; STATE Government .1—.1 LIBRARY of South Australia

STATE LIBRARY OF SOUTH AUSTRALIA J. D. SOMERVILLE ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

OH 1/14

Full transcript of an interview with

NEIL SEAFORTH MACKENZIE

on 20 SEPTEMBER 1985

by Beth Robertson for 'SA SPEAKS: AN ORAL HISTORY OF LIFE IN SOUTH AUSTRALIA BEFORE 1930'

Recording available on cassette

Access for research: Unrestricted

Right to photocopy: Copies may be made for research and study

Right to quote or publish: Publication only with written permission from the State Library ATB/11/129-14i Mr Neil Seaforth MACKENZIE ii 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Page

Preface iii

Notes to the Transcript iv

Family and Schooling 1

Work 6 Assistant in Adelaide warehouse

Military Service 9 Compulsory Military Training Service with the 10th Battalion in France

Work (continued) 22 Unsettled return to civilian life Survey team at Overland Corner

Soldiers' Settlement, Bar mera 27 Accommodation Irrigation farming - grape growing

Courtship and Marriage 33 Later work experiences

Index (Interim Subject Heading List) 39

Collateral Material in File 8514 includes: Photographs P85I4A-H and a photocopy of a letter that Mr MacKenzie's father gave him on his departure for the war (L8514).

Cover Illustration Neil MacKenzie (front row, third from right), aged nineteen, on the day he enlisted in 1916. ATB/11/129-14i Mr Neil Seaforth MACKENZIE iii 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

PREFACE

Neil Seaforth MacKenzie was born in 1897 at Petersburg (Peterborough). That year the family moved to Adelaide when Neil's father, a shorthand writer with the railways, was transferred to Islington. Neil left Adelaide High School in about 1913 and worked as the assistant to the Manager of a British manufacturer's warehouse in the City. He enlisted in September 1916 and spent almost three years in France - mainly keeping his head down to avoid Fritz and Australian officers! On his return Neil found it hard to settle and went bush, working for twelve months with a surveying team around Overland Corner preparatory to taking up a Soldier Settlement block growing grapes at Barmera in April 1922. Mr MacKenzie married in 1926, had three children and worked the block until 1955.

Mr MacKenzie was 88 years of age at the time of the interview.

When speaking of his wartime experiences, Mr MacKenzie is most animated (this includes giving a rapid salute whenever he mentions an officer) and hardly requires prompting. Otherwise he is not always expansive but has a sound memory and an engaging dry wit. Mr MacKenzie tired a little towards the end of the inter- view. The quality of the tape recording is good although a squeaky chair is evident and Mr MacKenzie does not always enunciate clearly and tends to lose the ends of sentences.

The interview was recorded in one session resulting in two hours and twenty five minutes of tape recorded information.

'S.A. Speaks: An Oral History of Life in South Australia before 1930' was a Jubilee 150 project conducted under the auspices of the History Trust of South Australia for two years and two months ending December 1986. The Interviewees are broadly representative of the population of South Australia as it was in the first three decades of the twentieth century. Selection of Interviewees was guided by a Sex and Occupation Sample calculated from the 1921 Census and Inter- viewees were suggested, in the main, by people who responded to 'S.A. Speaks' publicity. Each interview was preceded by an unrecorded preliminary interview during which details about the Interviewee's family history and life story were sought to help develop a framework for the interview.

As stated in the Conditions of Use for Tape Recordings and Transcripts adopted for the 'S.A. Speaks' project: 'The copyright in the item(s) [viz, the tapes and transcripts of Interview 8514] and all the rights which normally accompany copyright including the right to grant or withhold access to them, conditionally or unconditionally, to publish, reproduce or broadcast them, belongs in the first instance to the History Trust of South Australia for the purposes of the 'S.A. Speaks' project and after the cessation of that project to the Libraries Board of South Australia for the purposes of the Mortlock Library of South Australiana.' ATB/11/129-14i Mr Neil Seaforth MACKENZIE iv 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

NOTES TO THE TRANSCRIPT

Readers of this oral history transcript should bear in mind that it is a record of the spoken word. It was the policy of the Transcriptionist, Chris Gradolf, and the Interviewer, as editor, to produce a transcript that is, so far as possible, a verbatim transcript that preserves the Interviewee's manner of speaking and the informal, conversational style of the interview. Certain conventions of trans- cription have been applied (i.e. the omission of meaningless noises, redundant false starts and a percentage of the Interviewee's crutch words). Also, each Interviewee was given the opportunity to read the transcript of their interview after it had been proofread by the Interviewer. The Interviewee's suggested alterations have been incorporated in the text (see below). On the whole, however, the document can be regarded as a raw transcript.

Researchers using the original tape recording of this interview are cautioned to check this transcript for corrections, additions or deletions which have been made by the Interviewer or the Interviewee but which will not occur on the tapes. Minor discrepancies of gram mar and sentence structure made in the interest of readability can be ignored but significant changes such as deletions of information or correction of fact should be, respectively, duplicated or acknowledged when the tape recorded version of this interview is used for broadcast or publication on cassettes.

Abbreviations

The Interviewee, Mr Neil MacKenzie, is referred to by the initials NM in all editorial insertions in the transcript.

Punctuation

Square brackets [1 indicate material in the transcript that does not occur on the original tape recording.

The Interviewee's initials after a word, phrase or sentence in square brackets, i.e. [word or phrase NM] indicates that the Interviewee made this par- ticular insertion or correction. All uninitialled parentheses were made by the Interviewer.

An series of dots, indicates an untranscribable word or phrase.

Sentences that were left unfinished in the normal manner of conversation are shown ending in three dashes, - -

Spelling

Wherever possible the spelling of proper names and unusual terms has been verified. Where uncertainty remains the word has been marked with a cross in the right hand margin of the Interview Log and Data Sheet which can be consulted in the Interview File.

Typeface

The Interviewer's questions are shown in bold print. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 1. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

'S.A. Speaks: An Oral History of Life in South Australia Before 1930' Beth Robertson interviewing Mr Neil Seaforth MacKenzie ansiiiminini on 20 September 1985

TAPE 1 SIDE A

Could you start by telling me your full name?

Neil Seaforth MacKenzie.

Where did the Seaforth come from?

The Seaforth was one of the Dad's being of Scottish descendent, I was named after Seaforth Highlanders. That's where the Seaforth came in.

Have you always been known as Neil?

Yes.

Have you ever had any nicknames?

Only during the war and they used to call me Burgoo then. Because I used to go for the porridge - burgoo. (laughs)

What date were you born?

The eleventh of May 1897 at Peterborough. Oh, it was Petersburg then.

Why were your family there?

Well my dad, he came out from the old country, and being connected with the railways in Scotland, he came out and he applied for a job in Victoria. He worked there for some years and then he decided he'd go down to Tasmania. It was a bit too cold there, so then he went to Queensland. And from Queens- land he came back and was given the job at Peterborough as a shorthand writer to the South Australian Railways up there, which was the big locomo- tive department.

It was from there that he came down to Islington and was in the Chief Mechanical Engineer's Office and he spent some time there until he was asked to go to Newcastle to view all the coal for the South Australian Railways at Broken Hill Proprietary and the Western Australian Railways, and that's where he spent, well, the last - biggest portion of his life - over there. And he was well respected. Because I know when I was a lad and a brother, we went over to see him, and he was great friends of John Brown, the big coal magnate, and when we went over there he said that the boys could have the mine for the day, which was very good of him. And he sent a special engine ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 2. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

down and a tender, and we went up to a mine - I can't think of the name of the mine at the present - but we went up there and, oh, had a super lunch, had a look all round the place, and then we came back again. Oh no, it was an experience.

And then also the Manager of one of the mines there, he had a collier coming from Newcastle to Sydney, so he asked if we'd like to go down on the collier, which we did, and we landed in Sydney on a Sunday morning. And Sunday morning in Sydney's like all the rest of them - dead. (laughter) But we found the hotel and got on all right. My brother, he was keen on horses, but not me. And we went to the races, and he backed number 9. Number 9 won two or three races, but I wasn't interested.

How old were you then?

Oh, I'd be about - - -. Barb [N M's daughter] would be about - - Oh, she was only about - 1920 - - I'd be about twenty eight I suppose.

Tell me, how old were you when the family moved down to Adelaide?

Well they brought me down on a pillow. And they said, 'No, he won't live.' (laughs) But there you are, I'm still going. But an aunt of my mother, she brought me up, and they brought me up on condensed milk. And I like condensed milk.

Still. Had you been a sickly child?

[queries question]

Were you sickly as a baby?

Well, I don't suppose I was sickly. I just wanted, you know, wanted building

Up.

Tell me, what was your mother's background?

Well, my mother, I don't know much about her background at all. All I know that she must've been left young and she was brought up by Mr and Mrs Barrett who had the Terminus Hotel in Peterborough, and that's where my dad met my mother and they were married up there. She had one brother and he was - he worked for Howard Smith's - and going out to the mail boats that used to anchor off of Largs Bay, he fell and was drowned out at the anchorage. So that's about as far as I know about on my mother's side.

Were any of your father's relatives in Australia? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 3. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

No. No, none of them came here. They went all over the place. One went to India, one went to Canada, and then some are settled in New Zealand.

Did you ever meet any of his people?

A bit. Quite a few. Two or three of his sisters when I was over during the war. I stopped with one in Glasgow and then I met another one only in recent years over in New Zealand. I went to New Zealand and saw them. Apart from that there were, you know, relations, but we never got in touch with them. Too far away.

What about his parents?

Who?

You father's parents?

Well, all I know, his father was a Captain in the Highland Light Infantry and he was connected with a printers. They brought a store in - 'MacKenzie', I think it went under - the name. They were down at - just out of Edinburgh. I did see the place. It was my great - it'd be my father's father - who was one of the witnesses in the trial at the City of Glasgow Bank and as a matter of fact I'll show you the book. And of course then there was my grandmother. Well, she was right up on the Highlands and she spoke nothing but Gaelic. It was over my head like a bell tent. (laughs)

Where did the family come when you came to Adelaide?

