Vol. 754 Tuesday No. 12 24 June 2014

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Schools: Teachers ...... 1117 Food Poisoning ...... 1119 Housing: Underoccupancy Charge ...... 1121 Personal Independence Payment...... 1124 European Union (Information, etc.) Bill [HL] First Reading ...... 1126 Council Tax Valuation Bands Bill [HL] First Reading ...... 1126 Deregulation Bill First Reading ...... 1126 Health: Patient Safety Statement ...... 1126 Student Visas Statement ...... 1130 Scotland: Independence Motion to Take Note ...... 1139 Scotland: Independence (Constitution Committee Report) Motion to Take Note ...... 1234

Grand Committee Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2014 Motion to Consider ...... GC 79 Legislative Reform (Clinical Commissioning Groups) Order 2014 Motion to Consider ...... GC 84 Defibrillators Question for Short Debate...... GC 89 Education Institutions: Autonomy and Accountability Question for Short Debate...... GC 104

Written Statements...... WS 107 Written Answers ...... WA 137

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative Con Ind Conservative Independent DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Lab Labour Lab Ind Labour Independent LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

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Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): My Lords, does House of Lords the Minister recall and agree that for many years the average academic attainment of those entering our Tuesday, 24 June 2014. Bachelor of Education degree courses was around, or even less than, two Es at A-level? The teachers thus 2.30 pm qualified often do more harm than good. Will the noble Lord tell your Lordships what the Government Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Birmingham. are doing about those who are still in the system? I take the opportunity to congratulate the Government on the rest of the noble Lord’s first Answer. Schools: Teachers Question Lord Nash: There is no doubt that teachers who may not have had a particularly good academic career 2.36 pm can substantially raise their game through CPD. However, Asked by Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall it is also undoubtedly true that some teachers are now dropping out of the system due to a more rigorous To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they approach. As I say, we are seeing a much higher have any plans to encourage the retention and quality of teachers coming into the system than ever development of experienced qualified teachers in before. maintained schools. Lord Storey (LD): My Lords, the Minister will be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for aware that highly qualified teachers are often leaving Schools (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, through our schools through confidential compromise agreements, 548 teaching schools and teaching school alliances we costing the education service literally hundreds of are developing a truly school-led system providing a thousands—maybe millions—of pounds. Is this a good wide range of CPD opportunities for schools across use of scarce education resources? Does he also agree the country. This is substantially enhancing the career that when compromise agreements are decided by a opportunities for teachers. Some 74% of trainee teachers school they should be open to public scrutiny? now hold a 2:1 degree or better—the highest proportion ever. Teaching is the most popular career choice for Oxford graduates and Teach First is Britain’s biggest Lord Nash: It is a fact that many schools, rather graduate recruiter. Vacancy rates are declining and than go through an extensive competency procedure, 78% of new teachers are teaching after five years, which can be highly contested, decide to enter into which represents a considerably lower number of career compromise agreements in order to move teachers on changes than in many other jobs. earlier. These often contain secrecy clauses, but I know that this area is being considered more widely. Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, while I thank the Minister for that—encouraging on Baroness Hughes of Stretford (Lab): My Lords, the surface—reply, will he confirm that many teachers since the Minister seems to agree that good qualifications, regularly work 60 hours a week and in school holidays including good degrees, are essential for good teaching, and find it very difficult to make time to develop their can he explain why the Government have made it legal own practice? Coming from a family that is richly for academies to employ unqualified people as teachers? endowed with teachers, I see these pressures close up. I Given this, can he assure the House that his department believe that he gave some figures from his department is monitoring the extent to which academies are doing showing that 74% of newly qualified teachers now so? How many unqualified people are now working as stay in the profession for five years. Recent figures teachers in academies and free schools? showed the rate as being closer to 50%, which, if true, would certainly be a terrible waste. Will the Government Lord Nash: I am, as always, delighted that we are ensure that boards of governors and head teachers having this discussion about qualified teachers because, take seriously the well-being of teachers, including the frankly, if that is all that divides the parties, we have need for them to be good parents to their own children, clearly nearly reached a consensus on our extensive and pay attention particularly to the need for mentoring teaching reforms. There are, in fact, fewer unqualified and professional development? teachers under this Government than under the previous Government, despite the substantial increase in academies, Lord Nash: The noble Baroness is quite right; as I which are able—as the noble Baroness rightly says—to have said before, teaching is the noblest profession recruit them. I will write to her with the precise figures and, at this time in our history, is one of the most on academy teachers but, as I say, we have fewer important jobs in the country. The figure is actually unqualified teachers overall. It would be unwise to 78%, not 74%, and the recently reported figure of 50% deny the opportunity for, say, a professional actor or is inaccurate. We applaud what teachers do. We know singer without QTS to teach in a school, or someone that they consistently go the extra mile to help their with a PhD in molecular biology to teach in a school—as pupils. We take their responsibilities very seriously is the case in one of our free schools—or, indeed, a and we constantly exhort governing bodies to focus teacher from the Guildhall School of Music and Drama increasingly on CPD opportunities for teachers. to teach part time in a primary school. 1119 Schools: Teachers[LORDS] Food Poisoning 1120

Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, is it not a fact that clear consumer messages about preventing campy- through successive years some of the most effective lobacter infections by not washing raw chicken before teachers in some of the highest-achieving schools have cooking. not had a technical teaching qualification? What teachers need is motivation, a love of their subject and an Baroness Humphreys (LD): I thank my noble friend ability to transmit that to others—not just a piece of for that reply. She will be aware that food poisoning is paper. the cause of 500 deaths every year in the UK. Many other cases result in long-term debilitating illnesses. In Lord Nash: I agree entirely with my noble friend. Wales it is now compulsory for all food premises, care Studies show that holding QTS is by no means homes and food manufacturing premises to display the arbiter of a successful teacher, and we must their food hygiene rating certificates in a prominent remember of course that QTS training is extremely position, allowing the consumer to make informed brief. A McKinsey study highlighted the importance choices about those premises. Do the Government of personal characteristics such as commitment, resilience, have any plans to introduce a compulsory “scores on perseverance and motivation—and, of course, subject the doors” system in England? knowledge is very important. Reflecting my noble friend’s comments, Richard Cairns, headmaster of Brighton Baroness Jolly: The food hygiene ratings scheme is College, one of the most improved schools in the one of the Food Standards Agency’s initiatives to country, said: reduce food poisoning. All ratings are published online, “I strongly believe that teachers are born not made and I will but access to ratings at the point of choice is particularly actively seek out teachers from all walks of life who have the important. Compulsory display of stickers will strengthen potential to inspire children”. the scheme’s potential to drive up hygiene standards. The Food Standards Agency worked closely with the Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab): My Lords, Welsh Government to introduce the necessary legislation way back in the 1960s, I may have been the only for this in Wales and it is actively monitoring its person in your Lordships’ House who was an unqualified impact so that a case can be built for England. teacher. During that period, the classes I was given by the head teachers of the day tended to be those with Lord McColl of Dulwich (Con): My Lords, is the children with behavioural and learning difficulties. Minister aware that most chickens in this country were Can the Minister assure the House and all those infected with campylobacter because of the way they parents and grandparents of children with special were executed? They were electrocuted upside down, educational needs that their teachers will be qualified so the contents of their alimentary tract was spread in the expertise of teaching special needs children, not over the whole of the chicken. That is why so many of thrown to the wolves as the children thrown to me them were infected. Are the Government looking into were? more satisfactory ways of dispatching these chickens? Lord Nash: I respect the noble Baroness’s experience. I think we have moved a long way on SEN teaching Baroness Jolly: I thank the noble Lord for such a since the 1960s—I certainly hope and believe we have. graphic description. Indeed, the Government are aware Our policy is that all schools must have a qualified of that, as is the Food Standards Agency. Much SENCO overseeing all teaching of SEN pupils. Successive research is being done throughout the whole food Governments have invested substantial sums in developing chain—from dispatch to the serving hatch, if you the skills of teachers focusing on SEN, and teachers like—into ways of reducing opportunities for food generally, on identifying and teaching SEN pupils. poisoning.

The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords, is the Minister Food Poisoning aware that campylobacter does not just belong to Question chickens? It can also be found in some 49% of dogs, and children particularly should be instructed to wash their hands after playing with their pets. The instruction 2.45 pm to wash hands and dry them well before preparing Asked by Baroness Humphreys food is a very good one. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to reduce the incidence of food Baroness Jolly: I entirely agree with the noble Countess. poisoning among the population. Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, what Baroness Jolly (LD): My Lords, the Government assessment have the Government made of the impact take food safety seriously, particularly food poisoning, of the cuts in local authority budgets that they have which can have severe consequences for individuals brought about on the availability and effectiveness of and place a burden on healthcare services and the food hygiene inspections in relevant premises? economy. A range of initiatives are in place to engage all sectors of the food chain, from producers to consumers. Baroness Jolly: I have no information in my brief to Last week, for example, the UK Food Standards that effect. However, it should be said that this scheme Agency led Food Safety Week, which focused on has been adopted by all but two local authorities in 1121 Food Poisoning[24 JUNE 2014] Housing: Underoccupancy Charge 1122

England, the two exceptions being the Royal Borough Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, many of Greenwich, which is ready to implement it, and older people do not want to leave the property in Rutland, which is somewhat anxious about the success which they have lived for many years, and I have of businesses. suggested in the past that they should be able to take in a lodger, which would help pay their costs. However, I have been told that many authorities do not allow Baroness Wheeler (Lab): Do the Government agree people to take in lodgers. Is the department is aware of with Professor Chris Elliott, whom they commissioned that and is anything being done to ensure that people to review food safety in the wake of the horsemeat who wish to take in a lodger—many people are looking scandal, that the Food Standards Agency should be for accommodation—can do so in order to stay where given new powers to tackle fraud through a food crime they are? unit? Lord Freud: We are encouraging people to take in Baroness Jolly: I regret that I shall have to write to lodgers when appropriate for them. Housing associations the noble Baroness on that issue. and local authorities are looking at that and tend to accept that that is a way of doing it. There is some confusion between strictures against subletting, which Housing: Underoccupancy Charge is a different matter entirely, but lodging tends to be Question accepted around the country.

2.50 pm The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, the Ipsos MORI report, undertaken by the National Housing Asked by Baroness Quin Federation in February this year looked at 183 housing associations. It found that two-thirds of tenants affected To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they by the underoccupancy charge were in rent arrears expect to publish their interim review on the under- and 38% indicated that they were in debt. That is the occupancy charge. equivalent of 72,000 tenants in housing associations in debt in England alone, which seems to be allied in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department some way to the underoccupancy charge. What assessment for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): We expect have Her Majesty’s Government made of the impact to publish the interim report by the Summer Recess. on housing associations of rent arrears because of the underoccupancy charge? Baroness Quin (Lab): I welcome that reply although Lord Freud: We have a general look at the level of I note that last October the Minister said that he arrears through the Homes and Communities Agency, expected the report to come out in the spring, which whose statistics show that arrears have fallen—not has now come and gone. Can he assure me that in the risen—for the past two quarters in a row. The average meanwhile, he and his colleagues will be meeting some rent collection rate for associations remains at 99%, a of the many people who have indicated their willingness very high figure, which is very much at variance with to downsize but for whom there is no alternative some of the stories that we hear and the data that the accommodation and nevertheless end up having to right reverend Prelate referred to. pay a bedroom tax that they cannot afford? Lord Richard (Lab): The noble Lord was asked by Lord Freud: There are some 200,000 smaller premises noble friend Lady Quin when the Government expect in the social rented sector available through each year. to publish the interim report. I may have missed it but We are now seeing a good increase in the number of I did not detect any Answer from the Minister as to home exchanges. Some systems are going up and the when the Government expect to publish the report. housing partners’ HomeSwapper scheme, for instance, Can he tell us why it is so delayed? has now had a 25% increase partly because of the effect of this change. Lord Freud: My Lords, I must learn how to enunciate better. I will repeat my Answer: we expect to publish Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab): Is the Minister the interim report by the Summer Recess. aware of disputed cases being referred to the Local Government Ombudsman for decisions? If so, have Lord Deben (Con): My Lords, does my noble friend there been any decisions in favour of the claimant as I agree that, if he is going to visit and meet people who understand that some people have disputed the charges have been concerned with this, he will also meet people that have been made under the bedroom tax? who have lived in overcrowded conditions for long periods of time because of the underoccupation of Lord Freud: I am not aware of the ombudsman homes that ought to have been available for them? process. The process of which I am aware is when people appeal to the tribunal; there have been more Lord Freud: My Lords, that is clearly one of the than 100 such cases, which have gone one way or the points of getting a better match for our very scarce other—some have gone to appeal and some have been housing. There are long waiting lists for social housing accepted. and substantial overcrowding. Depending on the 1123 Housing: Underoccupancy Charge[LORDS] Personal Independence Payment 1124

[LORD FREUD] Personal Independence Payment data at which you look, there are more than 250,000 Question overcrowded homes in the social rented sector. On the census basis, that figure rises to 361,000. 3pm

Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB): My Lords, can the Asked by Lord McAvoy Minister tell us whether the interim review will include To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures an assessment of how the underoccupancy charge they are taking to tackle delays in personal affects people with conditions such as Parkinson’s, independence payment assessments. which can involve night terrors and uncontrollable movements that make it completely impractical for their partners to sleep in close proximity? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): We are committed to ensuring that personal independence Lord Freud: My Lords, for obvious reasons, I have payment claimants receive high-quality, objective, fair not seen the report. It will be published but I am not and accurate assessments. I acknowledge that the end- aware of that kind of detail at this stage. Clearly once to-end claimant journey is taking longer than expected. the report is out we can look at the issues that remain We are absolutely committed to improving performance, uncovered. There will be a full report, which will be both ours and that of the assessment providers. published next year in 2015. Lord McAvoy (Lab): My Lords, as the Minister is Baroness Sherlock (Lab): My Lords, the Minister aware, his own department’s figures show that it will has often complained about councils underspending take 42 years to clear the backlog. Yesterday in the the discretionary funds that mitigate the effect of the House of Commons the Minister of State, Mike Penning, bedroom fax. Did he see the report in Inside Housing said that this was scaremongering. If that is the case, last week which stated that £7 million of the extra can the Minister give a guarantee as to when it will be £20 million allocated by the Government last July cleared? remains unallocated to councils by the Government? An FoI request showed that 27 councils did not get the money they asked for mostly because the department Lord Freud: One can do some funny things with decided that this would allow them to buy out the mathematics and that 42-year figure is one of them. effects of the bedroom tax. So people asked for money, Clearly in the opening period of any new policy of this were turned down because it would have the effect that sort there is a ramp-up, and we need to get that was wanted, and then it is claimed that the underspend ramp-up right. As I said, the position of this process is shows that they did not need any more money in not satisfactory and we are taking a lot of steps to the first place. How can the Minister explain that to make sure that we get the improvement that we must the thousands of people affected by the bedroom tax? have. We are pushing up the numbers of staff, improving claimant communications in this process, getting more paper-based reviews which will speed the process up, Lord Freud: My Lords, some of my more sharp-eyed and taking a series of other initiatives to get this right. colleagues here will have seen the information we put out on the discretionary housing payments for last year. That showed that there was a £13 million underspend Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, given the by 240 councils and that of the £20 million bidding view just expressed by the Public Accounts Committee fund, £7 million was not spent. The £20 million was of the House of Commons that the introduction of not applied for in its entirety. However, we allocated personal independence payments has been a “fiasco”, that money on the basis of parity of requirement. and that in securing the contract ATOS gave, There was an extensive process to make sure that we “incorrect and potentially misleading information”, gave the appropriate amounts of money to those does the Minister have any plans to re-examine the councils. ATOS tender documents? Does he believe that ATOS should be able to bid again in future for DWP contracts? Lord German (LD): My Lords, the Ipsos MORI review, of course, is much awaited, not least by the Lord Freud: The build-up of PIP was done in a Master of the Rolls who, in making a judgment in controlled and phased way, and that was acknowledged favour of the Government, said that the DWP had by the NAO. ATOS won that contract in fair, open informed him that, competition and we have no plans to reopen that “the scheme may need to be modified in the light of experience”. process. When the independent review comes out and my noble friend sees it before the Summer Recess, will he agree Baroness Eaton (Con): My Lords, can the Minister to act upon it and take decisions to make changes to tell us what assessment he has made of the level of the scheme so that it fits the experience shown by his support by Her Majesty’s Government to disabled independent review? people?

Lord Freud: My Lords, we always look very closely Lord Freud: My Lords, the Government remain at any research that is done and we will do no differently committed to maintaining support for disabled with this research. people. We spend roughly £50 billion a year, every 1125 Personal Independence Payment[24 JUNE 2014] Health: Patient Safety 1126 year, and that is held in real terms. That is a fifth European Union (Information, etc.) Bill higher than the EU average. The overall spend on [HL] incapacity benefits has remained roughly flat in real terms over the life of this Government, and indeed the First Reading benefits about which we are talking—PIP, DLA—have 3.07 pm actually been going up in real terms over the past four years. A Bill to make provision for information to be available in various public places relating to the activities and Baroness Sherlock (Lab): My Lords, the Minister’s organisation of the European Union; to make provision assurances would be rather more encouraging were for the flying of the flag of the European Union on it not for the fact that, as well as this shambles of various public buildings; to provide information to further the WCA and the 42-year backlog, employment and the establishment of twinning arrangements between support allowance has been delayed and proved not towns in the United Kingdom and elsewhere in the to be succeeding; the Work Programme has a 94% European Union in accordance with the European Union’s failure rate; the bedroom tax is not meeting its town twinning support scheme; and for connected purposes. objectives; and at current speeds, universal credit will The Bill was introduced by Lord Dykes, read a first time take 1,052 years to roll out. Is the Minister proud of and ordered to be printed. these achievements? Council Tax Valuation Bands Bill [HL] Lord Freud: My Lords, we are transforming the First Reading welfare system in this country. We are doing it across the piece. It is all very well for the Opposition to 3.08 pm complain about the speed at which we do these programmes. These programmes are difficult to do. A Bill to make provision for the introduction of a new They were shied away from by the previous Government. set of council tax valuation bands to apply to all dwellings I think that Peers all round the House will be pleased bought or sold after 1 April 2000. to see these transformational changes go in and transform the way in which this country operates at a fundamental The Bill was introduced by Lord Marlesford, read a first level. There is a level of cynicism about what is always time and ordered to be printed. a difficulty: getting difficult, complicated programmes through exactly to timetable. People who know how Deregulation Bill difficult projects are know that process, but this is First Reading critical work for our country. 3.08 pm Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD): My Lords, there The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first is, however, an important point that I would like the time and ordered to be printed. Minister to comment on, following on from earlier comments made by colleagues. People increasingly say to me that in the implementation of the flagship Health: Patient Safety schemes contained in the Welfare Reform Act 2012 we Statement are beginning to look as if we have bitten off more than we can chew. That is a matter of serious concern. 3.09 pm On the narrow point of PIP, I exhort the Minister to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department hasten slowly. Will he give an assurance to the House of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Lords, I now repeat a that it is more important to him to get these things Statement made earlier today in another place by my right than to do them quickly? In that regard, will he right honourable friend the Secretary of State on the look at the possibility of clearing the backlog of subject of patient safety. personal independence payment claims before the rollout “Mr Speaker, I would like to make a Statement to of the reassessment of DLA to other parts of the the House about a package of measures that I have United Kingdom? announced today in order to boost safety, transparency and openness in our NHS following my earlier Written Lord Freud: My Lords, as my noble friend said, we Ministerial Statement. have to be careful to get the implementation right. We Just last week, the respected Commonwealth Fund are aiming to do our programmes at the pace that we ranked the UK in first place for quality of care, can do them, so if we have to slow down we will slow including safety. We compare well internationally and down. We go at the pace that works because it is one it is clear that we have much to be proud of. However, thing to not go at exactly the speed you may have it is also clear that there is more to do. We must not be planned at the beginning; it is another thing to make it complacent. difficult for people. In the case of PIP, we are looking It is estimated that 12,000 deaths a year in hospitals at how we carry out the next stage of the PIP rollout, have a 50% chance of being prevented. Figures released the natural reassessment process. We will extend that by NHS England today tell us that there were 32 ‘never only when we have capacity to do so, and so far we events’ in the last two months, including a throat pack have not made any decisions on when we will do that and a hypodermic needle being left inside patients rollout. post-surgery. These are shocking statistics. 1127 Health: Patient Safety[LORDS] Health: Patient Safety 1128

[EARL HOWE] Thirdly, the Commonwealth Fund found cause for In the Government’s response to Sir Robert Francis’s concern on infection compared to 2010, with the NHS landmark public inquiry on the poor standards of now ranked worst in the world for patients reporting care at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, I infection in hospitals or shortly after. What is he doing made clear our determination to make the NHS the to turn around this very worrying trend? safest and most open and transparent healthcare system Lastly, the Secretary of State for Health talks about in the world. his new target to save 6,000 lives over three years, So, today, all hospital trusts around the country which we all clearly welcome. I welcome the appointment will receive an invitation to ‘Sign up to Safety’. This of Sir David Dalton, a person I know well, to the campaign, led by Sir David Dalton, the inspirational position of leading this initiative. However, will the chief executive of Salford Royal, will help us achieve Minister explain further today how this will actually our ambition of halving avoidable harm and thereby be achieved with the current pressures on NHS budgets? potentially save 6,000 lives. Trusts will be asked to devise and deliver a safety plan, and may receive a 3.14 pm financial incentive from the NHS Litigation Authority Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble to support implementation. Lord for his welcome of the measures that we have Mr Speaker, we are also fulfilling the pledge we announced today. They must be seen in the context of made in our response to Francis to create a hospital other measures that we have taken in the light of safety website for patients. As of today, the NHS Robert Francis’s report, many of which have been Choices website will tell us how all hospital trusts are debated in this House. performing across a range of seven key safety indicators The noble Lord spoke about a culture of naming, including ‘open and honest reporting’. And, for the shaming and blaming. I do not see it in that light. The first time, the website will let patients and the public key message from Robert Francis was surely that we see whether a hospital has achieved its planned levels need a change of culture in many of our NHS institutions. for nursing hours. That is not something that can be dictated by legislation. Indeed, I am pleased to inform the House that the On the other hand, it is something that we can assist in latest workforce statistics published today show us promoting by means of transparency. The whole drive that we have 5,900 more nurses on our hospital wards towards quality is surely assisted by shining a light on since our response to Francis. poor practice where it exists, encouraging all staff in Mr Speaker, I am proud that the NHS is blazing a hospitals to take ownership of what their organisation trail on openness and transparency. We are the first is doing and then putting those things right. That country in the world to publish this breadth and depth culture should extend from the board right down to of safety data. the lowest level of staff. This is part and parcel of the Finally, I am pleased to announce today that Sir Robert move that the NHS is trying to make in the direction Francis QC will be chairing an independent review of creating a better culture—one that exists in many on creating an open and honest reporting culture parts of our NHS but not in enough of them. in the NHS. This review will provide advice and Do we intend to promote transparency in all those recommendations to ensure that NHS workers can providing services to the NHS? Yes, that is the intention. speak up without fear of retribution. The review will also This would be done by means of the NHS standard look at how we can ensure that where NHS whistleblowers contract, which in time will incorporate the necessary have been mistreated; there are appropriate remedies provisions. for staff and accountability for those mistreating them. As regards infection rates in hospitals, the picture Mr Speaker, I am confident that this package of nationally is in fact very good. The numbers of MRSA measures will shine a light on poor care so that lessons bloodstream and C. diff infections are currently at can be learnt, action can be taken and harm to patients record lows, but there is no scope for complacency. We prevented”. believe that the website that I referred to in the answer That concludes the Statement. that I repeated, which will incorporate the indicator relating to infection and cleanliness, will act as a spur 3.12 pm to hospitals when they know that their patients can see Lord Bradley (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister the degree of infection pertaining over the previous for repeating the Statement on patient safety. three-month period. As we said in the other place, an open learning How do we intend to save the lives that we have the culture across all parts of the NHS is an ambition ambition to save? As I said at the beginning, much of shared across the House and builds on the work of this depends on openness, on transparency and clarity the previous Government following care scandals in for the public, and indeed on staff taking ownership of the 1990s. It is right to call for openness, transparency problems where they exist, not shying away from them. and accountability, but I ask the Minister how he will We think of measures like the fundamental standards guard against the risk, as pointed out by Martin being introduced that will define the level below which Bromiley, of creating a naming, shaming and blaming standards of care should never fall. We think of the culture. duty of candour that is to be introduced. We think of Secondly, the Minister has told the House that the new ways in which the Care Quality Commission, one-fifth of hospitals are failing to report properly. with its new chief inspectors, is approaching the task How does he plan to address this? Will he extend full of assessing the quality and safety of institutions. All transparency to all providers of NHS services, including these things combined should be seen as part and the private sector? parcel of the picture. 1129 Health: Patient Safety[24 JUNE 2014] Student Visas 1130

3.18 pm training of the staff who actually care for our patients. We have a situation in which, unless you are a medic, Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, a 2012 report by you are not entitled, even if you are a qualified nurse, the American Department of Health showed that 86% to have resources spent on you in order to continually of reportable events were not reported, partly because update your professional development. In terms of of staff misperceptions about what constitutes patient preceptorship, there are no resources; in terms of harm. Will the Minister reassure the House that both mentorship, there are little additional resources; and the Government and the NHS regard one in five there is virtually no resource to train healthcare assistants. incidents going unreported as unacceptable? What Will my noble friend agree that although the move to will the Government do to ensure that all staff understand have 9,000 more nurses is incredibly welcome, we need what needs to be reported and do so in a truly open to put training at the very heart of the safety agenda, and transparent culture? because unless we train we will not get high quality staff? Earl Howe: My noble friend makes a series of very important points. Clearly, a balance has to be struck Earl Howe: I agree with my noble friend; it would here. It would become self-defeating if every single be difficult to disagree with him. Training is essential if mistake, even one that had no bearing on patient we are to have high quality staff. That is why we have safety, had to be reported by every single member of protected the training budget, which is now hosted by staff. The system would be overloaded. We are keen to Health Education England, whose job it is to ensure ensure that those incidents that result in potential not just that there are adequate numbers of each type harm, real harm or—worse still—death are reported, of professional in the health service but that the exposed and dealt with. Of course the National Reporting quality of the training is as we would all wish. It is the and Learning System, which was originally part of the task of the local education and training boards to National Patient Safety Agency when the previous assess the position at a local level and, informed by the Government set it up and is now housed at Imperial NHS providers that are under their wing, to respond College Healthcare NHS Trust, has the task of collating to the needs of those providers. safety incidents from trusts and drawing lessons from them. That is every bit as important a process as it ever was. It will be the task of NHS England to draw those lessons together and incorporate them in its Student Visas commissioning guidance. My noble friend has raised Statement that issue and we have a task ahead of us that will take some time to achieve; but I believe that this is a 3.24 pm welcome start. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My Lords, Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): My Lords, looking with the leave of the House, I will now repeat a back on it, was the Nursing 2000 initiative not a bad Statement made by my honourable friend the Minister mistake because it turned nursing into an all-graduate for Immigration, Mr James Brokenshire, in the House profession, with degrees supplied by the second-rate of Commons earlier today. The Statement is as follows. social science departments of the former polytechnics? “With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to Are the Government doing anything with the training make a Statement on the abuse of student visas. Since of nurses that reflects what the noble Lord’s colleague the last election, the Government have taken action at education, Mr Gove, is doing with the training of across the board to reduce and control immigration. teachers, about which we heard in the first Question We have introduced a cap on economic migration today? Is there a new emphasis on practical training from outside the European Union, we have reformed and on getting back to matron and the discipline of the family visa system and we have eliminated much of the ward? the abuse of the student visa system we saw under the previous Government. The result is that net migration Earl Howe: It was only recently that the Nursing from outside the EU is close to its lowest levels since and Midwifery Council revised the curriculum for the the late 1990s, while net migration is down by a third training of nurses. I am sure that the noble Lord will since its peak under the party opposite. be pleased to know that that curriculum is broadly The Government have always said that even in light divided 50:50 into practical training and training in of the reforms we have introduced, we need to keep the classroom, which was the balance historically. I each of the main immigration routes to Britain under believe that nurse training is now set fair for the future. review, we need to remain vigilant against abuse of the The noble Lord is right to raise concerns about Project student visa system, and education providers need to 2000, which many people felt did not quite address the meet their responsibilities. needs of nurse training. However, that programme is That is why I can tell the House that, since the start substantially different now from what it was in 2000. of February, immigration enforcement officers, with the support from the National Crime Agency, together Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD): My Lords, I with officials from UK Visas and Immigration, have am delighted to follow the arch-moderniser, the noble been conducting a detailed and wide-ranging investigation Lord, Lord Pearson. In the whole of my noble friend’s into actions by organised criminals to falsify English statement, and indeed until the noble Lord raised language tests for student visa applicants. They have his question, not a word was mentioned about the also investigated a number of colleges and universities 1131 Student Visas[LORDS] Student Visas 1132

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] Rules. If these student visa applicants had to cheat to for their failure to make sure that the foreign students pass an English language test, it is highly doubtful that they have sponsored meet the standards set out in the many of the colleges and some of the universities that Immigration Rules. sponsored them in numbers were fulfilling their duties Since the reforms we introduced in 2011, it has been as highly trusted sponsors. a requirement for all student visa applicants to prove As I said earlier in my Statement, UKVI and that they can speak English at an appropriate level. All immigration enforcement officers have been investigating students in further education or at a university which many of the colleges and universities I am talking relies on English language testing who want to extend about because of wider concerns about their conduct. their stay by applying for a new student visa have to The evidence they have provided of what is going on be tested by one of five companies licensed by the in these institutions is cause for serious concern. Government. One of those companies, the European The work undertaken by HMRC has identified a subsidiary of an American firm called Educational number of overseas university students earning more Testing Service, was exposed by the BBC’s “Panorama” than £20,000 a year, despite the rule that they must not programme earlier this year, following systematic cheating work more than 20 hours per week during term time. at a number of its UK test centres. Facilitated by Overseas students at privately funded further education organised criminals, this typically involved invigilators colleges are not allowed to work at all, yet one college—the supplying, even reading out, answers to whole exam London School of Business & Finance—has 290 foreign rooms, or gangs of impostors being allowed to step students who worked and paid tax last year. One into the exam candidates’ places to sit the test. Evidently, university student identified by HMRC had been working this could happen only with considerable collusion by a 60-hour week for six months. the test centres concerned. UKVI identified people allegedly studying in London Having been provided with analysis from the American while their home addresses were registered as restaurants arm of ETS for a number of ETS test centres in the as far as away as Ipswich and Chichester. Students UK operating in 2012 and 2013, officials have identified sponsored by Glyndwr University so far identified more than 29,000 invalid results and more than 19,000 with invalid test results provided by ETS number more questionable results. As they still have to receive test than 230, rising to more than 350 if you add the scores analyses from ETS for other testing centres that it counted as questionable. The comparable figures operated in the UK, it is likely that the true totals will for the University of West London are more than be higher. 210 sponsored students with invalid scores, rising to Officials from immigration enforcement and UK more than 290 when questionable scores are included. Visas and Immigration have not found evidence to At certain private further education colleges, as suggest there is systematic cheating taking place in the many as three-quarters of the file checks completed by tests carried out by the other providers. As soon as the UKVI officers were a cause for concern. At one college, allegations of systematic cheating were first made, we a staff member told UKVI officers that they were suspended ETS testing in the UK, put a hold on all encouraged not to report students’ absences or failures immigration applications from those in the UK using because doing so would reduce the college’s income an ETS test certificate, and made all applications from and jeopardise its right to sponsor foreign students. overseas subject to interview by UK Visas and The Government are not prepared to tolerate this Immigration staff. In April ETS’s licence to conduct abuse. So I can tell the House that this morning the tests for immigration purposes ended, and two weeks Home Office suspended the highly trusted sponsor ago, we formally removed the company as a test provider status—that is, the right to sponsor foreign students—of in the Immigration Rules. Glyndwr University. Because of the organised criminality that lies behind In addition, we have suspended the licences of the falsified tests, the National Crime Agency has 57 private further education colleges, a list of which I been brought in to work alongside immigration will place in the Library of the House. We have told a enforcement officers to pursue criminal action against further two universities—the University of Bedfordshire the perpetrators. Immigration enforcement has begun and the University of West London—that they are no work to identify anybody who is in the country illegally longer allowed to sponsor new students, pending further as a result of the falsified tests, so that they can be investigations which will decide whether they, too, removed. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is also should be suspended. helping the investigation by scrutinising pay and tax Other universities are involved in the continuing records. A criminal investigation has been launched investigation and further action may follow, although, into the role of ETS Global Ltd. More generally, because of the steps they have already taken to improve immigration enforcement is working to identify, pursue their processes, including voluntarily ceasing overseas and prosecute those involved in facilitating this activity, recruitment to London sub-campuses, we will not at and to investigate links to wider organised crime. this stage remove their right to sponsor foreign students. Arrests have been made and I expect that more will Because much of the worst abuse we have uncovered follow. seems to be taking place at London sub-campuses of I should be clear that proof that a visa applicant universities based in other parts of the country, I can can speak English is only one test for somebody also tell the House that the Quality Assurance Agency seeking to study in Britain. Other requirements include for Higher Education will examine these London proof of academic qualifications, attendance at college campuses to see whether further action should be or university and compliance with the Immigration taken against their parent universities. 1133 Student Visas[24 JUNE 2014] Student Visas 1134

The Government do not take such action lightly. to law-abiding universities and their genuine students. However, we are clear that this kind of irresponsibility In the interests of national security and the integrity cannot go without serious sanction. We have already of the system, and in the interests of those universities removed some 750 bogus colleges from the list of and students that abide by the rules and bring huge those entitled to bring foreign students to Britain and benefit to this country, the Government must restore of these almost 400 we now know were linked to those confidence. who obtained invalid ETS certificates. We have tightened up the rules for individual students. 3.38 pm We have reduced the level of immigration to Britain, Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I accept that in part by cutting out the abuse in the student visa the noble Baroness is right to point out the seriousness system, but we have always said that we must remain of this situation but I do not think that she is right to vigilant against abuse. The steps I have outlined today try to single out the actions of this Government in that show that we will not hesitate to take firm action respect. We were taking action to investigate the whole against those students, colleges and universities which scale of abuse in London colleges before the ETS do not abide by their legal responsibilities and resolutely fraud was revealed through the “Panorama”programme. pursue organised criminality to bring those responsible At that point, we realised why it was that we had to justice. I commend this Statement to the House”. found such large-scale abuse going on in London My Lords, that concludes the Statement. colleges as a result. I cannot say to the noble Baroness that I welcome 3.35 pm her words on the Immigration Act. Much of the focus Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, the of that Act was designed specifically to deal with the most important criterion of any immigration and visa problem of student abuse. I am mindful of those system is its integrity. Governments should always occasions on which the noble Baroness has called for take swift and effective action to stop any abuses of students to be removed from net migration figures. the system and must always be vigilant to prevent Does this not show how right the Government are to abuse. The scale of abuse outlined in the Minister’s seek to tighten up in this area, because of the failure of Statement is absolutely shocking and it is right that the previous Government to tackle the problem at all? action is taken to tackle such abuse. Indeed, the Labour The truth of the matter is that we came in with an Government closed 140 colleges between April 2009 immigration process that was totally capable of examining and January 2010. My questions are on the practicalities the out-of-control flow of immigration into this country. and implications, rather than the principle. A little bit of humility on the part of the noble Baroness might help this particular problem. As the Minister said in repeating the Statement, following the BBC “Panorama”programme’s investigation She asked about criminal proceedings. I am not in February the Government announced that they had prepared to talk about them because of their nature, suspended language tests run by ETS. Can the Minister except to say that it is quite clear that criminality has clarify the timescale of who knew what and when? been involved in this case. I hope that I have the When were Ministers made aware of the scale of the support of the noble Baroness in the Government’s abuse? Was that before or after the BBC investigation? attempt to make sure that the abuse of the system that If they knew before, why was action not taken earlier? has been exposed by our investigations into London If they did not know before, how is it that after four colleges and by the BBC “Panorama” programme is years in government the BBC knew about it before the effectively dealt with. We are putting responsibility Government did? The longer this goes on, the greater where it lies—which is on the colleges, to make sure the culpability of the Government in not tackling it. that they keep orderly houses and discourage irregular use of the student visa passage for working and illegal The Minister referred to criminal proceedings. Can immigration into this country. he tell us who those proceedings will be against and how long those investigations will take? Will they 3.41 pm include proceedings against the 48,000 people who fraudulently obtained language certificates? Do the Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, I am sure that Government know who they are and where they are? the Minister shares my and many people’s anger and The Statement says that arrests were made but how shame that so many innocent students have been many have been made to date? With regard to the duped and have had cheating promoted to them as if it universities, what discussions and consultations have were a British value—which clearly it is not. Can the there been with those universities where action has Minister tell the House whether the individual students been taken? What are the implications for lawful, caught up in this will have a chance to retake the tests legitimate university students and institutions? before immigration action is taken against them? Can The Government’s independent inspector, John Vine, he also say what positive steps the Government are issued warnings about the system’s abuse in 2012. taking to promote the sector, which we all agree is However, it appears that no serious action was taken such an important export? We know that a factor in until the BBC investigation, so this is a crisis created students choosing to come and study here is whether on the Government’s watch. The Government have they feel welcome or not. talked tough but done very little and while this abuse was festering, we had the nonsense of an Immigration Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I will start with the last Bill that did nothing to tackle the abuses we are suggestion made by my noble friend because it is really talking about today but proposed actions detrimental important. Despite having to deal with this problem— 1135 Student Visas[LORDS] Student Visas 1136

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] Lord Taylor of Holbeach: ETS was licensed in 2011 I think the whole House will understand why the to carry out the English-language testing that we Government have had to deal with this problem—we brought in at that time. ETS has been a long-standing recognise the enormous asset that we have in the supplier of educational testing services to the Government. higher education and further education facilities in Its appointment in such a role predates our period in this country. They are global assets and we want them office. Five companies were selected by a process of to be available to the world. But they must be conducted competition to perform this task, and ETS was one of under rules which reflect the fact that people come the successful companies. In all fairness, we had no here to study and not as a short cut to involvement in reason to suppose that it would be undertaking this working. task fraudulently. We have had a lot of debates in the House. I think that some of the best have been on this subject, but Lord Naseby (Con): My Lords, is my noble friend sometimes I have been the only person saying aware that this issue has been going on for at least a that students should remain within the net migration decade? This is about the fifth time that I have stood figures. I hope that noble Lords who thought differently up on this issue. Are not his actions greatly to be will be thinking along my lines now and seeing how welcomed? Is it not really worrying to discover that important it is. I have emphasised that we want the time and again our newer universities and colleges, on brightest and the best to come here, but they should the whole, are at fault? Previously it was London do so with their sponsorship in order and without the colleges, and now I hear that my home county of criminality that has been revealed by this particular Bedfordshire is under deep suspicion. Will my noble investigation. friend tell us what action will be taken when he has carried out his investigations to ensure that senior Lord Lloyd of Berwick (CB): My Lords, I have a personnel at those universities who are, or are supposed question as to the order of events referred to in the to be, in charge are fully reprimanded and, I hope, Statement. In the first place, the investigation into removed from their posts? these important matters started, we are told, at the beginning of February. There is also a reference to Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, how universities the BBC “Panorama” programme, which was also at deal with this is largely a matter for them. I believe the beginning of the year. Which of these two events that I was right to draw the attention of the House to came first? Was it the “Panorama” programme which those measures which we eventually agreed in the stimulated the investigation? If so, should it not be Immigration Act to deal with this matter. It should given credit for it? make it much easier to monitor and deal with in future, but we have to deal with things at present. I emphasise that the vast majority of students here are Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I hope that I have paid genuine and are here to study. We want to make sure tribute. The Statement did, in fact, pay tribute to the that we give them our support. We want to make sure “Panorama” programme. It has done the country that the vast majority of educational institutions are huge service in revealing this abuse. I asked the very genuine and doing their best for their students’ education. same question when I was being briefed on the issue We will invite the Department for Education, the earlier today. There was indeed an investigation by Higher Education Funding Council for England, the immigration enforcement—UKVI itself had initiated Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, the Scottish an investigation of the London colleges. It appears funding agencies, Universities UK and the National that the London-based colleges have been causing Union of Students to join a working group on how we trouble, in particular where the universities are established offer support to genuine students who find themselves elsewhere and have branches in this country. in situations not of their making as a result of the We did not have suspicions about English-language measures that we are taking today. testing until it came up as a result of the “Panorama” programme. The two things are complementary and reinforce the action that the Government have taken Lord Morgan (Lab): My Lords, it is very pleasing in investigating the matter. that the Minister managed to make some sympathetic remarks about overseas students. I thought that the initial Statement, which, I appreciate, was read in the Baroness Blackstone (Lab): My Lords, on what date House of Commons, was deeply depressing, seeing was the subsidiary of ETS given a contract to carry students as a threat and not an opportunity or enrichment out this work? What assurances were sought from of this country, and seeing the issue in terms of these private companies when they were hired to carry immigration and not of educational policy. Is not the out this work that they were competent to do it? Will real explanation of this problem to do with privatisation? the Minister admit that he is muddling up two completely We are not talking about universities; we are talking different issues when he suggests that this has something about a whole range of privately funded colleges and to do with the category under which students should institutions, many of them in London, which do not be placed, whether part of the migration statistics or observe the strict academic and educational standards in a separate category for students? That has nothing of our universities, of one of which I had the privilege to do with the issue that we have been discussing of being a vice-chancellor. The institution that is today, the appalling lapse in standards by a company under criticism is a hived-off institution to deal with presumably hired by this Government, which the Minister English language teaching. I hope that the Minister, has told the House about. who I know to be a very progressive-minded man, will 1137 Student Visas[24 JUNE 2014] Student Visas 1138 take the opportunity to affirm that real universities unfortunate message, which they do not intend to observe the highest standards in inquiring into the send, with regard to the general welcome of students educational and personal background of students. It into the United Kingdom. is really quite unfair of the Statement made in the The other issue is that of the genuine student in House of Commons to confuse them with a number relation to the classification of immigration. As I see of far inferior institutions. it, the situation is this: over the past two years, the Prime Minister has said very clearly that he wishes to Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am sorry that the noble see annual immigration reduced to a figure below Lord has taken that view of the Statement. I think that 100,000. I think that is a fair estimate of what he said. it described why we were taking action this day to deal At the same time, it has been said time and time again with particular institutions. I stayed for the questions in both Houses of Parliament that genuine students after seeing my honourable friend Mr Brokenshire are nevertheless to be regarded as immigrants. That is make his Statement, and he was at pains to emphasise the classical and historic way in which they have been that our relationship with universities is very important regarded, and I believe they were regarded in that way to us, because £2.8 billion—or is it 2.8%?—of the by the previous Government. In light of the fact that British economy is in the educational sector. I shall the number of genuine students whose genuineness is not rise to the fly that the noble Lord has cast across not in any way in dispute is in excess of 100,000 per me about privatisation. I do not think that that matters. annum, how can the two objectives ever be served—in The truth of the matter is that all education institutions, other words, keeping immigration below 100,000 and whether public or private, must conduct themselves in at the same time welcoming every genuine non-EU a proper fashion. That is what we are seeking to student? At the moment there is a dichotomy. What do emphasise. However, as I think I made clear earlier, I the Government intend to do about it? believe in the universities of this country. They enhance our lives and prosperity and enable us to have a presence in the world that we would not have without Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I think that I have made their international role. our policy clear—namely, to encourage genuine students to this country. I do not see any fundamental difficulty with that, and I am not in favour of moving the Baroness Williams of Crosby (LD): My Lords, I goalposts on this issue. The Government have their thank my noble friend for once again reassuring us objective of reducing net migration. The noble Lord with his usual balance and judgment of the situation. suggests that that might be in conflict with a policy We are all appalled that there should have been which encourages genuine students to come here. I do exploitation in this way. My noble friend referred to not believe that the two are incompatible. I think that the duping of students. Some of these students would it is possible to achieve both and it is certainly the have been duped, not knowing any better about what Government’s aim and ambition to do that. However, they should do and relying on what they seemed to to do that, we need the co-operation of the university think was authoritative advice. What steps will be and college sector. No gathering of individuals contains taken to strike Educational Testing Services off the list more people associated with universities and colleges of approved organisations for this purpose in future, than perhaps this House. I appeal to everyone who is and can he tell us what other sanctions might be involved in university courts, is a vice-chancellor or exercised to ensure that these crucial agencies satisfy is involved in any way whatever to emphasise the the requirements that the Government ask of them? Government’s determination to maintain the importance of the sector but also to emphasise to those involved in Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I am not an arrogant sort university administration the importance of applying of person, as my noble friend will know, and I think their mind to the consequences of illegal immigration that there are lessons for the Government to learn to this country and of playing their part in seeking to from this situation. It is right that we should seek to eliminate it. learn these lessons. I agree with her that many of the individuals involved may well have been perfectly innocent of the circumstances in which they now find themselves, Lord Pearson of Rannoch (UKIP): My Lords, is the of being illegally in this country, having applied through noble Lord aware that my experience of validating the one of these bogus entry systems, which contain in polytechnic sector for 10 years led me to complain that them a germ of criminality, as I said earlier. How that there was no system of quality control in higher aspect is dealt with will be a matter for the courts to education, as opposed to quality assurance, which is decide. Meanwhile, as I say, I am quite prepared to really just academics cosily scratching each others’ accept that there are things that the Government can backs? Does not this story call into question the learn from this experience, and there is a need to usefulness of our Quality Assurance Agency? How ensure that we play our part in supporting universities could all this go on right under its nose? Is it not time in their job. that we set up a system of higher education quality control, which would have many wider benefits as well? Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB): My Lords, the Minister very properly makes the point that the vast majority of Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The noble Lord will foreign students are perfectly genuine entrants into the understand that a university’s funding is dependent United Kingdom. However, there are two issues, one upon it satisfying the funding agency, HEFCE, on the of which is the bogus student. I applaud the Government quality of education being provided. I have great faith for their action, but I hope that they do not send an in the Quality Assurance Agency. As a result of today’s 1139 Student Visas[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1140

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace announcements, we will use it to check out further of Tankerness) (LD): My Lords, I thank noble Lords those colleges which are still the subject of our concerns who are attending and intend to participate in this and anxieties following the inquiries. Therefore, I do important debate. With some 85 days to go to the not share the noble Lord’s views on this issue. referendum, it is important that your Lordships’ House has an opportunity to express views on this most Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, should it not be fundamental question facing the people of Scotland. obvious to academic institutions when students do I welcome the fact that the debate is linked to the not have a proper command of English? If they do not House of Lords Constitution Committee report on exercise caution in this regard, is it not inevitable that the constitutional implications of the Scottish referendum. they will lose their highly trusted sponsorship status? I thank the committee for this report, not least the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, who chaired the committee. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I agree with my noble I look forward to the speech of my noble friend Lord friend. That is why we are particularly concerned that Lang of Monkton, who now has the distinction of the institutions themselves failed to take proper regard chairing that committee, and to the speeches of many of the fact that some of their students were not of its members who are here to take part. The report is capable of speaking English properly and had insufficient a very thorough and important contribution to the command of the language, and we know that in some referendum debate and took evidence from a broad cases the students concerned were not really studying range of witnesses, including respected academics and at all but were out there working. The HMRC figures Ministers from both the United Kingdom and Scottish have clearly demonstrated this, and that is why we are Governments. The United Kingdom Government have taking this action. until 16 July to respond to this report, and I can confirm that we will publish our response in advance of that date. I do not wish to pre-empt what will be Baroness Prashar (CB): My Lords, what positive said by my noble friend Lord Lang and others who steps are being taken to ensure that innocent students wish to reflect on the report, but will respond in my at these institutions do not suffer unnecessary hardship closing remarks to the points they make. and are not left stranded? If that happens, it will send a negative message about how much we welcome As I indicated, it is now less than three months— students. It is important that steps are taken to ensure 85 days—until the people of Scotland take the most that innocent students do not suffer. important decision a country can ever be asked to take—whether we decide to stay in the United Kingdom family, or to leave and go it alone. I passionately Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The noble Baroness will believe in Scotland being within the United Kingdom, know that previously we had to suspend the sponsorship not because of dogma, nostalgia or ideology but because status of London Met, and we worked closely with the of what the United Kingdom means in the here and university. We are doing the same now because it is not now, and what we can continue to achieve together as in our interests to upset the studies of those who are we go forward into the future. I believe in the contribution here and clearly want to continue them. We want those we have made over the past 300 years, along with our students to feel that they can carry on. That is our friends and families across England, Wales and Northern objective and we will be doing that. Meanwhile, we Ireland—our common effort to create and share have to say to the colleges and universities I have something bigger that serves us all well. Together we mentioned that it is in their hands—it is their responsibility can go on creating more, delivering more, and quite to take the necessary measures to make sure that they simply being more than we would ever be as separate run an orderly establishment. states. Perhaps for too long Parliaments and Governments have allowed to go unspoken the contribution that Scotland makes to the United Kingdom; perhaps Scotland: Independence they have been equally silent on the benefits Scotland Motion to Take Note gets from being part of the United Kingdom. The referendum has focused our minds on what these 4.01 pm benefits are. Moved by Lord Wallace of Tankerness Those of us who reside in Scotland will receive a booklet through our door entitled What Staying in the That this House takes note of the constitutional United Kingdom Means for Scotland. The booklet is future of Scotland in the light of the referendum on going to every household in Scotland because we want 18 September. everyone in Scotland to have the opportunity to make an informed decision in September, ensuring that voters Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): My Lords, no longer feel they are uninformed on the case being there are 40 speakers for today’s debate. If Back-Bench made by the United Kingdom Government. It is a contributions are kept to around eight minutes, the booklet that sets out the facts in clear and simple House should be able to rise at the target time of terms, covering currency, pensions, trade and defence. 10 pm. This advisory time does not apply to the We believe that the evidence is overwhelmingly clear. movers of both Motions, my noble and learned friend The evidence is also overwhelmingly positive: Scotland Lord Wallace of Tankerness and my noble friend is better off staying in the United Kingdom and Lord Lang of Monkton, or to the opposition winder, having the best of both worlds. We have more the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy. opportunities and greater security as part of the United 1141 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1142

