Vol. 754 Wednesday No. 13 25 June 2014

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Housing: Accessibility...... 1235 Bovine Tuberculosis...... 1237 Assisted Suicide ...... 1240 Women: Wages...... 1242 Wales Bill First Reading...... 1244 National Security Strategy Joint Committee Membership Motion ...... 1244 Serious Crime Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion...... 1245 Infrastructure Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion...... 1245 First World War Motion to Take Note ...... 1245 Iraq Motion to Take Note ...... 1315 Written Statements ...... WS 115 Written Answers ...... WA 155

£4·00 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201415/ldhansrd/index/140625.html

PRICES AND SUBSCRIPTION RATES DAILY PARTS Single copies: Commons, £5; Lords £4 Annual subscriptions: Commons, £865; Lords £600 LORDS VOLUME INDEX obtainable on standing order only. Details available on request. BOUND VOLUMES OF DEBATES are issued periodically during the session. Single copies: Commons, £105; Lords, £60 (£100 for a two-volume edition). Standing orders will be accepted. THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage.

The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative Con Ind Conservative Independent DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Lab Labour Lab Ind Labour Independent LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2014, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1235 Housing: Accessibility[25 JUNE 2014] Housing: Accessibility 1236

those standards and having those national standards House of Lords will now make it much simpler for developers to comply. Wednesday, 25 June 2014. 3pm Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, does the Minister agree that we need a national campaign to build more Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham. bungalows to the lifetime homes standards because they are accessible and adaptable? Will she look at Housing: Accessibility ways in which the community infrastructure levy could be adapted to encourage builders to build more homes Question to the lifetime standards? 3.06 pm Baroness Stowell of Beeston: We need a range of Tabled by Baroness Wilkins different types of housing to meet a range of needs. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps One of the things that the Government are doing is they are taking to ensure that future housing is providing special funding for accessible homes that accessible and able to meet the needs of the greatest are aimed precisely at older people and adults with number of people. disabilities. We are expecting 3,500 of those homes to be delivered before 2018. Lord Best (CB): My Lords, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, and at her request, I beg leave Baroness Andrews (Lab): My Lords, is the Minister to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order aware that one disabled person is six lives in unsuitable Paper. accommodation? Is she further aware that, while it costs £28,000 to treat a hip fracture, it costs about The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department £1,800 to put in a stair lift? Does she agree that it for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell makes absolute economic sense to invest as much as of Beeston) (Con): My Lords, the Government are possible in accessible housing? She has spoken about taking a number of steps to support accessible housing, new regulations. Can she assure me that they will including introducing new accessibility requirements require all developers to build new houses to the into the building regulations and funding programmes lifetime homes standards? to improve housing choice for older and disabled people. Baroness Stowell of Beeston: We certainly want to Lord Best: My Lords, I thank the Minister on make sure that more and more homes are available behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins. She had a and that more and more of them are at a standard to terrible accident in the other place, has broken both meet the needs of a range of people. The noble Baroness her legs and will be in Stoke Mandeville Hospital for makes an important point: investment in this area some months. saves money in the longer term. Having those national Can the Minister reassure the House and external standards will ensure that developers are much more bodies such as Leonard Cheshire Disability and the inclined to comply with this requirement in future. Habinteg Housing Association that, in the quest to increase the quantity of new homes, the Government will not sacrifice quality, particularly in terms of space Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, is the standards and accessibility, as otherwise today’s rabbit Minister aware that the Habinteg Housing Association, hutches will be tomorrow’s slums? Will she encourage referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Best, has built all councils to follow the good example of the Mayor homes to these standards for more than 40 years? of London, Boris Johnson, and his predecessor, Ken Leonard Cheshire has done much the same. Surely we Livingstone, in insisting on the lifetime homes standards should all aim at housing that people will not be for accessibility that not only help all of us, particularly forced to leave because they are old or a bit disabled, as we grow older, but are there to save money in terms even apart from the more special adaptations that of people’s admission to hospital and admission to might be required for those who are more severely residential care homes? disabled.

Baroness Stowell of Beeston: My Lords, I do not Baroness Stowell of Beeston: The more we can think that it is presumptuous to say on behalf of the ensure that this is achieved the better, but we think the whole House just how sorry we are to hear about the right approach is the way we are following, which is to tragic accident that the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, have a national planning policy in place that requires experienced. We all wish her a speedy recovery. local authorities to determine and plan for the needs In response to the noble Lord’s question, it is of their local people. important for me to say that this Government are going further than any previous Government in making Lord Low of Dalston (CB): My Lords, there is new homes accessible because for the first time ever we provision in the Deregulation Bill to incorporate lifetime are bringing two new access standards into building home standards and wheelchair accessible standards regulations. That has never happened before. Local in regulations, to which I think the Minister has referred. authorities are best placed to decide the housing needs To give them a statutory basis for the first time is of older and disabled people in terms of applying obviously very much to be welcomed. However, the 1237 Housing: Accessibility[LORDS] Bovine Tuberculosis 1238

[LORD LOW OF DALSTON] working to implement its recommendations in advance housing standards review consultation suggests that of the second year of culling in Gloucestershire and planning authorities will be able to enforce these standards Somerset. only if they apply a particularly rigorous needs test. Is there not a danger that this could undermine the Lord Trees (CB): I am grateful to the Minister for progressive intentions of the Deregulation Bill? that Answer. In the light of the fact that vaccination is likely to be a significant, although not the only, tool in Baroness Stowell of Beeston: Under the terms of the future long-term and sustainable control of this the National Planning Policy Framework, local authorities terrible disease, can the Minister give this House an are required to assess the needs of their population in assurance that the three important goals of research their approach to planning. The important thing about into and development of an oral vaccine for badgers, these regulations is that when they are put in place as the registration and deployment of a cattle vaccine part of a requirement for planning approval, the work and the research into and development of appropriate will be checked properly for the certificate to be applied cattle diagnostic tests will not be hindered by a lack of after the work has been completed. resources? Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab): My Lords, I spoke to my noble friend Lady Wilkins yesterday and Baroness Northover: I can give the noble Lord that I know that she will be delighted by the good wishes assurance. I hope that he was pleased to see the from the House. She is very grateful for all the personal strategy announced at the beginning of April, which messages that she has received and for the support of makes it very clear that culling is only a small part of the officers of the House. an overall approach to this disease. He has outlined Perhaps I may follow up the question of my noble some very important areas, and Defra has pledged friend Lady Andrews. Slips and trips when housing is significant support to take that research forward. I not truly accessible for disabled people ultimately mean hope that the noble Lord will also be pleased with the a cost for the NHS. Does the Minister agree that one announcement of support for vaccination on the edge way of easing pressure on the NHS, as well as supporting between the areas with a high incidence of bovine TB the wellbeing of disabled people, would be to have a and those that currently have a lower incidence. more robust accident prevention component of the public health agenda, which in turn would help with Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con): My Lords, can the the housing problems that disabled people face? Minister tell the House what proportion of the culled badgers were found to have actually had tuberculosis Baroness Stowell of Beeston: The noble Baroness on post-mortem examination? raises a specific point that I will certainly take away and explore further, but I am afraid I am not familiar enough with the detail to respond comprehensively. Baroness Northover: I can trust my noble friend to ask me a question like that. I read the report a month Lord Swinfen (Con): My Lords, will my noble friend or so back with enormous interest. I took a great encourage local authorities to keep a register of accessible number of notes but I cannot remember the answer to housing? that, I am afraid, and I shall have to write to him.

Baroness Stowell of Beeston: I shall certainly explore Lord Cameron of Dillington (CB): My Lords, is that if it is not something that local authorities do. there a possibility that the Government might reconsider However, the important point for me to stress again is their methodology of culling? Instead of having people that local authorities are very much responsible for running around firing guns at night, they might consider meeting the housing needs of the people in their areas. using gas, which is heavier than air in badger setts during the day. That seems to be much safer and much Bovine Tuberculosis more efficient. Question Baroness Northover: All areas are being looked at. 3.14 pm There has been research into gassing but at the moment Asked by Lord Trees we are finding that this method has significant practical challenges. The noble Lord can be assured that further To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they research is being taken forward in this area, although intend to modify their strategy to control bovine as yet it does not involve live badgers or active setts. tuberculosis in the United Kingdom in the light of the independent expert panel report on the pilot badger culls. Lord Winston (Lab): My Lords, given that Professor Rosie Woodroffe has said that badger culling is Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, in April we unequivocally ineffective and extremely inhumane, can launched our TB strategy, setting out our plans to we have clarity from the Government that culling will achieve officially TB-free status by 2038 through both not continue under any future circumstances? Can we new and existing tools. We have always been clear that also have an assurance that, wherever possible, scientific lessons would be learnt from the badger control pilots. advice will be followed? For example, the noble Lord, Having considered the report of the independent expert Lord Krebs, has shown that the mathematics relating panel, we have accepted its conclusions and are currently to this issue are absolutely plain. 1239 Bovine Tuberculosis[25 JUNE 2014] Assisted Suicide 1240

Baroness Northover: As the noble Lord will know Assisted Suicide from having looked at the science, one thing that came Question out of the research by the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, was that you could not stop culling after one year—you 3.22 pm had to continue it for several years, otherwise there would be an adverse effect. Therefore, the culling will Asked by Lord Dobbs continue in the areas in which it was started, as was always planned. That is based upon scientific advice To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they from the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. As I am sure the have issued guidelines as to whether those who noble Lord will know, there was a reduction in the assist a family member to end their lives in the incidence of bovine TB in the randomised control Dignitas clinic in Switzerland can expect to be areas that were looked at, but that reduction was only prosecuted. around 16%, and therefore other strategies are needed too. The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD): My Lords, the Crown Prosecution Service published a policy in respect of cases of Lord Krebs (CB): My Lords, as the Minister will be encouraging or assisting suicide in February 2010. aware, the efficacy of the pilot can be evaluated properly This sets out factors that may be relevant in deciding only if both the number of badgers at the start and the whether prosecution for assisting suicide is in the number killed are known. As noble Lords will recall, public interest. last year the badgers notoriously changed the goalposts at the last minute. How precisely will the number of badgers be estimated in the future pilot cull? Can she Lord Dobbs (Con): As ever, I am grateful to my in particular confirm that Defra will not rely on the noble and learned friend. This morning the Supreme numbers reported by the contractors, as the independent Court, in a landmark decision, said that the current expert panel advised that those numbers were quite law may be incompatible with human rights law, and unreliable? For example, the contractors initially claimed that it might very well rule on this. It also said that it is to have shot more than one badger per bullet fired. our duty in Parliament to decide these issues. It put the onus back on us to decide. We will have that opportunity in a few weeks’ time with the Assisted Baroness Northover: Perhaps they were all lined up. Dying Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. We could recently have done with some moving of There are reports, which I hope I have misheard, that goalposts in Brazil, could we not? The noble Lord is there may be an attempt to stifle discussion of these right to emphasise the importance of a much more very important matters by voting the Bill down at comprehensive coverage. He will know from his own Second Reading. Does my noble and learned friend trials that in many of the areas he was working in, the agree that it would be inappropriate—and, indeed, process started slowly and picked up. There are a highly irresponsible—to cut off debate on such a number of recommendations in the independent expert sensitive issue, given the passions on both sides about panel report about how to ensure that there is more this hugely important question? systematic and comprehensive coverage, and we are taking those recommendations forward. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I am certainly aware of the judgment passed down by the Supreme Lord Cunningham of Felling (Lab): My Lords, as Court this morning. In a preliminary consideration of the Minister who initiated the recommendations of it I agree with my noble friend that it indicated that it the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, at the beginning of this is a matter that Parliament ought to consider. The very serious problem—which we know is complicated Government will take a collective view on the Assisted not only by science but by the ability of badgers to Dying Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, evade culls of whatever kind—I remind your Lordships’ to respond to that debate. It is fair to say that historically House that the cost of this problem of tuberculosis in it has been a matter of individual conscience, which cattle now exceeds £1 billion to the taxpayer, let alone the Prime Minister confirmed in April this year. Therefore, the distress caused to those in our dairy industry who it would be inappropriate for me from this Dispatch see their herds and livelihoods destroyed at the same Box to indicate what noble Lords should or should time. We urgently need to find a solution and I suggest not do on 18 July. I fully expect, however, that on a to the Minister that it should occur in a much shorter complex issue that raises passions on both sides—which timescale than is currently envisaged. Although I welcome I very much respect—your Lordships, in traditional the strategy, the timescale is something that we can ill manner, will give proper consideration to a range of afford. If this problem endures, the cost to the taxpayer arguments including, no doubt, the judgment passed and our dairy industry will be between £2 billion and down by the justices of the Supreme Court. £3 billion. Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, if the Government are Baroness Northover: The noble Lord is absolutely going to take a collective view, how does that relate to right to bring us back to that. I would also point out individual responsibility on a matter of conscience? that it is also not in the badgers’ interests to have bovine Surely everyone—members of the Government included TB running through their population. Therefore, —should be entitled to have an individual view on a whichever animal one is concerned about, but in the matter of conscience such as this, and not to be bullied interests of both, it is a problem that must be tackled. by the Government Front Bench. 1241 Assisted Suicide[LORDS] Women: Wages 1242

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I am grateful to the limited to one minute, there were concise and impressive noble Lord. The Government will take a collective arguments on both sides and I hope that the House view which could of course be neutral. I indicated—I will have an opportunity to hear these arguments hope I can make it clear—that historically that has again. been the position on a matter of individual conscience. The Prime Minister confirmed this position as recently Baroness Jay of Paddington (Lab): My Lords, following as April of this year. It is appropriate that Parliament the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, in view should take a lead in such debates. of the Supreme Court judgment this morning, does he agree that one of the issues we debated at the time Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB): My Lords, can the he referred to—that there should be much greater Minister say, with regard to the 108 British people I clarity about the prosecution policy for healthcare am aware of who have travelled to Dignitas, how professionals—should now be looked at again? One of many family members or friends have been prosecuted? the inhibiting problems in this area is the sense that healthcare professionals who may be able to give Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I do not proper and sensitive help to people in this position are have that specific figure. However, records published inhibited from doing so. by the Crown Prosecution Service show that from 1 April 2009 up until 13 February this year, 91 cases Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, it is important were referred to the CPS by the police that have been to make a distinction between clarifying the policy recorded as assisted suicide or euthanasia. Of these and changing the law. The role of the Director of 91 cases, 65 were not proceeded with by the CPS; 13 Public Prosecutions is not to change the law—that is a were withdrawn by the police; and there are currently matter for Parliament. However, the Supreme Court eight ongoing cases. One case of assisted attempted encouraged the Director of Public Prosecutions to suicide was successfully prosecuted and four cases consider the policy. They did not think that she should have been subject to prosecution for murder or serious be required to review it but offered her encouragement assault. to do so. Obviously, as it has been less than six hours since the judgment was delivered, I am not sure what The Earl of Glasgow (LD): My Lords, are not the the Director of Public Prosecutions will do. However, Government embarrassed, if not ashamed, by the fact I fully expect that she will want to give careful that so many terminally ill people feel forced to go to consideration to what the justices said. Switzerland to die when, if the law was changed, they could die in their own homes with their family around Baroness Cumberlege (Con): My Lords, is my noble them and a qualified doctor in assistance? and learned friend aware that Keir Starmer, who was the DPP until just last year, told the Commission on Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, these are Assisted Dying, chaired by the noble and learned matters properly for Parliament to decide. Indeed, it is Lord, Lord Falconer, that, fair to note that the current law which amended the “the law works well in practice”? Suicide Act 1961 is contained in the Coroners and In the light of that, does my noble and learned friend Justice Act 2009. So Parliament has addressed this agree that there is nothing unusual about the way the issue recently and will undoubtedly have an opportunity law on assisted suicide works? We expect the law to be to consider these matters further when it comes to maintained in its integrity in order to protect all of us debate the Bill of the noble and learned Lord, Lord and for exceptional cases to be dealt with exceptionally. Falconer. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I do recall Baroness Meacher (CB): My Lords— what the previous Director of Public Prosecutions said to the Commission on Assisted Dying; I think I Baroness Cumberlege (Con): My Lords— referred to it when I responded to the debate of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay. The important point is that Noble Lords: Cross-Bench. there is a code which sets out the evidential test which has to be met first and foremost, and then the public Baroness Meacher: My Lords, does the Minister interest test. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord accept that the principle of patient autonomy is now Hope, noted in the Purdy case, there will always be at the centre of medical decisions throughout our lives discretion for the Director of Public Prosecutions. until the very end when that right to one’s autonomy is Every case is different and it is important that individual withdrawn? I understand that the Minister cannot cases are looked at, having proper regard to the individual take a view on one or other side of the argument, but circumstances. do the Government and the Minister accept that it is of the utmost importance that the Second Reading Women: Wages is allowed in order to satisfy the 75% to 80% of the Question public who support the Bill—and, indeed, the wishes of the courts? 3.31 pm Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I very Asked by Baroness Thornton much expect that there will be a debate. I responded to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures a profound debate introduced by the noble Baroness, they are taking to address any fall in wages of Lady Jay, two years ago. Albeit the speakers were women in the United Kingdom. 1243 Women: Wages[25 JUNE 2014] National Security Strategy Jt. Committee 1244

Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, the Office for Baroness Wheatcroft (Con): My Lords, are not more National Statistics Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings and more women taking their remuneration into their shows that pay for women working both full-time and own hands by setting up their own businesses, which part-time is rising. To support these women, we are has become increasingly easy to do? helping with the cost of childcare, introducing shared parental leave, extending flexible working to all and Baroness Northover: Yes. The number of self-employed raising the income tax threshold, which means that women has increased to 1.42 million. There are more 1.83 million women will be taken out of income tax by women-led businesses than ever before and more women April 2015. in employment than ever before, with wages going up.

Baroness Thornton (Lab): I thank the Minister for Baroness Afshar (CB): My Lords, there is nothing that Answer. Obviously we have a difference of opinion so deskilling as motherhood. The reason that women about the figures from the Office for National Statistics, are paid less after the age of 40 is that very often they because they tell us that between 2013 and 2014 women’s have domestic duties. What are the Government doing mean full-time earnings fell to what amounts to an to assist mothers to have enough support in the early average loss of £52 over the year. So, unlike men, stages so as not to withdraw from the labour market? women working full-time have seen their actual take-home Baroness Northover: The noble Baroness is absolutely pay fall. I ask the Minister to go back and look at right. That is at the core of this issue. It is why, as I those figures because that gender inequality is not said in my initial Answer, we are trying to increase the acceptable. What steps will the Government take to provision of affordable, high-quality childcare and to remedy it? make sure that people can access shared parental leave. We are encouraging fathers as well as mothers to Baroness Northover: I hope that the noble Baroness take that leave and to take up flexible working. will be reassured that I have looked at the figures; I have them with me. She will know that the previous The Archbishop of York: My Lords, the Living Government used the Annual Survey of Hours and Wage Commission published its final report yesterday. Earnings, which is what I have just cited, and not the It makes it clear that people in the care industry are survey she cited. That is in part because of the difference paid very poorly—and the majority happen to be between median and mean, which no doubt I do not women. Will the Government take a reality check and have to go into in depth with her. Also, the survey she recognise that people in the care professions are paid is looking at went up in the last quarter, while now poorly? Will they make sure that, in terms of procurement, there is a slight drop. However, it is self-reported, local authorities encourage those in the care profession whereas the survey I am referring to is based on PAYE to pay at least the living wage, which we wanted to be and HMRC information. That is the survey the voluntary and not compulsory? If that does not happen, Government use and which her Government used. concern about women being paid poorly will continue. It is a stain on the conscience of this country that Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD): My Lords, almost two- people work hard and are still in poverty. thirds of people in low-paid work, those earning £7 per hour or less, are women. The gender gap is still in Baroness Northover: I read the report of the most existence, although it is narrowing, and women are reverend Primate’s commission with enormous interest. still underrepresented in senior executive roles, particularly I note that he has just said that he is looking for a in science and technology. What is being done to take voluntary approach rather than regulation, but he a really comprehensive look at the serious factors challenges responsible employers to pay a fair wage. which contribute to gender inequalities in the workplace? He is right to identify the difference in pay between men and women. Baroness Northover: My noble friend is right to highlight the different areas that men and women Wales Bill often work in. There is encouraging news in that the First Reading gender pay gap has narrowed and is now close to zero for full-time employees under the age of 40. However, 3.37 pm you start to see a differential as you move into the older cohorts. That is to do with the areas that people The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first work in and the fact that many more women are time and ordered to be printed. working part-time. The median hourly wage for part-time workers is £8.29 as opposed to £13.03 for full-time National Security Strategy Joint workers. Committee Membership Motion Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab): How many prosecutions have taken place for non-payment of the 3.37 pm minimum wage? I ask that because it would be mostly Moved by The Chairman of Committees women who were affected among the low-paid workers That Lord Forsyth of Drumlean be appointed a in this country. member of the Joint Committee in place of Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbots, resigned. Baroness Northover: That is a very interesting point. I shall get further details. Motion agreed. 1245 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] First World War 1246

Serious Crime Bill [HL] physically and psychologically injured returning to Order of Consideration Motion civilian life. The great majority of commemorations will therefore be locally based. However, as the Prime 3.38 pm Minister said in October 2012, Government have a role. We can lead, encourage and enable activity, linking Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach up projects and organisations. We can identify common That it be an instruction to the Committee of the strands such as remembrance, youth and education, Whole House to which the Serious Crime Bill [HL] and promote them so that they permeate the national has been committed that they consider the bill in commemorations. We have done so. At the Government’s the following order: request, the Heritage Lottery Fund has earmarked funds for First World War community projects and Clauses 1 to 42, Schedule 1, Clauses 43 to 50, has already allocated over £56 million to more than Schedule 2, Clauses 51 to 63, Schedule 3, Clauses 64 700 projects, big and small. to 67, Schedule 4, Clauses 68 to 71. Motion agreed. In taking this leadership role, we are of course conscious that there are different interpretations of the rights and wrongs, and the causes and effects of Infrastructure Bill [HL] the war. It would not be right for Government to Order of Consideration Motion promote one particular interpretation over another. The tone of the official commemorations will be neither 3.38 pm celebratory nor apologetic. It is clear who won the war Moved by Baroness Kramer and we are proud of the courage of our ancestors but the enormous sacrifices on both sides mean there is no That it be an instruction to the Grand Committee cause for celebration. Equally, however, we are not to which the Infrastructure Bill [HL] has been apologetic. Our predecessors were overwhelmingly committed that they consider the bill in the following confident that resisting a militaristic aggressor satisfied order: the moral preconditions for a just war and that it was Clause 1, Schedule 1, Clauses 2 and 3, Schedule 2, right to honour our treaty commitment to Belgium. Clauses 4 to 10, Schedule 3, Clauses 11 to 23, Of course, different views were taken at the time but Schedule 4, Clauses 24 to 26, Schedule 5, Clauses 27 whatever the family history of people alive today—whether to 32. their ancestors were conscientious objectors or active in the forces—a hundred years on it is surely right for Motion agreed. us to remember together as a nation.

In doing so, we will be mindful that those who were First World War once our adversaries are now our partners in building Motion to Take Note a better world. The St Symphorien military cemetery near Mons was selected for one of the official events 3.38 pm on 4 August for the very reason that it contains almost Moved by Lord Gardiner of Kimble equal numbers of war dead from both sides. Senior members of the Royal Family and British Government That this House takes note of the programme to will be joined there by German government commemorate the centenary of the First World representatives, descendants of both the British and War. German fallen and youth representatives. St Symphorien is maintained by the Commonwealth War Graves Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): My Lords, the Commission. I pay tribute to the work of the commission centenary of this terrible war is important for three which maintains military cemeteries in some 23,000 reasons. One is the sheer scale of the sacrifice: 16 million locations all over the world in such an immaculate, deaths and 20 million wounded across the globe; more beautiful and accessible condition. Since 1917 its efforts than 1 million dead from Britain and her then empire have been a constant and just tribute to the sacrifices and Commonwealth; and barely a family or community of our fighting men and women. left untouched. Another reason to commemorate is that, with the Throughout the four years of the centenary, we passing of Henry Allingham, Harry Patch and Bill will give proper recognition to the contribution of Stone, we have lost the last British veterans. Although the Army and Navy, and later in the war the Royal there are many who still remember the effect of the Air Force. The Armed Forces have an extensive war on their parents, we will one day lose that last commemorative programme of their own, largely focused personal connection, too. It is critical that the war on anniversaries of particular engagements throughout should continue to be remembered, generation after the war. This August, 35 cavalrymen—one representing generation, so that lessons can continue to be learnt. each regiment of the original British Cavalry Division— The final reason is the huge impact of the war on our will join their French counterparts in riding 100 miles country’s story, from the empowerment of women to across northern France over five days to benefit the technical innovations to transformations in social norms. Not Forgotten Association. On 13 August, in a joint Every local community bears its own scars: not Western Front Association and RAF event, the Dover only the loss of those who died in different theatres of muster will be recreated with a flight of period aircraft war and on the home front but the legacy of the across the channel and a special service at Arras. 1247 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1248

The enormous contribution of what is now the with the whole school, and, through the school, with Commonwealth, whether in terms of troops, financial the local community. The first tour took place last support, raw materials or civilian assistance, will be month, and many schools have already signed up for acknowledged. We simply could not have prevailed the autumn, with about 12,000 participants expected without them. in total from 4,000 schools. A similar project is planned The first event on 4 August will have a clear in Scotland. Commonwealth focus, and we will then be looking to The Government are also helping communities to mark key Commonwealth engagements throughout make links with their past. More than £5 million of the four years that follow. Among these will be the funding will be made available across the centenary sacrifices of the Jullundur Brigade of the Indian period to ensure that local war memorials are in good Army at Neuve Chapelle, the brave record of the order for the future. In another Department for ANZACs at Gallipoli, the heroism of the Canadians Communities and Local Government-led project, special at Passchendaele, and the contribution of the African paving stones have been designed to commemorate and Caribbean regiments in many theatres. VC recipients. My noble friend Lady Warsi will announce Three national events will be taking place on 4 August. tomorrow how overseas-born VC recipients will be The day will be critical in setting the tone for the whole honoured. commemorative period. In the morning, there will be We are ensuring that the UK is appropriately the service for the Commonwealth at Glasgow Cathedral, represented at all key international First World War recognising the fact that many Commonwealth leaders events. Just as the First World War commemorations will already be present in the city for the end of the are characterised within the United Kingdom by a Commonwealth Games. In the afternoon, the ceremony joined-up approach, with all government departments at St Symphorien military cemetery will take place. and the devolved Administrations actively co-operating, In the evening, in the hour leading up to the exact a close liaison is taking place between countries, not anniversary at 11 pm, a service of solemn commemoration just within the Commonwealth and our allies but with will be held at Westminster Abbey. Similar prayer and our former adversaries. We are working closely with vigil services will be taking place in St Anne’s Cathedral the Republic of Ireland to achieve a commemorative in Belfast, Llandaff Cathedral in Cardiff and Anglican programme that will be equally accessible and relevant cathedrals around the country. As well as being involved to those on both sides of the border who wish to be on 4 August, Catholic churches will have held special involved. masses the day before, and other churches and faith The Government have set a framework for a fitting and communities are planning acts of reflection or prayer memorable centenary—commemoratively, educationally to coincide with the abbey service. and culturally. These events and projects will, with the During the same hour, places of worship, other most profound respect, mark this historic centenary in public buildings, workplaces and private homes will all parts of the country and its many communities, take part in Lights Out. Lights will be switched off—a and particularly for the custodians of the legacy: reference to the reported comment by the then Foreign young people. We will do so in a way that is mindful of Secretary about the lamps going out across Europe—with our present-day friendships with our former adversaries, just one light left burning in each place as a symbol of while never forgetting the service and sacrifice of men continuing hope in the darkness of war. There will be and women at home and abroad. I beg to move. a great many other commemorative activities around the UK on 4 August. Particularly poignant, I believe, 3.50 pm will be Step Short in Folkestone, where a parade will inaugurate a new memorial arch over the road—the Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, I must first Road of Remembrance—down which so many troops declare an interest as a trustee of the Imperial War marched to embark on ships to the western front, Museum. many never to return. I thank the Minister for that clear exposition of the The commemorations will also have a cultural element. commemoration programme, which will lay to rest Lights Out, and a special late Prom taking place that some of the concerns that people had. I know that same day at the Royal Albert Hall, are both part of the when there was mention of this, the late Lord Campbell 14-18 NOW cultural programme, a rich programme of of Alloway was absolutely horrified that there should new work which the Government have put in place in be a commemoration. I remember him saying to me, the weeks leading up to 4 August. The 2014 events “What? Commemorate that bloody war? Never”. I programme will be a tribute to artists’ and writers’ think that he thought of it more as a celebration, but significant contribution during and after the First this clearly is not a celebration. The more I have World War. The programme includes innovative activities thought about it, the more convinced I am that this is designed to encourage reflection on the war. Alongside the right thing to do. That is for many of the reasons ballet and plays will be the London and Liverpool that the Minister gave but particularly for the young—the dazzle ships, where artists have reinterpreted the dazzle ability of the youth within this country to learn what camouflage patterns of the period. the war meant, what changes it put in our country, In England, the cultural programme is matched by along with the sacrifice and all those aspects of the war. an ambitious educational programme being led by the Of course, this has a huge resonance with our Department for Communities and Local Government. public. Every single family, as the Minister said, was Two students and a teacher from each directly funded touched by this war. The thought of those killing secondary school are being sent on a battlefield visit, fields and the trenches, with their mud, has an immense and are then being asked to share their experience resonance. The war really needs to be remembered in 1249 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1250

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] horrendous. Think of the sheer number of mental that calm and sensible way, looking at what was an injuries; if we think of post-traumatic stress now, we awful experience for all those involved. Of course, it can see that we must have been talking about 1 million was really the first time that we had a complete citizen or so at the time. army fully involved, so that the whole population were being pulled in. Baroness Trumpington (Con): My Lords— The noble Baroness the Lord Speaker and a couple of other Ministers were with me when the cadet forces had a major debate in this Chamber. That was a Lord West of Spithead: I am sorry, did the noble wonderful thing to watch because they were discussing Baroness want to speak? whether we had learnt the lessons from that war. That would never have happened if we had not thought Baroness Trumpington: Yes, I want to say something. about this commemoration. It was wonderful to hear Hurry up and say what you are going to say. them speak and they were jolly good about keeping to time, which I am sure I will not be. They were quite Lord West of Spithead: I shall give way. remarkable and the debate was very good. The other aspect is whether this was a necessary war. I know that when I was at school, I was taught Baroness Trumpington: I have a question for the that the First World War was completely unnecessary Minister. My father served as a regular soldier in the and that there was no need for it at all. However, as I 9th Bengal Lancers. As such, he fought, and won an have read more and more about it and had experience MC, in Mesopotamia. What is Mesopotamia these of life myself, having been in wars, I believe that it was days? Is it involved in future commemoration events? necessary. It was the first of the German wars of the Will the commemorative events go further to include 20th century, rather like the French wars of the late India, which sent a great many people? 18th and early 19th centuries. There is no doubt for me that, although there were some wonderful aspects of Lord West of Spithead: Yes; Mesopotamia, Iraq—it democracy within Germany and some marvellous culture is all still in a mess, isn’t it? The best ever intelligence there, it had a militaristic organisation. There was on Mesopotamia was the Naval Intelligence Division huge competition over colonies and over the notes, which were actually jolly useful and I wish that Dreadnoughts. They wanted to have them to match we had read them better before we decided to go into our fleet, but why? They did not need them, while we that bloody place. needed them to survive. Their decision to support The point that I was leading up to was that we must Austria-Hungary, come what may, and then the decision never forget, because of the sheer scale, that everyone to go into Belgium were all wrong. It was really a involved was an individual; everyone had their own statement of a country saying, “We’re powerful and fears, cares and worries. It is interesting that 98 years we do what we like”, so our decision to go to war over ago yesterday the body of Commander Loftus Jones Belgium was absolutely right. was washed up on a beach in Sweden. He had been I believe that it was a just war. The true nature of captain of the destroyer HMS “Shark” at the Battle of the militaristic aspect of the German nation, with its Jutland on 31 August. He was 36 years old. He was strange dichotomy, was shown in the Treaty of Brest- surrounded by light cruisers and destroyers. He took a Litovsk in 1917. That was a most punitive treaty with huge amount of shellfire. He thought that he had lost the Russians when Russia had collapsed. We saw later, his steering and went down to sort it out, but found when we looked at their papers after the war, what that he had actually lost his boilers and main engines. their plans were if they had won the war against us. I He got his men to the upper deck because the ship was have no doubt at all that Europe would have been a clearly sinking. His forward gun was blown off, as was worse place if Germany had won, so our nation did his after gun. He went to the midships gun, the only the right thing. In that, I agree with the Secretary of one remaining, because most of the men were dead. State for Education that it was a just war. I think that He himself was already badly injured by shrapnel. He he has been reported wrongly because I read that he had his leg blown off above the knee and the chief had said that socialists were unpatriotic. I am sure that stoker tied a tourniquet on it. He continued fighting he did not mean that and, if he did, I am willing to the gunners as the ships closed in. He noticed that his discuss it with him—inside or outside a boxing ring—and flag had come down. He sent a man to put it up; three we will see how we go from there. were shot but one finally got it up there. Finally, he We should be very proud of our men and women was hit by a torpedo. I say all this because it shows the who answered the call. They were of their time and did sort of thing that our people were able to do, and did, what was required of them. They did amazingly. They in the First World War. It was utterly remarkable and showed great resource and stamina, and it was a he won a VC for it. wonderful thing to see. There is no doubt that it was Jones was unusual, though, because normally the not a case of lions being led by donkeys, no matter sea does not give up its dead. For sailors, the sea is what Blackadder might say—we all love Blackadder; your grave. This can make it quite difficult for a site for it was wonderful, and the fact that it was wrong does commemoration. I personally find it very comforting not make it any worse. We should be proud that we when I stand on the shore in Dorset—I know Dorset won but, let us face it, at the end of it we had well—that the sea that is lapping around my feet bankrupted the nation, and the cost, physically and actually enveloped the bodies of my people who lie at mentally, in blood and maimed bodies, was quite the bottom of the Falkland Sound in the South Atlantic, 1251 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1252 and I feel close to them. The sea itself, of course, of us are, for making it clear that our long and moves to the mystical power of the unseen magical extended debt is to almost all the Commonwealth pull of a celestial body. The position of each sailor lost countries as well as this country and our allies. at sea is known to God and the sea, but we know the I agree that this is a very particular anniversary not sea. only because it is a centenary but because it is the last Where should one hold a naval commemoration? anniversary when people will know personally some The greatest battle was of course Jutland, the greatest of those who served in the First World War. The naval battle of the First World War, on 31 May and generation of people who are now in their 70s or 80s 1 June. I am delighted that the Government have may still remember the marks of suffering, stoicism, helped the HLF to find some money for HMS “Caroline”, commitment and memory in the faces of their mothers, the last surviving ship of Jutland, which is in Belfast. I fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers. That will not am running slightly over time, but as there was a slight go on for very much longer. We are seeing that last hiccup in timings I hope that noble Lords will forgive generation pass away. It is important that they are me. About Jutland Churchill famously said that Jellicoe, people with first-hand and personal knowledge of who was the commander of the grand fleet, was the those who have passed on from this world and are now only man who could lose the war in an afternoon. He in cemeteries all over the world. did not, though, and I have to say this because it is a Turning to Britain, when we think about the First lovely naval thing: his signal, “Equal-speed Charlie World War, it is extremely important to remember that London”, which turned the six divisions of battleships there was no conscription until well into 1916. For a into a line seven miles long in line ahead to cross the T year and a half, men died in their thousands upon of the German fleet, meant that we did not lose that thousands, having volunteered to serve with no pressure, battle. It was probably the best, quickest and most except moral pressure, on them to do so. If one walks amazing decision made during that war. Sadly, during into the Robing Room, it is striking to see on the walls the battle three battle cruisers were lost in a flash, and almost all the great Victorian virtues—gallantry, generosity of 3,311 men there were only 16 survivors. That was and hospitality—evoked by a plaque or mural based the important battle of the sea, and I am delighted on King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. that the Government are looking at commemorating What is so important about that is that many young Jutland in 2016. Will it take place at Scapa Flow? If it men who went into the First World War did so with does, I think that is appropriate, but will there be any illusions about what war was like but with a passionate help for people who need to be there? It is quite a sense of gallantry and patriotism. difficult place to get to. It is a little easier to get over to Noble Lords may recall that one of the first lines some of the battlefields in France. written about the beginning of the First World War I have a continuum with the Battle of Jutland, in was written by the great young war poet Rupert Brooke. that HMS “Ardent” was a destroyer sunk that night by I quote his ringing words: the battleship “Westfalen”, the next HMS “Ardent” “Now, God be thanked Who has matched us with His hour”. was sunk by the “Scharnhorst” and “Gneisenau” in June 1940, and my HMS “Ardent” was sunk in the There is in that poem an almost completely unqualified Falklands, so there is a continuum of commemoration. sense of sacrifice as being outstanding and without I think it is appropriate that we have this commemoration. question. I thank the Government for the things they have done The war ground to a stop in the trenches of France in laying this out in the right sort of tone. It is and Belgium in 1915, and moved hardly at all for the important for our nation and our youth, and it is very following three years, so that the Western Front of appropriate. 1918 was only a few kilometres different from that of 1915. In those three years, thousands upon thousands of young men died. It is perhaps understandable that 4pm by 1918 the poetry that was being written by people Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD): My Lords, I such as Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon had a apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, for my very different line, which ran: inability to be present at the winding-up speeches “What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?”. owing to an unbreakable and very long-standing The war had lost much of its sense of gallantry and engagement. warrior ethic by the time, after three years, that it had I thank the Minister on behalf of all Members of ground itself into dust: blood and dead bodies up and this House for his remarkable, timely and appropriate down the Western Front. reference to the huge contribution made to this country Those who volunteered were mostly men. The House in the First World War by the Commonwealth. As he will understand that, given that my mother was one of rightly pointed out, literally millions of people from the great chroniclers of the First World War, Vera India, Canada, Australia, Africa and the Caribbean Brittain, it is worth remembering that many thousands served here. There were well over 1 million from the of young women volunteered as well, to serve very Indian subcontinent alone, as he said. They have not often, as she did, as unqualified nursing hands in the had as much credit or recognition as they deserve for war hospitals in France, Belgium and Britain itself. I that incredible act of kindness and goodness. Many of always remember her telling me what it was like as a them did not even know the country they were serving girl of 22 to hold the leg of a man that was being sawn in when they lost their lives because they had never off because he was suffering from incurable gangrene. been to or known anything about France or Belgium. The stories go on and on. Medicine in those days was I am very grateful to the Minister, as I am sure many nothing like what it is today. There were no antibiotics, 1253 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1254

