Interview with John Savage May 1, 1987

Georgia Government Documentation Project

Series B: Public Figures

Interview with John Savage

May 1, 1987 Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library

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CITATION:

Savage, John, Interviewed by Sally Flocks, 1 May 1987, P1987-06, Series B. Public Figures, Georgia Government Documentation Project, Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library, Atlanta.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

GEORGIA GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTATION PROJECT

GEORGIA STATE UNIVERSITY

SERIES B: PUBLIC FIGURES

NARRATOR: JOHN SAVAGE

INTERVIEWER: SALLY FLOCKS

DATE: MAY 1, 1987

FLOCKS: This is an interview with former State Representative Dr. John Savage by

Sally Flocks at her home on May 1, 1987. John, why don't we begin by talking a little

about your background? Where were you brought up?

SAVAGE: Sally, I grew up in the panhandle of Northwest Florida and South

Alabama. I came to Emory in 1952 when I was eighteen. And for those of us that grew

up in the South in the Depression years, to give you an example I said I was eighteen

when I first saw a Jew or a Catholic or a Republican and there was a lot of truth in that

because in my childhood I never saw a Jew or I never saw a Catholic and I never saw a

Republican to my knowledge. I lived in small southern communities, very isolated

southern communities with very limited income and really very limited contact with the

outside world.

FLOCKS: What did your parents do?

SAVAGE: My Dad built roads, construction work, very hard from very early in the Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library morning to very late at night as a superintendent for a construction company building

roads.

FLOCKS: And you went to Emory? Did you start out as in the undergraduate?

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

SAVAGE: In the undergraduate. I went to the college and went to the dental schools

and taught the dental school and then I went to Emory law school also.

FLOCKS: I saw that in the write-up in the Official Statistical Register and I hope that

was interesting. Did you go through three years of law school?

SAVAGE: No, I went back. At that time Emory law school was giving a Bachelor of

Arts in Law. And I went back two years and picked up the Bachelor of Arts in Law from

the law school.

FLOCKS: Yes, I've never heard of a Bachelor of Arts in Law before and when I saw

that I was curious.

SAVAGE: Yes, they gave that degree and you had to have attended Emory

undergraduate at that time to get the Bachelor of Arts and after the first two years they

gave you a Bachelor of Arts in Law and then, if I had continued for another years I would

have got the L.L.B. that they were giving at that time.

FLOCKS: Did that have anything to do with your political aspirations?

SAVAGE: No, I guess since I was a little kid I had an interest in politics and had an

interest in politics at Emory. I was president of the student body and was always

involved in all of the campus elections and that type of thing, so I had an interest in it, and

still do. I still have an interest in the political process.

FLOCKS: Were you running for political offices even in elementary and high school?

SAVAGE: No, most of my interest at that time were hunting and fishing and playing Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library the things that country boys do. For example, there'd be six or eight months that I would

be out in the rivers or in the fields or swamps everyday, hunting or fishing. And we had

very little money to spend and we, you know, camped out on Friday or Saturday night.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

And none of my friends at camp, we didn't even have a tent. We'd camp with nothing

but a blanket, that type of thing.

FLOCKS: Well, you must have done well in school if you got into Emory?

SAVAGE: I was a Depression . In 1934 was the year of my birth and when I

came to Emory they needed students very badly. And believe or not, they had none of

the SAT tests or those types of things and I made good grades in high school and I think if

they'd administered any tests with any quality of academic achievement, that I'd never

would have passed those tests. I was lucky I came to college in the years before you had

to pass a lot of tests to get in.

FLOCKS: (pauses) After you got out of law school, did you then begin working as a

dentist?

SAVAGE: I was working as a dentist when I was in law school and teaching at the

dental school. And I got involved in the Republican Party, early Republican politics in

Georgia and really thought that the Republican Party was going to be a vehicle for

effective, constructive, political change in this state. There were several Republican

Aldermen, at that time they were called in Atlanta. Dick Freeman was one of them,

whose now a federal judge. Rodney Cook was another one who is now. . . . Rodney is

retired from politics and is simply in his insurance business, but they were very bright and

they were very enlightened politicians in the state at that time and I thought the

Republican Party had a wonderful opportunity in Georgia to point out everything from the Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library county unit system to the fact that blacks couldn't participate in government to the fact

that Georgia ought to take leadership in the South in the twentieth century and that this

ought to be a dynamic, progressive, estate and the Republican Party never fulfilled that

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

goal in my opinion and I think the Republican Party is probably the least effective now in

Georgia than it was maybe twenty years ago and that's a unhappy thing for the future of

this state because we ought to have had a more competitive system of government than

we've had and we still don't have a competitive system of government in Georgia. We

still don't even have a Democratic institution even in the House where Tom Murphy is the

speaker has total power and personally I like Tom Murphy and no qualms with what he

represents in government, but to have what amounts to a dictatorship in legislative body

and I not referring to him as a dictator, I simply referring to the mass and the power in

one individual. It's still a sad, sad state, a commentary about the Georgia political

system. I had hoped that many of these things could and would be changed in Georgia.

Maybe some of them will. I saw the Republican Party as a vehicle maybe to bring about

some of these changes and associated with it and work many, many years very hard to

help this to be a Republican competitive two-party state, really. And I had a chance in

1976 or 1975, in 1975 I think it was, I could have been Republican state chairman had I

wanted to be. That was after I had run for lieutenant governor in 1974. And it was

interesting: I got more votes as a candidate for lieutenant governor than the Republican

candidate for governor did, but that's some of the early interest I had in politics here in

Atlanta.

FLOCKS: So your interest in the Republican Party really was not out of any

conservativism. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: Well, that maybe is not true. I'm still a very conservative individual.

There is a couple of things that I think I said. . . . Wait just a second now. And this was

in 19. . . . Gosh, I was running for re-election in, I think it 1982 and this is a quote from

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

me and "a honest and limited government, self disciplined the work ethic, work

responsibility, lower taxes are a commitment and a commitment to excellence are the

ideals that I strive to represent your state legislator." Now, I have never seen any branch

of government do anything effective or efficiently or cost effective. I'm not a big

government person at all. I think that if you describe my philosophy in government, it is

a conservative philosophy and I do believe, for example, that government ought to be

accountable and that people ought to be accountable for what they do whether you

commit a crime or whether you're going to do anything well. I don't think that you can

escape.

FLOCKS: I don't think that's the way people really think of. . . .

SAVAGE: Some and really that's maybe not, it's almost a libertarian philosophy and

you and I've talked earlier, I'm definitely now stereotyped in my approach to what

government ought to be or what people ought to be believe or the freedom and the

diversity that I think it so wonderful in this nation and in our society, but my basic

approach to government would be a conservative approach. And on some issues, you

know, that we've talked about, I think we've talked about abortion and I said, you know,

"I think that's a woman's prerogative and her individual responsibility without

government interfering with that," but then you and I haven't talked about. . . . I think if

you commit a crime, that you ought to be accountable and responsible for that crime and

I'm highly unhappy with the years and years that the judicial system takes to try: for Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library example, the Alday killers down in Georgia. And if really were in charge of government

and in control of government, when vicious criminals like the Alday killers, raped and

robbed and murdered those people, we'd had a death sentence in this state and it would be

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

fast and effective and swift. So, I'm saying that my beliefs are not simple. They're

complex, but I do believe in you being accountable for what you do.

FLOCKS: Oh, sure.

SAVAGE: And government being accountable for what it does. And I really would

like to have a society where people are safe in the society. For example, if I were to

coming along out here and I saw somebody raping you, I'd come help you. (pauses) I'll

tell you a funny story. When I was state representative, two doors down from me, there

was a girl with two young children who was divorced and a bugler was in her house.

And she called me for help and I went to help her and took my gun. And we called the

police at the same time and the police were about forty-five minutes coming and she was

scared to death in the second story of her house up there and I was outside, but I went to

help. And I shot my gun up in the air and said, "You better get out of there!" And the

bugler went out the back door and one of our constituents wrote a letter to

the Constitution saying how irresponsible it was by our state representative John Savage.

FLOCKS: You were responsible?

SAVAGE: How irresponsible to go to the help of a woman with two small children

whose house is being invaded by a bugler. Now, that's not my concept of what our

society ought to be.

FLOCKS: No. Not mine either.

SAVAGE: But I'm just simply sharing. In many respects those people who are Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library conservative would agree with me. Where I would differ from them would be in my

tolerance for diversity, for different of opinion, for difference of religion, for government

never interfering with any of the separation of church and state which I so strongly

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

advocate with the never interfering with the right to demonstrate or that type of thing with

equal opportunity for women, for blacks, minorities, that type of thing, that I have a high

commitment for which might be considered liberal, you know, policies. But the limited

government and being safe and effective, you know, police. And I'd have to tell you, if I

came home and a bugler--and I grew up and I think I told you in the country I grew up

with guns in my house. And if a bugler had raped and beat up my wife and I could get to

one of my guns--he'd kill my wife or my son--I'd kill him if I had a chance, right then. If

you violate my home and kill some one of my relatives and I get a chance, I'm going to

kill right up that mark. Now, that's just personal, you know, I'm giving you some

personal beliefs.