Kingdom, while also having a strong Scottish Parliament age move from other parts of the United Kingdom to with responsibility for important matters such as health, Scotland, and another 35,000 move in the opposite education, justice and transport. direction. It is estimated that some 30,000 people travel in and out of Scotland to work each day. Why As part of the United Kingdom the powers of the would we want to risk the protection that the UK Scottish Parliament will increase: we are already delivering economy gives not only Scotland, but England, Wales the largest transfer of financial powers in 300 years, as and Northern Ireland? Why would we want to put an set out in the Scotland Act 2012. Those powers will international border in the middle of all this? make the Scottish Parliament accountable for raising revenue, as well as spending public money. More powers Critically, why would we want to lose the formal use will follow. That is the firm commitment of all three of the United Kingdom pound? Let us be absolutely pro-United Kingdom parties in Scotland—not just by clear: in the event of independence, there will not be a the separate commitments that each party has made, currency union. I do not believe that that would be in but by their united pledge to deliver further powers in the interests of Scotland or the continuing United the event of a no vote. This firm commitment to Kingdom. Scotland would have no control over mortgage devolution, shared by both the Prime Minister and rates, and would be binding its hands on tax and Deputy Prime Minister, is no doubt something that funding for vital public services. may be reflected on in this debate. I see that my noble I did a Q&A session with some law undergraduates friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord Purvis of Tweed at Aberdeen University last autumn when the question are down to speak; they have made important of the currency came up. I made the point that the contributions to their respective parties on this issue. problem with a currency union would be that there The important point about the booklet we are would be no Scottish control over mortgage rates as sending to every household is that it is not based on well as limitations on tax and public spending. I said I mere assertion or speculation, which so many of the could not understand why any self-respecting nationalist Scottish Government’s proposals have been based on would want to sign up to that. At the end one of the in this debate. Their 670-page White Paper included undergraduates came up to me and said, “I am a only one page of costings and projections, based on self-respecting nationalist and I agree with you”. just one year’s financial information. In sharp contrast, The continuing United Kingdom would surely not our material draws on evidence from the Scotland put its taxpayers at risk of bailing out a separate state Analysis series. I welcome the fact that the Constitution and its banks. It is inconceivable that Parliament would Committee’s report gave proper credit to that series, pass it or that the people of the continuing United which concluded last Thursday with the launch of the Kingdom would accept it. That is why all three of the summary paper by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. main political parties have ruled it out. It is economic That paper—number 15 in the series—is the conclusion issues such as this, which impact on our daily lives, to a series of papers that have been widely lauded as a that affect the decisions of voters, and for many, comprehensive and detailed analysis of Scotland’s personal issues, such as whether we would be better or place in the United Kingdom. You might choose to worse off in an independent Scotland. That question call it “project fact”: more than 1,400 pages of analysis, once again provides us with a positive case to vote no. citing hundreds of independent experts and organisations. By remaining part of the United Kingdom, people in The series has provided the evidence base for the Scotland will benefit from what has been labelled, the positive case I wish to outline—the positive case for “UK dividend” which is worth £1,400 per year in Scotland remaining in the United Kingdom. lower taxes and higher public spending to every Scot. I first highlight the positive economic case. This £1,400 derives from the clear economic benefits Scotland is the wealthiest part of the United Kingdom that Scotland gains from being part of the UK: a outside London and south-east England. Scotland strong fiscal position; a large economy able to manage has the highest employment rate of all the nations in the volatility of declining oil revenues; stable borrowing the United Kingdom—it is even higher than that of costs; policies which are costed within the current the United States of America. Scotland has a lower economic climate; and a broad tax base, able to effectively unemployment rate, at just 6.5%, than the UK as a deal with an ageing population. whole, at 6.9%. Scotland is part of one of the six richest I am not claiming, and the Government have not economies in the world. All this, and much more, has claimed that Scotland could or would not be able to be been achieved as part of the United Kingdom—because a separate state—of course, it could. But it is important, of the United Kingdom, not in spite of it. Scotland’s too, to face up to the realities and acknowledge them. economy is not held back by our position in the union. We must combat the many assertions so often alluded That is an unfounded assertion that those seeking to by the Scottish Government. We must not allow independence regularly repeat. those who raise reasonable questions or concerns to be Let us be clear: being part of the larger United silenced by intimidation or fear. Kingdom economy provides Scotland with jobs, stability It is not only the economic case that demonstrates and security. It provides a recovering domestic market. why we are truly better together. I am sure that during In 2013 Scotland exported £50 billion of goods and today’s debate we will hear arguments covering a full services to the rest of the United Kingdom—four range of topics—the European Union, for example. times more than Scotland’s exports to the rest of the The UK exerts its influence in Europe on behalf of world—and imported £63 billion of goods and services Scotland and all parts of the UK on issues that matter from the rest of the United Kingdom. It is a domestic to people and businesses in Scotland, such as budget market that saw, in 2011, 33,000 people of working contributions, fisheries and agricultural subsidies. This 1143 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1144

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] In addition to the strength and bravery of our influence is exerted in Brussels, Strasbourg and across defence forces, the United Kingdom is a soft power all member states. It is influence which ensures that superpower. Our culture, education, business environment, Scotland has a loud voice at the top table, and will values and heritage help us to bring influence throughout continue to do so as part of the UK. the world and help us to use that influence for good. It is a different story for an independent Scotland. The United Kingdom is the second largest donor of First, there is the question of application. All 28 member international aid in the world—aid administered states need to agree the process and the timescales. from East Kilbride in Scotland. By 2015, this United There is no automatic entry or special procedure for Kingdom department, based in Scotland, will have Scotland. There are European Union-wide rules that helped to immunise 55 million children against preventable plenty of others have had to follow, so why should disease; will have helped to save the lives of 50,000 Scotland expect to receive special treatment? Perhaps women in childbirth and a quarter of a million new-born more crucially, there is the question of the terms of babies; and 60 million people will have access to clean, membership. No one should assume that Scotland safe water, thanks to the United Kingdom’s aid would be able to negotiate the same favourable terms programme. of EU membership which the United Kingdom currently Together, we have championed democracy and the enjoys: an opt-out from the euro; an opt-out from the rule of law around the world. We campaigned against Schengen area; and the UK’s budget rebate, which is slavery in the 18th century and drafted the European worth more than £3 billion to the United Kingdom Convention on Human Rights in the 1950s. Together taxpayer each year. we have resisted invasion and conquest. We did not Let us recall that no other member state has negotiated fall for the ideologies which blighted so many lives its own rebate. Instead, as a new member state, Scotland in the 20th century but together made sacrifices in would have to contribute to the United Kingdom opposing them. rebate like all others. Let us be clear that the rebate However, it is not only our heritage and our history. could not be shared between states; it is the United A more recent example is the United Kingdom’s Kingdom rebate, and a vote to leave the United Kingdom Preventing Sexual Violence initiative. This was the would be a vote to lose this. However, a vote to remain core theme of our presidency of the G8 in 2013, part of the United Kingdom would be a vote for each leading to a new United Nations Security Council household in Scotland to continue to save money as resolution and a United Nations General Assembly part of the UK’s rebate—a vote to keep the United declaration on sexual violence within conflict, which Kingdom’ s opt-outs and a vote to retain a place of of course led to the summit hosted by the Foreign influence at Europe’s top table. Secretary and Angelina Jolie earlier this month. The One of the other issues that I have encountered in United Kingdom was to the fore among the states your Lordships’ House and around Scotland is the which launched the campaign for the United implications for the defence of Scotland, and the Nations Arms Trade Treaty, which was finally adopted continuing United Kingdom. That is important in two last year. particular respects. The United Kingdom has the fourth largest defence budget in the world—£33 billion to I am not claiming that an independent Scotland £34 billion annually, behind only America, Russia and would walk away from these values that it has shared China. Crucially, Scotland benefits and contributes to with us over the past three centuries—far from it. I the full range of these defence capabilities. Scotland expect it would probably sign up to them. However, it benefits by having the security of the United Kingdom would lack the clout and influence to bring about such defence forces fighting for our common values and initiatives and, rather, as a consequence of independence, interests, wherever needed, across the world—both in would possibly reduce the United Kingdom’s ability combat and peacekeeping activities. to promote justice in the world. Scotland contributes to this through its 11,100 Regular When we say that Britain is a force for good in the Armed Forces based in the country, rising to 12,500 by world and that it punches above its weight on the 2020, alongside thousands of reservists. This is all world stage, it might seem like a soundbite but it is supported by a thriving defence industry employing true. We are an influence for good in the world and around 12,600 people. Many of these jobs are at HM we do punch above our weight. This has been Naval Base Clyde. We need to be clear—and again to recognised. Although they have said that it is a matter avoid the spread of assertions from the Scottish for Scotland, what Britain achieves together has been Government and those who would urge us to vote for recognised in recent weeks by President Obama, by independence—that companies based in an independent Hillary Clinton and even by his Holiness the Pope, Scottish state could no longer be eligible for contracts who all admire the strength of the United Kingdom that the United Kingdom chose to place domestically and believe that we—both an independent Scotland for national security reasons. Other than in world and the continuing UK—would be weaker without wars, the United Kingdom has not built a complex each other. We should be mightily proud of our role warship outside the United Kingdom since at least the across the globe, a role that we play together as a result start of the 20th century. Where they could continue of being a United Kingdom. Together, over three to compete, Scottish yards would be pitching for business centuries, we have made one of the great states of the in a competitive international market dominated by modern world; we continue to be a force for good in major economic powers. That is not, as some would the modern world; and I am confident that together say, scaremongering: it is a statement of fact. It is we will continue to be so for many years to come. I beg important that we get that across. to move. 1145 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1146

4.18 pm services and countless more institutions, all would Lord Lang of Monkton (Con): My Lords, I would remain with the United Kingdom. There would be no very much like to contribute to the main debate today obligation on the UK Government to bring them but my first duty and privilege is to speak to the report forward for negotiation. A vote to leave the UK is a from your Lordships’ Constitution Committee on the vote to leave the UK’s institutions. It is essential that constitutional implications of the referendum on Scottish those voting in September’s referendum understand independence. I am grateful that we are able to debate what is at stake. That is why the Chancellor of the the report so soon after it was published, and to the Exchequer, when he made it irrevocably clear that a many expert witnesses who gave evidence to us. shared currency would not be agreed to, was on strong This is my first speech as chairman of the Constitution legal grounds and was able to do so without qualification. Committee and, before addressing the report, I put on I turn now to the significant implications of record my thanks to my predecessor, the noble Baroness, independence for the constitutional institutions of the Lady Jay of Paddington. I know I speak on behalf of UK. Evidently, legislation would need to be passed by the whole committee in saying how effective and skilful this Parliament to facilitate Scottish secession from she was in the chair. The committee’s success in recent the union. That legislation would need to end Parliament’s years is in large measure down to her. legislative competence over Scotland, and it is likely I earnestly hope that the work embodied in our that extensive consequential legislation would also be report on what might need to happen in the event of a needed. In the period between a yes vote being delivered yes vote will turn out to be redundant. However, the and the date of actual independence, Scotland would committee felt that there had been relatively little still be in the union although it would be known that consideration of what the constitutional implications independence was on its way. of such a vote would be. It is well to be prepared for We were taken by surprise when the Secretary of the worst while striving to prevent it from arising. State for Scotland told us that: It emerged from our inquiry that certain legal principles “Unless and until the people of Scotland vote otherwise, the would govern the aftermath of a yes vote, some of UK Government will continue to act on their behalf”, which are founded in international law. Perhaps the and when a Foreign Office minister said: most important is that the rest of the United Kingdom “If Scotland votes for independence, from that time on ministers would retain the personality of the existing UK and in the UK Government will have a responsibility for people of the thus become the continuator state. This would mean rest of the United Kingdom”. that it would retain the treaty obligations and membership Surely it cannot be right that from the moment of a of international organisations of the existing UK. yes vote, many months or possibly years before an For example, it would remain a member of the EU, actual date of independence, the UK Government the UN and NATO and would not have to apply to would cease to act in the interests of the people of them anew. Scotland would become a new breakaway Scotland. I hope that my noble and learned friend will successor state. It would have to seek membership of be able to clarify the Government’s position on this at international organisations and, where it does not the end of today’s debate. It would mean that for that already have them, create its own institutions. That transition period the UK Government would not take was the overwhelming view in the evidence that we into account the interests of Scotland when making heard and we agreed with it. Whether by international policy on reserved matters, and Scotland would not be precedent, share of population and territory or by represented internationally. This could leave Scotland recognition by other states, there is no room for doubt; in constitutional limbo. all legal principle and convention point to that fact. We therefore recommended that the two Governments No realistic alternative has been offered, not even by should reach an agreement immediately after any yes the Scottish Government. vote to clarify the international representation of Scotland, This conclusion leads directly to the question of the and that during the transition period the UK Government division of assets and liabilities between Scotland and should take long-term decisions on reserved matters the rest of the United Kingdom. The most important primarily or solely affecting Scotland only after consulting established legal principle would be that they should the Scottish Government. I think that your Lordships be shared equitably between the two states. Fixed or will agree on the logic and common sense of that; it immovable assets, such as government or military seems to me to be inescapable. buildings, would automatically become assets of the The impact of independence on the House of state in which they were located. However, moveable Commons would also be profound. It is widely accepted assets, such as military equipment, would be subject to that the 59 MPs representing Scottish constituencies apportionment through negotiation. Similarly, the would have to depart the Commons. The committee apportionment of liabilities, such as the national debt, concluded that they should depart on the date on would also be subject to negotiations. All this is already which Scotland secedes from the United Kingdom. well recognised, but the status of the UK as the Until then, their constituents would still have a right continuator state has particular importance where its to representation at Westminster. Legislation to this institutions are concerned. effect would be necessary. The precedents are clear beyond doubt: the institutions Although those MPs would remain Members during would remain with the United Kingdom. Whether it is that period, it also seemed clear to us that they should the Bank of England or the National Lottery, the not participate in parliamentary business that does nation’s intelligence services or the BBC, the Supreme not affect Scotland. As one of our witnesses said, that Court or the UK’s worldwide diplomatic service, its would be like, research councils, all its administrative and regulatory “the West Lothian question on steroids”. 1147 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1148

[LORD LANG OF MONKTON] It would also be undesirable for either one or both It may be that the Commons could make internal of the negotiating teams to be unable to start work arrangements to address the matter or that Scottish because of avoidable legal challenges. We therefore MPs excuse themselves from votes on non-Scottish recommended that soon after any yes vote, a Bill business. Whatever the answer, we think that the matter should be introduced to this Parliament that would should be resolved quickly should there be a yes vote. devolve power to the Scottish Parliament to make It should certainly be settled and enshrined before the provision about a negotiating team for Scotland and 2015 general election. to create a legal basis for the UK negotiating team. As your Lordships would expect, the committee Such a Bill need not name the negotiators. The intention turned its mind to the implication of independence for of it would be simply to put the legal basis of their your Lordships’ House. Most Members of this House position beyond doubt. hold peerages of the United Kingdom. We do not The committee also considered the timetable for represent territories. As this Parliament would remain negotiations. The Scottish Government have set out the Parliament of the rest of the UK, Peers of the their proposed timetable, which would see Scotland United Kingdom would continue to have the right to becoming independent on 24 March 2016. We heard sit in it. However, under the Constitutional Reform mixed views on how realistic this would be, but the key and Governance Act 2010, all Members of this House point is surely that the date has no formal status. It is are deemed to be, an aspiration of the Scottish Government but the “resident, ordinarily resident and domiciled in the United Kingdom”, negotiations would take as long as they took. There for purposes of certain taxes. Unless that law were is no constitutional principle involved and there amended, it would mean that Members of the House would be no obligation on either side to meet a specific who live in Scotland, currently estimated at more than target date. 60 Members, would either have to pay tax in the rest of the UK or they would have to retire from the House I hope that in producing this report the Constitution on the date of independence. Committee has provided some clarity on what a decision taken by Scotland to vote for independence would Independence may also affect the six Members of mean in the short term for the constitution of the rest the House who sit solely by virtue of a Scottish of the United Kingdom. Longer-term constitutional peerage. It would need to be decided whether they damage is harder to assess. should be entitled to continued membership of the House on the basis of a Scottish peerage alone. However, By way of an antidote, I turn from contemplating these are matters that need not be decided until after what would need to happen if there were a yes vote to 18 September, when I hope that such decisions will the wider and more immediate debate itself and the become unnecessary. need to press the arguments for voting no. I reflect that Turning to consideration of the negotiations that 700 years ago today we Scots won a great victory would follow a yes vote, it seems obvious that just as against overwhelming odds over an invading English the seceding state of Scotland would negotiate in its army. It changed our history but brought us neither own best interests, so the sole objective of the negotiators security, order nor prosperity, all qualities that give for the rest of the UK would be to secure the best substance to the word “freedom”. It did not end the outcome for the people of the rest of the UK. All fighting, which went on. Just over 200 years later, we other considerations flow from that. We heard different were the invading army and England won, but still the suggestions as to who should be represented on the fighting continued. The lessons of Bannockburn make rest of the UK’s negotiating team. We concluded that sense only when considered alongside the lessons of while it would be important for the Official Opposition Flodden. Only in 1707, after the Treaty and Acts of and devolved Executives in Northern Ireland and Union that created one country—Great Britain—had Wales to be consulted during the negotiations, the abolished English and Scotland as separate states, did actual negotiating team should most effectively be lasting peace break out, and with it prosperity, intellectual small and composed solely of representatives of the flowering and national security. Since then, except for UK Government. That would, incidentally, follow the Culloden when Scots fought on both sides, we have precedent of 1922 and would seem to offer the best always stood steadfast together against common enemies prospect of successful negotiations within a reasonable and seen them off. Together we have prospered in time. peace and security. Related to that, we reached the conclusion, supported Next week Her Majesty the Queen will come to by our witnesses, that Scottish MPs, whether Back-Bench Scotland to launch the biggest ship and the greatest or Ministers, should not be on the negotiating team defence vessel ever built in the United Kingdom. No for the rest of the UK. Their duty as MPs would be to part of the UK could have done it alone. That aircraft represent their Scottish constituents. That would conflict carrier, HMS “Queen Elizabeth”, is designed to serve with the objective of the rest of the UK negotiating the cause of peace, security and freedom for the next team to secure the best outcome for England, Northern generation of all of us in this country and beyond. It is Ireland and Wales. Nor did the committee think that 100% British and a triumph of co-operation, to be Scottish MPs should play any part in debating or launched at Rosyth but bringing together the approving the negotiations; again, there would be a workmanship of thousands of skilled workers there, clear conflict of interest. Were there to be a yes vote, on the Clyde, on the Tyne, at Portsmouth, at Birkenhead we recommended that the UK Government should and in Devon. Nothing better exemplifies the extent to put before Parliament a proposal to put these matters which all the peoples of the United Kingdom are beyond doubt at an early date. better together. There is our future security. What a 1149 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1150 contrast it is to the alternative of a separate breakaway About 250 years ago, Voltaire described Scotland Scotland, isolated and unable to defend its own shores, as the place where, across Europe, we all look for our let alone the vast areas of open skies and seas to the ideas of civilisation—dear knows what he would think north and west. Not only would secession jeopardise today if he had followed this debate over the past few Scotland’s own security, it would also blow apart the months. I urge the leaders of the yes campaign to do highly integrated nature of the UK’s defences, in which two things in particular: first, to make a real effort to Scotland plays such an important role. stamp out the culture of bullying and intimidation The referendum in September is not just about that exists not just on the internet but in Scottish Scotland’s future; it is about the future of the whole public life today; and, secondly, to discuss seriously United Kingdom. In striving to save Scotland for the the legitimate concerns people have about the option union, we would also be saving our United Kingdom. of Scottish independence and to answer questions more factually and accurately than perhaps has been the case so far. 4.32 pm Those who are in favour of Scotland’s membership Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, of the United Kingdom need to raise their game, too. the report of the Select Committee on the Constitution In a university abroad about six months ago, I judged on the constitutional implications of the referendum a debate between two teams of students, one defending on Scottish independence is a welcome addition to our Scotland’s membership of the United Kingdom and debate today and to the debate that will take place one promoting Scottish independence. Those in favour over the coming months in Scotland. The noble Lord, of Scotland’s membership of the United Kingdom Lord Lang, has introduced that report with the clarity had read all the evidence and papers—many of them that we would expect from him, and the whole House produced by Her Majesty’s Government—and become will welcome his appointment as the chairman of the so convinced of the case that they went to the pub at Constitution Committee, given his history and his lunchtime, became complacent and, despite having all commitment to the issues on which he has spoken the arguments, lost the debate comprehensively to today and on other occasions. This is an informative, those who were more focused, determined and clearer thoughtful and stimulating report, and I agree with about their aspirations for the future of Scotland. many of the recommendations contained within it. I In the spirit of friendship to the campaign, I want believe that it provides a strong framework for preparation to say three things. First, united campaigns win over and a guide to the judgments that will be required divided campaigns. The lessons of 1979 and 1997 in following a possible yes vote in September. I hope that Scotland are that divided campaigns do not succeed the Government will respond within the two-month and united campaigns win. Secondly, if the Better timetable that has been requested by the Committee, Together campaign to retain Scotland’s membership because if there is a yes vote in Scotland in September, inside the United Kingdom is to win, it is vital that it we will need cool heads and steady hands to deal with broadens its engagement with people outside the the situation that emerges. traditional groups of political leaders who currently I also congratulate the noble and learned Lord, dominate the campaign. It must engage with those Lord Wallace, the Advocate-General for Scotland, on who, through the 1980s and 1990s, fought for Scottish his opening speech, which was, as we would expect home rule and devolution and then participated in from him, a positive case for the United Kingdom in making it successful in the early years of the new these times. No one is more trusted, in my view, on Scottish Parliament. Thirdly, and most importantly, it home rule and devolution in Scotland than the noble needs to outline a positive vision for the future of and learned Lord, Lord Wallace. I am delighted that Scotland inside the United Kingdom, campaigning he is leading our debate today, and I hope that he plays not to protect the union and the established order but a more prominent role in the campaign over the summer for a new order—a reformed United Kingdom with a months. new Scotland actively participating within it. The choice I want to confine my remarks to three particular is not between the old United Kingdom and some issues: first, the campaign; secondly, the choice; and, more autonomy for Scotland but between home rule thirdly, the future. There are just under 100 days to go or devolution for Scotland as it exists today within the before the referendum on Scottish independence. I United Kingdom and independence or a separate take no pleasure in seeing the prediction that I made state. We need to clarify that choice over these coming come true—I may even have made it in your Lordships’ months, not detract from it. House—that, as the day came closer, the gap between The United Kingdom is the most successful voluntary the two sides in public opinion would come closer, too. political union in the history of the world. Within Today, I am certain that we will hear speeches across that, Scotland has managed to secure a level of autonomy your Lordships’ House that will be almost unanimously that has seen Scotland as a nation improve and develop opposed to the principle and practice of Scottish since 1999. We have seen decades of population decline independence, but at this early stage in the debate I reversed. We have seen two economic shocks—not want to say that there are good people on both sides of one—where the UK helped and made all the difference. this debate in Scotland today. We should not allow the The first was in the early years of devolution, when bad behaviour of some to diminish the passionately electronics manufacturing—which the noble Lord, Lord held views of others, who seek answers to the problems Lang, did so much to bring to Scotland in the 1980s that they see in a complex world. All of Scotland and 1990s—moved east and left Scotland with a real deserves a better and higher level of debate than we crisis of employment and economic growth. We have have seen thus far. also seen improvements in Scotland’s health—for too 1151 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1152

[LORD MCCONNELL OF GLENSCORRODALE] the Socialists, meaning, believe it or not, the Labour long it was the sick country of Europe—and a vibrancy Party at that time. He checked me on that occasion in our culture. There have been significant, huge and asked me to confirm which party I meant. Then improvements in things such as recycling and renewables he said, “Always remember, Nicol, there are two socialist because of devolved government attention. parties in Scotland: the Labour Party and the SNP”. That is the case for devolution and home rule Alex Salmond does not say that any more. At that within the United Kingdom; it is the case for a modern time he may have been right; some nationalist parties Scotland inside a United Kingdom that is more diverse are socialists. Many are right-wing and some are in the and celebrates that diversity. If the case is made over centre ground of politics. Some nationalist movements the coming months not for a United Kingdom that is a believe in producing a bigger state—bringing together single state but for a United Kingdom that is made up the state of Germany or the state of Italy. Some of a whole range of cultures, histories, traditions and believe in smaller states: Bosnia, Croatia, the Czech futures pulling together in the national interest, then I Republic or Scotland. Each is very different—one believe that the people of Scotland will make a positive might say chameleon-like—apart from one thing. They choice to stay and build a better United Kingdom for will do whatever needs to be done to deliver the nation future generations—one that can protect our environment, state that they believe in. protect our security and deal with economic shocks but seize economic opportunities, too; one that can Therefore socialist nationalism of the 1980s—“We enhance our quality of life, build a fairer society and are the inheritors of Red Clydeside”, they used to tell do so as part of a community of nations. us—has changed to modern, civic, soft nationalism. Alex Salmond has changed too. He is now moderate, smiles, is nice to the Opposition and keeps his temper—so 4.40 pm they tell us. He does that not because that is the real Lord Stephen (LD): My Lords, as has been said, Alex Salmond but to deliver nationalism, independence, this is a vitally important issue. It is the biggest issue separation. facing the future not only of Scotland but of all of us What should be our response? There is a lot of talk here and all of us in the United Kingdom. Thursday of patriotism. I must confess to being instinctively 18 September is a very important day. uncomfortable with patriotism in politics. There are A great deal of very good work has been done by people who like to counter the SNP by saying, “I am the committee and I commend the noble Lord, Lord just as patriotic as you, Mr Salmond”. In debate, it Lang of Monkton, and the members of the committee works quite well, but for me, patriotism is a bit like on many aspects of this excellent report. Very good nationalism: it comes in many forms, not all of them work has been done also by the Secretary of State for good and positive; some of them are very negative. Scotland, Alistair Carmichael, and my noble and learned Patriotic politics, just like religious politics, can be friend the Advocate-General. We now have a very volatile and nasty. We have seen that in recent years, solid and comprehensive list of reports from the UK we have seen that in recent days. We must avoid a Government setting out the case for keeping Scotland volatile and nasty campaign. in the United Kingdom. The cybernats, the attack dogs of the nationalist The leaders of all the Scottish political parties who movement, are not positive people. They can get very oppose independence also deserve very significant praise. nasty. Their attacks on JK Rowling last week were Willie Rennie, Johann Lamont and Ruth Davidson nothing short of disgraceful. I am pleased that the have done exactly the right thing by confirming the Lord Advocate is considering prosecution of some of commitment of their parties to future constitutional the more extreme haranguing that she received. However, change. Particular praise should go to my noble friend it goes right to the top. The First Minister’s special Lord Strathclyde and to the Conservative Party for the adviser, still working for Alex Salmond to this day, radical set of proposals that has been produced after, attacked the mother of a disabled child who supported if I may say so, a few decades of slight reluctance. the Better Together campaign. The First Minister can It does political parties no credit whatever when do little better than say that there have been faults on individuals within them start to attack each other or both sides. That is not the sort of leadership that we suggest separate campaigning. Working together, as in should be looking for in this campaign. That is the the campaign to join the European Union back in the dark, divisive side, the unacceptable face of nationalism. 1970s, is what impresses people; and what convinces In being endlessly positive about the good reasons them is the guarantee that there will be radical new for keeping this country in the United Kingdom, we powers for the Scottish Parliament in the event of a no should not forget the nature of the challenge we are vote in September, and when that guarantee is delivered facing. It will be crafty, clever campaigning against us. by individuals such as Charles Kennedy, Gordon Brown Everyone knows that economics will be at the heart of and Ming Campbell and—if I may use the names by the campaign. The perceived wisdom is that if people which they are known and more widely respected in believe that they will be better off by a few hundred Scotland—Annabel Goldie, John Reid and David Steel. pounds, it could swing the pendulum of their vote These are the individuals who can be trusted to help either way. On such does the fate of a nation hang. deliver the no vote on 18 September. Surely the future of one of the most prosperous and In contrast with those names is the face of nationalism. successful nations on this planet should be decided on When I first met Alex Salmond I sat next to him at a better grounds than that. We are told by the nationalists: lunch in Aberdeen. I was a young councillor; he was a “Risks? None. Dangers? None. Negatives? None. Threats? candidate. I was talking about Scottish politics and None”. Authoritative academic reports are rigged, 1153 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1154 muddled or misleading. I have twice been promised Of course, all this is not simply due to devolution through my letterbox thousands of pounds more if I and the establishment of a new Parliament. However, vote for independence. That is the nationalism that we I suggest that it is part of it. I therefore rate devolution face in 21st century Scotland. and the revival of the Scottish Parliament as a success. I believe that we should be looking for a better way Of course, it takes time to establish a new parliament forward. At my heart, I am a liberal and a democrat. and for its members to get used to using it effectively. For me, those are enduring values. Nationalism is not It has, however, been done pretty well. So, too, has the what drives me; nor is patriotism. I believe in the work of the present Scottish Government. One does values that put people and communities first. I believe not have to agree with all of their policies and not even in decentralisation of power, not in separation. I very with their main raison d’être to recognise that there much welcome the initiative by the noble Lord, Lord are many hard-working, dedicated and effective Ministers Foulkes, and my noble friend Lord Purvis to take the dealing with the issues facing Scotland. initiative to try to achieve decentralisation of power The question now is: why go further? Why go from right across the whole of the United Kingdom. an increasingly high degree of autonomy to independence? The people of Scotland and the people of the I can see why, for some people, it is attractive—maybe United Kingdom are best when we are internationalist more so for young people who think, “This is exciting. in our values—values of interdependence and working It is not just a dull continuation of what was going on together. Those are the values that should drive us in yesterday. We can experiment with new things. Perhaps the 21st century, not the politics of nationalist division I can play a greater role”. The awful thing, however, is that blighted so much of the 20th century. The people that—to misuse that well known phrase—it is not just of Scotland and the United Kingdom, working together, for Christmas. It goes on, and a vote for independence have done great things. We have produced great scientists, cannot easily be reversed: it would take decades at the great poets, great politicians, great entrepreneurs, great very least. economists and great people. That is positive politics, I do not see this as a rather sterile argument about the politics of hope, the politics of what might be. whether Scots are going to be £1,000 better off or That is why we should say loudly and decisively, “No £1,400 worse off, although the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, thanks”, to independence on 18 September and yes to said that this might be a key issue, and I accept that. I a new Scotland in a better, reformed United Kingdom. see it far more as a question of whether it is right to dismantle a union which has been of such enormous 4.49 pm value to Scotland and to the other nations of the Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB): My Lords, it is very United Kingdom. good to have this double-barrelled debate. One sentence in the gracious Speech on such a fundamental issue The excellent report on the constitutional implications did not really seem a sufficient springboard for discussion. of the referendum—which were described just now by the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton—shows how I am one of those many Scots, in the past and the complex many of the issues are. There are also many, present, who have spent a lot of their career and many practical issues in setting up an independent working life outwith Scotland, but I feel myself immensely state. You cannot help asking: is it really worth the fortunate that, on retirement from public service 20-odd effort of doing all this? years ago, I was able to return to Scotland and have a number of different jobs in different areas of Scotland I shall mention one or two of the issues. Why set up in the many years since then. a completely separate foreign service when at the One of the most striking things on returning to moment there is a Scottish Government representative Scotland in the early 1990s was that deep, deep sense within a number of important British embassies, such of alienation from London institutions, from government as in Peking? Why set up completely new intelligence and from Parliament. That struck one enormously. I services? It is not dead simple. Why go through the therefore believe that the vote on devolution and the trauma of setting up a separate Scottish army when vote on re-establishing a Scottish Parliament was the existing Scottish regiments, and the Royal Regiment right thing to do. Indeed, if anything, it should have of Scotland, derived from such famous earlier regiments, been done rather earlier. have served both Scotland and the United Kingdom Now, there is a real sense that Edinburgh as a so well? Why replace the British Council—I should capital city has flourished since that period of devolution. declare an interest as a former trustee and chair of its Of course, Edinburgh has always been a marvellous Scottish committee—with something different when city, but now you feel a greater sense of self-confidence the British Council serves Scotland so well around the in the artistic world, as well as in the political world. world? Is it worth doing all these things? Surely it You can take the development of a huge number of would be a great diversion from what is really needed cultural facilities—the Scottish National Gallery, the to make Scotland continue to prosper, and what also, Scottish National Portrait Gallery, the National Museum as other noble Lords have said, enables the United of Scotland, Our Dynamic Earth and so on—as examples Kingdom to play such a major role in the world as it of what has been happening, or you can take a much does at the moment. We have all benefited from the more prosaic figure. I checked on the number of unity of the United Kingdom and from diversity passenger arrivals at Edinburgh Airport. In 1992, within that unity. when I returned to Scotland, there were 2,500 arrivals I have one final point. I suggest that it is a great per year. The latest figures I got were for 2012. The pity, to put it mildly, that the question is, “Should number was well over 9,000—a far greater increase Scotland be an independent country?”. Most research than at any other airport in Scotland. shows that people like to say yes when they are asked a 1155 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1156

[LORD WILSON OF TILLYORN] dry as dust and all the better for it. Let no one be question; they do not really like to say no. It is therefore under any illusions about the huge complexities of a great pity that those of us who take a positive view of disentangling the British constitution. the massive benefits of the union will have to tick a As the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Tillyorn, pointed negative box. When I come round to putting a tick or out just now in his examples, there are many things an X, whichever it has to be, with my hand I will be that few of us have thought about which would need doing that in the no box. But in my head and heart I to be disentangled and reinvented—and for what? We shall be saying yes to the continuation of a union really are guddling about in the entrails of the ties that which has meant so much to Scotland and the rest of bind us. It would be much worse than any divorce that the United Kingdom, yes to diversity within the union any of us have witnessed. and yes to continuing the devolution of powers to the Scottish Parliament, to bring effective government Last year, the leader of the Scottish Conservative and the raising and spending of money closer to the and Unionist Party, Ruth Davidson, invited me to people who are directly affected. chair a committee on the future governance of Scotland. The premise of this commission was a simple one: in 4.56 pm the event of a no vote, what should be the position of my party in Scotland. Our analysis was also very Lord Strathclyde (Con): My Lords, the right reverend simple. First, we said that the Scottish Parliament is an Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham has regrettably immensely powerful body. It has not always used the been called away but I very much hope that we shall powers that it has available, but it is a very powerful hear from him again on another occasion. body within the United Kingdon. I am a unionist. I believe that because of our shared culture, economy and geography the people of these Secondly, the Scottish Parliament can spend an islands are better served by being part of the governance enormous amount of taxpayers’ money, but it does not of the United Kingdom rather than being divided. I raise any money.Therefore, our primary recommendation am Scottish and British; I have no difficulties with any —to try to avoid that grievance culture that is sometimes of that. I wholly support my noble and learned friend apparent between Holyrood and Westminster—was Lord Wallace of Tankerness when he listed all the that the Scottish Parliament should be responsible for great things that Scotland has achieved over the past raising income tax, setting the rates and the bands 300 years as part of this extraordinary union, rather within Scotland, so that anybody earning money in than in spite of it. Scotland should be paying income tax, and that income tax would go to the Scottish Parliament and should However, there is a voice that is missing in this be spent in Scotland on the priorities of the Scottish afternoon’s debate: the voice of Scottish nationalism. I Parliament. It is a substantial and visible tax paid by know that this will sound strange, coming from me, many, and an attempt to bridge the fiscal gap: the but there is nothing like the power of debate. I do not difference between what the Scottish Parliament raises actually know whether anybody is going to speak up and what it spends. I believe that this will begin to in favour of breaking up the United Kingdom—perhaps ensure a process of greater accountability. the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, may be tempted to do so—but we need to hear another view. Perhaps the We also made recommendations on improving noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, and his noble friend legislative scrutiny within the Scottish Parliament and Lord Wigley will forgive me if I say that on this improving the checks and balances. But we also occasion, Welsh nationalism is not enough. concluded—and this has already been apparent in the course of this afternoon’s debate—that the United I very much regret that in my time in government, Kingdom is no longer at ease with itself. The referendum I did not succeed in getting Scottish nationalists into campaign has exposed some serious misunderstandings this House. I urge the Scottish National Party to about the United Kingdom and its role and about the nominate one of their number to sit in this House, and role of this Parliament and those who sit in it. It has if not I urge Her Majesty’s Government to invite a exposed many people who feel cut off from the processes Scottish nationalist to come and sit here. I can tell and happy to accept that silvery-tongued line from them from experience that the invitation of this honour Alex Salmond and others. The union has been threatened is rarely refused. We all know that there are eloquent like never before. and capable Scottish nationalists—I will not name them for fear of damaging their chances of coming I am not one who is hugely in favour of royal here or of embarrassing them—who would make excellent commissions and constitutional conventions. They have Peers even if we disagree with their views. not always succeeded in the past. But in rediscovering I am delighted that my noble friend Lord Lang of the glue that holds us together, we should use the new, Monkton has taken over as chairman of the Constitution existing institutions that have been created over the Committee. He brings an experience, a knowledge course of the past 15 years. So, the final recommendation and, if I may embarrass him for a moment, a wisdom of my committee’s report was that we should create a that is shared by very few: that of being a former committee of all the Parliaments and Assemblies of Secretary of State for Scotland, with all the complexities the United Kingdom to consider the developing role of that, and of being a Secretary of State for a of the United Kingdom, its Parliaments and Assemblies UK-wide department in the Cabinet. I am sure that and their respective powers, representation and financing. that experience will be brought to bear during the The noble Lord, Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale, course of his chairmanship and that we will all be the made some useful points precisely about this and it is richer for it. The strength of his report is to highlight important that we should try to get this right. If we the long and difficult process of division. The report is do, we might just be able to create a stronger centre 1157 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1158 and a stronger acceptance of what the union Parliament number of countries that almost certainly would not is for—the House of Commons and House of Lords welcome Scotland in with open arms. There would here at Westminster—with strong bodies in the countries have to be a fresh application to join, there would have and regions of the United Kingdom: in Scotland, to be detailed negotiations and there would have to be Wales and Northern Ireland. This prize is definitely a transitional period before Scotland could become a worth voting no for and building on the tremendous full member. During that period, a lot of the benefits institutions that we already have. that at present come from the EU to Scotland would presumably cease—because they go to the United 5.04 pm Kingdom, not to Scotland. I suspect that the agricultural Lord Richard (Lab): My Lords, it is a great pleasure subsidy that goes from Brussels to Scottish farmers to follow the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, once again. would have to cease during that period of association. We have not done it for a few years since he departed, I cannot believe that is very much in the interests of so I take great pleasure in following him—and I agree Scotland. with a great deal of what he had to say. Nor does the economic arithmetic seem to fit. This is a debate about the effects of the Scottish Trying to look at it as objectively as I can, the Scottish referendum result on the rest of the United Kingdom. case seems to be based on a series of economic I therefore hope that it is not totally inappropriate that assumptions, almost all of which are on a best-case someone who is Welsh should now comment. I declare basis rather than a worst-case basis. If everything goes an interest at the outset: I am as passionate about right, perhaps it will work. But in this world, you Wales is Alex Salmond is about Scotland. I have equal cannot guarantee that everything is going to go right respect for the history, traditions and culture of Wales with this sort of process, as complex and difficult as it as he probably does for those of Scotland. Additionally, will be. It therefore seems to me that there are dangers I have to recognise that Wales has a distinction that in this whole process. Scotland lacks; namely, a working, living language. I However, the matter does not rest there. I am in also believe firmly and deeply that Wales is a nation. It favour of devolution. Indeed, a committee on the is not a glorified county council: nor is it really a powers of the Welsh Assembly, which I had the honour geographical region. Its past and the way in which it of chairing in 2004, still forms the basis for my thinking has jealously guarded its culture and way of life give on this matter. It is the next stage after the referendum it a national character. that is important. It is said that one consequence of a Having said that, I am none the less convinced that no vote could be a change in the relationship between the future of Wales lies within the United Kingdom Scotland and the rest of the UK. Together with many and not outside it. The advantages of Welsh association others, I believe that a no vote would result rather in within the UK are apparent. Over the years it has further consideration of the constitutional framework brought Wales relative prosperity and a standard of of the United Kingdom as a whole. living which I do not think we could conceivably have One interesting thing that seems to be happening is achieved had we been an independent country of the gradual emergence of a consensus that the present merely some 3 million people. The United Kingdom constitutional structure of the United Kingdom is no has given us a degree of stability and economic protection longer fit. Too much power is concentrated at the that would be jeopardised in the event of independence. centre and too little has been transferred to the nations It is not for me, as a Welshman, to enter into the and regions of the UK. It is a mess, grossly asymmetrical details of the debate on the Scottish campaign. I shall and, frankly, increasingly ineffective. Various suggestions say only this: the note produced by the Library of the are being made on the issue of the further devolution House of Lords should perhaps be compulsory reading of powers to Scotland in the event of a no vote. All the for all the combatants in this debate. It is comprehensive major parties now seem to be in favour of more and accurate and, as far as I can judge, it takes a powers being transferred from Westminster to Holyrood. neutral view. It clearly demonstrates—this has emerged In parentheses, I make the point that, if they are in the course of the debate so far—the extraordinary transferred to Holyrood, they certainly need to be complexity of the process of Scottish independence. transferred to Cardiff and Belfast. I do not believe The number of institutions that would have to be that the priority in the event of a no vote should be amended, changed or removed and the amount of just to consider the devolution of further powers; it institution building that would have to take place should be to have a long, hard look at our existing inside Scotland if it were to come out of the United constitutional structures, which would have to include Kingdom mean that it would be an extraordinarily an examination of the possibility of developing regional complex and a very detailed and daunting prospect. or representative structures within England. At present, As for the benefits that the Scottish National Party in the quasi-federal system that seems to be emerging, claims will inevitably flow from independence, the one of the main problems is the size of England in claims are excessively optimistic, to put it mildly. They relation to the other nations. The exact position of seem to be based on Panglossian view that everybody London and the other major cities after any change in else is going to be nice to an emerging Scotland. I do the constitution is also profoundly difficult to clarify. not think that that is necessarily true for a moment. I These are great and difficult issues, but something do not think it is true of the rest of the United has to be done. We really cannot continue with this Kingdom that we will be particularly nice to an emerging lopsided concentration of powers, held together by Scotland that has just rejected us. As far as the European allegiance to the Queen and a rather looser one to the Union is concerned, it does not follow that it would Westminster Parliament. The West Lothian and Merthyr welcome Scotland in with open arms. I can think of a Tydfil questions are not going to go away; indeed, they 1159 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1160

[LORD RICHARD] representatives to discharge the essential tasks of government. are perhaps becoming more, not less, urgent. If they Once we accept that the Scots and the Welsh are nations … we are going to be joined by the Marylebone conundrum— must accord them parliaments which have all the normal powers of government, except for those that they delegate to the United consideration of the powers that London may have in Kingdom government or the EEC”. future—something has to be done. It has always seemed to me that that is the better There is strong merit in the idea of establishing a starting point for discussing what should happen after major inquiry into those constitutional issues. Whether 18 September. it is called a convention or a royal commission matters not greatly, but it needs to be wide-ranging in its I am glad to say that we have some new converts to agenda and comprehensive in its membership. It will the cause of a federal or quasi-federal constitution. require intense deliberation and may take some time. Gordon Brown, with all his experience as a former It may end up with a proposal for a written constitution Chancellor and former Prime Minister, wrote a very or it may not—I do not know how it would come out. powerful essay in the New Statesman last week, which These would be uncharted waters, but so they were for states: the Americas in 1776. What is important is that we “No one can now ignore the basic fact that the United should now start this process, and the Scottish referendum Kingdom is no longer and will never again be the all-powerful will give us that opportunity. centralised unitary state of the constitutional textbooks. With one parliament, two legislative assemblies and a high-powered London authority taking powers from the centre, Britain is not 5.13 pm the unitary state we were taught about at school”. He is right about that. He goes on in the same essay to Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD): MyLords,itisagreat say: pleasure to follow a Welsh voice in this debate about the future of the United Kingdom, which is what the “The system of sharing across the UK creates a form of equality between the citizens of the four nations that no other debate is about; it is not just about Scotland. I entirely group of countries can match for its depth and sophistication and agree with the concluding words of the noble Lord, this is arguably the defining characteristic of the Union today”. Lord Richard, and I shall come back to them in a These are wise and profound words, of which people moment. in Scotland should take account. One thing that I have found dispiriting about the An intriguing, additional argument has been put public debate in Scotland so far is that it has concentrated forward by Alan Riley, professor of law at City University too much on whether it will be cheaper or more —namely, that the advantage of the UK having a expensive to get out of the union. I think that the written constitution is that of protection against mission noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Tillyorn, is quite right creep from Brussels, which so exercises politicians and that it is missing the point to argue about £1,000 here press alike. He writes: or £1,400 there. We all know that divorce is an expensive business, but if it is the right thing to do we must bear “A British version would, like the German law, set out the the cost. My belief is that it is the wrong thing to do major institutions of the state, set out principles and enumerate fundamental rights. The British Supreme Court would then be and, therefore, the cost is irrelevant. What we ought to able to police the borders of the union’s jurisdiction”— be arguing about—and I welcomed the speech of my noble and learned friend, because he concentrated on that is, the European Union’s jurisdiction— this—is the benefits of the union and the concept of a “in a similar fashion to the German courts”. reformed union after a no vote in September. I think Again, I think that that is a powerful argument for that that is the right way to go. looking forward to some form of written constitution There have been a lot of debates about how long it and the development of a quasi-federal constitution would take for Scotland to become independent, if for our country. there were a yes vote. I do not believe for a second that I find that many people in Scotland on the yes side the nationalist Government are right to say that it can argue about the advantages historically of the Scots be done in six months; that is preposterous, for the making their mark in the world. That is undeniable—for reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Richard, has just example, the Jardines and the Mathesons in the Far spelt out. One cannot sort out the currency, membership East. However, they forget that many of the Scottish of the European Union and defence structures all heroes of whom we are most proud were dependent on within six months. An academic said last week that it mutual support from English organisations. For example, would take 10 years. That is perhaps a little excessive, David Livingstone’s remarkable exploits were carried but certainly it would take some time and during that out on behalf of the London Missionary Society, awkward period between a yes vote and actual while the Selkirk-born Mungo Park, who died on the independence Scotland would be in some kind of River Niger, relied on the support of the African limbo; we should be clear about that. Association in London. This is true of our inventors However, if there is a no vote, we should be positive as well, of whom we are all very proud. Sir Alexander about how we move forward on the back of the Fleming discovered penicillin but developed its use at declaration by the three political parties in Scotland. St Mary’s Hospital in London. James Watt developed My great guru in these matters was Jo Grimond, who his steam engines in Bristol and Cornwall and John wrote many years ago: Logie Baird developed his television in Hastings. These “I do not like the word devolution as it has come to be called. people, of whom we are so proud and whom the It implies that power rests at Westminster, from which centre nationalists talk up, were all dependent on the mutual some may be graciously devolved. I would rather begin by assuming support of the United Kingdom for the work that that power should rest with the people who entrust it to their they did. 1161 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1162

In my first general election manifesto when I was that will be it. Therefore, based on one current SNP party leader, I called for reform of the House of policy—indeed, obsession—there will be no turning Lords, but my wording was carefully chosen. I stated: back. Perhaps another referendum will be proposed to “The House of Lords should be replaced by a new, democratically anchor this embryonic constitution. There is nothing chosen, second chamber which includes representatives of the about that in the document but I recall that, when I nations and regions of the United Kingdom, and UK members of proposed a referendum on behalf of the Labour Party the European Parliament”. in 1996 to anchor the devolved Scottish Parliament in If you look back to the Bryce commission of 1918, this land, the SNP howled me down. which recommended that a reformed House be indirectly This approach to the deterrent is strange on at least elected by Members of the Commons, here is the two counts. First, the four most recent opinion polls in possibility of a reformed senate—an upper Chamber Scotland on the subject show, at worst, a split view of this Parliament—being elected by Members of the and, at best, a majority of the Scottish people in Commons, the European Parliament and the devolved favour of retaining the nuclear deterrent. Polls have Assemblies, and being a real, quasi-federal institution. been commissioned by the House of Commons Public That is why I welcome what my noble friend Lord Administration Select Committee, the noble Lord, Strathclyde had to say about what could happen after Lord Ashcroft, and, only a few weeks ago, the Sunday 18 September—a coming together of such people into Post newspaper; all showed a majority in Scotland some kind of constitutional convention or commission, supporting Britain’s deterrent. Last week, the Herald in which this House could play a distinguished part in revealed that the British Social Attitudes survey confirmed the future. all those polls. For the SNP to claim that the overwhelming majority of the Scottish people are against the deterrent 5.20 pm is just plain wrong; to now use a constitutional trick to Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab): My Lords, I am weld in a ban on the deterrent is a democratic outrage. glad to follow my fellow Knight of the Thistle, as the The other contradiction in the SNP’s policy relates third of three members of the Order of the Thistle to being in NATO. NATO is a nuclear alliance. That is speaking in this debate. in its fundamental strategic concept, accepted by all its We should not be in any way defensive about the members, which says that as long as nuclear weapons fact that this debate is taking place here in the Lords exist, NATO will “remain a nuclear alliance”. The and that there is no representative of nationalism and Herald said quite perceptively in its editorial a week separatism here in the Chamber. After all, the SNP last Friday: was once a republican party, it was once against “There is also the question of the SNP’s stance on Trident: NATO and it was once a socialist party. It has changed would the US and Nato be relaxed about one of the nuclear its stance on a whole series of issues, so it should powers being cut in two? President Obama’s comments would accept any invitation given. suggest he is worried”. A lot of issues will be covered in the debate and I Since then he has been joined in his apprehension could say many things, but I want to focus on the about the break-up of Britain by Mrs Hillary Clinton, future of Britain’s independent nuclear deterrent in the Pope and the Prime Minister of China. Are they the light of the proposals being put forward by the all wrong and only Alex Salmond is right? Scottish Government for the referendum. In the document The Herald’s sister newspaper, a quite independent published last week, a draft constitution for an newspaper called the Sunday Herald, which has now independent Scotland, the Scottish Government, the declared itself for independence, wrote in an editorial SNP, made it clear that the, last April that, “timetable for removal of Trident would be a priority for negotiations, “there is a world of difference between a state rejecting nuclear with a view to achieving removal within the first term of an weapons for itself, and a state disarming a reluctant neighbour. independent Scottish Parliament. The Scottish Government would That is Salmond’s scenario”. also propose, for the permanent constitution, a constitutional prohibition on nuclear weapons being based in Scotland”. It went on: They are therefore now proposing to make the “For Salmond to have credibility on this, he must produce expulsion of Britain’s independent nuclear deterrent a evidence Nato would side with Scotland over the UK on Trident”. fixture in a written constitution for Scotland. I do not think that the paper has seen any evidence—I Some 8,900 people work at Faslane, in and around wrote to the editor asking whether he had—because Her Majesty’s Clyde submarine base—plus there are a there is no such evidence at all. lot of other people in the supply chain, all of whom I negotiated the entry into NATO of seven new are endangered by this proposal. In addition, Britain’s eastern European countries: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, position in the world, perhaps even the safety of the Slovenia, Slovakia, Romania and Bulgaria. For them world, is prejudiced by this casual approach to the there was no picking or choosing. They and all the independent deterrent. So that is going to be in the written existing members of NATO accept the principle and constitution—quite neat, is it not? In doing that, the the practice of a nuclear alliance. There are assuredly SNP will remove from future generations the right to some non-nuclear members of NATO, but there are take a vital defence decision in any subsequent no anti-nuclear members of NATO—nor could there parliamentary debate. What price democracy and the be. There were difficult negotiations and talks on the right of the Scottish people to make a choice? Baltic states, with President Putin; on Slovenia, which The draft constitution published last week will was having a referendum; and on Slovakia, whose apparently be the subject of “consultation”. Sadly, we previous Prime Minister and possible future Prime all know what that means in the new Scotland. Presumably Minister at that time were bitterly anti-NATO. A host 1163 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1164

