Vol. 714 Wednesday No. 134 11 November 2009

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Israel Crime: Domestic Violence Terrorism Act 2006 Unemployment Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknote Regulations 2009 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2009 Motion to Approve Skills for Growth Statement Policing and Crime Bill Third Reading Coroners and Justice Bill Commons Reasons and Amendments Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] Commons Amendments Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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© Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2009, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 795 Israel[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Israel 796

Lord Lea of Crondall: I wish noble Lords opposite House of Lords would be more civilised and listen for a minute. The boycott demand is all about goods produced in illegal Wednesday, 11 November 2009. settlements. The TUC has begun holding informal talks, both with Histadrut, the Israeli trade union 3pm centre, and with the PGFTU, which is its rough parallel in Palestine. These talks cover, inter alia, the interests Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Winchester. of the Palestinian workers in the area of the illegal settlements. Israel Question Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: As the noble Lord is aware, the Prime Minister and the British Government 3.07 pm have been very clear at all times on the issue of illegal Asked By Baroness Deech settlements, which we see as an obstacle to peace. The Government are exploring the possibility of improving To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action the labelling of produce from the West Bank. We are they will take to make the Trades Union Congress also working with the European Union to ensure that aware of their position on boycotts of Israel. goods from settlements do not benefit from the EU The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth trading agreements with Israel. We believe that this is Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): My Lords, we an issue of individual choice and that all retailers and discuss policy frequently with a wide range of stakeholders, consumers should have the information that they need including the TUC. I chair a regular meeting with to decide what produce they wish to buy. I say to my TUC leaders as part of this dialogue. We agree on a noble friend that we have worked very well with the great many issues, especially the need to achieve a just, TUC on this initiative in the past and hope to continue two-state solution. As part of this dialogue, we have to do so in the future. made very clear the Government’s stance on boycotts. Lord Wright of Richmond: My Lords, does the Baroness Deech: I thank the Minister for her response Minister accept that many, if not all, calls for boycotts and welcome her views. Does she agree that British of Israel reflect genuine and justifiable concern about unions display an unbalanced fixation in calling for the constant erosion of Palestinian rights in the Occupied boycotts of Israel in the light of extensive human Territories, not least the continuing expansion of illegal rights violations and occupations, including security settlements in both the West Bank and Jerusalem in fences, in other countries, such as Sri Lanka, Saudi spite of President Obama’s demands that there should Arabia, Morocco in relation to Western Sahara, Iran be an immediate and total freezing of all settlement and northern Cyprus, which do not elicit such calls? activity? Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: I thank the noble Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, settlement Baroness. I reiterate that the United Kingdom believes activity is illegal. It prejudges peace talks and must be that disinvestment, sanctions and boycotts directed at halted immediately. This includes, of course, in east Israel would be counterproductive. Isolation of Israel Jerusalem, to which the noble Lord alluded. Israel is would advance neither Britain’s influence nor, most committed through the road map and the Annapolis important, the prospects of peace in the Middle East. conference to freeze all settlement activity, as the We continue to focus on the wider perspective, which noble Lord suggests, and immediately to dismantle is to continue to strive towards a comprehensive peace settlement outposts erected since March 2001. We process in the Middle East. That includes supporting raise this issue consistently with the Israeli Government. the United States in its efforts now to launch that The Prime Minister stressed it during his meeting with process. Prime Minister Netanyahu in August and several times in further conversations. Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords— Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, does the Minister Lord Lea of Crondall: Would my noble friend take accept that the sympathy and support that many of us note of the fact that the TUC, in pursuing the difficult have for the security of the state of Israel rest on our issue of goods produced in what we all know to be— understanding that Israel is a democracy with a deep commitment to the rule of law? If we are asked, as the Noble Lords: Oh! noble Baroness, Lady Deech, suggested, to judge Israel Lord Lea of Crondall: It is not mandatory to give by the standard only of Saudi Arabia, Sri Lanka and way to a privy counsellor. The TUC, in pursuing the Morocco, Israel is in severe danger of losing that difficult issue of goods produced in what we all know moral advantage. to be illegal settlements, which is what the boycott Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: I thank the noble demand is all about, has begun holding informal Lord and, of course, accept that many standards will talks— be mentioned and judgments made about Israel and Noble Lords: Reading! other countries with which we deal in this House. Lord Lea of Crondall: It is important that I am Lord Clinton-Davis: At a time when joint training accurate. between Israeli and Palestinian trade unions is being fostered, is it not damaging in the extreme to engage in Noble Lords: Oh! diatribes about boycotts? 797 Israel[LORDS] Crime: Domestic Violence 798

Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: I thank the noble is necessary to reduce the domestic violence problem? Lord. It is the view of the British Government that Can the Government provide additional help for setting trade unions and others are free to talk about boycotts; up and supporting such initiatives? they are very keen to engage with us on this issue. However, we still believe that we should not focus on Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, we take this sanctions and boycotts at this critical time. As noble matter extremely seriously. One of the biggest studies of Lords are well aware, President Obama has reconfirmed violence against women and girls, following the violence his commitment to the peace process. We have hoped against women and girls consultation, was published for many years to have a US President prepared from earlier this year. As a result, we are working with private day one to devote himself and his Administration to groups, local councils and the police in a raft of areas the creation of a Palestinian state living peacefully to make progress with what is a most horrible crime. alongside Israel. Some of the statistics in this area are quite awful.

Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, mention has been Lord Soley: My Lords, is my noble friend aware of made of the rule of law. the example of the charity Standing Together Against Domestic Violence? Part of its aim is to help organisations Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords— in this area to integrate and co-ordinate their work, The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness and it has been a model for other parts of the country. Royall of Blaisdon): We should hear from the Could we do more to advertise what it does to other Conservatives. local authorities, courts and police services? It is a very good model to follow. Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, is it really the business of this House to inquire why the TUC should Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, it is a very good take account of the protests with regard to Israel or model to follow and it is part of the package of work any other member state other than our own? that is going on in this area. I think that we can advertise the charity’s work more, as there are whole Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: My Lords, I think areas, such as refuges, where we deal with local area that we should always be willing and anxious to listen agreements. For example, the amount of money funding and respond to issues raised by the TUC. These issues the Supporting People scheme has gone up from are raised by many trade union organisations across £61.6 million to about £65 million over the past two years. Europe and, indeed, in the UK—by the Scottish TUC, Therefore, we are putting money into these areas but I for example. That is why we think it important to do not think that we can be complacent. We have to do make this response. more because, as I said, domestic violence accounts for something like 14 per cent of all serious violent incidents Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords— that come into our courts. It is a very serious issue. Lord Turnberg: My Lords— Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, the police have recently been criticised across the board Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs for issuing too many cautions. One of the main (Lord Davies of Oldham): This side. recommendations from the Home Affairs Select Committee was that the police should not issue cautions for breaches Noble Lords: Next Question. of injunctions relating to domestic violence. Have they been so instructed and what has been the result? Crime: Domestic Violence Question Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I do not believe that they have been told specifically that they are not 3.15 pm to do that. It is very interesting that in 2003 only Asked By Lord Sheikh 46 per cent of domestic violence cases brought to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps court resulted in a conviction, whereas now the figure they are taking to reduce the level of domestic is 72 per cent. Therefore, I think that we are focusing on violence nationwide. and pushing down into these areas. However, the noble Baroness makes a very valid point and I shall The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home take it away and ask whether the police have specifically Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, the been told to do that. It is important that we move in Government are committed to reducing the impact of that direction. domestic violence on victims and their families. The Government’s programme for tackling domestic violence The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, given the important can be found in the National Domestic Violence Delivery role of social workers in supporting these families Plan, which was published as part of the fourth national and, in particular, protecting the children in them, domestic violence annual report on 21 August 2009. I does the Minister share my deep concern at reports have arranged for a copy to be placed in the House today in the media that six out of 10 local authorities Library. are having difficulty retaining their social workers—a 50 per cent increase—since the death of Baby Peter? Lord Sheikh: My Lords, I thank the Minister for Will he communicate to his colleagues the deep concern that response. Does he support the view that a greater that social work must be prioritised still further if we focus on educating perpetrators of domestic violence are to resolve these issues? 799 Crime: Domestic Violence[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Terrorism Act 2006 800

Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I can assure the Terrorism Act 2006 noble Earl that the Government take this very seriously Question indeed. It is, of course, an extremely difficult area to work in, so I can understand why there is a shortage of 3.23 pm people going into it. We are pursuing this issue, but it is worth looking at the good news and what we have Asked By Lord Naseby achieved. We now have in place 127 specialist domestic violence courts. We were aiming for a total of 128 and To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many we are about eight months earlier than we thought we websites have been closed under the Terrorism Act 2006. would be. We have provided £7.8 million to roll out independent domestic violence advisers and the multi-agency The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home risk assessment conferences. We now have 700 advisers Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, the police’s and 200 advisory conferences. This is a huge step preferred route for removing potentially unlawful terrorist forward. In the past 12 months we have been able to content is through informal contact with the internet protect 29,000 victims of domestic abuse. It is a horrible service provider. They are happy with the impact of number but the fact that we are doing that is quite an this approach to date. As a result, it has not yet been achievement by the Government. necessary for them to use the formal powers given under the Terrorism Act 2006 to close any websites. Baroness Corston: My Lords, is my noble friend aware that one woman a week in the United Kingdom Lord Naseby: My Lords, is it not extraordinary is murdered as a result of domestic violence? Will he that—after an Act was passed following the 7/7 bombings, accept that in my work as the chair of the Fawcett in response particularly to pressure from Prime Minister Commission on Women and the Criminal Justice System Blair; and in view of the emphasis that the current it has been evident that the Government’s initiative on Prime Minister puts on terrorism—according to the domestic violence courts, independent domestic violence Answer that the noble Lord has just given, we are still advisers and sexual assault referral centres has gone a allowing these websites to exist and to be the lungs of long way towards addressing the seriousness of this publicity for the terrorists, modified only by the judgment crime and its designation and treatment as a crime of someone in the police force? throughout our statutory services, including the police in many constabularies? Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, my Answer did not say that we are allowing those things to happen; Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I thank my noble we have a whole raft of measures. We are removing friend who has put it much more succinctly than I websites on a voluntary basis with the ISPs. We are have in my previous answers. We have achieved a great countering them by putting our own stuff on them. deal but that does not mean that we are complacent. We are talking to local community activists, who put There is more to do but her question shows that we are stuff on the websites. We are looking at how we can pushing in a huge number of areas. It is important filter them. We have talked to all the various providers that we keep doing that. to ensure that we do that filtering, and we have looked at reducing access in areas of search engines and in things like Facebook. We are doing a huge raft of Baroness Gardner of Parkes: Does the Minister work. Indeed, I would be embarrassed to stand here, have details of how much domestic violence is fuelled having been doing this for two years and pushing it, to by alcohol or drugs and whether any special response find that we had not done that. We are out there in is provided for such cases? amongst it really trading blows toe-to-toe. We are doing that and we are actually getting somewhere on Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I do not know this. Now, that does not mean that we do not have to the specific answer to that but I would guess on my keep working—it is very difficult. As we know—and feet that it is dramatically fuelled by alcohol and this is part of the Cyber Security Strategy—a lot of drugs. We know that they have a huge impact on this is international. A lot of this is abroad—it is violence generally. I do not know the exact percentages carried on by ISPs abroad. We have to deal with them but I shall get back to the noble Baroness in writing. internationally. However, I can assure this House that we are really working hard in this area. We will jolly The Lord Bishop of Chichester: My Lords, is the well get there, and we will jolly well knock them for six Minister aware that alongside the very important work finally. done by statutory agencies a huge amount of work on domestic violence is done by local community groups, Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, many of which find survival difficult because of can Minister say a little more about how his department inconsistency of funding? co-operates with other countries which are hosting websites of this nature? Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the right reverend Prelate is absolutely right. Indeed, a couple of those Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Baroness groups have been unable to get over the bar for funding touches on something that is very difficult. We are in in the past year. We have not reduced the amount of negotiation with a number of countries about this; as I funding; it is just that the demands for it are that much said, the issue impinges on our whole Cyber Security greater. It is an issue that we must look at as it is Strategy. Cyberspace is global—that is one of the important to keep them fully involved. problems with it—and many of these actors are acting 801 Terrorism Act 2006[LORDS] Unemployment 802

[LORD WEST OF SPITHEAD] The Earl of Erroll: My Lords, surely the terrorism elsewhere. Finding out who has done something, finding websites should be closed down by the Serious and out which server the information is on and where it Organised Crime Agency, not by local police forces. has come from, is very difficult. It takes very detailed and hard work. I am glad to say that we have some of Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, we operate in the best people in the world doing this work, but it is this country by letting the local police carry on and highly complicated. take those particular actions. SOCA is very closely We deal with those countries, negotiate with them involved in some of these arenas, as is GCHQ and and talk about these things. However, some countries others, but the police take the action. are not willing to do this—it is quite difficult—which is when we have to confront the problem and approach The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, can we have some it in other ways. But we are working with many advice on websites that instruct people on how to countries and trying to get international agreements. make bombs and are, in effect, sources of information We have managed to do that in terms of paedophilia rather than terrorist websites? It is unfortunate that and child pornography and we need to try to do the people can just Google the question, “How can you same in this area, but it is much more complicated. blow everybody up?”. What is violent extremism and what it is allowable for someone to say involve difficult nuances. Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the noble Earl identifies a difficult area. If that is tied to things that Lord Swinfen: My Lords, are some of these websites are inciting people to take action, it is much more a source of information in the battle against terrorism? straightforward, but it is very difficult when it is just straight information. One of the reasons I am concerned Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I do not think about the whole area of CBRNE—chemical, biological, that I want to talk about that. radiological and novel explosive-type stuff—is that the Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, my noble availability of such detailed information on the internet friend indicated that it had not been necessary to use is quite worrying. A lot of that—for example, stuff to the powers under the Terrorism Act 2006 because of do with biological—we cannot take off because there the levels of co-operation and work being done with is no reason why it should not be there. However, it is internet service providers to block access to particular extremely worrying because, more than ever, there is sites. Is that co-operation forthcoming from all the access to things that are very dangerous. internet service providers operating in this country, or are some providers perhaps less co-operative? Lord Pearson of Rannoch: My Lords, when we use the word terrorism in this context, are we mostly Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, so far, the police referring to violent Islamism, to the jihadists, or are have not found it necessary to use what they could use other sects involved when we use that word, in which from the Act. That means that they have managed to case how many and to what extent? achieve what they want to achieve. It would be wrong to say that everyone is as co-operative, because they Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, the word terrorism are not. There is one area of weakness that I thought applies to a whole spectrum of people. The greatest someone might ask me about, and that I am not happy threat to our nation at the moment, without a doubt, with. It is that because police forces are operationally is al-Qaeda or al-Qaeda-inspired terrorism, but there separate, they have probably not recorded formally as are a number of others. I would not wish to go well as they should exactly when they have shut down through them all, but all of them are monitored and a site. We are in negotiations about that. When we have action taken against them if they are breaking passed the Act in 2006, we laid down a requirement to the law. make such records, but it has not really been done. The Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism is now Unemployment talking in great detail to the Association of Chief Police Officers, and the requirement will be met. We Question need to make sure that records are properly kept 3.30 pm because we need to have precise facts to work on. The successes of the police forces are not being registered, Asked By Lord Roberts of Conwy and that needs to happen. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, apropos of the forecast that unemployment will begin to fall. Minister’s last remark, did he say how many sites have been recorded as having been shut down? The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Department Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I would be for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Luton): My nervous of giving a figure because it would be meaningless Lords, by long-standing convention, the Government as records have not been kept by all 51 police forces do not publish unemployment forecasts. around the country. That is why we are doing this work now to ensure that records are formally kept. We Lord Roberts of Conwy: My Lords, I expected that are talking with ACPO about the need to get the reply, but I thought that the Minister might have taken precise figures. We need statistics and figures that are advantage of this opportunity to welcome today’s meaningful and can be accepted and used within this figures, because they show a welcome slowdown in the House. growth of unemployment. However, does the noble 803 Unemployment[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Unemployment 804

Lord share the general view that the outlook for jobs Lord Freud: My Lords— remains pretty grim, especially for young people, one in five of whom is out of work? Is the main problem The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department lack of demand in the economy or lack of confidence for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Davies to invest and recruit on the part of employers? of Oldham): It is the Liberals’ turn.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: Well, my Lords, I am Lord Newby: My Lords, does the Minister accept pleased that I did not disappoint the noble Lord in my that many people find that the scale of the Government’s first response. Like him, I welcome today’s figures. response to growing unemployment, particularly growing The ONS figures show some progress, the ILO youth unemployment, has been disappointingly small? unemployment figure has risen more slowly than expected Does he further accept that the Government would and there are more people in work in October than have been a lot better off spending the £12 billion that previously, so there has been an increase in employment. they frittered away on the temporary VAT reduction—that As for young people, that is an important matter and particularly wasteful and pointless measure—on putting we do not see the challenges of unemployment having in place stronger measures to deal with youth yet been fully dealt with, which is why the investment unemployment? that the Government are making, particularly to help the young and long-term unemployed, is very important. Lord McKenzie of Luton: No, my Lords, I do not It was announced today that the Future Jobs Fund accept that. The fiscal stimulus that the Government has created further jobs, bringing the total of that promoted has been very important in making sure programme up to 95,000 new jobs in our economy. that families have more money in their budget and Lord Tomlinson: My Lords, can I tempt my noble that the cash flow of businesses is supported through friend to go a little further? There are not just good the deferral of tax payments. Those are just two of the figures this month; it is the second month in a row components, quite apart from issues around stabilising when the unemployment figures have shown a trend the banking system, which is important in giving downwards. Does he therefore welcome the fact that stability to the macroeconomic framework that needs even the television stablemate of the Sun newspaper to underpin the addressing of unemployment. We was referring to the figures today as being good news? have made the right policy decisions, in stark contrast This is good news in which we expect everyone to join, to the party opposite, which has always made the rather than continuing the practice of finding the bad wrong policy decisions. news within it. Lord Freud: Given the admirably flexible response Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, as ever, I agree of industry in this recession in terms of switching over fully with my noble friend, but we are not out of the to part-time employment, does the Minister expect a woods yet, which is why we continue to need to invest further lag in employment pick-up as this effect unwinds? and why the programmes that the Government have put in place and invested in have to remain in place. If Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I said at the we were to remove that funding now, as some—including start that the Government do not issue unemployment the party opposite—suggest, that would be the wrong forecasts. A range of different factors goes into creating choice for our country. and addressing unemployment. Clearly, the structure of the job market, with perhaps more flexibility and Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Does the Minister accept more part-time working, is a benefit as well as one of that we must see economic growth of 2 per cent before the challenges. unemployment starts coming down? Lord Snape: My Lords, while these figures are not Lord McKenzie of Luton: No, my Lords, I am not exactly cause for celebration, would the Minister agree sure that I accept that. that they represent good news? Would he also agree that unemployment, serious though it is, has never Lord St John of Bletso: My Lords, given that approached the levels reached under the previous unemployment tends to lag behind a recovery in the Government, when, if my memory serves me right, at market and that almost 50 per cent of those unemployed least one, and possibly two, members of the party are under the age of 26, what measures are being taken opposite were Ministers? to promote youth training? Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, a whole raft of Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I absolutely measures has been taken to support young people; we agree with my noble friend. There are now something will hear about some of them from my noble friend like 29 million people in employment; at the worst of Lord Mandelson when he makes his Statement shortly. the 1992-94 recession there were just 25 million and We need to put youth unemployment in context. Although during the 1980s recession there were 23.5 million. it increased by 15,000 over the last quarter, there has The unemployment rate now is 7.8 per cent. In 1992-93, been a 14,000 rise in the number of full-time students. it was 10.7 per cent and, in the 1980s, it was, at worst, If you look at the total of unemployed under-25 year-olds, 11.9 per cent. which is some 943,000, you see that 267,000 of them are in full-time education. There is a shift in this The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness cohort. Royall of Blaisdon): My Lords, at the end of today’s Question Time, it may be useful if I draw the attention Lord Newby: My Lords— of the House to some guidance about Questions that 805 Unemployment[LORDS] Skills for Growth 806

[BARONESS ROYALL OF BLAISDON] vocational route from apprenticeship to technician to came out of a leaders’ group chaired by my noble foundation degree and beyond. Equipping unemployed friend Lady Hilton of Eggardon in 1999. The report people with the skills that they need to get jobs in key concluded: sectors will be essential to a strong recovery, and let us “If two … Lords rise at once, they should be … ready to give remember that by equipping more of the domestic way immediately, rather than provoke a shouting-match, which is population with the right skills to compete for jobs we undignified and wastes time. If the Leader rises, other Lords help employers to become less reliant on migrant should sit down at once”. labour. Addressing these skills challenges has been the focus Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknote of our skills strategy in recent years, and remains the Regulations 2009 foundation on which our new policies build. We recognise Motion to Approve that skills have historically been an area of British competitive weakness. Since 1997, we have made real 3.38 pm progress in tackling the economic and social scandal of adult illiteracy and innumeracy. We will not abandon Moved By Lord Davies of Oldham our promise of basic skills for all. That the draft regulations laid before the House We have eradicated much of the poor quality that on 13 October be approved. blighted our further education system. We have transformed workplace training through Train to Gain, Relevant document: 22nd Report from the Joint which has trained more than 1 million employees and Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in helped them to get on in work. We have revived Grand Committee on 9 November. apprenticeships, which were allowed to wither away in the 1980s and 1990s. The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children Motion agreed. and Learning Bill, which received its Third Reading in this House yesterday, will ensure that this progress is Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) sustained. Order 2009 This skills strategy builds on the progress that has Motion to Approve already been made. It reflects some important decisions and marks a radical shift in the balance of our skills Moved By Lord West of Spithead priorities. It reflects the world in which we find ourselves: a world in which higher-level skills have never been That the draft order laid before the House on more important to our growth, and where the skills 19 October be approved. challenge has to be tackled within more constrained Relevant document: 23rd Report from the Joint resources. Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in We have made some difficult choices. The crisis Grand Committee on 9 November. help that we targeted to help to counter the effects of the recession will progressively be refocused on the Motion agreed. skills that we need for a sustained recovery. We have taken three key decisions. First, we will change the Skills for Growth focus of our skills system so that a new premium is put Statement on higher skills, especially the technician skills that are the foundation of high-tech, low-carbon industry. Secondly, we will empower learners through more 3.39 pm choice and better information to drive up the quality The First Secretary of State, Secretary of State for of the system through skills accounts. Thirdly, we will Business, Innovation and Skills and Lord President of dramatically reduce the number of publicly supported the Council (Lord Mandelson): My Lords, with your bodies delivering skills policy, working with the UK Lordships’ permission, I would like to make a Statement Commission for Employment and Skills to reduce on our policies for skills and their role in our future them by more than 30. These choices will target public economic growth. investment at the most relevant skills for the future at An active government approach to equipping this the highest possible levels of quality and marketability. country for globalisation means making sure that we The first of these decisions reflects the need for a have the skills that underwrite the industries and jobs new focus on the skills that we need in the laboratory, of the future. That means skills for the high-tech, on the high-tech factory floor and in the computer low-carbon, more high-value-added sectors that drive facility. We will create a new, modern class of the growth that underwrites everything else we want to technicians—something that has long been identified achieve as a society. These skills are becoming more as a gap in our labour market. To build this technician sophisticated and even more vital. class, we will further expand the apprenticeship system I also start from the position that skills in our by creating 35,000 new advanced places for those aged society must always be an individual’s ladder up. That 19 to 30 over the next two years. The aim of creating is why the skills system also needs to mesh with our this technician class will also be aided by the new university system. We need schools and colleges to generation of university technical colleges, the creation make a strong vocational offer that leads to a clear of which we are supporting. 807 Skills for Growth[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Skills for Growth 808

To turn these apprenticeships into potential ladders Our expectations of business will rise. We will to university, from 2011 all apprenticeship frameworks strengthen the role of employer-led sector skills councils at levels 3 and 4 will be required to have UCAS tariff and business-led regional development agencies in points just like A-levels, so that holders can apply for shaping an excellent supply of courses and training and make their way into university if they so choose. designed in direct response to local and national employer We will also commit to the recommendation of Alan needs. But we will also expect businesses to make a Milburn’s Panel on Fair Access to the Professions that greater contribution to the funding of skills training we should create an apprenticeship scholarship fund for their workforce. We need a culture in which all that will provide one-off bursaries of up to £1,000 for employers take the view that the skills of their staff are 1,000 apprentices entering higher education every year. one of the best investments they can make. Our ambition We will take a more strategic approach to the skills is that, thanks in large part to the innovations in this we fund. That means prioritising strategic skills in key strategy, three-quarters of people should participate industries such as advanced manufacturing, low carbon, in higher education or complete an advanced digital technologies and biosciences, and in important apprenticeship or equivalent technician-level course growth sectors such as healthcare. Our decisions in the by the age of 30. next bidding round of the national skills academies This strategy empowers the further education system programme will reflect these core national priorities. above all to compete to meet the needs of businesses and learners. That will put further education where it The second of our decisions is to increase the belongs; right at the heart of the knowledge economy power of learners to drive up quality in the skills and at the heart of our recovery and our future training sector by giving them more choice over where prosperity. I commend the Statement to the House. and when they train and better information on how to exercise that choice. To give effect to that greater 3.50 pm choice, we will set up new skills accounts which will enable students to shop around for training, backed by Lord Hunt of Wirral: My Lords, I draw attention to good information on how well different courses and my interests as declared in the Register, in particular colleges can meet their needs. Critically, we are going to my role as non-executive chairman of McDonald’s to more than treble the number of public and private Education Company. I thank the First Secretary of institutions where accounts can be used to over 1,500, State, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation creating not only new options for learners, but also a and Skills and the President of the Council for his big incentive for providers to design courses that attract Statement on the Government’s intentions regarding students. skills, and for his clear recognition that investment in skills is a vital part of rebuilding this damaged economy The FE sector has made significant strides in improving and aiding recovery for our country. the quality of its provision over the last decade. Many Skills, of course, are also a means of addressing of our colleges are performing at world-class levels social inequalities; they can act as the magic bullet to and overall success rates have increased by over 40 per create improved social mobility. Only yesterday, in a cent in the last 10 years. We will build on this by remarkable speech honouring the memory of that fine providing progressively greater autonomy to colleges journalist, Hugo Young, David Cameron pointed out that demonstrate teaching excellence, but also by cutting that, funding to low priority and poorly provided courses. “while people with good skills are able to benefit and indeed those We will invest in the courses that employers judge are who can best capture the opportunities of globalisation see in line with their needs and requirements. rewards that are off the scale, those without are increasingly shut Finally, we have decided to simplify the organisational out of the global economy”. clutter of public bodies delivering skills policy. We Wehad been led to expect renewed ministerial commitment welcome the recommendation of the UK Commission to skills after a spokesman from the noble Lord’s for Employment and Skills to reduce the number of department, who spoke on Saturday night and was separate publicly funded agencies by over 30 and will reported in the Observer on Sunday, said that: work with them and others to make this happen. Our “The skills sector has received record investment in recent new model will make the regional development agencies years and we will shortly be publishing the skills strategy setting responsible for leading the regional skills strategy in out our long-term plans for investment in skills to contribute to each area, working in partnership with local authorities the future growth and success of the UK economy”. and others. After such a build-up, was that really it? In the DBERR paper New Industry, New Jobs, This skills strategy shares its fundamental challenge published in April this year, one senses the influence of with our recent higher education framework. They the First Secretary of State—he is fond of new titles, must equip our people to prosper in a globalised too—when he remarked that: knowledge economy. They must contribute to our “We have maintained investment in the UK’s infrastructure return to sustained and sustainable growth. The goal and public services, vital for families and for businesses. Underlying of this strategy is a skills system defined not simply by these decisions is a core judgment that despite the tough times, it targets based on achieved qualifications, but by “real is better to keep investing in growth and jobs so as to speed world” outcomes: relevant, quality skills with real recovery and build the manufacturing and services we need for market value. It will be driven by the realities of a the future”. changing global economy and by demand from the In the light of such reassuring words it might have British businesses and individuals who have to prosper seemed to the more trusting among us that we had in that economy. The clearer that demand is, the better little to fear and much cause for optimism. Yet, despite the system will work. these warm words promising investment and concentration 809 Skills for Growth[LORDS] Skills for Growth 810

[LORD HUNT OF WIRRAL] It does not help that this Statement is being rushed on skills, we were informed about some documents at out on the day before the House is prorogued at the weekend which appear to adumbrate a gaping the end of the Session, following hard on the heels of chasm between the Government’s rhetoric on skills the higher education funding review and framework. and their intentions on delivery. The Government have delayed their response to the Last Sunday, the Observer obtained papers which challenge set by the excellent Leitch review too long, showed that, rather than commitment to the skills and incalculable damage has resulted. In the three sector, the Government appear to be planning dramatic years that we have been waiting, we have seen the cuts, including cuts to front-line services. Skills, too, number of 18 to 24 year-olds not in education, are falling victim to the Government’s economic employment or training—the so-called NEETs—rise mismanagement. Apparently, preparations are currently to a record 835,000. We have seen unemployment being made for some £340 million of what are figures soar across the board. On this of all days, it is euphemistically termed “efficiency savings”in 2010-11. surely poignant but also appalling and unacceptable The First Secretary of State owes us an explanation. that we should contemplate now the possibility of These cuts are planned for services on which the another lost generation of young people. Government had specifically said they intended to Some of these recommendations are welcome. As I focus. Exactly what are the noble Lord and his ministerial say, they are ones that we recommended. Others should team planning? be subject to serious examination and scrutiny, but overall they are too little and too late. We see, for example, investment for apprentices over 25 may well be cut by 10 per cent, in an area in Finally, does the noble Lord acknowledge that the which the Government have specifically promised to very real figure that has been published today is the concentrate investment. We also learn that the number one relating to the number of young people out of of career development loans will be halved and that work? Despite the sort of commitments being laid out £25 million may well be cut out of the new Adult here today as an attempt to deflect attention from Advancement and Careers Service. These areas are those figures, and the all-too-real impending cuts to vital for adults wanting to re-skill or develop skills in the skills sector, it will take more than smoke and order to maintain employment in a difficult economic mirrors to build a world-class high value-added skill-based climate. Something does not quite tally. It appears that economy here in the UK. I hope that the noble Lord this country is in danger of believing in reassuring understands why this Statement leaves me full of promises which are not backed up by real commitment misgivings. and investment. We are told, and it has just been repeated, that the Government have recognised their 3.58 pm commitment to skills, but the facts do not back it up. Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, from these At a time when help to skill and to re-skill is needed Benches I also welcome the Statement and I thank the most urgently, this is disappointing, damaging and Minister for giving it to us. We share with the Minister inadequate. Of course, we welcome some of the proposals the view that the role and importance of vocational announced today.In particular, we welcome any measures skills have been consistently underplayed in this country that will improve flexibility in training and bring greater and that more needs to be done to persuade young focus on individuals and their specific needs. As the people—and older people—of the value of such training, First Secretary of State is no doubt aware, proposals particularly the value of progression within vocational moving in a very similar direction were set out in the training. We are delighted to see the emphasis on the Conservative Party’s excellent, Get Britain Working.I higher-level technician, from foundation to degree level, would offer to send the Secretary of State a copy of emphasised in the Statement. As a member of the this report but, as he has included several of the Skills Commission, which published earlier this year proposals in his Statement, it would appear that he is its inquiry into progression from apprenticeships, I already aware of it. fully endorse and appreciate that. It is vital that these young people are given aspirations to higher levels of I am delighted to see in his place the noble Lord, training. Lord Leitch, who published an excellent report in December 2006. However, we have been waiting three We also welcome the creation of the 35,000 new years for a clear plan of action in response to that apprenticeship places for 19 to 25 year-olds, particularly excellent report. I am not sure what today’s Statement for the advanced apprenticeships to level 3 and, I adds to the document entitled World Class Skills, hope, level 4. We support the creation of university which was published in July 2007 by the then Department technical schools that the Government have begun to for Innovation, Universities and Skills and which was back through the academy programme, which mirror notoriously high on aspiration but low on detail. We the German technical high schools. That is an area we have just had official figures from DBIS; statistical need to explore further and we shall look with interest first release shows that in the fourth quarter of the at how those schools progress. In particular, we academic year 2008-09, the number of young people enthusiastically endorse the re-emergence of individual starting new apprenticeships was 36 per cent lower skills accounts although we have some questions that I than at the same time last year. Between October 2008 will put to the Minister about those. and October 2009, the number of new apprentices has I have a number of questions about the Statement. fallen by 20,000. I hope that the First Secretary of In the first place, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt State will acknowledge that those statistics demonstrate mentioned, it comes at the same time as rumours of a a very worrying trend. substantial cut in skills funding. The rumour is of a 811 Skills for Growth[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Skills for Growth 812 cut of £340 million in the skills budget, of which Finally, the Minister talks in paragraph 20 about £100 million would be cuts in various quangos, including the FE sector providing world-class skills. Will he such bodies as the Learning and Skills Improvement congratulate the team who went to WorldSkills at Service. Some £250 million will come from the skills Calgary this year and came back with eight gold budget itself. Will the Minister tell us a little more medals, seven silver medals and five bronze medals? about those cuts? In the Statement he said: WorldSkills is scheduled to take place in the UK in “We will not abandon our promise of basic skills for all”, 2011, when we will hope to match our success at the Olympics the following year. but are the Government cutting the basic skills programme for numeracy and literacy? Lord Mandelson: My Lords, I straight away join the What about the ring-fenced or safeguarded adult noble Baroness in congratulating the team at Calgary—she learning budget of £210 million? There are rumours is right to draw attention to their success. I thank her in that that will be cut yet it is an essential part of the particular for the welcome that she has given to the broader provision of adult education services in this new skills strategy and the way in which she at least has country. It is the remnant of what was a much larger addressed the proposals contained in the strategy, rather programme at one point and it has been under threat than offering what I hope the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for a long time. His right honourable friend in the does not mind me saying was a broad-brush, rhetorical other place, Mr Denham, earlier this year granted a dismissal of what the Government are announcing reprieve and regarded it as a safeguarded budget, but today. I hope that it was not because I failed to give what has happened to that budget? him the Statement sufficiently in advance for him to Am I right in thinking that, as far as the department read it. If that is the case, I will remonstrate with my is concerned, there is a switch of this money from private office. further education to higher education? The projection I also say to the noble Baroness that we have no of funding in the annual report 2008-09 for what was intention of reducing the fund that we are making DIUS indicated that, whereas the higher education available for training unemployed people and any other budget would actually increase by some £300 million, needy and vulnerable groups in society, including those the further education budget would be dropping from with learning difficulties and disabilities. We recognise £300 million. Is that what we are now seeing? Is that the important part that informal adult learning plays actually because the Government have overshot in in society and we will continue to support informal terms of projecting university numbers and underestimated adult learning opportunities for vulnerable, low-skilled numbers in vocational training? adults. The Minister talks about a dramatic reduction in The noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord, the number of public bodies in this area following the Hunt, should not, I am glad to say, get carried away by UKCES report. I was delighted to hear that, but we anything they read in the Sunday newspapers. The have just passed the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children savings target referred to in the rather hyped piece of and Learning Bill, which trebles the number of quangos virtual journalism was made clear by the Government in the apprenticeship area, so it seems odd that the in April at the time of the Budget, and in May in a Government are now talking about a reduction. I public letter from my predecessor, John Denham, to notice in the UKCES report that among those that the Learning and Skills Council. In implementing the were questioned were the RDAs. However, since the changes, there will be no reduction in apprenticeship Minister is reinforcing the RDAs I take it that they are numbers or provision for needy and vulnerable groups not going to be culled, so which bodies will be? It has in society. In fact, those are increasing. The noble been mentioned that there will be a concentration of Baroness and the noble Lord should not worry. We will the sector skills councils. Is it really sensible for there fund the commitments that we are announcing today to be an amalgamation just after those councils have by progressively refocusing money from lower priorities. been through a process of reaccreditation and where I say to the noble Baroness that I am responsible for the industry and employers are happy with the 19-plus provision. That is the context in which we are representation that they have? talking about sweeping away what I call the cluttered landscape of public bodies that are responsible for The Minister talked about a more strategic approach delivering our skills. The noble Baroness asked about to skills in particular areas such as advanced manufacturing, cultural and creative skills. In many respects these are low-carbon technologies, digital technologies and bioscience, quality, value-adding skills that are essential for many but I remind him that cultural and creative skills is the of the new jobs that are being created in growing fastest-growing area in this country. It now contributes sectors of our economy. Where these are linked to 11 per cent to GDP and its growth rate is 9 per cent. employers’ and businesses’ demand for skills, we would There are many jobs in this area that cannot be filled like to see the number of those courses increased. by universities such as Bournemouth University, which In respect of skills accounts, the information that has specialist programmes in this particular area. Is he the noble Baroness asked for is in the Statement. Our considering putting the emphasis on this area as well? desire is to see public money following individual It is excellent to hear that skills accounts are going choice and going to courses and institutions that are forward, but what form will they take? The Minister providing the very skills and training that are needed spoke of trebling the number of public and private and demanded by people. institutions that will accept credits. Which institutions I return to the questions of the noble Lord, Lord are these, what form will the accounts take and how Hunt. We are certainly not abandoning the ambition will they be credited? in the proposals set out by my noble friend Lord Leitch 813 Skills for Growth[LORDS] Skills for Growth 814

