MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE INQUIRY

IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATIONS BY EACH OF

(a) CANADIAN ARCTIC GAS PIPELINE LIMITED FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE YUKON TERRITORY AND THE , and

(b) FOOTHILLS PIPE LINES LTD. FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES FOR THE PURPOSE OF A PROPOSED MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE

and

IN THE MATTER OF THE SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTAL AND ECONOMIC IMPACT REGIONALLY OF THE CONSTRUCTION, OPERATION AND SUBSEQUENT ABANDONMENT OF THE ABOVE PROPOSED PIPELINE

(Before the Honourable Mr. Justice Berger, Commissioner)

Kakisa Lake, N.W.T. July 17, 1976

PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING

Volume 69

The 2003 electronic version prepared from the original transcripts by Allwest Reporting Ltd. Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3A7 Canada Ph: 604-683-4774 Fax: 604-683-9378 www.allwestbc.com APPEARANCES

Mr. Ian G. Scott, Q.C. Mr. Ian Waddell, and Mr. Ian Roland for Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Inquiry

Mr. Pierre Genest, Q.C. and Mr. Darryl Carter, for Canadian Arctic Gas Pipeline Lim- ited;

Mr. Alan Hollingworth and Mr. John W. Lutes for Foothills Pipe- lines Ltd.;

Mr. Russell Anthony and Pro. Alastair Lucas for Canadian Arctic Resources Committee

Mr. Glen Bell, for Northwest Territries Indian Brotherhood, and Metis Association of the Northwest Territories. INDEX Page WITNESSES:

Henry SIMBA 7924,7935, 7947 Philip SIMBA 7929 Jim THOM 7946 I. THOM 7949 Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7920

1 , N.W.T. 2 July 17, 1976 3 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 4 (CHIEF A CANADIEN RESUMED AS INTERPRETER) 5 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I'll 6 call our hearing to order ladies and gentlemen. The 7 job that I am doing is to find out as much as I ban 8 about the people who live in the north, about the way 9 they live, about their hopes and their fears so that I 10 can tell the government what in the end is likely to 11 happen if they build a pipeline to bring gas from the 12 arctic to the middle of the continent. 13 There are two companies -- 14 Arctic Gas and Foothills Pipe Lines. Each wants to 15 build a pipeline that would go along the Mackenzie 16 Valley and into the big cities and industries in the 17 south where people need natural gas. 18 Now the government has said 19 that if we build a natural gas pipeline through the 20 Mackenzie Valley, then we will be opening up a corridor 21 and that an oil pipeline will be built after that. So 22 what we have to consider is the development of a 23 corridor for gas and oil pipelines along the Mackenzie 24 Valley. 25 Now, the government has asked 26 me to come here to the north to find out from you about 27 your life and about your concerns for yourselves and 28 for the future. I have been travelling through the 29 north for two years now and I think I have learned a 30 lot. I have been listening to people all over the Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7921

1 north; Indian people, Metis people, Inuit people and 2 white people. This is one of the last places I'll be 3 visiting before I sit down to write my report and turn 4 it in to Ottawa. 5 I should say that if a pipeline 6 is built, there will be, we are told, thousands of 7 workers needed to build it. We are told that many of 8 those workers will be brought in from the south. We are 9 told that the cost of this pipeline will make it the most 10 expensive project that private enterprise has ever 11 undertaken in the history of the world. 12 You are the people that live 13 here. Some of you in the Mackenzie Valley live close to 14 the route of the pipeline, others farther away. But all 15 will feel the impact if the pipeline is built. To give 16 you an example of what I mean, we are told that they are 17 building a pipeline in Alaska. You've probably heard 18 about the pipeline they are building there. In the last 19 two years, 80,000 people have come to Alaska because 20 they wanted to get work on the pipeline. 21 We are told that there are more 22 people unemployed in Alaska now in the middle of pipeline 23 construction than there were before the pipeline got 24 started. Now, nobody feels that 80,000 people are likely 25 to come into the Northwest Territories if a pipeline is 26 built here. But if a pipeline does go ahead, many 27 thousands are likely to come or want to come. One of the 28 routes by which they would come would of course be the 29 which is just eight miles from your 30 village. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7922

1 So, we are trying figure out 2 ways of protecting villages like yours from an influx 3 of people from the south if the pipeline does go ahead. 4 We want to know how you feel about the pipeline, about 5 employment on the pipeline, about business 6 opportunities on the pipeline and about measures that 7 you think might be taken to protect your village. 8 So, I am here to listen to 9 you. After Chief Canadien has done his best to 10 interpret what I have said, we'll go ahead. So, can 11 you tell them what I was just saying? 12 (CHIEF CANADIEN TRANSLATES ABOVE) 13 HENRY SIMBA sworn: 14 THE INTERPRETER: That was 15 Henry Simba, the Councillor for Kakisa Lake. He said 16 there are times that he speaks and it seems that nobody 17 listens. He speaks for the people in town and nobody 18 listens and that since Mr. Berger is here and there is 19 a lot of people here, he would like to say something. 20 We in Kakisa live here. 21 Sometimes living here is hard. At the time that an 22 Indian agent wanted these people to move to Fort 23 Providence, at the time the old man sitting there, 24 Philip Simba, was the Chief then. They didn't want to 25 move into Providence. They said this was their land, 26 their hunting ground and they wanted to stay here. 27 Proof of that is still here at the -- about four miles 28 up along the shore there. They've got their old houses 29 still there and across the lake too. 30 That's why when the Indian Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7923

