FifthSession • Thirty-Fifth Legislature

of the

Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS

(Hansard)

Published under the authorityof The Honoumble Denis C. Rocan Speaker

Vol. XLUI No. 54 • 1:30 p.m;,Thursday, June 23, 1994

JSSNOS42-5492 MANITOBALEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-FifthLegislature

Members, Constituenciesand PoUticalAmUation

NAME CONSTITUENCY PARTY. ASHrON,Steve Thompson NDP BARRE'IT,Becky VVellington NDP CAURSTAlRS,Sharon RiverHeights Liberal CERILLI, Marianne Radisson NDP CHOMIAK. Dave Kildonan NDP CUMMINGS,Glen, Hon. Ste.Rose PC DACQUAY,Louise Seine River PC DERKACH.Leonanl, Hon. Roblin-Rossell PC DEWAR,Gregory Selkirk NDP DOER,Gary Concordia NDP DOWNEY, James,Hon. Arthur-Vinlen PC DRIEDGER,Albert, Hon. Steinbach PC DUCHARME,Gerry, Hon. Riel PC ln>VV)URJ)S,Paul St. James Liberal ENNS,Harry, Hon. Lakeside PC ERNST, Tun,Hon. Cbarleswood PC EVANS,Clif Interlake NDP EVANS,Leonard S. Brandon Bast NDP FILMON,Gary, Hon. Tuxedo PC FINDLAY,Glen, Hon. Springfield PC FRJBSBN, Jean VVolseley NDP GAUDRY,Neil St. Boniface Liberal GIILESHAMMER,Harold, Hon. Minnedosa PC GRAY,Avis Ctescentwood Liberal HEL EdwardWER, R. Gimli PC IUCKES, George Point Douglas NDP KOVVALSKI, Gary TheMaples Liberal LAMOUREUX,Kevin Inkster Liberal LA'IHLIN,Oscar ThePas NDP LAURBNDEAU,Matcel St. Norbert PC MACKINTOSH,Gmd St. Johns NDP MALOVVAY,Tun Blmwood NDP MANNESS,Clayton, Hon. Morris PC MARTINDALE,Doug BU11'0WB NDP McALPINE,Gerry SturgeonCreek PC McCORMICK,Noona Osborne Liberal Mc�,James,Hon. Brandon VVest PC MciNTOSH,Linda, Hon. Assiniboia PC MITCHELSON,Bonnie, Hon. RiverBast PC ORCHARD, Donald,Hon. Pembina PC PAILISTER,Brian PortaseIa Prairie PC PENNER,Jack Emerson PC PLOHMAN,John Dauphin NDP PRAZNIK,Damn, Hon. Lac du Bonnet PC REID, Daryl Tranacona NDP REIMER,Jack Niakwa PC RENDER,Shirley St. Vital PC ROBINSON,Eric Rupertsland NDP ROCAN,Denis, Hon. Gladstone PC ROSB,Bob Thrtle Mountain PC SANTOS,Conrad Broadway NDP SCHBLLBNBBRG,Harry Roumete NDP STBFANSON,Eric , Hon. Kirldield Palk PC STORIE,Jerry· FlinFlon NDP SVBINSON,Ben LaVetendrye PC VODREY,Rosemary, Hon. Fort Garry PC VVOVVCHUK,R osann SwanRiver NDP 4007

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, June 23,1994

The Housemet at 1:30 p.m. no longer meet either educational or building standards. Completion date for construction of PRAYERS Greenway School isDecember 1997. ROUTINEPROCEEDINGS Thereplacement of anold sectionof Foxwarren PRESENTINGPETITIONS School in Birdtail River School Division No. 38 withpredesigned classrooms, the construction of a PbarmacareBenefit Levels new administration area minorand renovations to Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second the gym, completiondate December '94. Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Henrique Rigatto, Don Cates, Kim The new projects include, Mr. Speaker, Kwiatkowskiand requestingothers the Legislative replacement of the older section of the Hazel M. Assembly urge the Minister of Health (Mr. Kellington School in Beautiful Plains School McCr ae) to considerrestoring Pbarmacare benefits DivisionNo. 31, theconstruction of a 2,200square to theirprevious levels. foot addition to the physical education multipurpose room at Crystal City Elementary MINISTERIALSTATEMENTS AND School in Pembina Valley School Division, the TABUNG OF REPORTS construction of a new K- 8 French immersion school in St. Vital School Division No. 6, and Bon. Clayton Manness (Minister ofEducation completion date for the construction of the Ecole and Training): Mr. Speaker, I would like to, Ashworth Schoolis September '95. firstly,table theTeachers ' RetirementAll owances FundBoanl, 1993 AnnualRepo rt. I willlet themembers read the ofrest thelist on theirown. The$1 8.3-MillionCapital Construction Capital ConstructionProgram Program is expected to create 365 jobs. I would Bon. Clayton Manness (MinisterEducation of like to say that these capital construction projects and Training):I would liketo make a ministerial have beencarefully considered, andpriorities have statement, please. been chosen on the basis of school board requests and long-range capital plans. They are an rise It givesme greatpleasme to in the House indication of this government's commitment to today to announce an $18.3 million capital improving the public school system by ensuring construction program for '94-95 that includes 15 thatstudents have the facilities they needfor their initiatives for Manitoba's public school system as education. Thankyou. recommended by the Public Schools Finance Board. • (1335) The projects range from roof repair and Mr.Gary Doer(Lea der of theOpposition) : Mr. replacement projects to the construction of three Speaker, I thankminister the for hisstatement. new schools and the planningof a fourth. I believe that we completed the Education Thecapital construction program includes these Estimates a couple of weeks ago, and it is rather projectsidentified in previousbudgets to bestarted typicalthat we areseeing the capital visionof this in this fiscal year, Mr. Speaker, firstly, government well after the budget Estimates have construction of a new N-6 school in Winnipeg beencompleted. Thisis asimilar situationto what School Division No. 1 to replace two schools that we bad in the Department of Health. We would 4008 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

like, at some point, to have a discussion of capital timing, as the Leader of the Opposition has decisions that the government is making in the indicated. overall context of the total Estimates so that we However, having said that as the Leader of the can have a comprehensive review of these Opposition has referred to-although I think he proposals. has a bit of the historical synopsis wrong-it is Secondly, Mr. Speaker, we are aware that the very good to see that listed No. 1 is the public education systemhas been decimated by the construction of a new Greenway School. Thathas provincial government For two yearsin a row,the been a long time coming for the residents of the publiceducation system hasbeen reduced by this west end area who also happen to be my government, so forthis minister to standup in this constituents. House and feign his commitment to the public Through thatexperience, I have seenthis school education system runs hollow in terms of the rideliterally the topprlorities of the capital schools spendingpriori ties. finance board for a number of years. There were, Onthe specific proposals, Mr. Speaker, we are let us say, some difficulties, I think,delays and in pleased after six years in government that the dealing with the school board. However, we were very pleased to see that resolved recently and Greenway School has beenved. appro I know that happyto see thisincluded in thispro ject. theWinnipeg School Division has pushedfor this for thelast few years. I pleasedam that minister the I can assure the minister it will be very well and the chair of the Winnipeg School Division received indeed from those parents, many of have proceededwith this project, although it is a whom startedthis discussion and effortthis when little later than we would have wanted and Iam theirwere children firstentering that school.The sure the chairof the Winnipeg School Division children are now graduating, andwe arejust now would have preferred. seeingproj this ectcome to fruition. I would alsocaution members opposite. I recall I am sureequally that meritorious are otherthe in July of 1990, there was a major announcement projectsin thisann ouncement, Mr. Speaker, and I of capital expenditures in the Department of do want to congratulate the minister on coming Health. I also recall shortly after the September forward with thislevel of capital projects in this date of 1990, after the unfortunate majority coming year. As well, I am sure there are many government was obtained, that many of these othersthat deserving are and therethat mayin fact capital decisions evapmated andared. disappe So be some disappointment today around the we will judge the capital decisions of this province. government brick by brick. We will judge their I think it behooves us as members of this commitment to thepubli c educationsystem dollar Legislature to make a continuing commitment to by dollar. We willnot judge them bypress release public education and a critical part of that is a alone. continuing commitment to adequately fund the Thankyou veJ:Y much. construction of facilities in the public school system to properly educate our children. Thank Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second you. Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I am veey pleased to see this Capital Construction Program come ••• forward, albeit I askedthe minister some time ago Bon.Eric Stefanson (Ministerof Finance): Mr. for it and knowI thatin theEstimates processthe Speaker, I am pleased to table the 1994-95 ministerhad indicated hethat did not wantto come ReveiWeEstimates. forward with it He calledit privileged,and I think that we have some concern over perhaps the • (1340) June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4009

PRESENTING REPORTS BY Commissioner of the Republic of Zimbabwe.On STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES behalf of all honourable members,I would like to Committeeof Supply welcome you herethis aftern oon. Mr. Speaker: Isthere leave to revertto Presenting Also with us this afternoon inthe gallery to my Reports by Standing and Special Committees? left, we have ChiefRalph Caribou of the Mathias [agreed] Colomb Cree Nation in Pukatawagan. Accompanying Chief Caribou is Elizabeth Bear Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of who is a government liaison officer. These are Committees): The Committee of Supply has guests of the honourable member for F1in Flon adopted certain resolutions, directs me to report (Mr.Stori e). the same andasks leave to sit again. Also, we have from the Andrew Mynarski I move, secondedby thehonourable memberfo r Schoolthirteen Grades 8 and students9 underthe La Verendrye(Mr. Sveinson), that reportthe the of directionof Mr. Lebar.This school is located in the committee bereceived. constituency of thehonourable memberfor Inkster Motion agreedto. (Mr.Lamoureux). INTRODUCTIONOF BILLS From the Van Walleghem School, we have seventy Grade 5 students under the direction of Bill28-The Oft'-RoadVehicles Ms. Kim Peppler. This school is located in the Amendment Act constituency of the honourable First Minister (Mr. Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Filmon) . Mr.Speaker, would you seekleave of theHouse to introduce for first reading today, Bill 28, The On behalfall of honourable members, Iwould Off-RoadVehicles AmendmentAct. liketo welcome you here thisafternoon. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave of the House to • (1345) introduce Bill 28, The Off-Road Vehicles ORAL QUESTION PERIOD AmendmentAct, as I understandit? Isthere leave? [agreed] Kenaston Underpass Justification Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and Transportation): I thank members of the House, Mr.Ga ry Doer (Leader of theOppositio n): Mr. Mr.Speaker. Speaker,I wantto ask Premierthe again about the Kenaston underpass, aproj ect, of course, that we I would like to move, seconded by theMinister raised on May 26, and projecta and areaan of the of Natural Resources (Mr.Driedger), thatleave be citythat Premier the has dealt withfor a numberof givento introduceBi11 28, TheOff-Road Vehicles years, even going backto hisCity Halldays when, Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les at that point, hewas opposing the federal Liberal v�hicules a caract�re non routier), and that the government in placing the trucking centre in the same benow received and read a firsttime. area where it is now located.When I raised this Over the course of Question Period, I will question on May 26, 1994,I was raising thewhole distribute to my criticsthe spreadsheets for thebi ll. issueof the $30-million expenditure asthe largest Motion agreedto. amount of money in the whole infrastructure programgoing to a very questionable project with Introduction ofGuests very little, in our opinion, cost benefits and with Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I very littleanticipation of the future. directthe attention of honourable members to the The Winnipeg transport study was not Speaker's Gallery, where we have with us today completed. The whole issue of relocating rail, Her Excellency Lillie Chitaura who is the High truckair and sites to the vicinity ofthe airport had 4010 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

not been completed and, of course, the whole part of theinfrastructure needs, and I might say situation with the CN and CPmerger was still that the project also, of course, includes the raising numbers of questions about the long-tenn twinning of Kenaston between Wilkes and viability of theproposed $30-million expenditure. Scmfield Road, and ifanybody has driven inthat area and does not believe that that is ahazardous I would like to ask the Premier: In light of the route with the tremendous volume of traffic it fact that at City Hall, in 1993, onthe administrati takes, then I would say that that person is requested that the city look, examine andexp lore, itresponsible. in consultation with the railway, the trucking industry and the residential neighbourhoods, the • (1350) feasibility of relocating the CN intermodal Cost-BenefitAnalysi s tenninalvis-A-vis the site at Kenaston, and in light of thefact that we areall workingtowards a planto Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): go closerto therailway for trucking sites, why are Neither is it a fabrication to note that the $30 we proceeding with the $30-million proposal mUlion is the most amount of money that the underneath the railway trackwhose future we do federal, provincial and civic governments and not know? municipal governments all across this province have allocated to a project that they are now Bon. Gary FUmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, puttingon the fasttrack, Mr. Speaker. nonnally when one isspeculating on thefuture of a particular facility such as a rail line, the first 1bere are a numberof citizens in thePremier 's people youshould ask arethe people who own that own riding who arequite concerned that they are rail line what their intentions are. Since that the David fighting against the Goliath with the questioohas been askedasked, and publicly, and federal govemmentand Premierthe and citythe all since the answer hasbeen uneq uivocally that that againsttheir concerns about theirlocal issues. CN main rail line will remain there, I find it Mr. Speaker, we are spending $30 million on difficult to understand why the Leader of the this project. We have designated $30 million for Opposition would perpetrate some false this underpass, andtheCity of Winnipeg planner expectationsor falsehopes about relocation, when of transportation andresearch indicates that there CNitself says that the railremain linewill there as hasbeen no detailedbenefit, cost andprioritization itsmain line. analysis, that it was not undertaken for the That is the only infonnation on whichwe have Kenaston underpassproj ect. to go. It is not speculative. It is not something Would the Premier now stop this project and fabricated by the Leader of the Opposition. It is have the cost-benefit analysis and prioritization fact. analysis of thispro ject? Secondly, Mr. Speaker, that gradeseparation is Bon. Gary FUmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the No. 1 priority grade separation in the City of when the Leader of the Opposition was the W"mnipeg's transportationplans . So why would Minister of Urban Affairs, he did not cause a theynot wantto see gradea separationthere when cost-benefit analysis to be done when he tochose thereis indeed-therehave beenmany accidents, build a bridge overthe Red River, a ChiefPeguis collisions and other things in and around that Trail, a bridgethat was not thecity 's No. 1 priority intersection, andall of thatrationale is behind why at the time, but he put $10 million of provincial that was chosen. money on the table asthe carrot inorder to force the city govemment atthe time to build that bridge I might say, Mr. Speaker, that three levels of government, in a co-operative effort to try and which wasnot its No. 1 priority. meet the, needs the highestpriority needs of the It wasnot itsNo. 1 priority, but hesaid, we want infrastructure of Winnipeg and this entire thisto go tothe topof the list, itbecause services province, have agreed on thatproj particular ectas the East Kildonan-North Kildonan area he June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4011

represented and thatothers represented.That isthe We know what motivates and drives the Leader kindof politicshe played,Mr. Speaker. of the Opposition, and we know that there are opportunities in place for the people to make their We are not playing politics with this. This is legitimate concerns heard, and they will be three levels of government, three levels of listenedto. government that arebuilding a project that has been on the books for a long time. It is the No. 1 Pukatawagan, Manitoba priority grade separation for the City of Public Health Emergency Winnipeg's transportation plans. That iswhy it is going ahead. Mr. JerryStorie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, my questionis to the Minister of Health. lodependent Re� Thecommunity ofPukatawaganhas been fa cing Mr. Gary Doer(Leader of theOpposition) : The a health emergency forapprox imately sixmonths . Premier will rmd a cost-benefit analysis, Mr. Duringthat time, the community hasbeen forced Speaker, before we did match the city grants as to boil all of its water, a community of partof the $1 00-million city capital project, but approximately 1,700 or 1,800people because of even if there wasnot, two wrongs do not make a the inadequacy of the water treatment plant, and right There was an analysis, andIwould ask the the consequences-and I wantto table this-are Premier reviewto iL some 1,100 casesof skindisease in a populationof 1,700.Intestinal diseases, as well, rampant.are There is no cost-benefit analysis, Mr. Speaker, and the citizens of that area believe their own Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of MLA notis representing theirinterests in termsof Health. Will the Minister of Health use his office the people adjacent to the Kenaston area. They and the public health office representative to believe thatpoliticians, the thePremier, the south attendPukatawagan to detennine thescale of the end federal M.P.s have stacked thecards against health emergency in thatcommunity andpelbaps them, and they cite as evidence the fast-track: outline some remedial measures that should be processthat is outlined in theproje ctguideline. taken to resolve thatproblem? Mr. Speaker,will Premierthe then grant his own • (1355) constituentsand peoplethe in hisown community, Bon. James McCrae (Mioisterof Health): Mr. along with the people of Manitoba that are Speaker, I thank thehonourable member for the concernedabout this $30-million expenditure,will question. He has raised this with me previously the Premier grant an independent review of this andoutlines to me what I believe to be a matterof process as thesepeople have asked, so that they seriousimportance forthe people in theregion to canhave anobjective review, and we astaxpa yers whichhe refers. can get an objective review of this $30-million I have had ons,discussi throughmy office,with expenditure? Dr. Guilfoyle, OliefMedical Officerof Health, to Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, this findout whathe thinksabout this particular matte r. evening there willpublic bea forum for people to We really ought to engage the local member of make their viewsknown, for people to express Parliamentin thisdiscussion, aswell , aswell as the their concerns and put on the table legitimate representatives of theband and theSwampy Cree issuesto do with that particularproj ect. Tribal Council. Those people will be able to do so in a public I understandthat the federal government makes forum, and not tty and do what the Leader of the some dollars available to the tribalcouncil for the Oppositionis doing, making cheappolitics out of purpose of looking aftermedical health issues in this to try and pit one area of Manitoba against those regions, andSwampy Cree nothas usedthe another areaof Manitoba. dollars made available, I understand, for that 4012 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

pwposeto thispoint . Now, that doesnot meanthey the earliest opportunity to begin the process of have not done anything, because I have not assessing the health risk first-hand from a ascertainedwhat else they might have done. provincial point of view? Certainly, this matter should be raised at the Mr. McCrae : The honourable member's band level and also with the federal govemment. suggestion about the declaration of a health Our government is responsible for issuing those emergency iscertainly somethingI willfollow up kinds of orders to ensure immediate safety, but with Dr. Guilfoyle's office and Health staff, if that other levels of government are responsible for isthe appropriate thing, according to their advice. remediation of theproblem . Of course, the honourable member's urgings and Mr. Storie : The community understands that the my own are now on the record, so we willmake surethe that concern is understood. federal government, who is responsible for the infrastructure, would be responsible for BurnsCommittee remediation. Report Tabling Request Mr. Speaker, the community hasbeen without Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second safe drinking water, safe water to use for Opposition): Mr. Speaker, thismorning, we have householdpwposes, for bathing,for morethan six had confirmed by two members on the Burns months. committee that the report has, in fact, been My question to the minister is, if the Health completed. I would ask the First Minister if, in department officials are prepared to declare a fact, he is aware of that, if he has received the health emergency in the community of reportand will tablinghe be it today. Pukatawagan, will ministerthe agree to meetwith Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I the federal minister of health and welfare of have not yet received the report, and I am still Canada andthe federalMinister Indian of Affairs awaitingthe resultsfrom theBums committee . to push for a solution to this long-standing and unsatisfactorysituation? Mr. Edwards: Well, Mr. Speaker,I trustthat the First Minister will, in fact, seek his own Mr. McCrae : I believe the suggestions the confumation that ithas been completed and seek honourablemember makes are worthwhile and are to receivethat report aspossib soonas le, giventhe certainly worth considering very seriously. time constraints that the entire situation is Whether weall do of thoseor things someof them, CWTentlyunder . I will report back to the honourable member. I intend to follow thismatter up. • (1400) The relationship of the community with the WinnipegJets federal government I did not thinkso was tenible, Bond Issue but somethingis going on in the sensethey that are Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second not gettingjob the done,and it needsto get done. Opposition): My second question for the First The honourable member's concern is very well Minister: This morning in the Department of placed, and I am sure it is shared by all of the Finance Estimates, there was a lot of discussion people inthe community. about thesuccess that province the has hadbond in Mr. Storie : Mr. Speaker, it is somewhat ironic issues, whetherit bethe Grow BondsProgram, the that the Mathias Colomb Band is the only Hydro and Builder Bonds, as a means of raising Manitoba band that is the signatory to Treaty 6, local capital and retaining that capital in the which specifically references the federal provinceof Manitoba. obligationto health, themedicine chest. I have raised this previously with the First My question to the ministeris, willthe minister Minister. Has the First Minister spoken to the authorizestaff to travelto Pukatawagantoday or at Ministerof Financeor hisdepartment officials and June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4013

preparedthat as anoption for theraising of capital theprincipal was being paid down. It wasraised as for the Winnipeg Jets, potentially a new arena, a suggestion which I felt needed clearing up. The privatemoney through a bondissue ? FirstMinister indicated that hehad no knowledge and that hewould look into it. Hasthat optionbeen pmsued so thatit canbe put forwardin a relatively shorttime spanin theevent Does he have information today, Mr. Speaker, that that is seen as a way to raise capital to preserve about whether or not that allegation, in fact, has the team and, in fact, potentially finance a new anyvalidity? arena? Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier) : I amtold thatthe Bon. Gary Filmon (Pre mier): Clearly, the allegation hasno validity. government of Manitoba canissue bondsto raise In response to themember 's preamble, I wantto moneyfor anyparticular pmpo se.In thatparticular say that heis criticalof ustaking responsibility for case, though, it costs thepeople, the taxpayers of team losses. He now not only wants to take Manitoba the interest on those bonds. Secondly, responsibility forteam losses , but hewants to take the full cost of the loss of thatcapital, if the team responsibility for $150 millionto buy theteam and loses money, is totally then the responsibility of the arenaand the interest on thatannually. That is thegovernment. why he is taking a leap of faith well beyond My understanding, No. 1, is that people are not anything thathe has beencritical of. likely to put equity investment in an investment that is guaranteedto lose money,so who is going Point ofOrder to takethe responsibility the for lossesof puttingin the capital?So the governmentthen guarantees the Mr. Edwards: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, bonds,pays theinterest and, finally, is responsible the First Minister's response is spurious and for lossesbeyond thatdo I notsee howthat solves misguided. Therehas never ever been asuggestion the problem, Mr. Speaker. thatit necessitateda guarantee or- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable FinandaiStatu s member does not have a point of order. The Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second honourablemember clearly has disputea overthe Opposition): The verylosing inve stment that the facts. Thereis nopoint of order. First Minister says the people of this province would never invest in, he on their behalf has Northern Fly-inSpo rtsCamps invested heavily in and has committed us to a LotteryRe venues long-term commitment to thatvery losing venture Bon. Jim Ernst (Minister charged with the thathe hasjust talkedabout. administration of The Manitoba Lotteries Mr. Speaker, the issue of a guarantee, the issue Foundation Act): Mr.Speaker, I took as notice, of interest payments, are not issues that are on, I believe, Tuesday last, questions from the necessaryto abond issue. memberfor Rupertsland(Mr. Robinson). My finalquestion is forthe Minister.First The member for Rupertsland questioned why thenumber ofcommunities servedby theNorthern Many weeks ago, I believe three weeks ago, I Fly-In Sports program bad dropped from16 to six raisedwith the MinisterFirst the issue, and castI it in just thepast two years. as what remains today, which is the suggestion that, in fact, some of the initial capital which was I can advise the memberthat the program will used as the buy-in to the NHL by this franchise, operatewith sixcommunities this year,it as did in approximately $5 million, I am led to believe, 1993. In 1992, the program did not have 16 which has simply been financed in the interim communities,Mr. Speaker; it hadfo ur. In 1991, it period,was, in fact,being paid down. At thispoin t,, had seven, and in 1990,it hadeight. Themember 4014 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA June 23, 1994

would have to go all the way back to 1989 before now, asof this morning,no commitment has been there were 16 communities in theprogram. made, and just 15 people areworldng at theport. The second question I took asnotice was why What commitment has the Minister of there has not been an increase of the $50,000 Transportation had fromWheat the Boardor CNR currently committed. Themember should be aware concerningthe port yea this r!! that government officials met frequently with Bon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Highways and NorthernFly-In Sport s Campslast year todevelop Tnnsportation): Mr. Speaker, I can inform the an ropriateapp level of funding. member that we do not have any additional Againstthe budgetof $182,000, theDepartment information on what he has brought to theHouse of Northern Affairs hascontributed $50,000, not today. Again, we refer back to Manitoba Liberal from Lotteries but from the AJI fund. The M.P.s in terms of their commitment that a million Manitoba Community Services Council also tonnes should go through the Port of Churchill. allocated $50,000 in lottery funding. CareerStart The season is now very close to being upon us. has contributed $8,400, and the Manitoba Nextmonth, the ships should becoming in. Telephone System has also made a corporate We now have a federal Liberal government in contribution. That represents a total provincial place in Ottawa which is responsible for the commitmentof $108,600,represe nting 60percent Canadian WheatBoard, responsible forfollowing of the camp's budgeL upon thatcommitment they made to the citizensof Manitoba that a million tonnes should go through The province has beenthe most reliable fonder there. I fully expect them to follow up on that of thispro jectand methas theexpectations of the commitment, andwe expect announcements from board of the Northern Fly-In Sports program. them at any time to fulfill the commitment they There is also a complementary program run have made tothe citizens of Manitoba. through the Department of Recreation providing another $150,000 for training of northern Mr. Robinson: Mr. Speaker, has the minister recreation directors, providing long-term received any response from the federal Transport community-based fundingand omm c unity-based ministerconcerning the opposition of Manitoba to leadership. the elimination of the grain transportation subsidies? I am referring directly to the letter that Port of Churdlill was signed by this honourable minister and the Grain Exports honourable Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Eons). Mr. EricRobins on (Rupertsland): Mr. Speaker, Mr.Find lay:Mr. Speaker,we senta letter on June I will have further discussions with the minister 19 to the honourable Doug Young, theMinister of with respect to my previous questions on the Transport in the federal Liberal government. To NorthernFly-In Spo118 Camps. this date, we have no acknowledgement of his receivingthe letter or anyresponse it. to Today my question is for the Minister of Transportation. Mr. Robinson:Mr. Speaker, my finalquestion is to thesame minister. The situation facing the Port of Churchill is becoming increasingly serious, as it does about Considering the seriousness of the situation, is the minister prepared to consider sending an this time of the year each year. This week, town officials met with the Director General of Ports all-partydelegation to Ottawa to press the federal Canada, Mr. Bob Tytanec. Mr.Bob Tytanec also government to live upto theircommitment of one met with the Wheat Board officials this week, million tonnes of grainthis yea r!! yesterday, in fact, and the report thathe brought Mr.Findlay: Mr. Speaker, wecertainly expect the back was there wasnothing new to report. While federalLiberal government to respondto a number graincould andshould be shippedout of the port of issues in front of us. I think I have told the June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4015

memberthat we have sent some 14 letters and got Where do disadvantaged and unemployed response to four. Manitobans turnfor training? I can tell the member that provincial ministers Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, if the member is across the country aremeeting in Calgary on July asking me to reply to a question that should more 7. We fully expectMr. Young to be there, andwe legitimatelybe directed towards a federal member have brought a number of issues to his attention, or the federal minister, then I suggest the member including the ones raised by the member here and put that question to either Mr. Axworthy or, which arealso of equalconcern to otherTranspo rt indeed,the liberal government. ministers across western Canada. We expect Mr. Young to startconsulting withus and talkingto us Let me point out, however, though, this directly about what his plan is andhow heplans to government recognizes the impact on those who fulfill the promises made by his peers during the are unemployed who have been drawing support course of the last election. through that insurance program and, of course, • (1410) who will be caught in some of the changes, but, Mr. Speaker, being mindful ofthat statement, I Unemployment InsuranceCom mission also recognize thatthefund hasto continue to be TrainingFreeze supportable, that there have to be changes Ms.Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker,last considered, althoughwe willdo thebest we can to year, the federal government had spent all of its ensure that those in Manitoba who are impacted training allocations for Manitoba by July. This areimpacted in the least negative fashion. year, the monies were frozenby the beginningof Ms. June, and KCC,at forexample, I believe that this Friesen: Mr. Speaker, adult basic education, hasmeant the reductionofUIC- supportedtraining New CareersACCESS and are clearly provincial by about 50 percent. programs. That was what I was asking the minister. Will the Minister of Education tcllus what the impact of thishas beenon Manitoba? Could hetell WorkerAdjustment Branch us whether he has met or spoken with thefederal TrainingPrograms ministersince I firstraised this withissue him last week? Ms.Jean Friesen (Wol seley):I would like to ask the Minister of Labour a final supplementary Bon. Clayton (Ministerof Education Manness question, to explain why his department has and Training):Mr. Speaker, I have notmet with changed the programs under the worker Mr. Axworthy sincethat point intime, but we will behaving an intema1meeting today, preparing for adj ustmentsection of hisdepartment to reducethe the national meeting with respect to all the number of training opportunities for individuals ministries, andin our government, there are three froman estimated 275 to anestimat ed125. that areinvolved, asMr. Axwortby brings forward Bon. DarrenPraznik (Minister of Labour) : Mr. his blueprintfor socialref orm . Speaker, I think the key to the answer to this Ms.Friesen: Mr. Speaker, could the ministertell question lies in some of the wording of the us what advice he would give to those 50,000 questionitself; thatis, theestimate. unemployed Manitobans who have no UIC training support in Manitoba and who face The reduction that is shown in our budget is diminishingopportunities for trainingas aresult of reflective ofactually what our draw was on that the actions of this government in ACCESS particular fund, and Ilook forward to discussing programs, in New Careers and in adult basic this furtherwith her,in greaterdetail in Estimates, education? which I understandwe will intobe thisafternoon. 4016 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Health Care Facilities think we have developed to the extent that the Rape Assessments honourable memberis suggesting, but I would like . Ms. BeckyBaJTett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, a to know more about what she is suggesting woman is raped in Canada every six minutes. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I will provide some Currently there are in Manitoba no standardized informationthat I have to the honourable minister. protocols to deal with these victims in emergency rooms, andonly theHealth SciencesCentre andSt. Nurse-Managed Care Committee BonifaceHospital do rapeasse ssments. MNU Representation W'ill the Ministerof Healthe nsurewhen that the Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): My third Departments of Health, Justice, the major police question is also to the Minister of Health, andit is forces and the Manitoba hospital organizations that the implementation committee on meet, as he saidthey would yesterday, to establish nurse-managedcare basnow been struck. a protocol, that they set unifonn standards in all Can the minister explain why there are no Manitoba hospitals which include the training of representatives from the Manitoba Nurses' Union all medical staff, as recommended in the Pedlar on thisimplementation committee? report? Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Bon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, unions are there for the purpose of Speaker, yesterday, when I commented on this protecting the rights of workers. I do see a particularmatter, I made it clear that criminal distinction between an organization like a union activity is criminal activity, and if we and a standards-setting organization or a appropriately deal with victims coming into our regulation-setting organization, andwith respect,I hospital system and if there is a reporting do not quite understand. mechanism that can be used to protect other potential victims and to deal with the offenders, I do recall askingMNU the to join us for some thenwe shouldbe doing that. round table discussions on issues relating to the role of nurses and educational issues for nurses. I will take what the honourable member is 1be Manitoba Nurses' Union, at the last minute, saying as a good suggestion for the meeting that unfortunately, let me know that they were not we are arranging with the various agencies she coming.I pleaded with Vera Cberneckithat if she referredto. could not come, would sheplease sendsomeone in Ms.B81Tett: Mr. Speaker, will theminister, when her place,and the answ er was no. this group meets, also ensure that the group investigates the possibility of instituting mobile Department of Health crisisteams so that rapevictims andother victims Untendered Contracts of abuse,assault and neglect have accessto trained Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): My question is medical and social services personnel wherever for theMinister of Health. they live in Manitoba, even ifthey do not have In information we have received on untendered immediate accessto a hospital? contracts, Dr. Moe Lerner has been given a Mr. McCrae: Mr. Speaker, I do not understand contract for $105,000to, andI quote,participate in what the mobile crisis team to which the health reform activities which require medical honourable member refers would look like. I inputfor emergency-specificmatters . would be interestedin hearingfrom further heras I amwondering if the MinisterHealth of cantell to bow such teams should be puttogether and so us, why is it necessaryto contract out for $105,000 on. for consultation on medical matters relating to We do have various services available now, but emergency, andwhat is the length of thiscontract mobile crisisin teams this areanot are somethingI thatis costing $105,000? June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4017

