r
20th CENTURY MINNESOTA RADICALISM
Interview: Jim Thombli~son, 1972 Interviewer: Alan Bruce
AB: To start, Jim could we just start getting some basic
information first, now, what's your middle initial.
JT: C.
AB: James C. Thomblinson, t-h-o-m-b ...
JT: L-i-s-o-n. AB: S-o-n. And you're living right now at 812Minnesota 117th St. NE ...
JT: Avenue. in
AB: Avenue. In Blaine, and you say you've lived here about oh about 15 years. Society JT: Well I retired 15 years ago, I cameProject here 14 years ago.
AB: And how old are you now,Radicalism Jim? JT: I'm 80 on the 11th of March.History AB: Well, as I understand it, wellHistorical as I know, we've known one Century another for a good many Oralyears. You came originally from Canada. Now what part of Canada?
JT: Well I was born in eastern Canada in Renfoo County and I Minnesota went upTwentieth to northern Ontario around New and Hariberi and Cobalt and I came from there to Winnipeg. I couldn't tell you
the years, but I came from Winnipeg down here in 1923.
AB: Were your, were your folks immigrants to Canada?
JT: No, my grandparents came from Ireland.
AB: They came from Ireland.
JT: On windjammers. II .. 1 AS: On windjammers.
JT: Yeah.
AS: Is that right.
JT: Not my parents, my grandparents.
AS: Yes. Well, when you were raised in eastern Renfoo County
and when you started your work experience, where did you go?
JT: Well I guess I worked on some farms there in Renfoo County.
AS: Is that in Ontario? JT: Yes, and then I went to, don't put that thingMinnesota on, I went up to Newliskad and Haleyberg and Cobalt and Iin worked in the lumber woods there and I worked in the mines for a few weeks and they
had an explosion and I quit. Then I went out west on a harvest Society Project AS: You were about how old atRadicalism that time? JT: About 17. And I worked in the lumber woods for three winters up there, the French RiverHistory Historicaland Grand Dieu, then I came down to Winnipeg andCentury I worked at odd jobs there, I worked Oral carpenter work and I delivered for Eatons store and I'd drove a
bakery wagon for a while. AS: Do you remember aboutMinnesota what year that was? JT: ThatTwentieth was, well 1909 or 1910 I went up and worked in the
lumber woods up there and then I drove a bakery wagon, the
delivery at Eatons, I was there three years and drove this
bakery wagon and we would get in $25 a week and three percent
commission on, three percent commission on wholesale and six
percent on, no three percent on retail and six percent on
2 .. wholesale and then one morning they informed us that they had cut the wage sto $15 a week and cut the price of bread so I quit and
I came down here.
AB: Well now that was about the beginning of World War I wasn't it?
JT: Oh no.
AB: No?
JT: World War I was over in ... AB: '14 in started. Minnesota JT: Yeah, Canada went in on the 14th of August,in 1914, and everything closed down and they started the men into enlistment, that was a sort of conscription we had. Society AB: Well this reduction in your bakeryProject driving job then, reduction in pay, was that partRadicalism of this whole deal, forcing people into the army? JT: No, that wouldn't be then,History thatHistorical was after, well I guess it was too. Century Oral AB: Did you have a union when you were in Winnipeg?
JT: Well I was in the IWW when I was working the lumber woods and then I was in the MinnesotaOBU in Winnipeg. AB: What'sTwentieth that?
JT: One Big Union. That took in the, that was 1919, after
_____ , they, at first the metal trades went out on strike and they couldn't get a settlement and one after another the different unions went out on a sympathetic strike and the employers just closed down and the internationals came in and
3 they took the charters off the wall in an awful lot of the unions and we were bringing in the unorganized and bringing them into the union, into the labor temple so fast they couldn't sign them up, they had no unions for them. Well you bring in brothers that were bottling coca-cola and all that, there was no place to put them unless they put them in with the bartenders ...
AB: And this was in Winnipeg.
JT: Yes . Well we , I was in the Teamsters then, I was in
and of course we lost out. the Teamsters, done before the Minnesota And then I worked for the county there forin a few months, I hauled coal one winter and then I got the job in the bakery driving bread wagon and I worked there til I came down here. Society AB: What year was it that you came downProject to Minnesota? JT: 1923. Radicalism AB: Why did you come to Minnesota, J i m. JT: Because I was blacklistedHistory in HistoricalWinnipeg. AB: And for what reasonCentury were you blacklisted. Oral JT: Because I was a former union man.
AB: I see. JT: Not only me, everybody,Minnesota practically everybody else . The printers,Twentieth a lot of them came to Minneapolis and St. Paul and
Chicago and they got work there.