1 Agent told then that he's going to move them to 2 Providence nobody wanted to move. They wanted to stay 3 here. You see the houses here, that's the original group 4 of people who had been here before. We're still here. 5 Sometimes living here is 6 pretty hard. At the time that the old chief there 7 didn't want to move, I guess he had thought of the 8 future of these people. So, I guess he had foreseen 9 what was to happen. So they didn't move. 10 Here, they don't want for 11 anything. They don't have to wait for fuel to make 12 fire or anything like that. They didn't have to wail 13 for anything. They never had anything to do with 14 welfare. Their life is hard but they got by having 15 nets in the water, in the bay here and along the shore. 16 This is what they get by on. This is how they live. 17 He said that the time when 18 the Indian agents were trying to move them to 19 Providence they had come here a number of times trying 20 to persuade the old man to change his mind. But he 21 says he doesn't know what his father had thought or 22 why, hut. they never persuaded him to move. He said 23 that they wanted to live by their fishing lake. Before 24 they built these houses along the shore here, they had 25 lived in , in that area. At that time, 26 they had a huge forest fire I guess and it killed most 27 of the fish in the water. 28 So they moved into this area. 29 They established their little community here and it's 30 what you see today. At the time when they were living Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7924

1 at Tathlina Lake and all the fish had died in the water, 2 drifted to the shore. There was dead fish all along the 3 lake, on the shore. You couldn't drink the water so 4 they had to get water from the -- out on the swamps or 5 wherever they could find the water. 6 When they moved, the dogs had 7 to run along the shore. Some of these dogs ate some of 8 the fish and some of these dogs died as the result of 9 eating that fish. So, they made their way here and 10 here is where they established their little community. 11 He said when they got here 12 again, the Indian agent came around again and told them 13 to move to Providence again. Since they belong to the 14 band, they should go over there. 15 However, the old man said "no", that they are people 16 from this area and here is where they want to stay. 17 Twice the Indian agent made some kind of a report or 18 something to send to Ottawa for them. Finally about 19 after three summers, the Indian agent came and told 20 them that they could cut logs and they can build a 21 house for themselves. He said there was no carpenter 22 around to help them, nothing. These are the houses 23 that they built. The Indian agent -- Indian Affairs 24 provided the materials for them. There was no 25 carpenter. They didn't have any carpenter or anything 26 to build these houses. 27 He said that finally they 28 sent a carpenter here. He started fooling around with 29 the houses and all that but he didn't stay too long 30 because, you see his little monument there, the guy Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7925

1 drowned in the water. 2 This is just a part of our 3 story here in Kakisa. But he likes to say more to Mr. 4 Berger. 5 Since you are here, you might 6 as well listen to other problems that we have. There 7 has been talk-- he doesn't know who the people were, but 8 they have been around and they wanted to build a dam 9 here by the falls. There is people that use Kakisa 10 River for fishing in the fall time from Kakisa Lake and 11 also from Fort Providence. Where the Kakis a River 12 empties into Beaver Lake along the , 13 there is shallow water for quite a ways out into the 14 lake. But if they, you know, build a clam here, the 15 water will get less and less shallow. There will he no 16 fish for anybody and they can't even go fishing for 17 winter time. That's why they are against the building 18 of the dam. 19 If they build a dam here, he 20 was told that the river will flood and above the ground 21 that we are sitting on now would flood at least ten 22 feet over the banks. This is the only high ground 23 around the lake because everywhere else it's flat. 24 It's flat down that way and it's flat down that way. 25 There's a lot of beaver living that way and there's a 26 lot of beaver this way. If they flood here, they're 27 going to have to move again. If they build a dam, 28 they've got electricity and that. They don't need 29 that. They've done without it so far and they don't 30 bother with it. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7926

