EXPERTENINTERVIEW

An expert interview about Public Sociology with Prof. Dr. Michael Burawoy

SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: You once wrote ments – the idea of the critique of capita- that most sociologists were driven by their lism was in the air. It was something that passion for social justice when they decided was part of common sense, at least among 22 to study sociology. Can you tell us what large sections of the student population. your motivation was to study sociology? Sociology took off in that period as a cri- tique of modernity. I was very influenced BURAWOY: I went to the university to by that, went to Africa after graduating in study mathematics but was not really search of student revolts and stayed there good at it – and you have to be really good for four years. But it was my earlier trips if you want to be a professional mathema- to different places in the long Cambridge tician in the future. It was a very exciting vacations, to Africa, to India, and before period in history (1965 to 1968) and at that to the United States, that were really this time (1965) I visited the United Sta- the things that shaped my interest in so- tes for six months. For somebody who ciology. comes from this little island, England, And yes, I think this question of soci- (from Manchester) and goes to New York al justice was propelling so many of the it was a dramatic revelation to me that a movements during the 1960s and even world like that could exist. This journey if you were not necessarily active in one, was very transformative for me. It was a the ideas were contagious. In Africa it time of the beginning of the anti-war mo- was a honeymoon period soon after many vement, the civil rights movement – very countries had achieved their indepen- exciting! dence. Societies had only recently been I went back to university and did mathe- decolonized and there were fascinating matics but I was always interested in what and lively debates about openings and was going on in the world and at that time possibilities of what could be – debates – because this was an era of student move- that would subsequently be closed down.

Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN EXPERTENINTERVIEW

Prof. Dr. Michael Burawoy is Professor at the University of California, Berkeley with re- search interests in labor, methodology and ca- pitalism. He has done participant observation on industrial workplaces in Zambia, the United States, Hungary and Russia. Professor Bura- woy was president of the American Sociologi- cal Association in 2004 and of the Internatio-

Foto: Ana Villarreal Ana Foto: nal Sociological Association from 2010 – 2014.

SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: And you studied SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: Has there been a sociology in… time while you studied sociology where you experienced something like a disillusion- BURAWOY: …Zambia. I was a young ma- ment of sociology or of the academics? 23 thematician who went to South Africa in 1968, became a journalist for six months BURAWOY: Yes. You might say so. In and then I moved to Zambia. I think I was hindsight my studies of the Zambian cop- already determined to be a sociologist, per industry were a great story. The cop- but England had no serious sociology, per industry, these multinational corpora- particularly not in places like Cambridge tions, provided 95 percent of the export where I was. It was a time when sociology revenue of Zambia at that time. I studied was being discovered in England in the how they were reproducing what is called so-called red brick universities and, es- the colour-bar, according to which blacks pecially, in the newly created universities. do not give any order to whites. It is ‘white Oxford and Cambridge remained as stuffy over black’. They managed to promote as ever. At the University of Zambia, there black Zambians, but at the same time re- was a lively and emerging social anthro- tained the colour-bar by promoting whites pology department. This is where I did into positions or taking a department that my M.A. in sociology studying student was dominated by whites, pushing it aside movements, but I also conducted a side and making it entirely black. There were project, which became my most impor- all sorts of organizational manipulations tant work of those years: the study of the that retained the colour-bar. That was my copper industry, then owned and run by study and it was a complicated thing to get two multi-national corporations. I wan- it published. I was basically a spy there; I ted to study how they were responding to did not tell anybody what I was doing. But Zambia’s independence in 1964. in the end my research became public and

SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? EXPERTENINTERVIEW

that was my initiation to public sociology. famous), and then I worked most close- ly with a very inspiring political scien- I think there was a good public discussion tist, Adam Przeworski who also went on of my report. People took the problem to global recognition. At that time I was very seriously – but the mining compa- lucky they both had time for a young, nies decided to use this Marxist mono- rebellious graduate student. But that was graph to discipline their managers. So I the scene of sociology in Chicago in 1972. realized, well, you have no control over At times I was ready to quit this expensi- the knowledge you produce and it is so ve venture. In Zambia it had been very often power that determines the way re- different; I was deeply embedded in soci- search findings will be deployed and that ety in Zambia and at seminars with peo- was a disillusioning moment. ple all doing field research, talking to one By that time I had already migrated to another about their different researches, Chicago and there I became, indeed, very contributing to each other’s projects be- 24 disillusioned. I went there because I was cause we were all studying Zambia. It had looking for the source of the development been very productive and exciting. I had sociology that was disseminated around no idea how special it was until I went to the world in the name of modernization Chicago. theory. It was a conservative view of the transformation in Africa and I wanted to SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: You wrote in discover its source. I thought it needed to 2004 that sociology was in its ‘best shape’. be deeply criticized, which meant I nee- It would be interesting to take a look back. ded to know it. So I went to the US. But Has it changed? Is it still in its ‘best shape’? when I arrived in Chicago, sociologists were no longer interested in Africa – there BURAWOY: What I was trying to say was one person who had studied ‘Ethio- there was that sociology was growing. pia’ in his past. But basically the study of The American Sociological Associati- new nations was over. I was too late and on had its biggest meeting ever (in San the department was conservative and nar- Francisco). It was a very vital meeting. I row-minded, deeply professional. had money from the Ford Foundation to Going to graduate school in the United bring in scholars from all over the world States was a real shock because there I was to talk about sociology in different places. treated like a child and that too was very As President of the ASA I had two pro- disillusioning. I was just very lucky that I jects: one was public sociology and the had a ‘protector’ in the department, Wil- other was to ‘provincialize’ the US, to de- liam Julius Wilson (an African-American monstrate how US sociology was not the sociologist who has since become very universal project it claimed to be, but a

Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN EXPERTENINTERVIEW

„I wanted to discover its source. I thought it needed to be deeply criticized, which meant I needed to know it.“

product of US history, its place in the been moving towards a rational choice world, its university system, etc. For the modelling for some time, trying to imitate first, I brought in world renowned figu- economics. Sociology (with anthropology res such as Fernando Henrique Cardoso, and human geography) is on its own (in a Mary Robinson, Arundhati Roy, and Paul sense) but it can play a vital critical role. Krugman to stimulate discussion about sociology’s wider role in society. The au- SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: You said that the dience of over 5,000 people was very re- university is a public good and it is impor- ceptive to these critical ideas as this was tant for sociology to defend that idea by en- 25 2004 – just after the US government had gaging with publics, becoming accountable invaded Iraq. Sociologists were moving to to publics. What did you mean by that? the left, producing a more vital sociology (or so I thought) – but the world around BURAWOY: Public universities have be- was not in such a good shape. We were in come ever more privatized as state fun- a bubble in San Francisco. That is what I ding has diminished and universities have was saying. responded by seeking new sources of re- Since then, sociology has remained very venue. Now universities look ever more strong in the United States – for reasons like corporations and the role of sociology that are not altogether clear; but one re- is to recognize what is happening, to be ason is how the higher education is or- reflective about what is happening. I think ganized in the US with lots of students sociology is a discipline that is very reflec- taking sociology courses. That is an im- tive about itself and its context of produc- portant factor. In the US undergraduates tion. But we cannot return to the old era have a much wider choice of courses to of the public university fully funded by the pursue than an undergraduate and socio- state although Germany seems to be han- logy is a gateway to many different pro- ging on to that model – so far. But in the fessions. In other countries sociology is US and many other countries it is gone! not in such a great shape, so looked at it In the time of the Berkeley Free Speech globally it is a different story. It is still a Movement in 1964 nobody thought about critical discipline compared to economics that education was going to be privatized. and political science. Political science has They were all thinking about ‘oh, this is a

SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? EXPERTENINTERVIEW

big bureaucratic machine’, ‘mass universi- BURAWOY: First, Public sociology is ta- ty’. Clark Kerr said it was a multi-univer- king sociology beyond the academy, so- sity and the students said ‘no, it is a mass ciologists talking to non-sociologists. It university’. That was the critique then. turns out to be quite difficult because the And of course Clark Kerr – at that time sociological perspective as practiced in the enemy – had the vision, a ‘master plan’ the academy is inherently at odds with which was to think higher education is the lived experience of those outside the accessible to all for free. That plan is uto- academy. That is the nature of professio- pian now, gone out the window and our nal sociology. Sociology unveils the truth students are paying huge fees now! The that is not obvious to the people they are trajectory is pretty negative but we cannot studying. So that is the public sociology go back to the period of the ‘master plan’ – a conversation between sociologists and – that is gone. publics. What we have to rethink is what a public What does it mean for public sociology to 26 university means today. I think it means be a form of pedagogy? I think there are that a university has to be accountable four types of teaching in sociology. First to publics. It is not just that the univer- of all, there is what I call professional so- sity has to be accessible at all – and it has ciology: there is professional teaching in become more accessible, that is definitely which a body of knowledge; be it sociolo- true – but it has to be accountable. There gy or economics or whatever, that students has to be an engagement with the world should know. So you have a textbook, you beyond. It cannot survive as an ivory tow- have formal courses and students learn er anymore. If it tries it will be taken over the foundational knowledge. That is pro- by corporations, so it has got to make al- fessional sociology. And that is fine, it is liances in civil society. We cannot go back important if there is to be a discipline. – we have to go forward. This is public so- Second, there is what I call teaching that ciology taken to a different level, thinking corresponds to policy sociology: that is of the university as an institution that is sociology as on the behest of a client. This accountable to and engages with publics. is vocational education. In the sociology It is what I call embedded autonomy. departments, for example, criminology is becoming more important, training peo- SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: You have said, ple to become criminologists. And now, that from the point of view of faculty, stu- in the US sociology departments have dents are our first public. Could you define created a vocational sub-discipline that briefly what public sociology is and what gives out certificates. That is teaching as you meant by students being the „first pu- policy sociology. And then there is cri- blic”? tical sociology – a form of teaching that

Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN EXPERTENINTERVIEW

broadly learning to think, read and write own experience. That is the first dialogue. in a sophisticated way. Philosophy is often the prototype of this sort of thinking, but, In the second dialogue – taking place of course, it happens in sociology, too. at the same time as the first – students And finally, there is public sociology. should be talking to one another. If you have a class of 200 students, that is a chal- So what is teaching as public sociology? lenge. You can divide the class up into It is treating students not as empty ves- groups of three or four and let them talk sels into which you pour knowledge but it to one another about their high school means recognizing their lived experience experience. They will be very surprised coming from many different sectors of about how different schools can be! There society and working with that lived ex- is a third dialogue in which those students perience, elaborating it, so students un- take what they learn in the course into derstand who they are in the wider social actual schools; perhaps into the school context. At my department in Berkeley where they came from and talk to the stu- 27 there are many second generation immi- dents about the ideas they have learned grants and they come from very different in the sociology course, about schooling communities and when they come into and about education. This is the third di- contact with one another and with so- alogue between sociology students and ciology they can better learn who they high school students. This three level dia- are. So, for example, one can teach an in- logue would be an example of teaching as troductory course on sociology with the public sociology. theme of the “school.” Normally, students have just graduated from high school and SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: But how to think they are ‘cat’s pyjamas’, the ‘crème do public sociology precisely? Not only de la crème’. They have a very vivid me- teaching as public sociology, but learning mory of their high school experience. So, how to do it as students? you start telling them that there are ‘high schools’ and there are ‘high schools’. And BURAWOY: Alright, so now you are as- you introduce them to data – there is a king not about teaching as ‘public so- massive amount of data now about high ciology’, but teaching public sociology. schools, the economic background of Of course the third dialogue, above, is a high schools, of teachers, of grade point form of public sociology undertaken by averages and so on and so forth. One can students. When these undergraduates go then introduce them to the wonderful into the schools, that is already a form of ethnographies of schooling which you public sociology. But you are talking in a can discuss with them in relation to their much broader sense and public sociology

SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? Neuerscheinungen bei transcript EXPERTENINTERVIEW

