Thursday Volume 546 21 June 2012 No. 18

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Thursday 21 June 2012

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2012 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 1001 21 JUNE 2012 1002 House of Commons Backbench Business

Thursday 21 June 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock Mr Speaker: Before I call Mr Laurence Robertson, let me point out that the debate is heavily subscribed PRAYERS and I have therefore imposed a five-minute limit on each Back-Bench contribution after that of Mr Robertson.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair] 9.34 am

BILL PRESENTED Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con): I beg to move, That this House has considered the matter of the work of the SMALL CHARITABLE DONATIONS British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) I thank you, Mr Speaker, and the Backbench Business Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Deputy Prime Committee for this opportunity to discuss the work of Minister, Mr Secretary Hunt, Danny Alexander, Mr Mark the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, which I shall Hoban, Mr David Gauke, Miss Chloe Smith and Mr Nick refer to as BIPA. I also thank my right hon. Friend the Hurd, presented a Bill to provide for the making of Minister and other right hon. and hon. Members for payments to certain charities and clubs in respect of certain attending the debate—the good turnout demonstrates gifts made to them by individuals, and for connected that the work of this body is recognised. purposes. BIPA was started in 1990 as the British-Irish Inter- Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time Parliamentary Body to foster a common understanding Monday 25 June, and to be printed (Bill 28) with explanatory between the bodies represented on it. It has 68 members, notes (Bill 28-EN). including 25 from both Houses of the UK Parliament, 25 from both Houses of the Irish Parliament, 15 from the United Kingdom’s devolved institutions, and one member from each of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey, so a wide area is well represented. A parallel body at ministerial level, the British Irish Council, was set up in 1998, and at this stage it is appropriate for me to say that BIPA seeks closer links with that body. BIPA holds two plenary sessions a year, one in the UK and one in Ireland. The 44th plenary session was held in Dublin between 13 and 15 May, and, not for the first time, it was attended by the Taoiseach. In addition, all members present were welcomed to the President’s official residence at Phoenix park by Mr Michael D. Higgins, the President of Ireland. I would like to quote from a speech made by the Taoiseach to BIPA: “I know from my own time as a member of the association the importance of the work of BIPA. Now that I am Taoiseach, I can see very clearly the contribution you continue to make in support of peace, prosperity, reconciliation and political friendships and understanding between these islands.” A strong commendation indeed. The Taoiseach referred to the importance of British-Irish relations, and his sentiments are borne out by the facts, especially with regards to securing the peace in Northern Ireland and trade. The UK is by far Ireland’s biggest export destination and, in turn, Ireland is the UK’s fifth largest export market. As the Prime Minister has said on many occasions, we export more to Ireland’s 4.5 million people than we do to the third of the world’s population in China, India, Russia and Brazil. That important statistic is rather worrying in some ways, and I suggest not that we reduce our trade to Ireland, but that perhaps we should try to increase it to further corners of the world. Even in recent times of economic difficulty in 2010-11, trade between Ireland and the United Kingdom actually increased. 1003 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1004

[Mr Laurence Robertson] to match the enthusiasm and commitment of the Irish, and we will hold the 45th plenary session, from 21 to Issues such as trade were discussed at the plenary 23 October, in Glasgow. We look forward to going session in May by a number of speakers, including there. I said that there had been a trade or economic senior executives from Glen Dimplex, Greencore and theme to the plenary in Dublin, and we hope to follow a GlaxoSmithKline, and the importance of trade links similar line in Glasgow, when I am sure we will be was referred to by the Irish Finance Minister. The treated to many interesting lectures and discussions plenary session also heard from the Irish Minister for about some of the products we might find in Scotland. Transport, Tourism and Sport, who referred to the fact I would like to thank our staff on this side of the Irish that 600 passenger and freight services and 60 air routes sea, Robin James and Amanda Healy, for their hard run between the UK and Ireland every week, resulting work in putting all the meetings and everything else in 2.9 million British visitors to Ireland last year alone. together. Without their help, we could not hold the Those are startling statistics. meetings. We will be visiting Dublin next week for The Irish Health Minister told the plenary session steering committee meetings, and on Monday we will that Ireland is looking to learn from the UK’s experience discuss how we might move things forward, including of health care. We heard from Darina Allen from how we might bring to the Governments’ attention the Ballymaloe cookery school about good healthy food, work of the steering committees, as was mentioned and from Dr Maurice Manning on the importance of earlier. correctly handling the decade of centenaries that we are Some people consider BIPA a talking shop, but, now in. given the history between the two countries, particularly Interestingly, the plenary session also approved a the terrible experiences in Northern Ireland, I would motion by the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul suggest that talking is extremely important for relations Murphy), a former co-chair of BIPA, which expressed with Ireland and within Northern Ireland. Had we not concern about the proposal to close the RTÉ’s offices in had people talking in the past, we would not have London. I hope he will raise that matter in a few achieved the relative peace we have in Northern Ireland—I minutes if he catches your eye, Mr Speaker. Finally, the say “relative”, because challenges still lie ahead. Just work of the four sub-committees—on sovereignty matters, last night on “Newsnight”, there was a harrowing report European affairs, economic affairs and environmental about some activities in parts of Northern Ireland. and social affairs—reported to the plenary session. I There are people who want to wreck the peace process thank committee members for their work in preparing and return to the bad old days, so I would suggest that if reports on important issues, not least one on flooding, BIPA is a talking shop, it is a very useful talking shop, which is an issue close to my heart, given that I represent because it enables us to get together with people who Tewkesbury. perhaps have different views and aspirations, but who all agree that democracy and talking to each other are Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I thank the hon. the way forward. Gentleman for giving way and for his assiduous activities as co-chair. Does he believe, like me, that we need to As many people in Ireland said and continue to say, take the sub-committee reports further in Parliament relations between our two countries are at an all-time and the devolved Assemblies? A lot of hard work has high. I was greatly privileged last year to be in Ireland gone into them, but perhaps more action should sometimes for part of Her Majesty’s visit, and I have to say it was come out of them. an awesome visit. The success of the visit, of course, was down to Her Majesty’s enormous dedication and Mr Robertson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his extraordinary talents, but it was also down to the extremely very good intervention. Developing close relationships warm welcome and wonderful preparations on the Irish with the British-Irish Council would be a start, and we side. It really cemented relations to an extent that had could report to that body about the assembly and not been seen before. We look forward to future relations sub-committee’s work. I wanted this debate to highlight with Ireland. If BIPA has made a contribution to the the existence of BIPA and its work. There is a long way development of peace in Northern Ireland and the close to go to get the Government to take on board what we relations between the UK and Ireland, I am pleased to are doing, but at least this is a start—the Minister is be part of that, and I pledge to work as hard as I can to here and listening—and I certainly think the hon. help steer the organisation in the right direction. Gentleman makes a very good point. I do not want to speak for any longer, because several The plenary session was expertly arranged by the Members wish to speak, but I want again to thank you, Irish members and secretaries. In particular, I pay tribute Mr Speaker, and the Backbench Business Committee to my co-chairman, Joe McHugh TD, who is a skilled, for allowing us the time to debate this issue and to bring dedicated and helpful co-chairman, for all his work and to Parliament’s attention this body’s work and to report the support he gives me as a relatively new co-chairman. the news of its most recent activities. The legendary Irish hospitality was also on full display at the plenary session, as I am sure everybody can Mr Speaker: The right hon. Member for Torfaen imagine, including at the President’s house. The Irish (Paul Murphy) will also have 10 minutes in which to take BIPA very seriously, as was reflected in the Taoiseach’s speak. speech that I read out earlier, but there has been suspicion and concern in the past—this is no reflection on the 9.46 am work done by my predecessors and previous BIPA members—that it is not taken quite as seriously on the Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I am grateful for this British side. That is one reason I wanted this debate and opportunity to speak and to follow the hon. Member why I am so pleased to have secured it. We are striving for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who is doing a very 1005 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1006 good job as the co-chair of this important assembly. look seriously at how the British-Irish Council will deal The Backbench Business Committee should be with BIPA in years to come—I also hope that the congratulated, because this is the first time in 22 years Minister will refer to that in the wind-up. When I was a that the assembly’s work has been debated on the Floor member of the British-Irish Council, I addressed the of the House of Commons. It is none too soon, because assembly on the very issue of improved relations. I the assembly, formerly known as the British-Irish Inter- admitted then—and I still believe—that there is certainly Parliamentary Body, has played an enormous role in room for improvement. the development of peace in Northern Ireland and in I wish to conclude on the issue of RTÉ and the relations between Britain, Ireland and, in more recent presence of that important television and radio company years, the devolved Parliament and Assemblies. here in Britain. For many years now it has had a My own involvement, first as co-chair of the body significant presence in Westminster. RTÉ proposes to and then as a Northern Ireland Minister, goes back to close down that presence because of the enormous 1998, when I addressed the body in Dublin not long financial pressures that it is under. I understand that, after the Good Friday agreement was signed. The hon. but members of the assembly have debated the issue in Gentleman rightly pointed to the body’s work from Dublin and an early-day motion has been tabled here in 1990 to 1998, and he was right that it was a talking the House of Commons. It is our belief that RTÉ shop, but before 1990 there was no talking. The whole should still have a presence here in Great Britain, albeit purpose of the body was to bring together parliamentarians not necessarily in its current form. It could be, for from London and Dublin to break the ice in the hugely example, that RTÉ might share an office with another tense relations between Britain and Ireland at the time. television or radio company, just as the BBC does in If Members cast their minds back to the 1990s, they will Dublin. However, given the continuing importance of remember some very difficult occasions, and harrowing British-Irish relations, the enormous significance of the and dreadful events, that had to be dealt with, but, in all Irish diaspora here in Great Britain, the fact that tens of those years, the body stuck it out, talked together and thousands of British people work in Ireland and the went to sessions in Britain and Ireland to deal with political importance of the relationships between these those enormous issues. The assembly, whose first chair islands, it is important that RTE should retain its presence was Peter Temple-Morris, certainly did a tremendous here. I hope that the Minister and the shadow Minister job in helping to bring about peace in Northern Ireland. will be able to comment on that important issue as well. The assembly has taken on a unique new role in The British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly has been a recent years. Although it is called the British-Irish tremendous force for good in the last 22 years. It has Parliamentary Assembly, it brings together parliamentarians certainly helped to improve the peace in Northern Ireland. from the devolved Administrations—from Edinburgh, It has brought together politicians from wide and disparate Cardiff and Belfast—and from Guernsey, Jersey and backgrounds, which, more recently, has meant that it the Isle of Man. That is an important development, has become a forum for parliamentarians from the because no other body in these islands brings together devolved Administrations as well. It has gone from parliamentarians from all those different Administrations strength to strength. I am delighted that we have had and jurisdictions. And it has proved very successful. the opportunity to address this important issue today in Best practice is shared between parliamentarians, and our House of Commons. meetings are held between members of the assembly, whether formally or informally, right across all the 9.53 am islands represented. Mr Robert Walter (North Dorset) (Con): It is a A welcome feature over the past few years has been privilege to follow the right hon. Member for Torfaen the involvement of the Democratic Unionist party. Over (Paul Murphy), who has served both as the British the last number of years its members, as well as members co-chairman and as the Secretary of State for Northern of the Ulster Unionist party, have played an enormous Ireland. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for role in bringing forth the case for Unionism in the Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) on securing this debate. I British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. The Social say that for a number of reasons, one of which has no Democratic and Labour party—and, indeed, Sinn Fein— relation to British-Irish relations. This debate sets an have been members of the assembly for many years as important precedent for this House, because there are a well. It is that enormous wealth of experience of number of parliamentary bodies on which Members parliamentarians from right across the islands that has are represented, but about which we hear very little in made the body completely different from any other. the Chamber, such as the Parliamentary Assembly of Members may recall that the peace process in Northern the Council of Europe, the Parliamentary Assembly of Ireland was divided into three—just like Caesar’s Gaul. the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe The third strand of it was east-west relations—the and the NATO Parliamentary Assembly, as well as the relations between Dublin and London. What was Inter-Parliamentary Union and the Commonwealth envisaged—and what is now in existence—was a Parliamentary Association. I hope that we can perhaps parliamentary aspect to that, namely the British-Irish prevail upon the Backbench Business Committee to Parliamentary Assembly, but also, as the hon. Member consider those bodies as subjects for debates in this for Tewkesbury has said, the British-Irish Council, which House as well. represents the Governments of Britain and Ireland and I pay tribute to two former Members of this House the devolved Administrations. There is, in my view, for the work they have done on the British-Irish room for improvement in relations between the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. We have already heard about Parliamentary Assembly and the British-Irish Council. Peter Temple-Morris—Lord Temple-Morris—who was They both deal with similar issues—relations between the founding co-chairman on the British side. He is to our different countries. I hope that the Government will be commended. I would also like to mention a former 1007 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1008

[Mr Robert Walter] One thing that has come out of what has been said so far is the fact that the United Kingdom and Ireland Conservative colleague, Michael Mates, who, through have never been so close. Her Majesty the Queen had a all the years of the Conservative party being in opposition, lot to do with that. I believe that her visit signalled a was the British co-vice-chairman—a post I now hold—on togetherness that was not there before and that a lot of the Conservative side. He certainly made it his job to hatreds were buried that day when she set foot on Irish rally Conservative Members to participate fully in the soil. The people of Ireland took her to heart, and it has assembly. been said many times since how much they appreciated The interesting thing about those two, and about my her going there. The visit will have a lasting effect on the hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury and me, is that relationship between this country and Ireland. our links with Ireland are very tenuous. We cannot The Irish nation has had a great influence on the west claim family links, through grandparents or great- of Scotland. More than a few people came over during grandparents, but we share a belief that if British and the potato famine and other sad times in Ireland. My Irish people talk together, many of the problems that own grandmother came from Ireland, although, sadly, I have been seen to divide us can actually unite us. In never had the opportunity to meet her and find out her these islands the British and Irish people share history, story. That is my loss, and I need to bear it. There are economic links, a language, a legal system and culture. many people of Irish descent in the west of Scotland, All that was brought together in the recent visit by Her and the rivalry is still there between those on either side Majesty the Queen to Dublin. I hate—I always have, of the divide, although not to the same extent that it and I think everybody in this House would too—the once was. We live as one nation these days and get on IRA and what it brought about, but it had a view that together a lot better. I believe that that is because of the was shared in Dublin and by most Irish people. Although relationship between Ireland and the United Kingdom. I have the greatest of respect for nationalists, whether The leadership that has been shown by both Parliaments they are Irish nationalists, Scottish nationalists or Welsh has had a lasting and increasing effect, on both sides of nationalists, I think they are wrong. However, I admit the Irish sea. that in a democracy they must be able to present their The need for co-operation has never been so great, views, and that is absolutely right. However, there is particularly in times such as these. I say that as one who more that unites us in these islands than divides us. is involved with the BIPA economic committee. Ireland I chair the European affairs committee in the assembly. is important to this country, and we are important to We have recently produced reports for the assembly on Ireland. It is only right, therefore, that we should have EU migrant workers, a problem that both jurisdictions mutual respect for each other and a mutual desire to have had to cope with in the economic downturn. We work with each other. I believe that that co-operation have looked at other European Union policies, in particular, will become even greater in the years to come, and that, some of the EU’s regional policies, whereby apparently as we come out of recession, there will be opportunities disparate regions in different countries have come together on both sides of the Irish sea to build up those relationships to find economic solutions. We are currently looking at even more. the implications of the European convention on human I look forward to a time when BIPA is not only taken rights in all our various jurisdictions. for granted but looked at and listened to in the same I think we do tremendous work, but I want finally to way as other such bodies throughout the world are make a plea to the Minister. I feel that the east-west looked at and listened to. We have brought forward a lot dimension, which includes the British-Irish Council and of good ideas and put many good reports to both the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, should work Parliaments, and I look forward to seeing the Government’s much more closely together. response to our report on small and medium-sized 9.57 am enterprises. It is remarkable that the problems affecting those over the water in Ireland are so similar to the John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab): Let me problems in this country. We are similar, we are the say what an honour it is to follow the hon. Members for same people and we speak the same language. We in Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and for North Dorset Scotland certainly hold Ireland very dear. We have (Mr Walter) and my right hon. Friend the Member for more than a little respect for the country and many of Torfaen (Paul Murphy). Let me also congratulate the us regularly take holidays there. It is important that the hon. Member for Tewkesbury on securing this debate. British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly should go forward, I am vice-chair of committee C in the assembly, for the benefit not only of this House but of the Irish which deals with the economy, a subject that is—if I people. said “popular”, that would probably not be the right word, but it has certainly had a lot of attention focused 10.2 am on it. I hope that both Governments will look at, and take on board, our recent report on small and medium-sized The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo enterprises and the problems they are experiencing. It Swire): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for was an excellent report, and we are going to look at Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and the right hon. Member credit unions next. for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) on securing the debate. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen They are, of course, current and past co-chairs of the said, the next plenary session will be in Glasgow. I can British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and I am pleased assure him and all those attending from this and other to recognise their individual contributions to that important Houses that they will have an excellent time. I know that institution. those who practised drinking Irish whiskey will be My own history with the British-Irish Parliamentary looking forward to the real thing, so I invite them to try Assembly—and the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary it when they come to Glasgow. Body, as it was—goes back some considerable time. 1009 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1010

I attended a plenary session in Cork as long ago as It is instructive to note that the most recent BIPA 2004, when I was a member of the Northern Ireland plenary was taken up not by Northern Ireland politics Affairs Committee under the chairmanship of the then but by consideration of the deepened understanding right hon. Member for East Hampshire, Michael Mates— and co-operation between the British and Irish whom my hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset Governments, and of the commitment given by the (Mr Walter) has mentioned—who also sounded me out Prime Minister and the Taoiseach in March to explore as to whether I would like to become an associate ways of enhancing that relationship even further. member of BIPA, which I subsequently did. I listened with interest to the hon. Member for Glasgow My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset North West (John Robertson) when he talked about the mentioned closer co-operation. I understand that the recent BIPA reports that he had been involved in, and new British-Irish Council standing secretariat, established about the large number of people from Ireland who live in January 2012 in Edinburgh, has met the BIPA secretariat on the west coast of Scotland. I can attest to that fact, to discuss the implementation of the various areas for as the former Conservative and Unionist candidate for improvement. I hope that my hon. Friend will welcome Greenock and Inverclyde in the 1997 election. I fought that as a constructive move forward. The right hon. Greenock and Inverclyde, and they fought back. They Member for Torfaen asked about RTE, a matter that won. Among the many people of Irish descent associated concerns us all. RTE is an independent broadcaster, with Scotland is that great actor, Sir Sean Connery, who and it must make its own decisions, so I cannot comment resides in the Bahamas and supports Scottish independence further on that. from there. It is a nice warm place from which to do it. I Relations between the British and Irish Governments believe that his grandparents came over to the west of and the levels of political stability in Northern Ireland Scotland from Ireland. have greatly advanced since the time I attended that The activities of the recent BIPA plenary built on the meeting in Cork. We are a world away from the situation historic visit by Her Majesty the Queen to Ireland last in 1990 when the British-Irish Inter-Parliamentary Body year. At BIPA in Dublin last month, the Taoiseach was established to provide a forum for parliamentarians called that visit “ground-breaking”. That is only one of based in Westminster and Dublin to discuss areas of many superlatives used to describe the event when it is mutual concern. We can all reflect on those changes and mentioned. When we discuss the current state of British- welcome them wholeheartedly. At that Cork meeting in Irish relations, it is mentioned often. As we continue to 2004, most of the proceedings were taken up by discussions celebrate Her Majesty’s diamond jubilee year, I want to on the prospects for arms decommissioning and the acknowledge again her personal contribution to our need for all the main Northern Ireland political parties relationship with our nearest neighbours. to enter into talks. I look forward, along with the Secretary of State, the BIPA played an important role in developing a level First Minister and others, to welcoming Her Majesty to of understanding between parliamentarians from the Northern Ireland next week. I know that that welcome United Kingdom and our colleagues in Ireland in those will be extended by many thousands of people from years, as the right hon. Member for Torfaen reminded across the community. Indeed, we heard earlier this us. It was set up to get people to talk, when they were week that the supply of 10,000 tickets being distributed not doing so. It is worth remembering that, as we to members of the public by Ticketmaster had been consider BIPA today. At a time when getting together to exhausted within six minutes. Those answering the talk was a huge step for some of the Northern Ireland telephones at the Northern Ireland Office, who have parties, members of BIPA talked and explored ways in been more used to press inquiries over the years about which progress might be made. BIPA’s subsequent expansion one political development or another, have been besieged in 2001 extended the desire to gain mutual understanding by people wanting to know how they too can join in the of each other’s positions to the Northern Irish and celebrations on the Stormont estate. That might not be Welsh Assemblies and to the Parliaments of Scotland, entirely welcomed by my staff on the end of the phones Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man. but it is, I feel, a positive development and a clear It might be difficult or impossible to quantify properly, indication of the high regard in which Her Majesty is but none of us should doubt the value of BIPA. The held in that part of her realm. Secretary of State has been an attendee at several plenaries now. I share his enthusiasm and look forward to attending The BIPA plenary in May discussed the commitment again. Perhaps even more important are the opportunities given by the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach to continued for building relationships offered by talking long into and increasing co-operation. That is essential as both the evenings at BIPA gatherings. As here at Westminster, countries face the economic challenges of which we are having contact in—I shall use a euphemism—a relaxed all, alas, so well aware. Details are already emerging of environment with those whose views we think we oppose increased collaboration on making our businesses more often reveals more shared insights than we realise. That globally competitive, on ensuring that we share progress was certainly my experience over several pints in Cork. I in research and development that is to our mutual would not seek to emulate the record of my right hon. benefit whenever possible, on increasing trade between Friend the Member for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), our countries and on generating sustainable employment but I remember drinking a fair few on that occasion. At as we both seek to grow our way out of these difficult that Cork meeting, our main concern was that the economic times. We are committed, alongside our Irish Northern Ireland Assembly should get up and running friends, to ensuring this is more than a token gesture. again. In 2004, it was two years into a five-year suspension. The outcomes will be discussed at summit level annually, Many issues in Northern Ireland remain to be resolved, and I know that officials across Whitehall are already but we are much further on than we were. engaging with their Irish counterparts. 1011 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1012

[Mr Hugo Swire] developed. This truly is a golden age for British-Irish relations, and while Her Majesty’s visit is the most I have personal experience of the importance of prominent example, there are so many facets to our sharing understanding with colleagues in the Irish relationship that a range of sometimes small but often Government. My discussions with Jimmy Deenihan, significant things are happening on all levels. the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht have, That is because the ties between the UK and Ireland I hope, provided us with a useful basis on which to are bonds of people, places and history. Our shared approach the forthcoming decade of anniversaries and past is complicated, intense and has often been marred commemorations. We know better now than ever before by conflict and division, but in this year, the 100th that a shared understanding of how we might remember anniversary of the third Home Rule Bill and the Ulster and interpret the events of the past has an important covenant, the relationship is transformed. We stand impact on our future direction. We are committed to shoulder to shoulder now as friends and neighbours, ensuring that such anniversaries are handled sensitively, and the special link between our countries has deepened, and in a way that enhances understanding and cohesion widened and developed as we both strive for a fairer, rather than challenges those goals. more equal and more just society. There is so much more I could say about this excellent institution if I had the time. I think that the British and What the UK and Ireland also share are values. The Irish Governments, members of BIPA and its committees, values of Irish people and of the Irish in Britain are my and its attendees share an understanding of the challenges values and those of the people of Britain, too—the we all face. In particular, we can welcome much more importance of fairness, family, looking out for each progress over the years in relation to its work on Northern other, working together, and taking pride in identity, Ireland. pride in community, and pride at playing a part in doing our bit to make society better. The contribution of the On Tuesday, I was pleased to be able to welcome the Irish in Britain to society here is immense in every area First and Deputy First Ministers and potential sponsors of British life—whether it be business, civic society, the of high-profile events in the programme being developed media, culture and arts, and, of course, politics. I see for Derry/Londonderry’s year as UK city of culture in that in my own constituency in Gedling and in the city 2013—just one of the areas of co-operation. Also in of Nottingham. Londonderry, the “Peace One Day” concert today marks the beginning of 12 weeks of celebrations around the I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. I am Clwyd (Chris Ruane), the chair of the all-party group pleased to say that Londonderry is, quite rightly, playing on the Irish in Britain, whose work here in this place on its part tonight in the launch of the Cultural Olympiad. behalf of that community has made such a significant Next week, the Irish Open returns to Royal Portrush for contribution to enhancing the understanding of all of the first time since 1947, and Northern Irish major us. I know that he and others, as the Minister mentioned, winners Rory McIlroy, Graeme McDowell and Darren are working hard at the minute to try to influence RTE, Clarke will be as big an attraction as any of the international the Irish state broadcaster, to retain its London bureau, stars taking part. which is so valued by Irish people in Britain and by those in Ireland with family members living here or In conclusion, I know that colleagues here at Westminster with an interest in British affairs. and in Dublin, and Members from both places who attend the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, will I had the privilege of speaking to the Irish Labour share in the excitement and will welcome the opportunity party’s centenary conference in Galway earlier this year, that the coming months provide for Northern Ireland and on a trip to Dublin recently I met TDs and senators to showcase its many unique and varied attractions to from all parties in the Oireachtas. At each, I was struck the world. by the level of interest in UK politics and the knowledge of the work of MPs and British parliamentarians, and was delighted to hear of their friendships with many in 10.12 am this House. While discussing a wide range of topics Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): I pay tribute to the with them, it was clear to me that we have much in work of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and common on issues such as security, immigration, tourism, to the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) transport and health. It underlined to me the importance for obtaining this important debate and for his work as of working across boundaries as parliamentarians to co-chairman of the assembly. With his colleague from face challenges together. the Irish side, Joe McHugh TD, he has led BIPA with The fact that representatives from the administrations commitment and determination. I also pay tribute to and institutions in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Guernsey, Jersey and the Isle of Man attend BIPA adds Murphy), whose association with BIPA, service to the much to the work of the assembly. Alongside colleagues people of Northern Ireland and involvement with the from the national Parliaments in Dublin and London, island of Ireland is well documented. Indeed, I acknowledge the willingness of BIPA members to encourage engagement all of those involved in BIPA, many of whom are here and co-operation on matters of mutual interest and this morning. concern is of great benefit to us all. There are indeed The relationship between the UK and Ireland is very many difficulties and challenges that face people across special. Although it was once difficult and strained, it these islands. The harsh economic realities impact on has been totally transformed by the peace process in families in London, Dublin, Belfast, Edinburgh and Northern Ireland into a real friendship between close Cardiff in many of the same ways, and sharing experiences neighbours. Her Majesty the Queen’s visit last year and learning can help not just us as parliamentarians showed just how much our bond has deepened and but, more importantly, the people we represent. 1013 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1014

During that visit to Dublin, I went to the national of the British-Irish intergovernmental conference in war memorial in Islandbridge, which commemorates Belfast—another example of the closeness of roles and those Irishmen who died in the world wars. It was an relationships in these islands. Similarly, the UK’s incredibly moving experience, and I was very grateful to ambassador to Ireland, Dominick Chilcott, his predecessor, the Royal British Legion in Ireland for presenting me Julian King, and the deputy head of mission, Andrew with a list of those Irish soldiers who had served in a Staunton, have all made hugely significant contributions regiment closely connected with my own area of to British-Irish relations. I know that I speak for the Nottinghamshire, the Sherwood Foresters. I also met Minister, and indeed for all Members, when I say that the Gaelic Athletic Association in Croke park, and was those individuals are worthy of mention on the Floor of very touched when its president presented me with a the House in recognition of the vital work that they history of the organisation. I was also impressed with have done and are still doing. the work of the GAA in communities across Ireland, We all know that the people of Northern Ireland and and its acknowledgement and efforts to reach out beyond their representatives are still wrestling with the consequences its traditional base in Northern Ireland. of the past as they move forward, and this is no time for Both places are hugely symbolic for many people in us to fail to give them the priority that they both Ireland, but they are also symbols of hope and of the demand and deserve. For our part, we will try our very outworking of the peace process, which has opened best to meet the challenges of supporting the peace them up to those who might not previously have been process, standing up for the people of Northern Ireland, comfortable with aspects of their history. I know that and helping to build the prosperity that its people there are many differing perspectives on that history, deserve. but ultimately it is shared. In that sense, we can choose The House recently debated some of the fantastic either to use the different perspectives of it to entrench things that are happening in Northern Ireland in this division, or we can use them to learn about history, year of 2012. As I said on that occasion, one of the ourselves and each other, and bring communities together privileges of my position is that it enables me to visit in a new understanding of what happened during that Northern Ireland regularly, and to see for myself the troubled past. I know that is the wish of the vast wonderful things that are taking place there. Only a majority of people in all the islands and part of the fortnight ago, I was honoured to join the right hon. mission of BIPA. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds), Diane Dodds It is perhaps the peace process in Northern Ireland MEP and the Lord Mayor of Belfast at city hall to that has both transformed and is the greatest testament witness the culmination of the Olympic torch relay to the new era in British-Irish relations. Labour Members which saw the famous flame travel throughout Northern will speak up for peace and progress, as the Minister Ireland and also visit Dublin. Is there a better metaphor and we all do, but we do so particularly as the party in than the great symbol of the Olympic flame for government that helped, with others, to bring about the the interconnectedness of all of us in these islands, the Good Friday agreement and all that flowed from it. progress that we have made, and our hope for the East-west relations and the forging of new alliances future? across all the devolved Administrations and between Next year Derry will become the first UK city of the UK and Irish Governments was an important part culture. I was delighted to visit it with my hon. Friend of that. the Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan), and to meet As the Opposition, we will hold the Government to some of those who were involved in preparing for what the promises made to help to deliver a real peace promises to be a fantastic 12 months. Indeed, only this dividend for Northern Ireland. We will also, of course, week I joined the Minister of State at a celebration of give our support to the Government in enhancing and the UK city of culture here in Parliament. developing relations between the UK and Ireland, As shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, particularly in relation to Northern Ireland. Although in the short time available to me I have concentrated my much progress has been made, we must make sure that remarks on the contribution that BIPA has made to the the political focus does not prematurely move on. We peace process and to British-Irish relations in that context. need to continue to work together on Northern Ireland However, I know that its role goes far beyond that. It and, as I have said before, in recognising continuing has the potential to develop and add to its work, and, progress, we still need to understand the threats that by doing so, to enhance the work of those in the House remain and recognise the special circumstances that of Commons and in all the other legislatures that make exist. up its membership. I look forward to helping it to As the Irish President, Michael D. Higgins, said at continue that great work, and I know that all Members the reception he hosted for BIPA in Dublin last month, on both sides of the House remain steadfast in their “while it is only right that we celebrate how far we have come, and support of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly how close and strong the relationships across these islands remain, and committed to its mission. we must not allow any complacency to dislodge our work or deflect from our efforts.” 10.22 am I know the President would be pleased to hear his words echo through the work of the embassy of Ireland here Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD): I am grateful to in London; the efforts and friendship of Ambassador the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) for Bobby McDonagh are valued by me and many others in securing this valuable debate. I made my first visit to this House. I know, too, that all Members will join me in BIPA in Dublin a couple of months ago as a new thanking his deputy, Barbara Jones, for her work over member, and the address from the Taoiseach was a the last number of years and wishing her all the very tremendously important, satisfying and gratifying experience best as she takes up her new role in the joint secretariat for me. I was interested and impressed by his and the 1015 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1016

[Stephen Lloyd] Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson) and the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) on securing Irish coalition Government’s approach to the very difficult the debate. economic climate, and the way in which the Government As has already been pointed out, for many years the were dealing with the problems. The assembly’s discussion Democratic Unionist party did not participate in BIPA. of a range of issues affecting both Ireland and the I do not want to go over the history in too much detail, United Kingdom was also important and interesting. but I think it important to put the debate in context. I am half-Irish myself. I come from Northern Ireland The predecessor of the current assembly was seen by and have spent most of my time in the north rather than Unionists as being responsible for the Anglo-Irish the south, but have studied the history of both north agreement, whose legacy poisoned political relations in and south over its many tumultuous years. When I was Northern Ireland for many years and led to many invited to join BIPA, my Irish side—my mother’s side of difficulties in the Province. Thankfully, however, we the family—felt proud to be involved in an assembly have come through those difficulties, and in 2001 BIPA which, as others have said today, has achieved so much was established. during the last 20 years. During the DUP visit to BIPA in 2006, I met members As I listened to the Taoiseach’s speech, one thing in of it along with our current leader, Peter Robinson, and particular occurred to me. Let me echo a call that has a number of colleagues. We were not full participants, come from a number of Members today.I value enormously but expressed our belief that there was a role for a body the support that BIPA has received from the Minister which would improve east-west inter-parliamentary relations and the Secretary State, and also from the last Government. and would involve devolved parliamentarians as well as However, I think that it would be a wonderful opportunity Members of the Irish Republic and United Kingdom for our own Prime Minister to address a future assembly Parliaments, and we made clear that when devolution meeting and to afford us the same the courtesy that we was restored on an appropriate basis, we would play a were afforded by the Taoiseach in Dublin, and I shall be full role in BIPA as currently constituted. lobbying for that. When devolution was restored on terms that were acceptable to the people of Northern Ireland, we One of my colleagues referred to some of the security participated fully from that moment on, just as we have issues that still affect Northern Ireland, and in that participated in the Northern Ireland Assembly and the context I believe that BIPA will have both an economic Northern Ireland Executive. When our party says that and a political role long into the future. The next BIPA we will enter arrangements and commit ourselves to conference will take place in Glasgow in a few months’ them fully, we stick to our word. We believe that Northern time. I look forward to attending it, and to hearing what Ireland is the better for the current stability in Northern the First Minister of Scotland will say when he addresses Ireland, in the Assembly and the Executive, and in this the assembly. inter-parliamentary body. Given the long-standing links between both islands—the United Kingdom and Ireland—I believe that BIPA will Mr Walter: I welcome the DUP’s participation, of have a strong and lengthy future. I know that some Irish course. The British-Irish Council and its relationship people who have been in Britain for many years are with the assembly was mentioned earlier. Is the right concerned about some of the challenges posed to the hon. Gentleman in favour of the assembly having a British Government by the austerity programme, and I closer working relationship with the BIC and exercising too am concerned about the possibility of cuts in the some kind of parliamentary oversight of it? financial support that the Government provide for the diaspora Irish in Britain. I am sure the Minister would Mr Dodds: The BIC is meeting today in Stirling, and agree that we should protect that support irrespective of our First Minister and other Ministers are taking part, the financial challenges we face, because it demonstrates dealing with important issues such as what is happening the strength of the bond between Britain and the Irish. I in the devolved regions in respect of youth unemployment, shall keep a close eye on the position. marine energy technology and other areas where regions and Governments can learn best practice from each I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury other. I have no difficulty in that relationship between that we must encourage the Irish Government to retain the assembly and the BIC developing further. I listened RTE in London and in the United Kingdom, where it carefully to what the Minister said about the discussions plays an important role. I, too, think that RTE needs to that are taking place and I welcome that. come up with slightly more flexible working arrangements, It is good that there is co-operation and communication which would cut costs while allowing a very important at ministerial and parliamentary level, and I pay tribute broadcasting service to continue. to DUP Northern Ireland Assembly Member Jim Wells, It is a privilege to be a new member of BIPA, and I who plays a very active role in that respect. I note in look forward to being a member for many years to passing—I will make no further comment on this—that come. there are no representatives from the Northern Ireland parties in this House on BIPA. That is not necessarily a bad thing because we are trying to create a body that 10.27 am encompasses all the relationships. It is not focused primarily on north-south; it addresses east-west issues, Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): I am pleased too, as the former chairman of that assembly, Lord to be able to take part in a debate which I am sure Cope, said in October 2011: represents the highlight of today’s parliamentary business “The British-Irish parliamentary meeting has taken on a much for you, Mr Speaker. I can think of no other occasion wider dimension in recent years. It used to be all North-South but today that will outshine it. I congratulate the hon. now it’s east west—that’s the main focus.” 1017 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1018