1 THE COMMISSIONER: They don't 2 need it here. 3 A Yes. 4 Q In the village. 5 A No, what they use is 6 just gas lamp and that's good enough for them. 7 Q A gas lamp? 8 A Yes. 9 Q The electricity probably 10 won't be for Kakisa. It probably won't be for 11 Providence. It'll probably be for other larger 12 communities like and and Smith 13 and around that area. It's going to damage our fishing 14 grounds and that, and we don't need it. It's not a 15 necessary part of our life. 16 He said, you visit all these 17 houses here and you won't find electric lights hanging 18 on the ceiling or anything like that. They use candles 19 and gas lamps. They buy their own gas for the gas 20 lamps and they don't need it. Nobody's going to come 21 around and dictate to them how they should live and 22 stuff like that. 23 He said that if we had been 24 living in town, had all the modern facilities like 25 everybody else has, we wouldn't be sitting in a dim 26 little room like this. You'll have a lot of light to 27 write your notes and that. 28 They built this place for the 29 Indian agent. He had his office in the back here. If 30 we had been some place else with all the modern Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7927

1 conveniences, then everybody wouldn't be crowded like 2 that in here. 3 He said he'll talk again 4 later. He like to thank you for listening to him. He 5 said maybe the old people here would like to say 6 something also. 7 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you 8 very much Mr. Simba. 9 (WITNESS ASIDE) 10 PHILIP SIMBA, sworn; 11 THE INTERPRETER: He said I am 12 the oldest person here in this room. I'm from a 13 different generation than these people are. I was born 14 around the Nahanni area. I grew up at 15 with my grandfather. I am from that region. 16 He said that he lived with 17 his grandfather and he was about four years old when he 18 seen the way that people live. The kind of life that 19 we live had been pretty hard. He'd lived through it. 20 What they lived on, there was no tents like you see 21 today canvas tents. They had moose hide tents. 22 There was no canoes. They 23 made their own birch bark canoes and they made their 24 own moose hide canoes. This was the kind of life that 25 they had that he lived. He's seen it. 26 Everybody is out in the bush 27 hunting and trapping all winter long. Come springtime or 28 summertime everyone would go to the town or wherever they 29 had a trading post. That's where he has seen all the 30 people gather. This is what he saw with his own eyes. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7928

1 He said at the time there was 2 no money, no dollars and cents like we see today. They 3 had beaver and it was referred to as skin. One skin, 4 or it doesn't matter how much you had. A person could 5 go into town and bring three or 500 skins, He spent 6 maybe one skin but there was actually no change or 7 whatever given back to him. This is the way that he 8 feels that the Hudson's Bay Company cheated the-people 9 and took advantage of their ignorance. 10 The people suffered for that 11 because of the Hudson's Bay Company. 12 He said that the kind of life 13 that they had was hard. They in a sense, provided the 14 Hudson's Bay Company with what they have today. Come 15 September, everybody goes out in the bush hunting. 16 Wherever there is fish, everyone would put in nets and 17 catch all the fish. Some of the people may have shot 18 one moose, some, two, three, four. They cache them. 19 They build a small hut and put them all in there. 20 When the first snow comes, they 21 came into town and the Hudson's Bay has at least 12 men 22 working for him. No, 15. Each man had a team of six 23 dogs. These people went and got the moose. This was 24 provided to the Hudson Bay for his food. In the 25 wintertime they provided him with rabbits and all that. 26 This was how they helped the Hudson's Bay. That's how he 27 grew rich on the misery of the people. I guess. That's 28 how come he's got a beautiful store today. 29 There's a couple of people 30 that he mentioned was Camsell and another man, McLeod. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7929

1 These were the Hudson's Bay managers or traders that he 2 remembered. He said that the last three members that 3 they provided the Hudson's Bay. He doesn't know, 4 doesn't remember for how long this went on because he 5 went in this area with his father then. But he does 6 remember that back then they had sort of a ration 7 system for the Indian people. All the food that they 8 got moose and fish and everything the Hudson's Bay 9 kept -- everything went to the Hudson's Bay. 10 In the summertime once a week 11 they get the ration. Everybody gets flour and sugar 12 and some meat. There was no lard or anything. They 13 had to use fat that was made from moose fat that the 14 people had made. They were given chunks of that. For 15 one week of flour, they used to get a can of fine cut 16 tobacco, one of those empty cans. It's not the size 17 that you see today but it's smaller. They used to get 18 one scoop of that for flour. This was supposed to last 19 them for a week and for sugar. 20 This was given to people who 21 had a lot of children. They'd get one scoop of flour 22 for the week. Also they got a small container, a small 23 little cup of sugar for the week. Every Friday, I 24 guess they had a tower. There was a hell in there. 25 Every Friday night about six o'clock or something, they 26 used to ring it. So everybody used to bring their 27 packsacks over there just to get it. 28 These were the people who 29 were on the employment of the Hudson's Bay. This was 30 not the native people but this was actually the Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7930