[LORD ROBERTSON OF PORT ELLEN] in Scotland. The noble Lord said—I think I recall of other complications were involved in that process. I correctly—that perhaps the United Kingdom Government know that entry to NATO is neither easy nor automatic. should assist the Scottish Government and have an One vote against is a total veto. early negotiation to see whether it is possible to help Putting the position much more eloquently than I the people of Scotland formally. I do not detect that can is Mr Patrick Harvie, who, as the Scots among us there is an appetite for that in the Government, and will know, is the former leader of the Scottish Green indeed why would the United Kingdom Government Party, now one of the parties in alliance for a yes vote. want to take on that role? An independent country He said last year: negotiates its own treaty; it does not subcontract that “The idea that we sign up to a nuclear alliance, the implication out to somebody else, least of all to the Government of which is to ask other countries to deploy nuclear weapons on of the country it has just sought to leave. Therefore, our behalf, and then have a debate about whether they should be I do not think that that will happen. moved from the Clyde is a nonsense”. Things are happening in other countries in the That is exactly right. There is a dishonesty at the heart European Union. In Catalonia, there is growing demand of the SNP’s policy on Trident, so it resorts to ever for independence from Spain, but it is inconceivable to more extreme gimmicks—such as this constitutional me that the Spanish Government—and they are not ban—while all the time seeking to reassure the public the only ones—would encourage and clear the path that Scotland will, after separation, continue to enjoy for Catalans to leave and become independent. Therefore, the collective security of NATO, the most successful taking into account the self-interest of other members defence alliance in history. It is neither credible nor of the European Union, I do not see that they will be honest and it is unworthy of a Scottish political party. in the mood to clear the path and make it easy for Scotland to enter the European Union under favourable 5.29 pm terms in the short term. That is a huge issue. It has Lord Empey (UUP): My Lords, I welcome the been glossed over but, as has just been mentioned, all opportunity for those of us from other parts of the the links and dependencies that Scotland has in the United Kingdom to express our views on the implications European Union could be thrown into jeopardy. for all of us of the proposal for Scottish independence. To deal with other issues that are not specifically I also warmly welcome the Constitution Committee’s economic, the union is not all about arithmetic. I take report, which had the foresight to set out the consequences my own region of Northern Ireland as an example. We for all of us should the Scottish people vote yes. This are hewn from the same rock as the people of Scotland area has been largely swept away under the carpet in many cases, and we have much in common. We have because people have not felt it appropriate to face up an industrial heritage and we suffered in many cases to some of these matters lest that encourages the yes from the downstream consequences of that heritage. campaign, et cetera. Given the significance of the We have soldiered together for centuries. We share proposal in front of us, it would have been foolhardy different religious and sporting traditions, and we for Parliament not to have at least looked at the share our geography. Our history is so intertwined that long-term consequences of the proposal for the rest the idea of separation fills many of us with dread. of us. I am bound to say, and this was brought forward As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of earlier in the debate, that what has puzzled me most Tankerness, said, of course Scotland could survive on about the campaign for independence has been the its own. I think that it would survive with a much assertion that because Scotland probably has a higher lower standard of living, but of course it could survive, GDP than the rest of the United Kingdom, that and the Scottish people have the right to take off in should be the plank from which to launch independence. that direction. However, I must say to them that there Surely the logic of that argument is that it is best are downstream consequences for the rest of us. On deployed by those who want to stay in the United behalf of my party, the Ulster Unionist Party, and as Kingdom. It is precisely because of Scotland’s membership our name suggests, I appeal to the people of Scotland of the United Kingdom that it is in the position that it not to leave us. We are partners and share many of the is in. If there was a union that was clearly failing the same aspirations. We are literally kith and kin. We people of Scotland economically, Scotland would not would not be well served by their departure. I hope have the economic position that it has. Indeed, it may that they will stay with us. As the noble Lord, Lord argue that it was in a better place before the union. but Lang, so eloquently put it, we can work together to the fact is that the union came about precisely because mould a stronger and better union. of a financial crisis. Therefore, what has happened in The people of Scotland ran this country in the the interceding years has been an improvement. previous Government. The Prime Minister was a Scottish However, I believe that we ain’t seen nothing yet. MP, as was the Chancellor from the commencement There is much more opportunity for greater improvement. of that Government until the end of it and the Secretary The noble Lord, Lord Lang, in a previous contribution of State for Defence, as well as the Secretary of State earlier this year set out why we could review the for the Home Department, the Department of Health constitution of the United Kingdom and what unionism and other departments. The people of Scotland, through could look like in the future. That is an element that their representatives in Parliament, were in the has been lacking in the debate so far. The noble Lord, commanding heights of the previous United Kingdom Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, in a previous discussion, Government only a few years ago. They invited President raised the question of the European Union, and I Obama to come to the G8 in Scotland. Prime Minister know that this matters a great deal to many people Brown was at the centre of attempts to solve the 1165 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1166 financial crisis. In other words, Scotland, like many of Secondly, there is the position of the Scottish MPs our regions, including that of our Welsh colleagues, prior to independence. It is, as the Secretary of State punched way above its weight. That will not be possible, for Scotland stated in paragraph 101 of the report, with the greatest of respect, in an independent Scotland. blindingly obvious that no Scottish MPs could be part Stay with us; work with us; and the next 300 years will of the negotiating team for the rest of the UK, nor be far better than the last. could MPs from Scottish constituencies be involved in voting on any measures concerning the outcome of 5.37 pm the negotiations, nor indeed in holding the negotiators for the rest of the UK to account. As paragraph 135 of Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market (Con): My the report makes clear, and this is worth repeating: Lords, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde referred to “We conclude that MPs for Scottish constituencies should not the Scottish Conservatives’ Commission on the Future be involved in holding the negotiators for the rest of the UK to Governance of Scotland report. I understand that it account, nor in voting on any measure which ratifies the outcome has had widespread coverage in Scotland but very of the negotiations. In the event of a ‘yes’ vote”— little down south. That is a pity because it is well worth this is the key point— reading. It sets out proposals for a strengthened Scottish “we recommend that the Government put before Parliament a Parliament in the context of a no vote in the referendum, proposal that would put this matter beyond doubt before the 2015 based on the strong Conservative principles of election”. responsibility, transparency and accountability. It is I agree with that. particularly interesting in the context of accountability, This brings me to my final point. It is clear to me with its proposals in relation to income tax and the that Scottish MPs elected to the UK Parliament cannot closing of the fiscal gap. continue to serve in that Parliament after independence I want mainly to concentrate on the Select Committee day, so I agree with the report on this point. I note the report. There have been many reports over the past observations in paragraph 66 by the noble and learned year or more from the UK Government, the Scottish Lord, Lord Hope, who will be speaking later, that Government and both Houses of this Parliament on under current legislation all MPs are elected to serve a the many crucial economic, fiscal, defence, currency full term and that: and international issues that the referendum involves. “Previous changes to representation, the franchise or the How much I agree with all the excellent points so well distribution of seats have come into force at the subsequent expressed by my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace general election”. and his opening comments on that. This report is In this case, I believe that that would not be tolerated the first proper analysis of the constitutional and by voters in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. As parliamentary issues, as my noble friend Lord Lang my noble friend Lord Lang pointed out, it would be made clear in his outstanding speech. It is clear from the West Lothian question—although I would put it the report how crucial they are. The report is a riveting as “the West Lothian question in spades”. Legislation and impeccable analysis and I warmly congratulate to remove these Scottish MPs after independence would the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, and her committee on it. be essential. What would the SNP Government say if I wish to stress three points. First, if there is a yes there were many MPs from English constituencies in a vote it is extremely unlikely that the negotiations can Scottish Parliament, perhaps even holding the balance? be completed by May 2016. It took our Economic This could have profound implications for the rest of Affairs Committee nine months to complete its early the UK Government at that time and involve the analysis of the economic implications. Since then it possible disruption of another early election at a time has taken both Governments about a year to do the when, given all the economic, world and security detailed reports on all the issues that need to be covered. issues facing us, we would least want it. It is clear that on the currency issue Scotland will We have tended to focus on all the other substantial not be able to retain the pound, but much flows from issues of an independence vote so far. We owe a debt that for the negotiations. It is clear that Scotland will of gratitude to the Select Committee for bringing out have to negotiate on entry to the EU and the eurozone. so clearly and so compellingly issues that are just as That will take time, with an uncertain outcome. The important as the economic and defence ones. I was noble Lord, Lord Robertson, has just made clear the born and brought up in Scotland and I owe so much position on NATO. On everything else the negotiations to the values, benefits and attitudes that my Scottish will be massive and complicated, as the noble Lord, education gave me. At a time of such turbulence and Lord Richard, pointed out. They are far-reaching in challenge in the world today, given the huge constitutional their implications and with parliamentary approvals upheaval and parliamentary changes of a yes vote so required. Meanwhile there will be a UK general election well identified in this report, and given especially the in the middle and no certainty as to the outcome of benefits to Scotland and the rest of the UK that have that, possibly involving a change in the UK Government’s been so well articulated by the Minister today, I profoundly negotiating position on key issues, as paragraph 93 hope that the United Kingdom will stay united. points out. There is therefore the possibility of reopening parts of the negotiations already working towards agreement; paragraph 116 of the report makes the 5.43 pm points on that very well. I agree with the report and Lord Morris of Aberavon (Lab): My Lords, the my noble friend Lord Lang today that any negotiations noble Lord, Lord Higgins, made an important point should take as long as necessary and should not be in his speech on the Loyal Address: that this House foreshortened in order to meet a deadline set by one should have more general debates on a whole range of party to those negotiations. subjects, whereas we seem to spend so much of our 1167 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1168

[LORD MORRIS OF ABERAVON] date of the general election in 2015. Looking at it in time discussing the lacunas—important lacunas—in terms of the interests of the Westminster Parliament, I undigested House of Commons Bills. I therefore welcome do not know why our Prime Minister agreed to the this debate to discuss the enormous constitutional closeness of the two dates given the possible effect on implications of the possible break-up of the United the remainder of the country. If the referendum were Kingdom. It is blindingly obvious that if there is a yes to go one way then, as we have just been reminded, the vote, there will be substantial implications for England, 59 elected Scottish MPs will be in the strange position Wales and Northern Ireland too. Yes or no, the case of having been elected to serve for the whole of the for a constitutional convention to look at the role of Parliament—as I think the noble and learned Lord, the nation states within the United Kingdom becomes Lord Hope, reminded the committee—but then be stronger every day. expected, on independence, to vacate their seats at We, the people of England and Wales, have not had Westminster. They could not in any shape or form the opportunity of a referendum although we, too, are continue at Westminster following independence. The much affected by it. The Prime Minister took it upon implications for the colour of the incoming Government himself to sign the Edinburgh agreement in direct in 2015, and for the coming months until independence, negotiations with Mr Salmond. I was reminded the are enormous. These should have been thought out in other day that the Act of Union and the treaty concerned agreeing to the dates of the events—the election on the union of two Crowns: the Crown of England, one hand and the referendum on the other. which included Wales, and the Crown of Scotland. I The report makes a very important point at believe that it was a grave mistake for the Edinburgh paragraph 63. It states: agreement not to provide for consultations with the “In the event of a ‘yes’ vote, the status of MPs for Scottish citizens from the other parts of the union. I particularly constituencies in the period between the referendum and independence regret that the people of Wales—some of whom I had day should be resolved quickly, and certainly before the 2015 the honour of representing for more than 40 years in general election”. the Commons, and serving as their Secretary of State The report rightly points out in paragraph 44 that, for nearly six years—were not given the opportunity “legislation to facilitate Scottish secession … may not need to be to play a similar role to the Scots in the contemplated extensive”, divorce in the constitution of which they, too, are an but that consequential legislation would. The amount important part. of legislation needed for the change in the role of the Come to think of it, my ancestor, Morgan Jenkin, Lord Chancellor was chickenfeed compared with who in 1706 was farming in Cardiganshire, was not the extensive consequential legislation that will be consulted either. Our extended family still farms in needed in the event of Scottish independence. These broadly the same area, of which I have the honour are the problems that will have to be faced. I regret to be the lord lieutenant. I thought that with the that those who drafted and—much more importantly— coming of universal franchise and democracy, we had agreed to the Edinburgh agreement did not consider moved on. these real problems as deeply as they might have. As the architect of the original Welsh devolution My earnest hope is that Scotland will not cross this proposals, with our Government, which after many particular Rubicon. If it did, it would be an enormous years of blood, sweat and tears, were agreed to by loss to the continuing contribution of the Scottish both Westminster and the people of Wales, I can be people, to the benefit of us all, to our work at Westminster quite sure that whatever the result in Scotland, there and elsewhere, which has lasted for 300 years. I am will be repercussions for Wales, and that the present grateful to the Constitution Committee for drawing Wales Bill now going through Parliament will have to our attention to this series of vital issues, only a few of be looked at again. We may indeed be driven to look which I have been able to touch on. I suspect that radically at federalism for all the countries of the many more important issues will emerge in the coming United Kingdom. months. From my point of view, however, the top priority must be for the Government to deal with the Barnett formula, which is unfair in Wales and which Governments 5.51 pm of all parties have failed to address. With the independence The Earl of Glasgow (LD): My Lords, I have been of Scotland, the Barnett formula will, I suspect, be so impressed by all the speeches so far in this debate irrelevant. that I feel that my shortened contribution may seem I turn briefly to the West Lothian question, which superfluous, but I am so concerned about Scotland’s the McKay commission sought to answer. Not fate that I felt it my duty to take part. As the date of unexpectedly, the matter is gathering dust in Whitehall’s the referendum draws closer my concerns grow stronger. pigeon-boxes despite the original coalition agreement. A year or so ago we Scots were assured that no The Government have not responded to the committee’s more than 30% of our countrymen would actually report, but I welcome the Minister’s statement today vote for independence in a referendum and so we did that we can expect a reply by 16 July. Given that the not concern ourselves unduly. Many of the English two debates have been conflated together, I might have displayed a deignful indifference and seemed almost thought that there would have been a little effort to unaware that this fateful referendum was coming up. expedite the reply to meet the needs of this debate. But now, at last, most Englishmen have come to It is unfortunate that insufficient thought was given appreciate that the possible break-up of the United at the time of the Edinburgh agreement to the closeness Kingdom will affect them profoundly as well, in spite of the date of the Scottish referendum and the fixed of the fact that they will have no say in its outcome. 1169 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1170

We have all got to wake up to the fact that the What possible reason is there for seeking a divorce cunning and some say dirty tricks of Alex Salmond now? Surely the SNP’s objection to a Conservative have made the prospect of an independent Scotland a coalition Government with whom it might not agree is real possibility. Yetthe idea of Scotland actually leaving not a good enough reason. the union is not just frightening, it is unreal. It is It seems to me that even the most ardent Scottish almost impossible for me to contemplate the break-up nationalist can appreciate that it is in his country’s best of the United Kingdom. How could it possibly benefit interest to retain his bigger and more powerful neighbour the Scots? Earlier speakers have pointed this out so as a partner rather than returning to the days before well. 1707 when it was his rival. I pray that my fears about My countrymen, who have had a disproportionate the break-up of the United Kingdom will not be influence on world affairs over the past 300 years, will realised and that the Better Together campaign can become no more influential than the republican Irish. talk sense into the 20% or so of my fellow countrymen Which of the world powers is going to care about what who appear not to have decided how they are going to Scotland thinks? Without Scotland, how much less vote. I would like the Government’s assurance—not will the world powers concern themselves with England just that of my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace, —or with whatever is left of the United Kingdom; I of whom I have no doubt—that they are doing everything do not want to denigrate the importance of Wales and in their power to save the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland—and how much less still if, two years later, it votes to leave the European Union? 5.57 pm How will independence affect the identity of Scots Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): My Lords, I was like me who feel both Scottish and British? With a struck by the litany quoted by the noble Lord, Lord home in Scotland can I no longer be British? Will I be Steel of Aikwood, of Scots who grew, and made good, stopped at the border every time that I travel between through the union, living or working outside Scotland. England and Scotland? What will happen to all those As I rise, the pride of English footballing prowess is Scots who live and work south of the border? Will trotting on to the pitch to play the might of Costa their place of birth still be their home, or will they Rica. It seems appropriate to recall Mr Archie Gemmill, become foreigners in their native land? In any event, I who 36 years ago today scored the finest World Cup imagine that we will all have to be issued with new goal ever—at the time. Had he stayed in St Mirren, passports. had he stayed in Paisley, had he not come under the The SNP is promising much to the Scots if they influence of the genius Mr Clough, would he have vote for independence, but why does Mr Salmond attained the heights that he did? If Sir Alex Ferguson assume that it will be in power if Scotland does vote had stayed in St Mirren, who sacked him I believe, for independence? What will happen if Scotland votes would he be the legendary figure that he is now? I for independence but a Labour Government win the really hope that we are not forced to choose between Scottish election? Will we still, for instance, have to being Scottish and being British. If we are, both sides scrap our nuclear submarine bases? What about the will lose. pound as Scotland’s currency? The pound is a British This is an excellent report and I am grateful to the currency. It does not make sense to me. noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, for introducing Total Scottish independence simply does not make it. I want to speak only on the premise, which is the sense and yet it seems that Alex Salmond has persuaded premise of the report, that Scotland opts for secession. a large number of Scottish people that it does. Nationalism I hope and believe that Scotland will not opt for drives them on and yet nationalism, as has been proved secession. What I would have said on the assumption so often in the past, is a dangerous and sometimes that Scotland chooses to remain in the union has been sinister thing. This was well pointed out by my noble very well said by the noble Lords, Lord Strathclyde friend Lord Stephen. Nationalism divides people as and Lord Richard, and I have little to add to that. well as countries and breeds bitterness and hatred, On the premise that Scotland opts for secession, I which have already crept into the SNP’s referendum agree with almost everything in the report. I pause on campaign. Salmond’s declaration that an independent paragraph 97, where the committee recommends Scotland will be a friend to England may be his honest that the necessary negotiation between Scotland and belief but that is not the way that some of his followers the rest of the UK before independence should be see it. Now is surely the time when we need nations to conducted, on the rest of the UK side, by a team from work more closely together, not to split up. Of course the Government alone. Speaking as a member of a more devolution for the Scottish Parliament and more disenfranchised diaspora of Scots, I see certain defects control by Scotland of its own affairs make sense, but in the Edinburgh agreement: the franchise, the threshold, the break-up of the United Kingdom does not. It is the question. There is something to be said for having nothing short of madness. an all-party team negotiating in that situation. I register As I said in my earlier speech, a week ago, my that as my one doubt about the recommendations of ancestor, the first Earl of Glasgow, was one of the the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Lang. architects of the Act of Union in 1707. In the decade I hope that in response to the plea made by the noble before that England and Scotland were close to being Lord, Lord Lang, the Minister will assure us that the at war with each other, particularly over the English Government’s policy on international representation colonies in the Caribbean. The union bound them is not as described in the report at paragraphs 47 and together and resulted in what Simon Schama described 49. The committee recommends that in the period as, between a vote for secession but before the act of “the most successful multinational partnership in modern history”. secession, 1171 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1172

[LORD KERR OF KINLOCHARD] It might not be possible to do what I hinted before “an agreement be reached between the two governments immediately and am hinting again that we should try to do. The following a ‘yes’ vote to clarify the basis of such representation lawyers in Brussels might well say, “No, we stick to the for Scotland in the period between that vote and independence letter of the law. We will not hear the Scottish case for day”. accession until Scotland is a country”. That would be That follows quotations from two Ministers who appear in line with past practice but of course we are in to be arguing that at the moment when the Scots vote uncharted waters because no member state has ever for secession but before the moment of secession the split before. It is possible to think of a member state, United Kingdom Government will no longer be interested or perhaps several, which would have an interest in in representing their interests abroad. ensuring that the Scottish accession was as prolonged, That cannot be right, as the noble Lord, Lord Lang complicated and difficult a process as possible. It of Monkton, said. If a Scot is in trouble abroad, he might not be an easy task but it is one that the United will be entitled to UK consular protection. If a Scottish Kingdom Government would have to attempt. company needs support, it will be entitled to the support Let us not exaggerate the difficulties. The accession of the UK Government. While the Scots remain UK negotiations themselves would be relatively simple, on taxpayers, they are entitled to receive the support and three preconditions, because Scotland is in good standing assistance of the Government at home and abroad. If under EU law now—all EU laws apply in Scotland. It an issue arises in the EU of particular relevance to is absurd when one gets a spokesman from No. 10 Scotland—for example, fisheries—in the period after saying that Scotland would have to take its place in the the vote but before secession, the UK Government queue behind Montenegro and Macedonia. That is must devote all their efforts to ensuring the best possible clearly nonsense and we should avoid saying such things. deal for the Scots. I hope that the Minister will be able Three preconditions would have to be met. First, to reassure us that that would indeed be the position the divorce terms would have to be agreed. You would of the Government. The Minister knows his Burke: never persuade the Brussels machine to get in the “Magnanimity in politics is not seldom the truest wisdom”. middle of a debate between Holyrood and Westminster. It would be mean, petty, vindictive and wrong to take The terms would have to be agreed and they would the line attributed to the two Ministers in the report. have to cover, for example, the currency question. I will make one cognate point, which is the one that With respect to the Minister, there is no question of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, kindly mentioned that I the Scots being obliged to join the euro. Scotland is have made before. Supposing we were in a situation in not qualified and will not be qualified. It would fail all which Scotland has voted for secession, it is my view—and four of the tests that you have to pass before you can I know the Minister had doubts about it when I put it join the euro. But the Scots would need to be able to to him before—that a responsibility would fall on the tell us, through their advocates in Brussels—if we were UK Government in the period between the vote for taking on the task—what currency they were proposing secession and the act of secession. We all know that to use because the Commission and the member states despite the bluster and bravado of the Scottish would ask. All that would have to be settled. Government’s White Paper, Scotland could not just The second precondition is that the First Minister pull up another chair at the EU table and carry on as if of Scotland would have to abandon the ludicrously nothing had happened. We know that we are in Article 49 ambitious aims he sets out in his White Paper. The territory.We know that there would have to be an accession Minister spoke to the issue of the budget rebate, in my negotiation. We also know that, legally speaking, Scotland view completely correctly. It is not possible if you are cannot even apply until it is a sovereign state—in other knocking on the door as an applicant to say, “I am words, after the act of secession. Scotland cannot sign afraid I do not want to pay the club subscription”. I a treaty until it is a sovereign state and that treaty do not think you can do that. If you are knocking on would not come into force until it had been ratified by the door from outside—no rebate. the Scots and all the other member states. I remind the Thirdly, it would be necessary for all other member House that Belgium has seven legislatures that would states to acquiesce in this entirely new process: an informal be required to approve the Scottish accession treaty. prenegotiation of the future terms of membership for It follows that there are two potential periods of a country that is not yet a country. There is absolutely hiatus: first, after secession but before a treaty has been no precedent for any such thing and, as I said, one can signed; and, secondly, during the ratification period. think of several countries, one in particular, which We cannot say, “That is the Scots’ problem”. We cannot might choose to object. Trying to persuade them not just shrug our shoulders and walk away from it. With to press these objections would be a task for UK every respect to the arguments of the noble Lord, diplomacy in the period between a vote for secession Lord Empey, it would be mean, vindictive and narrow- and the act of secession. minded—let us remember our Burke—and while Scotland It may or may not be possible but I would like to is outside the European Union we, the rest of the UK, hear the Minister—this time; he was very sceptical the would be responsible for manning the customs frontier previous time I mentioned it—address whether it is of the European Union, which would be in Belfast not actually what we should be trying to do. Not only Harbour. Goods coming from Scotland would have to does he know his Burke, he knows his Burns. If there be examined and customs duties charged. We would were to have to be a parting of the ways—and I hope be rebuilding Hadrian’s Wall. That would be the and believe there will not—it would be very important responsibility of the United Kingdom Government, that auld acquaintance should not be forgot because not of the Scots, who would be outside asking to we really do not want to have to rebuild Hadrian’s get in. Wall as the EU’s frontier. I really hope that we do not 1173 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1174 get there but if we do, magnanimity will be extremely Let us take the EU. I hesitate to venture into this important and the Government should act in the spirit immediately after the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of of Burke. Let us hope we do not get there. The union is Kinlochard—but nothing ventured, nothing gained. so much more—so much greater, so much bigger and If the only issue were Scotland, it is perfectly possible better—than the sum of its parts. to see how some kind of accommodation might be reached. But I am reminded of going with the late 6.09 pm John Smith more than 20 years ago to a conference in Lord Elder (Lab): My Lords, I wish to make a Athens. I remember getting off the plane in Athens, I number of points by way of intervention in what is thought in my innocence that I had covered all the already proving a fascinating debate. I have been involved bases and made briefs on everything that he could in one way or another in virtually all the stages of the possibly be talking about—international development, development of devolution over the past 20 or 30 years: expansion of Europe and all sorts of things. We got the constitutional convention, of which I sat endlessly down to the bottom of the steps at Athens airport to on the executive; the White Paper production when I find a phalanx of about 50 photographers and journalists, was in the Scottish Office; and, more recently, the all of whom wanted to know one thing. Mr Smith had Calman commission. been involved in devolution in Scotland; could he give The Calman commission reported almost exactly his views, please, on the Macedonian question? Mr John five years ago. I am sorry that the main recommendations Smith’s views subsequently expressed to me of this in it, which were really quite substantial changes to the were sadly not particularly printable. I thought it was tax powers, have still not been implemented. I absolutely a splendid performance that he put up because it really understand that time was needed to set up the new did sound as though he knew everything about the system. But I think it would have changed fundamentally Macedonian question—a class act, as ever. the context in which the current discussions are taking It seems to me, if you were a commissioner in place if that transfer of power and responsibility to Brussels, looking about and you saw Scotland, you the Scottish Parliament had already been achieved. saw Macedonia—both of them—you saw Catalonia, I am sorry that that is the case. and you saw the Basque country, and you were sitting I am not opposed to further changes to the Scotland in Brussels in a country that until very recently almost Act. But in a sense I am going against party leaders did not have a Government because it was split in who seem to be saying now that there should be a new two, you would worry a great deal about setting in set of proposals. I am, with a very small “c”, a rather constitutional process a system that enabled countries conservative person. My own view is that there were to split without any kind of consequences. It seems to really substantial changes in Calman and we ought to me that that is not a remotely credible option. see how they bed in before we start launching ourselves As to NATO—again, I hesitate to venture into into further proposals. I am not opposed to changes, things that my noble friend Lord Robertson has but for goodness’ sake let us make sure that we see discussed—the idea that you can somehow pick and what the next stage looks like. choose the terms on which you go into what is a The present nationalist Government seem to want nuclear alliance is frankly absurd. Failing to answer to deny the Scots a look at the new scheme in practice some of the questions on that is a major failing of the before going for full independence. I regret that. Indeed, nationalist position. And do we really expect the UK as far as tax powers are concerned, we should remember to take an entirely benign view of everything Scotland that the important tax powers in the original Act—and does? The Chancellor’s recent comments on this have they were explicitly backed by a second question in the been criticised by some in Scotland, but it seems to me referendum and so backed by the Scottish people—were to be self-evidently the case that if you are going to be allowed to drop by the SNP Government, because a different country, you must expect to be treated they thought that they were inconvenient to their differently.You cannot expect a Westminster Government narrow political case. They wanted to prove that the to respond, “Alright, we’ll have a separate country but Scottish Parliament had fewer powers than it actually we’ll treat it no differently”. That just seems to me to had, so they let some of them drop. I regret that. It be absurd. At least that is now out in the open and was always a mistake. It was always a miscalculation. understood. We should not let them forget that. Thirdly, I want to say a brief thing about more As far as the rest of the political parties are concerned, powers. Most of the party leaders have said, yes, they there has never been a bar to further movement. I will look at advanced powers. Care should be taken would not wish to imply that I do not want to see here. I have consistently argued for a proper degree of further movement, but I want to see where the present independence within the United Kingdom, within the very substantial changes go before we go down that road. European Union, and beyond. With its own tax powers Secondly, there seems to be an unwillingness by the in addition to all the rest of the powers Scotland SNP Government to consider that Scotland will not already has, we are just about there. I repeat that I am get everything it wants. I hesitate to venture into areas not ruling out more powers. I am just saying that we where people who know a great deal more about this should see where we are when the full package is in than I do have already spoken, but the idea coming place before we go any further. out of the SNP Government that Scotland will be able Finally, we need to be realistic. For all that appears to get what it wants in the UK, what it wants in in the Scottish Government’s White Paper, most of the Europe, what it wants in NATO, without any negotiation serious questions remain unanswered: currency, monetary and without anyone being able to question it, seems to policy and European membership are still left hanging me to be quite wrong. in the air. There is a Panglossian air about the SNP 1175 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1176

[LORD ELDER] companies. It is also true of countries. The noble view. With independence it thinks that all will be for Lord, Lord Empey, reminded us in his brilliant speech the best in the best of all possible worlds. I fear that that the union was formed to save Scotland from the world is a much more complicated and difficult bankruptcy after the collapse of the Darien scheme. place than that—much more complicated and difficult Some 300 years later, in 2008, Scotland’s First Minister than it is prepared to admit. If I am right, post- wrote a letter of congratulations to Sir Fred Goodwin independence will be far too late to find that out. for doing the deal that brought down the bank and almost bankrupted our country; indeed, it would have 6.16 pm been bankrupt but for the union that is the United Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): MyLords,itisa Kingdom. There were £40 billion of losses by the pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Elder, who Royal Bank of Scotland alone—one-third of Scotland’s makes a great contribution to this House. He does not GDP.Where would we have been if Alex Salmond had speak very often; I wish that he would speak more got his way? After 300 years’ experience of the triumphs often than he does because that was a very thoughtful and disasters that we have had as a United Kingdom, contribution. He is one of the architects of devolution, what kind of madness is it that cannot see that the to which I was opposed, so it is a great pleasure for me United Kingdom needs Scotland and Scotland needs to find myself completely in agreement with what he the United Kingdom? has said today about extra powers for the Scottish The brilliance of the Act of Union was that it Parliament. enabled Scotland and England to work in partnership, I believe that 95% of the Scots do not even know as my noble friend Lord Lang pointed out on this the additional powers that have been provided under anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. We started the Scotland Act, which enables the Scottish Parliament to work together rather than against each other. Scots to invent completely new taxes and set whatever level talent and ingenuity flourished on a global scale, protected of income tax it chooses. So I agree with him: let us get by the wooden walls of the Royal Navy. It is utter across what we have done before we start thinking nonsense to suggest that Scotland somehow lost control about doing any more. In fact, let us not talk about of its own affairs as a result of entering into the union. that at all now. This debate in Scotland is about In the past 150 years, almost half the Prime Ministers whether or not we are going to remain in the club that have been Scots or of Scots descent or represented is the United Kingdom, not about the rules and nature Scottish constituencies: Aberdeen, Gladstone, Bute, of the club. Rosebery, Balfour, Asquith, Bonar Law, MacDonald, I have something in common with Alex Salmond: Bannerman, Douglas-Home, Brown and Blair. These both he and I took exactly the same position on an people—who were not all Tories, noble Lords will important constitutional matter. We were both opposed have noticed—made a fantastic contribution to our to devolution. I was opposed to devolution because I country. For three centuries we have worked together. thought that it would provide a platform from which Now we have the NATO alliance, which provides the SNP would be able to go about breaking up our security not just for us but for our allies, and the United Kingdom. Alex Salmond was opposed to nuclear deterrent, which has delivered peace in our devolution because he shared the view of the noble time. The alliance helped to set Europe free from Lord, Lord Robertson, that devolution would kill communism. That is why President Obama and Hilary nationalism stone dead. It has not worked out that way. Clinton intervened, extraordinarily, in the debate; it is Now we are in this constitutional mess. You have about not just our security but the security of the west. only to listen to the number of speeches around this The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, was mocked by the Chamber because we have gone about piecemeal nationalists for a speech in which he underlined the constitutional reform. So I also agree with the noble importance of that question. Lord, Lord Foulkes, that now we are in this mess, we The only certain thing in this world is that uncertainty cannot unilaterally look at extra powers for the Scottish and the unexpected will happen. Who will pay the bill Parliament; we have to look at the United Kingdom as for removing Trident? I have heard estimates of as a whole. It is complicated and therefore we need to much as £30 billion—that is a lot of money. Will it be have some sort of convention. That part of the report shared between Alex Salmond and us? Some 10,000 jobs by the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, I entirely endorse. are dependant on Faslane. There are defence jobs on I will be voting on 18 September for Scotland, for the Clyde and at Rosyth. Does anyone here believe partnership and for a prosperous and secure future. I that an independent Scotland will have its navy built in will be against inward-looking separatism and against England? Of course not, so why does Alex Salmond the dissolution of Britain. I have to say to the noble assume that England would be any different and have Lord, Lord Stephen, who is not in his place but is a bit its ships built in Scotland? What about the service men confused, that nationalism and patriotism are not the and women who have served our country so loyally? same thing. Patriotism is a noble thing. It can apply to To maintain their careers, they will have to opt to be in people of all views and no views. I suggest to the noble the British Army as mercenaries fighting for a foreign Lord that he might like to look at George Orwell, who country or alternatively join Alex’s “Dad’s Army”, with wrote a very famous essay that makes the distinction all that that means for the reduction in professionalism. between nationalism and patriotism. That should sort Some 800,000 Scots live in England and 40,000 English out his views on that matter. live in Scotland. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Glasgow, “United we stand, divided we fall” is a cliché but it that yes, they will be made foreigners in their own is true. It is true of families, companies, political country. Their own children and grandchildren will be parties—as my noble friends are only too aware—and disenfranchised of their birthright. Bleaching the blue 1177 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1178 saltire out of the union jack will be a caustic and Bank of Scotland oil economist into the First Minister messy business. My noble friend Lord Steel says that of Scotland with a vice-like grip on the SNP, the divorce is always expensive. Divorce should never be Scottish Parliament and all that is happening in Scotland entered into lightly and it is certainly never easy. It is today. You may wonder why I will do this. The reason particularly awkward if circumstances force you to is very simple. Over the past decade, no other person continue living next door to each other for ever more. has had more influence on what is happening in Scotland Alex Salmond’s White Paper tells us that we can —and the United Kingdom as far as constitutional have it all ways. We can keep the Queen, yet the leader matters are concerned—than Alex Salmond. Yes, he of the yes campaign tells us we will need a referendum has a great team—Kevin Pringle, Stephen Noon and on whether to become a republic. We can stay in many others—but he brought these clever people in Europe if we need to, yet we have heard from people and has made sure that he has this control. His of experience like the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, that that combination of cunning and gall has outfoxed politicians is not quite so easy. Of course, we have heard from the in both Holyrood and Westminster, resulting in this Spanish Government on that, too. We can stay in referendum that could break up the United Kingdom—as NATO, a nuclear alliance, and be a nuclear-free zone. someone else said earlier, the most successful economic We can maintain our public services and be utterly union the world has ever known. dependent on the price of oil and the spending and Let me elaborate on the astonishing way Salmond investment decisions of multinational companies. We has done this. First, in the election of 2007 the SNP can keep financial services even though that will mean won only one more seat than Labour. They were a doubling the cost of regulations, which for one company minority Government and they won that last seat by alone, Standard Life, amount to £45 million a year. 40 votes. Yet even before that, Salmond had a plan to We can keep our banks even though their balance announce himself, as soon as he had one more seat, as sheets would be 12.5 times the entire GDP of Scotland, the First Minister of Scotland. He had hired a helicopter and we can do that without any systemic risk or any to fly him to the gardens of Prestonfield House Hotel, risk of higher interest rates. We can save the money where he had set up in presidential style a podium to from North Sea oil and put it into an oil fund, and we announce that he was going to be the First Minister. can spend it at the same time. We can keep the pound There was no discussion, as we had at the last general without actually getting agreement from the English, election in the United Kingdom; no Queen to go to, to who will guarantee Scots bank accounts and savings, say, “Can I get together with other parties and form a and at the same time will have no interest in how much coalition?” There was nothing like that at all. In fact, if Alex borrows, spends or taxes. you read Five Days in May by my noble friend Lord Although 80% of our companies employing more Adonis, you will see that people in our party were than 250 people are outside Scotland, we can dismiss worried after the last election that someone else might their increasingly vocal concerns as scaremongering. “do a Salmond”, as it was called. When he did that We can ignore the President of the European Commission, our party—for instance, my noble friend Lord McConnell the President of the United States, the Governor of —was so shell-shocked, and other parties so taken the Bank of England, the Permanent Secretary to the aback, that they accepted it. Therefore, through chutzpah Treasury, the Secretary-General of NATO, the Prime alone, Salmond announced himself as First Minister Ministers of Denmark, Sweden and China, the ratings of Scotland; and all of us in other parties were left agencies, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the CBI and open-mouthed. the trade unions, and make a great leap in the dark. We come then to the Edinburgh agreement, on Salmond, a gambler, asks us to gamble our children’s which my noble and learned friend Lord Morris did a future in a campaign—irony of ironies—funded largely wonderful demolition job. I will add to that: why did from the proceeds of gambling. We owe it to our winning the Holyrood election, getting 44% of the children to preserve this great legacy of theirs that is vote, give the mandate to Alex Salmond to have the the United Kingdom and reject the separatists who, agreement with Cameron that there was going to be a like Esau, would give up our birthright for a mess of referendum? We, the Labour Party, controlled the pottage. majority of Westminster seats in Scotland. It did not get 50% of the vote; he assumed that there was a 6.27 pm mandate and Cameron accepted that. We all accepted Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): My Lords, I am it; I say to my noble and learned friend Lord Morris pleased once again to follow the noble Lord, Lord that we should not just blame the Prime Minister. Forsyth. I will not follow his line of argument, although That means that we ended up with Salmond choosing I agree with almost all of it. I am also not going to use the question—all right, it was amended slightly by the this opportunity to advocate once again the case for a Electoral Commission—choosing the date and choosing constitutional commission or convention because that the electorate. He had total control over what was case has increasingly been accepted. My noble friend happening. He did that through his cunning. That is Lord Richard and a number of others indicated that why we must admire him; that is why I pay a personal today. tribute to him. No, I will spend the whole of my speech on one Look at what is happening now. The first point I thing and one thing alone: paying personal tribute to want the Government, all noble Lords in this Chamber someone I have known for almost 40 years, someone and everyone in the Chamber down the Corridor to whose cunning and chutzpah are unrivalled in British learn is that, once again, Alex Salmond is threatening politics, someone who—by his skill, ability and yes, his to do exactly the same thing with this draft constitution. courage—has turned himself from a little-known Royal As my noble friend Lord Robertson said, it includes 1179 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1180

[LORD FOULKES OF CUMNOCK] imagination of the electorate in Scotland they have to the question of getting rid of Trident. What does that understand that it is not just a continuation of what have to do with the constitution? It includes things we are facing at the moment. such as vital social services. What does that have to do Last week the Financial Times suggested in its first with the constitution? Why is he drafting a constitution? leader that we should have a federal country. That was It is because in the—I hope—unlikely event of a yes a surprising recommendation from that portal, but it vote, he wants his constitution to be the agenda: he is certainly a possibility.Indeed, it has been recommended wants to set the agenda. He is already saying that by a number of noble Lords in this debate. I suggest the Holyrood Parliament will decide all these things. that we need to indicate now that we want to see a As the Minister has indicated on many occasions, convention established into which the input will come constitutional affairs are a reserved area. Yet if Alex not only from existing Governments at all tiers, but Salmond has trumped us on two or three occasions from representatives of business, the trade unions, previously, is he not going to do it again, unless we are civic society and religion across the country, so that we ready to make sure that he does not, in the unlikely can see how the people can better determine their event of a yes vote? future. Some of those who are undecided in the Scottish I will take no more of noble Lords’ time except to referendum campaign seem to be affected by uncertainties. say that we must not underestimate Alex Salmond. I If we had such a convention, it would enable people to think that we are on course to victory; we have the have input into the outcome. That is extremely important right arguments; but we have to be very careful indeed. if our democracy is to express itself with constructive One of the things said by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, consensus. which I agree with, is that united we stand, divided we I have served on a couple of conventions, including fall. Over the next 85 days we have to put every effort the Convention on the Future of Europe. What I into this campaign. We must not underestimate Alex noticed about that was, how, when people got together Salmond, because his cunning, chutzpah, skill, courage at the beginning of that convention, their ideas were and gambling instinct could undermine us once again. not necessarily aligned but gradually, within the space We need to be united to make sure that he does not use of two years, they got together and much of what was those to break up this United Kingdom. recommended has been implemented, despite the referenda in France and the Netherlands. 6.33 pm I believe that if we were to announce now that that Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD): My Lords, the is our alternative intention for United Kingdom debate was opened with great éclat and great positivity governance, that would reassure many people who do by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of not like the situation we are in, and give some satisfaction Tankerness, who spelt out for the whole debate the to those who feel that the choice is between the status advantages of union partnership created over 300 years. quo and separation. It does not need me or anyone else in this debate to enlarge on what he has said because he has said it with 6.41 pm historical accuracy and great understanding. This whole House has demonstrated its hostility to Lord Birt (CB): My Lords, the United Kingdom is the separation of Scotland. However, we have to recall an extraordinary crucible of ideas, learning and creativity. that we are not just faced by a vote on the status quo Part of our strength is that, although we can speak or separation. We are facing the need to visualise and with one voice when fighting totalitarianism or at the express, in the remaining 85 days, our alternative opening night of the Olympics, we are also heterogeneous; vision for the development of the United Kingdom. we can celebrate difference and speak in harmony with We have gone through a period of time following the many voices. recession that has made many people feel distinctly I am as proud to be a Liverpudlian—I am sorry uncomfortable that this has not been the best period that the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, did not mention Bill for Britain, nor indeed for other countries. To some Shankly—as I am to be British. I am proud of that extent, overcoming the problems of the recession has willingness to challenge convention that inspired Alan taken over the political debate and has not given voice Bleasdale, Ken Dodd and the Beatles, but I recognise, to the requirement for a better United Kingdom. too, just how enriched I am by Yorkshire’s writers and I welcome the constitutional report: it is very detailed, artists, by Northern Ireland’s poets or by the new real and logical. The speech made by the noble Lord, powerful contributions that post-war immigration to Lord Lang, expressed it extremely clearly. However, the UK has brought us. Through the multiplicity of all we now need not just to express the union of views of those subtly different voices and accents, we can also about fiscal taxation, which was done recently by the hear something that we have in common: something leaders of the three principal United Kingdom parties distinctively British. That is something that the rest of in Scotland but to express a view about the structure the world can and does recognise too. of decision-making, how it can become more effective No part of the United Kingdom has made a greater and closer to the citizens of the country, and how we contribution to the whole than the people from Scotland. can realise this goal. The report produced by the team We have heard that in abundance today in this remarkable, of which the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, was the eloquent debate. The list of those who have made chairman, was a valuable suggestion; its concluding contributions is too long to repeat, but perhaps I may recommendation was that we should get the Governments be allowed to mention some: Adam Smith and James within the country together to discuss how best to Boswell, JM Barrie and Arthur Conan Doyle, Walter restructure the powers. If we are going to capture the Scott and Robert Louis Stevenson, Muriel Spark and 1181 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1182

Carol Ann Duffy, Ian Rankin and Alexander McCall Finally, as for the availability in Scotland of the Smith, Ludovic Kennedy and Andrew Marr, Billy BBC’s continuing services for the rest of the United Connolly and David Tennant, Armando Iannucci and Kingdom, there will of course be some transmission Irvine Welsh. I note that Irvine Welsh once said that spillover at the border, and BBC channels and services he loved the “density and complexity” of Jane Austen will certainly be accessible more widely in Scotland, and George Eliot. That can be no surprise, for they are but encrypted and available only on commercial terms. all part of the same British literary tradition. Those who will vote for independence identify and One reason for Britain’s exceptional creative and expect many gains, but I suggest that many of the intellectual vitality is our genius for founding institutions advantages that the most creative and inspiring talents which channel and foster our national talent. None of in Scotland have enjoyed for 300 years—of making a those bodies is more effective than the BBC. Illuminatingly massive impact on a big stage to global acclaim—will and tellingly, the BBC was founded and critically simply be lost. shaped by a young Scot of vision, a can-do engineer If Scotland votes for independence, the rest of the and a curmudgeonly son of the manse, John Reith. It United Kingdom will lose too, for in all sorts of was that bold Scot who bequeathed the BBC an enduring different ways the UK will make a lesser contribution conviction, a stubborn commitment to excellence and to the wider world. Our status and standing will be a lasting set of values. diminished. Worst of all, we will suffer the loss of the As we have heard today, there would be many Scots at the very heart of our affairs as admired and consequences if Scotland were to become independent, appreciated allies, collaborators and friends. but let us be clear what they would be for the BBC and for broadcasting in Scotland and in the rest of the 6.49 pm United Kingdom. First—I do not think that this has yet been properly recognised in the debate today—the Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab): My Lords, first, I BBC, like other national institutions, would lose 10% thank the noble Lord, Lord Lang, and his colleagues of its income. The recent brand-new obligations placed on the committee for an excellent report. In particular, on the BBC to fund the World Service, S4C and other I fully endorse paragraph 117 on the proposed timetable activities from the licence fee will in short order take for completing negotiations on independence by March a further 15% out of the pot currently utilised for 2016. It is a fact that the reorganisation of the police funding TV, radio and online services. In the space of force in Scotland took 19 months—one month longer just a few years, if Scotland became independent, the than for national and international agreements to take BBC as we know it would effectively lose one quarter place. What a fantasy. Therefore, the weight of decision- of its funding. Changes to BBC services would be making has to be in favour of sorting out these problems, unavoidable. however long that takes. I agree with that. Secondly, the BBC buys programmes of distinction I was in Barcelona with a number of colleagues a from other countries—most notably recently from few weeks ago, and I had the opportunity to speak to Scandinavia. Even with its diminished revenues, the the mayor, Dr Xavier Trias. They are very European in BBC would no doubt buy some programmes from an Barcelona. They want a referendum in Catalonia, but independent Scotland but, as with other countries, they realise that if there is a vote in favour of independence, only programmes in the “outstanding” category would negotiations with the European Union will, to use be purchased. Dr Trias’s phrase, be “very, very, very difficult”. If that is the case for Catalonia, it is also the case for Scotland. Thirdly, a smaller BBC would no doubt make some The First Minister has indicated that everything has a programmes in and about Scotland, as it does now in certainty about it, whereas we are entering a very other countries, but that would be exceptional, unlike uncertain world. That was made plain by his former now, when, as a matter of policy, a proportionate slice economic adviser, Professor John Kay, when he came of its budget is spent in Scotland on programming for to the Economic Affairs Committee. He said that the whole of the UK. If Scotland were independent, I the negotiations will be difficult and will take many, am very sorry to say that it would no longer be much many years. reflected on our screens and airwaves in the rest of the However, the most important date for us is United Kingdom. 19 September, the day after the referendum, because, Fourthly, the new Scottish publicly funded broadcaster irrespective of the outcome, nothing will be the same —the SBS—would have about a tenth of the BBC’s again. If it is a yes vote, the future will be irrevocably current budget. Like other countries with populations changed for England and the rest of the UK. of about 5 million, the SBS would tailor its programmes The global reach and authority of the UK will be and services to its limited means. diminished. Fifthly, like other broadcasters, I expect that the It has been quite sad to see that the rest of the UK SBS would want to acquire programmes from the has been allowed to almost sleepwalk into this referendum. BBC, not least those loved intensely by Scottish audiences. It is just a matter for Scotland, they say. However, this The BBC is, thankfully, independent of government, is not just about Scotland, with only Scots involved. If so whatever is said wishfully by some, the BBC will there is a yes vote, an important part of every one of have no alternative whatever but to act in the interests us will be lost for ever. If there is a no vote, there will of its licence fee payers and to seek the best possible be a demand for more devolution and decentralisation. commercial terms for the sale of its programmes in Therefore, my message today is that the entire UK Scotland, not least because of the aforementioned should engage in this debate from now on, and it should financial impoverishment that it will just have suffered. be a central participant in any campaign. 1183 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1184

