an option.Either the buses can get a green light in advance of the rest of the motorised traffic getting a green light,and thereby get an advantage, or you can give them all the green light at the same time and then following the intersection there's a merge back in that's required.
MR DONNAN:All right. Also I would be interested to what's happening at the Stock Road intersection and North Lake Road because Ididn't have those details either. I don't think there's any queue jump lanes according to this book here at those intersections.
MR KLEIDON: Too small a scale to see on anything in that book.
MS ALLAN:Is it on those plans over there.
MR KLEIDON:Yes, on these plans. Yes, both Stock Road and North Lake Road have a similar bus queue jump lane proposal on them.
MR DONNAN:It's just that in this here it just says, "Bus queue jump lanes are the Petra Street and Carrington Street intersections with Canning Highway and dedicated bus lanes between Riseley Street and Canning Bridge." There's no mention - -
MR KLEIDON:It's an omission in that report.
MR DONNAN: So that again I don't have the information at hand to - - -
MR KLEIDON: No, that's fine.
MR DONNAN: I just found it very hard to work out what was happening with this plan. With this queue jump lane you're effecting making the carriageway into a six lane sort of highway in certain spots.I just wanted to find out how that would affect road safety; people crossing the road.Ideally you want people to cross at the traffic lights but we're all human and we all tend to take the shortest route and go straight across the road, so how is that going to affect road safety with a six lane highway.
MR KLEIDON:Additional lanes without a doubt creates more time that's required to get across.It mayyes, there are a number of effects there and they are compromised. What I can think of is additional lanes creates a longer crossing time.Yes, no doubt about it. Whether you do or don't have the situation at the moment, different lanes running at potentially different speeds, although I would expect the speeds to be pretty low, can potentially have an effect of pedestrians walking through traffic as they do in some places. Yes, it can have an effect.
46 MR DONNAN:Okay, that's fine.It's just that at thesort of where this queue jump lane there is a supermarket right in the middle and people aregoing to come out, see the bus opposite and they need to run for the bus and shoot out onto the road. With myproperty on its own, the proposal is to take 111 square metres off my property.The diagram pictures it as a 1200 square metre block but infact I've only got a 568 square metre block, which means that approximately 20 per cent of myproperty is going to be lost to this.
CLR GRAHAM: Why is there that discrepancy?
MR DONNAN:It has been a subdivided block.
CLR GRAHAM: Perhaps you don't know the answer to that.
MR DONNAN: Yes, I don't know.
CLR GRAHAM: So that figure that you've given us, the 500 and something,where has that come from?
MR DONNAN: That's from when we bought the property.
MS ALLAN: When was that?
MR DONNAN: Last year.
MR KLEIDON:I can offer clarification there. The property as was drawn on thecadastral mapping is the whole property which has been divided into two strata units.
MS ALLAN: So you're on the north side of the property?
MR DONNAN:I'm not too sure whether it's north, south.
MS ALLAN: You're on the Canning Highway side of the property?
MR DONNAN: Yes.
MS ALLAN: And your strata title neighbour is to the rear of you?
MR DONNAN: Yes.I think there's two to the rear.
MS ALLAN: Two the rear, is there?
MR DONNAN:I think it's two.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: That 413 here.
47 MS ALLAN:Ours might be out of date this aerial photograph because it doesn'tshow the property being strata titled in the way that you have mentioned.Are there two other - - -
MR DONNAN:There are two other houses at theso they look the same, so obviously I think they're
MS ALLAN:Right, we will just check that out.
MR DONNAN:I'm just saying do you think 20 per cent off somebody's property is afair proportion to take off?
MS ALLAN:Your lot is 500 and
MR DONNAN: 68.
MS ALLAN: 68.
MR DONNAN:The other two blocks won't be affected at all.The 111 proposed square metres that's going to be taken off is going to come off myproperty.
MS ALLAN: Allright.
MR DONNAN: Sofor maybe purely selfish reasons I don't want that to happen. Firstof all it's going to mean I've got a smaller block size and that's going to affectthe resale value of my property.I know you get compensation but the compensation will never matchwhat you have loss. Also with that loss of property the house is actuallygoing to be a lot closer to the road. We're going to be a lot closer to noise pollution, we're also going tobe a lot closer to the fumes, so you've got sort of health aspects there as well.
The way I see it Canning Highway is purely - well, virtually a residential area.You've got all the houses along Canning Highway and you've got all the streets adjoiningthat. So I think the long-term solution shouldn't be directed at modifying Canning Highway toomuch but just
trying to divert the traffic from Perth to Fremantle on an alternative route. I don't know if there's any plans for that.
MR KLEIDON:Not on the drawing board at this stage, unless you count things like Leach Highway which is the next route down.
MS ALLAN: Yes, that's a good point. I think the mode share shift,isn't there, the encouragement generally of more public transport or alternative transport options.
MR DONNAN: I feel like - okay, the right-hand turn lanes will take the traffic off one lane, so the traffic should flow a lot freer that way and ifthere's no potential or perceived increase
in traffic volume in the next 20 years, I think a lot of the changes will probably be unnecessary.
48 MS ALLAN:I think the report indicates there are expected increasesin volume.
MR DONNAN: No, it actually says decrease.
MS ALLAN: Does it?
MR DONNAN: Yes.
MR KLEIDON: My recollection is that the trafficvolumes did not have substantial changes in the analysis that was done.
MR DONNAN:This says here, "Unlike to change over the next 20 years.Estimated traffic volumes 98-99 23,000 vehicles per day. Estimated long-termtraffic volume 2021 20,000," so that's a decrease.
MS ALLAN:Unlikely to change, you're right, yes. Well, it's about the same.
MR DONNAN:If the right-hand turn lanes take the traffic out of one lane, thenthe traffic should flow a lot freer. My last point is that even though maybe someonedidn't reply to the proposal doesn't automatically mean that they have accepted what theamendments are. A lot of people may not have replied because they're rental property,they're elderly, they mightn't want to get involved or they may be too daunted by the whole process.I feel like a more simple questionnaire to the residentswould probably give a better indication of whether this proposal has got good support or not.
MS ALLAN: That's a good point.
MR DONNAN: That's pretty much allI had say.
MS ALLAN: Are there any questionSusan?
MR DONNAN: Just finally, access to information very
MS ALLAN:Problematic, yes.
MR DONNAN: Yes, very difficult.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I just wanted to maybe clarify with Alan, this is lot 413,
MR DONNAN: Again that is
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: The one that we're looking at.
MR DONNAN: On my title I'm lot number 414. On this here it's 413, so that's another - - -
49 because I'm MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Okay.That's what I'm just trying to clarify looking at this one which is 413, soit's 414.
MR DONNAN: 414. We're right onthe corner.
MR KLEIDON: 414. You'reright on the corner of Canning Highway.
MR DONNAN: This says 413, soagain the information isn't
The other thing MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: That'sjust what I was wanting to understand. question for you I just wanted to understand was theblue line - Alan, it's probably more a of the that is drawn in front of properties414 and 413.Is that actually the implementation bus queue jump lane or is that not morethe facilitation of the left turn intoCarrington Street?
MR KLEIDON: That lane doesboth jobs.
but go straight forward MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Right. So the bus will go into that lane and people can peel off and turn tothe left?
MR KLEIDON: Yes.
that's a separate MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:It's just hard to tell at that scale. Okay, so lane going ahead and one turningleft. Thank you.
MR DONNAN: So the footpath then would start fivemetres in from that and then there's also a large chunk taken off of the corner.We actually live on a very quiet street.I don't know why such a chunk has to be takenoff the corner. The street doesn't lead onto any major road. The volume of trafficis verythere's only about 20 houses on the street.It doesn't lead to anywhere.
understandable but why Hannibal is a MS ALLAN:Yes.It's larger on Carrington and that's good question we would need to poseourselves Ithink.Our apologies.I was actually looking at 413, so that's why I said thehouse - the plan looked out of date ifthat's the case but now I -
MR DONNAN: Yes.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Now Iknow were on 414.
MR DONNAN: Again the information matterI receive isn't -
MS ALLAN:At least we've clarified that now and I'mglad we did so that we're under no so we'll take that on board.That makes a significant difference.
50 MR DONNAN:Just with the fact that there's no mention of the queue jump lanes in this too for Stock Road and North Lake Road. Maybe that will affect people who haven't replied as well to these proposals.
MS ALLAN: Yes, I think I will note that.As Isaid, with regard to the process itself, I understand your concerns about that.We can only take that on board.As Isaid, the department and the commission is moving to more electronic plans et cetera.With this issue we try to display plans inlocal librariesin order for people who work full-time elsewhere to get access to them, as well at from 9.00 to 5.00 or 8.30 to 5.00 in a government office. So that's unfortunate that you weren't able to access those plans but it sounds like Alan was able to help you.
MR DONNAN: Yes.I just got the isolated plan. I didn't get the whole grand scheme of things and that would have been too much to ask Alan to provide.
MS ALLAN:Yes. But together they make the story, don't they, is what you're saying.
MR DONNAN:Yes, And especially with the informationlike, there's only one queue jump lane in the whole because this wasn't telling me there were any other and I'm going, "Why
CLR GRAHAM:"Why me?"
MR DONNAN:Yes, exactly.
CLR GRAHAM:Can I ask a question?
MR DONNAN:Yes.
CLR GRAHAM: In your experience during peak hour traffic, for traffic heading west towards the coast, how far banked up is the traffic generally from the traffic lights at Carrington Street?
MR DONNAN:I'd say 10 cars.
CLR GRAHAM: Toin front of your house or - - -
MR DONNAN: Well, probably - yes, most people can still turn off into Hannibal Street. Like, anybody using Canning Highway has sort ofmost of the traffic has already left, you know, they have gone Applecross or
CLR GRAHAM:That's how they get to
51 MR DONNAN: Yes. So there are alternativeroutes. There are three major routes, Stirling Highway, Canning Highway and Leach Highway, toFremantle. So basically anybody going to Fremantle has - you have got one in threechoice to get to Fremantle and it all depends where your staffing destination is.So Ifeel that by the time the traffic gets to - like, just around Carrington Street there's not a major,major issue, like, I've never seen any tail- backs halfway down the hill or anything.
CLR GRAHAM: Okay, thanks.
MR DONNAN:But again I'm not there at peak hour traffic as wellbecauseI work 9.00 to 5.00 but I've never seen any traffic tailed rightback. You probably need to speak to the bus driver, ask him, but he would probably go for the queuejump lanes.
MS ALLAN: Just on that, is there a bus stopwhere is it?
MR DONNAN: The next bus stopthere's one about here and then the next one is up near the supermarket.
MS ALLAN: So not in your street block.
MR DONNAN: No.
MS ALLAN:All right.Well, look, that's fantastic, so thanks very much forcoming in today. It has helped us very much in a number of ways and wereally appreciate you coming in and spending the time to talk to us.
MR DONNAN: Thanks for letting me.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Thank you.
MS ALLAN: Thanks very much.
MR DONNAN: Thanks, Alan, for all the information too.
MR KLEIDON: Thank you.
MS ALLAN: Finbarr, the process from here, we'll make our recommendationto the commission later this month and then the commissionwill make its determination which will go to the minister and that processwill take until the end of the year.So whatever amendment is made to the Metropolitan Region Schemewould be done through parliament. So we're looking until about May of next year for adetermination.
MR DONNAN:Okay. Do you think there will be another questionnaire goout to - like, a more simplified questionnaire to theresidents along the road, because a lot of people - you know, it just might be too daunting for them to go throughthe whole process.
52 MS ALLAN:This is the opportunity for those people to have their take.I take on board what you're saying.Sometimes local authorities will participate and actuallystimulate discussion within the local community too in their own way, sothat can happen but Idon't think it did in this case. So, you know, this is theopportunity.
MR DONNAN:I mean, just with that book as well, if there's information wrongin that book about Stock Road and North Lake, people look at thatand go, "It doesn't affect me," and they might not reply as well.
MS ALLAN: Yes. No, point taken. Thanks.
MR DONNAN: Thanks for that.
53 MR NOEL EDDINGTON Representing the Cycle Touring Association
MS ALLAN: Come down and talk to use down here. It's Noel, is it?
MR EDDINGTON: That's right.
MS ALLAN:Hello.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Hello.
MS ALLAN: Noel, we're the hearings committee appointed by the West Australian Planning Commission to the hearings panel, to the hearings committee. My nameis Verity Allan and I'm a member of the statutory planning committee and other committeesof the commission. Susan Kreemer-Pickford is on my left and Councillor Richard Graham is on my right. You might have met, Alan?
MR EDDINGTON: No, I haven't. Hello, Alan.
MR KLEIDON: Alan Kleidon.
MS ALLAN: Alan Kleidon is helping us today.