When we came from Petersburg we went down to the Semaphore and that's where I started school at Le Fevre's school at the Semaphore. I can't think - there was Eddie Farrow, I know he was there, and Pavia. It was the Head- master I think. And we stopped at there at the Semaphore until we went up to North Adelaide and stopped with Mrs Burr who lived in Melbourne Street and I think we stopped there - - -. That's when I went to North Adelaide school.

How long were you at Le Fevre school?

Well, must've only been there the first two or three years. Like the - not kindergarten.

Did they call them the infants?

[queries question]

Was it the infant - - -? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 4. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Yes, I think it was. And then we went up to North Adelaide. Well it was in North Adelaide - I stopped there until I went to the Adelaide High School. That was nineteen hundred and twelve.

What do you remember of the primary school days?

In those days they had the girls and boys together. We had a chap there named Oborne, I think his name. He used to come down - ride a horse to school. Then another woman I met there - Miss Rosman, Alice Rosman. I don't know whether she was a - I don't know what she did. But I met her again up in Renmark, oh, I suppose it'd be about thirty years after. She was stopping at the Renmark Hotel and we went up there and she was there, and she remembered me. I was a good writer - good writer. Alice Rosman.

What subjects did you enjoy at school?

Well, I wasn't very brilliant at subjects. Geography and things like that I was more conversant than with the figures - you know, arithmetic and that sort of thing. The other part was all right. Although once I got the grip of the thing - it used to take me a long time to assimilate the things - but once I got it I could retain it. The same as now. I can remember things there years and years ago that happened. It was a matter of - just the opposite to my brother. He could sit down, look at a book and read it, and tell you all about it, whereas it might take me six months.

Was your brother younger than you?

Yes, not much younger. I was born in 1897, he was born 1898, so there wasn't much difference.

Were you close to one another?

Oh yes, we - - -. He used to fight my battles. (laughs)

When we were talking the other day, you mentioned that you had been given a scholarship to the School of Arts.

Yes, that was at North Adelaide. It was a - - -. There were two of us, a chap named Terrell, and his people had the - they had a grocer's shop in Melbourne Street, down nearly opposite that - what's the name of that hotel? On the corner. It used to be a big - it used to be a brewery. Terrell, he was the other one - Terrell - and we were given these scholarships. I went to the School of Arts I think for about three weeks. That was down in the Exhibition Building and that's when they decided I should continue with my education. And Mr Williams who was the Director of Education said that at any future time he would look into it if I wanted to take it on again. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 5. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Had you applied for the scholarship?

No. No, I don't know how I - - -. There were just the two of us were - that's as far as I know.

What would you have been studying at the School of Arts?

Well, be drawing and what goes with art. I'm not much of an artist although the wife, she was an artist, and I think I showed you some of my work that I did, which I still do and I potter around.

Did you want to go to the School of Arts?

At the time I thought it was all right, but then again it was a bit - - Well, I don't know, it wasn't like going to school. See, it was a break away, and you were not at school and you were doing all this drawings and, you know, what they do - all kinds of things - at art school.

Didn't it feel like school?

No, it didn't seem like school to me. I think that was the Exhibition. They used to run the Exhibition down there in those days, and I think I spent most of my time looking at the Exhibition.

Had you completed your qualifying certificate at North Adelaide School?

No, that - - I showed you. That was nineteen hundred and eleven and that's when I went from there to the Adelaide High School. I was up there when Bill Adey - 'Plugger Bill' Adey - he was the Headmaster at the Adelaide High School then. It was then that we were living down at Black Forest. Used to come up on the train and go to school there, and that's where I finished - left there and started work with this English firm, a warehouse it was. I stopped with them until I went to the war.

So had you started at the School of Arts before finishing at North Adelaide?

Yes.

Whose decision was it that you shouldn't go on with the scholarship?

Well, it was my father. He thought that I should continue with my education and he wrote to the Minister - the Director of Education - and he thought the same, and I've got a letter to say that at any future period I, he would look into it and consider whether I wanted to take it on. But of course lots happened after that.

Yes.

See, the war came on and I went to that. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 6. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Why did you go on to high school?

I wanted to - - -. You see, you only got up to what it says on that certificate [Fifth Class Examination]. Then at the high school you came into, oh, short- hand and typing and Latin, all that kind of stuff. (laughs)

What subjects were you doing?

I couldn't tell you off hand. But I wasn't too brilliant. No.

Did you want to go on yourself?

Yes and no. I mean, I got to that stage, you know, getting on. I thought, oh well, look for a job. And I took this job and I stopped with them, oh, for fourteen - - I must have had four or five years with this crowd, and there was only the Manager and another traveller. But I was with the Manager most of the time and, as I say, in those days it was all indenting. All the big firms used to come and they'd spend a week there buying all the different stuff. Like John Martin's and F.C. Catts and all those big stores. And all the big places from the country. I know, I think it was Prest Brothers in Port Pine, they used to get most of their stuff out in four hundred gallon gal- vanised iron tanks. Oh yes.

How did you get the job?

I don't know. I couldn't tell you. Although I've got an idea the traveller who was a friend of the Dad's and he said they wanted a boy there. And I said, 'Oh well, I'll go there.' And I used to do it in evens, from John Martin's to Victoria Square - catch the train. Up all those side lanes and - -

Did you father approve of you leaving school and beginning work?

Oh yes. Yes, he said it was all right. Of course then, with my brother and sister, they - - -. My mother was dead against them having anything to do with money or anything like that. And what happens? He got tangled up with money - go out paying all these people down at Government House, and then he finished up, as I say, in the Police Court.

Why was your mother against money?

Oh, I don't know. I don't know. Same as when Mr Barrett died. The Dad was - could have taken over the Terminus Hotel then - of course we were all young then - and she wouldn't have that on, so there you are.

What was the name of the place where you went to work? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 7. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

What the first - - Rylands and Sons. It was a big English firm. Oh, well they used to manufacture everything - sheetings, linos - you mention and they had it. Oh, a huge place it was, and during the war I called'in and met some of the Directors.

In England?

Yes in England. The only chap I could remember was a chap named Todd, and I thought, 'Well, I'll go in,' and I found the place and I went and asked for him. Oh, he gave me a good time and, as I say, showed me all round, and I could've been - could've gone back to Africa. They used to have a lot going to Africa and they used to go all over Africa with their samples and stuff. But I didn't go to Africa, no.

Did it appeal to you?

Oh, I thought of it at the time and then I thought, no, I'll come back home. And I came back and they had a big place in Sydney, and they closed this place in Adelaide down. So I was out on the loose, and I worked for another crowd. And then, I don't know how it was, but Price Weir, who was the original Commander of the 10th Battalion, he was a Commissioner of, you know, Work here. I forget - what do they call them? Anyway he said - I don't know how I got in touch with him, but if you were in the 10th Battalion, he'd get you a job. And he got me a job in the Taxation Department.

We'll go on to that a little later on. We've covered a lot of ground in a short amount of time. Was Rylands and Sons in Adelaide just a warehouse?

Yes.

No manufacturing here?

No, it was all - - -. They used to send the stuff out. Like the summer time, you'd have all the winter materials - everything for the winter - and then the summer time you had the - - Or in the winter time you had the summer stuff. And they had everything. Oh gee, miles and miles. I know, they had a box there that opened up four - four ways - and all it contained was brooches and in those days men used to wear tie pins to keep their shirt up, you know. All those. And I said to the boss one day, I said, 'How much is that?' And I counted. There was a hundred and forty four articles in that box. He says, 'You can have it for half a crown'. So I said, 'Good oh,' and I used to get it. Then they used to have all the samples - flannelette and stuff - used to come out in yards, squares, you see. And shops, they used to come round and buy them. I nearly took a draper's shop. I thought, 'God, money.' Yes, I tell you. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 8. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

You said there weren't a lot of people on the staff there.

No, there was only the Manager and myself and the traveller.

Were there men moving the goods around in the warehouse?

No. No, the boss would have all the big baskets and you'd just push them around. Well, they had the - - -. It was a fair size. You had shelves and your stuff there, but, like you'd come in and, say this morning at nine o'clock and you'd go there till five o'clock, and you'd come back the next day. Go through everything. Doesn't matter - - Oh yes, you've got no idea. I mean, I think I knew more napery and stuff like that. You ask some of these people names and they don't know what you're talking about. Oh no.

What did your work involve?

I used to be - - -. The Manager, he'd be - - -. You'd be telling him what you want. You want twenty dozen of this and something that, and have a look all through and then whatever you were looking at, I'd fold them up, put them away till the next lot. So that's how you came to know everything that they sold.

So the Manager and the buyer would be looking through samples?

Oh yes, it was all samples. They did - after a while - they did go in for a little stuff - - -. Got stuff out and sold it around to the different firms there. They used to get flannelette and all that - sheeting. I know they used to get a lot of sheeting and stuff and that used to go to John Martin's and all the big places, until such time as they went all around.

Would the orders then be sent to England?

Yes they were all sent over there and then they all came out. Well it was all shipping then. Crates, tanks, whatever they wanted. But the people in the back country, like up round Eudunda and Pine and Port Augusta - Young and Gordon's - they used to get all their stuff in four hundred or eight hundred gallon tanks. Well they get stuff and then the tanks are good for the water.

Would they deal directly with the shipping line or did the goods come through you?

No, the Manager would send the orders over and they would get them altogether and send them out. And then they would advise, you know - got two or three crates or cases or tanks or - -

END OF TAPE 1 SIDE A: TAPE 1 SIDE B ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 9. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

I'd like to just go back a little bit now. One area that I'd like to talk about with you is the Compulsory Military Training. That would've come in when you were about fourteen years old.

