Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

WEDNESDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER 1966

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Commonwealth Savings, &c., Bill [21 SEPTEMBER] Questions 631

WEDNESDAY, 21 SEPTEMBER, 1966

Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m. PRIVILEGE

MR. SPEAKER'S RULING Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. members, I refer to the matter raised on 20 September on a question of privilege by the hon. member for Windsor relative to section 37A (1) of the Vagrants, Gaming, and Other Offences Acts, 1931 to 1964. It is my opinion, as a layman, that the matter is really a question of law rather than prjvilege, and it is not the function of the Chair to adjudicate on a matter of Jaw. QUESTIONS

TRAFFIC BREACHES BY DRIVERS OF MOTOR TRUCKS (a) Mr. Davies for Mr. Duggan, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Mines,- For the financial years 1964-65 and 1965-66, for Queensland registered motor trucks,- ( 1) What was the total number of over­ loading breaches in terms of (a) excess axle loads and (b) excess total loads? (2) How many of the trucks concerned were driven by (a) owner drivers, and (b) employee drivers? ( 3) What number of these vehicles were (a) owned by Local Authorities, and (b) engaged on contracts for Local Authorities? ( 4) How many special permits were issued for indivisible loads or some type of heavy haulage?

Answers:- ( 1) "The information is not available in this form. However, for the two years the following a,pplied- NuMBER OF BREACHES 1964-65 1965-66 Trucks registered in Queens- land ...... 4,820 4,770 Trucks registered Inter-State 2,882 2,458 Total breaches . . 7,702 7,228

TYPE OF BREACHES Excess axle loads 5,439 5,182 Excess total loads 2,240 2,039 Other .. 23 7 Total 7,702 7,228"

(2) "This information is not readily available." (3) "(a) 1964-65, 27; 1965-66, 62. (b) Not known." ( 4) "730 permits issued in 1964-65 and 1,007 in 1965-66. The number of these referring to vehicles registered in Queensland is not readily available." 632 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

(b) Mr. Davies for Mr. Duggan, pursuant ANZAC COTTAGES to notice, asked The Minister for Education,- Mr. Davies for Mr. Houston, pursuant to For the financial years 1964-65 and notice, asked The Minister for Justice,- 1965-66, how many traffic breaches were ( 1) How many Anzac cottages are reported or breach notices issued against there now in Queensland for which the drivers of motor trucks in terms of­ Public Curator is responsible and how many were there originally? (a) exceeding speed limit, (b) driving with insecure loading, (c) overloading, (2) In what towns are they now (d) driving with no red. flag on .l.oading. located? (e) failing to comply With conditiOns. of (3) Who is responsible for their main­ permit for wide loading, and (f) veh1cle tenance and cost of repair? loading obscuring driver's vision? ( 4) Are the cottages all in good repair and condition? Answer:- "The information sought is not avail­ able and could only be obtained by a very Answers:- detailed and extensive investigation con­ ( 1) "There are now twenty-five Anzac ducted for the specific purpose. It is not cottages in existence for which the Public proposed to divert staff from other Curator is responsible. There were important duties to conduct such research." originally fifty-one." ( 2) "The cottages are located as follows: Brisbane, nineteen; Goodna, two; Rockhampton, Gympie, Dalby and Kilcoy, NEW INDUSTRIES IN NORTH QUEENSLAND one each." Mr. Alkens, pursuant to notice, asked The ( 3) "In most cases the Public Curator Minister for Industrial Development,- as trustee is responsible; in other cases ( 1) Was he correctly reported in the the tenants are responsible." press of July 3 as saying, inter alia, that ( 4) "No. Due to the age of the cot­ this Government had launched twenty-five tages and lack of funds in past years new industries in Queensland? because of the small rentals charges, most of the cottages are not in good repair and (2) If so. how many of theEe industries condition. It is now considered not an wer ~ launched in North Queensland and. economical proposition to spend a large if any, what are they and where in North amount on any cottage by way of repair Queensland were they established? or restoration."

A nsJ:•ers:- ( 1) "As far as I can ascertain I was SAFETY OF SCHOOL BUSES not reported in the Press at all on July 3. Mr. Davies for Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to ln The Courier-Mail of July 5 I announced notice, asked The Minister for Education,- the Department of Industrial Develop­ ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to a ment had completed preliminary studies statement in The Sunday Mail of Sep­ of 25 industries which appeared to offer tember 18 in which it was claimed that good opportunities for establishment in old, unserviceable and sub-standard th;s State. These, I said, were being vehicles were being used as school buses brought to the notice of industrialists who in Queensland? could perhaps be interested in such ( 2) What action is his Department projects. I also added the procedure for taking to ensure that Queensland school making Crown land available f0r industry children are conveyed to and from school had been streamlined and was now in safe vehicles which provide a reason­ prim~irily the responsibility of the Depart­ able standard of comfort? ment of Industrial Development. I further (3) How many accidents involving stated that, in accordance with its school buses were reported to his Depart­ election promise, steps were now being ment in the years 1964, 1965, and 1966 to taken by the Government to set aside date? parcels of Crown land in the main pro­ vincial centres of the State to meet the Answers:­ future needs of industry. If this is the statement to which the Honourable (1) "Yes." Member refers, I have no doubt he will (2) 'The Conveyance Committee readily concede that his Question is based formed by parents of pupils using a entirely on wrong premise." school transport service select' a con­ tractor with a suitable vehicle. The (2) "See Answer to (1)." Department of Machinery and Scaffolding Questions [21 SEPTEMBER} Questions 633

and also the Police Department are ( 4) Has this type of toy been banned in furnished with schedules detailing a,pproved New South Wales? school bus services and these Departments arrange for periodical checks of all Answer:- vehicles." ( 1 to 4) "I have seen the adver­ (3) "No record can be found of any tisement. However, there is no legislation report to my Department respecting the coming within my purview which deals involvement in an accident of any bus with such matters. It would appear, from performing an approved school service enquiries made from New South Wales, during 1964, 1965 and 1966." that action in that State apparently could only be taken if the toy were injurious to a child's health, or if it were explosive and could endanger the life of a child. It SALE OF GOODS ACT is further understood that the New South Mr. §herrington, pursuant to notice, asked Wales Police Department, in certain cir­ The Minister for Justice,- cumstances, also can take action in regard ( 1) Has representation been made to to articles considered objectionable or him by the Retail Traders Association con­ dangerous. Therefore, as the matter, in cerning the desirability of introducing a one way or another, would a,ppear to con­ "No Limit" section in "The Sale of Goods cern each of them, I am forwarding a copy Act of 1896"? of the advertisement to my colleagues, the Minister for Education, the Minister for (2) What reasons have they advanced Justice, and the Minister for Health." as to why they consider this action desirable?

( 3) Is a similar type of law operating ADDRESS BY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE TO in South Australia? STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES ( 4) Has any finality been reached con­ Mr. Rennett, pursuant to notice, asked cerning their submission? The Minister for Justice,- (1) Was he correctly reported in the Answers:- Telegraph of September 19 and in The Courier-Mail of September 20, 1966, when (l) "Yes." it was claimed in effect that he endea­ (2) "The reasons have already been voured to influence a meeting of magistrates published in the Press." and gave them directions in relation to their judicial activities? (3) "Yes." (2) Does he regard the magistracy or (4) "No finality has been reached. courts of other jurisdiction as sub-depart­ am not yet in a position to make an ments of the Department of Justice? announcement on this subject." Answer:- ( 1 and 2) "The magistrates in the dis­ ADVERTISING AND SALE OF DANGEROUS charge of their judicial duties are ToY completely separate from and independent Mr. Bennett, pursuant to notice, asked of the Executive. The magistrates in this The Minister for Labour and Tourism,- respect are in no different position from ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to any judge. I officially opened the Magis­ Waltons latest publication advertising their trates Conference and asked the Christmas toy catalogue? magistrates for their earnest deliberation on some of the problems which are vexing the (2) In particular, did he see the adver­ State, particularly the toll of the road and tisement on the fifth page depicting a the prevalence of cattle stealing. No Secret Sam Set and Attache Case and directions were given by me to the exhorting young boys to "track a spy" and magistrates. The matters to which I "check the scene with the attachable referred are matters of great public periscope" and advising that the secret interest. They call for the consideration pistol demonstrated, fires play bullets and thought of every responsible member through a hole in the case? of the community. In asking the magis­ ( 3) If so, can he prevent such type of trates to take these matters into advertising and also the sale of this type consideration in their deliberations, I feel of toy, which could be dangerous and set that I was only expressing the earnest young boys' minds and imaginations along concern of all thoughtful members of the criminal lines? community." 634 Questions [ASSEMBLY] Questions

FINANCING OF COAL MINING INDUSTRY (2) "The nature of the work or trade LONG SERVICE LEAVE TRUST FUND undertaken by prisoners and the approxi­ mate numbers engaged in each category Mr. Donald, pursuant to notice, asked The are as follows:- Minister for Mines,- Nature of Work or Trade Numbers Employed Is the Coal Mining Industry Long Servi.::e Tailor Shop-Manufacture of Prison Leave Trust Fund financed by an excise and Institutional Clothing, &c. . . 40 Uniform Shop-Manufacture of Uniforms on coal? If so, from whom and how is for Prisons' Officers 16 this excise collected? Carpenters Shop and Spray Painting­ Manufacture of furniture, joinery and repairs and maintenance thereto, signwriting ...... 30 Answer:- Boot Shop-Making of Boots and Shoes for Prisons and other Government "Yes. This excise is levied and col­ Institutions . . . 38 lected by the Commonwealth Customs and Tin Shop-Making of Tinware for Government Institutions 23 Excise Department on all coal production Saddlery-Saddle, Harness ~~d all except for export market." Leather Work ...... 19 Metal Shops-Manufacture of Metal Furniture and Pre-fabricated Steel Work ...... 17 Building Construction-New Buildings within the Prison Area . . 90 POSITIONING OF MOTOR VEHICLE Plumbers, Drainers and Labourers- REGISTRATION LABELS Installations in New Buildings . . 40 Painters-General Maintenance Work . . 15 Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked Bake-Houses-Manufacture of Bread for Prisons and other Government Institu- The Minister for Mines,- tions ...... 40 Dairying and General Farm Work, Because of the high proportion of wind­ including Stock Raising, General screen breakages on Queensland roads and Agricultural Development and Affores- tation ...... !80 as the placement of vehicle registration Cooks-Cooking and General Culinary labels on side ventilation windows is per­ Work ...... 50 mitted in New South Wales, Victoria and Laundry-Institutional Laundering 50 South Australia, will he introduce a similar Total 648 system in this State? If not, why not? The reaction to the scheme is good and the majority of prisoners, particularly the Answer:- younger ones, regard it as a good means "Alternative methods to windscreen of rehabilitation. Generally they prefer labels are being examined as means of being taught a trade or being able to tPUt indicating current registration. A decision their hands to something useful rather is expected shortly." than remaining idle through lack of suitable employment." (3) "Prisoners serving twelve months and over are seen by the Prison Classifi­ REMUNERATION OF GAOL PRISONERS cation Committee and classified as a means DOING TRADE WORK to their rehabilitation. In all other cases, prisoners who have had previous Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked experience in trade work are allocated to The Minister for Health,- their particular trade if possible as soon ( 1) Since the introduction of the as can be ar,ranged and those who have amending Act relating to prisoners doing the aptitude to learn can do so under the trade and other work in Wacol and other supervision and guidance of the Trade gaols, how much money has been credited Instructor in whatever calling the prisoner to these people? is placed. The scheme, which is in its infancy, is beneficial to the prisoners and (2) What sort of work, trade or other­ is proceeding satisfactorily." wise, are the pris?ners performing, how many ~re en~aged m this undertaking and what IS their general reaction to the CHECKING OF ELECTORAL ROLLS BY scheme? CIVILIANS Mr. Bromley, pursuant to notice, asked ( 3) What is the system adopted and is it The Minister for Justice,- proceeding satisfactorily or not? In view of the fact that hundreds of people claimed a vote at the last State Answers:- Election, stating that they had enrolled even though their names did not appear ( 1) "Since the introduction of the on the electoral rolls, will he arrange to Remuneration System to Prisoners on have civilians appointed to carry out future May 24, 1965, until the end of August State electoral roll checks so that police 1966.' an amount of $27,760.96 has bee~ can be relieved of the duty, thus enabling cred1te? to prisoners doing trade and other them to perform work more usually asso­ work m Queensland prisons." ciated with the Police Force? Questions [21 SEPTEMBER] Questions 635

Answa:- RAIL PASSES TO RETIRED RAILWAYMEN "The existing practice, which was also Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked The the practice of previous Governments, is Minister for Transport,- to have periodically a house-to-house ( 1) Is a limitation placed on the avail­ electoral canvass by police officers con­ ability of passes issued to retired railway­ ducted simultaneously throughout all men who have over thirty years service? electoral districts in this State. This practice has proved very effective and it (2) If so, does this permit less favour­ is considered that a canvass by a civilian able conditions to operate in comparison corps, for various reasons, would be less with the availablity of passes allowed to effective. These police electoral canvasses other pensioners annually? are conducted at lengthy intervals only. Moreover, such a canvass provides an Answers:- opportunity for police officers and the ( 1) "A retired railwayman with over inhabitants of an area to become known thirty years' continuous service in the one to the other. It has been found that Department is entitled to a first class at every election, Commonwealth, State, station to station pass for a period of one or Local Authority, there is always a month, once in each calendar year." certain percentage of electors who have omitted to fulfil their legal obligations (2) "The Railway Department does not regarding enrolment for both Common­ issue passes to ,pensioners. The Labour wealth and State rolls. A change to civilian and Tourism Department issues requisitions roll canvassers would not alter this for second class travel by pensioners under position." certain conditions."

DIMBULAH-NORMANTON ROAD LAND FOR HIGH SCHOOL, STRATFORD Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked Mr. Diplock for Mr. Adair, pursuant to The Minister for Mines,- notice, asked The Minister for Education,- Jn view of the urgent need for improve­ Has the Education Department secured ment of the Dimbulah-Normanton Road. an area of land at Stratford for high school will he consider the clearing of the surveyed purposes? If so, when will the work of road so that all future expenditure on it school building commence? can be used on the permanent alignment? Answer:- Answer:- "The present high schools will meet the ''The road is not surveyed. It is being secondary education needs in Cairns for surveyed and improved as funds can be some years. However, action has been made available." initiated for the resumption of a State high school site at Stratford. This land is being acquired against probable future AO'c!INISTRATION OF MITCHELL RIVER requirements of the area and no indication AND EDWARD RIVER MISSIONS can be given as to when a school building might be provided thereon." Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,- Has the Government decided to assume TOILET FACILITIES FOR PSYCHIATRIC WARD, full responsibility for the material adminis­ TOWNSVILLE GENERAL HoSPITAL tration of Mitchell River and Edward River Mr. Tucker, pursuant to notice, asked The Missions? If so, on what date will the Minister for Health,- change-over take place? (1) What is the number of (a) female Answer:- and (b) male patients presently occupying psychiatric ward 15 at the Townsville " As I indicated to the Honourable General Hospital? Member on September 6, negotiations are in progress for transfer of the material (2) How many toilet facilities, i.e., administration of Mitchell River, Edward showers, plunge baths, hand basins and River and Lockhart River communities. w.c's are there to serve (a) female and Such transfer has been approved in (b) male patients? principle but no firm date has been determined as yet for the changeover. As Answers:- the Honourable Member no doubt will ( 1) "Female patients, 14; male patients. appreciate, there are many matters to be 9." resolved and whilst it is not yet possible to indicate a definite date of transfer, it (2) "Toilet facilities for female is reasonable to expect that any change patients: Showers, nil; plunge baths, 1; will not become effective until after the hand basins, 1; w.c's, 1. Toilet facilities imminent wet season which should for male patients: Showers, nil; plunge terminate approximately May, 1967." baths, l; hand basins, 1; w .c's, 1. There 636 Questions [ASSEMBLYJ Commonwealth Savings, &c., Bill

are also one bath with shower over it for (2) If so, will the Government brief use of staff only, one hand basin for counsel to appear for the Police Commis­ medical staff, one hand basin for nursing sioner so that the whole matter may be staff and one w.c. for staff use only." fully and publicly ventilated? Answers:-

