First Session, 40th Parliament
OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
(HANSARD)
Th ursday, July 25, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting Volume 4, Number 7
THE HONOURABLE LINDA REID, SPEAKER
ISSN 0709-1281 (Print) ISSN 1499-2175 (Online) PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)
LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Judith Guichon, OBC
First Session, 40th Parliament
SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Linda Reid
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Natural Gas Development and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. John Rustad Minister of Advanced Education ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Minister of Agriculture ...... Hon. Pat Pimm Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Minister of Education ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Core Review ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Minister of Environment ...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Th omson Minister of Health ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of International Trade and Minister Responsible for Asia Pacifi c Strategy and Multiculturalism ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training and Minister Responsible for Labour ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of State for Tourism and Small Business ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Minister of Justice ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Minister of Social Development and Social Innovation...... Hon. Don McRae Minister of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure ...... Hon. Todd Stone
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Leader of the Offi cial Opposition ...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker ...... Douglas Horne Assistant Deputy Speaker ...... Raj Chouhan Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Marc Dalton Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Craig James Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sessional Law Clerk ...... Roderick MacArthur, QC Clerk Consultant ...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Sergeant-at-Arms ...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING
Anton, Hon. Suzanne (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview Abbotsford-Mission ...... Simon Gibson Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal)...... Penticton Abbotsford South ...... Darryl Plecas Austin, Robin (NDP) ...... Skeena Abbotsford West ...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Bains, Harry (NDP) ...... Surrey-Newton Alberni–Pacifi c Rim ...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen ...... Linda Larson Bennett, Hon. Bill (BC Liberal) ...... Kootenay East Burnaby–Deer Lake ...... Kathy Corrigan Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River South Burnaby-Edmonds ...... Raj Chouhan Bing, Dr. Doug (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby-Lougheed ...... Jane Jae Kyung Shin Bond, Hon. Shirley (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Valemount Burnaby North ...... Richard T. Lee Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Donna Barnett Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP) ...... Vancouver–West End Cariboo North ...... Hon. Coralee Oakes Chouhan, Raj (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Edmonds Chilliwack ...... John Martin Clark, Hon. Christy (BC Liberal) ...... Westside-Kelowna Chilliwack-Hope ...... Laurie Th roness Coleman, Hon. Rich (BC Liberal) ...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Norm Macdonald Conroy, Katrine (NDP) ...... Kootenay West Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Corrigan, Kathy (NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Coquitlam–Burke Mountain ...... Douglas Horne Dalton, Marc (BC Liberal) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Selina Robinson Darcy, Judy (NDP) ...... New Westminster Cowichan Valley ...... Bill Routley de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford West Delta North ...... Scott Hamilton Dix, Adrian (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Delta South ...... Vicki Huntington Donaldson, Doug (NDP) ...... Stikine Esquimalt–Royal Roads ...... Maurine Karagianis Eby, David (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Point Grey Fort Langley–Aldergrove ...... Hon. Rich Coleman Elmore, Mable (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Fraser-Nicola...... Jackie Tegart Farnworth, Mike (NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Juan de Fuca ...... John Horgan Fassbender, Hon. Peter (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Fleetwood Kamloops–North Th ompson ...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Fleming, Rob (NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Kamloops–South Th ompson ...... Hon. Todd Stone Foster, Eric (BC Liberal) ...... Vernon-Monashee Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Norm Letnick Fraser, Scott (NDP) ...... Alberni–Pacifi c Rim Kelowna-Mission ...... Hon. Steve Th omson Gibson, Simon (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Kootenay East ...... Hon. Bill Bennett Hamilton, Scott (BC Liberal) ...... Delta North Kootenay West ...... Katrine Conroy Hammell, Sue (NDP) ...... Surrey–Green Timbers Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Heyman, George (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview Maple Ridge–Mission ...... Marc Dalton Hogg, Gordon (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey–White Rock Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows ...... Dr. Doug Bing Holman, Gary (NDP) ...... Saanich North and the Islands Nanaimo ...... Leonard Eugene Krog Horgan, John (NDP) ...... Juan de Fuca Nanaimo–North Cowichan ...... Doug Routley Horne, Douglas (BC Liberal) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Nechako Lakes ...... Hon. John Rustad Hunt, Marvin (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Panorama Nelson-Creston ...... Michelle Mungall Huntington, Vicki (Ind.) ...... Delta South New Westminster ...... Judy Darcy James, Carole (NDP) ...... Victoria–Beacon Hill North Coast...... Jennifer Rice Karagianis, Maurine (NDP) ...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads North Island ...... Claire Trevena Krog, Leonard Eugene (NDP) ...... Nanaimo North Vancouver–Lonsdale ...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP) ...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant North Vancouver–Seymour ...... Jane Th ornthwaite Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal) ...... Shuswap Oak Bay–Gordon Head ...... Dr. Andrew Weaver Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–North Th ompson Parksville-Qualicum ...... Michelle Stilwell Larson, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Boundary-Similkameen Peace River North ...... Hon. Pat Pimm Lee, Richard T. (BC Liberal) ...... Burnaby North Peace River South ...... Mike Bernier Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Penticton...... Dan Ashton Macdonald, Norm (NDP) ...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Port Coquitlam ...... Mike Farnworth McRae, Hon. Don (BC Liberal) ...... Comox Valley Port Moody–Coquitlam ...... Linda Reimer Martin, John (BC Liberal) ...... Chilliwack Powell River–Sunshine Coast ...... Nicholas Simons Morris, Mike (BC Liberal) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Prince George–Mackenzie ...... Mike Morris Mungall, Michelle (NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston Prince George–Valemount ...... Hon. Shirley Bond Oakes, Hon. Coralee (BC Liberal) ...... Cariboo North Richmond Centre ...... Hon. Teresa Wat Pimm, Hon. Pat (BC Liberal) ...... Peace River North Richmond East ...... Hon. Linda Reid Plecas, Darryl (BC Liberal) ...... Abbotsford South Richmond-Steveston ...... John Yap Polak, Hon. Mary (BC Liberal) ...... Langley Saanich North and the Islands ...... Gary Holman Popham, Lana (NDP) ...... Saanich South Saanich South ...... Lana Popham Ralston, Bruce (NDP) ...... Surrey-Whalley Shuswap ...... Greg Kyllo Reid, Hon. Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond East Skeena ...... Robin Austin Reimer, Linda (BC Liberal) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Stikine ...... Doug Donaldson Rice, Jennifer (NDP) ...... North Coast Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Robinson, Selina (NDP) ...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey-Fleetwood ...... Hon. Peter Fassbender Routley, Bill (NDP) ...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–Green Timbers ...... Sue Hammell Routley, Doug (NDP) ...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Newton ...... Harry Bains Rustad, Hon. John (BC Liberal) ...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Panorama ...... Marvin Hunt Shin, Jane Jae Kyung (NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Surrey-Tynehead ...... Hon. Amrik Virk Simons, Nicholas (NDP) ...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Simpson, Shane (NDP) ...... Vancouver-Hastings Surrey–White Rock ...... Gordon Hogg Stilwell, Michelle (BC Liberal) ...... Parksville-Qualicum Vancouver-Fairview ...... George Heyman Stilwell, Dr. Moira (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–False Creek ...... Sam Sullivan Stone, Hon. Todd (BC Liberal) ...... Kamloops–South Th ompson Vancouver-Fraserview ...... Hon. Suzanne Anton Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Hastings ...... Shane Simpson Sullivan, Sam (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver–False Creek Vancouver-Kensington ...... Mable Elmore Sultan, Ralph (BC Liberal) ...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal) ...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver-Langara ...... Dr. Moira Stilwell Th omson, Hon. Steve (BC Liberal) ...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–Mount Pleasant ...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Th ornthwaite, Jane (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Vancouver–Point Grey ...... David Eby Th roness, Laurie (BC Liberal)...... Chilliwack-Hope Vancouver-Quilchena ...... Hon. Andrew Wilkinson Trevena, Claire (NDP) ...... North Island Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Virk, Hon. Amrik (BC Liberal) ...... Surrey-Tynehead Vernon-Monashee ...... Eric Foster Wat, Hon. Teresa (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill ...... Carole James Weaver, Dr. Andrew (Ind.) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Hon. Andrew (BC Liberal) ...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano ...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (BC Liberal) ...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky ...... Jordan Sturdy Yap, John (BC Liberal) ...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna ...... Hon. Christy Clark
Party Standings: BC Liberal 49; New Democratic 34; Independent 2
CONTENTS
Th ursday, July 25, 2013 Aft ernoon Sitting
Page
Routine Business
Speaker's Statement ...... 1127 Service of legislative staff and messages of condolence regarding former legislative staff
Tributes ...... 1127 Paralympic world championships win by Parksville-Qualicum MLA A. Dix
Introductions by Members ...... 1127
Tributes ...... 1128 Paralympic world championships win by Parksville-Qualicum MLA M. Bernier
Introductions by Members ...... 1128
By-Election Results ...... 1128
Statements (Standing Order 25B) ...... 1129 Vancouver Pride Parade and human rights activism S. Chandra Herbert Painted Chair program for developmentally disabled adults L. Larson Hepatitis awareness and prevention S. Hammell Diabetes support activities of Nel Peach G. Kyllo Community spirit in Burnaby J. Shin Walk with the Dragon fundraiser by SUCCESS organization R. Lee
Oral Questions ...... 1131 New ferry construction and support for B.C. shipbuilding industry A. Dix Hon. T. Stone G. Holman B.C. Ferries information on ferry evacuation plans C. Trevena Hon. T. Stone Tax competitiveness of fi lm industry G. Heyman Hon. M. de Jong Centre of the Universe astronomy interpretive centre L. Popham Hon. N. Yamamoto
Petitions ...... 1135 L. Krog D. Donaldson G. Kyllo Orders of the Day
Committee of Supply ...... 1135 Estimates: Ministry of Health (continued) S. Hammell Hon. T. Lake J. Darcy S. Robinson L. Popham M. Elmore J. Kwan D. Eby K. Corrigan D. Routley Estimates: Legislation Estimates: Offi cers of the Legislature
Introduction and First Reading of Bills ...... 1154 Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014 Hon. M. de Jong
Second Reading of Bills ...... 1155 Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014 Hon. M. de Jong
Committee of the Whole House ...... 1155 Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014
Report and Th ird Reading of Bills ...... 1155 Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014
Royal Assent to Bills ...... 1155 Bill 2 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2013 Bill 3 — Supply Act, 2013-2014
Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room
Committee of Supply ...... 1156 Estimates: Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation (continued) Hon. J. Rustad D. Donaldson
Proceedings in the Birch Room
Committee of Supply ...... 1172 Estimates: Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' Services (continued) G. Heyman Hon. A. Wilkinson D. Eby 1127
THURSDAY, JULY 25, 2013 Hon. B. Bennett: The member for Prince George– Valemount says that's why I need a CA. Th e House met at 1:33 p.m. I'd also like to introduce to the House today John Winter and Dan Baxter, who are up in the gallery some- [Madame Speaker in the chair.] where, both from the B.C. Chamber of Commerce. Th irdly, there is a young lady in the gallery somewhere. Routine Business I don't see her, but I know she's up there. Her name is Laura Tennant, and she is the executive assistant to the Speaker's Statement Premier's chief of staff . She's worked here for us for fi ve years, and she's never actually sat through a question per- SERVICE OF LEGISLATIVE STAFF AND iod before. Please help me make Laura welcome. MESSAGES OF CONDOLENCE REGARDING FORMER LEGISLATIVE STAFF L. Popham: I have a whole gaggle of neighbours to introduce. I have Deb Bestito, Dave Th ibault, Deb Flurry, Madame Speaker: Good aft ernoon, hon. Members. John Flurry, Diane Waller and Gordon Waller here visit- Today it gives me great pleasure to recognize the service ing me today. We had lunch. Th ey haven't seen me since of individuals who have worked in this building and I was elected in 2009, so it's very nice to spend some are leaving us. On behalf of the Sergeant-at-Arms staff , time with them. Mario Bedard, sessional corridor supervisor for 11 years of service; Larry Dinn, sessional gallery supervisor for 14 D. Horne: I have someone here in the gallery. years of service; Charles Timmons, security, 12 years of Oft entimes we talk about our constituency assistants service; and Frank Walker, who worked in the Sergeant- and our campaign managers. Unfortunately, as the last at-Arms branch for 25 years. I'd ask the House to please campaign began my constituency assistant and campaign acknowledge that service. [Applause.] manager had an accident and was in hospital for three days. I have to say that my lovely wife, who is in the gal- Hon. Members, we are also sad to hear of the passing lery today, stepped in and took over my campaign. I was of two of our Sergeant-at-Arms sessional security offi - very pleased with the work that she did and the support cers: John Fallifi eld, who retired in 2013 aft er seven years that she's given me over 18 years. Larissa Horne is in the with security; and Alex Walls, who worked in security for gallery, and may the House make her welcome. 15 years. Condolences to their families. H. Bains: In the gallery is a very passionate and, I Tributes would say, very respected labour leader and my good friend Bruce Ferguson, who is a special representa- PARALYMPIC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS WIN tive and retired council president of Construction and BY PARKSVILLE-QUALICUM MLA Specialized Workers Union Local 1611. Please join with me and extend a warm welcome to my friend. A. Dix: I want to acknowledge on this side of the House — and I know all members of the House will join Hon. N. Yamamoto: Today in the gallery I have three me in this — the extraordinary success of the member for members of the Yamamoto clan from North Vancouver. Parksville-Qualicum today. Her victory in the 800 metres I have my sister-in-law Brenda Yamamoto — I can't see is a source of pride for Canadians, for British Columbians them, but I'm sure they're here somewhere — and my two and all of us as members of the House. We wanted to pass nieces: Jennifer, who is 14, and Kami, who is 11. Th ey are on to her our congratulations. [Applause.] budding hockey players and, hopefully, future golf part- ners. Would the House please make them feel welcome. Introductions by Members G. Holman: I'd like to welcome three visitors from Hon. B. Bennett: I have three introductions today. Saanich North and the Islands. In the gallery today [1335] are Mr. Kenny Podmore and his wife. Mr. Podmore is First of all, I'd like to introduce my constituency as- a councillor for the Sidney municipality and also their sistant. When we do this, we typically say that we have town crier. Also, Alicia Cormier, who is a councillor the best constituency assistant in the province. In this for Central Saanich municipality, is visiting here today. case, it's true. Her name is Jennifer Osmar, and she's Would the House please make them feel welcome. from Cranbrook. Please help make me…. Help make her feel welcome. G. Kyllo: I'm very proud to introduce my lovely wife, Georgina, my sweetheart. We've been married almost Hon. S. Bond: Th at's why you need her. 25 years. I'm extremely hopeful that not only will I get to 1128 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
the full 25 but that in October, our anniversary, I might Introductions by Members get another 25 years. Love you. M. Bernier: When I think of oil and gas, when I think of mining and when I think of forestry, I think of my M. Mungall: Up in the gallery is one of this House's districts, and in my districts I think of the district of best staff people. She's my legislative assistant, Susan Chetwynd. It's my pleasure to have in the House today Farmer. May the House please make her welcome. His Worship Mayor Merlin Nichols; the CAO, Doug Fleming; and the director of fi nancial administration, E. Foster: We quite oft en get up in the House to thank Bill Caldwell, who took some time out of their busy lives our employees and sometimes friends, but Robert Scherf up in the northeast of the province to come down and has been in the building now for 2½ years. He was an as- visit us here in the House. So please make them welcome. sistant legislative assistant when he started. He became a legislative assistant and then was promoted to be the Hon. T. Lake: Along with some of my colleagues, I'd executive assistant in the Whip's offi ce. He's done an out- like to acknowledge some members of our staff who will standing job there for us. soon be leaving us. John Manning was a research offi cer [1340] when I fi rst was elected in 2009. He has served in vari- He started his career, actually, as the CA for the ous capacities and now is a ministerial assistant for the Minister of Health. Th e Minister of Health informed me Minister of Health. John is going on to other endeavours, that recently Robert took leave and worked on his elec- and I wish him the very best. tion campaign. Without question, the toughest job he's I also wish Kellie O'Brien very much success as she had in his political life was getting the Minister of Health looks forward to having her first child and going on re-elected. [Laughter.] maternity leave. Would the House please join me in wish- Actually, he did say that to me. ing them both the very best of luck. Today is Robert's last day working in the precinct. He is heading for Toronto, the University of Toronto, where V. Huntington: I'd like the House to help me to wel- come Antony Tsui, who is not only a member of my he is enrolled in a master of public policy. So if the House youth advisory council but is joining my offi ce as an in- could please thank Robert for all his hard work on our tern over the summer. I'd like the House to welcome him behalf and wish him the best of luck in his endeavours. to the precinct. R. Fleming: I wanted to introduce in the gallery to- Hon. M. de Jong: In the gallery today is Tracy Menzies. day my constituency assistant, Marni Off man, who has She generously lends her husband to me in his capacity worked for me for the last eight years. You can sympa- as ministerial assistant and perhaps is more generous thize with that. Although our offi ce is just 20 blocks or than she cares to be on the time front. Accompanying so from this building, this is her fi rst time in those eight her, fulfi lling the hopes, dreams and aspirations of chil- years attending question period, so make it a good one. dren across British Columbia on a warm July aft ernoon, Next to her is Susan Farmer, who is my legislative as- are their kids, Rebecca and Kaylee, and Kaylee's friend sistant along with the member for Nelson-Creston. I Sophie McMillan. I know there is no place that Tracy, would ask the House to make both of these women wel- Rebecca, Kaylee and Sophie would rather be than right come here today. here amongst us. Please make them feel welcome. [1345] Tributes By-Election Results PARALYMPIC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS WIN BY PARKSVILLE-QUALICUM MLA Clerk of the House: July 23, 2013 M. Bernier: Most of us in life aspire for greatness. Some of us actually are lucky enough to achieve it. Some Hon. Linda Reid, MLA achieve it more oft en than others. I, also, want to acknow- Speaker of the Legislative Assembly ledge our member for Parksville-Qualicum. Not only did Room 207 Parliament Buildings she achieve greatness; she's done it in fashion and repre- Victoria, B.C. V8V 1X4 sented us well. Th is morning, for her 800 metres, she worked hard and broke the Canadian record by almost Dear Madame Speaker: 15 seconds, which also put her on top of the podium with On June 11, 2013, this office received your warrant advis- ing of a vacancy in the Legislative Assembly resulting from the gold, achieving a world record. So can the House please resignation of Ben Stewart, member for the electoral district of acknowledge that. Westside-Kelowna. Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1129
On direction from the Lieutenant-Governor-in-Council, I Ten years ago, thanks to leadership from my constitu- issued a writ of election for the electoral district of Westside- ents, we managed to defeat discriminatory marriage laws Kelowna on June 12, ordering that a by-election be held to fi ll the vacancy. Th e writ specifi ed general voting day to be July 10. in the courts and forced the B.C. government to recog- Th e by-election was held in accordance with the provisions nize love in same-sex marriage. But as we march in pride of the Election Act, and the completed writ of election has been this year, we know there is more to be done. returned to me. We must explicitly recognize transgendered British In accordance with section 147(2) of the Election Act, I Columbians in the human rights code, and we must en- hereby certify the following individual to be elected to serve as a Member of the Legislative Assembly: Christy Clark, for the sure that our schools are safe for all students and take electoral district of Westside-Kelowna. special action for lesbian, gay, bi and trans students, who face some of the worst discrimination. We will march on. Sincerely, I invite every member of this House to get involved in Keith Archer, PhD Chief Electoral Offi cer their local pride celebrations and to come join us in the British Columbia Vancouver Pride Parade. Happy pride.
Hon. S. Anton: I move that the certifi cate of the Chief PAINTED CHAIR PROGRAM FOR Electoral Offi cer of the result of the election of the mem- DEVELOPMENTALLY DISABLED ADULTS ber be entered upon the Journals of the House. L. Larson: I'd like to take this opportunity to tell Motion approved. you about a partnership between Community Living B.C. and a local service provider, Hovanes Community Statements Services, in my home, Oliver. Th is is a new local suc- (Standing Order 25B) cess story. Th e program is called the Painted Chair. Th e employ- VANCOUVER PRIDE PARADE AND ees are all adults with developmental disabilities. Th ese HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISM adults have a wide range of disabilities, requiring extra volunteers and staff and families to help with this ven- S. Chandra Herbert: Sunday, August 4, marks Van- ture. It is funded by Community Living B.C., and all of couver's annual pride parade. Pride is a protest against the profi ts go to the adults who participate in the pro- discrimination and hatred and a celebration of how far gram. Th is does not compromise any assistance they may we've come. already be receiving. Gay, lesbian, bi and trans British Columbians have Th e adults and staff work together on refi nishing in- faced legislated discrimination for many years. Th ey've dividual pieces of simple wood furniture. Th ey sand the been sent to prison; lost their jobs, housing and their furniture and repaint it in bright colours. Th ey also clean kids; and faced outright verbal attacks by Premiers, mem- and repair slightly used clothing. Th ey work Monday to bers of B.C. and Canadian governments. But our com- Friday, and on Wednesdays and Saturday mornings they munity stood strong and reached out. open to the public to sell their refi nished furniture and Th e fi ght against discrimination and for equality really other items, giving them the opportunity to interact with took off in Vancouver in the early '70s. Th e Gay Alliance the public at large. Towards Equality organized dances, marches and pro- [1350] tests. Th ese events evolved into today's pride parade and Th ese adults are being taught transferable job skills that festival. they can take to other areas of the community. Th ey also Early activists remember having to march with bags have an opportunity to supplement their disability pen- over their heads or having to hide behind trees when sions. Th eir families are very grateful for this assistance in media or the police showed up, to avoid losing their helping these challenged adults to enrich their lives. Th is jobs or ending up in jail. Not many were interested in program is only a few months old, and already there's a standing up for gay and lesbian people, but a few brave new-found pride and sense of accomplishment, which is members did. Th e NDP member for Vancouver-Burrard, evident by the smiles on their faces. Rosemary Brown, was the fi rst to call for sexual orien- Th anks to Community Living B.C. for partnering with tation to be added to the human rights code in 1973. In a local service provider in this innovative initiative to the year I was born, Emery Barnes and Mike Harcourt make the lives of adults with disabilities more product- were the fi rst B.C. elected offi cials to ever march in a ive and fulfi lling. pride parade. Pride continued to grow and help bring change. In the HEPATITIS AWARENESS AND PREVENTION 1990s sexual orientation was fi nally added to the human rights code, and same-sex couples won the right to adopt, S. Hammell: Hepatitis aff ects everyone, everywhere. something my husband, Romi, and I are now working on. "Know it, confront it, and get tested." Th is is the unoffi cial 1130 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
motto for World Hepatitis Day. Th e 63rd World Health Association's Regional Service Award and National Assembly has recognized Sunday, July 28, as World Volunteer Award. Hepatitis Day in order to enhance public awareness and Did I mention that this hard-working, determined, education, reduce stigma, foster tolerance, acknowledge young, inspiring member of my community turned 73 those aff ected and to explore ways to better address hepa- years old today? In keeping with her generous spirit, Nel titis B and C in the future. is throwing a birthday party this weekend, but instead of British Columbia has the highest hepatitis B and hepa- gift s, she'll collect donations for her next Team Diabetes titis C infection rates in Canada. Th e appalling reality is event in Amsterdam on Sunday, October 20. that almost 60,000 British Columbians are living with I want to wish Nel Peach a very happy birthday and hepatitis B, and 80,000 are living with hepatitis C. Many thank her for her tireless eff orts to raise awareness and aren't even aware they have hepatitis and unknowingly pass it on to their children. funds to support the diabetes community. Nel is truly I fi rmly believe that education and knowledge are the amazing, and I wish her all the best as she continues keys to prevention. I'm proud to announce that Keys to make positive contributions to our local community. Housing and Health Solutions Society — formerly the [1355] South Fraser Community Services Society — located in Surrey is hosting its fourth annual World Hepatitis Day COMMUNITY SPIRIT IN BURNABY tomorrow, July 26, at Positive Haven. So 500 million people are living with chronic hepatitis J. Shin: Hon. Members, as you know, life changes in B and C worldwide, but despite the huge burden, there is an instant, and some changes are painful and come more widespread ignorance of the diseases. Hepatitis is oft en trying than others. It can be that one missed shoulder known as the silent disease and may not present symp- check while changing lanes. It can be a notice on the toms until one's liver is severely damaged, and that pro- board at work of the pending mass layoff s, and you're cess may take decades. one of them. It can be a phone call from a family doctor We are blessed to live in a country with universal about your test results, which had been the case for me. health care. I urge everyone to take part in the activities Just like that, life as you know it is no longer the same. and spread awareness, and to get tested for hepatitis. But the beautiful thing about these tribulations is that they oft en bring out the best in us, in each other. It can be DIABETES SUPPORT ACTIVITIES a young family in Burnaby that celebrated the one-year OF NEL PEACH anniversary of their baby girl Lauren Arneill's life-saving G. Kyllo: Any time an MLA in this House is asked heart surgery by holding a garage sale for the hospital last what makes their home riding great, I have no doubt Saturday. It can be a group of friendly neighbours in my that one of the fi rst things that comes to mind is people riding's Montecito Towers toasting to the opening of their — local residents who exemplify kindness, generosity and brand-new community swimming pool. dedication to their community. From a Bosnia-Herzegovina community hosting their In Salmon Arm we're lucky to have Petronella Peach. second annual summer festival last month to the city Nel Peach is known as a volunteer extraordinaire. inviting the symphony orchestra for the 25th year to Diagnosed with diabetes 30 years ago, she's used her Burnaby–Deer Lake for thousands of residents to share experience to become a passionate advocate for people together our love for arts and culture, Burnaby is bustling with diabetes, bringing attention to the issues they face with diversity and community spirit. on a daily basis. We are home to over 30 registered charities and non- I'll give you a rundown of some of the activities that profit organizations, from Burnaby Association for Nel has been involved with. She's a tireless volunteer for Community Inclusion to Dixon Transition Society. the Canadian Diabetes Association. She has served as the Volunteerism and activism are not what we have to re- regional chair for the association's interior B.C. region. member to celebrate in Burnaby, because it has become She's been one of the top fundraisers for the association's our usual way of life. interior Summer Surge. She's also been an impressive I'm tremendously grateful to be a part of this wonder- fundraiser for Team Diabetes and has run several of their national and international marathon events. ful culture that I witness and live every day. As the sum- She's an active public speaker, sharing her diabetes mer legislative session comes to an end, I'm excited to journey with others. In 2010 she carried the Olympic return home and do my small share in paying it forward. torch in Salmon Arm, nominated for the honour by my On behalf of Burnaby-Lougheed, I would like to thank MLA predecessor, Mr. George Abbott. all the members of the House for your public service and She's won numerous accolades, including the wish everyone a happy summer of festivities back in your Queen's Diamond Jubilee; and the Canadian Diabetes communities. Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1131
WALK WITH THE DRAGON FUNDRAISER specting the taxpayers' dollar at every opportunity we get. BY SUCCESS ORGANIZATION B.C. Ferries has its own procurement process. We are going to respect B.C. Ferries' procurement process. We R. Lee: On Sunday over 13,000 enthusiastic partici- understand that B.C. Ferries, as they go through their pants joined SUCCESS for their 28th annual Walk with procurement, is going to balance the desire that I think the Dragon in Stanley Park. Th e Walk with the Dragon is we all have to create jobs here in British Columbia with SUCCESS's largest fundraiser of the year, this year raising ensuring that we're getting the best possible value for over $400,000 to support the wide range of programs de- B.C. taxpayers. livered by the organization. Beginning at Lumbermen's Arch, the colourful 30-metre dragon led participants on Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on a seven-kilometre walk along the scenic seawall. a supplemental. Th e festivities also included lots of family fun, with live entertainment, food booths, carnival games and lucky A. Dix: It was the Premier who said in the fall of 2011 draws. Amongst the thousands of participants was our that ferries in B.C. would be built in British Columbia. Premier, showing support for the great work SUCCESS Now, apparently, B.C. jobs come number two. does for communities in B.C. I'll tell you where we stand. We believe in B.C. work- I, too, would like to extend my congratulations and ers, we believe in B.C. companies, we believe in the B.C. gratitude to this wonderful organization for their great shipbuilding industry, and we believe these ferries should success on Sunday and for all that they do to help youth, be built right here in British Columbia. families and, particularly, new immigrants in need here I mean, it was only yesterday, hon. Speaker… in B.C. SUCCESS is comprised of three registered charities, Interjections. one limited-liability social enterprise and one of British Columbia's largest social services agencies. Madame Speaker: Members. Celebrating over 40 years of service, SUCCESS and thousands of their volunteers have assisted commun- A. Dix: …that the Minister of Jobs said: "We expect ities throughout the Metro Vancouver area and Fort St. British Columbians to be the fi rst priority and the fi rst John. SUCCESS provides a wide range of social services, in line." So here's a chance to show it. Here's a chance including settlement, employment, health, housing, and to show it. community and social development. Will the minister say today that these ferries will be I ask all members to join me in congratulating built right here in British Columbia by B.C. workers? SUCCESS on a wonderful 28th annual Walk with the Dragon and to show support for the tremendous work Hon. T. Stone: The Leader of the Opposition and this organization continues to do for our communities. the members opposite yet again completely fail to dem- onstrate any understanding of what it takes to build a Oral Questions world-class, competitive industry in British Columbia. I certainly am not going to be lectured by the members op- NEW FERRY CONSTRUCTION AND SUPPORT posite on how to create jobs. Th is government brought in FOR B.C. SHIPBUILDING INDUSTRY a jobs plan two years ago, and 50,000 jobs have been cre- ated in British Columbia as a result of that plan. A. Dix: Earlier this week B.C. Ferries announced it I'll remind the members opposite that the last major would be proceeding to buy three new intermediate-class procurement of ferries, the C-class ferries, actually came ferries to replace the Queen of Burnaby and the Queen of in $30 million under budget, and they were on time, Nanaimo. My question is to the minister responsible for which is good value for taxpayers. B.C. Ferries. What assurances can he provide that these Finally, it is a fact that this government insisted on get- ferries will be built in British Columbia? ting good value, best value for the taxpayers' dollar, which [1400] is why we have a shipbuilding industry here in British Columbia that is competitive and that can compete on Hon. T. Stone: Th e government absolutely supports the world stage. the creation of jobs in B.C.'s shipbuilding industry. In fact, this government has done a tremendous amount Madame Speaker: Th e Leader of the Opposition on over the last couple of years that has led to a new renais- a supplemental. sance of the B.C. shipbuilding industry. Th at being said, it is important, also, to understand that A. Dix: I know the government's position. I know their this government is balancing its budget this year and is position: "We build a few more ferries in Germany, and going to ensure that on a go-forward basis, we are re- our shipbuilding industry will be really great." I mean, 1132 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013 you either believe in the industry, or you don't believe in came clear that there isn't even a criterion in the procure- the industry. You either believe we should build ships in ment process that considers where the ferries will be built, British Columbia, or you don't. And before the election and the Jobs Minister admitted that the government has the Premier said just that. Now, aft er the election, the done no analysis whatsoever of the potential economic government is saying a diff erent story, hon. Speaker — a benefi ts of building ferries here in British Columbia. diff erent story. Let's not forget that B.C. Ferries is moving to design standardization, which means whichever shipbuilder An Hon. Member: We're not afraid to compete. gets the contract has the advantage for future ferries. Th at means if B.C. doesn't get in on the ground now, it won't A. Dix: With the record of overruns by this govern- have these contracts in the future. ment…. Th ey yell about overruns. With the record of My question to the minister is: will he stand up for overruns in this government, they should be afraid to workers and their families in B.C.'s shipbuilding indus- compete. Th e fact of the matter is our workers…. try and tell B.C. Ferries that these vessels need to be built here? Interjections. Hon. T. Stone: Well, it's nothing short of galling, yet Madame Speaker: Members. not surprising, that the members opposite have no faith [1405] whatsoever in the ability of B.C.'s shipbuilding industry to compete on the world stage. B.C.'s shipbuilding indus- A. Dix: The government asks itself whether we're try is going to be able to compete in this procurement having a discussion about B.C. Ferries. Social Credit process. B.C. Ferries has opened it up worldwide. Premiers, NDP Premiers and, up to this government, [1410] Liberal Premiers believed in using our ferry system to I think all members of this House would hope that B.C. build a shipbuilding industry in British Columbia. companies or Canadian companies would be successful Our workers can do the job. Our companies can do in their bids, but we're going to let the procurement pro- the job. Will this government commit today to building cess run its course. And you know what? Th is side of the every one of these ferries right here in British Columbia? House has full confi dence in the ability of the B.C. ship- building industry to compete on an equal playing fi eld Hon. T. Stone: Well, let's refresh everyone's memory with all other companies in the world. here for a moment, shall we. Th e last time the members opposite were in power and they had an opportunity to G. Holman: So does this side of the House. I'll remind revitalize B.C.'s shipbuilding industry, what exactly did the minister that government has no problem interfer- they do? Th ey said they would build fast ferries, and they ing with so-called independent entities when it comes would be built for $70 million, "right down to the cost of to levying a wheelchair tax on the disabled. Interference the toilet paper" — $70 million all in. in that case is fi ne. At the end of the day, what did British Columbians get? Under the B.C. Liberals, B.C. Ferries is in disarray. We got fast ferries that were really never used, at a cost Fares have skyrocketed, with a further 12 percent in- of $463 million. Th e last time these fast ferries were seen, crease planned over the next three years. Ridership is they were on a barge on the way to Abu Dhabi. down by 10 percent. Our government recently negotiated a deal with Now to add insult to injury, this Liberal government is Seaspan to assist it with a federal contract. Th at federal going to let B.C. Ferries once again build new vessels else- contract, which was awarded to B.C. shipbuilding, is go- where rather than right here in B.C. It's going to pass up a ing to result in an $8 billion investment in our industry historic opportunity to build on the federal shipbuilding here. Th at's because of this government. contract and set our shipbuilding industry on a course to be internationally competitive for generations. It will G. Holman: So it's fi ne for the federal government to also pass up on the jobs, the income and the provincial build ships in British Columbia but not okay for the B.C. tax revenue benefi ts that would accrue from building fer- government to do that. A jobs plan that has resulted in ries here in British Columbia. negative 30,000 private sector jobs in British Columbia Why is this government turning its back on this op- — that's a plan. Th e Premier talked about B.C. building portunity, on the jobs that families would benefi t from, ferries for the world, but the reality is the world is build- from building these ferries here and also from the prov- ing ferries for British Columbia. Th ree ferries built in incial tax revenues that would be generated by building Germany at a cost of $540 million, and now the prospect the ferries right here in British Columbia? of more ferries being built elsewhere, also forgoing all of the spinoff benefi ts to the B.C. economy. Hon. T. Stone: Well, the best thing that happened to In the estimates for the Transportation Minister, it be- jobs in British Columbia happened on May 14. As you Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1133
