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LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND TRANSPORT COMMITTEE Tuesday 2 December 2003 (Afternoon) Session 2 £5.00 Parliamentary copyright. Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body 2003. Applications for reproduction should be made in writing to the Licensing Division, Her Majesty’s Stationery Office, St Clements House, 2-16 Colegate, Norwich NR3 1BQ Fax 01603 723000, which is administering the copyright on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body. Produced and published in Scotland on behalf of the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body by The Stationery Office Ltd. Her Majesty’s Stationery Office is independent of and separate from the company now trading as The Stationery Office Ltd, which is responsible for printing and publishing Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body publications. CONTENTS Tuesday 2 December 2003 Col. LOCAL GOVERNANCE (SCOTLAND) BILL: STAGE 1 ..................................................................................... 273 LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND TRANSPORT COMMITTEE 10th Meeting 2003, Session 2 CONVENER *Bristow Muldoon (Livingston) (Lab) DEPU TY CONVENER *Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP) COMMI TTEE MEMBERS *Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab) *Mr Bruce McFee (West of Scotland) (SNP) *Michael McMahon (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab) *Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab) *David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con) *Tommy Sheridan (Glasgow ) (SSP) *Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD) COMMI TTEE SUBSTITU TES Bill Butler (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab) Colin Fox (Lothians) (SSP) Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP) Mr Brian Monteith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con) John Farquhar Munro (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD) *attended THE FOLLOWING GAVE EVIDENCE: Alasdair Bovaird (Argyll and Bute Council) Professor John Curtice (University of Strathclyde) Leslie Evans (Scottish Executive Finance and Central Services Department) Councillor Alex Macdonald (Convention of Scottish Local Authorities) Professor Bill Miller (University of Glasgow ) Sarah Morrell (Scottish Executive Finance and Central Services Department) Councillor John Morrison (East Dunbartonshire Council) Gillian Russell (Scottish Ex ecutive Legal and Parliamentary Services) Councillor Len Scoullar (Argyll and Bute Council) Nigel Stew art (Argyll and Bute Council) Paolo Vestri (Convention of Scottish Local Authorities) Councillor Pat Watters (Convention of Scottish Local Authorities) CLERK TO THE COMMITTE E Eugene Windsor SENIOR ASSISTANT CLERK Alastair Macfie ASSISTANT CLERK Euan Donald LOC ATION Committee Room 1 273 2 DECEMBER 2003 274 Scottish Parliament Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab): Will you confirm that members are entitled to make political comments outside the committee? Local Government and Transport The Convener: Look— Committee Paul Martin: It is important, convener. Tuesday 2 December 2003 The Convener: We should desist from having a debate around the issue at this stage. I do not (Afternoon) think that it is helpful to start our evidence taking in this manner. [THE CONVENER opened the meeting at 14:06] I believe that Leslie Evans intends to make some opening remarks. Local Governance (Scotland) Bill: Leslie Evans (Scottish Executive Finance and Central Services Department): I will make Stage 1 four or five short points about the bill. The Convener (Bristow Muldoon): I call to We know that the bill’s introduction of the single order this meeting of the Transport and the transferable vote system is prompting particular Environment Committee. I am sorry—I mean the interest. Quite rightly, people want to be able to Local Government and Transport Committee; I compare and contrast STV as it might operate was getting a bit historical there. here in Scotland with how it operates elsewhere in the world. It is important to remember that we are Today’s meeting is our first evidence-taking starting from a particular position, as an session on the Local Governance (Scotland) Bill. I established democracy that is moving from a long- welcome Leslie Evans, Sarah Morrell and Gillian established system to a different system, which Russell, who will set out the Scottish Executive’s will always be a challenge. It is difficult to make thinking behind the bill. They will take questions in direct comparisons between aspects of the first- due course. Before I invite the Executive officials past-the-post process and the STV process. It is a to give their opening evidence, I declare an little bit like comparing oranges and apples—they interest in relation to the bill. My wife is a local are both fruits, but they have very different authority councillor in West Lothian. characteristics. That is especially true when one Mr Andrew Welsh (Angus) (SNP): My wife has considers the voting process for STV. been an Angus councillor since 1980. There has been quite a lot of comment about the level