FLOCKS: I promise you I won't do that. (laughs) or stay for good.

SAVAGE: I'm also telling you that I would never harm anybody else or violate

anybody's, nor would I steal from anybody, or that type of thing, but I can't--I grew up in a

community where we never looked doors, we never took keys out of cars. I never heard

of people being raped and beat up and all of the things that I see taking place in our

society today and that's not compatible with what the type of society I'd like for us to

have. I'd be tougher and harder on law and order, if you want to call it that. And I'd

have our judicial system far more effective and fair and you and I both know, you are

married to an attorney and I went to Emory law school--that frequently the amount of

money that you can pay for the legal talent that you can get determines the quality of Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library justice that you get. And you can be guilty and everybody knows that you are guilty and

I'll give you an example. Didn't Percy Forman when Candace Mossler, I think in

Houston, killed her husband and everybody knew she killed her husband and Percy

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

Forman defended her. And he charged her a million dollars and she said that was

exorbitant. And he had to take her to court with a jury trial to sue her and the jury

awarded him the million dollars. And the verdict reading was that if he had not had her

as her attorney that the jury felt that one, that she would have been convicted of murder,

and second, she'd been executed. So, he was entitled to her million dollars. And I'm

simply saying that maybe our judicial system and our system of justice really could be

greatly improved, and should be. Now, that was a long answer to the question of

conservatism.

FLOCKS: (begins to laugh) No, that's a complicated question and it's difficult to

label oneself.

SAVAGE: Yes.

FLOCKS: I understand that. Being Republican doesn't mean you're necessarily

conservative. Being Democrat doesn't necessarily make you liberal.

SAVAGE: No.

FLOCKS: By any means. Certainly in a one-party state like this.

SAVAGE: Yes, and we do have a one-party state and I have felt that that's been

detrimental to this state where we need a state of competition of ideas in the political

process.

FLOCKS: Tell us a little bit about your campaigns. I'm interesting in what they were

like. Your first campaign was right after Mark was born or right before? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: Right before. I was lived in Southeast Atlanta. I had represented one of

the poorest districts in Atlanta in the state legislature. As a Republican, I've represented

one of the wealthiest districts in the state of Georgia in Atlanta as both a Republican and

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

a Democrat. I essentially just out-worked everybody that I ever ran against and my first

election, for example, it was the only, I was running as a Republican and there were like

two hundred people who voted in the Republican primary and like four thousand or five

that voted in the Democratic primary. The district was forty per cent black. I did not

leave that district for, I think it was ten, I didn't physically get outside of the district for

ten months prior to the November election and I worked on it every day, seven days a

week.

FLOCKS: What happened to your dental practice?

SAVAGE: I would practice until about four o'clock and then campaign until about ten

that night and then Saturday afternoon I'd practice Saturday morning and then campaign

Saturday and Sunday afternoon. I knocked on every door in the district and after I'd

knock on the door, I'd have a system of letters: one, two, three, four. And for example,

if I'd knocked on your door, Sally Flocks and George Butler and I put down maybe letter

number three and that would have been that you were favorable inclined to vote for me

and support me and campaign. And the next day, you'd gotten a personal letter. I had

the body of the letter, you know, written and printed on the same typewriter that I typed in

your name and then at the bottom I put P. S. Dear Sally, I sure enjoyed having soda water

with you at your house and the next day that letter went out. And it was that type of

relentless, never-ending work that let me win in districts, essentially. I don't think that

no other person has been elected in as a diverse a district as I had. That district in 1970 Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library had a run-off election and it was the only Democratic run-off in the state of Georgia and

the run-off was between a black woman and a white night school attorney who had lived

in the district all of his life. And the white night school attorney won the run-off election

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

and Charlie Carnes whose now a county judge and was running for the Public Service

Commission told a friend of his the night of the run-off, "Ted Spears was just elected to

the state legislature because they knew that no Republican could possibly win in a district

that was forty per cent black, in a district where four or thousand people had voted in

Democratic primary and about 220 people voted in the Republican primary in the entire

district." One of the most. . . . And in that election Jimmy Carter was running for

governor. Hal Suit was running for governor as a Republican and I'll give you some

comparisons. I got fifty-nine per cent of the vote in that district running as a Republican.

Paul Coverdell was elected to the state. Hal Suit, in my district got forty-one per cent of

the vote. Paul Coverdell was elected to the state Senate with fifty-two per cent of the

vote. Hal suit got seventy-seven per cent of vote and Paul Coverdell's senatorial district.

In other words, Paul ran twenty-five percentage points behind Hal Suit. I ran eighteen

or nineteen percentage points ahead of Hal Suit. I was the only Republican elected that

year that Hal Suit didn't carry that district in a vast majority. There was no other

Republican elected in a district of Georgia in 1970 that Hal Suit didn't get more than a

vast majority of the votes in the district in that November election. So, I was the only

candidate for the House that got more votes in their House district than Hal Suit got for

governor that year. And the same thing was true in 1982 when I changed parties in a

district that was vastly Republican. Mack Mattingly got ninety per cent of the vote in

this district running for the Senate that year and I beat John Lipscomb, the Republican Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library with fifty-four per cent of the vote that year, but both of those elections were in results of

monumental amount of hard work. I simply out-worked probably any candidate that

you've ever talked to for the state legislature.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: Did Rita in the campaign?

SAVAGE: Yes. She was very effective. She began, in later years, to tire of all of

that because our house essentially became a campaign headquarters and our kitchen table

was simply keeping up with the names and the letters that went out every night. And I

don't know whether you remember, I used to jog and I would leave home, even in this

district, I'd leave home at 9:30 on Saturday morning and I might not come home until

eight o'clock that Saturday night.

FLOCKS: Stopping and talking?

SAVAGE: At every door, yes. And I might have fifty cards so fifty letters would

have to addressed that night and no wife likes to do that, (Sally laughs) I don't think.

FLOCKS: Well, Mark told me that he's been very interested in your political and that

he used to go with you to the legislature.

SAVAGE: He enjoyed it. And most of the kids do. It's exciting. The state

legislature in Georgia is the most place exciting place in this state. There's no doubt

about that.

FLOCKS: I think that I told you over the phone that I went through the House

Calendars and looked at all the bills that you initiated and the thing that would have

frustrated me the most, I think, if I'd been in your position, the bills that would go to

committee and never get voted on.

SAVAGE: Oh, yes. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library FLOCKS: Did you find that frustrating?

SAVAGE: Oh, yes. And let me tell you a fascinating thing. One time I had

ninety-five signatures, which is, you know, it took, when we had 180 members in the

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

House, well the first election we had 215. I had ninety-eight votes on a bill and I

couldn't get it out of committee.

FLOCKS: So, did the committee leaders or the committee chairman . . .

SAVAGE: Yes.

FLOCKS: . . . just control it.

SAVAGE: You know they made the decision in cahoots with what really Tom

Murphy and a few other people wanted done in the legislative process and especially if it

was a bill of any significance. Now, the fascinating thing, to give you an example, I

think I told you this on the phone--I was the first person in the state of Georgia to declare

my campaign contributions where they came from even before it was logged and

introduce the first bill requiring that. Of course, they didn't let it out of committee.

They introduced the first bills for Georgia to join with Florida in having a combination

presidential election heading this state in Florida towards a southern presidential primary.

It's fascinating that Tom Murphy picked that up three or four years later and made it

happen. I had the first bill in the legislature on popular initiative which probably will

never happen in this state. I noticed there's a guy, Bud Stumbaugh who's going around

the state this year getting signatures on popular initiative and is using that as a vehicle

where he wants to run for lieutenant governor, I think. He a Senator: Senator Bud

Stumbaugh But many of the pieces of legislation I introduced were very innovative and

the first time that that issue had been considered in the state of Georgia and those types of Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library progressive legislation, you know, really didn't stand a chance and they certainly didn't

stand a chance from a Republican in this state.

FLOCKS: I think one reason why I asked about you being a conservative is that I saw

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

the bills on sales and use tax and you were saying, "Let's get prescription drugs . . .

SAVAGE: Yes.

FLOCKS: . . . food, and some of the utilities . . .

SAVAGE: Yes, I think . . .

FLOCKS: . . . without sales tax"?

SAVAGE: You see, the fascinated thing, we have been really a very high tax state in

many respects and I felt that we ought to move our taxes basically to make the income

corporate taxation and that type of thing and move it off the basic essentials that people

have to have. And in the system of fair taxation, we would have sales taxes but they

would be on things other than food and drugs, essentially the basic essentials. Utilities,

the electric bill here in Georgia, the phone bill, old people can't live. Now, we could live

without a phone, I guess. We wouldn't want to, but certainly the heat and lights and that

type of thing are essentials and I'd move away from taxation of those type of things.

FLOCKS: You introduced one bill about a bracket system on the sales tax? Do you

remember that?

SAVAGE: Tell me in what respect you . . .

FLOCKS: Well, I only read the title of the bill, so I didn't know much about it. I

probably should just go read the actual bill. It talked about having a bracket system for

the sales tax.

SAVAGE: I think that was (pauses) and I have to apologize because I don't Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library remember that specific bill as it related to sales and income tax. My basic philosophy

was to remove taxation from essentials and to. . . . The other thing that we should have

done, (telephone rings) I had some legislation. . . . Do you want to stop?