know, hon. Speaker, opportunities like a growing, thriv- C. Trevena: Th e minister is responsible for B.C. Ferries. ing shipbuilding industry, like we have here in British I'm talking about the current fl eet, some vessels of which Columbia, are exactly the kind of jobs that this govern- are almost 50 years old. Because the minister is clearly ment wants to see created. not aware of the freedom-of-information request, which As I said a moment ago, in the past two years over is readily available on B.C. Ferries' website, I'd like to give 50,000 jobs have been created across British Columbia him examples. specifi c to the shipbuilding industry. Since the Seaspan Th e Powell River Queen. I cite interest there. It's one of contract was awarded, jobs have gone up by almost 2,000 the minor routes. I travel on it regularly. Under "General in B.C.'s shipbuilding industry as they prepare to fulfi l description" it says: "Th e vessel is fi tted with" — blank one of the largest orders in B.C.'s history. At the end of — "ESS slide systems" — blank. Point 2 is blank. Point the day, the members opposite have no ground to stand 3 is blank — "rescue boat" — blank. "In charge evacua- on whatsoever in lecturing us on this side of the fl oor tion" — blank. about job creation. On page 8, "Special needs passengers must be iden- We are going to let B.C. Ferries run the course on their tifi ed at the beginning of the emergency and" — blank. procurement, and we are confi dent that B.C. compan- Th e Coastal-class, those expensive German vessels ies are going to be more than able to compete, moving — page aft er blanked-out page. "Abandon ship" check- forward. off is blank. Th e Spirit-class. Let's look at evacuation at sea. Again, I B.C. FERRIES INFORMATION ON quote: "When the vessel is at sea and a developing emer- FERRY EVACUATION PLANS gency necessitates the evacuation of the vessel, the fol- lowing plan shall be used as guidance for the orderly C. Trevena: Under the B.C. Liberals, B.C. Ferries have evacuation of the vessel." Th en apart from the words "dis- jacked up ferry rates. Th ey've sent shipbuilding jobs over- tribution of life jackets" and "medical assistance," it's all seas for the C-class vessels, and it looks like, from what blanked out — even the location of life jackets is blanked out. Perhaps there is no plan. the minister is saying today, they'd be quite happy to see that happen again. Madame Speaker: Member, is there a question? Not only are they failing to look aft er the public inter- ests in the economic sense; they're failing to uphold the C. Trevena: Yes, there is, Madame Speaker. bare minimum standards for openness. I'd like to ask the I'd like to know from the Minister of Transportation Minister of Transportation to explain why a freedom- why the evacuation plans for B.C. Ferries are distributed of-information request about evacuation plans for each on a need-to-know basis. individual vessel in the fl eet — information about pas- senger safety, information which is clearly in the public Hon. T. Stone: I will say to the member opposite that interest — has come back with page aft er page blanked every member on this side of the fl oor, as I'm sure every- out. one in the House, holds the safety of the travelling public [1415] on our ferries with the highest regard, and of the high- est importance. Hon. T. Stone: Obviously, safety is the number one I would also like to say that B.C. Ferries operates with consideration that this government has, that B.C. Ferries the highest safety standards in the world. I want to thank has with respect to their vessels. If the member opposite the hard-working men and women of B.C. Ferries who has a concern about a freedom-of-information request diligently, day in, day out, do everything in their power that's been brought forward, there is a process to inquire to ensure that the ferries we travel on are as safe as they further about that directly with B.C. Ferries. absolutely can be. I will say that moving forward, as B.C. Ferries de- termines its procurement process that has just begun a TAX COMPETITIVENESS couple days ago, they are going to…. Th e number one OF FILM INDUSTRY priority is safety; the number two priority is reliability. We would hope that there's also some consideration of a G. Heyman: Yesterday in estimates the Minister of cleaner fuel for propulsion. Jobs responded to concerns that I expressed about the At the end of the day, as I've said several times here to- fl ight of B.C. fi lm and TV production by saying that day, we are hopeful that B.C. shipbuilders will compete production numbers were actually heading up this year. and will compete strongly in this procurement process. Yet industry producers here in British Columbia say that production so far this year is actually down by about 15 Madame Speaker: Th e Member for North Island on percent. a supplemental. One of the bright spots of hope was the impending 1134 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
production in Vancouver of Fantastic Four. But yesterday G. Heyman: As I'm sure the minister is aware, because that hope for underemployed local fi lm crews was dashed this study has been available for two weeks, the indus- when a studio spokesperson confi rmed that the Fantastic try just commissioned a study on the economic contri- Four is moving production from Vancouver to Louisiana, butions of fi lm and TV in Canada. It shows a signifi cant which has a more competitive tax regime. number of both direct and indirect small business jobs Th is government has succeeded in doing what no other created by the investment, as well as signifi cant payment supervillain has, and that's to scare away the Fantastic in provincial taxes. Four. B.C. currently has a 27 percent share of production in [1420] Canada. Th e math is pretty simple; it's not hard. And the Madame Speaker, the Minister of Transportation has numbers are impressive — including the fact that the in- said that this government understands competition dustry returns in British Columbia, if you apply that for- and knows how to be competitive. My question to the mula, double the amount of tax credits that the minister Minister of Finance is: will he make B.C.'s tax credit re- referred to. Th at's a good deal for taxpayers. It's a great gime in the fi lm and television industry competitive with economic stimulus and job creator. other jurisdictions in North America? My question to the Minister of Finance again: will this minister and this government heed the call of the industry, Hon. M. de Jong: Thank you for the question. It's producers and workers and support B.C.'s job-generating a source of immense pride, I think — for all British industry with a competitive tax regime, or will the govern- Columbians and members on both sides of the House ment's message continue to be: "It's clobbering time for the — how the fi lm and production sector has grown. It has B.C. fi lm industry"? done so, in large measure, because of the talents of the Hon. M. de Jong: Well, holy corporate subsidy, people who work in that industry — some of it very Batman. I always appreciate the commentary from the unique, in terms of the skills they acquire. It's something Boy Wonder over there. that we are entitled to be immensely proud of. [1425] It's also, in part, attributable to a tax structure that I am unaccustomed and have been…. During the has been created, a form of subsidy for the industry course of this debate, I've tried to reconcile what, in that actually pays back on the basis of the amount of some instances, has been a historic aversion to the kind labour costs that those productions incur. In the year of corporate subsidy that the member now advocates ahead we expect that amount to reach $380 million, with gusto. Madame Speaker. Th at's 380 million tax dollars from Th ere is no disagreement concerning the benefi ts that hard-working British Columbians that goes to reimburse have accrued to British Columbia, the unique talents companies for the cost of labour associated with those that have been developed here and the desire to ensure productions. We think it's a sound investment, and it is that those talents can be put to work. Th at's good for B.C. an investment that has grown dramatically year over year, Th at's good for Canada. signalling continued growth in that sector. But rather than continue with a process that sees one It's good news for the province and good news for jurisdiction in Canada competing with another to see the sector, but it is not a limitless subsidy that British how much money we can send to Hollywood, which is Columbia taxpayers can aff ord. We will continue to en- precisely what that member is advocating, I believe and sure that an appropriate balance is achieved. the government believes that it makes more sense for us in Canada, in jurisdictions like British Columbia and Madame Speaker: Vancouver-Fairview on a supple- Ontario, to work together and maximize the benefi ts of mental. the fi lm and production sector for all Canadians and all British Columbians. G. Heyman: We're all proud of B.C.'s fi lm and tele- vision industry. We're proud of the skills and the infra- CENTRE OF THE UNIVERSE structure that have been built. But as this government sits ASTRONOMY INTERPRETIVE CENTRE idly by, the B.C. fi lm industry is going up in fl ames like the Human Torch. L. Popham: Th e Centre of the Universe is an inter- The Fantastic Four promised hundreds of jobs to pretive education centre for the Saanich observatory. It British Columbia workers. As I'm sure the minister is helps kindle a love of science in thousands of children aware, because this…. and youth every year. It's an irreplaceable tourist attrac- tion and educational resource, and it's set to close in one Interjections. month. Given that we need to be doing more to encourage our Madame Speaker: Members. young people to enter the sciences, can the Minister of Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1135
Technology and Innovation outline what steps this gov- Premier has appointed not one but two ministers respon- ernment has taken to advocate to the federal government sible for tourism in British Columbia. to keep the Centre of the Universe open? [End of question period.] Hon. N. Yamamoto: I have to say it was a real positive sign that the tourism industries continued to see posi- Petitions tive growth even aft er the huge year of the 2010 Winter Olympics, which this side of the House supported. L. Krog: I want to table a petition calling upon this Year aft er year this industry has seen continued growth House to call on the government of Canada to take steps in British Columbia, contributing to our provincial GDP to proclaim Vancouver Island a province. despite the economic challenges we're seeing in the rest of the world. D. Donaldson: I'm presenting a petition on behalf of Th is government has created Destination B.C. Th is is the residents of the Kitwanga valley and nearby com- a great example where government has listened to the munities. It's a petition for high-speed Internet service. tourism industry and has said that this is an organiza- It says: "Together we request immediate action to bring tion that's going to take us to the next step. Th is is an this essential service to the people of Kitwanga." High- organization that will ensure that we partner with indus- speed Internet service was promised by the B.C. provin- try and with government to ensure that this spectacular cial government, and now, due to a dispute between Telus province is marketed as a visitor destination to the rest and the provincial government, it is on hold indefi nitely. of the world. G. Kyllo: I'm presenting a petition on behalf of ap- L. Popham: Houston, we have a problem, if that's the proximately 900 residents of Shuswap. They are en- minister's answer. couraging the Columbia-Shuswap regional district, the Canada's renowned astronaut Chris Hadfi eld has a Shuswap Lake integrated planning process, the Ministry family member living in Saanich South. She spoke to me of Transportation and the provincial Ministry of Forests, this morning about how proud she is that he has helped Lands and Natural Resources to work together with to inspire so many Canadian children, and she empha- property owners in the Shuswap to fi nd a way to author- sized just how important it is to take every opportun- ize docks. ity to promote science to our children, because they are the future. Orders of the Day Th is is a non-partisan issue. Will the minister work with me and other concerned citizens to press the federal Hon. M. de Jong: My fi rst duty, lest the staff chase me government to reconsider this decision? I have a petition down: please, Members, as we draw to the close of the in my offi ce if the minister would like to start by signing it. day, we are obliged to clean out our desks. It will make the Hon. N. Yamamoto: Of course we're going to work job of the very helpful and diligent staff that much easier. with our partners in industry and other levels of govern- Before we get to that point, however, there is work to ment to ensure that we maximize potential for tourism be done — in this chamber, the Committee of Supply, in British Columbia. estimates of the Ministry of Health; in the Douglas Th e provincial tourism strategy is a fi ve-year strategy Fir Room, the estimates of the Ministry of Aboriginal entitled Gaining the Edge. It will focus on government Relations; and in the Birch Room, continuing estimates and stakeholders…. of the Ministry of Technology. [1430] [1435]
Interjections. Committee of Supply
Madame Speaker: Members. Members will come to ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH order. (continued)
Hon. N. Yamamoto: Our provincial tourism strategy Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section B); R. is a fi ve-year strategy. It's called Gaining the Edge. It will Chouhan in the chair. ensure that we focus our attention on ensuring that gov- ernment, industry and our stakeholders work together Th e committee met at 2:36 p.m. to ensure that we grow our revenues in tourism to $18 billion. On Vote 28: ministry operations, $16,403,475,000 Tourism is so important to this government that the (continued). 1136 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
S. Hammell: We'll continue with a few more questions data gathering — in other words, unrelated specifi cally on mental health. Th e fi rst one I'd like to talk about is to this milestone achievement — then we will, in a rea- the mental health plan. Th e mental health plan was put sonable period of time through the plan, likely in 2014 or into eff ect in November 2010 — Healthy Minds, Healthy 2015, go and measure this level of positive mental health People. It was released then, and there are some very clear to assess our success in this area. goals and objectives to meet over the period of time. We don't have a specifi c date. But if we can't gather that It has had two updates, as I understand it — one in data through other concurrent information-gathering 2011 and one in 2012 — and the 2013 update is yet to be that is taking place, we will go out and fi nd that informa- released. Could I ask the minister when that report will tion separately in 2014 or into 2015. be released? S. Hammell: To me, it just doesn't make sense that Hon. T. Lake: The ten-year mental health plan — you have a plan with very specifi c targets, milestones for Healthy Minds, Healthy People — undergoes an annual achievement. You've laid this plan out over a period of report each year, and the second annual progress report ten years, and you have not identifi ed how you're going was approved in February of 2013. I have some bullets to measure the specifi c milestones that you've set out. here, sort of summarizing the second annual progress You have no idea whether it's through census gathering report. But to the member, there would presumably be or through some kind of survey. a third annual report that would then be approved in It certainly doesn't give anyone very much confi dence early 2014. in the process. My understanding is this plan was pub- [1440] lished or produced or presented in 2010. We're 2013, three years into it. Th is measurement should be sitting S. Hammell: Th ank you, Minister, for that clarifi cation at 70 percent or somewhere up in there if we're going to — not for me. Th ank you very much. get a ten-year 10 percent growth. Th is is your plan, the Th ere are six fairly clear objectives in terms of the plan. plan that you produced. Th ere should be some way with- I understand that the two updates were not very specifi c in the Health Ministry of measuring the milestones that in terms of the goals and objectives, in terms of achieve- you published. ment. In objective No. 1 there were 68 percent of British Th e next milestone is: "Th e number of young B.C. chil- Columbians, and you want them to report that they have dren who are vulnerable in terms of social-emotional positive mental health. Can you give me any indication development will decrease by 15 percent by 2015." Th e of the progress on that objective to date? measurement, as I understand it, was taken in 2008. It's now 2013, two years off from 2015. Have you measured Hon. T. Lake: Th ere were six milestones for achieve- it? Are you close to meeting your goals? ment to accomplish the three goals that were outlined in Th is isn't a criticism. It's just asking for information. the ten-year mental health plan. As the member men- You've set a goal. Are you near it? And, if you are not tioned, the fi rst goal was to have the number of British measuring at all, I fi nd that astonishing. Columbians who experience positive mental health to be [1450] increased by 10 percent by 2018, and that was aft er 2008, when British Columbians self-reported that 68 percent Hon. T. Lake: For the record, the fi rst indicator, which experienced positive mental health. is the number of British Columbians who experience So the goal would be that over that ten-year period, to positive mental health, that data actually comes from 2018, we would increase that to 78 percent. We are only the Canadian community health survey that is carried two years into the plan at this stage, so we don't tally or do out every two years. I apologize that we don't have for a poll or a census on this particular measure at this point. the member the latest survey, but I can provide that to Hopefully, as the program is rolled out, the number her directly. of British Columbians reporting positive mental health Th e second indicator is the number of young B.C. chil- will improve, but we don't have an interim target that is dren who are vulnerable in terms of social, emotional to be achieved at this particular time in the ten-year plan. development. Th at is taken from the early development index. Th is is performed at the kindergarten level here in S. Hammell: Minister, when do you plan to take that British Columbia every two years. Again, I do not have measurement? the latest data available. I can make that available to her [1445] at a later date. Th ese are regular surveys that are done in these areas, Hon. T. Lake: In this type of population health study, so that data should be available to us, and of course, I will sometimes the data is achievable through other census- ensure that it is available to the member. es that are done in the province. If we can't get that data from other information that is provided through other S. Hammell: Th ank you, Minister. I had assumed that Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1137 you would expect these questions, given that this is the in the Surrey area. We have challenges in these regions plan and these are your targets, so I was a bit surprised and these areas just as anyone else does. So if the minister that the information wasn't coming. I do appreciate you would get to me or through…. Well, I'll ask the minister making that eff ort to give me the information. to get to me any kind of breakdown he may have of how I'll ask you one more because it's…. I understand there that money is spent and whether it is distributed region- are six, so I would appreciate being brought up to date on ally in some kind of way that somewhat recognizes that all six. But I will ask No. 3, because it is in 2014, which there is this challenge in all districts. is just a year away. It says that 10 percent fewer B.C. stu- Th e other issue that I would like to go back to — I know dents — and I fi nd this such an amazing goal, and it's we've canvassed it before, and I'll just take a minute on it laudable — "will fi rst use alcohol or cannabis before the — is the 500 additional addiction spaces that have been age of 15" — 10 percent fewer. Th at was measured ori- promised. We did canvass that quite considerably here. I ginally in 2008. Th ere's a reporting that is on the record understand that the money is to be taken from the base that is embedded in this milestone. budget of the health authorities. I also understand that I'm wondering, given it's next year that you expect that the health authorities are going to have…. Th ere is an at- to be 10 percent fewer B.C. students, if you have any indi- tempt to bend the curve in terms of health care, and that, cation of where you are in terms of that goal. of course, is quite understandable. But I do wonder how much the health authorities Hon. T. Lake: I agree with the member. Th is is a very, I can absorb promises made outside the table and still would say, impressive goal to reach, because we all know deal with the increase in the aging population, which that the earlier adolescents start to begin drinking al- my understanding is, is going to impact about 1 percent cohol or employing the use of cannabis, the more likely on the budget. Th ere is another 1.4 in terms of popula- they are to have issues lifelong with those substances. So tion. Th ere are a number of other constant hits on the it is important to try and delay as much as possible or base budget, without additional money for new addic- prevent entirely the exposure to those two substances, tion beds or new money for preventative health or new which we know can, if used incorrectly, cause problems money from a number of other things that need to come for many people. forward or are coming forward from the provincial level. [1455] Th e consequence, I think, given that you have this kind Th e initial survey, done in 2008 on this indicator, was of Faustian arrangement with keeping the budget fi rm, performed by the McCreary Centre's B.C. adolescent having these built-in pressures…. Th e consequence has health survey. Th e other surveys we talked about were to be, it seems, cutting services, unless there are signifi - done every two years. Th is one is only done every fi ve cant savings in terms of other parts of the budget, and I years. I understand that the one now that we are rely- certainly hope that that is successful. But we see, on this ing upon is the 2013 data. It is being analyzed at the mo- side, the beginning of cuts to community services such ment, Member. We do not have that information and will as the arts spaces project, as well as ACE and a number probably not have all of the information fi nalized until of other programs. the spring of 2014. [1500] I am, however, informed by our medical offi cer of So to ask the question to the minister: does he see in health, Dr. Perry Kendall, that we are trending in the the immediate future a number of cuts to the community- right direction. Whether we can reach that stretch goal level programs? of a 10 percent decrease remains to be seen, but I'm told that the indicators look promising at the moment. Hon. T. Lake: I answered this question yesterday. I'm happy to answer it again. Th e number of community S. Hammell: I have many more questions, but I am substance-use beds has increased 196 percent from 2003 going to run out of time. Th ere are a couple of others I'd with the addition of 1,715 beds, so that's more than 171 like to mention and maybe a couple I could get you to beds per year over that ten-year period. Over the next send to me. four years we will be adding 500, which would be, on Th e fi rst one I'd like to touch on is the $18.4 million average, 125 a year. We are quite confi dent, given the that is the grant to the Community Action Initiative, I funding that will be provided to regional health author- think it is. It comes from a variety of places. If I recall ities, that they will be able to meet that goal. — over a period of time you don't necessarily remember everyone you met with for every reason — I do remem- J. Darcy: To the minister: to give you a bit of a break, ber meeting with this particular group. At that time I ex- we will move into issues related to pharmaceuticals. pressed some concern that the regional distribution of As the minister is well aware, and as we have discussed the money, this $18.4 million, was not strong. in this House, pharmaceuticals continue to be a major In particular — I don't want to sound parochial — I cost driver in the health care system, the second-highest did notice that there was very little spending at that time cost driver in the system. Certainly, on this side of the 1138 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
House, we have pressed for many years that the B.C. gov- not just for British Columbia but other provinces. We ernment take a stronger position on generic drug pricing have expressed that concern. We also understand that to, at least, match Ontario's. As you have heard me say the federal government is open to some discussions on before, we're certainly pleased that the government has how to mitigate the impact on provinces. been moving in that direction, and that is certainly be- It's diffi cult to be precise on the impact. Th ere have ginning to have an impact in driving down drug costs. been numbers tossed around. In a report from Canadian Nine months ago, in November of last year, then Press, for instance, officials at Industry Canada and Health Minister Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid said the prov- Health Canada looked at the proposed patent term res- incial savings — this is referring to generic drug pricing toration system the EU demand included and said that — will be reinvested in the B.C. health care system, some it could cost anywhere between $14.7 million and $1.95 of it in PharmaCare. billion, depending on the fi nal patent term that's negoti- My fi rst question to the minister is: are the savings ated. As you can imagine, there's a huge, huge variation from generics being redirected into the health budget as in the potential impact on provincial PharmaCare costs. originally promised or into general revenue? We expect that future launches of new generic drugs — in other words, those coming off patent and becom- Hon. T. Lake: Any savings that accrue to the Health ing generic — on average, would be a $21 million aggre- Ministry, obviously, are utilized by the government as gate savings for PharmaCare. Obviously, delayed entry of a whole. Th at is the Finance Minister who is respon- new generics due to extension of the patent regime could sible for that, and then the Finance Minister, in creat- eliminate some, if not all, of those $21 million a year. ing a budget, allocates a certain amount of money to the Health Ministry. Any savings that we accrue allow us to J. Darcy: Can you give me that range again? continue to have increases year over year — over the next three years an additional 2.4 billion new dollars added to Hon. T. Lake: Th e information I have is that it could the health care budget. Without those savings in phar- be between $14.7 million and $1.95 billion, meaning maceuticals, it would be extremely diffi cult, if not im- there's a huge range depending on where this agreement possible, to see those increases of that magnitude in the lands. If the patent protection was extended six months, health care budget. versus ten years, you can imagine that the quantum is quite diff erent. J. Darcy: I'd asked about a specifi c commitment that We do expect that new drugs that currently are brand the previous Health Minister had made in this regard. names, that are coming off patent protection to become You're saying that that's not necessarily the case? Th e generics, would save us about $21 million a year as they money might come back to health care but not neces- come off of the patent protection. Obviously, as that sarily? date is extended, if that is the case in this new agree- ment, some, if not all, of that $21 million savings to the Hon. T. Lake: Without those savings in the Pharma- PharmaCare program could be lost. Care budget, it would be very diffi cult for the Finance Th at's why we, along with the members opposite, are Minister to add $2.4 billion back to the health care min- concerned about this. We are discussing this with our istry over the next four years. Th ose savings allow us to federal counterparts. We'll continue to pursue our inter- have an increase, so there's a straight line between sav- ests, on behalf of British Columbia taxpayers, to ensure ings that we make in the largest ministry in government that any impact of this agreement is mitigated by the fed- and the increases that we are able to make year over year eral government. as an investment in the health of British Columbians. J. Darcy: I understand the government is now express- J. Darcy: Th ank you to the minister. We spoke brief- ing concern and is in discussions and working, hopefully, ly yesterday about the comprehensive economic trade with other Premiers in order to try and address this issue. agreement with the European Union, particularly as it Perhaps the minister can enlighten us on this. I under- relates to generic drugs. My fi rst question to the min- stand that what the government is advocating at this time ister is: what is the latest calculation on the savings that to the federal government is what you refer to as mitiga- British Columbia will lose if patent protections are ex- tion of some of the potential negative impacts, some of tended under the comprehensive economic trade agree- the costly impacts, and that essentially it would compen- ment with the European Union? sate provinces — but eff ectively, also, serve as a subsidy [1505] of sorts to the international drug companies, who are the ones who've been lobbying very, very strongly for these Hon. T. Lake: As we mentioned yesterday, this poten- changes that would have a detrimental eff ect in Canada. tial trade agreement between Canada and the European It seems to me it's problematic on a number of levels, Union has caused some concern for British Columbia — and that's something that you've heard expressed from Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1139
this side of the House. Surely, the goal of our actions here the fi lm industry, perhaps we could move those to an- is not to allow the international drug companies to get other room. what they want in this entire process. I'll move on to another question. There has been [1510] considerable focus on reducing generic drug prices — Also, what appears to be being advanced by the gov- certainly, a very, very important part of the picture of ernment, by the Premier, in these discussions would have reducing drug costs. However, there have also been long- no consequences, would not solve problems for individ- standing recommendations, including from the 2006 uals whose drug costs are going up, whose premiums are Auditor General report, that also apply to negotiating going up, whose co-pays are going up, whose deductibles better prices from brand-name pharmaceutical manu- are going up; or health plans, drug plans, where co-pays, facturers. deductibles, and so on, and costs are also going up. Can the minister please provide an update on the gov- I wonder if you could explain in some more detail, ernment's eff orts to reduce brand-name drug prices? Minister, what the government's position is on this. What [1515] position is being advanced at the federal level and hope- fully, then, in those negotiations with the EU? Does the Hon. T. Lake: Th ere has been considerable eff ort on minister not agree that it really does not solve the prob- the part of provinces and territories to work towards a lem for a whole lot of people whose drug costs are go- pan-Canadian drug-pricing system. At one time it looked ing up? promising that the federal government would actually come on board and we would have a truly pan-Canadian Hon. T. Lake: I can't help but point out a little bit of pricing policy. irony in the member's comments about subsidizing cor- As the member is likely aware, brand-name drugs in porations when not less than an hour ago in this House Canada are higher, in many instances, than they are in they were recommending increased subsidies to multi- other countries. Obviously, the more people — in terms national fi lm corporations, who already benefi t from a of provinces, territories, the size of the market — gives $330 million labour benefi t here in British Columbia. you greater bargaining power to bring those prices down. We have expressed our concern about this negotia- Not having the federal government's commitment, the tion. Th e Ministry of Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training Premiers of the Council of the Federation, the provinces and Labour is engaged with the federal government to and territories, have affi rmed their support and commit- represent B.C.'s interests. Our pharmaceutical services ment to a pan-Canadian drug-pricing alliance. Th at's led division is providing that minister with advice on phar- by Ontario and Nova Scotia. Th rough that alliance, we maceutical patent issues. have agreed to accelerate and expand the pan-Canadian We have expressed our concern that if a trade agree- pricing alliance on brand-name drugs, and that work is ment were negotiated that signifi cantly impacted drug being led by Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia. costs, fi nancial compensation would be required from As of June 2013 the pan-Canadian drug-pricing al- the federal government. liance has completed negotiations for 11 brand-name I'm sure that the member, along with this side of the products and is actively reviewing 19 others. B.C. led fi ve House, can express her concern to the federal govern- of those 11 completed negotiations. ment, which is the level of government responsible for Work is ongoing. I can tell you that we will continue to this. We will continue to advocate on behalf of British work with our provincial and territorial counterparts. We Columbians to protect the savings that we hope to gain have another meeting coming up in October in Ontario, from drugs coming off of patent protection. and we'll continue to try to add more of the commonly used brand-name drugs that we can add to this alliance J. Darcy: I didn't think that we were…. I fi nd those so that we can continue to drive costs down. comments quite unnecessary. I could go back and talk…. With respect, Minister, I could pull out and try and replay J. Darcy: To the minister: when you refer to a certain the tape or the transcript of the tape of what the Premier number of specifi c drugs, is that what is referred to as said on Th e Bill Good Show about the reason the gov- product-listing agreements? Or is that something that's ernment's position had shift ed was in order to protect being done provincially? private interests, in order to protect the pharmaceutical drug companies. I don't think that particularly advances Hon. T. Lake: Product listings are done by individ- our discussion today. ual provinces. What we're trying to engage in is a discussion about drug costs, their impacts on the health care system. It was J. Darcy: To the minister: can you please share with us, a question about what position this government is taking then, information on how many product listings are in in those federal discussions and then federal negotiations. place now and how many are under negotiation? If the minister wants to talk about shipbuilding or [1520] 1140 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