Hon. James McCrae (Minister of Health): Mr. Mr. McCrae: I will take that question as notice Speaker, it is quite a proj ect when you are, asthe and give the honourable member the detailed honourablemembers know from previous history, answer. keeping health functions, thewhole health system • (1420) operating year in and year out. It is a very big undertaking. Add to that a move right across this Child Poverty country to alter and change andrenew our health Impact on Dropout Rate care system, which adds quite a lot to the whole Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, effort, asthe honourable memberwould realize.In we have been calling on this government to that process, it is necessary for us to have the addressthe high rate of childpoverty in Manitoba expertise of thelikes of Dr. Lernerwith respect to for quite some time. We have the highest rate in emergencyissues andothers, aswell. Canadaal at most27 percentWe all,I think,would I willget thedetails of thecontract itself for the agreethat thisis unacce ptable. honourable member as to the time period that it Youth service workers in the community are covers, but certainly, Dr. Lernerhas worked with talking about research that shows a direct us, and his background is such that it lends itself relationship between child poverty and dropout well to the issues we arefaced with these days. rates from school,the relationship obviously being Ms. Gray: Of the some 85-plus committees that that childrenin poverty aremore likely to drop out the Minister of Health has looking at health of school. The government is aware of this reform,there very are manyphysicians who sit on research, yet they have eliminated ACCESS those committeeswho do it on a voluntary basis, programs and CareerStart programs, or New so that was the reason for my question. I look Careersprogram s, I shouldsa y. forwatdto the answer. Mr.Spea ker: Question,please. Can the Minister of Health tell us why his Ms. Cerilli: I want to ask the Minister of department is spending some $10,000 given to Education,why arethere no programsin Manitoba Ernst & Young to provide ttaining sessions for particularly to deal with 16- to 18-year-olds who ManitobaHealth staffthat willlook athistory and are more likely to drop out of school ifthey are CUITent status of fundingreform across Canada? I living belowthe povertyline? askthat question because youspent over a million dollars onyour planningaudit and secretariat and Hon. Clayton Manness (Ministerof Education y�m Executive Support, so why dowe have to go and Training):Mr. Speaker, we, as a society, outside- makean incredible contribution to allthose in the public school system. For the member to suggest Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable that we do nothave in placeprograms that try to memberhas puther qu estion. reach out to thosewho dropout along the way I think is grossly. unfair Mr. McCrae: I willreport back to thehonourable member. I will take the specifics of the question, I see theefforts thatsome school divisions-and ascertainresponse the and give it to the honourable I think ofFort the Garry School Division. I thinkof member. some otherswho have programsin placeto try and reach toout those, for whatever reason, in many Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, with a final cases voluntarily leave the public school system. supplementary to the minister, can the minister Themember's thesis is wrong in my point of view. indicate to us, whenuntendered contracts are given out through the Department of Health, does the Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I have a problem with minister have access to the information on every theway theminister is dismissingthis issue. There particular contract, and does he approve those are research studies that show-we are talking before theyare actuall y accepted? aboutpoverty in relation to highschool and school 4018 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

dropout rates. I urge the minister to take it Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable seriously. member has put her question. These multipart questionstake up anawful lot of time. Mr. Speaker: Question,please . Mr. Manness:Mr. Speaker, yes, we aretrying to Ms. Cerilli:I will askMinister the of Educationor determine the statistical base and trying to draw, the Ministerof Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson) with greater confidence, conclusions with respect if there anyhas been reseaiChby this government to thenumbers . Thereis no doubt Statistics Canada on the number of students on student social is reporting. Theirreport was in some respects 30 allowance and those students dropping out of percent. That isrejected by many of those within school andwhat the reasons might � the educational community. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Mr. Speaker, it iswhat MinisteiS of Educationin memberhas put herquestion. Canadahave beendoing . Theyare now mandated, course, Mr. Manness:Mr. Speaker, thereis afair amount of the statistical group under the CMEC of research.I do not thinkit isterribly conclusi ve, organization, to try and come up with better because there isresearch in otherjurisdictions that statistics. show where socioeconomic factorsinto aretaken This is not a Manitoba phenomenon, Mr. account, thatthe public school system wodts well. Speaker. Everybody understands and we have a The greatest emphasis, of course, depends on reality where many of today's dropouts are not whether or not there loveis a of learning instilled using as a reason any socioeconomic factors. withinthe homesetting andwhether or not that is Many feel they are not being fully challenged brought with the student to the public school within the public school system and are coming system, which is fully byfunded the taxpayers of from a wide-section cross of backgrounds and are thisprovince . Thereis not aprogram, thereis not a dropping out for thosereasons. law that can be passedto instilllove the ofleaming So the issue is ever so much greater than as and indeed thewithin supportnecessary the home . portrayed theby member for Radisson. The members opposite, when they were in Bon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I government, and when we arein government, we would liketo table a document becausethe Leader have devotedmillions of dollarsto try provideand of theLiberal Party(Mr. Edwards)has denied that remedial programs in support of that type of he was advocating that governments guarantee a individual, taking into account, in some cases, bond issue. poverty or in others,socioeconomic factoiS. It is a communique that is headed, Axworthy andEdwards propose Comm unity-BasedInitiative Mr. Speaker, society is doing all it can in this regard. To Build New Arena to Keep Jets in Winnipeg, andthe quote is:"Axworthy andEdwards propose Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I would suggest that the creation of a community bond program, that poorchildren come from poorfamilies- would sell Winnipeg Arena Bonds. Original investments should be guaranteed by the federal Mr.Speaker: Order,please. This is not a fortime debate. The honourable member for Radisson, andprovincial governments, ...." withyour question. Time isextremely scarce. Some HonourableMember s: Oh, oh. Ms.Cerilli: I would askthe ministerif he would Mr. Speaker:Onler, pl ease.The honourable First consider doing two things, No. 1, begin to keep Ministerhas tabled the document. statistics ondropout rates Manitoba, in andNo. 2, a study in Manitoba to see why youngpeople are Point ofOrder dropping out of school in Manitoba andif, in fact, Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second there isa higherrelationship- Opposition): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, I June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4019

am very happy the minister tabled the fu ll Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has document, and I hope members will take the expired. opportunity to read thefull document . Mr. Speaker, the First Ministershould talk to the NONPO�CALSTATEMENTS Finance ministerabout the revenues- Miami CollegiateGraduates Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member clearly does havenot a pointof older. Mr. Speaker: Doesthe honourable First Minister have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] Provincial Magistrates Deployment Ron. GaryFilmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to rise in the House today to Mr. Gord Mackintosh (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, congratulate a fine group of young people who my questionis to theMinister Justice. of graduated last evening from Miami Collegiate. I Nextweek, Manitobans will shortbe a quarterof hadthe pleasure of meetingall these young people, the full-timejudges to be on theprovincial court, 18 in number, and I might tell you that I was and the Minister of Justice has stated that as the personally overwhelmed by the quality of these govemmem nears ofthe end its mandate, that she people and their tremendous enthusiasm and wants to refresh the bench. Mr. Speaker, commitmentto the future. Manitobans have a woldfor that The graduating class of 18 bad 10 of the My question to the minister is, given that five graduates receive honour certificates as part of legally trained magistrates were hired by this their graduation. There were 51 scholarships, government back in 1991to hear liquor control prizesawards and thatwere awarded to this small offences,highway trafficoff ences, some Criminal class of 18. It was one of the most impressive Code offences and by-law issues instead of more groups of young people that I have had the costlyjudges andgiven that the governmentbroke pleasure of meeting within a long,long time,and I its promise to use those magistrates asamounced, certainly think that our nationprovince andour willshe now deploythem asthey should beso we have a very secure future withpeople suchas this canhave aneffective justice system? graduating from highsch ool. Ron. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Justice I might,in particular, liketo recognizejust a few and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, the of the graduates for the awards thatthey received. member, I think, should know, I believe we do Oneindividu al,David Orcbaid,was the Governor­ have an effective justice system. As the member General's medalist, and I see members opposite knows also, it is the responsibility of the chief grinning, andsay Iwill that David Orchatdis the judge to assignjudges tocourts. The chief judge, I son of Gotdon Orchatd, who is a member of the believe, willdo thatjob. We also knowthat there Manitoba Round Table on Environment and will be, as isthere now, a pool of part-timejudges Economy,and the president of the Deerwood soil available. andconservation proje ct inManitoba. David is not only theGovernor -General'smedalist, but hewon I have also made the commitment, and the numerous awards aswell. I ampleased tosay that member knows, that the judicial committees for he is entering the Faculty of Engineering at the the threejudicial vacancies which arent curre are University of Manitoba this fall. David was also well on their way. They are inprogress. The the class valedictorian,I might say. member knows that they are in progress. So he deliberately appears tonot notice all of the steps Sheri-Lynn Duncan received, I believe, seven that have been taken to ensure that our courts or eight awards and willentering be the Faculty of continue to functionin aneffective way. PhysicalEducation at theUnive rsity of Manitoba. 4020 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Arlene Orchard, who does happen to be closely Fnergy andMines (Mr. Orchard). Our veryhearty related to a member of this Legislature, received congratulations to her andto all of the others who seven awards, including a full scholarship to were so successful. Jamestown College to major in education with a major indrama and music. Thisalso gives me anopportunity, Mr. Speaker, to add then in thisperiod when our high schools I believe all of these young people ought to be are having graduations for so many of our young congratulated on theirtremendous achievements people in this province, it isindeed a time I think that they received. that allof us canhave faith in the future. Mr. Speaker: Does thehonourable Leader of the I have been to graduations of schools in thearea official opposition have leave to make a that I represent. I know other members will have nonpolitical statement? [agreed]. done thesame in thisperiod of time.I thinkwhat I Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I always find,what and I have found again thisyear want to join the Premier in congratulating the 18 is that despite a lot of the bad news about young graduates from the Miami Collegiate and the people who are having a difficult time fitting into number of awards that they were granted and society,we see continuously anenormous wealth bestowedlast evening. Fifty-onescholarships for a of talent, knowledge, goodwill commitmentand to group of young people of that size is truly the community which is coming forward in our remarkable, andthey are to be truly commended young people. We are seeing that again, and by this Legislature. indeed the students in Miami typify that for us today. I also want to congratulate the gold medalist, David Orchard, and wish himwell in his chosen I wantto extendthat congratulations to allof our educational path in the future, and Sheri-Lynn graduatingstudents in thisprovince and themwish Duncan and her career choice in physical well in their future pursuits. Thankyou, Mr. education. I believe I have met Arlene Orchardin Speaker. thepast, and wantI to congratulateher on hergreat • (1430) achievement-seven awards istruly remarkable­ and congratulate her on the full scholarship that TurnOft' TV Week shehas been awarded in her chosen pro fession. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Congratulations to the total group of students Radisson have leave to make a nonpolitical and allof theaward recipients . statement? [agreed] Mr. Speaker: Does thehonourable Leaderof the Ms.Marianne Ce rilli(R adisson): Mr.Speaker, I Second Opposition have leave to make a want to recognize a program at Joseph Teres nonpolitical statement? [agreed] School,a schoolin my constituency,in recognition Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second ofYear oftheFamily. Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I want to join The week of June 13 was Tum OffTV Week. comments with the Premier (Mr. Fd mon) andthe This is awhere week allthe students in theschool Leader of thetion Opposi in congratulating these participated in planning activities with their last Miami students who were honoured night in families that they would do instead of watching and whocome fromthat part of our province. TV. It was a very successful week. The students Theirachievements asrecounted by the Premier have all written reports submitted to the school are outstanding indeed, given the number of detailing all the fun, educational, interesting students and the number of awards which were activities thatthey did with their families instead given, and, in particular, to the two individuals of watchingTV. I have hadsome reports of those whichthe MinisterFirst spoke of, onewhich is,of activities, and lookI fo rward gettingto some of the course, Iassume the daughter of the Minister of letters that aregoing to be sent to me. June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSE:MBLY OF MANITOBA 4021

I thinkexemplifies this the kind of initiative of Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Year of the Family. I want to recognize the Housing. parent-teacher council at the school for all the COMMITfEE OF SUPPLY good work that they do. They have a number of (CODCUITelltSections) volunteers active in the school, and they run a number of very creative, innovative and LABOUR wonderfully educational programs for the Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel community. Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply Thankyou verymuch, Mr. Speaker. please come to order. This section of the Committee of Supply will be considering the ORDERS OF THEDAY Estimates of the Departmentof Labour. Doesthe honourable Minister Labour of have an House Business openingstatement? Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): Bon. Darren Praznik (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I have several announcements of Yes, Mr. Deputy Chabperson. First of all, this House business. departmentis relatively small in sizecompared to Firstly, the Standing Committee on Law many others inthe government, but it provides a Amendments willmeet on Tuesday, June28, from wide range of services in administering a large 9 a.m. to 12 noon to consider Bills3, 5, 11, 12, 14, numberof laws andregulations of theprovince . 15 and26. For 1994-95, thedepartment is requesting a total Thecommittee will also meetagain later that of $16,759,000, which is a reduction of 4 percent day atseven o'clockp.m. to considerany billsnot fromthe previous year.The department recoversa dealt with in themorning plus Bills2, 4, 18, 19 and significant proportion of its expendituresthrough 21. various sourcesrevenue. of Thisyear itexpects to recover about 67 percent of its total budget as Secondly,the Standing Commit teeon Economic revenue to the provincialTreasury. Development willalso meet on Tuesday, June 28, Instaffin g, thedepartment 's allocationhas been from nineo'cl ockto 12 noonto considerBills 7, 8, reducedby 7.26 staffyears, butthere have been no 9, 10, 13 and23. layoffswithin the department. Part ofthe reduction Mr. Speaker, that concludes the House reflects savings from combining the executive announcements for themoment. offices of Labour and Northern Affairs, other savings from integration of Pay Equity function I, therefore, move, seconded by theMinister of into Conciliation and Mediation Services branch. Family Services (Mrs. Mitchelson), that Mr. Reductions achieved through vacancy Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House management, showing the department's resolve itself into a committee to consider the continuing successat avoiding stafflayoffs, have, Supply to be granted to Her Majesty, having I think, provensu ccessful. Housing in the Chamber and Labour in the committee room. Theorganizational structurecontinues to evolve as we pursue our continuous improvement • (1440) activities. This spring, for example, senior Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself management restructuring flattened the into a committee to consider of the lySupp to be organizations' reportingthe to deputy minister to granted to Her Majesty with the honourable an assistant deputy minister for Labour Services member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laureodeau) in the and executive directors for Employment Chair for the Department of Labour; and the Standards, Workplace Safety and Health, and honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Management Services.This is expectedto helpthe 4022 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

departments look for ways to serve Manitobans discussion and all provinces have participated in more efficiently and effectively. thisprocess .

I would like to also express appreciation to all The department continues to expand its use of the employees of the department for their technology to improve customer-client services. commitment to excellence andgood service over Efforts have been made to linkmany of our staff, thepast year. I would also like to acknowledge the including the executive offices internally and significant contributiom made bymembers of the ultimately extemally to the global information department's external advisory committees. These highway. Such enhancement to our technology people have contributed their valuable time and infrastructureresulted bas in improvements to our efforts to providing advice andassistance to ensure decision-making process, better and faster that our legislationpolicies and meet the needsof information for our staff, and as well as the Manitobans. potential tointeract in thefuture with our external clients. This puts the emphasis where it must be, In support of labour management co-operation which is on client service, not on unnecessary andrelationship building, theLabour Management paperflow. Review Committee cohosted a Labour Business forum with the Economic Innovation and With respect to the Office of the Fire Technology Council. More than 60 prominent Commissioner, which is an integral part of the Manitoba business andlabour leaders participated Department of Labour, construction on expansion in the forum which provided an opportunity for of the Manitoba Emergency Services Training face-to-face dialogue among Manitoba's labour Centre in Brandon is presently underway and marlretpartners. expected to be completed next fall. This givewill the centre an additional 18,000 'Square feet of Earlier this year, the Canadian Labour Marlret space, which will considerably enhance and Productivity Centre submitted a report on a emergency services trainingfor ourprovince and studyof theappro priate roles govemnent canplay allow us to sell these services outside of our to facilitate effective labour-business relations. province and make Manitoba a centre for The study was commissioned by Ministers of emergency services training in the central part of Labour across Canada. The report contains a NorthAmerica. number of recommendatiom that will serve as a useful guide in our efforts to foster positive The centre bas just completed an accreditation labour-businessrelationships . audiL Results, which I understand are now final, are favourable for our centre receiving the The membership of the MinimumWage Board International Fire Service Accreditation Congress is ntlycurre under review, and the board will be certification of ourtraining pro grams. convened shortly once all of the membership bas beenfinalized. Since the new training initiatives will be on a cost-recovery basis, potentially the centre will be As part of NAFTA developments, this able to have, as I have mentioned earlier, a big department, along with its counterparts in other impact on theBrandon area. provinces, participated in the federal-provincial consultation process on the North American The $2.5-million expansion could lead to Agreement on Labour Co-operation. Mr.Jim additionaljobs throughservices for students taking Nykoluk from our department, in fact, was even courses atthe centre. part of the Canadian delegation to W asbington, The Office of the Fire Commissioner will and from reports,all played a very significantrole purchase a fifth high-volume emergency response in Canada'spart in those negotiatiom. trailer this fiscal year to serve our mutual aid An·in tergovernmental agreement to implement districts and be available for forest fire service the labour side agreement is presently under under the Department of Natural Resources. This June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4023

particulartrailer will be strategicallylocated in the The success rate for a mediated settlement has province, along with the others, where they are beenmore than80 percent. needed. Availability of these units is criticalduring the forest fireseason. In the area of Workplace Safety and Health, this branch in the past yearhas begun threeinitiatives Recently the Canadian Tire child protection to reduce workplace injuries and illnesses. foundation hasprovided national sponsorship for the Learn Not to Bum program, which was One was working with the Workers implemented in Manitoba by the Fire Compensation Board to findways to obtain more Commissioner's office 1991.in commitment fromemployers andsenior cotpOrate management concerning the need for • (1450) workplace-specific occupational health andsafety This hasmade it possible to have the Level I programs. program materials available in schools across A protocol on how to resolve indoor airquality Canada, and they are now being translated into problems has also been developed jointly by French. Manitoba and Alberta and is now available from 1be Conciliation and Mediation branch of the thebranch. department, in 1993-94, was successful in Individual industry occupational health and resolving 82 percent of the grievance mediation safety guidelines are being developed in cases that came before it, and 96 percent of co-operation with thefing, roo auto recycling and conciliationcases without work stoppages. shingling industries.

The branch's record in resolving grievance 1be branch's client services desk project has mediation cases continues to facilitate good been so successful that it has now become a relations between labour and management permanent service offeredby thedepartment. generally in our province as well as generating substantial savings in arbitration costs. Last year, 3,282 inquiries, approximately 12 a day, were answered on a wide variety of With respect to pensions and the Pension occupationalhealth and safety issues. We arequite Commission, saw the efforts of this 1993-94 proud of that particular initiative. branch focused on smooth implementation of regulatory changes that cameinto effect in 1993. In the area of the Employment Standards division of the branch, this division is continuing Special attention to introduction of Life Income to promote a wide variety of public education Funds, the LIPs, and Locked-In Retirement initiatives. Accounts, the LIRAs, is underway. To the endof May. the Pension Commission has approved 73 The multiculturalism initiative has added financialinstitutions for offeringLIRAs and 20for community liaison this year withpeople from the offering LIFs . Italian and Sikh communities. Public education materials have been translated into these 1beco mmission hascompleted work on aseries languages. of public educational materials designed to help average pension plan members better understand 1be division is implementing and developing the role of the commission and their rights and initiatives to improve client services in a nmnber obligations underThe Pension Benefits Act. of otherways.

The Manitoba Labour Board has fully A cross-training initiative with rural staff in implemented its mediation initiative, which gives Employment Standards, Worker Advisor and parties to a dispute the opportunity to mediate the Labour Adjustment functions is now underway to dispute before thead judication process. ensure that a complete range of services can be 4024 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

moreeffectively given oroffered to our clients in enough time,in fact, to deal with the Department everyrural office. of Labour. So we willhave to beselective . Testing andthe taking of employment standards I want to say from the beginning that our claims over thephone to enhance accessibility of disappointments with the Department of Labour, services wasalso an initiative of this particular particularlythe labourpolicy of thisgovernment as branch it is reflected in this department, continue. The The Labour Adjustment unit within the labour relationsclimate which thisgovernment has department hasbeen very active in handling rural created, I think, by its ending of final offer northern adjustments through community-based selectionlegislation, by itsoverriding of thousands initiatives,which better use existing municipal and of individual and collective contracts in the localstructures. province of Manitoba as a result of Bill 22, its continual delays in the calling of a Minimum Thisparticular unit is developing aninitiative to Wage Board in Manitoba, the delays in The significantly expand services in order to better ConstructionWages Act thathave beenthere over serve smallerrural wOikplaces. the last few years,and I think:in some elements of Considering whatassistance they maybe able to Workplace Safety and Health, all give an offerin smaller layoffs where establishinga labour impression to manypeople outsidethis Legislature management committee may not always be of a government which isintent on ananti-labour feasible is anotherparticular problem areathat the agenda. unit isaddressing. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister makes The Wo:dter Advisor Office, which provides a much of hisequal treatment of labour issues, and very important function to claimants of the yet it seems to me that there is a far from equal Workers Compensation Board, continues to treatment of labour issues in thisprovi nce. Thisis pursue co-operation with the Workers a ministerwho, on theone hand,is well known for Compensation Boardto provide andfund more a his looking after hisown backyard very carefully, comprehensive range of services to injured rushing out to deal with the sugar plant and the workers and meet their needs better while they rural producers who were represented in that take theirclaims through the redress system. The dispute, aswell asthe pulpand paper issue andthe office is more active in developing resource nuclearenergy plant in hisconstituency. So great materials and co-ordinatinginitiatives of external interestgreat and speed in dealing with thosekinds advocacy groups to better focus issues and of issues,but not the same kind of speed, andin concerns. factclear a lack of interest from theperspective of That is my opening statement, Mr. Deputy people bothinside and outside this Legislature, in Chairperson.I amsure we willhave an opportunity dealing with very long-standing strikes in to get into a lot more detail on these various Manitoba, at Trailmobile, atNorthern Blower and subjects aswe pursuethese Estimates. Thank: you. atBuilding Products. Mr.Deputy Chairperso n: We thankMinister the The minister's interest in that seems to have of Labour(Mr. Praznik) for thosecomments. Does beenlimited to pickingup thephone oncea month the official opposition critic, the honourable or having a part-time employee pick upthe phone member forWolsele y, have anopening statement? once a month Not nearly the samekind of energy Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Yes, Mr. Deputy has been given to addressing what are very, very Chairperson. We do have an opening statement, serious situations for people who have been on the but I think: it morewill be of a list of some of the picket line and out of work for many, many itemsthat we want to discusssince at thisstage in months, in factseveral years, in some cases. One the Estimates we do not have a long time, or would like to see a Minister of Labour who June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4025

showed some concernfo r those workers whowere minister's position is on that in this particular on that picket line. province. In fact, moreover, not only is it an unequal So with that, Mr. Deputy Chaiiperson, we will treatment of different labour disputes across this move I hope quite quickly to looking at each province, but it is also an unequal treatment of section of thedepartment. labour and management in some of those areas. I Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Thank you. Does the have brought to the minister's attention the areas critic from the second opposition party, the where, infact, the balance is beingtipped in favour honourablemember for Osborne, have anopening of management with the granting of Workforce statement? 2000 grants to two out of the three plants where Ms. Norma McCormick (Osborne): Yes, Mr. there arecontinuing strikes. That does not seemto Deputy Chaiiperson, I would like to make a brief me to contribute to stable labourrelations , nor does openingstatement with respect to the thatareas I it contribute to the equal-handed, even-handed will be concentrating on. I am going to be asking treatmentwhich thisminister is so anxious to brag some questions specifically to determine about on every possible occasion. unifonnity. There is an increasing concern that When you give training grants to replacement there is inconsistent implementation and workers-! am convinced, in fact, that some of enforcement of acts and codes and that some of those grants were used to train replacement them arein factin conflict. workers. I have seen no evidence from this I amalso concernedabout the updating of many government,in spite of thefact thatI have asked of these acts and regulations with respect to the for it many times,of thejob classificationsof those accommodation of new information and people who have been trained. The government technological advancement. I am going to be simply gives me assumptions about who has been raising some issues around responsibilities as trained. I would like to seethe job classifications, assignedand acts and regulations with respect to that there certainly has been some training of responsibilities of owners, contractors and those replacement workers. Not only is that unequal havingjurisdictional authority. treatment.Mr. Deputy Chairperson. but I thinkit is I have some questions with respect to the a practice which this government should cease penalties andenf orcement, the deterrent costs for immediately. noncompliance which are in acts andregulations Secondly. it also seems to me that if those which do not appearto be ingkeep up with time. I Workforce 2000grants have not been forused the also have some concerns with respect to replacement workers, they have been used in fact qualificationof peoplewho are at thispoint in time to benefit themanagement of plants who in the inspecting and enforcing many of the acts and minister's own words arenot interestedin coming regulationswithin thismandate minister's . to the bargaining table. That again does not seem • (1500) to me to be equal-handed treatment of labour (Mr.Jack Reimer, Acting Deputy Chairperson, relationsthis in province. in theClair) I would like to also deal with issues of the I am going to be raising some questions with Labour Board. We have some issuesdealing with respect to the issue of revenue recovery whichthe inspection and with conciliation and mediation. I ministeralluded to in hisopening statement I have have some issues, if we have the time for it, questions aroundapprenticeship initiatives, again, looking to the future, particularly dealing with the Minimum Wage Board. and anything thatwe part-time workers and the issue of homework might anticipate fromthisgovernment in the area which is certainlyconcerning people in otherparts of adj ustments to minimum wage. I am interested of Canada, and I would like to know what the in pursuing specifically within the Workplace 4026 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Safety and Health division the status of several achieve any success inbringing those three strikes regulations which currently have gone from its to a close. advisory council before the minister and the status Mr. Pramik: I amgoing to askMr. Davage , who of these is currently uncertain. is the director of the Conciliation & Mediation I aminterested in pursuing the impact of the pay branch, to join us for some specifics. I believe the report on this particular department to determine three disputes that the member is talking about is the extent to which theprinciples that were laid out Trailmobile, Building Products-! look to the some threeor four years ago have in fact taken in member for Wolseley-and NorthernBlower. the Department of Labour which in my opinion First ofall, I want to say to the member that we should be the flagship in terms of redressing some may have a little bit different approach to labour historical imbal . ances disputes, I do not thinka great difference, but we So those are primarily the areas I will be may have a subtle difference. 1be member said, p�g in thisEstimates debate. why have we not been able to resolve these disputes? I approach these things-! think it is The ActingDeputy Chairperson (Mr. Reimer): very important to have a fundamental principle Thankyou very muchfor those opening comments that these are adults who come to disputes. They by the member forOsborne (Ms.McC onnick). have a responsibility. Our job is to facilitate, to

Under Manitoba practice, debate of the work with them , to attempt to push them together Minister's Salary is traditionally the last item to settle their issues. considered for the Estimates of a department. Wherever we have done that, in fact in the vast Accordingly, we shall defer consideration of this majority of cases, whether it be with just the help item and now proceed with consideration of the of a mediation, with a conciliation officer, whether next line. it be amediator aswe have hadto appoint, whether Item l.(b ), page 117. At thistime, we invite the it is in the caseof Manitoba Sugarwhere we have minister's staffto join us at the table andwe ask had to bring the parties in here as both face the that the minister introduce them once they are precipice and were falling over, it has generally seated. worked.