I welcome that. It represents the appropriate way forward exports rose by 4% in 2011, and went on to grow for addressing issues such as trade, as the co-chairman strongly in the first months of 2012. Most of that has of BIPA, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), come from SMEs, but it also comes from the mentioned. The hon. Member for Glasgow North West pharmaceutical and chemical sectors. (John Robertson) talked about his work on small and As I have an interest in the SME sector, I elected to medium-sized businesses. These are important matters serve on the economic affairs group, along with the that need to be discussed and taken forward at inter- hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson). parliamentary level. The primary focus of all our We looked at how well the Irish are adapting. There are constituents now is economic concerns, such as trade, 198,500 SMEs in Ireland, employing 1.2 million people. rather than political issues. Ireland’s central bank says SMEs face significantly tougher In this context, we should mention that the Irish lending conditions than similar firms elsewhere in the Republic recently received a massive bail-out, courtesy eurozone. It also says that demand for credit is no of British taxpayers. We supported that because we different in Ireland from elsewhere in Europe, but the believe it is in our interests to ensure that the Irish Irish SME sector faces challenges in paying back its economy recovers. Nevertheless, that serves as a reminder borrowing, with problems in respect of 30% of loans. of the new context for relations between the United The latest research by central bank economists shows Kingdom and the Irish Republic. that while demand for credit among Irish firms is at, or We still face many challenges. The Minister and others above, the eurozone average, the lending conditions referred to the dissident threat. The Opposition spokesman, imposed by the banks are significantly tougher in terms the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), pointed of collateral requirements, interest rate charges, size of out we must not be complacent and take for granted the loans available and rejection rates. BIPA has been addressing progress we have made. We must remain focused on the those issues of late. important work that goes on in Northern Ireland in We are looking at the impending funding gaps, too. building peace and in moving the political process forward. Between now and the end of 2016, banks will be unable Members of this House must not think everything in to supply between £84 billion and £191 billion of the Northern Ireland is now settled; there are still many finance needed to support the growth in the UK economy. challenges. However, there is no doubt that forums such as BIPA, the BIC and others that bring together John Robertson: The report that was produced was parliamentarians and Ministers make a major contribution very good, but does the hon. Lady agree that the Irish to building peace and maintaining political stability. side seemed to take it much more seriously than the British side, and that we would like the Minister and the 10.33 pm British Government to be a wee bit more enthusiastic Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con): The British-Irish about what BIPA is trying to do? Parliamentary Assembly’s mission is to promote co-operation between political representatives in Britain Esther McVey: I am not sure that I agree that the and Ireland. It is a much-needed group, promoting not Irish are looking at it more seriously, but they are ahead only co-operation but an understanding of our cultural of the curve. They have been through the turmoil in links and our broader interdependence. As has been advance of us, and there is much that we can learn from mentioned, 42% of Irish exports are to the UK and what has happened there. They also realise how tough it Ireland is Britain’s fifth largest trading partner. That is for small companies to get money from the banks. I underlines our financial interdependence. hear similar stories from small businesses in the UK, I come from Liverpool, where almost all of us have including locally in Wirral West. Irish roots—hence the city’s name, “the capital of Ireland.” We have deep family ties. In common with many other Stephen Lloyd: Across the water, Labour is in coalition families, my ancestors will have landed at Liverpool with Fine Gael, because Labour recognises that difficult port in the 1800s. Two brothers married two sisters and decisions need to be made in respect of the economy. so the family journey began. Does my hon. Friend agree that politicians in southern Ireland are being more inclusive and constructive in There are now new ties as a result of Liverpool, dealing with the serious problems they face? Dublin and Cork all having become the capital of culture—Liverpool became the capital of culture in Esther McVey: We will all deal with our economic 2008. This led to an explosion in construction in those difficulties in different ways, and we all have to agree cities. The consequent property boom was fuelled by about the difficulties, admit to them and see what is on massive lending by the banks. When the property market the horizon. We are looking here at how we move collapsed, the Irish banking system was plunged into forward and what we are going to do. There is no point crisis. There is much to learn from that. putting our heads in the sand and thinking that conditions The Irish Government carried out a sizeable fiscal are easy for small and medium-sized enterprises, because consolidation, which they are continuing. Ireland’s success they are very tough indeed. What is reported can sometimes in cutting its deficit, shrinking its banks and returning be very different from the actual practicalities and to modest economic growth has distinguished it from realities of the situation, which some of us are probably other parts of the eurozone that were also built on a hearing about from our small businesses. That was very construction boom. Given our links with Ireland, it is much reflected in the conversations in BIPA’s economic important that we have constant dialogue so we can committee, as well as in what we are hearing over learn from each other. here. People were looking forward, and that is what we What have the Irish done to get out of their economic have to do. We have heard the issues and we know the crisis? They have developed their small and medium-sized economic turmoil we are going through, but we need to enterprises, and they have been increasing exports. Ireland’s work out the steps to take to move forward. 1019 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1020

Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) in many ways, opened up possibilities for politics in (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that this is not just Northern Ireland and indeed between north and south. about trade, because a series of issues associated with That is why I want to pay tribute to all those who made our relationship with Europe, fishing and other such a huge contribution to British-Irish relations in this matters, are very important? context. The right hon. Member for Belfast North mentioned Esther McVey: I do agree with that, and I shall now the fact that, peculiarly, no Northern Ireland Members discuss my recommendations. What we were looking of this House are members of the assembly; we seem to for was: the aggregation platform to give SMEs access be banned persons. Four Members of the House of to the capital markets; an increase in the number of Lords who live in Northern Ireland are members of the private placement investors in the UK market through assembly, and a further one is an associate member. an industry-led initiative; encouragement for more retail Apparently, if someone from Northern Ireland has a investment in corporate bonds issued by UK companies; mandate, they are somehow subversive and are not and more private equity and support for all businesses, accepted for the purposes of that assembly—I regret which we are in fact doing here in the UK with all the that. As the one party that was always on the body and latest seed investment funds. So I think it is important that first advocated such a thing, we perhaps feel a wee for Ireland and the UK that we continue with our bit peculiarly disadvantaged in this regard. co-operation and continue learning from each other, because we are so interdependent and both countries As has been pointed out, great work has been done in need that for our continued growth and prosperity. many of the reports. I also wish to endorse what the hon. Member for Tewkesbury and the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) have said: we need to get the 10.41 am assembly better connected with the work of the British-Irish Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): Hon. Members will Council. I am talking about not just taking reports not be surprised to learn that I have a different view of from BIC and tracking its work, but acting as more of a history from the right hon. Member for Belfast North policy outrider at times for BIC, exploring some of the (Mr Dodds), so I will quickly record that without long issues, and perhaps scoping some of the problems and rehearsing it. making suggestions about how things might be looked at or advanced. Many hon. Members, including the current chairman, the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), have The marine environment is one of the areas we rightly paid tribute to those who first established BIPA—in should look at, as that is one thing that all eight fact, it was a tier first, then it was a body and now it is Administrations in these islands and their territories an assembly. It should be remembered that all of them actually share. The different jurisdictions have made have made a huge contribution to changing the nature moves towards various marine legislation and have of relationships and attitudes between and within these made different moves on marine management organisations. islands, and they reinforced a dynamic that did spur the Surely we need to ensure that we have a coherent peace process in many positive ways. It should also be framework for marine management, where the regimes remembered that when John Hume first argued that are at least compatible and comparable. there were three sets of relationships at the heart of our The issue of communications is another that should problem—those within Northern Ireland, within Ireland have been addressed more heavily at a British-Irish and between Ireland and Britain—which he said all level. We are left with the situation in Ireland where we needed to be accommodated and reflected in the solution, have two, rival digital platforms. I have a border that was contested. It is now accepted by everybody, constituency, where people have to buy one device if and those three sets of relationships are the three strands they want to get their Saorview digital TV and another at the heart of the Good Friday agreement. if they want to get Freeview. That is nonsense and it has been a failure. The issue could have been addressed only Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): I apologise at the British-Irish level, not at the north-south level. for the fact that I was not here earlier. May I say to the hon. Gentleman that when we met for the first time in Also on communications, the digital economy presents February 1990, when the troubles were continuing, and challenges and opportunities, some of which also extend crimes and atrocities were being committed by the IRA to things such as minority languages. We need to think and loyalist paramilitaries, we were not certain whether about how our digital platform is catering for the different it would be the only meeting we would hold, as both minority languages and the Celtic regions within these sides were so apprehensive? I am so pleased—obviously, islands. So there is more that we should be thinking given that I later become a co-chairman—that we were about in these areas, and the assembly again provides an highly successful in continuing the dialogue for the first area where we can do that. In that context, I wish to time between parliamentarians from both countries. share the concerns expressed by others about the RTÉ presence in London. Mark Durkan: I fully take the point that the hon. Human trafficking is a huge issue in the eyes of many Gentleman has made. The point that I was about to people in this Parliament, and it has been discussed in make was that by creating a framework of British-Irish different devolved Assemblies and in the Oireachtas. relationships, through the Anglo-Irish agreement, the That issue needs to be examined at the British-Irish inter-parliamentary tier and the British-Irish Inter- level, because we need to deal not only with the international Parliamentary Body, space was opened up for dealing trafficking into our common travel area, but with the with the problems that were then vexing the narrow internal trafficking both within the different jurisdictions ground of Northern Ireland politics. By changing the in these islands and between them. We need to address relationship between Britain and Northern Ireland, we, those issues. 1021 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1022

Organ donation may also be an issue that we need to interest in marine matters. I hope we will continue to examine, as the various legislatures in these islands are campaign to bring UK and Irish fishing waters back perhaps examining it differently. We need to examine under national control, because that will be an important not only whether we should have opt-out legislation, part of how we look after fish stocks. but whether we have the right infrastructure to ensure Immigration has also been an issue. Yesterday, the that where we do have donors, we are maximising the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee had a long number of organs that become available. Is there the conversation with representatives of the UK Border right sharing and transfer of the organs that are available Agency. Because there is no recognisable border between throughout these islands? Many people suggest to me our country and Ireland, immigration has to be handled that there is not. That could be looked at, too. with care, and we have to make sure that happens. There is also the issue of adoption apology to address. I am delighted to have attended one or two BIPA In the previous Parliament, the then Prime Minister meetings at which we have worked closely together on told us that he wanted to make an apology in relation to various matters. Close working by the two countries is a what had happened to people who were forced into brilliant idea, because it puts us in the position where orphanages and then transported. There are serious we can ensure that the British and the Irish points of issues between Ireland and Britain in that regard. The view are expressed in no uncertain terms, so that the whole issue of adoption apology should not be an issue European Union understands that we will act in our for just one Government; it is a common issue throughout national interests and will not simply do what the these islands. It is a crying shame in our historical social French or the Germans tell us to do. I am also keen for relationship and it is one that should be addressed. us to work closely with the Irish to sort out their economic problems, because that way, I am convinced, 10.48 am we will be able to get out of the mess of our public finances. Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to 10.52 am speak in this debate. May I confess at the beginning that Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): I speak as a I am not only a member of BIPA, but a member of the long-time member of BIPA. I have been a member for Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, serving 10 years and I am proud to wear my BIPA tie here under the excellent chairmanship of my hon. Friend the today, as many others are doing. I also speak as chair of Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson)? I congratulate the all-party Irish in Britain group. According to the him on obtaining this debate from the Backbench Business last census, there are 600,000 first-generation Irish in Committee. Britain, and on her visit to Ireland the Queen said that I am not going to pretend for a moment that I am a 6 million people of Irish ancestry lived in the UK. We great expert on Ireland or Northern Ireland. Indeed, it reformed the all-party group two years ago, and I pay is only in the past two years that I have got to know the tribute to its secretary, Martin Collins, who provided an place at all, during the course of a trip. When I was first excellent debate briefing for all hon. Members, on both in southern Ireland, I was struck by seeing the horses sides of the House. I pay tribute, too, to the hon. run down the pavements too; I had not seen that in Member for Tewkesbury (Mr Robertson), who is an central London in my lifetime. assiduous co-chair of BIPA, with Joe McHugh. We have to remember that our relationship with Over the past 25 years, under Governments of both Ireland is not just a close trading one; we have a main parties, great progress has been made on Irish common approach to how we look at law. Both the issues. I pay tribute to former Prime Ministers John English and the Irish take a common law approach to Major, Tony Blair and my right hon. Friend the Member law, whereas in continental Europe it is much more to for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) and to the do with civil law. So we have a series of interests that we present Prime Minister, who showed excellent leadership need to make sure we work on together. in relation to the Saville inquiry and welcomed the Irish Taoiseach earlier this year. We are not talking only As others have said, there is the question of trade and about relations at the Executive level, however. Back-Bench how closely Britain and Ireland work together. As I relationships are also important, and BIPA acts in two understand it, we have more trade with the Republic of ways by also helping to cement those Back-Bench Ireland than with all the BRIC countries—Brazil, Russia, relationships across the Irish sea. I pay tribute again to India and China. We should ensure that we work closely the former Conservative Ministers, Michael Mates and with southern Ireland because we have common trade Lord Peter Brooke, who were excellent members of interests, such as employment regulation. Last year, our BIPA, and to past chairs, including my right hon. exports to southern Ireland were worth about £15.9 billion, Friends the Members for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) and whereas our imports from southern Ireland were worth for Neath (Mr Hain) and my hon. Friend the Member about £12.5 billion, so we made a profit—a rare for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), who co-chaired BIPA. commodity—from the relationship. That is incredibly They helped to build those common bonds between good news. Irish TDs, British MPs and representatives of the On Monday, I was delighted to attend the reception Assemblies across the UK. for Derry city of culture, because we in Plymouth are Developing relationships and trust is an important considering trying to become the city of culture in, I function of BIPA, but it is also about developing policy. believe, 2014. We hope to learn lessons from Derry. We have four committees; the one of which I am a We should be looking firmly and hard at how we can member is chaired by Lord Alf Dubs and has done work with the southern Irish Government on our common a fantastic job, over many years, looking at key issues interest in marine science. The hon. Member for Foyle such as migration, the Irish in Britain, on which we have (Mark Durkan) stated the case for that commonality of had two inquiries, and renewable energy in the islands. 1023 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly21 JUNE 2012 British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly 1024

[Chris Ruane] member of BIPA, but as a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I shall certainly take up that point As I mentioned in an intervention on the hon. Member when we next meet. for Tewkesbury, a lot of time, effort and resources goes My hon. Friend the Member for North Dorset into the committees. They are staffed by representatives (Mr Walter) pointed out that neither he nor I, nor many from the House of Commons and the Oireachtas, and other Members, necessarily have a direct connection we collect evidence and data and draw up policies, but with either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. quite often they are just filed. Last year, I sponsored a That is true, so why do we get involved? Well, we get debate on the Irish in Britain, which had excellent involved because we care. We care about Northern coverage in the British and Irish press. I think it is Ireland, we care about the Republic of Ireland and we incumbent on us, as members of BIPA, to ensure that care about the relationships we have. The only reason every time we issue a report, there is at least an Adjournment we are involved is our commitment to the process in debate in the House, so that we can discuss how the Northern Ireland and to forming closer links with the report’s recommendations can be implemented, or at Republic. least looked at. Looking to the future of BIPA and the all-party Irish The hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John in Britain group, we want to make sure that RTÉ is not Robertson), welcoming us to Glasgow, said that we will downgraded in the UK, as has been proposed. The enjoy some “proper whisky”—I think that was his decision is for the Irish Government and RTÉ itself, but description. I look forward to that, but I think we will we need to ensure that we have proper coverage of celebrate other Scottish products as well. We look forward British events in Ireland and Irish events in Britain, and to extending the discussions about trade and the economy an RTÉ base in London is key to that. I look forward to to the next plenary session in Glasgow. cross-party co-operation on that and other issues that I join in the shadow Secretary of State’s tribute to affect the Irish in Britain and in Ireland. I end by saying Barbara Jones, the deputy ambassador to London. I that I am very proud to be a member of BIPA. thank her for the friendship she has shown to the cause and to me personally. I wish her well in her new role. 10.57 am T he point was raised about whether the Prime Minister Mr Laurence Robertson: With the leave of the House, should attend in Glasgow. He has certainly been invited, Mr Speaker, I will make a few closing comments. as has the Deputy Prime Minister, so we hope that their I thank all those who have taken part in the debate busy schedules will allow them to afford to BIPA the and made interesting and useful contributions. I pay same respect as has been afforded by the Taoiseach and tribute to the members of the Northern Ireland Affairs many other Ministers in Ireland. I would like to thank Committee who have attended. The hon. Member for all Members for taking part in the debate and the North Antrim (Ian Paisley) has been present for most Backbench Business Committee for allowing us time to of it, and of course we heard from my hon. Friend the hold it. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Question put and agreed to. Colvile), who raised a number of issues, but I thank everyone who participated. Resolved, A comment was made that no Northern Ireland That this House has considered the matter of the work of the Members of Parliament are members of BIPA. The British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. hon. Member for Belfast South (Dr McDonnell) is a Proceedings interrupted (Order, 13 June) 1025 21 JUNE 2012 Secondary Education 1026

Secondary Education These are inevitably challenging ambitions that will require careful implementation. That is why we want 11 am the conversation on how we raise standards to be broad and inclusive. It is in all our interests that all our Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab) (Urgent Question): children do better than ever before. Although we want a To ask the Secretary of State for Education to make a broad conversation, we are also determined to reach a statement on reports that he plans to scrap GCSEs, end clear conclusion: a state school system in which every the secondary national curriculum and replace examination child is challenged to do much better, in which there are boards with single-subject bodies. no excuses for failure and in which every child is introduced to the best that has been thought and written and given The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove): every opportunity to achieve their utmost. The coalition Government’s education reforms are designed to raise standards in all our schools and give every child the opportunity to acquire the rigorous qualifications Kevin Brennan: Mr hon. Friend the shadow Education that will enable them to succeed in further and higher Secretary has asked me to put on the record the reason education and the world of work. We have already for his absence today: he is attending a meeting in taken steps to make the curriculum in primary schools Edinburgh with two of his constituents and the Spanish more rigorous, with a new emphasis on getting every consul-general about the murder of their son in Spain. child to read fluently and widely for pleasure, higher He sends his apologies. standards in essential arithmetic and new, more demanding GCSEs may well need improving, but a two-tier exam expectations of the level of scientific knowledge each system that divides children into winners and losers at child will master. Draft programmes of study for our 14 is not the answer. We on the Opposition side of the primary curriculum are out for consultation and we House believe in a modern education system that promotes look forward to engaging with parents and teachers on high standards, rigorous exams and a broad curriculum how to help every child achieve more. We inherited a that prepares young people for the world of work and situation in which far too many children left primary to succeed in life, but it seems that Ministers are in school unable to read, write or add up properly. That favour of going back to the future. They have cut was a crime against social justice and we are determined education spending by the largest amount since the to put it right. 1950s. They believe that Victorian-style rote learning is We are also taking steps to inject greater rigour into the way to teach our children. They want to bring back secondary education. The introduction of the English a two-tier exam system, designed in the 1950s, that will baccalaureate measure has resulted in the numbers studying separate children and close off opportunity. physics, chemistry, biology, history, geography and foreign We on the Opposition Benches believe in rigour and languages all rising. At the same time, we have already high standards for all, but we also believe in a broad made GCSEs more rigorous by tackling the re-sit culture, curriculum that prepares young people for work, so we ending modules and restoring marks for spelling, will set a series of tests to ensure that the changes meet punctuation and grammar, but the evidence we have both. First, Labour wants higher literacy and numeracy heard from parents, pupils, our best schools and our top standards. The key is to raise teaching quality across the universities shows that we need to consider going further. board. Is there any reason to expect these proposals to Children are working harder than ever, but we have deliver that? At best, they are a distraction from the been told that the exam system is not working for them. central challenges. Standards rose under Labour because Before Christmas The Daily Telegraph reported on the we focused on literacy and numeracy. It was we who competition between exam boards to dumb down inherited a weak system for maths and English from the qualifications—[Laughter.] I do not regard falling standards Tories. Only three in 10 pupils—that is 60%, because I in our schools as a laughing matter. Heads have told us know that the Secretary of State is not very good at that the current league table system incentivises weak maths—got a good GCSE in 1997, more than half— schools to push students towards soft subjects and [Interruption.] easier exams. Parents and students have told us that there are weaknesses with current GCSEs, which privilege Mr Speaker: Order. Sir Tony, you are now officially a bite-size learning over deep understanding and gobbets statesman, and a statesman should not yell across the of knowledge over real learning. Academics have reported Chamber. Calm yourself. that headline improvements in exam results have not been matched by profound improvements in understanding, Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): On a point of with researchers from King’s college London reporting order, Mr Speaker— today that teenagers’ maths skills have declined over the last 30 years. We have been considering how to address these concerns Mr Speaker: No point of order is required at this and plan to issue a consultation paper shortly. We stage. I shall hear the hon. Gentleman on another would like to see every student in this country able to occasion, with great anticipation. take world-class qualifications, such as the rigorous and respected exams taken by Singapore’s students, for example. Kevin Brennan: I was just testing their numeracy; the We want to tackle the culture of competitive dumbing figure is, of course, 30%. We improved literacy and down by ensuring that exam boards cannot compete numeracy standards. More than half achieved five good with each other on the basis of how easy their exams grades at GCSE, including English and maths, in 2010. are. We want a curriculum that prepares all students for Secondly, the Government appear to be writing off a success, at 16 and beyond, by broadening what is taught quarter of all young people at 14 with the return to the in our schools and then improving how it is assessed. CSE. There is strong evidence that children’s performance— 1027 21 JUNE 2012 Secondary Education 1028

Mr Speaker: Order. I feel sure that the hon. Gentleman qualifications. We aim to address that in order to ensure is moving towards a conclusion—he certainly should that the next generation get what they deserve—a world- be—and it might be useful if there was a question mark class education and world-class qualifications. somewhere. Several hon. Members rose— Kevin Brennan: Of course, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker: Order. I do not intend to allow this to How will these measures improve and promote social run beyond 11.30 am, because there is very substantial mobility? How will a return to 1950s qualifications help pressure on time. I am sure that Members will draw to prepare young people for a 21st century world of their own conclusions as to the importance in these work? Is not this nothing more than a softening-up circumstances of brevity. exercise to disguise a fall in attainment as Tory cuts, disruption and teachers leaving have an effect on pupils’ Mr Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): ability to learn? Parents, pupils and employers will be I welcome improved rigour, stretch and achievement for asking today what evidence there is to suggest that a our most able pupils, but the central problem facing this return, back to the future, to the CSE and O-levels will country is not about its most able pupils but about the actually work. lowest-performing and, all too often, the poorest. How will these changes and proposals improve the outcomes Michael Gove: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the lowest deciles of achievement in our population? for his questions and associate myself with his remarks Socially and economically, we cannot afford the tail about the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby that we have inherited from the Labour party. (Stephen Twigg), who I know is unavoidably detained on constituency business. I hope that the whole House Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very good will note that he is doing his first and most important point. One of the principal problems with our education job: representing those who elected him. system is not only that it has fallen behind other nations, but that it is one of the most inequitable, stratified and The hon. Gentleman asked a series of questions— segregated. The way in which we tackle that is not by [Interruption.] He asked a series of rhetorical questions. dumbing down on qualifications, but by raising expectations He invited us to consider that what the Government are at every level. reported to be putting forward would lead to a two-tier system. The sad truth is that we already have a two-tier Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and system in education in this country. Some of our most Hillsborough) (Lab): I appeal to the Secretary of State impressive schools have already left the GCSE behind to stop rubbishing everything that happened before he and opted for the IGCSE or other more rigorous came into office; BG—before Gove—is not a very attractive examinations. It is also the case, sadly, that 40% of proposition. Will he tell the House why Margaret Thatcher children do not achieve five good GCSEs, including introduced a common national curriculum and a common English and maths, in our system. He said that, under examination system in 1988? the proposals that are being reported, 25% of children would be left behind. The sad truth is that at least 40% Michael Gove: I am at pains, I hope, never to rubbish of children have been left behind under the current everything that preceded this Government, but I want system. There is no excuse not to act. [Interruption.] I to tell the truth, and the truth is that, although there note what the hon. Member for Westminster North were improvements, many as a direct result of the right (Ms Buck) says from a sedentary position, but given the hon. Gentleman’s stewardship of the Department for questions the hon. Member for Cardiff West asked, I Education, wrong turnings were taken, one of which, I think that trading percentages across the Dispatch Box am afraid, was to allow a race to the bottom in is not an area in which Labour Members can consider examinations, which serves no one’s interests. themselves strong. The hon. Gentleman also alleged that the proposals Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con): I were an attempt to move backwards. Far from it. They congratulate my right hon. Friend on his excellent statement are an attempt to ensure that our education system and, in particular, the idea of a single examination stands comparison with the world’s most rigorous, because board. Does he agree that we have not had a free market although there have undoubtedly been improvements in in exams; we have had a state-sponsored race to the our schools and by our teachers over the past 20 years, bottom? Sweden has a single exam board and has had they have not been sufficient to ensure that we keep no grade inflation for the past 20 years. pace with other jurisdictions. As Singapore, Hong Kong, Alberta and New Zealand, have improved their education Michael Gove: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for systems, we have fallen behind them in relative terms, her point. Not only does the Swedish experience inform and we need to ensure that our young people have the case, but Mr Conor Ryan, a distinguished former qualifications that are every bit as rigorous and a curriculum special adviser to the right hon. Member for Sheffield, that is every bit as stretching. Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and to the former Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said this morning: The sad truth is that, if we look at the objective measure of how we have done over the past 15 years, we “There are some…good ideas in what appears to be being considered” find that on international league tables our schools fell in reading from 523 to 494 points, in maths from 529 to by the Department for Education. He continues: 492 and in science from 528 to 514. Every objective “It makes perfect sense to have a single exam board for each academic study of what has happened in our education exam.” system has drawn attention to the weakness of our That view weighs heavily with me. 1029 Secondary Education21 JUNE 2012 Secondary Education 1030

Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): Given that the I have had a look at the Financial Times analysis and Secretary of State is rightly concerned to ensure that no think that it suffers from one thing: it itself is a prisoner children fail, why is he so obsessed with schools? All the of the culture of low aspiration which we are tackling. I evidence points to the idea that perhaps at three years hope to work with the right hon. Gentleman and other old, but certainly by the time they enter school, their life fair-minded people to ensure that we do not fall into chances are determined. Might one invite him to be that trap. equally obsessive about the foundation years as he is about schools? Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does the Minister welcome international GCSEs, which have Michael Gove: I am very grateful to the right hon. always been legal outside the United Kingdom? Gentleman for the point that he makes. Absolutely: we believe in intervening as early as possible, which is why Michael Gove: We absolutely do, and one of our first we have extended the number of hours of pre-school reforms was to ensure that they would count in league learning that we offer, particularly to disadvantaged tables in order to inject additional rigour. children. More can be done, however, and we are reforming the early years foundation stage. The Minister of State, Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Most parents want more Department for Education, my hon. Friend the Member rigour in their schools, and I think that, on reflection, for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), who has responsibility many families will welcome the changes that are being for children and families, is doing fantastic work in that suggested and consulted on. Will the Secretary of State area, and I look forward to working with the right hon. make it clear to schools that introducing additional Gentleman to do more. maths is a great way forward? It has happened in Northern Ireland and has been terrific for future science Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): The coalition graduates. Government have been determined to raise aspiration, and the Secretary of State has set out some ideas about Michael Gove: Again, the hon. Lady talks good sense the qualifications system. Does he agree, however, that on education and is absolutely right. One strength of we must not create a system that, for the 40% of the Northern Ireland system is its emphasis on greater students to whom he has just referred, creates a concrete rigour and stretch in mathematics, and more and more ceiling which prevents them moving beyond that 40%? I students are achieving those qualifications. We have am very concerned that a two-tier system will do just sought to pay mathematics graduates more to encourage that. them to consider teaching, and to create new centres of excellence, new 16-to-18 free schools in mathematics, but there is so much more to do, and I look forward to Michael Gove: My hon. Friend, as ever, makes a very working with her on that. valid point. One thing we need to do is ensure that more students are capable of taking more rigorous examinations. Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con): If we look at other jurisdictions that are performing Does my right hon. Friend agree that the weakness that better than us, such as Singapore, we find that 80% of has characterised the British education system for a students there take their O-level examinations, some at century and a half has been a failure to produce enough 15, some at 16 and some at 17. I see no reason why we people with technical and vocational qualifications, partly cannot have a similarly rigorous situation here. He is because of a presumption that they were for the less also right that there should be no cap on aspiration, and able and less academic? Can he reassure me that his one of our deepest problems is that some schools and reforms will tackle that weakness and ensure that technical some local authorities are insufficiently ambitious for and vocational qualifications that are of the utmost their young people. rigour and held in the highest esteem are available to all? Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab): The Secretary of State is absolutely right to say that Michael Gove: My right hon. Friend makes a very there is a close link between educational achievement, good point. One weakness in the implementation of the opportunity and social mobility, so the question is not Education Act 1944 was that the third strand, technical “Change or no change?” but “What kind of change?” schools, did not receive the investment that they should What is his reaction to the analysis published in the have done, and as a result a weakness in technical Financial Times of his proposed reforms, suggesting education, which this country has had since 1851, was that the new CSE will be a poorer person’s qualification reinforced. and a northern qualification? Would it not be a tragedy The advent of university technical colleges, an idea if any such reform reinforced the educational divides pioneered by Kenneth Baker and Andrew Adonis, is that exist, instead of providing a bridge out of them? going some way to dealing with the problem, and Alison Wolf’s report, which has injected additional Michael Gove: That is a typically acute point by the rigour into vocational qualifications, also helps to meet right hon. Gentleman; every time he speaks on education, that challenge, but we need to do more, including reforming I hear a voice of good sense. It is absolutely right to say the funding of further education colleges in order to that we need to tackle a culture of low aspiration that strengthen vocational subjects. has held students back in many of northern cities and in places such as east Lancashire for far too long. Any Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): I do wonder whether reform of the examination system and curriculum needs the Secretary of State ever visits schools and speaks to to ensure that we do not place a cap on aspiration in pupils and teachers. Children’s progress and achievement those areas. can currently be judged by the children themselves and 1031 Secondary Education21 JUNE 2012 Secondary Education 1032

[Julie Hilling] State to work closely with the Russell group, the leading group of universities, to make sure that we have an by employers within a common framework. CSEs had independent, rigorous examination board in which all little value in the past, so how can he assure me that universities can have confidence? they will have any value in the future? I cannot see how they can. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes an absolutely vital point. In order to ensure that the new examinations Michael Gove: I do visit schools, and I am constantly and curriculum are properly rigorous, we need to listen inspired by the amazing job that so many brilliant to parents’ concerns, work with teachers and, above all, teachers do. I am encouraged by the fact that more and make sure that academics are engaged in the debate to more teachers are more and more enthusiastic about ensure that the qualifications can become the world’s the changes that we are making, which will inject greater best. rigour into the system. One of the problems that we face, however, is that employers do not have faith in D David Wright (Telford) (Lab): The introduction of and E passes at GCSE at the moment; they do not GCSEs was a progressive Thatcherite policy; I am consider them an appropriate springboard for success worried about the Secretary of State, who is ditching his at work. We need to work with employers and others to Thatcherite credentials. My main concern about the ensure that they have more faith in the qualifications proposal is that it is going to be divisive and that pupils that our young people achieve. who do not achieve the opportunity to go on and do an O-level equivalent at 14 will be left behind. Can he Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): As somebody who sat assure us that that is not his objective? GCSEs in their first year, 1988, and saw the watering down of standards at the time and the knock-on watering Michael Gove: Absolutely. I can also reassure the down of standards that followed for A-levels, I welcome hon. Gentleman that in matters of ideology, I am a what my right hon. Friend has said today. Building on Blairite; I believe that what is right is what works. One the point that he has just made, does he accept that of our problems at the moment is that the GCSE whereas 30 or 40 years ago somebody could go to an system is not working for all students. I absolutely agree employer with five O-levels and that would mean something, that we need to ensure that our qualification system today the fact that a person has 10 GCSEs is becoming raises aspiration for all students, and ensures, as in increasingly meaningless to many employers, despite Singapore, that 80%, and rising, of students can acquire that person’s hard work? the qualifications that enable them to go on to further and higher education. Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes his point effectively and with typical pungency. Among employers there is a Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con): It is well reported that lack of confidence in many of the qualifications that the Yorkshire-based supermarket Morrisons found the exist at the moment. The people let down most by that standard of its school leavers so poor that it had to refer are hard-working and intelligent students. I am convinced them for remedial job training. Does that not highlight that we have the best generation of teachers ever in our the issues that we face? It beggars belief that we should schools and that students are working harder than ever. not be looking at those issues. That is why we need to change the exam system—so that it works as hard as they do. Michael Gove: That is good Yorkshire sense from my hon. Friend. Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab): I know from personal experience, having prepared students for many different Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): He’s Welsh! qualifications, of the inadequacy of O-levels and CSEs, compared with GCSEs, in setting and assessing standards. Will the Secretary of State reassure the House and Michael Gove: Yorkshire is a generous county that those outside it that any changes to our examination adopts children from whatever background and turns system are strongly and rigorously evidence-based and them into men. not based on hunch and assumption, so that he does It is not just Morrisons; in 2009, Sir Terry Leahy said not make a wrong turning that damages the UK economy that standards among the students that he was recruiting and young people’s lives? to Tesco were “woefully low”. We have to listen to employers. They demand a greater level of technical, Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman, who was an mathematical and literacy skills from all their students outstanding principal of an outstanding further education and we need to improve our education to ensure that college, makes a very good point. I emphasise again whatever route children follow, they receive a 21st century that it is natural, when we seek to reform our examination education—and that means additional rigour to compete system, that people will look backwards and think that with the world’s best. we are moving back to a situation that we inherited. We are not; we are moving forward to ensure that our Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab): qualifications are more rigorous, stand comparison with Can the Secretary of State explain how going backwards the best in the world and take account of precisely the to a 1950s qualification will help young people prepare point that the hon. Gentleman made about the need for for a 21st century world of work? evidence. Michael Gove: The hon. Lady, whom I greatly respect, Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con): The multitude has fallen into the trap, perhaps taking her cue from of examination boards is confusing for pupils, schools those on her party’s Front Bench, of thinking that the and, above all, universities. May I urge the Secretary of measure is a move towards the 1950s. Let me take this 1033 Secondary Education21 JUNE 2012 Secondary Education 1034 opportunity, which she has kindly given me, to reassure other reasons—to slot straight into the exam board and her absolutely that we want not to look backwards but know exactly where they are going to be for their to look outwards. We want to ask ourselves why there education? are other countries that have stronger exam systems and also make opportunity more equal. Why do countries Michael Gove: My hon. Friend makes a very good such as Singapore, Hong Kong, Canada, Australia and point. One of the advantages of avoiding that race to New Zealand manage to have both a higher level of the bottom in single subject areas is precisely the degree absolute attainment and a more equal society, including of certainty that she alludes to. a more equal education system? That is what we want to achieve and I hope that we can count on the hon. Lady’s Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): The support in that mission. hon. Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) talked passionately about the use of the free market in education. In a free market, the weakest go to the wall. Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): My right hon. Does the Secretary of State support the view that Friend is right to concentrate on raising standards, and children who need to be supported to aspire and achieve employers will welcome what he has said today, but can should simply go to the wall? he confirm whether he plans to abolish the national curriculum for secondary schools? Michael Gove: I do not. I think that the hon. Lady is misrepresenting what my hon. Friend the Member for Michael Gove: We want to make sure that the national South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) said. Forgive me; curriculum in secondary schools is properly aligned she would never misrepresent, but she misconstrued my with qualifications. One of the problems is that, to my hon. Friend. My hon. Friend was calling for a single mind, there are many admirable aspects of the secondary exam board in each subject and for steps to be taken to curriculum that we inherited, but also some very weak deal with one of the adverse aspects of poorly regulated aspects. One of the problems is that both what is competition. That is a critical thing that I hope we can admirable and what is weak in that curriculum is agree on across the House. Sometimes, competition can overshadowed by what people have to do to acquire raise standards, but poorly designed competition can qualifications. In that sense, our secondary school system sometimes lead to a race to the bottom. We need to is the wrong way around in that weak qualifications recognise when competition is right and when it needs determine what is taught and the only things considered to be dealt with. worth teaching are those that are assessed. I want to change that to make sure that our qualifications are Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): Secondary rigorous and that much of what goes on in secondary head teachers in Swindon, some of whom have been schools that is not assessed is properly regarded as meeting me only today, will welcome reforms to the valuable. examination board system. Can my right hon. Friend assure me that the terms of reference for setting up the new boards will explicitly refer to rigorous and high Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): The standards in future examinations? Secretary of State has sought to assure the House that he is not looking backwards, but he is being Michael Gove: Absolutely. uncharacteristically coy about what he is actually proposing. Is it true that he is seeking to reintroduce something Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): akin to the O-level? If so, how will he avoid the Has the Secretary of State looked at what is done in the reintroduction of CSEs? The problem is not simply a country that leads the education achievement tables, cap on aspiration, but the stigmatisation of young Finland, which is very different from what he is proposing? people in their teens. Michael Gove: I look very closely at what happens in Finland and other high-performing jurisdictions. Finland Michael Gove: The hon. Gentleman makes a fair is in many respects an outlier, but one of the things that point. I have not said more at this stage because at the is common to it and to other high-performing jurisdictions Department for Education we are considering how to is a great degree of rigour in the examinations that deal with a very real problem. I have laid out what I students take at the end of their studies. A recent report believe are the problems with the examination system by Ofqual compares our A-levels with some of the that we have inherited. I am clear that certain points qualifications and examinations that Finnish students need to be addressed, but I want to ensure that in the sit in their final years at school, which are exceptionally collective national conversation about how we address rigorous. However, the most important thing about the these problems we are clear that we need to end dumbing Finnish education system is that it attracts and retains down and the race to the bottom. To do that, we need to the very best people in teaching. That is why the changes ensure that we look to what happens in the world’s best that we have made to initial teacher training announced jurisdictions and learn from our best academics, teachers last week are so important. and the increasing number of parents who recognise that we need to change our education system to keep Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): The Secretary pace with the world’s best nations. of State rightly paid tribute to the hard work being done by schools and pupils. Does he agree that it is a Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Does the Secretary of State great shame that the Opposition have automatically agree that one of the major advantages of a single exam assumed that these proposals are divisive and bad for board is that it will allow children in more difficult schools and pupils, not recognising that they are a circumstances—looked-after children, those in military legitimate way of tackling the problems that employers families or those whose parents separate or move for and universities are telling the Department about? 1035 Secondary Education 21 JUNE 2012 1036

Michael Gove: That is a typically fair point. I want to Business of the House seek consensus on the correct way forward, because that is in the interests of all our children. Looking at what has gone wrong in the past, mistakes were made 11.31 am by previous Conservative and Labour Governments, Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab): Will the Leader of and I hope that we can work together to put them right. the House please give us the business for next week? I believe that behind the inevitable political commentary by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George there was a recognition, as there certainly is among Young): The business for next week will be as follows: those on the Labour Back Benches, that we have suffered from a culture of low aspiration for too long and need MONDAY 25 JUNE—Consideration in Committee to address that by raising standards for all. of the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill (day 2). Several hon. Members rose— TUESDAY 26 JUNE—Opposition Day [3rd allotted day]. There will be a debate on the national health service Mr Speaker: Order. I am grateful to the Secretary of followed by a debate on defence. Both debates will arise State. I am sorry to disappoint colleagues, but we must on an Opposition motion. move on. I am sure that there will be many opportunities WEDNESDAY 27 JUNE—Conclusion of consideration in to air these matters in the weeks and months ahead. Committee and remaining stages of the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill (day 3). THURSDAY 28 JUNE—Debate on a motion relating to fiscal measures to strengthen the green economy, followed by debate on a motion relating to the appointment of a Minister for older people. The subjects for these debates have been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. The provisional business for the week commencing 2 July will include: MONDAY 2JULY—Motion to approve ways and means resolutions relating to the Finance Bill, followed by remaining stages of the Finance Bill (day 1). TUESDAY 3JULY—Conclusion of remaining stages of the Finance Bill (day 2). WEDNESDAY 4JULY—Estimates Day [1st allotted day]. There will be a debate on UK-Turkey relations and Turkey’s regional role, followed by a debate on the work of the UK Border Agency. Further details will be given in the Official Report. [The details are as follows: There will be a debate on: UK-Turkey relations and Turkey’s regional role; 12th report from the Foreign Affair Committee of Session 2010-12, HC 1567, and the Government response thereto, CM 8370. Followed by a debate on the work of the UK Border Agency; 15th report from the Home Affairs Committee of Session 2010-12, The Work of the UK Border Agency (April-July 2011), HC 1497, and the Government response thereto, CM 8253, and the Committee’s 21st report of Session 2010-12, Work of the UK Border Agency (August- December 2011), HC 1722.] At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates. THURSDAY 5JULY—Proceedings on the Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill, followed by debate on a motion relating to VAT on air ambulance fuel payments, followed by a further debate to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee. FRIDAY 6JULY—Private Members’ Bills. I should also like to inform the House of business in Westminster Hall: THURSDAY 5JULY—Debate on adoption.

