The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project HERBERT G. HAGERTY Interviewed by: Charles Stuart Kennedy Initial interview date: July 20, 2001 Copyright 2003 A ST TABLE OF CONTENTS Background Born and raised in New Jersey Columbia College (Columbia University)) University of Pennsylvania United States Navy Counter Intelligence Agency (CIA)) South Asia analyst 19,0.19,5 India.China 0ar U.S. military aid to India Afghanistan on.aligned movement 2ntered the Foreign Service in 19,5 State Department) Operations Center) India desk officer 19,5.19,3 4ashmir India.Pakistan war Ambassador 5albraith ew Delhi, India) Political Officer 19,3.1930 Ambassador Chester Bowles Indira 5andhi Congress Party President Ni7on visit Peace Corps Parliament Diplomatic 8issions Congressional interest 2mbassies New Delhi and Islamabad rivalry 9Untouchables: issue Oslo, Norway) Political Officer 1930.1933 2conomy 1 ATO Scandinavians 2nvironment 5overnment State Department) (P8) Political 8ilitary Affairs 1933.1935 U.S. military base negotiations ATO The French Soviet Union Diego 5arcia Vietnam uclear powered naval ships ational 0ar College 1935.193, London, 2ngland) Political Advisor to CI CUS AV2UR 193,.1933 5eneral Al Haig International cooperation ATO 5reeks and Turks U.S. nuclear powered vessels Soviets Islamabad, Pakistan) Political Counselor 1933.1981 U.S. 8ilitary relations Aia al.HaB 2mbassy attacked and destroyed Rioting Voluntary evacuations Students Author, 2mbassies Under Siege Russians invade Afghanistan Arms India U.S. Pakistan relations President Carter policies 2thnic and religious sects Afghan refugees U.S. media corps Colombo, Sri Lanka) Deputy Chief of 8ission 1981.198C Tamils Sinhalese U.S. interests 2 2nvironment 8aldives India State Department) Director, IndiaDAfghanDPakistan Affairs 198C.1983 Afghanistan 8ujahideen 2conomic issues U voting Islamic Conference OrganiEation President Aia al.HaB Center for the study of International Studies (CSIS) Relations with the 0hite House and NSC Afghanistan.Russian war U.S. weapons supplies State Department) I R. Office of Intelligence Liaison 1983.1989 ational Intelligence 8edal CIA Intelligence Reporting in the U.S. 5overnment Retirement . 1989 INTERVIEW ": This is an interview with Herbert G. Hagerty. This is being done of the behalf of the Association of Diplomatic Studies and Training and today is July 20, 2001. )ou go by Herb, is that right* HA52RTF: ThatHs right. ": O,ay. -ell, Herb could you start at the beginning. Could you tell me when and where you were born and something about your family* HA52RTF: Sure. I was born in Orange, New Jersey on February 23, 1932, in the last year of the Hoover administration. 8y parents both grew up in Hoboken, New Jersey, where one grandfather had been a policeman, the other, an employee of the DLI0 Railroad. At the time, I was born we were living in 2ast Orange, New Jersey. 8y fatherHs family had previously settled somewhere in the Port Jervis, New Fork area. His father was native.born David Hagerty, who died when my father was si7. ": But your father/s family came from, was it Ireland* 3 HA52RTF: It would have been Ireland, and as IHve found since, the spelling with one 9g: suggests a more northern rather than southern origin (Belfast vice Cork). I was raised a Catholic because my father was converted to Catholicism when his widowed mother remarried while he was Buite young. 8y mother was born in New Fork City but was raised in Hoboken, a town of heavy Irish and 5erman immigration. She was raised by her motherHs sister, a Corbett, one of nine and first generation Irish, whose husband, 5eorge Baker, a stone mason become a policeman, was of first generation 5erman e7traction. 8y mother was a high school graduate and very proud of it, in the class of 1923. 8y father, unfortunately, was not, having been sent out to work by his family after seven years of schooling. He was first a butcherJs apprentice, and then he worked as a messenger on the docks on the Hoboken waterfront. He eventually attended a vocational school for at least part of a year and became thereafter an automobile mechanic. At the time I was born, he was employed as an automobile mechanic and was also the manager of gas station in 2ast Orange. ": The year 1032 was not e1actly the greatest time to have another mouth. HA52RTF: 8y parents were married in 1930, and I was their first.born. And yes it wasnHt a great time for having kids. 8y father considered himself lucky to have a job at $20 a week and with one.day off a month. In my early years, we moved around a lot from rental flat to rental flat, almost always in the same neighborhood in 2ast Orange. 