Mr. Pramik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chaiiperson,-it In the three particular disputes that the member is my pleasure to introduce to the committee my refers to, there has been a great deal of effort by deputy minister, Mr. Tom Farrell; as well as Mr. this department, and it has not been just a phone Jim Nykoluk, who is at the end of the table who is call by myself or a part-time staff, I believe the

one of our executive directors from Management member referred to, in attempting to settle them. Services; as well as Mr. Jim Wood, who is the 1bere has been a lot of effort. In some of these financial officer of thedepartment. Aswe proceed disputes, I have been contacted by people on both through the Estimatesbook, we will be bringing in sides or on one side. We have haddiscussions. But other staffwho I will introduce. what has been missing in each three is the necessary willingness,quite frankly, on the part of Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I both sides to bring it to a conclusion. I look to Mr. wantedto asksome generalpolicy questions at the Davage to correct me or flag where I may be beginning. They may not specifically refer to wrongin some of my details. Management Services Division, but at least we will not repeatthem inother areas. wanted I to start Inthe caseof Building Products, that particular with the three continuing strikes thatI mentioned dispute, we hadconciliation, we had mediation, we in Manitoba andto askthe ministerwhat the state had discussions with both parties, and quite of proceedings is on each one, how often each of frankly, andI say thiswith no hesitation today, that the two sides is being contacted, why the minister there was not in my opinion a suffi cient has over two to three years now been unable to willingness on both sides to bring that strike to a June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 4027

conclusion. Of course, everyone will say theywere Criminal Code. The union feels strongly enough willing, but when it came to make the moves that that they must go back that theyhave not been able were necessary, they were not there. to achieve a back-to-work agreement

I say to themember for Wolseley (Ms.Friesen), I am not going to comment on who is right or when that strike fust occurred, Ibadavisit even wrong. Each shares their opinion, butI do say this from the shop stewardof theday who came to see to thosewho have been convictedof breaching the me, who broughtto my attention from hispoint of CriminalCode. When you do break the laws of the view, did not even know why in fact they wereon country or the province, you then should not be strike. There were other issues of course on the looking for otherlaws to be invoked to save you managementsid e. I amnot trying sayto one side is from theconsequence of thataction. right orwrong. Quite frankly, everybody has to live with that In these things, both sides tend to blame, but situation. Theissues of thestrike were resolved, a there were a lot of problems on both sides and at fundamental difference in the back to work and theend of the day, andit continues to thistime. I those people have to live with that. They made do not believe,after spendingfair a bit of effort on choices. Ifthey canresolve it, ifthey can reach an it with ,staff that there trulywas a willingness on agreement between the union andcompany, fine, both sides to resolve it. Quite frankly, what has but they have to live with the consequences of happenedtoday is I do not thinkthere is the ofkind those actions. I do not thinkthere is anythingthat pressure to bring this thing to resolve because thisdepartment can do, short of legislation, which eventshave gonebeyond it Thatis regrettable but it would not bemy intentionto recommend to the that happens because of decisions that people cabinet, that wouldresolve it. make. The third issue, NorthernBlower, is perhaps I In the case of Trailmobile, without letting too thinkthe saddest of thegroup, because havethere I much out of thebag, if I amnot mistaken,I believe badpersonal representation made by many of the that there was a resolution achieved as to the employees who were on the line, approached me at outstanding issues in the strike but the problem a public meeting, had meetings and discussions wasthe back-to-work agreement. It boilsdown to with them. Wespent a greatdeal of time througha a very fundamental issue, and I am not going to variety of channelsin tryingto findout a meansin comment whetherit is right or wrong, butit is, I which we could getthe parties back to work.There thinkto anyone whoexamines it, a verylegi timate is a history here that goes back to another labour issue in whichthere would begrievance. agreement in which concessions were made and promiseswere made as partof thatconcession and During the course of that strike, there was a thenwere notlived up to on the partof one side, particularevent whereI believe therewere charges which I thinkunfair was to those whowork there laid in which criminal acts took place. The but that in fact happened, and it created a very, question there is whether or not the people very bad situation. involved in those criminal acts,who have broken the CriminalCode of Canadaor arecharged-I do From thework that we have done in trying to know if convictions have flowed from resolve this particular issue, I have come to the it--convictions have flowed, so they have been conclusion that on one particular side there was convicted of breakingthe Code-shouldCriminal just absolutely no willingness to resolve this. I be taken back, and that is a fundamental issue of thinkthere were some health issues involvedand a difference between the union involved and the hostof things that madecult. itverydiffi company. • (1510)

The company does not want those employees Of the threehere, this is onewhere I feelit was back who have been convicted of breaking the the toughestone in essence because of some very 4028 LEGISLA11VE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

regrettable situations,and I gather thatwas shared I have no evidence to indicate that thepeople at by many onthe labour side as well, that it was an Northern Blower in fact are saying anything unresolvable situation. differently. The timelast we met, over a year ago, the ministerwas talking about thehealth problems We also received information, and I have no of the employer's side incoming to thebargaining problems sharing this with you publicly here table, now arewe stillat exactly the sameposition? today, because I thinkthese issues arenow in the What hasgone on? Where is theevidence? Where public realm-this was coming from the labour are the documents and will the minister provide side-thattheir sense wasthe company was not all them? that strong economically andmay not survive, so that changes the scenario aswell for resolvingthe Mr. Praznik: No, Mr. Acting Deputy particularissues . Chairperson. I say to the member for Wolseley, she hasnever had the opportunity to be Minister of I appreciate thepublic concern, andI appreciate Labour; shesome may day. A lot of what goeson the comment of the member for Wolseley (Ms. withinthis department is not something in whichI Friesen). It may often look like we arenot doing a can table you letters and correspondence and lot of things but given the nature of labour reports. A lot of the work that goes on are relations, it is important that many things go on telephone conversations, it is private behindscenes the that arein never thepublic realm conversations, it is workthrough other parties. until after theday . I can assurethe member that in Quite frankly,do I not keep a listof allof that.I do all three cases a great deal of effort wasput in by not have enough time in theday to documentevery myself, my staff and by other people that we phone call or every conversation I had, nor if did,I solicited voluntarily to find avenues to resolve would I provide all of that to this committee these. In each case, due to the particular becausemany of those contacts, theconfidentiality circumstancesthose of disputes,they were not able of them, are important to the work that has gone to be resolved to date, and they may never be on. resolved. Now, themember also said something that isnot Ms.Friesen: Well, will ministerthe then provide correct, and I would assume it is a slip. She said evidence of what he has done? He said things go that it hasboiled down to a phone call a day from on behind the scenes. Now they can be in the the minister or implied that-or a month. It is not public domain. the case. What Ihave always said publicly is the conciliation officerin thisparticular dispute, who It is my understanding thatin both the casesof is Mr. Davage, who is sitting right here today, Northern Blower and Building Products that this contacts each partyevery monthto see if there is has amounted to one phone call a month. Now if anymovement, butevery party is saying, yes, I am the minister has evidence of any other action, I willto go back to thetable . Ifthere is not sufficient think the public would like to know about it. movement or a willingnessin terms of the detail of Certainly, it would be useful evidence to know what they express to Mr. Davage, it is a pointless what in factis not succeeding. Whyis there failure exercise. Anyone who has been involved in this here? kindof negotiation frommiddle the point of view Theminister, for example, says thatthe Building knowsthat. So thereto has be atme willingness to Products strike that neither party is prepared to move. come to the bargainingtable andthat is simply not I also want to say some comments about the informationthat have I . I understandthat every BuildingProducts fora moment Letus remember month the call is made from the department that how Building Products started. There was a the Building Productsworkers insist veryclearly disputeat Supercrete.A votetook place amongthe thatthey are ready to returnto thebargaining table. 25 or 30 unionized employees at Building June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4029

Products. Allegations were made by the shop So there were very serious things that went on steward and others that there was intimidation that so souredthe relationships betweenthe parties involved in that vote. I am not going to get into that, quite frankly, I think made the thing whether or not that is true or not, but thefact is the unresolvable. But again, people take courses of vote was conducted. theywent out in support. action,they create a setof circumstances, andthey ultimately have to live with them. Relationships between the parties at the table, quite frankly, becameso bad and so deep that in Ms.Friesen : Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson,but my opinion they became unresolvable. An by ending final offer selection, of course, this action-the world moved on, quite frankly, and government made a choice. It took a course of they areto thepoint now whereBuilding Products action which made thisparticular strike much less feelsvery comfortable thatit can function without easily resolvedthan it would otherwisehave been. settling this dispute and so they continue. The That applies to the twoother strikes as well. So for pressure isno longer there. That is not my fault, the minister to throw up his handssay, and this is thatis not the memberfor Wolseley's fault, thatis unresolvable, people makechoices , lifegoes on- I what happens. Life goes on and the number of findvery unpleasant.Life doesnot go on for those many, many of the people who were employed people on thepicket line. there crossed the picket line and went back to The minister has many oppoi1Unities andmany worlc, for whatever reason, good orbad, but they have. visible opportunities tobring parties together,just as hedid at Pine Falls,just as he donehas for the Althoughthere is stilla dispute thatot cann even people at the sugarfactory. That kind of visible be taken offthe books,I put it down to a whole proactive action on thepart of theminister has not host of factors. The bottom line being is that the occurredin eitherNorthern Blower or in Building two principals at the table who were in charge of Products. I have asked the minister for evidence those negotiations-and, by the way, I have met that it has. He claims that it has. I amprepared to with bothof them personally, and this assessment believehim , but I would liketo seesome evidence. comes after a lot of discussions, and believeI it is I am asked to accept agreat deal on faith from a not just mine but sharedby others-is just so bad government which hasFOS ended andwhich has that neither one would be prepared to make the beenproviding public assistance to both of these necessarymoves to a middle groundresolve to the companies in theform of World'on:e 2000 grants. thing. So it doesseem to me that doesit require, from the It became an issue of pride of a host of other public perspective, some evidence of the external issues becoming involved. each of their government's activity in both of these areas, to relationships to their organizations they are ensurethat the Department of Labourin fact does involved in, their companies, in rol� and other maintain its equitable treatment of both company things,taking a placein thisthing. Callit whatever andworlrer. you will. It became so bad that it could not be It seems me,to Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, settled. ifmo nthly phonecalls areby made officialsof this Letus alsoremember that in the earlypart ofthat department, thatrecords should be kept, and I am strike, there was a host of activity going on, sure theyare kept. So it would bepemaps, useful, includingthe destruction of concrete,the lead balls for theminister to have a lookat those and to table through people's windows. There were charges those. It is my understanding, from those phone

laid. Infact , even a memberof thisLegislature, in calls, thatthe workers are very clearthat they are his role-and an opposition member of this preparedto come backto thebargaining table . The Legislature, in theemployment that he also hadat ministercontinues to assumeboth that parties are that particular time, had a bullet through the atfa ult in thiscase. H that is the case, then let the window of hisoffice andthrough his chair. ministerput theevidence on thetable . 4030 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Mr. Praznik: First of all, Mr. Acting Deputy labour movement would never want that. They Chairperson, there is a big difference between would never accept that because that would Manitoba Sugar, between the Northern stores in infringeon theirright to strike.We would not want PineFal ls, the90 percent of the casescome that to that, hesaid to me. our Conciliation andMediation branch solve-the member for Transcona (Mr. Reid) says political. So I tellyou, I madethat offerand quite frankly No, there is another very big difference. He may ifyou wantto have a toollike finaloffer selection, not have noticedit. then you have to make it neutral, but there is another principle at stake here with final offer In the case of Building Products, people were selection. It is afundamental flaw in theprocess of having windows shot out. People were being final offerselection andthere benefits are for that. threatened. 1bere was sabotage of a hostof other I have always said there were some benefits to it, things. There were infractions of the Criminal but this isa fundamental flaw, I believe. Finaloff er Code in CanadaYou know, it isa funnything. I do selection, in my opinion, can bevery a useful tool not rememberone infraction of theCriminal Code when you have bargained down to a couple of of Canada in theManitoba Sugar's dispute or the outstanding issues, andyou have a range in which Northern stores issue in Pine Falls or the vast you can settle them, and the parties cannot for majority of other disputeslabour in theprovi nce. whateverreason come to a conclusion onwhat that • (1520) settlement should be. They agree to a thirdparty settling that, and they put both their offers to that I do know that it occurred, and there were party where they want to be, and the other party convictions in the ofcase theSupercrete-B uilding can either mediate or choose one of the two or Products strike, and werethere at Tmilmobile. So however they agree to settle it. But they canlive when people break the Criminal Code for with that. whateverreason, I findit very, very interesting to see others wanting to findsome law to invoke to We bad a case with final offer selection that theirsalvation after. Thoseall things taketoll a on members of the New Democratic Party always the relationships. They all take the toll on the conveniently forget to mention in this debate, and relationships between the parties and create a thatwas theue iss of a meatcompany in Wmn ipeg situation that makes those disputes unresolvable, where that company was taken to final offer andpeople have tolive with it. selection by the Food and Commercial Workers Now, the members wantabout totalk final offer and put their final offer and the union put their selection. usLet talk finalabout offer selection for final offer and the company said very clearly, if a moment.Let us talk about FOS. Letus remember you acceptunion the offer, we will close thisplant that the FOS that their party craftedwas not a because we cannot live with it. We cannot live mutual tool. wasIt only available actuallywith one with it, and the selector made that choice. The party really having a veto over whetheror not it company closed down, and I think there were a applied. I will tell you,the member for Transcona hundred and some people out of work. What we (Mr. Reid) says, why did you not make it neutral? shouldalways remember,whether it isa gooddeal , Well, I have to tell him something. I made that bad deal, whatever, a negotiated agreement is offer to his then-Labour critic in the hallways of always the best, because then people have agreed theLegislature . to live with the tennsand conditiom with it. I said to the member for Thompson (Mr. In final offer selection, you could havea host of Ashton), would you support making final offer thingsthat a selectorchooses because it is on one selection neutrally applicable, in otherwords, the side or another that make it unliveable for the employer could invoke finaloffer selection and it parties, and if itunliveable is for the employer and could not be vetoed by the employees? And you theyshut down and jobsthe are gone, whois going know, he looked at mein totalhorror. He said the to stand up for those people who are out of work June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4031

then? Not membersof theNew Democratic Party. spem a greatdeal of time andeffort working with So finaloffer selection is n,ot the answer. People both parties tryingto bring things to a conclusion. have to accept responsibility for their actions on Thereport that provided he to uswas that it was an both sides. We tryto bring people to thetable . We unresolvable situation, thatit had come to a poim tryto push them, caj ole them,whatever is required, where, in hisopi nion, it could not beresolved. to get them to concentrate on the important issues We still, Iwould report to the member, have a and reach an agreement that both sides can live conciliation officer in place who is available with. should thatsituation change. Ifwe hadany signal, I think, and haveI come to thisconclusion even I say this to the member, that bringing in a more strongly after being Labour minister four particularindividual where movemem wasneeded years, that that is the way to go. Anything that to forge an agreement, we would appoint whoever allows people to go off to third parties to settle wasnecessary to facilitate that,that and is anoffer their issues-unless it is that specific case where we always make. But when you put someone into both parties have agreed to go to a third party place of Mr. Plantje 's skills andreputation and he -anything that takes them offto a thirdparty, all comes back with thatreport, it underscores to me that, quite frankly,is for those who areweak at the that there are hosta of issues andprob lems there, table orwho have lost control of the situation to andas Ihave saidto themember, part ofthe whole find an excuse to put it off to somewhereelse, to situation may be the financial soundness of the blame someone else, instead of accepting their company in general. own responsibility as negotiators at a table to Ms. Friesen: Could theminister tell me what the negotiate agreements.I do not supportthat. date of that report to theminister was andwhat the Ms.Friesen: Well, whatthe minister is saying is grounds are? What are we looking at in that he supports a different type of final offer outstanding issues or difficulties facing the selection legislation, and since he has had a mediator? majority government for four years,I do not know Mr. Pramik: Staffcannot recallexact the date of what he isdoing making allegations aboutprivate Mr. Plantje'sreport. We willundertake toprovide conversations in the way.hall That seems meto a that to the member. 1be issues there, we got into very weak argumenL Ifyou think thatthere is a them a little bit before, really revolve around different kind of legislation possible that would money, the financial soundness of the company, benefit bothlabour andmanagement inManitoba, concessions thatwere askedby the management. thenI thinkminister the has responsibilitya to put But there historyis a to thisthat has made it such a that on the table. difficult set of negotiations, because I believe in I wanted to ask the minister about Nonhern the previous round of negotiations the company Blower, and I am going to come back to Building hadcome to its employees requesting concessions Products in a minute. Let us continue on the with some guarantee that they would maintain a discussion of the activities of this department in level of employmem. The employees agreed to the last year to bring the panies together at thoseconcessions, and thennext atthe opp ortunity NorthernBlower. What hasamounted this to? for bargaining or thements agree thatcompany the hadmade as part ofthat were not livedup to. Mr. Praznik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, with respect to Northern Blower, we recognized Then the company came back and asked for afterdiscussi onsthat people in the departmenthad more concessions which, as you canciate, appre with bothsides , aftersome discussions I hadwith does nothing for relations in bargaining. That is some of the parties involved, thatwe required the why I am saying this one is a very difficult servicesof anoutside mediator, andwe appointed situation and one that I have a great deal of Mr. Lou Plantje who is well respected in the sympathy andtime for-a greatdeal of sympathy Manitobalabour relations community. Mr. Plantje for, we have a lot of time for all of ourdisput es. 4032 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

But the reason is because of that very bad My deputy minister also reminds me that he relationship coming out of thelast agreement. from time to time hasbeen in contact with various partiesas well, aswe try to find avenues to explore In talking with some of the employees who we a willingnessto move and to resolve the thing. We were involved with andsome of the worlcwe have have not been successful in finding the done, therereally isthe question-!mean, I amnot willingness, particularly on one side, to make a in a position today to get into detail, but one move. suspects and commentthe has come upthat there are financial problems involved in that particular Ms.Friesen: Yes, it was my impression thatthat company that could make the resolution of that report was done before Christmas, and 10 months dispute, quite frankly, academic, and certainly without any movement, as theminister calls it, by underscores-at least the labour people that I one party is along time. Could the minister tell us talkedto therewho spoketo me at apublic meeting what hasbeen ning happe inthe those 10 months? that I was at thought that there were a lot of What efforts has the government made to bring questions about the soundnessof thecompany, and thosetwo parties together? even if they had accepted the concessions that (Mr. Deputy Cbailpersonin the Cllair) were requested, the thing might just shut down anyway. Mr. Pramik:1bere are continuing andhave been efforts by Mr. Davage and his staffto be in touch So there are a lot of questions of believability with both parties, and anangements from time to andhistory andrelationships therealso and just a time have beenmade formeetings of the principals sense that theirpersonal relationships had also that have not happened. One should remember, I come to a bitof a headthat notwas conducive to imagine it is a matter of public record, that the resolving these things. Of the three disputes the ownerof thisparticular company hasbeen court in memberhas mentioned, this the is one that I have a over the last year on a variety of issues, and that great dealof sympathy for theemployees involved may in fact suggest some of the reasons why we in here because of thepast andthe history andthe have hadculty diffi in bringing thisparticular side situation that generally developed. It is a tough to the tablein a meaningfulway. one. Ms. Friesen: Ifthis company has some financial • (1530) problems and if there is an issue of financial viability with this company, can the minister Ms.Friesen: Well, one of theues iss that I raised explainwhy it was given Worlcforce 2000 grants, lastyear was in factthe manydelays that there had payroll deductiongrants for two years, believeI to been in getting mediation or conciliation to thetotal amountof at least $80,000? Northern Blower. At thetime we met lastyear, in fact, there werepromises of coming to the table, Mr. Praznik: The owner, as I said, has been and thenthere variouswere illnessespart onthe of involved in anongoing caseinvolving a trustfund , one side. So I am interested in knowing I believe, in another company, et cetera, andit has particularly the date of the report to the minister. probably been takingup a great dealof his time.It Wasit, forexample , December; was itFebruary? I would not be appropriate to go into the details of do not need knowto the specific date, but I would that particularcase becauseit is before the courts like to know generallywhen that report was made and it is notstill resolved. andwhat progresshas beensince made then. Withrespect to themem ber'squestion regarding Mr. Praznik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, our Worlcforce 2000 grants, I am not familiar with director of Conciliation and Mediation tends to what thosegrants are; theyare not administeredby recall that being sometime, probably early fall, my department. I know when the member raised September of 1993 in which the report was the issue in the House some weeks ago with tendered. respectto the grantsbeing provided to companies June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4033

that were in an active labourdisp ute, either strike even less than the minimum wages act when we or lockout, the Minister of Education (Mr. look atthe bowsat which theworkers are required Manness) and I have bad some discussion about to beon site,as well asthe ones in which they are that and that obviously should be taken into actually involved in loading anddeliveri ng. I have account in the developing of criteria for that asked the minister some weeks ago to look at this, program. I would gather that was something that and I wonder what progress be bas made on this was not considered in the criteria prior to the issue. member bringing it to our attention. In the • (1540) development of anyprogram, one does notalways foreseeevery contingency. Mr. Pramik:Mr. DeputyCllair, I amgoing to ask Mr. Jim McFarlane, who is the director of our I cantell herthat it wasnot a specific desire on Employment Standardsexecutive branch, director the part of this government to break a particular in the department, looks after a number of things strike. Criteria areset; if theymet thecriteria they includingthe WorkerAdvisor office. Just while be were eligible for the grants. But the issue shedoes is coming up to thetable, I cantell themember for raiseabout active wodtdisputes, et cetera,we have Wolseley (Ms. Friesen)that Mr. Plontje'sreport to always taken the position that we should not be us was dated September 16, 1993, so the involved in them one way or the other, taking recollectionof Septemberwas correct. sides. Incomistence withthat, I knowthe Minister of Educationwill lookingbe into thatin terms of Firstof all,to advise themember for Wolseley, setting criteria, and it is valid concem thatquite we have bad no employee complaints from those fraokly just was not thought of at the time, I am people working. We have not bad one filed. The sure,that the criteria were developed. last complaint we have bad regarding this particular situation regarded vacation pay, the Ms.Friesen: In the case of NorthernBlower this paying out of vacation pay to those who are on happened twice, it was not just once, and I strike, and asresult a ofthat complaint, themoney understand the minister now, on reflection, wasordered to bepaid out andbas been. looking at a different policy, will be undertake to ensure, in fact, that the monies that have been The third issue regarding paying currently the estimated for this year in the payroll deduction construction industry wages rate in Building plan for NortherBlower thenwill not flow? Products' current operation, first of all, iftheir drivers are owner-operators, they may not be Mr. Praznik: I cannot give that commitment covered by the specific legislation. The because it is not withinmy ministerialcompetence batcbing/mixing-and I know thatthis may bethe to dothat, but I willcertainly pursue that issue with issue-I have confirmed they are not covered if the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness). As I they are owner-operators of those-[interjection] said, be andhave I bad chance,a after memberthe We have not bad a complaint of anyone raisedit, to chatvery briefly about the issue. There cballengingit. is a recognition that we should not be involved in any kindof program involved inthese , one way or Ms.Friesen: I cancballenge it. the other. 1be member raises a valid point, and I Mr. Pramik:We ll, we havenot bad one of them. willundertake to raise that againmatter with him I say to themember for Wolseley, she may have withrespect to thisspecific situation. asked the question, but they would have to make Ms. Friesen: In the caseof Building Products, I thatcomplaint and have it adjudicatedbecause that have asked the ministerto investigate thepayment is a matter to be adjudicated before the Labour and bows of workat Building Productssince there Boanl, ifI am correct.If the member is asking me are clear concerns that the payments to the to do a reference, I do not know if I have that replacement workers are less than The ability. I could checkinto it, but none of thepeople Construction Industry Wages Act and possibly who are working under that situation have 4034 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

complained or wanted an adjudication of that Industry Wages Act. He is responsible for the issue. 1bemember for Wolseley may want it, but minimum wages act. It seems to me quite a none of the people who are affectedhave askedor reasonable request and a responsibility of a complainedabout it. memberof the Legislature to raise that issue with 1beother issuethat I justpoint out with respect the ministerand to askthat he investigate it. to the batcbing on site at Buildingthey Products, 1be isminister saying back to me that, no, he is arealso not coveredby TheConstruction Industry not going toinvestigate that,and the only way that Wages Act 1bey areonly coveredif the batcbing/ any information will be forthcoming to the public mixing plant, whatever, is moved to the on this, from the minister responsible for the construction site. So in both cases,under cunent minimum wage actand ConstructionThe Industry definition,they would not be covered by thatact. H Wages Act,is if a replacement workerwho crosses any of those employees feel theyshould be, they a picket lineeveryday in fact lists a complaint. It have a perfect right to make that complaint seemsto me something iswrong there. because the issuewillcome downto whether or Mr.Pramik: Just a numberof otherpoints for the not they areowner-o perators. That isdefinitional a interest of the member for Wolseley and just issue that would have to go, I believe, to the terminology. I understandthat notall of thepeople LabourBoard. lookI to my staffcon for finnation who are currently employed are replacement of that process. It would have to bead judicated in workers. Many of them are people who have thatbody, and noneof thepeople who areinvolved worked there for many years. So I just want to in thathave made thatcomplaint. clarifythat, thatnot manyof thosepeople who are The caution I would make to the member for working there today arepeople who have worked Wolseley is,whenever there is adispute likethis, there for many years. 1bey may have crossed the particularly where there are thosewho are on a picket line, but they are replacementnot work ers. picketline, all types of accusations and things are made. We get that regularly. It makes it difficult Point ofOrder because sometimes the correct situation is not Ms.Friesen : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, a point of conveyed tomembem as to what is going on, but Older. It wasthe wages of thereplacement workers the rumours fly. My experience hasbeen that this which I was specificallyabout asking in theHouse oftenhappe ns. andnow. So thatis theinfmmation I canreport to hernow Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable at thisparticular time.H any of thepeople who are memberdid not have a point of order. It isclearly working underthat ciicumstanceto want test that a dispute over the facts. definition, theycertainly can. ••• Ms. Friesen: Well, what the minister is saying then is that if replacement workers in a strike Mr. Pramik: Well, I would add to the member, situation, where they are crossing picket lines determiningwho is areplacement worker and who everyday, unless they make anlication app to have is a worker who crossed a picket line,makes it thisadj udicated, theminister is notprepared to do even more difficult, determining what people 's anything.That seemsto me a-well, I amnot even circumstancesare. But I say to themember as well surehave I woldsfor it. that even the Teamsters union have not filed a complaint with thedepartment in this regard. So But theother iss ue is thatdid I ask, andwell Iam there has not even been a complaint by the aware that in situations like this accusations and Teamstersunion. rumours do fly thick and fast. That was why I raised in the House, as a member of the Asmy director points outtome, if themember Legislature, with theminister, to investigate those can bring forward to me some evidence, some conditions.He isresponsible for TheConstruction information, some evidence that wouldprovide us June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4035

