Vol. 188 Thursday, No. 24 13 March 2008

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Thursday, 13 March 2008.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1965 Order of Business …………………………………1965 Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children: Motion ……………1989 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages ……………1990 Request to Move Adjournment of the Seanad under Standing Order 30 ……………2010 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages (resumed) ……………………2010 Motion for Earlier Signature……………………………2025 Adjournment Matters: Schools Building Projects ……………………………2025 Health Services ………………………………2030 Home Births …………………………………2033 1965 1966

SEANAD E´ IREANN of the Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children; No. 2, Finance Bill ———— 2008 — Committee and Remaining Stages; and No. 3 early signature motion on the Finance Bill De´ardaoin, 13 Ma´rta 2008. 2008. It is proposed that No. 1 be taken without Thursday, 13 March 2008. debate at the conclusion of the Order of Business; No. 2 to be taken at the conclusion of the Order ———— of Business; and No. 3 to be taken without debate at the conclusion of No. 2. Chuaigh an i gceannas ar 10:30 a.m. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: We had discussions on the violence on our streets here in recent ———— weeks, particularly the horrific case in Drimnagh where two young Polish men lost their lives. The Paidir. situation has reached a new low today when we hear of gangs grooming children as young as ten Prayer. years of age to hide weapons and carry drugs. It reinforces the need for a debate here and for ———— serious co-ordinated Government action to tackle this problem. Business of Seanad. An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senator : Hear, hear. Senator that, on the motion of the Adjournment of the House today, he pro- Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Departments poses to raise the following matter: of Education and Science, Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform need to The need for the Minister for Education and work together on this issue. I am concerned there Science to publish a complete list of all school is not a sufficient level of co-operation among the projects in the building programme together Departments to deal with it and that there is not with indicative times for completion. a format in place to ensure we get the best out I have also received notice from Senator Alan of the services, by the providers of those services Kelly of the following matter: working together, to reclaim communities and public spaces. The need for the Minister for Health and On the continuum of crime, a man interviewed Children to outline if the Government is fully on “Prime Time”, to be broadcast this evening, committed to providing funding for and describes himself as an ordinary criminal, what- operating the CT scanner that is idle in Nenagh ever that means. I saw a garda being interviewed General Hospital for almost a year and to who said there is no such thing. This man has had provide an indicative date for the commence- to make a settlement with the CAB and has had ment of its use. a chequered criminal history. I have also received notice from Senator De´irdre We need to examine what role we in the de Bu´ rca of the following matter: Seanad can play. We need a Cabinet subcommit- The need for the Minister for Health and tee on this issue. We have one on social inclusion Children to clarify if she is aware of the current but we need one on enhancing communities and threat to the future of domiciliary birth services for it to involve co-operation among the Depart- and if she will outline her vision in the future ments, given that the Departments of Com- development of these services. munity, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Education and Science, Health and Children and Justice, I have also received notice from Senator Maria Equality and Law Reform are involved. There is Corrigan of the following matter: a perception that nobody is co-ordinating the The need for the Minister for Health and services and showing leadership for communities. Children to provide a progress report on the This problem is being experienced in all com- implementation of the mental health strategy munities and not only in those in one postal code. A Vision of Change. We need leadership on this issue at a national level and at a local level. Only last night I I regard the matters raised by Senators Doherty, attended a meeting at which people said they ´ Kelly and de Burca as suitable for discussion on could not use their local park. Other communities the Adjournment and they will be taken at the throughout the country have had similar experi- conclusion of business. Senator Corrigan may ences. The latest revelation is that a garda give notice on another day of the matter she superintendent said a boy—a15year old — was wishes to raise. told his head would be blown off if he did not do what he was told. It is disturbing that under the Order of Business. leadership of the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Senator : The Order of Business Ahern, only 24 out of 170 people involved in is No. 1, motion to amend the orders of reference gangland killings have been brought to justice. 1967 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1968

[Senator Frances Fitzgerald.] given the run-around by the Department, as are This is a serious matter. We ought to find a mech- Members on all sides of the House. The priority anism to address it in this House by the input list must provide a clear indication of where of a number of Ministers in a cross-departmental schools stand and allow them to see when their response. This is important. position changes. Moreover, reasons must be The suggestion by the Minister of State at the given when one school is gazumped by another. Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Tom Kitt, I do not want the Minister to come to the during an interview on radio this morning that House only to deliver a long, confusing speech penalty points should be doubled for this bank that leaves us less informed than we were before. holiday weekend is bizarre. It may well be a good This issue must be dealt with at a higher level. I suggestion but the key issue that should be do not issue an idle threat in signalling my inten- addressed is one concerning the Government tion to follow through on this. I will write to the appointed advisory group in regard the drink- Comptroller and Auditor General and the Com- driving blood alcohol level. It seems there is dis- mittee of Public Accounts if I do not receive a agreement in Fianna Fa´il about this but the advis- response on this. There must be a quality audit of ory group has recommended to the Road Safety procedures in the buildings section of the Depart- Authority and to the Government that action ment of Education and Science. The current should be taken. Perhaps the Leader might situation is simply not good enough. inform the House as to the current position on Some seven or eight years ago, when the Com- this issue. mon Agricultural Policy, CAP, was being refor- med, I met various farming groups, including a Senator Joe O’Toole: In recent months, 13 group of farmers from who were Members have, on different occasions, raised considering the possibility of building wind tur- issues to do with the schools building programme bines as a type of add-on value to their farming and related matters. I note that Senator Doherty activities. They had already selected suitable will raise this matter on the Adjournment today. locations for the construction of these turbines. I Some of those who have spoken on this issue was amazed to discover this morning that a group were Government Members, including Senators of ten of those farmers are, almost a decade later Cannon and O´ Domhnaill. Members on this side and with the full approval of their local com- of the House have described similar problems in munity, still seeking approval to build a medium- schools throughout the State. The responses we scale wind site. This makes no sense. Moreover, receive to these queries are exactly the same in it is not good enough that they are being offered all cases, being merely a restatement of what the only 5 cent per unit of electricity generated. I call school authorities already know. The entire pro- for a debate on this issue to discover the reasons cess is a model of procrastination. It seems a for the delay in this case. structure has been established to prevent us obtaining information on where schools stand on Senator : In the coming St. the priority list. That is not good enough. Patrick’s Day and Easter period, Dublin Airport This issue should be dealt with by the Commit- can expect its highest level of traffic so far this tee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and year. More than 300,000 passengers are expected Auditor General. I call for a value for money to pass through the airport in this period. This is audit not of the money being spent but of the good news for the airport and a welcome boost process that schools must go through in dealing to its profits. However, I was concerned to learn with the Department when they seek an exten- earlier this week that the Commission for sion, additional classroom or new school. What Aviation Regulation has sanctioned a 50% is going on would not be tolerated in any other increase in the usage cost of check-in desks at the structure in the public or private sector. My office airport. Ryanair has already said this will lead to has kept a record of our dealings with the Depart- additional charges for passengers. We are told in ment on these matters. On several occasions, we this morning’s newspapers that the chief execu- rang the school buildings section of the Depart- tive officer of Aer Lingus, Mr. Dermot Mannion, ment only to be told we must address our inquiry intends to fight the increased charge which, he to the Minister’s office. When we do so, however, contends, means that Aer Lingus effectively will we are told we should be speaking to the build- be paying twice for the same service. ings section. When we tell the official in the Mini- Will the Leader ask the Minister for Transport ster’s office that the buildings office has directed to contact the Commissioner for Aviation Regu- us there, our call is redirected to the person in the lation, Mr. Cathal Guiomard, to explain his buildings section to whom we spoke ten minutes actions? Why has a 50% increase in the cost of earlier. This is the repeated pattern of our the usage of check-in desks been sanctioned? We attempts to obtain information. read every day in the newspapers of the expec- School authorities are informed of their entitle- tation that tax revenues will fall. It is vital, there- ments and put on a list, but the list changes with- fore, that we protect and enhance our tourist out any information being conveyed to the industry. Price increases such as this could price schools in question. Attempts to obtain infor- Ireland out of the market. mation represent an appalling waste of time and Before Christmas, I called for a review of quar- effort. Ordinary people in communities are being rying legislation. I note this week that Meath 1969 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1970

County Council has successfully served an injunc- way to govern. Bank holiday weekends are tion on a quarry at Bellewstown which is pur- characterised by road accidents and fatalities. ported to be operating illegally. Illegal quarrying Unfortunately, we can be sure we will read in the operations are going on throughout the State. newspapers next week of deaths on the roads this Will the Leader invite the Minister to the House weekend. I remind the Leader of the three prin- for a debate with a view to reviewing the legis- ciples of engineering, education and enforcement. lation on quarrying? The Government has not taken sufficient action on the latter. Senator : This is brain injury aware- I agree with the remarks of Senators O’Toole ness week. Yesterday, Oireachtas Members had and Boyle on the schools building programme. the advantage of a briefing from Brı´, the There is no transparency in the delivery of this Acquired Brain Injury Advocacy Association, programme. This is frustrating for us as public which highlighted that this condition, whether representatives but one can only imagine the frus- brought on by trauma or following a stroke, is tration of a school principal in dealing with the very much the poor relation in terms of both the Department of Education and Science. health service and additional supports. It would be useful to have a debate on the preponderance Senator : I support Senator of acquired brain injury and how those affected Fitzgerald’s call for a full debate on the break- are treated. down of law and order and how alcohol abuse is I support Senator O’Toole’s call for a debate damaging the fabric of society. I ask the Leader on the schools building programme, particularly to consider a different format for this debate in regard to its cost effectiveness. The lack of given that this is a cross-departmental issue. I information affects everybody in public life and propose a whole-day debate, bringing in the in the communities in question. Decisions are Ministers for Education and Science, Justice, made on a piecemeal basis. Announcements, if Equality and Law Reform and Social and they are made, refer only to the next step in the Family Affairs. programme, which is often a nine-step prog- We should all consult with residents associ- ramme, and never provide a full timetable for the ations in our local communities and any other completion of any school programme. Temporary organisation that may be able to help us devise a measures are in place in too many schools throughout the State. Prefabricated classrooms way of working together on this issue. There must are no longer purchased but are leased at a cost be a bottoms up approach; we cannot do it from of \25,000 per year. I am aware of two schools in the top down simply by talking about it in this Cork that have been obliged to avail of these Chamber. We must work together to improve the leasing arrangements for ten years, involving a quality of life for citizens. The way of life we took cost to the State of more than \500,000 which for granted as we grew up seems to have faded could have been used to build a new school in the from the horizon. I would welcome a debate on interim. It is in our interests to ensure there is a that whole issue. I ask the Leader to provide for more open process and that the cost implications as lengthy a debate as is needed. If it takes two of the current system are more rigorously applied. days, that will be fine. Representatives of all the If the Minister is prepared to accede to our relevant Departments should be invited to the request for a debate, it would be a valuable use House to discuss this matter at length. of our time. It is right that the Lisbon reform treaty is being raised in this House every day. We are entering Senator Jerry Buttimer: I support Senator into a broader debate on how this reform will Fitzgerald’s call for a debate on the means by take place. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister which the Oireachtas can take action to enhance for Foreign Affairs to come to the House to dis- community life. The Minister for Community, cuss matters like foreign investment policy and Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs has not come to the neutrality. The Schengen Agreement on common House since the Seanad convened last summer. travel facilities, which was raised by Senator The Government has lost its authority on the Quinn during yesterday’s debate on the Passports matter of quality of life for citizens. Murder is Bill 2007, also needs to be examined. We were commonplace and has begun to be accepted as told yesterday that the agreement does not arise simply a part of everyday life. The Government under the Passports Bill. Is it within the remit of came into power almost 11 years ago promising the Department of Foreign Affairs or the Depart- zero tolerance but that principle has been aban- ment of Justice, Equality and Law Reform? It doned. In particular, there has been no enhance- needs to be discussed in the context of a debate ment of the role of the Garda. on the security of international borders and the Who is in charge of transport policy in this need to stop human trafficking. Does our State? The Minister of State at the Department Schengen policy need to be reviewed and tight- of the Taoiseach, Deputy Tom Kitt, has proposed ened? I would love a discussion on this matter. a doubling of penalty points on bank holiday Perhaps the Leader will consider organising a weekends. This proposal has been transferred to debate. Perhaps we can raise it with the Minister the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, for Foreign Affairs when we are discussing the who is in Australia, for consideration. That is no Lisbon treaty. 1971 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1972

Senator : I would like the Senators: Hear, hear. Leader to arrange a debate on the availability of adolescent psychiatric beds. I am concerned Senator David Norris: I support what Senator about the escalation in the suicide rate, partic- Harris has said. While I may return to the issue ularly among young men. The lack of availability at some future stage, I do not propose to discuss of such beds in all parts of the country is contribu- it further at this juncture. ting to that unfortunate increase in no small way. I strongly support the appeal made by Arch- Suicide is often an under-reported phenomenon bishop Dermot Clifford to the GAA, as this in this country. The waiting list for adolescent country’s principal amateur sporting organis- psychiatric care in Dublin is quite long because ation, to consider the possibility of removing just 12 beds are available. It is timely that we drinks advertising from their sporting events. The should have a debate on this matter. archbishop has raised an important matter in the context of a body that has a positive effect on Senator Nicky McFadden: Hear, hear. the lives of many young men and women in this country. In light of the damage caused by alcohol, Senator : Given the amount of the advertising of alcohol products should be criticism public bodies get in this country, I am banned outright. Each of the three voiceovers I sure the Leader, on behalf of the House, will be have done in my lifetime has caused difficulties. keen to record his appreciation of the manner in I have turned down a number of opportunities to which the National Council for Curriculum and make a substantial amount of money by lending Assessment discharged its public duty yesterday. my voice and my name to the promotion of drink Despite having to operate in the middle of a to young people. I will not ever do it. media firestorm, it held its nerve and advised the Minister to retain the poetry of Cathal O´ Sear- Senator : Good man. caigh on the leaving certificate syllabus. The council’s consideration of all the issues involved, Senator David Norris: The archbishop also which lasted less than two hours, took place in a made a good point when he argued that the calm atmosphere. We should not under-estimate scheduling of young people’s matches is some- the amount of courage it took to reach this times regrettable. Young people are dropped off decision, which marks another important step in at the church gates and carted off to play games, the maturing of our society, in such a calm man- missing mass in the process, and brought back ner. It may seem like a small decision, but it was when such activities are over. As an old fogey, I actually quite a big one. I spoke to a person who think one develops one’s habits at a young age. was at the meeting, who told me that their heart Going to church is habit-forming. I am glad that was lifted by the calm and steady way in which I formed such a habit early in my life. While I do the matter was considered. I am particularly glad not claim to be a good person, I think going to to pay tribute to the Association of Secondary church is a good habit of mine. Teachers in Ireland, which is often criticised, on The status of the Refugee Appeals Tribunal its willingness to ensure that the teachers and has been raised again today. I look forward to the pupils of Ireland can be trusted to debate and dis- debate in this House on the Immigration, Resi- cuss all the issues involved. dence and Protection Bill 2008. The front page of today’s The Irish Times reports that the Office of Senator David Norris: Hear, hear. the United Nations High Commissioner for Refu- gees has directly criticised the comfortable words Senator Eoghan Harris: There are very few of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law moments of this nature in Irish history. It is very Reform in the other House, when he appeared to easy to join a consensus, add to the media fires- suggest that the office supports the Irish system. torm and support those who wish to stone Cathal We need to examine carefully the legislation I O´ Searcaigh. The founder of Christianity would have mentioned. It is not, given that the UNHCR not have been found in such a mob. Media mobs has made 76 recommendations on it, the perfect are easy to assemble. They have been assembled instrument the Minister suggests. for all sorts of people in Irish society, from the I join colleagues in condemning the drastic and Taoiseach down. It is difficult to keep one’s head tragic use by appalling criminals of armed ten and separate out the issues in the middle of a year olds as pawns in the vicious game they are media firestorm. I reckon the little decision taken playing. A 13 year old boy was involved in a yesterday was as important, in its own way, as the serious shooting incident in Limerick. Given that meeting of Lemass and O’Neill, at one level. the House is currently considering the Passports Bill 2007, perhaps it would be appropriate to Senator Ann Ormonde: That is right. provide for the putting of a mark in the passports of those who involve children in the use of arms. Senator Eoghan Harris: It was as important as I am sure that proposal needs to be examined in the decision to open Croke Park or any other the context of civil rights, etc. The use of a pass- decision that took moral courage. I say “well port mark would draw the attention of officials in done” to those who make the decision, which we other countries to the presence of these danger- should salute. ous people. 1973 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1974