AB: But now that was after the war, after the World War I .
JT: Yes .
AB: Did you serve in World War I?
JT: Just 10 days .
4 AS: Oh.
JT: In the army.
AS: Well you were blacklisted in Winnipeg as far as jobs were concerned ...
JT: Yes.
AS: And you lost your job with the bakery?
JT: No, I didn't lose my job with the bakery, I just happened to get in their one time, it was, they wanted a driver right that morning and I got in. Minnesota AS: Well then did you quit of your own volition?in JT: Yes when they ...
AS: Just quit ... Society JT: When they cut the wages. Project AS: Oh I see, when they cutRadicalism the wages from 25 to 15 a week. JT: Yeah. AS: And why did you come to HistoryMinnesota?Historical JT: I have no idea,Century I was well, I had an idea that I'd hobo from Oral here to Chicago but I got down and I met an old fellow, a
Rumanian Jew by the name of Bloomingberg and he had, he was deported from WinnipegMinnesota and he had American citizenship papers but he hadTwentieth a business up in Winnipeg and he was deported time of the soldier's riots, so I happened to meet him on Hennepin Avenue and he had a furniture no he had shop, a barber shop and a restaurant and a pool room.
AS: In Minneapolis?
5 JT: On Hennepin Avenue in Minneapolis. And I met him, I went into his restaurant and he asked me what I was doing, I said nothing. I worked 10 days for William Bross Boiler Factory and I quit cause it didn't look like a job for the winter and I already had ordered my lunch and my supper. He bawled me out for quitting, he said work was pretty scarce here. So he went on the phone, he called up four or five numbers and then he sent me over to eastside car barns, there was a man over there hiring. And I went over there, and went in, fellow was there,Minnesota Mr. Rumsey and he was hiring a fellow by the name of Joe Bidland.in Bidland had worked there previous to that, and quit, he came back looking for a job again. Ah, Mr. Rumsey he said if we hire, I want one man Society on bridge at night, he said if I hire Projectyou this time will you stay, he said yes. So I turnedRadicalism around to go out, and he asked me were you looking for work? And I said yes but I thought you only wanted one man. Oh he said IHistory wantedHistorical an oiler at night over in the car barns and heCentury talked to me and told me they were paying 40 Oral cents an hour and if you didn't lose any time you had one night every two weeks, if you didn't lose any time during the pay period you got paid forMinnesota that night off. And he talked to me and then heTwentieth told me to go to work. Well I didn't know where Nicollet station was, he punched the ticket and I went over there and I went to work that night. I was going to stay a couple of weeks but I never got money enough to get away.
AS: What year was that now, Jim?
JT: That was 1933.
6 AB: And that's when you started with the, what was it called?
JT: Twin City Rapid Transit Company.
AB: And that was when they were running the electric street cars.
JT: Yes.
AB: And they had the barns, the large southside barns at
Nicollet and 31st.
JT: There's one at Nicollet, yes, and there's one down on Lake Street, one on 1st Avenue, 1st Avenue NortheastMinnesota Minneapolis and one up at 26th and Washington. in AB: And you stayed there then how many years?
JT: It must have been about 34 years. Society AB: And you retired when? Project JT: The 11th of March, 15 yearsRadicalism ago, what would that be, 15 from 72 •.. AB: It'd be 62 wouldn't it, Historyno, it'dHistorical be . . . JT: '57. Century Oral AB: '57. Well when you started was there any question asked you about union or anything like that, when you started with the Twin City Rapid Transit? Minnesota
JT: No.Twentieth
AB: And was there a union there at the time?
JT: It was the Mitten-Stotsbury plan.
AB: Mitten-Stotsbury plan.
JT: Yeah.
AB: Was that some kind of an employee representation plan?
7 JT: Yes, you haven't got that on now, are you?
AS: Yes, yes.
JT: Well, that's started in Philadelphia in 1909 and 1910, the
Amalgamated Association had a contractor there and had arbitration but the company didn't live up to the arbitration award in neither 1909 or 1910.
AS: This was in Philadelphia.
JT: Yeah. Then they brought in a man by the, the company brought in a man by the name of Mitten to seeMinnesota what he could do, and he organized a company union and he boughtin a man, brought a man by the name of Stottsbury in to help in and that was the beginning of company unions at least in the transit association. Society And they had employee representation, Projectthey met on the company's property but very very seldom,Radicalism but they had three represenatatives from each car barn who met with the company about three or four times a yearHistory toHistorical bring in their grievances and the answer was alwaysCentury it can't be done at this time. Oral AS: Well now are you speaking of the Philadelphia experience or ...
