Monday Volume 532 12 September 2011 No. 198

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Monday 12 September 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 735 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 736

Rachel Reeves: With savage cuts to West Yorkshire House of Commons police, including 750 fewer police officers and up to 1,500 fewer support staff, how does the Home Secretary Monday 12 September 2011 think that tackling burglary in Leeds will be improved over the next few years?

The House met at half-past Two o’clock Mrs May: In relation to policing, we are ensuring not only that police have the tools and powers that they need to deal with issues out on the street, but that they PRAYERS are freed up from a lot of the bureaucracy that was introduced by the previous Government, which kept [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] too many police officers behind desks and not out on the streets.

Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Will my Oral Answers to Questions right hon. Friend assure me that she will not be seduced by the argument that, inevitably, more police officers means more visibility? The fact remains that there are more police on patrol on Monday morning than on HOME DEPARTMENT Friday night, and that only 12% of officers are available at any one time to be visible to the British public. Will The Secretary of State was asked— she tell the House what she will do to ensure that we get visibility from existing police numbers? Police Numbers Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for his comments, 1. Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab): What estimate and he is absolutely right. He has put particular focus she has made of the change in the number of police on this issue over the years and has looked into it in officers during the comprehensive spending review some detail. It is not just a question of numbers, as it is period. [70925] often portrayed by Opposition Members; it is about how police officers are deployed. It is about getting 13. Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): What her them out on the streets at the time that they are most policy is on the future size of the police officer work needed. As my hon. Friend has seen in the past, a lot of force. [70938] that is about reducing the bureaucracy that police officers deal with, reducing the targets, and letting them get out The Secretary of State for the Home Department there on the streets. (Mrs Theresa May): With permission, may I briefly update the House in relation to the appointment of the Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): Is the Home new Metropolitan Police Commissioner? The Mayor of Secretary aware that, in Northamptonshire, the chief London and I conducted interviews with the candidates constable is transferring police officers from the back this morning, and I expect to make a recommendation office to the front line; that the visibility of police on to the palace later today. patrol will go up; and that crime is falling? We have set a challenging but manageable funding settlement for the police service. It is a matter for the Mrs May: I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Indeed, I chief constable and the police authority in each force to had a very good visit to Northampton recently and saw determine the number of police officers that are deployed some of the excellent work being done by the police within the available resource. there. I heard directly from the chief constable what he is doing to ensure, as my hon. Friend says, that he cuts Nick Smith: May I thank the Secretary of State for back-office work for police officers and gets them out her response? Will she congratulate Gwent police authority, on the streets, which results in the impact that the public which was recently assessed by inspectors as performing want—they want to see people out on their streets. well? Can she explain why more than £100 million will be spent on elected police commissioners, given that Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): May I welcome the there is no guarantee that such performance will be fact that the Home Secretary and the Mayor of London sustained, let alone improved, with them? Would not have agreed on their choices for the name of the next the money be better spent on keeping more police on Metropolitan Police Commissioner? our streets? When the CSR was agreed, there were no disorders in London, but the acting commissioner has said that the Mrs May: If the hon. Gentleman is going to ask thin blue line was very thin during the recent disorders. questions like that, he really should get his figures right, If a case is made for additional resources as a result of because of course, the figure to be spent on police and the various inquiries that are being conducted, will the crime commissioners is not £100 million. I am happy to Home Secretary revisit those figures? join him in congratulating Gwent police. I had a very good meeting the other day with the chief constable of Mrs May: If I may say to the right hon. Gentleman, Gwent police, who is the Association of Chief Police I expect to be having a further conversation with the Officers lead on matters relating to domestic violence. Mayor after Home Office questions, but I hope to be He talked about some of the excellent work that Gwent sending a recommendation to the palace, and I firmly police had done on that. expect to do so, later today. 737 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 738

In relation to the funding figures for the Metropolitan and as we have made clear, the Home Office will be police, the right hon. Gentleman will know full well that making funds available in relation to the matters that we are providing support to it, and indeed to other the right hon. Lady has raised. forces, as a result of the riots that took place recently. However, I am pleased to say that the previous Metropolitan Police Commissioner was able to increase visibility with Police Panels police on the streets within the resources he had, by the simple and effective method of moving from police patrolling in pairs to single-patrol policing. 2. George Eustice (Camborne and Redruth) (Con): Whether she has considered bringing forward amendments to the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill to Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) ensure that proposed police panels are representative of (Lab): It is intriguing to discover that the Home Secretary the geographical area they will serve. [70926] and the Mayor have not yet agreed on the next Metropolitan Police Commissioner. The previous question was about the comprehensive The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick spending review. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary Herbert): The Government have set out plans to ensure estimated that 16,000 officers will be cut as a result of that police and crime panels are representative of the the CSR. Since then, the police have faced substantial places they serve. We tabled an amendment to the Bill in additional costs of £125 million from policing the August another place, allowing many panels to co-opt further riots. The Home Secretary has said that she is supporting members. This will enable local authorities to address the Met police and other forces, but the Minister for geographical imbalances. Policing and Criminal Justice said in his letter that this will be only George Eustice: I thank the Minister for that response “where forces are not in a position to cover the costs of recent and welcome the amendment, which is obviously a step events themselves”. in the right direction. However, he will be aware of the That leaves the police with no clarity at a time when particular concerns of people in Cornwall that they their budgets are already being cut. Will she therefore might not get a fair geographic representation. What now guarantee that no police force will have to cut any additional reassurance can he give that the Home Secretary officers or services to pay for policing the riots and will will ensure that Cornwall is fairly represented on Devon she stand by the Prime Minister’s commitment to pay and Cornwall police panel, and will he agree to meet a this extra money to the police? delegation from Cornwall council to discuss this issue?

Mrs May: It is absolutely clear—and has been made Nick Herbert: I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns— clear to police forces affected by the riots—that police they have been put to me by other hon. Friends. The forces should put in claims to the Home Office and that amendment that we moved in the other place will allow we will look at them. We will be looking at claims for for the nomination of an additional five members to the operational costs and riot damage costs. On the right panel. Approval for that will lie with the Secretary of hon. Lady’s first statement, however, I do not think that State, although there must be regard to geographical she should try to transpose on to this Government the balance. I hope and believe therefore that we can reassure sort of disputes that took place within the previous the people of Cornwall that they will be properly represented Government. As I understand, from reading the recent on these panels. book by the former Chancellor, the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), she even disputed Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): The Minister the extent of the deficit—as she and other Labour will agree on what lies at the heart and success of British Members appear still to do. policing—it should be by consent, local and rooted in the community. That is why I welcome what he has just Yvette Cooper: I am afraid that the Home Secretary said. Will he also agree, however, that it is vital that our did not answer the question. She said that the Home senior police officers have spent a year or two on the Office is “looking” at the claims. That provides no beat in the local community? Will he hit on the head certainty for the police or clarity for police budgets. these ludicrous press reports that the Government are Police officers are having to make decisions right now thinking of bringing in an elite group of officers—super- about making people redundant. The truth is that she is duper graduates, Bullingdon club boys—to be slotted in happy to find extra resources for elected police chiefs, straight away to run our police services? Policing should but she will not find the extra money for the police. She be local, and every chief constable should have served is spending more than £100 million on elected police on the beat. chiefs that no one wants when she could spend the same money on the costs of policing the riots or on 3,000 extra Nick Herbert: That is a travesty of the Government’s constables in Olympics year. Does she think that the position. We have asked Tom Winsor to consider these public would prefer the money to be spent on elected matters. The right hon. Gentleman should pay more police chiefs or on constables who will cut crime? attention to the views of the chief constable of Devon and Cornwall, which he expressed in an article in The Mrs May: I think that the public want a Government Times today, co-written by me. He points out that the who actually look after taxpayers’ money, which is police have not made sufficient progress on diversity exactly what we will do. The police forces know that and that one way to address that might be to consider there is a process by which they can put in claims to the additional points of entry. We also point out that Home Office. Those claims will be properly considered, operational experience would be necessary. 739 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 740

Bogus Colleges The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): As part of our fundamental reforms to the student visa 3. David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con): regime, we are tightening the system of educational What recent progress she has made in tackling bogus oversight for institutions that bring international students colleges. [70927] to the UK. Colleges must have a satisfactory review by the end of 2012 in order to sponsor new students from The Secretary of State for the Home Department overseas. That will have an impact on colleges that do (Mrs Theresa May): Since May 2010, the UK Border not meet the high standards set by the inspection bodies. Agency has revoked the sponsor licence of 69 institutions. Our recent reforms of the student route include the Chi Onwurah: I recently visited International House introduction of new oversight provisions and a requirement in my constituency, where students from around the for all sponsors to become highly trusted. world acquire an understanding not only of the English language but of Newcastle’s rich cultural heritage. However, David Morris: In addition to the Government’s new the school faces a sharp drop in applications because of reforms of the student route, what enforcement action the changes, and in addition a 1,500% increase in the have the Government taken to tackle abuse in the cost of accreditation. In these difficult times, should the student visa system? Minister not be supporting legitimate schools and not trying to drive them underground? Mrs May: The UK Border Agency has been active in relation to the new rules that have been introduced and is looking at a number of colleges. In addition to the Damian Green: Let me deal directly with the hon. licences of 69 colleges and education providers being Lady’s question about accreditation. The previous system revoked, the total number whose licences have been failed. It was not rigorous enough, so we are moving to suspended—of which that 69 forms part—is 145. We more rigorous inspections, carried out by bodies that take very seriously the need to monitor the obligations have previously inspected the sector, including the that we have set out. Independent Schools Inspectorate. It is vital that we get the inspection of colleges right; otherwise, respectable Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab): Has institutions that deserve to be able to carry on get net migration increased or decreased over the last muddled up with the bogus colleges to which my right 12 months? hon. Friend the Home Secretary has referred, and that does nobody any good—neither the respectable colleges Mr Speaker: Order. I gently remind the Home Secretary nor genuine students seeking to come here. I hope that that her answer should be pertinent in the context of the hon. Lady would welcome the fact that we have tackling bogus colleges. introduced a better and more rigorous inspection system.

Mrs May: The most up-to-date figures do not cover Family Migration the last 12 months. What we saw as a result of the last Labour Government’s policies was net migration going up. Dealing with bogus colleges and education providers 5. Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con): What is part of our way of bringing it down. steps she is taking to prevent abuse of the family migration route into the UK. [70929] Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): The Government must, of course, tackle bogus colleges, but 7. Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): What steps also minimise the impact of their plans on private she is taking to prevent abuse of the family migration organisations such as the Organisation for Tourism and route into the UK. [70932] Hospitality Management, which is based in my constituency. It cannot now provide work experience to students—often The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): The they are from the US—even though it has a good record Government launched a consultation on family migration of students returning at the end of their studies. on 13 July. This sets out proposals for tackling abuse of the family route, including sham and forced marriages. Mrs May: I thank my right hon. Friend for raising a It also contains proposals to promote integration and specific case, which we will look at. We are very careful reduce burdens on the taxpayer. in the rules that we introduce. My hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration and I spend a lot of time Jason McCartney: Does the Minister agree that family listening to individual colleges and to representative migration must be based on a real and continuing bodies of colleges and education providers to ensure relationship and not on a marriage of convenience or a that we get it right. We want to ensure that people get a forced marriage? proper education when they are here. That is what our rules are focused on, but I would be happy to look at the case that my right hon. Friend has raised. Damian Green: That is an important point, because sham marriages not only undermine our immigration Student Visas (English Language Teaching) system; they damage the institution of marriage. Forced marriage is, if anything, even worse. It represents a 4. Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab): breach of human rights, and it is a form of violence What recent assessment she has made of the potential against the victim. That is why we are proposing in our effects on English language teaching centres of changes consultation to define more clearly what constitutes a to the Tier 4 (General) Student visa accreditation genuine and continuing marriage for the purposes of scheme. [70928] the immigration rules, to help to identify sham and 741 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 742 forced marriages. We are also exploring the case for The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick making sham a lawful impediment to marriage in England Herbert): With permission, Mr Speaker, I will take this and Wales. question together with question 10 on the Order Paper.

Graham Evans: Does the Minister agree that British Mr Speaker: Order. If I am mistaken, I shall be citizens who cannot support their foreign partners should happy to acknowledge it, but I thought that the Minister not expect the British taxpayer to do it for them? wished to group this question with questions 9 and 18.

Damian Green: My hon. Friend makes another good Nick Herbert: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am happy to point. Part of our consultation involves ensuring that group it with question 18 as well, if that is acceptable. those who arrive here to get married come into a family [HON.MEMBERS: “And 9, not 10.”] I said 10, then I that has sufficient means to support them. One of the realised that it has been moved to 9 because of a problems that we inherited was the fact that the institution withdrawal. I apologise. of marriage was being exploited to circumvent the immigration rules. In tightening up on this, we are not 9. Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) only restoring confidence in the immigration system but (Con): What assessment she has made of the scope for helping to bolster the institution of marriage. Both of increasing efficiency within police forces. [70934] those are extremely worthwhile efforts. 18. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What assessment Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): But is it not right she has made of the scope for increasing efficiency that husbands and wives should be able to live together? within police forces. [70944] Will the Minister assure me that spouses applying in countries with very few English language testing centres Nick Herbert: The Government are clear that police will not be kept apart from their spouses in this country should be focusing on police work and not paperwork. simply because they cannot prove their competence in Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary’s report has English? That is illustrated by the case of the wife of a shown how forces could save £1.15 billion, and there is constituent of mine who has been applying in Brazil for scope for even greater savings. months to prove that she can speak sufficiently good English to join him here. Stephen Barclay: Cambridgeshire police currently have one inspector for every three sergeants, and one chief Damian Green: If the hon. Lady wishes to write to me inspector or more senior grade officer for every inspector. about that individual case, I will take a look at it. We Will my right hon. Friend join me in welcoming the have established a network of testing stations around chief constable’s streamlining of senior officer grades in the world so that people are able to take the test. I hope order to recruit an extra 50 officers in addition to the that she will support the concept that, if people come to existing head count? Will he place a copy of the relevant settle here, they should be able to speak English at a information in the Library to allow us to benchmark basic level so that they can integrate into British life. If the number of officers at each grade in each force? they cannot do that, they can end up leading separate lives, which can cause many problems, especially in our Nick Herbert: My hon. Friend makes a good point. It inner cities. is important that these kinds of overheads are reduced so as to protect the front line. I note that HMIC’s recent Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): Does the Minister share report also congratulated the chief constable and the my concern that refugee family reunion has been classified authority on committing to a strategic alliance with the as immigration for the purposes of legal aid? Given that Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire constabularies. That is refugees are in exile and have no option but to be exactly the kind of partnership that can help to drive reunited with their families through the legal system savings and protect front-line services. here, will he make representations to the Ministry of Justice on this important point? Mr Cox: Does my right hon. Friend agree that the unique office of constable is one that should be jealously Damian Green: The hon. Lady makes an important safeguarded? Will he reassure me that in the drive for point. I assume that she is talking about refugees who efficiency and in the implementation of the Winsor have already been all the way through the system. report, we will not throw the baby out with the bathwater? Obviously, while people are applying for asylum or for refugee status, our checks have to be more robust than Nick Herbert: I agree with my hon. and learned they have been in the past so that we can be absolutely Friend about the importance of the office of constable sure that those who benefit from refugee status are and the independence that it preserves. He will know those who need Britain’s protection, which we have that the Winsor report, whose recommendations are always traditionally given and are happy to give. I will currently being discussed, also recognised the importance look into the details of the case that she has raised. of the office of constable.

Efficiency (Police Forces) Tony Baldry: For most of our constituents, efficiency is associated with visibility. Will my right hon. Friend 6. Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con): take the opportunity to commend Sergeant Adrian What estimate her Department has made of the Thomas and PC Paul Froggatt who last week ran a mile potential for savings to the public purse through and a half and, without regard to their own safety, back-office efficiencies within police forces. [70931] jumped into the Banbury canal to rescue a 71-year-old 743 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 744 lady who had slipped into it? With that sort of visibility Nick Herbert: First, I should say that what the hon. evident within the Thames valley, it must be possible to Gentleman mentioned at the outset shows that I need a have it in every other part of the country. better pair of glasses. As to his question, he always mentions the number of officers in back-office positions— Nick Herbert: I am happy to join my hon. Friend in the fact that there are thousands of them will, I think, paying tribute to the police officers for their acts of surprise the House—but he never mentions the number bravery. I am sure the whole House would agree that in middle-office positions, of which there is a considerable many such acts of bravery on the part of our police number, and they are not on the front line. I repeat that officers and our police community support officers are well over 20,000 officers are not on the front line, with going on every day. We see that reflected each year in 16,000 of them in the middle office. Savings can be the police bravery awards. I believe that many of us are driven while protecting front-line services—something humbled by the selflessness and heroism of our police that Opposition Members neither understand nor accept. officers. Health and Safety Regulation (Police) Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab): Given that the previous Labour Government planned efficiencies of 8. Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North) (Con): about £1.3 billion—including on back-office staff, on What steps she is taking to reduce the burden of health procurement, on mergers such as the one between and safety regulation on police officers. [70933] Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire, on overtime and on officer deployment—will the Minister be clear about The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick where the extra £1 billion he proposes is going to come Herbert): We have worked with the Association of Chief from, if not from officer numbers like the 200 losing Police Officers, the Crown Prosecution Service and the their jobs in north Wales? Health and Safety Executive to publish new guidance, in order to support police officers to do the right thing by taking a common-sense approach to health and Nick Herbert: First, I note that the right hon. Gentleman safety rules. confirms that the Labour party is committed to reducing spending on police forces by more than £1 billion—but, Mark Lancaster: As we have heard from my hon. of course, they did not deliver those savings when they Friend the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), some were in government; it cannot be done without reducing jobs are dangerous, and being a police officer is certainly the work force. We have identified additional savings, one of them. As a bomb disposal officer, I have some including those that will accrue from pay restraint, and empathy with a police officer who told me recently that indeed the £350 million a year that will accrue from by the time he has filled out the mountain of paperwork better procurement of goods and services. In fact, the required for health and safety, all he has done is delay total savings are well over £2 billion a year. the point at which he gets on the street to do his dangerous job. Although I commend the Government Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does on tackling this area, can we not do a bit more? the Minister welcome the news from Birmingham that officers are being taken off the street to answer the Nick Herbert: Working with police forces, we continue phone and deal with other administrative tasks? Is that to attack bureaucracy. I pay tribute to the work of the the kind of efficiency that the Government are striving chief constable of the West Midlands, Chris Sims, who for? drives these efforts by leading our reducing bureaucracy programme board. We have identified that 2.5 million Nick Herbert: The hon. Gentleman should know police hours could be saved through improvements to that, in police forces generally, a third of human resources form filling and other means of reducing bureaucracy. are not on the front line. Well over 20,000 police officers In addition to those substantial savings, we have already are in back and middle-office positions, with a higher announced savings in relation to reducing the burden of than average proportion of them in the West Midlands the stop-and-account form, and scrapping the stop constabulary. It should be possible to drive savings form, saving another 800,000 police hours a year. while still protecting the front line. That is what we ask and expect chief constables to do. Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): May I inform the Minister that on my regular visits to Huddersfield police station, John Robins, the chief Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): Given the Minister’s superintendent, has never mentioned a problem of health numbering problems at the outset of these questions, he and safety, but he is worried about the glib talk about probably now recognises the importance of having a getting rid of back-office functions, such as the crucial good back office. intelligence unit, without which police on the beat would I have read again a copy of the HMIC report, not know where to go and what to tackle? “Demanding Times”, which was published in June 2011. He will know that a table on page 4 states that only Nick Herbert: We are clear that intelligence functions 5% of police officers and PCSOs perform back-office are part of the front line. However, as I keep trying to functions, many of them necessary. With more than point out to hon. Members, a third of all those employed 16,000 police officers to be cut during the next few years in police forces, and all the resources they command, of the spending review, does this not show what we are not on the front line. It is, therefore, possible to drive already know—that there is and will be an impact on savings without damaging or affecting the kinds of the front line from these cuts, with the loss of uniformed services to which the hon. Gentleman refers. Those are and neighbourhood officers and detectives? the questions that he should be asking of his local force. 745 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 746

Immigration contributed significantly to it socially, culturally and economically are people who study at Christian theological 10. Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): colleges and Bible colleges in the United Kingdom, but What progress the Government has made in reducing they currently face a very difficult time because of the the level of immigration. [70935] Government’s policies. Many Bible colleges may have to close. I am sure that the Minister does not intend that source to dry up, so may I urge him to give specific 15. Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): What consideration to the group of people concerned to steps she is taking to reduce the level of immigration. establish whether there is something that he can do? [70940] Damian Green: I am happy to reassure the hon. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): With Gentleman that we are in close contact with the various permission, Mr Speaker, I will answer question 10 together small theological colleges, and are considering how we with what I profoundly hope is question 15 on the can resolve the issues involved. As I have said, genuine Order Paper. students studying genuine courses at genuine institutions The Government introduced reforms to economic of study are of course welcome in this country. migration, including a limit, from April this year, and we have begun to implement significant changes to the Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): student visa system. We are also consulting on changes The latest figures show that net migration has risen by to family migration, to break the link between work and 20% to 239,000, that the number of work visas issued settlement, and on overseas domestic workers. Taken by the Government has gone up rather than down since together, those measures present a comprehensive package their cap was introduced, and that as a result of the to tackle abuse and reduce net migration. changes in the English language requirement for spousal visas, only 55 visas for a three-month period have been Andrew Selous: The Government’s immigration objectives refused. What will it take for the Minister to admit that have widespread support across the House and across his rhetoric on immigration does not match the reality, the country. What is he doing, however, to tackle the and when will he start being upfront with the British links between temporary and permanent migration into public? this country? Damian Green: I am always upfront. Indeed, let me Damian Green: Along with the list I just read out, be upfront about the “latest figures” that the hon. Lady that is a long-term issue that we are tackling. Our has quoted. They are the figures for December last year, consultation on employment-related settlement, which and thus cover the last few months of the Labour was published on 9 June, sets out proposals for breaking Government. When that Government introduced the the link between work and settlement, including making points-based system that the right hon. Member for the skilled migrants route, tier 2, a primarily temporary Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) one. One problem that this country has had is that said was providing progress in the immigration system, people come here and are not sure whether they are on a net migration was 165,000; two years later, after two permanent or temporary route. That problem does not years of Labour policies, it was 239,000. That is why we affect most countries’ immigration systems, and we are are acting on the work route, the student route and the determined to drive it out from our country’s system as family route, and on the link between temporary and well. permanent migration. Only now that we have a Government who are determined to act across the board on immigration Matthew Hancock: What assessment has the Minister will we get the numbers under control after 13 years of made of the economic impact of uncontrolled immigration abject failure under Labour. over the past decade, and what is he doing to ensure that managed migration is, in future, a boost rather Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Does the Minister than a burden to the economy? accept that immigration supplies people who are essential to a whole range of activities, such as the work of Damian Green: The problem for the previous high-tech companies, research, and a huge number of Government was that, in letting in uncontrolled numbers, other activities in my constituency? Will he ensure that they did not differentiate between those who would that flow continues, and resist the siren calls both from bring benefits to the British economy and those who the Opposition and from his own Back Benchers for the would act as a drag on it. At the heart of our policy is Government to clamp down on people whom we the distinction between those whom we want in this desperately need? country—the brightest and the best—to study, work and bring long-term benefits to this country, and those Damian Green: I hope my hon. Friend will recognise whom we do not want, who either evade what they are that the changes we have made to, in particular, the supposed to be doing, coming here pretending to study work-based system allow skilled workers with a specific but wanting to work, or still more, who come here to offer of a specific job to come to this country, while live off our benefits system. We will have a much better preventing the entry of unskilled workers and of people focused immigration system, as well as significantly who pretend that they wish to study when their main lower net migration. intention is to work. In that way we can indeed retain the advantage of those who bring benefits to the country, Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): One of the groups but without retaining the old immigration system, which who have been coming to this country over the past was out of control and destroyed public confidence in 15 or 20 years—and indeed, for longer—and who have all kinds of immigration. 747 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 748

Antisocial Behaviour to ensure that local communities’ views are heard very loudly and clearly. That is at the heart of the reforms, 11. Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con): What steps she is and I am sure that police and crime commissioners will taking to reduce antisocial behaviour. [70936] have antisocial behaviour at the top of their agendas.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): Home Department (James Brokenshire): This Government The Minister is using some robust words, but he does are clear that reducing antisocial behaviour is core not seem to understand the point. Antisocial behaviour business for the police and their local partners. Current orders are a preventive measure but they need the action includes highlighting effective practice that will back-up of a criminal sanction to make them effective. help professionals to improve their response to victims That has worked across the country. Does he not listen and communities, setting out proposals for more effective to the police, who say it is an essential element in powers, and making more data available to the public. tackling antisocial behaviour?

Karen Lumley: We know that nearly two thirds of James Brokenshire: The Association of Chief Police under-16-year-olds breach their antisocial behaviour Officers has been clear that it supports orders. Will the Minister reassure my constituents that “a simplification of the tools and powers available to frontline despite the protests of the shadow Home Secretary, practitioners, making it easier for them to do what works best.” ASBOs will be replaced with effective sanctions that That is the action we are taking to help the police and will actually tackle antisocial behaviour? communities, and to bring relief against antisocial behaviour, which, sadly, the last Government failed to James Brokenshire: My hon. Friend has made an do. important point about the measures available to professionals on the front line who are dealing with Illegal Immigrants (NHS Treatment) antisocial behaviour. We are keen to ensure that they have discretion to deal with problems in their localities, 12. Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): What and can act speedily to bring relief to communities that procedures are in place to repatriate illegal immigrants are suffering from such behaviour. That is the focus of whose treatment in NHS hospitals has been completed. the Government, that is what we have been consulting [70937] on, and we will present our response to the consultation in due course. The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): The UK Border Agency works closely with health professionals Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): to facilitate the removal of patients who are not entitled The Met have said that ASBOs have been a valuable to remain in the country. Where appropriate, special tool in combating violence and antisocial behaviour on arrangements are made for the removal of persons the part of gangs. Following the August riots, will the undergoing treatment, including the provision of medical Government ditch their plans to weaken the ASBO escorts. The Government take a robust stance on abuse regime through proposals to remove the criminal sanctions of NHS services. and introduce far lighter penalties for those who flout the law? Do communities not deserve to be protected by Margot James: I thank my hon. Friend for his answer. the full force of the criminal law? My local hospital, Russells Hall, was forced to admit a Pakistani national who was not eligible for NHS treatment. James Brokenshire: I am sorry to tell the hon. Lady He was given a discharge when he was medically fit to that I think she has completely misunderstood the leave the hospital. That was as long ago as August last situation. We are ensuring that antisocial behaviour year, yet since then the hospital has had to negotiate measures are effective and will provide relief for with the border agency and Pakistan International Airlines communities. As for the need to combat gangs, we are for a date for his release, and that has cost £100,000-plus. ensuring that injunctions are available to support the Can my hon. Friend assure me that he will put the police and communities and enable firm and clear action necessary pressure on the border agency to enable this to be taken against gangs, and we will have rolled them individual to be released without further delay? out to all communities by the end of this year. Those are practical measures to bring relief to communities, Damian Green: My hon. Friend will appreciate that I which is what the Government are determined to do. cannot go into too much detail on the Floor of the House about an individual case. I am, however, happy Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con): Can to be able to reassure her that since she brought this my hon. Friend reassure my constituents that the case to my personal attention, an airline has now been introduction of police and crime commissioners will found to carry the individual concerned. We are sorting help to ensure that the police focus on local policing out care and reception arrangements in order to ensure priorities, such as antisocial behaviour, that matter in that the removal goes smoothly, and I understand that neighbourhoods such as those across my constituency? he will be removed in the near future.

James Brokenshire: With a mandate that will respond Disorder (Gangs) to local concerns and priorities, I have little doubt that police and crime commissioners will focus on how their 14. Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): What local police forces address antisocial behaviour and will research she has (a) commissioned and (b) evaluated on ensure that the necessary strategies, funding and resources the contribution of gangs to the public disorder of are made available. Our reforms are designed precisely August 2011. [70939] 749 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 750

The Secretary of State for the Home Department Henry Smith: Will my right hon. Friend assure the (Mrs Theresa May): As I said in the House last month, House, and indeed the country, that we will not see a the recent civil unrest was a dark time for everybody repeat of the scandalous situation under the previous who cares about their community and their country, Labour Government where public money intended for and I realise that the hon. Gentleman’s constituency counter-terrorism actually ended up funding some extremist was affected. As part of the work of the inter-ministerial activity? group on gangs, I have commissioned an assessment of the role played by gangs in the recent disorder, and I will Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for raising that report our findings to the House in October. important point. As far as this Government are concerned, extremist organisations have no role in delivering the Mr Umunna: I thank the Home Secretary for her Prevent strategy, and if organisations do not support response, and should declare an interest as the chair of British values, we do not intend to fund them. Organisations the London gangs forum. funded by central Government must clearly demonstrate that they are working in the public interest. In this area, I have been told by my local police that gangs were the transparency that has been adopted by this Government, not necessarily co-ordinating all the activity in our area, both at central and local level, will be an important part although gang culture is a big ongoing issue for us. How of the process of enabling people to see where the much of the £18 million that the Government have money is being spent and to challenge that, if necessary. committed to tackling this issue—funding that will help police and local community groups—will directly benefit the London borough of Lambeth? Topical Questions

Mrs May: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. T1. [70950] Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) If I may, I will write to him with the specific information (Con): If she will make a statement on her departmental he has requested about Lambeth. London as a whole is responsibilities. one of the three areas, along with Greater Manchester and the west midlands, that are particularly benefiting The Secretary of State for the Home Department from the funding that has been made available, as they (Mrs Theresa May): Yesterday was, of course, the 10th are areas where the gang problem is a particular issue. anniversary of the terrorist atrocities of 9/11. None of The hon. Gentleman is right that, notwithstanding us will ever forget the events of that day or those attacks whatever role gangs played in the riots and unrest of on our own shores, including the 7/7 London bombings early August, we must deal with gang culture, because, and the decades of terror campaigns waged in Northern sadly, it is a problem that blights too many of our Ireland. The Government remain as committed as ever communities. to preventing future acts of terrorism and keeping the public safe. Following the death of bin Laden, al-Qaeda Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con): Are the events is weaker than at any time over the past decade. New of early August not a wake-up call to the fact that the threats will evolve, but so will our security measures to problem of gang culture, which has been around for a counter them. While we remember the victims, we must long time, needs to be taken more seriously? Although also remain vigilant. I commend those, particularly our tough enforcement action against known gang members front-line emergency workers, who continue to work is part of the solution, is it not clear that a much wider against terrorism and risk their lives to protect ours. approach will be required to tackle the problem? Stephen Phillips: Will my right hon. Friend update the House about the meetings she has had with chief Mrs May: My hon. Friend is absolutely right, which constables and colleagues following the recent rioting, is why the inter-ministerial group on gangs is not only which was of great concern to so many of my constituents, looking at the enforcement issue; we are looking at to ensure that there is no repetition and that those other matters, such as preventing young people from involved are speedily brought to justice? getting involved in gangs and diverting them from gangs when they become gang members. We are examining Mrs May: I thank my hon. and learned Friend for examples of good work from both outside the UK and that question. We have had a number of meetings with within it—for example, in Strathclyde and Waltham chief constables and others. As I said in an earlier Forest. answer, I am chairing an inter-ministerial group that works on tackling gangs—it is looking at that particular Terrorism aspect of the riots—and we have already had a number of discussions about public order policing, in particular. I have, of course, asked Her Majesty’s inspectorate of 16. Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con): What steps she is constabulary to examine the issue and advise on guidance taking to prevent people from being drawn into for forces on matters such as tactics and the number of terrorism. [70941] police that need to be trained in dealing with riots.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab): It is now 15 months (Mrs Theresa May): The new Prevent strategy was since the joint thematic review on the nature and culture published on 7 June 2011. It outlines three key objectives: of gangs reported in June 2010. The review was carried responding to the ideological challenge of terrorism; out by the chief inspector of prisons, the chief inspector supporting individuals at risk of radicalisation; and of constabulary and the chief inspector of probation. working with sectors and institutions where there are They concluded that risks of radicalisation. “there was no integrated joint national strategy” 751 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 752 and so agencies had EHRC. Our consultation closed in June and we will be “missed significant opportunities to work with young people responding shortly, but we have already announced involved or likely to get involved in gangs.” that we will reduce its budget by more than half from Can she say when we are likely to get a response to that £55 million in 2010-11 to £28.8 million in 2014-15. review from the Government? T8. [70957] Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) Mrs May: The hon. Gentleman has raised the matter (Lab/Co-op): When it was announced that the of a review that was, of course, reporting on what had Government would do away with the National Policing taken place under the previous Labour Government. Improvement Agency, Ministers acknowledged that it We are undertaking a particular piece of work on was important for the functions undertaken by that gangs, bringing a number of Departments together to agency to go to some other organisation and for there examine the issues and work out how we can best to be great clarity, but 14 months on we are still not address the gang culture and prevent young people clear. When will the Home Secretary tell us exactly from getting involved in gangs. In doing that, we are which functions will go to which body as a result of the doing what is absolutely right: we are looking at not abolition of the NPIA? only the evidence that has come before, but at practice on the ground today. We are finding out what is working Mrs May: The right hon. Gentleman knows that we today and looking at how to extend that good practice have already identified a number of functions and where to other parts of the country. they will move to. For example, certain issues, such as non-IT procurement, have come back into the Home T3. [70952] Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): During the Office. We are working with the police forces to set up a recent disturbances, children in Banbury as young as police-owned company to deal with IT, which is a 14 sought to use Facebook to incite public disorder. significant part of what has been undertaken previously Will my hon. Friend update the House on her by the NPIA. We will be making announcements about discussions with providers of social networks? the exact destination for the other aspects of the NPIA’s work in the coming weeks. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Lynne Featherstone): I can inform T5. [70954] Nicky Morgan (Loughborough) (Con): I my hon. Friend that the Home Secretary held a constructive am sure the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice meeting with the Association of Chief Police Officers, will agree that police officers need the best and most the police and representatives from the social media professional training. Does he therefore welcome industry and the companies have made clear their moves by colleges such as Loughborough college in my commitment to removing illegal content and, when constituency to offer a police, law and community appropriate, closing accounts, whether at the request of course, which is already being used by at least three of the police or because of a tip-off from other users. It our police forces? was agreed to step up co-operation to ensure that these processes are working effectively. Nick Herbert: I commend Loughborough college for taking the initiative in this important area. We are T2. [70951] John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab): Due to committed to improving the professionalism of the Government cuts, Worksop police cells are to close this police. I understand that the course is not accredited at month. Local police officers have asked me to ask the the moment and that the college should seek that Home Secretary this: how exactly will that closure accreditation before it can be treated as appropriate contribute to crime reduction in Bassetlaw? learning for the minimum qualification for a police officer. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): It is entirely a matter for the chief constable Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): The chairman of Cheshire and police authority how they deploy their resources. police authority, Margaret Ollerenshaw, has written to There has been some rationalisation of custody and we me to say that by March 2012 we will have 217 fewer are also very supportive of those forces that seek to police officer posts and that by 31 March 2015 a further contract out custody facilities and in so doing improve 151 officer posts will have to be cut. She says: their service and save money. “These cuts need further consideration in the light of the service demanded of the police”. T4. [70953] Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): How will these cuts, combined with 446 staff posts that The Equality and Human Rights Commission posted will be cut, help combat crime and antisocial behaviour qualified accounts in 2009-10 and the auditors found in Halton and Cheshire? poor financial management, poor record keeping and poor leadership. What specific actions will the Minister Nick Herbert: Tomorrow I will take part in a conference take to rectify this problem and to ensure that that has been organised by Cheshire police to consider taxpayers’ money is not wasted by that organisation? those precise issues and to identify the opportunities that arise from adopting a leaner structure. The chief Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for drawing attention constable of Cheshire is as convinced as I am that it is to the issue. The qualifications, of course, represent possible to reorganise in a way that protects front-line spend for periods under the previous Government and services. we have been absolutely clear with the EHRC from the start that any problems with its accounts under this T6. [70955] Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con): Will Government are likely to result in financial consequences the Home Secretary join me in congratulating Thames for it. In March, we set out our plans to change the Valley police on halving crime at this year’s Reading 753 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 754 festival compared with last year and, more generally, Nick Herbert: The hon. Lady knows that this is a on demonstrating that it is possible to protect visible matter for the leadership of the Metropolitan police front-line policing while finding budget savings? and for the Mayor. The Mayor has made it clear that he seeks to maintain the number of police officers in Mrs May: I thank my hon. Friend for his question, to London at above 32,000, which will be more than he which I am very happy to respond, not least because I inherited from his Labour predecessor, and to protect could hear Reading festival from my home even with neighbourhood policing. the doors and windows shut. A significant number of people attended that event, which has had problems T9. [70958] Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) with crime in the past, so Thames Valley police are to be (Con): In Torpoint and other parts of my constituency, congratulated on the work they did this year to reduce police response teams are finding that their times are crime. The Thames Valley force is a very good example restricted by the geography of the area, which means of a force that is committed to ensuring that it retains that some officers are forced to cross the River Tamar front-line and response policing while also cutting costs on a ferry or to drive for at least 30 minutes. Does my by, for example, collaborating with other forces. right hon. Friend consider that that is acceptable?

Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): The Nick Herbert: I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns chief constable of Greater Manchester says that he is about this issue and I also appreciate the particular closing police stations to make his force more like geography in that part of her constituency. These matters Argos. Does the Home Secretary agree with that crazy of deployment are for the chief constable to decide and comparison? My experience of Argos is that the local it is better that Ministers do not try to second-guess branch never has what you want and you have to travel those, but I am happy to draw her concerns to the chief miles to find it. constable’s attention.