[LORD MCFALL OF ALCLUITH] profound psychological wounds, and they will not be Sadly, devolution for Scotland has, for years, been restricted to Scotland. How do we prevent a “neverendum” implemented as a process, not an event. In fact, it is if there is a no vote? I was recently in the company of a even described as that by one of our former Labour senior SNP politician who said that if it is a 60:40 First Ministers. However, if we continue along this vote—60 no, 40 yes—this story is not finished. We path, it will produce such constitutional imbalance have to ensure that everyone on both the yes and no that, unplanned, it may implode politically. The ad sides signs up to a declaration that, whatever the hoc nature of the approach to constitutional reform outcome, they will respect the integrity of it and work has not served any of us well. It has to give way to a for the benefit of a better United Kingdom or an systematic, coherent and executed UK programme. independent Scotland. Given that present-day politicians Whitehall does not now work in the best interests of and the political process are already held in low enough the whole country. All of us see that. We should take regard by an increasingly disillusioned public, that is time—perhaps many years—over how we approach the least we require before 18 September. A serious this constitutional change and ask fundamental questions. and co-operative way forward for the common good For example: what is Parliament for? How best do we must start on 19 September. centralise and ensure that we get symmetric devolution and decentralisation throughout the country so that 6.58 pm we strengthen the sinews of the nations of the United Lord Crickhowell (Con): My Lords, during the debate Kingdom? Will a royal commission be the way to do on Scotland held here on 30 January, I said: this? Will that cede authority and control, or does “With children and grandchildren who have blood and genes there need to be a co-ordinating committee to make drawn almost equally from Wales, England, Ireland and Scotland, sure that there is the political charge and political I say with particular fervour that I dread the possibility of a responsibility to ensure that, part by part, we have a divorce at the heart of the United Kingdom family”.—[Official coherent approach to our constitutional change? Report, 30/1/14; col. 1392.] Mention was made of the former Labour Prime As a Welshman I had joined with those who had made Minister, Tony Blair. I am sure that history will show the positive case for the retention of the union. him as one of the most constitutionally reforming Today, as a member of the Constitution Committee Prime Ministers ever. However, I have yet to find a that produced the report so admirably introduced by substantial speech by him on constitutional reform. my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton, I want to say That is because, in many ways, like the Calman report, something about the comments that it has provoked. it was given away, it was bagged, and we moved on to One of the nastiest features of the yes campaign has the next agenda. We should learn from that and ensure been the flood of insults thrown at those who take a that there is change in that respect. different view. I suppose it was inevitable that the SNP would lash out at the House of Lords and a report by I mention the need for seriousness, and that is very one of its committees. A leader in the Guardian said important. I certainly did not see that when, two that the SNP ignored the substance of the report and weeks ago, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the that that was a mistake. The report, it suggested, First Minister traded fantasy figures on the monetary “is a serious attempt to look at some of the central legal and benefits of voting yes or no in the referendum. Alex procedural implications of a yes vote”. Salmond promised an independent bonus of £2,000 The committee, per household on voting yes, while Danny Alexander, “took evidence from some formidably well-informed witnesses”. with absolute certainty, heralded £1,400 per Scot if they voted no. I suggest that snake-oil salesmen could Exactly. This is not a report which sets out to make a not have bettered these efforts. It was compounded by political, economic or social case one way or another; the disgraceful Scotland Office PR on 24 June outlining: we have left that to others. What we have sought to do is to explore the constitutional implications of a yes “12 things that £1,400 UK Dividend could buy”. vote, and we have identified a number of important Included in the 12 things were: issues that need to be resolved between a yes vote and “An overseas holiday for two with cash left over for sun cream Scotland actually becoming independent. All our … Experience 636 joyful caffeine highs … Share a meal of fish conclusions are based on the evidence that was presented and chips with your family every day for around 10 weeks, with a to us. We heard from academic experts, the UK couple of portions of mushy peas thrown in”, Government and commentators on Scottish politics. or: We received a wide range of written evidence, including “Go for one haircut a month for over 3 and half years … you from the Scottish Government. The SNP critics have can go for significantly more if you’re a man”. taken particular exception to our conclusion that MPs That should never have appeared on an official PR representing Scottish constituencies should not negotiate document emanating from government. It has trivialised for the rest of the UK, hold those negotiators to and degraded the economic argument, and that has to account or ratify the outcome of the negotiations. be the one message that the Minister takes back so That conclusion was based on the views expressed by that that approach is disowned in future. As for the our witnesses, most powerfully by Professor Alan First Minister’s figures, to achieve this dividend of Boyle, professor of public international law at Edinburgh £2,000 he says they will transform the economy by University. The very fact that this matter has already increasing productivity by 1%. That has been a conundrum provoked strong reactions suggests that we were right for 40 years, and that too rests in fantasy land. to propose that, in the event of a yes vote, the Government However, I am worried by the degree of rancour should, in advance of the 2015 general election, lay and bitterness in Scotland. I am not just talking about before Parliament a proposal that would put this JK Rowling. This referendum will be accompanied by matter beyond doubt. 1185 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1186

SNP MPs have been equally hostile to our view that Scotland’s constitutional position to be put in the there is no constitutional principle by which the Scottish context of the whole of the UK. He argued that the Government’s timetable should bind the UK Government. voices of the Governments and peoples in Northern We say: Ireland, Wales and the north of England have to be “The UK Government should not put the interests of the rest brought to the table. At the moment, he observed, of the UK at risk by attempting to stick to that timetable. Any there is no table for these voices to be heard; one has to negotiations should take as long as necessary”. be built. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, has I am sure that Professor Tomkins is right but I doubted our conclusion in paragraph 97 regarding the would go further, as have many speakers in this debate Government acting as the negotiator. We attempted to today. We should not be awaiting the outcome of the deal with the criticism that he made in paragraph 98, referendum; we should be beginning to construct a where we proposed that there should be close consultation table for the voices to be heard. At Questions yesterday with the Official Opposition and the Governments of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, suggested the devolved Assemblies. a constitutional commission to examine further devolution and decentralisation. Others have suggested a convention. The Constitution Committee has not been alone My noble friend Lord Strathclyde suggested a committee in reaching evidence-based conclusions about the representing the Parliaments and Assemblies of the Scottish referendum. Starting in 2012, the British Academy whole United Kingdom. and the Royal Society of Edinburgh began a series of 11 seminars where presentations were made and Whatever method we adopt, we need to pursue discussions held. The record has now been published. with vigour a holistic solution to what is now an On reading it, I was struck by the way in which the urgent problem. The more that this Parliament makes evidence closely matched the evidence that we received. it clear that this is a question that is being considered Even the most passionate nationalists can hardly dismiss with urgency, and that finding a solution will be a high the conclusions of the British Academy, which was priority for the next Government, whoever forms that established in 1902 and is the UK’s expert body that Government, the more likely it is that the people of speaks for the humanities and the arts, and the Royal Scotland will want to remain within the union and Society of Edinburgh, which was established in 1783 and play a major part in fundamentally reshaping it—in is an enduring memorial to the Scottish Enlightenment shaping the new, reformed United Kingdom referred of the 18th century, representing all academic to by the noble Lords, Lord McConnell and Lord subjects as well as the arts, culture, business and Stephen—rather than see it happen without them and enterprise. face alone the huge uncertainties outside. Among the factors that the study by these distinguished bodies exposes are what Donald Rumsfeld described 7.07 pm as known unknowns. These make nonsense of many of the certainties contained in the Scottish Government’s Lord Gordon of Strathblane (Lab): My Lords, White Paper, among them the timetable to which I somewhat more than 50 years ago I presented a series have referred. Negotiations that would follow a yes of programmes on Scottish television called “Scots vote with the UK Government, with the EU and with Abroad”, which broadly celebrated the wholly NATO will all feel the impact of elections—and the disproportionate role that Scots had played in the outcomes, as we have heard during this debate, are building of the British Empire and, subsequently, the highly unpredictable. The complexities of the issues Commonwealth—whether by colonisation, occasionally on which negotiations will have to take place are by conquest or by administration. Scotland also benefited vividly described in five pages of the introduction. hugely from the existence of the Empire markets. My native city of Glasgow simply would not have grown Professor Vernon Bogdanor pointed out during the from a small village to one of the fastest-growing cities constitutional seminar that the Scottish nationalists in the world in the 1800s were it not for the demand for have various aspirations for an independent Scotland, ships, railway engines et cetera, all of them manufactured such as shared currency and social union, but that an in Scotland. independent Scotland would have no right to these In the world of ideas, too, the golden period is things. It could only propose them and see whether the known as the Scottish Enlightenment, as has already rest of the UK would agree to them in negotiations. A been referred to. Indeed, I remember meeting in America yes vote in the referendum is a vote to become a citizen a scholar at the Smithsonian who had no Scottish of another country, distinct from the UK, after which connections or background but who entitled his book it would not be possible for Scotland to pick and How the Scots Invented the Modern World—along choose which aspects of the union it wished to enjoy. with almost everything in it. It was entitled The Scottish An independent Scotland would have to negotiate for Enlightenment when it was republished in this country. those things that it now enjoys as a right. A yes vote is Neil MacGregor, the very distinguished director of a vote for uncertainty. the British Museum, subtitled a talk there: “When the With all the political parties now offering more Scottish Enlightenment encountered London globalism”. devolution for Scotland and Wales, another huge question Both are important because those were wonderful has to be addressed. Our own special adviser, Professor Scottish ideas, and nobody is pretending that they are Tomkins, pointed out at the same seminar that if there other than Scottish, but they would not have had the is a no vote the interesting question will be: what world stage without the British connection. That is happens next? He suggested that in the event of a no really the lesson that those of us who will be voting no outcome, what needs to happen is for the future of want to get across tonight. 1187 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1188

[LORD GORDON OF STRATHBLANE] told, would have been roughly the same £40 billion The UK now exercises its power through soft power. that RBS cost us. The interesting thing is that the Just as the whole country was genuinely proud of the Darien scheme was promulgated by a Scot, William way that London handled the Olympics, I hope that Paterson, who had also founded the Bank of England. we will have equal cause for pride in how Glasgow will It is undoubtedly true that the English Government handle the Commonwealth Games in just a few weeks’ were less than helpful, because we were two separate time. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has already given countries at that point. A lot of Scots Nats say that it the litany of Scottish Prime Ministers and senior was the Darien scheme that led to Scotland having to government officials. Anyone who claims that Scotland go into a union almost unwillingly—“bought and sold has been a downtrodden nation for the past 300 years with English gold” and all those phrases. But, in fact, really cannot pretend to serious consideration. it almost proves the Better Together point. Had we Scottish traditions and institutions have also been been part of the union, the Darien scheme might have allowed to flourish very freely by the union settlement foundered anyway, because it was a malaria-ridden of 1707. We all think of devolution as beginning in swamp on the Isthmus of Panama, but on the other 1999, but it did not. We have had administrative hand, at least lives would have been saved had we had devolution since 1885. In 1999 came democratic control England as a partner rather than a rival and formal over that—with all the positives and negatives that enemy. that brings, let me tell you. What is being proposed I really hope that Scotland votes no, because even now, I think, is adding fiscal powers. By and large I then, at the time of the Darien scheme, we would have support that. I genuinely support the points that the been better together. The alternative of a weakened noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, made in his speech, Scotland exercising even less influence on a diminished because I believe that politicians will be more responsible England means that the UK as a whole will be sidelined if they are responsible for raising the money they from the world’s stage. I regard that as a tragedy for promise to spend. the whole world, because I think that, with all its However, I would urge a couple of caveats about faults, Britain is still a beneficial influence in the world devolution. I am in favour of subsidiarity, but there and I am very proud of the part that Scots have played are some issues where we do not like the idea of a in making that so. postcode lottery. There are some issues that we want to be handled the same throughout the country. I 7.14 pm would say that pensions is one of them. I want everyone Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD): My Lords, I am the in the UK to enjoy the same right to a pension. I 23rd speaker in today’s debate and the 23rd male. Of would probably say health and welfare as well, but the 40 speakers who will be taking part in the debate, they could be argued about. There are other issues with the notable exception of the noble Baroness, where you may want devolution, but the practicality Lady Adams of Craigielea, who I was grateful to for of achieving it on a very small island with a land taking part in my debate last week, 39 will be male. border is somewhat limited. You may want, for example, That is neither representative of this House nor of the to have a higher customs duty on drink and tobacco country and I hope that all our groups may reflect on north of the border, but unless you institute a border why that is the case today. post, people will just drive down in pantechnicons and There will be a genuine tinge of sadness for me bring up booze. when I cast a vote in the referendum because I will Likewise the position of the economy—and Alex effectively be asked to choose between two things that Salmond knows this. This is why he wanted a third I love. I will also be asked, in a negative way, to affirm option, because at that point he was honest enough to support for what is a remarkable coming together of recognise that independence is impossible with a currency peoples, histories and cultures in our union, as we union, which he regards as desirable. That is why he have been debating this afternoon. Equally, there will wanted the third option. He now says that Scotland be many fellow voters who will simply be elated by the needs more immigrants and the Scottish Government opportunity to vote in that referendum; they hold would aim at having 27,000. Nothing is stopping the sincere views and I respect them for that. However, my Scottish Government having more immigrants at the sadness will be tempered by a quiet pride that this moment. The trouble is that immigrants do not go union, without resorting to state terror, armed conflict where Governments direct them. They go where the or repression from government, would allow itself to jobs are. That is why they all went to Glasgow in the be democratically dissolved because that was the 1850s. They came from the Highlands and Islands, democratic will of people who had chosen a different Ireland, and England, let alone abroad, simply because path from the one that we here would choose, as we Glasgow was the workshop of the Empire at that have been discussing today. They would be doing it point. The idea that somehow you can have a currency democratically and through a ballot. They want a union with separate economic policies is unthinkable different path for their country. and Alex Salmond knows it. It surely is preposterous I have not been able to see the deadly disputes to suggest that a foreign country will have more influence around the world since we have been having our over Bank of England policy than one that is an debate on Scotland without reflecting on how we are integral part of the same country—yet that is what the carrying out our process differently. That is something Scottish people are being asked to swallow. that should give us pride. Scottish Nationalists seek to The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, earlier referred to take credit for this and say that it is a peculiarly the Darien scheme. By a strange, uncanny coincidence Scottish characteristic in this debate, but it is actually the losses of the Darien scheme in modern terms, I am a remarkable thing about our United Kingdom that 1189 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1190 through tough times of great national peril where the What is the future of our union and how can we very existence of our union has been threatened by express it so that people outside Parliament are enthused foes from abroad, through times of imperial expansion by it and feel that it is representative of them and that when we have seen our position in the world grow they can play an active role within it? In many respects, exponentially, through times of famine or economic the case for many aspects of this union is made by the crash at home and through times of remarkable economic SNP, which, even with independence, wishes to continue growth due to international trade—with all our shared to be part of it: the head of state, the currency, the history—we still have a compassionate and profound BBC and pensions are all unions that it wishes to leave position that, if people within one part of our nation but rejoin, most likely on poorer terms. The noble choose that they do not wish to continue to be part of Lord, Lord Birt, referred to a former constituent of it, this union will end. The Constitutional Committee mine, Sir Walter Scott. In his “Marmion” he said, of your Lordships’ House shows the process that “Oh, what a tangled web we weave, could commence if that were the view. When first we practice to deceive!”. I share the position of one of the four Knights of That sums up the SNP’s position on the unions in this the Thistle who have been taking part in the debate land. It is worth pointing out to the noble Lord, Lord today, the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Tillyorn: I will Lang, that “Marmion” was about Flodden Field. cast a no vote. I have put forward a proposition for a conference of the new union to take place shortly after the general Lord Robertson of Port Ellen: There are two more election in 2015 to complement the conference on the to come. new Scotland that my right honourable friend Alistair Carmichael has announced will commence after the Lord Purvis of Tweed: And two more to come. I do Scottish referendum. The purpose of the conference not know what the collective noun for Knights of the on the new Scotland is to bring together those who Thistle is; maybe a contribution later in the gap could have already published their proposals for what further tell us what it is. powers should be provided to the Scottish Parliament, I will be casting my no vote and endorsing a bigger for making the Scottish Parliament a permanent part and better vision, which is that Scotland can have an of the United Kingdom’s institutions and for this opportunity and a thriving future as part of our Parliament permanently to cede authority over legislating union. Part of the positive future in rejecting independence on what are currently home rule areas. I believe that a is founded also on my commitment to do what I can in conference on the new union should take place in a working with colleagues across parties in this House similarly consensual way after the general election to and in other Parliaments in Wales, Northern Ireland address the relationships between the nations, Whitehall and the regions of England to help to bring about a institutions and the Westminster Parliament. It should refreshed union. Why do I feel that the union needs to last no longer than six months and should therefore be be refreshed? Noble Lords have already highlighted focused and inclusive. It should be government-sponsored, some of the reasons in the debate today. We remain a with the intention that it will result in legislation that too centralised state and this has skewed decision-making. can be presented within the next term of the United We established national legislatures but we did not Kingdom Parliament, and it should focus on entrenching establish fiscally accountable Governments. This has the legislatures in the United Kingdom, making their skewed decision-making in the nations. We have not legislative capacity permanent and making the relationship created a coherent narrative for the reasons why our between them and our institutions here in Westminster services for all the UK should be for all the UK, such and Whitehall decided not unilaterally here but by a as pensions, macroeconomics or single-market policies, bilateral process with them. Importantly, it should and why we believe it is better that some policies also address issues concerning the governance of England. should be decided at a national level. Without such a conference of the new union, without Without a proper narrative explaining why that is it being focused and without it being the intention, on the case, as the noble Lord, Lord McFall, warned us, a cross-party basis, to deliver legislation, we will perhaps we will be perpetually in an ad hoc situation with continue to be searching for the overriding narrative regard to devolution. I agree profoundly with my for supporting the union. Unless we do it, up to 40% noble friends Lord Stephen and Lord Steel of Aikwood, of the people of one nation in this country will continue who quoted Jo Grimond saying that devolution is to believe that their views and future aspirations are power retained in this place rather than a proper not being addressed by the union. I passionately believe decentralisation of power to the nations, and then to in the union but equally I believe very strongly that the regions, by the fact that they are there in their own work needs to be done to make sure that it respects right for better governance rather than just because it and is representative of their views. suits this Parliament at any given time. The noble Lords, Lord Strathclyde and Lord Richard, 7.23 pm commented that we will benefit from this Parliament Lord Haskins (CB): As a Protestant Irish nationalist being a more representative of the nations and the from the county of Parnell, I feel that I am straying regions within England. I agree with them. My noble into a family feud that has some quite bitter feelings and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness ably about it. I share the view expressed by the noble Lord, presented the strong opportunities for Scotland in Lord Strathclyde, that it is a pity that perhaps only one continuing in the UK, and I need not rehearse those Member of this House will state the nationalist case. If arguments. I hope that all of us will be reinforcing I were in Scotland, despite my nationalist background, them with passion and gusto over the next 85 days. I would have to vote no. 1191 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1192

[LORD HASKINS] important requirement: accountability. The NHS is I want to talk today about the implications for unmanageably large and short on accountability, as England, in the north of which I have lived for 50 years, is the school organisational structure. of what will happen. Whatever the result on 18 September, Ironically, but for different reasons, the Conservatives things will never be the same again and the constitutional and Labour both pursued this greater centralisation, consequences for England will be profound. More and Labour because it believed that the state knows best more devolution to the Celtic nations means more and and the Conservatives because they believed that the more problems for England, leaving England with the town halls were a hotbed of Trotskyites. It is so most centralised system of government in any major different elsewhere in the big democracies. The US, democracy, a point that Scottish nationalists are not Germany, Australia, Canada and Spain all operate slow to point out. quasi-federal systems of government, and big corporations Economic and political power outside London has do not flock to Washington, Berlin, Canberra, Ottawa been drastically eroded over the past 70 years. One or Madrid. Boeing is in Seattle, McDonald’s is in hundred years ago, the vast majority—70% to 80%—of Chicago, Siemens and BMW are in Munich and Airbus the top 100 companies had their headquarters outside is in Toulouse and Hamburg. London. Today the figure is less than 10%. Until the In the English regions outside London, it is my Second World War, health, education and a host of guess that 80% or 90% of decisions affecting the local other public services were the responsibility of local economy are taken elsewhere, either in London by government. Today, local government empties the bins Whitehall and businesses located there or internationally. and carries out a narrow range of administrative The centralised so-called controls of the banks are a duties under the close scrutiny of Whitehall, though far cry from the local bank manager who knew his Ministers are still quick to blame local authorities customers and the local economic conditions. when things go wrong. Because the role of local The quality of administration in Whitehall is poor. government has been so severely diminished, the quality When I worked in the Cabinet Office a few years ago, I of local political leadership has declined. It is a perfect was struck by the contrast between the effectiveness of Catch-22. Oh, for the days of Joe Chamberlain and the civil servants in Edinburgh and London. In Edinburgh his like. everyone knew each other, discussions were open and The big companies have followed the trend and decisions were arrived at expeditiously. In London migrated en masse to London. In so doing, they have people worked in dysfunctional silos, and had poor lost their sense of civic pride and local community interdepartmental communications and woefully slow engagement, which was such a feature of Victorian decision-making processes. People paid lip-service to Britain. Who can forget the remarkable achievements collaboration. on behalf of their local communities of the Cadburys So, post-18 September, things will have to change. in Birmingham, the Rowntrees in York, Rank in Hull, However, do the politicians have an appetite for change the Lever brothers in the north-west and the banks in in the light of a number of failed attempts at local East Anglia, Bristol, Edinburgh and elsewhere? I government reform? The Heath Government changed remember the sad day when Cadbury relocated from the boundaries but little else. Then Major changed the Birmingham to Berkeley Square. Clearly the game was boundaries again, but little else. The Blair Government up. The municipal buildings built around the country went for nine regions and, although the economic by the Victorians are a magnificent manifestation of structures, the regional development agencies, were not partnership and commitment between local government bad—I declare an interest as a long-time board member and business. The railway network was created by the of Yorkshire Forward—the plan to create democratically efforts of local business entrepreneurs, not central elected assemblies never got off the ground. The present government. Britain’s local structure of government Government scrapped the RDAs and replaced them was the envy of the world. Today it is a shadow of its with local enterprise partnerships, more modest in size proud past. and ambition. I chair the Humber LEP. Why did this happen? In part, it was a sign of Irrespective of past failures, reform must once more progress on two fronts. RA Butler’s Education Act be on the agenda post-18 September, and here is what 1944 established national standards but, while the I would do. First, there are far too many local authorities national Government established strategy, it was left in England—400 of them. They should be reduced to to local authorities to deliver. Over time, Whitehall 80 or 90, as was suggested by Redcliffe-Maud in the has steadily eroded localism so that today it is scarcely 60s. I would gradually increase their responsibility for an exaggeration to say that, relying on the regulatory delivering public services, including health and education, powers of Ofsted, Michael Gove has 23,000 head but only when they had proved their competence. teachers reporting to him. Nye Bevan’s NHS structures Secondly, there are too many LEPs—39 of them. I were even more centralist. When Herbert Morrison, suggest that economic development boundaries should a former leader of the GLC and a great champion be drawn around large cities, with a few quasi-rural of local government, argued that the day-to-day exceptions such as Cumbria, Devon and Cornwall. administration of the NHS should remain the This would result in fewer than 20 LEPs with an responsibility of local government, he was overruled average population of nearly 3 million people. Thirdly, by Mr Bevan who famously asserted that Whitehall I would treat the south-east as a special case. About needed to hear the rattle of every bedpan that fell on 20 million people live east of a line from Peterborough the hospital floor. To be fair, Bevan and Butler wanted to Portsmouth. They are, for the most part, heavily to establish consistent, higher standards across the under the influence of London. Their local government country, but in so doing they undermined an equally arrangements should reflect that dependency. 1193 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1194

It is much more difficult to reverse the centralisation be deprived—if they did that. I profoundly hope, as and globalisation of big business, but if the big Whitehall I think virtually everybody who has spoken in this departments were to be devolved to the regions—BIS debate hopes, that they will not. to Birmingham, the NHS to Leeds, Education to Only 9.1% of the population of the United Kingdom Manchester, Defence to Bristol, DEFRA to York, lives in Scotland. I will not repeat all the lists of Prime DWP to Newcastle—might not the big companies, Ministers, economists, scientists and writers who have keen to be close to where the power is, follow suit? Of been referred to this afternoon. But if any part of any course, none of this is likely to happen. Today’s politicians country has punched above its weight, Scotland, which and business leaders lack the vision and risk-taking is a nation, has punched above its weight in the United inclinations of their Victorian forebears. Besides, they Kingdom—and I want it to continue to do so. love the metropolitan life of London. Still, perhaps In 1984, I had a very interesting experience during the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after his great speech the long Summer Recess from the other place. I spent yesterday, will prove me wrong. The status quo is not a semester at the University of Austin in Texas. It was an option after 18 September and, if we do not take the time of the presidential election and a number of action soon, we are storing up grave political and the cars that were driving around had a little sticker on economic problems for England in future. the back that said, “Secede”. I said to my Texas host, “Some of them talk as if they mean it”. “Oh”, he said, 7.31 pm “that’s just the heart expressing itself—the head knows Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, I feel that this is that it would be total madness”. rather the graveyard slot. Those who have delivered Much as I respect those who have a different point their speeches have departed to refresh themselves, of view, I hope that those who are contemplating while a few are waiting to enlighten us. Having listened voting yes in September, and still more those who have to every single speech, as has my noble and learned not yet made up their mind, will reflect on what a great friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, to whom I pay a country this is—and it is a great country because of real tribute for his stamina and resilience, I might be the contribution from Scotland, which is way beyond tempted to go and have a little refreshment later myself. its percentage of the population. I very much hope Whether I am driving along the lovely lanes of that there will be a resounding vote on 18 September, Lincolnshire, as I was last week, or driving in Scotland, and that the people of Scotland will say that, yes, they where I spent the whole of the war as a young boy, want to remain part of the United Kingdom. I do not growing up— want my granddaughter to become a citizen in a foreign land, and she does not want her cousins—the children of my other son, who live in London—to be Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Which war? foreigners, with different passports. Somebody talked about borders. I had the great Lord Cormack: Not the First World War, like the good fortune to be the chairman of the Northern noble Lord opposite; I cannot claim to rival his longevity. Ireland Affairs Select Committee in the last Parliament, But whether I am driving there or in Scotland, I feel, and I saw the difficulties created by a border there. in the words of Walter Scott, already quoted by the Unless you have absolute similarity between taxes and noble Lord, Lord Purvis: revenues, what it does among other things is to encourage “This is my own, my native land!”. organised crime, which is a very real cross-border I am British. My family comes originally from problem between the Republic and Northern Ireland. Scotland. My elder son, known to the noble Lord, I rejoice at the settlement, and I am not one of those Lord Purvis, is settled in Scotland and I do not think who feels deeply unhappy about Her Majesty receiving will ever leave, and my eldest grandchild will have a Mr McGuinness; we have made enormous progress. vote on 18 September. I deeply regret that I shall not But the fact is that there are two countries on one have one. But I very much hope that she, along with island and there is a border, and that creates problems. the other enfranchised 16 year-olds, will vote a resounding We do not want to have that here. no, and I am confident that she will. She spent some We have to recognise that we are exceptionally time with us a fortnight ago and we were talking about fortunate. My noble friend Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, this. In her school in Edinburgh, they had had a poll of and the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, whom I regard all the girls, and 90% had voted no. In the boys’ school very much as a friend in the context of this and many next door, she was slightly disappointed that it was other issues, pointed to the brilliance of Alex Salmond. only 88%. That gave me some real encouragement. I referred to that before in this House. But we need to Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of have robust debate, and what he has been saying is Aberavon, I regretted the way in which Mr Salmond very misleading. We have had many examples, quoted wound the Prime Minister around his finger in getting during the last three and a half hours. Salmond’s the 16 year-old vote, but I had some reassurance from approach really is that of eating the cake and having it, what she told me. When I asked her why, she said, to put the phrase the right way round. I have often “Because we don’t want to cut off our opportunities”— thought, particularly over the past few weeks, of the and that, in a sense, is what it is really about. reputed remark of the great conductor Richter to the I have talked before in this House about the difference third flute, “Your damned nonsense can I stand twice being between remaining in a Great Britain or in a or once, but sometimes always, by God, never”. The little Scotland. Of course, Scotland could be independent people of Scotland are being misled. As my noble and go it alone, but we would be deprived—and I friend Lord Forsyth said, they are being asked to take believe that my friends and family in Scotland would a leap into the dark. It is a step into the unknown. 1195 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1196

[LORD CORMACK] It is not about Mr Alex Salmond and David Cameron Of course, many have talked about changes that or about a Tory Government versus the so-called will come about. Like my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I left-wing one in Scotland: it is an irreversible decision. was against devolution but that is all over now and we If Scotland votes yes, the only way back to the United have to make it work, and make it work even better Kingdom will be on its bended knees and, even then, than it has done—of course we have. However, it the rest of the United Kingdom may say, “Very sorry would be a constitutional and a political tragedy if we but we don’t want you any more”. However, I also were all in this United Kingdom plunged into the believe that, if Scotland votes no, a very long time uncertainty that a yes vote would create. I devoutly must pass before we have another referendum on this hope and pray that it will be a no vote and an emphatic issue. A 60:40 result is good enough. It should be one, and that we can more warmly embrace each other enough to say, “No, no more, we are not going to have across the border. I hope that it will not become an any more referendums on this issue”. There is only international border, and that we can continue to one way that could occur, and it will not be from a recognise the enormous importance that Scotland vote in the Scottish Parliament. It could occur only if has and the enormous contribution that it makes to the SNP gained a majority of seats in the House of this United Kingdom of ours. Long may that United Commons. Then there might be a case for saying, “We Kingdom flourish. will hold another referendum”. If Mr Salmond wins by one vote, he will demand an independent country. However, I have to say to my 7.41 pm noble friend Lord Foulkes, with whom I do not often Lord Maxton (Lab): My Lords, at this stage of the disagree, although I do on this issue, that it is my view evening there is always a temptation to start debating that if the SNP loses the referendum, particularly if it rather than delivering a speech, particularly if you loses it as convincingly as I believe it will, there is a have been at the other end of the Corridor, where hard core, English-hating, independence at any cost Members debate much more than they do here. However, part of the SNP that will turn on Mr Salmond and I wish to give the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, a blame him for the failure, and the party will rip itself collective noun—perhaps a “prickle” of thistles might apart because it will have lost its purpose. It will no be appropriate. longer have a reason for existing if it can no longer Along with many others, I will not discuss the claim that it is seeking independence. report on which this debate is configured, partly because Thirdly, it is surely time that we ask why Scotland I live in Scotland and have a vote in the referendum. I should become an independent country and a separate hope that the cameras will pick up the badge I am state. What is it that divides us from the rest of the wearing, which says no. I will vote no and I believe United Kingdom? Normally, when you look at history—I that we will win the vote on 18 September, which am a quasi history teacher from a long time ago—you happens to be my late father’s birthday, and therefore see four major things that divide one nation from the report will become irrelevant, however good it may another. One is language. Well, we speak the same be and however well it may be received. language. I was in Bruges recently, where Flemish and I do not know from where the noble Lord, Lord Dutch are spoken, whereas in Brussels French is spoken, McConnell, draws his opinion that the polls are narrowing, so Belgium is divided. However, we are not divided; because the latest opinion polls in Scotland show that there is no difference in language. There may sometimes the polls are widening, not narrowing towards be a difference in dialect but there is no difference in independence. Certainly, all the serious polls are now language. saying that. I assume that the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, As regards religion, Scotland itself may sometimes was referring to a private school in Edinburgh when he be divided by religion, but it is not divided from the addressed that issue. However, pupils in school after rest of the United Kingdom by religion. As regards school in Scotland have debated this issue, have voted race, there are different races in the United Kingdom on it and, time after time, the result has been a but the Scots do not make up a separate race. Otherwise, resounding no. The 16 to 18 year-olds who Mr Alex if we voted yes on the 18th, my brothers, my sister, my Salmond thought would all vote for independence are nephews and my nieces would not only become foreigners proving him very wrong. but would also be part of a different race, which is just Secondly, despite what has been said today, the unimaginable. people of Scotland must realise that they are not The status quo is the present union, so why are we voting for one further stage towards better devolution. dividing it? The last issue is that of a boundary, to I support giving further powers to the people of Scotland, which the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, referred. There although not necessarily to all the institutions of is no natural frontier or boundary between Scotland Scotland, but please let us stop confusing devolution and England. In fact, when we used to drive north, my and independence: they are two totally different animals. father used to throw his cigarette out the window The people will be voting to establish an independent because he never smoked in Scotland. When we crossed state which is separate from the rest of the United the Solway, he would say, “We are now in Scotland”. Kingdom. Unlike devolution, it is not a decision that However, the border is now 200, 300 or 400 yards up can be changed, modified or reversed by democratic the road. process if it does not work or if circumstances Noble Lords may not be surprised by my final change. Some things may well need to come back to point. In the modern world, where we have a global central government as opposed to going to the devolved economy and some companies are bigger than nation powers. states and have a greater turnover than many nation 1197 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1198 states, why on earth would we split up a small country “the Edinburgh agreement was for a ‘decisive’ referendum whose like ours into different parts and say to one part of it, outcome will be respected on both sides”. “You can control your economy”? No, you cannot. That of course is true, strictly speaking, but it is We are struggling in this country in the global economy assumes, first, that there will be two sides, not several to tax companies properly. Surely that will be the case sides, when it comes to a negotiation; and, secondly, if we have an independent Scotland. Therefore, I will that Scottish voters will not want to change their vote no and I hope that the rest of Scotland will follow mind. my example. My question is this: what happens if the vote on 18 September is yes by a very narrow margin of, say, 7.49 pm 51:49, but the Scottish Government elected in May 2016 want to reverse the decision to become independent, Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, I associate myself and secure a mandate at the election to overturn that with the thrust of the contribution of the noble Lord, narrow yes vote in the referendum? The referendum Lord Haskins. He is right to say that we need to question in September is a simple one about principle. devolve power out of London in an overcentralised It lacks any detail. It asks: England. I want to do that, as he does, as part of a United Kingdom that includes Scotland. “Should Scotland be an independent country?”. I hope that voters in Scotland will vote no decisively. There are no timescales. My point is that the negotiations, The United Kingdom is stronger together, to the benefit however long they take—whether they be short or of Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England, long, and whether there is an independence day before individually and collectively. The process of splitting the 2016 elections—are likely to throw up problems would be long and hard, and the outcome would be that voters may not have considered or not been able uncertain for everyone. I do not want to see a border to consider, and which may cause them to wish not to created between Scotland and England, but one might proceed. So can they change their minds? prove to be inevitable. Greater devolution following a To hope or to expect that a narrow yes vote can be no vote would be the best outcome, and would lead in “decisive” when negotiations have not taken place turn to faster and deeper devolution in England—a seems to be an assumption too far. I am for speed in trend that has started but which has some way to go to the negotiations should there be a yes vote, but that is equal what is happening in Scotland, Wales and Northern to avoid constitutional limbo. However, I cannot see Ireland. how a referendum is decisive when it is about principle I want to concentrate my contribution on the report only and not about the practical consequences. I hope of the Select Committee on the Constitution and say the Minister in his reply may be able to define in what that overall the report is extremely cogent and persuasive. circumstances a yes vote in September could be overturned It confirms that if Scotland becomes independent, it is by the choice of Scottish voters, either by a second seceding from the United Kingdom, which will remain referendum, should one be called, or by the result of the continuator state. The report defines the rules the 2016 election. around division of fixed assets appropriately, and concludes correctly that division of non-fixed assets 7.55 pm would need to be negotiated. The constitutional implications are clearly set out. Lord Cullen of Whitekirk (CB): My Lords, one of I was a member of the Economic Affairs Committee the subjects that the Constitution Committee, of which when it undertook an inquiry into the economic impact I am a member, had to consider was an aspect of the on the UK of Scottish independence. It reported last governance of Scotland between the referendum and year and during the hearing of evidence I began to the day on which Scotland would become independent, doubt the wisdom of holding only one referendum. If assuming a yes vote. That would be a period of the result in September were a no vote, that would be indeterminate length. clear and no further referendum would be needed. Evidence given to the committee by the Secretary However, I felt as we listened to the evidence that the of State for Scotland—statements that were not off complexity of the issues was such that to hold a the cuff but plainly premeditated—led the committee referendum only on the principle of Scotland becoming to conclude that from the date of the referendum, if it independent, as opposed to a referendum on the final was a yes vote, the UK Government would no longer agreement, might cause more problems than it solved seek to act on behalf of the people of Scotland. The if the result of the September vote was yes. committee therefore considered that there could then I am still of the view that two referendums are be a “constitutional limbo”, to put it mildly. So, I needed if the first results in a yes vote. This issue is suppose, in the worst case, there would be no Minister alluded to in paragraph 67 of the Select Committee on answerable to this House or in the other place for the Constitution’s report. The matter considered in matters reserved to this Parliament under the Scotland that paragraph was whether Scottish MPs elected to Act. In those circumstances, the committee made a the UK Parliament in 2015 should leave the UK number of recommendations, including a recommendation Parliament on independence day, should there be a yes that the two Governments should agree on the transfer vote in the referendum. I agree with the report’s conclusion of powers prior to independence day. that they would have to leave. I do not see how that I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lang, that the could be in dispute. This paragraph, however, contains view that the UK Government would instantaneously a second issue, which is perhaps too summarily dismissed. lose their mandate in the event of a yes vote cannot be It says that, right. However, I am glad that there are now some 1199 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1200

[LORD CULLEN OF WHITEKIRK] The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, wondered signs that, contrary to the impression given to the what would have happened if Alex Ferguson and committee, the UK Government are overcoming their Tommy Gemmell had not left Paisley to head south. I diffidence about acting in the interest of the people of can tell him, as a resident of Paisley—in fact I was Scotland in the event of a yes vote. This emerged to born there—we would have been delighted for them to some extent last week. On 18 June, the Electoral stay. I am sure that we would have found a junior Commission published the draft of a leaflet to inform football team they could both have managed and the public about voting, which is due finally to be coached. However, they did come south, and I think issued at the end of this month. It is to contain that was of benefit to everyone. guidance as to how members of the public can take part in the referendum, and information from lead My first interest in politics came when I was 17 campaigners. and I joined the Labour Party. Life was simple then. The Conservative Party on one side and the Labour There is also to be a joint statement by the Scottish Party on the other. I hate to say this to the noble and Government and the UK Government about the process learned Lord, Lord Wallace, but the Liberal Party was that would be followed in the event of a yes or no vote, on the fringes. Life was simple: we all knew where we as the case may be. Such a joint statement had been stood, we all knew who our opponents were. Then, in requested by the Electoral Commission some time ago the late 1960s, up popped Scottish oil and the almost but, for whatever reason, was months overdue by the minute Scottish National Party adopted its first slogan: time it was provided recently. One might have expected “It’s Scotland’s oil”. That is what I always thought that the joint statement would have been published about nationalism: it is a selfish, inward-looking before the leaflet was put together, but that is not what phenomenon. Nationalism is a destructive force; it is has happened, so far as I know. not a force for going forward. It sets people against Part of the joint statement states: people and countries against countries, no matter “The United Kingdom Government would continue to be what form it takes. In my view, it should be avoided at responsible for defence, security, foreign affairs and constitution, all costs. most pensions, benefits and most tax powers up to the date Scotland becomes an independent country”. That slogan set off the debate that went on for almost 40 years and led, in the late 1980s, to interested Many important subjects fall with the scope of matters parties—the Labour Party, the Liberals, the churches, reserved to this Parliament, but I am bothered by the trade unions and civic Scotland—becoming involved the fact that only seven of them are mentioned in the constitutional convention, to hammer out how in the joint statement. It makes no mention, for we could avoid nationalism but go forward and allow example, of the economy, transport, or oil and gas, to Scotland’s home affairs to be decided in Scotland. name but three matters that are of some interest in That process took the next eight years, and in 1997, Scotland. I therefore wondered whether the selection when the Labour Government were elected, my noble of seven subjects in this joint statement was simply friend Lord Robertson came forward with the proposal deliberate because it was as much as could be agreed that we should have a referendum to decide whether between the two Governments? Or is the selection there should be a Parliament in Scotland or not. There simply because this statement was to give general I found myself again divided from some of the people guidance to members of the public? Either way, I had been closest to in the argument for devolution. there needs to be clarity at this point, 85 days from They did not think we should have that referendum; referendum day. they thought it had been in the manifesto and that we Like the noble Lord, Lord Lang, I would welcome should go forward. They were looking for something a response from the Advocate-General, the noble and different from what I was looking for: devolvement of learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. I hope power, not on a national basis, but bringing power that he can assure the House that the United Kingdom home, closer to people. I found myself in agreement Government will continue to be responsible for all the with the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, and I hoped he matters reserved to this Parliament. If that is not to be would include local government. That is where real the case, what will be the position? power should lie. The closest point we have to the people who elect us is at local level. 7.59 pm The phrase by Donald Dewar that is often quoted Baroness Adams of Craigielea (Lab): My Lords, is that the devolved Parliament was a process, not an coming 30th in the debate is not the easiest position, event. I do not think for a moment that Donald given that most points have already been made. I am Dewar meant that that process was further devolving now looking for different ways of saying the same powers to the Scottish Parliament; rather it was devolving thing. I am not surprised to have found myself in powers from that Parliament back to local government agreement with the noble and learned Lord, Lord and the people who first elect us. That did not happen. Wallace of Tankerness. Given that the Liberal Party In fact, the exact opposite happened. We have watched was a partner in the constitutional convention, I fully councils decline in Scotland. There are currently 32; I expected to agree with most of what he said. I was a doubt that will last for very much longer. Power is bit more surprised to find myself in almost total being sucked up to the centre, albeit the centre has agreement with the noble Lord, Lord Lang, and, God changed. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, forbid, with the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, whom I who said he had looked at the rising numbers at often jousted with in the other place when he was not Edinburgh Airport. If you want to look at things a supporter of devolution and I was. being pulled to the centre, simply look at that. As 1201 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1202

Edinburgh Airport has grown, Glasgow Airport has That leads me to EU membership. If, as we are declined. Power, jobs and influence are all being sucked being told, after a yes vote Scotland will not automatically into one place in Scotland. be a member of the EU—I think that that is the Alex Salmond was never going to be content with a case—my granddaughter will not be applying as an devolved Parliament. He did not want it in the first EU student but as a foreign student. She cannot freely place. He went along with it and saw it as a stepping travel to Europe, as she would hope to do in a gap stone. We now come to the referendum that he talked year; that will not be open to her without visas and all us into. It is quite simple—yes or no—but not according that comes with it. She will need a different passport. to Mr Salmond. We have again been sidetracked down What of EU members living in Scotland at the moment? the road of what happens if there is a no vote: “What A large number of them live in Scotland, so what will more powers do we get? What’s the second prize?” We happen to them after an independence vote? Are they should not have been distracted down that road. It is a to be cast aside? I was interested to hear one of my quite clear yes or no, and, like with most things, no colleagues say that Welsh was the second most spoken should mean no. language in Wales. Can I tell noble Lords that Polish is I hope there will be a no vote, but that we then look the second most spoken language in Scotland? That is at the whole situation in the UK. I think we need not a recent event. It comes from the 1940s when the another constitutional convention or conference, whatever Free Polish Army was stationed in Scotland. It has you wish to call it, that does not look at it in a been for a very long time. piecemeal manner, as we have looked before. That is These are very big questions but questions that the the difficulty we have got ourselves into: we keep Scottish Government are refusing to answer and we chipping bits off and adding bits on. We need to look have to get those answers before proceeding further. at the whole circumstance in the UK—from this Parliament to regional governments, to the Scottish 8.11 pm Parliament, to the Welsh Assembly, to local government —to see what has to be done as a whole. I do not think Lord Dobbs (Con): My Lords, for many Englishmen, we can continue in the way we are. People are now Scotland is a land of mists and mysteries, and I am disfranchised and almost certainly do not feel included. an Englishman. I confess to being something of a Until they feel they have some input to make at local genealogical nut and yet in 40-odd years of clambering level, I do not think we are going to see voting patterns up my family tree I have found not a single drop of increase—rather, they will decline. Scottish blood. I appear to be the only woman speaking in the Perhaps the trolls and social-media Stalinists would debate. To be quite honest, that does not surprise claim that this gives me no right even to participate in me. Women in Scotland have not been very vocal this debate, and that I fail the McTebbit test, or about this, but when it comes to opinion polls the whatever passes as an appropriate test of my loyalties answer is no. That is because women are not gamblers. north of the border. So let me be clear: I support two Men are more likely to take a gamble on what might teams—England when it is playing Scotland, and Scotland be, but women are used to the everyday issues of what when it is playing Germany, France, Italy, or almost happens now: “How do I put the bread on the table? any other country. How do I keep the family clothed? How do I pay the The world of books has always been of some rent? Am I going to gamble all that?” Maybe it will be importance, so perhaps I should use that as a starting all right on the night, but maybe it will not be. Women’s point. The first book I ever remember reading was family ties are important to them. Like the noble Robert Louis Stevenson’s Treasure Island,asaboy,by Lord, Lord Cormack, I have two grandchildren living torchlight beneath the covers. Even on a cold winter’s in Scotland with a Scottish mother and an English night in Hertfordshire I could walk on warm sands father, and two grandchildren living just outside with Jim Hawkins and his famous Scottish creator. Cambridge with a Scottish mother and an English The Scots, as we have heard, have always been renowned father. One set of them will be foreigners. Whichever for their literary imagination, with Barrie, Burns, Conan way we go, the family living in England are going Doyle and Kenneth Grahame—an endless, illustrious to have foreign cousins and the family living in list given by the noble Lord, Lord Birt. Of course, as Scotland are going to have foreign cousins. My many have mentioned, there is Walter Scott. grandchildren are all British, and I hope they all will I prepared for this debate by reading for the very remain British. first time that classic novel of the north, Rob Roy. I want to ask the Minister what the implications are That would tell me something about the Scottish for education. My eldest granddaughter is 16. She has spirit, I thought. It is a rather long book, so it came as just sat her Highers and hopes to do very well. She will something of a surprise to discover that I was more not apply to university until next year because she is than half way through it and still had not set foot in too young, but she wants to look at her options Scotland. Dare I admit it—parts of the dialect were a throughout the UK. If, by sheer chance, there is a yes bit challenging. As I am sure all noble Lords will vote in September, she will have to apply to the English know, it is set in the years immediately after the Act of universities, I presume, as a foreign student. Young Union. It is a novel of national pride, cultural aspiration people do not want that to happen. They do not see and, most of all, reconciliation One of its heroes is borders and boundaries in the way my generation Baillie Jarvie, a man who—I am using Scott’s words, probably did. She finds the thought of a border between “although a keen Scotchman, and abundantly zealous for the Scotland and England laughable. She sees herself as honour of his country, was disposed to think liberally of the sister European more than anything. kingdom”. 1203 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1204

[LORD DOBBS] Scottish culture. Walk through the streets of Edinburgh I think Baillie Jarvie was saying that we are better in August, as I do, and you will see heads held high—just together. He scolds the foul-tempered Andrew Fairservice as they are bent low when walking those same streets thus—although I will not attempt the accent: in January. I defy you to sail the seas of the west coast “Whisht, sir!—Whisht!—it’s ill-scraped tongues like your’s in the company of Para Handy without laughing with that make mischief atween neighbourhoods and nations. There’s every blow of the puffer’s bilge. naething sae gude on this side o’ time but it might hae been better, I have not an ounce of Scottish marrow in my and that may be said o’ the Union”. bones. I represent a party that would gain mightily That may still be said of the union, and even more so and overnight if Scotland disappeared and took all of of ill scraped tongues. its Labour MPs with it. The rest of us would move on. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace, and Yet we—the English, the Scots, the Welsh and the several others, referred to a nation punching above its Irish—are more than friends, we are family. If Scotland weight. I prefer to think of it as a nation singing above were to decide to quit, to leave us and go its own way, its scale. Scotland has certainly done that. There are so it would be the greatest sadness of my political life. many great inventors, industrialists, engineers, academics, May that day never come. surgeons, artists, and just plain good exceptionally hospitable people. We have already heard stories of 8.20 pm great Scotsmen and women in so many areas—in business, science, education and military valour—which Lord Soley (Lab): I have lived, worked and studied I will not repeat. in Scotland and England. My family roots are from all parts of these islands. I say to the noble Lord, Lord However, let me turn to one area of great national Dobbs, that if he digs deep enough he will find little pride and cultural interest—that of sport. It is a parts of these islands in all of us. It is one of the many stunning matter of fact that Scottish athletes who reasons why I think of myself as British, not English, made up 10% of Great Britain’s team at the Olympics and why I recognise that the United Kingdom is, in my hauled in 20% of our medals. Who will ever forget the judgment, by far the most successful political and pride of the entire country at that extraordinary economic union that the world has ever seen. achievement? Could that have been achieved by Scotland on its own in isolation? I doubt it. Look at the English The noble Lord, Lord Lang, put it very well—I premiership these past few years—the finest football thank him for his committee’s report—when he reminded league in the world and run by, yes, Scots. I am sorry, us that in 1707 the Act of Union brought to an end but it is the shocking truth: Alex Ferguson, Kenny years of fratricidal strife across the border. It introduced Dalgleish, David Moyes, Paul Lambert, Steve Kean, peace and prosperity to these islands that allowed Owen Coyle, Alex McLeish, and on, and on, and England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland all to build up, on—Scotsmen to a man and in every lilting post-match especially in the more radical parts, that tradition of syllable. Has that smacked of arrogance in the English? democracy, the rule of law, freedom and tolerance that Arrogance is usually administered with a firmer hand made us the most successful nation of that period. It than that. If my old friend Francis Urquhart had ever was a nation that was able to invent and carry forward heard of the drive for independence, I suspect that he the Industrial Revolution because of those economic would have concluded that the demand for it came and political freedoms. We should be proud of it. We from south of the border, not the north. should fight for it. In 1707 that Act was, in a way, about an unformed Those Scots are everywhere, even here in Westminster. federal state—it was federalism before federalism was As my noble friend Lord Forsyth pointed out so invented. The Scots kept their own legal system; the passionately earlier, take out those with Scottish roots English kept theirs. There were separate church/state from the list of Prime Ministers these past 100 years—the relationships. Those aspects of federalism were there Campbell-Bannermans, the Douglas-Homes, the Browns in these islands already. When I hear people say, as and the Blairs, the Macmillans and the MacDonalds Alex Salmond and others do, that somehow or other and all the rest, and you are left with a remarkably Scotland is uniquely different, I say, as I have indicated, short list. Take out a couple of Welshmen who crept in that the interrelationship within these islands is far too there as well and the list is shorter still. So have we complex to be dismissed in the way in which it is English lost out? No, all of us have gained. sometimes done by the SNP. In my view, one of the There is a golden thread, a mixture of sentiment greatest achievements of the United Kingdom is that and common interest, that has bound our peoples we can maintain our differences in a way that enables together that makes us stronger, not weaker, and that different cultures within the United Kingdom to flourish. has made this union one of the most adaptable and I go to Scotland and I can enjoy the culture there. successful ever devised by man. Do I take all this for Scots come here and they can enjoy the culture in granted? Of course I do at times, I am English. Was I England—or in Wales or in Northern Ireland. We can taught too little at school about Scottish history? do that because we have developed political structures Absolutely I was. Do I wish this union of ours to that allow it to happen. continue? Most certainly, and with all my heart. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, hit on an important Even as an Englishman it is impossible to walk the point when he indicated that we have to keep our fields of Culloden without feeling the power of its thinking flexible on what happens next. That is not history. You cannot read the pages of Rob Roy or only because there could be a narrow vote on listen to the songs of old Scotland, even with a dull 18 September; rather more worryingly, if there is a English ear, without being taken up by the romance of strong yes vote—I hope that there will not be—and 1205 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1206 then a flight of capital and jobs from Scotland, we will There is the question of greater devolution. Much find that the attitude towards separation changes. of the talk in this debate has been about devolution There will be an election for the Scottish Parliament in within Scotland, but there is the matter of devolution 2016. What will happen if the SNP is thrown out? Will throughout the UK. A rarely addressed problem is we carry on negotiating on an independence that no that of England. An English Parliament is not necessarily one wants? I very much doubt it. the answer. When you look at England, it is very I strongly object to the way in which the SNP important to recognise that the south-east corner, addresses this argument. It is trying to present it as bounded by Cambridge, Milton Keynes, Oxford and though voting for independence on 18 September Southampton, contains over 22 million people. That is means that everything changes but nothing changes. It over one-third of the total population of the United cannot be like that. There are crucial dangers on the Kingdom. In the early 1980s, I and Bryan Gould, who economic and currency fronts. The issue of whether was then the MP for Dagenham and a shadow Minister, Scotland joins the European Union is crucial, too. I tried to work out a regional structure for England, but cannot improve on what, from his great knowledge, the impossibility of the south-east hit us hard. There is the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, told the House. As someone a great problem there. It is not insoluble, but it is a who has had to deal with political realities over the difficult problem, which we need to address. years, I can say that if I were a state such as Spain or The issue of England in relation to all this is some other European state that had separatist groups important. It greatly troubles me when the SNP seems within it, I would do everything possible to make it to think that it is enough simply to be anti-English. difficult and costly, if not impossible, for a separating Many of its members are anti-English rather than anti state to join. You would want to send the message to the United Kingdom. That is deeply offensive to many the separatist groups in your country that separation British people in England. That is why the SNP perhaps is a bad idea. We have to accept that hard political needs to take on board that arguing for independence reality. in the way that it does sets off a reaction elsewhere in What do we do about the current argument? I have the UK that will not create the thoughtful debate that my criticisms of the way in which the no campaign has we would have to have after a yes vote. I hope that been run in Scotland and feel that we are underestimating there will not be an independence vote, but we have to the importance of bringing the rest of the United face the reality. Kingdom into the argument. As has been pointed out, about 1 million Scots live in the rest of the United 8.29 pm Kingdom. About a quarter of a million live in south-east England. When I talk at the Caledonian Club, I find Lord Elis-Thomas (PC): My Lords, when I sent my that most of the Scots there are anti the separatist name in for this debate, I suspected that I might end vote. When I go to some of the other Scottish groups up in a minority but I did not expect to be in a to whom I talk, they are anti the separatist agenda, minority of one. However, there is on the wall of this too. They realise, rather better than many SNP members, House a very important reminder of the failure of the that if you leave the union and separate, you are saying House of Lords to understand issues of home rule, as to the rest of the United Kingdom, “We are leaving it was then called. Of course, I am referring to the two you. This is a divorce”. Those who want to leave need famous portraits of the 1890s which show their to recognise that if they poke the English, in particular, Lordships—in those days bedecked in fine top hats, of in the eye, the feeling on this side, here, will be awoken course—doing down the aspirations of the Irish people. that Scotland is not wanted. You can already hear I wish to speak about the idea of the exercise of that. When I talk to people in the rest of Britain about sovereignty within an existing state and the way in this, they say, “Well, if they want to go, it doesn’t which that can and should happen in a context that matter”. If they are saying that, there will not then be respects everyone’s rights to self-determination as peoples. a nice, friendly, structured argument about who gets I am very grateful to the Constitution Committee what. If a separate Scotland tries to walk back into the for the way in which it has exercised its judgment on family the following day, who gets what can certainly this issue but I am concerned about the constitutional be discussed, but the family that has been left cannot framework that is being pursued. My suspicion is that be told how it should run its economy. That is why the notions of a continuator state and a successor Scotland cannot have the economic and monetary state are not precisely analogous in the present position. policy that the SNP says that it wants. I know that there are no other precedents but it is What do we do next? I know Scotland well. I hope important for us to consider how the devolution and believe that the Scottish people will not vote yes to transformation has changed the United Kingdom already separation. My guess is that they will not but, if they and how it might change it again. do, we need some major constitutional changes for the What has really dismayed me about this debate is remaining parts of the UK. If they vote no, however, that your Lordships seem to believe that the United we cannot just carry on as before. I understand and Kingdom was created by almighty God. The United to some extent am sympathetic to a constitutional Kingdom is a constitutional chapter of accidents, just convention, although there are problems about how like most other constitutions are. As someone who has to contain it in a limited timeframe and focus it studied the history of these islands, I am aware that effectively. If we do not have that, we need to have a the United Kingdom did not remain a kingdom as structured way in which we can recognise the changing originally conceived, with the union of the kingdom relationships between the regions and countries of the of Scotland and the kingdom of England, which had United Kingdom. already taken on the Principality of Wales, with Ireland, 1207 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1208