1 Hudson's Bay workers. All the moose and fish and 2 everything that was supplied to the Bay was for the -- 3 to maintain and feed the Hudson's Bay crowd. This was 4 what was given to them. 5 There was some old ladies 6 there too, old widows and that. They got part of some 7 of that too. He says he talks about it because he has 8 seen it and because he was there to help some of the 9 old ladies, some of the old widows to get their scoop 10 of flour and scoop of sugar. 11 He said that a long time ago 12 guns that we know of today was no use to the people 13 back then. They used bow and arrow. They had, when 14 the guns were introduced here, it was those old types 15 of guns that had sort of a hammer on it I guess, you 16 know, that they filled to put the powder in the back. 17 You know. It was pretty dangerous I guess but if the 18 men had it long enough, they, you know, they could load 19 it up in a hurry if they had to. But it took a long, 20 long time to get used to it. 21 But then his father received 22 a gun one time. This was one of the newer guns which 23 had pellets I guess. You load it up with pellets and 24 it had the cap on it. The people seen it and they 25 liked it so they went to see the Hudson's Bay manager 26 and the guy who was in charge of the post. The guy 27 promised them that they would, you know, order for all. 28 So it come springtime the freight came and all these 29 guns were unloaded. Now, to buy a gun, they didn't 30 have cash. You bought them with skins. You pile your Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7931

1 skins to the height of the gun, even before you 2 received it. There was all kinds of pelts: beaver, 3 fox, marten; everything, all piled up. He says he has 4 seen this happen. He's seen two people buy guns like 5 that, trapping all winter long. They lust piled their, 6 all their cache for the whole winter and got the gun. 7 This is how they lived. This 8 is how the gun was introduced among the people here. 9 He said this is the kind of life that we live and it 10 has been a hard life. The way we lived a long time ago 11 there was nobody around to dictate to us how we should 12 live and what we should do. Among us, we had a leader. 13 The leader was usually the man who knew most 14 everything, hunting and all that. 15 Aside from him, there was the 16 medicine man. He was usually the one who knew how long 17 he was going to be among the people. Then somebody 18 else, after he was gone, someone else took his place. 19 These were the only two people who were sort of leaders 20 within the Indian group of people who lived. Then 21 little by little, the white man came without telling 22 the people why they were here and why they came. 23 Slowly the change came and then 24 all of a sudden there was an entirely new different, 25 everything was different. Not knowing about and not 26 being prepared for it, you know, everybody was sort of in 27 the air like, you know. This is the way that it still is 28 he says, not understanding what happened. This is sort 29 of a culture of shock I guess you might say. 30 He said at the time nobody Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7932

1 was in a set place. There was a set place I guess for 2 the trading post. Everybody wandered around after the 3 game. Whenever somebody shot a moose or anything, they 4 all would go over there and live there. They had, 5 for the shelter, they had -- they made a shelter out 6 of spruce and whatever was handy then. Then they 7 had a fire in the middle and they made dried meat and 8 that. 9 When it was gone and somebody 10 else shot another moose someplace then they moved over 11 there again. At the time he said nobody was worried 12 about a house. Nobody complained about the cold. 13 Nobody said that it was cold or anything. This, is 14 the way that the people are. He says, "I was one of 15 them". I lived that kind of life. Even today, I still 16 wonder about that. I still marvel at the kind of lives 17 that we had. There was no complaints. Nobody got 18 cold. 19 He says, but today, I live in 20 a house like this and I get cold when I never used to 21 before. I wonder about that. He said back then we had 22 no clothing that we have now. Everybody dressed in 23 rabbitskin. A good hunter usually dressed in beaver. 24 Usually about four big beaver pelts would make a good 25 coat for any man. They had everything was -- even the 26 blankets and that was made out of fur, either beaver or 27 rabbit skin. No one did complain about the cold or 28 anything. 29 He said that he lived among a 30 lot of people and he travelled with all of them. He's Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7933

1 telling you this story because he's seen it with his 2 eyes and he's been through it. He said if he had 3 friends today who is still alive with him, they will 4 tell you the same thing, the same story. 5 There was one or two flu 6 epidemics and a lot of his relatives and friends passed 7 away. But he's telling you this story and he is at the 8 moment kind of leary on saying any more or carrying on 9 because he thinks that maybe some of you think that he 10 is not -- he's just telling you a story because he is 11 all alone now and no old person here to say that he is 12 telling you the truth. 13 THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you 14 very much sir. 15 (WITNESS ASIDE) 16 17 HENRY SIMBA resumed: 18 THE INTERPRETER: Every year 19 it was about the same thing. You go trapping and to 20 get whatever was necessary. You got the pellets for 21 your gun, powder for your gun and maybe if there was, 22 you know, you got used to chewing tobacco or you got 23 used to some tobacco, you had some and there was some 24 tea. 25 If this was gone, you know, 26 you had no more of that, then you went to the trading 27 post to get some. You hunt and you trap all winter 28 long. All your furs was bought in the springtime. 29 There you lived at a fishing camp in the summer. At 30 the end of August, you start again looking for furs: Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7934