[LORD MANDELSON] The noble Lord and the late Lord Dearing have that we should be a world leader in skills through the championed university technical colleges. I am determined creation of a truly demand-led system and that we for the Government to do what they can to support should integrate employment and skills services. We their creation. They will offer new opportunities for 14 are on course to meet, or nearly meet, most of our to 19 year-olds to undertake vocational and applied interim targets for 2011, based on my noble friend’s study. That is important because, as the noble Lord report, but we are behind on higher level 3. We need to has argued, 14 is the age at which to capture young do better there if we are to sustain recovery and return people’s interest in continuing vocational education in to growth. This historic gap in intermediate skills has many cases and not 16 and beyond. It is also important led us to expand advanced apprenticeships as part of to ensure good progression, where it is desired, from creating a modern technician class. university technical colleges to other routes of study, Lastly, in response to the noble Lord, he played on including advanced apprenticeships and foundation today’s unemployment figures, particularly those relating degrees. to young people. Of course, any figures of that kind are disappointing and a cause for concern, but Lord Morris of Handsworth: My Lords, I join those unemployment among 16 to 24 year-olds has not hit who have welcomed the Statement. I speak with a the 1 million that many people predicted; it is broadly—I declared interest as chancellor of one of the universities repeat, broadly—unchanged. This is due not least to that has an active policy of seamless transfer from the guarantee offered by the Government to all 18 to technical colleges. Having spent most of my life in the 24 year-olds. The figures show a significant increase in manufacturing sector, I welcome the Statement’s the number of young people in full-time education, recognition that our training and skills must continue which indicates that the Government’s guarantee is to evolve to meet the challenges of the new industries; working. for example, the carbon technical sector, as we seek to As for the noble Lord’s commendation of Mr David ensure that our environment is protected. It is a new Cameron’s “remarkable” speech last night, the last sector that demands new skills and sets new challenges, time that we heard a Conservative Leader of the and we need the training to deliver it. Opposition pronouncing that government is the source It is important to ensure that our skills base as it of all our problems in our economy and society, and evolves is ready to deliver transferable skills, because that the way to cut poverty and unemployment in transferability is a key element in maintaining skills to Britain was to cut back government, poverty and meet tomorrow’s challenges. Will the Secretary of unemployment soared to record levels after Mrs Thatcher State and the department consider encouraging employers came into office. I do not think—once bitten, twice to have annual skills audits so that we can keep abreast shy—that anyone will be wanting to follow the advice of the demands involved? and contents of Mr Cameron’s “remarkable” speech. What progress, if any, is being made to unblock the capital budgets of the technical colleges, which are 4.13 pm raring to move forward so that we can deliver on the Lord Baker of Dorking: My Lords, I was about to aspirations and needs of our economy and secure welcome what the Secretary of State said, apart from Britain’s competitiveness? the last few sentences. I welcome the Statement. I wish only that it could have been made five or six years ago. Lord Mandelson: I thank my noble friend for his If it had, today the Government would not have to encouragement and for what he said about the value announce an unemployment rate among young people of training and the need for investment in skills by of 19.8 per cent. In particular, I welcome the Government’s government and employers alike, especially transferable support for university technical colleges, which is the skills. That will be one of the key features of the new type of school that I and Ron Dearing, before he died, technician class of advanced apprentices that we are had been promoting. Technical and skills training seeking to promote. I take my noble friend’s point must start at the age of 14. That is the key element for about the need for capital expenditure. We are always turning us into a skills-based economy. These colleges seeking to unblock and increase this, even at times of are for 14 to 18 year-olds. constraint in public finance. It is right, as my noble Finally, the past 25 years has been a golden age for friend emphasised, for the Government to focus support further education, under both his Government—I on the areas of the economy that will provide future recognise what has been spent—and the previous growth and jobs. It is not about picking winners and Conservative Government. However, the handbrake is losers, but about developing the skills that we need for on in further education; many fine colleges, such as the economy to succeed. It is about equipping people Lewisham College, cannot expand. In the noble Lord’s with the skills that they need in the key, high-potential talks with the Chancellor—it is rumoured that the areas of the future so that, just as my noble friend Chancellor listens to him—can he ensure that in said, Britain remains competitive and the people the expenditure programme for the next two years the participating in that success are able to command the budgets and programmes for FE are not cut? sort of well paid jobs to which they aspire. Lord Mandelson: I am grateful to the noble Lord Lord Cotter: I thank the Secretary of State for for his remarks. I know that the Chancellor of the today’s Statement about skills. It is important to emphasise Exchequer is personally and strongly committed to this field and I very much agree with what has been skills training and the FE sector. I am absolutely sure put forward. Will he consider one area which is of that he will do everything he can to protect these concern—that is, careers advice? It should be ensured sectors. that careers advice is top-rate in both schools and 815 Skills for Growth[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Skills for Growth 816 jobcentres. Perhaps the Minister will look into this. I needs—and certainly in our response to those young give just one instance. Last week community groups people who, through no fault of their own, have came to the Palace of Westminster to talk about their become unemployed—there is no “one size fits all” experiences. I know that it is unfair to pick one quote, solution. There has to be a mosaic—a plurality—of but it was representative of what a number of people opportunities, placements, work experience, training said. A male jobseeker who is on jobseeker’s allowance and educational opportunity, many of which are better said: delivered by non-statutory bodies, not least because “I don’t see the use of Job Centre Plus. They just look at jobs they reach out to, and recruit, young people from you’ve been applying for and that’s it, you’re done in 5 minutes. communities and parts of communities which government They’ve never given me advice about apprenticeships or stuff like and statutory organisations are less successful in operating. that. I want to do something with my life”. She is absolutely right about that. I know that attempts have been made to improve careers advice, but could the Secretary of State look Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I endorse the point again at this very important area, particularly in schools made by the noble Lord, Lord Cotter, on the crucial but also in jobcentres? If people have a bad experience importance of careers advice, to which the Secretary there, they get discouraged and do not feel that they of State responded very favourably. As I am sure he is can advance, either through skills or jobs. well aware, the new engineering diploma for 14 to 19 year-olds has got off to a very good start. However, it Lord Mandelson: The noble Lord is absolutely right is depressing to read the following in the Institution of to place this emphasis on careers advice. Two sorts of Engineering and Technology’s report on the diploma’s information, advice and guidance, are needed. The first year. The report states: first relates to the individual’s aptitudes, potential and “Careers education and guidance must improve in quality and ability to aspire to different sorts of vocational work quantity, in line with the increased … options available to students and careers. The other is the sort of information that following the introduction of Diplomas”. they expect to get about different courses, colleges and Of course, that is the responsibility of another the opportunities that are available to them. That, too, department—the DCSF. I hope that the Secretary of I am afraid, has been lacking in the past. By giving State will use his influence to see that this is done learners greater power to choose among courses, we because if students do not know what the options are, also expect to see the quality of those courses rise. We they will not end up with the right training, the right want individuals to become well-informed, active skills and, eventually, the right careers. consumers of what is available from the system, so as I wish to mention one other matter. I declare an to drive improvements in what providers offer. That is interest as the honorary president of the National why all colleges and learning providers should provide Skills Academy for Nuclear. The sector skills councils quality-assured data about performance at individual vary enormously in their competence and achievements. course as well as institutional level, so that people can I would not have accepted that post if I had not been not only receive careers advice, but make informed entirely satisfied that the NSAN comes right at the top choices about the courses of training or education that of the league. However, a lot of them do not. When they are able to follow. the Secretary of State talks about getting rid of some of the clutter, is he indicating that there will be a Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, in welcoming substantial rationalisation of the sector skills councils, this report, I ask the Secretary of State about those so that those which are not making progress and have who are now at the bottom of the group of young lost the confidence of employers will disappear and people who previously would have gained a great deal their functions will be taken over by those which can of help and expertise, but who are being lost because properly claim to be employer-led? Some of them have there is now above them another layer of young people told me very firmly, “Yes, publicly we say we are who are benefiting from many of the schemes. I mention employer-led, but in fact we are not; we are led by the in particular those in schemes run by the European Government”. That is not a successful recipe. Social Fund, for example, and schemes run by voluntary and other non-governmental organisations. I have not Lord Mandelson: I am grateful to the noble Lord, heard the Secretary of State mention non-governmental Lord Jenkin, for his comments, which I found very organisations at all in terms of giving employment educative. I will now train my sights rather more on help to these young people. This is the group that, the sector skills councils than perhaps I might have when numbers increase, is much more likely to fall to done otherwise. I do not know how substantial a the bottom of the pile. It is the group that will become rationalisation is justified or possible. It is very important criminals and fail in their families. Previously they for us to work with the UK Commission for Employment have benefited from these schemes. Is the Secretary of and Skills and employers on such a rationalisation. It State aware of this and will he take note of this group’s will receive both my energy and that of the relevant needs? Minister in my department. Lord Mandelson: I am grateful to the noble Baroness Baroness Wall of New Barnet: My Lords, I join for making that point; it was remiss of me not to make many other noble Lords in welcoming the Statement. I it myself. She is absolutely right. We value the important follow the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, role that voluntary third-sector organisations play in on sector skills councils. However, I share my noble the delivery of quality learning and skills. A whole friend’s disappointment at the broad-brush response host of organisations comes to mind. I cannot name from the Conservative Benches. That does not do them all. This is important; I agree with the noble justice to noble Lords who sit on those Benches and Baroness on this. In our response to young people’s who made many important contributions on the 817 Skills for Growth[LORDS] Policing and Crime Bill 818

[BARONESS WALL OF NEW BARNET] he said, particularly about the opportunities for those apprenticeships Bill. The comments of the noble Lord, with learning disabilities and others. However, a number Lord Hunt, were extremely disappointing given that of us in this House are concerned that at the end of he is part of that ongoing discussion. I welcome the the discussion on the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children view on the sector skills councils that is expressed in and Learning Bill last night that there was a danger the document. As the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, it that a lot of promises were being made which would reflects the fact that employer engagement to the level encourage young people to think that these opportunities that is required is not achieved by all the sector skills would be available, yet there was the possibility of the councils. The emphasis on sector skills councils working resources not being available. Was I correct in with the regional development agencies addresses both understanding the Minister to say that there would strands of employer engagement. Organisations that not be cuts in the programmes that were discussed are sectoral across the country need that sectoral during the apprenticeships Bill yesterday? approach, but they also need the regional development agency approach in addressing what is happening Lord Mandelson: I assure noble Lords that we will inside each region. Therefore, I share in welcoming the do all we possibly can to protect training programmes, report, which simply balances what we are already courses and places. The noble Lord can be assured doing. Despite the view that we are not doing very that that will have my absolute commitment and that much, we are now doing lots and lots with regard to of my colleagues. I am not hiding from him the fact the skills process. that we are entering a period in which we shall experience constraints in public spending, but that makes it all Lord Mandelson: I am grateful to my noble friend. the more necessary and important that we get the best Key to a more intelligent skills system is ensuring that value from what we are already doing. However, we providers deliver the skills prioritised by their employers must also carry out reforms in what we are doing to and learners. This system has to work in a way that raise the performance of these programmes. If we relates not just to sectors but to local and regional stand still and stop reforming, we will get less value for labour markets. That is why we have tasked the regional money and more people will be disappointed as a development agencies with producing regional skills result. strategies, working in partnership with local authorities, sector skills councils and other local partners such as Policing and Crime Bill local employers. I will have early discussions with the Third Reading RDAs and employer organisations to ensure that we see proper engagement with the sector skills councils 4.35 pm in order to reduce their variable performances and achievements. Amendment 1 Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope: Will the Secretary of Moved by Lord West of Spithead State take advantage of this Statement, which I welcome, 1: After Clause 49, insert the following new Clause— to confirm that there is a United Kingdom dimension “Review of operation of this Part to all this and that there will be proper consultations (1) The Secretary of State must— with the sister legislatures in other parts of the United (a) review the operation of this Part, and Kingdom about the deployment of the policy? As a (b) prepare and publish a report on the outcome of the non-executive director of the Wise Group in Glasgow, review. which is a service provider under the Flexible New (2) The report must be published before the end of the period Deal, I also ask him whether he agrees about the of 3 years beginning with the day on which this Part comes into importance of integrating skills with other departmental force. programmes, such as the Flexible New Deal, and (3) The Secretary of State must lay the report before Parliament.” collaborating with colleagues in education, the Treasury The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home and elsewhere? We need proper integration so that Office (Lord West of Spithead): My Lords, I am aware people who work on schemes such as the Flexible New that throughout our debates on the gang injunctions Deal can take advantage of some of the important concerns have remained that these innovative provisions announcements that he has made this afternoon. could be used against groups that the Government do Lord Mandelson: The noble Lord is absolutely right. not intend them to be used against. As I stated in my We obviously have to talk to our colleagues and explanatory letter, I believe that scope for misuse is co-ordinate everything that we do so that we can tie in extremely small. However, I agree that it would be the experience of governing authorities in Scotland, sensible to review the use of the provisions to consider Wales and Northern Ireland, and I assure him that we the overall implementation and impact of these new will do that. We have to ensure that in no part of the powers. United Kingdom are people any worse off due to a On Report, I committed to returning to the House patchy framework of provision. We want to see all with an amendment to the effect of a statutory review. providers, even the good ones, rising to the standards This is set out in Amendment 1, which inserts a new of the very best, and that is what we will seek to clause at the end of Part 4 introducing a requirement encourage. for the Secretary of State to review the operation of the provisions. A report detailing the findings of this Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I did not have the review must then be published within three years of advantage of seeing the Statement before hearing it commencement and laid before both Houses of from the Minister, but I thank him very much for what Parliament. 819 Policing and Crime Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Policing and Crime Bill 820

When the report is laid before Parliament, it will The amendments respond to concerns raised by present noble Lords and honourable Members from several noble Lords on Report about the optional the other place with a clear opportunity to review the nature of the lap-dancing provisions in the Bill. We evidence from the implementation of the provisions considered whether these concerns could be addressed and make such representations to the Government as in guidance but, having listened to noble Lords saying they think appropriate. I am minded that three years that such guidance could simply be ignored by local will be required properly to review the provisions on authorities, we resolved to ensure that a statutory duty account of the injunctions being time-limited to two was placed in the Bill. Therefore, these amendments years. As the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, noted will ensure that local authorities that have not adopted on Report, it is important to allow for the possibility the provisions within one year of commencement that a number of these maximum-length injunctions must consult local people to give them the opportunity may be granted and we should include these within the to express their views on whether the provisions should scope of the review. I hope that this amendment be adopted. They further empower local communities addresses noble Lords’ concerns and I commend it to with regard to the regulation of lap-dancing clubs in the House. their area and mitigate the concern that there could be a mismatch between the local authority and local Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I people’s views on the licensing of lap-dancing clubs. am most grateful to the Government for bringing this The Government have listened carefully and responded amendment forward and to the Minister for taking to concerns raised here and in the other place on this this issue so seriously. He is correct that we were clause. I firmly believe that, with this amendment, worried about such big powers being given without Clause 27 now strikes the right balance and will ensure any sort of review required in the Bill. The amendment that local communities are appropriately empowered goes quite a long way towards meeting our concerns. to have a say in the opening and ongoing licensing of His helpful letter said that the review must be laid lap-dancing clubs in their area. I commend the amendment before Parliament. No doubt Parliament will debate it to the House. to see whether any further action is necessary. This is most helpful and I am very grateful. Baroness Harris of Richmond: My Lords, I have not previously spoken on this part of the Bill, but I was minded to when I received a briefing this morning Lord Skelmersdale: My Lords, it would be churlish from the Local Government Association. It is extremely of me not to thank the Minister for this amendment, concerned about this amendment, which it feels will even though I have a concern about it. I note that the force local authorities to undertake a burdensome Minister used the words “both Houses of Parliament” consultation if they decide not to use powers available when speaking to the amendment, whereas the to them. amendment refers only to Parliament, which could in The association is concerned that the new duties certain circumstances mean one House or the other. were not consulted on. It feels that the amendment is Even at this late stage in the parliamentary Session, it in direct contradiction to the principles already enshrined is not beyond the wit of the Government to replace in the Bill, stating that councils have the power to the word “Parliament” in this amendment with “both adopt the new licensing regime where it is locally Houses of Parliament”. I hope that the Minister will appropriate. It feels that this goes directly against the take that into consideration. principle of closer working between central and local government. Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I do not know Councils have been at the forefront of campaigning whether that can be done off my own bat but I will for the introduction of the new licensing powers and certainly take it into consideration. I cannot see why it they will not neglect the chance to take them up should not be done but no doubt some of the legal locally when they are needed. I would be most grateful beavers might stop me. I will see what I can do. for the noble Lord’s comments on the association’s views. Amendment 1 agreed. Lord Skelmersdale: MyLords,itisalwaysaproblem Schedule 3 : Lap dancing and other sexual when the Government drip-feed amendments through entertainment venues etc: transitional provision. the last stages of a Bill. I rather hope that I have understood what this composite group of amendments, tabled today and on Report, means. I understand that, Amendment 2 on Royal Assent, local authorities will be able to choose whether to implement the new regime. If a Moved by Lord West of Spithead local authority implements the new regime, the people 2: Schedule 3, page 153, line 29, leave out from “Act”to “, of” living in its area will immediately be able to take in line 30 and insert “or paragraph 2(2) above”. advantage of the new provisions for taking their concerns into account. That is right and proper. Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, Amendments 2, If the local authority considers that the new regime 3 and 4 amend Schedule 3 and place a duty on those is not necessary in its area, it must, under today’s local authorities that have not resolved to adopt the amendments, still hold a consultation within a year on lap-dancing provisions introduced by Clause 27 within whether the community that it represents agrees. If the one year of commencement to consult local people on consultation shows that local residents have concerns whether to make such a resolution. about lap-dancing venues, the local authority should 821 Policing and Crime Bill[LORDS] Policing and Crime Bill 822

[LORD SKELMERSDALE] the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, this is not an implement the new regime giving those people the imposition. Authorities have structures in place; it is a opportunity to have those concerns addressed. If one-off consultation. I believe that it strikes a sensible the consultation shows that local residents are, on the balance. other hand, relaxed about lap-dancing clubs, the current I do not think that the LGA statement today helps licensing system will continue, but the new regime to move things on. I take the point about consultation. could still be introduced at any point in the future. We have tried to consult and I will raise with some of That is the important point. my people what the difficulties have been. However, As the new regime includes an annual review of that has not just been from our side, as it were; it has existing clubs, as well as strict controls on new clubs, come from both directions and we need to resolve any delay in the implementation of the new regime that. It is unfortunate to have a statement coming out will not prevent objections or concerns from being today that shows perhaps a lack of discussion, but I raised against existing or new venues. Similarly, as the do not believe that the LGA’s concerns are real. This is noble Baroness, Lady Harris, knows far better than a sensible way forward. I thank the noble Lord, Lord me, local authorities already have several avenues by Brooke, for his input and commend the amendment. which residents can make suggestions and complaints. So even if someone were to miss a consultation, they Amendment 2 agreed. could still make their feelings known, whether they are for or against the new regime. Amendments 3 and 4 I, too, received the briefing this morning from the Local Government Association. I ask only that this Moved by Lord West of Spithead should not be yet another imposition on local authorities 3: Schedule 3, page 153, line 40, at end insert— without their being given some sort of monetary “Duty to consult about adopting Schedule 3 of the 1982 Act as recompense for carrying it out. amended 3A (1) Sub-paragraph (2) applies if a local authority has not 4.45 pm made a resolution under section 2 of the 1982 Act or (as the case Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: My Lords, I may be) paragraph 2(2) above within the period of one year spoke briefly on the amendment moved by the noble beginning with the coming into force of section 27. Baroness, Lady Gould, at Report, to which the noble (2) The local authority must, as soon as reasonably practicable, Lord, Lord Brett, replied, when he indicated that he consult local people about whether the local authority should might well follow the line now being taken by the make such a resolution. Government. I share the views expressed by the noble (3) In sub-paragraph (2) “local people” means persons who Baroness, Lady Harris, about local government, if live or work in the area of the local authority.” possible, being allowed to decide what it wants to do, 4: Schedule 3, page 154, line 7, at end insert— rather than having something imposed on it. I recall “; and references in this Schedule to the coming into force of section 27 are references to the coming into force of that section the Licensing Bill, now the Licensing Act 2003. Those for purposes other than the purposes of the Secretary of State or of us who were familiar with the problems in central the Welsh Ministers making orders.” London were disappointed because it took so long for the disadvantages of the Act to become known throughout Amendments 3 and 4 agreed. the country. It is a sensible fail-safe device to have the opportunity for consultation later to prevent communities from suddenly, through sheer ignorance, finding lap Motion dancing imposed on them. I therefore congratulate the Moved by Lord West of Spithead Government on the compromise solution that they have reached. That the Bill do now pass. Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, of course, I, too, Lord West of Spithead: My Lords, I would like to read the LGA document issued today. Part of the say a few words of thanks to all those who have taken problem, reading between the lines, is that it cannot part in today’s short debate, but also in the preceding decide whether it wants something mandatory or not. days. Throughout, our debates have been knowledgeable, Perhaps that is a false judgment, so I shall not pursue forceful, often passionate but also genuine and constructive. it. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, for his They have been held in a particularly good spirit, even support, because we have had a negotiated balance in when we have crept up towards midnight on occasion. this House to arrive at the provision. What is clear is The Bill leaves the House in a much better state—that that, if authorities adopt the provisions, they will not is something that this House does. need to consult. It is important that local people, I thank my noble friends Lord Brett and Lord rather than just local authorities, are consulted on Faulkner, and my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland, whether to adopt provisions. for all their help. They have borne the full force of Is it a new burden? As has been said, there are your Lordships’ inquiry on the Bill and I am extremely already duties on local authorities to consult local grateful for their support. I also thank the noble people on an ongoing basis on a wide range of issues. Baronesses, Lady Miller and Lady Neville-Jones—and, We are fairly confident that the duty can be absorbed before, the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham—as well as into the existing processes without imposing any particular the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, who joined us new burdens. It is a one-off duty to consult and would during Committee after the summer, the noble Viscount, not apply if the local authorities had already adopted Lord Bridgeman, and the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, the provision. So it is not overly onerous. In answer to for the role that they have played in sharpening up the 823 Policing and Crime Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 824

Bill, which is much improved. I do not want to detain I should add that my right honourable friend the your Lordships any longer than necessary, but I extend Home Secretary has asked the intercept as evidence my thanks to all noble Lords who have taken part. team—that is the team that is hoping to implement Finally, I am sure that all of your Lordships will Chilcot—and the advisory group of privy counsellors, join me in thanking the members of the Bill team, who which includes my noble and learned friend Lord have been particularly focused and have tried to be Archer of Sandwell, the right honourable Michael helpful across the House, and those others who were Howard MP and the right honourable Alan Beith MP, behind the scenes, including opposition researchers, to look at the issue of coroners’ inquests in the light of who have all helped in the smooth passage of the Bill. their emerging findings. I hope that may provide some comfort to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, and the Bill passed and returned to the Commons with amendments. supporters of her amendments. Turning to the proposed amendment in lieu, it Coroners and Justice Bill would further amend paragraph 3 of Schedule 1, Commons Reasons and Amendments which deals with the suspension of a coroner’s investigation 4.50 pm pending the outcome of an inquiry under the Inquiries Act. On Report, the House agreed amendments, the effect of which is that the duty on a coroner to Motion A suspend an investigation pending the outcome of an Moved by Lord Bach inquiry would bite only if the inquiry is chaired by a That this House do not insist on its Amendments senior judge. Where a coroner’s investigation is so 1, 2 and 216 to which the Commons have disagreed, suspended, the terms of reference of the inquiry must, but do propose Amendment 1B in lieu— as an irreducible minimum, include the matters to be 1B: Page 115, line 29, leave out sub-paragraph (1) and insert- determined by a coroner at an inquest. We find those “(1) “Subject to sub-paragraph (2), a senior coroner must matters set out in Clause 5. This amendment would suspend an investigation under this Part of this Act into a add another crucial condition; namely, that the Lord person’s death if- Chief Justice has approved the appointment of the (a) the Lord Chancellor requests the coroner to do so on the senior judge who is to chair the inquiry. ground that the cause of death is likely to be adequately In another place, the shadow Secretary of State for investigated by an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005 (c. 12) that is being or is to be held, Justice pressed the Government to provide for more judicial control over this whole process. This amendment (b) a senior judge has been appointed under that Act as chairman of the inquiry, and does just that. The duty on a coroner to suspend an investigation pending the outcome of an inquiry would (c) the Lord Chief Justice has indicated approval to the Lord Chancellor, for the purposes of this paragraph, of come into play only if the inquiry was to be headed by the appointment of that judge. a High Court, or more senior, judge, and the Lord In paragraph (b) “senior judge” means a judge of the High Chief Justice had approved the appointment for the Court or the Court of Appeal or a Justice of the Supreme Court.” purposes of paragraph 3. Noble Lords who were present at the time will remember that this is just the sort of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry judicial lock which Lord Kingsland asked the Government of Justice (Lord Bach): My Lords, I beg to move that to put into effect many months ago. Let me be clear this House do not insist on its Amendments 1, 2 and about what this means. The Lord Chief Justice is 216 to which the Commons have disagreed and do being asked in practice to approve the displacement of agree Amendment 1B in lieu. The House will be aware a coroner’s investigation by an inquiry. If he does not that on Monday the other place accepted the give his approval, no inquiry will be established. Government’s Motion to disagree with these Lords It may assist the House if I explain how we envisage amendments without a Division. In making the case the process operating. It is worth emphasising that the for Motion A, I can do no better than quote from point at which any question of establishing an inquiry what the shadow Secretary of State for Justice, Dominic arises is likely to be some way into a coroner’s investigation. Grieve, said in the other place, In cases in which Article 2 is engaged, there is likely to “there is an acknowledgement that to allow intercept evidence would be very difficult at this stage. My party is on the record on be an investigation by a statutory organisation such as countless occasions as wishing to see intercept evidence available the Independent Police Complaints Commission. The in criminal trials and at inquests … We subscribed to the Chilcot coroner would proceed with planning for the inquest process so that it could be reviewed, and the Chilcot process is not only once he or she was in receipt of the report from yet complete. Therefore I acknowledge that to ride a coach and the IPCC and any criminal proceedings had been horses through that would be unsatisfactory, even though it is an ruled out. At that point, the coroner would review end that I would wish to see, properly arrived at”.—[Official all the evidence with which he or she had been Report, Commons, 9/11/09; col. 60.] provided, which might include gists of intercept or My noble friends Lady Ramsay, Lord Robertson, other sensitive material, and would consider whether Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Foulkes made an Article 2-compliant inquest with a jury could be much the same point during our debate on 21 October, held. as did the right honourable Michael Howard, one of the members of the advisory group of privy counsellors, To assist this, the coroner would very likely hold a during the debate two days ago in another place. I pre-inquest hearing to get the views of all interested hope that, given this wise counsel from a number of persons. If the coroner’s conclusion was that the inquest eminent sources, the House will not insist on its could not go ahead because material that was central amendments. to the inquiry could not be disclosed, the organisation 825 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 826

[LORD BACH] 5pm from which the material originated would inform the appropriate Secretary of State. That Secretary of State would then inform the Lord Chancellor who, in Amendment to the Motion consultation with the Chief Coroner, would need to be satisfied that every effort had been made for the inquest Moved by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer to take place. Where the Lord Chancellor was satisfied that an Article 2-compliant inquest could not take A1: Leave out “Amendment 1B” and insert place, he would write to the Lord Chief Justice to seek “Amendments 1C and 1D”. his approval of the appointment of a senior judge to 1C: Page 115, line 28, leave out paragraph 3 chair the inquiry. 1D: Page 117, line 14, leave out paragraph 8 Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I The Lord Chancellor’s letter could outline the reasons beg to move Motion A1 as an amendment to Motion A, why the coroner’s investigation needs to be suspended to leave out Amendment 1B and insert Amendments 1C and why conducting the investigation into the death in and 1D. Our motion would have the effect of removing question by way of an inquiry set up under the Inquiries that part of Schedule 1 that empowers the Lord Chancellor Act 2005 is more appropriate. It could also request the to suspend an inquest. approval of the Lord Chief Justice of the appointment of a senior judge to chair that inquiry, and cite any We sent this Bill to the other place having inserted other matters that may be relevant. This could be into it the ability for intercept evidence, with precautions followed up if necessary by a meeting between the as regards national security, to be made available to an Lord Chancellor, the Secretary of State and the Lord inquest when needed. Last Monday the other place Chief Justice to discuss the matter. We would expect held an excellent debate which has given this House a the Lord Chief Justice to take into account what steps clear steer on the two deep concerns that are shared on had been taken to enable an inquest to proceed and to all sides: first, whether intercept evidence should be consider whether other steps could be taken. The Lord made available; and secondly, if such evidence is to Chief Justice may suggest that these are considered continue to be unavailable, whether the Government before he decides whether to agree to a judge being should have a power under the Inquiries Act to substitute appointed to chair the inquiry. an inquiry for an inquest. I shall address the first concern, the question of Thereafter, the Lord Chief Justice would consider whether intercept evidence should be admissible. The the request and, if he gave approval to the appointment honourable Dominic Grieve summed up the feelings of a senior judge, he could then suggest a particular of most MPs when he said, person to chair the inquiry. I should add that if it “that to allow intercept evidence would be very difficult at this is considered appropriate for a judge of the Supreme stage”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/11/09; col. 60.] Court to chair the inquiry, the Lord Chief Justice He was absolutely right to identify the anxiety we in would consult the president of the Supreme Court this House feel about the Government’s approach to before giving his approval. It would then fall to the these issues which was manifested in the vote we called Secretary of State establishing the inquiry formally to for on intercept evidence. I am grateful to the honourable appoint the nominated judge. At the same time, the Dominic Grieve for identifying so clearly the problem Lord Chancellor would request the coroner to suspend we had with it. I am also grateful to the honourable the investigation if the Lord Chancellor was satisfied Andrew Dismore for retabling in the other place the that the inquiry’s terms of reference established the amendment we brought forward at earlier stages. It is matters that an inquest would otherwise have established, the amendment we are now debating, and I believe as per Clause 5. that it allows us to consider the heart of the issue. Finally, the decision to establish the inquiry and the I thank the Minister for spelling out the detail of identity of the senior judge who will chair the inquiry how an inquiry would work and for giving us a number will be announced by way of a Written Ministerial of reasons why the Government feel that the route of Statement by the Secretary of State responsible for an inquiry is the right one to take. He has not mentioned establishing the inquiry. It would then be open to any today that unless we change the law, in the Government’s interested party to seek a judicial review of the decision opinion certain inquests cannot be held. However, on to establish the inquiry. Monday the honourable Frank Dobson was concerned and puzzled that in the de Menezes case, where some I am sorry to have gone on for so long, but these of the evidence was clearly related to national security, matters greatly concerned this House a few weeks ago, the existing law worked well. He went on to say that: and I hope that my explanation has gone some way to “We should bear in mind that we were told by Ministers that showing that we have taken on board the points that there was no chance of an inquest in the de Menezes case unless were raised. I hope in the light of this explanation that we change the law—but we did not change the law, there was an the House will be reassured that these measures provide inquest, and it was carried out quite satisfactorily”.—[Official an improved balance between the respective roles of Report, Commons, 9/11/09; col. 64.] the Executive and the judiciary in the very rare The question now before the House is whether it is circumstances in which these complex issues are likely reasonable in such sensitive cases to give the Government to arise. As I said, they deliver the judicial lock that the right to order an inquiry under the Inquiries Act the late Lord Kingsland sought all those months ago instead of holding an inquest. As I thought the Minister when he spoke at Second Reading. I commend the would in moving the government amendment, he prayed amendment to the House, and I beg to move. in aid the fact that at the Committee stage Lord Kingsland 827 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 828 tabled some probing amendments to see if the inquiries this stage. However, to be fair to my honourable route could be made more acceptable. But the Minister friend, I ought to complete the quotation. The Minister has forgotten how he concluded that he was uneasy quoted him as saying that our party is, about using the Inquiries Act for this purpose because “on the record on countless occasions as wishing to see intercept its procedures are initiated by an executive act of the evidence available in criminal trials and at inquests”. Secretary of State and the investigation flows from The Minister then stopped. However, it is worth quoting that act. By contrast, coroners are centuries-old, well the extra sentence that my honourable friend added, in established public figures who are independent of the which he made it quite clear: Executive. As a matter of principle, one would wish that all inquests were conducted through the coronial “That is desirable and it is a shift that needs to take place”.— system. [Official Report, Commons, 9/11/09; col. 60.] I appreciate the Lord Chancellor’s remark that the Having said that, we feel that we have taken the Government have been up hill and down dale on this matter as far as we can in this Bill. I have no doubt matter, and we sympathise with that because it is not that in future there will be further opportunities, in an easy issue. But the one case over which he and these both this House and another, to consider the benefits Benches have tussled is not a reason for blowing a hole of allowing intercept evidence to be heard in courts, through the entire inquest system. The honourable including coronial courts. However, it is not necessarily Bob Marshall-Andrews said in the other place: a matter that we need to discuss further at this stage. “The problem that this draconian measure seeks to remedy Moving on to what my honourable friend Mr Grieve either does not exist or is so infinitesimally small that it would be and my late noble friend Lord Kingsland referred to a grotesque misuse of the House’s power to hand to the Executive as the “judicial lock”—my late noble friend made such a very large extension to their powers”.—[Official Report, these points many months ago—the Minister has made Commons, 9/11/09; col. 69.] an effort to meet this with Amendment 1B, which we I know that the Lord Chancellor said, in effect, “Trust are asked to agree in Motion A. As the Minister me. There is no reason not to trust me”. However, if explained, the key addition is new paragraph (c), this provision was introduced on to the statute books, which provides that the Lord Chief Justice must indicate we would have to trust not only him but as yet untried his approval to the Lord Chancellor of the appointment and unknown Lord Chancellors. If a less trustworthy of a senior judge to chair an inquiry. In deciding one started to misuse the power, he would certainly whether to accept the amendment, we have to ask not take it away from himself. Further, the Lord ourselves whether that is enough. Chancellor said that it would be used only in exceptional circumstances, but the Government would judge what If one were marking an exam paper, one would circumstances were exceptional and they would have have to say that the noble Lord could have done the power to decide whether to substitute an inquiry slightly better, but we are grateful for what we have. for an inquest. We have asked for the route to be one of formal The Lord Chancellor said that he and the Home application and, in talks with the Lord Chancellor, the Secretary will bring forward a protocol to set out the Government have given us the impression that it is too circumstances in which such an inquiry would take late in the passage of the Bill to insert that the Lord place, but such a protocol could have been before us Chancellor must make an application to court for an for discussion months ago if it was considered useful. inquest to be suspended and an inquiry to be established. It could have been in the Bill if the Government had That route was proposed some time ago, and I cannot felt it was so valuable. see why the Government could not accept it. In fact, I wonder whether, if it was really something that they Once the concept that the Government can order found attractive, they could not even now do something an inquiry instead of an inquest has been established about it—but that possibly is too late. I leave that and has gained a statutory footing, we will have taken thought with the Minister. a big step down a road where the public will lose all trust that we have maintained adequate defences against I turn to the amendment that the Minister has state impunity. The Lord Chancellor has underestimated presented, on which I have a number of questions. the deep distrust and suspicion that is aroused when First, what precisely in the amendment that he proposes the Government try to circumvent the centuries-old, does “indicated approval” mean? Clearly, there is no trusted system of inquests, with its independent coroners formal application in the sense of having judicial and juries, which is essential for society. This House is procedure through the courts. Would the exchanges the guardian of long-term good over short-term between the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief expediency. I beg to move Motion A1. Justice be a matter for public record? I am encouraged by the apparent improvement in the language from Section 10 of the Inquiries Act 2005, which states that, Lord Henley: My Lords, I will in due course speak when a figure is appointed to an inquiry, the Minister to Motion A1. I start by addressing Motion A because, must merely consult the Lord Chief Justice. In the without doing so, I cannot address Motion A1. I current amendment, we must have his approval. That thank the Minister for his detailed explanation and for suggests to me that the Lord Chief Justice must agree the assurances that he gave the House. I wish to put a with the reasons given by the Minister for needing an few questions and seek a few further assurances, although inquiry. In asking the Minister to confirm that, can I he gave a number of them in his opening speech. ask him also to explain carefully the wording of the I am grateful to the Minister for quoting my honourable new paragraph? If the Lord Chief Justice does not friend in another place, particularly when he referred approve “that judge” whose name has been put to to the difficulty of introducing intercept evidence at him, what happens then? Is the Minister saying that 829 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 830