[LORD ELIS-THOMAS] In contrast to everyone else who has spoken, I do but that existed in history only for some 150 years. So not see these huge fears about the future of the United why is that state form the only thing that we can Kingdom and I do not share the pessimism. I will envisage in the 21st century? co-operate of course with whatever refreshed union—to I confess publicly that if I had a vote in Scotland I use the term of the noble Lord, Lord Purvis—will would vote yes. That does not make me a nationalist emerge from these discussions. I still believe, however, with a capital N and it certainly does not make me a that the best way forward is a yes vote in Scotland. separatist. The badge that I habitually wear indicates This would have a catalytic effect on constitutional which Union I think is the most important to belong development not only north of the border but across to—the European Union—alongside the nation of the Marches of Wales. Wales, but that does not mean that I do not consider it to have been a great privilege in my political life to Lord Richard: Since the noble Lord was kind enough have served in this building for 40 years. That is my to refer to me, I wonder whether he could answer a approach to this issue. question. I heard what he said—I listened with great What I have tried to do here for that period, especially interest—but is he saying that at the end of the day he the 15 years I have spent trying to establish the constitution wants to see a United Kingdom in which Wales, of Wales, with a lot of help from my noble friend Lord Scotland, Northern Ireland and the regions still participate, Richard—I was glad to hear him say earlier that his or is he saying that he wants to see a United Kingdom work is yet unfinished; I look forward to the time which Scotland, and possibly also Wales, is no longer when we will have more equality in the numbers of part of? Members who serve across the United Kingdom in our assemblies—is to have a positive approach to Lord Elis-Thomas: What I certainly see is the trying to make devolution work. To that end, I have constitutional position, especially since there will be always emphasised the important principle of the one common head of state, where what we are talking sovereignty of the people and of the self-determination about is not the end of the United Kingdom but the of peoples. This is what I find very attractive about creation of united kingdoms or the recreation of united both the original Scottish Government White Paper— kingdoms, which of course includes the Principality of much attacked and savaged in this Chamber—and, Wales and indeed a significant portion of the island of more recently, the draft independence Bill. Ireland. Especially when we look at the new relationships I am a big fan of what is usually known as the within the island of Ireland, there are myriad possibilities. continental way of making constitutions—in other I look forward with excitement to the further changes words, putting down basic principles and indicating in the history of our kingdom. fundamental rights—and here we have a fine example in how a series of policies is set out. The noble Lord, 8.38 pm Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, has already referred to this matter. As a former Defence Minister—and someone The Earl of Caithness (Con): My Lords, despite all with whom I have had disagreements in the past on our discussions, both on previous occasions and today, matters of nuclear disarmament—he is quite seriously I do not believe that we are any closer to realising the concerned about a Scottish Government who are full impact that will occur in this country—and by attempting to make nuclear disarmament a principle that I mean the whole of the United Kingdom—and of the constitution. Well, for heaven’s sake. We have a Europe, if there is a yes vote for separation. We have situation where 190 countries have already signed the not fully analysed it, and I do not think it is possible to non-proliferation treaty, so is it not rather good—for fully analyse it at the moment. some of us, anyway—that one of the nations of the A number of problems have been raised that could United Kingdom might decide to do that by its occur in this debate. In fact the noble Lord, Lord constitution? Soley, prompts me to ask my noble and learned friend Apart from the international issue of disarmament, now: what is the legal situation should there be a there are issues relating to social policy, which is set in narrow vote for yes to independence and then an the constitution, and in particular there are issues immediate backtracking in Scotland and the removal involving the environment. Again, I would be very of the SNP from power? Is there a provision where attracted to a yes vote on these grounds—the commitment there could be a second referendum or is it a fait accompli to legislate on biodiversity and to address the litigation that once there is a yes vote on the 18 September, that of climate change, following on from what the Scottish is it for ever and a day. I would be grateful if he could Government have already done in this area in the clarify that. Climate Change (Scotland) Act and so on. The notion I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Lang for of placing in one’s constitution, as about 90 other his excellent report and for highlighting just what a countries have done, the right to a healthy environment difficult and bumpy road there is ahead of us in the is also attractive. However, perhaps most attractive is event of a possible yes vote. My noble friend reminded the provision for a permanent constitution to be prepared us that today is the anniversary of the Battle of as a written constitution by a further constitution Bannockburn, which he said was primarily a Scots convention. It is not something that the Scottish versus English battle. I remind the House that a lot of Government themselves are seeking to do; it is something Scots fought on the English side. There was Comyn, that they are seeking to establish by the same principle the de Umfravilles, Macnabs and MacDowells. There by which devolution was established—that is, through were Highland clans fighting for the English. It was as a convention made up of civic society. much about a settlement of who should be the King of 1209 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1210

Scotland as between Scotland and England. My ancestors There has been quite a movement of powers to were involved in that battle and in the Battle of Flodden Scotland following devolution, mainly with the Scotland that my noble friend mentioned. At least we helped to Act 2012. All the major parties are saying now that win one of the battles we took part in. The point of there should be a further transfer of powers from that was to remind the House that Scotland was as Westminster to Holyrood if there is a no vote on divided then as it is now. As my noble friend Lord 18 September. That has caused considerable upset in Lang said in his speech, the union in 1707 brought the parts of England, from Cornwall to Northumberland. peace and harmony that both countries really wanted. There is no doubt that there will have to be a constitutional convention to try to work out a better way in which There has been a mass of paperwork and many the union can operate, because we are past the point of good government publications, but the fact remains no return now. The Scots have driven us to this situation. that we in Scotland—in fact, we in the UK—do not Although I am in favour of transferring more tax-raising know the full implications of what will happen and the powers from Westminster to Holyrood, on this occasion effect of the independence vote. Only 14% of people in it is time to make haste slowly, because this is a matter Scotland know what the current arrangements are which, if it is not done correctly, could break up the between Holyrood and Westminster. Compound that United Kingdom in other ways that we have not with the Scotland Act 2012 and there is a huge information envisaged at the moment. For that reason I support problem that the Government must try to address. In that part of the report of my noble friend Lord Lang addition to the book that will arrive in everybody’s in which he says that there ought to be a constitutional home about the independence vote, would my noble convention as soon as 18 September is past. and learned friend consider whether there could be a small pamphlet explaining the powers of Westminster and of Holyrood now and what they will be? The fact 8.46 pm is that under the 2012 Act the Scottish Government are allowed more tax-raising powers by secondary Lord Judd (Lab): My Lords, the challenge we face legislation without primary legislation—but not many in this debate is immense in itself, but it is also people realise that. symptomatic. We live in an age of paradox. Never have the people of the world been more interdependent There will inevitably be questions that are unanswered in terms of security, economics, health and all the rest. because the negotiations have to take place after a yes Yet somehow there has never been such a widespread vote if there is one. We must recall that that is in sense of alienation and disenchantment with existing marked contrast to the situation with regard to Europe, political structures. I believe these two factors are where it seems to be the policy that all the negotiations working together in the situation that confronts us. should happen before the referendum takes place. We It is not just about economics. In the case of Scotland would be much better served in Scotland had such a it is clearly about emotion and culture as well. There is situation happened so that we had a clearer view of a deep-seated yearning for a sense of identity and the likely implications, and the division of assets and personal significance and the confidence that comes liabilities. One would then be in a better position to out of a sense of identity. The challenge is how we put the cross on the paper. recognise that identity and enable it to flourish but at I follow the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, the same time enable people to see that in the world in in regard to Europe. What does my noble and learned which we live it is simply impossible to find a way friend think the timescale might be if there is a yes forward without co-operation; and that therefore it is vote? Could there be a negotiation for Scotland to not really the right time to dismantle a very effective become a member of the EU by the time separation part of co-operation, as demonstrated within the United day happens? If there is not time—I do not believe Kingdom. there is—England will find itself with a foreign country I am a half-Scot, and I hope that the House will that is not part of the EU on its northern border. The forgive me if I am a little personal in my approach to effect of that on the north of England will be dramatic, this debate tonight. I had a father who could not have as it will be on the south of Scotland. An artificial line been more English, rooted in the Surrey-Hampshire that has occurred through history would have to be borders. I had a mother who could not have been more manned at all its border posts. How many roads would of a Scot. She had lost two brothers, serving the be closed so that that may be satisfactorily managed to United Kingdom in the Army, one not yet 20, who avoid fraud? Let us recall that 23 million vehicles cross after being awarded an MC was killed in action. The in both directions each year between Scotland and other, as a young captain serving in the Indian army England. Some 15 million tonnes of freight move in 84 years ago—a kilt-wearing captain, when he had the each direction and there are 7 million rail passenger opportunity—was killed on the north-west frontier. journeys. If there are to be border controls, that will impede the natural flow of trade within an area that at During the war my mother was working and therefore the moment is all united. It is therefore no wonder that my grandmother had a great deal to do with bringing the polls in the border areas show a higher percentage me up. She had gone out at the age of 19 to marry my of people wanting to have a no vote and to stay in the grandfather in India, and they lost two of their children United Kingdom than elsewhere in Scotland. there. He was a missionary in the Church of Scotland. He ended his life as secretary of the foreign missions Will my noble and learned friend comment also of the Church of Scotland. He was not, as I understand on the draft Scottish independence Bill published on him, an evangelical, but he was dedicated to the cause 16 June? Are the Government going to do a critique of of education and had concentrated on education in it and are they satisfied on its legal accuracy? his time in India. 1211 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1212

[LORD JUDD] if we had had a greater confederal approach rather During the war, my grandmother used to tell me than the emphasis on a unitary approach. Sometimes, vivid stories about Scotland all the time—often in the strength lies in the co-operation and effective operation cosiness of the shelter as the bombs fell round about. of confident people with a strong sense of identity. My mother identified very strongly with London during From that standpoint, I would be the first to applaud the Blitz, but always as a Scot. She never doubted or the creation of a commission to look at the future questioned her Scottish identity. That was true of her constitutional structure of Britain, but I would want work in academia, at London University and the LSE, that commission to have a firm remit that it was to on the Bench and in local politics. look at it in terms of the contribution to be made to What did all that mean for me? How did it affect our mutual future on the basis of a federation. me? It meant, I realise in my older age, that I grew up with a sense that England and Scotland were inseparable. They were different—that I was very clear about—but 8.55 pm they were inseparable. There was a certain confidence Lord Tyler (LD): My Lords, I am delighted to about that. Indeed, at times, the humour was quite follow the noble Lord, Lord Judd, because I agree strong. One of the stories I was brought up on was the so much with his peroration, and I shall come back to story of the Scottish businessman who had been building that point in a moment. up his business very successfully and had always resolved any difficulties that arose at St Andrew’s House but The committee report outlines, quite rightly, the was finally confronted with something that meant that very considerable constitutional implications of a yes he had to go to London, to Whitehall. The family were vote. It certainly places in sharp focus the profound rather anxious about what would happen, so when he and shocking effect that it would have on both the came back, they asked him, “How did you get on with continuation state of the UK and the successor state all those Sassenachs?”. He said, rather puzzled, “Sassenachs? of Scotland. However, I am an optimist. As a fellow I did not meet any Sassenachs; I only met the heads of Celt, a Cornishman, I hope very much that our Scottish department”. That story made a great impression on me. cousins will firmly vote no. I believe that we should plan for that every bit as much as we prepare for the It was therefore not altogether a surprise when, as a stark reality of yes. A number of colleagues in all parts very young Member of the other place I became a PPS of the House have been referring to the possibility that at the then very large Ministry of Housing and Local we have to do something very serious indeed even if Government for England and Wales and went to there is a no vote. What the noble Lord, Lord Judd, ministerial meetings on Monday mornings. There was has just said echoes that. quite a big team of Ministers. Down one side of the table were the Ministers and down the other side were We were given a lead earlier in this debate from the the civil servants. Bang in the middle, opposite the noble Lords, Lord Strathclyde and Lord Richard, to Secretary of State, was the Permanent Secretary. Who the effect that we should be looking very firmly at the was the Permanent Secretary? Stevenson, a rugby-playing implications for the whole of the United Kingdom. Scotsman, if ever there was one. Indeed I am repeating a phrase that I think the noble Lord, Lord Lang, made in introducing his committee’s I think that that is central to the story of the United report. Kingdom together. England and Scotland together have had a great and successful past. Yes, we have had Many of today’s contributions today have our differences. Yes, there are some historic resentments understandably focused on the challenges for Scotland in Scotland about how the Scottish aristocracy perhaps on 19 September. However, how does this Parliament, sold out the Scottish people to the English. Those and the parties in it, deliver on the promise that a no things are real; they do not go away. What we must vote will not mean that there will be no change? face is that if there is a no vote in the referendum, that All the leaders say that they are committed to more will not be the end of the story. We will have gained a devolution and that Scotland must be assured that it political victory, but the issue will remain. I do not will happen. My noble and learned friend Lord Wallace want to be a Jeremiah, but I have a foreboding that it of Tankerness reiterated that promise at the start of will accentuate and could turn quite ugly. I see some today’s debate. Scottish Members of the House indicating their doubts, It is in that context that I am disappointed—though with me, on that matter. it is perfectly reasonable—that the committee did not Therefore it is essential that, with no further look at the constitutional implications of a no vote. prevarication, we get down to the job of restructuring Perhaps it needs to return to that, even before the United Kingdom in a way that meets that challenge. 18 September. That is because, as devolution takes Let us stop theorising about the possibilities of a another step forward, after the referendum, both in federal United Kingdom. A federal United Kingdom Scotland and in Wales, we cannot forget that the is what is required. It is the logic of all that is happening largest part of the United Kingdom is England. The in terms of devolution and the talk of greater opportunities noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in a debate on the gracious and financial powers for Scotland. I am convinced Speech said: that we will have a stronger United Kingdom on a “We clearly recognise in Scotland and Wales the distance and resentment towards Westminster-dominated decisions. We need federal basis than we do when we are always trying to to recognise that the same instincts apply in Newcastle, Norwich, sweep the issue back under the carpet. Cumberland and Cornwall”. —[Official Report, 11/6/14; It seems to me that there are parallels here with col. 460.] Europe. Looking back at the European story, I happen Colleagues on all sides of the House, on these Benches to believe that we would have had a stronger Europe and throughout, have spoken in similar terms. 1213 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1214

The Chancellor spoke about this only yesterday in more disruptive to the British constitution. That is Manchester. Naturally enough he expressed it in terms because it would of course be representing 92% of the of giving an economic boost to the north of England, remaining United Kingdom, with Stormont and Cardiff and he suggested doing so by getting the big northern Bay representing 3% and 5% respectively. That would cities to work together. In that speech, however, he surely be impossible to sustain for any period. acknowledged something vital, which is that real economic The second option, which is equally undesirable, is powerhouses must possess real political power too. that of English votes for English laws. This has been In that context we have to examine the whole issue examined and examined again but even the year-long of local democratic accountability. To take a rather work of the McKay commission raised more questions more parochial example, yesterday the Government than it answered and, sadly, it ended up being rubbished took a big step: finally devolving to Cornwall the right on all sides. to allocate the latest tranche of EU structural funds, Thirdly, the idea of some top-down imposition of some £450 million, and that is where the power should regional government, as was attempted in the north-east be, rather than in those artificial regional development of England, has also been dismissed and seen as agencies that we all suffered from. irrelevant. Those artificial regions that were created However, that should only be the start. More power for a different purpose just do not meet the needs and should be devolved to a democratically accountable aspirations of people in England. I take as an example Cornish assembly, or whatever it may be in different the northern end of the south-west region that is dear parts of the country. That is subsidiarity. There were to my heart, which is nearer to Scotland than it is to quotes from my erstwhile leader, Jo Grimond, about Land’s End. The idea that that region has a natural the concept of subsidiarity. I do not think that he unity is just not true. invented the term, but the concept is quite clear: that The noble Lord, Lord Judd, emphasised just now—as decisions should be taken as close as practicably possible the noble Lords, Lord Crickhowell and Lord McFall, to those whom they affect. Colleagues from all parts did previously—that 19 September is as much a of the country and all parts of the House have made a constitutional opportunity or threat as 18 September. similar point. Different arrangements will suit different We have to grasp the fundamental asymmetrics of the parts of England–we should be relaxed about that. demand for devolution in England—the fundamental Dr Andrew Blick, a highly respected academic in this messiness of England—and the essential asymmetrical field, has written an excellent pamphlet detailing how reality of the United Kingdom, and then go with the this model could work—a model of devolution on grain. Once people have devolution they tend to like it demand. This will be relevant whatever the outcome and their neighbours will then demand it too. We can of the referendum of 18 September, to both Scotland move toward a more devolved United Kingdom—the and other parts of the United Kingdom. We must whole of the United Kingdom—without imposing build on the new city deals so that the new powers, artificial boundaries, in the way so eloquently described along the lines offered to Wales in 1998, can be available just now by the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, and as of right to institutions which mean something to without unbalancing the whole union by pitching the people they affect. This concept of devolution on England against the rest. The next Parliament must demand, which we Liberal Democrats have been make that happen. advocating, is very well examined by Dr Blick’s paper. It would mean getting councils to come together to 9.04 pm form the new institutions; and in return for working together they would be entitled to power, initially on Lord Garel-Jones (Con): My Lords, I confess that I the scale offered to Wales in 1998, and then on a am a little sceptical about this idea that devolution greater scale, with more responsibility for finance cures all, which many noble Lords seem to have embraced, eventually following thereafter. but I do not want to go down that route today. As the Chancellor said yesterday, Wales has its own I begin by referring briefly to the position that parliament and can pass its own laws but the economies would arise in the European Union in the event that of Manchester and Leeds are each bigger than that of Scotland were to secede from the United Kingdom. Wales. So I conclude, as he does, that there is no The legal position is quite clear, contrary to what reason why parts of England cannot take power on a Mr Salmond would wish us to believe. As long ago as similar scale to the Welsh Assembly if the will is here 2004, President Prodi stated in reply to a question in in this building to make that happen. There is no the European Parliament: reason why Kent, Cornwall, Manchester or Leeds “When a part of the territory of a member state ceases to be cannot take on responsibility and have proper accountable part of that state, e.g. because that territory becomes an independent governance. They would be more strategic and powerful state, the treaties will no longer apply to that territory”. than local authorities but not as centralised and clumsy More recently, the position was validated by President as control from Westminster. Barroso, who said, I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord “a region which secedes from a member state automatically Soley, said about an English parliament and I invite ceases to be part of the European Union”. him to look at the effective debunking of that idea in So there would need to be a negotiation. Other noble Dr Blick’s pamphlet, which I quoted in Grand Committee Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has already spoken— last week. It would be incredibly unbalancing and are better qualified than I to speculate as to how that centralising to invent an all-England parliament at might develop. I would just say that I can think of half this stage. Incidentally, if there were a yes vote in a dozen member states that would count up to 100 very Scotland then an English parliament would be even slowly indeed before rolling out the red carpet for an 1215 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1216

[LORD GAREL-JONES] not only beautiful; they give us a deep sense of belonging independent Scotland. At the very least, negotiations and social cohesion. On the other hand, many of the would not be a piece of gateau, as the French might decisions that affect our daily lives are taken increasingly say. There would be no fast track—rather, a bumpy in international fora where size matters, whether it be road leading who knows where. the EU, the UN, NATO, the WTO or the G7. In all However, I do not want to dwell on the downsides; I these, Great Britain has the size and weight to be at the want to take a much more positive line. Too much of top table. I say to my fellow Celts in Scotland: let us the debate has sounded like a bunch of snotty southerners have the best of both worlds, let us continue to take a firing warning shots at the Scots. I am Welsh, and deep pride in our small homelands and let us continue—on whenever I hear our national anthem, “Mae Hen the quiet—to represent Great Britain on the international Wlad Fy Nhadau”, I feel an emotion shared by the top tables where size matters. noble Lord, Lord Richard, and other Welsh Members of your Lordships’ House. Consequently, I think I can 9.10 pm understand the profound sense of attachment and belonging that the Scottish people feel for their country. Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Steel, said, in his recent book The real drawback of this referendum from my My Scotland, Our Britain Gordon Brown draws attention point of view is that I feel forced to reveal something to, that we Celts have kept quiet about for several hundred years. Between us, the Celtic fringe—that is, Scotland, “what is unique about the modern United Kingdom—and distinguishes it not only from the US and other federal countries Wales and Northern Ireland—while accounting for but from the European Union—is the extent to which UK citizenship only 15% of the population, have been running Great guarantees fundamental social and economic, not just civil and Britain for years. Delve into any area of British life—the political rights. It means that regardless of whether you are arts, the law, the civil service, the business world, Scottish, English, Welsh or Northern Irish, you have a right to a politics—and what do you find? You find that we are UK-guaranteed pension; a right to UK-guaranteed assistance hugely overrepresented. Tell it not in Gath, speak of it when unemployed; a right to fully funded health care free at the not in the streets of Ashkelon, but we have been point of need; and a right to minimum standards of protection at work, including a UK-wide minimum wage and tax credits, no running this place for years. matter who you are and where you reside. The system of sharing When I was Minister of State at the Foreign Office across the UK creates a form of equality between the citizens of during the Maastricht negotiations, our principal adviser the four nations that no other group of countries can match for its was a chap called John Kerr, later head of the Foreign depth and sophistication and this is arguably the defining characteristic Office. Our spokesman was a chap called Gus O’Donnell, of the Union today”. later head of the Treasury. Emyr Jones Parry headed We are surely right to care deeply about this and to the EU external department at the FCO and later was campaign as hard as we can for its retention. our ambassador at the United Nations. There are no I want to deal with wider questions on the basis prizes for guessing their particular origins. The noble that the SNP’s independence referendum is defeated Lords, Lord Kerr and Lord O’Donnell, are now respected on 18 September, because the problem will not go Members of this House, and my only regret is that we away. The SNP is clearly peddling a lie when it asserts were never joined by Emyr Jones Parry, who would that Scotland can be a nation again only if it becomes have been a considerable strengthening of the Taffia in a separate state. We are a nation. We have always been your Lordships’ House. a nation, and what is more we have been successfully It is true that our ultimate boss, the Prime Minister, part of a world-class state for more than 300 years. Sir John Major, was English, but it is also true that no Other speakers have explained what this has meant in fewer than 50% of the Prime Ministers in the 20th practice and celebrated the contributions that Scots century were Scottish or Welsh—half of them. The have been able to make on a world stage as part of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made reference to that. United Kingdom. Noble Lords may think that I am stretching the envelope In Scotland, we control our institutions. We have a a little by including Lord Salisbury in that list, but separate legal system, we are free to practise different more than 500 years ago the Cecils were Welshmen on religious practices and we have a distinctive culture. It the make from Allt-Yr-Ynys on the Monmouthshire is the best of both worlds, so what is the problem? border. True, they anglicised their name from Sitsylit It does not seem to be Scotland. My reading of the to Cecil. True, they now sound like proper English situation is that the people of Scotland would like to toffs. But it is true too that the present Lord Salisbury—the remain within the United Kingdom in the union that noble Marquis, Lord Salisbury—clutches his Welsh origins has lasted for more than 300 years, but that the conditions to his bosom with pride, as I am sure do the 700,000 or under which they are prepared to do so have changed 800,000 Scots living and working in England today. and they need to be reflected in a new constitutional Look at British history and it is the same story. settlement. Like my noble friend Lord Richard, I Robert Burns, Adam Smith, Alexander Fleming, David believe that our present constitutional arrangements Hume, John Baird—in any walk of science, business, are a complete mess. The changes that need to be the arts or the military, Scottish names appear again made are significant but not impossible to deliver, and again. If I were to give your Lordships a full list although there are consequences that may take time to and add the Welsh and Irish figures, I would need to be worked through. detain the House overnight. This is a constitutional moment, an opportunity to Lastly, I will quote two apparently contradictory sort out issues, that we must seize. The problem that slogans: “Small is beautiful” and “Size matters”. Our we have to solve after 18 September is with the UK, countries—Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales—are not Scotland. There are three dimensions to it. The 1217 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1218 first is the sovereignty of the UK Parliament. Noble of powers between different tiers of government, a set Lords will recall that in the run-up to the referendum of autonomous institutions, a formal division of on devolution, the sovereignty of the UK Parliament competences and rules for the resolution of conflict. was reaffirmed and in the 1997 White Paper Scotland’s As the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, the Commons Parliament the Government said: Political and Constitutional Reform Committee and “The United Kingdom Parliament is and will remain sovereign its advisers are doing a great job on this, and surely its in all matters”. time has come. It might be good if, as part of its This claim was repeated in the assertion in the Scotland programme, it could look at how responsibility for Act 1998 that the Scottish Parliament, defence and security issues, the maintenance of our “does not affect the power of the Parliament of the United single economic market, welfare and guarantees for Kingdom to make laws for Scotland”. the funding of key services such as healthcare and pensions could be organised within the new federal With the benefit of hindsight, this now seems the system, while at the same time allowing for the proper wrong way round. Not only have we transferred significant and unfettered devolution of other powers without powers to Brussels, for good reason, but one Parliament, reservation. two legislative Assemblies and a high-powered London authority are taking powers from the centre. Referendums, Whatever the post-Scottish referendum arrangements reflecting our new notion of popular sovereignty, are are, the UK already looks more like a constitutional in effect required when important constitutional decisions partnership of equals in what is in essence a voluntary are made. multinational association. In some way it must make sense to codify the new division of powers and the new Then there is local government. I think noble Lords power-sharing, tax-sharing, risk-sharing and resource- enjoyed the rather delicious, bilious attack on the sharing rules in a beautifully crafted and written codified present arrangements by the noble Lord, Lord Haskins, constitution. As others have said, we should start and would wish for them to be changed. I also thought working on that now. that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, was right to bring up the quotation from Jo Grimond, which 9.16 pm correctly analyses where power resides. Lord Hope of Craighead (CB): My Lords, I come It is a mistake to believe that Britain is in any very near the end of a long and fascinating debate, in meaningful way a unitary state today. In any case, in which we have had excellent contributions from so my view what Scotland wants is the certainty that in many parts of the United Kingdom, right down that its own sphere the Scottish Parliament holds undisputed lovely banana that lies on the Celtic fringe of our power and its decisions will not and cannot be overruled islands, from the Western Isles down to and including by Westminster. This should apply to all devolved Cornwall. And we have had a marvellous contribution Administrations. So the second problem that needs from pure Englishmen as well. solving is the need to decentralise decision-making in Britain, which is not devolution, as has rightly been In the time available to me, I should like to concentrate said, and should not be confused with it. Decentralisation on the report of the Select Committee. I was one of is different. those who was privileged to give evidence before the committee, and I was very impressed by the quality of What we now need is more than the simple devolution the questions that were put to me, and by the expert to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, which should and effective chairmanship of the noble Baroness, happen; we need double devolution, which means that Lady Jay. We were being asked to consider an event power will also go to the UK city regions and other which we all wished would not happen. However, as areas so that London powers, at least, are operating in an intellectual exercise, it was a very stimulating experience. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Belfast, Cardiff, Birmingham, I pay tribute to what I think is an excellent report and Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle and Teesside. We to the masterly way in which it was introduced for us could add to that the Midlands and the south-west. In this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton. practice, Parliament does not legislate on matters directly affecting Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or London, Although it contemplates the implications of a vote so would it be so different if devolved matters in for independence for the rest of the United Kingdom, England were left to city regions or an equivalent it has some very important things to say about what wording? that vote would mean for Scotland, too. It seemed to me to be clear, when I was giving evidence, that Thirdly, with regard to our own House, one further Scotland could not take this step without a great deal set of reforms might help to cement the new arrangements. of assistance in that direction from Westminster. I The House of Lords could perhaps be replaced with took the orthodox view; there are reserved matters. an elected senate-like forum that represented the nations The union of the kingdoms of Scotland and England and regions, was sensitive to their needs and recognised and the Parliament of the United Kingdom are reserved; that there are areas so controversial that they may so also is the power to repeal the two Acts that gave cause polarisation, sufficiently strong to jeopardise effect to the Treaty of Union—the Union with Scotland the union, and therefore provided a forum where these Act 1706 and the Union with England Act 1707—of issues could be resolved. the Scottish Parliament. So the recommendations that If we manage to seize the legislative moment—a legislation would be needed in this Parliament to set constitutional moment that comes up only very rarely— the process in train, as described in paragraphs 37 to and move to a more federal system, we will need a 44, seemed to me to be entirely appropriate, with properly codified constitution. Federal systems all around legislation going through this Parliament to make the the world are typically characterised by clear divisions necessary changes to enable the process. 1219 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1220

[LORD HOPE OF CRAIGHEAD] namely, the declaration in Section 23 about nuclear As the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said, the disarmament and the removal of nuclear weapons recommendations were cogent and persuasive, but from Scotland. This, of course, is a subject of debate that is not how the matter was seen north of the in Scotland, and many people disagree with what is border. The scales were lifted from my eyes when, on being proposed. However, as I understand it, the provision 16 June, the Scottish Government published the draft is there to tie the hands of the successor Government. Scottish Independence Referendum Bill. I rather regret That is why it is so important to Mr Salmond to get that it has not been made available for all of us in the this through while he maintains a majority. That is Printed Paper Office, because it really has to be seen to another reason for being cautious about the making of be appreciated. One may ask how it could be that the a Section 30 order. One would need to be very clear Scottish Government should devote time and money about the implications if this constitution, and its effect to something that is outside their competence, but it on the nuclear weapons policy, gave the independence seems that we are far beyond niceties of that kind. It is Bill a free hand in setting out what it intends to do. quite plain from this document that the SNP Government There are other things to be concerned about. The take a quite different approach. In effect, that draft provision about the head of state is, at first sight, very independence Bill is their response to the committee’s reassuring. The Queen and all her heirs and successors report. Far from being, or seeing itself, as a “successor” are to be head of state. However, there are already state deriving its independence by a grant of independence signs of great unrest among the nationalists who want from the rest of the UK—a gracious grant, as someone independence. The problem with putting a provision said this afternoon—independence is something that like that in a Bill of this kind is that it attracts debate they wish to assert as their constitutional right on and creates instability. their own terms. That is what this document is all about. There is the repeal of the Act of Union. Only one Mr Salmond is not looking for a Scottish independence Act is mentioned given the inward-looking nature of Bill passed in this Parliament. What he is doing in this this document. However, this was a treaty: there are draft Bill is making a draft declaration of independence two Acts, but the other Act is simply not mentioned. on his own terms. As I see it, that is a warning for all of After all, what is the constitution really trying to do? us. It changes the flavour of the debate from that One of the things it starts off with is claiming that the which I think the Select Committee, with great respect people are sovereign. Many countries in the world to it, was contemplating in its discussions. I think that have written constitutions. All the countries in the it will lead to a demand by Mr Salmond for a Section Soviet empire proclaimed that the people were sovereign 30 order removing all the obstacles to his Bill, so as to but, of course, we know that was simply not true. It is allow him to put the measure before his Parliament a charade in a way, a clever piece of propaganda, but within days of his obtaining a yes vote. He will claim one has to recognise the dangers there and what the to have the backing of the Edinburgh agreement, Government will be faced with when they are presented about which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, again with the Edinburgh agreement and a demand made some very persuasive comments. It may be very for a Section 30 order. That is the challenge for the difficult to see how we can escape from its terms. I Minister, to which I invite him to reply. hope that the Minister will say whether the Edinburgh agreement will survive a change of government if in 9.24 pm 2015 the Government change and the Opposition Lord McAvoy (Lab): My Lords, I pay tribute to the become the Government. As far as Mr Salmond is noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, and the members concerned, speed is essential. His target is to achieve of his committee for producing the report and for the independence during the lifetime of his present masterly way in which it was introduced. It cleared Government in Edinburgh while he can still control the decks for rational discussion, and I am sure that events, and the rest of the United Kingdom must face the whole House is grateful to him and his committee. up to that. We stand here today in the midst of an historic I think it is right to say that the launch of the Bill debate on an historic issue—an issue that could lead was a propaganda exercise. “We can give you something to some of the greatest constitutional consequences in that London cannot give you—your own constitution”, living memory. We are here on an historic date, 24 June it is saying. It is, at first sight, a simple and compelling —the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn. document, as the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas, said. Though our debate may be placed on such an historic It is brilliantly drafted, readable by everyone, including occasion, this is not a nationalistic point about the primary schoolchildren, and is something that anyone triumph of the Scots over counterparts south of the who cares to read it will at once understand. All the border; for it was a much different time and, as the lyrics bits that one would expect to find are there: the nature of “Flower of Scotland” state: of the state; an outline of the machinery of government; “Those days are passed now citizenship; protection of rights and freedoms; equality; And in the past they must remain”. the environment and, of course, the repeal of the Act The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, provided a varied of Union. Anyone who dares to criticise it does so at picture of the make-up of the Battle of Bannockburn, his peril. However, there certainly are things to criticise. thereby emphasising that it was not straightforward. Like the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, I suggest that the Thankfully, since those dark times we have learnt to Government need to look at the document’s terms evolve and work together for the collective benefit of very carefully and point out where the flaws lie. One of all. The point I wish to make is that we should be clear the most important is the matter to which the noble that the SNP has no ownership over the history of the Lord, Lord Robertson of Port Ellen, drew attention— Scottish nation and, while the past is something to be 1221 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1222 looked to and learnt from, what we are concerned with of the Scottish people. It will not trust them with the is the immediate and future well-being of the people of facts and the honest truth but, instead, delivers false Scotland and the people of the entire United Kingdom. promises and disingenuous assurances that all will be Mention has been made of being anti-nationalist and rosy in the Garden of Eden. the merits of being nationalist and patriotic. There is There is a clearer, honest path that the Scottish nothing wrong with being patriotic. It should not be a people can follow, being assured of security and strength case of “my country, right or wrong”, because we as part of both Scotland and the UK. This path can be know that that is not the case, but I do not accept the seen in the devolution proposals set out by all parties, correlation between patriotism and bad nationalism but especially, I must point out, as set out by Labour. made by the noble Lord, Lord Stephen, for instance. We wish to see a strengthened Scottish Parliament, The report we are discussing outlines the stark trusted and able to carry more of its own load, but in realities that the people of Scotland and the United turn only as part of a stronger United Kingdom, Kingdom will face in the event of a yes vote, and it retaining the benefits that working together delivers highlights a process that will not be simple and easy for all our people. We wish to see a new union for the but rather long, complicated and at times, it seems, 21st century, one that delivers on social justice and rushed. All this in order to facilitate unnecessary enhances social unity and cohesion between all its Scottish secession from the union, and at what cost? constituent parts. We wish to see a more progressive What pressing issues will we be faced with between Scotland as part of a more progressive United Kingdom. September 2014 and the 24 March 2016 that will not We must work to preserve the gains of the past, while be fully addressed due to this process of secession and also laying the groundwork for the innovative achievements dealing with the resulting constitutional fallout? When of the future. trudging through the deep mire of constitutional issues There are areas of government policy that the Scottish resulting from independence, ordinary men and women Parliament is best placed to deliver on; we agree with may well be left to fend for themselves while competing that. However, we should go further. Devolution does and overlapping constitutional and legislative jurisdictions not just mean full centralisation of power in the are worked out, and tough negotiations take place. devolved Administration, as the SNP seems bent on In the report, we see highlighted the fact that an doing. It should lead to further devolution of power to issue of “prime importance” would be the existence of where it can be utilised, away from the central power the United Kingdom as a “continuator” state. This in sources of the Holyrood Parliament to government effect means that what lies ahead for Scotland by bodies and councils, ultimately empowering local people. leaving the union is a full process of renegotiating Devolution in Scotland seems to have stopped at the many of the things we have achieved and worked Scottish Parliament; there is no further devolution to towards as a united British people, thereby losing our local authorities. Instead, there is a drawing of power, place at the centre of global, social and economic institutions and decision-making to the centre. Local decision-making. It is true that there has always been a councils are hamstrung by the local government funding very strong Scottish voice at the heart of British arrangement, where, quite frankly, they have to do politics, as illustrated by the listing of names by several what they are told or lose out. We now have a national noble Lords. Those strong Scottish voices were reaching Scottish police force. Devolution, like subsidiarity, is a far beyond what the proportional figures may coldly good principle, but it is not happening in Scotland and suggest. Via our collective strength, we have seen it certainly will not happen under an SNP-controlled Scottish voices reach a global significance that would Government. be impossible to achieve as an independent nation. While we bear that in mind, we also have to keep in However, as the report outlines, the UK would continue mind our responsibilities as part of the whole UK to function with Wales, England and Northern Ireland, body and maintain the continuation of the UK welfare and keep key institutions such as the BBC, and state and those benefits that we derive from it international places on the G8, G20, NATO and the —guaranteed, as they all are, to the people of the UNSC. The SNP would effectively silence the voice of United Kingdom. We must share the load, making the Scottish people, preventing it reaching those corridors our own contribution for the benefit of all. These are and rooms far beyond the borders of Scotland and social responsibilities that develop a strong and true carrying significance far beyond that of a nation of union between all of our people, standing in solidarity our size. with each other through times of hardship. However, I therefore wonder whether the SNP is willing to be we must be wary and careful. We must ensure that honest with the people of Scotland, as this and other devolution does not go too far and lead to a situation reports have been. The road to independence is not a where we have fierce competition between the four smooth one, as Alex Salmond would have us believe, nations of the United Kingdom, developing a race to nor is there a pot of gold at the end of the nationalist the bottom socially and economically. We must strike rainbow. What there will be is hardship, which will that fine balance between the ability to cater for regional require the tough endurance of the Scottish people to needs and the ability to address national ones as well. overcome, but I cannot say whether that endurance Like many other noble Lords, I have no doubt will be worth it in the end. about the ability of the Scottish people, in the event of When points like this are made, we are accused of a yes vote, to overcome the challenges that will face scaremongering. This is not scaremongering; it is being them. They are a truly resilient people. However, it is honest with the Scottish people about the realities they for us to show them that, while they can go it alone, will face. This is something that the SNP refuses to do this does not mean that they should, or that it is the because it fears the people. It fears the proper judgment best option. 1223 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1224

[LORD MCAVOY] My noble friends Lord Glasgow and Lord Purvis To finish, I would like to address a point that I and the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, said made at the beginning of my remarks about looking that what they so much regret about the referendum to the past and learning from it. While in the deep past debate is almost having to choose between being British we have seen division between the nations of the and Scottish, whereas most of us think we can be United Kingdom, I like to look to the recent past and British as well as Scottish—and indeed, European— see the great challenges that we have confronted as a whatever part of Scotland we come from. The noble united nation: domestic challenges that undermined Lord, Lord McConnell, talked about the strength and our welfare and external challenges that threatened diversity within the United Kingdom. In spite—or our liberty. Yet we stood firm and overcame them perhaps because—of that diversity, we are a United together. In the 1940s, when confronted with the vilest Kingdom. We can celebrate the diversity and our unity. and shocking tyranny of Nazism, we, as our own I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Lang nation, supported by the Commonwealth, persevered, of Monkton for his reprise of the recommendations of held out and finally defeated the evil that confronted the Constitution Committee’s very valuable report on us. We did that by standing together. When the time the constitutional implications of the referendum and, came to rebuild our shattered nation, after all the specifically, of a yes vote. The Constitution Committee heartbreak, destruction and sacrifice, we came together of your Lordships’ House has a well deserved reputation yet again to create a new society, leaving a legacy to for full and detailed examination of key constitutional the generations that would come after of new homes, debates that we face in the UK. This latest report new lives and new hopes. discussed in today’s debate is no different. I take great pride in showing visitors everything in As I indicated in my opening speech, we will offer a this place—it is a wonderful place—but in the Royal full written response in advance of the due date of Gallery, amid all the pomp and ceremony of the royal 16 July. The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, asked portraits and the murals of famous well won victories, about that. I understood that the noble and learned I take most pride in showing people, in the corner by Lord, Lord Morris, might have thought that that was the window, a beam from the jetty at Dunkirk where a response to the McKay commission, so I make it the British troops were able to embark and get back to clear that it is a response to the report that we are Britain. Without it, we would not have won that war. debating today. That was a tremendous example of how, as a United I will offer a few reflections on behalf of the Kingdom, we pull together. Government because the report rightly highlights that Today we are once more faced with economic hardship the constitutional stakes could not be higher. A yes and great social and economic challenges that are vote in September would have a profound impact not currently being felt throughout the country—certainly just on Scotland but on people right across the United in some of the deprived areas of Scotland. Now is the Kingdom. Those implications would be far-reaching time to stand together once more. It is not about and would extend far beyond constitutional points—to offering false dreams and false hopes, as the SNP has the economy, our place in the world, and our relationships done, but about delivering a new dawn by working with one another across these islands. together. We will have to fight by all and for all. We However, as the committee notes, at its very core cannot just retreat into our respective homelands and the implications are set out in law; and it would be to shut ourselves off from each other. We must stand the law that we would have to turn. Successive united, regardless of our differences, and give truth to Governments have been very clear that it is for people the old Labour adage that, in Scotland to decide if they wish to remain a part of “by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than the United Kingdom, or if they wish to leave and go it we achieve alone”. alone. That is why I say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris of Aberavon, who indicated that the 9.36 pm Welsh were not involved in the agreement signed in Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I thank all Edinburgh in October 2012, that it has been the view noble Lords who have taken part. It has been a remarkable of successive Governments that if the people of Scotland debate in the quality of the contributions. Indeed, as wish to leave they should not be held in the union in some of our earlier debates on this subject, we have against their will. That was the background to the had a range of very thoughtful contributions from agreement. noble Lords on all sides of the House, from all parts of However, as my noble friend Lord Purvis pointed the United Kingdom—Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, out, it is one of the strengths of the union that, England and, indeed, Cornwall. That has enriched because we have established the rule of law and the our debate. basis of democracy, we are confident that these matters One of the most important things that came through will be determined through the ballot box and not was the number of people who talked of their own through means by which other countries in history experience. The noble Lord, Lord Soley, talked about have sought to claim their independence. working in Scotland as well as in England. The noble The referendum on 18 September will determine Lord, Lord Judd, talked about his family and what this question. I say to my noble friends Lord Shipley makes him what he is—a product of this United and Lord Caithness that, in a debate where both sides Kingdom. My noble friend Lord Dobbs said that he are almost invariably at odds with each other, the one was a full-blooded Englishman but nevertheless has a thing that the two Governments have never disputed is great affection for and affinity with what we have that there should be only one referendum. It is important achieved as a United Kingdom. to recognise that if Scotland votes yes on 18 September 1225 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1226 it will be not only for Christmas, as one noble Lord This means that the Scottish Government would continue said in his contribution, but decisive. The agreement to be responsible for health, education, justice, rural reached was intended to be decisive and would be affairs, housing and transport in Scotland as well as respected. The noble Lord, Lord McFall, asked whether the other devolved matters, and the United Kingdom that was set down when it was signed up to. In fact Government would continue to be responsible for both Governments have said that it would be a decisive reserved matters. I do not think that the noble and referendum that would be respected by both sides. learned Lord expected the Electoral Commission Therefore one would expect that a no vote would be statement to contain the whole list of Schedule 5. respected by those who have campaigned for a yes vote. However, the key ones are there and there is nothing However, as the committee notes at paragraphs 38 sinister about the ones that were mentioned or not to 43, if there is a yes vote, legislation delivered through mentioned. The United Kingdom Government would this Parliament will be required to take Scotland out continue to be responsible for reserved matters, including of the United Kingdom and to establish a new, separate defence, security, foreign affairs and the constitution, state. I shall come later to the point raised by the noble plus pensions, benefits and most tax powers up to the and learned Lord, Lord Hope. The committee recognised date when Scotland became an independent state. that the extent and scope of that legislation may be During the negotiations, the two Governments would very limited. Many subsequent orders will be required continue to discuss any policies of either that affect but the legislation itself could be quite limited. Much the responsibilities of the other. Equally clear is the will depend on the agreement reached. reality that a vote to leave the United Kingdom is a As I have said in your Lordships’ House on a vote to leave its institutions, including the Houses of number of previous occasions, these negotiations cannot Parliament. The timing of any changes would have to begin in advance of the referendum as we must not be settled in the event of a vote for independence. pre-empt the outcome of the negotiations. To do so would require the United Kingdom Government to I sincerely hope that there is a clear endorsement—a put themselves in the shoes of a Government of the view expressed by all noble Lords with the exception continuing United Kingdom minus Scotland. It would of the noble Lord, Lord Elis-Thomas—of Scotland’s require the United Kingdom to act in the interests of place in the United Kingdom. If there is not, that is only one part of the United Kingdom rather than the when the negotiations will begin. I suspect that they whole of the United Kingdom. To do so in advance of will take as long as necessary to ensure that both sides a referendum would be to deliver exactly what the are content, rather than fitting neatly into a timetable nationalists want—a United Kingdom that excludes laid down by the Scottish Government. I hope that Scottish interests and acts only in the interests of that answers the question raised by noble friend Lord England, Wales and Northern Ireland. That is the MacGregor. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, with reality of independence: it means that there will be his experience of negotiating seven NATO entries, two separate states, and where you have two separate indicated that that was not by any means an easy states you have two separate sets of interests. Sometimes process. As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, they will be mutual, sometimes not. pointed out, as did my noble friend Lord Garel-Jones, negotiation of entry into the European Union is by no Later in the committee’s report the question of who means a straightforward matter either. should make up the negotiating team for the rest of the United Kingdom was raised. As someone who has As people have said before, it is the deal in any represented a Scottish constituency in the United negotiation that is important and not the date. With Kingdom Parliament as well as in the Scottish Parliament, regard to the negotiations themselves, as the Constitution and as someone who will continue to be resident in Committee report notes, the starting point for them is Scotland after the referendum, whatever the result, I predetermined by the legal position that underpins all find the report’s recommendation on the role of Scottish of this debate. The first of our Scotland analysis representatives and the exclusion of those who would papers dealt with the legal and constitutional position have a conflict interest very compelling. of Scotland within the United Kingdom and the I turn now to the points highlighted by the committee, implications of independence. This was the right place including representation of Scotland within the UK to start, because it is from the law that political realities Parliament and by the UK Government in the period and experiences will flow. The legal reality is clear: the between a referendum which endorsed a yes vote and rest of the UK would be the continuator state in the independence day. In paragraphs 56 to 58 of the event of independence. Scotland would leave and become report the committee raises the risk of constitutional a new successor state. I welcome the committee’s clear limbo. This issue was raised in his introductory speech endorsement of this position in the first of its conclusions. by my noble friend Lord Lang, by the noble Lord, This key legal point has a number of ramifications. Lord Kerr, and by the noble and learned Lord, Lord The United Kingdom would continue to be a member Cullen of Whitekirk. I have looked back at the context of all the international bodies to which it is currently in which my right honourable friend the Secretary of party: the European Union, permanent membership State for Scotland answered that question. It was in of the Security Council of the United Nations, NATO, the context of negotiation, whereas, as I have just said, the G7 and the G20. As a new successor state, Scotland you cannot have negotiations where there are different would need to apply for and seek new terms of sides of the argument. membership. Those negotiations cannot in turn be However, to make it clear, during any negotiations prejudged in the way that the Scottish Government Scotland would still be part of the United Kingdom and advocates of independence seek. As has been and public services would be delivered as they are now. pointed out in this debate, 28 member states of the 1227 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1228