Robert Gugutzer Soziologie des Körpers is indeed very difficult to teach. For ex- sional sociology. So you have to write two (5., vollst. überarb. Aufl.) ample, I am an ethnographer, I teach par- papers: one for them, one for us.’ So it is ticipant observation. There are no rules, not easy. Körpersoziologie auf dem aktuellsten Stand: Die Neuauflage weist die gesell- there are sorts of text books but they are I cannot emphasize this enough that pu- schaftliche Relevanz des menschlichen Körpers nach und zeigt, inwiefern der Körper useless. You can only learn it from practi- blic sociology has to be done collectively. sowohl Produkt als auch Produzent von Gesellschaft ist. ce. I have a seminar of ten, fifteen students People need to be involved in the world – now we are talking about PhD students but having an institutional basis is very – who are doing projects of ethnographic important. The actual details, frustrations Februar 2015, 208 Seiten, kart., 14,99 E, ISBN 978-3-8376-2584-4 E-Book: 20,99 €, ISBN 978-3-8394-2584-8 kind. I send them into the community or and dilemmas of public sociology are best I choose the community and they wri- dealt with in a collective context. I do not Mona Motakef te field notes, they all talk to each other think there are actual rules to do public Prekarisierung about it, it is a practicum. sociology. I know this is not very satisfac- I have done field work for many years so tory but it is the best I can do in an inter- Was ist prekär und wen betrifft Prekarisierung? Diese Einführung bietet einen Überblick über die Vielfalt der Ansätze und Diagnosen zu Prekarisierung. Unerlässlich I have an idea how to direct it but this ta- view like this. 29 für Studium und Lehre. cit knowledge is not easy to communicate. There are no simple rules. Of course in SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: That is fine, that seminar on participant observation thank you for the answer. there are people who think that they are When students decide to do public sociolo- going to be public sociologists when they gy and they want to change something, the März 2015, 184 Seiten, kart., 14,99 E, ISBN 978-3-8376-2566-0 E-Book: 12,99 €, ISBN 978-3-8394-2566-4 enter the field. Ethnography is already subject of public sociology is obviously ‘the Gabriele Winker interacting with communities and some social’. But do we then theoretically need to of these students think of themselves as re-define ‘the social’? Care Revolution bringing sociology to the community. Schritte in eine solidarische Gesellschaft This will be a two-way relationship, they BURAWOY: Yes, in some ways. Think hope, and they are going to be accounta- about Max Weber, basically he was a great Schritte in eine solidarische Gesellschaft, die nicht mehr Profitmaximierung, son- dern menschliche Bedürfnisse und insbesondere die Sorge umeinander ins Zentrum ble to the community. I say ‘Okay, you are public sociologist. He had no name for it, stellt. going to be accountable to the community but he was a public sociologist! His prob- but do not forget twice a week you are co- lem was that he could not theorize it be- März 2015, 208 Seiten, kart., 11,99 E, ISBN 978-3-8376-3040-4 ming back to the seminar and you are go- cause he had no concept of civil society. E-Book: 10,99 €, ISBN 978-3-8394-3040-8 ing to be accountable to us as academics’. So with him we have a clear example of Uwe Becker And there you see the tension. They do why you have to reformulate the meaning Die Inklusionslüge not realize it in the beginning but very of ‘the social’ to understand the possibili- quickly they learn that there is a tension ties of public sociology. In fact, you need Behinderung im flexiblen Kapitalismus between the two sides – the academic and to have a notion of a civil society and Diese Streitschrift entmystifiziert das »heilige Projekt« der Inklusion. Es inspiziert the public. And of course in the end I say you need to have a notion of the public kenntnisreich die »Innenräume« der Gesellschaft und bilanziert ernüchternd deren ‘Look, if you want to do public sociology, sphere. That is one thing you need. Max Inklusionskompetenz. fine. But I want you to also do the profes- Weber had a very dismissive view of the April 2015, 208 Seiten, kart., 19,99 E, ISBN 978-3-8376-3056-5 E-Book: 17,99 €, ISBN 978-3-8394-3056-9 www.transcript-verlag.de SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie EXPERTENINTERVIEW

