Fifth Session· Thirty-FifthLegislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

(Hansard)

Publishedunder the authorityof The Honourable DenisC. Rocan Speaker

Vol. XLIII No. 36A • 1:30 p.m., Monday, May 30, 1994

ISSN OS42-S492 MANITOBALEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY Thirty-FifthLegislature

Members,C oostitueacles aadPoUtic:al AtftUation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY ASHI'ON, Steve Thompson NDP BARRE'IT, Becky Wellington NDP CARSTAIRS, Sharon River Heights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK,Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose PC DACQUAY, Louise SeineRiver PC DERKACH,Leananl, Hon. Roblin-Russell PC DEWAR, G!egmy Selkilk NDP DO.ER, Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James,Hon. Arthur-Virden PC DRIEDGER,Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. Riel PC EDWARDS, Paul St. James Liberal ENNS, Hany, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, fuu, Hon. Charleswood PC EVANS, Clif Interlake NDP EVANS,Leonard S. BrandonEast NDP FILMON, Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRIESEN, Jean Wolseley NDP GAUDRY, Neil St.Boniface Liberal GnLESHAMM.ER, Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC GRAY, Avis C!escentwood Liberal HELW.ER, Edward R. Gimli PC HICKES, George Point Douglas NDP KOWALSKI, Gary TheMaples Liberal LAMOUREUX,Kevin Inkster Liberal LATHLIN, Oscar ThePas NDP LAURENDBAU,Mucel St.Norbert PC MACKINTOSH, Gord St. Johns NDP MALOWAY, fuu Elmwood NDP MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows NDP McALPINE, Gerry SturgeonCleek PC McCORMICK, Norma Osborne Liberal Mc�, James, Hon. Brandon West PC MciNTOSH.Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON,Bonnie, Hon. RiverEast PC ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. Pembina PC PALUST.ER, Brian PortageIa Prairie PC PENNER, Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN, John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK, Damn, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Transcona NDP REIMER, Jack Niakwa PC RENDER, Shirley St.Vital PC ROBINSON,Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN,Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSE, Bob TurtleMountain PC SANTOS, Conrad Broadway NDP SCHELLENBERG,Hany Rossme� NDP STEFANSON,Eric, Hon. KirkfieldPlllk PC STORIE,Jerry FlinFlon NDP SVEINSON, Ben LaV�ndrye PC VODREY. Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC WOWCHUK, Rosann Swan River NDP 2573

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, May 30, 1994

TheHouse met at 1:30 p.m. theWinds orPark Collegiate fiftyGrade 9 students

under the direction of Mrs. Sisco and Mrs. Karen PRAYERS Haluschak. This school is located in the RO�PROCEEDINGS constituency of the honourable member for Niakwa(Mr. Reimer). READINGAND RECEIVING PETITIONS Then, from the Constable Edward Finney TheMisericordia Hospital General School, we have fifty Grade 5 students underthe Incorporation Act direction of Ms. Lorraine Garnett. This school is Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the located in the constituency of the honourable honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. memberfor The Maples (Mr. Kowalski). Laurendeau). It complies with the privileges and On behalf of all honourable members, I would the practices of the House and complies with the like to welcome you here thisafternoon. rules.Is it the willof theHouse to have thepetition read? ORAL QUESTION PERIOD AnHonourable Member: Dispense. BristolAerospace Limited Mr.Speaker: Dispense. EmploymentStatistics

The Petition of Misericordia General Hospital Mr.Gary Doer(Leader of theOpposition) : Mr. praying for the passing ofan act to amend The Speaker, my questionis to thePremier. Misericordia General Hospital IncorporationAct 'lbeCF-5 was awardedto Manitobain 1988, and to permit the admission of persons as members of the commitment from the federal government the corporation pursuant to its by-laws and to initially called for 56 planesto be retrofitted here extend the authority of the executive committee of in Manitoba. In the 1991 budget that wasreduced the directors of the corporation. to 46 planes; in the 1994 federal budget it was TABLING OF REPORTS reduced to 36 planes. Bon. Eric Stefanson (Ministerof Finance): Mr. Therealready has been a reduction aof hundred Speaker, I am pleased to table the First Quarter employeesworking at Bristol, andthere is a great 1994 Reportfor the Manitoba Telephone System. dealof concernat the plantand with people we talk to about the status of employment at the Bristol Bon. DarrenPraznik (Ministerof Labour) : Mr. operation. Speaker, I would like to table Supplementary Information for Legislative Review for the I would like to ask the Premier, what is the 1994-95 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for employment forecast for the Bristol operation the Department of Northern Affairs,the Manitoba relative to the wolk from the federal government Civil Service Commission and the Manitoba and otherwork they may obtain? Employee Benefits andOther Payments. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition is quite right in that Introductionof Guests defence cuts in generalthat arebeing made by the Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I federal Liberal government and specific defence directthe attention of honourable members to the cuts with respect to the EH-101 and the CF-5 gallery,where we have withus thisafternoon from overhaul will dramatically affect firms in 2574 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

Manitoba. The EH-101 probably involved a number of 400 will probably be met in the longer reduction of about 450 jobs that would have tenn. resulted from some $360 million worth of work that would have been done in Manitoba underthat Aerospace Industry program. Employment CreationStrategy 1be CF-5 reductions ultimately, I believe, will Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): result inprobably more than 200 add itionallayoff s That will mean close to a 33 percent reduction in in Manitoba in the long tenn. These are very regrettablesituations for Manitobabecause I know the workforce from November of 1993 to that oftentimes forthe last number of yearsI heard Decemberof 1994, which is a massive decline in Liberalmembers in thisHouse, including one who high-tech, high-paid skilled jobs in the province of is now in Ottawa, make speeches about what a Manitoba,with thePremi er's numbers here today. tragedy it was that ourengineering and technical Arethere any alternativesthat the minister or the graduates could not findjobs in Manitoba, but this Premier (Mr. Filmon) is seeking with the federal isdirect impact and directof result decisions from government, alternative contracts, alternative the new Liberal government that willin fact result work in either the private sector or in the public in hundreds of jobs being lost for engineers and technical people in Manitoba. sector that will allow this workforce to be stabilized andto allow us to prevent these layoffs • (1335) and reductionsin the workforce? Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, there is quite a bit of Isthere anywork and discussionwith thefederal concern at the plant about their immediate government and the federal minister, whom I employment situation. On February 26, the know is also interestedin keeping people working Premier indicated there would be 400 jobs here in Manitoba? Can the Premier indicate what potentially lost at Bristol. ThePremier is now saying it is down to 200jobs. Word at the plant is alternatives are available through the federal lead that thosejobs willbe lost at endthe of 1994. ministerto keepthis very, very important industry from losing one-third of its workforce in 14 1bePremier used thetenn, in the longertenn. I months? would like to know whenthe Premier expects the reductions to take place at the plant andwhether Bon. James Downey (Minister of Industry, we canconfirm it-it isdown froma projected400 Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, this to 200 which ismoving in theright directi on-and government is extremely concerned about the whether there is any alternative work for the federal Liberal decision to reduce the military workers at thatplant with alternativecontracts that expendituresin the aerospace industry. They were could be made available for keeping that contacted when the initial announcement was workforceat theplant. made, and there have been discussions going on AsI say, we have lost about a hundredpeople in withdepartmental staff . the last five months, and it is crucial we keep people in that aerospace industry working here in We have beenworking with theother aerospace Manitoba. people, as well, to try to shift to less dependency on the military activity, as has been in the past. Mr. Filmon: My understanding is that the 1bere areprograms in place that areworking with reductions that are attributable specifically to the CF-5 cutback aresom ethingin therange of200 to all the aerospace industry in Manitoba, because it 250 jobs, but that overall with some other is extremely important to this province, and we reductions thatare takingplace as aresult of just willendeavour to do whateverwe canto assurethe reduced defence spending in general in which jobs thatare there and to offernew opportunities as Bristol would be a contractor in many cases, the it relates to thatindustry. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2575

Health SdencesCentre Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, the honourable Staft'Reductioas member has the same kind of access to the president of theHealth Sciences Centre as Ido. He Mr. Dave Chomiak (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, canask thatquestion of the president of theHealth from the very beginning of the government's Sciences Centre. 1beletter, orwhatever it was the so-called health reform, we have said that itis honourable member referred to, did discuss a reallymore anexercise in slashingcutting. and We bottom line, and the bottom line for this have now learned that at the Health Sciences government ispatient careat hospitals. I have said Centre before the end of the year, 300 employees that many times and that remains the bottom line will be eligible for retirement and, quote: 1bese of this government. We will not accept any people will be part of the government-required recommendation or anychange thatwould have a staff reductions necessary to reach budget negative impact on patient carein our hospitals. requirements. Mr.Chomiak : Mr. Speaker, how can theminister How doesthe ministerreconcile these addi tional explain this same letter? 1be president is saying: staffcuts at Health Sciences Centre with his new the anger and frustration generated, the likes of feel-good policy pronounced as recently as last which I have neverwi tnessedin my experience. week, when he said that it is a new feel-good How canthe ministerexplain hiscomments that approach to health care and we arenot measuring they are not going to affect patient care when the value of our system by the number of dollars everyone knows in the system thatpatient care is thatgo into it? affected and will be further affected by the Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. government's plan to furthercut staffand budgets Speaker, ifthat the is wording used, I would want at thehospitals ? to take that up with Hansard,because I think what Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, ifthere is anger and I said was, whatwe have is a phased approach to frustration, it is at the expressed support for . the reform, to the renewal of our health care renewal of our health system by honourable system, which I think is far superior to the one membersoppos ite and thencontinu ous badgering being advocated by the honourable member and atevery step of the way in our attemptsto renew a his colleagues, which is the same approach being sustainable andquality healthcare system . used in Ontario, the same approach being usedin 1be honourable member refers to documents I Saskatchewan and the one being used in B.C., do not have in front of me. I canlook at them, and which is hackand slash and bum anddo noteven that would be interesting to do. bother to ask questions. I tell you, Mr. Speaker, as I said a few minutes • (1340) ago, this government will not accept recommendations from HealthSciences Centre,or Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, in light of that, can anywhere else, that would have a negative impact the minister explain why, in a letter to st aff, the on patient care. president of the HealthSciences Centre said, and I quote: I would suggest that it is clear to everyone Economic Growth that the major thrust of this exercise has been GovernmentForecast financial. Financial targets were set for us, and Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second these were distributed amongst the teams with the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on April l9, a little bottom-line review being related to measuring our over a month ago and the day before the Finance achievement against thesedollar goals. minister tabled his budget in this House, I asked How does the minister explain that and those the MinisterFinance of what assurances he could comments from the president of the Health give Manitobans that he might actually accurately Sciences Centre? predict the rate of growth in thisprovince , having 2576 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 199 4

overestimated the rate of growth in the last five some inaccuracies in the draftreport, offered to fly years. down and meet with the Canadian Bond Rating 1beminister's answer, in part, stated when be Agency. That offer was refused, Mr. Speaker, was speaking abouthis, be claimed, veryccura a te because they apparently had already made up their projections and deficit projections and rate of mindsin terms of thisparticular issue, so they did growth, quote, I have badthe opportunity tospeak not accept that. They indicated to us that they with the bond rating agencies, to speak with the would bereleasing their report and theresults of it underwriters, telland Ican you in thisHouse, Mr. a week Friday, which isthe upcoming Friday. Speaker, that they highly regard the Province of • (1345) Manitoba. Throughout this whole process, obviously, I Mr. Speaker, on Friday, the Canadian Bond have some great deal of concern about the Rating service downgraded both the guaranteed approach and what I consider unprofessional debenture and short-term credit rating of this approach of the CanadianBond Rating service, but province. Thisprovince was one of two of the six overall, the true test, I want to conclude, of that they badass essedwhich was downgraded. Manitoba's creditworthiness andwhat we have to My question for the Minister of Finance: When pay for borrowing and so on is the public did he last speak to the Canadian Bond Rating themselves. We continue to have no problem Agency? A monthago? Were they, in fact,highly borrowing capital, and we continue to borrow at regarding of thisMinister of Finance, andwhat has interestrates that aresignificantly belowprovinces changed? that arerated higher than us, provinces likeOntario andQuebec. Ron. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker,I thankthe Leader of the Liberal Party for So the true test-and we spoke with that question because, I think, as he knows, there underwriters this morning, and they say are four traditional bond rating agencies, Standard Manitoba's product continues to trade well, Mr. and Poor's and Moody's, who some suggest are Speaker. the more reputable and credible in some respects, Mr. Edwards: It isvery interesting, Mr. Speaker, but there is also the Dominion Bond Rating the Minister of Finance isnow-it islike a moving Service andthe Canadian Bond Rating service. target, this true test, because in the budget and in Standard and Poor's and Moody 's, I met with all the speeches,be points to one of the bond rating back in the beginning of March, Mr. Speaker, and agencies as the great sign that we are doing okay. they do speak very highly of the Province of He picks one of the four that happens at that Manitoba.We, throughout our term in office,have particulartime to belooking favourably on us, but not beendowngraded by Standard-and Poor's and histrue test isa moving target. Moody's. Now, Mr. Speaker, my supplementary question I do want to refer to the downgrading that for the Minister of Finance: In the press release occurred on Friday from the Canadian Bond issued by the Canadian Bond Rating service, they Rating service because we, last week, received a specifically talk about the very high level of debt briefing and notification from them thatthey were which this province is carrying, and they also talk looking to downgrade us. That was without any about the rate of growth in the province, rate of inquiry of us, without any meeting with anyof our economic growth. staff, without anydiscussions whatsoeverwith our My questionis for the Minister of Finance, Mr. government. Speaker. He talks about inaccuracies. How can he I had a meeting with my senior officials, assure those four bond rating agencies and the directed them to contact the agency on Friday people of thisprovince thathis pro jectionof rate of morning, whichthey did at 10 a.m. They offered to growth in this province might be accurate for the provide additional information because there were first time in six years? Why not only has he been May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2577

wrong in the last five years, but be bas always Is there any assurance? Is be going to be taking overestimated growth? Perhaps that is why his another trip to New Y m:k: as be and the Premier credibilityis lacking with thebond rating agencies. (Mr. Filmon) did last year to try and shore up prospects for thisprovince? Whatmeetings bas be Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, as usual, theLeader bad with the other bond rating agencies to ensure of the Liberal Party stretches the truth to its thatthey donot feel exactly the same as thisbond absolute limits. r rating agency which says, rating outlook,negative, In terms of the positioning of Manitoba, what Mr. Speaker? the Canadian Bond Rating servicehas done isthey Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I want to assure the have downgraded us to the same level as the Leader of the Liberal Party that bond rating Dominion Bond Rating Service in Canada. They agencies are not turning against the Province of have downgraded us to the same level as the Manitoba. I have confidence that, when the other province of New Brunswick, and Manitoba from bond rating agencies do theirreview whichthey do all four bondrating agencies iseither ranked fourth in conjunction with us-which, I believe, is the or fifthbest inall of Canada professional and appropriate thing to do-they He refersto the report and the press release will look at the statistics. Tbey will look at, over referring to economic growth,but when be bas the the lastsix years, that the provincewith the lowest opportunity to see the detailed report be will note percentageof itsdeficit as apercentage of its gross thatthe two areasof greatest concern arethe areas domestic product in all of Canada isthe province of transferpayments from Ottawa-andwe know of Manitoba. Per capita deficits on an ualann basis, the position that is taken by the federal Liberal Manitobais consistently from thesecond to fourth government when Mr.Martin talksabout massive lowestin all of Canada. reductions in federal transfer payments-and it Whenyou lookat issues like that,when you look talks about the weakening of the Canadian dollar, at the percentage of revenue that goes to service and we see what bas happened to the Canadian debt, only one province is used as a lower dollar since the federal Liberals were elected in percentage than Manitoba to service debt, the Ottawa. province of British Columbia. So thebest thing becould do ifbe was genuinely So when you look at what the facts are, Mr. interested in the good of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, Speaker, and you do the duediligence in terms of would be totalk to some of hisfe deral colleagues. how Manitoba is positioned, particularly relative Some Honourable Members: Ob, ob. to every other province in Canada, I have the Mr. Edwards: I toucheda bit of a rawnerve over utmost confidence that those bond rating agencies here, Mr. Speaker. willsee allthe good wOJ:kthat is being done herein Manitoba. It will be reflected in their assessment, Mr. Speaker, thebond ratingagencies have been unlike thecursory review that is being done by the the great predictors for ernm this gov ent, andnow Leader of the Liberal Party, not unlike the review they are turning against the government after six done by theCanadian Bond Rating Agency. years of inaccuracies. • (1350) My question for the Minister ofFinance: The other agencies over time, of course, as time goes Hog Industry on, willbe reviewing Manitoba's credit rating.He Environmental Concerns mentions Moody's. He mentions Standard and Mr. CHfEvans (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, three Poor's. He mentions the Dominion Bond Rating weeks ago, the LGD of Annstrong rescinded their Service. previous resolution to support the proposed What assurances can be give the province, the multibogoperation in Chatfield. One of theirmaio members of this Legislature that, in fact, those concerns and the concerns of the citizens in the three agencies arenot going to do the same thing? community and in the Interlake is water quality. 2578 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

1beir concerns are that thesize of this operation and they will be regulating how livestock with the high capacity of water needed and used operations operate. Tillthe present time when The willseriously affect the watersupply and quality in FnvironmeotAct was passed, it excludedlivestock the areafor the future. operations because of themany concerns thatwere My question is for the Minister of Natural raised by municipalities, which had the authority Resources. Has the minister, who has received a to approve or disapprove any permits for hog request from the community, instructed his operationsor otherlivestock operations. Therewas department to review the magnitude of water pressure coming down on them to make decisions neededand how this affectwill the water supply in on these things. They were caught betwixt and the area before approving any permits orlicences between, and very often they tried to pass the for use? responsibility onto the government to some degree,the various departments. Boo. Albert Driedger (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, I think the member It is for that reasonthat government this decided might or might not be aware that just two and a that regulations should be brought fo rward, not half, three weeks ago, this government-the proposed regulations, regulations thatin are place Department of Agriculture,together with the right now, and municipalities should know that. If Department of Rural Development, the the member would avail himself and talk to the Departmentof:&vironmeot and mydepartment­ municipalities that have all received these came forward with regulations that are going to regulations, he could see that his issue is dealt dictate how livestock operations are going to be with. run, and those regulations also deal with the quality of waterand how you disposeof livestock Mr. Clif Evans: Mr. Speaker, again, people are waste. concerned about thewater quality and thefuture of the water for the Icelandic River, the Lake 1be regulations,we have passed them. lbey are Winnipeg area, for the communities that these in effect. Municipalities have been notified, and operations andthe sties are around. that should address the coocems not only of the LGD of Armstrong, but of allmunici palities. Will the First Minister request his Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) to initiate a Evans:Mr. Mr.Clif Speaker, I askedthe minister complete environmental audit in this area, about whether he has reviewed the use, the including the input of livestock producers, potential use, not thedraft that they have proposed, fishermenand concerned citizens? which is only a draft. Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Thislarge operation,Mr. Speaker, lies in a very sensitive hydrogeological environment, and it has memberhas already beentold that this government beenrecommended by thisadvisory boardthat this has brought in a new set of regulations, a set of site not be considered due to serious potential regulations that did not exist before , for the runoffthat will offset the quality of water. evaluation of this type of operation so that all of the concerns with respect to water supply, with Willthe First Minister (Mr. Ftlmoo) request his respect to sewage treatment, with respect to allof Minister of Environment to review this the potential for contamination, are being looked recommendation anddo animpact studyto assure after by this new set of regulations. the citizens and the communities that the future of rivers andthe lake will besaf e? They areone of the most comprehensive sets of regulations that has ever been put forward. We did Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I can only repeat it after considerable consultation, and it will again that it is not proposed regulations. It is addressthe problem. regulations that are in place that have been approved by the government They are in place, • (1355) May 30, 1994 LEGISLA11VEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2579

Bog Industry that we can, with confidence, look at this EnvironmentalConcerns expansionin thehog industry. Ms. Rosano Wowchuk (Swan River): Mr. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, it was a simple Speaker, the health of rural communities does question asto whether therean was analysis done, dependon theattraction of newindustries that wiD whether biggeris better. diversify our economy. As the member for Since we believe that the rural economy will Interlake (Mr. Clif Evans) raised, there is the benefit more from supporting smaller operations whole issueof the hog industry. involvingmore people andwill have less effecton Mr. Speaker, as we move from smaller farm watertables andon waterpolluti on, Iwant to ask operations to large operations, govemment must the government whether they will look at provide leadership to achieve a balance between restricting the size hogof regulations to limit the environmentand economic interest. pollution, potential conflicts andproble ms on My question to the minister: Has he asked his watertable andpollution ofwater. department to do an analysis of the size of Willthe government look atwhether or not this operations, particularly large operations, as they is a viable way to go? relateto theirsustainability andthe growth of the rural community, and what is the comparison of Mr. Eons: Mr. Speaker, I have no problems with these large operations to small operations in job trying to detenninethe size of theoperations. We creation? will have large-, small- and medium-sized ones. There ais new development, the biotechbarns that Bon. BarryEons (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. do not involve liquid manureat all, butare in loose Speaker, let me make it very clear to the housing barns. They will be of a smaller to honourablemember andindeed members to of the medium-sizedoperati on. We areencouraging that, House, we are talking about the possibility of but we are talking about competing in a global creating between 8,000 and 9,000 jobs in the market province of Manitoba over the next four or five years. 1be hog industry currently employs some We are talking, by the way, of competing with 12,000 Manitobans and all reasons, international thevery pleasant country of Denmark, which is a trade obligations, proposed changes to our feed verypleasant c ommunity tovisit, environmentally grain policy lla the Crow benefit, mean that we speaking. I think you cantake all of Denmarkand have a golden opportunity to take advantage of drop it into LakeWinnipeg and there would stillbe this. water around the edges. That little country produces more hogs than all of Canada-22 Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how many million hogs, andthey do it in anenvironmentally thousandtanks , underground storage facilities,we acceptable way. That is the kind of competition have in this province containing millions upon that ourmarltet faces, and we havewill to have the millions of litres of gasoline and diesel fuel. We very best of facilities to enable us to produce that manage to do that safely. We have environment production. protection to ensure that. That is why every operatorthat operates a facilityhas to dip his tank Ms. Wowchuk: I am glad the minister raised the on a daily basis.Surel y we canmanage a much less issue of Denmark,because Denmarkdoes raise a toxic product like animal waste, which in many lot of hogs and I want to ask this govemment if cases is a golden resource as a fertilizer, in a theywill bring in as goodgulations re as they have mannerthat is environmentallyacceptable . in Denm ark so we do not have to worry about pollutionand that we have a supply ofwater that is 1be regulations that my colleague has referred not contaminated. to, the regulations that my Premier (Mr. F"dmon) has refenedto arenow in place. They were not in Mr. Enos:Mr. Speaker, I do acknowledgethat we place a month ago, andthese give us theassurance have just begun the Estimatesof the Departmentof 2580 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

Agri culture. I have not had the opportunity of themselves if they do have an opportunity to personally presenting her with the new set of contribute in a positive manner to Manitoba's regulations, which are as the Filst Minister (Mr. society. Filmon) hasindicated, among the best, not just in Mr. Martindale: Can the minister tellus ifshe is Canadabut in the world. They specifically secure concerned about municipalities recommending to thesafe productionof hogs.They specifically refer Mr. to the concerns about ground water. They individuals, as they did to Landry, that they specifically refer to thehandling of the by-product relocate to a larger centre, since an over­ whelminglylarge number of municipal assistance of manure. cases are already a caseload of the City of Furthermore, we have, of course, the Farm Winnipeg? Is she concerned about the tax burden Practices Board in place that, ifan operator is not to the city of Winnipeg ratepayers, and has she in compliance with these regulations, that communicated an y concern on this to rural operation can be shut down or severely fined or municipalities andt owns? told that they have X number of days to change their method of production. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, I thank my honourable friend for that question because it was • (1400) just last year that we implemented a one-tier Municipal Social Assistance system of social assistance so that all Regulations municipalities indee d had to pay the samerates. So we are in support of ensuring that all Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, municipalities accept their fair share of lastweek in Famil y Services Estimates , I askedthe responsibility for municipal assistance. Minister of Family Services if she ag reed that people on social assistance should do volunteer work. Theminister rep lied that shewholeheartedly SocialSafety Net Reform agreed andga ve some very goodreasons asto the Impacton Social Assistance benefits of volunteering for these individuals, whether they areon mun icipal or provincial social Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Has the assistance. Minister of Family Services communicated her concern to the fe deral government about their Regrettably the Town of Beausejour has so-called social policy reform, which in their terminated assistance for Les Landry due to his budget of this yeareliminated a number of reasons volunteer worlcon behalfof the CitizensCoalition for being on unemployment insurance,the result of on Gambling Directions. His appeal to the which isthat 40,000 people are no longer eligible provincial appealcommittee was dismissed. for Ul, and the cost to Manitoba, according to this I would like to ask the minister if she has minister, is an additional $2 million in social reviewedthe meritsof thisand case whether she is assistance expense? Has the minister willing to intervene and to allow him to do communicated to the federal minister, and canshe volunteer worlc and not disallow his benefits as a tell us what shesaid? result. Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, we are interested in what Services): Mr. Speaker, indeed, I was not total social safety net reform does mean anddoes informed of that ruling. I can certainlytake a look mean to the fe deral government. I think we into the matter and take that question under discussedat great le ngthlast week theissue around advisement. ensuring thatthe processis a process of true reform I will reiterate, as a result of the conversation at the federal level andthat it isnot just going to be that we had in Estimates last week, that I think oftloadin g onto the provinces responsibility that most people inMan itoba do fee l much betterabout the federal government had in thepast. May 30, 1994 LBGISLAllVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 258 1

We are monitoring very closely. As I indicated that there ought to be very specific regulations last wee k quite clearly, we are waiting to see the dealing withthese matte iS.Those arenow in place. federal government's vision of social safety net I will take the specific question from the refonn so that we have some understanding and honourable memberas notice, but it may well have some idea of what direction they aregoing to take been, andI just want to make thatvery plain, that if so thatwe canrespond. these offences took place six months ag o, a year ago, that they may well have not been covered by Hog Industry Environmental Concerns the regulations that at that point in time were yet not in place. Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. Ms. McCormick: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Speaker,the contravention Agriculture. was of Section 3 Part 1 of thelivestock production operations act, which was in force at this time. Yesterday we leamedmore aboutthe continuing Since then, the Min ister of Environment (Mr. problems with bog operations in Manitoba's Cummings) has had the opportunity to see a Interlake. Hog manure is being pumped into videotape of dumping of untreatedhog sewage. ditches. This presents a danger to otherlivestock operations as well as to surrounding residents. Did the Minister of Environment bring this [inteijection] video to the attention of the Ministers of Agriculture, Rural Development (Mr.Derkach) Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable andNatural Resource s (Mr. Driedger)? Minister of Agriculture is attempting to listen to tbequestion , ifnobody else is. Mr. Eons: Mr. Speaker, I will not accept any of 1be honourable memberfor Osborne, with your tbepremises indicated by the honourable member. question,please. I will certainly take the question as notice on behalfof the Minister of Environment. Ms. McCormick: The first two complaints concerning thisdumping intoditches was not acted Yet again, let me clearly state the changed upon. The Department of Environment finally circumstances. A future complaint of this kind investigated a third and wrote letteiS confinning now has an official board to appear before, the validity of thedumpi ng, when acompl aint was namely, the Farm Practices Board, who have as made. their guideline and for their direction specific I would liketo table these letteiS. They confirm regulations for which to makejudgm ents on. That that the Department of Environment and the hog board, quite frankly, as I have stated on several operations involved knew there was a problem occasions, has tbe authority, as a quasi-judicial with the design and operation of the waste board, to impose very immediate and drastic handling systems. restrictionson anoperator that is not incompliance with tbe regulations. It canshut downtbe operator. Can the Minister of Agri culture tell this House It the operator, orit cancause to cease why the company has never been charged under canfine him 1beEn vironmentAct regulations? operations until the facility is modified in such a mannerthat the operation would be in compliance Bon. HarryEons (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. with the new regulation. I think that it should be Speaker, as has already been indicated, specific undeiStood that these regulations are on ly now regulations, that is, regulations that carry the coming into effect. weight of law, have just been promulgated by this government a short month ago. There were in Ms.McCorm ick: A finalquestion to the Min ister place guidelines and suggestions, an d it was of Agriculture: Canthe minister confinn then that dee med by myself asMinister of Agriculture, and appropriate resources will be in place to enforce by thisgo vernment, thatthat was not good en ough, the regulations which arein fact being developed? 2582 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