ASSISTANCE TO DISCHARGED PRISONERS ( 1) "I have read the article in question." TO RETURN TO HOME STATES (2) "A decision as to whether in this Mr. Tucker, pursuant to notice, asked The inquest there should be any departure from the usual practice for an officer of the Minister for Health,- police to appear to assist the coroner has ( 1) Further to his Answer to my not been made." Question on September 15, 1_9?6, is he aware that, prior to comm1ttmg their PAPERS offences, many of the young men from interstate presently in custody at H.M. The following papers were laid on the table, Prison, Stuart, came north hoping to find and ordered to be printed:- work in Townsville and were unsuccessful Reports- in their quest? Nominal Defendant (Queensland) for the (2) As the same conditions will apply year 1965-66. on their discharge, will he consider granting Agricultural Bank for the year 1965-66. assistance to those who genuinely desire to return to their home States? Net Surplus Profits, State Government Insurance Office (Queensland) for the year 1965-66. Answers:- Chief Inspector of Factories and Shops (1) "I am informed that the only way for the year 1965-66. this information could become available to the Prisons Department is in respect of COMMONWEALTH SAVINGS BANK OF persons serving a sentence of more than AUSTRALIA AGREEMENT BILL twelve months when interviewed by the Classification Committee of the prison or SECOND READING-RESUMPTION OF DEBATE by some other indirect means, such as a Debate resumed from 20 September (see prisoner being interviewed by the p. 631) on Mr. Chalk's motion- Prisoners' Aid Society prior to discharge. "That the Bill be now read a second Normally prisoners' records do not con­ time." tain information of this nature." Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (11.30 a.m.): (2) "The North Queensland Prisoners' Now that the House has decided-by a Aid Society, which receives an annual "narrow" margin-to proceed with the Bill subsidy from the Government, is only too forthwith, I do not propose to recapitulate willing to assist any prisoner on discharge, points already covered. Yesterday I endeav­ providing his case is genuine, in regard oured to keep strictly to the amendment, so to-(a) employment; (b) clothing; (c) there are a couple of other matters which I accommodation. Under the Prison Regu­ think should be mentioned at this stage. lations a prisoner on discharge may receive second class rail fare to the place I think it is quite plain to the House that of his arrest within the State. Should his we are doing something different from what case be genuine and he approaches the is contained in the earlier agreement. What­ Prisoners' Aid Society, they will endeavour ever it is that clause 10 (b) of the schedule to assist him back to his home, whether does mean, it is quite certain that it is dif­ this be interstate or otherwise. Often it is ferent from and additional to the earlier found preferable for the person to be agreement. I do not p.ropose to examine the given employment for a week or two financial arguments used to justify this locally-if available-so that he can earn monopoly clause, although I consider some wages to cover expenses to see him back of them to ,be quite vulnerable. My objection, to his home State." as stated before, is solely on the principle that in order to secure an agreement on terms quite different from those applying origin­ ally, we have had to forgo the basic right COUNSEL FOR POLICE COMMISSIONER AT of competition and give a monopoly. CoRONER's INQUEST I regret that there seems to be creeping Mr. Aikens, pursuant to notice, asked The into this Chamber a tendency to, in a term Minister for Justice,- popular among our young people today, "rub­ ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to an bish" a person .and not deal with the argu­ article in Sunday Truth of September 18, ment. The hon. member for Albert skirted wherein it was stated that the Honourable around this, but listening to him I thought Member for South Brisbane would appear he might have his tongue in his cheek by as counsel at the inquest into the death using such fulsome compliments and. indulg­ of a man named Lamont? ing not in praise but in savage satire. Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 637

regret very much that the hon. member of the Government's endorsing a monopoly for Aspley took the line that because one because it appears to profit by that person differs frofi1 another on a basic po.int monopoly? If we do, then as I see it where do of principle, necessarily he must be attackmg we halt the procedure? Suppose, for the character and probity of the other person. instance, that a chain store came along and In my view that is a pretty shoddy way _of said to the Government, "Let us have every entering a debate. All of us should be qmte school tuck-shop and you will get 50 per clear on this matter of argument and dispute. cent. of the profits." Would such a propo­ Let me make it clear that because I see here sition be considered? This may seem an a point of principle which I cannot abandon extravagant analogy, but, in terms of at any price, I do not for a moment suggest principle, is it? that I am nobler, wiser, or more intelligent A monopoly of children"s banking is than my colleagues. My colleagues might abhorrent at any price. I know the argu­ well be right in this; I, and others, might ments advanced that this is different-they wel! be wrong. The essential point is that were used extensively yesterday-that the I believe I am J"ight. Surely if I believe I Commonwealth Bank is the peop.le's bank. am right I can take no other course in terms These arguments cut no ice with me. We of the political philosophy to which I sub­ hear about the people's bank, the people's scribe. And surely here in this Chamber is trams and the people's railways, but the sole where a stand should be made for the beliefs test of all these propositions is what best and aims to which any hon. member feels benefits the community. I will stand on that himself deeply and personally committed. I premise. The belief that there is an inbuilt would not expect anyone to disagree with superior efficiency, or an inherent moral that. rightness in public ownership, is a piece of At this point I wish to draw attention to Socialist nonsense that every experience of an impression that might have been created the 20th century has exploded. by the Treasurer when he was replying at the I expect that hon. members opposite will conclusion of the introductory stage. What support this measure; I expect it, but I do he said carried an implication which I am not understand their views. They are com­ sure he did not intend, and which he will mitted to the philosophy of Socialism, which want to correct. He said that this Bill had exalts public ownership and is implacably received the support of the majority of mem­ hostile to private ownership. bers in the Government joint party room. Of course, this is quite true, but the impres­ Mr. R. Jones: And monopolies. sion that emerged was that some speaking Mr. PORTER: I see it quite the other against it were doing so after participating way. I oppose all monopolies, but hon. mem­ in that debate and after the vote was taken; bers opposite do not. The only monopoly in other words, that we were welshing on an opposed by hon. members opposite is the agreement because it did not go our way. private one. It will not pass without notice That of course, is not true. I know that in the larger world outside this Chamber that the Tr~asurer will readily agree with that. the only division on this measure was not I for one-and there were others-made it called by hon. members opposite. quite plain that to me this was a matter of I do not enjoy saying that I cannot-and deep principle, and irrespective of the will not-go along with my Government on decision I would not be able to go along a measure. There is no pleasure and no satis­ with it. That was said long before the vote faction in that. Were my sole concern this was taken. I made my position quite clear issue of a free-enterprise Government feel­ from the very earliest stage. I would not ing itself obliged to endorse a monopoly, believe that any member of my party would then that would go too far for me. But want to prevent another member from adopt­ the other point I am taking is, will we ing this attitude. To act otherwise would teach this principle-for-price practice to our make a mockery of the procedures and children? beliefs to which we are committed. Indeed, I ask myself what manner of generation it would put our methods on a par with we expect to produce when we deliberately those of the A.L.P., which in my view have condition them to a monopoly; and, more­ contributed very heavily to putting them over, a .monopoly obtained from a Gove.rn­ in the sorry position they occupy at present. ment with a mandate for free enterpnse, I have said again and again that I make because it was acquired for a price. no advocacy for the private banks, although I do not think any of us can pretend to be I believe -that a good case could be made for dismayed if we produce a community of them on the basis of their contribution to cynics and spivs who laugh to scorn the old, the deve·lopment of Queensland compared solid virtues that adults tried to teach them with that of the Commonwealth Bank. I and ask, "Why didn't you practice what repeat, for the tenth tim.e, th.at th~t i~ not you preach?" I am sure that none of us the prime. issue. The pnme 1ssue IS s1n:ply could be surprised, for I think we are all this: should people like myself who beheve sufficiently experienced to know that we in the preservation of a competitive fr~e­ will surely reap what we sow. enterprise economy as the most effective means of using our resources to advantage, An Honourable Member: You could not and as a dynamic force for progress, approve teach the Young Liberals. 638 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill

Mr. PORTER: The Young Liberals have Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (11.43 probably taught me a few things. I am a.m.): I listened with great interest to the always in need of some teaching. well-delivered speech of the hon. member for Toowong, who is, of course, new to this Much has been made in this debate of the Chamber. As he occupied a very prominent advantage' that this agreement will confer position in the Liberal Party for many years, on the State-these, of course, are those of us who are really interested in obvious-and much too little has been said politics and the workings of this Parliament of the advantages that the agreement has were eager to know just what stand he would already conferred on the Commonwealth take on various matters concerning this State. Bank and which this new agreement will I always considered him to be a man who confer on it in the future. To me, this is would not stoop to hypocrisy. I hope that an important aspect. today we have not heard from him some­ I repeat that when the whole picture IS thing that could only be described as slobber­ considered in relation to the financial life­ ing and sickening hypocrisy. On one or two blood pumped into this State's economy by previous occasions he has told this House that the private banks as compared with the he is opposed to all forms of monopoly Commonwealth Bank, this House may well whereas the Labour Party is opposed only to find that in the long term, under this agree­ private monopoly. If he is opposed to all ment, it is throwing away the substance for forms of monopoly, and if he is honest and a very thin shadow. With my coileagues, I consistent in the expression of that opinion, I very much regret that I am opposed to the look forward to the assistance I hope to get Government. I find that this clause of the from the hon. member for Toowong in agreement is bad principle and, in my view, breaking down some of the most v.icious in the long term will turn out to be bad monopolies established by his Government in business. this State, without doubt with the concurrence of the hon. member in the position he Finally, let me say that we in this Chamber previously held in the Liberal Party. I will should not let recent events loom too largely mention only two: Malanda milk-- in our minds. The fact that a few Govern­ ment members have differed from their Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I inform the hon. party will not create any international inci­ member for Townsville South, and other hon. dent. l should say this is a very minor storm members, that I do not propose to allow this in a very small tea-cup. debate to develop into either a personal or a Obviously the Opposit·ion would like to party-political slanging match. If any hon. make capital out of this. There is a queer member does not confine his remarks in this attitude in this House that if a person can second-reading debate to the principles of che embarrass the Government here, he has some­ Bill, I shall have to ask him to discontinue how scored off it in the electorate. I can only his speech. say that we are remarkably fortunate that Mr. AIKENS: A very sound ruling indeed, the general level of political sagacity outside Mr. Speaker. is somewhat higher than it seems to be inside this Chamber. I think that hon. members Mr. SPEAKER: I ask the hon. member to opposite should recognise that gleefully con­ take note of it. tributing to this so-called embarrassment will do them no good at all in the electorate. Mr. AIKENS: Perhaps, as I have been allowed to name that monopoly, I can look I regarded as quite remarkable the forward to the support of the hon. member endeavour to make some capital out of the for Toowong in wiping the monopoly out of Treasurer's having discussed this matter with existence. the State council of the Liberal Party. It was It is true that after the passage of this Bi!J not extraordinary, because the Treasurer is children attending State schools who desire not only Treasurer and Deputy Premier but to bank at school may do so only with the also the State Parliamentary Liberal Leader, Commonwealth Savings Bank. However, I and what he did was completely in accord should like to point out to the House with his responsibilities both to his office and something that apparently the hon. member in his role as party leader. To make capital for Toowong does not know. No child at a out of this is only using a boomerang that State school in Queensland is, acting of his will hit back at the Opposition. or her own volition or under the instructions Now that the motion to establish a select of his or her parents, under any obligation committee has been lost-and I must confess whatever to bank with the Commonwealth that I entertained some doubts when it was Savings Bank at school if he or she does not moved whether it would be carried-I for want to. Children can go across the road at one make it plain that I do not propose to lunch-time or any other time and do their join in dividing this House at any further savings-bank business with a private savings stage. It could be painful, and obviously bank. That is an issue that has, I think, been would be pointless. However, my deep deliberately clouded by the rebels on the objection to this schools monopoly, which I back bench of the Liberal Party. consider in a large sense is unnecessary and To make an analogy with the matter to in every sense unacceptable, will continue to which I previously referred, no child be voiced. attending a State school in TownsviHe-or, Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 639 for that matter, no citizen of Townsville­ Liberal Party. However, I would not have who does not want to buy Malanda milk can voted for the amendment for the same go across the road and buy milk supplied by reason as they had in voting for it. any other company. If that is not a vicious and reprehensible monopoly, I have yet to be I have no hesitation in stating where I told what "monopoly" means. I suppose it is stand on any matter, because my constituents very fortunate for those of us who support -indeed, all the people of Queensland­ the principles of the Bill that Mr. Reg. Ansett trust me. Although they may not always has not obtained a controlling interest in one agree with me and may not think that I am of the private trading banks of Australia. If always right, at least they will pay me the he had, it would be only a short time before compliment of saying that I am always the Commonwealth Government-- honest. Mr. Mann: They will be calling you Mr. SPEAKER: Order! "Tumbling Tom" after this. Mr. AIKENS: I am dealing with the principles of the Bill, Mr. Speaker. The Mr. AIKENS: As a matter of fact, that Commonwealth Government, which is of the was an epithet-not a very opprobrious one, same political kidney as the hon. member for either-used against me by the· Liberal Toowong and the back-bench rebels of the candidate in the 1944 election, as the hon. Liberal Party, would emasculate the Com­ member for Burdekin will recall. The monwealth Bank in the interests of the bank Liberal candidate called me "Tumbling Tom" owned and controlled by Reg Ansett. because in those days I used to go on benders, and the tumbling, of course, referred I am not going to occupy the time of the to the fact that I used to tumble over, House for very long. I sincerely and fervently having too much grog inside me. I will not hope that this Bill means what I think it make any specific reference to that point in means, and what the hon. member for relation to the hon. membe-r who made the Toowong and his friends on the back bench interjection. Fancy such an interjection also think it means. If it does not, and if coming from a member of a party that there is any challenge to the Bill by the bites its fingernails in eager anticipation, private banks, I am afraid that our opinions waiting to go over and vote with the Tories on will be set aside by the appellate court. I every occasion it can! do hope, however, that the Bill means what I think it means, and that it will confer on Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have already the Commonwealth Bank the right to a warned hon. members about turning this monopoly of savings-bank business at State debate in~o a personal and party-political schools. I repeat that the Commonwealth slanging match. It will not warn the hon. Bank will obtain the business of only those member again. children who want to bank with it; they can bank with any other private savings bank if Mr. AIKENS: I thought you would give they really want to. me the right to reply to a fairly personal In the division of the House yesterday the interjection. Being, as I am, thin~skinned Australian Labour Party, as was to be and of a sensitive nature, I was somewhat expected, crossed the floor and voted with the wounded by it. Tories. I was not in the House at the time. Having said that, ·I propose to conclude my Mr. Davies interjected. speech by saying again that I intend to accept the Bill as it is. I am going to vote for it Mr. AIKENS: In reply to the hon. as it is, both at the second-reading stage and member for Maryborough, I may say that my at the Committee stage, in the hope that it political and personal life is an open book. means what I think it means. Again because I am always prepared to tell my electors I do not want anybody to be under a where I am at any hour of the day on any misapprehension on the matter, I tell the day of the week. That is something that I world, through the pages of "Hansard" and do not think the hon. member for Mary­ the Press, that if I had been in the House borough is prepared to do. My speech on yesterday-! repeat that it was a matter of the amendment moved by the hon. member deep regret to me that I was not-I would for Clayfield yesterday was arranged for me have voted with the six who voted for the by the Government Whip because I told him amendment moved by the hon. member for that I had to leave the House early in the Clayfield. afternoon to attend a function that I had arranged to attend weeks ago. It was a Mr. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha) (11.52 a.m.): matter of deep regret to me that I could not In beginning my speech let me quote from remain in the House and cast my vote for an editorial that appeared in "The Courier­ the amendment. I would have transformed Mail" of ~hursday, 15 September, under the the "Subversive Six" into the "Steadfast heading "Hard banking question". It said- Seven." If anybody wants to know how I "The Treasurer (Mr. Chalk) and State would have voted yesterday but for circum­ Cabinet had to make a difficult decision on stances beyond my control, I want to place whethe-r or not to continue the Common­ on record in "Hansard" that I would have wealth Savings Bank's monopoly in savings voted with the "Subversive Six" of the banking at State Sch