1 beaver and bear or lynx or whatever that the Bay wanted 2 to buy. This is what they did all year around, just 3 trapping. 4 He said at the time that the 5 only way you could get anything was to go trapping for 6 your livelihood because at the time nobody -- there was 7 no work and nobody knew about anything about the wage 8 earning or anything like that. 9 Sometimes at the insistence 10 of the Bay manager or at his urging the people went and 11 got more furs so that they can get some, you know, what 12 little they can with their furs. This what they did. 13 He's been through it he says. He's been through it 14 all. 15 He has lived a hard life with 16 depending on our own ability, I guess, to hunt and trap 17 and that. He says I remember a time when we ever first 18 heard about the government was when Mr. Carr some 19 government agent came to Fort Simpson. There he 20 brought in a whole bunch of supplies including cows. 21 He says then they gave the Indians blankets, flour and 22 H bacon and everything else. From that day, our 23 dependency grew. We forgot about what we used to do, 24 our old ways of life. Seeing that they had sort of 25 deleted. or depleted the game in the bush, everybody 26 started making their way to where the government was 27 passing out all these stuff. That's how they started 28 dependency on government grew. 29 More and more this happened 30 until today. The way you see Indian people are today. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7935

1 He said sometimes when he was young and nobody knew 2 anything about a dollar and sometimes someone would 3 find a dollar or someone from the Bay and not knowing 4 that, you know, what, you know, how much it was or what 5 it was worth, they used to give it to the local priest 6 who told them that one dollar was worth four skins. 7 They used that to buy, you know, because the priest had 8 a whole bunch of supplies and that, you know, they 9 bought a little stuff with that. 10 Four skins were worth maybe 11 four quarters or whatever. But he said that it may have 12 been funny for us young guys sitting here and laughing at 13 that but for them at the time not knowing what it was, 14 you know, used to go the priest because he used to give 15 them four skins. It was lots I guess you know, for one 16 thing you can get four. It's was lots to them. 17 THE WITNESS: You give the 18 priest a dollar and then he give you four skins worth. 19 So, when you find a dollar, you get a dollar from the 20 Hudson's Bay, well you give it to the priest. So he 21 give you four skins. He doesn't know what's four skins 22 means. But everybody even if they find a dollar, well 23 they go to the priest. This is four skins and you get 24 back -- I don't know. Maybe four quarters, maybe, I 25 don't know -- maybe four dollars. 26 THE INTERPRETER: 27 He remembers the time that it 28 must have been a little over forty years ago that when 29 they used to live at Tathlina that they first seen the 30 money or the cash that like we know of today. They Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7936

1 heard that there was three traders that did come in from 2 down south into Providence. These people were buying 3 beaver. So they made their way to Providence and when 4 they got there, these people approached them and said 5 that we'll buy your furs. So instead of going to the 6 Bay as usual, they went to these traders; three of them. 7 The traders offered them 30 or 40 or $45 each pelt. 8 That's the only time that they found, you know, they 9 knew the dollar. You know, not actually knowing the 10 value of it but you know, they had it. That's when we 11 first seen money like that. 12 This land is big and that. 13 We are all friends, white, Indians. We passed through 14 this land. We are part of it. I guess at one time or 15 another that we did fight among each other and that. 16 You had to learn down there, which is down south and we 17 had our land here. All of a sudden, there was a lot of 18 white people around. You know, what they were doing we 19 didn't know. But we are all friends and brothers. 20 You're like us. You eat till you're full. You 21 drink till you quench your thirst. We do the same 22 thing. 23 We live off the land and we 24 will continue doing that until the day we die. Here he 25 is referring to himself. He says and there is talk 26 about having the pipeline and that. The people that 27 should be more concerned should be the people from down 28 the river where the pipeline will go through. Maybe it 29 will pass us by here but we will continue living the 30 way we always been whether there is a pipeline or Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7937

1 whether there is no pipeline. We'll keep on living the 2 way we were. 3 The people down the river, 4 the delta area, they are the ones who are more 5 concerned because their area where they live and hunt 6 and that is much smaller than our area here. That's 7 where the pipeline is to start from so they are the 8 ones who are more concerned about it. But we will keep 9 on living the way we are doing here as long as there is 10 no interference from anybody anywhere either by the 11 pipeline, government or anybody else. 12 He said that what his father 13 said about the pipeline, you know, is true and that in 14 that area where the people from Trout Lake probably 15 trap this way too. And the area where the pipeline is 16 supposed to travel across was a good hunting area. 17 Sometimes they do go down there but they don't go too 18 far nowadays because one person cannot travel alone a 19 ways than he used to. 20 The people who are making the 21 most of this pipeline issue are and must he the people 22 that are more affected and that's the people down the 23 delta area. He say and where they go he can show you 24 on a map the Tathline area. 25 He said that whatever that 26 his father said, he has heard this story a lot of times 27 from a lot of old people. Apart from his father he has 28 listened to a lot of stories like this. He said that 29 everything his father said about clothing and 30 everything is true. That he's heard it from a lot of Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7938