Ms Eagle: I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the business for next week. 1037 Business of the House21 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 1038

The visit to the UK by Aung San Suu Kyi is an the Tory election manifesto and the coalition agreement. opportunity for us to pay tribute to her enormous May I tell the Leader of the House that the difficulties courage and determination in leading peaceful opposition that the Government are experiencing are not because to the Burmese dictatorship. The personal sacrifices they have too few special advisers but because they stand that she has made in spending most of the last quarter up for the wrong people? They make the wrong choices: of a century under house arrest have been enormous. the wrong choices on the economy, the wrong choices Her bravery and fortitude have been an inspiration to on tax cuts for the richest 1%, and the wrong choices on many and deserve the deepest admiration. Members in HMRC funding. all parts of the House will be looking forward to the The U-turn on special advisers is the latest in a long speech she will deliver to both Houses later today. line. Will the Leader of the House update Members on Because of the courage of Aung San Suu Kyi and how many U-turns the Government have performed others, Burma is finally taking the first tentative steps over the last month? We have had U-turns on the pasty on the road to democracy. Does the Leader of the tax, the skip tax, the caravan tax, aircraft carriers, and House agree that it is important for the UK to do all we the special advisers cap. Have I missed any? [Interruption.] can to help to ensure democratic reform in Burma? Oh yes, the charity tax. Given this record, and for the If in Burma the signs are promising, in Egypt there convenience of Members, will the Leader of the House, are worrying signs that the military is reluctant to give alongside announcing the forthcoming business, in future up power, and in Syria the Government’s actions in also announce the forthcoming Government U-turns? massacring their own people are completely unacceptable. Will the Leader of the House give an undertaking that Sir George Young: I suppose that there was a tangential the Foreign Secretary will continue to keep the House connection with next week’s business in some of that. aware of the efforts being made to ensure the transition May I, too, start on a consensual note and endorse to democracy in all these regions? what the hon. Lady said about the visit of Aung San This week Members will have received a letter from Suu Kyi? We are all looking forward to her address in the Culture Secretary announcing a U-turn on the Westminster Hall. It is a sign of the progress that has planned draft Communications Data Bill Green Paper, been made in Burma that she feels able to leave Burma which was to be published this summer. It was delayed confident that she will be able to return. It is quite right until the autumn, and now we are told that it will not be that this iconic person should be given the opportunity published at all. Instead, we are promised a White to address both Houses in Westminster Hall later on. It Paper some time next year. In his letter, the Culture is indeed our objective to play a key role in supporting Secretary told Members that this would incorporate the genuine democratic change in Burma. Aung San Suu Government’s response to the Leveson report. Is not Kyi will be seeing the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime the position of the Culture Secretary and the Government Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, the Foreign getting beyond parody? Does the Leader of the House Secretary and the Secretary of State for International really think that it is remotely credible for Lord Justice Development, and that dialogue will take forward the Leveson’s report to be sent to this Culture Secretary to agenda for change. There is a heavy weight of expectation consider, given that he has, to put it kindly, a strong on her shoulders, and I feel some sympathy with her for personal interest in the conclusions? carrying that burden. The Prime Minister rushed to the TV studios to The Foreign Secretary will certainly want to keep the condemn the tax avoidance scheme used by Jimmy House up to date on the worrying events in Egypt and Carr. Oddly, he did not take the opportunity to condemn Syria, so I can give the hon. Lady that undertaking. as “morally repugnant” the tax avoidance scheme used On the proceedings on the Leveson report and the by Conservative supporter Gary Barlow, who has given way in which that gets reported back to the House, I a whole new meaning to the phrase “Take That”. If he think that the machinery we have set up is absolutely is also “morally repugnant”, why has he just been given correct. We debated the position of the Culture Secretary an OBE in the birthday honours? Why is the Prime last week, and his position was endorsed in a vote at the Minister’s view of what is dodgy in the tax system so end of that debate. partial? Sir Philip Green has interesting tax arrangements, but far from being labelled “morally repugnant” in a On tax avoidance, we are introducing a number of Mexico TV studio, he got a Government review to head measures that the Labour party failed to introduce, up. such as a general anti-avoidance rule and measures to ensure that at least some tax is paid by those on high While the Prime Minister talks the talk in the TV incomes. Of course, the Chancellor will be at the Dispatch studios, the reality is that his Government are cutting Box on Tuesday to answer questions. Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs’ resources, making it much harder to tackle tax avoidance schemes, while in The hon. Lady ended on U-turns and wrong choices. the botched Budget his Government have given every Today I read an article in The Times by the shadow millionaire a legal way to reduce their tax bill by cutting Home Secretary, in which she conceded that Labour did tax for the richest 1%. Will the Leader of the House not get it right on immigration: arrange for the part-time Chancellor to make a statement “In government we didn’t do enough to address people’s to explain why the Government are cutting taxes for concerns on immigration. By the election, we had lost the argument”. millionaires when hard-pressed families are struggling That was one wrong choice, and I welcome that admission. to make ends meet? I hope we can expect it to be the first in a series of Another U-turn this week was the admission by the articles by Opposition Front Benchers outlining their gaffe-laden Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster mistakes over the 13 years. When can we expect an General that the Government had recruited additional article in The Times from the shadow Chancellor, confessing special advisers, breaking the spirit, if not the letter, of that Labour did not get it right on the economy either? 1039 Business of the House21 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 1040

Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con): I appreciate Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): I am sure that the Procedure Committee published its report on that the right hon. Gentleman will agree that the Sustainable our sitting hours only yesterday, but is the Leader of the Communities Act 2007 could do much to protect and House aware of the desirability of the Government’s promote local public services, jobs and thriving places, responding to the report soon so that we can have a and to empower people. We have, however, been waiting debate before the summer recess? Will he use his offices for more than a year for the associated regulations. to see that a debate on sitting hours, whether in Government Media reports suggest that the regulations have been time or in Backbench Business Committee time, takes signed off by the Minister of State, Department for place sooner rather than later? Communities and Local Government, the right hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). May we Sir George Young: The whole House is grateful to my have a statement from him about when he plans to right hon. Friend and his Committee for their report on publish the regulations, or should we just quietly forget sitting hours. I encourage all hon. Members to read it. the whole thing? The Government will of course seek to make an early response to facilitate the debate to which he has referred. Sir George Young: There are questions to Ministers at I see an advantage in dealing with the section of the the Department for Communities and Local Government report on Monday to Thursday sitting hours at an early on Monday week. In the meantime, I will ask my right stage. I will report back to him and to the House if time hon. Friend to write to the hon. Gentleman to bring for such a debate can be found before we rise for the him up to date with our plans to publish the regulations summer recess. to which he has referred.

Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab): I, Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): Will too, welcome the report on sitting hours by the Procedure the Leader of the House facilitate a debate on the Committee. As a Select Committee report, it almost public perception of the politicians in this place and, certainly falls to the Backbench Business Committee to more specifically and pertinently, now that the dust has allocate the time. With this being a new Session, I have a settled, on whether that perception was enhanced by new plea. So far, only Thursdays have been allocated for last week’s Opposition debate? Back-Bench time. Will the Government allocate something other than Thursdays for Back-Bench time, so that not only important reports such as the sitting hours report Sir George Young: As I said at the end of that debate, by the Procedure Committee but other matters with it was not a good debate. I would very much welcome a votable motions can be debated not on a Thursday? debate along the lines that my hon. Friend has suggested, in which Members from all parts of the House could Sir George Young: I am grateful to the hon. Lady for outline the steps that we can take individually to drive that question. Of the 40 days in the Chamber that were up the public’s perception of and confidence in Members allocated to the Backbench Business Committee in the of the House. If such a debate took place, I very much Session that has just ended, 17 were not on Thursdays. hope that Members on all sides would listen to the It is therefore not the case that they are all Thursdays. repeated injunctions from Mr Speaker that we should None the less, I take to heart her plea for more non- use temperate language and have regard to the impact Thursdays. There may be a non-Thursday before the of what we say in this Chamber on those who are recess. I take her point on board and, as always, we will watching. seek to accommodate the hon. Lady and her Committee as much as we can. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I am glad that you have a good sense of timing, Madam Deputy Speaker. I Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): May we was sitting on the edge of my seat, waiting for news of have a debate on extending the excellent provisions for the Lords reform Bill, but I heard nothing. Will the councils to borrow to build social housing? Headingley Leader of the House confirm that when the Bill is in my constituency is now achieving a better balance introduced, it will include provisions for the ending of between family houses and houses in multiple occupation. the link between a peerage and sitting in the legislature, However, we want councils to be able to buy properties and that it will end peerages being given to anybody? so that the mix can be extended and the balance improved While we are at it, should we not abolish baronetcies, further. because now that we have parliamentary knights, who have earned the right, and since a baronetcy can never Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s be inherited by a woman, but only by a man, surely it is keen interest in improving the quality and quantity of time, in an egalitarian era, to get rid of them? the social housing stock in his constituency. I welcome what he said about the freedoms that we have given Sir George Young: I think that was a wholly unnecessary local authorities recently. I will raise the point with my and provocative remark! Some baronets were Labour right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities MPs, such as Tam Dalyell. I am not sure what he would and Local Government. Apart from local authorities, have thought about that comment. As the hon. Gentleman there is the additional resource of housing associations, knows, we published a draft House of Lords Reform which already have the freedom, to which my hon. Bill, which proposed some of the measures to which he Friend referred, to buy houses on the open market if referred. There was then a report by the Joint Committee they want to. Because they can borrow and top up their on the draft Bill, and the Government are reflecting on allocation with private funds, routing money through it. We will introduce a Bill to reform the House of housing associations often enables public money to go Lords and plan to do so and to have a Second Reading further than if it was routed through local authorities. debate on it before the summer recess. 1041 Business of the House21 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 1042

Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Will the Sir George Young: Responsibility for managing the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the House of Commons is an issue not for the Government private rail companies? One of my constituents bought but for the House of Commons Commission. As a a ticket with his young person’s railcard, but when he member of that Commission, I take very seriously, as I was inspected on the train he was found not to have the know the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) does, railcard with him. He was charged not only the mark-up our responsibility to the staff who work here, who give to the adult fee, but the full adult fee plus a us a good quality of service. We are aware of some areas £60 administration charge by East Midlands Trains. of concern and my door is open to representatives of May we have a debate on the practices of some of these the staff of this House to come and talk to me. On the companies? broader issue, the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill currently going through the House may offer an Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear of the misfortune opportunity to debate the quality of management in that happened to my hon. Friend’s constituent. I am this country. sure that as his Member of Parliament my hon. Friend will take the matter up with the train operating company Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con): The nation’s to see whether it might consider its actions. There will corner shops rely heavily on tobacco sales to sustain be Transport questions a week today, when there will be their business. As the Government are pursuing a number an opportunity to raise the matter with my right hon. of policies designed to reduce tobacco consumption, Friend the Secretary of State for Transport. may we have a debate on how we can support our corner shops, which are a lifeline in so many communities? Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): As the co-chairman of the Conservative party has been Sir George Young: I note what my hon. Friend says travelling abroad on official Government business with about the importance of small shops. So far as standardised her business partner, who has involvement with the packaging is concerned, there is currently a consultation extremist Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir, may we have a exercise, which I think ends on 10 July, on the case for statement from the Prime Minister on whether he will and against standardised packaging of cigarettes. The honour his pledge to ban that organisation, which he Government have not made up their mind—we want to made before becoming Prime Minister? await the outcome of the representations that have been made—and I urge my hon. Friend and her constituents, if they have not already done so, to join members of Sir George Young: I will raise with the Home Secretary relevant trade associations in making representations to the question of banning that particular group. However, the Department of Health on this important issue. the hon. Lady should be careful about making accusations about who travels along with whom, because I am sure David Wright (Telford) (Lab): The chief constable of that that is an issue that could be raised by Members on West Mercia police has indicated that a strategic merger both sides of the House. between the force and Warwickshire will result in a reduction in front-line officers and police community Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): I, too, would support officers. Will a Minister come to the House to like a debate on anomalies in the rail fares pricing explain why the promise that there would be no front-line system. Constituents in Marsden and Slaithwaite in my reductions in police has been broken? patch are constantly baffled that it costs three times as much to travel just one stop in a direction that goes Sir George Young: I am not sure that there are active across different passenger transport executives as it proposals to do what the previous Government proposed— does to go 20 miles in the other direction to Leeds. they were persuaded not to do it—and merge some of the police forces in this country. So far as front-line Sir George Young: I understand the perplexity of my services are concerned, the Home Secretary has repeatedly hon. Friend’s constituents. There is a consultation on made it clear that although police authorities have to ticketing that ends towards the end of the month. I take difficult decisions, we believe that through having encourage him and his constituents to make representations joint services and intelligent commissioning, by getting to that review of ticketing policy. There is a separate other people to carry out some of the services currently consultation exercise on devolving more autonomy to performed by police officers, the quality and integrity of local organisations to resolve issues such as ticketing for front-line services can be maintained. local journeys. There are therefore two opportunities to influence the fares structure to which he has referred. Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con): Local Reading mum Rebecca Rye has raised concerns with me about Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Will the health effects on her son Edward of so-called energy the Leader of the House consider having a debate on drinks. Given the growing research evidence, including the quality of management in our country? A recent a paper from the university of Miami, there is significant Chartered Management Institute report suggested that cause for concern for vulnerable groups about effects 38% of the managers in this country are not very good such as seizures, strokes and even sudden death. As at all. That affects every aspect of our lives and ultimately parents are very concerned, may we have a statement leads to our country underperforming. Given the low from a Health Minister or a debate in Government time morale of staff in this place, which I remarked on only about this very important subject? two or three weeks ago, is he doing something about raising the standard of the management of this place so Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s that the people who work here actually feel that we care concern. There is concern about the impact on some about them? people of high energy drinks. The UK Food Standards 1043 Business of the House21 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 1044

[Sir George Young] Sir George Young: The Chancellor of the Exchequer will be at the Dispatch Box next Tuesday. Agency considers that the effects of caffeine are transitory and without permanent health effects. It has published Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): For advice that children and other people who are sensitive many businesses in South West Devon, overheads such to caffeine should consume such drinks only in moderation. as rent levels and staffing costs are fairly stable, but If my hon. Friend has further evidence, the FSA and business rates seem to be escalating out of control, the Department of Health would very much like to have often for precious little in return. The situation is made a look at it to see whether that advice needs revision in worse by an appeal system that is completely clogged up the light of the evidence. and that takes months to navigate. What do the Government intend to do to clear this logjam and ensure that my Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) constituents receive a swifter, fairer hearing? (PC): This week, the Welsh First Minister said on the Floor of the Senedd that he was actively canvassing for Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear about any delay the relocation of Trident to Milford Haven. The reaction in hearing appeals from my hon. Friend’s constituents of the people of Wales to this news is one of horror. about the rateable value of their business premises. I Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State will certainly pursue that with Ministers at Department for Defence to make a statement on what progress there for Communities and Local Government. It is worth has been in the intergovernmental negotiations on this putting it on the record that we have doubled small issue? business rate relief, which helps roughly half a million small businesses. Also—this may be of relevance to my Sir George Young: We had Defence questions a few hon. Friend—we have scrapped Labour’s ports tax, days ago, on Monday last week, and I do not think that thereby helping many businesses operating in areas the opportunity to ask Defence questions arises again such as Plymouth. until September. Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con): The crossroads of the The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of UK’s motorway network is the junction of the M1 and the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): On 16 July. the M6 at Catthorpe, which is used daily by many businesses based in Rugby. The Government have rightly Sir George Young: In the mean time, I will ask my scheduled funds for an upgrade, but there have been right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence to two serious accidents in the past week, one of which write to the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and involved yet another fatality. May we have a debate to Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) to bring him up to date consider what temporary measures could be taken with the discussion to which he has just referred. immediately and how to make permanent changes to avoid further loss of life? Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con): My right hon. Friend may be surprised to hear that a city with the cultural history of Chester does not have its own Sir George Young: I am sorry to hear about the loss permanent theatre. However, the local council has of life. As my hon. Friend has said, we have committed inspirational plans to build a new 800-seat theatre in the funds to this project, but I think a public inquiry is city centre. May we have a debate on funding for art needed first. The Highways Agency is aware of the facilities so that I could highlight and champion this recent accidents and, subject to the result of police exciting project? investigations into their causes, will look at what measures might be possible to improve the safety of the junction Sir George Young: I am delighted to hear that the in advance of the major improvements to which my City of Chester is contemplating having a theatre and hon. Friend has referred. that it has the strong support of my hon. Friend. He will know that decisions on capital funding for projects Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): Will the Leader of the like this are made by the Arts Council at arm’s length House find time for us to debate last Thursday’s from central Government. If he has not already done so announcement by the Secretary of State for Work and I encourage him and his local authority to contact the Pensions on child poverty and the forthcoming consultation Arts Council to make sure that this is on its radar and on how it is measured and on whether this means that that there is a constructive dialogue about how we the Government are opening up the Child Poverty Act might make progress. I am sure that my hon. Friend will 2010? be invited to the opening if and when it is built. Sir George Young: My hon. Friend raises an important Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Project Merlin was point and there will be a debate on social mobility in announced to the House with great fanfare by the Westminster Hall on 28 June, in which it might be Chancellor of the Exchequer. Its catastrophic failure possible for her to raise this issue. We take seriously the led the Chancellor to make a series of announcements commitment to tackle child poverty. As my right hon. in his Mansion House speech, but despite the fact that Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary has said, we we had a Treasury statement last Thursday, the Chancellor believe that the current measurements are wrong. still has not come to the House and given us an opportunity Discussions are under way to see whether there are to question him on this matter. I know that the Leader better measurements and whether we need to look of the House genuinely believes in the importance of beyond having a simple mathematical calculation of this Chamber, but why have we not had an opportunity poverty and look at some of the root causes to make to speak to the Chancellor about this? sure that they are tackled as well. 1045 Business of the House21 JUNE 2012 Business of the House 1046

Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I know that Labour Enfield council has failed to collect £4.9 million the Leader of the House is extremely keen that Members in unpaid penalty charge notices since 2010 and yet, should hear new Government policy first, or at the despite that, it is putting up parking charges which are earliest opportunity. As Ministers cannot make statements harming our town centre and introducing new charges here first—they seem addicted to going to television on a Sunday. studios and newspapers—would it be possible each week to publish in which television studios, programmes Sir George Young: I understand my hon. Friend’s and papers these statements are going to be made? concern, which he has expressed on several occasions at business questions. I understand that a meeting is taking Sir George Young: I think that the first debate chosen place in Enfield on 4 July and I encourage residents who by the Backbench Business Committee was one on are opposed to what is planned to come along to that ministerial statements. There was then a report by the meeting. So far as the Government are concerned, we Select Committee on Procedure, which we debated. I have removed the policy of setting charges to discourage have consistently made it clear that Ministers take seriously the use of cars and we have introduced the policy that their obligation, when the House of Commons is sitting, parking enforcement should be proportionate but, crucially, in the first instance to announce major changes of we expect local authorities to have regard to the impact policy to the House. That is the policy of the Government, of parking charges on businesses in the town centre. I of which I constantly remind my Cabinet colleagues, commend my hon. Friend for the vigorous campaign and we intend to adhere to it. that he has launched.

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): May we have an Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): May we have a debate urgent statement on the European Union and animal on honesty in prison sentences? According to a experiments? My constituent Louise Jackson is concerned parliamentary answer from the Ministry of Justice this about a new EU directive which will scrap the historic week, someone who is sentenced to prison for six months protection that Britain has granted to stray cats and can be released in six weeks, someone sent to prison for dogs, stopping them being used in laboratory experiments. 12 months can be released after three months, and Losing a pet is distressing, but the idea that it could end someone sent to prison for two years can be released up in someone’s lab is unacceptable. Will my right hon. after seven and a half months. A debate would allow the Friend urge the Government to stand up to Europe on Government to explain to my constituents why that is a the issue? satisfactory state of affairs, and if they do not think it is a satisfactory state of affairs, perhaps they could explain Sir George Young: Like other hon. Members, I have what they will do about it. had representations from constituents who share the concern referred to by my hon. Friend. I can give him a Sir George Young: In the previous Session we had categorical assurance that the UK does not allow the extensive discussions on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and use of stray dogs and cats in animal experiments. We do Punishment of Offenders Act 2012. During the passage not envisage any circumstances in which the use of stray of the Bill, my hon. Friend raised many of those issues. animals could be justified in future. Some of his suggestions were dealt with by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): May we have a Justice in response. We have no plans for another debate statement from a Local Government Minister on the on sentencing policy, but it is open to my hon. Friend, performance of councils with respect to revenue collection? as a former member of the Backbench Business Committee, The Leader of the House will be as shocked as I am that to seek a Back-Bench debate in Back-Bench time. 1047 21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1048

Interest Rate Swap Products and qualifications of the person doing the selling. Has the hon. Gentleman come across any similar problem either in his constituency or as a result of this debate 12.2 pm being called? Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I beg to move, Guto Bebb: There have been examples of such scenarios, That this House has considered the matter of the mis-selling of interest rate swap products to small and medium-sized businesses; which have come across my desk as a result of what has notes the work undertaken by the Financial Services Authority in now become a campaign. One of the reasons for holding this respect; and calls for a prompt resolution of the matter. the debate is to ensure that more cases come forward, I thank the Backbench Business Committee for awarding because the more information that we have, the easier it me the debate. It has received a number of fine applications will be for the FSA, for example, to bring the issue to a for time in the main Chamber and I am grateful for the resolution and for the banks to acknowledge that there opportunity to raise the issue of the mis-selling of bank is a problem. The hon. Lady makes an important interest rate swap products. A number of colleagues intervention. have indicated their willingness and a desire to speak in the debate, so I shall try to be as concise as I can in my Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): I opening remarks. have a slight confession to make. I spent a great deal of my 20 years in business dealing with swaps, collars, caps The issue came to my attention in dealing as an MP and all sorts of financial instruments. The case highlighted with the hassles raised in constituency surgeries. It is a by my hon. Friend of its being a fixed-rate product in a great advert for doing surgeries: we never know what sense misses the point. In general, such products were will come through the door. Back in the autumn of last hedges—they were there to mitigate risk. A lot of customers year, a constituent came in to talk about interest rate went awry, because the bank would often present the swaps, collars, caps and similar things. I was a self-employed products as a loan but would gear up much more if the business person for 15 years before I was elected to this risk could be mitigated. Such financial products were place, and it crossed my mind that this business man often sold on that basis. who was talking about the loss of his business and his hotel and the potential loss of his house might be Guto Bebb: That is an important point. My comments finding an excuse for his business failure. I am not a will state clearly that those products are not necessarily hard-hearted individual, but I have been in business for wrong. The question at stake is whether the products a long time and I have the view that there is the rule of were sold appropriately, and whether there was a degree buyer beware in transactions with banks and other of mis-selling. Sophisticated investors, understanding financial institutions. I therefore listened to his case what they are doing, should have the right to enter into attentively but with a degree of scepticism, wondering such agreements. My question is whether the banks whether he was looking for an excuse for what happened should be going after businesses with turnovers of less to him. than £200,000 a year. The more I listened, however, the more I thought that there was something that I should look into, and the Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con): I have a constituent, crux for me came when I tried to get hold of the verbal whom I will not name for understandable reasons, who agreement between my constituent, Mr Colin Jones, has suffered a loss in excess of £1.5 million as a result of and his bank. It took us a long time to get the bank to such a product. Does my hon. Friend not agree that the allow us to see a transcript of the verbal agreement, and banks have an extra responsibility, because they are by that point I understood something about the nature often dealing with inexperienced people who, nevertheless, of interest swap derivatives and what was meant by place a massive trust in their long-term relationship swaps, caps and collars. I had a degree of understanding with their banks? that we were not considering a straightforward financial product. Guto Bebb: That is a key point. Time and again, My concern, which became apparent from the transcript, businesses have told me that their relationships with was that time and again—on four if not five occasions— banks go back 15 or 20 years, and that they believed the during the telephone conversation that was the basis of banks had their best interests at heart. In some situations, the legal agreement the bank described the product as a however, they have clearly been sold products that they fixed-rate one. The bank even went so far as to say, in did not understand, but they trusted their bank manager essence, “Mr Jones, it is basically a fixed-rate product. It because they had dealt with them for so long. will protect you in the same way as a fixed-rate product Having been persuaded by Mr Jones’s transcript to would protect your house.”His problems and the financial look into this issue, I started asking questions, and as a effect of his decision to sign up to that product have result I came across the Federation of Small Businesses been extremely damaging. He was misled, given that the working hard on this issue and the organisation Bully- description of the product as akin to a fixed-rate product Banks. We have identified literally thousands of businesses was, to say the least, economical with the truth. that have been affected, and debates such as this are necessary to show that the House understands and Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab): I cares about the problem and wants to see a resolution. congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. I apologise for being a tad late in getting to the Chamber. John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): I I assume that the person his constituent was talking to congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his leadership of was fully qualified under the Financial Services Authority this debate. He is looking for evidence and examples, to sell that product. I have some constituency business but has he come across Guardian Care Homes, a firm in which, clearly, there is a real issue about the competence with two care homes in my constituency? Its problem 1049 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1050 was that the term of the swaps that it was sold far alone—and in the current economic climate we should exceeded the term of the loans to which they were not accept the loss of any businesses or jobs as a result linked. of mis-selling.

Guto Bebb: That is a key issue. In many cases, the Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): Do we not term of the swap is longer than that of the loan, which also need to get on with it because lots of claims are the Financial Services Authority believes to be evidence time-limited? Some of my constituents have only until of mis-selling. October this year to launch a claim, and they need to Evidence about the background to interest rate swaps know the position of the FSA and the Financial suggests that banks started to target small businesses Ombudsman Service so that they know whether to have from about 2006 onwards. The practice was probably recourse to the law. curtailed in 2008-09, although there are a few examples of such products being sold after that. In a number of Guto Bebb: That is an important point. As many of cases, banks have settled with businesses out of court. these products were sold from 2006 onwards, many My concern is that banks have placed significant gagging affected businesses are now watching the clock run orders on those businesses, which stops them explaining down on their opportunity to take action. That crucial the terms and conditions of the settlement. point should resonate within the Chamber and outside. Existing regulations should have been taken into In addition to the two duties I have mentioned, account when these products were sold. Swaps are advisers must also take reasonable steps to show that financial derivatives covered by section 85 of the Financial the client understands the product and the risks involved. Services and Markets Act 2000. They are, therefore, a The bank must also take steps to ensure that the product regulated product and any adviser who is tries to sell is suitable. Mr Jones was sold a product by RBS. I wrote them has a duty to understand the needs of their to RBS on his behalf, and was shocked that, in one customer. That is a key point. A fair, clear and not transaction, I could highlight seven breaches of conduct misleading explanation of the product must be provided of business sourcebook regulations. I cannot take the to the customer, yet in many of the cases I have seen, the time to go through all seven examples, but I shall give a information provided was far from satisfactory. few. For one, RBS never sought to quantify the termination costs for the swap, which is a pretty severe piece of Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): I, too, negligence, in my view. Neither did it take reasonable congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. steps to ensure that it was in possession of sufficient Does he share my concern about the experience of personal financial information about Mr and Mrs Jones, Castlewood Hotels in my constituency? It was sold such which is also a big issue. It did not take reasonable steps a product by the bank and told that if it did not accept to ensure that they understood the nature of the risks it, its business could be in jeopardy in future. involved or provide a suitability letter. These are breaches of COBS rules and should be taken very seriously. To Guto Bebb: Again, that is an important point. In break seven such rules in one case raises the question: significant numbers of cases a swap product has been what were the banks doing? sold to a business as a condition of a loan being made I can highlight a number of general mis-selling examples. available, so that the future availability of credit was In some cases, businesses have been provided with a dependent on the acceptance of a swap product. Obviously, product not suitable for them and products have been a business in need of finance would be persuaded of the described as similar to fixed-rate mortgages, as I have need to take up that product in order to receive finance, already mentioned. There are also numerous examples and that is a key issue. of no opinion analysis being provided, meaning that a business was offered one product alone. I challenge the Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con) rose— banks to state that that was not because of commission issues. Guto Bebb: I will, of course, give way to the Chair of the Treasury Committee. Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): That is the key. Many businesses have contacted me about that very Mr Tyrie: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for securing point. It was a case of, “Take it or leave it.” Only one this important debate. As he will know, the Committee product was offered, and obviously people who needed is already looking into this matter and has written to finance for their businesses took it, with the dreadful the FSA and the Financial Ombudsman Service asking consequences we have seen. them to investigate fully and get back to us. He may not be aware, however, that we also raised this issue with the Guto Bebb: I agree wholeheartedly with the hon. chairman of the FSA, who has promised to provide a Gentleman. progress report by the end of July. The Committee is extremely anxious, not least because a number of it Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): That is a good point. I have members, including me, have seen constituents with a constituent, whom I will not name, who is a farmer exactly the sort of complaint my hon. Friend outlines. and was offered such an arrangement completely inappropriately. He said specifically that he did not Guto Bebb: I am aware that the FSA has promised to want it. None the less, his bank, Barclays, wrote to him provide a progress report, and I sincerely hope that that on 6 June 2008 with a contract, which he read in detail, will be with us before the end of July, if not sooner. My but on 10 June sent him the final contract, into which it concern is that businesses are being put into administration had slipped two clauses that turned it into this sort of as we speak—we have seen examples of that this week agreement. He accepts that he probably should have 1051 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1052

[Tessa Munt] was a condition of the loan agreement that they entered into. Some Members might say that the way forward is read the second document, but it did not indicate at all therefore for individual businesses to take legal action that it had changed the arrangement. That was very on that basis, but I have concerns about that. A solicitor poor. said to me yesterday that the problem in England and Wales is that the law is far too bank-friendly. There is a Guto Bebb: That is another example that should be concern that in many cases businesses that take legal taken on board in this debate. action face costly cases before the banks finally settle Another example of general mis-selling already touched and put in place a gagging order. It is also a concern upon is where a swap is for a period longer than the that small businesses should be expected to fund their loan. I have also seen examples of where the swap was own cases when they are already in crisis for a sum in excess of the loan. Another crucial example is where the break cost for terminating the swap was described in one e-mail from a bank as being £9,000 Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con): Will my hon. but, three years later, when the customer approached Friend take an intervention? the bank to break the swap, a figure of £135,000 was quoted to settle. I fail to understand how it could go Guto Bebb: I will not take another intervention, due from less than £10,000 to £135,000 in three years. That to the guidance from Madam Deputy Speaker. is another example of mis-selling. Another one worth mentioning is where the bank classified the client as a Small businesses that have to take legal action also professional client and experienced derivative trader. I face the risk of losing the support of their banks. There can assure the House that the business in question was are examples of loans being called in or overdraft blissfully unaware of the nature of the product it was facilities being taken away from businesses that are buying, yet, for paperwork purposes, the bank had taking action. I therefore do not think that the way described it as a professional client rather than a retail forward is necessarily to expect individual businesses to client. take action against the banks, unless we can have some certainty that the banks will not act in that way. It is generally agreed, then, that there is an issue here. The FSA accepts it is an issue. Bully-Banks, an organisation The scale of the problem is significantly greater than representing 350 victims, has done some work highlighting we have accepted to date. Today the Law Society Gazette that 96% of businesses in its organisation were approached gives the figure of about 4,000 businesses affected, with about such products by relationship managers. Businesses about £1 billion-worth of potential claims. In my view did not go looking for these products; they were approached that figure is probably an underestimate, so the scale of with a solution to a problem that often they did not the problem should be taken seriously. have. Some 87% of businesses surveyed by Bully-Banks Let me state what I am calling for from this debate. It were unaware that the adviser was not an adviser but a is very easy to have a debate in which we all highlight salesperson, and there was a general lack of understanding. our concerns about individual businesses and our belief In 95% of cases, businesses stated categorically that that the banks have behaved badly, but this House has a they entered into these agreements on the basis of responsibility to try to offer a solution. We need to advice and guidance given by their bank relationship encourage the Financial Services Authority to move managers. more quickly to a resolution of this issue. It needs to inform the banks that, for example, they have an obligation Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I would like to offer and a responsibility to act fairly with their clients. We my hon. Friend an explanation of why banks are doing also need some transparency from the banks about the this kind of mis-selling. In my private Member’s Bill exact size of the problem. We know, for example, that last year on the regulation of derivatives, I explained between 2006 and 2010 the banks engaged in significant how mark-to-market rules allowed banks to up-front amounts of swaps. Some of them might have been unrealised cash flows to declare profit immediately on completely legitimate, but quite a few were sold to small moneys that they have not received. I wonder whether businesses. the Treasury Committee will investigate whether that is a key factor in encouraging this bad business. Those small businesses are feeling under pressure from their banks, so my specific request today is for the Guto Bebb rose— Minister to call on the FSA to give written assurances that the banks will not adversely treat any business that Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): Order. makes a complaint. We live in a country governed by Before the hon. Gentleman rises to deal with that point, law. If a business wants to make a complaint, it should may I gently remind him that he was supposed to speak not be subject to undue pressure from its bank. In the for about 10 minutes? He has been extremely generous same way, if a complaint has been made to a bank or in taking interventions, but there is a time limit for the FSA, the bank should refrain from foreclosing on everyone else who wants to contribute, and it is getting that business. Those are my short-term requests for the shorter the longer he speaks. Minister. In the long term, I think it is crucial— Guto Bebb: Thank you for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will refrain from taking any more Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman interventions and finish my comments. was allocated 10 minutes. He has now been speaking for The figures from Bully-Banks illustrate the fact that 20 minutes. There are something like 15 Members wishing businesses feel that they have been mis-sold such products. to take part in this debate, which is due to conclude at The final figure from Bully-Banks that is worth mentioning 2.30 pm. Can he please now make one more, brief is that 75% of its members claim that the swap product remark and then resume his seat? 1053 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1054

Guto Bebb: I was coming on to my final request, that there should be no coercion involved. I have written which is that in the long term we must avoid a repeat of to the bank in question and requested that no punitive what happened with PPI—payment protection insurance— measures be taken against the company in my constituency which has created an ambulance-chasing gift for solicitors while the complaint is ongoing. of disreputable means. We should have a system that allows such cases to be settled in a constructive manner, Glyn Davies: The scale of this problem is far greater in agreement between the FSA, the banks and their than we are being told. I have two examples in which the clients. people I have spoken to are not going to take action. They have other clients and they are afraid to take Hon. Members: Hear, hear. action because they fear that they will be punished and that future relationships could be damaged. This is a Madam Deputy Speaker: I remind Members that the huge problem, and we are seeing only part of it. time limit is eight minutes for Back Benchers. There are a large number who wish to participate in this important Emma Reynolds: I totally agree with the hon. Gentleman. debate. It may therefore be necessary to reduce the time I would very much like to hear from the Minister today limit. We shall have to see how we proceed, but we shall whether the Government have a grasp of the scale of start with eight minutes. the problem, as it is certainly significant.