Mrs May: The chief constable of Greater Manchester Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab): Do Ministers believe has been absolutely clear that it is possible to make cuts that a local police station is a front-line service? in budgets but that it is also necessary to make changes in and transform the way that policing is delivered. He Nick Herbert: I think that what is important is the is committed, as are other chief constables, to ensuring visibility and availability of police officers, which is that he delivers a quality service to the people of Greater variable between police forces. In many cases, it can be Manchester. significantly improved. I have said to the House before that if police forces can find innovative ways to increase T7. [70956] Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con): Given that their presence in communities—for instance, by being so many people were left for years—sometimes for in supermarkets—that can often be very much better more than a decade—with uncertain immigration than maintaining empty or underused offices that are status, creating wrenching circumstances if their claims rarely visited. now for status fail, does the Minister consider that it was immoral of the previous Labour Government to lose control of the immigration system and will he Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD): Will the Home Secretary assure the House that he will not do likewise? place in the Library a definition, with examples, of what constitute police back-office and, as we have heard this afternoon, middle-office facilities? Does she accept The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green): Yes, that part of the front line is 24-hour policing with my hon. Friend knows that one of the myriad problems 24-hour police stations in our major urban centres? we inherited on the immigration front was the remains of a backlog of half a million asylum cases that had simply disappeared inside a warehouse. We have now Mrs May: I am happy to say to my hon. Friend that got to the end of that process, but he is right: it is the work on the definition of the back, middle and absolutely essential not to let any similar-sized backlog front-line functions has been done by Her Majesty’s build up again—not just for general confidence in the inspectorate of constabulary, not by the Home Office. immigration system, but as part of our moral duty to A report defining those functions is available from treat anyone who comes to this country and applies for HMIC, and I am happy to make sure that it is available asylum with as much efficiency as we can. The system in the Library. should work not just for them but for the taxpayer. It is a win-win if we get the asylum system to be more Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Crime levels in competent than it was. north Wales dropped by 45% over the 13 years that Labour was in power. Over the past year, crime levels Mr Speaker: Order. I feel it is my moral duty to press have gone up. Do Ministers accept any responsibility on so that we get more Back Benchers in. for the increase in crime?

Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab): Some of Nick Herbert: As there has barely been any reduction the most pressurised communities in London are facing in front-line police officers in the period that the hon. the loss of familiar and well-liked safer neighbourhood Gentleman describes, I think that what he tries to imply sergeants. Will the Minister give an assurance that there is false. What matters is how effectively police officers will be no more reductions in the local leadership of are deployed and how efficiently they are working. safer neighbourhood teams, or is the model of ward-based What Opposition Members do not accept is that we safer neighbourhood policing now dead under this have to deal with the deficit. We must find the savings Government? because of the mess they left this country in. 755 Oral Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 756

Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con): Will my right hon. co-ordinating activity against trafficking, both domestic Friend condemn the antisocial behaviour and racism of and international, which will give us a much more the Islamist demonstration near the commemoration of effective way of combating such particularly vile crime. 9/11 yesterday? Does she agree that that demonstration should not have been allowed to take place so close to Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I have been the commemoration, and will she take steps to stop that contacted by a constituent who was born in Germany happening again? while her father, an Irish citizen, was stationed there with the British Army in 1948. Despite her mother Mrs May: Anybody who engages in criminal activity being British, and the fact that she has lived the remainder should be dealt with appropriately. I am pleased to of her life in the UK, she is a British subject, not a inform the House that I understand that nine arrests British citizen, which carries additional cost and were made at the time yesterday, but further arrests inconvenience when she travels. Will the Home Secretary have been made. The number up to date is 33, but that consider how to resolve that historic anomaly? may change. Damian Green: That sounds like a deliberate quiz Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab): The recent question for the Immigration Minister, with every possible disturbances in Salford had a large element of organised complication within it. If the hon. Lady wishes to write criminality. The Home Secretary is aware of Operation to me, I will happily examine the details of the case. Gulf in Salford, led by Superintendent Kevin Mulligan, which has had significant success against organised Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): Is the criminals. With the cuts that are proposed in Greater Minister aware that in the police service a centrally Manchester, what support can she continue to ensure procured box of 100 wipes for electronic equipment goes into successful operations to tackle serious and costs £19, whereas it can be bought on the internet for organised crime? £1? What can the Government do about that?

Mrs May: As the right hon. Lady knows, chief constables Nick Herbert: Overall, we believe that huge savings will be making decisions about particular local operations could be accrued through better procurement by the that they wish to undertake, but the Government are police, but we have to remember that the costs of giving much greater power to the police to deal with procurement are not just the cost of goods. They are the serious organised crime through the creation, in due cost of the separate organisations in 43 forces that are course, of the national crime agency. We touch far too individually procuring goods and equipment. On those few organised crime groups in the UK. Organised crime calculations, we think we can save £350 million a year costs this country £30 billion to £40 billion a year. The by more effective procurement. NCA will help to tackle that. Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab): Youth workers up Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): and down the country were asked to work on the streets Following this weekend’s utterly despicable revelations during the recent disturbances, but many of those workers of the way in which 24 of my constituents have been are being made redundant. Has the Minister examined kept as slaves, some for 15 years, may I wholeheartedly the probable impact on crime and antisocial behaviour commend the robust action of Bedfordshire police in of these cuts to youth work? bringing that to light and putting it right? Will the Government please pay particular attention to the issue Mrs May: In the work of the inter-ministerial group of internal trafficking in the United Kingdom, given on gangs, we will of course look at effective ways of that 17 of those 24 slaves were British citizens? dealing with gang culture and with young people who get caught up in criminality, but I say to the hon. Lady Damian Green: I am sure the whole House will share and her hon. and right hon. Friends that the evidence my hon. Friend’s disgust at something that came as a indicates that the Government, in various forms, often shock to many of us. He is right. What we saw was spend a lot of money on individuals and their families, effective police action, co-ordinated in many ways by but sadly not all of that is spent effectively. Our task is the Serious Organised Crime Agency. As he knows, the to ensure that money is focused effectively to deal with new national crime agency will have among its functions the problems. 757 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 758 Report Independent Banking Commission Report Let me set out the commission’s recommendations and how we propose to respond. The first proposal is the 3.35 pm introduction of a ring fence around retail banking. The Government have welcomed, and welcome, this The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): recommendation in principle. As the report states, I would like to make a statement on the final report of “the objective of such a ring-fence would be to isolate those the Independent Commission on Banking. The report banking activities where continuous provision of service is vital to is an impressive piece of work, broad in scope, incisive the economy and to a bank’s customers.” in its analysis and clear in its recommendations. The In other words, that is the provision of key domestic Commission has done what we asked it to do; it has retail banking services, such as taking deposits from come up with an answer to the question of how Britain individuals and small businesses or providing them with can be the home of successful international banks that overdrafts. The central benefit of a ring fence is not to lend to families and businesses without exposing British end large, universal banking groups, but to make them taxpayers to the massive costs of those banks failing. more easily resolvable in a crisis. Frankly, it is a question that should have been asked The costs should fall on shareholders and the wholesale and answered a decade ago. We should all thank Sir John debt holders, not on small depositors or on taxpayers. A Vickers and the other members of the commission—Clare successful ring fence will be able to ensure the continuation Spottiswoode, Martin Taylor, Bill Winters and Martin of vital payment services that are crucial to preventing Wolf—for a job well done. an economic collapse, and this directly addresses the The commission and its report have not come about perceived implicit taxpayer guarantee, which is at the by accident. It was set up by the coalition Government heart of the too-big-to-fail problem. to learn the lessons of what went so catastrophically The commission has also proposed a more flexible wrong: a decade-long, debt-fuelled boom that ended in ring fence. In terms of scope, it says that a dramatic financial crisis, a deep recession and a debt “domestic retail banking services should be inside the ring fence, overhang that is still holding back our economy; a global wholesale/investment banking should be outside, and the regulatory system that totally failed to spot enormous provision of straightforward banking services to large domestic imbalances building up and proved incapable of dealing non-financial companies can be in or out.” with the crisis when it first broke; and most importantly, Many will see this as sensible, and it will reduce inefficiencies in the context of this report, huge global banks that resulting from any mismatch between customer deposits turned out to be “too big to fail”, so that taxpayers were and business lending within an individual bank. called upon for many billions of pounds in order to On the strength—or height, if you like—of the ring prevent a financial meltdown. We still do not know, and fence, the commission recommends that the retail subsidiary may not know for many years, how much of that money should have what it calls “economic independence”. In will ever be recovered, despite promises made at the other words, it should meet regulatory requirements on time that not a penny would be lost. a stand-alone basis, and its relationships with other We are fundamentally changing the system of regulation parts of the group should be at arm’s length and regulated and tackling the debts, but the bail-out for banks is the in the same way as relationships with third parties. A element of the crisis that has, justifiably, caused the most great deal of detailed work will now be required to see anger. It is an affront both to fairness and to the very how that principle can be put into practice. principles of a market economy. It is not available to Secondly, the commission has also made important any other sector of the economy, and nor should it be. recommendations to ensure that banks have bigger It breaks the principle that those who take risks should cushions to withstand losses, so the large retail ring-fenced face the consequences of their actions. As a result, it banks should have equity capital of at least 10%. It also played an important role in encouraging the excessive recommends that retail and other activities of large UK risk-taking that caused the crisis. banking groups should both have primary loss-absorbing Of course, taxpayer bail-outs did not happen only in capacity of at least 17% to 20%, including long-term this country. An international regulatory response to debt that can be written off, so that unlike last time both the crisis is now emerging, with the new Basel rules and shareholders and bondholders bear losses, not the taxpayer. the anticipated new additional requirements for systemic Within that, the commission recommends some regulatory banks, but here in Britain we cannot rely only on the discretion over the composition of this loss-absorbing international reform process to make our banking system capacity, and again many will see that as sensible. safe. The challenge we face, and the risk for our taxpayers, Thirdly, the commission recommends the introduction is different from that in most other countries. The of depositor preference. I repeat again in this House balance sheet of our banking system is close to 500% of that the Financial Services Compensation Scheme covers our GDP, compared with just over 100% in the US and 100% of eligible deposits up to the new European limit around 300% in Germany and France. Only Iceland, of ¤100,000, or £85,000. The depositor preference proposals Ireland and Switzerland had larger banking systems, would bolster the scheme by ensuring that other bank relative to their GDP, and they have all now taken creditors were subject to losses first when a bank went action that goes well beyond new international standards. bust, minimising the cost to the scheme and ultimately As the report states, to the taxpayer. “part of the challenge for reform is to reconcile the UK’s position The fourth set of recommendations relates to competition as an international financial centre with stable banking”. in the banking sector. These have not had as much This is what I have called the British dilemma: how to attention as the other recommendations, but they are remain a successful global centre of finance without arguably as important to families and businesses. I asking taxpayers to bear unacceptable risks or putting agree with the commission that the best way to ensure a the broader economy at risk. We set up the Banking reliable and affordable supply of lending to our families Commission to help us solve the British dilemma. and businesses is through competition. 759 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 760 Report Report The collapse of banks such as Bradford & Bingley We will consider which changes can be in the existing and the merger of Lloyds and HBOS, which the previous draft Financial Services Bill and which will need a new Government welcomed, means that there is too little Bill, and we will discuss these changes with international competition and switching bank accounts remains difficult. partners to ensure consistency with international agreements I welcome the commission’s recommendations to change and EU law. We will follow the advice of the independent that. commission and ensure that any changes to the British On the divestment of the Lloyds branches, the banking system are fully completed by 2019. This is a commission has said that the key test should be the sensible timetable that fits with the international regime. emergence of a strong and effective new challenger As John Vickers himself said this morning, bank, and I agree that that would be very much in our “short-termism got us into this mess and we need long-termism country’s interest. to build a more stable system for the future”. Those are the recommendations. Let me turn to the The question of how Britain is the home of successful, implications for the wider economy, the implications for global banks that lend to British families and businesses Britain as a global financial centre and the timetable for but do not have to be bailed out by British taxpayers the Government’s response. should have been answered a decade ago, but it was not even asked—and that failure means this country is still The report is clear that the right solution, implemented paying the price for that failure. Billions of pounds have properly and to the right timetable, will help our economy, been spent and hundreds of thousands of jobs have not hinder it. Let us remember that the mistakes made been lost as a result. It is this coalition Government by poorly regulated banks ended up costing the economy who set up the Independent Commission on Banking—not many, many billions of pounds. The commission notes just to ask the questions but to provide the answers. that some of its recommendations could reduce the Today represents a decisive moment when we take a profitability of some banks’investment banking operations, step towards a new banking system that works for and that is largely because we would be removing the Britain. I commend this statement to the House. subsidy that comes from any perceived implicit taxpayer guarantee. We should not confuse the interest of bank Ed Balls (Morley and Outwood) (Lab/Co-op): Let shareholders with those of the British taxpayer. me start by expressing our thanks to Sir John Vickers It is also critical that reforms of this kind do not lead and the Independent Commission on Banking for to worsening credit conditions in the economy. Indeed, producing a report which will radically reshape our John Vickers says: banking industry and our wider economy and which “Banks with more robust capital, together with the creation of will echo all around the world. It is now the task of the the ring-fence, would provide a secure and stable framework for Government and this Parliament to respond to its the supply of credit to businesses and households in the UK recommendations in an equally balanced, radical and economy.” timely manner, because taxpayers, customers and businesses The commission believes that its proposals could help want radical action. They were shocked and angered to rebuild the culture of relationship banking which has by the irresponsible actions of banks in New York, in been so sadly lost over the past decades, and that would London, in Frankfurt and in Amsterdam which caused help banks to understand the credit needs of their the global financial crisis. But while they are angry at customers better. the banks, they are also angry with the regulators, the Let me turn to the UK’s role as a global centre for central bankers and the Governments who failed to finance and banking. I will be very clear: the Government foresee and prevent this irresponsibility. want Britain and the City of London to be the pre-eminent As I have said before, for the part that I and the last global centre for banking and finance; and we want Labour Government played in that global regulatory universal banks headquartered here, with all the advantages failure, I am deeply sorry. But let me say to Conservative that that brings. The Vickers report explicitly addresses Members and, in particular, to the Chancellor, who this issue, and, for those investment banks with credible accused me in 2006 of supporting recovery plans, it has not recommended higher equity “burdensome, complex” requirements than those agreed at an international level. regulation which, he said, would make This means that the global investment banking operations “cross-border market penetration more difficult” of UK banks can continue to be as competitive as any and in the world, and we as a Government will continue to keep the City as a whole internationally competitive, as “threatens the global competitiveness of the City of London”, was clear last week when we welcomed, with the Chinese that perhaps the Chancellor also needs to show a little Government, the development of the offshore renminbi— humility about that global regulatory failure. RMB—market in London. In April, I set three tests which I believe the Government Let me end by explaining to the House how we will must meet in implementing banking reform: to protect now take forward the commission’s report. We have taxpayers in the future; to secure international agreement welcomed the recommendations in principle. They would to protect jobs in Britain; and to deliver a wider banking require far-reaching and complex changes; John Vickers system to support the wider long-term interests of our is the first to say that they cannot be delivered overnight. economy. I will take them in turn. First, to protect The detailed work will start immediately. We will consult taxpayers, we support the commission’s radical reforms on the costs and benefits of the most appropriate way on ring-fencing and regulatory standards. Unlike the to implement these changes—and we will provide a Chancellor, who revealingly supports them in principle, response by the end of this year so that there is no we agree with the Business Secretary and support them uncertainty hanging over the industry. We will legislate in practice. We agree with the commission, which says in this Parliament to put the needed changes into law. that the current weak state of the economy does not 761 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 762 Report Report [Ed Balls] Mr Osborne: Let me start by welcoming the right hon. Gentleman’s support for the report of the Independent weaken but strengthens the case for reform. These are Banking Commission. I welcome the fact that he now complex reforms, and the cautious timetable that the wants to see it implemented in this country, as I understand commission has set is understandable. However, given it, even if the changes are not implemented abroad. the unsettling public bickering we have seen within the That is a change in his position from April, which I Cabinet in recent weeks, we strongly agree that the welcome. We all enjoyed his apology for what went Government must provide clarity about their view of wrong. He has another four years of those, I think, the commission’s recommendations as soon as possible— before he makes up for the horrendous mistakes that and move rapidly to put in place the necessary legislation were made. and rules. So let me ask the Chancellor this: will he agree to Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op): Where’s publish, by end of this year, alongside his response, a your apology? detailed implementation plan for the commission’s recommendations on ring-fencing, including clear milestone Mr Osborne: The right hon. Gentleman was the dates? Will he agree to legislate as much of these changes Minister responsible for the City when Northern Rock as possible in the draft Financial Services Bill? To make totally lost control of its wholesale funding; he was the sure that there is no foot-dragging—to move beyond Minister responsible for the City when RBS launched principle to practice—will he agree with our proposal to its takeover of ABN AMRO; he was the Minister ask the Vickers commission to come back in 12 months’ responsible for the City when HBOS was making all time and publish an independent report on progress those unsupportable loans. No one in this House knows so far? more about how to get it wrong than the right hon. On the second test of securing international agreement, Gentleman. He talks about unseemly bickering on the will the Chancellor ensure that the Vickers report is Government Front Bench, yet we have just been reading placed firmly at the centre of the global financial reform the memoirs of a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, agenda? Will he set out a plan and timetable for that the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West international process? In recent months, he has failed to (Mr Darling), who is no doubt about to speak. What he deliver international leadership on the eurozone. If he reveals about the regime that the shadow Chancellor fails on this agenda, we will see a global race to the operated shows that this is the pot calling the kettle bottom, with other financial services centres taking black, to put it mildly. short-term advantage of our tougher approach, which Let me come on to the specific points that the right would put thousands of UK jobs at risk. hon. Gentleman made. First, on the legislation in this Thirdly, on competition in the wider economy, the Parliament and the draft Financial Services Bill, he is commission is right to highlight the costs to consumers trying to make hay by exploiting a completely false and businesses of excessive concentration in UK banking. distinction between principle and practice. We support Greater competition is not the whole answer to the these measures in principle and will put them into culture of short-termism that still plagues our capital practice through detailed legislation. One cannot support markets, but we fully support the commission’s all of this in practice because it requires detailed legislation, recommendations on divestiture, a new challenger bank, which even John Vickers says is not for the commission. easier account switching and a stronger competition Let there be no doubt that we support the Banking duty on the new financial regulator. However, 2015 is Commission’s report and that we will legislate in this too long to wait to judge whether progress is sufficient Parliament. The draft Financial Services Bill might well or whether we need a referral to the Competition be a vehicle for implementing some of the changes, Commission. Delays could leave consumers and small but we might also require a separate Bill. That is partly businesses to pick up an unfair share of the multi-billion because we need to get the draft Financial Services Bill pound bill for tougher capital standards. Will the Chancellor through the House so that the new regulatory regime, therefore commit to review progress not in four years, which we are also introducing, is up and running by the but in two years in 2013—two years earlier than the beginning of 2013. As I said, I think it is sensible to commission recommends? stick with the proposal put forward by John Vickers Finally, none of these reforms can help the thousands that we set ourselves the deadline of legislating in this of small businesses that are currently struggling to Parliament. access the credit they need. As the Bank of England has Secondly, the right hon. Gentleman talked about the confirmed, net bank lending to business is not rising, international environment. He knows, as many hon. but falling. It is down £4 billion in the most recent Members do, that there has been a lot of movement on figures, despite the Chancellor’s toothless Merlin deal the international front to introduce the new Basel with the banks. Will the Chancellor agree today to requirements, which are, of course, on the same timetable ensure that state-owned banks increase their lending in as the Vickers proposal that the changes should be the coming months? Will he act now to have greater completed by 2019. Those are sensible changes, but we transparency on pay and bonuses and repeat the bank will argue for other changes that we would like to see at bonus tax for a second year? Will he recognise that international level, not least the implementation of some rising unemployment and a flatlining economy will of the agreements made under both this Government further depress confidence and small business borrowing and the previous one at G20 level, on such things as until he changes course and adopts a plan B for growth bankers’ pay and remuneration. We want to see those and jobs? Today’s report provides some of the answers properly implemented in all regimes. Of course, we to the pressing problems we face; it is time the Chancellor hope that other jurisdictions, the Financial Stability woke up to the rest. Board and others will look at the report, but John 763 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 764 Report Report Vickers was not asked to produce a regime for the We asked John Vickers carefully to consider the timetable, world; he was asked to produce a regime for the UK to and he gave a lot of thought to it. He recommends that reflect the fact that we have 500% banking assets as a all the changes should be completed by 2019, but that proportion of our GDP. other changes should take place at earlier dates—he Thirdly, I am afraid that I just do not agree with the specifies those dates in his work. The 2019 back-stop is right hon. Gentleman on competition, and nor does appropriate, because that is the date when the international John Vickers. The right hon. Gentleman says that we rules also need to be in place. We should not underestimate should have a Competition Commission inquiry in 2013, the huge amount of work to be done in this House to but my office has contacted the secretariat of the Banking get the report turned into legislation that works and Commission today to ask it for its view. The commission that people do not find ways around. said that the reason why it chose 2015 is that three vital things that it wants to be operational, including the new Mr Alistair Darling (Edinburgh South West) (Lab): I challenger bank and the new switching of bank accounts am grateful to the Chancellor for plugging my book, proposals, do not come into effect until 2013. By the but when he gets a chance to read it, I think that he will way, the latter is a very significant proposal, and I hope see that political parties on both sides of the House gets some coverage in the media among all the discussion went along with the culture that led to some of the of investment banking—the proposal is that people can problems we had to deal with and that some of the easily switch their current accounts, and their direct shrillest voices calling for light-touch regulation were debits and so on will follow automatically. However, those of Members now sitting on the Treasury Bench. that does not come into effect until 2013, and the Will he tell us a bit more about what discussions he financial conduct authority is not operational till 2013. proposes having with other Governments, in view of the interconnected nature of the banking system, which is The Banking Commission considered that timetable, only as strong as its weakest part? Will he also deal with and it thinks that 2015 is the right year in which to the erroneous assumption that there will never be a case consider whether the changes are working in practice. I in the future when a Government might have to bail out agree very much with that—[Interruption.] The shadow an investment bank? We should remember what happened Chancellor says “12 months”, but he had 13 years to get to Lehman Brothers. It cannot ever be said that we will these changes right. At the last general election, I remember never have to do that again, even with a bank that is not having a debate with my colleague the Business Secretary thought now to be systemically important. I welcome and others in this House. The only party arguing against the report, but it has to be seen as part of a wider range structural change of the banking system was the Labour of reforms necessary to make our banking system stronger party, so it is simply ludicrous of the shadow Chancellor and more secure. to suggest that we are dragging our feet. We are getting on with it. We have produced this report within a year Mr Osborne: I respect the right hon. Gentleman’s and a half of being in government, and now we are experience of having been through all that he went getting on and putting it into practice, so that we do not through as Chancellor. He had to deal with these problems make the mistakes he made when he was in office. in real time over long weekends, and I have paid tribute previously to the work that he did on behalf of our Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): After country in those difficult months. As for his book, I that uncharacteristically guilt-racked contribution by have only just started reading it, but as far as I can see, the shadow Chancellor, may I, by contrast, applaud the I get off relatively lightly compared to the former Prime Chancellor for appointing this Banking Commission Minister the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and and for withstanding the intensive lobbying against it Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). by the very same universal banks that very nearly The right hon. Gentleman made a good point about destroyed the world economy? May I thank him also for the interconnectedness of the banking system. The accepting the recommendations of the Vickers commission? Basel rules are significant, and I believe that that process Finally, may I put it to him that I very much hope that was initiated when he was Chancellor and representing we will proceed as he has promised, not only with the United Kingdom. New arrangements have been legislation in this Parliament, but in implementing it as agreed in record time. It took 10 years to come up with soon as possible, and well before 2019, when the long Basel II, but about 18 months to come up with Basel grass may have grown into a forest? III. The international rules are important because they help us to deal with investment banks in foreign jurisdictions, Mr Osborne: I thank my right hon. Friend for his such as Lehman Brothers, and to protect all globally support for the banking commission, and for his kind systemically important banks and give them bigger words. He has many decades of experience— cushions. As he well knows, new proposals are coming down the track for additional capital requirements on the most globally systemically important banks. That is Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): Centuries! significant. Also, we are putting in place the recovery- and-resolution ideas that, again, he initiated when he Mr Osborne: Well, I think my right hon. Friend was was Chancellor in order to ensure that we can deal with certainly alive when Messrs Glass and Steagall were, the failure of the UK-end of an American investment which most Members of the House could not say. bank. That will ensure that these banks do not just live I respect my right hon. Friend’s experience. He has internationally and die nationally, but that we can resolve long argued for some form of separation between retail any problems. and investment banking and has been consistent in I would make a broader point, however. Yes, we have making that argument. Events have borne out his advice to do that at an international level, but we also have to to successive Governments. consider regimes that have large concentrations of banking, 765 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 766 Report Report [Mr George Osborne] through all the arguments for a complete separation of the banks and comes down on the side of saying that it such as Switzerland—let us, for a moment, leave aside would not be sensible. He thinks that the cost to the Ireland and Iceland, which were obviously virtually economy would be particularly high, albeit without any bankrupted by what happened. It is interesting that real stability benefits. He also thinks that there are Switzerland, which, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, circumstances where one would want a retail bank to be is as keen as anyone to remain internationally competitive, supported by the rest of the bank—the investment has introduced its own domestic regime for its banks. It bank—and have money transferred into it, which would is wholly appropriate for us to consider doing that in enhance stability. The third point, which will not be this country while, of course, recommending to other universally popular in this Chamber, is that such a countries changes that we think are sensible for all separation would be almost unenforceable under European jurisdictions. law, because other European banks—or, indeed, one of our banks that had moved to another European Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Sir John Vickers jurisdiction—could passport money in. For those three has made a strong case both on competition, on which reasons, John Vickers does not think it sensible to split he has endorsed proposals from the Treasury Committee, the banks up. and on the ring fence, on which the Committee will now be taking evidence from him. On the timing of Several hon. Members rose— implementation, however, rather than adding a ring fence to the list of measures in the current Financial Mr Speaker: Order. The Chancellor is helpfully offering Services Bill, which is already long and complex, surely the House very informative answers, but I would gently it is sensible to commit now to a separate ring-fencing point out that thus far we have made what can best be Bill in this Parliament, while making it clear now that described as leisurely progress, on which I hope we can full implementation of the higher capital and debt now improve. requirements, which might lead in the short term to lending risks, can be left at least until 2018 or possibly Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Reform of the later? banks was one of the key foundation stones of the coalition Government, so I very much welcome today’s Mr Osborne: The Chairman of the Treasury Select report. The public will certainly expect this Government Committee makes a sensible suggestion. It is likely—I to legislate as soon as possible to enact the various parts do not want to say certain—that we will need a separate of the report, but they will need a reassurance today piece of legislation on some of these specific changes to that there will be no excuse for the banks not returning banking. However, I hope that we can also use the to lending to small and medium-sized businesses, which Financial Services Bill to implement other key parts of are so necessary for our economies to return to sustainable the reform. That is the case because we want to get this growth. right. The draft Bill is currently being discussed by the Joint Committee chaired by the right hon. Member for Mr Osborne: The agreement among my right hon. Hitchin and Harpenden (Mr Lilley), and we simply will Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the Business not be able to produce all that detail in the next couple Secretary, me, the Prime Minister and other members of of months before the Bill is introduced. We have to get the coalition Government has been solid on this report. this right. As John Vickers said, short-termism got us Anyone who has been looking for disagreement in the into this mess, and we need a bit of long-termism to get coalition has not really been able to find it today it right. However, I hope that the commitment to legislate because both parties agreed that this was a good idea in this Parliament reassures people that it is going to and we both support the report’s conclusions. On lending, happen in this Parliament. This bunch of Ministers, briefly, we have the Merlin agreements and we are this Government, will be held accountable if we do not trying to protect small and medium-sized businesses as legislate in this Parliament. We have given a clear these huge banks deleverage, and the process has helped commitment, and I am sure that the work of the Treasury to do that. Indeed, the targets are for a big increase in Committee, which my hon. Friend chairs, in looking at small business lending, and I am confident that they how this report can be put into practice will be very will be met. valuable. Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/ Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) Co-op): It does not take an expert in forecasting—or (Lab): Why effect a firewall between retail and investment even the Chancellor of the Exchequer—to foresee large banking—which is highly complex and which the banks banks seeking to use the proposed changes to increase will use every device to get round—rather than effecting restrictions on customers accessing bank accounts, a clean break, which provided 60 years of stable banking cashpoints and other services, or to impose charges for after the great depression? Why wait eight years to bank accounts. What reassurance can the Chancellor implement some of the changes, when that will continue provide me and my constituents that his Government to expose taxpayers to another financial crash and will not let that happen? when the banks are still too big to fail? Mr Osborne: As I said in my initial statement, an Mr Osborne: One of the original purposes of creating important part of this report—it will not be at the top the Banking Commission was to try to resolve the of the evening news tonight, but it is important—are argument, which is held in this Chamber and elsewhere, the proposals to enhance competition on the high street about whether to split banks, ring-fence them or leave and create a new challenger bank, so that customers things as they are. In this report John Vickers goes have real choices. There is also a proposal for a free 767 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 768 Report Report service that would enable anyone who wanted to switch get ahead of the curve in that instance—and that is their current account to do so almost immediately, with what he anticipates happening when the changes are all their direct debits and all the other things attached to introduced. their account switched too. That will really help customers to shop around—at the moment, customers do not Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Given the report’s switch their current accounts because they think that it emphasis not only on the size of the British banking would be too difficult and cumbersome—and is one of sector but on the lack of competition within it, will the the most retail-friendly proposals in the report. Chancellor assure the House that he will follow through on the recommendations to encourage new and challenger Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con): If there banks to provide the finance that our small businesses is one class of people more unpopular than MPs, it is desperately need? bankers—and I know where all the populist pressure is coming from. However, regulators do not create wealth; Mr Osborne: I can absolutely give my hon. Friend they stifle it. Does my right hon. Friend acknowledge that assurance. The report addresses the issue of Lloyds, that we have to live in the real world and that London’s which is required to sell branches under European pre-eminent position is based on the fact that we have Union state aid requirements. John Vickers thinks that the lightest regulatory regime in Europe? Will he undertake the key test for the Government’s handling of the to preserve that for the sake of our wealth creation and Lloyds issue will be whether we have created an effective not kill the goose that lays the golden egg? challenger bank. He thinks that any such new bank should have about 6% of the personal current account Mr Osborne: Well, it was not much of a golden egg, market, which is more than the state aid proposals unfortunately, in recent years. It is important for this would lead to, and that it should be properly funded. I country that London, Edinburgh and other centres take those recommendations very seriously. remain globally competitive and that London remains the pre-eminent global centre for finance. Some of the Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab): changes taking place in the City, such as the one I What reassurance can the Chancellor give the House mentioned, involving trying to develop an offshore that the ring-fencing will be effective at the time when it renminbi market, are all part of London being a competitive is most likely to be tested—namely, in the run-up to place to do business. However, being a competitive another debt or liquidity crisis? I listened to his earlier place in which to do financial services does not mean answer about the investment banks putting money into that there has to be a huge taxpayer subsidy for universal the high street banks, and about that being an advantage banks and their retail banking arms in the UK. John for the proposals for ring-fencing, but I have to tell him Vickers explicitly deals with the competition issue. People that I do not find that wholly convincing. If the idea is might have expected him to come to a different conclusion to get support, he has to be able to explain to the House on this, but one of the interesting things he said was how this proposal will work when it is required to do so. that we should not impose additional capital-to-equity ratios on investment banks, precisely because he does Mr Osborne: In a sense, the right hon. Gentleman is not want us to make them internationally uncompetitive. right. The proof of all the arrangements that we are putting in place, and the international arrangements, Stewart Hosie (Dundee East) (SNP): I thank the will be in the pudding—although it is not really the kind Chancellor for his statement, and for giving me early of pudding that we want, because it is a banking crisis. sight of it. I congratulate the commission on the report, and particularly on the report’s dealing with the resilience Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): A golden in the banks and its rejection of splitting up the universal egg pudding? banks in favour of flexible ring-fencing. However, the timetable for this is eight years from today until the final implementation. That is necessary because of the Mr Osborne: Yes, perhaps there are too many kitchen complexity and the potential cost to the banks of metaphors. The point I was making is that we are trying implementation, but will the Chancellor ensure that the to clean up the mess. banks do not consider the next eight years to be a hiatus We should not just assume that banking crashes during which they can return to business, and bonuses, happen every 70 or 100 years. We must hope that they as usual? Will he also ensure that he drives forward as will never happen at all, but we need to put in place the many of these recommendations as he can as quickly as regulatory arrangements, capital requirements and structural possible before the 2019 backstop? changes that will ensure that the person who is in the hot seat the next time it happens, and has to do the job Mr Osborne: I will not repeat what I have said about that the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West the timetable. Suffice it to say that it is what John (Mr Darling) had to do, will have more tools available Vickers recommended, having really thought about it. to him than the right hon. Gentleman had as Chancellor. This involves a combination of getting the detail right and ensuring that the changes do not unduly damage Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con): credit supply in the short term. That is why he has Regulation in the banking sector has already changed recommended a longer timetable. As he pointed out at beyond all recognition. In my view, the best bit of that his press conference this morning, once we propose regulation is giving accountability back to the Bank of such changes and start to legislate for them, some of England. There is no doubt, however, that yet more them will start to happen anyway as banks try to get regulation will have a cost. We can see from bank share ahead of the curve—that is certainly what happened prices now that investors already think that the future with Basel, although they were arguably too quick to of the banks is not as glowing as it was. Does my right 769 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 770 Report Report [Andrea Leadsom] in my constituency during the summer recess and the message I was getting, which is different from what the hon. Friend agree that in order for small and medium-sized Chancellor has said, was that they are still finding it enterprises and personal current account customers to difficult to get banks to provide lending and support. benefit in the future, we need a more diversified banking What is the Chancellor going to do about it? Those sector and we need to encourage more competition and businesses cannot wait around for a few years for legislation to go beyond what the Vickers commission is doing by to happen, so what is the Chancellor going to do today, promoting it through the Financial Conduct Authority next week and next month to improve the lending and as well as through our implementation of the Independent support from banks, as it is still a problem for the Commission on Banking proposals. businesses in my constituency?