Yes, it came in while I was at the Adelaide High School and we used to have training there. And when I left the High School we were living at Black Forest and we used to have to go to Goodwood to do the training there. And it was after I left the High School that the powers to be sum monsed me for not attending the parade. See you had a belt and you were supposed to transfer that belt from the High School down to Goodwood, which was done, but they said they'd never got it. They nearly had me up in court. I had to go to court. When I got there, I know the Dad, he went up with me and he said - 'All right,' he said, 'We'll adjourn it till next week'. And when I went back next week he said, 'No, the case is dismissed', and I can see it as plain today, and the Dad said to him, 'What about costs?' (laughs)

And old Charlie Minigill, he was the one in charge of the - at Goodwood - and I did that. I went down, and I went down - - I used to go up to the parade ground and, you know, study them, and go up the parade ground and you'd get one side of the parade ground and you'd bawl out orders right across the parade ground. Anyhow I finished up, I got made a Sergeant.

And it wasn't till after that, when we kept going, and I joined up with the AIF in '16 or whatever it was, and it was then that I went to France. Well, I went over on the old Africa. She was an old tub. She had about five masts - oh, great big - I might find that. Anyhow, we went over on the Africa. We went to Cape Town, we went to Durban, we went to Sierra Leone, and we went to Dakar and it was Christmas Day when we were in Dakar and they gave us the privilege of putting the boats in the water and let us row around the harbour. That was at Dakar.

But after we left there, well then, it was from there straight to the old country. And I know - oh, it got, in the Bay of Biscay - oh, it got rough. Oh, you've got not idea, I mean, what she was like. Anyway we got there. We got landed and the outfit was going from Way mouth, I think it - round to Liver- pool. And she was torpedoed on the way around. So we were lucky to get out of it.

We went up to a place called Amesbury I think it was, and we camped there and after you'd been, oh, a week, fortnight, they gave you four days leave in London. And me - I must've got a wog or something - but all the others went on leave and I'm left there. But I did eventually get up there and when I came back there were others that got to England before I did and they ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 10. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8.514

were still there, and one day they came round and said, 'Right, you're going to France.' I don't know what influence I had, but - - (laughs) There was a chap named Captain Whitburn, and he says, 'Keep your head down boy, keep your head down.' Oh, I keep me head down.

And I went over and I joined up with the battalion and they were down around Albert where the big statue was. They reckon when that fell down the war's finished. I joined them like, about - oh, it was May - like today. I got up there and there's a chap named Hamilton. He came from Broken Hill. And instead of calling into Brigade Headquarters he took us straight to the Battalion and we had to go back to Brigade Headquarters to see the Brigadier who was Bennett. He was the man that escaped from - in the last war. He was the Brigadier in charge of the 3rd Brigade.

So, all right, we got there and then we came back and I joined this 6th Platoon in B Company. And the Sergeant come round. 'Oh, well,' he said, 'a bit of luck,' he says, ' we're going out'. Oh, this is good. And about an hour later he says, 'No, you're not going out, you're going up the Front Line'. And we had to go up the Front Line, which in those days, as far as I was concerned, once you got into the Front Line you were pretty right. Because the shells, they used to go over the top of you and all you had to contend was the chap opposite you. So - - Of course, all trenches, mud, all that. That was all right.

And they come around and, oh, I dug a bit of a - - - in the side of a trench so you could get in, dropped the sheet and thought, 'Oh, they can't see me'. (laughs) And I'm near there and they come around and they say, 'Right, you. You go out there in the front there.' I said, 'What for?"0h, screen for a wiring party. They're putting wire netting up.' Yes, wire netting's right. (laughs) Oh, gee. So I got out there and you come back and the next thing this Hamilton comes round and he says, 'We're going to be relieved,' he says, and he says, 'I'm going over the top,' and said, 'I'll see you back in the sunken road.' He says, 'I'll be there before you.' Be there before us is right. Oh, this is good, so I got back and then they decided they have to take rations up. So rations - -

In those days I got a couple of - two gallon tins of water - to take them. And there's another chap, chap named Stopp. I think he came from Mount Gambier. Anyway I don't know whether he's - - -. He might have passed on. Anyway, he and I, we're coming back and old Fritzy decided to shell and he shelled. Well in those days they had great big dugouts. Anyhow we dived into ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 11. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

one of these and, oh, there were dozens and dozens all there, you know, waiting to get out. Anyhow when they stopped the barrage a bit we decided we'd go back. Well we came up and of course they're going crook - 'Where's the rations?' I had one tin of water I know that. And they said, 'Well you go back and find them.' We had to go back and we found two sugar bags - brought them up. They had the sardines and bread and stuff, and that was all right - that's all right, away we go.

Then when we came out, we went back a little bit further - oh, say we went back from here to Glynburn Road. The next night we went back a little bit further - well, probably down to the next road. We was sitting there and that's when they came around and they said, 'Right.' There were thirty two in our Platoon when we went in and by the time we got back there was only nine of us.

And that's where I met this Major Minigill who was the Quartermaster General for the Battalion. Looked after all the goods and everything else. I saw him the next morning I was there. 'Oh,' he said, 'now where did we meet last?' I said, 'Up in the Police Court.' (laughs) Up in the Police Court - old Charlie. So that was all right. We were there for a couple of days and they come around and they say, 'Hey, you, they want you over in Battalion Head- quarters.' I said, 'Me?"Yes, you.' All right,' said the Sergeant Major, 'go up and see the Captain.'

So I go up and see the Captain and that was Hamilton, he's in his shirt sleeves and, 'What've you been doing?' I said, 'Nothing."Well, go on, get over the Battalion Headquarters,' he said, 'They want you over there.' All right, I go over, and I can see it now. There were about six of them in a line. The old Colonel and the Adjutant, and - - -. 'Commission. You,' yes right. 'You Sergeant.' And I come back. I'm the last of the Mohicans. And he said, 'You're a Sergeant back home was you?', he said. I says, 'Yes Sir'. 'Oh,' he said, 'No, I can't really. I'm going to recom mend you for an officers' school.' I said, 'No thank you.' (laughs) 'No thank you'. And he says to the Adjutant, he says, 'Put his name down.' And that was all right. I come back and the mob said, 'What do they want?' 0h,' I said, 'they want to send me to officers' school.' And I said, 'No,' and then the next day we got out on parade and it was a warm day like this, and I could - - -. Must have had a cold coming on. And I dropped me rifle. The bloke next door caught hold of me, and old Jock, 'What's the matter - - -?' Anyhow, I go and I saw - - -. Harry Knott was our doctor. He's dead now. 'Oh,' he said, 'boy,' he said, 'You go down the Casualty Clearance Stations.' So I went down there and, oh, I was only there ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 12. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

for about four days, and when I came back they'd been looking for me, to send me to officers' school. If I'd gone to officers' school I probably wouldn't be here now. Oh, I was wild and wooly - no idea. Any jobs they wanted doing, 'Oh, he'll do.' So that was that.

Looking back on your military training back here, what did you think of it once you were in the Army? Was it worthwhile?

What, you mean the real Army?

Yes, compared to the military training you'd done in Adelaide.

Oh no. You couldn't compare it. I mean to say - - -. See, this last war was different to the first. I mean, I've got pictures. I haven't got pictures now, but it was all mud and slush. Didn't expect anything like that. Oh no, you weren't in the race. The worst part, as I say, was not so much - - -. Where they used to catch them it was the artillery. Used to go right over them. You're up in the front line. You're over there and I'm here. Now and again we used to get pretty close, from here to the end of the street here, but, oh no. They wouldn't be coming after you - you were after them. And the biggest chaps I ever saw were the Prussian Guards. I've never seen chaps - oh, never seen chaps like it. Prussian Guards. We were only little skinny blokes. That was at Bullecourt. Oh, no. Oh boy, the Prussian Guards. Yes, no doubt about them.

Of course I stopped with them there. I got knocked - - -. After Bulle- court we didn't go until we went to - up north - and that's where I got knocked there. They had two raiding companies and I was in one and there was a chap named Leaver and he was a relation of Leavers the hatters. He was one of them, and I'm with him. We're going in - - -. Left him in the shell hole and a big pill box there, and he got one clean through - right through here [fore- head], and he fell back on top of me. I went to grab his revolver. Somebody beat me to it. And the next minute, old Fritzy'd thrown a bomb in. If it'd been one of our bombs, well I wouldn't have been here. It was only a stick bomb and it went 'bang', and I thought 'Oh'. I got a bit there [thigh] and I went down the track.

And I got down to this - where they were evacuating them - and I sat down for a while and wanted to get up, I couldn't get up. Got a bit in my leg. Anyhow I managed to get up and they say, 'Well you'd better hurry up because this train is the last one. This one's going down to Rouen and they'll go over to Blighty.' And if I hadn't have caught that train, I would've still been in France. But I got over there and I got - - Oh, I had three months over there. And by the time I came back to them they'd moved somewhere else. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 13. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Anyhow I thought, 'Oh, this is all right.' Anyhow I went back the same crowd, joined the same Company and the same -. And of course thing, 'Where you been? Where you been?' So that was all right, I got back, and I stopped with them then, oh, right up until - oh, till after the Armistice. Although I'd hardly got back to them and I had a tooth in the back there that had a cavity in it. Anyhow the thing wasn't put on properly. So they sent me down to the doctor. Doctor said, 'You go and see the dentist,' and the dentist said (laughs), 'You go down there.' So I went down and I got into this second casualty clearance station, and they kept me there. And I was due to come out.

They were all going down to Merris, the Battalion and the Sergeant Major came round and he said, 'Is there anybody here knows anything about primus stoves?' And I said, 'Yes.' I said, 'Good,' so I got a job in the operating theatre looking after these primus stoves. Well I stopped with them there, oh, for a long time and then the crowd, they were going up to Ypres and old Birdwood was going to hand it over to the French, and there was another Sergeant about the Battalion and he said, 'We'll go up and have a look too.' And we went up. Oh, it was a fair way up - through Armenteires. And we got to this place and we saw old Bird. He handed it over. Then we had to walk back. So we were walking back and I said, 'God, twenty two kilos.' So I said - oh, and the motorcars come whizzing by, whizzing by, and no, nobody'd give us a ride. So I said, 'Oh,' I said to this Johanson, I say, 'Hey, tell you what. I get up there further,' and I says, 'you stop here and wave your arms.' And I said, 'They'll stop.' And one screeches. It was an ambulance going back to - straight back home where we were, with some of the nurses. So that was good and we got a ride right back.

