Vol. 755 Monday No. 20 7 July 2014

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions House of Lords: Question Time...... 1 British Council: English Schools Abroad...... 4 Scientific Research and Development ...... 6 Legal Aid: Social Welfare Law ...... 9 Criminal Justice and Courts Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 11 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Iraq) Order 2014 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Mongolia) Order 2014 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Philippines) Order 2014 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Vietnam) Order 2014 Motions to Approve...... 12 Legal Services Act 2007 (Approved Regulator) Order 2014 Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) (Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys and Institute of Trade Mark Attorneys) Order 2014 Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales) Order 2014 Motions to Approve...... 12 Political Parties, Elections and Referendums (Civil Sanctions) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 13 Deregulation Bill Second Reading ...... 13 Child Abuse Statement ...... 53 Deregulation Bill (Continued) Second Reading ...... 64 Health: Polypill Question for Short Debate...... 98

Grand Committee Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (Amendment of Schedule 1: injuctions to prevent gang-related violence) Order 2014 Motion to Consider ...... GC 1 Adoption and Children Act Register (Search and Inspection) (Pilot) Regulations 2014 Motion to Consider ...... GC 3 Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for Examining Officers and Review Officers) Order 2014 Motion to Consider ...... GC 8 Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels Question for Short Debate...... GC 14 Trade Unions Question for Short Debate...... GC 23

Written Statements ...... WS 1 Written Answers ...... WA 1

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative Con Ind Conservative Independent DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Lab Labour Lab Ind Labour Independent LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2014, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. HER MAJESTY’S GOVERNMENT PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF STATE THE CABINET PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt. Hon. David Cameron, MP DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt. Hon. Nick Clegg, MP FIRST SECRETARY OF STATE AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS—The Rt. Hon. William Hague, MP CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt. Hon. George Osborne, MP CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY—The Rt. Hon. Danny Alexander, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT—The Rt. Hon. Theresa May, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE—The Rt. Hon. Philip Hammond, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR BUSINESS,INNOVATION AND SKILLS AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt. Hon. Vince Cable, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WORK AND PENSIONS—The Rt. Hon. Iain Duncan Smith, MP LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR JUSTICE—The Rt. Hon. Chris Grayling, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EDUCATION—The Rt. Hon. Michael Gove, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT—The Rt. Hon. Eric Pickles, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR HEALTH—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENVIRONMENT,FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS—The Rt. Hon. Owen Paterson, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—The Rt. Hon. Justine Greening, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt. Hon. Alistair Carmichael, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—The Rt. Hon. Edward Davey, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR TRANSPORT—The Rt. Hon. Patrick McLoughlin, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT AND MINISTER FOR EQUALITIES—The Rt. Hon. Sajid Javid, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND—The Rt. Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WALES—The Rt. Hon. David Jones, MP LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt. Hon. Lord Hill of Oareford, CBE DEPARTMENTS OF STATE AND MINISTERS Business, Innovation and Skills— SECRETARY OF STATE AND PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE—The Rt. Hon. Vince Cable, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. David Willetts, MP (Minister for Universities and Science) The Rt. Hon. Michael Fallon, MP Matthew Hancock, MP (Minister for Skills and Enterprise) Lord Livingston of Parkhead (Minister for Trade and Investment) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Jenny Willott, MP Viscount Younger of Leckie Cabinet Office— MINISTER FOR THE CABINET OFFICE AND PAYMASTER-GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Francis Maude, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Oliver Letwin, MP (Minister for Government Policy) The Rt. Hon. David Laws, MP The Rt. Hon. Greg Clark, MP

PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARIES— Nick Hurd, MP (Minister for Civil Society) Joseph Johnson, MP Communities and Local Government— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Eric Pickles, MP SENIOR MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Warsi PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Nick Boles, MP Brandon Lewis, MP Stephen Williams, MP Kris Hopkins, MP Baroness Stowell of Beeston, MBE ii

Culture, Media and Sport— SECRETARY OF STATE FOR CULTURE,MEDIA AND SPORT AND MINISTER FOR EQUALITIES—The Rt. Hon. Sajid Javid, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Edward Vaizey, MP Helen Grant, MP MINISTER FOR WOMEN––The Rt. Hon. Nicky Morgan, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE FOR WOMEN AND EQUALITIES— Jenny Willott, MP Helen Grant, MP Defence— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Philip Hammond, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Mark Francois, MP (Minister for the Armed Forces) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Dr Andrew Murrison, MP Philip Dunne, MP Anna Soubry, MP Lord Astor of Hever, DL Education— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Michael Gove, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. David Laws, MP (Minister for Schools) Matthew Hancock, MP (Minister for Skills and Enterprise) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Edward Timpson, MP Elizabeth Truss, MP Lord Nash Energy and Climate Change— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Edward Davey, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Gregory Barker, MP The Rt. Hon. Michael Fallon, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Baroness Verma Environment, Food and Rural Affairs— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Owen Paterson, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— George Eustice, MP Dan Rogerson, MP Lord De Mauley, TD Foreign and Commonwealth Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. William Hague, MP SENIOR MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Warsi MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. David Lidington, MP (Minister for Europe) The Rt. Hon. Hugo Swire, MP The Rt. Hon. Hugh Robertson, MP Lord Livingston of Parkhead PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Mark Simmonds, MP Health— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Jeremy Hunt, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Norman Lamb, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Jane Ellison, MP Daniel Poulter, MP The Rt. Hon. Earl Howe Home Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Theresa May, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Damian Green, MP (Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice) Norman Baker, MP (Minister for Crime Prevention) James Brokenshire, MP (Minister for Security and Immigration) PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Karen Bradley, MP Lord Taylor of Holbeach, CBE iii

International Development— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Justine Greening, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Alan Duncan, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—Lynne Featherstone, MP Justice— LORD CHANCELLOR AND SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Chris Grayling, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Simon Hughes, MP The Rt. Hon. Damian Green, MP (Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice) Lord Faulks PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Shailesh Vara, MP Jeremy Wright, MP Law Officers— ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The Rt. Hon. Dominic Grieve, QC, MP SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Oliver Heald, QC, MP ADVOCATE-GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND—The Rt. Hon. Lord Wallace of Tankerness, QC Leader of the House of Commons— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS AND LORD PRIVY SEAL—The Rt. Hon. Andrew Lansley, CBE, MP PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY—The Rt. Hon. Tom Brake, MP Leader of the House of Lords— LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER—The Rt. Hon. Lord Hill of Oareford, CBE DEPUTY LEADER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS—The Rt. Hon. Lord Wallace of Tankerness, QC Northern Ireland— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Theresa Villiers, MP MINISTER OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Andrew Robathan, MP Privy Council Office— DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL—The Rt. Hon. Nick Clegg, MP Scotland Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Alistair Carmichael, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. David Mundell, MP Transport— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Patrick McLoughlin, MP MINISTER OF STATE—Baroness Kramer PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Robert Goodwill, MP Stephen Hammond, MP Treasury— PRIME MINISTER,FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY AND MINISTER FOR THE CIVIL SERVICE—The Rt. Hon. David Cameron, MP

CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER—The Rt. Hon. George Osborne, MP

CHIEF SECRETARY—The Rt. Hon. Danny Alexander, MP

FINANCIAL SECRETARY—The Rt. Hon. Nicky Morgan, MP

EXCHEQUER SECRETARY—David Gauke, MP

ECONOMIC SECRETARY—ANDREA Leadsom, MP

COMMERCIAL SECRETARY—Lord Deighton, KBE

PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY (CHIEF WHIP)—The Rt. Hon. Sir George Young, MP

LORDS COMMISSIONERS (GOVERNMENT WHIPS)— Anne Milton, MP David Evennett, MP Stephen Crabb, MP Mark Lancaster, MP Sam Gyimah, MP John Penrose, MP iv

ASSISTANT GOVERNMENT WHIPS— Joseph Johnson, MP Mark Hunter, MP Jenny Willott, MP Amber Rudd, MP Claire Perry, MP Gavin Barwell, MP Harriett Baldwin, MP Wales Office— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. David Jones, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARIES OF STATE— Stephen Crabb, MP Baroness Randerson Work and Pensions— SECRETARY OF STATE—The Rt. Hon. Iain Duncan Smith, MP MINISTERS OF STATE— The Rt. Hon. Esther McVey, MP Steve Webb, MP The Rt. Hon. Mike Penning, MP PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE— Lord Freud Ministers without Portfolio— The Rt. Hon. Kenneth Clarke, QC, MP The Rt. Hon. Grant Shapps, MP The Rt. Hon. John Hayes, MP Her Majesty’s Household— LORD CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt. Hon. Earl Peel, GCVO, DL LORD STEWARD—The Earl of Dalhousie MASTER OF THE HORSE—Lord Vestey, KCVO LORDS IN WAITING— Viscount Brookeborough, DL Lord Faringdon TREASURER (DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP)—The Rt. Hon. Greg Hands, MP COMPTROLLER (DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP)—The Rt. Hon. Don Foster, MP VICE-CHAMBERLAIN—The Rt. Hon. Desmond Swayne, MP Government Whips, House of Lords— CAPTAIN OF THE HONOURABLE CORPS OF GENTLEMEN-AT-ARMS (CHIEF WHIP)—The Rt. Hon. Baroness Anelay of St Johns, DBE CAPTAIN OF THE QUEEN’S BODYGUARD OF THE YEOMEN OF THE GUARD (DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP)—The Rt. Hon. Lord Newby, OBE BARONESSES IN WAITING— Baroness Northover Baroness Jolly Baroness Williams of Trafford LORDS IN WAITING— Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon Lord Bates Lord Gardiner of Kimble Lord Popat The Rt. Hon. Lord Wallace of Saltaire HOUSE OF LORDS

PRINCIPAL OFFICE HOLDERS AND SENIOR STAFF LORD SPEAKER—The Rt. Hon. Baroness D’Souza, CMG CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—Lord Sewel, CBE PRINCIPAL DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—Lord Boswell of Aynho CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS—D. R. Beamish, LL.M CLERK ASSISTANT—E. C. Ollard READING CLERK AND CLERK OF THE OVERSEAS OFFICE—S. P. Burton GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD AND SERJEANT-AT-ARMS—Lieutenant General David Leakey, CMG, CBE COMMISSIONER FOR STANDARDS—P. R. Kernaghan, CBE, QPM COUNSEL TO THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES—P. Milledge; P. Hardy REGISTRAR OF LORDS’INTERESTS—B. P. Keith CLERK OF COMMITTEES—Dr F. P. Tudor LEGAL ADVISER TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMITTEE—M. R. Hunt DIRECTOR OF INFORMATION SERVICES AND LIBRARIAN—Dr E. Hallam Smith DIRECTOR OF FACILITIES—C. V. Woodall FINANCE DIRECTOR—A. Makower DIRECTOR OF PARLIAMENTARY ICT SERVICE—Mrs J. Miller DIRECTOR OF HUMAN RESOURCES—T. V. Mohan CLERK OF LEGISLATION—J. Vaughan PRINCIPAL CLERK OF SELECT COMMITTEES—C. Johnson, DPhil

7 July 2014

THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

IN THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE FIFTY-FIFTH PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND COMMENCING ON THE EIGHTEENTH DAY OF MAY IN THE FIFTY-NINTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF

HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II

FIFTH SERIES VOLUME DCCLV

SECOND VOLUME OF SESSION 2014-15

Lord Hill of Oareford: I agree very much with my House of Lords noble friend that brief questions are to be encouraged: brief questions tend to elicit brief answers. I think that Monday, 7 July 2014. it is incumbent on everyone in the House to make sure that they understand the rules set out in the Companion. 2.30 pm I think that over time behaviour sometimes slips. This is a good opportunity to remind ourselves of those Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Truro. principles to which we all say, “Hear, hear,” but which we need to put into action. Introduction: The Lord Bishop of Ely Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, I 2.36 pm am sure that the Leader agrees that question time is both the best of this House and, sometimes, the worst. Stephen David, Lord Bishop of Ely, was introduced Does he also agree, as I think he does, that occasionally between the Lord Bishop of Truro and the Lord Bishop the transgressions come from the Dispatch Box? On of Chelmsford, took and subscribed the oath and signed statements of opinion, does he agree that from time to an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct. time opinion is expressed about the conduct of the Opposition, which is perhaps not always relevant to House of Lords: Question Time the Question being asked? Will he consider stressing to his colleagues how important these rules are? Question Lord Hill of Oareford: I will certainly stress the 2.41 pm rules to all Members of the House, both Front Bench Asked by Baroness Sharples and Back Bench.

To ask the Leader of the House what plans he Baroness Walmsley (LD): Does the Minister agree has to improve the conduct of question time in the that question time is primarily for Back-Benchers? House of Lords. Does he also agree that, unless it has become obvious that nobody else wants to ask a question, it is not The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord appropriate to have two or even three consecutive Hill of Oareford) (Con): My Lords, as a self-regulating questions from any Benches? House, we all have a responsibility to uphold our rules of conduct at question time. The rules on supplementary Lord Hill of Oareford: I agree that question time questions set out in the Companion could not be provides an important opportunity for Back-Benchers. clearer: no reading and no statements of opinion. Noble Lords may be interested to know that, so far Supplementaries, this year, 370 Members of your Lordships’ House “should be short and confined to not more than two points”. have asked an oral or a supplementary question. That is an encouragingly large number, although it sometimes Noble Lords: Hear, hear. feels as though certain Members of the House ask more than that number might suggest. The House at Baroness Sharples (Con): I thank my noble friend Oral Questions is generally pretty good at working out for that reply. Does he agree that Standing Orders whose turn it is to ask a question, but I agree with my should be compulsory reading for anybody who enters noble friend that none of us should make an assumption the House? If questions were briefer, would it not that we automatically have a right to ask a question or allow more people to enter the fray? a flow of questions from one side of the House. 3 House of Lords: Question Time[LORDS] British Council: English Schools Abroad 4

Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale (Lab): My Lords, Lord Hill of Oareford: I disagree with the noble does the Leader agree with me that it is a rule of this Lord very strongly. The principle of self-regulation House that, if a question comes from the Government that we have in this House is worth fighting for and Benches, it should go around the House? That was preserving as strongly as we possibly can—all of us. I certainly always the tradition when I first came here. would not wish on this House the example provided When, as now, two parties are in government, there by the other place. A few years back the House looked should be a question from the Government and then at the question of whether we would prefer to have a questions from around the other Benches—not a question system here that mirrored more closely that of the from each bit of the Government. other House, with a Speaker. It voted fairly clearly, concluding that it preferred to stick with our current Lord Hill of Oareford: I hope that noble Lords who arrangements. However, it is incumbent on all of us are regular attenders would agree that the way in who care about self-regulation to make sure that we which questions move around the House works pretty do it. I do not accept the noble Lord’s characterisation well. It is worth pointing out that over 50% of noble that most of the time it does not work. I think that Lords who are the most frequent askers of questions most of the time it works extremely well. are from the Labour Benches. Lord Avebury (LD): Does my noble friend agree Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, surely there is one that some of the worst offenders in asking non-questions other issue: the jostling and bullying to ask a are those who have been here longest and should know supplementary question, which is very undignified. better? It might be useful for him to write to some of Noble Lords who do not like that simply do not take those offenders and point out that they are breaking part. People on all sides of the House feel that. the rules, so that they do not repeat that.

Lord Hill of Oareford: I certainly do not think that Lord Hill of Oareford: It is incumbent on all the we should have jostling and bullying. Most of the time groups in the House to help to police this and, if they the House operates pretty well and noble Lords give need to, to communicate to some of their members. way to other noble Lords and give them a chance. The The point that I make about publishing more information House wants to hear from a wide range of people. on the number of times people ask questions, and However, I take the point. Sometimes we hear from perhaps the number of words that they use, might help some noble Lords more frequently than from others—they to shine a spotlight. might all like to reflect on that. I had a thought that might help with that, which I would be happy to British Council: English Schools Abroad discuss with the Clerk of the Parliaments to see whether Question it is possible. If we could publish more frequently information on the frequency with which some Members 2.50 pm ask questions, that might help us to draw the conclusion Asked by Baroness Rawlings that we ought to share them out more widely. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what guidance they have given to the British Council in respect of Lord Geddes (Con): Does my noble friend agree its staff serving on the governing bodies of English that thus far the example set by the House on this schools abroad; and why British embassies can no Question is exemplary, in that not one word has been longer support schools and other bodies. read? Baroness Rawlings (Con): My Lords, I beg leave to Lord Hill of Oareford: I agree—and long may that ask the Question standing in my name on the Order continue. Paper, and in doing so declare an interest as chairman of the English College in Prague. Baroness Deech (CB): Does the Minister share the concern that perhaps women Members of this House The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities do not get their fair share of questions? However, I and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth carried out a little survey in which I calculated the Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Lords, the Government number of interventions by noble Baronesses and have not provided guidance to the British Council discovered that they asked proportionately rather more regarding staff serving on governing bodies of English questions than one would expect from their number in schools abroad. The FCO has not instructed its posts the House. to cease support for schools or other bodies. British embassies’ association with local schools will have a Lord Hill of Oareford: This House is full of all sorts historical basis dating from a time when it may not of Members who are not shy of coming forward and I have been possible to open local English-language or welcome that. British-style schools without such links. Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, in the Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, I thank the Minister absence of a Speaker, we are told by the Government— and I am delighted with her response that there is indeed, by both Governments—from the Front Bench no conflict of interest with English schools abroad. I that it is for individual Members of the House to will relay her Answer to the governing body. I fully police the House and all its proceedings. However, understand the Government’s policy of saving taxpayers’ does that not just create resentment and embarrassment money. Can she reassure the House that the new between colleagues? The system does not work. government policy for only commercial entertainment 5 British Council: English Schools Abroad[7 JULY 2014] Scientific Research and Development 6 will not be extended to British schools abroad, when and awareness on a whole series of issues. I can tell my more than a third of our 1,000 students attend British noble friend that the decision on the overall strategy universities? direction and management of the British Council is taken by the council’s executive board of trustees, and Baroness Warsi: I can confirm to my noble friend this would be a decision that it would take. Of course, that specific guidance was issued by the British Council. the Foreign and Commonwealth Office continues to I will send her a copy of that guidance, which clearly support the British Council’s grant in aid, which for shows the British Council acted on its own legal this year has been set at £153.5 million. advisers’ advice, rather than on any advice of the Government. On British embassies and high commissions abroad serving their communities, I assure my noble Scientific Research and Development friend that a whole host of events are held at high Question commissions and embassies, many of them with civil society organisations, NGOs and communities. They 2.55 pm certainly are not all commercially based. Asked by Baroness Wilcox Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, the Minister will recall that in this month last year her right honourable To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures friend Hugo Swire announced a triennial review of the they are taking to encourage greater investment in work of the British Council—admirable work, which scientific research and development within the United it conducts all over the world. Can she tell us where Kingdom. that review now stands? Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, the Baroness Warsi: The noble Lord is right: there is Government recognise that investment in science and currently a triennial review. It is part of the wider research are key to long-term competitiveness and review of non-departmental public bodies. The work growth. Therefore, we have protected the ring-fenced of the review started in August or September last year science and research programme at £4.6 billion per and is still ongoing. Recommendations have been year from 2011-12 to 2015-16. Furthermore, we have submitted to the Foreign Secretary and the Cabinet committed to providing £1.1 billion a year of science Secretary. In due course there will be a report. capital spending, increasing with inflation.

Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, due to the drop in Lord Taverne (LD): My Lords— the number of students from overseas coming to this country, many British universities are now setting up Baroness Wilcox (Con): I thank the Minister for his campuses abroad. Does the Minister agree that it helpful response to my rather stuttered Question. I am would be wise to instruct the British Council and the afraid that I got overtaken by what has happened thus British embassies to ensure that those universities are far concerning what we should say and what we should assisted in their presence so that more people can and should not read. If I can remember to ask the benefit from attending not only English schools, but question as I intended to, I want to know what the the other universities that are there as well? long-term framework for science and innovation is. We all agree that we ought to have advance notice and Baroness Warsi: I can assure my noble friend that enough time for some of the bigger programmes to overseas students are a key priority for the Government. put their financing together but do the Government Indeed, more than 6,000 British overseas schools provide have anything planned in the long term for science and the first cohort of overseas students. That is why we innovation? have a relationship with them. Indeed, many of our ambassadors and deputy ambassadors sit on the boards of many of these schools. The British Council does a Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I would tremendous amount of work promoting English and never accuse my noble friend of stuttering at all—her education. That is sometimes the first experience people question is quite clear. The Government will define overseas have of the educational opportunities available the future scope and scale of the UK’s science and in the United Kingdom. innovation system to 2020 and beyond. Just to throw some light on this, in the Autumn Statement of 2014 Baroness Hooper (Con): My Lords, would my noble some of the key questions will focus on business friend confirm further the excellent work that is done investment in R&D, research infrastructure, skills and by the British Council in the field of education where talent, and the balance in funding between curiosity-driven British Council centres exist? Since the Foreign Office and applied research. The strategy will define the scale has done such wonderful work in reopening embassies and scope of the UK’s science and innovation system in many parts of the world, will it consider reopening by 2020 and indeed beyond. British Council centres that have been closed down in various parts of the world? Lord Turnberg (Lab): My Lords, nowhere is there a greater need for government and industry to work Baroness Warsi: I support my noble friend’s comments. together than in the development of new antibiotics. The British Council is a global brand. It hugely strengthens Industry is desperately in need of government support the reputation of the United Kingdom and connects in this area. Do the Government have any plans to with people about the United Kingdom. It builds trust help with this? 7 Scientific Research and Development[LORDS] Scientific Research and Development 8

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: As the noble Lord may Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con): Does my noble friend be aware, the Government have a series of thematic recollect the very important statement he made in priorities covering a range of things from agriculture Grand Committee that nuclear research infrastructure and food to the built environment, the digital economy, would be part of the overall scientific infrastructure energy, and health and care. Healthcare providers are arrangements that he announced? Does he recognise also included in this, and these thematic priorities will that if infrastructure is to be protected, it is no use formulate part of the strategy for 2014, to which I unless the running and operating expenses are given have alluded. similar long-term assurances? Will they be within the arrangements that he described as taking us up to Lord Taverne: I apologise for my premature 2020 and beyond? intervention. Are the Government aware—I am sure they are—that vice-chancellors are deeply concerned Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My noble friend has a about the possibility of our exit from the European good memory in reminding me of what I said in Union? This would have a devastating effect on scientific Grand Committee. He mentioned nuclear in Grand research and development in our universities. Committee and part of the thematic priorities within that are energy and how the challenges of a secure, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The Government’s position affordable and sustainable energy sector can be is quite clear. The European Union has benefits and maintained. The issues my noble friend raises about the Government wish to see a renegotiated Union— sustainability are primary in our thoughts. something that I think many noble Lords share. The Prime Minister has stood up for British interests. Lord Kakkar (CB): Given my interest as UK business Universities are working closely with business and ambassador for healthcare and life sciences, what others, and the UK continues to be among the top in assessment has been made of the life sciences strategy terms of research. Looking at some of the statistics, announced by Her Majesty’s Government in December the UK has, for example, won 85 Nobel prizes for 2011—in particular, its impact on inward investment science and technology, and we plan that that should for research and development for biomedical sciences continue with the new strategy. in the United Kingdom? Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB): What plans do Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Inward investment remains the Government have to help science-based companies an important part of this. As I said, the strategy and to really scale up? Too often our brilliant scientists are the different announcements that we have made will bought before they have had a chance to contribute to come together in the Autumn Statement in 2014. All the economy. I am thinking, for example, of DeepMind, disciplines, including what the noble Lord alluded to, our leading artificial intelligence company, which was will be included within that. The Government believe bought by Google before it really had a chance to in prioritising and in ensuring that the UK is recognised grow. as a centre of research excellence, and we will continue to attract through our new scientific strategy the best Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: As ever, the noble from the international field as well. Baroness speaks with great experience. The Government recognise the importance of business investment in Lord Harrison (Lab): Given that the Government R&D and we are looking to give this great encouragement. are seeking to reduce the draft amending budget No. 3 R&D tax credits are the single biggest form of government of the European Union 2014 and the 2015 draft support for business investment in R&D and are available budget, how is it expected that investment in research to all sectors. In 2011-12, the R&D tax credit scheme and development will add to the growth agenda to supported an estimated 73% of UK business. However, which this Government have signed up? I agree with the concern aired by the noble Baroness. It is important that we keep the best and the brightest Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The Government play in Britain working for British companies. a leading role and will continue to lead on the European front. Let me give the example of our investment in Lord Haskel (Lab): Each government department the space industry specifically. A large proportion of had an independent scientific budget under the our investment in that industry is with our European management of the scientist. That was a very important partners and the European Space Agency. We continue part of the Government’s research budget, but that to collaborate across a series of different fields. budget seems to have disappeared. Can the Minister Lord Mawhinney (Con): My Lords, I return to the tell us what happened to it? question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, about whether the Government had plans to help the Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: It is important to recognise development of antibiotics, the urgency of which is that the Government are currently consulting. I have very great. My noble friend answered by saying that already talked of the new strategy that will be outlined health and healthcare were part of the Government’s in the Autumn Statement and the consultations we plan but he was not specific about antibiotics. I, along have had. The strategy will be led by Sir Mark Walport with others in this House, would like an answer to that who is the Government’s Chief Scientific Adviser. It question. will draw on external experts both in government and outside, including those with experience of successfully Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: A specific question commercialising science, and will identify what is best. requires a specific answer and I will write specifically What we deliver as a country is more important than to the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, and indeed, to my what we deliver as individual departments. noble friend. 9 Scientific Research and Development[7 JULY 2014] Legal Aid: Social Welfare Law 10

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, in Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD): My Lords, his initial response the Minister suggested that the I refer the House to my registered interest as a practising Government were supporting the practice started by barrister. My noble friend’s department has in the past the previous Government of maintaining ring-fencing largely dismissed fears for the future availability of for a large science budget. Is it not a fact that when the publicly-funded barristers, given the cuts in the scope Government came into power in 2010 they cut almost of legal aid and in remuneration rates. Does my noble entirely the capital budget and restricted the revenue friend share my concern at the 38% drop in available budgets to cash only, so we have lost about £500 million tenancies in chambers over the year to 2011-12 and over that period? the long-term decline in the availability of pupilages, particularly in chambers doing legally-aided work? Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The Government have How can we reverse this trend? made clear their priority for spending in this area and that is why both in my original Answer and the Lord Faulks: My Lords, that is a little way from supplementary I also mentioned that since 2010 a social welfare law. Of course we need lawyers to represent further £1.5 billion of capital has been provided to those in every section of society in all sorts of fields. science and research, along with more than £600 million The fact remains that there is less for lawyers to do of additional resources. This underlines the Government’s and inevitably there will be fewer lawyers to do it. It is commitment to this important area for the country. important that the profession maintains high standards but I do not think that I can comment on numbers in Legal Aid: Social Welfare Law particular chambers. Question Lord Low of Dalston (CB): My Lords, getting back 3.05 pm to social welfare law, the Minister will be aware of the report of the commission, which I had the honour to Asked by Lord Bach chair, on the future of advice and legal support on To ask Her Majesty’s Government, 15 months social welfare law. One of the chief recommendations after the coming into force of the Legal Aid, Sentencing of that report was that the Government should develop and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, what is a national strategy for advice and legal support in their assessment of the effect of the Act on the legal England and that there should be a Minister for advice advice system in relation to social welfare law in and legal support within the MoJ with a cross- England and Wales. departmental brief to lead the development of such a strategy. Will the Government give serious The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord consideration to the early implementation of that Faulks) (Con): My Lords, we have made hard choices recommendation? in reforming legal aid. However, we have retained it for the highest priority social welfare cases and we continue Lord Faulks: I am indeed aware of the noble Lord’s to spend an estimated £50 million per year on this area. commission and its report on the future of advice and Although the Act is relatively new, the reduction in legal support on social welfare law. Indeed, I answered legal aid for social welfare matters is broadly in line a debate on the subject on 25 February this year. As I with expectations. We are monitoring the impact of told the House, we keep the position under review and legal aid reform and will conduct a post-implementation are keen that there should be effective mechanisms to review within five years of implementation. help individuals. However, it was made clear in the Cabinet Office review of the not-for-profit social welfare Lord Bach (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord advice sector that while the Government accept the for his Answer but he and the Government know that role they have in supporting the sector there is a need the effect on social welfare law advice has been devastating. for the sector to adapt to the new funding realities. In the year 2013-14 alone—this is from the Government’s Indeed, that was very much acknowledged in the own figures—there was an 80% fall in the number of noble Lord’s report and during the course of contributions social welfare law cases, including a figure of 45% in made in that debate. housing cases. These cuts affect the poorest and most vulnerable, including many disabled people, in our The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford: My Lords, I, too, society. Are the Government to some extent ashamed should like to make reference to the Low commission. of the removal of access to justice from hundreds of The church, faith communities and charities are all thousands of our fellow citizens, all caused by deliberate too keenly aware of the impacts of some of the cuts in coalition government policy? legal aid on the poorest communities in our country. Sometimes a professional lawyer is needed. Would the Lord Faulks: The noble Lord mentioned housing. Minister still regard the proposals of the Low commission In fact, legal aid remains available for eviction and for a nationally resourced strategy to provide support possession cases, housing disrepairs, where there is a and legal advice as an important priority? serious risk to health or safety, homelessness assistance and all debt matters which may represent a threat to Lord Faulks: My Lords, as I said in response to the somebody’s home. As to the cuts in legal aid, they are debate, it was a valuable contribution. The LASPO concentrated on matters where the Government, after reforms were implemented only in April 2013; it is careful consideration, have decided that having a lawyer relatively early days. We are considering carefully the is not always the answer. effects of these reforms. We have not ruled out 11 Legal Aid: Social Welfare Law[LORDS] Legal Services Act 2007 12

[LORD FAULKS] European Union (Definition of Treaties) the possibility of further changes but, at the moment, (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) the various steps we are taking are helping to ensure that those who need representation are receiving it. (Iraq) Order 2014

Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab): My Lords, with regard to DLA, is the Minister aware that if an European Union (Definition of Treaties) appellant submits a paper hearing there is something (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) like a 20% success rate, if the disabled person attends there is something like a 40% success rate at tribunal, (Mongolia) Order 2014 but if they have legal advice, there is something like a 60% success rate? Does this not mean, in all fairness, that legal advice denied is justice denied? European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) Lord Faulks: My Lords, I obviously cannot comment on individual cases. It may be that cases with lawyers (Philippines) Order 2014 proceed only if lawyers have advised that there are reasonable prospects of success. As to those cases which fail, I do not accept that the tribunals are not European Union (Definition of Treaties) able to do justice in the absence of lawyers. Most of (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) the tribunal members are extremely well trained. They (Vietnam) Order 2014 are capable of eliciting the facts. Simply to say that there cannot be justice without lawyers is, with respect, Motions to Approve simplistic. 3.13 pm Lord Deben (Con): Will my noble friend accept that those of us who supported these changes because of Moved by Baroness Warsi the large sums spent on legal aid in this country as That the draft orders laid before the House on compared with other countries would still be concerned 9 June be approved. to ensure that what we thought was going to happen is happening? Is he aware that many of us feel that rather Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Joint than waiting five years before we have the kind of Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in assessment which is surely necessary, as we are dealing Grand Committee on 1 July. with the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society, we really ought to look at this rather earlier? Motions agreed. Lord Faulks: My Lords, I share my noble friend’s concern, as do the Government. My answer was “within five years”, and I take note of what he says: that five Legal Services Act 2007 (Approved years might be regarded as too long. Nevertheless, I Regulator) Order 2014 am sure he would agree with me that we need time to assess these matters, particularly in view of the fact that before April 2013 there was a spike in the number Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from of applications so as to take advantage of the old regime. It will take a little time to assess the true effects Licensing Authority Decisions) (Chartered of the reform. Institute of Patent Attorneys and Institute of Trade Mark Attorneys) Order 2014 Criminal Justice and Courts Bill Order of Consideration Motion Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from 3.12 pm Licensing Authority Decisions) (Institute of Moved by Lord Faulks Chartered Accountants in England and That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Wales) Order 2014 Whole House to which the Criminal Justice and Motions to Approve Courts Bill has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order: 3.13 pm Clauses 1 to 5, Schedule 1, Clause 6, Schedule 2, Moved by Lord Faulks Clauses 7 to 17, Schedule 3, Clauses 18 to 26, Schedule 4, Clauses 27 to 29, Schedule 5, Clause 30, That the draft orders laid before the House on Schedule 6, Clauses 31 to 40, Schedule 7, Clauses 41 9 and 16 June be approved. and 42, Schedule 8, Clauses 43 to 60, Schedule 9, Relevant documents: 2nd and 3rd Reports from Clause 61, Schedule 10, Clauses 62 to 71, Schedule 11, the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Clauses 72 to 78. Considered in Grand Committee on 1 July.

Motion agreed. Motions agreed. 13 Political Parties Order 2014[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 14

Political Parties, Elections and policy leads presented a package of deregulatory Referendums (Civil Sanctions) proposals, which were then reviewed and challenged by Red Tape Challenge Ministers. (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014 Motion to Approve The intention was to reverse the default setting by asking departments to consider the legislation they are responsible for in a fundamentally different way. The 3.13 pm starting point has been that regulation should be Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire delivered in a non-regulatory way, unless there is good That the draft order laid before the House on justification for the Government being involved. The 5 June be approved. Red Tape Challenge sought wide-ranging comment Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Joint on a large number of regulations, from health and Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in safety and environmental regulations, to housing and Grand Committee on 1 July. construction and insolvency law. The final report will be published towards the end of the Parliament, setting out the achievements made by the Red Tape Challenge Motion agreed. and the one-in, two-out programmes in reducing the overall burden of regulation on business in this Parliament. Deregulation Bill Looking to the future, legislation for new statutory Second Reading deregulation targets was announced in the Queen’s Speech. This will require a target to be published for 3.14 pm the removal of regulatory burdens in each parliamentary term, and for government to report transparently against Moved by Lord Wallace of Saltaire that target. During the course of this Parliament, the That the Bill be read a second time. Government have also invested a large amount of time in looking at how the agencies undertake the enforcement Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, this Bill of these regulations, to ensure that they are measured contains important, sensible and proportionate measures and proportionate and not applied arbitrarily without to improve the regulatory regime in the UK in a wide thought to the impact on business. range of areas. It is not a radical, wholesale overhaul The Deregulation Bill is thus a small but important of regulation. The coalition Government are not, of part of the Government’s ongoing process of reducing course, opposed to regulation. This Government believe the number of unjustifiable regulations. Much of what in and will protect the sensible and necessary regulations the Red Tape Challenge has done has been achieved that ensure that the safeguards are in place to protect by alterations to secondary legislation and administrative people and the environment as well as to promote changes. However, during the course of the Red Tape competition and economic growth. Challenge process, many reforms were found that required However, if it is to protect the interests of consumers primary legislation to fulfil. This Bill will create around and the safety of the public effectively, regulation £400 million in savings over 10 years and declutter the must be sensible and proportionate. In many areas in statute book of obsolete or confusing legislation. Those recent years, we have seen regulatory burdens grow who have read all the way through to Schedule 20 will out of all proportion, surpassing what is necessary know that a number of 19th century statutes are and costing businesses and public services additional repealed. millions of pounds. The Government’s aim when coming into office was to reduce the administrative burden on The Government believe that it is good housekeeping business created by regulation, and to encourage enterprise, to review and tidy the statute book to make it easier innovation and, most importantly, the creation of new for the users of the law. Several pieces of legislation jobs, which give this country long-term economic security. were identified through the Red Tape Challenge as being no longer of practical use. The Government are In April 2011, the Prime Minister announced that using the opportunity of the Deregulation Bill to this Government should be the first in modern history repeal those obsolete laws. This is in addition to the to leave office having reduced the overall burden of excellent work done by the Law Commission through regulation rather than increased it. The one-in, one-out its statutory law of repeal process, which principally policy, and later the one-in, two-out policy were introduced focuses on repealing primary obsolete legislation. as one of the major components of the Government’s strategy to achieve this aim, ensuring that the flow of The Bill was first published in draft and underwent new regulations is necessary, effective, justified and pre-legislative scrutiny by a Joint Committee chaired proportionate, in order to minimise unnecessary burdens by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, which reported in on business. December 2013. I look forward to his contribution to The Red Tape Challenge was introduced in April 2011 this debate, as well as those of three other members of to give business and the general public the opportunity that committee: the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, to challenge the Government to get rid of unnecessarily and the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey and Lord Naseby. burdensome regulations. More than 30,000 comments The Joint Committee welcomed the concept of the were crowdsourced online from individuals and businesses, Bill, saying it hoped that there would be more of the harnessing the knowledge of those people faced with same sort in the future. The Joint Committee also understanding and complying with these regulations. suggested that the Bill could benefit from the addition In the light of this public feedback, departmental of some more substantial items when it was introduced. 15 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 16

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] on Londoners to rent out their homes for less than The Government accepted the primary three months at a time; introducing a regime of optional recommendations of the Joint Committee and have building requirements for local authorities to support added 30 new clauses to the Bill. The Bill was introduced the Government’s housing standards review; and a to the other place in January of this year as a carryover clause addressing an unexpected judgment related to Bill. It underwent extensive consideration in Committee tenancy deposits. and two days of debates on Report before being passed to this House. Clauses 35 to 40 remove some of the outdated burdens relating to transport legislation, bringing Some of the key measures in the Bill are as follows. legislation into line with practice; for example, removing Clause 1 exempts self-employed people from Section 3(2) the requirement on local authorities to seek permission of the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974, except from the Secretary of State to establish, alter or remove those who are on a list of high-hazard industries or zebra crossings. This section also includes measures activities, which will be set out in regulation. The limiting the use of CCTV when issuing parking fines proposed change emanates from a recommendation by post and removes the automatic reopening of formal made by Professor Löfstedt in his review of health investigations of marine accidents when new evidence, and safety and will exempt around 2 million self- however trivial, comes to light. employed people from the health and safety legislation that is unnecessary for the work activities they are Clause 43 removes the criminal sanctions which undertaking. currently apply when householders make mistakes presenting waste for collection. A civil penalty regime Clause 2 removes the power from employment tribunals will exist instead when a householder fails to comply to make wider recommendations to employers in with requirements and this causes harm to the local discrimination cases. These have been identified by amenity. The Government believe this to be a more businesses as a burden and are often surplus to proportionate course of action. requirements because businesses, keen to avoid further tribunals, often undertake the necessary actions without Clauses 45 to 48 change the nature of child trust any such recommendations needing to be made. funds to bring them into line with the arrangements of Clauses 3 to 5 implement some of the key the much more widely used junior ISAs. recommendations of the Richard review, simplifying Clauses 52 to 59 make reasonable and rational what apprenticeships are and the process by which alterations to the regulations around alcohol and they are developed and awarded, and providing the entertainment which have been discussed on a number legislative basis for a new payment system to route of occasions in this Chamber since I became a Member. funding directly to employers so that they are more These include sensible changes such as removing the responsive to their needs. requirement on community film clubs to obtain a Clauses 21 to 26 implement the recommendations licence to exhibit films, while maintaining all the of the independent stakeholder working group on regulations related to age-related restrictions; and creating unrecorded rights of way that require primary legislation. a new light-touch form of authorisation under the They are part of a carefully balanced package of Licensing Act 2003 for community groups and certain reforms that is supported by the full range of interests businesses to sell small amounts of alcohol. This on rights of way, from the Ramblers to the Country section also commits the Government to undertake a Land and Business Association. Some noble Lords review of the alternatives to criminal sanctions for may have seen the useful briefing from the Ramblers non-payment of TV licences. that reached my inbox this morning. It is a remarkable consensus around the particularly emotive and contentious Clauses 79 to 81 make some changes to legislation but important issue of public rights of way. to make it easier for users of law. These are the power to spell out dates in legislation, enacting part of the The reforms will make the procedures for recording Government’s good law initiative by creating a power or changing rights of way more streamlined and flexible to combine different forms of subordinate legislation, but will also give local authorities more scope to use and a power to use ambulatory references for international their judgment in dealing with insubstantial or irrelevant shipping instruments. applications and objections, and enable the development of locally negotiated solutions. They will help towards Clauses 83 to 86 create a statutory duty for non- completion of the definitive map and statement by economic regulators to consider economic growth when the cut-off date, in current legislation, of 2026. There carrying out their functions. This duty will be are also provisions to enable the right to apply for an supplementary to, and will not supplant, the regulators’ extinguishment or diversion to be extended to all other statutory obligations. It will make them take landowners, while enabling any public funding economic growth into account as they exercise their expended in that process to be recovered in full where regulatory functions. Guidance on this has just been an application is solely in the landowner’s interest. published. I hope that a copy has reached the The provisions fit broadly with the Government’s aim Opposition Front Bench. There is a copy available in of reducing regulation, of smaller government and of the Library. giving more power to local authorities and local people The wide-ranging nature of the Bill should emphasise to resolve disputes. the Government’s comprehensive consideration of all Clauses 29 to 34 relate to housing and development areas of regulation to ensure that regulation is matters. These include: reinstating the original qualifying proportionate and necessary. Most of the measures period of three years for right to buy; relaxing restrictions are relatively technical and not politically contentious. 17 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 18

No doubt we shall be told in the course of Second All Governments have a duty to reduce unnecessary Reading that some are considered contentious. As regulation at every opportunity, but unfortunately this such, this is an important step towards relieving businesses, Government’s approach to regulation is simplistic. individuals and public sector organisations of unnecessary Smart regulation underpins fair markets and can level administrative burdens, freeing them up to pursue the playing field for small firms and new entrants—the economic growth for Britain without excessive regulation. very people and businesses that create new jobs and The Government look forward to the detailed and prosperity. Smart regulation saves lives. For example, expert scrutiny that this House can offer. I beg to it is a matter of great pride for all of us that the 2012 move that the Bill be read a second time. Olympic infrastructure was built without the loss of one life. Regulation played a part in that. The men and women working on those construction sites knew the 3.28 pm value of having clear health and safety regulations in place. Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): I thank the Smart regulation can help to drive innovation and Minister for introducing the Deregulation Bill today growth. Yes, regulation is a concern for some businesses, and look forward to the many speeches to come. With but most sensible business people understand that more than 30 noble Lords listed to speak, I am sure rules are needed to protect people’s safety and rights, that every clause and schedule will get some attention promote competition and prevent employers being as we start what I suspect will be a long job, stretching undercut by those who do not play by the rules. As the out, perhaps, until the end of the year. We intend to Federation of Small Businesses has noted, the concerns scrutinise very carefully this rather mixed bag that the of business are often more about how regulations are Government have put before us. I am joined on the developed and introduced, how they are enforced, and Front Bench for the majority of the Bill by my noble the existence of duplication and overlapping rules that friends Lady Hayter and Lord Tunnicliffe, but others waste their time. will have to come in with their expertise on areas of the Bill. When in power, Labour sought to reduce regulation I join the Minister in thanking noble Lords who by introducing the Better Regulation Commission and served on the Joint Committee on pre-legislative scrutiny an ongoing better regulation programme, and made a of the Bill, particularly its chair, the noble Lord, Lord number of legislative changes to reduce the cost of Rooker, and my noble friend Lady Andrews. It has regulation. Our programmes for simplifying regulation clearly improved considerably since its first publication. delivered £3 billion of savings to business per year. In Indeed, we will hear reference in the debate to how contrast, the impact statement for the draft Bill much change there has been, since, as the Minister estimated that it would save businesses and civil society said, some 30 new clauses have been added since the a mere £10 million over 10 years, although the Bill left the Commons. That suggests that, in some Minister has said that the figure is now £400 million senses, the pre-legislative scrutiny could only have over 10 years. Perhaps he could outline where the partial effect, sadly, since a lot of the Bill, almost additional savings have come from. These figures underline 30%, has emerged since it finished its work. that, while we all agree that unnecessary regulation can be a burden on business, a sensible approach to Although the name of the Bill is the Deregulation deregulation is about more than repealing one or two Bill, it contains a number of measures which would minor statutes. properly be regarded as re-regulation. It might be helpful at some point if the Minister could explain By my count, the 86 clauses in, and 20 schedules to, precisely, perhaps by means of a chart—he is good at the Bill cover at least 12 major Whitehall departments, these things—what is deregulatory, what is re-regulatory and some measures apply to Scotland, Wales and and what is simply shifting burdens around the various Northern Ireland. There are some proposals in this places that have to undertake them. That would be rag-tag hotchpotch of a Bill that are welcome and that helpful to us as we progress through the Bill. we do not oppose. However, there are some rather I am sure that your Lordships’ House enjoyed the disturbing proposals hidden beneath the knitting yarn Minister’s attempt at making this Bill sound central to and the piles of redundant dog collars which we will future economic growth. However, I hope that it will vigorously oppose. not come as too much of a surprise to him if I tell him There are fresh attacks on employment rights, with that deregulating the sale of knitting yarns, freeing the removal of yet more powers from employment our children to buy their own chocolate liqueurs, tribunals. Those are measures that the Government’s decriminalising household waste and abolishing dog own impact assessment claims will have a negligible collars are not measures that are going to generate effect on businesses or may even cost them money. We jobs or deliver prosperity. If your Lordships will forgive will not support any new attacks on hard-working me for saying it, some of the clauses and schedules are people. barking mad. I turn to the first part of the Bill. Exempting People up and down the country are being hit by self-employed people in certain industries from health the cost of living crisis as their wages do not rise at the and safety regulations will simply create confusion same rate as prices, yet instead of measures to stimulate about who is covered and who is not. The Institution the economy, the Government give us this Christmas of Occupational Safety and Health is opposed to that, tree Bill to end all Christmas tree Bills—forgetting, of calling it, course, that one of the few things that are not dealt “a very short-sighted and misleading move, it won’t actually help with in it are Christmas trees. anyone; it won’t support business; but it will cause general confusion”. 19 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 20

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] The decriminalisation of waste will apparently reduce Even the Federation of Small Businesses, which supports the regulatory burden on households, but it may increase the change in principle, says that there is a question the burden on local authorities, and particularly affect mark over how effective this clause will be, as it their ability to reach their recycling targets. We have crucially depends on how well drafted and extensive been told, in a helpful note by the councils, that the “prescribed description” list is. We understand operating standard collection arrangements is crucial that the HSE will consult on this later this year, but I to helping councils and residents further increase recycling put it to the Minister that it will be impossible to levels to meet EU targets. Why remove that power? proceed to scrutinise this clause if we do not know The Deregulation Bill also removes the offence, punishable precisely what the prescribed list contains. The draft by a £1,000 fine, of not complying with prescribed that we have seen raises more questions than it solves. arrangements for refuse collection and converts this to I hope the Minister will ensure that we have a complete a £60 civil penalty. The current arrangements are used list by the time we get to the Committee stage. proportionately and principally as a deterrent by councils. The proposed civil fine will not serve as an effective As the Minister mentioned, the Bill will also remove deterrent and will undermine the work of councils to employment tribunals’ power to make wider encourage and support residents to increase recycling recommendations to employers who have been judged rates. The new trigger for a penalty is that the resident’s to have discriminated against someone unlawfully. Such behaviour is, recommendations are only advisory, but they promote “detrimental to any amenities of the locality”. good working practice. Why are the Government trying to limit the ability of tribunals to make observations That is a novel test, with no legal precedents to define which might help to drive up standards? What are they it. It almost certainly would not allow a council to afraid of? The House of Commons Library considered enforce, for example, recycling arrangements which the impact assessment for that measure and found may be needed to get best value for money from a that, despite the Minister labelling it deregulatory and waste collection contract. counting it as an “out”under the Government’s arbitrary Speaking of fines, we will want to discuss in some one-in, two-out system, business will incur a cost as a detail the thinking behind the Government’s proposals result of the removal of the power. What sort of to decriminalise failure to pay the licence fee collected Government proudly propose a deregulatory measure by the BBC. We agree that it makes sense to consider that actually costs businesses money? this issue in the round, but we want to be assured that the terms of reference for the review will be debated in Building on Labour’s progress in government, the both Houses of Parliament and that the results of the Bill seeks to introduce a growth duty on regulators, as review will feed into the charter and licence fee discussions the Minister explained. This duty will compel them to and not be separated from that process. “have regard” to the promotion of economic growth when carrying out their functions and to carry them We will look closely at the measures in the Bill to out in a necessary and proportionate way. We support deregulate taxis and public hire vehicles outside London. the aims behind this duty and clearly the additional The Government’s proposed reforms to the taxi and principle that regulators should go about their business minicab trade will enable people without a minicab in a proportionate way. I received a letter from the licence to drive one when it is “off duty”, end annual noble Lord this morning together with some draft checks on drivers’ licences, and allow minicab operators guidance. I thank him for that. But I have not had time to subcontract bookings to other firms in other areas. to absorb it or check whether it covers our concern There has been widespread criticism of the Government’s that the duty does not inhibit or contradict the primary last-minute decision to insert these reforms into the function of any regulator, particularly those dealing Deregulation Bill. Campaigners, industry bodies and with social issues and the EHRC. unions are also warning that these changes will have severe safety implications, as local councils do not have the powers to enforce the changes safely. We have concerns about other parts of the Bill. Housing is a critical part of the cost of living crisis for The Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which campaigns for families up and down the country, so should there not better personal safety, has raised concerns that enabling be a coherent, long-term approach, rather than ad hoc anyone to drive a licensed minicab will provide, tinkering? The number of homes built for social rent “greater opportunity for those intent on preying on women”. has fallen to just over 7,700, the lowest in 20 years—indeed, since records began—and a fall of 75% from 2009-10. The Local Government Association has said that, At the same time, the Government have pledged to “it is imperative that the Government withdraws these plans” replace housing sold under the right to buy, but there is mounting evidence that they are failing to ensure to ensure passenger safety. All this when we have now that this actually happens. In light of this, why do the received the major review that the Law Commission Government refuse to undertake a review of the has been carrying out since 2011 on taxi and private effectiveness of the current right-to-buy system and hire deregulation. The law as it stands—both in London the impact that their right-to-buy policy is having on and Plymouth with its bespoke legislation, and in the the supply of affordable housing? What is the rationale rest of England and Wales with its different legal for the change in planning requirements for offering framework—is built on the premise of broadly local short-term lets in London, which may have fire and trade in local areas and allows each local authority to personal safety implications? regulate the taxi and private hire trade in its own area. 21 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 22