I support Senator O’Toole’s remarks about Committee on European Affairs, of which I am a schools. It would be very good if we had a debate member, will undertake a tour of our major cities on this issue. Like Members on all sides of the and towns to explain the reform treaty. The House, I have received appeals from people who Forum on Europe is also involved in a similar feel their schools are not being dealt with in an process. The President of the Irish Farmers appropriate manner or with the proper degree of Association, Mr. Padraig Walshe, is attending a speed. A distraught woman in Dublin 24 e-mailed meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, me yesterday to tell me that children in her local Fisheries and Food today to update members on school are being taught in rat-infested prefabri- the activities of the EU External Trade Com- cated cabins. Teachers in the school have to nego- missioner, Peter Mandelson, during the nego- tiate their way through the playground in such tiations on the world trade agreement. His main circumstances. While I assured the woman in point is that the commissioner is selling the question that I would try to raise the matter in futures of the farmers of this country. I ask the this House, I told her I was not sure what I could Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges do. I pointed out that it was a matter for the local to invite the President of the European Com- council and her local representatives in the Da´il. mission, Mr. Barroso, and the Commissioner, Mr. I said that Senators could play a role as part of a Mandelson, to come to this House to explain major debate on the matter. their activities during the current round of talks. I hate to disagree with Senator Fitzgerald, who This House should go through each item in the is an excellent leader of the group in Lisbon reform treaty, as Senator Ormonde has the House. suggested. We could have a debate on agriculture, and the Senator Jerry Buttimer: Hear, hear. human rights issues that are part of the treaty. We would be doing a great service because the Senator David Norris: I thought the Minister Lisbon reform treaty is the most of State, Deputy Tom Kitt, did a very good job 11 o’clock important issue to face this country this morning. in this century. The people of Ireland, on the edge of Europe, have the final say Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. in a decision that affects 500 million people. I hope the Cathaoirleach, the Committee on Pro- Senator David Norris: He showed considerable cedure and Privileges and the Leader will work moral courage in appearing to face down a back- during the Easter recess to formulate a rolling bench revolt regarding his plans to examine—— debate on every facet of the treaty, with Ministers and, if possible, Commissioners, coming here, not Senator Frances Fitzgerald: He did not face to influence the vote, but to explain each aspect them down. of this complex treaty. We could play an important role in dealing with these issues. When Senator David Norris: I heard he did. we have this lovely Chamber at our disposal we Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The whole point should use it to the best of our ability. was that he did not do so. Senator Nicky McFadden: We spoke at length Senator David Norris: I will listen to the radio yesterday about Ministers travelling abroad, interview again. That is what it seemed to me he especially to America. Will the Leader ask his was doing. ministerial colleagues and Senators who are trav- elling to highlight the issue of the undocumented Senator Frances Fitzgerald: No. Irish in America? The Taoiseach should highlight the seriousness of their situation when he Senator David Norris: He was warned about addresses Congress. the political dangers of the policy he was In the Irish Echo in America, Mr. Niall advocating. O’Dowd for the Irish lobby for immigration reform, cited examples of people living in the Senator : The backbenchers shadows who are afraid even to go to hospital. mouth off a bit and that is about it. One man, a labourer who was undocumented in America for nine years, died of pneumonia last Senator : They are afraid to say week because he was unable to go to hospital. anything. Young women are unable to renew their drivers’ licences and consequently cannot drive their chil- Senator Jerry Buttimer: We will get the real dren to school. These are our people and we story from Senator Leyden. should not forget about them. There are thou- sands of them in America. This affects all our Senator Terry Leyden: I agree with Senator communities because they are afraid to come Ormonde’s comments on the Lisbon treaty. I ask home for funerals and to see their families. We the Leader of the House to devote a certain should use the opportunity of the St. Patrick’s amount of time for a discussion between now and Day festival to highlight the undocumented the referendum date. I appreciate that the Joint people in America. 1975 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1976

Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: The Minister for Church would accept that Easter should take Justice, Equality and Law Reform has been in the place on the second Sunday in April if we agreed House to debate the Immigration Residence and to it. This would have many benefits, including Protection Bill and is determined to produce for tourism, energy and education. I do not know legislation that reflects best international practice how we would go about doing this but it has a in the area. The Bill integrates our ad hoc refugee European element and our Minister of State with and immigration legislation, which is a worth- responsibility for Europe should consider the while exercise. The Office of the United Nations opportunity of raising it at European level where High Commissioner for Refugees, while praising it would be seriously considered. This year Easter aspects of the Bill, has suggested that there are falls on 23 March and in three years’ time it will areas in which it falls short of best practice. As fall on 24 April. That is a 35 day gap. Having it monitors of legislation we should be aware of on a fixed date would have all sorts of benefits. this. One of its main recommendations is that the legislation does not fully observe the non-refoule- Senator David Norris: The first Easter was in ment principle, based on Article 33 of the 1951 33 AD. Senator Quinn has shortened Christ’s life refugee convention which states that a person by three years. should not be sent to a country where his or her life or freedom—— Senator : I am told I am correct.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Those points can be Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : Yesterday I spoke made in the debate. to a member of the Garda Sı´ocha´na who was dis- illusioned and discouraged. He was a very ideal- Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: It also makes useful istic gentleman as most members of the force are. recommendations to the effect that there should They see their role as serving the community and be no deportations while judicial reviews are ensuring security for all of us but there is a feeling under way and about separated children. We among them that because of a few bad apples — want to make sure this legislation reflects best which are found in every walk of society — the possible practice. Will the Leader raise these whole force has been tarred with the same brush. issues with the Minister so that when he is next They see themselves as being denigrated and ridi- before the House we can discuss them directly culed at times. We have one of the finest police with him? forces in the world whose members stand between us and chaos and anarchy. We expect Senator David Norris: Hear, hear, very well them to take on the gangs who are trying to ter- said. rorise the whole country. These men and women regularly put their lives on the line, sometimes Senator Feargal Quinn: I was not allowed to with terrible consequences for themselves and discuss the Schengen travel area yesterday in the their families. It is important for us to speak up debate on the Passports Bill because that was not for the force from time to time. the correct forum, but we should debate it. We I got the feeling speaking to this young man need to re-examine our relationship with the yesterday that they need a voice because confi- Schengen area, which comprises 24 countries dence within the force is not as strong as it should because we have attached ourselves to only one. be. We should not take them for granted. I have While that may have been the correct thing to do heard of people who want to opt out of the force in 1990, since then the British have imposed a when they are young. If that happens we will be photograph ID control between our two islands. giving in to the criminals and not ensuring we will People from the North of Ireland will require have a contented society in the future. We should photograph identification before travelling to avail of every opportunity to stand up for one of Britain. We attached to Britain because the land the finest police forces in the world. border between here and Northern Ireland will probably cease to exist. It is not acceptable for us Senator : I ask for the Minister of not to reconsider a decision made in 1990 and State with responsibility for labour affairs to have an opportunity to travel around the 24 coun- come to the House. The House had an excellent tries in Europe because freedom to travel is one debate last night on the Bill on of the elements of the Treaty of Rome. This is agency workers. A number of speakers from separate from the debate on the Lisbon treaty. across the House were in favour of the spirit of It may not be part of our job in Europe to pro- the Bill. It was a pity they could not walk through pose a fixed Easter but I recently became aware the lobbies in support of it. The debate raised that in 1975 Pope Paul VI argued for this. The many issues to do with labour affairs which the churches in Europe would accept that we cel- House needs to debate further. It is not just to do ebrate Easter on the second Sunday of April with agency workers and the vulnerable people because in 30 AD the first Easter took place on in society. There is a discourse on the treatment 9 April. I am now an expert in this matter. We of workers which is worrying. I note that four have, however, always linked it to the Passover, newspapers, all with similar titles and one of which is linked to the phases of the moon. All which is based in my county, dismissed their staff. the European countries connected to the Western They gave the staff 24 hours’ notice and then they 1977 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1978 locked the doors and closed the premises. The Terry Leyden, has done some excellent work with staff are still waiting to receive their pay and their regard to the registration of wills. The documen- redundancy money. This is no way to treat tary focused attention on the area of litigation workers. Despite what we say about them, and inheritance laws. It raised a number of journalists in general are not highly paid. The serious issues and grave concerns relating to majority do not earn large amounts of money and inheritance, wills, probate, the role of the the ones in the case I highlighted were treated in Attorney General, the role of the legal a disgraceful manner. profession—— I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. No. 19, motion 35 on the Order An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the Senator asking Paper is a Labour Party motion on the undocu- for a debate on the matter? mented Irish in the United States. I propose that this be discussed after the Order of Business and Senator : ——the role of executors without debate if possible. I respect the views of and of witnesses. I draw to the attention of the Senator McFadden which I support whole- House and put on the record the public interest heartedly. I spoke to a number of people in in the area of family disputes over estates and America in the past 24 hours and they were beneficiaries. Could the Leader arrange for the delighted when I told them I was proposing this relevant Minister to brief the House on matters motion. Members on the other side of the House relating to such litigation and inheritance laws? have supported a motion on this matter in the past and this motion is the same as that passed in Senator : Will the Leader the other House. I told the people I was speaking inquire from the Minister for Justice, Equality to last night that the House has a very honourable and Law Reform when legislation will be intro- Leader and that I was sure he and his party and duced on the regulation of the legal profession the Government would fully support this motion. in light of the many, recent and well-publicised I hope the Leader will accept this motion in the activities of some solicitors? There should be an spirit in which it is given and in the run-up to St. independent regulatory authority to deal with the Patrick’s day so that the undocumented Irish in legal profession rather than an ombudsman as the America would be given the full support of this Minister suggests. The system of self-regulation House and that this motion would be passed with- should be a thing of the past. Will the Leader out debate. inquire why there has been a delay in introducing this legislation and when we are likely to see it An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I cannot accept before the House? Senator Kelly’s amendment because the motion On the question of penalty points, I agree with was only submitted late last night. Under Stand- our leader’s view that it is a bizarre suggestion to ing Order 26 four days’ notice is required. have double penalty points on weekends. It is a ludicrous suggestion and with all due respect to Senator Alan Kelly: I am aware of that and I the Leader of the House, it was as bizarre as his appreciate that those are the Standing Orders. suggestion that we should drive on the other side However, in the spirit of the motion I ask the of the road. If these are the types of proposals Leader to consider it being taken. this Government is suggesting to deal with the carnage on the roads, it does not bode well for Senator Ivor Callely: I join my colleague, the future. Senator Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ , in his expressions of praise, respect and admiration for the tremen- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the Senator look- dous police force we have in this country. I sup- ing for a debate? port wholeheartedly what he said. We are fortu- nate to have such a committed police force, Senator Maurice Cummins: Yes. I am looking especially as it is headed and led by Com- for a debate on the matter. The subject of crime missioner Fachtna Murphy. The majority of the has been referred to as well as the number of people would support Senator O´ Murchu´ ’s com- murders in this country. It is essential the proper ments on the Garda Sı´ocha´na. resources are provided to the Garda Sı´ocha´na to I wish to raise the issue of the important combat this crime. I have been informed by some humanitarian mission in Chad. The House dis- gardaı´ that the resources are not available and cussed the matter in November 2007. I am aware that overtime has been reduced at weekends there have been some renewed rebel attacks and when dealing with Operation Anvil and other political problems affecting the internal situation. work. I ask that the House be advised of the delays in the humanitarian mission, the impact of such An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator can delay on Irish troops and the revised time sched- make those points during the debate. ule for the commencement of the humanitarian mission. Senator Maurice Cummins: I want a debate. I I wish to raise another issue of public interest. want to make the point that resources should be I refer to a recent television documentary on given to the Garda Sı´ocha´na to tackle the RTE. My good friend and colleague, Senator problems. 1979 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1980

Senator Jim Walsh: Ba mhaith liom aontu´ leis When the Minister, Deputy Hanafin, was in an me´id ata´ ra´ite ag an Seanado´ ir Nicky Ballinamore, County Leitrim recently, she McFadden mar gheall ar na daoine o´ n tir seo ata´ attacked the parents’ committee for contacting i Nua Eabhrac, Boston agus cathracha eile sna the Department of Education and Science on a Sta´it Aontaithe agus nach bhfuil cead acu bheith daily basis. It is appalling that any Minister might ann. leave the parents in that situation, but to attack I support Senator McFadden’s views. The citizens for trying to do what is best for their chil- Minister for Foreign Affairs has taken a part- dren is terrible and is probably an example of the icular interest in this matter. I recently made rep- state of education in Ireland. resentations to him about a citizen from my town, I support Senator Alan Kelly’s proposal for a a young girl who is undocumented and who was discussion on the undocumented Irish. I proposed incarcerated for four weeks in a women’s prison on Tuesday, and three times before that, a joint before being deported. This is unacceptable party motion on this issue. I understand that the behaviour and the Minister has referred it to the Leas-Chathaoirleach has ruled the motion out of American authorities. I agree with the sentiments order, but there is nothing to prevent the Leader and the content of the motion put forward by from taking the same text and passing a motion members of the Labour Party and I think the in the House without debate. I appeal to the House should speak with one voice and support Leader not to make this a party political issue, the Minister and the Taoiseach in their strenuous which it is not. efforts. They have both raised the matter with President Bush on previous visits to the United An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Chair has ruled States. in this matter. I also wish to raise another issue, albeit with some reluctance. Given the week that is in it and Senator Pearse Doherty: I understand and I the affinity which many Members have with the agree with the ruling, although I am not happy goings-on in Cheltenham, I ask the Leader to with it. arrange a debate at an early stage on the addic- tion of gambling and its consequences. In the ten An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator is query- years I have been in this House, we have had ing the ruling of the Chair. many debates on alcohol and drug addiction but we need to focus specifically on the effects of Senator Pearse Doherty: I am not challenging gambling. It is a widespread habit and there has the ruling of the Chair. What I am saying is—— been a significant increase in the number of bet- ting shops in all towns. Betting is also available An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The matter is already on-line and there are one-arm bandit machines ruled on. and other machines in betting shops. One of the bookmakers recently reported profits of \63 mil- Senator Pearse Doherty: I am raising a differ- lion, an increase of 50%, which is phenomenal, ent point. I am asking the Leader to amend the even in a growing economy. Order of Business, taking the text—— Underpinning some of those profits are har- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader cannot rowing personal accounts for individuals and amend the Order of Business. their families. Apparently, it is one of the largest contributory factors in suicide in Ireland, there- Senator Pearse Doherty: The Leader can do fore, it is an issue on which we should focus. that. There may well be an argument for planning advertising in regard to it. I ask the Leader (Interruptions.) whether he could, at an early opportunity, have a debate on this most important topic. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader cannot accept an amendment. It is our of order. Senator Pearse Doherty: Ar dtu´ sba´ire I want to mention the issue regarding the state of school Senator Pearse Doherty: I am not asking that. buildings raised again today by Senator O’Toole. I am asking the Leader himself not to make this I am glad that it has been selected as a matter for party political, amend the Order of Business and the Adjournment this week. It is appalling that allow for a non-debated motion—— parents, pupils and teachers have been left in a situation where they do not know when their An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Chair has schools will be refurbished or updated. There is a already ruled in this matter and the Leader question now of political interference in the pro- cannot accept an amendment that is out of order. cess. When this Minister took office, she over- This amendment is out of order. turned a practice already in place, where school building lists were produced. As Senator O’Toole Senator Mary M. White: Let the Chair show mentioned two days ago, some schools have to some flexibility. repeatedly phone the Department of Education and Science to seek updates on what stage their Senator Alan Kelly: The Chair should be projects are at only to get standard answers. flexible. 1981 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1982

Senator Pearse Doherty: The Leader can had structures in respect of domestic violence and amend his own Order of Business, without it proper agencies either at local authority level or being on the Order Paper. within the HSE to deal with this, we could con- tain the problem, which is being exacerbate by An Leas-Chathaoirleach: This motion cannot increased alcohol consumption in the home, be moved by anybody. another issue that might be brought into the debate. Senator David Norris: It is the will of the I have noted with dismay this morning the House. application by Cork Institute of Technology for university status, as is its right. However, there is Senator Pearse Doherty: I am not moving that a special need for a university in the south east. motion. I am asking the Leader of the House to If all the other institutes of technology are going have a debate, and do not want this issue to be to demand university status that will not help the party political. I am asking him—— very special case being made by the south east. Copious calls to the Leader have been made for a An Leas-Chathaoirleach: There is no problem debate in this regard during this and the previous with that. session. I again ask for one to be held.

Senator Pearse Doherty: ——because I asked Senator Jerry Buttimer: Senator McDonald’s for this on Tuesday, and it was rejected. This Minister is blocking it. It is Government policy. should not become a party political issue. The Leader has indicated he wants to be in America Senator Lisa McDonald: That is not relevant. when the Taoiseach addresses the Joint Houses Would the Senator mind sitting down like a good of Congress. If he turns his back on the 40,000 Corkman and be quiet for a while? All he seems undocumented Irish, he should not be there. Let to do is denigrate someone when he or she is us have the debate. Let him do what Members of making a point. I was merely trying to make my the Oireachtas on all sides want, namely, to sup- point.—— port the undocumented Irish. (Interruptions). Senator David Norris: I want to raise a point of order on this. Supposing Senator Kelly were to An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator McDonald put this forward under Standing Order 29 as a has made her point. matter of urgent national importance. It is in the hands of the Chair to rule, because it is the unani- Senator Lisa McDonald: I do not know what mous wish of the House that this should be point the Senator is making. He just keeps shout- taken. ing. I am not finished——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: As the Senator well An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Senator is knows, that is a different procedure. finished.