with an ability to investigate, we would be more Ms.Friesen : Mr.Deputy Chairperson, well, then, thanpleased to do thatinvestigation. Asthe courts the minister responsible for The Construction have cautioned us on a number of occasions, it is Industry Wages Act andthe minimum wages act, inappropriate for us to go onto fishingexpeditions . is beprepared now to say that people at Building When the union involved, the Teamsters, is not Products, replacement workers and others, are able to do that or file a complaint, whenany of the abiding by thatact? people who are working there do not do that, I Mr. Praznik: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am have to say to the member, if she bas some prepared to say that I have noevidence to warrant evidence that she can bring forward, we will an investigation. I cannotnt warra to the member investigate. We need to have that. Rumour and today thateverything there being is done properly, innuendo are notevidence. but thatonly is - Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson,what does Ms.Friesen: You areresponsible. the ministerconsider evidence, andwhy is benot Mr. Praznik: Well, the member for Wolseley, prepared, asminister responsible for theminimum from her chair, says I am responsible. I am wage act and The Construction lndustty Wages responsible for the administration of those acts. Act, to investigate a question-notan alle gation, a The courts of thisprovince-and I might say, the question-in the House that there may be a memberfor Radisson (Ms.Cerilli ), the memberfor situation here where those laws are not being Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) may not respect those upheld? What does the minister consider as processes, but I do, and the courts of this evidence? province- Mr. Pramik: Fi.IStof all, Isay to the member for • (1550) Wolse1ey, whetherit be aquestion in theHouse or Point ofOrder at thiscommittee or on thepages of theFree Press, a fishing expedition is a fishing expedition. The Ms. Friesen: Point of order, Mr. Deputy member has some evidence, and that evidence Chairperson. That was a totally unnecessary would be the statement of theemployee that they remark on the point of the minister and quite are not beingproperly remunerated or first-hand erroneous. knowledge of someone who has knowledge that Mr. Deputy Chairperson: The honourable they are notbeing properly remunerated, or there is memberdid nothave a point of order. some violation of the act. We will investigate on that basis, and from totime timewe have that type ••• of evidence brought tous, andwe investigateit. Mr.Pramik: Mr. Deputy Chair, the courtsof this The memberfor Wolseleymay ask questiona in province whom my department has to deal with the House, but she brings no evidence, and she -when we enforce laws we like to succeed. We asks just a question without any supporting do not like to have them thrown out of court documentation, and she asks me for lists and because we have not done something properly. documents and statements, and I ask herfor the When courtsthe of thisprovince have said, when same-even the statement of an employee or you areenforcing you tohave have some evidence someone who has first-hand knowledge that or information on which to carry out an people arenotbeing properlyremunerated. Ifshe investigation, thatis what we do. That isnot my brings that to the director of Employment choice. That is not the choice of Executive Standards,will we conduct aninvestigation, aswe Council. That is what we are instructed to do by would do for any other Manitoban who brings us the whocourts willthrow us out ifwe do not. thatkind of infonnation.What we willnot do isgo Now, I do not know the ofkind world that other on a fishing expedition for the member for members live in, but ifwe bad the power, and I Wolseley. imagine the courts have some very good reasons 4036 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June23, 1994

for wanting us to cauyout, this particularly in this minimumwages act. Arewe clear on that? Is that day and age of the Charter of Rights and what theminister issaying? Freedoms, ifwe lived in the kind of world that I Mr. Pramik: Mr. Deputy Chair, absolutely not. gather the members are suggesting, then like the That is not what I said at all. That is one Gestapo of old, the Department ofLabour could circumstance in which we will accept evidence, come in at any time of the day and night and . when anemployee comes forwani with first-hand investigate and seize recordswould andwe live in inf01mation or an employee comes forwani and a police state. That is whatnot we are tobe. That is feels thatthey arenot being properly remunerated. why our courts putthose requirements on us, and But we also said, any first-hand knowledge. That we should respectthem . does not just have to be anemployee. So I say to the member for Wolseley (Ms. Ifthe member may just grant me a moment, I Friesen), if she can come forward to our willhave some otherexamples for the member. Employment Standardsbranch, shedoes not even have to deal with me, if she wants to provide the Mr. Deputy Chair, one of the classic examples evidence to the director of the Employment where we investigate hundredsof complaints each Standards branch, a statement by an employee, year is where the union as the agent of the someone who has- first handknowledge, we will, employees onsite comes forward to the like we do as amatter ofcourse in every other like department, wherethey cansay we have talked to situation, carry out a thorough investigation. Ifit people on construction sites, particularly in the resultsin infractioos, we will issue onlerswe as do constructionindustry where union members arein in any other situation. If those orders are not a variety of sites, that we believe people are not followed, we will proceed with the charges or being �y remunenred l would remind her in whatever through the Department of Justice that this case, the Teamsters, who are the legal we woulddo in any othersituation. bargaining agent of the people there, have not come forwaniwith complaint. a When the members say enforcement, I would just remind them52, thatthereare 000 businesses So I say to the member for Wolseley (Ms. registeredin theprovince of Manitoba. HI were to Friesen), she has asked a question in the House, carry out the kind of rigid enforcement that whichis herright todo. We havechecked into this. members oppositewe ask, would have tohave an I provide her with this information here today army of labourpolice to go and vestigatein the about the procedure that is followed, and I records on an ongoing basis of those 52,000 welcome her to bring forward any such businesses.just Thatis ludicrous. information that shewants to file as a complaint withthe department, andwe will investigate it. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chair, the canminister rattle on about Gestapo and police states and Ms. Friesen: Well, then, let us be quite clear. If inability to enforee hislegislation in thousands of the Teamsters, whose members are not now businesses, but the point remains that he is the workingin thatplant because they areon strike, if Minister of Labour, he is responsible for the thoseTeamsters andthat unionbrought forwani a enforcement of particular regulations. As a request to the minister to investigate, would he memberof the House Idid ask for confirmation then investigate the hours of work and the fromthe , minister oneway or theother, whether in conditions of pay of those replacement worlcers? factthat legislation was beingupheld. That iswhat I believe hejust told me. I understandthat minister the is interpreting that Mr.Pramik : Yes,Mr. DeputyChairpers on, let us legislation then to indicate that only when an remember that there are some Teamsters' employee with first-hand knowledge lays a membersstill working on thatsite unless they have complaint will the ministerinvestigate anything beenthrown out of theirparticular union. Thereare underThe Construction Industry Wages Act or the people who were Teamsters' members who June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4037

worked there, who are working on that site, who So ifthe member wantsfurther clarification, my have crossed thepicket line. We should not forget Directorof Employment Standards would bemore that. It is up to the union to come forward with thanpleased to meet with herand provide her with some evidence.There bas to besome semblance of that criteria thatbe uses in assessingwhether or not first-band information there. It just cannot be idle be sends staffin. speculation. Ms. Friesen: What Iamconcerned about is the In the ofcase The Construction Industry Wages public record and the minister's responsibility. I Act andconstruction unions, for example, like the would certainly welcome the opportunity to meet carpenters, they will come forward from time to withMr. McFarlane,but theissue is theminister. time with infoDDation because theirmembers on a So I want to bespecific about what theminister particular site have said, bey, we do not think accepts, willaccept, asfirst-band knowledge . things are properly being handled here under the act, and they have that information from their Mr. Pramik: First of all, I say again to the members. As the agent of their members, they member for Wolseley, what this minister or any convey it to our department, and we investigate. other ministeraccepts as first-band knowledge is not all that relevant, in fact, not relevant at all If the Teamsters come forward with some because it is whatthe courts will pt acce as thebasis similarinf ormation, we willinves tigate. What we for that.that All we aretrying to do, in fairnessto are nothere to do, Mr. Deputyn, Chairperso is to staff in the Employment Standards branch who be part of a fishing expedition by anybody, have to dealwith these issues every day, theyhave because the courts have clearly said that is not interpreted, based on recommendations, I gather, what we are to do, andwe are beinggoverned by anddis cussionsthey have badwith theDepartment thedirection the of courts.is That not a position, I of Justice on what basis thatthey accept first-band think,it is fair to askour staff to bein, particularly information or through, I guess stretching it difficult during a labour dispute because the somewhat, theagent asbeing the union. rumoursand thestories areflying, and everybody wantsthem investigated. Ifthere oneis bit ofevidence thatpeople arenot being properly paid under The Construction I can tell the member for Wolseley, in another IndustryWages Act or the wageminimum actthat area of this department, Workplace Safety and comes first-band,we willinvestigate it. I make this Health,we canalmost tell inour departmentwhere commitment to themember. we have a workplace dispute brewing becausewe get a lot of complaints aboutWorkplace Safetyand I am not herestifle to aninvestigation, noway, Health fromparticular a area at a giventime . Not but I have to trust the staffin the departmentwho always thecase, but it is indicativeof thefact that have to dealwith the Department of Justice ifwe . a dispute is going on, andpeople in thedispute use launch a prosecution, who have over time whatever tools that they believe are available to developed this type of set of rules about where them to pursue their particular interests. We have they investigate to be able to fit within the to address thatwith a little bit of caution. requirements of our lawyers in theDepartment of Justiceif we have to prosecute.I have to leave it to Ifthere is somefirst-band knowledge that comes their judgment. They are advising me what they throughthe Teamsters to us or throughthe member accept, andI supportthat because they arethe ones for W olseley or any other party, we will investigate. 1batis a very simple request,not one who have to make sure we are able to have prosecutions, and under this administration, we that we have created,but one thatI am advised by have prosecuted. Infact, thatwas not the case, by my staffwho have to deal with these things, who have to work with the Department of Justice on andlarge , priorto 1988. prosecutions, we arerequired to do. • (1600) 4038 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

So we support enforcement, we support because the issue of minimum wage is not as prosecution where arethey required, and wewant simple asit may appear on the surface. to make sure we live by the rules, and when we Some years ago in Manitoba, the Minimum have a prosecution, win it andnot have it thrown Wage Board of the day recommended that the out. Therule is somewhat simple. It hasto besome studentdifferential bedone away with. Theresult, first-hand knowledge, eitherthrough the agent or, I of course, was thatwe now have in Manitoba what am advised, of tbeunion, but therehas to besome one would call the "minimum minimum" wage, basis and first-hand knowledge in order to justify which is a wage that isreally there for the-our that investigation. If the member has some minimum wagehasto bereflective of employment first-hand iofonnatioo, she is wondering whether opportunity for the high school student who works or not it willmeet tbe test, I invite her to bring it after school for a couple of hours for pocket forward with the directorsee to ifit does andmeets money, because we do not have a student that test. differential. We are not in any way trying to stifle an Some membem may look at thatwith surprise, investigation. We just want to make sure it is but whenyou doaway with a differential you have properly done, so ifit leads to a prosecution, we to accommodate the minimum situation. I would arenot going to bethrown out of court. We also do also remind the member, and I am just not thinkit is appropriate if thereis not any basis commenting to the member that that was not a for that, then we should not be involved by one recommendation that I made, that is a side oranother as a tool intheir dispute . recommendation as toprevious wage boards and doing away with that particular differential. As a Ms. Friesen: Could the ministertell us when he consequence, the Minimum Wage Boards that intendsto callthe Minimum Wage Board? have met since that decision was made has Mr. Praznik: We have asked the constituent reviewed that on each time, and I amtold from parties to put forward names. We finally have thosewho have beenat the board consider that in received in the last couple of weeks the final their deliberations. recommendations of names. It is inappropriate for One should not look so shocked. That is, I am me, I think,in fairnessto my cabinetcolleagues, to just conveying to you what the reality has been give a date. as to when I would be bringing up a even before I assumed being Minister of Labour. paperfor it, but I intend to bringforward onevery So I say to members that given the time that we shortly. I stillhave to make a recommendation as have beenin thelast few years,where we have had to the chairof that particular board, butIhope to a very,very low inflation rate andwe where have have it done in the not too distant future. AsIam had difficulties in employment, they are all lofty surethe membercan reciate, app if Iput a date on arguments, those various issues as where the it, it is notfair to my cabinetcolleagues as to when minimumwage should be.It is now timeto callthe I would take a paper forward to authorize that Minimum Wage Board, in my opinion, andthat is cal1ingof the. board what I amgoing to do. Ms. Friesen: Can the minister tell us when the Ms. Friesen: Theministerhas in the past made MinimumWage Boardlast met? much of his desire to call the Minimum Wage Mr. Pramik: Overthree years ago. Board on a regularbasis . Arewe to anticipate that regularis every years?three Ms. Friesen: Could the minister explain how Mr.Pramik: Thehistory of theboard, ithas been labour in Manitoba bas been benefited by the some time since the board has met on a regular three-yearabsence of thisparticular board? basis. There was a three-year period from Mr. Praznik: Well, I am very glad that the September 1, 1976, to July 1, 1979; twoand a half member for Wolseley has raised this question, yeamJuly from 1, 1982, to January 1,1985, and if June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4039

I remember correctly, and the member for There arearguments on both sides, and the point Pembina (Mr. Orchaid)would certainly confirm it, of regularity isa very strong one. the Progressive Conservative Party was not in Ms. Friesen: Could the minister give us an power at that time, and the inflation rate, if I indication of where Manitoba stands now in terms remember correctly, was not 1 or 2 percent either of minimum wage? My understanding isit isthird in thatparticular period. fromthe bottomof the minimum wage in Canada. So before membersget up on a high horse very Could he tell us what thehistoric patternof thathas high, I thinkthey should rememberthat, because been? Where has Manitoba been over the last the fallbecomes even greater. decade? Ms. Friesen: My question was about the Mr. Pramik: We are at the $5 mark, about to minister's policy. He was the one who made the review our legislation. New Brunswick is at a statement about regularmeetings of theMinimum similarleveL Alberta is at a similarlevel. Prince Wage Board. Edward Island is at $4. 75. Newfoundland is at It is auseful statement because it doesgive some $4.75. The ratefederal isat $4and has been there certaintyand some secmity andsome regularity to since 1986. the consideration of theMinimum Wage Boud. It At the higher end, Ontario is at $6. 70; the does not fit, however, with the absence of three Northwest Territories at $6.50. The Yukon is at years, and I am wondering what the minister $6.24; British Columbia at$6. Quebecis at $5.85; considers asregular. Is that what we areto expect Saskatchewan at$5.35; andNova Scotiaat $5.15. for the future? If that is the policy, I think that would behelpful for bothlabour and management We have traditionally beenin about the middle of the pack. With the calling of the Wage Board to understandthat . andanother recommendation, I think aboutthat is Mr. Praznik: The member asks a very valid where we will be, so we are slipping to the lower question.I would have hopedthat one couldhave middle side. We willwant to be somewhere in the looked at a more regular meeting of the Wage middle range. Board. It might endup being three years. When you certainly look at arate in Ontario of The reality of it is, there tends to be erentdiff $6.70, andyou look atthe costof living in a place peoplein theseats of powerof a particularministry like Toronto andcompare it to here and you work from time to time as you go through, and in those factors, it does tend to, I would suggest, circumstancesare erent diff in everyperiod of time. mellow somewhatthe factwe that are theat lower In particularly periods of low inflation and high endof therange, but it istime to callthe Minimum unemployment, the argument for not calling the Wage Boud. board is fairly strong, and I imagine that will govern over time. Unless we make a legislative Ms.Friesen: That is myimpression, that, in fact, change to provide for regular meetings of the we used to be in the middle or even in the upper Wage Board, it isprobably going to be left up to endat some points ofthe cycle andthat we arenow the discretionof thosein power at theday. slipping. That is why it seems to me of great concern that the minister has not called the I have mixed feelings on it. There arebenefits Minimum Wage Boardfor threeye ars. both ways. Themembe r's point aboutregularity to business and labour is a very, very valid one. Once the Minimum Wage Board is assembled, Perhaps the nexttime we have an opening up of thenone canassume even that in thebest scenario our employment standards legislation, that might it will be in the next month, and frankly I doubt be anissue that the Labour Management Review that, but it is still going to take another several Committee mightwant to give some direction on. months in factbefore any changes aremade . 4040 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Does the minister intend to conduct public a thorough review of this legislation and ask the hearings, for example, of that Minimum Wage question whetheror not we should have it. I spent Board,and what is the length andschedule of that? some time meeting with thatreview committee to go over specific issues as they were writing the • (1610) report and getting a sense of where they were Mr.Pramik: Yes, Mr.Deputy Olair,I believe the coming from and how their deliberations were minimum wage act requires the board to hold going. Although we had, generally across the public hearings, andthey willbe. Thatwill be an province, support for a construction industry issue forthe board to detennine where they will be wages scheme, we had hosta of differences as to holding theirhearings what and schedule. what should be in it and what rules and how we Ms.Friesen: So we could be atleast a minimum should deal with this andhow we should deal with of six months away from any changes in the these otherissues. minimumwage act. What disappointed me in the report that I Mr. Praznik: Well, after I receive a received from them was that a number of the recommendation, the process is for a minister to administrative problems with this particular take thatto cabinet andthen toprovide for a notice legislationwere notaddressed because they were periodbef ore changethe in theminimum wage. difficultto address, andthey leftus, quite frankly, Ms. Friesen: I wantto look at The Construction with not very useful advice on how to solve some Industry Wages Act in rural Manitoba and to ask of our administrative problems, particularly the the minister what his plans or policies are for boundary of the greater Winnipeg wages board changing or dealing with the minimum wage districtbeing the30-mile radius from thecomer of concerns that I think have been brought to his Memorial Boulevard and Broadway, if I am not attention in ruralManitoba. correct.I know we had particulara case couple a of years ago in a grain elevator where thatcompany Mr. Praznik: One of my favourite topics of had to have a satellite company do the discussion, The Construction Industry Wages mathematical calculation to findout whether they Act-I appreciate the member's questions, and I were inthe greater Winnipegrate or the rate,rural am surewe aregoing to getinto anopportunity to and theerence diff was about $300,000on the price discuss this whole legislative scheme in some of the project. I thinkthey moved theirfacility 200 detailover thenext few minutes . feet over on their property and were in one I say to the member, this is one area of my schedule versus the other. It sort of raises the department that the more one getsinto, the more question, whyare we even into this? one appreciates all theculties diffi that flow with thisparticular legislation. Over thelast fewyears, we have not adj ustedthe schedule otherthan greater the Winnipeg schedule Firstly, let me say that on one side of the coin on oneoccasion. Iguess I have taken one general onerecognizes thatthere are good things about this increaseforward about two or threeyears ago, and legislation. There are benefits to this legislation. I took one forward this winter to deal with a There arealso downsides to it. There are also a specific situation arising out of the virology lab host of administrative difficulties that comeout of which we hadsome very intense negotiationswith the history of the legislation, the expectations in the building constructionindustry andthe building differentparts of theprovince and hosta of various trades. interests. But it has notbeen intention our to increasethem (Mr. Gerry McAlpine, Acting Deputy or to callthe wage boardsin this particular year for Chairperson,in theOlair) a very good reason in that given the high When I firstbecame minister, we appointed the unemployment level in the construction trades,it wage boards, under Wally Fox-Decent, to conduct was very hard to justify raising those particular June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4041

rates when unemploymentlevels, as Pat Martinof between the two, andI think, equally, that would the carpentersunion pointed out to me, were 65, 70 fit, thatthere isa role for govemment. percent in that particular industry. So it was a I wantedto askthe ministerspecifically what his balance of maximizingthe number of construction response was to those worlcers who told him that jobs that were possible, and that is what we they were being required to buy theirjobs. own decided to do, to leave thent curre rates in place. I knowthe public reactionto what,for example, the Mr. Pramik: Mr. ActingDeputy Chair, I just ask rates are on the greater Winnipeg schedule was the member for Wolseley to clarify if she is pretty supportive of that decision to leave them referring to-! think there were three or four where they were. people fromBrandon in particular, ifthat was the group shewas talkingabout, who came to seeme. I would also pointout to themember, I know the We have a lot of people who come to talk about rural rate is somewhat lower, and there is a these issues. different set of circumstances there, because there are not a lot of construction projects in rural Ms. Friesen: I was simply picking up on the Manitoba,but I do knowthat in somecases various anecdote the minister had just told us, about worlcers who weresubsidizing theiremployers by labour organizations,in factat ourpublic hearings, repayingpart of their wages,which in labourterms camefo rwanl andadmitted very candidly that they is essentially the same as being required to were paying back and making payments to their purchase your own job. I wondered, having been employers in olderto get theirwage costsdown . faced with that evidence, what action or what So that sort of says to me that there was an response the ministerhad. undennining even by thoseunions on thatwages Mr. Pramik: I appreciate the question from the actin olderto maximizea constmctionjob. Again, memberfor Wolseley. First ofall, thiswas not put it begs the whole question: Why are we in this to me as astatement. This was a statementthat was business of regulating wages in one particular made by, I believe it was, Pat Martin from the segment of our society? cmpenters union at the hearings thatwere made. 1bere are some goodreasons to do it, andthere 1bepractice, I gather, in the constmction trades, are a lot of problems with iL So it is probably the has gone on for some time, depending on most difficult set of issues that I have ever had to circumstances, where unionized shops have made deal with,simply because isthere no easy answer arrangements with their employers in older to be to anything. Every one thing you do to solve one competitive on particular bidding. One has to problem has a reaction somewhere else.At some appreciatethat minimum the rate still applies to the point, I am going to have to make some nommionized shop. recommendations arising out ofthe review as to So these would be cases where they have where we go with thislegislation, atleast toclean worlcedthose arran gementseither to get theoverall up some of theadministra tiveproblems. I must tell cost down to make a project go that otherwise the member very candidly, I fear that day would not so they have the work or in a tremendously, because whateveryou doto fixone circumstance wherethey would bebidding against problem, you create anotherproblem somewhere a nonunion shop andtheir rate of pay andbenefits else. Every time you get into it, it begs the would besignificantly enough above theminimum question,why is governmenteven in thisbusiness? that theiremployer would not be competitive on the bidding. Ms. Friesen: Well, I think the role of the Department of Labour in protectingthe interestsof I am no expert in the operations of the labour is certainly one of the reasons that the construction tradesover the years, but I gather, government is in this. The minister, from his from many I have talked to, thatpractice this has particular ideology, may talk about a balance been very common, and it has been one that has 4042 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

beenadvocated by various construction unions in Mr. Pramik: Pardon me if I did imply that they order to ensure that their members were worlcing. were arrangements sanctioned by theact They are Good or bad, I do not know. It depends on the not Thepeople who putthese together, andpeople circumstance.Remember, we arenot talkingabout I have talked to in the labour movement who $5, $6 wage levels. We are talking about, in the negotiatethem, arevery carefulto ensurethat they case of carpenters and others, some pretty arenot violatingThe Construction Industry Wages significant wage levels. Act, andhow they make those particular rebates or payments or whatever anyone wantsto call them. I For example, electricians now on the greater am sure there are also some taxation issues that Wmnipe g scale are at-if I canjust findthem for have to bedealt with. the memberhere-in the case of cmpenters, for example, the Winnipeg rate is in the $20 range. I am no expert in this, but I suspect-my Electricians are over $25; plumbers, over $25; curiosity has always been there about how these even the labour rate is over $17. So we are not woiked out. In some cases, I understand, they talkingabout low-end ratejobs, andif thequestion come offas union dues offthe wage level, and then is getting a price down on a project in orderto get the union makes a payment, which prevents a thepro jectbecause if you arenot withina limit, the taxation issue andalso a violation of the act So, project doesnot go-ifthe choice is no woikor again, you have �you andknow, I I think, what some woik underces, thosecircumstan I am not the pwpose is, but it is done in such a way that it going to be the one to judge that. Those are stays true to theletter of thelaw. arrangements thatpeople have made out in order Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chaitperson, for thatto happen. could theminister tell us whathis time frame is for • (1620) looking at the Labour Management Review Committee's report on The Construction Industry Again, it does underscore that government tries Wages Act? I am particularly interested in one of to regulateto maintainsome level playing field in therecommendations which, I believe, deals with construction, and we have had the benefit of fines andpenaltie s, which would have, particularly generally good labour relations and a pretty given the recent action of the government in well-trained construction industty in Manitoba, Brandon, some implications for labour and that hasbeen thebenefit of this legislation. managementissues in Manitoba. But, every time the system does not respond to particularmovements in theeconomy, particularly Mr. Pramik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I in difficulttimes, people makeother arrangements say to the memberfor Wolseley,if one is going to under the act to maximize thework. Maybe that have this legislative scheme, that I agree should be left alone; maybe it should not be. wholeheartedly,then you haveto have aneffective People do it because they wantto woik, andthey set of penalty provisions. I mean, it is no use wantthat particular income . How do you regulate having legislation if the cost of a violation is that? It is tough; it is really toughbecause you end iuelevant. upkilling job a , the peopledo not have thewoik. I have to say to the member that, when I Thatis toughto look peoplein theeye. assumed responsibility for this portfolio, we made Ms. Friesen: Mr. Acting Deputy Chaiiperson, some changes internally in the department and yes, well, it has given us a skilled and trained revamped, I think, made more effective the way labour force who are paid appropriately. I just we approached these things. We have been wanted pickto up on something the minister just worlcing very hardon enforcement issues, and we said. Hesaid, who make arrangements under the have obtainednow-and I look to my director for act. It seemsto me thatthese are-would these not information on prosecutions. We have had a be arrangements outside the act? Where does the number of prosecutions over the lastfew years, I minister'sresponsibility fall in this? think, five or six prosecutions between June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4043

construction, industry and employment standards. charge of this legislation before I came to this There have been two directly under The place, and they were not all of my political stripe, Construction Industry Wages Act, and I did not pay a great deal of attention to this understand one of them was an out-of-province legislation and enforcement in the past. That firm that was not complying with our minimum should never be anexcuse for the present, but we wage rates. We obtained a judgment in that case; are very proud of the efforts we have taken, they were fined-a conviction-under the act. because not only have we obtained the first two Theyhave not been finedyet; that is stillpending. prosecutions under this act in 20 years, in two We have also endeavoured in all of our serious decades, but one of the things we have done to cases to publish their names in the WorkSafe facilitate that is we hadto go through a thorough magazine, so that any convictions under-if the training of our staff. member will grant me one more moment. Mr. What we foundwhen we came into theseoffices Acting Deputy Clair, just to continue, it hasbeen and we made some changes was that our staff in pointed out to me thatin the caseof theRed Lake construction firm, we also pursued a charge this particular branch had no training in doing a accum against the director, the owner of the company properinvestigation, the ulationof evidence who was convicted, and that, in addition to full and all of the things that are needed in order to recovery of whatwas paid,which reinfon:es thatit facilitate a prosecution by the Department of does not pay to breach theact because all you need Justice. We have been working with that is one employee to complain, and the department to make surestaff thatour when they investigation, you have to pay it anyway, so you go in now and do an investigation are evidence should not bid on that basis. gatheringin case it leads to a prosecution.