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: No.

SAVAGE: I had some legislation, for example, (telephone rings) on our intangible

tax which we still have in Georgia and I (telephone rings) used to worry. I think that's

made crooks out of half the people in the state. I used to say that we'd investigate all the

members (telephone rings) of state government and the state legislature that we'd have

to abolish the sales tax because so many of those people would be violating that law.

Very few people in Georgia filed the intangible tax. The other interested thing is that if I

were a person of great wealth, the intangible tax bill alone might keep me from retiring in

Georgia. I certainly wouldn't come here with as estate of fifty million dollars and settle

in Georgia. I'd go to Florida. There's some reasons that people go to Florida other than

the sunshine.

FLOCKS: Better tax.

SAVAGE: A far better tax approach. And if you also have to be highly

competitive--and Georgia's done pretty well in this, I think--in getting industry to this

state, but I think I shared with you a thought that, unfortunately most of the progress of

this state has come in spite of the political system. Much of it is and I'll give you an

example of everything from the Atlanta airport to the amount of revenues that the

metropolitan area of Atlanta contribute to every budget, governmental budget in the state

of Georgia. We simply take money from this metropolitan area and spend it all over the

state, and there's nothing wrong with that, but the rural areas in this state and the Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library legislative process ought to appreciate the economic dynamo, the transportation dynamo,

the news dynamo, the intellectual dynamo that the metropolitan area which the city of

Atlanta is the nucleus of has generated for this state. And you take that away from the

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

state, we'd probably fifty-first at everything. And the very people, for example, the

richest jobs in the state of Georgia are at the Atlanta airport. Seven or eight thousand, I

think at one time I did the figures on it, it was 7800 people in Clayton County who had

the best jobs in the South at the Atlanta airport, and yet the state representatives from

Clayton County would vote against anything that was beneficial to the city of Atlanta

airport.

FLOCKS: more kind of things would come up in the legislature?

SAVAGE: Anything from--I'll give you an example, when we have local elections in

the city of Atlanta, and I worked on this bill for a couple of years and finally passed it,

they would close down all of the wine serving in the restaurants here in the city of

Atlanta. You'd have a major convention here and be specific, the American Bar

Association when having their reception for the new president of the American Bar

Association and I forgotten the year, you might remember when the American Bar

Association met in the city of Atlanta, we had a special election, city election called for

the afternoon they were having their reception. They were fixing to close down that

reception because at that reception they were going to serve beer and wine for the new

president of the American Bar Association and they had to go through all kinds of

shenanigans and convert that into what was supposedly a totally private party to

accomplish that, but, of course, many of the people who scheduled that association

meeting in the city of Atlanta were mad as hell that that type of issue was brought up in Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library their reception was fixing to be put in chaos. Now, it's those type of things that the

political system ought to be involved and make changes that benefit this city and

state.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: You know that law about wine and beer, would that only go until seven

o'clock.

SAVAGE: That would only go until seven o'clock, so anybody that was having a

major reception couldn't have any function until after seven or eight o'clock.

FLOCKS: Yes, after seven and most reception start at about six.

SAVAGE: Yes, and they start the reception about four or six or when they finished up

their business of the day.

FLOCKS: Sure, and dinner would be at seven, so it would be too late, then.

SAVAGE: They estimated the lost that year just in state income tax from closing

down the restaurants to wine and beer was like fifteen or twenty thousand dollars, which

is not very much, but I'm simply pointed out, not only do you make people mad who are

coming here with their conventions, but you can lose revenue. So it's a double source.

FLOCKS: So it's detrimental to the airport because them people don't want to use it.

SAVAGE: Or, no. They could have even closed down the loading of beer and wine

on those planes if they had really enforced this law on those election days. And what do

you think, how would Delta, Eastern, and Pan American and the people who are getting

on a plane to fly to London or Miami or Paris feel about not being able to have any booze

on the plane because you couldn't load it here in Atlanta on a local election day? Just

crazy.

FLOCKS: One of your bills specified that . . . Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: . . . that local city governments now can exempt and the city of Atlanta

has. So, on local elections you can go and get a drink in any of the restaurants in the city

of Atlanta. And the state of Georgia is getting a lot of sales tax from that.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: One of your most interesting bills, I thought, was one that authorized the

general assembly to perform marriage ceremonies?

SAVAGE: Oh, I did that on a fluke.

FLOCKS: (laughing) I wondered about that one.

SAVAGE: That was my fun bill one year. And I have to tell you this. That bill got

a lot of interest on two things. There were a lot of members of the General Assembly

who thought they were going to making some money marrying people and they were a lot

of folks in the General Assembly who preached almost as a sideline activity. And they

really liked that because in that, that was going to make them legal to marry people. But

do you know what the facts are? I had done research on the law of marrying people and

there are no qualifications for marrying people in Georgia, so the truth of the matter is

you or I or any member of the legislature in Georgia can marry anybody anytime you

want to today. I did that bill. That was a spoof.

FLOCKS: (laughing) Okay.

SAVAGE: That was to. . . . I never let people really understand that that was a spoof

that I had researched and introduced it because I knew that any member of the legislature

could marry people anyway.

FLOCKS: (laughing) I could show the list. You interviewed so many girls that was

really informative for me to go through the House Calendar. Let me just show the extent

of this. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: See, I was doing a lot of creative thinking about . . .

FLOCKS: This is from Mark. I told Mark that he got his name and birth date in this.

SAVAGE: This is him?

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: Yes. That's photocopied from the Official and Statistical Register.

SAVAGE: Right.

FLOCKS: And you can take that home with you to Mark.

SAVAGE: I'll take that to Mark, too. He was in the Official . . .

FLOCKS: Here you are. I think he'll appreciate that and . . .

SAVAGE: Those are the bills?

FLOCKS: Those are your bills.

SAVAGE: Yes. (pauses) The. . . .

FLOCKS: Sometimes those were introduced together with other people. They were

not all just in there.

SAVAGE: Right. You know one of the other things that I--a major bill that I worked

on a long time is that I had a bill in Georgia that the is trying to make . . .

FLOCKS: Oh, that's just a

SAVAGE: . . . And trying to make government really accountable. This is one of the

interesting things that I worked on for years and that is in the field of eye research and

Georgia, in the time that I was in the legislature, I introduced the first bill for corneal

removal and started working with the opthomology department at Emory University.

And when I left the legislature in 1982, there were more advances made in corneal

surgery in the state of Georgia than any other state in the Union.

FLOCKS: I found those fascinating. My father's an opthomologist and it is very Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library interesting.

SAVAGE: We had come from the very bottom in eye research to the very top and . . .

FLOCKS: Are there other states that allow that.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

SAVAGE: Well, what had happened, every year I update and give the opportunity for

people to use eye tissue in Georgia to benefit other people. And, of course, at first there

was a great outcry against doing anything to what they called mutilating dead bodies.

And, excuse me, for example, if you have somebody killed as a result of any type of

crime, et cetera, the state law required an autopsy and I finally got it across in the

legislature, if you're doing an autopsy anyway, why don't we do something in the way of

research to benefit folks that are blind. And the fascinating thing, when I first started

working with the department, they could only give sight to kids like who were three and

four years old and by the time I left the legislature in 1982, they were kids in Georgia who

were born blind, who, by the time that they were kids, had had all of this eye surgery and

could see and never knew that they were born blind. There was a remarkable . . .

FLOCKS: That's incredible.

SAVAGE: . . . change in this state and I'd even forgotten how much time and effort,

over the years, that I spent on corneal research in the legislature. And this state became

the leader as the results of that legislation. I'll tell you another fascinating thing that I

remember. I'm remembering some of the things that turned out so well. In the early

years in 19--like it was 1972--I got the idea that Georgia had so much diverse scenery that

we ought to be a leader in the making of movies in Georgia. I came up with the concept

of a movie commission for the state of Georgia and that got a lot of pooh-poohing in the

legislature and I had a hard time getting that through. And after I got it through, Jimmy Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library Carter got a fellow by the name of Ed Spivey and he, you named him as head as the

secretary of the commission and by 19--it was like 1975, Georgia was third or fourth in

the nation in making movies. They made something like seventy-five or eighty million

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

dollars worth of movies as a result of that commission that was formed. And Jimmy

Carter took that and really ran with it. He promoted that. We had people serving from

every congressional district in that court. But the corneal transplant, the amazing thing

was that this state would--the legislative process would find the--accept really world

leadership in one area on eye surgery, and that happened in Georgia.

FLOCKS: It looked to me like your bills that related to dentistry and medicine, you

didn't have much trouble at all.

SAVAGE: No, I developed a lot of and then, you know, I used to be so idealistic that I

rubbed a lot of folks wrong by saying, you know, how could you possibly against

something that you know is just right--that type of thing, but I learned how to work better

in the legislative process.

FLOCKS: Most of those bills were just passed almost unanimously.