JT: Yes. Minnesota
AS: ...Twentieth or the experience in Minneapolis.
JT: Philadelphia. And then other streetcar companies allover the united States took up the same system and they had, they had all kinds of company stool pigeons as well as some of the big what was called, oh what was it called, detective associations
8 which were nothing more or less than union or organized labor busts-up.
AS: Well how did you learn that they had that in Minneapolis?
JT: Well what, it was commonly known ...
AS: That some of the people, some of the employees were stool pigeons.
JT: Yes.
AS: When did they put that Mitten-Stottsbury plan into effect in Minneapolis then? Minnesota JT: I couldn't say, it was before my time.in AS: Oh, was that still in effect at the time that you went to work? Society JT: Yes. Project AS: And it seems to me you Radicalismsaid once that they had, this plan had some kind of a representation systemp patterned on the united States Congress with a senateHistory and Historicala house of representatives ... JT: Yes, they had Centurysuch a thing, those, all those Oral representatives, they elected a small group to do the negotiating. AS: Well did you, didMinnesota you have elections in Nicollet Barns for your representativeTwentieth son this committee?
JT: Not in the mechanical department, those were just in the operating departments ...
AS: Oh, just in the operating department.
JT: Yes.
AS: So the mechanical department didn't have any representation.
9 JT: They didn't have any representation until the NRA came in and right away then they wanted to organize company union and I was up in Winnipeg at the time, took a vacation, went up there. When I came back and came to work on Sunday morning they told me that they were organized and they had elected me representative. Well I didn't know anything at all about it.
AS: This is the mechanical department people at the Nicollet barn. JT: At the eastside barns. Minnesota AS: At the eastside barns. in JT: Yeah, that was the eastside barn.
AS: So you were the elected delegate. Society JT: I was the elected delegate to representProject the car barns in Minneapolis, all the car barnsRadicalism in Minneapolis. AS: Was, was a specific union involved? JT: No, nothing, only the companyHistoryHistorical union. AS: Oh, I see. Century Oral JT: Then a few fellows met over in St. Paul or Minneapolis, I couldn't say which, in John Vinnie's house and they wired the
International that theyMinnesota wanted a representative, an organizer, to Twentieth come in here.
AS: Now that was what union?
JT: The 1005 of the Amalgamated Association of Street Electric
Railway and Motor Coach Employees of America. Quite a long name, but the international convention was held in Toronto at that time and Mat Murray from Seattle was on his way to Toronto when the
10 Amalgamated got this telegram and they wired Matt Murray to stop off in Minneapolis and see what he could do about organizing. He dropped off here and he fell, held his first meeting in St. Paul.
There were only two from the operating department showed up.
Then he came over to Minneapolis and he called a few open meetings and he got quite a turnout but there were 10 of us signed up for the charter, $2.50 a piece.
AS: Are you one of those charter members? JT: Yes. And after a few little meetings likeMinnesota that they got organized but we were very fortunate, we gotin a man by the name of Fay Rice for president and I don't think there was another man on the property that had the determination to go ahead and build a Society union that Fay Rice had. Project AS: How do you spell his name?Radicalism JT: R-i-c-e. AS: And he was the first presidentHistoryHistorical of your local 10 ... JT: 1005. Century Oral AS: 1005.
JT: I don't think there ever was a man on the property had the determination that heMinnesota had, he fought it from start to finish and he put Twentietha lot of his own money into it to get it going and he was a man that knew enough to take advice from older men in the labor movement, such men as Bob Cramer, Roy Weir, Bill Senate, Pat
Corcoran and oh Cunningham, what was his name, his first name.
AS: I've forgotten now too, he was ...
JT: Ed Cunningham.
11 AS: Ed, Ed Cunningham. John Boscoe.
JT: John Boscoe is. He was clever enough that he took a lot of
information, got a lot of information from them, a lot of good
advice and he knew enough that when others, some others came to
give him advice, some of them people that were working on the
property, he was smart enough that he knew that they were stool
pigeons.
AS: Well was there much opposition from the company? JT: Oh, yes. Minnesota AS: What kind of pressures were put on youin for example. JT: Well I was supposed to be in a company union and we were all
blanketed in the company union and they didn't want any outside Society union as they called it. Fred AndersonProject told us, he was at the head of the employee's mutualRadicalism benefit association and he told us the truth, he told us that the wages that we were getting, we History couldn't afford to pay union dues.Historical
AS: And that was Centurytrue. Oral JT: That was very true .
AS: What wages were you making. about that time, do you recall?
JT: Oh at that time Minnesotawe were making, the women were making 30 Twentieth cents an hour.