12.24 pm John Healey: Like my hon. Friend, I have written to Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab): the head of Barclays, which was responsible for selling I, too, would like to applaud the hon. Member for the two swaps that have cost Guardian Care Homes at Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) for delivering such a fantastic least an extra £12 million so far. Does my hon. Friend speech. I want to tell the House about a similar case in agree with the point being made on both sides of the my constituency. It is the case of Guardian Care Homes, House that such small companies are often afraid to and it has already been mentioned by my right hon. complain, for fear that their loans will be pulled? Does Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John she also agree that a moratorium is needed following Healey). The company’s headquarters are in my complaints, and that firms should be able to make constituency, but it employs about 900 staff in 30 care collective challenges for redress? homes across the country. Small and medium-sized enterprises such as these need to be supported, rather Emma Reynolds: I thank my right hon. Friend for than exploited. making those points, and I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to them in due course, if not today. I recently met members of the senior management at Guardian Care Homes, and I was shocked by what they There seems to be an extremely worrying level of told me. In 2007, they were sold two interest rate swap coercion involved in the banks’ selling these products to products, which were taken out against existing loans small businesses without making sufficient information that had been taken out to improve the business model available. I have no doubt that what happened to the and to improve the care homes. They also said that the company in my own constituency has been replicated bank that sold them the products told them that this across the country. That is regrettable at a time of such was a condition of getting the original loans, and that difficult economic uncertainty when small businesses the products would protect them against interest rate are the backbone of the British economy. We need to rises. They were not informed of the dangers and financial make sure that they are supported, not systematically implications of interest rate falls, however. According exploited. to Guardian Care Homes, the bank did not at any point during the sale of those swaps fulfil its obligation to Tessa Munt: I have a quick point. One of my constituents explain that such costs could be incurred. took his local bank manager to Bristol to talk to Guardian Care Homes also discovered that the swaps Barclays about what had happened, yet that local bank that had been sold to them vastly exceeded the original manager did not understand it. If bank staff do not terms of the loans, by 10 and 15 years respectively, understand what is going on in this situation, how is a which made things incredibly difficult for the company farmer who has so many things to consider every day in the long term. An independent study of this specific meant to understand it? case recently described the bank’s behaviour as reckless, and a complaint has been made against the bank. It Emma Reynolds: The trust between the bank and beggars belief that banks were requiring SMEs to take SMEs certainly seems to have been exploited, as the these products alongside loans, and I look forward to hon. Member for Aberconwy demonstrated, although hearing the Minister’s response to these points today. one would have hoped that the banks would support small, viable businesses rather than exploit them. Even if the case involving the company in my constituency had been a one-off, it would have been rose— extremely worrying, but there appear to be hundreds, if Several hon. Members not thousands, of SMEs in the same situation. I am sure that we shall hear of cases in other right hon. and Emma Reynolds: I shall not speak for much longer, as hon. Members’ constituencies later. Anecdotal evidence I know others want to contribute. from SMEs suggests that, in many cases, swaps were Let me end by asking the Minister a few specific bought without the companies having received any legal questions. Will she reassure us that the Government are advice on their nature. The banks have a duty when taking this issue seriously? What are the Government selling financial products to ensure that the products doing to ensure that SMEs struggling with these swap and the risks involved are identified to businesses, and agreements are supported in the short term and will not 1055 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1056

[Emma Reynolds] for those with small turnovers employing fewer than 10 people. My affected constituents are not eligible for have punitive measures imposed on them by the banks assistance from the ombudsman, having too high a if they complain about these issues? What steps are the turnover and too many employees. So they have been Government taking to ensure that this practice will not forced to consider court action. However, as one of happen in the future? Do they have any idea of the time them said: scale for the Financial Services Authority report? “how can you sue a bank you need to support you?” In any case, the maximum redress the Financial Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con): The Ombudsman Service can award is limited to £150,000, hon. Lady is making her case in a typically powerful which is scant compensation when one of my constituents way. One of my constituents tried to take legal recourse assures me that he has been charged an additional against Barclays and was subsequently threatened with £6.1 million on a £3 million loan and he has already foreclosure of his loan, which would result in him being made payments into the interest rate swap agreement of forced to sell his house, even though he was not in over £1 million. arrears, unless he signed a waiver removing his right to take legal action. Does the hon. Lady agree that such Damian Collins: Does my hon. Friend agree that this punitive action is utterly unconscionable? looks like old-fashioned extortion? Were the banks not simply trying to obtain the maximum possible rate, with Emma Reynolds: I think it is utterly disgusting that the threat that rates might rise even higher unless people this is happening. We are told that our banks are too big took advantage of the product? to fail. They have taken advantage of significant Caroline Nokes: Let me reply to my hon. Friend by Government intervention, yet now we find that they are quoting a constituent who said to me, quite seriously, not even supporting viable small businesses across the “I would have been better off going to Wonga.” country. Something needs to be done about this urgently, so I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to I welcome the FSA’s decision to review these products, say. and sincerely hope that the outcome will be assistance for the thousands of small businesses that have been affected. We should not forget that they are the lifeblood 12.32 pm of the British economy. As that same constituent said, he is paying £3 million on top of the interest on an Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) £8 million loan. The loan was for only three years, but (Con): I start by adding my congratulations to my hon. the swap product was for 10. As he said, if he had not Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) not been stuck into the product he would have expanded only on securing today’s debate, but on the immense more, employed more people, and paid more tax to the work he has done on this subject over the past few Exchequer. He also came out with a fantastic remark months. which really hit home in describing precisely the sort of I do not pretend that the mis-selling of interest rate small business man to whom these products have been swap agreements is a huge issue in my constituency; in sold. He said, “I left school with no qualifications. I fact, it has been raised by only a very small number of learnt my maths by scoring darts at my father’s pub. Yet constituents who are local business owners. For the suddenly I am involved in interest rate future, caps, individuals affected, however, it is a massive issue, and collars, derivatives, curves, flows. All I wanted was a as they contribute to the local economy, provide jobs loan.” for local people and use local services to assist with My constituent is in no doubt about the fact that the their businesses in the region, the knock-on effect has loan to expand his business was dependent on the swap the potential to be very significant indeed. product. He has been quite clear about the position. His It has been reported that RBS and Barclays, two of bank has been threatening him, telling him not to raise the UK’s biggest high street lenders to small business, the matter with his Member of Parliament or to pursue have sold in the region of 7,000 of these products the complaint via the courts. Land sales over which the between them. I can certainly add Lloyds bank to the bank has had a charge have been delayed until he makes list, as one of my constituents has had significant his intentions regarding court action known to the difficulties with that bank, which sold him this product bank. All the while, his business has been saddled with a several years ago. swap product which, against the odds, he has managed Interest rate swap agreements are highly complex. As to service. It has cost him more than £1 million over the one of my constituents pointed out, these are the territory last four years, and his business, family and employees of corporate bankers, but have been sold to chip shop have faced uncertainty. owners, to care home providers, as we have heard, and I commend the work of my hon. Friend in pursuing indeed to landlords. A constituent who approached me this issue. I have no doubt that, as the motion says, is the owner of a company that rents out a significant prompt action is needed to ensure that small businesses number of properties in Southampton, largely to the do not continue to suffer as my constituents have. Their student market. He pointed out that, should his company banks must not be allowed to threaten them. fail, 1,000 individuals could be turfed out on to the streets of Southampton in the middle of their studies. 12.36 pm What redress do these businesses have should it all go Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab): wrong? I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Aberconwy Fear of the bank calling in the debt has kept many (Guto Bebb) on securing the debate, and on the work quiet. Micro-businesses have the option of going to the that he has done in encouraging Members in all parts of Financial Ombudsman Service, but that is possible only the House to become involved in local cases. 1057 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1058

My constituents do not want their names to be used our economic recovery—may have paid at least £10 billion because they are embarrassed by their position—although in extra interest costs for IRSPs, and face extra liabilities they have no need to be, because, as we have already of over £20 billion, potentially impacting on 80,000 heard today, they are not the only ones to find themselves jobs. in such a position. In November 2007, they were invited This is not a trivial matter. It has consequences for to a meeting in Glasgow by the Bank of Scotland. economic growth as well as for the individual businesses There was a fancy PowerPoint presentation, but it did concerned. The financial ombudsman has rejected 66 not explain adequately the downside of the product complaints relating to the sale of IRSPs against RBS, that my constituents were being offered. Indeed, this apparently because the banks have a disclaimer saying was described by the bank’s relationship manager—which that they do not give advice. How do we define “advice”, is a laugh in itself—as a win-win situation. The Herald, however? There was certainly hard-sell, weighted towards which has taken up the cause, described it rather more the positive aspects of deals, and it appears that the accurately as a “heads they win, tails you lose” situation. banks did not abide by their responsibility to ensure The contract was struck verbally in a tape-recorded that any product they sell is appropriate, in the customer’s conversation. My constituents had had a 20-year best interests and fully understood. relationship with the bank, and it seemed reasonable to I realise that these are complex financial instruments rely on verbal trust and good will, because that had that take time to investigate. However, action must be been their experience over all those years. They believed taken as soon as possible. It is undoubtedly true that that they could take the bank’s word, and that the bank regulation has in the past been insufficiently robust, so I would follow through what had been agreed. They are welcome the creation of the Financial Conduct Authority, shocked by the scale of the impropriety that they have especially as it will focus on early intervention. witnessed, and we know that they are not alone in that Previous mis-selling situations have gone on and on, view. and have caused a great deal of distress to the victims. The bank’s behaviour in derivative selling has been We know from experience that the worry these issues reprehensible. It has bottled out, in the words of my causes can lead to serious health problems and some constituents, because the rate swing does not suit it, and people die before justice is done. it has no appetite to proceed with what was agreed We already know that the banks are not being transparent although no risk is posed to it. My constituents feel that over this matter, and in some cases are being downright the bank should be compelled to implement its selling obstructive and unco-operative. We should not allow commitments, or at least to reverse the arrangements as stalling tactics to impede putting in place a remedy. It is far as the point of sale to remove the premium/penalty our responsibility as elected representatives to take this element, which it is working both ways to suit itself with up immediately and encourage those who have been no regard for what it agreed with its customers. It seems affected to come forward. Experience shows that a confident that it can get away with that because the collective response is more effective in getting things structuring of the arrangements relied on verbal trust sorted out. and good will. It is not in the interests of the banks to have another To add insult to injury, the bank has destroyed the long-running mis-selling scandal unfolding in a very tape of the conversation, wiping out the evidence that public way. That will do nothing to restore public proves the verbal side of the bargain. When they requested confidence. I understand that there is a six-year time the tapes, they were first told the bank had them, then bar for claims as well. Speed is of the essence, therefore, they were told they had been lost in the wake of the and I urge the Government to do all they can to make bank merger, and finally they were told the tapes had sure this situation is dealt with quickly. been destroyed as the bank keeps them for only one year. How convenient for the bank. That has left my Several hon. Members rose— constituents even more vulnerable, however—and, frankly, conned. The bank refuses to discuss the matter with Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. Because them in any meaningful way, denying a meeting with so many Members wish to speak, the time limit on anyone with any genuine decision-making power. This contributions will now fall to seven minutes. has been ongoing for months, and they received a response to their complaint only yesterday. It was a glib and bland response; the bank did not engage in any 12.43 pm meaningful way with what was a very detailed complaint. Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD): I congratulate my hon. Mr Clive Adamson of the Financial Services Authority Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on told me its rules require the firm to investigate the securing this important debate and on his excellent complaint and revert to the consumer within eight work on the matter under discussion. weeks. The bank is therefore breaching FSA rules in I am a former finance director of a £1-billion global respect of the complaints procedure, in addition to its business, so I am well aware of the benefits of bank conduct in the original sale. services and financial products such as exchange rate So far, these are the only constituents who have hedging, but I am shocked that they are deemed appropriate contacted me on this matter, but I feel sure many more for small businesses. Like other Members, I have received of them have been affected. The Herald estimates hundreds complaints, and I shall highlight two of them. of struggling Scottish businesses have been caught up in Stephen Lilley is a constituent of mine and I believe this, with the 83%-taxpayer owned Royal Bank of Scotland he is present in the Gallery now—probably. He has alone costing thousands of UK companies £3 billion in given me permission to raise his case. He owns a hardware extra bank payments. Its investigation shows that UK company in Marske-by-the-Sea, and in late 2006 he small businesses—which, as we all know, are crucial to bought an interest swap covering 15 years. I have read 1059 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1060

[Ian Swales] hedging in the very early months of his contract, but these products remain toxic. Clear discussions should the telephone transcripts of the conversations between have taken place at the time as to whether the borrowers HSBC and the directors of his company whereby the wanted variable or fixed rates. swap was agreed, and they show a clear example of Many small businesses such as those I am discussing mis-selling. are reluctant to challenge their lenders on these specific The directors made it clear that this was their first issues, as they do not want to put their bank facilities at ever business venture. They wanted loans for a maximum risk. The Financial Ombudsman Service rarely upholds of 15 years and hoped to have them paid off before the complaints, so their only recourse is a litigation process, end of that period. During a complex discourse on the which, obviously, serves only to incur more costs. Bankers products, one statement made was: seem to be working for themselves first and for their “The reason we do this rather than doing say an…inclusive clients second. We heard just a few weeks ago about fixed rate is that in the future if you want to renegotiate or look at Goldman Sachs referring to its clients as “muppets”. your lending margin, obviously you can’t do that if it’s included as This world of over-complicated products and dodgy part of the fixed rate”. selling has to stop. Those were apparently warm words. A number of other A small business person should be able to rely on a inappropriate comments were made in the conversation, bank to work in their interests, and not be seen as a and no mention was made of the fees being earned by sales channel to another part of its organisation. We the seller. should not expect business people to be personally The climate is tough for the hardware shop and, in a expert in these kinds of products, nor should they have move that can be described only as bullying, it is now to pay separately for a financial adviser. We should also being charged £500 a month for a “relationship manager” remember that accountants—and I am one—may not who provides no service. I fail to understand the logic of be allowed to give advice on these kinds of products charging a struggling business an extra fee for struggling. unless they are also registered as financial advisers. So Mr Lilley is not a young man and he now faces the real these products have clearly been designed to make prospect of losing his business and his house, and, as I money for the banks, which, by definition, means extracting understand it, still being locked into a financial product more money from the small and medium-sized business that was badly sold. It is difficult for him to fight the sector. Some of these products are no more appropriate bank on which he depends so heavily, and I see it as our for small businesses than they would be for a household responsibility to fight for people in his position. mortgage. Banks are surely worried about their reputations, I would also like to highlight the case of another of and I have been very happy to name and shame HSBC my constituents. The case of Mr Roy Myers has been today. Banks can recover their reputation by dealing mentioned on the BBC, and it has features common to constructively and generously with those affected, rather many of the other cases we are hearing about. Roy owns than engaging in continuous and expensive litigation. the outstanding O’Grady’s hotel in Redcar and the Special consideration should be given to those such as Victoria pub in Saltburn. He is not naive; he has owned Mr Lilley, whose arrangement, made in November 2006, other pubs and hotels, and formerly had a responsible would almost certainly have breached the FSA suitability job in Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. He had regulations introduced in November 2007. I agree with negotiated a loan and was presented with a base rate the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma swap agreement to sign on the very day when he simply Reynolds) on the urgency of dealing with this problem, expected to sign for the loan. No proper selling took given that Mr Lilley’s arrangement is six years old in place and he was given no options. It was never properly five months’ time. explained to him that he was locked in for 10 years and I salute my constituents’ bravery in coming forward that there could be huge exit costs. Mr Myers had and hope that more will do so. I hope also that right previously bought and sold businesses and paid off hon. and hon. Members will support the recently announced loans, and he never expected to be locked in like this FSA investigation. Finally, I hope that the Minister will because of a financial product. act swiftly on the FSA’s recommendations and take another step to stop such predatory activity by banks in Damian Collins: My hon. Friend mentions that the our vital SME sector. exit costs had not been properly explained. Does he share my concern about this issue, as my constituent is 12.50 pm in a situation where what were called “negligible” exit costs ended up being worth more than 50% of the value Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) of the loan? (PC): Diolch, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am grateful to you for the opportunity to speak. As others have done, I Ian Swales: I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. congratulate the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto He raises an important point that is true of many of the Bebb) on his hard work and on securing this debate on cases we are talking about today. the Floor of the House. To be fair to the banks—not a phrase I expect to hear Two constituents have visited my surgeries to highlight a lot in this debate—I have pointed out to Mr Lilley and the problems they have endured as a result of these Mr Myers that people in their position may have considered complex products. I shall not pretend to understand a fixed-rate term product had it been offered at the time. how they work, but the end result has been devastating So some of the loss figures we are now talking about for my constituents’ businesses. I am therefore glad to may be a bit misleading, as they can be calculated only learn today that the FSA is to investigate and the with hindsight and, in effect, constitute a one-way bet. Treasury Committee has interest rate swap products on Mr Lilley did in fact make small gains through rate its radar. 1061 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1062

What strikes me in the cases brought to my attention My constituents had initially agreed to a normal is the aggressive manner in which the products were standard loan agreement with the bank. They did not sold to businesses, often by bank managers who had understand the implications of signing up to these been dealing with the businesses for some years. It is products, especially the exit fees. As the Monetary clear to me that local bank managers were under orders Policy Committee lowered interest rates, their repayments to sell the products, without themselves understanding reached an unsustainable level at nearly double what what they were selling. Relationships with local businesses they had been under the normal standard loan are built up over a number of years, so those businesses arrangements. On the invitation of their local bank would have trusted their local bank manager. After the manager, they met officers from Barclays Capital. They initial meetings, specialist teams were brought in to were completely unaware that their business was being process the deal. The business men who came to see me transferred from the local bank to the investment arm. in my surgery said that they felt under enormous pressure Every time they queried the terms of their loan with to sign up to the deal. They were told that only a small Barclays, they were hit with enormous fees, which furthered window of time was open to them to take what was their business’s spiralling financial problems. They inform deemed to be the opportunity of a lifetime. me that the local bank manager was unable to deal with their queries, despite charging the fees. I suspect that what we are seeing is the unholy mix of retail and investment banking. The job of a local bank From the evidence I have received from constituents manager is to pursue boring banking, but it is clear on these products, it is clear that profitable businesses that, in this instance, they were selling products they have been mis-sold products by their banks. I look would not normally be associated with, resulting in forward to reading the findings of the FSA and the disastrous consequences for the businesses that entered Treasury Committee. I will finish by saying that I associate into the deals. myself completely with the proposals put forward by the hon. Member for Aberconwy. The products were sold as offering protection in the event of interest rate rises. In the pre-crash years, that would have been a concern to any household or business 12.56 pm that was taking out a large loan, so it is easy to understand Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest) (Con): I, too, would like why the products would be attractive to many businesses. to add my name to the long list of people who will be In his recent statement on banking reform, the Financial congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy Secretary to the Treasury equated them to a fixed rate (Guto Bebb) on securing not only the debate, but a mortgage, but my understanding of a fixed rate mortgage—I great deal of support from the outside world and a hope I am right, because I have one myself—is that the community that has been badly affected by these events. loan repayment stays constant for the duration of the loan term, which certainly is not the case with these I suspect that we are now at the beginning of what swap products. As interest rates fell following the financial will amount to yet another large mis-selling scandal. I crash, businesses’ repayments started to increase completely endorse the comment of my hon. Friend the enormously. Member for Aberconwy that the last thing we need is the spectacle of bus loads of ambulance-chasing lawyers Sad to say, after two years in this place I have morphed charging across the countryside looking for businesses into an arch-cynic. It seems to me a huge coincidence that have been mis-sold these products. It is incredibly that heavy selling of interest rate swap products started important that we try to resolve the problem before in 2006 and 2007. In the case of Barclays, it is clear that members of the legal profession take advantage of it as the investment arm was pushing the products on the an opportunity to feather their nests. These events come retail bankers. I am interested to know whether the FSA at a time when small businesses are struggling to make or the Treasury Committee, as their work proceeds, will sales and win orders and contracts. It is a time when the be able to find out whether local bank managers were banking system is adding yet another problem to small working to commission to identify clients who could be businesses. It is something we need to try to resolve. targeted to sign up to the products. These products, which really amount to caps and Financial planners are clever people. They would collars, should have been relatively straightforward products. have been more aware than anyone that their own They should not be dissimilar to a fixed-rate mortgage. recklessness was about to end in the bust of all busts in Rather than being like a fixed-rate mortgage stating 2008. They would surely have been aware that the that the customer will pay 3% or 5% for five years, for obvious policy response of the central bank to such a example, they should have stated that the customer crisis would be to ease monetary policy so that interest would pay between no less than 3% and no more than rates fell; and that the loan repayments of anybody 8% over a five-year period or whatever. In that respect, signed up to these products would increase significantly. such a product would have been a very straightforward For the bank, of course, its customers’ misfortune would cap and collar. be good news, as the extra repayments would enable it The problem is that the products were written before to recapitalise after the crash. Even better, as has been this period of super-low interest rates. Of course, interest the case with my constituents, with businesses going rates have since fallen well below the collar, so the bust the banks would have assets to sell for even greater products are not actually cap and collar products; they profit. In my view, this makes the complete separation are cap and noose products. Rather than holding the of retail and investment banking an imperative. The interest rate at the lower level, the noose has the effect of recent commitment in the White Paper to creating bouncing the interest rate up, thereby creating a higher separate accounting units will not be enough. If my rate than the customer would otherwise have expected reading of the White Paper is correct, these products and, in some cases, than they would have paid at the are actually exempted. rate of interest in the first place. 1063 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1064

[Mark Garnier] that this is not just about people not understanding the situation, but about an intention in many cases by The result is that these products are far more complex people not to inform customers because they wanted than they would normally have been. I declare a history the business for their own bank? of serving as a compliance officer for an FSA-regulated firm before being elected to this place. We used to spend Mark Garnier: The hon. Member— a huge amount of time ensuring that we classified our clients properly to make sure that the products that Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): were sold were aligned with the abilities. I fear that what Hon. Friend. is happening here is that we have a misalignment of customer classification. There are salesmen who are not Mark Garnier: My hon. Friend has almost been experts in the products and do not know a huge amount reading my speech, because I am about to finish on that about them, and they are selling them to customers who point. are clearly not experts in the products at all. Under There are mismatches of terms and objectives, and these circumstances, a huge problem is brewing. on this issue I have a fundamental problem with the The Chair of the Treasury Committee mentioned the banks. A bank manager used to be a customer’s friend, fact that in yesterday’s Sub-Committee meeting we met whom they could turn to for financial advice, who Adair Turner, who assured us that he would go to great would look after them and who, much more importantly, lengths to investigate the whole process. Subsequently, I had their interests at heart. The problem is that banks asked Martin Wheatley, the other witness and director are now simply salesmen looking for another product to of the FSA’s conduct business unit, whether the authority sell, and it does not quite matter to them what holistic will be looking into the whole business of misclassifying package is being sold as long as an individual product clients as well as salesmen, and he said that without a is. shadow of doubt it will be specifically doing so, so I I simply do not understand why the banks are failing sincerely hope that we will reach a speedy resolution on to get the message that they are breathtakingly unpopular. that issue. They have really made a pig’s ear of our economy and financial system, so why do they continue to do so—in Ian Swales: The hon. Gentleman makes a powerful the face of the public opinion? It does not make any point. He makes the point also that we do not expect sense, so I make this appeal to the banks: please take a small business owners to be experts, but their accountants look at this issue. If you have created what should be a are not often experts, either. The people whom they deal collar and cap arrangement, but it turns out to be a cap with who will most often be experts are their bankers, so and noose arrangement, negotiate with your customer, where does he feel that small business owners should get help them out, stop feeding solicitors lots of money and their independent financial advice from? try to resolve it in order to get back to a situation where bank managers are people we can trust. Mark Garnier: That is an incredibly important point. We live in an ever-increasingly complex world, and 1.3 pm banks are competing against each other to come up Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con): I with more and more sophisticated products that appear join the chorus of people congratulating my hon. Friend to be user-friendly, such as simple fixed-rate mortgages. the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing But as products become more complex there are more this debate. hidden elements in the contracts that people sign, such I have to confess that I am a former banker— as in the one under discussion, whereby in a completely [Interruption.] At Barclays bank. I am not sure whether unforeseen period of super-low interest rates, business becoming a politician was a move up or down; I might owners have to pay what amounts to a fee to buy try estate agency next. I worked for Barclays bank in themselves out of the contract’s residual value. both the corporate and personal sectors, where I had People then get into very complex calculations to try responsibility for a regulated sales force, and I still hold to understand what is going on, and the economic value my financial planning certificate and certificate in mortgage of, and internal rate of return on, the contract. That is advice and practice, so I, like my hon. Friend, have a when things go way above the pay grade of most people, healthy scepticism when customers complain about bank apart from those specialists sitting in dealing rooms in products, because often when things go well it is put Canary Wharf who really understand such stuff. So, as down to their good fortune, but when things go badly it part of the banking review and the Financial Services is put down to mis-selling. Bill that is passing through Parliament, we need to look I had a fairly healthy dose of scepticism when my very carefully at the classification of customers and of constituents came to see me to complain about the salespersons in order to get back to the fundamental products under discussion, but I was genuinely shocked point that we have to match products to a customer’s and appalled when I found out what had been done to ability to deal with them. them. I want to raise the case of a widow who had a small buy-to-let property portfolio. She was interested George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): I in reducing her mortgage outgoings, or at least protecting have seen cases in which, through a process of legal herself from increases in interest rates. Technically, she discovery, a very clear e-mail trail has shown banks falls outside the scope of the motion, Mr Deputy Speaker, wilfully deciding not to explain the disadvantages of but I hope that you will give me some latitude. HSBC, such products and, sometimes, a complete mismatch the bank that I want to name specifically, classified that between the length of their loans and the length of the widow with a small property portfolio as a business product they were selling. Does my hon. Friend agree customer. 1065 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1066

I expected my constituent to have been sold a capped my widow constituent received at the hands of HSBC. I or fixed-rate mortgage product; I did not expect a see no evidence in the paperwork that my constituent’s high-risk interest rate swap, which I would normally circumstances matched the product that was sold. I am have seen in the mid-market or large corporate sectors appalled that a product as complex as an interest rate of the bank. I wrote to HSBC asking them please to swap was sold over the phone—let alone to a customer send me the documentation that proved that they had with no knowledge of financial markets at all. established the process of knowing the customer and I have no doubt that all HSBC’s public affairs teams undertaken the required risk assessment that is absolutely will be crawling all over this debate. I therefore call on necessary to prove that she was a knowledgeable customer the bank to put my constituent back where she was or that her background and experience in other products before she entered into this arrangement, or at least to matched the risk profile of the product that they were put her into a product that is most suitable for her. selling her. The banks are currently brushing off complaints and I also asked the bank to show me the documentation, telling customers to go to court, but few customers have known as a “reason why” letter, showing why the product the reserves to do so. How can a widow living in that they sold my constituent was the most suitable, Hampstead Garden Suburb take on the world’s local rather than other products such as a fixed-rate bank? I support this excellent motion. mortgage—or a capped mortgage, had one been available. I was absolutely, completely blown away when I received a telephone transcript. The customer was not sold the 1.10 pm product in a face-to-face meeting at which the options Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con): I, too, were explained; she was sold it over the phone. congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy I want to read out a couple of snippets from the (Guto Bebb) on his very powerful opening of this transcript. The bank manager—or the clerk—said: debate. “It’s actually…a reducing loan so that implies that it will be I wish to raise the specific case of London and coming down over time.” Westcountry Estates Ltd, a company that owns several A bank manager should know that there is not an business parks all over the south-west and is now in implication that the loan is reducing, but that it actually administration as a direct result, I believe, of the Royal is reducing. The manager went on to say, Bank of Scotland imposing on it an interest swap “and that’s at 1.75 as well and it says that’s reducing as well. So arrangement that was never right for its business. In have you got a certain time period on interest only…?” brief, the background is as follows. For many years, The bank manager clearly had no knowledge of the London and Westcountry had been a premier customer customer. I turn to a particularly juicy bit; the brains on of RBS. Its directors were encouraged by the bank to the Treasury Front Bench might be able to elucidate it, expand. For example, in 2006 RBS approached London but I certainly could not make head or tail of it. The and Westcountry and encouraged it to add to its portfolio client had asked about the ability to repay early, and the a large business park in Bridgwater, and it lent the bank clerk said: company 100% of the finance required. “How it works in real life, if you were locked in at the rate of In July 2008, after the banks had caused the credit 5.35 and after five years you’ve managed to clear all your debt but crunch, RBS insisted that if the company wished to we’ve still got five years left to run, so you pay Carl”— have its borrowing facility renewed, it must enter into a the relationship director— swap arrangement on the basis of an alleged imminent threat of rising interest rates. In fact, independent analysis “off all the debt which is fine but then we’ve got an agreement with the Treasury at 5.35.” has demonstrated that even in July 2008 bank insiders did not really believe that to be true; it was simply a way That is the treasury division of the bank, not Her of selling a product to make a profit on which huge Majesty’s Treasury. The clerk went on: bonuses were paid. “What happens then is we would look at what the five year rate was, the last five years that you’ve got remaining, and if that five Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): Is it not year rate was at six per cent, well then your rate of 5.35 would time for the Financial Services Authority to use its teeth look good if you like so we would pay you something if you were going to unravel the fixed rate deal. But the converse could also be to put a lot of this right? Banks have abused people’s true, that if the five year rate was down at four per cent and your trust and forced them into these deals as a way of rate was 5.35 you’d have to pay to unravel it effectively. So the creating higher interest rates for their customers, whereas thing with a fixed rate you only fix the debt that you…the core we want lower interest rates. debt you really think you’re going to have…if you thought you’d clear it you wouldn’t want to lock yourself in”. Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend makes an important I hope that hon. Members understood that, but even point. Thousands of people in this country, dozens of with my somewhat limited banking background, I was whom are in the Gallery, are looking to the FSA to put completely bemused. Having read that, I saw that there right some of the terrible wrongs that have been done in was no evidence at all that the bank had done its due the past few years. diligence. There was no questioning to see what my It turned out that the company of which I speak had constituent’s attitude to risk was and no evidence of the been persuaded to enter into a swap arrangement for 10 reason why that product was the most suitable in the years at a fixed rate of 6.4%. Although it had been told armoury of the bank. that the deal contained a break clause after three years, In my opinion, HSBC had simply circumvented all it transpired that that enabled only the bank to withdraw the regulations and requirements to know the customer and not the customer. The company later learned that by treating my constituent as a business customer, although breaking the swap arrangement would incur a penalty even business customers would expect better than what that seemed to fluctuate on a daily basis but would total 1067 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1068

[Mr Streeter] the swap penalty of about £13 million. It simply would not budge. We subsequently found out why: that debt millions of pounds. This was not known to it at the time had been earmarked for the Blackstone transaction, of signing the agreement. The way in which the swap and RBS had no interest in resolving it sensibly with was sold patently breached the terms of the financial London and Westcountry. RBS would not give London regulations surrounding such transactions, as other hon. and Westcountry any discount, but it gave Blackstone a Members have said. 30% discount. For a bank that is owned by the taxpayer, Interest rates subsequently plummeted in a way that that is an utter disgrace. nobody had forecast. We all know that if companies It was like going from the frying pan into the fire. The enter into a bad bargain, that is something they have to hard-nosed American venture capitalists were not remotely accept, but this was not just a bad bargain: the company interested in the company’s welfare, nor in its strategic was mis-sold the hedging product to further the interests importance to the south-west. They were interested of the bank, not the customer, and the detailed and only in making as much money as possible from the complex terms were never fully explained to or understood deal. Within weeks, despite my protestations and those by the directors of the company. of other Members of Parliament from the region, London and Westcountry was placed into a completely unnecessary Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con): The administration. Its business parks are now being flogged case that my hon. Friend describes is extremely similar off one by one at a fraction of their true worth. to one that I am involved in, which also involves RBS. We have a credit crisis triggered by the corporate The company concerned has now gone into administration greed of our investment banks; we have inappropriate and the directors have exited. Does he agree that the swap arrangements sold to companies simply to make a long-term implication of a company becoming impaired fat bonus for bankers; and, in the case of London and when the bank has taken a haircut, as it were, is that Westcountry, we have an off-balance sheet sale to a US when those involved try to set up businesses subsequently loan shark, funded by the taxpayer, resulting in the they are unable to borrow from the banks, with or almost immediate administration of a successful company without an interest rate swap, so there is a generational and asset stripping on a breathtaking scale. effect on business? I think that swap mis-selling will become as big a scandal as the mis-selling of payment protection insurance. Mr Streeter: I completely agree that the effects of this We all know that banks must make a profit, but this was mis-selling scandal will ripple down through the generations. not about profit; it was about greed, pure and simple. I Interestingly, on several occasions London and hope that the family behind London and Westcountry Westcountry tried to ascertain how much profit the will successfully sue RBS for many millions of pounds. I treasury branch of RBS made on entering into the swap will do all that I can to help them. As a taxpayer, I hope arrangement, but that has never been disclosed. Once that we will be able to sell RBS one day, but the bank the recession began to bite and values of commercial should certainly be making provision on its balance properties plummeted, companies such as London and sheet for many millions of pounds in future claims for Westcountry began to struggle. A significant variation swap mis-selling. in the company’s loan-to-value calculation meant that it I hope that the FSA investigation concludes that in was in technical default of its loan agreement. It was the mis-selling of swaps, our banks have once again worse placed than many companies because its interest behaved disgracefully, and that they should compensate rate was pegged at 6.4%. When the borrowing facilities all their victims. That is the important thing. I hope that fell to be renewed in 2011, RBS insisted that the interest the individual bankers—and in the case of London and rate would rise still further to 7.5%—a figure that it Westcountry, senior members of Blackstone—feel knew to be unsustainable. Sadly, the story does not end thoroughly ashamed of their disgraceful conduct and there. unbridled greed. I also hope that Ministers will hold the In 2011, I became involved in trying to negotiate with directors of state-owned banks to account and recognise RBS to find a solution to the difficulties. Not once that although the Government are keen to sell the throughout that time did the company default on any banks, issues of justice and compensation must be dealt interest payments to the bank. Indeed, the company got with first. its act together, reduced its overheads and increased its profitability. However, because of the loan-to-value 1.18 pm challenges and because the RBS board had made a strategic decision to withdraw from commercial property, Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I the London and Westcountry loan was bundled up with join colleagues in congratulating my hon. Friend the other troubled loans and sold by RBS to a new company, Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing this Isobel Assetco Ltd, 25% of which is owned by Blackstone, important debate. The many case studies that we have the US venture capital company, and 75% by RBS. That heard this afternoon are very familiar to us and I am removed the potential bad debt from the RBS balance sure that other colleagues have faced similar situations. sheet. However, that £1.36 billion deal was done at a I have, which is why I am taking part in this debate. 30% discount, meaning that it was funded to the amount Before I come on to my constituent’s circumstances, of £550 million by RBS or, indeed, by the taxpayer. it is probably worth setting out why I think that swap It seemed to us that RBS was dragging its feet in arrangements are not suitable to be sold to unsophisticated trying to resolve matters with London and Westcountry, small business men. I do not mean that small business while we were negotiating in good faith. The company men are unsophisticated, but that they do not have an was seeking to refinance its business with another bank, army of lawyers and accountants to advise them. At a but RBS insisted on full repayment of the loans, plus basic level, a swap agreement is a gamble. Mr Deputy 1069 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1070

Speaker, the two of us could enter into a swap agreement year is £111,752 with an additional £71,780 just to this afternoon. I will happily buy you a cup of tea on service the interest rate swap arrangement. I calculate the condition that you will buy me a cup of tea in three that to be an interest rate per year of 14.7%. I do not months’ time. I am gambling that a cup of tea will go up think that when Mr Wardle entered into this arrangement in price so that when you buy me the cup of tea, it will he thought he was going to be paying 14.7% when the cost you more than the cup of tea that I buy you today. base rate is 0.5%. That is the problem. Mr Wardle is a However, we could have a glut of tea and the cost could very successful small business man. He has built up a go down significantly. If so, I will have lost in that number of highly successful businesses and he employs gamble. That is ultimately what a swap arrangement is. a lot of people, but how was he expected to understand Swaps can be very useful to businesses. As Wimbledon that under this arrangement he could lose his home, is coming up, let us take the example of a strawberry having paid hundreds of thousands of pounds in fees, grower. The strawberry grower needs sun at the right all because he was told by his bank, which he trusted, time and could probably take out an insurance policy that he would be safe from interest rate fluctuations? that the sun will shine, or they could find someone who thinks the sun will shine and is willing to take out a bet Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green): I am with them that it will. If the sun does not shine, and it almost reluctant to interrupt the hon. Lady because she rains, that individual would pay the strawberry grower is making such an eloquent case and is giving a very for the rain and the strawberry grower would have useful economics lesson at the same time. I have been money although he would have no strawberries to sell at contacted by a number of my constituents who have Wimbledon. Alternatively, if the sun did shine he would been badly burned by these toxic products. Does she have his strawberries to sell and he would pay the bet agree that the experience she describes of the small because the sun had shone. That is what swap arrangements business person in her constituency, Mr Wardle, is being are. Because they are a gamble, it has to be made repeated right across the country? Indeed, there will be extremely clear to individuals that that is what they are many cases that we do not know about because many entering into. What I and colleagues have seen is that it people are loth to speak out against their bank for fear has not been explained to people that they are taking a that they will have problems with their business reputation. gamble. Does she agree that the issues we are discussing are probably the tip of the iceberg, which makes action That brings me to the case of my constituent, Mr Doug even more urgent? Wardle. Mr Wardle is a very successful local businessman who runs a number of businesses in my constituency. He has a very successful coach transport business and Karen Bradley: I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. his name will be very familiar to people in Staffordshire I called Mr Wardle this morning, before mentioning his Moorlands who see Wardle Transport vehicles going name. I was happy to speak about him anonymously, around. He also has Wardle Property and a number of because I understand that he is in a difficult position. other businesses. Back in 2006, he understandably wanted Hon. Members in all parts of the House have expressed to expand his businesses and wanted a loan. He therefore concerns about their constituents, and I agree that there went to his bank and entered into a loan arrangement must be many other cases of small business people who whereby he borrowed £2.2 million, secured, he thought, do not want to come forward and might not even realise against £3.1 million-worth of property. But there was a that they could approach their MP.They do not want to condition on this loan to expand his business, the travel raise the topic, although they are, frankly, being bullied part of which at one point employed 120 people. The by the banks in such situations. condition was that he would enter into two interest rate I again congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for swap arrangements—one each against two of his businesses. Aberconwy. I support the motion and I hope that we He was told that this would guarantee him a fixed shall see some action very soon. interest rate and that he would be safe from interest rate fluctuations. 1.25 pm Mr Wardle was told that he would be paying 1.57% over base, which he thought was a very good deal. Even Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con): I am grateful to my back in July 2006, that seemed like a very good deal. hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) However, circumstances change and the financial climate for raising this important issue and for campaigning on changed. Unfortunately, by 2010, although his businesses it with such determination. were successful, Mr Wardle was having difficulty negotiating I wish to draw attention to a case study concerning a with his bank. He got to the point at which he had medium-sized business in my constituency, setting out repaid his loan down to £1.25 million, so he had significantly its experiences and seeking to draw some lessons from reduced it, but the bank was not willing to move on the them. At this stage, the business wants to remain interest rate swap arrangements. That has caused Mr Wardle anonymous, as it is seeking to resolve the matter with its an incredible amount of stress and anguish, and he bank without recourse to legal action and it does not faces losing his home. He told me today that it has cost wish to prejudice those negotiations. him £300,000 just to deal with the fees to the bank. In 2005 the business entered an interest rate hedging I have here the figures for the interest rate swap transaction that ran for five years. At the outset, taking arrangements. The cost of buying out the swap arrangement into account the immediate outlook for the economy is £180,000. Mr Wardle has been told that he will be and for interest rates, there was some logic to such paying 3.25% over three-month LIBOR—London an arrangement. In May 2008 the bank contacted interbank offered rate—not the 1.57% over base he the business, recommending and urging it to renew the thought he had, on a £1.25 million loan. I apologise for arrangement for another five years, even though the all the numbers. The amount he has to pay in interest a agreement was not due to expire until 2010, more than 1071 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1072