SAVAGE: Yes, and I developed a lot of good friends and good contacts, that type of

thing. Another interesting--two other little interesting things, one I saw today and I

thought, well, you know, Rita might have, today we were coming from Ansley Mall and

there was a guy in a wheelchair who goes to Ansley Mall. And I asked Rita. I said,

"Rita, if you think that you're not lucky, look." Rita just came back from knee surgery

yesterday and I said, you know, "We complain about knee surgery and look here at this

guy confined to wheelchair." And we watched him and he was going home. Rita said,

"I see him frequently, he's not going to get into a car." I said, I asked, I said, "How could Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library he possibly get into a car?" And he went up to the intersection of Monroe and

Montgomery Ferry and I watched him. And a curb cuts in both of those streets. And

my bill required those curbs cuts to be put there that that guy in a wheelchair went down

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

one street and went up the curb cut on the other street. That was legislation and no curbs

came be built in Georgia anywhere in this state without curb cuts in them.

FLOCKS: I remember that bill. I didn't realize that was for handicap access. You

had another bill about handicap access, too.

SAVAGE: And it was interesting, once that bill passed the House, Max Cleland took

it in the Senate for me. He was in the Senate at that time and took bill and got it through

the Senate because he was interested in curb cuts. And I noticed you ride a bicycle

outside. I worked for a couple of years on trying to make this state more accessible to

people on bicycles and I finally passed another bill that you. . . . No curbs can be put in

the state of Georgia on any city or public streets anywhere unless they are put in

perpendicular to the curb. All of the curbs. All of the curb where the water and

drainage go through, if you put those in parallel, the front wheel of your bicycle falls

through. There have been many people hurt . . .

FLOCKS: Oh,

SAVAGE: . . . in Georgia because curbs, those curb cuts have been put in parallel, I

mean perpendicular to the curb. So there is a state law that I finally got through that you

can't put a curb grate in Georgia unless, now, I couldn't make it retroactive, even though

the city of Atlanta did go back and retro-fit many of their curbs where people ride so

many bicycles, because we've had a lot of accidents here.

FLOCKS: I'll tell George about that one. He's riding all over the city. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: Yes. And, so I have been real interested in that piece of legislation at one

time. Those were the type things that I, you know, . . .

FLOCKS: You got very interesting in education, too.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

SAVAGE: Yes, I think I shared with you that I was also, I notice here on, I tried to get

the state far more involved in preventive health measures, but I never was successful. I,

for example, I had a bill one time that I couldn't even pass to prevent smoking in

hospitals. I'm talking about in hospitals and the tobacco lobby was effective enough to

stop that. I had another bill, the first one of those types of bills, I was going to require

lobbyists to disclose the money that they spent is the legislative process while the

legislature was in session. And you can imagine how far that bill got. I simply was

going to say to you, registered as a lobbyist and you spent money when the legislature

was in session, you had to make a record of the money that you spent and who you spent

it on.

FLOCKS: I know lobbyists were strong enough to . . .

SAVAGE: Oh, yes. Gosh! Plus a lot of the members of the legislature who would

benefit so much from the lobbyists they didn't want it passed because . . .

FLOCKS: So, what do the lobbyists do? They would be giving various legislators . .

SAVAGE: Oh, gosh! You can somebody anything. You can give them clothes or

you can give them a car. You can give them anything. And I simply wanted all of those

type of things made a public record and I thought that would make government a little

more open, a little fairer, a little bit more above board, but I also was on the education

committee and I spent years, literally years. My sister is a teacher in the city of Atlanta.

Her husband is a teacher in the city of Atlanta. My wife's two brothers teach in a small, Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library rural county in Georgia and my basic belief was that this state ought to develop a quality

educational system and I think I told for the first four of five years I'd vote against the

budget because we never even had Kindergartens in Georgia and I thought that that was

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

just a basic step towards a quality educational environment. And I never saw this state

make a commitment to really be a leader in the educational process. And, of course, the

fascinating thing, to me, that you really couldn't even get the teachers union in the state

involved. What you could get them involved in was raising teachers' salaries, but if you

really, for example; I had a bill where we were going to pick in each school system the

outstanding teacher of the year and give her a thousand dollar increase in pay from that

moment on out of the state budget. So each year, at least one teacher in a local school

system would be recognized as an outstanding teacher. Do you know what they said?

"How can you possibly, how can you have criteria to select the outstanding teacher?" I

said, "I'll tell you how you can do that. You can take the dumbest two kids in any school

system that I've ever been in and they can tell you whose the best teacher in the school."

And it's obvious to me in every school system I've ever been in who the outstanding

teachers are. Everybody knows. The other teachers themselves know. I said, "You

could even select the other teachers select the teacher of the year." But if you got

involved at any process that would demand excellence form the students or the teachers,

you were in trouble. The only thing that you could get unanimity on was increasing the

teachers' salaries. That was the only issue that you could really get the educational

process involved in. Nothing testing even the students or demanding. . . . You know, I

warned you. I got all these figures from the black Muslims. They have no football, no

basketball, they say they don't run a baby sitting service. So you know black Muslims in Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library America, they only go to school from nine to twelve because they don't have all of these

extracurricular activities. I said, "But you can test black Muslims on any test that you

want to give them and they don't make any excuses for being black or being deprived or

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

anything else and they test as well as any children in the country, black or white, test on

the comparable test comparable age because they send them to school, they've got

disciplined and they teach them to read and write and add and spell and communicate and

those type of things that are factors that are important to people's lives forever. And I

like that type of school system and I think it can produce a quality student and is really

not dependant upon the amount of salary that pay the teacher. And even if you were

going to assure that the teacher could read and write, you'd be in real trouble in this state.

(pauses) In fact, I've talked to my sister and other people in education and they tell me,

essentially that you can't get rid of the sorriest teacher you have under any conditions in

Georgia.

FLOCKS: I've heard similar things about the Merit System of Georgia, not for

teachers, but just in state governmental positions that the state gets stuck with a lot of

really crumby workers.

SAVAGE: Oh, yes.

FLOCKS: And they can't get rid of them.

SAVAGE: Yes. In fact, the most fascinating thing that you and I talked about is this

system of where somebody is so sorry in Georgia that they get fired, they immediately

start drawing a hundred per cent of their pension from the state of Georgia or this type of

thing that you and I talked about a few minutes where Tom Moreland, who I personally

admire and liked, retired and got a higher salary, eighty-nine . . . (tape runs out) I'll Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library give you, just, I will come with some other creative--I used to come up with all type of

creative things. I noticed one time, I got into all of this junk food, just trying to eliminate

some of the junk food that we sell in schools and . . .

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: Oh, I saw that!

SAVAGE: . . . and, you know, that included, unfortunately, Coca-Cola. And you

know what the Coca-Cola lobbying in this state. And I went to the Coca-Cola College,

Emory, but the fact of the matter, even, you know, we're talking about preventive health

measures and if you're teaching kids in grammar school that the break is a Coca-Cola and

a piece of candy, what type of health, preventive health are you teaching? Not very

good. (laughter)

FLOCKS: And as a dentist, you must not have wanted them to be out there chewing

gum, either.

SAVAGE: I came up, for example, I'll give you an example. Talking about

retirement, I was going to exempt all of the Georgia state employees from social security

where they could be on a private. See, we contribute fourteen per cent in Georgia of

every person's salary who works for the state to the social security system. I could have

made hundreds of people and then thousands of people and then tens of thousands of

people who work for the state of Georgia rich in twenty-five years if I've of taken the

fourteen per cent of that money and create and invested it and gotten back nine per cent a

year for twenty-five years on fourteen per cent of their money. I'd have made some

people, excuse me, some of these people cutting the grass on the highway making fifteen

thousand dollars a year on good, conservative, proven investments over and they work for

the state of Georgia for thirty-five years, I'd have them rich just by transferring them from Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library having to pay social security to a personal. I wouldn't have cost the state of Georgia

another penny. I'd have just changed the method by what we did with their money. And

the other interesting thing, if you had worked, I was going to invest anybody's money the

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

first year. If you worked for the state of Georgia for one year and you made ten thousand

dollars and you left the state of Georgia, you'd have got a fourteen hundred dollar bonus

when you left. If you worked for the state of Georgia for two years, you would have

gotten a twenty-eight hundred dollar bonus plus accrued interest. Every person in this

state would of had their own personal, individual, retirement system based on the number

of years that they worked for the state and the salary. These people in education who are

making, even the teachers who are making thirty thousand dollar a year now. Under my

system of retirement they would have been getting thirty-two, forty-two hundred dollars a

year now contributed to their retirement. Five years at forty-two hundred dollars a year

is twenty thousand dollars plus. I'm not talking about the Georgia retirement system.

I'm talking about the retirement they get. That's on top of this fourteen per cent. I'd

have some teachers rich when they left the state of Georgia.

FLOCKS: That might have made a big different in the educational systems. I think

one of the biggest problems for education is that women has had other opportunities open

to them and that in the past really bright women didn't do many things besides teaching

and nursing. Once other opportunities became open, they left it and the good people

weren't going into teaching anymore.

SAVAGE: And especially on any business in the world. I'm a dentist. Do you want

to go see somebody whose a good dentist or a mediocre dentist or a sorry dentist? And

do you think a good dentist ought to earn more income than a sorry dentist? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library FLOCKS: Yes.

