CANADA House of Commons Debates VOLUME 145 Ï NUMBER 129 Ï 3rd SESSION Ï 40th PARLIAMENT OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD) Friday, February 11, 2011 Speaker: The Honourable Peter Milliken CONTENTS (Table of Contents appears at back of this issue.) 8051 HOUSE OF COMMONS Friday, February 11, 2011 The House met at 10 a.m. I think it is important that we walk through what has happened here. There were requests at the finance committee for two types of Prayers information. This goes back to November 17, 2010. I will quote from the committee minutes at that point and from the report issued by the committee and presented to the House the first week of Ï (1000) February. [English] On November 17, the committee reported that: PRIVILEGE The committee also orders that the Government of Canada provide the committee STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE with electronic copies of the following: Five-year projections of total corporate Mr. Joe Comartin (Windsor—Tecumseh, NDP): Mr. Speaker, profits before taxes and effective corporate tax rates (2010-11 to 2014-15); as you are aware, we gave notice that the NDP will be speaking this The response from the government, I have to say from discussing morning regarding the privilege motion that was brought forward by this with some of the members of the committee, was a bit the member for Kings—Hants I believe on Monday of this week. surprising. It was an immediate verbal response at that time by members of the committee. I am not even sure that the government At the outset, it is troubling that we are having this debate on this leadership was involved in this. motion, given the historical ruling you made— The Speaker: The member knows we are not having a debate on Subsequently, there was a response from the government as the motion. The motion has not been allowed yet. follows: Projections of corporate profits before taxes and effective corporate income tax We are on a point of order as to whether or not there is a question rates are a Cabinet confidence. As such, we are not in a position to provide these of privilege to be raised here. I think that is what the hon. member is series to the Committee. making submissions on. I know he would not want to debate a That was the first one. motion since one has not been allowed at this point. Mr. Joe Comartin: Mr. Speaker, I thank you for that correction. We know that the cost of the government's prime legislation, if I can use that generic term, has been an ongoing debate in the House, The request for the finding of privilege that was brought by the in various committees of the House, and in the general public. member for Kings—Hants is troubling in that he had to do this on behalf of both the members of the finance committee, at least the Again, it is crucial that we have this information in order to opposition members of the finance committee, and all of us in the engage in the debate and the discussion around those issues, not only House. I say that in light of your ruling 11 months ago; a historical in the House but in the country as a whole. ruling by any standards in this House. Therefore, the committee asked the government, in effect, ordered Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, and I do not want you to feel that I am the government, to produce information with regard to a series of buttering you up, but the reality is that the ruling was also a historical crime bills. That is set out in the report from the finance committee. ruling in any number of other legislatures that use the Westminster The attempt on the part of the committee is obviously to make system of representation in Parliament. It was acknowledged as such informed decisions on legislation that is before the House and to in a number of other legislatures. share that information with other committees. There is a whole series Therefore, it is very troubling, given the nature of the request for of bills that the committee set out in the order for information. the finding of privilege or breach of privilege at that time on the Ï (1005) issue of the Afghani detainee issue, that we are back here less than a year later on essentially the same issue. I will not quote all of the bills because it is in the report, but I will quote the information that members on the finance committee The Conservative government of the day is claiming cabinet wanted with regard to those pieces of legislation before the House or confidence and refusing to divulge information to the finance those which have already been passed. They wanted to know: committee members that is clearly necessary for them to do their job. —the incremental cost estimates broken down by Capital, Operations & That is the essence of the privilege request. Maintenance and Other categories; 8052 COMMONS DEBATES February 11, 2011 Privilege For a government that touts its fiscal prudence, it is interesting to Just last week our critic on public safety had some material leaked note that it is unwilling to give that information to other members of to him showing how many more employees were going to be hired the House in order for them to make decisions based on facts and by Corrections Canada. The government has that information. good economic planning. Economic planning or public policy Ï (1010) cannot be done without the facts. They wanted the costs. The whole issue of crime legislation has been a centre point for The committee wanted to know: the government. It has been a centre point for the Conservative Party —the baseline departmental funding requirement excluding the impacts of the before it was government. However, when we try to ascertain the bills and Acts, broken down by Capital, Operations and Maintenance and Other categories; facts as to what this will cost, how many additional prisoners we will have in custody, we are denied that information. Members also wanted to know: —the total departmental Annual Reference Level (ARL), including all quasi- Again, this is not a peripheral issue here. It is a very basic one that statutory and non-quasi-statutory items, including Capital, Operations and is very much in public debate not only in the House but across the Maintenance and Other categories, including the incremental cost estimates; country. That debate has been both in this House and in committee. It has been narrowed down to a very narrow scope because we Finally, the finance committee asked for: cannot get access to this information. —detailed cost accounting, analysis and projections, including assumptions, for each of the bills and Acts, conducted in accordance with the Treasury Board With regard to its history, as I have previously stated, we have had Guide to costing. the refusal from the government. Of course, it is not the first time it Finance committee members are asking for information that we has done this, as I have said earlier, because of your ruling. It is just know is available because it is required under Treasury Board vitally important that it is not allowed to get away with it. criteria. We know from past practice that it is available and it has Last night, as I was preparing some notes on this, I was thinking been submitted to ministers. In most cases, these bills would have about how important information and knowledge is. We hear the also been in front of cabinet. cliché that knowledge is power. That is really what this is about. It is The government's response to that was: a very fundamental part of our democracy and, in particular, of the parliamentary system. We can go back hundreds of years and I will The issue of whether there are any costs associated with the implementation of any of the Government's Justice bills is a matter of Cabinet confidence and, as such, be making some reference to that. the Government is not in a position to provide such information or documents. Historically, over centuries, the theory and principle of the divine By claiming cabinet confidence, the government absolutely right of kings was undermined once people realized that because one refused to provide the information to the committee. was born to a certain family, it did not give that person divine powers to govern better than a person who was born a peasant. This allowed As I said earlier, the report containing this information is before democracy to flourish. the House, before you, Mr. Speaker, and is the basis on which the request for finding a breach of privilege was brought before the Also, throughout the Renaissance period in particular, if we look House. at advancements such as the development of printing and the ability to communicate information and knowledge, we see a huge increase To digress for a moment, I would like to make this important in the rate at which democracy came to the fore. point. Both of these issues, the estimates of what the savings are going to be to the private sector by the tax cuts and what the Governments, particularly in Europe but also true in other areas of projection for profits for those corporations is going to be, are crucial the world, restrained the development and sharing of scientific fact to the country. This may be the defining issue in the next election. and information as they feared it would undermine their control. This is not a periphery area that we are trying to get information As a species, and I will move into Star Trek fairly soon if I on.