MR EDDINGTON: Yes, very good.
MS ALLAN: We have got your submission here and we're happy to hear from you whenever you'd like to start.
MR EDDINGTON:All right. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to the public hearing on the proposed amendment number 1100/33, beingCanning Highway between Petra Street and Canning Bridge.Hello, my name is Noel Eddington and I'm the president of the Cycle Touring Association of WA.I therefore represent the 168 members of this club but feel what I say also represents the views of the wider cycling community who have met for rides in this city of Perth.
Perth is one of the most car-dependent cities in the world.I don't think that it is something to be proud of and from what Iread the government and the West Australian Planning Commission would like to change that. There are safety issues associated with bicycle use and thankfully during my 30-odd years of riding bicycles as an adult I have not collided with a motor vehicle.I've covered well in excess of 100,000 kilometres in that time. I've chosen my adult life as it would need to include the time I ran up the back of a car as a12-year-old.
A quote from the August 2002 newsletter from BSD Consulting, an article written by Derek Hitchins who is an associate director of senior traffic engineering and BSD Consultants, titled Public Transport, Weaning Perth Off Cars:
54 Perth, along with the congested cities of Houston andLos Angeles have the notorious distinction of being world leaders in itsdependence on the automobile. This accolade was awarded to Perth in a recent reviewin 2002 released by the New Zealand government agency responsible foradministering the Energy Efficiency and Conservation Act.The review categorised Perth as having an extreme automobile dependence but rated Auckland, whichis facing similar poor levels of public transport usage, of having only a highautomobile dependence.
However, the construction of a new south-westmetropolitan railway in the city could dramatically alter this situation and catapult Perthinto a new era of public transport.
My reason for quoting them. The environmental problemsassociated with poor usage of public transport and consequent high automobiledependence are well documented. No-one wants to see Perth or Auckland, for that matter,with an air pollution problem similar to that faced by some of the major cities in the US whereit is common practice for people to be advised to stay indoors for health reasons,It is therefore interesting to examine how the respective governments of Perth and Auckland, both lowpopulation density urban sprawls, manage their high levels of car dependence.In both instances the challenge has been how to introduce public transport initiatives that minimise theimpact on car users, those being voters.
The Perth-Mandurah rail project is to be commended, I would like to congratulate the government and the planning commission on the decision to run ahigh speed, high volume passenger service down the middle of thefreeway.By doing thisitis putting a more efficient travel option in people's field of vision and thereby putting theidea in their minds, but unless there is put in place a network of feeder routes thesetrains will not operate at full efficiency.
Canning Highway is one of these feeder corridors. Canning Bridge rail stationwill offer no private parking.I expect the Perth-Mandurah rail line will be so successful that it will show up deficiencies in the transport network in other areas.The obviously shortfall to me is getting commuters to the Canning Bridge station. Commuters will be lookingfor inter-modal feeder routes in such numbers thatI hope it will put pressure on the bus links.I'm not one-eyed enough to think that bicycles will be the answer for all our transportneeds but the one mode of transport with a huge amount ofunder-utilisation is the humble bicycle.
MS ALLAN: Noel, would you like some water? There's water there and clean glasses if you would like to help yourself.
55 MR EDDINGTON: Thank you.Bicycles sit in back sheds waiting for a sunny Sunday afternoon to be taken out for a ride.Perth has more bikes sold every year than cars. This has been true for the 30 years I've been riding bikes.Another mode of feeding the Perth-Mandurah rail line may be trams.I recently travelled to the Netherlands which I'm sure you will be aware is one of the highest proportion oftravel being done by non-private motor vehicles in the world.From what I observed in the city of The Hague road reservations of similar importance to Canning Highway contained a great deal of choice.
From the property boundary on one side of the road to the other side there was adual use path of a good width, approximately two and a half metres, which were used by pedestrians and young cyclists.Down the kerb line was a bike lane which was shared with mopeds, then two lanes of motor vehicles, in the middle a tram line in each direction, followed byin travelling the opposite way, two lanes of motor vehicles, the bike lane and the dual use path. I did not measure the width of this road reservation but you can be sure that worldbest practice does not fit in a 35 metre road reserve, let alone the 25 metres as it is proposed in places in this amendment.
I would like to quote from the WA Bicycle Committee, just a couple of sections there on activity corridors and also cyclists' needs:
The Network City strategy defines an activity corridor as a connection between activity centres that provide excellent, high frequency public transport. These corridors are designed to be high speed through traffic routes and have a variety of land uses that support public transport. The central part of the corridor sees emphasis given to public transport, walking and cycling, with space in the transport road reserve being shared between different users.
Canning Highway is defined as an activity corridor connecting Perth and Fremantle. In order for Canning Highway metropolitan regional scheme amendment to fulfil the objectives of an activity corridor as defined in Network Cities it is essential that all road users are catered for in the cross-section supplied. Cyclists' needs on any major route, especially activity corridors such as Canning Highway, two types of cycling facilities need to be provided for various cyclists' needs.One is on-road cycling lanes that would be used by competent commuter cyclistslike myself:
Off-road path facilities would be used by novice and child cyclists who would be reluctant to cycle on-road. Paths would also primarily serve pedestrians and wheelchair users. Off-road facilities require to facilitate short cycle trips for all levels of cyclists in the counter-flow direction.
Canning Highway is an important regional road in the metropolitan regional scheme and Network Cities identifies as an activity corridor is going to reduce future planning options for a smooth transition to a travelling public less reliant on motor vehicles. Therefore, what I am sure of is that to reduce the road reservation on Canning Highway between Petra Street and Canning Bridge is unwise. Itis a decision which goes against government policy and philosophy.
56 As Bruce Robinson, who spoke to you earlier from the Sustainable Transport Coalitionhe's also a committee on the cycling clubhas spoken to your earlier today and would I hope have left you in no doubt that changes in transport modes are going to be forced upon our society in the form of higher fuel prices and shortening supply, so I don't need to repeat this but I put it in context.What I would like to emphasis is change is upon us.Reducing important regional road reservations reduces the ability to adapt to these changes.
Don't jump to the conclusion that half the commuting population will wake up one morning and say, "Fuel is too expensive today, so I'm going to jump on my bike, or bus, or car pool, so there will suddenly be half the number of cars on the road and the authorities will close one lane and the bikes and buses will have the lane to themselves." We all know that change doesn't happen like this.It changes very slowly.Changes in travel mode choice occur very slowly and itis the transition phase where the largest road reservation is required.
Look at the Travel Smart program piloted by the City of South Perth to see how much effort to change people'sor to get people out of their cars.I don't know the percentages but it has been a very successful program and it has been enlarged to other local governments I believe. There is only one constant and that is change. Don't limit the options where these changes are needed. Therefore what I am sure of is that the reduction in road reservation on Canning Highway between Petra Street and Canning Bridge is unwise.It is a decision which goes against government policy and philosophy.
MS ALLAN: Thanks, Noel, that was terrific. We would be able to have a copy of that?
MR EDDINGTON: Sure.
MS ALLAN: We can take a copy of that's preferable.
MR EDDINGTON: All right, with my little adjustments.
MS ALLAN: That was terrific,it amplified your brief submission very well, so thanks for that, and provided a lot of useful information for us. Any questions, Susan?
MS KREEMER- PICKFORD: No, not at this stage.It was very well put together.
CLR GRAHAM: No.
MS ALLAN: Anything you'd like to ask us?
MR EDDINGTON: No.I work in local government and I know how the process works.
MS ALLAN: You're happy with that?
MR EDDINGTON: Yes.
57 MS ALLAN:How long has your group been going, just out of interest,the Cycle Touring Association?
MR EDDINGTON: 31 years.
MS ALLAN: 31 years?
MR EDDINGTON: Yes.
MS ALLAN: And you were -
MR EDDINGTON:I've been a member since 87, so 17-odd years. Weconduct bike rides in the Perth area but also weekends away to andfrom country destinations; an annual ride that's open to the public for which 120 take part over anine-day period, which is running later this month.
MS ALLAN:It's a tour through what, he south-west or
MR EDDINGTON:Yes. This year starting in Busselton and finishing in Armadale,going via Balingup and Waroona and - yes.I can't remember the towns off the cuff.
MS ALLAN: But right up through the South-West Highway area.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: A few more hills down that way.
MR EDDINGTON: Yes. That's been going for 12 years now.
MS ALLAN: On that route?
MR EDDINGTON: We use various routes. Albany; we've done some upin the wheatbelt area on quiet country roads. The club hasridden bicycles over most roads and I can only see that increasing.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: What's the membership at the moment?
MR EDDINGTON:168.
MS ALLAN: For those tours you get other people?
MR EDDINGTON: We open it up to the public to take part and, yes, we have put a maximum of 120 on that due to basically the ability of small countrytowns to cater for the ablution facilities.
MS ALLAN:That's great.It leaves me just to say once again thank you very much for the submission. We all found it very comprehensive, hence no questions.
58 MR EDDINGTON: Thank you.
MS ALLAN: Thanks very much for your assistance, we appreciate it.
59 MR JOHN CHORTIS Representing Mr Angelo Chortis
MS ALLAN: Hello, John, how are you?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Hello.
MS ALLAN: John, you know everybody here.Richard, John Chortis.
CLR GRAHAM: Hello, how do you do?
MR CHORTIS:Hello
MS ALLAN:Well, we're here as a committee, John. You knoweverybody, so I guess - you heard Noel's presentation?
MR CHORTIS: Yes.I'm representing my father, Angelo, whose property isin question, which is that house here. That's Tain Street whichhas been a cul-de-sac for the last 30-odd years and there's a block of flatsthere.That's my father's house and the truncation in question is coming off that corner there.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MR CHORTIS:Dad's 93 and at a nursing home, so he sends hisapologies for not being able to be here.I generally support the intent of the amendment toreduce the reservation of Canning Highway. Contrary to the last speaker thatI heard, I caution members about maintaining a wide reservation because basically CanningHighway is not a road traffic - it doesn't perform a road traffic function in terms of LeachHighway or South Street.It is within (indistinct) activity corridor.The whole idea is that you get a point of friction with regards to pedestrian crossings, cyclists, buses, cars. You don't wantit to go to six lanes to be like Albany Highway at Carousel where the pedestriancannot cross the road.
Melville Council has been very proactive in encouraging mixed usagesalong the frontage; medical offices and so on. So that encourages that type ofpedestrian scale activity. What you do within the reservation is totally upto the council and the road traffic authority in terms of whether it should be prioritised for cyclists, which Iwould agree. You don't have to have a continuous bus lane from one end to the other. Where thepinch points are is at Riseley Street and at Canning Bridge. I've lived all my life here, I grew upin this area, so I'm familiar with the area.
My general view is that the Canning Highway amendmentshould proceed as proposed in
terms of substantially reducing the reservation and also I believe that it shouldn't be a six lane road, it should be kept as four lanes with someimprovements, say, from Reynolds Road back to Canning Highway and then at Riseley Streetto allow for some turning movements and congestion to be relieved at those locations.
60 MS ALLAN: So it was Reynolds back to Canning?
MR CHORTIS:Yes, from Reynolds Road back to Canning Highway.Reynolds Road back to Canning Highway is five lanes. You have actually gotthree lanes going back to Canning Bridge and two lanes coming back the other way and sothere is wider capacity there that could be improved upon.All that area down there is commercial and that's ready for redevelopment.There are old uses, such as a boat yard and that, that areready to be redeveloped, so there ispotential to do some road improvements through that area. Anyway, that is just the general intent, I support thereduction.
Given that there is only 44 people wishing to attend thehearings out of a thousand people, I think that's a testament that it's in the right direction in termsof the amendment.
In terms of my dad's humble truncation requirement: Tain Streethas been a cul-de-sac for about 30 years, since the early seventies. There is no intentionsfrom the Melville Council, whose decision it is to either open a local road access orto close it, to open it. They have requesting that all actually, I understand, made a submission to DPI or to WAPC truncations be removed from roads that are cul-de-sacs.
CLR GRAHAM: Sorry, John, ifI could just interrupt. Do we have a map for this one?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I'm just going through trying to find it.
CLR GRAHAM: Do we have it here.
MR KLEIDON: Plan number 15.
MS ALLAN:It's on the corner.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: That one, yes, got it. Thank you. Lot 344.
MR CHORTIS:So that just gives you a better idea - that's the nice coloured roof you can see of the six flats.
CLR GRAHAM: Yes.
MR CHORTIS: And that's my father's house and that's the cul-de-sac that's been there for 30-odd years. So, as Isaid, the council had no intentions to open it up. They also support the removal of truncations. Truncations are only there really to secure line of sight, so if the road was opened, then to ensure people can see what trucks and cars are coming down Canning Highway. In addition to that, truncations are also used for services. Now, services have been there for the last 50 years.They have accommodated the right angle lot configuration, so services are not an issue.