dominated classes. He talked about them there a new potential for sociology now? as subject to irrational passions, easily manipulated; he talked about them as an BURAWOY: Potential, yes. The economists inarticulate mass. That is not the notion survived 2008 very nicely and thanks to of a public that we are working with here. that it is interesting to look at the econo- As public sociologists we believe that the- mics profession and their movement from re is somebody to dialogue out there who macro to micro. I mean, economists are is in some sense capable of rationality and deeply embedded in the reproduction of capable of having a discussion, very diffe- the very conditions that led to the financi- rent from Weber’s view of the “demos”. So al crisis. And now they are not just in eco- again, you have to re-define what is un- nomics departments, they are in business derstood as ‘the social’. schools, too, and they are actually shaping US and even some European Sociology our economy, giving it an ideology. You in the 1950s and 60s, following in the know, a crisis of capitalism is often good 30 footsteps of Weber and Durkheim had for capitalism and in this case good for a similarly dismissive view on the lower economists because we have got an eco- classes. The social movements of the nomic problem and sociologists are not 1960s transformed our understanding the people to whom one turns to solve an of civil society, public sphere and of the economic problem. The economists first dominated as articulate but subjugated. created the “object” called the economy It is possible to enter into a dialogue with and then monopolized knowledge about lay publics and they form rational social it. If only we could do that with the con- movements. So yes, I think the meaning cept of “society”! There is some public of the social requires a reformulation of shaming and discrediting as a result of the the social and I think we are already do- great recession but I think economics is ing this through our self-conscious enga- as powerful as before. However, there are gement with publics. The conference we some interesting developments: Thomas have just attended here in Jena was full of Piketty, a French economist, has written such reformulations. the book Capital in the Twenty-First Cen- tury, an extraordinary analysis of two cen- SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: There was a turies of changes in patterns of inequality. time, maybe in the 1990s, when society was A collection of data nobody has ever seen explained mostly by economic narratives before. The book compared two centuries and after 2008 – the financial crisis – it of data from countries of advanced capita- was obvious that economy was not the only lism, arguing that there was a brief period science that can explain social phenomena. of redistribution of diminishing inequali- Does this mark the rise of sociology and is ty between 1920 and 1970 but since the

Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN EXPERTENINTERVIEW

1970s inequality has taken off again and it but that is okay, we will join them. If they is not going to stop, or so he says. want to come over to our side, that is okay And why is it not going to reverse its- although it might threaten our existence! elf? Because the dominant class actually Anyway, I do not think that they were invests in its own wealth and there is fundamentally discredited by 2008 which nothing going to stop them. He propo- has, indeed, been a real opportunity for ses a tax on wealth. I mean, where is that sociology. The book of Klaus Dörre, Hart- going to come from? Where is the poli- mut Rosa and Stephan Lessenich offers tical pressure for taxing the rich – well, us a sociological approach to the crisis perhaps in parts of Europe but in most of capitalism. And they have made ma- of the world, not a chance. jor efforts in the direction of Piketty is not a sociologist, publicizing their views, you he does not study social mo- might call it an experiment vements, he does not know „I cannot in public sociology. about the state, he cannot emphasize this 31 grasp how there could be a enough that SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: In sustained movement against public socio- “For Public Sociology” you the 1 percent. logy has to be talk about facing the ‘public done collec- arena’. Is there someone who But, here we have an econo- rules the public arena or can mist who is fundamentally tively.“ we see the public arena as so- questioning neoclassical mething we address or select? economics, focussing on in- equality as something that would deepen BURAWOY: Haha! This is where the pro- to such a degree as to become very de- blem begins – what is a ‘public’? We have structive. You might say, in his eyes, ca- to think about re-defining the term ‘pub- pitalism has the potential to destroy itself lic’, sociologists have limited ideas as to and everything else. Such an argument what a public is! There is little theoriza- is a turn-around for economists! So I tion of the concept. We need a theory of think he has potential for changing eco- publics that recognizes for example the nomics. And then you have Nobel Prize power inequalities operating in the pub- winners such as Joseph Stiglitz, Amartya lic sphere, so the problem, for example, Sen, Paul Krugman who are all very criti- is that sociologists have to compete with cal of the direction of market economies. more prestigious disciplines like econo- And if economists increasingly focus on mics and political science. We have to inequality then they look more and more compete with media monopolies that ob- like sociologists. They steal our terrain fuscate truths in a very effective manner.

SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? EXPERTENINTERVIEW

Look at the story of climate change; it is partment published their first article in amazing how some media obfuscate the the Berkeley Journal when they were stu- truth agreed to by scientists. And there is dents. So it is an amazing collection of ar- competition from social media. If we do ticles over some sixty years. In the 1980s, not transform our modes of communica- sociology graduate students thought that tion we will be squeezed out of existence. an article in the Berkeley Journal of Socio- logy was not going to get them a job – the We cannot be naïve as public sociologists job market was contracting and compe- that we are entering a level playing fields tition stiffening. Students had to become and all we have to do is find our public and more professional. The BJS had been a talk and everything will change – no way! journal of critical sociology that critiqued It is impossible, first of all because publics professional sociology but was losing its will resist what we have to say and, if they impetus. Students tried to revamp the do not, we are probably not doing our job journal – bringing big names to write for 32 properly. We are revealing things they do it, having conferences to attract papers, not necessarily like to hear, for example, develop thematic issues. But in the end the constraints under which they opera- it just did not work. It continued but not te. And secondly, we are competing with with energy. a very powerful ideological apparatus that So last year graduate students decided to is antithetical to the foundations of so- revamp the whole thing and so now it is ciology. So we had better work together probably similar to your magazine. It is because we cannot be public sociologists still called the Berkeley Journal of Sociolo- as isolated individuals. We really have to gy but it has become a magazine for public think collectively about how we can expo- sociology. Basically, they are looking glo- se and engage the public sphere and that bally for people, sociologists for the most is not that easy. part, writing on pressing public issues in different places. It is published online and SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: We as Soziolo- thus has become a very different project. giemagazin try to give sociology a broader It is not going to build their careers; they audience. Is there something similar in the do this out of their commitment to ques- US? tions of social justice. I think it is very important to develop BURAWOY: There are a number of such such projects. The international Sociolo- organs. At Berkeley, where I teach, there gical Association has its own magazine is the Berkeley Journal of Sociology. It star- that I edit, called Global Dialogue which ted in the 1950s and many of the famous comes out four times a year in 15 langu- sociologists who graduated from the de- ages. I cannot believe it but it really does.

Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie? SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN EXPERTENINTERVIEW

I work with teams of young sociologists capitalism does not have to be the only all over the world who translate the artic- game in town. And there are such alterna- les, also drawn from all over the world. I tives, if only we would see them. Take the think we have to build a dense presence originally Latin American idea of partici- on the internet. You may want to talk to patory budgeting where the citizens in a the students at Berkeley about your jour- municipality partake in direct democracy nal? They would be very interested in tal- to decide what to do with their budget. In king to you. Europe there are ideas of a universal in- come grant which would enable everyone SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: Of course! to survive without a job! Capitalism as we Last question: What would be your dream? know it would not survive such a policy What would you like to see for example at intervention, depending on how big was sociological cocktail parties? What would the basic grant! Wikipedia is another in- you like to see sociologists do or talk about? teresting example of what my friend Erik Wright calls real utopias – collective self- 33 BURAWOY: I think it is very important organization which if generalized could to think about alternative worlds. Af- pose challenges to capitalism, expanding ter the 2008 crisis some people thought the realm of freedom. there would be a re-structuring in capi- talism but no, the wave of marketization What is important is not to ‘dream’ of that began in the 1970s for the most part alternatives but to start with concrete continues. The crisis was exploited by fi- and actually existing institutions. That nancial capital to consolidate rather than would be a good public sociology, to start undermine its power. It is important to from these examples and then examine understand how capital is able to exploit the conditions for their dissemination? the crises it creates. So in these circum- That is what we could do as sociologists. stances it seems very important to deve- A cocktail party with people discussing lop alternative imaginations of what could their favourite real utopias – that would be, because the capitalist world of today be a real utopia in itself! has an unprecedented capacity to make us believe that it cannot be otherwise. SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN: Thank you very much, Michael Burawoy! Sociology has to rediscover its moral foun- dations and build alternatives on their BURAWOY: Thank you! basis. I would hope that the sociology of tomorrow would dig around for different Das Interview wurde geführt von ways of doing things, ways that show that Markus Rudolfi, Mitglied der Redaktion.

SOZIOLOGIEMAGAZIN Soziologie, Reflexion, Gesellschaft – was soll Soziologie?