'"On the one hand their political philos­ the Governor in Council by Order in Council. ophy can only have led them to oppose What an anti-claimax! What a gaping hole the extension of this monopoly. On !'he appears to have been left to create a other hand, they believed the State stood variation, which, under normal circumstances to benefit more from an agreement with and practice, would escape the scrutiny of the Commonwealth Bank. They cannot this Parliament. be blamed for putting the immediate State interest before personal political beliefs. I believe it is fair to say that, if the State Government is in partnership with the Com­ "This does not mean, however, that the monwealth Savings Bank, it is in open com­ agreement is a sound one. It is not clear petition with all other free-enterprise savings that Queensland, in the long run, will do banks and can and must use its legislative better. It is a sound principle that all and administrative powers and influences to banks should share in school banking exclude such banks from certain State busineM. Also, the provision that the instrumentalities, particularly, at this stage at agreement extends for 20 years is bad." any rate, the State schools. We must recog­ One might say that this, broadly, is the nise and acknowledge that this is fact. issue before the House at the moment, except that, from my point of view, where the I do not propose to canvass the issues newspaper refers to "political philosophy", again; however, I do wish to correct, or I choose, personally, to term certain aspects endeavour to correct, certain matters that of this so-called philosophy a Liberal principle have been stated or referred to in this place. -I stress the words "I, personally". Firstly, I should like to comment on a state­ ment that was made, I believe, by the Having debated the main principle that Treasurer in connection with what happened is offensive to me-that being the exclusive in our joint party room. I believe the right to school banking for the Common­ Treasurer gave the impression that the very wealth Savings Bank in Queensland-and people who participated in opposition to the having participated in the debate on what issues exercised their democratic vote in the I considered to be certain vital aspects, I now joint party room and then saw fit to oppose accept the decision of the House that the the amendment in this House. Bill, in the broad sense, is to proceed as printed. However, I do wish to speak briefly Mr. Chalk: Tell us what happened in the on certain matters that I believe are pertinent joint party room. to the Bill, and also on certain matters raised in the House in the debate up to this stage. Mr. LICKISS: Let me just put the record straight here. It would appear, from the Treasurer's state­ ment and from a reading of the agreement Mr. SPEAKER: Order! It would appear incorporated in the Bill as a schedule to it, that quite a deal of tedious repetition is that, as a Government, we are to provide entering this debate. I would ask hon. mem­ exclusive rights to the Commonwealth Savings bers to try to introduce some new subject Bank to school banking at State schools in and to try to keep the debate in line with a this State. I would suggest that, in terms of second-reading debate. the clause, which the Treasurer claims enables this to be implemented, we cannot set any Mr. LICKISS: With due respect, this was broad limitation on the Commonwealth a statement made by the Treasurer, which I Savings Bank's activity in so-called partner­ believe I ihave the right to answer. ship with the State in this banking field, or on Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I was saying that what demands can or are likely to be made tedious repetition is creeping in. The hon. by the Commonwealth Savings Bank in terms member for Toowong has already dealt with of the agreement. This might allay the con­ the subject now being covered by the hon. cern of the hon. member for Townsville member for Mt. Coot-tha. South. For argument's sake, can the clause be construed to extend to an exclusive right Mr. LICKISS: I accept that; and I trust on the Aboriginal reserves, in Public Service that the Treasurer will, in due course, see his preference, or, in fact, in any activity where way clear to set the record straight, particu­ State moneys are lent or granted or where larly as far as I am concerned. control is exerted? With other hon. members I feel sure that some definite statement is Mr. Aikens: The hon. member for required on these matters at a later stage of Toowong did not say it very clearly. this debate. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. member The particular measure dealing with the for Mt. Coot-tha does not require any five-yearly review is also rather vague in its prompting. interpretation and proposw operation, and, whilst hon. members have spent a great deal Mr. LICKISS: I w.ish to advise this House of time and effort in debate on the relevant that I, for one, do not get satisfaction out of issues, the major alterations and variations to having to oppose a measure against my own the agreement will be decided in the future Government. It is much easier to move with by two people: firstly, the general manager the tide than against it. I think it is fair to of the Commonwealth Savings Bank, and, say that nothing underhand was done by any secondly, the Treasurer. The result of those of the hon. members who have opposed this deliberations will be subject to approval by issue. I have no hesitation in saying that Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 641 should c~rcumstances unfortunately present Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have warned themselves in the same form in the future I hon. members previously about engaging in would do exactly the same thing again. personalities. I warn the hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha in the same vein in case he I believe that the Treasurer implied that did not hear my previous warning, and I those who opposed the measure appeared to ask the hon. member for Condamine to please reflect on the integrity of himself and certain refrain from interjecting. officers. The hon. member for Aspley came in along similar lines and made certain com­ Mr. LICKISS: Surely, Mr. Speaker, if I ments that I propose to deal with later in the am strongly provoked I should have an debate. Again I categorically deny that in opportunity to reply. any way have I reflected on the integrity of the Treasurer or any of his officers-or, for Mr. Aikens: You will not sell your soul. that matter, anyone--during this debate up to this point of time. The words Mr. SPEAKER: Order! used by the Treasurer in pointing out what those in opposition to the Bill have Mr. LICKISS: I repeat, what I consider done reminded me of a particular clause in to be principles may not be principles in the Bill which sets out to do a specific thing the eyes of other hon. members, and I and, like a machine gun, sprays the whole respect their right to determine what they field. I would again ask the Treasurer to put believe to be their principles and to make the record straight in this regard. One could political judgments. not fail to notice what appeared in the Pre~s Mr. Melloy: If you are elected to support this morning. a party, why don't you do it? If you want I was interested when the hon. member to be an Independent, why not be an for Albert joined in the debate on the amend­ Independent? ment. I suppose one's first reaction would be Mr. LICKISS: In reply to the hon. mem­ to retaliate in similar terms. However, I feel ber, I say what I feel I should say on that his contribution was so puerile and matters before this House. I have reserved amateurish that I should treat it with the that right, and I will continue to do so. contempt that it so richly deserves. I propose to read what the hon. member Mr. Carey: I will not take a point of order. for Aspley said about me. do not think it is worth while. An Opposition Member: You propose to Mr. LICKISS: I could not care less say it again. whether the hon. member takes a point of order or not. Mr. LICKISS: I propose to read it this morning, and I believe that I am entitled I was not surprised to see my colleague the to make my own decision in this matter. hon. member for Aspley enter the debate at that juncture. By some queer twist of his The hon. member for Aspley said- rather clouded mind he feels that because I "It could be inferred from that remark said that my principles were not for sale, I by my colleague from Mt. Coot-tha that, automatically implied that other hon. mem­ although his principles are not for sale, he bers' principles were for sale. What rubbish! believes that the Leader of the Liberal When I speak in this House I speak for Party, the Treasurer, has sold out his myself in accordance with my own con­ principles in arriving at the conclusion science, and I respect the right of every other of these negotiations, that the Premier hon. member to do likewise. It is true that and members of Cabinet, who agreed to what I consider to be a vital principle may the proposals, have set aside their prin­ not appear to be a principle in the eyes of ciples, and that other members of the other hon. members. As the hon. member for coalition Government have also disregarded Toowong said, I could be wrong and every­ their principles to support this measure. one else could be right. I do not object if I say that this agreement should be con­ that is the feeling of the House, but when I sidered not as a matter of principle but stand up here I feel that it is my duty to say as a matter of judgment." what I believe, and not what I am told I I cannot, and I do not, deny the hon. should believe. I make up my own mind. If member the right to make that statement, the day ever comes in my parliamentary but when he said that this is a matter ·career when I cannot make up my own mind of political judgment, I take exception to and am told to do something, I would prefer the fact that the hon. member has taken to leave the Parliament than to spend my unto himself the right to interpret what time in this place. I have said and so put it incorrectly in this Mr. Sullivan interjected. form. Mr. Ramsden: He can interpret only what Mr. LICKISS: If the hon. member for you say. Condamine wishes to enter the debate in his role of assassin as he did in a previous debate Mr. UCKISS: That is fair enough. But on land matters in this place, then let him J do not think the hon. member should add do it and take the consequences. to what I said what he believes I meant. I 642 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill

merely express my own views here, and my condemn thos·e who would introduce pers.onal own principles. He would do well to confine petty controversies in a matter of such himself to a similar role. major importance to this State. Le~ me return to the matter of the party In the Committee stage I shall be inter­ meetmg. I make the statement without ested in certain paragraphs of the agree­ any equiyocation or hesitation, th~t as far ment and I trust that an opportunity will as the Liberal Party in this House is con­ be afforded for an examination of these cerned-and again this is my opinion-we matters. have never, to my knowledge, been served by a better party leader than our present Mr. HUGHES (Kurilpa) (12.12 p.m.): We leader. I do not think I have the reputation have argued out, necessarily and as far as of being a crawler. It can never be said possible, I be·lieve, all aspects surrounding of me that I say other than what is in my this Bill. In the final bringing in of the mind, and I am doing that now. Let the washing the Treasurer made one or two people who wish to bring in these other points which I consider it is nece:>c>ary to matters for party-political purposes look after clear up. He took umbrage at certain themselves. I have the utmost respect for the r·emarks made by my colleagues and me. Treasurer as Treasurer, and as Liberal Party It is probably good that in Parliament there Leader, and I feel sure he knows that he should be a public airing of matters which will have my loyal support at all times. I have ramifications that extend over the whole of the State. al~o believe that he respects my rights in this place to speak on a matter of principle. Mr. Aikens: You are not political yo-yos Mr. Davies: You protesteth too much. or puppets dangling on the end of a string. Mr. LICKISS: I do not protest too much. Mr. HUGHES: We are not. We in the Liberal Party, and in the Country Party, I deeply regret the passage of the Bill express our views according to our conscience. up to the present stage. We might speculate That is what Opposition members are· j-ealous on what would have been the reaction had of. We must realise that if there are any the tables been turned, for I think this puppets around here they are members of is extremely important. What would have the Australian Labour Party, who dance been the reaction if hon. members opposite every time the strings are pulled by their had been in the Government benches and masters in the Q.C.E. we had been in the Opposition benches? I hazard a guess that we would be accusing Mr. SPEAKER: Order! them of doctrinaire Socialism in its worst Mr. HUGHES: If there is to be any soul­ form, and that we would have lifted the very searching in this regard, we must find where roof of Parliament in our opposition to it should rightly be done. We on this side of such a measure. the House, members of the Country Party and I think it is only fair, while this brave the Liberal Party, have the right to voice attitude is prevailing, that we should pause our views according to our conscience, maybe and reflect for a moment on what our because we have the courage of our convic­ attitude would have been in different circum­ tions or maybe because we do and say things stances. It is possible rhat this is the crux in accordance with our sincere and honest of the whole issue. What would have been beliefs. We are not suggesting we are our reaction to similar legislation had we absolutely right, but let no-one take that been in the Opposition benches? In expres­ right away from us, or claim that it is sing views I have I referred to an editorial. not a good thing for our party, the public I should like to quote again the last para­ and the State of Queensland. It is a good graph of the editorial. It reads- thing in debating and analysing any measure. We do this simply without any dereliction "This does not mean, however, that the of duty or disloyalty. agreement is a sound one. It is not cl~ar that Queensland, in the long run, Because apparently umbrage has been taken wrll do better. It is a sound principle that at some remarks, I want the Treasurer and all banks should share in school banking other hon. members to understand that, like business. Also, the provision that the my colleagues, I have debated this Bill, as agreement extends for 20 years is bad." il do any

Mr. HUGHES: I have no desire to get and previous ones. They are some of the there. major points that have been debated, and I The Treasurer complains of criticism that believe that the Leader of the Opposition has been levelled at the Bill. As responsible has not recognised social and economic members of Parliament, surely we are not changes. That is probably the reason why expected simply to sit here and coo like in both the State and Federal political arenas emasculated doves? What good purpose the Australian Labour Party will remain in would that serve? If any are to look like political oblivion. It has not kept up with puppets. I know that that can be left to the times and adjusted its thinking from days those associated with the Trades Hall faction. gone by to the present day. One might refer to it as penny-farthing thinking in a jet An Opposition Member: Here we go again. age. If the Australian Labour Party does not change its thinking, I am positive that it Mr. HUGHES: Hon. members opposite will remain on the Opposition benches. It know that I am not a Red-baiter. These cannot possibly prove that it is able to control charges, however, have been made by some the public purse or protect the pockets of Opposition members, and I think it only fair the people unless it does. that I should be allowed to refute them. If hon. members opposite do not agree with I voiced my opposition to this measure what we say, at least they should defend our in the party room as long ago as last year, right to say it and respect us for putting our and I have argued in this debate on the points views forward. I stated clearly my attitude of principle on the "business deal" aspect. I on this matter. If statements that I made or have examined the arguments for and against figures that I quoted need correction, I shall the Bill and considered the possible benefits accept it; I would be a very small person if I and losses. In my opinion, the present adopted any other attitude. What I said is administration of savings-bank business at what I believe to be right. schools enables the Commonwealth Savings Bank to run its business on the cheap. Reference was made to my remark that the Teachers have to take time out from teaching agreement is a wholly immoral act of and are reduced almost to the level of milk­ administration. I referred to the original vendors and bankers. The system that is now agreement, which had been signed. applied and working in Western Australia Certainly I said that, but I said it not could have been applied by agreement in this in the way in which the Treasurer has taken State. I understand that the State's own bank it. that is, as referring to his signature to this is in competition with other banks in Western agreement before it was brought to Parlia­ Australian schools. ment. It was admitted by the previous Treasurer that the deed had been done and Mr. Walsh: Only because it could not the agreement had been signed, so that mem­ handle it. bers were placed in the position of being Mr. HUGHES: What is the position in presented with a fait accompli and were Western Australia? Everyone has a full right expected merely to rubber-stamp it. of choice, because all the banks are allowed The Treasurer said that the usual practice in. It was not a question of the Common­ and procedure has been followed, and that wealth Bank being unable to handle the this was the only possible method. Why was business. it the only possible method? As I have Mr. Walsh: No, because the Rural Bank said before, there was in existence an agree­ could not handle it. ment that had been in force for many years. Certainly it expired in the middle of last Mr. HUGHES: The Commonwealth Bank year, and the Bill dates the new agreement wanted sole rights, as it did here. The fact is back to 1 July, 1965. Surely some temporary that every bank, including the State bank, is agreement could have been negotiated by the allowed to operate in the schools in Western then Treasurer, Sir Thomas Hiley, to allow Australia. It is open and free competition, the matter to come before the House for the which is only fair. What has happened? fullest explanation and analysis, following Firstly, there has been a refreshing change; which a decision could have been made one secondly, there is a right of ohoice; and, way or the other. thirdly, school-teachers are able to do what they are really meant to do--teach-not act Although arguments have been advanced as milk-vendors, bankers, fee collectors, and for and against the Bill, obviously it will be collectors of bus fares. A similar system passed. What I have said in this debate was would have been a good thing for Queens­ never intended to impugn the character of land schools. any person; all I have done is debate the measure objectively and sincerely. I wonder Problems have arisen in State schools in if the same can be said of the Leader of the Queensland because of the greatly increased Opposition? He said that the Labour Party numbers of children requiring education. The initiated this agreement many years ago; that Government has had many demands made on it is no different from previous agreements; it but, generally speaking, it has dealt with and that the Opposition presents no arguments the problems satisfactorily. On the other against it. That is what he said, but I do hand, there is still room for improvement. If not believe it to be so. Surely there are private savings banks had the right of entry essential differences between this agreement to State schools, teachers would not have to 644 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill concern themselves with banking business. ~ave put our views forcefully and fiercely at Not every bank would operate at a school times m the heat of argument during the at the one time. The banks would draw up debate, but they have been also objective and a roster by agreement and one bank at a time constructive. Some of us on this side of the would look after the business for all of them. House have taken the opportunity of exer­ Those administrative duties would be carried cising our right to express, according to our out without the teacher being taken away consciences, our political beliefs on behalf from his true profession. of the people we represent. As I said earlier, I have joined with other hon. members while other hon. members may not agree on this side of the Chamber in saying that with what we say, I believe that they should the Treasurer's arguments on the business side defend our right to say it. may prove to be right, but I think they may very well be wrong. As the Treasurer said, Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (12.27 p.m.): I this is a business deal and only time will tell do not intend to reiterate any of my whether or not it is a good one. comments during the debate on the amend­ ment, but there are a couple of points that Mr. Walsh: There is a good report on the I wish to make relating to the general Commonwealth Bank in this morning's news­ principles of the Bill. I wish to make some paper. brief comments also on some of the remarks Mr. HUGHES: There are good reports on that have been made this morning by hon. all banks; let us face it. Although there may members opposite. be a good report today on the Common­ First, as far as the Bill is concerned, one wealth Savings Bank, if one looks at the point that strikes me is that the Treasurer has statistics over the years one sometimes finds not indicated as yet-I might have missed it that savings in all banks have escalated. -what the current position is in the hiatus Mr. Walsh: They have been going up and that has developed since 30 June, 1965. up. Have we been getting by more or less on an act of faith by the Commonwealth Bank Mr. HUGHES: In spite of that, Queens­ since that time? Have we been making our land has incurred losses. It may be argued drawings of 70 per cent., or have they been that savings bank deposits in the community suspended pending ratification of the agree­ are increasing. This is because society is ment. affluent. However, it is what happens 20 years hence that counts, not what happens Mr. Chalk: They have been suspended; tomorrow. It is true that discussions can they have been put aside on the under­ take place at five-year intervals, but the st :nding that if the agreement is ratified they agreement that Parliament is asked to ratify will be made up. is for 20 years. Can any hon. member predict with accuracy what the economic Mr. HA'l'.'LON: I appreciate that the Bill situation will be in 10 years or 20 years, provides for retrospectivity once the agree­ what level savings will have reached or ment is ratified; but this is a point that must anything of that sort? Of course he ca~not. be of concern to the people of Queensland, One of the reasons why I supported the and particularly to hon. members, when the move to have this proposal referred to a State Treasury has been under extreme select committee is that it has been said pressure in assisting the State's primary that this agreement is a good business deal producers and other people who have been and I wondered if it could stand investiga­ affected by the ravages of drought. Irrespec­ tion. If it could not, then it certainly tive of what some hon. members in the would be worth while doing something Liberal Party consider to be matters of about it. principle to them-and they have the right to have those matters considered if they wish Mr. Walsh: Is it good business? -the net effect on the State has been that Mr. HUGHES: I have my doubts about for some 12 months or more our right to use it; but time may prove that it is a good these drawings has been suspended. We have business deal. Time may prove the not lost it if these retrospective provisions are Treasurer's predictions to be true. His ratified; but during this period of extreme opinion inay prove to be far better than my financial stringency, which the Treasurer own. However, I wonder whether the State referred to earlier in this session, and at a should gamble to the extent that it is time when representations have been made gambling in this agreement. to the Federal Government for special assist­ ~mce, we have not got as much as we want. As I have said, from my own point of The delays have been sponsored largely by view this debate has not been conducted as a this group of dissident hon. members of the slanging match but in an objective and sincere Liber<1l Party, at a time of financial way. I have the highest esteem for the stringency and when we had to put aside for Treasurer, and in no way have I tried to the time being our right to a substantial sum impugn him. There has been no desire on of loan money from the Commonwealth my part to do so. If my remarks have been Savings Bank. taken in that way, then I would hasten to correct that impression. I have no desire to Mr. Hughes: That is not because of any impugn anybody's character. We certainly opposition that we may have expressed. Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 645