61 In terms of line of sight, the only other issue would be fencing, to ensurethat fencing is not obscuring cars coming out. Council control fencing with by-lawsand, as you can see by the low wall on dad's house, it also shows when the road wasopened up 30-odd years ago the fencing requirements of council were such that a low wall was required.
I can't find your CLR GRAHAM: John, I just want to adjust this what you're saying. submission in my file here.
MR CHORTIS:Right, sorry. That's a copy of it.
CLR GRAHAM:Is it in here?
MS ALLAN: No, none of us have it.
CLR GRAHAM:I would like to also apologise on behalf of the WAPC, the submission went missing apparently.
MR CHORTIS: Okay.Well, that explains it, because we would have gone on and not known.
MS ALLAN: We would have got a copy afterwards.
MR CHORTIS: Yes, but I mean during this -
MS ALLAN: The currency of this presentation.
MR CHORTIS: Given that you know Ihaven't got this in front of me, the green - the reservation, why is it proposed to be there?
MR KLEIDON: The reservation of the truncation?
MR CHORTIS: Yes.
MR KLEIDON:That's a standard truncation that is generally applied and has been applied all the way along Canning Highway. At a cul-de-sac street the committee might consider what it seeks to do.
CLR GRAHAM: So it's just a standard thing.
MR CHORTIS:Engineers have a habit of making sure that that standards are maintained, whether or not there's a reason for it or not. That's my personal view.
CLR GRAHAM:Yes. thank you.Sorry, Ididn't meant to interrupt your flow but I need to know.
62 MR CHORTIS: Of course the truncations can vary now, so in other words if it's amajor road onto a major road, then you can have larger truncations, likesix by six, which is what this one is proposed I think from memory. Is it?
MR KLEIDON: Roughly.
MR CHORTIS:Roughly. But if you have a local road coming out to a lesser road, then the standards can go down to even two by two or not have any truncationsat all.So there is flexibility depending on the functionality of the road.But in this case we're saying that there's no road connection, so thereforeitreally makes a truncation irrelevant for any technical reasons or road safety reasons.
MS ALLAN: All right.You've stated that here.You've said you don't support any truncation on the lot because "(a) Tain Street has been a cul-de-sacfor 30 years; (b) there's no traffic safety requirement to secure aline of sight by the truncation if Tain Street is not open to the highway; (c) Melville Council,who control local street access, have no intention to open Tain Street onto Canning Highway; (d) Melville Councilsupport the removal of truncations from all road intersections that are closed off from CanningHighway; (d) WAPC, DPI have clarified Canning Highway as an activity corridor and not ahighway.Rigid geometric road standards no longer apply under an activity corridorwhich encourages a more constrained street environment with greaterpriority for pedestrians, cyclists and public transport."
So perhaps we're really up to I guess (d) now, aren't we, the Melville Council support.
MR CHORTIS:Yes.I spoke to Craig McLernon and I understand that they also don't see any logic in retaining truncations on particularlyroads that are cul-de-sacs and there is no intention to reopen them.
MS ALLAN:Is that a council decision, John, or s that
MR CHORTIS:No. Because it's a main road it's a DPI decision in terms of the truncations staying on.
MS ALLAN: But have they written to Main Roads?
MR CHORTIS:I understand they have made a submission.
MR KLEIDON The council has made a submission.
MR KLEIDON:I'm not privy to what they've said but I'm just going by what Craig advised me about what they were going to say.
MS ALLAN: To Main Roads.
MR KLEIDON: Well, to us I think.
63 MR CHORTIS: The other things is that line of sight iscontrolled by the council fencing policy too.I haven't said that in there. Also services.Services have the house has been there for 55 years. The services haveaccommodated themselves around dad's block, so you can't really use that. Soit's one of those standards that I don't thinkthere's a reason for it, except for them to be consistent andmaybe sometime in a hundred years from nowif there's a need for something to happen,I don't know.It's an impost on the commission to I can't think of buy that little truncation and it'sreally just an impost on my father to have it. anything positive to say about the truncation.
MS ALLAN: Right.
MR CHORTIS:Please hang on to the submission and thephoto. There are I think about half a dozen roads or so that have beencul-de-sac'd off in this area.
MS ALLAN: Would you mind clarifying what you meanby your second point (e) about the activity corridor? There's a bit of MR CHORTIS: I suppose it's what I said in my opening remark. contradictionthis person that spoke before talked aboutEurope and there's tramways in the middle and cyclists and there'severything.That's true but it's all within 20 metres of road reserves. What he is describing issomething that they're fitting within 20 to 30 metre road reserves.It's really creating a bit of friction, like theMelbourne trams and not over- engineering a road, like they have done in CanningHighway through South Perth. They have provided right-turn lanes but they havepainted them on.They haven't provided a physical barrier for that to occur, which meansif you provide a physical barrier, like a median island, that's another five or six metres.Like, the textbook says to provide a right- turn lane on a highway you need afive-metre median island. They have done thatwithin about two metres but they have painted it on.
So having recognised that Canning Highwayis an activity corridor, recognising that there are shops and the need forpeople to cross safely across Canning Highway toroads and other amenities they have constrained theengineering requirements in a way that's conducive to pedestrians and cyclists and anyoneelse that uses it.
So that's what I'm sayingthat with activity corridors you need to more or lessthrow away the manual in terms of how to design a highwayand basically look at what's really there and what's important in terms of the principles that you wantto foster.
If it means to foster a sense of community, tofoster mixed use developments where people are crossing the road frequently,then what you need to do is to ensure that there's a littlebit of friction so the traffic speeds can come down and to ensurethat the road isn't widened to an extent where it becomesimpossible for someone to cross the road at grade and they have to go via a bridge or an underpass which, as youknow, aren't as popular or really accessible to those people.
64 There's an overhead bridge at Canning Bridge.There is still a temptation by me sometimes when I go to Clancys across the road toactually cross the road at grade but often youdo use the bridge.I'm just saying if you can reduce the standards onactivities corridors to reflect its intent, then Ithink that's what should occur.Main Roads have done that on Canning Highway through the South Perth area.They actually haven't provided solid median islands which require another five metres,which requires another five metres off the properties.They have actually kept the houses, albeitit's quite a restricted front yard they've got but they have got a wall up now.The houses have been kept in place which is It great.It's maintaining the urban fabric and thehouses are being reused for other uses. could be for medical suites, it could be forwhatever.
that there's not That's what I think the intent of this amendment is about; to ensure demolitions; that the urban fabric is maintained. Where youneed to do some widenings are maybe your Leach Highways and South Streetswhere they are performing more of a traffic and freight function.Canning Highway no.Canning Highway is a traditional road and maybe in the future we might see lightrail running down Canning Highway, up Rise ley Street to Booragoon.That can all happen within the currentreservation, the reduced reservation.It just means you have to re-prioritise what goes on.
In other words, instead of having four lanes onCanning Highway for cars you might want to ensure that within those fourlanes a tramway runs withinit and the cars have to accommodate the tramway and vice versa. So that'sthe point of friction (indistinct) that I think we're trying to create; the planners, maybenot the engineers. So that's my take on that activity corridor.I don't want it to become like a Carousel on AlbanyHighway where it's six lanes and sort of like you have to drive your carfrom one side of the road to the other to go shopping. You know, youwouldn't walk through there, it's a bit scary. Going backto the humble truncation, I'll leave those points to you to consider.
MS ALLAN: Thank you, John. Are there anyquestions?
CLR GRAHAM: No.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Not forme.
MR CHORTIS: Okay, thank you.
MS ALLAN: I have one. You mentioned Canning Highway in South Perth, but whereabouts in South Perth?
MR CHORTIS: Douglas Avenue; all the main pointsis Douglas, South Terrace.
MS ALLAN:In that locality.
65 MR CHORTIS:Also what they have done, they have only paintedless than a two-metre median island, so cars wanting to turn right to go tothe private schools - is it Penrhos there? The cars are smart enough to actually park onthe painted median.It still allows the outside through lane to continue, so cars and people aren'tsilly. They know how to adjust themselves.So instead of providing your protected turningmovements and pockets and median islands they have actually just paintedthat on the median island and cars just move over and in the peak hour - becauseI take my son to Trinity every morningyou can see the cars still flowing through at a lower speed,at 40, 50 Ks but that's fine. That's what that road is designed to do, is to create a bit of friction.You mustn't be scared of creating that bit of friction and slowing the pace of traffic downand the speed of traffic down.
Leach Highway and South Street are totallydifferent and they need to be treated differently and that would require some widenings andacquisition of properties to accommodate the freight task primarily.
MS ALLAN: Thanks very much for clarifying that.Thank you.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Thanks a lot.
66 MR DAVID NICHOLSON Representing the WA Cycling Committee
MS ALLAN: David, we heard from the Cyclists ActionGroup and we heard from the Sustainable Transport Coalition, BruceRobinson represented both and he mentionedhe was supportive of thecommittee's submission and Noel Eddingtondid from the Cycle Touring Association, so we've beenfortunate in hearing I guess aspects of thecommittee's submission from those
MR NICHOLSON: I'm not aware of what Bruce wassaying on behalf of those other organisations.
MS ALLAN: No.
MR NICHOLSON: We'll possibly cover someof the same ground.
MS ALLAN:I just thought I would mention that to you sothat you would be aware that we have heard some aspects of it.What I might do is introduce ourselves to youwhile we're setting up. When you're ready. Bruceessentially talked about oil vulnerability and alsothe concept of looking forward rather thanbackwards, you know, in terms of transport planning. While we are setting up I'll introduce thecommittee to you. My name is Verity Allan andI represent the West Australian PlanningCommission. On my leftis Susan Kreemer- Pickford.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Hi.
MR NICHOLSON:Hi, Susan.
MS ALLAN: And Richard you've met.
MR NICHOLSON:I know Richard.
MS ALLAN: Yes, And Alan.
MR NICHOLSON:I know Alan as well.
MS ALLAN:If you would like a water, you're welcome to have one.
MR NICHOLSON: Thank you.I could probably do some of the earlier partsthat aren't so reliant on the photographs if you like.
MS ALLAN: Yes, we're happy. That's fine.
67 the WA Cycling Committee MR NICHOLSON: Particularly the introductory representing include Bruce Robinson and and our submissions preparedby a sub-committee which did other representatives and to usethe submission in this presentationof those of the sub- I just need a committee rather than myself.I might say a few things as we goalong. password. Okay. the WA As Isaid, I'm representing the WACycling Committee which until recently was Bicycle Committee and it wasrenamed.
different MS ALLAN: Thanks for explaining that becauseI saw the two names used in spots, so I wasn't too sure.
MR NICHOLSON: We reportdirectly to the minister through ourindependent chairperson and have fairly broad terms ofreference which I haven't copied onhere but they include dealing with these sorts of matterswhere we're addressing provisionof cycling infrastructure and programs and promotingcycling. Main Roads, myself as the The committee itself consistsof representatives of DPI and Safety Council, a appointed local governmentrepresentative, police, education, Road number of cycling groups such asthe one Bruce represents andthe Over 55 Cycling Association.I want to just quickly addressrelevant state government policies. number of key state Cycling is a legitimate transportmode and it's addressed in a government documents includingthe state planning strategy, the statesustainability recently in strategy, the metropolitan transportstrategy, the Bike Ahead strategy and more that the minister has Network City and through ourindependent chair we have been advised requested the preparation of a statementof planning policy to deal specificallywith cycling.
MS ALLAN: Who is the independentchair?
MR NICHOLSON: Alex Piper.In terms of the state planning strategyit seeks to double the cycling mode share in the metropolitan areabut this correlates to an actual triplingof cycling trips because many of the trips areshort distance. Within the strategyit states that in the metropolitan region transport emphasiswill be on the upgrading of facilities forcycling and walking, providing public transportand strategic roads.
address cycling, In the state sustainability strategythere's a broad range of areas that which I'm sure including responding to greenhouseand climate change, oil vulnerability and Bruce spoke about, integrating land useand balanced transport, sustainable energy - obviously bicycles don't consume anythingother than human energy and sustaining healthy communities with cycling as ahealth promoting form of exercise aswell as transport.
68 In the metropolitan transport strategy we're seeking to move from a transportsystem dominated by low occupancy car use to a more balanced system in whichpublic transport and non-motorised transport options are feasible for many trips and the targetis to increase cycling from 5.7 per cent of trips in 1995 to ultimately 11 and a half per cent oftrips by 2029.