AS: That was in the office .
JT: In the car barns, cleaning the cars.
AS: Oh, I see .
JT: And men who had been there during the war were getting 50-
1 / 2 cents but the rest were nearly all 40 cents an hour and if
12 you wanted an increase in wages in the shops, you had to write a
letter to the master mechanic asking for an increase which you
seldom got.
AS: And what other kinds of pressures were put on you to keep you out of the Amalgamated?
JT: Well, my wife was in the hospital at that time and it was
always some fellows that I worked with telling me that my wife was in the Northwestern Hospital, I was going to be in bad shape if I got laid off for union activity, and theMinnesota company had their company union that I should stay with, youin met on the company's time, you met on the company's property and you didn't pay any union dues, and they had their, always starting, you broke one Society little company union, the next week thereProject was another one started with under another name. TheRadicalism last one was the Employees, Shopman's Mutual Benefit Association or something like that. AS: Well then after the NRA wasHistory passed,Historical you had some support for organization and thereCentury was a great deal of desire on the part of Oral the employees to organize.
JT: Oh yes, we had.
AS: And so you did getMinnesota started and Fred Rice was the ... Twentieth JT: Fay Rice.
AS: Fay Rice ...
JT: Yeah.
AS: ... was your first chairman ...
JT: Yes.
13 AS: ... of the local. So you did get a charter then and you had an outside AFofL union ...
JT: Yes. AS: And what happened then when you first tried to bargain with the company? JT: Well the first time we tried to bargain with the company,
Nat Murray, the international officer, over registered ... sent a registered letter to T. Julian McGill who was president of the company. And he took a few of us to 11th street,Minnesota the company's office and Mr. Murray shook hands with Mr. inMcGill and they talked a few minutes and Mr. Murray said 'you have the best and most perfect espionage system of anything I've run into in my life.' Society Mr. McGill said 'yes, Mr. Murray and itProject doesn't cost us very much, it's almost all voluntary.'Radicalism AS: And you were there at that time? History JT: Oh, yes, I was there. Historical AS: Well did he recognizeCentury the union? Oral JT: Oh no, no, no, not until the Labor Board took a vote on it.
AS: Fine, and about when was that that you applied for a Labor
Board election? Minnesota Twentieth JT: That would be, that would be in the winter of 1934 I believe. No, sometime in '33.
AS: Did you hire a lawyer then to represent you or did Mr.
Murray ...
14 JT: No, Mr. Murray had patently given up all hope and gone back
to seattle and he left, threw the whole thing into the hands of
Faye O'Rice, and Fay Rice . ..
AB: And is he the one that filed a petition for an election?
JT: I think so.
AB: But ultimately the Labor Board then conducted an election.
JT: Yes.
AB: In each of the barns? JT: No they were all held off the company property.Minnesota AB: Oh I see. in JT: Fire halls and different places.
AB: And that was about 1933. Society JT: Yes, it would be 1933 Project AB: Do you recall, do you recallRadicalism Jim what the results were approximately? JT: No, I do not know. HistoryHistorical AB: But a majorityCentury did vote ... Oral JT: We had a majority, yes.
AB: ... for the union. So then you started bargaining.
JT: Yes. Minnesota
AB: AndTwentieth with what results in the first contract?
JT: Oh the first contract we, I think we wound up with about 10 cents an hour or something like that.
AB: Were you on the bargaining committee?
JT: Yes.
AB: And how long did it take to get a contract?
15 JT: Well the company still had a little company union on and I don't remember what dates we got the contract, but the company gave their company employees representation, the same deal that we got.
AS: Oh. Now your contract then included both the operating and the mechanical.
JT: Yes.
AS: And ... JT: We were supposed to take in everybody, butMinnesota the office workers didn't come in very good, but finallyin the office workers of number 12 I guess it is here, went up to 11th and Hennepin and tried to organize them up there and they said no, they wanted to Society be with the rest of the employees and Projectthey came into 1005. AS: Well that was about the Radicalismtime of the famous Teamsters strike. JT: Yes. AS: And were any of the TeamsterHistory Historicalorganizers involved in the street car situation?Century Oral JT: No, in no way. The only time we ever met with them was once on Chicago Avenue, at the Teamster headquarters down on Chicago Avenue. Minnesota
AS: Yeah,Twentieth they had a big garage there, didn't they.
JT: Yes. And the company brought over one streetcar full of non-union streetcar members from Snelling Garage and one from
Duluth Garage and the company, some of the company officials were int here too and Fay Rice got up on the platform and he called
16 his executive board up and we all sat on that platform up there in the hall and we all had something to say.
AS: What was the question, whether or not you would join the
Teamsters.