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF CROSBY] rest of his life, and I feel sure that his experiences at the few anaesthetics and almost no relief from the endless front weighed heavily on him, in silence, for the remainder agony of the wounds that they suffered. of his life. I conclude by saying something about what we I will now fast-forward. I was born in 1936, so my should do in this memorial, and by thanking again my early years were dominated not by World War I but by noble friend Lord Gardiner for his remarkable work World War II. My father was away throughout that and the excellent programme he has outlined. Part of war and I lived with my grandparents. My grandfather that programme has of course an educational element, signed up for service as an air raid warden. He must to try and tell our young men and women in school have been very busy as I recall spending many nights and college today what that war was like and what we in the air raid shelter. Of course, he and I talked about should remember of it. However, the House will forgive war because the evidence of it was all around us: me if I say that it is not only a commemoration of the bombing night after night. But he would never talk suffering and sacrifice of the First World War. It is about his experience in World War I beyond saying also a recognition that we have to move toward that it was terrible and he was luckier than his comrades reconciliation to make sure that there are no more because he came back. such wars. It is worth saying, here and now, that there are reasons to thank God for the fact that for 70 years Years later, after he died, we found at the back of a we have not had a war in western Europe, and that we drawer a brown manila envelope. It was an official cannot imagine one happening now; in other words, envelope marked “On His Majesty’s Service”. It had the political mission of reconciliation has made war, at been sent to him by registered post. Inside this bent-over least here in Europe, close to an impossibility. envelope were two medals. One was inscribed “The I will quickly to tell the House about a remarkable Great War for Civilisation 1914-1918”. Almost 100 years gesture of reconciliation. On Saturday, I shall be going later, I have the envelope in my pocket. My grandfather to Hamburg, the most badly destroyed of all the cities was hugely patriotic, but I suspect he thought that in Germany in the last year or so of the Second World these medals I have in my pocket really belonged to War. Hamburg, that deeply destroyed city which was those who fell in the war and never came back to their known in Germany as “die Stadt ohne Nazis”—the families. town without Nazis; there were very few in Hamburg—is Many years later, as a young man, I came to admire going to name the embankment of its great canal after and respect a long-serving member of my then employer, my mother: the Vera Brittain Ufer. I mention that only a local authority. This elderly lady—although she was because we shall not forget that reconciliation is the probably no older than I am now—had never married. other great purpose of what we are trying to celebrate Instead, she had devoted her life to supporting seriously here in the coming four years of the centenary of the disadvantaged people through enormously hard work First World War. I conclude with one other sentence in charities, voluntary organisations and local government. from a modern poet, Wystan Hugh Auden: I became very fond of her and valued greatly her “We must love one another or die”. support. After she retired we kept in touch and I recall one evening having a chat with her over a cup of tea. 4.09 pm As always, she was keen to hear what we were doing for disadvantaged people, particularly in developing Lord Laming (CB): My Lords, I express my gratitude services for children and families. Suddenly, most to the Minister for the way in which he introduced this unusually, she went quiet and, looking wistful, said, “I important debate, and indeed for the thought that is know I have had a privileged life but in so many ways being devoted to the programme to commemorate the it has been an unfulfilled life”. centenary of the First World War. Much has been written about the events that led up She went on to tell me that at university she had to the declaration of war in 1914. Others have a real met the love of her life. He was older than her and interest in the military execution of the war and the went on to establish his career. They became engaged historical analysis of its outcome. But I feel sure that to be married and their hopes were great, having the Government’s programme will adequately allow found love early in life. Then came the declaration of for proper time to be spent recalling, with solemnity, World War I and her fiancé, her brothers and her male the impact that the war had on individuals, families, cousins all went off to the war. Tragically, not one communities and, indeed, the whole of our society. came back. A generation of young men was lost and That impact was not confined to the duration of the many young women like her were denied the future war but continued for the remainder of the lives of they had so much hoped for. Many followed her millions of people. In the time available, I will illustrate example of public service. Their sad loss was reflected this by brief reference to the impact it had on the lives in huge service to our country, for which we are of two people I admired greatly: one a man who went indebted. to fight in the war, the other a woman who stayed As we commemorate the 1914-18 war, let us not at home. limit our thoughts to those who died, important though The man was my grandfather. He was enlisted as a each one is, or to those who fought and came back; gunner in the Royal Artillery at the beginning of the rather, let us try to imagine the enduring impact the Great War. For him and others, this was “the war to war had on the lives of so many of our fellow citizens end all wars”. While serving at the front, he was gassed in so many ways. We owe them all a great debt. We but, unlike many of his comrades, he survived. Perhaps must never forget the price that was paid for our inevitably, it left him with breathing difficulties for the freedom. This programme to commemorate World 1255 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1256

War I deserves our full support. I am sure we all hope It is a sober thing but it is the fruit of remembering that we can do justice to them all because of all that our history. Organised force enables the peaceable to they did for us. go about their daily life and provides a breathing space in which the slow business—to which the noble Baroness, 4.16 pm Lady Williams, referred in relation to World War II—of building a better moral order can be undertaken. The Lord Bishop of London: My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister for the comprehensive and I must also declare a particular interest as an measured way in which he introduced this important ambassador for Remember WWI, an initiative which, debate and laid out the Government’s plans for this as the Prime Minister said in his message of support, commemoration. I also very much echo the words of seeks “to galvanise people to take part in active the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, about the emphasis commemoration”. We intend to channel, as far as we being placed on the Commonwealth dimension. I have can, the emotion generated by the commemoration had the privilege of participating in the annual observances into charitable activity of all kinds across Britain, and at the memorial gates since their inception. Remembering we are particularly grateful for the assistance that we the sacrifices that were made by so many of those have already received from DCLG. I should also like from Commonwealth countries who served provides to pay tribute to the contribution of the Very Reverend us with an extremely important opportunity to weave June Osborne, who has been part of the Government’s that strand into the national tapestry and our national organising committee for this commemoration. She identity. has circulated and been very active. Every one of our It is obvious that we cannot change the past, but we 16,000 parish churches and innumerable communities are responsible for how we remember it. Memory—and have received a comprehensive briefing and a list of its more active form, commemoration—is certainly suggestions and resources to help local communities more than just lifting down a file and recalling a past devise ways of remembering that are appropriate to event: it is a creative and responsible art which involves their circumstances. highlighting certain features and identifying significant As the Minister said, immediately and locally, resonances. As has already been suggested, memory Westminster Abbey will hold a candlelit vigil which informs our attitudes in the present and opens up or will be broadcast by the BBC, drawing on that famous closes down possibilities for the future. Therefore, the remark about the lamps going out all over Europe. programme that was outlined this afternoon is immensely The abbey will move from light to darkness until a responsible. single candle remains alight on the tomb of the unknown Our debate is very timely, coming just a few days warrior, and at 11 pm, the exact moment of the before the centenary on Saturday 28 June, when the declaration, it too will be extinguished. The hope is noble Baroness, Lady Williams, will be in Hamburg. It that all faith communities and local parishes will have is the centenary of the very day on which Archduke their own vigils, and there are resources, particularly Franz Ferdinand was assassinated, an event which on the abbey website, to help them plan. ultimately detonated the First World War. It was not Every cathedral—Catholic cathedrals, Anglican immediately recognised at the time as the historic cathedrals—has drawn up plans. We are grateful to the turning point that it undoubtedly was. Europe had right honourable Chancellor of the Exchequer and surmounted a number of crises in the preceding years. acknowledge his assistance in granting £20 million in At the time, many people agreed with the views expressed the Budget to both Catholic and Anglican cathedrals in The Great Illusion—an amazing book by Norman as a way of tackling urgent repairs and enhancing the Angell which can still be read with enormous profit. setting for the commemorative events. The first round Published in 1910, a short time before the outbreak of of applications closed on 30 May and we will have World War I, it argued that in an interdependent details of the grants awarded on 10 July. Obviously, international economy, war no longer made sense as war memorials will also be a focus of attention during victory would merely impoverish your customers and the next four years. The Church Buildings Council destroy your markets. Many were convinced by that. stands by to advise on funding from its own resources, Nevertheless, just a short time afterwards, the irrational from the War Memorials Trust and from the HLF happened. At the beginning of August 1914 Europe grant which has set aside £1 million for each of the was at war and the Armed Forces of the Crown—we next four years for war memorial projects. have had some marvellous evocations of this—not only from Great Britain but from other realms and In these commemorations we wholeheartedly salute, territories as well were called upon to make great as has already been said, the courage of those who sacrifices. during the past 100 years have served under the British The Minister made an important point by referring flag, and we remember with sorrow, pride and gratitude to those who have been so conscious of the horror and those who have given their lives, especially in the First irrationality of war that they have consistently embraced World War but also in the wars of the past century. We a pacifist position. Theirs is an important and proper honour those who, from our very diverse community, protest, but for most churches and religious communities, serve in today’s Armed Forces. This is the point of our remembering of history—our responsible remembering importance of these commemorations. As we navigate of history—has compelled us to come to a different now into a new multipolar world, as the period of conclusion. As it says in the 39 Articles of the Church unchallengeable Western hegemony passes into history, of England, it is lawful for Christians, our commemoration has to stimulate the deep reflection “at the commandment of the Magistrate, to wear weapons, and that we shall need if we are to avoid the mistakes of serve in the wars”. the past. 1257 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1258

4.25 pm slightly later, although the War Office would not allow the Ulstermen to form an artillery unit, which was a Lord Trimble (Con): My Lords, it is with a little nice little echo of the Indian Mutiny. trepidation that I follow the four excellent speeches that we have heard so far. I start by thanking the The 10th (Irish) Division was the first into action. Minister for his introduction to the debate, in particular It was dispatched to Gallipoli in 1915 and thereafter for his reference to the event that will take place on served in Serbia and Salonika before moving to Egypt 40 August in St Anne’s Cathedral in Belfast. I also in 1917 and taking part in the campaigns in Palestine congratulate the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, to the end of the war. Here, I have to declare an interest on the work that he has done regarding HMS “Caroline” in that my maternal grandfather was a member of the in Belfast, which he mentioned. It is the only surviving Irish Division. I never knew him—he died before I was veteran of the Battle of Jutland and will receive a born—but my grandmother was very proud of the fact grant of over £13 million for the construction of a that her husband was part of the army that liberated museum, to be ready for 2016, the centenary of Jutland. Jerusalem. I looked at the Library note on this debate. I am Such was the lottery of warfare that the 10th’s total sorry to say that in the six pages that it had on number of casualties throughout the war was just 10,000. conscription I did not see any reference to Ireland, That is quite a lot but the totals for the 16th and 36th other than in a little note at the bottom—in so far as Divisions were more than three times greater, one you can read a reference into it—which quotes the having a total casualty figure of 28,000 and the other Military Service Bill 1916, extending the obligation to, 32,000, although I shall not indicate which was which. The 16th (Irish) Division was first engaged at Loos “all male British subjects in Great Britain”. but it and the 36th Division were both in the Battle of Noble Lords may have noticed that no reference was the Somme, the Ulster Division on the very first day. It made there to Ireland. That shows to some extent how achieved quite a lot but, suffering considerable casualties, Ireland was different. I will come back to the questions had been withdrawn from the line after just two days of the anti-conscription campaign in Ireland and its of engagement. The 16th Division came in in September, role in Irish politics. spending more than a month on the line and ultimately In some other respects Ireland was the same. When suffering casualties not far short of those of the Ulstermen. the war broke out and we had Kitchener’s famous call There were those who at the outbreak of the war for volunteers, there was a strong and enthusiastic thought that the experience of the two volunteer forces response in Ireland, too, to what was essentially a fighting side by side would somehow defuse the incipient British publicity campaign. Kitchener’s first new army, civil war in Ireland and change the political context. It authorised in August 1914, contained six divisions, might have done so had the war been shorter and not numbers 9 to 14. Division 10 was an Irish division, as bloody, because the political context in Ireland with the full range of Irish regiments, by which I mean changed during the war, as people will realise. However, the Connaught Rangers, the Munster Fusiliers and those who saw this as a means of bringing the sides the Dublin Fusiliers, alongside the Royal Irish Rifles together tend to think mostly of the Battle of Messines and the Inniskilling regiments. in 1917, which was a curtain raiser for the Third Battle A difference from elsewhere in 1914 was that there of Ypres. It was the one time when the 36th and the were two private armies in Ireland, which were lining 16th were side by side and it was a comparatively up to fight each other over the issue of home rule. The successful operation. Ulster Volunteer Force, which was 90,000 strong and However, there is an interesting event that is an earlier that year had shipped in over 25,000 rifles and indication of what might have been. John Redmond’s 3 million rounds of ammunition, dispersed throughout brother, William, who was also a Member of Parliament, Ulster overnight in a motorised operation that preceded commanded the 6th Battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment Gallieni’s taxis rushing people from Paris to the Marne. in the 16th Division. He took part in the Battle of It can therefore be regarded as the first use of the Messines, personally leading his battalion, but was motor car on a substantial scale in a quasi-military seriously wounded. A stretcher-bearer from the operation. I am sorry—that little bit of local patriotism 36th (Ulster) Division, one John Meeke, discovered had to get a reference. Alongside the Ulster Volunteer this and went to his assistance. Meeke himself was Force was the Irish Volunteers, which was much larger then wounded twice and incapacitated. The two were in size but perhaps not as well armed. rescued some hours later by a patrol that was bringing Kitchener obviously wanted both. After a bit of back some German prisoners and William Redmond political toing and froing there was eventually an was then taken to an Ulster Division casualty clearing agreement and the 16th (Irish) Division was formed of station, where he died. Irish volunteers as part of the second new army. That To some extent, that symbolises the impact of the war is quite significant in Irish history, because John Redmond, and what might have been. In the period after the war, the leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, who in a because of the triumph of Sinn Fein and the culture that vague sort of way presided over the Irish Volunteers, then developed, the Irish Republic was an uncomfortable was strongly in support of enlistment in the army. place for those who had served in the British Army Indeed, he carried with him roughly 90% of the Irish and they were treated very badly in the 1920s. The Volunteers—a small split formed the Irish National atmosphere, thankfully, is changing, and changing Volunteers that year, people who largely provided foot quite considerably. It is no coincidence that both soldiers for the rebellion of 1916. The 36th (Ulster) Governments chose the area of Messines to erect the Division was formed from the Ulster Volunteer Force peace tower commemorating and honouring what the 1259 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1260 two divisions had done together. I heard with interest came from another line, and my dear friend, Percy, what the Minister said about looking for a way in was in the mud trying to survive. The sergeant drove which both sides can participate. us on and I landed up in a shell hole for three days and I want to conclude with a little comment on the three nights and cried my eyes out”. Battle of the Somme. I am concerned about the caricatures In 1924 he was standing at a bus stop in the Strand of what happened—they are not entirely accurate. A and along came a bus. The conductor on the bus was number of years ago, I came across a book by Christopher Percy. He said, “Percy is that you?” He said, “Yes. Is it Duffy, who has written on a number of military subjects. Douglas?”. By then the Strand was at a standstill. He wrote an account of the Somme entitled Through Everyone had heard the tale. I asked whether they met German Eyes. It is based on German material, examining again and he said, “Only once. We had a good drink”. the situation from the German point of view. In the That was the way it was. Douglas had thought he had course of this, he deals with the interrogation records lost his dearest friend and was under severe stress. He of British soldiers who had been captured by the became a Member of the Cabinet. I am looking across Germans. His book ends with a quotation from a at my good and noble friend Lady Williams who knew German intelligence summary drawn up at the end of Douglas better than most. He was a great man. the war, in which there is the following comment about British prisoners: I come to this debate with two or three strands; I mention this to my good friend from Newcastle upon “Most of the front-line soldiers too are extremely proud of what they have achieved so far. Again and again we hear from Tyne, Clayton Street in Newcastle—Woolworths, as it prisoners the self-satisfied question: ‘Don’t you think we have was then. I used to stand there trying to sell carrier done very well?’” bags to the shoppers to earn a copper or two to take home to Mam. Every time I stood there, half a dozen 4.34 pm people playing musical instruments would go by in the gutter—they were not on the pavement, they were in Lord Graham of Edmonton (Lab): MyLords,itisa the gutter. I said to Mam and Dad one day, “What are privilege to take part in this debate. We are all very those men doing?”. She said they were from the war. I privileged to reflect on what the words mean. I have said, “They were heroes”. Dad said, “Yes, they were been humble and proud to say to myself, “Wasn’t it heroes”. My tuppenceworth in this debate is that I marvellous to be here to listen to people talking about deeply respect what the Government have done and their reflections and experiences?”. are doing. They have done a marvellous job on preparation My contribution goes something like this: 10 or and, like other noble Lords, I only hope to be here 12 years ago we had a debate in the House of Lords in when we celebrate the end of the First World War, not the Labour group. I was the Chief Whip and I said to the beginning of it. my colleagues at the time, “I want you to be here next Tuesday about 8.30 when we are going to have an ambush. When one reflects on what happened in the Second Keep out of sight. Come in when the Division Bell goes.”. World War after the Great War—the war to end all A little chap at the back, called Charlie Leatherland, wars—20 years earlier, it beggars belief that we cannot who was the instigator of Essex University, got to his find a better system for looking after people in this feet and said, “Ted, you know I’ve got a bad leg. I can’t world. When people are driven, as they have been, into be here at half-past eight. Do you know where I got an internal war within a country, it is very sad. The this bad leg?”. I said, “No, Charlie”, and he said, “I got horrors that one sees on television and reads about, it on the Somme”. Another voice at the back said, “Yes, and what is happening to families and communities in Charlie, but you weren’t at Passchendaele, were you?”. the name of whatever you like to call it, is madness and we have to do something to stop it. I have always The hairs stood on the back of my neck. Charlie been a full supporter of what was called the Common Leatherland was about 4 foot 10 and Douglas Houghton Market. The reason I supported it then and now is was the other spokesman who said, “You weren’t at that you could conceive the possibility that if all of the Passchendaele.” He was a little bit taller—possibly up nations that got together—six and now 28—were linked to five feet. Here were two men who had fought for us in some way, that would be a good contribution to make. the Great War and survived, and were making a marvellous contribution. When Douglas was dying I Noble Lords will be pleased to know that I have went to see him in hospital and said, “Douglas, tell me almost come to the end of what I want to say. I about Passchendaele”. He said, “It’s all in one word— congratulate the Minister on what he has said and for mud”. He lay back on his pillow—he died two days telling us a great deal about what we did not know in later. The tears ran down his face and I said, “Douglas, general. I am sure that millions of people in this don’t upset yourself. I’m here. I’m your loving friend”. country will be thankful to him and his colleagues for He said that he wanted to tell me what Passchendaele sparing the cash, the time and the effort for the was like. He said that the night before the great attack commemoration on 4 August they were lined up on their side of no-man’s land and Finally, I stand as a man who was badly wounded the sergeant said that in front of them was a sea of during the war. I finished up on a hillside with my guts mud that they had to cross and get to the other side. in my hands—I had been shot through the back, They had to dive into a shell hole and wait for orders. bullets had entered my back and come out of my abdomen During the night, men had been out and laid duckboards into my leg—and I was almost dead. I thought I was across the mud. If they stuck to the duckboards they dead. There was difficulty in finding a doctor. However, would survive. If they fell in the mud they were told, one was finally found and he saved my life. The nurse “You can’t be saved; you’ll be dead”. He said, “So we said to me, “The doctor who saved your life is coming went off and after about 50 yards, a strangled cry round this afternoon”. I said, “Can I meet him?”. The 1261 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1262

[LORD GRAHAM OF EDMONTON] sight three men digging a trench thigh deep in the red soil, digging nurse said, “Yes”. I said, “Doctor, I am told you saved their own graves, as it chanced, for a bursting shell turned their my life and I am very grateful”. He said, “Well, let shelter into a tomb. There were more corpses than men, but there were more sights than corpses. Limbs and mutilated trunks, here me put it like this: if I had got to you 20 minutes later and there a detached head, forming splashes red against the green you would have been dead”. Here I am, 70 years later, leaves”. and very grateful to be here. It was, he said, “our crucifixion of youth”. 4.45 pm But it was not just the fighting soldiers of the Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD): My Lords, following 38th Division that showed courage. The stretcher bearers the deadly struggle of the 38th (Welsh) Division to climbed again and again from the battlefield up over take Mametz Wood, a key point in the Somme offensive the ridge, taking the wounded by the shortest route to in July 1916, some people in Wales called for the the 13th RWF aid post beyond. They were in full view cancellation of the National Eisteddfod which was of the enemy with no cover from the barrage of hostile due to take place some four weeks later in Aberystwyth. guns. In the middle of the afternoon, a howitzer shell To sing, they thought, was unseemly in such circumstances. destroyed the aid post, and with it, the battalion David Lloyd George, then Secretary of State for War doctor and six stretcher bearers. and shortly to succeed Mr Asquith as Prime Minister, On the following day, Mametz Wood was penetrated encouraged the gathering to continue and spoke from to its furthest edge and finally taken with devastating the Eisteddfod platform: losses. The 38th Division suffered 8,000 casualties “Why should we not sing during the war? It is true that there over those two days. The 13th Rhondda Battalion of are thousands of gallant men falling in the fight—let us sing of the Welsh Regiment went in over 1,000 strong and their heroism. .... Let us sing of our land that gave birth to so only 135 answered their names at the first roll call many heroes”. afterwards. Lloyd George added: Today, the Welsh Dragon stands proud over Mametz “Our soldiers sing the songs of Wales in the trenches, and they Wood as a memorial to the 38th Division. It is in the hold their own Eisteddfod behind them”. process of being refurbished for ceremonies to remember It was true. the battle and its terrible toll. At three o’clock on the dawn of 9 July 1916, as told by a survivor, the 16th Royal Welsh Fusiliers were in The Royal Welsh Fusiliers was the regiment of the position in the sunken road before Mametz Wood. poet, Robert Graves, who fought at Mametz Wood. It They were exchanging banter between themselves and was the regiment of Siegfried Sassoon, who won the singing snatches of Welsh songs. Their colonel, Colonel Military Cross for bravery.Sassoon rescued two wounded Ronald Carden, a cavalry officer and a famous polo men from a 25-foot deep crater under enemy fire. He player, joined them to lead the attack. He was was known as “Mad Jack” for his reckless courage and immaculately dressed, carrying nothing more than his later, for another feat of valour, he was recommended officer’s cane. Someone in the ranks struck up for the Victoria Cross. Yet Sassoon became sick of the “Aberystwyth”″, the Welsh setting of Charles Wesley’s, killing fields. Emmeline Pankhurst published his A Soldier’s Declaration “Jesu, Lover of my Soul”. Your Lordships will know , a statement read out by a how the music moves from the poignant minor key of Labour Member of Parliament to a shocked House of the first two lines into a triumphant major conclusion Commons. Sassoon wrote: of hope and of redemption. When it was finished, the “I have seen and endured the sufferings of the troops, and I colonel said: “Boys, make your peace with God! We can no longer be a party to prolong these sufferings for ends which I believe to be evil and unjust. I am not protesting against are going to take that position and some of us won’t the conduct of the war, but against the political errors and come back, but we are going to take it. This”, he said, insincerities for which the fighting men are being sacrificed”. tying his handkerchief to his cane, “will show you The War Office could not court-martial a decorated where I am”. Brandishing his cane in the air, he led soldier, so he was deemed to have suffered a nervous them out of the road, up and on to the four hundred breakdown. He was sent to a hospital, where he met a yards of bare open ground which led to the impenetrable fellow patient, Wilfred Owen, a man born at Oswestry tree line and the machine guns within it. He shouted. on the Welsh border of Welsh and English parents. “Come on, boys”, and started to run forward. He was Sassoon encouraged and helped Owen to write those hit almost immediately, but staggering up and still scorching war poems, set to music by Benjamin Britten encouraging his men, he made another dash forward in his moving “War Requiem”, which we in the Parliament before he was hit a second time and fell dead. Choir have performed both in Coventry Cathedral Waves of the 14th (Caernarfon and Anglesey) and and at Westminster. the 15th (London Welsh) Royal Welsh Fusiliers followed, breaking through a hail of bullets and bombs in Both Sassoon and Wilfred Owen returned to the which, so the survivor said, it seemed impossible for Western Front, Sassoon to be wounded severely in the men to live. The Swansea, Rhondda and Carmarthen head, and Owen to win the Military Cross for bravery battalions of the Welsh regiment attacked through the but alas to be killed just at the end of the war. His very centre of the German lines. The wood rang with parents learnt of his death on Armistice Day. the noise of rifle and bomb and the cries of men The Welsh poet, Ellis Humphrey Evans, whose shouting their battle cry, “Stick to it, Welsh”. Captain bardic name was Hedd Wyn or “Blessed Peace”, was Wyn Griffith of the 15th Royal Welsh Fusiliers described also of the 15th Regiment of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. what he saw: While released briefly to get in the harvest on his “Blue sky above, a band of green trees, and a ploughed father’s farm at Trawsfynydd, he wrote a poem which graveyard in which living men moved worm-like in and out of he entered for the chair competition at the 1917 National 1263 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1264

Eisteddfod in Birkenhead. However, on the day of the commemorated but not, I respectfully suggest, the war ceremony, he did not answer the call of the bardic itself and not its commencement. Its ending is another trumpets; Hedd Wyn had been killed at Passchendaele matter. five weeks before. The chair he had won was draped in I should mention some personal family matters. a black shroud. My father was born in 1895 and was 19 when war broke So what should we commemorate in these coming out. He had an elder brother who had been to Sandhurst four years? I shall be joining with the Parliament and was a regular soldier anyway, and he had a twin Choir and the Bundestag Choir to celebrate more than brother. After leaving school my father went to Ceylon 70 years of peace between the nations of western as a tea planter. When war broke out he joined the Europe in our joint concert in Westminster Hall on Ceylon Planters Rifles and fought in Gallipoli and 4 July. We shall be singing together Mendelssohn’s Mesopotamia. His twin brother and elder brother “Lobgesang”, whose climactic conclusion is: were in the Army fighting in Normandy. My father The night has passed, the day has come. was wounded three times but was fortunate and survived. Let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armour Both his brothers were killed. They and others like of light. them are the ones who should be commemorated. I know that I shall be thinking of my mother’s They are the victims of that terrible war. cousin, 2nd Lieutenant Jim Morgan Williams, who Whether the war was a political necessity I do not said goodbye to his wife a fortnight after they were know. I do not know enough about the history to know wed to join the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. She never saw whether, at that time, it was necessary to preserve the him again. He was killed at Ypres on the 9 May 1918. safety of this country and its citizens. Whatever the She was by that time carrying their son, Glyn. She justification—or lack of it—the war itself was surely a brought him up as a single mother and a widow. He terrible event for all those who had to take part in it. attended my grammar school in Wrexham, gained a They deserve commemoration and I wholeheartedly Meyricke scholarship to Oxford, took his degree, and support the notion that they should be commemorated, then joined his father’s regiment as a lieutenant. He but not that the war itself should be. was killed on 28 July 1945, after the war in Europe had ended, when his jeep was driven over a destroyed bridge at the Rhine. 4.57 pm Hedd Wyn wrote in his poem “Rhyfel”, or “War”: Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con): My Lords, the House Mae’r hen delynau genid gynt, has listened to a number of extremely moving speeches. Ynghrog ar gangau’r helyg draw, Much has been made of the fact that World War I A gwaedd y bechgyn lond y gwynt, involved virtually every family in the land. I have been A’u gwaed yn gymysg efo’r glaw. encouraged to say a few words about the involvement of my own family. I do so in no sense of belief that it is The harps to which we sang, are hung in any way unique but simply because it might be On willow boughs, and their refrain illustrative, an example of what many millions of Drowned by the anguish of the young people went through at the same time. That includes Whose blood is mingled with the rain. not just the armed services but those who made their contribution in other services. I begin with my paternal grandfather. He was the 4.54 pm first professor of engineering at Oxford University. Lord Scott of Foscote (CB): My Lords, World War I The department was set up in 1908 and in 1914 it was began, as everyone knows, in 1914 and continued for entirely dispersed so that staff could take part in the four years until 1918. The Motion before the House is war and play their role. My grandfather was swiftly to take, swept up by the then Ministry of Munitions and “note of the programme to commemorate the centenary of the found himself helping to design improvements to the First World War”. aircraft that were by then being used on the Western That centenary is 100 years but, in effect, the question Front. The frail, wooden-framed, canvas-covered planes is—as the speeches in your Lordships’ House indicate— were almost the first example of air power being used whether and to what extent one should accept a Motion in war. In fact, he invented a new, more robust covering. to commemorate the First World War. There is a story about that but not time for me to tell it. If anybody wants to know it, I will tell them later. I would wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support a Motion to celebrate the end of the First World War His nephew, Louis Jenkin, joined the first squadron but find it a little difficult to celebrate the commencement of the Royal Flying Corps when the war broke out. He of that terrible war. I find it difficult to accept that the fought on the Western Front, was awarded the MC war itself should be celebrated and commemorated. and Bar and died on active service—he went on a What should be celebrated and commemorated, I mission and never returned. His name is recorded on respectfully suggest, is the bravery, sacrifices and fortitude the memorial to which my noble friend referred in his of the many men and women, soldiers, airmen, sailors impressive opening speech, the memorial at Arras, and—as we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Thomas where all the flying services are commemorated. of Gresford—stretcher-bearers, nurses and doctors in My grandfather’s younger son had always wanted the field. All these people—many of whom died, were to be a naval officer. He went to the Dartmouth Naval wounded or suffered—fought in the Great War. Their College before the war and served in the Navy. He was sacrifices and valour, tears and miseries deserve to be in action in the North Sea—whether at the Battle of 1265 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1266

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] I mention all this not because my family was in any Jutland, I know not, but he certainly saw service against way unusual—millions of others did the same— the German Navy. Sadly, he succumbed to appendicitis but because it is a very good reason why we are and peritonitis. There were no drugs then, and I have commemorating the First World War in the way that no doubt that the medical services on board ship were my noble friend described so admirably at the beginning fairly rudimentary, but I and the family still regard my of the debate. As others have referred to, it is right that Uncle Conrad as a casualty of World War I. we should commemorate that war in which so many millions of people were involved. This is an opportunity His sister joined the famous Room 40 at the Ministry to remember and to ponder. of Defence. I am sorry that my noble friend Lady Trumpington is not here, because they were the Bletchley 5.06 pm Girls of the First World War, the Ministry of Defence’s intelligence service. I know not what they did, because Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab): My Lords, it is a she never spoke about it. She regarded it as entirely privilege to follow that very moving speech by the confidential and secret. She became quite well known noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. He gave us all in later life and was known to millions of children as cause for thought, as indeed did my noble friend Lord Aunt Elizabeth in the BBC radio programme, “Children’s Graham of Edmonton just a few moments ago. I do Hour”. She eventually succeeded Uncle Mac as the not think I have heard a speech of that power from head of that service. such a senior Member of your Lordships’ House for a very long time and I certainly look forward to him I think it will interest my noble friend Lord Gardiner being able to be with us in 2018, when I think he will to know that my mother’s brother joined the Army be just 93, to regale us some more. right at the start of the war. I have to say that I never thought that he was cut out to be a soldier, but he Lord Graham of Edmonton: Is that a promise? fought at Gallipoli. He was so horrified and appalled by the slaughter that he witnessed that when he returned to civilian life in the Civil Service, he insisted on Lord Faulkner of Worcester: It is a promise. I joining what was then called the Imperial War Graves congratulate the Minister not just on his excellent Commission. He spent his entire career in the Civil opening speech but on the part he played in persuading Service with the commission. He became an expert on the usual channels that we should have this debate the cemeteries all over the world. He had huge admiration today. The number of speakers indicates how much for Sir Fabian Ware, who had set up the commission interest there is in your Lordships’ House in the centenary even during the war. I was interested to read the brief of the outbreak of World War I. description of the commission’s work in the excellent This interest is reflected in the country as a whole, note we had from the Library, which chimed very where the range of events, initiatives and projects is much with my uncle’s career. He eventually rose to be truly impressive. I shall speak about some of those in a financial secretary of the commission—it was his entire moment but, first, I express my appreciation to the life’s work. I just mention his younger brother, who Government and particularly to the Prime Minister’s was also in the Navy, who was too young to fight in special representative, Dr Andrew Murrison, for getting World War I, but served after that and was tragically the programme up and running after it was first thought killed in an accident on HMS “Courageous”. about in 2011. It was then that I was asked by the War Heritage All-Party Group, which I chair, to write to The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, was a very good the Prime Minister because we were a little concerned friend of General Sir Philip Christison, who became a that there seemed to be some lack of preparedness in very famous general in World War II. In World War I, the UK for the centenary, compared with what was Philip Christison served in the Cameron Highlanders being planned in other Commonwealth countries and and was severely wounded on the Western Front. His in France and Flanders. That letter seemed to have own brother, John, was killed at the same time. Philip some effect because, very soon after, I got a reply from was invalided out but he made the Army his career Mr Cameron and Dr Murrison was appointed. Quite and in World War II, he was the first general to beat soon after that, the Government’s advisory board on the Japanese on land and took their surrender at the World War I centenary commemoration was Singapore in 1945. established and I am very proud to be serving on it. I have left to the last our most poignant memorial It is very much to Dr Murrison’s credit that the tone of the war: my father’s involvement. He was the professor’s and content of the programme is correctly nuanced. elder son and he joined the Oxford and Bucks Light That was very much reflected in the Minister’s speech Infantry as a subaltern. He fought on the Western this afternoon. It would be so easy to get this wrong Front and, at the Battle of the Somme, he was hit by a but I do not think that we have. The theme of bullet from a German machine gun. Mercifully, it hit commemoration—not celebration—is absolutely right, his helmet. Unlike the noble Lord, Lord Laming, who as is the determination to combine traditional acts of has that famous envelope in his pocket, I have always remembrance with new initiatives to engage as much understood that to bring visual images into the House of the population as possible. is against the rules. However, we have that helmet at It is not possible in a debate like this to do justice to home with a hole in it and it is a very treasured everything that is going on, so I shall just mention just memorial for my family as without that helmet, none a few events. The Minister has rightly drawn attention of us would be here. My whole family depends on the to the major national programme of events that starts in fact that my father survived. August—the services at Glasgow Cathedral, Westminster 1267 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1268

Abbey, St Symphorien and others. The school battlefields range of local organisations, including all the major visit programme is hugely significant, and I commend museums, the University of Worcester, the cathedral, the Department for Education and the Department the Worcestershire regimental associations and many for Communities and Local Government on managing more. Its purpose is to tell the story of Worcestershire’s to find £5.3 million to send two pupils and one teacher experience of the Great War and its legacy through from every maintained secondary school in England exhibitions, trails and school and community activities, to make a four-day tour of the battlefields and take on both the home and battle fronts. part in remembrance ceremonies on the Western Front. We are also celebrating the lives of two individuals Despite having been present at it numerous times, I who contributed hugely in different ways, both with still find the Last Post ceremony at the Menin Gate in very strong Worcester connections: the music hall Ypres extraordinarily moving, particularly when a young artiste, Vesta Tilley, who was born in Worcester and person from one of our British schools says the eventually married a Conservative MP—well, no one exhortation from Laurence Binyon’s poem “For the is perfect—and the Reverend Geoffrey Studdert Kennedy, Fallen”. better known as Woodbine Willie. He will have a Another initiative that I commend to your Lordships special place in a service in Worcester Cathedral. is the one in which my all-party group has played a Tomorrow, local residents are being invited to come major part. I am referring to the efforts of the to a bell tent at the Commandery in Worcester to Commonwealth War Graves Commission and the In share, donate or loan artefacts, memorabilia and stories From The Cold voluntary organisation to map war that show how the war touched everyone’s lives. The graves in each parliamentary constituency in the United bell tent will later go on tour around the county. Kingdom. Between us, we have been encouraging local I shall finish by referring to one of the first MPs and Peers not only to visit them but to engage commemoration events we will have this year, on with the local community and schools so that they 31 October, which is the centenary of the stand by the understand the significance of these graves, the impact 2nd Battalion The Worcestershire Regiment at the Battle of world wars and the continuing importance of of Gheluvelt. Military historians more knowledgeable remembrance. than I say that this was a crucial engagement as the There are CWGC graves and memorials in 13,000 Worcesters and the South Wales Borderers held the locations across this country, and more than 300,000 line against a German advance in the very early weeks Commonwealth men and women who died in both of the war. world wars are commemorated in the UK, more than Not just in Worcestershire, but all over the country half of them casualties of the Great War. Up to the there will be exhibitions, parades, concerts, church end of last week 144 visits for MPs had been organised, services and remembrance events over the next four and a further 76 are planned for the summer and the years. I am confident that the tone will be right and autumn. I visited three sites in Worcester last Friday that the programmes will be imaginative, appropriate with the local MP, Robin Walker. We were guided and, above all, non-partisan. I thank the Minister for impressively by the CWGC’s Andrew Crompton, and the opportunity to talk about some of these events I thank him on the record for what he did for us then. I today and to play some modest part in the programme reinforce the Minister’s praise for the Commonwealth in the future. War Graves Commission for what it does not just in this country but all over the world; we owe it a huge 5.15 pm debt of gratitude. Baroness Seccombe (Con): My Lords, I am most I am pleased that there is a cultural programme grateful for the opportunity to debate this subject in alongside everything else that is going on. I was very this first year of commemoration of the Great War of moved by what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of 1914-18. Whenever I think of those years, my mind Crosby, said about the World War I poets. Yesterday I fills with memories of my father, who would never played a part in a very special event in the Cotswolds. speak of the carnage and slaughter that he witnessed A special train was chartered from Oxford, stopping in northern Europe. The conditions in the trenches at the site of Adlestrop station. It was exactly 100 years were atrocious. He was left weakened and subsequently to the day, and almost to the hour, after the train led a short but, I am glad to say, happy life. carrying the World War I poet Edward Thomas stopped, as he put it, “unwontedly” and provided the inspiration My village of Kineton has—as most villages have—a for his much loved poem “Adlestrop”. He of course memorial to those who lost their lives during the joined up the following year, in 1915, and was killed at 1914-18 war around which we stand on Armistice Arras in 1917. I had the privilege of reading the poem Day. We have a gifted local historian, Gillian Ashley- on the train’s public address system. Smith, who has researched the life of the village at that time, particularly the families of those names are on If your Lordships will allow me to stay in my own the memorial. The village was immersed in the life of county of Worcester for a moment, I would like to the Warwickshire hunt, whose kennels remain very commend what is known as the Worcestershire World close by. The families in one way or another revolved War One Hundred project, which was one of the very round it, and it was said that there were more horses in first to attract a major Heritage Lottery Fund grant of Kineton than there were people. Many people were £353,000 towards a total cost of £675,000. This is employed in the supporting services required, so it is being led by Dr Adrian Gregson, head of the county’s no surprise to learn that in August 1914 the grandfather archive and archaeology service and Worcester city of the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, the councillor. The project has brought together the widest then master of the of the Warwickshire hunt, called 1269 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1270