[LORD HENLEY] simply unlikely to command the same public confidence another judge will be nominated for approval? If the as a hearing before a jury, especially when the hearing Lord Chief Justice refuses to give his approval for any is determining the cause of death of someone who judge, because he felt that the case presented to him by died at the hands of state officials. The Minister the Lord Chancellor was not suitable to be heard at an rightly emphasised that we are dealing with a very inquiry, what would happen then? small category of cases, but they will inevitably be In the Commons, the Lord Chancellor said that, precisely those cases where public concern about the “it goes without saying that I have to ask the Lord Chief Justice death is at its most acute and where the exclusion of a from time to time to nominate a judge; if he or she were to decide jury will prevent the inquest from performing its basic that no judge were to be nominated that would be the end of the function of providing a process by which the bereaved matter”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/11/09; col. 57.] family and the public can be fully reassured that an I believe that that is an ambiguous statement. It is the investigation has identified the cause of death. end of what matter? Does it mean that the Lord It may well be, as the noble Lord, Lord Henley, Chancellor would stop asking for an inquiry, as he said, that we in this House have taken the matter as far would not have the approval of the Lord Chief Justice as we can. For my part, I ask the Minister to give for a judge to be nominated, and accept that he had assurances on two matters. First, will the judge who is not made his case, or does it mean that he would appointed under the inquiry have the power to appoint simply ignore the Lord Chief Justice and push through other independent persons who have security clearance an inquiry without an approved judge? I would welcome to sit with him or her in hearing this matter? Secondly, a clear statement on the record that, if the Lord Chief will the Minister assure the House that the report of Justice does not approve a judge to chair an inquiry, the inquiry produced by the judge will be published in there will not be an inquiry. all cases in full subject only to the exclusion of any I expect that the effect of the proposed mechanism security information as approved by the judge? is that the Minister, as I think he made clear in his opening statement, will be obliged to make a statement Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I was not intending explaining what is going on and, in the words of my to speak, but the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, spoke honourable friend in another place, explain to the about his hope that the Minister would give an assurance House why an inquest was impossible, answer the that if a judge sat in an inquiry he would have others hostile questioning of the House and allow Members to sit with him. I happened to sit on an inquiry of a of the House to express a view. We would expect totally different sort through 1987 and 1988, and I nothing less than that—a chance for Parliament to be gained the most enormous help from three very talented able to debate the matter. I think that the Minister was assessors. I have looked with some dismay and concern talking merely of a Written Statement, but I should be at a number of important inquiries where distinguished grateful for what he has to say. judges or other people have been asked to sit alone. There is a huge amount of advantage in what the The last question that I wished to put to the Minister noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said about having others was on seeking confirmation that a judicial review to assist the judge trying. They would not be the would be available. However, since he has made it decision-makers: they would be the advisers. In my quite clear that it will be available, that is an assurance case, they were called assessors. That would help a that I need not ask from the Minister. great deal and would mitigate the problem, referred to Having asked for those assurances, perhaps I may by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, about the absence of say that although it might be putting it too strongly to a jury meaning that it might not have the same degree say that we endorse Motion A—it is an imperfect of credibility. In those cases, the judge could be assisted situation—we will not oppose its passage at this stage. by those who would advise, but who certainly would The Government could have done better as they have not make the decision. been offered a great deal of advice. For us, to oppose it at this stage or to support it would not be the right way Lord Mackay of Clashfern: I support the points forward. made by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble I have some difficulty with the noble Baroness’s and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. It is not amendment moved in her Motion A1 because it would clear to me what exactly is supposed to happen if the remove the inquiry route altogether. However, as she Lord Chief Justice does not agree to appoint a judge. I has accepted that the intercept route has stalled for the assume that that is a necessary step in the setting up of moment—at least, I presume she has accepted that—to the inquiry. Therefore, if he declines to do so, there remove it would put us back at square one. Obviously, will not be one. I assume—I hope this is correct—that I have some sympathy with her objections, but we have the Government consulted the Lord Chief Justice to take the pragmatic approach at this stage, as so when they put forward this proposal, so that he knows often happens in this House, that half a loaf is better about it and is willing to undertake this extremely than no loaf at all. Therefore, we on these Benches will important judgment at the stage when it is supposed neither support nor oppose Motion A, but nor will we to be made. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said, be able to support Motion A1. that is an important matter. Lord Bach: My Lords, I am very grateful to all 5.15 pm noble Lords who have spoken, particularly to the Lord Pannick: My Lords, this is a much more noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for moving her amendment. difficult issue than the Minister suggests. An inquiry The amendments seek to strike out paragraphs 3 and before a judge, however eminent he or she may be, is 8 of Schedule 1, thereby removing the duty on a 831 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 832 coroner to suspend an investigation following a request asked to approve the displacement of a coroner’s to do so from the Lord Chancellor in circumstances investigation by an inquiry in the most rare of where an inquiry has been established into the circumstances. I hope that my next sentence will answer circumstances of the same death. It remains our view some points asked by other noble Lords. If the Lord that it is entirely appropriate that when an inquiry is Chief Justice does not give his approval to the suspension established into the circumstances of a death, the of the coroner’s investigation, no inquiry will be coroner’s investigation should be suspended and resumed established. I could not be clearer than that. only if the coroner considers that there are sufficient The noble Lord, Lord Henley, asked whether the grounds to do so. To do otherwise would, in our view, exchanges between the Lord Chancellor and the Lord be a waste of public money as both sets of proceedings Chief Justice would be made public. I do not think would in essence be considering the same issues. It that he will be surprised by my answer, which is that could lead to confusion and inconsistency as well as they will not. They will be summarised in the Written possibly causing added intrusion into the private grief Ministerial Statement that the appropriate Secretary of the family for no discernable benefit. Those problems of State will be required to make when announcing an would be amplified only if the two separate investigations inquiry. There could be an oral Statement if there were came to different conclusions, particularly if they heard major public concerns about the death that was the different evidence from different witnesses. The added subject of the inquiry. We know that noble Lords and grief that this would cause to the bereaved family for honourable Members in another place are quite able no good reason is surely not something that we should to ask Questions and get Statements if they so require. want. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, asked whether the Moreover, in those exceptional cases where an inquiry judge who is to chair any inquiry will have powers to had been established in order to protect highly sensitive appoint other panel members. I do not wish to appear information, such as intercept material, from public disrespectful—the noble Lord will know Section 4 of disclosure, it could well be the case that any coroner’s the Inquiries Act 2005 much better than I do. When an investigation that proceeded in parallel with an inquiry inquiry panel is appointed: would not have access to the full facts and would not “Each member … is to be appointed by the Minister by an therefore be Article 2 compliant. It is questionable instrument in writing … The instrument appointing the chairman whether any coroner would want to proceed with an must state that the inquiry is to be held under this Act … Before investigation in those circumstances. We consider that appointing a member to the inquiry panel (otherwise than as a coroner’s investigation should be suspended pending chairman) the Minister must consult the person he has appointed, the outcome of an inquiry and it should be a matter or proposes to appoint, as chairman”. for the coroner to decide if there is sufficient reason to The senior judge would be consulted before that resume the investigation at the conclusion of the inquiry. appointment was made. The noble Lord’s second question, which was also Given the concerns expressed by noble Lords about asked by other noble Lords, was whether the report of delays in complex cases, if not in inquests generally, an inquiry would be published in full, subject to the we would have thought that that in itself was sufficient exclusion of security information as approved by the reason not to have two similar types of investigation judge. The answer is that it will—only security matters into the same case. For any Members of your Lordships’ will not be disclosed. This will be a matter of agreement House who may be tempted to vote for Amendments 1C between the Minister and the inquiry chairman. I and 1D, perhaps I may remind them that the effect of hope that that goes some way to satisfying noble these amendments would be, as the noble Lord, Lords who are interested in these matters. Lord Henley, pointed out, to strike out the judicial lock in the process of establishing an inquiry, which I have said what I want to say. In due course I will I described earlier. If Amendments 1C and 1D were move my amendment. carried it would still be open to a Minister to establish an inquiry to investigate the circumstances of Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, has the Lord a death, but the important safeguard in government Chief Justice been consulted on the terms of the Amendment 1B would not be there because that part amendment, and has he accepted the responsibility of the Bill would be omitted. So I invite the noble that it would impose upon him if it is passed? Baroness to withdraw her amendment. If she does not, I invite the House to vote against it. Lord Bach: My Lords, I must be very careful what I I will respond to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, say about conversations that have taken place. The and to those who spoke and agreed with him on the Lord Chancellor and the Lord Chief Justice spoke on questions that he asked, and will also answer the the matter this morning, and I have no reason to think questions of the noble Lord, Lord Henley, who asked that anything that I have said would be disapproved of what was meant by “indicating approval” and whether by either party. it would be on the public record. I will come to that in a moment. 5.30 pm The noble Lord mentioned a judge. Amendment 1B(b) Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, refers to “a senior judge” who has been appointed that last reply is surprising if this has been in the under the Inquiries Act as chairman of the inquiry. Government’s mind for some time and has been consulted The Lord Chancellor cannot simply go through a list on only this morning. I am grateful to the noble and of judges until the Lord Chief Justice is content to learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, for raising approve one of them. The Lord Chief Justice is being the issue. 833 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 834

[BARONESS MILLER OF CHILTHORNE DOMER] NOT CONTENTS This debate dwelt on process, rather than principle. Aberdare, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. I can understand why that is the case, because if the Adams of Craigielea, B. Howarth of Breckland, B. Government win the day on this, process will be Adonis, L. Howarth of Newport, L. important. The experiences of the noble and learned Ahmed, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Andrews, B. Howells of St. Davids, B. Pannick, are important. They asked extremely pertinent Archer of Sandwell, L. Howie of Troon, L. Bach, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. questions. Bassam of Brighton, L. Irvine of Lairg, L. I return for a moment to what the Minister said. He [Teller] Janner of Braunstone, L. talked about whether it would be helpful for a bereaved Best, L. Jay of Paddington, B. family in their private grief to go through more than Bew, L. Jones, L. one process. What matters to a bereaved family listening Bilimoria, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. to an inquest is that they know the truth and that Billingham, B. Kilclooney, L. Bilston, L. King of West Bromwich, L. lessons are learnt for society. I know this from personal Birt, L. Kingsmill, B. experience and because I have talked to bereaved Blackstone, B. Kinnock, L. families. When the inquiry process happens, however Boothroyd, B. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. good the judge is, if there is loss of confidence by that Borrie, L. Kirkhill, L. family and by society, the Government will have taken Bradley, L. Lea of Crondall, L. a historically regrettable step. I recognise that we will Bramall, L. Levy, L. Brett, L. Lewis of Newnham, L. not get much further with this argument today, so I Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Lipsey, L. ask the House to agree to my amendment. Brookman, L. Listowel, E. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Low of Dalston, L. 5.31 pm Browne of Belmont, L. McDonagh, B. Butler-Sloss, B. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Cameron of Lochbroom, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Division on Motion A1 Campbell of Surbiton, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Campbell-Savours, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Contents 70; Not-Contents 175. Chester, Bp. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Chorley, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Christopher, L. L. Motion A1 disagreed. Clark of Windermere, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Division No. 1 Clinton-Davis, L. Mallalieu, B. Cobbold, L. Martin of Springburn, L. CONTENTS Colville of Culross, V. Massey of Darwen, B. Crawley, B. Maxton, L. Addington, L. Methuen, L. Crisp, L. Meacher, B. Allenby of Megiddo, V. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Cunningham of Felling, L. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Alton of Liverpool, L. B. Davidson of Glen Clova, L. Moonie, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Neuberger, B. Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] Morgan, L. Hamdon, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Desai, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Barker, B. B. Drayson, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Northover, B. D’Souza, B. Morris of Handsworth, L. B. Onslow, E. Dubs, L. Morrow, L. Bradshaw, L. Ramsbotham, L. Elder, L. Murphy, B. Broers, L. Razzall, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Myners, L. Burnett, L. Redesdale, L. Evans of Parkside, L. O’Loan, B. Clement-Jones, L. Rennard, L. Evans of Watford, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Cotter, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Falkender, B. Ouseley, L. Craig of Radley, L. [Teller] Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Paisley of St George’s, B. Craigavon, V. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Palmer, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Dear, L. Filkin, L. Pannick, L. Rogan, L. Dholakia, L. Gale, B. Parekh, L. Dykes, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Park of Monmouth, B. Erroll, E. Scott of Needham Market, B. Golding, B. Patel, L. Falkland, V. Sharp of Guildford, B. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Paul, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Goudie, B. Pendry, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Stair, E. Gould of Potternewton, B. Pitkeathley, B. Greaves, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Grabiner, L. Plant of Highfield, L. Hamwee, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Grantchester, L. Puttnam, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Greengross, B. Quin, B. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Taverne, L. Greenway, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Teverson, L. Grenfell, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. Laird, L. Thomas of Gresford, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Richard, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Grocott, L. Rooker, L. Lester of Herne Hill, L. Tonge, B. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Rosser, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Tope, L. Harries of Pentregarth, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Livsey of Talgarth, L. Tordoff, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Rowlands, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Tyler, L. Harrison, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. McNally, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. Hart of Chilton, L. St. John of Bletso, L. Maddock, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Haskel, L. Sawyer, L. Mar and Kellie, E. Walmsley, B. Haworth, L. Simon, V. Masham of Ilton, B. Watson of Richmond, L. Henig, B. Slim, V. May of Oxford, L. Williams of Crosby, B. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Snape, L. 835 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 836

Soley, L. Warnock, B. We are not alone in this view. No fewer than Stone of Blackheath, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. 55 organisations and individuals, including academics, Strabolgi, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. practitioners, members of the public and victims of Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. domestic abuse, have, since this House voted to remove Temple-Morris, L. West of Spithead, L. Thornton, B. the sexual infidelity exclusion from the Bill, taken the Whitty, L. Tombs, L. time to write to the Government asking for the provision Tomlinson, L. Wilkins, B. that was previously in the Bill to be reinstated. Among Williams of Elvel, L. Tunnicliffe, L. these are the Women’s National Commission, an umbrella Turner of Camden, B. Williamson of Horton, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Winchester, Bp. body representing more than 550 partner organisations, Walpole, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. many of which work directly with women who have Warner, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. experienced violence, Rape Crisis England and Wales, Amnesty International UK, the Centre for Action on Motion A agreed. Rape and Abuse, Justice for Women, Assist and many others. They all ask for the Government provision to be reinstated in the Bill. But it is the words of a 5.44 pm member of the public that I wish to draw to the House’s attention. The lady stated in her letter: Motion B “No-one condones infidelity; it is a terrible thing to do to someone. However, to suggest that the murder of the guilty party Moved by Lord Bach should be condoned is nothing short of barbaric. Usually it is That this House do not insist on its men who plead this excuse but the type of man who would kill his partner is generally so controlling that he will have a history of Amendment 55 to which the Commons have jealousy and violence, potentially driving the woman away from disagreed. him. To therefore suggest that she would be responsible for her own killing is as absurd as it is inhuman. It is not a plea that Lord Bach: My Lords, the Government remain should be permitted in a supposedly civilised society”. firmly of the view that the sexual infidelity exclusion It has been suggested that the issue should be left to in the new partial defence of loss of control, contained the jury to decide. However, those noble Lords who in Clause 45(6)(c), should remain part of that clause. advocate such an approach are implicitly arguing that The other place endorsed that view by a majority there are situations where a defendant should be able of 154. That is a significant majority against a Lords to successfully make out a partial defence based on amendment. I note and, indeed, greatly welcome the sexual infidelity, in and of itself, on the part of the fact that the Liberal Democrats abstained on that vote victim. We simply do not agree. As a matter of policy in another place. we believe that men and women who kill their partners On Report in this House, it was suggested that the because of unfaithfulness should be convicted of murder exclusion of sexual infidelity as a cause of loss of and we want this to be enshrined in statute. self-control was both illogical and undesirable. We beg It seems to the Government, based on the debates to differ. Far from being illogical, the Government’s in this House, that there is a range of views on whether position is based on recognition of the history of the sexual infidelity should ever constitute grounds for partial defence of provocation—a history that has led reducing murder to manslaughter. This serves only to to a commonly held belief that this is a defence that strengthen our view that, in order to put this matter can be exploited by men who kill their wives out of beyond any doubt, it is important to set it out in the sexual jealousy and revenge over infidelity. Bill. I urge the House not to insist on its amendment. I We have been clear through every stage of the Bill: beg to move. as a matter of policy we do not believe that in this day and age loss of control based on anger should normally Amendment to the Motion justify reducing murder to manslaughter. No one is disputing the fact that people lose their temper and Moved by Lord Thomas of Gresford kill; we are simply saying that that should not generally constitute grounds for a partial defence to murder. B1: As an amendment to Motion B, at end insert This is one of the reasons why we are abolishing the “, but do propose Amendment 55B in lieu— partial defence of provocation and replacing it with a 55B: Page 29, line 19, leave out paragraph (c) and insert— partial defence of loss of control, which, among other “(c) where D acted principally out of a desire to punish things, significantly narrows the circumstances in which V for any act, whether by V or by any other person, a defendant will be able to plead a partial defence which D perceived at the time to amount to sexual infidelity, or where D acted principally out of sexual when they kill in anger. jealousy or envy, the circumstances shall not constitute The Government have also been consistently clear “circumstances of an extremely grave character” for the that we do not believe that, in this day and age, sexual purposes of subsection (4)(a).”” infidelity on the part of the victim should ever, in and of itself, constitute grounds for making out a partial defence of loss of control. Of course, we do not Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, the noble dispute the fact that people lose their temper and kill Lord, Lord Bach, referred to the history of provocation. in response to sexual infidelity on the part of the It was a defence in common law that started to be victim, but we are arguing that this should never be a developed at the beginning of the 18th century as an reason to justify reducing a murder charge to manslaughter act of mercy by a jury who, having considered all the and we want to put that matter beyond doubt. circumstances, permitted a defendant who would 837 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 838

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] upon the alternatives, a unified offence of unlawful killing or otherwise have swung on the gallows for murder to be permitting the jury to return a verdict of murder with mitigating convicted of manslaughter. In 1957, when the death circumstances, allied with the abolition of the mandatory death penalty. They do exist, however, and the adoption of one or other penalty was still in place, provocation was defined in would simplify the law, removing the need for the extended statute in these terms: discussion of the minutiae of provocation and the differences of “Where on a charge of murder there is evidence on which the opinion among judges. The latter I genuinely regret, but as the law jury can find that the person charged was provoked (whether by stands I must join the dissent”. things done or by things said or by both together) to lose his Provocation is a mess. The Law Commission, led by self-control, the question whether the provocation was enough to make a reasonable man do as he did shall be left to be determined Professor Jeremy Horder, reported in November 2006. by the jury; and in determining that question the jury shall take In its report, Murder, Manslaughter and Infanticide, into account everything both done and said according to the following extensive consultation with a wide range of effect which, in their opinion, it would have on a reasonable bodies, the commission said that, man”. “partial defences remain misleading, out-of-date, unfit for purpose, Case law developed the concept that the reasonable or all of these”. man with whom the defendant is to be compared The Government have not followed its recommendations should be taken to be of the same age and sex as the for wholesale reform of the law relating to homicide defendant and should share any particular peculiarities into a three-tier system. By this Bill, they have simply from which he suffers—for example, his stature, colour, tinkered with the existing unsatisfactory law. They ethnicity and so on. seek to introduce changes to the existing partial defences Since the death penalty was replaced by the mandatory of diminished responsibility and provocation. They life sentence, the practical effect of the defence today have totally undermined the coherence of the Law is in sentencing. If a man or woman is found to have Commission’s proposals in a way that can only bring committed murder, the jury may reduce what would further chaos and difficulty in this field. otherwise be a verdict of murder to manslaughter by The Law Commission never considered, let alone reason of provocation. That makes it possible for the recommended in its report, that the jury should be judge to sentence the defendant in his discretion to barred, on a defence of provocation, from considering anything from life imprisonment to an absolute discharge. any circumstances arising on the facts of the case, but Indeed, I once prosecuted in a case where a woman Ministers floated the entirely novel idea of excluding who had killed her husband by driving a hammer sexual infidelity as an ingredient of provocation. In a through his head when he was asleep received an memorandum submitted at the Committee stage of absolute discharge by reason of the way in which she this Bill in the Commons, Professor Horder, the law had been treated by her husband shortly before she commissioner, who was appointed to look at the whole killed him 25 years before the body was found. However, law of murder, commented on this sexual fidelity life imprisonment is not an unusual or uncommon clause. The memorandum states: sentence. “One of the difficulties about being ‘absolutist’ in this area is Provocation raises many difficulties. In one appeal that one prevents the jury hearing rare, meritorious cases ... Can from Hong Kong, I represented a defendant who the jury not be left to filter out unmeritorious cases by deciding killed a young woman who had taunted him. The for itself in a loss of self-control case simply whether 42(4) and defendant had suffered brain damage as a child and 41(1)(c) are satisfied?”. therefore the question arose whether he should be That is the provision that we took out on Report. The compared for what he did with a reasonable man in memorandum continues: full possession of his faculties or with a person who “Even if that 42(6)(c) is left in, on the face of it, the wording is, had suffered brain damage. The Privy Council held with respect, bizarre. In what circumstances can a thing ‘said’ in that that comparison should not be made but the itself ‘constitute’ sexual infidelity, and is that what is really being Court of Appeal in England and Wales, which normally aimed at?”. follows the Privy Council, disagreed and refused to Professor Horder continued: follow that decision. “I am sure that I will not be the only person to remark that the Therefore, the law, which was always unsatisfactory, focus on sexual ‘infidelity’is curious; even, paradoxically, old-fashioned. became even more so, to the point that in 2005 the Does it cover unmarried relationships where there is no duty, in law, of fidelity? More seriously, is what is really being got at here Law Lords sat, unusually, in a panel of nine in the sexual jealousy and envy, not ‘infidelity’? If so, why not say so?”. Privy Council on an appeal from Jersey in the case of Holley. They attempted to bring some rationality into That was the swingeing criticism of the expert in this this area. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls field on the effect of the clause. It is “bizarre”; your of Birkenhead, giving the judgment of the majority, Lordships are being invited to put back into the Bill concluded: something that is bizarre. “I should not like to leave this case without registering my In this House, the noble and learned Lord, Lord strong agreement with both the majority and minority that the Lloyd of Berwick, supported by us, introduced a new law of homicide needs comprehensive and fundamental reform. clause and substitution for all the Government’s clauses It is a patchwork of rules which makes coherent direction of in question. His amendment was drafted by Professor juries unnecessarily difficult and reflects no credit on our legal John Spencer of the Faculty of Law at Cambridge system. Judges are bound to apply the law as it is, but that does University, who is an outstanding specialist in criminal not prevent one from reminding the world at large and the legislature in particular, that there is a real risk that the present law, as I am sure all lawyers would agree. The purpose law, containing as it does so many difficulties in its application, of the amendment was to abolish provocation altogether may cause injustice in individual cases, even where it is faithfully but to permit a jury, if it thought fit and subject to and correctly communicated to a jury. I do not propose to dilate safeguards, to add a rider to its verdict of guilty of 839 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 840 murder a statement of mitigating circumstances, which trial judge. That is the only case that Justice for would permit the judge to pass a sentence other than Women can cite where there was a killing by reason of the mandatory life sentence. In other words, the pure infidelity. And I, after, I regret to say, some amendment adopted one of the suggestions made by 50 years in the criminal courts, cannot recollect a the noble and learned Lord, Lord Nicholls of Birkenhead, single case in which a jury accepted that a male in the case that I quoted. That was defeated. defendant could rely on the partial defence of provocation An hour later, the noble and learned Lord, Lord based simply on his wife or partner being unfaithful. Lloyd, again supported by us, called a Division to There was a case two weeks ago, called Sinclair, in exclude all these tinkering changes with the law of which the jury brought in a verdict of manslaughter provocation. The final amendment, moved by me, was but on the grounds of diminished responsibility. In to remove the bizarre subsection. When that provision other words, the jury found that the defendant was went back to the House of Commons, the Minister, suffering from a recognised mental condition which the honourable Claire Ward, made the most basic had seriously diminished his responsibility for what he error of reversing the burden of proof. That is did. It was not the defence of provocation. But the fundamental, but she suggested that it lay on the proponents of this subsection seem to have forgotten defendant. She argued for this principle: whether the that provocation is a defence open also to the woman House believes that when a person commits sexual who kills her husband or partner. Professor Horder infidelity they in some sense bring upon their own points to a hypothetical example. Suppose a woman death at the hands of their partner, husband or wife. kills her husband because he has secretly impregnated her three daughters by an earlier marriage, or her 6pm sister, or maybe even her mother. Under the Government’s That sentiment is echoed in a letter circulated today proposals, she would be guilty of murder and would by the right honourable Harriet Harman, who says: be subject to a mandatory life sentence no matter how “The defence [of provocation] is profoundly objectionable”. great the insult and the breach of trust to her had been I agree that it is profoundly objectionable, but not for by that. the reasons that she gives. She says: I would also suggest a situation in which a woman “It blames the victim for their own death. It allows the killed her husband who had imported his mistress into defendant to shirk responsibility for their own actions and, most the matrimonial bed and treated his wife as a servant. importantly, it institutionalises the culture of excuses”. She could argue provocation on the basis of being That is just nonsensical rhetoric in an area of law of treated as a skivvy by her husband, but she would not great sensitivity that must be very carefully drafted. I be able to rely on the insult of the sex going on beside note that Vera Baird, QC, the Solicitor-General, who her every night. And what about the woman who knows her way around the Old Bailey as a skilled suffers neglect or violence at the hands of her husband criminal practitioner, has taken no part in this debate over a period of years but who finally takes up the at any stage. hammer or the meat knife when she sees him having Ms Harman adds to her letter, which some of your sex with her best friend? That is the last trigger. She Lordships will have seen, that it contaminates the issue sees him being unfaithful, but she has had a terrible around lesser offences if for the more serious offence life up to that point. Must the jury ignore the most of murder you can use this excuse to reduce the proximate insult, the cause of her attack—namely, her charge. This ignores the most basic point, which any seeing sexual infidelity in her husband—and simply student would know and would grasp in their first consider provocation on the basis of the treatment of year, that provocation is a partial defence only to the her over a period of years leading up to that point? charge of murder, for the reasons that I have given; to How do you expect the jury to disentangle one set of enable the defendant to escape the gallows if the jury circumstances from another? thinks fit in all the circumstances. Neither the Government nor Justice for Women, which gave evidence to the Murder cases throw up an infinite variety of factual Commons Committee, can produce a single instance situations. I prosecuted a case in which a young man of a jury in modern times making a finding of provocation threw a bird bath through the bedroom window, jumped in favour of a male defendant who has killed his wife in, slaughtered his former girlfriend and her lover, or partner simply by reason of her infidelity. mutilated them and then, at trial, argued diminished responsibility. He was unsuccessful, so he went to the In Humes, a case in 2002, the defendant had stabbed Court of Appeal and said that the judge should have his wife repeatedly in front of their four children, who said it was provocation. We then had a second trial, were aged 14 to seven, and there were no other witnesses. and again the jury found murder in those circumstances, It is reasonable to assume that the prosecutor took the as you would rightly expect. Supposing a husband view that it was in the public interest to accept that kills his wife and her lover on learning of her infidelity? plea to the lesser offence, rather than to call the Under this clause, he could argue provocation in respect children and during the trial to relive the experience of of the lover, who is in no way being unfaithful to him, seeing the death of their mother. That was no doubt a but not in respect of his wife. There are all sorts of rather compassionate view. The judge who sentenced difficulties about this bizarre subsection. the defendant to seven years, Sir William Gage, headed the recent working party on sentencing, of which I The Government have argued that their proposal was briefly a member, and on whose report the sentencing would send a message to the country at large that provisions in this Bill are based. The Attorney-General women are not the property of men. That no doubt is appealed that sentence to the Court of Appeal as why Professor Horder thought it so curiously old- being too lenient, but the Court of Appeal upheld the fashioned. Is it really to be supposed that a man who 841 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 842