Mr Osborne: I hesitate to read out bank share prices, Mr Osborne: I have already talked about how the as they might have changed in the 45 minutes I have Merlin agreements try to protect and indeed increase been on my feet The reaction from the banks today has small and medium-sized business lending at a time not dramatically affected the prices of UK bank shares. when many of these banks are shrinking their balance- There has not been a dramatic fall, nor indeed a dramatic sheets, which were over-extended. We have talked a lot rise. They have remained broadly flat—unlike those of about timetables. The Lloyds divestment and the creation French and German banks, which are very substantially of a new challenger bank are things that have to be got down today. What that also suggests is that John Vickers— on with this year. The offer has to be put to bidders this and, I would argue, the Government—did a good job in year and it must be completed by 2013—and, hopefully, trying to price the proposals into the share price by sooner. In other words, we are encouraging the creation giving clear signposts about the way in which we were of a new presence on the high street, which should give going, so that it did not come as a big surprise. I the hon. Gentleman’s constituents greater choice and completely agree with my hon. Friend about the Financial competition. Conduct Authority.As a member of the Select Committee, she can look at some of the Vickers’ proposals potentially Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): This report is warmly to change the FCA’s remit. We need to consider that, as welcomed, as, indeed, is the Chancellor’s response. It do Members who are looking at the Bill. has to be said, however, that 2019 is a long time away. Will the Chancellor reassure the House, business and Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab): On ring fencing, the public by publishing as soon as possible the specific Vickers suggests 2019 as a backstop, but page 151 of the route by which these recommendations will be implemented? report makes it clear that “efforts” should be “made to complete it sooner.” Mr Osborne: As I have said, the 2019 back-stop is the considered view of John Vickers and his commission. Does the Chancellor accept that recommendation from They have spent an enormous amount of time thinking Vickers and, if not, why not? about this, about trying to get the balance right between getting the rules in place, getting the rules right, and Mr Osborne: I, too, used the phrase “backstop” in ensuring that they do not damage credit supply in the the statement. Vickers recommends that the changes be short term, about which many Members have asked. completed by 2019, but also recommended in his press The report contains other milestones—some of the conference that they be legislated for in this Parliament changes that he wants to see put into place by 2013, for and that some of the changes might take place before example. John Vickers has done a good piece of work, that. We need to consider all these issues, but I think we and given a lot of thought to the issues, and I do not need to pay attention to the 2019 date that Vickers sets want to second-guess them just hours after he has out in his report. published his report. We will produce a full, detailed response to the report by the end of the year. Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con): I congratulate the Chancellor on this report, but I believe it takes for Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab): The Chancellor granted the adequacy of accounting standards. Will he has referred to Project Merlin, which is generally regarded look again at the incentives and risks inherent in the as a fairly ineffectual agreement, not least because, international financial reporting standard? according to Bank of England figures, net lending to small and medium-sized enterprises has contracted month Mr Osborne: Yes, I will certainly do that. One of the on month. Across the House, we can agree that it would discussions going on in international circles at the moment be undesirable for politicians to seek directly to run the is how to make all the various standard-setting bodies banks in which we have a public stake, but surely that more accountable. They are very powerful institutions should not preclude the Chancellor asking United Kingdom now and they are not really accountable to national Financial Investments Ltd to ensure that the banks Parliaments or international bodies that represent national change the culture that they exercise towards SMEs. Governments. Discussion is going on about how the When was the Chancellor’s last discussion with UKFI Financial Stability Board, which is the organisation about that? that brings together different banking areas and different countries to discuss regulation, might be able to make Mr Osborne: I talk to UKFI all the time, and one of the international accounting standards more accountable. the things I talk about is ensuring that the banks in which we have a public ownership of shares are meeting Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): Small and medium-sized their Merlin lending targets. I congratulate Lloyds, which enterprises are going to be at the heart of any future has changed its operations and advertising campaigns economic recovery. I went around a number of businesses and has tried to encourage small business lending. The 771 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 772 Report Report hon. Gentleman talks about targets, but again there is Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): The ICB’s ring-fencing complete amnesia that Labour were in government proposals are not so very different from the Glass–Steagall about 18 months ago. The previous Labour Government provisions that existed in the United States. I worked for introduced net lending targets, which he wants us to a United States bank under Glass–Steagall. I was also introduce, abandoned them after 12 months, after those there when Glass–Steagall was abolished in 1999, and targets were completely missed, and then said in the witnessed the adverse change in behaviour. On the basis House of Commons that they would introduce gross of my experience at the coalface, may I reassure the lending targets for two banks, RBS and Lloyds. We have Chancellor that he is right to welcome the proposals? not just stuck with the methodology that they developed, but have extended it to the entire banking system. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend—who wrote what I Before they criticise those trying to clear up the mess, thought was a very good piece for The Times, published Labour should remember what they did in office. on 9 September—has made a point based on his personal experience. I may or may not offend someone when Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): I say that he is probably the most senior former investment I welcome my right hon. Friend’s comment that we banker in the House of Commons. should not confuse the interests of bank shareholders with those of taxpayers. Should we not also remind ourselves, however, that unless the shareholders are Chris Ruane: There are none on this side. doing well, the bank balance sheets will not be doing well, and ultimately small business borrowers will not Mr Osborne: That is because they leave the House of be doing well. He is winning the argument on the Commons and go to work for investment banks. reforms, but will he reassure the House that he is My hon. Friend’s experience was that an investment mindful of the cost of capital of banks? By raising bank had many incentives to use retail deposits to business costs for banks, we would be in danger not subsidise its activity. That was not always right, and only of driving them offshore, but of raising the costs of Glass–Steagall helped to stop it. We are not reintroducing capital for UK business. Glass–Steagall, or introducing it in the United Kingdom; we have a different set of proposals which John Vickers Mr Osborne: Of course, that is the difficult balance has spent time developing, and I think that they meet that we all must get right. The challenge is to ensure the challenge that my hon. Friend set out in his article. that banks can lend well, as people have been asking them to, while at the same time ensuring that they have Sir Stuart Bell (Middlesbrough) (Lab): The House a greater cushion should things go wrong. In his report, will certainly have welcomed the statement that retail one of the things that John Vickers points to is that if a banks are likely in the future to funnel their deposits bank is ring-fenced, its retail deposits are more likely to into domestic lending rather than the vast maw of the be used to support retail lending than to support an money markets. The Chancellor has said that there investment bank’s activities. He thinks that the ring ought to be 10% capital for the retail banks. Presumably fence could positively enhance lending opportunities that is high-quality equity, and it is reported that a for ring-fenced banks. further 10% of non-equity may be required. May I ask the Chancellor to ensure that the capital requirements Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab): Given that Northern are no greater than those of Basel III? Too tall a Rock had no investment arm and Lehmans had no requirement might cut across growth, and cut across retail arm, does the Chancellor have any sympathy with lending to the small and medium-sized business sector. the view that ring-fencing will add little over the proper capital requirements and ethical investment decisions that Vickers calls for, save for £6 billion additional cost Mr Osborne: The 10% capital requirement against to the UK economy? risk-weighted assets is based on the same definition as, and goes a bit beyond, the Basel rules, which recommend Mr Osborne: The short answer is no, I do not. On 7%. At present, however, the Financial Stability Board pages 31, 32 and 33, the report of John Vickers and his is developing proposals to add 2.5% for large, systemically commission goes through how the reforms would have important banks such as RBS and Barclays. The difference improved the situation regarding Northern Rock, Lehman will be between 9.5% and 10%, which is quite close, for Brothers, RBS and HBOS. We must remember that the the retail ring-fenced side. On the investment side, as I reforms are in the round. I have been asked a lot about have said, the commission does not recommend going ring-fencing and retail lending, but there are also higher beyond the international rules in order to keep London capital requirements, and a requirement for a loss-absorbing competitive. cushion for bondholders. Those changes would also have helped with Northern Rock. On top of that, the Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con): On that point, let me new regulatory regime would, I hope, have exercised say that I welcome the careful timetable that has been more judgment. set out. That is particularly important when the Government Of course, the ring-fencing idea, which is just one of are prepared to act unilaterally, which the last Government the four or five major recommendations, is only really were not prepared to do. relevant to universal banks. The only universal bank May I urge the Chancellor, when faced with the listed by the hon. Gentleman that went wrong is RBS. inevitable whinging from banks saying that they are As is clear from the memoirs of the former Chancellor, considering leaving the United Kingdom, to bear it in ring-fencing would have helped enormously to resolve mind that the UK retail business is unbelievably profitable, the problems of a very complex universal bank without and to say that banks that want to leave should exit the need for recourse to the taxpayer. their business or be invited to do so? 773 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 774 Report Report Mr Osborne: I agree with my hon. Friend that London benefits that include the benefits of having an environment and the United Kingdom constitute a very attractive in which banks are seen as more stable and the benefit place in which to locate a universal bank. We have what to the UK economy of retail banks using their retail I think will be the best regulatory regime in the world, deposits to support retail lending. with the best regulators. We also have a good rule of law. This is a good place in which to live, and it happens Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Some 100,000 jobs to have a good time zone as well. All those factors make in Edinburgh are reliant on the financial services sector, it a very good place from which to run financial services. including many tens of thousands in my constituency. How can the Chancellor reassure the House and my Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East constituents that the banks will not pay the cost of Cleveland) (Lab): The Chancellor may recall that the implementing the Vickers report recommendations by coalition agreement called for net lending targets for the cutting my constituents’ jobs? nationalised banks. Why did the Project Merlin deal involve much weaker targets for gross lending? Mr Osborne: Of course, one of the groups of people who are the innocent victims of what went wrong are Mr Osborne: Net lending targets were tried by the the many people who worked in the branches of banks previous Government, and when we looked at that in such as RBS and HBOS throughout the country and detail on coming into office, we saw why they had failed who lost their jobs even though they were not investment so spectacularly, and decided not to repeat the mistake. bankers, working in the City of London, or trading mortgage derivatives and so forth. I hope that we can Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon) (Con): May I now build a successful and competitive banking system commend the Chancellor on setting up the commission that, in Scotland and elsewhere, hires people, opens and on making such an unambiguous statement today? branches and reverses the trend of recent years. Such Will he confirm that he has the full backing of the groups of people have definitely been the innocent Government, and that No. 10 will not be unleashing the victims of what went wrong and we must do right by “forces of hell” on No. 11? them.

Mr Osborne: One thing that has dramatically changed Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con): What under this Government is the relationship between those impact does my right hon. Friend think these generally in No. 10 and No. 11. We not only talk to each other, welcome proposals will have on the timing of the return but also occasionally share a friendly drink. of our nationalised banks to the private sector? Mr Osborne: Of course, we all want to see the return Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): The of the banks to the private sector. If truth be told, the commission appears to have diluted its interim proposal big fall in recent months in the share prices of these to place a duty on the regulator to promote competition, banks and others—American and European—around but the Treasury Committee stated in its report on this the world have pushed that timetable back a little further. subject that that was a crucial recommendation. The I do not think that that is a surprise to anyone. Our Chancellor has mentioned the importance of competition objective is to get these banks back into private hands, on numerous occasions today. Will he look again at this and Northern Rock—the good part of Northern Rock, recommendation and ensure that we maximise the I should stress—is currently up for sale. opportunities to improve competition in the market for the benefit of consumers and taxpayers? Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): Many of my constituents worked for HBOS, and some of Mr Osborne: I do not think the hon. Gentleman is them still work for Lloyds TSB. Many of them—and being entirely fair. A specific part of the report deals many people throughout the country—would like to with the remit of the new Financial Conduct Authority, know whether the Banking Commission report will do and it says that—although we have changed our proposal anything to change the values and culture of the banking in the light of the interim report, as I announced at the sector, which to them seems to have been characterised Mansion House—we could go further and make the by greed, selfishness and irresponsibility. Is there anything requirement to promote competition an overriding duty in this report that will lead the sector to have higher on the authority. We should look at that over the next standards of moral values and behaviour? couple of months. I would welcome the input of the Select Committee, and we could respond later this year. Mr Osborne: It will help to see a return of relationship banking, which disappeared over not just the past few Matthew Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con): On the impact years, but the past few decades. It will also make the of these reforms on lending, does the Chancellor agree people running large banks more focused on their retail that bad banks are bad for growth too, and therefore arms and on delivering a good customer service. The strengthening our banks and financial services industry, arrival of new faces on the high street will also help to as proposed in the report, is good for the UK economy? do that, because it will make people up their game. I am not sure that I would describe this as a return to Mr Osborne: Yes, in short: I agree with my hon. “Captain Mainwaring banking”, as it is sometimes Friend. John Vickers and his commissioners explicitly described, because, as I recall from “Dad’s Army”, he address the costs and benefits of these changes, and was not very good at running anything. What we actually although they accept that there will be some additional want is good relationship banking where banks understand costs, they will be more than outweighed by the broader their customers— 775 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Independent Banking Commission 776 Report Report Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): We’re all doomed. event of an investment bank, such as Lehman’s, collapsing? Does he accept that we will remain in a situation where Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman says we’re all bankers can take irresponsible risks and receive massive doomed, but the idea of these reforms is to ensure that bonuses if they come up trumps, and where the taxpayer we are not doomed in the future. will continue to have to pay out if they go down?

Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con): Following on from Mr Osborne: The hon. Gentleman is being unnecessarily the Chancellor’s answer to the hon. Member for defeatist. I do not see why we cannot construct a regime Middlesbrough (Sir Stuart Bell), the figures in the Vickers that means we do not have to bail out banks when they report indicate that there will need to be between £200 billion fail. There are a number of different parts to this: and £400 billion of equity capital and other funds at requiring banks to hold more capital, including requiring risk within the ring fence. What impact will that have on people who hold bonds in the bank, as well as shareholders, the provision of capital and credit to business? to suffer a loss should the bank fail; the role of the regulator in preventing banks from doing stupid things, Mr Osborne: John Vickers explicitly examines the such as buying a big Dutch investment bank once the argument that this will somehow undermine credit and credit markets had already frozen up; and the proposals comes to the conclusion that it will not. He says that, on ring-fencing. We have to work to get to a system first, because the broader benefits of a stable banking where we are not standing behind banks that are too big system to the banks themselves and to the economy to fail. If that were the case, we would end up with a outweigh the costs and, secondly, because retail banks banking system that is just a utility, and that would will, as I say, be more encouraged to use their retail change the way in which banking interacts with our deposits to support retail lending. economy. We want banking to be successful and to be out there lending, but we want it to be properly regulated Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): One of the and we want to make sure that we do not have to stand forms of banking competition that many people in behind it. Britain want is the encouragement of more mutuals, with a legal safeguard to prevent them from being Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) refloated. What plans does the Chancellor have to progress (Con): I very much associate myself with the remarks that agenda? about mutuals and credit unions, but I want to ask the Chancellor about what the commission says about Mr Osborne: We do want to see more mutuals competition, for which it has some excellent created—we have explicitly said that in relation to Northern recommendations and it is all too easy to think that Rock, while not ruling out other potential options for they apply merely to the retail sector. Does the Chancellor Northern Rock. We have also taken action to strengthen support the idea that we should be taking the wholesale credit unions, which are another part of the piece. It will sector as seriously as the retail sector, given that be good to see mutuals growing, and the proposals in equity underwriting fees, for example, have gone from the report, particularly those on competition and the 2% 20 years ago to something like 4%, 5% or even switching of current accounts, will help the mutual 6% today? sector. Mr Osborne: My hon. Friend is right to raise the Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con): I welcome the issue of competition in the investment banking sector. Chancellor’s considered response to the Vickers report. It is not often talked about outside the pages of the Will he comment on the implications of the proposed Financial Times, but it can be very uncompetitive, the reforms for his strategy of rebalancing the UK economy fees can be exceptionally high and there is that old towards manufacturing and regions outside London maxim that no one ever got fired for hiring Goldman and the south-east? Sachs. The report will enable Britain to remain a home of competitive investment banking while protecting Mr Osborne: The proposals will help because they retail customers. That should encourage new entrants will mean that these universal banks will have retail and the driving down the prices of the fees that are banking arms, in a ring fence, that are very focused on charged. That would all be a good thing. getting lending going to the economy outside the centre of London. We may think of it like this: the boss of the Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab): In the Royal Bank of Scotland a couple of years ago would first six months of this year, the five major UK banks have had someone running NatWest—running a ring-fenced lent £63 billion to non-financial corporations, excluding subsidiary—who would have been totally focused on small and medium-sized enterprises. The Vickers trying to get NatWest lending as a successful retail recommendations would not oblige the banks to protect bank, rather than worrying about whether they could that lending via the 10% capital requirement for retail take over a Dutch investment bank. The ring fence will banks within the ring fence. Does the Chancellor agree mean that parts of a universal bank will be extremely with that recommendation, which would contribute to focused on getting support to businesses, in the black up to two thirds of all bank balance sheet holdings country and elsewhere. being outside the protection of the ring fence?

Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Eight Mr Osborne: Again, I think we should trust the years is a long time, given that we are facing a sovereign judgment of John Vickers and his commissioners. They debt crisis across Europe and, possibly, the end of the explicitly considered whether to prescribe more closely euro in that time frame. Does the Chancellor accept than they have the scope of the ring fence—I am not that the taxpayer will continue to foot the bill in the talking about the height now, but the scope—and whether 777 Independent Banking Commission 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 778 Report [Mr George Osborne] Points of Order to include lending to larger corporates inside or outside 4.43 pm it. They decided to leave that open to the banks. We will consider that advice and recommendation, but it strikes John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab): On a me as quite sensible to have some flexibility about the point of order, Mr Speaker. Last week, this House was scope, if not necessarily the height, of the ring fence. asked to debate, amend and agree the Health and Social Care Bill. We were asked to scrutinise that legislation Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): I welcome the with no updated information on the costs and consequences Chancellor’s statement this afternoon. The availability of the biggest reorganisation in NHS history because of lending for small businesses and competition and the Government had promised a new impact assessment personal banking are as significant to my constituents but had not published it before the debate. It was then as they are to those of other Members. In Northern smuggled out with no press statement the very next day Ireland, however, both are impacted on directly by the and it shows that savings are planned at £2 billion less, it Irish banks. What aspects of the report could inform shows that the new economic regulator, Monitor, is set the ongoing discussions with the Irish Government to to have 600 staff at an average cost of £84,000 each and, ensure that those issues are effectively addressed for most importantly to this House, on page three it shows Northern Ireland businesses and individuals? that the Minister signed it off on 1 September, a full five days before the debate in this House. It is a disgrace that Mr Osborne: We are in near-constant discussion with these facts were kept hidden from the House and the the Irish authorities about the Irish banks and their public before such a critical and controversial debate. In impact on the rest of the UK, including, of course, the light of page 447 of “Erskine May”, can you advise Northern Ireland. In the next few weeks, the UK will this House whether the Government have followed the disburse the first part of its loan to Ireland, which proper parliamentary procedure and of what steps can formed part of the Bill that was passed through this be taken to stop such abuse in the future? House at the end of last year. Because we passed that Bill and made the loan to Ireland, we are around the Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman table having that discussion all the time with the Irish for giving me notice of his point of order. He has made authorities about the impact of the Irish banks on the his point and it will have been heard by those on the rest of the UK. I do not think we would be at that table Treasury Bench. Although the release of such information if we had not made that loan and I assure the hon. Lady is a matter for the Government rather than for the that both I and the Financial Secretary have been Chair, I can tell him and the House that I do attach spending a huge amount of time on the Irish banks and importance to the timely provision of information to we are well aware of the impact on Northern Ireland. If the House, which is both courteous to Members and she wants to talk to us about that at any time, we would helpful in their deliberations. It is fortunate for the right be very willing to have that meeting. hon. Gentleman and the House that at the time of his raising his point of order—this may not be a coincidence— Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the Chancellor. the Leader of the House was sitting on the Treasury Bench. The Leader of the House is as courteous a man as is to be found on either side of the Chamber; he attaches importance to these matters and though he may not wish to respond to the point of order now, I can assure the House that he will have heard it.

The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young) indicated assent.

Mr Speaker: I am grateful to him for hearing it.

Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to a written question regarding Government policy on equality issues relating to gender- specific dress codes in the workplace, I was rather surprised when the Home Secretary replied outlining what she was wearing on the day in question—a grey trouser suit and some shoes from L. K. Bennett—and mentioned her personal preference for smart dress and her belief that such dress had never hampered her career. Intrigued, I inquired at the Table Office whether I could seek regular sartorial insights from Ministers via written questions. I was advised that because the choices Ministers make before leaving home, such as “whether to wash, shave or wear blue underpants” are entirely personal and are not part of their ministerial responsibility or subject to Government policy, it would not be in order for me to do so. Is it therefore in order for a Minister to answer an entirely orderly and serious 779 Points of Order 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 780 question regarding Government policy on an issue that Police Reform and Social Responsibility has been raised with me by a constituent with what is a Bill frivolous, albeit fascinating, fashion commentary? Consideration of Lords amendments Mr Speaker: The hon. Lady will understand immediately when I say that I do not regard myself as an authority Clause 1 on fashion. In response to points of order, I think an appropriate humility and self-denying ordinance on the POLICE AND CRIME COMMISSIONERS part of this Chair would be prudent and seemly. 4.49 pm Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Quite good ties though. The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert): I beg to move, That this House disagrees with Mr Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Lords amendment 1. his sedentary intervention on the subject of ties, about which I do not intend to expatiate now or at any time Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to consider from the Chair. Lords amendments 2 to 4 and 6, Government motions The hon. Lady kindly gave me notice of her point of to disagree, Government amendments (a) to (d) in lieu, order. What I would say to her, very seriously, is that the amendment (i) to Government amendment (a) in lieu content of answers to parliamentary questions is a and amendment (ii) to Government amendment (b) in matter for the Government and not the Chair, and there lieu. are very good reasons, which will be immediately apparent to Members, why that should be so. The Chair cannot Nick Herbert: This Government are determined to get into the business of acting as umpire or arbiter of swap bureaucratic control of the police for local democratic the merit or demerit of a particular answer—only on accountability, replacing police authorities with directly the question of whether it is orderly. However, if the elected commissioners. In the past there has been too hon. Lady is dissatisfied with the answer, she should much central interference with decisions that should contact the Table Office to find other and perhaps have been taken locally and by professionals, yet too further ways of pursuing the matter to obtain the often the centre has been weak where it needed to be satisfaction she seeks. strong, such as in ensuring the fight against serious and organised crime or better co-ordination between forces. Our aim is to reverse this position, giving greater freedom POLICE REFORM AND SOCIAL to professionals to do their job and sweeping away RESPONSIBILITY BILL (PROGRAMME) (NO. 3) central interference and bureaucracy, while re-focusing Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing the Home Office on key priorities and threats. Order No. 83A(7)), But we cannot just take away central direction and That the following provisions shall apply to the Police Reform leave the police to get on with it. Like any public service, and Social Responsibility Bill for the purpose of supplementing the police must answer to someone. Politicians do not the Orders of 13 December 2010 and 30 March 2011 (Police and should not run the police, but they should and they Reform and Social Responsibility Bill (Programme) and Police must hold the police to account on behalf of the public Reform and Social Responsibility Bill (Programme) (No. 2)): whom the police serve. Officers must be accountable for Consideration of Lords Amendments their actions and forces must be accountable for their 1. Proceedings on consideration of Lords Amendments shall performance. Both parties in the coalition were committed be taken at this day’s sitting in the order shown in the first in their manifestos at the last election, in differing ways, column of the following Table. to enhancing the democratic accountability of policing. 2. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) The coalition agreement pledged the introduction of be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second directly elected individuals, subject to strict checks and column of the Table. balances, by locally elected representatives. TABLE The Bill seeks to establish clear and democratically accountable leadership for police governance, but Lords Amendments Time for conclusion of proceedings amendments in another place would remove those Nos. 1 to 4 and 6 8.00 pm provisions. The Lords amendments do not try to increase Nos. 5, 7 to 52, 54, 55, 58, 60 to 10.00 pm the local accountability of the police. They do not even 168, 53, 56, 57, 59, 169 and 170 try to ensure that there are adequate checks and balances in place. They amendments simply say that the status Subsequent stages quo should be preserved and that the chair of a police 3. Any further Message from the Lords may be considered authority should be called a police and crime commissioner. forthwith without any Question being put. This re-branding of the status quo will not suffice. 4. The proceedings on any further Message from the Lords The whole purpose of the Government’s reform and shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion one hour after their commencement.—(Stephen its strength is that local councillors will still be involved Crabb.) in the governance of policing, but an elected individual, with a mandate from the people, will take the executive Question agreed to. decisions. Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): The Minister is preaching a great sermon on how everything will be transformed by the creation of commissioners, but my concern is that what he means by the word “local” is not at all 781 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 782 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Chris Bryant] arrangements in London. The Metropolitan police have national policing responsibilities and therefore answer what is going to be brought about. The South Wales in part to the Home Secretary, which makes them police force area covering Swansea and Cardiff—two unique. However, the reforms in London to give greater cities that have never particularly loved each other—and local accountability have been popular with the public, large chunks of the valleys, which have a very different and it is that principle that we seek to extend. Indeed, policing agenda from those two cities, could not possibly the principle of having one accountable individual directly be constituted as a single political unit by anybody responsible for the totality of force activity is crucial to who was starting afresh. So my worry is that there will the Government’s vision. Policing governance by committee be less political accountability to local people and more has led to an unelected body having power over the accountability to one individual, who will probably be precept, with no one being properly held to account for more likely to represent somebody in Cardiff and Swansea decisions or poor performance and no one truly being than somebody in the valleys. in charge.

Nick Herbert: Although I think there is a serious Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): The Minister debate to be had, I disagree with the hon. Gentleman states that this whole idea is popular. What does he base for a number of reasons, principally that he may be that on, because all the information I have seen indicates making an argument for smaller forces—that is not a that the public do not want this? proposal that the Government are making, or one that, I suspect, the Opposition would support—but if a single Nick Herbert: If the hon. Gentleman had been paying chief constable can be in charge of that whole force and attention, he would know that I was talking about the be responsible for the operation of the force across the popularity of the reform that his Government introduced varied area that the hon. Gentleman describes, why should —the introduction of the Mayor of London. Evidence not a single individual be capable of holding that chief from opinion polls shows that a large majority of the constable to account? In London we have seen the Mayor public welcome the idea of enhanced local accountability taking responsibility for policing over a very much for policing. greater population, including a diverse population with The public have not had a voice. As the shadow a large number of local authority components. policing Minister, the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), has pointed out: Chris Bryant: What I have found in the past few years “Under the current system, 93 per cent of the country has no in South Wales police is that although it is true that the direct, elected representation.” chief constable is not particularly accountable, what has Indeed, only 7% of wards in England and Wales are made the police accountable is the local PACT—Police represented on a police authority, so it is no surprise and Communities Together—meetings, where members that only 7% of the public understand that they can of the public get to know they can get in touch with approach their police authority if they are dissatisfied their local beat police officer. It is that transformation with policing. Most people have no clue who their of the police that will render policing far more effective, police authority chair is. How can a body be an effective rather than the somewhat bureaucratic system that the link between the police and the people if it is invisible to Minister is setting up. the people? I agree with the former policing Minister, who said that people must “know who to go to” and be Nick Herbert: We are hardly setting up a bureaucratic system. It is one that involves direct democratic “able to influence their policing through the ballot box.” accountability. The two things that the hon. Gentleman That was the hon. Member for Gedling. describes are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to Some say that this visibility does not matter and, maintain neighbourhood policing and local accountability provided that a wise committee takes the right decisions, while still introducing direct democratic accountability there is no need to refer to the people. That is the and governance, for the reasons that I set out. argument that favours rule by quangos over democratic decision making. The defenders of the current system Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op): of governance say that it works well, but I am afraid I must say that I disagree with my hon. Friend the that I disagree. Only four of the 22 inspected police Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) on the usefulness authorities were assessed by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of PACT meetings. The Minister referred to accountability of constabulary and the Audit Commission as performing and to the Metropolitan police. There is an issue with well in their most critical functions. I understand why the governance of the Metropolitan police, because police authorities oppose their own abolition, but there they do not and will not have a police commissioner, are few who believe that the authorities can remain in as that is part of the Mayor of London’s muddle of their current form. Even the Opposition do not share responsibilities. Of course, the Metropolitan police’s that view. activities go far beyond London and have implications not only for other parts of England but for Scotland Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome the Minister and Wales, yet we have a Mayor with devolved responsibility back to the Dispatch Box after his recent illness. We getting rid of a Metropolitan Police Commissioner. Is have missed him. There have been riots and both the there not a bit of a muddle over the accountability commissioner and the head of terrorism have resigned, issues right across this new pattern of policing? so the Minister’s re-emergence provides great stability for all of us who are interested in policing issues. I agree Nick Herbert: I do not accept that there is a muddle. with him about the invisibility of police authorities. The The right hon. Gentleman will know that it was the Home Affairs Committee considered this matter in the previous Government who set up the current governance last Parliament when the Government wanted to introduce 783 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 784 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill an element of election. What concerns me is the progress Chris Bryant: Will the right hon. Gentleman give on the protocol, which the Committee believed was way? extremely important in defining the relationship between the chief constable and the new police and crime Nick Herbert: I am just going to make a little more commissioner. If he does not plan to refer to this later progress. Let me deal with costs, and then I will come in his speech, will he tell us now what is happening back to the hon. Gentleman. about the protocol? The shadow Home Secretary says that the reform Nick Herbert: I share the right hon. Gentleman’s will cost “well over £100 million.” No, it will not. She concern to ensure that we get the protocol right. We reaches that figure by counting in the running costs of have made very good progress with it, and I will deal police authorities—money that, apparently, should not directly with those remarks, if I may, later in my speech. be spent. So, this is Labour’s latest policy: not just no I also thank him for his kind words. elections for those who hold the police to account, but no one to hold them to account at all—because, apparently, police authorities would go as well. 5pm The only additional cost of the Government’s reforms I was making the point that Opposition Members do is the cost of elections. That will normally be £50 million not share the view that police authorities can remain every four years, £12.5 million a year on average, or in their current form. Even the right hon. Member for 0.1% of what is spent on police forces. Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), hardly a champion—in so far as I am aware—of reform in any sphere, was Keith Vaz: The argument over the figure of £100 million forced to concede when shadow Home Secretary that will go on, but it is now accepted that the postponed police authorities were “not optimal”. Twice before, the election will cost £25 million, and that equates to 2,000 extra Labour party tried to reform police authorities and to police officers. introduce democratic accountability into policing, but it backed off in the face of vested interests. We intend to Nick Herbert: No. see this reform through. In Committee, the shadow policing Minister proposed Keith Vaz: The right hon. Gentleman may disagree, directly elected chairs of police authorities. He felt so but the fact that the postponed election will cost £25 million strongly that this was the right idea that he pushed it to is not in dispute, is it? the vote. So, there we have it: the Shadow Home Secretary says that Nick Herbert: I will come to that immediately. There “elected chiefs would make things worse.” will be a one-off additional cost for holding the elections The shadow police Minister says that in November next year, rather than in May, and the cost “only direct election...will deliver the strong connection to the will indeed increase: it will increase from 0.1% of police public which is critical.” spend to 0.15%, and then it will go back down to Which is it? 0.1% again. So, this is apparently the full weight of the The right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract Opposition’s argument: a delay in holding an election and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) claims that extremists will temporarily cost 0.05% of police spend. That is a might be elected, but why would that not happen under risible case. her own Front Benchers’ plans for directly elected chairs? We know what the shadow Minister thinks about the Mark Tami: But why is there a delay? The whole arguments that extremists might be elected. He has said House knows why: it is because the Liberal Democrats in past that those arguments are “ridiculous”—and do not want the elections on that day—despite the fact they are. that the Liberal Democrat leader has previously said The British National party polled just 2% of the that the electorate are perfectly capable of understanding national vote in the general election. It has never won different elections on the same day. direct election in any constituency larger than a local authority ward; and, in fact, it has never come better Nick Herbert: Hon. Members have spent their whole than third. It is simply inconceivable that the BNP time trying either to stop the reform or to delay it, and could win a majority of votes in an area as large as a now, when an introduction is delayed for a few months, police force area; inconceivable that a BNP candidate they apparently do not want that, either. would be one of two going forward to a count on The central point is that, in any case, the cost of second preferences; and inconceivable that they would elections is not going to come from police budgets. It is take sufficient second preferences from other parties to just nonsense to claim that the money for elections win. So, saying that extremists will win such elections, could instead be spent on police officers. That is a poor as the shadow Home Secretary has today, is silly and argument. It ill behoves an elected politician to complain irresponsible scaremongering, and she should stop it now. about the cost of democracy. It was Labour that made The right hon. Lady has also criticised the cost of the the police more accountable to a new Mayor of London. elections, but the shadow Minister’s proposal would The referendum itself cost £3 million to conduct, and actually cost more, and the truth is that Opposition the elections still cost £18 million every four years. Did Members know that they cannot defend the status quo. Labour then say that this money could be better spent They have three times supported democratic reform, on police officers? No, of course not. If greater democratic but they just do not want to admit it—just as they do accountability is a price worth paying in London for a not want to admit that they would cut police spending quarter of all policing, why not in the rest of the by more than £1 billion. country? 785 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 786 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab): The Minister will How many Londoners would prefer their police force to know that the impact assessment said originally that the answer to an invisible committee? Now the Opposition cost of elections was £50 million. He will also know are criticising the Mayor’s role in policing—well, they that the Prime Minister told us, and he has confirmed, invented it. Of course the Opposition do not like the that additional costs for the one-off election were another current Mayor. They may not like what he does, but that £25 million. Will he also confirm that the impact assessment is not a reason to dislike the office or to object to the contains £37 million of transition costs to the new same principle of greater democratic accountability arrangements, which do take the figure to over £100 million? being introduced in the rest of the country. Let us be clear: the Mayor does not run the police in Nick Herbert: No, I do not accept what the Opposition London; he holds them to account, and that is the have constantly been saying, which is that the overall principle that we are advancing. The British model of cost of this reform is over £100 million. That is based on impartial policing must be retained, and it will be retained. a figure that the Association of Police Authorities has Our aim is not to abandon the tripartite arrangement of been using, where it appears that it has been counting police governance between the Home Office, local two elections into the cost. I go back to the point that I representatives and forces but to rebalance it. have made: the only additional, ongoing cost in relation to this reform is the cost of holding elections. It is a very Keith Vaz: The name of the new Metropolitan police bad argument to suggest that a democratic reform commissioner has been announced as the Minister he should not go ahead simply because elections will cost has been speaking from the Dispatch Box, and I am money, and it is not an argument that Labour Members sure that the right hon. Gentleman will tell the House were willing to use in the past when they supported all who it is. I will leave it to him to make the announcement sorts of proposals for elections, including in relation to rather than me. [HON.MEMBERS: “Go on!”] No, no, no. I the Mayor of London. do not want to spoil the fun. [Interruption.] Perhaps I now give way to the hon. Member for Rhondda the Minister does not know, but it has just been announced. (Chris Bryant), who has been very patient. Will he assure the House that it was done with the full agreement of the Mayor of London, that there was no Chris Bryant: I have never supported the politicising dispute, and that we will all now be able to unite behind of the police, and I will not do so under the Minister’s the new commissioner, whose name, I think, is winging plans. My anxiety is that when a politician comes along, its way over to him as I speak? they usually do not just want a little office in the corner; they want lots of other people to service that office. I Nick Herbert: I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. suspect that the cost that he is allowing for now will be Gentleman, but I am not going to make an announcement hideously understated by the time we have had these before it is confirmed to me that the name has been people in place for four years. However, the bit that I formally announced. completely do not understand is why we have to have To prevent too much power from being vested in a elections next November. Surely, if we were trying to single individual, we are putting in place strict checks save money and one believed in having these elections, and balances. This is an important part of the argument. they should be at the same time as the other local The checks and balances include local police and crime elections six months later. panels with representatives from each local authority and independent members, which will have the power to Nick Herbert: I will come to that issue. However, I scrutinise the commissioner’s actions. District councils will say to the hon. Gentleman now that if the elections will have a stake in police governance for the first time. were delayed for a further six months to take them to They do not currently have that position in police May 2013, incoming police and crime commissioners authorities. The panels will have teeth. They will have would be unable to participate in the budget that would the power of veto over excessive precepts and the already have been set for that year. They would be appointment of chief constables, and they will have the unable to take the key decisions—[Interruption.] It will weapon of transparency. still be the case, even though the elections will be We have listened to concerns and have strengthened delayed by six months, that incoming police and crime the safeguards in the other place. I will go into the detail commissioners will be able to set the budget and the of those changes when we discuss them later. However, plan for the following year, as originally intended. I do I want to highlight three important areas where we have not accept that there would be no difference as a result listened, not least to the professional advice of senior of a delay until the following year. police officers, and acted. First, in response to the point made by the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee Chris Bryant rose— on the operational independence of the police, it is fundamental to the British system that the police remain Nick Herbert: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, operationally independent. No politician can tell a I am going to move on. constable—a sworn officer of the Crown—who to arrest. I want to come back to the issue of London’s Mayor, Forces will continue to be under the legal direction and which was much discussed in the other place, as it has control of their chief constable. There is no change in been here. I want to credit the Opposition for the those legal arrangements. creation of the office of Mayor, which, as I have said Since the Bill left this House, the Government have before, has been a popular reform. As we debate these published a draft protocol that clearly sets out the roles issues, the Mayor has been playing a key role in the of the chief constable and the police and crime decision over who will next lead the Metropolitan police. commissioner, and how they and the other actors, including He has given Londoners an important voice in policing. the police and crime panel, will interact. We did that 787 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 788 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill partly in response to the recommendation of the Home closely with the police service to ensure that that happens. Affairs Committee. Senior chief constables, including The passing of the Bill will by no means be the end of senior leaders of the Metropolitan police, welcomed the the conversation, but let me be clear: ensuring that publication of the draft protocol. They have said that it police forces can continue to deliver on national and provides clear direction on the future roles of chief strategic issues, and meet national threats, remains a constables, police and crime commissioners and the priority for me and for this Government. Home Secretary, and that it ensures the balance between operational independence and appropriate public accountability. I agree with chief constables that we 5.15 pm must include in the protocol the fact that the police and Thirdly, we will ensure that policing is not politicised. crime commissioner must set the strategic direction and We judge that it would be both wrong in principle and objectives of the force and decide the budget of the unworkable in practice to ban political parties from force, while being clear that chief constables remain fielding candidates as police and crime commissioners, operationally independent. although some suggested that. However, that does not We also amended the Bill in the other place to make it mean that party politics will be introduced into police a statutory requirement for the Home Secretary to issue forces. Commissioners will not be permitted to appoint the protocol. This work is not over. We will continue to political advisers. Police and crime commissioners will work closely with the Association of Chief Police Officers be permitted to direct officers to make an arrest no and others to ensure that the protocol covers all the more than a police authority is so permitted. They will necessary issues in the necessary depth. It is vital that not be permitted to sack or appoint officers other than we get this right. We have made tangible progress in chief constables. We have strengthened the safeguards ensuring that the operational independence of police relating to the dismissal of chiefs by ensuring that the officers will be protected under this Bill. police and crime panel hears from both the chief constable and the police and crime commissioner, as well as by ensuring that they have the opportunity to get advice Mark Tami rose— from Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary. Nick Herbert: I give way one last time to the hon. Additionally, we will ensure, through regulations, Gentleman. that proper procedures are put in place. Police and crime commissioners must have the power to dismiss chief constables, just as police authorities currently do, Mark Tami: Does the Minister not accept that somebody but we must guard against capricious decisions, and we standing in an election may well have a programme that will put in place the arrangements to ensure that we do will impact on operational independence? Does he not so. recognise that there could be such a clash? Chris Bryant rose— Nick Herbert: The protocol is intended to govern the relationship and it will be issued by the Home Secretary. The legal control and direction of the force will remain, Nick Herbert: I will give way quickly to the hon. as I said, with the chief constable. The protocol describes Gentleman, who can also have a final intervention. the appropriate legal arrangements. I have no doubt that, as we have seen in London, those who stand for Chris Bryant: If what the Minister says is true, how election will understand that. could Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, say that Secondly, we will ensure that policing in this country the phone hacking allegations were just codswallop, is able to deal with national threats. It has been suggested and that the police should not investigate because the that police and crime commissioners will be focused on story was dreamt up by the Labour party? local issues to the exclusion of those that require a strategic response, making them too parochial. I disagree. Nick Herbert: I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but PCCs will be responsible and accountable to the public I was reading a note and was not properly listening to for the totality of policing. However, the fight against what he said. Will he say it again? terrorism and against serious and organised crime is an area in which the central Government have a legitimate Chris Bryant: Do concentrate! If all of what the role. Minister says is true—that the police and their operational The new national crime agency, working with police independence should not be politicised—how can it be forces, will transform the fight against organised crime. right for the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, to say The Home Secretary will issue a strategic policing that the phone hacking allegations at the News of the requirement, which will guide forces on their responsibilities World were codswallop, and that the police should not for serious and cross-boundary policing challenges such investigate any further because it is a story got up by the as terrorism, organised crime, public order and responding Labour party? to major incidents and emergencies. Police and crime commissioners and chief constables will be under strong Nick Herbert: Surely the hon. Gentleman misses the duties to have regard to that requirement. This is not key point. First, the Mayor should not seek to direct an about addressing a problem created by the introduction investigation any more than the Home Secretary should. of police and crime commissioners. The strategic policing Secondly, the Mayor will be held accountable for all requirement, alongside the national crime agency, is a issues, which is what Londoners expect. The point is critical refocusing of the Government’s role to address that, before the Mayor, accountability was invisible. We an existing set of policing challenges for which the seek to introduce that greater accountability elsewhere. response to date has been lacking. We continue to work The issue is not whether the hon. Gentleman thinks that 789 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 790 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Nick Herbert] In respect of the amendment giving the Welsh Assembly the power to set the first election date in Wales, the the Mayor was right or wrong. There is now a figure Government have placed on the record, in this House who can be held accountable for the performance of the and another place, the efforts and negotiations in which Met. I took part and which we undertook with the Welsh Government in order that the National Assembly for Simon Hart (Carmarthen Westand South Pembrokeshire) Wales could play a stronger role within policing governance (Con): The Minister will know of the constabulary of in Wales. We have made it clear that we cannot legislate Dyfed-Powys police in west Wales. There are probably potentially to provide two different systems of governance 15 elected politicians of various parties representing within England and Wales. Moreover, we cannot withhold people for that area, including in the Welsh Assembly. from the people of Wales the necessary reform that will Does he agree that if there were any hint of a police give them a stronger voice and visible accountability for commissioner taking a political line, the 14 other elected how policing is delivered within their four police force members of various assemblies and Parliaments areas by delaying the implementation of these reforms would hold him to account and ensure that that did not until the National Assembly sees fit. As the House happen? knows—and, indeed, has determined through statute— policing remains a reserved matter and therefore the Nick Herbert: I agree with my hon. Friend. We are House shall decide when and how policing governance putting in place very strong accountability arrangements, will be delivered. That said, we hope soon to restart but also checks and balances and transparency. That constructive discussions with the Welsh Government so will ensure the visibility of decisions when they are that they can consider positively how to work in partnership taken. Panels of locally elected members will be able to with both PCCs and police and crime panels. hold the commissioner to account and to scrutinise the In conclusion, these reforms are essential to address decisions that are made. All of that will be done in full the democratic deficit in policing, to end the era of view of the public, in a way that the current proceedings central Government’s bureaucratic control, to reduce of police authorities simply are not. crime and antisocial behaviour and to drive value for I am afraid that I must briefly detain the House on money. There will be benefits all round. Chief constables other formal matters before us. In lieu of the Lords will be liberated from targets and central direction so amendments, I shall move a Government amendment that they can be crime fighters. Police officers will to re-establish the Secretary of State’s power to issue a benefit from a less bureaucratic system in which discretion financial management code of practice for police and is restored and someone close to their force has a strong crime commissioners. A code of practice is currently interest in driving out waste and prioritising the front issued to police authorities, which are required to have line. Local authorities will benefit from a continuing say regard to it in the discharge of their financial functions. in the governance of policing, and district councils will This enables the Home Office accounting officer to have a role for the first time. The taxpayer will see better assure Parliament that funds given to the Department value for value money as commissioners, who will have are used appropriately. responsibility for the precept, focus relentlessly on efficiency The Bill repeals the general power to issue codes of in their forces. Local policing will benefit from a strong practice to police authorities under which the existing democratic input, focusing attention on issues of public financial management code was issued. To ensure that concern. The Home Office will be focused on its proper we adhere to the principles of financial regularity, propriety role, especially to address national threats and to co-ordinate and value for money, we propose that the Bill be amended strategic action and collaboration between forces. Above to retain the power to issue codes of practice, but to all, the public will have a voice in how they are policed. restrict it to codes relating to financial matters only. The PCCs will have the mandate and the moral authority to code will set out to PCCs and chief constables how they reflect public concern about crime. are expected to conduct the financial management within In the end, the House has a choice. The shadow their force area and ensure good governance of public Home Secretary repeatedly described elected police funds, the majority of which falls within the ambit of commissioners as a “US-style reform”. It is striking the vote from this place. It will be the responsibility of that Labour seems to think that democratic election the Government to ensure that the code is fit for purpose and accountability are un-British. The Government and that it enables a PCC to set a budget that is trust the people to elect representatives to make the responsible and, crucially, responds to the needs of right decisions and to kick them out if they do not. It is their local communities and priorities. As such, I cannot strange that so many democrats are so wary of democracy. agree with the Opposition amendments. I believe that we can and should trust the people. Government amendment (b) in lieu of Lords amendments 1 to 4 and of Lords amendment 6 will move back the date of PCC elections by six months, Vernon Coaker: With the indulgence of the House, from May 2012 to November 2012, to allow more time let me start by endorsing the comments that the Chair to ensure that all the necessary preparations are in of the Home Affairs Committee made in welcoming place. That will give good quality candidates, including—I the Minister back to full health. I know that the hope—independents, the time to come forward, plan Minister has not been too well, and we missed him on and campaign. PCCs will still be able to lead the strategic the TV over the summer. In all sincerity, I am pleased planning for 2013-14, as originally proposed—that was that he is back and functioning well. the point I made to the hon. Member for Rhondda. However, I do not intend to let my feelings of good Thereafter, elections will revert to May every four years. will towards the Minister prevent me from saying that Reform in London can still take place early because the for a moment at the end of his speech it was like being Mayor is already in place. in church—the “Hallelujah Chorus” was all that was 791 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 792 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill needed to illustrate the promised land to which the dedicated their lives to the service of their communities Minister believes he is taking us. However, let us be and to policing in their communities who fundamentally clear about this: what we are doing is quite extraordinary. believe that the Government’s proposal is a bad reform. We are not just repairing a bit of damage or tweaking To dismiss them purely as people who do not want to that the Lords have done; what the Minister is having to vote themselves out of a job does them no service at all. do—and in a way that is hugely embarrassing for the Government—is reinsert in the Bill the whole concept Mr Burley: The hon. Gentleman says that there is no of police and crime commissioners. In other words, he support for the reform, but let me read him two quotations. is having to reinsert the absolutely fundamental principle The first is from the Lib Dems’ manifesto, which says of the Bill. on page 72 that they will However, one would not have known that from what “Give local people a real say over their police force through the the Minister said, which was that what we are doing direct election of police authorities.” today is nothing more than a tidying-up exercise—a bit This is the second quotation: of tweaking that the Government have found it necessary “only direct election, based on geographic constituencies, will to do to ensure that the Lords did not inadvertently deliver the strong connection to the public which is critical”. cause a problem that they had not intended. However, let us be clear: the Lords absolutely wanted to create a That was the hon. Gentleman himself, in a speech in problem for the Government on this issue. What they 2008. Rather than there being no support for reform, is were saying was that, unlike the Government, they it not true that the case for reform of police governance recognise that the proposal has absolutely no support in has been made right across the political spectrum? the country. The only people who support the policy are the Minister, a few of his friends, a couple of people at Vernon Coaker: I hope that the hon. Gentleman was No. 10 Downing street, a few Back Benchers, a couple not just reading that out; he normally does better than of think-tanks and the whipped masses, who we will no simply reading out Whips’ documents. He will remember, doubt see later. as I do, that in Committee the Liberal Democrats actually voted against their own amendments— Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD): Once.