[BARONESS SECCOMBE] Back home, with most of the men gone, one can on the hunt to muster men with their horses, grooms, imagine the change in village life. The women responded vets and the farriers to fight for King and country. All by working on the land and running the shops—indeed, the hunt stablemen had already left by train for medical turning their hands to any work not covered, manual tests in Scarborough. They were seen off at the station or not. Of course, this was in addition to organising by one of the village benefactors with a parting gift of their, usually large, families. In one way, it gave women £2 for their willingness to serve King and country and a first opportunity to work outside the home—but, for with a promise to pay their return costs if they failed some, it must have been an intolerable burden. Everyone their medical. in the village contributed in one way or another. The war effort was what mattered. The grand ladies of the A meeting was held in the school to hear an village willingly offered to have hospital beds in their impassioned plea for volunteers. The local GP, homes and a Mrs Fielden, the wife of the joint master Dr Oldmeadow, said, “Man for man our men are far of the hunt, set up a 63-bed VAD hospital with all superior to the Germans and countrymen nearly always services provided free. These beds were all occupied by make the best soldiers. They are more hardy and they December 1914. In the mean time, the older men of are used to discomfort”. A separate appeal was made the village formed themselves into the forerunner of to the women of the village to encourage their husbands the Home Guard. and sons to sign up. Many enlisted in the Warwickshire There is so much more that I could say about these Yeomanryand after training began a horrendous journey, wonderful, generous and patriotic people. The best during which they were torpedoed off the Scilly Isles, way I can end is to repeat the poignant words on the then towed for two days to southern Ireland. Sadly, village memorial: “For God and King and country four of the yeomen lost their lives, as did three horses. they gave their all”. Eventually they arrived in Gallipoli in 1915. Most of the yeomen became involved in trench warfare, having 5.23 pm dismounted, while the remainder cared for the horses. They were fearless fighters and 14 men were lost and Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I first pay particular 19 were injured in the four months they served in tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, Gallipoli. The regiment was evacuated to Alexandria, for his memorable contribution to the debate. He and after numerous battles against the Turkish, German mentioned Newcastle, and I know that he will be as and Austrian armies in Sinai and Palestine they advanced pleased as I am that the Renwick memorial will feature to Mutaret-el-Baghi and sheltered under a low ridge—and on one of the Royal Mail’s new stamps to be published so began last great cavalry charge at Huj. in a few weeks’ time. In 1976, the late Lord Avon published his On the 96th anniversary of the battle—8 November autobiography, covering his life between 1897 and 2013—my son Philip went with a small group of 1917. It was a personal account of his younger days former yeomen to visit the battle site. The group and of his experiences in the Great War as an officer. included my noble friend Lord Cope of Berkeley, the It is a fascinating account of an era long gone. In the former honourable Member for Weston-super-Mare, final sentence of the book, Lord Avon says: Jerry Wiggin, and his son, the present honourable “I had entered the holocaust still childish and I emerged Member for North Herefordshire, Bill Wiggin, who tempered by my experience and bereft of many friends, but with are the son and grandson of Major WH Wiggin DSO my illusions intact, neither shattered nor cynical, to face a changed of the Worcestershire Yeomanry. Also present was the world”. son of Lieutenant Colonel Greycheape DSO, who He used the word holocaust, and it was a holocaust commanded the Warwickshire Yeomanry. because it was slaughter on a mass scale. He talked about a changed world, which is why he gave his These two commanding officers faced three batteries autobiography the title, Another World—for that is of Austrian gunners and around 2,000 Turkish what it was. infantrymen. There were 190 men mounted, with swords drawn, who began the charge at a trot, increasing to a Many autobiographies were written at the time or gallop. The dust and the noise from all this activity shortly after—some of them in the years leading up to alerted the enemy gunners who started firing all around the Second World War—and I would like to concentrate at short range. The yeomen just kept on charging, with on the three themes of legacy, remembrance and men and horses falling quickly around them. As a reconciliation. First, we have to remember that 9.5 million result of these heroic actions, the Turkish gunners fled soldiers died in the Great War on all sides. With all the and this small number of yeomen captured the four national fervour in all countries in August 1914, very guns and took 90 prisoners. One of the guns is on few understood what they had unleashed until very display in the regimental museum in Warwick. much later. I do not see our commemoration of those years being just about 1914 to 1918, because the Victory in all battles comes at a cost and, sadly, Versailles settlement was in 1919 and most of our war around half of the soldiers and horses were killed or memorials were constructed in the 1920s, so most will injured. The whole incident took only minutes, but have their centenaries between some five or six years was highly significant as it enabled the regiments to and 15 years from now. In terms of public funding to press northwards to Jerusalem under the command of mark their centenary, I hope this can be borne in mind. General Allenby, the father of the noble Lord, Lord I am deeply impressed by the work of the Imperial Allenby. For their actions on this day, both Lieutenant War Museum and the British Library. The First World Colonel Greycheape and Major Wiggin received bars War Centenary Partnership by the Imperial War Museum, to their existing DSOs. with its exhibitions, events, digital resources, along 1271 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1272 with those of the British Library, are extremely important, war to have a specific commemoration in the media— because they extend the availability of archives across perhaps on the “Today” programme in that exact time the world. I pay tribute, too, to schools for their work slot—on the exact centenary of their deaths. in enabling young people to understand more about There are many possibilities. Some are well known, the war, which is in part the consequence of the such as Rupert Brooke and Wilfred Owen, but others national curriculum. The plans over the next five years less so; for example, the Scottish composer, Cecil for educational visits and funding for conservation Coles, killed in 1918, whose work “Behind the Lines” projects involving young people—for example, plans was composed on the Western Front and found in the for commemorative paving stones where recipients of archives of George Watson’s College in Edinburgh a the Victoria Cross lived—are all good to see, because few years ago. Some of his manuscripts still had they are all things that give a local dimension to shrapnel embedded in them. His work “Cortège” was national commemoration events. I hope that, when used by Channel 4 in its series on the First World War commemorations are complete, we will leave as a but his quality as a composer is less widely known. legacy war memorials, and buildings that serve as war Perhaps there could be a commemoration of such memorials, with secure financial futures. I hope, too, people in the course of the next four years. that, with the legacy, there is a deeper understanding Finally, on reconciliation, I am very pleased that a of the importance of diplomacy. It was the devastating football match is to be held on Christmas Day to failure of diplomacy which led to military planning commemorate the Christmas truce. It is very interesting dominating decision-making in the final days before that so many letters from British soldiers who witnessed war broke out. I am one of those who believes that, that evaded any form of censorship and describe the with better, faster and more inclusive diplomacy, the events and reveal the feelings of men as individuals, war could have been localised in eastern and south-eastern who time and again did not want to be killing other Europe. However, as we know, Germany invaded Belgium soldiers. I am also very pleased that the event at the and war was declared. St Symphorien Cemetery is being held as an act of Much of the remembrance will be spontaneous. We reconciliation. As the Minister said, that is where will remember the countries that supported us, the British and German troops were buried close to each Commonwealth, and countries in Europe that supported other in August 1914. Of course, in 1918 Mons was us as our allies. But in all of these, can we remember the site where the final shots of World War I were the role of the Chinese Labour Corps, which made an fired. Might it be possible to give consideration to immense contribution to the war effort, particularly what might happen in 1918 to mark the closure of the on the Western Front? physical conflict? The nature of war changes. It is too easy to apply On the remembrance events, I notice from the hindsight to what happened in the First World War Library note that peaks of activity will be based on but the lessons learnt in that war are enduring and particular anniversaries and major political and universal. parliamentary moments. That is right—I understand that—but I hope that, as we commemorate those 5.33 pm events and moments, we will never forget that it was Baroness Flather (CB): My Lords, I thank the noble individuals who died and that individuals should be Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, for giving us such an remembered as individuals, not just as a statistic. So, interesting snapshot of the events that are likely to as an example, when we come to commemorate the take place. We do not always get to hear what might be first day of the Somme battle, on 1 July 2016, in which happening and now we will have a record in Hansard 20,000 British troops died, we will remember that each to see what is planned. I thank him for that. I also was an individual. I wonder whether in local churches thank him for the opportunity he has given us to the names of those who died, listed on war memorials speak about what is very close to our hearts. So many in our towns, villages and cities, might be read out on, noble Lords have spoken about this event—can you or close to, the centenary of their death. Their names call it an event? I do not know whether it is an event, appear on most war memorials and most can be or what it is, but it was particularly awful. As I grow traced on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission older, I find images of war more and more upsetting. I website and other similar sites. It is possible to track just cannot get my head round the fact that we did so most if not all of them. Perhaps I might add to the much killing of each other, but that is a different point. words of warmth for the Commonwealth War Graves Commission. It does a brilliant job. All the war graves People have spoken about their own personal I have visited—recently the First World War cemeteries connections. The noble Lord, Lord Laming, said that in north-west Italy—are maintained to the highest we are losing that connection because our generation possible standard. will probably be the last one that has a personal connection to anyone who was in the war. My father The noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, referred was a stretcher-bearer in Mesopotamia. He would not to the centenary of the poem “Adlestrop”. I will make talk about it. Other noble Lords have said that their a similar but different point. Yesterday the “Today” fathers would not talk about it. Their experiences were programme marked the centenary of the writing of so appalling that they were not able to share them with “Adlestrop” by Edward Thomas by having it read by their families. My brother was 12 years older than me his wife, Helen. Of course, as the noble Lord reminded and I asked him whether he would talk to our father to us, Edward Thomas was killed at Arras in 1917. That see whether he could get some information. He told has provoked me to consider whether there might be me that my father would not speak about his experiences plans for all poets, writers and composers killed in the but I think that they must have been awful for him 1273 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1274

[BARONESS FLATHER] almost every theatre in Europe and other countries— because he came from a privileged background and France, Belgium, Aden, East Africa, Gallipoli, Egypt, was a student in this country. Mahatma Gandhi said Mesopotamia, Palestine, Persia, Salonika, Russia, and that Indian students could volunteer for the war effort even in China. There was no area in which the Indians but should not volunteer to kill people. That is why my had not taken part. father became a stretcher-bearer. We have heard how I could say a lot more but I see that time runs hard the war was for stretcher-bearers. In addition, given on—as it always does. However, I want to say a word my father’s background, he must have had great difficulty about the memorial. There was no memorial to the with all kinds of things—for example, the food. One Indians, the Africans or the West Indians. It was for thing we learnt was that he had to live on bully beef. me a sad realisation that they had not been remembered. Of course, as most noble Lords know, Hindus do not In the Second World War 2.5 million Indians took eat beef, so he had to put up with some little things part and were much more crucial than even in the and some big things. Some of us therefore have a First World War. Who was crucial in the First World connection with the Great War through our families. War? People were being sent to die for yards of land. The term “Commonwealth” has been used; indeed, The noble Lord, Lord West, said that there were clever that term is used continually. We have to realise that people in command, but you sometimes wonder. The the Commonwealth is a new creation; it did not exist respect for the lives of men was practically non-existent. during the Great War. If we use just the term It is said that the life expectancy of an officer in the “Commonwealth”, we subsume in it the Indian war was six weeks. That tells us something. contribution, which was very substantial and more I should also like mention that the father of the than that of most other countries, including that of noble Viscount, Lord Slim, discovered the Gurkhas some other colonies. India was a colony at that stage. during the Great War and connected himself to them The Indian contribution stands on its own and needs after that. I wish that he was speaking about his father to be remembered as that and not be subsumed into because he was an important figure during the first that of the Commonwealth. and second wars. The dominions were in a different position at that The right reverend Prelate has been such a support time and they are still in a different position now. In to us over the memorial. He has never missed a single fact, one of the reasons why the Indian political ceremony, which we have each year—otherwise the leaders encouraged Indians to volunteer was that they memorial becomes just stone. We want people to come hoped that India would acquire dominion status after and realise that it is something. Someone said that it is the war. They had reason to believe that some concessions about people. Yes it is about people, and that is why we might be given to India after the Great War. Unfortunately, have the ceremony at the memorial. I have been having things did not quite work out like that, and 1919 was a a continuous battle with David Dimbleby because he particularly awful year, but, again, that is a different does not mention the Indians except during the wreath story. It is important that India’s contribution is not laying. Six or seven people lay wreaths, and he mentions sidelined and does not become a footnote. I do not all the kith and kin, the dominions, but not the Indians. think that is fair. India provided a huge number of Things have to change in the next four years, and the men and large amounts of material—1.5 million men. Indians should be given their proper place. The princely states sent their armies to join the military here. The Kashmir regiment was sent to east Africa and was commanded by General Smuts, who tried to 5.43 pm get behind the Germans. Eventually, there was virtually Lord Selsdon (Con): My Lords, my contribution no one left, not because of the fighting but because of will be in two parts, if that is acceptable. I speak first dysentery and malaria. Only about 20 men were left in as someone who—I was about to say, “was dropped in the end because of sickness, so things were not particularly it”—was the sponsoring Peer for the great event we wonderful. held, with students and others, in September last year. While we are thinking of the Indians it is very The theme was, “The Great War: Listening to the important also to remember that the Jamaicans were Past; Talking to the Future”. I have in my hand a at the Somme. A lot of people do not know that and collection of excellent photographs of students waving do not think about it. Not many Jamaicans or people their hands with enthusiasm to speak, with my noble from the Caribbean were involved in the Great War friend Lord Astor of Hever looking resplendent on because that area was not heavily populated. India the Front Bench, together with my noble friend Lord was an enormous source of men and materials, whereas Gardiner of Kimble and, of course, the redoubtable the Caribbean islands were not but they still sent men. noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead. It took the Jamaicans six months to get permission to What I thought I should do, with your Lordships join the British Army and possibly die for the mother approval—or without it, because Hansard will publish country. These issues are extremely important for the this—is assemble some nice document, with a disc, future of this country because the people who live here and send it off to all those students who were here, now are connected to those events and should be because they are tomorrow’s members of the Armed aware of what their ancestors did. They were prepared Forces. At this present time, it would not be a bad idea to give their lives. What else is left when you are to give people great encouragement. prepared to give your life? Then we have the Africans. I thought that maybe I should look back. I have They, of course, fought in Africa because the Germans already researched some of my family details, and were there. In the Second World War, the Africans thought it was surprisingly easy. I would say to the fought in other theatres. The Indians fought in outside world that every family will have had someone 1275 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1276 who fought in the Great War. You may find that some If we do our research, we will all find out things died, and if you want to know where they are, the about families and wars. I have a habit of wanting to Commonwealth Graves Commission’s website, and its rewrite the history of each war, believing that most help, is absolutely magnificent. You may also find, if people do not understand what it was. I wonder why you have a fairly simple name, that you have a lot more we talk about wars. We have the First World War and relatives than you ever dreamed possible. the Second World War, but maybe we would relate This is one of the suggestions. It is not to glorify more to great battles. The other day I asked the war, but to encourage people in this particular year to Imperial War Museum whether it would give me a list look and see who their family and friends were who of great British battles. They go: Naseby, Blenheim, fought in the Great War. Your Lordships will know Culloden, Plassey, Quebec, Lexington, Salamanca, well that Members of this House died in that war— Waterloo, Aliwal, Balaclava, Rorke’s Drift, Gallipoli, although, as I discovered in my research, not as many Somme and Megiddo. I had not realised that Megiddo as I thought. Most noble Lords were past the age of is present-day Israel, Jordan and Syria—maybe there being recruited by the time they got in the House. You is potential of another conflict there. will find in the note produced by the Library lists of If you write on battles, a bit more knowledge is members of the House staff who were killed and their difficult to find. At school we were always taught to various memorials. remember battles with a phone number. The battles I would like to suggest that people give a thought to were BROM: Blenheim, Ramillies, Oudenarde and what their families did. I had a look at my mother’s Malplaquet—I think the number was 4689. I have family. I wanted to know who had died when and forgotten which century they were—I think it was where. I found there was an Uncle Maurice, who was something-64, 74 or 89. You learnt about battles in killed two weeks after he entered the war. We found his history because they were important. Now, in a way, memorial. We did not know he had other relatives. I people steer away from war or battles. then found that, in the same family, there was another I feel very enthusiastic about this debate. I hope Maurice who had been killed. I did not know that that your Lordships will help in this initiative, to their father had tried to get in the war but was perhaps circulate to all the students who came on that day not suitable, so he managed to get in as a chef. That is something that will encourage them to do more research. perhaps why we knew that family had no abilities for I also hope that we will encourage every family in the cooking at all. world to make inquiries. Local authorities are proving I will explain what I did. I asked my mother if she very helpful in this. It is not a matter of celebration, knew about the war. She did not, really, but we found nor even of remembrance; it is a matter of family that my great-grandfather had a daughter who wanted knowledge, which could be helpful in boosting the to marry an officer in the Indian forces. He did not like image and reputation of people’s families and friends. that, so he kindly suggested that the officer came back to England and he gave him a nice house and a 5.50 pm commission. When the war came my great-grandfather wanted to fight, but he could not because he was too Baroness Crawley (Lab): My Lords, whenever we old. He wrote to the Admiralty—I have raised this in walk through a town square or are on a village green your Lordships’ House before—and suggested that his and we see those war memorials of which the noble yacht, Venetia, might be pressed into service. The Baroness, Lady Seccombe, spoke so movingly, and we Admiralty duly accept. Venetia went to sea, was fitted read the names of the young men who died for their with depth charges, blew off her stern off Harwich country in the First World War, it is hard not to be fairly early on and failed to do very much. However, stunned by the terrible loss of life that affected every my great-grandfather got an award and a cheque from community from tiny hamlet to major city. Our own the Admiralty—we think it was for 100 guineas—which dead numbered more than 900,000, and I include he put in a frame and hung in a downstairs place, so those from Ireland in that. Those people did not come that when people sat on the seat they would for ever home to raise their families, to enjoy their grandchildren read and remember the historic meanness of the or to tell their story. We often talk in this House about Admiralty. These are little things that help one to lost generations but theirs truly was. think and enjoy life. Whatever our personal interpretation of history or My grandfather, Crossley Swithinbank, was in the the decisions made at that time by our leadership, we Navy, as most of the family have been, and got Malta need our own Government today to be able to put dog while in Malta, which is something that rather together a centenary programme that will truly honour affects your insides. He was then told he would be and respect those who fought so valiantly 100 years invalided out. He wanted to go off to war but found ago. Therefore, I warmly congratulate the Government that no one wanted him. He and his brother-in-law, on the scale and reach of their programme for the my great-uncle by marriage, Stafford Cripps—who commemoration of the centenary of the First World was also invalided out as unsuitable—took a double- War. I particularly acknowledge the role that the noble decker bus and went to the front as stretcher-bearers. Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, has played in this My great-grandfather thought that this was not good House, always being open and accessible to noble enough, so he commissioned his coach-builder to build Lords from all sides of the House in our discussions a special ambulance, which he then sent out. They with him about various aspects of the programme. found that they had started almost a private ambulance I want to take a few minutes of your Lordships’ operation, which, with all the destruction that took time to indicate the way in which government and civil place at that particular time, caused great anxiety. society can and do combine their resources in such a 1277 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1278

[BARONESS CRAWLEY] are plans for an official commemoration of the battle momentous endeavour as this commemoration. As involving representation from the Chilean navy, the noble Lords are aware, and the Minister has reminded Royal Navy, the Canadian navy—six Canadian sailors us, the main themes for the commemoration are education, were killed aboard the British ships, the first Canadian youth and remembrance. It was with this in mind that casualties of the First World War—the German embassy, I approached the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, the British embassy and the Coronel civic authorities. six months ago with a proposal for a musical project That is an example of government and civic society from the music education organisation Musiko Musika, working together to find ways through to successful of which I am patron. outcomes for our young people. I am sure that the Musiko Musika and its children’s orchestra, ECCO, various performances of the requiem by those young are based in London. The organisation works to bring people will be successful in the autumn of this year the skills, discipline and sheer pleasure of the orchestra both here in the UK and in Chile. The children who to inner-city schoolchildren. There is a Chilean influence take part will not forget this important battle or the in its music and some of its personnel, and the directors, war, and they will have grasped their history through Mauricio and Rachel, wanted to write a requiem to music—what better way? commemorate the Battle of Coronel. The requiem would record this historic event and the lives that were lost when two Royal Navy armoured cruisers were 5.58 pm sunk by the German fleet off the coast of Coronel, Baroness Suttie (LD): My Lords, my great-grandfather, Chile, on 1 November 1914, with 1,600 British sailors Alexander Suttie, like so many of his generation, did perishing. It was the Royal Navy’s worst defeat in not like to talk about his experiences in the First more than a century. The Royal Navy responded a World War. Indeed, one of the very few facts that we month later with the destruction of four German have been able to ascertain about his war experience is ships, and by the end of 1914 the German threat to that his regiment trained at Stobs camp near Hawick our trade routes was eliminated. in the Scottish Borders. This music project would culminate in performances As schoolchildren, we used to explore the ruined of the requiem in Coronel, Chile, in London and in army huts at Stobs camp and I used to often walk Bridport. The overall aim would be to develop through the deserted camp on my way to climbing the understanding and links between children and their hills around Hawick. I always found it a rather desolate communities in England and Chile, and for them to place, perhaps remembering the tales that my father experience history as relevant to their young lives would tell of the place in the camp known as “suicide today.The project would mean, first, sharing an experience corner”, where several people took their lives, particularly of World War I history that was relevant, enlightening German prisoners of war. and thought-provoking for young people. Secondly, it At its height during World War I, well over 10,000 would develop a body of knowledge and understanding troops were stationed there—mostly Scots but also of that very significant battle, enabling people from troops from around the British Empire. Many thousands Britain, Chile and across the world to have access to of German prisoners of war were held there and they that knowledge and understanding in an online archive. helped to construct the huts and the sewerage system Lastly, the schools and children involved would develop in the camp. There was even a German bakery, which new skills, passion and motivation for investigating provided bread for the soldiers. and exploring history as a means of developing human understanding and co-operation. The requiem would In May 1916, one Scottish soldier based in Stobs be performed in October/November this year in London, camp wrote: Chile and Dorset. “We have 5,000 German prisoners here and they have a better time of it than us. They bake all our bread, carrying an Iron Cross With the enthusiastic support of the noble Lord, on it. Some of our boys don’t like it but to my taste it seems all Lord Gardiner of Kimble, I approached the Government right. We have about 15 thousand of our boys here and the bands’ in the form of Helen Grant, a Minister at the DCMS, playing all day make the place a bit lively”. with the proposals and asked for: first, lots of support; One week later, however, the same soldier remarked: secondly, government co-operation; and, thirdly, a “It has rained ever since we came here, we are all fed up with small amount of cash. Well, two out of three ain’t bad, the mud”. as the song goes. Helen Grant’s team has been very Among the many Scottish troops who trained at helpful in recognising the community potential of the Stobs camp were several battalions of the King’s Own proposed project and has pointed us in the direction of Scottish Borderers, who then went on to take part in various possible sources of support. The Government the Gallipoli campaign in the summer of 1915. Ten have also helped in opening up contacts for Musiko years ago, when I was working in the European Musika at the British embassy in Chile. I am delighted Parliament, I went on an official visit to the Gallipoli to report that Musiko Musika is now directly in touch peninsula organised by the Turkish Government with with the new British ambassador out there, as well as the Irish President of the European Parliament, Pat the defence attaché at the embassy in Santiago, and Cox. Pat Cox was very keen to pay his respects at the they are very much looking forward to being part of a graves of the many Irish soldiers who lost their lives in co-ordinated set of events being planned around the Gallipoli. As we were leaving the British war memorial anniversary of the battle. I spotted a large shield-shaped stone. It read: As the defence attaché himself has said, the Battle “From the town of Hawick, Scotland. In grateful memory of of Coronel was a highly significant historical event, as the officers and men belonging to that town who fell in Gallipoli well as, of course, a tragedy for the Royal Navy. There in the Great War, 1915”. 1279 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1280

Although I was obviously deeply moved by the whole scale and I believe it is vital that the centenary is used sombre mood of the windswept peninsula, it was not to inform and remind both schoolchildren and adults until I saw—quite unexpectedly—the name of my of the tremendous sacrifices made by the many across home town, Hawick, that I was able to understand just our communities, including those from my small home what an impact the deaths of so many men would have town of Hawick, 100 years ago. had on one small community back home. More than 50 men from Hawick died on 12 July 1915, and more 6.05 pm than 100 local men in total died there. Lord Thomas of Swynnerton (CB): My Lords, I, like In researching my remarks for this afternoon I other noble Lords, am of the generation of the noble came across a report on the events of 12 July at Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby. I belong to a Gallipoli, written at the time, from the 4th Battalion of generation which was concerned in our childhood the King’s Own Scottish Borderers. I believe that it is with the Great War, as we referred to it. We had not, of worth quoting a couple of excerpts. course, participated in it. We remember from our An account of the charge was written for the record childhood how everything stopped at 11 o’clock on 11 by Captain—afterwards Major—W T Forrest, who November to commemorate the war before World was subsequently killed in Palestine. He wrote: War II. In the 1914 war, my mother—as we are referring to family relations—was a VAD, which stood for “It is with sadness one takes up the pen to put on record the voluntary aid detachment. She was a nurse in deeds of the Battalion on and around the 12th of July, 1915, when so many good officers, N.C.O.’s, and men laid down their lives. Mesopotamia and perhaps she knew the father of the However, it is their just due that these deeds should be put on noble Baroness, Lady Flather. Mesopotamia is, of record, so that future generations may know what Border men course, a much nicer word for Iraq, which we used were able and willing to do in the interests of King and Country”. until Iraqi independence. She was under Turkish guns Another officer of the battalion further recorded of on a train going up to Kut Al Amara. “What was it events that day: like being under Turkish fire?” my children would ask. “The scenes outside the dressing stations in the Nullah ... were “Well, it wasn’t at all agreeable”, my mother would beyond description. Around each station were rows upon rows of explain, “but it was nothing like so disagreeable as stretchers—each containing what had been or, rather, what remained being under the mosquitoes in Basra”. That was the of a human being. spirit that probably helped to win the war. The slightly wounded were waiting in long queues for treatment. I have a personal recollection, too. I knew Harold What impressed one was the absolute deathly silence which Nicholson, the young diplomat who carried the ultimatum prevailed over each station—not a word or a groan to be heard. from the Foreign Office to the German Embassy in We could find none of our own men among these cases, which probably had all come in from the later attack of the 157th Brigade”. Carlton House Terrace, where it was received with the greatest melancholy by the Anglophile German Such was the scale of losses that day that every year Ambassador Prince Lichnowsky. Harold Nicholson there is a memorial service in Hawick, and in 1926 the remembered for the rest of his life just how sad the shield that I saw in Gallipoli to the men of Hawick German ambassador was on that occasion. was installed under the names of the King’s Own Scottish Borderers’ missing and dead. In relation to this terrible conflict, it is important to realise that it was the catastrophe which caused European I was very pleased to hear from my noble friend the civilisation to collapse—to commit suicide. Of course, Minister that there will be an extensive schools programme our first responsibility—no doubt about it—is to recall as part of the commemorations. It is deeply appropriate what happened to our fellow countrymen in France. that pupils from Hawick High School this year and My first publisher, Douglas Jerrold, a Gallipoli veteran next will have an opportunity to participate in a UK-wide gave a moving description in his book, Georgian Adventure project organised by the Gallipoli Association for of watching eight lines of men who passed me going 2015. But if my small home town of Hawick lost more up to the Front in France “so closely that I could see than 100 men in Gallipoli, 34,000 died from across every expression on their faces as they faded into the Great Britain and Ireland, and we must never forget mist, and among all those men marching so resolutely the horrendous loss of life from the Anzacs: nearly to wounding or to death, I saw not one expression of 9,000 Australians and just under 3,000 New Zealanders fear, or regret, or even surprise”. died. More than 1,300 Indian soldiers lost their lives, We need to remember that not only Britain and the including 371 from the Sikh 14th Regiment. imperial defence forces suffered but the sacrifices made One hundred years on it is virtually unimaginable by our allies—especially the French but also the that we could ever return to trench warfare with our Americans, the Russians and the Italians. We have not European partners. For all its imperfections, the European heard any of those countries mentioned this afternoon, Union provides a very effective series of mechanisms which is surprising. Perhaps they should have been. for resolving difficulties and disputes between our We should recall that our enemies in 1914—above countries. all the Germans, but also the central Europeans and The events of a hot June day in Sarajevo 100 years the Turks—suffered greatly before siding with us ago led to a series of events and human slaughter on a substantially in the Cold War in which we could have scale never witnessed before. I therefore believe that been consumed had it not been for their help and that those who have queried whether we are right to carry of others. It is worth while recalling that the greatest out a series of commemorations to mark the start of of Americans alive in 1914, in my opinion, was Henry the First World War across this country are mistaken. James, who became a British citizen in 1915. He was We are not glamorising war by remembering its true once walking past Buckingham Palace with his brother horror. It was a truly awful war on an unimaginable the philosopher, William James. Henry raised his hat 1281 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1282

[LORD THOMAS OF SWYNNERTON] Redmond Catholics. They were commanded by an to the flag flying over the palace. “You do love the Anglo-Irishman, Colonel Lenox-Conyngham from the English, don’t you”, said William. “Why is it?” “Well, Royal Irish Fusiliers, and the devotion they gave to William”, said Henry, “it’s because they’re so decent and him was immense. Indeed, he was killed at their head so dauntless”. I trust that we should enjoy that accolade at the battle of Guillemont. if the worst came to the worst in the 21st century. My noble friend also mentioned the significant Talking of our enemies, it is fair to say that the best battle of Messines. The order of battle reads like an novel about the approach to the war of 1914 was the imperial roll call. It consisted of the New Zealand Transylvanian Trilogy by a Hungarian Miklós Bánffy. Division, the 4th Australian Division and the 36th and He was an Austro-Hungarian aristocrat who lived in 16th Divisions, about which he has spoken. The ironic Transylvania, which was destroyed by the Treaty of St thing about that battle is that it is regarded as one of Germain afterwards. We should recognise that his the great tactical successes of the war. However, like so work articulates nobly the continent-wide nature of many of the others, it was sadly not exploited afterwards. the tragedy of the war. Perhaps I should declare an Following the end of the Great War, for the first interest as I wrote the introduction to the Everyman 80 or so years after the formation of the Irish Republic— edition of that great book. again, my noble friend has referred to this—the attitude This has been a marvellous debate, full of fascinating of the state was to airbrush the Great War out of the memories. We should, and will, remember for a long national consciousness. The result was that many, time the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Graham of mainly Catholic, families whose forebears had served Edmonton. We will also remember the speech of the in the war acquired a sense of guilt to the extent that noble Lord, Lord Shipley, recalling the memoirs of their forebears were treated as skeletons in the cupboard Anthony Eden—Lord Avon—with his interesting and any connection with service in the British Army descriptions of life in the war and before. was not talked about. I have it on the authority of my One more thing we should remember is that the war honourable friend Conor Burns, the Member for had many long-term reasons, which historians have Bournemouth West, who comes from a Catholic Belfast gone into with great care and interest—I studied the family, that his forebears—there were at least two—were origins of the First World War as a special subject at never mentioned at all. Like many others, he is putting Cambridge—but the immediate cause of the war was that right. an act of terrorism by a young Serbian, Gabriel Princip, Of course, the relationship between the United who was too young to execute despite being found Kingdom and the Irish Republic has, over the past guilty of the pointless murder in Sarajevo. The fact 10 years, been transformed, starting with the Good that the Archduke Franz Ferdinand was probably the Friday agreement and followed by the invaluable work most thoughtful of the leaders of the Austro-Hungarian done by the two Presidents, Mary Robinson and Mary Empire and that his morganatic wife, Sophie Chotek, McAleese, leading to a visit by Her Majesty the Queen was completely innocent should not be forgotten by in 2011 and followed by the recent successful visit of those considering equally vile terrorist actions today. President Higgins to London this year. One Member of this House, the late Lord Amery— Very much under the initiative of the last two Julian Amery—met Princip’s father in Belgrade in 1938. presidents, the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin “Yes”,said Princip’s father, “it was a tragedy about poor has been restored; there has been a significant increase Gabriel: he would have been so useful in our printing in tourism from the Republic of Ireland to the France office”. Alas that he did not stick to printing. and Flanders war cemeteries; and in the Republic there has been an awakening of interest in the history 6.12 pm of the five disbanded regiments. Viscount Bridgeman (Con): My Lords, I, too, have Going back to the 6th Connaught Rangers, I should been immensely moved by the speech of the noble have said that the British-Irish Parliamentary Group Lord, Lord Graham of Edmonton, who is not in his took evidence from the newly created 6th Connaught place at the moment. As a newly arrived Peer, I, too, Rangers Regimental Association, which has been mirrored was privileged to hear Lord Houghton’s story of the among the other five regiments. It is significant that duckboards and Passchendaele and, to close the record, President Higgins paid a visit to St George’s Chapel Percy’s bus was a number 24. I pay tribute to my noble Windsor in the course of his visit here, where the friend Lord Gardiner for the huge amount of work he colours of those regiments are laid up. has done in co-ordinating the commemorations and Your Lordships will be aware that the British-Irish for the masterly speech he made today. Parliamentary Assembly, which meets annually in the My noble friend Lord Trimble has given a great account Republic or the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man or of the southern Irish divisions in the First World War, the Channel Islands, will in September this year be about which far too little has been known until recently. meeting at Ashford in Kent, from where an expedition As he has told us, the 16th Division comprised by Eurostar will be made to the Flanders battlefields. overwhelmingly the five regiments which were going What were the motives of the Irishmen who enlisted to be disbanded in 1922—the Royal Irish Regiment, in the British Army in 1914? These differed between the Leinster Regiment, the Royal Dublin Fusiliers, the the north and the south. In the north the motive was Royal Munster Fusiliers and the Connaught Rangers. clear: it was a determination to remain under the The Connaught Rangers had an interesting and British Crown. What inspired the many volunteers exceptional battalion—the 6th Battalion—which was from the south of Ireland is less straightforward. For raised in west Belfast and, to a man, consisted of some it was, undoubtedly, the opportunity to get away 1283 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1284 from the poverty of many families at that time. However, bring. I have asked myself, “What would I have done there was the emotional spur—again this has been in that type of situation? How would I have coped? referred to by my noble friend—that the Irish nationalists Indeed, would I have coped?”. Of course I cannot under the leadership of John Redmond had secured answer those questions, but in my attempts to understand the passage of the Irish Home Rule Bill of July 1914, what life as a soldier was like, I have read many which excluded the counties of Ulster at that time as first-hand accounts. I am pleased to see that many are the exact number was still to be determined. The now being reissued in time for the centenary, and I Home Rule Bill was effectively suspended for the would highly recommend to noble Lords who have duration of the war but there is little doubt that many not yet done so to look at them in order to get a feel of the volunteers who joined the colours in 1914 were for what people had to go through in the awful inspired by Redmond’s leadership and encouragement circumstances of 100 years ago. and the perception of what he had achieved for Ireland as they saw it. One might almost say that Redmond It was called the Great War at the time, but the represented the Irish version of “Your Country Needs conflict has long since become known as the First You”. World War. I would say that it is also the case that it was notable for producing a considerable number of Be that as it may, in the Great War, 210,000 men “firsts”. The most obvious may be the use of tanks, from the island of Ireland served in the British Army, aeroplanes and submarines in combat, but there were of whom some 35,000 died, and probably at least half several others. As the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, of those came from the south. We from both sides of mentioned in his address, it was the first war involving the Irish Sea can take pride that in this and coming Britain that had a citizens’ army. There was that initial years there will be many Irish soldiers, whose bodies rush of enthusiasm to volunteer, which saw 2 million lie in France and Flanders, whose graves will be visited men and boys join up. I use the term “boys” advisedly by their families for the first time in nearly 100 years. as thousands were accepted below the statutory minimum age of 18. Some, incredibly—but it has been proved—as 6.20 pm young as 12 were accepted into the forces. Not unnaturally, the fearsome casualties suffered in the first two years Lord Watson of Invergowrie (Lab): My Lords, as saw that enthusiasm naturally evaporating, which led many noble Lords have said in this very interesting to the introduction by the Government for the first debate, it is important that the events that will time of conscription. It was the result of the Military commemorate the centenary are just that: commemoration Service Act 1916, which at the time was debated at and not celebration. I am not aware of anyone who some length both in this Chamber and in another has suggested celebration, but of course victory was place. important. Indeed, it was vital, but it came at such a terrible cost. All the millions who died in that conflict I was glad to hear the Minister mention conscientious can never be forgotten. Over and above those who objectors in his opening remarks, because that Act died there was the ripple effect on the parents, wives, also set out for the first time a legal basis for conscientious husbands and children who found it impossible to objection. That is not to say that conscientious objectors banish from their minds and their lives the loss they had not been accommodated before—Quakers were suffered when their loved ones either did not come exempted from military service as long ago as the back from the war or returned in such a state that mid-18th century—but this was the first time they had there was no longer any prospect of what might be been granted absolute exemption, provided they could termed a normal life. convince a military service tribunal of their convictions. I am pleased to see that education has been placed In total, some 16,000 were able to do so, and although at the heart of the Government’s commemorative many performed civilian service in various forms during programme over the next four years. I have a personal the war, some did join the Army in non-combatant perspective on that because education was what drew roles, including acting very bravely as stretcher-bearers me to the First World War as a school student at the at the front. time of the 50th anniversary of the Battle of the The war of 1914-18 was also the first in which there Somme. The events then on the Western Front simply was a home front. Civilians became directly involved, jumped out of the books and grabbed me, and I have and indeed even became casualties, within just four to say that that grip has not been relinquished in the months of the war beginning when German battleships years since. As the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, mentioned bombarded Hartlepool, Scarborough and Whitby on in her interesting and moving speech, my grandfather the north-east coast. It was the first time that Britain also refused to talk to me when I asked him about had been attacked since the Normans. There were also what had happened. He had been with the Argyll and hundreds of civilian deaths, mainly in London, as a Sutherland Highlanders in the trenches on the Western result of the bombings by Zeppelins, and these acts Front, but he would not say a word about it. It was assisted in increasing the determination of people to quite clear that he had locked and bolted away the see the war out until victory was achieved, whatever memories inside his mind because they were just too the cost. awful for him to release. He lost many comrades in the conflict and yet, in a real sense, they never left him. For the first time, women were given roles in industry Over the years I have made many visits to the in occupations hitherto strictly reserved for men, such battlefields in France and Belgium, including those on as in munitions and engineering. Few women retained which my grandfather fought, and it has often been those jobs in peacetime, but there was greater difficult to suppress the emotion that those visits understanding and acceptance of women’s contribution 1285 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1286