Senator David Norris: I am suggesting he Senator Lisa McDonald: I want to move on to should do it. something else——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I call Senator (Interruptions). McDonald. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We have run out of Senator Lisa McDonald: On a separate issue, I time and I am calling on the Leader to reply. want to call for a debate on sexual offences against women. There has been an enormous Senator Lisa McDonald: Other Senators spoke number of murders involving women victims, for longer—— violence against women in the home etc., and this area seems to be slipping on the political agenda. (Interruptions). During the week we had a debate on human traf- ficking when the issue of prostitution arose and An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Under Standing whether the users of such sexual services should Orders I am obliged to call Senators within a cer- be criminalised within this jurisdiction. I note tain time—— with interest that the Governor of New York State, Eliot Spitzer, has resigned on that very Senator Lisa McDonald: How come everybody issue — and that in the District of Columbia it is else had longer than I had? a felony to use prostitution services. This should be brought into that whole debate, and the Mini- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Seven other speakers ster has said he would look at it in that context. have offered, but cannot be taken. I must ask In Ireland we require structures with regard to Senator McDonald to resume her seat. I call on domestic violence. The domestic violence unit is the Leader of the House. used in Ireland to trap pimps and prostitutes but it should be employed where it is needed. If we (Interruptions). 1983 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1984

Senator Donie Cassidy: Senators Fitzgerald, implemented in that part of Australia, why not Buttimer, Ormonde and Norris all expressed try it here on a pilot basis? their condemnation regarding violence on the streets. I support—— Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear.

(Interruptions). Senator Donie Cassidy: I commend the Mini- ster of State on coming up with the idea of doubl- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader, without ing the penalty points for road traffic offences interruption. over the bank holiday weekend. I call on the Road Safety Authority to consider taking it on Senator : Are we moving an board. The Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel amendment to the Order of Business? Dempsey, is to meet the police in New South Wales on his visit to Australia with a view to An Leas-Chathaoirleach: No, it is too late. The clarifying the nuts and bolts of the idea. Leader of the House is on his feet. Senators O’Toole, Boyle, Buttimer, Norris and Doherty asked for the Minister for Education and Senator Paul Coghlan: Then I appeal to the Science to be invited to the House to debate the Leader to take into account what Senators issue of returning to the priority list system in Doherty and Kelly said. respect of the schools building programme. As has been pointed out by Senator Doherty, the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader of the current Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel House is replying. Dempsey, put this system in place when he was Minister for Education and Science. The system Senator Donie Cassidy: I ask Senators to co- worked very well. I understand there is great operate with the Chair. The Chair has a difficult demand on the east coast in particular because job and I ask for support—— the population is increasing rapidly in that region. Senator Jerry Buttimer: The Leader should I am sure the Minister for Education and Science, speak to his own party. Deputy Hanafin, will come to the House to debate this. I welcome the allocations made earl- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Buttimer ier this year. I welcome the fact that 2,000 of the should allow the Leader to speak, without 4,000 teachers referred to in the programme for interruption. Government have been put in place. Considerable investment is being made and we Senator Donie Cassidy: Senators Fitzgerald, therefore should consider supporting in every Ormonde, Norris and Buttimer all expressed way we can the boards of management, princi- their shock and horror at the violence taking pals, Oireachtas Members and other public rep- place on our streets. We fully support the senti- resentatives with a view to feeding information to ments that have been expressed here this morn- and making life easier for the community ing, particularly as regards how crime must be members who volunteer their time to support tackled. As Senator O´ Murchu´ and others have education in their parishes. said, we want to commend members of the Garda I agree with Senator O’Toole on wind turbines, Sı´ocha´na who are putting their lives at risk every especially those with the full approval of their day on the streets in the various areas they work communities. I will be in touch with the office of in. I have no difficulty in inviting the Minister to the Minister with a view to updating the Senator the House for a debate on this issue. on the position on planning applications. There Senators noted the Government Chief Whip’s seems to be no good reason planning permission call this morning on young people in particular, should not be granted for developing this very but on everyone who uses the roads, to take part- environmentally friendly means of energy gener- icular care on bank holiday weekends. The Garda ation. As an island country, Ireland has a great Sı´ocha´na will be very vigilant over the Easter advantage in this area. holiday period, especially its dedicated traffic Senator Hannigan pointed out the various corps which this year will reach its full com- increases in charges sanctioned by the Com- plement of 1,200 personnel. The Minister for mission for Aviation Regulation. I will pass on his Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Brian strong views to the Minister for Transport. The Lenihan, and the former Minister, Michael Senator also sought to establish the up-to-date McDowell, in the previous Government certainly position on quarrying and quarrying legislation. can claim much credit for increasing the com- Most reputable people who operate quarries have plement of the corps from 575 four years ago to spent a great deal of money updating them 1,200 today. according to the requirements of the Department. I join the Minister of State at the Department I certainly would not have any difficulty with of the Taoiseach, Deputy Tom Kitt, in calling for allowing time for such a discussion. everyone to take good care on the roads over the Senator Boyle called for a debate on the brain two upcoming bank holiday weekends. We are awareness week campaign. I made a commitment told best practice regarding road safety is evident in this regard and have no difficulty in allowing in New South Wales. If there is a good idea being for such a debate. 1985 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1986

Senators Ormonde and Leyden called for the Deputy Dermot Ahern, certainly have been to House to prioritise the debate on the pending the forefront in this regard also. I have every con- Lisbon treaty referendum. As I informed the fidence that all our Ministers will be doing their House last week, the President of the European best on this very important issue. Parliament will be present in the House at 10.30 a.m. on 8 April, after the Easter recess. I intend Senator Frances Fitzgerald: Are we to have a to have a debate on the treaty that afternoon and debate? evening in the presence of the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader, without Roche. interruption. As the Members probably know, the Twenty- eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill, per- Senator Donie Cassidy: The Leader is always taining to the Lisbon treaty, will be before the very forthcoming when support is needed from House for consideration, possibly two weeks after the leaders of each party. This matter did not we return from the Easter recess. In the month appear on the Order Paper for today. The of April alone, therefore, we will be considering Senators have not called for an all-party motion the Bill and hearing from the President of the today. European Parliament. If Senators have any good ideas in this regard, the Leader is always pre- Senator Alan Kelly: That is a technicality. pared to consider them and to make discussion possible in the House such that the public will be Senator Donie Cassidy: If, after the Order of informed fully regarding the decision they must Business today, the leaders agree to an all-party make. motion, with which we on this side of the House Senator Prendergast called for a debate on will have no difficulty, I will allow it next psychiatric beds for adolescents. She made an Wednesday without fail. urgent request in this regard on two or three occasions and I have no difficulty with having a Senator Alan Kelly: St. Patrick’s weekend is debate on the matter. approaching. Senators Harris and Norris referred to the courageous decision of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment to retain the poetry Senator Donie Cassidy: I am stating I fully sup- of Cathal O´ Searcaigh on the leaving certificate port the motion in its entirety. I will accept it on syllabus, thus acknowledging the talent of this next Wednesday’s Order of Business—— renowned poet. I support the views of the Senators in this regard. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: We could have a Senator Norris referred to alcohol abuse and debate. advertising. Everyone is in agreement with the sentiments of the Senator, particularly in respect (Interruptions). of advertising billboards. We had the same chal- lenge with smoking. I am not an expert in this An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader without area because, as everyone knows, I do not drink, interruption. but I believe there should be no bars in schools. One is in school to learn and use one’s brain. Senator Donie Cassidy: The proposal has been ruled out of order. The leaders of the Senators’ Senator Paul Coghlan: Where are there bars respective parties did not bring the matter to our in schools? attention at our weekly meeting.

Senator Donie Cassidy: Universities have bars. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: It is being done We must give a good example and be consistent. now.

Senator Pearse Doherty: Close the Da´il bar. Senator Donie Cassidy: If they had done so, they would have received our full support. Senator Donie Cassidy: As I stated, I am not Members on this side of the House fully support an expert but I will take advice from experts in the undocumented Irish—— this area.

Senator Jerry Buttimer: Close all the hotels. Senator Paul Coghlan: The Leader should allow a debate today. Senator Donie Cassidy: Senators McFadden, Walsh and Kelly expressed strong views on the (Interruptions). undocumented Irish. As I stated in the House yesterday, Deputy , during all his An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader without years as Taoiseach, has been to the forefront in interruption, please. highlighting the matter with US Presidents at every available opportunity. All Ministers for Senator David Norris: It was raised on the Foreign Affairs, including the current one, Order of Business last week. 1987 Order of 13 March 2008. Business 1988

Senator Donie Cassidy: I know hundreds of the is needed for a debate on supporting the force boys and girls about whom the Senators are and providing it with resources. Time will not be talking. a problem for that to be discussed in the House so that we can see how we can give further sup- Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The debate could port for the great work of the Garda Sı´ocha´na. be held at 3.30 p.m. today. Senator Kelly congratulated Members on state- ments made in the House last night regarding Senator Donie Cassidy: I knew them before workers, their rights and their treatment. We all Senator Kelly was born. fully support workforces. In one case, however, the employer did not have a chance to give notice Senator Alan Kelly: I spoke to some of them to its employees that their jobs were to go. The last night and told them the Leader was an keys were asked for by another entity and it was honourable man—— taken out of the employer’s hands.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald: The Leader’s com- Senator Alan Kelly: It happened in four places. ment is irrelevant. Senator Donie Cassidy: I have a very good (Interruptions). friend who is employed by the employer to whom Senator Kelly refers. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader without interruption. Senator Alan Kelly: A well known phil- anthropist. Senator Donie Cassidy: We will deal with the matter by way of an all-party motion next week. Senator Donie Cassidy: It is a very difficult (Interruptions). industry. I do not want to say too much but I fully support holding a debate in the House on Senator Liam Twomey: Can we do something workers and the need for people who do an hon- for them before they die? est day’s work for an honest day’s pay to be treated respectfully and decently. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Leader without Senator Callely called for legislation on wills interruption. and inheritance. Senator Leyden has spent a lot of time on this matter and has given the benefit Senator Jerry Buttimer: Of what is the Leader of his expertise in the area to the Oireachtas. The afraid? acceptance of his Bill was a watershed.

Senator Donie Cassidy: If there is a way of Senator Mary M. White: Hear, hear. holding a debate today, by arrangement with the leaders after the Order of Business, I have no dif- Senator Donie Cassidy: I have no difficulty ficulty in doing so. with Senator Callely’s proposal. We, as public representatives, are trusted by our constituents An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Chair has ruled and they come to us for advice in this area. Our on this motion. first advise to them should always be to make a will because family disputes arise where there is Senator Donie Cassidy: Senator Quinn called no will. Those disputes can continue for a long for a reconsideration of our relationship with the time and the cost of reaching a final outcome can 24 countries which are party to the Schengen take up to 40% of the estate. I have no difficulty Agreement and made the point that identification in passing the Senator’s views on to the Minister is now necessary for those of us who wish to and holding a debate in the House to explore how travel within the UK. I will arrange a debate on we can improve the situation. this matter at the earliest possible opportunity. Senator Cummins asked about the Bill on regu- He also proposed the movement of the feast of lation of the legal profession. I will make inquir- Easter to the second Sunday in April, as had His ies of the Department and come back to the Holiness Pope Paul VI in 1975, and I will pass his Senator this afternoon with a reply. Senator views on to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Walsh called for an urgent debate on gambling. the Minister of State at the Department of A television programme at 11. p.m. last night Foreign Affairs, with responsibility for Euro- dealt with the difficulties involved in gambling. It pean Affairs. seems over 10% of the population have a major I fully agree with Senators O´ Murchu´ and problem with gambling. I do not mind a flutter Cummins in their calls for support for the Garda on the Grand National, whether the Fairyhouse Sı´ocha´na. We should do everything we can to or Aintree version, or even at Cheltenham, where ensure it has all the resources necessary to fight one or two of our colleagues had some fortune crime. There have been huge increases in the on the first day. We do not know what will hap- funding for personnel and the membership of the pen today or tomorrow but there is a serious level Garda Sı´ocha´na is probably at its highest level in of addiction involving many people and I have no the history of the State. I will allow whatever time difficulty in allocating time for a debate. 1989 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 1990

Senator McDonald called for a debate on very good day to hold such a debate, perhaps at offences against women and I have no difficulty 3.30 p.m. in such a debate taking place. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: That is not a point of order. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the Order of Busi- ness agreed? Senator Frances Fitzgerald: We oppose the Order of Business because we believe there should be a debate on the issue today. Senator Frances Fitzgerald: No. On a point of order, I welcome what the Leader said on an all- Question put: “That the Order of Business be Party motion on the undocumented. Today is a agreed to.”

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 24; Nı´l, 17.

Ta´

Boyle, Dan. Harris, Eoghan. Brady, Martin. Leyden, Terry. Butler, Larry. MacSharry, Marc. Callanan, Peter. McDonald, Lisa. O´ Murchu´ , Labhra´s. Callely, Ivor. O’Malley, Fiona. Carty, John. O’Sullivan, Ned. Cassidy, Donie. Ormonde, Ann. Corrigan, Maria. Phelan, Kieran. Daly, Mark. Walsh, Jim. de Bu´ rca, De´irdre. White, Mary M. Feeney, Geraldine. Wilson, Diarmuid. Hanafin, John.

Nı´l

Burke, Paddy. Hannigan, Dominic. Buttimer, Jerry. Healy Eames, Fidelma. Coffey, Paudie. Kelly, Alan Coghlan, Paul. McFadden, Nicky. Norris, David. Cummins, Maurice. Prendergast, Phil. Doherty, Pearse. Quinn, Feargal. Donohoe, Paschal. Ryan, Brendan. Fitzgerald, Frances. Twomey, Liam.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators De´irdre de Bu´ rca and ; Nı´l, Senators Maurice Cummins and Dominic Hannigan.

Question declared carried. Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages. Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children: Motion. NEW SECTIONS. Senator Donie Cassidy: I move: Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation That Seanad E´ ireann, notwithstanding the No. 1: Order of 22 November 2007, requesting that In page 11, before section 1, to insert the fol- the Joint Committee on the Constitutional lowing new section: Amendment on Children examine the Twenty- Eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill “PART 1 2007 and consider the text set out in the Sched- TAXPAYERS’ ADVOCATE OFFICE ule to that Bill with regard to the matters set out in the Orders of Reference of the Joint 1.—The Ombudsman shall include in her Committee, and to report back to each House annual report a special report on the over- with recommendations in a final report four payment of tax by PAYE taxpayers, and on months from the date of establishment, now the take up of credits by such taxpayers, and requests the Joint Committee to report back the branch of her office dedicated to ensur- not later than 30 November 2008, and para- ing that the take up of credits is readily avail- graph (5) of the Orders of Reference shall be able to all taxpayers, and refunds made as substituted by the following: ‘The Joint Com- rapidly as possible where this arises, as well mittee shall have the powers defined in Stand- as ensuring the availability of a ready mech- ing Orders 70(1) to (9) inclusive and 86(2)’.” anism for informing taxpayers (particularly pensioners) who are entitled to a refund of Question put and agreed to. 1991 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 1992

[Senator Alan Kelly.] can request a review by Revenue of any aspect of DIRT tax, shall be known as the taxpayers’ the way in which their tax affairs have been hand- advocate office.”. led. Such reviews are carried out by a senior official who was not involved in the original This recommendation relates to a taxpayers’ decision. Ultimately, taxpayers who are dissatis- advocate office. We propose the establishment of fied with their treatment by Revenue can make a a taxpayers’ advocate who would be independent statutory appeal to the Appeal Commissioners of the Revenue Commissioners and who would who, by law, are independent of the Revenue take cases independently on behalf of taxpayers Commissioners. and ensure these were dealt with in a fair and In the Finance Act 2007, the Minister intro- transparent manner. duced new schemes to allow the operation of The most effective way of obtaining tax refunds DIRT-exempt accounts, subject to two con- from the Revenue Commissioners in respect of ditions. These were that the account holder must many payments would be to introduce a method be 65 or over or permanently incapacitated and similar to that used with mortgage that their total income must not exceed their cur- 12 o’clock interest relief. In this regard, the way rent exemption limit. In 2007, Revenue arranged in which taxpayers get their money for an information leaflet to be issued to social would be done centrally and would seem to work welfare customers in receipt of State and other quite well after some initial teething problems. pensions. Approximately 100,000 leaflets were This would help to deal with a range of different issued in this way and Revenue will continue to refunds to which people are entitled, such as publicise through appropriate channels the doctors’ fees and bin charges. We are putting this facility offered by the accounts. proposal forward because it is a way of dealing The Revenue Commissioners are satisfied that with what is currently a cumbersome method by their ongoing efforts to inform taxpayers of their which taxpayers must apply to Revenue. A entitlements are having the desired effect. This serious volume of money goes unclaimed. is demonstrated in the substantial increase in the We propose that such a process would be over- number of PAYE taxpayers seeking reviews of seen by a taxpayers’ advocate in such a way to their tax liability in the context of claiming help the Revenue Commissioners to overhaul the additional tax credits and reliefs. The number of current cumbersome system. We hope the Mini- PAYE reviews processed in 2006 was 1.14 mil- ster would look favourably upon this and support lion, as opposed to 552,000 in 2005. the amendment. Revenue staff in front offices dealing with the public and those manning customer helplines are Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): trained to give full assistance to all customers. The Senator’s recommendation is one which was The fact that few people are enthusiastic about debated at some length in the other House. The paying taxes is all the more reason for effective Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance is not con- channels of complaint and appeal by taxpayers vinced still of the merits of the case. The statutory against poor service or unfairness. However, remit of the Ombudsman already incorporates given the comprehensive and accessible system both of the roles proposed for a taxpayers’ advo- already in place for complaints or appeals by any cate, namely, acting for taxpayers and investigat- taxpayer who feels unfairly treated by the tax ing actions which are contrary to fair or sound system, it is not obvious that there is a case for administration. putting in place an additional layer of a tax advo- Since the inception of the Office of the cate’s office. Ombudsman, a significant number of tax queries have been submitted to it. The Ombudsman has Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. carried out a number of special investigations on the office’s initiative, such as an investigation into Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation the repayment of tax to certain widows and the No. 2: operation of schemes for disabled drivers. I must In page 11, before section 1, to insert the fol- point out that when calls were previously made lowing new section: for the establishment of a taxpayers’ advocate, the Ombudsman drew attention to the dupli- “PART 1 cation of roles and responsibilities that such a CHARITY STATUS OF TIDY TOWNS development would have involved. GROUPS Apart from the statutory role and responsibil- ities of the Ombudsman, other avenues are also 1.—Any group which in the opinion of the open to taxpayers to make their complaints or to Minister formed or designed towards partici- seek satisfaction for perceived unfair treatment. pation in a tidy towns scheme shall be entitled to benefit from charitable status for They can lodge a customer service complaint the purposes of the Principal Act.”. about the standard of service received in their personal contact with the Revenue Commis- This is something to which I drew the Minister’s sioners. They can complain to a Revenue office attention yesterday. There seems to be some con- by telephone, correspondence, fax and e-mail or fusion in respect of the charitable status of Tidy in person. In addition, or as an alternative, they Towns groups and inconsistencies in the way in 1993 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 1994 which it works. While I will not press this amend- cally to designate all Tidy Towns groups as being ment, I ask that we look at this issue because tax exempt because they are charities, we would these groups carry out a significant volume of have the unusual situation where organisations work. Birdhill, which is a parish near me, has won which might be blatantly acting outside what the the award for a number of years and the amount regulations provide in respect of charitable pur- of work it does is phenomenal. poses would be exempt while others which are I know the Minister said yesterday that a probably nearer the definition of charity would number of Tidy Towns groups have charitable tax not. status going back 20 years but others do not The position at the moment is that a Tidy appear to have this status. We need a consistent Towns organisation must apply for charitable tax approach to the way Tidy Towns groups are exempt status and the Revenue Commissioners treated so that they can benefit from the work will decide case by case whether it is inside or they do. outside the statutory definition.