While I was there. That's the first time. I never touched alcohol or any- thing like that. And we were in our bell tents and the bugle went and I go, and 'What's going on?' They want you to come and get the rums.' And I was the only Aussie in the tent so I went with a pint pannikin and I got this pint pannikin of rum. Brought it back and they said, 'No, don't want any. You have it.' I said, 'Well, you'd better have it, because you're going to get moved. You're going to move at ten o'clock tonight."No, you have it.' And there was an old boy there. I reckon he had - - -. He might've been in the Crimea War, and he said, 'eat it boy, eat it up, eat it.' I said, 'All right, here you have a go.' So he had a go and - down the hatch. Splitter and splutter and then we had to get out and we had to move all these big tents. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 14. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

And I remember I got one of these tents and I just [fell down] like a stunned mullett. (laughs) And the Sergeant Major comes around and he shines the torch on me and he said, 'Come on,' he said, 'get up, get out, get moving.' And if it wasn't for the Sergeant out of the Battalion - he got me and he threw me on the train. They were loading the train. He threw me up on the train. And I woke up - oh, not the next day, the day after - and the train's pulled up and I think, 'Where are we? Where are we Peter?' Ah,' he said, 'they're going to sign the Armistice today."What, sign the Armistice.' So, oh yes, I said, 'Oh,' I said, 'I can't spit - I'm dry.' Oh,' he said, 'a little boozer over there,' so I go over and have a look at this little boozer. And I get in there and I look and 'What can I have to drink?' And all I can see are these green bottles and I said, 'I'll have some of that green stuff - creme de menthe.' I tasted and, oh dear. Oh, beautiful. Creme de menthe. That's where they signed the Armistice.

Then after that we went up to Tournai and we're in the big - oh big - - Anyhow, it was a huge place. And I was still up there with the operating crowd and of course the Armistice had been signed. There were one or two getting blown up and I'm sitting in the operating place there waiting, and the Captain came tearing in. 'Hey,' he said, 'We've got to have some blood,' he says 'got to have some blood.' I said, 'What for?' He said 'This chap has got blown up and,' he said, 'we want - - I said, 'My name's down there [to give a blood transfusion]'. He said, 'Is it?' He went away and he came back, 'You'll do,' he said, 'You'll do.' They come in and - - -. Not like they do now. He was there and I was here I suppose. Anyhow just take a bunk - - -. Right, back you go, into bed. And one of the sisters, she came back and she said, 'Don't you do anything silly,' you know. 'Oh,' I said, 'not me.' And her name was Campbell. And she said, 'What are you doing there?' I said 'They couldn't get any Campbells,' I said, 'so they got something better than the Campbells,' I said, 'they got - - - [a Mackenzie].' (laughter)

Well they kept me there for a week - pint of stout every day. Then they sent me down to this place - those pictures I showed you - down there. I'm still in bed. Oh God. I said to the New Zealand doctor, I said, 'It's all right,' I said, 'but they don't give you anything interesting here.' He said, 'What do you mean?' I said, 'Where I came from I used to get a pint of stout a day.' He looked at the sister and he said, 'Oh, he can have it.' And I used to get a pint of stout a day. I was the only Aussie there and they said, 'What're you drinking, Aussie, what're you drinking?' That's where I learnt to drink.

Yes, sounds like it. • ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 15. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Well, I had me drop of stout. Oh yes, I said to the doctor the other day, I said, 'What about a drop of stout? I'm losing my appetite.' Yes,' he said. So I tell you. When I look back I think, I tell you. Yes, wild and wooly. As I say, if I'd have got a commission I don't suppose I may have been here.

Why do you say that?

Oh, you know, I'd have been too wild and wooly. (laughs) Yes, 'Come on you blokes.' So when I look back, I am lucky.

Were you glad to be out of the Front Lines?

Oh, it used to be all right when you got back a bit, but, I don't know, you always had something to do. You had something to do. They'd give you something to do. Or they'd find something to do. No, see, towards the finish, when they got them on the run, it was different altogether. But it was this going from here to here and then out again. Then in and out, in and out. So you never knew when your number was up. Oh no, I knew quite a lot. As I say, like tonight - - -. They'd come out and running short. They'd only got about - - -. See, we were nine out of thirty two. Somebody got to do the job. They'd come around, no I don't want it. No. I saw a chap there. There were three Toms - Tom Larkham, Tom Hill - there was three Toms - all got a commission. Like now, tonight, I'll tell you about it directly. Got a commission - weren't there next day. No way.

Because they'd have to be out in front?

No, oh no. But I don't know how they [old Fritzy] used to pick them. Oh no, you never got out in the front, oh gee. Then another time they'd go - - Where was it? There was a place there and they used to have them. One there, another post there, another one here and another one over there. And they'd go from there - - -. Say I was in this post here, they'd say, 'Right, you go out there.' Out for screening - in case anybody comes running around. And they sent me up there one night - Corporal and myself and another chap - and we got behind a log - great big log - and then there was all water. And old Fritz, he came from over that way and he come round and he was coming straight round, straight for us. And all we got is a rifle and a Mill's bomb. And they're coming straight for us. I thought, 'Gee this is going to be good.' And they came up, came up, and I got the old bomb and I thought, 'Well, pin out - I'll throw it and then I'm off.' And they came up and instead of coming towards us, they kind of made another turn and then went back that way. As soon as they got, you know, further - not too far away - I think, 'I'm out.' We came back and, oh, gee. We got back to the pill box it was, he shelled all along there. Did the mob go crook. (laughs) Yes, 'Where you been?' ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 16. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

And then we went out the next night. And I said to the doctor the next day when I came in, I said, 'Two nights running. That's no good.' Oh no,' he said, 'No, that's not fair.' So he sent me away for a couple more days. While we were out there, there was another chap like came up tonight, and he's there. Oh yes, he's going to play Old Harry. And he says, 'Right, you just watch.' And it's just breaking day. 'Come on,' I said, 'this is where we go back,' I said to the Corporal. And this bloke said, 'No,' he said, 'Don't go back.' No,' I said, 'this is where we go back.' Oh no, no trouble.

Oh, times there. Oh, and another time, tell you how silly I am. I was looking to come back and they said, 'You.' Yes."You go and see if you can see Mr Hastwell' - that was the officer. And there's grass, all that and I can't find Mr Hastwell. I can't find him. So I get back to Company Headquarters and Hurcombe, he was the Captain, and he said to the Sergeant Major, he said, 'What's he want?"0h, he's been out looking for Mr Hastwell and he can't find him.' Well, just at that minute this [whirring noise]. 'Right, you'll do. Get hold of that am munition there and take it up to that Platoon. They're being raided."Who, me, Sergeant Major?' Come on.' All right,' and I'm going. And there was a sunken road - right, get to there, and they were over there. Get there, right, carry it from there over and the boys, they knew me. They said, 'Come on, he [Fritz] isn't looking. He can't see you.' And I'd get it and I'd throw [ammunition from the sunken road into the Line]. Come back again, and they'd send another chap up and he'd just come out of the Provo Corp, and he does one run and nicks off. And the Sergeant Major says, 'Right, now you've got to take all them out.' Oh,' I said, 'all right.' And they said, 'No, come on, he's not looking.' I said to the Sergeant Major. He said, 'Oh, you can go back to your mob now.' I says, 'No way.' Anyhow, I go back and Hurcombe says, 'What's he want?"0h, he said, he just came back,' he said, 'Taking am munition out and he come back for a drink.'

END OF TAPE 1 SIDE B: TAPE 2 SIDE A

[The fellow from the Provo Corp got a medal for that exercise.] Oh yes. But it wasn't what you knew, it was who you knew - I don't know.

So you reckon you were lucky to get out of it.

Yes, absolutely. Oh, when you look back and you start thinking about it. If you were over there, a lot of them there, they'd tell you - they wouldn't know what went on. You had to be there.

Why did you join up in the first place? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 17. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

[queries question]

Why did you join up?

Oh well, going away and 'Oh gee. I've been in the Army. I might as well go over and have a look.'

You were pretty young.

Yes. I had my twenty-first birthday over there and I can remember that. It was at a place called Strazeele and they had a big brewery there at Strazeele. And I went up and we salvaged a keg. It was a keg of beer, anyway. We had this. We had an observation officer. I said, 'Oh, it's my birthday - twenty-first birthday.' We got stuck into that. Twenty-first birthday. And at the same place, it's raining cats and dogs and there's one Company there, another Company there in billets, and this mob here - number 5. I was in 6. There was an estaminet out there. Some of the boys got bright and rolled back this keg and they were that bright they couldn't do anything with it that night. Anyhow, oh, there was hell to do. The Brigadier fussed around and everybody. Anyhow the old madam. And you know what? Just as well I didn't get stuck into it. It was a big barrel of - what's that stuff - oil, you know, they cooked the stuff with. Oh, they'd been crook. And they had to roll it back the next day. Raining cats and dogs and we were all laughing at them.

Where had it come from?

Came from the estaminet, the little hotel. (laughs) Fun and games. Yes, it's a pity, you know, didn't keep a few of those souvenirs.

Did you get a lot at the time?

No. There was only one thing I missed out on and that was - - -. You know that picture - Grandfather with the sword. I could have had that sword. But, how you going to get it home? I'd liked to have had that. But a cousin, he got it. He went to Canada - he got it. Yes that's the only thing I would have liked to've had.

What did you think of England?