JT: No, well I guess it was, perhaps, but we wanted to get as many men at, streetcar men at there as possible to see what organized labor was doing, what ...
END TAPE ONE SIDE ONE TAPE ONE SIDE TWO Minnesota JT: ... in what is now the Labor Temple, andin Floyd Olson came over there and spoke and I remember he stood up there and company officials were, came over there too to that meeting and they sat Society around at the door of Hall #3 and FloydProject Olson stood up and he put out his arms and then he broughtRadicalism them in this way, if any of you men are discharged for union activity, come to me and I ' ll go directly with you to the state'sHistory AttorneyHistorical General, and the company officials allCentury walked out then. Oral AS: We~e the company officials taking notes?
JT: Yes, they were ... AS: ... marking names Minnesotaof people who showed up. JT: AndTwentieth when we used to meet at First Avenue North, 614 1st Av. N .. .
AS: Yes, yeah.
JT: There was one fellow ...
AS: That was the old Central Labor Union Hall.
17 JT: Well there were two, I suppose I better not mention their names. One woman and one man stood across the street, across 1st
Avenue North, taking down the names of the streetcar employees that they saw going in. A lot of them they didn't know their names. AS: This was all before you finally got your first contract.
JT: Yes. AS: Yeah. Well, did you get a lot of support from the Central Body? Minnesota JT: Oh yes, we got a lot of support from inthe Central Body. AS: You don't, was, who was the head of this big federation at that time, was it George Hall? Society JT: George Hall, I believe. Project AS: Yeah. And that would be,Radicalism was that Ed Cunningham head of the CLU? JT: Yes, and Roy Weir was theHistory organizerHistorical for them at that time? AS: Yes, later congressman.Century Oral JT: Yes. I remember, I went up to see Roy one time when we were starting to organize and I told him what my business was, I was, well where I was. I Minnesotaremember what he said to me, gave me great Twentieth encouragement. He said 'young man, I don't know you, you might be 100% and you might be a stool pigeon for all I know.' He said, 'there is no company in Minneapolis that has as many stool pigeons and relied on stool pigeons as much as the streetcar company.'
AS: Is that right.
18 JT: So, I thought well there's a man that knows something and he
can give us all kinds of help and he did. I remember Bill Senate
and Pat Corcoran were at 471, that office was up at 614 1st
Avenue North.
AS: That's the milk drivers.
JT: Yeah. And Bill Senate give Fay Rice a key and a desk. He
said there's your desk, you can use that, you can have anything
you want in here, the only thing we ask you is to keep track of your long distance telephone calls. Minnesota AS: Well now did the Dunns have any effectin on the Amalgamated? JT: No.
AS: And they didn't make any attempt to influence the Society Amalgamated. Project JT: Well I think they did, theyRadicalism told us that they had stopped paying International dues at that time and they thought that we could do better as an independentHistory union,Historical but Rice wouldn't stand for anything like that.Century Oral AS: Well, what did you have any problems at the time of the '34
Teamsters strike?
JT: No. Minnesota Twentieth AS: No problems within the union, or no problems as far as
operating on the streets was concerned.
JT: No, no, we had no problems that way.
AS: Well then Fay, how long was Fay Q'Rice the president of the
local?
19 JT: I don't remember how long but the company had enough of what they called loyal employees to put pressure on a lot of the members that were very weak to get a different, to vote Rice out.
AB: Well did you have, did you have a union shop contract?
JT: Not at that time.
AB: Did you have any union security at all? Was it just a matter of persuasion?
JT: Yes. AB: And finally Rice was voted out, eh? Minnesota JT: Yes, by the very weak people, membersin who still thought, who were still afraid of the company. They thought a shake hand ... handshake from the company officials was about all the Society security they needed. Project AB: The open door, one big familyRadicalism policy. JT: Yes, the company had pool rooms at each car barns and they let the boys play pool up thereHistory forHistorical four cents a game, that was when they were waitingCentury around in there to be called. And they Oral had a Christmas tree for everybody in the operating department and they gave the men those cigars that was worth about four cents and they gave theMinnesota kids an apple and a little bag of hard Twentieth candy.
AB: Well who was elected chairman at that time, when Fay Rice lost out? Do you remember?
JT: C. J. Coles.
AB: Coles. I don't remember him ...
JT: He was from St. Paul.
20 AS: Oh. Well your organization didn't have any real problem negotiating, did you, or did you ever have a strike?
JT: The first strike they had the company laid off 22 men out of seniority. AS: This was during the life of one of your contracts.