Deputy Willie O’Dea: I understand where the Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. Senator is coming from and I am aware of that apparent anomaly. It is a matter for the Revenue Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation Commissioners to determine whether a body or No. 3: organisation has been established for charitable In page 11, before section 1, to insert the fol- purposes. I have been advised that the activities lowing new section: of Tidy Towns organisations, generally speaking, would be regarded as satisfying one of the categ- “PART 1 ories of charitable purpose, which is that they are COMMISSION ON TAXATION to be of benefit to the broader community. The other categories of charitable purpose are the 1.—The Minister shall in establishing the advancement of religion, the relief of poverty and commission on taxation include in its terms the advancement of education. Obviously, Tidy of reference the following matters: Towns groups do not have anything to do with (a) to examine anomalies arising from these categories. the tax treatment of married persons A number of Tidy Towns organisations enjoy where one spouse remains out of paid charitable tax exempt status, the first of which employment in order to attend to child was approved approximately 20 years ago. Two care duties; key requirements must be satisfied for a body to (b) to examine the treatment of unmar- maintain charitable status under the Revenue ried persons living together including gay rules. The first is that the body must be estab- couples in long term relationships; lished solely for charitable purposes. That would normally be stated in the body’s governing instru- (c) to examine the operation and pos- ment. Second, and perhaps more importantly, the sible reform of stamp duty particularly the body must apply its funds solely for charitable capacity of property developers to avoid purposes. This means that, on an ongoing basis, stamp duty on certain transactions and the the body must conduct itself in accordance with exclusion of certain financial transactions its governing principles. Failure to do so will (e.g. contracts for difference) from the result in a removal of charitable tax exempt lower rate of stamp duty applied to finan- status. cial transactions; If the Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance simply (d) to examine the need to ensure that designated all those bodies as charities for the carbon tax proposals have due regard to purposes of the charitable donations scheme, as the ability of less well off individuals suggested by the amendment, the ongoing means including pensioners to meet the cost aris- of control would be absent. The bodies would ing from increased taxation on carbon retain charitable tax exempt status regardless of based fuels such as coal and gas; the function they ultimately carried out. There is a definition of what someone must do to qualify (e) to inquire into the fairness and for charitable tax exempt status. Any organis- equity of the overall tax system and to ation, such as a Tidy Towns organisation, can provide for the evaluation of tax breaks apply to the Revenue Commissioners to see if it and other provisions permitting tax payers comes within the rules. Sometimes, after looking to mitigate their tax liabilities and the at all the facts of the case, the Revenue Commis- impact in particular of provisions for sioners will say that it does, while in other cases exemption from tax and residency rules it will say that it does not. and shall publish at regular intervals the I assume that if one Tidy Towns group estab- outcome of their enquiries into the tax lishes a precedent of being designated as a charity system.”. under the legislation, there must be something This amendment has been somewhat pre-empted materially different about what is being done by or overtaken by the decision by the Minister for another Tidy Towns organisation such that it Finance to set up a Commission on Taxation. does not get that exemption. If we were automati- While I will not press the amendment, I wish to 1995 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 1996

[Senator Alan Kelly.] reference of the commission that were also make a few points. The terms of reference set out announced on the same day are deliberately for the commission need to be widened. They broadly defined, far-reaching and allow for con- should provide some methodology in respect of sideration of all aspects of the taxation system, as the examination of high net worth individuals and Senator Boyle has said. Introducing the type of the level of tax they pay which, as my party has very specific terms of reference proposed in the pointed out on a number of occasions, is not at recommendation can only serve to restrict the the required rate. For various reasons they do not work of the commission and introduce unnecess- seem to be paying tax although they are investing ary constraints. in capital programmes, etc. However, some analy- When setting up a commission to examine the sis is needed. taxation system generally, it does not make sense We believe the terms of reference of the com- to have terms of reference relating to examining mission need to be widened. If this is not being stamp duty on contracts for difference, which accounted for, the way it will work will not satisfy would be very restrictive. If we were to make the the requirements of what a commission should be terms of reference so specific that it removes the doing. While it has terms of reference to deal with discretion for the commission, why have a com- many issues, I would like to see it carrying out a mission in the first place? As the Ta´naiste indi- serious review of the benefits of tax individualis- cated on the Committee and Report Stages in the ation, because I and others across many parties other House, the members of the commission are are not convinced about its merits. While I will drawn from the social partners, the accounting not press the recommendation, I wish to make and tax advisory services that advise all busi- those points. nesses, big and small, accomplished people with environmental and economic expertise, and Senator Dan Boyle: While I note the recom- people with wide experience in central and local mendation is not being pressed, I wish to outline government. The wide range of skills and know- some of my thoughts on the Commission on Tax- ledge of the members of the commission will ation. It was included in the programme for ensure we get a report that will help shape future Government at the suggestion of the policy in a positive manner. I have every confi- and I am happy that the Ta´naiste and Minister dence in the chairman, who is the former chair- for Finance has established the body. The terms man of the Revenue Commissioners, Mr. Frank of reference are not about what the commission Daly. I am sure he is fully conversant with what can or cannot do. The commission has a specific the commission wants to do and he will ensure remit to examine the taxation system. The terms the commission is steered in the right direction. of reference cover particular areas the com- mission will examine and report on. When pub- Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. lished in 2009 I expect the report to be very wide-ranging. An Cathaoirleach: Recommendation No. 4 is I was concerned that the Senator’s recom- out of order as it involves a potential charge on mendation proposed introducing certain things the people. without taking others into account. I refer specifi- cally to the carbon levy, which is one of the Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation priorities for the commission. I find offensive the No. 5: suggestion that such a levy would be introduced In page 11, before section 1, to insert the fol- without due regard for the ability of people to lowing new section: pay and its social consequences. I have every cer- tainty that what will be proposed by the com- “PART 1 mission and adopted by the Government will be TAX RELIEF AT SOURCE appraised on those lines. The Labour Party needs to indicate whether it believes in environmental 1.—Tax relief at source shall be available taxation and if so that it can only be introduced for environmental service charges.”. without socially negative consequences. Every- I hope this will be considered favourably. We one involved in the political system should accept believe the tax relief on environmental service that, rather than trying to score cheap political charges, including bin charges etc. should be points. applied at source. There is considerable under- claiming of these reliefs, particularly in Dublin. Deputy Willie O’Dea: As the Senators will be Given the number of environmental service pro- aware the Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance viders we have — I note the announcements of announced the establishment of the Commission changes recently particularly in Dublin — and on Taxation on 14 February. The work of the taking into account all the local authorities, most commission will help establish the framework of which provide some of these services or award within which tax policy will be set for the next them in some cases to private contractors, it is decade at least. It is important for the commission difficult to fathom why we cannot have a central to take a strategic, considered and balanced per- system for doing this. Households in most parts spective that recognises the evolving challenges of the country are being billed. By doing this we we face on the tax front. Therefore the terms of would provide a process by which the house- 1997 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 1998 holders would be able to get the benefit of the introduction of any such scheme of direct relief relief while importantly taking away the bureauc- at source. To ensure the tax relief is highlighted racy. As with the other recommendations on to as many eligible payments as possible the local which I have spoken, it would help to reduce the authorities have agreed to assist Revenue in number of residents who are not benefiting from publicising the relief. The Ta´naiste is favourably the relief they should be getting and would elim- disposed to the general notion of giving as much inate the administrative burden. tax relief at source to those matters as possible. The Senators can rest assured that the Revenue Senator Liam Twomey: Yesterday I spoke will continue working to find a way. about people installing geothermal or solar panels on their houses. Instead of needing to Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. apply for a grant they should be able to get tax relief. When they apply for grant they need to Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation submit the C2 number of the installing contractor. No. 6: It would be less bureaucratic than giving a grant In page 11, before section 1, to insert the fol- to people who want to make changes to their life- lowing new section: styles and improve the environment. It would also be more tax efficient and economic to give “PART 1 the equivalent of the grant as a tax relief and RESTRICTION OF BENEFIT-IN-KIND should be considered. I understand the Govern- ment uses it to some degree to control the 1.—Where an employer provides a child- amount of money it will spend on these grants. care facility directly to an employee, or pays However, it would work out being considerably the childcare costs of an employee to a third more efficient in the long term if we set it up this party, the provision or payment shall not way rather than the existing cumbersome grant constitute a taxable benefit-in-kind.”. applications process. The ethos of this recommendation is a simple one. I will not use this opportunity to go into the Deputy Willie O’Dea: The recommendation child care debate but this measure would be relates solely to tax relief for service charges. I worthwhile if it were studied properly and understand what the Senators have said and their adopted. I hope the Minister will move on this arguments for and against. I will communicate matter soon. I understand one of the reasons this their comments to the Ta´naiste. Relief for service has not been changed and the Minister is not in charges is currently available in respect of charges favour of it is that there is some concern that paid by a householder in the previous year sub- people might deliberately use the measure as a \ ject to a maximum claim of 400 per annum. way of avoiding tax. However, this should not Where an individual makes a claim in any year, negate the fact that a number of genuine the level of relief claimed is automatically employers provide such necessary facilities for allowed for all future years. The Revenue Com- employees owing to the unsocial nature of their missioners have gone that far in giving continuity. jobs. This could also apply to a husband and wife The Revenue Commissioners provide a number who are employed in the same area. Such a strict, of simplified ways for individuals to make their down-the-line approach by the Government is claim for this relief by text or on-line, or by phon- unhelpful. If the Minister were willing to re- ing or writing to their local tax office. examine this matter he would receive practical The recommendation proposes that tax relief support. This fairly simple issue does not justify a at source should generally be applied to service strict and aggressive approach from the Minister. charges paid by individuals. While the principle In this respect, we are not necessarily talking of relief at source is very effective in ensuring that about people who are trying to avoid tax. all qualifying individuals benefit from the relief, I am advised it would involve a cost on the Deputy Willie O’Dea: This matter was debated Exchequer from one point of view, namely that at some length on Committee and Report Stages individuals who are exempt from tax and who in the Da´il. As the Ta´naiste and Minister for Fin- would not be currently be availing of the relief ance indicated in those debates, the position is would in effect be getting a direct subsidy from that existing law already provides an exemption the Exchequer. In order for such a scheme to for an employee benefit-in-kind charge where operate successfully it would be necessary for the employers provide free or subsidised child care to ten local authorities and in excess of 400 private their employees. However, the exemption applies operators to all participate fully. It could not be only on certain conditions. I will not go through envisaged that a dual system of granting relief the conditions now but essentially, for the exemp- would apply. tion to apply, the employer must be involved in Service providers use a wide variety of methods the provision, management or funding of the to levy the service charges, including direct pay- facilities. ments, bin tags and service charges. There are Concerns were previously expressed that the considerable variations in how the level of service relief was not available to small and medium charges is determined. It would require amend- enterprises by virtue of their size. Where the indi- ment to some or all of those systems before the vidual SME might not be able to facilitate the 1999 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 2000

[Deputy Willie O’Dea.] Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation provision of child care facilities on its own, the No. 7: legislation allows the enterprise to join other In page 11, before section 1, to insert the fol- small employers in providing co-located facilities, lowing new section: contributing proportionately to costs and jointly providing the child care service. In this way, “PART 1 SMEs can address collectively the differences of BENEFIT-IN-KIND — TRAINING scale in the provision of facilities. Therefore the recommendation, in so far as it relates to direct 1.—Where an employer provides training to an employee, or pays the training costs of provision of child care, is addressed in existing an employee to a third party, the provision legislation. or payment shall not constitute a taxable In regard to the second proposal in the recom- benefit-in-kind.”. mendation, namely, that employees be given a benefit-in-kind exemption where their employer This recommendation concerns benefit-in-kind purchases child care for them from third parties, training. I am raising the issue following increases a core requirement of the current exemption is in redundancies and consequent unemployment. that employers must be involved in the provision, As the Minister is aware, there have been a spate management or funding of facilities. Apart from of closures throughout the country, unemploy- this, there are a number of difficulties, the first of ment is at its highest rate for eight years while which relates to cost. The second one is that redundancies levels are up substantially year on year. Some companies offer phased redundancy allowing employers to buy child care for packages over a period in a humane manner but, employees from third parties is unlikely to have unfortunately, that does not happen in all cases. any significant impact on the supply of additional Training programmes can be included in such child care places. Indeed, it could lead to some packages, especially for middle-aged people who displacement with employers buying up most of are concerned about not being re-employed. the convenient child care places for their Many training packages are provided by State employees, and with those not getting such a agencies such as FA´ S and Fa´ilte Ireland. Com- benefit being forced out to less convenient child panies can purchase training from such agencies care facilities. Third, there could be a knock-on or colleges. There is a wide range of training effect on the cost of child care as people being opportunities but where training is provided as subsidised might be prepared to pay even more part of a redundancy package, the employee is for the service. Certainly, those providing it prob- charged on a taxable benefit. Given the way the ably would be inclined to charge even more. economy is changing and the increasing volume Fourth, it would not be a legitimate policy objec- of people participating in lifelong learning, tive to provide tax relief for some taxpayers who including additional training, does the Minister have been lucky enough to be employed by an consider the tax code could be amended in this employer or group of employers that have regard? sourced child care places from the existing com- plement. Such a policy would be of no benefit to Deputy Willie O’Dea: The proposed recom- those without taxable income, for example. Fifth, mendation seeks to ensure training costs paid by ultimately, such a provision, if introduced, very an employer will not result in a benefit-in-kind likely would lead to pressure for full tax relief for charge applying to the employee. I am informed all those paying their own child care costs, with by the Revenue Commissioners that in circum- the associated costs being borne by the stances where an employer either refunds course Exchequer. Current Government policy is or examination fees on behalf of an employee or pays them directly on behalf of the employee, and designed to increase the supply of child care the course undertaken is relevant to the places through the creation of additional places, employer’s business, then a taxable benefit would not to use the resources to grant tax relief for not arise. In addition, my colleague, the Ta´naiste child care costs per se. and Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, has Over several years, the Government has sought introduced section 22 to provide a new exemption to support parents with children. These support to deal with the cost of retraining provided by an measures, introduced in tandem with significant employer as part of a redundancy package. There increases in child benefit payment, include the has been substantial debate about that in the early child care supplement scheme, the national other House and people have sought to have the child care investment programme, the supply of a provision amended. We will leave it as it is, further 50,000 child care places, the national child however, and see how it works out. care training strategy which aims to produce 17,000 additional child care training places by Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. 2010, increased maternity leave, and a tax exemp- tion for those who mind children in their own Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation homes. No. 8: In page 11, before section 1, to insert the fol- Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. lowing new section: 2001 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 2002