Well, England. It was - - -. Well I saw it in the summer time. I saw it in the winter time too - snow. But of course where we were camped down on the Salisbury Plains, there wasn't much there, but if you got a bit of leave well what you did was to get a pass to Inverness. That meant you could go from there - you could go right up to Inverness and see all the country. So I used to ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKEN ZIE 18. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

always get it up there and go up to - - I used to go to Glasgow, or go to Edinburgh. I'd go to Methven, all out around the countries. The Fair Maid's House. Where was the Fair Maid's House? Oh, Aberdeen. Aberdeen? Yes, that's where the Fair Maid's House was. Then I - - -. See, I used to go around my cousins over there. Go round and - - I had one cousin, he was a Captain in the Artillary. Well he was - - I don't think he was behind us although he gave me some maps there one time. And of course there was - - -. Being a Private - - -. Being an officer, he couldn't walk around with me being a Private. So we used to have to get changed and - so he could take us around.

Into civilian clothes?

Yes. And there was another chap. He was an Engineer on one of the boats. I met him in Glasgow, and he'd been out here to Port Adelaide, and he'd come back again. I met him over there too.

Had you joined up with friends from Adelaide?

When?

In 1916.

No. The only chap I joined up with was the little chap sitting next to me [see photograph], and I don't know what happened to him. Where he'd gone to I wouldn't know. I don't know where any of these chaps went. But we were down, see, at the Exhibition Building. That's where they put us until they sent us down to Mitchem.

What was that like?

All right. Oh yes, it wasn't too bad.

What did your family think of you joining up?

Oh, I don't know.

We were looking at the letter that your father wrote for you. He seemed rather proud of you. [See copy on file]

Yes. I didn't realise when he wrote that letter - or when I came back - - -. It wasn't until after I came back that I kind of - different things that were said. The same as this chap I met in Ryland's - Todd, the silk manager. Of course I didn't know. He said, 'Oh, your father's a Freemason.' And how he knew, that had me tricked. 'How the dickens does he know?' He said, 'Yes.' I said, yes, I knew he was. Of course since then I've realised the different way he wrote the letter. That towards the end I can think he is - what he said anyway - and I thought, 'Oh well, there you are.' Of course when I came back ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKEN ZIE 19. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

I joined the - - I joined the Freemasons. Because Dad, he was up at James- town. Of course being in the Railways he got moved around about. He never got - - -. Never went through any of the Chairs. Oh, he went a couple of the Chairs I think. I've taken an interest in it ever since. My brother, he joined. I was going to join down here in Adelaide and my dad said, 'No, they're starting one up at Bar mera', and I joined there. And there you are. I'll show you a couple of medals I got.

What has the association with the Freemasons meant to you?

Well, there's a lot to be said for them and a lot agin 'em and all that, and they say, 'Oh, the Freemasons,' this and that. It's not a religion. It's not a religion although you believe in God, same as most people. And then they just have their meetings there and there's nothing - - I can't see anything wrong with it. Of course they don't have - - Of course there are women lodges. I forget what they call them - what do they call them? I had a cousin up in Cairns, she was one. They're not Rainbows - I don't know. Anyhow she was in it. She was in it, her daughter was in it. Something the same I suppose. Oh, no, I mean, they do a lot of good. But then it's the same with everything. You get the good and the bad. And I've been in it sixty years.

It started fairly early up at Bar mera did it?

I would've been the first - - -. They started a new Lodge up there and I would've been the first initiate. That was in 1923 I think. And I took an interest in it and I went through. Although one time I was going to give it away and the wife said, 'No you're not.' See, and there's another thing. It all depends on the women folk. She said, 'No you're not, keep going.' I thought 'Oh well.' I kept going and as I say, sixty years in one, fifty five years in another Lodge and in November I got a letter from a chap at Renmark now. In November I get the other Jewel, so that's the three.

The other - - -?

Jewel. Like this. Three different Lodges. But I have enjoyed it myself. Although it's different now to what it was years ago. They don't seem to be - - -. The chaps are not - what's the word? I don't know, there's just some- thing. I know years and years ago they had corker chaps. I mean, and you meet the best of them. As a matter of fact I'm down there in K-Mart yester- day and I'm going with my daughter and a chap came along. I said, 'Yes, I bet he doesn't know me.' And that was Leaver - the Reverend Leaver. Well, he was one of the best. But, oh no. Nowadays they seem to be - want to join and they want to get to the top. No. Oh I still go. I still go to the meetings ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 20. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

once a month. My daughter takes me over to Burnside. I go over there. They made me Chaplain about ten years ago and I'm still Chaplain. I said, 'What do I do this job for?' Oh, 'You can do it.'

Let's talk some more about your time in France. Did you know what to expect?

Well you had an idea. As I say, it wasn't until you got over there, and as I say, when I joined and they said, 'Oh, you're not going to go - go and get relieved,' instead of that the next minute you're up in the Front Line. In those days - Bullecourt - that's when they had these horse-drawn ambulances. Never saw that afterwards. Then they brought in those tanks, all those things. Oh no, you had to keep your head down. But we didn't do too bad I suppose.

I believe that first winter you were there was a bad one.

Oh yes. Well that, you see - - I wasn't there when they came from Egypt. When they came from Egypt and went to France, that's when they got Pozieres and all those places with the snow and all that and, you know, mud up - - See, well I never struck anything like that. I struck bad enough. As I say, these shells that used to come over. Then they brought in this gas. Brought in that mustard gas. That was terrific if you got that. Mustard gas. Never got any of that.

What else did they have? Oh, and then they had these daisy cutters, as they used to call them. It was a shell that when it hit, instead of going - you know, going like that - it spread out like that. Well if you were anywhere within range you see, you'd get it. You'd get it in the legs. Daisy cutters we used to call them. Oh yes, and then another thing, is it all depended how many - - -. As I say, thirty two go in and nine come out. (laughs) Well the rations were for thirty two. Well, when there's only nine you're living on the fat of the land. Used to have these little round cigarette tins - you know, about like that - and you'd put your butter and that, or margarine and your jam, and all that, cheese. Oh yes. Sometimes you'd get - might get three or four to the loaf, another time you'd have as many there as you liked. But towards the end, you see, when they brought in the hot meals, they brought in these big - you know, these four gallon petrol tins - well they would be four gallons of stew. They'd bring it up. You'd bring it up on your back and hand it out and it was hot, even right up in the Front Line. But you only had to fall over and you couldn't get up. (laughs)

What did you think of the different nationalities that you met there? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKEN ZIE 21. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Well, didn't meet that many. Only ones I got tangled up with once, were the Portuguese - our gallant allies. And they was up round Stazeele and they were there and I looked into a little estaminet one night and, 'Oh,' I said, 'only a lot of pork and beans here.' One of them must've understood English you see. Pork and beans. And they were - - -. They weren't so good. I mean, even when they went into Lille they had - some of them went up there - and they had flowers and things sticking out of their rifles and you'd think, 'Have a garden party.' Yes, a garden party. The Portuguese - our gallant allies. Pork and beans. Another thing is they were one part of the Line there. We must've been somewhere up there. And they're going [sniff] - they're sniffing - 'Oh, bon bon,' - pineapple. And it was a pineapple gas they were putting over. Yes, 'Oh, bon' pineapple. No doubt about them. [Break]

When did you know you were going home?

Going home?

From France?

Oh, it wasn't till - - - [break - can't find document] Coming home? I came home on the Or monde. It'd be on my discharge, wouldn't it?

Yes.

On the Or monde, yes that was the boat. [break - discharged September 1919]

Were you looking forward to getting back?

Oh yes. You know, get out of it. The trouble is if we'd known as much as we know now, like the Second World War chaps, they know all the answers. See when we came back we just wanted to get out.

Why do you think they knew better?

Well, I mean to say, they had - what is it? Well they knew all the answers. I mean to say y they didn't rush out like we did. See we came back and we, 'Oh well, let's get out of it'. Instead of that, I mean, as far as the others came back and they say, oh they've had - - -. They could have had trench feet or something like that. In our war, well you never thought of that.

Oh, you mean for claiming for something?

Yes. See nowadays - - -. These chaps from the Second World War, you have a look around and you see how many of them are TPI [Totally and Permanently Disabled]. I go into the 10th fiftieth and it's surprising the number there that TPI. And they're as fit as what I am, I reckon. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 22. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Do you think you suffered any after effects?

It's hard to say. I mean, I don't suppose I have.

Do you think it affected your nerves?

No. No, I don't think. No, you've got to take good medicine. A bottle of beer a day, that's what the doctor said.

What about the wound in your leg?

No, I haven't suffered from that. No, it never worried me.

Did you have any plans when you were coming back to Adelaide?

Any what?

Plans for the future?

No, I just come back and, well, as I say, I went back to the firm and then they closed up.

So you were back with Ryland & Sons for a little while.

Yes. Then I went with another crowd and I can't think of what their name was. Of course in those days you used to lump around a suitcase with all the stuff in. Catch trams and - -

Were you showing samples?

Yes. But I didn't last long in that. I gave that away and that's when I went with the Taxation Department.

What work were you doing with them?

Same as the Taxation Department do nowadays, working on figures.

How did you like it?

Oh, it was all right. It was quite good. It used to be - - -. You know where the big Educational Department is, on the corner of Gawler Place and Flinders Street, well it used to be down underground there. Of course that was all pulled down and a new place was built. Well, that's where it was. That's where I used to go to work.

How long did you work there?

A couple of years. And that's when my friend [James Gow] said, 'Well, what about going bush' and we went bush.

Why? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 23. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Just wanted to go bush. They were talking about bringing out this land and all the rest of it. And it was quite good. I mean, saw the country and all kinds of jobs.

Had you seen much of the country before then?

Not that much. No, not that much. No, when I came back they gave us a pass to go anywhere on the Railways and I think I - that's right, I went up to Wallarroo and Moonta. Old Tom Verran was alive then. Yes, came out for the Moonta mines.

Had you come back to the family home?

Yes, I came back, until I went bush.

Was you father still working in South Australia then?

No, he was in New South Wales. He was still over in Newcastle.

Let's talk about when you went bush. What did you do?

What did I do? Well, we go to Morgan on the train. We go on the old Model T Fords up to Bar mera, and we get a job up there. They had tents around the lake then and got a job there on the - going down to Cobdogla to - - -. When the boats used to come up and bring all the supplies up, chaff and all that stuff, and the big - Hume Brothers, they had the big works at Loveday. And worked on that till such time as I went on the survey.