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] the waters with a third question and allowed us all the European Union, each of which will wish to protect time to negotiate among ourselves what the third and represent the interests of its citizens, will have to option would be, thus taking our eye off the ball and sign up to these negotiations. Many of these states not tackling the main issue, which is whether Scotland have had to accept terms of EU membership from should be an independent country. which the Scottish Government expect to be exempt. The noble Lord, Lord Birt, made important points In the previous debate I did not wish to seem about the BBC. As the committee indicates, that is one dismissive of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord of the institutions that would belong to the continuing Kerr of Kinlochard. I hugely respect the experience state. He highlighted the detriment that Scotland leaving that he brings to these matters, but it would not be the UK would cause the BBC: 10% less funding for right to speculate on how negotiations could work. BBC programmes and for the rest of the UK. He also Previously I perhaps raised an eyebrow more with the pointed out, importantly, that of course the BBC is idea that the Scottish Government would find it acceptable independent of government and any negotiations it for the United Kingdom Government to negotiate on had with the Scottish broadcasting service would be their behalf: I just think that you need to say that there akin to the kinds of negotiations that I am sure it has could be some political issues around that, but I with many other national broadcasting companies certainly do not dismiss lightly what the noble Lord, throughout Europe and the rest of the world. Unlimited with his experience, says. access to BBC services in an independent Scotland As I noted at the start of today’s debate, the would cost money, and it is naive and indeed misleading Government will respond in full to the committee’s for the Scottish Government to pretend that everything recommendations, ahead of the response deadline. I would just go on as before. hope that I have given some indication of our likely The noble Baroness, Lady Adams, asked about response to some of the key points made by the English universities. Access for Scottish students would committee and repeated during this debate, and a be the same as for those from other European Union clear sense of the approach that the United Kingdom countries. The other thing that is slightly odd is the Government are taking on these issues. Scottish Government trying to pretend that English I turn to some of the other points that have been students coming to Scottish universities could be treated raised. In reference to the Edinburgh agreement I differently from those from other European Union indicated that it is one wherein the United Kingdom countries. and Scottish Governments agreed to work together to ensure that the referendum on Scottish independence Baroness Adams of Craigielea: On that point, given could take place on a legal basis. I think that the noble that if Scotland voted yes it would no longer be part of Lord, Lord Foulkes, though that we had been tricked the European Union, how then would Scottish students into it. Noble Lords might want to think about this for be treated? a moment. With the SNP having won—with a manifesto commitment to a referendum—a majority of seats in the Scottish Parliament, in which the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Indeed, if Scotland Lord Robertson, and I have some responsibility for was a member of the European Union, they would be the electoral system used, neither of us or many others treated the same as everyone else from there; if it was thinking that any party could win a majority, it is not not, they would be treated the same as international unreasonable that the referendum was facilitated. I students from India or wherever. Of course, if Scotland rather think that Mr Alex Salmond, with the cunning were to be part of the European Union—a point that I wiliness referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, think the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is about to latch hoped that the United Kingdom Government would on to—the idea that you could allow free tuition for say no and give him ever more of a grievance. students from every other European Union country and charge English students does not have any sound basis. It is difficult to say that you want to enter into a Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: A 45% vote on a 50% social union with other parts of the United Kingdom turnout is not an overwhelming mandate. I am not but one of the first things you do is charge its students saying it is overwhelming in one direction or the other when you are not charging anyone else. but it is arguable that it did not provide the mandate and there could have been further discussions. I also said that in the discussions the UK Government seem Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I know it is difficult but to have conceded on every issue—issue by issue. it has already been said. Mr Salmond has said that they would not get free tuition—that English, Welsh Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I do not and Northern Irish students would not be treated as accept that. In a PR election, to win an outright other European students. That is what we are facing. majority of seats—the political reality was that there We are doing everything by the book. We are treating was an expectation that if we had sought to thwart these matters honourably. People on the other side of that, it would have played into their hands. There was the discussion are not. the possibility that they would have run their own referendum, which we would have argued was not Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, there is legal, and we would have been embroiled in a such a thing as the European Court of Justice, and constitutional mire. The fact is, there is a binary anyone who attempted to fly in the face of what most question, yes/no, but I rather think that some in the people would think of as accepted European Union nationalist cause would have liked to have muddied law may find that the law caught up with them. 1229 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1230

My noble friend Lord Cormack and the noble Government to put together a negotiating team and Baroness, Lady Adams, talked about their grandchildren enter into negotiations. As the noble and learned Lord and how they do not wish to see opportunities cut off probably knows better than anyone in the House, and cannot understand why we would want to build along with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen, barriers. That has been reflected in many schools, the propensity for some people to litigate in areas like where there have been substantial no votes. It shows this could be very great. If that were the situation that that in an era when young people can communicate so we were in, although we sincerely hope that it will not easily, when the communication barriers have been be, it would be important to put the negotiations on a broken down because of modern technology, the idea proper legal footing so that they could not be subject that you would start erecting barriers is something to some further challenge. that many of them just cannot comprehend. That is a great strength for our union as we look forward. Lord Purvis of Tweed: I am conscious not to take My noble friend Lord Caithness asked about the up more time. Following on from the point made by draft Bill. I confess that we have not yet done any the noble and learned Lord, Lord Craighead, the analysis of it. My noble friend Lord Lester of Herne Scottish Government have put forward, in the documents Hill, however, was telling me the other day that he has that have been referred to, the assertions that the already identified two or three inconsistencies with the Scotland Act would be revised again. They have said European Convention on Human Rights, and if my that, together with the enactment of the Scottish noble friend has identified them, that probably means independence Bill, the existing Scotland Act would be that they are right. It is not a very good start for a amended, but in the document they have not said by constitution if it seems to fall foul of the European whom and when. Convention on Human Rights. If I am correct in thinking that the concordat still The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, exists between the Scottish Government and the UK raised the question about whether it could be a Section Government that any proposals put forward by the 30 order. It is clear that independence cannot just be Scottish Government that may impinge on reserved asserted. The terms of an agreement reached between matters should be discussed in advance with the United the representative of an independent Scotland and a Kingdom Government, was there any discussion or continuing UK would have to be that: an agreement. I any forenotice by the Scottish Government that they have already indicated what the position would be would be bringing forward this matter, drafted by civil with regard to the period between the date of a referendum servants and presented to the people of Scotland as a if there were to be a yes vote and the date of independence, Scottish Government paper? and all the responsibilities that the United Kingdom Government would have. The quote that I gave was a direct quote from the statement given jointly by both Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I can confirm that Governments to the Electoral Commission, so the there were no prior discussions with the United Kingdom Scottish Government themselves have signed up to Government on that matter. Finally— that. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen, made a point about how long it took to get that agreement, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Surely my noble friend and that was just an agreement to make a statement. is not telling the House that in the event of Scotland That might put into context how long it might take to voting to leave the United Kingdom, that would not negotiate an independence settlement. If Scotland be a matter that would require legislation approved by chooses to leave the United Kingdom, it must be both Houses of Parliament? prepared to do so whatever the terms, because the terms cannot be known in advance. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I made that clear As the report of the Constitution Committee indicates, earlier: we are talking about an interim Bill. As I there could be possible difficulties of a Section 30 indicated earlier, in response to the point made by my order, if it was challenged in the courts that the use of noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton, yes, we have the Section 30 order had gone beyond what Parliament indicated that there would have to be legislation. The intended an order to do—if it were bringing in scope and extent of it would very much depend on the independence when in fact that was clearly never the terms of the agreement reached; they may not have to intention of Parliament. be very extensive. However, I confirm that there would have to be legislation to bring about independence. I Lord Hope of Craighead: To be clear, is the Minister hope that that is clear and unequivocal. My noble saying that what is contemplated, at least by the friend looks doubtful but I am saying that there would Government, is that there would have to be legislation have to be legislation to bring about independence. through both Houses of Parliament in order to facilitate the independence Bill that is now on the table? Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: That is a bit weaselly, because it suggests that a deal could be done between Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I think I said in my the two Governments and then there would be a kind evidence to the Committee that there was a possibility of confirmatory piece of legislation. If we are talking of a Section 30 order, but there are difficulties with about breaking up the United Kingdom, this is a that. I indicated that there might have to be very matter not just for the Executive but for Parliament as limited legislation, if only to allow the Scottish a whole. 1231 Scotland: Independence[LORDS] Scotland: Independence 1232

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, of course Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I cannot the Executive are answerable to Parliament. That is make that commitment but I certainly gauge the mood self-evident, as we well know. It is impossible to speculate of the House. If it might help, I think perhaps that at on this because we do not actually know what the some point we have confused two different things. The terms would be. I am just confirming that there would point I made to my noble friend Lord Forsyth is that have to be legislation. I cannot speculate about what there would have to be legislation going through this would be in the legislation because I have no clue what Parliament to establish Scottish independence. That is kind of negotiations there would be or what agreement very clear. That is what I said to the committee and would be reached. To try to speculate would go against I think I am right that it was accepted. the grain of what we have said about there being no pre-commitment or pre-negotiation. Lord Robertson of Port Ellen: The Minister says we are getting confused and he is very accurate. It seems Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: I am sorry to keep that what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, everyone but this is a very crucial matter—as the noble said related to what the Scottish Government might Lord, Lord Forsyth, indicated. The noble and learned do in the Scottish Parliament following the yes vote Lord, Lord Wallace, has said that the Government and before independence day took place. That is where have not yet considered fully the terms of the interim the worry comes in. What they do after independence—if so-called constitution drafted by the Scottish Government. that day should ever happen—is up to them but if they Perhaps he could tell us today that the Government bounce us in the interim period by passing through the will look at that, report back to this House on it and Scottish Parliament this draft constitution, then that then we can have a further debate. We really must should really worry all of us. consider this. As I said in my speech, we are getting bounced into one thing after another. We should be Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I am very damned sure that we are not bounced into this one. grateful to the noble Lord for clarifying that. I think that the question asked by my noble friend Lord Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, we certainly Forsyth related to the Act enacting independence rather shall look at it although whether we can have a debate than independence itself. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, between now and the House rising I just do not know. is right: what happens after independence is a matter However, I hope we are not confusing two things. Of for the Scottish Parliament. What happens between a course, a constitution would be a matter for the potential yes vote on 18 September and the date of independent Scotland. It would post-date independence. independence is a different matter because that is one I think the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, talked where one the present law of the United Kingdom about an interim Bill, and that was what was being would still apply. As I believe that the present law of discussed. the United Kingdom, including the Scotland Act, does make provision for Section 30 orders, the orders would have to be passed—we are not changing the Lord Hope of Craighead: I simply adopted the procedure of them—by both Houses of this Parliament, language of the Scottish Government. They produced as well as by the Scottish Parliament. this draft Bill to carry the matter forward as from independence day on an interim basis until the new I have also indicated to the noble and learned Lord, constitution forecast at the end of the Bill was passed. Lord Hope, that there are legal issues and doubts It is incredibly important to know what we are to about whether that would be an effective way of doing make of the interim Bill. Among other things, it it, because there is a concept that we cannot use secondary proclaims that every Scots person is to be a citizen of legislation to effect an outcome that is totally contrary the European Union as from independence day, although to the intention of the original legislation—as Hadfield we all know that Scotland will not be a member of the has it. The original legislation was not enacted to European Union. It is full of flaws of that kind and we establish an independent Scotland, so using a Section simply cannot give them carte blanche to pass it 30 order to bring about de facto independence could through without discussion. be challengeable. That ultimately would be a matter for the courts, so I will not put it any higher than that; but such a course of action could be fraught. I hope Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, what an that that is clear. independent Scotland does after independence day would be a matter for an independent Scotland. I On responding to the particular points about the think that is common ground. If it wants to legislate interim, I will bear in mind what is being sought. nonsense then it can. That would be the decision of an independent Scotland. Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Before my noble friend sits down, is he saying that there is no question of a Section 30 order being used to effect this? Lord Cormack: I am very troubled about this, as many of us are, against the background of the deal the Government did with the Scottish Government. My Lord Wallace of Tankerness: Yes, that is what I said. friend the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, nods vigorously. It would not be the right way and would be susceptible Can we at least have an absolute undertaking from my to legal challenge. noble and learned friend that when the Government The Scottish Government have set out proposals have considered this we will have a full Statement in that contradict the agreement set out in the Electoral the House and an opportunity to ask questions? Commission statement. The Electoral Commission 1233 Scotland: Independence[24 JUNE 2014] Scotland: Independence 1234 statement makes it very clear, and both Governments I apologise—I should have said more about the agreed, that as far as reserved matters are concerned, overwhelming challenge of a new United Kingdom. I the United Kingdom Government would continue to had quite a bit to say on that. I will only say that I have be responsible for them. That is what the law is, and it heard noble Lords. Obviously, I cannot give a commitment will continue to be so until the date of independence. tonight about a new convention for the whole of the United Kingdom, but I hear the comments from all I shall conclude briefly. We have had a very good round the House—cross-party and cross-country, and debate, and we have been told to be positive. Such has not just about the United Kingdom but about been the success of the United Kingdom, however, decentralisation. These are matters on which my colleagues that the yes campaign perhaps makes the best case for in government will wish to reflect with the seriousness us. If one looks at the Scottish Government’s White with which they were put forward in this debate. Paper and at the yes campaign, one sees that such is I have tried to answer as many questions as I can. I the success of the United Kingdom, they want to keep sincerely hope that on the key date of 19 September so much of it. They want to keep the monarchy; they we will be looking forward and not having to deal with want to keep the currency; they want to keep the Bank some of the issues raised in the admirable report from of England; they want to keep the National Lottery; my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton and his they want to keep the NHS blood transfusion and committee. transplant service; they want to keep the Royal Mint; they want to keep the research councils; they want to Motion agreed. keep the air and maritime accident investigation branches; they want to keep the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management; they want to keep the Green Scotland: Independence (Constitution Investment Bank; they want to keep the Met Office; Committee Report) they want to keep the Hydrographic Office; they want Motion to Take Note to keep the UK benefits system; they want to keep the DVLA; they even want to keep “Strictly Come Dancing” 10.08 pm and “EastEnders”. What better advert can there be Moved by Lord Lang of Monkton for the United Kingdom than how much of it the independence-minded nationalists actually want to That this House takes note of the Report of the embrace? Constitution Committee on Scottish independence: constitutional implications of the referendum. We have shown that we have a remarkable partnership (8th Report, Session 2013-14, HL Paper 188) of nations. For all our achievements and all our successes, and for all the support we give each other in difficult Motion agreed. days, we have a United Kingdom of which we can be legitimately proud. House adjourned at 10.09 pm.

GC 79 Benefit Societies and Credit Unions[24 JUNE 2014] Benefit Societies and Credit Unions GC 80

2014 Act or before 1 August 2014 under existing Grand Committee legislation—including credit unions—as “registered societies”. The consequential amendments reflect those Tuesday, 24 June 2014. changes for Great Britain, but will preserve references to industrial and provident societies in Northern Ireland 3.30 pm legislation. Any new societies registering under one of the new terms from 1 August will not face any additional Co-operative and Community Benefit costs. For existing societies, only those that choose to Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010 amend their description may incur minimal costs; for example, to replace stationery or to amend website (Consequential Amendments) information. In any case, the sector has indicated that Regulations 2014 any costs as a result of registering under a new Motion to Consider description will be more than offset by the benefit of using language that is more transparent to the public and their members. 3.30 pm These regulations form a small part of the Moved by Lord Newby Government’s wider commitment to support mutuality. Beyond this, a number of changes to mutuals legislation That the Grand Committee do consider the have been progressed during this Parliament. Those Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and included a package of measures that came into force Credit Unions Act 2010 (Consequential Amendments) in April, which included: increasing the amount of Regulations 2014. withdrawable share capital an individual can invest in Relevant document: 1st Report from the Joint a society from £20,000 to £100,000, making it easier Committee on Statutory Instruments and cheaper for societies to raise capital; giving the FCA additional powers to investigate a society if suspected of unlawful or improper behaviour; making Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, the regulations represent insolvency rescue procedures available to societies that the latest step in the Government’s drive to deliver previously would have had no alternative but to be improved legislation for registered societies in Great wound up; and simplifying electronic registration for Britain, by which I mean co-operatives and community new societies. benefit societies, hitherto known as industrial and Linked to the regulations we are discussing today, provident societies, as well as credit unions. The regulations the Government also brought forward the Co-operative relate to how we refer to this group of businesses, and and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014, which make the necessary changes in secondary legislation was announced by the Prime Minister in January to enable new industrial and provident societies in 2012. The Act has now gained Royal Assent and is due Great Britain to register as either a co-operative society to come into force in August this year. It is a consolidation or a community benefit society. Act, which brings together and modernises the existing Around 6,000 co-operatives and community benefit legislation for co-operatives, and was requested by the societies are registered across Great Britain. They sector. come in all shapes and sizes and cover a diverse range Today’s regulations are a necessary step in the of activities and industries. Their continued popularity work under way to strengthen the legislation for is evidenced by growing numbers of members. Some the co-operatives and community benefit societies. of these mutually run businesses already refer to They form part of the wider package of measures themselves as co-operatives or community benefit societies, implemented during this Parliament to strengthen and and many industry stakeholders now regard the expression support the mutuals sector. The changes included in “industrial and provident society” as old fashioned. these regulations have received wide support from the The sector requested a formal change of description sector. in legislation to modernise the language used to describe these businesses, which will enable them to become Lord Graham of Edmonton (Lab): My Lords, it more relevant to members and the general public. I gives me great pleasure to welcome this stage of the imagine that most people would have a sense of the legislation and the changes. In looking at my research, terms “co-operative” and “community benefit society”, I am reminded of the efforts of John Roper—the but many might struggle to describe quite what an noble Lord, Lord Roper—who played a large part in “industrial and provident society” might be. getting credit unions on to the agenda. Since then, These regulations will make amendments to secondary Ed Balls in his ministerial capacity welcomed the issue legislation consequential upon the commencement of and moved it forward. Of course, the present Minister, Section 1 of the Co-operative and Community Benefit who I am delighted to see in his place, and his colleague Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010 as re-enacted in the noble Lord, Lord Freud, have played a major part the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies in keeping the issue alive. Act 2014, which lays down new registration requirements I go back not to 1844 but to 1852 and the first for societies in Great Britain, other than credit unions. industrial and provident societies Act. One of my As well as requiring a new society to be registered studies has been co-operative law, and from 1852— as a co-operative society or a community benefit society, certainly to ‘63 and then into the ‘90s and beyond—there the 2014 Act refers to all societies registered under the have been genuine attempts to improve the raison d’être GC 81 Benefit Societies and Credit Unions[LORDS] Benefit Societies and Credit Unions GC 82

[LORD GRAHAM OF EDMONTON] as a credit union as anybody else, provided that they of co-operation as an economic form. There has been have sound principles, that there is oversight and that, no objection. I am a Newcastle upon Tyne co-op from time to time when required, the members will be society man, and one of my jobs for a period was to faced with the fact that they will have do something pay out the dividend accrued. That was the way in drastic. To the Minister and anyone who is listening I which many members of what I am still proud to call say, on behalf of myself and others in the Co-operative the working class saw an opportunity to save for the movement, “Well done”. rainy day; it was marvellous. They would keep and take out of the dividend what they wanted, but they The best guarantee of an audience at the City Hall knew it was safe, secure, guaranteed and that it was in Newcastle was when there was a fear that the their own. dividend was in danger or that a general manager was going to be sacked. I was there on two occasions We come to governance and changes, and of course when those things were prospective. We have to this is not the place to go wider than the topic that we avoid that situation. I speak as an ex-student of have here. That is why I was delighted to notice in a the Co-operative movement. There are a number document from ABCUL, the association of British of other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord credit unions, that the ministry has already earmarked Tomlinson, who have a strong connection with it. I £38 million to be available for leadership training. wish this legislation well and congratulate all three It has been a great sadness to see something go main parties on having done a very good job on catastrophically wrong for an organisation of this behalf of millions of people. kind—there are thousands of credit unions and more Some reference was made to numbers. I have some than a million individual members—but one discovers figures, too. There is great co-operative movement in that it was not the principle that was wrong, but the Ireland. It is strong on credit unions. The same goes manner in which it was led or monitored. As a for the West Indies. A number of people have come consequence, there have been blemishes in the credit from there and established their lives here. Across the union movement; I will not say more or less. However, world, the principle of co-operation as an economic I am delighted that one aspect of the legislation is and social force is well founded and I am proud to to continue the good work that has already been done stand here and say on behalf of all those people, to ensure that those who have the temerity and courage “Thank you very much”. to start a credit union will have the backing in due time of an organisation and of leadership. There must be nothing more catastrophic or devastating for a Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab): My Lords, it is the duty of group of people, be it a small or large, who have put Her Majesty’s loyal Opposition to oppose, so I have their faith in a savings bank or whatever one likes to worked on these regulations to see what I could call it only to find that they have been let down by a oppose. The answer, frankly, is nothing. It is good of lack of oversight and tightness. Having followed the the Minister to review the general primary legislation development of legislation, I am certain that, in time, connected with this statutory instrument. I thought credit will be given to all three main parties in the that in general this was the privilege of the House and many people will be rewarded by organisations Opposition, but never mind. I congratulate him, and which are sustainable and guaranteed. the noble Lord, Lord Graham, for his complimentary I have nothing specific to talk about, because, being speech. Together, their speeches are a gratifying associated with the Co-operative movement even now, review of this movement and the work that all parties I am certain that if there were matters to be raised I have done to improve it. However, as I read these would have been asked to raise them, and I have not regulations, they do no more than change the name been. I am not looking for trouble these days, so I do of “industrial or provident societies” to “co-operative not write to somebody asking whether there are any or community benefit societies”. I hope that the points they want to make. If a point wanted to be Minister will reassure me that it does no more or less made, they would have made it to me and other than that, because otherwise I have misread the Members who have a close association with the paperwork. Co-operative movement. I simply say to the Minister The Explanatory Memorandum goes on to say who has carried this legislation through that he will that the change has been requested by the sector. Will he get no trouble from me, because I understand that the Minister outline how, because in the paragraph a great deal of consultation has been done with the about consultation in the memorandum, it says it was Co-operative Credit Union, Co-operatives UK and carried out in 2007? I know this has been going on for ABCUL, which plays a vital part in providing leadership. a long time, but is the sector’s request to change the I believe that this is as big a step forward as was taken name more recent, and through what mechanism has in 1844, when the Rochdale Pioneers took a leap that request been made? Finally, I think it is clear, but forward. They were not the first co-operative in the will the Minister confirm this? As I understand it, it is country, but they are looked on as the founders of the a matter of choice for societies that are already modern Co-operative movement. After 180 years, who registered or who register before 1 August whether is to blame anybody for accepting that something that they change status. I am curious how they will was relevant in 1844 and 1852 requires an overhaul, exercise that choice. Will the FCA communicate with which is what it has had with this legislation? There all industrial and provident societies to see if they has been no malice or agitation. I think that it is want to change their former registration? With those generally accepted in the country that small businesspeople really trivial questions, I indicate our support for this are just as competent to run the affairs of a body such instrument. GC 83 Benefit Societies and Credit Unions[24 JUNE 2014] Legislative Reform Order 2014 GC 84

Lord Newby: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Legislative Reform (Clinical Lord Graham of Edmonton, for his generous welcome Commissioning Groups) Order 2014 to this statutory instrument. He spoke eloquently about the role of the divvy. The divvy had a particular place Motion to Consider in the Newby household because my mother in 1931 went to work in what was then called the check department 3.52 pm of the Leeds co-op. Her role was to work out the divvy Moved by Earl Howe for the members of the co-op. She—and as a result I—have fond memories of the divvy and the part it That the Grand Committee do consider the played in working-class communities at the time. The Legislative Reform (Clinical Commissioning Groups) noble Lord is absolutely right to say how important it Order 2014. was to people. That explains why the Co-operative movement was so strong at the time. Relevant document: 26th Report, Session 2013-14, from the Regulatory Reform Committee The noble Lord also drew attention to the funding that the Government are giving to the credit union The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department movement. As he said, the DWP has earmarked of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Lords, this draft £38 million for its credit union expansion project. The legislative reform order would amend the National aim is to get credit unions to have a million more Health Service Act 2006 in two ways. First, it would members by 2019. This is an ambitious target, but it allow clinical commissioning groups—CCGs—to form will be achieved only if the leadership of the sector is a joint committee when exercising their commissioning well qualified. As the noble Lord said, skilled practitioners functions jointly. The NHS Act already allows two or are needed to make it work and there are a lot of more CCGs to exercise their commissioning functions downside risks if they do not, so we hope that this jointly, but does not make any provision for them to funding will substantially help in doing this. I can also do so via a joint committee. Secondly, it would allow tell the noble Lord that only yesterday the Treasury CCGs to exercise their commissioning functions jointly launched a 12-week call for evidence and opinions on with NHS England, and to form a joint committee what more we can do to help credit unions to grow when doing so. The Act already allows NHS England sustainably in future. We hope that we are not resting and CCGs jointly to exercise an NHS England function, on our laurels, but are continuing to push this agenda and to do so by way of a joint committee, but it makes forward. no provision for them jointly to exercise a CCG function. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked a number This draft order has already been scrutinised by the of specific questions. He was right that this statutory Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee instrument just changes the nomenclature. It has no and I was pleased with its recommendation that other substantive components to it. He asked about it should continue under the affirmative resolution consultation. The original consultation that is referred procedure. I hope it will assist the Committee if I set to in the documentation was undertaken in 2007, and out the need for these proposals. this was taken into account when the 2010 legislation I emphasise from the outset that the proposed was drafted. These regulations flow from that 2010 arrangements are voluntary. One party cannot impose primary legislation and simply implement that. The the arrangements upon another. This allows CCGs to Treasury did not undertake a formal review, but talked retain their autonomy and to continue to make decisions to Co-operatives UK and other stakeholders in the that are in the best interests of their local populations. sector informally, just to confirm that their view had At the moment, the lack of provision for CCGs to not changed. I can confirm that their view had, indeed, form joint committees is placing a burden on CCGs not changed. They very much welcome this, simply as and preventing them from working in the most effective part of bringing the nomenclature and thereby the and efficient way. Without the power to form joint sector more up to date. committees, CCGs have had to find other means of reaching joint decisions which are binding. As an I can confirm that the regulations are a permissive interim measure, some CCGs are forming “committees piece of legislation. An industrial or provident society in common”, whereby a number of CCGs may each currently in existence can do nothing if it opts to do appoint a representative to a committee in common; so. The noble Lord asked what is being done to those representatives then meet, and any decisions explain what the options are if one opts to change. that are reached are taken back to their respective The FCA is preparing guidance notes to bring the CCG for ratification. This leads to costs in people’s legislation to the attention of the sector, and to set out time to sit on multiple committees and administrative what its members need to do if they are changing resource, as well as extra financial costs. status. However, as I said in my introduction, the cost involved in doing that will be minimal. We hope that For example, I am aware of the limitations that the many current industrial and provident societies will current commissioning arrangements are having on simply do it as they change their stationery and upgrade the East of England Ambulance Service. NHS Ipswich their websites. and East Suffolk CCG is lead commissioner for ambulance services across the east of England, and the remaining Having dealt with noble Lords’ points, I hope, I 20 CCGs in the region are associates to that commend the regulations to the Committee. commissioning arrangement. The CCGs established a commissioning consortium, which brings together all Motion agreed. 21 CCGs to discuss both delivery against the ambulance GC 85 Legislative Reform Order 2014[LORDS] Legislative Reform Order 2014 GC 86

[EARL HOWE] where they are being exercised jointly with another contract and future strategy for ambulance services. CCG or NHS England. These proposed arrangements However, due to the restrictions of current legislation, will not lead to reconfiguration by the back door. The the consortium itself is not delegated any decision-making purpose of these changes is to support more effective authority. While most CCGs party to the consortium joint working and to allow discussions about service have delegated a level decision-making authority to redesign to take place across the health economy. The the individual officers who attend the consortium, the proposed changes will not affect the existing processes contract with the ambulance service is large, and decisions and tests that any significant service redesign needs to may exceed delegated limits. In those instances, decisions follow. I beg to move. must be referred to CCG governing bodies, introducing a delay to the decision-making process. Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, the NHS Act Clearly arrangements such as these are burdensome, 2006 started us down the route of commissioning; particularly when compared to the simplicity of a obviously, with the updating and creating of clinical joint committee. Primary care trusts, the predecessors commissioning groups under the Health and Social of CCGs, were able to form joint committees at which, Care Act 2012, we are still moving into fairly new subject to the terms of reference, all participating territory. Inevitably, CCGs are feeling their way in the PCTs were bound by the decisions reached. We therefore new structures, including joint working. I am pleased want to allow CCGs a route in which, when they are that the order will now legislate more formally for collaborating with other CCGs, they can take decisions CCGs to work closely with each other and with NHS in a properly constituted forum. Furthermore, CCGs England, and to jointly commission where appropriate. when agreeing to form a joint committee will have the One of the many reports that come back to your freedom to agree terms of reference, including voting Lordships’ House from CCGs and NHS trusts is the arrangements. This will not dilute the emphasis of desire to gold-plate any system with legal advice. For local decision-making. example, we know that the Health and Social Care Act Similarly, the lack of any power for CCGs to exercise enabled tenders to be taken for quality and efficacy, their functions jointly with NHS England is also causing not just on cost, as under the 2006 Act, yet we hear inflexibility. NHS England and CCGs may wish to time and again that lawyers tell commissioners that act jointly to commission better out-of-hospital cost is the most important point. I also welcome the services, for example. Making sure that services are issues around CCGs and National Health Service integrated around the needs of the patient is the best England overlapping. The Minister referred to some way of ensuring that care is provided in a safe and of those; it is also important where there is a pathway compassionate way that most benefits the person. in rare diseases, where there may also be some linkages This amendment would allow CCGs and NHS England, with CCGs perhaps implementing at a lower level. as co-commissioners, to develop and agree strategic That will smooth the way for that to work well. plans and delivery processes that take into account the To this non-lawyer at least it seems extraordinary effects of services across a whole pathway, facilitating that CCGs could not form joint committees to commission design and continuity of services across primary, secondary over boundaries. This draft order now makes it crystal and community care. clear that joint commissioning and the arrangements For example, CCGs and NHS England may wish for ratification by the separate CCGs are not just to review service delivery across specialised services, acceptable but welcome. It is encouraging to see in the commissioned by NHS England, and any impact redesign accompanying notes that the consultees to this order may have on non-specialised acute services, commissioned also see it as a cost-efficient measure; I add to that by CCGs, in order for services to be designed and smoother working systems and, most importantly, delivered to achieve the best possible outcome for the joined-up services for users of the NHS. population served. The inability of NHS England and CCGs to jointly exercise a CCG function and to form a joint committee when doing so makes it more difficult Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, on the to make timely decisions, which can delay the ability face of it the order is unexceptional, although I agree to improve patient safety. Furthermore, the amendments with the noble Baroness that CCGs have got themselves would encourage the formation of new commissioning into a ludicrous state of getting legal advice on almost partnerships, allowing the most effective approach to everything. It is patently obvious that there are ways in be used. which they can come together to make decisions. We also see that as regards tendering, where, despite the The amendments would build upon them by giving commitments the noble Earl made, we see CCGs CCGs greater flexibility and control in the way absolutely panic-stricken about making a decision not that they work. As CCGs become more established to tender out services. If ever one wanted evidence of organisations, they need to have more flexibility to the foolishness of the arrangements we now have, it work together, and with NHS England. In any would be the kind of reaction we are seeing from commissioning structure you have in place, there CCGs. are always going to be some decisions that may I will ask two or three questions on the order. I need to be taken locally and some that span a wider noted in paragraph 4.6 of the consultation paper that population. the department points out that there was opposition CCGs are still accountable as individual organisations. to the proposal to enable CCGs and NHS England to Joint arrangements mean that each CCG is still liable form joint committees. I understand that while it is for the exercise of its commissioning functions, even mainly about CCGs forming joint committees, they GC 87 Legislative Reform Order 2014[24 JUNE 2014] Legislative Reform Order 2014 GC 88 can also form a joint committee with NHS England. organisations, they are now going to be given co-power The necessary protection is laid out in paragraph 3.6 with NHS England to contract with the individual of the paper we received, which says that: members of the organisations in relation to primary “The Minister considers that the proposals maintain the necessary care services. I can well understand why the local area protections. CCGs enjoy a degree of autonomy”. teams do not have the capability to manage the primary I thought that they were going to be autonomous, but care contract. It was patently obvious that they were there we go; it has been qualified in that document. not going to do so. But what it comes back to is that The paragraph goes on: the governance of CCGs is hopelessly compromised. They ought to be public bodies with much greater lay “To this end, NHS England is under a duty … to promote the autonomy of persons exercising functions in relation to the health representation. If they were, we would have much service. The wording of the proposed amendment to section 14Z9 more confidence in the arrangements, but they are is designed to ensure that a CCG function can only be jointly not. They are dominated by contractors who have a exercised with NHS England where both parties are in agreement, vested interest in the decisions made by those clinical thus preserving a CCG’s autonomy”. commissioning groups. I put the point to the noble Earl that if you talk to Finally, I turn to page 3 of the impact assessment CCGs, they do not feel autonomous, because they are that provides the evidence base for the supporting used to being beaten up by NHS England—receiving paper. It is implied that decisions to deal with specific incessant phone calls from the local offices of NHS funding requests might be dealt with by a joint committee. England—and they and the accountable officer find That, of course, is a euphemism for rationing services. themselves under huge pressure when there are problems Again, we know that some CCGs are making highly with the system. Therefore the idea that there is an dubious decisions about restricting patient services to equal partnership between NHS England and the which NHS patients are entitled. I would like some CCG as regards a joint committee is simply not believable. reassurance that if the joint committee is going to do Clearly, local area teams will use that mechanism to this, it will be done in public, not behind closed doors, force CCGs into joint committees and then force and after full consultation. Recently I have been decisions through. I would have thought that that is particularly concerned about evidence which shows patently obvious from what is happening in the field in that NICE technology appraisals are not being fully the National Health Service. I would be grateful to implemented in the National Health Service. I remind hear the noble Earl’s comment on that. the noble Earl that it is a legal requirement for a NICE Of course, I have no problem about CCGs working technology appraisal to be fully implemented by the together so that we can get rid of some of the current NHS. Again, I would like to hear what the Government fragmentation. If we take my own patch of Birmingham, are going to do to ensure that CCGs actually play fair where three and a half CCGs cover the city, there is no by the public and do not unnecessarily restrict treatments. chance, it seems, of actually having a strategy for the The order itself is unexceptional and it is supported, city which can embrace all the trusts and commissioners but I have to say that the performance of some CCGs unless it is done jointly. I would like to hear from the leaves a lot to be desired. It is because of the potential noble Earl how in fact this mechanism is going to be of the joint committees to make major decisions that I used to encourage CCGs, which are patently too small raise some concerns today. in many areas, to come together so that we get some decent strategic planning instead of the fragmented Earl Howe: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and inadequate contracting process that so many CCGs friend and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for their comments are undertaking at the moment. and questions. My noble friend was quite right to cite I would also like to ask the noble Earl about the example of rare diseases and specialised services consultation when decisions are made by a joint as one which will be assisted by the order before us, committee. I assume that the consultation rights and because while we have a mechanism for NHS England responsibilities would apply to a joint committee as and CCGs to get together to discuss these things, we much as they do to an individual CCG but, as there is lack the ability for decisions to be taken about the scant evidence of CCGs undertaking proper consultations, whole patient pathway. This, of course, is vital when I suppose that that is not much comfort. It would be we look at the aspiration to join up services for the good to hear a little more about how CCGs are going benefit of patients—not just the specialised care they to work this. I must say that after two years of this receive in a centre of excellence, but also the follow-on wonderful new system, I am still waiting for a letter care that they receive in the community. I therefore from my CCG saying that it actually feels some form share my noble friend’s welcome for this aspect of the of accountability to me as an individual, but alas that order. letter has yet to come. From the legal cases which have I turn to the questions put by the noble Lord, Lord been brought against some CCGs, it is clear that they Hunt. A key plank of the Government’s reforms was do not have any sense of accountability to their local to increase clinical commissioning. We do not want to population. That is not surprising because they are depart from that, or from the principle of giving membership organisations. They are owned by GP clinical autonomy to those who run clinical commissioning practices, which are the members of the organisation. groups. We want to encourage them to enter into This morning I listened to Simon Stevens, appearing arrangements that have the buy-in not just of the local before the Public Administration Select Committee, GPs, but of health professionals in their local area and talk about the proposal to hand over some of the the local authority. We have been clear on the need for contractual responsibilities of NHS England to CCGs. a different splitting out of the commissioning functions— So, in effect, not only are the CCGs membership for example, to avoid CCGs commissioning individual GC 89 Legislative Reform Order 2014[LORDS] Defibrillators GC 90

[EARL HOWE] Lord Storey (LD): My Lords, today we debate a GP practices and the conflicts of interest that may topic that is close to many of our hearts. I note that arise. The arrangements for safeguarding against conflicts defibrillation has been raised in your Lordships’ House of interest are still in place, but what we hear is that as 57 times in some form or another since 1995, but organisations become more established they need a bit today I hope that we will see some movement on this more flexibility to work together. In any commissioning issue. Much like the conditions that trigger the need structure, there is going to be that need and this order for a defibrillator, this issue will refuse to go away until is about allowing those CCGs to work more efficiently. we fully grasp it. Of course, I am talking about defibrillator I emphasise that point about allowing them and not provision and what the Government plan to do to requiring them to do so. There is no compulsion about ensure that all schools, all sports clubs and all public this. The noble Lord indicated that he felt that CCGs service buildings include AEDs as part of their first-aid do not feel autonomous. I am surprised to hear that, kit provision. because the arrangements that we have put in place My concern and my involvement in this area stem are designed to ensure that local area teams of NHS from the tragic death of a young Liverpudlian boy, England are there to support CCGs, not to oppress or Oliver King, in March 2011. He suffered a cardiac breathe down their necks. That is my experience as I arrest during a swimming race at his school, King go about the health service. This is about joint working David High School, in Childwall. Sadly, he passed and taking decisions together in the best interests of away as a result of SADS, or sudden arrhythmic death patients. syndrome. His father, who has campaigned tirelessly The noble Lord asked me about transparency. CCGs for the past three years, is here today. I pay tribute to are under certain duties with respect to patient involvement him and the foundation that he and his friends set up and transparency when they exercise their functions. in Oliver’s memory, campaigning to get SADS provision Those duties would continue to apply when they exercise in every Merseyside school and for their life-saving their functions jointly with other CCGs. The duty to work in Merseyside and across the nation. They do consult still applies. CCGs will be under the statutory tremendous, largely unsung work. I thank them and obligations as to patient and public engagements. However, encourage the Government to pay heed to their it will be up to committees to agree precisely how they suggestions. will work in accordance to their obligations. Some In advance of today’s debate, I have received several consultation responses that we received refer to committees briefings, notably from the London Ambulance Service, in common that meet in public. Joint working does which sent me its Shockingly Easy campaign booklet. not have to entail working behind closed doors. That title sums up this issue perfectly.St John Ambulance, The noble Lord asked about NICE technology the British Red Cross and the British Heart Foundation appraisals. He is right that some CCGs are slower also sent me notes, as of course did Mr King. I thank than they should be under the legal provisions that them for their assistance and their efforts. pertain to adopting and commissioning approved All present will know that a defibrillator is a machine technologies flowing from NICE. To shine a light that delivers an electric shock to the heart when someone on that, as he may know, under the “Innovation is having a cardiac arrest. Used in conjunction with Health and Wealth” provisions, we have the NICE cardiopulmonary resuscitation, defibrillation massively implementation collaborative, which is the mechanism increases one’s chances of survival during heart failure. designed to measure the extent to which local Every second counts, as they say, and I echo calls for commissioners adopt approved technologies. The defibrillators to be made available within easy reach of innovation scorecard is also designed to show how anyone who needs such life-saving treatment. innovation in various forms is being rolled out and diffused across the NHS. I believe that mechanisms Much like the provision of fire extinguishers and such as these will be enormously helpful in exposing first-aid kits, defibrillators save lives. However, unlike the laggards in the system. the case with the regulations that mandate fire-extinguisher I hope that I have answered the noble Lord’s questions. facilities and first-aid kits, currently no legal safeguards I shall write to him if I have failed to cover any require provision of defibrillators. This is a disgrace, substantive point. especially when we think that there are 60,000 out-of- hospital cardiac arrests every year in the UK. Survival Motion agreed. rates, which have barely improved over the years, range from 2% to 12%. In London, one’s chances of survival shoot from 28% to 80% in cases where a trained person uses an AED. Defibrillators I shall not labour the facts any further, but they beg Question for Short Debate the question why, if we think it important to place first-aid kits and fire extinguishers in our schools, old people’s homes and sports clubs, we are holding back 4.15 pm defibrillators. More to the point, why is it that we have 16, soon to be 17, defibrillators on the Parliamentary Asked by Lord Storey Estate? If it is good enough for your Lordships’ House, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action surely it is good enough for everybody. they will take to ensure that all schools, sports clubs I shall return to the wider question and the topic of and public service buildings have defibrillators as this debate. I suggest that the first step towards making part of their first-aid kit provision. our communities more resilient to the devastating GC 91 Defibrillators[24 JUNE 2014] Defibrillators GC 92 effects of cardiac arrest must be to place AEDs in extinguisher quickly, you know the logo. Similarly, areas that see the highest number of cardiac arrests. you know the logo for a first-aid kit. However, there is To me this sounds like a no-brainer, and it is. I welcome as yet no universal logo for defibrillators, although the the move by David Laws and the Department for Minister did mention that NHS England is considering Education to encourage schools to install machines, all avenues to increase the uptake of bystander although I regret that, in this Parliament, we are not resuscitation, including the location and use of AEDs. yet any further forward in making them mandatory. I suggest that a universal logo, combined with their As well as the installation of defibrillators in places inclusion in first-aid kits and a comprehensive approach of high footfall such as schools and public buildings, to training and education, might be the way forward. we should not forget the other side of the coin, which Would the Minister consider taking a lead on this is education. People, young and old, must be educated issue, particularly with the NHS, by suggesting that we in how to use a defibrillator, whether in a school, a should look at adopting some form of universal logo? young offender institution or at work. Fortunately, Finally, a word from Mr King, who says that use of here in Parliament we are offered training. For the defibrillators is often, record, the next training session will be at 10 o’clock “the difference between life and death”. on 16 November in 7 Millbank, although perhaps that This fact has been recognised by the national clinical is a long time to wait. In order to make any investment director for heart disease, Professor Huon Gray, who I in defibrillators worth while, young people must have met with Mr King, as well as the Secretary of State, access to and be able to engage in first-aid and life-saving last year. Let the message go out from this short education. Only 7% of the population have the skills debate that lives can and will be saved by immediate and confidence to carry out basic first aid in an access to defibrillators. emergency, which is an appallingly low figure that must increase. What plans do the Government have to ensure a more comprehensive approach to first-aid education? 4.25 pm I know that it is not the done thing to use visual Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB): I congratulate the aids, and my noble friend will be pleased to learn that I noble Lord, Lord Storey, for tabling the debate this do not intend to do so, but a defibrillator is very easy afternoon. I felt compelled to speak after a chance to use. Youdo not actually need any training. Although encounter with a young girl and her family who I met Mr King has brought one with him, I do not suggest at the Paralympics in 2012. Ruby is a wheelchair user that he should show it to us, but even I could use it because she had a heart attack in school at the age of without ever having had any training. You just follow five. She is now 10. Luckily, and amazingly for Ruby, the simple instructions. However, it is still important her teacher had been on a course—I think just a week that first-aid training for all should be linked to that. before—and knew what she had to do to save Ruby’s I think that we agree on the need for and importance live. She was starved of oxygen for 40 minutes and left of defibrillators, but it is worth stating that they must with many severe impairments and a heart condition. be installed in areas where there are high numbers of Apart from one or two isolated cases that I had heard cardiac arrests. According to St John Ambulance, 74% in the news, this was the first time that I had met a of people think that it should be compulsory to have child who had had a heart attack, and it had a big AEDs in care homes, and I agree. Indeed, I suggest impact on me. Her parents are amazing and they give that we should examine the case for having them in all her an incredible and fulfilling life, but it led me to care-home settings, both public and private, because wonder whether, if there had been a defibrillator in the this is a topic that should cut through the distinction school, her life might now be very different. between public and private provision. Quite simply, it In researching for this debate I was contacted by a is too important not to mandate the use of AEDs number of people. One or two raised some legitimate across the board, whether that be in football clubs, questions about the potential cost of having this equipment cinemas, schools, train stations or churches. Indeed, I in every school and sports club versus the number of know of some churches that have defibrillators because heart attacks that occur. In the end, all members of they save lives. the public who got in touch were in support of equipment I am determined that we should do more. My noble in every school. I have seen figures suggesting that up friend Lord Nash, who supports efforts in this area, to 12 young people a week are affected by this and informed me on 3 February that, perhaps the Minister would clarify the scale of the “it is a matter for individual schools to decide whether to have problem. Obviously the cost per unit versus the cost of defibrillators and to arrange individual training”.—[Official Report, medical treatment constitutes a significant saving, but 3/2/14; col. 7.] this is not about money. It is about saving young Even though the governing bodies of maintained schools people’s lives—and other people’s lives. I was contacted must now make arrangements to support pupils with by a teacher who said that they had a defibrillator in medical conditions—we should remember from the their school; a teacher had had a heart attack and Children and Families Act the importance of the duty survived. of care in terms of medical conditions—perhaps we I was also contacted by a lady from a local community should extend that duty of care to those pupils who group who said that a person had had a heart attack at might suffer cardiac arrest. their centre and died. However, there was a lot of I want to raise one other issue, on which I have reluctance to have equipment in the centre because already written to my noble friend the Minister. It people were not sure about how to use it or about the concerns a universal logo. If you want to find a fire safety.Most of the time when we think about defibrillators, GC 93 Defibrillators[LORDS] Defibrillators GC 94

[BARONESS GREY-THOMPSON] clubs so that they would be able to access the right we think about something from a movie or TV when equipment. It is also important that we carry on everybody stands back and it is all very dramatic, pushing training courses. I know that they are provided rather than the modern technology which, I have been in many sports, but for a lot of voluntary sports clubs assured, is fool-proof. Someone puts the pads on and it raises issues around training, insurance and the the machine takes the decisions. No one has to make worry about what would happen. the decision about whether it is a heart attack or not, I did not realise until I saw this debate tabled that the machine does that. you can get a free app for your phone which enables We also tend to think of this occurring when somebody you to find the location of your nearest defibrillator. It takes exercise. There was a report in the Hampshire also has an emergency 999 button already on the Chronicle on 29 March 2014 about a Mountbatten screen so that you do not have to press all the buttons. School pupil in Winchester, Sam Mangoro. He nearly I have not tried it yet, and hope that I will not have to, died when he had a heart attack in a PE lesson. He was but things like that should be publicised. It is in that just 16. Again, he was really lucky. His life was saved moment of panic, when you see something happening, by trained members of staff who had access to a that you need all the help and guidance that you defibrillator. As a result of this, the parent-teacher can get. association of another school in the area, the Westgate We should take this matter very seriously. I want to School, purchased one. However, these are really hard see defibrillators installed in schools and sports clubs decisions for head teachers to take. Put “defibrillator” and generally more awareness about what can be done and “schools” into a search engine and there is a list of to help people if they suffer a heart attack. companies willing to sell this equipment. How does a head teacher, a parent or somebody raising money 4.31 pm know what is the right equipment to buy? The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I am I was therefore delighted with the Department for grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Storey, for raising Education announcement that the Government are this important issue and for keeping it to the forefront. working to identify suppliers. They will look at competitive When I was training to be ordained, I became used to price, because that is important, but also at the statutory some people going off for a little doze while I was guidelines and advice for schools on supporting pupils preaching. What I did not know was that, during my with medical conditions. It is important that the very first sermon, somebody—a very nice lady—would Department for Education and the Department of have a heart attack. Fortunately, she did not die and I Health take a lead on this, to guide PTAs and schools got to know her and her family very well during her and make sure that they buy the appropriate equipment. convalescence. I saw something of the impact of such This should also be on the school curriculum. My events on families; indeed, my sympathy goes out to husband, who is a triathlon coach, recently went on a those who know something of this in their own family. first-aid course and learnt how to do heart massage. It Each year in the UK, some 60,000 people suffer a reminded me that the last time I did anything like this sudden cardiac arrest. Ambulance services are able to was when I was a Brownie a very long time ago. Until attend on average only 25,000 of those and the my husband mentioned it, I thought that I knew what corresponding survival rate is depressingly low. Sudden I was doing. I remembered that the numbers five and cardiac arrest is therefore a key issue for us. two were involved, but I could not remember whether it was how many times I was meant to breathe or how Time is of the essence in such instances. Survival is many times I was meant to press somebody hard. It often dependent on quick access being gained to medical made me realise that if I saw somebody have a heart assistance in the form of CPR, defibrillation and then attack, I would be extremely reluctant to get involved, excellent follow-up care. I am told that, for every because I would be more worried about causing minute that elapses following a cardiac arrest, the any more damage than doing something that could victim’s chances of survival decrease by 23%. If CPR help. My daughter helpfully joined the conversation. alone is available, the survival rate remains alarmingly She is 12 and in school she was taught what to do, low—at around 5%—but if defibrillation is conducted using the song “Nellie the Elephant”, which is a within five minutes of the arrest, the survival rate brilliant way of doing it, and she would be able to step soars to some 50%. Given the stretched resources of in and help. our ambulance services and the large and often complex geographical areas that they serve, it is not always easy Since I saw this debate tabled, I have noticed signs for professional medical assistance to be with the in many more shopping centres and elsewhere showing victim in that very short timeframe. Even the current where defibrillators are. It made me realise that I am eight-minute general response target is reached in only not sure where they are in the Palace of Westminster. I two-thirds of incidents. It is obvious, therefore, that suppose that we are lucky to have a number of eminent for assistance to reach the victim before time runs out, doctors or professors here, so we are in a pretty good we need some more help to be available locally. place if anything should happen to us. The technology of defibrillation, as many of your Most sports clubs are very small. They are run by Lordships will know far better than me—I am volunteers and do not have a lot of money, so the cost not a medic—has advanced in spectacular ways in of installing such equipment would be prohibitive recent years. The development of automated external even though I think that a lot of them would want it. defibrillators—AEDs—represents a huge step in the If there were to be a scheme for schools, it would be an right direction. AEDs allow ordinary people like me excellent idea to extend it to local sports voluntary to administer defibrillation to victims of SCAs. They GC 95 Defibrillators[24 JUNE 2014] Defibrillators GC 96 are fully automated and include audio and sometimes Bedfordshire—part of my area of responsibility—to visual instructions so that defibrillation can be carried develop plans to install units in a number of towns out safely and effectively. and villages. In recent years, thanks to the hard work of charities For all of this work to have maximum effect, it is such as the British Heart Foundation and the Community essential that there are good levels of communication HeartBeat Trust, many AED schemes have been initiated, between the emergency services, the community first which have served communities to good effect. For responders and AED volunteers. In many cases, the example, the villages of Wooburn Green and Bourne emergency services alert the community first responders End in Buckinghamshire recently set up their own in the event of an SCA, who are able to respond and AEDs to provide the communities with the ability to treat the victim if possible. That is a great example of treat those who suffer from SCAs in the area. In my bringing help to patients promptly, which maximises own diocese, Buntingford Cougars Youth Football their chances of survival, rather than simply relying Club, which provides football training in East on bringing them to hospital. The Community HeartBeat Hertfordshire for over 200 people, recently acquired a Trust also works in collaboration with ambulance defibrillator for its ground thanks to money given to it services to ensure that all parties are aware of where by the local council. Thanks to the British Heart AEDs are located and that those AEDs are properly Foundation and the Football Association, 11 Hertfordshire maintained and ready for use. football clubs recently acquired their own AED units. I am convinced that the growing use of AEDs These things are happening; it is just a question of should be seen as a great and positive development in whether we can encourage them to happen even more tackling the relatively poor survival rate of SCAs. often. These examples show just how much awareness However, AEDs certainly should not be a replacement has increased and how the chance of survival for those for the emergency services, nor are they an alternative who suffer SCAs has likewise increased. The tragic to improving access for all to emergency medicine. case of Oliver King and the almost miraculous incident They are not suitable for all types of SCA, so it is involving the former Premier League footballer Fabrice critical that calling 999 is still the first action taken Muamba just go to show how increased awareness of upon witnessing an SCA or coming across a victim cardiac arrests and the need to administer defibrillation who has recently suffered one. None the less, as part of is making a difference. our integrated emergency care system, in the hands of trained volunteers, community-based AEDs have the That awareness, as has been pointed out, has extended potential to save many thousands of lives each year far beyond sports clubs and into schools, which are and their deployment in schools and sports clubs as providing both defibrillators and the training that has well as in public places—and, yes, I hope in churches been referred to. I will give two other examples from and church halls as well—ought to be encouraged and my diocese that I know of: Bishop’s Stortford College supported. I hope that we can move that forward. and the Robert Bloomfield Academy in Shefford both have AED units and are able to administer defibrillation if required. Those local examples show that things are 4.40 pm moving. Why are we not thinking about what we can Lord Aberdare (CB): My Lords, I warmly congratulate do in our churches and church halls? I want to think the noble Lord, Lord Storey, on tabling this debate. It more about that; indeed, this debate has made me is a subject that is not only close to my heart, if your think more about it. On a typical Sunday in my Lordships will forgive a feeble pun, but quite literally a diocese, we have about 30,000 people in our churches matter of life and death for a significant number of and, over a week, it is probably double that number. our fellow citizens in the UK. Having listened to the With the church halls, many of which have lots of three excellent speeches so far, I could probably cut my events, we are certainly talking in excess of 100,000 own contribution to little more than the words, “Hear, people. These sorts of debates make a number of us hear!”, but I hope that I will be allowed to reinforce ask hard questions about what we can do ourselves some of the arguments and will be forgiven for inevitably rather than just looking to government to do things. covering a considerable amount of the same ground. Sometimes we just need local communities to get on No doubt that is due in part to my having received the with it. same helpful briefings from the bodies mentioned by I commend the work of community first responders— the noble Lord, Lord Storey, and indeed from the volunteers trained to administer basic medical assistance, House of Lords Library. I have to say that my heart including defibrillation. They carry AEDs with them sank as one after another of my points was made by and are often able to treat the victim before the emergency the previous speakers. I do not think that my heart has services have arrived. In the east of England alone actually stopped yet but, if it does, there is a defibrillator there are over 2,000 community first responders, who in the Peers’ Lobby. are able to reach those who have suffered SCAs. They As we have heard, some 60,000 out-of-hospital are, however, only able to reach about 20% of them, cardiac arrests occur each year in the UK. Somewhere which is where the work of groups such as the Community between 20% and 40% of them are estimated to occur HeartBeat Trust comes in. They help to fund the in public places, with nearly half of them being witnessed installation of community AED units and provide by bystanders. The remainder take place at home. Any education and training so that people are able to spot assistance that is provided at the scene by those bystanders the signs of an SCA and are able to use the AED units before the emergency services arrive can help to save effectively. For example, the Community HeartBeat life. In such cases, every minute that passes without Trust has worked with the authorities in Central intervention reduces the chances of survival by around GC 97 Defibrillators[LORDS] Defibrillators GC 98