In the Bike Ahead strategy, which is the state's specific strategy for cyclingin Perth,it maintains the previous BikeVVest approach that every street is a bicycle streetand it emphasises the development of a network of cycling facilities that consist of four Cs; Cfor convenience, C for comprehensive, C for connective and C has regional coverage.These four Cs complement the traditional four Es of bike planning that havebeen around for decades, which are engineering, encouragement, education and enforcement. We're dealing specifically in today's amendment with engineering in terms of the provisionof infrastructure.
In the Network City document released last year, of relevance is activitycorridors, since
Canning Highway is defined as one and I heard John Chortis talking about that in his presentation. The quote that we have extracted from the document indicates thatactivity corridors are defined as connections between activity centres that provide excellenthigh frequency public transport. These corridors are not designed for high speed throughtraffic and have a variety of land uses that support public transport. The central part of thecorridor sees emphasis given to public transport, walking andcycling, with space in the road reserve being shared between different users.
MS ALLAN: You might just pull the screen around, Tim, so it's more (indistinct)That's better, thank you.
MR NICHOLSON:This is just a graphical representation of the MTS which is to shift the red bars which would have been the amount of car driving in the year 2029 across tothe other non-motorised modes and public transport and also tele-commuting. We got tothis point -
MS ALLAN:Sorry, could you just lete know what the status of Bike Ahead is?
MR NICHOLSON:(indistinct) the current cycling strategy for metropolitan Perth as a sub- component which is Perth Bicycle Network, which is a separate document.
MS ALLAN: So Bike Ahead is a subset of the state transportmetropolitan
MR NICHOLSON: Yes. The state has a suite of documents for freight, walking, cycling et cetera and this is the cycling document.
MS ALLAN: So it comes out of the Metropolitan Transport Strategy?
MR NICHOLSON:It was released at about the same time.It's a complementary document to the- -
69 MS ALLAN:Is it a guidance document or a policy orstrategy?
from the Network City is Canning MR NICHOLSON: Strategy. The conclusion we draw Highway is an activity corridor and it mustcater for cyclists. Their stated objectives are on that document. The amendmentitself, the WA Cycling Council agrees thatthe reservation is too wide and should be narrowedand the committee is mindful of thefinancial liabilities committee is insistent that will arise from any landacquisition for the WAPC. However, the that we must retain enough reservationfor the potential future needs of thecommunity which in include cycling and thestated objectives of the amendmentinclude better So if we integration with adjoining land useplanning and improved safety for all road users. be providing high quality are going to have betterintegration and improved safety we should cycling facilities but cycling is actually notaddressed at all in the amendment document.
I just wanted to make a pointhere that cyclists aren't just oneparticular group of people. There are number of different typesof activities undertaken by cyclists,ranging from the lycra-clad commuter who travel at high speed on a typicalwhat people see as the typical racing bike and then you have got groupsof children and adults just going for aslow pace other passengers to local recreationalride,people who want to transport goods or destinations and children who want toride to school are just some examplesof types of cyclists that are catered for on the roadand adjacent paths.
So we need to cater for two differenttypes of cycling. On-road cycling laneswould be used by competent cyclists and also commutercyclists and off-road facilities for novicecyclists cycle trips for all types and children, pedestrians andwheelchair users and to facilitate short of cyclists in the counterflowdirection. What that means is if you had, say, anon-road facility on a road like Canning Highwayit would be unrealistic to expect peopleto come down a side street and to cross theroad where there may not be a medianbreak to get in the on-road lane on the other sideand then travel a short distance and then crossback over to their destination. They should beable to stay on the footpath or sharedpath on the same side of the road to avoid having to crossthe road twice.
I just wanted to make you awarethat the WA Road Traffic Code currentlyprohibits cycling on footpaths unless you're achild under 12 years of age. There arechanges proposed to that but they have yet to be gazetted.
So until that happens, this remains asthe status quo.In this document and current discussions about almost an identicalscenario on Stirling Highway it's suggestedthat cyclists should use alternative routes andthere are designated Perth bicycle networkroutes through the areas to the north and thesouth and also a recreational path aroundthe river.
70 However, when you look at a map, these routes aresignificantly more circuitous and much longer, even for local trips, and they'remuch more difficult to navigate.I certainly couldn't find my way from Fremantle to Canning Bridgealong those routes unless I had a map or I was following the signedPBN route which is much longer than staying onCanning Highway and the fact that destinations exist alongCanning Highway for cyclists as well. So just like any car user, cyclists want to accessshops and commercial premises and ride to their places of employment et cetera. As I pointedout, deviating to alternative routes makestrips much longer and therefore discouragescycling.
On-road cycling requirements then. The planning for Canning Highway must meet appropriate standards for all non-motorised transportmodes, pedestrians and cyclists. The on-road facilities are essential for theentire length of the amendment, Petra Street to Canning Bridge, in the view of WACC and within theAustroads guide to traffic engineering practice, part 14 Cycling recommends a one and ahalf metre wide on-road cycle lane for a 60 kilometre speed zone, althoughit does have an acceptable range whichis slightly narrower than that at 1.2 metresranging through to much wider at 2.5 metres.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: David, do you know what width of path you'relooking at in that photograph?
MR NICHOLSON: One and a half metres.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: That's the 1.5.
MR NICHOLSON:It's South Street in Beaconsfield.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Thanks.
MS ALLAN:Sorry, were you making a recommendation?
MR NICHOLSON: No.I was just pointing out what the standards say;that there is a recommended width but also a range that the nationalguidelines recommend.In terms of off-road cycling, novice and child cyclists won't useon-road cycles lanes, they won't have the confident or skill to do that and nor wouldparents of children want them riding on a busy road like Canning Highway. So it's criticaltherefore to provide a shared path on the verge and this has been done.
The higher photograph shows CanningHighway at Canning Bridge taken from the pedestrian overpass John Chortis referred to, soprovision has been made for off-road cycling in one part already.
71 In the view of the WACC based on ourexperience we expect about 2.8 metres of the verge to be obstructed by street furniture andthe lower photograph shows Canning Highwayjust to the east of Petra Street and this iswhat we mean by the two and a half metres where there are bus shelters, phone boxes, trees,bus stop signage and in other locations you'll get poles and parking signs and A-frame signs andrubbish bins, so it becomes a bit of an obstacle course for pedestrians as well ascyclists. So what we therefore recommend is that you need a four metre clear areathat's the three metre wide shared path with a halfmetre clearance on other side of that.
We don't believe that you need to go to the extentof providing a segregated path where pedestrians and cyclists use different facilities. That'snice where you can do it like Subiaco where you have the scope to do it but in CanningHighway we don't expect that that's either possible or necessary.I have tried to get quality cross-sections fromAlan but these are the ones that I scanned from thedocument just for the purpose of illustrating whatwe're talking about.In the Petra Street to Collier Road section itdoesn't appear to provide for on or off- road cycling.There's no little picture of a cyclist in the lanesthere. Iunfortunately can't read the width.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I think it's 4.2 for the sharedthe bus the kerbside lane.
MR NICHOLSON: Yes.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Yes.
MR NICHOLSON: However, we know at various points bus queuejump lanes are proposed which are 4.2 metres wide and underthe WA Road Traffic Code anything that's reserved for use of a bus does not permit useof that area by a cyclist and that's been an ongoing concern. Some of you may be awareof the stalemate that has arisen in Hampton Road where bus lanes have been provided butfor four years the City of Fremantle has been seeking to allow cyclists to use them and it has notbeen resolved to this date.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: How wide isthat bus lane?
MR NICHOLSON: It's probably about 3.7 metres.That is a relatively short section and much lower flows of buses that you would get onCanning Highway.
CLR GRAHAM: So that area of Hampton Road,is there a separate bike lane?
MR NICHOLSON: No. The dilemma in Hampton Road is the vergesaren't wide enough for shared paths.Cyclists can't ride in the bus lane.Adult cyclists can't ride on the footpaths, so technically the only place you canride is in the centre lane and you would have to be very brave or very stupid to dothat, due to the volume of trucks and buses usingthe road. A couple of cyclists demonstrated howfoolhardy that was by attempting to do it and being abused by motorists.At the time we had an on-site meetingwith the state government agencies.
72 we're on it.You said MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: David, just to clarify a point just while Was that in the Road that an area that's dedicated to buslanes cannot be used by cyclists. Traffic Act?
MR NICHOLSON: The dedicated buslane is just not permitted to be used bycyclists.
if it was a shared bus MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: If it's a dedicated bus lane. But what and bike lane? Would that be different?
MR NICHOLSON:It would have to be designated assuch.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Right,that's fine.
MS ALLAN: So Hampton Road is adesignated bus lane, is it?
to use it but not other MR NICHOLSON: Yes.Taxis have been given an exemption category of user.The other section between Collier Roadand Canning Bridge doesn't kerbside bus lane appear to provide for on oroff-road cycling as well. There's a 4,2 metre that indicates it's shared by cyclistsand buses but unless Main Roads gaveassent to that being the case, again it would be a buslane only and cyclists wouldn't bepermitted to use it under the WA Road Traffic Code.
There's also a concernI'm not exactly sure what was meantby this, it was included in the document about the left-turn lanes.It maybe something to do with the angleof the left-turn sub- slip lanes.That was something that was includedin the submission made by the specified in committee. So in conclusion the VVACCdoesn't believe that the cross-section the amendment meet the statedobjectives which was integration andproviding for the safe movement of all road users and theycertainly don't meet requirements for aNetwork City activity corridor and the committeedoesn't believe it is satisfactory forcycling. What we in relation to actually submitted, which was alsosubmitted to the WAPC transport committee Stirling Highway - so we're beingconsistent here is some recommended widths for the reservation in sections with and withoutbus lanes.So based on informationIincluded the verge we earlier in the presentation where wedealt with the problem with obstacles on bus lanes and 43 metres with bus come up with a totalwidth of just over 36 metres without lanes.
spoke about median lanes andagain I concur with his I note that John Chortis also comments that that's somethingthat's set down in standards that'sall too often rigidly adhered to without discussion or debateand itis possible that median islands arenot needed in certain parts of CanningHighway.For example, they aren't providedthrough much of East Fremantle but thatdoesn't seem to be a big issue.In fact the movement of vehicles down to opposing vehicles relatively close togethercreates friction that would slow some extent, whereaswhere you provide a median yougive the impression of a much higher standard, high-speed roadwhich then makes itless hospitable for cycling and pedestrians both crossing the road andwalking adjacent to it.
73 So we have just made a couple of footnotes.Where there are no right turns obviously the median could be reduced to two metreswith a corresponding reduction in the reservation and at intersections at some locationslike North Lake Road it may be necessary towiden the reservation if you have more than oneturning lane. That was all for the presentation.
MS ALLAN: Yes, Any questions?
3.5 metre MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Yes, I wouldn't mind. David, just a question about wide traffic lanes in your requestedcross-section.I can understand having that requirement for the width of the bus. Was there aparticular reason why you needed that increasedwidth from, say, 3.3 as a standard trafficlane to 3.5 in the general traffic lane?
MR NICHOLSON: Only to give greaterclearance to cycling.
and giving MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:It's just on that theme of narrowing down the area the driver the perception that hehas got a wider area for the faster traffic flow.I'm sort of thinking about the effects where, you know,if you narrow the traffic lanes down -I know there's an issue for buses - but in the trafficlanes whether it would be appropriate to just have that little bit narrow and tighter to getthat friction.
MR NICHOLSON: That could bepossible I think.In Fremantle we have to get down to 3.2 or 3.3 metres which is thebare minimum for bus routes that Transperthwill accept.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: That'sright. 3.2 absolute minimum but I've seen the buses at 3.3 generally.3.5 would be not comfortable but justfor the general traffic lanes there's probably scope to perhaps tighten up thetraffic lanes.
CLR GRAHAM:I don't have any questions.
Could you MS ALLAN: The 43.2 total width differs obviouslyfrom what is proposed. elaborate? What's the difference reallybetween the two?
lane but also the wider MR NICHOLSON:As Susan pointed out, the width of the traffic we have got 1.8 metre forit's actually shown in this diagram.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I think it was drawn up from your proposal.
CLR GRAHAM:It's an interpretation of your submission.
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MR NICHOLSON:The median is the same. The traffic lanes aremarginally wider. The verge is wider because wehad that problem with the clearance where youprovide bus shelters. Now, that could be worked around if you'resomehow able to provide pockets at various intervals where the bus shelters could be setback rather than have that continuous width.
74 MS ALLAN: You're saying 6.8 and here it's shown as 5.3.
MR NICHOLSON: Yes. We're very aware of the way that
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: But also in this one, the 36.2, that's not including the extra bus lane.You've got two traffic lanes and your total reserve width without bus lanes was 36.2 which is what's here.
MR NICHOLSON: Yes.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Okay. So that's saying another bus lane on either side would bring it up to 43.2.