[Peter Aldous] should be put in place for cases to be investigated quickly with proven claims settled immediately. We do two years away. During the ensuing three to four months, not want this scandal to drag on for years, because that the customer continued to receive correspondence and could undermine the very businesses on which the economic telephone calls from the bank encouraging renewal. recovery needs to be built. At a meeting that took place on 15 August 2008, the Secondly, we need a banking system that is regulated matter was discussed more fully. Subsequently, on 29 and run in a way that prevents such conflicts of interest. October, more than two months later, my constituent In the case I have described, the bank was clearly acting sent an e-mail to the bank advising it that he did not in its own interest rather than that of its customer. wish to renew the agreement. On 4 November he received a contract from the bank for signature. The bank told George Eustice: Does my hon. Friend agree that if him it was confirmation of the verbal agreement reached banks encourage their customers to take up such products, on 15 August. Under pressure, not wishing to upset a they should not then be allowed to provide them through business arrangement with his bank that had been in one of their subsidiary companies? That would be one place for many years and at a time when the economic way of creating a division. outlook was uncertain and the customer was keen to keep on good terms with the bank, he signed the agreement. Peter Aldous: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend—a dog cannot serve two masters. The two acts of advising Earlier this year, my constituent decided, having sold a customer and selling a financial product must be a property, to bring the agreement to an end, so he completely separate and provided by organisations that contacted the bank to establish the cost of doing so. He are independent of each other and not related parties. was advised that that would cost more than £72,000. Up to today, the whole arrangement has cost him I support the motion and look forward to hearing £162,000 in interest charges, which are predicted to have from the Minister about the Government’s proposals risen to £200,000—40% of the value of the loan—by for achieving a prompt resolution to yet another bank the end of the arrangement in September 2015. selling scandal. I have three observations on that chain of events. First, in whose interests was the bank acting? Its own or 1.31 pm its customer’s? Why did it put pressure on him to renew the agreement when there was no need to do so for Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con): I thank another two years, until 2010? In 2008, taking into my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto account the outlook for interest rates and their likely Bebb) for securing this debate. The mis-selling of interest future movements, there was no incentive or reason for rates has affected people in many of our constituencies, the customer to rush to renew. It would have been much including mine. One of my constituents, the owner of a better to see what would happen over the following two geo-environmental company, wanted to take out a long-term years. Any independent adviser acting in the company’s fixed rate product. He wanted a portion of that loan to best interest would have advised it to do that. In my be paid off as and when he had the capital to spare, with view, the bank’s actions were dictated purely by its own no penalties. He also wanted a period of low interest or self-interest rather than in the best interests of its customer. interest-only repayments to assist with cash flow as the Secondly, the bank appears to have been incompetent company embarked on a further phase of expansion. at best, and at worst to have adopted underhand tactics To me, that appears pretty reasonable. in putting pressure on the customer to renew the agreement. NatWest—a bank that has newly entered this debate— Obviously what happened at the meeting on 15 August offered my constituent what he thought he was looking is subject to disagreement, but I personally accept my for at the time and a product that fulfilled his core constituent’s version of events. Surely the best practice requirements. He was given the option of fixing the for the bank to have pursued would have been to take its interest rate by entering into an interest rate swap customer through the arrangement step by step at that agreement with the investment banking arm of RBS—that meeting and, if there was a verbal agreement, to produce wonderful bank that we have again heard about today. a contract immediately and not two months later. A He was given a complicated document but believed that further meeting should have taken place, to go through it represented a mechanism for fixing the interest rates. the contract line by line, until the customer was fully He was given a loan of 1% above base rate but his aware of the implications before signing. The fact that agreement had no expiry date and, in conjunction with the bank did not send the contract for two months, and the interest rate swap agreement, provided an effective only did so because it received an e-mail from its fixed rate of 6.19% for 10 years. customer indicating that he did not wish to proceed, In January 2009, when interest rates were falling and shows it in a very poor light. looked as if they would remain low, my constituent was Thirdly, there is a clear failure by the bank to provide referred to RBS global restructuring group. He inquired full, independent and impartial advice that sets out the whether he could break the fixed-rate interest agreement pros and cons of the transaction, in particular the cost because it was costing his company dearly. It became of breaking early. If my constituent had been aware of apparent, however, that he could do so only if his all those factors, he would not have renewed the company incurred a large financial penalty, which at the arrangement. time totalled £175,000—equivalent to 19.4% of the I am keen to give other hon. Members the opportunity original loan. A break clause was written into his agreement, to state their case, so I will conclude with two points. but it could be acted on only by NatWest, and the First, this whole matter needs to be addressed straightaway punitive break fee meant it was totally impossible for and given high priority by the FSA, and a framework my constituent to refinance with another bank. 1073 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1074

In September 2010 as part of a review of my constituent’s Neil Parish: Does my hon. Friend think that, in many loan, RBS increased the lending margin by 1% to 2%. cases, bank head offices put huge pressure on local That increased the interest rate to 7.19%, which made a managers to sell these products, which local managers mockery of the fixed rate that had been promised back actually have no knowledge about? in 2007. Interest rates were at an historic low of 0.5%, but my constituent was effectively denied the opportunity Heather Wheeler: That is becoming clearer and clearer of taking advantage because he was locked into his as this debate goes on and as more and more constituents IRSA. come out and tell us their stories. Two advisers visited my constituent and went through Damian Collins: Does my hon. Friend agree that the all the advantages of an IRSA, but they did not mention high cost of such exit arrangements means that the banks any possible downsides or advise him to take specialist are profiteering from small businesses that operate on independent advice about the IRSA. He was also told tight margins, and does not in any way reflect the true that he could not get a loan if he did not take out the cost of the refinancing to the bank? IRSA, giving my constituent very little choice over the matter and putting him under considerable pressure to Heather Wheeler: Absolutely; that scandal has emerged accept. It has since become apparent to him that the from today’s debate. so-called advisers were just sales people from the bank set on selling him this product, regardless of any In January 2012, my constituent was informed that, consequence to himself or his business. because his debt to RBS included the fee for breaking the IRSA agreement, the cost of the loan had increased To my constituent’s knowledge, who researched the further to a mind-boggling 23.8% of the loan— matter, only two companies in the UK at the time were approximately £215,000. He was also informed that, qualified to give advice, but both belonged to large City even if he sold his property to repay the loan in full, the firms that would have been beyond his budget. My IRSA would still exist, because it was a separate product constituent is now left with a product that will have cost from the original loan, and that the agreement would him £200,000 by the end of this year alone. I think we last for 10 years. That clearly was not fully explained to would agree that this is a considerable sum of money my constituent, who runs a small business with a healthy for a garden centre. He has had to make several turnover of £2.5 million and employing 30 people. He is redundancies, as well as personal sacrifices, to remain not a financial expert; he trusted his banks, both NatWest solvent, and his business is clearly feeling the ramifications; and RBS, to provide him with advice on a flexible the turnover, which was £2.2 million at the time, has fixed-rate product, as he requested. dropped, with the marketplace as it is, to below £2 million. Furthermore, it is evident that banks are not taking Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con): My claims of mis-selling seriously. Another constituent of hon. Friend mentions trust. In everything we have heard mine, the owner of a motorcycle company, has had a today, has there not been a complete absence of trust? I long banking relationship with Lloyds. In fact, they think, not least, of a constituent of mine and their RBS used to use Lloyds to buy stock rather than property, relationship manager. Our relationships are based on and had loans from it for many, many years. It was trust and clear communication, but there was none of important that they had this strong relationship with that. A simple loan developed into 20 swaps, which led their bank, yet, since they fell into the trap of buying an to his loosing £5 million, and this once-proud business IRSA, incurring huge costs, the bank appears to have man has now lost his business, which has broken him. little interest in dealing with the matter satisfactorily. In He is a broken man, because of the unaccountable lack February, my constituent’s solicitor sent a letter of of trust in banks such as RBS. claim to Lloyds; it is now June and he is still waiting for a reply. The situation needs investigating further. Constituents Heather Wheeler: That is a salutary lesson The banks have written to me on this issue about three of the top have lost the trust of the country, and, having listened banks—NatWest, RBS and Lloyds TSB—so the situation to all the stories today, we now understand why. I feel is far-reaching and needs to be dealt with. These great compassion for my hon. Friend’s constituent. heavyweight banks are effectively taking advantage of The matter was not explained to my constituent, who small business owners’ lack of financial expertise, feels strongly that if the IRSA had been explained bombarding them with the idea that they must enter properly, he would have understood the true cost of into such agreements to get a loan. Indeed, this could be breaking the agreement, and instead would have opted one of the biggest financial scandals to come to light for a variable rate or approached an alternative lender. since PPI. The agreements need to be made more Where was the bank’s duty of care? transparent, so that people are fully aware that such It is not only a lack of clarity that makes these products have significant break costs and are viewed as agreements so concerning. For another constituent of separate from the loans that the individuals concerned mine, the complaint is who is selling these products. originally wanted to take out. Back in 2006, he wanted a loan to develop a garden I urge the Minister to take steps wherever possible to business. He approached his bank manager and was support small and medium-sized enterprises and to advised to take out an IRSA to guard against rising ensure that where there is widespread misconduct against interest rates to protect his business. His bank manger them, as in my constituency of South Derbyshire, admitted, however, that he did not fully understand appropriate action is taken to support them. I look them himself, so arranged for a specialist to come from forward to hearing her concluding remarks and hope NatWest to advise my constituent. that she will take my constituents’ cases on board. 1075 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1076

1.40 pm that—of three essentially similar complex derivative products, which, by their own admission, they struggled Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I congratulate, to understand and the risks of which were never explained. as everybody else has, my hon. Friend the Member for On many occasions my constituents asked whether they Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing this debate through could get out before the end of the term, as they the Backbench Business Committee and on the way in expected that they would need to sell property—an which he has led the campaign in this House and integral part of their business. They were advised to go outside. for a longer term, as Barclays Capital would probably Two of my constituents who have been affected by pay them to exit. Having borrowed the money and this issue have said that when they got involved in the being unable to pay it all back at short notice if the Bully-Banks campaign they took some comfort from bank decided to call in the loan, my constituents were the fact that many others are in the same position. As I presented with no options and felt as though they had have sat listening to the debate, what I have found most no choice but to enter into the swap agreement, involving striking is that whatever part of the country or countries a rate swap for £750,000 over a 10-year period, at a rate in the United Kingdom we come from, there has been of 5.67%. an alarming commonality in the message we have presented to the House. The product was finally sold to my constituents in It would be dishonest of me to say that I understand a trade call, although at no point were they told that a every aspect of these products or the conduct of the trade call had even commenced, and they certainly did banks. I have sat in constituents’ houses as they have not realise that it was legally binding. Understandably, poured out the details of what has happened to them, they envisaged that, at some point, they would sign a but that in itself has become an issue. If I, as a humble contract to agree to an interest rate swap, but because Back-Bench constituency MP, have struggled, why on they had already signed a customer agreement for private earth should they be put in that position, especially customers, the bank apparently had permission to sell when the people selling the products seem to have as the product to them in that way. Following the phone confused a picture? The scale of the problem is alarming. call, there was a faxed unofficial confirmation, which I think we have seen only the tip of the iceberg and that, stated that legal papers would follow, but they did not as this debate galvanises public opinion, we will hear arrive for two months. about many more cases. The worry, as we have heard, is that such cases are I want to reflect, as others have, on a constituency being replicated across the country. My constituents case. One business affected in my constituency is involved understandably feel aggrieved that they were sold a in refurbishing flats and letting properties out to students product that was completely inappropriate for their in the tourist and student town of Aberystwyth. My business, in that it restricts them from selling property, constituents secured a loan from the local bank, the despite that fact the flexibility to sell property within a agreement for which specified interest rate protection few years is a main requirement for their business. They for a minimum of £800,000. However, at no point was feel aggrieved because the arrangement ties them to a that term clarified—at least, not until after the money longer-term debt on which they cannot afford to make had been borrowed. My constituents described to me full capital payments, and because the risks were not how a Barclays Capital salesman was introduced to property explained. They also feel aggrieved at the them as a “colleague” by their relationship manager at enormous breakage costs and at the fact that no explanation the bank, with whom they had built up a trusted was offered of how those costs were calculated. The relationship. We have heard about such cases repeatedly. value of the swap is too high, and since capital payments My constituents already trusted their bank manager to began to be taken prematurely it has created severe cash do nothing detrimental to their business, but they did flow problems for the business. not realise, at the point of initiation, that they were getting involved in a sales process, and at no point was it I have been in touch with the Federation of Small presented to them as such. Businesses about this, although I did not need to do so, as it was already aware of the numbers of alarming cases elsewhere, many of which we have heard about in Mr Cox: The hon. Gentleman is reciting experiences the debate. My constituents inform me that, in the years that are exactly replicated by constituents of mine. following the sales of swaps, banks have been guilty of Indeed, more concerning is the fact that some of my compounding the problems of the SMEs that have constituents were invited to hotel receptions, for potentially them—alarmingly, in some cases particularly of those hundreds of businesses to attend, where they received a that have had the bravery to complain. That is acutely sales approach like that of a timeshare salesman. My worrying. constituents were never told that the salesmen were earning profits from what they were selling and they There are many further points that need consideration, were never given appropriate advice. Does he agree that not least the issue of redress. The most powerful message the whole flavour of what is coming out of this debate is that we can send out today is that the Financial Services such that the Minister must now tell the House what Authority should speedily produce its report into the prompt and immediate action and inquiry will be extent of the practices involved. At that point, I am sure undertaken into what is increasingly a very grave scandal? that the House will wish to take the matter further. I think it was the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Mr Williams: I completely agree with my hon. and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) who mentioned the need learned Friend: it is indeed a grave scandal. My constituents for urgency, especially in the light of the six-year time were not invited to hotels, but they had three meetings constraint. My constituents face the prospect of having in their home. They also had several phone calls and to take action by February next year. Theirs is a functioning were presented with the choice—if it could be called business, and this House is supposed to support functioning 1077 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1078 businesses in these dire economic times. There is a downsides; neither was any information provided on phrase in Welsh, chwarae teg, which means “fair play”, potential breakdown costs. It was also explained in and that is what is now needed. writing that “there would be no risk to borrowing costs trailing higher”. 1.47 pm The previous swap had been for 10 years; the new ones Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con): Thank you were for 20 years—far longer than the duration of the for calling me to speak in the debate, Mr Deputy loans at the time. The swap was signed up to, with the Speaker. I appreciate the opportunity as I did arrive companies knowing full well—or, at least, thinking they late. I have come directly from the Defamation Bill did—that there was a ceiling on the borrowing costs. Committee, but I hope that I shall not defame the banks In 2009, the companies were informed, when their too much as I talk about this scandal that they have loans were up for renewal, that their lending margin was been perpetrating. I shall test the Enoch Powell theory going to double. They complained that the bank was of public speaking today; if it is true, this is going to be reneging on a deal, but were told that there was nothing a blinder of a speech. formally agreed. The bank could, however, sell them I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for another swap to reduce borrowing costs until 2013. Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing the debate. The They now had no choice but to enter the new swap at a quality of all the contributions, raising constituency cost of about £200,000 a year. cases as I intend to do, has shown me that this scam, While they were making their complaint, the companies which has been taking place for a long time, is a massive discovered that the swap was not a relationship with the one of ginormous scale that requires firm action as bank they thought they were dealing with, as it had soon as possible. I also congratulate the Backbench been sold on in the financial markets. Other Members Business Committee, which has yet again come up have highlighted this. The companies took legal and trumps in calling a debate that our constituents would financial advice but, despite having a good case, were like to hear, and that probably would not have been wary of risking the extra costs of taking the bank to heard in normal circumstances under previous mandates. court. In fact, my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy I will try not to repeat the points that other Members is their last best hope, and I suspect that that is so in have made, but I want to give some details about a many other cases, too. couple of cases in my constituency. I also want to press the Minister on the matter and issue a call for action. George Eustice: One problem many businesses have is My hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands that when they decide they want to take legal action (Karen Bradley) gave the House a description of the against a bank, they often find that many of the law swaps. I was a small business man before I entered firms that might appear to be the natural ones to turn to politics, and I can understand how those businesses have effectively been bought off by the banks through were caught by this scam. The relationship that they things called permanent retainers and through the approved have with their bank manager—and perhaps with their panels. Some of the best litigators in the country are relationship manager, as we have heard—is all important, thus often barred from acting against the banks. or it certainly was until these products started to be sold. It was a relationship based on friendship and Chris Heaton-Harris: I did not know that, and I trust. It was understood that products were being bought thank my hon. Friend for raising it. and used, but it was always felt that independent advice was being offered and that the bank would put you Lloyds bank has denied any wrongdoing whatever, right all the time. That has been completely lost with the claiming that the margin reduction was not necessary sale of these interest rate swap agreements. Something for the duration of the swap, and it hides behind the really bad happened back in 2003-04 when all this small print that says, as we heard earlier, that any advice started to happen. given was not, in fact, “advice”. Two of my constituency cases are happy to be named and others are not. My constituency is full of vibrant Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): Does my small businesses. In one case, Mr Benyon has two hon. Friend agree that his constituency case is like that companies: Oastlodge Ltd and Hallway Estates Ltd. of many across the country in that the question of Oastlodge had been with Lloyds bank for over 35 years, duration is the problem? A very successful business in and Hallway for just over 10. In 2004, Oastlodge was my constituency was offered a loan of five years and a taking out a large loan and was advised to take out a swap of 10 years; the mismatch between the two time swap. This would have increased overall borrowing costs— periods is likely to cause a huge jump in costs as the the right questions were asked of the person trying loan runs out in a few months’ time, with five further to sell the product—so the company requested not to years of swap, which the company did not need, remaining enter. In 2005, Lloyds came back with an offer for a to match off the initial loan. swap where the bank would halve interest margins on all existing loans. The offer was in writing. A business Chris Heaton-Harris: My hon. Friend is right. My man confronted with having interest loan costs halved constituents are in exactly the same position. is likely to be interested in taking up the offer. In 2006, There is, at least, provision for my constituents to the company was sold a further swap, on the basis of break the swap, but doing so would cost them a cool reducing the overall cost of borrowing and saving even £1 million. They have complained to the financial services more money. ombudsman, asking for compensation and asking for In 2008, Oastlodge and Hallway were offered several the original swap margin to be reinstated at its 2006 more swaps, and one in particular was highlighted. All level or, alternatively, for the swap to be torn up so that the benefits were listed in great detail, but none of the they can keep their existing margin. They have been 1079 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1080

[Chris Heaton-Harris] to divulge either its name or that of the bank, because the business fears that that would prejudice its position advised that the 2008 swap was mis-sold and inappropriate in relation to the bank. for their business, and they are discussing the details of Anecdotal evidence seems to indicate that the business that with the financial services ombudsman. was persuaded and cajoled into taking an interest rate In 2008 Lloyds sold another of my constituents, swap product by high-pressure sales tactics. There was Phillip Derbyshire, an enhanced collar—or, as it was what could almost be described as a pincer movement described by my hon. Friend the Member for Wyre between the small businesses relationship manager and Forest (Mark Garnier), an enhanced noose. It has cost the capital arm of the bank, which clearly set out to him £1.275 million, about 75% of his pension pool. He persuade the business that converting a loan to an is 64 years old. Both the FSO and the Financial Services interest rate swap product was absolutely the right thing Authority are unable to assist him, and Lloyds claims to do. The relationship manager told the business that it that there has been no wrongdoing. My constituent was the best option, because interest rates would go in claims that the circumstances of sale were only one direction: up. “tantamount to a sting operation under duress”, Members have mentioned fixed rates. The business and I completely believe him. feels that the product was sold to it in a similar way to the way in which a capped-rate mortgage is sold. However, Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Does not the abuse when my constituents asked what would happen if of trust that my hon. Friend is describing give rise to interest rates fell, the question was not answered with a another fear—the fear that the FSA will roll over and proper explanation and a warning. The employees of talk about changing the rules while missing the critical the bank simply said that there was no prospect or issue of compensation for people who have suffered, possibility of a reduction in interest rates, given their which is what the House wants to see? historic low at that point. The capital arm of the bank pitched the product in Chris Heaton-Harris: I entirely concur with my hon. what I can only describe as a Del Boy-esque fashion—as Friend, and I shall end my speech by making the same if Del Boy was selling saucepans to a housewife at the point. market. The capital arm contacted the business and Lloyds repeatedly referred to the product that it was persuaded it that the product in question was fantastic selling to my constituent as “a protection”, both orally and was usually available only to far larger businesses, and in writing. The downsides were simply not explained. but that as this business was such a good customer of My constituent was told that if he sold his business or the bank it could have the same deal. The capital arm died, the product would be an asset. All that was then continually contacted the business—it did so almost independently witnessed, because he is quite a savvy daily—to explain that day’s special interest rate and to man. He was told by an independent banking consultant tell it the time was now or never to pick up that special that the product was totally inappropriate to his needs, deal. To compound the situation, while this was never and that it was beyond the level of his financial discussed, the business was under a lot of added pressure sophistication to understand it. He is now looking into and believed it needed to keep the bank sweet. It was the whether he can sue Lloyds. time of the onset of the credit crunch and the business Does the Minister agree that it is wrong for banks to feared the other accounts and facilities it had with the make loans contingent on the purchase of other financial bank would not be serviced if it did not take the bank’s products such as IRSAs? Where are we with this issue advice. now? What conclusion will be reached from the debate? We have seen the motion, and we have heard from many Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con): My hon. Friend eloquently Members in all parts of the House who want to see describes same situation as that suffered by hoteliers, forthright action by the Treasury and the FSA, and shopkeepers and restaurateurs in Fylde and Lytham compensation for their constituents. Can the FSA be St Annes. These are not naïve people, but they believed persuaded to move faster? As for compensation, there is what they were told by their bank relationship manager an absolute need for it. and they were misled. We must urgently address this This is a scandal and a scam. It is finished now, but issue. we need to ensure that it never happens again. Mr Jones: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are talking here about small businesses that do not have 1.57 pm experience of these banking products, and they should Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con): It is a pleasure never have been led down this route without very strong to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry warnings explaining what they were taking on. The (Chris Heaton-Harris), and I congratulate my hon. business in my constituency that I have mentioned feels Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on precisely that way, and the consequence of all this is securing what is, for many of our constituents, a vital that it is now paying double what it would have paid if it debate. had kept to the more traditional lending arrangements In the short time available to me, I want to explore it initially had with the bank. the methods used by one bank to sell an interest rate This business estimates that it has spent between swap product to a business in my constituency, explain £150,000 and £200,000 in extra fees and extra interest—on the disadvantage that that subsequently caused to the the friendly advice of its bank. As a direct result of the business, and discuss what more can be done to help interest swap loan, it has struggled to repay its loan as businesses that feel that such products have been mis-sold interest rates fell. The bank said there was nothing it to them. I have been asked by the business involved not could do to help. Eventually, after being contacted on a 1081 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1082 number of occasions, the bank finally allowed the business feel that they are not in a position to do that because to convert to interest-only payments, but that comes they feel that they will be prejudiced by that bank in with its own consequence, because the capital is not relation to other loans and borrowing facilities that they repaid, leaving a legacy that eventually has to be dealt hold with it. They find it difficult to move these things with. to other banks, because they may, for example, be in It can be argued that these are commercial business- negative equity with property because of the economic to-business relationships, and that any small business situation. should have taken further advice, and that would be my So I wish to ask the Economic Secretary to the usual view. However, often these businesses were put Treasury a number of questions. First, will she press the under great pressure by their bank, which was aggressively banks to give a clear and unambiguous commitment selling the product in question and advising its customer not to treat any complainant unfairly in other dealings to take it, and there was usually a wider business between a business and a bank? Secondly, what steps relationship as well, involving other banking facilities. will she take to persuade the banks to do the right thing There appears to me to be a clear conflict of interest, at this point and support those small businesses that therefore. There is also the question of how suitable have been caught out by these products that have been these products are for small businesses. inappropriately sold to them by the banks? Thirdly, will What action can businesses that find themselves in she write to the FSA to set out the concern of the this situation take? As with any dispute of this nature, House, to ask the FSA to expedite the work it is they can go to law, but as has been pointed out by many undertaking on this matter, to stress the importance of colleagues, the chances are that a business in this situation a thorough investigation with teeth and to ask it to look will not have the money needed up front to be able to at the criteria that the ombudsman can use, because take up a case against a bank, which is likely to be a they are narrow at the moment for small businesses and huge multinational organisation. Also, as my hon. Friend the level of compensation is very low? I fear that if we the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) do not do that at this point not only will the small rightly pointed out, there might be another conflict of businesses be disadvantaged, but we will also risk similar interests in that some of the lawyers who might take on mis-selling scandals occurring in the future if the banks such litigation cases will have professional relationships are not brought to account. with the bigger banks. That is also unhelpful. 2.7 pm George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, not least as I now Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): I have the opportunity to add my name to those of the congratulate the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) other Members supporting my hon. Friend the Member on the speech he just gave. We have heard some fine for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) in raising this important speeches from Members from across the Chamber, but I issue. My hon. Friend has also given me the opportunity wish to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Aberconwy to highlight the case of Adcocks of Watton, a venerable (Guto Bebb) for his speech, for which he definitely old business in my constituency which has suffered deserved the applause he received. This is one of those terribly and whose case has recently featured on the cross-party issues that shows that from time to time the BBC. Does he agree that whatever the whys and wherefores House of Commons can come together to try its best to and the legal findings on the small print in the contracts, send a strong message to the Government and the these wider cases are symptomatic of a deeper problem regulators to try to get some action, in particular from in our banking sector? The banks seem increasingly to the banks. have decided, in rural areas in particular, to make their My hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Toby money from charges and selling more glamorous derivative Perkins) and I met people from more than 50 small and products, at the expense of backing small businesses medium-sized enterprises a couple of weeks ago. We and supporting growth on the high street, which is what heard harrowing stories and felt that sense of injustice we really want our traditional banking sector to do. that so many hon. Members have expressed in their contributions. We heard about bankruptcies and the Mr Jones: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. job losses that can follow, and about the human cost He is absolutely right to say that these products were and the misery that have ensued. We are dealing with not suitable for the type of business that he mentioned. incredibly serious questions, and we deserve nothing As chair of the all-party group on town centres, I take a less than a swift and serious response from the Government great interest in town centres and high streets. At this and from the financial services authorities. difficult time for them, the type of business that he mentioned can do without this type of additional pressure. Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): I very much In the short time available to me, I wish to return to welcome the hon. Gentleman’s remarks and echo the the recourse that businesses have and talk a little about sentiments of many hon. Members. I just wish to say the ombudsman and the Financial Services Authority that there may be more Members, like me, who have route. Whether businesses take the ombudsman route, the been prevented from speaking in detail by the sub judice FSA route or the route of going to law, one of the biggest rule today and that concern about this issue may be problems small businesses face is that at the outset they even more widespread than this debate has revealed so have to divulge all the information about the particular far. case. They particularly have to divulge the information about the bank and a lot of information has to be Chris Leslie: That is a very good point, and, reading gathered from the bank. As we have heard from hon. between the lines, we can see exactly the strength of Members from across the Chamber, many small businesses feeling that the hon. Gentleman expresses. 1083 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1084

Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab): I do not In recent months, Opposition Members have done know who my hon. Friend met, but I wonder whether their best to raise these issues. In the Financial Services the stories he heard were like that of my constituent Public Bill Committee, we tabled amendments that Mr Les Wood. He borrowed £9,000 from HSBC and would have given small firms better access via the FSA has since repaid £133,000 to HSBC—a totally to the super-complaints power and stronger collective disproportionate sum. proceedings powers. The Financial Secretary, who is not here today—I think he is at a conference in Turkey— rejected the amendments, saying that he did not want to Chris Leslie: That story has been repeated time and comment directly on interest rate hedges issues as they again. For those of us who might have come across the were a “matter for the FSA”. That response was not problems in anecdotes related to us in our surgeries, substantive, and I hope that the Economic Secretary today’s debate has revealed that they were not one-off can rise to the occasion today and respond seriously to cases; there was a pattern. the heartfelt concerns that have been raised in the Let us remind ourselves of what the banks have been debate. doing. They saw an opportunity in new firms’ ambitious The Government rejected other amendments we tabled to succeed and to grow, and in firms in need of loans to to the Financial Services Bill on the need for a fiduciary invest in new plant and processes. The banks sought to duty of care for customers, both individuals and SMEs, attach complex hedging products to the loans, allegedly when they are taking out these products. The Chancellor giving the impression that that was a requirement of the has rejected Vickers’ advice—it appears that the banking loan—we have heard how many times businesses were reform Bill will have nothing to improve customer told it was part of the package deal—and that credit protection. Vickers, of course, highlighted that in the could not be obtained otherwise. Small firms were told ring-fenced retail arrangements we should be very careful that the products were just insurance policies: the upside about interest rate swaps, hedging and derivative products protections were emphasised, but the downside risks moving into what might be called the normal vanilla were hardly mentioned. Then, when the course of the nature of banking. That is something all hon. Members economy took a turn—we will not go into that today— might want to spend a little time considering when leading to interest rates plummeting over the past couple scrutinising the proposals set out in the White Paper of years, the firms were forced to pick up the punitive that the Treasury has just produced. costs of the downside risks of the hedges. The banks I met FSA representatives yesterday and we talked have profited significantly at the expense of small firms. about its supervisory investigation. I am told that it has Today we have heard revelation after revelation of been looking at a random sample of 50 or so cases in breathtaking abuse of the small firms that have been each of the banks. They have been listening to the tapes caught out—firms up and down the country, from chip of some of the sales calls that took place and looking shops to child care centres, builders to bed and breakfasts. back at them. I am told that its target is to announce I pay tribute to The Daily Telegraph business section, some action by the end of this month, which I sincerely which has pursued this issue tenaciously. It highlighted hope it will do. Having listened to the debate and heard the case of Adcock and Sons, a Norfolk electrical the strength of feeling on these questions, it occurs to retailer that took out an interest rate swap on a £970,000 me that any small businesses that have not yet complained loan. The product, known as an asymmetric leverage or raised these issues with the FSA must do so as soon collar, cost the business £2 for every £1 of benefit it as possible. The FSA’s hotline number is 0845 606 1234. offered. As The Daily Telegraph reported, what really I hope that those firms will ring and let the FSA know, rubbed salt into the wound was that the arrangement because it is our best hope at this juncture. resulted in Barclays Capital profiting by £100,000. I am looking for four particular assurances from the This is not just a story of product asymmetry; it has Minister today at the very least. First, she and the many other facets. For example, as we have heard today, regulators need to extract from the banks an assurance agreements are too often not made in parallel with the that no customer who complains will be treated adversely line of credit, but extend way beyond the end of the because of the complaint. There is potential for a sense loan. Guardian Care Homes has been mentioned: it of victimisation, and we need absolutely to get out of had two swaps whose term exceeded the loan by 10 and that space. Secondly, we should have a moratorium on 15 years respectively—totally ridiculous. We have also foreclosures while the complaints of the customer concerned heard about the punitive costs of servicing the swaps, are being considered and their case is under review, and the back-breaking breakage fees—sometimes 50% because firms are going under and going into liquidation of the total loan cost, averaging, we are told, about and bankruptcy every single day. We have to ensure that £1 million just to reverse out of the agreements. some backstop is put on the process. Questions have been asked today about the competence Thirdly, we need agreement by the banks that customers of those selling these specialist products and the who were sold hedges for longer than the term of the commissions that skewed their judgment. Banks were, loan should have the right to cancel and move out of at best, taking advantage of what we in the trade know the breakage fee arrangement. Those are the minimum as “information asymmetry”—in other words, unsuspecting criteria we need. Also, banks should extend the statute customers and cunning banks—but at worst their behaviour of limitations, the sense that complaints have to be was extortionate. Court action to try to obtain a remedy investigated within a particular time scale. The banks has not been easy: we have heard about gagging clauses should show more grace in these circumstances. in out-of-court settlements, where they have been made. Small businesses are the lifeblood of the British economy. Those problems are compounded by the fact that the They account for 48% of private sector turnover, employ clock is ticking on people’s right to complain and 14 million people, have a turnover of £1.5 trillion, and pursue redress. of course they make up 99% of UK enterprises. They 1085 Interest Rate Swap Products21 JUNE 2012 Interest Rate Swap Products 1086 deserve to be treated better by our banks and to be that really brings home the seriousness with which we supported more effectively by the Government. They need to take the subject and, of course, the serious certainly deserve the full backing of both sides of the consequences that businesses are facing. House for an urgent solution to this serious problem. Since the issue first came to light, the Government have been working closely with the FSA and have 2.17 pm assisted it wherever possible. The authority, as some Members will know, began its initial survey of the issue The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe back in March, and that initial work pointed to concerns, Smith): We have had a very fine debate this afternoon certainly about the suitability of some of these products and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for for SMEs, and about some of the sales practices involved. Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) on securing it and moving the motion. He will be pleased to learn that I will leave him There was evidence in some cases of over-hedging—of a few minutes at the end so that he can complete the job. the products lasting longer than the duration of the My hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who is in loan they were protecting, to which hon. Members have Istanbul on Government business, is disappointed to referred in examples; and in some cases there seemed to miss the debate, but I shall endeavour to do the best job be incentives for staff to sell more of the more complex I can in his stead. products. I have listened to and considered carefully what hon. As a result, the FSA agreed to carry out a more Members have said today and will try to respond to as in-depth review into alleged mis-selling. That is now many Back-Bench points as possible. I suggest that it is well under way, and I shall make the House aware of not really a day for a great political answer. Instead, I what I think is a positive point: the FSA will be able to want to talk about some of the detail of what is happening report its findings at the end of this month—at the end in this instance. To name but a few of the contributions of June. I wholeheartedly welcome the review, and the that have been made, we heard a passionate contribution Government are awaiting its conclusions, but I think from the hon. Member for Wolverhampton North East that hon. Members will welcome those results coming (Emma Reynolds) and we heard from my hon. Friend forth at the end of June—perhaps earlier than some had the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley), expected, given their comments today. who explained the issue in terms of tea and strawberries—I In taking forward the review, the FSA has gathered wondered whether to intervene to ask her what would further information from banks and carried out more happen if someone liked tea and strawberries together, than 100 interviews with small businesses in order to but today is a day for much more serious material. establish for its findings the robust fact base that one My hon. Friends the Members for Finchley and would expect. It does require detailed analysis, and I Golders Green (Mike Freer), for South Derbyshire will set out in a little more detail the issues that the (Heather Wheeler) and for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) FSA’s review is likely to cover. really underlined one of the main points. Through no Under the banking conduct of business sourcebook fault of their own very fine brains, even they found rules, banks simply cannot sell products that are not some of these issues hard to comprehend in their appropriate for a customer without warning them, so constituency surgeries. I think that that is because of the FSA, in addition to exploring further the questions some of the complexity of the products available. Perhaps on over-hedging and on sales incentives which its initial my hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands work revealed, is seeking to establish whether the sales could explain it to them with the aid of tea to help it all of those products were appropriate for small businesses, go down well. as they might not have understood how they would The House needs to be reassured that the Government operate. I acknowledge the point, made by some hon. have taken this issue extremely seriously. The FSA, as Members today, that we need to recognise, in their the independent regulator, is responsible for determining words, that some business customers are not the appropriate regulatory response, but today I can sophisticated—and that is absolutely right. If such a update the House on what the FSA is doing and when it situation has occurred, it is a concern. will be doing it by, and I will respond to a few further The Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 already points that have been made today. requires the FSA to have regard to the different degrees To return to the products, however, I should note that of risk in different investment, and to the differing these interest rate products are designed to reduce a degree of experience and expertise that consumers have. business’s vulnerability—in theory—to interest rate We are adding to that in the Financial Services Bill, and fluctuations, but they can be very complex products, that is very important, as hon. Members have said ranging from relatively simple interest rate caps to today. interest rate swaps and, then, to both simple and structured The FSA’s review is also going to establish a clear collars. The bulk of those products were sold, alongside understanding of banks’ sales practices, including whether loans, to businesses between 2005 and 2008, the trouble they were advised sales or non-advised sales, and whether being that since then interest rates have been very much the downside risks were clearly communicated orally as lower and businesses that took out such products have well as on paper. found themselves paying much higher rates than the The review will also look at break costs, which several base rate. A growing number of small and medium-sized businesses suggest were not disclosed to them when enterprises have come forward to claim that they have they purchased the product, and it will also attempt to been mis-sold such products. establish whether the banks told customers explicitly or Another real telling point from today’s debate was otherwise that the hedging product was a requirement the number of times that hon. Members repeated the of the loan, an issue that I know many hon. Members call for anonymity on behalf of their constituents, and have raised today. 1087 Interest Rate Swap Products 21 JUNE 2012 1088