of detail in the bill. Some people feel that Mr Bruce McFee (West of Scotland) (SNP): Should we just put up our hands if we have not there is too much detail; others have commented that there is too little. On that basis, one could say been employed in local government? that we have perhaps got the balance about right. David Mundell (South of Scotland) (Con): I do We know that people have strong feelings on the not wish to make a declaration. However, it is subject, and we have sought to strike a balance. important, given the controversy that surrounds The bill seeks to ensure that the key principles are the bill, that the committee makes it clear at the spelled out in primary legislation, but the bill’s start that our evidence-taking exercise will be implementation and its flexibility will be ensured objective, in accordance with the principles of the through the use of secondary legislation. Parliament. When other MSPs appear in the media and say that if the Parliament does not A lot of consultation has taken place on the principles behind the bill and, more recently, on agree to the passing of the bill, the Scottish the bill itself, and we are happy to be here to Executive will be brought down, and when— contribute to the debate. Indeed, the draft bill was The Convener: If we are to have an objective amended as a result of the consultation process evidence-taking session, it might help to get to the and the useful away day that was held earlier in evidence and to take it objectively, rather than the year. Other things are going on around, and in getting into a political debate before we even start. support of, the bill. Three independent working groups—on the implementation of STV, David Mundell: I am reassured that you are councillors’ remuneration and widening access to committing to an objective process; I was sure that council membership—have begun their work. I you would do that. know that the committee will take evidence from The Convener: Absolutely. the chairs of those groups later. Let us hear the Executive’s opening statement. We know that there is a robust debate around the introduction of the new electoral system, and I am sure that that will continue during the 275 2 DECEMBER 2003 276 parliamentary process. We are happy to answer Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab): I am not members’ factual questions. If we cannot answer sure whether I will keep to the first part of the bill, any of them today, we promise to come back to as I have a general question about time scales. the committee with evidence as soon as possible. When do you envisage the reports by the three working groups being produced? Most important, I apologise for a small technical error in the on boundary reviews, when do you expect the explanatory notes; I reassure the committee that it Local Government Boundary Commission for does not affect the content of the bill, nor does it Scotland’s review? affect the notes’ explanation of the bill’s provisions. Paragraph 15 on page 4 of the explanatory notes gives a worked example, or 14:15 illustration. In that example, we have rounded up Leslie Evans: The three working groups have rather than rounded down the figures. We been set up and have been asked to report fully to apologise for that error, but I reassure members ministers by September next year. However, all that it does not affect the contents of the bill, and three groups are already actively considering the that the explanatory notes are accurate. We bill and have been encouraged to do so in order circulated revised pages to the committee and to that, if they wish to raise any issues as part of their the Scottish Parliament information centre today. work and deliberations that have a read-across to The Convener: Thank you for thos e the bill, they can raise them now rather than leave introductory remarks. Can you outline any ways in them until the bill’s parliamentary time and process which the bill was changed from its original draft have passed. The STV working group, for form in the process of, and following, the example, is considering issues relating to consultation? boundaries, the boundary review and guidance on Leslie Evans: Most changes have been fairly boundaries that might be given to the Local technical and have explained or made clearer the Government Boundary Commission for Scotland, bill’s technical provisions. Sarah Morrell will give a which is now live in the bill, if you like. Although couple of specific examples. the working group is not due to report until September, it has the opportunity to make Sarah Morrell (Scottish Executive Finance comments to ministers if it wishes to do so. and Central Services Department): Key changes Ministers must then decide whether to take the were made to clarify the electoral reform group’s comments on board during the bill’s provisions in part 1, as Leslie Evans said. In parliamentary process. particular, we have attempted to clarify the distinction between votes and ballot papers. That Dr Jackson: And the boundary review? point arose both at the committee’s away day in Leslie Evans: The latest time by which the August and in the responses to the consultation.

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