MS ALLAN: That's curious. The total width there is 36.2.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Which matches that one. The total reservewithout bus lane.
MS ALLAN: It say withoutyes, I see.
MR NICHOLSON: The bus lanes refers to the queue jump published in a couple of locations.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: So that would just occur, the 43 at theintersections.
MS ALLAN: Okay.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Is that right?
MR NICHOLSON: Yes.
MS ALLAN: So it's only at the queue jump?
MR NICHOLSON: Yes.I think the queue jump was at North Lake Road and Reynolds.
MR KLEIDON:There's also continuous bus lanes on the Canning Highway plans running from Rise ley Street down to Canning Bridge where the highest bus volumes and the highest number of bus passengers exists.
MR NICHOLSON: Yes, that's the buses that come from Garden City to get onto the freeway, so therefore there's really two sets of cross-sections that have beenwritten up in that submission as a basic cross-section with four lanes and then an additional onewith two more bus lanes.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I just had one more question if that's all right?
75 MS ALLAN: Yes, thanks.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: When you've gotthe cycle lane, say there's a desirable width of 1.8 and that was somehow able to beaccommodated within the road width, if there were certain constraints because itis within a (indistinct) environment,if there were certain constraints and that had to be reduced any, wouldthat take away from the facility that has been provided. So if it was 1.8 or whatcould be achieved reasonably down but then at a few points it had to narrow in just becauseof physical constraints, would that detract from the facility in your opinion?
MR NICHOLSON: No.I mean, that's common and Austroads indicatesthat such squeeze points generally have to be accommodated andit is acceptable to go down short distances to a narrower section.
MS ALLAN: Any further questions,Richard?
CLR GRAHAM: No.
if MS ALLAN: It would be useful for me ifI had a copy of your power point presentation that's all right.
MR NICHOLSON: A hard copy, okay?
MS ALLAN: Yes. Just that the points you'veraised I would like to - thanks very much.
MR NICHOLSON:I can leave that one if you like.I can always print it again.
MS ALLAN:All right, thanks. Thanks very much, that was veryfulsome and it fleshed out the earlier presentations.
MR NICHOLSON: Okay. Thank you.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Thanks, David.
CLR GRAHAM: Thank you, David.
76 MR FRANK LEMMA and MR CON BAGIOS Representing Newminster Holdings Pty Ltd
MS ALLAN:Good afternoon. Frank?
MR LEMMA:I'm Frank. Con Bagios.
MS ALLAN:Nice to meet you.
MR LEMMA: Con is the director of Newminster. He owns and operates the Canning Bridge Auto Lodge.
MS ALLAN:Thanks for coming in today.
MR LEMMA:Thank you.
MS ALLAN:I'll introduce ourselves to you. We're the hearings committee convened by the West Australian Planning Commission to do the hearings for this amendment. My name is Verity Allan.I'm a member of committees of the commission.To my left is Susan Kreemer-Pickford and to my right is Councillor Richard Graham.
CLR GRAHAM:Hello.
MS ALLAN: Weconstitute the committee today and we're here to listen to what you've got to say. We are assisted today by Alan Kleidon from the department who is a transport planner and we have read your submission or the submission by Oldfield Knott on your behalf and are happy to hear anything additional you would like to say to the submission.
MR LEMMA:Okay. Well, thanks for the opportunity obviously.It's always good to speak with the people that put these things forward so that you can hear the arguments on both sides I guess.
MS ALLAN:Can I just clarify? Our o e is to be quite impartial.
MR LEMMA:Yes.
MS ALLAN:We're providing a set of recommendations to the commission.
MR LEMMA:Okay.
MS ALLAN:We don't represent the people who wrote this. We're here today to hear what you've got to say.
MR LEMMA: Okay. All right.So you're not specifically endorsing this in any way at the moment.
77 MS ALLAN:No. Our role is more even-handed.It's more to hear what you've got to say and look at what they've said and to give the commission back adviceabout what we think should go forward, given what people have said about the proposal.
MR LEMMA:Sure, okay. Well, our submission is pretty generalised there.I think you've sort of got the gist of what we're trying to say along the way.
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MR LEMMA: The only thing in addition that we would add to it is thatobviously bringing the road closer to the accommodation, or the short-stay accommodation,contributes more to noise effect on the accommodation as well. So therefore if the thing does gothrough, then there would be an added burden that would be placed on Con as theoperator to soundproof all the bedrooms that sort of face the Canning Highway side becausethe road would be obviously closer to the building itself.
In going through what we've already submitted, you know, there actually arenine parking bays that are affected by the proposed road widening or resumption of landalong there and the swimming pool is obviously affected as well. What would have tohappen there is those bays would have to be relocated elsewhere and they can't physically be located onthe site. If something did happen they would have to be relocated on the SleightRoad verge area which is what Con currently has, which is not indicated on this plan but ifI point here, he's got eight car bays on that verge currently at the moment which he hadwith council approval.
He's got 46 rooms or 46 units in the building, of which, including these eightbays on the verge, there's 35 on the site, so it makes up a total of43 bays for 46 rooms. The carparking is very heavily utilised because thisI is fornearly 95 or 100 per cent of his clients drive because they're family-orientated the units. Some of them have a separate bedroomwith a divan in it.
MR BAGIOS:Self-contained.
MR LEMMA:Full-size kitchens, so they're all self-contained.
MS ALLAN:Self-contained and they're for family stays.
MR LEMMA: Yes. People come up from the country, from the regional areas and it's not a coach tourist sort of venue, so it doesn't cater for coach buses or anything like that.It is a very motorised-reliant development. That's one of the major restrictions onthis site.It's not for people who sort of fly-in, fly-out and are sort of shuttled to this and then shuttled back to the airport unfortunately.
MS ALLAN: So the visitors rely on their cars.
MR LEMMA: The visitors rely on their cars, yes, and it's pretty much full capacity.
78 MS ALLAN:Is it?
MR BAGIOS: Yes, all the time.
MR LEMMA: Yes.
MS ALLAN: So what, about 80 per cent.
MR BAGIOS: At least. Over 80 per cent.
MS ALLAN: All year round.
MR LEMMA: All year round, yes.
MR BAGIOS: We're having a very good year this year.
MS ALLAN:That's good. Do people arrive at particular times of the day ornight or of the week, you know, Saturday, Sunday?
MR BAGIOS: Yes, Saturday, Sunday.
MS ALLAN: Any particular time that they
MR BAGIOS: We've got a caretaker on the premises so we do24-hour service.
MS ALLAN:Right. And people come at any time.
MR BAGIOS: Yes, any time. A lot of Eastern Statespeople come as welldrive over.
MS ALLAN: Drive over. Yes, it's a very good location, isn'tit?
MR LEMMA:It is. You know, we did it up Con's had it for 20-odd years, since 85.
MR BAGIOS: We've got a four star rating at the moment.
MS ALLAN:Is that when it was built, 85.
MR LEMMA: No, no.It was preI think it's late sixties.
CLR GRAHAM:If you had to move the swimming pool, where would you moveit to?
79 MR LEMMA: There is a landscaped area just over herewhich, if anything, it would need to go in that pocket there.It would require the whole swimming pool though to be demolished and obviously rebuilt in the alternative area. We did sort of look atthat possibility.If push came to shove, then that would have to berebuilt in that sort of corner there and it would be a long, narrower type of pool, more a lap-typepool. As well all these car bays virtually would be lost across the front. There's 10 in there now but out of the 10,nine would go.
MR BAGIOS: We've got a disabled unit right there too.
MR LEMMA:That's right, but all of those would need to be sort of relocated on that verge and I think there may be concerns how close you can back out ontoSleight Road that close to the corner and so forth too.So that's all some things you might have to take into consideration.
CLR GRAHAM: Okay, and just so I understand how that intersectionworks there, if you're heading north along Sleight Road and you were going to turn left ontoCanning Highway, so alongside of the hotel turning left, do you do that at a traffic light or is there aslip lane there at the moment?
MR LEMMA: On the corner that's a slip lane, yes.
CLR GRAHAM: There's a slip lane there at the moment.
MR LEMMA: Yes.
MS ALLAN:Frank, is there anything else you would like to say?
MR LEMMA: Nothing I don't think, unless you have anything else to add?
MR BAGIOS:Not really.I'd prefer not to go ahead with it.
MR LEMMA: I mean, Con was saying earlier to me, it's not about money or anything or compensation or anything like that.It's just that he needs a functioning facility. He needs all those car bays.In fact he would like more car bays if he can, which he has the option to obviously extend the carparking along - - -
MR BAGIOS: And there's no other places that we can buy up to relocate cars, it's so expensive the land out there.
MR LEMMA:It's not as if he can go and approach the guy next day, "I'll buy your land off you," or anything like that, so there's no spare available land anywhere in the area.
MS ALLAN:It's double story, isn't it?
MR LEMMA:It's three storey. There's 47 units.
80 MS ALLAN: 47 units, yes.
MR LEMMA: That's sort of sits over the top here and also over in here as well.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MR LEMMA:I think we added 10 units in 99-2000.
MR BAGIOS: We did a good facelift on it.
MS ALLAN: Also it has been renovated all the way through, inside and outside.
MR LEMMA: Absolutely.All the rooms have been refurbished, retiled, new fixtures, fittings.
CLR GRAHAM: Those people who are staying at the hotel, say they want to go into Perth or something or Fremantle in the other direction, do they tend to only drive or do they sometimes take public transport.
MR BAGIOS: There are times they take public transport.I say, "If you go to town you'd be better off with public transport because it takes about seven minutes to get to town."
MS ALLAN: On a bus.
MR BAGIOS:On the bus. There's no other stop. Where you get on , here's no other stop.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: On and off, yes.
MR BAGIOS:It's fantastic for transport.
CLR GRAHAM:Is that what your residentsI mean, can you break it down what number of your residents would drive those sort of trips.
MR BAGIOS:But it's not a matter of people going to town,It's a matter of people arriving to the premises, you know.If you come in with a car, you come in with a car and that's it.
CLR GRAHAM:I see what you mean.
MR BAGIOS: But if you want to leave your car there and you want to sort of - a lot of country people don't want to drive, so they leave their car there and take a bus to town.
CLR GRAHAM: Yes.
MR BAGIOS: We get a lot of south-west people, Bunbury, Busselton, Margaret River all the way to Manjimup, right along the coastpeople from everywhere really.
81 lesser proportion from the Eastern MS ALLAN:But most are from WA and then there are a States. What is it, about two-thirds,one-third?
MR BAGIOS:I'd say about that.
MS ALLAN: And there's a few -
MR BAGIOS: You need at least 40 carbays.
CLR GRAHAM: How many unitsagain.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: 46.
MR BAGIOS: 46, 47.
CLR GRAHAM: And how many carbays have you got at the moment?
MR BAGIOS:I think about 43.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: There was43 bays; 35 on site and eight on the verge.
MR LEMMA: Yes, 46.
MR BAGIOS: The beauty about it,is we do get sporting people, out the frontis where they park their bus and that takes most ofthe carpark. So when we do get sporting - -
CLR GRAHAM: Like teams.
MR BAGIOS: Teams, yes. This iswhere they take the front carpark, so thebus parks - -
MR LEMMA: Right here.
MS ALLAN:It parks here.
MR BAGIOS: We're very lucky not tohave any customers park on the street and youcan't park because the ranger is there everyday, so it's very restricted.
MR LEMMA: We actually have asituation where we do have tandem bays now,which is obviously not very wise because you tend to park someonein but they leave their keys at the office and -
MR BAGIOS: Extreme emergency.
MS ALLAN: Yes, but generally there'senough parking.
82 MR BAGIOS:(indistinct) affect the business and the asset of the property definitely if you put the road so close to the building and the road is busy (indistinct).
MR LEMMA: You would actually have up to 12 units affected by the noise.
MR BAGIOS:In the Melville area we're the only motel I think, so it's not as if they can go somewhere else. The Raffles has gone.
MS ALLAN:Right. So it's quite a radius, isn't it, before you get to another one?
MR BAGIOS:It's is, yes. Fremantle is the next one.
MS ALLAN: South Perth I guess, Como.
MR BAGIOS: South Perth, Como.
MS ALLAN: Yes.All right.Look, thanks for coming in.It's really good to clarify these concerns that you might, so we appreciate your coverage Frank andCon.
MR BAGIOS:That's why I brought Frank. He knows what he's talking about better than I do.It's much easier for me.
MR LEMMA:It would affect the business.
MR BAGIOS: It would, it would affect the business.If we can't get out of it, we can't get out of it.
MS ALLAN: No, that's very clear. Thanks very much.
MR LEMMA: Thank you very much..
MR BAGIOS: Thank you for listening.