SAVAGE: The only system in the world that I have ever seen devised to pay

everybody the same regardless of your ability or talent is a payment for teaches

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

everywhere. And to say that everybody is mediocre as a teacher absolutely prevents

those people who are outstandingly capable who want to be teachers from staying in that

field. Or if they are exceptional year after year after year after year and they are paid the

same salary as the sorry do-do year after year after year is amazing. And even some of our

requirements for being teachers I wanted to change. For example, you could have a

Ph.D. in finance from Yale University and can't teach in the Georgia public school

system.

FLOCKS: I know I couldn't teach in the public school system.

SAVAGE: You can't. You're perfect. You got a Ph.D. in History and you can't

teach history in the Georgia school system.

FLOCKS: No, I mean all the . . .

SAVAGE: . . . all this crap to join the Union and I also asked the question. Oh, they

think you have to have practice teaching to teach. The only thing that you have to have

to teach is knowledge and ability and the ability to communicate and you don't get by

practice teaching or you don't get that by taking educational courses. I can tell you that

I've never taken an educational course. I taught at Emory University dental school and I

thought that I was a very provocative, creative teacher because I was interested in my

field and I was interesting in what was happening and I was interesting in making the

students think. I was interesting in them learning in getting better and teaching that

attitude and that's what education is about anyway. And if you can find people like that Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library to go into your teaching system, you are fortunate and it has nothing to do with how many

educational courses they have taken.

FLOCKS: Why do you think Georgia hasn't come up with any better system?

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

SAVAGE: We're in a union where the only thing that the teachers and the

administrators of the educational system are interesting in is. . . . I think I told you. We

were sitting talking and I told that I was sorry to read this but there was either a

psychiatrist or a very prominent philosopher or something that who said that "the two

greatest emotions that motivate all human beings and all history are fear and greed."

And teachers simply have been greedy in relationship to protecting incompetent, sorry

teachers in this state and the only major issue they've ever been interesting in and willing

to support is a pay increase for themselves. So, that's true in relationship to the

education. Can you imagine educational system in this state where we pay good teachers

more than we pay sorry teachers, that we would have basic requirements for every

student? I'll give another thing that worried me. Do you know that the state of Georgia

was spending more money. We were sending some kids in Georgia out of this state for

special, retarded children spending up to forty-two and three and four thousand dollars a

year for their care and never spending, never spending that type of money in any way,

shape, form, or fashion on the really bright, exceptional students or teachers? Never

spending that amount of money. Spending it in the most retarded, incapacitated citizens

that we had making that type of investment in them when its known they can never do

anything. They can't feed themselves, clothe themselves, do anything. We sent them

out of state to other institutions that theoretically could care better for these type of people

than we had for the state of Georgia and paid for it out of the state treasury and never Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library spend that type of money, never on exceptional teachers or exceptional students.

FLOCKS: That all?

SAVAGE: Crazy priorities.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: Yes. (pauses) Which representatives did you work with most often?

SAVAGE: It totally would depend on the issues. Because I was from a rural

background, I always felt very. . . . Interestingly enough, I always felt very comfortable

with the rural members of the legislature and you and I are sitting here in one of the most

sophisticated areas of the South. I think Ansley Park is probably not only one of the

most sophisticated, but one of the most desirable places in the South to live. And

sometimes I used to think that is was ironic that a person that is so much from the

country, as I am, and who so, I like Charley Pride and Willie Nelson and dirt roads and

pick-up trucks and Budweiser beer and chain saws and cows in the field and fishing and

all of that type of thing that I represented this very sophisticated, cosmopolitan,

highly-cultural district in the state legislature. I thought it used to be. I used to think

about that, ponder it at times.

FLOCKS: Did you work with other Atlanta representatives?

SAVAGE: Oh, yes. I had no trouble working with all of the members of the Atlanta

delegation. One of the more effective people in the state legislature, of course, was

chairman of our Atlanta delegation at that time, Sidney Marcus and Sidney had that

ability to never offend anybody and that's a great asset in the political process. And he

never took. See, I'd get involved in causes and bills that ought to be passed, but couldn't

be passes and Sidney never did any of those type of things. And that was smart for his

effective in the political and if I were advising a young legislator, I would tell him to do Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library those type of things if he really wants to stay. There has been a philosophy in the

political process: you've got to go along to get along. And that's true. You can't be an

image breaker or an type of person and do well in the political process.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: How were you treated as a Republican? When you were a Republican,

did the Democrats treat you differently?

SAVAGE: Not to any great extent. And the other thing that I would tell anybody in

the political precess, changing parties is always a mistake. You're hated by the people

you leave and held in suspect by the people you join.

FLOCKS: So you're sorry that you changed parties?

SAVAGE: Well, I'm simply saying that I was. . . . No, I don't guess I'm sorry. I was

totally frustrated by the inability of the Republican Party to effect or represent any of

these type of creative changes that I spent twenty years. . . . And we'd go to Republican

meetings and they'd be talking about issues such as having to withhold social security on

maids' salaries that work in houses and that type of thing. I couldn't believe that that

would be a major issue to be talked about, you know. I just was frustrated with the

Republican approach to party politics and never involved a constructive changing of this

government for the better. I just was fed-up with that type of just talking politics, I

called it, where you never do anything. But I simply just should have dropped out of the

political process rather than change parties. The other interesting thing--I don't know

whether you know this

FLOCKS: Drop out sooner, you mean?

SAVAGE: Yes. I should have dropped out sooner.

FLOCKS: When you left politics, was that with the campaign at the end for Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library lieutenant governor or did you only run . . ?

SAVAGE: No. I ran for lieutenant governor in 1974.

FLOCKS: Just in 1974?

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

SAVAGE: Yes. And then didn't run in 1982.

FLOCKS: I couldn't remember when you campaign for . . .

SAVAGE: Yes. And I could have been easily elected again in 1982 because I had

just beaten the guy who the seat in a much more difficult election in 1980.

FLOCKS: Oh, everybody in the neighborhood knew you would have won . . .

SAVAGE: Yes.

FLOCKS: . . . in 1982 if you . . .

SAVAGE: I'd have won in 1982 easily.

FLOCKS: . . . if you had run.

SAVAGE: Yes, and it was a non-presidential election which was far better for me.

In 1980 they even sent Bob Dole letters from him and they had every Republican gun in

the country because I'm still the only person whose ever changed parties in this state that's

been elected in the next election. I don't whether that will happen some time in the

future, but, at least, it hadn't been done by any other person. There's no other person

who's changed parties and then been elected to . . .

FLOCKS: Hal Suit changed parties, but he wasn't elected.

SAVAGE: He wasn't elected, no. I talking about who was elected official and

changed parties and then was elected the. . . . So, that sure and you pay too much

emotional, you pay to much emotional price for something of that nature, too, Sally.

(long pause) Are you feeling okay? (longer pause) Do you want me to help you with Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library that, Sally?

FLOCKS: No, I've got it.

SAVAGE: Are you okay?

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: I'm fine. Thanks.

SAVAGE: All right. We were talking about changing parties. Now, I was telling

you how much emotional, especially in at election time when you are seeing your friend,

you know, you've left their party and you've done so many things with them. It hurts. It

hurts emotionally to do that type of thing and it's too much of a price to pay. Being in

politics in not worth that type of local turmoil.

FLOCKS: I don't think I would want to . . .

SAVAGE: No.

FLOCKS: . . . be in politics with all of that.

SAVAGE: And it's (pauses) I guess I'm happier, emotionally out of politics than I

was. In fact, I know I am happier out of politics than I was in it. (pauses) And I don't

regret, you know, making that decision not to run again.

FLOCKS: So, after getting out of politics, you don't look back and say, "Gee, I

wished I hadn't done that" and think . . .

SAVAGE: No.

FLOCKS: . . . "I was running for lieutenant governor."?

SAVAGE: No, I, you know, miss the political process and enjoy all of the friendships

and all of the opportunities I had to know people in this state. It's really nice to be able to

pick up a paper every day and know, personally, the people that you are reading about in

the paper. It's a nice relationship to have with the community in which you live. You Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library also as you get older--and I'm not stretching that point or anything. I 'm simply saying I

realize, from a philosophical standpoint that I'm not going to live forever and I think you

have to get older to accept that. And there's just a lot of personal things that I want to do

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

with my life and I don't want anybody else dictating what I can do or not do. And you

can't really be an effective political person if you want to do everyday what you want to

do with your time. You've got to go to meetings that you might not want to go to or to

breakfasts that you might not want to go to or you'll have to sit in committees and listen

to people who you know are not too bright to testify or who you don't think are adding too

much to the discussion and, you know, you might sit there all day and hear from these

type of people. But if you're out of politics, you don't have to do that. So it's a nicer

way to live.

FLOCKS: Yes, and your life is a little more under your own control.

SAVAGE: It is.

FLOCKS: When you're having your dental practice, you can decide how many hours .

. .

SAVAGE: . . . or days a week and you certainly try to be nice to everybody, which I

really want to be and you certainly don't conflict with people. And in the political

process, if you take an emotional issue like abortion that we've mentioned, gosh, you get

all type of pros and cons and emotional involvement and demonstrations and I just don't

want to fuss and fight with people for the rest of my life. I don't want to be conniving

against folks for the rest of my life either. you have to do a lot of that in politics. If

you're running against somebody or they're running against you and, you know, you have

to be right under them trying to out-maneuver them and that type of thing. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library FLOCKS: Who was your favorite governor while you were in?