Crucially, it gives local enforcement officers sufficient need to be fully funded. Is that another spending powers to enforce the existing law over the drivers, commitment in a time of austerity? That is yet another vehicles and operators in each respective area. nonsensical policy in this rather disjointed Bill. The Government seem to have been caught out on an The report of the Law Commission, which specifically unworkable proposal permitting dogs to be sold without considered deregulatory measures, would set up new collars before their own compulsory micro-chipping trading conditions, freeing private hire operators and requirements have been introduced. drivers to work in a national environment, and for both taxis and the private hire industry to compete on Good regulation protects consumers’ and employees’ a pricing basis that the public would understand. rights, ensures that our industries play their part in However, it also proposed making sufficient changes moving to a green and sustainable future, keeps citizens to the enforcement regime such that local authority safe and saves lives. It is important that it is effective enforcement officers, in particular, specially trained and enforceable. Challenges arise when ill-thought stopping officers, would have new powers to enforce through regulation has unforeseen consequences or is the proposed legislation over vehicles, drivers or operators, interpreted bureaucratically and inflexibly. It is fair to regardless of whether they were registered in their say that the overall reaction to the Bill has been licensing authority area or had come from outside. underwhelming—lukewarm at best. Ministers are delighted with it, but that is because it seems to be We have a strange situation. The Bill’s proposals, about removing burdens as much on Ministers as on which were introduced without proper consultation, business. By my count, half the proposals in the Bill will have to be repealed when DfT brings forward, as it will take away burdens from Ministers and the intends to do, the Law Commission proposals. That Government, and fewer than half will remove them begins to look more like a response to special pleading from business. than a genuine attempt to deregulate. I thought that Once again, the Government’s rhetoric extends far this was a deregulatory Bill, not a double regulation beyond their reach. When we get into Committee, and Bill. on Report, the Opposition will seek to remove or amend the iniquitous clauses in the Bill and to improve The Bill contains a controversial blanket ban on the the others. We look forward to the journey. use of CCTV for parking offences, something that the LGA, the British Parking Association, cycling groups, head teachers and charities representing blind and disabled people have argued against, while businesses 3.42 pm and motoring groups offered mixed responses, with some motoring groups calling the ban a retrograde Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD): My Lords, it is step and some businesses stressing that CCTV could strange having a Second Reading debate when the remain beneficial at particular times and on particular principles of the Bill seem fairly straightforward and occasions. the argument will all be over the detail of the matters to be deregulated, which are more properly dealt with We will be supporting the proposals in the Bill for in Committee public footpaths. The present system for recording The Liberal Democrats believe that regulation plays public paths on definitive maps is not operating with a vital legislative function and can be hugely important the speed and efficiency needed to ensure that all the in protecting people, businesses and other interests, rights of way are properly recorded, which would give but we are critical of overcentralisation in our national certainty to all. Government and we certainly accept the need, particularly when recovering from a deep and damaging recession, Finally, as we are out walking, I come back to dogs. to look critically at regulations to simplify and eliminate Noble Lords will be aware of the old filmmaking saw, those which are over-complex and outdated. We know, which said that you should aim never to work with too, that many of the jobs coming in the recovery are children or animals. I wonder whether that holds true being created in the SME sector and among the self- for legislation too. I have a strong feeling that this part employed. That is critical to future competitiveness, is going to cause an awful lot of trouble. At the flexibility and creativity in our economy. We supported moment, dogs must always be sold with a collar and the Red Tape Challenge and the one-in, one-out system tag. The Government announced in February 2013 for new regulations and the extension to the one-in, that they were going to introduce micro-chipping for two-out policy. We accept that free markets do not all dogs in April 2016. The provision in the Bill, simply happen; we need regulation to ensure fair however, will create an 18-month gap between when competition and free markets. Much has to be done to the Bill is passed and when those rules come in. The simplify and reduce regulation as standardisation is LGA opposes the clause on animal welfare grounds. If increasingly achieved in the EU. a dog becomes lost at present, anyone who finds it is The Government having focused on deregulation, able to read the information on its collar. Members of the Bill is an inevitable consequence. We may argue in the public will not be able to read a microchip and this House over some of the detail, but the direction determine where an animal belongs. That will make it and objectives we strongly share. There are a number harder for members of the public to contact owners of measures that we welcome and have strongly supported. when they come across a stray dog and increase the One of the great successes of the coalition, building likelihood that people will deliver stray dogs to councils. on the foundations left by the previous Government, That would constitute a new burden and would surely has been the growth in apprenticeships, with more 23 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 24

[LORD STONEHAM OF DROXFORD] be done at the same time as the charter review. The key than 2 million created in five years at a time of strong should be to look at how any new system can improve economic adversity. The Bill seeks to put in place on the current low level of evasion and reduce the the new framework for delivering apprenticeships £111 million cost of collection. The BBC cannot stop proposed by the Richard review. The review proposed people using its services without paying the licence fee, a new, simplified structure of apprenticeships and unlike its competitors, such as Sky. We should be aware funding to give employers a greater say in their structure that if the BBC reverts to the utilities’ record of dealing and content. This new approved apprenticeship scheme with bad debt, it will lose £200 million of revenue. means that apprenticeships will be delivered to a recognised We welcome the Government’s commitment to standard, with the Government funding their part of reducing and simplifying unnecessary regulation. It is the training aspects through HMRC. The Secretary of needed to improve the country’s competitive advantage State will have the power to amend the apprenticeship and that should be a preoccupation of all elements of standard agreed with employers. Flexible, more efficient government and, indeed, the country as a whole, and simpler administration will mean that authorities particularly in relation to small businesses, which often and employers can concentrate on updating hold the burden of regulation. This is one small step apprenticeships and improving standards. We strongly to grasp the need for simpler legislation, which does support this measure. not hold back the creative and dynamic aspects of small businesses. Small steps will help but we will need I also support the efforts to help local communities many more. run functions in their communities without undue regulation. It is obviously long overdue for us to look at the alcohol rules for these events. I give credit to the Minister in the Home Office, Norman Baker, who has helped to push through some of these reforms in the 3.49 pm Bill. The sale of limited alcohol at community events The Lord Bishop of Truro: My Lords, I think that I is to be deregulated. The exhibition of films in community need to begin with an apology. I am grateful to the premises not requiring a licence, as it does currently, noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for drawing our attention may be a small measure but is clearly long overdue. to matters relating to dog collars. I was not going to The deregulation will encourage community participation refer to them but I will make sure that one of my and, indeed, promote our creative industries. colleagues does when we get to Committee. I have no more interest than any other Member of We also support the whole complex deregulation this House in regulation for its own sake. In fact the on rights of way. I expect the devil is in the detail. I New Testament, on the principle that, suspect more differences will be revealed as we go on. However, we clearly needed to ease the process of “where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom”, recognising public rights of way and dealing with specifically warns people against submitting to unnecessary registering historic rights of way, which now seems to regulations in matters of religion. This is something have the support of the principal stakeholders. Therefore, on which I will comment when we get to York later we support deregulation in this area. this week for the meeting of the General Synod. In the same spirit, I welcome many of the provisions There are, however, some matters that will need in this very miscellaneous Bill. The exemption of attention when we get to the detail. Health and safety members of the Sikh community from the requirement has already been mentioned. With the growth of self- to wear safety helmets in carefully defined circumstances employment, we need to make sure that the new has been consistently asked for by that community—and provisions excluding the self-employed, except those since the Health and Safety Executive supports it, so in dangerous occupations, do not simply create greater do I. The additional test required from driving instructors complexity rather than give a general commitment to with a disability is unnecessary: every applicant should good health and safety practice. We need to look at the be tested for their suitability to do the job on the same detail of this and be convinced by it. On the right to basis. Many other provisions update past legislation buy, there is no great principle at stake in reducing the on the basis of change in technology or of circumstances. qualifying period from five to three years, although I The fact that we can use more sophisticated and think we probably would have preferred to see how the reliable equipment to test drivers for drink or drugs at current measures stand up over time. However, we do the roadside, for example, is very welcome, and it is not want to see social-needs housing simply become a reasonable to permit healthcare professionals, for whom way of finding an incentive to home ownership. The this sort of work is normal in other professional objective of that housing should be to serve social contexts, to carry out such tests. needs. The key issue is whether we will use the proceeds I will comment on the closing of prisons, even from the social housing sold to add to the housing though I am the bishop for a county in which there is stock, rather than diminish the social housing stock as not a single prison. The removal of the requirement we have done over the past 30 years, except in the past for a statutory order to close a prison, when none is couple of years of this Government. needed to open one, is logical enough. However, we should not let this pass without observing that closing On the licence fee, clauses provide for an appropriate a prison is not a trivial matter, in at least two respects. review of penalties for non-payment. We accept that it First, the present wave of prison closures is shutting is a review but we are not necessarily being committed long-standing smaller prisons with a strong track record to how that will be done in the future. Ideally, it should of working constructively with offenders and building 25 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 26 instead large establishments, whose physical fabric is experience of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, to whose doubtless much superior to the old buildings but report these proposals owe their origin, and his concern whose effectiveness in actually reducing reoffending is, that regulatory functions should not place any unnecessary to say the least, unproven. check on economic growth. Nevertheless, the integrity and independence of regulators is important. They Secondly, closing prisons has a real and often negative come in many varieties, of course, but at least some of effect on the communities in which the prisons are set. them stand for objective principles of justice, in many There are cities where the closure of a prison has not cases articulated in international law, and all of them only cost jobs but worsened planning blight in that must have regard to law. For many of them, also, their area. There are also rural communities that have been independence is important, so a Bill that gives Ministers hard hit by short-notice closures. the power to issue guidance on how regulatory functions Some would regard any relaxation of rules about can be exercised so as to promote economic growth alcohol as a bad thing. As has been commented already, looks like a prima facie compromising of independence. the small revisions in this Bill to the licensing arrangements Of course I am not suggesting that anyone in this for the sale of alcohol at informal and irregular community House regards economic growth as good in all cases. occasions seem a prudent step, which will not catapult A burgeoning industry in illegal drugs would be agreed church halls irresistibly into the centre of the excesses by all not to be good—but what about, for example, of the night-time economy. growth in the alcohol industry or the tobacco industry? Judgments here would be more nuanced. Then there is I also welcome the measures on rights of way. the gambling industry. Current government policy These will help to retain and protect indefinitely those tends to see the gambling industry primarily as an rights of way that have existed for centuries but do not engine of economic growth. To place the Gambling necessarily appear on the definitive map. I am much Commission, for example, under a statutory duty of less enthusiastic, however, about the removal in this kind is questionable. In general, the question of Schedule 19 of a requirement to consult statutory whether or to what extent a particular type of economic bodies such as Natural England when proposing new activity is a legitimate driver of economic growth is a by-laws, orders or regulations. No longer will there be moral one that should not just be subsumed under a a requirement to consult, catch-all principle that regulators should promote “bodies whose statutory functions include giving advice to Ministers economic growth. The prevention of damaging or on matters relating to environmental conservation”. unjust economic activity, surely, is equally germane to their mission. In total, there are 15 instances of the removal of the statutory duty to consult, but very few of these proposals relate to obsolete bodies or legislation. There are two aspects of the Bill which may be 3.57 pm moving deregulation in the wrong direction. First, as Lord Fowler (Con): My Lords, it is a great pleasure has been said, there is the removal from employment to follow the right reverend Prelate, who raised some tribunals of the power to make “wider recommendations”. important issues, not least his final point about gambling. The task of the tribunal would be solely to respond to My general position is that one of the most effective the situation of the particular person in front of it. If actions that any Government can take is to look at the there were any evidence that tribunals had exceeded regulations that are in force to see if they are relevant their natural remit by ranging over issues remote from in the modern day. It may be that they were entirely the one brought to them, there might be cause for sensible 20, 30 or 40 years previously when they were concern. There seems to be no such evidence. introduced, but the question is whether today they still have the same force. It is not only that they may have If some injustice done to a particular employee is no relevance; it may be that they also hold back found not to be a one-off event but to be due to an business development and, above all, prevent the element of unfairness built into a policy or practice of development of services that are to the benefit of the the organisation, the most economical way to deal public. with that is for the employment tribunal to point it out. For example, if an employee has a just complaint I will give three very short examples from my own of direct discrimination, the tribunal may well deal experience. When I was Transport Secretary in 1979, with that as an isolated incident. If, however, the case we had an elaborate system for controlling the provision is one of indirect discrimination, it is most likely that of coach services up and down the country. If I there is something wrong embedded in the way in wanted to run a coach service from Birmingham to which the organisation works. This clause would prevent London, I had to go to the traffic commissioners and the tribunal from making a sensible recommendation ask for permission. Invariably my application would in such a case. It is unclear how such a point, made at be opposed by British Rail and the National Bus an early stage by an employment tribunal, could amount Company on the grounds that they already had services. to an illegitimate burden on a business when it may Frequently the traffic commissioners would find for well remove the need for a more complex resolution of them. In other words, the decision rested with the the problem further downstream. commissioners, not with the travelling public. We abolished those restrictions and the result has been a very fast- Clauses 73 to 76 impose a duty on regulators to developing coach service in this country, which has have regard to the desirability of promoting economic meant a tremendous addition in cheap coach travel, growth. I have great respect for the judgment and particularly for young people, up and down the land. 27 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 28

[LORD FOWLER] The most obvious question about that is, “What on The second example is that when I was Health earth is it doing in this Bill in the first place?”. We have Secretary, we reviewed the regulations governing opticians. a whole period of debate on the future of the licence Competition was limited. It all seemed very much, fee and all the other broadcasting issues that go with frankly, to the benefit of the optician and not of the the royal charter. customer. Again, we deregulated, with the effect that The Government’s reply is that we cannot wait, but today there is a very competitive market, which is also when it comes to the future of the BBC Trust, virtually to the benefit of the public. everybody agrees that it is a completely outdated and, The third example is perhaps the best known: the dare I say it—well, “useless” may be putting it a bit abolition of the regulations and restrictions of the high, but it is certainly an outdated body. Dock Labour Scheme, about which my noble friend Lord Brabazon also knows a great deal. I do not doubt the original intention and justification, but the Lord Rooker (Lab): Did the noble Lord say “useless”? days of exploitation of labour had gone, and the trouble was that the regulations were standing in the way of port development and new employment opportunities. Lord Fowler: Yes; I said “useless”. We are told that I remember going to Liverpool and being told—lectured, we cannot consider that, and that we will go ahead perhaps—on the need for me to direct sea traffic to with the appointment of a new chairman for a body the Mersey. This was self-evidently not something which, self-evidently, has the executioner’s axe hanging which it was in my power to do, but what we could do over it. was to take away the restrictions. The result was that The process of change here is not beyond criticism. new business has developed in ports all round this We set up a review of an unspecified nature, and then, country. We have seen an utter transformation of that depending on the review—the result of which, obviously, industry. we know nothing whatever about—we delegate to the I am, therefore, a great supporter of sensible Secretary of State the power to change the law, not by deregulation—and, indeed, in one or two areas, which primary legislation but by regulation. However well perhaps we can come to in Committee, I would go intentioned this clause may be, I do not believe that further. It encourages jobs when all too often regulation giants of the past such as Enoch Powell or Michael destroys them. As far as I can judge, the vast majority Foot would have approved of it as a measure and as a of the measures in this Christmas tree Bill—and I way of developing legislation in this House. agree with that description—will be beneficial to the Therefore, self-evidently, there is much to discuss in public. It is the interests of the consumer that must Committee. Indeed, you might say that the Bill provides always be pre-eminent. the whole justification for this House, because we have Having set out my belief, I have two questions. The the time to do that while quite clearly the other House first is on health and safety. I acknowledge that the does not. As I said, I strongly approve of the direction Government have sought to be careful here, but I am of travel of the Bill, but I also register that the detail concerned that too much of the public debate starts deserves careful scrutiny and debate. from the premise that health and safety legislation is almost by definition unnecessary. I dispute this. For 4.06 pm many years I worked in the aggregates industry. In the 1930s quarries were notorious for their accident record. Lord Rooker: My Lords, I was very pleased to chair Even in the postwar years their record was not particularly the Joint Committee on the draft Bill between October good. and December last year, because I was coming to the end of my four years on the Food Standards Agency, The irony was that, all too often, the injuries concerned so I had not done much committee work in the House. people who were trying to help; they were trying to get I volunteered to do the job that nobody else wanted to into motion a machine that had stuck and were then do, and that was the one that came up. However, I drawn into it. What was needed was a culture of must record that in my view and that of members of safety. To its great credit, the industry has taken giant the committee, the Joint Committee received the most steps to respond to that. When I was chairman of one exceptional support from the clerks in both Houses, company and then on the board of an international and we let their respective bosses know about that at company, health and safety was the first issue on the the end of our deliberations. agenda, before profits and the results of that particular month or quarter. By and large, I am pleased with the Government’s response to the report. The Joint Committee ceased to I think that, if we believe in wider share ownership exist once it had reported on 16 December last year, so for the benefit of staff, we should be in favour of I only speak for myself on the Bill. Ministers removed measures to protect the safety of staff. The Government and amended material, and carried out further say that their measures will not harm safety. I say only consultations as recommended by the Joint Committee. that, in Committee—and I echo one or two points that The key removal was of the massive Henry VIII have been made—we should be given more information clause, which was described as an outstanding example on the self-employed occupations that will be excluded of its type, and which would have caused your Lordships’ by this legislation. House much waste of time. The lawyers and the My noble friend Lord Gardiner will not be in the constitutionalists would have loved it, but it would least surprised that my second question concerns measures have been a complete and utter waste of time. It is not to decriminalise non-payment of the BBC licence fee. there any more. It was a bit cheeky that it was in the 29 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 30

Bill in the first place; Ministers and civil servants need been offered up by the departments. Not a single to be on notice not to try to bypass Parliament again subject in that schedule was offered by the departments in the way they tried in the draft Bill. I do not say that because of uninterested Ministers and lazy Permanent out of any romantic attachment to the House of Secretaries. However, in this case it is the result of Commons, as the Minister patronisingly implied the Cabinet Office Ministers saying to their colleagues in previous time I spoke, but because that is not a good other departments, “We want three or four subjects way to do legislation. That is the fact of the matter that are no longer of use and we want them in a Bill”. with Henry VIII clauses. When Ministers do that for colleagues, the department then takes an interest because the Ministers are interested. I will refer to just a handful of matters in this We then end up with Schedule 20. That is not a good Christmas tree Bill. It is true that, unlike most Bills, way to deal with legislation. the Long Title allows Members to hang any subject they like on this one. If the House of Commons was It appeared as though there was an attempt to full of campaigning Members of Parliament at the bypass the Law Commission. I do not say that in a present time, they could have had a field day on critical way, but that is what it looked like. I plead economic, social and constitutional issues that could guilty, by the way, because I have been there, so I know have lasted for months and months. However, it would what happens; there is some guilt there. The Law be quite wrong for this House to do that, because we Commission has been doing this work for 60 years, are unelected, and I will not give examples of the kind and there is only one occasion when it recommend of Bills, because it will only give noble Lords ideas. I abolishing a subject that it later turned out was still in would have liked to have done some of that myself, but use. It has a good track record on this; both Houses the opportunity was not taken by the elected House, trust the Law Commission. Can the Minister confirm so the chance has been lost. whether the issues in Schedule 20 have been checked again? The Joint Committee concentrated on areas we had I will briefly mention two or three points from the submissions on—several hundred of them, although Bill. I strongly support non-economic regulators having half were on the rights of way issue, which is a to take growth into account. I accept there will be separate issue. Our view was that if that was amended problems regarding the Equalities and Human Rights in any way and dealt with again, it should be a Commission, but the growth duty must complement separate Defra Bill. We think the package in the Bill and not override the regulator’s existing duties. That is should be maintained, because it is an agreed one, what we were informed would be the case. At all times which is important. it is essential that consumer and public confidence is maintained in the relevant regulator. There should be two procedures to assist our scrutiny as the Bill comes to this House. They are not new; I I used an example in the committee from when I raised them before the previous general election. First, was at the Food Standards Agency—before the Bill we should have a list of subjects that have been added saw the light of day. We constantly pointed out that we to the Bill after pre-legislative scrutiny and which regulated on the basis of risk, not size. However, we therefore have not been subject to pre-legislative had no problem embracing a growth duty, simply scrutiny, and confirmation that they have been because the meat industry cannot export to Russia consulted on. I do not think anything should be added and China, for example, where requirements on abattoirs to the Bill that has not had a consultation. It is quite are greater than in the EU, unless the FSA has regulated right to add things after pre-legislative scrutiny, but and can sign off those businesses. We encouraged they have to be consulted on. Secondly, a list of areas growth because we ensured those businesses conformed should be set out where the Commons, under the to the rules and requirements of, for example, the timetable of the Bill, has not done its work. It has not Russian Government. That was an important element. discussed much of the Bill. The draft Bill had 65 clauses; At another time we said no to the idea of stopping it now has 91. The draft Bill had 132 pages; it now regulating kitchens in village halls. Kitchens in village has 204. As I said, I have no problem with extra halls can kill people if they are dirty, just as kitchens in subjects being added—I know at least one which I large hotels can. It is not a question of size, but of risk. fully support that will be added by the Government It can therefore be adequately embraced by non-economic and which has been subject to consultation. That is a regulators. key element. There are two or three other changes. I am coming to the end of my speech and I will be brief. We did not Although this is not dealt with in the Bill, the Joint take any evidence on the clause on marine accident Committee had views on the use and abuse of the Law investigations. We ought to look at that a bit more Commission, from which we took evidence. It was closely as it goes through this House. We should look crystal clear that there was massive tension between at removing the automatic duty to reorder a hearing in the Law Commission and Ministers in the Cabinet the light of new evidence. The cases of the “Gaul”, Office. The plain fact is that Ministers in general take which sank in 1975 and was discovered in 1997, and no interest at all in the Law Commission’s trawl tidying the MV “Derbyshire”, which sank in 1980 and was up Bills every three years. As such, the departments do found in 1994, are both highly relevant. not take any interest. For example, when the Law Commission did its trawl of departments in 2011, the I shall not say much about health and safety, although legislation listed as being “no longer of practical use” we took a lot of evidence on it. Like the noble Lord, in Schedule 20—originally Schedule 16—could have Lord Fowler, I had an interest in this. My maiden 31 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 32

[LORD ROOKER] it is a significant interest and I suspect that it is going speech in the other place 40 years ago was on industrial to take up a considerable amount of time in the safety. All my experience had been in manufacturing months ahead. industry, with people doing things wrong, guards not Until May this year, I also had the huge pleasure of working and so on. I realise that that is not necessarily serving as a representative of European Union regional covered here but it is the culture that is important. I and local government on a European Commission remember that I sat as a member of the Standing body with the rather grand title of the High Level Committee on the health and safety Bill, which resulted Group of Independent Stakeholders on Administrative from the work of the Robens committee. Industry in Burdens. It was intended to deal with the never-ending this country had a disastrous record on safety in task of trying to reduce the regulatory burdens imposed general. It has vastly improved over the years and we by the European Union. I learnt quite a lot of things do not want to turn the clock back. there but I learnt two in particular as we went from, I do not think that the Government have got the first, the Better Regulation programme to Smart legislation right on insolvency practitioners. Clearly Regulation and, in my closing months, to Regulatory there was a massive difference in the evidence from Fitness, known as REFIT. First, I learnt that, as the Ministers and from the insolvency profession. I do not Minister said in his introduction, better regulation think that the Bill should be left as it is, with three most certainly does not mean no regulation; it means choices. In most cases, practitioners told us that they appropriate regulation that is fit for purpose—and a cannot work out what kind of case it will be until they purpose that is both necessary and proportionate. The start working on it. It might look like a private case other thing that I learnt was that somewhere there was but, at the same time, it might also be corporate. always someone who thought that those regulations Therefore, there is a real problem and it will lead to were necessary. Those people are still there and they confusion. This needs to be cleared up. I think that the still think that the regulations are necessary. There is Government have got it wrong here. always a reason for having regulations and there are The Government have also been stubborn in Clause 61 always some people who think that they are good and in abolishing the powers of the Senior President of necessary. Tribunals to report on standards. Frankly, I think that In the time available, I simply want to highlight just tribunal standards ought to be reported on by the one or two causes of concern in the Bill. Overall, I senior president so that Parliament knows whether the certainly join my noble friend Lord Stoneham in tribunals are up to the job. That work is not burdensome. welcoming the Bill. I know from my work in Brussels Likewise, as has already been referred to, the Government that the Red Tape Challenge—one in, one out and, have persisted in getting rid of the power of employment even more particularly, the one-in, two-out process of tribunals to make wider recommendations. I think the UK Government—was very much admired in the that that is a mistake and that it ought to be looked at European Union. We spoke on it quite often and had again. presentations from the UK Government on its As for the new material, the Government have only effectiveness. There were even attempts to try to introduce themselves to blame here. I am not complaining about it to the European Commission, which was sometimes the new material, but we have to do our job properly. just a little less enthusiastic in its support. This legislation will affect millions of people in their daily lives in very diffuse ways that cannot be pinned I come from the point of view of welcoming the down because it is not just one piece of legislation that direction and intention of this Bill—there are many is relevant here. As we have heard, a massive amount parts that we will certainly welcome—but, inevitably will affect at least a dozen departments. in debate and in Committee, we talk about those things on which we are less happy and rather more This House has to be given the opportunity and the concerned. The ones that I particularly want to highlight time to do its job, particularly on the clauses not dealt in the few minutes available today start with Clauses 9, with by the House of Commons due to the timetabling 10 and 11 and concerns over private hire measures. of legislation. That is not a complaint; it is the reality Here, I shall quote from a letter from the police and and it is what we are here for. We are a revising crime commissioner for Dorset to my honourable Chamber—we are not here to start this Bill—and this friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole, will be a really good test of whether we do our job who unfortunately received it just after the Bill left the properly. Whether we are elected or unelected does not House of Commons. The commissioner was alerted to make any difference. the provisions by the police and crime commissioner for Greater Manchester and feels that, 4.17 pm “an unintended consequence of these measures is to potentially Lord Tope (LD): My Lords, I very much echo the increase the risk of crime and incidents, such as serious assaults closing comments of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I and thefts, following a night out”. begin by declaring my interest as a vice-president of We can go into more detail on that in Committee, but the Local Government Association. That is quite a he seeks support in lobbying for the removal of these substantial interest for this Bill because local authorities clauses and, are the regulatory authority responsible for implementing “instead, for the introduction of a dedicated Taxi Bill along the many of these and other regulations. They have people lines proposed by the Law Commission. Their draft bill has been with the detailed knowledge and experience on the written after extensive research and consultation and would give ground of how well the regulations work or, as it the opportunity for much better scrutiny of major reforms of an quite often the case, how they do not work. Therefore, important industry”. 33 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 34

I understand that it is now rather too late in this eight organisations responding—from the British Parking Parliament to be introducing such a substantive Bill as Association to cycling and disability groups—were a draft taxi Bill, but I hope that the Minister will say in strongly opposed to the Government’s proposed ban. his reply why the Government have chosen not to do Only two had a mixed reaction, one of which was that and have instead introduced measures that at from the motoring organisations, so even they were least two police and crime commissioners—and many not unanimously agreed on the ban. We still do not others, I am sure—feel are deeply unsatisfactory and know exactly what the exemptions are. It is difficult in worrying. this area to distinguish between what are actually government proposals and what has come from the The next clause about which I am concerned is Friday afternoon press release from the Secretary of Clause 34—I speak as one who, until May, had been a State, preparatory presumably to his Friday evening in London councillor for 40 years—on the short-term the pub, where most of these utterings seem rather use of London accommodation. I ask the Minister: better fitted than to legislation. who was consulted by the Government before they Waste collection again is causing considerable concern introduced that clause? I ask that in particular because to local authorities, not least the likely increased cost the clause is opposed quite strongly by London Councils, and complexity of introducing these additional regulations. the body representing all 32 London boroughs and the As has been said, this is a big deregulation Bill. I City of London. It is opposed quite strongly by thought that the clue might be in the name. In fact we Westminster City Council, arguably the one that will are proposing to introduce more regulation, which be most affected by these provisions. Reflecting on the will make carrying out the essential task of waste financial incentives for engaging in short-term letting, collection more complex and more expensive. I know it makes the point that in 2005 the rent that could be that my noble friend the Minister is, if anything, an charged for a short-term let property was 273% higher even stronger localist than I am. I look forward in his than comparable rents for private sector rental properties. closing speech to his justification for why these measures It is understandably very concerned about that. It is meet the test of proportionality and necessity. not only the London local authorities that are concerned about the provisions in this clause. I have had representations from the Bed and Breakfast Association and the British Hospitality Association. They are all 4.27 pm concerned about the effect that this clause, if implemented as it stands, will have on the letting property market in Lord Monks (Lab): My Lords, I, too, will comment London. This will need much more careful consideration on a small number of proposals in this Deregulation in Committee. Bill and touch on two issues that are not in the Bill but are relevant to it. The first issue is the concern expressed In my last two minutes, I turn to two clauses that by some other noble Lords who have contributed to concern me: Clause 38 on parking and Clause 43 the debate—Clause 1, which aims to limit the general and Schedule 11 on waste collection. Anyone who duty on the self-employed to comply with the Health has been a councillor for any length of time knows and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. Only those who are that the two subjects you never, ever touch within a definitely picked out would be covered by the Act in year of an election are parking and waste collection. future if the Bill goes through. Why on earth are the Government interfering in these As the noble Lords, Lord Fowler and Lord Rooker, matters within a year of a general election? Despite have made clear, this is a pretty big change to the that foolishness, I have to ask again about those two existing provisions and is a genuflection to those who core activities—the core business of local authorities. consistently sneer at the health and safety culture, Minister after Minister in all parties will say that it is which may have its ludicrous moments from time to local people who know best and that one size does not time but generally has served this country well. If you fit all. Why are the Government now trying to interfere look at international league tables on, say, skills, health and to regulate—never mind within a year of a general and safety, industrial relations or productivity, the one election—in these matters that are essential to local that Britain comes top in now is good health and government? safety. On the others we are languishing in a lower position than is comfortable. Therefore, this is an area My 40 years as a local councillor were spent of excellence and I pay tribute to all those who have representing a controlled parking zone in a town centre done a good job in making it like that. It seems to me area vital to the local economy. We all know that one now that to give the self-employed the impression that size does not fit all. That was in the London Borough they are going to be outside the Health and Safety at of Sutton. It has a different regime from the Royal Work etc. Act is a big error. A process of prescription Borough of Kingston next door, or the London Borough would no doubt be controversial, rather costly and of Croydon next door or indeed the London Borough protracted. Different sectors will argue like mad about of Wandsworth, which I know the Minister knows whether they should be in the scope of the Act. I think particularly well. Why are the Government interfering? that more red tape rather than less is being introduced. What is the justification for this? We will go into it in I am not alone in thinking that this prescribing will very much more detail in Committee. However, as I be onerous, so the effect of Clause 1 will, I think, be to think has been mentioned, the consultation from the remove most of the self-employed from the general Department for Transport on parking received a lot of duty under the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. I responses, almost all of them hostile. On the issue of know other figures have been given but it is going to be the CCTV ban, which this clause covers, six of the quite a process arguing whether you are in or out. It 35 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 36

[LORD MONKS] GMB and RMT, the main unions concerned with will be confusing to the average self-employed worker workers in this area. I ask the Government to take this who is thinking, “Am I covered, am I not covered?” threat, particularly to women, very seriously indeed. and will be referred no doubt to a lawyer and to the The role of the local authority licensing body becomes subsections in a particular piece of legislation. I recognise much more difficult under these provisions. In a sense, that this was recommended by the majority of the one risk of deregulation is that you merely move the Löfstedt review of health and safety regulation, but pinch point somewhere else. Licensing these people, the subsequent consultation by the Health and Safety and being responsible to a degree for what goes wrong Executive has shown many to be against it, arguing in this area, will become a new industry if we are not that confusion and possibly increased risk will result. careful. It would be a real problem. I mentioned that I wanted to talk about a couple of The present system covers everybody. At least it is things that are not in the Bill. I can do that very briefly. straightforward; it works. The message is, “Don’t take I was looking for the deregulation of trade unions. risks with other people’s health and safety—or, indeed, After all, as Members of the House will know, we are your own”. Under the Bill, will that change? Will the awash with scrutineers and assurers. The lobbying Bill impression be different? It could well be, and many added £500,000 to the costs of the average large trade will not bother to take it quite so seriously as they did union just recently. We are swamped with regulation. in the past. Worse, people who control a workplace The fact that a strike is scheduled for later this week with many self-employed people—often bogus self- seems to have prompted the Conservative Benches to employed; they are doing the same jobs as employees—will suggest all kinds of new regulations in relation to tend to think that they have no duty of care and guess strikes, as if a law every two years on trade unions, that they are exempt from the law. The most dangerous when the Conservatives were in power, was not enough. industries, such as agriculture and construction, have I think that it would have been a very good idea to a high proportion of the self-employed. The confusion apply the Deregulation Bill to trade unions, but that from this clause in those sectors could cause complacency does not seem to have crowded on to, at least, the and poor practice. The Government have today published Conservative Party’s agenda. I want to encourage a consultation on health and safety, proposing that them, in a genuine spirit of helpfulness, to go down construction becomes a prescribed industry, but the that road. I do not even have to be consulted too much exact borders of that are not clear. I understand that about it, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, suggested, if already a lot of questions are being raised about it. a new clause comes in. On self-employment in general, the fatality rate per On the second area, I am pleased to see that the Bill 100,000 is already twice that of employees. Self- does not propose to make further changes to the employment is rising quickly in this country: Sunday trading rules. A big lobby has been pressing 9%—330,000—since 2008, while 40% of the new jobs for provisions in the Bill and I am pleased to say that that have been created since 2010 are self-employed. the Government, so far, have not accepted them. Long Going freelance has been very much the fashion, or may that continue. maybe the only option, for many. The increase has been marked in all sorts of occupations that you do not associate with self-employment or freelance working: 4.36 pm admin, secretarial work, sales and customer service Lord Naseby (Con): My Lords, I had the privilege and, perhaps more traditionally, personal service of serving on the Bill committee under the superb occupations. It would be naive to think that all these chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I should people were budding entrepreneurs. Many of them are also like to pay tribute to the clerks who backed us up. the bogus self-employed, relieving an employer of his They did a superb job on a very tight schedule—we obligations under PAYE, national insurance, pensions were given the best part of just over 12 weeks. The and employment law, with many of the workers concerned Government set us the target of reporting by Christmas. thinking that they are going to get a tax advantage out We stuck to that target and I think we did as good a of being self-employed. This measure could be a further job as any committee could hope to do in that time incentive to go self-employed, or to be forced to give span. We recognised that this is a very important part up employee status. It is wrong and it could be dangerous. of the Government’s programme. I pay tribute to the It is encouraging to see Members of the House on all Ministers who gave evidence to us. I commiserate with sides raising questions about this. I hope that the the Minister who will take the Bill through in all its Government will consider these representations seriously. detail, but it is a very important part of the Government’s There is a complete change with my next concern. legislation and one that I greatly welcome. Clauses 10 and 12 on private hire cars and taxis were However, something changed en route and it appears touched on by my noble friend Lord Stevenson. The that, in reality, we looked at only two-thirds of the Bill purpose is to reduce the effects of the current rules at best. As someone who has been Chairman of Ways that apply to taxis and private hire. I will not go into and Means in the other place, the situation jars with detail, but there will be more unlicensed and less me when colleagues from all sides have worked extremely controlled private hire and taxi drivers flooding the hard to take evidence, to listen to it, to reflect on and streets than before if this goes through. The risk, question it, and have proposed to the Government of particularly to women travelling in cabs and taxis at the day that certain changes should be made. In fairness, night, is being highlighted by the Suzy Lamplugh the Government respond very positively in almost all Trust, the Local Government Association, Unite, the areas to the committee’s evidence and recommendations. 37 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 38

However, we then discover in Committee that a number of state thinks about the economic impact of what it of new clauses appear on the horizon, which get a does. That applies to the whole lot. We had what I fairly peremptory examination. Even more surprising, would call some howls of protest from the Joint we discover on Report that new clauses appear in the Committee on Human Rights, saying that we would Bill. be interfering with its role in life; in particular, it might be struck off the list in Europe. I totally fail to see how I must say to my noble friend on the Front Bench it would interfere with any of the human rights bodies that, in all conscience, the Government are not being if we—society—asked them to reflect at length on the fair to the public, who justifiably want to give their impact of anything they do, propose or criticise. That voice on clauses that come forward, and I do not think is what we recommended in our report and it seems the Government are being fair to Parliament as a entirely justifiable from society’s point of view. whole. Inevitably, I suspect, that will mean that the Committee stage will take rather longer here than it otherwise would. Looking back on the previous Session, I seem to remember that we had to break early because 4.43 pm there was no work to be done. The same applied at the Baroness Andrews (Lab): My Lords, I, too, had the other end. So I question why, when we had a perfectly privilege of serving on the Select Committee under the good, succinct, tight Bill, the decision was taken to energetic leadership of my noble friend Lord Rooker. add other bits. Was it that certain departments of state It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Naseby. were a bit slothful in coming forward or was it that I agree with much of what he says but there are a few Ministers got a little too enthusiastic? In future, I hope things that I will take issue with. that there will be an annual Bill that is tightly drawn. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, who is not in his As the noble Lord said in his introductory comments, place, put forward some very impressive examples of it is the deregulatory dimension that we all want in effective regulation but I think he would agree with Parliament, rather than the repositioning of existing me—and picking up what the Minister said—that legislation. I hope that can be really tightly drawn and what we have in the Bill is one of those exercises that stuck to. That way, across government as a whole, we Ministers and officials across Whitehall absolutely would be doing the public a great service. dread. The call to arms went out from the Cabinet I will just mention three other areas. First, in the Office: “Something more must be done about regulation Law Commission, there is a body to review laws that so it is your job to find more examples of regulation are out of date. We took evidence and, frankly, we and bring them forward”. At a long stretch, many were somewhat aghast at how long it took to do its departments did bring things forward, so amid the job. Parliament, particularly Ministers, should be putting many useful things in the Bill—the Select Committee pressure on the Law Commission to move faster. The commended the Bill in many respects—we have a real Law Commission said to us that it did not have the mishmash of odd initiatives, ranging from fire, fuel resources to do it. If it is beneficial to the public, and farriers to the defence of the grey squirrel and particularly the public purse, Ministers and the Law much else, as we have already seen. As the noble Lord, Commission need to sit down and find a way of Lord Naseby, very eloquently put it, the Bill has making what is called the SLRs work better. We said proved an irresistible magnet for all manner of things in our original report that there should be an annual which the committee never had a chance to look at SLR Bill. I do not need an answer today—my colleagues and which the House will want to debate. These measures and I would like the answer in writing—but my question were shoved in without warning, consultation or thought is: have there been consultations with the Law Commission for the implications for public safety and security, as and, if so, what were the results of those deliberations? my noble friend Lord Monks said. I am sure that this will be followed up by many noble Lords. Secondly, we received evidence from BALPPA, which We make it very clear in our support for the Bill regulates the leisure park industry in our seaside towns that we are in full support of proportionate regulation up and down the country. It gears up its programme of to enable enterprise of all sorts to flourish—who events, et cetera, to the school holidays. We questioned could not be? The Bill, however, suffers from being, in the association quite deeply because the Bill proposes large part, opportunistic. Indeed, there are elements of that we should deregulate school terms. I am a grandfather, the Bill, as we explored in our debate, about the and there must be other grandfathers here, and fathers. cavalier treatment of Parliament itself. The Bill will Honestly, what we really want is predictability. If you benefit from close scrutiny from your Lordships. The have a boy and a girl, you want to know that they and noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has already discussed the their friends will be on holiday at the same time. I hope extraordinary Clause 51 in the draft Bill which would that we can have another look at that. Certainly, if you have given Ministers carte blanche to declare, by order, look at the evidence from the USA, where they deregulated that certain legislation could be removed, around Labor Day, absolute chaos flowed and it adversely “if the Minister considers that it is no longer of practical use”. affected the tourism industries. I ask the Minister: has there been any economic assessment of the impact of Our evidence found that neither officials nor Ministers deregulating school holidays on tourism jobs in the could tell us what on earth that clause actually meant, seaside areas? I think that is important. let alone what it would do; so, very sensibly, Ministers decided to throw it out. My only surprise was that the My third point concerns the economic growth duty, reason they gave was that there was no public appetite which I spoke about at some length in the committee. I for it. I should have thought that that was the least believe it is absolutely fundamental that every department reason, frankly. 39 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 40

[BARONESS ANDREWS] tested definition of sustainable growth, which has A lot of fun went out of the committee when we been worked out in practice and is so much more lost that clause, but we still became very involved with consistent and sensible. Otherwise we will be into the sorts of issues raised, for example, by the noble short-term improvisations regarding the nature of growth, Lord, Lord Tope, about the Bill’s title and whether the and that would be really dangerous. Bill was, indeed, deregulatory in every respect. Clause 1 has already been raised as a cause of Decriminalisation as regards household waste, for example, concern around the House. Our committee had several is hardly deregulatory in a conventional sense. Likewise, witnesses who described the changes as unnecessary, we have examples in which the burden of regulation is unhelpful and unwise. I know that the prescribed list simply shifted from one agency to another, as in some has been published, but it is vague in parts, and it is of the education clauses. My prime concern in this not clear whether some trades are in or out. There is respect is in relation to the new duties that are created. another aspect which exercises me: the clause requires I have to part company, sadly, with the noble Lord, the prescribed list to be set out by negative resolution. Lord Naseby, over the duty to promote growth in This is for a change which will have a major impact on Clause 83. This, in a Bill which aims at decluttering, is safety at work. When that was challenged, the Minister a massive piece of new clutter. gave us the reason for not using an affirmative order—that I am grateful to the Minister for circulating the the increase in parliamentary time that would be required draft guidance, but can he tell us in the wind-up, in was not considered appropriate. We see many inadequate fewer words than Ministers tried to tell us in the Joint explanations for inadequate parliamentary scrutiny, Committee, how, by creating a new duty, the Government but that is one of the worst. are minimising the burden on public bodies? We do Another set of policy issues flares up around the not need to be told in statute how important growth is, housing clauses. First, we have the reduction from five so why on earth is this in the Bill at all? Many years to three years in the qualifying period for the regulatory bodies work within a remit that presumes right to buy. In all logic, given the housing crisis in this and encourages growth, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, country, it is bizarre to reduce the permanent housing has already pointed out. The regulator I know best, stock any more. Evidence from the LGA suggests that English Heritage, conducts its primary work of for every seven local authority homes lost, only one conservation within the balance of priorities established, new one has been built. Will the Minister give a after long debate, around sustainable growth as set out commitment to publish the impact statement before in the National Planning Policy Framework. Committee? We have wasted an opportunity here to The committee has been assured, and the House enable councils to fill the housing gap. The Bill could was assured this afternoon, that the clause will not have allowed for the full retention of receipts by local confuse or override existing requirements. However, authorities and been the vehicle to remove the housing where are the safeguards that regulators will not be borrowing cap. hauled up to account for their lack of success or lack We have in Clause 32 a useful and almost welcome of sincerity in promoting growth? The draft guidance, new provision to create new powers for the Secretary which I was grateful to see, in fact leaves it to the of State to include optional requirements in building regulators to decide for themselves where the balance regulations. That means that, for the first time, new lies. It states: homes can be built which are flexible and adaptable “The growth duty does not automatically take precedence for people growing old and people with disabilities. over or supplant existing duties held by regulators—Section 2”. However, it is optional. It needs to be a requirement, What does “not automatically” mean in this context? not least because the only place where this is happening In their response to the committee the Government is in London—our thanks are due, first, to Mr Livingstone said: and then to Mr Johnson. If the requirement is optional, “The final guidance will be published at an early stage to it will deter other local authorities from following the support Parliamentary passage of the Deregulation Bill”. very good lead set by London. Can we have an assurance that this will be available There is much that we will return to in the Bill. There before Committee stage in the autumn? is no doubt that it has been cobbled together, and there In short, there is a real concern that this clause is the sound of barrels being scraped in many clauses. could cause genuine mischief. It could be used to However, there are useful things in it, too. I look pressurise bodies and distort their proper functions as forward to a more forensic examination in Committee. well as creating additional burdens to demonstrate compliance. That is not just the non-economic regulators, 4.52 pm which have a particular problem, but the economic regulators as well. The clue as to how the Government Lord Mackay of Drumadoon (CB): My Lords, the think it will work is what the Minister said in another two clauses in the Bill that I want to touch on briefly, place—that in the last resort a business will use judicial Clauses 18 and 61, have caused the Law Society of review. I am astonished by that. Not only is it a totally Scotland some concern over their possible implication inappropriate expectation to build into the legislative and consequences. It wishes these concerns to be process, it completely sidesteps the Government’s plans raised at this stage of the Bill, but it may be necessary to emasculate judicial review that we in this House or appropriate to return to them in Committee. discussed only last week. Frankly, I would much rather Clause 18 seeks to alter the regime for insolvency all this be in the Bill, where we could see it with some practitioners by introducing a new regime of partial security. I appeal to the Minister not to use this crude authorisation for an insolvency practitioner. Such a definition of growth but to go back to the tried and partial authorisation would entitle an individual to act 41 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 42 in insolvency related only to companies or another 4.58 pm individual to act in insolvency related to individuals. Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab): My Lords, I will Full authorisation would be reserved for someone focus on Clause 52 and Schedule 16, which the who was authorised to act in relation to companies, Government introduced late in May, after the draft individuals and insolvent partnerships. Bill had been considered by my noble friend Lord The Law Society of Scotland understands that, in Rooker and his committee. I will take a somewhat England, the law relating to the insolvency of corporate different line to previous contributors who have spoken bodies is separate from that relating to the insolvency favourably about Clause 52. This clause deals with of individuals. It is therefore easier to understand why selling alcohol at community events and ancillary one might want to split up the authority to act into a licences. Part of this Bill includes the community and partial authorisation. On the other hand, in Scotland ancillary sellers notice, which means that those whose there is no such separation between the law applicable core business is not selling alcohol or providing regulated to corporate work and the law applicable to individuals. entertainment can sidestep regulations to sell alcohol The Law Society’s concern is that many of the statutory as part of a wider business contract. instruments that are currently required to be followed What we have here is not really a deregulation but a by insolvency practitioners in Scotland could not be new form of alcohol licensing—in a sense, a do-it-yourself confined within a partial authorisation, as proposed application form of licensing—which we have not seen in Clause 18. before. It will remove barriers currently faced by certain It might be asked why the Law Society should be businesses such as hairdressers and tanning salons, concerned about this, because the obvious solution and make it simpler and cheaper to obtain a new might be that everyone in Scotland wishing to be an community and ancillary seller’s notice. It will make it insolvency practitioner should just apply for full much harder for local licensing officers to object to authorisation. However, it seems perfectly commendable them. Overall, it will mean even easier access to alcohol. that the Law Society’s concern should be drawn to the It means alcohol being available in a whole new range Government’s attention, to see whether this clause of settings with very little oversight of its sale and requires examination in a little more detail at later consumption. stages. That is all within the context of the worrying rising series of health harms. One person is killed every hour The other clause that has given rise to concern is these days by alcohol. Annually, 1.2 million people are Clause 61. This provides that Section 15A of the admitted to hospital due to alcohol-related causes. Social Security Act 1998, which deals with the functions Liver disease is the only major disease against which of the Senior President of Tribunals, should be amended we have not been making progress over the past 10 years. to omit the provisions that require preparing and Rates in people under 30 suffering from the condition publishing an annual report on standards of decision- have increased by 112%. Of course, alcohol is a factor making in certain decisions made by the Secretary of in almost half of all violent crimes committed. State, against which an appeal lies to the First-tier Tribunal. In other words, the Senior President of The intention to launch ancillary licences was first Tribunals has publicly to make an annual report on promised in the Government’s alcohol strategy, published the view taken about the standards of decision-making, back in March 2012. However, the strategy also promised in certain decisions made by the Secretary of State a minimum unit price of 45p per unit and a public and his or her staff. health licensing objective. Both those measures—I put this very kindly indeed—have yet to materialise. Had The Explanatory Notes to the Bill state that we had them, they could have acted as controls and arrangements have been put in place to compensate safeguards to make sure that the ancillary licence for consequences of removing this statutory duty on policy would not lead to increased consumption and the Senior President of Tribunals. They go on to state: increased strain on public services. Regrettably, we “Alternative and more direct methods for providing feedback have not had them. from the judiciary to the Secretary of State have in practice been A range of organisations has raised opposition to developed”, Clause 52 and the accompanying schedule. Among and been effective. Speaking as a judge for a number them is the Alcohol Health Alliance, the British Medical of years, I was unaware of any alternative and more Association, Alcohol Concern and the Institute of direct method for providing feedback to the Secretary Alcohol Studies, which recently stated: of State, other than issuing a judgment or opinion “At a time when alcohol-related hospital admissions and once a case was decided. Again, I suggest, the Law deaths are on the rise, we need to ask: is it sensible to encourage Society commendably considers that these alternative people to drink more?”. methods should be specified at this stage, before the Perhaps even more important is the impact that the Bill goes much further. legislation could have in normalising alcohol as a I do not expect the Minister to be in a position to must-have for almost every occasion. That is the important comment in detail on these matters. The first is quite issue that the House needs to address: the changing complicated and I have advised the Law Society that culture which the Bill presents. we should write to the Minister’s department for this So far, the community aspect has principally been to be considered fully. If there then has to be a debate addressed. When the Government have said that the on it at a later stage, all those taking part can be Bill is mainly about community changes, they have properly informed about the issues and arguments, prayed in aid the Women’s Institute which, they claim, one way or another. has been asking for the change to be introduced. I find 43 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 44

[LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE] 5.07 pm it somewhat baffling, and I suspect that the Women’s Institute may find it somewhat baffling, that it is being Baroness Eaton (Con): My Lords, I am very pleased offered licences for community events that start at to take part in this important debate. I declare an seven o’clock in the morning, because that is what the interest as a previous chairman, and now a vice-president, licences will offer. I think that the WI is being used as a of the Local Government Association. I welcome the Trojan horse. It may not fully understand the rest of Government’s objective to bring forward legislation the legislation which is proposed along with the that will reduce any burdens on local government and community aspect. Perhaps even the noble Lord, Lord business in our communities. Removing red tape is an Stoneham of Droxford, and the right reverend Prelate important issue for local government, especially because the Bishop of Truro, who have spoken favourably for of the vast statutory duties that local government is the change, have not looked at the ancillary side of the responsible for. I believe that there are other aspects legislation recommended by the Local Government Association that will help councils deal with these burdens further, but there are other elements in the Bill that need The legislation will offer the opportunity for alcohol further consultation with local authorities. to be sold, for the first time, by small businesses—the so-called ancillary sellers. That could take place on a Having looked through the Bill, I would welcome very wide scale indeed. That is where the growth is clarity on whether the Government have consulted likely to take place, not with community events. It is with the Local Government Association, particularly the prize that the drinks industry has been looking for. on Clauses 10 and 12 on private licensing vehicle It will be getting the quid pro quo offered to them in reforms and Clause 38 on parking, and what response the 2012 alcohol strategy for swallowing minimum they received from the LGA. I note that the Government unit pricing and public health criteria being introduced wish to deregulate private hire vehicles to help families, into licensing considerations. However, they have managed, but I wonder whether councils have been fully engaged through the pressures they put on the Government, to with these proposals. Others this afternoon have also see and avoid those being introduced so far. Instead raised their concerns on this clause. The noble Lord, they are now benefiting from the ancillary licences. Lord Monks, has already mentioned women travelling in private hire cars. As a female, regular user of private I regret that when my party dealt with this in the hire vehicles, Clause 10 raises concerns for me on Commons, while raising objections and generally being safety and whether the person driving the vehicle has concerned, it did not push the issue to a Division. I am been properly vetted. Will the Minister ensure that the hoping that on reflection, having looked at the evidence Department for Transport, if it has not done so already, a little more carefully, it may be willing to change its meets with the Local Government Association to discuss mind on that further down the line as we come to deal these reforms? with the clauses. I just do not believe that this change Similarly, I understand that many councils have is going to be limited to what the Government describe raised concerns about the Government’s proposals to as bed-and-breakfast businesses. After all, how many ban the use of CCTV for parking enforcement. At this bed-and-breakfast businesses are going to offer alcohol point, I must declare an interest as I am a member of for sale at seven o’clock in the morning? There are an advisory board for the Marston Group Ltd. I know some crazy contradictions within this policy. that councils are concerned about these proposals as they could prevent them from using CCTV for parking I think that instead we are going to see instead a enforcement, particularly outside schools, at bus stops, wide-scale application for the licences to go into a and on clearways. In particular, we must ensure that whole range of areas where hitherto we have never children are protected from irresponsible parking outside seen alcohol on sale. Most certainly hairdressers will schools. As I understand it, the Bill allows the Secretary apply to offer and sell alcohol, and health establishments, of State to exempt certain places from a ban but if the such as tanning shops, will do the same. There is Bill takes effect before the guidance is in force, it may nothing, so far as we can see, that would prevent be impossible to enforce parking restrictions which sandwich bars starting to offer alcohol with sandwiches; will be referred to within the guidance. It would be nothing to stop cafes moving in that direction; nothing helpful if the Minister could agree to meet with the to stop coffee shops—and even more. LGA on this very important issue. Councils have been at the forefront of recycling When I addressed this topic during the debate on over the past decade, with recycling rates rising from the Queen’s Speech, I asked the Government whether I 13%, 10 years ago, to 43% today. Clause 43 aims to had got it right or wrong. I have had no replies so far, deregulate the criminal penalties for people who nor have any of the other advocates opposed to this consistently refuse to deal with their household waste been able to establish just where the licences will end properly. These proposals may have wider unintended and to whom they will be limited. I look to the consequences and an impact on those individuals, Minister to see whether he can produce more evidence their neighbours and the wider community. I am sure of where it is likely to go. I think it is wrong to leave that the Minister will congratulate councils on their this for the consultation period after the Act has gone efforts in increasing recycling rates over the years and through, and then put forward regulations, which we on some of the incentivising schemes that they now cannot change, because by then the culture change have in place to encourage recycling. Will my noble will be well and truly under way. That, I believe, is not friend look seriously at the potential implications for what this House wants. local communities of these proposals? I am sure he 45 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 46 would agree that we do not want recycling rates to My second point is quite different, and it is really a decrease as a result of councils having the inability, as sin of omission. It concerns Section 73 of the Copyright, the last resort, to enforce the law when they need to. Designs and Patents Act 1988. It is essentially a provision I draw two additional aspects to the attention of my that adversely affects the commercial television noble friend, on local authorities’ licensing arrangements companies—that is, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5. I and statutory notices. First, will he look closely at the should say that I used to be chair of the All-Party excellent proposals being put forward to assist councils Group on ITV and am now the vice-chairman, and I with cutting red tape from local business through the have had very helpful briefings from some of the Local Government Association’s document on rewiring broadcasters. licensing? As he is probably aware, local government To repeal Section 73 would be a clear deregulatory must issue more than 150 licences. The LGA’s proposals measure. Many representations have been made to would reduce unnecessary bureaucracy by allowing the Government, who seem to say two things in reply. small businesses to apply for a single licence, rather The first is that there is ongoing litigation between the than the complex layers of licensing currently in place. public service broadcasters and TV catch-up. This has I ask my noble friend to look closely at the rewiring been going on for some years. In fact it has been going licensing document and commit to undertaking a on for such a long time that it is getting to the stage of review of all local authority licensing regulations, and being like Jarndyce and Jarndyce. In any case, it is not how they may be simplified as part of this Bill. appropriate to wait for ever for litigation that is so Secondly, statutory notice requirements which date prolonged. That is not right. Secondly, Oliver Letwin, from the early 1970s are burdensome on councils; a Minister at the Cabinet Office, has said that this Bill their publication process has not moved with the is not the right vehicle for such change. My goodness times. The Bill deals with elderly legislation and reforms me, those of us who have been around for a long time it for modern-day use. Will the Minister look at whether know that, time and again, Governments have two it could be used in a similar fashion to update these excuses for opposing things: either an amendment is requirements? Councils are spending £26 million a technically defective—well, I am not amending anything year on advertisements when councils in England are yet—or the Bill is not an appropriate vehicle for such a facing a huge funding gap between March 2014 and change. That has been a standard excuse from the end of 2015-16. Such adverts could be published in Governments over the years. Oliver Letwin, after saying a digital form at much less cost. Publication is very that the issue is rather complicated so the Bill is not important but the medium used to do so must be appropriate, then does the other usual thing, which is modernised. to pass the buck. He says, “Try DCMS”. We have now The Bill provides great opportunities to support tried the Cabinet Office, DCMS and BIS. Government local councils and small businesses, which I support, departments seem to be passing this issue from one to but I hope that my noble friend will note the concerns the other. I shall argue in a moment that it is a clear of local government and consult with where necessary. deregulatory measure and that the buck should not be passed any longer—particularly because if nothing happens now, we will be stuck until after the election 5.13 pm and heaven knows how long it will take. Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, I want to make just Originally, Section 73 had a purpose, but that has two points in relation to the Bill, as some others that I gone. The passage of time has eroded it. Indeed, the might have made have already been covered adequately Bill says that other measures have become obsolete by Members of this House. My first concerns Clauses 21 with the passage of time. British television is at the to 27 and Schedule 7 on public rights of way. I heart of British creative industry. It is vibrant and welcome the briefings from the Open Spaces Society dynamic and it has great content and global reach. and the Ramblers, which I am sure many of us have The way in which Section 73 works undermines investment received. They are basically in support of these clauses, in our commercial television sector and is quite an whose purpose is to speed up, streamline and simplify outdated measure. There is no longer a level playing the process for getting the official maps of public field. What happens is that what are called third party paths up to date. At the moment, many of them are aggregators, often large companies, take the content not. It is urgent because there is now a cut-off date of for free without payments to those who have created 1 January 2026—that seems a long way ahead but we it. That seems quite wrong. The simple fact is that might get there very quickly—which means that if the Section 73 is an historic measure, designed effectively process has not been completed, any pre-1949 unrecorded to deliver a subsidy from public service broadcasters routes will be extinguished. That will be damaging for to encourage cable rollout in the 1980s. That is a long the rights of walkers, riders, cyclists and carriage time ago now. drivers. I should say that I am a very keen hill walker Section 73 prevents public service broadcasters having myself, so I feel close to this issue. These clauses came any form of negotiation for the supply of PSB channels from Natural England’s stakeholder working group to the cable platform in the UK. There is not even a on unrecorded public rights of way, so they represent commercial opportunity for them to negotiate. It is a consensus by representing the public path users’ perverse that, for example, PSBs subsidise Virgin Media, body, the landowners, the occupiers and the local which is owned by Liberty Global, a multimillion-pound authorities. That is a pretty impressive consensus, so I global TV distribution platform. We have British television hope that these clauses will go through unamended companies, some of which are doing fairly well but and unaltered because they represent something very which are not that affluent, subsidising an enormous important. global player. If Section 73 were to be repealed, that at 47 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 48

[LORD DUBS] recommended that these powers be removed. I am least would enable some form of commercial arrangement very glad that the Government have agreed to do that. to be reached on cable transmission but within the In the course of our inquiry into these and similar overall Communications Act framework. That framework proposals in the Bill, however, it seemed to us that, as includes the “must offer” obligation of PSB channels the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has also said, there was to key platforms such as cable and satellite, subject to an unhelpful tension between the Government and the the agreement of terms. Law Commission. The draft Bill contains a schedule British television content is the envy of the world containing legislation to be disapplied by order. The and its continued success depends on its ability to get a Government removed the order power but retained return on investment. I am in the Labour Party and I the schedule. It is now Schedule 20 to the Bill. This am talking about business and so on. This Bill provides schedule repeals parts of 28 separate Acts. These an important opportunity to repeal Section 73. I urge range from the Nuclear Industry (Finance) Act 1977 the Government not to miss the opportunity to consider through the Breeding of Dogs Act 1973 to the Town amending the Bill to repeal the section. I do not know Police Clauses Act 1847. Clause 82, which asserts that what we are waiting for. It is not as complicated as the all this legislation is no longer of any practical use, will Cabinet Office says. It is fairly straightforward. There repeal about 119 clauses. Some of these clauses are has been so much discussion and negotiation. I think poleaxed themselves. we ought to get on with it. It would be best if the Does anyone seriously believe that Parliament will Government brought forward their own amendment. subject these 119 clauses to close scrutiny—or, indeed, I hope the Minister will agree to that, but, if not, I any scrutiny at all—as the Bill passes through its would like the Government at least to accept a Back-Bench stages? The Joint Committee’s report found that the amendment on this issue. Law Commission was better placed to give detailed scrutiny to this kind of allegedly obsolete statute. We 5.20 pm stated: Lord Sharkey (LD): My Lords, I, too, had the “The skills, research and consultation needed to ensure that privilege of being a member of the Joint Committee Parliament, external organisations and the public can be satisfied that a piece of legislation is genuinely obsolete strongly suggest that scrutinised the Bill in draft form. As it turns out, that the Law Commissions are better placed to conduct that work it was very much in draft form. As many noble Lords than Government departments. Added to which, the independence have said, the Bill is significantly different from the of the Law Commissions from Government and their track draft Bill. It is inevitable that such a Christmas tree of record since 1965 reinforce the trust that Parliament places in the a Bill will grow as it progresses, but that fact raises Law Commissions”. significant questions about the role of pre-legislative This is a key point. Whom should we trust to say that scrutiny. legislation is obsolete and may be safely repealed— When the draft Bill came to us, it was 240 pages government departments or the Law Commission? I long. It was described by Ken Clarke as, am in no doubt that the answer should be the Law “a slight mountain of a Bill”. Commissions. We recommended that Schedule 20 items It covered 10 ministerial departments and four agencies. be referred to the Law Commission for a safety check. It made changes to more than 70 underlying Acts. We acknowledged that, to meet the growing demand, Some of these Acts made changes to previous Acts. the Law Commission would need additional resource. The committee was given 12 weeks to scrutinise all We also agreed with the Law Commission’s own proposals this. We thought this was inadequate, and we said so. for more frequent and responsive SLR Bills. We We would have pressed the point more strongly had we recommended that the Government consider making known that the Bill was to be carried over. We found such Bills annual, as my noble friend Lord Naseby this out only when Oliver Letwin, in evidence to us, said. mentioned it in passing. This seems entirely unsatisfactory. The Government did not sound very enthusiastic Perhaps when the Minister replies he could commit to about any of this in their response. They disagreed a more open discussion with pre-legislative scrutiny with our recommendation to give more resource to the committees in future on the question of the time Law Commissions—and did not give a convincing necessary for thorough scrutiny. As it was, with this reason why—and so the mass repeal proposed in Bill we had no choice but to restrict ourselves to Clause 81 and Schedule 20 remains part of the Bill. I certain areas and to leave others entirely unscrutinised. suspect that we will discuss that further as the Bill I also ask the Minister to think about helping the progresses. The case for subjecting all those proposed process of scrutiny in another way. In a complex Bill repeals to the Law Commission for a safety check such as this, it would help greatly for references to remains very strong, as does the case for an annual underlying legislation to be given a hypertext link. SLR Bill. That is a lot easier than having 70 other Bills open However, there are other controversial matters in before you. It would have helped your Lordships’ the Bill; I will point to just some of those that were House to have those hyperlinks in the text of the Bill. investigated by the Joint Committee. We were concerned Could I trust the Minister to commit to doing that about the level of consultation undertaken by the well before Committee, which I understand will start Government in preparation for this very complex and after Recess? wide-ranging Bill. The original Bill had 61 relevant As the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has mentioned, clauses in it, excluding recitations, titles and so on. the original draft of the Bill proposed giving Henry Only 10 of those clauses were subject to formal VIII powers to disapply legislation. The Joint Committee consultation, a further 18 had had some kind of 49 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 50 consultation under the Red Tape Challenge scheme, with household waste decriminalisation, and to Clause 70, and the rest had no formal consultation at all. That which deals with gangmasters. I am sure that the list of raised two questions: was that an appropriate level of clauses your Lordships will want to discuss in detail consultation, and was it appropriate to rely on the Red will be much longer than that, and I look forward to Tape Challenge as a means of consultation? those discussions. The Joint Committee concluded that in some cases The purpose of the Bill is a very good one. It is a consultation had been insufficient. We were also alarmed very welcome Bill and contains good things. The provisions by Oliver Letwin’s assertion that pre-legislative scrutiny for apprenticeships and their funding in Clauses 3, 4 was part of the Government’s consultation process. It and 5 are especially welcome, as is the whole part on is not. The Government should not rely—as they “Alcohol and entertainment”. This grew from one apparently were—on Parliament to consult on their rather lonely clause in the draft Bill on the exhibition behalf, but should undertake proper consultation of films in community premises to the larger-scale themselves. I wonder whether inclusion in the Red liberalisation for local community events. Tape Challenge amounts to proper consultation. It is That part also contains, in Clauses 59 and 60, not clear that it should, and I would be interested to provisions for review of the penalties for non-payment hear the Minister speak to the robustness of the Red of the BBC licence fee and powers to decriminalise Tape Challenge process. In the event, the Government such non-payment. I welcome the opportunity that agreed to remove certain clauses pending further gives us to discuss how to balance protection of the consultation and, in particular, to consult further—which BBC’s revenue with the importance of not sending is important—on the authorisation of insolvency people to prison for non-payment of the licence fee. practitioners. However, I would have welcomed it even more had we The committee welcomed the Government’s reasons, been discussing this in the context of charter renewal. when it came to it, for proposing a duty on regulators Finally, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, for to have regard in broad terms to “economic growth”. his outstanding chairmanship of our Joint Committee. We discussed at some length with our witnesses and I would like to thank our truly excellent clerks, Christine among ourselves the question of measuring or judging Salmon Percival and Geraldine Alexander, for their the success of that requirement. That was an important invaluable work. consideration; we need to be able to assess the effect of any piece of legislation. However, we acknowledged that with the growth objective, that would be difficult. We understood the difficulties involved in attempts to 5.30 pm quantify. Nevertheless, we thought that the Government should consider by what criteria the impact of the Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): My Lords, as we duty could be demonstrated, and welcomed the Minister’s have heard in this debate, everyone agrees it is right to commitment to reflect further. I am not sure that the remove unnecessary regulatory and legislative burdens further reflection—if that is what it was—in the from individuals, civil society, businesses and public Government’s response to our report was terribly helpful. sector organisations. However, this hotchpotch of It was all rather vague and woolly. That is an important measures is not proportionate in some areas and will and unresolved issue, to which I expect to return at a not promote growth or jobs. There are two specific later stage. areas of the Bill that I want to focus on in my contribution Also unresolved is the consequence of the application today, both of which, if carried, will put at risk of the growth duty to the EHRC. The commission workers’ and consumers’ safety. These relate to the spoke to us about the, clauses on health and safety and the last-minute proposals thrown in at the end of the Committee stage in the “intrinsic incompatibility between the growth duty and the duty other place on taxis and private hire vehicles. to promote and protect human rights”. Regulations that protect the health and safety of That incompatibility would risk the “A” status of the workers are not red tape: ask the many people injured commission and the British candidacy on the UN in the construction industry or the families of those Human Rights Council. The JCHR agreed with this killed. Nor are the regulations that help women decide assessment. In their response to our report the on the safest way home or to work red tape. The health Government recognised the need to avoid jeopardising and safety proposals will have a negligible impact on the international standing of the EHRC. They said self-employed people but will create confusion, as we that they would consider this issue further with the have heard in the debate, where there has been clarity EHRC before finalising the list of regulators to whom for the past 40 years. At best, the Government believe the growth duty will apply. In the helpful draft guidance this clause may save self-employed people 37p each notes I received from the Minister this morning, there per year. As the Minister said, the Health and Safety was no list and no mention of the issue in the covering Executive has only today published a consultation on letter. Can the Minister tell the House what progress is the list of self-employed people who will continue to being made in discussion of whether that growth duty be covered by the Health and Safety at Work etc. will apply to the EHRC? Act 1974. It is 60 pages long, so I have not been There are also some other committee recommendations through it thoroughly, but it is beyond me how any where the Government response seems to require further self-employed joiner is expected to know whether they discussion. I refer in particular to Clause 2, which are involved in, removes the employment tribunal’s power to make “construction work (within the meaning given in regulation 2(1) wider recommendations, to Clause 43, which deals of the Construction (Design and Management) Regulation 2007)”. 51 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 52

[LORD COLLINS OF HIGHBURY] Listen to the Local Government Association, which The same is true of most others. It is a recipe for says that, confusion and the only people who will benefit will be “it is imperative that the Government withdraws these plans”, consultants and possibly undertakers. to ensure passenger safety. Listen to the group of The Institution of Occupational Safety and Health 15 cross-party police and crime commissioners from are also worried that this exemption could cause growth across the United Kingdom who have written to the in bogus self-employment and poor health and safety Government to oppose these measures. If Ministers standards—a problem highlighted so well by my noble continue to refuse to listen, I am confident from friend Lady Donaghy’s report in 2009. The institution listening to the contributions in today’s debate that believes the current requirements for the self-employed noble Lords across this House will stand up for the are not onerous and make good business sense. Exemption travelling public and refuse to endorse the Government’s would give the wrong message and may encourage the rushed and risky proposals. unscrupulous to gamble with people’s safety and health. Turning to the other area, taxis and minicabs are 5.38 pm not just for the well-off. At certain parts of the day they are the only form of public transport available. The Earl of Lytton (CB): My Lords, I am afraid I For elderly and disabled people taxis and minicabs are have a fistful of declarations of interest to make, not often their only option throughout the day. Safety only as a vice-president of the LGA, but as a landowner, organisations, police and crime commissioners, licensing a member of the CLA, a landlord, a practising chartered officers, councils and industry bodies warn that the surveyor, chairman of the Rights of Way Review Government’s proposed reforms will have severe safety Committee and, of course, due to my involvement implications. People without a minicab licence will be with parish and town councils. I am afraid I do not allowed to drive one when it is “off duty”, threatening speak for any of those other interests. to put vulnerable passengers, such as women, at increased Much of the Bill is welcome. Anything that calls risk of rogue minicab drivers. Mandatory annual licence itself deregulation is a start—in particular, I briefly checks, which help councils ensure drivers are fit and point to the issues of dealing with short-term lets and proper, will end. Minicab operators will be allowed to the health and safety of self-employed trades—always subcontract bookings to firms in other areas, meaning provided it produces net reductions in burdens and that someone getting into a minicab cannot be sure it does not just shift them around or create other problems is from the firm they booked with. Ask a person with in their wake. I am sure other noble Lords will relate to disabilities whether that is right. that. The Government cannot rely completely on the I wish to follow the example of the noble Lord, Law Commission for this regulation. Its final report, Lord Dubs, and refer to Clauses 21 to 27 on the matter published in May, recommended significant new of rights of way. I agree that they represent the essence enforcement powers and safeguards for local authorities of what the stakeholders working group agreed to. I in conjunction with these measures. As my noble particularly pay tribute to the way the disparate interests friend Lord Stevenson said, local licensing officers do involved with that sought to find common ground. I not have the powers to ensure these changes can be think that should be applauded. However, it had quite enforced safety. a narrow remit, and many issues of current management and usage of the rights of way system remain unaddressed. Ministers in the other place said these measures I hope that the Minister will confirm that these remain work in London but Transport for London and the in focus and that the Bill, when it has been ticked off, Metropolitan Police work together for on-street does not just become a means for ignoring the ongoing enforcement in the capital, which has significant problems need to do something. with unlicensed operators. Between 200 and 250 cases of sexual assault concerning unlicensed minicabs are I think we all agree that the rights of way system in reported across London every year. It is conservatively this country is a thing of glory and great value estimated that five times that number go unreported. culturally, economically and socially. It more than The recent protests we have seen outside the House merits better treatment, with an even-handed and over Uber and the questions it raises on the impact of objective approach as befits a national treasure. At new technologies on the trade underline why the present, it is deprived of resources, a primary cause Government’s piecemeal reforms will not work. We of the delays in recording historic rights and of need to consider regulation and enforcement of the procuring necessary change along the way. This risks licensed taxi and private hire trades comprehensively. leaving many stakeholders inherently dissatisfied, if These piecemeal measures are wrong. Deregulation not irate, and the current day-to-day management and will have wider consequences, including for people administration suffers. with disabilities’ access to taxis and minicabs, and the Therefore, I hope that we will not settle the issue of production of black cabs, which is still an important unrecorded rights of way after 2026 only to open up, part of the UK automotive sector. as we approach that date, some other area of contention that we have not thought of. The Bill deals with some The Government need to stop and listen. Listen to aspects but not with others. I hope that the Minister the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which campaigns for better can reassure me about the intentions for the rest, as I personal safety and expressed concerns that enabling have said. I accept that the rights of way network is anyone to drive a licensed minicab will provide, very large and often incoherent. Its statutory basis is “greater opportunity for those intent on preying on women”. complex and the coalition inherits a legacy of many 53 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Child Abuse 54 past Administrations doing too little or nothing, with the honourable Member for West Bromwich East, the occasionally some expensive and ill-targeted legislation Permanent Secretary of the Home Office, Mark Sedwill, on the way. commissioned an investigation by an independent expert I am a landowner within the Exmoor National into information the Home Office received in relation Park. I know how useful it is to both users and to child abuse allegations, including information provided landowners to have a focused, resourced and authoritative by Mr Dickens. In order to be confident that the body such as a national park authority to deal with investigation would review all relevant information, issues of network coherence and management. Such the investigation reviewed all relevant papers available bodies have proved effective in defusing negativity and relating to child abuse between 1979 and 1999. removing obstructive stances by just process, expertise The investigation reported last year and its executive and reasoned dialogue. We need more of that. summary was published on 1 August 2013. It concluded Therefore, the key to all this is resources for rights there was no single ‘Dickens Dossier’ but there had of way, which outside of national parks, as I have been letters from Mr Dickens to several Home Secretaries suggested, have been decimated. If that deepened over several years that contained allegations of sexual voluntary dialogue between stakeholders, I would welcome offences against children. Copies of the letters had not that as a slightly back-handed compliment. The been kept, but the investigator found evidence that the administrative machinery that underpins any necessary information Mr Dickens had provided had been change is essential, and access to the countryside on considered and matters requiring investigation had urban fringes is no less important than access across been referred to the police. rural broads or remote uplands or along the coast. In total, the investigator found 13 items of information Despite the limited claims of the Bill, which I about alleged child abuse. The police already knew support, I hope that the Minister will confirm that the about nine of those items, and the remaining four were Government are apprised of the hugely beneficial passed by the Home Office to the police immediately. opportunities offered by investment in a national rights The investigation found that 114 potentially relevant of way system, not least its eventual rationalisation, files were not available. These are presumed—by the making it fit for the 21st century and less of a bone of Home Office and the investigator—destroyed, missing contention. or not found, although the investigator made clear that he found no evidence to suggest that the files had Child Abuse been removed or destroyed inappropriately. The Statement investigation found no record of specific allegations by Mr Dickens of child sex abuse by prominent public 5.43 pm figures. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Upon completion of the investigation, the Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My Lords, Office passed the full text of its interim report and with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a final report, along with accompanying information Statement made in the House of Commons earlier this and material, to the police for them to consider as part afternoon by my right honourable friend Theresa May, of their ongoing criminal investigations. As Mark the Home Secretary. Sedwill has said, the investigator recorded that he had “With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to unrestricted access to Home Office records and he make a Statement about the sexual abuse of children, received full co-operation from Home Office officials. allegations that evidence of the sexual abuse of children The investigator was satisfied that the Home Office was suppressed by people in positions of power, and passed all credible information about child abuse in the Government’s intended response. the time period—from Mr Dickens and elsewhere—to the police so they could be investigated properly. In my Statement today I want to address two important public concerns: first, that in the 1980s the Home I believe that the Permanent Secretary did the right Office failed to act on allegations of child sex abuse; things in listening to the allegations made by the and, secondly, that public bodies and other important honourable Member for West Bromwich East and institutions have failed to take seriously their duty of ordering an independent investigation. I am confident care towards children. As I do so, I want to set three that the work he commissioned was carried out in important principles. First, we will do everything we good faith. But I know that, with allegations as serious can to allow the full investigation of child abuse and as these, the public needs to have complete confidence the prosecution of its perpetrators, and we will do in the integrity of the investigation’s findings. nothing to jeopardise those aims. Secondly, where So I can tell the House that I have today appointed possible, the Government will adopt a presumption of Peter Wanless, the chief executive of the National maximum transparency. Thirdly, we will make sure Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, to that wherever individuals and institutions have failed lead a review not just of the investigation commissioned to protect children from harm, we will expose these by Mark Sedwill but also of how the police and failures and learn the lessons. prosecutors handled any related information that was Concern that the Home Office failed to act on handed to them. Peter Wanless will be supported in allegations of child abuse in the 1980s relates mainly his work by an appropriate senior legal figure, who to information provided to the department by the late will be appointed by the Permanent Secretary. Where Geoffrey Dickens, a Member of this House between the findings of the review relate to the Director of 1979 and 1995. As the House will be aware, in February Public Prosecutions, it will report to the Attorney-General 2013, in response to a Parliamentary Question from as well as to me. 55 Child Abuse[LORDS] Child Abuse 56

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] I can now tell the House that the Government will I will ask the review team to advise my officials on establish an independent inquiry panel of experts in what redactions to the full investigation report might the law and child protection to consider whether public be needed in order that, in the interests of transparency, bodies and other non-state institutions have taken it can be published without jeopardising any future seriously their duty of care to protect children from criminal investigations or trials. I expect the review to sexual abuse. The inquiry panel will be chaired by an conclude within eight to 10 weeks, and I will place a appropriately senior and experienced figure. It will copy of its terms of reference in the House Library begin its work as soon as possible after the appointment today. of the chairman and other members of the panel. Given the scope of its work, it is not likely to report In addition to the allegations made by Geoffrey before the general election, but I will make sure that it Dickens, there have also been allegations relating to an provides an update on its progress to Parliament before organisation called the Paedophile Information Exchange, May next year. I will report back to the House when a paedophile campaign group that was disbanded in the inquiry panel chairman has been appointed and 1984. In response to another query from the honourable the full terms of reference have been agreed. Member for West Bromwich East, the Permanent It will, like the inquiries into Hillsborough and the Secretary commissioned another independent investigation murder of Daniel Morgan, be a non-statutory panel in January this year into whether the Home Office had inquiry. This means that it can begin its work sooner; ever directly or indirectly funded PIE. That investigation and because the basis of its early work will be a review concluded that the Home Office had not done so, and of documentary evidence rather than interviews with I will place a copy of the investigation’s findings in the witnesses who might themselves still be subject to House Library today. But, again, in order to ensure criminal investigations, it will be less likely to prejudice complete public confidence in this work, I have also those investigations. But I want to be clear that the asked Peter Wanless to look at this investigation as inquiry panel will have access to all the government part of his review. papers, reviews and reports that it needs. Subject to I now turn to public concern that a variety of the constraints imposed by any criminal investigations, public bodies and other important institutions have it will be free to call witnesses from organisations in failed to take seriously their duty of care towards the public sector, private sector and wider civil society. children. In recent years, we have seen appalling cases I want to make it clear that if the inquiry panel of organised and persistent child sex abuse. This includes chairman deems it necessary, the Government are abuse by celebrities, such as Jimmy Savile and Rolf prepared to convert it into a full public inquiry in line Harris, as well as the systematic abuse of vulnerable with the Inquiries Act. girls in Derby, Rochdale, Oxford, and other towns and I began my Statement by saying that I wanted to cities. Some of these cases have exposed a failure by address the dual concern that in the past the Home public bodies to take their duty of care seriously, and Office failed to act on information it received and, some have shown that the organisations responsible more broadly, that public bodies and other institutions for protecting children from abuse, including the police, have failed to protect children from sexual abuse. I social services and schools have failed to work together believe that the measures that I have announced today properly. address those concerns. I also said that I wanted the work we are doing to reflect three principles: that our That is why, in April 2013, the Government established priority must be the prosecution of the people behind the national group to tackle sexual violence against these disgusting crimes; that wherever possible and children and vulnerable people, which is led by my consistent with the need to prosecute, we will adopt a honourable friend the Minister for Crime Prevention. presumption of maximum transparency; and that where This cross-government group was established to learn there has been a failure to protect children from abuse, the lessons from some of the cases that I have mentioned we will expose it and learn from it. I believe that the and the resulting reviews and inquiries. As a result of measures announced today reflect those important its work, we now have better guidance for the police principles, and I commend this Statement to the House”. and prosecutors, new powers for the police to get My Lords, that concludes the Statement. information from hotels that are used for child sexual exploitation, and better identification of children at risk of exploitation through the use of local multiagency safeguarding hubs. In the normal course of its work the group will publish further proposals to protect 5.57 pm children from abuse. Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, I I know that in recent months many Members of the thank the Minister for repeating the Home Secretary’s House, from all parties, have campaigned for an Statement, which we welcome. There is a lot at stake independent, overarching inquiry into historical allegations today. Child abuse, particularly child sexual abuse, is of child abuse. In my correspondence with the seven an abhorrent crime that devastates its victims. There Members of Parliament who wrote to me about the has been mounting distress and revulsion at the avalanche campaign—the honourable Members for Birmingham of allegations, arrests, charges and convictions that we Yardley, Brighton Pavilion, East Worthingand Shoreham, have seen to date. The clear evidence is that abused Richmond Park, Rochdale, Wells, and West Bromwich children have had their pleas for help and reports of East—I made clear that the Government did not rule crimes dismissed. The fact that no action was taken out such an inquiry. must be fully investigated. Even when the abuse is 57 Child Abuse[7 JULY 2014] Child Abuse 58 historic, the trauma continues into the future. The now that it was—be published? When were the Home truth may be painful and distressing, but nothing less Secretary and the Prime Minister told that the files will do. were missing or destroyed? Finally, can the Minister We have rightly been angered and we have demanded confirm that there will be no hiding place from justice action when there has been evidence of abuse and for those who have committed child sex abuse crimes potential cover-ups. That has now been brought to the or have been involved in destroying or hiding evidence? Government. It is truly shocking, as the Minister said, Will a further Statement be made on the terms and that allegations are being made that the Home Office references of the inquiry panel once the appointments not only failed to investigate evidence that was brought are in place? At this stage there are more questions to it, but that crucial documents were lost and others than answers and I hope that the Minister will agree to may have been destroyed. The Minister will, I am sure, keep Parliament informed as this process proceeds. understand the concerns already expressed of a deliberate Action has to be taken to deal with the past, but attempt to cover up crimes and to protect perpetrators. equally important are the lessons that we learn for the The 2013 review that has now come to light was future. The Minister will know our concerns about the clearly inadequate. It was not announced to Parliament Government’s changes to the vetting and barring system. and it was not revealed that more than 100 related files The system is designed to protect children, but we had gone missing. The Minister will recall from previous believe that the Government have weakened it. Is he debates that we called for a much wider, overarching aware that the number of people barred from working inquiry. Indeed, I raised this with Ministers in your with children as a result of committing sexual offences Lordships’ House on both 6 November and 14 November against children has fallen by 75% in the past three 2012 in debates on child abuse. At that time Ministers years? Can the Minister assure me that the Government rejected those calls, but today’s announcement is a will, in the light of increasing evidence that perpetrators step further towards that and we welcome it. of child sex abuse have evaded justice for many years, reconsider the changes that they have made to this I would like some clarification on the new process, legislation? both of the review and of the inquiry panel. Both have to be thorough investigations. Peter Wanless is highly We welcome the two investigations. I hope that, regarded and, alongside his personal integrity and given the importance of the issues, the Minster will be expertise, he brings the reputation and trust of the able to answer my questions today, but if he is unable NSPCC. Nothing matters more now than reaching the to do so I hope that he can write with answers to those truth, because only through the truth can we achieve specific points. justice and support for victims and provide stronger and better child protection now and for the future. I 6.03 pm want to ask the Minister a few questions. What legal expertise and support will be provided to Mr Wanless? Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I thank the noble Baroness, He will no doubt want to talk to those who have been Lady Smith, for her comments and indeed her support. victims themselves, so will professional support be I suspect that the whole House will be pleased to have made available when he does so? There have been heard the Statement made by the Home Secretary reports that police officers have felt unable to provide today and will recognise that it is a determined attempt information as they had signed gagging clauses. Will to find out what lies at the bottom of the issues that the Wanless—the Minister calls it a review—inquiry the inquiries and the reviews will be addressing. I hope be able to override any such clause where criminality is that noble Lords will be reassured by the comments in suspected? Will the inquiry be able to obtain information the Statement about the review made almost immediately from individual civil servants, whether in work or on the Permanent Secretary’s arrival in the Home retired, and from any government agency or its employees? Office. What powers will the Wanless inquiry have to compel I disagree with the noble Baroness. I do not think witnesses to provide evidence? Will it be given access that the review was inadequate. It was a very important to any and all papers, notes and minutes of meetings inquiry. It has shown us some truths about where we from government and government agencies? The inquiry are within the Home Office on that issue. It has also cannot just be given the information that it asks for; it given us encouragement to set up a further review that needs to have the freedom to investigate and to search goes across all the reviews across government. Perhaps for information that it might not yet know is available. I should concentrate on the questions that the noble The Minister will understand the serious concerns Baroness asked me in that regard. She asked whether regarding the apparent mystery of the disappearing Peter Wanless—he is a superb choice for the job and I Dickens file or files that were handed to the then am very pleased that he has agreed to take it on—will Home Secretary. What records and notes were kept of have professional support. He will have high-quality those initial meetings? Was the 2013 review able to legal support in the work that he is given. He will have identify whether any investigation or action followed a team that will enable him to get to the bottom of from those meetings? Can the Minister confirm whether this. This is not going to be a half-baked job. It is the Home Secretary has been advised of the identities going to be a thorough job delivering within eight to of the private office staff and senior civil servants who 10 weeks, we hope, a review of the situation. were aware of the documentation and asked to review As I said in the Statement, there will be total access its contents and whether they were involved in the to Home Office papers and staff and to government 2013 review? Can he confirm that they will be asked to agencies to enable Peter Wanless to get a thorough co-operate with the Wanless inquiry? Will that view of the situation. It is not the inquiry; it is a review 2013 review—inadequate as I think it is recognised of where we are and what we know already. The 59 Child Abuse[LORDS] Child Abuse 60

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] to be involved. In a situation such as this—in which, inquiry is another thing, which I will perhaps come on inevitably and sadly, people involved in various authorities to. As I said, we will be able to see all documents. The at a high level would be related to other authorities terms of reference will be placed in the House Library and institutions—it is crucial that such an inquiry is so that noble Lords can see them. allowed to go wherever it needs to go. The church and I think that it is important to see the Wanless review other organisations and institutions should explicitly in connection with the inquiry, which is a much more be involved in this matter. Perhaps I may add as far-reaching affair, designed to discover the extent to chairman of the Children’s Society that we would be which government and non-government departments, keen to stress that the voice of children and young the police and other authorities have failed in their people should be always in the centre of one’s thoughts task of protecting children and why this has happened. on any matters such as this. If any matters come to I hope that the noble Baroness will understand that light through this inquiry that need to be directed to that may well be a much longer process, but there is a the police, that will, one hopes, happen and they will commitment to come back to this House before the be dealt with swiftly and decisively. election with a Statement as to where we are on that issue. The noble Baroness will know that I will always Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I pay tribute to the role of co-operate in trying to provide information to the the church in the care of children. I am sure that the House on any subject of this nature. I have not been Home Secretary will note the offer of involvement in able to answer some of the inquiries that the noble the review and these inquiries. I am delighted that the Baroness made, but I am very happy to do so and will right reverend Prelate has raised this issue. The involvement make sure that a copy of the answers is placed in the of church activists in the national group to tackle Library for other noble Lords to see. sexual violence against children and vulnerable people is an important start. 6.07 pm Lord Fowler (Con): My Lords, I am sure that the Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, whole House will welcome the reviews, not least because, by far the most harrowing constituency surgery meetings I suspect, questions on the destruction of files go I ever attended were those where representations were much wider than the Home Office. My experience of received from victims of historic child abuse. People three government departments is that Ministers are were haunted by that abuse 40 or 50 years later. One of never consulted in or out of office on such destruction. the most difficult days I had as First Minister of My suspicion is that decisions on destruction are Scotland was when I had to issue from the Chamber taken at a fairly junior level and that at times the of the Scottish Parliament a formal apology to those whole system can be fairly chaotic. May I ask my victims on behalf of the Government and people of noble friend whether one of the aims will be to ensure Scotland. However, there is still no independent inquiry that we have a system that is fit for purpose and into historic child abuse in Scotland. I warmly welcome applies to all departments in Whitehall and where what the Government have announced today which, I decisions on destruction are taken at an appropriately presume, at this stage covers England and Wales. senior level? Victims and perpetrators will have crossed borders over the past decades. What discussions could take Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I agree with my noble place to ensure that any review at this stage or future friend. I know that he speaks from considerable experience inquiry will cover those victims and perpetrators across of government in this respect. There are in fact guidelines the whole UK? in place. New guidelines were brought in in the late 1990s to deal with the destruction of files. I imagine that Lord Taylor of Holbeach: We know that these are one of the outcomes of all this business will be to devolved matters in some areas. As the former leader determine how come 114 files are missing. At this stage of the Scottish Parliament, the noble Lord will know we do not know whether the files are significant. Mark that Scotland is affected as much of the United Kingdom Sedwill was of the view that they were not. I think that has been by these matters. We have inquiries going on the House would be entitled to ask what the titles of in Northern Ireland and north Wales. In so far as it is the files were. We do not know what they were. My not a devolved matter, the inquiry will indeed embrace noble friend is quite right to draw attention to the fact the entire United Kingdom, but it is about England that we will learn lessons here that could well be initially. However, I am sure that we can all learn from important in other aspects of government. Tragic and each other’s experiences. If there is a willingness to uncalled-for events teach us lessons about how we deal accept, across the United Kingdom, that information with things in the future. I hope that we learn from this should be exchanged between the Governments and episode. Assemblies in other parts of the United Kingdom and the inquiry, I am sure that that will be made clear. The Lord Bishop of Truro: My Lords, I welcome the I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that I have Statement. The church is keen to be involved in any received a comment about gagging and whether people such overarching inquiry. A question was asked in the will be prevented because they have signed a commitment other place about whether the church is involved in not to talk about matters. I make it clear that this is to this matter. Is the Minister aware that my friend the be a wide-ranging review. It will have access to all most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury papers and reports, as I have said, and, subject to the wrote to the Home Secretary some weeks ago asking constraints of criminal investigations, it will be free to for an inquiry such as this? The church is very willing call witnesses. We have made it clear that if the inquiry 61 Child Abuse[7 JULY 2014] Child Abuse 62 panel deems it necessary, the Government are prepared Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, the two to convert it into a free inquiry. It will have considerable inquiries that the Home Secretary has announced are powers. of course welcome. Does the Minister recognise that an eight-week review into an existing review into whether the Home Office handled things properly and a more Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I welcome the wide-ranging inquiry into whether public and other Statement, particularly the independent inquiry. Indeed, bodies have carried out their duty of care will not I added my voice to those who were calling for such an address the central, corrosive concern that is all over inquiry during my debate in your Lordships’ House on today’s newspapers, which is that it is not just about 26 June. celebrities who have managed to get away with child There is no reason why such an inquiry should in abuse over many decades, but about people in power— any way interfere with the work of the police as long Members of your Lordships’ House, Members of the as the panel has available to it people from the police other place and former Members of the other place? and the prosecuting authorities who know what is How will these processes address and restore the going on and which inquiries are actually under way. I confidence that people in power are not being allowed ask my noble friend whether such people with up-to-date to get away with things? knowledge of what is being looked into and may be looked into in the future will be attached to the panel Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The inquiry will be entirely so that it can avoid straying into areas that might independent and able to make whatever recommendations prevent perpetrators being prosecuted in the future. it makes without fear or favour. I would not be supportive, That is very important. and I do not think this House would be, of anything I ask my friend whether the inquiry will focus more that smacked of a cover up. This is about finding the on learning lessons than pointing fingers. It is the role truth and making the truth evident. If people have of the police and the prosecuting authorities to point done wrong in the past, that will be revealed by the fingers and to bring perpetrators to justice, but they inquiry. The review is designed to check that all aspects are not in the position, as the panel will be, to learn of the review conducted by Mark Sedwill, in the first overall lessons. I echo what the noble Baroness, Lady instance, and the review into the Paedophile Information Smith of Basildon, said about victims. They need to Exchange were properly conducted and whether there be at the heart of this. We need to be sure that they can were any failures in the Home Office. I should say that be heard and will have support in order to be heard. the inquiry that Mark Sedwill set up found no evidence Finally, what will be the scope of the recommendations of wrongdoing by prominent figures. However, that is that the panel will be able to make? Clearly, it will be not to say that it will not be discovered; that is a matter making recommendations on changes of practice. Will for the inquiry to find out when it comes to it. it also be able to make recommendations on changes in legislation? What will be the procedure for the Lord Deben (Con): Does my noble friend accept Government to respond to those recommendations in that he has had huge support from every side of the the fullness of time? House for what is a really important decision by the Home Secretary? Does he also accept that the whole House would want to thank Mr Wanless for taking on Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I will start on that final what will be an extremely unpleasant job? That is true point. There will be no limit on what the inquiry will of anyone who is going to take part in the inquiry and be able to tell us all about what it finds. That is the we ought to appreciate that. I hope he will also accept whole point of it. My noble friend assumed too much that anyone with information of any kind is duty when she said that it would not be pointing fingers. I bound to give that information in whichever of these think it will point fingers, and it should do so if it feels arrangements is appropriate. Does he further accept that areas of government have failed, either now or in that those without information are also duty bound the past. The panel needs to be able to tell us that, and not to talk to the public in ways which suggest that it is right and proper that it should do so. they seem to have, or pretend to have, or sometimes Of course it is important that people who have been claim to have information which they do not have? subjected to child abuse feel that this inquiry is about The issue here is too serious for it to be a matter of what has happened to them. However, the principal innuendo. This is a matter of finding the truth. Those thing that I would urge them to do is to go and tell the who have information should give it; those who do not police what has happened to them. It is for the police should shut up. to bring justice to these incidents. We are trying here to learn the mechanisms whereby we can have that Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I agree with that, but I framework and whether that is possible or easy to do. think we are right to have embarked on this difficult My noble friend asked about the constitution of exercise. I think nothing less would satisfy public the panel. I cannot give information on that. No opinion. We need to get to the bottom of what is going doubt the panel will be constructed to provide the on. We need to be satisfied in ourselves that we have right sort of expertise. We do not want the panel to be done all we can do to make sure that child abuse does so inhibited by the situation regarding criminal not flourish in any institutions with which we are prosecutions that it fails to do its work properly. It will associated. I agree totally with what my noble friend have a proper legal basis for making inquiries so that has just said, but I think the Home Secretary has prosecutions, if necessary, can follow from what it provided us with the opportunity to get to the bottom discovers. of it all. 63 Child Abuse[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 64

Lord Warner (Lab): My Lords, although I welcome Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I agree with my noble this inquiry, I ask the Minister to take back to the friend in those comments. Home Office the issue of children’s homes. I carried out an inquiry for the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, when she was Health Secretary. Children’s homes have Deregulation Bill often been a pivotal point for vulnerable children Second Reading (Continued) being exploited by people in authority and power. The inquiry will be a good opportunity to explore this area very seriously as we know from previous inquiries that 6.28 pm this has been a source of children who can be abused. Lord Brabazon of Tara (Con): My Lords, returning We need to make sure that things are improving and to the Deregulation Bill, I dare say that not every are now a lot better than they were in the 1980s and noble Lord will wish to hear my speech. I do not early 1990s. blame them. I will leave a moment or two for the Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am sure that this matter House to settle down. will be considered by the inquiry. I have no doubt that This Bill has been described by the Minister as a one of the most unpleasant things about child abuse is wide-ranging measure. Other noble Lords have described that it is often the most vulnerable who are subjected it as a Christmas tree. I have heard most of the to it. speeches on the Bill so far and they have ranged over a very large number of topics. However, there is one Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD): My Lords, I too little gem hidden away in the Bill on page 203—out of welcome this Statement by the Home Secretary and 204 pages. Paragraph 40 of Schedule 20 states: thank the Minister for repeating it here. One of the “Omit section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996”. names mentioned regularly in the press in recent days I had the honour to chair the Joint Committee on is that of the late Cyril Smith MP. Can I assure the Parliamentary Privilege, which reported a year or so Minister that no complaint—or even rumour—of ago. One of our recommendations in paragraph 170 misbehaviour on his part when a Member of the was, House of Commons ever reached the Liberal Party? If, indeed, he was one of those named in the 1980s by “the repeal of section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996. The anomalies it creates are more damaging than the mischief it was Geoffrey Dickens MP, I find it odd that he never intended to cure. There is no persuasive argument for granting relayed that information to the Liberal Party. However, either House a power of waiver or for restricting such a power to what is important is that the short, sharp Wanless defamation cases alone. A wider power of waiver would create review must reassure the public that, if politicians uncertainty, and have the potential to undermine the fundamental were guilty of molesting children, they will be revealed constitutional principle of freedom of speech in Parliament”. just like anybody else and there will be no cover up. The Government told us: “There are clearly problems with Section 13 of the Defamation Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I obviously will not talk Act. It is at odds with the principle that freedom of speech is a about any individual cases and I hope that noble privilege of the House, not just individual members and it can Lords will understand why I will not do so. The whole create an imbalance where one party to proceedings can choose to point of the exercise is that there should be no hiding use the parliamentary record but the other cannot”. place. The Government went on to say: “However, the Government is not aware of any instances in Lord Clinton-Davis (Lab): If any doubt affecting which anyone has used the power of waiver and as such it would complete public confidence arises in the future, will not appear to be a pressing priority to repeal Section 13”. Parliament be informed immediately? That is most However, I am very pleased that three of my Commons important. colleagues managed to table an amendment to put this into the Bill. It was accepted—indeed, I think the Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I think I can take it from Government added their name to it—and is therefore the sentiments of the House and from the support that now in the Bill. the Home Secretary’s Statement received in this House that if I felt the House needed to be informed I would I do not suppose that a great number of your not hesitate to seek the opportunity to do so. Lordships have actually got as far as paragraph 40 of Schedule 20—perhaps I should not say that—although Lord True (Con): My Lords, I speak as leader of a I did hear that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, at local authority which has premises which have been least got to the preceding paragraph about dog collars, the continuing subject of police investigations, with so he must have jolly nearly got there anyway, on which, obviously, the authority is co-operating and which I congratulate him. has co-operated. I welcome the Statement and agree Anyway, the amendment was successful and is now with many of the things that have been said in this part of the Bill. I congratulate the Government on House. Fundamentally, my noble friend has said that that and I hope the Bill will get a smooth passage the police investigations will not be prejudiced. At one through its remaining stages. point he said that they were less likely to be prejudiced. Can we be assured that the investigations in train will 6.31 pm not lack for resources at any point and will not be suspended and will be pursued relentlessly in every Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, this is even case where they are currently underway? People want more of a pot pourri of a Bill than the previous to see perpetrators brought to justice. regulatory Bill in which I participated in your Lordships’ 65 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 66