1 people. The white man that is here, is he is doing his 2 own business and he is not bothering them at all. If 3 we are to gain any sort of benefit from them being 4 here, then let them be here. 5 He said that we had learned 6 from the white men, educated like them. Some of us had 7 gone to grade 12 and that. He himself, he's gone to 8 only six only because he was sick at the time. Part of 9 our education was French because of the nuns who were 10 here and prayed all the time. 11 He said all these people that 12 you see sitting here had attended a year or two at the 13 convent at the boarding school in Providence and that 14 only when they got of age and were in their 2('s and 15 that, that school actually did start. Family allowance 16 and all that, they never had. 17 Q What? 18 A Family allowance. 19 Q Oh yes. 20 A Never had it you know. 21 Because of that, you know, there actually is not much 22 for them to do except to rely on the way they used to 23 live before. He said that they didn't learn too much 24 where they stayed in the boarding school. You spent 25 half your time praying and that the nuns insisted that 26 we speak French. If we didn't then they put us in the 27 corner for a hour. If you were chewing gum anywhere, 28 they used to put it on -- you know, make you put it on 29 the top of your nose and then put you in the corner and 30 you stayed there for an hour. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7939

1 This was not education. We did 2 not learn anything from that. how are we supposed to 3 learn when we are in a situation like that. That's how 4 we are here and you know, for us there's nothing -- 5 there's actually nothing. We didn't learn anything from 6 that. 7 And that you people who are 8 sitting here are the same us. You got ten fingers, 9 your legs and that. The only difference between you 10 and I is your language and the color of your skin. 11 That's it. Some of you are good people. Some of you 12 are friends. But the only thing is that when we meet 13 you is that we want to talk to you. We can't unless 14 there is somebody close by who speaks your language and 15 can interpret for us. 16 Our trapping area is in the 17 vicinity of where the proposed route of the pipeline 18 is. We have been that way before but in this past 19 winter, we didn't go that far because some of the older 20 people here -- some of them have been sick and they 21 need the young guys around to look after them so they 22 didn't go too far away from here last winter. 23 He said that where the 24 pipeline is to go, maybe we would not be affected by 25 it. But we are in an age now where there is change and 26 there is to be many white men here. We can't gain 27 anything or earn anything by doing no work at all. We 28 have to earn a living like them. They came here 29 without invitation or without any consultation with the 30 native people. They have been doing whatever they were Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7940

1 since then. 2 The people more affected is 3 the people who are in the delta region. The white man 4 can do whatever he wants as long as he doesn't bother 5 this community. But the only thing is that this thing 6 should take place and the white man can do whatever he 7 wants after the land claims thing is settled. Then 8 they can go ahead and do whatever they want. 9 But they can do that without 10 disrupting anybody or bothering anybody then let them 11 go ahead and do it. These people here, living here and 12 a good example about interference in this community is 13 that at one time there was four geologists here who 14 lived in this building here. They paddled around and 15 all that. They put some nets out in the water there. 16 It must have been an inch --one inch mesh. 17 THE WITNESS: Inch and a half. 18 Or two inch. 19 THE INTERPRETER: So they took 20 the fish and they gut them and then took some samples 21 from there and then threw the fish away. They left 22 their nets there for three or four days, you know. The 23 fish were dead in there and getting rotten. These 24 people were probably getting paid for living here. 25 Here they could have hired one or two of these guys 26 here to bring the nets for them and visit the nets and 27 that. 28 Q These were fish 29 biologists are they? 30 A I think so. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7941

1 Q Yes. 2 A But they took samples 3 from, you know, along the shore but everything. 4 Q Yes. 5 A Finally it got to a 6 point where the fish were all in the nets and that, 7 rotten and all that. So they came over here and had a 8 talk with them and told them to leave. They left. 9 They told them to take their 10 nets out and that and so they did and then they left. 11 Another example of this was 12 that a few years ago they had all these guys here were 13 doing some commercial fishing down at the end of the 14 lake for pickerel and that. When they came back one 15 day they came back to bring their catch back in here. 16 When they came in there was a whole bunch of people 17 here young people and that. So he was over at this 18 house and he saw them so he came over here to ask them 19 what they were doing. He found out that these people 20 were from the correctional institute in Hay River. 21 These people said that they 22 were going to build some cabins down along the lake 23 there some place. So, he told them that they shouldn't 24 just come in here, barge into here without talking to 25 the people and telling them what they want and that 26 this area is none of their business and they shouldn't 27 bother it. It's for the people here. So these guys 28 left and they took all their supplies and canoes and 29 everything and went back and left. Since that time, 30 there is nobody that has been bothering them at all. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7942