[LORD WATSON OF INVERGOWRIE] Congregational church in South Wales and joined the to and place in society, and of course the first votes for 10th Battalion of the Denbighshire Yeomanry in 1913. women came in 1918, although it was 1928 before full It was a territorial battalion and could not serve in enfranchisement was won. France, and therefore he transferred to the South Wales I would also argue that the First World War was Borderers and was taken to France in August 1914, influential in shaping the perception of people in along with so many others. He served with that battalion Britain of the meaning and role of society and their as a machine-gun officer through the Somme and place within it. I have already mentioned the determination other battles right up until February 1916, when he to ensure that the war was won, and that kind of volunteered to join the Royal Flying Corps. solidarity and unity of action saw the development of For many months he heard nothing, but then on a collectivist nature in many parts of the country, the evening of 3 July 1916, when his battalion, along particularly the large conurbations. The main beneficiaries with a number of others, was waiting to attack Nametz were the Labour Party and the trade unions, which Wood—referred to earlier by my noble friend Lord both witnessed a surge in support and influence in the Thomas of Gresford—he was ordered to take his post-war period. As evidence of that, I would cite machine-gun battalion forward to take part in the the 1910 general election, the last to be held before the operations. He then received orders to go at once to outbreak of war, in which the Labour Party gained the Royal Flying Corps. He begged permission to take just 7% of the vote. In the 1918 election that percentage his machine-gun section forward anyway, but that trebled. The party won just under 30% in 1922, and permission was refused because he had to join the the following year it was in government, albeit in a Royal Flying Corps that very night. Another officer minority. I doubt that the party’s advance over that was ordered to take his section forward. They were decade and a half would have been as dramatic had wiped out. My father never got over that. He could the First World War not happened. never speak of it without emotion and he felt that he I am pleased that the commemorative events will had abandoned his men in their hour of need. begin with a church service at Glasgow Cathedral, the He served in the Royal Flying Corps, first as an city which I had the honour of representing in both observer and later as a pilot. One of his closest friends the other place and the Scottish Parliament. In July was Captain Quintin Brand, as he then was. He was a and August, Glasgow will host the Commonwealth frequent comrade, and later of course he became Air Games, and it is appropriate that with so many Marshal Brand. They were close friends for many Commonwealth leaders in the city, they should be years, and he was my brother’s godfather. In early invited to join the opening of the Government’s 1918, my father was posted to the United States to programme. This will enable the inaugural event to train the then fledgling United States Army air force, highlight the invaluable contribution made by many and returned to the United Kingdom in December Commonwealth countries to the war—a narrative that 1918. While he was in the United States, the Royal Air I would say has for far too long been restricted to the Force was formed and he was automatically transferred contribution of the predominantly white countries of to that new force. what was the Empire and is now the Commonwealth. How he survived nearly two years in the trenches The extent to which many thousands of people from and then a similar period in the Royal Flying Corps India, British East Africa, British West Africa and the and later the Royal Air Force I shall never know, but I Caribbean volunteered to assist in the war has already venture to suggest that my father, along with so many been highlighted in the debate. The word “volunteered” others that we have heard about today, discharged his is important. There was no conscription for them. duty freely in the conflict that we remember so much People from the Empire and the Dominions felt a today. commitment to defend the interests of what they saw Later, my father was elected Liberal MP for Hackney as the mother country. I believe that we should never South and then for Aberdeen North before coming to underestimate or, worse, underplay their contribution. your Lordships’ House in 1947. In 1947, as your Finally, I want to say a word or two about how a Lordships will not recall but I can tell you—the House bridge should be built within my country between the of Commons was sitting in this Chamber, because the First World War and the present day. In Scotland, Commons Chamber had been bombed out, and the 26% of those who marched away to war did not House of Lords was sitting in the Robing Room. I return. In the rest of the UK—which included the know that; I was there. I was aged six when my father whole of Ireland, as we heard in the speech of the was introduced to your Lordships’ House. noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman—it was something like 12%. I hope that as the constitutional future of 6.30 pm Scotland is being vigorously discussed and will be voted on in under three months’ time, the great sacrifice Lord Rogan (UUP): My Lords, it is with a degree of made by the people of Scotland for the United Kingdom reverence that I approach this afternoon’s debate. As a a century ago will be duly remembered. young boy growing up in Northern Ireland in the aftermath of the Second World War, my youth was filled with the immediate deeds and sacrifices of service 6.27 pm men and women who fought in that conflagration. Lord Trefgarne (Con): My Lords, I beg leave to tell However, I was also brought up with those from a noble Lords about the contribution made by my late previous generation who had first tasted the bitter gall father to the conflict we are discussing today. He was of war on an industrial scale on Flanders fields. For born George Garro-Jones, the son of a minister in the me, the First World War was a living history. The men 1287 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1288 who had survived the Somme, Messines and Ypres—or There is much more that I could and would like to say “Wipers” to the Tommies who served and fought about the valour of the Ulster Division, but I want to there—were relatives and family friends. Those who urge those developing the commemorations to give did not survive left behind the still visible evidence of full recognition to the 300,000 Irish servicemen from broken homes and broken lives. the whole island of Ireland who answered the call in My grandmother saw three sons go off to Flanders 1914, the majority of whom came from what was and welcomed home one. This sacrifice was typical of shortly to become the Irish Free State. In particular, that of many Ulster families and indeed families the 38,000 casualties drawn from the 10th and 16th throughout the kingdom—no more so than those from (Irish) Divisions, who served in Flanders, Gallipoli, the “pals battalions”, raised and recruited from whole Messines and the Middle East, deserve their rightful streets and districts of the industrial cities of northern place in our centenary of events. England. Who can visit the First World War battlefields As the noble Viscount, Lord Bridgeman, alluded and gaze up at the hundreds of names engraved on the to, the memory of the Irishmen who served with memorials and not be moved by their sacrifice? compatriots from across the Empire has been rehabilitated Life, however, does not stand still. While those in recent years after a shameful period of neglect in formative memories remain clear to me, I find it southern Ireland that was in large part manufactured. difficult to accept that it is 100 years since hostilities “It would be hard, indeed, to estimate the size of the gathering. broke out among the European great powers—an It did not, however, number less than forty thousand. From an early hour people began to arrive by every kind of vehicle and on event as distant from today’s youth as the Crimean foot, and an hour before the ceremony began the wide open space War was from me. “Lest we forget” was the promise of in the Phoenix Park surrounding the Wellington Monument was the living to the dead of the Great War, and it is a densely crowded”. promise that we should not renege on. So read the Irish Times report of the Armistice Day There is and will be much debate about how the commemorations in Dublin in 1926. It is proof that First World War should be remembered, and some of history is rarely black and white. the suggestions I suspect would infuriate and astonish The centenary commemorations of the Great War the men of 1914-18. That debate I leave to others, save will serve many purposes, but one, I trust, will be to that the programme for commemoration must reflect encourage greater recognition of our shared history all of those who served. In that, I am particularly across these islands. conscious of the immense contribution of the men of “They went with songs to the battle, they were young, Ulster and the rest of Ireland. Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow. Robert Quigg was born on 28 February 1885 in the They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted; townland of Billy, outside Bushmills in north Antrim. They fell with their faces to the foe”. Like many others, he joined the Ulster Volunteers in In death there was no distinction; nor should there be January 1913. He went to war with the 36th (Ulster) in their commemoration. Division and was serving near Le Hamel on the Somme under his platoon commander, Lieutenant Harry 6.38 pm Macnaghten, heir to the estate on which Quigg had worked. On 1 July 1916, they advanced against heavy Baroness Howells of St Davids (Lab): My Lords, I German machine-gun fire and, by that evening, many am enormously grateful to the noble Lord who men lay dying and wounded in no man’s land, including encouraged me to take part in this debate. He knows Lieutenant Macnaghten. Robert Quigg volunteered to whoheis. leave the comparative safety of the trenches and go Like everyone on all sides of this House, I express out to look for his commander. He did not find him, my gratitude and support for the efforts being made but he returned with a wounded soldier. He went out up and down the country to mark the centennial of again and, having not found Macnaghten, returned the 1914-18 war. Our national commemorations also yet again with a wounded soldier. He did this seven contribute to the global tributes being paid to the men times, rescuing seven comrades, only stopping when and women who lost their lives in defence of the realm. complete exhaustion overwhelmed him and, unfortunately, I warmly encourage the House to ensure that those not locating Lieutenant Macnaghten. commemorative activities taking place along the length Sergeant Quigg was awarded the VC, survived the and breadth of our lands recognise and include the war and died on 14 May 1955. Several Bushmills descendants of those servicemen from the Caribbean residents decided about two years ago to raise sufficient who stood by the United Kingdom and fought and money—we estimated that £75,000 was needed—to died so bravely. They were not conscripted; they were erect a permanent memorial to Sergeant Quigg. I was volunteers. Lest we forget, I remind the House that only too willing to become a patron of the scheme, thousands of servicemen from the Caribbean answered and I am confident that we will have achieved this by the call during the First World War. During that time, the 100th anniversary of Battle of the Somme. It will West Indians were recruited to work in armaments be a lasting memorial to men such as Sergeant Quigg, and chemical factories, and West Indian seamen were so that future generations may remember and respect. among the thousands of black men who manned Much has been written of the sacrifices of the 36th merchant ships throughout the war. (Ulster) Division. After the war, King George V paid Some 15,600 black volunteers joined the British it the following tribute: West Indies Regiment. Black volunteers who fought “Throughout the long years of struggle … the men of Ulster alongside other servicemen will have descendants and have proved how nobly they fight and die”. family members alive today across the country. I am 1289 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1290

[BARONESS HOWELLS OF ST DAVIDS] the Government to subscribe to that fund. We are sure that it is our wish that the contributions made nearly there and need only a little more. I would be by their ancestors to our country are acknowledged grateful if he bore that in mind. throughout this milestone commemoration. Battalions Finally, I ask the Minister to remember the words of the British West Indies Regiment served in France, written by Robert Burns, set to music by the composer Palestine, Italy and Egypt, suffering 1,325 casualties. William Shield and sung throughout the land: Some 1,400 black seamen from Cardiff also lost their “Should auld acquaintance be forgot, lives. And never brought to mind?”. We will all be familiar with the black British serviceman Or, should we, and I think that this is a time when Walter Tull, of Barbadian parentage, who died in 1918 we will, after receiving a commission as a second lieutenant. “tak’ a cup o’ kindness yet, Yet less known is that, despite a colour bar on officers For auld lang syne”, in the British Army, a number of other men of black and offer some recognition to the West Indians who and non-white West Indian heritage received commissions. fought in the First World War? I encourage noble These included George Bemand, Norman Manley of Lords to know that at this moment West Indian people Jamaica, and Dr James Risien Russell, who served in who fought are not allowed to march to the Cenotaph. the Royal Army Medical Corps. Moreover, 130 black They have their own celebrations. This is the time to men were decorated for bravery for services during suggest that that be remedied. that war. This included five Distinguished Service Orders, nine Military Crosses, two MBEs, eight 6.46 pm Distinguished Conduct Medals, 37 Military Medals The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con): My Lords, I thank and 49 mentions in dispatches. It is a small number my noble friend the Minister for providing your Lordships compared to those who died but for those from small, with this opportunity to debate this most important of developing islands in the Caribbean this was an important subjects today. time. In addition, at least two known Jamaican air “Tread softly here! Go reverently and slow! crew flew in the Royal Flying Corps during the First Yea, let your soul go down upon its knees, World War, including the pilot Sergeant William Robinson And with bowed head and heart abased strive hard Clarke from Kingston, Jamaica. To grasp the future gain in this sore loss! For not one foot of this dank sod but drank Lest we forget, I remind noble Lords that 8,000 Its surfeit of the blood of gallant men. soldiers of the British West Indies Regiment stationed Who, for their faith, their hope,—for Life and Liberty, at Taranto in Italy mutinied over unequal pay and Here made the sacrifice,—here gave their lives. conditions in December 1918. As a consequence, these And gave right willingly—for you and me. servicemen were banned from partaking in the 1919 From this vast altar—pile the souls of men victory and peace parades. Furthermore, 1919 also Sped up to God in countless multitudes: saw widespread rioting against black servicemen, sailors On this grim cratered ridge they gave their all. and their families throughout Britain. Of course, the And, giving, won men from the Caribbean who fell during the First The peace of Heaven and Immortality. World War are not forgotten in the communities from Our hearts go out to them in boundless gratitude: which they came. The West Indian Ex-Servicemen and If ours—then God’s: for His vast charity Women’s Association continues to keep those memories All sees, all knows, all comprehends—save bounds. He has repaid their sacrifice:—and we—? burning and, among many other services for God help us if we fail to pay our debt ex-servicemen, holds a yearly ceremony of remembrance In fullest full and all unstintingly!” at Seaford in Sussex, where some of those who have Those moving lines were written by John Oxenham fallen are now buried. Today our nation’s social policies and are on a bronze plaque at Beaumont-Hamel are steeped in values around respect, mutual Newfoundland Memorial in the Somme. I had the great understanding, equality, social cohesion and fairness. privilege of visiting that battlefield, cemetery and memorial Let us together, in marking a period of historical earlier this month. On the first day of the Battle of the global conflict, ensure that we give the relatives and Somme, 1 July 1916, at 0720 hours, 700 Newfoundlanders descendants of fathers, grandfathers and great- from the Royal Newfoundland Regiment went over grandfathers who stood shoulder to shoulder in our the top and were cut down by withering German hour of need the opportunity to commemorate with machine-gun fire. The battle lasted less than 30 minutes. us as one. Only 61 returned. Their memorial is a bronze caribou The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby, on a hill of rocks set with plants native to Newfoundland. mentioned the suffering of the war wounded. Some It is, quite simply, breathtakingly beautiful. may not have heard of her, but a woman called Mary I spent three days visiting Vimy Ridge and the Seacole, despite many prejudices, went out to nurse surrounding cemeteries. I visited the Somme and Ypres. the soldiers of the British service. I have met men who I visited Thiepval Memorial, designed by Sir Edwin have spoken and written about her role in saving the Lutyens. I paid my respects to the graves of soldiers lives of British soldiers. She may have been considered from the South Staffordshire Regiment—from my home an unqualified nurse but, being of African descent, county—and in particular the grave of Sapper Thomas she used her bush medicine—they told me—and kept Brough from Cannock, who was killed by a sniper’s many men alive. Some are now probably on the brink bullet while collecting water for a brew on Christmas of not being alive. My noble friend Lord Soley has morning 1915. He is buried at Railway Dugouts Burial been working with a committee to erect a memorial to Ground, Transport Farm. Sapper Brough was 47 years- Mary Seacole. I trust the Minister would encourage old, so too old to fight. He was only there because he 1291 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1292 wished to be with his sons. He is the great-grandfather First, it is misconceived and misleading to spend a of two friends who accompanied me on the trip. They lot of time trying to identify a villain or villains, to visited their great-grandfather’s grave—with great emotion. play another round of the blame game. That was tried In Warlencourt British Cemetery, littered with the in the Treaty of Versailles at the end of the war, and it graves of unknown soldiers all with the epitaph “known was not a brilliant success. The hard fact is that there to God”, I discovered a headstone to Private A Jowett was a systematic failure of diplomacy by what were in with a wonderful inscription: those days known as the great powers, responsibility “He sleeps with England’s heroes in the watchful care of for which was very widely shared. God”. Secondly, we should recognise that this was a period It was incredibly moving. I pay tribute to the of weak and diffuse leadership in every one of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission, which tends main European powers. There were no Bismarcks or the thousands of cemeteries and memorials to the Salisburys around to check the slide towards war. highest possible standards. It does a fantastic job. On the last night, we went to the Menin Gate in Ypres for Thirdly, the war was an unmitigated disaster for all the 8 pm service of remembrance. We listened to the the European participants, both the victors and the “Last Post” being trumpeted and “Abide with Me” vanquished—the suffering citizens of Europe, who sung by a Welsh male voice choir. With around 3,000 gained little or no benefit from the sacrifices which silent worshippers, we paid our respects to the fallen, they so stoically underwent. The only powers which without whose sacrifice we would not enjoy the freedoms emerged strengthened were two non-European powers, and the privileged lives that we lead today. the United States of America and Japan, neither of which played any role in the onset of war. When I was a teenager, my father often took me to visit the First World War memorials. When my sons Fourthly, it is odd that not a single woman was were teenagers, I took them. My seven year-old grandson involved in the decisions that led to war. Nor was there has just been with his father, doing exactly the same. It a single woman in any of the parliaments of the is so important that we ensure that younger generations protagonists. That shows what a change has taken are encouraged to learn about and appreciate the vast place since then. sacrifice of human life that was the Great War. Both I Fifthly, the act that triggered this war, the assassination and my friends were touched to see the messages left of Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo, was what we would on the memorials by countless school parties from all now call an act of state-sponsored terrorism. Sixthly, a over the United Kingdom. We should applaud their Europe that was governed by a closely interwoven noble efforts. network of cultural and, in the case of the monarchs Finally, I am a Staffordshire man and very proud of themselves, family ties and which was economically it. My grandfather died while serving in the Royal very interdependent—much more interdependent than Horse Guards in 1915. My great-grandfather sourced Europe had ever been since the time of the Roman and trained horses for the cavalry at our former home, empire—was unable to resist the slide into war. That Ingestre, in Staffordshire. He also manufactured Talbot point was made by the right reverend Prelate the cars as ambulances for the military. I am extremely Bishop of London. proud to have in my home county the National Memorial Seventhly, the so-called concert of Europe, the informal Arboretum at Alrewas. It is a wonderful place of network of great powers, which had prevented war at peace and tranquillity. I was delighted to learn recently the time of the two Moroccan crises and which had of moves afoot to create a memorial there to all the localised war in the two Balkan wars which preceded horses killed in the Great War—those magnificent, the Great War, was unravelled and collapsed in 1914 unquestioning, loyal servants of man who died in their under the strain of events. hundreds of thousands and in appalling conditions, from cavalry charges to artillery and poison gas attacks. Eighthly, at least one of the great powers, Germany, It is right that they, too, should be remembered in had war plans which in the event of war with Russia— perpetuity. which was of course the event which occurred—required it to launch a pre-emptive strike against France and, in doing so, to march across two countries, Belgium and 6.51 pm Luxembourg, whose neutrality it had guaranteed. Not Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, in the one of its civilian leaders ever thought to challenge three brilliant doorstop books recently published on those war plans or note that they were a straightforward the run-up to and the early stages of the First World defiance of international law. War: Max Hastings’s Catastrophe, Margaret MacMillan’s, The War That Ended Peace, and Christopher Clark’s, Ninthly, neither the military nor the diplomats—both The Sleepwalkers, and having studied the diplomatic of whom were very professional groups—gave much background to the war as my special subject—here, I good advice to their political masters. Tenthly, all the have common ground with the noble Lord, Lord participants, without exception, seemed genuinely to Thomas; I studied in the Oxford School of Modern believe that they were acting defensively in response to History nearly 60 years ago—I hope that I am reasonably external pressures over which they had no control: well equipped to make a contribution to this important that they had no choice but to act as they did. As debate, which could be of real value if we draw sensible Margaret MacMillan said at the end of her brilliant conclusions from what went so appallingly wrong book, there always are choices. 100 years ago. Here, I offer a few slightly random Britain’s diplomacy seems to me—I do not wish to thoughts mainly drawn from the diplomatic background be unduly censorious—to have been both confused to the conflict. and confusing during the period in the run-up to the 1293 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1294

[LORD HANNAY OF CHISWICK] of Parliament for Poole in 1907 and in 1910, as war. It left everyone guessing, including the members a Liberal, he went up and became the Member of of the Cabinet. The Government in office then were of Parliament for Edinburgh South. At some stage—I course distracted by the potential breaking away of a was never able to decipher exactly when—he became part of the United Kingdom, and they were split the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the Foreign down the middle between those who believed that our Secretary.He then moved on to become the Parliamentary vital national interests were involved in the events on Private Secretary to the Prime Minister. All the same, continental Europe and those who wanted to have while sitting as a Member of Parliament for Edinburgh nothing to do with them. I wonder where I have heard South in 1914 he joined his regiment, the Fife and that before. Forfar Yeomanry, which was detailed to do Royal Are there any lessons for us to be drawn from all Garrison Artillery duty. that? Plenty, I suggest, although not through drawing My grandfather served at the front but there was an precise political parallels. Above all, there are risks in unfortunate accident and he was pretty seriously wounded. periods when power relationships are changing rapidly He retired, came back to this country and was asked and both rising and declining powers feel insecure and by the Prime Minister whether he would step down as are tempted into errors of judgment. That, I fear, is PPS—Lloyd George had succeeded Mr Asquith. My what we have around us now. That is when you most grandfather then rejoined his regiment but found that need something stronger than loose networks, when he was not fit. They said, “We have a job for you. Would you need the multilateral alliances and disciplines you please go off to Washington to act as one of the which we have built up since the Second World War in military attachés at the embassy there?”. My grandfather the United Nations, in NATO, in the European Union went there in January 1918 but in October 1918 he and in other international organisations. That is when became one of 20 million—it may have been 25 million you cannot afford to turn your back on any of them. or 30 million—victims of what we call Spanish flu. He I hope that when Europe’s leaders visit Ypres tomorrow died in Washington together with two other members evening, they will look at the inscription on the Menin of the British military mission; all three are buried in Gate, which reads: Arlington National Cemetery. I understand that there “Under this arch lie the bodies of 55,000 servicemen whose are 11 Britons buried there from the First World War, remains could not be identified”. so I am immensely grateful to them. I hope that they will reflect on how far we have The military tradition has certainly gone on. My travelled together in the past 70 years and how much grandfather seems to have made quite an impression, more now unites us than divides us. not necessarily as a military man but much more as a politician. Some years ago the noble Earl, Lord Stockton, Lord Davies of Stamford (Lab): My Lords, I agree— was speaking to me and heard that there was a Peer by the name of Charlie Lyell. He said, “I remember Lord Lyell (Con): My Lords, I hope that I have not Charlie Lyell” and for two minutes we had the most changed my name to Davies of Stamford, because my incredible performance from the late noble Earl. He name appears next on the list. Is that right? suddenly said, “He got married”, and I said, “No, that was my grandfather”—who had obviously made a big impression upon the noble Earl, Lord Stockton. At Noble Lords: Yes. the same time, however, he went off and fought in the First World War. He lost his life and is remembered; I Lord Lyell: If it is, I am delighted, but what is the have studied a bit of what he did. order? Many of us have seen, in my lifetime, the war movies and activities of the Eastern Front in the Second Lord Davies of Stamford: I apologise but I was World War. When you think of what the conditions advised that the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, had withdrawn were in the First World War, and of all those men and his name. I was wrongly informed and I apologise to women in Flanders and France—it was entirely the him and to the House. men who fought—in such conditions, one has some appreciation of what they suffered. The words of my 7pm noble friend Lord Trefgarne were particularly apposite Lord Lyell: My Lords, perhaps I may first because of his recollections of how his father suffered. apologise; I asked permission from the Chief Whip, I have been drilled during all my life in your Lordships’ having warned her that I had not one but two brief House to show some respect and every morning when engagements during the debate today. However, I was I come in, I have a set drill. I turn into the Prince’s given an indication from her that it would be in order Chamber and go down to the far end of the Royal to speak and that I would not be in danger of being Gallery. In the bookcase at the end, there are three discourteous to the House. books with the Peers and sons of Peers who were killed, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, for the most or died, in the two world wars. The pages are turned marvellous, moving and excellent speech. One reason over every day and what I have learnt from those two I am speaking today is that my noble friend, who I books with all the records of the Peers and sons thank profoundly for everything that he has done and of Peers who perished in, or died after, the First World is doing to celebrate the centenary of the outbreak of War, has been moving and an intense part of my the First World War, referred to my grandfather. My education. It is not necessarily Members of your grandfather was born in 1875. He became a Member Lordships’ House or people of British nationality. 1295 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1296

As your Lordships may find one day, there is an Grey obviously felt extremely sensitive about potential Italian who died on the Isonzo and who was the son of criticism on that score because in his memoirs, Twenty-Five the Countess of Newburgh. I am not aware of quite Years, published about 10 years later, he said that he how that title, which is clearly Scottish but came could not have been more definite with the Germans through the female line, came to a lady who was because he did not have a Cabinet decision to go on. Italian—but her son fought and died on the Isonzo. There is no evidence that he asked for such a decision Yet we remember him, as with all the others, in that or that Asquith thought that one was necessary. If we book every day. It certainly makes me realise, as I accept Grey’s excuse, the whole British Government believe it does many of your Lordships, how much bear a major responsibility for those dire events. gratitude we owe to those Members of your Lordships’ Nevertheless, when the war broke out, there is no House and their sons. doubt that for four and a half years the most remarkable If your Lordships go down to Westminster Hall, the qualities of indescribable human courage were shown sons of Members of Parliament fill six or seven panels by fighting men on all sides, obeying orders that were down there. There is one more aspect of Westminster often quite murderously incompetent. I think that all Hall: my grandfather is commemorated there. He is of us have in our mind’s eye, and we should keep it apparently among three; I do not know why. There is there, the picture that has been referred to so many another Lieutenant Thomas Kettle of the Royal Dublin times today of 1 July 1916, the first day of the Somme: Fusiliers, who was killed at the Battle of the Somme. hundreds of thousands of young men being ordered, He was certainly an Irish nationalist Member of if you please, to advance at no more than two miles an Parliament but he fought and was killed at that battle. hour hundreds of yards towards the German machine The pride that he has given to Members of the Irish guns. They had been told that the wire had been cut Parliament when they come here is deeply moving. and destroyed by artillery, but of course it had not. I was asked if I would say one or two words on They had been told that the Germans had been killed behalf of my grandfather. I apologise if I have taken in their front-line trenches, but of course they had not up the time of the House or been out or order but I am and were safe in their dugouts. Still the young men immensely grateful for what my noble friend has done kept on. They did not make much progress, which is and is doing, and for giving us the opportunity to not very surprising. After losing several thousand men remember the dreadful events of 1914 to 1918 and 1919. a day, Haig would invariably write in his diary, to his wife, to the King or perhaps to more than one of the 7.07 pm above that the losses had not been too great really, all things considered, and he was making progress. Of Lord Davies of Stamford: My Lords, I entirely agree course he was not. with the brilliant analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and although I have never discussed this Unfortunately, during that war we were very badly matter with him the House will find that I have come supplied with good-quality leadership from either the to very similar conclusions. military or the politicians of the day. Almost all the leading generals suffered from three serious failings. Unlike the Second World War or the mass murders One was that they had been brought up on the doctrine of Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung and Pol Pot, the First of uncompromising offensive—l’offensive à l’outrance. World War was not the result of deliberate human evil If they had been to America and studied the American but of human folly. Nobody wanted a war in 1914. Civil War—if they had been to Vicksburg and Although everybody, including ourselves, had contingency Gettysburg—they might have changed their minds, plans, nobody planned to have that war or expected it. but their memories were of the Franco-Prussian War It was not until 26 July, when the Austrian ultimatum or, in our case, of colonial wars. was sent to Serbia, that anybody realised quite how great a risk there was of having a global war. I totally The second failing was that they were all extraordinarily agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, that it is arrogant. They were very slow to learn lessons from therefore absurd to look around for some national experience and very unwilling to accept the possible guilt and say, “This was the guilty nation”. benefits of new technology. The third failing was that, Nevertheless, a number of individuals need to stand presumably as a result of those first two qualities, they before the bar of history; Berchtold, the Austrian all gave disastrously overoptimistic advice to their Foreign Minister, who drew up that ultimatum in such political bosses. Almost all the commanders and generals a way that it was most unlikely that the Serbs would fall into those categories: in our case, French and accept it; Sazonov, the Russian Foreign Minister, who Haig; in the French case, Joffre and Nivelle; in the bullied Nicholas II into signing the order for general German case, von Moltke, Falkenhayn and of course mobilisation; and Bethmann-Hollweg, the German Ludendorff; in the Russian case, Sukhomlinov, Grand Chancellor, who succeeded in suppressing the response Duke Nikolai Nikolaevich, Rennenkampf and the ill of Wilhelm II to the Serbian response to the ultimatum. fated Samsonov; in the Austrian case, Conrad; and in Wilhelm II had said he thought that the Serbian response the Italian case, Cardona—I believe that those strictures had solved the problem and resolved the crisis but apply entirely fairly to all of them. Bethmann-Hollweg made sure that that minute went There were some exceptions. When Pétain took no further. It certainly was not transmitted to the over in 1917, he understood that it was a defenders’ Austrians. war and drew the obvious, if rather unheroic, conclusion There is also our own Foreign Secretary, Sir Edward that, “Il faut attendre les Américains et les chars”. Grey, who never told the Germans that we would go Another accolade must go to Brusilov, who was the to war over Belgium. That was a fatal error. Indeed, only general who planned and carried out a successful 1297 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1298

[LORD DAVIES OF STAMFORD] now, and what a terrible irony it would be if, as we offensive on the Entente side in the whole of the war commemorate the hundredth anniversary of the outbreak before the last few months after the exhaustion of of that terrible war, we either pull out of the EU or do Germany in 1918; they were few and far between. our best to weaken it ourselves. Plumer was almost certainly the best of the British generals but that is not saying very much. 7.16 pm The political leaders were also very poor. One problem was that they would not stand up to their generals. The Earl of Clancarty (CB): My Lords, I am grateful Ludendorff more or less became the leader of Germany to the Minister for laying out the plans for marking after 1916, and after he got rid of Chancellor Bethmann- the centenary of the 1914-18 war, including culture Hollweg in 1917 no one would stand up to him at all. and the arts. The Kaiser had a good opportunity to do so after the One central question that needs to be asked is: what Reichstag peace resolution in July 1917 but he never precisely is it that we are commemorating? What is the did, so there were major political failings there. The nature and purpose of this commemoration? Is it a whole British and French political establishment was history project? Is it a military commemoration? Is it completely enchanted and captivated by Nivelle, which cultural, and what do we mean by that? In trying to shows pretty bad judgment. Lloyd George despised answer that question, I want to lay some emphasis on the terrible duo of Haig and Robertson just as much the artists and writers of the time of other countries. as many of us do today in retrospect, but he never What is it that we want to achieve? Are certain values steeled himself to move against them. being imposed on this commemoration—for instance, Unable to win the war, the politicians were unable in schools? In that respect, this debate touches on the to make a peace. There must have been 30 wars one that will be held tomorrow on British values in the between the treaty of Westphalia in 1648, which established name of the noble Lord, Lord Storey. the sort of international system that lasted until 1914, I want to voice some concerns here. I accept that and 1914 itself—certainly if you include Turkey, which commemoration does not have to be celebration, even you must. Almost all of them were settled by some though Chambers gives it as a possible synonym, but there form of negotiation, but no such negotiation took are other traps that can colour these commemorations place before the final exhaustion of the central powers and I worry that they are already doing so. The first is in 1918 and after the loss of those 10 million or more nostalgia, and in a way this is something that many of men in combat. Then we had a peace that itself did us can easily fall into. It is nostalgia not necessarily for not last and, as we all know, sowed the seeds of a another era of soldiering, which some may have—in second and even more global conflict only 20 years spite of the horror of the war itself, which nostalgia later. also somehow pushes to one side—but for the era that So what do we do about that situation? We have a immediately preceded the First World War and which responsibility to the fallen, to those now living and to the war destroyed, the subject of many TV costume those who are to come. We have a responsibility precisely dramas. The feeling has been particularly heightened to be wise in hindsight, to draw the right conclusions this week because yesterday, as the noble Lords, Lord and ensure that it does not happen again. Here I Faulkner and Lord Shipley, mentioned, was the centenary totally agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay: there of the famous train ride that Edward Thomas took was something fundamentally wrong with the international from Paddington to Malvern to visit his friend, the system in 1914. There was also too much nationalism, American poet Robert Frost, inspiring the poem jingoism and of course militarism. In our case, the “Adlestrop”—an event that took place four days before emotion was directed mainly at the Navy but that did the shooting in Sarajevo. As it happens, Edward Thomas not make much difference. is our local Hampshire hero; he was a brilliant poet, and I pass the house where he wrote that poem and There was also something obviously wrong with the many others every day when I do the school drop-off. whole system of states, which was not resilient. Things went even more wrong with the international system It is very easy to get thrown back into that era but it set up in 1919, which did not last 20 years before we is important to point out that the nostalgia for this had another war. So we have to look at that. It would period is not a purely British phenomenon. Stefan be nice to say, “What we need is simply better generals Zweig, the Austrian writer, in his biography, The World and politicians”. However, the one thing that you of Yesterday, called that period, which he lived through cannot do, because it is illogical, is determine the in the last years of the Austro-Hungarian empire, the contingent elements in life; all you can determine is golden age of security. However, he also admitted that the structural elements. We need to look at the structures that sense of security must have been an illusion. The and at the international system. Some will say that First World War did not start in Sarajevo. I am not an NATO provides us with the protections that we need historian, but I know that historians say that if you and makes impossible another war in Europe. Maybe, want properly to understand the origins of the First but we have had alliances since the beginning of time World War, you need to go far back into the 19th century and they have not stopped wars. One needs to go and look closely at not just British history but European further than that; one needs a more structured system history. I hope that is something that schools will do. in which there is actual sharing of sovereignty and Secondly, respect and remembrance alone can so pooling of decision-making—in other words, the easily turn into justification, and I sense this when I European Union. What a tragedy that we did not have see schoolchildren interviewed on camera across the the EU before 1914, and indeed after the disaster of channel against the backdrop of World War I cemeteries the First World War and before the second. We have it expressing similar platitudes about “the sacrifices of 1299 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1300 our heroes” and “plucky little Belgium”. This is not, referred—working at its best, meaning not provincial, of course, the fault of the children, but it has a lot to not introverted but a demonstration of the Union’s do with the current mood. Jonathan Jones writing in success in the ways that have mattered, which are the Guardian in May on German art of the time, which cultural. In the 1980s, particularly before the wall I will come to, said: came down, the watchword for young artists was “It’s as if the clock is being turned back and the propaganda cultural exchange. Today, from the individual’s point of the war believed all over again”. of view, it appears much easier to explore other cultures. I agree with him. I feel concern about the context of We have many more contemporary artists visiting the remembrance and the strong military context of the UK from countries across the world, but collaboration schoolchildren’s visits. I feel concern that this is only between countries at a formal level in terms of arts or largely about Britain. The project of sending and cultural exchange is something that still needs to schoolchildren to battle sites should have nothing to be valued and supported in an era when the accent in do with patriotism, a misguidedly imposed value. If it the UK is on the one-way and perhaps more insular is to be done, it should have everything to do with the tool of soft power. objective study of history, the study of one event that The way we mark this centenary will have an influence affected this country deeply, as it did others in Europe on the way we react to future conflict when the spotlight and the rest of the world, including Africa and the will be on other parts of the world. I asked the Middle East. question: what is this commemoration ultimately for? I want to quote some words that were written about I answer with the title of a book published in 2000 by Goethe, which show that there were other views, even the French sociologist Alain Touraine, Can We Live at the time: Together? It is in my view the best question, but is “Among our writers and men of letters there are ... few if any something that necessitates a reaching out rather than whose present utterances ... will be counted among their best a reinforcement of our own country’s inherent insularity, work. Nor is there any serious writer who at heart prefers Koerner’s and an understanding of the response of the arts of patriotic songs to the poems of Goethe ... other countries to an event such as the First World Exactly, cry the super-patriots, we have always been suspicious War must be an effective part of this. of Goethe, he was never a patriot, he contaminated the German mind with the benign internationalism which has plagued us so long and appreciably weakened our German consciousness. 7.25 pm That is the crux of the problem”. Lord King of Bridgwater (Con): My Lords, I The writer continues that Goethe’s, congratulate the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, on the “devotion to humanity meant more to him than his devotion to first speech I have heard that seemed correctly to the German people, which he knew and loved better than anyone address what was meant to be the subject of the else. He was a citizen and patriot in the international world of thought, of inner freedom, of intellectual conscience”. debate, which is the programme to commemorate the centenary of the First World War. That is the subject These words were written in September 1914 by Herman to which I wish to address my remarks. I congratulate Hesse, in a piece entitled O Friends, Not These Tones— the Minister on his very clear introduction setting out echoing Schiller’s “Ode to Joy”—who with fellow this programme. It is a tribute to him that there have writers Stefan Zweig and Romain Rolland, two of been so few criticisms of the programme. Other noble whom were future Nobel prize winners, formed a Lords have quite understandably come up with some loose triumvirate of pacifists who argued against the very interesting recollections or historical analyses but war from the very beginning and throughout their have not commented much on the programme that is lives for a cosmopolitan culture that crossed national proposed. I declare that I have a slight interest in that boundaries. as a member of the advisory committee that the Prime Something of that internationalist spirit is in an Minister has appointed under the leadership of the important exhibition I went to last month in Wuppertal, Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Support, in Germany: a collaboration between Wuppertal’s Von ably supported by Dr Andrew Murrison. Dr Murrison der Heydt-Museum and the Musée des Beaux-Arts in deserves considerable tribute. He has been through Reims, looking at the war through the eyes of both changes of Secretary of State and has kept the continuity French and German artists and writers with film there. I see the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, a fellow footage from both countries and much more. It is an member of that committee, acknowledging that. important exhibition because there was absolute parity I hope we have got the tone right in the approach between the two contributions. It is called “Human we are taking, but one draws from it the lessons that I Slaughterhouse”, which gets to the nub of what happened, hope people in our country, particularly the young, and deals directly with the destruction and trauma of will understand. One of the weaknesses of the First this conflict at it affected the two sides. As Otto Dix World War is that we had a Second World War, and records in his 1915-16 diary: people think that it is called the “First World War” “Lice, rats, barbed wire, fleas, grenades, bombs, caves, corpses, because of the Second World War. Of course, it was blood, schnapps, mice, cats, gases, cannons, filth, bullets, machine-guns, the first world war. We had had the Napoleonic Wars, fire, steel, that’s what war is! Nothing but the devil’s work!”. the Crimea, the Franco-Prussian War and the Boer This exhibition also contains Dix’s 1924 graphic series War, but this was a war of a dimension quite unlike of etchings “The War”, a work far removed from the anything that the world had previously seen. One of sense of nostalgia to which I have referred. the most graphic illustrations of that was the figure The exhibition is also, in a sense, the European that my noble friend gave, which has been echoed by Union—to which the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, many noble Lords in their tributes, about the 1301 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1302