House. However, there are some continuing themes We need to pay it particular attention, I suggest. concerning equalities, a lack of thought about people Clause 84 would enable a Minister to specify in a who need to be considered because of their vulnerabilities, statutory instrument which regulatory functions would and the fact that regulation is often the way in which be subject to this duty; in some cases it might not public bodies and businesses ensure that protection apply to all the regulator’s functions. Clause 85 would and fairness. give power for a Minister to issue guidance on how, I will be speaking about three matters. Clauses 83 “regulatory functions may be exercised so as to promote economic to 86 concern regulators having regard to the desirability growth”, of promoting economic growth. Clause 2 concerns and how regulators subject to the duty could demonstrate tribunals’ power to make wider recommendations in that they were complying with it. Regulators subject discrimination cases—I think we have been here before. to the economic growth duty would have a duty to I will be looking at Clauses 10 to 12, as other noble regard any guidance. We saw the draft guidance an Lords have, concerning the safety of vulnerable groups hour or so before the debate started, and I will return in the taxi licensing regime; I will not stray into the to that in a moment. detail of licensing. Finally, I wish to speak about I understand that the background to these provisions clauses that are not yet in the Bill but which I hope the is the post-implementation review of the Regulators’ Government might bring forward in their own Compliance Code, and the independent report of the amendments, which would assist the growth and noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, No Stone Unturned in development of co-operative schools. Pursuit of Growth, which recommended that the I will speak about co-operative schools first. Given Government should impose such an obligation on that the Bill is supposed to be about removing barriers regulators, and creating a level playing field for enterprises, and “to take proper account of the economic consequences of their that this Government are to be commended for their actions”. support for co-operatives and mutuals, I suggest that The Government ran a consultation on this in 2013, this matter is absolutely at the heart of that support. I which maintained that a growth duty would, am aware that the Government have been holding “enable regulators to respond more comprehensively to the challenge discussions about amendments on this matter and I of stripping back burdens to the minimum necessary and proactively hope that we might see a positive outcome. supporting growth”. The matter concerns adding two additional clauses The Government stated that, to the Bill. The first would remove a clause from the “the duty needs to be imposed via primary legislation to provide Education and Inspections Act 2006 which is a barrier the legal foundation needed”. to enabling nursery schools to become full members of On these Benches, we share the concerns that have trusts—or, indeed, academies. This would help to provide been expressed by the Joint Committee chaired by my a vehicle for parental and family engagement in early noble friend Lord Rooker, the Joint Committee on years. The second would amend the School Organisation Human Rights and the Equality and Human Rights (Requirements as to Foundations) (England) Regulations Commission, which have consistently expressed concerns 2007, to ensure that schools are able to establish about the implications of applying the economic growth themselves as industrial and provident societies, should duty to the EHRC. The Joint Committee believed that it be desirable, and bringing co-operative schools in the duty in Clause 85 to have regard to ministerial line with other types of co-operative organisations. guidance, Despite an all-party commitment to co-operatives “raises serious questions about the EHRC’s independence”, and mutuals in the public sector, co-operative schools because of the implications of the proposed growth have had to work around existing legislation because duty for the UK’s compliance with the United Nations’ no provision is made in the relevant Education Acts Paris principles if the duty applies to national human for schools to be established as industrial and provident rights institutions such as the EHRC. They are supposed societies as currently defined in the 1965 Act. My to be independent organisations which decide which proposed new clause seeks to amend this and ensure human rights and equalities issues to address. The that any future legislation provides a level playing field Joint Committee on Human Rights said: and a more understandable legal framework. I hope the Minister will agree that these new clauses would be “Applying the economic growth duty to the EHRC poses a a good addition to his Bill. significant risk to the EHRC’s independence”, and that this should not be pursued in the way that the Clauses 83 provides that while exercising their Government are doing. regulatory function, regulators must, The chair of the EHRC, the noble Baroness, Lady “have regard to the desirability of promoting economic growth”, O’Neill of Bengarve, was asked whether applying the and must, growth duty to the EHRC might undermine the Paris “in particular, consider the importance for the promotion of principles on the independence of the commission. economic growth”, She said: of ensuring that any regulatory action they take is “We have tended to agree with this Committee that, prima necessary and proportionate. At Second Reading, Oliver facie, it would indeed threaten the A-status”, Letwin, the Minister for Government Policy, described of the EHRC as an international equality and human this as, rights body. She continued: “probably the single most important clause in the Bill”.—[Official “Therefore, it would be proposed that we come under the duty Report, Commons, 3/2/14; col. 37.] with respect to very specific functions. The debate between us and 67 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 68

[BARONESS THORNTON] However I register a caveat. In the debate occasioned government at this stage is over how specific it would have to be by the Second Reading of the proposed legislation of and whether it is worth the candle when you get to that degree of the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, on this specificity”. topic on 27 June, the noble and learned Lord, Lord I think she is probably correct. Mackay, made an important point. I also pay tribute I looked at the draft guidance that we received to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, who has played a before the debate to see if I could find some comfort major role in bringing about the change envisaged in from it. Actually, I think it created more smoke than the Bill. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of elucidation. What we have to do in Committee—as I Clashfern, made a point that must be reflected on, intend to—is consider what might happen were this even by those who are extremely enthusiastically in duty to be applied under particular circumstances. So favour of this change, when he said that, we need to look at, for example, maternity leave where “the question is whether it is right that a Member of Parliament companies have been found wanting and the cost of can be defamed by people in respect of something that he or she putting that right, and whether that could be balanced has said or done in Parliament and that, if that happens, he or she against the economic growth duty. has no remedy”.—[Official Report, 27/6/2014; col. 1522.] I will be seeking, as I think other noble Lords will, There is a problem here. In my view, the balance is to look at the proposal to remove the power of right. The principle of parliamentary privilege cannot employment tribunals under the Equality Act to make be, as it were, individualised. That was the problem wider recommendations in discrimination cases. This with the situation we had from 1996 to the present. It is an important power. It is not one that we should must be placed at the level of Parliament as a whole if throw away. Most companies, when they lose, apply it is to be understood and respected by the public. the tribunal’s recommendations to all their employees, None the less, a difficulty is created. I draw the parties’ but not all do. Surely those employees deserve the attention to the duty of care that they will have, same protection as others, so we will be seeking to particularly to new Members, in the next Parliament. It remove that from the Bill. We will also be asking the is related also to another piece of legislation, which is Government what the evidence is that this needs to be in the Queen’s Speech, for recall. In both these cases, if done because we do not think that the evidence is they get it wrong the consequences for a new MP there any more than it was the first time the Government could be really dramatic. That is the way we are going. tried to do this. There is a sense that Parliament understands that Finally, on taxi licensing, we oppose the Government’s the public expects higher standards from Members of proposal to reform taxi minicab law because it will put Parliament than they do from other public servants passengers at risk. My honourable friends in the Commons and Parliament is trying, through these measures, to opposed this when it was inserted late in the Committee address public concerns about honesty in our public stage. We believe that these targets to cut red tape are life. The impulse that is leading Parliament to act in rushed and risky, poorly drafted and badly consulted this way is entirely reasonable, but it does mean that on. Where they have been consulted on, safety organisations, Parliament has a duty to ensure that new Members the police and industry bodies are warning that the understand the ways in which legislation is changing. Government’s proposed reforms could have very severe There are vulnerabilities now that did not exist in the safety implications. These include the Suzy Lamplugh past and prices to be paid if we get these things wrong. Trust, which campaigns for better personal safety and has raised concerns that enabling anyone to drive a It is perfectly reasonable to argue that IPSA has licensed minicab will provide greater opportunities for effectively resolved the issue of expenses—that the those who are intent on preying on women. recent issues have been historical ones that go back to before the time of the new IPSA regime. However, anybody who believes that issues around lobbying, or 6.40 pm even cash for questions, have disappeared and are issues of the 1990s simply has not been reading the Lord Bew (CB): My Lords, like the noble Lord, newspapers in the past three or four years. Therefore, Lord Brabazon, I praise the golden words to be found it is all the more important that the induction programme in paragraph 40 of Schedule 20 to the Bill: for new MPs should help with these questions. “Omit section 13 of the Defamation Act 1996 (which allows an individual litigant in defamation cases to waive the ban in At the beginning of the previous Parliament, the Article IX of the Bill of Rights on proceedings in Parliament Hansard Society put on an induction programme that being impeached or questioned in court)”. was poorly attended. The ethics section was particularly As the noble Lord said, this was the view of the Joint poorly attended. The parties must have a major role Committee on Parliamentary Privilege, which he chaired here. They should encourage new Members in the new so ably. We are very much indebted to the members of Parliament, explain where public opinion is and explain that committee in another place who pushed this the ways in which legislation is changing. They should matter forward so skilfully, but it was the view not also explain, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord only of our committee, but of the committee chaired Mackay, pointed out on Friday 27 June in this Chamber, by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls of that Members now have a vulnerability they did not Birkenhead, in 1999. What it does is effectively to have before: they do not have the protection that they resolve the ambiguities created by the Neil Hamilton previously had over what they say in the Chamber. case of 1996. We are indebted to the Government for These are important matters and it is the responsibility finally grasping this nettle and I offer my support to of Parliament, and particularly the responsibility of this part of the Bill. the parties, to take them on board. 69 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 70

I welcome this new legislation. It is absolutely correct chances it and sits in that box and blocks the traffic. If in principle but there is a caveat: there is a responsibility the Government are open to persuasion that there on the political parties that are pushing the legislation should be exemptions to ending closed circuit TV through to make sure that newly elected Members prosecutions in these areas, those exemptions should know exactly where they stand and where the law now be in the Bill and we will seek to achieve that. stands. It is not, in this matter, where it has stood The measure in the Bill on maritime accident since 1996. investigation seems to us a miserable and mean little gesture on the part of the Government. The House 6.46 pm will know that the most significant case in recent years involved the MV “Derbyshire”, which was lost in the Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): My Lords, I speak South China Sea a few years ago with everybody on from the Back Benches because we have two excellent board—all 42 crew and two wives travelling—lost. Front-Benchers who are concerned with the Bill. I find There was always the suggestion, while nothing could that my usual blissful state of either opening on legislation be proved, that somebody had blundered and that the or winding up has now been reduced to a middle accident had occurred because seamanship was deficient. position in the debate, where everything I want to say When the wreck was eventually identified, it became has already been said and, if I make a mistake, there clear that the circumstances in which the vessel went are enough people behind me to call me out. So it is down were nothing to do with error on the part of the with a degree of nervousness that I make a few short crew or with their seamanship. The case was reopened comments on the Bill. thanks to great efforts by my noble friend Lord Prescott, We have serious reservations about the three main who was Minister at the time and who had a long transport areas of the Bill. Those concerned with the history with the seamen, and great pressure from the regulation of taxis and minicabs, particularly the National Union of Seamen, which, together with deregulation of minicabs, which my noble friend Lady international forces that came in to help, funded a Thornton identified a moment ago, raise serious risks great deal of the investigation. It is now suggested in for the public. We should recognise that people, particularly the Bill that the Secretary of State should not be women, book minicabs for the security of the service bothered to reopen such investigations except in specific being offered. That is being blown apart by the Bill. circumstances. The cab firm could pass on the telephone call and Sea accidents are such that we should treat them engage another company. The person who has booked with the greatest seriousness. We surely cannot have a the cab will not have that surety, and it has the Bill in which they are taken lightly. My noble friend potential to let rogue drivers exploit the looseness in Lord Rooker, in his excellent speech, identified this the Bill. There have been a few examples in recent issue as one that did not add to the quality of the Bill. years of dreadful things being carried out in cabs. At least I have kept to time. The Bill needs to be amended in that area. We should recognise that the black cab trade is worried 6.53 pm about this situation. It is always worried about minicab Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con): My Lords, I competition and so it should be—minicab competition was very pleased that, in introducing the Bill, the has the right to present a challenge—but we know that Minister reminded us that one of its main purposes new technology, such as the Uber technology that is a was to create jobs and enterprise. That was echoed by source of great concern at present, is creating a situation the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who hoped that the whereby anybody can call a minicab at any time and Bill would stimulate the economy. My noble friend minicabs will not suffer from the restrictions forced on Lord Fowler told us quite rightly that it was important them in the past. The black cab trade is central to safe, that restrictions and regulations that were brought in secure and proper transport in some of our cities, some time ago to meet the circumstances of the time particularly London, and is admired all over the world, should be looked at again, as the world has changed. in all the world’s great cities. We should take threats to That brings me neatly to the one point that I want to that seriously. make today, which is about Sunday trading. The second area we are concerned about is the It is now 20 years since the Sunday Trading Act banning of CCTV for parking enforcement. I have great became law and, of course, the world has changed sympathy with the Government in seeking to tackle a considerably since then. Sundays are now a huge family problem whereby the citizen receives a fine through day, with great sporting events—people go to football the post, not having been aware that a charge has been in a way that never happened on such a scale previously— laid, to which they have to make immediate return. We concerts and cultural activities. It is a fantastic opportunity do not seem to have tackled this issue thoroughly or for families to get together. The Government recognised properly. On 10 June, the Government said that they this two years ago during the Olympics. They recognised had not reached a decision; on 17 June an amendment that, in the new world, the current restrictions were was made to the Bill in other place and was immediately not appropriate, so they relaxed the Sunday trading translated into the Bill by a government majority. laws for eight consecutive weekends. They knew that There are real risks to road safety. There are risks at people and their families wanted to shop at a time of schools. There are risks in bus lanes, where drivers will their choosing and not at a time laid down by officialdom chance it if they think they will not be surveyed. There and red tape. are risks at bus stops. There are risks at yellow boxes Sunday trading was mentioned in passing by the on junctions. They are a good idea and have eased noble Lord, Lord Monks, who is not in his place. I say congestion, but a good idea is destroyed if one driver to him that there has been one other major development 71 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 72

[LORD SHERBOURNE OF DIDSBURY] from people about which operator they want to use. in today’s world, which is the number of people who We change operators from time to time when we are work right through the week on different days and at not satisfied with a particular company, but if this Bill strange hours. They do so because they want to meet is approved, we will have no control over who will the needs of their customers. In particular, there are come. It may well be a company that you have left those in the public sector, the public servants on whom because you were not satisfied with it. If you ring we all rely, who have to provide 24/7 service to their company A, company B may turn up, and you may customers, patients and so on. Should not those public not necessarily want to use it. Therefore, we need to servants be on the receiving end of similar flexibility think again about this particular aspect of the Bill on a Sunday as well? allowing subcontracting to other firms. There has been another change since the Act came Regarding the provision allowing a driver without a in 20 years ago, which is 24-hour online shopping. I PHV licence to drive a licensed PHV when it is not think that younger people find the idea very quaint being used for private hire, I know many people in the that people should not be allowed to shop between taxi trade. Many of my family are in the trade and I certain hours on a Sunday. know that by allowing taxis to be used by others, some Under the current law, shops of more than 3,000 square of them may benefit. In some cases, spouses may want feet can open only for restricted hours on a Sunday. to use the car when it is not being used for taxiing Smaller shops do not have restricted hours. As a purposes, but they cannot at the moment because the result, the big supermarket chains have been opening law does not allow them to do so. In that case, it would their own small stores of less than 3,000 square feet be helpful to allow other family members to use those and then charging in them significantly more than in vehicles for other purposes—for family purposes—when their larger supermarkets. Surveys show that, in some they are off duty. of these supermarket “mini” or “local” stores, prices However, I have been strongly lobbied by many are on average 10% higher. Customers rightly see that companies and unions, particularly Unite, GMB and as something of a rip-off. RMT, which have put some valid points forward. There is a higher risk that those cars could be used as Lord Rooker: The noble Lord gives an excellent taxis by rogue drivers. They could be made available to example. About six months ago, I did a shopping those who are not necessarily taxi drivers and have not survey in the town where I live, Ludlow. I bought taken their tests. By allowing this to happen, we could identical products in One Stop, which does not label compromise public safety. However, it may well help if itself as Tesco but is wholly owned by it, and in the we allowed named drivers to use those vehicles instead Tesco supermarket in the town. All the products went of any driver. In that case, at least we would know that to the food bank afterwards. The noble Lord is absolutely the people who use those vehicles will be known to right: there is a 10% difference in price. A small store family members. Therefore, I hope that the Minister can open from 6 am to 11 pm because it is not will give some consideration to this and perhaps have governed by the Sunday trading laws, but there is named drivers, instead of any person, driving those definitely a premium to be paid in those small stores vehicles when they are not being used for taxiing purposes. owned by the supermarkets. 7.04 pm Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury: I am grateful to the noble Lord for that comment, which is reinforced by Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab): My Lords, this surveys that show exactly the same thing: prices are on is an extraordinary Bill, covering almost every aspect average 10% higher. That is a rip-off in my view. of life. I shall concentrate on aspects of particular concern to me. Others have done the same and I am An anomaly in the current law is the way in which interested to hear what they say. Why do we have garden centres have been caught up in these restrictions—I regulation? Surely it is because we live in a competitive do not think that that was ever the intention—because environment and need to protect the interests of others their products are spread over a larger area than who would otherwise risk being damaged. If we change 3,000 square feet. Garden centres are a big part of the regulations, we have to be very careful that in so family outings. doing we do not damage other people who would I am not asking the Minister for much. This is a otherwise be vulnerable. very large Bill, with more than 200 pages, so I am sure As we know, the Bill begins with a clause on health that it would not be impossible for him to add perhaps and safety at work. It proposes to include a general one extra page. duty on the self-employed to others involved in the undertaking, but not particularly to employees. There 6.59 pm is a reference to the construction industry, in which Lord Hussain (LD): My Lords, I want to address quite a number of self-employed people are involved, the provisions relating to taxis and private hire vehicles. but I am more concerned about the general duty to We choose to use taxi operators that we trust. If I ask employees as a whole. In the last Session, the Government my children to use a taxi at an odd time, I tell them introduced a change to the legislation, making it more which taxi rank to use, because that is the one that I difficult for employees to sue for compensation in the have confidence in and which I trust. The proposal to event of injury—or even death—at work. In this House, allow taxis to subcontract to other operators will we opposed that change, but the Government defeated mean that it will not be possible for anybody to have our amendment in the House of Commons. What is their choice. We are going to take the choice away proposed in this Bill does not assist ordinary employees 73 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 74 very much, although it may be relevant to self- Bill does not recommend that that should continue. It employment, but in Committee we will have to return is clearly necessary that there should be some development once again to the issue of ordinary employees who are to provide alternative work in areas that have been still at risk, as far as certain undertakings are concerned. rendered into that situation, providing no employment and no support for the local people. We then have a reference to employment tribunals: a change to the Equality Act so that a tribunal will not There are a number of other issues in the Bill to be able to make recommendations wider than the which I shall not refer because many noble Lords have actual case under decision. Like other noble Lords, I dealt with them this afternoon. It is clear that a do not see why this is necessary. No reason at all has number of issues are matters for further scrutiny and been given for this change and it should be opposed in could be rendered more acceptable to some of us if Committee. I certainly intend to do so. they were amended. We will pursue that when the Bill is before us in Committee. Clauses 3 and 4 relate to English apprenticeships. It is said that the funding proposals will encourage individuals to do approved English apprenticeships or 7.11 pm to work afterwards. I hope that this is so and that there Lord Grade of Yarmouth (Con): My Lords, by my are arrangements for suitable funding. This is extremely calculation, I am the 25th cab on the rank today—licensed important. It is an aspect that, again, we should look or unlicensed, I am not sure. at in more detail when it is before us in Committee. The Bill is indeed a weighty tome, a very heavy There is then a list of recommendations dealing volume. In a previous life, I might have been tempted with taxis and private car hire. As someone who uses to put it on one side and wait for the film, but even if it car hire frequently because of disability, I am interested is made at Pinewood, I do not think that would be in ensuring that the drivers are safe and mostly good appropriate. in their driving—and they seem to be. Driving in I should like to refer to two or three matters. The London is crowded and often expensive and the Bill noble Lord, Lord Tope, referred to Clause 34, about will obviously make no difference to that, but is it short-term use of London accommodation. This being really a good idea to allow people who are not licensed a deregulation Bill, that caught my eye because I was to drive private hire cars? I do not think so and neither trying to understand why London was separate from do a number of noble Lords who have already spoken the rest of the country in respect of legislation of this in the debate. It was noted that women could be at kind, whether this was regulation or deregulation, and risk, particularly going home late at night. I hope that whether there are homogeneous rules across all London this is something that shall look at with great scrutiny boroughs. That is a source of great confusion to me in in Committee. a deregulation Bill. It would be very interesting to The Bill refers to housing, in particular what is know, at a time when housing is in such short supply, known as the right to buy. A clause reduces the particularly in Greater London, whether there is cause qualifying period for people who wish to buy their for reregulation of some kind and why we cannot just social housing from five to three years. There is no be consistent with the rest of the home nations. doubt that this provision was popular with many The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, with whom I have had people, who were thus able to acquire property that many an agreeable conversation over the years on they would not have been able to afford on the private matters of broadcasting, raised the issue of Section 73 market. However, many of us were critical at the time, of the Copyright Act 1988. That is not in the Bill. The because no replacement was made of the social housing noble Lord eloquently described the anomaly that it that disappeared as a result of the right to buy. It has created. Opportunities in the legislative timetable therefore does not seem right in the present circumstances of Parliament to put right things that have gone to make it easier for people to buy local authority horribly wrong are very rare, and this is one of those housing when there is still such a shortage of social things, at a time when the creative industries in this housing. I think that everybody agrees that there is a country are so important to economic growth. The terrible shortage of social housing and there should be Bill is about growth. The growth of investment in concentration on that. British television product is leaking a lot of value as a result of the 1988 Act, which was designed to create As far as the final schedule, Schedule 20, is concerned, greater competition in the fledgling cable market. The there is a set of proposals for legislation to be removed. cable market is hardly fledgling now; it is dwarfing the It is proposed that legislation that is no longer of public service broadcasters in this country. It has practical use should be removed. That includes legislation attracted Liberty, one of the world’s biggest media on formerly nationalised industries that have been companies, to own Virgin Media in this country. It privatised. Obviously, legislation is no longer required appears that the commercial public service broadcasters for such industries, especially ones such as mining and are now leaking value as a result of Section 73, and steel. this is absolutely the appropriate time in the parliamentary There was a TV programme recently, “Benefits timetable to redress that and ensure that funds are Britain”, dealing with areas where, once, steel provided flowing into British production, as they should. I look employment for the whole community—no longer. forward to participating in debates on amendments to The people were feeling hopeless, left without employment. that effect. The Bill has nothing to say about that. There is a Clauses 59 and 60 relate to the BBC. I am sorry that reference earlier in the Bill to a sustainable community my noble friend Lord Fowler is not in his place, but it strategy to be undertaken by local authorities, but the is probably just as well, because an argument about 75 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 76

[LORD GRADE OF YARMOUTH] Each area needs to be looked at as a consistent whole. the BBC Trust would detain your Lordships far too The way not to do it is for the Cabinet Office to write long, and we can take that offline. As my headmaster round to the rest of Whitehall saying, “Can we have used to say, “See me afterwards”. 24 clauses that we need to delete so that we can get rid It is of course right that the Government should of them all in one Bill in the last Session of this consult and consider whether it is possible to decriminalise Parliament?”, but that seems to be what it has done. non-payment of the licence fee. However, Clause 60 The one area in which the Government have taken seems to anticipate charter review—a point made by a more coherent, comprehensive approach from full many noble Lords—which is worrying. We do not know consultation is rights of way. I told the Minister that what the funding future of the BBC will be, we do not they were very sensible to do that. I was the Minister know what the governance structure will be, and so who brought in the Countryside and Rights of Way on: that is all part of a process to come immediately Act; it was a pretty torrid time in this House, I can tell after the election, if it has not started already. you, with all sorts of different interests, but we have a Also, the power of the Secretary of State in Clause 60 package which is largely agreed. I agree with other could in unscrupulous hands be used in future as a speakers that that may not be the end of the story, and stick to beat the BBC and, perhaps, challenge its I warn the Minister that there will be attempts to independence or even threaten it. I am not saying that unravel or add to it, but that is the way we should the present Secretary of State would have any such approach each of those areas. Instead, we have piecemeal thoughts, but it is a worrying trend. I hope that the bits of legislation that we are going to cross out. Some BBC clauses will get a good debate. I hope that we can of them are utterly redundant, and I am absolutely in get reassurance from my noble friends on the Front favour of crossing them off the statute book—there Bench that implementation will await the outcome of are still bits in Norman French that we ought to be charter review. It makes no sense at all to put the cart deleting from the statute book. These need to go. We before the horse. have a process for doing that; we have a Law Commission, In summary, as I said, I am hugely supportive of a which is proposing how we get rid of redundant statutory deregulation Bill of this weight. As your Lordships provision. It also, incidentally, has good ideas on how will know, this House is a repository of some of the we consolidate legislation. Having got that machine, greatest expertise in the land on a million different somehow we never find enough parliamentary time to subjects. They are all contained in the Bill, and I wish implement its recommendations; the next Parliament those on our Front Bench all the very best in steering needs to look at how we can do that better. it through. There are some areas that I will comment on specifically but I think the Government and future Governments have to reflect on the way we deal with this. The better 7.16 pm regulation approach—I see the noble Lord, Lord Curry, just coming in—was looking on behalf of the whole of Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, I think I start from government at different areas. Rather than this piecemeal, that point. I have a whole range of comments on the portmanteau Bill, perhaps we should have followed Bill, which start with Clause 1, relating to the self-employed procedure a bit more closely. Having got that off my being excluded from health and safety duties, and end chest, I will comment on one or two aspects of the Bill. on page 202. As a vice-president of the LGA, I know that one of its anxieties has been about the provisions I follow my noble friend Lord Davies in relation to on the breeding of dogs on the last but one page of the the transport provisions and, in particular, CCTV.This Bill. is populism gone mad. If we cannot enforce parking However, as comments have been made on most of restrictions, we not only endanger the safety of road users those points, I will start by being a bit more general, and pedestrians but also provide no parking space for philosophical and procedural. Although the Government motorists. If people can continue to park in restricted do not exactly look like Bourbons, they have learnt nothing areas with impunity, there will be no parking space for and forgotten nothing. The coalition started this the vast majority. By adopting the Jeremy Clarkson Parliament by bringing into this House a Public Bodies interpretation of the motorists’ interests, the Government Bill which managed, in all parts of the economy and have gone down exactly the wrong road. Just as the society, to alienate large chunks of civic society. We taxi provisions are not in the interests of the users of had representations, and the Government had to drop taxis, these parking provisions are not in the interests a major part of the Bill. Thanks to my noble friend of the vast majority of motorists; our towns will get Lord Rooker and his committee, one of the worst clogged up and there will be more accidents. parts of the original draft of this Bill has been jettisoned On housing, the right to buy is perhaps the most this time, because we had pre-legislative scrutiny. Having obvious aspect of my general contention. The right to a portmanteau Bill such as this is exactly the wrong buy has been hugely contentious. I do not oppose the way to go about modernising our regulation. principle of right to buy. However, in the present I am in favour of better regulation; I am not necessarily housing crisis, it is very important that any exercise of in favour of deregulation. The best way to deal with the right to buy is put in the context of what is our legislative inheritance and what is needed for available in social housing, and affordable housing modern society is to take each area of regulation, look generally. We have one provision in relation to eligibility at it every two or three years, and ask what is still for right to buy. The right to buy was very good for relevant, what is cost-effective, what is working, what those people who would never be able to afford their is absolutely redundant and what is counterproductive. own house or who were too old to get a mortgage. 77 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 78

That does not mean people who have been in social UK law. Conversely, we are not able to challenge housing for only three years. The right to buy is for foreign ships when they transgress in our own ports on people who have been tenants for a large proportion the latest changes for the very same reason. of their life and deserve a chance to get on the housing The new clause will permit any change in maritime ladder. At the same time—tomorrow, I think—in the conventions to which the UK is a party to be automatically Moses Room we are dealing with the change in the incorporated into UK law by the use of dynamic right to buy provisions relating to the discount. Therefore, ambulatory references. I am not a lawyer—I am sure a we have two changes in different parts of the House in lawyer would understand that—but it is very much a relation to one subject that needs to be seen in a wider speeding-up process. What are the advantages? First, context. The right to buy ought to be a local decision. it will simplify the whole process and level out the The provision, eligibility and discounts for the right to playing field for both UK and international shipping. buy are not suitable for national legislation, but should Secondly, it will remove the lengthy process of having address the housing market in the locality. In any case, to issue a new statutory instrument every time a change it is an example of something that needs to be seen in is made to a maritime convention, and it will do away the round. with the risk of gold-plating legislation, something Clause 83 relates to putting another requirement on that we are rather prone to in this country. Thirdly, it all non-economic regulators. Most legislation on regulation will improve the reputation of the UK abroad, where over the past 15 years has inserted the provision on we are deemed to be rather slow and out of date in economic and non-economic regulators that they should adopting new international maritime standards in law. have regard to sustainable development. Quite often UK shipping was reinvigorated by the introduction the previous Government, in their initial years, were of the tonnage tax in 2000. Since then, the UK-owned slightly resistant to that, but they were persuaded by fleet has increased almost threefold and the UK-registered the sensible arguments of the Liberal Democrats by fleet, albeit from a very low base, by more than six and large, to put those provisions in. That meant one times. Shipping is still important to this country. The had to look after the economics, the environmental shipping, ports and maritime sectors between them effect and the social effect. Obviously the main focus contribute £31.7 billion to UK GDP and support for any individual regulator was one or other of those more than 500,000 jobs. Shipping is a highly competitive three corners, but they all had regard to all three. This business and anything that can be done to help, as in seems to have an override, even for areas such as this instance with the new clause, is very much to be human rights and environmental controls that should welcomed. not be overridden by short-term economic considerations. There is a real danger in that. 7.28 pm The world and his wife will be agitated about various Lord Macdonald of Tradeston (Lab): My Lords, I aspects of the Bill. Some of it—probably most of hope to persuade the Government to consider an it—is very sensible and I can support it. However, I amendment to the Deregulation Bill. I declare an wish the Government would not go down this road. interest having formerly worked in independent television When one gets to almost the very final page, there is for 30 years. Like my noble friend Lord Dubs and the an interesting provision relating to the deletion of noble Lord, Lord Grade, who spoke earlier, my concern offences by people who fly kites. I am in total agreement is that the content of our public service broadcasters— with that because it is a grave inhibition on the work of BBC, ITV,Channel 4 and Channel Five—is increasingly the House. being retransmitted without payment by cable and online streaming companies. These companies package public service broadcasting content on their platforms 7.25 pm and can then place their own unregulated adverts Lord Greenway (CB): My Lords, I shall not be around it. With personal video recorders now encouraging tempted to follow the noble Lords, Lord Davies of the time-shifting of programmes, and capable of storing Oldham and Lord Rooker, into discussing Clause 40 hundreds of hours of high-quality drama, popular regarding marine accident investigations. We will have entertainment and, of course, sporting events, these plenty of time for that in Committee. I will confine my personal video recorders are major revenue drivers for remarks to Clause 81, which seeks to amend the pay-TV platforms. Merchant Shipping Act 1995 in relation to the The issue of retransmission is rising up the policy implementation of international maritime conventions, agenda worldwide. In the United States, the steady which emerged from the International Maritime decline of television advertising revenue is being offset Organisation just across the river on the Albert by the income that broadcasters get from retransmission Embankment. Currently in this country these are revenue: $2.36 billion in 2012. That may explain why implemented through a mix of primary and secondary US TV is increasingly producing so many successful legislation. This has led to a very complex regulatory drama series, while our advertising-funded PSB channels system that is confusing, time consuming—statutory struggle to maintain their output of quality popular instruments can take just as long as primary legislation programming, with their share of advertising revenue to go through both Houses—and resource intensive. It in decline. also results in delay that can often be to the detriment We can debate whether we still have the best TV in of British shipping. For instance, our ships can be the world, but what is indisputable is that sales of challenged during control inspections in foreign ports programmes and formats provide very valuable income for not being up to scratch with the latest convention for the UK’s creative sector. ITV’s “Downton Abbey”, when those changes have not been incorporated into for instance, sells in 250 territories with an estimated 79 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 80

[LORD MACDONALD OF TRADESTON] this from happening by allowing the retransmission of 100 million viewers in China alone. Reformatted, “Strictly PSB content without any payment in recognition of Come Dancing” can be seen in 50 countries, and the value that it represents. “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?” in more than 100. The Bill is designed to remove burdensome regulation. However, in these times of disruptive technologies and Section 73 clearly meets that criterion. Supporting its increasing commercial competition across the media, removal by subsequent amendment to the Bill will our public service broadcasters should not be subsidising help to ensure that our public service broadcasters can international media conglomerates such as Liberty continue to produce and commission quality programming Global, which now owns Virgin Media. made here in the UK. Our PSBs do not get paid by those who retransmit their output because of the now redundant Section 73 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. As 7.34 pm the noble Lord, Lord Grade, said, this legislation was Lord Cope of Berkeley (Con): My Lords, I start originally intended to encourage the rollout of cable in prepared in principle to cheer on its way any Bill the United Kingdom—but the world has moved on in labelled a Deregulation Bill. Mind you, it has come the past 26 years. We now have a highly competitive out this afternoon, if one did not realise it from pay-TV market in satellite, cable and, increasingly, reading the Bill, that much in it is not exactly deregulation online. Section 73, designed to boost cable coverage by but reregulation and so on. One of the worst features allowing retransmission of UK public service channels of modern life is the multiplicity of regulations. I do at no cost, has now become the unintended loophole not mean that regulation itself is bad. Of course not; for commercial online platforms to stream PSB we all realise that regulation is essential in very large programming without permission or payment. These parts of life. The problem, particularly for a small companies do not reinvest their online profits in the business, for example, is on the one hand the multiplicity UK creative content that makes their services so attractive. of regulations and on the other the fact that they are Indeed, they divert money from the UK production constantly changing. This changing factor is part of sector because of Section 73, which could be repealed the difficulty, which is a problem when it comes to a by an amendment to this Bill. Deregulation Bill. The personal video recorders—the so-called PVRs— I have been arguing in favour of deregulation for a used by customers on cable or online platforms can long time—over 40 years or so of parliamentary life—but store, as I said, hundreds of hours of PSB-produced so have a lot of other people. The previous Government, drama or entertainment. For instance, ITV’s “Downton as well as the present one, have given a lot of attention Abbey” is time-shifted by almost half of cabled homes, to it. Yetthroughout that time, and for that matter before, using their TiVo PVRs, but most viewers then fast regulations have been and still are breeding like weeds forward through the recorded advertising breaks, which in a garden. While I welcome the Bill in general, I have means that ITV gets paid less by its advertisers. Given some reflections on Second Reading about deregulation the importance the Government attach to our creative and the complications of regulation itself. industries, they should surely be more purposive towards I do not think that I am the only Member of this the timely removal of Section 73 in this fast-changing House who believes that one problem with our modern digital world. legislative drafting habits is that every Bill, even this one, is littered with statutory instruments—even though They may be inhibited by ongoing litigation between the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, and his colleagues have PSBs and one of the many online streaming services, succeeded very well in getting the Henry VIII one which has been going on for some four years already, removed from this Bill. Yet statutory instruments flow as my noble friend Lord Dubs said, but that kind of through the Moses Room like the waters of the sea litigation need not be an excuse for inaction. My when Moses first arrived on its banks—except that advice is that the Interpretation Act 1978 speaks to there seems to be no way of stemming the tide, as he this very issue. It provides that where an Act repeals an did when he parted those waters. Moreover, they are enactment, the repeal does not affect any investigation, only the statutory instruments that require debate by legal proceedings or remedy. The irony is that the your Lordships’ House. They are affirmative instruments, copyright Act of 1988, which includes Section 73, for the most part, but businesses have to take account itself came into force despite related ongoing legislation of many negative instruments as well. at that time. I am contemplating moving a new version of Dunning’s The Government promised, more than a year ago, famous Motion of 1780, which would say that “The that they would consult on Section 73 in the current number of statutory instruments has increased, is review of the Communications Act. That has not increasing and ought to be diminished”. How far we happened. However, do they not agree that the will get, I am not sure—and I emphasise “diminished” Communications Act 2003 superseded Section 73 by rather than abolished. For the record, I do not blame making a “must offer” provision that ensured PSBs the proliferation of statutory instruments on the must offer their content to platforms, parliamentary draftsmen; I think that the blame lies within the various departments. Legislation is insufficiently “subject to the agreement of terms”? prepared, so the details of a Bill have to be filled in That is the crucial difference, since it means that PSBs after enactment. For some details, that is entirely in can enter into commercial negotiations with each platform, order, but too many are left to be filled in in that way. I as they do with BSkyB; in contrast, Section 73 prevents pay tribute in passing to the existence and work of the 81 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 82

Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, welcomed. I believe firmly that its remit should be and I look forward to its report on delegated powers extended to cover the construction industry, as it is an memoranda, which it is currently working on. area that is crying out for some protection for exploited Like the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, my noble friend workers. However, today I shall concentrate on two Lord Naseby and others, I am a supporter of the work areas: Clause 1 on health and safety for the self-employed, of the Law Commission in this field of deregulation, and Clause 34 on short lets in London, which have particularly on cancelling parts of the law that are no already been referred to by the noble Lord, Lord longer required. I also think that it is better placed Grade, and a noble Lord who is not in his place. than Parliament to look at areas of the law, and to I will deal with the short lets in London first. If this suggest improvements and parts that should be done measure is passed, and I profoundly hope that it is not, away with. I am sympathetic to the idea of annual the unintended consequences will be detrimental to SLR Bills—an idea that should certainly be considered rich and poor alike. This is a strange gloss on the further by government. Prime Minister’s slogan that “We’re all in this together”. I recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, did just Take a settled residential block north of the river. All now, the difficulty of finding legislative time for Law the residents are comfortably off, with security provided Commission Bills in general. I am also sympathetic to 24 hours a day. If this legislation is enacted, the the idea that my noble friend Lady Eaton drew our sub-letters and online letting companies will march in. attention to: namely, the Local Government Association The premiums are such that you can make three times proposals for rewiring licences in that field. My noble as much income as you can from ordinary longer-term friend knows much more about it than I do, but I have lettings. Even if we disregard the diminution in housing read something about it in the past and I have seen an stock in London, which is already at crisis point, the account of it, about which I can say only that it looked health tourists would move in and out with their good to me. families, treating the place like a hotel and an A&E I reflect on my experience of deregulation as a department combined. Minister. Sometimes, of course, efforts to simplify have exactly the opposite effect. For example, when I If you are really unlucky, the prostitutes and housing was at the Treasury, along with Customs and Excise benefit fraudsters will move in, while at best it will we went to great efforts to make VAT easier for small become a temporary residence for overseas businessmen businesses instead of having a sharp cut-off between and their families, who are often no respecters of those who were not involved and those who were fully other people’s property or peace of mind. The residents enmeshed. Several alternative schemes were introduced will experience an increase in unauthorised rubbish for VAT for small businesses, but the danger then was dumping—and flooding, if they live in flats below the that you needed knowledgeable advice about which temporary residence. By the way, it will be virtually scheme you ought to go to for your particular impossible for the fire authorities to keep track of this. circumstances in business and how it was going to The nature of the residential block will change and move over the next few years, in order to know which there will be nothing that the majority of residents can scheme to choose. The schemes were good and worth do about it. They in turn will be tempted to move in while, but deciding which one to use gave you another order to escape the disruption when temporary letting complicated headache. becomes the norm in that block of flats. To my knowledge, this is already happening at the margins. I know what a difficult business deregulation inevitably is. I have every sympathy with my noble friends on the As the noble Lord, Lord Tope, said, the British Front Bench as we look forward to the Committee Hospitality Association, the Bed and Breakfast stage of the Bill—which, as we have heard today, is Association and many others have sent submissions going to be of some length and complexity, to put it about this clause. Westminster City Council has provided no stronger. This has been frequently described as a an excellent briefing as well. That council has done a Christmas tree of a Bill, but I think that Christmas is sterling job in fending off the marauders. Yes, I am going to be a long time coming as far as my colleagues praising a Conservative council. All those bodies are are concerned. However, the Second Reading of the saying the same thing: the proposed change will pave Bill is the time to congratulate the Government on the way for largely unregulated short-term online rental tackling the subject vigorously and to wish them the companies to operate more freely in London and best of good fortune in the debates to come. remove the main mechanism by which regulators currently have the chance to ensure the safety of the public. The largest of these online companies, Airbnb, has over 7.42 pm 23,000 premises in the UK for paying guests—premises which do not comply with government guidelines on Baroness Donaghy (Lab): MyLords,itisalwaysa fire safety. pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Cope of Berkeley. He will not need reminding that it was Other cities in the world are striving to adopt the Moses who created the first 10 regulations. same controls that we are about to throw away. Paris, My mother used to say, “Say something positive New York and Singapore have experienced housing first, dear”, so this is my positive bit. I welcome the inflation and anti-social behaviour in residential proposal in Clause 70 to clarify the role of the Director neighbourhoods. Westminster City Council has dealt of Public Prosecutions under the Gangmasters (Licensing) with 7,362 enforcement cases in the past 15 years, Act 2004. Anything that strengthens the arm of the equating to nearly seven years’ housing supply. In fact, Gangmasters Licensing Authority’s work is to be this proposal is so unpopular, I think it must have been 83 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 84

[BARONESS DONAGHY] down. If three-quarters of the self-employed are to be cooked up at the same dinner party as employee share exempt, as Oliver Letwin says, this must include some ownership and the abolition of 100 year-old health construction and allied workers. and safety legislation on strict liability. The current Health and Safety at Work etc. Act is I turn to the proposal in Clause 1 to exempt the simple and easily understood. Everyone knows where self-employed from health and safety law if they are they stand. Creating a prescribed list will cause confusion not on a prescribed list. The Government claim that and encourage the cowboys. they are following a recommendation by Professor Lofstedt, but that is only partially true. The professor must be rather bruised by his encounters with this 7.50 pm Government. He makes a recommendation that is Lord Clement-Jones (LD): My Lords, having seen circled about with conditions and caution, and it is successive deregulation units created and then relabelled snatched by this Government like a hungry child wanting within government over the past 25 years, I can see a liqueur chocolate—of course, they will be able to that it is clear that, more than previous Governments, have liqueur chocolate fairly soon. Professor Lofstedt the coalition has got to grips with the deregulation indicated that any exemption should be for those, agenda. I therefore welcome many aspects of the Bill “whose work activities pose no potential risk of harm to others”. and in particular the further cuts in red tape in the The Minister for Government Policy, Oliver Letwin, Licensing Act regulation, particularly those relating to said that, community events. “about two thirds of the people in the country who are self-employed There are, however, differing views as to what is will no longer be covered by the Health and Safety at Work etc. sensible deregulation to ease a regulatory burden and Act”.—[Official Report, Commons, 3/2/14; col. 41.] what should be retained to protect the consumer, keep That really gives the game away, doesn’t it? It is a sad a market open or protect an individual right. I hope, day when we mark the 40th anniversary of that Act in therefore, that the Government will prove as flexible as this way. they were in response to pre-legislative scrutiny. There are a number of issues about the content of It is also regrettable that the Institution of Occupational the Bill. As we have heard from many noble Lords, if Safety and Health was dismissed by the Solicitor-General the BBC is to continue to be financed by the licence as an organisation of “consultants”. I know that IOSH fee, it is important that we retain a system that is has written to correct this but it should be remembered successful in maintaining the current low levels of that it has a royal charter and 44,000 members worldwide evasion and of collection costs. At the very least, the and is recognised by the ILO. It is a distinguished and Government should review, under Clauses 59 and 60, knowledgeable organisation and is severely concerned the appropriate penalties for non-payment of the licence by this clause. It deserves to be listened to. fee, which should be considered as part of the total The current draft of prescribed activities, produced review of the BBC charter and licence fee funding. very late in the day, includes construction, which I As we have also heard, Clause 34 involves amendments know a bit about. I am not reassured. I make it clear to Section 25 of the Greater London Council (General that I am not referring to the large construction companies, Powers) Acts 1973 and 1983, which require that London which are seized of the business case for a healthy and residential property owners and tenants seek planning safe building site. It is the refurbishment industry, approval prior to using residential property to sell which is notorious for recruiting underskilled workers accommodation on a night-by-night basis. We have and for accidents. What happens if an employer informs heard also that many of us have seen the brief from his workers, who may be bogus self-employed, that, Westminster City Council. This makes a devastating “This is not a building site so we’re exempt”? They are case against the proposal. We are in the middle of a desperate for work and will take what they are given. major shortage of housing accommodation in London Will the Government make it clear what is and what is at a time of strongly rising population. This would not a building site? Is scaffolding around a house or a lead to an unsustainable loss of permanent residential trench dug in the garden to be covered by the word accommodation. “construction”? Are self- employed plumbers, electricians and carpenters covered in domestic housing? If not, Existing provisions ensure that whole blocks of flats how will the householder be alerted? are not blighted by hotel-type use year round. I hope that the Government listen to the very council that It is estimated that 90% of construction workers in would be most affected. We must keep London as a London are self-employed or bogus self-employed. place to live, not just to visit. As the British Hospitality There is a worrying proportion of cowboys operating Association says, and as we also heard today, cities in London: small operators who know that there is a such as Paris, New York and Singapore have enacted slim chance that they will be inspected by the HSE and measures recently to control the surge in commercial who will exempt themselves from the prescribed list use of residential properties. Have the Government with little or no comeback, so there is an increased risk carried out an impact assessment on these proposals? premium in London for workers and the public. Another area where there seems to have been no I remind the House that we kill 50 construction economic-impact assessment is the provisions of Clause 51 workers a year in accidents at work, let alone serious and Schedule 15. These provisions potentially mean injuries and the scandal of unreported accidents. In not only that the summer holidays could be a great addition, 32 construction workers die every week of deal shorter but also that each of 25,000 schools in lung-related diseases, and that figure is going up, not England could have its own holiday arrangements, 85 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 86 causing confusion for parents, teachers, pupils and As we have head, reform is even more urgent as a industry. This could, not least, have a major impact on result of personal video recorders—PVRs. These enable the UK hospitality and tourism industry, which employs consumers to record programmes and avoid watching 3 million people, many of them in seaside areas. We advertisements. PVRs are revenue-earning and customer- have heard the reference to BALPPA, which represents retention devices, yet none of the value that the pay British leisure parks and attractions. It says, in its TV platforms derive from them reaches those who brief: help to create the content on which they depend. “Shifting term times would be devastating for those that rely Section 73 now simply represents a subsidy from the on seasonal trade which cannot be recouped elsewhere”. PSBs to cable operators. Section 73 is also being relied It points out that, where similar schemes have been on by online service providers, such as TVCatchup, to introduced in the US, the evidence clearly shows that make money from the PSB channels by retransmitting moving school holidays reduces tourism spending, them while selling their own advertising around PSB and that this is not made up elsewhere. content. The Government have said that they must wait for Coming to the omissions rather than commissions, the end of current litigation with TVCatchup, but and with all due deference to the noble Lord, Lord there are no legal reasons that would prevent them Rooker, who is not in his place, I have some ideas for supporting any amendment to the Deregulation Bill. additions to the Bill. We have the issue of busking. Indeed, ongoing litigation is not affected by a change The Mayor of London has rightly been fulsome about of law, as set out in the Interpretation Act 1978. The the place of busking in London life. In the Bill we UK is not alone in reviewing this issue. In the US, should explicitly remove Part 5 of the London Local News Corporation—yes, News Corporation—has led Authorities Act 2000, which provides for busking licensing the charge in favour of fees. I urge the Government to schemes at individual London councils’ discretion. We consider using the Bill to promote growth in the should also remove Section 54(14) of the Metropolitan creative industries by including a clause to repeal Police Act 1839, which was recently used against buskers Section 73. in Leicester Square. Finally, we need an urgent review of noise abatement As I explained to the House, the King’s Parade, the legislation to cater for the situation where a venue with winners of the mayor’s busking competition, were a very good record and no complaints is subject to a interrupted by the police mid-song as they performed complaint or potential complaint from a new occupier in Leicester Square and informed that they were in breach or developer. Venues are closing with great rapidity as of Section 54 of the archaic 1839 Metropolitan Police a result of this inappropriate use of noise legislation. Act. They were bundled into a van by eight officers We need to act fast. I look forward to my noble friend’s and held at Paddington police station for more than reply. six hours. This 174-year-old piece of legislation, which also—I think the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, would be 7.59 pm pleased by this—prohibits kite flying, sleigh riding Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, I will and doorbell ringing, was used to justify the arrest. speak on housing and, like my noble friends, against There are more than adequate powers under separate the folly of Clause 1 and its changes to the Health and legislation to deal with noise nuisance and anti-social Safety at Work Act. Clause 29 reduces the qualifying behaviour. For example, there is the Environmental period for the right to buy from five to three years. We Protection Act 1990 or the Control of Pollution Act 1974. know that this is part of what the Government have There are also powers to make by-laws available to labelled “reinvigorating the right to buy”. It has been local authorities with respect to street nuisance. Camden, accompanied by secondary legislation that increased under the London Local Authorities Act, has banned the maximum percentage discount for houses sold to street music at any time, amplified or unamplified, 70%, and increased the cash cap to £75,000—£100,000 except through a special busking licence. Camden’s in London—which in future is to be uprated by CPI. approach runs completely counter to the arguments We want to see people enabled to purchase a home, heard and accepted by government and Parliament and we support the right to buy. However, housing is during the Live Music Act debates. in crisis in this country, and especially affordable housing. We have also heard that another potential missed Last year the Government built the lowest number of opportunity is the inclusion of provisions to repeal homes for social rent for more than 20 years and since Section 73 of the Copyright, Designs and Patents records began. Section 106 agreements have been watered Act 1988. We have heard eloquent speeches from the down, the capital budget for affordable housing has noble Lords, Lord Dubs, Lord Grade and Lord been cut by 60%, and the affordable rent model is Macdonald on this subject. It is quite clear that Section 73 anything but affordable. If recent reports are true, the of the CDPA is an outdated copyright exception that Government are in panic over the prospect of yet a allows cable operators to retransmit PSB channels further fall in housebuilding as the general election without permission or payment to broadcasters or to looms. The Government’s favourite scapegoat to blame the people who created the content. We have heard is the planning system, but can the Minister confirm why it was introduced. Cable is now a highly effective that some 9,000 sites with full planning permission and well resourced competitor to Sky and Freeview. have not yet started building? Pay TV platforms are able to make money from PSB Therefore we will press the Government on their content while benefiting from a regulatory regime declared replacement policy. The formulation which under which no payment goes back to the public they adopt is that they would use the receipts from service broadcaster or to any content creator. additional—note, not all—right to buy sales to replace 87 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 88