Vernon Coaker: I will in a moment; I am just getting Vernon Coaker: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman going. If the hon. Gentleman lets me, I will make a few admits it. I have never known anyone vote against their points and then give way to him—he served on the own amendments, but there we go. Committee. One of my hon. Friends asked the Minister where the 5.30 pm evidence was that there was a demand for his proposal The hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) out there in the country. The answer was that there was will know that the Liberal Democrats did not propose none. I and many others have consistently asked the that one individual should be directly elected to hold Minister to publish the results of the public consultation the police to account. Their manifesto proposal was for on “Policing in the 21st Century”, a document to which directly elected police authorities, with a multiplicity of there were approximately 800 responses. We have not people holding the police to account. He will also be heard a word from a Minister about those 800 responses. aware that the Green Paper that the last Government I wonder why that is. I am sure that if a large number of introduced in 2008 proposed a model not totally dissimilar those responses had been in favour of the proposal, the from what the Liberal Democrats proposed at the last Minister would have published every one. However, he election. It is also interesting to witness the difference in cannot do that, because we know that very few of those approach between those who go out to consultation responses were in favour. This Government—who, we and listen to what people say, and those who go out to are told, are in favour of listening to the people, in this consultation and say, “We don’t care what you said. new dawn of not imposing things—say that in this We’re going to do this anyway.” instance they know best. The fact that nobody supports the proposal does not matter to the Minister. Mr Burley: I agree with nearly everything that the hon. Gentleman has just said. The point is that there is Mr Burley rose— cross-party agreement on the need for reform of police authorities, but there is disagreement on the form that Vernon Coaker: Don’t worry; I have not forgotten the the new model should take. hon. Gentleman. The same goes for councils. We have just heard about Vernon Coaker: I do not think there has ever been any the objections of the Local Government Association disagreement, either in Committee or in any of our and the Association of Police Authorities. The Minister’s other debates on police governance, about the need to answer to them is: “We don’t care what you say—you’re make police authorities more visible and find ways dinosaurs. You’re in the way of me reaching the promised of helping them to work more successfully in their land; you’re in the way of me reaching what I regard as neighbourhoods. That has never been in doubt. However, the best reform. You’re people who are out of touch. people have certain concerns relating to the introduction You will inevitably vote against this proposal because of direct elections—whether using the model involving it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas.” However, there a directly elected police authority, or the one involving a are individuals on those local councils and police directly elected individual—and I will discuss those authorities—members of all parties or none—who have worries in due course. 793 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 794 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Vernon Coaker] Vernon Coaker: Obviously, people try to influence what the police do. I have no problem with that and, of The Minister has failed to provide the House with the course, I sat on some of the summits that the Prime evidence for why the Government are taking forward Minister called, which brought chief constables together these reforms. He says that there is support for them, to deal with a national issue of importance and concern. but he has failed to put any evidence for that before the What is different is where someone is elected on a House. Let us look at the detail of the Bill. Interestingly, manifesto at a local level, which might contain specific when the Minister argues against the points that have commitments about what should happen in that local been made on this matter, he simply says that people are area. That is the fundamental difference between those wrong, and that he does not agree with them. However, circumstances and what the Bill proposes. we all know that there are serious issues involved that need to be addressed. He and the Liberal Democrats Mr Burley: Could not a local person stand on a might have sorted out a way of getting the Bill through, platform of cracking down on knife crime in the local but that does not negate the real concerns that were area? What is the difference between that local person mentioned by Members on both sides in Committee saying that and a democratically elected Prime Minister and that have been mentioned again since. doing the same at the national level? The Minister says that there is no way in which a police and crime commissioner would be able to influence Vernon Coaker: Because the person will have a specific a chief constable or interfere with the operational local democratic mandate and will have been elected on independence of the police. He dismisses the politicisation certain pledges, it is different from a Prime Minister or argument with a sweep of his hand, but he knows that other national politicians responding to a problem that real concerns have been expressed about operational has arisen and working with the police to try to deal independence and politicisation. It is worth repeating with it. The context is totally different. some of the points that have been made. Let us imagine that, if the Bill is passed, an election will take place at some time in the distant future, perhaps on 15 November Mark Tami: Before my hon. Friend moves away from 2012 or on the first Thursday in May 2013. What are specialist units, their work is very important, but the the manifesto commitments that the candidates for general public might not see what those officers are police and crime commissioner are going to stand on? doing in the local area. Such units are often set up They are not going to stand on the promise of a better because of the failings of traditional policing after counter-terrorism policy or a decent fraud policy for tragic events like the Soham murders or other instances the pensioners of their area. What they are going to when the police forces might have failed to work effectively stand on is something like, “We want to see police together. stations kept open in our community” or “We want to see more visible police officers going up and down our Vernon Coaker: That is the point I am making. Front-line streets every single day”. That is the sort of manifesto officers are not just uniformed officers visible on the on which police and crime commissioners will stand. street; they might include officers in the specialist units By putting these provisions back into the Bill, the to which my hon. Friend refers. I agree that they are Minister makes it difficult for us to believe that there particularly important. will not be a conflict between someone elected on a manifesto like that and a chief constable who says, “Hang Alun Michael: Does my hon. Friend agree that there on a minute. I don’t think that is the right policing is a big difference between this and the approach adopted priority for this area. The right policing priority for this under the Labour Government, which was about area is not having police in that neighbourhood. My highlighting a problem or concern when something professional judgment says that they should be placed needed to be done? It was about how to hear from the here and there. I am going to take some officers from police and how to learn from them about what was their duty in that neighbourhood and put them into a needed to tackle issues like antisocial behaviour, for domestic or sexual violence unit or a fraud unit. These instance, thereby providing the tools necessary to do the will be front-line officers, but not in the sense of being job. It was about teamwork between the Government visible, uniformed officers on the street.” the police, which contrasts greatly with what is happening now. Mark Tami: Will my hon. Friend give way?

Vernon Coaker: I said that I would give way to the Vernon Coaker: That is absolutely right. The teamwork, hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) first. collaboration and partnership working was, I think, one of the consequences of a Bill that my right hon. Mr Burley: The hon. Gentleman makes an important Friend took through in 1998. I believe that was one of point, but he lulls us into thinking that this is a new the most successful reforms carried out under the last thing. Was not Tony Blair’s summit on knife crime Government. when he was Prime Minister—when he called all the Let me deal with a fundamental issue that will be chief constables to No. 10 Downing street to discuss dealt with more fully in the next group of amendments. what could be done about that crime—an example of a It is important, so I shall refer to it now, as it is one of politician quite rightly reflecting public concern over a the crucial issues on which the hon. Member for Cannock type of crime and influencing the police to do something Chase might want to reflect further. When Tony Blair about it? Is that not exactly the same as the power of was Prime Minister, one thing he could not do was sack influence that the police and crime commissioners will chief constables in individual areas. Under the Bill, have, and is it not a good thing? however, the police and crime commissioner will be 795 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 796 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill able to sack the chief constable, without the police and to be overcome. We have heard from Devon and Cornwall crime panel having any power to control it. That is an and Avon and Somerset about this issue of size, yet the important difference; in my view, it is a big flaw in Minister just says that it will not be a problem. We also the Bill. learn from the Minister that he believes that the Bill contains proper checks and balances and that, therefore, Keith Vaz: Is my hon. Friend as puzzled as I am that the reinstatement of the provision is not a problem. although, apparently, the new Metropolitan Police However, he fails to point out to Members that the Commissioner has had a photo call with the Home police and crime panel has only two powers. One—to be Secretary—before she came into the Chamber—and fair to the Government, they have amended the majority the policing Minister has been at the Dispatch Box, that is required from three quarters to two thirds—is there still has not been an announcement to Parliament the veto over the appointment of the chief constable, of the new appointment. Everyone knows that it is and the other is the veto over the precept. That is it. The Mr Hogan-Howe, but apparently the House of Commons police and crime panel has no other power. The policing does not know. Has my hon. Friend been told the name Minister wants us to disagree with the Lords amendments of the new Metropolitan Police Commissioner? on the basis of his assertion that the Bill contains proper checks and balances, but I say to him that the Vernon Coaker: I have been told now. police and crime panel has only two real powers to hold the police and crime commissioner to account. Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): Order. It might be helpful if Vernon Coaker gave way to the Home Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con): Is not Secretary. the hon. Gentleman doing a disservice to the future police and crime panels? They will doubtless be composed Vernon Coaker: I give way to the Home Secretary. of notable members of the community, perhaps with expertise in crime and the justice system, and they will The Secretary of State for the Home Department have an incredible platform from which to address the (Mrs Theresa May): Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. local media and engage in a debate on local television and radio. I envisage that kind of check and balance on I am tempted to say that there is no need for me to a potentially wayward police and crime commissioner rise to my feet now, given that the Chairman of the coming from the panels. So they will not have just two Home Affairs Committee has given the name of the powers; they will probably have three, the third being new commissioner. As I have just come into the Chamber, the power of voice. the policing Minister and I were discussing the best way to announce to the House the appointment of Bernard Hogan-Howe as Metropolitan Police Commissioner. 5.45 pm He is the former chief constable of Merseyside, where Vernon Coaker: Of course they will have the power of he had a fine record of crime fighting, seeing crime voice. I have the power of voice here, but I shall still lose levels go down by just under 40% over three to four the vote, unless something goes dramatically wrong. I years. I am sure that he will bring that crime-fighting can still argue for what I think is right, but at the end of capability to London and the Metropolitan police. the day a police and crime panel will have no real sanction or power to change what a police and crime Alun Michael: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. commissioner is doing if it believes it to be wrong, apart It is good that the Home Secretary has now spoken to from the two specific powers that I have mentioned. As the House, but before this debate, when the Chancellor will become clear when we debate the next group of was at the Dispatch Box, the new commissioner’s amendments, the panel will not even have the power to appointment was widely publicised on television. So, as veto the sacking of a chief constable. The police and my right hon. Friend the Chairman of the Home Affairs crime commissioner will have a completely unfettered Committee was suggesting, the appointment has not power. come to the attention of the House as quickly as it The Minister told us that the Government had listened should have. to what the Lords had said, and that a chief constable who was to be sacked would be able to go to the police Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): The right and crime panel and tell it why the police and crime hon. Gentleman has been in the House a long time and commissioner was wrong. The panel would not have will recognise that that is not a point of order. He has any power to do anything about it, but the chief constable put his point on the record. could make representations to it. That might be a good thing, but it does not alter the fact that a chief constable Vernon Coaker: On behalf of the shadow Home in that position would have no proper right of appeal. Secretary, myself, and all Members of the House, may I The hon. Gentleman is right in saying that the police wish Mr Hogan-Howe well in his new role as commissioner and crime panel can say what it thinks, but ultimately it and in the important job of work that he will have to can be ignored by the police and crime commissioner, do? except in the two specific instances that I have mentioned. The issue of the politicisation of operational independence is important, but Members have also Simon Hart: In what circumstances does the hon. referred to the huge problems that will be caused by Gentleman believe that a police and crime commissioner having one police and crime commissioner to represent would go solo and make a serious decision like that such a large number of areas and communities. Despite against all the interests of the community and, indeed, that, the Government are reinserting the proposal in the the other elected politicians and councillors who might Bill with no indication of how they expect such problems reside in the area? How likely is that to happen? 797 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 798 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Vernon Coaker: There are a number of possible examples. delay things until November. Moreover, members of Let me give the hon. Gentleman one of them. If an that commission have said that the cost of such a delay election is approaching and a chief constable is refusing would be significant. to follow the priorities on which someone intends to I therefore ask the Minister to tell us how on earth stand, what would prevent that person from saying to the Government have arrived at that date. Why are they the chief constable, “Unless you announce that you will delaying the elections? Is there any truth in the newspaper introduce neighbourhood policing, put bobbies on the reports that it was in order to ensure that the Liberals beat and keep this police station open, all of which I voted for the Bill in totality? Is this another example of will include in my manifesto, I will sack you”? There is the tail wagging the dog? no power for anyone to stop a police and crime commissioner from doing that to a chief constable. Steve McCabe: If we give the Government the benefit I know that the hon. Gentleman takes a keen interest of the doubt and accept that the delay is to allow more in this matter, and I know that he would be as anxious time for candidates to campaign and make themselves about such circumstances as I would be. He may think known to the public and for the untried and untested that they will never arise, but he and I both know that arrangements to be developed to the point where they many situations arise that were not predicted. I should might actually be implemented, would it not make have thought that any Government would want at least sense to delay the elections until at least May 2013? to include a provision ensuring that police and crime That would enable the Government to increase the commissioners did not have an unfettered power, but as turnout and save on cost, whereas what they are doing the Bill stands it is completely unfettered. is reducing the chances of a high turnout and increasing the cost, which seems completely nonsensical? Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend think that the Mayor of London has Vernon Coaker: I agree with my hon. Friend about already demonstrated such circumstances in managing the logic of the Government arriving at the date of to get rid of two commissioners of the Metropolitan 15 November. In speaking to the amendment in question, police? the Minister in effect just said, “We’re changing the date,” in what amounted to not much more than a shrug-of- Vernon Coaker: My hon. Friend’s point speaks for the-shoulders argument. The House deserved more than itself. It illustrates some of the problems that can arise that, because many people say that if we are going to in connection with police and crime commissioners. delay this, it is much more sensible to delay until May 2013. Why has this date been chosen? Why is it so special? I will not rehearse all of what has been said before, What discussions have taken place with the Liberals? but the Minister has asked us to disagree with the Lords in their amendment, and to reinsert the original proposals There has been much debate about the cost of the on police and crime commissioners in the Bill. The “one elections. How has the figure of £25 million been arrived person” argument, the “operational independence” at? The Government have accepted the sum of £50 million, argument and the politicisation argument are all still and £25 million is now to be added to that. As shown there, as is the lack of power for the police and crime by Channel 4’s “FactCheck”, there is now a debate. We panel—the fact that it is a toothless watchdog—yet the have also seen that a referendum that was held on the Minister is telling us that he is right, and that everyone same day as other elections cost £89 million. Admittedly, else is wrong. In their amendment 6 on the police that did not include Scotland, and this arrangement is commission model, the Lords attempt to overcome some just for England and Wales. of the existing problems—such as having one omnipotent Again, there is no proper explanation, and that fault person, as the Government would like—by ensuring runs all the way through the Bill. Most of the time the that the police and crime panel is established as set out Minister relies on assertion and saying, “This is the in the Bill and that the police and crime commissioner is right thing to do” or “I don’t agree with what other appointed from among that group of people. people say.” Very little evidence is given, and there is This group of amendments also addresses the delayed seldom any resort to any studies that might have been election issue. I know some of my hon. Friends want done. Instead, there is just an assertion of what the to say a little more about the Welsh aspect of that, and Minister thinks is the right thing to do. I fully understand and support their argument. I shall conclude, as I know that many Members wish We oppose in principle both the elections and police to speak—and I see that you are getting a bit restless as and crime commissioners. We also believe that if the well, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Government have offered Government are going to press ahead, May 2012 is a no real argument as to why these measures should be ridiculous date given issues such as the speed with put back into the Bill, and they have no real answers to which things would be required to be put in place and the questions that were raised throughout the Committee’s the Olympics. The Government apparently now agree proceedings. They have offered no real argument as to with that, but have come up with the equally stupid idea why they think this delay is right, nor have they made of holding the elections in November. That would be any real assessment of the costs involved. They have costly, and there would also be further problems that offered no real argument as to why everyone else is have been pointed out not by the Opposition—my right wrong and they are right. hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary has not pointed Even at this late stage, the Minister pretends to us this out—but by the Electoral Commission, including that another little tidying-up exercise is needed. The the problems of daylight hours and of the electoral change in respect of the financial code of practice is canvass going on at the same time. The Electoral presented as merely a technical amendment, yet one of Commission is a body that is independent of this House, the key demands made in the Lords was that a code of and it has pointed out to the Minister that it is silly to practice was necessary in respect of the police and 799 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 800 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill crime commissioners. However, apart from a few sentences evidence of where this approach was not wanted, so of assertion from the Minister, we have no real idea may I refer him to the Liberty polling evidence produced even at this late stage about this financial code of a few months ago? I cannot remember the exact month practice, which will govern the way the police and crime when this was produced, but when people were asked commissioners operate. The Government have therefore who they would trust more to protect their family from produced not just another tweaking amendment, but crime, 65% said: have had to bring forward a major change. That is why “A Chief Constable reporting to a Police Authority, as now”. we tabled our amendment about the importance of this Some 15% said that they would prefer: change to chief constables. The Minister again just dismissed this, but perhaps he would agree with those “A Chief Constable reporting to an individual politician elected as a Police and Crime Commissioner”. who say, “Why shouldn’t the chief constable have some real say about what should be included in that financial There is some evidence for him. code of practice and about the impact of police grant cuts on officer numbers?” Mr Ruffley: I will not take issue with the skewed This is the wrong reform at the wrong time. If we nature of the wording—“politician” is often a dirty were to ask people whether they would set as a higher word. I have no knowledge of the survey, but what priority this Government spending more than £100 many of the respondents would probably not understand million on the ideological experiment of police and is that the majority of those serving on a 17-person crime commissioners or instead spending that money police authority are politicians—nine of them will be on police officers on the street, I think almost everyone indirectly elected council members. So a clear political in the country would say, “Let’s have police officers on element is already involved, which brings me on to my the street and not spend £100 million on elections that next point. nobody wants.” Steve McCabe: It is true that the members of police Mr Ruffley: I support the Government amendments, authorities are indirectly elected and are party people. and would like to favour the House with some recollections However, is not the difference that most of the from the two and a half years before the last general commissioners will owe their allegiance directly to the election when I did the job that the hon. Member for political party that maintains the machine that gets Gedling (Vernon Coaker) does. In the course of my them into power? They will have two people to whom shadow duties, I had occasion to speak to a great they are obligated—they will have an obligation not number of police authorities, crime reduction partnerships only to the electorate, but to the political machine—and and voters and I came to the following conclusion: so they will be party political commissioners. while police authority members believed for wholly honourable motives that the proposed step was retrograde Mr Ruffley: The hon. Gentleman makes the reasonable and potentially dangerous, I could find very little point that these people will fly under party colours. antagonism and opposition to the idea of elected police However, when getting elected as Members of Parliament and crime commissioners—and I challenge the Opposition for our constituencies we all fly under a party label and to produce evidence that that idea is unpopular with the rely on a smooth-running local party machine—that is British public. what we hope it is—to get us elected, and yet once If we rely on MORI—I do not see why we should not elected our duty is to serve all our constituents without rely on it—we know the following about British public fear or favour. I know that he is a diligent constituency opinion. Over the past five or six years, it has regularly man, as I hope I am. I take up the issues and concerns produced findings that demonstrate that police authorities, raised by each individual who comes to see me in my as vehicles for making the police accountable to the advice centre, regardless of race, creed, colour, faith, public they serve in any locality, are invisible. That is party political persuasion and even whether they are nice not a term of abuse. Some of my best friends are to me or rude to me. All of us take that view, because it members of police authorities, and they take umbrage is in the nature of the office we hold. I would be very when it is suggested that they do not do a good job. disappointed if a police commissioner, elected at the Many of them do a good job, but the fact remains that ballot box, as we hope will be the case a year this they are invisible to the public. coming November, did not take that same view. The main thrust behind this proposal is to have a single focal point of accountability, much in the way Steve McCabe: I have no doubt that the hon. Gentleman that the disparate things that used to happen under the is an extremely diligent MP who does not judge the Greater London council and all the other bodies associated people who come to his advice centre. The difference is with the running and governance of London were brought that when a member of the public approaches him they together in the shape of a directly elected Mayor. By know perfectly well that he is a Tory MP—I do not say and large, that has been a very popular programme of that in any disparaging sense, because they would identify government and a very good idea. Having a single focal me as a Labour MP—but when they approach a member point of accountability focuses people’s minds, as the of the police they expect that person to be a politically public know that if something is going wrong in policing, neutral member of the police. People would not expect there is one man or woman to whom they can go to find such a person to be the Tory or Labour police commissioner, out whether it can be fixed and when it will be fixed. and that is surely the distinction here.