Hon. T. Lake: Product listing agreements are negotia- costs as well as costs to the health care budgets of drugs tions that occur between a drug company and individual are very, very serious considerations. provinces. It does involve a price negotiation and in- In the absence of drug evaluation programs that are volves the Drug Benefi t Council, which would look at the essential to promoting proper and informed drug util- effi cacy and eff ectiveness and appropriateness of the drug. ization, can the minister assure British Columbians that A world price is sort of a public price, but each prov- their co-payments and deductibles are not going to be ince will negotiate its own price with the diff erent drug going up? companies. Th at is a confi dential negotiation that goes [1525] on. As the member can imagine, in order to obtain the best price, that information is kept confi dential, so I can't Hon. T. Lake: We have, as the member referenced, disclose how many product listing agreements we have canvassed the issue of the therapeutics initiative and the ongoing or in process at the moment. drug approval process here in British Columbia. I would say that our program here in B.C. is very thorough in J. Darcy: Th e reason for asking the question was that terms of looking at diff erent drugs and deciding whether this arose in the public accounts briefing. There was to list them on the PharmaCare program. something expressed there by the minister responsible We rely on the common drug review, which is a nation- about product listing agreements. I wasn't asking about al independent process that looks at the effi cacy of any which specifi c ones they were, just a sense of how many new drug in Canada against similar drugs and whether product listing agreements were actually already in place. the drug provides value for money. Th at is a national pro- cess and is then followed by the ministry's Drug Benefi t Hon. T. Lake: I'm not clear on the reference to public Council, which reviews the proposed drug by looking, accounts, and I'm unsure if I'm able to disclose that in- again, at all clinical evidence regarding its safety and formation to the member, so I will perhaps arrange to get cost-eff ectiveness. the proper reference from the member to public accounts, Th e therapeutics initiative certainly has done some and then we can make sure that we have the ability to re- very good work in this province and, I'm sure, will con- lease that information. If we can, then we will. tinue to do so. Once we complete the necessary work that we need to do around data management in the Ministry J. Darcy: Th ank you to the minister. I'm not exactly of Health following the Privacy Commissioner's report, aware of what they said in public accounts either, but I we will hope to be able to employ the skills of the thera- know that it was about product listing agreements, and it peutics initiative as well as other worthy researchers and seemed relevant to our discussion about drugs and drug experts in health care, particularly when it comes to prices. So I thought I would ask that question. evaluating best value for money, best value for effi cacy Continuing on, we've already spoken of the critical for the drugs listed in our PharmaCare program. importance of adopting a tougher position on generic drug pricing. Drug expenditures are, as you are aware, J. Darcy: Th e minister refers to the excellent work of the function of both price and utilization. Th e 2013-14 the federal common drug review, which British Columbia budget identifi es that a 1 percent change in utilization became part of back in 2003. As you have said, it evalu- will result in a $10 million increase in the PharmaCare ates new drugs before they come on the market. budget. Th e facts will show that in fact this federal common Over the past 18 years our province has become a cen- drug review used the work of the therapeutics initiative tre of excellence in rigorous drug evaluation research that to serve as an example when they were getting set up and determines the effi cacy of treatments so that PharmaCare in the practices that were being put in place, because in covers and physicians prescribe drugs that are safe, eff ect- fact it was best practices in drug evaluations that have ive and provide maximum value for money. been carried out by the therapeutics initiative. Th e work of the therapeutics initiative and of the min- [1530] istry's pharmaceutical services division is a key reason I am not particularly interested in going backwards on why British Columbia has become a leader in evidence- this issue, because we could spend an awful lot of time based decision-making and why our province consist- on the history on this particular fi le. We're not going to ently records the lowest drug costs per capita among the be able to erase statements that were made in the past provinces. However, as we have discussed on other oc- by the Premier. casions, including in question period over the past year, However, what the minister can do, going forward, is this kind of drug evaluation has been stalled. resume the therapeutics initiative's very important work Th e concern here, Minister, is about both the safety in order to help to ensure that the drugs are made safe of drugs and also about cost of drugs. Safety for British for British Columbians and that we get the best bang for Columbians — also, as I mentioned on another question our health care dollars. — and public and private sector drug plans and individual My question to the minister is: do you agree that drug Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1141
evaluation work needs to recommence in this province sioner's recommendations. if PharmaCare is going to meet its budget target and if [1535] you're going to be able to meet your fi duciary respon- sibility to protect patients, and will you meet with the J. Darcy: Th ank you to the minister. Can I clarify, be- therapeutics initiative in order to move forward in the cause there's considerable controversy swirling around interests of safer, more eff ective drugs and reduced costs? this: is it not the case that the therapeutics initiative uses de-identifi ed data for post-market surveillance studies, Hon. T. Lake: As I have said in this House previously, for those real-life, real-world evaluations of drugs — de- there was concern expressed on behalf of patients that identifi ed data? were concerned that the existing approval process for drugs in British Columbia, using the therapeutics initia- Hon. T. Lake: Th e therapeutics initiative and those tive as the sole arbiter, was taking far too long — in some who work with the therapeutics initiative use a combina- cases, 2½ years longer than those drugs were approved in tion of identifi able and de-identifi ed data. the rest of Canada. In fact, researchers with the arthritis centre at UBC were critical of the therapeutics initiative J. Darcy: Well, I'll seek further information and pur- and the length of time it was taking, denying eff ective sue that at another time with the minister if I have fur- drugs to reduce symptoms in arthritis suff erers in the ther questions. province of British Columbia. I'd like to move on to the issue of Champix. As we A task force was struck that looked at the issue of ap- have discussed in this House and as has been the sub- provals to ensure that an effi cacious, effi cient, timely ject of considerable controversy as well in the province, system was put in place. Th at system was put in place the Premier, as we're aware, in her leadership campaign following the recommendations of that pharmacology promised a smoking cessation program. My question to task force. the minister is: what research did the Premier provide Th e therapeutics initiative still can play a role. Once cabinet about her proposal? we have ensured that we have met the challenge of mak- I've been reviewing some of the materials that were ing sure data is secure, the therapeutics initiative cer- produced at the time, and it seems highly unusual that a tainly can be part of that process. In fact, my deputy will politician would actually champion a couple of particular be meeting with the therapeutics initiative over the next drugs in advocacy for a smoking cessation program. So several weeks as we move through this process to ensure my question is: what research did the Premier provide to that we provide British Columbians with the best avail- cabinet about her proposal? able evidence in the drug approval process and the best protection for their health care data. Hon. T. Lake: I would be breaching my cabinet confi - dentiality if I were to answer that question. J. Darcy: Th ank you to the minister for that answer. You referred to a review regarding privacy issues — the J. Darcy: I haven't been in this House long enough to internal review into the data breaches, which com- know how to frame the question in order to get an an- menced over a year ago, I believe. Can the minister tell swer to it. But surely, it is a legitimate question to the us when that internal review will conclude? Minister of Health about whether evidence was provid- ed to government. Hon. T. Lake: I'll read this again, because it was read Let me put it that way. Was evidence provided to gov- earlier, and perhaps the member wasn't in the room. ernment, to the Ministry of Health, to prove the eff ective- "In May 2013 the investigation unit started phase 2 of the work, ness of this particular drug before it became the focus of focusing on researchers' and contractors' data management and contracting practices. Contractors, researchers have been identi- a major campaign? I'm not asking you to breach cabinet fi ed as part of the phase 2 review. Letters are now being sent to confi dentiality. I'm asking: what evidence was presented the fi rst group of contractors that have been reviewed to ensure to the Ministry of Health before this was undertaken? that data management practices are appropriately in place and to confi rm so in writing to the ministry. Once that is completed, they will be able to then apply for future ministry data. Hon. T. Lake: If the member is asking what process "Th e ministry is also going to be engaging in discussions with Champix went through to be considered for use in British smaller groups of researchers to discuss concerns identifi ed relat- Columbia, I can certainly answer that. Champix is a drug ing to data access. Contractors, researchers starting this fall will that is approved for sale in Canada. It is one that went be required to participate in a mandatory on-line training session through the common drug review, which we talked about focusing on information management, security and privacy. A compliance audit program is also being implemented by the min- earlier. Health Canada reviewed all the available research istry to monitor data access practices." on Champix before B.C. decided to cover this drug under We are balancing the need to open up data, which is the provincial formulary. paramount in terms of research, with the need to ensure Th is is a drug that has helped many people quit smok- that the data is protected, as per the Privacy Commis- ing. I've heard from many people that have used this 1142 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
particular drug and been able to break a habit which we people than the relatively few people in British Columbia know is one of the most preventable causes of mortality that had been on the drug for a short period of time when and morbidity in British Columbia. the therapeutics initiative suggested their study, which So this drug has gone through the safety and effi cacy had been preceded by our request to the federal organ- procedures that are put in place for drugs that are listed ization to do a study. in Canada. It's used in over six diff erent provinces and Th e member opposite wants to draw a distinction be- territories in Canada. As I mentioned, the drug is cur- tween the kind of analysis that is ongoing on the part of rently being studied by the Canadian Institutes of Health the ministry and the one that the TI proposed. But it is, Research's Drug Safety and Eff ectiveness Network. Th at again, looking at a wide range of studies that have been research was proposed by our ministry in August of 2011, done with this drug, with people that have been using and we're looking forward to the completion of that re- this drug in jurisdictions around the world, not limited search, which we hope to have later this year. to just British Columbia. [1540] We feel that it is probably important to get a very large sample in order to have statistically relevant information J. Darcy: I was hoping that you might give me a dif- that will benefi t British Columbians. We look forward to ferent response than you did when we raised this ques- that study when it comes later this year. tion earlier in the House, because as we pointed out in the House, the study that is being undertaken is in fact J. Darcy: Th e minister says there aren't suffi cient num- more in the nature of a literature review than the kind of bers of people in British Columbia using the drug to do real-life, real-world study of the impact on people who an evaluation in British Columbia. Can the minister tell have been using this drug for some time. us how many people are using the drug? Th e fi gures When I asked a question about this in the House a that I have say that there are now over 45,000 British couple of weeks ago, the minister stated that it was not Columbians using smoking-cessation drugs. And there possible to do that kind of evaluation of a drug because were two drugs in particular that were championed by it hadn't been in use for a long enough period of time. the Premier. However, the government's own documents state that by [1545] April 2012 over 20,000 people had received the prescrip- tions for smoking-cessation drugs, yet the therapeutics Hon. T. Lake: Th e smoking cessation program, which initiative's proposal to do a real-life, real-world evalua- has been widely received and has benefi ted a lot of British tion was rejected in June 2012. Columbians, started in September of 2011, and 131,000 Th ere are now over 45,000 British Columbians taking people participated. That's remarkable. Even though smoking-cessation drugs. So the issue here is not whether British Columbia has the lowest rates of smoking in all or not we want to promote programs for people to quit of Canada, it's nice to see that so many people want to smoking. Th at's absolutely not the question. Th e ques- quit that habit. Of those 131,000, about 40,000 to 45,000 tion is about the effi cacy of a particular drug and about were prescribed Champix. the harmful eff ects that have caused certain countries to Th e comment that I made earlier about not having stop using it and that have been the subject of lawsuits enough, the data…. Of course, you need to have people in several jurisdictions. on a particular product for a certain length of time if you're going to evaluate all of the eff ects of that particu- Th e Chair: Member, was there a question? lar drug. Using a meta-analysis of a much larger popula- tion study allows that to happen. J. Darcy: Well, my question is this, then, to the min- ister: has the ministry prepared a legal analysis to assess J. Darcy: I'm sure we will be discussing this subject the risk that the B.C. government has exposed itself to again on future occasions. by not completing a thorough drug evaluation assess- Let me move on to the Alzheimer's drug therapy initia- ment of Champix prior to listing it in PharmaCare and tive. As the minister is no doubt aware, Alzheimer's drugs aft erwards? are seen as a potentially lucrative market for brand-name drug companies, but questions on real-world eff ective- Hon. T. Lake: At the risk of being repetitive, this is a ness still need to be answered. legal drug that has been approved by Health Canada and Increasing post-market surveillance was one of the the national common drug review. Six diff erent provinces key recommendations made by the Auditor General in use and list this drug to help people combat smoking. his 2006 report on PharmaCare. Having the therapeut- A study that is currently being done by the University ics initiative conduct real-world safety and effective- of York is a meta-analysis that looks at a whole wide ness studies as part of the Drug Safety and Eff ectiveness range of papers and that in fact examines the eff ect of Network helped to meet this recommendation, as did this drug on people. Yet it uses a whole, wider range of PharmaCare's decision to commence the Alzheimer's Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1143
drug therapy initiative, which was designed to investi- J. Darcy: One other question in the area of drugs. Th e gate safety, eff ectiveness and cost-eff ectiveness of drugs 2006 Auditor General report also endorsed programs for dementia in patients in British Columbia. that promote better prescribing among physicians, using Given that we do not have…. Since the fi ring of the the therapeutics initiative's letters and programs that ministry employees and the termination of certain con- were being started to provide physicians direct feedback tractors from the Ministry of Health as part of the data on their prescribing patterns. Th e savings generated from breach investigation, what is the latest plan on how these these programs were then invested back into patient drugs will be evaluated? care and, at times, have been seen as possible sources of cooperative gains. Hon. T. Lake: Alzheimer's is a terrible disease that, How have physicians responded to the recent loss of of course, is the focus of our eff orts when we're deal- these kinds of prescribing education programs? And ing with elder care. I think all of us have known friends, given the government position pending negotiations family, colleagues that have been stricken by Alzheimer's, with the B.C. Medical Association that will take place in sometimes at a very young age, which makes it all the a very constrained fi scal framework, is there considera- more tragic. tion being made to restart and to expand these programs? Th e Alzheimer's drug therapy initiative was launched in October of 2007 to look at evidence to provide cover- Hon. T. Lake: Th e program the member is referring to age for a class of drugs known as cholinesterase inhib- is the education for quality improvement in patient care itors. As part of this study, fi ve research studies were program or EQIP, and this began in 2006. It provided initiated. Th ose were the caregiver appraisal study; the personalized, confi dential prescribing portraits and edu- seniors medication study; the clinical meaningfulness in cational messages to about 4,500 family physicians in B.C. Alzheimer disease treatment scale and overall patient as- It would look at clinical evidence, cost-eff ectiveness and sessment rating; the utilization of cost project; and fi nally, improved health outcomes. the clinical epidemiological project. It was, in fact, a partnership between the Ministry of Two of those studies remain on hold due to the current Health, the B.C. Medical Association, UBC and UVic. In investigation ongoing into the data breach in the ministry. 2009 it was directed through UBC to the Chair in Patient We hope to be able to allow those to continue in the near Safety, so members of the therapeutics initiative would future with the eff orts that I detailed earlier to the mem- have participated. ber. We are hoping that we will be able to continue those Eight drug and disease topics were developed in the studies and complete those studies so that coverage for contract term. We understand that the feedback was patients will be able to be made. Decisions are expected quite positive. Physicians like to have this. in early 2014. [1555] [1550] Since the program has ended, we haven't heard back from the BCMA. Th ere's been no uproar, if you like, with J. Darcy: Th ank you to the minister for the answer. the hiatus in the program, but we will be assessing the If I could move on to the issue of academic detailing. impact of the EQIP program and determine whether a As the minister knows, on this side of the House we're similar initiative will be continued. very supportive of academic detailing programs. I'd like to ask the minister if he could provide an update on the Th e Chair: Minister. province's academic detailing programs, including what the current level of staffi ng is, what the current budget is J. Darcy: You called me minister. and program initiatives. Th e Chair: Oh, Member. Enjoy the moment. Hon. T. Lake: Academic detailing, as the member likely is very aware, is an educational strategy. We have a J. Darcy: Now, I'm not sure if that's a promotion, but clinical pharmacist who visits a physician or other health thank you, hon. Chair. [Laughter.] care professionals in their practice setting and who will If I could go back to the previous question that I had provide objective, balanced, evidence-informed drug in- asked about academic detailing. I must admit that I was formation on the best prescribing practices. expecting that the numbers would be greater. I don't have Funding is given to regional health authorities for up the fi gures at my disposal, but my understanding is that to 10.2 full-time-equivalent pharmacists. Th at's about there are hundreds of people employed by the pharma- two per health authority — although I wouldn't want ceutical industry at any point in time that are out visiting to be the 0.2 pharmacist — and supports personnel and family doctors, promoting and doing their own form of equipment for visiting up to 2,000 health care profession- education around drugs. als for each topic. We set aside $1.7 million each year for Would the minister be able to provide the fi gure for the three-year budget for this service. how many of those "industry-employed educators" are 1144 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
out meeting with family doctors to promote their par- J. Darcy: I understand that the price tag for the con- ticular pharmaceuticals? tract is $842 million over ten years.
Hon. T. Lake: No, we don't track the number of phar- [D. Horne in the chair.] maceutical detailers. I'm certainly familiar with the prac- tice. It happens in many diff erent professions, and I have Th e contract would also entail moving approximately been on both sides of that. But we don't keep statistics 92 information management staff from the public sec- as to the number of detailers that work for pharmaceut- tor to IBM, so that is said to save $285 million over ten ical companies. years. Th erefore, the net cost is estimated at $557 million. Having said that, I know that physicians in British I understand that in a document that was prepared for Columbia are very bright and able to process a lot of in- government a number of months ago — a document that formation and make the best choices for their patients. I understand was leaked — which addressed the issue of Th ey rely on many diff erent sources to make those clin- the risk profi le of the program, out of 13 categories with ical decisions. Whether it's from pharmaceutical com- titles like "Finance," "Governance," "Achievable expecta- panies, whether it's from the two types of programs that tions" and "Timelines," all but one are listed as high risk. we mentioned earlier, they certainly look into diff erent Only the category titled "Political" receives a "moderate sources of information. risk" rating. While I've got this, I wanted to maybe elaborate on So my questions to the minister are: is the government some of the topics that were launched through the B.C. moving ahead with negotiations on the CST program, provincial academic detailing service. Th ose were on and are you still pursuing the program in all its aspects the human papillomavirus vaccine; anti-coagulation even with the report that speaks about high risks in a and atrial fi brillation; antibiotics in community practice, number of areas? which we know is a real concern; inhaled medications Th e Chair: Minister. for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease; osteoporosis; statins and cardiovascular disease; and acute otitis media, Hon. T. Lake: Th ank you, hon. Chair, and welcome which is an ear infection. back. The Vancouver health organizations Vancouver J. Darcy: I certainly agree with the minister that our Coastal Health and Providence Health Care along with physicians in this province are second to none and are the Provincial Health Services Authority formed the in- indeed very smart, as the minister said. formation management and information technology ser- I also count several family doctors among my person- vices, which is a consolidated entity that is undergoing al friends, who also will say, anecdotally, that they are this clinical and systems transformation. overwhelmed with information from pharmaceutical Th e member mentioned that the total cost is estimated companies. It is a discussion I'd like to pursue with the at $842 million over ten years. However, the contract the minister at some point, because the fi gure that sticks in member is referring to with IBM is a value of $188 mil- my head is somewhere in the range of 800 or 900 phar- lion over ten years, so it's a larger project than the one maceutical detailers that are out there at any point in time. that is with IBM. I have a few questions on another subject, and then The negotiations concluded and the contract was I will turn it over to some of my colleagues, who have a signed in the spring of this year. But it is a staged contract, number of individual questions for the minister. so not all of the funds are dispensed at the same time. In Th ese questions pertain to the contract negotiations fact, that allows evaluation and a staging of the contract for the clinical and systems transformation program — based on a positive evaluation. CST, I believe, is the acronym for it — which has been referred to in some earlier discussions, a proposal to re- J. Darcy: Can you repeat again for me the estimated form health care protocols and to integrate technology cost of the contract? widely across the health care system. I understand that it's a ten-year contract between Hon. T. Lake: It's $188 million over ten years. Again, IBM and three health authorities — Vancouver Coastal, that's a staged contract so that if performance is deemed Providence Health and the Provincial Health Services positive, then it would go up the entire way. But there are Authority. If I understand it correctly, the contract's price off -ramps, if you like, to that contract as it moves over tag is $842 million. that ten-year period. Are we doing a shift change? [1600] J. Darcy: I wonder if the minister could speak in a bit more detail about what measures are being taken to Th e Chair: Continue, Member. manage the risks. I understand that the program will Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1145
supposedly save money across the health care system by seems like two or three weeks ago, that we talked about standardizing technology infrastructure and the many the $72 million. I thought that was strictly Coastal, which clinical protocols and business processes, but how will you're saying also covers Providence. Th is is for Coastal, success be measured, and what is IBM's track record with Providence and PHSA. Is that right? this kind of contract? [1610] [1605] Hon. T. Lake: Th e $72 million in each of '13-14, '14- Hon. T. Lake: While IBM is the lead contractor, they 15 and '15-16 is capital money that comes from operat- are also partnered with Deloitte. Both of these organ- ing, at the request of these organizations. I'm told that 80 izations have a very strong global track record on clin- percent of that is from Vancouver Coastal. Th e remaining ical transformation projects. But let me say that a capital 20 percent is from the PHSA. project plan for this project is being fi nalized and will be available in the fall. As with all projects over $50 million, J. Darcy: Th ank you, Minister, but I just want to really a capital project plan is initiated, as mentioned, and that understand the fi gures. My understanding is that there is just being fi nalized. was a PowerPoint presentation — apparently, a leaked The ministry has also established a project board, document — that refers to a holdback of $386 million. Is which is chaired by the ministry's chief administrative of- that over several years? Is that what $386 million refers fi cer, with participation from the CEOs of the Provincial to? Can you please clarify? Health Services Authority, Vancouver health authority and Providence Health Care. A highly skilled and experi- Hon. T. Lake: Well, we have three-year rolling budgets. enced project director is overseeing the management of I talked about the $72 million in '13-14, '14-15 and '15-16 the project on a day-to-day basis. that, at the request of these organizations, is taken from operating and put into capital. But that would extend out J. Darcy: Th ank you, Minister. One last question on in further years, as well, to meet the cost of this project. this. My understanding of the funding for this is that So when we go out to '16-17 and '17-18, that money the Ministry of Health has created a mechanism to hold would be taken from operating and put into capital for back cash fl ow in order to support the capital require- this project, as it is being done in the current three-year ments of the project — proposes to hold back $386 mil- program. lion by adjusting budgets within those health authorities that are involved. J. Darcy: Th ank you, Minister. I think we'll leave it at Can you explain if that is the case, and what is meant that for now. While my colleagues are asking their ques- by "mechanisms to hold back the cash fl ow"? Th is is in tions, I may think of some others and come back to you. a PowerPoint presentation, apparently, on the subject. But otherwise, I want to thank you for the detail with which you have answered some of my questions and for Hon. T. Lake: The $72 million we talked about, I beginning a discussion that we will have on many other believe, yesterday that came from Vancouver Coastal occasions. I certainly want to thank your staff and all of Health…. Th e request was to use that $72 million from the shift s that have come and gone in the course of these operating and put that into capital. Th at is the funds that few days. the member refers to. S. Robinson: I have a question for the minister re- J. Darcy: I thought that was probably the case garding the future of Eagle Ridge Hospital, which is with Coastal, but there are two other health…. Well, the hospital that serves my community. Given that Providence Health and PHSA are involved as well. Can Coquitlam is a designated high-growth community ex- you talk about the money that is the mechanism for hold- pected, by the regional growth strategy that we've signed ing back the cash fl ow for those health authorities, and on to, to grow by 50 percent over the next 20 years, is this what the amounts are? Well, I know Providence is affi li- hospital…? It has become more of a community hospital, ated to Coastal, but…. focusing less on acute care and more on rehabilitation for members of my community in the eastern suburbs. Hon. T. Lake: Th at $72 million encompasses both of Does this government see this hospital as more of a those health authorities, and as the member mentioned, rehab centre or more of a hospital to take care of acute Providence Health Care is affi liated under the budget of conditions? Vancouver Coastal. [1615]
J. Darcy: But PHSA is in the mix as well. So does that Hon. T. Lake: Eagle Ridge Hospital is a fi ne hospital. I $72 million cover all three? I understood from our…. I had some experience years ago, and I know that they take think it was actually two days ago, Minister, although it care of people very well there. It does have acute care ser- 1146 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013 vices. It has an emergency room. It does have acute care suggested — then they would be directed to the hospital beds. It does do a certain number of surgeries. most appropriate to handle that patient's needs. Certainly, the tertiary hospital for that region of the I take the member's point. Given our province and Lower Mainland would be the Royal Columbian Hospital, given the relatively sparse population and the tremen- which off ers, obviously, the higher level of care. As men- dous distances that we travel…. No one understands that tioned yesterday, the redevelopment of Royal Columbian more than the Minister of Jobs — or me, for that matter. is something that I know Fraser Health and the members Someone in my riding in Blue River, for instance — if of the community are looking forward to. they were having a medical emergency and if an ambu- I think we mentioned yesterday that there's a notional lance were to travel down to Royal Inland Hospital in allocation of $700 million for the redevelopment of Royal Kamloops, it would be a three-hour drive, which is very Columbian Hospital to serve the people of the Tri-Cities daunting. Fortunately, we have helicopter service in most and New Westminster area. parts of the province to reduce that travel time. But I can assure the member that Fraser Health plans S. Robinson: Th ank you very much for the response. the services that are provided in the various tertiary I want to confi rm with the minister that I, too, have re- centres as well as the smaller hospitals in the region to ceived service, and very fi ne service, at the Eagle Ridge make sure that patients are directed to the most appro- Hospital. It is my community hospital. But I've also been priate centre. told that a lot of the services are now nine-to-fi ve services in terms of availability. L. Popham: I'm going to have four questions on Lyme Th ere are certain tests…. When you're in an acute state disease, if the minister is ready. like I was about a couple years ago, they needed to keep The B.C. complex chronic diseases clinic was an- me on painkillers because for the tests that I needed there nounced 2¼ years ago, the day after the release of a would only be staff at 9 a.m. Th ere's not really, from an report by a senior public health executive identifying emergency perspective, around-the-clock ability to get fl awed diagnostics, lack of physician knowledge and re- the care that you need. strictive treatment guidelines as barriers to people with Additionally, with RCH, and I have heard about the an- Lyme disease. nouncements to rebuild, given the transportation issues Chronic Lyme disease figured prominently in the that exist in the area…. Certainly, folks in my region feel rationale given for setting up this clinic at UBC, which like when you're having a heart attack, getting to RCH was intended to focus on developing new forms of diag- can be really fraught with challenges. But you can't go nosis and treatment. When discussing it with the then to Eagle Ridge, because they'll just send you to RCH. So Health Minister in 2011, he said that a primary purpose there are some real challenges. I want to know if the min- of the clinic was to address the uncertainty or debate ister will be spending any time to explore some of these about best practices for Lyme disease and that the work challenges moving forward. of the clinic was intended to "add to the body of evidence [1620] that will help resolve that." Aft er more than two years can the minister tell me how Hon. T. Lake: I'm looking forward, once the session is many chronic Lyme disease patients are in treatment at over in about an hour and a half…. that clinic today? What research is being conducted to develop better Lyme disease testing? And what treatment Interjection. protocols are being followed at the clinic for chronic Lyme disease? Hon. T. Lake: One hour for us, yes, but we have a few [1625] procedures to go through. I will begin tours, having the honour to be the new Hon. T. Lake: Th e complex chronic diseases program Health Minister for the province of B.C., and on the is located at B.C. Women's Hospital and is processing list of facilities I'm looking forward to touring is Royal referrals from physicians. It has been accepting patient Columbian Hospital. referrals for the clinic and only began seeing patients in Regional health authorities plan their facilities being May of this year. We're only a couple months into the very mindful of what the member is talking about — the program. capacity of the tertiary hospitals, the high level of care Patients can be referred by a general practitioner, a that's required and the placement of regional facilities. nurse practitioner or a specialist physician. So a whole Th ey also work closely with the B.C. Ambulance Service. variety of medical practitioners can refer a patient that is For instance, if a patient is assessed, needing a par- exhibiting complex chronic disease symptoms. ticular level of care, then the Ambulance Service would Th ere are a variety of diseases that can have a similar be directed to the appropriate facility. So if someone is array of clinical signs that may lead to a referral. Tick- having a heart attack — if that's what the assessment borne illnesses such as Lyme disease, as the member Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1147
mentions, are one of those; myalgic encephalomyelitis, that clinicians are free to treat patients beyond limits set otherwise known as chronic fatigue syndrome, is an- out in the guidelines? Or will he confi rm that the clinic's other; and fi bromyalgia syndrome. mandate is no longer to create an experimental setting to Th e clinic has only been seeing patients for the last generate new experience and new knowledge? couple months. Th e patients that go there undergo a thorough history-taking and diagnostic work, includ- Hon. T. Lake: Th ere's considerable discussion and ing genomic as well as standard testing, to look at the controversy around this array of diseases, including underlying cause as well as to evaluate the patients' im- Lyme disease, as the member mentions. I think that a mune systems. lot of that controversy surrounds the diff erent types of At this point, because we are only a couple of months tests that are used. into it, I do not have any data as to how many of those In British Columbia, typically, the protocols that are 65 patients have been diagnosed defi nitively with each recommended by the B.C. Centre for Disease Control of those diff erent types of syndromes that can lead to a are followed. However, because it is a clinical disease, ob- similar array of signs. viously, the more indicators you have as to what you are treating, the better. So if you have a positive test along L. Popham: Patient organizations were assured that with clinical disease, that would certainly bolster the case people previously denied treatment for chronic Lyme dis- for a particular diagnosis. ease would gain access to novel forms of care at the new However, it is not necessary to have a positive test if clinic. Th e existing B.C. guidelines refuse to care for any- the physician feels the clinical signs are aligned with the one who does not show positive on the two-tiered Lyme particular diagnosis. Treatment could be done on the test, limit antibiotic therapy to a maximum of four weeks basis of making a clinical diagnosis. and deny the existence of chronic Lyme disease entirely. Th e centre for chronic disease at Women's Hospital So a clinic mandated to develop a novel treatment is trying to go beyond the normal testing that has been would have to diagnose and treat beyond these restrict- done and is, in the standard protocols, using genomic ive guidelines in order to gain any new experience and types of tests. Th at is the novel approach that the cen- contribute any new knowledge. Can the minister tell me tre is taking. if clinicians at this clinic will be allowed to clinically diag- I can't comment on individual cases, of course, but nose Lyme disease and treat patients with antibiotics be- there is nothing that would limit any physician from yond the limit laid down by the IDSA? treating on the basis of a clinical diagnosis.