0e actually lived on every one of the numbered streets in that part of town at one time or another. Always looking for an apparently perfect flat, my 8other usually found each to be imperfect after a short spell, that is, until we moved to another part of town as I was about to enter third grade. There we stayed, for reasons I will never know, until I finished high school. In 1933, prior to that move, my father left the gas station business in favor of a better job, working for Public Service 2lectric and 5as in New Jersey first in the turbine room, then as a boiler mechanic, in an electric generating station where his mechanical aptitude was put to use. He eventually retired many years later as a Chief Boiler Repairman, akin in many ways to a senior Chief Petty Officer in the Navy. I came to know that work environment myself because for two summers, while I was in college, I worked shift work in the turbine room of a neighboring generating station in 4earny, N.J. ": Any brothers or sisters* HA52RTF: Two brothers, Dennis born thirty months after me and Richard, ten years later .. after 0orld 0ar II. Sadly, Dennis came down with diabetes as a child and lost his sight in his 30s. But despite this, he lived a remarkably full and active life in New Jersey into his early si7ties. He and his wife Lucy had two children, a daughter (now a career avy JA5 officer) and a son (an engineer). 8y brother Richard and his wife Pam also live in New Jersey) he has worked for years for VeriEon. ": That/s the telephone company. C HA52RTF: Fes, thatHs right, thatHs right. He manages large corporate accounts and is responsible for providing information systems for them. ": As you recall it, what was life li,e at home* )our mother was wor,ing at home and raised you* Is that what she did* HA52RTF: ThatJs right) she remained at home until Richard was a teenager, when she put to use her former clerical and administrative skills to work for 2sse7 County, N.J. ": -as there much in the way in sort of tal, and all that around the dinner table* HA52RTF: Fes, I recall that weekday dinners at the kitchen table were at 5:30 p.m., when my father came home from work and midday on Sundays, after church. 0hen after. school jobs kept me later, my dinner plate would be kept on a warmer on the shove. IHm always amused when I hear Cal Ripkin comment that the big change in his life when he retires from baseball will be that he will have 9dinner at 5:30 p.m.: ": Cal Rip,in is a famous ballpar, baseball player. HA52RTF: ThatHs right, but like me, from a blue.collar background. In any event, dinner was a daily time for catching up. And there were times when the meals were pretty lean, especially 0ednesdays, the day before my DadHs payday. ": -as there macaroni* HA52RTF: Rarely macaroni and cheese) more likely frankfurters cut up with potatoes and canned tomatoes, or simply hamburgers. 8y mother would be horrified if she knew that I said this, but I can recall even just bread and gravy. But we always had fresh milk, and, thanks to my 5randpa Baker, we kids always had oranges for juice. I recall that we were happy and considered ourselves lucky, and we knew people who were worse off. " And your father had a steady job, and money was scarce until after -orld -ar II. HA52RTF: Fes, he had a secure job, having moved to steady day work from round.the. clock shift.work) and yes, money was tight. ": In those years, too. -hat about, where did you go to school* )ou were brought up Catholic I ta,e it4 your mother was Catholic* HA52RTF: Fes, we were Catholics but not believers in Catholic education. I went to public school. ": That/s interesting. Did you get any feel for why they felt that way* 5 HA52RTF: 0ell, first it cost money to attend a Catholic school, more than we could afford at the time. But besides, my mother had gone to public school and believed in public education. 8y father may have attended a parochial elementary school, but I donHt know if he had a strong feeling either way. But, like lots of things, it was her choice. ": In elementary school, do you recall any teachers or sub3ects that particularly interested you* HA52RTF: I had an early fascination with foreign countries but certainly not because of family interest. The earliest newspaper stories I can remember had to do with the war then going on in China, following the Japanese invasion of 1933. I can remember telling my 8om of my concern about what we would do if Japanese soldiers ever came down our street in 2ast Orange. ": There was not a big probability of that.