Carlucci, Frank
Total Page：16
File Type：pdf, Size：1020Kb
The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project AMBASSADOR FRANK CHARLES CARLUCCI III Interviewed by: Charles Stuart Kennedy Initial interview date: April 1, 1997 Copyright 2000 A ST TABLE OF CONTENTS (Continuation of inter iew) State Department - Bureau of Near East Affairs 1956-1957 Suez Crisis ,ohannesburg. South Africa - Commercial Officer 1957-1959 African National Congress En ironment Foreign Ser ice Institute 0FSI1 - French 2anguage Training 1959-1960 2eopold ille. Congo - Political Officer 1960-1962 Independence Patrice 2umumba Riots Flight to Stanley ille Rescuing Belgians E acuation 6atanga secession CIA Russian assistance Adoula 6asa ubu Carlucci attac7ed Allison Palmer 8N operation 9obutu House arrest Stanley ille Congolese go ernment State Department - Congo Des7 Officer 1962-1963 State team 1 Congressional interest 8N in ol ement (Stanley ille E ent) State Department - Personnel Officer 1963 ;anzibar - First Secretary General 1964-1965 En ironment Communist bloc presence NASA trac7ing station 6arume Go ernment contacts Tanzania merger Press 2umumba 8ni ersity PNGed >Punishment? State Department - FSI - Italian 2anguage Training 1965 Rio de ,aneiro. Brazil - Portuguese 2anguage Training 1965 Rio de ,aneiro. Brazil - Executi e Officer 1965-196A 9ilitary go ernment 9AAG mission TOPSB mission Aid program suspended Cernon (Dic7) Dalters Staff Dissent Tuthill Economic problems Brasilia Politics 8.S. objecti es Democracy Anti-Americanism CIA Office of Economic Opportunity - Director 196A-1970 2egal Ser ices Program California Rural 2egal Assistance Programs Friends and foes >Haircut? suits 2 Dhite House support ,ohn 9itchell Office of 9anagement and Budget 1970-1972 George Shultz Office of 9inority Business Enterprise Go ernment departments - assessment Federal budget Budget and Impoundment Act of 1974 Defense budget Supplemental Security Income Program President NixonFs iews Deinberger and Shultz Re enue sharing Nixon Dhite House firing Department of Health. Education. and Delfare 1973-1974 SSI Program Ci il Rights Act De Funis case Discrimination at uni ersities National Health Insurance Program Head Start - Georgia H9Os Dilbur 9ills Datergate Entitlements President Ford Nursing home industry Portugal - Ambassador 1975-197A Central Intelligence Agency 0CIA1 - Deputy Director 197A-19A1 So iets State cooperation Israeli cooperation French Africa Embassy-CIA relations Stansfield Turner Pri ate Business 19A1-19A6 Sears Dorld Trade Operations The Dhite House - National Security Ad isor 19A6-19A7 3 Rey7ja i7 meeting Oli er North Firings Scowcroft report Don Regan Arms control Colin Powell Howard Ba7er So iet 8nion discussion I9F treaty Personnel Gorbache and summit So iet negotiations Contras Cice President George Bush ,ames Ba7er NAFTA Deinberger Secretary of Defense 19A7-19A9 SDI deployment Budget problems Chairman of ,oint Chiefs of Staff Crowe So iet 8nion dismemberment Congressional support Base closings Procurement CICENT Schwarz7opf 6uwaiti reflagging operation Iran na y Iran airbus Persian Gulf China So iet military >Ill Dind? procurement scandal INTERVIEW "Note: This is a continuation of an interview that began December 31, 1996.* Q: Today, why don,t we start off by concentrating on the African e-perience. I have you going to Johannesburg in about the end of 1907. 4 CAR28CCI: ThatHs correct. yes. Q: 1ou had been in post management. 2here had that been. I,m just trying to figure out how you got yourself into Africa. CAR28CCI: That was the Bureau of Near Eastern - what was then Near East African Affairs. They were combined. I was slightly abo e a file cler7. The most dramatic assignment I had in those days was to 7eep trac7 of the dependents that were being e acuated at the time of the Suez Crisis. Q: This would be October 1906. CAR28CCI: ThatHs right. Since that particular bureau encompassed Africa. when the time came for assignments. they chose Africa for me-e en though I spo7e Spanish. Q: Could you give me a little feel about what was the attitude towards Africa then. This was just at the beginning of the discovery of Africa by the foreign service but had it penetrated down to where you were. 2as there a sense of e-citement or what was the feeling. CAR28CCI: There was a sense that Africa was becoming a major player on the world political scene. that the cold war was extending its reach into Africa and we needed to pay more attention to it. I was in ol ed peripherally in helping to organize the trip by then Cice President Nixon to Africa which underscored the commitment of the administration to Africa. So it wasnHt a full scale crisis. They were mighty