”PART 1 Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. FAILURE BY EMPLOYER TO Section 1 agreed to. REIMBURSE TRAVEL COSTS 1.—Where an employee incurs travel costs Section 2 agreed to. in connection with his or her employment, SECTION 3. which are not reimbursed by an employer, the employee may be afforded a relief on Senator Liam Twomey: I move recommend- such travel costs against his or her liability to ation No. 9: income tax in connection with the employment.”. In page 13, line 22*, column 3, to delete “\900” and substitute “\1,540”. This is a common sense recommendation but it probably needs to be redrafted. I will not press The amendment seeks an increase in the home the recommendation. Travel costs are not tax carer’s tax credit. This issue was debated at length deductible for a number of small businesses in the Lower House. It is Government policy to which do not derive any benefit from them. A encourage both persons in a household into recommendation such as this one, if redrafted, employment. Down through the years, tax reliefs could encourage greater use of public transport have been altered to ensure households with rather than using cars for business purposes. If double incomes are substantially better off than the Government were to adopt such a measure, I households with a single income. This gap has can understand why a certain cap or scale would widened significantly in recent years and needs to have to be put in place, and such travel expendi- be corrected. Often, the person who remains in ture also would have to be receipted. Some small the home chooses to do so in order to take care businesses cannot afford additional travel costs to of children. These families are making significant which tax deductions apply. If the Government sacrifices to rear their children and this should be were to consider providing relief in this area, it taken into account. would encourage the use of public transport. It is Government policy to encourage people to work and to alter the tax reliefs accordingly. Deputy Willie O’Dea: This issue has been However, that gap has grown too wide. We around for some time. When studying at the should afford more status to children’s rights than Institute of Chartered Public Accountants in we do to encouraging people to return to work. UCD I was taught that self-employed people may We need to rebalance this system and acceptance claim travel expenses incurred for the purposes of the recommendation would go part of the way of their businesses whereas employees may claim in doing so. only for travel undertaken in the performance of their duties, a somewhat narrower hoop to get Deputy Willie O’Dea: The effect of the recom- through. mendation would be to double the value of the 2007 home carer tax credit of \770. The cost of The difficulty that arises in this regard is cost. the measure, if implemented, would be approxi- We cannot provide a tax reduction in respect of mately \54 million in a full year and \37 million travel expenses for every employee. A person’s in 2008. The financial resources available to the travel to work is not travel undertaken in the per- Ta´naiste for the budget 2008 personal tax pack- formance of his or her duties. An employee age including, PRSI and health levy changes, required to travel as part of his or her duties may amounted to \582 million, not an inconsiderable claim tax relief on such expenses. To provide tax amount at a time when economic growth has relief on travel expenses for every employee in slowed considerably. the country — we now have 700,000 more people The aim of the income tax measures contained at work despite the redundancies referred to — in the budget is to use tax credits and bands to would result in enormous cost to the Exchequer. ensure low income earners remain outside the It would also mean some of the tax reliefs given standard tax band and average earners remain to the less well-off would have to be reversed or outside the higher rate band, as promised in the partially reversed. Government programme. The measures are also Senator Kelly will be aware of the salary sacri- focused on assisting the elderly, lone parents, fice scheme, whereby persons employed by a widowed persons and widowed parents, those large concern agree to sacrifice part of their salar- with a disability and carers. More than 54% of ies in lieu of public transport expenses, the cost the resources in the personal income tax package of which is not taxable. There are considerable were devoted to assisting those categories and the tax savings to be made in this regard provided the low paid. people concerned use public transport. I under- Senator Twomey will appreciate that the stand some private operators now come within resources available to the Ta´naiste in budget 2008 the remit of this scheme. As I understand it, the were more restricted than in previous years and deal must be for 12 months and, a person who choices had to be made in respect of their allo- cannot afford to purchase an annual ticket and cation. To provide for a doubling of the home tax gives a commitment to purchase a ticket monthly carer credit as recommended would mean is also covered by the scheme. increases in other income tax credits or reliefs 2003 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 2004

[Deputy Willie O’Dea.] The issues dealt with in these amendments have would have to be curtailed or not implemented. been also discussed at length in the Lower House. The Ta´naiste stated in an earlier debate on this As a result of some of the changes introduced at year’s Finance Bill that he is satisfied that budget budget time, people who are renting are being 2007 allocated the available resources in a fair disadvantaged when compared with first time and equitable manner. For this reason, I am buyers or those receiving mortgage relief. The unable to accept the recommendation. amendment seeks to rebalance the situation to The tax position of a married single income ensure those who cannot afford to buy even with couple does not change unless their income improvements in mortgage interest relief receive exceeds \44,400. According to the statistics avail- a fair crack of the whip. able, two out of three married taxpayers in the country do not reach that level of income and as Deputy Willie O’Dea: Most of the recom- such the discrimination of the difference applies mendations and amendments put forward today only to one-third of married one-income couples. and in the other House are, on the surface, quite The maximum differential between the married acceptable. Were I on the other side of the House one income couple and the married double I, too, could make as good a case in respect of income couple is \5,500 and as such the discrimi- some of them. However, the Minister must strike nation only kicks in when the married double a balance. Resources are not limitless. income couple’s earnings reach upwards of Section 6 of the Finance Bill implements the \70,800. The gap is not as great as is being budget announcements to improve the level of portrayed. rent relief. The section amends section 473 of the A number of the increases in allowances intro- 1997 Taxes Consolidation Act which grants duced in budgets 2007 and 2008 specifically reliefs to taxpayers for rent paid in respect of benefit married one income earners as opposed private rented accommodation which is their sole to anybody else. It is not true to say that the sole or main residence. The changes introduced by the motivation for individualisation was to force mar- Ta´naiste will increase the amount of rent relief ried women out to work. The previous tax system due to all categories of claimants.For single per- bore hard on the single income earner. As far as sons under the age of 55, the credit will be I can recall, ten years ago a single person entered increased from \1,800 to \2,000. For single per- the PAYE net at the equivalent of what is now sons over the age of 55, the credit will be \84 per week. That is extraordinary. We have increased from \3,600 to \4,000. For married and continued the practice of giving double tax relief widowed persons under the age of 55, the credit to married couples. We were required first to will be increased from \3,600 to \4,000 and for concentrate our necessary resources on married married and widowed persons over the age of 55, persons, be they two income or one income the credit will be increased from \7,200 to \8,000. couples, and then to change the structure and The recommendations proposed by the Senator bring more balance into the system. In an effort would increase the amounts due for single per- to further balance it, we introduced the home sons only. The tax code generally ensures a mar- carer credit. I accept this is the first increase in ried couple should get the same level of relief as this allowance since 2000 when it was first intro- two single persons and it is not proposed to duced. The Government is committed to doubl- depart from that principle on this occasion. The ing the home carer’s credit during its time in cost of the recommendation, if implemented as office rather than in one go. proposed, would be approximately \29 million in a full year. Over the past four budgets the Senator Liam Twomey: As the Minister and I Ta´naiste increased rent relief by 57% in total and differ only in respect of the timeframe, I will with- the cost of living increased by approximately 27% draw the recommendation. during that period. Therefore, the real value of rent relief increased by approximately 27% or Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. 28%. This change proposed to section 6 would increase rent relief by 11%, which would be quite Section 3 agreed to. significant. The Ta´naiste is satisfied that the increases in the relief provided for in the Bill will Sections 4 and 5 agreed to. help to reduce the burden of rent for tenants in the private rented sector, particularly in light of SECTION 6. reports showing recent increases in the supply of rental accommodation which should lead to An Cathaoirleach: Recommendations Nos. 10 reduced rent levels. and 11 are related and will be taken together by The changes in this Bill, in conjunction with agreement. other changes introduced by the Minister, Deputy Cowen, in the previous four Finance Bills are Senator Liam Twomey: I move recommend- generous. Owing to the excess in supply of rental ation No. 10: properties, there is a downward pressure on rents. In page 15, line 25, to delete “\2,000” and substitute “\3,000”. Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. 2005 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 2006

Recommendation No. 11 not moved. Government’s view is that to extend the same facilities to employees under the PAYE system Section 6 agreed to. as the self-employed enjoy, which on the surface might appear fair, would be to put the cart before Section 7 agreed to. the horse given that it has begun to examine the NEW SECTION. question of pensions, including private pensions. Any tax changes or amendments to the existing Senator Liam Twomey: I move recommend- tax structure relating to pensions will fit in with ation No. 12: the general scheme on pensions that will be decided on foot of the current deliberations. It is In page 15, before section 8, to insert the fol- somewhat premature to make such a change now, lowing new section: but I take the Senator’s point. I do not want to 8.—Part 30 of the Principal Act shall be anticipate the outcome of how this will evolve. amended by inserting a new section: I do not envisage that the current system, which provides that the self-employed have the “785.—A person who reaches retire- choice of converting their contributions into cash ment under a Defined Contribution Pen- but those in the PAYE system do not, will sur- sion scheme shall from 1st March 2008 not vive. However, it is somewhat premature to intro- be required to purchase an Annuity unless duce such a change in this year’s Finance Bill. they do not have an income equivalent to a Non-Contributory Pension prevailing at the time of retirement.”.”. Senator Liam Twomey: The are three groups involved, namely, the self-employed who own This issue was discussed on Second Stage yester- their pension funds, those in the public service day and in the Lower House. This amendment and Civil Service whose pensions are indexed to relates to pensions. People with private pensions their final pay, and employees in the PAYE who are forced to buy annuities on retirement system who do not own their pensions funds and will be under significant pressure in the next few whose benefits are subject to the whims of what years owing to changes in the stock market. The is happening on the stock market on the day they changes that have occurred, especially in the past retire. Furthermore, the latter group cannot defer 12 months, and which potentially will occur in the the date on which they take their pension benefit next few years have eroded and will erode signifi- or continue to work for a longer period. This cantly the value of such pensions. Changes need issue should be dealt with now because, as the to be made to protect the pension benefits of Minister is aware, it could be two to five years those employees who do not have the same before the recommendations from the discussions benefits as public servants whose pensions are on pensions ongoing at Government level are based on their incomes on the day they retire. implemented. Therefore, a significant number of Private pensions are based on the value of the people will be discriminated against in the mean- investment in the fund and policyholders are time unless this issue is given greater priority. If forced to buy annuities on retirement which may it is not be dealt with this year, it certainly should not retain their value. be given priority in next year’s Finance Bill.

Deputy Willie O’Dea: In principle, there is Deputy Willie O’Dea: I will convey the much merit in the Senator’s amendment. Many Senator’s view to the Ta´naiste. People in the annuities have fallen in value or are not as valu- public sector, including ourselves, are fortunate able when they come to be paid as was originally in that we have a defined contribution scheme. anticipated. This is because the yield from Government bonds has dropped considerably and The existing position covering many smaller con- there has also been considerable turmoil in the tributors in the PAYE system, whom I suspect international equity markets. the Senator has in mind, could be described as The other difficulty with annuities is that, gen- paternalistic. The Government is of the view that erally speaking, the benefit dies with the annui- if some employees are given the option of taking tant. Some people live long lives and other not as a lump sum on retirement rather than having the long as anticipated and I suppose the numbers certainty of an annuity, which will give them a balance each other out. Self-employed persons, certain guaranteed stream of income over a provided they can prove they have an income of period, they will be at the mercy of the uncer- \12,800, are entitled to convert their pension con- tainties of the stock market and financial advisers. tributions into cash, but that option is not open They would have to depend on their lump sum to employees in the PAYE system. There seems to supplement whatever provision they may have to be an inherent unfairness in that regard. from the State in the form of a contributory old However, I hasten to add that all the criticism age pension or retirement pension. They might of annuities is not correct. There are different not necessarily get the best investment advice. types of annuities and people can make different The self-employed who provide their private pen- arrangements by incurring extra costs or paying sions tend to have access to better advice and extra contributions. This issue is under discussion more high powered accountants. I agree with the in the context of the debate on pensions. The Senator that the Government’s view in terms of 2007 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money 13 March 2008. Bill): Committee and Remaining Stages 2008

[Deputy Willie O’Dea.] tax avoidance. The shares might as well be given those employees is a little paternalistic. I will con- tax-free. vey his views to the Ta´naiste. On the other hand, to encourage high-powered people in the software industry and so on to come Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. to Ireland, there are various stock option schemes for which tax relief is available provided one Sections 8 to 15, inclusive, agreed to. receives the prior approval of the Revenue Com- SECTION 16. missioners. The Revenue will give that approval if certain conditions are met. The stock options Question proposed: “That section 16 stand part schemes in place, although specific and requiring of the Bill.” the prior approval of the Revenue Commis- sioners, are also generous and wide-ranging. Senator Liam Twomey: I received interesting There is no need to allow people concoct their correspondence relating to this section concern- own schemes which may represent nothing other ing the way in which multinationals operate here. than undiluted tax avoidance. I do not know if the Minister also received such correspondence. It relates to the blocking of a Senator Liam Twomey: Will the Minister to loophole. The individual who raised this issue send me information on those schemes? with me said that if a multinational were recruiting people from aboard, one of the best Deputy Willie O’Dea: I will. ways to secure those with the highest talents for the industries we want to have here, namely, the Question put and agreed to. hi-tech industries, the fourth level of develop- ment, is to offer them stock options. That will Sections 17 to 23, inclusive, agreed to. effectively tie employees to a company and its NEW SECTIONS. success is as much in their interests as it is in the interests of other shareholders. This blocks to Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation some degree the option in this regard. I am talk- No. 13: ing about high powered jobs in research and development and marketing. This individual said In page 30, before section 24, but in Chapter that such employees will stay in other juris- 3, to insert the following new section: dictions where they can be given such stock 24.—Where a taxpayer claims relief based options as part of their incomes. on the construction of any premises, he or The Taoiseach and Ministers who travel to the she shall furnish to the Revenue Commis- United States next week will undoubtedly seek sioners sufficient information to demonstrate an assurance from the United States Government that he or she or any relevant contractor is that undocumented Irish living in that country complying with any relevant requirement will attain legal status. However, many such imposed by the Health and Safety Authority people who might be willing to return to Ireland, or by law in respect of the construction.”. having gained valuable experience in the United States, may be discouraged from doing so because The purpose of this simple recommendation is to the stock options available to them in that juris- ensure that persons claiming relief on the con- diction are not available here. This represents a struction of any premises must prove their com- disadvantage in attracting a considerable pool of pliance with all requirements and by-laws in talent back to the State. Is the Minister aware of regard to health and safety standards before the problem with this section? I can provide him benefitting from the relief. Several cases with with the information if he has not already health and safety implications have recently been received it. brought to the attention of this House. This relief was introduced for the benefit of these people Deputy Willie O’Dea: I did not receive the and the work they are doing. However, it is puz- specific letter to which Senator Twomey referred zling that there is no requirement to demonstrate but I am aware of what is being said and who is adherence to health and safety regulations and saying it. I disagree with the Senator’s argument. other by-laws. The current position is that where an employer gives an employee shares in the company, those Deputy Willie O’Dea: Getting the Revenue shares are taxable at their current market value. Commissioners involved in the area of health and What is happening in many cases is that compan- safety is a step too far. There is a bewildering ies are giving shares, securities or other types of array of health and safety regulations and the financial interest in the company to employees at Revenue has plenty to do. Moreover, it is not a certain market value, which is quite low, which qualified to assess such issues because its expert- these employees have an immediate right to ise lies elsewhere. transfer to a different type of security that is much higher in value. However, the tax applies Senator Alan Kelly: I refer to the docu- only on the lower value. This represents straight mentation and so on. 2009 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2010

Deputy Willie O’Dea: I appreciate that point Nevertheless, I am informed by the Revenue that but there are requirements in place regarding the a certain of money is incoming under this scheme, fulfilment of health and safety regulations. In where tenants hang onto the portion of the rent most cases to which this amendment would be and pay it over at the end of the year. applicable, there is already a requirement for a It is a difficult issue. The purpose of the pro- health and safety certificate. In addition, many vision is to protect the Exchequer. The infor- claimants for tax relief will have purchased the mation available to the Revenue Commissioners property involved from the developer and will is that if this requirement is removed, any or all have no responsibility or control in regard to the Irish landlords could set up offshore entities to construction itself. In other words, the property rent out their properties and there would be no was built before the claimant acquired an interest obligation on the tenant to disclose this situation in it. Therefore, there is not necessarily a direct or make returns to the Revenue Commissioners. link between claimants of tax relief and responsi- This would facilitate the avoidance of tax on the bility for the construction of the building which is part of landlords. Nevertheless, I accept it is not the subject of that relief. a satisfactory arrangement. The Minister is con- scious of this and he and the Revenue Commis- Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. sioners are working to see if a more acceptable system can be devised which still protects the Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation Exchequer. No. 14: Senator Alan Kelly: I accept the Minister’s In page 30, before section 24, to insert the points and I reiterate the need to review this ano- following new section: maly. I acknowledge his point on the possibility 24.—(1) Section 1041(1) of the Principal of facilitating a tax loophole. Act be amended by inserting the words “in 1 o’clock However, the current arrangement is respect of commercial property” in para- unfair and must be addressed. Now graph (a) after the words “Schedule D” and that there is an awareness of the implications, before the word “, or” perhaps it will be addressed in the next budget. (2) Section 1041(1) of the Principal Act to be amended by inserting the words “in Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. respect of commercial property” in para- graph (b) after the words “terms of the lea- Sections 24 and 25 agreed to. se“ and before the words “, but to a person other than the lessor.”.”. Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

