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Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru the National Assembly for Wales Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru The National Assembly for Wales Y Pwyllgor Materion Cyfansoddiadol a Deddfwriaethol The Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee Dydd Llun, 11 Mawrth 2013 Monday, 11 March 2013 Cynnwys Contents Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest Offerynnau Nad Ydynt yn Cynnwys Unrhyw Faterion i’w Codi o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhif 21.2 neu 21.3 Instruments that Raise no Reporting Issues under Standing Order Nos. 21.2 or 21.3 Offerynnau sy’n Cynnwys Materion i Gyflwyno Adroddiad arnynt i’r Cynulliad o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhif 21.2 neu 21.3 Instruments that Raise Issues to be Reported to the Assembly under Standing Order Nos. 21.2 or 21.3 Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order No. 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting Tystiolaeth Ynghylch yr Ymchwiliad i Ddeddfu a’r Eglwys yng Nghymru Evidence in Relation to the Inquiry on Law Making and the Church in Wales Papurau i’w Nodi Papers to Note Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42(vi) i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod 11/03/2013 Motion under Standing Order No. 17.42(vi) to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol Committee members in attendance Suzy Davies Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh Conservatives Vaughan Gething Llafur (yn dirprwyo ar ran Julie James) Labour (substitute for Julie James) David Melding Y Dirprwy Lywydd a Chadeirydd y Pwyllgor The Deputy Presiding Officer and Committee Chair Eluned Parrott Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Yr Athro/Professor Ysgol y Gyfraith Caerdydd, Prifysgol Caerdydd Norman Doe Cardiff Law School, Cardiff University Yr Athro/Professor Ysgol y Gyfraith Bangor, Prifysgol Bangor Thomas Glyn Watkin Bangor Law School, Bangor University Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance Gwyn Griffiths Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol Senior Legal Adviser Owain Roberts Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil Research Service Francesca Rowley Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Lisa Salkeld Cynghorydd Cyfrieithiol Legal Adviser Gareth Williams Clerc Clerk Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 2.40 p.m. The meeting began at 2.40 p.m. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datganiadau o Fuddiant Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest [1] David Melding: Good afternoon, and welcome to this meeting of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee. We have received apologies from Julie James and Suzy 2 11/03/2013 Davies, and we are expecting Vaughan Gething to substitute for Julie. I will make the usual housekeeping announcements. We do not expect a routine fire drill, so, if we hear the bell, please follow the instructions of the ushers, who will help us to leave safely. Please switch off all electronic equipment, as, even on silent, they will interfere with our broadcasting equipment. These proceedings will be conducted in Welsh and English. When Welsh is spoken, there is a translation available on channel 1, and channel 0 will amplify our proceedings. 2.41 p.m. Offerynnau nad ydynt yn Cynnwys Unrhyw Faterion i’w Codi o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhif 21.2 neu 21.3 Instruments that Raise no Reporting Issues under Standing Order Nos. 21.2 or 21.3 [2] David Melding: I understand that, on at least one, Gwyn wants to give us a short briefing on why there are two regulations instead of one. Is there anything else on item 2 before I ask Gwyn to clarify the situation on the Coleg Cambria further education corporation regulations? I see that there is not. [3] Mr Griffiths: Cyfeiriaf yn fyr iawn Mr Griffiths: I will refer very briefly to two at ddau offeryn—CLA218 a CLA219. Fel y instruments—CLA218 and CLA219. As you gwelwch, mae rheoliadau yn ymwneud â will see, there are regulations relating to llywodraethu a Gorchymyn yn ymwneud â government and an Order relating to chorffori. Hoffwn esbonio i’r pwyllgor pam incorporation. I want to explain to the mae dau offeryn. Y rheswm yn bennaf yw committee why there are two instruments. mai dyna sydd yn y ddeddfwriaeth sy’n The main reason is that that is what is caniatáu gwneud yr offerynnau hyn, ond y contained within the permitting legislation rheswm y tu ôl i hynny yw’r traddodiad mai for these instruments, but the reason behind Gorchymyn