MS ALLAN: Thanks for coming in, we appreciate it.You know there will probably be a timetable of what's happening? We probably will report to the commission later this month and the commission will make its determination and recommendation to the minister and she will make her decision by the end of the year, possibly a bit earlier. Then it will go to parliament and probably not until about May of next year will anything be decided.
MR LEMMA: Okay.
MS ALLAN: Thanks very much.
MR LEMMA: Thank you. See you later.
83 MR CLIFFORD AND MRS PATRICIA TARRANT
MS ALLAN: Good afternoon.
MS TARRANT: Hello.
MS ALLAN: How are you?
CLR GRAHAM: Good afternoon.
MS ALLAN:Sorry to keep you, we might be running a littlelate, so my apologies for that. ActuallyI think we've made up time. We either runslightly late or we make it up, so fortunately we have made it up - almost but notquite.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: 15 minutesbehind.
MS ALLAN: Yep It's Patricia and CliffordTarrant?
MR TARRANT: That's it.
MS ALLAN:Yes. We're the hearings committee obviously set upto hear what you've got to say today. My name is Verity Allan, I representthe commission and on my left is Susan Kreemer-Pickford and on my right is Councillor RichardGraham.
CLR GRAHAM: Hello.
MS ALLAN: We're ready to start whenever you are.
MS TARRANT:Well, we're just wondering why there is a need to takethe land off us. I have taken the time to measure the road and the wayit widens. Originally it was 20 feet our road. By the time it comes - you go to turn around it's31 feet and there is still 19 and a half feet from our fence. So I'm a little bit concernedabout why you need to take the land off us.
My reasons are this: that the road is already wideenough -I believe so. We don't get a lot of traffic down the road.In fact I was in the office for over two hours preparingthis because I am not a typist and I'm not a draftsman, so ittook me hours to do it and I didn't see one vehicle come in or one vehicle go out either.
CLR GRAHAM: Excuse me, can I just ask what's the closest intersection to Canning Highway.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Drawing number 13.
CLR GRAHAM: 13.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Yes.
84 MS ALLAN:So when you said you drew it up, you measured theexisting road.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Lot 14, next to Clydesdale on the bottom page.
MS TARRANT:Yes. It's a very - well, you couldn't call it a drawing.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:Number 14, left of Clydesdale on drawing 13.
CLR GRAHAM:Right, thanks.
MS TARRANT:We don't get a lot of traffic in our street. The only peoplewho use our street mainly are the ones that live at the bottom by usand even those very often will use North Lake Road because you've got the lights, you see,and it's a far safer way of getting there. So most people use that. We use it butyou know, and that's one of the reasonsI feel the cost is going to outweigh the usage of it.Norma Road and North Lake Road is very popular and, as I said, very little traffic goes on there.
We also have our land strata'd and I am concernedthat it will affect the strata, so that's another reason. We've got (indistinct) and whateverthere and, well, we just think that it's generalising; that every road must be exactly the same width for peopleto come out. At the same time our road is not used.It's a very quiet street and you're just generalising with every one of the roads. We don'tparticularly want to lose our land and we would expect if we do we obviously will fall in line withwhatever, we're not going to cause a fuss over it but we would expect good compensation.I took some photographs-
MR TARRANT:There's also Telstra there as well. That's another issue,
MS TARRANT:Also there's Telstra on the side of there.
MR TARRANT:Can you pick it up on that photo.
MS TARRANT:I've got a photograph there.I didn't write "Telstra" but it picks it up there.
MR TARRANT:That dome.
MS ALLAN:Telstra dome.
MS TARRANT:There's a Telstra dome there and there's drainage nextSo to it as well. you wouldn't be able to cut in there becauseit probably -
MR TARRANT:That's got to be altered, that's forure.
MS TARRANT: Youcan have that with that as well.
85 MR TARRANT:An interesting point is peak periodAlan was there.At peak period in 5 o'clock in the evening there was nothing came off our street. Westood there for 30 minutes.
MR KLEIDON: Maybe - yes.
MS ALLAN: Yes, that's clear.
MS TARRANT: Thank you.
MS ALLAN: That's very clear, your sketch is very clear.
MS TARRANT: Righto. Now, do you want to keep this?
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: We'll get copies made and give that one back to you. Yes, thank you.
MS TARRANT: Righto. Do you want photographs? You can have the photographs?
MS ALLAN:If you don't need them..
MS TARRANT: You can have them, I've got copies.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Thank you very much.
MS ALLAN:All right. We'll take a copy of the sketch and the notes and give those back to you. Are there any questions, Richard?
CLR GRAHAM: No, I don't have any.
MS ALLAN: Susan?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: No, I'm happy with that, thank you.
MS ALLAN: The issue of truncation on the corners along Canning Highway has come up earlier in the piece today. You know, .a couple of other people have had similar concerns.
MS TARRANT:I suppose they would, yes, it's natural.
MS ALLAN:So I think you made the comment that there sort of seems to be a general biased approach to it which I guess relates to changed traffic standards over a period of years since the original MRS was written.But having said that, it's a question thatas I said, it has been raised earlier in the day and that gives us reason, in addition to what you've talked to us about, to I guess go back and talk to officers about it as well.
86 MS TARRANT:Yes.
MS ALLAN: At the moment Ican't answer why this truncation is required from your property but we'll take on board your comments and your concerns and the servicesthat are in the verge.
MS TARRANT: That's it,all the services would have to be moved. There's two lots of services in that verge theretwo lots. There's the big - is that the water one or something.
MR TARRANT:No, that is Telstra there.
MS TARRANT:There's Telstra there and there's a big, greatI think they're the Water Corporation. Somebody comes there anyway and they work there.So, you know, nothing could be put on there anyway unless you want to take- -
MS ALLAN:Relocation I suppose.
MS TARRANT:Relocation anyway.
MS ALLAN:Yes. All right. Well, that was very clear, so thanks very much for you advice. We appreciate it.
MS TARRANT:You're welcome.
87 MR DAVID VAN DEN DRIES AND MR LINDSAYBROADHURST Representing Main Roads WA
MS ALLAN:Hello.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Hello, David, how areyou?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Not bad. How are yougoing?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Good, thank you.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: David Van den Dries.
MS ALLAN: Verity Allan. Nice to meet you.
CLR GRAHAM: Hello. Richard Graham.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Hello, Richard.
MR BROADHURST: Lindsay Broadhurst.
MS ALLAN:Hello, Lindsay. Verity Allan. And you know Susan.
MR BROADHURST: Hello, Susan.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Hello, Lindsay.
MS ALLAN: And you know Alan.
MR BROADHURST: We know Alan. How are you going,Alan?
MR KLEIDON: You're meant to be talking to these peopletoday.
MS ALLAN: Thanks for coming in today and welcome. We're in your hands.We have read your submission and were happy to make a start whenever youlike.
MR BROADHURST: Yes, thanks for the opportunity. You have obviously received our submission.Since that time we have also had the opportunity toreview the concepts in more detail.
MS ALLAN: Yes, good.
88 MR VAN DEN DRIES: (indistinct) but that was one of the reasons for our submission, in that obviously you're aware that the planning for this project has been extended over a number of years.It initially started with Main Roads back in 99-2000 and with the change of the roles it was transferred to the DPI around about 2002 and obviously has reached this point in time.Since that change there have been some changes to the concept.Main Roads wasn't able to sort of get the opportunity to review that concept before the MRS process was initiated and hence our previous comments in the submission.
Since then we have had the opportunity to review the concept. We received it a week and a half or two ago.
MR BROADHURST: Friday week ago.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: We managed to expedite it through our design area and we received some comment through our design area and obviously we will provide a summary on some of our concerns which are in the advice that we just provided - or that we're providing back to DPIwith a copy to you guys.Before we go through some of those comments were there any issue that you needed to clarify?
MS ALLAN:Just to clarify.Main Roads really were last involvedthere were the GHD reports in 2000-2001.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's correct.
MS ALLAN: And then the portfolio changes.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's correct.
MS ALLAN:So really you were involved in it quite intimately for a long period of time and then it changed - - -
MR BROADHURST: Obviously there have been some change in staff and personnel obviously in that time as well.
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MR BROADHURST:Personally myself I wasn't involved in that area when that work was being done.I think Dave was working in a different area at the time.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's right.
MR BROADHURST: And some of the people came to DPI and continued to work on that process and some new people have worked on it, et cetera.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Because the study has been going for so long, you can't keep the same staff, as you know.
89 MS ALLAN: That's a shame.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: That's right.
MS ALLAN: No, that's understood.I just wanted to clarify that you were involved init earlier on.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Sure, most definitely.
MS ALLAN:So it's very useful actually to have you here because of that longevity of your involvement.
MR BROADHURST: Normally we would hope that we would able to provide comments before the MRS is initiated before any of the issues can settledresolved before we get to this stage. For various reasons that hasn't happened in this instance butperhaps we need to work through the issues we've got - - -
MR VAN DEN DRIES: We are continuously prompting DPI to forwardthe concepts to us as soon as possible once they're completed so wedon't get down to the same dilemma we're in today.
MS ALLAN:That's useful to know too, so in terms of process it's not going to be a repeat again.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's something we're all trying to avoid.
MR BROADHURST: Most definitely.
MS ALLAN: That's a good overview. Your current submission, the one you've tabled to
MR BROADHURST:Essentially what it involves is a covering letter and an attachment, a more detailed review of the concept coming out through ourdesign area but obviously there's a number of comments in there.Some of those won't have impact on the reservation but our view is that a number are likely to if they are to be incorporated into the concepts that are being used to set the reservation.I suppose it's those ones we tried to cover in the covering letter in terms of the issues that wethink need to be addressed and the issues which we think are likely to have some impact on the current reservation.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: There are those dot points in the letter which are the main ones that have an impact on the reservation.
MS ALLAN: Then the other ones the design review table, that's a series of - a longer series of
90 MR VAN DEN DRIES:It's going through each drawing at a time, which really again down to detail. What we do, we generally seek the designer from DPI to go through to comments and answer questions that have been raised. The project manager at Main Roads would then agree or disagree.If he disagrees then we continue to liaise with DPI.
MS ALLAN: Okay.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Okay. So it's a process which weit's only a design review, it's not a road safety audit because a road safety audit would probablypick up more issues which we didn't go into but we were just looking at it as a designreview.
MR BROADHURST: Do we have a copy of this for Alan?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Yes, I have.I have given Alanbut only the first two pages.
MR KLEIDON: That's fine, Dave.
MR BROADHURST:I suppose our thought was to go through each of these points, eight points, just to sort of (indistinct) width of the reservation. The first one is the provision for cyclists in terms of providing a sort of a shoulder area outside the bus lane for cyclists. That's the first issue. The second issue is the access arrangements or strategy for about two-thirds of Canning Highway. The access strategy has involved cul-de-sacs, left inlet turn arrangements at a number of intersections but the section from Petra to Preston Point generally the concept provides for full access through all the existing side roads. Obviously that has some issues with median widths in terms of providing for full movements. Obviously if there is the opportunity to rationalise some of those that it improves safety, traffic flow et cetera.
The thirdpointissort of partially related to that; thatif you're not able to achieve rationalisation of some of those intersections then we need to provide for full movements at side roads. The current concept provides for -
MR VAN DEN DRIES: A three metre median, which is indicating to be a kerbed cross- section and that's not enough refuge.It could potentially be enough refuge for a car coming from Canning Highway wishing to turn right into a side road but in actual fact it's the vehicle coming from the side street that wish to turn rightthree metres is not enough (indistinct) so that's why we need a minimum of 5.5 metres.
MS ALLAN:Right` okay.
MR BROADHURST: The fourth point is to do with the actual traffic lane widths in terms of I suppose our general thoughts would be that from a plan concept point of view we should be using a desirable standard of 3.5, recognising in some very constrained sections due to space that may be difficult to achieve and we may have to live with something less than that. But we shouldn't sort of probably just apply that standard to the whole section.
91 MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's correct. That's correct, yes.
MR BROADHURST:The fifth point is to do with the verge width.I suppose similar issue there in terms of 3.5 -
MR VAN DEN DRIES:3.5 was adopted.
MR ROBINSON:(indistinct) it should be 5.1 or around five for the entirelength. Obviously there's constrained sections (indistinct) providethat for the entire length.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: What's therationale for 5.1 metres?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Under the utility codes of practice it actually indicatesthat anything off this sort of road - this is a 5.1 metre corridorand also it's a very highly serviced corridor. We also have to look at footpaths, signages,lighting, relocation of services.3.5, you only use that in a situation of reservesbetween 12 to 16 metre reservations and this isin accordance with the utility codes of practice whichI've currently got right here.
MS KREEIIIIER-PICKFORD:No, that's okay.