So what sort of work were you doing first of all?

Well, we were just down to the nurseries, cutting up sticks, you know, making fine cuttings [laughs], planting those and - - -. Planted in the different acres that were allotted. They brought that - first of April 1922 - that's when they gave us our blocks.

When you went up there, was it your intention to settle up there eventually?

Yes, that was the idea - going up and getting a block, when they were allotted. See they allotted out Monash, Winkie and those places, and they brought all around Nookamka, and that's where we got. I forget how many blocks there were but I know I got one. But they weren't big enough. See fifteen and a quarter acres was nothing at all. And then we got the frost. About two - oh, a couple of years after we'd been on them we got the frost. And then you had to get frost relief from the Government and all that. Oh, well, by the time you got that and had to pay it back. And if you didn't pay it was interest - compound interest - and you were up for money and the prices of fruit in those days was nothing to what they are compared now. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 24. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

END OF TAPE 2 SIDE A: TAPE 2 SIDE B

What terms did you take the land on?

Now you've got me tricked now. Oh anyway, you had so many years, I mean, to pay it back. But as I say, when you got that frost and that, of course that knocked it kite high. I mean to say, you never used to get anything. They used to allow you fifteen shillings a week for cubicle rent. I used to pay that. Because when I was on - been on the block, oh, about less than twelve months the Lands Department had a big mess on the shores of the lake, and the staff used to go there for their meals and they used to have a - - -. They had a Manager and they had a Cook and, oh, they lived on the fat of the land. Well after I left the survey and went on to the block, one or two of them in the office there, they knew I'd been doing cooking, and they'd come out, 'Hey, cook's gone. What about coming and helping us out?' And I used to ride the bike in, down to the place. And they had a chap there, he was an offsider, he used to do all the pots and pans and peel the things up. And I used to go in there and get the meals for them.

Did they pay you?

Oh yes, and that's when they said - - Oh, the Engineer, he said, 'We're going to deduct your cubicle rent off of your pay'. I said, 'Oh well,' I says, 'You look for another cook'. (laughs) But they didn't and, oh, I stopped there quite a while with them and they had a couple of ladies there and they used to come in. Breakfast at eight o'clock. Well, some of them used to get in at eight o'clock, some of them never turned up. And I said to the Manager one day, 'Look,' I said, 'breakfast is at eight o'clock.' And I says, 'If they're not here at eight o'clock shut the door.' Oh no.' I said, 'Well, look for another cook.' And he did. (laughs) They used to come in, line up. Nobody was ever late after that. They were in at eight o'clock to get their meal. Though one chap, and that was poor old Tom my Sard, he was the Headmaster of the school up there. And Tom my said - - -. 'Oh,' I said, 'Tommy, you're too late.' I said, 'You know the orders.' Yes,' he said. 'Oh well, look, I won't be hard on you Tommy. I'll give you some toast and a cup of tea.' (laughs) He was never late after that.

Did you need to do that work to keep yourself?

I used to do that. Well, it helped to balance the budget and, you know, get a bit extra. Probably the old Red Ranger's come down and you could get a bottle of beer. That used to come down from Berri once, or a couple of times a week. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 25. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Would you have managed if you hadn't been doing that work?

Oh yes. I mean, you were allowed so much a week, like to buy your tucker and all that, but you couldn't go galivanting around too much.

This was the frost relief was it?

No, this was the Government - they allowed you so much I think it was.

Was that part of the deal?

Part of the deal. But you had to pay it back. You didn't get anything for nothing. Yes, they had the big cyclone up there. That went up across the lake. It went right through - right up the town. I know the doctor's place, he got - his place got all damaged. You see, only a section - it went straight through.

Did it affect you?

No, I got out of it pretty right. Might've lost a bit of the drying racks and things like that. But parts of it there were bad.

Let's talk about when you were on the surveying team. What do you remember about that time?

Well I don't know how I got on the survey team, but I know they wanted somebody. Anyhow, I decided, yes, I'll go on. And there was this chap named Arthur, he was the Surveyor. There was a chap named Sims, he was a levelling assistant, and a chap called Solly Vohr, he was a levelling assistant. So I went assistant to Solly Vohr. And used to go out with the - fix the levels up and all that. We used to do four miles a day. That's what we were supposed to do - four miles a day, through the scrub. I used to do pretty well with Solly. He could run like a deer and I wasn't bad - I could run - and we used to finish at a reasonable time, and come home. Poor old Sim mo, he'd be having a look, and he could never get his levels right. The chap, instead of holding the staff on the dumpy or - he put it on the ground there, he couldn't get them right. 'Oh, God, don't know how you do it.' Poor old Sim mo. And he was the one that told me I was shaking the earth. Overland Corner. One frosty morning.

Tell me that one again.

We were out there this nice cold frosty morning, and harnessed up, and we got the other side of - towards the Overland Telegraph Line - and that was going good. And it was blowing and I was clapping me hands and stamping me feet, and poor old Sim mo he - oh, he'd be twenty or thirty yards away from me, ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 26. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

trying to set up his theodolite - and he couldn't get the bubble right. And he looked over and he saw me stamping - stamping me feet - and he said, 'For God's sake, stop stamping your feet, you're shaking the earth.' (laughs) Couldn't get his bubble right. Oh dear.

That was a great place, that Overland Corner. And they used to look after you well in those survey places. We used to live on the fat of the land. We had a cow, we had a cook - yes, beaut.

Where did you live?

In tents. That was one of those tents [see photograph]. Oh yes, that was good. It was good for me until I tipped the cook out.

Why did you do that?

That's where I learnt cooking. (laughs)

How did you tip him out?

Well he wanted to go to Berri and in those days - - -. Well it's different from going to Berri now from Overland Corner. It was all a windy track, you know, in and out the mallee. And we're going along and must've hit a stump, and over he went. (laughs) Anyhow we went into Berri and coming back - we had to start in Bar mera that night - and we come back, got into camp the next morning. He said, 'Oh,' he said, 'I can't do it.' He said, 'You'll have to cook.' 'Oh,' I said, 'I'll cook. You tell me what to do.' That was where I got the training to cook. I was cook ever since. Cooked over there, cooked for Talky Evans, and he'd said, 'Hey, going to make any rock cakes today?"Yes, I'll make some rock cakes,' and he wouldn't go to work.

Who was he?

He was the Surveyor. (laughs) Then we'd go up to Ral Ral and I cooked up there. The cook we had, we were going up and we got into Renmark, and he got on the drink there and we had no cook, and old Talky, he says to me, he says, 'You can cook.' I said, 'Yes, I can cook,' so I cooked for him. And then down further there was another camp. Oldham had it and Wilton. Wilton was another Surveyor. I come down. Their cook got appendicitis. They heard I could cook, well I come and helped them out. I said, 'Yes, I'll come down.' So I used to go down there and cook for them. And they had a - - Oh, they had their wives there and they had the Manager. I said, 'Look,' I said, 'I don't mind this cooking business,' I said, 'I'm not waiting on you.' So I stopped there and one day I said to Wilton, I said, 'Oh, I think I'll give it away.' No,' he said, 'you're doing all right. You're doing all right.' No,' I said, 'I'm going to give it ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 27. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

away. I'm going back to the mob.' I give it away. I don't know how they got on.

But we got another little chap. He came off the Captain Sturt and they said to me, 'Right, you go into Renmark and pick him up.' I go into Renmark. Little joker coming, walking about that high, in a bowler hat. 'Gor blimy, beaut cook.' Anyhow, he could cook, oh, and he was good on cakes and things like that. And he'd say, 'Hey, you going to Renmark?' I'd say 'Yes, we're into the hospital tonight - see some of the nurses.' He said, 'I'll make you a cake,' and oh, he'd make cakes and we'd go in the hospital. He was a character. Cook? Oh gee. (laughs)

What did you think of the land up there?

The land was good, but the block I had was a lot of limestone. Although the vines used to do all right, but it was hard work putting the trellises in on the limestone. You used to have to get some gelignite and blast the holes out. I know we used to bore two or three holes and put the gelignite in and put the plugs in. They had the horse and dray ready and light her up and away we'd go into town - 'bang, bang.'

Was the land cleared when you went on to the block?

Oh yes, there were - - I think there was - two thirds of it was planted. Planted with sultanas, currants and gordos and doradillos, I think. There was only one part had to be planted.

Who had done that planting?

Well they had planting gangs planting all the blocks before they were allotted. See, and then you picked out your block as you wanted and applied for it, and whether you got it or not, well - -

So they pretty much decided what you were going to grow.

Oh yes, they were planted with that variety of vines. Of course then after- wards you could plant the other ones. Whatever you wanted, trees and - -

Had you had any experience in this sort of work?

No. All the experience I got was when I went up the river and worked on the nursery in the early days - worked on the nursery - and then you picked it up, pruning and all that.

It was the vine nursery was it? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKEN ZIE 28. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

The nursery, they supplied all the vines and things for the different blocks. See, and then they had planting gangs. You might get three or four in a gang, and they'd go and they'd go and - - -. They'd got a block here, well we've got to plant that. Then when they'd finished that they'd go to another block. And they used to get paid - they used to get paid on piece work. So the more they did the more they got.

Did they do it well?

Oh yes.

What else did you plant on your block?

I planted more sultanas, so it was nearly all of it. As I say, in those days, fifteen and a quarter acres wasn't enough. Most was about eighteen I suppose, it might've been more. But chaps from this last war went to Loxton. They were getting forty acres. See, so they were doing all right.

You stayed up there for many years, didn't you?

Well, 1922, and I left in 1955.

Did you remain on the same size block?

Yes. I could've got a bit of ground, like, across the road, but that was all limestone. And then I could've gone out to Loveday but then that meant going out, oh, a couple of miles. That would've meant going from one to the other and if you're irrigating home, you'd just finish there and you've have to go a couple of miles and start irrigating out there.

So how did you manage on the small block over the years?