[LORD KING OF BRIDGWATER] in the trenches and sent to Ireland to act as a resettlement Commonwealth War Graves Commission and its work. officer for returning, injured Irish guardsmen and I understand that there are 23,000 cemeteries around others. He was captured by Sinn Fein in the south of the world for British or Commonwealth war dead. Ireland and found himself in a difficult situation when, That brought it home very clearly. suddenly, a bunch of German soldiers turned up The commemoration has already started in various under a German officer. That German officer looked ways, and there has been most interesting analysis. pretty vicious, but then walked up to my grandfather- The war may puzzle the young and the not so young. I in-law and said, “You don’t recognise me, do you? I do not know how many noble Lords have been to the used to be a waiter at the Charing Cross Hotel. I was a National Portrait Gallery, but there is one picture that German spy and was sent there from 1900 to 1914. has stuck in my mind. It is of George V and Tsar Then I went back and joined the German army, and Nicholas at the wedding of the Kaiser’s daughter. Just now they’ve sent me over here in an intelligence role”. as a little joke, they had swapped uniforms. The Tsar There was a certain amount of preparation by somebody was an honorary colonel or general in the British at that time. The Germans were obviously making sure Army—I think he was in a cavalry uniform—and that they could protect themselves as best they could. George V was wearing Russian uniform. The cousins I have a few comments on how we are going. It is are standing together. It is not surprising that people absolutely right that we should recognise the role of found it difficult to believe that they would get to the Commonwealth; I have great respect for the noble fighting each other viciously. Baroness, Lady Flather, and Indians and others who There are so many stories. My noble friend Lord wish to be represented. For that reason we are Lyell told of his family’s many heroic involvements. I accommodating them by having this first service in thought of my father. He was 18 in 1919. He was in Glasgow at the Commonwealth Games. My worry is embarkation camp at Folkestone when the armistice that it is the day after the Commonwealth Games. was signed, but for the previous four years every How many Commonwealth leaders are actually going Sunday night in the college chapel, the headmaster to stay beyond the games? It is important if that had stood up and read out the names of the boys who service is in Glasgow—when others might have thought had left the year before and had been killed in the war. Westminster Abbey would be the obvious location for Many of those young men knew that they were going it—that a real effort is made to ensure that a good to be 19 and 20 and that if they succeeded in getting a number of Commonwealth leaders are there. The vigil commission as a young subaltern, their chances of in Westminster Abbey with the turning out of the reaching 20 or 21 were pretty minute. Psychologically, lights, which is to be replicated in churches around the that must have had a huge impact. country, must therefore have full support. I do not want to enter into the causes of or There are lessons to be learnt about the courage of responsibility for the war which noble Lords have talked our young men of that time and the appalling dangers about. Undoubtedly there was a militaristic background. they faced. It has been pointed out that there was no There was no question that Germany had built a very conscription until 1916, and I do not think any tribute substantial military capability, and when you have to all those who went and served before that time, in that, there are always a few generals who are keen to full knowledge of the horror that they faced, could be see if they can try it out. We had a pretty good Navy too great. My noble friend Lady Williams said that we but we did not have much of an army. Our Army was have learnt the lessons of history in 70 years of working the Indian Army, which was much bigger; tributes together and that there is no risk of any war again. I have been paid to the Commonwealth. I went to the look at the situation in Ukraine, which we have discussed anniversary of the Battle of La Bassée, which took before, and the risk of Russia perhaps seeking to place in 1914, in November, in the rain. I saw where expand its activities. We can never be complacent. We the Indian soldiers had come by ship to Marseille and must always be alert. We must always use every possible by train into the trenches, still wearing tropical uniforms form of diplomatic relationship, and must always be in northern France in November. The trenches were aware of how great the price might be if we were to get half-filled with rain; if the soldiers were wounded and involved in conflict. fell, they drowned. We owe them a debt: we would not have survived without the support of the Commonwealth, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton: I remind the noble particularly the Indian Army. Lord, and my noble friend Lady Flather, that the word in 1914 was not “Commonwealth” but “Empire”.

Baroness Flather: We have used this term Lord King of Bridgwater: Yes, but we are having the “Commonwealth” an awful lot. In those days there Commonwealth Games. I am referring to what is was no Commonwealth. With all due respect to noble happening now, and the fact that we are accommodating Lords, I think that they are somehow subsuming India the Commonwealth. in this new thing called the Commonwealth. India should be remembered. 7.34 pm Viscount Colville of Culross (CB): My Lords, I Lord King of Bridgwater: I accept the noble Baroness’s thank the noble Lord for introducing this important point. debate. I, too, have been very moved by the extraordinary The background to this includes a little story which accounts that I have heard of the First World War. I may interest the noble Lord, Lord Rogan. I was reading declare an interest. I make history programmes for the the memoir of my grandfather-in-law, who was wounded BBC. 1303 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1304

In three days’ time, on 28 June, the world will Now, in the coming four years, there will be a remember the 100th anniversary of the shot which wonderful opportunity for us to look deeper at what killed the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, Franz really happened. Of course, we have this commemoration, Ferdinand, in Sarajevo. On Saturday, we will be able which the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner, and many other to feel something of the tension, with well known noble Lords have talked about and which is the point BBC reporters such as Frank Gardner and Bridget of this debate. However, the BBC, the Imperial War Kendall reconstructing news reporting and analysis of Museum, local museums and local authorities have set what the assassination would have meant in 1914. up multiple projects about the Great War all over the Over the next four years, the world witnessed a loss of country. Up until 2018, Channel 4 and every BBC life and destruction so dreadful that it has coloured radio and television network and many of the foreign our view of war for a century, as other noble Lords language services are putting out hundreds of hours have said, and it will continue to loom over us for of drama, documentary and debate about the war. generations to come. Now, as we commemorate the The broadcasts and research will be kept online, as a 100th anniversary of the start of World War I, its digital archive. Jeremy Paxman’s series “Britain’s Great time for us to reach a true understanding both of War” aimed to set out what happened. The nuances of what happened and of what motivated the people both sides of the war’s legacy were discussed, first by who took part, and the politicians and the generals Professor Niall Ferguson questioning our involvement who led them. in the war, and then Sir Max Hastings explaining why we fought the war. Now, thanks to the Imperial War We in 21st century Britain are confronted by seemingly Museum, 700 interviews with people who served on endless military and political crises, many of which the home front, the Western Front and even the Russian have their roots in the First World War. There are front, originally filmed in 1960 but only short clips of demands for our forces to be involved in Ukraine, which were released, will now be put on the internet in Syria and Iraq as violence engulfs those countries. Our full, so that we will be able to listen to them and view about whether to participate is, of course, coloured understand their experiences for ourselves. by the experiences of our Armed Forces in the past decade and the subsequent outcomes. However, I think There will be a major drive to connect a younger that our national psyche is also deeply scarred by the generation, for whom this is obviously a distant and great horror of the First World War and the loss of so unknown war, with the great event. On 4 August, the many lives. anniversary of Britain’s declaration of war, there will be interviews on BBC Radio 1 with young men and The legacy of the world war has been polarised women who are veterans of recent wars to explain the between a view of a horrific waste of life, one of “lions complexities of their experiences, both during military led by donkeys”, and the pursuit of a glorious war to action and in the aftermath. Well known figures, such protect the principles of democracy and world order as the Bosnian pop star Rita Ora, will tell of their as set out by the US President Woodrow Wilson to experiences of being in a war zone. The message will Congress in 1918. Only by understanding the history be that war is not black or white but has many shades will we realise how much more nuanced were the in between. events of 1914 to 1918 and the legacy of those years, My noble friend Lady Flather will be pleased to and, as a result, how much more nuanced must be our hear that thousands of soldiers from India and the response to demands on our nation to become involved Empire will be remembered. Radio 4 is launching a in future military action. series called “Tommies”, which will use the diaries and At the outbreak of war, hundreds of thousands of accounts of the lives of the Asian signal operators to men did indeed voluntarily enlist as a matter of principle. reconstruct their experiences as they moved not only At the end of the dreadful four years, there was a around the Western Front but throughout many theatres terrible feeling of sadness across this nation. However, of war, in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, setting it was not really until the 10th anniversary that significant up and maintaining communications. There is a history doubts about the justice of the war began to rear their of the involvement of the troops from across the heads following the death of Field Marshal Lord Haig British Empire which is in production at the moment. and the publication of his letters showing the generals Their sacrifice must be understood and not forgotten. to be manipulative and political, a view compounded By the end of the four years, the hope is that everybody by the publication of Lloyd George’s memoirs. However, in the country will have a renewed and nuanced the popular disgust at the waste of the war was further understanding of the legacy of World War I and how ignited by the release of the film “All Quiet on the it affects our view of the maintenance of world order. Western Front”, the author of the novel on which it However, I suggest to the Minister that we should be was based having described a generation who, even more ambitious in the use of this centenary. It could be used to discover new aspects of the war. We “even though they may have escaped shells, were destroyed by the need to find out about the relationships between war”. nationalism and globalisation and the role of religion After that, the works of Robert Graves and the war in the belligerent countries involved in the war. Never poets were republished and bought in great numbers have these things been more important with the great as the nation digested the implications of these debates facing our country in the 21st century. testimonials, and determined that such horror should The Government have talked of £100 million pounds never be repeated. The view that the war had been a being made available for the commemorations, most terrible waste—“lions led by donkeys”—had taken of which, rightly, is aimed at increased understanding, hold. especially among the younger generation. However, 1305 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1306

[VISCOUNT COLVILLE OF CULROSS] One thing that we can learn from that part of our there is nothing available for new discovery or research. history, and it is endorsed by many others, is that two The Arts & Humanities Research Council has given things are necessary to prevent an aggressor delivering six grants to universities to help understanding of the a threat. The first is to have sufficient power to make it war in local schools, which of course is quite right, but apparent that if it was used it would make the none of that money has gone towards new historical implementation of that threat unacceptable to the research. There is an extraordinary project being put aggressor. The second and equally important thing is together at the University of Oxford and other universities that it must be clearly seen that our country must be across the world to establish an ambitious four-year ready and willing to use that power. The way to win programme of research into the global implications of peace is to be ready for war; the way to keep peace is to the war and the effect of religion. British research be ready to fight. I hope that that message will come students and post-doctoral fellows will work with through and that, when the sun goes down and we colleagues from France, Australia and Germany to remember them again, that is also what they will wish carry out new historical, international research. There to remember. It is a price that we must never again be will be workshops and papers from across the world, called on to pay. in what could be a “cenotaph of war history”. The French, German and Australian Governments are 7.46 pm putting money into this programme, but at the moment nothing has come from our Government. It is woefully Lord Spicer (Con): My Lords, I had not intended to underfunded on our front. intervene in this debate, but I am prompted to do so very briefly by the two speeches of the noble Lords, In all this talk of understanding, should we not do Lord Hannay and Lord Davies. They were brilliant everything we can support a project like this, which speeches in many ways and I have tremendous respect will genuinely shine new light on to the First World for the debating power of the noble Lord, Lord Davies, War? As the Professor of War at Oxford, Sir Hew and, indeed, for that of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. Strachan, one of the leading figures behind the project However, I profoundly disagreed with their conclusion. and the commemoration plans, said: Broadly, as I understand it, it was that if we had had “We need to be surprised by what the centenary of the First World War throws up, not to dismiss the uncomfortable and the European Union at the time of the two great wars, unfamiliar. We must not be so caught by the rhetoric set by the we would not have had any wars at all. I think that war’s anniversary that we shut out the messages contained in the that is an accurate representation. They were saying rhetoric of a hundred years ago, and so exclude what for us may that process of centralisation and consolidation would be new insights and fresh findings. If we are open to the evidence have saved us from having these wars. Arguably, exactly in all its diversity and complexity we shall bring altered perspectives the opposite is the case. to the phenomenon that we call war, that are, sadly, likely to stand us in good stead as we travel through another century”. Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I did not say anything of 7.43 pm the sort and I do not happen to think that either. What Lord Elton (Con): My Lords, so many memories, so I said was that we now have the European Union and many dead. The question of my noble friend Lady that we should not turn our backs on it; I did not say Trumpington, however improperly asked, deserves an that if we had had it before the First World War answer. Mesopotamia is an area watered by the Tigris everything would have been hunky-dory. and Euphrates rivers. It was the scene of an expedition headed for Baghdad, largely supplied by the Government Lord Spicer: I exonerate the noble Lord. I think of India under Westminster, with Indian troops but that it is fair to say that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, some British regiments, including the 4th Battalion of did argue that point. Arguably, it is the exact opposite. the Hampshire Regiment, in which my father served. The thing that caused the wars was the centralisation Its central focus, from my point of view, was the siege and determination of one nation—the Germans—and and fall of Kut, in which trench warfare had all the the individual sovereign states were those that created horrors of the Western Front, plus regular flooding by the peace, winning the war, and there was a lasting the Tigris, plus starvation. The garrison was eventually peace thereafter. So it was the exact opposite of what starved into surrender, and horrible scenes followed the noble Lord, Lord Davies, was saying. One has only for the other ranks, but we will not go into that now. to look at the American Civil War to see the effect of The study of trench warfare and the warfare in that the process of forced centralisation and so on in terms war is something that I find actively revolting, but it of creating wars. I wanted to set the record straight on has not made me a pacifist. that, because that was certainly the impression that I I thank my noble friend the Minister for the very got from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay—it was pretty great service that he and his colleagues are doing for well irrelevant to raise the question of the European this country.It is very important that the commemorations Union in the context today, if he did not believe that it are used for the right purpose. Like the noble Earl, would have had some effect on history. I think that it Lord Clancarty, I fear that there is a danger that they would have been the opposite effect in the wrong will be used improperly to glorify the heroic sacrifice hands, and I just want to put that straight. of our ancestors. It was glorious, but it was also a terrible disaster. As I said, it has not made me a 7.48 pm pacifist. The currency of war is death. War has changed its nature and is no longer a respecter of uniforms; the Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, I whole population of the country is involved. So much thank all the speakers who have contributed to this the more do we need to try to preserve life. debate this afternoon and evening. It has been a 1307 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1308 fascinating mixture of history, memoir, anecdote, expertise Empire. The centenary anniversaries this year and and analysis, and one of the best debates in which I over the next four years provide us with an important have participated since I have been in your Lordships’ moment to pay tribute to their service and sacrifice. House—and I am sure that I was not alone in feeling a The commemorations will probably begin this weekend prickle of tears behind my eyes when we listened to because this Saturday, 28 June, people all over Britain one or two of the stories, which brought the reality will be marking Armed Forces Day, showing support of what we are talking about very much into the for our brave service men and women and remembering Chamber. the contribution of veterans in past conflicts. As we On that point, the Library Note we received, which have heard, by coincidence, this year that date is the was very full and detailed, mentions that there are a 100th anniversary of the shooting of Archduke Franz number of organisations within Parliament dealing Ferdinand—the day when the assassination of one with World War I—the Great War, as we should call man by a Serbian nationalist plunged the world into it—such as a Member advisory group, and House conflict. As we get to 4 August, the actual anniversary activities planned for the period August 2014 to November of our declaration of war—which, it is important to 2018, including, as I understand it, short videos that note, was made by the British Empire, not just by might be going up on YouTube. How dramatic is that Britain—there will be events across the country, as we and how modern are we becoming in this House? If have heard, and I am sure they will be very evocative. that is the case, would it not be sensible to pick one or As we approach the centenary commemorations of two of the people who have spoken today, if they are the Great War, it is important that we remember the willing, to record for a wider audience—as the noble war itself for more than just the industrialisation of Lord, Lord Selsdon, suggested—the points that have death that it brought with it. As several noble Lords been made here, which have been so powerful and will have said, the war had a profound effect on modern not come across so well in print? If that happens, the Britain, and it is important that we seek to understand, noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, will be able to provide his reflect on and learn from the wider social changes that props and wave them around to his heart’s content, occurred over this tumultuous period in our history. and the noble Lord, Lord Laming, will be able to As my noble friend Lady Howells, the noble Baroness, bring his medals out of his pocket and show us what Lady Flather, and others have drawn our attention to, they were about. It seems to me that we have more to the British—and Empire—Army that fought the First come, perhaps from our own resources. This has been World War a century ago had more in common a very effective debate in terms of what this House can demographically with the Britain of 2014 than the do, bringing together the knowledge and experience Britain of 1914. The contribution of the Indian that we have. Indeed, there are some who have not subcontinent and the West Indies, as well as the other spoken whom we would also like to hear from, such as parts of the Empire, has not been sufficiently well my noble friend Lord Morgan, who has written extensively recognised and I hope that this can now be rectified. on this period. This is important because it underscores some of the As many noble Lords have done, I thank the Minister most important reasons why we have a multi-ethnic for introducing the debate and getting it on the Order Britain in 2014. As a narrative, it does more than just Paper and for outlining so clearly the various programmes explain the facts of our imperial past; it speaks to a that will be rolled out over the next four years. He very early contribution by many ethnic groups to our focused on education, youth and remembrance, which country and is an example of a powerful shared history is a good triumvirate of ideas. I do not think it moves that can help us understand why modern Britain functions back into nostalgia and other concerns that have been as well as it does. mentioned. As far as I have seen from the programmes The Empire soldiers made several decisive contributions published by the DCMS and the BBC—we heard a bit in a war which could have been won or lost by either about them from the noble Viscount—and the City of side in 1918. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord King, London, which today circulated a very full programme mentioned that many academic historians argue about of activities across the City, these will be a very great whether or not the war on the Western Front might and useful resource in years to come. However, as ultimately have been lost without the contribution of many noble Lords have said, it is really important to the Indian Army. Those encounters had an impact on get the tone and content correctly nuanced—to use the the Empire as well. The war transformed national word of the debate. As the noble and learned Lord, identities in the dominions in ways that resonate powerfully Lord Scott, suggested—correctly, I think—we must even today. It also began to shape emerging arguments ensure that we commemorate the losses and the sacrifices among independence movements in the colonies, although but not the war itself. it took a second world war within a generation to play Of course, there is no doubt that the First World the decisive role in dissolving the British Empire and War changed Britain for ever. In many ways, it marked transmuting it into a Commonwealth of Nations. the true beginning of the 20th century and set events I was very struck by the contributions of the noble in motion that would shape people’s lives for generations Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Rogan, and the noble to come, as we have heard. It was a conflict that Viscount, Lord Bridgeman. It was very helpful to get a touched every family, affected every community and sense of engagement from those who are much closer fundamentally altered our country’s place in the world. to Ireland than many of us and an understanding of It is extraordinary to think that it took the lives of some of the ways in which the Irish contribution was 16 million soldiers and civilians across the globe, made. The record now shows that there was a significant including 900,000 servicemen from Britain and the contribution and a sacrifice willingly made. We ought 1309 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1310

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] Lady Crawley, have expressed direct gratitude to the to think harder about that because it is not something Government and the Minister for what they are doing that is much talked about. I am glad that they made in this commemoration, partly because of the emotional their contributions and allowed us to do so. I spent intensity of so many of the contributions—rightly so some time in Ireland and I am conscious of the in view of the extraordinary losses that we have been contribution to what I think is a change of mood that talking about—but mainly because the Government, was made by the recent visit by Her Majesty the who have been in listening mode, have got the tone Queen to the Republic, which made a huge impact and and content of this commemoration correctly nuanced, is still being talked about today. and I am delighted to be able to congratulate them on We should also not forget the artistic and cultural that. impact that the war had in Ireland. Those of us who have been lucky enough to see “The Silver Tassie”, 7.59 pm Sean O’Casey’s interesting and prescient play, recently put on by the Royal National Theatre, will recognise Lord Gardiner of Kimble: My Lords, this has been the same currents of thought that we have heard in an extremely moving debate and it is the greatest this debate from those who have quoted Sassoon, privilege to respond to it. The personal recollections Owen and the other English and Welsh poets who of my noble friends Lord Jenkin of Roding, Lord contributed so much to our understanding of what it Trefgarne and Lady Seccombe of their fathers, the was like to be in the First World War. noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, of his mother and my noble friend Lord Lyell and the noble There were 16,000 towns and villages across Great Lord, Lord Laming, of their grandfathers, have been Britain in 1914, but only 40 of them across Scotland, most affecting. The noble Lord, Lord Laming, spoke England, Wales and Ireland would reach 1918 without of the war’s impact on the whole lives of those who having lost someone in the conflict. Every community returned, its impact on those who lost loved ones and, has its own story to tell of loss and blighted lives as indeed, of the debt that we owe to that whole generation. fiancés and husbands did not return. Moving forward to the present day, our country’s deployment in The Government have been very well served by the Afghanistan has now lasted more than three times First World War advisory group. Of the eight noble longer than the First World War; 453 servicemen have Lords who are part of that group, I particularly want died and we have felt the pain of every one. It is hard to mention, as they are in their places today, the noble to imagine now what it must have been like to live Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, and my noble through a conflict where around seven times that friends Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Wallace of many soldiers would lose their lives each week, or to Saltaire. However, I am extremely grateful, as I know appreciate how much of a scar was left on the country the Government are, to all those who have served on by the first day of the Battle of the Somme on 1 July the advisory group. 1916—a beautiful summer’s day, by all accounts—when I want to address the point raised by the noble Earl, 20,000 men were cut down before nightfall. Lord Clancarty—namely that the tone of what we are If we want to commemorate properly the First seeking to achieve is crucial. I assure the noble Earl World War—if we want to do justice to the memory of and all your Lordships that the most intense care has those who lived through it 100 years ago—those gone into ensuring that the tone is not at all nostalgic. commemorations cannot be about just those who That is not a word that I have identified in any of the fought and died on the front line. We also have to programmes that I have seen. It is important to say remember the heroes on the home front: the miners that. and factory and railway workers who kept our country My noble friend Lord Wallace of Saltaire took going; and those who worked the land and cared for forward an initiative last year to ask current Members the wounded. This could not have happened if women to speak of their families’ involvement in the war. had not taken on the jobs that had previously been Some 130 Peers have so far responded, with replies seen as the preserve of men. An additional 800,000 still coming in. This will be fed into Parliament’s own women took up jobs in industry; 1 million were employed plans to commemorate its role, and that of its Members by the Ministry of Munitions alone; some 400,000 and staff, during the conflict. My noble friend Lord women found work in offices, and another 200,000 in Selsdon gave a further personal insight into this initiative. different branches of government. As a result of that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, that so and many other changes, our society became much much of the personal knowledge and experience of less deferential, readier to challenge authority and today’s debate should be captured. Indeed, the more multicultural. The changes meant that the extension parliamentary choir, to which my noble friend Lord of the franchise, fought for by suffragettes and suffragists Thomas of Gresford referred, is embarking on an in the run-up to 1914, became irresistible by the end of exchange tour with the Bundestag choir, and we look the war—a very good thing. forward to seeing other parliamentary collaborations It is customary when winding up for the Opposition during the four years of commemorations. in debates of this type to either lay into the Government It is clear that many noble Lords wish to see the for their failings on the topic of the day or to list a programme reaching into every part of society and series of very tricky questions, which we have worked every part of the United Kingdom. I am most grateful on for hours and hours, aimed at unsettling and unseating to my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford for the Minister—I am giving away a secret about how we paying such a special tribute to the soldiers of Wales. do it—but I do not intend to do that. This is partly Indeed, I think that my noble friend Lord Trefgarne because so many noble Lords, such as my noble friend will also be interested to hear that the engagement at 1311 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] First World War 1312

Mametz Wood is being specifically recognised by a Welsh Women’s huge contribution helped bring about Votes National Opera production as part of the 14-18 NOW for Women. I was struck by what the noble Lord, Lord cultural programme. Watson of Invergowrie, said, and think that it is right that this is part of how we commemorate the war. I It is also increasingly evident that there is immense agree with the observation of the noble Lord, Lord and wide interest in the centenary across the country, Hannay of Chiswick, that perhaps the war would not and a thirst for knowledge about the war. The Government have happened if women had been at the helm at that are taking an appropriate lead in enabling people to time. On International Women’s Day, the culture commemorate in ways that are most appropriate to department awarded the First Aid Nursing Yeomanry them. Whether it is the sacrifices of small rural villages, a £20,000 grant to aid its present-day mission; and the such as Kineton in Warwickshire, about which my Heritage Lottery Fund has supported many local projects noble friend Lady Seccombe spoke so movingly, or the that tell women’s wartime stories, such as the digitisation immense contributions of whole countries in the then of the British Red Cross’s volunteer women’s records. Empire, such as the Battle of Neuve Chapelle in There is indication of a huge level of interest in the March 1915, at which the famous Jullundur Brigade war. The Imperial War Museum’s Centenary Partnership of the Indian Army fought so valiantly, each is equally now links around 900 commemorative projects and significant. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady events of all types, to which my noble friend Lord Flather, for all that she and others have done to ensure Shipley referred. Indeed, some 100 of these are wholly that a lasting Commonwealth memorial was erected or partly about women, such as an exhibition on on Constitution Hill. I very much endorse what she Women in Industry in the First World War at the said about how much we owe to India for its contribution Imperial War Museum North in Manchester. I pay in the First World War as part of the Empire. Today, tribute to the Imperial War Museums: they have risen in a different world, we are facilitating British Sikhs, to the challenges presented by the centenary magnificently Muslims and Hindus’ coming together to mark the and I very much look forward to seeing the new First centenary of the latter engagement next year. As I World War galleries when they open next month following said, we are also making funds available for the repair a £40 million investment. of war graves and memorials. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London and the noble Lord, Other national institutions are marking the anniversary Lord Faulkner of Worcester, referred to that. I also too, from the National Portrait Gallery’s impressive endorse what many noble Lords said about the World War I exhibition to the British Library’s new extraordinary and devoted work of the Commonwealth educational website. When I visited Bletchley Park last War Graves Commission. week I was struck by its plans for a fascinating exhibition on the role of British signals intelligence, which was in We are aiming to ensure that all organisations with its infancy during the First World War, and to which a specific interest in the war, from charities to all three my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding referred. I services, are properly represented at the 4 August mention also the National Memorial Arboretum’s events and at later national events. I reassure my noble events. Those of us who have seen “War Horse” will friend Lord King of Bridgwater that acceptances for understand what my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury all three 4 August events are coming in thick and fast. said. Indeed, at Park Lane there is a memorial not just I will ensure that he is informed about the tally of to horses but to all animals that served during the war. Commonwealth leaders when it is known. The same Many of the commemorative projects will have a applies to representatives with whom we are working cultural dimension. The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, to ensure that people of all races and religions have referred to the artistic programme planned to mark opportunities to get involved in marking a war that the Battle of Coronel, the Royal Navy’s engagement had a pivotal role in shaping our country.I am particularly off the coast of Chile. I wish this Anglo-Chilean grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howells of St Davids, project every possible success. for speaking about the great contribution of men and My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford mentioned women from the Caribbean. As she rightly said, they Hedd Wyn. One of the Heritage Lottery Fund community stood by the United Kingdom and answered the projects will be in Snowdonia to honour the Welsh war call. She referred also to the “cup of kindness” concept. poet. I will certainly look at the observations that she made about some of the projects that are being With culture, we should also include sport. My undertaken. noble friend Lord Shipley mentioned it; and I know that the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner of Worcester, will My noble friend Lady Seccombe and the noble share my appreciation of the way in which the Football Lord, Lord Stevenson, spoke about the contribution Association, the Premier League and the Football League of women. The empowerment of women was one of have come together to create the Football Remembers the most important ways in which the war shaped project, marking the centenary of the Christmas truce modern Britain. Not only did they enter the workplace in parts of the Western Front. as nurses, munitions workers and farmers helping to We are of course aware of the view in some quarters feed the nation, they kept communities going when the that the First World War was an “imperialist war”, but men were away and when so many of them were as I said, it is not the role of government to take a dealing with personal loss. I was struck by what my position on different historical interpretations. Our noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby said, and I well priority now is to honour the dead on all sides—the remember Testament of Youth, which had many references human stories of loss and trauma—and to recognise to my former school, Uppingham. the undoubted impacts of the war on our country in 1313 First World War[LORDS] First World War 1314

[LORD GARDINER OF KIMBLE] the war, and I know that the noble Lord, Lord West of so many ways. As part of this, we will of course be Spithead, has a particular interest in this. We will be working closely with former combatant countries and making an announcement about locations and logistics with countries that may feel ambiguous about the as soon as possible. Arguably the Somme, to which the centenary. noble Lord, Lord Davies of Stamford, referred, was I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord the war’s most infamous land battle. Shipley, for referring to the assistance received from I quite understand why the noble Lord, Lord Graham the Chinese. I was struck by what the noble Lord, of Edmonton, was not in a position to remain in the Lord Thomas of Swynnerton, said about the Russians, Chamber, but I thought that his extraordinary speech Americans, Italians and French. I should like to refer about the bravery of two former colleagues of his was also to the people of Belgium, who were occupied for spoken by an extremely brave man himself. so much of the war. It is also appropriate to mention that we are working with all those countries, and my Noble Lords: Hear, hear! honourable friend Dr Murrison—about whom many have spoken with gratitude—has had constructive dialogue with his Russian counterpart. Lord Gardiner of Kimble: Passchendaele gives scope to portray the extreme conditions in which the men of My noble friends Lord Trimble and Lord Bridgeman both sides lived, and Armistice Day allows deep reflection and the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, spoke powerfully on the war as a whole, and its dreadful cost. and movingly about the great Irish contribution to the war effort. A common understanding of the 1914 to Regimental events will mark a whole series of 1918 war is developing on both sides of the border, anniversaries, and we believe that the interest and and the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach’s visit to the engagement of the public will continue throughout. Western Front battlefields in December last year illustrates This will be sustained in part by the continuing the theme of reconciliation that will shape co-operation programmes of school battlefield visits and Heritage between the two countries during the centenary and Lottery Fund grants for local projects. It is of course beyond. open to those wishing to commemorate a particular centenary to develop a proposal and apply to the fund My noble friend Lord Elton and a number of other for support. noble Lords mentioned Mesopotamia. I think that I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, your Lordships will understand that, given the general for his words about nostalgia. I also want to reply to political situation there, it will be difficult for there to the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, and my noble friend be commemorations of the siege of Kut at this time. Lord Elton. I would be extremely worried indeed if However, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission nostalgia played any part in what was a horrendous has produced a two-volume roll of honour listing all war. As my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury expressed the casualties buried and commemorated in Iraq, including so strongly, the whole purpose of these battlefield the dead of the First World War who lie in the Kut war visits is to share in a humbling experience. I very much cemetery. hope that the teachers and pupils and all who visit What will be happening beyond 4 August? The these battlefields will gain what I did on my visit: a events of that day will be a wholly appropriate way in belief that they are a reason why we must never have which to launch the centenary. However, they are only wars like this again. I believe that the horror of the a beginning. The war lasted over four years and the sacrifice is what pupils will take back from their visits. real impact on communities, both here in the UK and Broadcasters will be keeping up the momentum abroad, played out across those years. The Somme, with a series of programmes over the four years. I Jutland, Passchendaele and other battles of which we acknowledge the exceptional range and quality of the will mark centenaries are burnt into our national First World War programming that there has been on consciousness. both television and radio. I am particularly grateful to One of the Government’s priorities has been to the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, for co-operate with the Australian, New Zealand, other bringing this to the attention of your Lordships. BBC Commonwealth and foreign Governments, and this Radio 3’s excellent broadcasts only this week are but will continue as we work together to ensure that the one example of the BBC’s remarkable contribution to tragic and heroic Gallipoli campaign is appropriately the commemorations. I will also look into the points marked next year both here and in Turkey. My noble that the noble Viscount made about other research friend Lady Suttie mentioned Hawick and the scale of proposals, and perhaps I may get back to him separately. its losses at Gallipoli. This was also remarked on by The manner in which your Lordships have spoken the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of London in his today is proof, if any were needed, of the ongoing reference to countries of the Empire, now the significance of the First World War in the consciousness Commonwealth, and the national tapestry whereby of this nation. It was, alas, not the war to end all wars, those countries are so much part of our lives today. yet it marked the start of the modern age—the time in The Government will be maintaining a steady drum which many features of modern British society had beat of projects and events right up to November their beginnings of roots. It was a war in which a 2018, and there are very good reasons why we have majority of British citizens, and vast numbers living in chosen to mark specific anniversaries. Marking Gallipoli the Empire, now the Commonwealth, knew death and allows us to mark the immense contribution made by suffering as never before. As the noble Lord, Lord servicemen of what is now the modern Commonwealth. Watson of Invergowrie, said, it was the first war that Jutland was one of the Navy’s biggest engagements of affected civilians greatly through air raids, the shelling 1315 First World War[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1316 of coastal towns and attacks on the Merchant Navy. It reports that ISIL had taken control of the Qaim and was a war marked by extraordinary acts of bravery Waleed border crossings with Syria. This would give among the horrors of it. It was a war whose memory ISIL control of Iraq’s entire border with Syria, with continues to toll a mournful bell through our cultural the exception of crossings in the Kurdistan region. memory, in poetry, arts and literature. Baiji—the site of Iraq’s largest oil refinery—has seen I particularly want to emphasise to the noble and intense fighting. Production has been stopped. A number learned Lord, Lord Scott of Foscote, that at no moment of foreign workers were based at the refinery, but has the word “celebration” been used or thought of in thankfully a small number of British nationals who our deliberations. were there were able to leave and are safe. I was very struck by what my noble friend Lady Towards the end of last week we saw further fighting Suttie, the noble Lord, Lord Watson of Invergowrie, at Baquba, 37 miles north-east of Baghdad, and Tal and the noble Baroness, Lady Flather, said regarding Afar, 30 miles west of Mosul. Both have since seen their relations never speaking about the war. It is fierce fighting between ISIL and Iraqi security forces. perhaps appropriate to mention that it was only when The fall of Tal Afar and the capture of its airport is I had to give an address for a cousin and did my thought to have given ISIL further access to weapons research for that speech that I discovered that he was a and ammunition left by the ISF. The Kurdistan region doctor who landed 45 minutes after the first landing remains more stable, but the Kurdish Peshmerga forces on the Normandy beaches and looked after the wounded. have also been involved in fighting ISIL, and have He never spoke of it. reported some casualties. The situation remains fluid This will be a centenary in which the Government and very dangerous. are giving a lead but which is owned by us all. It is for The speed and brutality of ISIL’s attacks have all of us alive today to mark the extraordinary events caused widespread suffering among ordinary Iraqis. of 100 years ago in a way that honours the dead, The UN announced yesterday that it can confirm the respects the bereaved and the wounded in mind and deaths of 1,075 Iraqis so far in June, many of whom body, and pays tribute to the service of so many. I am were civilians. However, it is also clear that the real extremely grateful to your Lordships for your support figure is likely to be much higher. We have seen other of the plans so far. I will continue to keep the House alarming reports of ISIL’s brutality, despite suggestions informed of the progress for the commemorations. I that life has returned to normal in Mosul. As we have look forward to the active engagement of your Lordships seen in Syria, a period of normality has been followed as we move into commemorations that are respectful, by horrifying and cruel treatment of the population inclusive and enduring. through targeted violence and barbaric punishments. There are reports that the women of Mosul have been Motion agreed. attacked, including being subjected to acts of sexual violence. There are also high-profile reports of ISIL’s treatment Iraq of captured Iraqi security force personnel. Last week Motion to Take Note we saw the images of summary executions by ISIL, including what is thought to have been up to 1,700 air 8.20 pm force recruits. There have also been humiliating and Moved by Baroness Warsi harrowing videos of Iraqi soldiers being tortured and intimidated. Such scenes play an all-too-familiar part That this House takes note of the security and of ISIL’s conduct in Syria. Many Iraqis will remember political situation in Iraq. and fear a return of the open sectarian violence seen between 2006 and 2007. It is not possible to verify individual cases, but given what we know about ISIL, The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities we fear these reports could be accurate. and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Lords, I am grateful ISIL has also taken a number of international for the opportunity to debate a timely issue of growing hostages during its recent attacks, which is consistent concern. Noble Lords will be aware of the Statement with its tactics in Syria. More than 90 Turkish citizens on Iraq made by my right honourable friend, the are thought to have been taken, including staff from Foreign Secretary, which I repeated to this House last the Turkish consulate-general in Mosul. Also, 40 Indian week. I described the violent attacks by the Islamic nationals were taken from a bus as they attempted to State of Iraq and the Levant on the city of Mosul. In escape the fighting. Our thoughts are with those people the following days ISIL rapidly advanced south on the and their families. main road to Baghdad, seizing control of towns including ISIL’s stated goal is to establish a state that does not Shirqat and Tikrit, some 110 miles north of the capital. recognise borders, including ungoverned space in Iraq Initially, Iraqi forces proved unable to resist ISIL’s and Syria. We know from Syria that ISIL would use attacks, but on 17 June Government forces were able to violence, extortion and intimidation to dominate those halt ISIL’s rapid advance towards Baghdad at the town whom it seeks to control. There can be no compromise of Samarra, which lies about 80 miles north of the with ISIL and it poses a great danger to the Iraqi capital. people. It appears that ISIL has exploited political and Since its initial surge, ISIL has consolidated its social divisions in Iraq to falsely portray itself as an control of much of western and northern Iraq, outside alternative to Iraq’s democratically elected government. the Kurdistan region. Over the weekend, there were ISIL has formed loose alliances with other armed 1317 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1318