[LORD THOMAS OF GRESFORD] further vote on this matter would be futile and I can held that belief and killed his wife would find sympathy assure the Minister that we will be abstaining on the with a jury of 12 citizens today? It is fanciful to amendment to the Motion if the noble Lord, Lord suppose that a defendant in those circumstances could Thomas, presses it. find 12 people who agreed with him that women were his property. Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, I rise Domestic violence is a daily issue in all the newspapers, to oppose the amendment and ask for the reintroduction of which no juror can be unaware. A jury is, in of the original clause. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas practice, a balanced cross-section of a local community. of Gresford, should offer an apology to my right It is much more balanced than Parliament in its honourable and learned friend Vera Baird, with whom composition, whether by gender, ethnic diversity, social I have had long conversations about the subject, and class or indeed intellectual and emotional abilities. It who fully and absolutely supports the Government’s is the experience of all of us who practise in the courts position. An apology is in order, because his remarks that the jury reflects contemporary values, because it will now be printed in Hansard. is such a cross-section of the community. I do not have and cannot give examples of what has Miss Claire Ward in another place said that the happened in court; I cannot cite cases. I can cite the Government are determined to ensure that the law views of many hundreds of women who feel absolutely keeps pace with the times, but that is exactly what a outraged that this House deleted the clause in the first jury does—it keeps pace with the times and reflects the place. The Women’s National Commission, of which I current values of the people. One therefore has to am chair, and which, as my noble friend said, represents wonder why this Government have constantly 550 very varied women’s organisations, large and small, demonstrated their unwillingness to trust such an around the country, was inundated with queries as to essentially democratic institution. how that could possibly happen. No one believed that I have wearied your Lordships long enough with it could. As a consequence, I was asked as chair my attack on this— whether I would write to the Secretary of State for Justice expressing the concerns of those many women, which I did. I was delighted—as I am sure they were as Noble Lords: Hear, hear. well—to see it back. I hope that it stays in the Bill. The Women’s National Commission has long known Lord Thomas of Gresford: May I get to the amendment, from our work with the violence against women sector in which we try to make at least some sense? It ties the the devastating effect of domestic homicide on families issue of sexual infidelity to a specific part of the and communities. In the UK, two women a week die trigger provisions; namely, that the circumstances should at the hands of their partners. That level is clearly be of an extremely grave character. It concentrates not unacceptable, but until violence against women is on the thought processes of the jury, but on the eradicated, we must ensure that justice is served on actions, intentions or reasons for action of the defendant. those men who commit such crimes. The jury can decide whether the defendant was acting As has been said, the law of provocation has a long principally out of a desire to punish his or her partner history. The killing of a wife or girlfriend by a partner by reason of what he perceived to be sexual infidelity. because of an actual or suspected infidelity—she may The focus of the amendment is on the defendant’s never have done anything, but he thinks that she state of mind—his mens rea—which is familiar territory has—has often been used in the past to reduce murder for the jury. If the issue is raised, the jury, using its to manslaughter. The law should be clear that it is no broad experience and knowledge of the world, can longer acceptable in the 21st century—not the and should determine it. I beg to move. 18th century, the 21st century—that anyone owns anyone. The penalty for infidelity—which in itself is Lord Henley: My Lords, I have some sympathy with not a crime—should not be one of killing by anyone. what the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, said, Those partners who believe it right to kill should in particular, what he had to say about the Law always go on trial for murder. In this instance, our Commission and provocation, but I sense the feeling concern is that men who kill women should not be throughout the House that this is possibly not the time able to plead the traditional argument that she was and place for quite such a lengthy debate on these unfaithful, or that she might have been unfaithful, to matters when we are considering Commons reasons. support a plea of loss of self-control. I shall briefly set out our position. The Minister The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, cited said that in another place the Government won the the Humes case of 2002. The point about the Humes Division by a majority of 154. I think he would accept case was that the judge accepted the manslaughter that anyone who listened to that debate or has read it provocation. It did not go a jury, and yet we have since will agree that the Government comprehensively heard an awful lot about how the clause is unnecessary lost the argument, even if they won the vote on that because juries would understand in this modern age. occasion. It is therefore tempting to send a matter That case did not go to a jury; the judge took the such as this back again, but it is quite clear that the decision. Therefore, the argument in respect of juries Government have fixed themselves firmly on their collapses. I find it extraordinary that those arguments misunderstanding of the argument and will stay there have been put. for the duration. To send it back would simply rehearse It is vital that the Bill is amended once more to all the same arguments, waste yet more time and do reintroduce the clause and to return it to the Commons. nothing to change their minds. I believe that any Without the clause, the Coroners and Justice Bill will 843 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 844 allow men who perpetrate violence against women to The very fact that the public have a misconception operate with impunity. It is vital that we protect women about this matter does not justify this measure. I and children by supporting the clause. Infidelity alone believe that the Government have looked upon it very cannot and should not provide a defence for murder. sincerely and have come to the wrong conclusion because they have asked the wrong question. If this 6.15 pm matter is not dealt with now, in the creative way that Lord Elystan-Morgan: My Lords, I have not spoken this House suggested, it could prove to the disadvantage in any of the earlier debates on this matter and, of women. I have profound respect, as has the House, indeed, have been more than happy to listen to the for the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of Potternewton, advice and experience of those in an excellent position and I appreciate the strong, sincere feelings that are to treat the subject, but I respectfully believe—late abroad on this matter, but it does not help the situation though the hour is in relation to these debates—that to pander to those misconceptions, to use legislation there is a fundamental misconception that goes to the to fuel them and to do so in such a way as to do a very heart, core and kernel of the issue. disservice to the administration of justice. The misconception is this. The case put forward by the Government in the House of Commons was that Lord Pannick: My Lords, can the Minister reassure the public saw the provision as enabling a person who me on one matter? I entirely understand the Government’s detected infidelity in a partner or wife to kill that arguments if the defendant lost self-control as a result partner. That has never been the law. That is the of infidelity, but supposing the defendant lost self-control misconception. I appreciate that that can easily be not just because of sexual infidelity but because of the misconceived, because the fact of infidelity, along other grave circumstances surrounding the sexual infidelity. with dozens of other situations, can prove a trigger to Suppose, for example, in a very grave case, the sexual a core conclusion by a jury that there has been a loss infidelity involved the couple’s own children. Would it of self-control of such magnitude as would justify a then be open to the defendant to rely upon those verdict of manslaughter rather than murder. circumstances in order to seek to persuade the jury The Government have themselves misconceived the that the offence of murder should be reduced to situation. I ask the House to indulge in this simple manslaughter? test. Clause 45(4), which covers one situation that can trigger a defence of provocation, states: Lord Bach: My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords “This subsection applies if D’s loss of self-control was attributable who have spoken, not least the noble Lord, Lord to a thing or things done or said (or both) which— Thomas of Gresford; although I have to say to him (a) constituted circumstances of an extremely grave character, that in his learned speech I was waiting for him to put or his amendment, and I waited a long time. He seemed (b) caused D to have a justifiable sense of being seriously to be opposing root and branch the Government’s wronged”. amendment, which we are seeking to get back into the The Bill itself provides for a situation where mere Bill, quite understandably given his attitude to it on words could be a provocation that a jury would have Report. Then, almost as an afterthought, which did to adjudicate on. not fit in logically with his opposition to the government It would be a misconception to say that surely it is amendment, he spoke in a very few minutes, without wrong that there should be justification for killing a going into any detail, to his amendment, which in man or woman on account of what that man or many ways seemed to speak against the principle of woman has said—mere words. If we were to say that, opposing any legislation that talked about sexual jealousy we would be falling into exactly the same misconception or sexual infidelity. With the greatest respect to him, I as is at the very root of the Government’s attitude in thought that there was a mismatch between his overall this matter. It is not the fact of infidelity that justifies opposition to what we are trying to bring back and the the taking of a life; it is the situation—it is a matter amendment that we are debating. not for the defence to prove but for the prosecution to If I may say so, I take his amendment rather more expunge—where the jury cannot expunge the fact that seriously that perhaps he does. I shall argue against it there could have been a loss of self-control of such on the grounds that it is, if I may use the expression, a magnitude as to reduce the case from murder to damn good try to sort this out but, when compared to manslaughter. our original clause, it is not quite as good. I shall try to In that context, bearing in mind that the law of explain why. I do not want to take up too much of the provocation is some 300 years old, as the noble Lord, House’s time, as I know that there are other matters Lord Thomas of Gresford, reminded us, that it was that noble Lords are keen to get on to, but I feel codified in Section 3 of the Homicide Act 1957 and obliged to do this. I shall do it in as short a time as I that it has never made any reference to infidelity or can. In the course of that, I hope I shall answer the any other specific condition, it has allowed the law to proper question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick. have as broad as perimeter as necessary, bearing in We cannot accept the amendment before the House, mind the myriad situations that could be relevant to which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, this issue. In those circumstances, what one has to because it risks ruling out cases where we want defendants look at is not the trigger condition—I appreciate that to be able to make out the defence and it opens up a there is a trigger provision in Clause 45—but what the loophole that could be abused in the very cases that we jury has to decide, which is whether what has happened are trying to put beyond doubt. We think his amendment has so unhinged, disintegrated or destroyed the control is both too narrow and too wide. Take the example of of the defendant as to render his act less than murder, the case mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, but rather manslaughter. in which a woman discovers her husband sexually 845 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 846

[LORD BACH] must be disregarded. Sexual infidelity cannot be relied abusing their young daughter. This is the sort of case on as the reason for claiming the partial defence, that both Houses quite rightly sought reassurance however the defendant’s motive may be described. about when scrutinising the government clauses. The I have taken the amendment seriously. It deserves Liberal Democrat amendment risks excluding such a serious consideration, and I know that it was planned case. I shall try to explain why. with the best of intentions, but I invite noble Lords to The effect of the amendment is that the defence take on board our concerns. Given the debate and cannot apply if the defendant acts principally out of a particularly what my noble friend Lady Gould said, I desire to punish the victim for any act, where that act hope that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, will not press is perceived to amount to sexual infidelity. In this his amendment to a vote this evening, as in our view it scenario, the defendant may well perceive that the might well make the position even worse. act—the abuse of the child by the father—amounts to We have had another substantial debate on this sexual infidelity, although this is unlikely of course to matter tonight, and it is now up to the noble Lord to be her reason for killing. However, the way that the decide what to do with his amendment. exclusion is formulated in the amendment means that, once an act is perceived to be infidelity, killing principally 6.30 pm in order to punish that act, whatever the motive for Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I am most killing or whatever else the act may be perceived as, grateful to the Minister. In my view, the amendment is will be excluded. So the mother horrified at the abuse wider than the Government’s proposal, not narrower. of her child, who may well kill out of a desire to One only has to state the proposition which the Minister punish her partner for abusing their child, but who advanced—that a person could rely on a defence of also feels hurt by the fact that the father sought sexual provocation because he was embarrassed by sexual gratification elsewhere, would put herself outside the infidelity—to see what nonsense that is. Of course defence on account of the perception of infidelity. there is the question of punishing someone and of That is not something that we would want to happen. jealousy and envy. We have widened the amendment in By contrast, our approach was extremely carefully that regard, so I do not accept the Minister’s criticism tailored after long consideration so as to allow the that our amendment is narrow, although I accept his partial defence to still operate in this situation. Sexual compliments for the purpose behind it. infidelity is involved in this situation, and our clauses I have the greatest respect for the noble Baroness, require that aspect to be disregarded—that is the word Lady Gould. I also have the greatest respect and we use—but the defence can still stand or fall on the admiration for Vera Baird. I did not misrepresent her basis of the other aspects of the situation, namely the point of view; I just wished that she had taken part in fact of the child abuse. the debate in the House of Commons so that one The answer to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is could grapple with real legal argument as opposed to that the sexual infidelity motive cannot be recognised, what I quoted from the right honourable Harriet but if there are other motives or reasons that constitute Harman—the contrast to which I was referring. The circumstances of an extremely grave character under numerous organisations which the noble Baroness, Clause 45(4) and cause the defendant to have a justifiable Lady Gould, represents comprise people who will be sense of being seriously wronged, that would allow the on juries—and there are more women than men on defence to be used. most juries these days—and who will put forward the Our conclusion, therefore, is that this amendment up-to-date position as the public see it. I refuse to have quite inadvertently, and with the best of intentions, my argument diverted into a suggestion that I am captures cases where we think—and both Houses have defending husbands against wives. sought reassurance from us on this point—the defence Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, I apologise ought to apply. Of course it is not the noble Lord’s to the noble Lord; I should have intervened a moment intention that his amendment should do that but, or two earlier. Many of the women I represent are regrettably, it is the effect. In that case, we think the lawyers. Some are judges and some are academics. amendment is too narrow. They are not people who might happen to sit on a The Government are also concerned that this jury; they have a very strong opinion, based on their amendment covers only those circumstances where expertise and their knowledge, that what the Government the defendant kills to punish the victim for an act of are doing is right. sexual activity or whose motive is otherwise sexual jealousy or envy. Having a list of motives risks creating Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, in that case I loopholes where killers can argue that their motive hope they will read the record of this debate and what was something else not on the list; for example: fury, I have said because, if provocation remains as a defence, shock, embarrassment or betrayal. They are not it is a defence for women who may have killed their mentioned in the amendment, so the man or woman partners or husbands, rather than the other way around. who kills having walked in on their partner having an That is the important point that I hope my speech has affair could argue that they lost their self-control and got across. I see that the noble Baroness accepts that killed out of something other than a desire to punish. that is the thrust of what I have been saying. Focusing on motive inevitably creates these potential This is a very serious issue. It is quite wrong that a gaps. That is why our amendment, which we seek to bizarre subsection, as the Law Commission put it, put back into the Bill, focuses directly on the thing should be part of our legislation. As the noble Lord, that has triggered the defendant to lose their self-control Lord Elystan-Morgan, said—I am grateful to him for and to kill. If that thing is sexual infidelity, that fact his support—there are huge misconceptions about 847 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 848 this. If this goes through, judges up and down the Crawley, B. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. country will have the greatest practical difficulty sorting Crisp, L. Mandelson, L. what juries can and cannot consider as provocation. I Cunningham of Felling, L. Martin of Springburn, L. Davidson of Glen Clova, L. just wish that this Government, instead of tinkering Masham of Ilton, B. Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] Massey of Darwen, B. about at the edges, had had the guts to reform the law Desai, L. Maxton, L. on homicide completely, as the Law Lords, the Law Drayson, L. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Commission and noble Lords have requested. I may D’Souza, B. Moonie, L. not be successful this evening. Nevertheless, I ask your Dubs, L. Morgan, L. Elder, L. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Lordships to agree to the amendment in my name. Evans of Parkside, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. Evans of Watford, L. 6.35 pm Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Morris of Handsworth, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Morrow, L. Division on Motion B1 Filkin, L. Murphy, B. Gale, B. Norton of Louth, L. Contents 63; Not-Contents 157. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. O’Loan, B. Golding, B. Paisley of St George’s, B. Motion B1 disagreed. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Palmer, L. Goudie, B. Pannick, L. Division No. 2 Gould of Potternewton, B. Patel, L. Grabiner, L. Pendry, L. CONTENTS Grantchester, L. Pitkeathley, B. Greengross, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Addington, L. [Teller] Methuen, L. Greenway, L. Prosser, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Grenfell, L. Quin, B. Hamdon, L. B. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Barker, B. Newby, L. Grocott, L. Ramsbotham, L. Blackwell, L. Nicholson of Winterbourne, Hannay of Chiswick, L. Rees of Ludlow, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B. Harries of Pentregarth, L. Rees-Mogg, L. B. Northbourne, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Rooker, L. Bradshaw, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Harrison, L. Rosser, L. Burnett, L. Razzall, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Buscombe, B. Reay, L. Haskel, L. Rowlands, L. Chester, Bp. Redesdale, L. Haworth, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Chichester, Bp. Rennard, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Sawyer, L. Clement-Jones, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Simon, V. Cotter, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Howarth of Breckland, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. Craigavon, V. Snape, L. St. John of Bletso, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Dholakia, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Soley, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Dykes, L. Howells of St. Davids, B. Stair, E. Falkner of Margravine, B. Scott of Needham Market, B. Howie of Troon, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] Hoyle, L. Sutherland of Houndwood, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Skidelsky, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Greaves, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Temple-Morris, L. Hamwee, B. Taverne, L. Jay of Ewelme, L. Thornton, B. Harris of Richmond, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. Jones, L. Tombs, L. James of Blackheath, L. Thomas of Winchester, B. Kilclooney, L. Tomlinson, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Tonge, B. King of West Bromwich, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Tope, L. Kinnock, L. Turner of Camden, B. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Tordoff, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Wall of New Barnet, B. Lee of Trafford, L. Tyler, L. Kirkhill, L. Warnock, B. Livsey of Talgarth, L. Vinson, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Low of Dalston, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. Lipsey, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Listowel, E. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. McNally, L. Walmsley, B. McDonagh, B. West of Spithead, L. Maddock, B. Walpole, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Whitaker, B. Mar and Kellie, E. Williams of Crosby, B. McIntosh of Haringey, L. Whitty, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Williams of Elvel, L. NOT CONTENTS MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Winchester, Bp. Aberdare, L. Borrie, L. L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Bradley, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. Young of Norwood Green, L. Adonis, L. Brett, L. Ahmed, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Allenby of Megiddo, V. Brookman, L. Motion B agreed. Alton of Liverpool, L. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Andrews, B. Browne of Belmont, L. Archer of Sandwell, L. Butler of Brockwell, L. 6.46 pm Bach, L. Butler-Sloss, B. Bassam of Brighton, L. Campbell of Surbiton, B. [Teller] Campbell-Savours, L. Motion C Berkeley, L. Christopher, L. Bew, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Moved by Lord Bach Billingham, B. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Bilston, L. Clinton-Davis, L. That this House do not insist on its Amendments 59, Blackstone, B. Cobbold, L. 119, 121, 236 and 239 to which the Commons have Boothroyd, B. Craig of Radley, L. disagreed. 849 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 850

Lord Bach: My Lords, we return once again to the both the Crown Prosecution Service and the Attorney- offences of inciting hatred on grounds of sexual General are bound by the Human Rights Act and orientation and, in particular, to the question of whether must therefore act compatibly with the European these offences need to be accompanied by a so-called Convention on Human Rights on freedom of expression. “freedom of expression” saving. The key point for I know that other noble Lords will wish to speak in your Lordships’ House is whether, in the light of the this debate, so I shall be short. Our submission is that clear and unambiguous views of the elected Chamber the time has now come for this House to recognise and on many occasions, it is right for this House to insist respect the will, expressed four times by large majorities, on these amendments. Members of the other place of the democratically elected Chamber, and not seek have said emphatically that a freedom of expression to insist on its amendments. I beg to move. saving is not required. They have now done this not once, not twice, not thrice, but four times. Amendment to the Motion At the Report stage of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill, on 9 January 2008, the other place Moved by Lord Waddington voted by a majority of 169 to reject the freedom of C1: As an amendment to Motion C, leave out expression saving. On 6 May 2008, during consideration “not”. of this House’s amendments to the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill, the other place rejected the Lord Waddington: My Lords, on Monday, in the saving by a majority of 202. During the Report stage other place, the Minister said that it was the settled proceedings on this Bill, the other place voted a third will of the elected House that the free speech safeguard time, by a majority of 154, in favour of the repeal of be removed from the statute book. But what sort of the saving. And on Monday last, the other place settled will is it when not a single Labour Member rejected Lords Amendment 59 by a majority of no less supported the Government’s case? Indeed, almost the than 197. Set against the majorities the Government only person on the Labour Benches throughout the can normally command in the Commons, these are debate was the honourable David Taylor who, in spite substantial defeats for the freedom of expression saving. of the Government having refused to allow a free vote Of course, as a revising Chamber, it is perfectly on this matter of conscience, stuck to his guns and legitimate for this House to ask the other place to voted for free speech. think again. What is, I would argue, of questionable The issue remains as it was in July: there is no legitimacy is to ask the elected House to think again, dispute over whether there should be a new offence of and again, and again, and again. There must come a stirring up hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation; point where this House, with all its great virtues and and no one says that this safeguard weakens the its importance, gives way to the House that has been offence or alters the threshold for the offence. The elected by the people of this country. The Government question is: what conceivable benefit will accrue from would argue that this is the time when, with reluctance, the repeal of a safeguard for free speech which parallels that is what this House should do, the House of that in the religious hatred offence—and repealing it Commons having voted so substantially for opposing without even waiting to see whether, in practice, it the freedom of expression saving. interferes in any way with proper enforcement of the This House has made its position clear. We recognise law? the strongly held views of those who argue that Section The Government say that the words are unnecessary. 29JA of the Public Order Act should remain on the But they are certainly useful in that, following the statute book. I reiterate our view that this provision is precedent set by the religious hatred offence, they simply not needed, given the exceptionally high threshold provide clear guidance on the statute as regards what for the offence, capturing as it does only threatening is lawful. Their value was well illustrated by the noble words and behaviour intended to stir up or incite Lord, Lord Dear, in July, when he pointed out how the hatred. Our submission is not simply that the saving is free speech clause was helping the police to resist the not necessary but that it is positively harmful as it pressure put on them to follow up complaints made by could sow doubts about the scope of the offence and people wishing to suppress any criticism of homosexual seek to legitimise the use of threatening words or behaviour. After the noble Lord’s speech, I expected behaviour which are intended to incite hatred on the that the Government would go away and think seriously grounds of sexual orientation. Those who use such about how this problem might be dealt with; how words or behaviour and intend to incite hatred on the there might be no repetition of the obvious abuses grounds of sexual orientation should not have a so-called which have occurred; and how the police might be freedom of expression saving to shield them. discouraged from following up trivial complaints. But A very high threshold for the offence provides the Government have done nothing. In our last debate, sufficient protection for freedom of speech. If that the CPS guidance was exposed as not only hopelessly were not the case, the Joint Committee on Human defective but calculated to cause mischief. The Government Rights and the Equality and Human Rights Commission have not yet got down to issuing proper guidance would no doubt have been the first to point that out. themselves. They have done nothing while abuses have Both bodies gave careful consideration to the offence continued. and each concluded that freedom of speech is sufficiently One other respect in which the Government have protected without any need for Section 29JA. clearly failed in their duty is that, after months and Noble Lords will also recall that the offence may months, we are still waiting for them to address the only be prosecuted with the consent of my noble and obvious point that, if we are to finish up with a free learned friend the Attorney-General. As public authorities, speech clause in the religious hatred offence but no 851 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 852 such clause here, we are simply asking for trouble. On others are not. Quite a lot of bullying goes on, particularly Monday, the Minister in the other place said that the in schools. There is also bullying by gangs on some of Government did not approve of the free speech clause our streets. No doubt the individual who sought to in the religious hatred offence. However, they have not remonstrate with someone who was shouting obscenities lifted a finger to remove it. The question remains: at him, believing him to be gay, thought that he was what regard would the police be likely to pay to the exercising his right of free speech, but he was immediately right of Christians and others to comment on sexual surrounded, beaten up badly and later died in hospital. behaviour if Parliament went out of its way today to The police are treating that as a homophobic crime. say that free speech is important when it comes to No one supporting the amendment would support comment on religious matters but is of no importance such activity, but words matter, and that is particularly when it comes to comment on matters of sex? We the case when they appear in legislation. They help to would be giving the clearest signal to the police that change how people look at the world around them. they should interfere to prevent any criticism of Some groups, whether for cultural or religious reasons, homosexual behaviour. simply do not like gay or lesbian people or what they On Monday, speaking from the Labour Benches in do. They want to be able to say so—yes—but that does the Commons, the honourable David Taylor said: not include the right to bully, harass or threaten. The “I thought that free speech, civil liberties and human rights wording of the amendment opens the door to people who were exactly the sorts of things that we were supposed to be in want to feel that they have a right to question relationships favour of”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/11/09; col. 109.] that are perfectly legal and do not harm anyone, and They are not only the sorts of things Labour supporters they can then go on to make threats with impunity. On are supposed to favour; they are the sorts of things at the last occasion when we had a debate on this matter the core of our democracy, in which we all believe. I in this House, I said that we did not want a society in trust that we will make that very plain tonight. I beg to which gay and lesbian people were afraid to go out at move. night for fear of an attack. There has been an increase in the number and violence of homophobic attacks. Baroness Turner of Camden: My Lords, I oppose We must ensure that this is not one of the unlooked-for the amendment. As the Minister said, this is the fourth results of legislation passed in your Lordships’ House. time that we have discussed this issue. In July, the I urge noble Lords to support the Government’s position noble Lord, Lord Waddington, was successful in gaining on this and oppose the amendment. the support of a majority of your Lordships. It is before us again tonight because the Government, I am glad to say, opposes it, and this opposition has been supported in the other place. 7pm As I recall, a majority of your Lordships supported Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, the amendment, the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, on 9 July, believing which I support, does not in my view encourage that the amendment safeguarded the right to freedom anything with which the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, of speech. An argument on these lines has been advanced is concerned. It is not designed to have, nor will it by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, in an article in The have, the effect that she is understandably worried House Magazine. In support, the noble Lord quotes about. If I may respectfully say so, she has got this Lord Justice Sedley in a judgment in 1999. The judge wrong. then ruled: I have had more letters and e-mails this week than I “Free speech includes not only the inoffensive, but the irritating, have had on all previous occasions when this matter the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and has come before this House. I should like the Government the provocative—provided it does not tend to provoke violence”. to appreciate that there is an equal strength of feeling The qualification “provided it does not tend to provoke in this House, which is not whipped in the same violence” is very important. way—certainly not with regard to Cross-Benchers—as Those who spoke in support of the amendment last there was in the other place, if not greater. There is a time emphasised that they were not homophobic and great strength of feeling among a minority of society did not condone homophobic violence. I, of course, and we ought not to ignore that either. As I have accept that those assurances were given in good faith. expressed on every occasion, I do not support what We know that there are countries where fundamentalist the minority says, but I support their right to say it, religions are powerful and it is quite usual there for because there is and should be freedom of speech. clerics to advise their followers to attack homosexual The real worry is that the lack of an amendment of people, often in the most gruesome and horrific way. the kind moved by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, Frequently death awaits those whose sexual orientation would give the message that he has described. It is not becomes known and is disapproved of. We, of course, the message to the Crown Prosecution Service, because have established a more humane and tolerant society, it is unlikely that it will prosecute. The message is at of which we are all proud. I am pleased with the way the beginning of the investigation; it is what the police in which, over the years, we have established equal think that they have to do. As the noble Lord, Lord rights so that it is now unlawful to discriminate against Dear, said, and I hope will say again, the police want people on grounds of their sexual orientation, and we some protection from being told that they have to act now have provision for civil partnerships. because something has been said that people do not But that is the law—culture is sometimes different. like—they have been sometimes bullied and got at by Sadly, much of our society is quite violent, and there members of the public. I do not think that the fears has recently been a growth in violence directed at gay are important here. What matters is freedom of speech, and lesbian people. Some of the worst cases get reported; which is what we should be supporting tonight. 853 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 854

Lord Dear: My Lords, in speaking in support of the As I commented in July, what a waste of time and noble Lord, Lord Waddington, I make a number of resources and what a terrible burden on the person points in fairly quick time. Your Lordships addressed caught up in the process. The tactics were sometimes this issue in great depth and detail on 9 July this year, all too obvious: a tactical complaint from a pressure when the debate continued for over two hours. I do group; the inevitable police response; and the chilling not believe that we need take that amount of time effect on those who might later be tempted to speak up today. The facts and issues have not changed. in public in a similar way—all in all, a very successful This has nothing to do with homophobia; the law way of dissuading and limiting free speech. is, rightly, rigorous enough already. It has everything I reported in the debate in July that the police to do with freedom of speech within the law, a principle support the Waddington amendment and I reassert that I was happy and proud to uphold in my earlier that today. The Association of Chief Police Officers professional career in the police service. I reflect that has carefully distanced itself from the issue; it has not upholding that principle of free speech sometimes declared a position either publicly or, as far as I know, called for a very delicate judgment, protecting the privately. But individual chief officers, members of majority from the minority and almost simultaneously ACPO, and junior officers who face this problem in protecting the minority from the majority. I shall the streets have told me privately, in numbers, very return to that police dilemma in a moment. clearly, that they support the amendment proposed, Surprisingly, I do not recall anyone in our July which will allow them to use a discretion and common debate reminding us of the well known, often hackneyed sense that is often denied them in contemporary society words of Voltaire: and allow them to deal with these situations with that light touch that so many of us, and them, want to see. They “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death resent the straitjacket that had been imposed on them. your right to say it”. While Parliament debates the pros and cons, patent That principle has been a cornerstone of English law injustices continue. Speaking in the other place on for centuries and, until recently, there has been little Monday this week, when the Waddington amendment cause to defend that principle. So long as the words was removed from the Bill, the Minister, Claire Ward, were not intended to cause violence or gross insult, or said in her introductory remarks: likely to do so, they were tolerated. Noble Lords have it in their power tonight to protect that principle. “The House is not attacking free speech. It is clear that people retain their right to freedom of speech. The clause is unnecessary I must say, as the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, because the threshold of the offence is already set incredibly high has already said, that it seems to me nonsense that, … We believe that we have got the balance right”.—[Official while there is a free speech clause in the legislation Report, Commons, 9/11/09; col. 101.] dealing with religious hatred, it is now sought to I very much doubt whether Mrs Pauline Howe exclude a similar clause in the homophobic hatred would agree with that. Mrs Howe’s experience is by no offence. Is it, perhaps, that the Government have bowed means the only example that I could cite. Mrs Howe to lobby groups that are more vociferous in the one was not a shrill, loud-mouthed demonstrator, shrieking category than in the other? abuse in the streets. She did not carry a placard in When I spoke in the debate in July, I highlighted the public with abusive or insulting words written on it. position and plight of the police and the prosecuting Mrs Howe is an eminently respectable, highly principled, authorities. I shall do so again. Before the introduction late-middle-aged, middle-class lady married to a of the Waddington amendment in 2008, the police clergyman. She lives in Norwich. In July this year, she and the prosecuting authorities were in an almost wrote a letter to c. She complained against the holding impossible position. There had never been any question of a Gay Pride march in Norwich. that behaviour would be tolerated if it was offensive, The letter, which I have seen, was well constructed aggressive, threatening or demeaning. The police would, and forthright, but it was by no means inflammatory. and should, uphold the law to curb behaviour of that However, the council officials in their wisdom saw fit kind. The current law is robust and adequate on this to pass it to the police. In September, she was visited point. But the police regularly received complaints and interviewed in her own home by not one but two from homosexual groups that exception was taken to police officers from Norfolk Constabulary. She was remarks that homosexuality was deplored on religious interviewed for writing a letter, not for demonstrating grounds. The police were forced to act. They operated in public. I have spoken to Mrs Howe at length on the against a background of Home Office guidance notes telephone and she has authorised me to quote from a on how to handle hate crime under the Public Order letter that she wrote to me. She said: Act 1986, to which the issue of sexual orientation was “I must say, the police officers were professional and polite … added by the criminal justice Act 2008. nevertheless, the visit frightened me. Why was I made to feel like a criminal when all I had done was to express an opinion? It was an The so-called guidance notes in fact required rigid intimidating experience. For 67 years I have been a law-abiding adherence. Any complaint of hate crime, whoever citizen. I know some people don’t like my beliefs. That’s fine, it’s a made it, even if it was made by a bystander, had to be free country. But surely I have the right to express my beliefs, formally recorded and fully investigated in the ensuing particularly to a government body, without fear of a visit from procedure. No exercise of discretion was countenanced. police. This is Britain isn’t it?”. The prosecuting authorities were bound to go through Well, Mrs Howe, this is Britain in 2009 and I dare bet the whole rigmarole of interview, arrest, fingerprinting, that George Orwell on this particular point would taking DNA samples, police bail and so on, even have been hard pressed to envisage such a state of though it was clear to all concerned that there was affairs when he was writing his celebrated novel in the little likelihood of a prosecution or even a conviction. 1940s. 855 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 856

The noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, has Lord Smith of Finsbury: I am afraid that it does. The already referred to the case that I referred to in July—that point that I was about to make is that legislation, in the of Redmond-Bate and the DPP in 1999. She quoted at signals that it sends to the world outside, can have an some speed from it. I want to take noble Lords rather impact on behaviour way beyond the actual meaning more slowly over those same words, because they bear of the words in the legislation. There is already a huge heavily on what we are looking at night. I quoted that amount of anxiety and fear among the gay community judgment at length before and I will not do that about the increasing level of attacks. If the signal that tonight—I will not explore the same ground—but the the House sends is that it is all right to be intolerant, I case still provides the best and surest signpost to us in fear that we will end up seeing more violence and more our deliberations. attacks and more difficulty for people simply because In that case, allowing the appeal of a woman who of their sexual orientation. That is why I feel so passionately. was described as a fundamentalist Christian and who If this House stands up for free speech, as it so often had been arrested for addressing a crowd from the has to, on this particular matter, it is at risk of sending steps of Wakefield Cathedral, Lord Justice Sedley in the wrong signal to the wrong people outside. the Queen’s Bench Divisional Court defined free speech, saying in his judgment: Lord Mackay of Clashfern: My Lords, first, the “Free speech includes not only the inoffensive but the irritating, only reason that the House of Commons has given for the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome and rejecting the amendment agreed by your Lordships is the provocative provided it does not tend to provoke violence. that it is unnecessary. Secondly, it has been said a great Freedom only to speak inoffensively is not worth having”. many times that the House of Commons has voted on He concluded that, this from time to time, but there is one important “our world has seen too many examples of state control of omission from that little category; namely, the time unofficial ideas”. when it became part of a statute. The House of It has indeed. I urge noble Lords, keeping the Mrs Howes Commons at that stage must have agreed to it because of this world in the forefront of their minds, to insist it is on the statute book. It is not a question of still in the Britain of 2009 on the inclusion of the free being an amendment proposed by the noble Lord, speech clause in the Bill. Lord Waddington. Unless and until an Act of Parliament is passed to change it, it is on the statute book by 7.15 pm agreement of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal. I Lord Smith of Finsbury: My Lords, I rise to plead know that the Government said when they accepted with your Lordships’ House to reject the amendment the amendment as part of the statute that they would and agree with the House of Commons. I do so return to this matter, but that is aside from the point because it is important for us to recognise the signal that they allowed it onto the statute book at that time. that legislation sometimes sends to the world outside. As far as I am concerned, the main thrust of the The problem is that we are faced with a clash of clause that is in the Bill and remains in the Bill is competing profound values. No one could possibly against any kind of violence against those with a argue against the principle of free speech and the need sexual orientation that is in question. The provision is of this House and this Parliament to uphold free very strong against that. Nothing in the amendment speech. proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, detracts I happen to be gay. I happen also to be a Christian. from that in the slightest. Over the years, this House I like to believe that I am robust enough to be able to has had the responsibility of maintaining the freedoms be criticised and have offensive things sometimes said that have been hard won in our country. I believe that to me because of my sexual orientation and sometimes we should not flinch from doing that just because they to be abused because of my sexual orientation. Many happen to be attacked more than once, twice, three or other lesbians and gay men face the same sort of four times. offence and difficulty week in, week out. The freedom Indeed, when the Minister in the House of Commons of people to express criticism is something that I was summing up just before the vote was taken, she said: defend to the hilt. “It is important that we make it clear to the public and to However, we also know that the level of violence those who have strong religious and moral views that we are in no against lesbians and gay men because of their sexual way fettering their freedom of speech”.—[Official Report, Commons, orientation is increasing. Very recently, we had the 9/11/09; col. 122.] case of someone who was first shouted at, then abused I invite your Lordships to support the amendment and then assaulted in the heart of our capital city; he proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, which subsequently died. The attack happened because of does just that. his sexual orientation. We can support the expression of intolerance, but the problem comes when intolerance The Lord Bishop of Winchester: My Lords, I shall spills over into physical violence. say very little because virtually everything I wished to I am not suggesting that anyone who says that we say has been said by the noble Lords, Lord Waddington should protect free speech in relation to this amendment and Lord Dear, and by the noble and learned Lord, would conceivably condone activity of that kind, but Lord Mackay. Having read Monday’s debate in the the problem is— other place, as others have said, the case seemed to be asserted but not made. I believe that this element of Lord Vinson: Is that point not already covered what, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, under existing law quite clearly and therefore what the rightly said, is the law, is necessary. It does not affect noble Lord is saying has no bearing on what we are the very high threshold, but it makes clear that this discussing tonight? element of the law we are talking about keeping is 857 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 858