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] As the TUC points out, there is no need to make any every additional home sold. We will wish to probe in change, because anyone who is self- employed but Committee exactly what that means and how it would does not pose a risk to themselves or others cannot be work in practice. It does not appear to cover sales prosecuted. They have no need to do a written risk under the preserved right to buy, which is to the assessment. detriment of the finances of housing associations. The HSE was clear that the best basis for any We can see the merit of rationalising technical exemption should be to allow it only to those who housing standards and their inclusion in the main would not be expected to put others at risk at any point building regulations, albeit with scope to deal with in the normal course of their work and only if they did local circumstances. The Minister will be aware of the not work in certain prescribed industries. Paragraph 18 briefing from Leonard Cheshire which welcomes proposals of the 2013 impact assessment states that, to incorporate lifetime homes standards into building “we explored the possibility of being wholly prescriptive and regulations, but expresses concern that they will potentially making a comprehensive list of the occupations, industries, or combinations thereof that would be covered by the exemption … be optional. We will wish to be reassured that this is However, discussion with sector experts within HSE made it clear not the case. that within occupations and industries there are many exceptions We should be proud of our health and safety system and atypical cases. Relying exclusively on such an approach in the UK. Over 40 years it has helped save countless would therefore risk unintended consequences”. lives and protected many from injury and ill health. What is the huge burden that offending legislation Since this Government came to office there have been imposes on the self-employed, and which holds back three reviews of its scope and operations — that of the the advance of entrepreneurial zeal? The HSE’s original noble Lord, Lord Young of Graffham, of Professor assessment was that the risk assessment would take— Lofstedt, and the triennial review. Each in its way has 15 minutes a year. Annual savings for the new and concluded that the system and the HSE is fit for existing self-employed would be about £500,000 a purpose and doing an effective job. year—in aggregate, that is—but there would be upfront familiarisation costs of nearly £2 million. All of that, We oppose Clause 1 not on ideological grounds, therefore, for the self-employed to save a quarter of an nor because our instinct is to resist any weakening of hour a year and on average less than 50p. The figures health and safety requirements, and nor because we for today’s updated assessment tell the same story. believe that there is still a lingering antipathy to its However, the proposition for exemption now in the cause in some higher reaches of government. We Bill has greater health and safety risks. The HSE made oppose it because whatever minor benefits the clause clear that some of the occupations proposed to be might bring are more than outweighed by the confusion exempt have injury rates statistically higher than the and uncertainty it will engender. average for all occupations. These, it said, include The position at present is very clear. Under Section 3(2) motor mechanics, furniture manufacturers, animal care of the 1974 Act every self-employed person is required occupations, metalworking, and maintenance fitters. to conduct their undertaking to ensure that, That is a deeply flawed and dangerous position for the “so far as is reasonably practicable … he and other persons … are Government to take. not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety”. First, in framing the exemption using a prescribed What could be fairer or more decent than that? Yet the list approach, we know that some who operate in risky Bill will restrict the requirement to those engaged in businesses in a risky way will fall within the exemption. prescribed undertakings expressed by the Minister in Secondly, even if the exemption could be phrased in a another place to be “high-risk”activities. Notwithstanding narrower way, the estimated savings are tiny. The that there is only a draft list of prescribed undertakings prospect of exemption for some will provide another thus far—although an HSE consultation with a list spur to the encouragement for individuals to declare a commenced just today—Oliver Letwin proclaimed in self-employed status—bogus or otherwise. another place that I think about two-thirds of people There is scope for huge confusion about whether who are self-employed will no longer be covered by the someone will be exempt or not, particularly among Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. Why is that the self-employed, who might typically get their something to be proud of? information through informal channels and in circumstances when Ministers are talking up the scale The Government, as my noble friend Lady Donaghy and scope of exemptions. There could be confusion said, point to Professor Lofstedt as the reason for for those who take on an employee for part of a year, doing that, but that was not his recommendation. He or whose activities are partly within a prescribed recommended that an exemption should apply to those undertaking and partly outside. I hope that the self-employed who have no employees and who pose Government will reflect and draw back from Clause 1. no potential risk of harm to others. Even then, he acknowledged: “The actual burden that the regulations currently place upon 8.07 pm these self-employed may not be particularly significant”. Lord Low of Dalston (CB): My Lords, with the That point was reinforced by evidence from IOSH leave of the House, I will flag up a couple of points in to the Public Bill Committee, where Richard Jones the gap which will need further attention as we go made clear: through the Bill. “To our mind, the proposed exempted group … is not overly There is a dearth of accessible housing in the UK. burdened by health and safety at the moment”.—[Official Report, As a result, one in six disabled people and more than Commons, Public Bill Committee, 25/2/14; col. 5.] half of disabled children live in accommodation that 89 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 90 is not suitable for their needs. The need for disabled-friendly difficult for motorists to understand. A Private Member’s housing will only grow as the population ages, and Bill with cross-party support has been presented in the providing good housing can reduce the need for care. other place by Martin Horwood MP.There is considerable The Government’s proposal to incorporate lifetime support for a law of this type, and I very much hope homes and wheelchair-accessible standards into building that the Government will give it serious consideration. regulations is therefore most welcome. However, I am concerned that those standards will be only optional 8.12 pm and concerned at the suggestion that planning authorities Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): My Lords, will be able to adopt them only where they can satisfy this has been an interesting debate, which—a bit like a rigorous needs test and show that they are strictly this Christmas tree of a Bill—has been like a Christmas necessary and justifiable, not just desirable. party, with people calling in to raise concerns, including The GLA has committed to all new buildings matching about inadequate consultation, last-minute clauses and lifetime homes standards and to 10% of all new homes lack of evidence, which leads us to query whether this being built to wheelchair-accessible standards. I would Bill is more about dogma than good governance. Why like to see the approach taken by successive mayors in do the Government speak with a forked tongue—more London rolled out across the UK and I believe that red tape for charities and unions under the lobby Bill, the Bill should be encouraging that. Instead, I am as my noble friend Lord Monks reminded us; more red concerned that it could actively discourage authorities tape for trading standards officers under the consumer from taking that positive approach if they are required Bill; and an attack on localism in this Bill, despite the to jump through too many bureaucratic hoops. I therefore Localism Act passed in the Session before last? None seek the Minister’s assurance that the Government of us likes red tape—unless it is around those presents accept that the level of evidence gathered by the GLA under the Christmas tree—but it is worth remembering is sufficiently rigorous to support the introduction of that regulation is brought in for pretty good reasons, such lifetime homes and wheelchair-accessible standards. I as to safeguard children or the public, or, in the words would also like to see an exemption from the community of the noble Lord, Lord Fowler,to ensure that the interests infrastructure levy for fully wheelchair-accessible housing of the consumer is pre-eminent. Whether we are introducing and a reduction for that which meets the lifetime or abolishing regulation, it is always worth asking who homes standard. it helps and whether it is worth the candle. I turn to my second point. The Bill includes provisions Like the Consumer Rights Bill, which we debated on parking. Clause 38 amends the Road Traffic Act to last week, I like the title of this Bill, as indeed I think prevent local authorities from issuing penalty charge does the noble Lord, Lord Cope. It is the content that notices through the post and using CCTV for parking leaves me a bit queasy, for the reasons that we have enforcement in particular circumstances. I was glad to heard today. As the 35th speaker, there is nothing new see that the Opposition have some reservations about for me to say, but I think that one or two themes have this. The clause was inserted following a government emerged. The first is the absence of evidence for some consultation on local authority parking strategies. The of these changes. The second is the inadequate consultation Government acknowledged that a common theme in that took place, particularly with local authorities over responses to the consultation was the need for a uniform both alcohol and minicab licensing, or with the taxi approach to pavement parking, but this has not been industry over the clauses that put the safety of passengers followed up in the Bill. That is a major omission. at risk. Indeed, there seems to be a lack of consideration Pavement parking is dangerous for pedestrians, especially for consumers, just six days after the Second Reading parents with pushchairs, wheelchair users and other of the Consumer Rights Bill. disabled people, including blind and partially sighted I start with Clause 1. Apart from the points elaborated people, who may be forced out into the road where by my noble friends Lady Andrews, Lady Donaghy, they cannot see oncoming traffic. Pavements are not Lord Monks, Lord Collins, Lord Whitty, Lord McKenzie designed to take the weight of vehicles and they cause and Lord Rooker, as well as the noble Lords, Lord pavements to crack and the tarmac surface to subside. Stoneham and Lord Fowler, I wonder how the Bill This is also a hazard to pedestrians, who may trip on provides for the interests of those, mostly the elderly, broken pavements, and particularly to blind and partially whose hairdresser visits them at home; those who are sighted people, who cannot observe the damage. It is passengers of self-employed drivers; and myriad others also expensive. Local authorities paid more than £1 billion who are protected by the Health and Safety at Work on repairing kerbs, pavements and walkways between etc. Act 1974. That legislation places duties on the 2006 and 2010; £106 million was also paid in compensation self-employed to ensure that they do not expose themselves claims to people tripping and falling on broken pavements or others, including non-employees, to health and during the same five-year period. safety risks. That includes customers, clients, visitors Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, with the and the public. Who asked those people whether they support of at least a dozen other organisations, is wanted to lose such protection? calling for laws across the UK prohibiting pavement Similarly with taxis and minicabs, serious concerns parking unless specifically permitted, such as have been have been raised by my noble friends Lord Monks, in place in Greater London since 1974. Local authorities Lord Whitty, Lord Collins, Lord Davies of Oldham, report that existing measures are insufficient. In a Lady Turner and Lady Thornton, as well as the noble recent YouGov survey, 78% of councillors supported a Baroness, Lady Eaton, and the noble Lords, Lord national law with flexibility for local authorities to Tope and Lord Hussain. Like everyone on the make exemptions. The Transport Select Committee government and opposition Benches—not, I have to described the current system as unduly complex and say, the Bishops’ or the Cross Benches—I have visited 91 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 92

[BARONESS HAYTER OF KENTISH TOWN] insolvency practitioners to undertake corporate Brighton many times for the wonderful delights of bankruptcies, which almost always also affect the status party conferences. We arrive at the station and jump of the individuals involved, with no qualification over into those very familiar Brighton and Hove cabs, and the needs of the latter. In Committee, we will seek to we know that we are going to be safe. We know that ensure that this does not become the case. Regulation they have been tested for safety and that their drivers is usually for the consumers, the community or the have been tested for competence, insurance and vulnerable, as my noble friend Lady Turner said. It trustworthiness. Brighton and Hove, by way of example, used to be the Tories who argued that the City was now worries that ending annual relicensing will diminish overregulated, and look where that led us. its effectiveness as a regulator, while having out-of-area More locally, as a cyclist—albeit not today in lycra cabs on its streets—over which the authority has no cycling from Cambridge and across Westminster Bridge—I control—will pose a risk to customers. As my noble take great comfort from knowing that lorries on our friends have already said, it will be women who will be roads are not overloaded, that their tyre pressures are the most vulnerable to illegal pick-ups by unlicensed checked, that their drivers are qualified, that their drivers in minicabs or even from licensed drivers, who insurance is in place, that their fumes are not excessive will no longer be checked annually. So just who asked and that their brakes work. All of that, of course, is as for this measure, introduced with minimal consultation? a result of regulation. However, that does not seem to It was certainly not women or passengers, nor, as we be enough for this Government. They now want all have heard, the Suzy Lamplugh Trust or crime regulators to include the growth duty, including, I commissioners. presume, the Health and Safety Executive, the Information As for banning CCTV for parking, this comes from the Commissioner, the Gambling Commission, the Charity same Government who brought in the Localism Act Commission, the Electoral Commission, the Health but now decide to dictate to local authorities how they and Care Professions Council, Monitor, the Legal can enforce, or not enforce, parking as they think best, Services Board and Ofsted—soon to be headed, we and despite six of the eight consultation responses gather, by a Tory donor if the papers are to be believed. opposing a CCTV ban. As the noble Lord, Lord Tope, All those will now have the growth duty. It will be said, it is, after all, local government that knows its essential that the economic growth strategy does not area best. In my own borough of Camden, more than trump the principal objective of those regulators, because 85% of CCTV enforcements cover major junctions, that surely is the protection of the public interest. bus stops, pedestrian crossings and no-waiting areas. Will the Government heed the words of the right In a busy urban area these are key to keeping traffic reverend Prelate the Bishop of Truro, my noble friends moving and for safety, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, Lady Andrews and Lady Thornton, the noble Lord, the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, and my noble friends Lord Sharkey, the ICC, the noble Baroness, Lady Lord Davies of Oldham and Lord Whitty said. O’Neill of Bengarve, and indeed the Joint Committee On alcohol licensing, my noble friend Lord Brooke on Human Rights, which said: of Alverthorpe, outlined the worry that the new ancillary “Applying the economic growth duty to the EHRC poses a licences might allow virtually any business, when serving significant risk to the EHRC’s independence”, drink is not its primary purpose, to sell alcohol. Health because it would be compelled take directions from groups fear that this could lead to virtually unlimited the Secretary of State? Has dogma trumped common alcohol premises. Who demanded this? Why were local sense and good governance? Anyway, is this really authorities, health bodies and others not properly consulted? deregulatory, as my noble friend Lady Andrews asked? What research was undertaken on any downside, including There are other issues on which we will await with any impact on the emergency and ancillary services? interest the response of the Government, including Why is there no requirement to make public health a the proposal from my noble friend Lord Macdonald licensing condition? Why is there no minimum price to amend the copyright Act 1988 in relation to legislation? And why piecemeal changes rather than broadcasting. That attracted the support of the noble making this part of a proper strategy,which the Government Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and my noble friend Lord had laid out in 2012 but seem to have abandoned, to Dubs, as well as the noble Lord, Lord Grade. tackle the million crimes linked to alcohol, let alone In the light of comments by the noble Lords, Lord the cost to our health service? Fowler, Lord Grade, Lord Stoneham, Lord Sharkey Turning to insolvency practitioners, here the and Lord Clement-Jones, we also seek reassurance Government, I think, have got it wrong with their from the Minister that no decision on decriminalising suggested regime of partial authorisation for insolvency BBC licence non-payment will be taken prior to the practitioners, as my noble friend Lord Rooker, the review of the royal charter. noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, and the noble and learned We also look forward to the Minister’s response to Lord, Lord Mackay, said. Splitting the regulation of other issues raised by my noble friends Lady Donaghy, this tiny profession into two—for company and for Lady Turner, Lady Andrews, Lord Whitty, Lord Davies, individual insolvencies—would particularly harm small Lord McKenzie and Lord Rooker and the noble Lords, firms, two-thirds of which do both corporate and Lord Stoneham, Lord Grade and Lord Clement-Jones, personal insolvency work, just at the same time as the on a range of issues, such as right to buy, London Government’s small business Bill is meant to be helping short lets, gangmasters, maritime investigations and small businesses. even school holidays. Furthermore, it would require the development, Despite the words of the noble Lord, Lord Sherbourne, delivery and oversight of new, additional systems of there is no demand from consumers for a relaxation of exams and qualifications. It would also allow some the settled position on Sunday trading. Let us leave 93 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Deregulation Bill 94 well alone something that balances family shopping of the internet, for example. If the noble Lord, Lord preferences with workers’ rights, the interests of corner Maxton, were here, he would have linked the shops and the legitimate expectations of churchgoers. transformation of broadcasting with that of the Like the noble Lords, Lord Bew and Lord Brabazon, transformation of the taxi market by things like Uber I welcome paragraph 40 in Part 8 of Schedule 20—and and the transformation of short-term lets by the arrival yes, I did read it. It repeals sections of the Defamation of Airbnb. These are all new phenomena that technology Act 1996, as would have been the case with the Private has pushed on us in what one of the contributors Member’s Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Lester, to remarked as being this fast-changing digital world. which we gave a Second Reading on 27 June, but I note, however, that excessive regulation does sink which now will not be needed in the light of this economies. It was not until the crash of the Greek legislation. economy and finances that we discovered just how I turn finally to knitting yarns. Perhaps I see myself amazingly overregulated the Greek economy was and as une tricoteuse at la Place de la Révolution, or Place how much that held it back. I remember as a student de la Concorde as it is now, watching the guillotine fall the beginnings of the deregulation of the British economy on the supposed red tape. But this is no revolution. It by that nowadays underestimated politician, Edward is a slightly tacky hotchpotch of a Bill, conceived for Heath, in his deregulation of the retail market. The effect and designed by committee. We will bless the growth agenda is important and we always have to bits that do no harm and welcome the few that help, look at it in making sure that old regulations go even but we will seek to amend those that pose risks to as new regulations are sometimes needed. workers, consumers and to the public at large. Underlying some of our discussions there have been suspicions of a hidden agenda: whether or not 8.25 pm the health and safety culture is threatened—I wish to assure noble Lords that it is not; whether the BBC is Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I start by about to be undermined; whether the proposals on declaring an interest of which the noble Lord, Lord marine accidents are really an attempt to get away Stevenson, in his opening speech reminded me. My from marine accident investigations. Again, I can assure wife was a member of the previous Government’s noble Lords that they are not. We will come back to Better Regulation Commission from 2006 to 2008. those issues in detail in Committee. She reminds me that after the change of Prime Minister the previous Labour Government abolished it. A number of other issues have been raised that are not currently within the Bill. The noble Lords, Lord The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, reminded us that Dubs, Lord Clement-Jones, Lord Grade and Lord what the House of Lords does best, and what is indeed Macdonald of Tradeston, referred to the issue of becoming our core role, is to examine the details of retransmission revenues. I listened with interest to legislation placed before us. We can all agree that this some of this. I think I have received nearly a dozen Bill has a wealth of detail. Those who got all the way communications from Virgin Media in Saltaire over through to Schedule 20 understand that fully and thus the past 12 months. Since it put cable through Saltaire we shall have lots to explore at the Committee stage. It it is extremely keen for us all to subscribe and is is evident from today’s debate that there is particular sending me some extremely generously printed brochures concern over Clause 1 and Clauses 10 to 12. Many almost every month. other clauses and parts of schedules have been warmly welcomed. Some have been queried, with much more I take the point that public service broadcasters information requested, and there will indeed be much should not be subsidising commercial enterprises. We to explore in Committee which will start when we are of course willing to talk to others about how and return in October. I note what is being said about within what framework we address Section 73 of the generous time being needed for that stage. Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, although the Government may be reluctant to concede that that fits Between now and then the Government, as always, appropriately within this Bill. are open to consult off the Floor, with all those who wish to do so, including the Local Government I noted in Schedule 20 that anyone who keeps a Association, although not within this Bill taking on pigsty is part of what we are now repealing. I am just the whole universe of local licensing, which the noble old enough as a small boy to have visited farms where Baroness, Lady Eaton, perhaps suggested. The noble they still had pigsties and indeed once visited a farm Lord, Lord Sharkey, requested hyperlinks to previous where they were in the action of killing a pig. That is legislation. In informal consultations the other day, part of the thing that no longer takes place and the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, asked for a Keeling therefore we no longer need it. schedule for the entire Bill. We have noted both of We also touched on busking and Sunday trading. I those requests and will see what we can do. The noble share the feeling of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, Lord, Lord Tope, talked about the distinction between that it is probably quite a good thing that we are not better regulation, smart regulation and fit regulation. tackling Sunday trading as well as everything else on As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and others said, there this occasion. Perhaps the next Government will wish is a difference between deregulation and re-regulation. to reopen that immediately. One of the things we have learnt over the past few The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, asked where the years is that there is a constant need for adjustment figures for savings from the Bill came from. Officials and adaptation in regulation. We need to look constantly have prepared a summary table of the Bill and I am at what is no longer necessary, even as we look at what very happy to share this with the noble Lord, Lord is now needed. We need a great deal more regulation Stevenson, following the debate and to put it in the 95 Deregulation Bill[LORDS] Deregulation Bill 96

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] used at a local level, on which all of us have slightly Library for all noble Lords. It is part of the Red Tape different and ambivalent views. Again, we will come Challenge. Many of these are estimates but we are back to that in detail in Committee. fairly confident that they are not too imprecise. On short-term lets, as someone who had never Clause 1, the health and safety clause, has clearly really thought about this problem previously, I listened set a number of concerns running. The prescribed list with interest. I live close to Wimbledon where, every of high-hazard activities is now being consulted on. year, a number of well-off local people seem to let out The consultation went out today and is available online. their houses for two weeks at a time for remarkably It will run for 12 weeks which means that it will be large sums. I have to admit that the Wallaces had completed by the Committee stage and the regulators considered whether we should go away for two weeks. will thus be able to issue at least some guidance My wife, however, said no, because she actually likes towards that by the time we are in Committee. The going to Wimbledon herself rather than sitting and new regulations will use definitions of health and watching it on TV. There are some important issues safety already present in law, which means that we are about, first, what is now happening; secondly, why the not changing the context of health and safety. In regulations in London are different from those in the answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, I am rest of the country; thirdly, how far the evolution of informed that Professor Löfstedt wrote to the Commons short-term letting through the internet is beginning to committee in support of the clause as drafted. We will change the situation anyway; and fourthly, therefore, both investigate further to see who is quoting Professor how we respond to that. Löfstedt more directly. On the right to buy, we recognise worries about On the question on whether the number of self- whether there is an underlying agenda and how this employed workers is growing because of the expansion will affect the future provision of social housing. A of bogus self-employed contracts, the Government are problem we all face with social housing is that the taking parallel action in other forums to stop the use previous Government did not build enough social of such bogus contracts. For example, in this year’s housing and this Government have so far, disappointingly, Finance Bill, the Government introduced changes to not been able to build as much social housing as we the agency tax rules to put a stop to the growing use of would like. Part of what is required under the Bill is those requirements. This is not intended to allow any that councils which sell houses use the money to build expansion in that area. We are looking at professional new social housing as part of the deal. people who work at home and do not employ others. On optional building regulations, Clause 32 will That is the category from which we hope to lift unnecessary not amend standards related to safety. It will allow for regulations. certain requirements to be adapted locally, but will The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and other noble provide for the range of what standards are permissible Lords raised the question of tribunals. There is no to be set nationally. I am happy to discuss this further evidence to suggest that the wider recommendations with the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and others as prevent reoffence. That is why the Government decided part of the consultation between now and Committee to remove this burden. In one very clear recent case stage. involving the Metropolitan Police and a diplomatic protection officer, the tribunal made no wider Lord Rooker: The Minister referred to 12 weeks recommendations but the Metropolitan Police has earlier. We are going to have at least 12 weeks between made it clear that it recognises that there are wider Second Reading and the start of Committee stage. concerns. I do not think this is such a difficult issue. That is very unusual. I can see at least 800 or 900 There is some evidence, which was presented to the amendments. If events take their course, they will not Government in the consultation, that this involved be tabled until 10 October. Would it not be a good idea additional cost for smaller employers and did not for the staff of the House, and the Minister’s own staff produce great benefit for others. who are providing those responses, if we were able to A lot was said about taxis and private hire vehicles table amendments from, say, 1 September rather than and I am sure that we will have an impassioned debate have to put them all in on the day we come back, on this issue in Committee. We are conscious that which would not be conducive to having a decent there is a range of concerns including, as a number of debate on the Bill? It is a bit unusual, but we are in noble Lords have said, questions of safety. The question unusual times. We can do it if we decide to do so. of the use of private hire vehicles by others when they Perhaps the Minister could take some advice and are off-duty clearly needs to be examined. However, come back on that. we have looked at the Law Commission recommendations and are satisfied that taking these measures forward Lord Wallace of Saltaire: That is a very constructive neither undermines the Law Commission review nor suggestion. I will take it away and we will discuss it. necessarily means that we will not take the Law On short-term lets in London, I am told that the Commission proposals into account at a later stage question was included in the consultation issued in when it produces its Bill. February last year on a review of the property conditions Parking has also raised a lot of issues for many of the private rented sector. Nearly 100 responses were noble Lords, with the question of CCTV and parking received and the Government will publish their response fines. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, shortly. that we have not considered the risks of removing the One of the happy surprises I have in facing this Bill use of CCTV as we are not talking about doing that. is that my initial feeling that the rights of way clauses There were a number of questions about how CCTV is of the Bill would be the most difficult turns out not to 97 Deregulation Bill[7 JULY 2014] Health: Polypill 98 be the case. The Ramblers, the Country Land and Before I close, I will talk about the question of the Business Association and others have written to me to growth duty and in particular the EHRC, because I say that they are united in asking for no further know there is a lot of concern about that. We are amendments to this part. I hope that we can all hold considering the question of how far the growth duty to that. It is remarkably unusual to find a situation in extends to non-economic regulators. Again, that is which all those involved in a deeply contentious area, something that we will discuss further. We look forward which has been contentious for a very long time, have to a lively and lengthy Committee stage. I congratulate come to an agreement and are asking us to put it into all those who have read the entire Bill all the way law. Let us see how far we can get on that following through to the end of Schedule 20. I beg to move. their consensus. Bill read a second time. The noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, and others asked about the TV licensing review. As a matter of course, I can tell him that the terms of reference will be laid in the Libraries of both Houses and the review itself Health: Polypill must begin within three months of the Bill receiving Question for Short Debate Royal Assent. 8.44 pm Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: That was not the main purpose of most of the comments, which was to Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath allow for a discussion of the terms of reference of that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action review on the Floor of the Chamber. Simply to place they will take to encourage the use of the polypill them in the Libraries is not sufficient. Will the noble by the National Health Service. Lord reconsider that? Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I am told that the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, I am Government are currently committed to putting the very grateful for this opportunity to put some probing terms of reference to both Houses at a later stage. I questions to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and perhaps think that the noble Lord is asking for an early ask for his help with something that I am rather consultation. Again, let us talk off the Floor and see puzzled about. I detect a less than enthusiastic response how far we get on that. My noble friend Lord Gardiner from the medical and health establishment to the speaks for the DCMS and it may therefore be particularly development and potential of what is being called the appropriate that he would speak on that. polypill. Perhaps the noble Earl will share the reasons The noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe, was for it and helpfully suggest a way forward for some particularly concerned about the potential growth of more constructive engagement on the issue, if that is alcohol consumption. I hope that in Committee we at all possible. will be able to reassure him about what is proposed in As we know, strokes and heart disease remain a these measures, which I recall have been discussed in major public health problem. Across the population terms of local arrangements allowing local communities as a whole, the chance of having a heart attack or to have events with fewer hoops to jump through in cerebrovascular accident rises as people get older, and what I am told are community and ancillary sellers age is the single most important predictor of future notices. The intention is strongly that this will be cardiovascular disease. But we know now—there is limited to a small part of any business that is allowed robust evidence—that the consumption of fixed-dose to do so. We do not see hairdressers offering gin and polypills containing effective combinations of low-cost tonics to those who come to have their hair cut, which off-patent statins and blood pressure medicines can I think was almost what the noble Lord was suggesting, safely cut the rate of unwanted vascular events by and other matters of that sort. Again, we will explore 70% or more in otherwise untreated subjects, whatever that further in Committee. the initial combined level of their blood cholesterol The noble Lord, Lord Rooker, had concerns about and other disease risk factors. The use of such a the repeal of the duty of the Senior President of preventive technology across the general population, Tribunals to report. I am told that, since the duty to with access determined by age alone, would prevent report was introduced in 2007, other and more effective the need for much more costly and inefficient risk-testing, feedback mechanisms have been introduced—the and maximise the health gains. Clearly, it is aimed at production of a report by the Senior President of people in their 50s and 60s who would not at the Tribunals no longer represents the most effective way moment meet any treatment threshold. of providing feedback. What the tribunals now do is The use of the polypill focuses on primary prevention, to introduce summary reasons in employment support whereas the majority of current medical activity is allowance appeals, starting initially on four sites. These focused on secondary prevention. Of course, if a first summary reports have been found to be more useful heart attack or stroke is prevented, there is no second than what was done before. Again, I am happy to talk one to prevent. My understanding is that if people further if that helps. take this daily from the age of 50, one in three people I have taken a lot of time and I have not talked would benefit and would gain an extra eight years of about the closure of small prisons or the whole relationship life without heart attack or stroke—similar to the between the Law Commission and this Bill. It is benefit achieved by stopping smoking in middle age. perhaps time for a short debate on the future role of I suppose that the polypill can be thought of as a the Law Commission as there is quite a lot of interest form of drug-based vaccination that reduces vascular in that. disease rates. However, unlike the situation with vaccines, 99 Health: Polypill[LORDS] Health: Polypill 100

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] the combined efforts of the medical, health and there is no threshold level of use needed to ensure herd pharmaceutical establishments seem to want to look immunity—the higher proportion of healthy people the other way. Why? taking the polypill, the greater the benefits—but no one needs to be encouraged against their personal 8.52 pm judgment to take it if they do not wish to do so. Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, the name polypills An article in the BMJ in April, which contained is slightly unfortunate. When I heard about this, I research news, said: immediately drew parallels with polyclinics, keeping it “Inconsistencies in the design of studies investigating the in the health arena, at least; but one of my adult potential of polypills to prevent cardiovascular disease make children wondered whether this was veterinary medication the impact of these pills difficult to prove, a systematic review by for our avian friends. The principle, as the noble Lord, the Cochrane Collaboration has found. However, the reviewers Lord Hunt, has outlined—I thank him very much for are confident that polypills do have a role in protecting large populations against cardiovascular disease”. securing this debate—is that the polypill combines four medicines into one; three to lower blood pressure One would have thought that there would then be a and one to lower cholesterol. Personally, I prefer the great rush of enthusiasm by the NHS and indeed the name that they have used in Australia and New Zealand, medical and health sector generally to use the polypill. SPACE: single pill to avert cardiovascular events. It But as far as I can see, we have had mostly silence and seems a neater acronym and explains much more in some cases downright hostility. There has clearly simply what it does. been difficulty making a polypill with a licence for the primary presentation of cardiovascular disease, and I thank the Library for its very helpful research pharmaceutical companies see little commercial advantage pack, not least because it references the proposal that because the components of the polypill are all generic. all over-50s should take it. This is some of the research I understand that they are also put off by the uncertainty referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. Some even and cost of obtaining regulatory approval. suggest that those over 35 who have an at-risk profile might consider taking it every day. Indeed, Dr David I wonder whether we are seeing here a parallel to Wald at Queen Mary University of London, after his the statin debate, which, as a lay person, I have found trial, says that 28% of people will benefit by avoiding utterly confusing. I pick up the sense among some or delaying heart attacks. However the QMUL studies sections of the medical profession, particularly the trial was only 84 patients; perhaps I should say “people”, public health profession—and I stand here as president since it was targeting people who were not yet unwell. of the Royal Society for Public Health—that pills are Those results show that the blood pressure of around not really virtuous. It feels as though there is a puritanical 12% of participants was reduced and 39% had reduction approach which suggests that healthy living is the only in cholesterol. All this is good, but to have a drug appropriate policy to adopt in the prevention of stroke compulsory—because that is how it would be seen, and heart disease. I also suspect that doctors fear the even if it were voluntary—for anyone over 50 seems to workload implication of this kind of medication when me a fairly low benefit ratio. it comes out. Perhaps they also fear losing control. In The papers also describe a cost of “only 50p per a sense, the use of polypills could be seen as the public day”. This sounds relatively cheap, but it is £15 per very much taking ownership of their own health. month or £180 per year. Even more than that, Dr Wald There is no evidence that the use of polypills would suggests that it could be sold over the counter and not lead to increased vascular disease risk-taking. I understand as a prescription-only medicine. I do not know what that the available studies imply that health-promoting the current rate is, but the per-patient allocation for behaviours tend to be positively correlated with one medication in the NHS is not large, and anything over another, as might be the case with health-damaging £100 starts to raise eyebrows. The pill would therefore behaviours. As with vaccines, the introduction of a be a substantial burden on the pharmaceutical bill, general polypill prevention programme within the NHS especially if it was to be used for the entire population would probably require a positive, proactive approach, over 50 rather than for those who need it. possibly in the form of some government/private Even if we accept that there is a good reason to give partnership. four tablets in one for healthy people, other considerations I was interested in the Government’s approach to still need to be aired. The first is side-effects. The noble antibiotics last week. Clearly, the current mechanisms—the Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to statins —I suspect that factors that lead pharmaceutical companies to make we all know somebody who is on them—the side-effects major investments—were simply not going to produce of which can range from memory loss, muscle problems, the goods and the Government felt that they had to polyneuropathy, acidosis, anaemia, cataracts, immune step in. Will the Minister consider whether his department depression and pancreatic and liver disease. Even if might at least play a somewhat more active role in this you are lucky enough not to have a response to a single debate than it has done hitherto? Would he, at the very one of those drugs, mixtures of drugs may well have least, be prepared either to convene a study or an combination side-effects. I know from my own area of objective, independent review of the potential of the rheumatology that some people react badly when a polypill? Would he, at the very least, be prepared to mixture of drugs is taken, and they are instructed to meet me and colleagues to discuss whether there is a take certain drugs in the morning and others in the way to take this forward? evening to avoid such contraindications. I am puzzled that, on the face of it, the polypill I am slightly unhappy about the reference made by could lead to a major reduction in the number of heart the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, to the polypill being attacks and strokes that occur in this country, yet parallel to vaccination. I would much rather that 101 Health: Polypill[7 JULY 2014] Health: Polypill 102 people who were thought to be at risk, which could forgive me. Heart attacks and strokes remain among well be anyone over 50, went down the public health the biggest killers, despite the improvements in mortality route and were asked to consider lifestyle changes, rates in recent years. We know many of the risk including stopping smoking, looking at their diet, factors—smoking, alcohol, obesity, salt and lack of having their cholesterol tested regularly and, most exercise—and we must not be distracted, as the noble importantly, undertaking some activity.A lot of publicity Baroness, Lady Brinton, says, from dealing with these was given two or three weeks ago to evidence showing public health issues. They are not mutually exclusive, that, for the population over 50, you do not have of course. suddenly to become a Tour de France cyclist or a marathon runner and that steady walking that raises We know that we should do more to detect and your exertion level a bit every day will do the trick. treat high blood pressure and raised blood cholesterol I therefore wonder whether this “wonder drug” is levels, but there is one important risk factor that we not trying to solve too much in one easy go, but I am can do little about. That is age. There is a straight-line not alone. In an article that appeared in the Daily relationship between age and the incidence of heart Telegraph on 19 July 2012, Dr Margaret McCartney, a attacks and stroke. The older you are, the higher the Glasgow GP, was reported as saying that more evidence risk. The most striking thing about this is that about was needed before a mass programme was embarked half of those getting one of these killers do not have on and: one or other of the conventional risk factors—they have normal cholesterol and normal blood pressure. “The history of medicine is rich with ideas that sounded great They come as a surprise in people thought to be fit, but either didn’t prove effective—or worse, did harm”. and it is in these unsuspected and unsuspecting individuals Natasha Stewart, a senior cardiac nurse at the British where the polypill may play a role. Heart Foundation, was reported as saying: “Research into polypills is encouraging, but there are still The rationale for the polypill relies on a number of many questions to answer before this ‘wonder drug’ is prescribed basic principles and here I rely specifically on Sir Nick … However interesting this potential new pill is, medicines are Wald’s briefing, so what I say, as I pointed out, may not a substitute for living a healthy lifestyle”. not be entirely novel. First, we know that using drugs The polypill sounds very enticing, but I am concerned to lower a raised serum LDL cholesterol reduces the about it for three reasons. First, it is already being rate of heart attacks, and lowering the raised blood described as a wonder drug long before extensive pressure reduces the incidence of strokes, but the research and careful monitoring of side-effects, including intriguing observation is that the same drugs reduce those caused by combining four into one, have been even normal levels of cholesterol or blood pressure to done. As I said earlier, many people are already under a similar proportion as in those with raised values. strict instructions not to mix certain drugs because they interact. Secondly, the cost at 50 pence a day is Furthermore—and here is the nub of the argument— not insignificant. To prescribe the pill for a large lowering even normal levels reduces the risk of heart number of people who will not need it in the longer attacks and stroke. For example, Nick Wald calculates run seems futile. Like Public Health England, I would that a fall in blood pressure of 10 millimetres of much rather see proper medical assessment MoTs mercury reduces the risk of stroke by about 60% and being given at 35 and 50, so that people becoming reducing serum LDL by 1 millimole per litre lowers more at risk can be given lifestyle change advice, have the risk of coronary artery disease by 40%. The fact is regular tests on cholesterol and other things that will that there does not appear to be a lower limit below indicate whether they are at risk, and can consider which reducing blood pressure or cholesterol is not whether their level of activity is appropriate. My final effective in reducing risk. concern is that, if the polypill is made available across the counter and not on prescription, some—perhaps The second principle is that you can achieve as many—may think that the pill alone will protect them good or better effect in reducing blood pressure from a without their looking at their own lifestyle issues. combination of two or more hypotensive drugs given Having been pretty depressing about all this, I want in half or lower doses than a single drug given in a to end on a positive note. If further research at a normal dose, and in this way markedly reduce the statistically significant level can demonstrate the benefit incidence of side effects. You get the same impact on of the pill, and if the Medicine and Healthcare products blood pressure with many fewer side effects from a Regulatory Agency is satisfied with its efficacy, quality combination of half doses. and safety, then, yes, I would welcome it, but there is Therefore, combining these pieces of evidence—risk too little for us to go out and be utterly positive about increasing with age, lowering risk factors even when at the moment. they are seemingly in the normal range, and combining low doses of drugs to reduce side effects—leads to a conclusion that points to a need to give polypills as a preventive measure to those at risk, namely all the 8.59 pm population over the age of 55, say, regardless of their Lord Turnberg (Lab): My Lords, I too am grateful conventional risk profile. Indeed, if they have other to my noble friend Lord Hunt for introducing this more obvious risk factors they are likely to be treated debate. It is pretty obvious that he, like me, has been for them by one means or another already. It is the briefed by Sir Nick Wald—and I suspect that the unsuspecting population where a polypill is most likely noble Earl may have heard a little from him too—so if to be effective. In these, it lowers cholesterol and blood what I say sounds a little familiar, I hope he will pressure as well as risk. 103 Health: Polypill[LORDS] Health: Polypill 104

[LORD TURNBERG] that goes out of the window and you are left with all Nick Wald has suggested that one in three individuals the elements at the dosages that have been agreed. Is taking a polypill containing small doses of simvastatin, that not an argument for retaining the current position losartan, amlodipine and hydrochlorothiazide would of giving separate dosages rather than combining live an extra eight years than they would have done them all? without the pill. It could reasonably be concluded that we should be giving everyone over 55 a polypill of this Lord Turnberg: Those are very good points. The type, and it would help those harbouring unsuspected doses used in polypills are very low, in fact—20 milligrams coronary artery disease or strokes. If this were a of simvastatin, when the normal dose is 40 to preventive programme like vaccination, as my noble 80 milligrams. The other drugs in the polypill are half friend suggested, we probably would not hesitate, but doses. The point is that, if you have raised LDL of course it is not a one-off, single shot like a vaccine. cholesterol or raised blood pressure, you should certainly It is to be taken life long, every day, as a prophylactic be on the treatments; they have been shown to be treatment, more like the contraceptive pill to prevent effective. It is people who do not have raised cholesterol pregnancy, although of course for rather longer. or raised blood pressure who we are aiming to treat—or So many issues would have to be overcome, and a to prevent their diseases—so it is a different situation. number of critics of the mass medication that such a The point about safety is important. It is clear that we programme would entail have to be answered. There is need and should have proper clinical trials of those the question of regulation. Although all the constituents doses, but the impact of such doses, from what we of the pill have been through all the regulators and are know about them in this combination, is that they are in fact well out of patent, the MHRA and MEA may likely to be safe in the vast majority of cases. What we well need convincing that the combinations do not need do not know is the number who will get side-effects. further appraisal and approval. There is the question of side-effects. Although doses are low,there are undoubted side-effects with all the constituents of the pill, even in Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My noble friend, the low doses used here. They may well become significant and other noble Lords, mentioned the importance of when trying to reach whole populations. clinical trials, which I am sure is absolutely right. Is not the problem here that in fact no pharmaceutical Some say that we are already an overmedicalised company will conduct a clinical trial because all the society and we do not need yet more pills for everyone. drugs used in combination in the polypill are off-patent, I am not sure that that is a terribly good argument, so there can be no protection of that research by any because we rely quite heavily for our longevity on company taking it forward? So there is, if you like, a many of the medicines we take. I am one of the few, it block here, although people can see the potential seems, who is on simvastatin without side-effects, out benefits. Rightly, noble Lords are asking for clinical of a huge population who are similar to me. In any research, but there is no possibility of that happening case, no one is forced to take drugs if they do not want unless the Government take a hand themselves, which to. Nevertheless, those are views that we cannot easily is why the debate on antibiotics is interesting. They are dismiss and to be taken seriously. completely separate subjects, but the Government had We come to the question of whether the polypill to step in there because, at the moment, the market should be available for prescription on the NHS or simply cannot respond to the issue. simply over the counter at pharmacists. It is probably very cheap, and the economic value of preventing those diseases is a strong argument for prescription. It Lord Turnberg: I agree entirely. I think that it will would at least allow us to get a clear angle on the be difficult for the drug firms themselves to conduct number and incidence of side-effects, which free availability trials because these are generics and they are manufactured would not. It would allow doctors the opportunity to by a number of companies. The only way forward, I assess their patients for other preventable risk factors suspect, if we are to have a clinical trial, is through at the same time, which we have to do something NHS funding—that sort of trial. My final remark is about. On the other hand, an approach in which that I very much look forward to the noble Earl’s people simply decide whether to buy the pill over the response. counter is certainly more libertarian, but would probably not make a great impact on the epidemiology of those 9.10 pm diseases, nor on the health of the nation. Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB): My Lords, perhaps There are certainly interesting debates to be had, I might say a few words since we have a little time in and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, hand. I am very interested in the points raised by the for starting us off on this topic. noble Lord, Lord Hunt, because preventing cardiac disease is something that we should be considering for the future. Indeed, I think we are all agreed on that. Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD): I am grateful to However, I can see many of the problems. I very much the noble Lord for giving way. One issue raised earlier agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that we was about the dosage and combining those dosages in have to be careful that people, especially young people, relation to particular side-effects. It was only 12 months do not think that this is a sort of panacea—especially ago, I think, that NICE advised against giving particular with obesity and the danger of diabetes, for example—and doses of simvastatin together with a modifier. When that by taking this magic pill we will somehow put off doses are given separately, you can take the evidence the moment. That would be dangerous. However, I and change them. When they are combined in a polypill, can see that with more research—this is where I agree 105 Health: Polypill[7 JULY 2014] Health: Polypill 106 absolutely with the noble Baroness—this is something public health research community, particularly for the that we should keep an eye on. I am very grateful for prevention of non-communicable diseases such as the debate, which I found extremely interesting. cardiovascular disease. Essentially, the polypill is a combination of multiple 9.12 pm medicines which aims to prevent or reduce the risk of Lord Willis of Knaresborough: My Lords, perhaps cardiovascular disease: that is, strokes and heart attacks. in the time we have I might make a very short intervention Each of the constituent medicines is either at the because I agree with my noble friend in her analysis. I current recommended dose or at lower doses. The feel that there is a real issue not simply with the premise is that these combinations should be used in polypill but with the research, which needs to take preference to using the same medicines separately. In place where there are combinations of drugs being practice, the polypill can refer to either the fixed-dose given anyhow. You can give a combination of drugs combination medicine to reduce cardiovascular risk, without having serious clinical research and that is patented as the polypill, or any other fixed-dose okay, but if you combine them into a single dose, you combination medicine, such as the red heart pill. However, need a complete clinical trial. That issue has to be any discussion of polypills is complicated by the huge addressed. range of drugs which might be included in any combination. 9.13 pm Polypill active ingredients are licensed separately as The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department medicines and well established in their own right; their of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Lords, I thank the use together in fixed combination is what is novel. Just noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for giving us the opportunity like any other medicine, any application for a marketing to debate a particularly interesting subject and for authorisation for a polypill needs to be supported by having elicited a number of very well informed speeches. data demonstrating that its quality, safety and efficacy In calling for this debate, he has done the House a are satisfactory and that the risk-to-benefit profile is considerable service by enabling noble Lords, including favourable for the proposed treatment before such an myself, to bring ourselves up to date on what progress authorisation or licence can be granted. has been made in the development of the polypill My noble friend Lady Brinton drew attention to concept. As has been said, heart attacks and strokes the side-effects of polypills and statins. She was are major health issues in the western world and a absolutely right to do so. My information is that the growing issue in the developing world. Reducing mortality evidence is not yet there on the side-effects of the for people with cardiovascular disease and improving polypill. Patient safety must of course be paramount their outcomes is a key priority for the Government. in that context. We have made it clear, through the NHS and public health outcome frameworks and the Government’s No polypills are currently licensed for use in the mandate to NHS England, that we want to see action UK for the prevention of heart attack or stroke. I taken across the health system to reduce avoidable understand that the Medicines and Healthcare products premature mortality from cardiovascular disease. Regulatory Agency has provided scientific advice to a number of sponsors and companies for combination The 2013 call to action on premature mortality set products of this type. However, no application has yet out the Government’s ambition for England to be been made to the licensing authorities. In the event among the best in Europe in tackling the leading that a marketing authorisation proposal is submitted, causes of early death, including cardiovascular disease. the data supporting any claims for benefit in the stated In April this year, we published Living Well for Longer, patient population, together with any evidence of adverse which brings together what the health and care system events, will be carefully reviewed. Only if the overall will do to meet this challenge. balance of benefits versus risks is favourable will a There has been a great deal of interest in the marketing authorisation be granted. polypill and its potential for reducing the risk of heart disease over the years. It may surprise some noble Without a marketing authorisation, as the noble Lords that the concept was first introduced into the Lord will know, doctors can prescribe an unlicensed scientific and public domain as far back as 2003. It medicine under their own professional responsibility. was proposed in an article in the British Medical That addresses one question raised by the noble Lord, Journal by two people whose names have been mentioned Lord Turnberg, as to whether it is in theory available already, Professors Nicholas Wald and Malcolm Law on the NHS. The answer would be yes, in those of the Wolfson Institute of Preventive Medicine. Using circumstances, but any national action to promote the mathematical modelling, they estimated that a polypill use of a drug that is not licensed is out of the question, comprising a statin, aspirin, a combination of three as I am sure he is aware. I understand that there are blood pressure lowering drugs and folic acid, could several clinical trials of polypill products in progress reduce heart disease events by 88% and stroke by 80%. in various countries and it will be interesting to see the Their article concluded that their proposed polypill results. could, The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, questioned whether it “largely prevent heart attacks and stroke if taken by everyone was the fear of additional workload that was deterring aged 55 and older and everyone with existing cardiovascular doctors in the context of the polypill. My information disease.” is that the evidence on that front is as yet unavailable Although the effectiveness of the combined drug and one way or the other, as regards the primary prevention any possible side-effects had yet to be evidenced though setting, but that clinical studies are now under way. patient trials, this captured the imagination of the Indeed, I have in front of me the details of three 107 Health: Polypill[LORDS] Health: Polypill 108

[EARL HOWE] and are not overweight. It is with this group of individuals, polypill phase 3 clinical trials which had either completed who are not suspected of having the liability to develop or were close to completion as of May 2014. I can let a heart attack or stroke, where it seems to have its the noble Lord have details of those trials if he would place. likemetodoso. The noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, raised the possibility that the polypill could be prescribed to those people Earl Howe: Again, that is the primary prevention who do not fall into the risk group. That is, of course, group, and the point that I was seeking to convey the primary prevention group. I am advised, though, earlier was that we would need evidence that the that as age advances, the risk of side effects also benefit-to-risk ratio was sufficiently positive before increases proportionally. I suggest that before embarking proceeding down that course. That is not to say that it on a course of this nature, we would need evidence is not, but there is work to be done to prove it. that the polypill influences benefit more than risk. We In March 2013 the Cardiovascular Disease Outcomes therefore come back to the issue of clinical trials in Strategy was published. This set out possible actions order to demonstrate that. within the current legislative framework, systems Having said that, to answer another of the noble architecture and financial settlement to deliver improved Lord’s questions, I accept that the polypill could be outcomes for people with CVD. It set out a framework more convenient for some patients and could help for 10 actions that would make a real difference in them to adhere to their medicines. Whether it would improving outcomes for patients and their families. prove cost-effective is something that NICE might in While I could expatiate on that subject, I am told that due course consider. my time is drawing to a close, so suffice it to say that I I know that not everyone is convinced by the polypill. hope that noble Lords have found today’s debate as There are, for instance, concerns about the medicalisation interesting as I have. of otherwise healthy people. Even by its proponents it The polypill is certainly an interesting concept. It is seen as secondary to other forms of prevention. may be that this type of approach would be more Professor Wald himself is quoted as saying: suitable in developing countries, where the real epidemics “This is not the solution for primary prevention … Primary of cardiovascular disease are building up and where prevention requires education of the public. As a priority this is clinical trials are taking place, rather than in a more much more important than any polypill”. sophisticated healthcare system such as ours, where There is a range of population-based interventions prevention and tailored therapy are more the norm. that could be put in place to reduce the risk of Time will tell. cardiovascular disease. Each has its pros and cons and On the issue of market failure, which was introduced may be suitable for some patients and in different by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, I am not convinced circumstances. We know that many premature deaths that the same arguments apply to the polypill as apply and illnesses could be avoided by improving lifestyles. to antimicrobials. For one thing, there are a number of The Government’s public health programme includes clinical trials of polypills in progress, as I mentioned, national ambitions to reduce smoking, obesity, physical and the MHRA has provided scientific advice to a inactivity and the harmful use of alcohol—all with number of companies, so clearly there is commercial appropriate metrics included in the public health outcomes interest out there. We do, however, welcome any framework. technologies that contribute to providing the best treatment In addition, through the NHS Health Check for people with cardiovascular disease. programme people between the ages of 40 and 74 are In answer to the main question of the noble Lord, offered a range of tests that include measuring their Lord Hunt, of whether the Government will consider cholesterol and blood pressure levels. The check has playing a more active role in this debate, I would been designed primarily to help healthcare professionals certainly be interested in looking at the noble Lord’s identify cardiovascular risk in the adult population proposals in more detail and would be happy to discuss earlier so that steps can be taken to reduce it, but it is the matter with him at a suitable moment. With that, I worth emphasising that it is also targeted at a range of thank him once again for introducing this extremely other conditions. interesting topic for our consideration. All 152 local authorities are now offering the NHS Health Check programme, which is a significant milestone in the programme’s evolution. In 2013-14 a total of House adjourned at 9.26 pm. 2.8 million people—almost 20% of the eligible population—were offered an NHS health check, and just over 1.4 million of them received one, giving a take-up rate of 50%. This is the greatest number of CORRECTION NHS health checks offered and accepted in one year since the programme began. As a result of an error in our production process, Lord Turnberg: That is all extremely credible. However, the speeches of Lord Curry of Kirkharle and the Earl the polypill is aimed at those who have passed the of Caithness were omitted from the report of the health check with flying colours—that is, they have debate on 3 July 2014 on the rural economy.The following normal cholesterol and blood pressure, do not smoke contributions should have appeared at col. 1851: Rural Economy[7 JULY 2014] Rural Economy