JT: Yeah, our first contract. And we had no trouble getting them back, I guess it was the Labor Board put them back at that time. And then once they laid off a number of very old men that were pretty near ready for retirement and theMinnesota young fellows went out on the streets and they stopped all thein streetcars and told them what they had done and the motormen headed straight for the car barns, we were off about a half a day at that time, the Society company put them back. Project AS: The company put the oldRadicalism timers back. JT: The idea was you know before there was a union was all under the old Mitten-StottsburyHistoryHistorical plan, they were supposed to give a man $50 a monthCentury pension at the age of 70. Well since Oral there was only about one or two in the mechanical department that ever drew that pension because the company, company doctor found something wrong with them,Minnesota that they were incapable of handling the streetcars,Twentieth it was dangerous to have men with a bad heart or something like that on the streetcars and they laid them off at the age of 68 or 69.
AS: They did.
JT: There was only one I know in the mechanical department that ever got that pension.
21 AD: Well, when did you have a strike, didn't you ever have a general strike over a contract negotiation?
JT: Not in my time.
AD: No.
JT: They had one or two since, one anyway, which could have been avoided, they had a very very poor business agent at that time.
AD: Well you mean they did have some stoppages ...
JT: Oh yes. AS: ... that you say could have been avoidedMinnesota if it had been handled a little differently. in JT: Yes.
AS: Well, Jim, were there any dramatic moments as far as the Society union is concerned, anything election Projectcampaigns or anything like that in the streetcar local Radicalismthat you remember? JT: Oh there was always some political activity going on. AS: Internal political activity.History Historical JTJT: Yes. Century Oral AS: But, what about the, what about the transform, transformation over from the streetcars to the buses, what did that, what effect didMinnesota that have on the operators and on the mechanicalTwentieth department?
JT: It had very little effect on them. John Sidell was business agent at that time and Fred Osana was president of the company and they worked it out pretty good so that everybody in the car ba1f'~ when the jobs would be open over in the garages and the job would be posted in the car barns and the men could pick those
22 jobs according to seniority and I don't think there was anybody really left out. Cause they had an opportunity to pick a job and get it. AD: Well didn't it take skill to become a mechanic ...
JT: Oh yes, I took 14 cents an hour cut when I went from the streetcars to the buses.
AD: What do you mean?
JT: I went from the streetcar shops over to the bus shops as a mechanical, as a mechanics helper. Minnesota AS: Oh I see. in JT: I took 14 cents an hour cut.
AS: What was your job in the streetcar shop. Society JT: Well I did everything, we had to,Project learn every part of it, because if there was a controllerRadicalism man off there had to be somebody else to take his job. If there was a brakeman off, there had to be somebody who HistorycouldHistorical take his job. You had to be so that you could flapCentury around from one job to the other. Oral AS: But then by carefully discussing the whole matter, Sidell and Osana worked out a scheme that worked out pretty well.
JT: Yes, it certainlyMinnesota did. And say that both Sidell and Osana. Twentieth AS: Even though in your own case you had to take a 14 cent an hour cut.
JT: Oh yes.
AS: What wages were you making per hour say 15 years ago when you quit, or when you retired?
JT: Oh I couldn't tell you that.
23 AS: In general though the wages ran, rose from this 50 cents an
hour you say ...
JT: 40 cents an hour.
AS: From 40 cents an hour gradually rose over the years to in
the '50s you were making what, a couple dollars an hour?
JT: Yes. We had, I don't know how arbitrations we had, we had
quite a few arbitrations. We had the labor of the middle
west, you know all about that don't you? It's from Chicago. AS: Yes, that was Oliver, Oliver, Eli Oliver.Minnesota JT: Eli Oliver and oh David Zimling ... in AS: Yes, yes ...
JT: Did you know Oliver? Society At~: I did know Oliver, yes, in Cincinnati,Project he was doing research for the Brotherhood of RailwayRadicalism Clerks before he set up this Labor Bureau. JT: I remember one time he wasHistory in Historicalhere having an arbitration for us and he had workedCentury for the streetcar company at Snelling when Oral he was going to the University and he roomed right across from
the streetcar barns and he used to get a little pull-out, you
know, a couple of hoursMinnesota work in the morning, the rush hours, and Twentieth then a couple of hours in the evening again and he worked there
and finally there was a strike in 1922 and what was it J. A. A. ~~1~ was governor of Minnesota ... AS: Yeah.
JT: ... at that time so Oliver got up and he said I remember when
I was going to the University I had a room across there, across
24 the street and I got up one morning, I came over, I was going to get an hour's work from the streetcar company and he said I seen no men at their, with rifles and they weren't looking for rabbits and he said well I tell men, streetcar men, oh golly he laid it on.