[THE LORD BISHOP OF WINCHESTER] Baroness Falkner of Margravine: Let me start by permissible. It protects individuals and society from making it clear that on these Benches, as with issues of the chilling and dumbing effect on free speech and conscience—we consider this Motion to be an issue of debate that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, particularly, in conscience—we have a free vote. My remarks, from the past, in writing and this evening, has clearly expressed. the position on which I stand, are mine and mine I want to take issue with the noble Baroness, Lady alone, and I accept responsibility for that. However, I Turner, and the noble Lord, Lord Smith. I want to say speak as a Liberal. In a democracy, free speech is a to the noble Baroness that words do matter, but, as the fundamental prerequisite that allows for all people, noble Lord, Lord Waddington, intimated but did not but particularly for minorities, however off the wall go into detail about, the absence of words matters too. their views might be, to find expression of those views. If these words are not on the statute book, it will be The Minister told us that where incitement is concerned harder for the police to be assisted in the ways in we need his clause. If it is incitement, statute exists to which the noble Lord, Lord Dear, has expressed. They cover those crimes. need to be assisted to work in a way that uses their Those minorities who have views on the basis of intelligence, common sense and judgment, and thus prejudice or, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said, do not waste time investigating people who have not ignorance or—I speak from a certain perspective with done anything to deserve being investigated, long before which the House is familiar—from a religious perspective, the Attorney-General comes into the picture. where those views do not impinge on the rights of I say to the noble Lord, Lord Smith, that signals others, they should be given expression in a tolerant matter, and they do. I share with him a horror of the and just society. It is for the rest of us in this kind of fact that people are attacked, beaten up and killed society to help those who hold entrenched religious because others believe them to be homosexual or views to cast their objections to our behaviour in because they are homosexual. That is manifestly wrong respect of the values that prevail today. Therefore, it is and wicked. But, as the noble Lord said, many others our duty—I speak as a Muslim—to help others from live increasingly in anxiety and fear. There is a very among our ranks who for religious reasons do not go strong sense across quite a wide swathe not only of along with certain freedoms and to work with them so Christian opinion but of other opinion that the rights that they can see that our values might, in another of those who hold the kind of views that this law instance, protect their values. would defend are seen as second-class. That is even I shall comment briefly on the chilling effect that there in the language of the noble Lord, Lord Smith. these kinds of clauses have. To paraphrase the noble He said that it will be taken that it is all right to be Lord, Lord Smith, he implied that legislation has a intolerant. That is a particular kind of judgment on totemic effect on society whereby lessons are drawn those who take the view that this amendment in defence from it without it having had to be applied. It also has of a piece of law seeks to sustain. the reverse effect; namely, that the existence of something Notwithstanding an unargued assumption of the in a statute makes one think and think again. That is Government that they must carry on in this way, it is an impingement of a person’s freedom. So when we most important that people of all sorts can be assured make law, we have to be extremely careful not to bring that, whether they are on street corners, in mosques, about unintentional effects. The number of plays that churches or synagogues, or be they journalists, academics, are withdrawn, exhibitions cancelled, writers threatened comedians or whatever, they are free to express views or academics unable to publish are too numerous for with which others may strongly disagree and which me to mention, but I know full well that this chilling question the currently dominant political orthodoxy effect exists. in these matters. Finally, speaking as a member of multiple minorities—of a religions minority, an ethnic minority Baroness Paisley of St George’s: My Lords, with and, in this House, a gender minority—I say that we regard to Mrs Howe, whose name was mentioned, she look to the law for protection probably more than and her husband are personal friends of mine and I most others. We look to the law for protection, but not want to support all that my noble friend Lord Dear at the cost of impinging on the freedoms of all. said on Mrs Howe’s behalf. I have no hard feelings 7.30 pm against anyone because of their sexual orientation or any orientation, whether it is religious, political, ethnic Lord Clarke of Hampstead: My Lords, I do not or anything else, but I do not think that it has been intend at this hour to repeat what I said in previous mentioned tonight that people taking part in gay pride debates. I support the amendment of the noble Lord, marches can offend those who do not agree with them, Lord Waddington. I thought that we had done sufficient, even though they do not say a word. I never go to see in the education of the other end of the building, to the gay pride marches, but as a born-again Bible-believing see that this would not come back. I will not go into Christian, I have been offended when people have the highways and byways, but will deal with two carried placards and shouted out that Jesus Christ is a things. The first is the question of signals. If this fag. That has offended not only me; it has offended House were to reject an amendment that calls for thousands of Christians. It has offended even people freedom of speech in our nation, that signal will be who are not practising Christians to think that others misrepresented and used against politicians of all parties have been offended in this manner. I believe in free for a long time. speech for all and it would be totally wrong to support Secondly, today is an appropriate day for this debate. the Government tonight. I support the noble Lord, We have seen a magnificent service in Westminster Lord Waddington, 100 per cent. Abbey, following the tremendous display of support 859 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 860 for our Armed Forces and veterans on Remembrance Lord Henley: My Lords, I fail to see the relevance of Sunday.On Saturday evening, I and others were privileged the noble Lord’s point. We are talking about what to hear a Member of this House, the most reverend goes on in this House. I made it clear that we on these Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, deliver his Benches have a free vote. Will he confirm that the homily to the gathered ranks in the Albert Hall. We same is true on his Benches? heard him use the word “freedom”. The freedom that he referred to was also the freedom that those gallant Lord Bach: My Lords, I will not. This is government people who were represented at the weekend fought policy and we expect Members on our Benches to for over many generations. It is the same freedom that support the Government—I make no bones about it. Her Majesty the Queen honoured when she showed It is not we who are ambiguous about this, but the her support for civilians and servicemen who have noble Lord’s party. In the Commons, their Front been through dreadful times. The word that keeps Bench spokesman said that their Front Bench would coming through is “freedom”. In my book, the basic vote to support the amendment of the noble Lord, freedom that should always be included is freedom of Lord Waddington. That did not sound to me like a speech. I support the amendment. free vote, but a hint to those behind him and a message to those sitting on the Front Bench with him. Is it a Lord Henley: My Lords, I intervene briefly, first to free vote or not? I recall that the last time that we make it clear, as the late Lord Kingsland did in Committee, debated this, in Committee, there was a so-called free that on these Benches this is a matter for a free vote. It vote—the noble Lord used the same expression. will be entirely up to each Member on these Benches to decide how to vote. I shall support my noble friend Baroness Trumpington: My Lords, I wonder whether in due course. I would be right in saying that 99 per cent of the Members in this Chamber have already made up their Secondly, I will pick up the point made by the minds which way they are going to vote. Will the Minister about this matter being debated four times, Minister cut the cackle and let us get on with it? and sent back to us four times by another place. This was very well dealt with by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. My late friend Noble Lords: Hear hear. Lord Kingsland made the same point in June or July when he said that the Government chose not to oppose Lord Bach: My Lords, there is no answer to that. I the decision taken in your Lordships’ House last year will cut the cackle, but it will be interesting to see to support, whether there will be a repeat of what happened last time there was a “free vote”, when about 109 out “my noble friend Lord Waddington’s amendment, which subsequently became Section 29JA of the Public Order Act 1986”. of 111 of the party opposite voted in one Lobby and their Whips were seen in the Lobby during the vote. My late friend continued: We will see tonight whether that changes. “It is, in my view, an abuse of parliamentary procedure to bring this matter back to Parliament without any evidence that My second point is that the noble Lord, Lord Parliament had made bad law, especially when the same Government Waddington, talked about the settled will of the other are in power. Indeed, the Government say, in terms, that Section 29JA place. He made the point that one government Back- is not bad law. Their case is that it is unnecessary law because the Bencher got up to support the Government the other definition of the offence of incitement implies, in terms, the day. I will tell him what the settled will of the other contents of my noble friend Lord Waddington’s amendment … place is. In these circumstances, it cannot be good constitutional practice for a Government to compel Parliament, the law-maker”— Lord Waddington: My Lords, no member of the and this is what they are doing— Labour Party supported the Government. The only “to spend further time on this matter. Indeed, I would describe it member of the Labour Party who spoke, spoke in as abuse of legislative procedure”.—[Official Report, 9/7/09; col. 812.] favour of my amendment. With that and with the speeches that we have heard this evening, we should invite the Minister to comment Lord Bach: My Lords, the honourable Claire Ward, and then invite the House to come to a decision on the a member of the Labour Party in the House of Commons, issue. spoke very well on that occasion. The noble Lord says there is no settled will of the other place. The settled Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who will was expressed in the majorities of 169, 202, 154 and have spoken in the debate on both sides of the issue— 197. That seems to me to represent conclusively the starting with the noble Lord, Lord Waddington. I will settled will of the other place. It is perhaps time, on deal with a couple of preliminaries. I was interested this issue, that this House realises that it not the that the noble Lord reaffirmed that, in this House at elected House. least, his party is on a free vote. That was not the case The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in the Commons the other day. The honourable made the point that there is great strength of feeling in Mr Dominic Grieve said: this House. Of course there is—I accept that and “We on the Opposition Front Bench will vote to support Lord respect it, even though I disagree with many noble Waddington’s amendment”.—[Official Report, Commons, 9/11/09; Lords. The noble and learned Baroness contrasted col. 109.] that with the strength of feeling in the other place. If that is not a Whip, I do not know what is, but I am There is great strength of feeling on this issue in both delighted that there is not one today—but perhaps places. The difference is that the other place is the noble Lords would tell me what it is. elected place—this House is not elected. I am sorry to 861 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 862

[LORD BACH] payer cannot write to their local authority criticising repeat the proposition, but it is normal and constitutionally something without that private letter being passed proper, when the other place has voted on as many onto the police? That is the real point. occasions as it has with such huge majorities on an issue such as this, to support the views of the elected 7.45 pm Chamber. The issue is not really freedom of expression. No-one Lord Bach: The noble Lord makes a fair point. here is against freedom of expression. I have already tried to point out that freedom of expression is preserved Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: Perhaps I may intervene. by this legislation, first, by the fact that the Attorney- I did not speak earlier, because we wanted to get General has to approve of all prosecutions and she is through the debate quickly. I live in Brighton where bound to follow the European Convention on Human you have complete freedom. Rights. Secondly, two very distinguished groups—the Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Equality and Human Rights Commission—have looked at this Lord Stoddart of Swindon: My Lords, you cannot matter carefully and concluded that there are no freedom- have an intervention on an intervention. I should like of-expression issues. the Minister to be allowed to answer my intervention. If you are to have freedom-of-expression clauses in the Bill, why not have them in every Bill? Why do you Lord Bach: I think that I already have done that. not always have a freedom-of-expression clause? The noble Lord made a fair point. The point that I am trying to make is that this lady would not fall foul of Lord Tebbit: The Minister is on an important point. this legislation, whether or not there was a freedom-of- Perhaps he can give us a guarantee that the Government expression clause. will not seek to remove the similar provision concerning religious discrimination. Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe: My Lords, I come Lord Bach: My Lords, I cannot give guarantees from a city where there is freedom. You can write to about any future Government. That provision was the local newspaper, criticise gay pride, raise issues passed by a majority of one vote in the House of on the radio and in phone-ins, and no action is taken Commons and became the law. Of course I understand by the police. Will the Minister clarify the position as that completely. However, the noble Lord may hope regards ACPO, given that we are provided with much that his party will come to power in a few months; if evidence, based on confidential discussions with police that is to be the case, how can I possibly give any officers who are not named and which we have no way guarantee as to what it may or may not do? This is not of checking? at all about freedom of expression. We all agree that there should be maximum freedom of expression. Lord Bach: I am grateful. I was just about to move I turn to the case of Mrs Howe. I understand the on to ACPO and what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, comments that have been made about her and that she told us. He said in July: is a personal friend of the noble Baroness, Lady “However, my recent discussions privately with senior ACPO Paisley. However, given that the case has been also figures, including those most closely involved with issues of this raised by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, I should tell the nature, reveal two facts critical to our debate today: first, not only House what this middle-class lady said in her letter to has ACPO not declared an official stance but it has not given an Norwich City Council. She referred to homosexuals unofficial view in any quarter; secondly, it would much prefer to see the defeat of Clause 61 and the continuation of the Waddington as “sodomites” and blamed, “their perverted sexual amendment”.—[Official Report, 9/7/09; col. 803.] practice” for sexually transmitting diseases and for the “downfall of every Empire”. She is, of course, absolutely Stephen Otter, the ACPO lead on race and diversity, entitled to make those remarks. The chief executive of was so concerned about that statement that he wrote Stonewall himself said that the police response had to the Government before we contacted him on the been disproportionate, so the very suggestion that she issue. He wanted to clarify that ACPO, would somehow fall foul of this legislation, if there “would not enter into this debate on either side”. were no freedom-of-expression clause in it, is absolute He clearly believed that the views of his organisation nonsense. Whatever view you take of what she did, it had been misrepresented. He said that, was hardly threatening, nor was it intended to stir up “individual chief officers … may or may not have expressed a hatred on the grounds of sexual orientation. This lady variety of view … but it is vital these conversations are not taken was entitled to make her remarks; she did so, and the as representing the view of ACPO in its role of representing the police have been criticised. What has it got to do with police forces of England and Wales”. this particular issue? Consequently, it is simply wrong to suggest that ACPO is for, or indeed against, the retention of Section 29JA Lord Stoddart of Swindon: The noble Lord said of the Public Order Act. I am entitled to ask from this that the police have been criticised. That is not the real Dispatch Box why we heard, not just in Committee point. This lady wrote a private letter to her local but tonight, the view that stated, “Hush, hush; secret, authority and it should have been kept confidential. secret; police officers are for the Waddington amendment”. The police would not have been involved unless that It seems to me that the noble Lord, Lord Dear, is local authority—perhaps by breaking the Data Protection trying to have it both ways. He is trying to say that Act—had passed on the letter to the police. Have we ACPO does not have an official policy on this, but I reached a stage in this country where a council tax have spoken— 863 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 864

Lord Dear: In another place and, I suspect, in 7.53 pm another age, I would be sending my seconds round to the Minister at this point—but I resist that temptation. Division on Motion C1 Perhaps I may read from my speaking notes accurately Contents 179; Not-Contents 135. for a second time. I said: “The Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) has carefully Motion C1 agreed. distanced itself from the issue. It has not declared a position either publicly, or so far as I know, privately. But individual Chief Division No. 3 Officers (members of ACPO), and junior officers who face this problem in the streets, have told me privately, very clearly, that CONTENTS they support the amendment”, Aberdare, L. Hayhoe, L. because it gives them discretion, and so on. Perhaps I Ahmed, L. Henley, L. may say that I am probably better placed than most Allenby of Megiddo, V. Higgins, L. noble Lords in this House to take a straw poll of the Alton of Liverpool, L. Hooper, B. opinion at ACPO level, unofficially and on the streets. Anelay of St Johns, B. Howard of Rising, L. I stand by what I said. Arran, E. Howe, E. Bagri, L. Howie of Troon, L. Lord Bach: I hope that I have answered my noble Bates, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Bell, L. Hylton, L. friend; he knows ACPO’s position. Bew, L. Inge, L. I repeat that these offences relate only to threatening Bilimoria, L. Inglewood, L. words and behaviour intended to stir up hatred. They Blackwell, L. James of Blackheath, L. were introduced because of the fact that gay men were Boothroyd, B. James of Holland Park, B. often subject to attacks of this kind. That is why the Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, Jenkin of Roding, L. L. Kilclooney, L. legislation was introduced. Those uttering such words Brookman, L. King of Bridgwater, L. or exhibiting such behaviour should not have the Brougham and Vaux, L. Kingsdown, L. cloak of so-called freedom of expression saving to Browne of Belmont, L. Kirkham, L. protect them. Burnett, L. Kirkhill, L. Buscombe, B. Knight of Collingtree, B. This is a moment of truth. Do we really mean it Butler of Brockwell, L. Laing of Dunphail, L. when we say that gay men and lesbian women should Butler-Sloss, B. Laird, L. be treated as equal, and that we should do all we can Byford, B. Lang of Monkton, L. to avoid them being discriminated against, threatened Caithness, E. Leach of Fairford, L. and having violence used against them? Or do we Cameron of Lochbroom, L. Lewis of Newnham, L. Cathcart, E. Listowel, E. think that it does not really matter? Although very Chester, Bp. Liverpool, E. distinguished speeches have been made on behalf of Chichester, Bp. Livsey of Talgarth, L. the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, not least his own, Chorley, L. Luce, L. the claim that he and those who support him make, Clarke of Hampstead, L. Luke, L. that this is an issue of freedom of speech, is untrue: it Colville of Culross, V. Lyell, L. is not about freedom of speech at all. Freedom of Colwyn, L. McColl of Dulwich, L. Cope of Berkeley, L. MacGregor of Pulham speech is guaranteed. People in this country should Craig of Radley, L. Market, L. not be arrested under this section because they have Craigavon, V. Mackay of Clashfern, L. behaved or spoken in the same way, for example, as the Crathorne, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, lady who was mentioned. We are talking about an Crickhowell, L. L. extremely serious criminal offence with a very high De Mauley, L. Maginnis of Drumglass, L. Dear, L. Mallalieu, B. threshold. Not only is the freedom of expression clause D’Souza, B. Mancroft, L. unnecessary but it has the danger that it may lead Dundee, E. Marlesford, L. some of those who attempt to commit this offence to Eccles, V. Martin of Springburn, L. rely on the cloak that it offers. So those who really Eccles of Moulton, B. Masham of Ilton, B. believe what they say about equality as far as sexual Eden of Winton, L. Mawhinney, L. Elton, L. Mawson, L. orientation is concerned should support the Government Evans of Parkside, L. Mayhew of Twysden, L. tonight. Falkland, V. Methuen, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. Miller of Hendon, B. Lord Waddington: I am bound to say that I have Feldman, L. Monson, L. been rather surprised by the Minister’s reply. At no Ferrers, E. Montgomery of Alamein, V. Fookes, B. Montrose, D. time has he sought to address the issue before the Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Moore of Lower Marsh, L. House tonight. There is no doubt that there have been Fraser of Carmyllie, L. Moran, L. abuses in the sense of inappropriate action by the Freeman, L. Morris of Aberavon, L. police. My amendment is an attempt to prevent those Gardner of Parkes, B. Morris of Bolton, B. abuses continuing. The Government have not said one Geddes, L. Morrow, L. Glenarthur, L. Neill of Bladen, L. word as to how they propose to deal with this difficulty Glentoran, L. Neville-Jones, B. with which we are faced today. Therefore, one can only Gordon of Strathblane, L. Noakes, B. describe the Minister’s reply as failing completely to Goschen, V. Northbourne, L. meet the object of such a reply; that is, to answer the Greengross, B. Northbrook, L. points made in the debate. Greenway, L. O’Cathain, B. [Teller] Grenfell, L. O’Loan, B. I know that the House wishes to come to a quick Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Onslow, E. conclusion over this matter. I shall say no more except Hamilton of Epsom, L. Paisley of St George’s, B. thank all those who have taken part. Hanham, B. Palmer, L. 865 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 866

Palumbo, L. Skelmersdale, L. Rennard, L. Tomlinson, L. Pannick, L. Skidelsky, L. Richard, L. Tope, L. Park of Monmouth, B. Slim, V. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Tordoff, L. Patten, L. Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Tunnicliffe, L. Pearson of Rannoch, L. Stair, E. Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L. Turner of Camden, B. Pendry, L. Sterling of Plaistow, L. Rooker, L. Tyler, L. Pilkington of Oxenford, L. Stevens of Ludgate, L. Rosser, L. Wall of New Barnet, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Stewartby, L. Rowlands, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Rawlings, B. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Warnock, B. Reay, L. Sawyer, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Strathclyde, L. Rees-Mogg, L. Sewel, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Swinfen, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Simon, V. Watson of Richmond, L. Rogan, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. Tebbit, L. Snape, L. West of Spithead, L. Ryder of Wensum, L. Thomas of Swynnerton, L. Soley, L. Whitaker, B. Sainsbury of Preston Tombs, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Whitty, L. Candover, L. Trimble, L. Temple-Morris, L. Wilkins, B. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Trumpington, B. Teverson, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Sandwich, E. Verma, B. Thomas of Winchester, B. Young of Hornsey, B. Seccombe, B. Vinson, L. Thornton, B. Young of Norwood Green, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Waddington, L. [Teller] Selsdon, L. Wade of Chorlton, L. Sharples, B. Walker of Aldringham, L. 8.06 pm Shaw of Northstead, L. Walpole, L. Shephard of Northwold, B. Williamson of Horton, L. Motion D Shrewsbury, E. Winchester, Bp. Moved by Lord Tunnicliffe NOT CONTENTS That this House do not insist on its Amendment Adams of Craigielea, B. Harrison, L. 66 to which the Commons have disagreed and do Addington, L. Hart of Chilton, L. agree with the Commons in their Amendment 66A Adonis, L. Haskel, L. in lieu thereof. Andrews, B. Haworth, L. The Commons disagree to Lords Amendment No. 66, but propose Archer of Sandwell, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Amendment 66A in lieu- Ashdown of Norton-sub- Hollis of Heigham, B. 66A: Page 63, line 35, at end insert- Hamdon, L. Howarth of Breckland, B. Bach, L. Howells of St. Davids, B. “Detention of persons under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000 Barker, B. Hoyle, L. (1) Section 36 of the Terrorism Act 2006 (c. 11) (review of Bassam of Brighton, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. terrorism legislation) is amended in accordance with subsections (2) [Teller] Janner of Braunstone, L. and (3). Berkeley, L. Jay of Ewelme, L. (2) After subsection (2) insert- Billingham, B. Jones, L. “(2A) A review under subsection (2) may, in particular, consider Bilston, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. whether- Bradley, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Brett, L. King of West Bromwich, L. (a) the requirements imposed by or under Part 1 or 2, or Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Kinnock, L. paragraph 37, of Schedule 8 to the Terrorism Act 2000 Campbell of Surbiton, B. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. (detention of suspected terrorists), and Campbell-Savours, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. (b) the requirements imposed by any relevant code of practice Christopher, L. Lea of Crondall, L. under section 66 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Clark of Windermere, L. Linklater of Butterstone, B. Act 1984 or Article 65 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Clinton-Davis, L. Lipsey, L. (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 (S.I. 1989/1341 (N.I. 12)), Crawley, B. McDonagh, B. have been complied with in relation to persons detained under Cunningham of Felling, L. Macdonald of Tradeston, L. section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000 pursuant to a warrant of Davidson of Glen Clova, L. McIntosh of Haringey, L. further detention issued under Part 3 of Schedule 8 to that Act.” Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller] McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Desai, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. (3) In subsection (3) for “That person” substitute “The person Drayson, L. McKenzie of Luton, L. appointed under subsection (1)”. Dubs, L. Maclennan of Rogart, L. (4) Section 51 of the Police Reform Act 2002 (c. 30) (independent Dykes, L. McNally, L. custody visitors for places of detention) is amended in accordance Elder, L. Mar and Kellie, E. with subsections (5) to (7). Elystan-Morgan, L. Massey of Darwen, B. (5) After subsection (1) insert- Evans of Watford, L. Maxton, L. “(1A) Every police authority must ensure- Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Meacher, B. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Miller of Chilthorne Domer, (a) that the arrangements made by it require independent Filkin, L. B. custody visitors to prepare and submit to it a report of Gale, B. Moonie, L. any visit made under the arrangements to a suspected Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Morgan, L. terrorist detainee, and Golding, B. Morgan of Drefelin, B. (b) that a copy of any report submitted under paragraph (a) Goudie, B. Morris of Handsworth, L. is given to the person appointed under section 36(1) of Gould of Potternewton, B. Murphy, B. the Terrorism Act 2006 (independent reviewer of Grabiner, L. Newby, L. terrorism legislation).” Grantchester, L. Norton of Louth, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Patel, L. (6) In subsection (3), after paragraph (b) insert- Grocott, L. Prosser, B. “(ba) in relation to suspected terrorist detainees, to listen to Hamwee, B. Quin, B. the audio recordings and view the video recordings (with Harries of Pentregarth, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. or without sound) of interviews with those detainees Harris of Haringey, L. Rea, L. which have taken place during their detention there and Harris of Richmond, B. Redesdale, L. which were conducted by a constable;”. 867 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Coroners and Justice Bill 868

(7) After that subsection insert- meet the required deadlines. The application for a “(3A) The arrangements may include provision for access to WFD must include detailed grounds that set out relevant the whole or part of an audio or video recording of an interview considerations, including details of interviews, forensic of the kind mentioned in subsection (3)(ba) to be denied to examination and any financial investigation. All independent custody visitors if- applications to extend the detention period beyond (a) it appears to an officer of or above the rank of inspector 14 days need to be considered and made by the CPS. If that there are grounds for denying access at the time it is requested; the CPS considers that there are no grounds for making the application, it will not be made. When granting a (b) the grounds are grounds specified for the purposes of paragraph (a) in the arrangements; and warrant for further detention, the judge must be satisfied that the further detention is necessary to obtain relevant (c) the procedural requirements imposed by the arrangements in relation to a denial of access to such evidence by questioning the suspect or otherwise, or to recordings are complied with. preserve relevant evidence, or pending the result of an (3B) Grounds are not to be specified in any arrangements for examination or analysis of any relevant evidence, and the purposes of subsection (3A)(a) unless they are grounds for the that the investigation is being conducted diligently and time being set out for the purposes of this subsection in the code expeditiously. of practice issued by the Secretary of State under subsection (6).” (8) For subsection (10) substitute- In April this year, Her Majesty’s Crown Prosecution “(10) In this section- Service Inspectorate reported on the CPS’s counterterrorism division. As part of the report it “detainee”, in relation to arrangements made under this section, means a person detained in a police examined 12 cases from a sample where there had station in the police area of the police authority; been pre-charge detention. In all cases the inspectorate “suspected terrorist detainee” means a detainee detained was satisfied that there was evidence on the file that under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000.”” pre-charge detention had been properly monitored and reviewed. Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, Amendment 66 seeks While it is clearly regrettable that the other place to establish an independent commissioner for terrorist did not have the opportunity to debate the amendment suspects. As my noble friend Lord Brett indicated in on Monday of this week, it is none the less clear from Committee, we are concerned that the establishment the vote that the other place shares our concerns, given of such a commissioner would have a detrimental that it voted by a majority of 223 to disagree with the effect on the efficient and effective conduct of terrorist Lords amendment. The other place has, however, offered investigations. Such investigations are fast-moving and an amendment in lieu, which I commend to this House. having to accommodate a commissioner would cause That amendment provides for enhanced independent delays to extension hearings and could be used by scrutiny and further guarantee of the treatment of suspects to hamper investigations. terrorist detainees. The period between the arrest and charging of a terrorist suspect is one of considerable pressure. It is The amendment in lieu proposes two changes to possible that suspects could use the role of commissioner bolster the existing arrangements. First, it seeks to to manipulate and control the time available for an give statutory force to the independent reviewer of investigation by requesting private interviews or by insisting terrorism legislation’s ability to review and report on on the commissioner’s presence in police interviews. It the treatment of persons detained under a warrant of is also possible that suspects could be detained at further detention under the Terrorism Act 2000—that different locations throughout the country—for example, is, broadly speaking, persons detained beyond 48 hours in Manchester, Bristol and London. The length of from the time of their arrest. The reviewer may dedicate time that could elapse before a commissioner was able a specific section of his annual report to the treatment to visit all detainees would be unacceptable. These of terrorist suspects detained for these extended periods. concerns are shared by the police, the CPS and, in The report may cover whether Parts 1 and 2 of Schedule 8 Scotland, the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal to the Terrorism Act 2000 are compliant with the Service. PACE codes of practice, which deal with the treatment I note the concern of the noble and learned Lord, of detained persons and the review of their detention Lord Lloyd, about the need for further balanced scrutiny by the police. In order to reinforce this legislative of the pre-charge detention process for terrorist suspects. change, the Home Secretary will write to the noble However, this process is already rigorous. At present, Lord, Lord Carlile, making it clear that he is able to those arrested can be detained for 48 hours, after visit any detention facility where terrorist suspects are which the police or CPS must apply to a judicial held and observe police interviews in real time or view authority for a warrant for further detention—a WFD. or listen to interview tapes. He may also attend any This judicial authority is to be a designated district extension hearing that he chooses, but he would not judge when the person has been detained for less than have a role in the actual hearing other than as observer. 14 days and a High Court judge thereafter. Applications Secondly, the amendment in lieu will extend the for WFDs are for a maximum period of seven days at role of independent custody visitors under Section 51 a time. If a period of longer than seven days is of the Police Reform Act 2002. Independent custody required, up to a maximum of 28 days, further applications visitors will be allowed to view or listen to recordings by the police or prosecutor must be made before the of any police interviews with the suspect. They will expiration of each seven-day period. also be required to provide a report on their findings Each application for a WFD requires detailed to the relevant police authority, which will pass this on preparation. Preparing it is time-consuming and places to the independent reviewer. Custody visitors will be significant pressure on the police and prosecutors to required to attend specialist training prior to starting 869 Coroners and Justice Bill[LORDS] Coroners and Justice Bill 870

[LORD TUNNICLIFFE] suspects? Will his office be given any additional support their extended duties and will need to be appropriately for this task? Will he be able to feed in to detention security-cleared. Amendments will be made to the hearings, or will this be only an ex post facto task? national code of practice for custody visitors to reflect That is an important point. Is this going to be a living this and the increase in their responsibility. part of the procedure or is it simply going to be a case I believe that the approach set out in the Government’s of reviewing in order to comment on, and possibly amendment and in the letter to be sent to the noble find fault with, what has previously happened? That Lord, Lord Carlile, will provide the additional protection relates very much to the findings of the Joint Committee for terrorist suspects that provided the motivation on Human Rights. behind Amendment 66, while not having a detrimental My second set of questions is about the role of effect on terrorism investigations. I beg to move. independent custody visitors, who have been put forward as important people in this scenario. First, will police 8.15 pm authorities be required to prioritise terrorist suspects Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, I find it disappointing for visits by independent custody visitors? Will this that the Government’s objection to the notion of having actually happen? a special commissioner for terrorist suspects is based Secondly, will there be additional training and guidance on the idea that it would somehow obstruct speedy or for custody visitors in preparation for this task? These fair process. This idea is part of UK experience; it has are not things that custody visitors normally do. Related been in operation in Northern Ireland. Why is it considered to this, is it the intention that there will be a specialised wholly unsuitable to be deployed in current circumstances? cadre of custody visitors? I come back to the specialist I find this very difficult to understand. nature of the task. This is why it seems to us that an It is a great pity that the Government are not independent commissioner would be so much better. prepared to accept that the reassurance that such a Thirdly, what are the grounds for denying independent process and such an individual would provide is suitable custody visitors access to records of interviews? I am to our current circumstances. After all, we may have to absolutely prepared to believe that there would be live with this for a long time. When we debated the legitimate grounds, but it would be helpful to know proposal, your Lordships’ House was not convinced how those are defined by the Government, because the that extending the role of independent custody visitors amendment does not specify what these grounds are or that of the statutory reviewer of terrorism legislation, now or might be in the future. Without some specificity, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, was a sufficient step. I do it is obviously possible to restrict the role of custody not at all suggest that these people do not do a very visitors so that they could not report fully on the important job—they most certainly do—but it is a detention of terrorist suspects. That is an important great pity that the Government have taken the stance point in practical terms. that they have. Related to that is my fourth point. Can the Minister We need to enlighten ourselves on certain issues confirm that in cases where the independent custody regarding how the system that the Government are visitor had concerns after having heard records of proposing will operate. The proposal does not satisfy interviews and/or having spoken to the suspects, he the point that is constantly made by the Joint Committee would then be able to communicate them to the judge on Human Rights, which is that the current arrangements before a detention hearing? This comes back to whether for judicial authorisation of extended pre-charge detention this is an academic, ex post facto activity or whether it do not satisfy the requirements of either habeas corpus is intended to apply safeguards within the procedure or Article 5 of the European Convention on Human as a living procedure. That is very important and it Rights. I do not believe that the Government’s ideas will be a requirement if this is to be a real safeguard. will meet those requirements. Fifthly, how will the Government act on the visits However, in the spirit of wanting to know how this and reports of independent custody visitors? Even might operate, I ask the following probing questions. now, some of the recommendations of the noble Lord, The first relates to the role of the statutory reviewer of Lord Carlile, are ignored. Therefore, what hope will terrorism legislation. If the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, custody visitors have of being able to influence the has always had—as appears to be the case—the power operation of Section 41 and the related codes of to review the operation of Section 41 of the Terrorism practice? Act 2000 and the related codes, can the Minister I worry that the Government’s proposals will neither confirm whether he has attended any detention hearings achieve comprehensive monitoring of the detention of so far and whether he has reported on them? If he has terrorist suspects nor improve the procedures of detention not done so, why is that the case and why did not the hearings. Therefore, the Minister’s response to my Government ask him so to do? points will be very important as regards how effective Secondly, I am sure that the Minister will agree that and acceptable the Government’s ideas are as an alternative the noble Lord already has a significant amount of to what we think should be the case. I very much look work to do in relation to the operation of other parts forward to the Minister’s explanation of how the of terrorism legislation. It would be helpful to know proposals will work in practice. I should add that, whether discussion has taken place with him about should the Conservative Party enter office, we will how much extra time looking at the whole position of want to revisit this topic. the detention of terrorist suspects will involve. Thirdly, it would be helpful to know how it is Lord Pannick: My Lords, I share the regrets and intended that the noble Lord will go about his work. Is concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville- it the intention that he will visit the majority of terrorist Jones. Of course, the purpose of the new clause agreed 871 Coroners and Justice Bill[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 872 to by this House is to ensure that, where the police and held in police stations throughout the country, apply for an extension of the period of detention for a including in London, Devon, Manchester,Kent, Heathrow, terrorist suspect, the judge has information that may Norfolk, Nottingham, Surrey, Buckinghamshire and assist him or her in understanding any weaknesses in the West Midlands. With so many forces potentially the police case for an extension of custody. That is a involved, it would be harder to maintain levels of vital matter. co-operationandcommunication.Ultimately,thecommission I thank the Minister for the steps taken by the in Northern Ireland was no longer deemed necessary Government to address these concerns to some extent, because of the significant overlap with the work of as approved by this House. However, I seek two assurances other bodies charged with inspecting and investigating from the Minister; I know that they are matters that pre-charge detention conditions—for example, the work also cause concern to the noble and learned Lord, carried out by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, lay visitors Lord Lloyd of Berwick. and the HMIC. In fact, I believe that the commission First, can the noble Lord confirm that, because the was abandoned in 2005. independent custody visitors are positively vetted, it is I turn to the other points raised by the noble not the intention of proposed new subsection (3A) to Baroness. There will be a specialist coroner. He will deny them access to the audio or video recording receive specialist training and will of course be simply because it contains information whose publication appropriately security-cleared. On the JCHR, we are would be damaging to national security? Can the sensitive to the Joint Committee’s views, but the Minister assure the House that subsection (3A) is Government take the view that the process is rigorous, simply intended to cover a much more specific and for the reasons that I set out earlier. much narrower set of circumstances—that is, where With regard to the extent to which the noble Lord, the recordings would disclose an ongoing police operation Lord Carlile, will be involved in this work and the that it would be damaging to reveal at that time? amount of time that he will have to spend on it, it is The second matter on which I seek an assurance unlikely that he will attend more than the odd extension has been mentioned by the noble Baroness. It concerns hearing, because he has no role in the process. As I the vital matter of communication of information said, his role is ex post facto; none the less, it is a from the independent custody visitor to the judge. Can powerful role. He is likely to limit his detention centre the Minister assure the House that a procedure will be visits to the most serious investigations. devised to ensure that, after the independent custody The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, has been consulted visitor has seen and heard the recordings, he will be about the amendment. He already has a statutory role able to communicate his views to the judge, who will in relation to the operation of the Terrorism Act 2000, decide on whether there should be an extension of which includes reporting annually on the operation of custody? pre-charge detention. Although he has tended not to get involved in individual cases, his role does not Lord Tunnicliffe: My Lords, perhaps I may first preclude him from doing so. Indeed, he has reported address the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, on the individual cases of those involved in Operation who explained rather better than I can from my notes Pathway. the basis of his first point. Proposed new subsection (3A) I hope that, with those explanations, the House will is meant to relate to the narrow point of operational be able to support the Motion. police matters. Because the ICVs will be appropriately cleared, they will normally be able to listen to recordings Motion D agreed. and so on. The second, and I think key, point was made by the Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] noble Baroness. It concerns whether this is other than Commons Amendments an ex post facto exercise. It is not and it would be wrong of me to try to use words that gave comfort in 8.30 pm that direction. We believe that the process will be powerful in monitoring whether the procedure has been carried out properly. Earlier, I gave the noble Motion on Amendments 1 to 3 Baroness various assurances about the inspectorate Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham looking at how this is done. I was asked whether the ICVs would have any input into the observations of That the House do agree with the Commons in the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. I do not think that this their Amendments 1 to 3. will be a simply academic process. I believe that the fact that the views of responsible persons will be The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, looked at carefully by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs will have an effect on maintaining standards. (Lord Davies of Oldham): My Lords, I shall speak also One of the most telling points made by the noble to Amendments 18, 19, 21 to 26 and 28. Baroness—I can see why it was quite attractive—concerned Amendment 1 to Clause 7 was agreed in the other theNorthernIrelandexperience.Theindependentcommission place to ensure that references to the Marine Management worked well in Northern Ireland because it was a small Organisation in regulations made under Section 4(B) jurisdiction with one place where subjects were held of the Sea Fish (Conservation) Act 1967 are linked to and with high levels of co-operation between the police the exercise of the MMO’s functions, rather than to and the commission. On the mainland, however, a geographical area. Amendment 2 to Clause 21(4) ensures significant number of terrorist suspects have been arrested that Schedule 15 to the Deregulation and Contracting 873 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 874