The court levied a fine of, I think, $6,500 in I would also point out to herwith respectto fines fines. We have also endeavoured to continually that underThe Construction Industry Wages Act publish the list of orders that are issued in the the fines can be up to $20,000. One of those six WodcSafe magazine so that a company that is not prosecutions we made dealing with the complying, anorder is issuedthat becomes public construction areaviolation was not prosecuted information, and that magazine is well readin the under The Construction Industry Wages Act, but business and construction communities. So it underThe Payment of WagesAct, becausethere is becomes pretty common knowledge, which a provision for continuing violation and the ultimately helps in enforcement because if penalty there can be $300 a day. So it can be a someone keeps showing up, it encourages other much morestringent enfo rcement mechanism. people if they are being mistreated to come forwardwith a complaint. So I say to her,despite thecriticism that maybe Ms.Friesen : Well, at therate of two prosecutions we are not doing enough, I thinkgiven where we over six years, I do not know that thingsgoing are started, which was virtually limited, if any, to keep showing up as the . minister said, two enforcement and certainly no prosecutions, we prosecutions underThe Construction Wages Act. have built the stafftraining, we have structuredso that we are now able to move forward on Would the ministerindicate whethercompanies which are in violation are also able to continue to prosecutions, and we have been moving forward bid on publicpro jects? on prosecutions. Mr. Pramik: The member for Wolseley (Ms. I think we are moving in the right direction, Friesen)might be very interested to know�he maybe not as fast as some would want us, but might make light of our two prosecutions inthis considering where we started and what has area, but they were· the first two prosecutions in happened in Manitoba for 20 years, I think we over 20 years.It says to me that thosewho were in have come quite a way. We still have a way to go. 4044 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Ms. Friesen: The otherpart of that question was, That is a difficult one to argue, but certainly will companies who are in violation of these acts there has to be an awareness, and my department beallowed to bid on publicly funded projects? has been working with Government Services in Mr. Pramik: Just to put things inperspective for order to makethem aware that there areliabilities a moment, we issue literally hundreds of orders in andthose things that go withit andthat the posting · every given year. Some of them arevery innocent of a bond to those companies who provide violations. I just want toput this inperspective to potential risk might be an avenue to pursue that the member as to why a clear rule would probably protectseveryone and imposessome additional but be unfair. Quite a number of the orders that we justifiablepenalty. issue deal with what categories people should be Ms. Friesen: Does the issue of the bond apply in. Oneof thereal administrati ve problems of this equally to companies from out of province? particular actis that our categories aremany years out of date, and as construction has changed, Mr. Praznik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I where it has now moved much more into must admit to the member, I am not entirely premanufactured material that is installed, one of familiar with all of the bonding policies of the the great problems ourst affhave had, andwe get Department of Government Services. I amadvised inquiries regularly, is: Under what rate do I pay by my staff that the bonding of any company people? I mean, are they this, arethey that, where which has been charged and convicted under our should they be, andthey do not fit. acts would apply whether they are in the province . Many times we have struggledwith even giving or from outside theprovince advice to people. So a lot of our orders, or a I guess a good example would be Red Lake percentage of our orders, certainlyall not of them, Construction which has been convicted under but a certain percentage of them, are reflective of legislation which is an Ontario company-no, wrong categorization-a person in one category pardonme, they are Manitobaa company, but any should have beenin another;it is challenged, andit of those companies bidding on jobs is likely to be has to be adjudicated. Simply to put a ban on required tohave a bond. anyone who hasan older outstanding againstthem would not be fairbecause of thecireumstances of We will intocheck this a little bit more. It is a the order. complicatedarea that I must admitto themember I do notknow a greatdeal abo ut Her point is a valid • (1630) one, andwe willget her some more infonnation. I With respect toconvictions, my staffadvise me will undertaketo have my directorprovide some thatwe as aprovince havea provision for bonding moredetailed info rmationon thebonding policy to in government orders. Anyone who has had a themember. I aminterested in it myself. significant conviction with a violation certainlyis required tohave a bond orcould berequired to be Ms. Friesen: The Labour Management Review bonded for that particular amount, which would Committee recommended that fines be increased protectanyone worldngunder that situation. immediately by 2.5 times their present value. Could theminister tell me what histimetable is for I respect what the member, I believe, is saying, considering this review for the possibility of the that pemaps the province should adopt a policy implementation of largerfines? where we would not allow anyone to tender who hasbeen convicted under the act. 'Ibere are some Mr. Praznik: Yes, Mr. Acting Deputy difficulties with that, because if they have been Chaitperson, that obviously is going to form part convictedand they have been thenfined, they have of any package that I take forward for been punished, and should they be punished consideration on reforming or dealing with this further by being prohibited from tendering on legislation. I just say to the member that our governmentproj ects? highestfine was $6,500.1be limit was $20,000. June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4045

So given where the courts have been setting At this particular time, we do not have the those fines, unless we imposed a minimwn, and I recommendation. I would not want to preclude us would be hard-pressed to impose a very high at some day looking at some charge in some minimum for those circumstances whereyou have certain circumstances,but I fully appreciate that if a very small infraction but an infraction you charge everywhere, thenyou have defeated nonetheless, so you leave that discretion to the the great ability of that branch to do itsjob. courts, and they have not been using the full There are probably-! am sure the member availability of our finerovisions p currently. would even concede the point-some It will be something that we will certainly look circumstanceswhere there isa needfor a bigname into,and, again, I recognize thatfully fineshave to to settle a dispute. The issues are probably being be roapp priate, an appropriate deterrent, orthey settled, but it is a face-saver to both parties and a have no meaning at all, and they encourage the big nameis need ed with abig pricetag, and even if violationof theact. That we willhave to worlc:into it is for a few days to allow everybody to penthe deal andleave the table, et cetera, there is a our overall recommendations on the legislation, $2,000- or $3,000- or $4,000-cbarge, and both and also, we will have to take into account what partiesmay well have thefinancial wherewithal to other legislationthe government is doing so we are do it that you might want to consider charging sort of a consistent across other departments of something for that or working out that government,as well. arrangement. Ms. Friesen: I have a couple of other, I think, So I say to her, if I ever brought that short questions on general departmental policy. recommendation forward, it would only bein that One is to do with Conciliation and Mediation. Is light. It isnot something I particularlywant to do, the government intending to move to a although there areoccasions where I would like fee -for-serviceprocess? that ability. Mr. Pramik:I smile withthat question because it Ms.Friesen: Which jurisdictionsdoes that exist in is a dilemma for me as a minister and for my at themoment? deputy as we go through difficult budgets. We have not done that this year, and it is not a Mr.Pramik: Mr. ActingDeputy Olair,just wbile recommendation thatwe particularly would want Mr. Davage is coming up and gathering his to makebecause services the of thedepartment are thoughts on whatother jurisdictions , isthere some ones that certainly have a big role to play in the charge for Mediation or Conciliation Services, vastma jority of labour disputes in theprovince. thereis one otherarea I shouldjust raiseto befair to themember. There is one part to that, though, that does concern me a little bit, and that isthat there are We bad a particular problem in expedited circumstances where our services are, shall we arbitrations,which the process was there to speed say-1 would notsay overused,that not is quitethe upthe arbitration process. We havebad, time from word. There are circumstances where I will tell to time, particularly oneunion whichbas overused you thatas minis ter, I would like to have beenable it, in theopinion of ourst aff-1 know onetime we made thecomment, pelhaps we should charge for to charge for theservices, because, quite frankly,I service. But we had some discussions, it think we were used for other purposes by the this and became a tool that got used. You know,you apply parties, andboth parties could have easily afforded for it, andthen you would nothave it, but everyone to have made a contribution. I am not thinking was in place to do it. about Conciliation Services. I am thinking about where we have to bring in a mediator, andwe are Sowe badsome discussions withthe individuals paying a daily fee, and it can add up to a pretty involved, and it is used now more appropriately, expensive bill. but that may be where some of the-ifshe has 4046 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

picked up some seme of a charge coming, it may I also point out to her that of our two officers come from there. I look to Mr. Davage now. who VSIPed,we were not particularlyhappy with the fact we were losing two. The second one to am Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, I advised that no apply was very, very strong on wanting to retire. jurisdictions charge, but I am sure, in We had quite a lot of discussion, but that conversations I have had with some Labour individual was veryinsistent that they have the ministers, that they have that same feeling about opportunity to go. They had beenlong-time a and some particular cases where you would like the very good employee, and it is hard to say no in ability to-themusings of a Labourminister. thosecircumstances . • (1640) So what we have done in thepresent to sort of Ms. Friesen: I wanted to ask also about the till in is we have combined our Pay Equity branch, department's policy on hiring conciliators who because our big thrust on pay equity was in may be on pension from the govermnenl Is that implementing in the school divisions and the case? I was told of one particular case, and I hospitals, and that worlthas wound down, but we didnot want to losethe Pay Equity function within wouldlike to raiseit as ageneral policy issue. the Ministry of Labour. So we felt it was best to Mr. Pramik: Yes, I know exactly the case to move that individual who was there into which the member for Wolseley refers. We are Conciliation andMediation branch, wherethey having a bit of a problem now in theConciliation would have a shared role, because much of the andMediation branch becausewe have had verya worltthat they did with schooldivisions on thepay goodstaff in therefor a numberof years, andin the equity side was good training for conciliation and last year or so, six months, we have lost three of mediation. our conciliation officers, one who retired prior to So given the fact that there was not a very big the VSIPs and two who took advantage of the worltload in that Pay Equity branch, this was a VSIPs. The consequence has been thatwhen you very good arrangement to ensure we bestutilized have a small shop with, really, six conciliation our staff.So we still have that ability within the officers and you have half who choose to retire department, andit tilleda void in Conciliation and -you know, these are very interesting jobs, and Mediation with an individual whose experience they do not have a very highturnover. wasgrowing. So we have reached a point where we have We also, as we look at addressing this issue, I this-halfour staff, essence,in departing. We ran thinkwe postedone of those vacancies aswell, and into a bit of a problem that we neededto bring another one we are trying to decide bow we are someonein for a particular dispute. We were short going to till il We tilledone, pardon me, fromthe of staff at this particular time, and the one re-employment list, and I wethink posted another conciliation officer-who had retiredbut had not oneor aregoing to.It has been now.tilled received a VSIP, so he was not prohibited under Should we need it, we have also had some the VSIP arrangements-we brought back on discussion-as the member may know, there are contract to fill in the void because of his some excellent people in the last few years who experience andability andknowledge of those have retiredout of thelabo ur movement, out ofthe particular issues. It was bettermore and effective business community, generally from the labour, to bring that individual in than it was to train management community in Manitoba, who are someone or find someone on the outside. We well respected on both sides, whohave indicated recognize you are always open to the argumentof to us that they would be available should they be the double-dipping andthose types of things. This, required on contract. They are not former I can assure the member, was because of the government employees. So we are building up a circumstances. cadre of people that we can access as required. June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4047

Some of the names that come to mind, I do not the ability to have a list for those circumstances think, would be strangers to the member for where I amcaught short with our current staff.We Wolseley. cannot justify having seven conciliation officers. Sixis adequate for our regularneeds, but I need to Ms. Friesen: So the case of this particular have a larger cadre. individual who was on pension from the government or is on pension with thegovernment Ms. McCormick: In the 10 minutes we have is anexception, not the rule. As Iunderstand what remaining, I would like to ask a few questions the minister is saying is that the department then is which aresort of broad-brush questions before we as apolicy moving away from full-time positions get into the specific program areas, which, I andto contractpositions . imagine, willhave to wait for anotherday. Mr. Pramik: No, not at all as a policy are we Thefirst comes out of the ActivityIdentification moving away. We are now at full staff statement that theManagement Services Division complement to where we were. But I have a "coordinates legislative and regulatory problem asLabour minister. Thearbitration or the development" mediation-conciliation community in Manitoba Can you give me some indication of what -andevery time I announce thathave I app ointed legislative andregulatory development areas have Wally Fox-Decent as amediator, members on the received yourdepartme nt's priority attentionin the otherside allsay, ah,Wally. It is reflective of part last yeafl of theproblem we have here now, is that I do not have a large enough cadre of people who are Mr. Pramik: Just to go over the list with my available to flU in, particularly in mediation deputy to make sureI did not forget anything, the circumstances,where you need thatoutside name, big areathat has been drawing the worlc of this where you need thatoutside individual whomyou branch is a rather huge undertaking that our canbring in at the latter partof a dispute after the departmentinitiated, andI have to tell the member conciliation officers have done all that they can for Osborne that this reallycame from within the andyou need anew face at thetable. department as opposed to being initiated at the cabinet table. In fact, thedepartment came to sell So given the fact we have some very excellent me on it, and that is in the refonn of our public people from the labour relations community who safety legislation. arenow retiredand in a neutral position, andthey have expressedinterest in beingavailable for those As themember very well knows,we administer, type of things, we wantto have a listof peoplethat I believe, eight public safety acts from oil burners if we have a lot of disputes at a particulartime and and gas to elevators and the whole particular we need a spare conciliation officer for a dispute gamut,and statutesthese all developed going back, where ourcurre nt staffis all tiedup, we could pull I guess, to the late 1800s in Manitoba, over someone offthe list for a one-shot contract and, different periods of time,with different regulatory more importantly, where we need mediators that schemes and different sets of penalties and we have abroader list of respectedindividuals who differentsets of authorities. can be in mediation thanthe very short list that I Whatmy staffconvinced me of wasthat it wasa currently have. need now tolook atthese pieces of legislation and So I amtrying to build upthat cadre, haveand I to combine theminto onepublic safety act. hadsome veryinfonnal discussionswith people in The one exception to that is The Fires both the labour, management community about Prevention Act,which, I believe, should remain how we candevelop thatbeyond list two or three separate in establishing the Manitoba fire names, andthat is what we are�g to do. commission because we werethe firstjurisdiction It is not a policy of this department to go to in North America to establish a fire commission contractconciliation officers , but I do have to have after the great Chicago fire,and there is an 4048 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

historical presence there that I would like to organizations who offered comment during the maintain, but, besides that, developing this year '93 on your progress? common theme . Mr. Pramik: I would like to introduce Mr. Dino So what we embarked on, with my authority Speziale, who is our director of public safety and, I believe, cabinet approval, was a major programs of this review and of our Information consultation in all of these various areas which is Systems.He is ourMr. Fix-itin the department. He going on with allthe stakehol ders, and wehope to looks after all our computer and information have prepared a draftstatute sometime within the systems. Mr. Speziale has chaired the internal year, I guess, which we will thenconsulting be on, committee that has embarked on this particular and if it receives approval from cabinet, would process. bring to theLegislature . The member's question is very timely in that I Ms.McCormick : I would like to askthe minister am advisedthat the 60- or70-so page reportof the for the benefit of many of the people who have consultations will comingbe out sometime within beenconsulted during theprocess, what year? Are thenext month or two. It isbeing reviewedin final we taJking thecalendar year '94, the fiscal period form to go into printing, I understand. Anyonewho of thisgovernment, or what would you say was the has a concern that things have gone into a deep yearyou aredescribing something? sinkhole, thatis not the case.

Mr. Pramik: I guess I have a problem. I hope to As I am sure the member for Osborne (Ms. have within�I amadvised from thosewho are McCormick) can appreciate, given her worlc. in working on it with limited resources that some other areas of legislation and regulation in this timewithin the new calendaryear, which would be department in other lives, they are complicated 1995, I should have a draft of that particular matters, andthere is a greatdeal of wmkto go into statute. producing those kinds of documents. It will be • (1650) coming out shortly. As the member can calculate as well as I, itis Ms. McCormick: Some of the responses likely, ifwe have anotherlegislative sessionbefore identified some issues of immediate concern for a generalelection, this may, dependingwhat on the public andpersonal safety. Was there an attemptto statutelooks like andthe reaction of stakeholders, review theback feed that was forthcoming fromthe bea piece thatof session. original consultation to detennine whether or not therewere things which could not legitimately H we do have a legislative session, it would be await a longer-tenn regulatory development up to a re-elected administration or a new process? administration todecide whether they would bring it in, but thegroundwmk is being done and,I think, Mr. Pramik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chairperson, I very thoroughly by so many who areinvolved in am advised fromthose who have worlc.ed so hard thisprocess. on thisthat, in theiropini on,in sortingthrough the commentary, the sort of pressing issues that were Ms.McCormick: I have beenexperiencing some raised hadto do with fees and some enforcement increasing concern that there is a high level of provisions, but the regulatory frameworks and anxiety out therethat people who have contributed schemes and those types of things were felt that to thisprocess arenot beingkept well-infonned on they could wait tillthe general review. There was the progress of their input. It seems there are nothing raised thatwas so pressing that it would people who fear that their input has just have to proceed prior to the larger piece of disappearedinto a. sinkhole. legislation coming forward. We hadample ability Can you tell me what mechanism wasused to under existing statutes to meet theneeds of public communicate back to the many groups and safety. June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4049

Ms. McCormick: There are two areas which, I experiential requirements. It is purely a fee l, perhaps aredeserving of closer scrutiny. For marketplace activity. example, there was a concern that there was no Hasany concernbeen raised or addressedwithin standard specifically for the electrical work done your department with respect to these people? in hospitals. Given that there are hospital sites, or hospitals pending construction right now, is there Mr. Pramik: Mr.Acting Deputy Chairperson,we anintention to examine the specificstandalds? have had representations made by some in the industry who would like us to put a provisionin for Mr. Pramik: Mr. Acting Deputy Chair, the two licensing contractors. I do not know what the issues here, one being the installation, which is position of the member or political party is or if governed by TheElectrici ans'Licence Act-and I they have takenone on this particularissue. do not think there was a concern raised about the quality, the competency of the people who were AsI tryto sort it out, there are lota of different doing the work and installation. The other issue ways to view this. I guess the question becomes has to deal with the requirements in hospitals, whether one licenses the individuals doing which are governed by the appropriate building particularwork, or thework thatthey do. codes. Currently,the regulatory scheme inconstruction I would look to my staff in that regard ifthere regulates thework that is done throughthe various was a particular issue, because we are now building codes,as the memberis well aware.If one entering the new code process again for revisions gets to the point of licensing those who do it, and of the code-pardon me, with respect to the although there is training for tradespeople, et electrical code. There is a whole national process cetera, they are not restricted. There is no for dealing with those particular issues which we requirement that I have to hire a journeyman are now probably in about the middle of in carpenter to build a housefor me. I may choose to revamping thoseparticular codes. do it, but it is not a condition of me building a house. It would change somewhat the regulatory So there is nothing flagged. If there is a scheme that we use. particularissue that presents a dangeroussituation in hospitals, I would appreciate a little more What I am always leery of in these specific information on it, so that we could deal circumstancesmuch ishow of it is a real problem with thatwith the Ministryof Health in theinterim. thatto has be ssedaddre versus how much of it is someone trying to secureonopoly a-m is not the Ms.McCormick: I thinkthat what was notedwas word, but to some protection for their an absence of a standald for electrical work done secure turf particularbusiness. government The should not be in hospitals, and it may be something that your in the businessof doing that, although we do. I do department mightwant to assess. not want to be a hypocrite. Wedo do it, but is it The other area of concern is the interesting really something that serves the public good orthe situation, and it opens the broader issue of group of a number of contractors. licensing and credentialing of people who act in The Acting Deputy Chairperson (Mr. areas whichinfluence public safety, andthat is the McAlpine): area of the credentialing of people who hold Order, please. The hour being five themselves out as general contractors. There is a o'clock, time for private members' hour. rise. clear licensing requirement for engineers, for Committee architects, et cetera, and also for people who are HOUSING tradespeople in variousdiscipli nes, but one ofthe areas that continues to trouble is that in between Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, these people are people who are general please.Wtll the Comm itteeof Supply please come contractors who really have no requirement at all to order. Thissection of the Committee of Supply for any kind of education, credential or even will be dealing with the Estimates for the 4050 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Department of Housing. Does the honourable more than twice as likely to be in need as Minister of Housing wish to make an opening homeowners, and the largest group in need is statement? family households . For two-thirds of those households in core need, affordability is theironly Ron. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing): housingproblem . Yes, Madam Chaiiperson. I have a brief opening statement. • (1440) I am pleased to present the Estimates for In April 1993 in the fe deral government's Housing thisyear. As you know, the Department budget, the federal government announced that of Housing is responsible for the overall effective January 1, 1994, no new commitments development and delivery andon administrati of would be made for social housing. The federal provincial housingpolicy andprograms . government has agreednot to break any of its prior commitments. They will continue to fund all of Thedepartment hasa threefold mandate. One is those commitments they had made prior to that to enhance theaffo rdability of andacce ssibility to that are existing, andin effect, the announcement a suitable and adequate supply of housing for terminated the 1986 global and operating Manitobans, especially those of low or moderate agreements for new commitments and for the incomes and those with specialized needs. The constructionof newpro jects, so we have no federal second is to maintain and improve the quality of money for new housing initiatives. the existing aging housing stock, anda thiJdis to facilitate the housing market where otherwise The fe deral government has stated that new limiting interventionist measures to situations housing initiatives and commitments would be where it is eddeem essential to the public interest. funded, if at all, through savings that we can generate bere in the provinces. Savings generated Housing is a provincial area of responsibility through improved efficiencies and the through my department, but provincial housing administration andmanagement of existing social policy has been and continues to be heavily housing acrossCanada, we havebeen told, we will influenced by federal housing policy and beallowed to use for new housing initiatives. expenditures. The federal government, through Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation has Therefore, while committing itself to retaining operated both unilaterally and in cost-sharing funding for the pre-1994 project and unit arrangements with the province to fund the commitments, thefederal government effectively majority of socialhousing activity inManitoba. has withdrawn from any comprehensive new . housingprogramming across the board. This poses Since 1986, socialhousing delivery in Manitoba a problem for us here in Manitoba and indeed in has beenundertaken through global andoperating otherprovinces acrossthe nation to ensurethat we agreements with Canada Mortgage and Housing exen the requisite influence over how federal Co1p0ration. 1bese agreements set out provincial housing dollars will beexpended across Canada delivery and administrative responsibilities in andthat federaldollars to existing communities in return for federal cost-sharing on a 75 percent Manitoba and any savings generated through this federal and 25 percent provincial basis. Prior to existing framework willcontinue to be reinvested that time, most of the social housing stock was in this province and not siphoned off to other sharedon a 50-50 federal-provincial basis. projects. Of thesome 377, 000households in Manitoba, it Thatis a concernthat provinces expressed when is estimated that 10.8percent of themin are core we met in June,that we have, combined amongst housing need. That represents about 40,000 theprovinces across the nation, managedsince this households. More than two-thirds of these announcement wasmade to save some several households are locatedWmn in ipeg, and of those millions of dollars, andwe are concerned thatwe household needs, you will find that renters are be allowed to use those dollars for our own June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4051

provinces and not seethem siphoned offto some Point Douglas, wish to make an opening other arena. statement? Continued provincial cost-sharing of federal Mr.George Hickes (Point Douglas): I would just housing initiatives, either through currently like to make some brief comments on what is existing programs or through initiatives that are perceived to be eninghapp in Housing Authority. new, will position Manitoba as an active partner Meeting with tenants from Lord Selkirk Housing and will work towards maintaining the federal and also tenants of various seniors' homes, there government's financial investment in theprovince seems to be a lack of maintenance and repair to the long-tenn benefitof Manitobans. taking place in these units. So I would like to pursue that a little furtherEstimates. in We , of course, also are involved in the area of property management. That cannot beoverlooked When they talk about lack of maintenance and as it relates to the second mandate of the repairs, for instance, an example theygave me department which is to maintain and improve was, at 817 Main Street, the windows in the existing housing stocks, something which has buildinghave not beenwashed for two years. They become now evenmore critical than it was before. used to bewashed twice a year, every spring and every fall. Thereeven are residents there that have We have theManitoba HousingAuthority which not put uptheir airconditioning units because they has beenput together as anamalgamation of close are hoping that they will get their windows to a hundred regional housing authorities that used eventually washed. to exist in the province. That amalgamation into one new Manitoba Housing Authority hasbeen in A lot of thesuites thatindividuals live in, that I place now going on towards two years. We have spoke to, have not been painted for years and managed to free up many dollars by that years, some of them up to 10 years. They are amalgamation, avoiding duplication and wondering what is happening. Is it because of paralleling of services. We have alsomanaged to cutbacks, or is it just maybebecause there are less enable consistency in decision making and an maintenance people now than there were in the overview approach. past?

There was concern at the initial amalgamation Those were some of the grave concerns that that regional areascontinue to bewell represented, were expressed. People are getting very so wehave madeevery effortto ensure that MHA concerned, and when we are talkingabout good, hasregional representatives on it More thanthat, safe housing, they are still questioning the we are sending MHA out into the communities' possibilityof providing security servicescertain in subcommittees to meet in the communities and areas. meet with people there. A good example was the community of Lord I do not want to take too much more time. We Selkirk, which is a huge housing development. were a little late getting started, and I know the They have built, through thisgo vernment andthe critics have questions. I have a number of other city and govfederal ernment, a beautiful recreation things that I think are of interest, but they may centre there. It has helped to keep a lot of the come up in the fonn of answers to questions that people pennanent there. They enjoy it They love areput to me. living there, but they are wondering why cannot some of the local people, through some of With that, I will pausein my comments andgive kind be the critics their opportunity to express their employment initiative, hired to do some of the concerns andquestions asktheir of me at thistime. local work like, for instance, the grass cutting, some of the thatpainting is required,because there Madam Chairperson: Does the critic for the is a lotof graffitiin a lot of thebuildings, and they official opposition, the honourable member for have nottouched them for quite some time. 4052 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Also, in discussions withthe tenants, and I think provide. I hope that will continue because as they had an excellent idea-there are so many elected membeiS we are here to serve the public dollars usedto fixup aftervandalism takes place, andto do the bestwe can. I would just liketo thank and amI sure it is in thethousands of dollars-why the minister and hope she will passon that to her cannot a couple of local individuals from the staff, thatthe people really appreciate the help that community either be trained or hired as security has been provided to individuals living in for the area, which, I think, is an excellent idea? ManitobaHousing. Thankyou. You have local people who know the people, and you have such ahigh unemployment rate for the • (1450) area I thought it was a goodidea, andI would just Madam Chairperson: Does the critic for the like to pass that on tothe minister. Maybe we can second opposition party wishto make anopening pursue thatlittle a further. statement? Some of the other areas that I have been made Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam aware of arethe allocationof some of the contracts CbaitpeiSon,I want to just maybe kindof pickup that areissued out by the Housing Authority, the on where the member for Point Douglas (Mr. question of how they are tendered and what is Hickes) left off, andthat is by also complimenting there for follow-up. Some of the individuals who the Minister of Housing. You know, over the past have hadsome plumbing workfor an example, the six yeaiS, I have had opportunity to deal with contractor would come in, start the jectpro and virtually all of the different ministries in one disappearfor montm. Thenthey would come back capacity or another asking ministeiS questions in later; maybe they had left a big hole in the wall Estimatesin varying departmentsand so forth, and where their drywall has been removed. It just no one has given better straightforward opinions createsdust collection anda verybad atmosphere to some of the homes. They are wondering why and at least has made a sincere attempt to try to thosethings have to takeplace. facilitate an opposition member to be able to accomplish something. I wanted to express that Theother area thatwould I like topursue is the andsay that I do very much appreciate it. whole issue about local boards.housing I know it Having saidthat, I wanted to comment basically was raised in the meeting of mayors and on the direction that I would like to see the councilloiS-1 thinkthat meeting was in Brandon Estimates of Housing going because we are -and theyeven passed a resolution encouraging probably lookingat an the Minister of Housing to re-establish the local afternoonof discussion on housing boards and provide adequate funding Housing, and, that is, to talklot a about what the authorityfor that.I guessthe whole pmposeof that Minister of Housing alluded to in her opening is for the individuals to have the local individuals remarks-that is, just the number of nonprofit from thosehousing unitshave theability to have a housing units thatout are there. say in what happensin their homes. I think most Manitobans do not realize the Those are some of the areas I would like to magnitude of the Department of Housing and pursue a little lateron, andthose are concernsthe CMHC and the role that both play in tenns of that have beenraised. I would just like to mention providing shelter for Manitobans. I must say, that every issue so far that Ihave raised with the Madam ChairpeiSon, I recall one of the reasons ministerhas been looked into and upon.acted On why I was an opponent to the Charlottetown behalf of myself and the constituents and other Accont was because the federal govemment was people who have raisedthose issues withme thatI wanting to minimize the role of housing. We have passed on to the minister and her office, I acknowledge and recognize that the federal would just like to thankand her her stafffor the government has to play a significant role in excellent assistance that we have been able to providing shelterfor Canadians. June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4053

Madam Chairperson, if we take a look at the traditional ways in which we are providing operational costs of some of these nonprofit housing programs. housing complexes and the money that we put to We have a number of housing programs, and I capital investment, to the continual upgrading of am hoping to be able to get some of those the maintenance costs and the many other costs programs and some of the actual percentages or that are out there, you will find that the one-time numbers of people who are participating in a capital expenditure to build a complex is, in fact, particularprogram, at if allpossible this afternoon. one of thecheapest. It is fairly costefficient It is So then we could talk about the most heavily easy to pop up a building for a halfmillion dollars , subsidized nonprofit housing, and that being the relatively easy to pop up a building and make a onessuch as theone thespeaker made referenceto, commitment for half a million dollars to pop up a LordSel.kirlc. I willmake reference to Gilbert Park building. The real cost is the ongoing cost. Ifwe quite a bit thisafternoon, because I take greatpride takea look athow housingis financed through the in representing theGilbert Park residents complex. Department of Housing andthrough CMHC, you will find that it isthe operational costs thatreally If we take a look at that form of nonprofit determine a significantportion of that budget. housing, is there some direction thatwe can take that? I believe there is. I also believe that this I understand to a certaindegree why it is the particular minister is receptive to looking at that federal government might have done what it has change. Thisis what I intendto talklot a about this done withrespect to its freezeon commitment for afternoon andto find out where theminister would additional cost through new projects, and I think like to see thisgo. Hopefully, what we will seeis that, whetherwe accept thatnot, or the engechall is some form of a general consensus, because I do uponus aslegislatoiS to find out wewhat cando to believe thereis a politicalwill to do whatis right in try to better spend what financialresources are dealing nonprofitwith housing because so many of there. the answers are relatively simple. It isjust having the political will and the support of different Madam Chaitperson, I believe that there are a inierest groups thatare out there, andto a certain numberof ways in whichwe cando that.What we degree, opposition parties, and those changes can needto do is to be somewhat creative. We have a befa cilitated thatmuch quicker. system that hasin been place for yeam now,civil servants who have a way of thinking in terms of I amnot wantingto take upmuch too timein my dealing with many portions of nonprofit housing, openingremarks, Madam Chaitperson. I am quite preparedto go into the questioning at thispoint. and that line of thinking has to be changed. I believe a vastma jority of the civilservants would Madam Chairperson: At thistime, I would invite support the oftype changesthat arenecessary. theminister 's staffto please enterthe Chamber.