3.10 pm the rural economy. I continue to hear lots of comment Lord Curry of Kirkharle (CB): My Lords, I very about: the relative value of energy generation and how much welcome the opportunity to debate this important that could dwarf the value of agricultural output; the issue. I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord importance of tourism and how that could put farming Shrewsbury, for stimulating this debate. I need also to into the shade; and that diversification away from declare a number of interests. I farm in Northumberland; agriculture and other business activities contributes I am a trustee of Clinton Devon Estates in Devon; I far more to the rural economy than agriculture does. am chair of the Waitrose farm on Leckford Estate; All these things could be true; we definitely need a and I am a member of the NFU and the CLA, along diverse rural economy. As the noble Earl, Lord with other various interests. Shrewsbury, said at the beginning, the more diverse the better. We need to create employment and wealth I will not try to duplicate the comments already to sustain rural communities and maintain rural services. made by noble Lords, which I fully endorse. I particularly We need affordable rural housing, as has been mentioned endorse the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord already. We urgently need high-speed broadband in Plumb, on the importance of education and the role of every hamlet. FACE—Farming & Countryside Education—and how important it is to ensure that young people have a I want to give an example of what is possible. In the good understanding of farming, food and the countryside. farm from which I took my title, Kirkharle, which is where we started farming in 1971, I employed two I want to comment on three specific issues regarding young men. Latterly it was farmed by contract and no the rural economy. First, it is difficult to define. The one was employed directly. Through the development rural economy does not have a ring-fenced border: it of rural business help and a retail visitor centre, 13 merges into urban and city economies. For rural businesses businesses are now established on that holding, employing and enterprises to succeed there needs to be a recognition about 30 people; so it can be done. The legislative that rural, urban and city are interdependent. Too framework within which rural businesses operate is often in the past—and it is still a serious risk today— also important; the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, referred government policy, and therefore government spending, to that. I congratulate the Minister on departmental has been focused on cities and urban areas without progress in that area. There is still much more to be appreciating that an inclusive policy that embraced done. the hinterland would be more effective. I stress that agriculture is the platform on which to City deals are a current vehicle for stimulating build our diverse rural economy. Mention has been economic growth and I understand why. However, made already of the dreadful experience in 2001 of there are very few parts of England that are more than foot and mouth disease, when the whole rural economy 15 miles from a city in this densely populated country was shut down. Farmers have buildings; they have of ours—although that is not quite so true of Scotland housing plots, with planning permission; they live and Wales. Rural areas have suffered in the past through near to villages. They can be the engines for enterprise urban-centric policies. The rural development agencies, and innovation through diversification as well as with few exceptions, struggle to embrace the rural contributing to the nation’s food security through economy. Having been established initially to deliver efficient food production. urban regeneration, they remain committed to that cause. I worked closely with them on the sustainable My final point is to stress the importance of the farming and food strategy during the 2000s. work my noble friend Lord Cameron is engaged in in seeking to rural-proof government policies. We need The local enterprise partnerships are now crucial to to go further than has been the case to date, to ensure this issue. They, too, in the main, are primarily focused that impact assessments undertaken for new legislation on urban and city areas, so we need, with the help of include not just the impact on business, as they do Defra and the Minister, to ensure that they firmly now, but specifically the impact on rural business. embrace rural issues and the rural economy within That is very important. their remit. With their expanded role to help and administer rural development funding they need I have already apologised to the noble Earl, Lord knowledge on their boards of the rural areas they Shrewsbury, for the fact that I need to leave to go to a cover. They need appropriate consultation mechanisms long-standing engagement. I apologise that I will not to ensure that they are spending funds wisely. The be able to hear the rest of the debate, but I will read LEPs need to develop strategic plans that see the Hansard with keen interest. integration of rural and urban within a single plan, as I said at the beginning. To present the option to 3.16 pm businesses looking to locate into an area with either a The Earl of Caithness (Con): My Lords, I, too, am rural or an urban location would be a step forward. grateful to my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury for The rural areas of Britain have so much to offer in introducing this debate. It is an important topic for us terms of quality of life, the working environment, to be covering at present. parking and so on. I ask that the Minister satisfies I am particularly grateful to be following the noble himself that the LEPs have strategic plans that they Lord, Lord Curry, for two reasons. First, he started implement and that recognise the importance of rural with a point that I wanted to raise; that is, how areas. difficult it is to define the rural economy. I have My second point is one that has already been made different figures regarding the benefit of the rural and will be repeated, I am sure, a number of times this economy and there is a difference between those figures afternoon—that is, the importance of agriculture within of well over 50%—so it depends what basis the figures Rural Economy[LORDS] Rural Economy

[EARL HOWE] homes in the countryside is getting much more difficult. are on. One must of course remember that the rural I remember how difficult it was to resolve when I was a areas cover not just those lovely little green fields Housing Minister more than 25 years ago, and it is outside towns in Sussex and south-east London where much more acute now. It is a very difficult problem to people could be walking today, but the wild moors of resolve but when one flies over our green and pleasant Scotland, which in six months’ time will doubtless be land, as I do on a fairly regular basis, one sees many under four or five feet of snow. People have to live, areas that could be developed reasonably, without work and earn their living in both those circumstances, causing long-term damage to the countryside or affecting with whatever variety of weather nature throws at us. necessary agricultural production. The noble Lord, Lord Curry, also mentioned Kirkharle. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury mentioned house I mentioned Kirkharle in the tourism debate in your prices. If we get more development in rural areas, Lordships’ House on 12 June. I am glad to see my there must be a greater chance of keeping open the noble friend Lord Gardiner of Kimble on the Front post offices, shops and pubs which are closing at Bench. He answered that debate; he knows the points present. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury also mentioned that I raised, so I will not go through them again. No country sports. These are immensely important, doubt he will bring them to the attention of my noble particularly in the more remote rural areas. In Scotland, friend the Minister who is going to reply. they are a vital part of how the countryside and local The noble Lord, Lord Curry, mentioned what villages operate. Surveys carried out in the rest of the happened at Kirkharle and I want once again to UK and in Scotland show how much country sports mention what has happened at the Castle of Mey, of are welcomed because they bring in extra tourism and which I am a trustee. That now employs 50 people extra finance and people who spend money. That is during the summer months, six on a full-time basis. what is crucial. It is very nice to have our pretty rural That is what is keeping the rural economy in these areas but, unless people are active there and tourists remote rural areas going. and visitors bring in money, those pretty little areas The question of broadband has been raised, so will remain just that and will not be places in which there is no need to reiterate that. My noble friend people can earn their living. Lady Bakewell mentioned the date of 2017, but that covers only 95% of the UK. The remaining 5% will be I conclude by referring to the importance of investment. in rural areas and they are going to be hugely discriminated There are two types of investment: government investment against unless further action is taken. I ask my noble and the more important private investment. The key friend the Minister when the Government’s response is to encouraging private investment is stability, whichever expected to the Law Commission review on the Electronic Government are in power in this country. Unless one Communications Code. This will be an important step has a consistent policy, people will not invest in the forward, because the present position is unclear and countryside in the way that they should. Therefore, inaccessible. stability is hugely important. There are enough problems given the whole question of the economy and the I will move now to an old pet subject of mine—that incidence of diseases that are unique to the countryside is, housing. I used to be a land agent and was also as opposed to urban areas. consultant to an estate agency, so housing has been in my life since I became qualified many years ago. There I urge the Scottish Government to be very careful is a balance to be struck between new housing and how they tread with regard to country sports, the agricultural land, as my noble friend Lord Plumb said. countryside and its ownership because a delicate balance Indeed, we discussed this many times in the agriculture has to be struck. When it works well, it is very good committee of your Lordships’ House. But, undoubtedly, and beneficial for all and for the economy as a whole. agricultural land will have to be surrendered, and However, if one tinkers with it and tries to amend it, it quickly. The present situation with regard to affordable will very easily collapse like a pack of cards. GC 1 Legal Aid Order 2014[7 JULY 2014] Legal Aid Order 2014 GC 2

of court proceedings which, for 14 to 17 year-olds, can Grand Committee result in a supervision order or a detention order being made under the Crime and Security Act 2010. The Monday, 7 July 2014. Government therefore consider that legal aid should remain available for advocacy in proceedings in respect 3.30 pm of injunctions to prevent gang-related violence for under-18s, notwithstanding the change of venue for Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of these proceedings as a result of the Crime and Courts Act 2013. To maintain the existing availability of civil Offenders Act 2012 (Amendment of legal aid, it is necessary to make an order specifying Schedule 1: injunctions to prevent gang- that advocacy for such proceedings is in scope of the related violence) Order 2014 civil legal aid scheme set out in LASPO. That is Motion to Consider achieved by the order before this Committee today. I hope that noble Lords will welcome the order. It Moved by Lord Faulks makes a relatively minor but important change to the That the Grand Committee do consider the Legal civil legal aid scheme which complements the wider Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act changes made by the Crime and Courts Act 2013. I 2012 (Amendment of Schedule 1: injunctions to therefore commend the draft order to the Committee prevent gang-related violence) Order 2014. and I beg to move. Relevant document: 2nd Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, has outlined, Schedule 1 to the LASPO Act sets out the scope of the civil legal The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord aid scheme. It is well documented that the Labour Faulks) (Con): My Lords, the order before us today Party, along with many other organisations, opposed amends Schedule 1 to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and what the Government did in respect of civil legal aid Punishment of Offenders Act to allow for advocacy in when they brought this Act into law. Having said that, a youth court to be funded by civil legal aid for from the autumn of this year, proceedings related to under-18s in respect of injunctions to prevent gang-related gang-related injunctions concerning people under the violence. The purpose of this draft order is to maintain age of 18 will move to the youth court from the county the existing availability of civil legal aid for under-18s court. We in the Opposition think that is a sensible in respect of advocacy related to injunctions to prevent move and support the transfer, along with the provision gang-related violence. An amendment to the Legal for civil legal aid to be available when the proceedings Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act move, which is what this order seeks to do. 2012 is necessary to reflect the change of venue for I note from the papers that, as this is regarded as a such injunctions made by the Crime and Courts Act relatively minor change, no specific consultation was 2013 from the county court to the youth court, which undertaken and no guidance is provided. This is not a is a specialist type of magistrates’ court. policy change and the impact is regarded as minimal, Before setting out further details about the order with no major impact on regulating small businesses. and why the Government are taking this action, I will However, it is said that the operation and expenditure briefly explain some background. Civil legal aid is on legal aid is continually monitored by the department, currently available for injunctions to prevent gang-related so perhaps the noble Lord could shed some light on violence under Part 4 of the Policing and Crime Act what has happened to date, for the benefit of the 2009 by virtue of paragraph 38 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 Grand Committee. Would he also agree that the effect to LASPO. These proceedings are currently heard in a of these injunctions was extremely important and High Court or county court, and Part 3 of Schedule 1 serious for individuals, both those who are the subject to LASPO, which sets out when advocacy may or may of them and those whom they seek to protect? Does he not be funded by civil legal aid, allows for this, subject have information on how effective the injunctions have to a means and merits test. Section 18 of the Crime been to date? If he is not able to provide that information and Courts Act 2013 amends Part 4 of the Police and today, will he write to me with further details including Crime Act 2009 to provide that, where a respondent any case studies that can highlight the effect to date? is aged under 18, a youth court will have jurisdiction With that, I should say that I am very happy with to grant gang-related injunctions. This reflects the the order. Government’s view that a youth court is a more suitable venue for such proceedings involving a child. The youth court is a type of magistrates’ court, designed in Lord Faulks: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his a child and youth-sensitive way. However, legal aid for comments. Although it is perfectly true that the party advocacy for proceedings before a magistrates’ court is opposite has been opposed to legal aid changes, it generally excluded from the scope of the civil legal aid does not oppose this order because it does not change scheme by virtue of Part 3 of Schedule 1 to LASPO. the eligibility of legal aid but is concerned only with With that background in mind, I will turn to the the venue of these hearings. reason for the order before us today. The Government The description of the change as “minor” simply recognise that restrictions may be placed upon a person’s refers to the effect in terms of substance, rather than liberty as the result of an injunction to prevent gang-related suggesting that the injunctions related to minor matters. violence. Breach of an injunction can lead to contempt They do not. They are a relatively new weapon in the GC 3 Legal Aid Order 2014[LORDS] Adoption and Children Act Register GC 4

[LORD FAULKS] The Adoption and Children Act register is successful hands of local authorities and the police to try to in finding adoptive families for children. In the past control gang activity, and particularly to discourage three years, more than 1,040 children in England have youths from joining gangs. That is sometimes to those been matched by the register with families who can particular youths’ benefit. Say older brothers or other meet their needs and give them stability and security. members of the community put pressure on them to However, despite this success, there are still large join a gang; an injunction preventing your doing so is numbers of children waiting on the register for a new a very good answer, so in a sense it protects individuals family. At the start of June this year, the register from themselves. contained 1,345 children waiting for adoption and There has not as yet been an enormous take-up of 747 adoptive families. Once they have been approved the orders. However, they have been operational, to adopt, adopters have to wait to be matched to a particularly in London, the West Midlands, Birmingham, child, with possible matches first scrutinised by the Merseyside and Manchester. As I said, it is very much adopter’s and child’s social worker. The adopters currently those on the periphery of gangs whom we are talking have a limited, passive role to play in that process. This about; those at the centre of the gangs tend to attract leads to delays for children that might otherwise be the attention of the police and may end up being avoided, which is detrimental for those children. It can prosecuted for specific offences. The injunctions are also be enormously frustrating for adopters when they important, and although they are not yet widely used are unable to play a more active role in identifying we hope that their use will increase, particularly in children for whom they might be suitable adopters. We London, where gangs are so much of a problem, as believe that opening up the register so that adopters your Lordships’ House will be well aware. can access it will significantly speed up the matching process. This will be particularly beneficial for those Although the noble Lord did not specifically ask, I children who are currently seen as harder to place yet should say that if an injunction is breached it can so desperately need a loving home. These include result in an order for contempt of court, which can children from minority-ethnic backgrounds, sibling conceivably result in a sentence of imprisonment of an groups and disabled children. We discussed this point individual. I reassure the House that there will then be at length during the passage of the Bill. Too many of legal aid in those circumstances, although that will these children wait too long for adoptive parents. be criminal legal aid rather than civil legal aid, which covers these circumstances. Evidence for this approach is already demonstrated The change of venue reflects the Government’s by the current exchange days, where social workers are view that the youth court is a more suitable place for able to meet adopters to share more details about the proceedings that involve a child to be conducted. We children who are waiting for homes. The register held therefore believe that this is a reasonable and sensible six national exchange days between March 2013 and amendment, which aims to ensure that civil legal aid January 2014 and 109 children were matched by local remains available for advocacy for under-18s in respect authorities at these events—that is, 80 groups of children. of the injunctions to prevent gang-related violence. I A total of 412 prospective adopters attended these hope that noble Lords agree that this is a proportionate events with around one in five matched with a child as and sensible measure. a direct result of attending. An adoption worker from the London Borough of Barnet recently emphasised Motion agreed. the benefits of this adopter-led approach: “Exchange days really are unique … they help to bring the children to life for the adopters, and allow them to explore Adoption and Children Act Register potential matches that they may not necessarily have considered”. (Search and Inspection) (Pilot) Exchange days are important and we are working with the sector to increase their use. They are not the Regulations 2014 answer alone, however. Exchange days work because Motion to Consider adopters have better information about children waiting for adoption. This helps them to identify with children 3.39 pm they would not otherwise have considered. Many of these matches might not be ones that would necessarily Moved by Lord Nash have occurred to social workers. The best way to That the Grand Committee do consider the capitalise on this approach and achieve more matches Adoption and Children Act Register (Search and more quickly is to allow adopters to have direct access Inspection) (Pilot) Regulations 2014. to the register. Allowing adopters to search the register for themselves, to see videos and pictures and to hear Relevant document: 3rd Report from the Joint and see children speak and laugh will allow the child’s Committee on Statutory Instruments real personality to shine through. In short, it will allow some opportunity for all-important chemistry to play The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for a part in adopters identifying a child who they might Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, the regulations wish to adopt. that we are considering today would allow approved Of course, noble Lords will already be aware that prospective adopters in the named pilot areas to look allowing approved adopters to search the data of at information about children on the register. The children is not new. Many already choose to subscribe regulations are some of the first to be laid under Part 1 to magazines such as Be My Parent and Children Who of the Children and Families Act 2014. Wait. Opening up the register will take this one step GC 5 Adoption and Children Act Register[7 JULY 2014] Adoption and Children Act Register GC 6 further as local authorities are under a statutory duty Baroness Tyler of Enfield (LD): My Lords, I rise to refer children to the register if they are not exploring briefly just to make a couple of comments on the a specific local match for children. We want to pilot regulations, and register my interest as chair of CAFCASS. this approach for nine months to ensure that we can In principle I am very supportive of this pilot. There understand in detail how to make the process work are a number of good reasons for adopting this sort of most effectively in practice before undertaking a national approach, and I am aware from my work that a rollout. Of course, the safety of children and the number of innovative programmes such as adoption privacy of their information are paramount. That is activity days, which have been instigated to increase why we are putting in place all the necessary safeguards the number of adoptions and get a better matching to ensure that sensitive personal information about process, have proved successful. children and adopters is fully protected in line with the My first point is that it is of course of great importance Data Protection Act 1998. to us all in this House to ensure that vulnerable I reassure the Committee that the information that children are properly protected and safeguarded. I approved adopters will be able to access will be non- listened with a lot of attention to what my noble friend identifying, so there will be no risk that individual said about the stringent safeguards that have been put children’s full names or precise locations will be identified. in place to ensure that those data are protected. It is Only approved adopters will be able to search details good to hear that but we are all aware of some things of children on the register. They must give written that have happened in recent times, however stringent confirmation that they will keep their password and the safeguards around data protection and IT systems information about children safe. Noble Lords will also have been. Can my noble friend reassure me just once be reassured by the fact that the pilot will be subject to more that he feels that every possible safeguard has stringent data security measures. In addition, it will be been put in place? run by the experienced team from the British Association As to my second point, I know that the evidence for Adoption and Fostering, which has run the register from the adopter-led matchings that we have seen so service for 10 years without a data security lapse. far has led more adopters to take a greater sense of Noble Lords will remember that we published the ownership for what they are doing and to consider a indicative version of the regulations shortly before the wider range of children. I know that there are early House began scrutinising the then Children and Families signs that adopter-led matching enables adopters to Bill. We later undertook a formal public consultation. think perhaps in terms of a broader group of children, Respondents were very supportive of the pilot proposals. rather than the just the nought to two year-olds who Noble Lords will see from the schedule to the regulations adopters so often feel they still want. Has the Minister that, subject to approval of the regulations, adopters any more information about the number of adopters from 29 local authorities and voluntary adoption agencies involved in this and similar processes who have shown across England will be involved in the pilot. I was that they are happy to adopt slightly older children, or delighted that all 29 agencies agreed to participate perhaps sibling groups? This, again, was one of the within a week of our invitation. No agency declined. issues that came up when we were considering the then This demonstrates the real appetite across the sector Children and Families Bill. for these improvements. Caroline Ibbotson, director of the Yorkshire Adoption Agency, said: “We are really looking forward to being involved in the Baroness Hughes of Stretford (Lab): My Lords, I Register pilot. We believe it gives our approved adopters a great too welcome in principle the regulations, which will opportunity to get fully involved in the family finding process and enable access to the register by prospective adopters. that it will increase the number of potential families being considered As the Minister has said, we debated the principle of for each child”. this extensively in the course of the Bill, when it was a Piloting these improvements to the register will give us Bill, and I do not intend to spend time on that. It is the best chance of evaluating the impact before making worth experimenting further to see if this will improve decisions about how to proceed. Our evaluation will the timescales within which children can be successfully include suggestions made during the consultation earlier matched, provided that there are sufficient safeguards, this year. We will publish an evaluation report within as the noble Baroness has just said. three months of the end of the pilot. The safeguards as regards access by prospective In summary, I know that this Committee will agree adopters, and the identities of the children outlined in that we must do everything we can to find loving the arrangements, are satisfactory and robust. The homes for some of our most disadvantaged children. issue is the one identified by the noble Baroness opposite: The work of the register is a crucial part of this effort. data security. I agree with her that we want to be as These regulations would enable the register to match clear as possible about this. children more effectively. Jeanne Kaniuk, managing director of adoption services for Coram, has said that I know the register will be separated into Part 1 and this kind of approach, Part 2, the latter for those children who could be placed in a fostering-for-adoption placement, which is “has given adopters a good opportunity to get a real sense of the sensible and important. I simply want to make two children and what their individual personalities and needs are. This helps adopters to understand the reality of the children points. One is about the consultation. Although the waiting, and has proved an effective way to find good matches—for Minister said it was a full public consultation, there example, brothers aged 12 months and 4 years were successfully were only 41 responses to this. Given the importance placed with adopters following an Exchange Day in the East of this measure, that is a very low level of response. I Midlands, and have since been successfully adopted”. wonder if that is because, as the Secondary Legislation I commend the regulations to the House. Scrutiny Committee has pointed out, there were only GC 7 Adoption and Children Act Register[LORDS] Terrorism Act 2000 Order 2014 GC 8

[BARONESS HUGHES OF STRETFORD] matches to make sure we improve matching and for six weeks for this consultation over a very busy bank what we can learn. I pay tribute to her party for and public holiday period from the end of February introducing exchange days in the first place. through to April, taking in Easter and so on. That is The real driver here is to try to speed up the process. important, and I would be grateful if the Minister The evidence is clear that every year that children fail could comment as to why it was only six weeks, when to be adopted reduces their chance of being adopted the normal period of 12 weeks might have got more by 20%. We must be very mindful of the damage to responses and more helpful pointers from respondents. those children during that time. My second set of points concerns the pilots. This is On the length of the consultation, I should say that extremely important, as the Minister said, not only to we published indicative regulations five months before ensure that the systems work, but to see if we can the consultation began, so we thought it was long garner any further information about the outcomes enough. for children from this approach. Nine months is not a I hope I have answered all the points that noble terribly long period to see what happens to children as Lords made. I can think of no better way of concluding a result of adopter-led access to the register. I do not our discussions today than by quoting an adopter who know, but there may be unintended consequences of visited an exchange day. The adopter said: adopter-led adoption. Surely we would want to know, for instance, if—relatively—more of these matches “For the first time, these children featured in magazines were suddenly real and we could potentially be their new forever instigated by adopters either failed or were more successful. parents… I don’t think I would have approached some of the I have looked carefully at the explanatory notes that children just by reading their profiles or seeing a picture… It was set out the scope of the pilot, which I think should be a very effective way of dispelling some preconceived ideas or made a little wider, looking not just at the actual anxieties about children waiting for placement”. matches but at what happens to the inquiries by adopters in relation to particular children. How many of them Motion agreed. actually lead to a match, and how many are stopped in process by social workers for whatever reason? Can we 3.57 pm extend the remit of the pilot, so we get under the skin of what is happening before the whole facility for Sitting suspended. access goes live nationwide? Thirdly, I have a thought. I have great respect for both the Department for Education and for the BAAF, Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice but I wonder if there was merit in this pilot being evaluated independently, and not by either the department for Examining Officers and Review or the BAAF, which are obviously responsible for its Officers) Order 2014 administration. But I broadly very much welcome the Motion to Consider measure, and look forward to seeing the results of the pilot. 4.05 pm Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Lord Nash: I am grateful to noble Lords for their comments. Turning to the points raised by my noble That the Grand Committee do consider the friend Lady Tyler, I reiterate a few points and add a Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for Examining few more on the safety front. Of course the safety of Officers and Review Officers) Order 2014. children—and of adopters—and the privacy of their information is paramount. The pilot will be subject to Relevant document: 4th Report from the Joint stringent independent accreditation to ensure that any Committee on Statutory Instruments risks are managed appropriately. It will be run by the BAAF, which has a very good record of this, as I said. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Section 129 of the Adoption and Children Act 2002 Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My Lords, as sets out that wrongful disclosure of information on noble Lords will know, Schedule 7 to the Terrorism the register is punishable by a fine of up to £5,000 and Act 2000 allows an examining officer to stop and up to three months in prison. Information that approved question—and, when necessary, detain and search— adopters will be able to access about children will not individuals travelling through ports, airports, international enable them to make any direct approaches. All approved rail stations or the border area to determine whether adopters must give written confirmation that they will that person appears to be someone who is or has been keep their password safe and will be reminded of their concerned in the commission, preparation or instigation data protection duties. If they do not use the register of acts of terrorism. Examining people at ports and within a fairly short period, they will not be able to the border area contributes on a daily basis to keeping continue to access it. We will have a pretty close idea the British public safe. Those engaged in terrorist-related who has access to the register at any time. activity travel to plan, finance, train for and commit The noble Baronesses asked about the number of their attacks. Most major international terrorist plots adoptions made. It is early days. There is good evidence have involved individuals travelling through international from the States. We know that one-fifth of matches are borders to plan and prepare their attacks. Schedule 7 made through exchange days. In answer to the point is an important part of the UK’s counterterrorism made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hughes, I can say strategy and integral to the UK’s border security that we will analyse in detail the experience of these arrangements. GC 9 Terrorism Act 2000 Order 2014[7 JULY 2014] Terrorism Act 2000 Order 2014 GC 10

The Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act, problem where is none. Perhaps my noble friend has which received Royal Assent on 13 March 2014, made information, although he may not, about the proportion changes to Schedule 7—and to Schedule 8, which of officers who will be trained to undertake the more provides for the treatment of persons detained under senior role. Schedule 7 powers. These changes were made following I shall raise a point again that I raised during the extensive public consultation in 2012 and are intended passage of the Bill. Will training cover how officers to reduce the potential scope for Schedule 7 to be should deal with the family or other accompanying operated in ways that may interfere with individuals’ passengers of the individual who is being held or rights unnecessarily or disproportionately, while retaining detained? I think that I mentioned during the Bill’s operational effectiveness. passage that I had come across an example, which I The changes made to Schedule 7 include: reducing hope was a rare one, of an individual being told that, the maximum period of examination from nine to six if he insisted on waiting for a legal representative, it hours; extending to individuals detained at a port the would be a problem for his elderly mother, with whom statutory rights, already available to individuals detained he was travelling. In other words, inappropriate pressure under Schedule 7 at a police station, to have a person was put on him to forgo a right. I am also not clear informed of their detention and to consult a solicitor what happens if, because of detention, passengers privately; clarifying that the right to consult a solicitor miss their flights. I hope that my noble friend can also includes consultation in person; ensuring that all confirm that the facilities for this work are satisfactory individuals examined for more than one hour are and appropriate. We have talked about short-term formally detained and given their statutory rights; holding facilities a good deal, of course. introducing statutory review of the need for continued The code refers to legal privilege, where the restriction detention; introducing a statutory requirement for seems to be on copying, not on looking at it. You training of examining and reviewing officers; establishing cannot erase something from your head although, a statutory provision that undertaking strip-searches obviously, there would be a restriction on using it—but of persons detained under Schedule 7 powers requires what happens if a privileged document is copied when reasonable grounds to suspect that the person is concealing it should not be? something which may be evidence that they are involved in terrorism, and requires a supervising officer’s authority; Paragraph 41 suggests that consultation with a repealing the unused power to seek intimate samples, solicitor is not invariably allowed. This is in the eg blood or semen; and making express provision that examination part of the code, not the detention part. I an examining officer may make and retain a copy of had thought that it was always allowed, but not necessarily information obtained or found in the course of an with a solicitor of the individual’s choice. Is that only examination. when the individual is actually detained? Noble Lords will appreciate that our discussions Paragraph 42 states that an examining officer may are consequential on the full debates that we had when grant a request that a named person is informed of the the Bill was before us. The existing code of practice examination at his discretion and that: must be revised to reflect the changes made to the “Where reasonably practicable, the request should be granted”. powers by the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Is it discretion or reasonable practicality? Act and to make specific provision on training and Paragraph 45, which is where we get on to detention, reviews. I am grateful to noble Lords for attending this states that the power may be exercised, debate and beg to move. “where the examining officer considers it is appropriate to do so”. The last bullet point of paragraph 46 states that: Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, this is consequential on previous debates. It is amazing how “Detention is an option (during the first hour of examination)”. much and how quickly all that agonising goes out of Is that bullet point just about the first hour of detention? one’s head, and one has to remind oneself of the If I am asking too many questions, I have no doubt subject of it. I am glad that we have had the chance to that my noble friend will ask to write to me. consider the draft code of practice and the covering However, I will raise a couple of matters which I SI. What concerns me is the delay in the introduction hope he can confirm now. First, paragraph 7.2 of the of the review arrangements, which I assume is because Explanatory Memorandum reads: it has simply not been possible to get the training in “Examining people at ports and the border area contributes place quickly enough. I am not suggesting that the daily to plan, finance, train for, and commit their attacks”. better provisions of the legislation, as they are after the work done on the then Anti-social Behaviour, I shall not reread that, but when the Minister looks at Crime and Policing Bill, should be delayed. However, it, he will realise that some words must be missing. I could my noble friend confirm that training is on do not think you detain people in order to help them track for the more senior officers, who will be detailed plan their attacks. I have had a word with the Minister’s to undertake the reviews, and how supervision will be officials, and I think they think it is a typo, but quite carried out in the mean time? I notice that the code an important one. says that it will be delayed until the relevant provisions My second question is on similar lines, but I think I come into force. However, in distinction, the paragraphs am on dodgier ground. It is on annexe A to the code, about audio recording say that there is no requirement which explains to the detainee that he is detained to to follow the code until next April. That is the time determine essentially either whether he is involved in when the review provisions are to come into force, or terrorism or whether he is entering or leaving Northern so we are told. I do not know whether I am seeing a Ireland. I thought, or perhaps I had assumed without GC 11 Terrorism Act 2000 Order 2014[LORDS] Terrorism Act 2000 Order 2014 GC 12

[BARONESS HAMWEE] regard, could the Minister clarify what legal entitlements applying much thinking, that it should be “and” rather people have when detained under Schedule 7? Will than “or”. Looking at Schedule 7, Northern Ireland is they have access to free legal advice? dealt with in a separate paragraph. Will my noble The changes also include reducing the maximum friend confirm that detention can be solely to establish period of examination from nine hours to six hours. whether somebody is going into Northern Ireland The Government and others recently expressed concerns without any terrorism-related aspect? I am sorry to about the numbers going from this country to Syria have slung that at my noble friend. I looked at this apparently to be trained and engage in violence in the rather too close to the time of the debate to give him current conflict, and the possible consequences of notice of the rather detailed points which I have just that. In the light of concerns about what might happen raised. if and when these people return to this country, with or without others, and what their intentions might Lord Rosser (Lab): I will be giving the Minister a then be, is it the Government’s view that all the changes somewhat easier time than he has just been given by made by the 2014 Act, including reducing the maximum the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. period of examination from nine hours to six hours, I thank the Minister for the explanation of the actually enhance our ability to minimise the risk of purpose of this order, which brings into operation a those potential threats? Do the Government believe code of practice for examining officers and review that the new code of practice provided for in this officers in respect of the exercise of the powers under order—reflecting the amendments made to Schedule 7 Schedule 7 to the Terrorism Act 2000 and under of the 2000 Act by the 2014 Act—contribute to rather Schedule 8 to that Act where the powers are exercised than potentially diminish our security in the present in connection with Schedule 7, as amended by Schedule climate? 9 to the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act I simply conclude by commenting that the Explanatory 2014. The code of practice revises the preceding code Memorandum states that, of practice to take account of amendments made to “the majority of consultation respondents agreed that the revised Schedules 7, 8 and 14 to the Terrorism Act 2000 by the code clearly reflected the changes made to Schedule 7 powers in Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. the”, The Explanatory Memorandum refers to commencing 2014 Act. What it is not able to say is that the majority the remaining provisions of Schedule 9 to the 2014 of respondents agreed that in today’s climate all those Act this month to coincide with the issue of the code changes are still appropriate. We will not oppose this of practice brought into operation by this instrument, order, but I hope that the Minister will respond directly with the exception of the provision to which the noble to the points and questions I raised, as well as those of Baroness, Lady Hamwee, referred requiring review of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. the detention of persons detained under Schedule 7, which are being delayed until next April to allow sufficient time to develop, accredit and train all examining Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank both and review officers. I shall pursue some of the points my noble friend Lady Hamwee and the noble Lord, she raised. Will the Minister say how many examining Lord Rosser, for their contributions to our discussions and review officers still require to be trained, how long on these issues. It is important that I try as best I can the training of each officer takes and why the required to answer the questions now. If there are things left training has not been completed by this month and unsaid at the end I am obviously very happy to write. has had to be delayed? The need for such training It was fortunate that there was a brief adjournment must have been known for some time. Could the before we started because it gave my noble friend a Minister also spell out the impact of this delay, in chance to have a word with officials and give advance practical terms, including any impact on the provisions notice of the things that she was particularly concerned of this instrument, which comes into force at the end about. Perhaps I can deal with the details. of this month? On paragraph 7.2, we can give an undertaking that The Explanatory Memorandum also refers in we will correct the wording so that it reads as it paragraph 4.5 to consultation on this issue having should. It is perhaps not capable of being interpreted taken place with “National Business Leads”. Perhaps at the moment. As my noble friend admitted, she was the Minister could remind me who or what this on slightly weaker grounds when it came to annexe A organisation is or these people are. because the wording is designed to ensure that the As the Minister said, the Explanatory Memorandum code of practice works equally well whether the person states in paragraph 7.2 that: is stopped at a GB port or the person is stopped at the “Schedule 7 is an important part of the UK’s counter-terrorism Irish border. That is why the wording is as it is. strategy and key to the UK’s border security”. Perhaps my noble friend will tell me if she feels that The memorandum goes on: that is not correct. “The changes to Schedule 7 in the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act are intended to reduce the potential scope She asked whether training was on track. It is on for Schedule 7 powers to be operated in an unnecessary or track and is a nationwide programme. We are working disproportionate way, whilst still retaining their operational out a training package and rolling it out nationally effectiveness”. because we want to make sure that we operate to It then lists the changes made under the 2014 Act. consistently higher standards. I know that the noble They include ensuring access to legal advice for all Lord, Lord Rosser, asked for quite a few details about individuals examined for more than one hour. In that the training programme, the time taken and what was GC 13 Terrorism Act 2000 Order 2014[7 JULY 2014] Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels GC 14 involved. If he is happy for me to do so, I should be covered in the code of practice, and which arise as a pleased to write to him with further details of what the result of the 2014 Act, are all still appropriate in the training involves. light of the security concerns being expressed by the Government and others in relation to Syria. Lord Rosser: I am happy to await a letter from the Minister but can he cover in his reply why the training Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I can assure the noble has been delayed—the word “delay” is used in the Lord that they are appropriate. Indeed, the independent Explanatory Memorandum? I mentioned that the need reviewer of terrorism legislation recorded in his report for such training must surely have been known for in 2012 that these particular interviews have been some time. He could address that point in his letter, as instrumental in securing evidence which has assisted well as the impact on the instrument of the delay in terrorist prosecutions, and that they are very important. referred to in the Explanatory Memorandum. The truth of the matter is that the number of people detained for over six hours is very small and is usually Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am quite prepared to do confined to circumstances where the examination was so. I know off the top of my head that the problem is more protracted than it needed to have been. We are that standards are not equal across the country, but we now satisfied that we can do this within six hours, are obviously now trying to make sure that officers’ otherwise we would not be bringing this legislation roles under these powers are considerably enhanced forward. and need to operate properly at every point. We are cutting down the hours, which is fine; there is no Motion agreed. security risk by doing that as long as the process is properly managed and dealt with. That is part of the reason for the change. Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels My noble friend said that she thought there was Question for Short Debate perhaps already an opportunity for consultations. As I say, the interview depended on whether it involved 4.32 pm those detained at a port or those detained in a police station. Those detained within a port were not necessarily Asked by Lord Soley supported with the same rigour as those detained To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the within a police station. That will change under this Ministry of Defence policy on the use of biofuels new regime. for the Armed Forces. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked which organisations we consulted. I do not have those names Lord Soley (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful for the but I would again be happy to write to him. If I may, I opportunity to bring this matter before the Committee will write both to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and to and the Minister. He knows my views on this subject, my noble friend Lady Hamwee together, so that they which go back to a Question for Written Answer on will also have the answers to each other’s questions. I 16 January this year. On that day I got what I regarded know that they share an interest in those answers. as probably one of the most disappointing and depressing That more or less concludes my response, although Answers I have had to a Parliamentary Question for a I wish to mention a couple of other things. Review very long time. Basically, I asked about the use of provisions will commence on 1 April 2015. Audio biofuels by the Army, Navy and Air Force, and the recording is delayed to allow facilities at ports to be answer came back that they are used in “road transport”. provided; noble Lords will understand that facilities at The only hopeful part of the Answer was the last line, ports are not as good as they may be elsewhere, but it which stated that: is already a requirement to report interviews at police “The MOD is encouraging these manufacturers to work towards stations. adopting biofuels in the future”.—[Official Report, 16/1/14; I hope that I have been able to deal with at least col. WA 37.] some of the questions. I remind everyone that only 1% It is a depressing Answer by any standard because of examinations result in detention, and 96% of those there are three very good reasons why we should be examined under Schedule 7 are held for less than an using, in particular, the new generation of biofuels. hour. We are dealing with those in detention, who are The first of those reasons is climate change. However, a relatively small number of individuals, but we must even if you are not worried about climate change, the make sure that they are properly safeguarded and that second reason is security of fuel supply and the safety we have processes in place to ensure that the security of our troops in the field. I will say more about that in of the country is maintained. a moment. The third reason concerns research and development. We in this country are in danger of Lord Rosser: My Lords, I do not know if the noble falling seriously behind what is being done in many Lord wishes to respond to me now or in a letter, but I countries in Europe and elsewhere. From my point of referred to the reduction in the period for examination view this is an important issue, so the Answer on from nine hours to six hours; and to the concerns 16 January was deeply depressing. expressed very recently about what is happening with Perhaps I may put this in context by talking first people going to Syria, then perhaps returning to this about what other countries are doing. I shall give a few country, and what their intentions may be. I asked the examples to show the Committee how far behind we Minister whether the Government feel that the provisions have slipped compared with other nations. As one GC 15 Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels[LORDS] Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels GC 16

[LORD SOLEY] The United States Marine Corps said that when would predict, the United States is well ahead, but I you do not need as much resupply for fuel, water and shall give a few examples. It has what it calls, curiously, batteries, you can stay out longer, do the mission at the “Great Green Fleet”. It might sound an unusual greater distances and do not put marines at risk. The name, and it is, but basically the United States intends other thing I mention here is that the United States the whole of that fleet to be biofuel-enabled by next Air Force certified biofuels for use in F15s, F16s and year: aircraft, ships, everything else and the marines C17 cargo planes, so we are talking about very large who are in it. I will come back to that point. cargo aircraft, including high-performance jets. They One of the reasons I think this is so important is were all certified for the alternative fuels. The United that there is a tendency to think of biofuel as just States Army was anticipating, or has already achieved, something you drop in aircraft tanks or in ships’ fuel that most of its ground vehicles, including Humvees, supplies. It is not. It goes much further than that. The Abrams battle tanks and Apache helicopters, would United States Marine Corps makes the point that be dual-fuel use by the end of last year. When you put marines are equipped with biofuel resources for their that against the Answer I received on 16 January, you safety. In Afghanistan, for every 50 convoys bringing will see why I am concerned. in gasoline, one marine was killed or wounded. That is This is not just about climate change, which is why quite a few years back they started producing important, and I hope that I do not need to spell it out biofuels in Afghanistan. They were flying aircraft on in any more detail. What I want to talk about is algae produced on site because that could not be security. Unless you think that gasoline supplies from blown up en route from Afghanistan. More importantly, the Middle East are entirely safe, then we had better to convey how far ahead they were, I point out that start thinking about where we get our fuels from. they realised that to supply the energy needs of marines Again, it is no guarantee to rely on North Sea oil, or sent into the field, those marines had to carry 700-gram whatever. By making your aircraft, your fleets and batteries—no, not grams; I will have to give the figure your army units reliant on biofuels, as well as being in a moment. They had to carry heavyweight batteries, able to use gasoline, you are in a much stronger and that weighed them down. Now they are provided position and able to cope with many of the changes with resources that enable them to provide their energy taking place in the world. I emphasise the importance needs in the field entirely from the sun and other of that. Again, it is not as if it is not being done renewable resources on site. In other words, they are elsewhere. Airlines such as British Airways, Virgin, Air safer and their equipment is lighter. It is a very important New Zealand and Lufthansa are all flying on biofuel step forward, and it produced great advantages for mixes. When you fly in any of their aircraft you are them. now nearly always flying on a biofuel mix. One of the I wonder what we were doing in Afghanistan with best examples we have in this country is in south-east this. I suspect we were not doing any of it. I suspect we London, where research is being done, initiated by were not even using the fuels being supplied by the British Airways. They are using fuel from household United States for its own aircraft. We must remember waste, and other additives. that these were for high-performance aircraft. The We can go on ignoring this issue but, when I went F18 Hornet flies at close to mach 2. This is not used through the literature, I found that the research in this just for small aircraft. It is not of limited use. country is relatively limited compared to what is being By 2020, half the energy needs of the United States done elsewhere in the world. One of the things I Navy and the United States Marine Corps will be noticed was the visit of Rear Admiral Neil Morisetti from non-fossil fuels. F18s are flying on biofuels right RN to the United States. He is the UK’s climate and now. The Library Note, which is very useful on this, energy adviser, which I am sure the Minister will know gives a lot of background. One of the best extracts is about. He came back with the recommendation that from the New Scientist. It indicates the way that the the US and the UK should collaborate more closely United States Marine Corps was operating. The figure on the development of strategic high-performance I was missing a few moments ago is that it saved biofuel. In other words we know about this, and we marines carrying 700 pounds of batteries when they know what other countries are doing—at least I hope went out on patrol. If you have any knowledge of the Minister and his department know what other what troops have to carry on their backs when they go countries are doing—but frankly we are not doing it on patrol, you will know that it is a major saving. ourselves. It is not just the United States. On the Floor of the That leaves us behind on climate change and House the other month, I drew attention to the Italian particularly on security, and very much on the R&D navy warship which is operating in the Baltic at the initiative. Rolls-Royce was one of the companies cited moment and is entirely biofuel-enabled. The other as doing it, and there are smaller companies involved, year, the Royal Netherlands Air Force was flying but there is much that we can do in this country— high-performance Apache helicopters on biofuels. The particularly on algae, which I have mentioned before— pilots’ only comment was that it smelt different—not which will enable us to keep up to speed on this. so sulphurous—when they returned to base. There Frankly, we have fallen seriously behind. I say to the was no performance difference. I am not saying that Minister, if I get nothing else from this debate, that I there are no problems about conversion or in making want some recognition from him that we will never get ships, aircraft or whatever biofuel-operable, but they an Answer like that again. It was so depressing and so are far less than is often thought. Above all, they are lacking in content. We really have to do very much part of the research and development that is going on. better. GC 17 Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels[7 JULY 2014] Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels GC 18

4.43 pm other areas, often forested places, which leads to substantial CO emissions because the production of biofuels Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD): My Lords, I thank 2 generates the emission of CO , thus drastically reducing the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for putting this debate 2 their benefit? down. When I saw it listed, I felt that it was rather like Groundhog Day, or déjà vu, because three months Most military vehicles use diesel, as is the case in ago, or 31 March of this year, that the noble Lord other countries, and of course biodiesel can be blended asked the Government whether they intended to increase with diesel for general use in many vehicles, but sourcing the use of biofuels for the Armed Forces. I waited with is deeply problematic. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, interest to see what the noble Lord was going to bring used the example of the conflict in Afghanistan, which up in the debate. I have not been disappointed, because raises the question of how and where biofuels are it has certainly added to the knowledge that we need created. It is all very well if they are produced in to have. Afghanistan for use in that conflict, but bearing in There is nothing wrong with using biofuels from mind that we are not looking to enter into another food waste and crops which would not otherwise go conflict like Afghanistan or another invasion of Iraq, into food production. However I am going to take a how will we source these biofuels on location? I ask slightly different angle from the noble Lord. My concern this because we are probably talking about smaller is that I have heard nothing to suggest that the Ministry forces going into smaller conflicts so there is a question of Defence, or indeed the noble Lord, Lord Soley, about whether these biofuels can be produced locally. cares at all about the harm to food production. I There are claims that certain wonder-biodiesel crops assume that this is considered to be a concern of Defra can be grown on a large scale on marginal land for rather than the MoD. It must be the concern of biofuel without conflicting with existing crops. According somebody. The problem of this Government and earlier to my research, I am afraid that these claims are Administrations is the compartmentalisation of policies unproven and they have not materialised in the and decisions. marketplace. I suppose that I need to ask some direct questions I turn now to the interjection by the noble Lord, of my noble friend the Minister. When the MoD Lord Soley. In theory, biodiesel can be made from makes use of biofuels, is any contact made with Defra algae, but it need not necessarily be biodiesel. Biofuels or any other interested bodies as to whether their use have been used in aircraft on demonstration flights. has affected food crops? Has the use of biofuels increased However, in spite of decades of research, no large-scale the cost of food? A lot of research has been done on production of such biofuels exists that I know of. this issue. Indeed, if anyone could make the production of biofuels from algae viable, they would probably be richer than Lord Soley: Perhaps I may intervene briefly to say Bill Gates. The noble Lord mentioned the so-called that I am with the noble Lord all the way, but the next second generation biofuels made by a process of wood or new generation of biofuels really has very little and straw fermentation, but so far they have failed to impact on food production. The fuels are based on succeed on a large scale, despite strong European and things like algae and so on. American incentives. I could go on to discuss compressed biogas and so on, but perhaps this is not the time to do so. Lord Palmer of Childs Hill: I will come on to the interesting point about algaes in a moment. In March, My contribution to this debate is to sound a note of the Minister stated that the MoD uses biofuels for caution around the very interesting points that have road transport, and the question essentially being been made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley. There is a asked by the noble Lord, Lord Soley, is whether downside, which is the impact on food production. biofuels have progressed beyond that end use. More That should be taken into account. This whole thing is specifically, will biofuels be used in the two new aircraft aimed at the MoD and the aircraft and vessels used by carriers, which will clearly consume vast amounts of the MoD, but the use of biofuels is not just military. fuel? Does the new F35B fighter use biofuels at all? I There is a much wider session to be had, which any am trying to put some specifics on the points raised by Government of any hue would need to look. In a the noble Lord, Lord Soley. small world, this is something the MoD needs to look at. On a positive note, the drive to produce biofuels that are suitable for aviation is starting to look promising. I have 10 minutes. I am sorry but I am well within I am not sure that I agree with the totality of what the my time—though I have no wish to exceed time if noble Lord, Lord Soley, said, but one of the state need be. governments in Brazil has put in place a policy to The noble Lord, Lord Soley, concentrates on the stimulate the cultivation, extraction and processing of MoD and its use of biofuels, but this is a much wider the native macaw palm, which is a potentially sustainable subject. I would like any Government, this Government source. I would hope that this is something that R&D or any other future Administration, to look at how somewhere within the Government would be pursuing. Defra and other government departments work with Further, on the other side of the argument, can the the MoD to see whether biofuels should be used. We Minister comment on the accusation made in 2013 already know that biofuels are part of the fuel we get that the EU missed an opportunity by failing to agree from petrol pumps. There is a percentage of biofuels a cap on the use of biofuels? Can he also comment on in petrol. Things are moving. I understand what the studies which show that as land is dedicated to energy noble Lord, Lord Soley, says about the lack of R&D crops, land for growing food is simply taken from in the UK, but I do not believe that it is R&D GC 19 Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels[LORDS] Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels GC 20