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] of building unintended consequences into a system Out Act 1994, which concerns restrictions on the that already works well. Briefly, Section 28 of the disclosure of information, applies to a body exercising Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 provides that the functions on behalf of the MMO. notification lapses after nine months unless it has been Amendments 21 and 22 are necessary consequential withdrawn or confirmed by Natural England. It was amendments that we missed in the earlier drafting and not clear in the Bill’s original drafting whether this correct the definition of the gas importation and deadline also applied to notifications that had been storage zone in Section 35 of the Energy Act 2008, called in by the Secretary of State. Amendment 25 which has been invalidated by the amendment made therefore makes it clear that the deadline will be to Section 1(5) of the Energy Act by paragraph 5 of disapplied in any case where the Secretary of State has Schedule 4 to the Bill. Amendment 23 to Schedule 4 used his power of direction to call in a notification. was agreed in the other place to remove provisions Finally, Amendments 26 and 28 were agreed in the amending the British Fishery Limits Act 1976 to take other place to correct an omission from our original account of the creation of the Welsh zone. These list of salmon and freshwater fisheries legislation to be provisions are no longer necessary as the required repealed. The amendments repeal Section 22 of the changes will be achieved by the transfer of functions Salmon and Freshwater Fisheries Act 1975, as this is order which is to be made under Clause 43 transferring now redundant. Section 22 has also become redundant fisheries functions in the Welsh zone to Welsh Ministers. as a tool in the Environment Agency’s fight against poaching and the subsequent sale of illegally caught As we turn to the amendments to Part 3 made in fish. The agency has already been given more flexible the other place—Amendments 3, 18, 19 and 24—I powers in the Salmon Act 1986 which apply throughout take this opportunity to tell the House of recent the year and, following amendments we have made in developments on the subject of planning in the Scottish this Bill, will extend to the sale of eels, lamprey, smelt and English border areas, which is not an unimportant and freshwater fish in addition to salmon and sea issue. I note that the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, trout. is nodding assent. The House will recall that we debated The amendments are largely technical and how planning would operate in the Solway Firth. I am consequential, although one or two required a degree pleased to tell your Lordships that the Minister for the of explanation. I commend them to the House and Natural and Marine Environment and the Scottish beg to move. Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs have agreed a joint statement on marine planning in the areas bordering Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I think that England and Scotland. This statement makes clear your Lordships have had enough excitement for this our commitment to build on cross- border collaboration evening—perhaps the Minister is sailing in calmer already in place to enable a joined-up planning process waters than the Minister in the previous debate did. I across the borders. A copy of this statement will be thank him for his explanations. As he said, these are placed in the House Library. largely technical and consequential amendments. I am Amendment 24 to Schedule 5 is a missed consequential very pleased, as I am sure other noble Lords are, to amendment on the changes made to Schedule 5 at the hear of the agreements made with the devolved authorities Bill’s Report stage in this House. It clarifies that the to ensure that this applies to all the waters around the timetable set out by the policy authorities in the statement United Kingdom in a way that this House would wish. of public participation for the preparation of the It is perhaps a pattern for the future that augurs well marine policy statement must include time for carrying for joint working between Whitehall and the devolved out the appraisal of sustainability. Amendment 3 is authorities. I am very pleased that the Minister has also consequential on changes made to the Bill in this been able to report on the matter to the House this House, which added a subsection to place a duty on a evening marine plan authority to seek to ensure that a marine plan or marine plans are prepared for the whole of the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I think that marine planning region where an MPS governs marine in an earlier life I moved an amendment that had some planning for that region. However, some adjustment relation to Solway Firth, recognising that anything to the drafting was required to ensure that the provision that happens on the Scottish side inevitably must have would work as intended by this House. implications on the English side and vice versa. Having been born less than a mile as the crow flies from the Amendments 18 and 19 were made in the other Solway Firth, I am well aware of how integrated the place to provide for early commencement of certain ecosystem is. This agreement is welcome and shows provisions in Part 3 referring to marine planning. that where there is good will and a willingness to reach These provisions relate to the preparation and publication agreement, agreement can be reached. Perhaps the of a statement of public participation for the involvement Minister can also confirm that the understanding also of interested persons in development of the marine extends to the east side of the border, to the estuary of policy statement and will enable the Government to the Tweed, where there might be implications for make early progress following Royal Assent. activities offshore of the Scottish borders coast and Amendment 25 concerns an issue involving also of the coast of north Northumberland. Schedule 13, which includes a power for the Secretary of State to call in the notification of a site of special Lord Greaves: My Lords, we meet this evening to scientific interest, which includes land lying below look again at the Marine and Coastal Access Bill with mean low-water mark. Concerns were raised in another a certain feeling of nostalgia. Nostalgia is a good place that there was a risk resulting from this provision thing only if it does not last very long. We shall be 875 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][11 NOVEMBER 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 876 waving this Bill through on its way to becoming an other parts of the United Kingdom. I want to reassure Act very soon now with a great deal of support and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that we have concentrated without much ado. on the Solway Firth for reasons that he knows. That is I have two points. First, I congratulate the Government why the first basis of the agreement is the Solway on accepting the amendment. It was the only hostile Firth. However, I am cognisant of the fact that there amendment accepted during passage of the Bill, although are other border areas and border waters between we did persuade the Government to make many changes England and Scotland. I am able to assure him that and improvements in all sorts of ways on the marine work will progress on that and in due course we will planning regions. We also persuaded them of the have a constructive joint statement on the Solway necessity and desirability of ensuring that marine planning Firth. covers the whole of an area once the marine planning The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is right to point out statement is in place. The Government should be that a great deal of work needs to be done in the congratulated on seeing the sense of that and evolution of policy, but we are talking about the Bill as understanding that the amount of detail that the plans it now stands. These amendments largely give effect to will cover, and the way in which they will cover different the positions taken up in the other place and in this parts of the region, will vary enormously. Nevertheless, House. He is right that the Government listened to the principle of the planning system which will now points about the overall planning position. apply to the marine environment is that it should be As regards the Welsh situation, my comments related comprehensive. The Government deserve some largely to the transfer of functions. I wanted them to congratulation on tidying it up to make sure that it is emphasise that we are working in close association watertight—if that is the right word to use. with the Welsh Assembly, underpinning the Bill My other comment is on the statement of public throughout. I accept entirely the point made by the participation for the marine policy statement and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, because Scotland is addressing Government’s obvious intention and wish to get on these issues separately and making its decisions. There with it as quickly as possible by bringing the deadline is a necessity for a joint statement on the estuaries. forward to the date of Royal Assent. On Monday, we However, Wales is different because we have been had the first of the new national policy statements working on its position throughout the Bill. I want to under the Planning Act 2008, and a Statement was assure the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, that he did not repeated in this House about the publication of the miss anything with regard to these amendments. They draft policy statements for energy and the results of are merely consequential, following the policy decision draft policy statements for ports. I want to refer briefly involved in the Bill which this House has agreed. The to the many debates we had during the passage of the other place has also offered its contributions on that marine and planning legislation about the way in matter and, accordingly, I commend the Motion. which the national and marine policy statements will dovetail and have to be reconciled. The Statement Motion agreed. made and the contents of the overarching national policy statement on energy leave quite a few worries 8.45 pm that, in practice, the marine policy statement will follow on from those documents and will simply repeat in another document what they say. We are concerned Motion on Amendment 4 that the publication of the marine policy statement Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham will not be as robust and independent as we had hoped it would be. That the House do agree with the Commons in Those concerns are for the future however. As their Amendment 4. regards these amendments, we are very happy to support them. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this is an important amendment. I want to preface my introduction by Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I am pleased saying that there has been considerable comment in that agreement has been achieved with the Welsh the Commons about the extent to which this House Assembly for close co-operation. Unfortunately, I was played a full part in the scrutiny of the Bill. We had the walking through the door to the Chamber just as the benefit of the Joint Committee on pre-legislative scrutiny, Minister had started speaking. I heard him refer to but when this House got down to the real task of Wales and I apologise for not picking up everything he examining the measures before us there was real and said. Perhaps he could therefore enlighten me. Various constructive scrutiny. Our colleagues in the other place Bills have transferred many functions to Welsh Ministers. were appreciative of the work done at this end. It was I am wondering whether in the case of the marine Bill, at times suggested that our debates had been somewhat that will be done on a one-off basis rather than protracted, and I remember that at times 11 days in spending a considerable time from month to month Committee seemed rather protracted and that one or transferring various parts of it to Welsh Ministers. two contributions may have been a little lengthier than they needed to be. However, we presented to the other Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to House a Bill that had been carefully scrutinised and all noble Lords for their contribution to this short that assisted their deliberations and made them more debate on what I regard as largely technical issues. I succinct. It helps us in considering their amendments appreciated the comments made by the noble Lord, because they are focused on issues that we considered Lord Taylor, on the general issues before we moved to fully and their views are of the greatest moment. 877 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 878

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] I hope that the House will be reassured by the There was considerable debate about the relationship associated amendment, Amendment 17, to Clause 310(7). between marine conservation and commercial fishing. This ensures that the power will be exercised by means of We all know the importance of that debate. I know a statutory instrument subject to affirmative resolution. that it is several months since we were at full tilt on the Clearly, that power is important, and should therefore issues, but we gave them much consideration. This be exercised only through the affirmative resolution area was one on which the other place focused and procedure, after being considered by both Houses. It played a significant part in considering. The Government is important that the exercise of that power is subject amended the Bill to future-proof it in anticipation of to debate in both Houses because its effect would be reform of the common fisheries policy. Of course we to amend primary legislation to expand the scope of need to do that. I commend Amendment 4 and what is criminal activity. That mechanism guarantees Amendment 17, to which I am also speaking, because that the determination of what is criminal activity, that is their purpose. The principal amendment adds a which is of course more usually a matter for new subsection (4A) after Clause 141(4). The new primary legislation, will be done only with proper provision gives a power to the Secretary of State to parliamentary scrutiny both in the other place and in restrict or remove the sea fisheries defence in Clause 141(4). this House. We cannot at present remove the sea fishing defence I hope the House will recognise that we have been because to do so would leave us in clear breach of our concerned to meet the necessary future flexibility European obligations under the common fisheries against changes in the common fisheries policy to policy. However, we wish stronger recognition of our which future Governments are bound to be committed, environmental objectives to emerge from the forthcoming in circumstances where we all know why the common reform of the common fisheries policy. The amendment fisheries policy will need changes. I hope it will be sets us up to be able to take advantage of that as and recognised that we are seeking flexibility, but flexibility when it occurs. It gives us the necessary flexibility to governed by the affirmative resolution procedure, so deal with potential changes to the common fisheries that any changes effected will be considered by both policy. The amendment enables us to restrict or remove Houses of Parliament. Accordingly, I beg to move. the sea fishing defence. An important feature is that it is a one-way ratchet. Once restricted, we could not Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I join the then broaden the defence again. Minister in our slightly self-congratulatory mood over The Secretary of State, who is responsible on behalf the success of this House in its scrutiny of the Bill. It of the UK for negotiations in Europe on fisheries matters, has certainly strengthened the Bill and shown the will exercise the power. However, as the Parliamentary House at its scrutinising best, notwithstanding the Under-Secretary of State said at Report in the Commons, pre-legislative scrutiny that also took place. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, was making his “any exercise of the new power would be made in close consultation comments with a certain amount of pride. I guess it is with Scottish and Welsh Ministers, the industry, the MMO, inshore fisheries and conservation authorities and many others”.— a campaign medal that most of us will remember. [Official Report, Commons, 26/10/09; col. 113.] Lord Greaves: Irony, my Lords. The 13th report of Session 2008-09 from the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of this Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Irony indeed, my Lords. House highlighted the amendment so that the House The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has a strong suit in might seek the Government’s explanation for the irony. I shall stick to the plain narrative and thank my delegation of a power to remove or restrict a statutory noble friends the Duke of Montrose and Lord Cathcart defence to a criminal offence. I acknowledge that it is for their support in this scrutiny, as indeed I thank the unusual to take a power to remove a defence at a Back Benches which have been behind me. It is appropriate future date, but the circumstances we find ourselves in to mention my late friend Lord Kingsland’s work on are unusual. There are certain instances where criminal the Bill. He was at his very best in probing, searching offences have been created through secondary legislation, out and focusing all our minds on the relevant issues. I not least in implementing European legislation. think that he would have had a bit of fun with this The Government have considered the options available amendment, because it is not usual for this House to to address the concerns that have been raised in the be much in favour of enabling powers. The Minister debate. We need a flexible mechanism that allows us to has been cautious in the way in which he has presented deal with the unpredictable outcomes of the next and his case for these powers. However, the success of this future reforms of the common fisheries policy. We marine conservation legislation cannot allow for damage need that flexibility. We believe that the amendment is to be done to the marine environment and a defence the most straightforward way to ensure that we can continued purely on the grounds of precedent. It may refine the defence following any reform, and meet the well be that this is the best solution for dealing with concerns that have been raised. The alternative would this matter when the common fisheries policy is reformed. be no amendment to the Bill and the necessity to use When does the Minister think that that might be? future primary legislation to restrict or remove the sea How long will this clause be there to be used and how fisheries defence. It is unclear whether and when such long will the Marine and Coastal Access Act, as it will an opportunity might arise. Of course, we are quite become, have to operate while tolerating the fishing clear as to when any opportunity for such primary defence? I would be grateful for his opinion on this legislation would occur, so it is prudent that we build matter, although I understand that he can never be into this Bill the necessary flexibility to take account certain in his assessment. I think that I have said of changes to the common fisheries policy. enough on the issue. 879 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][11 NOVEMBER 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 880

Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, one part of people are doing that, however, I repeat my thanks to the scrutiny that we did on this Bill in Committee and everyone. If I have any pride, it is for the team of on Report was to ask the Government the extent to people behind me on these Benches and for their which non-UK-registered fishing vessels could be subject expertise, which was superb. We all did a good job on to prosecution if their fishing activities caused damage the Bill. to the marine environment. The noble Lord, Lord However, I am reminded of what Lord Dahrendorf Taylor, is right that we should treat with some caution said to me several times at dinner in the Home Room. orders that effectively extend the criminal law. At the We were talking about improving the communications moment there is a defence that, as I understand it, would of the House, and about publicising what we do here. be open to UK-registered vessels that might otherwise He was totally against publicising what we did in this find themselves charged with doing damage. In any House. He thought that we really ought to keep it reform of the common fisheries policy, is it anticipated secret, because if people outside, particularly in the that non-UK-registered vessels doing the same damage House of Commons, ever discovered what we did, to the marine environment would be subject to the same they would put a stop to it very quickly. There may be criminal prosecution as UK-registered fishing vessels? some truth in that. The Duke of Montrose: My Lords, speaking as one There has been concern about Amendment 4. In a of the lame ducks in this House who could be removed sense, it is a pity that we did not have it as the Bill was at a stroke if the Government came forward with a going through this House so that we could scrutinise it new alignment for this Chamber, it is nice to get a pat properly, but we are where we are. I am advised by my on the back from the Minister for what we have been colleagues in the House of Commons that they think able to achieve. that the balance in the Bill between conservation and The government amendment is to Clause 141, which fishing is as good as it can be, even if it is not ideal for governs exceptions to offences. It currently contains everyone. Who am I to argue with them, at least on the defence for sea fishing, but in future that will be this issue? governed by this amendment. I was intrigued to see that Clause 66 is lifted almost bodily from Section 5 of Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful to the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985— the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, for his last two comments, although, in describing the types of vessels that might which were masterly. I will merely appropriate them as be used at sea, it rather quaintly omits hovercraft, but my principal defence for these amendments: that the perhaps they are not marine vessels. Part of the purpose wisdom of the Commons should prevail. They think when the 1985 Act was passed was that there would be that we have got the right balance in the Bill between a statutory instrument excepting a large number of the two very important concepts of marine conservation fairly common occurrences that happen when a ship is and the fishing industry, whose interests we need to at sea from the need for a licence. The statutory take very seriously indeed. instrument that was passed includes, in Schedules 7 I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said and 8, the deposit of fishing gear, whether fixed or about the late Lord Kingsland’s significant contribution not, and the deposit of fish or shellfish or parts to our deliberations in this area. We are all grateful for thereof in the course of a fishing operation. This has it; it helped to clarify our thinking. Whether it clarified the benefit, among other things, of giving specific that thinking enough for conjecture about the future permission not just for fishing tackle but for bait, to be possible is a different matter altogether. I cannot which is a most necessary part of fishing. remember Lord Kingsland pushing the boat out too Chapter 2 of the Bill describes an array of exemptions far in that regard and therefore, remaining true to that for major activities, but will the Minister say whether tradition, I will not be too exposed in a prediction the Government will need another statutory instrument about the common fisheries policy. The noble Lord, with another set of exceptions, such as those in the Lord Taylor, invited me to consider when there would previous SI that enabled the prosecution of fishing, to be any reform and when we would thus be able to accompany this Bill? There is a fear that its early make adjustments to it. We shall press for reform, of application will be highly detrimental to fishing, which course, in particular with regard to conservation issues. a number of people regard as a traditional right. However, I might almost be forgiven for saying that we I was most intrigued to hear the Minister describe have more fish to fry. We have many more serious issues the role of the amendment in changing the common to address in terms of the common fisheries policy. fisheries policy. If the current common fisheries policy I was asked when we are likely to see the outcome. prevents the removal of the fisheries defence, is there We all hope to see progress in the not too distant any guarantee that a new common fisheries policy will future, but I cannot be too precise on how successful allow us to remove the sea fishing defence on that we will be and in which terms. Indeed, I shall not date? Is this part of the Government’s approach and venture much further than what I have said already in measures to reform the common fisheries policy? these general remarks. However, what I am saying is this. We need to take account of the possibility or even 9pm the likelihood of change, and that is what this provision Lord Greaves: My Lords, I have a strong suspicion is all about. It creates a contingency framework where that the noble Duke will be here for as long as I we can act as and when we are successful and changes am—and the rest of us, probably. are made to the common fisheries policy. Before we sent the Bill to the Commons, we patted I want to be a little more definitive on one or other each other on the back and thanked everyone, so I do points. There is a timescale to the fisheries reform of not think we want to go too far into that again. If 2012, but while I do not doubt that revisions will take 881 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 882

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, when it comes place, I cannot venture to talk about their nature and to discussions within Europe, the Secretary of State is, extent. The House will recognise that I am bound to of course, acting on behalf of the whole United Kingdom. be shy of speaking too strongly in those terms. However, When it comes to dealing with individual transgressions, I can be a bit more definitive on the question of the that may well depend upon the circumstances in which noble Lord, Lord Wallace: will the offences apply to the transgression occurred. We would generally expect non-UK vessels? They certainly will once fisheries them to occur in waters in circumstances where the reform agrees that that should be the case. That, after Secretary of State would have the prime responsibility. all, is a cardinal point of reform of the common Even if aspects of the Secretary of State’s exercise of fisheries policy, so we can at least be confident about these powers were taken up by the other administrations, that. We are certainly confident enough to make it is under the powers invested in him that action contingency arrangements in the Bill to give effect to would be taken in an international situation. Where constructive positions once we have adopted— the fisheries policy is concerned we are, of course, talking about an international relationship. Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I am very The Secretary of State is responsible for the negotiations interested in what the Minister is saying. As regards on fisheries matters and he will exercise the powers, the powers of the Secretary of State in this amendment, but he would not exercise them other than in close given that there may be a delay in reforming the consultation with Scottish and Welsh Ministers and common fisheries policy, in his view will the application without having the industry on board and all the other of these powers produce any unintended consequences? interest groups concerned with this issue. After all, he For example, could they affect marine conservation would be acting in the name of the United Kingdom zones? in relation to international policy but, without being fully informed of the various interests involved, the Lord Davies of Oldham: I do not think so, my Secretary of State could not possibly fulfil his duty. Lords. It is an important amendment that was given Motion agreed. very serious consideration in the other place. Parliament will consider anything that derives from it by way of affirmative resolution orders, so the whole concept of Motion on Amendments 5 to 12 the amendment is to create the power but not to be Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham definitive in how it is exercised. We seek a power to use in terms of the common fisheries policy because we That the House do agree with the Commons in are unsure about its future. I was asked when the their Amendments 5 to 12. provision will start and how long it will last, given that the common fisheries policy is due to be reformed in Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, the House will 2012. We do not return to primary legislation that recall that in Part 6 of the Bill we replace the sea often, so the concept behind the provision is that it fisheries committees with inshore fisheries and should last for as long as it is valid and relevant. It conservation authorities in England. These will have a might be that it is relevant to more than one round of duty to manage sea fisheries sustainably, balancing revision of the common fisheries policy, although I socio-economic benefits with protection of the marine have no perspective on how frequently the policy is to environment. They will have more money, strength be changed in the future, and at this stage I would not and powers while retaining local involvement in decision- think anyone else in the House has either. Moreover, I making. do not know the nature of any such changes. But the We debated the Bill in Committee—noble Lords concept of the legislation before the House is that will instantly remember the date—on 16 March and these powers should be valid and used when appropriate tabled amendments in Committee and on Report to against any future development that might arise in make improvements to the provisions in various respects, relation to the common fisheries policy. I apologise including in relation to sustainable development and to noble Lords that I cannot be more definitive than IFCA membership. On 16 March, we debated the that. relationship between IFCAs and the Environment Agency, I appreciate what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, a key issue also considered by the Joint Committee, said about these important issues, which reflect the which was chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, concerns and anxieties of the Delegated Powers and who I am delighted to see in his place as we reach the Regulatory Reform Committee. We have looked at latter stages of the Bill. I set out that the Bill provides these matters with the greatest care. It goes without for IFCAs to lead on marine species management in saying that our colleagues in the other place were the inshore area, including in estuaries, while the concerned about the position, examined it thoroughly Environment Agency would lead on protection for and, as the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, expressed it, salmon, trout, other migratory species and freshwater reached the judgment that this is entirely appropriate. fish in estuaries and as far out as the six nautical mile It is principally on that basis, therefore, that I commend limit. the amendment to the House. 9.15 pm Baroness Byford: My Lords, it states clearly that it During discussion in the other place on 7 July, a is the Secretary of State. How does that affect the number of members raised concerns that the Bill did devolved authorities? Does he act on behalf of Scotland not provide sufficient flexibility to ensure fully joined-up and Wales? What is the position? inshore fisheries management, particularly in estuaries. 883 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][11 NOVEMBER 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 884

There was strong pressure for us to amend the Bill so prevention of further sub-delegation. The noble Lord that IFCA functions could be delegated to the and I are of one mind on this. We would look askance Environment Agency in particular, so that marine at the idea of additional sub-delegation, and that is fisheries in estuaries could be managed in the most why the Bill ensures that the Secretary of State stays joined-up way possible. A number of honourable very closely related to the action on this question of Members representing a range of constituencies expressed delegation of powers, which is right. Otherwise, the support for that greater flexibility.That was a considerable great danger that we have is the exercise of unaccountable pressure to which the Government were concerned to power, which I know that the noble Lord is anxious respond, which is why we have tabled the amendments. about. They provide the option for IFCA functions to be The review can be undertaken by the Secretary of delegated to the Environment Agency and neighbouring State every five years, but it can be done at any IFCAs. An order-making power was also provided to time—for example as a result of representations from add to the list of eligible bodies so as to enable the IFCA or eligible body or from other interested delegation to be made to other named public bodies. parties. The original approval from the Secretary of Bodies can also be removed from the list. State can waive the requirement for a review to occur The Bill already provides for MMO functions to be at least every five years. So built into this, we have a delegated to relevant bodies, including IFCAs, and proper, responsible position for the Secretary of State our amendments provide a very similar model of in relation to these issues. delegation for IFCA functions. Key elements of the We do not have particular expectations about where amendments are that delegation of functions can occur delegation agreements will be used. Because I have not from an IFCA to an eligible body in relation to any gone too far down that path, I was struggling with the specified areas of an IFC district; and any delegation point made by the noble Lord. It will be looked at in would require the Secretary of State’s approval, and detail by IFCAs and the Environment Agency if the could only be carried out where there is agreement amendments are accepted. But the amendments will between the IFCA and the relevant body. Eligible offer a degree of flexibility and future-proofing in bodies include any neighbouring IFCA and the terms of development—for example to allow one IFCA Environment Agency. The Secretary of State could to manage across an estuary even where a local authority also, by order, add additional eligible public bodies boundary splits the estuary, or for the Environment that have a purpose or function connected with the Agency to manage all fisheries in upper estuaries inshore marine area. where marine species are insignificant. Those are areas of flexibility that we would all recognise the Bill ought Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I understood the Minister to provide for in the evolution of policy and practice. to say that it would be possible under the legislation as it stands for some of the functions of the MMO to be The Bill as amended will allow fisheries management delegated to the IFCA. Will an IFCA be able to to be carried out as flexibly and efficiently as possible delegate responsibilities that have been delegated to it? in inshore areas, particularly in estuaries. That was the Could there be two sets of delegations? subject of considerable debate in this House and it was also reflected in concerns in the other place. This will Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, that is a very be beneficial both to users of the inshore marine area interesting question. I am concerned about the next and to regulators, ensuring that fisheries and the wider stage down, which is what these amendments are inshore marine environment are managed as effectively concerned with—the functions properly allocated and as possible. carried out by IFCAs. The issue of delegation, which At House of Commons Report stage on 26 October, would be subject to the closest scrutiny, would mean there was support for the amendments from the that they would include the matter that the noble Lord honourable Member for Reading West, and from the has indicated. However, within that framework that honourable Member for Newbury, who said: would be done with some degree of caution, for obvious “IFCAs will not always be best placed to carry out certain reasons. After all, one destroys the concept of functions, some of which could be managed by other organisations responsibility if one takes delegation too far. We are or by agencies that have more relevant knowledge or are simply talking about limited positions in which the functions better placed to perform them. It is important that IFCAs are of an MMO are delegated to an IFCA. To take that flexible and are able to delegate their functions where necessary or on down to another body would be exceptional rather sensible, and we therefore support the proposed measures”.—[Official than the norm. I shall think a little further about Report, Commons, 26/10/09; col. 36.] whether it is actually possible, if the noble Lord will That is the view of two Members of Parliament thinking give me a moment or two, as it is a most interesting about the issues very seriously and recognising the question. degree of flexibility that we ought to build into the The amendments include a requirement for the Bill. Secretary of State to review all agreements at least Before the noble Lord rises to his feet with regard every five years. The arrangements would be subject to to Wales, let me say that the issues have also been regular reconsideration and would give him the power considered there. There was discussion of the amendment to cancel agreements, if appropriate, in light of such of the honourable Member for Brecon and Radnorshire reviews. We are talking about a careful process of to extend the option of delegation to Welsh Ministers. delegation. If the noble Lord’s purpose with his question My colleague, the Minister in the other place, the was to express anxiety about the dangers of delegation, honourable Member for Ogmore, explained that Welsh we have defensive provisions in these terms. The delegation Ministers already have the power to make legislation would be set with conditions, and there could be a on behalf of the Environment Agency and to delegate 885 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 886

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] it means that I am not able to consult him in his functions to the agency. The intention behind the wisdom about aspects of the Bill for which he was amendment seems sensible, but raising the matter so largely responsible and which I have inherited. However, late in the process, without the scope to be clear about I remember that he assured the House that if the how accountability of the functions could be ascertained, Government, does not seem right. The Bill can and does deliver to “believed that primary legislation was necessary, we would look Welsh Ministers the powers that they requested, and to introducing it during the passage of the Bill, probably in they are content with the Bill as drafted. Therefore, I another place”.—[Official Report, 19/5/09; col. 1354.] hope that I give the noble Lord reassurance on that. What was exercising the noble Baronesses, to whom The amendment has been carefully considered in my noble friend Lord Hunt was responding, was the the other place. It is a response to considerable pressure problems facing the shellfish industry as a consequence from there, and Wales is included too. Accordingly, I of a long-running court action surrounding the rights beg to move. of shellfish owners and landowners where developments are concerned. Our ability to secure a long-term sustainable future for the industry was being hampered Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, we agree with by the provisions of the Sea Fisheries (Shellfish) Act 1967. the Government’s introduction of these amendments in the sense that they provide for managerial flexibility. I am pleased to report that we are now seeking the We accept totally the Minister’s arguments for flexibility, agreement of this House to this package of amendments, which may well serve the interests of the effective which, taken together, will deliver the changes to primary conservation of fisheries and the natural habitat. On legislation that should secure the future of this important first reading these amendments, I was concerned about industry. We have had extensive meetings with interested the questions of control and accountability. When parties, including the Shellfish Association of Great powers are delegated, or matters are delegated to Britain and the Crown Estate, which was the other other bodies, does the delegating body retain some great actor in this area of considerable difficulty. The overall supervisory role? From what the Minister says, Government are able to state, through the amendments, it is clear that the Secretary of State will make sure that we have delivered on our commitment. We have that these delegated functions will not tolerate tabled amendments that were considered in Commons underperformance in any way. That is important to Committee and won the approval of the other place. emphasise, and I hope that the Minister will confirm Amendments may be grouped together for discussion, that that is the case. but can be considered separately at any stage by the House according to our proper procedures. However, I emphasise that it is necessary to look at these Lord Davies of Oldham: I am grateful to the noble amendments as a complete and balanced package. It is Lord, and I certainly want to confirm that most crucial that they are taken together, to allow us to start important point. I had hoped that I had made it granting shellfish orders again while recognising the explicit in my opening remarks. Perhaps I did not, and rights of landowners. the House must forgive me if I failed. I certainly agree entirely with the sentiments expressed by the noble Lord. 9.30 pm Over the summer, officials and the Minister worked Motion agreed. with the Shellfish Association of Great Britain, the representative body of the shellfish industry, as well as Motion on Amendments 13 to 16 with the wider shellfish industry and the Crown Estate, to ensure clarity on how the amendments would work Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham in practice and to ensure that they were not defective. That the House do agree with the Commons in On 13 September, the Minister met the Shellfish their Amendments 13 to 16. Association of Great Britain and the Crown Estate and was joined by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and by the honourable Member for Newbury. The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I beg to move Lord Greaves, would have liked to have been there but that the House do agree with the Commons in their was unable to attend. At the meeting, a record of Amendments 13 to 16. I shall also speak to which was sent on 16 October to all MPs and noble Amendment 27. These amendments relate to an issue Lords interested in the Bill—including the two noble that has exercised the House greatly—the shellfish Baronesses to whom I referred, who were so active on industry. In Committee and on Report, the noble the issue in the House when we considered these Baronesses, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer and matters—all sides agreed a way forward and indicated Lady Wilcox, spoke strongly and with considerable that they were prepared to accept the Bill. They committed force on this matter. to addressing their outstanding concerns outside the My noble friend Lord Hunt has now moved on to Bill through other means such as revised guidance other pastures. He is in the Ukraine today, but that notes. The Shellfish Association of Great Britain has does not mean that he will not be up near the Barents subsequently written to the Minister to confirm that Sea tomorrow or Tierra del Fuego in the middle of this is its position. next week. I cannot keep track of my noble friend’s The amendments that we have made are even-handed. extraordinary endeavours with regard to the preparations They remove an outdated and unnecessary procedure for the climate change conference in Copenhagen, but when considering new orders and provide the Secretary 887 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][11 NOVEMBER 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 888 of State with the power to grant new shellfish orders a realisation that common ground was worth pursuing. without obtaining Crown consent. Given that a number I do not wish to throw in any doubts on the success of of important orders are due to expire in the next few those negotiations but, in any ongoing discussions, do years and a number of potential orders are in the any points of dissent remain to be resolved? I, too, pay pipeline, the amendments are crucial for the long-term tribute to the Shellfish Association of Great Britain future of shellfish orders. The amendments also ensure and the Crown Estate for their part in these negotiations. that, when considering an application for a new shellfish Does the Minister wish to draw our attention to any order, the responsible Minister must have regard to the unresolved matters? power and duties of the Crown Estate, in recognition of its responsibilities and duties enshrined in law, Lord Davies of Oldham: I hesitate to say that every which are not faced by other landowners. “i” has been dotted and every “t” crossed. The two We have tabled a new clause—Amendment 16—which major parties involved have reached agreement on a grants the appropriate Minister the power to vary or significant difficulty. This has also been agreed to by revoke an order should it be appropriate to do so. The the House of Commons. Minor issues still need to be proposed system of variation does not give the Crown resolved through the notes for guidance, but they can Estate or other landowners a free hand to develop be, provided that the principles enshrined in these land covered by a shellfish order, but it creates a amendments become part of the legislation. The notes process for applications to be made to allow for the for guidance can then be worked on to deal with possibility of that land being developed, with a mechanism relatively minor matters. I can give the noble Lord the for compensation where this occurs. We have developed assurance that he seeks on that. guidance notes on the detailed operation of this process, which we have drawn up in consultation with the industry and landowners. This has ensured that all The Duke of Montrose: I was interested to hear the parties are clear about how the process will work. noble Lord say that matters will be resolved in the notes for guidance. I asked earlier whether the Government This package of amendments, which has the support have in mind any statutory instruments that will need of key stakeholders, offers an economically viable, to be added to the legislation. long-term future to the shellfish industry. It will allow Ministers to start granting new shellfish orders with safeguards for the industry and at the same time to Lord Davies of Oldham: That may be the case, but protect the rights of landowners, allowing an avenue we are considering primary legislation at this point. for them to develop their land during the lifetime of However, we hope that we will solve the issue through an order should they wish to do so. the notes for guidance. I can make no specific comment I place on record our thanks to the Shellfish Association on the need for a statutory instrument and would have of Great Britain and the Crown Estate for the constructive done so if one were envisaged. We hope that we have approach that they have taken during discussions on reached sufficient agreement on the crucial issues of the amendments over the summer and for recognising principle that will operate through the notes for guidance. the long-term benefits that they will bring for shellfisheries. Motion agreed. I should also place on record our thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, and the honourable Member for Newbury for taking time to attend that crucial meeting Motion on Amendments 17 to 19 held by my honourable friend the Member for Ogmore, Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham the Minister in the other place. This was a difficult area. We wrestled with the issue That the House do agree with the Commons in in this House and were able to identify how difficult it their Amendments 17 to 19. was without being able to solve the problems at that stage. Very constructive work has been done—I hasten Motion agreed. to add that I was not party to that work in any way, shape or form—by a Minister at the other end who worked assiduously, with the co-operation of the two Motion on Amendment 20 key parties. They deserve congratulations on the way Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham in which this process was carried out. Everyone who participated, including the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, That the House do agree with the Commons in has helped to resolve a real difficulty. These amendments their Amendment 20. bear witness to that outcome. Accordingly, I beg to move. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, this is a privilege amendment. Such amendments do not normally require Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The Minister is very great explanation. This amendment will remove the generous. I was pleased to attend that meeting and I privilege amendment made when the Bill moved to believe that these amendments, which cover an area of another place. As the House will be aware, the financial unresolved difficulty, add considerably to the Bill. To powers are restricted by the rights and privileges of introduce primary legislation in this area is a considerable the other place. As the Bill originated here and contains achievement and a tribute to the work of officials and financial provisions, a privilege amendment was added the Minister in another place, Mr Huw Irranca-Davies, to it before its introduction to the other place to who chaired that meeting with great skill. There could ensure that the financial privilege was not infringed. have been a lot of scope for conflict; instead, there was This amendment, therefore, is purely technical. It is 889 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][LORDS] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 890

[LORD DAVIES OF OLDHAM] I am astonished that we are not discussing coastal necessary to remove the privilege amendment, which access at all in Commons amendments, but perhaps it provided that nothing in the Bill should impose or is good that we are not. We now retire from the scene, vary any charge on the people or public funds. It is a though no doubt we will get statutory instruments to technicality and, as such, I beg to move. look at. The important thing is that the hard work Motion agreed. really starts now. It is not easy to produce well written and workable legislation of this complexity; it is very Motion on Amendments 21 to 28 difficult, but nothing like as difficult as the work which the people at all levels in all the different aspects Moved by Lord Davies of Oldham of the Bill will now have to do to put this into effect. That the House do agree with the Commons in In 10 years’ time, those of us who will, I hope, still their Amendments 21 to 28. be around—such as the noble Duke and me, perhaps—will look with great interest, and pride if it works. If it does not work, whichever Government is in power, no Lord Greenway: Perhaps the House would bear doubt it will have to come back. However, I believe with me briefly, as I have not said anything from these that we have a Bill which will work and that the people Benches. We have just moved the last amendments in who now have to put it into effect will be able to do so the last piece of what has been a massive jigsaw. I effectively and successfully. think that we are all pleased that we have finally come to the stage where, with the many amendments that have been made, we have ended up with a good, Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I will add workable Bill. some thanks of my own from these Benches. I thank I find it hard to believe that 19 months have passed the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, for the way in which since my noble friend the Convenor first asked me the pre-legislative scrutiny enabled this House to do whether I would chair the joint scrutiny committee on the Bill such justice. Indeed, I thank all Benches, the draft Bill. There are one or two noble Lords in including the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and his colleagues. their places who were members of that committee, and We should also acknowledge the work done in another I am sure they remember the two rather hectic months place by the Minister in charge of this Bill, Huw last summer during our deliberations. Irranca-Davies, and the member for Newbury, my honourable friend Mr Richard Benyon. Their work I am sure that we are all tremendously relieved that greatly enabled the Bill to come back to us with we have now reached the end of the Bill, but our relief amendments which have strengthened it, and we should surely is as nothing compared with that of the Bill be grateful for that. None of this would have been team, who have been involved for several years now. possible without an excellent Bill team to back up the Once again, I express thanks to them. I thank also the Ministers. I join in congratulating the erstwhile Minister Minister and his noble friend Lord Hunt, who we have for the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings heard has moved on to rather more energetic matters. Heath, and the Minister on his safe shepherding of the He and his noble friend are among the hardest working Bill to its final stage. members of the government Front Bench and they have exhibited their traditional courtesy, forbearance, patience and good humour throughout. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I am grateful The baton now passes to the fledgling Marine for all those comments, not least because they have left Management Organisation. I take comfort from the me at least 13 minutes in which I can dwell on the fact that the appointed chairman is regarded by his virtues of everybody who has contributed to the Bill. fellow former naval colleagues as a forthright character. Rest assured that I have no intention of taking such That is to be welcomed. He will need that in clearing time, but I want to pay tribute to all those who have the many difficult hurdles that the Marine Management contributed so much. Organisation will have to face in achieving a balance The noble Lord, Lord Greenway, started further between conserving the many treasures with which back than any of us, with the pre-legislative committee. this country is gifted in the maritime sphere and We were grateful for his wise guidance through the upholding legitimate use of the sea for trade, livelihood, development of the Bill in this House. I emphasise leisure purposes and work. that the Bill had 11 days in Committee and four on I can only wish the Bill the fairest of winds—we Report; it has not been a marginal contribution to the sailors like to say “a soldier’s wind”—and I am sure work of the House this year—very far from it. The Bill that we shall all watch its implementation with the had quite the most intensive scrutiny. Therefore, I am greatest possible interest. very grateful for all the work of noble Lords, particularly the Front Benches and the indefatigable noble Lord, Lord Greaves. I have not the slightest doubt that he 9.45 pm has had that epithet addressed to him on past occasions. Lord Greaves: My Lords, I want only to echo He certainly always showed enormous commitment to everything that the noble Lord, Lord Greenway, has the work involved in the proceedings on the Bill. I am just said. I will not repeat it all, except to underline grateful for his work and that of the other Members of what I think I said when the Bill left this House. It was the Liberal Front Bench. valuable that we had, in my view, the best Bill team The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, not only committed that I have ever seen in the nine or 10 years that I have himself to the most enormous work in the House but, been in this House. The team deserves our congratulations; as I indicated, in our deliberations over the summer it did a very good job. took part in at least one crucial meeting which helped 891 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL][11 NOVEMBER 2009] Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] 892 us with an important part of the Bill on the shellfish calm successor—namely, myself—tried to cope with industry. That is typical of the constructive way in the intricacies of the Bill. I am grateful to them for the which he has approached this legislation. I greatly enormous contribution that they have made and I applaud his work for that. salute them on achieving two great objectives. The Bill contains two great components with which in future I am, of course, conscious of the fact that the Bill years we will be proud to be associated. There is no started here, and spent a great deal of time here, but it doubt at all that we have taken the most enormous was considered very carefully in the other place. The step forward in marine conservation in protecting my Minister, my honourable friend Huw Irranca-Davies, favourite animal, the long-snouted seahorse; I look played a considerable part in getting the Bill through forward to that animal being protected in years to the Commons. I, of course, also recognise the contribution come. made by Richard Benyon, the Member for Newbury. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, said, we have One last group that I want to thank is the Bill team, deliberated today without mentioning the part of the whose members carry the heat and burden of the day Bill that relates to the coastal path. I think that our very intensively and not just through the long preparatory fellow citizens will appreciate what we have done in period. All noble Lords will recognise that, when the that regard and that we shall get many plaudits for the going gets tough, it is the Bill team that has to bear the work that we have done in producing the legislation weight of ministerial frustrations and anxieties. that creates that benefit for our community. Frustrations and anxieties there have been aplenty. The calmness of my noble friend Lord Hunt saw us Motion agreed. through most of them, but members of the Bill team also had to sustain themselves when his rather less House adjourned at 9.52 pm.