AS: The governor had called out the National Guard?
JT: Yes, in 1922. AS: Is that right. That was before you came down here. JT: Yeah. But he told us this and the way thatMinnesota man could got up there and he laid it on just like the ______in , there was rifles they weren't out there to shoot rabbits. AS: Well Jim did you ever see any violence in the labor movement Society down here in the Amalgamated? Project JT: No. Radicalism AS: Did you see some violence up in Canada when you were working History as a young man? Historical JT: Oh yes, it wasCentury for seven weeks pounding the pavement Oral and they brought, the city of Minneapolis laid off every policeman and they brought in a thousand thugs from the United states ... Minnesota Twentieth AS: In Winnipeg. JT: Brought them up there across the border, put them to work, the policemen were getting about $2 at that time, they were laid off and they, then they brought in the thugs got $6 a day, and a lot of them were glad to get out of the United states, they were wanted here and they didn't come back when the strike was
25 broke. A lot of them stayed there and they were arrested afterwards for petty larceny and theivery and everything and as
soon as they were arrested well, they were deported back to the united States.
AS: Well Jim, it's hard to say sometimes just why you get into certain associations, I suppose that your long activity in the
Amalgamated really goes back to the impressions that you got even back during those IWW days. JT: Yes, I carried rigging for the IWW when,Minnesota before I was 21 years old. in AS: What do you mean carried rigging?
JT: Well you know the IWW didn't sign contracts and they worked Society more on railroad construction, lumber woods,Project mining camps and ... AS: Harvest fields. Radicalism JT: Harvest fields. Well I went up to Birch River when I was 20 years old and I had a red cardHistory-thatHistorical I had got in a harvest field. I went up there andCentury a fellow name of Charlie Miller came in from Oral the IWW, came into the camp Saturday night, or Saturday sometime anyway and he went in and had supper and had breakfast and came out Sunday morning andMinnesota he got up in the sleep camp where we were Twentieth and he said, told us he was from the IWW and he was in here to organize the workers and he gave quite a, or quite a talk, he wanted to know how many were in there that the red cards. Well there were only of about six of us from the harvest and there was one big fellow by the name of Fred, Ed Fernell, he was from Vase
Bay New Brunswick, he was a coal miner. And then there were
26 about .half, about half farmers in the camp at that time, spoke
all different languages and he brought us ____ that had the red
cards and he wanted to leave somebody there for to collect dues,
sign them up and collect dues. I was the smallest guy in the
camp I think and I didn't know enough to keep my mouth shut, and
he wanted a secretary to handle that. Nobody wanted it, but this
big fellow, Ed Fernell, old coal miner, he was about six foot
three and two axe handles across the shoulders and he had quite long light colored hair, he said 'shortie, you'reMinnesota it.' And he stood up behind me, he said you'll collectin the dues and stamp up the cards and I'll be right behind you. And none of us, that
fellow I don't know whether he was Polish or Russian or Ukrainian Society or what he was, he was a baldheaded fellow,Project he talked about two or three different languages Radicalismand he got up and he gave a wonderful talk, I guess because he got a hand from all those farmers, so he said he'd be withHistory meHistorical too. Well I took the job and we got them all signedCentury up in our camp, there was one Teamster Oral that wouldn't sign up, his name was Ed Clark, no Jack, Ed Clark yeah. He WOUldn't sign up, but one morning he went out to harness his horses andMinnesota the harness was all taken apart, every Twentieth strap and buckle, everything was taken apart. It was taken apart, it took him half a day to put it together. But Christmas morning, oh it was cold, we were getting a dollar a day then and it was cold on Christmas morning and the foreman kicked the door open and he shouted all aboard. Ed Fernell told him it was
Christmas, we were not going to work. And he swore at us that we
27 didn't know which Christ was crucified or froze to death. But there were some of these foreigners, they were going to go to work. Christmas come January they said.
AS: Oh, the Ukrainian or the Russian Christians.
JT: Yeah. Well this little baldheaded Russian fellow, he got up and he told them in his own language that they stay in this
Christmas and in January when Little Christmas we'll all stay in, and we did too. Well I came down in the spring, I came down to the IWW office in town and I used to send theMinnesota money in every month. in AS: To Winnipeg.
JT: Yeah, well the next ______, I was at Grandview, but I don't Society know, it was harder to sign them up then,Project I didn't have Ed Fernell and the Polish lawyer.Radicalism But the foreman, well you know after he found we weren't going to work, he came in and played History poker with us and he was pretty good.Historical There was only once I saw any trouble there, Centurythat was when I was at Grandview, they were, Oral there was one foreman there in a little camp that was set off oh a few miles from the regular camp where they had got some timber on the islands and theMinnesota lakes there. Twentieth AS: What lake was that there?