This proposal is based on information and advice Request to Move Adjournment of the Seanad from Threshold. The effect of the recommend- under Standing Order 30. ation would be to restrict the liability of tenants of commercial property to account for the tax due An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from on rent paid to overseas landlords. Tenants Senator Alan Kelly regarding a motion that he should not have to account for the income tax wishes to raise under Standing Order 30. I ask the owed on rent paid to overseas landlords. Tax on Senator to give notice of the motion before I give such income would be covered by section 1034 of my ruling. the principal Act which provides for the liability of overseas residents for tax owed on income Senator Alan Kelly: I ask that the House be earned in the State. adjourned to discuss a specific and important We propose that the Revenue should adopt matter of public interest which has arisen sud- something similar to the non-residential landlord denly, namely, the subject matter of No. 19, declaration operated by the Inland Revenue in motion 35, on the Order Paper. the United Kingdom. This effectively places the bureaucratic burden of compliance not on the An Cathaoirleach: Having given careful con- tenant but on the non-residential landlord, as it sideration to the matter raised by Senator Kelly, should be. I cannot consider it to be a matter contemplated by Standing Order 30. I regret, therefore, that I Deputy Willie O’Dea: I understand the think- have had to rule it out of order. ing behind Senator Kelly’s amendment. Where a tenant is paying rent to a foreign landlord, even Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): if he or she is in receipt of rental allowance from Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed). the HSE, the law requires that the tenant must deduct tax at the standard rate from the rent paid SECTION 26. against the liability the foreign landlord will ulti- Senator Liam Twomey: I move recommend- mately have for tax. This imposes an onerous bur- ation No. 15: den on tenants. I am not sure how many tenants are paying rent to absentee landlords but I sus- In page 35, lines 30 and 31, to delete “of not pect few of them are aware of this provision. less than 20 in-patient beds”. 2011 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2012

[Senator Liam Twomey.] hospitals has a 70-bed minimum requirement in This recommendation relates to tax reliefs on respect of a private hospital providing outpatient inpatient palliative care beds. The Minister said services and accommodation on an overnight yesterday that there is a great deal of support for basis and a 40-bed minimum requirement if it this proposal within the sector. These things provides day care outpatient medical and surgical always need to be cleared up. There is some con- services only. As the Ta´naiste indicated during cern about the construction of co-located the Report Stage debate on this Bill in the Da´il, hospitals. In the past, tax relief has been given to there may be room for some flexibility in this people who already have significant assets. One area. This will be examined if and when specific had to have significant property and be earning difficulties arise. significant rent before one could avail of tax relief The first hurdle for any proposed development on one’s investments. Ordinary punters have is to obtain pre-approval from the HSE, with the been kept away from tax relief schemes which, consent of the Minister for Health and Children. in effect, are confined to those who are already The HSE must find that it is in line with national significantly wealthy. Who is entitled to invest in plans and needs assessment for the development palliative care units? Is the scheme open to every- of palliative care facilities in the State. This body or is it confined to big developers who wish requirement, which applies to developments to offset the tax they should be paying against which seek the benefit of capital allowances, has other rental income? Can doctors and nurses, for been included for a number of reasons, one of example, claim tax relief in this manner? As which is to ensure the facility fits in with the over- things stand, I suspect that many of these palli- all plan for the delivery of palliative care services ative care units will be built adjoining private in the State. We have discovered that there are nursing homes. Will the owners of such homes be gaps in such provision throughout the State. The able to claim tax relief? We need to ensure there requirement will also encourage private investors is no diminution of standards of care. It is often to create more palliative care places where they difficult to define “long-term” and “palliative” are badly needed. It has the full support of those care. We should clarify some of these issues. I involved in this sector. I understand it was put in assume the Health Information and Quality place at the suggestion of the hospice movement. Authority will be responsible for standards in the Almost anybody can invest in palliative care palliative care centres. It is very much being left units. However, EU regulations prohibit those to the HSE. Is this another form of the tax reliefs who are running such centres from investing in which were given to nursing homes? Is there this manner. I think that is the reason — I will much difference between the two types of tax check it for the Deputy. I can inform him that the relief? tax relief system that will apply to palliative care units is almost exactly the same as the system Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): used for nursing homes. I do not know if a mini- There is very little difference between them. The mum amount of beds is required to qualify for effect of this recommendation would be to nursing home relief. I am informed by officials remove the minimum bed capacity requirement from the Department of Finance that such devel- of 20 beds provided for in the proposed legis- opments must involve a minimum of 20 beds. lation, which introduces a scheme of capital Therefore, the same conditions apply to private allowances for specialist palliative care units. The nursing homes. minimum bed number of 20 was decided on fol- lowing discussions with the Department of Senator Liam Twomey: It is interesting that Health and Children on the scheme. The limit these palliative care units, which can be quite was inserted in the legislation to ensure that similar to nursing homes, will be built specifically developments seeking pre-approval, and the for such purposes. benefit of the capital allowances, will have sufficient capacity and critical mass to provide the Deputy Willie O’Dea: The allowance scheme is necessary palliative care services in the areas the same. The requirements to qualify for tax where such services are needed. It is important relief are the same. that any palliative care unit developed in the con- text of this legislation is feasible and sustainable Senator Liam Twomey: It has been suggested in terms of fitting into the existing plans and that all units which are developed should be big. needs assessment for the overall development of It might not be a bad thing if they are attached palliative care facilities in the State. to nursing homes. The palliative care report that Minimum capacity requirements are a common was published in 2004 stated that there was a feature of other schemes of capital allowances. dearth of palliative care beds in all regions. I am The scheme of allowances for qualifying mental worried that 20-bed stand-alone palliative care health centres, for example, has a minimum bed units might not be feasible outside large urban capacity requirement of 20. The same figure areas, where there are enough people to provide applies to the scheme for qualifying sports injur- a critical mass. The theory that underpins palli- ies clinics, which is being phased out at present. ative care throughout the country is that patients The scheme of capital allowances for private should receive such care as near as possible to 2013 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2014 their original homes, where their families and Deputy Willie O’Dea: It was to do with the tax friends may still live. It has now been proposed avoidance scheme. that small palliative care units should be attached to nursing homes. To what extent will the tax Senator Liam Twomey: Is it a scheme or is it relief that applies to small units—Idonot tax avoidance? necessarily refer to a 20-bed unit, as an eight-bed unit might be developed — be different from the Deputy Willie O’Dea: It is a particular scheme relief that applies to larger units? We should be that goes into operation. careful to bear in mind that there is no single best way of developing palliative care units. Large Senator Liam Twomey: Does it not apply to units could be confined to large urban areas. someone who inadvertently does not pay the Small units are probably more appropriate to right tax? places like County Wexford, which has just six palliative care beds at present. Deputy Willie O’Dea: No. It is about specific tax avoidance schemes. Deputy Willie O’Dea: I take the Senator’s point. When the Department of Finance was Senator Liam Twomey: Is it purely for setting drafting this legislation, it had to have regard to up schemes? Does it not apply to someone who, the advice of the Department of Health and Chil- for whatever reason, does not pay the proper dren and the HSE, which was that palliative care taxes? units must be sustainable. The Department of Health and Children and the HSE examined the Deputy Willie O’Dea: No. population figures and worked out how many beds should be in each unit if it is to qualify for Question put and agreed to. a capital allowance. If I were advising somebody who is developing a small palliative care unit, for Sections 43 to 56, inclusive, agreed to. example attached to a nursing home in a specific part of County Wexford in which 20 beds are not NEW SECTION warranted, I would suggest that he or she should link up with the management of a number of Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation other such units if he or she wishes to bring capi- No. 17: tal allowances into play. The accountants of those In page 88, before section 57, but in Part 2, who are developing palliative care units will to insert the following new section: advise them to work with other providers of such units. The provision introduced by the Minister “CHAPTER 1 for Finance, Deputy Cowen, whereby those who Importation of vehicles — VRT earn large incomes must pay a certain minimum 57.—A new vehicle registered in the State level of tax, will apply in this instance. These and subject to the emissions-based VRT allowances are being made available in that con- regime shall not in that respect be treated text. If somebody who is paying the minimum less favourably than a second hand vehicle level of tax required under the Minister’s restric- not already registered in the State which is tive provision wishes to invest in a palliative care brought into the State.”. unit, he or she will not get any extra tax relief. The limit that is in place will stay in place. I note that recommendation No. 18 has been ruled out of order as not relevant. There is a great Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. deal of confusion about the changes in respect of vehicle registration tax, VRT, as all public rep- Recommendation No. 16 not moved. resentatives are aware. People are asking me to work out the table and whether they should buy Section 26 agreed to. before the changeover. I am about to change my car when I leave the House today and have had Sections 27 to 41, inclusive, agreed to. to work it out myself. SECTION 42 Information is needed because there is little information available on-line and one has to Question proposed: “That section 42 stand part enter one’s calculations on-line in order to figure of the Bill.” out how it will work. That one cannot use a table on-line and has to use a calculator shows how Senator Liam Twomey: Yesterday the Minister complex it is. referred to figures of 10% and 20% in connection We believe there is an anomaly in the Bill in with capital gains but I cannot find the exact respect of those bringing into the State cars which section dealing with it. It concerned someone are not registered and those buying cars. If this writing to the Revenue Commissioners before- recommendation is not accepted, we hope the hand about a capital gains issue. matter will be addressed in some way forthwith. 2015 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2016

Senator Eoghan Harris: I welcome the Minister make the distinction between compliant business to the House. He is famous for his ability to think entities and the criminal classes. Our legislation on his feet. I am baffled by the procedure and do and the information on legislation is not set in not know where what I want to say fits into the stone. It is a matter of interpretation—— recommendations but I crave the Minister’s indulgence to make a few points that are part of An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Does the Senator the wider hinterland of the Bill. These concern have a specific recommendation to make? the simplification of information about the tax code. The Taoiseach’s financial affairs compared Senator Eoghan Harris: I have a recommend- with mine are pristine and were an accountant’s ation. Tax simplification is vital for small busi- dream. Like most members of the public I am as nesses and the current tax treatment for private terrified of a tax audit as Americans famously individuals and for the small business sector are. It is said that Americans would rather be places a significant burden on them in making mugged than tax audited. Most PAYE workers their returns. I ask the Minister to consider find the tax code a nightmare and a morass. VRT extending tax relief at source and a systematic is only symbolic of this. The result is that many public information campaign in respect of tax. I PAYE workers are overtaxed because they do thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the Minister not understand what is going on. Time and again for their indulgence. I meet fellow workers in my industry who are not being taxed correctly and are usually taxed at a Deputy Willie O’Dea: I know Senator Kelly loss to themselves because they do not under- lives near my constituency and is working very stand the system. The Minister needs to take on hard there. the question of clarifying and simplifying infor- mation on all aspects of the tax system, not just Senator Alan Kelly: I thank the Minister for VRT. the compliment. Many of my fellow workers feel it is too much hassle and too difficult to work their way through Deputy Willie O’Dea: As one who tries to do the system to bother lodging a claim to get the my own small bit in my constituency I share his money back. Health expenses are a prime view about the complexity of the information on example of this. It should be possible for dentists, this matter and intend to speak to the Minister doctors and pharmacists to give relief at source. for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Gormley about it. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: We are dealing with In respect of recommendation No. 17, vehicle recommendation No. 17. registration tax is charged at the time of regis- tration in the State. Under the revised system, the Senator Eoghan Harris: I know that and I VRT rate applicable to new cars and used asked for some latitude. imported cars registered on or after 1 July 2008

will be determined by the CO2 emission rating of An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I can let the Senator the car and no longer will be related to engine in at a different section if he so wishes. size. In so far as used cars imported after 1 July

are concerned the CO2 emissions of a car Senator Eoghan Harris: The Minister indicated presented for registration in the State will have that he is willing to deal with this if the Leas- to be declared to the Revenue Commissioners on Chathaoirleach will give me a few minutes. form VRT4 at the time of registration by the per- son registering the vehicle. The declaration will Senator Alan Kelly: One law for one Senator be required to be supported by documentary evi- and another for us. dence of the CO2 emissions of the car. Acceptable documentary evidence of the CO2 emissions will Senator Eoghan Harris: I know the Minister include a certificate of conformity for the part- takes this seriously. I am concerned that Revenue icular model. seems to press most strongly on those who are Since 2001 EU law requires CO2 emissions lev- tax compliant because it is easier to deal with els to be cited in this document or a previous them. Those who are not tax compliant are more registration certificate, a certificate from the trouble than they are worth. manufacturer or distributor or an organisation The Revenue Commissioners need powers and approved by the Revenue Commissioners to I would give the Criminal Assets Bureau all the provide such certificates. Where a certificate of powers it needs to track down criminals. I am measurement concerning CO2 levels for a vehicle fully in favour of giving the utmost Eliot Ness is not available and does not satisfy the Revenue powers to the Revenue Commissioners in respect Commissioners, VRT will be charged on regis- of criminals. In respect of the public, however, tration at the maximum rate allowable, 36%. the Revenue Commissioners need to change their Such a VRT rating would be open to an appeal culture and take a more liberal and compassion- through the VRT appeal system. Second-hand ate view of the genuine difficulties most people imported vehicles therefore will be subject to a have in understanding the tax code. We should similarly rigorous evaluation of carbon dioxide 2017 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2018 emissions as subsequent classification for the pur- at source for drugs supplied. They are working on poses of VRT as a new vehicle presented for a system for introducing medical relief at source registration in the State and will not be treated and also service charges. I can assure the House more favourably than a new car. The Society of that efforts are ongoing in this regard. They are the Irish Motor Industry approached me in state publicising their more user-friendly services. of great concern when this scheme was first They are easier to communicate with and are pro- announced and this was their main bone of con- viding as much tax relief at source as is possible tention. However, they are now satisfied with the and this will continue. Minister’s proposals on VRT that there will not be discrimination as between new and second- Senator Liam Twomey: I wish to comment on hand cars. The change in the motor taxation Senator Harris’s contribution. I have been the system will be a new day’s work and we will need subject of a Revenue audit and have had exten- to look anew. sive dealings with them. Whereas one is never I take the point made by Senator Harris about happy with the outcome, they have always been information. Dealing with the Revenue or visiting very easy to deal with. a tax office is now a pleasure compared to when I started in the politics business more years ago Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. than I care to recall or relate. The Revenue Com- missioners are continuing to do everything to Recommendation No. 18 not moved. make the tax system more user-friendly. They have introduced information lines for the various Sections Nos. 57 to 81, inclusive, agreed to. tax headings such as CAT and PAYE. They have NEW SECTION. introduced a facility for completing tax returns on-line and tax information may be obtained An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Recommendations through a mobile phone text service or from any Nos. 19 and 21 are related and may be discussed one of the 600 friendly counter staff. Every effort together by agreement. is made to publicise tax reliefs. I have fought various referenda campaigns on Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation behalf of various Governments. It seems the No. 19: more information made available to people the more confused they become. The one complaint In page 108, before section 82, to insert the on the doorsteps up to the date of the referendum following new section: will be, “Sure, I know nothing about this. Nobody is telling me anything about it”. “PART 3 The Revenue Commissioners enclose with the VAT ON DEFIBRILLATORS annual tax-free allowance certificate a user- friendly and easy to read document which high- 82.—Any defibrillator sold or supplied after lights all the allowances to which a taxpayer is the passing of this Act shall be exempt from entitled. I take the Senator’s point that it would VAT.”. be preferable if more allowances could be claimed at source so that people would be I regard this recommendation as very guaranteed to receive them. In so far as is pos- important but it also bothers me the most. It sible, the Revenue Commissioners have systems relates to the exemption of VAT on defi- in place to claim tax relief at source. For example, brillators. I acknowledge the cross-party agree- if a person can prove he or she is over 65 years ment with the spirit of this recommendation. of age with an income not exceeding the exemp- There should be no VAT charged on defi- tion limit the bank or financial institution is per- brillators or at least a reduction in the rate of mitted to exempt their account from DIRT. VAT charged. In my view VAT should not be Mortgage interest can be claimed at source. charged on defibrillators. The charge is a disgrace There are difficulties with claiming certain and is ridiculous in this day and age, especially reliefs such as medical expenses because there are with the publicity afforded to sudden death syn- so many providers of medical services who cost drome. Everybody must know somebody who and bill in different ways. The same applies to could have benefited from the use of a defi- relief on refuse charges, a point which has been brillator but who is no longer with us. raised in the House. Banks and financial insti- tutions are experienced in dealing with mort- Sports organisations and voluntary groups are gages, tax and documents but waste companies increasingly attempting to purchase defibrillators are in the business of processing waste rather in order to help those who suffer from cardiac than dealing with financial transactions and arrest. Sporting organisations correctly believe documents. they are particularly in need of these devices in The Revenue Commissioners can use infor- light of the publicity regarding the prevalence of mation data on date of birth to apply age-related sudden death syndrome. It is a great concern that relief at source. They have an arrangement with many of these young people must fund-raise to the Irish Pharmaceutical Union to provide relief buy these defibrillators with the additional bur- 2019 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2020 den of this VAT rate of 21%. A defibrillator is grant to the value of the VAT, which is the quick- hardly a luxury item. est way around this, for the issue to be dealt with.