Mr. HANLON: I resist the temptation to "Hansard" then records "Opposition laughter". go back over the history of this matter as I That laughter arose because the Treasurer outlined it yesterday. It was indicated con­ said that the opportunity presented itself. clusively that this matter went to Cabinet in It took 15 months for that opportunity to 1965, when it was accepted by Cabinet on present itself. the advice of the then Treasurer. 1 do not deny the right of the Government joint In his supercilious fashion the hon. member Caucus to assert their rights as they see for Toowong said, "The poor ~oves. over them. Because of that and the extension there do not realise that the public Will not of the matter into the outside sphere of be affected by any suggestion they make about political operations of the Liberal Party what the Leader of the Liberal Party might itself-the Treasurer said yesterday that he have done in taking the matter to his party was not prepared to bring the Bill to Parlia­ council before bringing it to Parliament." ment until it had been cleared by the Liberal The public have no chance, because "The Party State council-time has gone on. I Courier-Mail" did not even report to them do not know exactly who was responsible for the opinions expressed by the Leader o~ the the delay. The net effect to the State is what Opposition on this _matte~. The attitude concerns us, not the wrangling in the Liberal of the Press is certamly different now from Party. A point that the Treasurer had not its attitude in the 1950's, when very strong clarified was whether the Commonwealth suggestions made by the Liberal Party and Bank was, by favour, continuing these draw­ the Country Party about interference by ings during the interim period on the under­ outside bodies in the Australian Labour standing that there would be ratification of Party were emblazoned in "The Courier­ the agreement. Mail". However, I will not spend any more time on that point. I referred to it only The hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha raised because of the comments of the hon. the question as to what the attitude of the members for Mt. Coot-tha and Toowong. Liberal and Country Parties in Opposition would be if a Labour Government had An Opposition Member: You may be certain brought this agreement to Parliament. I that you will not be reported. venture to say that it is fair comment to Mr. HANLON: Possibly so, but that does suggest that the present Treasurer and his not concern me so much. I think the people colleagues would be doing a tribal war dance of Queensland are entitled to have these on this side and complaining about a Socialist matters reported equally, whether they affect Government. I do not think anybody can the Country-Liberal Party or the ALP. deny that. If a Labour Treasurer or Labour Certainly, plenty of space was given on page Leader had risen in this Chamber to bring 1 of the Press to report the remarks by the down any Bill, particularly a Bill relating hon. member for Gregory during the to an agreement with a body such as the Address-in-Reply debate; they were considered Commonwealth Savings Bank, saying that he to be sufficiently important to be reported. had not been prepared to bring it to Parlia­ The lack of reference to this very important ment before clearing it with the party matter which was raised yesterday by the executive, there would have been much more Leader of the Opposition on behalf of the hullabaloo from hon. members opposite than Opposition relative to the Treasurer's action there has been on this occasion, when it was is to be deplored. said by their own Leader. "The Courier­ Mail" would have carried a four-column JVf.r. Duggan: At least Cl em J ones was special editorial on the front page in such well reported on page 3. terms as, "Is democracy dead? Responsible Cabinet Ministers of the Labour Government Mr. HANLON: That matter received are not prepared to introduce legislation quite a big write-up. approved by Cabinet into the sovereign State To clear up a small doubt in my mind Parliament until it has been cleared by the before the Committee stage, I wish to refer State party executive." to a few remarks made by the Treasurer Of course, in this morning's "Courier-Mail" at the introductory stage concerning negotia­ there is no reference at all to the remarks tions that preceded this agreement. On two of the Leader of the Opposition and other occasions he used the words, "a little more hon. members on this side concerning that sweetening." He said that he went to Sydney matter. About three lines in all were devoted to try to negotiate a better arrangemen~. to the speech of the Leader of the Opposi­ From the words he used throughout his tion. No reference was made to the very speech, it was obvious that h~ meant a stinging comments he and others on this side better arrangement for the associated banks made about the situation and the voluntary and not for the State of Queensland. He admission of the Treasurer yesterday that he said he made an offer to the Commonwealth had not been prepared to bring this Bill into Bank, "which included something that had Parliament until he had secured the clearance just a little more sweetening in it than is of the Liberal Party executive. The in the present agreement." Treasurer's exact words were- Is the Treasurer prepared to tell us the "I was not prepared to sign the new background to the introduction of this agree­ agreement until. I cleared it first with the ment? What was the little extra sweetening council of the Liberal Party, because the he was prepared to offer the Commonwealth opportunity presented itself." Bank? Apparently it was rejected, but what 646 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill was the quid pro quo? He later referred to manager of the Commonwealth Savings Bank, the fact that the Commonwealth Savings Mr. Norman. It was submitted to Parlia­ Bank in Queensland had been suffering some ment for ratification. If Parliament wants losses. He was challenged on this by the to alter the agreement, as the hon. member hon. member for Kurilpa particularly, and for Bundaberg said yesterday, the usual pro­ he pointed out that one of the reasons was cedure adopted is to move for the postpone­ the very favourable rate of interest this ment of clauses 2 and 3 of the Bill until after State had enjoyed under the previous agree­ debate on the schedule. Then if Parliament ment, and said that this had contributed to wants to delete a clause or alter a word in the losses. He then used the same words the agreement it can do so, and it can then in a different vein, when he said, "But we make amendments to clause 2 of the Bill. are aware of this, and that is one of the reasons this Bill has a little extra sweetening I do not say that that will happen, because in the interest rate." He used that term on the Opposition and the Government have one occasion when referring to something he no intention of supporting any amend­ offered the Commonwealth Bank which was ment. In that way Parliament could not accepted and apparently is not in the say that the Treasurer is now authorised agreement, and again in relation to something to execute the altered agreement, rather contained in the agreement. It will be than that he has always had that authority. interesting to hear from him whether he is Instead of the Treasurer bringing here prepared to give us further information as for ratification an agreement already to the respective sweetenings that he offered signed by him, Parliament will give to in his negotiations on this agreement before the Treasurer an agreement which it would it came to Parliament. be willing to ratify to see if the Common­ wealth Savings Bank is prepared to sign it. Mr. Walsh: Their investments were for­ Virtually that would mean that the agreement merly tied to a lower rate of interest. was rejected by the House and it would go back to taws except that ratification would Mr. HANLON: That is true; they were. have been secured in advance. Therefore Taking the words used by the Treasurer, it Parliament still has the final say in this matter, would seem that he related them to a time and it is incorrect for the hon. member for when he was carrying on subsequent negotia­ Kurilpa to claim that it is a fait accompli. tions after the original agreement made by I agree with him when he claims that Parlia­ Sir Thomas Hiley, which suggests that if there ment should not necessarily have to agree is now a little extra sweetening in this to it, hence the Committee procedure. agreement it is something which initially had not been stipulated as one of the bank's Mr. RAMSDEN (Merthyr) (12.42 p.m.): I requirements. However, because time regret that earlier this morning, in the absence dragged on with the backward and forward of the hon. member for Aspley at an electoral negotiations and the two Treasurers function, an hon. member made certain stumbling over the original agreement, we had remarks about what the hon. member for to accept a deal that was slightly less favour­ Aspley had said in this Chamber. Had the able than the Commonwealth Bank originally hon. member for Aspley been present he was prepared to offer. In other words, the would have entered the debate either by Treasurer went to them and said, "Here is a interjection or on a point of order. little extra sweetening if you let the asso­ I make it quite clear that the hon. member ciated banks enter the schools." The Com­ for Aspley was not alone in his feeling that monwealth Bank said, "You have mucked aspersions had been cast on members of the around for so long that we will have that Liberal Party by a previous speaker who little extra sweetening too, thank you and asserted that he was not prepared to sell his we still will not let the other banks' into principles. I felt the same resentment myself. the schools." It seems that, here again, I enter the debate this morning only to make the group that is trying to delay this matter clear my position as a Liberal. has, if anything, contributed to the disadvan­ tage of the State rather than to its benefit. Mr. Walsh: Are you speaking as secretary of the Caucus? Finally, I refer to the fact that the hon. member for Toowong and others seem to Mr. RAMSDEN: No; as the Liberal mem­ think that there is no analogy between the ber for Merthyr. Some of my colleagues proceedings adopted in respect of this agree­ said that this legislation is repugnant to them ment and those that applied to other agree­ as Liberals and claimed that their principles ments that have been brought to this House. could not be bought. Because it has been If they care to look at the Amoco agreement said in some quarters that I may not be as Bill they will find that it contains four clauses Liberal as I am, I make no apology for saying that are almost identical with those in this I am a Liberal and I am a member of the agreement. Liberal Party. It is not true, as the hon. members for As I understand the Liberal policy or Clayfield and Kurilpa claimed this morning, platform, we, as a party, believe in private that this agreement was brought to Parlia­ enterprise as long as it is in the interests of ment as a fait accompli. It was brought to the State-and I repeat, as long as it is in Parliament as an agreement which had been the interests of the State. I for one refuse, signed by the State Treasurer and the general as a Liberal, to say that I am committed to Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 647 believe in private enterprise at any cost and "32. Promotion of the incentive to pro­ under any circumstances, wise or unwise, duce by claiming in taxation as little from right or wrong. If this were not so the income as is practicable, having regard to Liberal Party, in its wisdom, over the years the essential needs of defence, social and would have moved against State ownership public services, and of the economy, and of the railways and Federal participation in to equity as between taxpayers." Trans-Australia Airlines. We would also With your indulgence, Mr. Speaker, I now have moved for the sale of the Postmaster­ read clause 40- General's Department, and we certainly would not now have any part of the State "40. ,Protection of the community medical services available through our public against any monopolies, combines and hospitals. industrial organisations where, through absence of competition or by restrictive To place the position on record, I now practices, they operate in a manner con­ wish to read from page 5 of the official plat­ trary to the public interest." form of the Liberal Party of Australia, under I have read those clauses-much to your the heading "Economic and Financial." It dismay, Mr. Speaker-because I feel that they reads- are bound up with the Bill. "25. The fostering of an economic climate favourable to the best use of avail­ I should like to say that this question of able resources and for the promotion of the agreement was, as the Treasurer has said, general prosperity and rising standards of decided by the Council of the Liberal Party living. in recent weeks. It is equally true that some time ago Convention, the supreme governing "26. Preservation of a competitive, free­ body of the Liberal Party, resolved that enteTprise economy, as the most effective negotiations with the private banks be pursued means of using our resources to advantage to see if some other solution could be and as the dynamic force for progress. reached. "27. Rejection of socialistic and totali­ Mr. R. Jones: This is direction from an tarian controls as retarding progress and outside body. impeding initiative. "28. Use of central banking, budgetary Mr. RAMSDEN: Not at all; it is an and fiscal policies to maintain a high level expression of the will of the people who of employment and stability of the support us, and that is what we look for. In currency, to avoid inflationary and the joint party room this agreement was deflationary conditions, and to promote decided. I should like to say further that had rapid development of the nation. we sat in Convention rather than Council a few weeks ago, I am certain, on the argu­ "29. Maintenance of the Reserve Bank ments that the Treasurer and Leader of the to perform central banking functions, under Liberal Party presented to Council, that Con­ the control of a Board, and completely vention would have had no alternative but separated from the Commonwealth to vote exactly as Council did. Trading Bank, the Commonwealth Savings Bank, and the Development Bank. Mr. Duggan: That is rather a vote of no confidence in the Treasurer's predecessor. "30. Encouragement of a high rate of He should have had all the facts for the savings and of investment of capital from Liberal convention. local and overseas sources." Mr. RAMSDEN: I do not intend to be Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I trust that the side-tracked. hon. member does not intend to read all the Having read from the platform of the clauses in that document. Liberal Party, I am certain in my own mind Mr. RAMSDEN: With respect, Mr. that no Liberal principles are being chal­ Speaker, the Treasurer and some other mem­ lenged. Let me go back to that platform. bers of the Liberal Party have been attacked Clause 25 says-- on the ground that the Bill does not accord ''The fostering of an economic climate with Liberal principles. I think I am right in favourable to the best use of available showing that it does accord with Liberal resources . . ." principles. Is not that exactly what this agreement does? As the Treasurer has pointed out already, Mr. SPEAKER: The hon. member is quite there would have been a loss to the State of right in showing that, but I do not think it is many millions of dollars if the agreement had necessary to read the whole policy of the not been signed. Liberal Party. Clause 26 says- Mr. RAMSDEN: Thank you for your "Preservation of a competitive, free­ tolerance so far, Mr. Speaker. May I proceed enterprise economy, as the most effective to read two more clauses, then I shall leave means of using our resources to advan­ this subject. They read- tage ..." "31. Provision of efficient basic services I remind the House that the hon. member proper to government for the needs and for Bundaberg yesterday hit the nail on the development of the economy. head when he said that in effect the 648 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill

Treasurer had called tenders. Is not this a I believe that, apart from financial con­ free-enterprise Government? Is not that a siderations to the State, the private banks free-enterprise action? One says, "This is could not cope with the right of entry into what company A is prepared to do. Are you State schools if they had been given it, prepared to match it, or aren't you?" because private banks would have to be Mr. Hanlon: You put all the tenders in one selective and they would be forced to pick box at the one time. You don't allow the the eyes out of the State school banking services. I cannot see that the private second person to come along and have a banks have the organisation within them­ peep at the first person's tender before tendering. selves, remembering that they are in com­ petition with each other, to cover the whole Mr. RAMSDEN: Clause 30 says­ State education system as does the Common­ wealth Bank, which extends even to the "Encouragement of a high rate of remotest corners of the State. savings and of investment of capital from local and overseas sources." At a function that I attended only a few nights ago, a very responsible private bank Is not that the very principle of the Liberal officer confided that his bank could be Party that the Treasurer has carried out in embarrassed if it had to take over school this agreement? banking. The Treasurer has already said in this When the Treasurer placed his report House that he expects a hard Budget, and before the private banks, saying, in all hon. members know there will be a effect, "This is what the Commonwealth shortage of money. As chairman of ~he Bank is prepared to do for the State. Can Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board, which you match it? Can you make any offer relies largely on loan moneys and Govern­ which could even be taken to be some form ment control of budgets to carry on its of comparison with the Commonwealth protection of life and property in this city, Bank's offer?", one of the reasons why they let me say that I have to face up to the same did not try to compete, I suggest, was that problems, in a lesser degree, that the the private trading banks are so highly com­ Treasurer faces in the wider field of State petitive with one another that they could finance. Neither as a State nor as a semi­ not offer any common front. governmental authority can we afford to lose the benefits of this Agreement. I might illustrate this by recalling a talk I had with a consortium of private com­ Having spoken of the political bearing of panies in connection with a joint engineering this Bill on myself as a Liberal, I wish to project. When speaking of this engineering make one or two comments relative to its project they spoke with a common voice effect. In the first place, I am prepared to because they were able to unite as a con­ accept the Government's assurance that this sortium in their common interest. But agreement is worth many millions of dollars when I wanted to talk with them about the to Queensland for certain considerations, one economics of dredging they all refused to of which is the sole right of entry by the take an active part in any further talks. Commonwealth Bank into State schools. They said, "We are in open competition one Now, what is the effect of this agreement? with the other in this particular field." I Certainly there is no compulsion upon any feel that the private trading banks are possibly in the same dilemma with regard parent to bank at a school. It is obvious that to this agreement. United, they wanted to parents can operate trust accounts for their school children with the private banks if they go into the schools; in competition one with the other, they could present no common wish to, but not in school buildings in front to make the Treasurer any substantial school hours. The Bill certainly does not offer. prevent any parent from doing that. If the feeling advanced by those in the Chamber To sum up, might I say that, as a matter who oppose the Bill being read a second time of political principle, the Treasurer was is a general one and if, as they say, there is justified in signing the agreement, and, as general dismay and opposition to it, then a matter of competitive business, he was those who are concerned and those who further justified and is to be congratulated disagree should protest and show their on the stand he took. disagreement by closing the Commonwealth [Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m .] Savings Bank school accounts that they now operate. They have a perfect right to do that; the agreement does not force them to Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ keep the accounts open. Treasurer) (2.15 p.m.), in reply: It is true that this Bill, which I believe in broad prindple Finally, I do not believe that the private can be described as a very simple measure, banks were quite in earnest in their endeavour has possibly attracted more debate than any to obtain this school franchise. If they were, other measure for some considerable time. it is obvious that they would have made It is equally true that the debate has produced some offer in competition, to quote the evidence of some dissension or variation of 1 benefits that they were prepared to give the interest among certain members of the State, when the Treasurer asked them what Government parties. I want to make it clear ~ they could do. that I feel that the main difference ofJ Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 649 opinion is associated with only one facet of hon. members for Toowong, Mt. Coot-tha the measure, that is, as I said yesterday, the and Kurilpa. In turn, they adopted virtually restriction on the entry of private savings the same line of argument as they advanced banks into State schools. at the introductory stage. From my point I feel that the issue has been fairly fully of view they expressed the attitude that, covered from almost every angle. For my having contested the measure on the basis own part I have made four fairly long of an amendment, they were prepared to speeches. I have done this deliberately as I accept what might be described as the hoped I would be able to clear up any mis­ democratic decision of this Parliament, understandings or other thoughts in the mind namely, the decision of the majority of of any hon. member that anything was being those who constitute it. I accept their hidden, or that there was anything within assurance on that matter. the proposal that had not been fully explained or fully written into the Bill. Reference was made to something that In speaking to the amendment yesterday I said in the opening stages of the debate. afternoon I covered most of the points raised I said I was surprised at the attitude of by the Leader of the Opposition, so I do not some members of my party. I said that think there is any need for me to labour because. as I indicated to the House, this further any of the points he raised, other legislation was not brought here until it than to say that I appreciate the position in had been fully discussed and approved of which he finds himself. Had I been on his within the joint Government party room. side of the Chamber and seen the variance That is the principle of government followed of opinion w,ithin the Government parties, throughout the Commonwealth of Australia naturally I may have endeavoured to drive as I know it, and, for that matter, it i·s a wedge or expound on those differences of the broad basis of democracy. Within opinion by raking into the discussion what the joint party meeting those members had might be considered to be a few red herrings. full opportunity to express their dissension After all, the Leader of the Opposition and to bring forward, as forcibly as they has had quite some experience in breaking could, every argument against this proposal. up political parties. Although he has I then proceeded to say that, having placed succeeded in one direction and has split one all those arguments before their fellow mem­ party apart, let me say to him that I do not bers, this measure was approved of on the believe that he has either the ability or, might majority of voices. Then, firstly as Treasurer I say, the basis to cause some break within of the State and secondly as leader of the the Government. I do not deny him his right party, I was fully justified in bringing the to try; that is his right and prerogative. Bill before this House. I say to the hon. Both the Leader of the Opposition and the member for Mt. Coot-tha, who felt that hon. member for Baroona referred to the fact I accused him, or some of those who that I said I had cleared this matter with my associated themselves with the amendment, own political party. I said that in all sin­ of welshing, that he used the word, n