SAVAGE: Gosh, I've simply served with Jimmy Carter and with, let's see, George

Busbee and Jimmy Carter were the two governors: Busbee for eight years and Jimmy

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

Carter for four years. And I guess, you know, it was interesting, I admired Carter's

intentions, but I felt like he was very, very ineffective as a governor. I thought he was

very ineffective as a president. Busbee was just a good run-of-the-mill, you know, man a

ship-type of governor and Joe Frank, that I spent ten years in the legislature with as our

incumbent governor is probably even more, just hold the ships than Busbee. Neither one

of them are creative thinkers, creative individuals. They are not people you'd enjoy

sitting around having a beer or a glass of wine and talking history or philosophy or

approaches or attitudes with.

FLOCKS: But Joe Frank won't drink, will he?

SAVAGE: Oh, no.

FLOCKS: (laughs)

SAVAGE: He's a very descent and a very nice guy, very, very, nice descent guy.

Busbee is, too. They're just not creative thinkers. They're not creative leaders.

FLOCKS: (pauses) What was it like switching from the most impoverished area of

Atlanta to one of the wealthiest areas?

SAVAGE: That was a fascinating experience. In the area of the South side of

Atlanta, I really could help a lot of people with a lot of things, personal things, just help

with something. And most of the people I represented in this district were brighter or

smarter or more influential or wealthier or could help themselves better than I could help

them. I'm simply saying that there was a great deal more demand for even helping Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library somebody getting their income tax done appropriately or how to even get their water bill

paid or how you even get a kid in college or something of that nature that really never

came up. In this district was one of the most enlightened capable group of people in

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

America.

FLOCKS: Well, there seemed to be a pretty great interest in you and we moved here

in late 1977 and I remember at that time they were a lot

of people that were going over to your house for different affairs.

SAVAGE: Yes. That was typical of the type of involvement that I always had. I

would have town hall meetings and meetings on various issues and a lot of participation

in the political process and a lot of letters and a lot of information going out to people,

continual involvement. But that took a lot of time and effort. Gosh, that took time and

effort! See, I always tried to answer every telephone call that day or write every letter

that got to me that day and that was a lot of pressure, a lot of energy that I'm glad I don't

have to do anymore.

FLOCKS: What kind of dental practice do you do?

SAVAGE: The main, interestingly enough, the main thing I do is help people have a

prettier smile with the new type of cosmetic dentistry that you are seeing a lot of. And

people come to me from, for example, like that crack that's between your upper left two

front teeth. (Extended discussion of Sally Flocks' teeth)

FLOCKS: What were your committee assignments in the House other than the

education committee?

SAVAGE: Health and ecology and education and human relations. Human relations

was chaired by Mr. Richard Dent from Augusta, one of the nicest, most gracious, black Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library men that I've ever known from any place in the world. And interestingly enough, Mr.

Dent was so much respected and admired and he was in his seventies, that on a couple of

very important occasions in the legislature, he could change the vote on very important

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

pieces of legislation. He was a remarkable human being. He's no longer in the House.

He's deceased, now. But it was an example of where, when somebody is much admired.

By the way, I served on the charter commission. I think we talked about that in the city

of Atlanta. I helped write the legislation to create a new charter for the city of Atlanta

and I spent two years working on the instrument that governs this city today.

FLOCKS: I saw that a lot of your bills had to do with the new city charter for Atlanta

and also for the new East Point charter. Was your district 104 in the East Point area?

SAVAGE: It wasn't in the East Point area. (pauses) I've even forgotten about this

one. You know, eventually, we rewrote the Constitution of the state of Georgia and I

was appointed by George Busbee to be on that Constitutional Revision Committee and in

1974 or three--I've forgotten this--I had introduced a constitutional convention bill for the

state of Georgia where we were going to allow the member of the legislature to be on the

Constitutional Revision Committee and then we were going to select, I think, ten

outstanding citizens from each district. And essentially, that's what Busbee did in his

second term as governor. He had a Constitutional Revision Committee comprised of

outstanding citizens, members of the legislature and they worked for two years on

revising the Constitution and we passed a new Constitution for the state of Georgia. And

really there was no difference, I don't know whether, I just saw the years before, we

certainly had a need. we had a very antiquated Constitution in the state of Georgia and Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library we really needed to update the Constitution of all that kind of antiquated language,

outdated provisions. It was a very unwieldy constitution and, essentially, that thing was

done. The Constitution was re-written. I was about seven or eight years ahead of that.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

The presidential primary going towards a southern convention is eventually being done

this year. I think I introduced that the first time in 1973, so thirteen years ago, I was

trying to move Georgia into. . . . And I knew Georgia would be the center of that

southern convention. I knew that every presidential candidate would set up their

southern headquarters in Georgia, that their news staff, all of their transportation, et

cetera, would be run out of the city of Atlanta. Now, that meant that every person who

was ever elected president again, would have an intimate relationship with the city of

Atlanta, the state of Georgia, and the South. And that's exactly what this southern

presidential primary, that's going to be the effect that it would have. And I'm simply

saying that if they had followed my suggestions, we'd have been that thirteen years ago.

FLOCKS: That's why I think of you as liberal as conservative, that you were ahead of

everybody else.

SAVAGE: And in most of the issues. (pauses)

FLOCKS: When you were introducing . . .

SAVAGE: Back in even 1973, I was going to require lobbyists to register and now

that's being done. See, when you go to the state, now, when the legislature's in session, I

think was done like in 1980. So, seven years before they required lobbyists to register, I

had the bill there requiring them to register. And then, for years, I had the bill to require

them to disclose the money they spend when the legislature's in session. And, of course,

that's still never been passed. It might not ever be passed. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library FLOCKS: Now, if you introduced a bill in one session and nothing happened, would

you just frequently introduce it the next year.

SAVAGE: Many, I'd come back. The fascinating other thing, I'll give you an

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

example of the type of thing I did. I was going to require the state insurance department

in 1973 to prepare a public report showing the cost of an average fifty thousand dollar

house in Georgia for the fire insurance and liability coverage in that house by every

insurance company that was doing business from the state of Georgia. Now, this meant

that any citizen in the state of Georgia could have called the insurance commissioner's

office and found out in his city or county which insurance company was giving the most

coverage for the least amount of premiums. Now, who do you think stopped that?

FLOCKS: I don't know.

SAVAGE: The insurance companies because they didn't want . . .

FLOCKS: Lobbyists?

SAVAGE: Yes. They didn't want to be compared as to which company was issuing

the best policy and doing it for the least amount of money, but don't you think that's a type

of thing would benefit everybody in the state of Georgia?

FLOCKS: Sure.

SAVAGE: Yes.

FLOCKS: Absolutely.

SAVAGE: Wouldn't you like . . .

FLOCKS: That would be more competitive.

SAVAGE: Wouldn't you like to know here in Atlanta who's providing the cheapest

insurance and the best coverage for this house that you're in right now that you could Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library buy? See, that bill didn't get very far, either. I was going to base it on the premiums

that they paid.

FLOCKS: You had a lot of bills to change the election code.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

SAVAGE: Yes. I was really deeply involved in trying to make the election process

far more open and accountable in Georgia than it's ever been. We still don't require

people to register. You remember one time I ran in 1972 as a Democrat and a

Republican, won both primaries, and was elected as a Democrat.

FLOCKS: I didn't know that, that you ran as . . .

SAVAGE: And the only thing I was saying as a matter of principle was that if you

don't require people in Georgia to register by party, then how can you possibly prohibit

them from voting against everybody who's voting for, you know, everybody who's

running. For example, if I were a Republican and you went to vote and you vote in the

Democratic primary and you and I are friends, you couldn't vote for me even if I had

opposition in the Republican primary, right? You couldn't.

FLOCKS: This is if you are a . . .

SAVAGE: No, when you go to vote in Georgia you have to go, when you register,

you are registered only as a voter, correct?

FLOCKS: Right.

SAVAGE: Well, if you are registered only as a voter and you go to vote, the first

thing they tell you is you can only vote in the Republican or Democratic primary. Well,

you're not registered as a Republican or a Democrat. Now, if they are going to only

the primary, for one candidate for one office, right? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library FLOCKS: Right.

SAVAGE: That was . . .

FLOCKS: That makes sense to me.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

SAVAGE: Yes, it makes sense to anybody who is a registered voter and they want to

vote for everybody they want to vote for and you can't do that in Georgia and you still

can't do that in Georgia.

FLOCKS: (pauses) It's a strange system. George is a Republican and I'm a

Democrat and . . .

SAVAGE: See, you and George can't even go. You might have a person in the

Republican Party that you wanted to vote for and he may have a person in the Democratic

Party that he wants to vote for, but you can't do that in the primary.