Hon. T. Lake: Physicians currently have the ability to L. Popham: Th is will be my fi nal question or statement. prescribe long-term antibiotic therapy, should they con- I know the minister is a member of a profession that is sider it in the best interest of their patients. Physicians free from all of this induced controversy about Lyme dis- have been reluctant to do so in some cases because ease. In fact, if you are a vet, you don't have to adhere to long-term clinical trials have failed to show a net bene- the same standards, and you have a lot more freedom. fi t — and, in some cases, considerable harm — of that Given the minister's responses, I'm going to take that approach. as an avenue of freedom that can be displayed within this [1630] clinic. Maybe I could ask the minister to establish com- However, having said that, the clinic that we were munication with these patient advocacy groups so that discussing, the complex chronic diseases program…. they are aware there is more freedom than they are aware Certainly, if the testing and diagnostic work and physical of right now within that clinic. exam history-taking were to lead the clinicians to con- [1635] template that, they certainly can take that type of pre- scription and apply that to an individual patient, should Hon. T. Lake: I can tell the member that I have met they deem it appropriate. with members of the patient advocacy group that she dis- cusses. As a practising veterinarian, I participated for a L. Popham: A 2012 news release from Women's number of years in collecting ticks. We submitted them Hospital, which now hosts the complex chronic diseases all to the Centre for Disease Control, looking for the par- clinic, states that Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis ticular ticks that carry the bacterium that is responsible and that test results are merely confi rmatory. Yet patient for this disease, Borrelia burgdorferi. representatives on an advisory group to the clinic are In 15 years of practice in submitting those ticks, I in being told that doctors must work within the existing my practice did not get one positive result for Borrelia. guidelines and that diagnosis requires a positive test on Having said that, we know that there are a number of the existing two-tier test. ticks in British Columbia that are capable of carrying Can the minister clarify whether the news release this organism — Ixodes pacifi cus and Ixodes angustus. claim is correct — that Lyme is a clinical diagnosis and Th ey're not present in large numbers in British Columbia 1148 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
and are constrained mostly west of the coastal mountains. ing to a family than to deal with a child that was under- I, like the member opposite, am always interested in going cancer and the treatment necessary to combat that new information and pushing the boundaries of research. disease. I, too, read the story and certainly have a lot of Th at's what this centre is all about, and certainly, I'm sup- sympathy for families and the cancer survivors as they portive of that. face those challenges as a result of their successful but nonetheless impactful treatment. M. Elmore: My question is in relation to child cancer Th ere are a number of things ongoing. Th ere's a pro- survivors. I have a constituent who I met with. His name gram that B.C. Children's Hospital supports called ON is Will Vacheresse. He has a daughter, Danielle, who is TRAC transition initiative. Th at program's goal is to fa- now 20 years old. She was diagnosed as an 18-month- cilitate transition preparation and transfer for youth with old baby. She had a brain tumour. It took one year to chronic health conditions and disabilities to adult care diagnose. and ensure that the transfer is successful, with youth en- Certainly, children with cancer, particularly brain can- gagement and continued attachment to primary care and cer…. It's a very tumultuous time for parents. specialist adult services. We're now seeing, through advances in medicine…. In recent years the B.C. Cancer Agency has also de- It's a great advance that children are able to successfully veloped the survivorship program, which is dedicated to be treated, and we're now seeing the fi rst generation of improve the well-being of those who are living with and children successfully being able to be treated, particular- beyond cancer. Th at's an important component as well. ly for brain cancer, and surviving into adulthood. Th at's We are encouraging the Pediatric Cancers Survivorship what we're seeing, and the literature and the research is Society to work closely with B.C. Children's and the B.C. also being done to catch up with that in terms of under- Cancer Agency — to work together so that we can maxi- standing this new frontier in the advance of science. mize the use of resources available and provide the neces- One of the impacts that was raised by a recent sary supports that these families need. Vancouver Sun article was the impacts of the success- Back to the member's comment about notifying the ful drug chemotherapy and radiation treatment. It oft en children who have received radiation treatment up to leaves long-term health impacts. 2000. Th ere is a pilot project underway at B.C. Children's My constituent has grouped together with 80 other Hospital. It's called Track It, and that tries to tie togeth- families who are impacted — young adults who have sur- er youth engagement with specifi c skills and knowledge vived brain cancer. Th ey've formed a group, the Pediatric that youth need in order to transition and transfer to Cancers Survivorship Society of British Columbia. adult care services. I wanted to ask, on their behalf…. Th ey see a need and We will be following this with the B.C. Cancer Agency. are advocating for a tertiary clinic to service the needs of I'm looking forward to my tour and visit with the B.C. young adults who, as children, have survived brain can- Cancer Agency, and this is a topic I will discuss with cer, just to provide the specialized care that is needed. them. Th at's the fi rst part of question — if the minister would consider supporting a tertiary clinic to service the needs J. Kwan: I have a constituent who has Crohn's disease. of young adults. He has written me a fairly lengthy letter. It's about 2½ Also, it is estimated there are about 1,500 young adults pages long. He says in the letter…. I'll take parts of it and now who are in the situation of being diagnosed with put the questions to the minister. He says that approxi- cancer and treated as children. Currently the society has mately 22,000 people in British Columbia suff er from about 80 families, and there are about 1,500 estimated in Crohn's disease. Th ere are, of course, various forms of British Columbia. treatment, which include drugs and chemotherapy, along I know there was a proposal from the Children's with surgery, as the main forms of treatment. Hospital to contact and advise these families in terms of His particular form of Crohn's disease involves the bringing them up to speed. Oft en they are isolated and formation of abscesses, which are very painful. Th e pro- unfamiliar with the outcome and the symptoms that de- cedure to deal with that, of course, requires surgery. If velop from their child being treated for cancer. surgeries, according to this particular individual, are So a two-part question. Is there consideration for ter- done strategically and at the right time, they could ac- tiary services being provided for these young adults and tually manage the illness quite well. their families, to support them? Also, are there initiatives However, his experience has been that whenever he underway to contact the estimated 1,500 children and needed surgery, it was oft en delayed. Th en, whenever he young adults who've been impacted by successful cancer needed the MRI scan to fi nd out what's going on in or- treatment as children? der to proceed with the surgery, that also is not done in [1640] a timely fashion. As such, it hinders, of course, his pro- cess and the success of the surgery. Hon. T. Lake: I can't imagine anything more devastat- He writes: Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1149
"Th ere are two main reasons for the delay in the surgery treat- care quality review board. I'm sure the member oppos- ment. Operating rooms are busy with more urgent matters — i.e., ite has constituents who she has referred to that process. car accidents, cancer surgeries, etc. — or the MRI scans are simply not available." I do know that over the last 12 years the number of As a result of that, this particular individual has had seven MRI machines that we have and the number of scans surgeries, and each surgery does not fi x the problem be- that have been done have increased dramatically. Data cause there has never been a timely way for him to get it. shows that we've nearly doubled the number of scan- Chemotherapy, then, becomes a treatment choice, which, ners, as well as the number of CT scanners, by 59 per- of course, has huge side eff ects. cent since 2003-2004. [1645] I think this is an issue that is a concern for everyone — With this particular disease, it's not like you can have timely access to care. While we have tried to catch up in the chemotherapy and then stop. You have to continu- terms of the technology, both in MRI and CT scans and ally get the therapy, which can potentially damage other even when it comes to PET scans…. Th e number of scans organs and so on. Of course, he's very concerned about we have done has gone up dramatically — a 136 percent this, and he feels that there is enormous ineffi ciency with- increase in MRIs since 2003-04. in the health care system. [1650] "In British Columbia, particularly in Vancouver, it is apparent But certainly, someone with a chronic disease such that we have a shortage of colorectal surgeons, operating rooms as Crohn's…. I certainly can understand the impact on and MRI machines." one's life of that type of disease. Timeliness of care and He then actually goes on to make some compari- having an effi cient system are critical, which is why it's sons on a per-capita basis with British Columbia versus a challenge for Health ministries around Canada to ad- Alberta, and so on. It seems to me that he makes a sound dress this. It's certainly something that we will concen- argument that we actually have a defi cient number of sur- trate on, but I'd be happy to take the constituent's letter geons in this area. and respond to each of the concerns. His questions are these: "Why do British Columbians have the worst access to colorectal J. Kwan: I thank the minister for that. I do want to care? Why are more resources not being directed to the treatment of colorectal issues? Both Crohn's and colorectal cancer are on emphasize, on behalf of this constituent, that I think the the rise. timeliness issue and also the coordination of it become "Th e government, who is the steward of our medical system, essential. If you get a surgery and you don't get the MRI, needs to be accountable for the waste of resources being spent on it makes the success of the surgery severely diminished. providing emergency care to treat problems that could be handled So that becomes central as well. through proper disease management if allocated with adequate resources — at least with the same level of resources provided to I will pass the letter on to the minister. I won't belabour the rest of the country. this point, because I know that there are many MLAs "Th e current system for dealing with colorectal issues is costing who want to ask questions. the taxpayers more money, not saving them money. By putting I have another area that I want to canvass with the more surgeons and staff directly into the colorectal surgical pro- gram, we would actually save taxpayers' money — less demands minister, which is the new B.C. Services Card. I had on ER facilities and unnecessary expenditure on multiple surgeries originally thought that this fell under the Ministry of and expensive chemotherapies." Transportation, as ICBC actually, I guess, administers He's eagerly awaiting a response on this. the card, or issues the card. It turns out it's actually in I appreciate that time is tight. Th ere are a lot of detailed the Health Ministry. He's directed me to come and ask questions here that the constituent has put forward. He's the questions here. given me consent to pass a letter on to the minister, and I have actually outlined the details of the concerns in I would be happy to do that. But I did want to put it on estimates debate with the Minister of Transportation on the public record, around this particular individual's con- July 17 at 1520, approximately, in terms of time-wise. It's cern. He's a very successful business person in Vancouver, all actually detailed in Hansard, but I'll briefl y put this and he suff ers from Crohn's disease. on the record here. Right now, as he sees it, as he's experienced it, the Basically, the B.C. Services Card has very stringent and system is not working. He's hoping that there could be sometimes inconsistent rules that make it very diffi cult some accountability and some measure to improve the for people who've lost all of their ID to access an ID. A system, not only just for himself but, ultimately, for other primary ID oft en requires either a photograph ID, in or- patients as well. der to get the B.C. Services Card, or an ID with a signa- ture. But if you're an individual who's lost all of their IDs, Hon. T. Lake: We'd be happy to receive the letter and how do you go about actually getting an ID? respond on behalf of the ministry. To complicate matters, there's a federal issue as well. Just some general comments. First of all, if any patient I'm an immigrant who's become a Canadian citizen. My is concerned about the quality of care they're receiving old citizenship card had a picture of me on it. I'm sorry or the timeliness of care, they can go through the patient to say I've since lost that card, and I only have the certifi - 1150 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
cate. Th e certifi cate, which is not accepted as a piece of ID, J. Kwan: I wonder if I could follow up with one other is sitting very safely in my bank safe. Th at's not going to question. I wonder if the minister would be willing to do me a bit of good, because if I lose all my ID, I have no have a staff person actually meet with some of the folks other ID to access it. Th e federal government no longer in the community, particularly the advocates who are issues, for example, the citizenship card with the photo- working with individuals who've lost their ID, so that graph. So that's not really going to help you. they can hear fi rsthand, directly, what those issues are So there are all of these kinds of inconsistencies. For and how best to try and address them. example, another situation is your social insurance card. I can certainly facilitate that to make that happen. It's Th ey no longer issue a card where you actually sign the quite a common problem. If the minister will let me card. Th e signature that comes with the social insurance know who that person might be who is willing to do that, card formerly could have been a primary ID, but now it I can endeavour to set it up. no longer requires a signature, so that will no longer be assessable in that way. Hon. T. Lake: Absolutely. We have been doing some I have a number of constituents who've lost their ID. of that work already, and we'd be happy to connect staff Th ey cannot access health care services. One individual, with your constituents. whose mother is very sick in England and would like to visit her before she is no longer with this world, is un- D. Eby: UBC Hospital used to provide 24-hour emer- able to get a passport because he's not able to meet these gency services to the people in Point Grey, students at kinds of requirements. UBC and people in the university neighbourhoods, the I'm urging the minister to please take a look in University Endowment Lands. Th at service was cut, and Hansard at all the issues that have been referred to. I now it's just an urgent care centre, open from 8 a.m. to also have documentation that I can pass on to the minis- 10 p.m. Th e challenge that people in my community are having ter to see if he can resolve this issue with the B.C. Services isn't just that they have to have their emergencies during Card and also work with the federal government to re- business hours but also that while people are being treat- solve some of the problems that it has caused as a result ed in the hallways in other parts of the province, there are of its changes in terms of ID. big chunks of the hospital that are sitting vacant and gath- Finally, I know that there is a system where some- ering dust. In other parts of the hospital, patient rooms times, with the B.C. Services Card, you'll do a one-off are actually being converted into offi ces for administra- sort of thing to allow for people to have a one-time ac- tors, so we're losing front-line services but building ad- cess to the card. I know that's happened. Maybe that's ministration rooms at the hospital. out of the goodness of the individuals who are trying to Out at UBC the population is expanding rapidly. Th ey help people out. But that one-off , one-time thing doesn't are implementing plans that are going to see their popu- really work. Th ere needs to be a consistent way of resolv- lation increasing from where it is now to 25,000 to 35,000 ing this for people. people year-round on campus. Students are an additional Th is problem's not going to get easier. It's just going to 7,000 people who live on campus. Th at's going to swell get more complicated, I think, over time. to 10,000-plus as UBC builds out more student housing. I wonder if I can park this with the minister. I really Th e question is quite simple. What are the ministry's need the minister to acknowledge that yes, he will look plans for serving this rapidly growing population? It into this issue and work towards resolving it. Th at will certainly seems we're going in the wrong direction with make me very, very happy. services at UBC, given the massive increase in popula- tion out there. Hon. T. Lake: Th is is a conundrum for many people. I've had constituents…. I've been in the situation myself Hon. T. Lake: Th e services provided to UBC through — coming from another country, becoming a Canadian UBC Hospital are a function of Vancouver Coastal and not having access to my birth certifi cate and going Health, which rationalizes their services to optimize ser- through a very rigorous process with the bureaucracy vices to the community. So if someone at UBC has an in the United Kingdom to obtain it. So I can certainly issue during the day, as the member suggests, there's an empathize. urgent care centre which would cover most of the needs [1655] that one might have at that time. We are working hard on these various issues that the If there is an emergency, then it is, I'm told, about member has illustrated. I will take the member's infor- 20 minutes to St. Paul's or to Vancouver General. In mation that she has read into Hansard and try to pro- Vancouver Coastal Health they meet their emergency vide responses to her. But I can say that we are working room targets of a period of time between triage and ad- diligently with our federal partners to fi nd a solution to mission to emergency on a more consistent basis than many of the situations that she has outlined. many other areas of the country. Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1151
So there are services available. Th ey may not be at asking questions about Burnaby Hospital and pointed UBC. Th ey may be a 20-minute trip to the nearest hos- out that the Liberal platform in 2013 said that Burnaby pital. I can tell the member that many constituents Hospital redevelopment is "underway or in progress," throughout British Columbia would fi nd a 20-minute which I think would make the people of Burnaby feel journey to be quite short, given the distances that many that we are going to soon have a new hospital. However, people in rural British Columbia face when dealing with there is very little in the service plan and budgets — ap- medical emergencies. parently, no line items. Th ere is a small amount that is [1700] being put into Burnaby Hospital at this point. I think it's important to have just a couple of minutes of D. Eby: Th e UBC Hospital had a long track record of background. Burnaby has been waiting for a long time for serving the people of Point Grey and UBC, saving lives. a new hospital, and it needs a new hospital or at least par- Stories are endless of the work that the staff and doctors tial redevelopment in a signifi cant way. We already had a there did in the emergency room. Th ere is no question high-level master plan. Th ere's a high-level master plan that it was a needed service and a valuable service, and now. A process has been gone through. Th ere was a high- given the increase in population at UBC, it's an essential level master plan in the year 2001. It sat for 12 years, and service. I don't think it's fair for the minister to set off virtually nothing was done in order to improve Burnaby diff erent parts of the province against each other when Hospital. And the recommendations about the rebuilding there is unquestionably a need here at the hospital that as well as the defi ciencies about Burnaby Hospital were the hospital used to fi ll and now has had reduced services pretty well the same back in 2001. despite increasing population. I can quote just one very small quote. It's a very long Again, to the minister: are there any plans at all to re- document, several hundred pages. Th is is the 2001 docu- visit that decision, or will the minister simply abdicate ment. It recommended "replacing the ineffi cient and his role here to Vancouver Coastal Health? unsafe 1952 and 1958 buildings." Th e report goes on to say that those buildings are seismically unsafe. In fact, Hon. T. Lake: Well, I do fi nd it quite disrespectful to one building had virtually zero seismic capability, de- say that I'm abdicating my role. Th e fact is that it is a chal- pending on which way an earthquake went through the lenge. Providing health care services throughout a prov- building. Th at plan was never acted on except in minor ince like British Columbia is a challenge, and to provide ways, and there certainly have been no new buildings, a sustainable health care service that does not ruin the despite the strong recommendation that at least one and fi scal credibility of this province is a challenge. We are possibly two of those buildings be torn down because committed to providing the very best health care, and they're unsafe. I've spoken in this House about the positive outcomes, [1705] the very enviable health outcomes, that we have in this We also know that they are not only unsafe as build- province, yet we're making great strides in making our ings; they are medically unsafe. We became painfully system sustainable. aware of that in Burnaby when a leaked document signed When health care costs outpace economic growth, by virtually every medical department head in Burnaby, there are only two remedies. One is to increase taxes and January 9, 2011…. It was a letter signed by every medical fees. Th e other is to take from other programs like en- department head in Burnaby and sent to the CEO of the vironmental protection, like forestry, like social develop- Fraser Health Authority. ment. I hope the member opposite can agree that this is a It said that there was a very high level of C. diffi cile and challenge faced by governments around the world. that there were 84 deaths associated with C. diffi cile in We work very closely with our health care author- the previous months. It says that one of the major reasons ities to make sure that they are providing effi cacious was the aged hospital infrastructure, with insuffi cient and cost-eff ective treatments for the citizens of British numbers and inadequate localization of sinks. Columbia. It is true that you could have a full-service, I know that there is some eff ort in order to address 24-hour hospital within fi ve minutes of every resident, the issue with sinks. Th at's part of the small amount of but it simply would not be sustainable. We have to look money, I understand, in the hospital. But the reality is to provide the very best outcomes and also the very best that Burnaby has a hospital that has served our com- cost-eff ectiveness for the citizens of British Columbia be- munity well for decades and decades, but it needs to be cause we have a fi scal responsibility as well as a medical replaced. responsibility to the people of B.C. Now my understanding is that we're on the list. We're looking at ten years, and we have some real concerns. Our K. Corrigan: I wanted to ask some questions about concerns are also in the nature that the only real time that Burnaby Hospital in my community. On Tuesday and, there was interest in this hospital seemed to be when it I believe, yesterday, as well, my colleague from New turned into a political football. Westminster, the offi cial opposition critic for Health, was I would like to read into the record a couple of para- 1152 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
graphs from a three-page document from December of There is a phone upgrade, $320,000 — complete. 2011 that was signed by Pamela Gardner, Brian Bonney Clinical archives storage, $250,000 — complete. And of the quick-win scandal fame and Mark Robertson $200,000 worth of work to the building envelope — which says: complete. Chiller replacement for $580,000 — complete. "A new Burnaby hospital. Th e issue we can win Burnaby–Deer Parkade, $250,000 — complete. Arthroplasty initiative, Lake on and rewin Burnaby North and Lougheed will also help in $1.96 million — complete. Energy upgrade, $240,000 Fairview and Fraserview." — complete. Sterile processing department renovation, Th is is one small part. $510,000 — complete. Another sterile processing depart- "Only Burnaby Hospital can deliver a new seat, Burnaby–Deer Lake, taking out" — it mentions my name, which I'm not allowed ment, vertical transport system, $1.17 million — com- to do in this House — "and helping us keep two tight swings, plete. Burnaby Hospital MRI renovation, $4.21 million Burnaby North and Burnaby-Lougheed. It will also help us in the — complete. serving area with Fraserview and Fairview." Th e list is extensive. It adds up to $32 million. It goes on to say: We are committed, and there is a notional $525 mil- "It will dramatically help the chances once more if we can intro- duce a second-generation Chinese doctor candidate for Burnaby– lion for the redevelopment of Burnaby Hospital. Th is Deer Lake to champion the issue. It would help seal the deal." will take some time. As mentioned previously, whenever Later: you are doing a redevelopment of an existing facility, you "We must act fi rst. PCC" — referring to the Premier — "MMD" don't tear it down and leave the community without a — referring to then Minister of Health — "Richard Lee and Harry facility. You do it in stages. Each stage will have a busi- Bloy to tour Burnaby Hospital, do a press conference and, aft er, ness plan with tighter cost estimates. As I said, notion- to announce that PCC will rebuild the Burnaby Hospital or look into what the community wants. Th is would keep the issues ours ally, $525 million. without committing dollars and buy us time to do some polling We are looking forward and are committed to the re- and confi rm this is a winning issue." development of Burnaby Hospital, but aft er combing the There was a report that was done later by a bogus health care platform of the NDP, I did not see a commit- committee in the community as well, peopled by Liberal ment to the Burnaby Hospital redevelopment. friends as well. Th at happened later. E-mails leaked from them indicated that from the ministers themselves down K. Corrigan: A large portion of the money that has through Brian Bonney and the local operatives, it con- gone into Burnaby Hospital is money that has to go in be- tinued to be used as a political football. cause it is falling down and it is being patched up. Some You can understand why the people in my community of them are improvements. I recognize that. have a lot of cynicism about the nature of how projects Th e thing that I asked of the minister…. Th ere was go through, have cynicism about the treatment of health documentation going back 12 years saying this building care and only want the right thing to be done for Burnaby. is badly in need of being replaced. What I am asking the But once again we see, now that the political usefulness minister is that the minister will work with the commun- is no longer there, that there is no real money going into ity of Burnaby. I think there are some creative things that Burnaby Hospital. can be done in Burnaby with that property. I think that I wanted to get that on the record. I also wanted to there should be an openness with Burnaby, the city of ask the minister: considering the danger of the hospital, Burnaby. And certainly, I would be very happy to work the high level of C. diffi cile, the fact that it is seismically with the ministry. fragile and the fact that this hospital is needed for our But it is simply not acceptable to have what has hap- community, could the minister please assure the people pened over the last 12 years. We have a building that is of Burnaby that this hospital is fi nally, aft er many, many dangerous. We have a building that is dangerous medical- years of being ignored, going to be rebuilt? ly and is physically dangerous. It has been ignored by this government for 12 years, and it is not right that we would Hon. T. Lake: I'm happy to talk about Burnaby go another several years with notional funding. What we Hospital. Th e hospital obviously is very valuable to the want is real funding, and we want that hospital addressed. community. Let me remind the member of some of the ongoing investments in Burnaby Hospital. D. Routley: I'd like to ask the minister a question Th e emergency department renovation is in progress. about a very unfortunate and sombre occurrence in Th at's almost $2 million. Th e ambulatory GI unit reno- Nanaimo. It's not directly about this tragedy — a new- vation is in progress. Th at's $2.1 million. Th ere's a pip- born baby died recently in Nanaimo — but about the ef- ing upgrade that's going on, in progress, for $300,000. forts of the parents to cope with that tragedy. Isolation room renovation in progress for $250,000. On May 31 little Jesse Shanahan, at only six weeks Ventilation and air-handling upgrade for $220,000. old, having been born prematurely at a birth weight of Quality performance management system, which is an two pounds, 12 ounces, lost her struggle for her life. Her IM/IT system, $2 million. Th at's complete. parents, Sheri and Mike Shanahan, are coping with the [1710] loss of their daughter by appealing to the community to Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1153
make donations in Jesse's name as her legacy to the new- Hon. T. Lake: I want to say to the member opposite, born intensive care unit of Nanaimo Regional Hospital. the critic for health care, my thanks for the cooperative What they are hoping to do is raise enough money to and collegial approach that she has taken to the estimates fund a central cardiac monitor in the NICU. Unfortunately, process, and to her colleagues that have, at various parts the NICU at this point doesn't have a central cardiac of the last 15 hours and 17 minutes, posed their questions. monitor. Jesse's mom, Sheri, is a nurse, and several nurses It's a great opportunity for all of us, I think, to under- have come forward with her to say that this would be a stand the myriad issues entailed in the health care min- fi tting memory for Jesse and something that would help istry and the challenges that we as British Columbians nurses monitor infants from outside the rooms and allow and, in fact, as Canadians face in developing and main- them to perform their tasks more effi ciently. taining a sustainable health care system. Quite an extraordinary response from the commun- I want to particularly say thank you to my staff , my ity. Th e Nanaimo Hospital Foundation has committed deputy, my assistant deputy ministers and the many, $30,000 of the $60,000 required. Th e family have fund- many people behind the scenes that are in a room op- raised about $15,000. So they're currently $15,000 short posite and in other rooms throughout this building and of the $60,000 goal to fund the central cardiac monitor through the building on Blanshard, as they watched the in the newborn infant intensive care unit. proceedings and tried to come up with the appropriate [1715] information to satisfy the questions asked by the mem- I'm hoping that the minister could agree with me bers opposite. that one of the most extraordinary things we experi- Having said that, hon. Chair, shall the vote that I put ence as MLAs is the capacity of people to deal with their before the House pass? loss and how so oft en their loss is translated into an ef- fort to benefi t other people. So many times we are con- Th e Chair: Seeing no further questions, I'll now put fronted with people who can't do anything to remedy Vote 28. their own circumstances but turn their energies to the [1720] benefi t of others, and this is a really great example of that in Nanaimo. Vote 28: ministry operations, $16,403,475,000 — ap- I wonder if the minister can see opportunity in the proved. current budget to support the remaining funds necessary for the central cardiac monitor at the Nanaimo newborn ESTIMATES: intensive care unit. LEGISLATION
Hon. T. Lake: I can only imagine the pain that a family Vote 1: legislation, $75,496,000 — approved. must go through to lose a newborn and certainly under- stand how losing a child can spur parents to advocate and ESTIMATES: try to help others, particularly if it can prevent something OFFICERS OF THE LEGISLATURE tragic from happening to other people. Having said that, I don't think it is fair, honestly, to put Vote 2: Auditor General, $16,070,000 — approved. a minister on the spot in a public forum like this to com- mit public funds. Th ere are needs around the province. Vote 3: Confl ict of Interest Commissioner, $510,000 We certainly support the foundation and the fundraising — approved. eff orts. But I don't think it is appropriate for a minister of the Crown to dedicate taxpayers' money to one project Vote 4: Elections B.C., $8,210,000 — approved. on the spot in a forum such as this. Vote 5: Information and Privacy Commissioner, J. Darcy: Let me thank the minister again and his staff , $5,526,000 — approved. who have worked diligently over the last few days, carry- ing their binders in and out and supplying answers for Vote 6: Merit Commissioner, $1,039,000 — approved. many if not all of the questions. I think it's probably appropriate that we started with Vote 7: Ombudsperson, $5,615,000 — approved. very big-picture fi nancing from the Ministry of Health and we fi nish with some of the real-life impacts on people Vote 8: Police Complaint Commissioner, $3,024,000 in our community. We've left a number of requests with — approved. the minister for answers. We'll certainly be following up on those and look forward to exploring these issues Vote 9: Representative for Children and Youth, further. $7,317,000 — approved. 1154 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
Hon. M. de Jong: I move the committee rise and re- ments for capital loans, investments and other fi nancing port completion. requirements of the province for the fi scal year ending March 31, 2014. Th is sum includes that authorized to be Motion approved. paid under section 2 of the Supply Act (No. 1), 2013.
Th e committee rose at 5:22 p.m. Motion approved.
Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. Hon. M. de Jong: I move there be granted to Her Majesty from and out of the consolidated revenue fund Committee of Supply (Section B) reported resolutions. the sum of $1,220,746,000 towards defraying the dis- bursements for revenue collected for and transferred to Madame Speaker: When shall the report be con- other entities for the fi scal year ending March 31, 2014. sidered? Th is sum includes that paid under section 3 of the Supply Act (No. 1), 2013, which section ceases to provide au- Hon. M. de Jong: Presently, Madame Speaker. thority.
Madame Speaker: So ordered. Motion approved.
Committee of Supply (Section A), reported resolutions. Introduction and First Reading of Bills Madame Speaker: When shall the report be con- sidered? BILL 3 — SUPPLY ACT, 2013-2014
Hon. M. de Jong: Forthwith. Hon. M. de Jong presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Supply Madame Speaker: Th ank you. Act, 2013-2014.
Committee of Supply (Section C), reported resolutions. Hon. M. de Jong: I move that Bill 3 be introduced and read a fi rst time now. Madame Speaker: Government House Leader, when shall the report be considered? Motion approved.
Hon. M. de Jong: Forthwith. Hon. M. de Jong: Madame Speaker, this supply bill is introduced to specifi cally authorize funding for the oper- Madame Speaker: So ordered. ation of government programs for the 2013-2014 fi scal year. Th e House has already received, taken as read and Hon. M. de Jong: I move that the reports of resolutions agreed to the reports of resolutions from the Committees from the Committees of Supply on July 9, 11, 16, 17, 18, of Supply aft er consideration of the main estimates. In 22, 23, 24 and 25 be received, taken as read and agreed to. addition, the House has resolved that there be granted from and out of the consolidated revenue fund the ne- Motion approved. cessary funds towards defraying the charges, expenses [1725] and disbursements of the public service of the province for the fi scal year ending March 31, 2014. Hon. M. de Jong: I move that there be granted to Her It is the intention of the government, Madame Speaker, Majesty from and out of the consolidated revenue fund to proceed with all stages of the supply bill this day. the sum of $35,067,404,000 towards defraying the char- ges and expenses of the public service of the province for Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, I would ask you to the fi scal year ending March 31, 2014. Th is sum includes remain in your seats for a few minutes while the bill is that authorized to be paid under section 1 of the Supply being distributed. Act (No. 1), 2013. [1730] In keeping with the practice of this House, the fi nal Motion approved. supply bill will be permitted to advance through all stages in one sitting. Hon. M. de Jong: I move that there be granted to Her Majesty from and out of the consolidated revenue fund Bill 3, Supply Act, 2013-2014, introduced, read a fi rst time the sum of $735,759,000 towards defraying the disburse- and ordered to proceed to second reading forthwith. Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1155
Second Reading of Bills His Honour the Administrator requested to attend the House, was admitted to the chamber and took his place BILL 3 — SUPPLY ACT, 2013-2014 in the chair.
Hon. M. de Jong: I move that Bill 3 be read a second Royal Assent to Bills time now. Deputy Clerk: Motion approved. Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2013 In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Administrator Hon. M. de Jong: I move that Bill 3 be referred to a doth assent to this act. Committee of the Whole House for consideration forth- Supply Act, 2013-2014 with. In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Administrator doth thank Her Majesty's loyal subjects, accepts their be- Bill 3, Supply Act, 2013-2014, read a second time and nevolence and assents to this act. ordered to proceed to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration forthwith. His Honour the Administrator retired from the cham- ber. Committee of the Whole House [Madame Speaker in the chair.] BILL 3 — SUPPLY ACT, 2013-2014 Hon. M. de Jong: I move that the House at its rising Th e House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on do stand adjourned until it appears to the satisfaction of the Speaker, aft er consultation with the government, that Bill 3; D. Horne in the chair. the public interest requires that the House shall meet or until the Speaker may be advised by the government that Th e committee met at 5:33 p.m. it is desired to prorogue the fi rst session of the 40th par- liament of the province of British Columbia. Sections 1 to 4 inclusive approved. [1745] Th e Speaker may give notice that she is so satisfi ed or Schedules 1 to 3 inclusive approved. has been so advised, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such notice and, as the case may be, Preamble approved. may transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to that time and date. In the event of the Speaker being Title approved. unable to act owing to illness or other cause, the Deputy Speaker shall act in her stead for the purpose of this order. Hon. M. de Jong: I move the committee rise, report the bill complete without amendment. Motion approved.
Motion approved. Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, before we adjourn, on behalf of all of us, I would take this opportunity to Th e committee rose at 5:34 p.m. acknowledge the fi ne staff of the Legislative Assembly who support us during this legislative session. Th e very Th e House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair. capable individuals in all the departments — Hansard; the parliamentary education offi ce; the Legislative Li- Report and brary; the Sergeant-at-Arms staff; financial services; Th ird Reading of Bills human resources; information technology; the staff in the Speaker's offi ce, Clerk's offi ce and the parliament- BILL 3 — SUPPLY ACT, 2013-2014 ary committees offi ce; and, of course, the dining room — provide us all with invaluable service and dedication. Bill 3, Supply Act, 2013-2014, reported complete with- Would you please join with me in extending our grati- out amendment, read a third time and passed. tude for their hard work. [Applause.] Hon. Members, it has been my privilege to serve you Madame Speaker: Hon. Members, His Honour the as Speaker. Administrator is in the precinct. Please remain seated while we await his arrival. Hon. M. de Jong: Madame Speaker, with congratula- [1735-1740] tions to all members, particularly those who have arrived 1156 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
here for the fi rst time, best wishes for a happy summer. Th e Chair: Minister. Until we meet again, à la prochaine fois, I move the House do now adjourn. Hon. J. Rustad: Th ank you, Madam Chair, and I didn't mention earlier: welcome to the estimates this aft ernoon. Hon. M. de Jong moved adjournment of the House. [1445] To the member opposite, the budget that we have in Motion approved. there…. Of course, we've had a tremendous amount of success in reaching a number of agreements. Within that Madame Speaker: Th is House stands adjourned until budget, the amount that we have utilized for implemen- further notice. tation has actually been increased. Like I say, that's a re- fl ection of the success we've been having and how we've Th e House adjourned at 5:46 p.m. had to manage our budgets to be able to do those imple- mentations.