I didn't make any money, but I sold it. The chap next door to me, he wanted it, and he wouldn't give me what I wanted so I said, 'Oh, well.' And then afterwards the chap that I sold to, he sold it to this chap for more than what I asked him in the first place. Couldn't take a trick. Still, I'm not worried.

We were looking at photographs earlier of the cubicle that you moved into. What was that like?

Just like the picture.

Bare walls?

Oh yes. Just a cubicle. And they used to give you a stove. Well, they didn't give it to you. You had a stove and all that.

I guess you would've been more used to the life than some of the others moving in. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 29. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Well, yes and no. Although the majority of them were nearly all chaps that'd been in offices or like that. I don't think too many of them had been on the land before.

You'd had a year or so up there.

Oh yes. See, I had with the survey and then with the planting gang. Well, you went around and you kept your eyes open. You could see what they were doing and all the rest of it. And the irrigation as well. You soon got to learn to do that, but I mean to say they give you water at four o'clock tonight and you might have the water all day tomorrow until the next morning. Well it meant you had to keep going round and round and the channels and the outlets, and you'd get yabbies and you never knew when there was a Joe Blake in the channel or anything else.

What's that?

Joe Blake? Snake. (laughs) So I mean, it was - - -. Used to go round. Oh, you'd go round about midnight and then if the water wasn't going too good you'd have to chase it and you'd be walking up and down round. It was like being in the trenches in France. You'd get some of them there - -

Why do you say that - the mud?

Yes. See, you'd shovel, and you'd go - you'd only have a hurricane lamp. Of course later on we got those big four burner ones. Well they were just like daylight - you could see what you were doing. Then if you got water out in the road - all mine used to run out the gate. And it finished up, they used to fine you if you got water on the road.

That happened to you?

Oh no, I don't think I paid them any money.

Were you given any sort of instruction?

No. You had to pick it up yourself, as far as I was concerned. I mean to say, there was no school or anything. You saw the vine planted, and then they were pulled up and planted. Well they would be there that long. Cut the roots [18 inches] off and just stick them in the ground. Every so [2 feet] that far. And they were all planted in rows.

Did anyone come around and see how you were doing?

Oh yes, they used to have chaps come round, have a look, see how you were going. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 30. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Was that a help?

[queries question]

Was that a help?

Did they have help?

Did they help you?

Oh yes, and then, see, when you came to the harvest time, well in those days you just had your tank and your dip buckets and you [gestures] threw down and then spread them out on the racks. Well, nowadays it's all different. Nowadays they - - I haven't seen them but they've got these mechanical things picking the grapes. Then they say they put them all on the rack and then they go round and spray them. Different altogether now.

Did you work alone on the block?

I used to do the majority of the work. Now and again Pd have to get some- body in to give me a hand. But most of it. And I used to do nearly all the pruning.

Who would you get in?

Well I was lucky, I had a - - -. There was a chap out at Loveday and he had a family - grown up - and they used to come in and help. Then it finished up, I had a fireman on the Railways - he used to come up there and he - - -. But he used to come over and help me out at the harvest. Like his train come in and he'd be finished till the next day. He'd come over and put the grapes on.

When you were starting out, you were talking about blasting the holes. Did someone help you with that?

No. I've got the crowbar out there now. It was a drill came from Broken Hill. And we used to belt this down, you know, get it out and scoop it.

What else did you have on the block? You had the grapes and the cubicle. How did you develop it otherwise? Did you grow any vegetables?

Oh, you could have your vegetable plot, but most, my ground, it was all that stony and limestone. But, oh, I used to grow a bit. We all - I have pictures somewhere of the place. Oh it was reasonably well kept.

Did you have your own horse?

Yes, I had a horse, until Ayling decided he'd branch out, and he got into tractors. And he come round, and he'd cultivate the block. When it became irrigation time he'd come around and furrow it out for the water. And then ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 31. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

when the water was finished and that, they'd come round - - -. You know, you'd pay him so much. I forget what you used to pay, but it was better than having a horse because you didn't have to find chaff or anything like that.

When did he start up with this?

He started up there - might've been '40.

So you worked the horse for a good many years.

Oh yes. There's a picture there - some of the pictures there with a horse. And then they gave you a cart - a dray - to take your fruit up. It was eight kilometres from my place to the Berri Distillery. We'd have to leave early in the morning and you'd get them there and, oh, they'd be lying back, and you mightn't get home till five o'clock at night. Well that all altered. They got chaps there with lorries and they used to do it on contract. They'd come and pick it up on your block, take it to the Distillery. You never had any worries at all.

What were the prices like for the produce when you started?

No good. Six pound a ton we used to get for doradillos. Six pound a ton, and they used to make - I forget how many gallons of wine out of them. Six pound a ton. Now I think doradillos are about a hundred and forty pound a ton.

Do you think when you started that it was a viable project that the Government had undertaken?

I think so. I don't think the Government missed out. The only thing the Government missed out was the fruit juices - not juices - the fruit, tinned fruit and stuff. I can't work for me life how they - they must be making profits on that. You try and buy a tin of fruit. And you can get fruit, comes from Western Australia - - I got a tin of fruit from Western Australia, I think it was only about seventy cents, and you can't buy a tin of fruit - - Well, I don't know about South Australia now, but it's eighty and ninety cents. So somebody's getting it. Same with the winery. There's that many wineries around the joint, how they all pay I don't know. You've only got to look in the paper. Wine!

Did you know your neighbours when you first went on to the block?

No, although the chap that was on the block next to me, he was away in the same Battalion, but I didn't know him over there. And I didn't get on too good with him. I'd be over there working for him, you know, when you wanted anything, he never worked in with me. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 32. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Was there much co-operation between the different people on the blocks?

Yes, I think they used to all work in together, you know.

When did you start on the house?

It must've been twelve - might've been twelve, eighteen months, I suppose, I was in the cube. Then they brought out these plans and they were just two rooms - you can see the picture there - and there's two rooms and the kitchen. That had a stove. And it was like four rooms you see. Well that lasted for a while, then I got a verandah round it. Then we put on another room. But that wasn't put on with money that you got from the block. That was money the wife's people - they gave her money and we put it on. Invested it in putting another room on and all the rest of it. Would never got it off the block.

What was the house made of?

Concrete. The new part we had put on that was brick.

Were the slabs brought out to the property?

No, were put up with wood and concrete poured in.

Who did the labour?

Well they were under contract I think. They had contracts to come around, and they'd show you - say, 'Well you can have this. There you are.'

END OF TAPE 2 SIDE B: TAPE 3 SIDE A

Were you sorry to see the last of the cubicle?

Oh yes. I mean, that was all right. It was different, you know, to going into a house.

You would have had your horse on the block. Was he stabled?

Yes, you had to put a stable up for them, there was nothing like it. You got the pine posts and you got all the things, and you had to build it. Had to do all kinds of jobs. Then they'd come round. 'You want a horse?' I never knew anything about horses. (laughs)

How did you pick it?

Oh, somebody said, 'There's a good horse.' I said, 'Oh yes.' Good horse is right.

Was it? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKEN ZIE 33. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

You got used to it. But I had a couple of others after that. I don't know what happened to them. Yes, horses.

Did you have any other livestock on the block?

Oh, a few fowls. A few fowls, and that's about all. But they never used to do any good.

Didn't they lay?

Oh I don't know. I didn't know anything about fowls. Oh, we had fowls there and different things.

Looking back, do you think it was a good move for you to go up there?

Yes I suppose it was because what else would I have done? It meant if I didn't go up there and I'd left the Taxation lot - - If I'd have stopped with the Taxation long I could've been a Commissioner of Taxes. (laughs)

You reckon?

Well, why not? But then, as I thought, well, what do you do? You just go in there every morning and sit down. What do you do? Same as this mob now working in Adelaide now in the banks. I've got a son-in-law works in the State Bank. God, I went in the other day there - there's three of them there, in a room, oh, only about this size - three of them. What they doing? Nothing. Oh no.

Did you want the open air?

Yes the open air. I reckon the air was good for you. And you didn't want to stop up there. About every six months you wanted to get away and a change of air. And we used to come down and go down to the beach.

How did you meet your wife?

How did I meet her? Now, let's have a look. That's a long story I think. No it's not. She had a sister who had a block nearly opposite me. He wasn't one of the originals but they had a block, like opposite there and I was here. Just across the road. And, I don't know - how the dickens did I? Oh, I don't know - - I think she might've come up there to stop with her sister - that's right. She came up there to stop with her sister and I used to go over and see Helen and have a meal with them and all that. And her sister came up and that's how I got to know her. Then, that's right, got married and that was that. And then she had another sister, and she came up there, and she married a chap Lionel White - up further on the hill. So there were the three sisters. Oh, I used to get on all right. ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 34. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Never used to get on - not too good with him though [the other sister's husband]. He was one of these chaps that liked to collect things. If he came to your place and he saw you had a couple of chisels or, you know, any imple- ment. He was good at working on his work. He'd say, 'Oh, I'd like some of them,' and he'd go and get some. And then if you went over and asked of a lend of them, 'I haven't got one.' And when he died he had that many - oh God, I could've had - - -. (laughs) I should've had a bucket full. He had everything in the world. He had a cubicle there and I've often wondered what he'd have in it. And his wife said, 'I don't know what Ted's got in there.' And do you know what was in it? All pots of paint, you know, empty tins. There was a cubicle like that cubicle, full. Oh, no trouble. Yes, tins of paint.

What was your wife's background?

[queries question]

What was your wife's background?

My wifes - - -?

What did her people come from?

The [Cooper's] Brewery. Well that was the picture - showed you there. He was the one that brought it up. But in those days, you see, they never used to worry about selling beer or anything else. They just - - -. See, they never had any hotels or anything like that. It was only years later that they brought in - - I remember going down there with him, and it's different now to what it was when I used to go down with him. And you'd got down in the cellar and all the bottles there were all laid out in lime. And then when they'd send them out they used to bring them up and they'd have three or four chaps around washing the bottles and then pasting the labels on. Don't do that now. And that used to be - - -. It used to go from one street to the other street and you could look right through. I forget how many dozens there, but all bottles. It's not now.