Bon. Darren Praznik (Acting Minister of Bon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice Environment): Mr. Speaker, as Acting Minister and Attorney General): I totally reject everything of Environment, I would say to the member for in the preamble the member said. I have put Osborne that she should be well aware that in forward for Manitobans a very complete plan. In enforcement of any regulations or legislation, fact, we have gone beyond the plan, and as the obviously, discussions take place. throne speech indicated, we will be introducing The member should be well aware that just legislationto amendThe Highway TrafficAct. We herself,in termsof occupational safetyand health, arelooking at a gunamnesty. that shecontacted WmkplaceSafety andHealth on So themember is absolutely wrong. The people at least two occasions asking that orders be of Manitoba know he is wrong, and they know extended or negotiations take place to deal with that, in fact,we have put forwarda plan andalso a particular matters, for there to be some time for planfor the YoungOffenders Act which we have that to beproperly implemented. not heardyet from the members opposite. So I willtake herquestion as notice on behalfof In terms of very specific staffing issues, the the minister. member knows we will bebeginning the Estimates Point ofOrder of the Department of Justice this afternoon, and I will be glad to discussin detail the issues relating Ms. McCormick: I would ask this minister to to corrections. place before the record some documentationwhich indicates thathave I ever asked foran extension of • (1410) a WorltplaceSa fety and Healthorder. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, unlike those judges, Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable thisemployee who is beinglaid offthis Friday will member does not have a point of order. That is not besharing the one-million-dollar program with clearly a dispute overthe facts. otherlaid-off employe es. Inview of theserious backlog in the system, Mr. JudicialSyste m-The Pas Speaker, will ministerthis immediatelyput the cut StaffingReductions on hold andnot lay offthe employee thisFriday as Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable she haspl anned? member for The Pas has great difficulty in Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, again, I would like to standing up with his broken ankle. We all know deal with the issue of any backlogs which the that membercontinues to speakabout. We arecertainly Now, the honourable member for The Pas, who doing far better than the NDP did when they were hasthe floor. in government. They had backlogs of 10 months Mr. Oscar Lathlin (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, my anddid not even want to talkabout it. questions aredirected to the Minister of Justice. We are dealing with due process, and we are We have been listening to this minister for the dealingin our courts.The two courtsthat provide past few weeks giving big speechesand refusing to us with concern are the Domestic Violence Court, answer our questions andour attempts to gether to and in that court we are down to a period of table a plan of action or a position on young approximately four and a half months, offenders and the huge backlog in the court approximately five months. Inthe youth court, we system. have continued to reduce any backlog, but we recognize that there is certainly a requirement for I would like to ask the minister if she could due process. explain to this House why she is now cutting one of the six employees at The Pas correctional court Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, given that this which is, by the way, the fourth busiest regional employee apparently does thefiling and computer courtin the province. entry of over 90 percent of common offence May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2583

notices, will the minister take into consideration NONPO�CALSTATEMENTS the fact that northerners also need to access a Manitoba Associationof Registered Nurses justice system thatworks, the horrendous backlog Awards in the system and the jobless rate of northern Manitoba? Will the minister reconsider her Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I wonder ifI have decision andput thelayoff on hold? leave to make a nonpolitical statement.

Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, the theatrics in the Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable First Minister words are absolutely amazing to me. have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] The member should know, and let me also Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker, I would like to bring reassure Manitobans who are listening, of our commitment to a justice system across Manitoba, the congratulations of this Assembly to a number and that includes northern Manitoba. It also of individuals who were honoured at the awards includes allother partsof Manitoba. luncheon of the Manitoba Association of RegisteredNurses lastFriday. As we look at the staffing requirements across These four nurses were given professional Manitoba, especially with some of the changed excellence awards in nursing. They are, firstly: improvements which we are introducing, then we Anne Russell, who received the professional will have to lookat what our needsare whetherand nursing award of excellence in the clinical or not those needs have chang ed. category. She is a nurse at the Health Sciences Centre, an HIV clinical nurse at the Health Crisis Shelters Sciences Centre; secondly, Marilynne Hogg, who Allowable Stay received the professional nursing award of excellencein theeducation category. Shehas been Ms.Becky Barrett(Wellingto n): Mr.Speaker, in the course leader at the University of Manitoba the Pedlar report tabled in the House in August collaborative baccalaureate program proposal in 1991, one of the recommendations is that Health Sciences. The third individual, Lois Manitoba Family Services and income security McMurchy, received the professional nursing increasedthe initial allowable stay for a woman at award of excellence in the category of a shelter to 30 days fromcurre the nt 10 days. administration. She is the director of patient I would like to ask the Minister of Family resident services at The Pas Health Complex. Services to explain to the House today why that Fourthly, Sue Hicks, who received from the recommendation hasnot been actedupon . Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses, the outstanding achievement award. Ms. Hicks is the Bon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Famlly Assistant Deputy Minister of Community and Services): Mr. Speaker, indeed, we had the Mental Health Services for Manitoba Health. opportunity to discuss that last week during my Estimates. I indicated that the length of time of We are very pleased to join along with their stay is 10 days, but if indeed a woman needs peersand colleag ues in congratulating each one of protection for a longer period of time because these worthy recipients. supports are not in place outside of the shelter Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Leader of the system, thatthat extension is given automatically. official opposition have leave to make a Insome cases, 30 days isnot long enough. Inthose nonpolitical statement? [agreed] cases, we provide the opportunityfor that woman Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I to stay until there is assurance that she will be would like to join with the Premier in recognition protected asshe moves out into the community. of the awards that were granted last week at the Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has MARN Convention : Anne Russell, Marilynne expired. Hogg, LoisMcMurcby andSue Hicks. We wantto 2584 LEGISLA11VB ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

congratulate allfour individuals forthe award s that out that they felt this award could have gone to theyreceived. many,many others in addition to themselves. They We on this side had the opportunity to attend felt that it was the result of many who hadworked parts of the convention and were very impressed on the teams and the things that they had been withthe-n ot only atthe convention but beforethe involved in . convention we were very impressed with the I think,Mr. Speaker, thatperhaps exemplifies, in proposals the MARNorg anization wasmaking on the truestsen se, thenursing prof ession, working as behalfof making our Manitobahealth caresystem a team, as a partner in an overall cause. These a better system. We were very impressed with individuals were, of course, very grateful for the some of their ideas, some of their thoughts, some award but also were very humble in their of the ways in which we can en hance the role of acceptance of it, recognizing that it was a larger nurses to be both cost-effe ctive and contribution and a larger effort which had led to health-effectivein ourMani toba communities. the achievementsmade. We believe that MARN and MONA-or the Mr. Speaker, incon clusion, we allin thisHouse Nurses' Union andal ot of othernurses throughout I think recognize the very, very substantial and our communities have a lot of goodideas and a lot continuing contribution that nurses make to our of outstanding members providing service to society in so many ways and inparticu lar to our Manitobans. They have been going through a health care system. We have differences amongst pretty tough time lately, and we want to the parties about what role certain sectors of the congratulate the four recipients and the whole health caresector should play andthe extent of that MARN organization and nurses and nursing role, but there is no disagreement in this House profession in general on the tremendousjob they over the extensive contribution that all nurses do on behalf of all of us every day of the week, make in thispro vince.This is anapprop riate time, everyday of the year, andwant to addthose words I think, to put that on the record. We all, in all to the Premier'shere thisafternoon . parties, look forward to an increasing role being Mr. Speaker: Doesthe honourable Leaderof the played by nurses as we search to have this health second opposition party have leave to make a care system not only survive but be enhanced for nonpolitical statement? [agreed] the benefit of our citizens. Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second • (1420) Opposition): Mr. Speaker,on behalf ofthe Liberal Party I want to join with the comments of the AgaKhan Foundation Partnership Walk Leaderof the Opposition aswell as the Premierin Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for recognizing the enormous contribution that nurses Osborne have le ave to make a nonpolitical generally make in this province but also singling statement? [agreed] out this year the four recipients of the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurses awards. Ms. Norma McCormick (O sborne): Mr. I was privileged to be at the awards luncheon Speaker, yesterday at The Forks the Aga Khan last week, Mr. Speaker, andwant to personally add Foundation sponsored its lOth annual Partn ership our congratulations to Ms. Russell, Ms.Ho gg, Ms. Walk. In excess of $30,000 was raised in support McMurchy and Ms. Hicks for receiving those of the development of self-employment initiatives awards. inthe ThirdWorld. I wantto just add, in addition to joining with the Mr. Speaker, women perform 66 percent of the comments of the other twoearlier speakers, I had world's labour but receive only 10 percent of the the chance to speak to at least two of those income generatedby theireff orts. Women produce recipients prior to the lunch. Whatstrode wasme SO percent of the world's food but own only 1 thatthey were very clear andvery quick to point percent of the world's property. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATI VE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2585

I would ask other members injoining me in the impression that we would be dealing with congratulating theAga KhanFoundation , the local Education, and then it was going to be followed organizers andits volunteers, andthe walkers who either by Industry andTrade, but it was not going participatedin this event. to beAgri culture.

CommitteeChanges Mr. Speaker: I believe thatis the thirdleave that Mr. Edward Helwer (GimU): Mr. Speaker, I he is requesting, that after the completion of Estimates- move, seconded by themember for St Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Mr. Ernst: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, a couple of Committee on Public Utilities and Natural minutes recess might resolve this issue, if I could Resourcesbe amended asfo llows: themember for meet with the other two House leaders. Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer) for the member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings); themember for La Mr. Speaker: We do not have to recess. I will ask Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) for the member for the three House leaders just to meet on the side, Lakeside (Mr.Enos). andwe willjust look ateach other.

Motion agreed to. Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, we have again discussed Mr. NeD Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I adj ustmentsto the Estimates sequence.Would you move, seconded by the member for Inkster (Mr. please canvass the House to determine ifthere is Lamoureux), that the composition of the Standing unanimous consent for the following: to set aside Committee on Public Utilities and Natural the Estimates of the Departments of Industry, Resources be amended as follows: The Maples Trade an d Tourism an d Environment on

(Mr.Kowalski) for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs). completion of the Estimates of the Department of Education and Training, to resume consideration Motion agreed to. of the Estimates of theDepartm ent of Agriculture, ORDERSOF THEDAY such consideration not to occur before 9:15 p.m. thisevening andleave begranted should theywish House Business to start after 10 p.m. and, three, to resume Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): consideration of the Estimates set aside in the Mr. Speaker, House leaders have again discussed ordermentioned on completion of theEstimates of adjustments to the Estimates.I amsorry, my voice the Department of Agriculture. is a little difficult. Would you please canvass the Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to allow what the House to detennine ifthere is unanimous consent honourable government House leader has just for the following: ( 1) to set aside the Estimates of proposed to us? Everybody understand? the Departments of Industry, Trade andTourism , Everybody does understand, allright? So there is and Environment; (2) on completion of the leave. Thathas been do ne. Estimates of the Department of Education and Training, to resume considerationof the Estimates Mr. Ernst:Mr. Spe aker, I move, seconded by the of the Department of Agriculture; and (3) to Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), resume consideration of the Estimates set aside in that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the the order mentioned on completion of the House resolve itself into a committee to consider Estimates of theDepartment of Agriculture? of the lySupp to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to set aside the Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself Estimates of the Department of In dustry, Trade into a committee to con sider of the Supply to be and Tourism and the Departmentof Fnvironment? granted to Her Majesty with the honourable Isthere leave to set thataside? member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Sec:ond Opposition Chair for the Department of Education and House Leader): For clarification, no, I wasunder Training; and the honourable member for Seine 2586 LEGISLAllVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the The Universities Giants Commission, which is Depanrnent ofJustice. andhas been practicing autonomyto a largede gree for manyyears now, without my knowledge, sent COMMI1TEEOF SUPPLY letters to the universities dated April 20, at which (ConcurrentSections) time it was pointed out to the universities what EDUCATION ANDTRAINING they could expect as their allocation, given the global funding announcement that was part of the Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Estimates package tabled by the Minister of Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply Finance. pleasecome to order thisafternoon. Thissection of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, Now, Mr.Deputy Chairperson, I fully expected will resume consideration of the Estimates of the that universities would live within the spirit of the Depanrnent of Education andTraining. 5 percent cap, because the letter, of course, that went out accompanying that notice of allocation When the committee last sat it had been was pretty specific dealing with the caps. considering item 6.(a)(l )(a) on page 44 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? I never believed in my wildest dreams until student representatives came to see me shortly Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Deputy thereafter, that universities were contemplating Chairperson, I wanted to ask the ministerwhether putting fo..Ward a service fee charge. Furthennore, he has had a response to his letter of regret and I indicated that my-I will not say disbelief, but dismay to the universities' boards ofgovernors at my dismay thatuniversities may becontempl ating Manitoba and Brandon about the student services this and quickly called the Universities Grants fee. Commission to ascertain what powers that I had, Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister ofEducation and more important than powers, what was the and Training): No. history associatedwith this. Ms.Friesen: How long doesthe minister intend to I have spoken to a university president. I have wait for a reply, andwhat action is heconsidering? spoken to students. I have spoken to staff. I have Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is what would appear to be some conflicting not for public disclosure at thistime. Weare again infonnation asto how long standing thediscussion monitoring the situation closely, bearing in mind a around this issue has been, particularly located at number of points, not the leastof which is anissue the boardgove of rnors. that the member brought to our attention when we Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I still, though, was were in Estimateslast evening when the member,I guided by the fact that the allocations had gone out sensed, wasbeing critical-I may bewrong-but I on April 20 to the universities. So this was my sensed was being critical as she used the word dilemma. They had been notified. They had "claw back" with respectto the 1992-93fiscal year. completedtheir budgeting, in essence,and then we Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I digress only for a areasked tointervene . That is where we aretoday . second to tellyou thathave I a letterI would like to I have sent a strongly worded letter. It invites table, specificallyto the MLAfor Wolseley,laying response. It certainly lays out a very strong out the historic perspective of thatdecision. condemnation at what the universities have done and certainly has an underlying threat that As I can recall from the other night when the obviously we willvery much take thisinto account member was, I sensed at least, chastising the anotheryear. government for having made a commitment through the Universities Giants Commission, and Thequestion before us all is: Do we unilaterally then attacking unexpended funds around that withhold funds, break again a commitment of commitment, today we find ourselves vinually in Apri1 20, Mr. Deputy Chairperson? I would askfor the same position. some indication from the Higher Education critic May 30, 1994 LEGISLA1lVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2587

of the NDP as to what path she senses the Has be, for example, ever discussed this government should follow. I would welcome her separately with his membeiS of the boards of recommendation. govemoiS7 Doesbe ever meet withhis membeiS of the boards of governors? Given that the Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, my question to government does appoint a considerable number the minister was: How long was be going to wait of members to those boards, were they for some for a response from theuniversities? reason not aware of the government's policy • (1440) statements thatthe cap was to be S percent? It is a matter of anddirection at stage. Mr.Manness: Mr. Deputy OlairpeiSon, thatmay both process this very well be the question, but I am asking the Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , member, too, asto what side of the issue she wants obviously, they werenot I do, yes, and haveI met to beon this,bearing in mind thatwe areone ofthe with thegovernment appointees to theuniversities. few universitiesin Canada,I amled to believe, that I did so upon receiving this responsibility. We basput caps into place. talkedabout a numberof issues, fee caps being one I guess the point I am trying to make is that of them, but certainly we did not talk about certainly we are aware that there are variations of whether or not universities in the past or in the caps in other jurisdictions, but when it comes to future would be considering supplementary fee s, the-some of them are 7 percent, 10 percent in called in this casestudent support service fees, or nature, oflevel, andOUIS basbeen thelowest in the whatevertenn bas been put to them.I can say,yes, country. I sense that was supported, certainly by I have discussed a numberof issues with them, but the student body. I cannot remember the obviously I did not discuss thisone because I did opposition parties taking a view on it oneway or not see it raisingits bead. the other. I guess it is your right in opposition not to do that. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, the minister is aware, I assume, thatit is thefinance committee of Mr. Deputy Olairperson, again to the question, the boards on which represented government as indicated by the Minister of Finance (Mr. appointee s do sit whichhave raised this issue. In Stefanson), we are expecting a response to the fact the boards, certainly in the case of the letter, and yet certainly my letter did not dictate University of Manitoba, have voted unanimously that there bad to be one. Whether one is for these student service fees, that is with the forthcoming or not, it is too soon to say. exception of the student membeiS of the board.

Ms. Friesen:Mr. Deputy Chair, it is not the lowest Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson , the in the country by any means, since Quebec for a memberobviously then has information we do not number of yem bad a freeze studenon t fees. have. I asked a representative of the UniveiSities I wanted to ask the minister-and be is right to Grants Commission whether or not we have bring in the issue of the clawback, because I was minutes. Obviously, we have minutesdealin g with also looking thisat as anissue both of process and motions, but we have no idea to know, other than of government policy. In this case, what the that the motion was passed, whethernot or it was min ister has chosen to do is to go directly to the unanimously supported by everybody but student univeiSity boards of governoiS. Inthe issue of the reps. Certainly the minutes would not reflect that, clawback, as I was asking in an earlier session , so the member obviously bas in formation then the minister went through the Universities unknown to me. Grants Commission. I am looking for essentially lines of authority here and bow the ministerlooks Ms.Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, doesthe minister at the UniveiSities Grants Commission, how be see any role for the Universities Grants looks at the board of governors and his Commission in thisissue that needsto be resolved representativeson theboard ofgo vemoiS. with the univeiSities7 2588 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

Mr. Manness: I have asked for historical I am sure last year, when the first time we put information from the Universities Grants into place a cap, we knew that we would have to Commission. I have asked for comparatives across give direct effect to that policy, that the Canada I have asked to know what caps are in Universities Grants Commission in itself, ifit were place elsewhere. to issue that edict, would need strong government 1bemember talks about Quebec and supposedly support, and it was given that. its caps thathave tJeeo in place. I would sense what This is kind of a side turn on that particular she was talk:iogabout were capsthat were either at whole area. We have never encountered it before, zero percent or ata verylow rate of inflation. I am collectively, either the Grants Commission or the well aware that, for instance, McGill had government, andwe arejust trying to find bestthe supplementary fees in '93-94 in the range, way to deal with it at thispoint. depending on faculty, $486 to $588. I am well Ms. Friesen: TheRoblin commission suggested aware Queen'shas also-pardon me. Those were that fees befrozen while the government looked at Queen's range. The McGill range was $369 to the whole issue and the universities looked at the $723; Dalhousie $201 to $261; Saskatchewan whole issue of differential fee s across faculties. maintained at $75; Alberta at $350; British Given that recommendation, a very clear Columbia from$169 to $176. That is information recommendationon thepart ofRoblin, why did the that I have asked the Universities Grants minister choose to take the route of the 5 percent Commission to provide as we try andwork our cap? way throughthis process . Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, two I cantell themember as Ihave told the students, reasons. Firstly, we are well aware of the I was terribly dismayed, upset and had I known diminishing level of global funding. Secondly, this before the letters went out, with respect to with respect to differential fees, we sensed that allocation, in a year anda time whenthe grants are there was no way the university could give down as the member knows, I would have been meaningful input on their own to working towards extremely forceful. Right now the government thosedifferentia ls. though is trying to bring forward all the information it can to decide where we go from TheUniversities GrantsCommission and,in this here. case, the government, were not in a position to impose. We sensedthat we neededanother year to Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, the role of the really give effect to this recommendation if we Grants Commission then is really as aprovider of were to support it. Of course, again we will be information andadviser to theminister at thisstage giving greater detail with respect to that rather than as the arm 's-leogth go-between recommendation in thenot too distant future. between the universities. The minister is dealing Ms. Friesen: Given the addition of, let us say for directly withthe university boards on this. the moment, the 5 percent rather than the 7.5 Mr.Manoess : Mr.Deputy Chairperson,if you are percent increase, ifwe look at a 5 percent increase talking this,you aretalking about thisissue . in fees this year, can the minister tell me what proportion of university expenditures globally in Ms.Friesen : Yes. theprovince will be providedby student fees? Mr. Manness: Oh, well, this issue, again, Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, right represents a whole new eraand a new area for all today tuition fees represent 23.3 percent, of us. TheUniversities Grants Commissionhas not University of Manitoba; 36.1 percent, University experienced having to deal with this issue before of Winnipeg; 22.6 percent, Brandon University; and probably has not been quite so much in the and 22.8 percent for St. Boniface university. If we middle of anissue asthis one in the past. were to weight all of those factors, I am pretty sure • (1450) we would bein the realm of around25 percent. May30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2589

Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, the minister is sure what the minister meant by "nothing bas aware, we talked lasttime about the Smith report. changed." The Smith report recommendedas a national goal Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am that universities move to a 25 percent figure of saying that inthe eyes of those who are involved, expenditures, that is, of fees as a proportion of actively involved on a day-to-day basis or on a university expenditures. supervisory basis oron a boardlevel basis or on an Manitoba seems to have reached that. The administrative basis, the role of the university, minister is looking now at another year of debate when I listenedto peopleover the weekend tryand and discussion to presumably move to differential more clearly define what a university should be levels. What does the minister anticipate the doing today in the context of the world moving highest levelwill be 7 into the next generation, I did not hear mission goals or strategicplam goalsstated in the terms Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, I cannot or speculate. I am so:ay, Inot am close enough to the any different thanI did 20 or30 years agowhen I was actual fees in place right now, tuitions in place in attendance myselfat university. rightnow, tospecula te on thatwhole issue. Ms.Friesen: Whatdoes theminister thinkthat the Ms. Friesen: I wanted to go back to some of the universities are missing in their long-range recommendations of the Roblin commission-we planning? All three universities have long-range are stillmore orless on theUGC lineI think-and plans in process. What does the minister think is look at the recommendations about transparency missing? and making oneself understood and available to You see , I also spent the weekend at a the community. Theminister had expressed earlier conference, the Manitoba Medical Association, some concerns about the diminishing role, as he and I would say a full 30 percent of the several seesit, of theuniversity in responding to theds nee hundred people there bad some connection with of small business in Manitoba. I wonder if he universities, whether it was community health would like to add to that statement and give us wolkers, whether it was thepeople in the northern some other ideas of where the government is medical unit, whether it was northern trained looking for universities to respond to the nurses, whetherit was physiotherapists who were community. Wheredoes theminister see thegaps? in active participation in remote communities Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chaiiperson, I thinkI aroundthe province, or people who were giving a made my statements the other night. I have just variety of research perspectives on genetics in come back from a conference, the fu st ever northern communities, for example. consultative conference oneducation inMontre al. I thought to myself of the minister's comments Many of the same questions were being asked and on the failures of the university to meet the needs thechalle nges thrownout to universities asto how of some of the areas that he saw in small business. they better related with the community fully It seemed to me that that was one perspective, but defined. I heard the same generalities there that I that there were many other broader perspectives have beardover andover and over again. I do not about the role of the universities in general in the probably have an awful lot to add to the broad community and the way in whichthey have made, goals that strategic plans and missions that were continue to make, desire to make much greater ever fully contemplated by universities, andto me contributions to the standard of living, to the future they have addressed these issues for generatiom. of research into the nature of communities right Probably nothing baschanged. across Manitoba. Ms. Friesen: I am sorry,Mr. Deputy Chairperson. The minister's words rangin my ears as Isat at I think the minister ended up with "nothing bas that conference andwatched speaker after speaker, changed." So either they were doing things well profession after profession, from community some years ago, and now they are not I am not health wolkers to geneticists, talk about Manitoba 2590 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

and Manitoba-based research, the fu ture of Roblin commission, that that direction was clearly Manitoba, the impact of theirwork on Manitoba, seen as acriticism of universities. the needs of northern Manitoba, the needs of I think people are prepared to accept criticism, aboriginal communities in the South. So I am but it needs to be more specific. What exactly is wondering, I am tryingto get asense ofwhere the being done appropriately, and what needs to be minister sees thegaps are. done? The minister has given us one area. The Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Cllai.Iperson, again, I Roblin reporttalked about a similararea Is that the will not engage myself in that debate. I stated, only area that we should be looking at? Is it the what we were discussing the other night was how small business community? What is it? The it was universities could reach out in greater detail minister seems to suggest that the impact of the to the community, in greater fashion to the universities on the public sector, in public health, community, andwhat couldthey do toagain show in training, in the long-term education and the the larger community that they are vital, that they Manitoba-based research that needs to be done, have anincredibly important role to play, and that and I amgiving himthe example of public health. they will make the changes if they play even a Is that something we should take for granted and greaterrole of importance. I narrowed in on one that the universities should move on to look at area where I thought they could respond. something else? What the member talks about now are very People are looking for guidance. They are general statements. Mr. Deputy Olairperson, I do looking for some sense of what directions the not have a lot of time on general statements, public of Manitoba, asrepresented temporarily by becausewe cangeneralize to everything the end of this government, want them to go. The minister time and say,well, why change? Where we are at has only talked about small business, yes, an important area, butwhere else? is fine. Everything that we have been doing is proper. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I could be wrong, but I am willing to surmise that at the • (1500) conference attended by the member for Wolseley I was encouraged by 500 delegates, almost all (Ms. Friesen), no or very little reference would who came from the formal education community have been made to the government's blueprint to on the weekend, as one Minister of Education, to the framework of economic growth, which laid become an advocate for the status quo and not a out, more so than anyother government that I have critic. I amnot a critic. I do wantnot to be acritic, seen or any other document by any other but I am not going to stand up and say that government,a blueprint for where this province in everything we have is finein alldimensions when all of its dimensions, in all of its institutions, I know that there are some revitalizations needed. should beproviding its focus. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will not expand beyond Mr. Deputy Chairperson, obviously medical that researchfits right in. So that is not an issue. There Ms. Friesen: Well, it doesnot leave us much to go aresix key areas that were specified. We saidthat, on, a minister who wants to see universities as the elected representatives of the people, we fulfilling a more expansive and community deem thatthese arethe six areas that, once it comes function. I do not think there is anybody in the down to hard decision during these times of universities who would disagree with him, that prioritizing, these are the areas that the universities should fulfill the needs of their universities, allother publicly funded institutions, community, should go out to meet them. I am the government itself within its discretionary looking for some indication here of what the spending, anybody who senses where the province minister believes should be done, because I think is going to try and concentrate-it laid out a thatis one of the difficulties people have with the blueprint of those areas. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2591