PROCEEDINGS IN THE D. Donaldson: Are you saying that, in the allocation of DOUGLAS FIR ROOM $13.537 million for negotiation and implementation, the way that it's allocated within that negotiation and imple- Committee of Supply mentation means that additional resources are being al- located for implementation, compared to previous years? ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ABORIGINAL RELATIONS Hon. J. Rustad: Within that budget, it's probably im- AND RECONCILIATION portant to note, as you reach agreements — whether it (continued) be a treaty or whether it be small agreements, non-treaty agreements — we have a group of very qualifi ed, very The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); J. capable individuals that may be part of the negotiations, Th ornthwaite in the chair. part of the process through there. As we go through to implementation of them, those people might move over Th e committee met at 2:41 p.m. and work on implementing. So there's an ebb and fl ow that goes back and forth between the various compon- On Vote 11: ministry operations, $34,552,000 (con- ents within the ministry. tinued). D. Donaldson: Yes. And the service plan indicated Hon. J. Rustad: Before we start, to the member's ques- there was an increase in allocation "increasing resources tion from earlier. You were wondering about the chief for agreement implementation." Th at's why I specifi cally of staff and the range for chief of staff . Both the chief of asked the minister about that, to see how that was re- staff and the ministerial assistants are in the same band fl ected in the budget. of classifi cation salary range, which is $66,150 to $94,500. Moving on to a number of these types of non-treaty Th e other question that I mentioned we'd be able to agreements that the government is advancing, we know get to — we'll have to get that to you in writing aft er the that some of them are strategic engagement agreements, session here today. some of them are reconciliation agreements, some of them are economic and community development agree- Th e Chair: I recognize the member for Stikine. ments. In fact, the latter category is the majority of the agreements that have been signed in the last year and a D. Donaldson: Th ank you, hon. Chair, and thanks for half. sitting in and being the Chair this aft ernoon. Most of those economic and community development Th e topic I alluded to a bit this morning and that I'd agreements refer to sharing direct mineral tax revenue on like to move on to now is non-treaty agreements, which new mines and major mine expansion. Could the minis- this government has put a lot of emphasis on in the last ter advise or give an idea, for the public, what the formula couple of years. is? What is an example of the percentage of direct mineral In the service plan on page 9 it talks about increasing tax revenue that is shared in these kinds of agreements? resources for agreement implementation. I don't see any [1450] increase in the negotiations and implementation line item in this estimates as compared to last year's budget. Hon. J. Rustad: I want to take a moment and talk a In fact, there's a decrease of $200,000. little bit about this, because the agreements that we've Could the minister advise on where the increase is reached with many First Nations on mining activities are that's written about in the service plan? very signifi cant. Particularly, there are some in my riding, Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1157
and there are a number across the province. Th e ten that Hon. J. Rustad: One of the things that's probably have been reached encompass a number of First Nations worth noting is that our original target within the min- and encompass a number of projects. We believe those istry under the jobs plan was to have ten new agreements projects are very important. by 2013, I believe. Th at was the original target, and of To the particular question that was asked around this, course, we've achieved 18 as part of that. So going for- First Nations can receive up to 37½ percent of incremen- ward, our target is ten, to be completed by 2015. tal tax revenue for mine developments. In our service plan, of course, we hope to be able to actually achieve that as quickly as possible. We're hoping D. Donaldson: Up to 37½ percent. Did the minister to actually do many more than ten over that period, so say "incremental," and could he elaborate on that a little we've set a target of trying to do seven per year over that further? period of time. I think we're well underway on our fi rst number of agreements coming forward. Hon. J. Rustad: To the question around the incremen- tal revenue that comes in around this, I'll give a couple D. Donaldson: To fi nally put a point on this one, that of examples. Hopefully, they'll be able to explain it. Th e would be ten by December 31, 2015? Highland Valley project was an expansion, so the incre- mental revenue that would come in to government is Hon. J. Rustad: Yes. shared in terms of the expansion component, whereas, say, with a project like Mount Milligan, which will be D. Donaldson: I have a question. I'm going to put a coming into operation this fall, I believe, the revenue that couple of specifi c examples out to the minister. He prob- comes in is new revenue associated with the new mine. ably knows about these. If he does, it would be good to get him on the record during estimates, and if he doesn't, D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer. Th e perform- then I think we need to raise some red fl ags about it. Th e fi rst is about a reconciliation agreement. In the ance target for the minister in this category of non-treaty ministry's fact sheet it says reconciliation agreements agreements, I believe — perhaps he can confi rm — is ten "create the opportunity for comprehensive and lasting new agreements. I'm not sure if that's over the three years reconciliation." So this is a non-treaty agreement, and of the plan. And just to let him know, I'll be asking for, in that's what we're talking about in this part of the budget writing, which types of agreements he's anticipating in estimates right now. those ten and with which First Nations. I want to point out a situation that I would like to hear from the minister about. Th at's in relation to Gitanyow Hon. J. Rustad: I want to confi rm — the member had Hereditary Chiefs. Th ey sent a letter. Th e latest letter was asked about the mandate letter — that that's ten new July 15, 2013. Th ey sent it to the Minister of Environment, non-treaty agreements to be completed by 2015, as part but it was also cc'd to the senior negotiator with the min- of our overall jobs plan. And those ten new non-treaty ister's ministry. agreements are the range of agreements. Th ey're not just It relates to this issue. In 2012 in the fall the Gitanyow on the mining side. For example, where there might be signed a reconciliation agreement with the province. It a project, whether it be clean energy or other types of was here, and it was well celebrated. Part of that recon- agreements that could be reached, that would be part of ciliation agreement was a land use plan. Th e land use plan that target of ten. had been worked on for a number of years. I congratu- late the staff that worked with the Gitanyow, because it D. Donaldson: To get a bit more clarifi cation from was rolled into the reconciliation agreement, which also the minister on this, that would be ten new by 2014-15, had taken a number of years to get to resolution. So that on top of the 18 that had been signed? Secondly, I don't was done, and the land use plan was recognized as part understand how this jibes with the performance meas- of the reconciliation agreement. ure 4 on page 15 of the service plan, where it shows sev- Th e Gitanyow subsequently this spring were asked to en strategic engagements for '13-14, seven for '14-15 and comment by the environmental assessment offi ce on a seven for '15-16, which adds up to 21. proposed transmission corridor for natural gas pipe- [1455] lines between the northeast and Prince Rupert, two of Th e performance measure is: "Number of completed which are proposed to cross their traditional territories agreements that support strategic engagement with First and land that was under consideration in the land use Nations, including reconciliation agreements and stra- plan. Th e land use plan had actually dovetailed with a tegic engagement agreements." Th e seven, seven and sev- number of government land use plans that were already en add up to 21, and the minister is talking about ten. So in existence. could he put on the record exactly what numbers we're [1500] talking about here? Th ey were told by the environmental assessment of- 1158 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
fi ce that it was of the view that the land use plan — and that it can operate as though there is no R-and-R agreement, is, in I would say, therefore, the reconciliation agreement — fact, undermining the constructive development of reconciliation between the Crown and the Gitanyow." had no bearing on the environmental assessment offi ce's Th ey recognize that there was constructive work done consideration of these pipeline routes in the EA process. together between MARR and the Gitanyow, with MARR I'll quote a little bit from this letter that the Gitanyow representing the Crown, in arriving at this agreement have sent. I mean, obviously, it's of grave concern to them less than a year ago. Now they're surprised that another and I think of grave concern to the province. It should be, branch of government, the environmental assessment when a reconciliation agreement is signed and then these kinds of surprises happen. What they say is: offi ce, is not even recognizing the land use plan that was "One of the main purposes of the Gitanyow reconciliation agree- part of that agreement. ment is to create increased certainty to land and resource manage- I'll pose it to the minister one more time. I think he ment and decisions. Forcing Gitanyow to go to court in order to would understand, especially in light of the emphasis on obtain a serious consideration of Gitanyow aboriginal rights and LNG and those two northern routes that are proposed title with respect to the environmental assessment decisions will not provide that certainty and will increase the possibility of non- across the Gitanyow territories, that this is something reconciliation and disputes. that, I think, is a red fl ag. "It appears to us that the environmental assessment offi ce is Is his ministry involved in this diff erence of opinion operating under directions to green-light all projects proposed for over what the reconciliation agreement states? this region, and in doing so, they are showing complete disregard for our rights." Th ey go on to say that they negotiated in good faith on Hon. J. Rustad: As the member has said and as I've the reconciliation agreement and the land use plan and talked about earlier, of course, LNG is a tremendous op- would like to get some clarifi cation about why this agree- portunity for all people in the province, aboriginal and ment is not being considered in regards to this very sub- non-aboriginal alike. With regards to the transmission stantial initiative around natural gas pipelines. pipelines, we have been engaged with First Nations along Part of the purpose of the ministry, under strategic in- the corridor, including the Gitanyow, to make sure that itiatives, is to support and enhance non-treaty negotia- there are benefi ts from these operations and from these tions considered strategically important to furthering the potential projects that will fl ow to the First Nations. new relationship. LNG is obviously a top priority for this Specifi cally, with regards to the question around the government and in the mandate letter. What is his view reconciliation and the diff erence of opinion, we are ac- of this interaction between the Gitanyow, the environ- tually engaged with the Gitanyow and the environmental mental assessment offi ce — the reconciliation agreement assessment offi ce to try to work with and try to bring the that his ministry signed with the Gitanyow — and what's diff erences to a resolution. Th at's part of the job of MARR being done to address this situation? and what we try to do within our ministry. But for specifi cs with regards to land use and the pro- Hon. J. Rustad: Like I said earlier, we try to build these jects that are being proposed in the EA offi ce, a process relationships, we try to build these opportunities in the going through there, unfortunately, those are details that non-treaty agreements to help further relations, to help I wouldn't be able to go into. You'd have to take that to further certainty and opportunities on the land base as the Minister of Environment, on the environmental as- well as opportunities, of course, for First Nations to be sessment process. able to participate. With regard to the Gitanyow and specifi cally to the D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that answer, Minister. reconciliation agreement, one of the things that actually Well, it's good to hear that the ministry is engaged, be- was excluded from that agreement was that the engage- cause I think that it has the potential to be a very serious ment framework does not apply to decisions under the disagreement, as outlined in the July 15 letter that I was B.C. Environmental Assessment Act. quoting from. I supplied that letter to the Minister of Natural Gas Development during and aft er his estimates D. Donaldson: I understand that's the answer that and brought the issue up there as well. the Gitanyow are getting to their references, and they As I said, it's a coordinating role, a coordinating func- don't agree. Th ey believe that the reconciliation contains tion, of this minister's ministry around these non-treaty two references to the B.C. Environmental Assessment agreements, so I would look forward to hearing from Act, and they point it out in this letter to the Minister of the Gitanyow around the engagement that the ministry Environment and cc'd to one of the senior representatives is having. Obviously, they've got some very serious con- of MARR. Th ey say: cerns. [1505] [1510] "While it is true that EA decisions are not included in the shared It also raises the issue of these non-treaty agreements. decision-making framework, this does not mean that the EAO is excluded from the recognition provided under the agreement. When the ministry is advocating and this government is Th is is a signifi cant distinction in that the EAO, if it is of the view advocating to sign off more of them, what are they ac- Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1159
tually meaning to First Nations? sions are being made just months down the road? I'll bring up another specifi c example. Th is one is an- other type of non-treaty agreement. It is a strategic en- Hon. J. Rustad: Th ere's an enormous potential for gagement agreement, and in this sense, it was a shared many opportunities up in the northwest of the province, decision-making agreement. Th at was signed with the and of course, the Tahltan have a very large area within Tahltan in the last sitting of this Legislature, which was at that which encompasses quite a wide range of those op- the end of March, 2013, I believe. Th ere was a ceremony portunities. here to celebrate that at the Legislature. [1515] These shared decision-making agreements, again, Th e strategic engagement agreement is something that are process-oriented. Under a strategic engagement we set up, negotiated and worked government to govern- agreement, there are ways, as I quote from the min- ment with the Tahltan on, to try to work on how the pro- istry fact sheet, to "encourage a positive and respect- jects and what have you go forward. ful government-to-government relationship with First It's similar, though, to the previous agreement. Th e Nations." I think that's going to be key moving forward, actual work of the environmental assessment offi ce was the government-to-government aspect. not included as part of that agreement. I'll leave it at that. So signed in March with the Tahltan — this was a shared decision-making agreement. Subsequent to that, D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. Considering that the Tahltan discovered that…. Th e environmental as- the environmental assessment offi ce is integral to deci- sessment offi ce, around the end of May, informed them sions about whether development will proceed — de- that they had applied for substitution to the federal en- velopment that this government, and the province vironmental assessment office regarding the environ- generally, is counting on for new revenue generation, mental assessment of a proposed open-pit coal mine in whether it's in mining or LNG or other activities — can the Sacred Headwaters region of Tahltan territory — in the minister explain why reconciliation agreements, stra- fact, an area that the government and the Tahltan and in- tegic engagement agreements don't include language or dustry had worked on potential coal bed methane extrac- clauses that refer to the environmental assessment? tion and eliminated that activity out of that area, which was a good move. Hon. J. Rustad: As I was mentioning before, with the Th is proposed open-pit coal mine is in the same area opportunities that we see in the northwest, and particu- — the birthplace of the Stikine and Skeena and Nass riv- larly with the Tahltan…. I wanted to touch on a couple ers. It's an amazing part of the country and very import- of the agreements, a couple of things that are covered in ant to the downstream resources, including wild salmon. the agreements and those opportunities and benefi ts that Th e B.C. environmental assessment offi ce had applied are fl owing to the Tahltan. to the federal environmental assessment offi ce for sub- Of course, the northwest transmission line, with the stitution. In other words, they were granted substitution. agreement in there. Th e Forrest Kerr project. And we Th e B.C. environmental assessment of the project would are in advanced negotiations with the Tahltan on the be considered by the federal assessment offi ce as a sub- Red Chris project. stitute for theirs — so one process on that. Specifi cally, though, with regard to the environmental Th e president of the Tahltan Central Council charac- assessment offi ce and why that is excluded. Th e environ- terized this as fast-tracking and also characterized it as mental assessment offi ce is covered under very extensive a breaking of an election promise, because in the throne legislation which requires signifi cant consultation and a speech — I believe, the February throne speech — there separate process, which is why it is not being included as were remarks that the provincial government would work part of the agreement that we are discussing. with the Tahltan towards a protected area resolution for the Sacred Headwaters. D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer. Th at may be, Again, in this situation — a shared decision-making but considering the two examples I just gave, it would be agreement in March; in May a decision made by the en- important for the ministry to start making the linkages vironmental assessment offi ce without consulting around there. I think the two examples I gave are pretty import- the decision to apply for substitution for an environment- ant examples of how the non-treaty agreements aren't al assessment process, which the Tahltan characterize as playing out the way those two First Nations in those par- fast-tracking. ticular circumstances thought it would. Is the Ministry of Aboriginal Relations and The minister brings up some interesting points, Reconciliation involved in the resolution of this dispute? though. Th is is something I've been trying to determine Can the minister see how, once again, this would be seen and wrestle with a bit myself while I have been reading by other First Nations as contradictory and not helpful through the material on the ministry. Th e Environmental when you're trying to encourage the signing of a shared Assessment Act includes language around impact-and- decision-making agreement and then unilateral deci- benefi ts agreements with First Nations. In fact, in the 1160 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
Environmental Assessment Act, one of the — I wouldn't engaged with First Nations. We're trying to fi nd ways to want to say tick boxes, but — criteria that a proponent of be able to share in the prosperity and the opportunities a project has to show is that they commit to an impact- that come forward. and-benefi ts agreement for impacted local First Nations. We fi nd those types of benefi ts that can fl ow to First Th ey don't have to actually say what the details of the Nations through revenue-sharing or other types of agree- agreement are in order to get the environmental assess- ments that we've reached can create tremendous oppor- ment certifi cate, but they have to say that they will nego- tunities in terms of employment, training and other types tiate an IBA, impact-and-benefi ts agreement, with local of things that can really change lives within First Nations. First Nations concerned. So we are actively pursuing these. We think these are [1520] great opportunities to help build capacity, to help build I know I'm pointing to a diff erent ministry, but what the ability of First Nations to be able to participate fully is the link between economic and community develop- within the economy within their area. We think that ment agreements that this minister uses as a non-treaty- particularly mines, LNG and other types of resource op- agreement tool and an IBA? Wouldn't that be a natural portunities do present fabulous opportunities for First link between these kinds of non-treaty agreements and Nations to be able to help build their economic base. the environmental assessment process? D. Donaldson: I'll have to think about what the min- Hon. J. Rustad: Of course, you're right when you ister just told me. To me, there's a bit of a niggling issue raise…. Th is particular question is more directed to an- there. We know that under the environmental assessment other ministry in terms of the environmental assessment. process, proponents are having to commit to negotiate an I will say that impact-and-benefi t agreements are some- IBA with a local First Nation if they're successful in ac- thing that we try to encourage. It's a great way for com- quiring their environmental assessment certifi cate. Th en panies to be able to help build those relationships with the minister says that might not always be the case. Th en First Nations, as they're going forward. we have the provincial government advancing economic As I mentioned, it is something that's a private sector and community development agreements that seem to be company or a proponent with the First Nation. And the a focus of attention. details of the impact-and-benefi t agreement and the pro- It raises concerns for me that perhaps a First Nation cess and all of that sort of thing falls within the act that is would be more inclined to go with an economic and governed, I think, by the Ministry of Environment. community development agreement and whether that has the full spectrum of what an impact-benefi t agree- D. Donaldson: To the minister, I'm trying to get a han- ment could provide. It might not be the case. But there's dle on this, and maybe he is too. I don't know. more certainty, perhaps, for them to try to get an ECDA You've got these economic and cumulative develop- in the short-term — economic and community develop- ment agreements where up to 37½ percent of incre- ment agreement. So I'll leave that percolating out there mental direct mineral tax revenue is negotiated in an as something to think about. agreement with a First Nation. Th en you've got the en- What I would like to move on to in this section, vironmental assessment that, if a certifi cate is approved, though…. Under non-treaty agreements with First includes an impact-and-benefi t agreement where certain Nations, I'm going to talk about a specifi c example. I fi nancial benefi ts would fl ow to a First Nation on the think it's the only example, actually, under First Nations same particular project, perhaps. clean energy business fund. I know that that's not part So what is the role of the Ministry of Aboriginal of the vote, but it is listed as one of the non-treaty agree- Relations and Reconciliation in coordinating between ment tools under the ministry fact sheet. economic and community development agreements and I understand that the First Nations clean energy busi- impact-and-benefi t agreements? ness fund…. One of the parts of the fund is to share [1525] revenues from clean energy projects based on new net incremental revenues to government derived from, for Hon. J. Rustad: As I mentioned before, of course, the instance, water rentals. impact-benefi t agreements are part of another ministry. If I'm not wrong, the one example of this that's been But from my understanding of that piece of the legisla- signed so far is, again, with the Tahltan over AltaGas's tion, that is part of the discussions that go on between Forrest Kerr project. Actually, I visited that project. the proponent and the First Nations. It doesn't necessar- It's quite an impressive project. I went underground ily mean in all cases that an impact-benefi t agreement is there before they completed everything. I know that actually reached. McLymont Creek and Volcano Creek are other elements What we try to do is try to facilitate discussions and to that independent power project. try to encourage those discussions that go on between But from what I understand, the Tahltan agreement companies. And then from our side, of course, we are was signed, again, at the end of March, at the same time Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1161
as the strategic engagement agreement. A First Nations rental, not just on the water side. It's important to note clean energy business fund agreement was signed on rev- that, with regards to that particular project. enue generated from water rental. What the member has actually asked, particularly I believe what I read was that the agreement that the around what may or may not be happening up in the province and the Tahltan signed in this regard was worth northeast around water…. Unfortunately, those are about $2.5 million a year. If the minister could confi rm questions that you'll have to take up with the Minister of that that was revenue generated in this agreement from Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations. When water rentals associated with the Forrest Kerr project, I'd we move forward working on projects with First Nations, appreciate it. particularly around the power generation projects, we [1530] negotiate the opportunity for the revenue-sharing com- ponent. Th at's based on numbers that are given out to us Hon. J. Rustad: Before we go on to the Forrest Kerr, from the other ministry. you were wondering about the diff erences and kind of puzzling around the economic community development D. Donaldson: I don't know if I caught the last part. agreement and IBAs. Maybe I could bring some clarity Based on numbers given to your ministry from other around that. ministries or from the Ministry of Forests, Lands and Th ose agreements, of course, particularly in the case of Natural Resource Operations. Is that what the minis- a mine, are the revenue-sharing opportunity that comes ter said? from the province. What an IBA typically looks to do are employment opportunities and training and those Hon. J. Rustad: It's my understanding that under types of things. Th ey're complementary in terms of how the Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations those two agreements can work when a resource project Ministry, they actually set the rates and enter into the goes forward. agreements with regards to the land and water. Th en, of With regards to Forrest Kerr and the $2.5 million that course, they let us know what that amount is, and it be- was referred to by the member, we actually look at the comes part of how we negotiate with the First Nations. clean energy side as being an enormous potential. Many First Nations look forward to the opportunity to engage D. Donaldson: Th anks for that clarifi cation. Th e min- within that. Forrest Kerr, of course, is the fi rst. Th ere is ister referred to the $2.5 million per year that will be ac- no current revenue fl owing from that. When the project cruing to the Tahltan in this agreement once the project is up and running, there will be the opportunity for rev- is up and running — which should be pretty soon, we enue, and we believe it'll generate $2.5 million. Th at's, in hope — as long as the NTL completion date is arrived at, part, due to water and land rental revenue that would right? Th e minister said it was a mixture of water rent- normally be accrued to the Crown. als and — I don't know the exact word, but I understand what he is getting at — land rental as well, or land value, D. Donaldson: Th anks for that answer. Yes, the $2.5 land rents. How much of that $2.5 million is the water million fi gure was confi rmed by the minister, and that rental and how much is the land rents? raises an interesting point. If that is the water rental com- ponent with the Forrest Kerr project…. Let me get the Hon. J. Rustad: As much as I would like, perhaps, to wording straight here: "New, net, incremental revenues go into talking about the history of the northern trans- to government derived from water rentals." mission line, I will leave that alone for the sake of wanting Th at's a share that the Tahltan would accrue in this to allow the member opposite as much time as possible agreement. Th en obviously, that's something that the for questions. provincial government believes the water is worth in a Specifi cally to the water and land and the breakdown water rental. By the same token, then, my understanding that he's asked for, these are just projections, of course, is that…. Well, I guess the question is: where does the at this point, in terms of what that revenue will be. We government derive that valuation from? have to wait until things get up and running. However, [1535] we will need to get back to you, and perhaps we could What I understand is that water, for instance, that is provide that information to you in terms of how that used in the northeast or for fracking is not at a cost to in- breakdown is derived. dustry. So on one hand, you're valuing water at upwards of $2.5 million a year in a water rental, and on the other D. Donaldson: I appreciate the minister making the hand, you're not valuing water at all for use in the frack- off er to get back to me on that, and I would look forward ing industry in the northeast. to that information. Th is ministry negotiated the First Nations clean energy Hon. J. Rustad: I want to correct something with re- business fund agreement with the Tahltan. gards to the Forrest Kerr. It's for both water and land [1540] 1162 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
I'm curious to know how the water rental component Of course, one of those conditions — No. 4, again, co- was evaluated in this independent power project. Was it incidentally — was that in regards to the pipeline, ab- on use of water under the water rental — in other words, original rights and aboriginal legal considerations would the amount of water fl owing through this project, or was be respected. Th at brings up the case of the Yinka Dene it on electricity generated? What was the evaluation? Alliance. Th ey feel and they believe that those rights are not being respected in regards to the potential for grant- Hon. J. Rustad: Once again, I think you might be bet- ing Enbridge permits to do geotechnical exploration ter to be speaking with the Minister of Forests, Lands work on their territories. I'm sure the minister is familiar and Natural Resource Operations around this. How these with this, because it is a First Nations issue. things are calculated is based on the projected Crown Th e Yinka Dene are linking what they feel is a reversal revenue on the water that would be used as part of the of position by the government, which is saying on the project as well as, of course, as I mentioned before, the one hand that Enbridge is not meeting condition No. 4 land component. around legal considerations of aboriginal rights. On the other hand, they're in the process of considering grant- D. Donaldson: Thanks to the minister. Yes, I will ing — and the Yinka Dene are worried that that process pursue that — obviously, in a diff erent venue, because is already completed — geotechnical exploration permits Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations esti- for Enbridge on their traditional territories. As you know, mates are over now. I fi nd it interesting that the minis- they're not in favour of the Enbridge pipeline, along with ter cannot point to what the criteria is, because it's this many First Nations across the north. ministry that actually negotiated that agreement with So they are linking this issue to LNG pipeline propos- the Tahltan. als across their traditional territory. I'm sure the min- Whether that Crown revenue is based on water usage ister knows it well, because I believe a large portion of or electrical generation…. Th e fact is that there is criter- it — perhaps all of the Yinka Dene Alliance — is in his ia to charge for water usage and reap benefi ts from that constituency. in the case of an independent power project, but when it What is the ministry doing in regards to this issue? comes to using water in another situation, like for frac- I believe it's not just a FLNRO — Forests, Lands and king, it's not seen to be valued in the same way — or at Natural Resource Operations — permitting issue. It's also all — by the province. an important issue for this ministry to consider because I'll take that up, on the minister's advice, with Forests, it relates to the mandate letter that the minister received, Lands and Natural Resource Operations and look for- No. 3, about working with B.C. First Nations around the ward to the breakdown that he committed to providing LNG issue. for me — out of that $2.5 million, what the water com- ponent is and what the land component is. Hon. J. Rustad: Before I get to the answer on that I'll move on. Time is fl eeting. It's fl eeting when you're question, I wanted to remind the member opposite that having fun, I guess, and we're having fun here, I think. I when we were talking about the revenue generation from am, anyway. Forrest Kerr, it was not the electrical generation. I was I'd like to move on to the mandate letter. Of course, talking about the water and land rental revenues that every minister got a mandate letter, and this minister was come from that. no diff erent. I'm sure he's read it numerous times over [1550] and committed to the seven points that the Premier laid With regards to the permitting approvals in regards to out for him as part of his priorities. any sort of project that goes forward, I think the mem- I'm going to go a roundabout way of getting to the one ber, unfortunately, will have to go and ask the Ministry of part of the mandate that I want to ask a question about, FLNRO about their process of that going forward. and that is the potential — I believe it's point 4 — around As I have said — I mentioned this, I think, when this working with First Nations "that are in the area of a new question came up in question period — the fi ve condi- proposed refi nery to ensure that they are provided with tions, once again, have not been met, including condition the opportunity to participate in and benefi t from this No. 4, which the member had referred to. economic opportunity." With regards to the Yinka Dene group and LNG, of First of all, before we talk about the refi nery, let's talk course, there's the Pacifi c Trails project, which is a pro- about the transportation of bitumen across the north. I ject that is quite advanced and one of the projects that know that the minister has been on record recently in the we're hoping will be going forward shortly in terms of media, saying that in regards to the Enbridge proposal, LNG. Most, if not all, of the Yinka Dene groups actually the minister felt the Enbridge proposal was still lacking have supported that project and are part of the 15 that on the fi ve conditions that the Premier put in front of it are in support, and part of the partnership that has been in order to approve the project. formed around that. [1545] Th ere is one member of the Yinka Dene that is not Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1163