1 There is a lot of people 2 coming in like this and not bothering consulting the 3 people here in town. This thing has to stop because 4 they are the ones who, you know, benefit from whatever 5 is in the water and whatever is on the land. They put 6 their nets up there for their own use. And that 7 anybody who comes in here and starts fishing and doing 8 that and they are sitting there and watching them while 9 they could be doing that and getting paid for it. All 10 the survey posts put in here, these people in this 11 community planted them and that anybody that comes here 12 should just go to the end of the highway there. 13 Whatever they want to do is to get approval and 14 permission from these people here before they do any 15 sort of fishing or whatever. 16 And that they do some fishing 17 on this, you know, on this lake here. There was one 18 time last spring -- this spring. The fisheries had 19 given them a quota, a limit of 21,000 pounds of fish. 20 They were about to start fishing, commercial fishing 21 and they had made plans. Everybody -- all the young 22 guys here were ready to fish. Then all of a sudden 23 these three men from Hay River came and they were going 24 to do their fishing here to. 25 So he phone Casey Jones in Hay 26 River, telling him not to send these guys down because 27 they were the ones who were going to their fishing here. 28 Q Who is Casey Jones? 29 A He is the -- 30 Q Fisheries officer? Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7943

1 A -- the government -- 2 Territorial Government employment. He's an economic 3 development officer? 4 Q Yes. 5 A He approached Fisheries 6 but Fisheries couldn't do anything because there's no 7 law or any set rules or regulations that prohibits 8 anybody from, you know, fishing. 9 So these guys came in with 10 their nets and they used three inch mesh while the 11 acceptable measurement for any mesh here in this lake 12 is four and a half. So these guys brought in about 30 13 nets and these guys just started. In no time at all, 14 their limit was -- they caught their limit. 15 Then these guys came and left 16 and they left all their nets down there at the end of 17 road there down by the bank. The fishing inspector 18 came and, you know, confiscated about 16 nets all three 19 inch mesh. Part of the blame went on them and left 20 them a bad name with the fisheries people. So here 21 they are with, you know, they could have done all their 22 fishing throughout the summer but their limit was gone 23 in no time at all. So they're just sitting here and 24 wonder at so much an hour they're sitting here for. 25 There's no work at all here 26 and they learned to pray when they were in school. 27 That's all they do there and I get paid for it all. 28 Q Praying comes in handy. 29 THE WITNESS: We expect the 30 pipeline any time. We get a free gas for it. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7944

1 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, please 2 do. 3 (WITNESS ASIDE) 4 JIM THOM, resumed: 5 THE WITNESS: What I was just 6 saying here was that there was two person that was on 7 that land use research in Kakisa here, One of them was 8 Betty Menicoche and Rufus Moses who did the interview 9 with the people here. There was twelve of them, twelve 10 able men that did all their trapping during the -- that 11 were between the ages of 30 to about 40 I guess, 45. 12 There are just only about ten of them now -- ten able 13 person that are doing all their trapping year round. 14 I was just explaining to 15 them that what you see on this map is just where they 16 did all their trapping during the winter and the 17 spring. 18 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 19 A Trapping seasons. I 20 said like most of them did all their trapping way up 21 towards Trout Lake but later years, I guess they've 22 just been up to this area. There main concern was just 23 right up to where the flows. They've been 24 going through all this. This area here is a real good 25 beaver country and that where they're, -- you notice 26 that they're -- 27 Q To the west of Tathlina 28 Lake. 29 A Yes. That's where 30 they're doing all their -- that's where they do all Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7945

1 their spring hunting and that. Some of them have been 2 to do the west end of the lake where they have all 3 their old camps situated right over here I was 4 explaining to them that whatever they trap along their 5 traplines were all marked on the map. There is lynx, 6 marten. There is wolverine, weasel, squirrel, beaver 7 and whatever sometimes we call "chicken on the way" or 8 traffic. Just whatever they get along their traplines. 9 Some of them look -- it's a 10 good place also for moose and that's where you have 11 quite a bit of marks where there have been getting all 12 their luck with their hunting and killing moose. 13 (WITNESS ASIDE) 14 HENRY SIMBA, resumed: 15 THE INTERPRETER: He said that 16 he's been up to here, up to this lake here with that 17 geologist. He said that they came out here with the 18 geologist and that's where their canoe tipped over. So 19 along this route a helicopter picked them up. But 20 while they were along this route he said they were 21 counting all the beaver dams. He mentioned to the 22 person that he was with while they were doing all this. 23 He mentioned that there was supposed to be a pipeline 24 coming along through here. 25 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. 26 Ellwood, do you just want to point out the route of the 27 pipeline on that map? Mr. Ellwood is with Foothills, 28 one of the pipelines and he's just here to listen to 29 what you have to say. But if you can just draw it with 30 your finger along it. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7946