[LORD PALMER OF CHILDS HILL] At the same, the Minister indicated that the, specifically for the MoD; it is R&D for the Government. “defence equipment and support fuel team regularly engages with We need to have some joined-up thinking between manufacturers to understand the most recent research and how government departments about whether it is a good this might apply to the MoD’s fuel requirements in the future”.— thing, whether it is a good thing in certain places, [Official Report, 31/3/14; col. 742.] whether it is reducing food production and whether it I do not know, but the last point might include a is the way forward. Just because our allies in the reference to biofuel that does not use food and food United States are using it does not necessarily convince products, but is generated from bacteria, using waste me that it is the way forward, but it could be. materials and is sometimes referred to as advanced biofuels. These do not take land out of agricultural 4.51 pm use or impact on rainforests. Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, I thank my noble There is a target under the renewal energy directive, friend Lord Soley for enabling us to debate this issue. which requires EU countries to derive 10% of their He referred to climate change, security of fuel supplies transport energy from renewable sources by 2020. Can and falling behind in research and development the Minister confirm whether the use of other forms considerations as reasons for moving to biofuels. As of transport apart from road transport for military my noble friend said, this is far from being the first purposes is covered by the directive? I assume from his time he has raised this question. He pursued it in an previous responses that the answer is no, but I should Oral Question just over three months ago when the be grateful for confirmation of the position. Minister replied that, We appear to have a scenario of a Ministry of “the Ministry of Defence uses biofuels for road transport where Defence watching the results of the experience of EU legislation obliges manufacturers to include a percentage of other countries in using biofuels in military ships and biofuels in the fuel they produce. The use of biofuels for marine aircraft, and a defence equipment and support fuel and aviation use is governed by the requirements and approvals of team that is seeking to understand the most recent the department’s equipment manufacturers. The Ministry of Defence is encouraging these manufacturers to work towards adopting research and how it might apply to the Ministry of biofuels in the future”. Defence fuel requirements in future. On top of that, we are told that the Ministry of Defence uses biofuels I hope the Minister will be able to say some more for road transport only in so far as there is a requirement today on exactly what form that encouragement from arising from EU legislation and that for marine and the Government is taking. aviation use the Ministry of Defence encourages The answers given during discussion of the Oral manufacturers to work towards adopting biofuels in Question at the end of March could be interpreted as future. That does not present a picture of a Ministry meaning that the encouragement was pretty peripheral. of Defence that is exactly pushing the issue. Is that on The Minister said, grounds of cost or the impact on the efficiency of military operations? What is the attitude of the “the MoD uses biofuels for road transport where EU regulations oblige fuel manufacturers to include them, and only for that”.— ministry’s equipment manufacturers towards using [Official Report, 31/3/14; col. 742.]” biofuels in future? What is their response to the encouragement from the Ministry of Defence, which He also said that that use was limited and that the the Minister told us just over three months ago they Ministry of Defence was a very small user of biofuels. were receiving, and what form does that encouragement Those are hardly answers that suggested that the ministry’s take? I hope that the Minister will be able to provide equipment manufacturers would be being encouraged answers to these questions and other points raised in very much in this direction. this short debate, not least by my noble friend Lord Of course, biofuels are not the only means of Soley. reducing fossil fuel consumption and greenhouse gas emissions by the Ministry of Defence. The Minister 4.57 pm has previously referred to more energy-efficient use of fuel, alternative technology or equipment, reducing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry activity levels, using alternative fuels and interoperability of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): My Lords, I with our allies as other approaches to be adopted. thank the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for giving us the opportunity to debate what is an important issue, as As my noble friend Lord Soley said, United States he said. I have listened carefully to his speech and I Navy is looking to have by 2020 ships and aircraft will, of course, do my very best to address the points using some 50% biofuels from algae rather than from that he has raised. I may not have jotted down all his farm produce, with its implications for food production; questions, but I have got one or two and I shall and the United States Air Force is flying some high- certainly write to him with the answers and make sure performance jets on 50% biofuels. Other countries, that I include all other noble Lords who have taken including Italy and the Netherlands, are going down part in the debate. this road. Before I start, it would be helpful if I placed The Minister has previously said that the performance the issue of biofuels in its wider context. In 2011, the of biofuels by the United States and other countries in MoD published its sustainable development strategy, their naval vessels and aircraft is, which provides direction on what defence must do “being shared through equipment manufacturers and international to become increasingly sustainable during the period forums such as the Air and Space Interoperability Council”. 2011 to 2030. The strategy recognised that sustainable GC 21 Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels[7 JULY 2014] Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels GC 22 development offered a number of benefits to defence, from traditional or non-traditional sources—for use including one that is particularly pertinent to this across the whole of the MoD, including ships, aircraft, debate. To quote directly from the strategy: generators and fuel depots. “Less reliance on fossil fuels in theatre will reduce the amount This activity underlines our commitment to a of fuel that has to be transported to the front line; a costly, risky sustainable development strategy in order to achieve a and logistically resource-intensive activity that can undermine number of benefits for defence: utilising a varied operational continuity”. energy supply base; reducing exposure to price instabilities; I think that the noble Lord made that point. In increasing operational freedom; and reducing defence’s seeking to attain this benefit, the MoD has set the impact on the natural environment. The potential use Armed Forces a target to reduce fossil fuel consumption of biofuels is a part of this research programme. The for equipment and operations by 18% by 2020. I am noble Lord mentioned Admiral Morisetti’s visit to the sure that the noble Lord will welcome this, but I want United States and his recommendations. Again, I will to be clear that we will look to use the most appropriate look into that and write to the noble Lord. opportunities to meet this reduction and that the use of biofuels may be only one option to meet that target. Furthermore, I am pleased to report that in September It would be short-sighted to concentrate our resources this year we will create an MoD strategic fuel authority, on only one possible energy solution. which will be responsible for a fully co-ordinated approach to fuels assurance, governance, capability As I have frequently said in this House, the management, supply chain and requirements. It will Ministry of Defence already uses biofuels. They are provide a technical authority for defence fuels and used for road transport where EU legislation obliges engage with other government departments, industry, manufacturers to include a percentage of biofuels in NATO and key allies. It will also identify research and the fuel they produce. I think that was my original development activities to support the extended use of Answer to the noble Lord’s Oral Question. I add that alternative fuels by the MoD. I hope the noble Lord is the Defence Infrastructure Organisation is also happy to hear that. I can, of course, supply him with looking at the application of biofuels in heating further information about what we are planning. I am systems. Biofuels for marine and aviation use is a sure that the Committee will welcome this initiative. I more complicated issue and is governed by the hope I have demonstrated the MoD’s clear commitment requirements and approvals of the Ministry of to researching the application of alternative fuels in Defence’s equipment manufacturers. the defence environment. The potential benefits are The noble Lord has today and previously given a huge. It is crucial that the MoD stays at the forefront number of examples of what other countries are reported of these developments, and I am confident that it will. to be doing to increase the use of biofuels in both I mentioned the noble Lord’s questions and undertook ships and aircraft. The results of the performance of to answer them. My noble friend Lord Palmer asked these fuels are shared through equipment manufacturers whether the MoD had any contact with Defra or any and international forums such as the Air and Space interested body about whether the use of biofuels Interoperability Council. The Ministry of Defence’s affects food crops. He asked if the use of biofuels Defence Equipment and Support fuel team ensures increases the cost of food. I am aware of the concerns that it stays up to date with this research, and I am not about using biofuels and the impact on food production. sure that the position in other countries, as described The MoD does not consult directly with Defra on this by the noble Lord, is quite as positive as he suggests. issue, but there are cross-government discussions on The use of algae-based fuel by the United States Air the use of biofuels and sustainability in general. The Force, for instance, is proving to be more difficult than MoD engages with the Department of Energy and originally envisaged, particularly with regard to quality Climate Change on increasing renewables on the defence control and the consequent risk to airworthiness. For estate. this reason the USAF is proceeding with caution with My noble friend asked whether the MoD uses the use of biofuels. Moreover, I understand that the biofuels other than for road transport. The MoD uses USAF is now focusing its attention on synthetic fuel biofuels for road transport where EU regulations oblige as the alternative fuel of choice. fuel manufacturers to include them—and only for The noble Lord mentioned an Italian ship. I will that. However, the Defence Equipment and Support look into that as I am very interested in what he said, fuel team regularly engages with manufacturers to and I will write to him on that. There are also other understand the latest research and how it may apply to well documented problems in using biofuels, such as the MoD. The new defence strategic fuel authority will the impact of biofuel production on agriculture and also identify research and development activities to forestry, although I acknowledge that what have been support the extended use of alternative fuels by the termed “advanced biofuels”, such as those based on Ministry of Defence. algae, do not compete with those activities. My noble friend asked about the use of biofuels by The introduction of a new technology is never an the Joint Strike Fighter and in the Queen Elizabeth-class easy ride; there will always be problems to overcome, aircraft carriers. There are no current plans to use and I do not want to give the impression that the MoD biofuels in the Joint Strike Fighter or the Queen is dismissive or complacent about the potential benefits Elizabeth-class aircraft carriers. Further research is of biofuels: far from it. The Defence Science and being undertaken for their use in aircraft, learning Technology Laboratory, on behalf of the MoD, has a from the US lead in this area and obtaining gearing resilience research programme that is actively researching from international collaboration via NATO working alternative fuels—that is, fuels derived partly or wholly groups. The Defence Science and Technology Laboratory, GC 23 Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels[LORDS] Trade Unions GC 24

[LORD ASTOR OF HEVER] career. Long before I was in the Labour Party, I was an in partnership with the DE&S defence airworthiness active trade unionist. One thing that I learnt in my team and the Royal Navy’s 1710 Naval Air Squadron, branch, incidentally, was that the Conservative Party is conducting materiels compatibility testing using was not the enemy. There was only one enemy, and synthetic fuel kindly supplied by the United States. that was the Trots—sorry, the Trotskyites, I should say, for Members on this side who are not familiar Lord Soley: The aircraft carriers will be with us for with internecine politics on the left. many decades. Is it not incumbent on us at this stage Many people are surprised, but the average trade to do what other countries are doing and make them unionist today is a woman around 45 years of age who biofuel-capable or mixed fuel-capable? We are building is in white collar employment and has never been on two brand new aircraft carriers, so why are we not strike in her life. Len McCluskey, the general secretary doing that? of Unite, recently said at a press lunch in the other place that fewer than half of his members voted Lord Astor of Hever: This is one of the areas that Labour. Much evidence collected by the Conservative the organisation I mentioned will look into. Clearly Central Office shows that over 30% of trade unionists the noble Lord raises a good point. It would be very vote Conservative. I recall that after the 1983 election unwise for us not to consider it down the road. The the general secretary of my own union, AUEW-TASS, Armed Forces have a target to reduce fossil fuel told me that a majority of our members had voted consumption in equipment and operations by 18% by Conservative. If you take account of all those who, 2020. like almost one-third of UK citizens, do not vote at all My noble friend also asked if I can comment on in general elections, it is no longer possible to typecast studies showing that using land for energy crops is trade unionists as being indelibly wedded to any one detrimental to food production and forestry. I am particular party. aware of the concerns about the use of biofuels on The noble Lord, Lord Monks, referred last week in agriculture and forests but, as my noble friend said, a debate to the constructive way in which unions faced this is really the responsibility of Defra. I shall need to up to difficult decisions during the recession in order consult government colleagues and will ensure that my to preserve jobs and capacity. Noble Lords will also noble friend receives a letter on this point. I will copy probably have heard of the scheme known as Union other noble Lords in on that. Learn, started by the last Labour Government and My noble friend asked if the EU missed an opportunity continued by this Government. This partnership between in 2013 by failing to agree a cap on the use of biofuels. employers and unions currently has 3,636 Union Learn I shall again need to consult government colleagues representatives, all active trade unionists and trained and will ensure that my noble friend receives a letter through the TUC, who supported 219,091 learners in on that point, too. 2013-14. Of these, 14% were learners on English and The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked several questions. maths—basic literacy—25% on ICT courses and 29% I will have to write to him. One question was on what on further professional development. What they had we are doing beyond road transport, but I cannot read in common was that these were all of benefit to the the writing here. The Defence Science and Technology employee and the employer, and were almost all Laboratory has a resilience research programme that undertaken in premises provided by the employer. is actively researching alternative fuels for use across Employers benefit from a literate and trained workforce, the whole of the MoD—in ships, aircraft, generators but often it is only the trade union that is close enough and fuel depots. I hope I have answered some of the to the worker to motivate them to take part and to questions I was asked. I look forward to writing and study. answering all the questions in full. I was interested to see a recent scheme inaugurated by the Skills Minister, Matt Hancock, launched in his Trade Unions Newmarket constituency by the National Association Question for Short Debate of Stable Staff. This is the first in the racing industry, not one that you normally think of as being trade 5.10 pm union organised. Asked by Lord Balfe Pensions is another area where unions have played To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their a valuable role through the commission headed by the assessment of the contribution of trade unions to noble Baroness, Lady Drake, and in gaining acceptance the British economy. for the new pension scheme being rolled out, which needs to be improved considerably. However, we are Lord Balfe (Con): My Lords, I am pleased to have on the way. secured this debate, which I hope will enable the Health and safety at work has been shown by a positive contribution of trade unionists to the British government study to be enhanced in unionised workplaces. economy and the British way of life to be further A recent study identified a minimum saving of £181 million recognised. I declare an interest, as I have been a following a reduction in time lost due to occupational TUC-affiliated trade union member since I left school injuries and work-related illnesses. There is a long at the age of 16. I would probably not be here today catalogue of good outcomes from union activity. I were it not for the encouragement and help that I had welcome the recent tentative moves by the TUC towards as a young trade unionist in getting from secondary seeking places on company boards. We often rightly modern school through university and into a professional note the advantage that Germany has over us in GC 25 Trade Unions[7 JULY 2014] Trade Unions GC 26 manufacturing and industrial relations. Perhaps it is Finally, I would say to our Government that we now time to look at the role of responsible trade have to get a level playing field on this. I always unionism in Germany’s industrial and economic success despair, frankly, when I hear people say, “Unions— and where it can be replicated here. I am particularly Labour”. That is not the case; it is, “Unions—workers”. pleased that the TUC now seems to have changed its That is important. As Len McCluskey has demonstrated, position on worker directors, or at least to be in the trade union members, by joining, do not put themselves process of doing so. in a political box. That is probably not completely good news for the Opposition; but if they think about We cannot have a debate without asking the Minister it, it should be good news because unions have a something or other. Therefore, will the Minister request massive role to play in a successful Britain. They have his colleagues to stop the recent niggling attacks on a lot of useful and good things to say that people of all minor but important areas of trade union rights, parties and none should be listening to. Certainly in particularly in the Civil Service? I am sure many of us government we should be listening to and regarding would agree that facility time should be clearly identified them as partners in the joint enterprise of making in departmental budgets, but I ask that recognition Britain economically strong and great. It is in that should also be given to the ways in which facility time bipartisan sense that I move this Question for Short frequently—indeed, generally—helps departments and Debate. public bodies to attain their wider objectives. The deduction of union subscriptions is a long-standing concession, which incidentally was introduced when 5.20 pm I was at work and was then opposed by the left on Lord Monks (Lab): My Lords, I must declare a the ground that it would break the link between the current interest as president of the airline pilots’ union, subscriptions collector and the person on the floor. Of to which the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, glowingly referred course, a huge amount of time was lost because we in his interesting remarks. It is nice to know that he used to wander round during the afternoon and collect retains his beliefs that encouraged me to vote for him subs when we should have been working, so stopping on three separate occasions in his earlier political subs collection at source will not necessarily save any career. I wish him luck in his newish political party, in time, although it might delight a few people who like his evangelical campaign to persuade it that his views going for a walk in the afternoon. This is now being are desirable ones to follow. It will be an uphill task. I withdrawn in some departments. Frankly, it would be have just been speaking in proceedings on the Deregulation far more sensible to assess what time is being lost. If Bill and asking why unions are not included in a bit of the Government are really so hard up and wish to deregulation. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, will charge for collecting the money, I invite them to make remember there was a debate about assurers, in addition out an economic case and sit down and discuss it with to scrutineers and certification officers, and the red the unions and have a small deduction which, presumably, tape in which unions are being wrapped. In the news they would extend to things such as gym membership, this morning, we heard that quite a bit more could the charge for which I understand is also collected. If apparently be on the way as a result of a strike later this practice costs money, it should be addressed across this week. the board and should not be a matter of prejudice in Trade unions grew out of injustice. In the face of just one small area of life. rapid employment and industrial change, individual I firmly believe that we have to stop viewing unions workers without unique skills—not the stars but the as belonging to just one political family. They comprise ordinary—found themselves vulnerable to decisions bodies that do good for many people who are not in by employers and managers, and were in danger of any political party at all. It was many years after I being treated as commodities to be acquired and disposed joined the union that I joined a political party. As of as judged necessary. So the instinct to form a union I say, unions do a lot of good. There is clearly a need was powerful. They were founded in every industrialised for responsibility in trade unionism and we can all democracy in the world. Those two words are point to the person who lets the side down, so to important—“industrialised” and “democracy”. In that speak. However, we need to remember the huge number way, the employer was under pressure to listen to of people who keep Britain going and are legitimately workers and meet their concerns. The growth of unions members of trade unions—people such as pilots. Who was a feature of societies like our own, and we in this thinks of airline pilots in this connection? However, country led the way. It was an area of British leadership BALPA is a very highly organised union. Who thinks across the world that is much recognised among trade of dieticians in hospitals in this connection? I recently unions in the rest of the world. Their growth was hosted in this House a reception for the British Dietetic encouraged by alliances with socialists and, in some Association, which does an enormous amount of good countries, political parties founded their own unions. work advising people in an important part of the Socialists, and in some countries Catholics, were, in health service. There are numerous other examples. the main, instrumental in forming unions. Many unions feel that the Government could be slightly Today, when societies are less industrial and their more helpful towards them. They appreciate the contact economies more service-based, this has led some to and the common bodies run by the different departments, question whether unions are relevant or appropriate. but niggling issues such as that of facility time and In fact, in some US states in the middle and the south stopping the deduction of subs do not make sense to you could say that unions were almost an endangered us or to the unions concerned. They just add to the species. Unions are relevant in Britain; they are relevant burden that has been put on them. in 38% of the FTSE top 50 companies, which have GC 27 Trade Unions[LORDS] Trade Unions GC 28

[LORD MONKS] something big. I hope that our evangelist on the other collective bargaining with trade unions. In UK side of the Committee manages to take the hordes of manufacturing, to which the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, the Conservative Party along the same path that he is referred, unions cushioned employers through the treading. recession of 2008-09 by helping to preserve jobs, very often at the expense of a fall in living standards. The carnage of employment, however, was nothing like as 5.28 pm bad as we expected it to be, given the depth of that Lord Morris of Handsworth (Lab): My Lords, it is a recession. It was not as bad, for example, as the less great pleasure to follow my noble friend Lord Monks. severe recession we experienced in the early 1990s. Unlike him, I welcome the tone of the contribution of The two relevant unions are not in manufacturing, the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, to the debate. While I look but in services. The biggest employer of unionised forward to the Government’s response, it might help if labour in the country is Tesco. To this day, the big I remind the Committee of one or two landmarks in supermarkets, security companies and banks are the development of contemporary trade unionism. unionised. Of course, they are relevant in public services. I was proud to be a member of and then to lead I should mention the strikes that are due to take place a union whose general secretary in 1940 left his office later this week to remind the Government that change in Transport House and walked into Downing Street should be negotiated, not imposed. It is important for to join the Churchill Government as the Minister of public sector staff morale that unions should be recognised Labour. That general secretary was Ernest Bevin. So properly and dealt with in a respectful manner, not in if we are talking about trade union contribution to the rather careless, take-it-or-leave-it, way that is being the economy, we should pause here and pay tribute displayed at the moment. to the Bevin boys. I am pleased to say that it was a Unions are relevant to all those in insecure, low-paid Labour Government under Prime Minister Brown occupations and to people who are subject to zero-hour that gave due recognition to the contribution that the contracts. There has been an increase in self-employment, Bevin boys made to the war effort. Ernest Bevin’s with 40% of the new jobs that have been created since achievement on his return to Government in 1945 was 2010 being on a self-employed basis. We know that not a major contribution to the development of the United all of them are budding entrepreneurs. Many people Nations as we know it today. But that was his political are taking self-employment because it is the only thing role. His industrial role as the then Foreign Secretary they can get, with the employer stepping neatly away was to establish the International Labour Organization, from PAYE tax, national insurance contributions, based in Geneva. Lest we forget, as Foreign Secretary pensions, employment rights and so on. Workers today he was present when the State of Israel was born. As are still vulnerable, just as they were in the early we speak, the Israeli trade union, Histadrut, remains a industrialised societies. It seems to me that although significant contributor to the development of that the social protections of the welfare state are much country. better, the instinct for unionisation remains great. I It is to the trade unions’ contribution to our economy think that it should be public policy to encourage the that the noble Lord’s question is directed. In my day, renaissance of trade unions. Collective bargaining should along with my noble friend Lord Monks and many be seen as a way of checking the excesses of people at others, we changed both the social and economic the top and boosting the position of people at the agenda of the workplace from politics to partnership. bottom. It can narrow the gap between the haves and We developed an agenda for both social and economic the have-nots. The companies that are aware of their change. We campaigned for partnership with employers obligations to their workforces—unions tend to ensure and the wider community. We built an agenda for the that—are the ones which are more likely to do the workplace based on better health and safety, training right thing rather than the wrong thing. If we are and skills, investment in people, export and productivity. going to tackle inequality in our society, which even Together, we saw ourselves, certainly within the context the IMF has mentioned, stronger unions are a crucial of the TUC, as ambassadors for social change. Our part of that process. agenda for social change was led by the pursuance of Any new settlement must involve progressive and anti-discrimination laws, health and safety, employment responsible trade unionism that is committed to high protection, skills improvement and—above all— productivity, performance and long-termism. It must partnership at work. ensure that the benefits of growth are more fairly The trade union agenda today is about investment. distributed than is the case at present. My watchwords For example, I am proud of the contribution that are “co-operation”, “respect”, “professionalism” and workers make to the success of the Jaguar Land Rover treating people as you yourself would like to be treated. partnership. I am proud of the contribution made by I look to the other side of the North Sea for exemplars, Bombardier, the train-building company in Derby— as did the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, in respect of worker another great success. Frankly, anyone who asks the directors in Germany. In terms of collective bargaining question about the trade union contribution really and the worker voice in how companies run themselves, needs to look no further than at the partnerships that as well as the approach to building skills over time and have developed. The days of industrial disputes are giving people ladders to climb, economies from Finland almost extinct within the context of day-to-day debate. all the way round to Flanders seem to be able to Day in, day out, I know that management and unions achieve that. The crucial role played by trade unions in sit down to discuss the issues and challenges of the our society needs to be recognised properly, and I day. These are productivity, training and skills, hope very much that this debate will be the start of apprenticeships, investment and export opportunities. GC 29 Trade Unions[7 JULY 2014] Trade Unions GC 30

That is the modern, contemporary workplace agenda. who had himself presented the awards in a previous What we need is support from government for that year. I believe that it is incumbent on us all to do agenda. In today’s world, the company ambassadors everything possible to encourage responsibility in all include the trade unions. I spent more time in Japan of those who work for the future of our great country. seeking to persuade the Toyota motor company to Whether they are those in positions of managerial come to Derby than any Cabinet Minister I know. authority, or those who are working with their hands Yes, there are challenges ahead—zero-hour contracts, as well as their heads, responsibility and partnership for example. I must ask the Government: what steps are surely the key words. are being taken to give justice to the thousands of I have been fortunate enough in recent weeks to construction workers blacklisted by the Consulting initiate two debates in your Lordships’ House. One Association? That is a must-have for social justice to was on the subject of craft apprenticeships, and the be done. I feel a great sense of gratitude to have been other was on citizenship. I want to see the day when supported by the trade union movement. Today, the every one of our young people leaving school goes trade union movement, with co-operation, is not the through the sort of citizenship ceremony that those problem; it is very much part of the solution. who are becoming British citizens and subjects go through as recognition of their responsibilities and their rights. I believe that the trade union movement 5.34 pm can play a significant part in encouraging that sort of Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, it is a great pleasure responsible citizenship because those responsibilities to be able to follow two such distinguished trade interact and work together. unionists, both of whom epitomise what my noble I also believe that there is no group of organisations friend Lord Balfe was talking about in his opening better able to promote true and proper craft speech. They epitomise responsible trade unionism. I apprenticeships than our trade unions. I see an expanding cannot claim, like my noble friend Lord Balfe, ever to role for them in that context in the years ahead. I have been a member of the Labour Party, but I have deplore the yah-boo politics that occasionally still always had a great respect for the history of the disfigure the other place and paint people into different Labour Party and, in particular, for those Christian corners because if we do not work together in partnership socialists who, in a dignified and responsible manner in this country whatever our background, ethnicity or in the nineteenth century, gave the working man—it religious beliefs, we will not be able to prosper as we was mostly the working man in those days—a voice. I should and truly inherit the legacy of the past created honour that, and I believe that our country has received by men and women who had responsibility and an enormous contribution from those who have served partnership as their watchwords. in the Labour Party and in the trade union movement, One of the winners of the award for responsible although I rejoice in the fact—enunciated and underlined capitalism was Sir Charlie Mayfield of the John Lewis by my noble friend Lord Balfe—that one does not Partnership. There is no better example of true now talk of a trade unionist automatically being a responsibility and involving all those who have a role member of a particular political party. in the organisation concerned than the John Lewis The underlying theme of this debate is partnership. Partnership. May that be a role model for us all in the We cannot have true and lasting prosperity in our years ahead. I have enormous confidence in the country without a real and continuing partnership future of this country, but that confidence could so “from two sides of industry”. I do not like that phrase, easily be undermined if we saw a resurgence of I would rather say “from all of those who are committed small-minded industrial cold war rhetoric which to the commercial and industrial development of our could do no one any good at all as we move through great country”. I have been involved, for the last 12 or the 21st century. 13 years, with an award for responsible capitalism. It I applaud my noble friend for introducing this came out of the magazine First. Way back in the late subject. I apologise for my slightly random remarks. I 1990s, I had a series of discussions with the chairman do not write speeches, but I feel very passionate about of that company, Mr Rupert Goodman, and Lord this and I very much hope that those outside who read Dahrendorf. We decided that we wished to challenge this debate will feel, as the noble Lord, Lord Monks, the captains of industry to emulate the Robert Owens said, somewhat inspired by it. and the Cadburys of the past and practise true responsible capitalism. Responsible capitalism means not only a commitment to a profitable enterprise—it clearly means 5.42 pm that—but recognition of the needs and aspirations of Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde (Lab): My Lords, those who work, and of the environment in which they I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, for introducing work. this debate and for the tone that he used. Like him, I Way back in 2000, we were able to persuade the joined a trade union before I joined the Labour Party. then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr Gordon Brown, I am still a member of a trade union and always will to present the first annual award for responsible capitalism. be. I have been a member for more than 50 years. In Year in and year out since then we have continued to fact, the union I was fortunate enough to join is more do that. Sadly, since then, Lord Dahrendorf has died. than 200 years old. Its originating members were He was one of the most truly remarkable men who deported to Australia for having the audacity to break have ever sat in your Lordships’ House. He was replaced the law to try to form a trade union. That is the DNA as chairman of the panel of judges by the noble and that ran through the union that I joined. The union learned Lord, Lord Woolf, the former Chief Justice, has had a lot of changes. GC 31 Trade Unions[LORDS] Trade Unions GC 32

[BARONESS DEAN OF THORNTON-LE-FYLDE] not making a profit. Profit is a good word; it is how it I currently chair the employee share ownership is used that matters, and how we concentrate what we scheme of NATS. It has been interesting to see how are doing in the UK to build on our economic recovery. that has worked well within the company. At the time The question that I pose in this private debate of the part-privatisation of the organisation in 2001, a about how we work together in Britain—because it shadow share price was established which I think was will not receive publicity—is how trade unions, companies 20p. It was just before the bombing of the twin towers and government can make sure that we have economic and the company was then trading almost illegally, success, taking the leaf out of great competitors, Germany, with 126% gearing. Since then it has been interesting and the Scandinavian countries. I see that even in to see how we have substantially trade union-organised America, which is not known for its pro-trade union employees who are also shareholders in the company. line, trade unions are growing in strength. In Britain, It works well. The share price is now more than £4 a too, a number of trade unions are growing in numbers. share; and those employees are benefiting from that. It is still an anachronism for an individual employee to So, in the right structure and context, I support the be faced with a professional employer and to have to employee share ownership schemes to which the noble deal with that employer on their own behalf. Collectivism Lord, Lord Balfe, referred. When we moved from free is important, whether it is a small company or a large shares to part-free, part-buy shares, more than 80% of one. It would be much more profitable for the nation—I employees in the company bought shares. That is do not mean just in money terms but in our economy partnership working. The company has a policy of and social well-being—if we concentrated on that. It is joint partnership working. That cannot be repeated therefore with some deep concern, which I am sure is enough because the company had its most successful shared by the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, that I saw the financial year last year. Having been a totally nationalised clear briefing this weekend, and the reporting in the company, it is now part government owned, part privately press today, in the FT and the other newspapers, that owned. It is held up worldwide as being an icon of the Conservative Party intends to have in its manifesto professionalism and good quality. So the noble Lord, certain requirements on trade unions with regard to Lord Balfe, is absolutely right when he refers to the strikes and pre-strike ballots. I would welcome the fact that trade unions are part of solving the economic Minister’s comments on that in his reply. The union issue, not part of the problem. that I came from never had a dispute without having a Every organisation and structure, I would dare say ballot—and that has to be the case. It is something even the Conservative Party or any political party, has that I have always agreed with; it was something which its own issues of one kind or another. I shall come I was brought up with in my union. back to those shortly. I referred to my original trade It is reported that there will be a requirement for union links with the union of which I am still very 50% of the employees covered to have voted. Just proud to be a member, although it has been amalgamated imagine how requiring that kind of level for elections almost out of existence: I am now a member of the would transpose itself to our democracy. That would same trade union as a number of noble Lords in this be just unacceptable. It will be an adversarial debate. It Room. When you look back at history—and the noble has to be. Rather than the idea of almost going on to Lord, Lord Monks, rightly referred to the economic the front foot of aggression with the Government not and social implications—you can see that trade unions wishing to negotiate and consult, partnership would are not just part of the economy but part of the serve our country better than having these kinds of overall quality of democracy within a nation. The briefings and leaks. This would be legislating for the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, referred to Germany, in which small areas of industrial relations problems that still trade union structures were set up by the TUC after exist. I do not deny there are some. They might even be the Second World War. It is very much part of that tiny and geographically placed for a number of reasons. engine of success, on the boards of companies and Instead, concentrate on the nation as a whole. The elsewhere, so it is not even an issue. nation as a whole has a darn good record in both this economic recovery, which my noble friend Lord Monks The issue over trade unionism in Britain is like the referred to, and the strike record. I thank the noble issue of class and the great divide that we have—there Lord, Lord Balfe, for this debate. It might give one or is no need for it, and has not been a need for it. What two of us the courage to come back to this issue in the we need in the country is the partnership work—and if months ahead because it is a debate which needs to be there is one word on which we are all united in this aired. We are indebted to the noble Lord. I ask the debate, it is “partnership”. Look at Tata and the Minister, who I know is a coalition Minister, to address success that it has made—it is trade union organised. those questions and put on record where the Conservative Look at BAE Systems, which is fully trade unionised. Party stands. Some months ago, I attended a meeting in the House of Commons where the company and trade unions were alongside each other, talking about how important 5.51 pm was the success of that company, the investment that Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, like had taken place and the skills. There is a very highly other noble Lords who have spoken, I thank the noble skilled requirement in the company, as there is in Tata Lord, Lord Balfe, for putting this Question down for and a number of other companies, Bombardier included, debate today. Like my noble friend Lord Monks, I to which my noble friend referred. People were then voted for the noble Lord on many occasions when he arguing for the well-being of the company. Why? was a Labour Member of the European Parliament, When I was a trade union official, I never took any and I wish him well in his new endeavours in his new satisfaction out of dealing with a company that was party. GC 33 Trade Unions[7 JULY 2014] Trade Unions GC 34

I declare an interest as a member of the GMB and struggle to see any difference they have made or any would remind the Committee that I have been a trade help they have given anybody. I am sorry to hear union member since I left school. I joined USDAW reports of further legislation in the pipeline, and I am and the Co-op at around the same time—I do not sure the Minister will deal with that in his response. know which one was first—when I started work in the retail sector. I am now the president of the Society of As I have said, trade unions have a proud record of Chiropodists and Podiatrists, which is a very small campaigning on a wide variety of issues. Let us take specialist trade union working in the NHS. the area of health and safety. Where we have a unionised workforce the rate of injuries is much lower. That can I join my noble friend Lord Morris of Handsworth be attributed to the management and safety reps sitting in his remarks about Ernest Bevin. I pay tribute to the down together to deal with issues and find solutions. I Bevin boys and the role they played in the war effort. recall going on a parliamentary visit to the Olympic This has been an interesting debate with a very Park just before the Games started. Sir John Armitt, experienced range of speakers. I was particularly pleased who was then the chair of the Olympic Delivery that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, spoke because it Authority, proudly told us that health and safety was is important that Members from the Government important to the authority, the companies and the Benches should speak in these debates. He was right in unions involved, and indeed to the workforce. The his comments about partnership, and we all want to worst accident on the entire site over the duration of see that. the whole project had been one broken leg. Contrast that with the agriculture industry, which is not heavily I think it is fair to say that the relationship between unionised. People work in small groups on small farms. the Conservative Party and the trade unions has often On average over the past 10 years, one person has been been fraught. We can go back and look at the killed every single week as a direct result of their work. Governments led by William Pitt the Younger and the It is by far the most dangerous industry in the UK. introduction of the Combination Acts in 1799 and Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Popat, can tell the 1800 and see that it is nothing new. The biggest recent Committee what the Government intend to do to deal change with respect to the relationship between the with health and safety in the agricultural sector. unions and the Government came in the 1980s and 1990s in the Governments of Margaret Thatcher My noble friend Lord Morris said that there are and John Major. Trade unions were not viewed as numerous examples of unions working together with allies or as organisations the Government could work employers to achieve the best for the business. I recall with or wanted to work with. That is a matter of regret speaking last year to a senior manager in British Gas as unions have an important role to play in representing who told me that the company would not be as productive their members. They seek to improve terms and conditions as it is without the support and help of GMB. The through bargaining with employers, but they are also union is an integral part of the business. It has a direct the biggest voluntary sector organisation in the country. interest in ensuring that the business succeeds because They have 6.2 million members from all walks of its members’ livelihoods depend on it. My noble friend life. They have an important role to play in civil Lady Dean made similar remarks, which I fully support. society. They campaign for social justice at home and Let us look at the car manufacturing industry in the abroad. They have joined forces with a wide variety of UK. It has been transformed, with thousands of jobs organisations and have a proud record of achievements across many companies employing people who are that have made our country a better place in which to building quality products. Many years ago I had the live. privilege of going to the Toyota plant in Burnaston The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, made some points with my noble friend Lord Prescott. It is an excellent regarding which political parties trade union members example of unions and employers working together, support. Like any other group of people, support for and I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Morris for particular political parties among trade union members securing that inward investment into the UK. will ebb and flow due to a range of circumstances, and The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and other noble Lords trade union members will vote for all sorts of parties. mentioned the benefits of union learning and other Most trade unions are not affiliated to the Labour training schemes. The trade unions have a proud record Party and never have been. Major changes to the of supporting and assisting members by providing relationship between affiliated unions and the party education for them. Trade unions have also been were agreed earlier this year. When the Minister replies, campaigning for better deals for part-time workers perhaps he will tell the Committee why the Government and were instrumental in setting up the Pension Protection do not always see trade unions as organisations with Fund. The noble Lord, Lord Balfe, referred to the which they can discuss things and work more closely. positive contribution trade unions have made to the If it is because they see them as the arm of a political provision of pensions for UK workers, and I strongly opponent, that is a most regrettable place to be and is agree with that. I also agree with the comments of the incorrect, but it may explain some of the actions they noble Lord, Lord Balfe, about facility time and the have taken. attacks on check-off. They are very silly and will This Government, although it is a coalition, is a benefit no one. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Conservative-led coalition. During the passage of the Popat, can respond to that, hopefully in a positive way. lobbying Bill in the previous Session, proposals were My noble friend Lord Monks talked about respect brought in which affected trade unions, as my noble and treating other people as you would want to be friend Lord Monks said. They were supported by treated yourself. It is really important that negotiations both coalition parties. Like my noble friends, I still and discussions are always held in that way. GC 35 Trade Unions[LORDS] Trade Unions GC 36

[LORD KENNEDY OF SOUTHWARK] debate is an excellent chance to remind us all of those In conclusion, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, facts. I am afraid that we do not have recent data on for initiating this debate. I wish him well in his endeavours. the impacts that I have mentioned. The industrial Like my noble friend Lady Dean, I hope that this is relations climate in the UK is generally positive; industrial the first of many debates on these issues. I think also action is at an historic low and has been relatively that we would all agree that in the noble Lord, Lord stable for more than 20 years. Cormack, the noble Lord has a very welcome ally in I will now talk about the wider benefits of trade the Conservative Party. unions, which a number of noble Lords mentioned, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Morris. Noble Lords 5.57 pm quite rightly said that the trade union movement is very relevant today. Trade unions play a role that is Lord Popat (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to my increasingly important to the public and to those noble friend Lord Balfe for initiating this important young people who will form our future workforce. It is debate. On listening to him, it is clear that he has a about making sure that business is a benefit to society detailed knowledge of the operation and activities of and reflects the society we live in. My noble friend trade unions, and of the impact they have on our Lord Cormack mentioned responsibility and partnership. economy. This is an interesting debate for me to respond Unions help to maintain the debate about diversity in to because we have reached a cross-party agreement in the workplace, about how disability should not be the Committee today on the important role played by shunned and about how improving skills can make a the trade unions in terms of both the country and the real difference to the poor and vulnerable. All this economy. However, it is worth reminding ourselves makes our economy perform better for all our citizens. that in 2013 the UK experienced its fastest growth Quite rightly, the noble Lord, Lord Monks, mentioned since 2007 and is currently the fastest growing major the benefits of economic growth, which must be distributed developed economy. While I am not implying that this while we are doing well in this country. Hence, we are can be attributed to trade unions, it is relevant to note looking at the minimum wage and have increased the that the union movement engaged positively during rate above inflation in the past few years. the recent economic downturn while also maintaining its traditions of fairness and equality. Trade union members also participate in the many voluntary roles that help create cohesive communities. My noble friend Lord Balfe opened the debate by Unions are also at the forefront of developing greener talking about the positive contribution made by trade workplaces by working in co-operation with employers unions. A recent ONS business survey tells us that who want to make their enterprise environmentally trade unions contributed £443 million in gross value and energy effective. added to the UK economy in 2012. I do not know about their working patterns or which parties The Union Learning Fund, which is administered members vote for, and I do not think that my office by Union Learn, the learning and skills organisation would have that information either. However, I will of the TUC, is an excellent example of how unions present some facts about trade unions that were prepared help their members and their employers. Union Learning by the Department of Trade and Industry in 2007. Fund projects are primarily targeted at workers, many Representation in the workplace reduces the dismissal of whom have low skills, including literacy and numeracy rate by 5% to 10%, thus reducing annual redundancy needs—the very people who may be reluctant, or costs by £107 million to £213 million. Representation may not know how, to take advantage of the various reduces the voluntary exit rate in a workplace by development opportunities available to them. The history 5% to 10%, saving employers between £72 million and of unions providing learning for their members is a £143 million a year. long one. Some colleges were established for the education The impact of workplace representatives in reducing of working people in the late 19th century, closely dismissal rates also reduced the number of employment followed by the founding of the Workers’ Educational tribunal claims against workplaces, thereby providing Association. The opening of the TUC training college annual savings to business and the Exchequer of between after the Second World War gave a big boost to the £22 million and £43 million. Health and safety training of trade union representatives. representatives in the workplace reduce injury rates I will now talk about trade union membership. It is for employees by between 10% and 15%, providing interesting to note that permanent employees are more overall annual economic benefits of between £136 million likely than those in temporary jobs to be union members and £371 million, and reduce incidence of work-related in all categories of employment. Full-time employees illness by between 1% and 3%, providing an overall are also more likely than those in part-time work to be annual economic benefit of between £45 million and union members, the only exceptions for full-time £207 million. The annual economic benefit of training employees are among professional occupations and and learning generated through trade union learning those employed in the wholesale and retail trades. It representatives was estimated at between £94 million may also surprise noble Lords to hear that middle-income and £156 million, due to increased productivity. earners are more likely to be trade union members We can see from those figures the huge benefits that than either high or low-paid employees. About 39% of employers receive by having their members represented employees who earn between £500 and £999 per week by trade unions. While it is unfortunate that no current are members of a trade union compared with 21% of data are available, and these data are now seven years employees earning £1,000 or more. The proportion of old, they show the scale of the positive effect that employees earning less than £250 who are trade union trade unions have on our economy and how this members is only about 14%. Employees in professional GC 37 Trade Unions[7 JULY 2014] Trade Unions GC 38 occupations are also more likely to be trade union Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I am sorry to interrupt members, and we know that the wage premium is but the Minister is not going to be able to respond to higher for females who are trade union members at all the questions that I asked in the next couple of about 30%, compared with 7% for males. minutes. Therefore, will he respond to those he can and give a commitment to write to noble Lords on the I now move on to some of the tangible benefits that points he will not be able to cover and place a copy of unions bring to the workplaces in our economy. This the letter in the Library of the House? was again mentioned by my noble friend Lord Balfe. These benefits fall in three main areas: helping people participate in the labour market by ensuring fair standards Lord Popat: I will certainly do that and place a copy of employment; resolution of workplace disputes, and in the Library. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, raised helping deliver necessary changes in the workplace the very important issue of blacklisting trade unionists. to enhance business performance. The noble Lords, The Government are clear that blacklisting is an Lord Morris and Lord Kennedy, and my noble friend unacceptable and illegal practice. We take any allegation Lord Balfe mentioned the important area of the health of this practice very seriously. Indeed, the Secretary of and safety environment. Unions health and safety State has asked anyone who has information about representatives help reduce the number of accidents in this practice still going on to get in touch with the the workplace, hence reducing the number of hours relevant authorities. The Employment Relations Act lost to accidents, and improve the working environment 1999 (Blacklists) Regulations 2010 make it unlawful. so that employees feel safer and happier, which in turn The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked whether the reduces the number of staff absences due to illness. Government can work with the trade unions. Of course, we can work with the trade unions. The Government Unions also play a major role in establishing the believe that trade unions have a key role to play in business environment in the UK, especially when it resolving workplace disputes. Representation in the comes to negotiations on EU legislation. An example workplace reduces voluntary exit by employees by of this is the TUC pursuit of the interests of UK about 5% to 10%, which helps business retain key working people through the European Trade Union skills. The noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also asked Confederation, the social dialogue with European about the health and safety performance of the agricultural employers and the Economic and Social Committee, sector. I have covered health and safety, but I do not and through representations to the institutions of have agriculture on my brief and I will have to write to the EU—the European Parliament, the European my noble Lord. Commission, the Council of Ministers and the British The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, mentioned workers’ Government. Such actions give more confidence to participation, and having share ownership schemes. I people, especially if they are low skilled, to participate believe there are many companies that have share in the labour market. This is turn provides a greater ownership schemes. This is up to individual companies pool of talent for business to choose from. and employees to agree upon. My brief does not say Equally, the role that unions play in resolving workplace what government policy is on this, but I would be disputes, be that at an individual or group level, is not happy to write to the Baroness. to be underestimated. This is more than a reduction in industrial action that we have seen over the years; it is Baroness Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde: Will the Minister about being proactive and working in partnerships also kindly undertake to respond to my question with employers to make sure that a business can about the plans which have been reported in the press change and adapt to customer needs, or respond to on further trade union legislation? Would he kindly competition in the market in the most effective way. reply to me in writing if he does not have this information Recent figures show that 76% of union members today? resolve their issues before taking formal action via a tribunal, whereas this figure is 69% for non-union Lord Popat: Certainly the noble Baroness is right. I members. Trade union members’ claims are less likely read in the Times this morning about possible legislation. to go through to tribunal than those of non-members, This is not the policy of the Government. It may the with 13% of members’ claims ending in a tribunal Conservative Party policy, but I do not know what its compared with 21% for non-members. The tribunal manifesto will be in 2015. I will certainly be writing figures also show that only 28% of claims are from to you. trade union members. A number of issues have been raised which I shall Lord Balfe: Will the letter be sent to all of the deal with very briefly due to time constraints. My Members who have participated in the debate, please? noble friend Lord Balfe referred to the deduction of union subscriptions from employees’ salaries. This is Lord Popat: I will certainly do that my Lord, and for employers and unions to agree. Some unions feel I will put a copy in the Library for other Peers to that direct debit is more favourable. The Government look at. support unions’ right to collect the subscriptions as they see fit. Committee adjourned at 6.11 pm.