part of that Pacifi c Trails. Th ey have chosen to back out of Interest in Black's Refi nery Is Easy to Explain." Th is is of that. But the other 15 are in support of the LNG and the refi nery that's being referred to in the mandate let- that particular project going forward. ter, No. 4. The proposed refinery is a proposal by newspaper D. Donaldson: Th anks for that. Th e actual supply of publisher David Black. Th e author of this article from a refi nery was a way of getting to mandate No. 4 in the the Fraser Institute lays out a very compelling argument mandate letter the minister received, which is: "Work about why this proposed refi nery is not going to see with B.C. First Nations that are in the area of a new much interest from producers, meaning the companies proposed refi nery to ensure they are provided with the that actually produce the bitumen. opportunity to participate in and benefi t from this eco- He talks about: nomic opportunity." Can the minister elaborate on who "Producers selling crude oil to refineries on the west coast the First Nations are, in the ministry's opinion, in this would unlikely be able to make the same profi t as they could from exporting to growing markets in Asia, despite the greater area of a new proposed refi nery? transportation costs." In other words, he's pointing out that companies ex- Hon. J. Rustad: To the question that the member has porting the raw bitumen product would be able to make posed, the discussions around a potential refi nery or more money doing that than selling it to a refi nery that proposed refi nery in the northwest is actually within the Premier is actually putting in this minister's man- the Tsimshian First Nations. In particular it's around date letter. the Kitselas. Th e proposed location is directly adjacent Another quote from this article: to treaty lands that have been proposed for the Kitselas. "Finally, the largest petroleum producers, those with suffi cient fi nancial strength and fl exibility to invest in oil refi neries as well D. Donaldson: Is the proposed location of this refi n- as new oil production facilities, have other objectives. Large ery close to the former community of Kitsault in Alice Canadian oil companies such as Suncor Inc. and Canadian Natural Resources Ltd. plan to continue to develop their oil sands produc- Arm, or is it in a diff erent location? tion capacity, the highly specialized business that they know best." In other words, he's also pointing out that the capital that Hon. J. Rustad: Th e proposed refi nery is not close to these companies might be asked to contribute towards an the community mentioned. It is actually, in my under- oil refi nery facility is not what they're interested in doing. standing, and I'm using very rough numbers here, about Th ey're interested in extracting the bitumen from the tar two-thirds of the distance between Kitimat and Terrace. sands and exporting it. Th at's the way they get their best [1555] bang for their buck. He concludes: D. Donaldson: Th anks very much for that. I'm famil- "Black cannot count on the producers to participate in his iar with the Kitselas Canyon. I drive that route occasion- project." ally, so perhaps I'm familiar with where this proposal [1600] might lie. I fi nd it a real lack of foresight on priorities when the Th e mandate letter says: "Work with B.C. First Nations Premier includes, as No. 4 on the list…. In a ministry that are in the area of the new proposed refi nery." What that has so much more on their agenda about real things kind of work is underway, or what kind of work does the happening today, especially with treaty and non-treaty minister anticipate that involving? agreements, she is compelling the minister to look into a new proposed refi nery that expert economists say is Hon. J. Rustad: Th is is, of course, just a proposal. At somewhat of a fl ight of fancy. this particular point it has come forward. It's very early I'm glad to hear that not much work has been done days with regards to this. Our involvement at this par- right now. I don't know what the performance measure ticular stage is just scoping interests around this. Th ere is will be on No. 4 in the mandate. Perhaps the minister nothing substantial that has gone on at this point. could elaborate on how he's going to judge whether he's met mandate No. 4 in his letter around this proposed D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that elaboration on the new refi nery. work. I fi nd it a little bit curious — curious isn't even a good word — why the Premier would include it as No. 4 Hon. J. Rustad: Th e member has raised a couple of in a seven-point list about the mandate for the minister. questions that I think probably would be better referred To mention this, working with this proposed new refi n- to the Offi ce the Premier and perhaps also to the offi ce ery, it just seems to be that more important things could of the minister responsible for natural gas. be worked upon. However, I do want to make mention that part of what I'm quoting from an op-ed from the end of June by we're trying to do in the province is to explore potential Gerry Angevine, an economist and senior fellow with economic development. Th e LNG industry has the po- the Fraser Institute. Th e headline defi nes it all: "Th e Lack tential to attract tens of billions of dollars in investment 1164 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
and create thousands upon thousands of long-term jobs With regards to something like a refi nery, this is still as well as construction jobs generating a phenomenal the very early phases of a proposal that's coming forward. amount of potential, including the potential to elimin- We have done some initial scoping in interest around ate our debt over time. that. If that proposal goes forward and becomes more More than that, more than LNG, there are other eco- advanced, then I'm sure there will be some other options nomic opportunities across the province. Th e mandate that might be looked at down the road. At this stage, like letter, as I said…. We're to explore those opportunities I say, it's still very early days on things like that. with First Nations around non-treaty agreements, around When you look across at the seven points that we have the other types of potentials that we have around here. on here, if you notice, they're all designed around our Th ere has been a proposal that has come forward that is strong economy, securing tomorrow and sharing those in the $10 billion or $20 billion range to look at the po- opportunities and prosperity between aboriginal and tential for a refi nery. non-aboriginal alike — developing the potential, particu- As a province, we embrace people coming and looking larly the resource potential, within our province, creating at our province for economic opportunity. Th ey have to, the kind of employment and creating the kind of revenue obviously, meet our standards. Part of what we do as a opportunities that support programs and that can change ministry is engage in whatever format we can as the pro- lives, particularly for our aboriginal people in the prov- jects advance. We want to try to attract investment with- ince of British Columbia. in the province of British Columbia. It's part of our jobs plan. It's part of what we're trying to do to help build our D. Donaldson: Th anks for that. Th ere's a saying. Of economy and be able to provide services. Th at's broadly course, I'm not very good at sayings, so I'm sure I won't why the points are within the mandate letter. get it right. If you can't measure it, then you don't know, basically, if you're achieving anything. Including some- D. Donaldson: Many of the other points in the man- thing as grandiose as a new proposed refi nery that has date, the seven points, are something that the ministry little credibility within the fi nancial sector, according to is doing good work on and are refl ected in the perform- the Fraser Institute, in a mandate and then not have a ance targets, in the performance measures, in the service performance measure — well, I think that addresses a plan. To put this proposed new refi nery as No. 4 on the lack of seriousness about it overall. list makes you wonder about the seriousness, especially I don't want to get the two mixed up. Th e minister in light of the economic analysis by experts in the fi eld, was referring to No. 3, which is the LNG. Again, this is by the Fraser Institute. LNG proposals. Th e mandate letter is: "Work with First Th e other seven points — most of them do have ways Nations that are impacted by natural gas extraction, pipe- to measure progress based on performance measures in lines or LNG facilities to ensure they are provided with the service plan. But I'm wondering. I don't see anything the ability to participate in this generational opportunity." in regards to working with First Nations in the area of a I understand the ministry has done that in several in- new proposed refi nery, about how the minister will be stances. Th e minister talked about the 15 First Nations able to report on his performance and whether he's met that are participating. I think it's in the First Nations performance measures in reporting out to the Premier Limited Partnership across the north, and then we know and others on that item. Could he elaborate on that? that the ministry has been working with the Haisla on [1605] their plans around an LNG plant. [1610] Hon. J. Rustad: I think it's probably worth noting that What I would like to fi nd out, and I'm sure the min- the service plan that I mentioned, in terms of some of the ister has some opinions to share, is what his approach performance measurements that are in place, was a docu- is to First Nations that have not expressed an interest ment that was tabled as part of the February budget that to participate in LNG. Specifi cally, I'm referring to the came forward. Th e proposal, in terms of a refi nery and Wet'suwet'en, who have made a description that they're particularly the Premier's mention of that in the mandate not interested in pipelines crossing their traditional ter- letter to me, of course, has come aft er that service plan. ritories. More broadly speaking, when you look through the Again, I believe that the minister and I share some of mandate letter, No. 3 is: "Work with First Nations that the traditional territories of the Wet'suwet'en, but spe- are impacted by natural gas extraction, pipelines or LNG cifi cally the territories that are in question here around facilities to ensure they are provided with the ability to pipeline proposals to Kitimat lie in the minister's con- participate in this generational opportunity." Once again, stituency. What is his approach to a First Nation that that's working with First Nations. It's hard to necessarily makes that kind of statement, that they're not interested have a measure around that, but clearly from our per- in this kind of development? spective, the measurement around an item like that is the enormous potential as those projects go forward. Hon. J. Rustad: I want to touch on a little bit, before we Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1165
go into the LNG, the discussion in terms of the potential D. Donaldson: We're straying a bit with the minis- with projects that come forward. Th e member seems to ter's comments away from the Ministry of Aboriginal believe there is a potential for a refi nery, and there may or Relations and Reconciliation as he's delving into the LNG may not be. I'm certainly not an expert in that fi eld. But topic. I wanted to make sure that…. the member's approach in the past, in particular around [1615] LNG before the election, had referenced…. Th eir party Perhaps he misspoke, but I was not suggesting in any had referenced LNG as being a pipe dream. way in regards to the oil refi nery that it's a viable or a When you're looking at potential for projects going potential project. What I was suggesting is that industry forward, it's tough to judge whether something is go- experts say it isn't a viable project, and I was expressing ing to be successful or not, but unless you actually en- my concerns about it being made one of the top prior- gage and try to move things forward and move forward ities in the mandate letter from the Premier to the min- the potential for an opportunity, I know what the result ister, when I believe there's a lot more important work to is. Th ere is no opportunity unless there is the potential be done on topics that are presently before the ministry. — the work done — and somebody dreams up the op- Th at's on the refi nery side. portunity and takes the risk and starts moving forward On the LNG side, what I'm trying to point out here is with the project and engaging with the province and that…. By the mandate letter, one of the minister's top with others. priorities is to work on this fi le in relation to First Nations. Th at's why on this side of the House we look at the If the government feels that this is their mandate to forge potential of projects that come forward. We try to em- ahead on this, then there is certain due diligence that has brace those projects. We try and embrace the opportun- to be done and red fl ags that have to be noted. ities. We engage with them. Some are successful; some I've pointed out that — for instance, with the Gitanyow, are not successful. But from our belief, we need to be when they signed a reconciliation agreement less than a able to engage in those and actually help to create those year ago and then are told that the land use plan, part of opportunities and what they can mean for the people of that agreement, does not apply to pipelines; and now the British Columbia. Yinka Dene, when they are linking the possible issuing Specifi cally to the question around the engagement of permits around Enbridge to the LNG pipeline issue with First Nations on LNG, we have been working very across their territories; and now with the Wet'suwet'en closely with all the First Nations upstream, midstream saying that they don't agree with any pipelines across and downstream — the 15 First Nations that are support- their territories — there is some work to be done if the ive of the Pacifi c Trails project. It is one of those projects. government wants to push ahead in the manner that There are many other First Nations upstream, down- they do. stream, midstream in terms of those projects. We're en- If the government feels that they want to push ahead, gaged with them. We're looking at how we can make sure then there will only be one opportunity to get this right, that they can engage in opportunities for training. We're in order to meet the timelines that industry is saying are looking at how we can make sure that there are revenue- essential. Unless these three issues that I just addressed…. sharing opportunities. Generally, unless work is being done to address those Th is is a transformational type of potential for the kinds of concerns from First Nations, there will no doubt province of British Columbia, especially across northern be delays. Th is government has said that they want to try British Columbia. It's transformational for aboriginal and to take advantage of this opportunity before other juris- non-aboriginal alike. Th e potential coming forward with dictions do. this could really turn a corner and make a real diff erence Th is is not me, this is the minister and the government for so many families and individuals. saying that this is their agenda. What I'm trying to point With regard specifi cally to the Wet'suwet'en, we con- out is that there are First Nations who have concerns tinue to engage with the Wet'suwet'en on these projects around the approach. So when the minister says that and discussions, and we will continue that process, just there is engagement with the Wet'suwet'en, can he de- like we are with all the other First Nations. scribe what that engagement has been recently? Th ere are, I think, some 15-plus LNG proposals right [1620] now that are around the province, primarily focused in the north, that engage with many, many First Nations. Hon. J. Rustad: As you know, of course, it is a priority We're involved in that process, those discussions. We're for us, in terms of LNG, the potential for liquefi ed natural working with the proponents in what we can do, as we're gas — moving those projects forward. We're engaged on working with First Nations to try to bring forward…. a wide range with First Nations across the area in some And we're hopeful that the federal government will also very detailed discussions on a number of fronts. work with us and engage, in terms of how this poten- Specifi cally with the Wet'suwet'en, we have listened to tial can be so transformational and be successful for the their concerns. We're trying to work through that with province of British Columbia as well as for all of Canada. them, but we're also engaged on a number of other fi les 1166 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013 with the Wet'suwet'en. We're taking a holistic approach various issues that come up. in terms of how we engage with the Wet'suwet'en on pro- We have a number of engagements with them. Th at jects like Huckleberry or on social issues, on LNG, etc. is ongoing and continuing in terms of building our re- We try to do that with all First Nations. It's part of how lationship and working towards fi nding resolution on a you build relationships and how you ultimately can come wide variety of issues. to agreements and resolve some diff erences that come up. D. Donaldson: Th anks to the minister for that. I'm D. Donaldson: I'm going to ask a specifi c question, so going to move on to another topic, but I would suggest I understand you might have to talk to staff about this. that the social issues are not the same as the governance When was the last time the ministry engaged with the issues that the Wet'suwet'en are interested in, especially Offi ce of the Wet'suwet'en on governance issues that re- in regards to development on their territories. late to the LNG proposals and the Pacifi c Trails pipeline? Th e topic I'm going to move on to now is actually in a diff erent vein. It's the off -reserve aboriginal action plan. Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite: could I ask We're moving to a new topic area here, and I hope the you for some clarity around the question, some clarifi ca- minister is prepared to answer some questions on this tion on the question in terms of…? If I remember right, important plan. you're asking about how we engage with governance that Th e off -reserve aboriginal action plan. Th e protocol related to LNG? agreement was signed in October 2012, so just about a year ago. In estimates last year the then Minister of D. Donaldson: Sorry. I don't know if I posed that as…. Aboriginal Relations said that the ministry was plan- It's getting later in the day, of course, for both of us, lis- ning to bring back a plan very soon in regards to the off - tening and speaking. reserve aboriginal action plan. Th e Offi ce of the Wet'suwet'en represents the heredi- We know that it's to address the social and economic tary chiefs and on whose territory one proposed pipeline conditions of those living off reserve — which is, from will cross and the Pacifi c Trails pipeline, which has its en- my understanding, the majority of the population of vironmental certifi cate, is being proposed to cross. In the First Nations in B.C. I think the number is 72 percent of past, on the Pacifi c Trails pipeline proposal, in speaking B.C. First Nations living off reserve now, 60 percent in with the Offi ce of the Wet'suwet'en, they felt that the pro- an urban environment. ponent was doing a lot of the groundwork and that the Can the minister update me on where the plan is? I governance issue, which is a government-to-government went on the ministry's website and couldn't actually fi nd relationship with the province, was not being addressed the plan that the previous minister referred to last year to their satisfaction. in estimates, saying it was going to be ready very soon. Now we have this situation where the hereditary chiefs [1630] — I attended a feast in Moricetown in mid-April — de- clared that they were not in support of any pipelines [J. Sturdy in the chair.] across their territories, which meant Enbridge, which meant proposed natural gas pipelines. At the basis of that Th e Chair: Minister. is the government-to-government relationship, I believe, which they feel needs attention. Hon. J. Rustad: Welcome, Chair. Th ank you for join- So the question was: when was the last time the min- ing us today. istry met with the Offi ce of the Wet'suwet'en, the her- editary chiefs, on a government-to-government issue Th e Chair: Th ank you. I understand it's riveting. like this? [1625] Hon. J. Rustad: Well, I'm enjoying it. I heard earli- er that the member opposite was enjoying it too. It is a Hon. J. Rustad: In recognition that it is getting a little great opportunity to be able to talk about a wide variety bit long in terms of the process, I appreciate the mem- of things that are going on in the ministry which, from ber's patience and our ability to work through the ques- my perspective, are quite positive in terms of how we're tions that he has. developing our relationships with First Nations and the Specifi cally, with the engagement on a government-to- opportunities we have moving forward. government level with the Offi ce of the Wet'suwet'en…. Specifi cally, on the off -reserve aboriginal action plan. For example, my assistant deputy minister, Peter Th e number, I think, is 74 percent or thereabouts that are Cunningham, was up there in the last two or three weeks off reserve and 60 percent, of course, in an urban area. in discussions with them on social issues and on a num- On the commitment and what we had talked about ber of other issues. Our ministry is in contact with them with the plan before. From there, we formed a provincial almost on a daily basis, back and forth, depending on the coordination team that involves representatives of the Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1167
aboriginal organizations and all levels of government to ing to bring forward innovative ideas and scalable solu- oversee the development and implementation of ORAAP. tions that we could move forward, looking at the process. We built a funding partnership with the federal govern- As you know, there are signifi cant resources that are in- ment, through the Urban Aboriginal Strategy, to support vested both federally and provincially through a number ORAAP. We signed a memorandum of collaboration with of programs. So this is to look at some of the innovative Aboriginal Aff airs and Northern Development Canada ways that we get to use those existing resources to per- and a protocol agreement with the B.C. Association of haps improve the outcomes. Aboriginal Friendship Centres, which guides the work Th rough the competition and the amount that was go- of the parties to improve the socioeconomic outcomes ing out, that was part of it. Th at was apprised in terms for urban aboriginal communities. of trying to drive engagement, trying to drive opportun- From that effort, we implemented five ORAAP ities and bringing forward those ideas that can ultimately community-based pilot projects — I'll give you the com- lead to those improvements in outcomes. But specifi cally munities of those fi ve: one in Vancouver, Surrey, Prince around those pilot projects over the last fi scal year, the George, Kamloops and Duncan — to develop plans that amount of money that was allocated to it — the province refl ect local interests and improve socioeconomic out- put $450,000 towards those pilots, and the feds matched comes for aboriginal people. with, I think, $355,000. We also implemented an aboriginal social innovation [1640] competition to mobilize aboriginal communities and organizations to generate innovative ideas that have a D. Donaldson: Th ank you for that. I'm still unsure positive social impact. From that information, those pi- of the minister's answer to a previous question, whether lot projects going on, there is some advice and recom- there is an off -reserve aboriginal action plan in place yet, mendations. Th at'll be coming forward from that, and I or whether, despite the comments in the estimates pro- expect to have that information to the ministry, hopefully, cess last year from the then Aboriginal Relations Minister within the coming number of months. that the plan would be there soon, it's still not…. Th ere's not a plan that you fi nd on the ministry's website. So D. Donaldson: Th anks for that information. I have maybe if he could elaborate on that. a few questions about the off-reserve aboriginal ac- Secondly, he did mention that the B.C. Association tion plan. My understanding is it's to close the socio- of Aboriginal Friendship Centres is now a signatory to economic gaps for off -reserve aboriginal people in British this process. Th ey published in November 2011 their Columbia. Th at's a huge topic and wide-ranging and re- recommendations around actions to be included in the quires resources. off -reserve aboriginal action plan. Some of them are Another former Minister of Aboriginal Aff airs wrote process-oriented. I believe that the ministry has adopt- a letter to Prince George council in December 2012, just ed some of it. last December, outlining what the government's plans But one of them, No. 3 in their recommendations, is: were around the off -reserve aboriginal action plan. As "Long-term capacity fund investment in friendship cen- the minister points out, one of the pilot communities tres." Th ey have presented this in other ways, but this is was Prince George and the friendship centre in Prince the newest iteration: "25 percent increase in capacity in- George. She wrote that ORAAP, which is the acronym vestment over four years, totalling $3.1 million annually for the program, will "include support for collaborative by year 4" — in other words, an approximate $3 million social innovation approaches at the community level." investment by the province in friendship centres aft er a Well, these are huge issues. I understand that some of four-year process as part of this off -reserve aboriginal the support was $15,000 to three diff erent communities action plan. as winners of the fi rst off -reserve aboriginal action plan Can the minister comment on the recommendations Aboriginal Social Innovation Competition. So $45,000 by the B.C. Association of Aboriginal Friendship Centres is a pittance compared to what we know needs to be re- in regards to the off -reserve aboriginal action plan? sourced to address this huge issue. [1635] Hon. J. Rustad: With regards to the plan as referred When the minister talked about funding arrange- to in the fi rst part of his question, it's important to note ments that had been signed, I believe, with the federal that the work on the pilots that went forward in the fi ve government…. Could he elaborate on what the plans areas was work that actually began in late fall of 2012. are around that? Th at work has now come to fruition. We're expecting that the report will be coming up, Hon. J. Rustad: To the member opposite: it is get- hopefully this fall, and then from there…. Of course, the ting to be a little bit of a long day, and I apologize for B.C. Association of Aboriginal Friendship Centres is a the length of time in terms of getting the answer to you. full partner in this process, and we'll be working with Th e process that we put in place was really around try- them and with our partners when those recommenda- 1168 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
tions come forward in developing the next actions that Finance Minister around increased support for increased will be taken. investment in friendship centres. Specifi cally, though, to the funding request, as the Would the minister not think that fi nding ways to in- member has asked, around the B.C. Association of vest…? I think the friendship centres are looking for a Aboriginal Friendship Centres, we really recognize the lift in their investment. I mean, they've got about $25,000 work that the aboriginal friendship centres are doing. or a little bit less per friendship centre now in core sup- Th ey are doing great work around the province. We're port from the provincial government. I think that there partnering with them on that, but we also face the real- are now 25 friendship centres in B.C. Th ey're looking to ity of the No. 1 in my mandate letter, as we talked about improve that substantially, but still not a huge ask. I think earlier, which is to support the balanced budget and to that it's up to $2.9 million a year. be able to live within our fi scal means in terms of that, When you talk in the context of a balanced budget…. going forward. And I don't want to let that comment slip. We maintain So the funding coming forward to this year to the that the budget presented by the government is not bal- friendship centres is basically the same funding level that anced. But beyond that, if you want to try to make the was in place for last year. argument about money well spent, would the minister [1645] not agree that this is money well spent and he could make that argument at Treasury Board that there should be an D. Donaldson: Well, I want to elaborate a little bit on improvement in the fi nancial contribution, the invest- friendship centres. Given the context of the discussion ment by the province in friendship centres and, therefore, we've been having regarding the off -reserve aboriginal in issues urban aboriginal people are facing? action plan and the growing numbers of First Nations [1650] in B.C. who are living in urban centres. Th ey're being serviced and well serviced on minimal budgets by the Hon. J. Rustad: Th ank you to the member opposite, friendship centres in many ways. of course, for the question. Th e aboriginal friendship Th ere's a very young component to this demographic. centres — I think we're in agreement on both sides here Some 66 percent of the urban aboriginal population are with regards to the great work that they do. I seem to re- under 25. Friendship centres point out that over a ten- member the presentation coming forward one or two of year period, demand for their services have more than the years that I was on the Finance Committee. I can't re- doubled. member the recommendations around that — whether I I think that if you're talking about effi ciencies and get- was part of the Finance Committee that recommended it ting the best return for your dollars spent — which is going forward or not. But certainly, the work that they do part of considerations around budget allocations — the is valuable work. It's important work, especially with the friendship centres provide that in spades when it comes number of aboriginal people that are living off reserve. to programs they're running in small centres, and in larger centres. I mean, we have the friendship centres Of course, as I mentioned earlier, we are in a challen- in places like Vancouver and Prince George and also in ging fi nancial time, and we are working to balance our smaller centres like Smithers, as the minister is likely budget. Th at's a promise that we made to the people of aware. British Columbia, and it's a promise that we take very I know that funding for the friendship centres does not seriously. I'm actually very pleased that we've been able just come directly from Ministry of Advanced Education, to maintain the amount of money that has come for- but they receive some funding from the fi rst citizens fund. ward with that. Th at has decreased from last year to this year, and from If opportunities come up in the future, certainly I'd this year to next year we see a decrease in that. We can be looking at this, but I'm very much looking forward get into that a little later in the budget on those line items. to the recommendations that come forward through the Th ey've received funding from the new relationship trust, pilot projects through ORAAP and looking at how we which is also an issue, because they've seen an inability can implement those and developing a strategy around to maintain their funding to diff erent programs that they those sorts of recommendations. Once again I want to re- provide support to. iterate that a balanced budget going through means that The friendship centre has made strong arguments you have to live within your means, you have to be able around the need for increased core funding from the to create the opportunities and support the opportunities province. In fact, the minister and I shared a couple that are important, such as we have with the aboriginal years anyway on the Finance Committee together. In the friendship centres. Finance Committee — I don't know if it was during our It also means that there are many, many asks and many time or later — six members from the government and things that we'd like to be able to see happen, but we have four members from the offi cial opposition endorsed reso- to make sure that we are balanced and that we respect lutions and recommendations in our fi nal report to the taxpayers' dollars. Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1169
D. Donaldson: Well, I don't especially appreciate ing, which was held recently. the comments about living within our means. I mean, I So we obviously work closely with them. Th ey also could get into numerous examples of where the priority work with the provincial offi ce of domestic violence in of this government that the minister is representing has terms of those recommendations and in terms of work- strayed from what I think are top priorities. We could talk ing forward on opportunities for us to address the issues. about $15 million spent on government advertising on a jobs plan, and here we have friendship centres trying D. Donaldson: Th anks for that information from the to beg the government for enough resources to service minister. Yeah, I mean, it's a totally unacceptable situa- and to deliver programs to some of the most marginal- tion. I think you would agree, when you look at the sta- ized people in the province. We have lots of reports on tistics and the level of violence that aboriginal women how marginalized many First Nations are, even in com- encounter compared to the rest of the population, it's a parison to worldwide socioeconomic standards. It's an very, very grim reality. abysmal situation. I noticed in the news release that was issued when this I don't want to spend our last 25 minutes together to- advisory council, MACAW, was established back in 2011 day and in this session going back on that, but I think — the news releases from that — in the quick facts that that the minister should give me some leeway to have that were listed was that MACAW would meet at least twice kind of response to his idea that we need to tighten our a year with the minister. So I would like to know when belts and set priorities and be cognizant of that. I'm going the minister plans to meet with MACAW. to jump to another topic because, as I said, we only have Secondly, one of the goals in their terms of reference a limited time left , and there are many topics to canvass. is to identify outcomes needed to improve quality of life As I said before, I'll provide some written questions as for aboriginal women. well, the ones we didn't get to. Th is is directly in relation [1700] to — I won't call it a program, but one of the agencies; I would ask the minister whether he will be discussing no, that's not even the right word — one of the councils with MACAW one very important outcome that I think that the minister and the ministry are responsible for. he and I are very aware of, that would improve the situa- Th at's the Minister's Advisory Council on Aboriginal tion for First Nations women in the north and improve Women. Now, this came out of a forum back in June 2011. the quality of life for aboriginal women. It's the issue of Th e forum was called a Collaboration to End Violence: a shuttle bus between communities on Highway 16, the National Aboriginal Women's Forum. so-called Highway of Tears, something that was recom- One of the outcomes of that forum was to create this mended by the Highway of Tears Symposium back seven Minister's Advisory Council on Aboriginal Women, and years ago, held in Prince George, where over 500 people they came up with a terms of reference. It's especially attended, including representatives from the government to address the issue of violence in regards to aboriginal side and from the opposition side. women, which is an extremely important topic. Th e inci- dence is extremely high compared to the rest of the popu- [M. Dalton in the chair.] lation. In fact, the mandate is to address the root causes and social and economic challenges that oft en leave ab- Th ose are two questions: when does the minister plan original women and girls exposed to violence. on meeting — as the news release said, it's supposed to [1655] be at least twice a year with the minister — and will he I haven't been able to fi nd much on the government's be discussing with them one of the intended outcomes website about what has happened since the creation of needed to improve the quality of life, the shuttle bus ser- the terms of reference for the committee and the work vice proposal recommendation on Highway 16? that it's been doing and how the ministry is supporting it. So if the minister could elaborate on that, I'd appreciate it. Th e Chair: Minister.