I am willing to bet that very few people have wondering ifthe minister would like anadditional read that within the broader context and are opportunity to put some comments on the record preparedto makedecisions to thatend. I would not about where he sees universities fitting into that prejudge, but I will be disappointed if the historic andinternational role. university community totally, acrossthe provi nce, Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Olairperson, nothing does not dwell on the areas of agrifood, that I have said precludes the emphasis on environmental industries, tourism, aerospace, academics, on teaching-nothing. The reality is, information and telecommunications and health when the member asked me the other day, and industry. Wolk hasbeen done. I do not know, but again doI not know in whatcontext itwas asked, most of theseareas, yes, arein the wealth-creation but certainly I took it in the context of being, are areas.In our view, thatis where universitiesshould theuniversities relating to thepublic in the fashion begin to tum a significant portion, greater portion they should? of research, although certainly within the health industries, and within the whole health field, an I do not sense, from my point of view, that they awful lot of good research is being done, and we are held in the esteem thatthey once were. I think have to do whatwe can tomaintain it. it begs all of usto ask thequestion why. I certainly do not pretend to have a monopoly on thatansw er, Nobody isgoing to tell me thatthere still cannot and maybe members opposite would state for the be asignificant change in mind-setwith respect to record whether they agree with that and provide manyof ourinstitutions , including universities, as to what is important in this province. So applied maybe some answer to the why from their own point of view. research andteaching inthese areas, thesestta tegic areas, obviously more co-operative programming All I do know is that this is not a Manitoba within these areas, better articulation between phenomenon. This is happening across the institutions within these areas. I do not know country. Thishappe is ning across NorthAmerica. whetherI canbe more definitive. It ishappening across the westernworld. A lot ofit Having been at a national conference for two isbecause of thechange our societyis undergoing, and a halfdays, and we talked about this but in a but beyond that,it is a recognition today that after global fashion ever so much larger than this,I did you come out with a basic degree, in a lot of cases not hear many people, professional educators, you arenot sought after the way, in anemployment come forward and be definitive as I have been in sense, you might have been 10 or 20 years ago. the lasttwo minutes, talking about where I sense I do not pretend to have the fullunderstanding of the greater focus should be with regard to our why that change, but I can say that the public public institutions. ultimately will detennine-in spite of kindwords Ms. Friesen: Would the minister like to make and statements of advocacy presented by the some comments for the record on the role of minister of the day and/or all the opposition universities in learning, in ideas, in research? You parties, society of the day will determine what see, that is what the universities are not hearing value theyput on all of ourinstitutions. Obviously, from this minister. I am glad he has made very we are at that point in time when we have to specific, very clear, the applied research and reflect teaching, which he expects universities will move I can make a point that a broad liberal arts towards. I think he has put it very clearly, very degree is something that, in the context of succinctly. I do not think it is one that perhaps stimulating thought and preparing rationality of will-I amlooking for the right words for thisone. argument, given the level of challenge directed Shall we say, I think thatuniversities anticipate towards students, is at a level comparable or anunderstanding from their government of the role beyond what it was in the past, and that there is of learning and research and teaching, and I am certainly anincredible rolefor that. 2592 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA May 30, 1994

Society is saying today thata lot of that is going think it will have to flow in a fashion in keeping to have to takeplace at an earlier age andbeyond with the target areasthat have been determined as that, once individuals want to build upon in an being the more valuable in the context of the institutional and a university setting, then that Province of Manitoba. should be allowed for, too, and state supported I Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, since this is, I am not troubled with that. At the end of the day, understand, the major research fu nd of the society will ultimately decide how much it wants government, andI know that the present assistant to direct, how much in resource it wants to direct deputy minister of the department was formerly at towards the total university setting. I, T and T, I think there is an opportunity here • (1510) perhaps to explore some of that research orientation of this government, since the minister Ms. Friesen: I amnot sure ifthe ministermeans talks about it as lied app research and teaching a by society in this case, the mmet willdeterm ine, betterarticulation as beingone of his goals. since that is often the phrasing he uses. Oneof the areas where the market, of course, has great The research money in I, T and T-and the difficulties in fulfilling the needs of society is in minister talks about criteria having been the area of long-term research. As the market established. Was there any provision for peer becomes more and more geared to shorter and review, which is the basis ofall research grantsand shorter time frames and turnarounds, thatis one of applications, peerreview in the distribution of that the areas where the public sector becomes $10 million each year, not that it has ever been increasingly important. distributeduntil thisyear?

I wonder if the minister would like to make Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, thisfund some comments on his government's research is under the auspices of the Economic Innovation policy. Where are they intending to direct their andTechnology Council. Certainly the individuals research funds? There has been $10 million, for who are sitting in judgment of applications asthey example, in I, T andT, which hasbeen sitting there come forward are individuals who are obviously undistributed every yearsince thisgovernment has from the university community, from the been elected. I do not see a great deal of that I, T community atlarge . and T money or money from the province in I would have to say in a sense it is a peerreview university terms going, for example, into research committee, maybe not totally in terms of what the into tourism, agrifood or some of the other areas of member traditionally accepts as that meaning, but the government 's supposed strategies. I just I say, a peercommittee targeted in the fas hionthat wondered, generally, does the minister have a the Province of Manitoba wants it targeted and to statement on his government's policies in the areas that it holds as the higherpriority, or does research? she want complete hands off so that the peer

Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, to the review committee can do as it chooses, because extent that we can, again, influence the direction then I say there is an inconsistency there in a into the areas that are mentioned, we will. significant fas hion. So, yes, this committee is-it is not the dictates of the government that are The member talks about $10 million. That was directing funding. It is much more than that. from the proceeds of the sale of Manitoba Data (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Deputy Chaitperson, Services. We putposely set thatup so it would not in the Chair) end up just being swallowed in the large Consolidated Revenue Fund of thegovemment It Examples of the members in that committee: took us some time to put criteria into place for the John Wade, Dean Laliberte, Faculty of whole community to agree on the criteria in place. Engineering-we all know who John Wade is­ They are inplace now, and the money out of that fo rmerly Dr. Marsha Hanen andTerry Hogan. Mr. fund is, I understand, beginning to flow. I would Acting Deputy Chaitperson, I would sense that May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2593

these are individuals who bring, obviously, a the Faculty of Management? Has be indicated to strongperspective to any consideration. the Faculty of Management what his concerns are about theircurre nt inability, as be sees it, to meet AsI point out, some of thefunding bas gone into the needsof smallbu siness in Manitoba? Does be helping supportchair a for the aerospace industry. anticipate any discussions with the Faculty of That is in keeping withthe focus. Some other part Management over his concerns? What does the of the funding I understand bas gone into support minister believe that be bas got for those targeted ofTRLabs which ties into thetelecommunications dollars that have been spent in the Faculty of thrust, information systems. So I say to you that Management, andhave they beensatisf actory? therebas to beconsistency here. I sense havewe in place a process that attempts to address Mr.Manness : Certainly the faculty, in support of consistency. the agreement, bas tabled with us a report on a yearly basis. Let us again indicate for the record Ms. Friesen: I think the minister is right, that why it is that we entered into this agreement with indeed there are university people from two or the faculty. We did so, bearing in mind that our three disciplineson thatlarger committee.I amnot Faculty of Management bad a very low ranking, so sure ifthe minister checkedmany bow of them, almost near the bottom with the proportion of in fact, areon committee whichdistributes the the students in administration, commerce and grants or at least sits in judgment on the grants. management. We sensed that there was obviously course,necessaril y-you can Peer review is not, of some problem, andthat is why we entered into the have peerreview within guidelines that abroader agreement four years. This lastyear, or thisyear, group sets, but you do have a much broader '94-95, is the first year when the general grant to experience when you bringin people from outside the University of Manitoba also covered the and people who are particularly specialists. designated amountto go to thatfa culty. Canadabas created one of thebest system s, I think, in the world of peer review, very inexpensive to Ms. Friesen: The minister indicated be believed the university should do more for small business. run. People give of theirtime voluntarily over and over again inthese review peer systems. It is not a Has be conveyed that concern to the Faculty of Management, andwhat response basbe received? difficult system to run. Whenwe met with I, T and T, as acaucus, I wasvery concerned about thelack �·. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, of peerreview in thesekinds of grants, giventhat thisIS not a Faculty of Management issue. Thisa is this is the major focus of the government's university issue. That is like saying the researchprogram in grants. Department of Education should be the only I wanted to ask the minister to look at another department interested in education for the area of university grants, where the government government of Manitoba. That is nonsense. The bastargeted certain areas, and that is in theFaculty reality is, the whole government basto bethrough of Management Over a number of years, the last all of its departments, and I dare say that all the faculties at theuniversity also have to buy into the four years, I believe, thegovernment bastargeted a eotporate model of understanding bow important particular sum of money in one or two different wealth generation is in our province. pockets to the Faculty of Management I wonder if thegovernment bas looked at the results of that. It • (1520) seemed to be the one area that the minister was Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Acting concerned badnot been--where the university bad De�ty OlairpeiSon,I have a numberof questions not been fulfilling its needs, the community's which are actually identical to the member for needs. Wolseley's, so I do not think there is going to be Has the minister asked for a report from the much point in repeating the questions, and I have Faculty of Management? Does be have liaisons been listening to what the minister's responses through the Universities Grants Commission with have been. 2594 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

I did want to go back to a comment that the look at further reductions, that we look at cuts minister had made on Wednesday evening when across the board, or has he done a form of we were in a discussion about funding to prioritization exercise withinthe entire sections of universities andthe decision by the University of the department to determine if in fact some Manitoba andprobably by Brandon University to sections would keep their budgets intact, some impose what results in an increased tuition fee might look at furtherreductions, et cetera? above andbeyond the percent5 cap. Theminister, in thatgeneral discussion, also spokeof, or did not Mr. Manness: It is for the most part not a rule out potential clawbacks throughout the departmental call. It is, if indeed having gone remaining of thisfiscal year, and those clawbacks throughthe exercise andleading the exercise, very might beinitiated bythe now-Minister of Finance much a call of the Treasury Board. These are extraordinary measures that no government and (Mr. Stefanson). certainly no minister likes to find themselves I am wondering if the minister has any engaged in the process of having to find these indication at all as to,when wemove towards the numbers, but I cantell anybodywho wants to hear fall, which I guess we would be into the third that it is not a minister's discretion that comes to quarter, if in fact there might be a move by the the fore. It iscertainly a largerpolicy decision than Minister of Finance to look at further cuts across simply a department's. departments, including thatof Education. Ms.Gray: Mr.Acting Deputy

of the global. We have put in an additional over governmentdelivers theserv ice,I thinkthere are a $100million into Educationover the course of the number of areas that can be looked at in some of last sixor seven budgets. Nobody bas to state the the departments. high priority that this government has given to Mr.M anness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not Education. know who gives the member her advice. I do not I was the Minister of Finance when these know who she may have beentalking to inside of decisions were made globally and the allocations government over the course of the last six years. between departments. I dare say that Education Why do you think the MGEU is running ads wasalways given a very highrating. I do not think today? They are running ads, for the most part, will that change reganlless of who theplayers are, becauseof thenumber of people we have takenout Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson. of administration. No government in the land has Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, the taken out more of the bureaucracy than we have. question is foollwdynot because it is a matter as a The members opposite, including the Liberal Minister of Education or as a minister of any Party, have voted against us. We have taken out department how you decide on budget allocations approaching 15 percent of the total civil service. and whether you support general reductions. I Most of it were in administrative areas,most of it asked thequestion because when we arelooking at in administrative areas. cuts across the boud as we have seen with this The member can look at the communications government andin the various departments, I think budget from what we inherited. We have done it is not a way to go. everything to keep the programming, but the The minister, the other evening, spoke very administrative side is where we have chopped. highly of the fonnerPremier of this province, the Why do you thinkPeter Olfert and MGEUthe are Honourable DuffRoblin, andtalked about himas a running these ads today? Oh, it is under the guise leader of education. One of the firstwords out of of programming. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is his mouth during the press conference when he not That is because most of the hits have beenin presented the recommendations of the Roblin the administrative areas, midmanagement areas. commission was to say that cutbacks across the boud lead to mediocrity. I happen to agree with • (1530) himon that Thatis why I was asking theminister We have gonethrough thedepartment where we about these wholesale cutbacks that we seem to did a reorganization on the program development see. side and, again, criticism at thistable , why it is we (Mr. Deputy Chairperson in theOlair) let midmanagement go. So the opposition cannot Now the minister basasked what suggestions do have it both ways. We have taken millions of I have. One of the things that you need to look at dollars out of communication. We have taken a throughout your departments is the incredible thirdof the carfleet out. We have taken a thirdof waste of resources that is spent on having middle the space out, theleased space out.So what sidedo people having to deal with anything related to the Liberals want it?They criticize uswhen we try space, car, communications and buildings with to downsize government in its administrative Government Services. There is a lot of waste of sense, and the member has the gall to come here resources and time that is spent on that particular andsay, you have not done enough. Yet, when we issue where you could have departments taking do more her Leaderstands up andattacks us for not more responsibility for some of the decisions that having done enough, not balancingthe budget. Yet have to be made in that areaSo I would be quite the members opposite, every move we make they preparedto discuss thatfurther with theminis ter. say, well, why did you do that andwhy do you not So when you talk about changes to government put more money into solving the problem. Surely and how government delivers service or what to goodness there is some incumbency upon the 2596 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

members of the Liberal Party to be consistent. Mr. Maoness: There are only three ways an Surely,there must be. outside observer can pass judgment as to the difference of views represented by themember for Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Cbaitperson, the Minister Crescentwood and myself: throw away all the lip of Education asked for some ideas of where I service, all the BS around priorities; look at the thought there could be some more efficiencies leasecosts of government, look at thecar fleet; and withindepartments . I gavehim some suggestions, look at the number of centralizations that have and then be goes on, to me, to seem to implicate occurred including communications-the only that in fact there are all these great efficiencies in threeob jectivesto beable to decide whether or not government. Ifyou did a survey of probably allthe we have done anything on the administrative side civil servants just in this room alone and asked to try and remove some of the overlap and them about efficiencies in government, they could duplication, which I accept exists in government, probably write you pages andpages of things that existed in a big way when we took over canbe done differentlyin government. government and, yes, still exists in some small The minister talks about administrative places now. I say when you look at those three efficiencies. Someof thepositions that have been areas and you look at the measurement of those cutprovide direct service to people. We may agree three areas, vis-�-vis other governments, you will to disagree on the definition of administration. get a handle as to whether or not this is a fat Even within the Department of Health, which is bureaucracy or not. what I am more familiar with, some of the Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am not going to sit positions eliminated are direct delivery. They are here andsay we are fata bureaucracy, because we not administrative positions. The odd clerical arenot As a matter of fact, when you look at the support position is gone, but as far as actually number of civil servants on a per capita basis we eliminating departments or sections of rank in the low quarter. When you look at the departments, we have not seen a lot ofthat. dollars spent on the communications side we rank low. Whenyou look at the number of individuals Mr. Maoness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have or you look at theleasing costs we ranklow. I bad spent 20 hours, or close to it, on World'orce 2000 to state that for the record. between the NDP and the Liberals. The basic thrustof that coming from the opposition-ifyou Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am not believe in this program then havemore resources about to get into discussion with the minister on in place , more people in place to do the these issues because I think, first of all, the monitoring, to do the evaluations. That is all Chairperson will call me to order about the particular line we are on, but I would be quite administrative, andthat doesnot deliver programs. prepared to, atsome other point, sit down with the 1be members cannot have it both ways. I am not ministerand talk aboutthe role of Treasury Board going to let them have it both ways, not idly and what kind of a role they play for looking at anyway. efficienciesin government. Ms. Gray: Mr. DeputyChairperson, I do not think I wanted to make a couple of comments about the minister and I are disagreeing necessarily on the Roblin commission and the minister's pending what constitutes administration or where there announcement onthe Roblin commission. I, again, need to be changes. My only point is that I would thinkthe memberfor Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) asks hope the minister is not complacent about the fact a verypertinent question when she asks why there that we need to look at where we can create more was a decision made to look at no more than a S efficiencies within some of the departments, so percent increase in tuition fees when clearly the that where resources can go to Education and first financial recommendationin the Roblin report Health, important programs, that they do go to was to talk about a freeze in tuition fees until a those particular areas. number of other issues were sorted out I guess I May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2597

would ask the minister-! am making the budgetary process much sooner, and so then we assumption that his response to the Roblin willhave to beout of sessionmuch sooner because

commission has already been determined and right now the process starts, I do not know ifthe probably was determined before his budget was memberknows it or not, inSeptember. So, if she is finalized. Isthat correct? dictating then that we begin to start in July in supportof tryingto make allof the publicly funded Mr. Manness: No, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that recipient groups, providing infonnation tothem by is not true. We have been worldngfor thebest part the middle of January, then we, again, by necessity of two and halfa months now developing a fonnal wouldhave to begin thatprocess much sooner. response to the Roblin report, and the budgetary decisions weremade not in total isolationfrom that • (1540) process. Certainly the university funding and Ms.Gray: Interms of startingthe budget process global announcement and decision were made in sooner, we have not sat for eight months. There is the context of thefiscal framework of the province. no reason why we could not begin sitting sooner Ms. Gray: One of the recommendations in the and hear a budget from this government sooner. I Roblin commission, albeit a smaller one but know the process startsin late summer, early fall, certainly one which the various faculties and and usually the departments have made their schools atthe universities have difficultywith and, recommendations to Treasuryby Board some time in fact, feel thatthey could be much moreefficient in November, which, oftentimes, is the deadline. with their current resources if this change was So perhaps that is something that the Department made orif there was apromise kept in termsof the of Education andthe minister in conjunction with date within which they know what their budget his colleagues need to review in terms of the allocations are going to be-in the Roblin process, andwhen we sit, when we hearbudget as commission, it talks about January 15 as a opposition, when we have an opportunity to go reasonable time. through spending Estimates, andwhen we have an Can the minister, without going into what his opportunity to passbudgets, which is all partof the announcements are going to be, tell us if this is cycle, even though universities have some something that will be possible through the understanding of what their budgets are going to Department of Education that universities will bebeforehand. I thinkthe universities arecertainly have an earlier indication of what their budget very interested in trying to be as efficient as they allocations are? can,knowing thatdollars aredepleting. Of course, there are very many reasons for this. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I amnot Universities certainly plan far ahead and are going to sit here and take that statement either. I already planninginto the next school yearin terms mean, as the Minister of Finance, I have brought of the programs and the calendars they develop, down budgets one to six, but particularly four, five looking at teaching resources, allocation of and six. After there was a majority government, teaching resources, et cetera, and sothe longer it is there was not a province in Canada over those delayed in terms of their ability to plan, it costs the three years that brought out budgets sooner than am system more money. So I wondering if that is the Province of Manitoba. The reason I am that one recommendation the minister feels could sensitive is because theLeaderof theLiberal Party be considered in terms of them knowing their (Mr. Edwards) had the gall to get up and say we allocation by January 15, thedate that is suggested. were missing the forecasted revenue. One of the Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are reasons we missed the forecasted revenue is trying to study that, but bear in mind if all the because webrought those budgets out so early and discretionary decisions are made by January 15, if the fe deral government did notcome out till after everybody wants to have their commitment made us, andhad we hadthe fullknowledge at what the early, then we are going to have to start the federal government was estimating then, 2598 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

obviously, we would have been better off. So here As I made reference the other night, for we have a Liberal critic criticizing us for not governmentsjust to impose theirwill it isgoing to bringing down the budget quickly enough, her cause a reaction from the university. So it isgoing Leader is criticizing it for bringing it down too to have tobe apretty wide consolidative approach quickly and not having the full knowledge of the here, but ifwe aregoing to move on-I mean, right revenue side. They cannot have it both ways. today you have the government of Alberta or at least the University of Alberta that is prepared to Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, the field out dentistry requirements. So some minister has presented both sides of the coin. provinces or universities or a combination of the Which one doesbe prefer? both are making unilateral decisions and are Mr. Manness: I prefer to bring it down in the moving out of the higher-cost areas and wanting middle, just like theLiberals always say. They like somebody else to provide that training. We are to do things in the middle. I guess that is what I embalked upon the process of seeing whether we prefer. can do some trading, but, again, the question is, who is going to take the lead in it. At this point Ms. Gray: I wanted to ask some questions, again, governments are beginning to broach the subject, the recommendations of the Roblin commission, but obviously the university communities are and the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) has going to want to have some significant input into certainly asked a number of questions. So it has thisalso. been interesting listening to the minister's responses. I wanted to ask a question in regard to Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was not the four universities in this province and also the sure by the comment or the tone of the minister's universities throughout the prairie region and response, is the minister suggesting that the universities arenot prepared tolook at these types probably the Lakehead as well. What type wolkof of co-operative ventures or are they very much is being done to look at co-operation amongst the interested in doing this, and is the government universities in tenns ofnot just looking atpotential going to be taking some initiative to get the for savings when it comes to purchasing of universities togetherto explore what canbe done? supplies and services, but as importantly looking at, sort of, from theLakehead to atleast the end of Mr. Manness: I invite the member to ask them the Alberta border, British Columbia border, andsee. I really do. Onher own, and thenshe can which universities provide which types ofleaming answer the question. Rather thancoming through situations, which types of courses, which my lips let the universities speak for themselves. opportunities for graduate studies? Is there any Ms. Gray: Well, actually I have talked with the formal mechanism that is in place that is president of the University of Manitoba on that addressing these issues? subject, and I have talked with the president of the Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, officials University of Winnipeg on that subject, and within certain departments, Western certainly both of those individuals in discussions Diversification from the federal side, andwith our indicatedthat there wasroom for co-operation and Departments of Education, and Industry and to look at those kinds of issues. Trade, are beginning to put into place a process to One individual also talked about where there discuss what tradeoffs could be put into place, was room for looking at some of the core subjects bearingin mind that the premiers in meetingjust a that are currently being offered at the University of week ago in Gimli also addressedthis issue. I point Manitoba and the University of Winnipeg and out that in these specialized areas there hasbeen a actually exploring more opportunities for some history of sharing. It has wolked out reasonably sharingof those. Now I know the Faculty of Artsat well. But, until the universities also buy into this the University of Manitoba is engaged in some process, it isgoing to be very difficult. sharing of studies with the University of May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2599

WIDDipeg, the Women's Studies programfor one. government mandate to look at some of these So I know thatsome of thatis going on. ventures. However, I think that governments do have a role to provide leadership in having the I guess I would askif, from the minister's point universities look at some of these issues, and I of view, does he feelthat there ismore opportunity think when you look at the experience of for that type of sharing of resources amongst just co-operation and what we are seeing that is the universities in Manitoba and also, what occurringin theMaritime provinces some willsay opportunities are there for that for sharing of that the reason for bow theyhave moved ahead in resources and looking at some further centres of that area is because of interest, motivation and excellence across the prairie region including the leadership by the Premiers of thoseprovinces and Lakehead? some of their senior officials, i.e., deputy I also wanted to ask the minister about the ministers. I thinkthat, again, sure universities can Dental College and their accreditation here. I am do this andget together, and they are starting to, assumingeither be knows, or does hehave thest aff but I thinkif they also recognize thatit is seen as here that can perhaps respond to a question of important and necessary from the government of status of the Dental College accreditation at the the day,that adds to perhaps what canbe done in a University of Manitoba? certainperiod of time.

Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, certainly membertalks about, or atleast comments or asks my predecessors have indicated bow important questions on two different issues. Firstly, with that process be. The member can talk about respect to greater co-operation. I would be co-operation in Maritime Canada or Atlantic overjoyed if the universities canwork towards Canada. We know there is anawful lot ofdialogue greaterco-operation. I do not know why it takes a going on and certainly there is some good will at mandate fromthe government though to bringthat thesenior level, in otherwords, the Premier level. about. Imean, that says thatcommon sense cannot exist to therealization that, certainly,if everybody I am very mindful of what happened in Nova is a little bit stronger in one discipline, then Scotiawhere theybad 11 degree-granting faculties obviously the whole province isbetter off. of education. That was talked about for 15 years, and finally the government bad to put down the So I amencouraged to bearthat thepresidents of hammer. So nobody is going to tell me that this the universities are accepting of the challenge, process of co-operation and talk just comes because that will be the challenge that I will be because the government points to it being a nice putting to them, most definitely, when I comment thing. It is bardbecause for every winnerthere is a on theRoblin report. loser, and,of course, it becomesthen thechallenge Of course, it takes a lot more than presidents, to find out, to minimizethe number of people who does it not? It takes heads of faculties. It takes­ are negatively impacted. That becomes the because there bas been an awful lot of delegation challenge. and diffusion of power within the university • (1550) setting andsomebody there is, not at the highlevel necessarily but at the levels below, going to have I say thatuniversities are in ever so much better to buy into that process too and I hope there is position to findthe healthier solution ascompared co-operation at that level. Because ifthere is, then to governments everywhere across the land who we can meaningfully move to this area of greater have bad a bands-off approach to our university focus of excellence, greater sharing of resources, institutions to impose, because that would not,

leading to, I think, a higher quality education at a obviously, work very well. cost thatthe taxpayers canafford. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess I get Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it does not the impression-! am quite prepared to be wrong necessarily take initiative of government or -that the minister does not have a lot of faith in 2600 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

the universities and theirability to look at someof minister is aware, and I am not sure which these areas. It is almost like the minister has province it is, but Saskatchewan and Alberta, I writtenthem off in termsof theuniversities ' ability believe theyare both closing down, orone already to get together and actuallyproduce a vision that has, their dental colleges, and so that leaves the would really lead to some new areas of University of Manitoba at least with an co-operation amongst universities in the province opportunity to look at what kinds of servicesare of Manitoba and also across theprairie provinces. going to continue to provide. I had heardthat the I hopeI amwrong in that. dental college was stillhaving a lot of difficulty in Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the terms of meeting the standards for accreditation, member is dead wrong on that. I mean, the and that there was some concern that either the challenge I willbe putting out to univeiSities to do condition had to be extended or there was still just that, but whenI do putthat challenge it willbe some indecision interms of where they stand. interesting to hear how the member chooses to I guess one of my questions as well was, does criticize me atthat point intime, or asto whether I the minister or his department feel that with that have given enough time or not enough time. I infusionof moneythat occurred a numberof yem imagine there will be a criticism in there ago, do they feel that it was able to assist the somewhere, but thatwill be the challenge to our college in making the changes necessary to univeiSities. actually meet the accreditation standards ? Now, Mr. Deputy Chai!peiSon, the memberhad Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy ChairpeiSon, I cannot a question dealing with our dental college and engage in a meaningful dialogue on this issue. I accreditation with respect to our dental college. cantell you thatwhen I sense that Alberta moves Themember is going to have tobe alittle bit more out of thisarea of instruction,says it to me that it is specificin herquestion. so costly they decided that there is greater Ms.Gray: Mr.Deputy Chai!peiSon, thefac ulty or efficiency associated with buying the spaces they the dental college at the University of Manitoba, I need somewhere else than putting into place a understand wasunder aconditional accreditation, system thatto has betaxpayer supported to such a and, in fact, there was an infusion of government large de gree. money and I am not sure which fiscal year. It is I do not know how we could find ourselves in a probably two yem ago now, I amnot sure . better position, unless we made sure we got Mr. Manness: Longerthan that. absolute full cost out of students and supporting Ms. Gray: Longer than that, the minister says. governments from outside, and we can build an Too, I am assuming a system in meeting the economic unit, but obviously, the university and standardsrelated to accreditation.I undeiStandthat theFaculty of Dentistrywould know betteron this. the college is-are they still under a conditional I would have to thinkthey are preparing a plan in accreditation, or has that been changed or response to what Alberta and other provinces are upgraded, and hasthere beentime a frame that has doing. been put on that accreditation in terms of their Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, has the upgrading from conditional to whatever the term ministerhad discussions with Brandon University would befor regularaccreditation? in regard to their proposal to look at a

Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will baccalaureate nursing program and to do that in have to return with that information. I sense conjunction with the Brandon General Hospital nothing has changed, but I will try and provide nursing program and the Grace Hospital nursing more definitive information. program?

Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy ChairpeiSon, one of the Mr. Manness: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, reasons I also asked that question is, I am sure the this is an issue that will be dealt in a formal May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2601

manner, at least for the firstviewing, I understand universities and special kinds of programs and by theboard, the commission at theirnext meeting. funding, we are looking at that oftentimes for individuals who, asthe minister hasindicated, are Ms. Gray: One of the recommendations in the disadvantaged, and there have been systemic Roblin commissionalso talked about the ACCESS barriers tothose individuals going touniversi ty. fundsbeing maintained. Is the minister suggesting that over time those I am wondering in this announcement that is systemic barriers change and in fact we can coming up with the minister in regard to remove them or theyhave beenremoved? implementation strategies, is he going to be addressing the issue of accessibility to university • (1600) programs for students, including those individuals Mr. Manness: Mr.Deputy Chairperson, since the who rightnow may begoing to universitythrough beginning of time, there have been systemic what is considered theACCESS program. barriers, and to the end of time, there will be Is he going to be doing that in light of the systemic barriers. Thatis a given.So thereality is, recommendation from the Hikel report which it is whereyou choose anypoint in time by way of talkedabout a concern over instability of funding governmentpolicy to focus . I read Roblin to say, andthat thatwas one of the factors thatled to some look, once you have done your focushere , let the difficulties in the objectives of theprogram being funding needed then. to maintain that level of met? programmingcome through the general grant,but then let us shift your focus. Keep shifting your Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, again, this is an area where we are trying to present focus afterfo ur or five years. So you cantry and do then more thanjust focus foreverand a day in one ourselves with various options. AsI point out, as I read the Roblin report, what it said was there area, because the dollars arenot going to be there to let you do everything. They never have been in certainly is a place for ACCESS funding in a will fostering sense. the past; they never be in the future. Keep it evolutionary. Keep it changing. In otherwords, it should have a finiteperiod of time; it should have a finite program period of Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, does the time. Then once it has done its job of fostering, report through Peat Marwick then refer to the definedthree in , four or fiveyears, then the general findings of the ACCESS program that talk about funding from that should be part of the general changes that those programs have seen in terms of allocation. That is the way I readthe Roblin report. the type of students who are entering those Then that ACCESS fund should then move to programs andwho requirefinancial assistance? another priority still with that same level of I mean, I would think we are always going to funding. Becauseindeed it wasto introduce,it was have students who are disadvantaged financially to makeknown, it was to reach out, itwas to try because of socioeconomic background and some and tice,en but onceit haddone thatover a period cultural factors, and there is always going to be of years, it was then to move on to a new area of needfor governments to provide programs, albeit programming. It was not to be locked into they maybe change in nature but provide programs concrete, saying well, this programming is here to assist thoseindividuals inaccessing universities now, we will build on this andbuild, build, build. the sameway other individuals do. That was my understanding of what Mr. Roblin Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not and his commission were saying. It was to foster know what the member-I sense that in reading systemic change. the two reports, what the Roblin commission was Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, theminister talking about wasthe realization that the university is going to have to explain what he has said with its good funding and outreach,this supported because I do not quite understandwhat heis trying aswe know at a very high cost by the public purse, to tell me, because when we look at access to should bemaintained but not the actualprograms 2602 LEGISLAnvEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

that we know today being maintained from this which assistsManitobans and Canadiansto remain level of funding. It should shift, stillwith anaccess competitive in world madcets. bent,trying to reach out tothose who, for whatever I am using the language of the University of reason, are disadvantaged, but some of the Manitobaplan, a language which I amsure is dear programs-ENGAP andBUNTEP, of course, but to the minister's heart: to remain competitive in some of the others-those programsper se should world madcets and tofacilitate the productivity of not be locked into at thebeginning of time under Manitoba manufacturing and processing thislevel of funding, thatit should maybe, ifit is a industries. 1beuniversity strengthens the faculty 's goodlevel of programming, afterthe fostering has contribution through the introduction of a Ph.D. takenplace , thelevel of support for theseprograms program in Agricultural Engineering and through should come under the general grant to intensified co-operation with the Manitoba universities. Letthe , theAC CESS,move fundthen Department of Agriculture� The Food Science into a new area of obvious shortcoming and components of the present Agriculture degree disadvantagedstatus. program will be enhanced and become a separate What Hikel was talking about was that, under degree program in recognition of the growing the existing level of programming he is saying if public concerns about the safety and quality of you aremaintaining them,then you have to look at food. the eligibility criteria. You have to take into I wonder ifthe minister could tell us why the account the demands where the community has proposal for the program in Food Science dealing -the demands. He spoke also about the level of withthe safety andquality of food, a proposal for a what should be expected by way of loanversus a B.Sc. in Food Science in the Faculty of totally free level of education and other issues Agriculture, has been turned down by this dealing more so with access as we have known it government underthe I, T and Tgrants. over thepast. Mr. Manness: I cannot answer the question, Mr. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I look DeputyChaitperson. forward to the minister's response to that report and the Roblin commission. The Roblin Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, does the commission also does speak to community minister see this as one of the areas where the colleges andtheir role , but I thinkit makessense to university could be contributing to the rural discuss those recommendations aswe get into the community thathe spoke of earlier? section on Community Colleges. Mr. Manness: We do not know what the member is talking about with respectto I, T and T grants. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chaitperson, I want to come back to research, which is one of the Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I distinguishing characteristics of universities understandthat theminister doesnot have hisstaf f, compared to, for example, vocational schools, and the I, T and T staff,here entirely, but I have seen a I wanted to pursue with the minister-he did not proposal that went-[interjection] Well, yes, he seem to be able to articulate a research policy on doeshave one in part. But I have seen the proposal the part of his government, and yet seemed to from the Faculty of Food Science, and I believe sense, he articulated in a global sense but he they did apply for a grant to the I, T and T certainly gave the example of the University of $10-million program and wereturned down. Manitoba,that theresearch, the university, was not Mr. Manness: That, as I said earlier, EITC, the meeting the needs of the community of Manitoba. Economic Innovation Technology Council is an I wanted to ask him about two particular arm 's-length council of government, and they examples. One is the Faculty of Agricultural and make decisions accordingly with all the FoodSciences, one of the appliedscience faculties information thatis broughtto bear.Nobody at this which I am sure the minister is familiarwith and table hasinfluence or is part of that decision. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2603

Ms.Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, well, I am a research policy that the minister can articulate, looking for theresearch policy of thisgovernment, andwhen I come with the examples or at least an a government which is critical of the university's example where one might have thought that the role in thecommunity. Whenthe university comes government would have responded, it is very with a program iswhich applicable to the kindsof difficultto find out why they have not. What is the goals which the minister has laid out, does not researchpolicy? receive perhaps the encouragement that it had Mr. Manness: Again, I do not know how the anticipated, I think there is some puzzlement on bachelor degree and facthe ulty-whatparallel the thepart of thepeople involved in this. member is trying to draw. I really do not Is she Again, I am trying to understand where the talking about the Faculty of Education or is she ministerwants the university togo. Where arethe talking about the post-secondary emphasis given research policies? Where are the research funds? by that faculty and the research therein? I do not They inare EITC. The ministerhas indicated that know what sheis tryingto draw as apoint. those funds are applicable to the industrial and economic strategies of the government, and yet Ms. Friesen: The point I am making is an when an area which seems directly applicable to innovation, aninnovative approachto theneeds of the government's economic strategies applies to Manitoba to create a program infood en gineering that fund, which isthe only research fundthat the which builds on the existing expertise in the government has apart from the Faculty of Departments of Agricultural Engineering and Management, there is not the response that one Food Science, which, at the time that it was would have anticipated. So I am looking, through proposed and brought to the attention of examples, for a general research policy on behalf government,would have been, I believe, one ofthe of this government earliest in the country. I gather now that Saskatchewan has moved in that area, andso the • (1610) long delays that people have experienced in

Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the dealing with thatEITC $10-million researchfund , member draws a distinction between applied and theonly researchfund this gov ernment has,I think primary or basic research. Certainly EITC andthe have been to the detriment of Manitoba. Again, funding it has focuses on, tends to focus moreon thatis why I amasking, what is theresearch policy innovation, which is closer to pure, primary of this government, which is critical of universities research, but nothing would preventthe university for not meeting the needs ofManitobans? from, and even the Faculty of Agriculture and all of its departments tofocus more so even more on Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the applied research. I am led to believe, out of membertries to putit in such definitive terms.I do roughly $53 million that comes into the University not rememberwhere I have seen this government of Manitoba in research, the faculty commands 9 criticize ouruniversities , to use her terms, for not percent of it. So I donot know how the divisions meeting the needs of Manitobans. I have never are made. Obviously, the outside granting seen that. I have certainly never spoken that. I do organizations have some considerable influence in not know why she states it in that fashion. What this. One of the problems is, maybe everybody has the Roblin report did was focus onwhat research is considerable influence and maybe sometimes the beingdone and whetheror not it waskeeping with government has absolutely none. I do not know the mandate of the government in those areas whether the member supports that or not. which are deemed as of higher priority for the futureprosperity of ourprovince . Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, well, a government which talks about universities Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I still have not becoming more responsive to the economic heard the minister articulate a policy on research strategiesof thisgovernment and yet doesnot have and research fundingin Manitoba. 2604 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

Mr. Manness: This is coming under the wants universities to look at the economic Universities Grants Commission. The member is strategies of itspolicy. asking me reactto toRoblin 's report.have I said I Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the $10 will do that. Themember is asking me, Igather million that the member references is an then, because we fund a significant amount of innovation fund. It is not a research fund;it is an money in general terms to the university, thatwe innovation fund. So let usmake adistinction right dictate where it is researchmoney should go. Oris there andthere. she askingthat we set aside additional funding in The member, again, wants to have it both ways. the Department of Education? If she is asking me We started this, the questioning earlier on this to provide for her the historical and the criteria afternoon, with respect to the powers of the $ around accessing a 1 0-millionfund, thatis not in government vis-l-vis the powers of the my department, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. I am commission vis-l-vis thepowers ofthe board. sorry, I will donot thatbecause I do not have the We were talking about student support service responsibility to do so. fees. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the law says-the Ms.Friesen: Well, I amtrying to understand orto law-with respectto the fees, beit the boardof the establish what the research policy of this University of Manitoba-pardon me-the legal government is for universities. One of the things basis for the setting of fees by the University of which sets offuniversities from other institutions Manitoba set out in the Powers of board section is the role of research, both in an international 16(1)(c): fixand detennine allfe es andcharges to sense, in a nationalsense andin a regional sense. bepaid to the university. The minister has a Universities Grants With respectto operating grants, the law isvery Commission. After many years, the government specific, and I will not quote chapter and verse, finally established a review of universities, and which says that the Universities Grants Commission should provide operating support to yes, we are looking at thatline. I am looking for the universities. some response on what the role of the UGC or what therole of the governmentis in establishinga I do not know what it is the member is asking researchpolicy? The RoyalSociety of Canada, for for. Isshe askinghow it isthat we should dictate to example, has recently suggestedthat theprovin ces boards, either through moral suasion and through take a much greater role in fundingof research. It some clawback, that they engage in a certain is a proposal-[interjection] Not necessarily. It greaterpriority of researchin a number ofareas, or said a greater role, and there may be some isshe dictating that we find more money to direct to the areasthat we sense are the more important? indicationin their reportof a different assigning of Themember and her questioning is allinept. values with thefed eral government orwith federal granting agencies. She is asking me to come up with, I guess, a statement. I senseshe is reaching for a statement, a So those arethe kindsof things that I amlooking research-related statement as to what we want to has at. The minister indicated thatthe universities see universities do. How much closer canwe come must direct themselves more to the economic than that provided within the Framework for strategies of the government. All right. Research Economic Growth released by the Premier (Mr. direction andresearch monies isone areain which Filmon)? The member is very confusing in what the government cansuggest that to theuniversi ties. sheis trying to do. Theonly research fund this that government has I mean, so she· does force me to state the has been that $10 million assigned annually to importance of research in a number of areas. I EITC. I am trying to draw from the very slender would have to thinkthat her next question is, how evidence, from the single fund that seems to exist, much money are you going to put toward that-at what the researchpo licy isof a government which least I would think that would be the logical next May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2605

question-and are you going to take it out of the 6.(aX3) Access$640, Fund 000. operating orare you going to force the Universities Ms.Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, thisAccess Fund Grants Commission to separate its operating grant refers to facilities for disabled students, I into research, and if you do that-I mean, the understand. member is going to have to be much more definitive. • (1620)

I know itis bardfor themember at times to come Mr. Manness: No, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this down to the real world and remove some of the is a fund where universities apply for very jargon. That isdiffi cult at times, but it iscalled for short-term projects. As a matterof fact,I think we atthis point. have issued a letter of call just recently for next Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, I do not think we year asking again for the universities to come need those kind of personal comments. I have forward for applications. These again are of very asked for a research policy. I have spoken of shortduration. specificexamples which have beeninnovative and Ms.Friesen: Could theminister indicate what the which have approached the only research fund criteria arethen for those applications? which thegovernment seems tohave . Mr. Manness: Yes, the objectives of the fund are What I was looking for was, yes, in fact, a twofold: one, to support projects which would statement. Yes, in fact, the application of some change or improve theways in which universities thought, some long-range planning in conjunction deliver services in order to make them more with the Universities Grants Commission or accessible to students from underrepresented through the Universities Grants Commission for groups-mature, aboriginal, visible minorities, the kind of research which the government would disabled and female students; and secondly, to be looking for from universities, sincethe Roblin change existing services and activities so that a commission has criticized the universities and broader range of students are admitted to since there are certainly national concerns about universities. the futureof research in thiscountry. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chailperson, I remind Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, it is my understanding that thatmoney basbeen used in the the member, firstof all,what we did totry to do in a small way on the taxation incentive side with past primarily for---6hallwe say in therecen t past, respect to research and development, what the anyway, the last couple of years-changes to federal government before this present one has buildings and for structural changes to done, andindeed what the province has done with accommodate handicapped students. Is that the respect to research and development. We have case,or bas it been used in fact for programs for tried to provide some offset, some amount against mature students aswell? tax payable for those companies which are Mr. Manness: Lastyear's pro jects, including the engaged in research and development and/or go University of Manitoba: aboriginal law program, elsewhere to seeit supported. $48,000; women and science in engineering, So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, nobody has to $55,000; disability services computer services, impress upon us the importance of that whole $140,000. dimension of activity at the university. At the University of Winnipeg: ongoing access Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? initiatives-and I do not have a breakout on that. Pass. [interjection] Oh, yes,I rememberthis, the visually impaired labs up on the higher floors there, 6.(aX1)(b) OtherExpen ditures $113,1�pass; yes-and the writing program, the University of (c) Grants in Lieuof Taxes $18,291,100-pass. �innipeg, $203,000. That was the largest single Item6.(a)(2) Grants $195,320,400-pass. Item. Integrated student services $30,000, for a 2606 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

subtotal at the University of Winnipeg of Columbia, as aresult of a court challenge, hasbeen $234,000. required to provide signing for one particular BrandonUniversity put $80,000 into the Rural student to attend all classes at the university at a Development Institute, $12,500 into the Rural cost, I believe, to the University of British Development Institute scholarship, and the open Columbia of $40,000 for that student. campus initiative, $7,500, for a $100,000subtotal It is a judgment which has led to considerable for Brandon University. anxiety on campuses across the country because of The College Universitaire de Saint Boniface: its financial implications, and I wonder if the special services to students, i.e., promotion, minister, through the Universities Grants resource centre, professional development, Commission, in their role as policy advisers, has $75,500. perhaps looked atthis and looked atthe impact on If you were to add all of the subtotals, Mr. Manitoba's university systems. It was not Deputy Chaiiperson, you would come to a total of something that I believe DuffRoblin particul arly $653,500. looked at It may have been that the case had not been-the implications of it were not available at Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, some of these that time, but I wondered what steps the minister proj ects then of last yearwould be covered by the was taking to look at this. proposed student services fee of this year. Has the ministerlooked at that? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are trying to follow up on the case, but I point out to Mr. Manness: I do not know on what possible basis that the member canmake that claim. Unless the member that we have put resources to work at she has information she wishes to share with us, I the colleges for several years with respect to certainly cannot agree to herstatem ent. providing signingopportunities and resources, and within Family Services we have vocational Ms. Friesen: I amjust looking atareas of disabled rehabilitation support that finds its way to thisend students where ifit is not building changes, ifit is also. So I hearthe member. We are watching it, but counselling service, then I believe that some of this government, in other areas of outreach, has those were covered in that proposed student certainly tried to provide that resource where it services fee. That might cover also-1 do not know was feasible to do so. specifically the St. Boniface program, the assistance to students-! did not quite get what the Ms. Friesen: I think the issue in this case is minister said-promotion andreso urcesof special looking atit on a system-wide basis, andI do not services. I wondered ifthat might be covered also mean just provincially. I think this is another in thisproposed student services fee . national issue as well, and it is not so mucb-1 am Mr. Manness: These were last year's projects, not here indicating the individual cases in andwe willhave to see whatapplications come in Manitoba, whether or not their needs are being this year andsee whether or not there is anover lap. met. I do not have enough information, in fact, to know that, but I do think this is a long-term Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I planning issue, and it is one that I think the understandthese are done on a project-by-project minister, again, although his reluctance or perhaps basis, so I draw the minister's attention to thatfor frustration at raising issues with the Council of thiscoming year. Ministers of Education, that this seems to be one of I particularly wanted to ask about the disabled the areas to me where vety immediate discussion students and to perhaps get the minister's should be taking place on national planning in this reflections on some ofthe changes that universities area. as a whole are looking forward to as a result of recent court cases, particularly in British Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I accept Columbia, whereby the University of British the comments from the member forWolseley. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OFMANITOB A 2607

Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Shall the item pass? need to be made as a result of this move to Pass. governance? 6.(a)(4)Faculty of Management $1,139,000. Mr. Manness:I would suggest that I do not have Shallthe item pass? -I cannot compare it to the way it was because I Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am was not minister at that time, but certainly I am wondering ifthe minister could elaborate a bit as struck by an incredible enthusiasm by those be to what exactly this money will be used for this mem rs of the boardwho are now, for the first year. I see that there bas been an increase in the time, able to practice governance in a fashion allocationto theFaculty of Management? Doesbe where theycan select the prioriti es. Theycan make have specifics on this? decisions internally without fear of favour or government influence in trying to bold back or Mr.Mann ess:Mr. DeputyChairperson, this is the direct. last year of a five-year agreement It was entered Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, still the into by the community, the government, the government, because it does fund a significant faculty, indeed, the students of the faculty. The portion as you can tell, in this case, seeking broad goals of that agreement were to try and authority for over $40 million, wants to know into double the numberof first-yearstudents or at least what areas the board andtheir senior management double the size of the faculty, I guess is the more wishto take the colleges, andI daresay it probably appropriate term; to introduce a Ph.D. program; bas some veto. Still, there is an enthusiasm there and also to try andincrease the faculty by a count with ttying to develop a vision asto where training of 20, I think, somewherearound that number. should be going andwhere the collegesfit That is (Mr. Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, brought home to me every time I meet with the in theOlair) board. Ms. Gny: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, was So I thinka lot of theadministrative changes that thisfive-year plan then-did it include thefact that were required through the transition for the most there would be increasean in allocation of dollars part over-we have a few months of some minor for the lastyear? Isthat part of theplan? cleanup, but by the time Octoberrolls around, the Mr. Manness: Yes, this was a commitment transition is complete. So it bas been certainly an undertakenby way of contract. onerous exercise, but one which I thinkbas ledto greaterenthu siasm, certainly at the colleges, and I • (1630) dare say, thestudents and society as a whole will The Acting DeputyChairperson (Mr. Reimer): bebetter for it Item 16.6(a)(4) Faculty of Management Ms.Gray: Mr.Acting Deputy Cbaiiperson, one of $1,139,000-pass. the concerns that we bad when the governance Item 16.6(b) Community Colleges (1) Colleges issue first came up was whether it made sense to Secretariat (a) Salaries and Employee Benefits actually have autonomous boards for each $214,200. community college or whether we should look at an overall boardand a structureso thatindividual Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I am colleges fed into an overall board. Does the wondering if theminister bas any comments or any minister have any comments on bow that is form of evaluation of the new changes with the woiking asfar asthe individual boards? move towards community colleges; and, now that they are functioning under autonomous or Mr. Manness: I must say, from a different semiautonomous boards, does be have any perspective I shared some of that view. When comments, now thatwe are into that system, as to government was really coming to grips with that what some of the positives have been or someof policy, bearing in mind that we really went out to the negatives?What are some of the changes that the community at large and got a very strong 2608 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

message from the community that they basically commission comments about increasing wanted to have their own boards, what we did then enrollment in community colleges and allowing is verymuch focus on the administrative side. We for greater role of community colleges aspart of really went to worlc to make sure-the member education in Manitoba, I amwondering in regard and I talked about administrative costs before to outreach of the community colleges and -that there was not a significant overlap and DistanceEducation, is there an overallgovernment duplication as far as materials purchasing and planin regardto expansion of DistanceEducation? property management and all that. We ensured that I ask that because I remember last year or a year stillcame under a common head, and we would not ago in June with the former Minister of Education let the colleges set up these semidepartments we talked a lot about Distance Education and the within their setting. They had to buy those fact that there was a committee of cabinet or that services, as amatter of fact, from the specialnew cabinet in fact was looking at this whole area and operatingagency of the governmentthat used to be there would be a strategy developed. I am the old Department of Government Services. So wondering ifthat strategyhas been developed and we have watched verycare fully theon administrati how specifically the strategy will affect cost to make sure that we do not have an exact community colleges and how they deliver mirrorimage of universities, where you have all of programs and servicesor potentialprogra ms. those high administrative costs built into that. Mr. Manness: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I Ms. Gray: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, we have respondedto thatquestion in another point in have seen with the communitycolleges a move to these Estimates. I know the memberwas not here, and in fairness I will repeat it. Certainly that is what I would callsatellite centres. Parlclands now developing posthaste at this point in time. The has a campus. I think there are some courses that greater focus at this point is within the K-to-12 aredelivered through RusselL Canthe minister tell system, but certainly thereis a strong and growing us, is that adirection that he sees for community involvement by the colleges and their systems colleges that we move towards more satellite people into how we integrate all of our Distance operations of the community colleges here in Education outreach across the whole spectrum, not Manitoba? only K to 12, post-secondary , and not only Mr.Mann ess: Thepurest form of outreach, given Educationbut other services of government. the technology that is coming in, I sense that it We are trying to develop very quickly the certainly will continue to increase, and rightfully integrated model, and there is no question that the so. But a caution hasto be thrown in to all of the post-secondary institutions have a significant role institutions, post-secondary, and I am trying to do to play. I encourage them, as Ido daily, to be part this every time I meet with them: if it is a of a global planning thrust, so that we do not find demonstrated area of need either in course, ourselves moving into a system that is program area and/or in locational area and it can unnecessarilyfraught with overlap andduplication generate significant revenues, that is fine; if it is and all of the inefficiencies that go with having just as an exercise to begin to stake a claim and that type of system developed. protect turf, then I am troubled by it. I am not Ms.Gray: Withthe various boards of community overly troubled at this point with respect to the colleges, is there any structure in place, i.e., the colleges setting up the satellites in their attempt to committee or group that is actually looking at the reach beyond their campus. use of distance education, the use of Internet, and Ms. Gray: The minister talksabout outreach,and also howpublic libraries can play a role, perhaps in that brings me to a question related to Distance lookingsome at Internetservices along with public Education which not only affects the community libraries in conjunction with community colleges college section but other areas of the Department in some of our smaller communities that do not of Education. Certainly, in light of the Roblin have specific access to courses? May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2609

• (1640) articulation between themselves andcolle ges. But the same challenge, whether it is directly worded Mr. Manness: The answer to all of those or not, will go to colleges and ask them, then, to questionsis yes, andI amhoping that I willbe able become leaders amongst greater articulation to to make a fonnal announcement with respect between our students who are in secondary what we do have in place, certainlybefore theend education, either in apprentice training and/or in of theswnmer. vocational training and how it is they take a Ms. Gray: In the Roblin commission, it talked leadership role in bridging thatarea. I would fully about an increasing role for community colleges expect that they would be more than willing to which, I think, is very positive and that the engage themselves in any discussions with community colleges should move towards, I universities as to how there is a greater believe it was, doubling theirenrollment over the co-operation between these two post-secondary course of five yearsor so. levels of institution. (Mr. DeputyChairperson in theair)

colleges and to pick up on the recommendations government is focused with respect to the from theRoblin commission? framewolkfor economic growth. Thisis where the Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chailperson, we are action is going to be. So we have no difficulty going to put into place the general guidelines, as presentingthat, of and, course,that is reinforcedby the government. We will be talking part-time input from the community at large outside of government. So the board, we would expect them programming.We have to addressthat. We have to to take that into account andre act accordingly, and address distance education. We will be talking to thispoint, theycertainly have. about greater articulation, and, of course, we will have to beproviding everywhere we can the same Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the level duringtimes ofgeneral reductions in funding ministertell usthen in regardto the position of the and/or increasing funding beyond the nonn, but government, in terms of their framework for withinthat context, the boanls are going to- economic growth, where do they see the action as being over the next number of years, and where Ms.Friesen: Did you say more money? should community colleges be focusing some of Mr. Manness: They will like this one. Are you their training? going to vote against this one? Thisone is more. Mr. Manness: Well, Mr. Deputy Chailperson, I Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member for am going to read out the list, the same list I read Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) takes issue with the fact out to the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen). that we arepresenting more money to thecolleg es. Those six areas again: aerospace, agrifood I am kind of distressed by that. I thought that I processing, environmental industries, health care, would have herhearty applause. telecommunications andtourism. Those theare six So the reality is that within those general areas that have been targeted within the guidelines andnow given the new freedom thatthe Framework for Economic Growthdocument. boanls enjoy to a degree, andthe greater freedom Ms.Gray : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what kindsof has been in the area of flexibility, to be able to infonnation thenin regard to those sixareas do the change rapidly, then, obviously,we sensethat they universities and, in this case, the colleges have understand theirrole extremely well. access to in regard to how theyplan their courses? Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chailperson, who provides I mean, to list those six areas is all fine and well, input to the community colleges in regard to but there must be accompanying infonnation and long-range planning, andhow willthe courses that documentation in regard to those areas and how it are offered in community colleges, in not just next would assist colleges in looking at specific kinds year, but the next five years, reflect the changing of training that they would wantto perhaps embark needs of what our worldorce requirements arenot on inthose areas. only in thisprovince , but elsewhere? Mr. Manness: Well, through labour market Mr. Manness: This is why colleges are working analysis and sitting down with theexperts in that today, because it is a joint effort. Certainly, we area-the member for Wolseley is laughing atme give them direction, but so does the private sector again, Mr. Deputy Chailperson-and, of course, and so does the community and so does the consulting with the business community at large. business community. 'Ibey have greatinfluence on Of course, there is an expertise there. After all of the boards. So it comes from several directions, this infonnation is distilled and comes forward, this input, but when we sit down, it is no different courses conceptually are put to print. From that, than the answer I gave to themember for Wolseley we look at conceptually what colleges are (Ms. Friesen) when she asked more or less the contemplating. If agreement is reached at our samequestion with respect to universities. level, then the colleges start to begin to develop programming around those concepts. The fact is, we sit down with theboards through our staff and say, look at, this is where the • (1650) May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2611

Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, have the successful conclusion in developing management colleges over, say, the last year, as an example, infonnationsy stems. dropped any courses becausein fact they felt they I also wonder, and maybe the minister can were not relevant or that in fact they were not answer these questions, I have had one particular meeting the needsof Manitobans? course, a pest control course that is through the Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, not last community college, some concerns expressedover that course. Does theminister orhis staffhave any year, but, I mean, I should not, but I will, remind specific infonnation on some of these courses, ifI members of the sig nificant reduction in courses wereto ask those questions , or anyevaluation? that occurredand three fouryears ago. Thatwas, of course,done by design, to a largedegree. Mr. Manness: I cannot recall a letter that I have hadsince I have beenin this office with respect to Ms. Gray: The review on the community college any course. If the member would like to have sector management infonnation system,does the greaterdetail on any course orany question around minister have information as to where that that or issue around a course, certainly, all she has particularreview isat in tennsof process? to do isrequest thatto me in writing and I will try Mr. Manness: Right now the colleges are to provide her with an answer, or a response at studying the feasibility of developing their own least. system. The member is probably aware of that. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is some Ultimately where that will lead, it is too soon to specific questions from one individual in say. particular. I had told the individual I would raise it Ms. Gray: Does the college have access to the in the spending Estimates, but I amnot quite sure other management infonnation systemsthat arein there would be that specific kind of infonnation here. It is in regard to the evaluation of the various stages of development in the other program, andnumber of people registered, mostly departments andsome of thesu ccessesand failures about evaluation and the success rate. I am quite of how to reach an effective management prepared to give those details to the minister and infonnation system? I ask that question because let the staffget back to me at anothertime. some departments have had more difficulty in developing managementinfonnation systems, and I wanted to ask the minister, in regard to the I amwondering if thecollege hasaccess to some of community colleges and the strategicplanning, if the pitfallsto avoid. in fact those colleges, if there actually will be a plan thatis developed that willbe available for the Mr. Manness: I amnot aware of any failure since community, andfor opposition members andother we have beenin govemment. I know there were people within the education field, to actually view several before that with respect to infonnation and to have an opportunity perhaps even for input systems. I am not aware of any, but certainly, as back into thistype of strategic plan? the memberknows, we have had now for several I think of also the business and industry years, a review office within the Treasury Board, community, not that there is an input in the of course, that tries to make sure that whatever colleges and boardsalready, but it isimpossible to mistake has occurred in the past does not occur have all industries and all businesses represented again. So, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, certainly the in this kind of thing, so I am wondering if in fact colleges areusing thatresource tool asthey tryand therewill besome process where a draftdocument study otherdevelopment plans. would be available for peopleand therewould be a Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I probably process for providing input back to the various usedthe wrong wordwhen I said "failure." I meant boards. more difficulties or pitfalls that the Department of Mr.Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson,I believe Health as one have had in actually reaching a they are all worldng on developmental plans and 2612 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

strategic plans at this point in time. I would Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Okay, then with leave, encourage the member to make an inquiry of the we willrefer back. colleges andtry andgive directinput atthat point. Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we do I mean we are encouraging them to do this on not provide any direct funding to private their own, andI do not see where-is themember vocationals, just to the colleges that we are asking us then to intercept a draft, and when we addressing rightnow . reviewit, then to take it ouras own and extendthen Ms. Gray: Theindividuals then whoattend some it to her? I do notknow really what sheis asking. of these colleges such as Robertson College, et Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was asking cetera, where is thefunding provided from? ifthe minister was aware if the boanls andcolleges Mr. Manness: One of three areas: their own would be having a process where they would be support; secondly, student loan; or direct grant asking for input from the community at large in from the federal government or a combination regardto whatthey see as their stmtegic plan. thereof. My other question would be: Does the minister Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, what type of have a sense of what type of time frame the system is in place with a number of these private colleges would be looking at to come up with an colleges to ensure thatthere is not overlap with the initial strategicplan in regardto anexpanding role kinds of programs that are being offered at the of community colleges? community colleges? Mr. Manness: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we Mr. Manness: We try and provide equal require themto have a multiyearplan. Theyhave a opportunity tostudents, andwhere theychoose to number of mechanism consulting going on, I take their schooling-and when I amtalking equal understand, right at this point, so they are opportunity, I am talking loan support, primarily mandated todo this.Although I do not have it with -and where they choose to access or what level, me as to specifically what they are doing right at we aresilent We do not try steerand students one this point in time, certainly, they are engaged in direction oranother. that process right now. • (1700) Ms. Gray: Maybe I can ask the minister, I bad a Mr.Deputy Chairperson:The hour being5 p.m., fewquestions about theprivate vocational schools. I aminterrupting the proceedings of the committee Isthis the appropriate time toask those questions? for privatemembers ' hour. We willresume at eight Mr.Mann ess: It wasactu allrin Section5, but we o'clock. Thankyou. can tryhandle and them, yes. JUSTICE Ms. Gray: I apologize if these questions have Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, alreadybeen answered, but I wonderif the minister please.Will the Committee of Supply please come could indicate what type of monitoring and to order. This section of the Committee of Supply evaluation mechanism is inplace in regard to the will be dealing with the Estimates for the dollars that go to these various private vocational Department of Justice. We are on page 109 in the schools that areregistered with the department. Estimatesmanual. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Before we refer back Would thehonourable Ministerof Justice like to to that,is thereleave of the committee torefer back make anopening statement? to private vocational schools? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice Ms. Friesen: I have no problem with that, but I and Attorney General): Madam Chairperson, I will be asking some questions on colleges when it do have an opening statement. As Minis�er of comes back. Justice andthe Attorney General of Manitoba, it is May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2613

my privilegeto behere to presentthe Estimates for is an essential tool in the enforcement of our zero ManitobaJusti ce. tolerance policy onviolence againstwomen. The facts, figures and data contained in this The court is a direct response to the growing document are at best only a modestindication of public awareness and concerns of violence in the the accomplishments of the department andits home. I am aware that the result of creating this dedicated staff who are responsible for its courthas been an85 percentincrease in caseloads. day-to-day operations. I commend my stafffor It has placed enormous stress on our Crown their ability to meet the challenge of operating a attorneys and our courts, but we are working to government departmentwith such a widerange of address those concerns quickly and responsibilities. The challenge to identify and comprehensively. respond to the needs of thepeople of Manitobais a We continue to monitor thelength of timetaken tremendous one. Manitoba Justice is responsible to process various matters through the courts. The for their safety, their rights and access to a justice most important facthere is that Manitoba has not system sensitive to these needs. had any charges stayed by the courts because of • (1430) undue delay in bringing the accused to trial. The One fact that makes thischallenge moredifficult fact that our domestic violence court exists, that thanit may appearis that society isnot a stationary the judiciacy andCrown attorney arecommitted to entity. It is constantly evolving, adapting and itsconcept, that we have co-operatedso effectively moving forward. To remain relevant, it is to address a specific issue in our community and important that those institutions andstructures that we arebringing theseoffenders into the public which seekto serve societyrespond to thisprocess light issending our message clearly. of change. Manitoba Justice has done more than The Courts Division hasbeen the focal point for simply respond. many other responses by Manitoba Justice to The list of accomplishments by the department community issues and concerns. We are very makes me very proud of what I and many positive about the common offence notice system Manitobansbelieve to beone of themost effective about to beintroduced. Scheduledto begin on June and innovative justice systems in Canada. 13 in Wmn ipeg, thisinitiative will seethe regional Initiatives and programs we have introduced court centres on streamin September of this year. reflect the positive interaction between the The automation of the common offence notice judiciacy, thedepartment andthe community. system willallow forthe electronictransmission of these notices from police to the courts and for all We have taken every step possible to ensure dispositions, notices, trial scheduling and Manitoba's justice system remains flexible and accounting functions to beincluded. responsiveto social concernsand issuesaround us, for example, the establishment of our domestic This new system offers improved control of violence court, with its focus on cases of spouse, tickets provided to policing agencies and offers child and elder abuse. It is unique in North better service to the public by allowing tickets to America and has attracted great interest and bepaid anywhere in the province.The new system numerous inquiries from other jurisdictions. has created internal efficiencies through a redistribution of work and between courts and the The prevalence of violence in our society, Driver and Vehicle Licencing Division that especially with its overwhelming impact on resultedin savings forManitoba. women as the majority of victims, is a major concern. AsMinister of Justice, I have committed OnMay 17, in our continuing effort to improve to working with all the community and our service, the Summary Conviction Court partners in the justice system to curb this trend. I introduced a debit card technology to speed believe thiscourt is one methodof accomplishing customer payment. The Summary Conviction our goal. Dealing exclusively with family violence Court isthe firstgovernment program to offerthis 2614 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

service, andearly repo rts indicate thatit is being The Women's Advocacy Program isexpanding well received. from Winnipeg to Brandon, Thompson and The The Maintenance Enforcement Program bas Pas to serve rural and northern women. An been another area of the courts from which we additional staffpersonwas hired for theprogram in have worked to improve. We have increased the Winnipeg. Other supports we are overseeing staffby five overthe last two years toprocess work include the Child AbuseWitne ss Program andthe faster. Although cases involving payers residing Victim/Witness AssistancePr ogram. We have also out of theprovince are the responsibility of other concentrated on improved information sharing to jurisdictions, we have been taking those actions ensure victims are more fully informed and available to us. Manitoba has been issuingfe deral advised of the developments of their cases. Our garnisheeing orders to secure income taxrefunds, policing andprose cutorial services areincluded in GST credits andother federal monies on behalfof our initiatives. Manitoba residents. The program is taking steps, • (1440) whereappropri ate,to seizeRRSPs andother types of property,to collect maintenance arrears. Manitoba Justice bas co-ordinated the The Family Law branch and the program staff development of protocols for thepolice response will be meeting with community organization to domestic violence. Comprehensive dispatch and representativesand the FamilyLaw barto explore investigation protocols now exist for police. We ways of improving the Maintenance Enforcement have included recruit and in-service training system. Thedirector of FamilyLaw isa memberof programsfor police officerson domesticviolence . the REMO subcommittee established by the We are also providing three education courses Federal/Provincial Family Law Committee to containing family violence components to Crown review legislation and procedures and to attorneys annually. recommend changes to improve the enforcement Manitoba Justice bas devel oped and of intetprovincial maintenance orders. implemented programs for offenders, such as the We are also reviewing our legislation and 12-week mandatory program for sentenced comparingit with otherjurisdictions an in effort to domestic violence offenders. A comprehensive develop initiatives which will help us improve its Corrections protocol bas been developed for the efficiencyand its effectiveness. AsI stated earlier, institutionaland community-basedmanagement of our creation of the domestic violence court bas domestic violence cases. been one method of focusing our resources on a Thedevelopment of additional trainingprogram community concern. In our view, domestic for staff, the establishment of a fam ily violence violence remains a key priority of my department, corrections unit and the delivery of multicultural and we will continue to develop responses to treatment programs for Filipino, Spanish, Polish, address thisissue. Vietnamese, Laotian and Portuguese clients have TheDomestic Violen ce Review bas served as a all improved the correction response to domestic springboard for many initiatives designed to violence cases. Separate initiatives in aboriginal improve the response of our justice system to communities such as Waywayseecappo have also domestic violence cases and violence against been launched to assist them in confronting women. Since the completion of the review, all domesticviolence . sectors of the criminal justice system have implemented significant reforms. In the areaof Other initiatives we are very proud of at victim services, for example, we have improved Manitoba Justice include the development of a fundingfor shelters,crisis centres and committees, women abuse guideline by the College of women's resource centres, treatment services and Physicians and Surgeons for all doctors, along other neededsupports for victims. withhospital prot ocols. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2615

We have introducedamendments toThe Family We arein the processof establishing a gang and Maintenance Act to introduce expartite youth contact line to serve as an initial contact nonmolestation orders. point for youth, parents and victims of violence. Tbephone line will offerin help obtaining various We are covering transportation costs to shelters support services and will help Manitobans who and temporary housing for women and their wishto provide confidential infonnation on youth cbildren. gangs or violent activitiesto police. Manitoba Justice bas been involved in the The Youth Crime Intervention Team is a implementation of educational cuniculafor school multidisciplinary group designed to increase cbildren on domestic violence, and provision bas communication between agencies andconcentrate been made for ongoing judicial education in this intervention efforts on high-risk youth and gang issue. members.The team consistsof police, prosecutors, Tighter restrictions on access to firearms Corrections and cbild welfare officials, educators acquisition certificates and firearms by those and others. The team is currently developing convicted of offences have beenimposed. proposals on client databases and hasidentified a number of initiatives to be undertaken in the Another issue within the province which coming month. Manitoba Justice bas responded to bas beenthe recent escalation in the rate of youth crime. A proposal bas been submitted to the federal Offenders coming into contact with the justice Solicitor General asking the federal Solicitor system aredoing so at youngerages. Obviously, in General to participate in a joint, three-yearpro ject too many Cases,there are severe limitations upon in Winnipeg,we and expecttheir reply shortly. our entire legal system because of the youth of the The provincial Council on Youth Crime is a offenders. Manitoba will continue to worlc with committee of experts established to serve as a federal legislators to help redefine the Young resource to community justice committees, Offenders Act to give us better advantage in neighbourhood-based and community-based dealingwith these cases. groups. Chaired by Mr. Gill Tyrrell, a security consultant and the designer of the successful Crime, youth or adult, is a community-wide Unicity Mall program, it woiks closely with the concern affecting all ages and all sectors of our Corrections Division and willbegin meetings with society. Therefore, all sectors of our society must justice committees outside of Wmnipe g. Meetings be involved in finding the solutions. Tbe Youth have beenheld with Justice committees within the Crime summit hosted by my department in city of Winnipeg. This process will help bring December hashelped us to develop initiatives to recommendations from communities across the confront thisprobl em. province before the committee and Manitoba Manitobahas adopted anaggressive position on Justice for consideration and possible preventing and responding to youth crime and development violence. Our position is one balanced between In February, I stated my intention to seek tougher measures and criminal justice initiatives changes to the Young Offenders Act, to ensure a andcommunity involvement in theprevention and strong legislative base, that the strong legislative theresponse to youthcrime. base existed for the protection of thepubl ic. The summit brought together more than 500 In March, at the meeting of federal, provincial youth, parents, elected officials, agency andtenitorial Ministers of Justice, I presented the representatives, police, teachers and concerned key points of Manitoba's position on refonning individuals to focus on this issue. From this this act. The points are: virtually automatic summit I introduced my department's nine-point transfers of youth to adult court who are charged plan. with serious offences; a presumption in favour of 2616 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

transfer; creating a category of dangerous young resource centre containing research and program offenders; reviewing methods to ensure parental materials on prevention and intervention. The accountability; targeting repeat and heinous consultant also participates as a member of the offendersunder the age of 12 for interventions.My Youth Crime Intervention Team and the departmental officials have been working with Department of Education's violence intervention their fe deral counterparts to review potential team. amendments, and we are expecting a formal response shortly. Manitoba Justice is committed to addressing youth crime, and we present these actions as In addition to reforming the act, I have indications of our seriousness to protect announcedother measures. 1bese include delaying Manitobans. the driving privileges where Manitobans or young offenders have been convicted of offences which InManitoba, the crime prevention fundhas been relate to driving. It is thesafety of Manitobans and a valuable resource in helping communities theresponsible driving which we are focusing on participate in theconfrontation of youth and adult with any changes that will take place here. crime issues. InApril, the Manitoba government co-hosted a We have provided a seriesof grants in supportof school-based antiviolence workshop for over 250 their actions and projects. 1beseinclude $4,000 to police, teachers and youth-serving agencies. the CrimePrevention awards program tostimulate Winnipeg was only one of eight cities across and encourage community input; $2,000 to the Canada chosen to host this pilot project. The God's Lake Narrows gun storage facility to help Training for Trainers focus allows them to return remove fireanns from potentially deadly access; to their wolkplaces and teach the curriculum to $4,300 to Manitoba Crime Stoppers program to students, staffand other community worlcers . helpthem expand their program into ruralschools; $3,600 to the Winnipeg police department I have proposed youth camps in response tothe concern of the correctional management of young minority summer youth employment program; offenders. The youth wilderness camps are $15,000 to the Citizens for Crime Awareness intended to bring about a stronger discipline and Winnipeg to help with theNeighbourhood Watch structure to the institutional management of these program in conjunction with the City of Winnipeg offenders. This is a made-in-Manitoba initiative, Police Service. and we believe this will balance stricter These and other grants made under the fund consequences with appropriate treatment and have helped my department to support community intervention. responses to their own specific needs more A number of proposals have been received from effectively. Manitoba Justice has also been external agencies wishing to administer these involved in working with groups such as camps. The proposals are being reviewed, no aboriginal communities to address their needs and decisions have beenmade, and they werereceived concerns surrounding the justice system. For unsolicited. We also continue consultations with example, Manitoba Justice has been consulting various groups such asaboriginal agencies, on this with FirstNations communities to achieve a First particularpro posal. Nations policing in those communities. We are In February, I announced the creation of a committed to ensuring these communities receive violence prevention consultantposition to be a part a level of police service that is community-based of the Department of Education. This consultant and· consistent with the level of policing provides training and assistance to school throughout Manitoba. With their participation, we divisions, teachers and others, to help prevent or have developed a pilot program with the DOTC respond to school-based violence. That consultant under the guidelines of the First Nations policing will also participate in the creation of a central policy. May 30, 1994 LEGISLA'TIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2617

ManitobaJustice is very proud of the progress concerned more now than I could ever have been tbat it has made on many fronts. The issues and about thebacldog in thatcourt. topics I have presented here are in no way a Theminister has talked in QuestionPeriod about complete or a comprehensive inventory of our a four-and-a-half month backlog. I do not know manyinitiatives . The Estimates before this House how she arrived at that figure. It is absolutely go into these in greater detail. astounding that that figure was presented to the Asthe Minister Justice of and AttorneyGeneral, Chamber, and we will be dealing with that at I believe that my department has made enormous length. We know that the backlog in tbat court is strides in meeting the needs of Manitobans andin extending up to one year for trials, and we will safeguarding their persons and theirpro perty, but want to discuss withthe ministerin detail how she at the same time, I will concede tbat we are not plans to deal with that backlogtbat is threatening finished.There is much more workto do and many the verypwpose of that court. I feartbat it is going more goals to be achieved. However, I am to cause a very serious problem when faced with confident that with the support of my staff, the the reduction in thenumber of full-timejudges, as courts and, of course,Manitobans themselves, we well, the imposition of Filmon Fridays over the will be able to make this province a safe and nextseveral months. I think bythat the endof the desirable community for allof usto live in. Thank summer, we will be in a very severe crisis unless you, Madam Chairperson. actionis taken immediatelyto deal withthat issue. Madam Chairperson: Does the honourable Aswell, in theFamily ViolenceCourt, I amvery member for SL Johns, the critic for the official distwbed tosee the report, although two yearsold, opposition, wishto make anopening statement? but talking about delays up to 18 months in processingchild abuse charges.I amalso aware of Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): I have some tbat situation not getting any better. I am aware of brief remarks. I first want to say that the a recent casewhere there isa backlog of about two Supplementary Information isa tremendous aidin yearsfor atleast one recent decision. I do not have going through the Estimates and something tbat the data on the othercases. I will exploringbe that was not here in the days when I was last in the further with the ministeras well. Chamber. I appreciate thework tbat goesinto tbat. I think it must be a lot of effort that goes into that • (1450) on the part of staff theand minister'soffice. The second area is the government's response The object of the Estimates discussion, as I see -and I would like the committee to engage in an it, isto not engage in debate so muchas to seekout audit of the Pedlar report recommendations as to answers to questions on areas of vital concern to where they are at now. My colleague the member Manitobans, as well to ensure that departmentthe for Wellington (Ms. B arrett) will be contributing and the minister are accountable to Manitobans in that area aswell. through tbat process. There are some themes and I generally sense that the priority given to some areas of concern that I will be addressing in women's legal issues, women's justice issues, particular. women's issues has been inappropriate, although I acknowledge that there have been some there hasbeen some movement. I thinkwe have to positive improvements made in the delivery of elevate the status of those issues within the some programs in the Department of Justice. At department and within provincial government the same time, Manitobans are very concerned generally. about some trends tbat appear to be developing In tbat regard, the thild area of concern is the withinthe administration of justice in theprovince , Maintenance Enforcement office. I am aware of in particular in these areas. First of all, in the the problems of accessing officers, of finding out Family Violence Court, Manitobans are what is going on with one's file. I am awareof the increasingly concerned andI think I am certainly shortcomings in the legislation. While at one time 2618 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

I thinkoffice that was amodel in NorthAmerica, it members of this Legislature, and told how I am now hasreally fallen behind.It is behind thepack. swprised at what goes on here during Question It is certainly not fulfilling its objectives as it Period andI have not exactly enjoyed the process, should. they said, you will enjoy Estimates. It is more I want to explore with the minister ways of consensus, more of a sharing, more of a talk. So I improving the Maintenance office, not just in am looking forward to that if that does happen terms of resources but in terms of a different here. legislative scheme, one that cane nsurethat arrears I have beendreading it because as a member of willnot occurin the firstplace and, second of all, a much smaller caucus without the resources, oncearre ars arise,give new powers to thestate and withouta lotof the ortssupp of a lot of other MLAs to individuals to get payments made on a timely and with a number of duties, I am not as well basis. prepared for thisprocess would asI like to be, but The fourth area I want to explore with the I am looking forward to this being a learning ministeris the response tothe area of risingyouth experience. This is the first time through crime in Manitoba, in Winnipeg, in particular. One Estimates,and I amhoping to learnmore about the subtopic there will be the backlog in the youth department court which I understand has now reached approximately 11 months andon for many,many I know something of the Justice department, cases. because in my position as a police officer, of course, I worked with the Justice department on Finally, again talking about a new role, an many levels. I have worked in Community and elevated priority for a group ofManitobans, that is, Youth Corrections as aprobation officer since the victims of crime,we willbe discussing in detailthe now-Minister of Health, former Justice minister Victims' Assistance Fundand Victims' Assistance signed my designation as an honorary probation programs, and also would like to canvass a new officer and designated our Maples justice role for thevictim when charges arelaid andthere is a court disposition. I thinkfor too long victims committee asjustice a committee in Manitoba. have been left out of the process, and that does So I bring some background to thisthat I hope I nothing forthe well-being of Manitobans,let alone can share. I am not naive enough to believe that the changing of behaviour ofthe offender. anything I share will change any line in the So those aremy areasof concern. I look forward Estimates, but I hope it will be taken into to sharing of information and to working as our consideration andwill move some of our debate in parliamentary system hasenabled usto dotowards a certaindirection. a better system of justice forManito bans. I enjoyed thecomments fromthe member fo r St. Madam Chairperson: We will now have the Johns (Mr. Mackintosh) aboutwhat theprocess is opening comments from the critic for the second to hold the government accountable and to clarify opposition party, the honourable member for The some policies andprocedures of this government. Maples. One thing that I noted was one time when the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) Mr. Gary Kowalski (The Maples): Thank you mentioned about when the government gives very much. I have been both looking forward to and dreading thisfirst round at Estimates as anew money, that it is not the government 's money, it is MLA. the people's money. When we in this Legislature authorize expenditures, it is the people 's money. An Honourable Member: You did not get a Although it is part of the political process for the haircut? government to take credit when they give grants to Mr. Kowalski: No. I have beenlooking forward citizens for crime awareness or for crime to it in that I have been told when I have met prevention, that is the people's money. I guess if May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2619

we are giving it to them, we are not giving it to political system, maybe there issomething thatwe someone else. So I take thatwith a grain of salt. could sharehere tosolve some of these problems. I am looking forward to working with this The other thing we talked about was the length Justice minister. We have a history going back of delay in dealing with charges. I have seen over from when I was a school trustee and she was the 20 years worldng as apolice officer that delay Education minister. I met her father, a retired basgone upand down. It isnothing new. The more police officer, in Toronto. I also know bow charges that areput in, of course, theregoing is to difficult hertask must befo llowingin the fo otsteps be a longer delay. Some of the reasons, in my of a Justice ministerwhom, I cannot take back my biased opinion, for the increasein charges are the words, as apolice officer I congratulated for many social fabric of thisprovince fallingapart because of some government decisions on priorities. Of of his good initiatives dealing with the impaired course, that is my bias, and I will be speaking to driving problem in Manitoba. So she bas a tough that, but it is something that we have to work on actto follow. together. Just replyingto some of thecomments she made I believe my role as acritic, just as amovie critic in her opening remarks, she talked about applauds a good movie, is that ifthere are good accomplishments of the staff. I think no matter initiatives here, I think the government should what party willbe in power, the bureaucracy in the receive support forthem, always with the fearthat Justice departmentis a good bureaucracy.There is once you support, then come election time, you a lot of goodstaff. I haveworlted withand them, I willnot beable to criticize, but thatis again part of have seen their commitment on many levels. It the political process. Oneof theideas here that the goes above and beyond the call of duty on a government is putting forward, electronic numberof levels. transferring of info for the common offe nce Shetalked about society constantly evolving and notices, I applaud thatinitiative . Thatis good; that moving forward, yet I will be looking for is going to help police; that is going to help the clarification. I sense a tonein government policies justicesystem. I laudapp that. to go back to the way it was, back to the good old • (1500) days. I think that the good old days were not Maintenance enforcement: our caucus bas necessarily as goodas we remember them. There received a number of concerns about this. Our was a lot of social injustice. There was a lot of Family Services critic is very involved with injustices that went on in those good old days that looking at the government's policies and actions are coming to light now, whether it was abuse to on this. I am looking forw ard to the Estimates to women or children,in so manydifferent areas.The finding out exactly bow much money is going good old days were notgood as as whatwe fondly whereto deal with thisproble m. Thephone calls I like to remember. We have selective memory. receive aretalking mainly about the delays, and it Ondomestic violence , I have seenpersonally the isnot just to get theinformation. Thebottom lineis generations and how domestic violence in one the money,the moneyto help the families andhelp family will be passed on to the children, to the the children. grandchildren. Anything that we could work AsI have mentioned inthis House before, one of together on tohelp solve thisprob lem, I think, can the things that brought me into politics was the be appreciated, because we have an opportunity problems to do with youth, not just the crime but here. We have someone who bas a legal back­ the suicide rate,unemployment rate, thepregnancy ground as one Justice critic here. We have rate among youth, but part of that isyouth crime. I someone who bas a background as a child thinkit was a memberof the minister's staff,Cathy psycllologist, someone who basa background as a Everett, at the youth summit, mentioned that right police officer. Although we are in an adversary now the justice system isdealing with many things 2620 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

at the tail end of theproblem that should not be a the programsthat are putfo rward by these private justice problem, thatit should bedealt with earlier groups arefol lowed. in the process, at an earlier age intervention, so To leave my remarks--I guess they were not eventually they do notbecome a justice concern. that short I am looking forward to this process, The Young Offenders Act, of course, as any and I hope that my questions and comments will other act, constantly needs review. As society both be helpful, and I hope they will help indicate changes, our legislation changes, and although I our caucus's position onmany of these issues. am still looking for the appropriate forum to put Madam Chairperson: I would remind the forward our views, the ministerbas questioned a members that item l.(a) Minister's Salary and number of times our caucus 's position on Resolution 4.1 will bedealt with at the conclusion amendments to the Young Offenders. I would be of discussion and passing of all other lineitems. glad to sharewith the ministerparty our 's position on that; of course,it needsthe review and revision. At thistime I would askthat the minister's staff As society changes and our children change, that please enter the Chamber. legislation basto change. Doesthe honourable Ministerof Justice wish to Talking aboutthe youth summit, I also attended introduce herstaff] the youth summit and enjoyed it very much, but I Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I would like to take think we have to be careful that, as in any a moment to introduce Mr. BruceMacF arlane, the communications, we filterwhat we hearthrough if DeputyMinister of Justice; Mr. Stu Whitley who is a bias, we could use the message from that youth the AssistantDeputy Minister of Prosecutions; Mr. summit to give credibility to whatever actions we Bruce Miller who is the Director of Winnipeg want to take. So I applaud the minister for having Prosecutions; and Mr. Pat Sinnott who is the the youth summit, but some of the responses and ExecutiveDirector of Administrationand Finance. some of the credibility given to the actions taken from that, I would have to disagree with. I think Mr. Mackintosh: What I would suggest to the what I heard at the youth summit is that the minister-and we candiscuss the different areasof emphasis should be onprevention instead of a lot concern-but under Executive Support what I of the reactive policies. This is a complicated suggest we do is discuss areas that go across problem, and I thinkwe shouldnot try to indicate different divisional lines within the department. For example, under this item, under (b) we deal to the public that there are simple solutions to iL with the Pedlar report, for example. I just wonder · TheYouth Crime Intervention Team:I thinkthe what her view is on that particularitem . more often that the police, Corrections, and the education system work together, the better it is. Mrs.Vodrey : MadamChairperson, I just needto clarify for the member. Ifhe is speaking about the The provincial council: I believe in Estimates I administration of each of the divisions that we will have some questions about some of the could perhaps cover it in one setof questions, I am membership of thatcoun cil. not sure we would have the personnel available to Youth camps, of course, have received a lot of assist with some of the detailed questions he may attention in Manitoba. Whether they are called have. Item 4.1 .(b) deals with the Executive boot camps, wilderness camps or youth camps, I Support in themini ster's office. am interested to see what type of money will be • (1510) going into this project, what kind of money to monitor, if the government does decide to go to Mr. Mackintosh: I do not know if the minister some of these private proposals-the same aswith will have the staff support that she will want any nursing homes, where it bas gone to private--that time later than thisto deal with Pedlar, because it is therehas to be some type of inspection to see that across a lotof divisions within thedepartment. May 30, 1994 LEGISLAnvE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2621