What did you wife think of moving up to Bar mera?

All right. Oh yes, she enjoyed it. We used to go to a lot of places. We used to go - - -. We got a car after Jean was born [in 1927], and I drove it from - - I couldn't drive a car. (laughs) Get a car. So I went out in a bloke's 'Chev. All right, get hold of it and drive it, and we went up Greenhill Road, you know we'd get up the rise. Got half way up there and I said 'What do we do now?' Anyhow I stopped it, and I said to the bloke - oh, he said, 'You can drive it back.' And drove it back. I said, 'I'd never driven a car before you ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 35. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

know.' (laughs) Anyhow, we got back, and we bought this other car. And the wife, Jean, they went up in the train, and her sister, and I went in the car. Well the train goes right along the road and I think it was Eudunda I saw them. And then I saw them when I got up to Morgan. Oh, just about the same time as the train. And then we had to go from Morgan to drive home. Of course those days no bitumen road. No bitumen roads.

So you would have got your first car in the late twenties would you?

About '22, '23 - yes about '24, '25 or something. An Oldsmobile it was. That was all right. Used to take eight hours to come from Bar mera to Adelaide. Well you can go up there in three hours now.

You say you'd come down about twice a year?

Oh no, come down more than that. She used to come down and I'd come down and we'd come down and stop down there, or else we'd go down to Victor to see the old people at a place at Victor. And we used to go down there. Of course the girls, they came to school down here and used to come down and pick them up and take them home. Go to Mildura. Go to Loxton. She had another sister over at Nadda - we used to go over there.

Did your wife make any changes when she first came to the block, or the house?

No. No, she used to like gardening and all that. Do this and do that.

Did she help on the block?

No. Oh no.

Can you tell me about the RSL Branch starting up there?

Well that started in 1922 and - what's his name? The District Officer, he married a Canadian - now what was his name? Anyhow, he started it, and then, I don't know - - -. No, it wasn't - it was - - -. But I know I took on the Secretary's job after 1922 - it might've been '23. Anyhow they've got me name up on the Roll of Honour up there. But I only did it for twelve months. Dick Simes, he was afterward Manager of the Bar mera Co-op Packing Shed. He took it on. And then Bonnar, I think, took over from Simes, and Bonnar lasted - oh he lasted a good number of years. He took over the Manager of the Bar mera Hotel. That was after Tonkin died. No, twelve months, and I said to Langdon - that was - Les Langdon. He was the District Officer. I said, "Nothing to get the boys in,' I said. 'Nothing here. Can't get anything.' I said 'We'll get some beer from Berri on the Red Ranger.' We used to come down and I'd have a table like that an cut the meat and bottles of beer, and ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKEN ZIE 36. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

they come down there and have a night out. You know, you couldn't have it that much because we never had much money. Yes, I did it for twelve months. I've got a picture somewhere out there now. When I came down here to the - - [break to look at picture]

Was it an active Branch at Bar mera?

Oh yes. I don't know what it's like now.

What about in the early days, because the RSL hadn't been going long?

Oh, it was quite active there for, well, even when Bonnar had it. He was Secretary for quite a number of years. I know I came down - I don't know what I've done with that picture. And I came down here in 19 - - Oh, I was a delegate then - 1923 it must've been. And that's where I got the big picture and it's got all of them there. Bill McCann, Ross Jacob - oh, all of them. They're all there.

What about Anzac Day in the early years?

In the early - - We used to come down and they used to give us a free rail ticket, and we'd come down. We used to be quite a number come down then. We'd come down on the train from Morgan. Quite a number used to come down for that.

Would you go down?

Oh yes, I used to come down. Didn't go down every year, but - - I went this year. Of course didn't have to march. Took us in the jeeps.

When you first went up to Bar mera, of course, there wasn't anything there much where the town now stands.

No, there was nothing at all. Well, they used to have a few dances. A few dances around the place. Of course you used to have to go on the horse and dray. And then they used to have, you know, have a party. You might say, 'Oh, come out to my place,' and they'd all go out there. House war mings.

I remember seeing that you had a picture show fairly early.

Yes, they ran a picture show there. I think Appleton ran - - -. No, can't think. No, there was a mob from town used to come up and show pictures. And then Appleton took it over, and I think his son still runs the pictures up there. Yes, Bar mera - I mean, it's mild to what it used to be. It used to be all golf links and, you know, flat clay plans and all that. But I see it now. Oh now, wouldn't imagine it in the olden days. And then they moved the school.

When you sold up in 1955, did you come down to Adelaide? ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 37. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Yes.

Did you come to this house?

No, we came down, we went to a place in Rothbury Avenue, over there near the Burnside Council Chamber. We stopped there until her sister wanted a place and there was a place built up at Wattle Park and between the two of us we bought that and she - - -. Back part - still there. Carrunda Avenue I think it was. And then she decided that she wanted to go into a unit or something. And then she went down to a unit and we came over here.

Had you retired when you sold up?

What?

Did you continue to work?

Yes. Didn't you know? Oh, cor, blimy Charlie, yes. (laughs) Oh yes, I - - The wife said, 'Oh, you can't stop around. You've got to do something,' and I said, 'Oh yes.' I went in and got a job with the Agricultural Department. You know, picking fruit - fruit fly. And I was on that - oh, on that for a long time - picking fruit. And they say, 'Could you manage a gang?' 0h,' I said, 'I suppose I could.' Italians and all sorts. (laughs) Oh, gee. And I'm supposed to go around and tell them all - come and have fruit and all that. Some of these new Australians would come up to me, 'Hey, boss, him eat fruit.' Him eat the fruit.' I'd say, 'Oh, that's all right if I didn't see it.' (laughs) Catch him eating fruit. And I finished up, I used to go down with a lorry and we used to go down to Outer Harbour and they'd put it on the launch and take it out to sea and throw it in the water. And another time I walked from Largs Bay to - - -. No, from the Semaphore. Semaphore to the Outer Harbour, picking up fruit. Somebodycoming (laughs) Oh gee.

Then it was after that I see a job advertised, wanted a lift driver. And that was at Good, Durrant & Murray's. I thought, 'Oh, I'll go and have a look.' Anyhow I went in and Read man was Manager there, and he said, 'Yes,' and I told him. 'Oh yes,' I said, 'I know all about the rag trade.' See, I knew from when I was - after I left school at this other place. I knew of that - what they had and what they'd didn't have. 'All right,' he said, 'I'll let you know.' I hardly got home and he said, 'Can you start in the morning?' And I went in and, one of those lifts, you know, you could see out, where they work and that. I used to come home and go to bed - up and down, up and down! (laughter) About a fortnight and I said, 'Oh, I won't last long here.' I had nine years with them. Going up and down. So I got to know - oh, got to know ATB/11/129-14 Mr Neil Seaforth MacKENZIE 38. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

dozens and dozens of people, all round South Australia, different places. And you'd go up the bush or somewhere or you'd go over to any country town, and you'd go in the shop - 'Oh, know you."Yes, taken you for a ride,' I said.

When did you retire?

Well I gave them away in 19 - about 1970 it must've been. '70, yes, must've been. Because they gave me that lounge out there that's lay back. I could've stopped there until they wrecked the place. And I says, 'Oh no,' I said, 'Give it away.'

You were well past retiring age then.

Oh yes.

Well, I think we've done pretty well this afternoon. ATB/11/129-14i Mr Neil Seaforth MACKENZIE 40. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

Thomas, Minerva see MacKenzie, Warehouses Minerva Warehouses—Employees Veterans—Employment Water-supply, Rural Vineyard labourers 'Wilderness' (The) School Viticulture see also P8514A ATB/11/129-14i Mr Neil Seaforth MACKENZIE 39. 'S.A. SPEAKS' 8514

INDEX

Notes to the Index Users of this Index should note that in many instances the particular word used for the index heading will not be found in the text. The conversational vocabularies of most people do not correspond to the Library of Congress subject headings which have, in the main, been adhered to in the construction of this index. Users are also directed to the main card index to the 'S.A. Speaks' project. Abbreviations L8514 Letter in File 8.514 P8514A-H Photographs in File 8514 passim 'in various parts' Family names Rather than index names of all family members and relatives mentioned in each interview, entries are included that indicate surnames (including women's maiden names) of at least the Interviewee's father and mother, and spouse, when applicable. Other relatives are indexed if significant mention is made of them.

INTERIM SUBJECT HEADING LIST Adelaide High School Horses Alcohol see also P8514G Australia. Army— Military life Infants Australia. Army —Recruiting and Irrigation and Reclamation Commission enlistment Irrigation farming — Bar mera see also P8514B see also P8514E-H Australia. Army. 10th Battalion MacKenzie, Alice Lillah Automobiles MacKenzie, David Bar mera MacKenzie, Minerva Bar mera — Irrigation far ming MacKenzie, Neil Seaforth see also, P8514E-H see also P8514A-H Bar mera — Irrigation far ming Military service, Compulsory — Dwellings Military service, Voluntary see also P8514E,F Neighbourliness Commercial travellers Nicknames Cooks Oral tradition—Family Cooper, Alice Lillah see MacKenzie, Overland Corner Alice see also P8514D Costume Peterborough Courtship Physical distribution of goods Dwellings — Bar mera Portuguese see also P8514E,F Railways— Employees Education, Primary — North Adelaide Recruiting and enlistment Education, Secondary — Adelaide see also P8514B Education, Worth of Returned Services League Employment, Means of gaining Rylands & Sons (Colonial) Ltd England School of Art (The Adelaide) European War, 1914-1918 — Campaigns Scottish —France Snakes European War, 1914-1918 —Peace Soldiers Fathers and sons see also P8514C; L8514 see also L8514 Soldiers—Attitudes Foster home care—Informal Soldiers— Language France Soldiers—Recreation Freemasons Soldiers' settlements see also L8514 see also P8514E-H Gaelic Surveying — Overland Corner Grapes— Harvesting see also P8514D see also P8514G-H Surveyors Grapes—Irrigation Tents Grapes_ Varieties see also P8514D