6pm Mr Ruffley: There is a difference here, because we are Vernon Coaker: I acknowledge the experience that not talking about having police officers—actual law the hon. Gentleman brings to these debates from his enforcement officers—being party political, and neither former shadow policing role. He challenged me to produce is the hon. Gentleman. The commissioner will be a 801 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 802 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Mr Ruffley] about and he spoke eloquently in August about how the riots affected Manchester. His is a genuine point that is mode of accountability—on behalf of the public, who not easily resolvable. The idea is that a directly elected will have voted for him or her, they will be able to hold police commissioner will be able to set the precept, and the chief constable to account in a more focused and one of the strengths of a police authority—probably single-minded way. They will do the job that the police the only strength I can think of—is the fact that a authority attempts to do at the moment. We believe that proportion of the members of that police authority also it can be done better by one individual. sit on the precept-raising authority with their councillor I wish to deal with the issue of politicisation and hat on. That means there is a connection between the the democratic mandate. In the last Parliament, the council raising the precept and individual members of Labour party came to a pretty similar conclusion to that council, wearing a different hat, sitting indirectly my party about the accountability arrangements—the on the police authority. That was a useful nexus and it answerability arrangements—that currently pertain, as will not necessarily be the case here. did our colleagues on the Liberal Democrat Benches; In practice, I would expect any police and crime we came to the conclusion that those arrangements commissioner worth his or her salt to listen carefully to were not adequate and that there was a democratic the priorities of, and arguments put by, the leading deficit. We know that because of what was said by the group on the relevant precept-raising authority. I do not hon. Member for Gedling, and although that has already pretend that this proposal is perfect in that regard. been cited by my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock There will be quite a big disconnect between the person Chase (Mr Burley), I wish to reinforce the point. In wishing to set a police precept and the authority that 2008, the then Labour Government’s draft legislative has to go out and raise it, but that might be the rough programme announced that there would be a Bill edge of an otherwise quite unremarkable proposal. including proposals to provide That returns me to my theme and my next point. “a clear and powerful public voice in decision making through This is not a radical revolution that will throw all the directly elected representatives”. police cards up in the air and it is not a case of letting I understand that in the Committee stages of this Bill the chips fall where they may. I do not believe that that there were mild flirtations by Labour Members with is a sensible way to make public policy and neither do I various forms of direct election, and I think it is entirely think it is a sensible way of running the police service. proper for the Labour party to change its mind. I I think we are in agreement on that point. However, understand that the shadow Home Secretary now wants many of the powers and duties of the new police and to ditch the whole idea of elections. However, let us just crime commissioner will be virtually identical to those be non-partisan for a moment and accept that in the of police authorities at the moment. previous Parliament all three major political parties concluded that there was an argument for having a At the end of the last Parliament, I was rather a sad sharper, keener focus of responsibility. That involves individual and I counted the number of duties and letting the people or person holding the chief constable powers that police authorities had under a wide range to account have a mandate from the public, arising of legislation from the Local Government Act 1999, from a direct election, on the basis of one person, one under which they had value-for-money audit responsibilities, vote, in the police authority area over which a police to the police Acts and so on. There were about 120 to and crime commissioner would preside. There is something 130 such duties and responsibilities and it seemed to me incredibly important about a mandate being secured in that those authorities exercised quite a lot of power that way, as both Labour and the Liberal Democrats over the police, such as the power to call police officers were conceding in their policy pronouncements as recently to account. I struggle to see how the panoply of powers as the end of the previous Parliament. So let us not kid possessed by the average police authority is very different ourselves that the end of the world is nigh as a result of from the powers, duties and responsibilities that a police this proposal for police and crime commissioners. and crime commissioner will have. We know that the setting of a precept is an identical power and we also Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab): I know that police authorities, in conjunction with a chief accept the hon. Gentleman’s argument that there is a constable, set police priorities and objectives for the democratic deficit and that that needs to be addressed. year. Police authorities have strong views on the strategic I even accept his argument that the people making the objectives for a local police area and it seems to me that decisions at the moment are not visible. But does he not the police and crime commissioner will have similar recognise that there is another problem with electing strongly held views but will have the advantage, at least, someone who has responsibility for just one service: it of a public mandate through the ballot box when he or excludes them from the normal political decision making she sits down with the chief constable and they set out that has to be undertaken by anyone elected to government their plan to run the force in any given police area. or local government? Normal decision making would Equally, police authorities can appoint and, in certain mean that the person involved would have to measure circumstances, dismiss chief constables. That is a power priorities for policing against those for social services, that police and crime commissioners will have, too. For education or recreation. We are really going only half me, those are the big ticket items. way if we elect only a police commissioner who does not have the rest of the local public services to deal Vernon Coaker: Given the hon. Gentleman’s experience, with. I am interested in his view about the unfettered power of the police and crime commissioner to sack the chief Mr Ruffley: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. constable. Does he believe that should be subject to the He has huge experience from being leader of one of the same veto provisions as the police and crime panel has great cities of this country, he knows what he is talking for appointment and the precept? 803 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 804 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Mr Ruffley: My understanding is that that is not in I think the Government have probably gone further the Bill, but I envisage that the occasions on which a than many of their well-wishers would want them to go. police and crime commissioner will wish to dismiss a We have put a great deal behind the argument that there chief constable will be few and far between. As we should be openness and checks and balances; there know, under the old legislation, police authorities had should not be unfettered power in the hands of one the power to dismiss chief constables, but it was rarely elected commissioner. used. The right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside There is another check or balance that might be more and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) intervened publicly to nebulous but is worth pointing out for the benefit of say that a police authority should exercise its power to Members—the new role that we envisage Her Majesty’s dismiss an allegedly underperforming chief constable. inspectorate of constabulary taking, particularly since Police authorities used the power extremely rarely, and I the appointment of Sir Denis O’Connor. He has done have no reason to suppose that an elected police and all of us in the House a huge service in changing HMIC crime commissioner would be very different. reports into police forces, their shortcomings and where 6.15 pm they could deliver efficiencies from being turgid, boring documents that few people read into customer-facing I say to those who are not taking comfort from my documents, to use his phrase. He told me that the exposition of the fact that many of the duties of police reports are written in plain English for the public. I see authorities are merely being passported to police and a huge role for HMIC of going into forces and not just crime commissioners that the Government have bent talking to chief constables but interacting with police over backwards to put in place a panoply of safeguards. and crime commissioners and putting out data that We have already heard about the police and crime measure the performance of the commissioners. panel. I know that the hon. Member for Gedling thinks We need more sunlight to be shone into the corners that it has only two significant vetoes on the appointment of various police forces. It will not be just for the police of chief constables and on the precept, but its third duty and crime commissioners to do the awkward question- will be to create a vibrant debate and hold the police asking: it will also be for a wholly independent HMIC and crime commissioner him or herself to account. to tell the public in any given area how the police are The hon. Member for Gedling spoke of a police and doing and whether police and crime commissioners are crime commissioner deciding to take beat officers or making any difference—whether crime and the fear of neighbourhood officers from their role and to put them it have gone up or down. It will also say whether enough into a rape crisis unit or domestic violence unit. I would attention is being paid to level-2 protective services and fully expect the police and crime panel to pick up on other things that are not so sexy, if I can put it that way, that. I understand that there will be regular hearings at politically—things that will not necessarily be at the top which the police and crime commissioner will be available of someone’s manifesto when they are campaigning to to the police and crime panel to answer for such decisions. be a police and crime commissioner. There will be a full and frank exchange of views in Some of those Cinderella services have been mentioned public. I hope that police and crime panels will hold today. Examples include the shocking lack of attention hearings in the localities with witnesses, similar to those that is paid to fraud in various forces and the way in which that take place in the Select Committees of this place, to child protection, a specialist service that the police provide, put the police and crime commissioner through his or does not get as much coverage as hooliganism, graffiti her paces on some of the strategic decisions he or she is and antisocial behaviour. Those are all issues that the making. HMIC could address in its new-style reports. We should The police and crime panel will be an important not forget that crime maps are another resource available safeguard, on top of which there will be the protocol to the average member of public to help determine referred to by the right hon. Member for Leicester East whether standards of policing in a given area are improving (Keith Vaz), the distinguished and eminent chair of the and whether a police commissioner is contributing to Select Committee on Home Affairs. Police authorities that better fight against crime. never overstepped the mark in discussing policing priorities Let me address one last point. I have been asked by with chief constables, partly because of the well understood various members of my police authority in Suffolk what convention enshrined in common law whereby the difference this measure will make and what one person operational independence of a police officer is inviolable. could do, if they were elected as the police and crime I would expect the same restraint as we see exercised by commissioner for Suffolk, that the police authority elected politicians sitting indirectly on police authorities could not do. My answer is that in all police forces to operate in the case of police and crime commissioners. across the country, on average, there were two very In case we are not happy with that, however, there is worrying statistics earlier this year, according to HMIC. the protocol. The right hon. Member for Leicester East First, on average, only 12% of the police officers on was right to say that it is an important document that duty at any one time are, to use the jargon, visibly must be scrutinised, but I do not have any concerns that available to the public. Secondly, there are more officers it will not put on the record what a police and crime available for duty and visibly so on a Monday morning commissioner can and cannot do in relation to their at 9 o’clock than on a Friday at 9 pm. Those two strategic priorities. My word, if that police and crime statistics tell me that we are not running the police commissioner were to overstep the mark, I would be service as efficiently as we could. So, that one elected staggered if the chief constable and the police and person could go to a chief constable and ask, “Hang on crime panel did not investigate that and draw it to a minute—why have you got more uniformed officers public attention. What better set of safeguards than the on duty at 9 am on a Monday than at 9 pm on a panel and the protocol could there be for ensuring that Friday?” I believe that 9 pm on a Friday is when, to use the inviolable operational independence of our police is the parlance, things kick off; we know that that time is observed? bound to be busier. 805 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 806 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Simon Hart: Not in Bury St Edmunds! we look forward to seeing the latest draft—he sent me a draft in July—because it is important that the Select Mr Ruffley: Even in Bury St Edmunds, I dare say. Let Committee is involved in these processes. That is especially me repeat the other statistic, because it is quite shocking. true of the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood Fewer than one in eight uniformed officers are available (Mark Reckless), who is not in his place at the moment to respond to the public visibly. That includes not only but is very keen on these matters and wants to be response units going around the streets but also those involved in the discussions. We have to remember that handling such calls—the visible availability. There must although ACPO and the Home Office may agree the be a better way of asking any chief constable searching protocol, the third part of the triangle has not even questions about why that is happening on their patch or been elected yet. We do not have any police and crime police force area. commissioners, but if we are to have a protocol, they I conclude by saying that police authorities have had will have to be consulted on it in some way. many years to ask some of those difficult questions, but those two statistics, shocking as they are, represented 6.30 pm the situation in July 2011. The police authorities have Nick Herbert: I should point out that the protocol had their fair crack but they have not been able to was negotiated with the deputy mayor with responsibility squeeze the efficiencies and to ask the difficult questions for policing in London and with a representative of the that they should have. It is time for them to move over Association of Police Authorities—the chair of a police and for the police and crime commissioners to have a authority. That side of policing governance was therefore crack and see whether they can do better. It is in that represented. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that spirit of cheerful optimism that I support the amendments that is important. moved by my right hon. Friend the Minister. Keith Vaz: Indeed. I thank the Minister for reminding Keith Vaz: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member me. I know that he has mentioned it to me before. He is for Bury St Edmunds (Mr Ruffley), who is very right. It is important that those two individuals are knowledgeable about these matters. I shall speak only consulted, but neither of them is going to be a police briefly and I begin by apologising because I have to be and crime commissioner. Kit Malthouse is very experienced, away before the end of the debate because the chairman but he is already there. A bit of wiggle room may be of the committee on homeland security from the United needed when we get to the end of the process. Let us States Congress is coming to meet members of the wait and see. However, the Minister has made excellent Select Committee to discuss counter-terrorism. progress. I want to speak very briefly on these matters and I do I am concerned about the timing of the election. When not want to repeat the debate we have had before about Ministers appeared before the Select Committee they were the principle of police commissioners. However, I accept emphatic. We asked them to delay the election until what my hon. Friend the Member for Gedling (Vernon May 2013, after the Olympics, but they emphatically Coaker) said about this being an attempt by the replied that they thought everyone would be able to cope Government to reposition police and crime commissioners and the election should be held in May 2012. Delaying at the heart of the Bill. I know that all Members have it until November at an additional cost of £25 million, heard the arguments before and, as we have just heard, over and above the cost of police and crime commissioners, opinions are deeply held on both sides of the House. is in my view an example of the fact that money can be I shall concentrate on three issues. First, I was found when there is a political will to find it. disappointed that the announcement of the new When negotiations have to be conducted with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner was not made to Treasury, Ministers are very willing to enter into such the House. It has become a feature to announce resignations negotiations, but I understand from the Home Secretary to the House and I think that such important appointments that the matter has not yet been signed off by the ought to be announced here first rather than to the BBC Treasury. When she appeared before the Select Committee and Sky News. However, I am glad that the Home on Thursday, she said that she was in negotiations with Secretary heard the mood of the House and rushed in the Treasury. I should have thought that if the Prime here to make her announcement by intervening on my Minister says, “Find the money,” and the Home Secretary hon. Friend the Member for Gedling. I join the Home says, “Find the money,” even the Chancellor of the Secretary and my hon. Friend in congratulating Bernard Exchequer ought to accept that. I am not sure what the Hogan-Howe on his appointment; I know that he comes negotiations are about, but I assume the Minister will with enormous experience. He was the only candidate get his £25 million. for the position of chief executive of the new National Crime Agency, but he was plucked from that job and Steve McCabe: There is an issue about money, but made the acting deputy commissioner, and now hehas the does my right hon. Friend share my concern that in the top job. It is a very demanding job and I wish him well. past the Government have resisted setting a threshold Let me make two quick points about the Bill. As I for the elections? Holding them in November is, as we said in my intervention, I welcome the Minister back, heard, likely to depress the turnout. What level of and I think he has done excellent work on the protocol, turnout would give a new commissioner legitimacy—for which is an example of what can happen when a Select example, in the west midlands, with a population of Committee makes a recommendation. We called it a 5 million? memorandum of understanding—we started with the Magna Carta, but felt that was too grand and downgraded Keith Vaz: I shall leave it to my hon. Friend to decide it—and it has become a protocol. The Minister and what level of turnout is acceptable for the west midlands, others have been in discussions about the protocol and with its population of 5 million. My concern is the 807 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 808 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill electoral register. At that time, electoral registration There seems to be no question but that the relationship officers will be involved in their annual canvass. Nobody between communities, whether they are urban, rural or likes to campaign in November. I cannot remember the suburban, is at best remote and strained, and that when last time we had elections in November, although the these recommendations are in place, it will be considerably Minister will no doubt tell us when he winds up. It has enhanced. Much of the debate has been about the certainly not happened in my time in the House, and I politicisation of the role. I think we exaggerate that. have been here for more than 24 years. Having read over the weekend some of the contributions November is, of course, not the best weather to to the debate in another place, I recommend to hon. campaign, and I am not sure that everyone will open the Members the contribution of Lord Dear, who was a door to Members of Parliament, even Members as serving officer in the west midlands for 40 years. He was charming as the Minister and the shadow Minister. The happy to go on the record as saying that his initial register will be in the process of being compiled, it will reservations about the proposal had been gradually not be complete, and the basis of the register will be eroded as the debate unfolded. May 2013. The Minister needs to reassure us on this point, The idea that there is no politicisation now is absurd. but I hope very much that we will take into consideration There is a huge degree of politics in policing now. Chief some of the comments that have been made. I look constables make rather adept politicians, as it turns out. forward to hearing replies to some of them in the They agonise over press releases and over the relationship Minister’s winding-up speech. that they have with politicians in their area. In an intervention, I mentioned my force, Dyfed Powys. I feel rather sorry for the chief constable. Not only does he Simon Hart: It is always a pleasure to follow the right have a wide range of MPs to deal with from various hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz). May I say political parties, but he has a wide range of Assembly how glad I am that he had such a good shooting trip Members representing different parties, and several different over the weekend, which I fixed for him with the Indian local authorities. He has to balance the relationships cricket team? I hope their shooting was better than their that he has with all those individuals. cricket. The idea that a single elected police commissioner I support the Government’s attempts to reverse Lords can storm into that relationship, overpower a chief amendments 1 to 4. If I had not been convinced of the constable and not be held to account by the numerous arguments for doing so before tonight’s debate, I would other elected representatives in that area is exaggerated. have been convinced after I heard the hon. Member for It is an excuse to try and undermine a good idea, rather Gedling (Vernon Coaker). I suspect he might accuse me than an evidential basis upon which to do that. of misquoting him, but he said that one of the problems with the election of police commissioners is that they The role of commissioners will be the political one. will have a democratic mandate. Surely that is what the To coin a phrase, the commissioners will do the politics, proposal is all about. Arguing against it on the basis of enabling the chief constables to do the policing. I do not a fear that somebody might have a democratic mandate know whether many Opposition Members look at the does not sit comfortably with the whole direction of the website “Labour Uncut”—it is probably their equivalent coalition Government. of “Conservative Home”—but even “Labour Uncut” thinks this is one of the Prime Minister’s better ideas. I I shall concentrate on two themes—first, communities think it goes so far as to say that it is his only good idea, and the police, as they are affected by the election of a view that I do not share. It grudgingly reaches the police commissioners, and secondly, a wider discussion conclusion that this democratic improvement is something of the broader consequences. Hon. Members know that that the coalition Government got right. I represent a small part of the Dyfed Powys constabulary in west Wales. There is always a perception that the priorities Continuing the theme of politics interfering with police and work load of rural police forces are different from forces, Lord Dear’s speech in April this year referred those of other forces, and to a great extent they are, but to his time in HMIC and in particular to Derbyshire even a constabulary such as Dyfed Powys, which has a police authority 15 to 20 years ago. If ever there was an huge geographical area to cover, covers some intensely example of intense political interference with a police urban and suburban areas which have all the same force, that was it. It was staunchly party political and problems as any other part of Britain. had a hugely debilitating effect on that police force. The consequence was that Lord Dear, in his position in That is a particularly good example for the House HMIC, had to judge the force to be not fit for purpose to consider and to which we can apply the principle of as a direct result of the party political interference and elected commissioners to see whether the arguments the sub-standard police authority at the time. Therefore, stack up. I do not think that anyone on either side of the the idea that this risk applies only to future proposals argument is suggesting that the current situation with and has in no way poisoned the operation of constabularies respect to police authorities is perfect. Of course it is far in the past is also a complete myth. I concede the points from perfect. Nobody is arguing that the proposal is made by the hon. Member for Gedling and acknowledge perfect in every detail but it is argued, with some that there are concerns. The Minister has addressed validity, that it is considerably better than the situation some of those and, I am sure, will address more as the we have put up with for 50 years. Let us not forget that evening wears on. police authorities have largely been operating under the same structure for that length of time, yet the challenge Taking this from a police officer’s perspective, we can facing policing and the social dynamic of Britain has see that it is all the more important to address these changed radically over that period. It is entirely sensible concerns publicly now. The argument that this is a that we should seriously consider reforming the manner one-size-fits-all solution and that, because constabularies in which governance is applied. are not all the one size, it cannot possibly work in all 809 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 810 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Simon Hart] elected commissioner breaks down for any reason, there are sufficient checks and balances to ensure that that places needs further explanation. The officers’ concerns will not have a negative effect downstream. about the ownership—not in the physical sense—of staff issues, building-related issues and the more mundane elements of policing are, in debating terms, unfinished 6.45 pm business. I want to move on to some of the broad consequences of what we are discussing, because as the year has worn We also need to reassure people about political ideology. on the debates that we have held here have clearly In our various debates on police reform, political ideology affected the morale of officers, both senior and junior, has somehow been labelled a negative influence. If and volunteers and civilian staff in police forces. This political ideology includes the desire to make a police debate, and what the Minister has said and will continue force more accountable and cost-effective and to give to say, is a good opportunity to try to attach some better value for money, that is an ideology that I am certainty to the proposals. If police officers in Dyfed more than happy to sign up to. In going about our duty, Powys are anything to go by, it is the lack of certainty we should not attempt to scare potential voters in these on what the future holds that has contributed to the important elections into believing that someone who unease, which I think we should all attempt to avoid. adopts ideology should be avoided at all costs. There will of course be political ideology, whoever ends up in Members on both sides of the House are guilty of these positions and whatever party they represent. Even bandying about statistics as if they were the only thing if the status quo were to continue, political ideology that matters. Perhaps we could be a little more circumspect pervades the system. when talking about the numbers of officers on the front line. That can have a very demoralising effect on those The Minister will no doubt offer some reassurances officers who provide a fantastic service across Britain on the points raised about the crime panel, although I and yet somehow feel that they are becoming the subject am less worried about it than others seem to be. There of criticism when we mention a figure of 12% for the will be a large number of locally accountable people in front line. I think it behoves the Government—dare I my area of Dyfed Powys who will be very sensitive to say it—and Opposition Members to ensure that the the risk of one man going off piste and running a solo statistics we use are meaningful and contextualised, political operation at the expense of the voters who put rather than just used in throw-away comments, which him there, which I think would be extremely unlikely. can have a pretty debilitating effect on forces attempting to do difficult jobs in difficult circumstances. I am Vernon Coaker: The hon. Gentleman says that he constantly concerned about how it sounds when we thinks that would be extremely unlikely, but given the dismiss the role of back-office police staff. fact that it could happen, however unlikely, and the seriousness of a PCC’s unfettered ability to sack a chief Mark Tami: There are constant attacks on the back constable, does he not agree that the Bill should at least office, or the middle—a term introduced today—as if provide HMIC, for instance, with a reserve power to these people sit around doing nothing. I do not know refer such a sacking to the Home Secretary so that he or what they do, but that is the image that the Government she could judge whether anything untoward had happened? are trying to put across, as if we can sweep all those Is not some sort of reserve power necessary to protect people away and service will be unaffected. against such an eventuality, however unlikely? Simon Hart: I certainly do not think that that is the Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman makes a good Government’s position. It might be the position taken point, but I am not sure that that necessarily needs to be by some of the media, but I do not believe for one in the Bill. I think that there are sufficient checks and minute that the Government are attempting to underplay balances in the process anyway. His question pre-supposed the importance of some of those jobs. I just think that that the existing system is risk free, but clearly it is not. sometimes, in the interpretation, we attach less value to We have all seen examples of the relationship between the back office than we do to the front line. That seems police authorities, local communities and chief constables to be an interpretation of the tone in which Members breaking down. I argue that the proposals we have from both sides of the House sometimes speak. For heard debated on numerous occasions so far during this those doing vital back-office intelligence jobs, or even Parliament represent a better and safer version of what those providing relatively mundane services to support we currently have. I share neither his concerns, nor his front-line officers, that can have a very debilitating optimism that we can design a piece of legislation that effect. I think that the packaging, tone and messaging is 100% risk free. I do not think that that is possible of this kind of debate is an area where we owe the either in this area, or in many others. recipients rather more care than perhaps we have been To me the arguments that this is an improvement on able to provide so far. the existing arrangements are reasonably compelling. A police officer said to me only this morning that the However, I take the hon. Gentleman’s point and do not House is sometimes guilty of basing this argument think that it has necessarily been answered in a way that purely on efficiency. The expression, “We’re all in it is convincing for us, let alone for the people it will affect together” sometimes triggers a groan from Opposition directly, either those who will vote, or those who will do Members, but for many officers who are looking with a the enforcing. Both deserve a clear answer. On that pretty uncertain eye at what the future might hold for point, further clarification on what action will be taken them and their families, it would be more helpful if we in the event of a failure is significant, because I am not were to say that what is happening is part of rectifying a convinced—I am not sure about other hon. Members—that wider economic issue than we have perhaps been able if the relationship between the chief constable and the to stress so far. I also think that there has been a 811 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 812 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill fixation—I try to be balanced about these things, but Member of Parliament, which probably means that Opposition Members sometimes test the patience of all they will be twice as good, and there is no reason to of us, and on this particular point a little too far—that believe that they will not be extremely efficient and somehow there is always a correlation between police conscious of the impartial role that they have to play—that numbers and police efficiency. Whatever survey or piece will lead to a vast improvement on the existing situation, of evidence we tend to look at these days, there is an recreate public confidence and trust in the police force increasing amount of information, which should enable and deliver value for money. As our friends in the us to come to the view that the two things are not Treasury remind us, that is never far away from such always connected. They are some of the time, but the debates, but sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we idea that an efficient police force is a big police force is have an economic mountain to climb. a myth that this debate has to some extent helped to We do not need to go into all that now, but this is one dispel. small part of the climb, so I will happily support the In public opinion terms, however, we have to go quite Government in opposing Lords amendments 1 to 4, a lot further, because that idea leads unfortunately to a and I hope that other Members will do likewise. problem whereby the public have confidence in their police force only so long as it is a bigger police force Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab): I will which is expanding its numbers, whereas we should be be brief, because I know that other hon. Members wish reassuring voters and, in particular, vulnerable members to speak. of society that an efficient police force, which finds ways August reminded us why our police service matters. of carrying out its work better for less and involving In the face of the worst outbreak of rioting and arson fewer people does not mean that they will not be safe in that that this country has seen in 30 years, terrorising their beds at night. We exploit the fixation with numbers communities all over England, including in Birmingham, irresponsibly if that someone happens to be a pensioner our police were truly heroic. They were the thin blue wondering whether they are going to be burgled. line, acting decisively to restore order in the most difficult circumstances, and they were under outstanding leadership Mark Tami: Developing that point, can the hon. from their chief constable, Chris Sims, a man who acted Gentleman tell me when he has seen a Tory party leaflet decisively not because he needed to be told to do so by that states, “We want fewer police”, and puts across that politicians returning from holiday, or by putative police argument? I have never seen one. commissioners, but because he was going to put right a terrible wrong—the outrage of what we were seeing on Simon Hart: What emerges from that intervention is the streets of Birmingham. that the hon. Gentleman reads Tory leaflets and I do In that process, Chief Constable Sims made it clear to not, and he can keep reading as far as I am concerned, Birmingham Members of Parliament that he was utterly but the fact is that evidence now goes so far as to show determined to defend the British model of community even opposite trends. We do not have to go into that policing. What was so impressive about the way he put now, because I suspect that it is slightly outwith the it was this: he told us how he had become a police amendment, but I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman constable a year before the 1981 riots; how he had lived uses his time so wisely. through some dramatic moments throughout the ’80s, Having started from the position of being a little ’90s and into this century, with tensions on the street sceptical about how a police commissioner covering and, sometimes, widespread public disorder; how he, such a vast area of urban and rural Wales could be like the rest of our police service, had learned painful effective, I have slowly but enthusiastically come to the lessons from the mistakes of the past; and that what the conclusion that they will have an incentive to take into police service had done was to fashion a model of account public mood, public aspiration and public desire community policing that he and his fellow chief constables in a way that the current arrangements do not, and that were absolutely determined to defend—what he called it is a good thing, because it will therefore automatically the bedrock of our ability to police more generally and lead to police priorities being more sensitive to a to restore order in those most desperately difficult community’s requirements. If that happens, public circumstances. satisfaction with and confidence in the police will I trust That model is based on trust, confidence and consent, improve, and if that happens so will value for money in and it must never, ever be put at risk by the politicisation—of real terms and the perceived value for money of police the wrong kind—of our police service, be it loose talk forces, which are undoubtedly having to do some things from Ministers of water cannon and baton rounds, that neither we nor they wanted them to do. which would have been exactly the wrong thing use, or Although significant concerns have been well and this proposal to elect police commissioners. We undermine reasonably articulated in the House, they in no way that British model of community policing, with independent override the benefits to my constituents of proceeding chief constables able to make crucial operational decisions, with elected commissioners next year. We all know that at our peril and at the peril of the model itself. they will not work perfectly everywhere all the time—no The proposal for the election of police commissioners proposal that any of us has seen will do that—but one is also a grotesque waste of money: £112 million to be thing is certain: they will bring the community closer to spent on the election of 41-odd police commissioners, their police force than is the case at the moment, and some of whom might well indeed be odd. That money that is all the more to their credit. could put back on the streets 3,000 police officers. In I believe firmly that if we have good chief constables, the west midlands, the proposal would also see one man which by and large we do, and if we have good police or woman elected to cover an entire conurbation, the commissioners, which I have no doubt we will—let us nature of which is very different from one end to the face it, they are going to earn twice as much as a other, of 5 million people. 813 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 814 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Jack Dromey] asked, “Where is the demand for this from the general public?” Of course, that demand is inevitably somewhat The Government appear determined to plough on limited. Those such as ourselves, local councillors and regardless with this proposal, as they do with the cuts to the like, who take a day-to-day interest in these matters, our police service—1,200 police officers will go in the will argue the case one way or the other. The general west midlands. Ministers must recognise that if they public—most of them, anyway—come into contact with want to spend money they should do so on police the police only on relatively infrequent occasions, and it officers at the sharp end and on supporting them, not is then, if something goes wrong, that they want to on elected police commissioners, not least because the know who to turn to for assistance. impossible pressures being generated by Ministers are Police authorities are anonymous and deliver no real leading to perverse outcomes at the sharp end in the accountability. To give an example from my constituency midlands. They include the revelations in the past fortnight of Cleethorpes, which is part of the Humberside force that the police have had to use G4S to undertake major area, the two councils on my side of the Humber—North police functions, such as the investigations into the Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire—have three tragic killing of the three young men in Winson Green, representatives on the police authority, which has the shooting at the Barton Arms during the riots and 17 members. On alternate years, they have only two the murder in terrible circumstances of a 63-year-old in representatives; it is a bizarre situation. People do not Northfield. know who to turn to because the authority is completely Because the police are so short of key staff, they are and utterly anonymous. having to use G4S, employing many “A19” officers to In the same way that the profit motive energises the perform the same duties now as they did in the past, in private sector, the democratic process and the electoral circumstances where they would far rather be in a mandate that it generates energises and gives vitality to bobby’s uniform than that of G4S—and at £20 an hour, public bodies and authorities. Without it, they face a which is far more than police officers would have been real danger of becoming inward-looking and, very likely, paid. The part-privatisation of our police service is the of not delivering the service expected of them by the public. perverse consequence of the pressures that the Government I reject the argument that having elected commissioners are putting on chief constables at the sharp end. brings politics into policing and destroys Sir Robert Peel’s I would like any hon. Member in this House who vision, which has served us so well for many generations. went to the people of his or her constituency last May As the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith and said, “Vote for me—I will cut the police”, to put Vaz) said, there will need to be clear ground rules that their hand up. I suspect we will be waiting for that for a establish the working relationship between the commissioner very long time. As my hon. Friend the Member for and the chief constable. I was pleased that the Minister Gedling (Vernon Coaker) said in his excellent contribution, addressed that and recognised that we must get exactly we must work without hesitation further to improve the right protocols in place. how democratic accountability operates. At a time like Once these ground rules are in place, it is imperative this, elected police commissioners are the wrong priority that neither the commissioner nor the chief constable at the worst possible time. move away from them. Inevitably, the commissioner will have to articulate the concerns of those whom he or 7pm she represents and ensure that the policies put forward I say this to Government Members, including Ministers: at the time of their election are implemented. He or she at the heart of this debate has been a creeping attempt must not publicly undermine the authority of the police by Government to undermine confidence in our police chief; neither must the chief constable or his officers service. I know from talking to police officers at the undermine or publicly criticise the commissioner. sharp end that they strongly resent the constant assertion that they do not understand what the people in the I said that recent events—the riots and the like—have communities they serve need and want from their police strengthened the argument for commissioners. The exchange service. By working with those communities and elected of arguments between highly placed officers who made police authorities, the British model of community some very unacceptable and unwarranted remarks was policing sees fine men and women in uniform far more unseemly and undermined the authority of Ministers—or attuned to what their communities want. We put that at the police, depending on which side of the argument risk at our peril. Ministers should stop undermining the one was on. These attempts to undermine political police. authority go further than the outspoken comments during the recent riots: such political interventions by Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con): I endorse the the police can trickle down even to parish level. I am opening remarks of the hon. Member for Birmingham, sure that many Members will have experienced in their Erdington (Jack Dromey) in as much as I pay tribute to past days as councillors, and so on, the arguments that the police for the way they handled the recent riots and are constantly put forward to councils—parish councils the like. Where I differ from him is that I would argue and the like—that the problem is all due to budget cuts that recent circumstances have strengthened the argument made here or there. In effect, that undermines the in favour of elected police commissioners. elected authority that oversees the police, despite the Two of the most widely used words in Government fact that it is, as I said, somewhat anonymous. and public administration are “transparency” and There are alternatives. We could muddle along with “accountability”, and rightly so, yet the idea of proper the existing system of anonymous authorities manned meaningful oversight by a democratically accountable by sincere, hard-working individuals. However, that system individual is being rejected or it is argued should be does not meet the needs of a modern democracy, which, watered down in such a way that it would do little more if it means anything, must give our constituents a than maintain the status quo. The question has been choice between competing candidates and their views 815 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 816 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill on how we should be policed. There have been arguments have had the referendum on extra powers, we have in favour of elected police authority chairs. Many years elections for the National Assembly and there are local ago, I was an advocate of that, but the more one looks government elections next year. at it, the more difficult one can see that it would be. The Minister knows that the cost of the election for What if the unelected appointed individuals on the the whole of the United Kingdom, which was a matter police authority disagreed with the elected chairman? of debate some hours ago, will be at least £25 million Who would win out in that situation? There is a parallel more than was expected. He says that that money would with planning inspectors overruling planning committees; not necessarily have been spent on policing, but it could we all know the arguments that that can give rise to. have been. He dismisses the additional £25 million on Because of the artificial geography of police force areas top of the £50 million that was already to be spent. One such as mine—Humberside—we are not quite moving should compare that with what was said by the towards localism, but getting there. Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member This is not the end of British policing as we know it for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), who told the House but a major step towards introducing a system that can not so very long ago—this is rather pertinent because of deliver the transparency and accountability that I am today’s and tomorrow’s news—that reducing the number sure the whole House would approve of. of Members of this House of Commons by 50 will save £12 million. By changing the day of one election, that Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab): I am grateful to be able amount has been doubled over night—so much for to speak to the amendment in my name and the names those predictions about money being saved. of my hon. Friends. The amendment is specifically Who on earth wants elections in November? All of us about how the Bill affects Wales. In particular, it is who have been involved in elections for too long to about the relationship between the National Assembly remember know that elections in November have disastrous for Wales, the Welsh Government and the British turnouts. Add together the dark evenings and an electoral Government, and about the decision to hold the election register still under discussion, and I would place a bet for police commissioners in November. here in the House of Commons that the turnout for the When we last debated this, we talked about the so-called elections for police commissioners will be rock bottom. respect agenda, which respects the views, positions, functions Heaven only knows who might be elected on a low and responsibilities of the devolved Administrations, turnout. Assemblies and Parliaments in the United Kingdom. The Minister and others talk about operational The Minister touched on this in his speech when he accountability. Of course Prime Ministers, Secretaries rightly pointed out that the business of policing is not of State and Ministers do not tell the police what to do. devolved—that it is still a reserved matter. My right When I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and held responsibility for policing, I never told the Chief Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), who is sitting in front of Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland me, agreed, when he was Home Secretary, that there what to do, although we would discuss it. However, can should not be devolution of policing as we know it to it be imagined that those who want to be elected on a the Welsh Assembly. However, 10 years of devolution very local level as police commissioner will not campaign have passed, and we now have a shared responsibility on what are effectively operational issues? Add to that for matters that touch on police, crime and justice. that the nuttiest people are likely to be elected if the Although the National Assembly for Wales does not turnout is low. That is a dangerous development that have a specific responsibility for policing, the Minister we face. knows that half the money that goes to police forces Our constituents simply will not understand how in Wales comes from the National Assembly, because we can spend £25 million on changing the day of the local government in Wales is devolved. In addition, the election for police commissioners, £50 million on the Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government have elections themselves, and millions of pounds on functions and duties that are central to the operation of administering the position of police commissioners, policing. The relationship between the Home Office, when over the next two years in Wales at least 800 police the Welsh Assembly Government and the National officers will get the sack. Assembly is therefore crucial. I fear that by continuing to push the Bill through both Houses, the Government Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD): Perhaps will damage the relationship between Cardiff and the right hon. Gentleman will help me by spelling out London. the effect of his amendment. Would the Welsh Assembly The Minister and the House will recall that, uniquely, not need to hold elections for police commissioners the Welsh Assembly refused to give legislative consent or would it still have a duty to select a date for the to part 1 of the Bill. That is unprecedented. Similarly, elections? because of the special relationship that the Welsh Assembly has to policing, the Culture and Communities Committee 7.15 pm of the Assembly asked the Government to delay the implementation of police commissioners in Wales until Paul Murphy: The effect of the amendment would be it saw how the measure worked in England and could to ask the Government to talk to the Assembly and the understand how it would affect Wales. That request was Welsh Assembly Government, so that between them ignored. they could work out an appropriate date for an election. Worse, the Government are now insisting on a November The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South election in Wales without consulting the Welsh Assembly Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) said that he had been Government or the National Assembly. We have more converted to the Bill over the past couple of weeks. He elections in Wales, as we have had over the past year. We is almost on his own in Wales, because the majority of 817 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 818 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Paul Murphy] The problem, therefore, is extremely simple: police authorities are not strong enough to exercise that alternative Welsh Members of Parliament, the majority of Assembly governance, and they are not sufficiently connected to Members, the majority of the non-Labour members of the public whom they are supposed to serve. Consider the Welsh Local Government Association, every single this: only four of 22 inspected police authorities have police authority in Wales and virtually every police been assessed as performing well in their most critical officer I have talked to thinks that this is a bad idea. functions by HMIC and the Audit Commission; only In a devolved system in which the Government share 8% of wards in England and Wales are represented on a responsibility for policing, the Government should police authority; and according to a Cabinet Office immediately hold discussions with the Welsh Assembly survey conducted just a couple of years ago, only 7% of Government and the National Assembly for Wales to the public understand that they can approach their talk about the principle of the election and the efficacy police authority if they are dissatisfied with policing in of the policy. To put it through in the way they are their area. doing is the complete reverse of a respect agenda. Virtually no one in that survey knew who their police Simply saying, “It is our responsibility in the British authority chairman was. In fact, I would be interested Parliament and only the British Government can do to know how many hon. Members can intervene and this,”completely goes against the spirit of proper negotiation tell me who their police authority chairman is. and discussion that was a part of our United Kingdom. That goes to the heart of what this Government are Several hon. Members rose— often about: they say one thing and do another. On this Bill, I join all my right hon. and hon. Friends in asking the Government to think again. In particular, Mr Burley: I will take any interventions. on behalf of those of us from Wales who are concerned about this matter—many of my right hon. and hon. Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): Russell Roberts. Friends have signed the amendment—I ask the Government to have an immediate discussion so that at least the Graham Stringer: Councillor Murphy. people of Wales are heard and this preposterous and daft measure can be deferred. Mr Burley: Only two Members of the House could Mr Burley: You will be pleased to note, Madam intervene and tell me who chairs their police authority, Deputy Speaker, that this time I remembered to stand which tells us everything we need to know about their up to be called—16 months in and we are still learning visibility. That is from MPs, not the public—we are how this place works. supposed to know. I rise to support the Government motions. I start by These invisible police authorities are supposed to adding my congratulations to those of the Home Secretary serve the public. That is the same public who have no and the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee to idea who they are, no idea what they do, no idea how to Mr Bernard Hogan-Howe on being named the new contact them, and certainly no idea that they cost them Metropolitan Police Commissioner. It is the toughest £50 million a year. job in British policing. Following the riots, I am sure that everyone in this House would wish him well in his Paul Murphy: The Government prayed in aid an new job. opinion poll that said that 7% of the people of England I will briefly restate the case for the reform of police did not know anything about their police authorities or authorities and explain why it is important, before what they did. The hon. Gentleman might not be aware, addressing some of the challenges that have been posed however, that a recent survey in Wales showed that by Opposition Members. The first thing to remember is 82% of people did know about their police authority the simple fact that the police are a monopoly service. and believed that it did a good job. The public cannot choose their force. Therefore, officers must be accountable for their actions and their performance. Mr Burley: I understand that the survey to which the As this Government release the grip of Whitehall by right hon. Gentleman refers was commissioned by the scrapping centrally imposed targets and performance police authority. It might be that it posed the question measures such as the policing pledge, the stop-and-account to get the answer it wished to get. form and some of the uses of stop and search, we need to put in place other means to ensure that police forces A more recent survey has found that a typical police deliver. What we are doing with police and crime authority receives just two letters per week from the commissioners is swapping bureaucratic control of the public. Let us compare that with what the de facto police for democratic accountability. In my view, we are police and crime commissioner for London, Kit Malthouse, putting in place far greater, far harsher and more publicly told the Home Affairs Committee in December last visible accountability—the accountability of the ballot year. He said that when he was first given the title of box. Anybody who does not believe me should ask any deputy mayor with responsibility for policing, sitting MP. “the postbag at City Hall on community safety went from 20 or The second thing we must remember is that most 30 letters a week up to 200 or 300…We had a problem coping with it. That indicated to me there was a thirst for some sense of crime is local. It is therefore far better that forces answer responsibility and accountability in the political firmament for to local communities than to box-ticking officials in the police”. Whitehall. If local accountability is to substitute for the centralised performance regime of the past, it needs to He said that having one person be strong and democratic local accountability. “allows there to be a kind of funnel for public concern”. 819 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 820 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill However, the absence of a direct line of public influence A key point is that the role of commissioners will also is problematic not only for the public, but for police be greater than that of the police authorities that they forces. Back in the 19th century, the founder of modern replace. That is the significance of the words “and policing, Sir Robert Peel, said: crime” in their title. Police and crime commissioners “The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent will have a broad remit to ensure community safety upon the public approval of police actions.” within their budgets, and to prevent crime and tackle After a decade in which public approval of the police drugs. They will work with local authorities, community fell, it has now started to rise again. That is a welcome safety partnerships and local criminal justice boards, trend, but still only 56% of the public say that the police helping to bring a strategic coherence to the actions of do a good or excellent job, and a survey by Consumer those organisations at force level. In future, their role Research last year found that nearly a third of those who could be extended to other elements of the local criminal come into contact with the police—I do not mean criminals justice system, ensuring that the police and those who —were dissatisfied. Of the minority who complained, manage offenders operate together, working to break nearly two thirds were unhappy with the way the police the cycle of crime. dealt with their complaint. The police were among the In short, police and crime commissioners will be big worst performers of the public services. beasts: highly visible, highly accountable and highly effective. The contrast between them and today’s police authorities could hardly be greater. Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Does my hon. Friend agree that people feel dissatisfied with the police— unfairly, in many cases—because of the lack of visibility Vernon Coaker: Is the hon. Gentleman arguing for of police on the streets compared with previous years, criminal justice commissioners? In other words, does he and the ludicrous deployment of police in back room want locally elected people in an analogous role to that jobs, rather than out in customer-facing roles? of police and crime commissioners in respect of chief constables? In my view, he does want that, but is that what he is arguing for? The House would like to be clear Mr Burley: My hon. Friend makes a good point. For on whether the next stage is to have criminal justice me, the natural corollary of that frustration at not commissioners elected by the local population. seeing police on the streets or feeling that there are too many in back and middle offices, is that the public feel that they have no one to complain to. People do not Mr Burley: I am not arguing for that, but speculating know how to complain. They do not know who their how the role of commissioners could develop over time. police authority is—we have seen that from the surveys— The key point that I would make to the hon. Gentleman and there is no single, high-profile, accountable individual is this: there will be pressure on elected police and crime to whom they can complain. That compounds the commissioners to do things in a different way. There frustration that my hon. Friend talks about. They do will be pressure on them to be far more collaborative not know to whom to go to say, “We want more police with other forces and other police and crime commissioners, on the streets and we are going to hold you to account for example, as was mentioned earlier in the debate, to at the ballot box unless you deliver it.” drive efficiencies through procurement. There is no real reason at the moment for police forces to collaborate to purchase cars or uniforms together. They have not had Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con): Perhaps I can help that driver, yet they have had increasing budgets for my hon. Friend with his argument. A person who is 10 years. The guys who are elected next year will want minded to complain about Derbyshire police might try to work with neighbouring forces. If I were elected as to find the police authority link on the front page of the police and crime commissioner for Staffordshire next Derbyshire police website, but they will find it right year, the first call I would make would be to the police down in the bottom left—it has about the same significance and crime commissioner in west midlands, to ask, “Can as the link to the male voice choir. we do things together? Could we collaborate to procure things together?” I would have a reason to want to Mr Burley: My hon. Friend makes my point for me. I reduce my budget so that I can spend it on delivering would be fascinated to know whether any of the 43 police the pledges that I put in my manifesto, such as a pledge and crime commissioners elected next year will have to get more officers on the beat. such low visibility on their websites for people who The hon. Gentleman and I discussed Tony Blair’s want to contact them or complain about the police. knife-crime summit. I was thinking through his logic All those points show why the introduction of police after he answered my question, but I still do not understand and crime commissioners is so important. They are a it, so perhaps he could help. It was okay, at a national key element of the Government’s programme of level, for an elected politician—the former Prime decentralisation, where power is returned to people and Minister—to hold a summit at No. 10 Downing street, communities. inviting all the chief constables from around the country, I want the new commissioners to be big local figures who no doubt could have been doing other things with with a powerful local mandate to drive the fight against their time, to ask them what they were doing about crime and antisocial behaviour. After all, they will knife crime, which he had identified as an issue in this decide policing strategy; set the force budget and the country. No doubt he was coming under a lot of pressure local council tax precept; and appoint, and if necessary from the public, who were contacting him and their dismiss, the chief constable—that point has been made MPs demanding that something be done, and quite throughout the debate. They will do those things on rightly he called together the police forces to bang behalf of the public who elected them, and who will heads together and come up with a strategy to deal with then hold them to account at the ballot box. knife crime. 821 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 822 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill 7.30 pm best model. I have read out the Lib Dem manifesto, but The hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) seemed I ask Members to consider the following quote: to suggest that that was okay because it was a “national “Only direct election, based on geographic constituencies, will priority”—I wrote down his words—but that it was not deliver the strong connection to the public which is critical”. okay locally. I cannot follow that logic at all. Let us It continues: imagine that we have a problem locally—it might be “under the current system, 93 per cent of the country has no knife crime or kids racing cars down a disused road. direct, elected representation. This is why we have proposed the Why is it okay to have a national priority and do Green Paper model; so that people know who to go to and are something about it nationally, but not to have local able to influence their policing through the ballot box.” priorities and to do something about it locally? I cannot Those are not my words, but the words of the hon. understand the logic at all. Member for Gedling, the shadow policing Minister, in a speech in 2008. Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD): I am beginning to feel sorry for the hon. Gentleman, who seems to live Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab): The hon. in a really poorly policed area. My area has neighbourhood Gentleman is talking about Staffordshire. People in my forums that the police attend. There are ward action part of Staffordshire do not want £1 million spent on teams involving local councillors. There are area committees these elections. They want local policing and they feel on which the police are represented. There is an overview that the directly elected councillors who sit on the police and scrutiny committee. In the police’s view, they are authority do a good job. almost scrutinised too heavily. The link should be through democratically elected local councillors. There is no Mr Burley: The hon. Lady speaks for her part of shortage of scrutiny of the police in my area. I feel sorry Staffordshire and I speak for mine. I can tell her that for him. people in my constituency do not feel that they have ample opportunity to influence the policing priorities in Mr Burley: I am fortunate to live in a very well their area, they do not know what the police authority policed area. Staffordshire has an excellent chief constable. is, they do not know how to contact it and they do not He is one of the few chief constables to come out and know how to get involved in all these bureaucratic say that, despite his budget reductions, he will be making panels and committees that the hon. Member for Bradford absolutely no cuts to the front line until 2013. We have East rattled off. forward looking police forces. The Opposition’s latest form of direct accountability is not a million miles from what we are proposing—directly Vernon Coaker: Only to 2013? elected chairs of authorities. That is the Labour party’s proposal. It was an idea proposed in an amendment by Mr Burley: He has confirmed to 2013. I do not know the shadow Minister in Committee. I was on the Committee how long the hon. Gentleman wants him to confirm. and remember him pushing it to a vote. In my view, that On the point made by the hon. Member for Bradford would be the worst of all worlds, because we would have East (Mr Ward), I would simply quote his party’s manifesto an individual with a mandate but unable to deliver it back at him. Page 72 of the Lib Dem manifesto—I do because he could be outvoted routinely by a committee not know whether he helped to write it—stated: of appointees. This model would cost more and not “We will give local people a real say over their police force produce the single focus of a police and crime commissioner. through the direct election of police authorities”. Many Labour Members have made the point today Clearly, there is a problem. All the bodies that he named about the cost of delaying the elections. I think that we are bureaucracies. He just reeled off half a dozen should start by reflecting on some wise words: bureaucratic bodies that no one has heard of, that no “We’ve got to go further in demonstrating value for money and one knows how to contact and that do not deliver what delivering efficiency. We are investing a lot of money in public local people want. His own party’s manifesto proposes services, it’s got to deliver results”. a highly visible individual who is accountable at the That was the now shadow Home Secretary in an interview ballot box, whom people know how to contact and who with The Daily Telegraph in January 2008, when she was is not next to the male choir on the website. How can Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I could not agree with that not be an improvement? her more. In fact, I also agree fully with the next quote from the interview: Mr Ward: Hansard will prove me correct. I think “Margaret Thatcher did talk about, you know, the housewife that the hon. Gentleman said “authorities”, not adding up the sums. Every family recognises the need to make “commissioners”. sure that you can manage each month.” Quite right too! I am glad that she and I agree with Mr Burley: I meant “commissioners”. Lady Thatcher. In the time left, I would like to deal with a few of the As so often with Labour, however, when it comes to objections raised today. People listening to this debate public spending, it is a case of, “Do as I say, not as I in the Gallery could be forgiven for thinking that only do.” Its NHS national IT programme had a budget of the Conservatives want to reform police authorities. £2.3 billion, but has now cost £12.6 billion—an overspend This is simply not true. As I said in an earlier intervention, of 450%. Its pensions transformation programme at the the case for reform of police governance has been made Department for Work and Pensions had a budget of across the political spectrum. There is party consensus £429 million, but the current cost is £598 million—an in favour of the democratic reform of police authorities, overspend of 39%. Its A46 improvement programme although I accept that there are differences about the had a budget of £157 million, but the current cost is 823 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 824 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill £220 million—a 40% overspend. But worst of all was government elections used to be held in the autumn. the cost of the millennium dome. It cost £789 million to They were moved from the autumn because turnout build and £28 million a year to maintain. was low, and also because they were a long way from the rate-setting process—it was thought that the finances Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. I think and the elections should be put together so that the that we might be straying a little wide of the mark. electorate could have a direct impact. They are solid arguments: it would be a mistake to have low-turnout Mr Burley: I thank you for your direction, Mr Deputy elections in November. Speaker. I shall focus my remarks. In April 2002, the However, that is not the most significant reason why I National Audit Office showed that £28.4 million was will not vote with the Government. The second reason spent on the dome’s maintenance in the year after it was is that there is clearly a democratic deficit with the closed. For just one year of maintaining the dome, we police. There are many good councillors on police could elect someone who represents our views; for one authorities in the metropolitan authorities, but they are year of maintaining the dome, we could let local people not directly elected to that position, which means that it have a say over how their area is policed; and for one is more difficult for elected politicians to have real year of the dome, we could replace bureaucratic political accountability to the electorate. However well accountability to Whitehall with local accountability to the chair of the police authority in Greater Manchester the people. We will therefore take no lectures from does—and Councillor Paul Murphy does an extremely Labour on how to spend £28 million. It is far better to good job in that position—he is not directly elected to spend it on reconnecting the public to the police than that position. However, although I recognise that democratic on Tony Blair’s Teflon-coated, flattened mushroom. deficit—I believe in direct elections for local politicians to control the police—it is not just the relationship with The Opposition object to delaying the election to the electorate that is deficient; it is the relationship with November 2012. I am glad that it has been delayed to other local public services. 15 November, not 5 November. Having a one-off election at the beginning of the cycle of elections for PCCs is a It is good for the police to have to argue for their good idea because it will remove the charge of making budget against other services. It is good for police forces them political. There will be no other elections on that to have to sit down with people whose jobs are about day, so the first time that the PCCs are elected, no one child protection, care of the elderly, transport and so on will be able to claim that they were motivated to vote in and argue for their priorities, so that they can understand a council vote or in a party political way. I support the more what is going on. Unfortunately, we are 30-or-so delay on the grounds that it will make the first elections years into a series of ad hoc changes to local democracy— of these important PCCs non-political in the public’s many have been made for good reasons; some have been eyes. Afterwards, they will revert to the same date as the made for poor reasons—which have left us in a mess. council elections, thereby saving £50 million over four We need to take a more fundamental look at what is years. going on in local democracy than just saying, “We’ve got a problem with policing; we can make it more In conclusion, policing is a monopoly service. The effective by introducing democracy.” people cannot choose their force. This public service Those are the reasons why I will not be supporting has to answer to someone, and we think that local the Government. On the other hand, I should like to people should have the power to do something about remind some of my hon. Friends that democracy is the problems that blight their towns and city centres. expensive. If we asked most members of the public We are determined to rebuild the link between the whether they would prefer money to be spent on two people and the police forces that serve them, which is nurses or one Member of Parliament, virtually all of why these reforms are right for the people, right for the them would say that they wanted two nurses. However, police and right for the times. if we asked them, “Do you want to be denied the right to determine locally who provides services?”—whether Graham Stringer: I was not going to speak in this it be transport, policing or whatever—they will say that debate, but so many interesting points have been made they want that right, and that right comes with a cost. that I decided I would. The most interesting and perverse Therefore, when people on this side of the Chamber say point was made by the hon. Member for Cannock that now is not the time to spend money on improving Chase (Mr Burley) when he reached his conclusion. He and increasing democracy, I do not agree with them. said—I do not have the exact quotation; I am sure that Democracy is important and we have a deficiency; it is it will be in Hansard—that he envisaged non-political just that the Government’s proposals are not good elections taking place. I think that all elections—certainly enough at the moment. all those to major positions representing millions of The second thing that has been said is that rascals or people, as they would in the case of the west midlands, the wrong people might be elected. Unfortunately, the Greater Manchester and our other great urban electorate sometimes get it wrong—some people in the conurbations—are necessarily bound to be political. I Chamber will know and respect that fact—but that is would therefore suggest that he think through a little the nature of democracy, and hopefully they will put it more what he is saying and doing, because what he right next time. However important policing is, it is not described is completely impossible. right to say that we can have a bureaucrat, however high I am going to vote with my party against the Government up they might be in the police service, telling elected on these Lords amendments for two reasons, even though police commissioners or polices authorities that they Government Members have made significant arguments have got it wrong. The people who tell elected representatives that I support. The first reason is that having elections that they have got it wrong are the electorate at the next in November is difficult to say the least. Some older election, not bureaucrats, and I do not think that we can Members of this House may remember that local have those decisions made failsafe. 825 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 826 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill 7.45 pm bigot to the effective police officer to the peacemaker—and The third point on which I would take issue with I do not think that that is a proper process for one of some Members on my side is this. I support the police—as the most important services that is provided locally. I suspect every hon. Member in this House does—but I am sorry, in a way, that I cannot vote with the that can sometimes be taken to mean that we cannot be Government, because there is a powerful argument for critical or say that they could do the job better. They improving the accountability of police commissioners clearly could, and the riots are an interesting example to and the police service, and I hope that some of the look at policing in this country. When the riots took people who have spoken on my side of the House will place in Greater Manchester, the police could, in my think a bit harder about some of those democratic view, have done a more effective job. That is not to arguments. Unfortunately, however, the Bill is seriously criticise individual police officers who were on the streets, flawed, and I wish that the Government would go back showing extreme bravery; it is to take issue with, potentially, and think again. the tactics and strategy used on that night. It is to take issue with the Greater Manchester police’s procurement Nick Herbert: In the few minutes remaining, I want policies, which put officers from tactical aid units on the to pick up on a few of the points that have been made. streets of Greater Manchester with 17 or 18-year-old First, however, I should like to add my own congratulations equipment that was too heavy. It is to take issue with the to Bernard Hogan-Howe on his appointment as tactics and strategy that sent well trained police officers Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. He had a from Greater Manchester to sit in coaches in London. fine record of fighting crime when he was with Merseyside This is essentially about saying that we should have police and, since then, as one of the inspectors of been able to do better than we did in protecting the constabulary. He has a challenging task ahead of him, property and people of Greater Manchester on the and I am sure that the whole House will wish to nights of the riots. congratulate him on his appointment. That is not about not supporting the police; it is about saying that however brave they are, things can be Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab): Will the Minister improved, as in every other public service. That is part give way? of the democratic process, which is about being able to be open and critical and about trying to improve those Nick Herbert: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive services. However good Councillor Murphy and the me— other members of the police authority are, having somebody directly elected for the whole of Greater Manchester Stephen Pound: It is a point of courtesy. would have meant a more creative and better public debate about what was happening that evening. Indeed, Nick Herbert: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman. it is almost impossible to imagine that not being the case. Stephen Pound: I am grateful. The Minister is entirely Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I commend the hon. right to congratulate Bernard Hogan-Howe, but I am Gentleman for making a thoughtful and measured speech, sure that he will also want to offer a word of commiseration but surely his points are equivalent to those made by my to the other candidates, excellent as they were in their constituents in north Wales. They feel the same support way—particularly, if I may say so, Sir Hugh Orde. for the police, but they occasionally feel frustrated. However, because we have six local authorities in north Nick Herbert: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman Wales, they do not know who to approach to get their for that intervention. I would like to extend that note of message to the local police force. The Government’s commiseration to all three unsuccessful candidates, all measure will allow them to identify an individual who of whom have given great service to policing in their they can go to and make their point, so that they can current jobs. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for ask for change while supporting the police. reminding me of that. The hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), the Graham Stringer: I do not disagree with that. The shadow policing Minister, raised a couple of issues that hon. Gentleman makes a clear and explicit point; the I would like to address. The first related to the transition point that I was trying to make is that there should not costs resulting from this reform, and if I heard him be just one person, who has only one service to think correctly, he suggested that they would amount to some about. That person should also have to engage with the £37 million. He is not nodding, so perhaps he cannot rest of our public services. recall mentioning that figure. I would like to ask him Greater Manchester has had an interesting history where he got the figure from, because it is not one that with its last four chief constables. They have been very the Government remotely recognise, and I challenged different people. James Anderton ran a prejudiced police him on it at the time. If he reads the impact assessment force. He was openly prejudiced against gay people, that we published in conjunction with the Bill, he will while the force that he ran was secretly—although most see that we estimated the transition costs at just £5 million. people knew—prejudiced in a racist kind of way. David It does not help the debate if inflated costs are put Wilmot, who followed, was a very different chief constable about. It has been bedevilled by exaggerated costs for who tried to improve relationships with the country. the reform and the elections, and I have put on record Mike Todd, who followed him, was a different kind of the fact that I disagreed with some of the figures presented chief constable altogether, and now we have the current by the Association of Police Authorities. Indeed, I have one. The interesting point is that the electorate of Greater remonstrated with the association about them. I do not Manchester have been left out of any of the debates know whether those are the figures that the hon. Gentleman about who their chief constable should be—from the is using, but they are not right. 827 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 828 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Vernon Coaker: I stand by the figure of £37 million, have done so earlier, because that was the first opportunity which, from memory, some external consultants came that I have had to do so in the House. I certainly join up with. Of course the Minister will disagree with many him in paying tribute to everything that those officers of the estimates that have been made of the costs, did to protect the public and property, and to everything because they show that the reforms will cost quite a lot. that they went through. I remind the House that a considerable number of officers were injured during Nick Herbert: The hon. Gentleman really must do that period. In my view, it is right that the justice system better than that; he has been a policing Minister, as I operated swiftly in order to deal with the perpetrators. now am. As far as I am aware, those consultants were In the three minutes remaining to me, I should like to commissioned by the Association of Police Authorities. comment on the speech made by the right hon. Member They made a number of assumptions, including about for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) on the relationship between the additional use of Home Office official time, and Cardiff and London and the significance of the reforms those assumptions are wrong. The figures that I gave in Wales. I have been engaged in discussions with the the hon. Gentleman are the official figures produced by Welsh Assembly Government, and specifically with Carl the Government, and it is our formal view—I am basing Thomas— this on the advice that I am given by officials—that the estimate of the transition costs made by the Association Mark Tami: Carl Sargeant. of Police Authorities is wrong; I want to say that again. The hon. Gentleman raised the issue of November Nick Herbert: I am sorry; I meant Carl Sargeant. I elections. I am advised that, in the dim and distant past, am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. elections have been held in this country in November In those discussions, I tried hard to reach an agreement and, in the more recent though still fairly distant past, with Carl Sargeant that would respect the devolution in October. It is of course the case that the presidential settlement in Wales. I recognise that he did not support elections in the United States are routinely held in the reform, but I pointed out that policing was a reserved November. The next such elections will be held in matter. We wished to go ahead with it, but we also November next year. Indeed, it was thought possible at wished to ensure that the arrangements, particularly one time that the former leader of the Labour party and those relating to local government—a devolved matter, former Prime Minister was going to call an election in as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out—reflected the 2007. Presumably, that would have been held in late wishes of the Welsh Assembly Government. We came October or early November, but the right hon. Gentleman up with the legislative consent motion. chickened out, as we all remember. So November elections I must put it on record, however, that, quite are not such an unusual proposition. extraordinarily, Welsh Assembly Ministers then proceeded I would like to pick up on something that the hon. not to support their own motion, in spite of the fact Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) said when that I had negotiated it with them in good faith. I said at he challenged my use of the term “middle office”. He the time that I thought that was a pity because, in doing said that I had just invented it, but in so doing, he so, they denied the special arrangements for Wales that betrayed his lack of knowledge on these issues, and the this Government had tried hard to promote. It is important fact that he has not read Her Majesty’s inspectorate of to understand that we tried very hard and will continue constabulary’s report, in which the inspectorate helpfully to try to respect the devolution settlement in Wales on offers a definition of the front line. Indeed, “middle this matter and, through constructive dialogue, to make office” is a standard term in policing; it is one that the the reform work in Wales. inspectorate uses. It denotes functions that are not Finally, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for directly public-facing but nevertheless involve fighting Cannock Chase (Mr Burley), who quoted Sir Robert crime. Peel as saying: I want to return to an important point that I made “The police are the public and the public are the police.” during questions earlier. A very considerable amount of The reforms are about devolving power, giving it to the police resource, and a third of all human resources, are people, protecting the operational independence of the not on the front line. That is what the inspectorate’s police while ensuring that the public have a right and report said, and it is clear that the hon. Gentleman has proper say in how policing is delivered in their communities. not read it; otherwise, he would not have been so astonished at the term “middle office”. Hon. Members Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords should read that report. If they did so, they would see amendment 1. the inspectorate’s assessment of the number of officers The House divided: Ayes 296, Noes 220. in the back and middle office—the figure is well over 20,000—and of the way in which chief constables should Division No. 345] [7.59 pm consider whether those officers are in appropriate roles. As the Opposition are making a great deal of the fact AYES that 16,000 police officers must be lost, it behoves them Adams, Nigel Baldry, Tony to look more carefully at where police officers are Afriyie, Adam Baldwin, Harriett actually employed. There is no need for the front line to Aldous, Peter Barclay, Stephen be damaged, provided that the right decisions are taken Alexander, rh Danny Barker, Gregory and that policing is made more efficient and transformed Amess, Mr David Baron, Mr John in the right way. Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin The hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto Dromey) paid tribute to the role of our police officers in Baker, Norman Beith, rh Sir Alan dealing with the riots, and it was remiss of me not to Baker, Steve Bellingham, Mr Henry 829 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 830 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Benyon, Richard Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Reid, Mr Alan Berry, Jake Fox,rhDrLiam Leech, Mr John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Bingham, Andrew Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Binley, Mr Brian Freer, Mike Leigh, Mr Edward Robertson, Mr Laurence Birtwistle, Gordon Fullbrook, Lorraine Leslie, Charlotte Rogerson, Dan Blackman, Bob Fuller, Richard Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rudd, Amber Blackwood, Nicola Garnier, Mr Edward Lewis, Brandon Ruffley, Mr David Blunt, Mr Crispin Garnier, Mark Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Russell, Bob Gauke, Mr David Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rutley, David Boles, Nick George, Andrew Lloyd, Stephen Sandys, Laura Bone, Mr Peter Gibb, Mr Nick Lopresti, Jack Scott, Mr Lee Bottomley, Sir Peter Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lord, Jonathan Selous, Andrew Bradley, Karen Glen, John Loughton, Tim Shapps, rh Grant Brady, Mr Graham Goldsmith, Zac Luff, Peter Sharma, Alok Brake, rh Tom Goodwill, Mr Robert Lumley, Karen Shelbrooke, Alec Bray, Angie Grant, Mrs Helen Macleod, Mary Shepherd, Mr Richard Brazier, Mr Julian Gray, Mr James Main, Mrs Anne Skidmore, Chris Brine, Mr Steve Grayling, rh Chris Maude, rh Mr Francis Smith, Miss Chloe Brokenshire, James Green, Damian May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Henry Brooke, Annette Greening, Justine Maynard, Paul Smith, Sir Robert Bruce, Fiona Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Jason Soames, rh Nicholas Bruce, rh Malcolm Griffiths, Andrew McCartney, Karl Spencer, Mr Mark Buckland, Mr Robert Gummer, Ben McIntosh, Miss Anne Stevenson, John Burley, Mr Aidan Gyimah, Mr Sam McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stewart, Bob Burns, Conor Halfon, Robert McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Iain Burns, rh Mr Simon Hammond, Stephen McVey, Esther Stewart, Rory Burrowes, Mr David Hancock, Matthew Mensch, Louise Stride, Mel Burstow, Paul Hancock, Mr Mike Menzies, Mark Stuart, Mr Graham Burt, Alistair Hands, Greg Metcalfe, Stephen Sturdy, Julian Harper, Mr Mark Miller, Maria Swales, Ian Burt, Lorely Harrington, Richard Mills, Nigel Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Byles, Dan Harris, Rebecca Milton, Anne Swinson, Jo Cable, rh Vince Hart, Simon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Syms, Mr Robert Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harvey, Nick Moore, rh Michael Teather, Sarah Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morgan, Nicky Timpson, Mr Edward Carmichael, Neil Heald, Oliver Morris, Anne Marie Tomlinson, Justin Carswell, Mr Douglas Heath, Mr David Morris, David Tredinnick, David Cash, Mr William Heaton-Harris, Chris Morris, James Truss, Elizabeth Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Mosley, Stephen Turner, Mr Andrew Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Mowat, David Tyrie, Mr Andrew Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hendry, Charles Mulholland, Greg Uppal, Paul Collins, Damian Herbert, rh Nick Mundell, rh David Vaizey, Mr Edward Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Munt, Tessa Vara, Mr Shailesh Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Murray, Sheryll Vickers, Martin Crabb, Stephen Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Crockart, Mike Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Walker, Mr Charles Crouch, Tracey Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Walker, Mr Robin Howell, John Newton, Sarah Wallace, Mr Ben Davey, Mr Edward Hughes, rh Simon Nokes, Caroline Walter, Mr Robert Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris Norman, Jesse Watkinson, Angela Davis, rh Mr David Hunter, Mark Nuttall, Mr David Weatherley, Mike de Bois, Nick Huppert, Dr Julian O’Brien, Mr Stephen Wharton, James Dinenage, Caroline Jackson, Mr Stewart Offord, Mr Matthew Wheeler, Heather Djanogly, Mr Jonathan James, Margot Ollerenshaw, Eric White, Chris Dorries, Nadine Javid, Sajid Opperman, Guy Whittaker, Craig Doyle-Price, Jackie Jenkin, Mr Bernard Patel, Priti Whittingdale, Mr John Drax, Richard Jones, Andrew Penning, Mike Williams, Mr Mark Duddridge, James Jones, Mr David Percy, Andrew Williams, Roger Kawczynski, Daniel Perry, Claire Duncan, rh Mr Alan Williams, Stephen Kelly, Chris Phillips, Stephen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Williamson, Gavin Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pickles, rh Mr Eric Willott, Jenny Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Pincher, Christopher Wilson, Mr Rob Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Poulter, Dr Daniel Wollaston, Dr Sarah Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Pritchard, Mark Wright, Jeremy Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Pugh, John Wright, Simon Evans, Graham Raab, Mr Dominic Lamb, Norman Young, rh Sir George Randall, rh Mr John Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Reckless, Mark Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Redwood, rh Mr John Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Tellers for the Ayes: Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bill Wiggin and Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Reevell, Simon Mr Philip Dunne Featherstone, Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Field, Mr Mark Lee, Jessica 831 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 832 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill NOES McGovern, Alison Sarwar, Anas McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Seabeck, Alison Abbott, Ms Diane Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann Sharma, Mr Virendra Abrahams, Debbie Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain Sheerman, Mr Barry Alexander, Heidi Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Sheridan, Jim Ali, Rushanara Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Shuker, Gavin Allen, Mr Graham Flynn, Paul Meale, Sir Alan Slaughter, Mr Andy Ashworth, Jonathan Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew Austin, Ian Francis, Dr Hywel Michael, rh Alun Smith, Angela Bailey, Mr Adrian Gardiner, Barry Miliband, rh David Smith, Nick Bain, Mr William Gilmore, Sheila Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Owen Balls, rh Ed Glass, Pat Miller, Andrew Spellar, rh Mr John Banks, Gordon Glindon, Mrs Mary Moon, Mrs Madeleine Straw, rh Mr Jack Barron, rh Mr Kevin Godsiff, Mr Roger Morden, Jessica Stringer, Graham Beckett, rh Margaret Goggins, rh Paul Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Begg, Dame Anne Goodman, Helen Morris, Grahame M. Tami, Mark Bell, Sir Stuart Greatrex, Tom (Easington) Thomas, Mr Gareth Benn, rh Hilary Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Thornberry, Emily Berger, Luciana Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Timms, rh Stephen Betts, Mr Clive Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim Trickett, Jon Blackman-Woods, Roberta Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Turner, Karl Blears, rh Hazel Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Twigg, Derek Blenkinsop, Tom Hamilton, Fabian Nandy, Lisa Twigg, Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona Umunna, Mr Chuka Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Vaz, Valerie Brennan, Kevin Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Walley, Joan Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Havard, Mr Dai Pearce, Teresa Ward, Mr David Brown, Mr Russell Healey, rh John Perkins, Toby Whitehead, Dr Alan Bryant, Chris Hendrick, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Buck, Ms Karen Hepburn, Mr Stephen Wicks, rh Malcolm Pound, Stephen Burden, Richard Heyes, David Williams, Hywel Qureshi, Yasmin Campbell, Mr Alan Hillier, Meg Williamson, Chris Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hilling, Julie Wilson, Phil Reed, Mr Jamie Caton, Martin Hodge, rh Margaret Winnick, Mr David Reeves, Rachel Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hoey, Kate Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Reynolds, Jonathan Clark, Katy Hood, Mr Jim Woodcock, John Riordan, Mrs Linda Coaker, Vernon Hopkins, Kelvin Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Robertson, John Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Wright, David Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Cooper, Rosie Jackson, Glenda Wright, Mr Iain Rotheram, Steve Cooper, rh Yvette James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Crausby, Mr David Jamieson, Cathy Tellers for the Noes: Ruane, Chris Creagh, Mary Jarvis, Dan Lyn Brown and Ruddock, rh Joan Creasy, Stella Johnson, Diana Mr David Anderson Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Cryer, John Jones, Helen Question accordingly agreed to. Cunningham, Alex Jones, Susan Elan Lords amendment 1 disagreed to. Cunningham, Mr Jim Jowell, rh Tessa Cunningham, Tony Joyce, Eric Curran, Margaret Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald 8.16 pm Dakin, Nic Keeley, Barbara Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, this day). Danczuk, Simon Kendall, Liz The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary Darling, rh Mr Alistair Khan, rh Sadiq for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that David, Mr Wayne Lammy, rh Mr David time (Standing Order No. 83F). De Piero, Gloria Lavery, Ian Denham, rh Mr John Lazarowicz, Mark Lords amendments 2 to 4 and 6 disagreed to. Leslie, Chris Dobbin, Jim Amendments (a) to (d) proposed in lieu of Lords Lewis, Mr Ivan Docherty, Thomas amendments 1 to 4 and 6.—(Nick Herbert.) Lloyd, Tony Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Question put, That the amendments be made. Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Long, Naomi Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 224. Dowd, Jim Lucas, Ian Division No. 346] [8.17 pm Doyle, Gemma MacShane, rh Mr Denis Dromey, Jack Mahmood, Shabana AYES Dugher, Michael Mann, John Eagle, Ms Angela Marsden, Mr Gordon Adams, Nigel Baker, Steve Eagle, Maria McCabe, Steve Afriyie, Adam Baldry, Tony Edwards, Jonathan McCann, Mr Michael Aldous, Peter Baldwin, Harriett Efford, Clive McCarthy, Kerry Alexander, rh Danny Barclay, Stephen Elliott, Julie McClymont, Gregg Amess, Mr David Barker, Gregory Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonagh, Siobhain Andrew, Stuart Barwell, Gavin Engel, Natascha McDonnell, John Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Bebb, Guto Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Baker, Norman Beith, rh Sir Alan 833 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 834 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Bellingham, Mr Henry Fox,rhDrLiam Leech, Mr John Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Benyon, Richard Francois, rh Mr Mark Lefroy, Jeremy Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Berry, Jake Freer, Mike Leslie, Charlotte Robertson, Mr Laurence Bingham, Andrew Fullbrook, Lorraine Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rogerson, Dan Binley, Mr Brian Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Rudd, Amber Birtwistle, Gordon Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Ruffley, Mr David Blackman, Bob Garnier, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Russell, Bob Blackwood, Nicola Gauke, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Rutley, David George, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Sanders, Mr Adrian Blunt, Mr Crispin Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Sandys, Laura Boles, Nick Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Scott, Mr Lee Bone, Mr Peter Glen, John Luff, Peter Selous, Andrew Bottomley, Sir Peter Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Shapps, rh Grant Bradley, Karen Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Sharma, Alok Brady, Mr Graham Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne Shelbrooke, Alec Brake, rh Tom Gray, Mr James Maude, rh Mr Francis Skidmore, Chris Bray, Angie Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Smith, Miss Chloe Brazier, Mr Julian Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Smith, Henry Brine, Mr Steve Greening, Justine McCartney, Jason Smith, Sir Robert Brokenshire, James Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Soames, rh Nicholas Brooke, Annette Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Bruce, Fiona Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Stevenson, John Bruce, rh Malcolm Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Stewart, Bob Buckland, Mr Robert Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Stewart, Iain Burley, Mr Aidan Hammond, Stephen Mensch, Louise Stewart, Rory Menzies, Mark Stride, Mel Burns, Conor Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Burns, rh Mr Simon Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Maria Sturdy, Julian Burrowes, Mr David Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Swales, Ian Burstow, Paul Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Burt, Alistair Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Swinson, Jo Burt, Lorely Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Syms, Mr Robert Byles, Dan Hart, Simon Morgan, Nicky Teather, Sarah Cable, rh Vince Harvey, Nick Morris, Anne Marie Timpson, Mr Edward Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, David Tomlinson, Justin Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Heald, Oliver Morris, James Tredinnick, David Carmichael, Neil Heath, Mr David Mosley, Stephen Truss, Elizabeth Carswell, Mr Douglas Heaton-Harris, Chris Mowat, David Turner, Mr Andrew Chishti, Rehman Hemming, John Mulholland, Greg Uppal, Paul Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Mundell, rh David Vaizey, Mr Edward Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hendry, Charles Munt, Tessa Vara, Mr Shailesh Collins, Damian Herbert, rh Nick Murray, Sheryll Vickers, Martin Colvile, Oliver Hinds, Damian Murrison, Dr Andrew Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hoban, Mr Mark Neill, Robert Walker, Mr Charles Crabb, Stephen Hollingbery, George Newmark, Mr Brooks Walker, Mr Robin Crockart, Mike Hopkins, Kris Newton, Sarah Wallace, Mr Ben Nokes, Caroline Walter, Mr Robert Crouch, Tracey Howell, John Norman, Jesse Watkinson, Angela Davey, Mr Edward Hughes, rh Simon Nuttall, Mr David Weatherley, Mike Davies, Glyn Huhne, rh Chris O’Brien, Mr Stephen Wharton, James Davis, rh Mr David Huppert, Dr Julian Offord, Mr Matthew Wheeler, Heather de Bois, Nick Jackson, Mr Stewart Ollerenshaw, Eric White, Chris Dinenage, Caroline James, Margot Opperman, Guy Whittaker, Craig Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Javid, Sajid Patel, Priti Whittingdale, Mr John Dorries, Nadine Jenkin, Mr Bernard Penning, Mike Wiggin, Bill Doyle-Price, Jackie Jones, Andrew Percy, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark Drax, Richard Jones, Mr David Perry, Claire Williams, Roger Duddridge, James Kawczynski, Daniel Phillips, Stephen Williams, Stephen Duncan, rh Mr Alan Kelly, Chris Pickles, rh Mr Eric Williamson, Gavin Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pincher, Christopher Willott, Jenny Ellis, Michael Kirby, Simon Poulter, Dr Daniel Wilson, Mr Rob Ellwood, Mr Tobias Knight, rh Mr Greg Pritchard, Mark Wollaston, Dr Sarah Elphicke, Charlie Kwarteng, Kwasi Pugh, John Wright, Jeremy Eustice, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Raab, Mr Dominic Wright, Simon Randall, rh Mr John Evans, Graham Lamb, Norman Young, rh Sir George Reckless, Mark Evans, Jonathan Lancaster, Mark Zahawi, Nadhim Evennett, Mr David Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Redwood, rh Mr John Rees-Mogg, Jacob Fabricant, Michael Latham, Pauline Tellers for the Ayes: Reevell, Simon Mark Hunter and Fallon, Michael Laws, rh Mr David Reid, Mr Alan Mr Philip Dunne Featherstone, Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Field, Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip 835 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 836 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill NOES McDonagh, Siobhain Ruddock, rh Joan McDonnell, John Sarwar, Anas Abbott, Ms Diane Evans, Chris McFadden, rh Mr Pat Seabeck, Alison Abrahams, Debbie Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Alison Sharma, Mr Virendra Alexander, Heidi Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Sheerman, Mr Barry Ali, Rushanara Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Sheridan, Jim Allen, Mr Graham Flint, rh Caroline McKenzie, Mr Iain Shuker, Gavin Ashworth, Jonathan Flynn, Paul McKinnell, Catherine Slaughter, Mr Andy Austin, Ian Fovargue, Yvonne Meacher, rh Mr Michael Smith, rh Mr Andrew Bailey, Mr Adrian Francis, Dr Hywel Meale, Sir Alan Bain, Mr William Gardiner, Barry Smith, Angela Mearns, Ian Balls, rh Ed Gilmore, Sheila Smith, Nick Michael, rh Alun Banks, Gordon Glass, Pat Smith, Owen Miliband, rh David Barron, rh Mr Kevin Glindon, Mrs Mary Spellar, rh Mr John Miliband, rh Edward Beckett, rh Margaret Godsiff, Mr Roger Straw, rh Mr Jack Miller, Andrew Begg, Dame Anne Goggins, rh Paul Stringer, Graham Moon, Mrs Madeleine Bell, Sir Stuart Goodman, Helen Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Morden, Jessica Benn, rh Hilary Greatrex, Tom Tami, Mark Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Berger, Luciana Green, Kate Thomas, Mr Gareth Morris, Grahame M. Betts, Mr Clive Greenwood, Lilian Thornberry, Emily (Easington) Blackman-Woods, Roberta Griffith, Nia Timms, rh Stephen Mudie, Mr George Blears, rh Hazel Gwynne, Andrew Trickett, Jon Munn, Meg Blenkinsop, Tom Hamilton, Mr David Murphy, rh Mr Jim Turner, Karl Blunkett, rh Mr David Hamilton, Fabian Murphy, rh Paul Twigg, Derek Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Hanson, rh Mr David Murray, Ian Twigg, Stephen Brennan, Kevin Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nandy, Lisa Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Vaz, Valerie Brown, Mr Russell Havard, Mr Dai Onwurah, Chi Walley, Joan Bryant, Chris Healey, rh John Owen, Albert Ward, Mr David Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark Pearce, Teresa Whitehead, Dr Alan Burden, Richard Hepburn, Mr Stephen Perkins, Toby Campbell, Mr Alan Heyes, David Wicks, rh Malcolm Phillipson, Bridget Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hillier, Meg Williams, Hywel Pound, Stephen Caton, Martin Hilling, Julie Williamson, Chris Qureshi, Yasmin Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hodge, rh Margaret Wilson, Phil Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Clark, Katy Hoey, Kate Winnick, Mr David Reed, Mr Jamie Coaker, Vernon Hollobone, Mr Philip Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Reeves, Rachel Coffey, Ann Hood, Mr Jim Woodcock, John Reynolds, Jonathan Cooper, Rosie Hopkins, Kelvin Woodward, rh Mr Shaun Riordan, Mrs Linda Cooper, rh Yvette Irranca-Davies, Huw Wright, David Robertson, John Crausby, Mr David Jackson, Glenda Wright, Mr Iain Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Creagh, Mary James, Mrs Siân C. Rotheram, Steve Creasy, Stella Jamieson, Cathy Tellers for the Noes: Roy, Lindsay Cruddas, Jon Jarvis, Dan Lyn Brown and Ruane, Chris Cryer, John Johnson, Diana Mr David Anderson Cunningham, Alex Jones, Graham Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Helen Question accordingly agreed to. Cunningham, Tony Jones, Mr Kevan Amendments (a) to (d) made in lieu of Lords Curran, Margaret Jones, Susan Elan Dakin, Nic Jowell, rh Tessa amendments 1 to 4 and 6. Danczuk, Simon Joyce, Eric Darling, rh Mr Alistair Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald 8.30 pm David, Mr Wayne Keeley, Barbara Davies, Geraint Kendall, Liz Nick Herbert: I beg to move, That this House agrees Davies, Philip Khan, rh Sadiq with Lords amendment 5. De Piero, Gloria Lammy, rh Mr David Denham, rh Mr John Lavery, Ian Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): With this it Dobbin, Jim Lazarowicz, Mark will be convenient to discuss the following: Docherty, Thomas Leslie, Chris Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Lewis, Mr Ivan Lords amendments 7 to 42. Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lloyd, Tony Lords amendment 43, Government motion to disagree Doran, Mr Frank Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn and Government amendments (a) and (b) in lieu. Dowd, Jim Long, Naomi Doyle, Gemma Love, Mr Andrew Lords amendments 44 to 52, 54, 55, 58 and 60 to 79. Dromey, Jack Lucas, Ian Lords amendment 80 and amendment (a). Dugher, Michael MacShane, rh Mr Denis Lords amendments 81 to 97. Eagle, Ms Angela Mahmood, Shabana Eagle, Maria Mann, John Lords amendment 98, motion to disagree and Edwards, Jonathan Marsden, Mr Gordon amendments (a) to (c) in lieu. Efford, Clive McCabe, Steve Lords amendments 99 to 162. Elliott, Julie McCann, Mr Michael Ellman, Mrs Louise McCarthy, Kerry Lords amendment 163 and Government amendment (a). Engel, Natascha McClymont, Gregg Lords amendments 164 to 168. 837 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 838 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Nick Herbert: There are many amendments to consider, in the public interest, rather than having an adversarial and I shall be as brief as I responsibly can be in taking or political relationship. That concept of support and the House through them. challenge is important, and I am pleased that it has Since the Bill was first introduced, a number of points been introduced by way of these amendments. have been made against it, principally on the issues of The changes ensure that the London assembly will operational independence and the alleged politicisation have all the necessary powers to require reports of the of the police, and on the police and crime panel’s relationship Mayor and to decide the constitution of its police and with the police and crime commissioner being unclear crime panel. They will also allow the assembly to hold a with the panel having insufficient checks and balances binding confirmation hearing should the Mayor wish to to be able to scrutinise the police and crime commissioner appoint anyone other than an assembly member to the properly.I want to reassure the House that the Government post of deputy mayor for policing and crime. Our have listened carefully to those concerns. We spent many amendments will ensure that regulations regarding the months considering them, and I believe that we have handling of allegations of misconduct can be made in responded to all the key issues. That is reflected in the relation to not just police and crime commissioners, but amendments we made in the other place. to deputy PCCs, the holder of the Mayor’s office for I will not say any more now about operational policing and crime and the deputy mayor for policing independence, as we fully discussed that in our previous and crime. debate. I also alluded to the checks and balances, saying On PCCs working with police, the criminal justice that we had made changes to strengthen them, and I system and local government partners, the changes will want briefly to set out what they are. We have increased help to ensure that PCCs work well with their local the powers of police and crime panels by allowing a government partners by requiring PCCs to send copies veto of either the police and crime commissioner’s of their police and crime plans to community safety proposed precept or proposed candidate for chief constable partners and by placing a reciprocal duty on PCCs and through a two-thirds, rather than a three-quarters, majority. community safety partners to have regard to each others’ That was pressed on us early on, and we agreed to it. objectives. The changes will also ensure that PCCs hold The panel will also have the power to request the chief chief officers fully to account for the way in which they constable—or Metropolitan Police Commissioner in carry out their duties to co-operate in safeguarding and London—to attend before the panel to answer questions, promoting child welfare under the Children Act 2004. alongside the police and crime commissioner; that was Our amendments will ensure that PCCs have the right also urged upon us. powers to hold chief officers to account; they ensure The changes will also give the police and crime panels that PCCs can obtain the right information from forces more discretion to decide their own make-up, thereby and that the chief officer cannot borrow money or enter allowing a more diverse mix and better geographical contracts, except of employment, without the police spread. I know how important that is to many hon. and crime commissioner’s consent. Members. The panel will now be able to co-opt additional We are also proposing changes in relation to deputy members, and the provision restricting the number of PCCs. These will ensure that should a PCC wish to co-opted members to two will be removed. Instead, appoint a deputy, they would have to do so through a provided it is with the agreement of the Secretary of specific process and could not appoint certain people, State, panels will be able to co-opt further members, so for example, another PCC. That will ensure greater long as the total membership of the panel does not transparency in senior appointments within the PCC’s exceed 20. A local authority will also now be obliged to office. I should emphasise that there will be no requirement nominate a locally elected mayor, should there be one. to appoint a deputy PCC; our amendment will simply These changes further remove the provision preventing allow it to happen. That inserts further flexibility and co-opted members from being local authority members; localism into the Bill by allowing PCCs the freedom to instead, there will merely be an insistence that at least manage their affairs as they see fit. two must be non-authority members. That change allows We have discussed the appointment and dismissal of maximum possible discretion as to the panel’s membership chief officers and I raised it briefly in our debate on the and flexibility across larger force areas or areas where previous group of amendments. I wish to reiterate that local government structures vary. it is a key part of a PCC’s role and it is essential that it Similarly, we are freeing up arrangements in London, is properly undertaken. Chief constables should not where the London assembly will be able to decide the be appointed or removed on a whim or for improper composition of its panel and allow the panel to contain reasons. Police and crime commissioners must take persons who are not members of the assembly. Our these key decisions fairly and reasonably, and the approach will further allow the panel to decide the arrangements must include appropriate safeguards. We composition of its sub-committees, and allow for them have ensured that the chief constable will have the right also to contain non-assembly members. We have further to attend a hearing of the police and crime panel should strengthened the powers of the panel in London to they be facing dismissal, and to make representations at allow it to veto, by a two-thirds majority, a candidate that hearing, rather than simply being able to answer for the position of deputy mayor for policing and crime, questions. if that individual is not a member of the London We will also consult the Police Advisory Board for assembly.I remember discussing these issues in Committee, England and Wales on regulations for these arrangements. so I hope that the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive We have made amendments to allow a retired chief Efford) will be pleased that we have moved towards officer to be re-appointed as a chief officer, whereas some of the suggestions he was making then. The previously the Bill would not have allowed that. The changes place a new duty on the police and crime panel change will widen the pool of talent available to the to support, as well as challenge, the police and crime service and allow PCCs to appoint the right people to commissioner, helping to ensure that they work together the right jobs. I wish to repeat what I said about the first 839 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 840 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill group of amendments, which is that it is important to Democrat Benches. I understand that the amendment is get the checks and balances on appointment and dismissal an attempt to deal with what I know is a considerable right. I hope that what I have said this evening will concern—the matter was raised at Home Office questions reassure chief officers that the Government intend that today—about the position of Cornwall. As it is a unitary proper arrangements should be in place to deal with authority, it would have had only one member of the those procedures. police and crime panel under the Government’s previous On elections and eligibility, the changes would ensure proposals. As we debated the matter in Committee, that the elections for PCCs can be properly regulated by there was general recognition that that would have to be the Electoral Commission, especially in terms of campaign dealt with. We listened carefully to the concerns and spend. A lively debate took place in the other place that is why the Government amended the Bill in the about the role of peers in the House of Lords should other place to allow panels to co-opt additional members they wish to become a PCC. There was a strong feeling up to a maximum of 20. In the case of Devon and in the other place that peers should be allowed to stand Cornwall, that will allow an additional five councillors for this position and, following that debate, we introduced to be co-opted. If the councils agreed to that, once it changes that will allow them to do so. We will allow a had been submitted to the Home Secretary it could candidate to serve as many terms as a PCC as the public potentially bring Cornwall’s representation up to six wish them to serve, rather than be limited to two consecutive members, which is proportionately higher than its current terms. That will allow the public truly to decide who share of the police authority. they wish to serve as their PCC and heighten the The amendment would mean that when exercising pressure of democratic accountability over them. It that power, Durham, Devon and Cornwall and West seemed on reflection that the two-term limit, which was Mercia police and crime panels would have to try to a constitutional innovation in this country, was not make representation on the panel as proportionate to necessarily appropriate. the population as is reasonably practicable. Although I By introducing a two-stage process for the transfer of do not disagree with those principles, I believe we can police authority staff, the changes will allow police and trust elected local government representatives to make crime commissioners to be properly involved in the decisions in the best interests of the public. I do not decision about how staff will be split between themselves think that councils would want to take advantage of a and the chief officer rather than the decision being perceived benefit by denying other councils in their area made for them by police authorities before they come sufficient representation. Government cannot prescribe into office. That will be complemented by a power of in detail how those relationships can work, but it is the Secretary of State to direct a policing body to vary a important to note that the Secretary of State has the transfer scheme, which is an oversight power to ensure final say in approving the additional members of the transfers are handled effectively. I believe there is general police and crime panel who might be appointed. As I support among police authorities and chief constables said in a letter to the leader of Cornwall council, which for such a two-stage process. I copied to my hon. Friends who are Members of Parliament for Cornwall, the Home Secretary is fully I ask the House to agree to all these amendments and aware of the situation and the potential imbalance in to pause to note that they represent the fact that the membership of the police and crime panel between Government have listened to the debates on a range of Cornwall and Devon. We therefore expect that, in meeting subjects in the Commons as well as in the other place the geographical balance criteria now in the Bill, as a and responded by tabling amendments. That is contrary consequence of the amendment that we tabled, police to what the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and crime panels with balanced county representation was saying. We have listened on some of these important will be produced. That is now provided for in relation to issues and have shown ourselves to be willing to amend the new members. the Bill and to introduce the necessary checks and balances. 8.45 pm The Government tabled amendments in the other I fully understand why my hon. Friends seek to place to allow the police and crime commissioner to promote the amendment and I fully understand that suspend or remove a deputy or assistant chief constable they do not wish the power of determination about who who is standing in for the chief constable. I ask the should be on the panels to be in the hands of another House to disagree with amendment 43, because the county, as they see it, but I hope they will be reassured Government have tabled new amendments in lieu of it. by the important checks provided by the Home Secretary’s They achieve the same effect as Lords amendment 43 in having to approve the amendments and by the geographical respect of deputy or assistant chief constables, but also balance provision. I believe that we have acted in a way give the Mayor’s office for policing and crime the same that will meet the concerns of people in Cornwall about powers of suspension and dismissal in respect of an being properly represented on the panels. On the basis assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan police who of that reassurance and on the understanding that the is standing in for the commissioner. Meanwhile, we are Secretary of State will address these issues in the approval amending Lords amendment 163, which gave the police of schemes, I ask my hon. Friends to withdraw the and crime commissioner responsibility for complaints amendments. against a deputy or assistant chief constable who was Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I very standing in for the chief constable, again with the much appreciate my right hon. Friend’s reassurance and intention of applying it to London as well. I ask the his answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne House to agree to this Lords amendment, as amended. and Redruth (George Eustice) earlier. We like to have a Let me turn now to a couple of amendments tabled in lot of confidence that our colleagues in Devon will act this place. First, I want to discuss the amendment in the honourable way that the Minister has described, tabled by some of my hon. Friends on the Liberal but can we have an absolute assurance from him that if 841 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 842 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Sarah Newton] The changes that we have made will all help to bring about the much-needed democratic accountability to that were not the case, the Secretary of State would the public, while ensuring that the strict checks and intervene to make sure that Cornwall had its fair balances that we were committed to introducing are in representation on the panel? place, and that concerns about operational independence have been fully addressed. I am grateful for the scrutiny Nick Herbert: I am happy to reassure my hon. Friend of the Bill in another place, which enabled us to secure a that were proposals brought forward that did not give number of important amendments. I commend to the that proper, balanced county representation on the House our amendments and the approach that I have panel, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set out. would not be happy with those proposals. It is quite clear that Parliament’s intention in promoting these Vernon Coaker: It is fair to say that a number of the amendments is to ensure a proper geographical balance. amendments that the Government have accepted improve The changes are being made precisely and explicitly the Bill. The Minister was right to point out some of because there are situations in unitary authorities where them. I was particularly pleased to see Lords amendments 5 that would not be achieved. If there were any attempt to and 7, which place a duty on the police and crime subvert that by nominating members in a way that did commissioner with respect to the well-being and the not reflect the proper geographical balance, my right safeguarding of children, a topic that we raised in hon. Friend would not feel able to approve such a Committee. Those are important amendments with which scheme. I hope that my hon. Friend is reassured by we would all agree, and I am glad the Government have those comments, but the Government stand ready to accepted them. Many of the other amendments have meet her and other Members of Parliament from Cornwall, improved the Bill, given that following the last Division and the leader of Cornwall council if that is appropriate the Bill is going through with provisions in place for the and he wishes it, to reassure them. Had the Bill not been appointment of police and crime commissioners. amended, I would have fully understood the depth of As a result of the Lords amendments, there is now a their concerns, but I believe that the amendments address requirement for elected mayors automatically to be them. members of the police and crime panel. I gently point On the Opposition’s amendments about the appointment out to the Minister that it will be interesting to see the and dismissal of chief officers, I have explained the clash of mandates that may occur when the mayor is changes that we have made and proposed on this issue. elected on one crime mandate and the police and crime Important safeguards are being put in place and will be commissioner on another. put in place through regulations. The Opposition suggest I shall not detain the House. As I said, I accept that that even though the panel will already be required to many of the amendments mentioned by the Minister scrutinise the proposed dismissal of a chief constable improve the Bill. I do not want to intrude on the private and even though the police and crime commissioner grief of Devon and Cornwall. I can only imagine the will be required to consider the panel’s recommendation, private meetings and surreptitious phone calls, amendments the panel should also be able to block the dismissal. I tabled and withdrawn, reassurances given about meetings, understand that that would be the force of their and so on. amendments, but that would give the police and crime panel the power to act as judge and jury on the police Amendment 98 and the amendments in lieu that I and crime commissioner’s electoral mandate to set the tabled would give police and crime panels the power to direction of the force and to hold the chief constable to veto the dismissal of a chief constable. I cannot for the account. It would also circumvent the governance structure life of me understand why the Minister does not want at of the chief constable, who is accountable to the police least some sort of power to be made available to either and crime commissioner, not to the panel. In establishing the Home Secretary through HMIC, or the police and police and crime commissioners, we are giving the public crime panels, whereby the dismissal of a chief constable a strong and powerful elected representative to hold can be vetoed. their chief constable to account. Ultimately they should To be fair to the Minister, the Government have rightly be able to appoint and dismiss that chief constable, changed the majority required to veto an appointment subject—in relation to dismissal—to the proper safeguards. from three quarters to two thirds, showing that they That power is available to police authorities. It is have listened in that respect, but why do they regard the fundamental to the reform. dismissal of a chief constable to be different from the I repeat that chief constables should not be appointed appointment? A police and crime panel can veto an or removed on a whim or for improper reasons. Police appointment or a precept with a two-thirds majority. and crime commissioners must take these decisions The Minister questions why we would want to fetter or fairly and reasonably. The amendments are not the in any way circumvent the power of a democratically right way forward. It would create an impossible situation elected individual when it comes to dismissal, yet they if, in effect, a police and crime panel were able to veto have done that with appointment and precept. The logic the dismissal of a chief constable who would otherwise seems to be that if that is wrong for dismissal, we would be properly dismissed under the arrangements that we not have it for appointment or precepts either. I say to are putting in place, as well as under the existing the Minister that I honestly believe that this is arrangements. That would produce an impasse. No a significant and serious flaw. Indeed, I think that it is a doubt the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) dangerous flaw. tabled some of the amendments in order to probe the The Government have included the protocol, which safeguards. I fully respect that, but I hope that on must be agreed by affirmative resolution of both Houses, reflection he will recognise that the amendment goes in the Bill, but we can imagine a locally elected politician too far and the Government would have to resist it. with sole responsibility for the police in their area 843 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 844 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill believing that they should be able to do certain things or Government Association, the Association of Police require the chief constable to do certain things. The Authorities, Liberty and individual Members I speak to chief constable could say, “No you can’t, because that are worried about it, too. If he does not want to give the breaks the protocol”. The Minister ought to tell us what panel the power of veto, he might like to know that in would happen in those circumstances. Where there is another part of the amendment we say, “Okay, why not such a conflict, what will happen if the chief constable have a reserve power for HMIC to refer a dismissal to says, “I’m not doing that because it’s contrary to the the Home Secretary for her or his consideration?”Looking protocol”? at it, the Home Secretary would be able to say, “I believe Even if there is a legal means by which the chief that in this particular instance the PCC has got it constable could try to resist such pressure, each and wrong.” If the police and crime panel is not the right every hon. Member present can imagine the emotional vehicle for undertaking such a measure, why not HMIC? pressure and the strain on normal human relationships I hope that the Government are right and the situation that would result from knowing that, unless they conformed will never occur—that a police and crime commissioner to what the police and crime commissioner was asking, will never sack a chief constable for reasons that generally they could be sacked. Who stops the police and crime cannot be supported. But, the danger is of a Government commissioner from doing that? The Minister says that seeking to ensure the proper policing governance of this it is okay because the Government have amended the country which cannot happen. I am frankly astonished Bill so that the chief constable can now go to the police that the Government have not sought to include in the and crime panel and make representations. What use is Bill at least some sort of safeguard to prevent the that? misuse of that power. It really is unbelievable. I cannot The police and crime panel, having heard those believe it, most people I speak to cannot believe it, and I representations and listened to the chief constable say, do not believe that if most Members thought about it “I am being treated unfairly and required to do things they would understand the logic of allowing appointments that are inconsistent with my view of how I should to be vetoed and precepts to be vetoed, but not dismissals. conduct policing in this area”, may actually agree, but It goes right to the heart of the Bill, and, as I have said ultimately it can do nothing. The police and crime panel to the Minister before, it is dangerous. can say to the chief constable, “We absolutely agree Such is the importance of the matter, I must say that, with you. The police and crime commissioner is acting from a procedural point of view, I should like amendment 98 unreasonably and has it wrong.” What can it do? The and the associated amendments in lieu to be put to the answer is nothing. It can veto an appointment, as I have vote at the appropriate time. said, but it cannot veto a dismissal. What sort of framework is that for the Government to set up? Mike Crockart: I want to speak in favour of a number of amendments. Before doing so, however, I make a 9pm plea from the heart as a new Member of the House. I am working with the Plain English Campaign to urge Our amendment would not even require a simple simplicity and transparency in product design and majority, because it accepts the Government’s logic and communications coming from the financial services industry. view that there must be more than just a simple majority. Having faced a minefield of amendments, amendments So, we accept two thirds, and a significant number of to amendments and disagreements with amendments police and crime panel members would have to regard over the past few days, I suggest that the Plain English the dismissal as unfair in order to veto it, but there is no Campaign could well assist this House with some of its power in the Bill at all. processes. That goes back to what I keep saying to the Minister: Let me start with amendments 70 to 78 and 80 to 83, if he wants to demonstrate that the police and crime which deal with the composition of the police and panel is more than what I think it is, he has to give it crime panels. Originally the Bill allowed for a minimum some teeth. In this area, however, the Government have of 10 members from local authorities, or one member quite clearly failed. He said, “We don’t want to give the from each authority for police areas with 11 or more police and crime panel that power,” and, in the remarks authorities, and two non-political co-opted members in that he just made to the House, “We don’t want the each instance. Our amendments in Committee sought police and crime commissioner to have to go to the to create additional capacity within the membership of police and crime panel, where it could act as judge and the police and crime panels. The Lords amendment would jury.” Well, by that logic the panel will act as judge and mean that there was still a minimum of 10 political jury on appointments and on precepts, but on the most members and two non-political co-opted members but fundamental question of all it will not be able to do so. allow for a resolution by each panel to appoint any There are few hon. Members present, unfortunately, extra number of co-opted members provided that the but I hope that others hear some of the debate, because total number does not exceed 20. I do not believe that most Members think it sensible to We spent a great deal of time on this subject in give that amount of power to a police and crime Committee and debated at least 40 probing amendments commissioner, however unlikely it is that such a situation to the Government’s initial proposals. Then, as now, the may occur. One hon. Member said that it is extremely key issue for the composition of the panel was how well unlikely to occur, but unlikely does not mean impossible, it could manage to meet its balanced appointment and it is incumbent on the House to include in the Bill objective as set out in schedule 6(30)(3), which bears something that would give us the safeguard that is required. quoting: Everybody I speak to is worried about the issue. “The ‘balanced appointment objective’referred to in this paragraph Senior police officers are worried about it, and, although is the objective that the appointed members of a police and crime I know that the Minister does not give particular credence panel (when taken together)…represent all parts of the relevant to these organisations, I must tell him that the Local police area”— 845 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 846 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Mike Crockart] majority to provide such a check on the executive. A veto by a two-thirds majority vote is given to the it says “parts”, not “local authorities”, to seek to ensure London Assembly and councils with directly elected geographical balance—and mayors in budget matters. That would be strongly preferable “represent the political make-up of…the relevant local authority, and would give suitable strength to the authority of or…the relevant local authorities (when taken together)”. panels. It would align the commissioner model with a That is a very important sub-paragraph. Our amendments tried-and-tested framework for holding a democratic proposing to increase the size of the police and crime executive to account. panels would have given the PCPs a small amount of The move to a two-thirds majority will strengthen wriggle room to meet those geographical and political local democracy and accountability, and it will be a balance objectives. That involved an extra two members major step forward. When I made that point in Committee, specifically to address concerns about balance. the hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) agreed The Minister agreed to reflect on those amendments, with me, so much so that he was desperate for me to and I am happy to see that what has come back here push the matter to a vote, despite the promise of the today is a significant improvement, not only on what Minister to reflect on the points raised. However, I took was initially proposed but on what was included in my the Minister at his word and I am happy to see these amendment. While my amendment would have given an amendments today. additional two members to help with the balance, these new proposals give a potential eight extra members who Vernon Coaker: You voted against them. could be co-opted on to a police and crime panel, all of whom would be subject to the balanced appointment objective. This is a significant change which gives the Mike Crockart: No, those are not the matters that the vast majority of PCPs the flexibility they will need to hon. Gentleman pushed to the vote. ensure that we achieve an effective body for reviewing In Committee, the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside and scrutinising the police and crime commissioner (Mark Tami) asked the Minister what percentage of across all the constituent local authorities. Of the 41 police amendments moved by Liberal Democrats were withdrawn areas, 31 would have the potential to use the maximum rather than pressed to a Division. He was told to work it eight additional co-optees and only five would have out for himself. I am happy to help him today. It was fewer than an additional four members. 100%. And yet, here we are with significant changes to The one question that remains, although the Minister the composition and powers of the police and crime has already dealt with it to a great extent, is what panels. The Minister said in Committee: constitutes, or indeed necessitates, the agreement of the “We are all adjusting to coalition politics, but it is interesting Secretary of State to allow for the further co-opted that Opposition Members are finding it harder than we are.”––[Official members to be appointed. It is clear that this power is Report, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Public Bill Committee, necessary. It would be bitter-sweet to have identified the 8 February 2011; c. 456.] issue and proposed the amendment to deal with it only Seven months on, that does not seem to have changed. for the Secretary of State to fail to agree to the use of Finally, I would like to consider a missed opportunity that power. I would like to hear more about what that the Government may live to regret, although I hope circumstances the Secretary of State would take into not. Government Lords amendments 33, 87 and 88 account before making that decision—as, I am sure, relate to clause 31, which covers the suspension of would those who tabled amendment 80. I do, however, police and crime commissioners. We discussed this provision thank the Minister for listening and welcome this in Committee and identified a drafting error, which I improvement to the Bill. am happy to see has been corrected. We also discussed Lords amendments 69 and 98 deal with the power of whether the correct threshold had been set for suspension. veto for police and crime panels over the setting of the At present, suspension is possible only when an individual precept and the proposed appointment of a chief constable. is charged with an offence punishable by a The issue that consumed more time in Committee than any other was that of the powers available to the PCP to “term of imprisonment exceeding two years.” discharge its duty to review and scrutinise the decisions That threshold rules out a number of potential charges and actions of the commissioner. We had a wide-ranging which, were they hanging over him, would seem to debate that examined many possible additional powers. make it incredible that a police and crime commissioner We agreed that the sharpest teeth—or some might could continue to hold a chief constable to account. argue the only teeth—that the PCP will have is the Those charges include assault with intent to resist arrest, power to veto the proposed precept and the proposed racially or religiously aggravated assault, racially or appointment of a chief constable. religiously aggravated harassment and a number of I tabled amendments in Committee to achieve precisely others that were outlined in Committee. I am disappointed what is now being proposed by the Government. In that the Minister, after reflecting, has not included this doing so, I challenged the Minister to reflect on whether change in his amendments. any other veto power had such a high threshold of 75%. The Minister did propose that the power for a police We argued, with the support of the Local Government and crime commissioner to stand down voluntarily Association, that the three-quarters majority required would be introduced. He said that that would provide a for the veto was too stringent and impractical to provide better way to deal with such situations. Alas, unless I an effective block on the commissioner. No democratic am looking in the wrong place, that is not in the Bill or system places executive power in the hands of an individual in the amendments. That is a missed opportunity, because without providing suitable and strict checks and balances, it leaves the potential for embarrassing situations to and no strong democratic body requires a three-quarters arise. 847 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 848 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill 9.15 pm proposal, although their names are not appended to it, In conclusion, the proposals go a long way to and we heard another hon. Member raise this issue in strengthening the police and crime panels and, I believe, Question Time. will deliver the strict checks and balances as laid down The hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker), with in the coalition agreement. The Bill will bring about whom I had the pleasure of spending some time to public accountability of the policing function, and bring discuss the Academies Act 2010, said that he did not it out of the shadows and subject to the full scrutiny of want to intrude on any private grief in Devon and every member of the electorate. Cornwall. I can assure him that it is not grief, and nor is it private—we are here discussing the matter in public. It will not come as a surprise to him or anyone else that Vernon Coaker: I want to know exactly where the concerns have been raised in Cornwall, which is represented Liberal part of the Government stands on this. Can the by a unitary authority that brought together the functions hon. Gentleman tell us whether he supports my proposal of the previous six district councils and Cornwall county that the police and crime panel should have the power council to form one body. The concern is that, as of to veto the dismissal of a chief constable? right, we would have only one representative on the police and crime panel or crime and police panel— Mike Crockart: I will make it very clear that I do not whichever way round it goes. support the hon. Gentleman’s proposal, although there Nick Herbert: Police and crime. is an outstanding question and some further work is required. Employment law would look on the ability to Dan Rogerson: I defer to the right hon. Gentleman, dismiss someone without an appeal as being dubious at who has lived and breathed the panels for a long time. best, so there is possibly a legal aspect to look at. As we have heard, in neighbouring Devon, where However, when we look at the powers in the Bill on the they still have district councils, every council will get suspension and removal of chief constables, we see that representation on the panel, as I understand it, regardless the situation is not quite as simple as the hon. Gentleman of the huge disparities in population between some of makes out. It is not just a case of the police and crime the smaller district councils in Devon and the Cornish commissioner wanting to get rid of the chief constable unitary authority and the unitary authorities in Torbay and his being gone the next day.A long, public process—six and Plymouth—the major city on our peninsula. The weeks—is kicked off, involving the panel, notifications message coming strongly from members of the public and representations. and elected representatives—in the form of Cornwall I do not believe for a second that any police and councillors—is that they are deeply dissatisfied that this crime commissioner would set out on such an open and issue has not been resolved to the point where they feel public process without a very strong case for the dismissal that all areas are getting equal representation. I am of a chief constable. To do so would lay the commissioner sympathetic to that. open to a very high level of public scrutiny. I cannot see The Minister has set out, very helpfully, the possibility a publicly elected official opening themselves up to that of using co-option. As my hon. Friend the Member for level of scrutiny without sufficient cause. The process Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) said, that has been that the Bill lays out will effectively stop that situation pressed for a while, and I am delighted that the Government ever arising. have responded by allowing this flexibility so that local To conclude, the Bill brings public accountability of circumstances can be accommodated. We are familiar the policing function out from the shadows. Community with the police authority model—I accept that it is a safety, and the fight against crime and disorder, deserve different type of body—under which geographical areas nothing less. are represented. We want to ensure a range of views on those bodies, and co-option has been used to ensure that people from different backgrounds, for example, Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD): It is a pleasure are represented on those organisations. That is important. to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh Before the census this year, people in Cornwall pressed West (Mike Crockart), who has followed this Bill for the opportunity to recognise their Cornish identity throughout its passage. He served on the Public Bill and for it to be enumerated in the census. I was delighted Committee, as have other right hon. and hon. Members when a friend of mine sent me a picture of her son’s who are in the Chamber, and he has clearly devoted a data-monitoring form in Hertfordshire, where they were huge amount of thought over recent weeks and months able to circle “White, Cornish”. to what aspects of the Bill need to be amended. Given I am departing from the point a little, but I am merely that I am arriving at this late stage of the debate, I am trying to make the point that those of us in Cornwall grateful for the benefit of his thoughts, just as I am who are proud of our Cornish identity would not want grateful to other hon. Members for their contributions. to feel that we were being given less of an opportunity My hon. Friend referred to his work with the Plain to put our point across than our neighbours in the most English Campaign on simplifying the language of financial westerly English county, Devon. Amendment (a) would products and so on. For new Members and perhaps give a bit more of a steer on how the power of co-option those of us who are perhaps less familiar with speaking could be used to ensure that such concerns are dealt in debates on Lords amendments, he also pointed out with. I do not think that the amendment goes far how important it is to ensure that we get our terminology enough to reassure everybody in Cornwall that there is right. In that light, I am rising to speak to amendment equality of opportunity in seeking representation on (a) to Lords amendment 80, which is in my name and the panel, but given where we are in the passage of the those of my hon. Friends. Other Cornwall Members Bill, it is as far as we can go while still being in order, who are in the Chamber are very sympathetic to the given what is in Lords amendment 80. 849 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 850 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Dan Rogerson] legislation be drafted to take account of that. Perhaps that could be done through secondary legislation, to I want to ask the Minister about the Secretary of address specific examples such as Cornwall. I appreciate State’s discretion to approve or not to approve the that there is a concern about time—the Minister will pattern of co-option that members of a panel put to want to move towards the elections for police her. Clearly she could decide to reject a series of proposed commissioners, and therefore the appointment of panels— co-options on the basis that they did not reflect adequately but where only one or two specific areas are affected, the geographical make-up of that policing area. The following them up through such legislation might be a Minister pointed that out, helpfully, although I hope better approach. It might be too late to do that in this that it would not be necessary. As the hon. Member for legislation, given how it is drafted, but the message for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) said, we would the Government generally is that, as we have different hope that the members of the panel who were there as systems in different parts of the country, we should take of right would seek automatically to use the power of the opportunity to pick that up and deal with them co-option constructively to secure proper representation. separately without holding back the overall thrust of Hypothetically, however, should they not do so but legislation as it applies to the country as a whole. instead seek further to entrench the position of their I am grateful to the Minister for responding to that communities with regard to the make-up of the panel, it concern—he has corresponded with people back in would be reassuring to know that the Secretary of State Cornwall about the issue. However, I seek a reassurance could have regard to the need to secure equality and from him that should the panel not to seek to co-opt, therefore reject the co-options. there will be a direction from the Secretary of State or However, it occurs to me that were such a panel some discussion with the local authorities involved to happy not to alter the geographic balance, it might ensure that the debates that have taken place outside simply not put forward any co-options at all. That is the and inside this House—those that we have had this fear, although we are dealing with a hypothetical situation, evening, as well as over previous months, in other stages and I imagine—indeed, I hope—that, as the hon. Lady of the Bill’s progress—are taken into account, so that said, those appointed under the Bill as it stands would people are reassured and we can proceed to a panel in not seek to do that, but would listen to our debate today which people can have every confidence. and to the debate out there in the community, and would reassure people by using the power of co-option Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con): It is a in the way that the Minister has suggested would be pleasure to follow my hon. Friends the Members for helpful. Therefore, my question for the Minister is: if North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) and for Edinburgh those panels decided not to go down the co-option West (Mike Crockart). I wish to speak to Lords route, what message could be sent to say that the amendments 69 and 98. My hon. Friend the Member Secretary of State would be looking to them to act in for Edinburgh West is leaving the Chamber, but I would that way? What discussions might the local authorities just like to tell him that I enjoyed his contributions in have among themselves prior to the constitution of the Committee, and that when I was on a Home Affairs panel to address some of those concerns? Committee trip to Turkey, I spent several long bus journeys reading his voluminous contributions, including Sarah Newton: My hon. Friend is making a those on Lords amendment 68. He put the case for the comprehensive and thorough argument for the depth panel being able to veto certain mechanisms with a of feeling of people in Cornwall. He is getting to the two-thirds, rather than three-quarters, majority. I was essence of the issue, which is that we would prefer to persuaded by his arguments, and I welcome the fact have our positions in Cornwall by right, along with our that Ministers have now adopted those proposals. colleagues from Devon and the Isles of Scilly. Therefore, I oppose Lords amendment 98. I am also concerned our great desire is to have it made crystal clear this that, despite the late stage of the proceedings, the hon. evening—so far we have been unable to achieve this—that Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) does not appear we will have our positions by right and that the Secretary to have grasped a key element of the Bill. He seemed to of State will make every effort to ensure that we truly suggest that there was a distinction between the dismissal are represented fairly on that panel. of a chief constable, when the panel would not have a veto, and the appointment of a chief constable, on Dan Rogerson: I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. which he was correct. The veto of an appointment She is absolutely right, and that is the reassurance that would mean that the commissioner could not then people in Cornwall are looking for. Our amendment (a) appoint that individual. Presumably, if he then put to Lords amendment 80 is an attempt again to put on forward another individual whom the panel did not record the strength of feeling and the concerns that like, it could veto that individual as well and, in theory, exist. that could carry on ad infinitum, or until an agreement There is a wider point, which is that occasionally was reached. That would clearly be a veto. there are anomalies in legislation—this has applied to However, the hon. Gentleman went on—incorrectly, Governments historically—which, by their nature, will I fear—to draw a parallel with the setting of the precept. not apply to the vast majority of cases and are therefore He stated that a police and crime panel would be able to not felt to be at the heart of what that piece of legislation veto a police and crime commissioner’s precept. The is trying to do. However, as we—I hope—move as a Bill states that the panel may do that, but if the hon. country down the route of localism, where different Gentleman reads further in the Bill about the mechanisms authorities perhaps decide to take on different that would apply, he will see that it is far from clear that responsibilities and powers, it is important that we there would be a veto. In the case of a so-called veto of should have different ways of working locally and that the commissioner’s precept by a two-thirds majority of 851 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 852 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill the panel, the commissioner would have to “have regard” deciding what is an excessive precept? Will that be a to the veto, yet in the next step, he could set the precept single figure across the country, or will it respect the anyway. I presume, given the extent that he has to have different needs and requirements of all the different regard, that precept could not be exactly the same as the areas, particularly after the spending reductions? one he set before, but there is no mechanism to require What on earth is the point of having an elected him to do what the panel wants, or to allow the panel to commissioner and a panel of elected councillors if the come back. There might therefore have to be a slight key decision about the precept is left with the Secretary change to what the commissioner wanted, but it is quite of State—or, I fear, if these regulations do not do their wrong—despite the language in the Bill—to suggest job, and I cannot see how they will, letting it go straight that the panel has a veto or that it can in any sense be to the courts? What does “have regard” mean? We need judge and jury in this matter. an answer to that question; we need some mechanism to My concerns are accentuated by the proposed settle it. 15 November election date. In principle, I think that The mechanism I proposed—it was discussed on that is right, and it will fit in quite well with the budget Report—has not yet been developed, I am afraid. My cycle, at least as it is operated for police authorities. Liberal Democrat colleagues, the right hon. Member However, we shall then have the extraordinarily convoluted for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) and the process in which the panel will consider the commissioner’s hon. Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) have given precept and could then, with a two-thirds majority, veto this proposition their support and a number of my hon. it. The commissioner would have to have regard to that Friends have supported it, but in order to simplify the decision, but he could then go ahead and set the precept. process so that we do not have these four different So that is an extraordinarily weak power for the police actors setting the precept and also to provide some and crime panel. mechanism so that we know what will happen if there is On Report, the Minister told us that if there was a a dispute between the panel and the commissioner, I problem, a mechanism would exist whereby a referendum have suggested that the power to hold a local referendum could be held and the local electorate could decide should not lie with the Secretary of State, looking over between the police and crime commissioner’s precept the shoulders of these 41 actors across the country, but and the one proposed by the police and crime panel. that there should be a mechanism by which the panel That is not the case, however. The provisions for a can resolve a dispute with the commissioner. If that referendum on the precept are entirely unrelated to the panel is made up of local councillors and if the councils police and crime panel, or to whether or not it exercises in the local area had to pay for a referendum if such a veto, or to the degree to which the commissioner has were called, we know that the panel would exercise that to have regard to that. The process of setting the police power responsibly. If it felt that the commissioner had precept—a very small amount of the council tax—could not listened and had not had regard to what it had said, therefore have four different actors: the commissioner, this mechanism would provide the ability to deal with the panel, the Secretary of State and the local electorate. the situation—without the courts intervening and without There is, however, no mechanism to resolve any conflict infantilising the two new actors on the policing landscape between the panel and the commissioner. The commissioner by giving the Secretary of State even more power than will set the precept, and the panel could then say, “Hang he now has over setting the police budget locally, which on, you haven’t had regard to what we want.” The should be a matter for local democratic accountability. commissioner could say, “Yes, I have”. What happens No amendment has been tabled here to deal with that then? There is no mechanism for settling such a dispute. situation, although I believe that the amendment I We are told that there will be regulations, but they will proposed on Report would have done so. The mechanisms have to respect the Bill, which states that the commissioner in the Localism Bill, however, would allow the referendum must “have regard” to the panel’s veto. What will those to be used, but only if that Bill were amended to state regulations do? They will not allow a ruling that is that, in the context of policing, the arrangements were definitely in favour of either the panel or the commissioner. entirely different because a special panel of councillors Perhaps we should split the difference, or toss a coin. I from every council in the area and two independents suspect that, in fact, the regulations will provide for the had been set up to scrutinise the commissioner, to look Secretary of State to determine the precept, which over the budget and ostensibly to veto it. With that veto, would be a complete reversal of the intention of the however, nothing much can be done: the commissioner Bill, which is to devolve power. So we are going to set up has to have regard, and then we know not what. an elected commissioner and a panel of elected councillors, I propose that we should frame an enabling power acting as checks and balances on each other, but if they within the Localism Bill. It would not require Ministers disagree over the key issue of the police precept, we to do anything, but it would leave all the options for shall have no answer to the question of what will regulation open to the Home Secretary, as previously happen next. discussed. If, between now and November next year, a I fear that if the Secretary of State sets the precept, mechanism for the budget that will work can be developed, we infantilise these two new actors even before they are and will not lead to litigation and if that mechanism set up. How can they act as a check and balance against will not leave the Minister to decide what is going to each other if they are looking over their shoulder to the happen all the time, and if the referendum proposals for Secretary of State? How can the police and crime policing can be allowed for in the Localism Bill to commissioner develop a mature, responsible relationship enable the panel rather than the Secretary of State to with his chief constable if he cannot even get that chief decide, that could provide a mechanism for precept-setting constable money in return for the two of them agreeing that works, that empowers local democracy and that a strategy to improve the local area? Do we still envisage will not have this House and this Government blamed the Secretary of State looking over 41 force areas and for every local decision about the precept or police 853 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 854 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill [Mark Reckless] dispute between the panel and the commissioner, the provision would have to be on the face of the Police numbers. Instead, it would provide a chance for that Reform and Social Responsibility Bill or, perhaps better, panel, that commissioner and that chief constable to the Localism Bill, for the panel rather than the Secretary develop a mature, local and responsible relationship. of State to have that power. Without that, we are left solely with the “have regard” formulation. Nick Herbert: We have had a good debate and a rather more technical one on this group of amendments. Nick Herbert: I hope to be able to answer my hon. The hon. Member for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) began Friend’s question in a moment. by setting out the reasons for his amendment that was I had already sought to addressthe issue of the position intended to achieve a veto over the dismissal of chief of Cornwall as a unitary authority, which my hon. constables on the part of the panel. I addressed the Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) issue when I first spoke to this group, so I shall not raised very well with his amendment. I hope that my detain the House by repeating all those arguments, earlier comments about the power under the Bill will except to say that I think there is a distinction between help to answer his concern. the area of the appointment of the chief constable and Having spotted that the amendment did not allow the that of dismissal. Secretary of State to impose unilaterally members who I assure the hon. Gentleman that there is process had not been proposed by the police and crime panel, around dismissal, as my hon. Friend the Member for the hon. Gentleman raised the interesting question of Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) pointed out very well. what would happen if the panel did not propose any We are introducing further safeguards in regulations, co-opted members. He was right to suggest that we and we have given a stronger role to the inspectorate of would not have the power of direction, but discussions constabulary. The exercise of the power of dismissal is would of course take place, and I have already indicated not untrammelled: proper safeguards are in place. However, that we would be unhappy if a proposal for additional giving a panel of appointees the power of veto over a members of the Devon and Cornwall police and crime dismissal that would be merited under the existing panel did not reflect geographical balance. We would arrangements and through proper process, and allowing certainly seek meetings with the relevant local authorities them to insist that the chief constable remain in office to discuss the issue. when the police and crime commissioner legitimately wished that chief constable removed, would be a recipe 9.45 pm for complete deadlock in local policing. That is one I think it was right to give the power to local authorities, reason why it would be inappropriate to extend the veto because that is the basis on which a panel is constituted in that regard. I fear that we will simply disagree on the to decide on increasing the number of co-opted members, matter, but I agree about the principle that there should rather than the decision being imposed centrally. However, be proper process around dismissal. we have the ability to approve membership, and I believe that our safeguards are sufficient to ensure that a sensible Vernon Coaker: Should the Government find out that arrangement will be reached. We will certainly bring the there was a problem with the process in due course, full weight of Government to bear to ensure there is a would primary legislation be required to change it, or proper balance between Cornwall and Devon. could it be changed through an order-making power or My hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and Strood a process other than primary legislation? (Mark Reckless) raised the issue of the procedures relating to the veto that a police and crime panel may Nick Herbert: We are putting in place regulations in exercise on the setting of a precept, and the role of the relation to the procedures for when a police and crime Secretary of State in relation to an excessive precept. I commissioner wishes to dismiss a chief constable. We should like to clarify a couple of the points that he are discussing that with the police advisory board. raised, although I should be happy to discuss with him There is an order-making power. further an issue that he has raised with me separately, and about which he has written to me. Vernon Coaker: Is the Minister saying that, if the I can confirm that our proposed regulations will be Government were to decide in due course that a veto able to specify how a disagreement will be dealt with, power with respect to dismissal was appropriate, primary and to deal with what the phrase “have regard to” legislation would not be required to introduce it? would mean in such circumstances. What we have been trying to avoid is a situation in which there is endless argument about the precept, and in which the system is Nick Herbert: To clarify the matter for the hon. effectively halted. We must establish a mechanism to Gentleman, the procedures do not extend to the power resolve differences. of the panel. If we wanted to give the panel the power I believe that the regulations will deal with my hon. of a veto, that would have to be determined by primary Friend’s concern. I do not accept the claim that this is a legislation. The matter must, therefore, be settled now. I weak power simply because the police and crime have set out the Government’s case fully, but it seems commissioner must only “have regard to” the veto. I that he disagrees with us. believe that the police and crime panel has a de facto veto over a precept that it does not want, but procedures Mark Reckless: Will my right hon. Friend confirm for resolution must be built in. I should be happy to that what he is saying would apply also to my point? discuss with my hon. Friend how the regulations would Although the Localism Bill contains mechanisms for a work, and indeed we should be grateful for the benefit referendum, were we to want to use that to settle a of his experience as a member of the police authority. 855 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 856 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill As for the powers of the Secretary of State, I should The House divided: Ayes 202, Noes 300. point out that he will not decide the precept, but will Division No. 347] [9.53 pm decide the threshold at which a referendum should be triggered. Such a referendum would put the decision in AYES the hands of the people, so it cannot be characterised Abbott, Ms Diane Francis, Dr Hywel as a centralist power or a denial of localism. My hon. Abrahams, Debbie Gardiner, Barry Friend is a passionate localist, and he knows that I am Alexander, Heidi Gilmore, Sheila as well. I can tell him that I am satisfied that the final Ali, Rushanara Glass, Pat say would rest with the people, and, in that sense, would Allen, Mr Graham Glindon, Mrs Mary Anderson, Mr David Godsiff, Mr Roger be far more legitimate than a power exercised at an Ashworth, Jonathan Goggins, rh Paul earlier stage in the process by the police and crime Austin, Ian Goodman, Helen panel. Bailey, Mr Adrian Greatrex, Tom Bain, Mr William Green, Kate Mark Reckless: There are two potential issues in the Banks, Gordon Greenwood, Lilian Secretary of State’s involvement. One of them is to do Barron, rh Mr Kevin Griffith, Nia with setting an excessive precept level in respect of the Beckett, rh Margaret Gwynne, Andrew Localism Bill, and the other arises when a panel vetoes Bell, Sir Stuart Hamilton, Mr David and the commissioner “has regard to” and the panel Berger, Luciana Hanson, rh Mr David and the commissioner have a dispute. My concern is Betts, Mr Clive Harris, Mr Tom that unless the commissioner or panel make a decision— Blackman-Woods, Roberta Havard, Mr Dai although I cannot see how that can happen given the Blears, rh Hazel Healey, rh John reference to “have regard”—these regulations will lead Blenkinsop, Tom Hendrick, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr David Hepburn, Mr Stephen to an appeal to the Secretary of State, who will then in Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Heyes, David some respect have even greater central power than under Brennan, Kevin Hillier, Meg the current system. Brown, Lyn Hilling, Julie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hodge, rh Margaret Nick Herbert: I appreciate my hon. Friend’s point to Brown, Mr Russell Hoey, Kate the extent that there are two checks in this process: the Bryant, Chris Hood, Mr Jim check that is provided by the police and crime panel, Buck, Ms Karen Hopkins, Kelvin thereby giving a voice to local authorities in this matter, Burden, Richard Irranca-Davies, Huw with every local authority in the policing area represented Campbell, Mr Alan James, Mrs Siân C. on the panel; and the check that is provided ultimately Caton, Martin Jamieson, Cathy by the people, triggered by the Secretary of State suggesting Chapman, Mrs Jenny Jarvis, Dan that there may be an excessive precept and substituting, Clark, Katy Johnson, rh Alan effectively, a democratic lock for an administrative lock. Coaker, Vernon Johnson, Diana Coffey, Ann Jones, Graham My hon. Friend is right that two procedures are riding Cooper, Rosie Jones, Helen side by side in this respect, and we have to work out how Cooper, rh Yvette Jones, Mr Kevan they fit together. We hope to achieve that through the Corbyn, Jeremy Jones, Susan Elan regulations. We are, effectively, following the proposals Crausby, Mr David Joyce, Eric on the democratic lock set out in the Localism Bill, but Creasy, Stella Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald I repeat that I would be very happy to have a meeting Cruddas, Jon Keeley, Barbara with my hon. Friend to discuss how these regulations Cryer, John Kendall, Liz will be shaped and how we might establish procedures Cunningham, Alex Lammy, rh Mr David that are workable and that ensure policing does not Cunningham, Mr Jim Lavery, Ian grind to a halt if there is a dispute. I hope that what Cunningham, Tony Lazarowicz, Mark I have said reassures my hon. Friend in the interim, and Curran, Margaret Leslie, Chris I look forward to having those discussions with him. Dakin, Nic Llwyd, rh Mr Elfyn Danczuk, Simon Long, Naomi I think I have now responded to all the issues raised Darling, rh Mr Alistair Love, Mr Andrew in what has been a useful, if somewhat technical, debate. David, Mr Wayne Lucas, Ian Davies, Geraint MacShane, rh Mr Denis Lords amendment 5 agreed to. De Piero, Gloria Mactaggart, Fiona Lords amendments 7 to 42 agreed to. Dobbin, Jim Mahmood, Shabana Lords amendment 43 disagreed to. Docherty, Thomas Mann, John Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Marsden, Mr Gordon Government amendments (a) and (b) made in lieu of Donohoe, Mr Brian H. McCabe, Steve Lords amendment 43. Dowd, Jim McCann, Mr Michael Lords amendments 44 to 52, 54, 55, 58 and 60 to 97 Doyle, Gemma McCarthy, Kerry agreed to. Dugher, Michael McClymont, Gregg Edwards, Jonathan McDonagh, Siobhain Efford, Clive McDonnell, John Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Alison Schedule 8 Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne APPOINTMENT,SUSPENSION AND REMOVAL OF SENIOR Fitzpatrick, Jim McKenzie, Mr Iain POLICE OFFICERS Flello, Robert McKinnell, Catherine Motion made, and Question put, That this House Flynn, Paul Meacher, rh Mr Michael disagrees with Lords amendment 98.—(Mark Tami.) Fovargue, Yvonne Meale, Sir Alan 857 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Police Reform and Social 858 Responsibility Bill Responsibility Bill Mearns, Ian Sheerman, Mr Barry Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Jackson, Mr Stewart Michael, rh Alun Sheridan, Jim Dorries, Nadine James, Margot Miliband, rh David Shuker, Gavin Doyle-Price, Jackie Javid, Sajid Miller, Andrew Slaughter, Mr Andy Drax, Richard Jenkin, Mr Bernard Moon, Mrs Madeleine Smith, rh Mr Andrew Duddridge, James Johnson, Gareth Morden, Jessica Smith, Nick Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jones, Andrew Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Smith, Owen Duncan Smith, rh Mr Iain Jones, Mr David Morris, Grahame M. Spellar, rh Mr John Dunne, Mr Philip Kawczynski, Daniel (Easington) Straw, rh Mr Jack Ellis, Michael Kelly, Chris Mudie, Mr George Stringer, Graham Ellison, Jane Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Munn, Meg Sutcliffe, Mr Gerry Ellwood, Mr Tobias Kirby, Simon Murphy, rh Paul Tami, Mark Elphicke, Charlie Knight, rh Mr Greg Murray, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Eustice, George Kwarteng, Kwasi Nandy, Lisa Thornberry, Emily Evans, Graham Laing, Mrs Eleanor O’Donnell, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Evans, Jonathan Lamb, Norman Onwurah, Chi Trickett, Jon Evennett, Mr David Lancaster, Mark Owen, Albert Turner, Karl Fabricant, Michael Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Paisley, Ian Twigg, Derek Fallon, Michael Latham, Pauline Pearce, Teresa Twigg, Stephen Farron, Tim Laws, rh Mr David Perkins, Toby Umunna, Mr Chuka Featherstone, Lynne Leadsom, Andrea Pound, Stephen Vaz, Valerie Field, Mr Mark Lee, Jessica Qureshi, Yasmin Walley, Joan Foster, rh Mr Don Lee, Dr Phillip Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Watson, Mr Tom Francois, rh Mr Mark Leech, Mr John Reed, Mr Jamie Whitehead, Dr Alan Freeman, George Lefroy, Jeremy Reeves, Rachel Wicks, rh Malcolm Freer, Mike Leslie, Charlotte Riordan, Mrs Linda Williams, Hywel Fullbrook, Lorraine Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Robertson, John Williamson, Chris Fuller, Richard Lewis, Brandon Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Wilson, Phil Garnier, Mr Edward Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rotheram, Steve Winnick, Mr David Garnier, Mark Lilley, rh Mr Peter Roy, Lindsay Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Gauke, Mr David Lloyd, Stephen Ruane, Chris Wright, David George, Andrew Lopresti, Jack Ruddock, rh Joan Wright, Mr Iain Gibb, Mr Nick Lord, Jonathan Sarwar, Anas Tellers for the Ayes: Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Loughton, Tim Seabeck, Alison Jonathan Reynolds and Glen, John Luff, Peter Sharma, Mr Virendra Angela Smith Goldsmith, Zac Lumley, Karen Goodwill, Mr Robert Macleod, Mary Grant, Mrs Helen Main, Mrs Anne NOES Gray, Mr James Maude, rh Mr Francis Adams, Nigel Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris May, rh Mrs Theresa Afriyie, Adam Brooke, Annette Green, Damian Maynard, Paul Aldous, Peter Bruce, Fiona Greening, Justine McCartney, Jason Alexander, rh Danny Bruce, rh Malcolm Grieve, rh Mr Dominic McCartney, Karl Amess, Mr David Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew McIntosh, Miss Anne Andrew, Stuart Burley, Mr Aidan Gummer, Ben McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Arbuthnot, rh Mr James Burns, Conor Gyimah, Mr Sam McPartland, Stephen Baker, Norman Burns, rh Mr Simon Halfon, Robert McVey, Esther Baker, Steve Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, rh Mr Philip Mensch, Louise Baldry, Tony Burstow, Paul Hammond, Stephen Menzies, Mark Baldwin, Harriett Burt, Alistair Hancock, Matthew Metcalfe, Stephen Barclay, Stephen Burt, Lorely Hancock, Mr Mike Miller, Maria Barker, Gregory Byles, Dan Hands, Greg Mills, Nigel Baron, Mr John Cable, rh Vince Harper, Mr Mark Milton, Anne Barwell, Gavin Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harrington, Richard Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bebb, Guto Carmichael, rh Mr Alistair Harris, Rebecca Moore, rh Michael Beith, rh Sir Alan Carmichael, Neil Hart, Simon Mordaunt, Penny Bellingham, Mr Henry Carswell, Mr Douglas Harvey, Nick Morgan, Nicky Benyon, Richard Chishti, Rehman Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Morris, Anne Marie Berry, Jake Clark, rh Greg Heald, Oliver Morris, David Bingham, Andrew Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heath, Mr David Morris, James Birtwistle, Gordon Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heaton-Harris, Chris Mosley, Stephen Blackman, Bob Collins, Damian Hemming, John Mowat, David Blackwood, Nicola Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Mulholland, Greg Blunt, Mr Crispin Cox, Mr Geoffrey Hendry, Charles Mundell, rh David Boles, Nick Crabb, Stephen Herbert, rh Nick Munt, Tessa Bone, Mr Peter Crockart, Mike Hinds, Damian Murray, Sheryll Bottomley, Sir Peter Crouch, Tracey Hollingbery, George Murrison, Dr Andrew Bradley, Karen Davey, Mr Edward Hollobone, Mr Philip Neill, Robert Brady, Mr Graham Davies, Glyn Hopkins, Kris Newmark, Mr Brooks Brake, rh Tom Davies, Philip Howell, John Nokes, Caroline Bray, Angie Davis, rh Mr David Hughes, rh Simon Norman, Jesse Brazier, Mr Julian Dinenage, Caroline Huhne, rh Chris Nuttall, Mr David Brine, Mr Steve Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian O’Brien, Mr Stephen 859 Police Reform and Social 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 860 Responsibility Bill Offord, Mr Matthew Stunell, Andrew Business without Debate Ollerenshaw, Eric Sturdy, Julian Opperman, Guy Swales, Ian Osborne, rh Mr George Swayne, rh Mr Desmond Patel, Priti Swinson, Jo DELEGATED LEGISLATION Penning, Mike Syms, Mr Robert Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Percy, Andrew Teather, Sarah Order No. 118(6), Perry, Claire Thurso, John Phillips, Stephen Timpson, Mr Edward ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION Pickles, rh Mr Eric Tomlinson, Justin Pincher, Christopher Tredinnick, David That the draft Storage of Carbon Dioxide (Access to Infrastructure) Poulter, Dr Daniel Truss, Elizabeth Regulations 2011, which were laid before this House on 20 June, Pritchard, Mark Turner, Mr Andrew be approved.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) Pugh, John Tyrie, Mr Andrew Question agreed to. Raab, Mr Dominic Uppal, Paul Randall, rh Mr John Vaizey, Mr Edward Reckless, Mark Vara, Mr Shailesh PETITION Redwood, rh Mr John Vickers, Martin Rees-Mogg, Jacob Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Reevell, Simon Walker, Mr Charles Spring Gardens Care Home Reid, Mr Alan Walker, Mr Robin Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Wallace, Mr Ben Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Walter, Mr Robert 10.12 pm Robertson, Mr Laurence Ward, Mr David Rogerson, Dan Watkinson, Angela Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD) rose— Rudd, Amber Weatherley, Mike [Interruption.] Ruffley, Mr David Wharton, James Russell, Bob Wheeler, Heather Mr Speaker: Order. May I appeal to Members who Rutley, David White, Chris are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, Sandys, Laura Whittaker, Craig affording the same courtesy to the hon. Gentleman that Scott, Mr Lee Whittingdale, Mr John they would want to be extended to them in similar Selous, Andrew Williams, Mr Mark circumstances? Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Roger Sharma, Alok Williams, Stephen Shelbrooke, Alec Williamson, Gavin Greg Mulholland: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Skidmore, Chris Willott, Jenny I present a petition on behalf of the Friends of Smith, Miss Chloe Wilson, Mr Rob Spring Gardens campaign group, a group in my Smith, Henry Wollaston, Dr Sarah constituency formed by families, friends and supporters Smith, Sir Robert Wright, Jeremy of residents facing the loss of their care home as a result Spencer, Mr Mark Wright, Simon Stevenson, John of a raft of care home closures across the city by Leeds Young, rh Sir George Stewart, Bob city council. Zahawi, Nadhim Stewart, Iain The petition states: Stewart, Rory Tellers for the Noes: The Petition of residents of Leeds, Stride, Mel Bill Wiggin and Stuart, Mr Graham Mark Hunter Declares that the Petitioners believe that Leeds City Council should act now to stop the closure of Spring Gardens care home in Otley; notes that the home is the only council-run care home in Question accordingly negatived. the Otley catchment area; also notes that most of the residents are Lords Amendment 98 agreed to. in their 80s and 90s and the closure of the home would severely disrupt their lives. 10.10 pm The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Proceedings interrupted (Programme Order, this day). urges the Government to encourage Leeds City Council to take The Speaker put forthwith the Questions necessary for the necessary steps to stop the closure of Spring Gardens care the disposal of the business to be concluded at that time home. (Standing Order No. 83F). And the Petitioners remain, etc. Amendment (a) made to Lords amendment 163. [P000956] Lords amendment 163, as amended, agreed to. Lords amendments 99 to 162, 164 to 168, 53, 56, 57, 59, 169 and 170 agreed to. 861 12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Swansea Coastguard 862