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, the member was informed thatwe coulddeal with issues relatingto correct. Mr. Pat Sinnott is theexecutive director of the Pedlarreport, that thestaffhere should be able Administration andFinance . to assistin answering those questions. Mr. Mackintosh: I do not knowhow longit will Madam Chairperson: Is that the will of the take to deal with Pedlar, but another matter that I committee? [agreed] justput the ministernotice on I wouldlike to deal with under this area is the Chief Medical Mr. Mackintosh: 1ust so we know where we are Examiner, not with regard to the details but with going, another area I would suggest might be regard tothe investigation issue as well. I think it appropriate under this head is dealing with youth would bemore appropriate to dealwith that before crime, becauseit is not simply a youth Corrections we deal with theexaminer's office in particular. issue, of course, andit may be best that thedeputy andMr. Whitley arehere forthat Mr. and Miller. Mrs. V odrey: Madam Chair, there is a very specificline in the Estimates for theChief Medical Mrs. Vodrey: I wasjust clarifying ifthe member wanted to deal with the nine-point plan Examiner's office andall that relates to that office, specifically, because other issues as theyrelate to soquestions aroundthe ChiefMedical Examiner's youth will come, as the member knows, under office should come under that line. Courts andCorrections. Mr.Mackintosh: Well, thereason I raise that, and To continue,the recommendation is that it might with all due respect to the Chief Medical be wise to deal with youth crime then in that Examiner, I wonderif is appropriate that theChief holistic way rather than the vecy specifics under Medical Examiner behere when we arediscussing 2.(a) in Prosecutions andparticula rly underspecial issues of investigation of his particular conduct, prosecutions. the conductof theexaminer. Mr. Mackintosh: I think the best place to deal Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am with it is where theminister has the administrative infonned that certainly in dealing with that line, support available, but I just wonder, since the the Chief Medical Examiner doesnot have to be nine-point plan deals with a lot more than sitting at the table if that would be helpful in prosecutions, in fact it deals almost entirely with discussing that particularissue. matters unrelated to prosecutions, ifthere is not a Mr. Mackintosh: The member for Wellington better place, including now, but I defer to the (Ms. Barrett) and I addressed a letter to the minister. minister, albeit relatively late in the process, but it Mrs. V odrey: Madam Chairperson, I certainly was asking for a recommendation-by­ want to co-operate with my colleagues because I recommendation status report on Pedlar. I am understand for all of us this is really a very wondering if the minister has compiled anything important issue. I just am advised that this either orally or in writing, preferably in writing, particular line dealing with my office may not be that can guide the discussions. the place. However, we may be able to do some Mrs. Vodrey: MadamChairperson, the letter was grouping of the issues in the wider discussion received last Thursday, I believe just Thursday under the areaof prosecutions, ifthat is heJpful to afternoon when we received the letter, Friday, so I themember. can tell the member that we do not have a Mr. Kowalski: 1ust on the introductions, I know submission for him today. However, I am more everyone there except one gentleman. Is it Pat thanhappy to tryand deal with the issue. Sinnottand where does he work? What area? The whole Domestic Violence Review has Madam Chairperson: The honourable Minister served as a springboard for numerous initiatives of Justice, the question asked was the clarification which have beendesigned to improve the response of your director of AdministrationFinance. and of thejustice system. As Irefer to the Pedlar report 2622 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

itself, I believeit was onRoman numeral page vm Asa result of theirwork, I would just like to stress in the reportitself, it hadrecommended that it was that there are awide range of possibilities, that to beviewed comprehensively, asopposed to point among them, whichis currently being looked at. by point. Madam Chairperson: Order,please. I wonder ifI Now, we willcertainly endeavour to provide the might ask the honourable member for Wellington memberswith theinform ationavailable. However, to move to her own seat to ask the questions. The we do not have that, as Isaid, in writing forthem, leave that is granted during Committee of Supply but I amcertainly prepared toor answer attemptto is to have the official critics move to the front row answer questions thethat members wouldhave . to pose questions of the minister, but other Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Yes, I am members are nonnally recognized in their own awarethat thePedlar report should belooked at in seats. I actually erredin recognizing you the first time. its entirety.As I have stated before, I thinkit is a magnificent document and one that can be used An Honourable Member: I wonder if there and should be used as the basis for the actions would beleave of this sitting of the committee in taken by the Departmentof Justice. the O:wnber toallow for the member to sit next to I do have some questions on specific me here in thefront benches. recommendations and specific groups of Madam Chairperson: Regrettably, I cannot give recommendations within the context of just thatleave. AsI understandit, it hasto bethe leave understanding thatthe Pedlar report does need to from the entire Cbamber. The Speaker asked for be viewed in itsentirety, and one of the strengths consent and leave to do what we normally do in of the Pedlar report is it does talk about the practice.Any deviationfrom that,I would suggest, requirements that needto be fulfilled by not only would have to be dealt with through the whole the variouselements of theJustice Department,but House in a questof leave by the Speaker. also Family Services, Health, Education, et cetera, and I think that is one ofthe best parts about the • (1520) overall Pedlar report. Ms.Barrett: Madam Cbair, I apologize for sitting My firstquestion is in the Response to Victims in the wrong seat. category, the category B. I would like to ask the The minister spoke about a committee that is ministerif she can give us an update onwhat the looking at the implementation. Is this the status is of the Community Advocacy Response implementation committee that the minister is Teams. referring to or is it another more specific committee? Mrs. Vodrey : Madam Cbairperson,that particular model is one which I understand the Pedlar group Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, there is an implementation was particularly interested in. I understand the committeechaired theby chiefjudge and fromthat previous minister, however, in reviewing that did implementationcommittee is a working group,and speakabout thatas a veryexpensive modeland did it is this working group which is looking at the respond that that was a particular model which wide range ofpossibilitie s, this among them. So it would take-certainly its implementation would is the working group. require significantplannin g. Ms. Barrett: The working group for the entire At the moment, I would liketo tell the member Pedlar report-no. that there are widea range of possibilities which Mrs. Vodrey: No, it is not the Pedlar working are being reviewed. The implementation group. It is a working group that comes from the committee of thedomestic violence court has the implementationcommittee . responsibility of implementing and are looking to do so in a very holistic and across-system way. Ms. Barrett: Can theminister then,while we are They arenot only looking simplyat the courtitself. talking about committees, give us anupdate on the May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2623

implementation committee that was, I believe, look forwardto seeingthat document by theend of established after the Pedlarwas report tabled that summer orearly fall. wasto look atthe implementation of theentire list Ms. Barrett: Will the minister then, when she of recommendations thatwere foundin the Pedlar receives thisdocwnent, betabling it or a summary report. of it or some infonnation about that report so that

Mrs.Vodrey: Madam Chair, I justwant to make we cansee what the outcome of the Pedlar report surethat we have distinguished forthose who may and all of these other federal reports is for the read this in Hansard later the implementation province of Manitoba? committeewe arespeaking about. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam, Chair I see no problem in 1bere is animplementation committee which is making that available. the implementation committee for the domestic Ms.Barrett: I appreciate that from theminister. violence court, and it is from that committee that the working group looking at the range of Anotherarea of thePedlar report that is I think a possibilities-that group flows from that very important one, not only in its specific implementation committee. recommendations but the impact it can have on potentially breaking the cycle of violence and I believe the questionthat wasjust asked speaks moving us forward is the Response to Abusers about animplementation committee for the Pedlar section, sectionC. report, and with that particular committee which is chaired by the Assistant Deputy Minister of I would like to ask the minister what the situation currently is regarding the Prosecutions, that groupis currently in the process recommendation about aneducational program for of putting together a response document, but the abusers involving no more 10 sessions, the response document will go further than Pedlar, than because since the Pedlar report, there have been a short-tennprogram for abusers. What is the status of that? What is the wait list, if any? Where are number of other issueswhich have come forward. I would reference, for example, the stalking crisis. these programs being offered?

I would also speak about the charging protocols, Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I am sorry. This is andalso a federald ocument. one of the cultiesdiffi in figuring outthe best place So this committee is now putting forward a to put the discussion around Pedlar. That is being response which dealswith the range of issuesand looked afterin detail by Corrections. is using that springboardas a for response. It will Whenwe get tothe Corrections line, we willbe be acomprehensive response. able to give the member information regarding programs available within the institutions, also Ms.Barre tt:Can the minister give us anidea asto programs available in the Community Corrections when this implementation committee coming out side, and I think we can answer those detailed of the Pedlar report will be reporting to the questionsthat shehas asked. minister? Ms.Barrett: Throughout the Pedlar report, there Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I aminf onned that a are recommendations dealing with training for goodpart ofthe wo!khas been done,but what has virtually every member in every category of occurred very recently is the federal report, the person who works in the justice system-the royal commission, the CanadianBar report. Those police, the Crowns, legal, paralegal, judges, reports, by theme, may be reflected, but the magistrates, hearing officers, correctional and importance of the wolk: is not reflected at this probation officers--dealing with theissues around point. the cycle of violence and all theotheraspects. One So thecommittee will lookingbe at makingsure of the areas that I think is one of the best things in that those reportsd an the concems within those the Pedlar report, and an area that I think can be reports willbe reflected in the document. I would translated as well into the health system, the 2624 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May30, 1994

education system and the family services system Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry, I -canthe minister give us anupdate asto how that do not mean to be difficult in the answering of training for all of those various components is these questions, but those employees fall within happening,and what percentage of theindivid uals the Coutts Division, and so on the coons line, I have beentrained, that kindof thing? will be able to provide a more full answer. I hesitate to give a globalresponse at the moment. • (1530) Ms. Barrett: I appreciate that, andI think thisis Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, Ithink that theway we can move through Pedlar. Now, when the training is important too, and in tenns of the the minister said that their cadets have aspart of Crown attomeys who are in prosecutions, the six their training a sectionon domesticviolence , what Crown attorneys who are part of the family about training for police officers who arently curre violencecourt receive c oncentratedtraining this in on staff, many of whom have beenpolice officers area. However, I am also told that now we are for many years andmany of whom may not beas beginningto add this as ain section every training aware as they might be of the situation regarding course for all of prosecutions, so thatthere will be domesticviolence? some who are trained in depth, but there will be some trainingleast at available for everyone. Mrs. Vodrey: I cannot give the member a comprehensive answer regarding active police In tenns of the police, certainly during cadet officers; however, we willundenake to check with trainingthis is a partnow of theirtraining. There is the four major forces, including the DOTC, to find a segment on domesticviolence. out exactly what trainingis being offered and the In tenns of judicial education, I do not control amount andavailability of that training. judicial education, but I cantell themember that I Mr. Kowalski: If it would help this process, I certainly understand or amadvised that theissues could tell what happens in the Winnipeg police relating to domestic violence andfamily violence force.Every five years, every member goes in for areincluded on their agenda. a refresher andcourse, panof that refreshercourse In tenns of Corrections, we might want to talk now is domestic violence. There is infonnation about this further inthe onsCorrecti area,but I am given onthat now . cenainly infonned, panicularly in the area of Ms. Barrett: I thankthe member for TheMaples Community Corrections, that all the Corrections for that update, so we will look for the funher officers and Community Corrections have had discussionabout otherpolice forces. some training in the area ofdomestic violence. I will have to check the details within our The area of legal and paralegal assistance for institutions exactly whether it isall members or if victims,recommendations under a grouping of (g), it is just specialized individuals. Then,within the can the minister give us an update on the response document, I am infonned that cenainly recommendation that a legal advocacy office be all of this infonnation will be available aswell in established for women and that this officewould tenns of wherethe traininghas oc curredand where include a toll-freetelephone line? the training dollars have beenspent. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I would just like Ms. Barrett: The minister responded saying the to take a moment to thankthe memberfor The Maples, also, for his inclusion of infonnation that sixCrown att omeys,dealing in thefa mily violence ishelpful. court, had a concentrated program, and then there is going to be an addition of a section or is being Intenns of the advocacy, I know the memberis addeda section, trainingfor all prosecutions. Now familiar with the Women's Advocacy Program, does that deal with the legal, paralegal, andI just thought it would be important to speak magistrates, hearing officers, et cetera, or where about that because certainlthat y doesrespond to a would thoseindividuals come in? number of the concernsPedlar rais ed. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2625

The Women's Advocacy Program, as the Mr.Mackintosh: My concern remains that when member may know,does include an individual we have so much work and effort and so many who is legally trained, and, also, we have not yet detailedprovisions forthe police in both Wmn ipeg throughJustice established a toll-free line. We are and Brandon, the absence of those provisions expanding the Women's Advocacy Program to outsideof thosetwo cities causes someconcern as rural Manitoba-Brandon, Thompson and The to whetheris there an appropriaterespo nse.I leave Pas. that with the minister.

Ms. Ban-ett: Is there a line? I apologize for not I am wondering, given that the zero tolerance being as aware as I should be of the Estimates in policy of the governmentis not really a policy-it this department this year, but is there a line on was an announcement; it was a press statement Women's Advocacy thatwe caninvestigate some -and there is no detailed policy available to of thisin furtherdetail? Manitobans, what concerns and action bas the ministerbad andtaken about police investigations Vodrey: Mrs. Yes,in victims services. to ensure thatthe policeare investigating domestic Ms.Barrett: Yes, I have a question, again,in this violence incidents as they would with any other same category about Legal AidManitoba. Is this incidents, or perhaps even more thoroughly, by the appropriate place to ask those questions and interviewing other available witnesses and recommendations of Pedlar. obtainingphysical evidence? Mrs.Vodrey : Theline for Legal Aid is6.(b). In short, the question is, has the provincial government taken a role to spur the method of Ms.Barrett: I believe whatI willdo, then, is go policeinvestigation in domesticviolence cases? through the Estimates, and now that I have some indication asto where these specificitems should Mrs.V odrey:Madam Chairperson, firstall, of in be dealt with, we will ask those questions under terms of the action, as I answered in theprevious those particular items. question,police wereinvolved in the development of the protocol. Inthe development of thepro tocol, : Madam Chairperson l.(b) Executive Support therecertainly was a recognitionof the traditional (1) Salariesand Employee Benefits. bias against family violencecoming forward to the Mr. Mackintosh: We are certainly aware of the courts, a sensethat thiswas in fact privatea matter, police responseto the government'szero tolerance and a recognition that there is a special dynamic announcement in Winnipeg and in Brandon as between thevictim and the accused. well where theyhave detailed police protocols in So as police were involved in the development place. of the protocol, these issues were explored with I amjust wondering what stepsthe government police. Certainly now they would recognize or has taken to ensure thatthere are protocolssimilar should recognize when calledto such a scenethat being developed and that zero tolerance is in fact theywould needto look elsewhere in recognition being implemented at the police level in other of thespecial dynamic, that that would be a basic areas in Manitoba, for example, in the RCMP part ofthe policing. detachments andthe other municipal forcesin the province. Mr. Mackintosh: I know the Pedlar report recommended changes to The Provincial Police • (1540) Act, specifically toempower the Manitoba Police Commission to develop regulations for the police Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I am infonned that in responding to partnerabuse allegations. fromthe startof thesepolicies, we made surethat allpolice forceswere included and were a part of Hasthe minister and the department considered these policies, including the military, so that amendments to TheProvincial Police Act, atleast everyone wasworking from the samebasis. in regard to that issue? 2626 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, at the moment the Mr. Kowalski: I do not know if this is the methodthat we have chosen to deal withthis issue appropriate place to ask this question. Since the is again through policy and also through zero tolerance on abuse was introduced, the communication and through working together. number of women charged with violent offences That, to thispoint , seems to have hadsome effect. appears tobesignificantly increased. Do we know However, the issue oflegislativeamendments does the number of women who have been charged in remainopen to us should we decide thatthis is not the increase? working underthe present circumstances. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam, Chair I just want to clarify Mr. Mackintosh: I would certainly urge the from the member, are you speaking about ministerand the staffto have a hard look at that increased number of women charged, or are you act, not just withregard to thisissue, but generally speakingabout a counteraccusationchar ge? in regard to discipline standards for police across • (1550) Manitoba, I thinkthe legislation is in need of an Mr. Kowalski: An answer to both questions overhaul. I note from the Pedlarreport that it was would behelpful. recommended that there be discussions with Queen's Bench to see ifthat courtmight establish Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I am informed that a family violence court as with the Provincial there is an ongoing study to look at that at the Court. Isthe minister aware of what the volume of moment, and that the numbers have increased to family violencecases arethat are going to Queen's the point that it has caused us to want to look at Bench ratherthan to theProvincial Court? those, and particularly a concern expressed in the area of counteraccusation. Mrs.Vodrey : I understand that we do have those Mr. Kowalski: available to us. We donot have it heretoday, so we What programs are there existing canundertake to bringthose figures to the member to provide supportand coumelling to those women who areconvicted of spousal abuse? and the figures, I would remind him, are prosecutiom figures anddo not relate to anycivil Mrs.Vodrey : Madam, Chair the member speaks actiom. about women who have been convicted, so it becomes an issue that the Corrections Division Mr. Mackintosh: I thank the minister. I would may have information on in terms of numbers. If appreciatereceiving those figures.Have there been we could defer the question to the Corrections any discussions with officials of the Queen's Division, that would behel pful. Bench with regard to establishing a family violence courtat that level? Mr. Mackintosh: Isthere currently any review of thebail procedures andthe procedures on granting Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I am told that the orders of prohibition and nonmolestation in Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench has domesticviolence cases? not raisedthat issue in regulardiscussiom withthe deputy. However, the ADM of Prosecutions has Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I am informed that approached that idea with the ChiefJustice of the there are instructions to all Crown attorneys to Court of Queen's Bench. seek protection orders in respect to complainants and also that where they are in a bail hearing, in Mr. Mackintosh: Well, is the minister aware cases where bail may not be opposed, at a whether there are ongoing discussions within the minimum, the Crowns then seek written Queen's Bench asto the establishment of a family restrictions or conditions which circumscribe the violence court at that level? Is it under active kinds of behaviourthat isexpected of the accused. consideration? Mr. Mackintosh: I will refer to a particular

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I amtold that to our circumstance, the one thatMr. Miller and I have best knowledge, I do not believe that it is. beendealing with. I do not know how widespread May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2627

the practiceis, but certainly, I guess,one is enough with under special prosecutions. The staff who for a concern, where there bas been a breach of a work in special prosecutions should have that nonmolestation order or probation order and information. The appropriation number is 4.2.(d) another oneis simply granted again with regardto for the member'sreference. thesame aspectthe of order. I have some concern • (1600) about that, wherethere is proofbefore the court of a breach aof particular aspect of an orderand yet Mr. Kowalski: I notice one of the Objectives in the order is again granted I am just wondering if Executive Support: "To co-ordinate, administer the ministerhas deal t with thatparticular issue. programs andactivities of theDepartment in order Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I can speak: in to meet statutory and government policy general terms about the issue. Certainly we are objectives." As far as the allotment of Crown concernedwhere there have beenbreaches, andthe attorneys in the different courts, whether it is the memberbas raised an issue where therebas been a domestic violence court, youth court, traffic court breach. I can tellhim that certainlythe direction to or whatever, is there a tradition of hierarchy that Crowns is again to be very vigorous at bail the mostjunior Crowns arein youthcourt? And, I hearings andto makesure issues that aretaken into am wondering, in the other courts,whether it is in account that would be important particularly for the violence court and that, is there a makeup of the victim. So, beyond that, I am not sure how Crowns of different levels of seniority, or do we much more I can answerthe member. A position is have a situation where we have the most junior taken by our Crowns.It is a vigorous position, and Crowns in some courts and the most senior then the judge makes a determination. Was there Crownsother in courts? somethingin addition thatthe member bad in mind Mrs.Vodrey: MadamChaitperson, in response to andwanted to discuss? the member's question, I am told that it was atone Mr.Mackintosh: Yes, I believe theminister has a time a practice where there were the Crown letter from me, dated May 11, and that issue is attorneys of least experience in the youth court. I in . I await theanswer . addressed there can there am told that that is no longer the case, and, as we I wonder if the minister can provide to the reviewed those very quickly, those Crown committee-! do not knowif this exists-a written attorneys who are operating in the youth court, directive to the Crown regarding procedures on they are, by and large-the majority are Crown bail applications, on prohibition and non­ attorneys of experience. So, as we have reviewed molestation orders. the department, we have not beenable to find that Mrs. V odrey: Madam Chairperson, yes, we can there is any area of the department which bas a provide that to the member. We do not have it with larger number of inexperienced Crowns and all us today, but we willcertainly seethat hereceives areashave Crowns of experience. Particularly, the it area of family violence, though, and youth have experienced Crowns. Mr. Mackintosh: Pedlar also recommended that the government of Manitoba consider whether Mr. Kowalski: The otherarea where, andcorrect there can be provincial legislation to supplement me ifI amwrong, I amsure you will, is that certain the federal firearms provisions in the Criminal levels of court have gone away from provincial Code. Has the minister's department undertaken a court judges and gone to hearing offices or study to determine, No. 1, the constitutionality, magistrates. I believe traffic court is one area. and , No. 2, the practicality of provincial There are other levels where this could be looked supplementary provisions for gun control at going away from provincial court judges to purposes? either hearing officers ormagistrates. At onetime , Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am for example , bail hearings were all done by informed that this is one areawhich is best dealt provincial courtjudges. Now it is done by hearing 2628 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

officers. Are there otherwhere areas there is that withinthe fa mily violence court.Within therest of possibility? Manitoba, we arelooking for thatto occurwith the regionaldirector. Mrs.Vodrey: Madam on, Chairpers that really is a very majorquestion for consideration in terms of Mr. Mackintosh: I amjust wondering,I have not bow the courts operate,for but a furtherdiscussion thought through all thepros andcons, but I amjust I might recommend that we look at that under wondering ifit might be ropriateapp to have one Courts and the appropriation would be 5.(d) for particularCrown chargedwith thatresponsibilit y, yourref erence. so not only isthere accountability but there willbe expertiseand a particularsensitivity to thisissue. Mr. Mackintosh: Where does the minister want to deal withdouble charging? I understand there is Has issuethat beenconsidered? a new directive as oflast week or two weeks ago Mn. Vodrey: Theexpectation isthat these would on that, andwhere would bethe approp riate place be overseen by the senior Crown of the domestic to dealwith questions? violence court. Mrs. Vodrey: We will withdeal it now ifthat is Mr. Mackintosh: The issue of double charging helpful. basbeen avery difficult one, particularly for those Mr. Mackintosh: I have a document called who have bad to facecharges andenter the system. Counteraccusation Charging Directive of May 19, I think it bas beeninjustice an for many,if not most 1994,which I understandis thenew directive. Has of them. that been now circulated to police throughout I am justwondering what policy there will befor Manitoba? those who have already beencharged? Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, yes, I am Mrs. V odrey: I, too, agree that this is a serious informed thatit bas beencirculated and is also in concern, whichis certainly whythe issue bas been the process of being circulated. So certainly it is examined. I aminformed that the caseshave been our intention that it bas been out, but whether all few. They have been very rigorously scrutinized policeservices havebad the opp ortunity to review by Crown attorneys from the domestic violence it yet, I amnot entirely sure. court. Outside of the city of Winnipeg, I am Mr.Mackintosh: Were law enforcement agencies informed thatwe have not bad any reported to us, consulted in putting thisdirective together? and so it may have been that those have been resolvedat the local level, but certainly within the Mrs. Vodrey: Yes, I am informed that the city of Winnipeg, they have been subject before departmentbas bad discussion with theRCMP and thistime certainlyto a very rigorous scrutiny. also with the Winnipeg Police Service senior executive, and they werein agreement that this is a Mr. Kowalski: Fus t of all, I am wondering ifI problem that does need to be addressed by a could obtain a copy of that directive, ifthat would charging directive. bepossible to getthat from the minister. The second question is, I am not too sure ifI Mr. Mackintosh: It says in the directive that the understand this directive. How does a police Crown opinion should be obtained before officer going to a scene of a domestic dispute proceeding with charges against a victim of decide who is the victim and who isthe assailant, violence, and there are certain conditions which theone thatis burt the most? How do you decide would apply. Isit contemplated that one particular who iscoun tercharging whom? I amnot too clear. Crownattorney beassigned to thatrole? • (1610) Mrs. Vodrey: I am informed that within Wmnipe g, we arelooking at that consultationto be Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I am just in the within the family violence court rather than one process of seeing that the member for TheMaple s specific Crown attorney, but Crowns operating basa copy of thischarging directive so that be can May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2629

referto it I aminform ed thatthe analysisis a legal Themember references a third party calling. We analysis, andit isdone basedon thepolice report. would have to pay attention to what thethird party So I think, when you have had an opportunity to did say. Who did the third party report may have look at the policy itself, that may assist in beencrying or may have been screaming or may answering thequestion. have been the one where the concerns were then registeredby thethird party? Mr. Kowalski: Just in the meantime, sometimes there is action taken at the scene, and the police So I would again say thatthe policy is aguide . officer has to decide if they take both spouses Mr. Kowalski: I will justadd onecomment. away or one spouse. Before I read through this I would not like to seethe police put back in the directive, again the question is, when there is position where they are going to bethe judge and immediate arrest, thereis action taken, someone is decide who is the aggressive spouse and have to taken out of thehome, andis this directive telling decide there who isthe principal assailantand who the police whichperson to take out of the home? I is the secondary one. Because I thinkthat is what amnot too sure. this zero-tolerance policy has tried to get away Mrs.V odrey : Asthe member knows, the focus on from, leaving the police in theposition to decide at zero tolerance is the separation of the parties so thescene. I will have to lookat this moreclosely, that the abuse cannot continue, so that there is but I amconcerned at puttingthe police backin the some immediate relief. positionof being the judgeat thescene .