WS 49 Written Statements[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Statements WS 50

Herzegovina on UN Security Council business including Written Statements through intensified policy exchanges and the provision, by our embassy in Sarajevo, of capacity-building Wednesday 11 November 2009 workshops. I visited the headquarters of the International Bosnia and Herzegovina Commission for Missing Persons (ICMP) which is based in Sarajevo and saw at first hand the pioneering Statement DNA-based work carried out by ICMP to identify the remains of missing persons. This work makes a vital The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth contribution to peace and stability in the region and to Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): My right regional and international judicial processes. The British honourable friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Government are a strong supporter of ICMP’s work. and Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband) has I also had valuable meetings with representatives of made the following Written Ministerial Statement. civil society including with representatives of non- On 5 and 6 November, I visited Bosnia and governmental organisations who have been partners Herzegovina. During my visit I met with the three of the UK in taking forward project work under our member joint presidency, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, conflict prevention and strategic programme funds. I the Prime Minister of the Federation of Bosnia and also met with British members of the EU military and Herzegovina, the Prime Minister of Republika Srpska policing missions in Bosnia and Herzegovina. and leaders of seven political parties. I also met with representatives of civil society and visited the International Commission for Missing Persons. Business: Company Rescue The British Government are strongly committed to Statement Bosnia and Herzegovina’s security and stability. Our vision is of Bosnia and Herzegovina as a fully functioning The Minister for Trade and Investment (Lord Davies state making real progress towards membership of the of Abersoch): My honourable friend the Minister for EU and NATO. In my meetings with Bosnia and Business and Regulatory Reform has today made the Herzegovina’s political leaders, I reconfirmed the UK’s following Statement. commitment to the processes of EU and NATO enlargement, and to Bosnia and Herzegovina’s future I am setting out today the Government’s response membership of both organisations. I emphasised the to the recent Insolvency Service consultation on need for compliance with the Dayton framework. I encouraging company rescue. made clear UK concern about the prolonged slowing In launching the consultation, the Government down of reform in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and identified the importance of maintaining an effective stressed that without genuine action to unblock reforms and fair corporate insolvency framework that enables there was a risk of Bosnia and Herzegovina falling viable businesses facing temporary difficulties to turn behind the rest of the region on its path to membership themselves round, helping to preserve jobs and livelihoods. of the EU and NATO. The consultation document invited views on a number I made clear that the UK wanted to see the transition of possible measures to further enhance the existing of the international presence in Bosnia and Herzegovina regime, including moratoria for companies that need a from the Office of the High Representative to a European breathing space in order to agree restructuring proposals Union Special Representative but only on the basis of with their creditors, and measures to promote increased full completion of the conditions and objectives set by access to rescue finance. the Peace Implementation Council in February 2008. I More than 50 businesses, individuals, and representative encouraged the party leaders to redouble their efforts bodies responded to the consultation. The majority of to make progress on the outstanding conditionality. respondents supported the Government’s view that In this context, I urged Bosnia and Herzegovina’s despite the challenges faced by business in the current political leaders to engage wholeheartedly and difficult economic conditions, the existing statutory constructively in the EU/US initiative to reinvigorate framework for company rescue is performing well, the reform process. The initiative offers an important and continues to compare well internationally. opportunity for Bosnia and Herzegovina’s political The moratoria proposals were broadly welcomed. leaders to engage together in order to find a way Respondents made a number of helpful comments through some of the blockages. This initiative is evidence and suggestions as to how the potential benefits could of the international community’s strong engagement: be maximised, whilst minimising the risks to creditors. it needs to be met with a corresponding political will The Insolvency Service will be taking forward more on the part of Bosnia and Herzegovina’s leaders. detailed development of the relevant proposals over In my meetings with the joint presidency and the the coming months, building on feedback received Minister of Foreign Affairs, I welcomed Bosnia and from the consultation. Herzegovina’s election to non-permanent membership In relation to rescue finance, the views of respondents of the UN Security Council in 2010-11. This will be an were more divided. A number suggested that in practice important opportunity for Bosnia and Herzegovina to the availability of new finance for companies seeking contribute to addressing threats to international peace to restructure was less of an issue than had been and security. The United Kingdom looks forward to indicated, and that the need for legislative change was developing a close partnership with Bosnia and not apparent. Stakeholders also recognised the need WS 51 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 52 to balance the benefits of possible legislative changes have been arrested and had their DNA and fingerprints against some of the risks, particularly if changes had a taken but were not subsequently cautioned or convicted. negative impact on the behaviour of lending institutions Achieving the appropriate balance between privacy towards businesses in general. Having considered the and public protection, in a way which satisfies the consultation responses on this issue, the Government ECtHR judgment, has been our objective. have decided that they will not for the moment be Since the publication of the consultation paper we taking forward the finance-related proposals. We will have sought to further the evidence base through however continue to work with stakeholders to monitor additional research. The research lends support to the the position going forward. public protection case for retaining the DNA of those Copies of the non-confidential responses to the who have been arrested for but not convicted of criminal consultation are being published today on the Insolvency offences. It suggests that we can go some way to Service website (www.insolvency.gov.uk), together with reduce the retention periods originally proposed without a summary of those responses. compromising public protection, indicating that the chance of re-arrest, following an arrest with no further action, of individuals with no previous convictions Crime: DNA and Biometric Data remains higher than the chance of arrest in the general Statement population for six years following the initial arrest. DNA samples—the ECtHR judgment highlighted The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home the particular sensitivity of retaining DNA samples as Office (Lord West of Spithead): My right honourable distinct from the profiles taken from them which are friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department held on the National DNA Database (NDNAD). (Alan Johnson) has today made the following Written Although not required by the judgment, we continue Ministerial Statement. to believe that there is scope for destroying samples not only of those arrested but not convicted, but also I am announcing today proposals on a new retention of those who have been convicted. We propose that framework for DNA and fingerprints to be introduced samples should not be retained beyond a six-month though primary legislation as soon as parliamentary maximum, which is needed to ensure satisfactory loading time allows. I am also today publishing on the Home of the profile taken from the sample onto the NDNAD. Office website and placing in the Library of the House We do, however, propose to bring forward a power for the responses to the consultation exercise on earlier the police to take a further sample should the defence proposals published in May 2009. I will also be placing of an accused person challenge the authenticity of the on the Home Office website at www.homeoffice.gov.uk/ results of the analysis of the destroyed sample. documents/cons-2009-dna-database/ a review of the Convicted adults—we propose the indefinite retention research carried out in this area. of DNA profiles of convicted adults in line with the The UK has been at the forefront of using DNA in consultation paper. This would also apply to people the detection of crime for many years, and it has who are given a caution, warning or reprimand. played a key role in the conviction of numerous individuals Unconvicted adults—in setting a proportionate for the most serious of crimes over the years; some retention period for the DNA profiles of unconvicted 832 matches to the National DNA Database were adults which does not compromise public protection, made in cases of murder, manslaughter or rape in we have taken account of the improved evidence base 2008-09 alone. The Government are determined that and responses to the proposals in the original consultation DNA and fingerprints should continue to play a key paper. We propose a six-year retention period for the role in public protection and the prevention and detection profiles of unconvicted adults, irrespective of the of crime. seriousness of the crime for which they were arrested. In December 2008 the European Court of Human Although the ECtHR suggested that the seriousness Rights (ECtHR) judgment in the case of S and Marper of the alleged offence should be a factor in determining found that the blanket retention of DNA profiles and what length of retention was proportionate, the best fingerprints indefinitely where there had been no available evidence indicates that the type of offence a conviction represented a breach of Article 8 of the person is first arrested for is not a good indicator of European Convention on Human Rights. the seriousness of offence he might subsequently be The Government undertook to give effect to the arrested for or convicted of in future. As the retention judgment and to amend domestic law accordingly. We of the DNA of innocent people is not punitive, but published proposals in May 2009 in a consultation rather a measure to facilitate the detection of future paper Keeping the Right People on the DNA Database. offences, the Government therefore conclude it is The consultation period ended in August and some appropriate to have a single retention period. 500 responses, the majority from individuals, were Juveniles—while the evidence base does not support received. We have considered those responses carefully shorter retention periods for juveniles, we have, in before bringing forward the proposals below. setting a proportionate retention regime for juveniles, The retention of biometric data remains a sensitive whether convicted or unconvicted, given weight to the issue. Such data help in the detection and conviction comments in the ECtHR judgment on juveniles, the of criminals and may also be used for identification United Nations Convention on the Rights of the purposes outside the criminal justice context. There is Child and the responses to the consultation paper. less argument about the retention of biometric information Convicted juveniles—we propose that the DNA in respect of those who have been convicted of a profiles of convicted juveniles should be retained criminal offence than there is in respect of those who indefinitely for serious offences, and for five years for WS 53 Written Statements[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Statements WS 54 the first minor offence, with indefinite retention for a governance arrangements by placing the national DNA second conviction. This recognises that for many young Database Strategy Board on a statutory footing and people involvement in crime in their teenage years is by introducing to it a wider independent membership. often an isolated and minor incident. However, we Terrorism and national security—material taken also recognise that, for some young people, involvement under any regime (including the Terrorism Act 2000) in crime in their teenage years is a strong indicator of would be able to be retained beyond the six-year point risk of further criminal activity into adulthood. We where there is a case for doing so on the basis of a believe, therefore, that a limited retention period for a case-by-case review on national security grounds. This single conviction, with indefinite retention in the case would require a review by a senior police officer every of any further conviction, strikes the appropriate balance. two years—although data would be deleted if it became Unconvicted juveniles—we propose that, where 16 clear between reviews that their retention would no and 17 year-olds are arrested for but not subsequently longer be necessary. The policy for juveniles would be convicted of a serious offence, their DNA profile similar but would take account of the differential would be retained for six years (as for adults), taking treatment proposed for juveniles more generally. account of the ages at which peak offending occurs. For all other juveniles, we propose a three-year retention Driving: Licences period for DNA of those who have been arrested but Statement not convicted whatever the offence for which they were arrested, and at whatever pre-18 age they were The Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis): arrested at. This corrects a possible anomaly with the My honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary original proposal, identified by consultation respondents, of State for Transport (Paul Clark) has made the that an individual arrested at age 10 might have had following Ministerial Statement. their DNA retained for eight years, whereas someone The Department for Transport has today published arrested at age 17 might have had their DNA retained a consultation document which outlines our proposals for only one year. It also provides an appropriately for implementing of the third EU Directive on Driving more lenient approach to juveniles who are arrested Licences (Directive 2006/126/EC), adopted in December but not convicted, compared with those who do receive 2006. a conviction. Most features of the directive must be transposed Fingerprints (adult and juveniles)—we propose that, into national law by mid-January 2011 and come into in all cases, the same regime should apply to the practical effect by mid-January 2013. In general, the retention of fingerprints as for DNA profiles. The directive harmonises definitions of vehicle sub-categories ECtHR judgment implied that fingerprints were a and rules on the duration of the validity of a licence; it lesser intrusion of privacy, but we are not aware of introduces minimum standards for driving examiners evidence which suggests we should propose a different and aims to ensure that no one can at any one time retention policy. possess more than one licence issued by an EU state. Most of its provisions are consistent with current UK Additional powers—in line with our aim to ensure practice or with measures the Government anyway that the right people are on the database our proposals intended to take. in this area will, as we set out in the May consultation The main changes required by the directive to current document, include giving the police the power to take practice in Great Britain are: fingerprints and non-intimate samples without consent from UK nationals or residents convicted of specified changes to the size categories of motorcycles, serious offences abroad at any time; to remove the including a new medium-sized category; existing statutory bar (in the Criminal Evidence an increase from 21 to 24 in the minimum age for (Amendment) Act 1997) on taking non-intimate samples motorcyclists gaining direct access to the most from persons convicted of serious offences before powerful motorbikes; 10 April 1995 who have been released from prison; a new test or a training programme for younger and to give the police the power to take non-intimate motorcyclists wishing to progress in stages to the samples and fingerprints post-arrest where the initial larger and more powerful machines (currently, sample has proved inadequate for analysis even though unlimited access to all motorcycles is gained a person is no longer in police detention. automatically after two years’ experience on less powerful machines); Destruction of DNA and fingerprints profiles before drivers of medium and large buses and lorries must the end of retention period—currently, chief officers renew their licences and demonstrate continuing may consider the exceptional destruction of DNA and medical fitness every five years (the present fingerprints under the exceptional case procedure. We requirement in Britain is five-yearly renewal only propose to introduce greater transparency by setting after age 45); and out in statute more clearly defined criteria where deletion a new category for car and light van drivers wishing would be appropriate. This should bring greater clarity to tow a medium-sized trailer, with qualification via to the public and also the police. a test or a training programme. Governance—it is important that, in addition to Major changes to entitlement, eg those applying to putting in place the proportionate regime for the retention motorcyclists and drivers towing trailers outlined above, of DNA and fingerprints set out above, we are also will apply only to people first acquiring driving licences able to promote public confidence in the operation on or after 19 January 2013. Drivers and riders will of that regime. We therefore propose to strengthen keep any entitlement they already have on that date. WS 55 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 56

The consultation document explains in detail the the October European Council, EU leaders agreed to changes involved. We intend to introduce them in a draw up a European strategy for jobs and growth, to way which involves the minimum amount of departure secure a strong and sustainable economic recovery. from current practice, at the least possible cost. The October European Council stressed the importance The estimated cost of implementing the directive is of reforms to strengthen the internal market, deliver £10 million for developing the necessary systems and investment in the industries and jobs of the future, annual operating costs of £2.1 million thereafter. These promote increased trade and strengthen the financial figures would rise to £14.9 million and £3.1 million sector. respectively if the training options for motorcyclists EU Sustainable Development Strategy and drivers towing trailers were taken up (all figures in On the basis of a Presidency report, Ministers are 2009 prices). expected to discuss the priority areas for the EU Some further changes will be required in the future. sustainable development strategy (SDS) and how these For instance, all paper licences must be withdrawn by should be delivered. We expect conclusions to be 2033. adopted by the December European Council, which The consultation period will run until 11 February will influence the decision on whether there should be 2010. Copies of the consultation document have been a fundamental review of the strategy, due by 2011 at placed in the Library of the House. Further copies are the latest. A recent review identified a number of areas available on the DfT website at www.dft.gov.uk. where the EU is not on track to meet the targets in the Depending upon comments received and the SDS, and considered how its principles could influence Government’s response, implementing regulations will policy-making more effectively.The Government support be laid before Parliament in order to transpose the strengthening these aspects of the EU SDS and also directive into law in Great Britain by the due date of ensuring that it is well-coordinated with other EU January 2011. Separate arrangements apply in Northern strategies such as the Lisbon strategy. Ireland, where driver licensing is a devolved matter. External Relations Russia Discussion will focus on the forthcoming EU-Russia EU: General Affairs and External Summit on 18 November. The Government welcome the Presidency’s close consultation on plans for the Relations Council summit and support the priorities identified in the Statement agenda. If a wider discussion opens up, I will seek to debrief partners on my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary’s recent visit to Moscow. The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Ukraine Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): My honourable Ministers will discuss preparations for the EU-Ukraine friend the Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant) has summit in Kyiv on 4 December. Ukraine is an important made the following Written Ministerial Statement: neighbour of the EU and a key country within the The General Affairs and External Relations Council new Eastern Partnership. The summit is also important (GAERC) will be held on 16/17 November in Brussels. because it will take place in the month before presidential My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for elections. We want the Presidency to use the summit to Development (Douglas Alexander MP), my noble friend further stimulate Ukraine’s democratic development, the Minister of State for International Defence and promote political and economic reform, deepen the Security (Baroness Taylor) and I will represent the process of European integration through the new UK. association agreement and help Ukraine consolidate The agenda items are as follows: its sovereignty. General Affairs Ukraine has been badly hit by the global economic Preparation of the 10-11 December European Council crisis and the summit offers an opportunity to reiterate The GAERC will discuss the Presidency’s draft the EU’s strong support for the IMF programme that agenda for the December European Council. We expect has been put together to help Ukraine get through the the European Council to focus on the economic and crisis. A package of EU macro-financial assistance financial situation, with a view to reaching agreement might also be offered subject to the IMF programme on the Commission’s proposals for financial supervision remaining on track. Ukraine is a key transit country and regulation. The December European Council will for Russian gas and is therefore of great importance to also adopt the EU’s new work programme (the ‘Stockholm the EU’s energy security. We want the Presidency to programme’) setting out priorities for EU cooperation use the summit to help ensure Ukraine remains a in Justice and Home Affairs from 2010-14. There may reliable partner on energy issues. also be discussions on a new Lisbon strategy post-2010, Somalia enlargement and external issues. EU Foreign and Defence Ministers will discuss Post-2010 Lisbon Strategy Operation ATALANTA and wider EU engagement Ministers will discuss the Post-2010 successor to on Somalia in separate sessions. On ATALANTA, the Lisbon strategy for jobs and growth. The successor discussions will focus on the operation’s six-monthly strategy should build on the economic and structural report. There may also be calls to make a decision on a reform programme set out by the initial strategy. At proposed training mission for troops loyal to Somalia’s WS 57 Written Statements[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Statements WS 58

Transitional Federal Government (TFG), and Member rights; and both civil and military capability development. States may be pressed to indicate what resources they The Government have been supportive of the Presidency’s are able to contribute. active engagement in this field. We support the concept of the EU providing support Joint Session of EU Foreign and Development Ministers for training of TFG security forces but planning needs Afghanistan and democracy support in EU external to ensure that any mission would be workable and relations genuinely contribute to progress in Somalia. EU support must be co-ordinated and agreed with other international Ministers will consider the EU’s approach to democracy community actors in the region (UN, AU, US and building in external relations, and will adopt conclusions, bilateral efforts from Member States) and the TFG which we fully support. We particularly welcome the through the Joint Security Committee mechanism and fact that they are a joint initiative (from the development funds must be set aside with a mechanism in place to and human rights working groups) and that they set ensure that all trained troops are paid upon return to out an agenda for action which could lead to real Somalia. change in how the EU delivers support to democracy in its external relations. This is not about increased ESDP civilian capabilities conditionality; rather it is about using what the EU After an introduction from the Presidency, Foreign already has more effectively and in a more coherent Ministers will have a short discussion on how to bring and co-ordinated manner. about improvements in civilian capabilities for European The focus of the Foreign and Development Ministers’ Security and Defence Policy missions. The discussion joint discussion on Afghanistan will be how the EU will bring together a set of work streams pursued by can work to support the new Afghan Government, the current Presidency on civilian ESDP, including a ensuring that it is able to deliver on President Karzai’s revised framework for deploying civilians rapidly through commitments to address corruption, governance and the EU, a new concept for undertaking EU police reintegration. Ministers will discuss how to fast-track substitution missions and a short report on Member implementation of the Council Secretariat/Commission States’ progress in developing the mechanisms to deploy paper on enhancing EU engagement in Afghanistan civilians overseas. and Pakistan. The Government support the paper, We anticipate that the discussion will focus on the and look forward to seeing a worked up implementation issue of finding more highly skilled civilians to deploy plan. through ESDP missions, particularly the EU Policing Meeting of EU Defence Ministers Mission in Afghanistan. The Government have been The European Defence Agency steering board will supportive of the Presidency’s efforts to harness civilian meet in Defence Ministers’ formation on 17 November. capability from across Europe to deploy on ESDP As consensus has not yet been reached on a three-year missions because it is at the heart of the EU’s ability to financial framework, on current plans Ministers will undertake more effective crisis management. be presented with the agency’s draft work plan and Belarus budget for 2010 only, though we continue to pursue Ministers may discuss recent developments and the prospect of reaching an acceptable three-year review whether progress has been sufficient to continue agreement. Ministers will also be given updates on six the suspension of the travel ban. Ministers may also European Defence Agency projects. For two of these look more widely at the EU’s engagement, and assess projects, Ministers will be asked to approve political what instruments it has at its disposal to bring about declarations: on European Military Airworthiness change. We will argue that there has not been sufficient Requirements and on a Level Playing Field for the progress to warrant lifting sanctions at this time, although European Defence Equipment Market. We support we would be prepared to see the suspension of the both of these initiatives. travel ban continue for a defined period. Defence Ministers will discuss Somalia. Please refer to the Somalia section under External Relations above Joint Session of EU Foreign and Defence Ministers for further information. Bosnia and Herzegovina: Operation Althea Ministers will discuss the implications of the Lisbon Ministers will discuss Bosnia and Herzegovina (BiH), Treaty for Defence Policy informally over lunch. These including the role of EUFOR Operation Althea. The will be initial, wide-ranging discussions aimed at Government support the ongoing presence of EUFOR stimulating the debate over how the provisions of the in BiH. The Presidency may also debrief Member treaty that affect defence might be implemented. There States on the current EU/US “Butmir” initiative: the will be no loss of sovereign control over the UK’s Government fully support this effort to increase the Armed Forces as a result of the Lisbon Treaty. pace of reform in BiH. Meeting of EU Development Ministers ESDP Development Ministers will discuss EU delivery of Foreign and Defence Ministers will have an overarching official development assistance (ODA) targets ahead discussion looking back at 10 years of European of the 2010 collective commitment to 0.56 per cent Security and Defence Policy and its future development. GNI. We expect strong language calling on Member Considerations will be based around the Council States to honour their targets, to set out timetables conclusions on ESDP as well as a declaration marking showing how they will do this, and calling on other its tenth anniversary. The conclusions are wide-ranging donors to agree similarly ambitious commitments. and include: current ESDP missions and operations; The Council will discuss how climate change cooperation with partners, including NATO, the UN considerations can be integrated into development and third states; conflict prevention; gender and human discourse including a priority discussion on climate WS 59 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 60 finance. Conclusions will be adopted. Whilst these do Minister of State for Children, Young People and not form part of the official EU position for the UN Families (Dawn Primarolo) made the following Written Framework Convention on Climate Change conference Ministerial Statement. in Copenhagen, we believe it is crucial that Development I have today placed in the Library of the House the Ministers take this opportunity to discuss the relationship Government’s response to the fifth annual report of between ODA and climate finance and recognise that the Teenage Pregnancy Independent Advisory Group. additional public finance over and above existing aid The Government welcome the recommendations commitments is necessary. made in the Independent Advisory Group’s fifth annual Other items on the agenda include a Commission report and acknowledge the valuable contribution the update on Economic Partnership Agreements and a group makes to the strategy and its implementation. discussion of an Operational Framework on Aid We have carefully considered and responded to all of Effectiveness and on Policy Coherence for Development. them. The Government have taken forward all the major recommendations including making sex and relationships education statutory within personal, social, G20: Finance Ministers Meeting health and economic education from 2011, and investing Statement more than £45 million in improving young people’s awareness and access to effective contraception. The Government are also taking forward other The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury recommendations of the group to improve the ways (Lord Myners): My right honourable friend the Chancellor that local services work together to prevent teenage of the Exchequer has made the following Written pregnancy and improve outcomes for teenage parents Ministerial Statement. and their children—with better co-ordination between The G20 Finance Ministers and central bank governors education, children’s and health services. As a key meeting was held on 6 and 7 November. A copy of the issue of health inequalities, child poverty and social communiqué and a progress report on the economic exclusion, Government are urging local areas to continue and financial actions of the London, Washington and prioritising and investing in their local teenage pregnancy Pittsburgh G20 summits prepared by the UK chair strategy to help accelerate progress. have been placed in the Library. Pre-Budget Report Statement Health: Teenage Pregnancy The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury Statement (Lord Myners): My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has today made the following Written The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministerial Statement. Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness I propose to present the Pre-Budget report to the Morgan of Drefelin): My right honourable friend the House of Commons on 9 December. WA 157 Written Answers[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 158 Written Answers Asked by Lord Bradley To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Wednesday 11 November 2009 households in each constituency in Greater Manchester were in receipt of (a) pension credit, and (b) working tax credit, in each of the past five Anglo-US Extradition Treaty years. [HL6242] Question Asked by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts Lord McKenzie of Luton: The number of households in receipt of pension credit is in the table To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the below. operation of the Anglo-United States extradition Households in receipt of Pension Credit in Greater Manchester treaty will be reviewed. [HL6291] Parliamentary February February February February February constituency 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Altrincham 3,110 3,190 3,150 3,140 3,090 Office (Lord West of Spithead): The UK keeps all its and Sale extradition arrangements under scrutiny. It is the West Government’s view that the UK-US treaty is working Ashton 5,530 5,620 5,620 5,620 5,630 well and they have no plans to review its operation. under Lyne Bolton 5,120 5,150 5,190 5,180 5,230 On 10 November 2009, the Secretary of State for North East the Home Department gave evidence to the Home Bolton 5,280 5,400 5,500 5,520 5,580 Affairs Select Committee, clarifying the role of the South East Secretary of State in relation to the UK-US extradition Bolton West 3,500 3,580 3,600 3,650 3,700 treaty. Bury North 4,050 4,070 4,150 4,160 4,130 Bury South 4,280 4,340 4,380 4,290 4,260 Cheadle 2,430 2,530 2,560 2,560 2,580 Benefits Denton and 4,900 4,900 4,900 4,920 4,930 Reddish Questions Eccles 5,600 5,590 5,580 5,560 5,470 Asked by Lord Bradley Hazel Grove 3,620 3,620 3,630 3,600 3,580 Heywood 5,160 5,180 5,260 5,260 5,260 and To ask Her Majesty’s Government what percentage Middleton of the resident population of the City of Manchester Leigh 5,160 5,260 5,290 5,300 5,320 who are of working age were in receipt of incapacity Makerfield 4,560 4,650 4,700 4,680 4,750 benefit in each year since 2000. [HL6081] Manchester 6,410 6,420 6,330 6,310 6,280 Central Manchester, 6,010 6,050 6,060 5,860 5,930 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Blackley Department for Communities and Local Government & Manchester, 4,900 4,960 4,870 4,850 4,810 Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Gorton Luton): The information requested is in the table. Manchester, 4,040 4,050 4,000 3,990 3,980 Withington Proportion of working age population in Manchester Local Authority Oldham 4,730 4,840 4,880 4,910 4,830 claiming Incapacity Benefit/Severe Disablement Allowance as a percentage East and since 2000 Saddleworth Year % Population Oldham 5,360 5,510 5,510 5,470 5,360 West and February 2000 13.6 Royton February 2001 13.7 Rochdale 5,440 5,510 5,520 5,500 5,540 February 2002 13.3 Salford 5,530 5,570 5,540 5,500 5,450 February 2003 13.0 Stalybridge 4,700 4,770 4,740 4,700 4,690 and Hyde February 2004 12.6 Stockport 4,200 4,230 4,270 4,270 4,250 February 2005 12.3 Stretford 4,480 4,510 4,480 4,420 4,380 February 2006 11.7 and February 2007 11.3 Urmston February 2008 10.7 Wigan 4,550 4,630 4,640 4,630 4,640 February 2009 9.9 Worsley 4,620 4,730 4,730 4,770 4,740 Wythenshawe 6,140 6,170 6,110 6,060 6,010 Source: Department for Work and Pensions Information Directorate and Sale 100% Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study East Notes: Column 133,430 135,050 135,190 134,640 134,410 Total i. Percentages have been rounded to the nearest decimal place ii Working age is classified as 16-59 for women and 16-64 for men Source: DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study iii Employment and support allowance replaced incapacity benefit and income support paid on the grounds of incapacity for new Notes: claims from 27 October 2008 1. The number of households in receipt is rounded to the nearest 10. iv. These data do not include claimants of employment support 2. Household recipients are those people who claim Pension allowance Credit either for themselves only or on behalf of a partner. WA 159 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 160

Estimates of the number of families receiving working The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, tax credit by parliamentary constituency and local Department for Communities and Local Government & authority are available in the HMRC publications Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Child and Working Tax Credits Statistics. Finalised Luton): The operational improvement plan (OIP) was Annual Awards. Geographical Analyses for the years a high-profile programme of activities designed to 2004-05, 2005-06, 2006-07 and 2007-08. Figures for drive much needed improvement in services to clients, 2003-04 are only available at disproportionate cost. productivity and efficiency, and to contribute towards These publications are available on the HMRC public service agreement targets. Progress was kept website at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax- under constant review during the three years of the credits/cwtc-geog-stats.htm. plan, with high levels of executive scrutiny, initially by the CSA chief executive, later commissioner, and his executive team and the non-executive directors who attended the OIP programme board. Child Maintenance The Child Support Agency report on handover to Question the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, published in December 2008, noted that the operational Asked by Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope improvement plan was acknowledged to have driven up performance and made the CSA a more businesslike To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many organisation. The commission continues to act upon people used the child maintenance options service the findings of the handover report. in the most recent period for which figures are available. [HL6167] The performance of the Child Support Agency was made public throughout the duration of the OIP through the agency’s quarterly summary of statistics. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Between March 2006 and March 2009 the numbers of Department for Communities and Local Government & children benefiting increased from 623,000 to 780,500 Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of and the amount of maintenance collected increased Luton): The child maintenance options service offers from £836 million in the year to March 2006 to impartial and confidential information and support £1,132 million in the year to March 2009. There were about child maintenance. A customer is under no also improvements to the speed with which telephone obligation to supply the service with any personal inquiries were answered and the quality of the service information and can choose to remain anonymous. provided. Therefore there are no figures available for the number of individuals who have used the service. Information is available on the number of contacts Child Poverty made through the various media that a customer can Question use to access the service. This information is presented Asked by Lord Ouseley in the table below and shows activity broken down each month in the quarter year ending September 2009. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they intend to prevent an increase in child poverty resulting July 2009 August 2009 September 2009 from a rise in unemployment affecting households Number of 15,600 13,000 14,200 in which neither parent has a job. [HL6260] successful contacts on outbound The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, calls Department for Communities and Local Government & Number of 11,300 8,400 13,300 Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of inbound calls Luton): The Government’s priority in the current economic Unique 61,100 50,800 72,300 climate is to support all families through the economic visitors to the downturn and to protect jobs. Since the start of the Options website downturn, the Government have invested around £5 billion to provide real help to people suffering the effects of Emails 700 600 700 received unemployment, including an extra £3 billion to Jobcentre Plus to provide personal help and advice to everyone who needs it. The Government remain convinced that parental employment is the most sustainable route out Child Maintenance and Enforcement of poverty for children. Commission The Government are committed to the eradication of child poverty and have introduced the Child Poverty Question Bill into Parliament. By entrenching this ambitious Asked by Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope goal in law the Government are ensuring that eradicating child poverty is a priority for every future Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans and a shared mission for our society. The Bill will they have to review the operational improvement require the Government to publish a child poverty plan of the Child Maintenance and Enforcement strategy, to be refreshed every three years, evaluating Commission. [HL6169] progress towards the 2020 vision and setting milestones WA 161 Written Answers[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 162 for further action across a wide range of policy areas. for issuing passports. There has been no change in this One of the strands of the strategy will focus on commitment and, while no precise timetable has been employment and skills, and another strand will focus set, it is intended that legislation will be published for on the financial support that is available to families. consultation during the next Parliament.