[BARONESS WARSI] results for all but a small number of newly elected groups, including former Baathists—the remnants of MPs. There is now a clear process to be followed for the old Saddam regime—and disaffected people in the the formation of a new Government. The Council of mainly Sunni-majority provinces they now control. Representatives is expected to meet next week and we Sadly, this does say much about underlying divisions must begin this work in earnest. This is a time for in Iraq. That is why we are clear that, alongside urgency. Iraqi leaders cannot afford to delay this process. measures to restore security, we need an urgent political Only the people of Iraq should decide who leads them. solution. The vast majority of Iraqis do not want to However, it is clear that Iraq now needs a unity return to the worst of sectarian violence. The support Government who can address the immediate security of moderate Sunnis was vital in defeating al-Qaeda in situation and the underlying divisions that weaken the 2006, and so it will be again to drive ISIL out of Iraq’s country. That will include making difficult decisions communities. This will mean inclusive politics and and compromises, but the need to do that is clear. addressing the needs of that community. On the issue of assistance to the Iraqi Government, we are urgently looking at other ways to help Iraq to The situation in Iraq is of the highest priority and stabilise the security situation. We will continue to Ministers have been fully engaged in work on how we liaise closely with our allies. respond to this threat to Iraq’s stability and security implications. My right honourable friend the Prime The Government’s highest priority, of course, is the Minister chaired a meeting of the National Security security of the UK, which means working to stem the Council last Wednesday, which discussed the British flow of foreign fighters into Syria and potentially Government’s response to the current situation. My Iraq. It also means supporting groups such as the right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has moderate opposition in Syria, who are fighting ISIL spoken with regional Foreign Ministers, including Iraqi and squeezing the extremists. Foreign Minister Zebari, Prince Saud of the Kingdom As with so many conflicts, the most vulnerable are of Saudi Arabia, Iranian Foreign Minister Zarif and often the victims. ISIL’s attack on Mosul on 10 June Turkish Foreign Minister Davutoglu, with whom he led to the displacement of 500,000 people, doubling discussed the welfare of the kidnapped Turkish citizens. the amount of Iraqis displaced by violence over the He has also been in close contact with Secretary past few months. Many have turned to the comparative Kerry, who visited Baghdad earlier this week, to share safety of the Kurdistan region of Iraq—a region which our assessment of the situation and to discuss how we is already host to some 220,000 Syrian refugees. can work together and with allies to make some progress. The UK was the first country to deploy a team to We strongly support Secretary Kerry’s efforts and we assess the humanitarian crisis after the attacks. We agreed on the vital need for Iraqi leaders to work have announced £5 million-worth of support for NGOs urgently for an inclusive political solution, as well as to help with water supply and sanitation, to provide responding to the immediate security challenge. assistance with camp construction and to provide On Monday, my right honourable friend the Foreign emergency food and medicine. We will continue to Secretary was in Luxembourg, where he discussed the look at what more we can do to alleviate this suffering. situation with his EU counterparts. He had a further I also welcome the announcement by the European opportunity to discuss the situation with NATO Foreign Union of ¤5 million of support to help displaced people. Ministers in Brussels yesterday. My right honourable The situation in Iraq underlines the need to back friend the Defence Secretary visited the Gulf this week those groups in the region, including in Syria, which to discuss the situation with regional allies. He reiterated are able and willing to counter the extremists and our commitment to regional security and the constructive which have a pluralist and inclusive vision for their role that countries in the region can and must play in country. That is why we are increasing our support to tackling the threat from extremism. I hope to be able the moderate opposition in Syria. They are defending to update this House of further developments in coming the Syrian people against both the extremists and the days. brutality of the Assad regime. ISIL’s ability to operate The Government have made it clear that we are not in both Syria and Iraq should be of concern for the planning a military intervention in Iraq. This is a fight whole international community. The only sustainable that must be led by Iraqis, but we will consider options solution to the crisis in Syria is to reach a negotiated to support them where we can. First, we have been political transition by mutual consent. promoting political unity among those who support a While the majority of ISIL’s fighters are drawn democratic future for Iraq. Secondly, we stand ready from Iraq and Syria, there is also a significant number to offer assistance where appropriate and possible. of foreign fighters. We estimate that about 400 British Thirdly, we are helping to alleviate the suffering of nationals have travelled to Syria to fight. Not all are those affected by the recent violence. I will address fighting alongside extremist groups, but some will each of these in turn. inevitably be fighting with ISIL across Syria and Iraq. It is vital for the immediate and long-term security On 20 June, support for ISIL and other terrorist and stability of Iraq that its political leaders put aside groups became a criminal offence under the Terrorism their differences and work together in the interests of a Act 2000. united and inclusive country. My right honourable There should be absolutely no doubt that the friend the Foreign Secretary made this clear when he Government are prepared to take action to protect the spoke to the Iraqi Foreign Minister last week. Millions UK’s national security. That includes confiscating of Iraqis voted in elections in April this year. On passports, not allowing people to travel and prosecuting 16 June, the Iraqi Supreme Court ratified those election those who break the law. Ultimately, our priority must 1319 Iraq[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1320 be to dissuade people from travelling to these areas of When I now reflect on what happened, I believe conflict in the first place. Our Prevent strategy includes that we have to admit that we failed in our mission. We work to identify and support individuals who are at failed primarily because we paid insufficient regard to risk of radicalisation. the lessons of history and the Sunni/Shia conflict, and In conclusion, the situation remains very serious. Her we stayed too long. It was Ahmed Chalabi who said to Majesty’s Government are focused closely on me in 2004 over dinner in this House, “Get out now or developments in Iraq, and we stand ready to help if it will all go wrong”. He harboured deep concerns needed, particularly those most affected by violence. over failures in America’s administration in Iraq, and However, this crisis has underlined the deep political how right he has turned out to be. My only regret is divisions in Iraq and the urgent need to restore unity that, despite all the chatter on Chalabi’s past, he never and confidence in Iraqi politics, which will mean became Prime Minister. He would have avoided much responsible leadership that works for the interests of of the difficulty that has arisen. all Iraqis. But not all has been a disaster. Our intervention has I look forward to all contributions today. I beg given birth to one of the most successful developing to move. economies in the world—a blooming Kurdistan. We now stand on the threshold of a dream that I have had 8.32 pm for 25 years—an independent Kurdistan. I believe that Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, while I the Sykes-Picot settlement was ill conceived and the follow events in Iraq, I rarely speak on the issue, time has come for the map to be redrawn. The Kurds although throughout the 1990s I had considerable now have an historic opportunity and they should contact with the Iraqi opposition—in particular, Jalal seize it. The window is open. The reality is that Iraq Talabani, Barham Salih, Hoshyar Zebari, Ahmed Chalabi could be held together only in conditions of repression. and many others—often on a daily basis. I feel that I Saddam Hussein was not an accident of history. Just need to go back in history to make my case today. as Tito held together the potential warring factions of I supported the first intervention in the early 1990s, the former Yugoslavia—when he went, it broke and in the 1997-2001 Parliament I repeatedly called up—Saddam had held together deep divisions in Iraq for, and openly supported, military intervention. I was and his downfall has brought its people the right to not alone, and I find it what I can only describe as self-determination, which may well mean break-up. “vomit-inducing” to hear the back-stabbing of Blair What should we do? In my view, the West should by many who openly supported intervention and who keep out. The more we intervene, the more we fuel the are now in denial. The idea that most of us supported excesses of militant Islam. It may already have gone intervention on the single justification of WMD is too far. It might even be that we end up with a divided nonsense. Our concerns went far wider, and I know Baghdad as we had in Jerusalem in the 1960s and because I attended many of the pre-conflict meetings Beirut in the 1980s—perhaps a capital divided between both here and in America, in both the legislative and two independent states. Equally, we should not presume executive branches of government, where wider concerns that a Sunni north, perhaps stretching into Syria, were under consideration. I visited America on three would necessarily be ISIS-dominated. The Sunni separate occasions to discuss the Iraqi problem and I community in Iraq enjoyed a measure of freedom found far more resistance to the prospect of war in the under a secular Saddam, and it will not give it up in Congress than ever was the case in the British Parliament. favour of ISIS restrictions and Sharia extremes. I recall that the main concerns on both sides of the There is, however, an initiative that we could take. Atlantic were the need to end the threat to the Kurds, Militant Islam is now a worldwide phenomenon that the need to stop Saddam’s programme of environmental needs worldwide recognition, understanding and action. destruction and population displacement in the south, We simply cannot proceed on the basis of some rustled-up the need to curtail any aspirations of Saddam for coalition of western forces, provoking resentment and incursions into neighbouring states and, finally—in anger through intervention. The divisions between the my view, one of the most important reasons, though international powers on the way to proceed, with rarely talked about—the need to remove Saddam’s benefit and disbenefit to their economies in mind, is threat to the international oil economy. That threat getting us nowhere. Russian defence contracts, Chinese was a cause of volatility in international oil markets, mineral concessions and other interests must not be with the potential to destabilise economies and impact allowed to impede debate on handling militant Islam. on employment policies in the oil-dependent economies Regional solutions are not working, and at most they of the West—something that we should still have in are of marginal benefit. mind. Those were the real reasons for intervention, We should now turn to the United Nations and not WMD. My only criticism of Blair is that concerns pursue what at first glimpse appears to be impossible. over justification in international law drove us down Our policy should be to act only in conditions of the WMD route. unanimity among the permanent representatives of My argument with the Americans was their refusal the Security Council and from recommendations from to clamp down on Saddam’s illegal oil sales, which the wider Security Council. I must confess that my were sustaining the regime. The Americans refused to knowledge of UN practice is very limited. However, I budge and the sanctions busting was ignored. That note that there is a constant in the way in which failure drove us into a war that some of us originally people, as individuals, conduct themselves in committee believed could have been avoided. Chilcot was told discussions at every level, whether it is the parish this during his inquiry, and we wait to see whether he council or company boardroom. I sense that that picks it up in his report. constant applies equally at the United Nations. People 1321 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1322

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] For us in the United Kingdom not to recognise our in general, as individuals, often use their blocking role in the history and geopolitics of the region is to powers, their veto or abstention in conditions where deny that the West—most notably the United States they believe that their view will be ignored and that and the UK—is heavily implicated in what has gone some justification for a particular course of action will wrong across the region. The current period has its still be found by those who feel strongly. That is what roots in the end of the Cold War when the four has been happening in the United Nations. left-facing Arab nationalist countries in the region—Iraq, It appears to me that when people know that their Syria, Libya and Algeria—were left without superpower judgment and vote will actually influence an outcome support with the demise of the Soviet Union. It is and control events, they are inclined to make a very instructive to see that not only have three of those different calculation. I suspect that that is the case countries been engulfed in conflict to a greater or equally at the United Nations. I believe that the necessary lesser degree, but that the end of bipolarity has extended multinational approach to dealing with militant Islam instability across the whole of the Arab world to provides precisely those conditions. Militant Islam include neighbouring countries too. requires new, innovative thinking, with original thought Our erroneous support for Saddam in the Iran-Iraq being given to new solutions, not necessarily military. war, which resulted in the deaths of millions on both We need a new coalition that embraces more than just sides, and then US exhortations after the Kuwaiti a majority among the major powers. liberation for Shias and Kurds to rise up against I end with a few general comments. I understand him—and then abandoning them when they did so to that there is a view that the most recent election results Saddam’s further brutality—cost tens of thousands of in Iraq offer the opportunity for a more inclusive lives as his repression increased. The years of no-fly Administration. While I have always believed that zones which enabled the Kurds to establish the roots extremes can often talk where moderates compromise of their autonomous region, and which was never as they lose sight of the attainable, I just do not believe going to be a long-term solution, culminated in the that that is the case in Iraq. The extremes here are now Iraq war of 2003, for which the party opposite bears too grounded in historical antagonism. They are too so much responsibility. We will have to see the results polarised. My view is: keep out and build that new of the Chilcot report to know the full extent of that international coalition. culpability. 8.42 pm It is invidious to argue that the Iraq war has not led to where we are now. Of course it has. The House may Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD): My Lords, have forgotten that on 23 March 2003, within three one always looks at a list of these kinds of debates on days of the invasion, all 22 countries of the Arab League, the Middle East and thinks that one will hear speeches meeting in Cairo, supported a resolution condemning from the usual suspects. Then, of course, one is astonished the invasion as a violation of the UN charter and when one hears a rather remarkable delivery from demanding a complete withdrawal of US and British someone who does not conform to the traditional troops from Iraqi soil. Kuwait was the sole exception view that most of us share in this House. The noble and it had its debts to repay to the US. There was not Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will not be surprised to an iota of legitimacy in that war, as the Arab League know that I disagree with his analysis. I assure him saw it. It was no war of liberation for them. that, although my notes were written before I heard him, he has not persuaded me that his recipe for So we moved from the upheaval created by the success would have delivered nirvana in Iraq. events of 9/11 and the Iraq war to the Arab spring. In I am sorry that the title of this debate is about the interim, all the countries of the Middle East security and the political situation in Iraq. I think that experienced a rise of jihadi violence, something not points to the fallacy of western thinking in the Middle known as a phenomenon in the Arab world until the East which, in an increasingly interdependent and invasion of Iraq. A comment piece in the New Statesman, interconnected world, still sees developments there as a Labour-supporting magazine, says in this week’s taking place in sovereign states on the basis that they edition in a colourful attack on Tony Blair—to which are entirely autonomous and self-contained units, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, probably completely in charge of their own destinies. That was referred—that, never so in the Middle East, and even less so in the “according to a 2007 study, the Iraq war ‘generated a stunning Arab world, which has a religious, linguistic and cultural sevenfold increase in the yearly rate of fatal jihadist attacks’”. construct irrespective of boundaries until recent history. I turn to the situation in Syria. In 2011, when Therefore, I will speak about Iraq today in the context Bashar al-Assad started torturing and shooting dead too of developments in Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. unarmed, innocent protestors whose crime was to ask It is tempting to think of this current crisis and the for delivery on his own promised reforms and for some potential break-up of Iraq as an entirely sectarian war freedom, we were urged across both Houses to do between Sunni and Shia—the settling of scores, we are nothing. I called for limited support through the sale told, that are 1,500 years old. That is too simplistic an of arms for the Syrian opposition forces from late understanding of Islam, of the tribal loyalties and 2011. I kept to that position until the Syria vote in the allegiances of the region and, moreover, it is a narrative House of Commons on 29 August 2013 and our which detaches the millions of Muslims who have debate here in the Lords. Assisting one side in a war is embraced modernity and thrive in the interconnected not of itself immoral. If it changes the symmetry of and globalised world, at peace with themselves and war it may result in a lower loss of life as the other side with each other, both Sunni and Shia. is more inclined to sue for peace. 1323 Iraq[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1324

Any who are following the debates here in the past I have said in the past that, while we cannot know five years will have heard extraordinary interventions of the consequences that any action on our part might describing the sacrifices that countries have to make, bring, we know that inaction has consequences as whether they wish to be there or not. I particularly pay well. This last year has shown us that. In the end, tribute to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay— choices will have to be made as the Middle East is too who is in his usual place and will be speaking today—with strategically important on moral, humanitarian and which I entirely concur and by which I was enormously economic grounds for us simply to be bystanders. moved. His presence in our House is a great credit to us. 8.51 pm In the period between 2011 and the current day it is Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, I hope true that the civil war in Syria has become more that it will please my Liberal Democrat friends behind sectarian, but it did not start out so. There was a meifIbeginbyremindingthemthatitwasHHAsquith period until the end of 2012 when the conflict was who, at the time of the crumbling belt of an Empire mainly between Assad’s forces and the Free Syrian 100 years ago, was strongest in pointing out the extreme Army. Latterly it was joined by Jabhat al-Nusra—which dangers of disturbing what he called the, was an offshoot of al-Qaeda, not ISIS—and ISIS came into the frame only last year within Syria. My “hornets’ nest of Arab tribes and sects”, point is that there was a period when action by the in the Middle East and Mesopotamia region. I must West might have resulted in a lower loss of life, a lower say that I think the wisdom of Mr Asquith prevails cost in human misery and certainly a lower cost in the and I also agree substantially with some of the remarks treasure that is and will be expended to bring stability made by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. to the entire region as it faces conflagration. The priorities of foreign policy, which we must have and must clarify, are absolutely clear to me. They are, We are now in a situation where that conflagration, first, to stay out of Iraq in its present internecine which first engulfed Iraq, then Syria and now Iraq turmoil, except of course for humanitarian reasons. That again, seems to be beyond our capabilities to control. I is easily said, but it involves a great deal of courage have no solutions to offer that the Government will and a great deal of difficulty, but obviously we must not already have thought of. Clearly it is a priority to do our best on that front. Secondly, we must support secure a unity Government in Iraq inclusive of all the Middle East areas of stability that remain and sides. Clearly we need to impress upon the Kurds that maintain friendships in what is now a sea of turmoil doing a land grab in the middle of this crisis does not with what the Minister rightly described as our regional constitute legitimacy, so they cannot use the status allies. quo ante as a precedent to expand their reach. Clearly we need to work with new urgency on a Geneva III. What do I mean by our regional allies? We are close Surely the facts on the ground point us towards bringing to little Jordan, which is threatened. We ought to be both sides together in Syria in reconciliation and in supporting Jordan quite openly, clearly, unashamedly common purpose against the jihadis. and vigorously in every way we can. We should support Turkey, which despite some of its present difficulties, We also need to use our leverage with Saudi Arabia is a strong nation and a good friend. Although it is and the Gulf states to cut off channels of support for more difficult, we need to support in its agony little ISIS. It cannot be sufficient for them to say that they Lebanon, which is facing appalling difficulties as a are helpless and cannot control private or charitable result of the Syrian refugees, but somehow must be donations, although I have to say that ISIS is swimming preserved and strengthened and helped to overcome in funds from Mosul and its various extortion rackets; its internal political difficulties. I would have added to some $3 billion, we are told. the list the giant of the Middle East, Egypt, which Let me say a brief word about the ideology of ISIS represents one-quarter of the whole Arab population and the extremist jihadi groups. If their intention is to and which some of us have just visited. The only establish a caliphate in the Middle East, they will not difficulty is that the Egyptians are currently mismanaging stop at borders. Yes, they consolidate their gains, but quite badly the public presentation of their internal the very ideology of a pan-Islamic caliphate is founded affairs. They need to understand just what damage on the dismissal of boundaries. A further several that does to their own progress and road map. An decades of war confronts us should they be allowed to Egypt that is stable and on the right road to building a establish themselves. It is not a prospect we can Parliament that respects human rights is a clear priority countenance, and nor should we. We need to be prepared for this nation, and it would be—if we were not to act when and where there is an opportunity for us getting some of the relationships slightly wrong—a to do so, be it through intelligence, strategic support, real asset that should be supported. If Kurdistan force protection or the use of bases in the near term. arises and if we really are seeing the breaking down of In the longer term, our choices become harder. We are the line-drawing by Sir Mark Sykes’ and François a UNSC power and our interests are engaged in Georges-Picot, we must understand Kurdistan’s ambitions preventing a major threat to international peace and and work out how to support them and the Gulf states. security both abroad and here at home. Our interests I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, are engaged to prevent a terrorist state controlling and others that we must stay out of Iraq for two vital oil fields and maritime trading routes. Our interests reasons. The first is that the Sunnis will in the end are engaged because we are bound with those who are defeat themselves. There is the potential for endless suffering the fatalities of innocent civilians in our breakaway in such organisations and movements. They common humanity. are always splitting. Those of us who served in Northern 1325 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1326

[LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] to lose in Iraq—they do not get mentioned very much— Ireland in its most violent days will remember that, are the Chinese. They have huge investments in Iraq first, it was the IRA, then it was the Provisional IRA and rely greatly for their vast oil imports on Iran and and then it was more extreme versions of the IRA and Iraq. It is time—and I hope that HMG will realise this so on. They were always splitting away from each and put it to Beijing—that the Chinese, who are other, as each became more violent. Likewise, ISIS is inclined to say, “Well, we don’t really have a foreign being seen as too violent even for al-Qaeda. policy; we don’t believe in intervention”, face up to the The great Middle East expert, Alastair Crooke, was fact that they are involved and take a serious view, as telling some of us just the other day that true Islam is they found they had to do in Sudan, where they were resistance against established authority. It always tries also heavily invested. to undermine the established authority of states. What To end, the pollsters, focus groups and election we have seen, therefore, is not so much an invasion of experts keep telling us that foreign policy is not important. Iraq from the north as a Sunni arising inside Iraq. When they look at the list it comes 14th—after That is what we have to deal with. immigration, health, crime, schools and all the rest. They are wrong. The truth is that foreign policy can There has been no Arab spring. Experts talk about break nations and Governments. We have to be extremely Arab awakening being about jobs, dignity, liberty and careful at this incredibly dangerous, precarious moment so on; it is not so. What was coming was always power that in the quagmire of the Middle East our experience fragmentation, digital street empowerment, the overthrow and wisdom as a nation and our understanding of the of all authority and the transmission of power to the vast dangers that Mr Asquith pointed out 100 years street or, in the language of the French Revolution, to ago are realised and built upon and will see us through. the gutter. That cannot be solved by western intervention. It was the wrong call to depict what was going to happen as being akin to the freedom of the former 9pm Communist satellites in eastern Europe. Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, as far as That has to be explained better to our American I can see, reactions to recent events in Iraq have friends. Again and again, I find that we are accused tended, both here and across the Atlantic, to be dominated around the world of not explaining to the Americans by a combination of short memories and a number of the full consequences of the original Iraq invasion, rather self-centred analyses based on unhappy experiences which some of us certainly supported at the time—I following the 2003 invasion. Yet, neither of those fully concede that point to the noble Lord, Lord reactions seems particularly helpful for determining Campbell-Savours. With our experience, our skill and an effective response to recent events. In particular, our collective memory, we need to explain more clearly some of what I would describe as unwise and self-serving that what is needed in this turmoil of the Middle East attempts by those responsible for the policy decisions is not military intervention or an assertion of American taken in 2003 to revisit the rights and wrongs of those military leadership—which I think President Obama decisions will frankly not be a helpful guide to future understands, although he was slightly moving away policy. However, nor is an analysis that treats the 2003 from it the other day—but an America that is a invasion as the root of all Iraq’s problems. After all, it partner with the rising powers of the region in trying was Saddam Hussein who gassed the Kurds in Halabja to maintain areas of stability amidst a sea of turmoil. in 1988. It was his helicopter gunships that slaughtered the Shia in Najaf and Karbala in 1991. Saddam A constant theme that we hear is the danger posed Hussein’s Iraq may have been a secular state but it was by jihadist recruitment, with too many young men also a sectarian one with a minority Sunni elite dominating being seduced into fighting for the caliphate. I agree and repressing the Kurds and Shia. with the Prime Minister that this is a danger, but I am There has been, too, a lot of loose talk in recent not sure that the answer is to talk just about values. days about the break-up of Iraq. Here I part company Every country has its values and one sometimes feels a long way from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, that some of the Asian values—including a commitment who wishes to break up Iraq into its various parts. I to family life and so on—are better than anything we suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, was also can deliver in the West. To keep young men from being flirting with that idea. Put simply, it is hard to see how recruited by the jihadists, we need a very strong purpose that could occur without a great deal of sanguinary and direction in this country—a cause to fight for, a fighting over the boundaries of the three states that cause to be proud to belong to. We cannot be surprised Iraq might be composed of. It could not be done if young men with no jobs and with a woolly and without substantial ethnic cleansing or the risk of blurred view of what we stand for as a nation are even more war crimes and atrocities than have already dragged away into fighting for glory and the fantasy of taken place. Moreover, an independent Kurdish state the new caliphate. could trigger instability and perhaps hostilities in Iran, On oil prices, about which we had some warnings, Turkey and Syria—all of which have substantial Kurdish the shale revolution in America, which is ceasing to be populations. Then a Shia state, heavily dependent for a gas and oil importer—it may even be exporting gas its survival on Iran, could simply accelerate the drift very soon—has just about counterbalanced worries towards a Shia/Sunni confrontation right across the about oil supplies from Iraq, which have not yet been Middle East. A Sunni state, land-locked, with no affected but may be affected quite soon; they are natural resources and probably dominated by ISIS, mostly in the south. There is perhaps also a feeling would be a security nightmare within the region and that Iran’s output will rise. I think that there will be a far beyond. I suggest that the splitting up of Iraq is a balance. Oddly enough, the people who have the most worst-case scenario not a prescription for policy. 1327 Iraq[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1328

What then is the right response? Clearly, the sine Falkner, who pointed that out. I believe that inaction qua non of restoring any sort of security and stability or the mere offering of gratuitous advice from a safe to Iraq is the formation of an inclusive Government distance is not a particularly good option or one that that brings in elements of all three main communities is likely to have much effect. on the basis of the democratic elections that took place in April. I welcome very much the Minister’s description of how important it is not to move away 9.08 pm from that democratic legitimacy. It is encouraging that Lord King of Bridgwater (Con): My Lords, the that is roughly what was said by the spiritual leader of noble Lord, Lord Hannay, has given us a calm and the Shia community, Ayatollah Sistani, who has so logical voice of sanity on these problems. My concern often been a wise voice of moderation. He seems to be is that in the hothouse of tensions in the area, there calling for such an inclusive approach. It is neither are not many cool heads around and that the dangers necessary nor, I suggest, desirable for outsiders to tell of all the courses which he set out may not be immediately Iraqis who should lead that Government, or even who apparent to any of those who may embark on them. I should not lead it. If the establishment of democratic read the announcement today that Shia hit squads in processes, which was one of the few truly positive Baghdad are deliberately targeting perfectly moderate outcomes of the 2003 invasion, mean anything it must Sunnis, obviously to stir up further hatred and conflict. mean that such choices are for the Iraqis. My noble friend the Minister set out clearly the What can outsiders do? The cautious but positive Government’s understanding of the position at the response given by President Obama to the Iraqi moment. One of the difficulties is that the position is Government’s plea for help—the dispatch of a limited extremely confused. An interesting illustration of this number of military advisers and the prospect of targeted was the bombing of ISIS. There seem to be three air strikes—seems, I suggest, the right response. I very candidates now running: some people said it was the much hope that we, too, will respond positively if we Americans, the tribesmen said it was the Syrians and are asked to help by the Iraqis or if the Americans meanwhile the Iraqi air force is having a little bombing indicate that they would welcome more help. The run of its own at the oil refinery at Baiji. I listen to security threats from a fragmented Iraq were spelt out those who think that military intervention might somehow by the Prime Minister. I find it ironic that most of be helpful and say how far we should go in that those who spoke on the other side of the argument support. There is a feeling that you can bomb incredibly about Syria said last year that keeping out of Syria accurately and always hit the right people. I do not would safeguard us from any possible blowback from quite know how you would actually bomb ISIS. Would jihadi extremists. Now we are seeing just how much you hit ISIS camps in the desert or kill moderate good keeping out of Syria has done us. Sunnis, who are temporary hostages of the ISIS organisation at the moment? If we and the US want our views about the need for the formation of an inclusive Iraqi Government to be Critical to this situation, it seems, is this: where is taken seriously, surely we have to be ready to support the majority Sunni population at present? Are they such a Government. Are we and should we be doing effectively hostages or motivated at the moment by anything to muster wider international support for such hatred of the unfair Government in Baghdad, as Iraq in its hour of need? It should surely be possible to they see it, that they have gone along with ISIS but, on get the UN Security Council to reaffirm Iraq’s territorial reflection, will not wish to see Iraq broken up? In any integrity and single sovereignty and to call for international of the dealings I have had, I found that there is a backing for that and for humanitarian relief efforts. loyalty to Iraq even though there are Sunni and Shia This is surely a case where the responsibility to protect factions and they are often so bitterly divided. Will the civilians of Iraq, which their own Government are they want to see it break up and, when it comes to the not well placed to do at the moment, should not be as crunch, how many of the Sunni are actually Baathists contentious as it has been in other areas. who will not want to see the Islamists coming though? There may be people who could be brought forward to Is any thought being given to a Security Council help within the inclusive Government who many have approach? What is being done to rally support for Iraq talked about, perhaps under a more inclusive leader more widely? I very much welcome what the Minister than Mr Maliki. said about the European Union’s contribution to that. Iran is clearly an important player in all these matters. However, the idea of keeping the borders and seeing President Rouhani’s reaction to the events has had that go forward satisfactorily under a more inclusive some positive features, but there are risks that Iranian Government then hits the Kurdish roadblock. I see military involvement could end up exacerbating the that Secretary Kerry, having talked to President Barzani sectarian divisions and dimension to the fighting and in Erbil, has found that there was something less than make the formation of an inclusive Iraqi Government enthusiasm for sticking to the good old boundaries. If more difficult. What use are the Government planning you add into that Kirkuk, which has been their ambition to make of the welcome newly established channel of for such a long time, I do not see any great enthusiasm communication with Iran following our decision to there to give that city up. I spent a little time with the reopen the embassy there? Are they consulting the Kurds at the end of the first Gulf War, when we did Iranian Government directly on their views? Operation Provide Comfort. I flew into northern Iraq when we were providing air cover to prevent the air There are, alas, no particularly good or easy policy strikes from Saddam and his helicopter gunships. At choices at the present juncture, but inaction is a choice that time, one saw the determination and resolution of too. There I very much join the noble Baroness, Lady the Kurds and the Peshmerga. Of course, the Peshmerga 1329 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1330

[LORD KING OF BRIDGWATER] The failure was, frankly, a failure of the post-conflict did not have any air cover but in terms of ground plan and the dysfunctional nature of the United States forces, they were certainly a very resolute lot and I do Administration, particularly when they replaced Colin not think that they will be easily dislodged. Powell, who had a plan, with Donald Rumsfeld, who Following on from that, we obviously face the risk simply felt that all we had to do was take away of an appallingly dangerous situation, as many other Saddam Hussein, get rid of the Baathist party and its noble Lords have said. I said in the debate on the operations in Iraq and everyone would welcome Queen’s Speech that a distinguished Jordanian had democracy with open arms. It never works like that, said to me that he felt, some months ago, there was the and it certainly did not then. Along with my noble risk of a conflagration that would go from Beirut to friend’s colleague Ann Clwyd MP, I wrote a whole Mumbai. I wrote that down and the next morning—the pamphlet for the Fabian Society on this very issue morning of the Lords debate, as noble Lords may back in 2004. remember—we heard about Mosul, when ISIS first I shall leave that aside, though, because—I agree appeared aggressively on the scene. Of course, it is not with everyone who has said this—you cannot pin the Beirut to Mumbai but Mali to Mumbai, with Boko current situation on the removal of Saddam in 2003. It Haram and the scale of the chaos across that area. My is very hard to conceive of the war in Syria not noble friend Lord Howell referred to what might have affecting Iraq even if Saddam had been in power. We been a huge stabilising influence in Egypt, which is have to look slightly deeper at this. It is pointless to now in total chaos as far as one sees, with journalists look at historical causes. Youcould point to the nature locked up and half the opposition now sentenced to of the Ottoman Empire, which, although a very civilising death. The reality of the new Government in Egypt and progressive empire, at its end was very brutal in gives great cause for concern. the region. Gertrude Bell has been mentioned, and Against that background there is the danger of this you could point to our division of the Middle East in going so much wider, which would then involve a lot her time—but going back in history does not actually of other people as well. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, solve current problems. referred to Iran, which is obviously acutely concerned I want to say a couple of things. First, and I know by the situation. If we are really going to see significant that the Minister has a particular interest in this, we conflagration and Sunni, Shia and Islamist activities have not talked enough about the Sunni/Shia divide. then Russia will have concerns, as will China. The There has always been a division within Islam; at risks that my noble friend referred to in Jordan and times it has been bad and at other times not so bad. Lebanon must also be high on our list of priorities. It You could say the same of Christianity. The present is against that background that, while respecting the division got dramatically worse in 1979-80 with the sensitivities of Saudi Arabia, the Gulf states and arrival of Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran and then the Israel about our involvement with Iran, I welcome the following Iran/Iraq war. Only a few weeks ago I was opening of the embassy in Tehran and very much talking to the King of Bahrain and some of his people hope that we can find ways in which, without there about this problem. His generation feel quite compromising our support for the Gulf states, Iran strongly that they do not want to be labelled as Sunni can make a constructive contribution. or Shia because they regard themselves as Muslims—and I end with the unhelpful comment of Gertrude Bell I suspect that the noble Baroness takes exactly the about the people in the region, which I see the New same view. My concern, and this is one of the things Statesman has quoted: that we have to address, is that the younger generation “No one knows exactly what they do want, least of all is becoming increasingly pushed into support for either themselves, except that they don’t want us”. Sunni or Shia. The more that we go down that road, That is the theme that came through from the noble the more difficult it will become as that view is entrenched Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours: that our interventions in that generation as they grow older. in recent years have not been manifestly helpful. I say to the Minister that one of the things we ought However, now we face a serious situation. I certainly to be thinking about in our discussions with various do not see our role as military; I see it as humanitarian Arab and Islamic states is how the whole issue of the and advisory in any way that we can to assist a divide between Sunni and Shia can be headed off and response, possibly a United Nations response, to try to brought back to a more unified sense of the religion, bring order and help to what is in danger of becoming accepting that they will never agree on the original a tragic situation. cause of that division. That divide will always be there, as it is for many Christians, with Catholics and Protestants 9.16 pm and so on. In Islam right now, though, that division is getting deeper and it is hard to see how that can be in Lord Soley (Lab): My Lords, I declare my interest any way helpful in the present situation. in the register as a director of the Good Governance Foundation, which operates in the region. I say We ought to look on the terrible situation at the straightaway that I do not think that this is, or should moment as an opportunity. I agree that military be, a debate about the Iraq war of 2003—much as I intervention would not make sense and would not would actually welcome that, and I hope that we get work. I am in favour of military interventions when I time for it. I agree with a lot of what my noble friend am clear about the objectives, but if you are going to Lord Campbell-Savours said; like him, I voted for the intervene militarily, you must have a clear objective. It war but not on the basis of WMD, which I thought is difficult to see what that objective would be in the was an important part of it but not the central part. current situation. That is why you should not do it. 1331 Iraq[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1332