More than 5,000 people die each year in Deputy Willie O’Dea: While I appreciate the Ireland from sudden cardiac death. Communities health concerns that form the basis of this recom- and groups all over Ireland are fund-raising to mendation, it should be understood that in provide equipment and training on defibrillators. matters relating to the VAT rating of goods and Removal of the VAT burden will greatly encour- services, the Ta´naiste and the Government are age these people in their self-help campaigns. constrained by the requirements of EU VAT law Research has shown that the provision of this — with which Irish VAT law must comply. In this equipment can greatly reduce deaths across all regard, the rate of VAT that applies to a part- age groups. Defibrillators allow early inter- icular good or service depends on its nature, and vention which is vital to survival. The faster basic not on the status of the consumer. Accordingly, defibrillation can be provided to a patient who there is no provision in EU VAT law that permits has suffered cardiac arrest, the better their the removal or reduction of VAT based on the chances of survival. social or economic status of the consumer. As regards the VAT rate that applies to defi- I am not the first person to raise this issue and brillators, under the VAT directive, member I probably will not be the last. At a recent meet- states must maintain the zero rates on goods and ing in Roscrea in my constituency I listened with services which were in place on 1 January 1991, incredulity to a local activist describing the but cannot extend the zero rate to new goods or amount of VAT payable in order to provide these services. The zero rate cannot, therefore, be devices to a number of sporting and community applied to defibrillators, which are subject to the organisations across the town. standard rate. In addition, member states may only apply the reduced VAT rate to those goods The Minister will say this issue cannot be and services which are listed under annex 3 of the addressed because of EU rules. I have heard this VAT directive. While annex 3 includes the supply excuse before on a number of occasions. I ask the of medical equipment for the exclusive personal Minister to convey my concerns to the Minister use of a disabled person, it does not include defi- for Finance who has been innovative in using brillators for general use. The reduced rate there- mechanisms in the past in order to facilitate cer- fore cannot be applied to the supply of defi- tain tax schemes and grants. It is a big “if” but if brillators. Exemptions from VAT are also this regulation cannot be changed because of EU governed by EU law and under the VAT law, I ask him to consider some form of mechan- directive we are not permitted to exempt the sup- ism to allow some grant or tax rebate to organis- ply of defibrillators. ations in order to counteract this VAT rate of Senator Twomey makes the point that if some- 21% being charged on these devices. This would body, such as a doctor, pays VAT on a defi- be a welcome move and a practical solution. We brillator for use in his or her business, he or she are talking about saving lives and especially the can claim that as an input against the VAT bill. lives of young people. I hope for the Minister’s On the other hand, charities, community organis- support. ations etc. are exempt from VAT and therefore have no way of claiming back the VAT they pay Senator Eoghan Harris: Again, this is a VAT- on a defibrillator. It is open to any member state related issue. All charges between VAT-regis- to provide a grant equivalent to the amount of tered entities should be free of VAT on the pro- VAT paid — and for repayment to made in that duction of the requisite certificate. This is not dis- way. That is an option. Other countries are not similar to what happens in many other European doing it, however. It has been done once here as countries. Utility charges is a good example. This regards the Band Aid concert, when CDs were would do much to help prime the pump that is so sold. As VAT on those CDs was 21%, the State badly needed at this time of economic correction. agreed, as a once-off initiative, to repay a grant I ask the Minister to consider the wider impli- roughly equivalent to the amount of VAT paid. cations. I realise he does not have to answer in I believe the British Government did something terms of this particular amendment, but I should similar. It is an option. Having said that, the be obliged to hear his views on the general oper- Government is already investing a great deal of ation of VAT between VAT-registered entities. money, both directly and indirectly, in charitable organisations — as regards allowing the offset of Senator Liam Twomey: There is a defibrillator tax for donations to charities. Charities are well in the boot of every Garda vehicle, in every fire looked after, too, under the stamp duty regime, brigade and in most doctors’ surgeries, including as are community associations. I could go through my own — and this is tax deductible as a practice all the various outlays, but I know Senators are expense. That basically leaves community and aware, generally, what is being done for charities sporting organisations who are seeking this VAT and community organisations. exemption. It is well within the financial par- With regard to the specific suggestion of pro- ameters of Government for the HSE to give a viding a grant for people who cannot claim relief 2021 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2022 against their VAT, I certainly bring to the notice practicable viewpoint, the Minister will probably of the Minister for Finance what has been said by say “No”, but what is the Government’s current Senators Harris, Kelly and Twomey. thinking in this regard, so that charities, in most cases, may avoid VAT on the work they do? Senator Alan Kelly: I thank the Minister. This is something simple for which the Government Deputy Willie O’Dea: This recommendation will get quite an amount of support, and kudos, has been proposed on many occasions over the if it can introduce a practical step in this regard. past number of years. There are a number of Communities know their requirements. In many reasons why the proposal could not be resolved cases they seek to get defibrillators on the basis through the Finance Bill process, the primary one of something that has happened or been narrowly being that such VAT refund schemes are no avoided, perhaps, which spurs them on, etc. longer possible under EU VAT law. Further to People know their communities and their own this, the real question is whether VAT refunds requirements. I do not believe people will over- are the most appropriate intervention in the first stretch themselves in the sense that they will look place, when more targeted grants, based on for too many. There is no issue as regards the public policy priorities, would be a more effective Exchequer. use of Exchequer funds. The suggestion by Senator Twomey and the In terms of legislation, the position is that the Minister that some form of grant mechanism — VAT regime and rating of goods and services is as instanced in the precedent outlined — might subject to the requirements of EU VAT law — be put in place is welcome. I believe there would with which Irish VAT law must comply. Under be unanimity on that and if it were to be put for- EU law it is not possible to remove or reduce the ward everybody would support it. I suggest the Minister, Deputy O’Dea, emphasises this when VAT rate for a particular customer — in this case speaking to his colleague, the Minister for charities, or indeed, educational institutions — as Finance. the rate of VAT that applies to a particular good or service is determined by its nature and not by Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. the category of customer. It would therefore not be possible to remove or reduce VAT paid by Section 82 agreed to. charities. Furthermore, under Council Directive 2006/112/EC — charities — bodies supplying edu- NEW SECTION. cational services and non-profit groups engaged An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Recommendation in non-commercial activity are exempt. This No. 20 relates to a new section and is in the means they do not charge VAT on the services names of Senators Alan Kelly, , they provide and cannot, therefore, recover VAT Michael McCarthy, Brendan Ryan, Phil Prender- incurred on goods and services they might pur- gast and Dominic Halligan. chase. Essentially only VAT-registered busi- nesses which charge VAT are able to recover Senator Alan Kelly: I move recommendation VAT. No. 20: With regard to the question whether charities could be refunded by the introduction of a minis- In page 108, before section 83, to insert the terial order, the position is that these have been following new section: used in a limited way in the past to provide 83.—The Minister may make regulations refunds of VAT on certain aids and appliances providing relief in respect of VAT for regis- for the disabled, and on medical equipment tered charities provided that such charities donated voluntarily to hospitals, equipment and comply with such requirements including buildings used by water rescue organisations and requirements as to accountability and finan- humanitarian goods for export. These orders are cial transparency as may be prescribed.”. focused and designed to target specific circum- This proposes the Minister makes regulations stances. However, under EU law, it is no longer providing for relief in respect of VAT for regis- possible to introduce new schemes within the tered charities, provided they comply with such VAT Act 1972, to relieve charities or other regulations including requirements as to account- exempt bodies from the obligation to pay VAT ability and financial transparency, as may be pre- on goods and services which they provide. scribed. The Minister has hit on this earlier today. EU law precludes removing or refunding the I am looking at how charities may be exempted VAT which charities and exempt bodies are from VAT. A number of specific reliefs relate to required to pay under the taxation system. This charitable activities. I have seen them outlined in view is also held by the European Commission, leaflets that are available from the Revenue which has stated that while charities cannot be Commissioners. refunded through the VAT system, there is Would it not be a good amendment, that once nothing to prevent national Governments paying such organisations had satisfied the requirements charities a subsidy to compensate them for the as regards accountability and financial trans- irrecoverable VAT which they have incurred, parency, they be exempt from VAT? From a provided that State aid rules are observed. 2023 Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): 13 March 2008. Committee and Remaining Stages (Resumed) 2024

[Deputy Willie O’Dea.] marginal rate which, for an individual donor, It is interesting to note that the Irish Charities could be as high as 41%. In the case of donations Tax Reform Group, ICTRG, understands that in the PAYE sector, the relief is given directly to charities cannot be granted VAT refunds through the charities. the tax system. However, it is seeking the intro- Even if funds were available for grant-aiding duction of a grant or subsidy in lieu of VAT chari- charities and other voluntary groups, I am not ties must pay on business inputs. Given that sure the most appropriate use of the funds would Exchequer funding is made available to very involve relieving charities of the VAT paid on many charitable organisations, this is in effect inputs as opposed to grant-aiding their activities already happening. The 140 bodies represented using other criteria, as has already been done. It by the ICTRG already acknowledge that they is the role of the Government and the Oireachtas receive \8.6 million in funding either directly or to decide on the distribution of tax revenue for indirectly from the Exchequer. However, there the public good and we should not lightly give up are more than 7,000 charities registered with the our role in this case. Since the mechanism that Revenue Commissioners. A recent report carried would have to be used is a grant scheme, we out by Trinity College on behalf of charities would be agreeing in advance to give grant aid to estimates that their annual spend is approxi- a set of bodies based not an understanding of mately \2.5 billion per annum. If even a small public policy priorities or the efficiency of the part of this sum were subject to a VAT refund, bodies concerned but on their spending profiles. the cost would be astronomical. The proposed recommendation does not conform The ICTRG will argue that it represents the with this principle and therefore the grant scheme largest charities but that is not the case as many in question would be most unusual. health, educational and sports organisations are also registered with the Revenue Commissioners Recommendation, by leave, withdrawn. as charitable or not-for-profit organisations. Therefore, the introduction of a grant in lieu of Section 83 agreed to. VAT paid by registered charities would undoubt- edly lead to other exempt bodies, such as schools, Sections 84 to 106, inclusive, agreed to. hospitals and sports organisations, many of which Recommendation No. 21 not moved. are already registered as charities, seeking to benefit from such a refund scheme. These exempt Section 107 agreed to. bodies are already receiving considerable Exchequer funding. Sections 108 to 121, inclusive, agreed to. While I appreciate the arguments that have been made on the refund scheme in Denmark, SECTION 122. the only EU member state to operate such a scheme, it should be understood that Denmark Question proposed: “That section 122 stand only operates a single VAT rate for all goods and part of the Bill.” services of 25%. This is the highest in Europe. Ireland operates a far broader regime and has Senator Liam Twomey: On the section on three VAT rates — 0%, 13.5% and 21%. The stamp duty, were concerns raised with the Mini- grant scheme in Denmark is limited to a number ster for Finance regarding abuses of the first-time of charities that benefit from the tax relief on buyer’s grant? donation scheme. However, the Danish donation scheme is far more limited than ours, with almost Deputy Willie O’Dea: Yes. As I indicated yes- half the number of charities able to avail of it. In terday, I will obtain the details for the Senator. Denmark, educational institutions do not qualify for charitable status, which would preclude them Question put and agreed to. from receiving any tax relief. While just one country might be offering a Sections 123 to 144, inclusive, agreed to. VAT refund scheme, this must be considered in Schedules 1 to 8, inclusive, agreed to. the context of the overall environment in which such schemes operate. In this regard, it should be Title agreed to. noted that our tax code currently provides exemptions for charities from income tax, DIRT, Bill reported without recommendation and corporation tax, capital gains tax, capital acquis- received for final consideration. itions tax, stamp duty and dividend withholding tax. Moreover, charities also benefit significantly Question proposed: “That the Bill be returned from the uniform scheme of tax relief for to the Da´il.” donations, which was introduced in the Finance Act 2001 and which, for the first time, allowed Minister for Defence (Deputy Willie O’Dea): I tax relief generally without any upper limit on thank Senators on both sides of the House for personal donations to domestic charities and their very thoughtful and thought-provoking con- other approved bodies. The relief is based on the tributions, both today and yesterday. I will con- 2025 Schools Building 13 March 2008. Projects 2026 vey the arguments, some of which were very well Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, made, to my colleague the Minister for Finance. published lists of all school buildings, which included priority ratings and indicative dates of Senator Liam Twomey: I thank the Minister for construction. This brought a much needed coming to the House and for giving of his time. I measure of transparency and openness of infor- thank all his officials for all the work they do in mation into the process which, up to then, had preparing this Bill every year. I also thank all been secretive. In general, school communities Members of the House and the Seanad staff for were of the opinion that the system was fair. bearing with us. When Deputy Mary Hanafin became Minister for Education and Science, she abandoned this Senator Alan Kelly: I thank the Minister for his system and, since taking office, has not published time and his officials for all the work they have a comprehensive picture of the building prog- put in. I also thank the Minister for his compli- ramme. Many schools have been waiting for years ments. If there is one thing the Minister can bring for an indication of when their projects will com- back to the Minister for Finance it is the proposal mence. No lists are available and there is a major concerning defibrillators and I would very much lack of transparency in the issue, which leads to appreciate it if he did so. accusations of political interference within the schools building programme. Senator Marc MacSharry: I thank the Minister The neglect shown to the issue of school build- for coming to the House and congratulate the ings by this Government is something which we Ta´naiste and Minister for Finance on the Bill. I now are seeing all too often. Schools in this coun- especially congratulate his officials who, as try have entered into financial crisis and this is Senator Twomey said, put in a great deal of work plain to see. Soaring water charges, under- each year in the preparation of the Bill. resourced classes, overcrowded classrooms and the underinvestment in education by the Twenty- Senator Eoghan Harris: I congratulate the six Counties Government, most especially in the Minister on the mastery of his colleague’s brief primary sector, are truly appalling. and on his latitude in answering questions with I received an e-mail yesterday from a mother his usual liberal effectiveness. whose three children attend the Holy Rosary Question put and agreed to. School in Oldcourt, Dublin. This school is a prime example of the incompetence of the Government to provide assistance to schools most in need. The Finance Bill 2008 (Certified Money Bill): Motion mother’s eldest child attends class in a prefab for Earlier Signature. which is freezing every morning and unbearably Senator Donie Cassidy: I move: hot every afternoon. The child constantly suffers That pursuant to subsection 2° of section 2 of from a cold because of this. The home-school liai- Article 25 of the Constitution, Seanad E´ ireann son teacher has a small desk in one of the corri- concurs with the Government in a request to dors of the school due to lack of space. Most the Commission constituted as provided in worryingly, reports were made last week of there section 2 of Article 14 of the Constitution to being rats in the school and of a child stepping on sign the Finance Bill 2008 on a date which is one of them. This seems to be a worrying, all too earlier than the fifth day after the date on frequent trend in many schools. which the Bill shall have been presented to it. In my constituency in Donegal there is a school, Scoil Mhuire in Creeslough, in which chil- dren must sit three to a seat and, in some Question put and agreed to. classrooms, they sit on the floor because of the simple fact that there is just not enough space for An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed desks. The classrooms and their size are described to sit again? as unsuitable for many of today’s subjects such as practical science. This school desperately needs Senator Marc MacSharry: At 2.30 p.m. next extra space, more classrooms and a full upgrading Wednesday, 19 March. of the existing facilities. A spokesperson for the school’s board of management has stated that it Adjournment Matters. is more than three years since it first submitted its proposals for improvements to the Minister for ———— Education and Science but, officially, they have heard nothing in return. They are left in the dark. Schools Building Projects. This is a completely unfair and unacceptable way Senator Pearse Doherty: The matter I have to treat pupils, teachers and parents. placed on the Adjournment is the need for the These incidences are not isolated and there are Minister for Education and Science to publish a many other schools in such a position. For complete list of all school projects in the building example, the parents of pupils at Gortahork programme together with indicative times for national school, also in my constituency, were completion. The predecessor of the Minister for forced to withdraw their pupils because of its con- 2027 Schools Building 13 March 2008. Projects 2028

[Senator Pearse Doherty.] I think you should hang your head in shame dition. They were promised a new school six For all your excuses have been so lame. years ago but they still await the commencement of the project. Glenswilly national school, which There is one other thing that I should point has been seeking an extension since 1992, has out to you, called itself “Seeking a New Extension since 1992 Glenswilly National School”, as an example of In a few years’ time we’ll be voters too. their frustration with the Department and the I think I’ll be a politician when I grow up, schools building programme. In Ballinamore, County Leitrim, the Govern- So my party will drive Fianna Fa´il into the ment committed in 2001 to a new comprehensive muck. school but, seven years on, pupils, parents and teachers are still waiting. When the Minister vis- I’ll make sure every child has a building for ited the town recently, she slated the parents and their school, board of management for contacting her Depart- That’s how my party will rule. ment daily. What are parents, teachers and pupils to do if they are still waiting after seven years So come on Bertie, give us our school! and have to travel in the pouring rain between That is a poem by an 11 year old child. It shows classrooms for their education? It is terrible in the frustration felt by the children of this nation this day and age. because they have to be taught in such conditions. Another example is a school in Galway which I ask the Minister to address my central issue by had to import smaller desks because normal-sized letting us know when the schools will be built and desks would not fit owing to the number of pupils giving us an indicative timeframe. Take schools in the school. There is a need to produce a list out of the dark and publish the list, as the prede- but, with no list available as to times of com- cessor of the current Minister for Education and pletion of all school projects in the building prog- Science did, to introduce some accountability into ramme, these and countless other parents, pupils the school programme. and teachers are completely in the dark and have no idea when improvements will be made. Minister of State at the Department of Edu- Does the Minister of State think that any child cation and Science (Deputy Michael Ahern): On deserves this ordeal on a daily basis? Does he behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Edu- think that any child deserves to sit in a freezing cation and Science, Deputy Mary Hanafin, I am cold classroom day in, day out, where they poten- glad to be given the opportunity to outline the tially could pick up a lethal disease from rat urine position on the schools building and modernis- should they come into contact with it? These ation programme. schools and countless others throughout the This year, more than \586 million is being pro- country need answers. For too long they have vided by the Government for school buildings. been kept in the dark, for too long they have This will allow significant progress to be made on been left waiting and wondering, and for too long new schools, extensions and refurbishments pupils have attended class in conditions not befit- throughout the country. Commitments arising ting an animal. from contractual commitments entered into dur- I will finish by reading a poem sent to me by ing 2007 and in earlier years have a first call on an 11 year old student in her frustration at what the capital allocation for 2008. These commit- was happening. She has now left primary edu- ments include 67 large-scale projects that were cation but she wrote the following to the under construction during 2007 and most of these Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern: will reach practical completion during the course Dear Bertie Ahern of 2008. More than 100 permanent accom- modation and small school scheme projects com- I’m sending you this letter for your concern. menced during 2007 and all these projects will be You have ignored us time after time completed in 2008. Commitments also arise on other programmes that commenced during 2007. As if we had committed a serious crime. These include commitments given in respect of All we want is a proper building for our contingency and emergency works, furniture and school. equipment applications and outstanding balances due on the 2007 summer works scheme. How can this be so impossible for you to do? At the beginning of February, the Minister Our school is better than the best, announced the large-scale building projects approved to commence construction this year. Why can’t we just have a proper building like These projects will deliver 13 new the rest? 2 o’clock schools and two extensions at primary level, two new schools and Next year I’ll be leaving primary school for one extension at post-primary level and a further good 30 new primary schools in rapidly developing And in a proper building I have never stood. areas, planned to be in place by next September. 2029 Health 13 March 2008. Services 2030