[LORD ABERDARE] students as well. In that way, we can ultimately create a 10%. So what are the chances of survival from shockable nation of lifesavers, to paraphrase a quote the source cardiac arrest? In Oregon, they are as high as 56%, of which I have mislaid. while in Norway they are 52%. In the UK, the average comparable survival rate is only 20%. What accounts Many voluntary organisations, such as St John for the difference is, quite simply, the number of people Ambulance, the British Red Cross, the British Heart who have been trained in first aid. In Germany and the Foundation, the Resuscitation Council (UK) and Scandinavian countries, where first aid training in SADS—Sudden Arrhythmic Death Syndrome—UK, schools is mandatory, the proportion of people with do a good job of providing both information and first aid skills is estimated to be as high as 80%. training. I declare an interest as a trustee of St John It seems to be a matter of national embarrassment, Cymru Wales. I have now been trained in first aid to put it mildly, that only one in 13 people in the UK three times: by St John Cymru Wales, by St John feels confident that they could carry out emergency Ambulance under the auspices of the All-Party first aid. Parliamentary Group on First Aid, of which I am a vice-chair, and by the parliamentary Safety, Health Automatic external defibrillators can and do save and Wellbeing Service, which also covered the use of lives. They are a key part of the so-called chain of defibrillators. At least 14 parliamentarians have completed survival as defined by the British Heart Foundation the training offered via the first aid all-party group. and the Resuscitation Council (UK). That includes The Government have committed to enabling schools four elements: early recognition of a cardiac arrest, to acquire defibrillators at discounted prices, which I cardiopulmonary resuscitation, early defibrillation and welcome. However, they also believe that schools should post-resuscitation care. In order to improve survival decide for themselves whether to include first aid rates, that whole chain needs to be in place. AEDs training in their curriculum. That is just not working. themselves will be effective only, first, if there are The combined efforts of all the groups that I have enough of them; secondly, if they are in appropriate mentioned reach only a relatively small proportion of and visible places; thirdly, if they are accessible and students in schools—I believe about one in seven, or not locked away with the key nowhere to be found, 14%. This is nowhere near enough to address what about which I have heard stories from time to time; should surely be a significant national priority. and, finally, if people know how to use them and are Leaders of all five of these bodies signed a letter to the willing to do so. I therefore welcome the policy of Times last month, expressing their disappointment encouraging the wider installation of AEDs. Research that, at the same time as encouraging schools to buy by St John Ambulance indicates that the majority of defibrillators, people, some 79%, think that it should be compulsory to have AEDs in places such as NHS buildings, 74% “the government did not go further and insist on first aid education that they should be in care homes, as the noble Lord for all pupils and staff”. told us, 73% that they should be in large event venues I apologise for overrunning. I am very much such as concert halls, 67% that they should be in encouraged by the fact that I seem to have spoken for sports centres and gyms, 55% that they should be in no time at all, but that is presumably not the case. workplaces, 53% that they should be in hotels and 50% that they should be in supermarkets. At the very least, government should surely look at providing much more in the way of incentives and As important as having defibrillators in place is, of encouragement to schools. Subsidised AEDs, at least course, knowing where that place is. I was going to for schools in England, are a welcome start, but what suggest that this would be a perfect opportunity for an about subsidised training in how to use them? What app, only to hear from the noble Baroness that the app about awards and recognition for schools that achieve already exists. That is another good point gone. Moreover, the best results in numbers of students trained or in as the noble Lord, Lord Storey, mentioned, there are levels of proficiency attained? Incidentally, I welcome 16 defibrillators on the Parliamentary Estate and a the Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill, significant number of trained first-aiders who know which should help to overcome any concerns that where they are and how to use them, including, I people may have about the possibility of being sued believe, most or all of the House of Lords attendants. after trying to resuscitate someone. Some noble Lords may not be aware that the best number to call on the Parliamentary Estate in the Children aged 10 and above can learn the full range event of my having an emergency during my speech is of emergency life support skills, including CPR. From not 999 but extension 3333. That is the first point that the age of 14 they can be, and are, trained in using I alone have made. defibrillators. A significant number have had to use the skills that they have learnt to save the life of a All the AEDs that have been or are about to be family member or fellow student. Of the children on a installed, however numerous, well located and easily British Heart Foundation Heartstart programme in accessible, will be effective only if people know how to Northern Ireland, 98% enjoyed the training and 67% use them and are willing to do so. Current research shared what they learnt with family and friends. Separate shows that only one person in 10 knows what an AED BHF research found that 86% of teachers thought is and, of those who do, just half know how to use it. that emergency life support should be part of the Again, training is needed. The only way to increase, national curriculum, 78% of children wanted to be over time, the proportion of the population who have taught how to save someone’s life in an emergency and basic emergency life-saving and first aid skills is to 70% of parents thought that children should be taught teach those skills in schools, not just to teachers but to emergency life support at school. GC 99 Defibrillators[24 JUNE 2014] Defibrillators GC 100

First aid and defibrillator training is straightforward; in NHS buildings, care homes, concert halls, sports it is quick, requiring as little as two to three hours; it centres and gyms, workplaces, hotels and supermarkets. is cheap; it promotes self-esteem and citizenship; it is This seems persuasive evidence that the public would fun; and it can save lives. Without it, the Government’s welcome a more decisive response by the Government. laudable initiative to enable more schools to acquire In relation to schools, where I would have thought defibrillators may not—will not—be as effective as it there were an overwhelming argument for having a could be. So why on earth should such training not be defibrillator and trained staff—and indeed trained made mandatory in all schools? I look forward to the students—we are relying on the response which the Minister’s response to that question. Government have given. This is simply to say that it is up to each school, then relying on changes to the Children and Families Act in relation to the duties of 4.48 pm governing bodies and the common-law duty on staff Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, I to act in loco parentis while children are at school. We thank the noble Lord, Lord Storey, for starting this could expect a little more action now from the debate; I very much agree with his central points. I Government. Particularly in relation to schools, I want also pay tribute to the Oliver King Foundation and to hear that the Department for Education will reconsider Oliver’s father, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting its disappointing response so far. on a number of occasions. Indeed, I think that the The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made noble Earl would agree with me that the Liverpool a good point about the need to help people to use primary schools’ defibrillator programme is a remarkable defibrillators and for education programmes. I also effort on the part of the foundation, which embraces take her point about the need to help sports clubs. all primary schools in the city. As part of the project, Does the noble Earl not think it would be good for 12 staff in each school were able to receive training. It health and well-being boards to take this on? Because is a model for what ought to happen in the rest of the of the potential collaboration between local government, country. the health service, third-sector and many other Noble Lords have given us a lot of information organisations within a locality, might they not spearhead about what is happening and raised some of the an approach to getting many more defibrillators fitted concerns. I will refer to the research undertaken in and people trained to use them? Hampshire which was published earlier in the year, the Finally, Public Health England is a wholly owned authors of which included the South Central Ambulance subsidiary of the Department of Health. Could the Service NHS Foundation Trust and the University of noble Earl be tempted to give an instruction to Public Southampton. They reviewed all calls to the ambulance Health England to treat this as a priority for the service between September 2011 and August 2012 future? The Department of Health has a really positive following a heart attack. For all emergency calls made role to play if, through Public Health England and from locations other than a person’s home, the call health and well-being boards, this was seen to be handler specifically asked whether the caller could important and I am sure we could make much further access a defibrillator. If so, instructions were given on progress. how to use it. During the course of this study over a number of months, the service received just over 1,000 calls about confirmed cardiac arrests away from hospital, 4.54 pm which was the equivalent of one for every 600 members The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the public each year. For 44 of those incidents in of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Lords, I thank my 34 different locations, the caller was able to access an noble friend Lord Storey for giving us the opportunity external defibrillator—that is 4.25%—and it was to debate what is undoubtedly an important issue. I successfully retrieved and used in less than half the know that many people feel that better provision of cases, 18 cases, before the arrival of the ambulance. defibrillators could help save more lives of people who This gave an overall use rate of just 1.74% of all have a cardiac arrest outside a hospital setting—known cardiac arrests recorded, which the authors understandably as out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. I acknowledge in felt was disappointingly low and was apparently similar particular the work of the Oliver King Foundation to previous figures from the London Ambulance Service. in this area. Looking at the Hampshire picture, 673 defibrillators First, I emphasise that responsibility for the provision that could be accessed by the public were located in of defibrillators rests with ambulance trusts, which 278 places, including 146 devices in large shopping are undoubtedly best placed to know what is needed centres. The research also showed that only just over in their local area. Notwithstanding that, last year’s one in 10 nursing homes, around one in 20 railway Cardiovascular Disease Outcomes Strategy set out some stations and a similar number of community centres recommendations around defibrillators. NHS England and village halls had defibrillators. The suspicion is is implementing the strategy’s recommendations, which that figures in Hampshire are probably similar to includes working with stakeholders to promote the many other parts of the country. This shows the scale site-mapping and registration of defibrillators and to of the challenge before us, for which we hope for a look at ways of increasing the numbers trained in government response. using defibrillators. The strategy also acknowledged Noble Lords mentioned St John Ambulance, to that, although defibrillators are important, more lives which I am grateful for the briefing I received. The could be saved if more people had life-saving skills. As survey work which it undertook shows that a majority I shall indicate shortly, NHS England is also working of the public think defibrillators should be compulsory with stakeholders to help achieve just that. GC 101 Defibrillators[LORDS] Defibrillators GC 102

[EARL HOWE] The Department for Education intends to produce Schools are of course at the centre of their communities a protocol on the use and purchase of AEDs in and are often used for other purposes outside school schools. The guidance to which I referred asks schools hours. They are also frequently the location for sports to consider purchasing a defibrillator as part of their events and other types of physical activity. There have first-aid equipment and, if they do so, encourages been tragic incidents in which young children have had them to promote knowledge of cardiopulmonary a sudden cardiac arrest and were not subsequently techniques more widely in the school, among both able to be resuscitated. The number of such incidents teachers and pupils alike; I have already referred to is thankfully very low, but of course every child who that point. To help schools, we will be working with dies in this way is one child too many. The use of a the Department for Education to identify a supplier defibrillator may have made a difference in these cases, that will provide suitable defibrillators to schools at a which is why we are encouraging schools to acquire competitive price. We will provide schools with additional defibrillators in a broader package of measures designed advice on the installation and use of these potentially to ensure that the medical needs of children in our life-saving devices so that staff will feel confident in schools are supported. It might be helpful if I explain using them should the need arise. a little more about these measures, particularly in Safety in all sports is a matter for the national answer to my noble friend’s questions. governing bodies—NGBs—as the designated authorities We have introduced a new duty on school governing with responsibility to regulate their sport. The Football bodies which requires them to make arrangements to Association is working alongside the British Heart support pupils with medical conditions and to have Foundation to oversee a £1.2 million investment towards regard to new guidance on Supporting Pupils at School state-of-the-art automated external defibrillators at with Medical Conditions, which will come into force football clubs in England. This initiative, which started from this September. We will also inform schools via in 2013, will see almost 1,300 defibrillators distributed the “need to know” e-mail and the “myths and facts” to those clubs in which they will have the greatest documents, which are sent out to schools each term. I potential use. Through bulk purchase, the FA has absolutely agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- secured the defibrillators at a reduced cost and eligible Thompson, and the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, that clubs may apply for a defibrillator at a further reduced emergency life-saving skills are very important. Those cost. The FA’s partnership with the BHF has ensured skills can be taught as part of personal, social, health that this investment in defibrillators has the greatest and economic—PSHE—education. However, it is also possible impact. In addition, all FA-licensed coaches right that teachers should be free to exercise their are required to undertake a first aid course and should professional judgment in designing curricula that meet be able to administer CPR while awaiting the arrival the needs of their pupils. Giving teachers greater flexibility of emergency medical services. and freedom than ever before will help to raise standards and expectations for all pupils. However, one must put In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- that in the context of the role of governors of schools, Thompson, on who is responsible for the safety of who undoubtedly have an influence. The Government people participating in sports in local venues, the do not believe that the teaching of emergency life-saving national governing body for the particular sport is skills should be a statutory requirement, but we encourage responsible for the safety of athletes and/or their schools to teach PSHE, which may well include emergency training. In practical terms, the responsibility would life-saving skills, and have outlined that expectation in fall to the coaches and/or any other support staff at the introduction to the new national curriculum. the facility. We would expect the owner or manager of the building to be subject to any other relevant health On defibrillators, we believe that head teachers are and safety regulation or legislation, such as that on best-placed to make decisions about installing them in fire safety. schools. They may, for example, wish to have multiple AEDs, or to share a machine between two schools There is frequent discussion about screening for the located on the same site. By strengthening guidance causes of sudden cardiac death. Screening may have and working to secure the devices at a reduced price, the potential to save lives but it is not a fool-proof we are encouraging schools to install defibrillators. process. For example, I understand that the footballer mentioned by the right reverend Prelate, Fabrice Muamba, The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, asked who suffered a cardiac arrest during a match, had me to give some statistics in so far as I have them received several screening tests. However, it is important about the scale of the issue in schools. The Office for that we keep the issue of screening under review. That National Statistics says that the total number of cardiac is why the UK National Screening Committee, which deaths of patients of school age—that is aged five to advises Ministers about all aspects of screening, is 19—is 88, although we do not know how many of reviewing the evidence for screening for causes of those deaths occur in schools. However, I have some sudden cardiac death in people between the ages of very interesting statistics from the London Ambulance 12 and 39. The review is looking at the most up-to-date Service. In London, between 1 April 2012 and 31 March international evidence, including evidence from Italy, 2013, there were 3,848 patients with a presumed cardiac where all competitive athletes are offered screening. origin to their arrest and in whom resuscitation was There will be a public consultation on the review this attempted. The breakdown of location for these shows autumn. that 79.2% were in the home or in a care home. Of the 800 cases which happened in public, 1.1% were in a Noble Lords raised with me separately the need to sports centre and 0.3% were in a school. I shall make a make sure that, when a person dies of sudden cardiac further comment about that in a moment. death, potentially affected family members are identified GC 103 Defibrillators[24 JUNE 2014] Education Institutions GC 104 and are offered counselling and testing to see whether range of stakeholders we have collaborated with to they are also at risk. We know that this does not develop the new statutory guidance for schools that I always happen. That is why in last year’s CVD strategy mentioned earlier. I know that they include my noble we said that work would begin to improve the necessary friend, with the Health Conditions in Schools Alliance, processes. I can tell the Committee today that, since along with a range of other cardiac organisations such the strategy was published, NHS England has met the as the Oliver King Foundation and the British Heart chief coroner to discuss what can be done. At the Foundation. Their advice played an instrumental part beginning of the year, the chief coroner wrote to local in shaping the arrangements that we are now introducing. coroners asking them to make the families of those who had died of the condition aware that it may be inherited and encouraging them to contact either the Education Institutions: Autonomy and British Heart Foundation, Cardiac Risk in the Young, Accountability or their GP. Question for Short Debate On the general question asked by my noble friend Lord Storey about why the Government should not be 5.09 pm providing more funding for defibrillators, I am sure he will agree that we must direct NHS resources responsibly, Asked by Baroness Perry of Southwark particularly now. As I indicated earlier, the statistics show that most out-of-hospital cardiac arrests occur To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment in the home, which that means that in our view more they have made of the appropriate balance between lives could be saved if more people had life-saving the autonomy and the accountability of educational skills. NHS England is continuing to work with the institutions. British Heart Foundation, the Resuscitation Council (UK) and other organisations on how best to increase Baroness Perry of Southwark (Con): My Lords, it the number of people trained in basic life-saving was the French Prime Minister, François Mitterrand, techniques. The BHF and the Resuscitation Council who, on introducing reforms of education in France in (UK) have both produced a variety of free publications the 1980s, declared that accountability had to be “le to help members of the public understand the importance contrepart même”—the exact balance—to the autonomy of basic life-saving techniques, as well as offering of institutions in the education system. We need no training through the Heartstart scheme in various persuasion today that the issue of accountability of mediums that enable more individuals to learn the schools and teachers, as well as the degree of autonomy basics of helping to save someone’s life in the event of that they should be allowed, is central to the future an emergency. shape of our education system. Rather than starting with the accountability side of But I come back to the point I made earlier: since the equation, I begin by asking how much freedom February 2007, ambulance trusts have been responsible schools and teachers need if they are to accomplish all for sustaining the legacy of the National Defibrillator that they and we hope for our children’s education. Programme. To address a question asked by the noble There is plenty of evidence to show that granting Lord, Lord Hunt, we undoubtedly expect the freedom to professionals to do the job they are trained commissioners of urgent and emergency care who and motivated to do is the surest way to achieve high take part in discussions at health and well-being boards quality. to engage with ambulance trusts in an appropriate way and, if necessary, to feed in their views to the In his excellent book, Education, Education, Education, priority-setting process that the boards engage in. the noble Lord, Lord Adonis, says rightly that, “governors—and the headteachers and management teams they The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, asked whether I appoint and sustain—need to be unambiguously in control of have numbers for the people who are trained in life-saving their schools without managerial interference from local and skills. I understand that 3.5 million people have received national bureaucracies”. emergency life support training through the Heartstart This, he says, is the magic ingredient of the success of scheme. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of academies. I agree. It is the quality of leadership in a St Albans correctly referred to the important role school which determines its success, which means played by community first responders. I have with me good governors, a good head and a good management an extensive note which unfortunately I do not have team. time to read out, but suffice it to say that CFRs carry Of course, as we have seen all too recently, there can automated external defibrillators and are trained and be governors who are not capable of good governance, equipped to provide oxygen therapy. Finally, my noble and heads and teachers who get it wrong, but this does friend Lord Storey asked me about a universal logo. I not mean that the model is faulty. As Samuel Johnson am very happy to take that point away and ask Huon said—in what is my favourite quote—it is, Gray in NHS England to consider the matter. I will “happier to be sometimes cheated than not to trust”. then feed back to my noble friend as appropriate. Through the huge expansion of academies and free In closing, I would like briefly to take this opportunity schools, this Government have had the courage to to pay tribute to charities such as the British Heart trust schools and teachers. I rejoice in that. Foundation and the Oliver King Foundation for their We have at present possibly the best generation of tireless work in placing defibrillators locally and raising teachers that we have ever enjoyed. They are well awareness of sudden cardiac death. I would also like qualified and well educated, with strong support available to take a moment to acknowledge and thank the wide from heads and senior staff for those who enter the GC 105 Education Institutions[LORDS] Education Institutions GC 106

[BARONESS PERRY OF SOUTHWARK] In my view, it is not possible to overestimate the profession for the first time. I pay tribute to the value of this change. By applying the broad professional previous Government for the Teach First initiative, judgments that teachers accept and share, Ofsted can which has brought some outstanding young graduates become a tool to reward good schools and good into our schools. This Government have made teacher teachers for their creative ways of achieving the best quality rightly central to their policies, and new entrants possible outcomes for their pupils. It can also become to the profession are of the highest quality, as are a more developmental and less regulatory tool that many of their older colleagues. It therefore makes will spread good practice and encourage those schools absolute sense to trust their professionalism to the which are struggling to succeed in providing the high- maximum extent. quality education that other comparable schools have Teachers, like doctors with their patients or other achieved. client-centred professionals, are more motivated to do Examination results are the second measure of the best for the pupils in their charge than to seek the accountability by which schools are rightly judged. approval of those above them in the hierarchy. We This has not always been a reliable measure to use. want them to feel that way, for that way quality of When schools and their pupils were allowed a wide provision lies. However, as Mitterrand said, this freedom choice of subjects at GCSE, the results were hard to needs to be exactly balanced by accountability. The compare. Those schools, and there were many, which public who pay their taxes for public services, as well avoided basic English and maths, for example, might as the parents and students who benefit from the achieve good GCSE results overall, but when their public service of education, have a right to know performance including English and maths was measured, whether the provision offered is of good quality and it was not so impressive. In one school, 100% of the appropriate for the needs of its recipients. students achieved five good GCSE grades, but only In achieving the delicate balance of accountability 45% included English and maths. The EBacc was and autonomy, it is important that teachers and heads therefore a much-needed incentive for all schools to are not distracted from their prime self-motivation include these basic tools, and now the new standard towards their pupils by the imposition of too much allowing more choice at key stage 4 is an innovation bureaucratic regulation. We need them to be looking that will raise true performance standards for all young into the classroom and the children in it, not looking people. The inclusion of high-quality technical and out to the inspectors and regulators. Good schools vocational qualifications that was announced last week and good teachers are not driven by their external will at last bring real quality to areas that are attractive regulators; they take them in their stride, recognising to the many young people whose motivation is more that if they behave with professional dedication to the practical than academic. task at hand, the results will be what the regulators Finally, the long-debated issue of value added seek. For this reason, I welcome and applaud the has been recognised in a simple and fair way by the much-needed changes which this Government have planned introduction of progress 8 as a measure for made in the two key tools of accountability: inspection secondary schools. This charts the progress from entry and examinations. standards to GCSE performance and will be the measure Ofsted was set up for the best of reasons: to inspect of whether a school is achieving appropriately. At last, every school often and thoroughly.Such a remit demanded a school’s performance will be measured in relation to a huge taskforce. By the time the excellent Sir Michael its own intake rather than against schools with very Wilshaw came into office as chief inspector, more than different pupil populations. 2,000 people were involved in inspection, employed by I am proud of our Government and the developments private contractors, mainly part-time and often with in both autonomy and accountability which are being scant educational know-how or even none at all. Quality introduced. Above all, I hope that through these changes control of their activity had therefore to resort to the many excellent teachers who serve us so well in giving them a list of predetermined items in boxes to schools and colleges every day will find that their be ticked, rather than trusting informed, senior dedicated and creative work will flourish, and that professional judgment. As a tool of accountability, they will welcome them. Ofsted in this form far too often simply alienated teachers. More seriously, it could, especially for the 5.17 pm less secure and inexperienced teachers, reduce their creativity to meeting the tick-box requirements, which The Lord Bishop of Birmingham: My Lords, I welcome might bear little relation to a broad education. the opportunity to address the topic of autonomy and It is therefore with huge pleasure that I welcome the accountability in our educational institutions, particularly decision to trust future inspection mainly to the 400-plus in our schools. As noble Lords can imagine, coming HMI who are experienced, senior professionals whose from Birmingham, this is a very pertinent topic. We judgment can be trusted, and to dispense with the are experiencing a perfect storm of anonymous allegations. contractors. HMI can judge the key index of a school Birmingham City Council is conducting various and the experience of the pupils. This may or may not investigations, of which I am a part, into those allegations. match the items in the box-ticking exercise, but it will There is confusion among ordinary people between go to the heart of whether the school is providing the politics and process, about which the noble Baroness pupils in its care with an education fit for the values of has been telling us and which the Government are our society, and which allows every child and young promoting to achieve high standards. There is also person to achieve across the widest possible range of confusion between faith and fear. These are softer, elements in and beyond the curriculum. organic areas that need to be introduced and understood GC 107 Education Institutions[24 JUNE 2014] Education Institutions GC 108 when we are trying to raise standards, achieve excellent accountability to monitor and evaluate the pace and exam results, and put in place a proper inspection scale of the improvements required, and an appropriate regime. Of course, we all want our children to have an balance between support, challenge, self-evaluation excellent education. We want high academic standards and external evaluation. In a church school, we would and high vocational standards for pupils for whom go further, to give a guarantee to parents, communities, those are appropriate. We especially want good pupils and staff about what are the various granular governance, and that is something we are all attending expectations that they would find in various areas to to at the moment. do with religious education, prayer and worship, In terms of our accountability and sense of autonomy, spirituality, valuing of pupils, opportunities that there we also want a real and in-depth understanding of are at any good school, and what the school should what it means to have an ethos in our schools—whether undertake to achieve those values to do with ethos. they be church or community schools, academies or I am arguing today for accountability and autonomy, free schools—of both diversity and unity. These are but in our experience, the way to make this succeed in areas that local people care about deeply in trying to all our schools is to make sure that there are proper, achieve the very best for their children. local and trusted arrangements: trusted by pupils, staff and parents, by the whole community and, of You might want me to mention a wonderful biblical course, by the Secretary of State. pattern of accountability and autonomy, where human beings in many faith traditions are expected to grow up to be responsible, engaged and fulfilled. In the 5.23 pm Christian scriptures, if you turned to Matthew chapter Baroness Shephard of Northwold (Con): My Lords, 18, you would see the appropriate introduction about I congratulate my noble friend Lady Perry on securing receiving the kingdom of heaven like a child, and the this debate and on the expert and typically penetrating parable of the lost sheep, where so many people can go way in which she introduced it. It is also a privilege to wrong and stray from a pattern that is set out for follow the right reverent Prelate, who comes fresh them. Then there is the command to forgive; not just from Birmingham to tell us how it feels there right once or twice but an infinite number, of 70 times now, and with some gloriously practical suggestions. seven. There is a culture of empathy and sympathy, Even better, some of them are based on parables. but also a culture of real responsibility, and in the There can be no argument about the fact that the more middle of that, there is a little teaching about autonomy an institution has—whether it is a school, accountability and how it might work in an ordinary company, university or public body—the more likely it community. is to be successful. If your neighbour offends you, go and see them That belief underpinned the introduction of local personally. If that does not work, take two or three financial management and GM schools in the 1980s, trusted people with you and allow them to examine from both of which far-reaching reforms the academies the controversy or problem. If that does not work, movement developed. Equally, it is beyond argument then bring the whole community together and examine that all truly successful institutions, especially publicly the issue. If it is unresolvable, then there are harsh funded ones, regard the establishment of clear, accessible things to do. There are examination or inspection lines of accountability between them and those they judgments. However, there is a pattern there which serve as a sine qua non. If you do not have those lines, ordinary, local people can instinctively understand you are not a success. There should, therefore, in and which would allow us not only to have autonomy theory, be no conflict between on the one hand the locally, but also to have responsibility where it truly autonomy of educational institutions, and on the other lies, in those local communities: responsibility for the absolute clarity of the systems put into place to education and unity, but also for rejoicing in diversity. ensure their full accountability. In our own Church of England in Birmingham, I When local financial management was introduced should mention the expansion we have had in the in Norfolk schools in the late 1980s, school heads, academies programme which the Government have until then accustomed to asking, and blaming, county been promoting. This is something we have embraced hall for everything, realised that the buck would now and found to be very effective. However, to achieve the stop with them. After some initial nervousness and ambitions of the Government and the excellence we after, together with their governors, appropriate and want for our children in a great variety of communities, thorough training, the vast majority relished the extra we have formed a diocesan board of education trust, responsibility and flexibility it gave them, especially as which publishes, for example, an academies accountability it was made crystal clear to the wider community that framework. Such a framework enables both support that local accountability was underpinned by the more and challenge in our local schools. In other words, it general accountability of an elected local authority. expects responsibility and people to be accountable, That was a halfway house between full LEA control but at the same time, where there is difficulty, they and a step towards autonomy, and it was always should have the appropriate support at the appropriate intended to be transitional because the movement level. towards full schools autonomy was unstoppable. No This lays out clear requirements and expectations. one today is making the case to restore the role of It is a local framework of support and there is proper LEAs. The 22,000 schools in England now include challenge within it. There is complete clarity about the 2,500 academies and 174 free schools, with many more improvement of tasks before the school, the resources to come. The overwhelming majority of those academies that are available to tackle the tasks, clear lines of and free schools are hugely successful, transforming GC 109 Education Institutions[LORDS] Education Institutions GC 110

[BARONESS SHEPHARD OF NORTHWOLD] We are again in a transitional period. I spoke earlier their pupils’ life chances. The problems with the system, of the training and oversight arrangements put into as we have seen in Birmingham and elsewhere, often place to ensure the success of the 1980s schools reforms. boil down to a lack of appropriate oversight and an Those simple principles are still relevant. Academies incomplete preparation of heads and governors for and free schools will transform our education system. what autonomy and accountability actually mean in The best academy chains already prepare staff and practice. We are once more in a transitional period. governors to be accountable. That work is being done and the experience is there. We do not need a nation-wide, I have a very simple definition of accountability, one-size-fits-all solution, just to use all the clichés. which I do not find an abstract concept; it is about What we need is reassurance that it is understood, no knowing who to speak to if things go wrong, as I matter how humdrum it may be, that the preparation rather think the right reverend Prelate said. The of heads, teachers and governors for ensuring the Government website on complaints guidance—which accountability of all our schools is as important as I assume applies to all schools, including academies their academic performance. and free schools—encourages parents first to raise matters of concern with the head. But what if he or she is the problem? Well, then you go to the members 5.31 pm of the governing body. However, will you know or can Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton (Lab): My Lords, you find out who they are without going through the I begin by saying how much I agree with the noble head, and will they tell the head? Alternatively, you Baroness, Lady Shephard, in her analysis that local can contact the DfE direct, although that might be authority control no longer exists. I get so angry when daunting for some. However, does the department people refer to schools needing local authority control. now have the resources to deal with the volume of Control disappeared years ago. Local accountability, cases it receives in the Schools Complaints Unit, and as the noble Baroness said, is important. how, practically speaking, are they dealt with? I hope I refer to personal experience in education in Lancashire that my noble friend will be able to tell us the answers over a 20-year period as a councillor. It is often to both of these questions. forgotten that all the great innovations subsequently I think that LEAs’ roles are now limited to child claimed by all political parties—such as nursery education, protection cases, and Ofsted—which is in a way a long a full year in reception class and education maintenance stop—can deal only with whole-school issues. I think I allowances—began as local authority initiatives, working am right in saying that it cannot seek to resolve or accountably with the local community.I cite one example establish cause for any individual complaint. There are in Preston, which occurred because the tax arrangements now regionally based Ofsted offices; perhaps my noble meant that Skelmersdale suddenly lost Courtaulds to friend can tell us what the role of those offices is and Spain. That was one of the initiatives that led to whether staff in them have systematic contact with encouraging young people to stay on in full-time education local schools and a systematic report back. and training as an alternative to going on to what many now agree were youth training schemes with no I will give two examples of the accountability problem. future. That is important. A town council in Norfolk with no educational role at all has just called a public meeting in order to oblige I praise the many leaders of our Catholic and the local academy trust to explain its policies and Anglican schools and Jewish leaders in Lancashire, plans to parents and the public following the resignation and my noble friend Lord Patel of Blackburn, for of more than half the teaching staff and, I think, the developing in the early 1980s an education document head. There is undoubtedly an inside story here, and I about education for a multifaith, multicultural society do not know what it is, but there is no doubt that the that was totally agreed across the community. In the children’s education is currently suffering from the early days in Blackburn, we saw the BNP rising. The uncertainly. In that case, although it is an isolated one, response was to bring people together rather than to the situation does little to demonstrate an understanding let people divide us. of accountability within that particular academy system. The noble Baroness referred to teacher innovation. These will be isolated examples. At another local I pay tribute to the late Lord Joseph, who said of the academy, no fewer than 16 key members of staff have curriculum that there was no place for a politician to left, feeling unable to complain to the head or to the make a comment about which books teachers should chair of governors because she, the chair, has been put use; I shall say no more on that. in place by their employers, the academy chain. Now, that is not good. The students, parents and staff in the He was also superb on political education. In a school do not know who to speak to. This is bad, but it statement circulated to all Lancashire schools, he said is isolated and not at all like the pattern of overwhelmingly that, when questioned by secondary school pupils, a successful academies. In Birmingham, accusations of teacher could say that they were a member of CND extremism in schools are serious enough. However, as but should also say that other teachers or their serious, if not more so, are the allegations that complaints parents or councillors might hold totally different were made but the lack of a clear accountability views. Sir Keith took the view that education was an system apparently made it impossible for them to be important process, and our best teachers recognised dealt with. I know that four or perhaps five investigations that. are now under way, so I will say no more about that In looking at accountability and the role of local because we shall all know more when those investigations authorities in the future, it is important that we recognise have reported. the importance of responding to the needs of the GC 111 Education Institutions[24 JUNE 2014] Education Institutions GC 112 whole community and of the school. In particular, 5.41 pm children facing problems should be able to draw on the Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD): My Lords, I am range of local authority services, with a co-ordinated grateful for receiving permission to speak in the gap. I approach taken towards social and housing problems, was interested in speaking in this debate because at the which afflict the lives of our children. moment, as the governor of a fairly newly converted My conversations with the noble Baroness, Lady primary academy, I am in negotiations with our academy Perry, go back over decades. I am sure that she will chain over the scheme of delegation between the local remember the local authority higher education funding governing board and the academy chain. That has body and the former Preston Polytechnic, now the thrown up an interesting conundrum about the role of University of Central Lancashire—I blow the trumpet the local governing board in relation to the academy for it at this stage—which developed the most diverse chain. student intake of its time. It accepted people from That is first illustrated by who appoints the head. If all sections of society. It co-operated successfully with the academy chain appoints them, and delegates Lancaster University and the Open University, with responsibility for management and organisation of students being able to switch between them for different the school to the head, the local governing body has modules or different years of their course. Perhaps an very limited responsibilities; it becomes a very largely answer to the funding crisis now being faced by people advisory body. Yet when Ofsted comes along, it will going into higher education would be to look back at look to and examine the local governing body, which that sort of experience. will be held responsible. Therefore the relationship between the local governing body and the academy I have worries about accountability and judging chain is an extremely important one. schools. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, I believe that HMI has a deep fund of experience which is If one takes the traditional local authority model, invaluable in looking at how to help schools. London the local governing body appointed the head and was First gave us a very good example of heads from one responsible. It set the scheme of delegation and had school going into another school, of linking and pairing. broad strategic responsibility. However, if the head In the early 1980s, which were not easy financially, we did not perform, the local governing board had to in Lancashire developed curriculum co-ordinators. A make sure that it was accountable. When Ofsted came good individual teacher in a specific subject or year along it would examine the local governing board for would be given supply cover to go and work with doing that. If, however, the academy chain is to appoint another teacher. That is the variation on the scheme the head, and sets the scheme of delegation and that London First operates, but it costs money, because organisation, there is a very considerable fuzziness one has to have people able to leave their own class and there, and it is not clear whom Ofsted should examine go into another. and hold responsible. You also lose the link between them, as the local governing body represents the local I worry about the local community becoming more community. That is an interesting issue, and not one fragmented. I worry that we may not have the balance that we have fully resolved, although we are discussing of experience. I remember a Conservative county it. However, I thought it was worth raising in this councillor—she was the aunt of the noble Lord, Lord debate. Horam—being appalled when we were interviewing for a head teacher in a school in a very deprived area. Quite obviously, county councillor Mrs Horam was 5.43 pm uneasy about the candidate who had been the most Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab): My Lords, I forthcoming. She had answered all the questions beautifully am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, and, in despair, Marjorie turned to me and said, “Is for tabling this debate today and for giving us a chance there any other question you could ask?”. I grasped at to have what has been a well thought-through and— the fact that that candidate had been on a course to despite the shortage of numbers—very detailed and identify gifted children. I asked, “Was it a good course? interesting debate. The debate was also very topical, Was it useful—was it great?”. She answered, “It was a sadly, for the wrong reasons. As we know, a number of superb course and I learnt a lot from it, but it wouldn’t examples have hit the headlines which are an illustration be useful in a school serving an area like this”. At that of the fact that the Government have not found the point Marjorie Horam put her pen down and we right balance between autonomy and accountability, nailed her. and that a number of challenges remain. That is It is important that there is a thread of responsibility particularly sad because when that balance fails, it is in making appointments and judgments about teachers, the children’s education which suffers, and many of which must involve those with experience—like Marjorie, these young people they will never get a second chance who knew that something was wrong—and be able to to recover those lost years from an education that has draw on that. Those children come from communities been damaged. Therefore we all have a responsibility which have both very diverse problems and some very to get this issue right. similar problems. In the middle of dealing with the We know, for example, the issues that have been problem of surplus places, which was a fraught experience, in the headlines recently: the collapse of Discovery I had to talk to people about meeting the needs of all Free School, concerns over the mismanagement at the children. I worry that we are in danger of continuing E-ACT academies, the poor educational standards at to provide schools where they are not needed, and not the al-Madinha Free School and the financial concerns providing them where they are. at Kings Science Academy. All those remind us of GC 113 Education Institutions[LORDS] Education Institutions GC 114

[BARONESS JONES OF WHITCHURCH] schools recently inspected, five out of the six found to what can go wrong if we do not get these policies right be inadequate were academies. I hope that the Government and rush them through. As the National Audit Office are coming to realise what we told them all along: that said, 5,000 schools and rising cannot effectively be monitored “the primary factor in decision-making has been opening schools from behind a desk in Whitehall. The Minister will at pace, rather than maximizing value for money”. know that this point was made to him in a private There is a concern about the pace at which these briefing by civil servants recently. They advised that, changes have occurred. as ever more bad publicity came from failing schools, there would be a growing public realisation that the Now we have the turmoil at the Birmingham schools department did not really have the tools to enable it to and the Trojan horse allegations. This was an issue intervene effectively. that the Minister’s predecessor was worried about back in 2010, but was then unwilling or unable to I hope that the Government are now reflecting on intervene. We know now that the Permanent Secretary what has gone wrong with this policy. Perhaps the has been asked to investigate that issue. We await the Minister will share with us details of the steps that outcome, but I would be grateful if the Minister would they are taking, rather belatedly, to put in place an confirm that the Permanent Secretary’s report will be intermediary tier of accountability. made public when it is concluded, so we can all share On these Benches, we already have proposals that the lessons. I should tell the noble Baroness, Lady we believe will address this accountability deficit. David Shephard, that one of the rumours coming out from Blunkett’s recent report sets out an effective blueprint Birmingham was that people felt they did not have to devolve power down to local areas and ensure that anywhere to go. The complaints existed and they were all schools are supported and challenged to improve. desperate to have their voice heard, but people felt This echoes the argument made by the right reverend that, for whatever reason, it was not being heard at a Prelate and, indeed, by the noble Baroness, Lady local level. We therefore all have something to learn Shephard, that we need more local oversight and from that. involvement in the performance of schools. Under our Now, four years on, we have a situation where proposals, a new director of school standards would schools which were given a clean bill of health by be appointed in every area. The director would have Ofsted suddenly find themselves being downgraded powers to intervene in underperforming schools, to on re-inspection, leading to questions about Ofsted’s broker collaboration and to commission new schools. role, independence and judgments. We cannot be sure The issue of collaboration between schools marks a that these concerns and problems are contained only clear distinction between our approach and that of in one city. Already, new allegations are coming to the Government. My noble friend Lady Farrington light elsewhere, each one again highlighting that there commented on the London Challenge, which was is a problem about the local oversight of what is introduced by the last Government. It was highly happening in our schools. successful in transforming poorly performing schools Whatever the outcome of the inquiries now taking in London and went on to achieve some of the fastest place, particularly in Birmingham, I hope that the improving schools in the country. The key difference Minister recognises that the impact on community in that approach was that it was done through a policy relations has been particularly damaging. I could not of sharing best practice and collaboration between have put better myself the issues raised by the right schools. It happened in London, and my noble friend reverend Prelate about the challenges to the local went on to point out where it happened elsewhere in community that have occurred in the way the allegations the country, such as in Lancashire. We need to learn have come to light and been handled by all sides, more about what schools can do in terms of collaboration particularly by the media. That is a particular challenge rather than have them acting as isolated, autonomous for us. We also perhaps expect too much from Ofsted, institutions. because it is now the only intermediary between individual A recent OECD report has confirmed the importance academy and free schools and the Secretary of State. of this approach. It states that: In a sense, it is put in an impossible position, because “Knowledge about strong educational practices tends to stick it is expected to oversee, in quite some detail, a growing where it is and rarely spreads without effective strategies and band of autonomous schools, facing it with particular powerful incentives for knowledge mobilisation and knowledge challenges. management”. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Perry, that The report goes on to identify a number of high- because of Ofsted’s style and the way it behaves when performing PISA countries and regions, including some it goes into schools, there have been a number of of Michael Gove’s favourites such as Finland, Japan occasions when it has lost the confidence of the teachers and Shanghai, and shows that they have strong histories in the schools and the governors. That is a real concern of co-operation networks and shared resources. Those to us when it is the only port of call for many people. are what have made them successful. But that does not Like the noble Baroness, I welcome the fact that the happen by osmosis. The plan has to be laid down and inspectors have been brought back in-house and that determined, with a clear expectation that this is the quality is being driven up, because it was long overdue. way schools will behave, and rewards have to be linked Of course, not all the schools caught up in the to it. turmoil in Birmingham were academies. While I am The report goes on to address another clear dividing sure that Birmingham City Council has its own governance line between ourselves and the Government, which issues that it needs to address, the fact is that, of the 21 is on the importance of high-quality teachers. Again, GC 115 Education Institutions[24 JUNE 2014] Education Institutions GC 116 this point was made eloquently by the noble Baroness, country into 50 bureaucracies, each with their own Lady Perry. It emphasises the need for continuous layers of management. We feel that that would basically professional development. We on these Benches believe be a retrograde step. that all teachers should be qualified and expected to As the PISA findings show, the more freedom given be involved in continuous professional development, to schools, the better the performance of the whole and should indeed be periodically revalidated. The system. In sponsored academies open for three years, OECD data support this approach. Further, this research for example, the proportion of pupils who achieved has been backed up by the Sutton Trust and shows five good GCSEs, including English and maths, has that teacher quality can make as much as a year’s increased at twice the rate of local authority-maintained difference to the learning progress of disadvantaged schools. Converter academies are more likely, against children, so it is a very important tool when addressing the new tougher Ofsted inspection framework, to retain the issue of social mobility. their “outstanding” ratings, or to improve from “good” To sum up, while we share some of the Government’s to “outstanding” than LA schools. desire to give teachers autonomy over the curriculum Combined with this is the outstanding success of and how subjects are taught, we believe that it has to the free schools programme. I should also mention go hand in hand with the professionalisation of teaching that academy chains, with their clear lines of sight and evidence of continuous school improvement. The mentioned by my noble friend Lady Shephard, are problem with the Government’s approach is that schools working particularly well, as recently outlined in an sink or swim, and sometimes they sink. When they do, excellent study by the University of Southampton. Of they take with them a cohort of children and their course, these chains and other local groups are very aspirations and dreams. We do not think that that is much focused on schools working together locally to the right approach. We believe that driving up teacher create a less, rather than more, fragmented school quality, allowing for early intervention in all schools, a system. new element of local oversight and, most important, building in an element of continuous improvement On the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of through learning and collaboration, are the right way Birmingham’s point about local arrangements, I assure forward. I hope that the Minister will be able to agree, him that—certainly since I came into office—we have and I look forward to hearing what he has to say. concentrated the academy programme on local regional clusters of schools working together, such as in his own diocese. It has worked well in the London Challenge, 5.54 pm to which the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, referred. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools The free schools programme has been an unqualified (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, I thank my noble friend and outstanding success; I use the word “outstanding” Lady Perry for securing this important debate and for advisedly. Free schools are inspected by Ofsted after her insightful speech. I also thank all noble Lords for only four or five terms from opening and, so far, of their valuable contributions. Autonomy and accountability those free schools which have been inspected, 24% are the two key pillars of our school system, and the have been rated “outstanding”. This is a truly remarkable OECD PISA results show clearly that greater autonomy experience and the facts speak for themselves. I am coupled with strong accountability can lead to a better- sorry that the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, is still in performing school system. Strong evidence of this can denial about this, but those facts are pretty powerful. be seen in countries such as New Zealand and Poland. The fact that we have closed one and a half free By contrast, we have seen in Sweden the perils of an schools with 200 pupils in them—although that is autonomous system which is not strongly coupled significant for those 200 pupils and their parents— with accountability, and we can see in Wales the compares not only to the 24% “outstanding” figure shambles created when you have neither. It is therefore but to the 175,000 new places we have created under critical to strike the appropriate balance and we have the free schools programme. done exactly this in creating a self-improving, school-led By comparison, 73 local authority maintained schools system, which has the resounding success of the academies have gone into special measures this year alone, and and free schools programmes behind it. As my noble 38 council-run schools have been in special measures friend Lady Perry mentioned in quoting the noble for 18 months or more. In 2013, Ofsted found that one Lord, Lord Adonis, the academy programme gives in three local authority action plans in relation to schools the magic ingredient of the freedom to run underperforming schools were not up to standard. As their schools in the best interests of their pupils. my noble friend Lady Shephard said, no one is making We are continuing to work to bring decisions much the case for reinstating the local authority model. closer to schools through the introduction of our eight Indeed, Ed Miliband said exactly that himself in other regional school commissioners, through which we are place only a few days ago; although, as I have said, the trusting school leaders to run their own system and 50 bureaucracies planned by the Labour Party are, in provide the department with much better local intelligence fact, a return to the local authority system. to enable it to insist on matters to which my noble We are committed to increasing autonomy for all friend Lady Shephard referred. Unlike the Labour schools, not just academies and free schools. Through Party, we believe that breaking the country into eight reforms linking pay and performance, bringing teacher regions run by leading heads and supported by other training closer to schools and reducing bureaucracy leading heads on their teacher boards is the way to run and box-ticking, and dramatically reducing regulation, the system. The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, referred we have made it easier for schools to focus on what is to the Blunkett report, which talks about breaking the important: ensuring that children succeed. With Ofsted GC 117 Education Institutions[LORDS] Education Institutions GC 118

[LORD NASH] As my noble friend Lady Perry mentioned, in secondary reporting that schools improved faster last year than school we have introduced new accountability measures at any time in Ofsted’s history, we are clearly getting to provide clear information and give a fair and balanced it right. Autonomy must be strongly coupled with picture of each school’s performance. She was quite accountability and, under this Government, academies right about the failure and falseness of the exam and free schools are held more rigorously to account accountability system previously. As a result of the than council-run schools. scandal of false equivalents that operated previously, under the previous Government the number of pupils All schools should have strong financial controls in doing a core suite of academic subjects fell from 50% place. However, academies and free schools have stronger to 22%. All the evidence from all successful education and tougher financial frameworks and are held up for jurisdictions around the world is that it is necessary for greater scrutiny than council-run schools. That enables pupils to do that core suite of subjects, particularly swift resolution if there are any financial issues. In those from a disadvantaged background. I am delighted local authority maintained schools, it is the local to say that, under this Government, the number of authority that has responsibility for financial oversight. pupils doing that core suite as a result of our EBacc is The frequency and depth of audit is variable and now back to 36%, and we expect it to rise further this maintained schools are often not subject to the summer. same rigour as academies and free schools, which must publish annual audited accounts submitted As the noble Baroness mentioned, our new to the EFA. We monitor those carefully and will accountability measures include: progress 8, which investigate immediately and diagnose any problems. will track the progress of all pupils of whatever ability That accountability mechanism works extremely well. throughout their school careers, and should focus schools on the attainment of all pupils rather than on We also have the ability to issue a pre-warning what Tristram Hunt has described as the great crime notice if we have any concerns. Since 2011, we have of the C/D borderline; attainment 8, the percentage of issued 44. Over half, 26, were for the relatively few pupils achievingaCgradeorbetter in English and academies approved under the previous Government; maths; and the EBacc. Alongside that, our destination 18 were for those approved under this Government. In measures will be important. The Government have the eight academies issued with pre-warning notices in also set tougher minimum standards for schools. We 2011, there was an average improvement of 16 percentage have raised the floor standards at primary to 65% points in the proportion of pupils achieving five good from 60%, and at secondary to 40% from 35%. GCSEs in 2012. For those issued with a pre-warning High-quality inspection is an important aspect of notice in 2012-13, the average improvement rate so far the school accountability system. Building on the changes has been 8 percentage points. that the coalition Government put in place in 2011 to We have also recently strengthened the guidance for focus inspection more strongly on teaching and learning, local authorities by putting in an expectation that they Sir Michael Wilshaw has set his own priorities, which act quickly and do not wait for Ofsted to go in before are helping to drive improvement. The inspection intervening. We expect warning notices to be issued in framework was amended in September 2012 and a instances where, for example, standards are below the higher benchmark has been set. When inspecting schools, floor, disadvantaged pupils are achieving low standards, Ofsted now holds them to account for the attainment or there is a sudden drop in performance. and progress of their disadvantaged pupils, and the gap between them and their peers. The abolition of the In giving schools greater autonomy, good governance “satisfactory” label was clearly an important move. becomes increasingly important, as the right reverend The number of Ofsted categories has also been Prelate mentioned. Our reforms are designed to encourage substantially reduced to avoid confusion, and as my that and we are focusing governors on three core noble friend Lady Perry said, in future Ofsted itself functions: the vision and ethos of the school, as the will take control of far more inspections. Moreover, right reverend Prelate again mentioned; holding the the regional operation to which my noble friend Lady head to account for the progression and attainment of Shephard referred is working extremely well. She also pupils and the performance management of his or her mentioned a number of cases, and I am reasonably staff; and money. Since 2012, the quality of school sure that I recognise one of them. I can assure her that governance has been central to the overall inspection the department is monitoring the situation closely, judgment on the overall leadership and management and I would encourage any teacher or parent who has of a school. concerns about any matter that they do not feel is We are committed to ensuring that children at being dealt with effectively at the local level to contact primary school have the best possible start in life and the Education Funding Agency. The noble Baroness, have increased primary accountability in a number of Lady Jones, referred to the Permanent Secretary’s ways: with the new curriculum; an increased emphasis report. I do not know whether it will be published, but on the importance of grammar, punctuation and spelling; I am sure that the Secretary of State will be very happy abolishing the requirement for schools to use national to answer any questions about it; of course, it is curriculum levels; reintroducing level 6 stretch papers looking into any warnings that the department may for key stage 2; and the introduction of phonics at have received in 2010 and previously. every stage of teaching. That helps help children to I turn now to the excellent points made by the right develop faster; evidence shows that children taught reverend Prelate the Bishop of Birmingham. Perhaps to read using phonics could be “two years ahead” by I may take this opportunity to thank him for all the age of seven. the work that is done by the Diocese of Birmingham GC 119 Education Institutions[24 JUNE 2014] Education Institutions GC 120

Educational Trust, and ask him if he would kindly I come back to the old story about non-qualified pass on the department’s thanks to Reverend Jackie teachers, which we had again earlier today in the Hughes for her excellent work over the years and its House. I think that noble Lords know our arguments best wishes for every success in her retirement. I also on this. We do not think it is right to deny people the pay tribute to the trust’s academies accountability opportunity of having the best teachers, and there is framework, a copy of which I have with me, which is no clear evidence at all that QTS is an effective arbiter particularly clear on matters like challenge and lines of in itself of the quality of teaching. accountability. I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords for this My noble friend Lady Sharp talked about the debate, and to my noble friend Lady Perry for her relationship between the local governing body and the comments and support. In conclusion, by creating a centre, which is very important. The academy chain system that is autonomous by giving schools the freedom may appoint the head, but it is important that the to innovate and upholds them to a higher level of local governing body is made aware of all the KPIs accountability, we are giving more children and young and targets so that it can advise the centre of its people a firm educational foundation on which they performance. Only today I had an interesting conversation can build the rest of their lives. with the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, about this in relationship to a playgroup, and I suggest that it would be very helpful to her if she talked to my noble friend about it. Committee adjourned at 6.07 pm.