FLOCKS: No, not in the primary. In the general election you can always cancel

SAVAGE: That's right. But that's what I'm simply saying. Let's say that there was a

presidential candidate running next year that you both were in agreement on in the

Democratic primary. Well, George can't go and vote for that presidential candidate in

the Democratic primary. Even, so Georgia either ought to have party registration and

independent registration or do something to change the system to make it more

accountable to simply people as registered voters. (pauses) See, this is the date for the

Georgia presidential primary in 1973. And exactly what I was doing was trying to move

Georgia, at that time, to the same date as Florida and I was trying to do that in 1973. If

Georgia and Florida had had the same and I was going. Florida was earlier, so I was

going to back Georgia up to Florida. Even Georgia and Florida would of had a Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library tremendous impact if both of those primaries were held the same day. And then I

thought Alabama, South Carolina, and the other southern states would join with us then.

And Tom Murphy has made that happen today. We talked about the curbs on city

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

streets. That was in 1973.

FLOCKS: Yes. (long pause) Your bills that focus on the cities or on the

metropolitan areas where the population if greater than 150,000 thousand, it looked like

most of those passed. I would have guess, not without knowing anything in advance, I

would have guessed that they wouldn't have passed just because I suspect that the

legislature is antagonistic to the city, but you were very successful in getting things that

focus on the city, you had some with regard to pensions for firemen and policemen and

city officers that specifically were aimed at places with populations greater than 150,000.

SAVAGE: Most of those bills were done when I came back to the legislation, I think

in 1977 or 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982 and by that time I had developed a lot of

friendships and I'll give you some examples. I remember our chairman of vehicles, that

curb cut bill that I had that I told you about and also that bill requiring bicycle grates, both

of those bills--I got up one night at two o'clock in the morning and met his wife at my

dental office and treated her for a toothache and didn't charge him and she told him that,

"Then, from now on, anything that John introduces, you better help him with it." And I

did a lot of nice things for other members of the legislature in that respect of always

trying to be available here in the city of Atlanta to do anything that I could to make their

stay here pleasant or if they ever had a dental problem or anything that I could help with, I

did it immediately. I went to my office, I remember one Sunday afternoon, Tom Murphy

had a little toothache and I was there in a second to help him. And I remember Alveda Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library King Beale's one Sunday afternoon, who was eleven, who fell off of his bicycle and

and her son Jarrett who quite a prominent, Atlanta actor broke two of his front teeth

off one Sunday afternoon and I went down and took care of that and repaired those front

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

teeth and that type of thing. So, I did a lot of trying to be a good friend to people in the

legislature and that helped a lot on those topics. It helped whole lot.

FLOCKS: You were off for two years in the mid-1970's.

SAVAGE: Right.

FLOCKS: 1975 or 1976? Did you miss serving at that time?

SAVAGE: I did. I missed serving and I missed the legislature acutely and really

thought that I would not get another chance because we had moved, then, into this district

twenty-five, which was represented by Mike Egan, who at that time was a Republican

minority leader in the House. And the most unusual thing happened. He was appointed

one of the Assistant Attorney Generals by Jimmy Carter who just had been elected

President in 1976. so, that meant in early 1977 Mike Egan, a Republican was appointed

Assistant Attorney General by the newly elected Democratic President from Georgia.

And that's the way this district opened up again and I had an opportunity to run from this

district and serve again.

FLOCKS: How did you decide to move into Ansley Park?

SAVAGE: Rita had done so many things with me campaigning before, I said--you

know, I had spent a year in hiding running for lieutenant governor and so I said, "You

find wherever you want a house and if I can afford to buy it, we'll buy it." That's the way

I got to Ansley Park.

FLOCKS: Well, Mark must have been of kindergarten age about then. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: He was.

FLOCKS: Does he go to private school?

SAVAGE: He goes to public school.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: Public school?

SAVAGE: Yes.

FLOCKS: I noticed that around in, well, throughout your legislative career, you've

been interested in education and the earliest years, I seemed like it focused on getting that

Kindergarten and then in your later years, starting around 1978, it looked like there were

more that were aimed at the overall educational system. And I was curious whether

Mark, being in school at that time, made more issues.

SAVAGE: Well, it wasn't that. I was simply trying to focus on a--I was simply trying

to focus on what I thought was the most important issue in Georgia. And it's fascinating

that Joe Frank Harris, who never had any interest to my knowledge when he was in the

House, passed Q.E.B. as governor. And I never remember Joe Frank and he was

Chairman of the Appropriations taking any type of leadership position in any educational

issue in his entire tenure in the House, either to help fund it or to try to make the system

better in any respect. I simply was trying to focus, I guess, on the belief I had that

education probably ought to be the most important thing that a political process

participates in and that is to provide this state with a first-class quality educational

system. And that's was kind of the underlying theme, but I can assure you that I never

got anywhere on that and our Education Committee never took leadership on educational

issues.

FLOCKS: Who was chairman of that? Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: Ben Ross was and Ben Ross never rocked the boat, just give them the

same budget that they requested and never really questioned why they were doing

something or how we were doing it or why we were doing it or whether it could be done

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

better. It is interesting, the new educational chairman, Bill Magnum, from DeKalb

County, is really trying raise some legitimate issues on quality education and I wish him

success and our friends in the legislature. He's a patient of mine. It's been also

interesting--I keep up with probably as much of the legislative process because I see so

many of the legislators as patients.

FLOCKS: So you are keeping up pretty much, pretty closely with what's going on?

SAVAGE: Yes. Many of the secretaries at the State Capitol and many of the people

in the government, there, I see as patients, as dental patients. And so they keep me

advised on what's happening and who's doing what and many of the legislators.

FLOCKS: Do you try to advise them on what to do?

SAVAGE: No, it's friendship and just talk like we talk. And it's a nice relationship to

have.

FLOCKS: I was thinking of myself and how it would be looking backwards at

something that has gotten out. I wouldn't want to have that advisory role. I think it

would be hard to keep my mouth shut.

SAVAGE: (pauses) I, you know, had a lot of close friends in the legislature, people

that I was very close to. Still have many friends in there that I'm close to that I admire.

FLOCKS: Did you work with Clint Deveaux much?

SAVAGE: I like Clint Deveaux. He was a very bright member of the legislature.

FLOCKS: We like him a lot, too. He lived right across the street from us. Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library SAVAGE: That's right. Awfully, awfully bright legislator for Georgia. He wasn't

elected to Congress, as you saw. You know he got out of the legislature and ran for

Congress.

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

FLOCKS: Oh, I didn't know that's why he got out.

SAVAGE: He got out and ran. And I hated to see him get out of the elective process.

He was typical of some of the really bright people who left the legislature for reason or

the other. And I honestly, in retrospect, don't know that the Georgia House in a

institution that really bright, innovative, creative, people are comfortable in at the present

time. And I think that they feel stifled and they want to do something else, whether it be

Sam Nunn wanting to run state-wide and serve in the United States Senate or whether it

be Clint Deveaux who wanted to leave and go to Congress or. . . . Mike Nichols was a

bright, young, representative at one time who simply just left the political process. It's a

dead end street for many bright, young people.

FLOCKS: Well, do you think that two months limitation has a fair amount to do with

that?

SAVAGE: I don't think that's necessarily the case because the type of really bright,

creative people that you would hope to get would probably have some type of job or

profession or something of that nature that they would need to participate in. I'm kind of

the old school that political service ought to be almost a contribution to the society in

which we live. I don't like the concept of highly paid, very well endowed and entrenched

legislators. I like citizen, active, politicians who serve a short period of time and then

who would have to go back to making a living again where they don't get locked in with

vested interests, locked in with certain lobbyists, locked in with either the dentist or the Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library medical profession or the legal profession. And what happens is, with any of these

groups, you know, I felt like sometime that I'd become a creature of even the medical and

dental profession because I had so many friends as dentists and physicians that it was hard

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

for me to ever even consider their legislation on a fair and equitable basis because so

many of these people has helped me in campaigns and contributed to my campaigns.

And so I think this is exactly what's happening to Congress, now, with all of the pacts. I

think the most creative and innovative thing that we could do to improve the quality of

our government would be to have a President who was . . . (tape off)

SAVAGE: . . . accountable and responsible and less at the dictates of any special

interest so that you could get people in a position of political power who would have no

other political gains to be made by voting a certain way other than their conscience. And

certainly ought to be the case for the President.

FLOCKS: You had a lot of bills regarding dentistry. Was that because you wanted it

better regulated or were you . . .

SAVAGE: I really . . .

FLOCKS: . . . asking you to.

SAVAGE: Some of both. I really felt, for example--you wouldn't know this, but I

was responsible for the first black dentist for being a member of the American Dental

Association. I was responsible for the first black dentist being a member of the State

Board of Dental Examiners. I tried to do things to make our profession a more open and

better profession in the state and had good support from the dentistry in most all of these

things. They, fortunately, no dentist got pensions from the state of Georgia. No dentist

was making money from the state of Georgia and that type of thing. So, most of my Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library financial support came from a group of people that enabled me to be a very independent

member of the legislative process.

FLOCKS: Well, some of your bills where they regarded dentistry were authorizing

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

the board to punish . . .

SAVAGE: Yes, and to . . .

FLOCKS: . . . and safeguarding those . . .

SAVAGE: Yes.

FLOCKS: . . . who were testifying.