'The ministeransweiS a veryimportant question Mrs.Mcintosh: Madam on, Chaitpers at thispoint in one of the statements that she made. She drew I wouldlike to introduce the staffis that here with the comparison of tenants versushomeowners and me today, beginningwith JimBea ulieu who isthe where Manitoba Housing and the CMHC Deputy Minister of Housing. We have, as well, subsidize, by far, the greatest where there are threesenior stafffrom the Departmentof Housing, tenants. Where there is least amount of public Gary Julius, Ron Fallis, Ken Cassin, who will be dollars going is where individuals own their here to guide and assist me and to provide homes. If we take a look at the philosophical technicaldetails thatmay I nothave at mydisposal debate in terms of how we tryto deliver a service for the critics asthey go into theirquestioning . that is necessary in a most efficient way as I would like to just respond if I may, Madam possible, that we have to be creative in our Chairperson,to thekind comments that both critics thinking in terms of alternatives to some of the put on the record by indicating to them, as well, 4054 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

that I have found that each of these particular Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Madam critics are ones who come forward with serious Chairpe:mon, I want to thank my colleagues for questions andconstructive criticisms. They do not givingme the opportunity to raise a few questions tend to play games with the issues. They are not today on behalfof my constituents. frivolous andtrivial in theirtreatment of the issues. As the minister is aware, we have a numberof I very much appreciate thatand would like to state housing stock in Selkilk operated by the Manitoba that for thereconl, because it is something that has Housing Authority, andI want to raise some issues made our relationship very workable and I think reganling that I want to start off with, of course, for the benefitof thepeople we all tryto serve. theAlfred Apartments. I want toask the ministerif Madam Chairperson: I would remind all she can provide us with some background as to honourable membe:mof the committee thatwe will why that particular apartment was closed and deferdealing with item l.(a) on page 99 of the when it was closed, and when does she anticipate Estimates manual until conclusion of passing of all that apartment block reopening? otheritems. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, I am Mr. Hickes: Madam Chair, could I make a little advised by staffboth that the MHRC and the MHA suggestionhere? Insteadof going lineby line,item have looked into this particular unit and the by item,could we just raisethe issues that we have, problems associated with it and have concluded andthen at theend we could just pass lineby line that the additional dollars required to rehabilitate, andgo rightthrough ? Thatway , insteadof waiting which would come to approximately $66,000 per -I have one colleague that would like to raise unit, does not make it economical to renovate. some questions. I would like togive my colleague Similarnew housing units can be constructed for the floorto raisequestions his andthen pass it on just about $4,000 more each. So, therefore, in to themember forthe secondopposition, andthen 1992, the MHR.C board rejected the tende:m and we will wolk out our questions. I think it would decided to demolish this apartment block speed things up a lot ifwe could because I just contingent on CMHC concurrence, and I am have certain issues that I want to raise. I do not advised that Ottawa has indicated they will be wantto go throughline by line, if thatis okay with responding to that on the approval to demolish everyone. withinabout threeweeks. Madam Chairperson: What is the will of the Mr. Dewar: So according to the minister, the committee? I guess the only consideration would apartmentwill be demolished. Whatplans doesthe be on the minister's behalfin terms of having ministerhave inplace to provide thehousing stock appropriate staffavailable if we arenot going to go that the Alfred apartment block provided to line by line. I do not know if this is the full individuals in the Selkilkcommunity, individuals complement of staffthat she has at her disposal who would require social housing? this afternoon or not I would like to suggest the Mrs.Mcin tosh:Madam Cbairpe:mon, theoriginal committee givethat consideration. thinking onthis issue wasthat new a pro ject would bebuilt , but, of cou:me, thatis not quite asfe asible • (1500} now asit hadbeen the at original time since there Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam ChaiJperson, I have no is no more federal money coming into these difficulty with that if thesecond opposition party projects. Wedo have anindication that the waiting concurs. I think the staff that is here is quite list does not at this time indicate a need for the competentand cap able of answering all questions housing units that are there as of this particular that come ourway if I need some help. So that is point in time. Thereis nowaiting list thatindicates fine. that this particularunit wouldbe required. Madam Chairperson: Is that the will of the Mr. Dewar: Could the ministerprovide me with committee? Agreed. the number of individuals who areon that waiting June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4055

list?-because I get calls to my office allthe time maintenance on the housing complex in the about people requiring social housing, and referI Outhwaite-Sveinson area of Selkirk. I had a them to the Manitoba Housing Authority office in chance tourto the complex recently and metwith Selkirk, and they tell me that there is this long some of the constituents who raised some minor waitinglist. concerns, but I felt that theywere dealt with by the housing staffthat werethere . I would beinterested to find out how long that waiting list is, and why do the individuals who One issue that they did raise is that they do require social housing seem to feel that thislist is recognize and appreciate that there are new quite long? windows being replaced and certain floors are Mrs. Mcintosh: As of the end of March, we had being retiled, but they also raised concerns about sevenpeople looking for senior citizenselderly or the doors andthe poor state that thedoors arein. I persons' housing, and we had 29 waiting for was wonderingwhen can they expect to have those familyhousing, for family units. doors replaced? Mr. Dewar: That is 29 families? Mrs. Mcintosh: I am advised that this particular project is considered a fairly major one, around Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, that is what I aminf ormed. $300,000, and staff here does not have the Mr. Dewar: Andthat is notconsidered a longlist? breakdown on the doors. I will obtain that information for you whenwe finishhere and make Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Cllai:r,I amadvised that, surethat it is madeavailable to you. comparatively speaking, that is not considered a lengthy lisl The Alfred Apartments only had 12 Mr. Dewar: I would appreciate thatinf ormation. units and would not have been able to What is the smoking policy of Manitoba Housing accommodate some of these people in anyevent, Authority in terms of housing units and housing but that apparently is not considered an overly apartmentsthat they manage? lengthy list, that it would not necessitate the • (1510) building of a new unit in that there is an expectation they could be placed within a time Mrs. Mcintosh:The decision as to whetheror not span that would not necessitate the building or a unit willbecome a smokingor anonsmoking unit expensive renovationof the AlfredApartments . would rest with the people who live in the units themselves, much like tenants in a regular Mr. Dewar: I want to thank thefor minister thal apartment building or renting a home as a rule. H theminister would provide me with a complete Some landlords perhaps would have guidelines, list of the housing stock in Selkirlcand their status but most do not. in terms of repairs andmaintenance-if she could provide me with that list at another time perhaps? Mr. Dewar: I was referring to common areas, becausewas there a block in Selkirkthat we had a Mrs. Mcintosh: I would bepleased to do that for bit of a debatefew a weeks ago with whether ornot the member. they could smoke in common areas. I was just Mr. Dewar: Again, because I have constituents wondering what thepolicy is? I could never find who tell me that, this apartment is open. and this that one out. houseis open, yetwe go down to the office, and Mrs. Mcintosh: Sorry, I misunderstood the they tellus there are no housing units available. I original question. By and large, in most of the would just like to be able to tell them, well, this complexes, the common areas willtend to have a one is in this state of repair, and it will become smoking and a nonsmoking area. It is not a available atthis time, just to help clear upsome of hard-and-fast, kick-them-outkind of rule, but it is thoseissues. a practicethat has been followed that therewould The other thingis, I do recognize andte apprecia be one section reserved for those who smoke and the government's efforts to provide some another for thosewho do not. 4056 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Mr. Lamoureux: I want to start off by talking We do have some 50 that are vacant right now about our more heavily subsidized nonprofit because they are undergoing repair of some sort. housing and by asking the question, Manitoba We willalso have some vacancies because people Housing Authority is now responsible for how are looking for a unit in a particular area of town. many units?I guessif shecan also give somesort Maybe they want to live in this particular area, not of indication, how many of those units would be the other, so they arewaiting for the location they elderlyperson units? are seeking to pop up. Those would not be desperate-need ones, obviously, but they are Mrs. Mcintosh: We have about 5,500 elderly; people who are needing to have some assistance about 7,500 family; about 13,000 in total withtheir housing. rent-managed units that we control. They are directly managedby MHA,those ones. Mr. Lamoureux: I just seek, like my attentions Mr. Lamoureux: I know that there has been were to talkabout GilbertPark in a bit, but I know, somewhat of a problem in filling much of the for example, in Gilbert Park, there is-1 do not elderly persons housing because when they were know the actual number, but I believe it is built a number of years ago there was concern somewhere around 60 units. Would the 50 be a expressed in terms of the size of these particular portionof those60 then? When you say50, arewe units, whetherit is the annexon I thinkit isLogan talking like all the 60 from Gilbert Park, for and Keewatin there, the Bluebirds. There are a example, would be a part of the 600 and the 50 would be a part of that? Does that make sense number, Elginand so forth. then? Canthe minister give some sort of indication of the vacancy rate, what both vacancy mtes would Mrs. Mcintosh: Withspecific reference to Gilbert be, theelderly and familythe units? Park, we have 12 to 19, 18 units there that arenot being used. We do not count them as vacant. We Mrs. Mcintosh: We have overall throughout the have mothballed them pending certain things province 8. 7 percent vacancy, and about 900 are going on. Asyou know,we have turned two ofthe vacant seniors or elderly persons units. Of those units into the recreation centre there. It does seem 900,Madam Chairperson, 700 arebachelor suites , at the present time that we are going to be using the very small one-room suites. That is an those in the immediate future, those ones that are interesting problem there youwhich may wantto mothballed, so they are just kind of on hold, but talk about later. We also have about 600 family theyare not showing upon a vacancy list. suites that arenot in use attime. the • (1520) Mr. Lamoureux: I wanted to talkbit a about the bachelor units but before I do, the 600 that are Mr. Lamoureux: Can the minister give us some vacant from the family units, would a majority of sort of indication in tenns of the total number of those be because the units are unavailable to be units that would be mothballed? I know, for rented? Are they in reconditioning of sorts, or example, I believe Churchill a number of years would theyjust besitting idly waitingfor someone ago, when I was the critic, had a number of units to go into them? mothballed. How many nonprofit housing units have we actually mothballed? Mrs.Mcintosh: We have a normal turnover, and those will showvacancies upas wheneverwe sort Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, staff has of photograph the list, if you know what I am justfinished doing a quick calculationas to current saying, andthey may just bevacant for a week or status, andwe believeit to bein theneighbo urhood two while somebody moves out and somebody of 150 unitsthat ntlyare curre mothballed,some of else moves in. They-show up listed asvacancies, whichare ones we willnot beusing again, some of but they are not places that arenot spoken for or which wemay beusing again,but theyare just sort that people are not seekingto live in. of currently being held without being used or June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4057

repaired at the present time. We have 60, for understand and Icould bewrong, in thelate '70s, example, in LeafRapids alone. early '80s, is when these buildings were being erected. Mr. Lamoureux: The MLA from Selkirk had made reference to Selkirk, and there was a I amwondering if the ministercould just give us complex there that was going to be set up for some sort of an indication of what we aredoing to demolition potentially. Are there other units that try to address that particularissue of the bachelor have beenrequested for demolition, andhow many suites. would those be? Mrs. Mcintosh: I thank the member for the Mrs. Mcintosh: As the member knows, I have question becauseit has been on.a frustrati We are indicated just a few moments ago to the member trying something now on a pilot project and we for Selkiik that we are awaiting a decision from think is showing some positive results. The Ottawa on the Selkiiksituation, so those are not member is probably aware, because I have the counted asones that areslated for demolition, but feeling he hassort of followed thisissue, that one we do have others that are.We have five units that of the problems we had iswhen that we talkabout willbe taken down because of fire damage. There people being on a waiting list and vacancies and was a fire. We have 15 others in one complex that type of thing, we have elderly people who where there was a foundation problem. An would like to bein public housing, but they would underground stream had driedguess, up,I and the prefera one-bedroomsuite andso they wait. units kindof fell intoit. The renovations on those Now they are on a waiting list, but there is areextremely expensive. It is meddee thatwe will housing available for themin thefonns of bachelor just take themdown ratherthan try to restorethem . apartments, but they prefer to wait until there is Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, at the one that hasone a bedroom. While they areon a onset, I was hoping to get some sort of an waiting list and they have a need, they are understandingin tenns theof housing units thatare obviously not in dire straits ordesperate in need, available, or shelter units, through Manitoba because the bachelor suites are being rejected by Housing. I appreciate that. I wantto touch briefly them while they wait for something they prefer a on the seniors',elderly persom' units. As it was littlemore. pointed out, 700 of the 900 are, in fact, the What we have done to try and address the bachelorsuites, fairly common vacancy. problem,on a pilot basis, we have four buildings that we are opening, the bachelor suites, making I am wondering ifthe minster could give some thebachelor suites available to nonelderlypersom, sort of indication if the government is doing specifically we are talking about students. We anything to tryto rectifythat particular prob lem, in involved the tenants in these buildings in the particular, specifically, if they are looking at discussion and the decision as to whether or not renovations to try to tumthem into one-bedroom these bachelor suites should be made available to suites, if they are looking at the possibilities of the youngergeneration in aneffort to fillthem up. getting the private sector involved. I know from Therewas some concemexpressed when we were past experiences that there are many different first looking atit. Would the older people wantto volunteer groups, for example, that are out there, have the younger people there? Indeed, what we whetherit isreligious-based organizatiomsuch as have heard said to us and what seems to be the Knights of Columbus, for example, or Lions. happening, it is still in its early stages, is that it There is an amplenumber of organizations, I am does seemto be,if the right personalities are there, sure that are out there, that would possibly be interested in doing something with some of these a goodblend. facilities, because many of those 700 units, no We are trying this on a pilot project in four doubt, are in buildings that are not reallyall that buildingsto seehow it wOiks.If indeed it proves to old, because they were built, from what I be aswolkable as it seems to be starting off, then 4058 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA June 23, 1994

we may haveanother marketfor our bachelorunits would have fallen in under, because I understand that would be very appropriate for the need there were a couple of different funding formulas. addressed, thestudent need,for example, andthen Ifwe cansay 6,000 of them fall under thiswhere have a mixture of people in the building, not just the federal govermnent is putting this amount of elderly butelderly with another age group. money, the provincial government is putting in that sort of money,it would bemost beneficial. If Mr.Lamoureux: Right now, in older to get into a she can just get back to me on that, as I say, unit I believe it is 55. Has ministerthe given any sometime over the summer through thought in terms of lowering that particular age correspondence. other than to students, like dropping it to 50 in older to see ifthere is infact a demandthat would Getting backin terms of thehousing co-ops, as I be facilitated and possibly take some individuals had pointed out earlier and in fact, Madam out of the family units and putting them into the Chairperson, I have introduced resolutions in the more elderly units?Is that feasiblea thing todo? Chamber in the past. In trying to come up with alternative housing than the more traditional • (1530) Manitoba Housing Authority type of housing Mrs.Mcint osh:Madam on, Chairpers yes,to the units,I have oftenbelieved thatwhat we should be member for Inkster, indeed that has been doing is tryingprovide to incentive for individuals considered, in fact, is being done in some of our to get more involved. buildingswhere we arehaving the50-year-old age I wasvery pleased with the minister announcing group coming in as thelimitation. They stillhave that Gilbert Palk is going to be a demonstration to have the income need, of course. It is not just project because that works out quite well in the age for social housing. There stillhas to be aneed sense that it at least allows us now to evaluate for assistancefrom thepublic purse. whether or not it is something that is feasible, I just wantedalso to very quickly respond.You becausethere is a veryhealthy tenants association had in your original question asked about social thatis maturing and takenhas a few years, and no servicegroups andthat type of thingin terms of the doubt it willtake a couple more years yet. This is one bed, in converting a bachelor suite to a thereaso n whythe association itself is saying, look one-bedroom suite. We found for ourselves, asa we do not wantthis thing overnight, we wantto put department, thatmaking that of kind conversionis it over a number of years with the idea of being not going to becost-effective forus in longthe run able to do more things thanjust the traditional if we can fm d suitable tenants. As to having landlord-tenant relationship, of course landlord service clubs either do it or occupy them or being big government, ifyou like. whatever, no, we have not really taken a look at So to tryto shiftsome of thatresponsibility over thatconcept. ButI appreciatethe creative thinking I thinkwould bevery positive, and knowI that the there. minister has made reference, along with myself Mr.Lamoureux: I wantedto move on to housing and representatives from the department and the co-ops and in orderto move on to housing co-ops, tenants association, thatpart of that first year of I wantedto referto GilbertPark, the area in which responsibilities thatwe canlook at issomething in the residents complex is which I represent the neighbourhood of the painting, the grass personally,and to talkin termsof what it isthat the cutting, the cleaning ofunits and some of those residents,many of the residentslive that in Gilbert sorts of responsibilities. I personally look forward

Park,would eventually like to see. to seeinghow that isgoing to transpire.

Just beforeI do that, I wasgoing to askjust more Ultimately, MadamChairperson, what would be so of theminister"'-if shecould takethis notice as nice is to see more of a co-op as opposed to a and get back to me sometime over the summer­ tenant there becoming a resident, if you like, in out of the 13,000units, what funding formulathey whichthere a is senseof ownership.I would argue June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4059

that the operational costs will in fact go down You asked thequestion if United HousingCo-op considerably because you will see more people could be split into two co-operatives. The answer participating, taking more pride in the area in to that is, yes, it could be. which they live which will make it all thatmuch Mr. Lamoureux: I am not saying that this is better not only for the immediate community but ultimatelywhat isgoing to happen,but I have been also the surrounding communities. That was just specifically asked thisquestion in terms of what more so as astatement more thananything else. would be necessary in order to at least start the I did want to ask again on housing co-ops, the process ifin fact some of the residents wanted to numberof housing co-opunits that are actu allyout move that way. there. Also, again thisis more of a question while Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, to the they arelooking forthat particular answer, what is member for Inkster, with his question, if the in place-and again, I have for example United United Housing Co-op people would like to Housing Co-op in my area. In United Housing explore that alternative, I would invite them to Co-op there is the section that is on Old meet with senior staff of the Department of Commonwealth Path, there is also thesection of Housing. They would be pleased to walk them United Housing Co-op that is on, I believe it is, through, should they wish, the steps that would Hargrave, and there has been some concern in need to be undertaken to go through that process terms of some of the residents thatrepresent I who and wotk with them to achieve that ifthat iswhat said, what would we have to do ifwe wanted to theywould liketo see. become a self-sufficient complex in ourselves? In Mr.Lamoureux: The questionfinal with respect otherwords, is it possible todivide the two? to the housing co-ops is more of a question in I know in the past, Madam Chairperson, there terms of what can be done in order to facilitate hasbeen some concernthat without aneducational additionalhousing co-ops, to promote them. Isthe componentto housing co-ops, without a feelingof government doing anything in terms of putting community that everyone that is living in that together or does it have some form of an immediatecommunity is a part ofthe co-op, thatin educational kit? Does it have individuals from factit mightnot necessarilybe in theinterest of the within the department who go out to explain, to co-ops. I even understood that there are some promote? co-ops that potentially end up being nonprofit As Isay, even many individuals who livewithin housing units if in fact they do not become more a co-op do not understandwhat a co-opreally and proactive. tmlyis all about For manyof them, it is justlike I guess I would just askthe minister to comment livingin anap artment.I think the peoplemore that on housing co-ops in general, and ifshe cangive who live inco-ops have anunderstanding of what me some sort of indication if-is it possible for a co-opis all about, the more you aregoing to see United Housing Co-opto beable to besplit ifthey them participating and eventually, hopefully, in so saw necessary in order to ensure thelongevity manycases stay therefor a duration. of theboth orthe one co-op but astwo co-ops. I have the privilege of having Willow Patk, Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, the first whichis the oldest co-opI believe ifnot in Canada, question onthestatistical sideof it, in tenns of the quite possibly North America. We have tenants-! co-operatives, we have about 48 co-operative should not say tenants-residents who have been projects in the province and approximately 3,000 living therefor over 25 years. I thinksorts those of units contained in those 48 projects. They are all residents are fully aware that their interests are incomelevels. Some arepeople in need of housing served quite well living in a co-op, and they get assistance in terms of theirincome , and others are involvedin the boards. not Thatis co-operative living in total. • (1540) 4060 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Isthere aneducational component, whetherit is form of a promotional aspect to it, ifyou like. I through material, whetherit isthrough the support look at theHousing Co-op Council of Manitoba, I of the Manitoba confederation of housing co-ops? believe that isthe actualwording of it, andI have What does the governmentdo to promote it? hadopportunity to meet with them in the past. In Mrs. Mcintosh: There is a branch called the fact, I have even hadopportunity to speak at that Co-op Development branch. It was housed in particular council in the past. I think, when we Consumer and Corporate Affairs, which is why I have councils of this nature, that there is some amfamiliar with it It hasbeen transferred over to benefit for government if you are cutting back on Industry, Trade andTourism aspart of the whole some areas, ifthere issomething residual thatyou development aspect of industry in the province, could give or something that you can do to allow andthey have staff there. I amnot surehow many organizations such as this to pick up where people. I believe it is about seven Co-op government has felt that there was a need for Developmentpeople who go aroundthe province. restraints atthe other end. Their expertise is in the development of Thatis all I hadto say about the co-ops at this co-operatives, andthey areequipped and do advise point. I did want to move on to other forms of people on the things thatthey need to do in terms nonprofithou sing,that being organizations such as of start-up. Kinew Housing. Organizations such as this have Asfor theroach app that taken, is and amI sony done wonders in terms of providing aboriginal I cannot answer this for the member at the people-! believe it is predominantly aboriginal moment, I am not sure if it is a proactive or a people-housing in different areas of the city. I responsive mechanism that theyhave. I believe it thinkthe concept behind it is avery positive one, isprimarily responsive in thatthey willrespond to andI wouldask ministerthe if she could givesome requests andgo out and assistpeople as opposed to sort of indication of how many groups, because I going out and promoting or being proactive and amonly awareof thetwo. You know,maybe there saying, have you ever thought of having a co-op, are others that are,in fact, out there looking at althoughthere may be alittle bit of thatthat comes buying or the purchasing of properties, and does up just throughcircumstances . the Department ofHousing play any role in that purchasing? There is an organization, though, called the HousingCo-op Council of Manitoba, which is not Mrs. Mcintosh: The WHRC, the Winnipeg a government groupper se, although government Housing Rehabilitation, and some urban native is certainly aware of it andinteracts with it andis groupshave purchasedproperty , rehabilitated it in supportiveof thewoik thatthey do. That groupis a thecity ofWmnipeg andin the outlying regions. of people who-or it is composed ofmembem of Mr.Lamoureux: So we would not beplaying any existingco-operatives. Theyare supporta group. I role,then, in Kinew Housing, for example? believe they, justthrough theirsheer existence, if not theirvery diligent efforts, are very helpful in Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes,with KinewHousing, there educating and supporting each other and those was government involvement to the extent that newcomerswho arelooking at co-operatives. that is a native housing group, urban native housing group, andthey were under a cost-sharing It is avery good group, butit isalong the lines of with federal and provincial government monies an ociationass of co-operatives as opposed to a with theirproje cts. We have had some indication governmentinitiati ve. when we were in BathUISt at the recent Housing Mr. Lamoureux: I can recall a few years ago ministers' conference that there will be some when Iwas quite critical of theCo-op Home Start direction-and we aresupportive ofit, depending, Program beinged, cancell because Ifelt that that of course, on what it is-from the federal wasone of the thingswas that being usedin order government towards looking at renewal or to promote new housing co-ops, and it hadsome restructuring of anurban native housing program June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4061

of some kind That is yet to be determined, but it Mr. Lamoureux: Would the 49 incorporate was indicated that there would be some kind of things like Life Lease, thatsort of programming? federal support for that type of initiative. How would those 49 be subsidized ifthey are?

• (1550) Mrs. Mcintosh: MadamChair , I am advised that there arenot reallyUfe Lease components in those Mr. Lamoureux: I do not really know the particularpro jects that have been identified. They current-like ifKioew Housing is a board, for are marlcet rental rates. example, per se . I believe that it was. This urban aboriginal council that would be responsible for We have thefo rmerMi nisterof Housingjoining housing, would that be more of government us in the cheering gallery, and we are pleased to appointments to a board of this nature, or would have himhere. this be strictly something that would be driven Mr. Lamoureux: I amwondering ifthere areany from theprivate sector? other areaswhich maybe I have not touched in Mrs. Mcintosh: I am afraid I am not able to which theDepartment of Housing has ownership provide any details at all, oreven ifit would be a of housing. Like, we made reference to for board structure, just that the fede ral government example theHousing Authority, of 13,000. There has indicated that they have been talking with are housing co-ops of some 3,000uni ts, nonprofit aboriginal leaders in the various provinces, that of 3,689 units, again approximately. We have theyhave been talkingto Housing ministers across made reference to some very limited involvement the nation, about the need to do something in the in Kinew and then there are the 2,200 from the area of urbannative housing. private, but thereis no real ongoing subsidizationI guess, maybe with the possible exception of Theexact fOIDl or nature or size of any funding shelterallowa nces,that might be going intothe 49. allotments towards that type of thing has not yet AmI missing anything else in termsof where the been determined, but the concept has been governmenthas ownership of theproperty? embraced, andit is stillin theinitial stages . Mrs.Mcintosh: Theonly other would be thejoint Mr. Lamoureux: I want, because of time, to venture where we have ownership in theproperty. continue moving on. We have a number of It is a shared ownership, as you know, in joint different organizations, and again I am going to venture project. It is not housing that we are ask for the statistical numbers of units, providing, but we do own, we have joint organizations such as theKnights of Columbus, ownershipthere in termsof the venture becausewe otherunits that are runby nonprofit organizations hadthe land. that aresubsidized withgovernment do llars. Mr. Lamoureux: I was just going to ask for an Can the minister give some sortof indication in example of that before the minister makes terms of, and again I do not need the actual reference to iL Would that be such as the Ladco, number, but an oximateappr numberthat are there MeadowsWest andso forth? throughoutthe province? Mrs. Mcintosh: Indeed, the member is correct. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, for the We talk about the Ladco and Qualico member's information, these figures are developments. approximate, but theyare pretty close. Theymay, in fact, be the absolute accurate ones.have We 54 Mr. Lamoureux: It is almost a shame, Madam sponsoredunits thatwe ownbut that aremanaged Chairperson, thatI have such limitedtime to go on by nonprofit organizations, and they have about Housing. Next year, we will probably have to 3,689 units in them. As well, there are about 49 spend a lot more time on Housing. nonprofit propertiesthat are owned by the service I did wantto ask,now that we have mentioned organization or the nonprofit group. They have Qualico, becauseagain that an is are�as you can about 2,200 units in them. tell, the Department of Housing has a very heavy 4062 LEGISLA11VEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

presencein theriding that I represent, andI amso Mr.Lamoureux: MadamChairperson, I willpass grateful for that participation. Qualico is a those comments on. I know the residents development which is in the riding I represent. It committee would bequite pleasedto hearthat, and actually straddles my areaand the area of the I would imagine even that Ken Mazur [phonetic] memberfor TheMaples (Mr.Kowalski). would likely even be in contact with the department sometime in the future to see how I amwondering if the minister can give any fonn of an update. We have met I believe it was Eric things aregoing on thatparticular pro ject. Vogel [phonetic] from Qualico, who isworlcing on Again, I did make a commitment to pass this some plans. Canthe ministerjust add anything to over in a veryshort periodof time. I thinkhave I the whole package orthe whole deal,maybe what about two minutes left to go. I did want to ask her expectations are or the government's some specific questions with respect to capital. expectations arewith thisparticular deal? There was some concern with respect to Gilbert Parle I must say right at the onset, Madam and the amount that was being looked at to Chairperson, when I had brought this particular budget in for this year for capital repairs. I am issue up with the minister the first time round, wondering if the minister can give some sort of Qualico was most co-operative in terms of indication whatthe latest is on capital for Gilbert Park. facilitating residential input. In fact, we have developed a residents associationwhere we have a Mrs. Mcintosh: Madamon, Chairpers the capital fellow by the nameof Ken Mazur[phonetic] who for '94-95 for Gilbert Parlewill $1be 80,000. is now responsible for area development in the thing. We have even had presentation come out Mr. Lamoureux: Okay. Now, that would be from Qualico, and that might be something in currentlyapproved then from the department so we which theresidents associationmight even askthe would anticipate-is there something that they DepartmentEducation of sometime in the future to have already singled out thatis going to be done come out and take a lookpossibly and answerany withthat $18 0,000. questions that the residents might have. But that Mrs. Mcintosh: Roofing is a concern that they was definitely most beneficialfor thecommunity. planto address.

Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, I want to Mr. Lamoureux: The figure that I have thank thememberfor the comments hemade just continuously beardis one of $3mill ion in orderto before we went to theanswer to thisquestion. bring Gilbert Parleup to an ptableacce standard. I • (1600) amwondering if theminister could give some sort of indication, again, what the long-tenn range of I should indicate that we currently have I.D. capital investment is that the government is Engineering doing a conception plan, whichwe looking atinvesting in Gilbert Park. Thisyear it is willreview thenas Department of Housing people. $180,000. A majority of that will go towards After that bas been reviewed and modified or roofing.Does the government curre ntly have some accepted or whatever is going to be done with it sortof a five-year capitalplan for GilbertParle? afterit hasbeen reviewed, we willthen proceed to put in place a development plan with the City of Mrs.Mcin tosh:Madam on, Chairpers we haveset Wm nipeg, and eachat stepalong theway we will aside some $40,000 at the moment for bemore than pleased to include commentary from predevelopment funding to take a look at local MLAs andinterest groups in the area that developing a three-year plan and that have some desire to make comment or offer predevelopment funding would beto facilitate, try suggestions or things of that nature. I am very to put that together. One of the things that we optimistic thatwe willhave another joint venture would like to do would be to talk to some of the that will be as beneficialfirst asthe one tumingis tenants who live there to see, I mean we would out to be. make the decisions of course, but again, to try to June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4063

identify and prioritize needs. That does not give weeks to tend to that problem. Thank you for you how much will be there two years from now, drawing it to our attention. three years from now at thispoint, but we do have • (1610) predevelopment money set aside to try doand that type of thing. Mr. ffickes: I thankthe minister andher staff for that answer. Also to the same pertaining to, I Just on that, I would like to thankthe member guess, that building and other units, like I for Inkster(Mr. Lamoureux) for the interest he has mentioned earlierin my opening remarks, a lot of shown in GilbertPark. He hasreally worked very theunits have not beenpainted, some for seven to hard to try to bring some of these issues to our 10 years. Will there be an assessment done on attention and has been very helpful in being a prioritizing of some of those units that have not conduit forus to have infonnation going back and seenpaint in that long a time? forth with theresidents there. It has beenhelpful. We do appreciateit. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, we are playing a little bit of catch-up. As you know, the Mr. Lamoureux: Madam Chairperson, the last Manitoba Housing Authority has only been in question I would have is the number of vacant place a little over a yearand a half, between a year units that are there right DOW, if I could actually and a half andtwo years, and so there are some get, if the minister has that ather fingertips, the things that have been waiting and they need number,the actual number, and how many ofthose catch-up.Painting is one. units in fact we would beable to filllet us say over 1best affhave indicated they will check to find next numberof months,just an ximateappro . If the out about the painting in that particular unit and you do not have thosefigures here , you can justget check into whenit might be done, andthey have back to me sometime when you do have them made note of your concern about the length of time available. there. Mrs. Mcintosh: We will get back to themember Just as a matter of interest, it is nothing to do with that infonnation. I do not have it available with really 817 Main Street, but staff have rightnow. presented me with a little statistichere saying that Mr. IDckes: Madam Chairperson, I would just last yearthey spent $1.3 million on painting. So like to ask some questions on some of the issues they have not been neglecting the painting with that I raisedearlier pertaining to 817 MainStreet. thatamount ofmoney being spent. One of thebiggest concerns was that raised when I We do not have a schedule asyet where we say, was meeting with the tenants there was, I you know, we repaint the units every so many mentioned earlier, the possibility of getting the yearsor things of that. nature I thinkonce we have windowswashed. 1bey have not been overwashed them all kind of current again, we could maybe two years and some of the residents were lookat saying, on a rotatingbasis, this is how often expressingsome great concem . 1bey saidthey can we do thesetypes of things. In themeantime, they hardly see out of their windows, and I would like will look into that particular concern you have to askthe ministerthere if is a possibility of getting expressedto seewhat they cando to help. that workdone soon. Mr. IDckes: Madam OJairperson, I would like to Mrs. Mcintosh: I thank the member for the askthe minister if at thesame time, whenthe staff question. The window cleaning has been of Housing is looking atprioritized painting, they contracted out. That particular project on Main would check into or have a look around Lord Street is one of five that are being done by a Selkirk housing? You will seelot a of graffiti on particular firm. Staffhere have indicatedthat they buildings and on those noise barricades and stuff have been made aware of the problem, and they that are there and to see if there is a possibility of will have somebody out probably in about two covering themup. 4064 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Some of the individualsthat spoke I to there also Maybe it would be good to have a community expressed that they bad not badtheir units painted meeting with the residents because since I have for some time. They bad been puttingin a request been elected in 1990and sin cethey have built that to have it done, but nothing came about it so far, if community centre called Turtle Island, it has she could check into that, and the possibility of brought a greatdeal of prideto thecommunity, and whencontracts or bids aretendered out, ifthere is the community has been very active and very a possibility of some of the work being done by involved in their own little community. local residents of the area where, for example, LoniSelkirk, such a high numberof people out of They are doing all kinds of excellent programs jobs andthey arelooking for opportunities, andit for the childrenand for community members and might be away of assisting the local residents in theyare very, very active, and I know theywould painting, and also, in areas I mentioned earlier, like to takemore responsibility, because to a lot of cuttingthe grass possibly and looking at providing theindividuals livingthere , it is reallyfirst the time security services at night to save costs from they seeit asreally theirhome , because they have vandalism. Would the minister hopefully meet everything there. The school isright close andthe withthe tenants or staffto see if optionsthose are friendship centre is only just across the street and possible? frommy experiences in that four years things have really, really changed and changed for the better. Mrs.Mcintosh : Madam Chairperson,indicated I earlierin questioning withthemember forInkster So I welcome that,and I know that the individuals (Mr. Lamoureux) some of the pilot proj ect work living there would really welcome that we aredoing at GilbertPark, andit seemsto me to opportunity. be a fairly similiar-nothing is ever exactly the Sowith thatI would justlike to get back to 817 same of course, but similar-kindof situation and MainStree t, becauseI raisedthe issue ofa parking similarof kind request. lot a whileback. Infact, I raisedit a coupleof years We are just beginning to start on that pilot ago with the former Minister of Housing, and at project atGilbert Park to see ifthat kind of venture that time we were given the commitment that wherewe have tenantsresidents and of the housing parking lot would be built. Then I attended a complexes themselves actually begin to do some meeting,it wasNovember 22, 1993, andwe bada of the property management type work, it is an meeting with some of the residents that were arrangement that hasmerit. Having said that,with representing817 MainStreet and a memberof the that one goingon there, I would likejust to give it staff of the Manitoba Housing Authority. I a little bit of time to seehow it goes. received a letter-! am just really asking the question for clarification herebecause I really do In the meantime they have got some specific not understandwhat happenedthere, because there problems andthey have a general direction and a was a motion that was passed to acquire the land thrustthey would liketo go in LoidSelkirk, andI acquisition at 817 Main Street for additional would be verypleased if you wish to accompany them and bring them to see me. I would be very parking. pleased to sit down with them and talkabout the The motion requested that the Manitoba typesof things thatmight be possible down theline Housing Renewal Corporation, subject to to do and also to address some of these specific reasonable cost, purchase the necessary property problems you have identified they are from the City of Winnipeg to add the additional experiencing,if you would likedo to that once the parking stalls at 817 Main Street Since then I do Houseis out and we areback into a nonnalroutine. not understand what happened, but now in our Mr. Hickes: I thank the minister for that, and I discussions brieflyin passingthere is talkof using willcontact her theafter on sessi to see ifwe could additional lots thatalready belong to theprovince worksomething out. for a parking lot. I would just like to ask the June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4065

minister what happened to the so-called deal the whole series of associated costs involved with provincehad with the City of Winnipeg. opening thatlane that would have totalled upin the $40,000to $45,000 range. Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, you are correctin thatletter the that wassent andthe initial As for the second part of your question, when discussions that were taking place did involve the will it be built, We are dingprocee now, getting lane way behind and striking an gementarran with .. approval from the city to put in that kindof usage the cityand so on. Twofactors , well, actually three on the lot, and the minute we get that, we will be factors enter into this. One isthat thelane itself, if proceeding.If everything falls in place the way we we took the lane over, would not be sufficient in hope it will, andwe cannever guarantee that, I am itselfin teuns of space.The city wasasking a price always really nervous about saying, we will have it for the laneas well, and those were twofactors : (a) done by this time orthat time, butwe would be not it was really not adequate land to begin with; and unsmprisedif it would be up and running by the (b) the cost was not something we were excited fall. Let us put it that way. about. The fathird ctor isthat we also own a lot 33 Mr. Dickes: I thank the minister for that very feet to the south on Main Street, and it is of positive answer. sufficientsize we that could getmore vehicles on it than we could behind the building even with the I would just like to move on to a meeting, the lane way. So we met with the tenants and annualmeeting they had,or annualconvention that discussed it, and they expressed a preference for MAUM had-1 thinkit was inBrandon. Therewas having thatlot. a resolution that was put forward pertaining to local housing boardsand the resolutionreads: • (1620) WHEREAS thecommunities in ruralManitoba It is only 33 feet, which is not very far; it is are experiencing a major problem from the bigger. We aregoing to have it well lightedso and dismantling oflocal housing boards; and on. We are needing tomake arrang ementswith the city. We own theland. MHRC owns theland, but WHEREASmaintenance the program related to just in teuns of making sure that that use for the social housing isdeteriorating because of reduced land istable accep and it is rightall to do it, and if fundingand creation of central administration; we cando that, that is thepreferred option of the THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the tenants. It is now our preferred option as well. If Manitoba Association of Urban Municipalities the city chooses to put a laneway in behind the requests theMinister of Housingto re-establishthe building now, they can do that, but we will not localhousing boardand provide adequate funding have anythingto do withthat . andauthority. Mr. Dickes: Madam Chairperson, my understanding wasthat thecity wasgoing to sell Have there been any discussions with MAUM, the property for $1. That would have been agood and if there have, is the minister looking at this deal if you could purchasethat kind offor land $1. option? I guessjust to speed things up a little bit in the Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, we met same question, I would just like to ask: With the withMAUM last week, I believe it was-recently. alternative parking lot that is being looked at, They expressed to us formally theresolution that when will thatbuilt? be theyhad passed at theirconvention. I have given Mrs. Mcintosh: In answer to the member's the following response, and I willjust shareit with question, the total cost of opening that laneway to the member so he knows the dialogue that has the government was going to have been $45,000. goneon there. Now it may have been, I am not quite sure how it The existence of 98 housing authorities was a is allbroken down, but it may have been thatthe relatively expensive undenaking as well as actual land itself would be $1, but there were a cumbersome in terms of the duplication of 4066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

services, theoverlapping of services anddeliv ery. is one, the root of the concern, by putting in We had differences in the oftypes decisions being methods we think will help us to retain the made, the types of pressures that were being cost-effectiveness andthe consistency and all of listened to. So consistency we felt could be the things that go with the big authority and make improved by centralizing, which we have done. sure their concern that local needs are not overlookedor addressedin otherways. Otherprovinces have done the same thing. In fact, the federal government is now encouraging • (1630) jurisdictions across Canada where they have Justso you get a senseof placeswhere theMHA multiplicity of housing authorities to try to bring Board committees have been, to show you how them down to achieve some sort of consistency they are trying to cover the province and stay in and cost-effe ctiveness by reducing the vast touch with local people, they have beento Swan numbers. So we have done that. River, The Pas, Churchill, Brandon, Souris, 1berationale behindthe MAUM resolution was Morris, Wmk ler, Altona, Beausejour, Selkirk and that they were concerned about losing local input. Portage Ia Prairie to this point 1bey have really They were concerned about the possibility that just sort of started this outreach not that terribly regional concerns might be overlooked, and so long ago. what we have doneto tryto addressthat concernis we have made certainthe that Manitoba Housing 1batis the response we gave to MAUM . Authority has about 19 members on it, and that Mr. Hickes: Madam Chair, I would just like to theyrepresent variousregions around the province move on to follow up on some of the questions the so that no area is missed in terms of having member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) was raising someone on it who comes fromthat area,either a aboutmothb allingunits. I wouldjust like to raisea community or its surrounding area.There are 15 question on some of the units that I imagine are members actually, my deputy advises me, who mothballed in the community of Churchill.1bere come fromthe various regions of Manitoba. is a particularbuilding the rethey used to refer to as Aswell, in aproactive way, theMHA has made the zoo. It is onFranklin Street I amsomeone sure a conscious decision to begin going out to the from your staffwould know which building I am various regions. Recently, they were out in I referringto. believe it was Beausejour. They took the With the positive potential of the spaceport committees that were dealing with specific taking off, there is going to be a real shortage of problems rightout to thatarea notifiedand people housing units inthat community. I had callsfrom well ahead of time they were coming andinvited individuals from Cllurchillexpressing concern that community representatives to come in and make if the spaceport takes off it could create a presentations directly to the committee, without construction phase. They are looking at creating those residents having to drive into Wm nipeg or anywhere from to300 400jobs. 1bey arelooking very faraway. at the possibilityof a real housing shortage there. 1bey are also startingcommunications and will 1batone apartment buildin g waspointed out to me bewith the MAUMassociation itself. So I think it as apossibility of single people going up to wolk is basicallya questionof communications, concern beingable to behoused there. thatthe regions not be kindof swallowedup in this Other units-have there been any discussions big entitythat is thenew MHA . with the community of Churchill through the We are not goingto beaddressing theirconcern mayor-in-council and also with people that are by disbanding the MHA and re-establishing 98 involved with the spaceport to see if some regional housing authorities. We are,though, long-range planning cancome into play and try going to tryto get at theroot of theproblem ifthere andfix up or freeup some of thehousing units for June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4067

hopefully construction workers coming into that Mr. Dickes: Madam Chairperson, the question community? was the whole question of fairness. That is all peoplewere asking for, wasfairness , for the ability Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Olairperson, we have a to benotified, the ability to bid. They did not get a vacant apartment building in Churchill called fine as longthey as had theability to put theirbids Tamarack Apartments. Mr. Julius of my in. So I thankthe ministerfor herquick response to department, GaryJulius , who ishere with us today, that issue that was raised in the community of has been in communication with the AKJUIT Churchill. people, spaceport people about the possibility of I would just like to move on into thewhole area thatbuilding being acquired by them. That is still of the rentalincrease, because the units that people in initialdiscussions . Aswell, thedeputy andother are renting from, if they were not one-bedroom senior staff willgoing be upto Churchillsometime units, therent has been in creased to 27 percent.My early in July, and they will be meeting with the understanding from the minister's response in LGD up there to talk about this amongst other Question Period was because, under CMHC, who issues thataffect housing and community.that funded 75 pe:rcent of the cost for each unit, there Mr. Dickes: Madam Chairperson, I thank the was arequest to reduce it to 70 pe:rcent. So if that minister forthat answer because it looks like you request wasdriven by the government,federal you are one step ahead of what is happening there. I are looking at a 30 pe:rcent difference in actual hope it will all be positive for the community, cost So I guess the questionI would like to raise because there is a real need for employment with the minister is, if the contribution of the opportunitiesin thatcommunity. federalgovernment is beingreduced to 30 pe:rcent, eventuallywill rentsthe per unit be increased to 30 I would like tojust clear up a few questions in percent?Has doneshe any thinkingon that? my own mindpertaining to anissue thatwe dealt Mrs.Mcintosh : Ifthe member couldindulge me, with awhile back. That was to the tendering of I wonder if he couldrestate hisquestion. I amnot contracts from the housing authority for the quite certain, the littlelast bit thathe askedwe did community of Olurchill.reason The I raisethat is not quite catch it, and I would appreciate it being thatI receiveda lot of calls becausepeople the in restated. that community were very upset about what was happening there. I know that the minister acted Mr. Dickes: 1be question I was asking was: In very quickly on it. Question Period the response I received from the Minister of Housing at that time was the increase What took place there and how will that be in rent from 25 percent to 27 pe:rcent was because prevented from happening again? That is a of a directive that CMHC under the federal question I would like to ask. government wasreducing theircontribution from 75 pe:rcent to70 pe:rcenl If that is the case, Mrs.Mcintosh: Madam rson, Chaiipe with regard then there is a difference of 30 percent. So is the to that question, I know the member was ministerconsidering orlooking at the possibility of concerned about that and had expressed concem raising somewhere in the future the 27 pe:rcent to about it earlier. Staff has been up to Churchill. 30 pe:rcent tocover thatnce? differe Theyhave just come backas of late lastweek, and they have set up a standard tendering procedure • (1640) now which willly app to allcontracts going out in Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, there are that areaso there will beconsistency across the two issues here really. The federal government board. Hopefully, all those involved will sense a shares in the loss on public housing rentsubsidi es. fairness andequity of treatment in the way the The area where they have eliminated the 75 ability to acquire work, the message has been put percent funding was in the area of new housing out from ourdepartment. costs, and doI recallthe day thatgave I my answer 4068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

therewere two goingthings on atonce, and neverI housing initiatives, which we cannot get from the got to complete the answer. I bad wonderedifl had feds in other ways. left an impression that the two issues were one when I did not have a chance to explain they were I do not know ifthat completely answers your distinct. question, because we have not made a decision that we aregoing to go past 27 percent. We have 1be 75 percent thatthe federal government bas made thedecision we willgo to 27 percent, but we ceasedpaying is theirshare of newsocial housing have not made a decision or we have not made a capital costs, and isthat one issue. Because of that, commitment to do anything more than that. We then, it becomes very important thatwe maintain have just said that much. andimprove our existing housing stock for rental Mr. Hickes: purposes as well as ensuring that any money that Madam Chairperson, so I guess just we can generate or save from ourrental units be to clarify in my own mind, the increase to 27 percent, next year the federal government will acquired because the federal government at the reduce their contribution by 1 percent, so ifthe same time had said, we arenot going to give you provincial government doesnot increase their rent 75 percent anymore tobuild new units, but if you to 28 percent, then the province will have to pick can be cost-effective, raise andsave money, you up thatpercent 1 lossby the federal government. Is be allowed to spend it on new housing will that how it willbe? initiatives. Hence, and wasI goingto readto you from a letterthe federalminister sent me, thereis a Mrs. Mcintosh: The federal government on the lot here,but then I justwill read the lines that are RGI is not reducing its percentage, but what they pertinent. arerequesting is that theprovinces begin to move up which thereby decreases their dollar He talks about the preferred option being to contribution. It is sort of a backdoor way of increase thefed eral scale by 1 percent a yearup to accomplishing something. The net effect is the a maximum of 30 percent federally. He bas also same.It is the same impact, but it is- encouraged the ministers across the country to begin moving their-and I thought I had a letter Mr. Hickes: Somebody hasto pick it up. here; yes, it is the same letter-to begin moving Mrs. Mcintosh: Yes, because if they reduce theirRGI up. We have seen numbera of provinces percentage and-[interjection] Yes, I think you already move to 30 percent; indeed, some are understandwhat I amsaying here. already there. British Columbia and New Brunswick have already reached the 30 percent. Mr. Hickes: I just have onebrief question and Ontario is moving to 30 percent, one percentage then I guess we will be switching to Home point a year, andAlberta, Nova Scotia andPrince Renovation Program. I would just like to ask the EdwardIsland are going to 30 percentat different minister-! have a few questions on the rates. Emergency Home Repair Program. Would it be appropriate to raisethose in Renovation Program, We went to 26 percent last year andsaid, well, or would it be ropriateapp to raisenow? them we would go to 27 percentthis year, and wethen Mcintosh: will decide what we will do. I think there are a Mrs. Madamrson, Chai.J:pe you cando couple of other provinces that aredoing the same it here isif that appropriate. thing. They have raised it up a percentage point, Mr. Hickes: 1beone questionI wantedto raiseis and they are sort of going to assess, and sit and the whole aspect of aboriginal self-government. wait and see what happens, in case thereis some We know that there is a will by the federal other action, but the general trend across the governmentand also undera Manitoba taskforce country is, as you have asked, to go to that 30 we implemented the inherent right to percent. The pressure is that monies that we self-government.So, whenthat comes about, there acquirethat waymay thenbe allowed togo to new is going to be ashifting of a lot of responsibilities June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4069

from the federal, provincial to aboriginal Some of these concepts arein the birth stages in organizations. terms of what kind of transfer responsibility for assumingthe public housing needsof First Nations One of the biggest issues that comes to mind is and aboriginal peoples, and as yet there has been in the whole area of housing. When I look at no definitive plancome forward. housing, I am talking about the urban areas, the Metis communities, the Inuit people because the What has come forward, however, is a strong federal governmentdoes have theresponsibility on indication that the federal government supports reserve housing, but what will happen to the thisthrust andintends to move in thisdirection. In nontreatypeople becauseunder self-government it order to do that, the federal government willneed includes all aboriginal people? That is Metis the co-operation of the provinces and the people, Inuit people, non-Status, plus the treaty teuitories. Theprovinces and the teuitories were people. allthere at that meeting. The teuitories have a very strong interest in this particular topic. You are Has the government been in any negotiations probably morefamil iarthan I am with ofsome the with those organizations that represent the housing problems that occur upin our northern nontreaty, the Inuit and the Metis, and are there regions. discussions onlooking at the possibility of turning over or giving theresponsibility for housing units So those discussions arejust beginning, and to or the whole idea of trying to develop adequate bequite honest withyou, I donot know where they are going to lead us. The issue hasbeen identified, housing that is inneeded a lot of theunities comm theconcern you express isbeing looked at, but no of our Northern Affairs communities and urban definitive plan hasemerged yet from that concept. areas? Mr. Dickes: Madam Chairperson, I would just Mrs.Mcintosh: It is a very goodquestion. It is a liketo, I guess, moreunder the Emergency Home very timely question because the issue is really Repair Program,make a fewstatements. I willsee. gainingal otof interest acrossthe country. I am not sure if Ieven have a question here, but • (1650) underthe Emergency Home Repair Program, out of $400,000, there is a reduction of $370,000, The Manitoba Metis Federation does do some which leaves very little under the Emergency property management for public housing in rural Home Repair Program. Manitoba for thejoint partnership, and knowI that the Minister of Native and Northern Affairs (Mr. WhenI raisedissue, this the Minister of Finance Praznik) has discussions-! am not privy to the (Mr. Stefanson)said, well, they willable be to get exact natureof allthose discussions-on the whole it through a loan program where 60 percent is area of self-government with various interest forgivable and the individuals willhave to pay 40 groupsthat meets he with and to.talks percentof thecost back. Whenwe were at therecent Housing ministers' Under the Emergency Home Repair Program, conference in Bathurst, as I mentioned earlier, the that isfor individuals who do not have the means federal government had indicated an intention to to meetemergencies andfor governments to tryto proceed in terms of transferring responsibility, makesure the individuals have theoption of living amongst other things, for their own housing to in their own homes for a much longer period of aboriginalpeoples. We did talkabout, what do you time. So whenyou lookat theindividuals who use mean by aboriginal peoples, for starters, what do the program, you willlook atvery poor people and you meanby self-government?What do you mean a lot of theelderly people. by transferring responsibility, because there are The big concern I have here is the 40 percent First Nationspeoples on reserve,as youmentioned that is required to be paid back as a loan. The thevarious categoriesin your question. reason individuals applied for the Emergency 4070 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

Home Repair Programthe in past is because they charged interest. So what we said wasthis. We will did not have the income. So now when they are give them $3,000;if theyhave a problem andthey required to pay 40 percent of that cost, where is needmoney right away, here is$3,000. Take it, do that income going to come from? your repair. You have 10 years to return that If theycann ot meet that 40 percent income, what moneyto us. We willnot charge you anyint erest. normally happens is the bill is turned over to a We will have the Home Renovation Program. collection agency to try to recover it. The We willgive you anup-front grant of 40 percentof individuals who do not have it cannot accessthat that, up to $1,000,so thereis apossibility that you kind of a program, or ifthey do, then ifthey are could get $1,000 of that as a grant, or that you being chased down by collection agencies, then couldpay back just the remaining. The40 percent what happens is their name is forwarded to the would befor freebut you would not have to spend Credit Bureau. So even ifthey try to get a $100 $5,000 to get the grant. But we would also help loanto replace a fridge or a stove, or what little that individual set up a system of payments, set up loan they need,right away that will stopped.be So a schedule for repayment. thatis the realhave concern I . If the individual is having any difficulty, we I personally believe it is a mistake, and I hope estimate it would be, on $3,000, say, $20 orso a thatthe minister will look at it seriouslyand look at month, $15 or $20 a month ifthey borrowed the the concern that I raised. I just do not see it as maximum and took 10 years to pay it back. We being well thought out, now that Ihave had more would help them set upthe schedule of payments. timeto thinkabout it Ifthey werehaving difficulty we would call them I would just liketo ask ministerthe if she would in and totry help themfind way a to repay us and look at the possibility of reconsidering the cuts to waive, we have the ability to waive thatrepayment the Emergency Home Repair Program, maybe for a short period of time to help them get their reducing it to some amount, but at leastmaking it financing andbudgeting in order. available so that individuals still have access to We believe it willgive us opportunity to service 100percent of emergency home repair funds. more people. We believe that, having tested the Mrs. Mcintosh: I thank the member for his incomes as we do for this type of program, that concerns,and Iappreciate why he is concerned. I there would be the ability to repay ifthere was a would just like to give some information that longenough period of timeand interest.no We are might help alleviate his concerns somewhat The juststarting this aspecttell andtimewill if we are point he makes may have some application in right or if your concerns are valid. I hope your certain cases. What we are experiencing though concernsare invalid, andwe willlook to seehow it andwhat we believe willhappen, in our desire to wolks. be able tocontinue tohave money foremergency home repairs astimes get tighter and tighter, the Mr. Dickes: As far as the Housing Estimates, concern about thedirect grant was thatnot wemay except for the Home Renovation Program, we always have the money available for those who have askedall the questions we will be asking, so need it in emergency times. When we had the should we go throughand passHousing Estimates flooding and everything last go-round, we had to andleave Home Renovations Program, because if keep going back to Treasury Board for more and it is possible at five o'clock to ask leave of the more money to make sure we could cover House if we could not watch the clock for 10 everybody. So how could we make surewe have minutes andthen we will be all finished with money therefor people? Housing Estimates, and waythat you do not have to bring your staffback on Monday, if we could We knew there were people, the majority of askleave of the House to do that. them, in fact, who could affordto pay us back if theywere . given a long enough time and werenot June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4071

Madam Chairperson: The hourbeing 5 p.m., and This section of the Committee of Supply will time for private members' hour, committee rise. continue to deal with the Estimates for the Call in the Speaker. Department ofHousing. Would the minister'sstaff INSESSION please enter the Chamber. Mr. Speaker: The hour being 5 p.m., time for Mr. George Dickes (Point Douglas): Madam PrivateMembers ' Business. Chairperson, I just have a few questions on the Home Renovation Program. I would just like to Bon. Jim Ernst (Government House Leader): make a very brief statement. Under the Home Mr. Speaker, I wonder if there is leave of the Renovation Program my understanding is you House for 15 minutes, let us say, to continue in have to spend$5, 000to get $1,000back, andyou Committee of Supplyto complete the Estimatesof have to spend that $5,000 up front andthen you the Department ofHousing, following which we would get the $1,000 back. When I look at my could then resume private members' hour. 1ben constituency of Point Douglas and alot of the that would leave 45 minutes. So it would not be northern communities,I findit verydiffi cult where private members' hour. It would be private people would come up with $5,000up frontto do members' 45 minutes. We would still adj ourn at repairs in their own homes to get the $1,000 back. sixo'c lock That isone of the biggest concernsI have about the Mr. Speaker: Oh, yes, there isno problem there. program. So I would just like to askthe minister, how many people have taken out applications for Isthere leave of the House toextend Committee the Home Renovation Program up to today? of Supply for approximately 15 minutes to deal with and, I understand, to finish with the Bon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Housing): Department of Housing? Thatis what we are Madam Chairperson, we have had over 10,000 doing, simply the Department of Housing. Would callsso far. We have sent out9,788 applications to there beleave for that? [agreed] homeowners. Those, of course, have not all been returnedto us. 1bere have beeninquirie s, and we Now then, isthere leave to allow thehonourable have said, well, we will send you anapplication; government House leader at this time to you cantake a look and see. reintroduce the motion to go back into Supply? [agreed] Those are now starting to come back in. We Mr. Ernst:I move, Mr.Speaker, seconded bythe have had 226 received so far, and we have Minister of Culture,Heritage and Citizenship(Mr. about-well, I guess,of those226, those are now Gilleshammer),that Mr. Speakerdo now leave the in the process of being approved or preapproved Chair Houseand the resolveitself into a committee andpeople are being notified asto whether ornot to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her theirapp lication hasbeen eligible.seen Inspectors Majesty. aregoing out to see theproperties andso on. Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself Mr. Dickes: Of those 226 applications that have into a committee to consider of the Supply to be beenreceived, could theminister tell me what part granted to Her Majesty with the honourable of thecity most of those arecoming from? member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Mrs. Mcintosh: I do not have the breakdown on Chairfor theDepartment of Housing. that,but my understandingis, as of abouta weekto 10 days ago, that the majority of the requests for CO�E OF SUPPLY application were coming in 60 percent city, 40 HOUSING percent rural. I do not have that complete breakdown here. Madam Chairperson (Louise Dacquay): Order, please.Will the Committee of Supplyplease come Mr. Dickes: Madam Chair, the question I was to older. raisingwas out of the 226 applications that have 4072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

been received, where are most of those peopleat thispoint is not known, nor have we said, applications coming from? Are they coming from only so manypeople can receive a rebate. what part of the city, or arethey mostly rural? Mr. Lamoureux: MadamChaitperson, I amvery Mrs. Mcintosh: I do not have that information cognizant of the fact that we did make a here, but I could findthat out for you andlet you commitmentto pass thisdepartment What I would know. I amnot surewhich areasof the city theyare ask the minister, maybe if she could get back to coming in from, but that information will be me, preferably soon. When I say soon, before the coming out in the form of statistics asthe program weekend would benice. proceeds. What I am interested in knowing is the staffing I will inquire of staff and make sure that complement, the administrative costs of this informationgets to you. particular program and alsoin terms of whatthe govemment'sintentions arewith the advertising of Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): I, too, would this program. As the minister made reference to, also beinterested in that information. I notice the we have had 10,000phone calls, 9,780 applicants. ministermakes reference to 226. I believe thatyou If 10 percent of those materialize, the program is are going to be approving 1,000 applicants in almost at capacity at thaL If the minister can get total? back to me with respect to advertising, the costs of the particular program and possibly even the Mrs. Mcintosh: The program has a $10 million individuals who are administering. Are these allotment, and householdeach will permitted,be if appointments to people who have been brought on theyhave spentover the $5, 000, agrant of $1,000. with the Department of Housing, or is this just Ifthey are on one of the other twoprograms, the internalstaff? Emergency Home Repairor the RRAP program, they would be receiving asmaller percentage • (1710) because thosetwo categories will get 40 percent Mrs. Mcintosh: Just for clarification, certainly I of-they arethe low-income tested renovation and wouldbe pleased-maybe we could evensit down rep airs. andgo throughsome of this, youif have time,and I imagine they will not be in as plentiful a have some staff and just go through your numberas the jority,ma which willall be receiving questions. I would bepleased to do that. But just the full $1,000 back because they have spent for clarification, we have not received 9,788 $5,000. Sowe arelooking at 9,000 to 10,000 that applications. We have sentout that many. We have couldpossibly bereceived and paidouL We do not had 226 come back in. So we have only received know exactly how many aregoing to comeback. 226 bonafide, thiswhat is I have done,may I have We are seeing that many going out in terms of approval of my renovation, typeapplication. informationrequests. We have had expression of interest in finding Mr. Lamoureux: I guesswe arelooking atthen a out if theydo fit from nearly 10,000. minimumof a thousandindividuals whowould be Mr. Lamoureux: Finally, Madam Chairperson, actually successfulin receiving some monies from yes, I would appreciate that infoiDlation, and if I thisparticular program. No? did make that mistake by saying 9,700coming in, I meant9, 700 going out in teiDls ofapp lications. If Mrs.Mcintosh: Ifan individual meets the criteria thereare any furtherquestions on this,I might be in the application, if they submit invoices that inclined to ask it during the concurrence. So we show they have spent up to $5,000 on some willjust leave it at that. youThank very much, and approved renovation andif an inspectionof their we areprepared to passeverything. property shows that everything has been done according to rules, then they would be eligible to Mr. Dickes: I have one very brief question. I receive back a thousand dollars. The number of would just like to encowage the minister and her June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4073

staff, under this Home Renovation Program, that Support, for the fiscal year ending the31s t day of they make sure thatthere aremeasures in place to March, 1995. protect the public fromfly-by-night operators,and I hope there are strong measures in place. With 3. The Manitoba Housing and Renewal that, we are prepared to pass, or I amprepared to Corporation (a) Transfer Payments $34,899,200 pass the Estimates ofHousing. I would like to take -pass. thisortunity opp to thankminister the and her very 3.(b) Grants andSubsidies $6,436,300-pass. capable staffproviding in good, direct answers to us. Thankyou very much. 3.(c) Emergency Home Repair Program Mrs. Mcintosh: Madam Chairperson, I have just $30,000-pass. one concluding statement on my part. Any Resolution 30.3: RESOLVBD that there be questions that either of my critics feel they have granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding not had chancea to answerhere I would bepleased $41,365,500 for Housing, The Manitoba Housing to answerat amutu allyconvenient time in the near and Renewal Corporation, for the fiscal year future. ending the31 st day of March, 1995. I, too, would like to thank both of them for a very positive experience in terms of constructive I.( a) Minister'sSalary $1 0,300--pass. criticism. I wish we could see more constructive Resolution 30.1: RESOLVBD that there be criticism in theHouse. I amvery lucky,I happento granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding have two who have been able to do that. I $4,097,700 for Housing, Administration and appreciate IiL appreciateit very much.Thank you. Finance, for the fiscal year ending the31s t day of Madam Chairperson: Item l.(b) Executive March,1995. Support (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits Resolution 27.7: RESOLVED that there be $354,600-pass; (2) Other Expenditures granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $85,200-pass. $10,000,000 for Other Appropriations, Home l.(c) Finance and Operations (1) Salaries and RenovationProgram, for the yearfiscal ending the