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details of indicative planned allocations for FY14/15, Written Statements covering both the Conflict Pool and the Peacekeeping Budget. This Statement updates the House on adjustments Tuesday 24 June 2014 made to these planned allocations. We have now reviewed Conflict Pool allocations for Conflict Prevention: Funding FY14/15. This funding will continue to be spent within Statement the strategic direction set by the Building Stability Overseas Strategy (BSOS) and remains an important priority for the Government. It is central to our national The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities interests to enhance stability by supporting the and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth development of societies with strong and legitimate Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My right Honourable institutions which can manage tensions peacefully. Friend, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (William The size of the overall Settlement increases to £683m Hague), has made the following written Ministerial in FY 14/15, with the Peacekeeping Budget continuing statement: to have first call on available resources. Taking into Together with my Right Honourable Friends the account trends in peacekeeping demands and the recent Secretary of State for International Development, significant savings we secured at the UN, in particular the Member for Putney (Justine Greening), and the in the tri-annual negotiations on the scale of contributions, Secretary of State for Defence, the Member for £444m has been set aside for the Peacekeeping Budget, Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr Hammond), I wish comprising £70m of Official Development Assistance to update the House about our plans for funding (ODA) drawn from the Conflict Pool and £374m conflict prevention, stabilisation and peacekeeping non-ODA funding from the Treasury Reserve. We activities through the Conflict Resources Settlement have therefore been able to allocate £239m to the for the FY14/15. Our Written Ministerial Statement Conflict Pool. This represents an increase of £10m of 13 June 2013, Official Report Column 16WS, provided over last year’s allocation.

Table 1: SR10 Total Conflict Resources (£ million) Year FY11/12 FY12/13 FY13/14 FY14/15

Total allocation 630 644 664 683 Peacekeeping Agreed 374 374 374 374 claim on the Treasury Reserve Peacekeeping ODA Top 76 61 61 70 up from Pool Conflict Pool 180 209 229 239

The table below shows confirmed Conflict Pool to reflect changing priorities or to enable the Government allocations for individual programmes for FY14/15 to respond more effectively to new cases of conflict with allocations for FY13/14 by comparison. These allocations may change during the course of 2014/15 and instability. Table 2: Conflict Pool Allocations

Programme FY 13/14 Allocation (£m) FY14/15 Allocation (£m)

Afghanistan 45 26.8 Africa 51.5 53.7 Middle East and North Africa (MENA) 39 60* South Asia 20 20.5 Strengthening Alliances & Partnerships (SAP) 10 12 Wider Europe 36 35.2 Stabilisation Unit 10.8 10.8 Early Action Facility (EAF) 20 20* TOTAL 232.3** 239

* £5million has been pre-committed from the £20m EAF to the our commitments to Lebanon, the Occupied Palestinian MENA programme Territories, Yemen, Bahrain, Egypt, Tunisia and Iraq. ** Includes over commitment of available resources by £3.3m The MENA programme is now the largest in the Conflict Pool, reflecting the importance of improved stability in the region to UK national interests.

The Middle East and North Africa programme There will also be an increased allocation for the (MENA) will be increased substantially to provide Africa Programme. This reflects our continued additional resources for the crises in Syria and Libya commitment to security, stabilisation and the political as well as their regional consequences. We will continue process in Somalia, increased resources for additional WS 109 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 110 work in Nigeria and in the Sahel region, and continuing EU: Education, Youth, Culture commitments in North and South Sudan, Zimbabwe, and Sport Council East and Central Africa, and with the African Union. Statement Funding for Afghanistan remains significant but continues on a downward trend reflecting the planned Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): My Hon friend, the conclusion of Conflict Pool-funded stabilisation activities Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative in Helmand and other changes in the UK’s approach Industries (Ed Vaizey) has made the following statement: ahead of transition later this year. Of note, under the A meeting of the Education, Youth, Culture and Conflict, Stability and Security Fund (CSSF), which Sport Council was held in Brussels on 20-21st May. I will replace the Conflict Resources Settlement in FY15/16, represented the UK for the cultural and audiovisual we will provide £70m per annum to support development section of the Council and Shan Morgan, the UK’s of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF). Deputy Permanent Representative, represented the UK for the sport section of the Council. The South Asia programme will continue to focus Culture and audiovisual on Pakistan, including work with civil society and in the border areas with Afghanistan. The programme The Council was invited to adopt two Council will continue other regional commitments including Decisions relating to the European Capitals of Culture on relations between India and Pakistan and in action. Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka. The first Decision formally designated Leeuwarden in the Netherlands as European Capital of Culture for The Wider Europe programme will continue to 2018. Leeuwarden was selected by a European panel cover the costs of UK personnel in the UN Peacekeeping of experts following a competitive selection process, Mission in Cyprus (UNFICYP), our commitments to and will hold the title in 2018 alongside Valletta, EU peacekeeping and security sector reform missions Malta, which was formally designated by the Council in the Western Balkans, and civil society work in last year. Central Asia and the Caucasus. The second Decision established a procedure for the Council to appoint three experts to the European The thematic Strengthening Alliances and Partnerships selection and monitoring panel for the European Capitals Programme will receive an increased allocation to of Culture 2020-33, as established by Decision 445/ support UN work on peacekeeping and protection 2014/EU. According to that Decision, the Council will issues, for Defence leadership and for activity in support be entitled to appoint three experts to the panel every of the Ending Sexual Violence Initiative (ESVI). three years. The procedure adopted provides for three Member States whose cities are not subject to selection The Conflict Pool will continue to provide funding or monitoring during the relevant three year period to for the tri-departmental Stabilisation Unit, which plays be selected by ballot. Those Member States will then an active role in supporting Conflict Pool delivery. nominate one expert each, selected from a pool of suitable candidates maintained by the Commission, to £20m of Conflict Pool funding will again be provided be appointed by the Council. for an Early Action Facility (EAF) to respond to The UK supported the adoption of both of these unforeseen demands and new opportunities. In FY Council Decisions. 13/14 the EAF was used for work in Syria and Lebanon, Central African Republic and Ukraine. For FY14/15 The Council was also invited to adopt conclusions we are pre-committing £5m of funding to the MENA on cultural heritage as a strategic resource for a sustainable programme to help avoid the disruption of planned Europe. The proposed conclusions show that cultural programming in other regions. heritage is well-placed to deliver a wide range of benefits for society as a whole. These benefits are Financial Year 14/15 will be the final year of the associated not only with economic growth but also tri-departmental Conflict Pool in its current form. An with good-quality environment, social well-being, evaluation of the Conflict Pool’s impact during the intercultural dialogue, promotion of a sense of belonging course of this Spending Review period will be carried to a community, and ultimately, with the building of a out at the end of FY14/15 and will be communicated more cohesive Europe. The UK supported the adoption to the House. A new, £1 billion Conflict, Stability and of these conclusions. Security Fund (CSSF) will be established in Financial The Council held a policy debate on the future EU Year 15/16 and will build on the existing Conflict Pool Work Plan for Culture. The debate was based on a to help prevent conflict and tackle threats to UK discussion paper circulated by the Greek Presidency interests arising from instability overseas. The CSSF which invited Member States to identify their priorities will be governed by the National Security Council, for the next Work Plan. In the debate France called for with a more strategic cross-Government approach that an EU cultural strategy to guide the adaptation of EU will draw on the most effective combination of defence, policies to the digital environment, including in diplomacy, development assistance, security and competition, trade and taxation policies. This was intelligence capabilities. These are all at the heart of supported by several Member States who saw challenges the Prime Minister’s “golden thread” theory of for culture arising from digitisation and globalisation. development and can play a vital role in tacking the Germany proposed a new working group to monitor complex causes and impacts of conflict and instability, and evaluate the impact on culture of policies and as set out in the National Security Strategy. proposals in other areas, while Portugal and Spain WS 111 Written Statements[24 JUNE 2014] Written Statements WS 112 called for greater co-operation and co-ordination between as a way of matching bids from larger countries. Member States and at transnational level. Other key Several Member States noted that the economic, social issues raised by Member States included cultural diversity, and environmental aspects had to be factored into the cultural heritage, the role of culture in education, planning of major events from the outset in order to support for the creative industries, cultural statistics ensure a lasting legacy. The UK used the example of and access to culture. For the UK I argued for further the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games to work on new sources of funding for culture and on demonstrate the significant impact and transformative data collection and evaluation to establish the added effect which major sports events can have on local value of culture. Italy noted that it will take forward communities and on levels of participation in sport. work on the new Work Plan for Culture during its The Commission noted that all major events should forthcoming Presidency of the Council. be certified as “green”; and that through co-operation The Commission presented an update on the with the sports movement human rights abuses around state of play in the negotiations for the Transatlantic such events needed to be addressed. Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) between the Other Business European Union and the United States of America. The Commission presented its Communication on The Commission regretted that audiovisual services European film in the digital era; and the Presidency had been excluded from the negotiating mandate but informed the Council about the World Anti-Doping assured the Council that this exclusion had been respected Agency meeting which took place in Montreal on during the negotiations. In the exchange of views 17-18th May. which followed, a number of Member States, including Finally, Italy informed the Council of the work France, Germany and Belgium, underlined their support programme and priorities for its forthcoming Presidency for the exclusion of audiovisual services from the of the Council. For culture and audiovisual, this will mandate and pressed the Commission to ensure greater focus on the preparation of the next Work Plan for transparency in the negotiating process. I restated our culture, as well as on the role of cultural heritage and position that the UK would have preferred to include digitisation. For sport it will focus on the role of sport audiovisual services in the mandate; and I expressed in promoting economic growth. our support for the Commission in seeking to negotiate an agreement which will benefit the EU and its Member States, contributing to economic growth and job creation. NHS: Safety, Transparency and Openness Sport Statement The Council was invited to adopt conclusions on gender equality in sport. These conclusions recognise The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department the important role that sport can play in terms of of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My Rt hon Friend the promoting equal opportunities and social inclusion. Secretary State for Health (Jeremy Hunt) has made the The UK supported the adoption of these conclusions. following written ministerial statement. The Council also adopted a resolution on an EU Today I am announcing a package of measures to Work Plan for Sport. The Work Plan sets out a programme boost safety, transparency and openness in the NHS. of activity for the 2014-17 period and follows on from In March, I announced a new ambition to reduce the current Work Plan for 2011-14 which is drawing to avoidable harm in healthcare by half, thereby saving a close. The resolution identifies three priority areas 6,000 lives. A new campaign—“Sign Up to Safety”—will for action: integrity of sport, in particular anti-doping, be launched today to help achieve this ambition. The the fight against match-fixing, protection of minors, campaign will call for everyone working in the NHS to good governance and gender equality; the economic listen to patients, carers and staff, learn from what dimension of sport, in particular sustainable financing they say when things go wrong and take action to of sport, the legacy of major sport events, economic improve patient safety. Every healthcare organisation benefits of sport and innovation; and sport and society, will be formally invited to sign up to the campaign and in particular Health-Enhancing Physical Activity (HEPA), commit to delivering a safety plan that will contribute volunteering, employment in sport as well as education to the new ambition. The safety plans will be reviewed and training in sport. The UK supported the adoption by the NHS Litigation Authority and if the plans are of the resolution. robust and will reduce claims, Trusts will receive a The Council held a policy debate on the economic, financial incentive from the NHS Litigation Authority social and environmental sustainability of major sports to support implementation of their plans. This is just events. The debate was introduced by a joint presentation one way that we can tackle some of the financial costs by David Grevemberg, CEO, and Gordon Arthur,Director of poor care. of Communications, of the Glasgow Commonwealth In the Government’s response to Sir Robert Francis Games 2014, who provided an overview of the key QC’s Public Inquiry into Mid Staffordshire NHS challenges and opportunities presented by the Games. Foundation Trust, we pledged to create a hospital They highlighted the importance of ensuring that such safety website for the public. As of today, NHS Choices events are inclusive and create social, economic and will provide key hospital-level patient safety data in environmental benefits for local areas and communities. one place which means the public can see how hospitals In the debate several Member States highlighted compare in terms of safety across seven key indicators— the difficulty of competing with larger economies for including reporting culture, hospital infections and major sporting events and some proposed joint bids cleanliness, response to patient safety alerts and healthcare between European countries both to share costs and staff recommendations to their friends and families WS 113 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 114 about the organisation they work in. In our response, whistleblowers are mistreated there are appropriate the Government also said that hospitals needed to be remedies for staff and accountability for those mistreating more transparent about staffing levels, and for the first them. The review will consider the merits and practicalities time the new hospital safety website will tell the public of independent mediation and appeal mechanisms to whether a hospital has achieved its planned levels for resolve disputes on whistleblowing fairly. It will do this nursing hours. by listening to and learning the lessons from historic Finally, I am announcing an independent review cases where NHS whistleblowers say they have been into creating an open and honest reporting culture mistreated after raising their concerns and by seeking in the NHS chaired by Sir Robert Francis QC, who out best practice. chaired the landmark inquiry into the poor standards of care in Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust. The safety campaign that we are launching today, The review is being established to provide independent together with what is now an unprecedented and advice and recommendations on measures to ensure world-leading level of transparency and openness, will that NHS workers can raise concerns with confidence help to create the right conditions needed to harness that they will be acted upon, that they will not suffer the commitment of everyone in the NHS to deliver the detriment as a result and to ensure that where NHS best and safest possible care. WA 137 Written Answers[24 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 138

chemists into initial teacher training (ITT). We have Written Answers surpassed our target for trainees entering chemistry teacher training in each of the last three years, recruiting Tuesday 24 June 2014 121% of the target in 2011/12, 108% in 2012/13, and 127% in 2013/14. Brunei We are continuing to fund subject knowledge Question enhancement (SKE) courses, which are an important tool to ensure all chemistry trainees have specialist Asked by Baroness Tonge subject knowledge. Around a quarter of accepted places for chemistry ITT in 2014/15 are being supported To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions by SKE. they have had regarding the compatibility of Brunei’s The latest annual School Workforce Census (2013) human rights policies with the human rights values shows that 19.6% of chemistry teachers who teach of the Commonwealth Charter, and with whom. pupils from years 7 to 13 have no relevant post-A [HL194] Level qualification, down from 24.3% in the 2012 census, demonstrating the impact of these incentives. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities The Government also recognises the vital importance and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth of subject-specific development for in-service teachers. Office (Baroness Warsi): We, along with the EU and We have made almost £7 million available to fund a other members of the international community, regularly network of Regional Science Learning Centres and we discuss human rights with the Bruneian authorities. are funding teaching schools to develop and deliver a During Brunei’s Universal Periodic Review at the UN range of post-ITT SKE provision in specific subjects, Human Rights Council on 2 May, we called on Brunei including chemistry. to lift its state of emergency, to establish a national humanrightsinstitutionandtoensurethattheimplementation Claims Management Services of their new sharia criminal code was in line with Question international human rights standards. This includes the Commonwealth Charter which commits members Asked by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. I discussed To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they this with His Majesty The Sultan, and other government will bring forward delegated legislation under the figures during a visit to Brunei in April. The Minister Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 enabling of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my complaints against claims management firms to be Rt Hon Friend the Member for East Devon also raised heard by the Legal Services Ombudsman. [HL178] our concerns with Brunei’s Deputy Foreign Minister Pehin Kunis on 12 June. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) of State at the Ministry of Justice, my hon. Friend the (Con): The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara), provides the necessary enabling powers to put in place raised this with the Bruneian Attorney General at the the funding arrangements for the Legal Ombudsman Commonwealth Law Ministers meeting on 6 May. The to deal with complaints against claims management Secretary of State for Health, my Rt Hon Friend the companies. These provisions were commenced on Member for South West Surrey (Mr Hunt), discussed 21 March 2014. They include a power for the Lord this with his opposite number at a Commonwealth Chancellor to make Regulations to charge fees to recover Health Ministers’ meeting on 18 May 2014. the costs he has incurred in meeting the expenditure of the Legal Ombudsman in relation to claims management complaints. Chemistry: Teachers The Government consultation on the proposed Question structure of the Lord Chancellor’s cost recovery fee Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff ended on 6 June and the responses are being analysed. Once the fee structure is finalised, the Fee Regulations To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans will be laid in Parliament for approval. Following this, they have to increase the numbers of chemistry an order to commence section 161 of the Legal Services teachers with a subject-specialist background. Act 2007 will be laid. This will extend the remit of the [HL438] Legal Ombudsman to enable it to deal with complaints about authorised claims management companies. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools The government is committed to enabling this as (Lord Nash) (Con): The Government is committed to soon as possible. supporting schools in recruiting specialist teachers in chemistry. Specific support is provided for individuals Consumer Goods: Marketing interested in teaching chemistry through targeted marketing, Question personal advisors and securing school experience. We Asked by Lord Palmer have significantly increased tax-free bursaries for chemistry trainee teachers from £9,000 in 2012/13 to up to £20,000 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment in 2014/15. In addition, we continue to work jointly they have made of the Chantler Review’s suggestion with the Royal Society of Chemistry to offer scholarship that there is a spillover effect, whereby the branding awards of £25,000 in order to attract the most talented of consumer goods intended for adult consumption WA 139 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 140

may also appeal to young people; and what assessment with a broad range of industry stakeholders being they have made of the implications for consumer consulted including trade bodies; IP rights owners and goods other than tobacco that might be deemed to IP legal professionals. The Government will consider put children at risk. [HL241] what further action is needed once the final report has been published. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): Tobaccois treated uniquely Copyright: Internet in regulatory terms, because it is a uniquely harmful Question consumer good. All smoking is addictive and harmful Asked by Lord Birt to health. Around half of all regular smokers are eventually killed by a smoking-related illness, and on To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment average, smokers who die from a smoking-related illness they have made of the effect of the Digital Economy lose around 16 years of life. Smoking is the primary Act 2010 in reducing copyright theft via the internet. cause of preventable morbidity and premature death, [HL339] accounting for almost 80,000 deaths in England each year, some 18% of all deaths of adults aged 35 and Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): The online infringement over. of copyright provisions within the Digital Economy Act 2010 have not yet been implemented, and so no Regulatory controls on tobacco are commensurate such assessment has been carried out. The delay is due with the potential harm to the health of smokers and to a number of factors, including legal challenge and others that it can cause. Over the past decade in ensuring compliance with Government “Managing Public particular, tobacco has become increasingly regulated Money” principles. In the meantime the Government and controlled as further evidence about the harm to has encouraged the industry to investigate a voluntary health from smoking has emerged. Tobacco, therefore, copyright alert programme, which should produce is subject to greater levels of regulation than other similar results in a significantly shorter timescale. I am consumer products. grateful to the industry for the energy with which they have picked up this challenge. Nevertheless, unless an effective alternative is put in place, Government continues Copyright to be committed to implementation of the provisions Question with the Digital Economy Act. Asked by Lord Clement-Jones Employment Tribunals Service To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Question they are making on their consideration of (1) protection of metadata, (2) remedies against lookalikes, and Asked by Baroness Drake (3) equalisation of penalties for physical and digital To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans copyright infringement. [HL366] they have to lower the level of fees for access to employment tribunals. [HL302] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger (Con): The Justice Secretary is committed to reviewing of Leckie) (Con): 1) The issue of protection of metadata the impact of the introduction of fees in the employment was considered as part of the industry-led Copyright tribunal system. The Ministry of Justice is currently Hub project, to which the Government contributed finalising arrangements for the timing and scope of initialfunding.Thisinvolvedkeyplayersseekingcross-industry the review to ensure that the impacts can be properly agreement to help keep metadata with copyright works assessed. An announcement will be made when the and resulted in the publication of a voluntary Code of review begins, and again when it has been completed, Practice on Creating and Maintaining Metadata in setting out the results. Images. It is clearly important for industry to take up that code of practice, before Government could consider whether or not any further action may be appropriate. Energy Supply (2) The Government is considering the case for Question granting a civil right of action to business against Asked by The Lord Bishop of St Albans lookalike packaging, for which it launched a review of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations was made towards improving the security and (CPRs). The Review commenced this spring, and the affordability of off-grid fuel supply at the third initial call for evidence closed on 19 May.The Government ministerial roundtable meeting on heating oil and is keen to continue engaging with stakeholders on this liquid petroleum gas supply on 21 May. [HL357] issue; a structured roundtable has been scheduled for 14 July. The final report is expected to be published in The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department October. of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): (3) The Intellectual Property Office has commissioned My rt. hon. Friend the Minister of State for Energy Inngot Ltd to carry out a review of the use of copyright chaired the third Ministerial Roundtable meeting on infringement sanctions. The review has commenced heating oil and LPG supply on 21 May. My rt. hon and is expected to report in November. Data gathering Friend the Minister of State for Climate Change joined for copyright infringement sentencing is already underway, the roundtable discussion on off gas grid fuel poor WA 141 Written Answers[24 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 142 households and support for off gas grid consumers. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) This continued the useful discussions government has (Con): Racially and religiously aggravated offences had at the previous two Roundtables with representatives have no place in our society. Parliament has provided from industry, consumer groups, oil buying groups the courts with the necessary powers to deal effectively and others on how to improve heating oil and LPG with those who are convicted of these serious offences. supply to UK consumers. The court must make a football banning order where Issues covered at the third roundtable included the an offender has been convicted of a relevant offence promotion of the Federation of Petroleum Suppliers’ and it is satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to Customer Charter, the messaging to consumers on believe that making a banning order would help prevent buying oil early ahead of the winter and an update on violence or disorder at, or in connection with, any the action government is taking more broadly to help regulated football matches. If the court is not so fuel poor off-grid households. Full details of the meeting satisfied, it must state that fact and give reasons in can be found in the minutes of the meeting which has open court. The prosecution has a right of appeal been placed in the Library of the House. against a failure by the court to make a banning order. Relevant offences for these purposes include chanting European Union of an indecent or racialist nature at a designated Question football match, and specified offences under the Public Order Act 1986 committed during a period relevant to Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon a football match, which covers the period beginning To ask Her Majesty’s Government what rules two hours before the match and ending one hour after currently govern the disclosure of European Union the match, at any premises while the offender was at, information; and whether any past or present rule, or entering or leaving or trying to enter or leave, the or any proposed rule, bans disclosure of information premises. disadvantageous to the European Union. [HL163] We are not aware of any evidence to suggest that the magistracy are reluctant to make football banning The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) orders, and decisions of the magistrates are made with (Con): Access to documents held by the European the assistance of legal advisers who refer to current Union (EU) is governed by Regulation 1049/2001 sentencing guidelines. regarding public access to European Parliament, Council and Commission documents (the Regulation), which provides a public right of access to documents held by Government Departments: Procurement these three institutions. The Regulation has also been Question extended to further EU institutions through other instruments. Information relating to the EU may also Asked by Lord Morrow be requested from UK public authorities under domestic To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many information rights legislation, including the Freedom companies currently providing contracted services of Information Act 2000. to government departments and agencies use zero Neither the Regulation nor domestic legislation hours contracts. [HL301] contain provisions which prohibit the disclosure of information simply because its release would be Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The information disadvantageous to the EU, and there are no plans to requested is not held centrally. introduce such a measure. However, both the Regulation and domestic legislation provide a range of exemptions, often subject to a public interest test, which permit High Speed 2 Railway Line bodies subject to them to withhold genuinely sensitive Question information from disclosure where release would undermine legitimate interests specified in that legislation. Asked by Lord Storey These include, for example, exemptions which may be relied upon to protect international relations, commercial To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they interests or the decision-making processes for making have made any cost-benefit analysis of the reduction EU legislation. of carbon monoxide emissions as a result of the planned HS2 high-speed rail link. [HL385] Football Banning Orders Question The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The Government has not Asked by Lord Ouseley made any cost-benefit analysis of the impact of HS2 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment on carbon monoxide emissions. they have made of the adequacy and effectiveness The HS2 Economic Case quantifies the impact of of sentencing in cases where football fans have been HS2 on non-traded direct Greenhouse Gas emissions found guilty of racially or religiously aggravated (which include carbon dioxide, methane and nitrous public order offences; and whether they will consider oxide) resulting from changes in petrol/diesel use from providing advice to the magistracy in response to road and rail passenger transport as a result of HS2. any evidence revealing that magistrates are reluctant This analysis estimates that the full HS2 Y-Network to issue football banning orders in such cases. generates benefits of £101 million (2011 prices, NPV) [HL37] from reduced non-traded Greenhouse Gas emissions. WA 143 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 144

HIV Infection Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light Asked by Lord Lexden of their stated intention of building more houses, To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was what is their assessment of the ability of the United their total spending in 2013–14 on treatments for Kingdom building supplies industry to provide bricks, timber and other materials; and what measures HIV infection in the United Kingdom. [HL260] they are taking to encourage growth in the building The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department supplies industry to provide sufficient materials of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): Data for 2013-14 is not to ensure the success of the house building programme. available at present. Primary care trusts’ aggregate [HL254] spend for 2012–13 (latest figures available) on HIV/AIDS was £630 million. Viscount Younger of Leckie: The Government has noted advice from the Construction Products Association Housing Benefit that there is no general lack of capacity in UK products Question manufacturers. The Association advises that only 19 per Asked by Baroness King of Bow cent of companies producing heavy building materials To ask Her Majesty’s Government which local are currently operating at near capacity. As the products authorities received additional Discretionary Housing sector adjusts to the return to growth it expects that Payment funding from the extra £20 million announced capacity will increase further in response to demand. in October 2013; and how much was made available in each case. [HL332] Illegal Immigrants The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): The information that has been requested was published on 24 March Asked by Lord Vinson 2014 on GOV.UK and can be accessed through the following link: To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/ cost to public funds, in each of the last five years, of uploads/attachment_data/file/295291/s3-2014.pdf compensation payments to illegal immigrants who had been unlawfully detained beyond the statutory period; and what was the legal aid cost of the Housing: Construction lawyers undertaking those compensation claims. Questions [HL289] Asked by Lord Jones of Cheltenham To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) of their stated intention of building more houses, (Con): 1 April 2008 we have reported on compensation what is their assessment of the availability of skilled cases and disclosed information on individual cases personnel to carry out the building work necessary; where the costs exceeded £250,000. We do not report and what measures they are taking to train sufficient the individual details on cases below this threshold, or numbers to ensure the success of the house building prior to this date. programme. [HL253] Information relating to compensation, ex-gratia and The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department adverse legal costs payments is available and can be for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger found within the Losses and Special Payments disclosure of Leckie) (Con): There has been no specific assessment in the UKBA Annual Report and Accounts. These are of the availability of skilled personnel for the home available on the Home Office Website via the attached building sector. The Construction Industry Training link. Board’s (CITB) latest Construction Skills Network www.gov.uk/government/publications? Report forecasts an annual recruitment requirement departments%5B%5D=uk-border-agency for the construction sector, including home building, Legal Aid Agency data does not distinguish between of 36,400 a year for the 2013-2018 period. false imprisonment claims made by illegal immigrants Under the auspices of the Construction Leadership and those made by other individuals. Council, the house building industry is developing an action plan to address two immediate priorities: improving the image of house building and attracting back experienced workers who left during the recession, Legal Aid Scheme and other workers with relevant skills. More widely, Question the Government is making a number of reforms to the Asked by Lord Beecham skills system to improve skills supply, putting employers in the driving seat and making providers more responsive To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment to their needs. they have made of the changes in the eligibility of The Government is also currently undertaking a legal aid on the number of litigants in person and triennial review of the way the CITB operates and the consequential impact on the administration of challenging it on the service it delivers to the sector. justice. [HL79] WA 145 Written Answers[24 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 146

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) and wingers for each of the jurisdictions of Adult (Con): We are closely monitoring the impact of the Court, YouthCourt and Family Court in England and legal aid changes. The number of family cases showing Wales. self representing parties are published in Courts Statistics The training programme supports the learning and Quarterly (www.gov.uk/government/collections/court- development of magistrates to a consistent standard statistics-quarterly). We are working towards publishing across England & Wales to enable them to perform data on self representation in civil cases more widely their duties effectively. Magistrates will go through an and will include this in future publications. induction process and thereafter attend continuation Litigants in person are not a new phenomenon in training. The Judicial College supports the training our courts. Judges are used to helping persons with no process by providing Bench Books for the Adult, legal representation, including explaining procedures Youthand Family proceedings. Where a need is identified, and what is expected of them. We have taken steps to the Judicial College will also provide training materials help people who either want or have to represent to the magistracy for the implementation of major themselves in court, including publishing a revised legislation and other changes. guide for separating parents and increased training for Magistrates are advised in court by their legal advisers judges. The link to the guide is: who, as professional lawyers, will keep themselves http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/ up-to-date with legal developments. GetLeaflet.do?court_leaflets_id=2756 Medals Question Local Government: ICT Questions Asked by Lord Ashcroft To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether any Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark civilian honours other than the George Cross can To ask Her Majesty’s Government what changes be awarded posthumously. [HL327] local authorities are required to make to their information technology services in order to remain Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): I refer the noble connected to the gov.uk secure network. [HL349] Lord to the answer I gave on 16 June 2014, (Official Report) Column Ref WA126. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what advice has been issued to local authorities to make the required changes to their information technology Mental Health Services: Hearing services to remain connected to the gov.uk secure Impairment network. [HL350] Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath has been made by each local authority in the United To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action Kingdom in making changes to their information they are taking with regard to those Clinical technology services to remain part of the gov.uk Commissioning Groups that have not funded secure network. [HL351] Improving Access to Psychological Therapies services for deaf people. [HL330] Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The Public Services Network (PSN) is a new and trusted single network The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for government. Ninety-eight per cent of local authorities of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The Improving Access to have already transitioned to PSN, with the remainder Psychological Therapies programme is now the responsibility due to transfer before the end of summer. of individual clinical commissioning groups (CCGs); The Cabinet Office is supporting local authorities however over £400 million is being invested over the as they transition to PSN by providing guidance, spending review period to make a choice of psychological project managers and information assurance specialists. therapies available for those who need them in all parts of England. Section 20 of the Equality Act 2010 requires service Magistrates: Training providers and CCGs to make ‘reasonable adjustments’ Question so that disabled people are not placed at a ‘substantial disadvantage’ compared to non-disabled people, which Asked by Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth would include in the provision of psychological therapies to deaf people. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what training they provide for magistrates. [HL201] Minimum Wage Question The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno (Con): Responsibility for the training of magistrates rests with the Lord Chief Justice and this is exercised To ask Her Majesty’s Government under what through the Judicial College. The National Training circumstances employers are legally allowed to pay Programme for Magistrates provides the framework of workers less than the national minimum wage. training and appraisal for magistrates who sit as chairs [HL231] WA 147 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 148

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department to NDA are Berkeley, Bradwell, Calder Hall, Chapelcross, for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger Dungeness A, Hinkley Point A, Hunterston A, Oldbury, of Leckie) (Con): There are no circumstances where if Sizewell A, Trawsfynydd and Wylfa. a worker is entitled to the National Minimum Wage All are being decommissioned with the exception of that an employer can pay less than the National Minimum Wylfa which continues to generate. Wage. However, under the legislation certain types of The costs of each station since their respective workers are not entitled to the minimum wage. These generation end dates, and during the period in which are: they have been in NDA ownership (since 1 April 2005) self-employed people running their own business have been: company directors Berkeley £400 million volunteers or voluntary workers Bradwell £590 million workers on a government employment programme, Calder Hall £265 million eg the Work Programme Chapelcross £490 million family members of the employer living in the Dungeness A £285 million employer’s home Hinkley Point A £370 million non-family members living in the employer’s home Hunterston A £345 million who share in the work and leisure activities, are treated as one of the family and aren’t charged for Oldbury £72 million meals or accommodation (eg au pairs) Sizewell A £280 million workers younger than school leaving age Trawsfynydd £540 million (usually 16) The estimated cost of completion (the remaining higher and further education students on a work lifetime cost) for all of the sites named is £16.5 billion. placement up to 1 year EDF / British Energy stations are: Hunterston B, workers on government pre-apprenticeships schemes Hinkley Point B, Hartlepool, Heysham 1, Dungeness people on the following European Union programmes: B, Heysham 2, Torness, Sizewell B. Leonardo da Vinci, Youthin Action, Erasmus, Comenius people working on a Jobcentre Plus Work trial for 6 weeks Obesity members of the armed forces Question share fishermen Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick prisoners To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much people living and working in a religious community has been spent in each of the last five years to adapt Additionally, people carrying out work experience National Health Service hospitals for obese people. and internships will not get the minimum wage if they [HL370] are: a student doing work experience as part of a higher The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department or further education course of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): This information is not of compulsory school age collected centrally. Decisions on spending are a matter a volunteer or doing voluntary work for local National Health Service organisations. on a government or European programme work shadowing Employers and workers with queries about the Patient Choice Schemes application of the National Minimum Wage can access Question free and confidential advice through the Pay and Asked by The Countess of Mar Work Rights Helpline on 0800 917 2368. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether patients have the legal right to be referred to any hospital provider of their choice, no matter where the consultant Nuclear Power Stations is located in England, subject to the provisos listed Question on the NHS website under Choosing your Hospital; Asked by Lord Rowlands whether patients diagnosed with chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalopathy in Sussex and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what nuclear elsewhere have been denied the opportunity to do power stations there are in the United Kingdom; so by local clinical commissioning groups when which of those are being decommissioned; what their general practitioners request a referral; and, if has been the cost to date of each station; and what so, why. [HL360] is the estimated cost of completion of the decommissioning process. [HL297] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The 2014-15 Choice The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Framework and the NHS Constitution, both available of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma) (Con): on .gov.uk, set out when patients have legal rights to The current and former nuclear power stations designated choice. WA 149 Written Answers[24 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 150

The NHS Constitution states that patients have the The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace right to make choices about the services commissioned of Tankerness) (LD): The Attorney General has no by National Health Service bodies and to information formal role in the issue of Royal Pardons and therefore to support these choices. there are no records of Royal Pardons held by the The 2014-15 NHS Choice Framework establishes Attorney General’s Office. that if a patient needs to see a consultant or specialist as an outpatient for a physical or mental health condition, they can choose the organisation that provides their Railways: Franchises NHS care and treatment anywhere in England for Question their first outpatient appointment. They can also choose Asked by Lord Bradshaw which consultant-led team or which mental health team led by a named health care professional will be in To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether newly charge of their NHS care and treatment for their first negotiated rail franchises and franchise extensions outpatient appointment. include incentives for the train operator concerned The organisation can be any clinically appropriate to devote sufficient resources to revenue protection. health service provider with whom any clinical [HL207] commissioning group or NHS England has a commissioning contract for the service required as a result of the referral, but the team must be clinically The Minister of State, Department for Transport appropriate and led by a named consultant or health (Baroness Kramer) (LD): Most franchise operators are professional who is employed or engaged by that on risk for revenue and are therefore incentivised to health service provider. protect that revenue. However, we are conscious that where operators are in receipt of revenue support, in There are also times that patients are not able to some cases it may be appropriate to strengthen the make a choice, and these are outlined in the Choice incentive, particularly later in the franchise term. The Framework and the Handbook to the NHS Constitution. exact nature of the incentive or mechanism will vary For example, patients can only choose a hospital or by franchise. clinic that offers the right treatment and care for their condition. Furthermore, if patients need urgent or emergency treatment, they cannot choose who they Rolling Stock see. Question If a patient, who is not covered by the exemptions, has not been offered choice, or denied the opportunity Asked by Lord Bradshaw to exercise choice by a clinical commissioning group, the 2014-15 Choice Framework sets out a clear complaints To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether plans procedure. to cascade rolling stock between rail franchises are made by officials in the Department for Transport; and whether proposed cascades have been examined by operating and engineering people to ensure that Personal Injury: Compensation costs associated with the cascade are kept to a Question minimum. [HL206] Asked by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts The Minister of State, Department for Transport To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to (Baroness Kramer) (LD): In line with the Government’s the Written Answer by Lord Faulks on 5 February policy set out in the March 2012 Command Paper, (WA 238), whether they are now in a position to which is for a market-led approach to rolling stock, implement a revision to the personal injury discount the Government does not believe that the cascade of rate. [HL266] units between franchises should be planned by officials within the Department for Transport. When proposals arise, such as the transfer of the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) nine Class 170 trains from TransPennine, officials will (Con): The Government’s review of the personal injury work with industry to help find a solution, but the discount rate is still continuing and the position remains Department has made it clear that it expects train as stated in my Written Answer to my Noble Friend of operators and rolling stock companies ultimately to 25 February 2014 (WA238). resolve such situations.

Prerogative of Mercy Science: Primary Education Question Questions Asked by Lord Empey Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Office of the Attorney General has any records of primary schools in England have (1) a science subject royal pardons granted between 1987 and 1997. leader, and (2) a science subject leader who has a [HL285] science degree. [HL437] WA 151 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 152

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): It is possible (Lord Nash) (Con): The information requested is not for borrowers with Income Contingent Repayment collected centrally. (ICR) loans nearing the end of their repayment term Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff to over-repay their loans because there is a time lag between the deductions from borrowers pay (by To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans employers), HMRC’s annual process for student loan they have to increase the numbers of primary school repayment accounting and the student loans Company teachers with (1) a science degree, or (2) a science (SLC) subsequently receiving payment information A-level, as their highest science qualification. from HMRC. As a consequence it is possible for [HL439] people to over repay before the SLC becomes aware that their repayments should stop. Lord Nash: The Government would like to see Because of this, SLC notifies borrowers in the final many more science graduates and candidates with a 23 months of repayment that they may opt out of the science A Level becoming teachers—both primary PAYE system and complete their loan repayments by and secondary—to raise the quality of science teaching. Direct Debit (DD). This would ensure they do not However, the responsibility for making recruitment over repay their loan. If borrowers choose not take up decisions rightly rests with schools, including what DD repayment it is likely that they will over repay. specialist qualifications and experience they expect Borrowers are advised to monitor their own repayments. individual teachers to have. Through the new School If they can demonstrate to SLC that they have paid Direct training route, we have given schools more enough by providing evidence, such as payslips, SLC control over the selection and training of the teachers can then ask HMRC to issue a “stop” notice to they need for the future. employers and refund any over repayments at the earliest opportunity. Students: Loans The SLC provides guidance and tools to help borrowers Questions calculate their loan balance and when they are likely Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford to repay their loan in full. The SLC refunds all over repayments to borrowers’ bank accounts. To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Student Loans Company does not provide up-to-date online information about the state of an account, detailing Tobacco: Packaging all repayments made into the account via the PAYE Questions system since the last statement was issued. [HL292] Asked by Lord Palmer To ask Her Majesty’s Government from which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department companies and organisations, other than those involved for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger in the tobacco industry, they have received of Leckie) (Con): HMRC collates employer information representations since October 2013 regarding their on student loan deductions at the end of each tax year plans to consider introducing standardised tobacco and provides this information in P14 “end of year packaging. [HL239] summaries” to the SLC. The SLC calculate interest and statements are issued to borrowers, advising them The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of their deductions, interest and outstanding balance of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The information cannot at the end of the tax year. This process is repeated be provided without incurring disproportionate cost. annually until all student loan repayments are collected. Asked by Lord Palmer The repayment information held by the SLC will, as a result of this system, be accurate to the April of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment the previous tax year. The SLC is not in a position to they have made of the impact of introducing provide an accurate settlement of a borrower’s balance standardised tobacco packaging on the United more recently than the previous April. However, the Kingdom’s ability to trade globally. [HL240] borrower can track and monitor their own settlement balance online if they retain a note of all their repayment Earl Howe: The Government continues to carefully deductions made over the tax year. consider all issues relevant to the introduction of HMRC, BIS and SLC are currently discussing standardised packaging of tobacco products, including arrangements to share student loan repayment information aspects related to trade. more quickly, but there is no mechanism to do so in The Government will shortly publish a final, short the current tax system and necessary changes will take consultation that will contribute to final decision-making some time to implement. on whether standardised packaging will be introduced. Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford The Government encourages anyone with an interest to respond to the consultation, which may include To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Student evidence on the impact of standardised packaging on Loans Company and HM Revenue and Customs trade. joint accounting system is able to continue deducting Asked by Lord Palmer repayments on loans via the PAYE system even when repayment has been completed; and why in To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the such circumstances it is necessary for the individual Written Answer by Earl Howe on 6 May (WA 447), customer to alert them to the situation and to whether they will now place in the Library of the reclaim overpayment. [HL293] House correspondence received by the Department WA 153 Written Answers[24 JUNE 2014] Written Answers WA 154

of Health regarding the proposed introduction of The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities standardisedtobaccopackagingfromallothergovernment and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth departments and agencies including police forces. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): This Government is [HL242] clear that membership of a reformed EU is in the UK’s interest. The EU must reform to become more competitive, Earl Howe: The Government’s position has not flexible and democratically accountable, and work fairly changed since the answer that has been referred to was for those in and outside the Eurozone. provided. Asked by Lord Palmer To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Verne Prison the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 6 May (WA444), Questions whether they will place in the Library of the House correspondence between the Intellectual Property Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Office and the Department of Health regarding the proposed introduction of standardised tobacco To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to make legal aid-funded immigration packaging. [HL256] representation available to migrants detained in Earl Howe: The Department has no current plans HMP The Verne. [HL233] to publish information on the development and formulation of Government policy on standardised packaging of tobacco products. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con): Currently, advice on immigration matters within Asked by Lord Palmer the scope of Legal Aid can be given to detainees in To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to HMP The Verne by any provider that holds an the statement by Earl Howe on 3 April (HL Deb, Immigration & Asylum contract with the Legal Aid col 1121–2), whether in preparing for the publication Agency (LAA). of the draft regulations on standardised packaging Earlier this year the LAA conducted an expression for tobacco products they are considering the scope of interest exercise among existing contract holders of the types of tobacco products to be included, providing immigration surgeries at other Immigration such as drawing a distinction between cigars and Removal Centres, with four providers confirmed as pipe tobaccos and mainstream tobacco products. interested in operating surgeries in HMP The Verne. [HL257] Communications will be issued shortly regarding when Earl Howe: The Government continues to carefully these services are likely to commence. consider all issues relevant to the introduction of Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno standardised packaging of tobacco products, including the scope of the types of tobacco products covered by To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether it is the policy. their intention for on-site legal surgeries be held in HMP The Verne. [HL234] UK Membership of EU Question Lord Faulks: Earlier this year the Legal Aid Agency Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon conducted an expression of interest exercise among To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in existing contract holders providing immigration surgeries the event of Jean-Claude Juncker being appointed at other Immigration Removal Centres, with four providers President of the European Commission, they plan to confirmed as interested in operating surgeries in HMP review their policy concerning continuing membership The Verne. Communications will be issued shortly of the European Union. [HL456] regarding when these services are likely to commence.

Tuesday 24 June 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Conflict Prevention: Funding ...... 107 NHS: Safety, Transparency and Openness ...... 112 EU: Education, Youth, Culture and Sport Council ...... 110

Tuesday 24 June 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Brunei...... 137 Local Government: ICT ...... 145

Chemistry: Teachers...... 137 Magistrates: Training...... 145

Claims Management Services ...... 138 Medals...... 146

Consumer Goods: Marketing ...... 138 Mental Health Services: Hearing Impairment...... 146

Copyright ...... 139 Minimum Wage ...... 146

Copyright: Internet...... 140 Nuclear Power Stations...... 147

Employment Tribunals Service ...... 140 Obesity...... 148

Energy Supply...... 140 Patient Choice Schemes ...... 148

European Union ...... 141 Personal Injury: Compensation ...... 149

Football Banning Orders ...... 141 Prerogative of Mercy ...... 149

Government Departments: Procurement ...... 142 Railways: Franchises...... 150

High Speed 2 Railway Line...... 142 Rolling Stock ...... 150

HIV Infection ...... 143 Science: Primary Education ...... 150

Housing Benefit...... 143 Students: Loans ...... 151

Housing: Construction ...... 143 Tobacco: Packaging ...... 152

Illegal Immigrants...... 144 UK Membership of EU...... 153

Legal Aid Scheme ...... 144 Verne Prison ...... 154 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL37] ...... 141 [HL207] ...... 150

[HL79] ...... 144 [HL231] ...... 146

[HL163] ...... 141 [HL233] ...... 154

[HL178] ...... 138 [HL234] ...... 154

[HL194] ...... 137 [HL239] ...... 152

[HL201] ...... 145 [HL240] ...... 152

[HL206] ...... 150 [HL241] ...... 139 Col. No. Col. No. [HL242] ...... 153 [HL330] ...... 146

[HL253] ...... 143 [HL332] ...... 143

[HL254] ...... 144 [HL339] ...... 140

[HL256] ...... 153 [HL349] ...... 145

[HL257] ...... 153 [HL350] ...... 145

[HL260] ...... 143 [HL351] ...... 145

[HL266] ...... 149 [HL357] ...... 140

[HL285] ...... 149 [HL360] ...... 148

[HL289] ...... 144 [HL366] ...... 139

[HL292] ...... 151 [HL370] ...... 148

[HL293] ...... 151 [HL385] ...... 142

[HL297] ...... 147 [HL437] ...... 150

[HL301] ...... 142 [HL438] ...... 137

[HL302] ...... 140 [HL439] ...... 151

[HL327] ...... 146 [HL456] ...... 153 Volume 754 Tuesday No. 12 24 June 2014

CONTENTS

Tuesday 24 June 2014 Questions Schools: Teachers...... 1117 Food Poisoning ...... 1119 Housing: Underoccupancy Charge ...... 1121 Personal Independence Payment...... 1124 European Union (Information, etc.) Bill [HL] First Reading ...... 1126 Council Tax Valuation Bands Bill [HL] First Reading ...... 1126 Deregulation Bill First Reading ...... 1126 Health: Patient Safety Statement ...... 1126 Student Visas Statement...... 1130 Scotland: Independence Motion to Take Note...... 1139 Scotland: Independence (Constitution Committee Report) Motion to Take Note ...... 1234 Grand Committee Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies and Credit Unions Act 2010 (Consequential Amendments) Regulations 2014 Motion to Consider...... GC 79 Legislative Reform (Clinical Commissioning Groups) Order 2014 Motion to Consider ...... GC 84 Defibrillators Question for Short Debate...... GC 89 Education Institutions: Autonomy and Accountability Question for Short Debate ...... GC 104 Written Statements...... WS 107 Written Answers...... WA 137