There are only three issues that I feel by the Commonwealth Savings Bank were I am expected to clarify. A good deal eliminated and some of those sought by the was said about clause 10 (b) of the schedule. Queensland Government were added. The terminology of that clause was that of I do not believe it is right and proper for the bank. It is true that I discussed with me to outline all the earnings and goings in officers of the bank just what they expected these negotiations. After all, the previous of the Government, can I say, in exchange Treasurer was negotiating on behalf of the for the offer they were making. After State of Queensland. He was prepared .to discussion, the bank followed the terminology turn some of his cards face up in the negotia­ of the previous agreements. I asked the tions and he expected the Commonwealth bank officers, as some hon. members have Bank to do the same. Might I say that asked in this Chamber, exactly what this possibly some of the car~s . were also face clause meant. Perhaps it could have been down during those negotJatwns. However, written in more precise language, and perhaps finally, when a decision was reached, the if it had been we might have been tying cards on both sides, were all face up, and a much tighter string around the agreement that i~ the way in which any two businessmen, than we have at present. However, the bank hard and shrewd though they may be, would chose the particular words that are used. conduct negotiations. There is no doubt in my mind what the clause means, nor do I believe there is During my personal bus_ines~ career. I .had any doubt in the minds of the officers of the the responsibility of engagmg m negotiatiOns Commonwealth Savings Bank or its Board on many occasions. Since I have ~e!l a what it means. member of this Government and a Mm1ster of the Crown, I have also had the responsi­ It is true that perhaps someone may be able bility of negotiating on behalf of this State, to place some other construction upon the first in close liaison with the late Ernest words, but for my part and the Government's Evans and later on my own, with the part-and, I believe I can say without fear Japanese and other overseas people. I believe of contradiction, the Commonwealth Savings that those negotiations were in the int~rests Bank's part-this clause of the schedule gives of Queensland. As a result of my expenence, to the Commonwealth Savings Bank the sole I know that one does not place all one's cards right to enter State schools for savings-bank face up at the beginning. That is why I said purposes during the period of the agreement. earlier that some sweeteners were added by This is, after all, an agreement between a the State early in these negotiations in the sovereign State and, I believe, an equally hope that we would get some of ~he things reputable Commonwealth-wide banking we were seeking, and at that stage 1t was not organisation. a question of eliminating the right of the Let me say to the House that there are no Commonwealth Savings Bank to have sole skeletons in the cupboard; there is nothing entry to State schools. hidden, and nothing else is intended. It is Mr. Hanlon: I accept that; but the point an agreement that gives to the State of I am making relates to the sweetener that Queensland considerable benefit in exchange for the concession that the bank sought. I you offered finally. object to any expressed or implied suggestion Mr. CHALK: I will come to that. that there is any misrepresentation in relation to the agreement. For the information of the Mr. Hanlon: In relation to the second con­ hon. member for Baroona, it is true that cession, that would be an offer on behalf of during negotiations I did, as I described it, the banks, not on behalf of the State. attempt to add some sweetening to the Mr. CHALK: If the hon. member will be original terms, because I believed that there a little patient, I will come to that. I ~o not was perhaps still a chance that the responsible have anything to hide, but I am trymg to negotiators of the Commonwealth Bank make the position very clear because the would depart from the principle that they hon. member left me with the impression had so rigidly laid down. that he was questioning whether there was Mr. Walsh: They were entitled to some some difference between the sweetener I modification, too. offered to the bank and what might be described as the first agreement entered into Mr. CHALK: That is so. by Sir Thomas Hiley. I think I have indicated I want to say, to clear the mind of the clearly that there was no variation b~twee_n hon. member for Baroona and also to have the final decision that was reached w1th S1r recorded in the pages of "Hansard" for all Thomas Hiley when he was Treasurer of who desire to read it, that the agreement that Queensland and the agreement that I ulti­ I signed was identical in all respects with mately signed. that which Sir Thomas Hiley had signed and Mr. Hanlon: But you did offer something of which he sought his party's approval so extra that is not in this agreement? that it could be ratified in this House. Before Sir Thomas Hiley's signature was placed on Mr. CHALK: I am prepared to deal """:ith the agreement, not only many discussions but that further point now. It is true that dunng a number of "sweeteners", to use the word the time I was responsible for the negotia­ of my predecessor. were applied to the tions I not only visited the bank but I aJso negotiations so that some of the things sought went to Sydney to negotiate with top-rankmg Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 651 officers. I put a proposal to them and last agreement. I know that the Common­ suggested that perhaps they would be wealth Savings Bank has earmarked a certain prepared to forgo the right of sole entry amount of money for that purpose. On into schools in exchange for something better the other hand, the Government has had to than the rate of interest that had been out­ utilise funds, which possibly could have been lined in the original agreement. I do not used for other purposes, to ensure that it hide that. could continue its housing programme. Mr. Hanlon: You were giving away some­ As Treasurer of this State, I am faced thing that was of advantage to the State to with having to bring down the Budget on get an advantage for the associated banks. Thursday of next week. It has been That is the very point I am making. necessary for me to know, before that Budget is brought down, exactly where the State is Mr. CHALK: Throughout the debate the heading. No-one can go on indefinitely hon. member for Baroona has endeavoured, fooling himself, fooling his Government, or, I think, to make some type of political for that matter, fooling the people of Queens­ capital out of this particular issue. He is land. We had to know what would be saying now that I offered something that was available to us, and we had to know within the right of the State in exchange for some­ the past week so that we could complete thing that he claims would have been to the the Budget. If this money was not going benefit of the associated banks. to drift into the Housing Commission Fund, Mr. Hanlon: That is true. You did, too. it meant that, if we were to continue the rate of home building that we had built up Mr. CHALK: Let me put it to the hon. during the time we have been in office, we member more bluntly than that. I was would have to take something like $2,000,000 endeavouring to get the best deal for the out of some other Vote and from some other State of Queensland, and I believed that department, and it meant also that we would possibly it would be better to have all the have to deny ourselves some of the benefits, banking interests in Queensland in complete the amenities and the progress thaJt is envis­ unity and harmony in this matter than to aged in the Budget. Therefore, it was have a variance of opinion among them. If essential that this matter be clarified. I may, I should like to adopt the words of I can take the matter further. If there one of the hon. members who spoke in were no agreement there would be a much opposition to the agreement and who said greater interest drain on Queensland. That that there was a possibility that the trading had to be allowed for in the Budget. I wish banks might take some of their interest and to present to this Chamber a Budget that some of their lending capacity away from is based on fact, based on knowledge, based the State. Having that in mind, was it not on consultation with my own Treasury better from my point of view to make certain officers, and based on the availability of that I should have both interests on side? I money as we saw it for the coming 12 was not prepared to sink the agreement. What months. That is why I wanted to have this I was prepared to do was to endeavour to matter cleared up before I brought the get complete unity among all banking Budget down. interests. I was not able to secure that, and, because of that, I then said, "All ~ight. If that Mr. Walsh: That is very important. is to be the deal, I will report back to my Cabinet on it." There was no sinister motive. Mr. CHALK: It is. So far as I was concerned, it was a con­ I give the hon. member for Baroona full tinuation of business negotiations which had, credit for trying to bring one or two red to put it in plain words, broken down herrings into the issue; that is politics. But between Sir Thomas Hiley, at the time he this agreement is more than politics; it is left the portfolio, and the Commonwealth something that is for the betterment of the Bank. State. I know of no way in which Queensland The hon. member for Baroona was the can obtain the benefits outlined in this one who this morning drew attention, and agreement without following it to the letter. very rightly so, to the fact that there has been That brings me back to the point raised such a long delay in this matter. I know about a principle. I do not want to labour that if by some mischance there was a the point, but it has been said, and said change of Government the hon. member again, by those opposed to the agreement possibly could become Treasurer of this that they are opposing it on a basis of State, and because of his interest and thought principle. It was suggested by the hon. mem­ in this matter he would know that there has ber for Toowong that we were possibly been some difficulty in the past 12 months doing something that would be to the because we were not able to draw upon the detriment of children of the future. I do money that we would have otherwise secured. not concede that point. If we do not do this But I say now that this Government has now we are not only doing something to the taken a "punt", if I may use a racing detriment of children of the future but some­ expression, over this period. The Govern­ thing to the detriment of the State today. Is ment has been told by the Commonwealth it not the responsibility and the charge of Savings Bank that if this agreement is ratified every hon. member to try to do something the payments to the Government wilJ be for the State? Are we not here in the made retrospective to the termination of the interests of the people of Queensland? Are 652 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill we not here to ensure that this State will for Bundaberg, I do not think any objection continue to go forward so that in the future can be raised to the fact that the interest Queensland will be undeniably the best State concession under the new agreement will not in the Commonwealth? be as favourable as that agreed upon in As long as I am Treasurer, if it comes to 1920. Certainly it would be unreasonable a question of principle I will consider what to expect that it would, there being no com­ that principle means and what is the position pulsion whatever on the Commonwealth before me. I believe that my conscience, as Savings Bank to enter into any agreement with well as the conscience of my colleagues who the Government as the old agreement had have supported me, is clear on this occasion. terminated. The terms were then open for I believe that we have weighed all the issues fresh bargaining and I accept the Treasurer's and all the things that are involved. Having submission that the interest rates would have to be arrived at in the light of what each w~tghed them on a basis of principle, that pnnciple being our responsibility to Queens­ party was prepared to put up and bargain land as members of Parliament, I am certain on. I am not raising any objection to the the only conclusion we could come to is that fact that there is an alteration in the con­ this Bill must go through. The passage of cessional rate of interest available to us. the Bill will ensure that when I bring down I wish briefly to clarify a point I made the Budget I can say that certain money will during the second-reading stage, a point to become available to us from a specific source. which the Treasurer was good enough to When that money is available to Queensland, reply in considerable detail. I asked a and when we distribute it on the basis decided question relating to the stage at which the upon, we will be doing something of great original agreement had been abandoned and magnitude that will set the future pattern for Sir Thomas Hiley was instructed by Caucus the development of this State. to try to retrieve the situation. To use I leave it at that. I believe that we have Sir Thomas Hiley's words in answer to a clearly indicated to the people of Queensland question, he was asked to try to make some the basis on which the agreement was arrived new arrangement with the Commonwealth at, what is involved in the agreement, what Bank under which it would agree to the the responsibilities of the State are and what private banks participating in school banking. the responsibilities of the Commonwealth Sir Thomas Hiley failed, as did his successor, Savings Bank are. Having placed all those in this approach to the Commonwealth Bank. facts clearly before the House, let me con­ To use the words of the present Treasurer, he clude by saying that I believe that every fair­ said, "Here is a little bit more sweetening minded citizen, everyone who has the interests from the Government if you are prepared to of this State wholly and fully at heart, will vary what we have already agreed to in the say that this Bill has brought about a measure matter of your exclusive right." of assjstance to Queensland that completely I sought from the Treasurer details of the outweighs any of the minor points that have extra sweetening. I do not wish to con­ been raised in opposition to it. tinue the argument about the Treasurer's Motion (Mr. Chalk) agreed to. action in the light of his obligation to his Caucus and to the Liberal Party, as I have COMMITTEE dealt with that and my thoughts are clear. But that point having been reached, obviously (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper, this instruction from the Government Caucus Greenslopes, in the chair) to the former Treasurer, and to the present Clause l, as read, agreed to. Treasurer, to approach the Commonwealth Bank and offer extra sweetening in some Clause 2-Execution of Agreement way-an extra concession in return for the authorised- Commonwealth Bank's varying the pro­ Mr. HANLON (Baroona): I formally visional agreement by allowing the associated move- banks into schools-meant that the Govern­ ment Caucus was, in effect, telling the "That consideration of clauses 2 and 3 Treasurer, with his responsibility to the State, be postponed until after consideration of to offer a concession-virtually a loss to the the schedule." State, or something not quite as acceptable Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ to the State-in return for an advantage, not Treasurer) (2.50 p.m.): As I indicated in for the State, but for the associated banks. reply to the hon. member for Bundaberg in This was in the light of the original sub­ the second-reading stage of the Bill, I have missions made in Caucus, because the no objection to clauses 2 and 3 standing over associated banks were disadvantaged by not until the schedule has been discussed. being allowed into State schools. It was unfortunate that the Government Caucus Motion (Mr. Hanlon) agreed to. should place the Treasurer in the position Schedule--- of having to offer some extra concession that would, in reality, secure a further benefit Mr. HANLON (Baroona) (2.51 p.m.): I for the associated banks, not for the State. will not spend much time discussing the schedule, but I wish to refer particularly The only answer the Treasurer has given to clause 5, which relates to interest rates. is that he considered that in making that As has been suggested by the hon. member approach he was justified in giving this Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 653 extra concession because it would engender sort of clash of interests in the suggestion unity in the banking field in Queensland that he should adopt that attitude. The and that there would not be the discontent Press painted his stand as "the cause between the Commonwealth Savings Bank of gallant Gordon for the advance of and the other banks that he suggests will democracy against the Vikings in the corner." now exist. What concerns me particularly The Leader of the Opposition pointed out is that he more or less suggested the very at the second-reading stage that the Treasurer thing he had repudiated and damned in was actually prepared to make a concession the suggestion of the hon. member for against the interests of the State but in the Kurilpa, namely, that the private banks would interests of the associated banks. retaliate and use economic blackmail on the I do not want to be unfair and pursue Government by saying, "Unless we get the unnecessarily the probing of the Treasurer lolly we are after we will consider trans­ that I undertook at the second-reading stage. ferring interstate the deposit funds of Actually he was very frank; if anything, he Queenslanders." It is not the banks' money, was more than frank in many of his state­ as the hon. member for Mt. Gravatt sug­ ments in this debate. In an endeavour to gested. They are handling hundreds of score off the recalcitrant members of the millions of dollars of depositors' money Liberal Party sitting in the corner of the which is only theirs in trust; they are only Chamber, he probably gave away consider­ dealers in money. They were using economic ably more than he would otherwise have done blackmail by threatening to use the funds of what Mr. Speaker referred to as "dirty of Queensland depositors as advances in linen" while calling a member to order when other States. these matters were referred to yesterday. Mr. Carey: You don't believe that, do you? However, democracy has perhaps been better served by the fact that they have come out, :\'fr. HANLON: Frankly, I did not believe so the members sitting in the corner can it. I was pleased that the Treasurer savagely L1ke some consolation from that. repudiated the suggestion of the hon. mem­ ber for Kurilpa and other hon. members in For whatever reason the Commonwealth opposing the agreement who, the Treasurer Savings Bank rejected the additional claimed. had a brief from the private banks sweetener or bribe, or whatever it may be and were speaking for them. The Treasurer called, offered by the Treasurer at the direction of the Government parties, I am has no•~>· put it forward as justification for having offered this further concession that glad it did so, although I am not going to is not in this agreement; and it is not in say that it rejected it in the interests of the the agreement, on the Treasurer's words, State. Apparently in its own interests it was because the Commonwealth Savings Bank not prepared to change its attitude even for was not prepared to accept it. The b~ank said the sweetener offered at the expense of the it wanted what was in the agreement. State in an endeavour to assist the private banks. I am pleased that the extra sweetener In order to get the concession for the is not in the agreement, because it would private banks the Treasurer was instructed have been of benefit only to the private by the Government Caucus-largely, I banks. imagine, the Liberal section-to make an offer on behalf of the State that would I do not think very much can be said by advantage only the associated banks and way of objection or query concerning the would bring about unity or goodwill in remainder of the agreement. I notice that in the banking field in Queensland. He said, clause 4 of the schedule the money to be ·'If we did not make that offer, would we directed to the Queensland Housing Commis­ be justified? Those banks which have sion. for example. is to be by way of direct already been mentioned indirectly in this transfer instead of coming through the State. debate would divert some of the funds of This will give the State the advantage of Queenslanders to other States." Having extra financial resources in loan moneys condemned the suggestion of the hon. mem­ outside the Loan Council, which is a good ber for Kurilpa as unworthy of being put thing. forward in this Chamber and as an insult These moneys are to be made available to the private banks, he later used it himself by the bank "on its usual terms and condi­ as justification for the extra sweetening he tions." It seems that there is a slight was talking about that was offered to the sweetener there to the extent that money Commonwealth Bank to get this privilege coming direct to the State will be at the for the associated banks. concessional rate of interest set out in clause Mr. Duggan: Would not that action be 5. When funds are allocated direct to semi­ recreant to his responsibility? governmental bodies or the Queensland Housing Commission under clause 4, they Mr. HANLON: That interjection from are made available by the bank "on its the Leader of the Opposition is pertinent. usual terms and conditions." The interest I do not say that he would be recreant rate then applying would naturally be to his trust as Treasurer, as he sees it. But considerably in excess of the concessional we must agree that it conflicts with his rate of interest. However, the additional attitude, as recorded in "Hansard", that interest charges are no doubt outweighed by he regards his trust or his office as Treasurer the extra financial entitlement outside Loan as coming first. There seems to be some Council funds. 23 654 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill

Those are the only points that I wish to the confines of buildings owned by the State. make in considering the schedule. or we can bring some pressure to bear or use some persuasion on people who are Mr. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha) (3.4 p.m.}: obliged to use State grants or loans in the The matter now before the Committee is the administration of boards or projects that schedule to the Bill, which is in fact the come even remotely under the control of agreement, and it is the duty of the Com­ the State, the Bank can virtually demand, mittee to see that the principles enunciated under the terms of this particular clause of in the agreement are carried into effect by the agreement, that the State shall do every­ means of the schedule and in words that thing possible to give the Commonwealth clearly define such principles. Savings Bank, if it is a savings bank matter, During the second-reading stage I drew exclusive rights to that banking? That is attention to the fact that I intended to refer the first point, and I ask the Treasurer, in to clauses 10 and 12 of the schedule. We view of what I have said, whether he now were advised during the Treasurer's winding agrees that the terms of this agreement as up of the debate at the second-reading stage written go far beyond the confines of an that the bank had insisted on a clause giving exclusive right to school banking. If it it exclusive access to State schools. We means what it says, it goes beyond normal were advised earlier that this would flow State school banking. from clause 10 (b) of the schedule, which The second point that I raised during the reads- debate on the second reading related to "The State undertakes and agrees with clause 12, which says that at the expiration the Savings Bank during the cmrency of of each five-year period the agreement can this Agreement that- be examined again. I do not think it states (b) the State will in every possible explicitly the way in which the operation can way aid, assist and further the interests be undertaken. It does not include the of the Savings Bank in the conduct of words "mutual agreement between the its banking business in the State of parties''; but without those words it is diffi­ Queensland." cult to imagine how the clause can operate. I assume that although the words "mutual The important words in that clause are, "The agreement" are not incorporated in the State undertakes and agrees ..." to do cer­ wording of the clause they are at least tain things, and what it will do is set implied." out in subclause (b)-"the State" will-I repeat the important word "will"-in even; :vir. Coburn: They would be redundant. possible way aid, assist and further the interests of the Savings Bank in the conduct Mr. LICKISS: That might be right. But of its banking business in the State of then it is a question of the disadvantage to Queensland." The words "in the State of either party; to know how it could be agreed Queensland" must be noted carefully, too, that someone is getting a benefit and some­ because somewhere in the agreement one one else is losing on the deal, and for expects to find an "exclusivity" clause relating consent for a variation to be agreed upon. to State school banking. I suggest that one I fail to see how there could be an agree­ possibly would expect to find in the clause, ment, and consequently I fail to see, unless "the State will in every possible way aid, there is an advantage to both parties, how assist and further the interests of the Savings clause 12 can ope:mte. This clause will now Bank in the conduct of its banking business operate so that any variation to the agree­ in the State schools of Queensland.'' ment, which will be in force for the next 20 Of course, if the agreement is to be years, can be made by two people. One is limited, one must consider the words in it the general manager for the time being of and the exact meaning of the words, because the Commonwealth Savings Bank and the in 15 or 20 years' time the present Treasurer other is the Treasurer for the time being of and his officers probably will not be here the State of Queensland. There could be a to say what the intention was. As has been very harsh and marked variation from the said already, intentions do not matter a con­ point of view of what we in this place, at this tinental before a court of law, so one must time, consider to be in the interests of the dwell on the words. The only conclusion State. that I can come to is that the wording of If we bear in mind the wording of clause clause I 0 (b) must necessarily allow the bank I 0 (b), we see that the widest interpretation to go beyond an exclusive right to school can be placed upon it, and this could be done banking. In fact, it is explicit. It pro­ by two people. It will be done with the vides that the State will assist the Common­ approval of the Governor in Council by wealth Savings Bank in the conduct of its Order in Council-and we know how few of banking business in the State of Queensland, those orders receive the scrutiny of this a much wider implication and coverage than Parliament. merely the State schools. If these words are to remain in clause I 0 During the debate on the second read­ (b), I believe that the stage is set for unlimited ing, I asked this question: does this mean assistance to this bank by the State in com­ that if there is some way in which we can petition with other banks in Queensland. I encourage public servants to bank within ask the Treasurer if he has given some Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 655 thought to those words and whether the Queensland Housing Commission and the words are far too wide for his intentions Corporation of the Agricultural Bank would in relation to the exclusive right to school be made on an interest basis that would be banking, which is one of the considerations applicable to loans as if they had been raised upon which the Commonwealth Savings Bank on the open market or by debentures from is prepared to lend to the State Government. any other source; in other words, there would be no concessional rate of interest for Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (3.12 p.m.): At the particular loans referred to in clause 4. the outset, I say that my reason for At least it is a very good thing to have a suggesting the postponement of clause 2 was source of finance that can be tapped fairly that that clause authorises the Treasurer to readily. It is good to know that we can tap sign the agreement, and it could be that in it from year to year as long as the profits an atmosphere such as we have been are there and that this money is to be made experiencing for the last two days an upset available' to those two State instrumentalities. would take place. The members of the A.L.P., the Independents and the group of Mr. Hanlon: If we are virtual partners with rebellious Government members could have the Commonwealth Savings Bank, why isn't put their heads together, and, if there were our full drawing entitlement from that source some absentees, the Government could have recognised as being outside our Loan Council found itself in a very awkward position and approved borrowings? it would either have had to turn this agree­ ment down or send it back to another place because of some amendments that had been Mr. WALSH: I say quite definitely-! have suggested. said this over the years-that to some extent we were disadvantaged because the agreement I suggest to the Treasurer that he should was entered into prior to the Financial Agree­ have copies made of his introductory speech ment of 1927-28. With the agreement operat­ on this measure and have them disseminated ing as it was then, nobody could fores~e what in public circulation. I suggest this for the was going to happen eventually With the reason that apparently even "The Courier­ Federal Government's control of the Loan Mail" is not satisfied that this is necessarilY Council. The State representatives at that a good agreement, and I have gathered from time no doubt agreed to allow the amoul!t some editorial comment in the country Press that was being raised by way of domestic that there is confusion among the public. raisings to be considered as part of the over­ That may be so, because the real meat of ail raisings. I think that we have to some this matter has not been presented. extent suffered from this. As I have said How anybody could argue, after examining before, in the case of the other States with the text of this agreement, that it is not their instrumentalities, such as the South favourable to the State, I do not know. I do Australian Savings Bank and the Victorian not know how anyone could arrive at that Savings Bank, those funds are av~ilable to the conclusion because the financial provisions. Government and the semi-government which matter to me most in these discussions, authorities in those States without having to really do benefit the State. I do not think be taken into consideration in determining that the hon. member for Toowong or the the loan allocation for the State. hon. member for Clayfield would disagree with me when I say that. This State is The only thing that happened in that deriving some benefit, and some considerable respect is that we are still getting the benefit benefit, from the agreement, and this fact has of the concessional rate of interest. I can se-e to be conveyed to the public so that their the point raised by the. h_on. me~b~r for minds might be disabused of the suggestion Baroona. The pity of 1t IS that It 1s not that it will give the Commonwealth Savings isolated completely from the discussion of Bank a monopoly in school banking, in par­ the over-all loan allocation. If the Common­ ticular, to the detriment of the associated wealth Bank is to make these extra funds banks, without having explained to them the available as part of this agreement, I think quid pro quo to the State. I make that the State has to be thankful for that. suggestion. I do not think it would be a bad idea to have it placed on record. The Treasurer gave an outline of what is This agreement, of course, does not take proposed in clause 5. This is probably where nearly the perusal and study that the original the bank is getting some benefit out of t~e agreement did. The original agreement redrafting of the agreement. I say qmte entered into on 22 June, 1920, contained 23 frankly that apart from the purely. publi.c clauses. No doubt there was justification for relations aspect of school bankmg. It more verbiage in those days because it was would have paid the Commonwealth Savmgs a new agreement and because of the nature of Bank to throw this agreement aside so that the financial problems being discussed it could be allowed to invest these funds, between the States and the Commonwealth which are made available to the Government Bank at that time. This agreement is limited at the concessional ra:te of interest, at the to 12 clauses, and even within that number higher rates of int.erest being char~ed by there are only a few that are really important. private banks and msurance compames. As to the point raised by the hon. member That is the position in a nutshell. If we for Baroona concerning clause 4, it would are not to acknowledge that to 'The Courier­ appear that any of the loans made to the Mail" or to some other source, things are 656 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill coming to a pretty sad stage in our pub­ different branches of Government a.::tivities. licising of the relations be·tween the Govern­ I want to know if the Government will con­ ment and the banks. There is no doubt sider allowing the Commonwealth Bank to go in my mind that it would be to the advantage into those departments too. of the Commonwealth Savings Bank to Mr. Aikens: Those boxes are put in there throw this agreement completely aside if it looked at it strictly from the financial point by the private banks? of view and the way in which it could invest Mr. WALSH: Yes. its funds at a higher rate of interest. Mr. Murray: They are put in there for Mr. Chalk: It would be a great advantage. the Commonwealth Savings Bank exclusively. Mr. W ALSH: I ask the Treasurer not to Mr. WALSH: Do not let us get mixed up. misunderstand my attitude on this occasion, The hon. member for Clayfield is referring or to think that it may influence me on some to the business done by the Government. future occasion. If I have bricks to throw. I throw them. Mr. Murray: I am talking about the box system. On this occasion I must give the Govern­ ment credit for exercising some political Mr. W ALSH: Does the hon. member say morality. Having had a partner for 40 that the private banks have no deposit boxes years, and having benefited from the agree­ in the Golden Casket office, the Valley police ment that operated, the Government is not station, police headquarters-- prepared to throw the agreement aside simply because of a little pressure applied by the :\Ir. Cillllk: Your information is pretty private banks or within the Government good. parties .. From the public's point of view, Mr. W ALSH: Yes. After all, the Treasurer 1rrespect1ve of one's politics the Government knows that I have been here long enough not must be given credit for standing up to the to get on my feet and make statements if I pressure. know I can be knocked down . . As to _clause 10 (b) of the schedule, quite frankly m my book it is as wide open as On my left there is a group that has been the Pacific Ocean. It certainly does not trying to convey to the people of Queensland deal with the specific nature of the aid or that the private banks have not been con­ assistance that has to be given by the State sidered by the Government in this way at all. in furthering the interests of the bank. Havino [ say definitely that the Commonwealth committed itself to this principle, if th~ Trading Bank or the Commonwealth Savings Government decides that there are other Bank should have the right to put their avenues in which it can assist the Queensland deposit boxes in every Government depart­ branch of the Commonwealth Savings Bank ment, and as there is no agreement with the to make greater profits, it may be obligated other banks, l say that under clause 10 (b) to do so. And why shouldn't it? After the Government, if it acts morally, must all, i~ has not become a competitior of the ensure that the Commonwealth Bank has the assoc1ated banks, as has been claimed· it exclusive right in this field. has become a partner of the Commonwe~lth Mr. Aikens: The private banks took their Bank, and if there is any avenue at all boxes out. whereby the Government can assist the Com­ monwealth Savings Bank to make greater Mr. W ALSH: Exactly, with the full profits than at present, it will do so with knowledge and on the condition that as the the knowledge that it will share in the profits. Government will benefit from any increased deposits in Lhe savings bank it should assist I do not know if the hon. member for the savings bank. Mt. Coot-tha is opposed to that principle· he d_id not say. However, I should b~ Mr. Chincben: What about service to the surpnsed if he were not agreeable to a individual? Is that not to be considered? transaction, agreement or partnership between th1s. Government and any industry or under­ Mr. W ALSH: Does not the hon. member takmg, apart from the Commonwealth Savings for Mt. Gravatt, who has had wide business Bank, if the Government were to get a experience, concede that any person over 16 sub~tan~ia! "quid" out of it. I should certainly years of age, working in a Government be m 1t If I were acting on behalf of the department, has enough common sense to do Government. his own banking irrespective of Government Let us look at clause I 0 (b) of the schedule. policy on boxes in Government departments? It says- As the hon. member for Burdekin said, they are not conscripted to put their money into "the State will in every possible way any particular bank. But if it is beneficial to aid, assist and further the interests of the the private banks to have this business, the Savings Bank in the conduct of its banking Government, under this clause, is obligated business in the State of Queensland." to see that the private banks no longer enjoy do not think anyone will disagree when that right. As there is no agreement between say that the nature of the aid or assistance the Government and the private banks in is not defined. It has come to my knowledge this matter, the Government is exercising that deposit boxes are already deposited in its right. But if there is now an agreement, Commomvea/rh Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 657 the Government must aid and assist the Com­ but that is all there is to show that the monwealth Savings Bank. I should like the clause gives an exclusive right to the Government to consider this matter par­ Commonwealth Bank to enter State schools. ticularly on the basis that it will benefit. Where is this to stop? What are the I refer now to what I class as an guidelines for interpretation of clause 10 (b)? irresponsible statement by one or two This is what we should know firmly and Government members that the private banks fully. I ask the Treasurer to confer with would in effect withdraw the money they the Minister for Education on what will have invested in Queensland, or would be no happen if the teachers say, "We will no longer interested in investing in Queensland. longer be bankers." The Queensland That is paltry and small. Irrespective of Teachers' Union has already expre-~sed itself politics, we must concede that the private rather strongly on this matter. banks over the period have been identified Mr. O'Donnell: I know: said that and associated with considerable development. yesterday. When I was Treasurer I was always mindful of the fact that there were certain bank Mr. MURRAY: Exactly. School banking managers that the Treasury could contact by the Commonwealth Bank has been pos­ to see if funds were available for a particular sible because of the loyalty and devotion to local authority or semi-governmental body. I duty and the children by public servants remember that the Labour Government had employed by the Department of Education. to amend the law on two occasions because Sir Douglas Forbes breached the law to help Mr. Coburn: We used to have to take local authorities with their finances. So we the money and be responsible for it. are not unmindful of the part the private Mr. MURRA Y: Of cour,e, and that is banks have played. still what happens. Let us suppose that People like the hon. member for Kurilpa teachers say, "We will not carry out banking. and Mr. Prowse should not talk nonsense. It is an out-of-hours duty and we refuse to Mr. Prowse, the research officer for the be bankers as well as milk vendors. We associated banks, addressed Rotary and left are there to teach the children." the impression that the private banks would Mr. Carey: Don't you agree that the have to consider giving no financial assistance Commonwealth Bank, if it has thi5 right, to the State of Queensland. would establish a banking system inside schools and supply its own staff? Mr. MURRA Y (Clayfield) (3.30 p.m.): This whole matter gets worse as it proceeds­ Mr. MURRAY: It is perfectly clear that if there is no question about that-and if ever the teachers said "We will not be bankers," there was justification for supporting the the Commonwealth Savings Bank would be need for another look at this matter, it is hard put to administer the scheme. In other provided by clause 10 (b) of the schedule. words, the cost to the Commonwealth I shall not read it again, as it has already Savings Bank could be such that the State's been read about 15 times. If clause 10 (b) losses would be much greater than any it has means that an exclusive right to school bank­ had in the past or, at least, the profits would ing is given to the Commonwealth Savings be less. That is of concern to us: it is Bank, it means anything at all. It simply important. means that any clause in any Bill purport­ ing to mean any one thing means any other Mr. Wallis-Smith: Would the teachers say thing. Let us be reasonable about it. Here the same thing to the private banks? we ha,ve a clause so wide that it means Mr. MURRA Y: We know perfectly well anything. that the scheme envisaged by us, which is I thank the hon. member for Bundaberg operating so successfully in Western for asking that the schedule be discussed Australia at the moment, does not place any before clause 2 of the Bill. In all of the extra duty on the teachers. It is conducted discussion that took place prdor to the print­ by an officer of one bank for and on behalf ing of the Bill, it was assumed that the clause of all the banks. giving the exclusive right to the Common­ One might well wonder whether, if the wealth Bank would be clearly defined. It was Treasurer had made a very successful deal expected that it would clearly mean what it with, say, the E. S. & A. Bank-it had set was meant to mean, and as it means with its rates of interest 1 per cent. lower-- the few words added a short time ago by the hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha. Mr. Carey: Why contradict him? How can this be cleared up? The Mr. MURRAY: Wait a minute. Treasurer assures us that there is no side If the E. S. & A. Bank had said, "We wiH agreement, and, of course, we accept his do this and do that," and the Treasurer had assurance. There is nothing to define what decided that its proposal was the answer, clause 10 (b) means except negotiations what would the Opposition have said? If in across a table or perhaps an understanding. certain circumstances the E. S. & A. Bank had There may be a letter somewhere in the files entered the bargaining race and won because of the Trea~ury Department, or somewhere it offered an extremely good deal for Queens­ else, that may help to show the intention, land, a deal that in the interests of the State 658 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill we could not ignore, and we entered into an it is thought, some rebellious attitude, and agreement giving it the exclusive right to some attitude of trying to split or break the banking in the State of Queensland, what Government. God forbid! If this has done would be the attitude of the Opposition in nothing else but establish the validity of some this Chamber then? argument that may have emanated from this end of the Chamber-and is anybody going Mr. Mann: We would oppose it very strongly. to say that none of our argument is acceptable over the wide range of it-if illst Mr. MURRAY: What would be the one point of our argument is valid, then it attitude of my colleagues? Because the means that the argument of the Government, Commonwealth Bank is a sacred cow-the to that extent, is pinned down. In that sense people's bank-it must be given an exclusive we serve the public well. right. As hon. members know, because I am sick and tired of hearing these of a number of circumstances it should be recriminations and this abuse heaped on a able to offer preferential treatment, and the few members who feel for the public interest. associated banks refused to enter a bargaining And who will dare state here that I am not race with a semi-governmental institution. I acting in the public interest? That is how I will not prosecute that argument. The point am acting, and I believe that my colleagues is that if this had been round the other way are doing so also. I take a very serious and and the situation had arisen that the E. S. & A. dim view of this abuse. Whenever I feel Bank had offered the best deal, I venture to there are things to be said, and whenever I say that the roof would have been lifted off feel there are actions to be taken, I will say Parliament House if the Treasurer had them and take them in this Chamber, with accepted it. due regard to the notices given to my Leader Mr. Carey: Why are you saying that the and with due regard to ethical procedures, associated banks conduct their business so which have been followed. successfully in Western Australia when you When we talk of democracy and democratic said a few minutes ago that the Common­ systems within parties, democracy is useless wealth Bank could not conduct its business unless we use the machinery of it in a successfully without the assistance of the responsible way. I venture to say that on teachers? Why the difference? Why shouldn't this occasion there has been the responsible the Commonwealth Bank be able to do that? use of the machinery of Parliament. Please let me hear no more of these allegations, Mr. MURRAY: The pooling of resources these inferences and these imputations that by all the banks simply means that one bank we act only in the interests of seeking acts as agent for all the banks. That is publicity. elementary; I will not argue about it with the hon. member. An Opposition Member: They are breaking their hearts. I have mentioned the relevant points. How much further do we go with assist­ Mr. MURRAY: It i·s not worthy for ance to the Commonwealth Savings Bank? hon. members to indulge in that type of If it is not doing well north of Capricorn, recrimination, and I would like to hear no the suggestion might be made, "Let us more of it. proclaim an area north of Capricorn in which Mr. AIKENS (Townsville South) (3.43 private savings banks will not be allowed, or p.m.): I do not think the hon. member for in which private savings-bank activities will cease." Clayfield should be unduly concerned by any recriminations or accusations that are directed Mr. Hanlon: Only the Commonwealth at the little Left Wing of the Liberal Party could do that under the Commonwealth Bank by members of the Labour Party, because Act. It would not be within the power of anybody who knows anything at all about this Government. human nature knows that the most intense hatred springs from envy. The hon. member Mr. MURRA Y: But I say to the hon. and his colleagues are simply receiving the member for Baroona that in many insidious envy of the slaves for the free. And there is ways we can be requested to help. no greater hatred of any group of people This clause in the schedule frightens me, than the envy and the hatred of slaves for quite frankly. I believe it is a very sorry free men. state of affairs that the interpretation of it is Mr. Bennett: Of course, you asked a being left wide open, so that it can flow from question this morning. one set of hands to another, as I said yester­ day, and to other minds subject to other Mr. AIKENS: These men over here are persuasions. That is very important indeed. the champions of democracy, and the hon. I believe it is dangerous. I know it cannot be member is the proclaimed champion of the altered. But, good heavens, who is going to criminal. I have never known him to be interpret it? This is what I ask, and I have ·concerned in any way over the victims of the right to ask. the criminal. Might I say further that a good deal of I am glad that this point has been raised. condemnation has been heaped up to this I came back into the Chamber to raise it little end of this Chamber for some frivolity, myself. The hon. member for Clayfield is Commomvealrh Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 659 concerned at the recriminations and accusa­ Mr. AIKENS: I am not concerned about tions that are emanating from the Labour what might arise in the future. I am wise Party. He has not cleared· up this point; enough to cross streams only when I come to he has merely skimmed over it, as it were. them. I want to know what is happening I intend to try to clear it up. I ask the now. The hon. member for Bundaberg is a Treasurer to declare in this Chamber man whose veracity I hold in high regard, unequivocally just what clause 10 (b) really although I do not always hold his politics in means; just how the State Government pro­ high regard. He assures us that the private poses to aid, assist and further the interests trading banks have already put these deposit of the Commonwealth Savings Bank in the boxes into Government instrumentalities in conduct of its banking business in the State Brisbane. I want to know what is going to of Queensland. What does he propose to do? happen if the Commonwealth Savings Bank We were here all day yesterday and we are says to the Treasurer, as I think it has a right still here-when we will adjourn, of course, to say under clause 10 (b), "Get those private is in the lap of the gods-and we have been trading bank boxes out of the Government told in general terms what it means. We have instrumentalities. Get them out pretty quick had quite a lot of extraneous matter intro­ smart." duced into the debate; we have had a lot of platitudinous ponderosity introduced; we have Mr. Coburn: Who put them there? had quite a lot of prolixity. But we have Mr. AIKENS: I do not know. That is not had in ordinary, simple, understandable something we should be told. words just what the Treasurer and the Government propose to do under clause 10 The Treasurer told us that the Common­ (b) in order to aid, assist and further the wealth Bank would not sign the agreement interests of the Commonwealth Savings Bank. unless clause 10 (b) was included. He went I hope that clause 10 (b) means all that the to the other trading banks and asked them, hon. member for Clayfield is afraid that it "Will you give me the same terms as the means. I hope it does mean that. Commonwealth Bank is prepared to give?" But they said, "No." Apparently we have the We had a very interesting observation from position where the private trading banks, who the hon. member for Bundaberg, who told would not match the offer of the Common­ us that the private trading banks and the wealth Bank in this regard, now find that they private savings banks have already put did not have to match the offer at all, or deposit boxes in the various Government enter into any agreement with the Treasurer instrumentalities and offices in Brisbane. I or the Government, to be entitled to all the have no doubt that they have put them into privileges and concessions, and probably Government buildings and offices in other more, that the Commonwealth Bank will get parts of the State. I spoke yesterday about under this agreement. the possibility of an appeal by the private I want the Treasurer to tell us about this trading banks to an appellate court on the in his closing remarks, if he will. I cannot interpretation of clause 10 (b). Let us force him, of course. I cannot hold him down look at it from the other angle. Suppose the with a foot to his throat or, like a gladiator Commonwealth Savings Bank says to the in the arena, with a dagger at his larynx, Treasurer, as I think it has the right to say saying, 'Tell us, or else!" and, when he does under clause 10 (b), "You take those private tell us, cut his throat just the same. I want savings bank boxes out of the Government him to tell us clearly in simple, understand­ departments. By allowing them to be there, able language just what he proposes to do and by giving the private trading banks an about clause 10 (b) and what concessions he 'open Sesame' into Government departments will give to the Commonwealth Bank. with their savings deposit boxes and all that sort of thing, you are not acting in accord­ We heard quite a lot of blather and ance with clause 10 (b)", what will happen? blarney from the hon. member for Clayfield. I ask the Treasurer to tell us quite honestly I have been on his side for a little while, but and frankly what he would do. now I am going to rip a few pieces of skin off him. I do congratulate him on the stand Mr. Mann: If I were the Treasurer I would he has taken. Being a free man myself I do get them right out. not envy him, and being a free man I do not condemn him or criticise him. If I were not, Mr. AIKENS: If I were the Treasurer I I should probably hate him just as much as would do the same thing. I want to know any slave hates a free man, and that is why whether the present Treasurer will do the the Labour Party hates him. same thing. I want to know whether the Mr. Mann: You ought to get down on your present Treasurer has the same interpretation knees and thank the Labour Party for of clause 10 {b) as apparently the hon. mem­ getting you here, instead of knocking it. ber for Clayfield has. If the Treasurer tells us that he is not going to do that, then, of Mr. AIKENS: The man who got me here course, he has only been misleading us about in the first instance, in 1944, is still sitting the real meaning of clause 10 (b). here beside me-Arthur Coburn. If he had not stood for Mundingburra in the 1944 Mr. Walsh: Not necessarily. You don't election I doubt that I would have made it, know what might arise in the future. but, having made it once, I never lost it 660 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill

and no-one can be sure of being here longer thing. They are happy to do it because they than I am; I will be here as long as I want say, "I am here to teach the children. We to stay here. cannot get the labour to do it." They are happy to do it and do not grumble about Mr. Mann interjected. it. If the Department of Education could Mr. AIKENS: The hon. member for get anyone to do it I am sure it would pay Brisbane will be here only as long as the someone to do it. "Moscow Mob" allow him to be here. They When I had country areas in my electorate decided at the Townsville Convention last I knew school teachers who could not get ye·ar that he is too old and seniie to run for accommodation near their schools. I remem­ the next election, and that goes for poor old ber that on one occasion the parents of the "Horrible Horace", Jim Donald, and a lot pupils bought the teacher a bike which he more of them. rode 7 miles to school and back home over We heard a lot about the fact that the a rough bush road every day, and he was teachers in Queensland State schools have happy to do it. been doing this banking on behalf of the What is all this nonsensical talk about Commonwealth Savings Bank. I understand extraneous duties? Teachers perform in that is quite true. Whether they continue accordance with their concept of loyalty to to do it is a matter entirely for them. If the Department of Education. I would say they should decide through their union that, of all the extraneous duties that the that they no longer intend to do any banking teachers in Queensland perform, the weekly busi'ness for the Commonwealth Savings banking, the small amount of Commonwealth Bank I will be on their side, for I am Savings Bank money that they handle, always on the worker's side. That is where represents probably the smallest and most I differ dramatically from Labour members. inconvenient. I do not shift from side to side; I am always Mr. Pizzey: You said "most inconvenient". on the side of the workers. Mr. Bennett: That is why you always vote Mr. AIKE:'IIS: I mean "the least incon­ for Tory legislation. venient". Mr. AIKENS: Who voted with the Tories Mr. Bennett interjected. yesterday? The hon. member and his dingo Mr. AIKENS: Being an ordinary man, and mob went over and voted with them. If I not one who considers he is anointed by God had been here-- or celestially begotten, as membe·rs of the The CHAIRMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ Labour Party do, I am quite aware of the ber for Townsville South is treating the fact that I make errors now and again. Committee as if it were a vaudeville show. The one I just made is what we call J ask him to continue dealing with the a "lapsus linguae". Hon. members opposite schedule under discussion. would not know what that was; the hon. member for South Brisbane would not know Mr. AIKENS: I will do so. I do all I anyway; he knows nothing about Latin. He possibly can to co-operate, but sometimes the probably thinks "lapsus linguae" is the name Opposition make it impossible. of a Greek wrestler. If the teachers refuse to continue with Do not let us tangle this up with all the the Commonwealth Savings Bank business in extraneous duties, blah blah and guff we State schools I will be on their side because have had from the hon. member for Clay­ they have that right. It is their inalienable field and others. The teachers themselves right to determine the terms of their employ­ will decide whether they will continue with ment, and if they think that banking is out­ school banking and all the other extraneous side the terms of their employment duties they have been doing for years, and they have the right to refuse to are still doing. do it. We have heard a lot of talk To get back to my initial remark, I should about teachers doing extraneous duties, like the Treasurer, when he gets the oppor­ but to suggest that this is the only extraneous tunity when this debate is mercifully draw­ duty they perform is pure and simple bunk. ing to a close, to tell the Committee in If the hon. member for Clayfield knew any­ simple terms, so that even the hon. member thing about the work that the teachers are for South Brisbane with his limited mentality doing in the State schools of Queensland­ can grasp it, exactly what he proposes to and they are doing it willingly in the interests do for the Commonwealth Savings Bank of the children and in the interests of the under clause 10 (b). department, and have done it for donkey's years-he would not mouth suoh nonsense as Mr. SULUVAN (Condamine) (4.56 p.m.): he did when he spoke about their having this I enter the debate because of the strange extra duty thrust upon them. I know of course the debate has taken in the passage teachers in country areas where labour is of this Bill. Possibly the Chamber has never unobtainable who have to clean their schools, been better attended, and hon. members have rake up the yard, and cut and burn the trees. I shown a great deal of interest in this matter. know of teachers in country schools who The Opposition has indicated how much have to play the role of sanitary man, and it is in favour of the measure. This was clean out the toilets and do all that sort of shown yesterday when Opposition members Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 661 voted with the Government. It has not been When the hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha necessary for many Government members to was speaking and dealing so much with prin­ speak in support of the Bill, because we ciples, I asked him by interjection about the decided at our joint party meeting that this principles he adopted yesterday. I join other was the right step to take. We believe members in saying that I do not deny to that the Treasurer did a very good job private members the right to voice their and got the best possible deal for Queens­ opinions and be critical of aspects of Govern­ land. The hon. member for Bundaberg ment policy with which they are not satisfied. mentioned that benefits will accrue financially It is good to be able to do that. When l to the State from the deal the Treasurer asked him where he stood in the moving of obtained. an amendment and the dividing of the House The point whether the associated banks in an endeavour to defeat his Government, or the Commonwealth Bank should have his retort referred to something that I hoped the right to enter the State schools has he had forgotten. He referred to me as trying been argued. As the Treasurer outlined, to "assassinate" him some 12 months ago the associated banks were given every during the passage of the Bill dealing with opportunity to match the offer of the Com­ the freeholding of Crown land. For his sake, monwealth Bank but they could not. That I hoped that he had forgotten about that, is why this legislation was introduced. The because on that occasion we had the spectacle majority of members feel it is unnecessary of seeing him and the hon. member for to speak, because the Treasurer has put the Clayfield 14 times moving and seconding case well. motions and then voting against them. At least yesterday they had the courage to vote The hon. member for Townsville South against their Government, which I do not introduced an interesting point earlier today deny them the right to do, but if they were when he spoke about the banking habits not in favour of something that has been of children. Not every child avails himself agreed to by the majority in the party room of the opportunity to bank at his school. I think they should have walked out of the When I learned that facilities were provided House instead of voting against it. at the school attended by my children I discussed the matter with my wife, and as I join with other members of the Govern­ I banked with the A.N.Z. Bank I chose ment and the Opposition in commending the the savings bank facilities of that bank for Treasurer on the presentation of this measure, my children. It would be interesting to and I believe that, as this is the best deal know the percentage of school children who that Queensland can obtain, we must accept use school-banking facilities. Whether they it. do or not, I believe that when children leave school they are guided by their parents. Mr. CHINCHEN (Mt. Gravatt) (4.3 p.m.): My colleague the hon. member for Albert I rise to seek clarification on a couple of mentioned that children generally use the clauses. I refer first of all to clause 1. It is banking instrumentality which their parents well recognised that we are living in times have used over the years. In the industry that are changing at a very swift tempo. For with which I am associated, and no doubt this reason, I feel that the Treasurer and his in others, a father quite often acts as officers must have carried out investigations guarantor for his son, and takes him to and arranged projections to show what clause his bank. To members on the Government I will mean to the State in the years to come­ side who during the last couple of days have Changing times and the entry of the private expressed concern over this matter, I say banks to the savings field must have a great that I do not think there is any real need effect on what "seventy per centum of the for worry. I do not believe that this is a net quarterly increase in the amount of means of educating children to "Bank Com­ Savings Bank depositors' balances in Queens­ monwealth", or that they will continue to land" will mean in terms of money. do so for the rest of their lives. Without a doubt the Treasurer would not The hon. member for Townsville So'llth to have concluded an agreement of this magni­ some extent came to grips with the hon. tude without looking into this matter and, as member for Clayfield over the possibility of the Committee is now being asked to ratify teachers refusing to carry out banking it, I am wondering if the Treasurer can responsibilities. Remembering what has hap­ indicate what this will mean in the years to pened in the last day or two, I am wondering come. We know what it has meant to us in whether the hon. member for Clayfield is years gone by; it is important to know what trying to bring in some other issue to stir up it will mean in the future, because it is from strife among teachers. I say that with all this clause that any financial advantage to respect to him. If he is, I would be very con­ the State will be derived. cerned about it. It is also from the 70 per cent. of the net Mr. Walsh: He ought to be ashamed of quarterly increase in depositors' funds that himself if he is doing that. 2/7ths can be used for local government purposes, housing, and so on. Again, this is Mr. SULLIVAN: What has happened in important. the last couple of days seems to indicate that It could be said, of course, that it may give to me. If it is so, it is something that we information that is confidential to the bank, should all treat with concern. but I think we could at least be given 662 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill a lead. Is it thought that the volume of would have continued the agreement. How­ money that has been made available to the ever, the bank laid down the conditions and State ove-r the last three, four, or five the bank's representative·s were the better years will continue? Is it thought that negotiators. When Sir Thomas Hiley went it will increase or decrease, and roughly to to Sydney, it was too late; when Mr. Chalk what extent? I think my request is reason­ went to Sydney, it was too late. The point able, because information such as that would I make is that it was only in the first hours enable hon. members to estimate just what of negotiation that the bank said, "We insist the agreement may mean to the State in on this condition," and it is now included in te-rms of money. In my opinion, some clause 10 (b). information must be made available for Mr. Hanlon: He acknowledges that it was the consideration of hon. members at this an existing benefit that the bank enjoyed time. when negotiations began. The other point relates to clause 10 (b) of Mr. CHINCHEN: Quite so, but nobody the agreement. I am in a little bit of a else entered this field. The point is that quandary because I do not know what the the bank gained not only \~hat the Treasurer clause means, and I should like to know, told us it wanted and what it laid down as as would the hon. member for Townsville a condition from the beginning, the sole South, the hon. member for Clayfield, and right of entry to State school banking; it various other hon. members, what the gained much more. It has gained this: the Treasurer thinks it really means. I read it Government will in every possible way assist, this way: that the State will in every possible aid and further the interests of the Common­ way aid, assist and further the interests of the wealth Savings Bank. That is much more than Commonwealth Savings Bank. It "will" do the bank asks for-or does it ask fDr this? that. It means that the State must jump at We have not been told. the behest of the Commonwealth Savings Bank. That is the only way I can interpret it. Mr. Chalk: I have tried to restrain myself; It does not say "if you agree"; it says "you but I have explained it. will". It seems very strange to me that the Mr. CHll~CHEN: It is impossible for a State should be placed in the position of being member to be in the Chamber all the time, told by the Commonwealth Savings Bank and I apologise if the Treasurer has explained what it will do. it while I was not here. But this information Mr. Aikens: The Treasurer said that the is not available to me, and that is why I ask. bank would not sign the agreement till that If it has been explained, please do not explain was included in it. it again; I will read it in "Hansard". I am amazed at the width, the depth and Mr. CHINCHEN: Again we come back to the breadth of this clause. I do not know the recent negotiations. I do not think there how it is going to be interpreted, or by whom. is any financial problem involved. The l can only presume that the bank will be problem is that the State, in the first few granted the right of sole access to State hours of negotiations, apparently allowed the school banking. But does it now negotiate Commonwealth Bank to pick its own with the Minister for Education, who is ground on which to negotiate. The Treasurer legally responsible for the schools? Does it said, "From the beginning, t·he Commonwealth negotiate with him, and is he not allowed to Savings Bank laid down as a condition ..." negotiate with the private banks? I do not The bank got in first and laid down the know what happens from here on. I do not conditions. What would have happened if know the reason for this clause. I am scared Sir Thomas Hiley or his officers had got of this, to be perfectly honest, because the in first and laid down conditions? What if bank can make demands of the Government, they had said, "We demand the condition and I do not see how the Government can that all banks should enter State schools."? refuse them. If the bank wants some I am inclined to think that the agreement assistance it will say, "Here we are; we want would be exactly the same as it is today, some assistance." with t:he exception that clause 10 (b) would be Mr. Aikens: I hope you are right. deleted. The hon. member for Bundaberg has Mr. CHINCHEN: I hope I am wrong. changed his ground a little. He said yester­ Many people throughout Australia will be day, by interjection, in regard to the savings worried about this. What I am looking for bank continuing this agreement, 'They are at this stage is some indication of the pro­ morally obliged to carry on with the agree­ jections, the programmed figures, and the ment." Today he said, "There is no need thoughts that may flow from clause 1 in years for them to do anything about the agreement." ahead. Are they to be greater or lesser? I cannot imagine the Commonwealth Bank Are they to grow or curve or swing upwards allowing the Treasurer to return to Queens­ as we get more money? land and announce, "Because we have The other thing I am looking for is a allowed the private trading banks to enter clear and definite explanation of clause 10 State schools, the Commonwealth Bank is (b) and what it covers; what the intention to charge the State £1,000,000 more a year is and what the bank's power is; and how we in interest." That would be the worst as a State Government must apply ourselves publicity the bank could have. It certainly towards assisting the bank. Commonwealth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreemel1t Bill 663