However, we can look at how we can assist in the area. Kingdom can use our limited resources and power in Unless there are groups within ISIL that will take over ways that are most beneficial for our nation, for the the more extremist groups, one hope is that the Sunni Iraqi people and for the region. tribes will rise against that extremism, as they have in I remind noble Lords that since the fall of the the past. There is a real possibility of that. That is Saddam regime, right up until earlier this month when what we ought to be discussing, and if we can assist in ISIS swept into Mosul, the country was making any way, we should do so. remarkable progress. Democratic elections had been I want to say something about the way we use our held not once, not twice but several times. The most power and influence. The noble Lord, Lord Howell, recent was declared by the UN special envoy to Iraq, will know about soft power. We need to readdress it. I Nickolay Mladenov, to have been genuinely free and have worked on and discussed this issue over the years, fair—indeed, they passed of with extremely little incident. and I have found that there is general acceptance that While there is indeed a convincing argument that people would like the rule of law and there is general, Prime Minister Maliki and his predecessors should but not quite so ready, acceptance that they would like have done a lot more to make their Governments democracy. However, in some of the countries in that inclusive, the democratic process was none the less region, democracy is being interpreted as “winner starting to take hold. takes all”. You saw that in Egypt with the Muslim I point out to noble Lords that the system of Brotherhood. That does not justify what the current elections that the United Nations bequeathed to the regime is doing in Egypt, but you could see the problem federal Republic of Iraq was not designed on the as soon as the Muslim Brotherhood took power. European Union model. There is no d’Hondt system You can also see that with the Maliki Government in Baghdad’s electoral commission. In other words, in Iraq. There was a real opportunity. There was the model that was bequeathed was not the first past plenty of pressure from the West generally on Maliki the post model that we the British put in, which was in the early days of his Administration to include the widely praised and liked, but is somehow a halfway Sunnis, but he found that incredibly difficult. I know house. It is not designed to produce a coalition that spokesmen of the Government of Iraq say that Government; it is not designed, as Prime Minister they have Sunnis in the Government and in administration. Maliki said today, to produce the sort of Government Yes, they have some, but it is very clear that an awful that the international community is requesting of him. lot of Sunnis felt excluded. More than that, they felt The system that has been designed has produced an powerless and threatened. If you feel powerless and outcome. Yes, it was democratic; yes, it followed the threatened, you start taking extreme actions. The rules; yes the electoral commission and the United bombings and killings that have taken place in Iraq in Nations—there were no international observers this the past few years are an expression of that, plus the time—declared it to be free and fair. It is neither aggravation of the Sunni/Shia divide. correct nor proper for us now to demand a form of There are some positives here. The rapprochement government that does not fit the model and which between Iran and the United States ought to be built would, therefore, be undemocratic. on, and the involvement of the Sunni tribes might well The 10% growth rate that the country has enjoyed be critical. We also have a role in refining our soft-power over the past few years was based upon the proper approach—if I can use that shorthand way of saying values that were bequeathed in the constitution. This it—in a number of countries. When we talk about the evening, we had the Human Rights Minister speaking rule of law and democracy, we must start focusing at an all-party group, for example. He reassured us—and much more on the recognition that you cannot have a I have seen him and his Ministry in action on the winner-takes-all situation not just in these conflicts ground—that human rights were at the heart of the but in any state. Youmust give something to opposition Government’s policies. I do not pretend, and nor does groups because if you do not, you breed dissent. he, that the implementation of the human rights agenda Indeed, we saw that in Northern Ireland. I remember is absolutely perfect—far from it. However, he has set my early involvement in the 1980s. It was very clear up a human rights institution and has been working that a large section of the community—a minority, incredibly hard to try to make it work; I can prove this but a very important minority—felt discriminated against entirely with my evidence-based knowledge of his and excluded. That was bad enough in Northern work and that of his Ministry. Ireland. In the Middle East, it is deadly. In the justice system, judges are trained by UK judges, no less. Yes, they have been left with a tiny justice system. Nevertheless, the judges have fought 9.23 pm extremely hard to fulfil the requirements of a proper Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne (LD): My Lords, justice system. Indeed, I have been hosting some of as chairman of the AMAR International Charitable them to come and see our own Supreme Court and sit Foundation, the executive chairman of the Iraq Britain in the Old Bailey to understand exactly what they Business Council and the Prime Minister’s trade envoy should do. It is not for want of trying that the justice to Iraq, I have an enormous vested interest in the system has not been fulfilling its potential. Indeed, the country, as noted in the register of Members’ interests, fundamental freedoms, the rule of law and the fight and in the most recent terrible incidents in the region. against corruption, have all been embedded and were I visit the country very regularly, and I have a deep starting to work. commitment to the health, welfare and future of its Iraq’s enormous supply of natural resources has of people. My interest in the debate that the Minister has course played no small part in helping to fuel the initiated this evening is in seeing how we in the United renaissance of the entire country. Here is where Britain’s 1333 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1334

[BARONESS NICHOLSON OF WINTERBOURNE] is, yes, on the military side. It is not for me to say strength has been so obvious. Shell, BP and almost all whether troops should be put anywhere at all, although of the big oil companies are working out of here, I am very sad to see the cuts that have so degraded the including Chevron, Foster Wheeler, Vitol and so on. numbers of troops and the capacity that we have in They have all been working immensely hard, and Shell military, hard-power terms. None the less, with our and BP alone have been producing 80% of the country’s knowledge and the way in which the Iraqis respect GDP. That, I suggest, is one of the big resources and what we have to offer, I would really like to see us do our Government should do all they possibly can, once the same as the USA and at least have military advisers this crisis has passed, to work hard to get the investment in Iraq. of British companies in Iraq. It is not going to be easy to get rid of ISIS. We have The misery at the moment is that all of this good seen in Iraq—and as I said, I have visited the camps, work has been thrown into jeopardy. The gang of for example—hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees thugs, the Islamic extremists that call themselves ISIS, who have been driven out of their country by ISIS and have wreaked havoc in the west and north-west of Iraq al-Qaeda. Now they are inside Iraq, which is a much for some time now. Their brutality is unprecedented, bigger country than Syria and far wealthier. Therefore, even in a country that has seen more than its fair share as ISIS takes over different parts of Iraq, as it has of horror over the past few decades. Their numbers done so successfully, in such a sweeping short moment, have burgeoned; they have grown dramatically. At is Iraq really going to able to sustain the opposition to first, 500 thugs came into Mosul; they are now in their stop the invasion of Baghdad, for example? Our military thousands, and now they have the most enormous advice is sorely needed. It is not for me to say whether sums available to them and are fully and completely or not it should be followed up by something harder, armed. How terrifying for the people of Iraq. We but I am absolutely sure that the Iraqis want our should do all that we possibly can to help. businesses, our military advice and our model of To group back to the theme for a moment of the democracy. Above all else, they want our support and British businesses in Iraq, Iraqis think very highly intervention to help them to regain their balance and indeed of this British resource. They think very highly lead the decent, civilised, normal life that a country of of the quality in our work and of our lack of corruption. their great wealth, history and culture surely deserves. They think very highly of the quality of the people I urge the Government to do all that they can and not that we employ and of our technical abilities and to hold back. Let us not be Johnny-come-lately yet again. innovations. We should do all that we can to satisfy that wish. They want to see British companies in Iraq. 9.35 pm Last month, only four weeks ago, I was able to host Lord Williams of Baglan (CB): My Lords, I welcome 80 Iraqi businesses here in London, in Mansion House. this debate and I am grateful to the noble Baroness for So the synergy is working—the connectivity and the her statement. The situation in Iraq is dangerous and capacity to build partnerships and forge contracts. threatens not only that country but the wider Middle This is the underpinning of the success of Iraq before East and the security of the United Kingdom itself. the ISIS people emerged. ISIS has no place in modern society, and I am confident that other noble Lords In the coming months we will see, I hope, the throughout the debates on Iraq in the coming weeks publication of the Chilcot report. That report will will say categorically that these people will have no assess not just the invasion itself but the aftermath, on link with Islam at all. I doubt that there is any tiny which I will comment because I believe that the occupation shred of knowledge about Islam in their warped brains, of Iraq is responsible for much of the continuing because Muslims are—like Christians and like followers tragedy of that country. We need a clearer understanding of Judaism—people of the book. We share completely of what has happened if we are to find a way forward. common values. Yes, there are customs and practices Essentially, the Iraqi state was gutted and little put that may jar between our three sisters, as it were, of the in its place until late in the occupation, and that action people of the book, the Abrahamic faiths. But let remains at the root of the present crisis. The fate of there be no mistake at all: these values are inherent in Iraq was then surrendered to a US vice-regal all three of the world’s greatest religions. Islam has Administration led by figures who had scarce nothing to do with any of these people. international, let alone Middle Eastern, experience. The immediate difficulty for the people of Iraq is Not only was Saddam deposed but the entire armed how they can survive without international support. forces were dissolved, as well as the ruling Baath Party. Wiser colleagues than me this evening have said no to The only modern historical precedents were the fates this, that and the other, in terms of that international of the German Wehrmacht and the Imperial Japanese support—so what support are we going to give? I Army in 1945 when those militaries were disbanded would suggest that we have to look very carefully at and the two countries occupied by Allied forces. what we can provide. For example, there is the AMAR Incidentally, I once accompanied the then Foreign International Charitable Foundation, which I chair. Secretary, Jack Straw, on a visit to Tehran, where There is simple work—high-quality medical work and President Khatami recommended the fate of the German educational work—in the models offered to us by the army and Germany as a relevant example for Iraq National Health Service and the Department for post-Saddam. Education here. Those models are exemplified in the Even today, 11 years after the invasion, Iraq pays a teaching of the World Health Organisation and UNESCO. considerable price for those unwise decisions. It has We have a huge amount that we can offer to ordinary weaker military capabilities than a smaller neighbour people in Iraq. I suggest that one thing that we can do such as Jordan or even Kuwait. It has no offensive 1335 Iraq[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1336 aircraft with which to stem the threatening advance of contested city of Kirkuk from Iraq’s central government. ISIS. Alone among the Arab states, Iraq has no jet Kurdistan, with diminishing links to Baghdad, is a combat aircraft, although some are now on order state in everything but name. It has its own armed from the United States. The removal of Saddam, a forces and international airport and is now exporting cruel dictator, was followed by the unnecessary and oil directly through the Turkish port of Ceyhan, bypassing foolish destruction of the state, for which the Iraqi any semblance of deference to the Iraqi state. people have paid a terrible price. That state has not Following his visit to Baghdad, Mr Kerry was the been rebuilt. Its weakness, a deliberate action on the first US Secretary of State to visit the Kurdish region part of the occupiers, has prevented the emergence of since Condi Rice in 2006. Greeting Kerry, President a national political narrative and consensus, and has Barzani said that the time was fast approaching for the left Iraq prone to the rampant sectarianism that we see Kurdish people to determine their future—a further all too obviously today. indication that the unity of Iraq is going to be difficult, Despite the endeavours of Secretary of State Kerry if not impossible, to sustain. on his visit to Iraq earlier this week, Prime Minister The spectre before us is that of Iraq disintegrating. Maliki has spoken this afternoon in a television broadcast, In that regard, I conclude by urging the Minister and promising no hope of greater representation in his the Government to call a meeting of the Security Government for members of the minority Sunni Arab Council to discuss a rapidly deteriorating situation in community, whose anger at what they perceive as his Iraq before it is too late. I am very concerned that no sectarian and authoritarian policies has been exploited such meeting has so far taken place. Need I remind by the jihadist elements from the Islamic State in Iraq noble Lords that the United Kingdom is a permanent and the Levant. Mr Maliki claimed that forming an member of the Security Council? That is a privilege emergency Administration that included all religious which comes with considerable obligations to the and ethnic groups would go against April’s parliamentary maintenance of international security, and the United elections and he rejected that in no uncertain terms. Kingdom needs to take action in the Security Council. That is, to say the least, a deeply troubling response to the crisis engulfing Iraq. It offers little hope of 9.43 pm forestalling further violence; rather, it entrenches the Lord Selsdon (Con): My Lords, this has been a sectarianism of the present Iraqi Government. In that fascinating debate for me as I have a long-standing regard I hope there is no question of the UK sending relationship with Iraq due to my former chairmanship military forces to Iraq or joining any potential US of the Middle East trade committee. I was always military action there. I should be grateful if the Minister given the more difficult countries of the world to deal could address that issue. At the same time I urge the with. I thought that was because I was disposable. Government to continue to press Prime Minister Maliki I first went to Iraq in 1974, I think. When I arrived, to see a national coalition as the only response to the I thought that I would visit the British embassy, but threat posed by ISIS. the Iraqis said, “No, don’t go near the British at the Earlier in this Chamber, we discussed the centenary moment. We’re not quite sure what they are up to”. I of the First World War. One of its legacies, the Sykes-Picot replied, “I’m a British citizen”, but they said, “No, agreement between Great Britain and France on the you’re Scottish, it’s not quite the same thing”. Over a future of the post-Ottoman Middle East, finally looks period of time, I went backwards and forwards and to be unravelling. There will, of course, be no formal found, working as I did with the Midland Bank, or interment of an imperial diktat long resented throughout one of the banks within it, that we were the main the region. In practice Syria and Iraq will continue to bankers to Iraq. We all knew each other. When we said have their flags and seats at the UN but perhaps not hello and one asked difficult questions, the Iraqi right much else, aside from capital cities and sectarian support arm would go over its heart, and your guest or friend limited to their core constituencies, the Alawites of would say, “I am not authorised to discuss this at my Syria and the Shia of Iraq. The stunning assault of level”. I would say, “Were you by any chance trained ISIS on northern Iraq last week began with the capture by us at Midland Bank?”. “How did you guess?”, they of Mosul. From there it has swept further south. What would say. This was the rule. There were hierarchies is abundantly clear is that ISIS, whose total forces may and rules. They were trained at Haslemere or another number no more than 5,000, owes much of its success place—I have forgotten where. less to its own military prowess but rather to the Over that period, I would sit with them and discuss collapse of any remaining Sunni support for the what we could do together; but they did not effectively Government of Prime Minister al-Maliki. Paradoxically, trust the British. One of the last times I was there, I Maliki, who is closer to Iran than any Arab country, was with Tariq Aziz, who asked me about Sir Hannay, will rely on the US for any hope of reversing the as he called the noble Lord, Lord Hannay—he could battlefield humiliation or bolstering his fast deteriorating not manage “Sir David Hannay”. He said that he military position. And, in doing so, President Obama’s rather liked Sir Hannay, that he was trustworthy, and Administration would risk further alienating traditional would like to discuss with him that the Iraqis were Sunni allies, such as Saudi Arabia and the Emirates, looking for interlocutors. which have never hidden their contempt for Maliki’s Government. In the discussions there, we looked at Iran’s economic potential in the medium and long term, and of course To compound the success of ISIS in the unravelling it came down to oil. We had the Matrix Churchill of Iraq, Kurdish peshmerga took advantage of last affair, when no one would speak to anyone about week’s mayhem to seize by military means the long anything. However, the banking relationship still went 1337 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1338

[LORD SELSDON] East and could take many more initiatives because I on, and we trained Iraqis, had a great regard for them really believe that we are trusted. What my noble and they honoured every debt. They were accurate in friend Lord Howell said is absolutely true. Unless an all their accounting, and I much appreciate them. I initiative is taken by some country, no one is going to thought that it would be a good idea to dig out some get anywhere. When I went to see some of the people of the papers that we wrote about what could happen, on Chilcot’s team—I thought they might like to look the relationship with Iran, and all these things when, at the papers I had written—they said no, it was not of in the early banking days, we were determined that very much interest. politics and economics were one and the same. If you To me, the future lies in whether we can revitalise got the politics wrong, you would lose money. INOC, the original Iraq National Oil Company. We I looked, therefore, at the future and I dug out all found in those days that there were many buyers and, my papers from before. When we were out there, it was from the latest studies I have done, there are adequate difficult to have official meetings because you needed oil supplies. I feel the Government should take the that strange instrument called “permission to speak”. initiative; I hope that they will. I would support it and I found that rather strange but got that occasionally most of my noble friends who know Iraq would from the Government, so one had a right to go and support it. It is not a matter of being afraid but taking talk frankly. If you were their bankers, their children some initiative at this particular time. were educated in England or Scotland, and you worked together—you trusted them. I trust that economy. I 9.50 pm raised the matter with a few friends the other day and asked why the British were sitting on their whatevers—the Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, due to a lapse in phrase was not too polite. The Iraqis are our friends communications, my name did not appear on the and always have been; we trust them and know where speakers list. I therefore seek leave of the House to we stand with them. At this point, there is an opportunity speak briefly in the gap. to take action. Are we frightened to go there? No, I am It is clear that there can be no military solution to not frightened to go there. I would willingly go there the ghastly problems of Iraq. A political settlement, again tomorrow; I never have been frightened to. however long it takes, and however complicated, will However, the difficulty, once you got caught in the ultimately be essential. Surely we have learnt by now political maelstrom, was that you did not know where that for a settlement to have staying power and mean you were. something for future stability, it must be as inclusive as All the Ministers who I got to know at that time possible and be owned by the parties. The outside have long passed—even the tough ones. However, I world cannot impose a solution. The outside world remember several instances, once with the Oil Minister. certainly has a part to play in facilitating, but we have I asked, “How much oil have you got?”. He said, “You to rid ourselves of this management preoccupation in England should roll up that map of Europe. I will that somehow we can manage the affairs of the area unroll our oil map”. We sat and looked and marked on and then, in effect, impose a solution with which the the map how much oil there was. Then he said, “Come parties would concur. That is not the way to lasting and look here”. He opened another curtain, and through peace and stability. a mirror or a window I saw a whole lot of French With all the horrific reports accumulating, to which people who I had met before in the hotel and were the Minister referred, I can imagine that the pressures negotiating “sanction busting”, I suppose you would for intervention will grow greater and greater. I was call it—oil deals and transactions. very glad indeed to hear my noble friend Lord Campbell- The economy of Iraq, based upon oil is strong. We Savours make the points that he did in a very interesting have a political situation in which it needs a friend. I speech. It seems to me that if there is to be intervention, genuinely believe that the United Kingdom could and several imperatives are necessary. We must have thought should be its best and most trusted friend. I look back through the consequences. We must have exit strategies and think of my grandfather who was director of in place right from the beginning of our planning. We restriction of enemy supplies during the First World also have to be very careful about counterproductivity War, was in the Navy, and was then responsible to and the methodology that we may use, because we some extent for part of the peace process. He pointed have repeatedly underestimated the counterproductivity out that in those days trade was important; the world of collateral damage. We refer to it as collateral damage, should be based upon trade. The Iraqis are great but it is killing innocent people. That builds up tremendous traders. I have no fear of the situation at the moment resentment and plays into the extremists’ hands. but there is an opportunity for this Government—the In anything we do, we must try to uphold the British—to take an initiative. principles of the international rule of law. We can now I did not realise that Tariq Aziz actually played see that that is what went wrong at the beginning of cricket, had been in Wales and was a wicket-keeper. the latest Iraq story. We do not bring the UN in Because I was a wicket-keeper too, instead of discussing because of some formal legal requirement—a specific other things we discussed cricket for a long time. Iraq UN ad hoc Security Council resolution, which is so is a great country and I had discussions there before I important—but because it demonstrates the maximum went to Iran—I was asked if I could help out with that possible amount of international support for what is little difficulty called Salman Rushdie, because we undertaken. That is tremendously important in an were, again, bankers to the Government of Iran, so overheated, emotional situation such as this—that any you could go there unencumbered, without any fear. I action happens in the context of maximised global feel that we have withdrawn a bit from the Middle support. 1339 Iraq[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1340

My last point—if I may make this observation, and the world’s airwaves, yet as soon as a translation appeared, I speak as a former director of Oxfam—is that I hope it was clear that the call to arms was to save Iraq as a that in any humanitarian planning, DfID has consultations country. It discouraged foreign fighters, and it called with a wide range of organisations about what would for self-restraint and for people to refrain from armed be appropriate and how it can best be organised. And activity outside the state’s legal framework —an obvious I conclude with this observation, to which I think my reference to militias. In other words, it was a political, noble friend Lord Soley was referring. Let us not paint not a sectarian, reaction, summed up in the following young impressionable British people who have got quote from that event. The ayatollah strongly advised caught up in this situation into a corner. What is Muslims to, happening is horrific: they should not be there, they “steer clear from sectarian and … nationalistic discourse that is of were wrong. However, if we paint them into a corner, detriment to Iraq’s national unity”. in which we say what they have become and what they Listening to British Iraqis last night at a meeting are likely to do, then they begin acting out the part. It that had been arranged by four noble Lords from seems to me to be tremendously important to have in around the House, the message being relayed in speech mind right from the beginning how we reintegrate after speech, whether made by a Shia, a Sunni or a such people into society, and not just because of the Christian—there was a Christian Assyrian there—or dangers they pose, which of course are there. In that even by a Kurd was the same. Very briefly, it was this: context, what is tremendously important is holding extremism was unacceptable and ISIL must be fought the good will of the ethnic communities here. It should in order to save Iraq. That was put best by someone be an essential part of our approach that we do not who said, “This is a war of all Iraqis against ISIL”. alienate the ethnic communities by language but keep Of concern, of course, to all is the fact that British them on board in playing a part in finding a way youths have been persuaded in some cases to fight forward. in Syria and, now, in Iraq. Our response, as has been made clear around the House this evening, must be clear 9.54 pm and resolute. It represents a real danger to the kind of tolerant, diverse society that we all want to live in. Given Lord Bach (Lab): My Lords, we very much welcome the article in the Financial Times last Monday, the this debate and congratulate the Government on arranging emphasis of the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister it. Of course, it is unfortunate that it is being taken on this, and the Minister’s department’s key role in as last business, but what it may lack in quantity it collecting names and other vital tasks, why is there a certainly makes up for in quality. From this side, we 50% cut from £30 million per year to £15 million a thank all speakers for their contributions, and I give year in the FCO’s counterterrorism unit? The Financial my personal thanks to the Minister for setting up a Times referred to 35 out of 85 staff posts. Surely if briefing day for the Opposition Front Bench. I am ever there was a time not to make that particular cut, it very grateful to her. is now. Will the Minister comment on that in her I will concentrate on Iraq, and specifically Iraq summing up? today. It will come as no surprise that in general Her Whether the response to ISIL is sectarian or political, Majesty’s Opposition agree with the Government’s or whether it is impossible to make such a division, what policy as it has emerged as a result of the present crisis is clear is the significance of the holy sites within Iraq’s in Iraq. We have some questions and some proposals—that borders, currently threatened by ISIL. A statement is the job of an opposition in a functioning democracy— published by ISIL itself explicitly states its intention but, for the moment, we are happy to give our support to reach the cities of Karbala and Najaf, which are the to the general direction of government policy. homes of extremely holy shrines. These sites are respected We of course condemn ISIL, whose medieval by the Iraqi community as a whole, and are the epicentre barbarism, mixed with a certain sophistication in the of the Shia community around the world. Any serious use of modern technology, is deeply offensive to all civilised action by ISIS to actively reach these places will people. Its ruthlessness is shocking and it must not prevail. undoubtedly have serious consequences, not only in However, it is incumbent on all of us to understand Iraq and the Middle East, of course, but for Muslims what we are dealing with—the context in which ISIL in all corners of the world. That could result not only has made its advances and its weaknesses and strengths— in a sectarian war on a large scale in Iraq but the military before we resolve how best to counter it. intervention of other countries. Here, of course, one Things are far from clear—it is not always easy to thinks of Iran which has itself vowed to protect these know the facts. That is certainly not to question the holy sites. This whole right to freedom of religion is part bravery of individuals journalists, and I hope that of our duty to safeguard. It also includes the protection some other noble Lords may have been fortunate of places of worship which are in danger. We have all enough to see the video on Twitter of the BBC journalist heard of reports detailing the destruction of mosques, Paul Wood and his cameraman under fire for many churches and heritage sites in ISIS-controlled areas. minutes in Jalula, the fire coming of course from ISIL. We know that while ISIL may be an extreme Sunni One can only wonder at the journalists’ courage, but movement it does not enjoy universal Sunni support. of course much remains unclear. While ruthless force of arms by ISIL, linked with the A good example of that is the misreporting of the severe disillusion with the Maliki Government, has extremely influential Ayatollah Sistani when he spoke certainly combined to make ISIL’s advance much easier, on 13 June. This was at first described as a call to arms it is hard to believe videos, for example, that show for Shia to fight Sunni. This interpretation—hardly ISIL massacring police in Tikrit. Many of those police surprisingly, given the significance of the ayatollah—swept were Sunnis. It is also hard to believe the basic enmity 1341 Iraq[LORDS] Iraq 1342

[LORD BACH] The strong view that I hear from the House is that that exists—this was said in the debate—between Baathists military intervention is not the solution. I can reassure and ISIL, seemingly friends now. Surely that must the noble Lord, Lord Williams, specifically, and other result in a turning at some stage against ISIL and its noble Lords, that the UK is not planning a military ways. One must ask the question: if this is a majority intervention. However, we are looking urgently at other Sunni view why did so many hundreds of thousands ways to help—for example, through counterterrorism of Sunnis flee when ISIL came to do its worst? expertise—and work is already under way on that. The world is waiting for this new Government in There was, however, strong support for the UK to Baghdad—there is no doubt about that—following provide humanitarian assistance. As my noble friend the elections in April. The results, as we have heard, Lady Nicholson said, that is one of the ways in which were certified by the supreme court. This time it will we can help. The initial package of UK support included not be acceptable to the Iraqi people to have a long funding for basic requirements—clean water, sanitation, delay of eight or 10 months, as in 2010, before the medicine, hygiene kits, household items and, in particular, Government are formed. Prime Minister Maliki’s support for vulnerable girls and women through the comments today are disappointing. It is essential that deployment of dedicated UN safety and welfare teams whoever leads the Government must ensure that in key internally displaced persons refugee camp sites immediate steps are taken to be more inclusive and and other areas. The second package of support was more sympathetic to minorities in Iraq. It is not just a for emergency medicines, including vaccinations, and question of sharing out titles to individuals for particular basic shelter. It also enabled aid agencies on the ground jobs; it is much more a driving sense of purpose that to trace and reunite families who had been separated Iraq is worth saving and that its diversity should be a while fleeing from the violence. I can assure the noble strength, not a weakness. Lord, Lord Judd, that we also continue to work within This is a critical moment. We must stand ready to the UN Security Council to help the wider international continue humanitarian assistance of course, and to response and the organisation of it. offer advice certainly. To argue that it is none of Britain’s business is crass and wrong. Not only are The UN special representative for Iraq was clear to some British citizens involved in both Syria and Iraq, the Security Council only yesterday about the urgency there are thousands of Iraqi British who, we must of further humanitarian need and how the crisis could never forget, live and work here. Above all, of course, develop, and of the need for Iraq’s politicians therefore are the consequences for this country and the wider to address the immediate challenges. world of a barbaric, ruthless organisation such as The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and my noble friend ISIL being allowed to succeed. Lord King referred to the role of the UN. This is an issue of great concern for the UK and other members of the Security Council and we are considering how 10.05 pm the UN can play a bigger role. The UN announced Baroness Warsi: My Lords, I am grateful for the yesterday that it was extending its humanitarian appeal many well informed and eloquent contributions to as a start. I pay tribute to the United Nations assistance today’s debate and thankful to the Benches opposite mission to Iraq which is in the country. for their support at this difficult time. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and my noble friend As has been reflected in the contributions today, Lord King welcomed the reopening of the embassy in the events in Iraq over the past fortnight have shocked Iran. As I said in my opening remarks, the Foreign and alarmed the international community. I am grateful Secretary has discussed the situation with the Iranian for the way in which a number of noble Lords, including Foreign Minister and several other Foreign Ministers the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and my noble in the region because they have an important role to friends Lord Howell and Lady Falkner, have analysed play. the current situation and for their reasoning on how we find ourselves here. The contribution of my noble My noble friend Lord Howell talked about the friend Lord Selsdon was particularly fascinating. vulnerability of Lebanon and Jordan. It is right to say A number of noble Lords, including the noble that instability in Syria and Iraq has implications for Lord, Lord Williams, and my noble friend Lord King, regional security in those countries. We are already spoke of the 2003 Iraq war. My views on the 2003 providing significant support to them both and we will invasion are clear and on record. I was against the continue to keep under review what further assistance intervention. However, I do not think that today is a we can provide. moment to reiterate the arguments for and against I want to pay particular tribute to the work of my and, on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government, I will noble friend Lady Nicholson. Her commitment to not comment on the specific issues around the 2003 Iraq as a trade envoy and through the AMAR Foundation invasion until Sir John Chilcot’s Iraq inquiry has clearly shows her deep links with the country, and of reported. course her expertise is based upon them. It was right It is important that I should say—I have said it of my noble friend to note our strong commercial before—that not everything in foreign policy can be links with Iraq and the contribution made by British reduced to the simplistic analysis that it is all the fault businesses. It was also correct to draw to our attention of western action or inaction. The events of last week the importance of the rule of law, which the Iraqi need to be set in the context of both the internal Government must restore, as well as ensuring that tensions in Iraq, which have increased in recent years, those who have been responsible for human rights and the regional developments over the past few years. abuses are brought to account. 1343 Iraq[25 JUNE 2014] Iraq 1344

The noble Lord, Lord Williams, referred specifically The noble Lord, Lord Bach, referred specifically to to Nouri al-Maliki’s comments about the emergency the FCO counterterrorism budget. I think it is misleading unity Government. Although the Prime Minister ruled to say that the FCO has cut its counterterrorism out an emergency unity Government, he did confirm budget in half. The counterterrorism programme fund support for the process of government formation following has been reducing and some of that money has been the elections in April. We have to continue to support directed to other programmes within the FCO. We the process and make sure that it happens quickly. take an overall approach to how we can best assist a I specifically raised this matter with Mohammed Shia’ country, and it may well be that other programmes can al-Sudani, the Minister for Human Rights, who is support the kind of work that was being done previously. today in the United Kingdom, and I stressed the need We see it as one budget that provides assistance to for a unity Government to be formed quickly. The foreign countries. I can assure him that, on the issue of noble Lord, Lord Soley, also talked about inclusive fighters travelling from Britain to fight in Iraq and government. As I said earlier, there has to be a political Syria, only last week I convened and chaired a meeting solution alongside efforts to deal with the current where both the Home Office and the Foreign Office security situation. This is our clear message and we are were represented. It looked specifically at the appropriate taking every opportunity to reinforce it with Ministers responses required to deter young people from travelling, in Iraq. Moreover, it is important to reinforce it not which of course is part of the wider CT work. only with Iraqi politicians, but more widely through the region, and to ask other regional Ministers to play Lord Campbell-Savours: Will the Minister place in a supportive role. the Library a letter setting out exactly what the position My noble friend Lord King and others mentioned is in terms of that budget and where it might have been Kurdistan. My noble friend will be aware that the diverted to, so that we can examine the extent to which United Kingdom and Kurdistan have a strong and these areas are being covered? positive relationship, which was described by a number of noble Lords in the debate. Only last month the Prime Minister of Kurdistan made an official visit to Baroness Warsi: That is an important question and this country. I pay tribute to the response that the a good suggestion. I will certainly do that. country has made to the humanitarian situation since As many of your Lordships have stressed, ISIL so many have fled to that region. We believe that presents a major challenge to Iraq, to the region and co-operation between the Kurdish region and the to the international community. Tackling this challenge Government in Baghdad is one of the vital elements is the responsibility of the Iraqi Government. In the of finding a political solution in Iraq. The noble Lord, immediate term, that requires a coherent security response. Lord Campbell-Savours, referred to the economy of However, as the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Kurdistan. He was right to remind us of the success of Lord Soley, said, tackling this challenge in the long the region. Further to that, I would like to remind the term will require a much more inclusive political approach House of the economic success of Iraq, to which my within Iraq—again, I stressed that to Iraq’s Human noble friend also referred. The growth rate is 10%, Rights Minister, Mohammed al-Sudani, earlier today. which should remind us of the fact that the country We have called for the new Parliament to convene has great potential and is hugely wealthy in resources quickly and for a new Government to be formed as which can be used to improve the lives of all Iraqis, soon as possible following the constitutional process. but only if they feel that they have a voice in the That Government must be inclusive and find a way of political process of the country. addressing the needs of all Iraq’s communities so as to The noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Soley, expressed ensure a unified approach against ISIL’s threat. their concerns about British fighters. As I have said, The UK will support that process where we can. We there is no doubt that the Government are prepared to will continue to focus on preventing terrorist threats to take action to protect the UK’s national security by our country and our interests, and we will continue to confiscating passports and thus not allowing people to provide humanitarian support to those who have been travel, and through prosecutions. Of course we want affected by ISIL’s violence. Once again, I thank all to dissuade people from travelling to these areas of noble Lords for taking part in tonight’s debate. conflict in the first place. I take on board the view that we must do this by using language and through policy responses which ensure that we do not alienate any of Motion agreed. our own minority communities. They are part of the solution to the challenges we face. House adjourned at 10.17 pm.

WS 115 Written Statements[25 JUNE 2014] Written Statements WS 116

Achievement at school is the strongest determinant Written Statements of a child’s future earnings. Pupils who achieve 5 A* to C grades at GCSE earn on average 10% more than Wednesday 25 June 2014 those who do not. However the Sutton Trust have suggested there is a 19 month gap at the start of school between the most and least disadvantaged children. Banking: Reform These gaps persist and widen throughout a child’s life. Statement Research also shows that children from disadvantaged backgrounds can benefit the most from receiving a high quality early education. The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord The New Early Years Pupil Premium Deighton) (Con): My honourable friend the Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Andrea Leadsom) has today The aim of the Early Years Pupil Premium is to made the following Written Ministerial Statement. close the gap between children from disadvantaged backgrounds and their peers by providing funding to In March 2014 the Government published a early years providers to help them raise the quality of consultation, Speeding up cheque payments: legislating their provision. for cheque imaging, which set out proposed legislation for the introduction of cheque imaging in the United All children aged three- and four are already entitled Kingdom. Cheque imaging is an innovation that speeds to 15 hours a week of funded early education, for up cheque clearing times through the sending of a 38 weeks of the year (570 hours/year). The Early Years digital image of the cheque for clearing, rather than Pupil Premium will complement that entitlement by the original paper instrument itself. Cheque imaging providing nurseries, schools and other providers of enables a wide range of benefits to be delivered to government funded early education with an additional consumers, businesses and the banking industry. It £300 a year for each eligible child accessing the full will speed up clearing times, increase customer 570 hours with them. We estimate that over 170,000 convenience, deliver operational efficiencies and help children could benefit from the Early Years Pupil challenger banks to compete with incumbents. Premium in 2015-16. Separately in December 2013 the Government Providers will be funded for the Early Years Pupil published a consultation, Competition in banking: Premium along with their existing early education improving access to SME credit data which set out its funding. We are also publishing today indicative local proposal to require banks to share information on authority funding allocations for the Premium. their SME customers with other lenders through Credit The consultation document seeks views from Reference Agencies. The proposals will help small professionals, parents and other interested parties on businesses access the finance they need to grow by our proposals for the implementation of the Early opening up access to the credit data that the major Years Pupil Premium. We propose that banks hold on their SME customers to other banks I. Those from low income families, children in care and finance providers. The proposals are intended to or children adopted from care should be eligible make it easier for SMEs to seek loans from a lender for the Early Years Pupil Premium; other than their bank by improving the ability of II. Providers are best placed to know how support challenger banks and alternative finance providers to their disadvantaged pupils with the Early Years make accurate SME risk assessments and lending Pupil Premium and so should have the freedom to decisions. decide how it is spent. The Government is publishing responses to both consultations today, alongside introducing legislation III. Ofsted will hold providers to account for how in the Small Business, Enterprise and Employment they’ve used the Early Years Pupil Premium to Bill to allow for the introduction of cheque imaging in support their disadvantaged children through the the UK and to improve access to SME credit data. regular inspection process; I am placing copies of these documents in the Participation Funding for Early Learning for Two- Libraries of both Houses. Year-Olds In September 2013 the entitlement to early education was extended to the 20 per cent least advantaged Education: Early Years two-year-olds, and from September 2014 it will be extended further to the 40 per cent least advantaged Statement two-year-olds. The Early Years Pupil Premium will close the gap at ages three and four between the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools additional support disadvantaged children get at age (Lord Nash) (Con): My right honourable Friend the two through the new free entitlement and the additional Minister of State for Schools (David Laws) made the support they get in school through the school-age following announcement: Today, we are publishing a Pupil Premium. consultation document setting out our proposals for The consultation also covers moving funding of the the implementation of two key changes to early years free entitlement for two year olds onto a stable, long funding in 2015-16: the introduction of the Early term footing by introducing participation-based funding Years Pupil Premium for disadvantaged three- and from 2015-16. This will mirror the way that the three- four-year-olds and moving to “participation funding” and four-year-old entitlements are funded. This means for disadvantaged two-year-olds. that we will fund local authorities according to the WS 117 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 118 actual numbers of eligible two-year-olds taking up a further on the best mechanism to tackle avoidance place. We recognise local authorities’ concern that we of the ban and the issue of redress should this law use the most up-to-date data to determine funding in be broken. the first year of participation-based funding. We are • Government will now work with business therefore proposing to use two data collections rather representatives and unions to develop a code of than one in 2015-16 to help us to do this. practice on the fair use of zero hours contracts; The Early YearsPupil Premium and the two-year-old and entitlement both only apply in England. • Government will also work with interested parties to review existing guidance and improve information Employment: Zero-hours Contracts available to individuals and employers on using Statement these contracts. These measures will allow individuals on zero hour contracts to seek additional work, if they choose to, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and ensure that no employer can tie down an individual for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger when they make no reciprocal commitment to provide of Leckie) (Con): My hon Friend the Parliamentary that individual with any guaranteed work. Under Secretary of State for Employment Relations and Consumer Affairs (Jenny Willott) has today made the following statement. Last summer, the Coalition Government conducted EU: Energy Council an informal information-gathering exercise on zero Statement hours contracts in response to concerns about abuse of these contracts by a small number of employers. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Following that review, on 19 December 2013 the of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): Government launched a public consultation on zero My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for hours contracts. The consultation closed on 19 March Energy and Climate Change (Edward Davey MP) has and received a record number of responses—over made the following Written Ministerial Statement. 36,000. Responses came from businesses of all sizes, charities and social enterprises, unions, union I am writing to report discussions at the Energy representatives and individuals. Council in Luxembourg on 13 June, where I represented the UK. We sought views on a number of issues including banning exclusivity clauses in zero hours contracts, Under the first item on the agenda the Council whether a code of practice should be introduced covering reached political agreement on the Greek Presidency’s the fair use of exclusivity clauses in zero hours contracts compromise text on the Proposal to amend the Renewable and these contracts generally and how useful respondents Energy Directive and the Directive relating to the found existing information, advice and guidance on quality of petrol and diesel fuels. The proposal is these contracts. The consultation found: intended to address Indirect Land Use Change (ILUC), which occurs when production of biofuels from crops • The overwhelming majority of respondents, 83% grown on existing agricultural land results in the of responses, supported a ban on exclusivity displacement of production on to previously uncultivated clauses in zero hours contracts. land. • Many respondents felt that a code of practice I and several Member States voted in favour while focusing solely on the fair use of exclusivity clauses indicating disappointment with the agreement’s lack would not go far enough to tackle potential abuses. of ambition. Other Member States made a statement They wanted Government to develop a code of that the cap on first generation biofuels must not be practice covering all aspects of the fair use of zero lowered from 7% during negotiations with the European hours contracts. Parliament. While the UK has consistently argued for • In relation to the quality of existing information, a 5% cap on the contribution from food-based biofuels advice and guidance on these contracts, 42% of and the introduction of ILUC factors and considers it respondents said the current guidance was “Not regrettable that the cap on food crops in the Council Helpful”. Only 14% said they found existing proposal is as high as 7%, we supported the compromise guidance “Very Helpful”. This clearly demonstrates package as it represented the best compromise possible that more should be done in this area. and is preferable to the status quo that would place no As a result, today, through the Small Business, restriction on the expansion of food based fuels. Enterprise and Employment Bill, we will be introducing This discussion was followed by a policy debate on legislation which stops abuses of vulnerable workers the follow-up to the March European Council. The who work under zero hours contracts: debate covered the three linked issues of European • We will be banning the use of exclusivity clauses energy security, the internal energy market and the in contracts which do not guarantee any hours. 2030 climate and energy framework. The Greek Presidency This will ensure that individuals will be free to look opened the debate by asking Member States for their for work elsewhere to help boost their income if priorities under the three issues. Commissioner Oettinger they so wish. spoke to advocate the prioritisation of a smaller number • We will also be introducing provisions via the Bill of Projects of Common Interest to help the most which provide a power which will allow avoidance vulnerable Member States and a new interconnection of this ban to be dealt with. We will be consulting target of 15%. WS 119 Written Statements[25 JUNE 2014] Written Statements WS 120