Swansea Coastguard is potentially a fantastic resource for power generation, but also a source of increased risk to people on the sea Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House and the coast. They have seen the increase in shipping do now adjourn.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) traffic in recent years and, even more so, the massive growth in coast and marine leisure activities in the area, 10.14 pm which has put more and more demands on our coastguard, but demands that the Swansea station has always been Martin Caton (Gower) (Lab): In April, together with able to respond to. five other south Wales MPs, I responded to the original coastguard reform consultation exercise, “Protecting There is a massive campaign, centred in Swansea, but our Seas and Shores in the 21st Century”. In that involving people around the Bristol channel. It is cross-party, response we expressed our reservations about the whole involving Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Labour and approach being proposed and the absence of alternative Plaid Cymru supporters, and many more people of no options. We argued that the proposals were so seriously political affiliation. A “Save Swansea Coastguard”petition and dangerously flawed that they should be withdrawn has so far attracted more than 100,000 signatures, and I to allow proper consideration of a new plan, built on understand that the number of individual responses to the skills and expertise of our coastguard, that properly the new consultation on the changed recommendation rewards them for their work and provides them with that call for Swansea to be saved will be at least in the adequate equipment and systems to deliver a service fit hundreds. Today, that campaign brought its message to for the 21st century. That remains my position. I believe the House via the River Thames. strongly that, in Wales, Holyhead, Milford Haven and In a letter to me on 16 December 2010, the Minister Swansea should all be kept open as 24-hour coastguard wrote: stations. “On the basis of an evaluation of the existing sites and the However, I will not use my time this evening to repeat facilities available at them, it is proposed that three of the proposed arguments made in that consultation process and in sub-centres be located at Falmouth, Humber and Swansea.” earlier, more general debates about coastguard reform This evaluation was on the basis of a location assessment in this House. Instead, I want to concentrate on the case document that provided the criteria for comparing the for the retention of Swansea maritime rescue co-ordination existing stations. We can only hope that this was a centre, which is based in Mumbles in my constituency. comprehensive piece of work, because it was the basis The Swansea centre is by far the busiest on the Welsh for deciding which network of centres could best deliver coast and, indeed, one of the busiest in the country, the service on which this country’s marine and coastal dealing with more incidents every year than Holyhead safety depends. and Milford Haven put together. It is responsible for the I was therefore surprised that the Secretary of State, whole coast from Carmarthen in west Wales to Gloucester in announcing the changed proposal, felt able to say: in England and down the Bristol channel on the English “In the light of a further review of the potential costs of side as far as the Cornish border. In doing so, it liaises vacating the existing sites in Swansea and Milford Haven which with six police forces and a large number of other has shown that there are no financial reasons to favour either professional and voluntary emergency services. It has a location” range of expertise and a track record that is second to and then go on to say, none. It also provides the base for the Maritime and “we should retain the coastguard centre at Milford Haven rather Coastguard Agency’s regional business unit, which deals than the centre at Swansea.” with accounts, surveys and so forth. I think that that is wrong. The Swansea centre is a In the original consultation document on the reform freehold building with a long-term ground lease, providing plans, it was proposed to retain Swansea coastguard, long-term security of tenure. There is virtually no rent. albeit on a daylight hours basis, and close Milford The Milford Haven site is rented at something like Haven. Then, in July, the Secretary of State for Transport £25,000 a year. reversed that recommendation in his statement on coastguard modernisation. I do not know whether the Both the Secretary of State and the Minister for Minister has any idea of the alarm and outrage that Shipping have also maintained that, from an operational have been aroused in the Swansea area and spread point of view, Milford and Swansea are level pegging, around the south Wales coast and down the other side but in fact Milford and Swansea have never been equivalent of the Bristol channel as a result of the statement. in operational capacity—if an objective judgment is made. One way to do so is to employ the very location Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend impact assessment criteria used by the Maritime and agree that, as the highest concentrations of incidents Coastguard Agency to choose the best sites for the are on the Gower and north Devon coasts, it is positively future coastguard network. perverse to consider closing Swansea, which is the busiest I am grateful to have received from the MCA a copy station with the more detailed knowledge of the greater of the document setting out those criteria. When we area? study it, we find that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to believe that it was used at all in deciding between Martin Caton: I completely agree with my hon. Friend. Swansea and Milford. One important factor that the People who know the coast and the waters covered by MCA highlights is the need to best utilise the agency’s the Swansea centre cannot believe that the Government existing property portfolio. It states: are proposing that there should be no coastguard station “This is particularly the case where there are other MCA anywhere on the Bristol channel. These people know functions currently co-located with an MRCC”. how dangerous a place the channel can be. It has the Swansea shares its centre with the MCA regional business second highest tidal range anywhere in the world, which unit and a radio site. 863 Swansea Coastguard12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Swansea Coastguard 864