Hon. J. Rustad: Th e Minister's Advisory Council on Hon. J. Rustad: Th anks very much. Welcome again Aboriginal Women, or MACAW, as I will refer to it…. back here, hon. Chair. Going through, of course, there are ten members that are To the member opposite: to the question of this terrible on that. Th e chair of that is Wendy Grant-John. issue, I think we both agree we don't want to see issues Th ey had their initial strategic planning session in like this for women. I want to reiterate that our govern- March, 2012. Th ey came forward with a number of in- ment is committed to a legacy of safety and security for itiatives, including things like giving voice for forums vulnerable aboriginal women and girls. for women in communities, developing educational Specifi cally, to the potential meeting with MACAW. and awareness materials — also things like focusing on Th e Minister's Advisory Council on Aboriginal Women men and a number of other things that they looked at. were planning to try to have that meeting early in the fall. Actually, they've just fi nished their second strategic meet- Th e date is still yet to be fi rmed up, but I'm certainly com- 1170 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
mitted to the two meetings per year with that committee. in interest being accrued each year. What we see is the With regards to the specifi c recommendation along investment fund slowly depleting because the need is so Highway 16, a place where we both live and have been great, and the trust board has decided to continue with for many, many years, I would ask that the member can- the $6 million level and not reduce it any further. vass the Minister of Justice around that particular issue, What they have written to us about is that they feel as she is the one who is directly responsible for those there was a commitment made by the government, when implementations and recommendations. the fund was fi rst established, to replenish it back to the $100 million level when it was depleted. Th at, they D. Donaldson: Th ank you, Chair, and welcome again believe, was a promise made by the B.C. government to our last 20 minutes or so of this estimates debate. through former Premier Campbell. Th ank you for the response. I'll take that into consider- My question to the minister is: will he be honouring ation. I have raised it in a number of diff erent forums, and this commitment and replenishing the fund, once it is the Minister of Justice is another good one. I've raised it depleted, back to the $100 million level? with the Minister of Transportation as well. I think that [1710] together, perhaps…. It's another one of these issues that I started off to- Hon. J. Rustad: Th e new relationship trust is some- day's debate about — issues in regards to the biomedical thing that I think has had a great value. It has created experiments with First Nations children at residential some signifi cant opportunity for First Nations. It has school back in 1942 to 1952 — where we could put our created opportunities for First Nations, particularly to shoulders together and show solidarity. I think, again, take advantage of other opportunities that actually have with the Highway 16 Trail of Tears issue and the public presented themselves to First Nations. transit issue around that, it's a good issue for us to work Th e spending, as I understand it, as the member has together and show solidarity on as well. Hopefully, we said, is about $6 million each year, allocated over the can fi nd avenues to do that in. next three years. Th at's allocated between fi ve areas in I'm going to again jump…. We're sort of playing a governance: capacity, education, culture and language, quick round here of diff erent topics, so we can at least youth and elders and, of course, economic development. canvass another one before our time is up. Th is is the We actually value the work that they're going through. new relationship trust. It is an independent trust. It's at arm's length from gov- We know the new relationship trust is arm's length. It's ernment, making decisions with the governance board. a trust that was established under the agreement when Of course, we're working closely with them, encouraging the new relationship was being negotiated. It was origin- opportunities as they come up. ally…. I think it was back in 2006 when it was originally We do value the trust and the work that it's doing. constituted with a $100 million fund, that investment Specifi cally as to how the trust will be managed, those fund they have been using to support some pretty stra- are decisions, I think, that the board is going to need to tegic activities in governance, in education, in language be making going forward. and culture — many important areas — economic de- velopment. D. Donaldson: I take that as a…. In the answer I didn't [1705] hear anything about a commitment to honour what the I think the governance one is especially pertinent to trust feels was a commitment to replenish the fund back the discussion these days when the province is signing so up to $100 million when it was depleted. many non-treaty agreements and trying to move ahead with sometimes massive projects on First Nations terri- Hon. J. Rustad: To reiterate, the trust is at arm's length tories. Th e support that the trust plays in the governance from government. Th e trust is run by a board of gov- and being able to build capacity in a First Nation to deal ernors, and they make decisions as to how that money with those kinds of proposals is essential if the province should be spent on their priorities and how much of that wants to see progress on that front. money should be spent. As government, because it's at Th e issue here, of course, with the world fi nancial situ- arm's length, we don't tell them how they should man- ation in the last number of years, is that the interest ac- age that money. crued from this account has not been as much as what I want to reiterate that we do value the work that the the need is in the programming. Th e trust has made a de- trust is doing. We think that it has created opportunities cision in the last number of years to continue their fund- and capacity, which is what it was set up to do. We actual- ing at about $7 million a year for their programming. I ly we look forward to the work that the trust will continue think the programming is an advantage to the province to do, hopefully for many years yet to come. in the way I've described. Th ey have made the decision to drop that to $6 mil- D. Donaldson: Well, the understanding that the New lion a year. What we see is that there is about $3 million Relationship Trust board has is that there was an agree- Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1171
ment, as part of that new relationship, that the fund that would fall under the Minister of Energy and Mines. would be replenished. I take that as a no from the min- ister. D. Donaldson: If this is a quick answer, perhaps I will We've got lots time left . I'll move on to another topic be able to get two more in. I want to get this on the re- before we begin to wrap up. Th at would be in relation- cord. I apologize for hopping back and forth a little bit ship to the Site C project, which is under environmental here, but I'm going to go back to the actual budget and assessment review right now. the First Nations clean energy business fund. I believe it was in the service plan that I noted the min- I want to be able to make sure that we are able to get ister had some mandate to work on the Site C proposal in an answer from the minister on this. It is one of the ma- regards to First Nations, yet the language used seemed to jor anomalies that we note in this budget — that the First indicate that the Site C project was a done deal. It's not. Nations clean energy business fund drops by 16 percent We know that it is still under environmental assessment from 2012-13 to the estimates for this year, '13-14, and review. It hasn't had its certifi cate issued yet. then drops again by 85 percent in 2014-15. It goes from I want to point out that there was recently an annual $2.151 million in 2012-13 to only $318,000 in '14-15, event called the Paddle for the Peace. I think it just hap- and then apparently jumps back up in '15-16 to $2.169 pened earlier this month. I was, unfortunately, unable to million. attend. Perhaps the minister would like to attend next When you look at fi nancial reports and see that kind of year at some time too. It sounded like a great event. wild fl uctuation, it usually raises a red fl ag around what What happened is that the First Nations who will be the heck is going on. My question to the minister is: could impacted by the project, especially the Treaty 8 First he please elaborate on what's going on there? Nations, made it clear again that they're in no way sup- [1720] portive of the Site C project being approved. Liz Logan pointed this out as Tribal Chief of the Treaty 8 Tribal Hon. J. Rustad: Specifi cally to the clean energy…. It Association in an article in the Vancouver Sun on July 12 is an exciting opportunity. We've had many, many First of this month, following the Paddle for the Peace. Th ey've Nations across the province express interest in this, and made that clear. we're working, of course, with them to try to move for- Th is issue was canvassed to a small extent last year ward with those opportunities. in estimates, when the then Minister of Aboriginal Th e reason for the drop in revenue, as we talked about Relations said that the role of the ministry in regards to with Forrest Kerr, is the First Nations clean energy busi- this issue is that although B.C. Hydro is the lead on it, it's ness fund was reduced by the $340,000. It's primarily to support B.C. Hydro and provide support to them, as due to lower projected water and land rental revenues they are the lead. that come in around it. We're expecting those revenues [1715] to recover in the coming years, which is why there will I'm wondering. Especially in relation to First Nations be more dollars available into the future, hopefully, with- issues and the information I supplied to the minister in that fund. about the Treaty 8 not being in favour of Site C dam pro- ceeding, how is the ministry providing input and support Vote 11: ministry operations, $34,552,000 — approved. to B.C. Hydro as the lead regarding First Nations issues on this important topic? Vote 12: treaty and other agreements funding, $43,086,000 — approved. Hon. J. Rustad: On Site C. I think it's important to note that with Treaty 8 and the First Nations in that area, Hon. J. Rustad: Before we rise, I also want to once there is a tremendous amount of economic activity hap- again thank the member opposite for the questions, for pening up in that area, whether it's natural gas, the pipe- the process that we went through. Despite a little bit of lines supporting LNG; whether it's coal development or politics that went on back and forth, I think it went rela- other types of activities — forestry, etc. Site C, of course, tively well — certainly for my fi rst estimates. In your fi rst is one of those. We're actually working with Treaty 8 estimates for Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation I around economic benefi ts agreements. We're working hope that you found the experience good as well. We look with the Treaty 8 nations around revenue-sharing and forward to the written questions that you have brought other types of agreements which encompass all of those forward. components. I also want to take this moment to thank my deputy Specifi cally, the First Nations are being engaged by B.C. minister, Steve Munro, as well as Peter Walters and Peter Hydro around Site C. We are supporting the work that Cunningham and Charles Porter, who are assistant dep- they're doing with our staff in terms of discussions. It is uty ministers, as well as Neilane Mayhew, who is the as- part of broader discussions. I think specifi cally to the Site sistant deputy minister for corporate services and natural C question that you would have in mind, unfortunately resource sector, for their support through this process. 1172 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
With that, I move the committee rise, report resolu- G. Heyman: In that case, I'd ask the minister, in the tions and completion of the estimates of the Ministry of event that no injunctive relief is sought or in the event Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation. that there is no appeal, to answer the question in writ- ing at a later date, once the answer to the question is ac- Motion approved. tually determined. Let me move on to the centralization of freedom of in- Th e committee rose at 5:22 p.m. formation. Th is has led to a large reduction in the num- ber of staff responding to FOI requests. Can the minister please tell the House the number of FTEs now in the in- PROCEEDINGS IN THE formation access operations program areas? How many BIRCH ROOM FTEs are in FOI processing, and how many in records management? Committee of Supply In addition — the minister may not be able to answer this now, but perhaps in writing in the future — are there ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF TECHNOLOGY, reductions in staff contemplated in either of these areas INNOVATION AND CITIZENS' SERVICES as a result of the core review? (continued) Hon. A. Wilkinson: I should correct myself on my Th e House in Committee of Supply (Section C); D. earlier answer so that I will not be dismissed, upbraided, Plecas in the chair. criticized or laughed at by the other member in the room. In fact what may be in question is whether there's a stay Th e committee met at 2:40 p.m. of the decision pending an appeal, rather than an injunc- tion application. I apologize to the lawyers in the room. On Vote 42: ministry operations, $65,290,000 (con- Now, on the issue of FOI, I'm advised that there are 55 tinued). full-time-equivalents in records management and 94 in the freedom-of-information processing section. I believe G. Heyman: I'm now moving to records management that was the extent of the question. and archiving of government records. [1445] The government recently lost a court case against the B.C. Teachers Federation, in which the Supreme G. Heyman: Th ere was also a question about wheth- Court ruled the government was withholding cabinet er the minister believes that further staff reductions in documents far too broadly in response to freedom-of- either of these areas could be contemplated as part of a information requests. I'm wondering if the minister will core review or whether the minister believes that, essen- be instructing information access offi ce analysts to heed tially, we're at rock-bottom staffi ng now, given the diffi - the court decision and release cabinet documents to re- culty and time in responding to requests. questers according to the principles that were set out in Before I ask the minister to answer that question…. the case, and what those instructions might be. Seeing as he re-raised the issue of responding to the court case, I believe that, pending any decision regarding a stay Hon. A. Wilkinson: I must observe that this decision or injunctive relief or an appeal, it is the responsibility of was handed down last week, and the 30-day appeal per- the ministry to proceed in accordance with the dictates iod is still pending. I'm simply not in a position to com- of the court. If I'm correct in that assumption — which I ment, because I'm not aware of any decision having been have reason to believe I am — what steps are being taken? made on whether or not there will be an appeal. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th ank you for restating the ques- G. Heyman: Will the minister or the ministry be heed- tion. I'm sorry for not answering the fi rst round. ing the direction of the court, pending any possible ap- In terms of the core review, I think it's fairly widely peal? known in government now that the exact terms of refer- ence are still in development. I can't say that I anticipate Hon. A. Wilkinson: Without becoming an amateur any eff ects of core review on this ministry until we see lawyer or even a qualifi ed one, I'd have to defer to my col- those terms of reference and see the breadth and depth leagues at the Ministry of Attorney General on whether of the core review. So I'm simply not in a position to an- they would be seeking any injunctive relief or whether swer at this point. they would be proceeding on the basis that they would On the second issue, on whether government would observe the directions in the decision while also consid- be seeking a stay, I'm truly not in a position to answer ering appeal. It becomes a rather convoluted issue, and that question, because it resides with the Ministry of I'm simply not in a position to comment. Justice. In terms of process and procedure pending any Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1173
stay application which would occur within the 30-day and ineffi cient instrument. appeal period, again I have to refer that question to the With that in mind, over roughly the past decade re- Ministry of Justice. cords have not been processed under the terms of the Document Disposal Act but rather have been kept in G. Heyman: Let me move on to the archiving of gov- physical storage, where they are fully accessible for ernment records. We've received information that since freedom-of-information processing by the appropri- 2003 — when archiving of government records was ate staff . moved, as a result of the last core review, to a respon- Now, this is obviously cumbersome. Th e pre-archiving sibility of the Royal B.C. Museum without any matching step of, as the act says, document disposal is a committee funds to actually proceed with archiving — there has not to review the documents and decide which ones are part of eff ectively been proper archiving. the historical record for use 70 or 100 years from now. Th at We've been told that Citizens' Services archivists con- pre-archival processing has not been going on recently, but tinue to appraise government records. Th ose records the records have been retained. Th ey are available. determined as required for full retention are physically In terms of record management, which is obviously stored in off -site storage facilities. But if a member of the closely linked to this issue, 1,523 key government em- public wants to gain access to one of these documents, ployees were trained in records management in the fi scal they're told that the archivists have no authority to order year 2012-13 so that they can deal with this issue, as gov- that the boxes be viewed. Th e reason is that these rec- ernment attempts to fi nd a more durable solution into the ords have never been physically processed by an archiv- future. Th at will deal with this situation whereby records ist. Th erefore, they cannot be made available to the public. have not been disposed of and are just being retained for Now, that's clearly, I would say, fairly serious. So I processing at a later date. would like to ask the minister: what is the procedure to access records generated since 2003, and what is the G. Heyman: If I understand the minister's comment, ministry doing to ensure that the government decisions our assertion — that the public does not have access to are being properly documented and archived and avail- documents that have been archived because they are able to the public? stored and not yet archived — is incorrect, and in fact, We've also heard, coincidentally, that there aren't train- they're accessible to the public on request. So my ques- ing funds in this area or, at least, that they've been severe- tion to the minister: can he reaffi rm that? ly cut. So I'd like to know what training is in fact done to If it turns out that we have further documented in- ensure that civil servants across government understand formation that that is not the case, we will raise that to how to fi le and prepare documents, including electronic the minister's attention. If the minister fi nds out at a records, for proper archiving. later date that there is an answer that is diff erent than How has the now-documented use of personal e-mail the one he's just given me, we would like to receive by various members of the B.C. Liberal government and that answer. But my information is that in fact, they senior offi cials in ministries, which we've already dis- are not readily accessible. Th ey are not archived. Th ey cussed as skirting freedom-of-information laws, aff ected are physically stored off site and not processed, because the historical record? In other words, can the minister there is not suffi cient funding available for staff to do assure the House that the historical record is being ad- the archiving. equately preserved under this system? He stated earlier that he and his ministry have made it Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm sorry if my answer was in- clear that every record — including, as he said, records complete. Th e member raises a valid point, in that these kept on shoes — needs to be accessible. I would ask: what records which are in the preprocessing state, which are is the process for ensuring that all of these records are kept pending a processing decision and potential over- properly archived so they can be accessible? haul of our document management system for archival [1450] purposes…. Th ose documents are not available to the general pub- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th at's a fairly wide swath of ques- lic for review, the reason being that the processing com- tions. I'm going to try and answer it as comprehensively mittee under the Document Disposal Act has as one of as I can. its obligations to ensure that privacy issues are fully ad- Th e member opposite is correct, in that the archiv- dressed before documents are processed into the his- ing of documents is an established process based on the torical record so that an individual does not fi nd that olden days of pure paper records and relying upon the their private information is suddenly available publicly Document Disposal Act, which I believe was passed in to historians. 1935. Th ere has been no updating of that act since, so in [1455] the advent of the electronic era and the proliferation of Th e corollary of that is that to permit suitable public electronic data, the Document Disposal Act is a blunt access to those pre-archived records, if I can call them 1174 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
that — the records over the last ten years that have been in the developed world, how to manage the cumbersome physically retained but not yet processed…. Th e access and awkward transition from the paper world — which system to those records…. To ensure protections of pri- stopped, eff ectively, in about 1990 — to the electronic vacy and security and all of the other factors that go into world, which only recently got fully underway in the last the decisions, those records are available through free- couple of years. dom of information but are not available for perusal in an [1500] archival or museum setting in their original form. Th at transition period has been about 20 years, during which both paper and electronic records have proliferat- G. Heyman: I appreciate the minister's answer, but the ed. I think every government on this continent, certainly, fact remains that responsibility for archiving was turned and in the OECD would acknowledge that they have had over as part of the last core review ten years ago. Th at is diffi culty with this transition. a long time to have limitations on the access to archive Th e essence of this is that the member's concern, con- documents because processing still hasn't happened. ceptually, is valid. We are sorting out how to deal with it The minister gives the reason that that's because the in an aff ordable and manageable fashion. We actually met Document Disposal Act requires updating. Other people with the Privacy Commissioner this morning and heard think there are other reasons, not the least of which is an her views on the release of the open government docu- inadequacy of staff to do the processing. ment, which she made earlier today. I'd simply like to point out and enter into the record that this is not just my concern. It's a concern of the G. Heyman: I would just say to the minister and the Information Commissioner, who just issued a report to- members opposite that I'm glad that you can fi nd some- day. Let me quote. thing to commend about the 1990s. "Here in B.C. in 2003 the British Columbia Archives Let me ask the minister to keep me apprised, as he may merged with the Royal B.C. Museum, and a fee-for- be able to, about the progress of the discussions and, in service model for managing and preserving government particular, about the response to the commissioner's con- archives was introduced. Sadly, this fee has acted as a cern about the fee. signifi cant deterrent." Th is is an additional issue around I'm now going to move on to another part of Shared access — the fee. Services, asset sales and outsourcing. In his budget "Since it was introduced, ministries have not trans- speech the minister stated: ferred any permanent records to the British Columbia "My ministry also includes the integrated workplace solutions Archives. Th is is a matter of serious concern, in view of division, formerly known as B.C. Buildings Corporation, which the damage that this can do, as mentioned above." Th e has responsibility for the overall management of government's real estate portfolio. Ministry staff have already made good progress damage he is referring to is to freedom of information. in the Ministry of Finance's initiative to release surplus property "A full decade of inaction on the archiving of records is assets to ensure that those properties are utilized eff ectively in too much. I call on the government to remove this fee." our economy…." My question for the minister is…. Th e opposition has My question to the minister…. I would add that if the concerns. Th e public have concerns. Th e Information minister would like to provide this in writing at a future Commissioner has concerns. In light of this report to- date…. It may, in fact, be somewhat detailed, at least day, does the minister have plans to meet with the judging by the statements of the minister and other mem- Information Commissioner, as he has on other occasions bers of the government. — there are many issues that have been raised — and ac- How many government assets has the division over- tually make moving ahead on this issue a priority? seen so far? What are they, and what is the value of sales to date? What are the assets specifi c to this ministry that Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e member certainly has a valid have been sold? Were there any ministry assets that were thesis behind the line of questioning, in that all of us have considered for sale and rejected, and if so, what are they? to be concerned about preserving the historical record I'm quite happy to receive that in writing, unless the min- — not only for posterity so that we will all know where ister would rather provide the information now. we came from in the fullness of time but also for reason- able levels of access for research in the recent past and, of Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm pleased to advise that 37 course, freedom-of-information requests, which are part percent of the fi scal goal for this fi scal year has already and parcel of our democracy, not only for the loyal op- been met. I think the member will have recalled that the position but for our media and for our citizens in general. Finance Minister referred to the sale of some sinking fund assets in the range of $120 million, and there has [M. Dalton in the chair.] also been other asset disposal in the range of somewhat over $60 million. In a way, what we have done is found a workable com- promise while we are sorting out, as is every jurisdiction [D. Plecas in the chair.] Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1175
Given that we're now in the second quarter of the year, Nation, who are actively discussing the federal lands with we believe this process is on track. In terms of the specifi c the federal government. Th ere have been no substantial sales of assets and prices obtained and other details, we discussions with anyone that we're aware of. will be providing those to you in writing. D. Eby: I thank the minister for that information. I G. Heyman: I'd now like to invite my colleague the know it'll put a lot of people's minds at rest. member for Vancouver–Point Grey to ask a question. Mr. Chair, I would take this opportunity to ask the minister — if that does change, if the ministry does D. Eby: Th e Jericho lands are a park-like setting in the start to look at disposing of this asset — that the minis- middle of the Vancouver–Point Grey riding and the Point ter commit to a full consultation process with the Point Grey community — a lot of mature trees, a very beautiful Grey community. The West Point Grey Community area. Half of the land is federal. Th ere is a military base Association operates a community centre. Obviously, there. Half is provincial. the Point Grey Academy operates out of there. A lot of A leaked federal memo that came out in the media in kids go to school there; their parents live in the neigh- February indicated that the federal government was on bourhood. the verge of disposing of its half of the property. Ever Also, the community has a lot of thoughts about the since, there has been widespread speculation within the kinds of development that could go there: environment- Point Grey community about the future of this property ally friendly, that would improve aff ordability but that and whether or not the province has been attending these would also fi t in with the character of the neighbourhood. meetings with the federal government, whether they're So I hope the minister will commit to a full consulta- also planning on disposing of its half of the property. tion process before disposing of the property. I'm hopeful that today the minister can please clear the air for the residents of Point Grey and tell them what the Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th is piece of property is well province's plans are for this property. known to many of us, and I think the member oppos- [1505] ite has accurately summarized the shortlist of those who would have opinions on it and would be interested in Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th ank you for the question. Th e any issues that arise or any plans that are formulating. I Jericho lands, as the member describes, consist of two expect there will be fulsome consultation if there is any parcels. progress on any plan to do anything diff erently, other One is the lowland parcel between 4th Avenue and than the status quo, with the Jericho lands. 8th Avenue — federal land which is currently operated as a military base. We understand that the federal gov- G. Heyman: On March 11 this year the government ernment is in discussions about the disposition of that announced that it had signed an agreement to extend property. the contract with Maximus for MSP and PharmaCare Th e upper property, to the west of the federal lands, is for another fi ve years. indeed provincial lands. Th ere are pending leases there I'd ask: who made this decision one month prior to the — one to West Point Grey Academy and the other to the election? And what was the justifi cation for embarking Vancouver parks department — which run until 2020. on a long-term contract so close to the election date? Th e province has not entered into any formal talks with Was the contract tendered, or simply extended? And was First Nations, the city of Vancouver or other stakeholders there a thorough review, prior to the contract being an- regarding the provincially owned lands at Jericho. nounced, with respect to any service delivery concerns, I think it's probably stating the obvious that we will ob- as well as privacy concerns, that have been expressed serve with detailed interest what happens with the federal over the years with respect to this contract? If there was lands and whether there's a disposition there. a review — which I hope there was — could the minis- ter describe what form it took and what kinds of criteria D. Eby: My colleague from Vancouver-Quilchena says were applied? that there haven't been any formal talks. Can he advise [1510] if there are any informal talks or any talks whatever in- volving the disposal of this property by the provincial Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th is issue is essentially in the government, or whether the constituents of Vancouver– bailiwick of the Ministry of Health. It was canvassed, I be- Point Grey can rest easy until at least 2020, at the end of lieve, two days ago, or perhaps it was yesterday, in Health these leases? estimates, and we really have nothing to add to what was said in the estimates of the Ministry of Health. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e extent of any discussions, dia- logue or otherwise about the provincial Jericho lands has G. Heyman: I thank the minister. simply been incidental remarks with the Musqueam First We're ready to move on to ministry operations, Vote 1176 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
17. University of British Columbia. Th ey have developed or Some time ago the Information Commissioner made implemented subsidiary organizations in order to go some recommendations to extend the Freedom of through that real estate development exercise. Information Act to the subsidiaries of universities and other public education bodies aft er a decision that said G. Heyman: I'll just ask one more question, which I they were exempted. In 2006 the then Education Minister hope is a simple yes-no question. In addition to the vari- announced that in fact this would happen. Last October ous subsidiaries, in terms of consultation, will the minis- the former Health Minister expressed an interest, not- ter or the ministry be consulting with the public or with withstanding the fact that it was six years later, in work- stakeholder groups with an interest in freedom of infor- ing with the Information Commissioner on this issue to mation, such as the Freedom of Information and Privacy achieve this goal. Association? My question to the minister is: does the minister or the ministry have plans to move ahead with this? Hon. A. Wilkinson: Yes.
Hon. A. Wilkinson: First of all, I've been admonished G. Heyman: To the minister, I noted in the man- to clarify my answer — I believe I stated this, but in case I date letter given to him by the Premier that part of the didn't, I will anyway — that we will provide a list of assets mandate, a signifi cant part, was to ensure the successful that have been actually sold, and that the ones that are implementation of the B.C. Services Card, which was ac- intended for sale…. Obviously, these are commercially tually launched on February 15 by the government. sensitive situations. We don't want to be diminishing Now, I acknowledge that the minister was not at that the value to the people of British Columbia by publiciz- point the minister, but the government was warned by ing them unduly in a commercially insensitive fashion. the Privacy Commissioner of a number of concerns on Now carrying on with the question about expanding February 8. Th ere were concerns about the need to do freedom of information to apply to subsidiaries of pub- consultation about both the benefi ts and risks inherent lic bodies. Th is is a rather complicated area that I have in the card and to do public consultation. She asked that learned about only recently in terms of its degree of com- the card not be implemented until this consultation has plexity. I've had the opportunity to discuss it twice now taken place. with the Information and Privacy Commissioner, and [1520] there is a mutual acknowledgment that there are a num- I note the minister has mentioned in the House that ber of issues around this that involve commercially sensi- he was planning to consult, but the consultation appears tive information. to only be directed at usage options and not at benefi ts Th ere are numerous stakeholders, who we have now and risks. So I'm asking if the minister can tell us: why embarked upon consultations with. Th is is a work in only now is the government responding to the Privacy progress. Commissioner's request for consultation while the card is actually being implemented? And why — if in fact it will G. Heyman: Can the minister give us any sense of the only be about usage options and not benefi ts and risks range of consultation and bodies with whom the com- — is the advice of the Privacy Commissioner not being missioner and/or the ministry and minister intend to incorporated into the consultation? consult and what the time frame for action on this will be, given that it's now seven years since a former Education Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out that this, like many Minister indicated that there was willingness on the gov- of our answers, is a very positive and fortuitous one, and ernment's part to proceed? we compliment the member on his insightful line of I appreciate that complications need to be addressed, questioning. but time is marching. Th e services card, as he points out, was launched on [1515] February 15 of this year. Th ere was a February 8 statement from the Information and Privacy Commissioner. At the Hon. A. Wilkinson: In terms of the consultations, it same time as the launch, the Privacy Commissioner pro- turns out that there is an array of subsidiary corporations vided a public report indicating that the integrated themselves that need to be consulted to see if this aff ects program has eff ectively designed privacy and security their commercial viability and any intellectual property considerations. they may have access to or have developed. Th e most ob- Now I'm pleased to further report that the Privacy vious categories of these are under the universities and Commissioner more recently stated that there needs the health authorities. to be a fulsome public consultation about the uses of In the universities themselves the major subsidiaries the card and, as the member opposite points out, to ex- are their real estate development vehicles, which are vis- plore with the public benefi ts and risks of those usages ible on the campus at Simon Fraser University and at the beyond simply connecting a driver's licence with MSP Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1177
registration. information offi cer. We had a very productive and positive meaning with In this province our chief information offi cer is able the Privacy Commissioner this morning in which we de- to balance the chief privacy offi cer functions with her scribed to her the terms of reference for a public consul- other information-management duties. Th ere is an on- tation process, which will roll out this fall. It is designed going relationship with the Information and Privacy to be widely inclusive and have a number of elements, Commissioner, where the Privacy Commissioner's views including an expert panel and a public citizens' panel so are made very clearly known to the chief information of- that these issues raised by the member can be properly fi cer. In fact, one of those occurred this morning. So there and thoroughly canvassed and so that we can have, for is a very productive and mutually respectful relationship the benefi t for all British Columbians, a robust, reliable there, which I believe accomplishes the goal. and trustworthy services card which the public will be Th at goal, of course, is to support an enhanced cor- entirely comfortable with. porate culture of privacy across government, with all re- sponsibilities from privacy policy, risk assessment and G. Heyman: If I understood the minister correct- training being the responsibility of the chief informa- ly — and he will, I'm sure, correct me if I didn't — it tion offi cer, who wears this privacy hat at the same time. sounds like, in fact, it is going to be a fulsome consulta- Now, a privacy investigations unit with formalized tion along the lines that I suggested and that the Privacy reporting requirements has been created, and there has Commissioner suggested. If that is in fact the case, I been mandatory training for appropriate members of the would commend the minister and the ministry for do- public service on privacy information-sharing. Th at has ing that. been implemented, and those functions are also managed I hope that, given the fact that the implementation has by the chief information offi cer. been launched, things slow down or halt so that any re- I like to think that within a robust and reasonable sults of the consultation can be incorporated before it's budgetary framework, we are accomplishing the goals too late. Th e minister may or may not want to respond outlined by the member opposite and that we, of course, to that as a question. have the Privacy Commissioner, who is more than ca- But I'd also ask the minister to provide in writing — at pable of keeping us on track. some point, not here today — a description, essentially, of the consultation process, including how much is budget- G. Heyman: We may have to agree to disagree here. ed for public consultation, what form it will take and who Clearly, there were some massive breaches in the Ministry will be consulted. For instance, I assume, from what the of Health, as well as problems in other ministries over the minister said, privacy experts and other experts will be years, that led the Privacy Commissioner to make the consulted. Who will be leading or overseeing the consul- recommendation that there be a privacy offi cer, along tation? Will there be a public report or a public reporting with a number of other recommendations, which I'll get out, and when might that happen? to in a moment. [1525] Th e government obviously has the ability and power to I think that about covers it. But I have another ques- accept the recommendation or not, and in this case it ap- tion to do with the card. Th e Offi ce of the Information pears that it will not. We will have to see what further re- and Privacy Commissioner — in reaction to some sig- ports from the Privacy Commissioner have to say about nifi cant breaches of personal privacy and unsecured data this — if in fact the systems that the minister says are releases on which she has reported and been quite critical now being implemented to meet the goals are up to the of the systems of both establishing clear guidelines and task and adequate. We may revisit this in future estimates. instruction and training in the guidelines on protection Let me ask about one particular recommendation that of privacy — recommended that as a parallel position to the Privacy Commissioner made in her report with re- the chief information offi cer, the government appoint a spect to the breaches in the Ministry of Health. She said chief privacy offi cer. it was a signifi cant concern that aft er the breach, part of I'm asking if the minister is considering that recom- the ministry's reaction was to actually cut off access to mendation, which has not been taken up, to date, and the research data that was essential to meeting the needs what the state of that consideration is. In other words, has and interests of the people of British Columbia. it been rejected? Is it possible? Will it be done? She said that problems could be erased by ensuring that all research is done using a secure system such as Hon. A. Wilkinson: In response to the member's Pop Data B.C., which controls access to information. My query about a chief privacy offi cer, it turns out that the question is simple: is the ministry moving on this recom- current structure for managing privacy functions in our mendation by the Privacy Commissioner? province is consistent with that in most other jurisdic- [1530] tions in Canada. Th e only province with a chief privacy offi cer is Ontario, and that position reports to the chief Hon. A. Wilkinson: As the minister responsible for 1178 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy lowing them. Act, of course I'm deeply concerned about breaches of But the Privacy Commissioner also said that the needs privacy. Th e policy functions of government do lie in of legitimate research could be met through Pop Data this ministry, and of course, we take extraordinary steps B.C. or a similar system. Th e minister seemed to be say- to disseminate and implement those policies and make ing that the ministry is aware of the system, aware of sure that the aff ected staff throughout the public service its possible use, kind of might be looking at it. I really are fully aware of them and fully compliant. couldn't tease out of the answer a clear answer about Nonetheless, privacy breaches do sometimes occur, as whether the ministry is actually considering using that our media ably point out on a perhaps too-frequent basis. to expedite access to necessary data for research. So since 2010 every government employee has been re- By "active" I mean: is the ministry trying to respond quired to take mandatory privacy training. to the very serious issue that was raised by the Privacy We will continue to maintain our close liaison with Commissioner about the need to have access to data to the Privacy Commissioner to make sure that our policy do research? Or is the minister in disagreement with the framework is up to date, robust and capable of full Privacy Commissioner and thinking that the Privacy implementation. Th en, of course, we will be — along Commissioner isn't fully taking into account the public's with the media, the member opposite and the Privacy demand for privacy with respect to their data, and there- Commissioner — badgering the other ministries to en- fore, Pop Data B.C. may not be suitable? sure compliance. [1535] Now, in terms of access to data that is desirable for Perhaps the ministry doesn't want to move quickly on research and other purposes, the member opposite has this. I don't mean to be combative here. I'm trying to as- pointed out that there is a facility that's been developed at certain whether the ministry is taking this quite serious- UBC that goes under the acronym Pop Data B.C., which ly, along with the other recommendations, and trying to is a vehicle that provides for limited access, with full pro- move ahead expeditiously. tection and privacy, to selected health care information for research purposes and requires the investigator or the Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm sorry if my prior answer was researcher to be properly vetted and to be engaged in a not quite as clear as I'd hoped, but conceptually this bona fi de research project. ministry, in administering the act, is required to be…. Th e Privacy Commissioner has wisely stated that that Whether one wants to call it a bottleneck or traffi c cop kind of eff ort is actually a very valuable tool and should or one with a foot on the brake pedal, our job is to set be expanded in the future to make the most of the data the outer parameters of what is appropriate data cus- available in this government to improve the lot in life of tody and control. Th en a ministry such as the Ministry British Columbians generally and to eff ectively mobilize of Health can have external relationships with organiza- that data with appropriate privacy protections. tions like Pop Data. Th is government will continue to explore those oppor- We are cognizant of our role as the regulator of that tunities and, of course, at the same time, do everything data transfer to make sure that the Ministry of Health we can to ensure that there is full compliance with the observes the parameters of the act, but the actual rela- privacy policies that are the responsibility of this min- tionship between the Ministry of Health and Pop Data istry. Of course, we have to look for a public environment B.C. is a bilateral arrangement between them. We would where there is an enthusiasm for these things. Certainly, hope that it is productive and helpful for researchers, but amongst the research community there is enthusiasm. we do not go into the business of approving or mandat- At the same time, we have to temper public expecta- ing which data sets are available under what terms. We tions so that we are not, perhaps, getting beyond the so- simply direct the Ministry of Health and regulate their cial licence that one has for developing programs like activities to make sure they are compliant with the act Pop Data. Th ey must be done with the confi dence of the and, thereby, make sure that private information does public rather than behind the public's back. not become accessible to Pop Data. Th e exact parameters of that relationship and what G. Heyman: I appreciate the minister's answer, but useful data and in what format and to what extent they I'm a little perplexed. Th e Privacy Commissioner has, on are actually helpful to researchers — sadly, I am not in the one hand, criticized the government for breaches of a position to answer that. Th ose data sets are managed privacy, given a number of recommendations with re- and transferred by the Ministry of Health, with us simply spect to shortcomings of the policy and training system, saying what they cannot do rather than what they can do. and suggested that the ministry proceed on that. I ap- preciate the minister's answer, and I hope that there are G. Heyman: I can feel the dead horses taking resi- continued eff orts to ensure that everybody knows what dence in the room, but let me give this one more try. the procedures are with respect to access to information Th e recommendation of the Privacy Commissioner and protecting privacy and is held accountable for fol- was to the minister. Does the minister pass the recom- Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1179
mendation on to the Ministry of Health with any com- What is the B.C. Innovation Council's role with regard mentary with respect to: "Th e commissioner has provided to the Premier's Technology Council? What is the inter- this advice. Th is might very well be a way to enable re- action, if any? Did the B.C. Innovation Council play any search while protecting the privacy interests that we've role at all in developing the B.C. jobs plan or the tech- been instructed to protect"? nology component of it? How was that role aff ected or guided or infl uenced by the 2011 review? Hon. A. Wilkinson: I apologize if I've been, perhaps, [1545] less than clear with my friend opposite, but this is an im- portant topic. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e B.C. Innovation Council pro- Th e essence of it is that this ministry does not mandate vides, within its funding envelope, the minimal funding any particular vehicle or mechanism for data availabil- for the secretariat of the Premier's Technology Council, ity for bona fi de research purposes. Th ere may be other which is comprised of volunteers. It has been around for vehicles besides Pop Data. Perhaps they apply to environ- about 12 years now and continues to provide ongoing mental issues or labour issues, for all I know. advice to government under the rubric of the Premier's [1540] Technology Council. Again, these are all volunteers Th e actual vehicle is not something we would have any representing various sectors around the province. role in designing or engaging. Given the overall title of Th e B.C. Innovation Council did not have any specif- this ministry and the lineage of my deputy minister, we ic role in providing input to the jobs plan but does have have a great interest in the bona fi de, legitimate use of de- a mandate in terms of the deliverables in that the B.C. personalized data for innovation purposes, whether out- Innovation Council is actively involved in what are side government, in universities or inside government. known as technology accelerators throughout the prov- Our statutory role is to act as the guardian of the pri- ince. I've had the privilege of visiting two of them. Th ey vacy of British Columbians so that there is no unexpected indeed provide a very supportive and nurturing environ- or undesirable misuse of information that could result in ment for young entrepreneurs who can then interact, any compromise of the privacy of the individuals whose conceivably hire and fi re each other and lead to prosper- aggregate data are being disclosed for research purposes. ity in the way that only they understand. Th e technology component of the jobs plan is an ac- G. Heyman: Th ank you, Minister. I have some ques- countability that comes to this ministry as part of my tions I'm simply going read and ask for a written response mandate letter. to them as soon as possible. Can I apologize? Th ese actually refer back. Th ey could G. Heyman: I believe that the work of both the be lumped in with the other questions on the consulta- Innovation Council and the work of the Technology tion on the B.C. Services Card. Council and the potential of the technology industry, One of the questions is: what is the role, if any, of the both the real presence of the technology industry in B.C. chief information offi cer in overseeing the implementa- and the potential of the technology industry, is of sig- tion of the B.C. Services Card? I assume there is a role. nifi cant interest to both of us and holds great promise for Can the minister please outline any other steps that the B.C.'s future. I hope there are some opportunities to ex- ministry or he, personally, has taken so far to fulfi l the change ideas at some point in the future, notwithstanding instructions of the Premier to ensure the successful im- the usual status of discussion in this building. plementation of the B.C. Services Card and any moneys Let me ask if the 2011 review that was written by 22C budgeted for this program that have been spent or used, Partners will be released publicly. Can the minister pro- or that will be in this coming period? I mentioned steps vide a list of recommendations from that review as well that have been taken, but I meant steps that have been as any progress to date being made on them? I'm quite or will be taken. happy to receive that in writing. Th at is the end of my questions on the card, and infor- If that's okay with you, I'll move on to the next ques- mation, security and privacy. tion. I'd like to now move on to the B.C. Innovation Council. As the minister knows, the B.C. Innovation Council is a Hon. A. Wilkinson: I must admit, Mr. Chair, that I Crown corporation that was subject to a review in 2011 have not come across this document, given that I came under the purview of the current member for Vancouver- on the scene some two years aft erwards. I will obviously Langara, then parliamentary secretary responsible, and take the member's query to heart and sort out what can conducted by a group called 22C Partners. Th e minister be disclosed to the member. will also be aware that staff turnover cost this organiza- tion nearly $1 million in severance and moving costs over G. Heyman: My final question on the Innovation a three-year period. Th e mandate was reviewed, along Council is: can the minister list any programs that are with that of the Premier's Technology Council. no longer being funded, following the mandate review 1180 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
that was conducted? Are what might now be considered G. Heyman: Unless my understanding is incorrect, the non-core responsibilities being funded through any other Premier's Technology Council is under the purview of ministries or agencies via transfer, or were they simply this ministry. If I am correct in that, then I would ask that eliminated? the ministry gather the information from where it's avail- Again, if this requires a response in writing, that's fi ne. able, in response to my question, and provide it in writing.
Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out that that answer is a Hon. A. Wilkinson: We will do our best to do that. I'm bit more convoluted than I had thought, so we will re- quite happy for that ongoing request to be addressed to spond in writing. my ministry so that we can provide a more substantive and satisfying answer to the member. G. Heyman: I have a couple of questions to do with the Premier's Technology Council now. In June 2012 G. Heyman: Th e minister mentioned that it was, in Louise Turner was named the president of the council, eff ect, an employment contract, which I assumed, with and her company received a 12-month direct-award con- Louise Turner and that the role of the president of the tract worth $198,000. Th at company is known as New council is diff erent than the role of various voluntary Oak Investments. Yet previous presidents of the council presidents or chairs and requires signifi cant responsibil- were not paid. ities in meetings. Th is direct-award contract ended in June 2013, and it My question is: what work was done by Louise Turner, appears in the public accounts that $158,000 plus a bit and how does the work diff er in nature, substantively, was paid in the last fi scal year. It doesn't appear that any- from the work that was done by previous presidents of one else has been appointed, and the council has not re- the council, who in fact were not paid? Finally, will the leased a report since 2010. contract with her company, New Oak Investments, for [1550] her services be extended or renewed? In 2011 the council was reviewed, along with the Hon. A. Wilkinson: Once again, I'll have to provide Innovation Council, and the previously mentioned re- you with a written response to that question, because we view conducted by 22C Partners was overseen by the simply don't have that information available. member for Vancouver-Langara, but there's been no public result of this review. As you've noted, the answer G. Heyman: Would it be appropriate to ask for a three- is somewhat convoluted and complicated, and I look for- minute recess? ward to seeing the response in writing. Can the minister tell me what the role of the Premier's Th e Chair: Yes. Technology Council is vis-à-vis activities of the Innovation Council? Did this council, the Technology Th e committee recessed from 3:55 p.m. to 4:02 p.m. Council, play any role in developing the B.C. jobs plan or the technology component of it? How is that role aff ected, [D. Plecas in the chair.] if at all, by the review that was done in 2011? G. Heyman: I notice that my remaining questions are Hon. A. Wilkinson: Now, in contrast to my prior sub- general budget questions. I would ask the minister if he stantive and satisfying answers, this is one where I fear can indicate, with respect to the mandate letter received that I will not satisfy the appetites of the members op- from the Premier, the steps taken to date or planned to posite. Th e Premier's Technology Council is run out of fulfi l each of the instructions given by the Premier in the the Premier's offi ce. Th e budget is provided through the mandate letter and what amount has been budgeted for B.C. Innovation Council. each of those points in the mandate letter. Th e role of the president is not the typical non-profi t Th is may be something to be done at a later date in president who comes in for an evening meeting now and writing, but I'm open to seeing the response. then. Th e president is actually the operative employee of the organization. Th ere has been a long tradition of very Hon. A. Wilkinson: As you will note, all eight of the high-quality individuals — such as Gerri Sinclair, Jim directions in the mandate letter are underway. We'll have Mutter, Cheryl Slusarchuk — who have performed that to get back to the member in writing about specifi c al- role in an exemplary fashion. Th e contract in question is locations to them in that we've come through, I suppose, eff ectively an employment contract for this role. fi ve weeks in this task, and that's a work in progress. As to the actual functioning of the Premier's Technology Council, as I say, I cannot provide a very satisfying an- G. Heyman: My next question…. I may be able to re- swer, because it is managed through the Premier's offi ce, member by rote the answer that could possibly be given rather than through my offi ce. with respect to the core review, because I've heard it a Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1181
couple of times already. Has the ministry made, planned Hon. A. Wilkinson: I must admit that the counting or considered, with respect to the upcoming core review, of humans in the minister's offi ce is proving to be an in- any cuts to discretionary spending or grants? exact science, in that I, on arrival, found a chief of staff , On the next question I think I've actually received the ministerial assistant and executive assistant, along with answer in response to previous questions, so I'll simply two secretarial personnel. Since my arrival one of those leave it at that. individuals is away, and the other has left government. [1610] Hon. A. Wilkinson: In response to the member's I do not know at this point what the allocated FTE query about any made, planned or considered cuts to count is to my offi ce, because I count the humans rather spending or grants, the answer at this stage is no. Th at, of than the FTEs. So I'm going to have to reply to you in course, has to be qualifi ed by the premise that we're still writing. I apologize. waiting for the terms of the core review to come out, so I wouldn't want to be held to that answer in case the terms G. Heyman: Th ank you to the minister. come as a surprise. At this stage, certainly, there are no Finally, on staffi ng…. No, I have two more on staffi ng. anticipated cuts in spending or grants that I'm aware of. Has the minister engaged or does the minister plan to engage any special advisers or consultants? If the answer G. Heyman: It may be that the answer to my next is yes, what would the purpose of those engagements be? question will be found in the recently released public ac- What would the assignments be to those special advis- counts, which I will sadly confess I have not yet had time ers and consultants, or what particular areas of expertise to review in detail. Notwithstanding that, if the minister would he be seeking? is able to answer the question into the record, that would be appreciated. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Within the parameters of the minister's offi ce there are no plans and there is no budget [1605] for retaining special advisers or consultants. If the ques- Did this ministry receive Treasury Board approval tion is more broadly addressed to the ministry, which has for access to the contingencies and new programs vote a budget in the range of $600 million and is involved in a in 2012-13? If so, what ministry programs did this ac- number of highly specialized fi elds, there will be the use cess fund? of consultants over any fi scal year. Th ey would be in areas such as systems integration, real estate development and Hon. A. Wilkinson: In response to that question, the sales — all the various other features that are part and only access to contingencies in this ministry in the prior parcel of this ministry. fi scal year — that is, 2012-13 — was the GCPE access that I think the answer is in two parts. A defi nite yes to: will was canvassed this morning. In the parlance of govern- the ministry be involved in retaining consultants? I don't ment, there was no access on the other two votes, which have the budget at my fi ngertips, but I'm sure it could be I gather is everything but GCPE. found in the right line item in the budget. Secondly, in the ministerial offi ce the answer is no. G. Heyman: My next couple of questions have to do with staffi ng, both direct and contracts. What is the cur- G. Heyman: I assume, to the minister, that if the in- rent number of staff working in this ministry — or FTEs, formation he does not currently have is located, it'll be which may be the easier way to express it? And is it up forwarded. You referred to some information that you or down from the 2012-13 budget year? didn't have at your fi ngertips. My apologies for addressing the minister directly. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e full-time-equivalent count — again, in typical government parlance — right now Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e point that I was making was is 1,634.01. You and I can discuss aft erwards how one that the elaborate budget documents that are put out and comes up with a 0.01 FTE. Th at is as of June 2013. In that I'm proud to say our government has put into the August 2013 it was 1,729.29, so the diff erence is 95.28. open government system, the fi rst in Canada, do con- tain the various standard operating budget line items, G. Heyman: I'm trying to fi gure out if that 0.28 is in the STOBs. Every STOB, of course, is allocated to certain arms and toes. functions. I believe there's one for consulting services. My next question is: how many FTEs are in the min- Th ey're STOBs 68 and 61, I believe I'm told. ister's offi ce? Is there any change from the pre-election In a fl ash my able staff may be able to tell you what the budget — or the 2012-2013 budget generally, which is numbers are under those STOBs, but I don't have them. what I'm referring to? Has there been any increase in staff Th ey are apparently available on the website in what used costs in the minister's offi ce since that budget that would to be called the skinny blue document but is now put be refl ected in this one? onto the web instead. 1182 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
G. Heyman: Th at would be specifi c to this ministry. timates. Given that the funding for this position fl ows Or would it be global? through this ministry, notwithstanding the fact that the minister doesn't have the answers at hand today, I believe Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th at is specifi c to this ministry. that the correct place to ask those questions is in fact here. Each ministry has its own STOBs for that purpose. I'm quite willing to accept a response that I'll receive the answer in writing in the future. But if the response G. Heyman: Who do the staff of board resourcing was that in fact it's the responsibility of another ministry, report to? Th ese are is the people responsible for all of at this late date in estimates I do not believe that will be the appointments to agencies, boards and commissions. acceptable. So I am expecting, in fact, to receive a writ- Is there any reporting relationship remaining between ten response at some point. board resourcing and the Premier's offi ce? Hon. A. Wilkinson: At this stage all I can promise my Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th e reporting relationship is for friend opposite is that we'll look into it and do what we the BRDO — the board resourcing and development of- can to answer his queries. fi ce — staff to report to the deputy minister of GCPE, the government communications and public engagement G. Heyman: At this point my colleague from branch of this ministry. So they do fall within our FTE Vancouver–Point Grey has a question. count and our budget. [1615] D. Eby: I was in the estimates for the Ministry of Th e reporting relationship, of course, of the board re- Advanced Education. I was advised that the technology sourcing offi ce is widespread because they seek to service aspect of this question was best directed to this ministry. the needs of, basically, all the ministries of government Th ere is a voucher program that has been established that have related boards and agencies that report up by the B.C. Innovation Council to assist businesses with through those ministries or at least have a relationship commercializing innovations that they come up with — with those ministries. inventions, technology, etc. My question for the minister, related to the voucher program, is: how many of these G. Heyman: I'd like to return for a moment to the vouchers were issued in the previous fi scal year? question I asked about Ms. Louise Turner. I want to clari- [1620] fy that my understanding is correct, that funding for the Premier's Technology Council fl ows through this min- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Th is is a program we're quite istry and through the B.C. Innovation Council. proud of in that it's proving to be quite productive. Th ere were 56 applications for funding to match the skills and Hon. A. Wilkinson: That is correct. The B.C. abilities of graduate students with commercial opportun- Innovation Council provides the small funding envelope ities, and 49 of those went to full evaluation. So 39 were for the working staff of the Premier's Technology Council, approved, and they were funded to the tune of $15,000 and the board members of that council are all volunteers. each in the prior fi scal year — that is 2012-13.
G. Heyman: May I confi rm with the minister, given D. Eby: Can the minister advise which companies that the ministry has the responsibility, that the detailed applied for these vouchers successfully and which insti- answer to the questions I asked about the diff erences in tutions essentially redeemed the vouchers or provided the nature of work being performed by Ms. Turner for students to work on these projects? I understand that pay, with previous chairs performing work without pay, the minister may not want to stand up and run these all will provided in writing at some future date? through or may not have all the names handy, so I cer- tainly would appreciate the minister providing that in Hon. A. Wilkinson: I believe, but I cannot recall, the writing at a later date, if he'd undertake to do that. earlier response to the member opposite was that the pay- ing arrangement is through this ministry and that we'd Hon. A. Wilkinson: Within any limitations we run make inquiries into the points raised by the member op- into in terms of commercial sensitivity or privacy issues, posite about the functions of the Premier's Technology we will do our best to provide that list to the member Council in recent years. opposite.
G. Heyman: I appreciate the minister's answer. I do D. Eby: Can the minister advise the costs of this pro- want to point out and leave this on the record that there gram to the provincial government and whether there is have been occasions in other estimates and in estimates any cost borne by the post-secondary institutions that in this session that a question should have properly been participate in this process? addressed to a diff erent ministry or the Premier's es- [1625] Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1183
[M. Bernier in the chair.] counting for programs that were moved — or something as obvious as what looks like an uptick of one staff per- Hon. A. Wilkinson: In that lengthy hiatus…. Please son in the minister's offi ce, which would likely account forgive me if I don't respond to the precise question, and for the $71,000 increase — can the minister identify any I'd be happy if you need to restate it. areas of the ministry budget where planned spending Th e funding arrangement is that each approved project that was moving through in the 2012-13 budget through with a graduate student is funded to the extent of $15,000. to the 2014-15 service plan has been reduced in the ser- Th ere is a BCIC component and a company component vice plan that accompanied this budget? that goes into that fund. Th e two components add up to And if in fact there are any reductions, how were those $15,000 per student, of which $10,000 fl ows through to reductions achieved — if in fact that's known at this the student and $5,000 is provided for the professor for point? Or is it just anticipated that they'll be achieved, the expenses associated with managing the student's par- by some process yet to be determined or programs yet ticipation in the program. to be identifi ed?
D. Eby: Is the minister able to provide an overall cost Hon. A. Wilkinson: For ease of reference, page 155 of of this program in the previous fi scal, including the staff the blue book contains the ministry summary. It shows to administer and renew the applications and so on? How $65.29 million for ministry operations this fi scal year, much are we paying to deliver this program? which is a reduction of $239,000 from last year on the same Vote 42 line item. Th at represents a reduction in Hon. A. Wilkinson: We don't have that number avail- ministry expenditures to assist the government in meet- able today, but we'd be happy to provide that in writing. ing its balanced-budget target for this year. Th e next line item there, Vote 43, shows a reduction G. Heyman: Can the minister inform me what min- of approximately $5 million, from $438 million to $433 istry programs are funded by gaming funds, if any, rath- million. Th at is explained by changes in facility manage- er than out of operating funds, and the amount of these ment project funding, partly because some of that work funds? And how would this compare in this fi scal to the has been accepted or is funded through capital programs previous fi scal? rather than through the traditional annual maintenance programs. Th ose are the signifi cant net changes from last Hon. A. Wilkinson: I was able to provide a couple year's blue book. of monosyllable answers earlier, and this will be a two- [1635] syllable answer. Th e answer is zero. I would be remiss in not pointing out that — a point that my friend raised earlier; actually, the member op- G. Heyman: To the minister: that's actually two let- posite, who I hope will be my lifelong friend — on page ters, not two syllables. I was an English major. I apologize. 158, the minister's offi ce appropriation did increase by Have there been any funds transferred from other $71,000, which I understand to be the funding for the ministries to this ministry, and if so, what programs are position in my offi ce which is currently vacant. It remains funded by these transfers? Have any program areas from to be seen whether it's a real increase or an illusory one. this ministry been moved to another ministry? [1630] G. Heyman: Th ank you to the minister for answering what was to be my next question. Hon. A. Wilkinson: Assuming I've understood that Can the minister tell me if there are any funds that question correctly, the transfers out were, as in the min- have been transferred for ministry programs from the istry title, the labour-related issues, which moved out federal government? If so, what are those programs? of this ministry to JTST — Jobs, Tourism and Skills Training. Th e items transferred in were the technology Hon. A. Wilkinson: Well, if this were a game of cha- and innovation budget and the associated FTEs, which rades, I think my very capable staff would have won the came to this ministry from Advanced Education. prize, because the nodding of heads from all involved indicates the answer is no. G. Heyman: I think there's probably a reason the Speaker generally just refers to the Minister of Jobs. G. Heyman: Will there be any increases in fees or new I want to check something here. It's not immediately fees imposed for any services that are under the aegis of easy to determine, because of some of the reorganization this ministry? If so, what are they? How much revenue and movement of functions from other ministries, but it might this generate? How might they compare to old fees looks like the overall budget for the 2013-14 year is fl at or absence of fees? as compared to the 2012-13 year. If I'm incorrect in that, having done faulty math in ac- Hon. A. Wilkinson: Once again my staff have prov- 1184 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
en very eff ective at giving away the answer by nodding missioner and respectful consideration of her input at their heads from side to side, in that the only fees that every turn…. Th e issue of fees is really not on the table, are charged routinely in this ministry are for freedom-of- in terms of freedom-of-information processes and chan- information disclosures. Th ere is no anticipated change ges in those fees. I hope that's a suffi cient answer for the in those fees. Th ey've been static for a number of years, member opposite. and we don't expect any change. No change in revenue is anticipated. G. Heyman: I apologize for fumbling through papers. I'm somewhat vexed by my inability to immediately put G. Heyman: Would the no change in fees include a my fi nger on the page that I want. determination that there will not be a positive response Th e minister asked if the answer was suffi cient or satis- to the request of the Information Commissioner that fying. Well, the answer is suffi cient, but it's not satisfy- the fee for information being sought or access to docu- ing, to the extent that the Information Commissioner ments be waived? has identifi ed a signifi cant inhibition. Th at, coupled with all of the other issues that I've previously mentioned…. Hon. A. Wilkinson: I am advised that our entire Problems with the changes due to the earlier core re- fee income last year from freedom of information was view and archiving of material, the problems of training $58,000 and that there is no anticipated change to that. or lack of training and the problems of suffi cient staff We are in ongoing consultation with the Information all add up and conspire to inhibit the kind of freedom and Privacy Commissioner about an appropriate regime of access to information that British Columbians want for freedom of information which allows the maximum in order to judge the actions of government and the ex- possible access for political parties within the House and penditures of government. To that extent, I regret that for bona fi de media inquiries. Th ere is always the issue the ministry's statement is that, in fact, fees are not on of managing the odd and unusual vexatious query, but the table. there is no anticipated plan to deal with that through a I believe that the recommendations of the Information fee arrangement. Commissioner should be taken…. I don't mean to say Sorry, in my prior answer about fee income, it has been you're not taking them seriously, but to the extent that pointed out to me that the various registries which are there's an immediate determination they're not on the organs of government do charge fees, such as land title table, I believe that they're being given what some would registry and the B.C. corporate registry. If the member consider to be short shrift . opposite cares to delve into that in detail, we would have I'll now move on to another question. to provide, probably, an entirely separate briefi ng on that Again, there's been some delineation of the number of or respond in writing. FTEs and partial FTEs, but can I ask, within that staffi ng model, how many positions are vacant currently? And G. Heyman: Excuse me. I'm trying to reidentify what impact has the hiring freeze had on this ministry a document that I previously filed away, thinking I generally, in terms of impacting ability to fulfi l its man- wouldn't need it again. I might just have to go from my date when a position becomes vacant? memory here. Th e minister has stated, in response to my question Hon. A. Wilkinson: Hopefully, this answer is as satis- about whether there has been a predetermination in that fying as most of my previous ones. Th e work in this min- recommendation that was reiterated today, I believe, by istry is suffi ciently complicated and ever-changing that the Information Commissioner with respect to the in- we don't actually maintain a vacancy count. We do it on hibition that the fee places on access to information and a much more functional basis, in that we have a salary a recommendation that it be waived, that there are on- budget for each function within the ministry. going discussions. When tasks come up, because of our highly fl exible [1640] workspace approach and an increasing on-line pres- My question was: given that the minister said there'd ence, sometimes these require an FTE to occupy the be no change in fees or no changes contemplated, does spot — perhaps indefi nitely, as in the case of a govern- that mean that there's been a predetermination or an ment agent in a rural community. Other times, if they're immediate response to this most recent statement by at the large data and services facility at 4000 Seymour the Information Commissioner or that the minister and Street, they will be fi lled by a much more fl exible work- ministry are open to continuing that discussion with the place arrangement. Information Commissioner and, in eff ect, considering [1645] seriously the recent recommendation? As I say, we don't actually maintain a vacancy count; we do it on the basis of demand. Th en if demand arises, Hon. A. Wilkinson: Perhaps to clarify the previous we do our best to fi ll those by making appropriate ap- answer, in terms of our ongoing dialogue with the com- plications for a waiver of that particular role within the Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1185
hiring freeze. record model is now passé, and these standing off ers be- come the norm for specifi c communications campaigns. G. Heyman: Could the minister be more explicit about what sort of situation — perhaps by giving one or two G. Heyman: Perhaps the minister could explain to me examples — might require the ministry to hire an FTE how the standing off er regime meshes with the desire for or issue a contract and seek a waiver of the hiring freeze public tender. as opposed to meeting the need in some other fashion? I'm a little perplexed because generally FTE levels are set, Hon. A. Wilkinson: I've now been able to clarify that or staffi ng budgets are set, with an understanding that the standing offer process provides a mechanism for people are needed to do certain functions. Otherwise, prequalifi cation of vendors. Th ey are then placed onto what would be the purpose of setting them? a list which they can be selected from for specifi c cam- paigns. Hon. A. Wilkinson: As I said earlier, this is a broad In this case, because it's a communications phenom- ministry. Th e more traditional role, which is amenable enon — and if it were one of the other phenomena in to a description of an individual as having a task…. A government — a standing off er would be an arrange- good example of that would be B.C. Mail — which is ob- ment whereby prequalifi ed providers were on a list and viously undergoing a metamorphosis, like every other could be selected on short notice to deliver the product. mail service in the developed world — and the freedom- of-information processing staff , who perform skilled, G. Heyman: Could the minister perhaps elaborate trained work on a regular basis, so they are very amen- with some information from staff about what the criteria able to FTE counts. that go into the prequalifi cation are? It's less true of individuals who are involved in sys- [1655] tems integration work, because they do much more fl ex- ible work — for instance, the strategic initiatives offi ce. Hon. A. Wilkinson: I've now been able to learn what Again, they'll be doing much more fl exible work, which goes into one of these standing-off er arrangements. It's may require attention to a task one week, but then that much like other vendors, including my own experience work ceases to be necessary the following week and then as a lawyer. reappears three months later. Th ose positions are not One must supply the skill set of the team or fi rm — amenable to describing the individual as present or miss- that is, resumés; the experience in the fi eld — in this ing. It's really a matter of whether the work to be done is case it would be a dossier or portfolio of prior communi- present or missing. cations materials; the rates to be charged or proposed rates; the local experience relevant to the tasks at hand — G. Heyman: I'm going to return to an area that I can- which, of course, includes a degree of market knowledge vassed earlier with one question that I overlooked. I and, I would expect, language acumen for certain mar- chose not to go back to it at the time, but I will now. Can kets that are not in English; and a creative component. the minister inform me of the status of the current re- Th is process, assuming the applicant is successful, puts quest for proposal or tendering for an advertising agency them onto an approved agency list for two years. Th ere's of record? an option to renew for a further two years, and then they are taken off the list and have to reapply. Hon. A. Wilkinson: I should be able to answer that question within about 60 or 90 seconds if you'll bear G. Heyman: Th at sounds like a pretty reasonable set of with me. criteria. But to drill a little more deeply into it, what role [1650] does the question of the proposed rates play vis-à-vis the I'm glad to read out from this note exactly what it says. other criteria? In other words, how is the public assured, Th e agency of record contracts for advertising services short of a formal tendering process, that value for money expired on July 31, 2010. Th e agency-of-record model — the best value for the least money — is being delivered? was replaced with a standing off er arrangement. Th e One could surmise, based on the previous answer, that comprehensive procurement process was developed by there's a list of criteria. Rates is one of them. But I have procurement services in the public aff airs bureau, which no way, and neither does the public have any way, of as- is now renamed government communications and pub- sessing what weight rates play — where they play into lic engagement. the prequalifi cation stage, and whether rates trump other A request for a standing off er was posted on B.C. Bid values or other values trump rates. Perhaps the minister on May 17, 2010, and to provide an update, the request could elaborate. for standing off er was posted on B.C. Bid on June 6, 2013, and closed on July 4, 2013. Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out, I am told, that for- I think that's a long way of saying that the agency-of- tuitously, these standing-off er openings are available on 1186 British Columbia Debates Thursday, July 25, 2013
the website — historical ones as well as anything current. vary from one communications contract to another, but Th e weightings for these various attributes are stated on it generally is in the 30 percent range. the web, and rates are 30 percent of the weighting of the decision in terms of selecting agencies or individuals or G. Heyman: Perhaps I haven't quite closed off this line fi rms to be put onto the approved vendor list. of inquiry. If the weighting of rates for a particular pro- [1700] ject or communications service were to change, would that be noted on the web in some way? I recognize that G. Heyman: Perhaps the minister could tell me, with I could go there and do this research, but I don't happen the assistance of staff , how this weighting of rates at 30 to be wired at the moment. percent compares to a process with which the public may [1705] be more familiar — which is an open-tendering process? Hon. A. Wilkinson: I've now learned that in the com- Hon. A. Wilkinson: I suppose I can call upon my prior munications fi eld in recent years 30 percent has been the experience in the sometimes ruthless private sector about norm. Th ere is no perceived change from that in the fu- making applications into RFPs and similar processes in ture. Th at is how the industry norm has developed. No that it's always a balance between the skills and experi- change from that is foreseen. ence that the fi rm brings to the task and the rates charged. Obviously, less experienced organizations tend to G. Heyman: I'll ask two questions together here in the charge less, or they're not going to be successful. Th ose interests of time, as we're nearing adjournment, I think. that are more experienced and bring more acumen to If there was a change in the weighting of rates, would the task will do their best to charge more, but given the that be immediately apparent on the website? Is there weighting of their rates, they may price themselves out fl uctuation and variability in the other rating categories of the market and fail in the competition. — for instance, facility in a particular language for ad- Th at's, I gather, exactly how this process works. It's vertising in a community other than English-speaking? widely used in procurement — not just in the advertis- ing standing off ers. Hon. A. Wilkinson: I may be the source of any confu- sion here, so I apologize in advance in case this answer is G. Heyman: For greater clarity, perhaps the minister not entirely satisfying. could say whether the weighting of rates at 30 percent is I gather that the procurement process, regardless of standard in more common procurement or tendering the product or vendor in question, now requires that the processes, if the weighting of rates is fl exible in that pro- weighting be disclosed in the web-based application that cess or if the standing off er process is a mirror of that is designed for procurement and that it's not subject to process. change once it has been publicized. I now dredge up in my mind some Supreme Court of Hon. A. Wilkinson: I think, in consultation with staff , Canada litigation about this. One cannot change it except the only accurate answer is that it varies depending on at one's great peril. the type of service in question. In this particular situation we're talking about communications contracts, but it does G. Heyman: One fi nal question. In that case, seeing vary within the fi eld. Th e only sensible way to answer this as they are unchangeable, could the minister provide the would be to peruse the web and see how it comes up in weighting…? I understand I could look this up on the procurements — whether it's for gravel, engineering, law web, but for the record, could the minister provide the fi rms, laboratory services or communications. weighting for the other factors?
G. Heyman: To close out this line of inquiry, would Hon. A. Wilkinson: In the interest of time and the in- I be correct in assuming that the percentage weighting terest of complete disclosure, I've suggested to the staff , of 30 percent given to rates has been fi xed for some ex- and they've agreed, that the simplest way to do this is to tended period of time and is intended to be fi xed into publish or print the appropriate web pages and provide the future? Or may it vary up and down, depending on them to the member opposite so that there will be no the nature of the communications proposal or contract? confusion or frustrating web surfi ng involved.
Hon. A. Wilkinson: Doing our best to answer ques- G. Heyman: Th ank you to the minister. tions on a forthright basis right now, the answer is that I have a couple of questions about audits. Have any — and I was corrected by one of the staff — if it's gravel, audits been done in any area of the ministry or ministry it's all about rates. It varies, depending on the complexity programs or agencies in the last year? If the answer is yes, of the task, but in communications contracting work 30 what was the reason for the audit or audits? percent is generally the tariff , generally the norm. It may [1710] Thursday, July 25, 2013 British Columbia Debates 1187
Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out that there are two aud- and accounting behaviour, which requires ongoing re- its. Th e fi rst is the Auditor General's eff orts across govern- view under the lean rubric. Any further details will have ment. Th ey produce an annual audit plan for review of to be in writing, I'm afraid. the ministry's operations. Th at is a normal-course, annu- There is also an ongoing, routine deal review con- al event. Th e second one — particular to this ministry or ducted by the strategic projects offi ce to deal with data at least housed within this ministry — is an information management outsourcing and those areas. Aft er each security controls audit that is done in concordance with transaction is completed, there is a thorough review to the wishes of the Auditor General. Th at has now become see if we could have done better or learnt more about it an annual event and is a normal-course matter. for the next time around. Th e reason for them is that they are part of our on- Th ere is an ongoing review of the identity manage- going due diligence, rather than being provoked by any ment system that is being conducted by the Offi ce of particular episode or event. the Information and Privacy Commissioner — which is, again, a normal-course eff ort in their watchdog role. G. Heyman: If I understand correctly, the information Part of my mandate letter requires a review of innovation security controls audit happens annually. If that is cor- spending conducted by the government. rect, are the recommendations made public? Does the If anything else comes to mind, we'll inform you in ministry routinely fulfi l all the recommendations that writing. are made? If not, which recommendations might not be fulfi lled and for what reasons? G. Heyman: Chair, I have been signalled by you through the Deputy Clerk that my time is running out. I Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out, perhaps to my sur- will ask one question quickly that I think the minister will prise as a civilian, that these information security con- be able to give a short, if not one- or two-syllable, answer trols audits are conducted across government through to, and that's to go back to the issue of the approved list. the aegis of this ministry and that they are in fact made Am I correct in assuming that approved lists of advertis- public. Perhaps that's what surprises me, given that it's ing agencies that have replaced the agency of record are supposed to be a security controls audit. also posted and that the names of the agencies are posted? Nonetheless, the Auditor General's offi ce then comes Before I wrap up this question, because I may get cut up with what is essentially a compliance plan and works off , let me close by thanking you and your staff for your its way through the ministry. My staff have off ered to pro- answers to the questions. I look forward to receiving the vide this information, which I gather is publicly available. written responses which I requested — which of course Th ey cannot think of anything that was not satisfi ed in I did through the Chair, not directly — and I've appreci- recent memory. ated the interchange.
G. Heyman: I'd like to ask the minister whether the Hon. A. Wilkinson: It turns out that the advertis- ministry is planning or contemplating any audits in the ing and communications agencies are considered to be coming year or in the coming three years covered by the a matter of public record and are posted to the website. service plan that are not either of the two audits to which I should close by thanking you for the thoughtful, or- he's referred — or perhaps not an audit, but any review, derly, substantive and cordial way in which we've con- other than the core review, of programs or effi ciency of ducted these estimates. program delivery or anything else that might be of inter- est to the public in terms of wise use of public resources Vote 42: ministry operations, $65,290,000 — approved. or best focus of this ministry, particularly in terms of any eff orts to assist the development of the technology indus- Vote 43: Shared Services B.C., $433,001,000 — ap- try or other modes, other than the two councils we've proved. canvassed previously, to assist and promote the technol- ogy industry and innovation. Vote 44: government communications and public en- I don't restrict my question about reviews or audits to gagement, $36,147,000 — approved. simply that area. [1715] Hon. A. Wilkinson: I move that the committee re- port resolutions and completion of the estimates of Hon. A. Wilkinson: I'm now becoming conversant in the Ministry of Technology, Innovation and Citizens' all of this lingo that you see in airports that doesn't really Services and ask leave to sit again. mean anything until you stand in estimates and face the fearsome member opposite. Motion approved. Th e lean process is an ongoing continuous improve- ment exercise under the Six Sigma standard of corporate Th e committee rose at 5:20 p.m.
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