Inlooking at thepicture, the police officers look Mrs. Vodrey: Madam, Chair I would say to the at evidence that is available to them. We have memberthat we agree.We do not want to go back listedin the CounteraccusationCharging Directive to that time before zero tolerance, but there has certain areas that should beexamined, that would also been a recognition that a very strict behelpful to examine, but in thelong run,there is applicationof thatzero-tolerance policy has led to, no doubt that we rely on the good sense and the in somecases, a handful of injustices or concerns, judgment of the police officer within the so what this isintended to do is to provide some zero-tolerancepolicy. fine tuning,to be ofassistance.

Mr.Kowals ki: Reading that directive,it just talks I can assurethe member that we certainlywill be about the principal offence. How is determination monitoring how this works, and we will be in made about which isthe principal offence? Is it the contact with police servicesacross theprovince in person who calls and is making the original terms of any concerns that police officers are allegations? If that isthe case, what happens on a raising. call when there is a third-party complaint into a Mr. Mackintosh: Under the section titled Policy domestic violence incident? How is it decided isit actually contemplated that theCrown opinion whichis aprincipal offence? must beobtained?

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson,these policies Mrs. Vodrey: Madam, Chair of course there isa are guides. They cannot capture within them all recognition that the police do have the right to lay possible scenarios; however, they are meant to be charges. This is a recommendedcourse of action. used asguides. We have provideda way to look at However, in caseswhere police are extremely sure this,certainly examine to some areas. of the situation,then they would go aheadwith the rights that they already have. In some cases both individuals will be charged, and they both may be equally at fault in some Mr. Mackintosh: I have another question. I am cases. But in other cases, it may be obvious that not sure if the suggested matters for further one is a victim, and that may be obvious by the investigation that are listed under that paragraph experience of the police officer. So there is a entitled Policy are only to take place after the number of criteriawhich will bereferred to. Crown opinion has been sought, or is it 2630 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

contemplated that you get the basic facts,you go there hasbeen any public educationprogram either back to the Crown andthen, ifnecessary, you go implemented or planned by the department to backand do the furtherinvestigation? I amjust not advise Manitobans of their new rights under this sureas towhat wascontemplated there . legislation? Mrs. Vodrey: I just want to clarify from the Ifthe ministercan rec ommend wherethis should member that his question was under policy. beraised, Iwould bepleased to raise it where she Having looked atthe issue he has spoken about hasthe appropriate staffavailab le. under policy, is it then possible that our Crowns My understanding is that under Executive may then want to proceed with charges under the Support there usually has been some latitude in other areas which arelisted applicable offences? If dealingwith general issues acrosspolicy. thatwas the question, the answer isyes. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I just had an Mr.Mackintosh: I willjust leave it at this.think I opportunityto speakto theMinister of Health(Mr. there roomis for some confusion on the steps that McCrae). The member asks about a public anofficer must takeand thesteps that one hasto go information campaign, or an opportunity for the through before a decision is made as to whether public to understand this, and I amtold there is a charges arelaid or not.I amjust wondering ifthere public information campaign which would be isa plan to have a trainingsession with officers or conducted by theDepartment of Health. with law enforcement officials inManitoba about thispolicy . Mr. Mackintosh: I am certainly aware of an education campaign conducted by the Manitoba • (1620) Medical Association which has been quite Mrs. Voclrey: Madam, Chair we willbe sending a vigorous. Is the minister aware of whether a follow-up letterto the police services across the program has,in fact, been ouncedann and whether province. There willalso be afo llow-up meeting. it hasgone public? Wherethere areambiguities orconcerns that have been raised or questions, then we certainly would Mrs.Voclrey : Madam Chair, as thisrelates to the seek to clear up any of those ambiguities through Department of Health,I will undertake to findthe those measures. information for the member and see that he receives it. As I said to the member for The Maples (Mr. Kowalski), we certainly will also be monitoring Mr. Mackintosh: I want to deal with the issue of this particular policy to look at its effectiveness the appointment of judicial vacancies in the and to look at how it is actually being Provincial Court, as well as the compensation implemented. package awarded or made available to judges of theProvincial Court, and I ask the minister where Mr. Mackintosh: I may have some further it ismost convenient that that bedealt with. questions on the policy later on, andperhaps we can deal withthat underProsecutions or wherever Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, for the member's thatmay fit,but I do commend the ministerher and reference it is item 5.(d). departmentfor addressingissue this . It may be that thereis somefurther fine tuning requiredin regard Mr. Mackintosh: In the throne speech the to double charging, but we can address that down government announced that it would be seeking the road. legislative amendments to make young offenders more responsible for their actions by denying I think we have dealt with Pedlar for now as driver's licence toindividuals under 18 who have much as we can under this heading. I wanted to had any convictions. I am asking this now, or move on to anotherarea. whetherit would be under Policy and Planning, as The Health Care Directives Act was recently to--I would like the minister to comment on proclaimed by the government. I amwondering if whether the government has received a legal May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2631

opinion as to whether thatconstitutionally can be education campaignundertaken by herdepartment done. aboutthat legislation?

Mrs. Vodrey: I aminfonned that,yes, there is an Mrs. Vodrey : I aminfonned that my department opinion in theprocess of beingput together, and. specificallyhas not undertaken a public awareness yes, the government does intend to bringforward campaign; however, we have made sure that legislation. The details of that legislation, infonnation hasgone to all police services across however, I willnot beable to revealto themember the province regarding the types of evidence untilthat legislation is tabledin theHouse. necessary. Mr. Mackintosh: On the understanding that the Mr. Mackintosh: My concern reallyregards the nine-point plan and otheryouth crime issues can scope of that remedy, in other words, denying a bedealt with later,I amprepared to passright up to driver's licence to a youth who has had any (f) at least, and we can deal with Computer convictions. I am just wondering if that is the Services. subject of the legal opinion being sought. I certainlyam very- I findit veryattractive that one Mr. Kowalski: I am not too sure ifI understand would take away certain privileges of the road this process correctly. Would we bepassing all of when those privileges are violated, where one has page 21 ifwe did that, everything that is on 21? been involved in car theft or carvandalism or Madam Chairperson: I do not have the otherwise abuse therules of the road andcertainly Supplement open in front of me. I have theactual would support that kind of legislation. What I Estimates manual. would supportbroader, I do notknow, but I would justlike to knowthe legal basis of theability of the Mr. Kowalski: I justhave some questions about government to take away a licence for any page 21 here, more for my information to conviction. understanding the process. Under Other Expenditures, there are anumber of changes in Mrs. Vodrey: I certainly understandthe point the Estimates of Expenditures for 1993-94 and memberis getting at, and certainlyI understand the Estimate of Expenditures for 1994-95. The two issue. Basisof thelegal opinion is to, again, look at questions I have, what were the actual the issueof scope andthat the activity betied to an expenditures in 1993-94, is that information areaof provincial responsibility constitutionally. I available? Secondly, why the differences in those cantell the member that I expect tablingto be that categories? legislation veryshortly. I believe a number theof questions will be answered at that time, but I Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chairperson, I am infonned that the final numbers for 1993-94 are accepthis comments. not yet available. Thebooks have not beenclosed. Mr. Mackintosh: I would like to deal with some But I am infonned also that the area where there issues regarding drinking and driving. Is it might besome discrepancyis that benefitsare now convenient to theminister that they be dealt with included, andthat would be upin the Salaries and here? Employee Benefits. That was not included in the linebefore. H themember is speaking specifically • (1630) of other expenditures in which we have, in most Mrs. Vodrey: I am infonned that under l.(c), I lines, lookedfor a reduction thisyear, if there is a should have available a staffpersonwho may have specificarea, I willcertainly tryto answer it. furtherinfonn ationavailab le. Mr. Kowalski: Maybe I ask much, but I am Mr.Mackintosh: With regard to what is generally interestedin allof thereductions. Whatcan theybe known as the antisniff wasbill that enacted by the generally attributed to?

Legislature,I think, lastsession, could theminister Mrs. Vodrey : Madam Chairperson,managers did advise whether there has been any public undertake to attempt to reduce expenditures to 2632 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

eliminate nonessential kinds of spending. Thetwo with Citizens Against Impaired Drivers. Three areas that the member mentioned under Other ministers were present, and none of those Expenditures, Transportationand Communication, recommendationswere brought forward. it is anundertaking then to reducethe no nessential So the Ministerof Highways (Mr. Findlay) had expenditures in those areas and to commit to the undertaken to take in thisinf ormation,to look at it. reduction,recognizing these are also theminister 's However, concerns have been expressed thatthat office. particularly notes onlythe carand does not speak Madam Chairperson: Item l.(b) Executive to thedriver, and theMinister of Highways also in Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits hispublic comments spoke about concernsaround $380,100-pass; (b)(2) Other Expenditures constitutional matters, so that has never been $81,300-pass. formally presented to govemment. l.(c) Policy, Planningand Special Proj ects­ Mr. Mackintosh: So I take it that, because it has Mr. Mackintosh: I had forgotten. That was the not beenfo rmallypresented, it is not under active areawhere the drinking anddriving issue would be consideration by thedepartment at thistime. raised. Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Ola.ir, not the Department

Mrs.V odrey : Madam, Chair I did not know ifwe of Justice , no. I cannot speak for other would reach thispoint thisquickly. I aminf onned departments,but not ours. that the staffperson is on a plane back, so if it Mr. Mackintosh: Is the minister aware of any would behelpful to the member,why do we not tty kind of-what the backlog is for drinking and to answer the questions now? Then I will driving casesin the courts?Are there any statistics undertake to bring information back that I am not that deal with thosekinds of charges? able to providehim with at thistime . Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, I do not have the Mr. Mackintosh: I think all Manitobans have support stafffrom Regional Prosecutions here, but lauded the government's efforts to deal with I aminf ormedfrom Winnipeg Prosecutions that in drinking and driving in a meaningful way, and I the area of drinking and driving a date can be know it is often said andI hearit onthe radio that accommodated within one to two months. we have the toughest drinking driving laws in North America, but oftentimes I question even Mr. Mackintosh: I understand that the problems thenif it is tough enough. now really theare repeaters. I amwondering ifthe I am wondering ifthe govemment is looking at govemment hasany plans to deal with that issue. furtherimproving the drinking-driving laws in Mrs. Vodrey: I am not able to commit to a plan Manitoba. I know that theminister and I were at a today, but I cantell themember that very recently meeting recently of the Citizens AgainstImpaired ministers did meet anddiscuss the concernsaround Drivingwhere a numberof differentpolicy options repeaters. CAID is one organization which has were talked about, and recentlyin one of the local presented some issues around repeat offenders to papers there was some speculation that the govemment, and so we have had discussion very ministermight beconsidering pink plates. recently on that issue and certainly now are Just, firstof all,on that issueof pink plates, what looking at the numbers of repeaters. is the minister 's position on that one? Was that Mr. Mackintosh: Does the minister or the speculation on the part of the media, or is that in govemmentcurre ntly have a positionas to whether factin thewodcs? the drinking age should beraised or not? • (1640) Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chaiiperson, that issue is

Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, that issue was not probably best discussed with the Minister presented at any time to the ministers who very responsible for the Liquor Control Commission recently, as recently as last week had a meeting (Mr. Gilleshammer), who may be able to provide May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2633

further information as that falls into his seriousness of drinking and driving. We do not department. want to standstill. We do not want to assume that allthings are corrected by a current action. There Mr. Mackintosh: I know that the blood alcohol are a number of ministers who are involved, content level rightnow is set at .08, andthere have however, and the Minister of Highways (Mr. been discussions by organizations, for example, Findlay) and the Minister of MPIC (Mr. like CAID. I think there are some other Cummings) and the Minister of Justice are jurisdictions which have a lower blood alcohol engaged always in discussions of improvement. content tolerance; CAID, forexam ple, has argued for .05. Does the government, the minister have Ifthe member is asking for a specific initiative any policy or have any position on that? today, I would want to be careful not to suggest a specific initiative because decisions have notbeen Mrs. y: V odre CAID did present some concems reached at this time. However, I think that he around the blood alcohol content level. There was should know thatwe take the issue very seriousl y. a recognition at that presentation, however, that In an earlier answer, I commented on concems Criminal this is a responsibility found within the around repeat offenders, that we know we have Code andthat it would requireamendments to the certainlyhad animpact on, in some areas,drinking federal legislation, andthey are also aware of that anddriving, and now our concems are focusing on areaof responsibility. repeat offenders. Mr. Mackintosh: I know Ontario, I think they Mr. Kowalski: In this area, research and special introduced a graduated licensing system just projects, under this category, prior to putting out recently. So it appears to be becoming more the nine-point plan, andpart of the nine-point plan acceptable to move toward that kind of licensing being boot camps/wil derness camps, I am system. I am wondering if the government has wondering what researchwas done to look at the looked at thatof kind a program andwhether it has effectiveness of that type of correctional facility. a position on it at thispoint. Was there research done by thisdepartment prior Mrs. V odrey: Madam Chai.Jperson, that area of to that being instituted? responsibility falls to the Minister of Highways Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, the whole idea of (Mr. Findlay), ands o the questions would best be boot camp, the term boot camp and the term posed to the minister responsible. wilderness camp, was to speak about our concern Mr. Mackintosh: I am wondering what the andrecognition, and recognition that Manitobans minister's view is asto theworkings of the current alsoheld, thatwithin ourinstitutions we wanted to drinking and driving law in Manitoba and what make sure thatit was a rigorous confinement. So opinion she would offer as to how that can be what I did, at thetime of the announcement, was improved so that Manitobans are better protected. put forward certain principles around which we I certainly understandthat there areother ministers would be developing our made-in-Manitoba that can be responsible for this, but I do see it as solution. Those principles were, first of all, very primarily a Justice issue. I think it has been the well-known and well-recognized rules. It has -certainly the formerJustice minister hasled the certainly been my experience, and I am sure the pack, so to speak, on this. I am just wondering member's as a police officer, that some young what the opinion of theminister is asto whatmore people simply do not know the rules or do not we cando. realize thatthe rules apply to them. So it was to put in place an opportunity for those young people to Mrs. V odrey: In thisarea, firstof all,I appreciate experience the rules that when rules are broken, the recognition that the member provided for our there be well-known consequences also. colleague, the former Minister of Justice, who did lead in this area, and certainly government then There was also the principle that the provided for changes which dealt with the environment should be austere. The environment 2634 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

should not be acomf ortable environment, in some was not the next step. So in the made-in-Manitoba cases, farmore comfortable than individuals have solution, we are looking at those principles which experienced at other times. The wilderness camps were the principles around which we decided to or boot camps should also be characterized by a develop this as a system of very rigorous veryhigh level of activity. There shouldnot be the confinement, but also with always therecognition time just to sit andwatch television or to entertain that thereneeded to be afol low-up. eachother, thatin factthis should be anexperience Also, from the very beginning and the first which added stroctureto theyoung person'slif e. announcement, there was never any suggestion With those four principles in mind, which that we would be eliminating the needs for formed the basis of the announcement, we then treatment There is a recognition that individuals looked at researchas to what hadbeen shown to be who come into our institutions may have problems extremely successful andwhat hadshown to benot of drug and alcohol andsubstance abuse, and atthe so successful. moment, we also have opportunities for people to From the very beginning, my statements were gain insight into their criminal behaviour. The always prefaced by the fact that this is a basis of the rigorous confinement within our made-in-Manitoba solution. This is a institution will be very focused on the four made-in-Manitoba movement towards rigorous principles but also with the inclusion of necessary confinement. The terms were always meant to treatments andalso a strong follow-up. conform to the principles thathad I put forw ard. Mr. Kowalski: Is it possible to have a broad Mr. Kowalski: The question was, the last part of knowledge of what research projects this what I was looking for isthere was research done department is investigating right now? Especially into the effectiveness of each principle in this in the area of prevention, what is the department program. For example, with this Guidelines For looking at in the areas of prevention? What Proposal To Operate A Youth Camp, there is a research, what pilot projects are being done right criteria for programming including recreation, now in the area of prevention? substance abuse, school, cognitive Mrs. Vodrey: Madam Chair, in relation to this reconstructuring, wolk, fitness, awareness. In all particularline, which isresearch being undertaken these categories again the question is, is it being by our Policy andPlanning, some of it which is in done because it feels right, or is it being done progress now, there is not a specific research because there is researched evidence that is relating to prevention. However, if the member showing this will reduce the amount of youth would like to speak about thekinds of prevention crime? programs which arently curre ongoing, we might • (1650) talkabout it in 2.(d) which is the Law Enforcement Services area, andI think that we will be able to Mrs.Vodrey : Madam, Chair therecertainly is in speak about the kinds of prevention programs and all areas research on both sides-research which support to prevention programs which we are says, in some cases, a very rigorous confinement giving currently throughout Manitoba. does not necessarily assist in recidivism, and there The list that we have for Policy andPlannin g's isother research thatsays that it does. research doesnot include preventionpr ograms. The one characteristic which we found to bethe most important was that those four principles Madam Chairperson: l.(c) Policy, Planning and would be in place during the period of Special Projects ( 1) Salaries and Employee confinement, but that following release there Benefits $315,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures would be a very strong and intense follow-up or $154,900-pass. support. It seemed from the research we haddone l.(d) Financial andAdministrative Services (1) that one of the areas lacking was the follow-up, Salaries and Employee Benefits $985,600--pass; and that recidivism then occurred because there (2) OtherExpendi tures $238,400--pass. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2635

l.(e) Human Resource Services (1) Salaries and Given there30 are seconds, I wouldsuggest that Employee Benefits $647 ,400-pass; (2) Other the hour being 5 p.m., and time for private Expenditures$13 7 ,900--pass. members' hour, I am leaving the Chair with the understandingthat this committee will resume at 8 l.(f) Computer Services (1) Salaries and p.m. thisevening to consider theEstimates for the Employee Benefits. Department of Justice. Mr. Mackintosh: I wanted to deal with the Call in theSpeaker. computerization of the Maintenance Enforcement office. Is thisa goodplace to raisethat? INSESSION

Mrs. V odrey: I aminformed that isprobably PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS best discussed, for the member's reference, under line 5.(a), where I will have available to me the Mr. Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., time for stafffrom Court Services and be able to give tbe Private Members' Business. member moredetail edanswers. • (1700) Mr. Mackintosh: I know in some other jurisdictions there have been projects to put PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS sentences of the provincial courts into the Res. 13--SocialPolley Review computer, and one canpunch in certainvariables and spit out the sentence, tbe precedent that could Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): I move, apply. I know thisw asdone in British Columbia a seconded by the member for Wellington (Ms. number of years ago, not many years ago, and I Barrett),that thinkwhat it doesis it provides certainly guidance WHEREAS social programs are important to for thecourt when sentencing. Canadians, and are valued for redistributing I am particularly concerned about tbe guide for income to thepoor, aswell asproviding important the court on maintenance orders. I understand services such as child care anduniversal access to theremight be astudy right now currently ongoing medical care; and about what isthe ropriate app level of maintenance WHEREAS during the 1993 federal election, support for children. I am wondering if there has the Liberal Party campaigned on a platform of beenany consideration andany action to put into a preserving and protecting social programs, a database precedents of the Provincial Court so promise which hasnot been ed;fulfill and there is a guide to the court in sentencing or in WHEREAS the federal government has stated giving maintenance orders . that the pwpose of its social policy review is to restructure and modernize social programs; and Mrs. Vodrey: I certainlyreciate app the member's question. I understand what he islooking attrying WHEREAS the1994 federal budget forecasts a to achieve there. I am informed, however, again, $5 billion reduction in social spending over the that under 5.(a), where we candeal with thewhole nexttwo years; and Maintenance Enforcement Program, we will have WHEREASindependent an study found that the thestaff available to speak about anysmdies which changes proposed by the federal government will have been looked into in terms of assisting cost $1 billion and will force 40,000 Canadians Maintenance Enforcement in any of those areas. onto welfare; and Madam Chairperson: Item 1.(f) Computer WHEREAS many of the cuts will hit the Services ( 1) Salaries and Employee Benefits unemployed, and other vulnerable groups like $766,400-pass; (2) Other Expenditures seniors and smdents, particularly hard; and $416,800-pass. WHEREAS cuts to welfare benefits in First Item 2. Public Prosecutions. Nations communities areunfair; and 2636 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

WHEREAS continuing high rates of benefits for seniors; 78 percent support for young unemployment have a significant social cost, people to get jobs; 73 percent support for forcing a large number of Canadians and unemployment insurance; 72 percent for support Manitobansto rely on welfare,and contributing to for assistance to students; 71 percent support for poverty in our society. workers compensation; 62 percent support for THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the skills upgrading; and 50 percent support for LegislativeAssembly of Manitobaurge thefederal welfare orsocial assistance. The only one that was government to consider putting cuts to social not 50 percent or higherwas 44 percent support for programs on hold, and ensuring that any future relocationassistance. restructuring or redesigning of social programs Thatis a fairly long listof social programs. It is does not resultin a reduction of assistance to the very obvious that Canadians do value and support poor, the elderly, students, or members of First these programs. In fact, I think that any Nations communities. government would be foolish ifthey campaigned Motionpresented. on a promise to get ridof anyof theseprograms. In fact, the federal Liberal government did the Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, I think the main opposite. They said, we will protect our social pwpose of this resolution is to say that while we programs; we willenhance our social programs. arenot opposed to thefe deralgovernment 's social Of course, as we know, Liberals run like New policyreview, we do thinkthat it hasbeen going too quickly and needs to be put on hold and Democrats and govern as Conservatives. The rethought. We are opposed to the budget cuts proof of that was in the budget where they cut which have already happened and which are money to unemployment insurance. I have some stats on that, because the cuts were quite proposedto happenin futurebudg ets. substantial. The reason I asked theMinister of I wouldlike to beginwith the first WHEREAS Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) a question of my resolution which says thatCanadians value about that today was that this has an implication social programs. The Liberal government in for the province of Manitoba, andwe learned this Ottawa has done some public opinion polling on in Family Services Estimates last week, that the this, and it is very interesting. In fact, I even gross cost is $4 million but because it is offered to share this paper with the Minister of cost-shared 50-50 under theCanada Assistance Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), so I must Plan, the actual cost to Manitoba is $2 million. make goodon that promise. That is theresult of the federalgovernment cutting I will quote from it again. This is Mr. the eligibility for unemployment insurance so that Axworthy's paper. It is called: Social Security fewer people willgo on unemployment insurance, Reform Communications, the Public which is a cost-shared program between Environment, the Strategic Overview in employers andemployees. These people willnow Communications Action Plan, Tabling of beapplying for municipal assistance or provincial Government Action Plan on SSR and social assistance, and that is a cost halfof whichis Communications Support to Public Consultations borne by the taxpayers of Manitoba. So we are Phase. This is a strategic communications draft already seeing that this has negative implications confidential document of March21, 1994. for the Province of Manitoba and for the individuals involved. Parts of thisdocument concernme. Onthe other hand there aresome veryinteresting thingsin here The next WHEREAS says that the Liberal Party asthe result of thepublic opinionsurveys thatthey campaign on a platform of preserving and did. What they found-and the first statement is protecting socialprogram s, and, as Ihave already Public strongly attached to current social said, some of the evidence appears to be contrary programs, for example: 94 percent support for to that The cuts are already there. Perhaps I can benefits for the disabled; 90 percent support for find some of the figures. Yes, here is a Globe and May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2637