SAVAGE: Correct. I was trying to make--I was trying to do anything possible to

make our profession a better profession, not to protect those dentists who were not

capable of practicing well in the state of Georgia. And we accomplish lots in the dental

profession in the years. We got a very, probably one of the better dental laws in the

country in Georgia. We got one of the better group of dentists in the country in this

state. Part of that is the fact that we've had probably the best dental school in the South,

Emory University, for years, which is now gone. But then, the Medical College of

Georgia of dental school has been a very outstanding institution, so we've had two really

good educational centers improving the quality of dentistry in this state. And that's been

a great benefit to the quality of health care in Georgia. So that's been one of the. . . . In

talking about improving the institution in Georgia, I really think our state government

would be better if we, for example, the lieutenant governor is the presiding officer in the

Senate. I don't know whether you noticed, I've had a bill before where the governor,

lieutenant governor would run in tandem where they would work together as a team

where the Senate would then elect its own president as a presiding officer and that person Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library would be prohibited from serving more than two or four years. Either one of those

would be compatible with me. I would apply that same thing to the House. You'd have

a speaker and that speaker could serve more than two or four years. And look what that

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

would do to open up the process to bright, young people who feel like, "I want to be a

part. I want to be able to go in." And we might have had a far better educational

system. We might of had a far more progressive or fair tax system. We might of had

lobbyists that would had been required if you had the sharing of power in this state. The

system would be more responsive to citizen input than it is because all the time that I've

been in Georgia state government and participating in it the power was shared by only a

very, very few people. And in the House two or three people almost determined, I'd say,

a hundred per cent of the important decisions that were made there and fifty per cent of

the non-important decisions. It was not an open participatory process. If the speaker

and the speaker has so much power.

FLOCKS: Well, why does the speaker keep getting re-elected?

SAVAGE: Gosh, if you appointed every chairman and every sub-chairman and you

held total power, there's no way that that system would ever unseat the person who holds

all of the power. That system, and it's not just Tom Murphy. You could never defeat

anybody as speaker of the Georgia legislature under the present system of power that that

person holds.

FLOCKS: People would be afraid to vote against him?

SAVAGE: Certainly. How could you possibly vote for that system?

FLOCKS: The legislators couldn't unionize and say what's overthrown?

SAVAGE: You've got more than a majority of the people that he appoints. You got Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library more than a majority of the legislators that he appoints to effective, important positions in

the House. So, how could you possibly upset a system that would jeopardize the power

that the people beneath him has even though it's very limited? And because the speaker

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

has so much power, people in the House are really, really very afraid even to vote their

convictions if it would be against him on a particular piece of legislation because they

might not get that appointment to the Ways and Means or Appropriations.

FLOCKS: Those are the most popularity?

SAVAGE: Well, those are the most powerful: The Ways and Means and the

Appropriations and Rules. Those are the three most powerful committees. And if you

don't vote with the speaker, you'll never be with one of those committees.

FLOCKS: Were you on any of those?

SAVAGE: No.

FLOCKS: I didn't think so.

SAVAGE: You can't get on any of those committees if you voted against the budget.

You can't show the type of independence that I demonstrated on occasion after occasion

to. . . . And, you know, as I say, if I went back in the House, I don't know whether I

would show that independence.

FLOCKS: You might go along with it?

SAVAGE: And then, eventually, you'd be more influential and powerful because you

would have an opportunity to get to be one of the. . . . If the system were to change, you

might even get an opportunity to be the speaker, but you certainly have to be on the inside

tract when that opportunity came. You couldn't be outside looking in.

FLOCKS: And what about your campaign for lieutenant governor? Was that an Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library attempt to get more power over on the inside?

SAVAGE: I thought that I really thought, since I had won such a difficult campaign in

the House, that I might could surprise people in the state and run for the lieutenant

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

governor and they did not get too many people. I thought if I ran for really a major office

like governor that you couldn't win that because you'd stir up too much opposition from

the Democrats. And I thought if I ran for lieutenant governor that I might could pull that

off as a secondary office, but I couldn't even though--I think I showed you a poll earlier in

the campaign on a non-partisan basis. I was leading in several of the metropolitan areas

just where voters voted for a person on the basis of their ability without showing party

preference. But once Nixon got into all the Watergate problems in 1974, and then once I

got on the ballot as a Republican as the results of all of that, I was slaughtered. I think I

got about thirty-four or thirty-five per cent of the vote.

FLOCKS: That's pretty good for a Republican.

SAVAGE: In that year that was outstanding state-wide. In fact, I think Ronnie

Thompson, who was our candidate for governor, got about thirty per cent of the vote.

FLOCKS: Mack Mattingly has done better, but that was just because he was running

against Talmadge.

SAVAGE: Oh, yes. And then in a far better year where he had Reagan as the

presidential nominee and had all kinds of good things going for him.

FLOCKS: Your percentage is very good.

SAVAGE: And the other interesting thing is it was unfortunate for the Republican

Party that when they first won a state-wide race, it was won by an individual who had

never held political office. Mack Mattingly ran for the United State Congress in his Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library home district down there and got twenty-six per cent of the vote that year. Now, the

fascinating thing: he ran and was elected in Georgia in 1980 to the only public office he

could have been elected in the state of Georgia, and that was the Senate. And literally

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

four or five hundred other Republicans could have ben elected in that same election.

Had a Republican been elected in that election who had had some real experience and

expertise in how to campaign, how to be accountable to do the type of things. For

example, Wyche Fowler was elected in November and Wyche Fowler has already been

back to Georgia having town hall meetings going around this state in January of this year.

To my knowledge Mack Mattingly never did any of that. I'm simply saying that when

the Republican get a chance and elect somebody. If you elect a politician on a fluke, that

person may not have the political talents to exercise and develop the potential of that

office, and that's exactly what happened to Mack Mattingly. I also can tell you that it

would have been four or five hundred other people in the state had they won that office.

We would have never loss it six years later.

FLOCKS: Why didn't you run?

SAVAGE: I wasn't a Republican at that time.

FLOCKS: (laughs)

SAVAGE: But, had there been a Republican in that office and even such as Newt

Gingrich, you would have never beaten him six years later, never beaten him. Or if you

had a Republican in such as Bob Bell, or Mike Egan who represented this district at one

time. If Mike had been elected to the United State Senate, you'd have never beaten him.

You'd have never beaten Paul Coverdell had he been in there for six years, but what

happened is by a fluke. . . . The other fact, you why Mack Mattingly won the Republican Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library primary in that year? No other well-qualified holder of public office in the state of

Georgia as a Republican ran in the Republican primary because nobody thought that

Talmadge could be defeated. And then he got into all that trouble. So, Mack Mattingly

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

didn't win his position to the Senate; he simply was at the right place at the right time and

was re-elected irregardless of his ability or talent or campaign ability or anything else.

FLOCKS: Or lack thereof.

SAVAGE: Or lack thereof. And then had not that experience and expertise and so

forth, six years later, then, he was defeated by a hard working, very people oriented

person to person type of campaign. Well, Sally, I've enjoyed it.

FLOCKS: I've enjoyed this very much. John, this is (crashing sound).

SAVAGE: to show him he was in the state archives.

FLOCKS: Okay.

SAVAGE: It's been a very interesting political observation of mine that the people in

Georgia have been unwilling to consider as their governor at any time since I came to

Georgia in 1952, really a very bright, progressive individual such as Ellis Arnall was. I

think Carl Sanders wanted to move the state of Georgia in that direction. It's interesting

as I make this statement, as I look back and think that I was elected at the same time that

Jimmy Carter was elected governor I was elected to the state legislature. And he was a

very bright and progressive and innovative person, but was very ineffective as our

governor during the four years that he was governor. Since Carter we elected Busbee

who was very bland and just kind of ran a no creative type of government and even went

more in that direction towards your bland and non-creative type of government in the

election of Joe Frank Harris. You get a kind of creative aggressive individual such as Bo Copyright Special Collections and Archives, Georgia State University Library Ginn was and the Georgia electorate has almost said that we don't want to rock the boat

and we don't want anybody that's too bright or too creative as our governor. And that's

certainly been the case in the last twelve years, the last sixteen years. And that's been a

GGDP, John Savage, Date: 5/1/1987

very interesting philosophical pondering that I've done as to why this state doesn't want to

challenge itself with a very bright and dynamic and provocative, intelligent governor.

FLOCKS: Maybe you need to run.

SAVAGE: I don't need to run.

FLOCKS: (laughs)

SAVAGE: I think I've told you that on religion, on abortion, and on gambling, I'm

incapable with the majority of the people. And, you know, Sally, I thought about that. I

thought about a lot of things, but I've decided not to run again. And I thought I really

honestly couldn't be elected state-wide. And that's about the only way I want to go

through life anyway. (tape off)

FLOCKS: . . . end of the interview with John Savage on May 1, 1987. John Savage

has asked me, Sally Flocks, to be sure in editing the transcript that I make it clear that he's

not making a personal attack on Tom Murphy, but it's the system itself that gives so much

power to an individual, that he considers Tom Murphy a very nice person and it's not

considered a vendetta against him nor is it a personal attack on Joe Frank Harris. So, I

am to make that clear in editing the document.