1 MR. ELLWOOD: The route comes 2 just past Fort Simpson here, running down through here 3 and out like that. 4 A But also Henry said all 5 along these two lakes this a real good beaver country 6 there. 7 MR. ELLWOOD: There is another 8 pipeline, the lateral pipeline to serve the communities 9 here, from about here the pipeline goes across to Fort 10 Providence and then along the lake and along the 11 highway. 12 THE COMMISSIONER: Maybe I 13 should explain that Mr. Ellwood's company wants to 14 build a pipeline that will go over to Providence, Pine 15 Point, Hay River, Yellowknife and Rae so they have to 16 take a pipeline from the main line across to Providence 17 and then along the river. That's one of the reasons 18 why we are here because that pipeline they want to 19 build according to the way Mr. Ellwood just described, 20 it seems to go through an area that you are concerned 21 about. 22 Excuse me, do you want to 23 trace the course of that lateral again just as best you 24 can. 25 MR. ELLWOOD: It would run 26 from a point about in here towards Providence and 27 then goes along highway there and goes here across 28 the highway but still on this side of Birch Lake so 29 it goes up here and about somewheres just to the 30 north of the west end of the lake here to up to Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7947

1 about Trainor Lake. 2 THE COMMISSIONER: You'd 3 better tell me if a consensus has been reached here. 4 (WITNESS ASIDE) 5 I. THOM sworn; 6 THE WITNESS: No I am saying 7 what Foothills saying that it was just a proposed route 8 that they were having and then showing them the map. 9 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 10 A Showing on the map where 11 they are proposing to have the pipeline. They are said 12 what they "concerned with is that if they were in the 13 area surrounded by the pipeline then they would be 14 concerned. But they said that's only just they don't 15 want no pipeline till there's a land claims settlement. 16 until it's finished after a settlement is settled. 17 Like it seems just to show where 18 the pipeline is it looks easy but he said -- what they 19 are really want to say is that they don't want to, you 20 know, 21 no pipeline until this land settlement is settled. 22 THE COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry 23 Chief, I missed that. 24 CHIEF CANADIEN: I said they 25 re not talking about it until they've settled their 26 land claim then they can do what they want. 27 THE COMMISSIONER: O.K., I 28 mean O.K., I understand. 29 WITNESS SIMBA: You should 30 talk to us. Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7948

1 WITNESS THOM: Yesterday 2 when I did that land -- explained it to you about 3 that land use research map, one thing I forgot to 4 mention was that the people that were around the 5 Providence area were all in family groups like along 6 in the farthest corner there were all the Gargans 7 and then coming into Big Point like I mentioned like 8 the Landrys and further up the the 9 Minozas and the Landrys about 5 miles. 10 11 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Landry 12 was the old man that spoke last night? 13 A Yes. This area right 14 over here, that's where we were all living in families. 15 I sort of forgot to mention that. 16 Q Yes. 17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we 18 would all like to thank you for coming here and 19 listening to them. Maybe at the same time, in the 20 future that they would like to -- if something else 21 comes up and they would like to talk about it then we'd 22 certainly like to add on to what they have said here. 23 You know, get in touch with you or whatever. 24 Q O.K. 25 A There is not too many of 26 them that live here and that but all that we talk about 27 can happen only after the land claims is settled. We 28 don't know the course of action that is to he taken by 29 the Brotherhood because we've just had a new leader 30 now. But we live ourselves here with nobody telling us Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7949

1 what to do with that place. If we had lived in another 2 place and had all the conveniences of anybody else or 3 anywhere else, possibly we won't have our meeting in a 4 little garage like this but we thank you for coming, 5 everybody. 6 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, thank 7 you. This is a nice place to have a meeting. You 8 shouldn't apologize for it and I am sure that everyone 9 that came with me is very comfortable to be here and 10 has appreciated the chance to see Kakisa Lake. 11 You know, my job is to find 12 out what would happen if we built a gas pipeline and 13 established an energy corridor in the Mackenzie Valley. 14 That means I have to try to figure out the impact that 15 one people have upon another. I know a lot about white 16 people and white society because that's where I come 17 from. That's where my roots are but I want to 18 understand the native people and their roots. In that 19 way we can judge what the best thing is to do today. 20 I have listened closely to 21 you and I think I understand how you feel about things. 22 Let me just say that for me it's a great advantage to 23 come to these places and here what the people who live 24 here want to tell me. That way I don't have to read 25 about it in books or just listen to the people who come 26 to Yellowknife to tell me what they think about it all. 27 It means that I get the chance to hear from you people 28 who live throughout this country and whose future will 29 be most affected. 30 So thank you again and if you Allwest Reporting Ltd. Burnaby, B.C. 7950

1 have anything to add, you can get in touch with me 2 through Chief Canadien or through Mr. Jackson whom you 3 know. You should feel that you have every right to let 4 me know if there is anything you wish to say that you 5 forgot to say today. So thank you again, maybe you 6 could translate that. 7 (INTERPRETER INTERPRETS ABOVE) 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO AUGUST 9TH, 1976) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30