JT: Oh it was, I don't know, many lakes that were nameless, and they, timber limit belonged to the company. Well there was an old fellow put in there as foreman and he fired two fellows and he cut their wages, gave them time sets[?] to go down to the company's office and there was no trouble. After he went out to
28 the bush, they went out, these two fellows went out and they got him by the whiskers and brought him in and made him come across with the right wages.
AS: Well you were an officer of your own local, weren't you, here in Minneapolis?
JT: I was on the executive board.
AS: On the executive board, for a good many years.
JT: Yes, and I then and then when I went to Snelling to work in a bus garage I was on the auxilIary boardMinnesota there until I retired. in
AS: Well then your experience was a pretty good one as far as the support from the labor movement and ... Society JT: Oh yes, it was wonderful. Projectthey were in milk wagon drivers, Roscoe and Sinco,Radicalism John Sinco, do you remember him? AS: No I don't. History JT: And I.G. Scott and ... Historical AS: Yeah ___ Century Oral JT: All those fellows.
AS: Who was John Sinco
JT: I don't know whetherMinnesota he was an alderman or not. Twentieth AS: His name is familiar.
JT: Yes, he lived at 26th and Emerson, he was at the old Farmer
Labor Party up there.
AS: Were you fairly active politically too?
JT: As much as I could be. McGoy Dilran do you remember him?
AS: Oh yes.
29 JT: He always delivered, distributed Farmer Labor stuff up
there. He was one He was in local 26 and 78 I think when
he went in the army, he used to write an article for the Labor
Review when he was . ..
AS: Oh did he?
JT: ... in France and north Africa. My daughter had the
distinction of being the first woman to have, first girl to have
a union label on her wedding invitations. AS: On her wedding invitations. Minnesota JT: So Roy Carson said, anyway. in AS: Did you wife work too part of the time?
JT: Well, oh she worked a few times in baking sales or something Society like that. Project AS: Well was she from a unionRadicalism family or ... JT: She belonged to the Brotherhood of Electrical Workers in History Winnipeg before we were married. SheHistorical was a telephone operator. AS: Oh, I see. Century Oral JT: And when they got organized there was no place to put them, so they put them in the Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. She was in the Electrical MinnesotaWorkers about 1915 and '16. Twentieth AS: So you were married when you came down to Minneapolis.
JT: Oh yes, I had two children. And I had, when we lived in an old roominghouse at 13th and Harmon and there were bedbugs in there and everything and my wife came down there, she had two trunks and two suitcases and she saw the bedbugs, 'well we've got to get out of here.' And she'd go out looking for a room and
30 well in the decent part of the place, town, the rent was too high
and they didn't want children and if she went into the scummy
part, slums, the, she didn't want to be there alone with the
kids, so we bought a lot out on Fremont North, between 46th and
47th and put up a shack 14 x 20. That's now is it?
AS: No, it's
JT: Well, we lived in there for two years and bought another lot
for $300, we sold that for $1500 and then afterwards I bought two lots and a small field house for $550 and I soldMinnesota the lots for 1660 and took that house apart and used thein building there. AS: Well and it was you say 15 years ago that you moved out here
and you built this house all yourself, you and your wife. Society JT: And my grandson, my grandson nailedProject the sheetrock on, I cut it and put it there with a crossRadicalism on it you know to hold it and he had a platform there that he walked on, he put a few nails in to History hold it and by the time we had thatHistorical nailed down, another sheet ... AS: You've seen theCentury city moving out your way too haven't you. Oral JT: Oh yes, why I'm not down two feet lower here, you see the
water came down from all sides here . . . [tape clicks]
AS: Now Jim you say thatMinnesota Al Ross .. . Twentieth JT: Al Ross.
AS: ... is the present business agent.
JT: Yeah.
AS: And that he would have a lot more information as ...
JT: Oh yes, he's got the records.
AS: He'd have the records and the documentary information.
31 • JT: Yeah. AS: Well I appreciate this and I'm going to see that perhaps the
Historical Society might be interested in it you know. JT: Well give them, give Fay Rice a pretty good write-up there because he was really the man that put this on its feet, it never would have, the company had stool pigeons enough and two of the big strike breaking agencies as well and they would have AS: Does Rice, did Rice have any family living here? JT: I don't, I think they had an adopted boy,Minnesota he lives out at, oh at Minnetonka now, Fay Q'Rice. in END INTERVIEW
Society Project Radicalism
HistoryHistorical Century Oral
Minnesota Twentieth
32