MR BROADHURST:Essentially there's an agreementI mean, water goes so far from the boundary.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: This is actually a cross-section which has been given as per (indistinct) regional road reservations and you've got yourgreenfields and you've got your 3.5, which is like your subdivisional type roads.
MS ALLAN: This is quite new, isn't it?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:It's a later document.
MS ALLAN: This is to cabinet too.It sort of supersedes - it sort of fascinates mebecause we used to always talk aboutshared servicing from a planning point of view.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: It's interesting.This document back in 1991 also quotes 5.1 for Canning Highway.
MS ALLAN: Okay.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:For Canning Highway 5.1. So I'm not sure how orwhy it got down to 3.5.I just don't understand.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Do we know what itis currently? What's existing on Canning Highway generally?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:It varies.It varies, yes.
92 MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Okay.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: But the planning concept actually indicates 3.5 right through the whole entire length, if you look at the cross-sections that have been adopted.
MS ALLAN: Okay. Thanks for that.It's an interesting concept in non-cooperation between utility providersyou know, it goes away from the concept of shared services, doesn'tit?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Also it's interesting that the ICC committee, which is the MPG ICC committee, also are saying they are a bit worried because not enough provision has been allowed for in verge widths to cater for such corridors to be built and they are a bit worried that planning doesn't really look at it deeply enough.
MS ALLAN:I agree with that, yes. Yes, I think it's an interesting problem, yes.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Sure.
MS ALLAN:It's much broader than this issue.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Obviously you can go down to 3.5 but only if you're missing a heritage site or heritage building and then you need to go back to the (indistinct) but not adopt it for the whole entire length.
MR BROADHURST: The dot page over the page is to do with the planning for and the operations of the bus queue jump lanes and I thought it would be best ifI could let David explain that. You might need to use the whiteboard, Dave, in a couple of instances.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Yes,I might have to.Basically the concept that has been drawn has indicated a bus queue jump lane.I will get one of the drawings out.
CLR GRAHAM: Perhaps we understand.I mean, I understand what you mean by this.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Do you?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Yes.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:You're happy to proceed with
CLR GRAHAM: (indistinct) green light.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Up to the green light it's actually a taper but you also need if you've got a green light and the bus is in the queue jump lane, travelling at the same speed he needs a four second travel time before he starts merging in.
CLR GRAHAM: Yes.
93 MR VAN DEN DRIES: Now, there's impacts on that on side road connections aswell because if you look on Carrington Road - ifI can use the pointer up there there are other issues. There's Carrington Street , you've got a bus queuejump lane, then you apply your four seconds and then you apply your taper youvirtually run into this bus abatement. Secondly, there's also a bus abatement here that alreadyexists and gets operated now. I have used it a couple of weeks ago.Also this street here, likewise on a couple of other streets, it's actually on the taper and we want thoseside roads to be closed because you can appreciate the bus is merginginto traffic and also this person in the car who (indistinct) trying to get in front.So some of the access for cyclists may be looked at aswell. There are a lot of access issues.
Here you've got a situation where you've got amajor shopping centre, as you're well aware. You've got a bus queue jump lane coming through here,the bus is probably accelerating from his stop but also you've got the car in themiddle maybe blocking the through traffic trying to get into the shopping centre. There's a bit of anissue there as far as the safety aspect. More importantly for this area here, ifyou've got a bus queue jump lane the car could be in front of the bus, he may not be able to gobecause he's flashing the bus to go because he wishes to go left. Here you've got asituation where you've got persons walking across here on the parallel cycle with the greencycle.All this conflicts, raising the issue about the operation of these bus queue jump lanes.
CLR GRAHAM: Are these bus queue jump lanes operatingelsewhere?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:There's only oneit's not a bus queue jump lane.In actual fact there's a bus lane been developed in Shepparton Road andobviously Main Roads are monitoring that because they had some issues. There is one newjust been built recently and it's going to be open very shortly.It's for the south-bound on-ramp from South Street. What they have developed is they have developed aleft-turn pocket for general traffic but then the bus lane actually develops directly after that.
CLR GRAHAM: This is going from South Street south ontoKwinana Freeway.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Onto Kwinana Freeway, yes.
CLR GRAHAM: There's not many buses that do that.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:No, but that's going to the future bus station which is going to be developed shortly with a bridge to be built over Kwinana Freeway.So you will start seeing there's a left-turn lane and then there's a bus queue jump lane.So you can see that's what's going to be developed. Then again if you start developing that,that will have a quite high impact in these corridors which affects more properties andbuildings.So some balance and trade-off has got to be hereit's quite significant.
94 Another issue that can be raised here as well is the fact that the length of pockethas to be determined by the length of storage in these two lanes.If the length of storage in these two lanes are gone beyond the pocket, then the pocket needs to be lengthenedwhich means it has an additional impact on these properties.
CLR GRAHAM: That's the storage (indistinct) queuing.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:The storage (indistinct) so there are a lot of issues that need to be resolved in this thing that need to be looked at.I'm not sure that has been done.
MS ALLAN:Yes. Well, I mean certainly the number of cars doesn't look like it's going to increase over a period of time necessarily but the number of buses will.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Mm. Also the fact that you've got the (indistinct) this one here.If you have got that problem with a car is blocking abus in the queue jump lane, obviously there is no effect of the bus queue jump lane any more.If you wish to build a high entry angle (indistinct) island there, then (indistinct) will be knocked as a result of thatbecause you just can't help it.So, as Isaid, there's a lot of issues which we're raising as possible impacts on the reservations.
MS ALLAN:Thanks for that, David. So there are two issues really with that bullet point whether to take less
MR BROADHURST: The infrastructure planning, the operations - - -
MR VAN DEN DRIES: And the length of the pockets.
MS ALLAN: There are quite a few issues in that point really. The side issue access is another one.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Exactly right, yes.
MS ALLAN: And you're suggesting that any that are with that diverging, merging taper should be
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Cul-de-sac'd off.
MS ALLAN:Is it for safety reasons or is it for -
MR VAN DEN DRIES:It is for safety reasons I would think.
MS ALLAN: What's the safety issue there?
95 MR VAN DEN DRIES: The fact that the poor bus driver has got a green light, is going through the traffic lightsit could be at the same speed as the parallel traffic speed, it may not be.It depends if there's a guy turning left,it could slow down.But he could be accelerating again through the traffic lights. Then he has got to start -he's got four seconds of travel time to start making a decision to turn left and allof a sudden this guy and a lot of young kids do it"I don't want to be behind a bus, I'll get in front of the bus," andhe's got to counteract that sort of conflict as well. So by rights that's anissue of safety where the bus driver has got to think of a number of factors in his driving.
MS ALLAN:It's a risk issue really, isn't it?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:It is, yes - well, it's safety.
MS ALLAN: Yes, safety. Okay, thanks for that.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: So there are quite a few aspects there.
MR BROADHURST:I think the next dot point we covered.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: We did actually. That was the length ofpockets.
MR BROADHURST:Right and left-turn lanes, making sure they're sufficient, making sure the queuing isn't going to block people wishing to access thoseand the last issue I think
MR VAN DEN DRIES: The splitter, no, I haven't. The splitter islandslook, it may be minor but when you draw these things up it does affect the(indistinct) you know yourself, Susan, and somewhere like on Yeovil Crescent you've got somethinglike an eight metre long splitter island.
CLR GRAHAM:I'm sorry, what's a splitter island?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: A splitter island. You know how you've got a side streetand you've a little island which is a pedestrian refugeI'll point one out to you.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:It's like a median on a side road.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: This is a big one, that's a splitter island.
CLR GRAHAM: Sorry, what road is that?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: That's Cunningham Street and there's an existing splitter island here.
CLR GRAHAM:It's like a triangle, is it?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: No. It's just a parallel
96 CLR GRAHAM: Like a median just before the intersection.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Which controls the intersection. So it allows movements (indistinct)
CLR GRAHAM:Right.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That does affect the land requirements but also there are the high entry angle ones, which I'll just point to. A classic one would be inthis one here (indistinct) if we start generating to correct size and getting correct offsets you start pushing this kerb out closer to here, which you're then minimising your verge, which means then you start looking at the land impacts again.So when you start constructing these things, drawing them up correctly, as a designer you've got to make sure that these splitter islands do cater for things like an area for walking, for pedestrians at crosswalks, also for signage, that type of infrastructure, otherwise there's no space to put them in. A classic one was this one here. That's extremely sub-standard, that one there, extremely sub-standard. (indistinct) you start then looking at impacts on that particular building there (indistinct).In my experience when I used to work at DPI I made sure I drew those correctly.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: So is the reason they need to be larger is to accommodate the actual crossing of people who cross into the island and then cross across it?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Crossing across it and also the signs that go on it as well.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:I've recently come across this issue where you've got these islands being designed and what happens is that if people are crossing from this road it's no longer appropriate just to put them on the island and cross them across.It's actually got to be at perpendicular to where they're crossing.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: That's correct.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: So that's the reason these islands are actually getting and bigger and don't work as being sub-standard. These tend to now be cut out so that people in wheelchairs can actually come through, they don't bump up a kerb.That's actually kerbed here and kerbed here, therefore that's flush and that's flush, so they have to cross in a continual path and not be affected by traffic flow. So that's making the requirement for islands to be bigger than previously to accommodate the pedestrian movements,That would be correct?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: That would be correct, 100 per cent correct, spot on. Thank you.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:No, it's all right.I've just come across that issue and it's like people are saying, "Well, why did they need to get biggerT and "Now we understand," because they're trying to make things better for pedestrians rather than pedestrians going up there, then back there and round the traffic pole. They're trying to get over that issue.
97 MS ALLAN: Yes, it makes a lot of sense.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:And as you can see, over a period of timelet's say from 1999 to 2005 the standards have changed quite a lot.
MS ALLAN: Yes, they have.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: And unfortunately the design concept which would be presented is still the same as back in 1999.It's never been updated to reflect the latest standards.
MS ALLAN: Right.So you're saying that these designs would need to reflect the later standards?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Exactly right, yes. One other point-
MR BROADHURST:I think (indistinct)
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Unfortunately I've lost my green highlighter thing,it's gone somewhere, someone's got it.No, it's okay, I've got it marked on one of the documents. I think Richard may have it.
CLR GRAHAM: No.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:I'll explain these previous drawings. This is a GHD document which is copies of DPI drawings even though they've got (indistinct). Two issues I've got to raise actually. From Reynolds Road heading eastwards to the bridge the planning design concept that was also mentioned in the actual triple R program says it will be six lanes, two of which will be bus priority lanes, which makes it four lanes of general traffic and that's what GHD's document has shown here.
But on concepts presented to us for the MRS it actually shows that the eastbound traffic lane is still three lanes (indistinct) traffic with a bus lane and westbound to be two lanes with a bus lane, which is contrary to the work done previously in the actualthing. So therefore we may have gone too wide a reservation, you know what I mean, or wecould fit in other services like cycling lanes, that type of stuff.
CLR GRAHAM:But is there not a reason for that?Isn't thatI would assume and correct me if I'm wrong - because there's more flows of traffic in one way orthe other at more concentrated periods of time?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: (indistinct) travel on a road, I think Canning Highway to be a shocker of a road from here through to Riseley Street, especially at night-time,it's a nightmare.Also it's a nightmare going westbound as well in peak hour in the morning both. The study that has been done by GHDand the triple R work was done back in 1991
98 CLR GRAHAM: Sorry, who's triple R?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Roads Reserve Review - back in 1991 has identified it to be only two lanes of traffic in both directions.While I'm alluding to is that there is a disparity or a change in the thinking of what has been done back in 2000, which was really the basis of this MRS amendment done by GHD to this. The only change in this area is that the bus lane has now gone from the median to the outside.
CLR GRAHAM: Right.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:But the actual rationale of it has changed and we don't know why.
MS ALLAN:Let's just look at this.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Sure.
MS ALLAN: This is 35 metres from the edge of the vergeyou know, verge to verge. Here the verges are 3.5 each, not 5.1 as you're saying.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's correct. Exactly right, yes.
MS ALLAN: So they said 3.5.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:3.5, yes, that's what we're criticising, yes.
MS ALLAN: And that might be where the current 3.5 came from. The outside lane isor whatever you call it; the inside lane or the outside lane?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Outside lane.
MS ALLAN:Outside lane 4.7 metres, which compromises probablywhat did you say for cyclists?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:1.2I thinks 4.2 on the
MS ALLAN:Is it?I can't read it now. 4.2. So you're allocating 1.2 for cyclists and
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Only three metres for buses which is not really desirable.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:That's the 4.2 sort of shared, not one and the other.4.2 is shared.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Yes, shared.It's not really encouraged at all but that used to be the design standards back in the nineties,
MS ALLAN: That would be a safety issue, wouldn't it?