These schools are the first phase of the projects reported, but acknowledged that many more that are due to go to construction in 2008. The were. I question whether the information is avail- next announcement regarding projects to proceed able. Is the failure to produce a list and the keep- to construction will occur after Easter. The Mini- ing of schools in the dark a way of hiding the ster intends to make further announcements Minister’s lack of accountability? regarding projects that will be advanced through the architectural planning process during the Deputy Michael Ahern: I spent 26 years deal- course of the year as the school building prog- ing with problems in school and other areas and ramme is rolled out. believe the Senators comments are hyperbole in The Minister also confirmed in the February the extreme. announcement that the 254 projects previously announced under the permanent accommodation Health Services. and small schools schemes that had not at that time commenced construction, should position Senator Alan Kelly: I wish to raise the matter themselves to go on site and complete their works of the need for the Minister for Health and Chil- during the course of 2008. Throughout the year dren to outline if the Government is fully com- the Department will also fund a number of other mitted to providing funding for the operation of important elements of the schools building and the CT scanner that has been lying idle in Nenagh modernisation programme. These include appli- General Hospital for almost a year and to provide cations received from schools relating to emerg- an indicative date for the commencement of its encies that arise such as roof damage and appli- use. cations for temporary accommodation. This is one of the biggest farces of the HSE, Rather than publishing one large list, the and all involved in politics in my part of the coun- Department of Education and Science manages try accept it is a farce. The CT scanner in Nenagh the schools building programme on a rolling hospital was announced with great fanfare in basis, with announcements made throughout the April 2006 by two of the Minister of State’s col- year. The number of projects on the programme leagues, including the current Minister of State at and their place on it changes constantly. It would, the Department of Health and Children, Deputy therefore, not be appropriate to publish one large Ma´ire Hoctor. This new scanner would mean list. The approach adopted by the Department, approximately 500 patients would not have to be with progress being made all the time, is far pref- ferried to Limerick for scans. It is now March erable to one big bang announcement as it 2008 and the CT scanner is still sitting in its own ensures that it helps to create a pipeline so that unit in Nenagh hospital with the plastic on it. It there is a smooth flow of projects through all has never been used. stages. The work on the CT unit was completed in I assure the Senator that the Minister and her June 2007, but there has been no movement Department are committed to providing since. I visited the hospital with my party leader sufficient school places in developing areas and to Deputy Eamon Gilmore. The issue, however, is delivering improvements in the quality of existing such an embarrassment to the HSE that it would primary and post-primary school accommodation not permit us to view the new unit, despite the throughout the country. Under the rolling basis fact we had journalists and photographers with methodology, the Minister will announce further us. We were barred from seeing the new CT scan- details during the year in the context of priority ner in case we photographed. I pointed out that and budget. I could download a similar photograph from the Internet and use it, but that made no difference. Senator Pearse Doherty: The Minister says it is The CT scanner is an embarrassment to the preferable to keep pupils, parents and boards of hospital. management in the dark and not publish a large This issue has a wider impact than the matter list. This is only preferable for the Department of whether scans are provided in the hospital. It and not for parents, teachers and pupils. The has a significant impact on the service being pro- Minister of State must know of the frustration vided by the ambulance service, a matter I have among the community in terms of the schools raised in the House previously. The ambulance building programme. Nobody expects every service is stretched for a number of reasons. It is school will be modernised tomorrow morning or now down to one stretcher and capacity is halved. next week, but we need an indication to be given The same ambulance service, which can operate to communities throughout the State as to where only one ambulance in the evening, ferries people they are on the list and when they will be pro- in and out to Limerick. If there is an emergency vided with a timeframe for the work. on the N7 or nearby, the ambulance may be doing I do not believe the Minister knows the infor- the job of ferrying people to Limerick for scans, mation. When my party asked a parliamentary despite the fact there is a scanner lying idle in the question with regard to the number of prefabs hospital to which the ambulance is attached. This being used as classrooms, she did not have that is ridiculous. information. When we asked how many schools I understand from the HSE that when the man- were rat infested, she could say that six were ager of Nenagh hospital applied to get eleven 2031 Health 13 March 2008. Services 2032

[Senator Alan Kelly.] is due in April. It is an indication of the lack of people to run the unit, he was told Bantry joined-up thinking if it is provided later. hospital could do it with 6.5 people. I understand The situation is an embarrassment for the HSE, the hospital in Ennis got approval through the the Government and local government represen- Comhairle for 6.5 people to run a scanner, despite tatives in the area, Deputies Hoctor and Lowry. the fact it does not have one. Nenagh got no I look forward to a response.We need to know approval, although it does have a scanner. I when it will be opened and we need an indicative pointed out this several times previously. date. We need to know if the hospital will get the The budget for Nenagh hospital is approxi- funding. A sum of \22 million to run that hospital mately \22 million for 2008, an increase of simply will not work. I beg the Minister of State approximately \75,000. Medical inflation runs at not to begin his response by saying that this is a 10% and with the way general inflation is going matter for the HSE. this is an effective drop in the budget of 12%. Deputy Michael Ahern: I will be taking this Deputy Michael Ahern: Inflation is going Adjournment on behalf of my colleague, the down. Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Mary Harney. Senator Kelly does not want to hear it Senator Alan Kelly: With medical inflation but the facts are that the provision of services at included, the budget is effectively reduced by Nenagh General Hospital and across the mid- 12.5%. This means Nenagh hospital was under west region in general is the responsibility of the funded for this year, but it has always spent over Health Service Executive. The Government is the allocated funding. The manager has been told committed to providing a high-quality service to he must fund the CT scanner and the people to all patients. Nenagh General Hospital, which has operate it from current funds. That is impossible 81 beds, provides a range of acute services for the for him. He already has approximately 35 people people of north Tipperary. employed who, according to the HSE, should not The HSE advises that the staffing and budget be employed. How then is he meant to provide of Nenagh General Hospital has increased signifi- for the scanner? cantly over recent years. The revenue budget for the hospital has more than doubled from \8.5 The hospital already suffers from the fact that million in 2000 to \20.5 million in 2007. Staffing the elderly care unit was closed over Christmas. levels at the hospital have increased from 182 in A team work report is due and it will consider 2000 to 248 in 2007. The additional staffing the role of the hospital. Many of us are worried includes the appointment of four dedicated emer- that report will have an impact on accident and gency care physicians providing round the clock emergency services and on the clinical area. The medical cover for the accident and emergency hospital has already closed many of its wards and department. On the capital side, \2.74 million has now provides just 75 beds. been invested to facilitate new developments and We have been told that in order to run the CT upgrades in the accident and emergency depart- scanner the hospital needs specialist radiography ment, the laboratory department, the X-ray staff and a clinical nurse specialist. I understand department and the development of CT scanning that. However, the response to the situation from The HSE acknowledges that additional staff the HSE is laughable. It does not come back with are required to facilitate the introduction of a CT a response to queries for days. When it does come scanning service at Nenagh General Hospital. back with an answer, it is so generic it is useless. The commissioning of services flowing from the The hospital manager provides as much up-to- capital developments completed in the recent date information as he can at his forums, which I past, including the CT scanner, will be considered attend but which are not usually attended by the by the HSE within its overall budget. Various Minister of State with responsibility for the eld- options are being explored at present to com- erly, Deputy Hoctor. However, information from mence this diagnostic service at the earliest pos- the manager is not the issue. The problem is we sible date. The HSE will continue to do all it can cannot get an answer from the HSE as to when it to ensure the provision of a high-quality, patient- will put in use this badly needed scanner that is focused service to the people of north Tipperary. sitting idle. Its operation would also have a dra- matic impact on the ambulance service in the Senator Alan Kelly: I have a great deal of area. respect for what I hope the Minister of State is The HSE has stated that all options are being trying to do in the area of innovation. However, explored at present in order to commence this both he and I know that what he had to read out diagnostic service at the earliest possible date. was a load of waffle. He did not even have the That is complete and utter waffle. It should spirit to read it in a good tone. provide an indicative date. It should give us a I have a very simple question. Could the Mini- date for which the hospital manager can budget. ster of State pass on to the Minister for Health Perhaps the date could be provided before the and Children a request that this be dealt with one publication of the team work report relating to way or another before the publication of the Nenagh hospital and other small hospitals which Teamwork report? Otherwise, there will be no 2033 Home 13 March 2008. Births 2034 joined-up thinking. Can we have an answer one like to see this situation arise. I call on the way or another before the expected publication Department of Health and Children to provide at of the Teamwork report in the first week in least an extension of cover until the issue can be April? The report could be published later on in resolved. I know there are certain issues relating April. If we do not get an answer, the Teamwork to clinical governance and so on which need to report could override it, which would be a war in be resolved, but I ask that this would happen. itself. There will then be concerns about whether Looking back at what the Government has this is outside or inside it. We need a date and to done, I know an expert group on domiciliary or know whether it will be opened. It is an embar- home births was set up in January 1997 and that rassment. We need to know whether the scanner three pilot projects were set up. In 2003, a domi- and its facilities will be used because people see ciliary births group was established which made this as a symbol of how the hospital is treated and recommendations arising from an evaluation of whether this Government believes it has a future. the outcomes of those pilot projects. The eval- By not opening it, a clear signal is being given uation confirmed the feasibility and safety of that, unfortunately, the Government does not home births and stated that when these home have faith in maintaining the hospital in the births were adequately resourced, there were future, which is something we all must fight. high levels of satisfaction for clients and staff. There are issues relating to home births. They Deputy Michael Ahern: I will raise that matter are most suitable for low-risk women and there is with the Minister. In respect of the Senator’s an issue about identifying women for whom home comment about not maintaining the hospital, a births are most suitable. The recruitment and few years ago, I listened to the debate on Nenagh retention of experienced and competent mid- General Hospital and arguments that it was to be wives is another issue that arises. Unfortunately, downgraded. When one sees the extra staffing the profession of midwifery is suffering a collapse and funding for the hospital, one can see that the of morale because of the lack of recognition of Government intends to ensure the hospital con- the expertise that midwives have, particularly in tinues and provides a better service to the people terms of providing woman-centred care in the of the Senator’s area. community. The role of the midwife is integral to models of care which promote normality in the Senator Alan Kelly: As a clinical hospital. birth process. This is the major objection some women have to the hospital-based model of care Deputy Michael Ahern: I will take the matter towards which we have increasingly moved. They up with the Minister. believe birth is medicalised and almost industrial- ised rather than being a natural, normal process Senator Alan Kelly: We will find out in April. that occurs in the most natural way possible which supports women in the process of giving Home Births. birth. Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: I welcome the Mini- It is important that any home birth service that ster of State to the House. The matter I am rais- is provided nationally is backed up by a modern ing on the Adjournment concerns the future of hospital system in case a transfer proves neces- the domiciliary birth service, which is more com- sary. Unfortunately, independent midwives who monly known as the home birth service, in this operate in the community frequently complain country and, in particular, the immediate threat about a lack of co-operation from local general that indemnity cover will be removed for inde- hospitals in terms of providing scans or tests for pendent midwives who really provide the home women whom they are preparing for home birth. birth service to women who choose to birth their A range of maternity services could be pro- children in their own homes. vided in the community, including home birth The model of maternity care in this country has services but also including midwife-led units changed significantly over the past 100 years or which are very close to that and which are either so. We have moved from what was largely a attached to or part of general hospitals. We need system of home births to one which is now largely an expansion of community-based midwifery-led a hospital-based service. In 2001, which is the last services. I asked the Government today to clarify year for which I have complete figures, fewer what its vision was for the future development of than 1% of births occurred at home. There is a home birth services. Judging from the situation need to reorient the maternity care services to the domiciliary birth service is in at the moment, provide a woman-centred model of maternity it appears the Government may be neglecting it care which facilitates choice among women and to such an extent that it will disappear and the also continuity of care. choices available to women will be restricted to Independent midwives have been told that hospital-based choices. indemnity cover will be removed from them at I mentioned clinical governance. An Bord the end of this month. This will leave them with Altranais has a competency framework which a choice between operating without indemnity governs the practise of midwifery but there is a cover, which would not be desirable, or ceasing need for clinical governance structures which to practise. I am sure the Government would not should be established at national, regional and 2035 The 13 March 2008. Adjournment 2036

[Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca.] training and support for midwives; and develop- local levels to support the development of new ment of maternity services. Membership of both models of maternity care. the national implementation committee and the There appears to be no statutory basis for the sub-groups includes key stakeholders from the provision of domiciliary births. The Nurses Act HSE, primary community and continuing care, 1985 requires health boards to supervise mid- the National Hospitals Office, population health, wives who practise outside health care insti- HR specialists, consumers of the service, mid- tutions. However, there are no regulations to wives, obstetricians and neonatologists as well as implement this provision. There are a variety of the State Claims Agency, and the Department of arrangements in different Health Service Execu- Health and Children. tive areas throughout the country concerning the There are approximately 19 midwives practis- payment of grants for home or domiciliary births. ing independently and they attend 200 to 300 This is unfair. A woman living in one part of the births annually out of a total of 70,000 births country might find it easy to access a grant for a nationwide. The Minister is aware of concerns home birth while a woman in another area might regarding indemnity insurance for independent find it difficult to do so. This practice needs to midwives. Independent or self-employed mid- be standardised throughout the country. I have wives are not employees of the public health mentioned how indemnity cover is a problem for service. As the independent midwives are private independent midwives who are largely involved operators who do not have service level agree- in supervising and carrying out home births. ments with the public health service it is not pos- As a party in Government, the Green Party is sible at present for them to come within the ambit asking for evidence that the Government has of the clinical indemnity scheme administered by thought through and is proactively pursuing a the State Claims Agency. The Irish Nurses policy to develop and support domiciliary births Organisation provides a certain level of insurance and other models of maternity care that are not cover to independent midwives who are members exclusively hospital-based in order to provide of that organisation. The INO had indicated that choice to mothers of the most natural possible it would not be providing insurance cover after systems of maternity care, which in the long run 31 March. However, I understand that it has been will be in the interests of the mother and child. It in touch with its insurer about extending this would also be considerably less expensive than cover until the end of September. hospital births. There are increasing fears of liti- Officials from the Department of Health and gation leading to considerably more intervention Children are working with the HSE to put in in the birth process, including the use of caesa- place a robust national clinical governance frame- rean sections, etc. If we had more natural birth work in order to ensure that the practice of inde- processes that were supervised and with the right pendent midwives is brought into close working supports available if necessary, it would be con- relationships with maternity services delivered by siderably more economical for the State. The the HSE and the voluntary maternity hospitals. Government must address this issue. If action is Subject to this being achieved it would then be not taken now and a clear vision is not articulated the intention to bring the independent midwives and pursued by the Government we will see within the scope of the clinical indemnity scheme home births die out and we will see independent by means of an extension of the cover under the midwives disappear, and the country would be scheme to the HSE. poorer for it. I look forward to the response. Senator De´irdre de Bu´ rca: While I thank the Minister of State for the response, only the ques- Deputy Michael Ahern: I thank the Senator for tion regarding indemnity cover for domiciliary raising this matter on the Adjournment. I will be births was answered. I also asked the Minister to responding on behalf of the Minister for Health outline her vision for the future development of and Children, Deputy Harney. the service and I am afraid nothing in the The Minister supports choice for women in response gave me any hope for the future of the childbirth. However, the option of domiciliary service other than the hope that a system will be births must be provided in a safe and secure man- put in place to extend indemnity cover. I ask that ner. A national implementation committee on the matter be brought to the Minister’s attention domiciliary births has been set up by the HSE to and perhaps at a future state I can table another implement the recommendations of a 2004 report motion and get some more detail. on domiciliary births. The committee has set up four sub-groups dealing with selection criteria The Seanad adjourned at 2.25 p.m. until 2.30 and evidence base; legal, indemnity and grants; p.m. on Wednesday, 19 March 2008.