WS 1 Written Statements[7 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 2

on the need to cut red tape, simplify the rules and Written Statements provide much needed legal certainty. The Commission made an accompanying statement committing to review Monday 7 July 2014 the legislative framework for the fruit and vegetable sector by 31st December 2018. Correction to Lords Debate CAP reform implementation Statement Ministers highlighted CAP implementation decisions they had taken and some of the accompanying challenges The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home faced by national administrations and farmers. The Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): On June 12th I UK paper requesting a pragmatic and sensible repeated an Answer given earlier that day in the House interpretation of the new CAP regulations, particularly of Commons to an Urgent Question tabled there on with regard to the greening requirements, was referred passports, the Answer being given by my rt hon Friend to and supported by a range of other Member States. the Home Secretary. In the debate that followed, at Informal Lunch – US Secretary of Agriculture column 510 of Hansard, I said that in both March and EU Ministers attended an informal lunch with US May, Her Majesty’s Passport Office had recorded the Secretary of Agriculture, Tom Vilsack, to discuss progress highest level of applications received for any month on the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership over the past 12 years. (TTIP). I regret that this was incorrect. I should have said Any other business that in March and May, Her Majesty’s Passport Office had recorded the highest level of applications received Country of origin labelling for meat for any month over the past 8 years although, since The Commission updated Member States on its January, they have been dealing with a higher demand exchanges with the European Parliament (EP) following for passports than for the same period over the last the latter’s request for more detailed labelling of the 12 years. country of birth on fresh meat. All those who spoke stressed that the current rules had been carefully negotiated EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council and could not now be changed. Statement Severe weather in Slovakia Slovakia raised the impact of recent storms on its The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department forests and suggested they would call on the EU for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) Solidarity Fund. (Con): My Hon Friend the Parliamentary Under Secretary Athens conference on scientific support to agriculture of State (George Eustice) has today made the following The Presidency reported on a recent conference in statement. Athens on scientific support to agriculture. I represented the UK at the EU Agriculture and National Emissions Ceiling Directive Fisheries Council on 16 and 17 June. Alun Davies AM and Richard Lochhead MSP were also present for 12 Member States supported Hungary’s request parts of the meeting. that Agriculture Ministers be involved in negotiations Monday 16 June on the National Emissions Ceiling Directive given the potential impact on agriculture of restrictions on ammonia Dairy sector and methane emissions. The Commission presented its report on the Tuesday 17 June development of the market for dairy. This was followed by an exchange of views on the draft Council Conclusions “Omnibus” Regulation on the Implementation of the on the future of the dairy sector. The main point for Landing Obligation discussion was the proposal, led by Austria, Germany, The Council discussed the latest position on the the Netherlands, Ireland and Denmark, to relax quotas ‘Omnibus’ Regulation, which amends existing technical for 2014-15. After a lengthy debate and failing to rules with a view to facilitating the introduction of the achieve a qualified majority in favour of changing the landing obligation from 1 January 2015. This will now current quotas, the Presidency concluded that the go forward for discussion with the European Parliament, Council Conclusions could not be adopted at this to reach an agreement by the end of the year, ahead of Council. the first year of the landing obligation. School Schemes Implementation of the Common Fisheries Policy: The Council noted the Presidency’s progress report Discard Plans on the Commission’s legislative proposals for reform The Commission welcomed the progress made on of the school milk and fruit schemes without discussion. the development of discard plans under the new The implementation of the provisions concerning regionalisation process, a new way of working that producer organisations, operational funds and operational decentralises decision making and brings it closer to programmes in the fruit and vegetables sector since the the fisheries affected. I intervened to reaffirm support 2007 reform for the introduction of the landing obligation and the The Council adopted Conclusions on the Commission’s regionalisation process, highlighting the work being report on the operation of the Fruit and Vegetable done to tailor the first discard plans to the specific Producer Organisation scheme, including a clear message needs of the pelagic fisheries in each region. WS 3 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 4

Any other business The second formal session concerned the fight against Management of Capelin – TAC for 2014 jihadist terrorism and radicalisation with a focus on co-operation with Northern Africa, the Sahel and The Commission reported they had now received Middle Eastern countries. Discussion centred on the an offer of capelin from Greenland and will bring problems caused by conflicts in these regions and the forward an amendment to the TAC and Quota regulation issues caused by foreign fighters travelling to join these as soon as possible to provide a Total Allowable Catch conflicts then returning to EU Member States. Delegates for this stock. noted the evolution of the terrorist threat and how it Antimicrobial resistance in animal husbandry had been shaped by these factors. The importance of Sweden, supported by Denmark, called on the information sharing and the role of the EU Passenger Commission to provide an update to the 2011 action Name Record (PNR) directive in this was agreed by plan on the responsible use of antimicrobials in animal all. I stressed the need for the wording of the Draft husbandry, claiming that antibiotic resistance contributes Directive to be robust and it was agreed that bilateral to approximately 25,000 deaths per year and 1.2 billion cooperation was essential in the interim. euro costs to healthcare services. Commissioner Borg The third formal session related to the fight against stated that this is a high priority for the Commission. drug trafficking in the Atlantic. The Presidency noted A five year roadmap has been published and a full that while this was a problem for the Western hemisphere progress report will be published this year. generally, it was a particular concern for Spain. A Animal, plant and control package: smarter rules for number of delegates stressed the point that the use safer food and classification of development funds must be The Presidency described progress made on the considered to address these problems at their root. package of measures. The discussion focused in particular The US said they were working with a number of on import controls with divergent views amongst Ministers countries on this issue and were happy to continue to on the need for a risk based ‘open’system or precautionary do so and to share the experience and knowledge they ‘closed’ system. I was robust in calling for the outcome have. I raised the point that the money generated by to be a genuine simplification with fewer powers delegated the international drug trade helped to support terrorism to the Commission and respect for subsidiarity in and that practical cooperation to address this was relation to fees and charging of businesses. therefore essential. The discussion at the formal dinner on 25 June Plant Reproductive Material focused on the fight against irregular immigration in I specifically supported the presidency paper and Europe. I stressed the need for action in the countries its pragmatic approach. Some ministers took the of origin and for Member States to fulfil their opportunity to highlight particular changes they wanted responsibilities for effective asylum processing and to the Commission’s proposal. border controls. Italy made the point that their Mare Nostrum programme could not remain in place indefinitely and gave their view that it should be G6 replaced by a European equivalent. Concerns were Statement voiced however that, while the programme had undoubted humanitarian benefits, it nevertheless acted as a pull factor for migrants to the region. Doubts were also The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home expressed by some about the idea of Frontex undertaking Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My rt hon a more operational role in the Mediterranean. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department The formal lunch on 26 June was an opportunity to (Theresa May) has today made the following Written discuss relations between the EU and the US. The Ministerial Statement: conversation was positive and members agreed the The informal G6 group of Interior Ministers from need for the EU and US to cooperate closely in the six largest European Union countries, plus operational joint initiatives. Specific measures such as representatives from the United States of America, the PNR Agreement, the Agreement on processing the European Commission and FRONTEX, held its and transfer of financial data messaging relating to most recent meeting in Barcelona on 25 and 26 June the Terrorist Finance Tracking Programme (TFTP), 2014. and the EUROPOL-US Agreement were seen to be The summit was chaired by the Spanish Interior helpful tools to strengthen operational cooperation in Minister Jorge Fernádez Díaz and I represented the common fields of interest. United Kingdom. The other participating States were The next G6 meeting will take place in France but represented by Thomas De Maizière (Germany), Angelino the date has not yet been confirmed Alfano (Italy), and Bernard Cazeneuve (France). Poland was represented at official level. James Cole (the Deputy Housing: Complaints US Attorney General), Alejandro Mayorkas (US Deputy Statement Secretary of Homeland Security) Cecilia Malmstrom (European Commissioner for Home Affairs) and Gil The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Arias (Executive Director of FRONTEX) attended as for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell guests. of Beeston) (Con): My hon Friend the Parliamentary The first formal session (attended by the G6 members Under Secretary of State for Communities and Local only) was an analysis of the evolution of G6. It was Government (Kris Hopkins) has made the following agreed to keep the G6 in its present shape and format. Written Ministerial Statement. WS 5 Written Statements[7 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 6

The Communities and Local Government Select Mental Health Act 1983 Committee report into the Regulation of Social Housing Statement in England included a recommendation for the Government, working with the social housing sector, to make sure that tenants of social housing are aware of the correct process to make a complaint about their The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department landlord. The Committee pointed out in its report that of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My hon Friend the numerous complaints are misdirected to the Homes Minister of State, Department of Health (Norman and Communities Agency and this can be frustrating Lamb) has made the following written ministerial for tenants as well as a waste of resources for the statement. Agency. We have today launched a consultation on proposed To respond to this recommendation, I am, today, changes to the Code of Practice: Mental Health Act writing to David Orr, the Chief Executive of the 1983. Following this consultation, we will lay before National Housing Federation, Grainia Long, the Chief Parliament a revised code by the end of 2014. It is Executive of the Chartered Institute of Housing, and intended that this will become effective from 1 April the Chairman of the Local Government Association 2015. to ask for their thoughts and ideas on how we can Since the code was last published in 2008, there ensure that tenants are aware of the correct process have been substantial changes and updates in legislation, when making a complaint and what work they have policy, case law, and professional practice. A revised done, or are planning to do, with their members on code needs to reflect and embed developments this important subject. since 2008 in areas including the use of restrictive My ministerial colleague, the Parliamentary Under interventions; use of police powers to detain people in Secretary of State (Stephen Williams), has been working places of safety; and the use of community treatment with the National Tenant Organisations and others to orders. promote the role that social tenants can play in helping In publishing Transforming care: A national response to shape their housing services. He will be writing to to Winterbourne View Hospital and Closing the Gap: landlords shortly to publicise our forthcoming guide Priorities for Essential Change in Mental Health we “Tenants Leading Change”, which will explain the committed to improving mental health services. Closing role that tenant panels can play. He will be asking the Gap sets out 25 priority actions to improve the landlords to promote and disseminate this to their provision of mental health care, promote recovery and tenants and reminding landlords of the need to make the experience of patients, their families and carers. it clear how their tenants can raise a complaint. Transforming Care also committed the Department of In 2011 the Government made a change in the way Health to review and consult on a revised Code to that social housing tenants could make a complaint address the need to improve the quality of care received against their landlords. For the first time MPs, councillors by patients detained under the Mental Health Act and designated tenant panels were given a formal, 1983. statutory role in the complaints process - local problems The code is an important lever for delivering these are best resolved locally by the people who live and changes. Health care and social care professionals work in those neighbourhoods. Whereas the vast majority consult the code routinely to inform their practice, of tenants have a good relationship with their landlords safeguard patients’ rights and ensure compliance with and never need to make a formal complaint about the the law. The code is also used by patients who are service they receive, for those who do though it is detained or otherwise subject to the Act, and their important that they can raise that complaint with the families, carers and advocates. right person and that it can be dealt with as quickly as We are committed to ensuring that high quality possible. care is always provided for patients detained and treated The key stages in the complaint process are: under the Act. Care should always promote recovery, be of the shortest duration, be the least restrictive Step1-Inthefirst instance a tenant should make a option, keep the patient and other people safe, and formal complaint to their landlord. ensure value for money for the taxpayer. Step2-Ifthecomplaint cannot be resolved, a The consultation sets out proposed changes to the tenant can contact a designated person that is code but does not include any changes to either primary either their MP, local councillor or designated or secondary legislation. The draft code includes new tenant panel. The designated person can take up chapters on: the care programme approach; equality, the case to resolve locally or, if necessary, refer the human rights and parity of esteem; mental capacity case to the Housing Ombudsman. and deprivation of liberty; and victims. Step3-Ifneither of the previous two steps have The revised code will apply to the use of the Act in managed to resolve the complaint a tenant can England. contact the Housing Ombudsman directly. Copies of Stronger Code: Better Care –Consultation The Housing Ombudsman’s website gives a clear on proposed changes to the Code of Practice: Mental and easy to understand explanation of the process and Health Act 1983 and Mental Health Act 1983: Draft the Homes and Communities Agency’s on-line guidance Code of Practice for Consultation have been placed in explains its role and gives advice on where and how to the Library. Copies of the consultation documents are make a complaint . The Gov.uk website also sets out available to hon Members from the Vote Office and to how to make a complaint. noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. WS 7 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 8

Railways: High Speed 2 Phase Two published in March 2013. The Strategy sets out the Statement Government’s plan to make it easier and more convenient for people to use greener transport modes for their The Minister of State, Department for Transport everyday journeys by ensuring they are better connected. (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Right Honourable friend, This is the second progress report. The first Door to the Secretary of State for Transport (Patrick McLoughlin), Door Action Plan was published in December 2013. has made the following Ministerial Statement: This further update identifies progress towards making Improvements to transport connectivity between this a reality. By considering the whole journey and the northern cities, including through HS2, through improving integration between the different transport east-west high speed rail links and road improvements, modes, people will have more choice to use public would be a key driver in realising the potential for the transport and leave the car at home. cities of the North to become a “Northern Powerhouse” As part of delivering this strategy, I am making an for the UK’s economy. HS2 is a vital part of our plans additional £15 million capital funding available in to deliver significant transport infrastructure that will 2015/16 for improving the integration between rail and not only maximise benefits across the UK, in terms of cycle journeys. This extends the £14.5 million programme journey times and connectivity, but will help balance of improvements already delivered by the Government the UK’s economy, drive regional regeneration, support which has been the major enabler in doubling the job creation and deliver substantial economic growth. number of cycle parking spaces at stations during the We are firmly and fully committed to our plans for term of this Government. A further announcement a high speed rail network connecting Birmingham, will be made on projects to be taken forward once a Manchester and Leeds as part of our plans for HS2 robust bidding process has been completed. Phase Two, on which we consulted earlier this year. This Action Plan identifies the work we have done In his report, “HS2 Plus”, Sir David Higgins set out in the last 14 months to improve integration between his recommendations that the Government should sustainable transport modes. It also ensures that people undertake further work on bringing the benefits to the recognise that this area of work remains a priority for north sooner, improving city centre to city centre and government. It focuses on the four core areas featured east-west connectivity and enhancing integration with in the Strategy: our existing network. In response to his report five cities – Hull, Leeds, • accurate, accessible and reliable information Liverpool, Manchester and Sheffield – are already about different transport options for their journey engaged in a programme of work looking at northern • convenient and affordable tickets, for an entire connectivity. I am looking forward to seeing the outputs journey from this work. I am also very grateful for the responses to the HS2 Phase Two consultation, which we will • regular and straightforward connections at all report on in the autumn. stages of the journey and between different modes The Government has now asked Sir David to produce of transport ambitious proposals for connecting the great northern • safe and comfortable transport facilities cities. This work will look at how to bring the benefits of high speed rail to the north more quickly, as well as Examples include the £70m ITSO on Prestige (IoP) initial proposals for faster east-west connections – project that has upgraded London’s Oyster system to including options on route, timescales and cost – by also accept ITSO smart ticketing and bank issued the time of the Autumn Statement later this year. contactless payment cards. This is now bearing fruit; In completing this work Sir David will discuss Southern Railway launched smart card ticketing into emerging issues with leaders from the Midlands and London in December 2013 and will be followed by c2c the North, and will work with Network Rail to ensure and South West Trains later this year. this is part of a comprehensive plan for the entire The Department has reached agreement with TfL railway network in the north of the country, as well as and the train operators who currently accept Oyster to liaising with the Highways Agency to ensure it is fully allow passengers to use their contactless payment integrated with the strategic long term plans for the cards as an alternative later this year. national road network, currently being developed. Separately we are continuing to work on improved rail In addition, the Department has made available an links to Scotland. additional £100 million funding to extend the Access HS2 is a key part of this Government’s growth for All programme from 2015 until 2019 and deliver strategy and I am keen to maximise its benefits as we improvements at 42 more stations. Also, continuing look to deliver economic growth in the north and with the successful re-launch of the franchising programme across the country more generally. we now require a Franchise Operator to consider improvements to the door to door journey experience Transport: Door to Door Action Plan for its customers, in line with our Door to Door Strategy. Statement I will be placing a copy of the update to the Door to The Minister of State, Department for Transport Door Action Plan in the libraries of both Houses. It (Baroness Kramer) (LD): I am today publishing a will also be published on the department’s website at Door to Door Action Plan following on from the Door https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/door- to Door Strategy which the Department for Transport to-door-action-plan WS 9 Written Statements[7 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 10

UK-Caribbean Ministerial Forum On energy, we agreed to work together to explore Statement the potential of natural gas and renewable sources as an alternative to the current oil import dependence in the Caribbean, to work with the private sector to share The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities experiences and technical expertise of smart grids and and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth distribution systems, and to enhance dialogue on utility Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My right Honourable reform. Friend,theSecretaryof StateforForeignandCommonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague), has made the following On education and skills, we agreed to build partnerships written Ministerial statement: between UK and Caribbean educational institutions, to bring together young leaders from academia, business I wish to update the House on the 8th biennial and civil society, and to work together to boost skills UK-Caribbean Ministerial Forum, which took place development programmes. in London from 16-17 June 2014. To enhance our mutual security, we discussed The Forum brought together foreign ministers and information and asset sharing agreements, including representatives of the countries of the Caribbean sharing data on criminal activities, fingerprints and Community (CARICOM), the Dominican Republic associated information, and financial and tax data. In and the CARICOM Secretariat. The Premiers of the addition, we shared views on building effective extradition UK’s Caribbean overseas territories of Anguilla, the systems to ensure that perpetrators of criminal activity British Virgin Islands, and the Turks and Caicos Islands cannot evade justice. participated as observers. Together we committed to further strengthening the partnership between the UK Representatives of the UK and the Caribbean also and the Caribbean, and agreed on a plan of action to stated our shared commitment to promoting global take forward co-operation on areas of joint interest. sustainable development, and agreed to work together The Forum focussed on promoting prosperity and to secure a single compelling framework and a set of economic resilience in both the Caribbean and the post-2015 goals centred on eradicating extreme poverty. United Kingdom. It included sessions on economic We also discussed current foreign policy challenges development, energy, education and security, as well and reaffirmed our commitment to the peaceful resolution as discussions on foreign policy issues. In addition, of conflict, consistent with the principles and purposes and in recognition of the importance of the commercial of the UN Charter, including the right to self relationship between the UK and the Caribbean, where determination for all peoples. our bilateral trade is already around £2 billion a year, The UK-Caribbean Ministerial Forum is part of delegates attended a UK-Caribbean Trade and Investment how we protect and promote our national interests, Forum, a private sector event focussed on boosting strengthen our economy and make the most of the business-to-business links. opportunities of the 21st century. It represents an At the conclusion of the Forum, Ministers agreed a important element of UK-Caribbean relations. I will communiqué summarising our discussions and setting place in the library of the House a copy of the agreed out follow-up activity for the UK and Caribbean to text of the communiqué from the UK-Caribbean pursue in partnership. Ministerial Forum.

WA 1 Written Answers[7 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 2 Written Answers Bovine Tuberculosis Question Monday 7 July 2014 Asked by The Duke of Montrose To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to report on the effect of the current Academies badger culling trials on other wildlife and the general Question ecology in those areas. [HL621] Asked by Lord Storey The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) they will take to ensure that local authorities prevent (Con): Defra has published the Food and Environment free schools and academies from adopting unfair Research Agency’sevaluation of the potential consequences and arbitrary admissions procedures. [HL722] for wildlife of a badger control policy in England. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools wildlife-of-a-badger-control-policy-in-england- (Lord Nash) (Con): Academy schools, including free evaluation-of-the-potential-consequences schools, are required by their funding agreements to We are not planning any further work on this at the comply with the School Admissions Code when setting present time. their admission arrangements. The Code is clear that the criteria they use to decide the allocation of school places must be ‘fair, clear and objective’. Central African Republic Anyone who considers that these schools’ admission Questions arrangements are unlawful or do not comply with the Asked by Lord Chidgey Code can object to the Schools Adjudicator. An adjudicator’s determination of an objection is binding To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, and enforceable on the school concerned. alongside the current international intervention in The Code requires local authorities to object to any the Central African Republic (CAR), they are ready non-compliant admission arrangements. to assist in the growth of economic activity and in building an effective public governance system that serves all CAR citizens, both Muslim and Christian. [HL653] Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants) Act 2004 The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Questions and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Together with other Asked by Baroness Doocey partners, our immediate priorities are to help de-escalate To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the levels of violence and ensure life-saving assistance times the Crown Prosecution Service has made a is delivered to those in acute need. At the same time, charging decision not to proceed on the use of we are working with international organisations such sections 4(1), 4(2), and 4(3) of the Asylum and as the World Bank and the UN so that a longer-term Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act strategy of economic recovery and effective governance 2004 in each of the past five years. [HL617] is developed by these organisations to address the needs of all communities in the Central African Republic. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many times the Crown Prosecution Service has made a Asked by Lord Chidgey charging decision not to proceed on the use of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they sections 4(1), 4(2), and 4(3) of the Asylum and will assist in the implementation of the Kimberley Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act Process Certification Scheme for diamonds coming 2004 in each of the past five years where the victim from the Central African Republic. [HL655] was under 18 at the time of commission of the offence. [HL618] Baroness Warsi: The Government implements its commitments under the Kimberley Process Certification The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace Scheme (KPCS) in full. In order to maintain the of Tankerness) (LD): The Crown Prosecution Service integrity of the KPCS, the Central African Republic (CPS) does not hold figures centrally for the number (CAR) was temporarily suspended from the KPCS in of cases where a decision was made not to proceed May 2013, preventing the possible introduction of under sections 4(1), 4(2), and 4(3) of the Asylum and rough diamonds produced in CAR into the legitimate Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.), including diamond trade. This suspension was upheld in June cases where the victim was under 18 at the time of 2014. It is likely to remain in place until the security commission of the offence. To obtain such information situation in CAR improves significantly and the would require a manual examination of records which government of CAR is able to re-establish compliance would incur a disproportionate cost. with the KPCS. WA 3 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 4

Asked by Lord Chidgey Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The Government wants to recruit and retain the best civil servants, on To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they the basis of merit, regardless of who they are and what have any plans to deploy Stabilisation Unit experts their background is. The process allows decisions to be to work as counterparts to the Central African made based on an individual’s skills and experience, Republic’s civil servants, to assist in financial, taxation meeting the requirements of the equality legislation. and budgeting reform in that country. [HL656] Claims Management Services Baroness Warsi: The UK will continue to work with Question and through international organisations, such as the World Bank and the UN, to ensure a coherent strategy Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town for the Central African Republic, including on public financial management and public sector reform. We To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they would be happy to consider the deployment of will publish their response to the consultation on Stabilisation Unit experts to support the work of these the framework to enable complaints about claims international organisations, as necessary. management companies to be heard by the Legal Services Ombudsman, as provided for in the Financial Asked by Lord Chidgey Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013. [HL445] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they have any plans to deploy the Stabilisation Unit to The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord assist the G5 countries in providing capacity-building Faulks) (Con): The Financial Services (Banking Reform) assistance to civil society organisations so that they Act 2013 provides the necessary enabling powers to can monitor public sector financial management in put in place the funding arrangements for the Legal the Central African Republic. [HL657] Ombudsman to deal with complaints against claims management companies. These provisions were commenced on 21 March 2014. They include a power Baroness Warsi: The UK will continue to work with for the Lord Chancellor to make Regulations to charge and through international organisations, such as the fees to recover the costs he has incurred in meeting the World Bank and the UN, to ensure a coherent strategy expenditure of the Legal Ombudsman in relation to for the Central African Republic, including on public claims management complaints. financial management and public sector reform. We The Government consultation on the proposed would be happy to consider the deployment of structure of the Lord Chancellor’s cost recovery fee Stabilisation Unit experts to support the work of these ended on 6 June and the responses are being analysed. international organisations, as necessary. Once the fee structure is finalised, the Fee Regulations Asked by Lord Chidgey will be laid in Parliament for approval and the consultation response will be published at that time. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to consider (1) supporting the European Union and United Nations Development Programme Coroners and Justice Act 2009 in creating an operational and democratic justice Questions system of police and judiciary in the Central African Asked by Baroness Doocey Republic, and (2) providing technical assistance to the police force, prosecution service and judiciary To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many in that country. [HL658] times the Crown Prosecution Service has made a charging decision not to proceed on the use of section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 in Baroness Warsi: We continue to support the UN each of the last five years. [HL615] and other major international partners, to develop a coherent and effective strategy to improve security To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and justice in the Central African Republic. We will times the Crown Prosecution Service has made a consider what support the UK might be able to provide charging decision not to proceed on the use of on the basis of this strategy. section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 in each of the last five years where the victim was under 18 at the time of commission of the offence. [HL616] Civil Servants: Recruitment Question The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon of Tankerness) (LD): The Crown Prosecution Service does not hold figures centrally for the number of cases To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to where a decision was made not to charge under section 71 the Written Answer by Lord Wallace of Saltaire on of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, including those 18 June (WA 75), what impact they consider that cases where the victim was under 18 at the time of equality legislation has had on their policy of recruiting commission of the offence. To obtain such information the best civil servants regardless of background. would require a manual examination of records which [HL543] would incur a disproportionate cost. WA 5 Written Answers[7 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 6

Asked by Baroness Doocey instability. We have, for example, recently: opened an embassy in Mogadishu to support our work on stability To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and security in Somalia; brought together key players prosecutions have taken place under section 71 of on Nigeria to secure much needed assistance to tackle the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 in each of the the threat from Boko Haram; and continued our work past five years. [HL620] to stop terrorists getting their hands on money to fund their activities through leading efforts on disrupting Lord Wallace of Tankerness: The Crown Prosecution financial flows from sources such as ‘Kidnap for Ransom’. Service (CPS) holds figures of the number of offences Asked by Lord Noon charged under section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 that reached a first hearing in a magistrates’ To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the court and data for the past three financial years is government of Iraq has accepted their offer to send contained in the following table. No charges are recorded counter-terrorism officials from the Foreign and before financial year 2011/2012. Commonwealth Office to assist against the current jihadi insurgency; if so how many personnel will be 2011- 2012- 2013- sent to Iraq; and how the recent decision to cut the 2012 2013 2014 number of counter-terrorism personnel in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office will affect future Coroners Knowingly 10 20 3 [HL665] and Justice hold another deployments of that nature. Act 2009 person in {71(1)(a) & slavery / Baroness Warsi: We are currently reviewing a number (3)} servitude of specific counter-terrorism options to assist the Iraqi Coroners Knowingly 5015government. However, any assistance can only be truly and Justice require Act 2009 another person effective alongside an urgent show of unity by Iraq’s {71(1)(b) & to perform leaders. The Secretary of State for Foreign and (3)} forced Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the /compulsory Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), reinforced labour this message when he met with leaders across Iraq’s communities during his visit to Baghdad and Erbil at CPS offence based data is not held by defendant or the end of June. outcome so it is not possible to ascertain the number The Counter-Terrorism Department is one of the of individual prosecutions that concluded. largest policy departments in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO). We constantly monitor and review our projects, programmes and diplomatic Counter-terrorism engagement, as our part of the wider Government Questions efforts on counter-terrorism, to ensure our resources Asked by Lord Noon are having the maximum possible impact in the right places as the global security environment changes. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of proposed cuts in counter-terrorism funding and personnel in the Foreign Debts and Commonwealth Office. [HL664] Question Asked by Lord Birt The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth ratio of the aggregated value of sovereign, corporate Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Foreign and and personal debt to gross domestic product is CommonwealthOffice(FCO)CounterTerrorismProgramme higher in the United Kingdom than in other leading Fund (CTPF) is the main fund for terrorism-related economies. [HL686] assistance to foreign countries used by the FCO Counter Terrorism Department. This is complemented by other The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord budgets used for counter-terrorism related activities Deighton) (Con): The aggregate value of general andthetri-departmental(FCO,DepartmentforInternational government, non-financial corporations and household Development and Ministry of Defence) Conflict Pool, sector debt (as a proportion of GDP) for all G7 as set out in the Written Ministerial Statement on countries are shown below: 24 June 2014, Official Report, column WS107-108. We constantly monitor and review our projects, programmes Debt as a proportion of GDP in and diplomatic engagement as our part of the wider Country 2012 Government efforts on counter-terrorism, to ensure our resources are having the maximum possible impact Canada 347% in the right places as the global security environment France 335% changes. It is not the case that important activities have Germany 248% ceased or are now under-funded. Italy 329% Japan 476% The FCO’s work on counter-terrorism goes well UK 309% beyond CTPF - it is at the heart of our diplomacy US 320% across our overseas network, particularly in areas of WA 7 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 8

Egypt criminal sanctions relating to specific financial activities. Question This decision does not entail the transferring of any additional powers or areas of competency to the European Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Union. As this is the case, neither parliamentary consent nor a referendum is required. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the position of free media in The written ministerial statement is available at this web address: Egypt. [HL679] http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ cm201415/cmhansrd/cm140619/wmstext/ The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities 140619m0001. htm#14061945000004 and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The British Government is appalled by the sentences given to Egyptian and Fracking international journalists in Cairo on 23 June, including Question to two British nationals being tried in absentia. The Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my Right Hon. Friend the Member for Richmond To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment (Yorks) (Mr Hague), made a statement on 23 June they have made of the impact on NATO–Russian expressing his concerns and urging the Egyptian government relations of the comments attributed to Anders to demonstrate its commitment to freedom of expression Fogh Rasmussen in The Guardian about Russian by reviewing this case as a matter of urgency. involvement in anti-fracking protests; and whether The Egyptian Ambassador, Ashraf el-Kholy, was they have asked him to produce evidence that Russia summoned to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is funding British non-governmental organisations (FCO) on 23 June. FCO Political Director, Simon opposed to fracking in the United Kingdom. Gass, told the Egyptian Ambassador that the Government [HL542] was deeply concerned by the verdicts, along with the procedural shortcomings seen during the trials. Our The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Ambassador to Egypt raised this issue in Cairo with and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth the Egyptian Ministry of Foreign Affairs on 24 June. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Wehave made no assessment We will continue to monitor the situation of these of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) journalists very closely, and raise the issue with the Secretary General’s reported comments on Russian Egyptian authorities. The UK believes that a free and funding of British non-governmental organisations robust media is a bedrock of democracy. and anti-fracking protests. Wehave not requested evidence from NATO to substantiate these claims.

EU Justice and Home Affairs Grammar Schools Question Question Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Asked by Lord Storey To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans the Written Statement by Lord Deighton on 19 June they have for grammar schools to change their (WA 95), whether the decision to opt into the admissions procedures to increase the uptake of justice and home affairs provisions will transfer pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds. [HL723] additional powers to the European Union; and whether they consider that the decision requires The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for parliamentary consent and a referendum under the Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): The Government is committed provisions of the European Union Act 2011. to closing the attainment gap between disadvantaged [HL541] children and their peers. Grammar schools and the highest performing non-selective schools currently have The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord some of the lowest representations of children eligible Deighton) (Con): Under the European Union Act for free school meals in England. We want to encourage 2011, a referendum would be required before ministers all high performing schools, including grammar schools could support treaty change that led to a transfer of to do more to attract and support disadvantaged power or an area of competence from the UK to the children. EU. The Act also specifies a number of decisions that The Department for Education is working with the would also amount to a transfer of power or competence Grammar Schools Heads Association to develop a and so require a referendum. These include giving up programme to: certain vetoes, joining the euro or giving up border a. support those grammar schools that are academies controls. and that are considering giving admissions priority As detailed in the Written Ministerial Statement of to pupils eligible for free school meals; the 19th June on the UK’s opt in to the justice and b. introduce entrance tests that more accurately home affairs provisions of two EU regulation proposals, measure a child’s potential and thus avoid the need the Governments decision will commit authorities in for prior coaching; and the UK to enter into information sharing engagements c. work with local primary schools to raise standards with their counterparts in other member states on for deprived children and increase parental engagement. WA 9 Written Answers[7 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 10

High Speed 2 Railway Line The Six Monthly Reports to Parliament demonstrate Question our commitment to closely monitor Hong Kong’s development. The latest Six Monthly Report is due to Asked by Lord Berkeley be published in mid-July. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, under the exceptional hardship scheme for HS2 Phase One, how many applications to acquire properties have Human Trafficking: Prosecutions been (1) made, (2) refused, and (3) granted. [HL516] Question Asked by Baroness Doocey The Minister of State, Department for Transport To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The number of applications prosecutions have been double flagged by the Crown to acquire properties as at 1 June 2014 which had been Prosecution Service over the past three years using (1) made, (2) refused, and (3) granted under the the flag for monitoring human trafficking and the Exceptional Hardship Scheme for HS2 Phase One are flag for monitoring child abuse. [HL619] indicated in the table below:

Number of Applications 544 The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace received* of Tankerness) (LD): The Crown Prosecution Service Number of Applications 346 rejected identifies both human trafficking and child abuse cases Number of applications 146 by way of a database monitoring flag applied to the accepted electronic case record. * 24 applications were pending a decision and 28 applications The number of defendants prosecuted who were were withdrawn by the applicant. flagged for human trafficking offences and where the child abuse flag was applied are outlined in the table The information above is available on the HS2 Ltd below. During the past year there has been an increase website at the following link in the numbers of such cases investigated by law enforcement agencies and referred to the CPS for http://www.hs2.org.uk/developing-hs2/property/ prosecution. exceptional-hardship-scheme In addition, on 9 April 2014, the Government 2011-2012 2012-2013 2013-2014 announced a package of long-term discretionary property 91959 compensation measures for Phase One of HS2. The Express Purchase and Rent-back approach are available now and we intend to launch the Need to Sell and Voluntary Purchase schemes by the end of the year. Income Tax Question Asked by The Earl of Courtown Hong Kong Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much income tax was collected in the last financial year, Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth broken down by sector. [HL632] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the government The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord of China regarding the Basic Law and democratic Deighton) (Con): The latest available information on elections in Hong Kong. [HL675] the industry distribution of PAYE income tax deducted from pay is published here: The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/ and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth uploads/attachment_data/file/306815/table2-10- Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We maintain a good 0414.pdf dialogue both with the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region Government and the Chinese authorities, with whom we discuss Hong Kong regularly at senior levels. Inland Waterways We did so most recently during the UK-China Summit Questions in June, when the Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), and Premier Asked by Lord Fearn Li discussed prospects for universal suffrage in 2017, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their alongside a variety of other issues. During his visit to policy towards inland waterways and their contribution Beijing in May, the Minister of State for Foreign and to tourism. [HL726] Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire), met with Wang Guangya, To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Director of Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office to inland waterways are open to the general public; discuss the transition to universal suffrage, as well as and how access by ramblers to such waterways is Hong Kong’s continuing prosperity. facilitated. [HL727] WA 11 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 12

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Legal Aid Scheme for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) Question (Con): Canals and rivers are an important asset for tourism and recreation, which the Government aims Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill to protect and promote. According to The Association of Inland Navigation Authorities (AINA), in 2011 To ask Her Majesty’s Government in how many there were 873.8 million visits to waterways around cases the Legal Aid Agency granted funding for Britain, 23.4 million of which were to visit a specific legal representation (full legal aid certificates) in attraction. There were 293.2 million visits for leisure the discrimination category in each of the years walking and 234.5 million visits for dog walking, making (1) 2011–12, (2) 2012–13, and (3) 2013–14. [HL508] walking by far the most popular activity participated in. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord The majority of Britain’s waterways are managed Faulks) (Con): Discrimination only became an extant by the Canal and River Trust (CRT) which is funded category of law covered by the Civil Legal Aid Mandatory by Defra. One of the key objectives on which this Gateway following the introduction of the Legal Aid, funding depends is ensuring public access, including Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. for recreation and tourism. The land managed by the As such, the only figures available relate to the financial CRT includes 3148km of towpaths, all of which are year 2013/14 when 4 certificates for legal representation open to the public, and a number of monuments and funding were granted. However, discrimination cases historic sites including 5 UNESCO world heritage may not always be captured in this record as an sites. alleged contravention of the Equality Act can be recorded in other categories of law, for example, mental health. The Legal Aid Agency routinely publishes legal aid Interest Rates statistics; this information can be found using the link below: Question https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/legal- Asked by Lord Barnett aid-statistics-april-2013-to-march-2014 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions the Chancellor of the Exchequer has had with the Mass Media Governor of the Bank of England on possible Question increases in interest rates; and what was the outcome of those discussions. [HL639] Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of any improvement in the balance The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord and fairness of media reports of incidents of hate- Deighton) (Con): The UK’s monetary policy framework, motivated offences and of prejudice against religious set out in the Bank of England Act 1998, gives operational and ethnic groups since the Leveson report was responsibility for monetary policy to the independent published. [HL683] Monetary Policy Committee (MPC). The Chancellor of the Exchequer has frequent discussions with the Governor of the Bank of England on a wide range of Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): No such assessment issues on the UK economy. has been made. In the Royal Charter we have introduced a new system of independent press self-regulation that protects press freedom whilst offering real redress when mistakes are made. Importantly, the Government recognises the importance of a free press and does not Israel interfere with what it does and does not publish. Question Asked by Baroness Tonge Nigeria To ask Her Majesty’s Government what Questions representations they have made to the government Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead of Israel concerning its reported recent authorisation of the use of force during interrogations. [HL524] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures are in place to ensure that the support being given to the Nigerian authorities for defence and security The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities priorities is underpinned by human rights standards. and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth [HL666] Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Officials from our Embassy in Tel Aviv have raised this issue with the Israeli National The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Security Council. They denied that Israel used force and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth during interrogations as part of the operation to locate Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The Secretary of State the three kidnapped teenagers. for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. WA 13 Written Answers[7 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 14

Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), To ask Her Majesty’s Government what system made a statement about the Overseas Security and is in place between the Ministry of Justice and the Justice Assistance (OSJA) guidance on 15 December National Offender Management Service to monitor 2011. progress in implementing improvements identified Since this date all funding and assistance provided in reports of HM Inspector of Prisons. [HL582] by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to Nigeria, which falls under the criteria set out in OSJA guidance, The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord is examined in compliance with OSJA requirements. Faulks) (Con): HMP Winchester has improved its This includes strict stipulation on human rights standards performance since the last inspection, but the National and compliance. The OSJA process reflects the Offender Management Service (NOMS) accepts there determination of the British Government to ensure is more to do. NOMS will use the recommendations that such assistance is provided in a manner that from HM Inspectorate of Prisons’ (HMIP) report promotes, rather than undermines, human rights and published on 24 June to drive forward further democracy in Nigeria. improvements within the next 12 months. As with all Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead inspection reports, NOMS will now produce an action plan in response to the recommendations made in the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions report. they have had with the Nigerian authorities about I will therefore write to the noble Lord with details access for detainees to lawyers and to their families of the response to HMIP’s recommendations once the whilst they are in detention. [HL667] action plan has been sent to the Chief Inspector. The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) Baroness Warsi: The UK remains committed to carefully considers the findings of all HM Inspectorate supporting efforts to help enhance the effectiveness of Prisons (HMIP) reports. Action plans responding and accountability of the Nigerian police and judicial to the recommendations made in each report are system. We regularly raise human rights concerns, provided to HMIP within six months of publication. including access to lawyers, with senior members of NOMS Deputy Directors of Custody are then responsible the Nigerian government at State and Federal level for overseeing the progress of implementing accepted and will continue to do so. We raised specific concerns recommendations within the prisons in their region, on the treatment of detainees at military-run detention with heads of policy monitoring the progress of nationally centres at the UN Universal Periodic Review of Nigeria agreed actions. in Geneva on 22 October 2013. Probation Palestinians Question Question Asked by Lord Beecham Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action the Written Answer by Lords Faulks on 18 June they are taking to improve the availability of food (WA 71), how much of the 2014–15 probation in Gaza. [HL525] budget has been allocated to the provision of services to support the new operating model. [HL505] Baroness Northover (LD): The UK supports UN agencies and International NGOs get aid and goods The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord into Gaza through our support to the UN Access Faulks) (Con): The probation service, under the new Co-ordination Unit. We also help vulnerable families operating model from 1 June, continues to operate in to buy the food and basic items they need through line with the agreed probation service budget. This support to the World Food Programme in Gaza. budget includes provision for corporate services, Ultimately, however, the availability of food will only information technology, estates and community payback, change in a sustainable way through the easing of which continue to be provided centrally, as they were Israeli movement and access restrictions on Gaza. We up to 31 May. continue to press the Government of Israel, in close coordination with our EU partners, to ease these restrictions. South Sudan Question Prisons: Standards Asked by The Lord Bishop of Worcester Questions To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Asked by Lord Beecham they have made of the prevalence of sexual violence in the conflict in South Sudan; whether they are To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps planning to deploy suitable experts from the they are taking to correct failings at HMP Winchester Stabilisation Unit to strengthen and support efforts identified in reports from HM Inspectorate of in South Sudan to respond; and, if so, when. Prisons. [HL581] [HL528] WA 15 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 16

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities on human rights and reconciliation. The resolution and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth expresses serious concern at continuing reports of Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We are deeply concerned sexual and gender based violence. We continue to offer by reports of human rights violations and abuses in our full support to the Office of UN High Commissioner South Sudan, including the widespread use of sexual for Human Rights in establishing an international violence. We fully support the work of the Africa investigation as mandated by the UN Human Rights Union Commission of Inquiry and echo the call in the Council. recent UN Human Rights Council resolution for thorough and genuine investigations into all human rights violations Sudan and abuses and for the perpetrators to be brought to Question justice. Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead The UK is funding a project with non-governmental organisation Non Violent Peaceforce to establish women’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their protection teams in Northern Bahr El Ghazal. This response to reports that the government of Sudan project aims to tackle sexual violence in communities has reconstituted the Janjaweed militias and that affected by insecurity around the border with Sudan they are operating under its command and control. by establishing and training women’s peacekeeping [HL670] teams to work within communities. We continue to raise the issue of human rights, and of sexual violence The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities specifically, with South Sudanese Ministers. The and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): The latest report of the and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member UN Secretary General on Darfur states that the Sudanese for Boston and Skegness (Mr Simmonds), discussed government’s Rapid Support Forces (RSF), that use the issue with the Foreign Minister of South Sudan at similar tactics to militia groups previously armed by the Global Summit to End Sexual Violence in Conflict government known as Janjaweed, have been responsible on 11 June. Our Ambassador also raises these issues for widespread abuses against civilians, which include regularly with the Government of South Sudan. rape, looting and the burning of houses. The report also makes it clear that the armed opposition groups, There are currently no plans to send additional in particular the Sudanese Liberation Army Minni experts from the Stabilisation Unit to South Sudan. Minnawi faction, bear heavy responsibility for civilian However, we keep all such plans under constant review. displacement. We have made it clear to the Sudanese government in the strongest terms that such behaviour is wholly Sri Lanka unacceptable. On 7 April the Parliamentary Under- Question Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Baroness Tonge Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mr Simmonds), publicly condemned attacks To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps against civilians, and specifically raised the actions of they are taking to support reparations for victims the RSF with Sudanese Foreign Minister Karti on of conflict-related sexual violence in Sri Lanka. 28 April. [HL478] Terrorism: Northern Ireland The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Question and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Asked by Lord Laird Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Wewelcomed the February 2014 report of the UN High Commissioner for Human To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Rights on Sri Lanka and its recommendation that the paramilitary prisoners were released on licence after Sri Lankan government ‘establish a truth-seeking mechanism the Belfast Agreement of 1998. [HL636] and national reparations policy in accordance with The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales international standards as an integral part of a more Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): Northern Ireland comprehensive and inclusive approach to transitional Office officials are currently undertaking a consolidation justice’. exercise with officials in the Northern Ireland Prison As noted in the Chairman’s Summary of the Global Service to confirm the answer to this question. I will Summit on Ending Sexual Violence in Conflict held in write to the Noble Lord once this exercise has been London 11-13 June, and in line with the UN High completed. Commissioner’s recommendations, reparations are one of the most valuable ways of supporting survivors of Thames Tideway Tunnel sexual violence in conflict, often cited by victims and survivors of sexual violence as key to their recovery. Question The UK was a main co-sponsor of the UN Human Asked by Lord Berkeley Rights Council (UNHRC) resolution on Sri Lanka To ask Her Majesty’s Government, under the passed on 27 March 2014, which establishes an exceptional hardship scheme for the Thames Tideway international investigation into alleged violations and Tunnel, how many applications to acquire properties abuses of international law on both sides of the military have been (1) made, (2) refused, and (3) granted. conflict in Sri Lanka, in addition to calling for progress [HL515] WA 17 Written Answers[7 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 18

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Other financial costs would include expenses for for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) brochures, campaign events, and paying for the candidate’s (Con): Thames Water Utilities Ltd established the Thames campaign travel. Previous campaigns for similar bodies Tideway Tunnel Exceptional Hardship Procedure in have incurred costs of between £10,000 and £33,000. August 2011. Since then Thames Water has received Asked by Baroness Hodgson of Abinger requests for 19 application packs and nine of these have been returned as completed applications. Of these, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment five have been refused for not meeting the required they have made of the current membership of the criteria, three have been withdrawn by the applicant, Committee on the Elimination of all Forms of and one application is currently going through the Discrimination against Women; and which members process. and candidates for election in 2014 they consider to Thames Water’s Exceptional Hardship Procedure be able to represent United Kingdom interests. follows closely those schemes adopted by the Department [HL520] for Transport for major road and rail projects, such as Crossrail and HS2 which built on the experience from HS1. It is not a statutory requirement and it seeks to Baroness Northover: Assessments of the current balance the interests of Thames Water customers, who membership of and the candidates for election to would pay for the Thames Tideway Tunnel project the Committee on the Elimination of all Forms of through their wastewater bills, and those whose properties Discrimination against Women are made jointly by may be affected by the project. the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. UK Border Force All members and candidates for election to the Question Committee on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women are assessed against a Asked by Lord Eames number of criteria, including their moral standing, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the competence in the field, and ability to exercise their current numerical strength of the UK Border Force; functions independently of the government they have and whether they consider that the present strength been nominated by. Consideration is also given to fair is sufficient to meet the demands placed upon it. representation of geographical regions, gender, and [HL607] different legal systems. Candidates are elected by the 193 UN member states. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home HMG is confident that the members of the Committee Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): Border Force on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination has a full time equivalent workforce of 7,907 and we against Women are able to discharge their mandate. believe this is sufficient to meet demand.

UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women USA Questions Question Asked by Baroness Hodgson of Abinger Asked by Lord Judd To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action estimate of the financial and time costs of running they are taking to ensure that any extension of the an election campaign for a United Kingdom expert mutual defence agreement with the United States is candidate to be elected to the Committee on the designed to assist the fulfilment of the purposes of Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against the non-proliferation treaty and to fulfil the undertaking Womenand when that assessment was last undertaken. in that context given by the existing nuclear powers. [HL519] [HL648]

Baroness Northover (LD): The Government last undertook an assessment of the financial and time The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities costs of running an election campaign for an independent and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth UK expert to be elected to the Committee on the Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We are committed to Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against the goal of a world without nuclear weapons and Women in December 2013. firmly believe that the best way to achieve this is It was estimated at the time that the equivalent of through gradual disarmament negotiated through a 108 days of work would be needed to identify a step-by-step approach within the framework of the suitable candidate and support them throughout the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.The UK has a strong campaign process. This estimate included running a record on nuclear disarmament and continues to be at process to identify a suitable candidate and running a the forefront of international efforts to control proliferation, campaign to support the successful candidate. In addition, and to make progress towards multilateral nuclear financial costs would be incurred, including expenses disarmament. The UK-USA Mutual Defence Agreement for brochures, campaign events, and paying for the is, and will continue to be, in full compliance with our candidate’s campaign travel. obligations under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. WA 19 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 20

Uzbekistan and mental health needs of armed forces veterans by Question summer 2015. Health Education England are working with the Royal College of General Practitioners to Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead ensure that the learning is taken up and used to support the development of care and services to veterans. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether concerns about the use of torture have been raised in Uzbekistan NHS England is exploring how CCGs and other under the European Union Human Rights Dialogue; local networks can best support general practitioners and if so, when. [HL668] in using the available learning and developing the knowledge and skills needed to support this important group of patients who may have particular mental and The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities physical health needs. and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): Concerns about torture Health and social care is a devolved matter and the were raised in the last EU-Uzbekistan human rights responsibility of individual devolved administrations dialogue which took place in November 2013. Specifically, and therefore we cannot respond to this question in concerns were raised about reports of torture of detainees relation to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. and there was discussion focused on encouraging progress towards establishing a National Preventive Mechanism Veterans: Mental Health Services (NPM) on torture. Question The UK has significant concerns about the human rights situation in Uzbekistan, as reflected in the Foreign Asked by Lord Patel of Blackburn and Commonwealth Office’s annual human rights report. Torture is one of the issues which we continue to raise To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps both in multilateral contexts such as the EU Human they are taking to help war veterans with mental Rights Dialogue and through our bilateral contacts illness. [HL578] with the Government of Uzbekistan. I had wide ranging discussions, including on human rights, during my The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department recent visit to Uzbekistan in April, and more recently of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): All of the recommendations during a meeting in London with the Uzbek Ambassador put forward by the hon Member for South WestWiltshire here. Dr Andrew Murrison in his report on Armed Forces In a bilateral context, our Embassy in Tashkent and veterans’ mental health—‘Fighting Fit’—in 2010 funds a range of projects in support of good governance, have been implemented by the Department and the human rights and the development of civil society. In National Health Service in England in relation to relation to torture prevention, we have promoted British services for veterans and by the Ministry of Defence experience of criminal justice reform and have shared for serving personnel. UK expertise to support the development of Uzbekistan’s Funding of £7.2 million is providing 10 veteran NPM against torture. Our Embassy also contributes mental health teams across England. Each team provides to discussions between the Uzbek authorities and its mental health services that are specifically tailored to international partners to encourage criminal justice meet their local veteran population’s needs and reform. requirements. A National Veteran Mental Health Network has been established to identify and disseminate good practice across England and a national 24-hour veteran Veterans: Health Services mental health helpline has been put in place. Question An online, mental health well-being and counselling Asked by Lord Rogan service for Armed Forces, their families and veterans—the Big White Wall—has also been developed. Working To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to with the Royal College of General Practitioners we the remarks by Lord Astor of Hever on 23 June have put in place an e-learning training package for (HL Deb, col 1059), how many general practitioners general practitioners (GPs). Health Education England they plan to train to respond to the physical and has been mandated to provide training that will be mental health needs of veterans in (1) England, available from summer 2015 to ensure that there will (2) Wales, (3) Scotland, and (4) Northern Ireland. be a specialist GP in every local area trained in both [HL584] the physical and mental health needs of veterans. NHS England has commissioned Combat Stress to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department provide an acute Post Traumatic Stress Disorder services of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The NHS Mandate from for veterans. the Government to Health Education England includes an objective to raise awareness of psychological and physical issues which are commonly faced by veterans Viral Haemorrhagic Disease and their families and the resources which are available Question to help them. Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Health Education England are working to ensure that there is training available so that there can be a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what role specialist general practitioners in all 211 clinical they have in the programme to contain the spread commissioning groups (CCGs) trained in the physical of Ebola. [HL678] WA 21 Written Answers[7 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 22

Baroness Northover (LD): To date, the UK government War Memorials has contributed £897,324 to the Ebola Virus Disease Question response in the three affected countries of Guinea, Sierra Leone and Liberia through multilateral partners Asked by Lord Fearn and the DFID bilateral programme. In addition, DFID is finalizing arrangements to send out three Public To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assistance Health England disease control specialists to Sierra is available to communities that seek to improve Leone to support the Ebola Virus Disease (EVD) their First and Second World War memorials. response. [HL728] Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): The DCMS-run Memorial Grant Scheme can be used by charities and In Sierra Leone, DFID funds are being used to faith groups to reclaim the VAT paid on repairs and support improved coordination at the national level; maintenance to war memorials. training and equipping of health workers competently to manage Ebola cases; improving EVD case detection War Memorials Trust website offers a wealth and supporting appropriate radio messaging and of information on available grants and advice for community mobilisation activities on EVD prevention communities planning to repair and conserve their in affected districts. In Liberia, DFID has provided war memorials. chlorine and other materials for hygiene and sanitising; The Government has just announced that it will and training in their appropriate use. Along with give the War Memorials Trust up to £3 million over colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the First World War centenary period to boost the we are closely monitoring the outbreak from Sierra funds available to local communities for the repair and Leone and Liberia (where we have DFID country conservation of war memorials. English Heritage, Imperial offices) and internationally through Whitehall. We War Museums and Civic Voice will together be given are working with WHO and national government £1.5 million over the same period to deliver better agencies to improve our understanding of the protection through Listing, a greater pool of specialist outbreak and help to guide the response in-country skills, a national register of war memorials, and a and regionally. network of trained volunteers.

Monday 7 July 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Correction to Lords Debate...... 1 Mental Health Act 1983 ...... 6

EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council...... 1 Railways: High Speed 2 Phase Two...... 7

G6 ...... 3 Transport: Door to Door Action Plan...... 7

Housing: Complaints...... 4 UK-Caribbean Ministerial Forum...... 9

Monday 7 July 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Academies ...... 1 Israel...... 11

Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants) Act Legal Aid Scheme...... 12 2004...... 1 Mass Media...... 12 Bovine Tuberculosis...... 2 Nigeria...... 12 Central African Republic...... 2 Palestinians...... 13 Civil Servants: Recruitment ...... 3 Prisons: Standards ...... 13

Claims Management Services ...... 4 Probation...... 14

Coroners and Justice Act 2009...... 4 South Sudan ...... 14

Counter-terrorism...... 5 Sri Lanka...... 15

Debts...... 6 Sudan ...... 16

Egypt...... 7 Terrorism: Northern Ireland...... 16

EU Justice and Home Affairs ...... 7 Thames Tideway Tunnel...... 16

Fracking ...... 8 UK Border Force...... 17

Grammar Schools ...... 8 UN Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women ...... 17 High Speed 2 Railway Line...... 9 USA ...... 18 Hong Kong...... 9 Uzbekistan ...... 19

Human Trafficking: Prosecutions ...... 10 Veterans: Health Services...... 19

Income Tax...... 10 Veterans: Mental Health Services ...... 20

Inland Waterways ...... 10 Viral Haemorrhagic Disease ...... 20

Interest Rates...... 11 War Memorials...... 22 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL445]...... 4 [HL505] ...... 14

[HL478] ...... 15 [HL508] ...... 12 Col. No. Col. No. [HL515] ...... 16 [HL636] ...... 16

[HL516]...... 9 [HL639] ...... 11

[HL519] ...... 17 [HL648] ...... 18

[HL520] ...... 18 [HL653]...... 2

[HL524] ...... 11 [HL655]...... 2

[HL525] ...... 13 [HL656]...... 3

[HL528] ...... 14 [HL657]...... 3

[HL541]...... 7 [HL658]...... 3 [HL664]...... 5 [HL542]...... 8 [HL665]...... 6 [HL543]...... 3 [HL666] ...... 12 [HL578] ...... 20 [HL667] ...... 13 [HL581] ...... 13 [HL668] ...... 19 [HL582] ...... 14 [HL670] ...... 16 [HL584] ...... 19 [HL675]...... 9 [HL607] ...... 17 [HL678] ...... 20 [HL615]...... 4 [HL679]...... 7 [HL616]...... 4 [HL683] ...... 12 [HL617]...... 1 [HL686]...... 6

[HL618]...... 1 [HL722]...... 1

[HL619] ...... 10 [HL723]...... 8

[HL620]...... 5 [HL726] ...... 10

[HL621]...... 2 [HL727] ...... 10

[HL632] ...... 10 [HL728] ...... 22 Volume 755 Monday No. 20 7 July 2014

CONTENTS

Monday 7 July 2014 Introduction: The Lord Bishop of Ely...... 1 Questions House of Lords: Question Time...... 1 British Council: English Schools Abroad...... 4 Scientific Research and Development...... 6 Legal Aid: Social Welfare Law...... 9 Criminal Justice and Courts Bill Order of Consideration Motion ...... 11 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Iraq) Order 2014 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Mongolia) Order 2014 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Philippines) Order 2014 European Union (Definition of Treaties) (Partnership and Cooperation Agreement) (Vietnam) Order 2014 Motions to Approve...... 12 Legal Services Act 2007 (Approved Regulator) Order 2014 Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) (Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys and Institute of Trade Mark Attorneys) Order 2014 Legal Services Act 2007 (Appeals from Licensing Authority Decisions) (Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and Wales) Order 2014 Motions to Approve...... 12 Political Parties, Elections and Referendums (Civil Sanctions) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 13 Deregulation Bill Second Reading...... 13 Child Abuse Statement ...... 53 Deregulation Bill (Continued) Second Reading...... 64 Health: Polypill Question for Short Debate...... 98 Grand Committee Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (Amendment of Schedule 1: injunctions to prevent gang-related violence) Order 2014 Motion to Consider...... GC 1 Adoption and Children Act Register (Search and Inspection) (Pilot) Regulations 2014 Motion to Consider...... GC 3 Terrorism Act 2000 (Code of Practice for Examining Officers and Review Officers) Order 2014 Motion to Consider...... GC 8 Ministry of Defence: Use of Biofuels Question for Short Debate ...... GC 14 Trade Unions Question for Short Debate ...... GC 23 Written Statements...... WS 1 Written Answers ...... WA 1