Another criterion to be employed, according to the what they did. Perversely, Ministers decided to look at MCA, is population. It states: how many Department for Transport jobs there are in “Sub-centres would most sensibly be located in areas with a each location. reasonably large population and pool of job seekers to facilitate future recruitment”, Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab): I am sure and that is significant when considering Milford and that my hon. Friend is aware of the suggestion that Swansea, because in recent years the agency has found there might be too many Department for Transport it difficult to recruit in Pembrokeshire. In fact, of the jobs in Swansea. One implication in the Government’s past six coastguards appointed to Milford Haven, only proposal document was that there would be ample two have been from Pembrokeshire; the rest came from opportunity for coastguard employment in other areas, other parts of Wales, including Swansea. In addition, such as in the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency. the location impact document states that Martin Caton: My hon. Friend has a close association “it makes sense to have the sub-centres evenly spread.” with the DVLA, and I know that she knows there is no Switching from Swansea to Milford, however, makes overlap between its work and that of the coastguard. them less evenly spread. So, the Government say that Milford Haven should Finally, the agency states that have the coastguard. What nonsense. Any logical method “the broad co-location of a co-ordination centre with the volunteers of deciding the best sites for operational effectiveness of the coastguard rescue service, other search and rescue partners appears to have been abandoned and replaced with that and local regional resilience fora is a factor in the overall assessment strange new criterion, which can only be described as of preferred sub-centre locations”. arbitrary at best. Again, Swansea is the better site—even more so because In responding, can the Minister please inform the so many Swansea coastguards are also volunteer rescue House whether, when he and the Secretary of State officers. decided to recommend closure of Swansea and retention So, using the MCA’s own location assessment document, of Milford Haven, they took into account the quality of we find that Swansea outscores Milford on just about road, rail and air communication; available population every criterion. Swansea is by far the better location, for recruitment purposes; the fact that Swansea is larger, but a sensible location assessment process should look more flexible, rent free and has a much better broadband at other factors: the quality of communication links by link; the fact that the MCA regional business unit is road, rail and air; the comparison of facilities and space co-located with the MRCC and a radio site in Swansea; at the centres; the comparison of broadband links at the and the fact that MRCC Milford Haven is close to a centres; and hotel space availability in case of major number of sites relating to COMAH—the Control of incident. Again, Swansea proves the better option by a Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999? long way. If the Minister’s answer to those questions is yes, that prompts the biggest question of all: in that case, how on I hope that in responding the Minister will be able earth could he and the Secretary of State have come to to tell me whether those MCA criteria, and the other the recommendation that they did? I am sure that there factors that I have suggested, were used in deciding will be much speculation about that in the weeks and between Swansea and Milford. He should be able to do months ahead, but I will not go down that road this so, because we know that the decision was made by evening. Rather, I appeal to the Minister to look at all Ministers, not by the MCA. these factors now and after the consultation period ends, take them all into account and give them their due Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op): Is my weight. Maritime and coastal safety demands that we hon. Friend aware of the considerable concern of Swansea’s have the best network of maritime resource co-ordination inward investors, not just in tourism but in industries centres that we can achieve, and logic demands that that such as wind farms, shipping and ferries, about the risk includes Swansea. of removing Swansea? Given the growth of those industries, the value of those investments completely dwarfs the cost savings that the Minister is trying to engineer. 10.25 pm The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport Martin Caton: My hon. Friend makes a very valid (Mike Penning): It is a pleasure to respond to this point. debate, and a pleasure, at this time of night, to see so many hon. Members in the House to listen to a debate As I was saying, this was a ministerial decision. Sir about a very serious subject that the hon. Member for Alan Massey, the chief executive of the agency, told us Gower (Martin Caton) knows I take very seriously so when he came to Swansea. He said: within my portfolio. Earlier, I apologised to him personally “Ministers have made this judgement based on employment for the fact that my office had not informed him that I and that’s way above my pay grade!” would be in his constituency last Tuesday—an error for But that is not exactly what Ministers have done, is it? which I take full responsibility. If Milford and Swansea had been exactly equal, and When I took up this wonderful ministerial position I believe I have demonstrated that they are clearly not, I following the general election and my appointment by suppose that it would have been reasonable to have the Prime Minister I found many documents on my taken into account comparative unemployment in the desk, one of which was about the modernisation of the two catchment areas. If Ministers had done that, they coastguard. It is not traditional to have a shadow would have established that unemployment in the Swansea spokesman present in such debates, but the current area is worse than in the Milford area, but that is not shadow Minister was the Minister with my portfolio 865 Swansea Coastguard12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Swansea Coastguard 866