[Miss Chloe Smith] 2.27 pm Guto Bebb: I thank the Minister for her update on the In answer to some of the key points that have been position of the FSA, which has moved significantly made today, the desire for banks not to treat adversely from its initial responses to my communications early or to punish those who make complaints has come up this year; I respect the fact that it is moving in the right repeatedly, and it is one of the hard-hitting points that direction. However, it should be aware that Members will stay in the mind from today’s debate. I share hon. on both sides will be looking carefully at its comments Members’ serious concerns about that; banks should at the end of the month. not be able to treat customers unfairly in that way. The examples that hon. Members have been giving do not I also concur with the comments of the shadow seem consistent with the principle of treating customers Minister, who stated that the House can, at times, fairly. The Government want to be assured that those perform much better than it does at PMQs. This debate making complaints will not be punished as a consequence. has been extremely positive. What has really pleased me When the FSA produces its report, I am sure that we is that contributions came from Members representing will be able to go into more detail with the evidence in five political parties. There have been 14 excellent speeches front of us. and numerous contributions from Back Benchers stating that the issue is a concern across the country. Damian Collins: If the FSA report finds that the The issue has lain dormant for too long, and there is products may have been mis-sold, will there at least be a real concern about the attitude of the banks towards the chance for businesses to break out of the agreements the businesses. Even today, Members have said that or for there to be a moratorium on payments while they cannot name individual businesses because those individual compensation claims are analysed? businesses are scared of the banks’ taking action against them. That is a real concern. We need to move forward Miss Smith: I hear that point, which has been made a and to have transparency and openness. We need to number of times today. It is not my place to pre-empt identify the scale of the problem and the FSA needs to the findings, not least because the FSA is an independent take a decision showing that as a regulator it has teeth regulator and because the results and evidence have not and it will have an effect on the situation. I commend yet come together. my motion to the House. However, I assure the House that not only will my Question put and agreed to. hon. Friend the Financial Secretary be listening very Resolved, carefully to that request, but the FSA already has a That this House has considered the matter of the mis-selling of powerful toolkit to deal effectively with any potential interest rate swap products to small and medium-sized businesses; mis-selling. That can include powers to establish industry- notes the work undertaken by the Financial Services Authority in wide or single-firm redress schemes, which comes from this respect; and calls for a prompt resolution of the matter. the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000; to refer Business without Debate the banks to enforcement; to use supervisory measures; and to obtain redress for consumers through the use of DRAFT COMMUNICATIONS DATA BILL restitution powers. (JOINT COMMITTEE) I want to leave enough time for my hon. Friend the Resolved, Member for Aberconwy to return to this debate. I come That this House concurs with the Lords Message of 28 May, back to the point about the SMEs that have been that it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons affected; that is the powerful point that has come out be appointed to consider and report on any draft Communications today. Hon. Members have spoken deeply about the Data Bill presented to both Houses. difficulties faced by small businesses in their constituencies. Ordered, The Government are helping small businesses in difficulty That a Select Committee of six Members be appointed to join in other ways: there are HMRC’s “time to pay” with the Committee appointed by the Lords to consider the draft arrangements and advice and information through the Communications Data Bill. That the Committee should report by Business Link website and other far larger points 30 November 2012. throughout the economy. That the Committee shall have power— I echo the words of the shadow Minister, the hon. (i) to send for persons, papers and records; Member for Wolverhampton North East (Emma (ii) to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House; Reynolds). I encourage any business that believes it was (iii) to report from time to time; mis-sold one of the products to contact the FSA if it (iv) to appoint specialist advisers; has not already done so, and to give as much information (v) to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom; as possible about its case. The report is coming back at and the end of June, so I advise such businesses to be swift. That Mr Nicholas Brown, Michael Ellis, Dr Julian Huppert, Stephen Mosley, Craig Whittaker and David Wright be members That will help the FSA to continue to develop its of the Committee.—(Stephen Crabb.) understanding. The Government are fully aware of the issue. I am ADJOURNMENT grateful to hon. Members present for putting flesh on Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Order, the bones. I hope that I have provided the House with 13 June), That this House do now adjourn.—(Stephen some reassurance on what the FSA is doing, the range Crabb.) of the FSA’s powers and the closeness with which the Question agreed to. Government have worked with the FSA. We must allow the review to run its course, but we should all look 2.29 pm forward to its findings. House adjourned. 61WS Written Ministerial Statements21 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 62WS Written Ministerial TREASURY Statements Charitable Giving

Thursday 21 June 2012 The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith): The Government have today introduced the Small Charitable Donations Bill into Parliament. This will enable charities to claim gift aid-style payments on the small cash donations that they receive. Charities BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS and community amateur sports clubs (CASCs) can find it difficult to claim gift aid on donations collected in certain circumstances, for example bucket collections, where donors may be reluctant to stop and fill out gift Employment Law aid declarations. This means that charities are currently missing out on potential income. This new scheme will allow charities and CASCs to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, claim top-up payments of 25p for every £1 collected on Innovation and Skills (Norman Lamb): Today, as part of small cash donations of £20 or less, up to a total of their ongoing review of employment law, the Government £5,000 of donations per year. The scheme is designed to have launched a consultation on changes to the rules on allow top-up payments to charities on the donations for collective redundancy. In the consultation we are seeking which they cannot easily get a gift aid declaration. It views on changes to both the legislative framework and will supplement the main gift aid scheme, which provides the guidance on offer in order to create a regime that over £1 billion a year in additional income for the supports the labour market in Great Britain and promotes charitable sector. good quality consultation. In developing the scheme, the Government have taken Evidence suggests that the current rules are too rigid steps to ensure that it operates as fairly as possible, and hamper employers’ ability to restructure effectively whilst keeping overall costs of the scheme affordable whilst drawing the focus of consultation toward the and also protecting against fraud. The scheme has been process and away from the most important issues, such designed in order to make it fair and generous, and as ways to mitigate the impact of the redundancies. The straightforward for charities to claim the top-up payments. current minimum consultation period for large-scale HM Revenue and Customs will be issuing guidance for redundancies is also much longer than most other EU charities ahead of the scheme commencing. countries. We want businesses to be able to react nimbly to changes in market conditions and to be confident about creating new employment opportunities. ECOFIN We also want employers to consult their work force effectively over the big issues, including restructuring and redundancy. We do not want to create an uncaring, The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): hire and fire culture; instead our aim is to promote A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council good-quality consultation processes between employers will be held in Luxembourg on 22 June 2012. The and employees to ensure that the right decision is reached following items are on the agenda to be discussed: based on a full consideration of all relevant facts. Recovery and Resolution of Credit Institutions and Investment This consultation looks at how we can revitalise the Firms Directive process. We propose to reduce the 90-day minimum The Commission will present its new proposals for a period before very large numbers of redundancies can directive, following which the Council may then have a take effect to either 45 or 30 days, alongside production preliminary exchange of views on the proposal. The of a new code of practice. directive will require member states to ensure that their As well as these important proposals for change, national supervisory and resolution authorities have a there are some elements that we propose to leave as they set of common tools and powers which will enable them are, most notably the protective award. The protective to avert, and where necessary manage, the failure of a award currently stands at a maximum of 90 days’ pay financial institution. The proposal seeks to prevent the for each employee affected by a failure to consult and is systemic damage caused by the disorderly failure of paid by the employer. As the level of the award is linked such institutions, limiting public sector exposure and to the employer’s attempts to comply (and not to the preventing wider economic damage. length of the consultation period) we believe that this is Contribution to the European Council Meeting on 28-29 June right to keep this proportionate and dissuasive penalty. 2012, European Semester The consultation will close (after 13 weeks) on The Council will be asked to approve the fiscal and 19 September 2012. During the consultation period we economic elements of the country specific recommendations will seek views from a range of interested parties. Following (CSRs) for the 27 member states and the Euro area. For consideration of the responses to the consultation, we the UK, as happened last year, the UK has received will publish a Government response, setting out what CSRs in the areas of public finances; housing; workless we intend to take forward. households and access to finance, with an additional Copies of the consultation document have been placed recommendation on infrastructure. The recommendations in the Libraries of both Houses. are in line with domestic reform priorities and messages 63WS Written Ministerial Statements21 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 64WS given to the UK by the IMF and the OECD. For the We will strongly defend the abatement and oppose new UK, the recommendations are non-binding and there EU taxes to fund the EU budget. The maximum acceptable are no sanctions for non-compliance. increase in spending in the next MFF is a real terms Implementation of the Stability and Growth Pact freeze in payments on current levels of actual spend. The Council will be asked to adopt the Council decision abrogating the excessive deficit procedures for Statutory Residence Test and Reforms to Ordinary Germany and Bulgaria. The Council will also be invited Residence to take a decision to lift the suspension of the commitments from the cohesion fund for Hungary. The latter decision The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David will be based on a proposal from the Commission Gauke): In June 2011, the Government consulted on concerning the assessment of effective actions taken by introducing a statutory residence test and reforming the Hungary in order to bring the situation of an excessive concept of ordinary residence. Government deficit to an end. The UK agrees with the On 6 December 2012, the Government announced Commission assessment that the necessary progress has that legislation would take effect from April 2013, rather been made in both cases and will support the proposed than April 2012 in order to give the time to consider the decisions. detailed issues raised in consultation. Convergence Report from the Commission and the ECB The Government are today publishing their response The Commission and the ECB will provide an update to the 2011 consultation together with draft legislation on their assessment of the progress made by Bulgaria, to be included in Finance Bill 2013. This sets out the the Czech Republic, Latvia, Lithuania, Hungary, Poland, changes that will be made to the statutory residence test Romania and Sweden in fulfilling their obligations regarding following consultation and confirms that ordinary residence the achievement of economic and monetary union. will be abolished as announced at Budget 2012. It also There are no policy implications for the UK. contains further consultation questions on which the Follow up to the G20 Summit (Mexico, 18-19 June 2012) Government invite comments. The document is available on the HM Treasury website at: The Commission will provide a read-out of the G20 http: www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/consult_statutory_ summit in Los Cabos that occurred on 18 and 19 June. residence_test.htm Financial Transactions Tax The Government remain committed to their timetable The presidency will update the Ministers on their of introducing the statutory definition of tax residence assessment of discussions so far on the proposals for a and reforms to the concept of ordinary residence in financial transactions tax. The Council will be invited Finance Bill 2013. to discuss orientations for future work on this dossier. The Chancellor has made clear on a number of occasions that the UK does not support the Commission’s proposal ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE for an FTT. As it stands, the proposal will have significant negative impacts on jobs and growth across the EU. To Energy Council avoid a damaging relocation of financial trading, FTTs would need to apply in all financial centres, and not just the EU. The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry): I represented the United Energy Taxation Directive Kingdom at the EU Energy Council in Luxembourg on The presidency will update Ministers on progress on 15 June 2012. this directive and will ask the Council to discuss orientations The Commission and presidency gave progress reports for future work. The UK opposes several elements of on negotiations of the proposal for a regulation on the revision proposal and supports the approach of the guidelines for trans-European energy infrastructure and current energy taxation directive where EU minimum on the proposal for a regulation on safety of offshore rates are established but it is then for member states to oil and gas. A number of member states spoke about determine the structure of their national taxes. the need for infrastructure in order to integrate renewables ECOFIN Breakfast in the internal energy market. The Commission noted that the future of renewable energy would depend on Eurogroup will meet on 21 June. Ministers will be the construction of cross-border infrastructure. On the debriefed on the Eurogroup discussions before the formal regulation on the safety of offshore oil and gas, the ECOFIN starts on the 22nd. Ministers are likely to Commission acknowledged the high safety standards discuss the current economic situation, the most recent applied by the UK and Norway in the North sea and trends on sovereign debt markets and proposals to signalled that it could be flexible on the legal form of strength the single currency. the proposal. I welcomed this flexibility, with the support ECOFIN Lunch of several other member states. The multiannual financial framework will be discussed Conclusions on the “2050 Energy Roadmap” were based on a presidency issues note negotiations on the tabled as presidency conclusions, following late amendments MFF have progressed under the Danish presidency, by one member state. The presidency conclusions were which is working to present a “negotiating box” at the supported by 26 member states. June European Council setting out the options member The Commission presented their recently published states have discussed. There remain a number of options communication “Renewable energy: a major player in in the negotiating box which are unacceptable to the the European energy market”. I welcomed the UK, such as a change to our abatement and the communication and noted that it should be seen in the introduction of new EU taxes to fund the EU budget. context of the energy road map and the completion of 65WS Written Ministerial Statements21 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 66WS the internal energy market, whilst emphasising that roles and responsibilities of Government, the farming sectoral or technological targets should be treated with industry, the veterinary profession and other stakeholders, caution. and will advise on funding and budgetary issues. The The presidency reported on the first reading agreement group will advise on compliance with EU legal requirements with the European Parliament on the energy efficiency and on the development of the UK’s EU-funded eradication directive. I and several other member states congratulated plan. It will provide advice on the full range of issues the presidency on concluding negotiations of a complex relating to bovine TB at the request of the AHWBE or dossier. The presidency informed the Council that proposals Ministers. to amend an existing regulation and agreement on an energy efficiency labelling programme would be presented FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE to the Council. The Commission reported on the progress of nuclear European Court of Justice (Appointment of New Judges “stress tests” and outlined the next steps on the review and Advocates-General) of the nuclear safety directive. The Commission updated the Council on a number of international energy-related items, including EU-OPEC, The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington): I would the EU-China high-level meeting on energy, EU-Russia like to update the House on progress made with regards and the southern corridor. to the partial renewal of the European Court of Justice’s judiciary this October. Finally, Cyprus outlined priorities for its presidency, principally taking forward the draft proposals on I am pleased to announce that Mr Christopher Vajda infrastructure and safety of offshore oil and gas, and QC was appointed as the new UK judge to the European communications on renewable energy and the internal Court of Justice. Mr Vajda will take up his new position energy market. in October this year, for an initial term of six years. Mr Vajda was nominated by the UK following an open domestic recruitment process in which an expert selection and interview panel comprising of lay, judicial ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS and legal members recommended his candidacy to Ministers. Mr Vajda has extensive knowledge of both New Bovine TB Eradication Advisory Group European and domestic law, and the corresponding for England European and domestic legal systems, having practised as a barrister for the past 30 years, appearing before both UK and European Courts on numerous occasions. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, He has been a QC since 1997. Mr Vajda has also sat as a Food and Rural Affairs (Mr James Paice): Following the recorder within the Crown Court for the past eight review of the Bovine TB Eradication Group for England years. I am sure hon. Members will join me in congratulating (TBEG), I am pleased to announce that DEFRA will Mr Vajda on his appointment. We are confident that he be establishing a new Bovine TB Eradication Advisory will make a significant contribution to the workings of Group for England (TBEAG). the Court during his term. TBEG was set up in November 2008 to provide The nominations put forward by a number of other advice to Government on tackling bovine TB which member states have also been approved by the UK, all continues to be one of the most pressing animal health of which have been scrutinised by the independent issues in England. It is a devastating disease, leading to panel established under article 255 of the treaty on the the slaughter of over 26,000 cattle last year and costing functioning of the European Union: the taxpayer about £100 million a year in England Eleven renewals of sitting judges at the European alone. Court of Justice: I would like to thank the members of TBEG, whose Alexander Arabadjiev (Bulgaria) valuable work will be continued by the new group. Jiri Malenovský (Czech Republic) TBEAG’s membership will be broadened to include Thomas Von Danwitz (Germany) additional areas of scientific expertise and conservation Jean-Claude Bonichot (France) knowledge as well as a wider range of farming experience. George Arestis (Cyprus) The new advisory group will bring together the farming Egils Levits (Latvia) industry, veterinary profession, Government and other Egidijus Jarašiunas (Lithuania) stakeholders to provide expert advice on how we can Alexandra Prechal (Netherlands) best work together to tackle this terrible disease. Maria Berger (Austria) TBEAG will operate as a sub-group of the Animal Gustav Fernlund (Sweden) Health and Welfare Board for England (AHWBE). Paolo Mengozzi (Italy) TBEAG will be chaired by John Cross, current chairman One nomination for a new judge: of the English Beef and Lamb Sector Body (EBLEX); a José Luís Da Cruz Vilaça (Portugal) former chair of the animal health and welfare committee Two nominations for the renewal of an Advocate- of the National Farmers Union and farmer of a mixed General: livestock and arable enterprise in Norfolk. Antonio Tizzano (Italy) The group will help to develop a long-term strategy Yves Bot (France) to stop the spread of bovine TB and move towards its eradication. It will consider a comprehensive and evidence- Two nominations for new Advocates-General: based package of measures, making best use of all the Melchior Wathelet (Belgium) available tools. TBEAG will also consider the respective Nils Wahl (Sweden) 67WS Written Ministerial Statements21 JUNE 2012 Written Ministerial Statements 68WS

Britain’s Diplomatic Network (Latin America staff in more than 20 countries and we will have opened and the Caribbean) up to 11 new British embassies and eight new consulates or trade offices. I will keep the House informed of any further developments. The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague): The Government are committed to strengthening and reinvigorating Britain’s diplomatic network overseas. On 11 May 2011, I announced plans to open six new WORK AND PENSIONS embassies and up to seven new consulates-general and to increase our diplomatic representation in more than 20 countries worldwide. Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer On 2 February 2012, I announced additional plans to Affairs Council (Agenda) open an embassy in Liberia, and on 15 May 2012 I announced plans to open an embassy in Laos and a British interests office in Burma in Naypyitaw. The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions Today, I can announce further steps to strengthen (Chris Grayling): The Employment, Social Policy, Health British diplomacy in Latin America and the Caribbean: and Consumer Affairs Council will be held today, The Foreign and Commonwealth Office will now 21 June 2012 in Luxembourg. I will represent the United reopen the British embassy in Paraguay which was Kingdom. closed in 2005, and we will establish British diplomatic The main discussion will be a policy debate on the representation in Haiti for the first time since 1966. This Europe 2020 strategy: contribution to the European builds on our decision to reopen the British embassy in Council (28 and 29 June 2012)—European semester. I El Salvador which was closed in 2003 and the new will intervene to state that Council recommendations British consulate in the Brazilian city of Recife. It are the most important contribution that the Employment amounts to a considerable diplomatic advance in Latin and Social Policy Council (EPSCO) can make to the America and the reversal of the previous Government’s European Council on structural reforms for growth. I policy of closing posts in the region. will further state that the Commission should work Paraguay is the country with the largest economy in more with member states to develop recommendations the world that does not have resident British diplomatic which are still ambitious and challenging but take representation and was the fastest growing economy in into account the national context so that they are also south America in 2010. This new embassy will further credible and deliverable. strengthen British diplomatic engagement in the region. There will be progress reports on four topics: legislative It will help to unlock commercial opportunities for initiatives for posting of workers, the European globalisation British companies in this significant market. And it will adjustment fund (2014-20), minimum health and safety allow us to work closely with Paraguay on regional requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the issues such as counter-narcotics and organised crime. risks arising from physical agents (electromagnetic fields) The new British embassy in Haiti will report to our and the principle of equal treatment of persons irrespective ambassador in the Dominican Republic. It will place us of religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation. in a stronger position to support our objectives in Haiti In addition, Ministers will consider two sets of Council and the region. The UK is a major contributor both to conclusions, covering responding to the demographic reconstruction and development in Haiti through challenges through enhanced participation in labour multilateral agencies. We are also one of the major market and society by all, and gender equality and the financial contributors to the United Nations Stabilization environment; enhanced decision-making, qualifications Mission in Haiti (MINUSTAH), the UN peacekeeping and competitiveness in the field of climate change mitigation operation. It is in Britain’s interest as a P5 member of policy in the EU. the UN Security Council to play a more active role in The presidency will seek the support of the Council guaranteeing stability and creating the conditions for for a partial general approach on the programme for growth and prosperity. social change and innovation (PSCI). Ministers will The strength of our overseas network is a signal to also be invited to endorse the main messages from the the world of our engagement and commitment to Social Protection Committee’s report on pensions’adequacy. international peace and security. And our posts themselves Under any other business, the Commission will provide are the essential infrastructure of our country’s international information on national Roma integration strategies influence and of our economic recovery. They provide and the ratification and implementation of the UN an early warning system for threats to peace and security convention on the rights of people with disabilities and and assist British nationals in time of crisis. They support the presidency will provide information on the conferences our economy and help British businesses, and they held during the Danish presidency. The Commission promote our values across the world. and presidency will report on the G20 meeting of Labour The strengthening of our global diplomatic network and Employment Ministers, and finally, the Cypriot will therefore remain a central objective of the Government. delegation will outline the work programme of their On current plans by 2015 we will have deployed 300 extra forthcoming presidency. 1083W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1084W

all-terrain tracked vehicles have been withdrawn from Written Answers to frontline use by the Royal Marines. [111949]

Questions Peter Luff: The Viking protected all-terrain vehicle was deployed successfully on Operation Herrick in Afghanistan. Viking was gradually withdrawn from Thursday 21 June 2012 frontline use and replaced by the Warthog vehicle which was designed specifically for use in Afghanistan. Subsequent removal of the upgrades fitted for Op SCOTLAND Herrick and close inspection of the vehicles identified that, as a result of the demanding deployment in Regulation Afghanistan, which required payloads in excess of the original design parameters, the vehicles have experienced accelerated mechanical fatigue compromising the structural Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for integrity and safe operation of the vehicle. Scotland how many regulations his Department has repealed between 1 February and 31 May 2012; and if At present, they cannot be operated in a manner he will estimate the potential savings to those affected in which complies with the Department’s legislative safety each case. [112987] obligations and have been withdrawn from use by the Royal Marines until such a time as the vehicles have David Mundell: The Scotland Office has not repealed been regenerated. any regulations between 1 February and 31 May 2012. Armed Forces: Housing

WALES Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many RAF engineers are currently temporarily Regulation housed at hotels near Marshalls of Cambridge; and what the cost of all such accommodation is. [112315] Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales how many regulations her Department has Peter Luff: As at 15 June 2012, there were two RAF repealed between 1 February and 31 May 2012; and if engineers in hotel accommodation temporarily at a cost she will estimate the potential savings to those affected of £90 per person per night. in each case. [112984]

Mrs Gillan: The Wales Office did not repeal any Chemring Group regulations between 1 February and 31 May 2012. Jessica Lee: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to his contribution of 14 May 2012, Official Report, column 275, on Defence Budget and DEFENCE Transformation, what the total cost overrun is incurred AgustaWestland to date by The Chemring Group on contracts with his Department. [112821] Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he first became aware of AgustaWestland’s Peter Luff: There have been no cost overruns incurred plan to move production of the Sea King Integrated by the Chemring Group on current contracts with the Operational Support contract and the Lynx In-Service Ministry of Defence. Support Agreement contract from Vector Aerospace to the AgustaWestland plant in Yeovil. [112781] Defence Equipment: Scotland

Peter Luff [holding answer 19 June 2012]: Defence Ministers were first notified of AgustaWestland’s intent Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for not to renew Vector Aerospace’s sub-contracts for support Defence how many (a) aircraft towing tractors, (b) of Lynx and Sea King helicopters in November 2011. aircraft lighting trucks, (c) air charging equipment and (d) air compressors of each type are permanently Amphibious Vehicles based at each location in Scotland. [112616]

Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for Peter Luff: The information requested is shown in the Defence for what reasons the BvS Viking armoured following table:

Equipment type Number Location

Aircraft Towing Tractors Medium Aircraft Tow Tractors 24 RAF Lossiemouth x 15 RAF Leuchars x 7 RNAS Gannet x 2 Large Aircraft Tow Tractors 2 RAF Lossiemouth x 1 1085W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1086W

Equipment type Number Location

RAF Leuchars x 1

Aircraft Lighting Trucks HY-LITE MK2 Mobile Floodlights 4 RAF Lossiemouth x 2 RAF Leuchars x 1 RNAS Gannet x 1

Air Charging Equipment Four Cylinder Breathing Air Charging Trolley MK3 5 RAF Lossiemouth x 3 RAF Leuchars x 1 RNAS Gannet x 1

Air Compressors General Purpose Air Compressor 15 RAF Lossiemouth x 7 RAF Leuchars x 7 RNAS Gannet x 1 Lightweight Tactical Air Compressor 4 RAF Lossiemouth x 4

For the purpose of answering this question equipment Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for has been defined as that used in support of aircraft Defence what proportion of contracts issued by his operations. This equipment is managed to meet operational Department were awarded to small and medium-sized needs and can be moved for operational purposes should enterprises in 2011-12; and what proportion this represented the need arise. The UK Defence footprint is organised, of the monetary value of contracts awarded by his resourced and managed on a national basis to meet Department in 2011-12. [111923] operational needs. Peter Luff: During the financial year 2011-12, Defence: Cryptography approximately 41% of new contracts were awarded to small and medium-sized enterprises. This represented Alison Seabeck: To ask the Secretary of State for approximately 13% of the value of all new contracts Defence what estimate he has made of the cost of the placed in the year. delivery of the Extended Assessment Phase for Cipher. [109517] Hercules Aircraft Peter Luff: The currently approved total cost of completing the Extended Assessment Phase for CIPHER Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence is £44 million. how many Hercules transport aeroplanes are currently at Marshalls of Cambridge. [112314] Defence: Procurement Peter Luff: There are currently eight Hercules aircraft John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for at Marshalls of Cambridge. Defence pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 22 February 2012, Official Report, column 77WS, on Military Aircraft the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, what recent assessment he has made of the proportion of the Royal Navy’s budget Mr Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence that will be used to fund the procurement of (a) versatile how many (a) C130-Js and (b) C130-Ks remain in the Type 26 frigates and (b) successor submarines; and RAF fleet; and how many such aeroplanes are (i) on how many vessels he expects to be procured in each operation, (ii) in hangars at RAF Brize Norton and case. [R] [109632] (iii) elsewhere. [112313] Peter Luff: Procurement of new equipment projects, including the Type 26 frigate and the successor deterrent, Peter Luff: The information is provided in the following is funded from the equipment procurement plan, which table and is correct as of 15 June 2012: is held and managed centrally. As such, none of Navy Command’s budget will be used to fund those projects. Hercules C130J Hercules CI30K The Ministry of Defence’s (MOD) current planning In-service fleet 24 8 assumption is for the construction of 13 Type 26 Global Enduring 51 Combat Ships (GCS). The Type 26 GCS programme is Operations currently in its assessment phase, with the results of this In hangars at 21 phase expected by the middle of this decade. RAF Brize Norton1 The Strategic Defence and Security Review included Elsewhere 17 6 a detailed review of the successor deterrent programme 1 The number of aircraft in a hangar at RAF Brize Norton will and announced a deferral of the Main Gate approval change on a regular basis and depend on the number of aircraft point to 2016, at which point a decision will be made on requiring maintenance, the extent of the maintenance or the whether three or four boats will be built. preparation required for a specific task. 1087W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1088W

Shipping the Intergovernmental Agreement that allows RTE channels to be received in Northern Ireland by homes Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for with Freeview, live sporting events covered by RTE Defence which merchant ships were chartered by his channels will be available to people with Freeview. Department in each year since 2000-01; and what the [113031] (a) vessel name, (b) flag, (c) ownership, (d) length of charter and (e) cost was of each. [109683] Mr Vaizey: The Good Friday Agreement from 1998 and the subsequent Memorandum of Understanding of Peter Luff: I will place the information held by the February 2010 do not make specific provisions for Ministry of Defence in the Library of the House. coverage of televised sporting events to be made available in Northern Ireland. It is at the discretion of individual Sovereignty: Scotland sports associations and the rights holders, as to how they sell their properties by jurisdiction and by broadcast Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for platform. Defence (1) what correspondence (a) he, (b) Ministers in his Department and (c) officials in his Department Leveson Inquiry have had with the Scottish Government on the potential consequences of Scotland leaving the UK; and if he will place in the Library a copy of any such correspondence; Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much it cost [112627] to provide him with legal advice in relation to his (2) what discussions (a) he, (b) Ministers in his appearance at the Leveson Inquiry. [112773] Department and (c) officials in his Department have had with Scottish Government Ministers or officials on Mr Jeremy Hunt [holding answer 19 June 2012]: the potential consequences of Scotland leaving the Government witnesses have been provided with support UK. [112637] from Treasury Counsel and Solicitors and other officials in the preparation for the part of their evidence relating Mr Philip Hammond: Defence Ministers, officials to Government business. The Government will publish and I have had no discussions with the Scottish Government the cost of Treasury Solicitors and Counsel at the end on the consequences of Scotland leaving the UK. The of part 1 of the inquiry. Government’s position on this is clear: Scotland is stronger as part of the UK and the UK is stronger with Scotland in it. The Government is not making plans for Music: Grants independence as we are confident that people in Scotland will continue to support the United Kingdom in any Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for referendum. Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much the Arts Council spent on (a) opera and (b) brass bands CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT in each of the last two years. [112898] Freeview Service: Northern Ireland Mr Vaizey: Over the last two years, the Arts Council has allocated the following funding, across its various Mr Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State funding strands, to organisations that include (a) opera for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport whether under or (b) brass bands as part of their art form.

(a) Opera £ Opera 2010-11 2011-12 Total

Regular Funded Organisations 67,079,350 62,450,875 129,530,225 Grants for the Arts 667,300 1,119,358 1,786,658 Managed Funds 540,161 220,000 760,161 Total investment 68,286,811 63,790,233 132,077,044

(b) Brass bands £ Brass bands 2010-11 2011-12 Total

Regular Funded Organisations 24,626 22,927 47,553 Grants for the Arts 51,616 246,363 297,979 Managed Funds 6,000 — 6,000 Total investment 82,242 269,290 351,532

Pay John Penrose: The Department has not made any steps to introduce regional pay as it does not have any employees who are based outside of the London Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, region. Olympics, Media and Sport what steps his Department has taken to introduce regional pay since 20 March 2012; and if he will make a statement. [112388] 1089W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1090W

Public Libraries estimated that the total number of potentially affected households for which DTT is the primary means of Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for receiving television content, would be 900,000, in the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) if he will absence of any mitigation measures. estimate the number of libraries that charge for the use The same updated analysis indicates that installing of e-books; [112510] filters at customer premises reduces this figure to 15,500 (2) if he will estimate the number of libraries that households. If mobile networks also reduced the radiated have e-books available for loan. [112543] power from the 150 base station sites, which are predicted to cause the greatest interference impact, the estimated Mr Vaizey: Data about the library sector is published total number of remaining households affected by annually by the Chartered Institute of Public Finance interference is further reduced to 7,000. and Accountancy (CIPFA). CIPFA’s most recent data The Government announced in February that there shows that at 31 March 2011, 48 library authorities had would be up to £180 million available to address the e-book availability/stock. We would expect subsequent interference problems administered by a body called statistics to show an on-going increase in the take-up of Mitco, with the money coming from the winning auction e-lending. bidders. We are unable to provide an accurate estimate of the number of libraries or library authorities that charge for the use of e-books as this information is not routinely collected. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE

Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Diesel Fuel Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) if he will estimate the proportion of the population that use Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for libraries; [112588] Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has (2) if he will estimate the average age of a library made of the extent to which diesel produced in the UK meets demand; and how much diesel is likely to be user. [112589] imported from (a) Russia and (b) the far east in the Mr Vaizey: In 2011, 39.2% of adults had used a next 12 months. [112938] library in the last 12 months. Our most recent data for children shows that in 2010-11, 75.6% of children had Charles Hendry: The UK is a net importer of diesel, visited a library in the last 12 months. with net imports in 2011 of 4.7 million tonnes against a demand of 20.0 million tonnes. Of the 7.8 million During January to December 2011, the average age of tonnes of diesel imported in 2011 22% came from adults attending a library at least once in the year was Russia and less than 1% from the far east. 46.7 years old. DECC does not forecast imports by country. Imports This data is taken from the Department’s most recent are a commercial matter for individual companies and Taking Part quarterly release, published on our website: the proportion of diesel coming from each country http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/research/ varies over time according to conditions on the global TP_Y7_Q3_Figures_Libraries.xls market. This link also contains ″Taking Part 2011/12 Quarter 2: Statistical Release—Digital participation″ that shows Energy Supply headline digital engagement figures, including digital participation in libraries. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change when he plans to publish Radio Frequencies an updated impact assessment on Contracts for Difference following the publication of the Draft Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Energy Bill. [111379] for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many Freeview viewers he expects to be affected by interference Charles Hendry: DECC intends to publish an impact arising from the rollout of 4G services; [112862] assessment on Contracts for Difference alongside the final CfD operational framework in the autumn. (2) what assessment he has made of the level of interference likely to be experienced by Freeview Energy: Conservation viewers upon the rollout of 4G services; [112863] (3) what estimate his Department has made of the Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for level of funding which will be required to limit Energy and Climate Change what progress his Department interference caused by the 4G rollout; [112864] has made on providing updated guidance to local authorities (4) whether his Department has considered providing under the Home Energy Conservation Act 1995. funding to mitigate the interference arising from the 4G [113033] rollout from the proceeds of the airwaves auction. [112865] Gregory Barker: We are finalising the updated guidance to local authorities on the Home Energy Conservation Mr Vaizey: In Ofcom’s second consultation on Act 1995 (HECA) working with local government in co-existence of new services in the 800 MHz band with the context of DECC’s Memorandum of Understanding digital terrestrial television (DTT), their updated analysis with the Local Government Association. 1091W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1092W

Green Deal Scheme employed in the petroleum refinery sector in (a) the UK and (b) Scotland. [112939] Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change with reference to the answer Charles Hendry: According to the latest ONS figures of 15 March 2012, Official Report, column 361W, on the total employment in the petroleum refinery sector in the Green Deal Scheme, how many small electricity the UK is approximately 10,000. A separate figure for suppliers have indicated to his Department that they Scotland is not published by ONS. (a) have and (b) have not chosen to accede to the Green Deal Arrangements Agreement. [112879] Publications

Gregory Barker: Smaller electricity suppliers with less Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State than 250,000 customers can choose to take part in the for Energy and Climate Change if he will take steps to Green Deal charge mechanism by acceding to the Green ensure the recent report, co-sponsored by his Department Deal Arrangements Agreement (GDAA). The drafting and Renewables UK, and the corresponding press release of this Agreement is currently being finalised and the are made available on the website of his Department. GDAA will come into operation in due course. Smaller [111779] electricity suppliers will only be in a position to indicate whether they will accede to the GDAA when this Agreement Charles Hendry: Copies of the recent report by BiGGAR is finalised. Economics on ‘Onshore Wind—Direct and Wider Economic Impacts’ and the corresponding joint DECC Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for /RenewableUK press release issued on 7 May 2012 are Energy and Climate Change whether his Department currently available on the DECC website1. plans to issue a draft Green Deal code of practice for 1 A copy of the report is at: consultation with stakeholders; and when such a draft http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/meeting-energy- will be published. [113034] demand/wind/5229-onshore-wind-direct--wider-economic- impacts.pdf Gregory Barker: A draft of the Code of Practice, A copy of the joint DECC/RenewableUK press notice issued on written in co-operation with consumer groups and industry, 7Mayat: was included in the Green Deal consultation launched http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/news/off_wind_pn/ last November. This has now been revised to reflect off_wind_pn.aspx further comments received and to ensure that it provides the right balance between protecting consumers and providing clarity to participants. I plan to lay a final Wind Power draft of the Green Deal Code of Practice in Parliament before the end of the month in accordance with the Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State procedure set out in section 39 of the Energy Act 2011. for Energy and Climate Change what consideration his Department has given to introducing a decommissioning Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for bond to wind farm applications. [111583] Energy and Climate Change how many signatories to the Green Deal memorandum of understanding Charles Hendry: Onshore, wind farm developers make already have a category A consumer credit licence. decommissioning arrangements with the relevant local [113035] planning authorities and other parties who have a particular interest, for example, the landowner. Gregory Barker: Consumer credit licences are a matter Offshore, the statutory decommissioning scheme for for the Office of Fair Trading. wind farms provides security that their removal can be We are working with Green Deal providers to ensure undertaken by developers. that those who wish to enter the market early are able to Both of these regimes provide for the use of bonds if do so. This would include having the necessary authorisation appropriate in the circumstances. to offer credit to consumers. Chris Heaton-Harris: To ask the Secretary of State Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for for Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to Energy and Climate Change whether his Department take to ensure that wind farms will be decommissioned made an assessment of how many category A consumer at the end of their useful life and that the developer will credit licences the Office of Fair Trading has issued in be responsible for the cost of this and the restoration of each of the last five years during the development of the the site to its original condition. [111658] Green Deal; and how long it takes on average for such a licence application to be completed. [113036] Charles Hendry: For onshore wind farms, the Secretary of State, or relevant local planning authorities are able Gregory Barker: Consumer credit licensing is a matter to include requirements for decommissioning and for the Office of Fair Trading. The Department has restoration of land to an acceptable state condition as been working closely with the Office of Fair Trading part of the planning approval process. during development of the Green Deal policy. Offshore, there is a statutory decommissioning scheme Oil which allows the Secretary of State to compel wind farm developers to submit costed programmes for the Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for removal of their projects with funds set aside for that Energy and Climate Change how many people are purpose. 1093W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1094W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE noted the former’s commitment to a democratic society, based on the rule of law and good governance, and Afghanistan respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms of its citizens, including equality of men and women and Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for their active participation in Afghan society. They Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment emphasised the importance of Afghan women participating he has made of the effectiveness of the measures taken as fully as possible in a future secure and stable Afghanistan to date on the recruitment of women in the Afghan and the need to respect institutional arrangements protecting National Security Forces. [112997] their rights. The summit communiqué reaffirmed NATO’s commitment to full implementation of United Nations Alistair Burt: Recruitment of women to the Afghan Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1325 on women, National Security Forces remains difficult for cultural peace and security. and historical reasons, with a mixed picture across the We support Afghan Government efforts to develop forces. Women currently represent just under 2% of the policies and monitoring within the Afghan National Afghan National Army and around 1% in the Afghan Security Forces to ensure that women are encouraged National Police. The Afghan Government and the and empowered to play a full role in the delivery of international community are working to create opportunities security across Afghanistan. for women within the police force and to recruit 5,000 women over the next five years. Ministerial Policy Advisers Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign he has had with his Afghan counterpart on the future and Commonwealth Affairs whether special advisers in recruitment of women in the Afghan National Security his Department are permitted to use non-departmental Forces. [112998] email addresses for departmental business. [113073]

Alistair Burt: The Secretary of State for Foreign and Mr Lidington: The special advisers adhere to the Commonwealth Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member Ministerial Code, the Code of Conduct for Special for Richmond (Yorks) (Mr Hague), has not had recent Advisers, and the Civil Service Code which set out how discussions with Afghan counterparts on this specific Ministers, officials and special advisers should conduct issue but was able to discuss security challenges and the Government business. developing capability of the Afghan National Security Forces when he met the Deputy Commander of ISAF FCO guidance stales that: Unofficial and private in Kabul last week. Our embassy in Kabul and the e-mail accounts should not routinely be used for official Provincial Reconstruction Team in Lashkar Gah work purposes. Such accounts may be used when there is no closely with the Afghan Government and international viable alternative, but only for unclassified material. partners to encourage opportunities for women within This guidance applies to everyone, including special the Afghan National Security Forces. advisers.

Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment Nepal: Tibet he has made of the likely effectiveness of training which (a) has taken place and (b) is planned within the Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Afghan National Security Forces on the 2009 Law on and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has the Elimination of Violence Against Women. [112999] received on the ability of British passport holders to cross the border between Nepal and Tibet. [112437] Alistair Burt: There has been real progress in the provision of effective training since the NATO Training Mr Jeremy Browne: The British embassy in Kathmandu Mission—Afghanistan was established in 2009. The recently received a report that a group of British nationals Afghan National Police receive training on gender were not allowed to cross the border from Nepal into integration, domestic violence and the prevention of Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR). The Chinese embassy violence against women. Standards of behaviour are set in Kathmandu confirmed that those without travel out in their code of conduct, including respect for the permits issued from Lhasa are not allowed to cross the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. We regularly border. press the Afghan Government to implement its human rights commitments, including the elimination of violence Foreigners wishing to travel to the TAR require the against women law and the UN convention on the permission of the Chinese authorities. However the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women. Chinese authorities periodically suspend issuing permits for travel to, and within, the TAR for foreign nationals, Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for and may also restrict travel to the region by those who Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment have already obtained a permit. This is clearly stated in he has made of progress in developing monitoring and our travel advice for China: accountability mechanisms with the Afghan National http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-living-abroad/travel- Security Forces. [113000] advice-by-country/asia-oceania/china Travel agencies in China reported on 6 June that Alistair Burt: At the NATO summit in May, the permits are not currently being granted to foreign tourists. Afghan Government and troop contributing nations The Chinese Government has not confirmed this. 1095W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1096W

WORK AND PENSIONS The impact assessment is available at http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/esa-time-limit-wr2011-ia-revised- Employment and Support Allowance apr2011.pdf

Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what rate of Employment and Work and Pensions how many people in the UK have Support Allowance is paid to applicants who have not been receiving the assessment phase rate of employment been given an appointment for an Atos Assessment and support allowance for more than (a) 12 months after 13 weeks; and if he will make a statement. [112800] and (b) six months. [113145]

Chris Grayling: While awaiting a Work Capability Chris Grayling: Statistics on Employment Support Assessment a claimant is paid basic allowance of Allowance, for Great Britain, by the Phase of claim and employment and support allowance (ESA). The rate is duration, are available from 100% data and are published dependent on specific circumstances but currently it is on the Department’s website at: £71.00 for a single person aged 25 or over—the same http://83.244.183.180/100pc/esa/esa_phase/ctdurtn/ rate as jobseeker’s allowance. a_carate_r_esa_phase_c_ctdurtn_nov11.html This rate applies to the first 13 weeks of the claim Guidance for users is available at: after which an extra component is paid if the claimant http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd1/tabtools/guidance.pdf is found to have a limited capability for work and is awarded ESA. The amount of the component depends Statistics for Northern Ireland are the responsibility on whether the claimant is placed in either the Work of the Department for Social Development and are Related Activity Group or the Support Group. published on their website at: If a claimant is assessed after 13 weeks and is found http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/index/stats_and_research.htm to be eligible for ESA, then the appropriate component Jobcentre Plus: : Hearing Impairment rate is backdated to the same 13 week point in the claim.

Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr David Hamilton: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how many people in each parliamentary Work and Pensions what steps his Department has constituency (a) no longer receive any employment and taken to ensure that deaf and hearing impaired people support allowance (ESA) and (b) receive income-related can communicate with Jobcentre Plus through mechanisms ESA as a result of the introduction of a one-year time other than the telephone, including making urgent contact limit for eligibility of contributory ESA. [113140] to rearrange appointments. [109520]

Chris Grayling: In answer to part (a), off-flows for Maria Miller: The Department, through Jobcentre employment support allowance, by parliamentary Plus, recognises its responsibilities to make reasonable constituency, are available from 100% data and are adjustments for those of its clients for whom the standard published on the Department’s website at: telephony channel is not suitable. It is also recognised http://83.244.183.180/flows/flows_off/esa/ccparlc/ that people sometimes need to contact Jobcentre Plus payment_type/ urgently, for example to rearrange appointments. a_carate_r_ccparlc_c_payment_type_nov11.html To help ensure deaf and hearing impaired people Guidance for users is available at: have full access to its services the Department has taken http://83.244.183.180/flows/flows_off/ a number of steps. Guidance%20for%20Users.pdf Hearing loops are available in offices and textphones The information requested at part (b) is not readily are offered as an alternative to telephones; textphone available and could be provided only at disproportionate numbers are advertised on relevant websites and included cost. in communication materials. DWP introduced Texbox To provide an estimate of those who have received in late 2009 to improve access to textphone services; this contributory employment and support allowance (ESA) desktop application enables staff to answer textphone for 365 days, who then go on to receive income-related calls more effectively using their PCs. ESA would require a new piece of analysis. We estimate The Department uses a framework of suppliers to that to assess the completeness of recording and quality provide a range of communication methods, including assure the results would take in excess of five working British Sign Language; lip speakers; sign language days and would therefore incur disproportionate cost. communicators and note takers. Jobcentres can arrange for these communicators to be available in offices to Stephen Gilbert: To ask the Secretary of State for support deaf and hearing impaired clients at interviews. Work and Pensions how many people in each parliamentary constituency he expects to cease receiving contributory DWP can also communicate with people via email if employment and support allowance as a result of the this is needed as a reasonable adjustment relating to a introduction of a one-year time limit in the next 12 disability. months; and what impact assessment his Department has undertaken in relation to this policy. [113141] Members: Correspondence

Chris Grayling: Information on the parliamentary Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Work constituency of those affected by the time-limiting of and Pensions if he will arrange for the hon. Member for contributory employment and support allowance for Walsall North to receive a reply to his letter of 14 May those in the Work Related Activity Group could be 2012 to the Child Support Agency, ref CSA/0285524. produced only at disproportionate cost. [112988] 1097W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1098W

Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php?page- Commission is responsible for the child maintenance pensioners_income system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner These statistics provide a breakdown of the income to write to the hon. Member with the information levels of pensioners at a regional level. requested and I have seen the response. Three-year averages are used to report regional statistics Letter from Noel Shanahan: as single-year estimates are subject to volatility. In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the (a) It is not possible to provide the information at Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive this geographical level. reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance Table 1 shows the gross annual mean income in (i) and Enforcement Commission. cash terms, for pensioner couples and single pensioners You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, if he in (b) Yorkshire and the Humber, (c) England and (d) will arrange for the hon. Member for Walsall North to receive a the UK, for three year periods spanning 1994-95 to reply to his letter of 14 May 2012 to the Child Support Agency, 2009-10, which is the latest year for which figures are ref CSA/0285524. [112988] available. The Senior Resolution Manager of our North West office wrote to you on 18 June 2012 in reply to your correspondence of Table 2 shows the gross annual mean income in (ii) 14 May 2012. I trust this letter clarifies the situation. 2009-10 prices, for pensioner couples and single pensioners in (b) Yorkshire and the Humber, (c) England and (d) Pensioners: Income the UK, for three year periods spanning 1994-95 to 2009-10, which is the latest year for which figures are Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work available. and Pensions what the average annual income of These statistics are based on Pensioners’ Income pensioner households in (a) Yo rk , (b) Yorkshire and Series (PI) data sourced from the Family Resources the Humber, (c) England and (d) the UK was (i) in Survey (FRS) which started in 1994-95, so it has not cash terms and (ii) at current prices in each year since been possibly to provide figures prior to 1994-95. 1992. [111435] Data for the UK is not available in the PI series prior Steve Webb: Estimates of pensioner incomes are to 2002-03. published in the Pensioners’ Incomes Series. The latest In each case, incomes have been rounded to the information is available on the Department’s website at nearest £100.

Table 1: Gross annual mean incomes in (i) cash terms Incomes in £ per year, in cash terms Pensioner couples Single pensioners (b) Yorkshire and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber (c) England (d) UK the Humber (c) England (d) UK

1994-95 to 1996-97 12,600 15,200 — 6,700 7,200 — 1995-96 to 1997-98 14,100 16,000 — 7,000 7,500 — 1996-97 to 1998-99 15,600 17,200 — 7,300 8,000 — 1997-98 to 1999-2000 16,900 18,100 — 8,000 8,500 — 1998-99 to 2000-01 17,100 19,200 — 8,800 9,100 — 1999-2000 to 2001-02 18,100 20,200 — 9,300 9,600 — 2000-01 to 2002-03 18,700 21,100 — 9,700 10,100 — 2001-02 to 2003-04 20,800 22,300 — 10,000 10,500 — 2002-03 to 2004-05 21,000 23,400 23,000 10,600 11,100 11,000 2003-04 to 2005-06 22,300 24,800 24,400 11,000 11,800 11,600 2004-05 to 2006-07 21,900 25,900 25,500 11,500 12,500 12,300 2005-06 to 2007-08 23,300 27,200 26,800 12,100 13,100 12,900 2006-07 to 2008-09 24;200 28,600 28,100 12,700 13,700 13,600 2007-08 to 2009-10 25,500 30,100 29,900 12,900 14,300 14,200

Table 2: Gross annual mean incomes in (ii) 2009-10 prices Incomes in £ per year, in 2009-10 prices Pensioner couples Single pensioners (b) Yorkshire and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber (c) England (d) UK the Humber England (d) UK

1994-95 to 1996-97 17,800 21,500 — 9,600 10,200 — 1995-96 to 1997-98 19,400 22,100 — 9,700 10,400 — 1996-97 to 1998-99 20,900 23,100 — 9,800 10,700 — 1997-98 to 1999-2000 22,100 23,600 — 10,400 11,100 — 1998-99 to 2000-01 21,800 24,400 — 11,300 11,700 — 1999-2000 to 2001-02 22,600 25,300 — 11,600 12,000 — 2000-01 to 2002-03 22,900 25,900 — 11,900 12,300 — 2001-02 to 2003-04 25,100 26,800 — 12,100 12,600 — 2002-03 to 2004-05 24,700 27,500 27,000 12,500 13,000 12,900 2003-04 to 2005-06 25,600 28,500 27,900 12,600 13,500 13,300 1099W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1100W

Table 2: Gross annual mean incomes in (ii) 2009-10 prices Incomes in £ per year, in 2009-10 prices Pensioner couples Single pensioners (b) Yorkshire and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber (c) England (d) UK the Humber England (d) UK

2004-05 to 2006-07 24,300 28,700 28,300 12,800 13,900 13,700 2005-06 to 2007-08 25,000 29,200 28,800 13,000 14,000 13,800 2006-07 to 2008-09 25,000 29,600 29,200 13,200 14,200 14,100 2007-08 to 2009-10 25,800 30,400 30,200 13,000 14,500 14,400 Notes: 1. Mean incomes have been presented in line with the Pensioners’ Incomes series publication. 2. Gross incomes have been used to answer the question. This includes earnings from employment and self-employment, state support, income from occupational and private pensions, investment income and other sources. 3. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 4. Incomes have not been equivalised (ie they have not been adjusted for household size or composition). 5. Annual incomes have been rounded to the nearest £100. 6. It was announced in May that the 2009-10 results will be revised when the 2010-11 results are published on 12 July 2012. See the DWP PI website for further information. Source: Pensioners’ Incomes Series 2009-10

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the UK, for three year periods spanning 1994-95 to and Pensions what the average annual value of state 2009-10, which is the latest year for which figures are pensions, cash benefits and benefits in kind received available. from the state by pensioner households in (a) Yo rk , Table 2 shows the annual mean benefit income in (ii) (b) Yorkshire and the Humber, (c) England and (d) 2009-10 prices, for pensioner couples and single pensioners the UK was (i) in cash terms and (ii) at current prices in in (b) Yorkshire and the Humber, (c) England and (d) each year since 1992. [111436] the UK, for three year periods spanning 1994-95 to 2009-10, which is the latest year for which figures are available. Steve Webb: Estimates of pensioner incomes are published in the Pensioners’ Incomes Series. The latest In each case, incomes have been rounded to the information is available on the Department’s website at: nearest £100. Benefit income includes the state pension as well as http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/index.php? page=pensioners_income all social security benefits (including social fund, maternity, These statistics provide a breakdown of the income funeral and community care grants but excluding social levels of pensioners at a regional level. fund loans) and tax credits. Three-year averages are used to report regional statistics These statistics are based on Pensioners’ Income as single-year estimates are subject to volatility. Series (PI) data sourced from the Family Resources Survey (FRS) which started in 1994-95, so it has not (a) It is not possible to provide the information at been possible to provide figures prior to 1994-95. this geographical level. Data for the UK are not available in the PI series Table 1 shows the annual mean benefit income in (i) prior to 2002-03. cash terms, for pensioner couples and single pensioners Data are not available to show the cash equivalent of in (b) Yorkshire and the Humber, (c) England and (d) benefits received in kind.

Table 1: Annual mean benefit income in (i) cash terms Incomes in £ per year, in cash terms Pensioner couples Single pensioners (b) Yorkshire and (b) Yorkshire and The The Humber (c) England (d) UK Humber (c) England (d) UK

1994-95 to 1996-97 5,800 5,800 — 4,600 4,500 — 1995-96 to 1997-98 6,000 6,000 — 4,700 4,700 — 1996-97 to 1998-99 6,300 6,300 — 5,100 5,000 — 1997-98 to 1999-2000 6,700 6,500 — 5,400 5,200 — 1998-99 to 2000-01 7,000 6,800 — 5,600 5,500 — 1999-2000 to 2001-02 7,400 7,200 — 5,800 5,800 — 2000-01 to 2002-03 7,700 7,500 — 6,100 6,100 — 2001-02 to 2003-04 8,100 7,900 — 6,400 6,400 — 2002-03 to 2004-05 8,400 8,200 8,300 6,800 6,700 6,800 2003-04 to 2005-06 8,800 8,600 8,700 7,200 7,100 7,100 2004-05 to 2006-07 9,100 9,000 9,000 7,500 7,400 7,400 2005-06 to 2007-08 9,300 9,200 9,300 7,700 7,700 7,700 2006-07 to 2008-09 9,500 9,500 9,500 8,100 8,000 8,000 2007-08 to 2009-10 9,900 10,000 10,000 8,600 8,400 8,400 1101W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1102W

Table 2: Annual mean benefit income in (ii) 2009-10 prices Incomes in £ per year, in 2009-10 prices Pensioner couples Single pensioners (b) Yorkshire and The (b) Yorkshire and The Humber (c) England (d) UK Humber (c) England (d) UK

1994-95 to 1996-97 8,300 8,200 — 6,500 6,400 — 1995-96 to 1997-98 8,300 8,300 — 6,500 6,500 — 1996-97 to 1998-99 8,500 8,400 — 6,800 6,600 — 1997-98 to 1999-2000 8,700 8,500 — 7,000 6,800 — 1998-99 to 2000-01 9,000 8,700 — 7,200 7,000 — 1999-2000 to 2001-02 9,300 9,000 — 7,300 7,300 — 2000-01 to 2002-03 9,500 9,300 — 7,500 7,500 — 2001-02 to 2003-04 9,700 9,500 — 7,700 7,700 — 2002-03 to 2004-05 9,900 9,700 9,800 8,000 7,900 7,900 2003-04 to 2005-06 10,100 9,900 10,000 8,200 8,100 8,100 2004-05 to 2006-07 10,100 10,000 10,000 8,300 8,200 8,200 2005-06 to 2007-08 9,900 9,900 10,000 8,200 8,200 8,200 2006-07 to 2008-09 9,900 9,800 9,900 8,400 8,300 8,300 2007-08 to 2009-10 10,000 10,100 10,200 8,700 8,500 8,500 Notes: 1. Mean incomes have been presented in line with the Pensioners’ Incomes series publication. 2. All estimates are based on survey data and are therefore subject to a degree of uncertainty. Small differences should be treated with caution as these will be affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 3. Incomes have not been equivalised (i.e. they have not been adjusted for household size or composition). 4. Annual incomes have been rounded to the nearest £100. 5. It was announced in May that the 2009-10 results will be revised when the 2010-11 results are published on 12 July 2012. See the DWP PI website for further information. Source: Pensioners’ Incomes Series 2009/10.

Regulation The Personal Pension Schemes (Appropriate Schemes) Regulations 1997 (S.I.1997/470) Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for The Occupational Pension Schemes (Age-related Payments) Work and Pensions how many regulations his Department Regulations 1997 (S.I. 1997/946). has repealed between 1 February and 31 May 2012; and These regulations were revoked as part of the if he will estimate the potential savings to those affected implementation of the abolition of contracting-out for in each case. [112986] defined contributions pension schemes. Annual administrative cost savings for employers and pension Chris Grayling: The following sets of regulations schemes are estimated to be £5.3 million. There are also were revoked between 1 February and 31 May 2012 by estimated annual cost savings to the Government of my Department, and no cost savings were identified: administering the contracting-out system for these schemes The Control of Asbestos Regulations 2006 (S.I. 2006/2739) of £2 million. The relevant Impact Assessment which sets out the detail of the cost savings for the abolition of The Jobseeker’s Allowance (Work for YourBenefit Pilot Scheme) Regulations 2010 (S.I. 2010/1222) contracting-out on a defined contributions basis can be found alongside the Explanatory Memorandum for S.I. The Social Security Benefits Up-rating Regulations 2011 (S.I. 2011/ 830). 2012/1245 at: S.I. 2006/2739 was revoked and replaced by the Control www.legislation.gov.uk of Asbestos Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/632) to introduce The Health and Safety (Miscellaneous Revocations) amendments needed to fulfil the requirements of a Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/1537), made on 13 June, European Commission reasoned opinion. S.I. 2010/1222 laid before Parliament on 18 June and due to come into provided for a Work for Your Benefit pilot scheme to be force on 1 October 2012, will revoke the following sets set up; in November 2010 I announced that the scheme of regulations, and no cost savings were identified: would not go ahead. S.I. 2011/830 is an annual set of Regulations, dated August 24th, 1906, made by the Secretary of up-rating regulations which are revoked when the up-rating State for Use of Locomotives and Wagons on Lines and Sidings regulations for the following year come into force. in or used in connexion with Premises under the Factory and The following sets of regulations were revoked on Workshop Act, 1901 (S.R. & O 1906/679) 6 April 2012 by my Department, for which cost savings The Pottery (Health and Welfare) Special Regulations 1950 were identified: (S.I. 1950/65) The Personal Pension Schemes (Compensation) Regulations The Non-ferrous Metals (Melting and Founding) Regulations 1998 (S.I. 1988/2238) 1962 (S.I. 1962/1667) The Occupational Pension Schemes (Discharge of Protected The Employment Medical Advisory Service (Factories Act Rights on Winding-up) Regulations 1996 (S.I. 1996/775) Orders etc. Amendment) Order 1973 (S.I. 1973/36) The Protected Rights (Transfer Payment) Regulations 1996 The Health and Safety (Foundries etc.) (Metrication) Regulations (S.I. 1996/1461) 1981 (S.I. 1981/1332) The Occupational Pension Schemes (Mixed Benefit Contracted-out The Pottery (Health etc.) (Metrication) Regulations 1982 (S.I. 1982/ Schemes) 1996 (S.I. 1996/1977) 877); and The Personal and Occupational Pension Schemes (Protected The Anthrax Prevention Order 1971 etc. (Revocation) Regulations Rights) Regulations 1996 (S.I. 1996/1537) 2005 (S.I. 2005/228). 1103W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1104W

Most of these instruments are old and the provisions BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS of some have been revoked in large part by other instruments or contain amendments to instruments which Credit Reference Agencies: Telephone Services have been subsequently revoked or have been superseded by more modern legislation. The Impact Assessment Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for can be found alongside the Explanatory Memorandum Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions his for S.I. 2012/1537. Department has had on bringing forward legislative proposals to ensure that credit ratings agencies are Social Security Benefits obliged to provide freephone 0800 access to their organisation for the purposes of reporting and dealing with errors. [112895] Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) Work and Pensions how many people in Greater Norman Lamb: This Department has had no such (b) (c) Manchester, the north-west and England will discussions. Reporting and dealing with errors can be be eligible for fewer benefits upon the introduction of dealt with in writing either online, by e-mail or by the benefit cap in April 2013. [112903] correspondence to the Credit Reference Agencies (CRAs): Chris Grayling: The estimate for Greater Manchester Experian Customer Support Centre, PO Box 8000, Nottingham NG80 7WF is that 1,800 households will have their benefit reduced to the cap level, from April 2013. Equifax Ltd, Credit File Advice Centre, PO Box 1140, Bradford, BD1 5US The corresponding estimate for the north-west of Callcredit plc, PO Box 491 Leeds LS3 1WZ. England is 4,000 households, and the corresponding estimate for England as a whole is 61,600 households. If a consumer has written to the CRA concerned because the information on their credit reference file The figures presented above are consistent with the was wrong and the CRA has either not replied within impact assessment published on 23 January 2012, where 28 days or they have replied but the information is still the total number of affected households in Great Britain wrong, consumers can write to the Information was estimated as 67,000. Following the concessions Commissioner’s Office at Wycliffe House, Water Lane, made in the House of Commons on 1 February, we Wilmslow, Cheshire, SK9 5AF. estimate that the introduction of an exemption for those in receipt of the support component of employment Electronic Cigarettes: Trading Standards support allowance and a grace period of 39 weeks for claimants who have been in employment for 52 weeks Tracey Crouch: To ask the Secretary of State for or more before leaving work will reduce the overall Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to the answer number of households affected in Great Britain to of 13 June 2012, Official Report, column 511W, on around 57,000. electronic cigarettes, if he will consider issuing guidance This assumes that the situation of these households to local trading standards officers on the sale of electronic will go unchanged, and they will not take any steps to cigarettes and the evidence of illegal sales from other either work enough hours to qualify for working tax markets such as China. [112822] credit, renegotiate their rent in situ, or find alternative accommodation. In all cases the Department is working Norman Lamb: BIS has recently established a Product to support households through this transition, using Safety Focus Group with regional representatives of existing provision through Jobcentre Plus and the Work Trading Standards product safety groups. This group of programme to move as many into work as possible. safety experts share information on current trends in the market and on product safety concerns. We are Work Capability Assessment aware that e-cigarettes are a concern to some local authorities and that Trading Standards have also been Sheila Gilmore: To ask the Secretary of State for working with the industry association to develop an Work and Pensions when he plans to publish the industry code of practice. Should Trading Standards Government’s response to his Department’s consultation need additional guidance on a particular product such paper, Work Capability Assessment: accounting for the as e-cigarettes then we have established a mechanism to effects of cancer treatment; and if he will make a facilitate this. statement. [113144] Regulation Chris Grayling: We are determined the benefits system should support people who are diagnosed with cancer Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for in the most sensitive, fair and appropriate way. Business, Innovation and Skills which regulations his Department repealed between 1 February 2012 and People who are receiving or recovering from many 31 May 2012; and what the anticipated total saving to forms of chemotherapy are currently automatically eligible those affected will be of repealing such regulations. for employment and support allowance. Since spring [112079] 2011, this provision has been extended to include those who are awaiting or in between courses of such treatment. Mr Prisk: The Department for Business, Innovation Following our informal consultation on accounting and Skills has repealed two measures between 1 February for the effects of cancer treatment in the Work Capability 2012 and 31 May 2012: Assessment which closed in spring 2012, we continue to (1) Export Control (Syria Sanctions) and (Miscellaneous analyse the responses and will publish a consultation Amendments) Order 2012—repeals The Export Control (Uzbekistan) response, outlining our proposals, in the summer. (Amendment) Order 2009. The 2012 Order entered into force on 1105W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1106W

1 April 2012. It is a country-specific export control order implementing defibrillators in public places and (b) health benefits trade sanctions and arms embargoes imposed by legally-binding which would result from having defibrillators in schools. United Nations Security Council Resolutions and Decisions of [113004] the Council of the EU. It sets out the penalties for breaches of those sanctions. Mr Simon Burns: The Department has made no such (2) The Restriction on Agreements and Conduct (Specified Domestic Electrical Goods) Order 1998 (Revocation) Order 2012— assessment. The National Defibrillator Programme, which repeals the Restriction on Agreements and Conduct (Specified is the responsibility of ambulance trusts and is co-ordinated Domestic Electrical Goods) Order 1998. The 2012 Order entered by the British Heart Foundation, installs automatic into force on 1 February 2012 by the Competition Commission. It external defibrillators where they are most needed. prohibits suppliers of certain domestic electrical goods agreeing However, ambulance trusts now report on clinical with retailers on recommended retail pricing, essentially price outcomes of patients who suffer an out-of-hospital fixing, as well as certain other forms of anti-competitive behaviour. cardiac arrest. The number of patients who have a There are no associated savings from repealing these return of spontaneous circulation at the point of arrival regulations. at hospital and the number of patients who survive to discharge are recorded and published on the Department’s website and on ambulance trust websites. The statistics HEALTH can be accessed from: Brain Cancer www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ Performancedataandstatistics/AmbulanceQualityIndicators/ index.htm Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health if he will take steps to ensure that more cancer Guy’s and St Thomas NHS Foundation Trust: research focuses on brain tumours. [112647] Pharmacy Paul Burstow: The Department is fully committed to clinical and applied research into treatment and cures Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health for cancer. what steps he plans to take in the event that the consultation on the proposal to privatise pharmacy The Department’s National Institute for Health Research services in the Gus and St Thomas’ Foundation Trust is (NIHR) welcomes funding applications for research opposed by the public. [112820] into any aspect of human health, including brain tumours. These applications are subject to peer review and judged in open competition, with awards being made on the Paul Burstow: This is a matter for the trust, its board basis of the scientific quality of the proposals made. In of directors and governors to determine. However, we all disease areas, the amount of NIHR funding depends are advised that the trust is only proposing to outsource on the volume and quality of scientific activity. its out-patient dispensing and distribution of drugs to patients at home and that it has no plans to change the In August 2011, the Government announced £800 in-patient or pharmacy manufacturing services. As this million investment over five years in a series of NIHR represents a change of provider and not a change to biomedical research centres and units. This includes services, there is no requirement for public consultation. £61.5 million funding for the Royal Marsden/Institute We understand that the small number of staff potentially of Cancer Research Biomedical Research Centre, which affected by the change will be consulted. undertakes research on cancer sites including the brain. The NIHR funds 15 Experimental Cancer Medicine Health Services Centres across England in close partnership with Cancer Research UK. Brain cancer is included within the disease focus of three of these centres. Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health when he plans to publish the review of the role In 2010-11, the equivalent of 19.8% of new incident of clinical networks; and if he will place a copy in the cancer cases were recruited into studies hosted by the Library. [112695] NIHR Cancer Research Network (NCRN), representing a fivefold increase in recruitment in the decade since the network was established. In the same year, 194 patients Mr Simon Burns: To date, over 800 stakeholders have were recruited to randomised controlled trials in brain contributed to work being taken forward by the NHS cancer hosted by the NCRN. Commissioning Board Authority (NHS CBA) on the development of clinical networks. These include patients, Cancer clinicians, commissioner providers, Royal Colleges and academics. The NHS CBA will publish its recommendations Sir Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for for clinical networks in the new health system in July. A Health how many cases there were of emergency copy of the recommendations will be placed in the readmission to hospitals through accident and emergency Library. departments of cancer patients within 30 days of discharge from hospital in each of the last three years. [112831] Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements Paul Burstow: This information is not available. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Defibrillators: Schools Health how many patients registered at an address in (a) Scotland, (b) Wales and (c) Northern Ireland Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Health received treatment at a hospital in England in each what assessment he has made of the (a) effect of having month since May 2010. [113075] 1107W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1108W

Mr Simon Burns: The following tables show the number Out-patient attendances of finished admission episodes (inpatients), out-patient Northern Total attendances (out-patient) and accident and emergency Month Scotland Wales Ireland attendances (A&E) attendances for patients identified as resident in December 1,128 20,123 258 5,387,921 Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland strategic health authorities. 2012 In-patient finished admission episodes (FAEs) January 1,452 23,836 265 6,384,001 Northern Total February 1,349 22,879 304 6,085,981 Month Scotland Wales Ireland FAEs Accident and emergency attendances 2010 Northern Total May 608 4,808 153 1,214,441 Month Scotland Wales Ireland attendances June 662 5,027 208 1,267,020 July 802 4,974 192 1,271,826 2010 August 712 4,781 191 1,207,305 May 1,443 4,041 255 1,443,785 September 697 4,800 174 1,265,420 June 1,562 4,078 278 1,397,321 October 722 4,651 175 1,260,699 July 2,686 4,342 436 1,442,289 November 644 4,877 182 1,288,492 August 1,874 4,468 333 1,345,139 December 528 4,160 127 1,185,182 September 1,511 3,813 275 1,346,328 October 1,553 3,764 264 1,356,486 2011 November 968 3,358 203 1,285,427 December 1,113 3,518 215 1,322,514 January 615 4,228 158 1,223,968 February 522 4,329 141 1,173,697 March 625 5,033 159 1,334,848 2011 April 597 4,333 156 1,143,829 January 1,020 3,118 200 1,311,577 May 631 4,803 184 1,236,016 February 948 3,098 209 1,212,860 June 673 4,875 189 1,270,039 March 1,193 3,513 186 1,420,207 July 849 4,630 223 1,243,368 April 1,773 4,103 275 1,452,786 August 720 4,828 199 1,239,111 May 1,489 4,124 256 1,495,912 September 641 4,895 178 1,256,844 June 1,596 4,092 299 1,427,753 July 2,935 4,289 476 1,493,887 October 697 4,728 184 1,255,873 August 1,963 4,746 378 1,413,804 November 521 4,880 153 1,290,444 September 1,673 3,914 301 1,440,447 December 580 4,667 157 1,206,888 October 1,643 4,113 265 1,494,034 November 1,106 3,546 213 1,401,244 2012 December 1,317 3,798 243 1,389,247 January 519 4,764 184 1,281,100 February 524 4,709 167 1,244,131 2012 Out-patient attendances January 1,091 3,352 189 1,410,554 Northern Total February 1,061 3,532 227 1,380,494 Month Scotland Wales Ireland attendances These data are drawn from Hospital Episode Statistics. 2010 It should be noted that for each of these measures, the May 1,332 20,253 281 5,589,873 number does not necessarily equate to the number of June 1,603 22,325 399 6,187,189 patients as it is possible for an individual to have more July 1,541 21,915 345 6,024,397 than one admission or attendance within the period. August 1,365 20,541 334 5,586,435 The data from April 2011 are provisional and may be September 1,506 22,525 314 6,132,641 incomplete or contain errors for which no adjustments October 1,515 21,031 294. 5,815,430 have yet been made. Counts produced from provisional November 1,532 22,704 338 6,266,164 data are likely to be lower than those generated for the December 1,072 17,456 259 4,978,292 same period in the final dataset. This shortfall will be most pronounced in the final month of the latest period. 2011 It is also probable that clinical data are not complete, January 1,424 21,013 379 5,870,157 which may in particular affect the last two months of February 1,360 20,690 314 5,675,057 any given period. There may also be errors due to March 1,622 24,419 371 6,514,378 coding inconsistencies that have not yet been investigated and corrected. April 1,382 19,143 314 5,245,498 May 1,486 21,930 306 6,021,551 June 1,458 23,416 356 6,327,896 Mobile Phones: Health Hazards July 1,434 21,899 345 5,853,529 August 1,465 22,791 340 5,990,906 September 1,420 23,235 361 6,228,323 Ms Abbott: To ask the Secretary of State for Health October 1,314 22,423 327 6,046,456 what recent assessment he has made of the potential November 1,393 24,122 361 6,499,683 public health risk associated with radiation from mobile telephones. [112887] 1109W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1110W

Anne Milton: The Health Protection Agency (HPA) JUSTICE provides advice to Government on health effects from electromagnetic fields (EMF). The HPA’s independent Community Orders Advisory Group on Non-ionising Radiation (AGNIR) recently undertook a comprehensive review of the scientific Heidi Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for evidence relevant to health effects from exposure to Justice if he will estimate the cost in a full financial year radiofrequency EMF, including exposure from mobile of introducing GPS tracking technology for the surveillance phones. AGNIR’s report was published by the HPA on of offenders in England and Wales. [112416] 26 April 2012 and is available at: www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice has invited tenders HPAweb_C/1317133826368 for the next round of electronic monitoring contracts, In between the publication of formal review reports, which we expect to award early in 2013. It would not be the HPA monitors emerging scientific studies covering appropriate to give an estimate of the cost of introducing EMF and keeps its advice under review. GPS tracking technology while the competition is in The Department set up the independently managed progress. Mobile Telecommunications and Health Research (MTHR) programme in 2001 which has funded in the order of Members: Correspondence 28 projects concerning radiofrequency EMF and health to date, including an ongoing study on the long-term Graham Stringer: To ask the Secretary of State for use of mobile phones. Further details of the research Justice when he plans to reply to the letter of 14 April programme are available on the MTHR website at: 2012 from the hon. Member for Blackley and Boughton’s www.mthr.org.uk/ constituent, Elizabeth Dunbar. [113080] Mr Kenneth Clarke: This letter was received in the NHS: Privatisation Ministry of Justice on 16 May. My officials replied to the letter on 20 June.

Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Prisoners: Females what requirements there are for public and patient consultation before a patient service can be privatised Mr Buckland: To ask the Secretary of State for within an NHS hospital. [112804] Justice how many women with home addresses in Swindon who were held in women’s prisons between Paul Burstow: Charges for any NHS service cannot April 2011 and April 2012 committed acts of self-harm be levied without the express permission of Parliament. during their imprisonment. [109686] National health service organisations are obliged, under section 242 of the NHS Act 2006, to involve Mr Blunt: The central system for recording incidents patients and the public in the planning of service provision, of self-harm does not contain home addresses of offenders the development and consideration of proposals for and therefore the numbers of those self-harming from changes in the way those services are provided, and Swindon are unknown. decisions affecting the operation of those services where such proposals impact on the manner in which services Prisons: Shops are provided or the range of services available to patients. Where only the provider of NHS services is changing Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for and there is no impact on services available to the Justice (1) what the average annual change was in prices public, there are no requirements for public and patient for items listed for sale in prison shops via the canteen consultation. list in each year from 2007 to 2012; [112741] Many NHS services are not provided by the public (2) what the average price differential is for items sector. sold in prison shops between the canteen list price and high street price. [112742]

Patients: Transport Mr Blunt: The average annual changes in prices for items listed for sales in prison shops for lines excluding Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health tobacco are: what the recommended maximum journey time is for May 2009 to May 2010—4.2% acute patients travelling to receive (a) percutaneous May2010 to May211—2.9% coronary intervention and (b) thrombolysis. [113029] May 2011 to May 2012—2.8% The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) Retail Contract Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not set out commenced on 1 April 2009. Previous Information for any recommended maximum journey times for acute 2007 to 31 March 2009 is not held centrally by MOJ patients travelling to receive percutaneous coronary and is therefore not provided. intervention and thrombolysis. Tobacco, which is excluded from the above, is shown Both thrombolysis and percutaneous coronary separately as the duty increases have had significant intervention (also known as primary angioplasty) are impact on prices. The movement across the three year effective treatments for heart attack if given within the period of 35.8% was driven primarily by VAT and Duty first two to three hours of onset of symptoms. increases (approximately 60% of the overall increase). 1111W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1112W

The prices charged to prisoners are reviewed every Article 10 requires that dogs and cats may only be 13 weeks. used in procedures if they have been purpose bred. Any The National Product List (NPL) prices set by NOMS exception to this requirement must be justified on scientific are based on two criteria: grounds. Article 11 prohibits the use of stray and feral Price Marked (PM) items are sold to prisoners at the price animals of domestic species except in essential studies marked on the packaging. relating to the health and welfare of the animals, or serious threats to the environment or to human or Manufacturers Recommended Retail Prices (MRRP) items are priced in accordance with available Manufacturers Recommended animal health. Where such an exception is to be granted, Retail Prices. there must be a scientific justification that the purpose The average price differential between items sold in of the procedure can be achieved only by the use of a the prison shop, the National Product List (NPL) and stray or feral animal. the high street can vary on a daily basis. Given the We propose to implement the requirements of Articles 10 number of individual items on the NPL (approximately and 11 by means of the standard conditions to be 800 lines) it is not therefore possible to determine a applied to project licences. representative average price differential. Currently, section 10(3) of the Animals (Scientific At the beginning of each new NPL. a comparison of Procedures) Act 1986 provides similar prohibitions through a small selection of essential items known as the ‘Shopping its requirement for the conditions of a project licence to Basket’ is undertaken to establish how NOMS cost include a condition to the effect that dogs and cats must compares to convenience stores. An average differential be purpose bred and prohibiting the use of wild animals. of prices compared to the high street for all lines is Section 10(3) also provides for exceptions to these therefore not available. The average differential for the prohibitions, where justified. most recent basket comparison is 5.16%. As current UK requirements are not stricter than those of the new directive in this regard, it is not Suicide possible to place an absolute prohibition of the use of stray dogs and cats on the face of revised UK legislation Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice using Article 2 to the directive. Nevertheless, under the with reference to the oral contribution by the Minister 1986 Act, exceptions relating to the use of feral animals of State for Policing of 13 March 2012, Official Report, have been extremely rare and no use of stray animals column 53WH, on investigation of suicides, which has been authorised. We do not envisage any circumstances Government-led, cross-sector forums have discussed under which the use of stray animals will be justified in sudden deaths. [113021] the future and I therefore propose, as a matter of policy, to continue this effective prohibition on the use of stray Mr Djanogly: The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) animals under revised UK legislation transposing the has formed a Coroners Working Group comprising new directive. police, CPS and coroner representatives. The group has been established to focus on improving communications Henry Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for the between the three parties in the event of a suspicious Home Department when she plans to publish the sudden death. Statistics of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals, In February 2012 Ministry of Justice officials convened Great Britain for 2011. [112699] a meeting with representatives from the Home Office, National Policing Improvement Agency, the CPS and the Coroners’ Society of England and Wales to discuss Lynne Featherstone: We plan to publish the Statistics the investigation of non-suspicious sudden deaths. of Scientific Procedures on Living Animals, Great Britain for 2011 on 10 July 2012 at 10 am.