sy’n briodol pan fo rhywbeth yn that is that tradition dictates that an Order is digwydd unwaith a dyna ddiwedd ar y peth, appropriate where something is a one-off, fel y corffori, tra bo’r rheoliadau yn such as incorporation, while regulations ymwneud â phroses sydd yn barhaol, fel y relate to a process that is ongoing, such as the modd y mae’r coleg yn mynd i gael ei governance of the college over the coming lywodraethu yn ystod y blynyddoedd sydd i years. That is the rationale behind it. Is it ddod. Dyna’r rhesymeg y tu ôl i’r peth. A rational that legislation would require two yw’n rhesymol bod deddfwriaeth yn mynnu statutory instruments when one would do? dau offeryn statudol lle gellid cynnwys y That is another question that the committee cwbl o fewn un? Mae hwnnw’n gwestiwn might want to consider at some point in the arall ac efallai y gallai’r pwyllgor ystyried future. hynny rywbryd yn y dyfodol. [4] David Melding: Okay. Are there any further points? If there is nothing else under this item, we will move on. 2.43 p.m. Offerynnau sy’n Cynnwys Materion i Gyflwyno Adroddiad arnynt i’r Cynulliad o dan Reolau Sefydlog Rhif 21.2 neu 21.3 Instruments that Raise Issues to be Reported to the Assembly under Standing Order Nos. 21.2 or 21.3 [5] David Melding: There is one item here, namely on the natural resources body for Wales. I think that this is the second Order to come into force. Before I ask whether Members 3 11/03/2013 have any issues, I know that Lisa wants to talk about the question of intra vires and whether that has now been resolved, as that is indicated in the draft report. [6] Ms Salkeld: This is the revised draft that the Minister has laid. There are several reporting points, which are mainly typographical errors that would be suitable to be corrected on publication, but the main reporting point is that the Government is awaiting the consent of the Secretary of State and of Ministers before the Order can proceed. It has not been obtained as yet, although I understand that discussions are still ongoing. It would need to be in place before the Assembly votes on it in Plenary. There is also a merits point, which is that no impact assessment has been carried out within the explanatory memorandum, but the Government explains its reasons for this on page 6. [7] David Melding: Are there any other points to clarify? Are we content with the report? I see that we are. [8] We now have a choice: we can either adjourn for 15 minutes before Professor Doe joins us, or we can go into private session and start on the local government report. I am in your hands. Shall we go into private session and do some of that work? We will not necessarily finish it, because we will want to conduct the evidence session in public. 2.45 p.m. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog Rhif 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order No. 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting [9] David Melding: I move that the committee resolves to exclude the public for 15 minutes in accordance with Standing Order No. 17.42(vi). [10] I see that there are no objections. Derbyniwyd y cynnig. Motion agreed. Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 2.45 p.m. The public part of the meeting ended at 2.45 p.m. Ailymgynullodd y pwyllgor yn gyhoeddus am 3.02 p.m. The committee reconvened in public at 3.02 p.m. Tystiolaeth Ynghylch yr Ymchwiliad i Ddeddfu a’r Eglwys yng Nghymru Evidence in Relation to the Inquiry on Law Making and the Church in Wales [11] David Melding: This meeting of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee is now back in public session. I am delighted to welcome Professor Norman Doe from Cardiff Law School to this afternoon’s meeting. We are grateful to you, Professor, for giving of your time, [12] Professor Doe: It is my pleasure. [13] David Melding: We are also grateful for your helpful note, which I know everyone 4 11/03/2013 will have read. I will, therefore, not ask some background questions about the Welsh Church Act 1914 necessarily, although issues of deeper historical interest may come up as we tease out some of the questions. These proceedings will be conducted in Welsh and English. When Welsh is spoken, you may need to use the headphones, if you are not a Welsh speaker. The translation is on channel 1. Should you need to amplify proceedings, that is on channel 0. [14] Professor Doe: Do you suggest that I put them on now, in readiness? [15] David Melding: What I usually do—because I need the translation myself—is that, when a Member speaks Welsh, I put them on then.
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