Child Support Agency Courts: Family Cases Question Question Asked by Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Asked by Lord Rooker To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government how, in allowing they have made of the rate of complaints received the media access to the written evidence and substance by the Child Support Agency and the average time of cases in the family courts, they have sought to taken to resolve investigations into complaints. protect the confidentiality of doctors and social [HL6170] workers in talking to children involved in care and related proceedings. [HL6223] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of of Justice (Lord Bach): The media are only able to Luton): The information requested is provided in the access written evidence in family proceedings following table below which shows a breakdown over the past an application procedure and with the express consent three years of the number of complaints received, the of the court. Additionally, the courts have been given caseload and complaints received as a percentage of a discretionary power to exclude the media from the caseload. proceedings where necessary. We would expect Information is not held on the average time taken professionals to use their judgment about the most to resolve investigations into complaints. Information effective and appropriate way to inform children of is recorded on complaints which have been fully resolved sufficient age and understanding on the use to which or where a resolution plan has been put in place within the information will be put and who is likely to come 15 working days of receipt. This information is included into contact with this information. in the table. Courts: Fees Complaints Complaints fully received as a resolved and/or Question percentage resolution plan Complaints of the agreed within Asked by Lord Lucas Year to Received Caseload caseload 15 working days To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Sep-07 43,690 1,411,300 3.1% 91.1% they have made of the situation whereby debtors Sep-08 29,720 1,359,700 2.2% 96.1% who were subject to bailiff action and subsequently Sep-09 26,550 1,261,900 2.1% 97.9% filed a complaint against the bailiffs using the form Notes: 4 complaint issued by the Ministry of Justice have 1. Uncleared work has been added to the live and assessed subsequently had cost orders of thousands of pounds caseload to give the total caseload amount. This is because a imposed on them by the court when the complaint complaint can be made at the pre-maintenance assessment stage. was dismissed; and whether they propose to make it As a result the caseload figures above will not match the live and clear on form 4 that such costs may be incurred, or assessed cases total shown in the quarterly statistical summary. prevent courts imposing such orders. [HL5982] 2. The clerical caseload has been added to the September 2007 caseload figure. Clerical cases are already integrated into the live The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry and assessed caseload figure in the quarterly statistical summary of Justice (Lord Bach): The decision on whether to for the September 2008 and September 2009 figures. award costs is a matter for the judge, which may be appealed to the High Court. I have asked my officials Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill to consider the wording on form 4 and the associated Question guidance. Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill Cyprus: Property To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the Question Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill does not contain provisions relating to the right to travel Asked by Lord Kilclooney and the procedures for issuing passports; and why To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have postponed consultation on draft legislation they have made of the ease of purchasing property on those matters until the next Parliament. [HL6205] in Northern Cyprus which was previously registered in the names of Turkish Cypriots or other Europeans The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home prior to 1974. [HL5962] Office (Lord West of Spithead): The Governance of Britain—Constitutional Renewal White Paper, published The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth in March 2008, made clear that the Government would Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): The Government introduce comprehensive legislation on the procedures have made no such assessment. WA 163 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 164

Department for Innovation, Universities Elections: Armed Forces and Skills: Consultants Question Question Asked by Lord Roberts of Llandudno Asked by Baroness Sharp of Guildford To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they To ask Her Majesty’s Government how much will take steps with registered political parties to the Department for Innovation, Universities and ensure the election communications delivered free Skills and its predecessors spent on consultants in to each elector are sent to military personnel serving each of the last three years; and who are the top six overseas. [HL6246] consultants employed in each year by order of expenditure. [HL5579] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Bach): At present, under Section 91 of the Representation of the People Act 1983, at general The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, elections any candidate is entitled to send, free of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord charge for delivery, either to each elector, or to each Young of Norwood Green): I will write to the noble address in the constituency, one piece of election material. Baroness and a copy of the letter will be placed in the At present, this provision enables communications to Library of the House. be sent to electors in UK constituencies and therefore only applies to communications that are sent to addresses within the UK. Consequently, any change to these Education: Special Educational Needs provisions to provide for election material to be sent to electors overseas would require amendment to primary Question legislation. Asked by Lord Sheikh There will be many candidates contesting 650 constituencies at the next general election. Many of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision those candidates will send an electoral communication. is in place for children and adults with special The delivery of this material may not take place until educational needs who want to enter tertiary education. the election is called and the candidates known. Conveying [HL6233] this volume of printed material in such a short timescale would place a significant burden on the transport The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, systems from the UK to those personnel serving overseas. Department for Children, Schools and Families (Baroness Therefore, extending the provisions under Section 91 Morgan of Drefelin): Young people with a statement of the RPA 1983 may therefore not necessarily be the of special educational needs (SEN) also have a transition most effective way for political parties to communicate plan from age 14 to help them make the transition with service personnel. from school to further studies and adult life. The local However, the noble Lord raises an important issue. authority Connexions service is responsible for arranging Service personnel must have the opportunity to participate assessments of all young people with SEN who are in fully in our democratic processes. My right honourable their last year of compulsory schooling and who are friend Michael Wills recently met armed forces families’ planning to go into further education or training. representatives to discuss arrangements for service voters and has written to invite all MPs to meet him Provision in tertiary education in the further education and give their views on improvements to service voting (FE) system for children and adults with SEN is based arrangements, and this important issue will be considered on assessed need. There are discrete courses for those as part of that process. with complex and profound disabilities, sometimes in a residential setting, while FE providers are able to offer places on mainstream courses as part of inclusion EU: Budget policies, having made reasonable adjustments to enable Questions access. Asked by Baroness Noakes Provision for adults will range from introductory courses on a part-time basis to full-time vocational To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the courses. amount or estimated amount of the United Kingdom’s net contribution to the European Union’s budget From April 2010, foundation learning will be offered, before and after the UK’s rebate for each of the which accredits all learning undertaken and enables years 2003–04 to 2010–11; and what percentage of learners to study at their own pace. gross domestic product each of those figures represent. Foundation learning will cover all provision at level 1 [HL6071] and pre-entry and will provide structured pathways to employment wherever this is appropriate and improve The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury learning outcomes generally. (Lord Myners): The Government’s latest figures for the amount or estimated amount of the UK’s net More broadly, the Government help remove the contribution to the European Community budget for barriers which prevent disabled students from entering the years 2003-04 to 2010-11 were published in table 3.2 and completing higher education by providing substantial of the European Community Finances White Paper of financial help through the disabled students’ allowances. July 2009 (Cm 7640), page 25. WA 165 Written Answers[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 166

The Office for National Statistics published GDP To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they figures for the years 2003 to 2008 in the UK National will increase the powers of enforcement to deal Accounts Blue Book 2009, pages 36-9. Projected GDP with drawback fraud. [HL6086] figures for 2009 to 2011 are published in the Economy To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many and Public Finances supplementary material to the (a) investigations, (b) prosecutions, and (c) convictions Budget 2009, page 25. for drawback fraud there have been in each of the Asked by Lord Willoughby de Broke last three years. [HL6087] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their forecasts for the United Kingdom’s gross contributions The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury to the European Union budget (a) on a year-by-year (Lord Myners): Drawback allows businesses to claim a basis, and (b) in total during the current financial repayment of excise duty on “duty paid” alcohol that perspective ending in 2013. [HL6324] they dispatch directly to another member state, export outside the EU, or destroy. Lord Myners: The Government’s latest forecasts for HMRC is aware of arrangements in other member the UK’s gross contributions to the European Community states that allow UK drawback claimants to place UK budget for the current financial perspective were published duty paid goods in tax warehouses in those member in table 3.2 of the European Community Finances states. In order to gain a better understanding of the White Paper of July 2009 (Cm 7640), page 25. In line nature of this trade and any possible associated fraud, with all other public expenditure estimates, the Treasury HMRC is working with UK representatives and does not currently publish forecasts beyond 2010-11. counterpart tax authorities in those member states. Claims to drawback in the UK are now assured by a central team, enabling better targeting of high-risk EU: Employment claims. A pilot exercise is under way to gain a better understanding of the reasons for the recent increase in Question the level of drawback claims and to determine a Asked by Baroness Noakes robust operational response. Previous examination of claims indicates, that a large proportion relates to To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the UK-produced beer. answer by Lord Myners on 27 October (HL Deb, col 1095) stating that “some 3.5 million jobs in No estimate has been made of the revenue lost to Britain are directly attributable to our membership HMRC from drawback fraud across all excise goods. of the EU”, on what evidence that figure was HMRC keeps neither central records of the numbers based. [HL6072] of officers deployed on drawback-related cases, nor statistics on the number of drawback investigations, prosecutions and convictions. Obtaining this information The Financial Services Secretary to the Treasury would incur a disproportionate cost. (Lord Myners): Using data for 2006 from the Office for National Statistics and input-output analysis, the From 1 April 2010, HMRC will introduce a new Government estimate that 3.5 million jobs in the UK standard penalty system for a number of excise regimes, are linked directly and indirectly to the export of including drawback. From this date, anyone making a goods and services to the EU. false claim will be liable to a penalty based on, among other factors, the potential lost revenue. Asked by Lord Sheikh Fraud To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Questions they are taking to tackle insurance fraud. [HL6180] Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the reported increase in cases of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what insurance fraud. [HL6181] investigations are being undertaken to establish the level of drawback fraud and the use of tax warehousing To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans facilities in member states of the European Union. are in place to give companies support in detecting [HL6082] cases of insurance fraud. [HL6182] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the estimated revenue lost to HM Revenue and Customs The Attorney-General (Baroness Scotland of Asthal): from drawback fraud. [HL6083] The national fraud strategy provides a framework for the counterfraud community to strengthen the UK’s To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment fight against fraud and make the UK a more hostile they have made of whether UK-produced beer environment for fraudsters. The National Fraud Authority products are being used in drawback fraud. [HL6084] (NFA) is dedicated to delivering on a number of To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many initiatives across the fraud spectrum, co-ordinating civil servants are engaged in drawback fraud the implementation of the strategy between government, investigations in the United Kingdom. [HL6085] law enforcement and the private sector. WA 167 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 168

Insurance Fraud Government Initiatives: Advertising Whilst there has been a reported increase in insurance Question fraud, research also shows an increase in the detection Asked by Lord Newby and reporting of attempted frauds by the insurance industry. Research by the Association of British Insurers To ask Her Majesty’s Government which initiatives (ABI) highlights improved data sharing through the by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and its Insurance Fraud Bureau (IFB) and a more focused agencies were advertised in each of the past five approach to detecting fraud has been adopted by the years; how much was spent on each; and which insurance industry. used the services of the Central Office of Information. [HL5509] Information Sharing The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth As part of the NFA’s initiative to improve Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): For the period information sharing between public and private sector 2008-09, the amount spent was £1,183,700 on the organisations, it is engaging with the Insurance Fraud Know Before You Go campaign, £316,984 on external Bureau and the ABI (among others) regarding the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) recruitment occurrence of fraud. Improving information sharing advertising and £949,700 on external FCO Services channels will serve to improve intelligence gathering, recruitment advertising. the identification of gaps in our counterfraud measures and the detection of fraud to strengthen our The following amounts were spent by the Central response. Office of Information (COI) on TV and radio fillers: 2004-05—£22,122; Motor Insurance Fraud (Staged Motor Vehicle 2005-06—£94,624; Accidents) 2006-07—£109,489; 2007-08—£105,560; and General insurance fraud costs the industry £1.9 billion 2008-09—£270,762. per annum, which adds £44 to the average premium of innocent policyholders. Motor insurance fraud, a COI figures also include distribution and production highly organised multimillion pound enterprise, is a costs of the fillers. The increase in overall expenditure specific area of insurance fraud which has been on the for 2008-09 was due to the increase in TV fillers. increase. For figures relating to previous years, I refer the noble Lord to the reply given by my right honourable Staged motor accidents, including induced accidents friend the then Minister for Europe, Caroline Flint, on which occur when an accident has deliberately been 24 November 2008 (Official Report, col. 1040W). caused with an innocent motorist with the intention of making a false or inflated insurance claim, are a particularly dangerous type of motor insurance fraud Government of Wales Act 2006 involving organised criminal gangs. Question In response to this problem a Staged Accident Asked by Lord Roberts of Conwy Strategy Working Group (SASWG) was formed under To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the chair of the Ministry of Justice and latterly the legislative competence orders and Acts of Parliament ABI. The group, of which the NFA is a member, has containing powers for the National Assembly for worked with the insurance industry to raise the profile Wales to make Assembly Measures under the of this type of fraud and has been instrumental in Government of Wales Act 2006 have been passed. instigating and supporting police enforcement action. [HL6227] By way of example, the IFB worked closely with the Greater Manchester Police on the Crash for Cash operation that recently resulted in the sentencing of Lord Davies of Oldham: Following the Government 19 defendants for their participation in organising at of Wales Act 2006, four legislative competence orders least 92 fake accidents. have been made and Parliament has approved two further orders by resolution, both of which will be National Fraud Reporting Centre submitted to the next Privy Council meeting on 17 November 2009. Seven Acts of Parliament have The recent launch of the National Fraud Reporting included framework powers devolving powers to the Centre (NFRC) on 26 October 2009 now provides a National Assembly for Wales. single point of contact for individuals and small and medium-sized businesses to report incidents of fraud. The first facility of its kind, the NFRC’s mandate is to Government: 30-year Rule advise victims of fraud of action they can take, including Question directing them to appropriate authorities for further Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill assistance, and to relay information to the police via the National Fraud Intelligence Bureau (NFIB). The To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they NFIB will be able to better identify and detect cases of intend to give effect to the recommendations of the insurance fraud. review of the 30-year rule; and, if so, how. [HL6241] WA 169 Written Answers[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 170

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Housing: Move-on of Justice (Lord Bach): The Government welcomed the 30-year rule review team’s findings, and the Prime Question Minister announced in his speech on constitutional Asked by Lord Hylton reform of 10 June that there would be a reduction of the rule to 20 years and consideration of enhanced To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they protections for certain categories of information. The will facilitate the provision of move-on accommodation review team made a number of other recommendations by housing associations and local authorities in its report, and the Government are preparing a for residents of hostels, foyers and supported detailed response to these, which will be published in accommodation. [HL5735] due course. Any change to the 30-year rule will require primary legislation. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of Health: Costs Luton): Facilitating “move-on” is the responsibility of Question local authorities. However, we are currently funding Crisis to support local authorities to expand and Asked by Lord Laird extend the availability of schemes that provide access to private rented accommodation for non-priority single To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the homeless people, and ensure that they are delivered to Written Answer by Baroness Thornton on 2 November the highest standards, through the provision of a (WA11–12) concerning payments received and made national advisory service. Since 2000, the department by the United Kingdom from and to non-waiver has grant funded a tenancy sustainment service for European Economic Area member states for former rough sleepers who occupy RSL properties. healthcare, why the amount paid to Ireland in 2007–08 was £336,631,460 when the amount received from Ireland was £18,205,223. [HL6250] Licensing: Live Music Baroness Thornton: The difference between the two Questions amounts reflects the fact that there are substantially Asked by Lord Clement-Jones more United Kingdom state pensioners living in Ireland than there are Irish state pensioners living in the UK. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are (a) the terms of reference of, and (b) the timescale for, the proposed consultation on an entertainment Health: vCJD licensing exemption for live music. [HL6171] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans Question they have to publicise their proposed consultation Asked by Lord Campbell-Savours on an entertainment licensing exemption for live music. [HL6172] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their they have made of the additional costs to the coroners proposed consultation on an entertainment licensing service of testing for vCJD. [HL6114] exemption for live music will include consultation on venues with a capacity of up to 200 people. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry [HL6173] of Justice (Lord Bach): There is currently no additional To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they cost to the coroner service of testing for vCJD. Such are holding a further consultation on a possible testing does not fall within coroners’ statutory duties entertainment licensing exemption for live music. and, as a service, they have declined to engage in a [HL6175] Department of Health-funded research project to test tissue samples obtained at post-mortem for vCJD. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures Coroners are independent judicial office-holders and are in place to deal with any noise and anti-social there is no authority to compel their involvement in behaviour arising at small venues that would qualify this project. Nevertheless, my honourable friend the for the proposed entertainment licensing exemption Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State wrote to the for live music. [HL6176] Coroners’ Society in March 2009 asking coroners to reconsider their position and agree to a number of Lord Davies of Oldham: On the subject of the coroners taking part in a pilot study, but the society proposed consultation on an entertainment licensing declined, citing the difficulties in obtaining consent exemption for live music, the consultation will be from bereaved families. conducted in accordance with procedures set out in Two coroners have, however, agreed on an individual the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006. We basis to take part in a pilot study for this project, and hope to publish the consultation this year and will the Health Protection Agency is liaising with them consult for the usual 12-week period. This will be about their costs. publicised on the department’s website. WA 171 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 172

The consultation will seek views on a proposal to National Security exempt live music performed before not more than 100 people from the Licensing Act. However, if the Questions consultation overwhelmingly shows that stakeholders Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones would prefer this to be extended to venues with a capacity of up to 200 people, then the Government To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many would consider this. times the Ministerial Committee on National Security, This is the first time the Government have held a International Relations and Development has met. public consultation on a live music exemption in relation [HL6195] to entertainment licensing requirements. One reason To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the Government are considering an exemption is that times the Ministerial Committee on National Security, other legislation exists to tackle noise nuisance and International Relations and Development sub- anti-social behaviour. In addition, we propose to create committees on (a) Europe, (b) Nuclear Security, a power to revoke exemptions if there are problems at (c) Overseas and Defence, (d) Africa, (e) Trade, specific premises. (f) Protective Security and Resilience, and (g) Tackling Extremism, have met. [HL6196]

Local Government: London Boroughs Baroness Crawley: The Ministerial Committee on Question National Security, International Relations and Development (NSID), and its sub-committees, exist to Asked by Lord Smith of Finsbury consider issues relating to national security, and the Government’s international, European and international To ask Her Majesty’s Government what alternative development policies. Details of these committees’ options for governance structures, including elected membership and terms of reference are available in mayors, designated leaders and appointed lead the Libraries of the House. members, will be available to London boroughs from April 2010; and what provision will be made Information relating to the proceedings of Cabinet for public consultation in the event that a change in and Cabinet committees, including the number of meetings held and topics discussed, is generally not governance is contemplated. [HL6294] disclosed as to do so could harm the frankness and candour of internal discussion. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones Department for Communities and Local Government & Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the Luton): The Local Government and Public Involvement Sub-Committee on Afghanistan and Pakistan of in Health Act 2007 requires London borough councils, the Ministerial Committee on National Security, other than those currently operating a mayor and International Relations and Development was formed; cabinet executive model, to resolve by 31 December and how often it has met. [HL6234] 2009 to adopt following the 2010 local elections either the new-style leader and cabinet executive model provided The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness for by the 2007 Act, or a mayor and cabinet executive Royall of Blaisdon): I refer the noble Baroness to the model. Before making such a resolution, councils must Written Ministerial Statement made by my right draw up proposals for their new governance model, honourable friend the Prime Minister on 21 July 2009 and before doing so must take reasonable steps to (col. 132WS) announcing the formation of a sub- consult the local government electors for, and other committee on Afghanistan and Pakistan of the Ministerial interested persons in, their area. Committee on National Security, International Relations and Development. The Written Ministerial Statement also includes the composition and terms of reference. Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 Information relating to the proceedings of Cabinet Question and Cabinet committees, including the number of meetings held and topics discussed, is generally not Asked by Baroness Cumberlege disclosed as to do so could harm the frankness and candour of internal discussion. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to amend the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones in order to allow independent nurse and pharmacist To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the independent prescribers to access the whole of the sub-committee on Intelligence of the Ministerial British National Formulary, including all controlled Committee on National Security, International drugs. [HL6338] Relations and Development was formed; and how often it has met. [HL6235] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord West of Spithead): It has not proved Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: The sub-committee on possible to answer the Question tabled in the time Intelligence of the Ministerial Committee on National before Prorogation, but I will write to the noble Baroness Security, International Relations and Development separately. was formed in July 2009. WA 173 Written Answers[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 174

Information relating to the proceedings of Cabinet The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, and Cabinet committees, including the number of Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs meetings held and topics discussed, is generally not (Lord Davies of Oldham): As of 21 October 2009, disclosed as to do so could harm the frankness and GOE employed 92.5 full-time equivalents, including candour of internal discussion. agency and interim staff. Five officials from the Government Olympic Executive (GOE) will participate in the Vancouver organisers’ Office of Cyber Security: Cyber Security official observer programme to study at first-hand Operations Centre Vancouver’s experience in staging an Olympic Games Question and to learn lessons for London 2012. My right honourable friend, the Minister for the Olympics will Asked by Baroness Neville-Jones also attend, together with her private secretary and a press officer. It is planned that two officials will join To ask Her Majesty’s Government what (a) funding, observer programme sessions run during the Paralympic and (b) resources, including staff numbers, have Games. been allocated to (1) the Office of Cyber Security, We estimate that the costs of GOE officials’ and (2) the Cyber Security Operations Centre. participation will be approximately £30,000—a reflection [HL6192] of Vancouver’s distance from the UK and hotel prices Baroness Crawley: The Office of Cyber Security in Vancouver during Games-time. (OCS) is allocated £130,000 funding for FY 09-10, while the Cyber Security Operations Centre (CSOC) Parliamentary Constituencies has not been allocated a budget for this fiscal year. OCS and CSOC staff costs are being borne by parent Question departments, with IT set-up costs being borne by a Asked by Lord Grocott combination of the Cabinet Office (OCS) and GCHQ (CSOC), as host organisation, as well as contributing To ask Her Majesty’s Government further to the agencies. The OCS is predicted to have 18 personnel Written Answer by Lord Bach on 3 November allocated by early 2010. CSOC expects to have a staff (WA 49–50), what is the estimated cost of a full of 19 by 10 March (the centre’s initial operating review of parliamentary constituencies in the United capability—or IOC—date). Kingdom. [HL6293] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Olympic Games 2010: Budgets of Justice (Lord Bach): The cost of the last general Question review of parliamentary constituencies in each part of Asked by The Earl of Caithness the UK was approximately as follows:

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is each England £10.8 million department’s budgeted expenditure for the London Northern Ireland £1.2 million [HL5750] Olympic Games in 2012. Scotland £957,120 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales £649,498 Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs UK total £13,606,618 (Lord Davies of Oldham): The public sector funding provision for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Passports Games is £9.325 billion made up of contributions of £5.975 billion from the Government, £2.175 billion Question from the National Lottery and the £1.175 billion from Asked by Lord Laird the Greater London Authority and the London Development Agency. A number of other government To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many programmes will be inspired by, or linked thematically passports have been issued by the Belfast branch of to, the 2012 Games. Many of these will help to fulfil the Identity and Passport Service in each year since the five promises in the Government’s legacy action 2001. [HL6282] plan for London 2012. Expenditure in these areas falls to be met from the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home budgets of the relevant departments. Office (Lord West of Spithead): The number of passports issued from the Belfast office since 2001 for each Olympic Games 2010 calendar year is shown below: 2001—216,599; Question 2002—248,479; Asked by Lord Moynihan 2003—174,327; To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many 2004—296,601; people are employed by the Government Olympic 2005—361,099; Executive (GOE); how many GOE employees will be present in Vancouver for part or all of the 2010 2006—354,688; Winter Olympic Games; and what is the budget 2007—380,455; and associated with their work in Vancouver. [HL5824] 2008—348,900. WA 175 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 176

People Trafficking Prison Population in England and Wales 1998-2009 Figures as at 30 June Question 1998 65,727 Asked by Lord Sheikh 1999 64,529 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action 2000 65,194 they have taken to increase the number of places 2001 66,403 available in safe accommodation to victims of human 2002 71,218 trafficking. [HL6230] 2003 73,657 2004 74,488 2005 76,190 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry 2006 77,982 of Justice (Lord Bach): The Council of Europe Convention 2007 79,734 on Trafficking which the Government ratified in December 2008 83,194 last year commits the UK to provision of safe sheltered 2009 83,454 accommodation for all those trafficked persons who need it. These figures have been drawn from administrative The Government have consequently invested £4 million IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording into specialist support services for victims of human system, are subject to possible errors with data entry trafficking over the next two years. and processing. This includes an investment of £3.7 million into the Poppy project to expand and improve the services that Prisons: Grendon are available to victims who have been trafficked into Question the sex industry and domestic servitude. The additional investment will see an expansion of supported Asked by Lord Judd accommodation, with refuge places for victims of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action trafficking for sexual exploitation and domestic servitude they are taking to ensure that the approach to in London, Sheffield and Cardiff. The investment will rehabilitation work with prisoners at HM Prison also fund a new national co-ordinator who will help Grendon is not affected by new public expenditure set best practice standards and work with areas to restrictions; and how they are using experiences of raise awareness with local agencies and funding that work in other prisons. [HL6214] commissioners. There will also be an increase in advocacy workers to help provide one-to-one tailored support The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry and the community outreach team will also be extended of Justice (Lord Bach): HMP Grendon is one of a with two link workers based within the UK Human number of establishments within the prison system Trafficking Centre to work in partnership with the that provides a therapeutic community-based regime police, the UK Border Agency and other partners to for those offenders who are assessed as having a help with victim identification and onward referral medium or high risk of harm and those diagnosed into support. with a personality disorder. Given the current economic Additionally, £300,000 is being invested into the climate, NOMS is required to look at ways of reducing UK Human Trafficking Centre to develop flexible overall cost and improving efficiency. This applies to support services for victims of labour trafficking. all prison establishments including HMP Grendon. NOMS and the director of offender management for the region are working closely with HMP Grendon to maintain the standards needed to deliver their Prisoners therapeutic based programme. The Royal College of Question Psychiatrists’ Community of Communities programme also has a robust accreditation scheme for therapeutic Asked by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts communities, including Grendon, which provides To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many assurance to NOMS, regulators and the public that prisoners were held in prisons in England and the programmes are of an acceptable quality and that Wales on 31 May in each of the past 12 years for quality and safety standards have been met. In addition, which figures are available. [HL6290] HMP Grendon is at the heart of the NOMS South East region project for improving staff-prisoner interaction, which is already having a positive impact in other The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry prisons across the region. of Justice (Lord Bach): The table below gives the numbers of prisoners held in all prison establishments Spain: Property from 1998 to 2009 (latest available). The figures are Questions taken from the published table 2.1 in Prison Statistics England and Wales 1998-2002; table 7.1 in Offender Asked by Lord Burnett Management Caseload Statistics 2003-08 and table 1 To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action in the Population in Custody June 2009. they have taken in response to the petition delivered As data are not available at 31 May for all years, to No 10 Downing Street on 12 March by Suzanne figures as at 30 June have been supplied. Wyatt concerning United Kingdom citizens who WA 177 Written Answers[11 NOVEMBER 2009] Written Answers WA 178

have bought, or attempted to buy, property in Spain; Unemployment and whether they have raised the matter with the Government of Spain. [HL6108] Question Asked by Lord Ouseley The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they Office (Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead): Although the intend to get both parents in low-income Government have no authority in matters relating to families into work, in the light of the level of Spanish domestic legislation, whether national, regional unemployment. [HL5674] or local, we understand the difficulties and distress caused to some British citizens by property-related issues in Spain, of which the petition is further good evidence. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & We are in regular contact with the central and local Department for Work and Pensions (Lord McKenzie of governments in Spain on this issue and raise our Luton): Increasing the number of parents in work is a concerns with interlocutors at every appropriate key priority in lifting children out of poverty. The risk opportunity. Most recently, my honourable friend the of poverty for children in workless couple households Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign is 68 per cent, nearly five times the rate of 14 per cent and Commonwealth Office Affairs, Chris Bryant, for children in working households. raised property issues with the Spanish Minister of State for Territorial Policy during his visit to Madrid In the current climate it is more important then ever in September 2009 and will do so again when he visits to ensure that we provide everyone who can work with this month. the support they need to find work, which will benefit not only their own family, but will contribute to the Asked by Lord Burnett economy as a whole. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Parents need extra support and we are increasing will make representations to the government of employment support through schools and children’s Spain about the level of compensation paid to centres to reach out to parents, particularly potential United Kingdom citizens for properties nationalised second earners, to encourage and support them to under the Ley de Costas. [HL6109] return to work. The work-focused services pilot in 30 children’s Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: Although the centres in 10 English local authority areas is testing Government have no authority relating to Spanish how children’s centres can offer an effective vehicle to domestic legislation, whether national, regional or engage parents in labour-market-related activity, and local, we are in regular contact with the central and so move them closer to employment and ultimately local governments in Spain on this issue and take the into work. opportunity to raise our concerns with interlocutors The School Gates Employment Initiative launched at every appropriate opportunity. We have expressed in October 2009 will enable non-working partners in our view to the Spanish Government that compensation low-income couple families to access support and should be in line with the true value of the property advice at their child’s school, which prepares them for, (before prices were depressed by the act or threat of and signposts them towards, employment and training expropriation), but internal property laws are the exclusive provision. remit of each member state. We are also taking powers in the Welfare Reform Asked by Lord Burnett Bill to introduce new measures to help partners of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment unemployed people find employment. they have made of the number of properties owned by United Kingdom citizens in Spain which may be demolished following the revocation of planning permission, in the light of assurances given to the Vehicles: Scrappage Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Question Foreign and Commonwealth Office on his recent visit to Madrid that no, or very few, properties Asked by Baroness Hanham owned by United Kingdom citizens would be To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many demolished. [HL6110] vehicles have been scrapped under the vehicle scrappage scheme. [HL6132] Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead: We constantly monitor the situation regarding property rights in Spain as they affect both Spanish and other citizens including The Minister for Trade and Investment (Lord Davies those from the UK. My honourable friend the of Abersoch): £153,944,000 has been paid out under Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign the scrappage scheme (as at 3 November). BIS and Commonwealth Affairs, Chris Bryant, has had payments are made once orders are fulfilled and several conversations with Spanish authorities on this transactions completed. This equates to 153,944 matter and will continue to raise it. vehicles scrapped. WA 179 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 180

Young People: Custody for breach of court orders or licences in each year since 1992. [HL5906] Question Asked by Lord Dholakia The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of Justice (Lord Bach): Figures on breaches of court young people aged under 18 were sent into custody orders are shown in the table below.

15 to 17 year-olds received into all prison establishments in England and Wales 1995 to 2008 for breaches of court orders 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Breach of Court 108 137 157 179 174 94 140 319 407 545 701 783 809 273 Order:

These figures are taken from the published tables 3.8 September 2009. To obtain further information from in Prison Statistics England and Wales for the years before April 2007 would involve disproportionate cost 1995 to 2002; table 7.14 in Offender Management as data are not held centrally. Caseload Statistics for the years 2003 to 2006; and table 6.12 in Offender Management Caseload Statistics These figures have been drawn from administrative for the years 2007 and 2008. Copies of these publications IT systems, which, as with any large-scale recording are all available in the House of Commons Library. system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Data on licences being revoked are as follows: and processing. The above tables all relate only to Since April 2007, when this information became England and Wales; for information relating to Scotland available, there were 57 cases of licences being revoked and Northern Ireland please refer to the Scottish for under 18 year-olds in the financial year 2007-08; Government and the Northern Ireland Prison Service 79 in 2008-09, and 49 in the six-month period April to respectively. Wednesday 11 November 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Bosnia and Herzegovina ...... 49 EU: General Affairs and External Relations Council ...... 55

Business: Company Rescue...... 50 G20: Finance Ministers Meeting ...... 59

Crime: DNA and Biometric Data...... 51 Health: Teenage Pregnancy...... 59

Driving: Licences...... 54 Pre-Budget Report...... 60

Wednesday 11 November 2009

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Anglo-US Extradition Treaty...... 157 Health: Costs ...... 169

Benefits...... 157 Health: vCJD...... 169

Child Maintenance ...... 159 Housing: Move-on...... 170

Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission...... 159 Licensing: Live Music ...... 170

Child Poverty...... 160 Local Government: London Boroughs ...... 171

Child Support Agency ...... 161 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 ...... 171

Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill...... 161 National Security...... 172

Courts: Family Cases ...... 162 Office of Cyber Security: Cyber Security Operations Centre...... 173 Courts: Fees...... 162 Olympic Games 2010 ...... 173 Cyprus: Property ...... 162 Olympic Games 2010: Budgets ...... 173 Department for Innovation, Universities and Skills: Consultants ...... 163 Parliamentary Constituencies ...... 174

Education: Special Educational Needs...... 163 Passports ...... 174

Elections: Armed Forces...... 164 People Trafficking...... 175

EU: Budget...... 164 Prisoners...... 175

EU: Employment...... 165 Prisons: Grendon...... 176

Fraud...... 165 Spain: Property...... 176

Government: 30-year Rule ...... 168 Unemployment ...... 178

Government Initiatives: Advertising ...... 168 Vehicles: Scrappage...... 178

Government of Wales Act 2006 ...... 168 Young People: Custody...... 179 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL5509] ...... 168 [HL5735] ...... 170

[HL5579] ...... 163 [HL5750] ...... 173

[HL5674] ...... 178 [HL5824] ...... 173 Col. No. Col. No. [HL5906] ...... 180 [HL6180] ...... 166

[HL5962] ...... 162 [HL6181] ...... 166

[HL5982] ...... 162 [HL6182] ...... 166

[HL6071] ...... 164 [HL6192] ...... 173

[HL6072] ...... 165 [HL6195] ...... 172

[HL6081] ...... 157 [HL6196] ...... 172

[HL6082] ...... 165 [HL6205] ...... 161

[HL6083] ...... 165 [HL6214] ...... 176

[HL6084] ...... 165 [HL6223] ...... 162

[HL6085] ...... 165 [HL6227] ...... 168

[HL6086] ...... 166 [HL6230] ...... 175 [HL6233] ...... 163 [HL6087] ...... 166 [HL6234] ...... 172 [HL6108] ...... 177 [HL6235] ...... 172 [HL6109] ...... 177 [HL6241] ...... 168 [HL6110] ...... 177 [HL6242] ...... 158 [HL6114] ...... 169 [HL6246] ...... 164 [HL6132] ...... 178 [HL6250] ...... 169 [HL6167] ...... 159 [HL6260] ...... 160 [HL6169] ...... 159 [HL6282] ...... 174 [HL6170] ...... 161 [HL6290] ...... 175

[HL6171] ...... 170 [HL6291] ...... 157

[HL6172] ...... 170 [HL6293] ...... 174

[HL6173] ...... 170 [HL6294] ...... 171

[HL6175] ...... 170 [HL6324] ...... 165

[HL6176] ...... 170 [HL6338] ...... 171 Volume 714 Wednesday No. 134 11 November 2009

CONTENTS

Wednesday 11 November 2009 Questions Israel...... 795 Crime: Domestic Violence...... 797 Terrorism Act 2006 ...... 800 Unemployment...... 802 Scottish and Northern Ireland Banknote Regulations 2009 Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (Amendment) Order 2009 Motion to Approve ...... 805 Skills for Growth Statement...... 805 Policing and Crime Bill Third Reading ...... 818 Coroners and Justice Bill Commons Reasons and Amendments ...... 823 Marine and Coastal Access Bill [HL] Commons Amendments...... 872 Written Statements...... WS 49 Written Answers...... WA 157