Castes HOME DEPARTMENT

Animal Experiments Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what recent consideration she has given to using the powers in section 9(5)(a) of the Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for the Equality Act 2010 to make caste an aspect of race for Home Department what her policy is on the use of purposes of the Act. [112761] stray dogs and cats in animal experiments through the transposition of the EU Directive on animal experimentation. [112338] Lynne Featherstone: Our consideration of this matter is still ongoing. This is a sensitive issue; any consideration Lynne Featherstone: The UK does not allow the use of how best to proceed must balance the perceived need of stray dogs and cats in animal experiments. The EU for legislative intervention against this Government’s Directive also states that stray animals should not be emphasis on challenging red tape and avoidance of used. We do not envisage any circumstances under additional regulation which may put an unnecessary which the use of stray animals will be justified in the burden on employers and other businesses. future. European Directive 2010/63/EU on the protection of Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for the animals used for scientific purposes is to be implemented Home Department what representations she has received in the United Kingdom and other member states from on making caste an aspect of race under the Equality 1 January 2013. Act 2010. [112762] 1113W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1114W

Lynne Featherstone: We have received, and continue The Home Office publishes quarterly and annual to receive, representations and correspondence on this statistics on the number of persons removed or departed matter from both individuals and organisations. voluntarily from the UK within Immigration Statistics. Among those organisations are: The data on removals and voluntary departures by Anti Caste Discrimination Alliance country of destination is available in the latest release, Immigration Statistics: January-March 2012, tables rv.06 Association for Community Cohesion and rv.06.q, from the Library of the House and from British Sikh Consultative Forum the Home Office Science, research and statistics web Castewatch UK pages at: Hindu Council UK http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/science-research/research- Hindu Forum of Britain statistics/migration/migration-statistics1/ The National Council of Hindu Temples UK The UK Border Agency seeks to achieve the best National Hindu Students Forum value for money when returning nationals with no right Odysseus Trust to remain in the UK. Ticket costs and a number of Voice of Dalit International other factors are taken into account when deciding on the method and route of return. It is not possible to Representations have included a number received as provide an accurate breakdown of the form and class of part of the Government’s Red Tape Challenge spotlight travel without examination of individual records at on equalities exercise that was conducted in 2011. disproportionate cost. Criminal Records: EU Action DNA: Databases Mr Raab: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many requests for information from Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home the UK’s criminal records from other EU Member Department how many individuals are on the DNA States have been made for purposes other than criminal database but have not been charged with an offence. proceedings under Article 6(1) of EU Council Framework [111019] Decision 2009/315/JHA in each year since 2009. [112792] James Brokenshire: The information requested is not currently available. The National DNA Database Lynne Featherstone [holding answer 19 June 2012]: (NDNAD) is designed to match DNA taken from Council Framework Decision 2009/315/JHA was crime scenes with that taken from individuals. It does implemented on 27 April 2012. It replaced Council not hold information on whether those on it have been Decision 2005/876/JHA which had been brought into charged, as this is not necessary for that purpose. As force in June 2006. part of the implementation of the Protection of Freedoms Act, work is under way to enable the removal from the Since 27 April there have been 66 incoming requests NDNAD of the records relating to those without for purposes other than criminal proceedings. Of these convictions, whether or not charged, in accordance with two referred to Government employment, seven were the provisions of the Act. New software on the Police for firearms licenses and 57 were requests from individuals National Computer will use the information recorded for their own criminal record. Many of these related to on that system to identify those whose records must be individuals who have lived in the UK and have since deleted from the NDNAD under the provisions of the returned to their home country. Act, and to drive this deletion automatically through a Deportation link between the two systems. Members: Correspondence Alun Cairns: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer of 15 May 2012, Official Report, column 63W, on deportation, Mr Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the how many immigrants the UK Border Agency deported Home Department if she will arrange for the hon. in each of the last five years; to which countries; and Member for Walsall North to receive a reply from the UK Border Agency to his letter of 17 May 2012 about using what form and class of travel. [111101] a constituent, ref M7571/12. [113038] Damian Green: Deportations are a specific subset of Damian Green: The chief executive of the UK Border removals which are enforced either following a criminal Agency wrote to the hon. Gentleman on 19 June 2012. conviction or when it is judged that a person’s removal from the UK is conducive to the public good. The deportation order prohibits the person returning to the UK until such time as it may be revoked. Most illegal WOMEN AND EQUALITIES immigrants are removed under administrative or illegal entry powers from the UK rather than being deported. Civil Partnerships: Ceremonies It has therefore been assumed that the question refers to the number of enforced removals and voluntary Nadine Dorries: To ask the Minister for Women and departures from the UK as opposed to the number of Equalities whether the Government Equalities Office deportations. has conducted an analysis of the potential effects of The table placed in the House Library, shows the plans for same-sex civil marriage on the conduct of total number of removals and voluntary departures by marriage ceremonies by religious institutions; and if country of destination in each year from 2007 to 2011. she will make a statement. [112307] 1115W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1116W

Lynne Featherstone: The Government’s consultation repealed between 1 February and 31 May 2012; and if on how to enable same-sex couples to have a civil she will estimate the potential savings to those affected marriage ceremony closed on 14 June. in each case. [112985] Prior to, and during the consultation, the Government assessed the potential effects on religious institutions of Lynne Featherstone: As of 1 April 2011, the Government our proposals. Both myself and my officials have also Equalities Office has been part of the Home Office and met with a number of faith groups to hear their views. is no longer a separate Government Department. The information requested will be provided by the Minister No religious organisation will be forced to host for Immigration, my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford ceremonies for same-sex couples as a result of these (Damian Green), in response to the hon. Member’s proposals. question to the Secretary of State for the Home Conditions of Employment Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). John McDonnell: To ask the Minister for Women and Equalities (1) whether she has made an assessment of the working conditions for women in the professional modelling industry; [112835] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION (2) what assessment she has made of the extent of discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation in Theft the creative industries. [112836] Keith Vaz: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Lynne Featherstone: The Department has made no Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of assessment of (a) the working conditions for women in Commons Commission, how many thefts from the the professional modelling industry or (b) the extent of Commons part of the parliamentary estate have been discrimination on the ground of sexual orientation in reported since 22 March 2012; and what items were the creative industries. reported stolen in each case. [113129] Regulation John Thurso: The following table shows the items Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister for Women and reported as stolen from the House of Commons since Equalities how many regulations her Department has 22 March 2012:

Items reported stolen Number Note iPad 2 One subsequently found Coat and scarf 1 Wrong coat and scarf inadvertently taken by a visitor to the Public Gallery and not returned Wallet and contents 1 Property found Mobile telephone 2 — Laptop 7 — £723 cash 1 — Pre-paid envelopes 1 Arrest made and property recovered Computer equipment 1 —

CABINET OFFICE Mr Maude: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 20 June 2012, Official Report, column 1073W. Investment and Contract Readiness Fund

Ann McKechin: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Office pursuant to the answer of 11 June 2012, Official Report, column 59W, on third sector, for what reason it Families: Disadvantaged is his policy that only companies based and operating solely within England will be entitled to apply to the Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Investment and Contract Readiness Fund. [113006] Communities and Local Government on what evidential basis he has calculated that there are 120,000 families Mr Hurd: The Investment and Contract Readiness which should be eligible for the troubled families Fund covers England only. I refer the hon. Member to programme. [112555] the answer I gave on 19 June 2012, Official Report, column 924W. Robert Neill: In December 2011, all upper-tier local authorities were provided with figures on the indicative Public Sector: Pay numbers of troubled families in their area. All local authorities accepted these figures for their own area, Rachel Reeves: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet which, in aggregate, confirmed a 120,000 figure. Office whether Government Departments will be The “Troubled Families Financial Framework”, a required to publish information on those public sector copy of which is available in the Library of the House, workers earning more than £150,000 off payroll in their outlines the process for councils to draw up the list of 2012 update. [113143] families who will be part of the programme. 1117W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1118W

Local Government Finance The group is chaired by the Health Protection Agency and includes representatives from DEFRA, the Animal Hilary Benn: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency, the Communities and Local Government what the level of Department for Health, the Food Standards Agency year-end balances of local authorities was (a) in each and the devolved Administrations. The HAIRS group authority and (b) in total in 2011-12. [112455] may be able to commission new public health research, if considered appropriate, through its membership. Robert Neill [holding answer 18 June 2012]: The Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control estimated level of year-end balances across England was: Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will 2011-121 (£ billion) publish all correspondence between her Department As at 31 March and outside organisations on the badger cull. [112931] Estimated schools reserves level 1.7 Estimated other earmarked financial reserves 7.7 Mr Paice: The Department does not routinely publish level correspondence that it receives and sends as part of the Estimated unallocated financial reserves level 3.1 normal course of business; this is no exception. 1 Budget. E. coli A table has been placed in the Library of the House, showing the figures for 2011-12 end of year balances at Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for individual local authority level. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent I would note that these figures are from Revenue assessment she has made of the role of antimicrobial Account Budget returns for 2011-12 and are not necessarily usage as a factor influencing the prevalence of E. coli, directly comparative with Revenue Outturn returns. carrying extended-spectrum beta-lactamases on dairy Typically, authorities record lower figures for end of farms. [111441] year reserves in their budget returns (completed at the beginning of each financial year) than their outturn Mr Paice: A pilot research project on antimicrobial returns (completed at the end of each financial year). usage and antimicrobial resistance from dairy farms As outlined in my Department’s press notice of with and without extended spectrum beta-lactamase E. 30 November 2010, it is the view of Ministers that it is coli is due to be completed later on this year. sensible, as part of wider financial planning, for councils Eggs: Sales to consider drawing on their reserves to address short-term costs and pressures, such as necessary restructuring, and to invest now in order to realise savings in the Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for longer term. Low interest rates have significantly reduced Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment the revenues from council reserves. Councils can then her Department has made of the effect of falling sales build up their reserves again in the sunnier days to of free-range eggs on poultry farmers. [111981] come. Mr Paice: DEFRA does not collect statistics on the sales of free-range eggs. However, statistics are collected on the production of free-range eggs and these figures ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS show the production of free-range eggs has been relatively Animals: Imports stable over the last few years: UK egg packing station throughput Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Thousand cases Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will Free commission research into the potential health effects Total Intensive Barn Range Organic for the UK human population of the import of exotic 2009 [110920] pets. Q1 6,119 3,519 220 2,121 259 Q2 6,126 3,312 250 2,304 260 Mr Paice: There are already rules in place to protect Q3 6,111 3,249 287 2,331 244 public health from known risks associated with the import of animals. Specifically, there are recognised Q4 6,261 3,364 279 2,381 237 infectious risks associated with reptiles. We have been working with the Health Protection Agency to alert the 2010 public to these risks, while emphasising the importance Q1 6,498 3,386 308 2,555 249 of safe handling in reptiles and also controlling the Q2 6,686 3,348 324 2,779 235 importation of potential sources of infection of reptiles. Q3 6,920 3,406 355 2,932 226 At the present time, with diminishing budgets and other Q4 6,963 3,382 347 3,017 218 priorities there is no research under way or planned in this area. 2011 Should a new or unknown risk emerge, the Human Q1 6,854 3,343 291 3,007 212 Animal Infections and Risk Surveillance (HAIRS) group’s Q2 6,880 3,305 277 3,055 243 key responsibility is to identify and discuss emerging Q3 6,632 3,300 248 2,875 209 diseases that may post a threat to UK public health. 1119W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1120W

UK egg packing station throughput looking for reports on a handful of product groups, Thousand cases which will not include the food GBS as it is considered Free premature to report on this considering its recent Total Intensive Barn Range Organic introduction, to keep the reporting burden to a reasonable Q4 6,555 3,180 259 2,943 174 level. However, the number of product groups covered will increase year by year over the duration of these commitments. It is anticipated that reporting on compliance 2012 with the food GBS will be included next year. Q1 6,506 3,107 230 3,001 168 Gangmasters Licensing Authority Fisheries: North Sea

Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) if she will discussions she has had with the Government of Norway publish the impact assessment of her decision to make on fishing quotas in the North sea. [113070] changes to the Gangmasters Licensing Authority; [111966] Richard Benyon: I have not had direct discussions (2) what steps the Gangmasters Licensing Authority with the Government of Norway on North sea fishing will take to work with specialist law enforcement agencies quotas recently, but DEFRA officials have numerous using an intelligence-led approach to better target and contacts with Norway and attend meetings with Norway pursue suspected serious and organised crime; [111967] as part of a European delegation. Most recently, officials (3) what steps she plans to take to reduce the took part in an EU/Norway meeting in Kirkwell to administrative burden of the Gangmasters Licensing discuss long-term management plans for cod, saithe Authority licensing regime; [111968] and herring. The outcome was a request to the International Council for the Exploration of the Seas to evaluate the (4) what representations she has received on her current plans and to recommend possible improvements. decision to no longer allow the Gangmasters Licensing Authority to regulate apprenticeships, forestry, specialist Food: Exports cleaning contract companies, land agents and voluntary workers; [111969] Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for (5) when she plans to publish comprehensive proposals Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to for reform of the Gangmasters Licensing Authority. her Department’s document, Driving Export Growth [111970] in the Farming, Food and Drink Sector, how much UK food exports have increased since January 2012. [111985] Mr Paice: Proposals announced on 24 May, which will improve the way the Gangmasters Licensing Authority Mr Paice: Export figures for food, feed and drink for operates, are the result of the Government’s Red Tape the first quarter of 2012 are £4.324 billion. This compares Challenge (RTC) review of the authority. This included with £4.217 billion for the equivalent period in 2011. gaining approval from the Reducing Regulation Committee. The figures for the second quarter of 2012 are not yet An impact assessment was not required under this available. process. Detailed proposals will be published for public Food: Procurement consultation later this year, and will include impact assessments. Mary Creagh: To ask the Secretary of State for The Gangmasters Licensing Authority (GLA) already Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess works closely with a range of enforcement bodies. Our which central Government Departments are compliant proposed approach looks to build on that sound base with her Department’s Government Buying Standards by improving intelligence gathering and data sharing for food and catering services for contracts signed (a) and establishing better co-operation between the various enforcement agencies. These include the UK Human before and (b) after 1 September 2011. [111115] Trafficking Agency, the UK Borders Agency and the Mr Paice: The Government Buying Standard (GBS) Serious Organised Crime Agency and, from 2013, the for food and catering services was published in June National Crime Agency. This approach will help ensure 2011 and became mandatory for new contracts in the GLA targets suspected serious and organised crime. September 2011. Implementation of the Government In tandem with this we will look to reduce burdens Buying Standards is the responsibility of each individual imposed on compliant operators under the GLA’s licensing Government Department. Departments are seeking scheme. This includes removing the automatic requirement opportunities to introduce the food and catering service for an application inspection, and associated fee of standards into existing contracts and, as contracts come £1,850, and introducing a system of earned recognition up for renewal, these should include the Government for those applying for a licence. Combined with proposals Buying Standards. Departments are also responsible to remove from scope of the GLA low risk sectors for appropriate reporting on their adherence to the where there is no evidence of worker abuse. The GLA standards. estimates that this will result in around 150 fewer licensed Government Departments are now expected to report operators and annual savings to business of circa £360,000. on their use of Government Buying Standards under Confor, the main trade body representing businesses the Greening Government Commitments entered into in the forestry sector, has written to DEFRA Ministers in February 2011. For the first year, 2011-12, we will be supporting the proposal to exclude forestry from scope 1121W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1122W of the GLA. There have not been any other formal use and the level of antibiotic resistance in (i) poultry, representations received on the removal of low risk (ii) pigs and (iii) cattle since 2000; and what the findings sectors since the announcement on 24 May. were of this research; [111359] Livestock: Antibiotics (2) what research (a) her Department and (b) the BBSRC has funded into the use of antibiotics on organic and non-organic farms since 2000; and what Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for the findings were of this research. [111360] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what assessment she has made of trends in the levels of antibiotic resistant Mr Paice: A pilot research project on antimicrobial strains of salmonella, campylobacter, E. coli and usage and antimicrobial resistance from dairy farms Enterococci in (a) poultry, (b) pigs and (c) cattle since with and without extended spectrum beta-lactamase E. 2000; [111354] coli is due to be completed later on this year. (2) what recent evidence she has received on trends in Research on an organic broiler farm published in the level of anti-microbial resistance in E. coli; [111460] 2007 reported that in the four years prior to the study, (3) what recent assessment she has made of the antibiotics had been administered on one occasion. dissemination of plasmid-borne antibiotic resistance in This study is publishes at: food producing animals. [111442] http://aem.asm.Org/content/73/1/203.long Mr Paice: The antimicrobial susceptibility of Between 2005 and 2010, the BBRSC committed an Campylobacter, E. coli, Salmonella and Enterococci average of £1,854,000 annually to research on antimicrobial from intestinal contents of pigs and cattle after slaughter resistance. Details of this research can be found in were monitored in abattoir surveys in 2003 and the scientific journals. results were announced at a public meeting held at that Poultry: Animal Welfare time. This followed a similar survey performed in 1999-2000. During 2006-07 turkeys on farms were monitored for Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State E. coli. Later, during 2008-09, broiler chickens were for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps monitored for Campylobacter and E. coli. The results her Department is taking to prevent the import into the have been published either in scientific journals or by UK of eggs laid by illegally caged hens; and if she will the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA). make a statement. [111964] The Government contributes antimicrobial susceptibility data annually to EFSA for inclusion in the EU Summary Mr Paice: Risk based surveillance to ensure imported Report on Antimicrobial Resistance. This report is published shell eggs from other member states have been produced annually on the EFSA website and shows trends in in compliance with the conventional cage ban is continuing. susceptibility for several antimicrobials. Inspectors are conducting checks on batches of eggs on The antimicrobial susceptibility of organisms from a weekly basis at all primary importers using ultraviolet clinical diagnostic material submitted to Animal Health light analysis and by checking against member states’ Veterinary Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) Regional compliant producer lists. The UK’s full enforcement Laboratories provides further ongoing monitoring of strategy is set out in the written ministerial statement of antimicrobial susceptibility in bacteria of veterinary 6 December 2011, Official Report, columns 15-19WS. origin. Sheep: Tagging Plasmid borne antimicrobial resistance is common in bacteria in food-producing animals and has been for many years. The situation is similar in most countries. Huw Irranca-Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what progress Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for her Department has made on changes to sheep electronic Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate identification regulations. [111979] her Department has made of the (a) number of farms and (b) proportion of (i) poultry, (ii) pigs and (iii) cattle Mr Paice: In December 2011, DEFRA secured a testing positive for extended-spectrum beta-lactamase change to the EU regulations on sheep electronic resistant E. coli and salmonella; and when this information identification (EID) to delay, for three years, the requirement was last obtained. [111355] to include individual ear tag numbers on movement documents for older animals which are not required to Mr Paice: Determination of the proportions of farms be electronically identified. This change will save keepers positive for extended spectrum beta-lactamase (ESBL) between £5 million and £14.5 million. E. coli has been done for turkeys, where a survey was Further changes to the EU legislation are not anticipated performed in 2006-07. ESBL E. coli were isolated from in the near future. 5.2% of turkey meat production farms and 6.9% of turkey breeder farms. The results have been published Zoos in the scientific journal, the Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy. Similar studies have not been performed Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for in pigs or cattle. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment she has made of whether the requirements of the EC Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for zoos directive are being met in zoos in England; how Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what research many zoo closure directions under section 16 of the (a) her Department and (b) the BBSRC has funded Zoo Licensing Act 1981 have been issued since 2005; into the relationship between the level of farm antibiotic and if she will make a statement. [111261] 1123W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1124W

Mr Paice: The EC zoos directive is implemented behaviour, giving drivers the opportunity to reduce car through the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 which places insurance premiums by driving safely and responsibly. responsibility for the administration of the zoo licensing Such technology is used with the full knowledge and and inspection regime with local authorities. In response consent of the person insuring the vehicle. to concerns about how local authorities were carrying out this role, DEFRA commissioned research which Consultants found, among other things, evidence of an improving situation with respect to implementation of the Act. Jonathan Ashworth: To ask the Secretary of State for The research also noted the need for further improvement Transport what the cost was to her Department of the and DEFRA is currently updating its guidance for local use of external consultants in each of the last two authorities to assist them in carrying out their functions. years. [110616] The issue of zoo closure directions is a matter for Norman Baker: I refer my hon. Friend to my reply to individual local authorities. Records are not held centrally. the hon. Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas) Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for on Monday 11 June, Official Report, column 36W. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many zoo Merseyrail inspectors are currently employed; how many zoo inspections took (a) less than one day, (b) one day, (c) two days and (d) three or more days in each of the last Alison McGovern: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport if she will take steps to ensure that sufficient five years; and if she will make a statement. [111262] electric rolling stock is available to operate newly Mr Paice: The Animal Health and Veterinary electrified routes in the Merseyside area from 2014 Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) maintain a list of zoo onwards. [112281] inspectors appointed by the Secretary of State. There are currently 34 inspectors on the list. Inspectors are Mrs Villiers: The choice of rolling stock is generally a not employed by AHVLA or DEFRA but carry out or matter for the relevant train operator, with Government assist with certain inspections for the relevant local involvement primarily focused on where the taxpayer’s authority. interest needs to be protected. Information on the duration of inspections is not Motor Vehicles: Insurance held centrally. However, these details may be available from individual local authorities. Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the average cost of car insurance was in TRANSPORT each of the last five years. [109676] Birmingham Cross-City Railway Line Mike Penning: The average cost of car motor insurance premiums for each of the last five years can be considered Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for in two different ways. Data from the AA’s “shoparound” Transport pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member survey shows the average development in quotes for for Garston and Halewood of 14 June 2012, Official annual comprehensive car insurance policies. Data from Report, column 533W,on railway stations, what discussions the ABI shows the average premium actually paid, she (a) has had and (b) plans to have with (i) Network based on a sample of insurance companies. Rail, (ii) London Midland and (iii) Centro on passenger safety, comfort and service on the Birmingham Cross £ City Line. [113063] Source 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011

Mrs Villiers: Ministers meet with Network Rail, passenger Automobile 463 503 569 792 921 transport executives and train operating companies on Association a regular basis to discuss a wide range of issues. (AA) However, no meetings have been held, or are planned (October 2011) to be held, to discuss specifically the Birmingham Cross Association of 352 348 340 390 1— City Line. British Cars: Insurance Insurers (ABI) (annual Jim Shannon: To ask the Secretary of State for data) Transport what recent discussions she has had on the 1 Not yet available. Note: The AA figures do not fully take into account the price of the use of spy technology in the car to track drivers and policy finally agreed; and renewals of existing policies may be cheaper reduce insurance costs. [112214] than quotes for new policies.

Mike Penning: The Secretary of State has not had Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for any discussions on the use of “spy” technology in cars. Transport what information her Department holds on On 2 May the Secretary of State for Transport, my the average increase in annual car insurance premiums right hon. Friend the Member for Putney (Justine Greening) in (a) 2010, (b) 2011 and (c) 2012 to date. [110579] hosted a cross-Government summit with the insurance industry on measures to reduce the cost of premiums. Mike Penning [holding answer 11 June 2012]: I refer One measure, especially for young drivers, which the the hon. Member to my answer given today to my hon. insurance industry is introducing, is the use of telematics Friend the Member for Pendle (Andrew Stephenson) or “smartbox” technology which monitors driving UIN 109676. 1125W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1126W

Regulation These sums relate to the values associated with the introduction of the instrument containing the revocations. Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible, except at disproportionate cost, to Transport how many regulations her Department has provide savings attributable solely to the revocations, in repealed between 1 February and 31 May 2012; and if particular because of the further analysis that would be she will estimate the potential savings to those affected required. in each case. [112983] Where no benefit figure is given, this is because no Impact Assessment was produced for the instrument Norman Baker: Ten statutory instruments were revoked containing the revocation. Where given in the Explanatory between 1 February and 31 May 2012. These are listed Note to the instrument, the reason for not producing an in the table below. Impact Assessment is provided in the table below. In the Where an Impact Assessment has been prepared for case of the Dunham Bridge order, it has not been the the instrument that contained the revocation, the best practice of the Department to produce Impact Assessments estimate of the total benefit to those affected and the for orders of this type that change toll levels. best estimate of the total net present value are given.

Best estimate of Best estimate total benefit total net present Statutory Date of (present value) value based on Reason given for Instrument Statutory coming into based on Impact Impact no Impact containing the Instrument(s) force of Assessment Assessment Assessment where revocation SI Number Made on revoked revocation £ million £ million applicable

The Street Works 2012/425 20 February The Street Works 14 March £532.7 over a £441.5 over a (Charges for 2012 (Charges for 2012 period of six period of six Occupation of the Occupation of the years years Highway) Highway) (England) (England) Regulations 2012 Regulations 2001 SI 2001/4060 The Humber Bridge 2012/716 5 March The Humber Bridge 1 April 2012 There was no (Debts) Order 2012 2012 (Debts) Order 2011 anticipated impact SI 2011/1718 on the private or voluntary sectors. The Policing of 2012/837 13 March The Policing of 16 April 2012 No additional Aerodromes 2012 Aerodromes impact on the (Belfast (Belfast costs to business, International International the public sector, Airport) Order Airport) Order civil society 2012 2011 SI 2010/575 organisations, regulators or consumers to that set out in the final impact assessment on Airport Policing, Funding and Security Planning was foreseen. The Dunham 2012/852 15 March The Dunham 30 March Bridge (Revision of 2012 Bridge (Revision of 2012 Tolls) Order 2012 Tolls) Order 2007 SI 2007/1455 The Bus Lane 2012/846 21 March The Road Traffic 16 April 2012 No impact on the Contraventions 2012 (Permitted Parking private or (Approved Local Area and Special voluntary sectors Authorities) Parking Area) (City was foreseen. (England) of Derby) Order (Amendment) and 2006 SI 2006/1445 Civil Enforcement of Parking Contravention s Designation Order 2012 The Road Traffic (Permitted Parking Area and Special Parking Area) (Metropolitan Borough of Solihull) Order 2007 SI 2007/2535 The Civil Aviation 2012/1017 2 April 2012 The Civil Aviation 30 April 2012 £149.7 over a £6.2overa (Air Travel (Air Travel period of ten period of ten Organisers’ Organisers’ years years Licensing) Licensing) Regulations 2012 Regulations 1995 SI 1995/1054 1127W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1128W

Best estimate of Best estimate total benefit total net present Statutory Date of (present value) value based on Reason given for Instrument Statutory coming into based on Impact Impact no Impact containing the Instrument(s) force of Assessment Assessment Assessment where revocation SI Number Made on revoked revocation £ million £ million applicable

The Civil Aviation (Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1996 SI 1996/1390 The Civil Aviation (Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing) (Second Amendment) Regulations 1997 SI 1997/2912 The Civil Aviation (Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 2003 SI 2003/1741 (also revoked by SI 2012/1017 was regulation 19 of the Civil Aviation (Contributions to the Air Travel Trust) Regulations 2007)

Temporary local highways and flying orders were not (2) what discussions (a) she, (b) Ministers in her considered for the purposes of answering this question. Department and (c) officials in her Department have This is because they could only have been considered at had with Scottish Government Ministers or officials on disproportionate cost. From 1 January 2012 to 31 May the consequences of Scotland leaving the UK. [112641] 2012 the Department made 835 Statutory Instruments of which 791 were temporary local highways or flying Norman Baker: There has been no correspondence or orders. discussions on the consequences of Scotland leaving the United Kingdom between Ministers and officials in the Department and Scottish Government Ministers or Rescue Services: Scotland officials. The Coalition Government’s position is clear. Scotland Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport is stronger as part of the UK and the UK is stronger if she will take steps to ensure that the remaining with Scotland in it. The Government is not making coastguard stations in Scotland are able to cope effectively plans for independence as we are confident that people with emergency situations. [113071] in Scotland will continue to support the United Kingdom in any referendum. Mike Penning: The new rescue coordination arrangements will deliver a more resilient, nationally- networked service with a national Maritime Operations Centre at its heart, allowing better management of INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT peaks and troughs of demand. Developing Countries: Human Rights Robust testing will be carried out prior to the closure of both Forth and Clyde Maritime Rescue Co-ordination Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for International Centres to ensure that the Maritime and Coastguard Development when he decided that all his Department’s Agency is able to maintain at least the same quality of country programmes would include a short human search and rescue service as at present. rights assessment as part of the annual review of country operational plans; and for what reason such assessments have been introduced. [112747] Sovereignty: Scotland Mr Duncan: The decision for all DFID’s priority Margaret Curran: To ask the Secretary of State for country programmes to include a human rights assessment Transport (1) what correspondence (a) she, (b) Ministers was taken in December 2011, as part of DFID’s ongoing in her Department and (c) officials in her Department efforts to strengthen our approach to human rights. have had with the Scottish Government on the consequences Introduction of short human rights assessments supports of Scotland leaving the UK; and if she will place any the Department’s policy on budget support and such correspondence in the Library; [112631] conditionality, revised in June 2011. This policy includes 1129W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1130W respect for human rights as one of the four partnership Mr Duncan: DFID provides support for polio eradication principles that DFID applies in deciding whether or not through the UK’s annual contribution to the Global to provide budget support. Polio Eradication Initiative (GPEI) which the World Health Organisation hosts in Geneva. The GPEI prioritises Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for International the allocation of the funding according to need. I have Development who he intends to consult in preparing held no discussions recently with ministerial colleagues human rights assessments in conjunction with annual on the issue of polio eradication. reviews of his Department’s country operations plans; Pakistan if he will consult national and international human rights organisations in the preparation of such assessments; Lindsay Roy: To ask the Secretary of State for and what discussions he plans to have with the Secretary International Development if he will take steps to of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on the ensure that aid to the government of Pakistan is used participation of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to support development projects and cannot be used to in the preparation of such assessments. [112748] support terrorist activities. [113072] Mr Duncan: DFID country offices are encouraged to Mr Andrew Mitchell: All UK aid to the Government draw on a range of sources in preparing human rights of Pakistan is earmarked to deliver specific outcomes to assessments as part of their annual review of country help the poorest and most vulnerable people and is operational plans. This includes drawing on existing subject to numerous safeguards. The Department for analysis and data, from national governments as well as International Development (DFID) has put in place local and international human rights organisations. rigorous monitoring, verification and fiduciary risk DFID human rights assessments are being prepared assessments, including through independent verification. in close collaboration with the Foreign and Commonwealth These systems help to ensure that UK aid reaches its Office (FCO), in particular in the countries that are of intended recipients, secures value for money and delivers particular concern to the UK Government. tangible results. Sri Lanka Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development if he will make it his policy Dr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for International to set down benchmarks on human rights in his Development what assistance his Department is providing Department’s country operational plans. [112753] to the Government of Sri Lanka to extend clean water and sanitation to the whole of the population of that Mr Duncan: From September 2012, country operational country. [113289] plans will include a human rights assessment which will highlight the key human rights issues in each country, a Mr Duncan: DFID has no bilateral programme in Sri judgment on the overall trajectory of the human rights Lanka. environment, and the implications for DFID programmes. The assessments will not explicitly set down benchmarks. DFID does however consider respect for human rights TREASURY as one of the four partnership principles that are applied Capital Allowances when assessing budget support to a government. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for International if he will consider the use of enhanced capital allowances Development when human rights assessments prepared to support investment in petroleum refineries. [113009] in conjunction with annual reviews of his Department’s country operational plans will be published; and whether Miss Chloe Smith: All businesses, including petroleum such assessments will be discussed with the Government refineries, are entitled to claim capital allowances on of each country. [112871] their plant and machinery expenditure at rates of writing- down allowances which broadly align with commercial Mr Duncan: All DFID country offices have been depreciation. required to draw up human rights assessments as part Monetary Policy of their annual review of country, operational plans. These assessments will be published by September 2012. Steve Baker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer We expect some DFID country offices to consult and pursuant to his answer of 23 November 2010, Official share their assessments with the governments, and other Report, column 275W,on monetary policy, what assessment key actors, prior to publication, although it is for country he has made of the lag between an intervention in the offices to use their discretion on how they handle the market for loanable funds and its effect on the economy. process. [112993] Miss Chloe Smith: The independent Bank of England’s Developing Countries: Polio research, notably ‘The transmission mechanism of monetary policy’, 1999, finds that on average it takes about one Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State year for the response to a change in the official interest for International Development what (a) programmes rate to have its peak effect on demand and production, his Department supports and (b) recent discussions he and that it takes up to a further year for these activity has had with his ministerial colleagues on the global changes to have their fullest impact on the inflation eradication of polio. [112882] rate. 1131W Written Answers21 JUNE 2012 Written Answers 1132W

Members of the independent Monetary Policy The Bank of England estimates in its September Committee of the Bank have noted the lags for the 2011 Quarterly Bulletin that the first round of QE, transmission of quantitative easing (QE) policy to be of conducted between March 2009 and January 2012, the same order of magnitude, or possibly longer, compared raised UK inflation by around 0.75% to 1.50% and to normal interest rate cuts. increased real GDP by around 1.50% to 2.0%

WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Thursday 21 June 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 61WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Employment Law...... 61WS continued European Court of Justice (Appointment of New ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 64WS Judges and Advocates-General) ...... 66WS Energy Council ...... 64WS TREASURY ...... 62WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Charitable Giving...... 62WS AFFAIRS...... 65WS ECOFIN...... 62WS New Bovine TB Eradication Advisory Group Statutory Residence Test and Reforms to for England...... 65WS Ordinary Residence...... 64WS FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 66WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 68WS Britain’s Diplomatic Network (Latin America Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer and the Caribbean) ...... 67WS Affairs Council (Agenda)...... 68WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Thursday 21 June 2012

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1104W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— Credit Reference Agencies: Telephone Services...... 1104W continued Electronic Cigarettes: Trading Standards ...... 1104W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 1118W Regulation ...... 1104W E. coli...... 1118W Eggs: Sales ...... 1118W CABINET OFFICE...... 1115W Fisheries: North Sea...... 1119W Investment and Contract Readiness Fund ...... 1115W Food: Exports ...... 1119W Public Sector: Pay ...... 1115W Food: Procurement ...... 1119W Gangmasters Licensing Authority...... 1120W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 1116W Livestock: Antibiotics ...... 1121W Families: Disadvantaged ...... 1116W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 1122W Local Government Finance ...... 1117W Sheep: Tagging...... 1122W Zoos...... 1122W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 1087W Freeview Service: Northern Ireland...... 1087W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 1093W Leveson Inquiry ...... 1088W Afghanistan ...... 1093W Music: Grants ...... 1088W Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 1094W Pay...... 1087W Nepal: Tibet...... 1094W Public Libraries...... 1089W Radio Frequencies ...... 1089W HEALTH...... 1105W Brain Cancer...... 1105W DEFENCE...... 1083W Cancer ...... 1105W AgustaWestland...... 1083W Defibrillators: Schools ...... 1105W Amphibious Vehicles...... 1083W Guy’s and St Thomas NHS Foundation Trust: Armed Forces: Housing ...... 1084W Pharmacy...... 1106W Chemring Group...... 1084W Health Services ...... 1106W Defence: Cryptography ...... 1085W Health Services: Reciprocal Arrangements ...... 1106W Defence Equipment: Scotland...... 1084W Mobile Phones: Health Hazards ...... 1108W Defence: Procurement...... 1085W NHS: Privatisation...... 1109W Hercules Aircraft ...... 1086W Patients: Transport...... 1109W Military Aircraft ...... 1086W Shipping...... 1087W Sovereignty: Scotland...... 1087W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1111W Animal Experiments ...... 1111W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1090W Castes ...... 1112W Diesel Fuel...... 1090W Criminal Records: EU Action...... 1113W Energy: Conservation...... 1090W Deportation ...... 1113W Energy Supply...... 1090W DNA: Databases...... 1114W Green Deal Scheme...... 1091W Members: Correspondence ...... 1114W Oil...... 1091W Publications ...... 1092W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 1116W Wind Power ...... 1092W Theft ...... 1116W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1128W AFFAIRS...... 1117W Developing Countries: Human Rights ...... 1128W Animals: Imports...... 1117W Developing Countries: Polio ...... 1129W Col. No. Col. No. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT—continued TRANSPORT—continued Pakistan ...... 1130W Sovereignty: Scotland...... 1127W Sri Lanka ...... 1130W TREASURY ...... 1130W JUSTICE...... 1110W Capital Allowances ...... 1130W Community Orders ...... 1110W Monetary Policy ...... 1130W Members: Correspondence ...... 1110W Prisoners: Females ...... 1110W WALES...... 1083W Prisons: Shops...... 1110W Regulation ...... 1083W Suicide ...... 1111W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 1114W Civil Partnerships: Ceremonies ...... 1114W SCOTLAND...... 1083W Conditions of Employment...... 1115W Regulation ...... 1083W Regulation ...... 1115W TRANSPORT ...... 1123W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1095W Birmingham Cross-City Railway Line ...... 1123W Employment and Support Allowance ...... 1095W Cars: Insurance...... 1123W Jobcentre Plus: : Hearing Impairment...... 1096W Consultants...... 1124W Members: Correspondence ...... 1096W Merseyrail...... 1124W Pensioners: Income ...... 1097W Motor Vehicles: Insurance ...... 1124W Regulation ...... 1101W Regulation ...... 1125W Social Security Benefits...... 1103W Rescue Services: Scotland ...... 1127W Work Capability Assessment...... 1103W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

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CONTENTS

Thursday 21 June 2012

Small Charitable Donations [Col. 1001] Bill presented, and read the First time

Backbench Business British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly [Col. 1002] Motion—(Mr Laurence Robertson)—agreed to

Secondary Education [Col. 1025] Answer to urgent question—(Michael Gove)

Business of the House [Col. 1036] Statement—(Sir George Young)

Backbench Business Interest Rate Swap Products [Col. 1047] Motion—(Guto Bebb)—agreed to

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 61WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 1083W] [see index inside back page]