concerned about the pace of change in Africa. Q: Did you feel a sense of disappointment by going to Johannesburg which was sort of one of the few old African posts and not 5uyana or Nigeria or one of the places that was beginning to6. CAR28CCI: Dell I wasnHt an African expert and I hoped to go to 2atin America. But I really wasnHt disappointed in going to South Africa. I thought it was an exciting place and a pretty place. I studied some of the history and became interested in it. I became personally interested in the e olution of apartheid and while I was a commercial officer in essentially an economic and consulate post- ,ohannesburg - I undertoo7 on my own initiati e to go to a number of ANC 0African National Congress1 meetings. Q: Now was this a legitimate group at that point. CAR28CCI: They were allowed to meet. There was sur eillance on me when I went to the meetings. And after I had gone to a certain number of them. the South African Go ernment complained to our ambassador. Ambassador Byroade. at the time about my acti ities. So although I wasnHt doing anything illegal. they 5 thought it was suspect acti ity. Q: 2hat was the situation as you saw it in 1907 in South Africa. CAR28CCI: I saw it. happily erroneously. as a looming clash between the blac7 population and the white population. Dhen I left South Africa. I left with a certain sense of despair because it was ery difficult to see how their problems could be wor7ed out. I thin7 the world owes a great word of than7s to the leadership in South Africa for the way in which they ha e so far sol ed an extraordinarily difficult problem. Q: Now I was in Africa in INR "8ureau of Intelligence and Research* in 1960 and more or less I thin9 our feeling was there was going to be a night of the long 9nives at some point. CAR28CCI: That was my feeling. Q: I don,t want to let Johannesburg go. Let,s tal9 a bit about it. 2hat were you getting out of the ANC meetings. 2hat was your impression of these. CAR28CCI: I got a sense of what their politics were. how militant they were. Fran7ly. I felt they were less militant than theyHd been described. I got to 7now some of the splinter groups. I was the first person. for example. to tal7 to Robert Sobu7we. who founded the Pan Africanist Congress. He later died. But I got acIuainted with the mo ement. which. interestingly. nobody in Pretoria had been able to do. Our embassy was constrained from the attending the meetings. The meetings were in ,ohannesburg. So I established a relationship. a personal relationship. with some of the political officers in Pretoria and reported to them. I wrote a number of political - what in those days were airgrams you may recall- political airgrams on these meetings on the ANC. They were well recei ed in Dashington and I thin7 were basically responsible for my subseIuent assignment to the Congo as a political officer. Q: 2hat was the attitude towards your going out and developing these ties. Let,s start at the consul general level. CAR28CCI: The consul general. General Arthur Beach. didnHt ta7e a deep interest. But he ne er bloc7ed what I wrote and had no problem with me doing it as long as I didnHt get into any difficulty. The embassy at first. I thin7. was a bit s7eptical but then tended to encourage me as long as I had time for my basic duties. my commercial duties. which I did. I remember I wrote the Basic Annual Industries Report for South Africa which was fa orably recei ed by the Department of Commerce. De had a ery able local employee in ,ohannesburg named Gideon 8ys. who was able to contribute enormously. He and I wor7ed together almost as eIuals on the 6 Annual Industry Report. The report recei ed high mar7s from Dashington. Q: 2ell, this is towards the end of Eisenhower administration and our own segregation was coming under increasing attac9 and we,d had schools becoming desegregated but certainly segregation was the rule of thumb in the American south. 2ere you getting any reflections from this either from your bosses or from the South Africans who were loo9ing at what we were doing. CAR28CCI: No. The guidance that I had was that apartheid was wrong. we didnHt fa or it. And we were certainly in those days much less acti ist in opposing that 7ind of poor human rights policy. But it was clear that we did not fa or it. Dhen IHd see lines that said Europeans only. I was freIuently tempted to get into the other line and say I was not a European. I certainly found the segregation distasteful. And I must say I found a number of South Africans who felt the same way. Q: How long had apartheid been sort of the rule there before you arrived in ,07. CAR28CCI: Oh. since right after Dorld Dar II. following the ,an Smuts go ernment.