Employee Benefits $2,393,300-pass; (2) Other 31st day of March, 1995. Expenditures$1 ,254,300-pass. Thisconcludes the Estimates for theDepartment 2. Housing Program Support (a) Administration of Housing. (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $146,500 -pass; (2) OtherExpenditures $30,200--pass. INSESSION 2.(b) Research and Planning (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $345,800-pass; (2) Other Committee Report Expenditures $64,500-pass. Mr. Speaker: Thehour being after 5 p.m. 2.(c) Project Management (1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $618,600-pass; (2) Other Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Chairperson of Expenditures $141,500-pass. Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply hasadopted certain resolutions, directs me 2.(d) Client Services (1) Salariesand Employee to reportthe same and leaveasks tosit again. Benefits $827,700--pass; (2) Other Expenditures $357,700-pass. I move, secondedby thehonourable memberfor Sturgeon Creek(Mr. McAlpine), that thereport of Resolution 30.2: RESOLVBD that there be the committee bereceived. granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $2,532,500 for Housing, Housing Program Motionagreed to. 4074 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

PRIVATE MEMBERS' BUSINESS Mr. Speaker: Is theHouse readyfor thequestion? DEBATE ON SECOND Thequestion before the House issecond reading of READINGs-PUBLIC BU..LS Bill 206, The Coat of Arms, Emblems and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act. Is it the Bill 205-The Child and Family Services pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Amendment Act [agreed] Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourablemember for Burrows (Mr.Martindal e), SECOND READINGs-PUBLIC BU..LS Bill 205, The Child and Family Services Mr. Speaker: Are we proceeding with Bill 207 Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur les (TheWotkers CompensationAmendment Act; Loi services a !'enfant et a Ia famille), standing in the modifiantIa Loi surles accidents du ttavail)? No. nameof thehonourable member for Niakwa (Mr. Reimer). Stand? Are we proceeding with Bill 210 (The AnHonourable Member: Stand. Prescription Drugs Cost Assistance Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur 1'aide a 1'a chat de Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter m�dicamentssur ordonnance )? No. remainstanding? [a greed] Are we proceeding with Bill 211 (An Act to Bill 206-The Coat of Arms,Emblems and the amend An Act to Protect the Health of ManitobaTartan Am endment Act Non-Smokers; Loi modifiant Ia Loi sur Ia Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the protection de Iasant.S des non-fumeurs)?No. honourable member for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine),Bill 206,The Coat of Arms,Emblems PROPOSED RESOLUTIONS and the Manitoba Tartan Amendment Act (Loi Res.22-- Action onRacism modifiantIa Loi surles annoiries, les embl�meset le tartandu Manitoba), standing in thename of the Ms. Becky Barrett (WeDington): Mr. Speaker, I honourable memberfor Inkster. move, seconded by theember m for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), that Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the Ubera1 caucus, it is a great WHEREAS Manitoba's development has pleasure for me to stand and say that we do not always beentied to immigration and the fostering have any problems with this bill. In makes April of cultural diversity; and the 6th Manitoba TartanDay , and it has already WHEREASon discriminati on the basis of race been declared Tartan Day nationally to the credit or cultural backgroundhas occurred continues and of accomplishments of manyindividuals. to occurin Manitoba; and I do not thinkanyone here would question the contributionthat people the of theScottish heritage WHEREAS tackling the problem of racism have made to Manitoba and,indee d, contributedto should start earlyat an age in theschools; and Manitoba's rich cultural diversity. Indeed, the WHEREAS ongoing discrimination results in Scottish people were among the first European high unemployment, disparate representation in settlers in Manitoba when Lord Selkirk anived entry and lowerlevel jobs, and poorjob retention with the first group of settlers in 1811. The for affectedgroups; and descendants of this first group continue to contribute to the success and vitality of our WHEREAS the workforce must reflect the province today. makeup of thelarger community; and I am happy to stand and support thisparticular WHEREAS people experience racism in every bill andits passage to thecommittee atthis point in sector of society, from the legal system to the time. educational systemto thehealth system; and June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4075

WHEREAS continuing racist attitudes in our Motionpres ented. society have a severe economic and social cost; Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, this is a long and resolution. I think it is important that it wasthe WHEREAS the provincial government has length that it was. This is an issue that taken no substantive action on the encompasses virtually every section and segment recommendations in its own report, "Combatting of our society, not just for people who are of a Racism in Manitoba," produced by the Manitoba different racial group than other people in our Intercultural Council andtabled in October 1990. society, but foreveryone.

• (1720) Racism hurts everyone. I believe that the WHEREASes in this resolution speak to the THEREFORE BE IT RESOLVED that the negative impacts of racism,on theunemployment Legislative Assembly of Manitoba urge the situation, in the workforce, in the health care government to consider providing cross cultural system, in the education system and the severe and antiracism programs in every school in social andeconomic costs of racism. Manitoba, asrecommended in the 1990 Manitoba Intercultural CouncilReport, "Combatting Racism I actually thinkthat there is not a memberin this in Manitoba;" and Legislature who does notunderstand that, I really believe. I also believe thatit is essentialthat we not BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this only understand that and pay lip service to the Assembly urge the provincial government to ideas expressed in the WHEREASes in this consider delivering cross cultural and antiracism resolution but that we also seriously consider the programs, both as a component of initial training recommendations that were put forward in the andas apart ofthe ongoing in-service training, for 1990 Manitoba Intercultural Council Report child care workers, people who workwith seniOis, combatting racismin Manitoba. recreation workers, income security and health care professionals, as well as personnel in the The Manitoba Intercultural Council was at the justice system, as recommended in the 1990 time of this report an arm's-length association Manitoba Intercultural Council Report, representing over 400 groups in the province of "CombattingRacism in Manitoba"; and Manitoba. They represented the full spectrumof the communities and groups that have made BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this Manitoba the strong cultural and multicultural Assembly urge the provincial government to province thatit is. consider producingand disuibuting a pamphlet in a range of languages, detailing the laws and Theynot only representedthose 400 groups , but penalties relating to racist incidents and theywere able, because theyhad fromfunding the discrimination, as recommended in the 1990 province of Manitoba at that time, to produce Manitoba Intercultural Council Report, recommendations. They were able to produce "Combatting Racism in Manitoba"; and documentsthat looked at issues suchas racism.

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that this I would like,Mr. Speaker, to say that I think, as Assembly urge the Department of Culture, I have put on the reconl quite extensively in the Heritage and Citizenship to consider developing past, the government's decision to eliminate the and delivering cross cultural sensitization fundingfor theManitoba Intercultural Council and workshops to bemade available toall membersof thereby take away its ability to do the workthat it the Legislature, all deputy ministers and all hadundertaken and donehad for 10 years is a stain political staff in government departments, as and blota on thisgovernment andis anissue that recommended in the 1990 Manitoba Intercultural will be dealtwith in other areas, but theManitoba Council Report, "Combatting Racism in Intercultural Council was able to produce many Manitoba." recommendations and papers on thistopic. 4076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

This one in particular, Mr. Speaker, had some The first resolution asks for cross-cultural and very goodconcrete suggestions that would enable antiracism programs in every school inManitoba. the people of Manitoba to more fully appreciate, This is a very important component of this understand andenj oy thepositive elements of our resolution, because as it stated in theWHEREAS, multicultural society. ifwe do not do some preventive work,if we do not work with children when they are young, then we They could do thatyou and are able to do that are going to have a much more difficult time only if you are at thesame time combatting the dealing with situations aschildren tuminto young insidious and pervasive problem of racism in adults andadults. This does not just happenthe in exam Manitoba. We have many ples of racism in issues of racism, it happens in every area of our our province, including, just today, there was a. life. Our attitudes are established young, they are demonstration outside the Law Courts building harder to change the older you get, and it is because a member of a racist organization was important thatwe begin thatprocess early. appearing in court for a vicious attaclc four weeks agoon a member of thepubli c. I also say, Mr.Acting Speaker, that it is important to put these cross-cultural and (Mr. Bob Rose,Acting Speaker, in theClair) antiracism programs in every school inManitoba, because we have thesame problem to a greater or The people that were at that rally represented lesserextent in every school in Manitoba. Another many of thecultural organizations in the province thing, too, that isI think important to remember is of Manitoba,but theyalso represented a numberof just because you go to a school for Grades 1, 2 and otherorganizations and groups, not as thearticle in 3 in Minnedosa does notmean thatyou will not the newspaper said, "special interest groups," but endup attendingGrades 4, S and in6 thenorth end groups that represent a range of the people of of Winnipegperhaps and junior high in the south Manitoba, who spoke out against this particular endof Winnipegand senior high inVirden. I mean issue, this particular incident of racism, and also this is a very mobile population. We are all very spoke out against the whole problem ofracism in mobile these days. So you have to have the our society. programs in every school in Manitoba so that I thinkit is very clearthat we do have a problem childrenhave accessto thattraining andeducation. with racism inManitoba. It is very clear that we It is also important then by definition, if you are also paying an eno101ous price for this every have the programs there, you need to have the time we have anincident of racism. trainingthe of teachers that willimplementing be Incidents of racism are notalways as overt as thoseprograms, and isthat alsoimportant because teachers are a very important component of our theywere in this attack on this man, whoby the way happensto have been a memberof one of the socialization in our education about the world aroundus. founding, not original members of Canada, but a memberof one of the jorma culturalcomponents The second resolution is similar to the first of our province andnot a visible minority atall. He recommendation and that is that there be was just expressing concerns just before be was cross-cultural and antiracism programs delivered attackedabout the commentsracist thatwere being to virtually every other profession in our society made by the individuals who then attacked him that connects with the multicultural elements of viciously. our society in addition to theeducational, and that is child care workers, people who work with We all pay the pricefor these racistcomments, seniors, recreation workers and income-security these racist actions and these racist attitudes. I andhealth careprofess ionals, aswell asthe justice think the resolution, the RESOLVEDs in this system. resolution,deal more withthe attitude thanthey do with overtcases ofracism . • (1730) June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OFMANITOBA 4077

These people, these professions, work with security, health care and justice system people, people and have a great deal of influence on many of whom are government employees, but attitudes and behaviours. In many cases, these thisresolution final is discussing theneed thatwe people arein positions of control andauthority, all have to sensitize ourselves. By ourselves, I mean the way from child care worlrers to guards in the not only the 57 members of the Legislative provincial correctionalsystem . We needto educate Assembly but the deputyministers andall political them aswell asto the issues of racism andalso the staff. cross-cultural issues. Cross-cultural issues are not The reason for this partof the resolution is that exactly thesame asantiracism issues.If youhave a because everything we do in our actions as good cross-cultural understanding, then you are members of the Legislative Assembly, whether in much less likely to have racist attitudes. So they oppositionor government,whether as aminister or are veryclosely connected but they arenot exactly a backbencher and, by extension, the deputy the same. ministerlevel, which is thelevel of thegovernment The third resolution is the urging of the thatis actually chargedwith theimplementation of provincial government to produce anddistribute a government policy and legislation, as well as the pamphletin a rangeof languagesdetailing thelaws political staffof not only all members but of the and penalties relating to racist incidents and ministers-these individuals intheir own various discrimination. I think that this is an important ways have an enormous amount of influence, component of the resolution as well, because not powerand authority in thelegislative process. only is it important that individuals who are Mr. Acting Speaker, if we as legislators and potentially most likely to be the victims of racist deputy ministers andpolitical staff arenot aware behaviours, attitudes andactions, not onlydo they of theimplications of our actions, our behaviours, need to know what their rights are, but also our judgments, our legislation, and the individuals who might consider behaving in a implications that has on theissue of racism and racist fashion needto know what thepenalties are multiculturalism, and if we are not aware of the for theirbehaviour. impact that hason cross-cultural issues, then we The Minister of Justice (Mrs. Vodrey) hasjust are not going to provide the kindof services and recently introducedlegislation that would prohibit the ofkind legislationthat thepeople of Manitoba young offenders from getting their drivers' need haveand theright to expect. licences if they are charged repeatedly with Mr.Acting Speaker, that Ithink this resolution is offences. One ofthe statements that Minister the of one that is fairly detailed and talks about some Justice hasmade in the introduction of that bill is specific programs that could be implemented in thatyou have to ensure that they know what the many of our systems throughout the province of penalties arefor theiractions . Manitoba. I think it isaresolution that deserves, This pamphlet would go a bit of a way in and I hope it will receive, the approval of all allowing individuals across the spectrum in members of thisLegislature, and that theMinister Manitoba to understand, No. 1, what theirrights of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mr. areand, No. 2, what theirresponsibilities are, and Gilleshammer) will support this resolution and that there are consequences for actions such as will undertaketo take the leadrole inworking with racist statements, comments, attitudes andactions. hiscolleagues on thegovernment benches to begin implementation of theserecommendations Finally, the last resolution deals with a cross-cultural sensitization worlcshop tobemade Mr. Acting Speaker, I can assure you that the available to many of the people who work in the official opposition would support completely any legislative process in the province of Manitoba. actions that the Minister of Culture, Heritage and The second resolution talks about child care Citizenship would agree to undertake in workers, people who work with seniors, income implementing thisresolution. 4078 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

With those fewwords I commend thisresolution problemreally is , andthat is moreof a racial thing. to the Legislature, andlook forward to its speedy The reason why I say that is, I was listening, andI passage today. think it was Mike McCourt, it was on CJOB, where thenewscast said in Calgary a legion said, Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Acting Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to be able to stand no, that you cannot, because you have headwear and turbana isa partof headwear, that you cannot here to speak to the member for Wellington's wear it, but they did make an exception. They resolution. made an exception, I believe it was for cowboy I have had ample opportunity in the past, as a hats, during theirann ual event. cultural critic or multicultural critic, to go out and Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, I found that if you meet with all different ethnic groups and really read between some of the messages that experience first hand the cultural diversity that come out thatit hasnothing to do with tradition or Manitoba actually offers. 1bere is one topic that respect, thatit is a bit more deep-rooted than. that I comes upconsis tently, and topic,that of course, is recall, and it was very gratifying to see other racism, and I thinkis what most important for not communities, in particular the Jewish community, only all members of this Chamber but all coming to the defencethat thisis not a policy that Manitobans to realize is that no matterwhat is to is supported, and it was very gratifying to hear besaid about racism thebottom lineis that racism members from this Chamber actually speak out hurts, andit hurts whether it is intentionally done againstthat particular policy . through a racial slur or ifit is an action that is unintentionallydone . • (1740) I wantedto give a couple of theexperiences that I recall another incident where a constituent of have been conveyed, andin some areas I myself mine went to the Superstore up in the north end. have witnessed orpartaken, andthings canhappen Many individuals may recall that particular in a very perceived-innocence way, Mr. Acting incident because it received quite a bit of media Speaker. I recall a couple of years ago, for attention. 1beday thatincident the occurredhad I example, whenI was over atthe International Inn received a call from my constituent and she and wasI at afunction, and I was standing besidea expressedthat sheall wasdoing was going through black lady andsomeone walks up to us andlooks the checkoutline and theclerk made reference to at the lady and says, how long have you been in the fact thatall Filipino children steal. Mr. Acting Canada? Well, I would likely argue that had she Speaker, when I had talked to her, this particular been of an Italian background that individual lady wascrying on thetelephone trying to express would not have askedlady the the same question. how she was feeling andwhat it is that she could Because thisparticular individual was ofa visible do aboutit. minority it was edassum that this individual is a 1bemessage, as Isay, thatI wouldtry to get out recent immigrant, toCanada andnothing could be when it comes to racism is that it does not matter furthertruth. fromthe A little bit of knowledge on the severity of the case, in thesense that whatever immigration, on history of Canada, would have racialaction istaken, wheneversomeone makes a demonstrated very clearly to this individual that racial statement, that you are hurting people, real the black community has been in Canada for people, and the only way that you are really going generations. to combat racism is to do what the Manitoba Intercultural Council talked about, and that is Other incidences more recently-for example, througheducation. To combatracism you have to we have heardlot a aboutthe turbaniss ue in which take certain measures in order to educate the many Legions acrosshave Canada indicated that populationas awho le. they do not support the wearing of headwear in Olderto really, in myopinion, Mr. Acting Speaker, Mr. Acting Speaker, ifyou take alook at any in many cases to hide what the root of their kindergartenin class the area that Irepresent and June 23, 1994 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA 4079

you look at the kids playing together, you will see There are other issues. The member in the that it doesnot matterwhat colour of skin ethnicor resolution makes reference to the curriculum, background one child comes from, that the incoipOrating it into the educational curriculum. children in the kindergarten level all play amongst Being the Education critic, I have sort of an each other and they are all equals, and that is the understandingterms in of the pressuresthat put are way it should be. But as years go by, through on the current curriculum. I could go to the Pedlar stereotypes and other forms of problems that report where domestic violence and the Pedlar society has, some individuals through the report is recommending that something on socialization process become and take domestic violence be a partof theculum curri . unfortunately racialactions or say things thatdo a lot of damage to society as awhole. I believe that Thereis no doubt thateducational our facilities there is a lot of merit to whatthe resolution is in do have a role to play in combatting racism and fact saying and is something that should be dealing with domestic violence and in the many supported. other things that are being pressured in terms of adding to the curriculum. But I think thatmaybe But there are nua mberof points thatI wanted to there might beways in which we can bring in,and talk about with respect to the resolution. I know we look to the Department of Education in part of the BE IT RBSOLVBDs is making the particular andthe department of multiculturalism, suggestion that MLAs take across-cultural day or the Minister responsible for Multiculturalism along with the deputy ministers andso forth. This (Mr. Gilleshammer) should be sitting down with is in fact a recommendation fromthe MIC. This is the Minister of Education (Mr. Manness) and something thatwe have beenasking now fromour saying, what arewe doing to sensitize? Wherecan caucus since 1990, shortly after the report was we incorporate under the current curriculum to done. ensure thatwe aresending a verypositive message It is not like it is a major initiative that the and a message that racism does hurt, that it is government would have to do to provide that important that we have tolerance amongst our

one-day cross-culturalexperience for MLAs , but it children?H mom anddad are saying something, it does at the veryleast sendmessage. a As elected might not necessarily be proper becauseit is not officials, Mr. Acting Speaker, you know just as acceptable in today's multicultural society, and I well as I that we go out andwe meetwith awide would argue, nor should it have ever been differing, a large number of Manitobans. We get acceptable, Mr.Acting Speaker. opportunities to speak. We get opportunities to sit down and talk about all sorts of different issues, I recall the member for St. Johns when she andit is important that we are sensitized to what brought forward,with no doubtgood inte ntions, to otherindividuals feel is importantto them in tenns theOwnber and askedshe a questionabout, well, of combatting racism andwe arebetter able to do why does the minister not incorporate this our part. magazine thatwas being produced andsupply the funds that were necessary to publish this It would benothing for theminister tostand up magazine,and itthen wastable d. following me and to make thatcommitment, to say that sometimewithin the next twomonths, that that I had theortunity opp and I read the magazine. particularday for MLAsin fact willprovided, be The magazine in itselfhad racist messages. The and send out an invitation not only to theMI...As, reason why I bringthat upis because Iis thinkthis but to whetherit is membersof Parliament, school something in which, yes, we have to take some trostees, to all theelected officials. Thatwould be action.It is important thatgovernment lead where at the very least a strong statement coming from it can,but it is equally importantthat we have got the government that they areprepared to do what to be very cognizant that by trying to say this is they can. wrong, that we are not overcompensating by 4080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

making a statement thatothers might perceive as particular member. Thank you, Mr. Acting being racial. Speaker. Thatparticular magazine was in fact, Mr.Acting (Mr. Speaker in the Cllai.r) Speaker, something as awhole I could not support Bon. Harold Gilleshammer (Minister of because of some of the things that were being a Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. part of it, but I do believe that there materialis that Speaker, I think thisvery isa important topic that is out there andmaybe the department-! should we arehaving an ortunityopp to discuss today and not say maybe-the Department of Culture, always a verysensitive issueunding surro it. I do Heritage and the Minister responsible for regret that we have such limited time today, Multiculturalism (Mr. Gilleshammer) do have a through nobody's fault of course that we are not role to see ifthere is material, and if there isnot, getting our fullhour. I know thathave I colleagues maybe we canput together some material which herewho also wantedto have anopportunity to put would assist the Department of Education in some thoughts on the record on this particular ensuring the children, not only children, but also resolution. adults through community clubs, through other avenues,are receiving a very strong message,that 1bemember who introdu cedit startedby saying message being that racism is not tolerable in it is along resolution, andcertainly it is. 1bereare society andgovernment will not tolerate it. many aspects of itwe thatIthink can agree andon, I would like to dwell on some of those. One of the ways governments candemonstrate • (1750) thatit willnot tolerate isit to givesome teethto the organizations that are there today, such as the She also indicates in one of the WHEREASes commissions that are out there,Rights theHuman that the provincial government has taken no Commission andso forth,if they have the abilityto substantiveaction. I think whatthis is really spoils beable to take concrete action against individuals. the resolution because there is absolutely no recognitionthe of tremendous work that has been 1be otherday I had membera from thevisible done by the Department of Culture, Heritage and minority give me a call and said that she had Citizenship, the Department of Education, the applied for a particularjob and wastold thatthey Departmentof Justiceand many other departments were not hiring fromparticular that ethnic group, in implementing programs andpolicies thatreally Mr. Acting Speaker. I suggested to her that she move to thecore ofthis issue andgo a longway in take it to the HumanRights Commission. Shewas answering the report that the member speaks of. somewhat fearful that by taking it there, it was going to become some sortof a public event, and I am just sorry that I am not going to have shewould rather not that.do enough time to get into all of those things today, andagain it certainlyis not the fault of themember Well, those cases thatdo go before the public, that we needed that important time to spend on thosecases that do go beforethe commissi ons,the Estimates. While the Liberal Party bas not asked government bas to do what it can to ensure that questions on thistopic in Question Period, I know action isbeing taken so that society will seethat if the member for Wellington (Ms. Barrett)sincere is you take somesort of a racial actionthat is hurting because one day she did askme a questionon this or going against a community that in fact particular issue. I know that when we get to the government will nottolerate it, and willdo what it Estimatesdebates, hope fullyin the near future,we can ensureto it isnot going to continue. can spend some time on this andgo into a little more detail. I, too,would liketo see theresolution come to a vote and would anticipate that this particular I would like to say that the Department of resolutiondoes receive the supportmembers from Culture,Heritage and Citizenship bas a couple of inside the Chamber, I know it does from this programsthat have workedexceedingly well. June23, 1994 LEGISLATIVEASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 4081

The Bridging Cultures Program has provided mandatory that the school system hasprograms in funding to community groups to do a variety of place andteachers in place who, in their teachings things to combat racism and work on some of the and in theirprogram s, educate children to bemore sensitive issues that have been referenced here tolerant, to deal with racism thatis in society and today. These groups have been able, through the to hopefully bring forward graduates some day Bridging Cultures Program, to access some small who have an understanding of the cultural grantsto workon some literature, some pamphlets, diversity of Manitoba. some community meetings and so forth to share their feelings and share theirthoughts on racism I really have to agree with the member for and to bring forward some solutions within their Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) on this issue. We are own communities and certainly bring them asking our schools to do a tremendous amount of forwardto govemment. work. We have a public out there who is demandingthat school the system spendmore and Our government is just really happy that we more time on some of thebasic tenets of education. have been apartner in workingon these issues and The school system itself is under attack by many finding these solutions. I know thatcitizens within who are saying that our standards are not high our communities fully recognize the efforts that enough, thatthe educationthat is provided todayis have beenput forth by the department to find these not of a quality that the public wants. solutionsand moveforward . I cantell you, assomeone who bas spentmany Too oftenwe dwell on thenegative, and I would years in the school system, I do believe that we remind members oppositeUnited thatthe Nations have made too many demands on the school again bas indicated that Canada is the No. 1 system which taketime away fromcurricul the um, count:Iy in theworld that people wantto choose to which take time away from what needs to be live in. Certainly, Manitoba is very proud of the taught aspart of a basiceducation. many attributes that we can boast of about our province.We know thatthere are people in other I will tell you that I think teachers, since the parts ofthe world who areattempting to immigrate beginningof time, throughprograms in geography to Canada and certainly to Manitoba, and we are and history and language arts, have incorporated proud of that. within their teaching ideas of respect for other students, respect for other people, an The other program I would like to just briefly acknowledgement of what the many multicultural mention is the program called the Respectful groups have brought to ourprovince, but to come Workplace. Our department took a lead in forwardand say that we have to dedicate time and developing what is called a code for a respectful provide curriculumand teachingtime inan already workplace. To the member for Wellington (Ms. short day, in analready short year,when there is so Barrett), who indicated, andI am surenot with a much demand, we have a system that isgoing to lot of sincerity, that government bas taken no produce graduates at the end of the day who are substantive action,if she is not familiar withthat competitive and well educated and can readily program, I would certainly be willing to provide move into employment in our society, to further her with some detailed information on it. This shrink that school day by adding more courses is program hasbeen embraced by the avil Service just not on. Commission, by the private sector and also by other governments across Canada who are We have to do that within current curriculum. recognizing thatManitoba is takinga leading role We have todo that,whether iton is theplayground in bringing forwardthis code for the respectful or with existing courses, that is something good workplace. teachershave alwaysdone . The memberfor Wellington says thatwe should We do not needto addcredit courses. doWe not do more within the school system and make it have to add new programming to do what good 4082 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLYOF MANITOBA June 23, 1994

teachers have always done. I think, if themember programming, new credit courses in any of the for Wellington (Ms. Barrett) would give thatsome schools and any of the programs--- thought, she would see thatthat suggestion simply Mr. Speaker: Order, please. When this matter is is not one that would work. We have people again before the House, the honourable minister demanding thatwe extend theschool year, that we willhave seven minutes remaining. extend theschool day, thatwe spend more time on literacy, on basic computational skills, onmaking 1behour being 6 p.m., thisHouse now adjourns people computer literate. We simply cannot be and stands adjourned till 10 a.m. tomorrow stealing that valuable time to add new (Friday). LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA

Thursday, June 23, 1994

CONTENTS

ROUTINEPROCEEDINGS Unemployment InsuranceCommission Friesen; Maooess 4015 PresentingPetitions WoikerAdjustment Branch Phannacare BenefitLevels Friesen; Prazoik 4015 Edwards 4007 Health CareFacilities Ministerial Statements and Barrett;McCrae 4016 Tabtiog ofReports Nwse-MaoagedCare Committee Annual Report: Teachers' Retirement Barrett;McCrae 4016 Allowances FundBoard Department of Health MaDness 4007 Gray; McCrae 4016 Captal ConstructionProgram Child Poverty MaDness 4007 Cerilli; Maooess 4017 Doer 4007 Edwards 4008 ProvincialMagistrates Mackintosh; Vodrey 4019 Estimates: 1994-1995 Revenue Stefaoson 4008 NonpoliticalStatements Presenting Reports by Miami Collegiate Graduates Standing and Speclal Committees Filmon 4019 Doer 4020 Committee of Supply Edwards 4020 Dacquay 4009 Turn OffTV Week Introductionof Bills Cerilli 4020 Bill 28, Off-RoadVehicles Amendment Act ORDERS OF THEDAY Findlay 4009 Committeeof Supply Oral Questions Labour 4021 KenastonUndetpass Housing 4049 Doer; Filmon 4009 Pukatawagao,Manitoba PrivateMembers' Business Storie; McCrae 4011 Debateon Second Readings-Public Bills BumsCommittee Bill 206, Coatof Arms, Emblems and Edwards; Filmon 4012 theManitoba Tartan Amendment Act WIDDipeg Jets Lamoureux 4074 Edwards; Filmon 4012 Proposed Resolutions NorthernFly-in Sports Camps Res. 22,Action onRacism Edwards; Ernst 4013 Barrett 4074 Port of Olurchill Lamoureux 4078 Robinson; Findlay 4014 Gilleshammer 4080