99 MR VAN DEN DRIES: Of course it is, that's exactly right.
MS ALLAN: Then we've got - - -
MR VAN DEN DRIES: The generaltraffic lane.
MS ALLAN: What's that, 3.3- -
MR BROADHURST:That's the mediantwo medians to separate the buses and then the median.
MS ALLAN: So you've got 3.5 for the buses and then you've got twothree-metre medians.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Mm. Generally it's two general trafficlanes in both directions. That was the concept but in this concept it's threelanes in one direction and two lanes in another.
MR BROADHURST: Three in the eastbound direction and twoin the westbound.
MR VAN DEN DRIES; Two westbound.
MR BROADHURST:I'm not sure why that
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Why it has changed from this concept I'm not sure, so we're just raising that as an issue.
MS ALLAN: Where is it three and two, sorry, I'm not sure. Is it three and two-
MR VAN DEN DRIES: That's from Reynolds Road through to the bridge.
MS ALLAN:Right.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: So, hang on, it's three lanes going eastbound.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: It's three lanes heading westbound - eastbound I mean and two lanes heading westbound.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Okay.
MR BROADHURST: Which I think basically replaces what's there.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Okay.
MR BROADHURST: Eastbound to westbound.
100 MR VAN DEN DRIES: So something has changed. Also in the way they've developed this concept here, generally you have your express lane, which is your median lane, to be continuous all the way through and not split. They've shown here the median lane splitting, which is not really practical or correct.It should have actually been the outside lane to be split.(indistinct) that length it's about 200 metres before you start doing a taper. So once you start applying that it will an have implication on yourreservation as well.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Just explain that again, David, which splits.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Sure. Currently what they've done here is the median lane, they've split that lane into two lanes right at the intersection.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Okay.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Generally what happens is your outside lane is what actually splits. That's generally the slower vehicle lane, slower traffic lane.So the outside lane actually splits into two and your express lane, which is the median lane, will continue all the way through as one continuous lane. So there's a concept error here but when you do develop this, generally you allow roughly about 200 metres before you start developing the splitting, so at least drivers know exactly what they're doing. They just don't come up to atraffic light and split sort of thing, you just don't do that.
MS ALLAN: That's a good comment. Thanks for that.
MR BROADHURST: Are there any other issues, David?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: That's basically itI think.
MR BROADHURST:I think they were the main ones.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:I think they were the main ones, yes.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: I've just got a question on the cycle lanes.You said an absolute minimum of 1.2. What do you think is desirable, reasonable?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: About 1.5.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:1.5, yes.
MS ALLAN: And what would you say about the lane width adjacent to that then?
101 MR VAN DEN DRIES:If it was a bus lane it would be 3.5 for a bus lane and if it's the from the section between Rise ley Street through to Petra Street that would alsoneed to be 3.5 because that's where (indistinct) vehicles would be driving on, which is thesemi-trailer type vehicles up to 19 metres, semi-trailers that service your shopping centres or your businesses along the route.All your rubbish trucks, that type of stuff, would be utilising that lane, so you really want that to definitely be a 3.5 metre lane.
MS ALLAN: Which one was it?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Rise ley to Petra.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Rise ley to Petra, yes. So (indistinct) vehicle lane should definitely be 3.5. They have to be 3.5.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: That's the inside traffic lane or the right-turn pocketlane?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:No, no, I'm talking about the outside lane.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: You're talking about the outside lane, right.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: So you've got your
MR BROADHURST: The kerbside lane.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: The kerbside lane, that's correct.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:The kerbside lane is 3.5 and then the inside lane is 3.5 as well?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Well, no, that - -
MR BROADHURST:It'sI suppose desirable.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Desirably we would like it to be 3.5 but- -
MR BROADHURST: (indistinct) constraints.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: We could drop it down but desirably we'd like it to be 3.5.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Okay. Then when the right pocket is developed the lane is also 3.5?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's your desirable but you definitely want a two-metre median for - you have to have a two-metremedian for your pedestrian refuge. So we can't adopt 1.5 or 1.8 which has been indicated on the concepts.It definitely needs to be two metres. All the points ones and point twos add up.
102 MS ALLAN:In terms of desirable verge widths you're saying it should be -
MR VAN DEN DRIES:5.1, as per the code.
MS ALLAN: And medians are two plus
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Well, no. Two only applies at right-turn pockets. Right turns.
MS ALLAN: Yes.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:You can understand the process here - before Lindsay talked about that. From here through to Preston Point Road all the side roads have generally got left-ins and left-outs the whole entire length.That's two-thirds of the whole study area. One-third hasn't and the issue is from this point onwards, from Preston Point Road heading westward you do have these access points getting ad hoc (indistinct) here, there, here, here, all access points. As a result of this, this median, if we decided to rationalise the access points as we have done to the east and close some of these off you could actually reduce the median down to two metres and you could then save space, but if you want to keep these side ways open, then we need to have 5.5 metre medians.
MS ALLAN: So what did you call them right in and right out, sideways.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: When it'sfull movement at the side road.When it'sfull movement, yes.
MR BROADHURST: So if you're just efin and left out obviously you can reduce your median widths.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Then no-one is turning right out.
MS ALLAN: Okay.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Because you can then rationalise your- -
MR BROADHURST: You can save your right-turn lane basically and go from 5.5 down to two.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: And the two metres is because you need to house somebody holding a bike or a wheelchair.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:For pedestrians, yes.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: Or a pram, yes.
MR BROADHURST: That's correct.
103 MR VAN DEN DRIES:In this case if you want them open, which is indicated on this plan, then you start looking at 5.5, because you need to havethis person coming out of here and wishing to turn right, to have this car sheltered.Otherwise you're going to have his engine in a traffic lane and his backside in a traffic lane.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD:So do you know - from your experience of Canning Highway at the moment, do all the medians and right-turn pocketsare they built to that standard or are these sub-standard at the moment?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Most of it's pretty wide.If you look at that, look at the (indistinct) now and it's really at major intersections that you've gotopenings.If you look at the existing section here, this is actually wide, excessively wide here. So this one here there is storage capacity here.They've actually developed that correctly.So what they have done from Preston Point Road heading eastward, it has to be done correctly - well, perceived to be done correctly.There are some issues on certain things like - ifI can find my bearings. These islands here, these seagull islands here we call them seagullthey actually are sub- standard but this one here already exists and Main Roads are currently reviewing the need for that because you only need those small islands if the median is about 10 metres wide and they're not 10 metres wide.
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: No.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: So they actually perceive that to be dangerous and Main Roads are currently reviewing this intersection now as we speak.(indistinct) was drawn in here but that's only just a concept and that could be deleted anyway.
You know, a couple of deletes off a CAD drawing, you just won't see it.But, as you can see, the development of these right-turn pockets at these key junctions, they have got sufficient space but the section west of Preston Point doesn't have that.
MS ALLAN:All right. The concept has arisen, as you know - you're involved with the TOD policies through the portfolio arrangements, the transit orientated development designs.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Lindsay has been more so than I have.
MR BROADHURST: Yes.I'm just basically aware of the TODs.I haven't had too much involvement in the formation.
MS ALLAN: And more broadly Network City.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Yes, that's correct.
MR BROADHURST:I have reviewed that, provided comments et cetera.
MS ALLAN: And the concept of activity corridors and centres.
104 MR BROADHURST: Yes.
MS ALLAN: Which this is one of those.It's a concept that's probably broader or whatever than a highway concept, so the purpose of those is to integrate land use and transport more (indistinct).
MR BROADHURST: Yes.
MS ALLAN: I just wondered if you wanted to comment on that because, you know, the reality is that this is signalled to beyou know, this is an activity corridor and we will have to
MR BROADHURST: We discussed that with DPI briefly yesterday, Steve Bayer (indistinct) in terms of this general issue and standards and then we come toI think we come to where we have sort of an activity corridor with some sort of node or nodal development(indistinct) there should be some sort of change in road environment through that sort of nodal development type area.
MS ALLAN: For example, from Network City.
MR BROADHURST: Yes. As I saysay, through South Perth there are number of sort of nodals that are development areas.
MS ALLAN: So in terms of road users there are a few concepts there that could be incorporated into the activity corridor.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's correct, yes.
MS ALLAN: And that's what we're talking about.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Talking about, yes.
MR BROADHURST: We were involved in and a study was about to be initiated for Canning Highway South Perth section from bridge to bridge. That was about to be initiated but then it was put on hold because DPI needed to clarify what are the impacts to the whole range of issues, the cross-section being one of Network City and nodal developments and what does it mean to the road environment through that area.
I'm not aware that there has been any progress in terms of policies on (indistinct) on roads through those areas but it's obviously an area where some further thought needs to be put into.
105 MS ALLAN: I think you're right and one of our issues will be toand the report on the amendment actually signalled that its an activity corridor and - youknow, mentioned that and our committee needs to obviously bear that in mind. So itwould be helpful, you know, any advice on that concept.
MR BROADHURST: I think we would have some concerns ifitesulted in Canning Highway being reduced down to one lane in each direction.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: They're trying on the East Fremantle section.
MR BROADHURST:Obviously we can understand that, you know, you may need some change in environment to create that sort of atmosphere of being sort of anactivity type sort of centre and other sort of development where some lower speeds may beappropriate. But obviously we need to sort of balance that with Canning Highway still aprimary regional road and has a regional function for servicing (indistinct) et cetera.
MS ALLAN:It is a conundrum though, you can understand.
MR BROADHURST: There's a balance there between these two issues.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Also just another factor too is Great Eastern HighwayI know we're talking about Canning Highway but Great Eastern Highway from the GrahamFarmer Freeway out to the Great Eastern Highway bypass there's an MRS in place butMain Roads - there is a conceptfor six lanes for that section, with a median and all that stuff. But when Main Roads have now done the concept to properly design to correct standards we're now going outside the MRS and now we're actually going in and doing minor amendments along that section of road.
MS ALLAN: That's through which section, sorry?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: From the Graham Farmer Freeway through to Great Eastern Highway bypass. So we've got to be mindful of that.Developments are occurring quite rapidly along these arterial nodes because of being such good routes. We have got to be mindful of that. We must set the boundary sufficient enough so that we can have a bit of flexibility if it needs to be to construct it.If we do constrain ourselves too much, obviously there are certain parts we won't be able to contribute, like cycling or pedestrians or whatever. So we have to be very mindful of that.
MS ALLAN: Graham Farmer Freeway to which?
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Great Eastern Highway bypass. That's Redcliffe.
MS ALLAN: From Redcliffe up toyou mean just that section between - -
106 MR VAN DEN DRIES:You've got Great Eastern Highway going this way to Midland and you've got the Great Eastern Highway bypass that goes off towards Roe Highway and the airport is just hereyes, that section there.
MS ALLAN: Okay.
MR BROADHURST: Not all of it has been constructed. There are some sections --
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Through Belmont.
MR BROADHURST:(indistinct)
MS ALLAN: I'm aware of that hill,I think it's 501 or something of that area.Is that what you mean?
MR VAN DEN DRIES:I can't remember.
MS ALLAN: Near Belmont Avenue.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Belmont Avenue and all those yes, that's correct, those areas there.
MS ALLAN:(indistinct) multi-storey units.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:That's correct, yes.
MS ALLAN:I think from a town planning point of view I would call that a specific situation and one that requires (indistinct) but F think that's a different land use.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: It's different land use, yes, you're right but the factor we're concerned with is making sure the reservation for the road, as a primary regional road, is sufficiently wide enough to facilitateall modes of transport, not just cars or buses or whateverall modes of transport. Main Roads at the end of the day will have to go out and build it and if we are squeezed in too tight, obviously we have to compromise our standards and then we have to compromise the speed or whatever associated with it.
MS ALLAN: All right.Yes, as Isaid, one of our tasks is to consider this as an activity corridor and we need to have the best possible advice to do that. We understand how early in the process itis but nevertheless this is clearly going to be signalled -it is signalled as one and we need to address that issue. So if you have got any additional advice on that specific issue you might like to pass it to Alan.It would be useful.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:Yes.
MS ALLAN: Any further questions?
107 CLR GRAHAM: No, I don't have any questions.
MS ALLAN: Susan?
MS KREEMER-PICKFORD: No, thank you.
MS ALLAN:Thank you very much. Sorry, just clarifying, David, the additional points you made were picked up in the --
MR VAN DEN DRIES:It has. That's correct, it has, yes.
MS ALLAN: Okay.
MR BROADHURST: There are more points in there but some of them are probably alittle more detailed.
MR VAN DEN DRIES:The points actually repeat themselves quite often, so what I have done in the letter at the front is actually combine all those and make them dot points.
MS ALLAN: That's a good idea. Thanks very much, Lindsay.
MR BROADHURST: Thank you.
MR VAN DEN DRIES: Thank you.
108