Mr. MURRAY (Clayfield) (4.13 p.m.): Condamine, who referred to what happened After hearing the hon. member for Conda­ in another debate and said that he thought mine raise the matter that he did, I must say I should forget it for my own good. I that one cannot hope to win. I am castigated thought it was rather presumptuous of the for moving amendments and not voting for hon. member. This debate is on a matter of them, and now I am castigated for moving principle arising over this Bill, which deals an amendment and doing the opposite. My with an arrangement between the Govern­ friend from Condamine reminds me that it ment and the Commonwealth Savings Bank. was on another Bill, but in that case it was The hon. member's interjection was not on definitely opposing part of a Bill. This is a the basis of that principle at all, but on a case of asking for a delay for a further personal issue. I am one who takes a note investigation; that is all. The inference here of history because I believe that history has is, "You are not doing right whatever you a habit of repeating itself. We saw that do; therefore, do not move amendments." happen today. I anticipated such action That is the inference, and I do not accept sooner or later, and am prepared to deal this. I will move amendments according to appropriately with him on any such my own sense of responsibility, however occasion. much I may be held in contempt by other hon. members. I wish to make a point for the sake of clarification, not only to hon. members but I must also say that I have been accused also to the Press in the gallery. This morn­ of trying to stir up some trouble with respect ing's Press referred to the "rebels" voting to the effect that clause 10 (b) will have on against the Government. The fact is that six teachers. The hon. member for Barcoo. members of the Liberal Party voted for an the hon. member for Burdekin and the hon. amendment in this Chamber. What would member for Toowoomba East were school have been the position if the Treasurer for teachers, and they, w,ith the Minister for one reason or another had accepted the Education, were he here, would know full amendment? We would have been voting well that this is certainly not a case of with the Government. These misleading stirring up trouble. After all, the teachers statements are fed to the public~- have been restrained by the president of the Queensland Teachers' Union from taking Oppm;ition Members interjected. action in these matters. They have com­ plained for a long time. I have asked the The CHAIRMAN: Order! Treasurer what would happen if they decided to take action. What sort of problems would Mr. LICKISS: I can take as much as they the Commonwealth Savings Bank have in the can give. administration of this clause with the inter­ I refer particularly to the condemnation pretation now given to it by the Govern­ that has been levelled at me in relation to my ment? It would have trouble. No doubt comments on the schedule to the agreement. it would have to seek other means. Would If ever there was a good reason for another it employ other Government servants? What look at this Bill, particularly as my friend would the Government do? Surely school the hon. member for Clayfield has said, it children would not be denied the oppor­ is to be found in hon. members' critical tunity that does e~ist. I am sure that is view of clause 10 (b) of the schedule and not the intention of anybody. what it is supposed to mean on the one Mr. Bennett: Do you think your Govern­ hand and what it actually means on the ment is capable of handling the teachers? other, which has been the very basis of our argument from the inception of the debate Mr. MURRAY: I think my Government to the present time. I believe it is worth is capable of handling anything very well while taking notice of what we have said and thoroughly. I think my Government is a bout this clause. a little optimistic~- I believe I should put the facts on record. Mr. Walsh: You are not Premier yet. So far as the hon. member for Condamine Mr. MURRAY: The Government I belom: is concerned, I have a very good memory. to. This is my Government. I believe it i~ I believe in the repetition of history, and a little optimistic in its interpretation of I wanted to make that point. this clause as to its limitations. This again is the narrow front. We have never diverted Mr. WALSH (Bundaberg) (4.21 p.m.): It from it. appears to me that the hon. members for I look forward with very great interest Mt. Coot-tha, Mt. Gravatt and Clayfield are to my Leader's giving the clarification asked concerned only with trying to belittle the for by the hon. member for Townsville activities of the Commonwealth Savings South. No doubt this will be thorough and Bank. I listened to them very carefully, and full, and will set my mind completely at in each case they asked many questions. It rest. is true that all the matters they envisage could arise, but one would expect them to Mr. LICKISS (Mt. Coot-tha) (4.18 p.m.): give some answers to the questions they ask. I am sorry I have to enter the debate again However, they simply asked the questions at this stage, but I am prompted to do so and said, "Will this happen? Will that by the remarks of the hon. member for happen?", and left it at that. 664 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill

The hon. member for Clayfield is over­ covered basically the same line of argument looking the protection given by the Liberal as we had earlier in the second-reading Government in the Federal sphere to Ansett­ debate. It is true that we are discussing the A.N.A. in competition with T.A.A., and schedule to this Bill. seeks to imply that the Commonwealth Savings Bank would not be operating favour­ The hon. member for Baroona was the ably. That is almost a parallel case to the first to speak in the Committee stage. May present one. I say that I nmmally regard his contributions as reasonably constructive, but on this When the hon. member for Clayfield was occasion the red herrings he drew across the speaking I got the document styled "Banking trail were nothing more than humbug. When and Currency" and looked up some statistics. it is all boiled down, he wanted to know I found that there are 13 savings banks in who was responsible for conducting these Australia, eight of which operate in Queens­ negotiations. The Government of the State land. There were 706 branches of all banks is the responsible body. Those who were in Queensland as at 30 June, J 965, and, of responsible for negotiating this agreement that number, Commonwealth Savings Bank were either Ministers of the Crown or top­ branches numbered 144. The number of ranking public servants under the direction savings bank agencies in Queensland as at of Ministers of the Crown. 30 June, 1965, was 2,353 and the Common­ wealth Savings Bank operated 1,558 of The hon. member for Baroona wanted to them. It is interesting to note that there is know the benefits that would accrue, and no break-down of school-banking agencies, c-laimed that in my negotiations I was trying but there was a total of 1,678 school-banking to assist the associated banks. I pointed out agencies in Queensland at that date. As I earlier that anything I did to get any of the said, there is no break-down to show what terms of this agreement changed was done banks are operating them, but I take it that to get something which was or would be in the Commonwealth Savings Bank does. the best interests of Queensland, and it was Mr. Smith: Why should they all belong to for me to decide whether something should the Commonwealth? be given away in one direction to gain some­ thing in another. I believe that my approach Mr. W ALSH: The denominational schools resulted in a greater benefit than that origin­ would be included, but the hon. member will ally offered to Sir Thomas Hiley. But when realise that they represent only a small per­ I could not improve on the situation I was centage of the total. quite happy to take the best I could get, and as far as I am concerned that best was better We have heard much argument about the than the best that was offered by the "colossal" sum of money that the Common­ associated banks. wealth Savings Bank is chasing. As at 30 June, 1965, there were, $2,007,000 in Mr. Aikens: Tell us what you are going to depositors' accounts, and the average per do for the Commonwealth Bank? depositor's account was $13.16. What a terrific amount to be arguing about! Mr. CHALK: I shall in a moment. The hon. member is not catching his plane yet, Coming back to the 1,678 school bank is he? agencies, there are 152,000 operative accounts. Hon. members will agree that the I say to the hon. member for Baroona total of the deposits in school savings bank that what I did, I did believing that the out­ accounts is not a substantial amount to come would be better. Because I could not divide among eight trading banks in budge the Commonwealth Bank in that Queensland. direction, I was quite happy to go back to my Government and point out that this was Mr. Murray: It is not a profitable venture. the best deal that could be obtained. Mr. W ALSH: Of course it is, and it is The hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha took obvious from the number of agencies the clause 10 and said, first of all, that what Commonwealth Bank has throughout the concerned him was that portion of it that length and breadth of Queensland that it is reads, "The State undertakes and agrees ..." giving service in remote parts of Queensland He then said that he wanted to know exactly where the private banks are not. what we had agreed to. I do not know how many times I have to say in this Mr. Murray: It is purely a sprat to catch a Chamber exactly what I believe the agree­ mackerel. ment means. On each occasion on which Mr. W ALSH: Yes, and the mackerel is a I have risen I have tried to say that the big one in this case. If the Treasurer is to only thing that the Commonwealth Bank get a big slice of the mackerel, all well and has sought in this matter is the sole right good. of entry to State schools during the period of the agreement. I said earlier that we (Time expired.) had agreed to nothing more and nothing less; Hon. G. W. W. CHALK (Lockyer­ I said we had not been asked for anything Treasurer) (4.26 p.m.): I do not think there more or anything less. is much to which I need reply. What we Mr. Aikens: What are the obligations under have listened to for the last hour or so has this clause? Commomveulth Savings Bank of [21 SEPTEMBER] Australia Agreement Bill 665

Mr. CHALK: I shall deal with the point particularly to the position of teachers, raised by the hon. member for Townsville and possibly that is the only point in his South when I come to it. I have told remarks to which l should reply. hon. members repeatedly the basis of the I am not unmindful of the assistance negotiations that took place between Sir given by State school teachers in the field Thomas Hiley and me, on behalf of the State, of school banking, and I believe that the and high executive officers of the bank. majority of them-1 have many friends who Ml'. Duggan: In what respect is the final are teachers-although they may not agreement that you reached with the bank really like doing this class of work, which an improvement on what Sir Thomas Hiley could be regarded as being outside their obtained? normal responsibilitie-s, are at all times keen to do what they can to assist in educating M1·. CHALK: I have already castigated or otherwise helping children. This is one a member of my party for being out of way in which I think they can assist. I do the Chamber and not hearing what I said not think for a moment that they are attempt­ previously. However, I know that the ing to train children to use one form of Leader of the Opposition has certain respon­ banking, although it is true that, because of sibilities. What I said earlier in my remarks vhe agreement, one bank has exclusive rights. was that there was no variation between What teachers are trying to do is implant the agreement that Sir Thomas Hiley signed in the minds of children the need for some originally and the agreement -signed by me. type of weekly or monthly saving, and I l did say that I endeavoured to get some believe that parents also are keen to do this. change in it, and it was over that that I remind hon. members that there is no the hon. member for Baroona took me to binding obligation on parents to tell Johnny task. that he must bank at the school. The The hon. member for Bundaberg made Government has not tied that into the Bill. the suggestion, with which I do not disagree, What it has tied into the Bill is the that it might be in the interests of the State provision of a facility for school banking. to issue some type of precis or publication If parents wish children to take advantage of dealing with what the agreement means to it, the facility will be there. Queensland. I am not saying that I shall I think that teachers will continue the do that, but I do say to those who have practice that has existed for a number of spoken again·st the Bill and claimed that years. However, if they do not, if some­ it has caused great consternation among vhing that has gone on in this Chamber in either their supporters or certain other people the past week or fortnight engenders an that during the whole of the passage of the uprising of some sort among teachers, the Bill I have not received one letter protesting Commonwealth Bank is well aware of the against it. It is true that an apnroach problem it faces. The question arose in was made to me by the associated banks, discussions, and the bank knows that some and it is equally true that a letter was other basis of arrangement will have to be written by the president or secretary of entered into if the teachers will not handle a branch of the Liberal Party somewhere school banking business. Let me say to hon. in Brisbane who is also a member or manager members that t·hat problem will be met when of one of the associated banks. it arises. I believe that the bank, because of Dnring the luncheon recess I asked the its insistence on this condition, will find some Premier if he had received any similar com­ way of continuing to provide the facility. It munications. because I thought that the is commonly known, I think, from the union's House should be told of any such protests. point of view, that a contribution is made The Premier informed me that he had for providing banking facilities. That is a received one letter. Is there anything matter outside my province; it is a matter for different between me, as Treasurer, or the the Queensland Teachers' Union to consider. Premier of the State, and other members of Mr. Aikens: It is a matter between the Parliament. if people want to run to members teachers and the bank. with complaints? After all, if you want to achieve anything, you go to the butcher, not Mr. CHALK: That is quite true. the block. The butcher i-s the one to go to if you have a complaint. As far as I Mr. O'Donnell: It has nothing to do with am concerned, no approaches have been the Bill. made to me on this. Mr. CHALK: The hon. member for Mr. Walsh: That was bad organisation on Townsville South wants to know what the the part of the rebels. obligations are under this clause. Mr. CHALK: Probably I will receive some Mr. Aikens: In precise terms. now. However, by the time I receive them Mr. CHALK: I will be as precise as I it will be too late. The State has entered possibly can. As far as I am concerned, into this arrangement; it has entered into it firstly, the Commonwealth Savings Bank as a partner. If bene·fits accrue from it, we shall have the sole right to conduct school expect to get the advantage of those benefits. banking within State schools during the The hon. member for Clayfield has spoken period of this agreement. Secondly, no other -on the schedule at least twice. He referred obligations are entered into by the State. I 666 Commonwealth Savings Bank of [ASSEMBLY] Australia Agreement Bill have asked officers of the bank what this crystal ball and look into the future. I have clause means other than the point I faith in Queensland, and I know what this mentioned. Those officers have indicated to agreement has meant in the past because I me that they have no other particular point have the facts and figures relating to it. I in mind. It is true that if they wanted to know that this agreement is written so that, discuss any other problems, or if we wanted generally speaking, the State will receive a to discuss any other problems or any other better deal than it received in the past. matters, there is always the right under this Certain things have been written into this agreement to have the matter discussed. agreement which were not in the previous Clause 12 sets out that there can be a review. agreement but which will be for the greater I think the hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha benefit of the State. raised the point that this would be a review and a decision arrived at only between the I believe that as the years go by we will general manager for the time being of the see in Queensland a great improvement in Commonwealth Savings Bank and the the position of the Commonwealth Savings Treasurer for the time being of the State of Bank and all other banks. After all, we have Queensland. Does the Treasurer of the State an increasing population; we are developing bind the Government? It is right and proper, industry in this State; we are building up first of all, from the Government's point of our export industries. Is it not obvious that view, that the Treasurer negotiate. This there will be a greater volume of money in agreement says that those negotiations must this State, that more people will be have the approval of the Governor in employed and that more wages will be paid? Council. The Governor in Council comprises Is it therefore not logical to assume that Cabinet and His Excellency the Governor. there will be more bank accounts? Is it not This is not something that will be decided logical to assume that a percentage of that by two men; it is something that will be increased business will go to the Common­ decided by the Government, through wealth Savings Bank? Is it not right to Cabinet. assume that this will mean greater benefit to that bank? I would not attempt to tell Mr. LICKISS: I rise to a p_oint of order the Committee what it will mean in round because I could not get m by inter­ figures, because I would not know. What jection what I want to say. The Treasurer I have said so far are things which I know will remember that I referred also to the to be facts, and of which I have a thorough approval of the Governor in Council by knowledge. Order in Council. Mr. Walsh: What about these deposit Mr. CHALK: The hon. member says he boxes in Government departments? also included the Executive Council, and I accept his assurance. But that does not clear up any further the point that I am making, Mr. CHALK: I understand that there are which is that this is not a two-man show. a number of deposit boxes of other banks in some Government departments. I tried Mr. Hanlon: It would have to be tabled, to find the background to that. I believe wouldn't it? that this was agreed to at a time when Mr. CHALK: It receives the approval of another Minister was in charge of a certain the Governor in Council. department. For my part, this has never been challenged; the Commonwealth Savings Mr. Walsh: The Order in Council would. Bank has never challenged it. Whether it Mr. CHALK: The Order in Council knew about it, I do not know, but it would. The wording is "Governor in Council certainly knows now. by Order in Council". The Order in Council would be tabled and it could be debated in I say in all sincerity that I do not believe this Chamber. As to the general discussion, that the Commonwealth Bank will say that it is not something just between two people; just because something is happening we have therefore, I believe that we have a basis of to do this or that. What the Commonwealth protection if the Commonwealth Bank wants Bank asked for was school banking, and we to interpret this clause in any other way. have given it that. If it asks for more, that will be a matter for negotiation and future I believe that possibly the wording of the discussion. I do not deny that the bank has clause is better for the State than it would be driven a fairly hard bargain with me. If if we wrote in the dozen words suggested by it wants to drive a further bargain with those hon. members who put forward the me I will be just as tough and hard as I amendment yesterday. A certain amount of have been up to date. We are partners, and latitude is allowed by the words, and during for my part I believe that the State can, all of my discussions and the discussions of and will, benefit from what we have done. my officers no other point was raised. I am making the issue as clear as I possibly can I do not think I can add any more. I and as clear as it is essential to at present. know the debate has been long. I think The hon. member for Mt. Coot-tha asked it was the hon. member for Clayfield who me what the position was with regard to said that he was sick and tired of this clause 1 of the schedule. All I can say is business. From my point of view I, too, that I do not propose to try to gaze into some am just a little sick and tired of it. Questions [22 SEPTEMBER] Questions 667

The Government has endeavoured to get The best deal it can for Queensland. If we do that, surely we are acting as good Queens­ landers and as a good Government should. Are we not doing something for the better­ ment of the S:tate generally? I hope it will not be necessary for me to rise again. The Committee has been told all I know. I hope that now we will be able to proceed with the agreement and get the benefits that are to be derived from it. If we get those benefits I will ensure that the money that flows into Queensland is spent wisely and well by the Government in the interests of the people of this State. Schedule, as read, agreed to. Clauses 2 and 3, as read, agreed to. Bill reported, without amendment. The House adjourned at 4.52 p.m.