Mailstory from February 26, whichsays thatin the I have alreadymentioned that there will bea$5 budget on Tuesday the government announced a billion reduction. Infa ct, my figure was wrong. It $5.5 billion cut in unemployment benefits over the is more than a $5 billion reduction. I next threeyears. So there isone example. underestimated the amount of money that the federal governmentpro jects tosave. I have already Another example would be a Free Press article quoted the figures about the 40,000 Canadians from May 25 which says: "Martin's budget said going onto welfare. federalpayments to provinces for social assistance would be cut by $1.5 billionin 1996-97. My concern isthat these cuts will affect people who are unemployed, particularly vulnerable "It also cut unemployment insurance by $2.4 groups like seniors and students. If the federal billion in thesame yearand said Axworthy 's social government would just look at some of the program refom will lead to 'further significant successes of the past and imitate those, we reductions' in UIspending. probably would not have a problem here. For "'Ibe advisory group's bottom line: Changes to example, ifyou look atdifferent groups of people social programs will include spending cuts, who are defined as poor in our society, there bas including federalpayments to provinces.'' been onegroup thathas had a significant reduction in the numberof people in poverty over the last 25 I think that will beis and of greatconcern to the years, and groupthat is seniors. There are couplea Province ofMan itoba. I expectto hearthe Minister of reasons for this. Oneof the reasonsis that more of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) put on the andmore seniors have beenin paid employment in record some of her concerns on behalf of her the past, and so they have got Canada Pension government about the implications for the benefits coming to them when they retire and Province ofManitoba as aresult of thosecutbacks , company pensions whenthe y retire. oneof which I have already mentioned. There is also another group of people, some of 1beresolution says that "the fede ral government whom have beenemployed in the paid world'orce has stated that the pmpose of its social policy and some not, who are benefiting from the review is to restructure and modernize social guaranteedincome supplement So, ifyou look at programs." I thinkat th there wasprobably no one the stats over the last 25 years, there has been a saying that we need to modernize andrestructure. I steady and continual decline of the number of think what this really refers to is the fact that we seniors living in poverty. That is-to give credit are ina very serious recession, andthe resultis that where credit is due-because a fe deral Liberal the cost of government goes up, because as government brought in the guaranteed income unemployment increases people are on either supplement unemployment insurance or social assistance and The suggestion that I would like to make is, why that isa burdenon the public purse.I thinkthat was do they not do the same thing with other groups? the main reasonfor the concern.I think,regardless Why do they not say, we are concerned, for of whether the Conservatives had beenre-elected example, with families with children living in or a newLiberal government was elected,either of poverty? Say, okay, we are going to do the same those two parties would have had a major focus on thing. We are going to provide extra benefits to this simply because of the cost. families with children so that they do not live in I am not saying that that is an unreasonable poverty and adopt some of the goals of the reason for looking at the cost. I guess my concern Campaign 2000,whereby all partiesin the fe deral greed iswhy they are doingit andhow they doingare it. House of Commons a on a target of eliminating child poverty by theyear 2000. Ifthe I think that one of the reasons is simply to save Liberal government were to do that and were to money, notjust to modernize andto restructure. say, we are going to target families with children, • (1710) andwe are going to have goals, and we are going 2638 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

to reduce thenumber of children in poverty over a system kicks in at a very low level, and that is number years,of that is something that we could anotherdisincentive to work. support. It worked in one area; it could work in Another oneis thatpaid employment needsto be another area. higher than social assistance rates so that people There are some very easypositive and ways of have an incentive to get into the paid workforce, doing that. For example, if we were to make becauseone ofthe problems now, particularly with compulsory having pensions for everyone in the people with large families, the social assistance paid workforce, which the Saskatchewan rateis higher thanpaid employment in many cases, government is moving on doing, then when those particularly if people areworkin g andbeing paid at people retire, they would have higher incomes. If minimum wage. we extended pay equity to the private sector, So anotherthing thatgovernments could do is to which Ontario has moved on doing, then the raise the minimum wage. With this government, income, particularly of women, would be we have had very few raises in minimum wage, increased, and fewer women, particularly single and whereas I think we were first or highest in parent women, 60percent of whom live under the Canada under the NDP, now we have dropped poverty line, women who are heads of households considerably to maybe sixth or seventh place, with children-if we were to do that, we could second lowest in Canada for our rate of minimum help raise their income and have fewer single wage. So there aresome concrete examples of how parentswith children living belowthe poverty line. the government could move to eliminate barriersto employment So there are a couple of ways that we could make a difference to those groups in society. The Now some of the things that I have suggested, I background papers that have been put out by the admit, will cost money and so the minister or the federal government are quite interesting to read. government or even theLiberal Party would say to Oneof theirfocus paperstalks about disincentives me, well, how arewe going to pay for this? I think thatis a legitimate question. I think that we needto to work. There really are disincentives to work. start with some fair taxation to ensure thatwe can That much I agree with. Some of them are the pay for these things. For example, more than $140 inability of people to get child care, because there billion in corporate taxes have gone untaxed in the arenot enough spaces in the child caresystem . The last nineyears, more than$1 40 billion in corporate federal government, once again, has promised taxes untaxed in the last nine years. Eighty something. They have said that if the economy corporations each owe $100 million or more in grows by more than 3percent, they willbring in a deferred taxes. Workers often pay more taxes than national child care program. The experts are the companies they work for. saying that is probably not going to happen until at least 1995. Let uslook at one example of the implications of the unfair tax system. IfImpe rial Oil had paid its Another positive change that could be madeis 1992 deferred tax bill of $1.58 billion, we could that the work incentive for people on provincial have created 600,000 child care spaces in the social assistance could be increased, and this country or we could have built 54,000 social actually costs the government less money,because housing units. Now I could go on and on andtalk they are allowed to keepmore of their ownmoney about the business entertainment deduction, which andthat replaces money that was given to them in was reduced from 80 percent to 50 percent, but the form of social assistance. If the government should be eliminated so that taxpayers are no were to do that, that would remove one of the longer subsidizing corporations paying for sky barriers to employment. boxes at the Sky Dome, for example. Another one is taxation, because when people I hope that the Minister of Family Services will get a job they start paying taxes. The income tax support this resolution today. I would even be May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 2639

prepared tolook at a friendly amendment because • (1720) I think we need to send a message to Mr. The other thing that is being alleged by the Axworthy in Ottawa. I know this minister has previous speaker and the person who seems to alreadyput on record some ofher concerns thatwe want to speak while it is my tum is that it is are waiting for a vision from Ottawa. We have not designed to cut spending. Theprimary pmpose of seen the paper yet We have nothing to respondto. our social security reform is to build a better In fact, we need something like that so that system. Infa ct, sincema jor socialpolicy accounts Manitoba canprepare its position andso thatall of for about a quarter of total federal spending, us can critique whateverit is thatMr. Axworthy is excluding seniors, it is important that we get this doing. kind of money oriented towards something that Mr. Speaker, I hope that all members will cando some good. The 1994 budget of the federal support thisresolution. Thankyou. government establishes thattransfers to provinces for social programs be no higher in Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Mr. will 1996-97 present. So, ifwe cannot expectan increase Speaker, the premise of this resolution is that we than at in money to flow, then we need to figure out the are moving too quickly and that Canadians value this and support programs and therefore we should ways in which we can get money working better. return to the days of the past and do nothing to make changes. Another point that was made by the previous speaker is that we should be building on the I thinkthe first question thathas getto addressed is, do we in fact need to do any refonn? In fact, successes of the past and imitating them. For social security refonn is an essential part of any example, he used as a suggestion thatthe ways of strategy to remove dependence o�interjection] eliminating povertyin seniors shouldbe viewed as Excuse me, lthinkit ismy tum.It isessential that a modelfor developing programs for families and we look at the social services system if we are children.He acknowledged himselfthat thereason going toreduce dependence onsocial security and, seniors are less poor is because more seniors are in fact, get people working again. There is no continuing to wodclonger. The solution is not to be question thatjob markets andthe skillsthat people found in topping up income as an alternative to need to get and keep jobs and to earn their worlc but providing Canadians with the skills and families' incomes and even the structure of the job opportunities which will in fact offe r families have all changed. Our income support families theopportunity toearn. systems were designed for an era which is long I thinkanother thing that the speaker spent a lot past So we need to create a system thatflexible is of time talkingabout waswhether or not thiskind and which responds quickly to economic and of initiative, or the initiative that was taken with social change. respect to unemployment insurance, was in fact a We need tobegin by detennining what kindsof diabolical plot intended to punish people who are things should be part of a social policy reform on unemployment insurance. I thinkit is important process.The firstth ing we need to recognizeis that to talk about the February 22 budget announce­ Canadians want towork. Canadians do not wantto ments with respect to the ways in which it was beon unemployment insurance, and Canadians do intended that the measures introduced under C-17 not want to be receiving social assistance. would worlc.The intention wasto provide relieffor Canadians want to work. Sowe needto look at the employers so that the UIrate would go down and way in which programs provide temporary income that money would in fact tum around and be support for people who find themselves without creating jobs.more worlc. We need to ensure that any programs that Thething that we needto look at isthe deficitfor arein existence,in fact, sustainpeople in their time the unemployment insurance program ballooned to of needbut do not create anongoing dependency. $6 billion by the end of 1993. The federal 2640 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

government, in fact, did something that was say that this UI strategy is negative is speculative fiscally responsible anddid in fact recognize that atbest. the measures that were introduced would reverse Another thing that is interesting to me is the the trend of continuingly escalating premier costs previous speaker, the member for Burrows (Mr. for employers and workers. It is recognized that Martindale),said that the Liberal Party campaigns the premium rollback means that there will be like New Democrats and governs like 40,000more jobs inthe economy than would have Conservatives. Well, I would like to ask the existedhad the premium beenall owedto rise. That member for Burrows to explain how it is that the is40, 000 more Canadiansare who contributing to NDP, who supposedly also campaign like New the prosperity of the country as opposed to Democrats, got their clocks cleaned in the last receiving benefits from the unemployment federalelection. insurance system. Anyway, my purpose in standing up here today The other thing to recognize is that employees is to reaffmn the importance of social policy also pay the premiums. So over the same period reform. Social policy reform is a major employees will benefit aswell as employers. The commitment to change. I think indication is net effect will be that employers will have more present in this resolution that themover and the money to employ people. It will have the added seconder have no commitment to change. It benefit of lowering Canadian production costs, appears to me that what they are looking for is a encouragingexports making and domestic markets preservation of thestatus quo. What we needto do more competitive. is figure out the ways in which we can get Canadians backto work, offdependence andinto Anotherthing that isessential to this planthat is independence. People want to beindependent and premium rollbacks will create anenvironment for to care for themselves. They want choices and employment growth, butpremium reduction alone opportunities. isnot enoughto giveus aneffective UIsystem. So We cannot have an effective job strategy it is necessary to create a climate which gives withoutreforming thesocial security system. The recognitionto long-termwork records. reform, in fact, isto be aconsultative one. We have We knowthat almost half of Canadiansclaiming to recognize that the economy and the labour benefits work for 40 weeks or longer before market have changed, that more people are now making a claim. Inkeeping with this reality, it is unemployed for longer periods of time. Over important to proposechanges which strengthenthe 400,000young people are looking for work. Real linkbetween workhistory and eligibility.UI family incomes are lower than in the 1970s, even with both parents working. The nature and So I thinkthe member, in tiyingto impugnto the distribution of work has changed. Much federal government a motive of tiying to punish employment growth is nonstandard, andI have people who are on unemployment insurance or spent a lot of timein the House talking about this people who are in transient working situations, is in terms of the move from standardto nonstandard entirely incorrect. Infact, the proposals willmean jobs. that the benefitrate for people who aresupporting dependents will continue to be at 55 percent This • (1730) is animportant change, because Canada is one of Society and the workplace have changed the wealthiest industrialized nations, but we still dramatically, andit troubles me that the NDP are have 1.2 million children living inpoverty. So the not prepared to recognize the change or to affirm proposal will offer greater assistance to low­ theneed for makingsure thatwe change with the income UIclaim ants,those whohave dependents, times. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded those who are in most need, including women and by the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), that children. So, again,I would say thatany attempt to the resolution of the member for Burrows (Mr. May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2641

Martindale) be amended by deleting everything government'sagenda. At that point in time it was following thefirst WHEREAS andsubstituting the made very clear to all of us as provinces that the following: federal government was embalking upon putting we recognize the need to change our social to paper a vision andan action plan thatwould be safety nets; and a federal vision anda federal action plan. WHEREAS the provincial government should Indeed, I guess be was somewhat critical of the wolk with the federal government in its review of former federal government for not having a vision Canada's socialprograms ; and and not having a plan, and he indicated that be would put that kind of an action plan forward for WHEREAS Manitoba's Minister of Family Services bas declined to instigate a provincial provinces to respond to. review of Manitoba's social programs which There was some question andsome concern by wouldparallel the federalreview. many of theministers provincially right acrossthe 1HEREFORE BE IT FUR TilER RESOLVED country that this was a unilateral decision, and that thisLegislative Assembly urge theMinister of therewas concern that the advisory council that the Family Services to conduct a review of Manitoba's federal minister was going to put in place, social programs similarto the federalreview. surrounding him , appointed by the fe deral minister, did not include input from theprovinces . Motion presented. At that time,the federal ministermade it veryclear Mr. Speaker: The honourable member's that indeedit washis advisory panel of experts that amendment is inorder. was going to advise the federal government on a Bon.: Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Family federal vision for an action plan that would be Services):Mr. Speaker, I ampleased to rise in the shared with the provinces and that we would have House today andspeak to the amendment that was an opportunity then to respond andto react. put forward by the member for Osborne (Ms. Mr. Speaker, that process was supposed to be McCormick) regarding social policy review, the put in place, and there was supposed to be an originalresolution beingplaced on theOrder Paper action plan prepared by the federal government, by themember for Burrows (Mr. Martindale). available for provinces to look at and to provide I do want to go through, before speaking to the some input to at that point by all provinces, and amendment directly, the events that have taken that was to be ready by about the end of March. place since the new Liberal government was Then be was going to call together again the electedin Ottawaand a veryearly decision on their ministers from across the country andensure that part to change andrefonn Canada's social safety we bad some input into the draft before the final net. There was much dialogue around the issue and document came out. many announcements by the Minister of Human Resource Development, lloyd Axworthy, at the Well, it now is the end of May, going on into federal level, regarding a newapproach andmajor June, two months after that end-of-March changes to the social safety net reform that were deadline, andto date we have not seenthat action being contemplated by the new federal plan. We do know that the advisory committee that government. the minister surrounded himself with has reported to the federal government. We do know that there Mr. Speaker, very early on in the process be is, I would believe anyway, some sort of a draft indicated that it would be a process whereby he action plan in process or ready, and to date we called together all of the provinces andterritories have not badthe opportunity to see that. andasked for some input into theprocess. It would be around the middle of February-! think it was Now, we have had meetings that have been February 14 where fe deral and provincial cancelled, several meetings, one that was ministers met in Ottawa to discuss the federal scheduled around the end of March, middle of 2642 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

April,that was cancelled. Thefederal government • (1740) madethe decision tocancel the meeting. We saw a unilateral decision by the new Uberal An Honourable Member: Because of the federal government to change the way they Province of Quebec,unable toparticipate. provide support for Unemployment Insurance. Those were unilateral decisions, and we do not Mrs. Mitchelson: Well, I hear the member for know what the unilateral vision of the federal Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) indicating that the government might be, but it was clear that the Province of Quebec could notparticipate . I amnot federalminister did say that he wanted to present a sure what inside line he has to the Province of federal vision and a federal action plan, and we Quebec that might lead him to believe that the want to see that before we have anopportunity to Province of Quebec was not participating, but I develop a response. We have seen delay after would venture to guess that mostManit obans and delay after delay. We were first under the most Canadianswould liketo see what thefederal impressionthat wewould have federal legislation vision is for social safety net reform. H Quebec presented by fall. I am wondering ifwe areeven chose not to particip ate, I think that it would be going to have the actionplan, the federal vision by only fair thatthe rest ofthe provinces might have fall, in orderfor us to respond to. the opportunity to seethat action planand respond to it. Mr. Speaker, I want to reiterate clearly that we wantto be apart of the process, butwe do need to Well, Mr. Speaker, wehave beenthrough many, know where thefe deral government believes their many years where Quebec did not participate in direction willtake Canadians. It is clear that they federal-provincial talks when the Conservative have had setbacks, that they have not had administration was in power federally, but we co-operation from all of the provinces, that wentahead with thosediscussions without Quebec provinces do not necessarilybe want to apart of a being at the table. So I believe that the federal process where they are told what is going to government could have called that meeting. There happen, but we do need to know. were enough of us who wanted to be parta of the I said clearly at that meeting with the federal process. I do wantto say that I do want to, andwe do want to as aprovince , bepart of a process. We minister that what we need to do is see the action plan tabled for all of us so that we will have the do want to have some input into social safety net - reform, and we do not disagree that it needs to opportunity to respond. Hit is not national reform, happen. We know that we need major reform of the provinces certainlycould go ahead andlook at our social safety net, that you cannotcontinue with their own social programs. We are indeed doing programs that have been in place for decades that, and we make changes as we believe those changes need to be made, but the federal without reviewing and evaluating and changing, if thereis a needfor change,and we agreethere is a government's unilateral decisions could have far­ needfor change. reaching implications on us as provinces and on our taxpayeiS. We do alsoagree thatwe needthat fe deral vision So we have seen time andtime againwhere the before we have anopportunity tolook at what the fe deral governmenthas made decisions to offload, plan might be. We areconcerned that it is not just and we want to ensure that ifthere is social safety anoffioad onto theprovinces again. Wehave seen net reform that it is true reform, and it is not just many time s--and I will say we saw when there offioading their problems onto those of us who was a Conservative administration federally the have less ability to pay. federal government unilaterally offioaded support for First Nations off reserve for social assistance, So, Mr. Speaker, at this point, I would like to for child welfare. We are still reeling from the move, seconded by the member for Niakwa (Mr. resultsof a $25 million increase theto taxpayeiS of Reimer}, thatResolution 13 asamended befurther Manitoba as aresult. amended by deleting all words following the first May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2643

WHEREAS and replacing them with the why we are in support of this subamendment It following: flows very nicely from theoriginal resolution and WHEREAS growing welfare caseloads and in particular when it talks about the maintaining rising welfare expenditures are a serious concern "thatreform of the nation's socialsecurity system in Manitoba; is long overdue and should not bepre-empted by unilateral decisions by the federal government to WHEREAS thefederal government announced reduceits social spending." its intention to undertake a major reform of Canada'ssocial security system; Thatis exactly what we have bee talkingn about in the House in Question Period, what this WHEREAS the Manitoba government is resolutiondeals with, and what thesubamendmem supportive of efforts to reform the social security of the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. system so that clients will gain greater financial Mitchelson) deals with. I would like to put on self-sufficiency; record the fact that most certainly no New - WHEREAS the Manitoba government is Democrat, whether provincially or federally, implementing welfare-to-work initiatives that will disagreeswith theneed for socialservice reform. enhance work expectations, work incentives and We allknow thatwe arein the 1990s and not the jobtraining aspart of anoverall strategy to reduce 1960s. We all know�rtainly New Democrats dependency onsocial assistance; are very aware from talkingwith our constituents WHEREAS Manitoba is concerned about the and people in Manitoba and throughout the possible offloading of costs from the federal country-of the impacts that25 years of Liberal, government resulting from changes to the largely Liberal, federal governments have had on unemployment insurancepr ogram, reductions in the social service network in the country and in transfers to provinces andterritories in support of Manitoba. social programs, and withdrawal from When the member for Osborne (Ms. long-standingcost-sharing arran gements for Status McCormick) put her remarkson the record, she Indians living off-reserve. stated that, as she stated in questions and WHEREAS Manitoba maintains reformthat of comments before, the New Democrats and the thenat ion'ssocial security systemis long overdue governmem are in opposition to reform andwant and should not be pre-empted by unilateral to keep statusthe quo andlive in thepast. I cannot decisions by the federal government to reduce its particularly speak for the government, but I can social spending; speakfor New Democrats.last The thing we wam THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the to do is live inthe past and keepstatus the quo. LegislativeAssembly of Manitobaurge the fe deral • (1750) governmentnot to use thesocial securityreform as a means to offload costs to provinces and Mr.Speaker, what this government, this federal territories, and support the provincial Liberal government is doing is not social policy government's position that the provinces and refoDD. It is cutting and slashing in the guise of territories be full partners and participate in all social policy refoDD. The federal government is aspects of thesocial security refoDD process. pre-empting true social policy reform with its decisions to cut back transfer payments to the Motionpresented. provinces, with its decisions to cut back Mr. Speaker: The honourable minister's unemploymem insurance. subamendment is in order. The subamendment talks about the need for Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I provincial governments and territories to be full would liketo beginmy remarksby stating thatwe partners andparticipate inall aspectsof the social are in support of the subamendment to the security refoDD process, and as the Minister of amendment to the resolution. I would liketo state Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) put on the 2644 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

record just this afternoon, as she has before, the dependency. I thought that, when the member for federalMinister of Human Resources hasstated on Osborne talks about the unemployment insurance numerous occasions his wanting to consult and be program and dependency, she sounds very much partners, but hisactions have said no, no, no.His like the federal Conservative government, and a refusal or unwillingness to meet the provinces note,Mr. Speaker: A close watch needs to bekept shows that he really is not concerned with on the fallout fromthe Alberta budget. consultation. This is the budget that is going to cut in three I would like to ask:, along with the Minister of yearsthe deficit of thatprovince completely on the Family Services, where thisaction planis. How is backs of thepoorest and mostvulnerable people in the provincial government supposed to parallel thiscountty. this reformprocess ifthey do not know what the What works there in Albertawill usedbe in the federal govermnent is looking at? Where are the public hearings that were supposed to be social securityreform aswell. Now we talk about implemented before this alltook place? Where is honesty andintegrity in government. Mr. Speaker, the federal vision, as the Minister of Family I ask you, is this the work of an honest Servicessaid? government, a government that has integrity? I do not think so. Mr. Speaker, maybe a little bit more of the reading of the Social Security Reform We have not heard what isgoing to happen from Communications document that the member for the review from the policy analysts, what is Burrows (Mr. Martindale)talked about earlier, a happening in the federalgovernment TheMinister draftconfidential document from March21 of this of Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) has not year,might shedsome light on thosequestions . heard. None of the other provincial governments have been consulted atall, even thoughthe federal The social security reform document, called ministersaid that he would. strategy and action plan, says when it is talking about the budget and what is happening in the When the Minister of Family Services talks in countty, and quote:I Thebudget- i.e., the federal her RESOLVED about being full partners and Liberal budget-exacerbated concerns that the participating in all aspects of the reform process, government's only concernis cost-cutting. The UI the provinces are not participating. They are not cuts areseen evidence as thatgovernment wants to fullpartners , not because they have chosen not to - fight the deficit on the backs of the poor. Some be, becausethe federal government has chosennot groups are suspicious and looking for hidden to share anything with them. agendas. What a surprise. Also, some groups are Again, in this document that was the Social concerned thattime frames are too tight for full Security Reform Communications document, it discussion. talksabout community distribution vehicles of the We have not hada single public hearing.We do program, of the reform, none of which we have not know what has happened. All we can do is seen yet. Very interesting. They are going to listen and look and see what the federal distribute it to grocery stores. They are going to government has actually done, which is cut distribute it through YMCAs. Regional human unemployment insurance, cut social housing, cut resource development offices will be asked to transfer payments. develop a distribution plan tailored to their The only visible campaigns mounted to date are provinces and mindful of provincial sensitivities. aroundUI cuts andthe budget, andthe government How are they going to know what theprovincial is veryconcerned about the implied message that sensitivities areif they have not consulted with the program usersclients and are lazyand dependent. provinces? I do not think it is implied. The member for But most particularly,and most importantly, and

Osborne (Ms. McCormick) talked about most interestingly, I think , there is a headline, May 30, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2645

Special 'lbinl Party, and I am going to quote the governmentin this,and we want tosend messagea entireparagraph: to Ottawa. Thankyou. We propose-this is the federal Liberal Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, government-to approach not the unemployed actually, I thinkthere if is a concise message that help centres, not the provincial advocacy groups, we would want to send the federal government, it not the socialpl anning councils, not the Canadian is one of incompetence that the NDP party Council on SocialDevelopment for distributionor continues to provide to this Chamber on a day-in allocation. andday-out basis andthe coalition that bas been No, Mr. Speaker, who arethey going to consult? formed in theProvince of Manitoba. Theyare going to approachthe Canadian Bankers' We starttoday off with Question Period, where Associationto allowdistribution of thework book we get the Leader of the New Democratic Party throughout all Canadian branch banksandtrust (Mr. Doer)lobbing a questionover tothe Premier

- companies. There is a bank or trust company in (Mr. Filmon) so be could take a hit at the federal virtually every community in the country, no government. How do we end the day, Mr. questionabout it. Speaker? We tryto end theday by themember for (Ms. Barrett) Now ,this is another significant phrase in this Wellington in her hypocritical way paragraph that I think all members would be saying how bad � interested in hearing: This initiative will provide Mr. Speaker: Order,ple ase.We aregoing to deal significant third-party credibility to the reform withone point of order at a time. process. Points ofOrder So it is the Canadian Bankers' Associationthat is going to provide credibility to the reform Bon. Donald Ordlard (Minister of Energy and process, not the Canadian Council on Social Mines): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I Development, not theprovincial governments, not wonderif my honourable friendthe Liberal House the local provincial advocacy groups, not the leader might also acknowledge that his Leader antipoverty organizations. It is the Canadian lobbeda question over tothe Premier today, too. Bankers' Association. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable An Honourable Member: No. That is the Minister of Energy and Mines does not have a Liberals'social poli cy platform. point of order. Ms. BaJTett: The Liberals' socialpolicy platform • •• is going to be distributed through the banks. Mr. Ms. BaJTett: Mr. Speaker, I would like to askthe Speaker, yes, they are in every community in the member for Inkster to withdraw his comments country, and I thatthink it is very interesting that about my hypocritical actions and wonls asbeing they do not talk about talking with theprovinces. unparliamentary. They shut theprovin ces out of this whole process except throughoffioading of millionsand ionsmill Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I do not want the of dollars onto the provincial governments at the memberfor Wellington (Ms.Barre tt) to take great same time that they can standup in thisHouse and offence from it. I willwithdraw that. in otherHouses andin thefed eralgovernment and Mr. Speaker: We thank the honourable member spout on about how wonderful their social policy for Inkster(Mr. Lamoureux). is. The member for Osborne (Ms. McCormiclc)can ••• get on her high and mighty horse and say how dreadfulit isthat we arenot supporting thisterrible Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, I think it is very process. Well, Mr. Speaker, I and my colleagues important when the member for Wellington says, on this side of the House want a vote on this look,they have notbeen d oingany consulting. She subamendment. We want to support the knows fullwell that tis no true. Why does shenot 2646 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 30, 1994

talk to the memberfor Burrows (Mr. Martindale) happening, demonstrate very clearly what the where be, I understood, attended the Social reason-- Planning Council, wherethere was a considerable Mr. Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is amountof dialogue. again before the House, the honourable member The member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) willhave 13 minutes herself made reference to the Social Planning remaining. Council andsaid thatthe federalgovernment is not The hour being 6 p.m., I am leaving the Chair even consulting with organizations of thisnature. with the understanding that the House will Well, those sorts of statements, complete reconvene at eight o'clock in Committee of contradictions in terms of what is actually Supply. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Monday, May 30, 1994

CONTENTS

RO�NE PROCEEDINGS Hog Industry McConnick;Eons; Praznik 2581 Readingand Receiving Petitions Judicial System-ThePas Misericordia GeneralHospital Latblin; vodrey 2582 IncorporationAct Laurendeau 2573 CrisisShelters Barrett;Mitchelson 2583 Tablingof Reports NonpoliticalStatements First QuarterReport,

.... ManitobaTelephone System ManitobaAssociation of RegisteredNurses Stefanson 2573 Awards Filmon 2583 Estimates: NorthernAff airs; CivilService Doer 2583 Commission; Manitoba:Employee Benefits Edwards 2584 and OtherPayments Pramik 2573 Aga KhanFoundation Partnership Walk McConnick 2584 OralQuestions

BristolAerospace Limited Doer; FiJmon 2573 Aerospace Industry ORDERS OF THE DAY Doer; Downey 2574 Committee of Supply HealthSciences Centre Cbomiak; McCrae 2575 Education andTraining 2586 Justice 2612 Economic Growth Edwards; Stefanson 2575 Private Members' Business Hog Industry Proposed Resolutions C. Evans; Driedger; FiJmon 2577 Wowcbuk; Eons 2579 Res. 13, Social Policy Review Martindale 2635 Municipal SocialAssistance Amendment Martindale; Mitchelson 2580 McConnick 2639 Mitchelson 2641 SocialSafety Net Refonn Barrett 2643 Martindale; Mitchelson 2580 Lamoureux 2645