I proposed that the June European Council should Last month, the government announced that the focus on short-term measures to address energy security Small Business, Enterprise and Employment Bill will and to prepare for potential disruptions this winter. I include legislative provisions to ensure exit payments and a number of other Member States also called for are recovered when high earners return to the same decisions on energy security and the 2030 climate and part of the public sector within twelve months of energy framework to be taken in parallel by the European leaving. These provisions will mean individuals are not Council. Some Member States asked for decisions on over-compensated and will ensure value for money for energy security to be prioritised at the June European the tax payer. The intention is to underpin consistency Council. There was some support for the Commission’s and fairness across the whole of the public sector. proposal for a 15% interconnection target but others HM Treasury is today launching a consultation on expressed caution, noting that it could impose additional the “Recovery of Public Sector Exit Payments”, seeking costs on consumers. views on the proposed changes. The consultation has I with a number of Member States supported the been published online https://www.gov.uk/government/ proposal to prioritise a small number of key infrastructure consultations/recovery-of-public-sector-exit- projects to help the most vulnerable regions. Some payments. It closes on 17 September 2014. Member States noted that prioritisation of infrastructure The government welcomes responses and will give projects should not be at the expense of other energy careful consideration to these before taking a final infrastructure priorities such as addressing energy isolation decision. and the exploitation of indigenous resources in the Eastern Mediterranean. A number of Member States noted the importance Regional Growth Fund of energy efficiency to the 2030 and energy security strategies. Statement Ministers adopted conclusions on energy prices, competitiveness and vulnerable consumers without The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department discussion. for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger There was a second debate on international relations, of Leckie) (Con): My Rt hon Friend the Minister of focusing on the value of multilateral energy frameworks State for Business and Energy (Michael Fallon) has (such as the Energy Charter Treaty, the Energy today made the following statement. Community Treaty and the International Energy Agency). I regret that there was an administrative error in my The Greek Presidency emphasised the importance of Written Ministerial statement on 19 June 2014 (Official developments in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Report: Column 88WS). The Regional Growth Fund contributions that gas supplies in the region can make (RGF) Round 6 dedicated Expression of Interest day to energy security in the EU. The Commission focused will not be taking place in Sheffield on 28 July but will on the Energy Community and the role that it can play instead be held at— in the energy security of the European neighbourhood. Alexandra House, Lawnswood Business Park, Leeds, Over lunch, Commissioner Oettinger updated Ministers LS16 6QY on the energy situation in Ukraine. The Leeds event will start at 10:00 on 28 July. Public Sector: Exit Payments In addition, due to demand, we have added an extra Statement dedicated Expression of Interest day in Yorkshire and Humber. This will be held in Kingston-upon-Hull on The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord 18 July. Deighton) (Con): My right honourable friend the Chief More details on how to register for these two sessions Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander) has today or any of the events we are running across England in made the following Written Ministerial Statement. July and August are available at www.bis.gov.uk/rgf

WA 155 Written Answers[25 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 156

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Written Answers and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Wednesday 25 June 2014 Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): As set out in the public document “UK Activities in Burma”, published in April 2014 (available on our website at: https://www.gov.uk/ Apprentices government/publications/uk-activities-in-burma),theforemost Question Government priority is to encourage and support Burma Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans to become a more effectively governed and democratic state, holding credible elections in 2015. Ministers and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their our Ambassador in Rangoon regularly discuss with commitment to making better apprenticeship data the Burmese government the prospects for meaningful available will involve publishing the retention rate constitutionalchangewhichwillenablethe2015parliamentary of apprentices as employees by company and by elections to reflect the views of the Burmese people, occupational sector. [HL279] including their choice of president. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): There are no right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) plans to publish Retention Rate data for Apprenticeships (MrHague),raisedBurma’sprogresstowardsdemocratisation by company name or occupational sector. with the Burmese Foreign Minister on 28 April. The The Apprenticeship Evaluation: Learners research Minister of State for Foreign and Commonwealth report provides high level information on Apprenticeship Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for East completers who remain in employment. I attach a Devon (Mr Swire), most recently discussed these issues copy of the report. A copy of the report is also with the Burmese Deputy Foreign Minister on 12 June, available at: and our Ambassador discussed the elections with Minister https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/ of the President’s Office, U Soe Thane, on 17 June. uploads/attachment_data/file/229998/bis-13-1126- apprenticeship-evaluation-learners.pdf In addition, information on learning outcomes is China published on the Further education (FE) choices website Question to help better inform learner choices, and is available Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth at: http://fechoices.skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk To ask Her Majesty’s Government what outcomes they anticipate from the visit of Premier Li Keqiang Aviation of China. [HL380] Question Asked by Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Premier Li Keqiang’s the Written Answer by Baroness Kramer on 12 March visit to the UK for the UK-China Summit has brought (WA375), in relation to the United Kingdom general our two countries closer together in a partnership for aviation sector, what action has been taken to ensure growth, reform and innovation. During the visit, £14 billion cross-party co-operation and support for the Civil of trade and investment deals were signed between UK Aviation Authority in encouraging the growth of a and Chinese firms. London’s position as the leading vibrant United Kingdom general aviation sector. offshore Renminbi (RMB) trading hub was strengthened [HL265] by the appointment of China Construction Bank as an RMB clearing bank in London. Premier Li’s visit has The Minister of State, Department for Transport also deepened our co-operation on innovation, as well (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The Government and Civil as on key global issues including through a landmark Aviation Authority are taking forward a programme Joint Statement on Climate Change and through positive of work aimed at encouraging the growth of a vibrant discussions with the Prime Minister, my right hon. general aviation sector. This has involved consultation Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), on key with a wide range of stakeholders. My Noble Friend, foreign policy issues such as Iraq and Ukraine. Lord Rotherwick, secured a Question for Short Debate on the regulation of general aviation on 21 January 2014 [Official Report, column GC319], at which there Contraceptives was wide support for our programme of work. Questions Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton Burma Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in each year since 2010, what was the (1) total number of, and Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (2) net ingredient cost of, each type of contraceptive To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and contraceptive device dispensed in (a) community have made any representations to the government clinics, and (b) general practice, in each clinical of Burma regarding that country’s presidential commissioning group and local authority area in elections; and if so, what representations. [HL379] England. [HL474] WA 157 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 158

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department programme of quality assurance; and £1.2 million for of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): Information is not held 3 years from 2012 to improve services for young people centrally on the numbers or cost of contraceptives suffering sexual violence in major urban areas. supplied direct to patients through community clinics The Home Office also provides over £900,000 per or general practices. year to support the following freephone national helplines: Asked by Baroness Gould of Potternewton the National Stalking Helpline which offers information and advice to stalking victims; the National Domestic To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in each year Violence Helpline which offers support for victims of since 2010, how many prescriptions were written domestic violence and is run jointly by Women’s Aid for (1) oral contraceptives, (2) intrauterine systems and Respect; Broken Rainbow which offers help to for the purpose of contraception, (3) contraceptive lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender victims; the injections, (4) contraceptive sub-dermal implants, Male Advice (and Enquiry) Line which offers help to (5) emergency hormonal contraceptives, and (6) male victims of domestic violence and advice to intrauterine devices for the purpose of emergency perpetrators; and RESPECT which offers information contraception, in each clinical commissioning group and advice to people who are abusive towards their area. [HL475] partners and want help to stop. Decisions about the provision of refuge accommodation for victims of domestic abuse are a Earl Howe: Information is not collected centrally local matter and it is the responsibility of the individual on the number of prescriptions written. However, local authority to identify any gaps in service provision information is available on the number of prescription and put in place appropriate solutions to address this. items dispensed. We would expect local authorities to build services A series of tables representing the four financial based on the needs of their communities, taking account years 2010-11 to 2013-14, have been placed in the of locally available data sources. Library. These provide information on each of the Asked by Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean categories of contraceptives requested, apart from intrauterine devices for the purpose of emergency To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much of contraception, as information is not held on whether the £40 million ring-fenced funding for specialist intrauterine devices are for emergency or non-emergency domestic and sexual violence services will be allocated use, however, totals for all intrauterine devices are to the Department of Health, and how much to the included within the category of intrauterine systems Department for Education. [HL324] for the purpose of contraception. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what particular The tables are based on ePACT data, representing projects under the Department of Health and the prescriptions written in England and dispensed in the Department for Education will be funded in the current community in the United Kingdom. This does not spending review period as a result of the allocation include supply through community clinics. Information of £40 million for specialist domestic and sexual is not available for Q1 of 2010. Commissioning care violence services. [HL326] group areas were formed in April 2013. Information prior to this time is in the form of primary care trusts. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Over the spending review Contraceptives are defined products listed within British period the £40 million ring-fenced funding for specialist National Formulary (BNF) Section 7.3 Contraceptives. domestic and sexual violence services consists of £28 million allocated by the Home Office. This funding is provided directly to local areas not other government Crimes of Violence departments and is used to support independent domestic Questions violence advisors, independent sexual violence advisers, and Multi-Agency Risk Assessment Conference Asked by Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean co-ordinators. £900,000 a year is used towards the running costs of national helplines for victims of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what projects domestic violence and stalking. other than refuges for women who are the victims The Ministry of Justice contribution of £12 million of sexual violence will be set up by the Home Office is used to fund 78 local rape support schemes. with the £28 million for the spending review period allocated by the Home Office for specialist domestic and sexual violence services. [HL325] Diabetes Question The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Asked by Baroness Masham of Ilton Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): Over the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps spending review period the Home Office funding of they are taking to ensure that people with diabetes £28million provides for: are able to access innovative medicines. [HL399] 144 Independent Domestic Violence Advisers and 75 funded IDVAtraining places; 87 dedicated Independent The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Sexual Violence Advisers; 54 Multi-Agency Risk of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): We want to ensure that Assessment Conference co-ordinators and funding to patients, including those with diabetes, have access to Co-ordinated Action Against Domestic Abuse to provide new and effective treatments on terms that represent support and advice to MARACs, as well as running a value to the National Health Service and the taxpayer. WA 159 Written Answers[25 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 160

The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence In March 2011 the Government published Working (NICE) has recommended a number of medicines for for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Equality: diabetes. National Health Service commissioners are Moving Forward; and in December 2011 Advancing legally required by regulations to fund those medicines transgender equality: a plan for action both of which recommended by NICE in its technology appraisal set out the actions to be taken across Government to guidance. enhance equality for transgendered individuals. Actions included the Department for Work and Pensions and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs improving the Gender Recognition experiences of transgender people seeking work. These include providing employers with help on employing Questions transgender people and ensuring training is available Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath to Jobcentre Plus staff on the specific challenges faced by transgender people. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Asked by Baroness Thornton they have taken to address transgender patient discrimination in the National Health Service. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment [HL342] they have made of the feasibility of issuing non- gender-specific official documents to people who To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action do not identify as a particular gender. [HL373] they are taking to support transgender people’s mental health and wellbeing. [HL343] Baroness Northover: Under UK law only male or female is recognised as a gender. We recognise that a very small number of people consider themselves to be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of neither gender. We are not aware that that results in of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): We expect people with any specific detriment, and it is not Government policy transgender issues to have the same access to National to identify such people for the purpose of issuing Health Service treatment, including mental health services, non-gender-specific official documents. as anybody else in the population. Mental Health has been a priority for this Government for several years A specific review on gender markings in the British now. We made this commitment explicit in the Health passport was carried out by Her Majesty’s Passport and Social Care Act 2012 which, for the first time, Office, which has been placed in the Library of both creates equal status for mental and physical health Houses. The review concluded that there would be no across Government and for the NHS and social care. significant advantages to including a non-gender category along with male and female. Since April 2013, gender identity services have been commissioned by NHS England. NHS England will continue to work with the transgendered community, Homelessness clinical experts and stakeholders through the clinical Question reference group for gender identity services, to produce Asked by Baroness King of Bow a single and consistent policy for the whole of England. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to In order to ensure equitable access to services, an the Written Answer by Baroness Stowell of Beeston England-wide Interim Protocol was consulted on, on 6 May (WA 384), when they expect to receive the developed and became operational on 1 November report of the review being carried out by Social 2013. The Protocol is based on the previously published Finance into innovative models of providing temporary and well received Scottish Protocol. The Protocol accommodation for homeless families. [HL335] relies on the publication of the Inter-Collegiate “Good practice guidelines for the treatment of adults with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department gender dysphoria” published at the end of October for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell 2013. A fully consulted policy document and service of Beeston) (Con): A final report from Social Finance specifications will be published during 2014. has been received. The report will be published in due In addition, NHS England has commissioned a course and I will write to the Noble Lady with a copy review of transgendered patients’ access to the NHS. when it is available. This review has considered all aspects of access to NHS services and is currently being finalised in readiness Homosexuality for publishing. Question Asked by Baroness King of Bow Asked by Lord Black of Brentwood To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to they are taking to tackle employment discrimination the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 6 May (WA358), amongst transgender people. [HL369] whether they are considering introducing legislation to prevent the practice of reparative or conversion therapy on homosexual men and women. [HL294] Baroness Northover (LD): The Government is strongly committed to advancing equality for transgender people The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and ending discrimination in the workplace. The Equality of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): This Government does Act 2010 provides protection from discrimination because not believe that being lesbian, gay or bisexual is an of gender reassignment in employment. illness to be treated or cured. We have no current plans WA 161 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 162 to ban or restrict conversion therapy via legislation as Iran we do not feel this would be an effective preventive Questions measure. We do, however, fully recognise the importance of Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans this issue. Therefore, the Minister of State for Care To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and Support, Norman Lamb, convened a roundtable plan to make representations to the government of with professional bodies and charities in February of Iran about the events in Evin Prison on 17 April; this year to discuss collaborative measures to help and, if so, when. [HL355] prevent the use of such therapies. The Department continues to work with these organisations.

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities House of Lords: Access and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Question Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Government was disturbed by reports of physical violence against political Asked by Lord Trefgarne prisoners in Evin prison on 17 April 2014. We have been concerned about prison conditions in Iran for To ask the Chairman of Committees what are some time and set out our views formally in the Foreign the arrangements for access to the House of Lords and Commonwealth Office’s 2014 Human Rights report. during weekends and other quiet periods; and whether The UK has been a strong supporter of the UN there are any plans to change them. [HL431] Special Rapporteur for human rights in Iran, Dr Shaheed, and successfully lobbied for the extension of his mandate The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel): Members in 2014. have access to the House of Lords estate 24 hours a In March, Dr Shaheed reported that conditions for day, including during weekends. Outside regular hours prison inmates range from poor to inhumane, access (advertised in the Handbook on facilities and services to medical services is often limited, and hygiene and for Members and their staff), Members may gain nutrition are poor. The UK works closely with access to the estate by use of their electronic pass at international human rights bodies and partners to Carriage Gates. encourage Iran to engage seriously on human rights issues. The UK’s non-resident Charge d’Affaires also raised human rights with a range of Iranian government House of Lords: Security officials during his visit to Iran in March. Question Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask the Chairman of Committees , further to will make representations to the government of the Written Answer by the Chairman of Committees Iran for an independent international inquiry into on 18 June (WA 67), whether decisions to make new the events at Evin Prison in Tehran on 17 April. policing contract arrangements in 2015 arose from [HL356] dissatisfaction with the manner and efficiency of the present arrangements; how many existing police officers will be removed from security duties on the Baroness Warsi: The Government was disturbed by Parliamentary estate after March 2015; and what reports of physical violence against political prisoners financial savings are envisaged. [HL545] in Evin prison on 17 April 2014. We have been concerned about prison conditions in Iran for some time and set The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel): The out our views formally in the Foreign and Commonwealth arrangements for policing and security on the Office’s 2014 Human Rights report. The UK has been Parliamentary Estate needed to be renewed because a strong supporter of the UN Special Rapporteur for the current contract with the Metropolitan Police human rights in Iran, Dr Shaheed, and successfully Service expires in March 2015. In line with best practice, lobbied for the extension of his mandate in 2014. a number of options have been evaluated to ensure In March, Dr Shaheed reported that conditions for that Parliamentary security remains effective and prison inmates range from poor to inhumane, access responsive to future demands. All options assume that to medical services is often limited, and hygiene and both armed and unarmed police officers will continue nutrition are poor. The UK works closely with to be provided by the Metropolitan Police. It would be international human rights bodies and partners to inappropriate to provide information on the costs of encourage Iran to engage seriously on human rights the new arrangements while negotiations are underway. issues. The UK’s non-resident Charge d’Affaires also The number of police officers and security staff raised human rights with a range of Iranian government required under the new arrangements will be determined officials during his visit to Iran in March. by Parliament’s operational and security requirement Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth and how providers, including the Metropolitan Police Service, propose to meet these requirements. It will not To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their be possible to give final numbers for police officers principal aims in establishing closer diplomatic ties and security staff until new arrangements are agreed. with Iran. [HL381] WA 163 Written Answers[25 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 164

Baroness Warsi: The Secretary of State for Foreign asylum is given. However, to be eligible for international and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the protection, a person must be located outside of their Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), announced country of origin. on 17 June his decision to reopen the British Embassy in Tehran with a small initial presence, as soon as the practical arrangements can be made. National Institute for Health and Care Iran is an important country in a volatile region, Excellence and maintaining embassies around the world, even Question under difficult circumstances, is a central pillar of the Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff UK’s global diplomatic approach. We have no illusions that returning to Iran will be easy - there will continue To ask Her Majesty’s Government what to be many areas where we strongly disagree. Ultimately, representations they have made to National Institute having an Embassy in Tehran will enable us to better for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) to ensure understand and respond to those challenges. that charities representing patients are consulted by NICE when drawing up treatment guidelines; and whether they have asked NICE to take evidence Israel from the Multiple Sclerosis Society over the guidance Question being prepared on the management of multiple Asked by Lord Judd sclerosis. [HL440]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department representations they have made to G4S about the of Health(EarlHowe)(Con):Wehavemadenorepresentations legal implications of its remaining involvement with and have not asked the National Institute for Health the Israeli Prison Service until 2017, in the light of and Care Excellence (NICE) to take evidence from the Article 76 of the 4th Geneva Convention and its Multiple Sclerosis Society. application to the detention of Palestinians.[HL358] Charities representing patients are able to register as stakeholders and we understand that the Multiple The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Sclerosis Society is a stakeholder in the development and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth of NICE’s updated clinical guideline on multiple sclerosis. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The UK considers that In developing guidance, NICE consults with its registered Israel’s detention of Palestinian prisoners within Israel stakeholders and takes their comments fully into account. is contrary to Article 76 of the Fourth Geneva Convention We understand the Society has responded to NICE’s and have clearly stated this position to Israeli officials. recent consultation on its draft guideline in detail. We have also made clear our concerns about Israel’s treatment of Palestinian detainees in meetings with G4S. International law does not impose direct obligations Northern Ireland Government on corporations. However, the Government encourages Question British companies to show respect for human rights in their operations in the UK and internationally. Asked by Lord Eames In September 2013, we launched the UK Action To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Plan based on the UN Guiding Principles on Business they have had with the government of the Republic and Human Rights. This is voluntary guidance which of Ireland on ways to encourage dialogue among British businesses can consult on doing business in Northern Ireland parties on the issues of flags, Israel and OPTs, but ultimately it is the decision of an parades and dealing with the past. [HL462] individual or company concerned. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales Meriam Ibrahim Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): The Government is Question in regular contact with the Irish Government at ministerial and official levels on these issues. Both Governments Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool strongly support an intensification of the parties’ negotiations and believe that finding an agreed way To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they forward on these issues would be an important step will answer the question asked by Lord Alton of forward for Northern Ireland. Liverpool on 10 June (HL Deb, col 236), and on 11 June (HL Deb, col 418), about whether asylum in the United Kingdom will be offered to Meriam Palestinians Ibrahim, who has been imprisoned and given a Question death sentence in Sudan. [HL317] Asked by Baroness Tonge The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The UK has a they have had with the new President of Egypt proud record of offering sanctuary to those who need concerning the opening of Rafah crossing to Gaza, it. Each claim for asylum is carefully considered and in order to facilitate travel and the transfer of where we find individuals are in need of our protection, medical supplies. [HL275] WA 165 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 166

Baroness Northover (LD): We continue to urge the responsibility lies with the Secretary of State for Northern Egyptian authorities to ease the movement of bona Ireland for reserved matters and the Justice Minister fide travellers and humanitarian aid through Rafah. for Northern Ireland for devolved matters. In Scotland We call on Israel, Egypt and the Palestinian Authority it is devolved to the First Minister. The Secretary of to work together to enable a sustained increase in the State for Defence also has the responsibility in relation legal flow of goods and persons from and to the Gaza to members of the armed forces. Strip. Each department or administration is responsible Asked by Baroness Tonge for maintaining their records. I am not aware of any problems with retrieving such records for this period To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their relating to royal pardons granted on the recommendation most recent assessment of the level of medical of the Secretary of State for Justice. supplies in Gazan hospitals. [HL276] Private Members’ Bills Baroness Northover: DFID is deeply concerned at the shortage of medical supplies and drugs in Gazan Question hospitals. The World Health Organisation (WHO) has Asked by Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe estimated that in Gaza at 29% of drugs are at zero stock (less than 1 month’s supply). DFID is supporting To ask the Leader of the House what steps he the UN Access Coordination Unit to work with the will take to facilitate the passage of Private Members’ WHO, Israel, the Palestinian Authority, and aid agencies Bills through the House of Lords. [HL290] to facilitate the transfer of medical equipment and supplies and patient referrals in and out of Gaza. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill Asked by Lord Turnberg of Oareford) (Con): Practice in recent years is well- established: Private Members’ Bills introduced in the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions House of Lords are offered Second Reading slots in they have had with the Palestinian Authority about the order in which they receive their First Reading. the alleged kidnapping of Israeli teenagers on 12 June. Second Readings for Private Members’ Bills introduced [HL353] this session have been scheduled on Friday 27 June and Friday 18 July; further Second Readings will be The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities arranged in due course. A ballot to determine the and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth order in which Private Members’ Bills receive their Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Minister of State First Reading will be introduced from the start of the for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right Hon. new Parliament (3rd Report of the Procedure Committee, Friend the Member for Faversham and Mid Kent Session 2013-14). (Mr Robertson), discussed this with Palestinian Prime For Bills that receive a Second Reading, formal Minister Hamdallah and other government officials consideration of their remaining stages will be arranged on 18 June, during his visit to the region. Mr Robertson where no amendments are tabled and where the Member expressed his concerns over the kidnapping, welcomed in charge so requests. Where Bills receive a Second President Abbas’s condemnation of it and was briefed Reading but require further substantive consideration on Palestinian security co-operation with the Israelis. of amendments, they will be competing for time with Private Members’ Bills that are received from the House of Commons and Private Members’ Bills Prerogative of Mercy introduced in this House that are still awaiting a Question Second Reading. Asked by Lord Empey My noble friend the Government Chief Whip will endeavour to facilitate the progress of bills in each of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the those categories. reported loss of records of royal pardons granted between 1987 and 1997 applies to the whole of the United Kingdom. [HL286] Private Rented Sector Taskforce Question The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) Asked by Baroness King of Bow (Con): The exercise of the Royal Prerogative of Mercy may currently take one of three forms: To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the Written Answer by Baroness Stowell of Beeston i) The grant of a Free Pardon; on 6 May (WA 392), with which organisations ii) The grant of a conditional Pardon; representing private tenants the Private Rented Sector iii) Remission of all or part of a penalty Task Force has engaged since its establishment. By Constitutional convention, the Lord Chancellor [HL334] and Secretary of State for Justice (in succession to the Home Secretary) is responsible, in England and Wales The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department (and the Channel Islands), for recommending to for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell Her Majesty the exercise of the prerogative of mercy of Beeston) (Con): The Private Rented Sector Taskforce to grant a Royal Pardon. In Northern Ireland the work closely with my officials in developing our policies WA 167 Written Answers[25 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 168 in relation to the private rented sector. Together they Guide to Quality: engage with a wide range of private sector tenant The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the groups including Shelter, Crisis, Generation Rent and quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the its predecessor the National Private Tenant’s Organisation, higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within the National Union of Students, as well as individual +/- twice the CV - for example, for an estimate of 200 private tenant organisations. with a CV of 5% we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220.

Schools: Radicalism Coefficient of Variation Question KEY (CV) (% ) Statistical Robustness

Asked by Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean *0≤ CV < 5 Estimates are considered To ask Her Majesty’s Government which Ministers, precise. if any, were present at the presentation to the ** 5 ≤ CV < 10 Estimates are considered Department for Education on the threat of reasonably precise. *** 10 ≤ CV < 20 Estimates are considered radicalisation in Birmingham schools given by head acceptable. teacher Tim Boyes in 2010. [HL323] **** CV ≥ 20 Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools purposes (Lord Nash) (Con): The Secretary of State has asked the Permanent Secretary to conduct an internal review More timely self-employment estimates from the into how the Department for Education dealt with Labour Force Survey (LFS) are published monthly in warnings in Birmingham since the formation of this Table EMP01 as part of the Labour Market Statistics Government in 2010, and before. release, available here: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/publications/re- reference-tables.html?edition=tcm%3A77- Self-employed 311468#tab-Employment-tables Question As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS Asked by Lord Christopher are subject to a margin of uncertainty. These are To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many indicated by the guide to quality in the table. self-employed workers the Office for National Statistics estimated there to be in each financial year since 2010–11. [HL489] SESAR Question Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The information Asked by Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the Authority to To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to reply. the Written Answer by Baroness Kramer on 12 March (WA 375), in relation to the Single European Sky Letter from Glen Watson, Director General for Office ATM Research (SESAR), how many work packages for National Statistics, to Lord Christopher, dated June have to date involved general aviation. [HL264] 2014 As Director General for the Office for National The Minister of State, Department for Transport Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The SESAR Joint Undertaking Question asking Her Majesty’s Government how many is the EU public/private partnership which is responsible self-employed workers the Office for National Statistics for managing the SESAR programme. The SESAR estimated there to be in each financial year since Joint Undertaking seeks to involve all affected 2010–11. (HL489) stakeholders, including General Aviation, in the The table provides estimates from the Annual development of all work packages to ensure the Population Survey (APS) for the number of people technologies meet their needs. who reported to the survey that they were self-employed. Estimates are averages for the 12 month periods April 2010 to March 2011; April 2011 to March 2012 and April Social Services: Human Rights 2012 to March 2013. Estimates for the financial year Question 2013-14 will be available from the APS on 16th July 2014. Asked by Lord Low of Dalston Number of self-employed people, by financial year To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Twelve months ending March each year will make available to Parliament their assessment United Kingdom of the impact of the stronger regulatory powers Number in self- As a percentage of available to the Care Quality Commission since employment all in employment (thousands ) (%) 2008 on the provision of human rights-compatible care to service users, including the evidence on 2010-11 3,918 * 13.6 which that assessment is based, as recommended by 2011-12 4,101 * 14.1 the Joint Committee on Human Rights in its report 2012-13 4,160 * 14.1 Legislative Scrutiny: Care Bill (11th Report, Session Source: Annual Population Survey (APS) 2013–14, HL Paper 121). [HL352] WA 169 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 170

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department consultation, the CQC produced a draft document of Health (Earl Howe): The Care Quality Commission entitled, “Equality and Human Rights Duties Impact (CQC) is the independent regulator of health and Analysis (decision making and policies)”, to give more adult social care providers in England. Under the detail about the impact of the proposed changes on Health and Social Care Act 2008 (2008 Act) all providers equality and human rights and how they would promote of regulated activities have to register with the CQC equality and human rights for people who use health and meet a set of requirements of safety and quality. and social care services. As the CQC is a public authority it has a legal obligation The CQC also consulted on its approach to human in relation to protecting, respecting and fulfilling people’s rights as part of a broader consultation on changes to rights under the Human Rights Act 1998 (1998 Act). regulation of care services. The CQC explained its If a provider fails to meet these requirements the proposed strategy for delivering on its commitment to CQC has a wide range of enforcement powers that it promote equality, diversity and human rights in its can use to protect patients and service users from the regulatory work; to provide detail about what the risk of poor care. strategy will mean in practice; and to receive feedback The CQC has advised that it has taken the following from important stakeholders. published enforcement action during the financial year The CQC held the consultation between 9 April 2014 2013-14. and 4 June 2014. The CQC will respond to the results - The CQC undertook two urgent cancellations of of the consultation in September 2014. providers’ registration; The consultation can be found at the following web - The CQC undertook 53 cancellations of providers’ link: registration; www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/20140406_our_ - The CQC imposed a condition on a provider on human_rights_approach_public_consultation_final.pdf 45 occasions; In January 2014 the CQC published “Equality - The CQC varied a provider’s condition of registration Counts”, a report providing information about equality on 13 occasions; in its workforce and for people who are affected by its regulatory policies and practices. The CQC will use - The CQC undertook an urgent variation of a the information in this report to drive its work in provider’s conditions of registration on 13 occasions; promoting equality and human rights, both in its - The CQC imposed 1,269 warning notices on providers regulatory functions and as an employer. The CQC and 18,408 compliance actions on providers; and will continue to develop its new approach to ensure - The CQC issued over 500 fixed penalty notices. equality in different types of health and social care The CQC monitors and inspects health and social services. care providers under regulations which stipulate that providers must deliver care and treatment to people with due regard to their age, sex, religion, sexual South Sudan orientation, race, cultural and linguistic background Question and disability (Regulation 17). Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool Where services do not meet standards for Regulation 17, the CQC sets compliance actions and To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they monitors whether providers have taken action to meet plan to commit to ensuring that diplomatic engagement the standard. If they have not, the CQC may take with South Sudan continues beyond the signing of enforcement action. Between 1 October 2012 and and re-commitment to a ceasefire, in order to support 30 September 2013, the CQC found 48 services did not an inclusive national dialogue process. [HL315] comply with Regulation 17, leading to enforcement action. This enforcement action is set out in the following The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities table. and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Recommitting to a Enforcement action around Regulation 17 in 2012-13 ceasefire is an important step, but it is only the first Acute hospitals 1 step in a long process towards national reconciliation Mental health hospitals/ 2 in South Sudan. We welcome the agreement reached hospitals for people with a between President Salva Kir and Riek Machar to work learning disability towards the formation of a transitional government of General practitioners 0 national unity. This is a further positive step. But both Dentists 2 parties must continue to engage constructively in the Care homes 36 Intergovernmental Authority on Development (IGAD)- Home care agencies 3 mediated peace talks in Addis. The UK, along with Other social care services 4 our troika (UK, US and Norway) and EU partners, Total 48 continues to support IGAD efforts to resolve the crisis with both financial assistance and expertise. The UK Special Envoy to the South Sudan peace talks has The CQC’s consultation‘ANew Start’, in June 2013 attended each session of the talks in an advisory capacity on how it regulates, inspects and rates services included since his appointment in January this year, including a section on how Human Rights would be protected when the latest agreement on transitional government by changes to its regulatory model. To accompany the was reached on 10 June. The Special Envoy has also WA 171 Written Answers[25 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 172 met with both parties in South Sudan and has engaged to those areas. President Rajapaksa has also urged regional leaders whose influence is vital to the peace restraint and pledged that those responsible for the process. We are exploring with troika partners further violence would be held to account. We continue to ways in which we can support the national dialogue watch the situation closely. process, both financially and administratively.

Sri Lanka Question Syria and Iraq Question Asked by Baroness Brinton Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the government To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they of Sri Lanka about the attacks on Muslims on will seek ways to contain and, if possible, eliminate 15 June by Buddhists in Aluthgama; and what the influence of al-Qaeda-affiliated and other jihadi information have they received from the government groups in Syria and Iraq. [HL313] of Sri Lanka about its plans to halt the sectarian violence. [HL367] The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The UK is deeply concerned and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth by the growth of terrorism in Syria and Iraq, which Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We continue to raise threatens the Syrian and Iraqi people, the region, and our concerns about the recent communal tensions and the UK. We condemn all acts of terrorism committed the significant surge in attacks against members of in both states. Tackling the threat from foreign extremists religious minority groups in Sri Lanka including those currently operating as part of the Islamic State in Iraq of 15 June, with the Sri Lankan authorities. Our High and the Levant (ISIL) is a priority. I repeated the Commissioner to Colombo has met Muslim community Statement on Iraq outlining the Government’s response representatives to discuss their concerns. The Head of given to the House on Monday 16 June by the Secretary the EU Delegation has raised recent developments of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my with the Sri Lankan Defence Secretary.The EU delegation right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) has released a statement in agreement with EU Heads (Mr Hague), House of Lords Hansard, Official Report, of Mission in Sri Lanka condemning the violence and Columns 703-706. have called on the Sri Lankan government to uphold The threat from foreign extremists is being tackled law and order. through a wide range of interventions from disrupting Sri Lankan President Rajapaksa and other senior the flow of foreign-fighters travelling from the UK Sri Lankan Ministers have visited the area affected by through to supporting the counter-terrorist efforts of violence, and the army and police have been deployed regional partners.

Wednesday 25 June 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Banking: Reform ...... 115 EU: Energy Council...... 118

Education: Early Years ...... 115 Public Sector: Exit Payments ...... 119

Employment: Zero-hours Contracts ...... 117 Regional Growth Fund...... 120

Wednesday 25 June 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Apprentices...... 155 Meriam Ibrahim ...... 163

Aviation ...... 155 National Institute for Health and Care Excellence...... 164

Burma...... 155 Northern Ireland Government...... 164

China...... 156 Palestinians...... 164

Contraceptives ...... 156 Prerogative of Mercy ...... 165

Crimes of Violence ...... 157 Private Members’ Bills ...... 166

Diabetes...... 158 Private Rented Sector Taskforce ...... 166

Gender Recognition...... 159 Schools: Radicalism...... 167

Homelessness...... 160 Self-employed ...... 167

Homosexuality...... 160 SESAR ...... 168

House of Lords: Access ...... 161 Social Services: Human Rights ...... 168

House of Lords: Security...... 161 South Sudan ...... 170

Iran...... 162 Sri Lanka...... 171

Israel...... 163 Syria and Iraq...... 172 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL264] ...... 168 [HL315] ...... 170

[HL265] ...... 155 [HL317] ...... 163

[HL275] ...... 164 [HL323] ...... 167

[HL276] ...... 165 [HL324] ...... 158

[HL279] ...... 155 [HL325] ...... 157

[HL286] ...... 165 [HL326] ...... 158

[HL290] ...... 166 [HL334] ...... 166

[HL294] ...... 160 [HL335] ...... 160

[HL313] ...... 172 [HL342] ...... 159 Col. No. Col. No. [HL343] ...... 159 [HL380] ...... 156

[HL352] ...... 168 [HL381] ...... 162

[HL353] ...... 165 [HL399] ...... 158

[HL355] ...... 162 [HL431] ...... 161

[HL356] ...... 162 [HL440] ...... 164

[HL358] ...... 163 [HL462] ...... 164

[HL367] ...... 171 [HL474] ...... 156

[HL369] ...... 159 [HL475] ...... 157

[HL373] ...... 160 [HL489] ...... 167

[HL379] ...... 155 [HL545] ...... 161 Volume 754 Wednesday No. 13 25 June 2014

CONTENTS

Wednesday 25 June 2014 Questions Housing: Accessibility...... 1235 Bovine Tuberculosis...... 1237 Assisted Suicide ...... 1240 Women: Wages ...... 1242 Wales Bill First Reading ...... 1244 National Security Strategy Joint Committee Membership Motion...... 1244 Serious Crime Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 1245 Infrastructure Bill [HL] Order of Consideration Motion ...... 1245 First World War Motion to Take Note ...... 1245 Iraq Motion to Take Note ...... 1315 Written Statements...... WS 115 Written Answers...... WA 155