[Mike Penning] there was a picket. I pay tribute to the picket that happened in Swansea when I was there. As it was when the original consultation proposals were put on described in the press, it was a silent picket. The people the table. The situation that I inherited in this part of were unbelievably generous to me. When I went down the world was that there were three MRCCs. I have to to them after I had driven in to explain the process to emphasise to the public that these are co-ordination them, they listened intently and thanked me for coming. centres, not the places where the people who physically That is the response that I have had all around the carry out the rescues are based. I think there has been country. some confusion about that around the country. The volunteers are certainly not touched by this; in fact, Martin Caton: My feedback from the Minister’s visit their roles will be enhanced and there will be more has been very positive. People felt that he was really equipment and more people to facilitate the work that listening to them. He has just said that meaningful they do. consultation is important. I hope that he will really I inherited the situation that we would go from having listen to what the people told him in Swansea, to what I three co-ordination centres in Wales to having one. and my colleagues have said tonight and to the submissions Nobody disputed that at any time when I went round to that we will all make to the consultation. each of the coastguard centres. Everybody knew that the coastguard needed to be modernised. That had been the subject of dispute for many years, with huge disruption Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that to a national emergency service. As the hon. Gentleman intervention. As I said to the local journalists, I would said, we therefore made the decision to go with the not have been there if I was not willing to listen. Having original proposals of the MRCC and we went out to done the first consultation in the way that we did, I consultation on that basis. would not have gone through this part of the consultation, with the Secretary of State’s permission, if I was not I have said from the outset in all the debates, publicly willing to listen, because there would have been absolutely and in the meetings I have had with hon. Members from no point. various parts of the House and in places that I visited around the country, that we would come out of the consultation with a different set of proposals, because Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): Will the Minister otherwise there would have been no point in having the tell me whether, in the consultation process, any of the consultation—it would have been a sham. We have voluntary coastguards along the south Wales coast, the experienced sham consultations in this House over the north Devon coast and the north Somerset coast have years—I certainly did as a Back Bencher—and I would said that they—those who do the job on the ground—feel not allow that to happen. I was absolutely adamant that that Swansea should be closed and that Milford Haven we would go out and listen and ensure that we came out would be more relevant and appropriate, because my of the listening process with a 21st-century emergency Porthcawl coastguards are not saying that? service that had a resilience it did not have when we went in, and that we would look carefully at the concerns Mike Penning: I will continue to take interventions of the public and, probably more importantly, the and am happy to do so all night if colleagues want to coastguard—the experts who are there doing the job intervene, but it will affect how much I can speak and day in, day out—about the future requirements. whether I can respond positively to all the comments, which I hope to do. I will answer this intervention. The Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD): I want to draw the Minister’s consultation does not finish until 6 October, so it would attention to my constituency, where we have Brean, be wrong and improper for me to comment on any of which is a holiday destination, Berrow, and Burnham- the submissions until then. Just like the first consultation, on-Sea. Burnham-on-Sea is unique—it has peculiar all the submissions will be published online so that tides and very swift and difficult changes on the mudflats, everybody has access to them. That is only right and where any number of people and vehicles will become proper. That is not always the case with consultations stranded over the summer. I have visited the volunteers that are done around the country, but we said that we who make up the local crews for Burnham-on-Sea would do that and we did it with the initial consultation. coastguard and the Burnham area rescue boat. They The second part is different from the first consultation have such a hard job to do, and they are very alarmed, because it is restricted, which I will come on to, but as are local people, about the closure of Swansea, which people will know exactly what the emergency rescue would leave us in Somerset looking to Milford Haven, crews are saying and what others are saying. which is 60 miles to the west. One of the first things that was said to me in Liverpool was that people had been arguing about this for years Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Lady for that and that they knew they had to modernise. The Public intervention. If she bears with me, I will address those and Commercial Services Union, which was involved in concerns as part of my response to the hon. Member the negotiations long before I became the Minister, said for Gower. More importantly, the concerns were addressed that there were issues to do with pay, retention—which I to me only on Tuesday when I was in Swansea and I will know has been alluded to—and recruitment. One can come on to that. see why there are problems with recruitment in some As I was saying, we were determined to come out of areas, considering that the basic starting salary is about the consultation having listened to the concerns of the £13,500 a year. That makes it hard to recruit good public, Members of this House and, importantly, the quality people. As much as we rely on people’s coastguard. When I went around the country, the first determination to serve their community, they have to station that I went to was Liverpool. Just like on Tuesday, pay their mortgages and bills. We said that we would 867 Swansea Coastguard12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Swansea Coastguard 868 look at that. Right at the end of the meeting in Liverpool, Mike Penning: We have eight minutes left, and I have one of the senior coastguards stood up and said to me, taken many interventions. We would have been a lot “We said this should have happened nine years ago.” further on had I not done so, but that would not have Most of those who responded to the first consultation been fair to hon. Members. did not question me about an individual station. They The hon. Gentleman has made many points, and I did not say that I was a nasty, horrible person, that I will answer as many of them as I can. Many of them should not be doing this job or that I was only acting were made in the consultation process. Although I am for party political reasons. If people look at the changes unable to answer all the points today, when the consultation around the country, they will see that there are no is over we will respond. All the points that the hon. partisan politics involved at all. If anybody wants to Gentleman has made tonight will be part of the raise that point now, they may do so. There is a smirk on consultation. the face of the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon). I was trying to build a picture of the coastguard If she wants to show me anywhere in the country where around the country and of the people who actually do I have used party politics, I will give way to her. the job. I have said to Sir Alan Massey, the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, and Mrs Moon: The Minister gives me the opportunity to to my chief coastguards as we have gone around the respond, but I must tell him that there is a certain country that the Government know that 18 is not the cynicism in south Wales that a party political decision figure that should remain and that the figure should has been made in relation to the choice between Swansea be around about eight or nine. That was put to us in and Milford Haven. submissions from around the country. In Belfast, it was put to me that there should be eight. I asked the Belfast Mike Penning: I thank the hon. Lady for her honesty, coastguard, which works very closely with the Swansea but she should take a look at what I did around the coastguard co-ordination centre, why it had chosen in country. The Western Isles is a Scottish National party its submission to keep Swansea and not Milford Haven. constituency; Holyhead is in, I believe, a Labour Everybody who was there will know that Belfast said constituency; and I have shut Brixham in the west that its submission was based on the cost of closing country, which is in a Conservative area. I have taken Swansea compared with the cost of closing Milford huge amounts of flack, but people should look around Haven. the country before throwing those sorts of accusations To answer one of the points made by the hon. at me. I knew the hon. Lady was alluding to those with Gentleman, I came back to London and asked for those her smirk, which is why I gave way. I have not taken that costs to be analysed. I felt that if we were going to do approach in any shape or form. If I had done so, why this right around the country—hon. Members should am I looking at Holyhead in the way that I am? The remember that we had not come to our full conclusions previous Labour Government were going to close two on which stations should stay open and which should and leave one in Wales, but I will definitely come out of close, and whether or not that would mean having this procedure with two in Wales, no matter what happens. part-time, “day manning”stations, or 24-hour stations—I needed to make sure in my own mind, for when I stand Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) before the House and others, that the MCA’s early cost (PC) rose— analysis on the choice of Swansea or Milford Haven was right. When the figures came back, I was told that that analysis was not right. I was told that if we were to Mike Penning: I am not going to give way, because I come out of Swansea completely, it would be a very have exactly five minutes left. I wanted that answer out, close fiscal decision between Swansea and Milford Haven. because I saw the hon. Lady’s smirk. We then completed the process, Mr Deputy Speaker— Martin Caton rose— Geraint Davies: You’ve been demoted, Mr Speaker. Mike Penning: The smirk was not from the hon. Gentleman, and that accusation was not put to me at Mike Penning: Sorry, Mr Speaker. We have known Swansea at any time when I was there. I was praised at each other for many years, and I am sure you will not Swansea—they said that all the way through, I had take offence. Oh, dear. handled the matter in a non-party political way. That is We looked at the main concerns, which included the way I will continue to handle it. 24-hour stations and local knowledge. In the Secretary of State’s statement, we accepted those two points. We Martin Caton: The Minister has spent most of his felt that leaving the station open as what I, as an time speaking of the original consultation exercise. I ex-fireman, would call a “day manning” station was not have put many questions to him this evening, and as he right and we had to come up with a formula that would says, he has only five minutes to respond. Can we get on allow us to come down to the numbers that we needed to the latest consultation exercise and the points that to come down to while having the national resilience I have made in this debate? that we were looking for and a maritime operations centre or headquarters that could feed out in major incidents. So we made two decisions. The first was to Mike Penning rose— come down to the key station that stayed open 24 hours a day and to have one MOC, not two, which actually Mr Speaker: Order. For the avoidance of doubt, will give us enough money to keep it open 24 hours there are eight minutes remaining. aday. 869 Swansea Coastguard12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Swansea Coastguard 870

[Mike Penning] Haven—[Interruption.] It was covered by Milford. That is a fact. No one can argue with that. Had there been an The second decision was obvious. It was obvious to emergency, Milford would have covered it, just as the me when we were doing the work that, if we were pairs have covered for each other around the country. worried about topography, as I call it, being an ex-fireman, [Interruption.] He says, “No, no” from a sedentary and local knowledge, which was the general concern, we position. I understand his concerns. If I was in his ought to look at the pairs—or the twins or whatever we position, I would probably be fighting the same way, want to call them—which obviously cover for each but this has to be based on evidence, and the evidence is other regularly. That is how they have been structured. that these two stations co-ordinate more and work We did not have national resilience, which is why the closer together than any other two in the country. That coastguard co-ordination centres were paired off. They is why Swansea switched off on Tuesday, when I was covered for each other. Some were paired off quite there, and Milford took control. arbitrarily. For instance, Belfast was paired with the Hon. Members have talked about the concerns of Clyde. But they did it and it worked. We decided that, if constituents around the county, but on that day Milford those were the criteria for pairing, we would take one of had control. That is a fact. No one can take that away. the pairs away. They are in the consultation now because Whether or not there was a crisis—[Interruption.] Look, initially the proposals did not include Swansea. However, I am an ex-firefighter. If a control centre is open, it is having decided to move one of the pairs, logically we open. If there are appliances, there are appliances. The had to consult on Swansea and Milford Haven, as well cover on Tuesday was from Milford, as has been the as Liverpool and Holyhead—Liverpool was in the case on many occasions. I will let the hon. Member for consultation with Belfast and the plan had been to close Gower know when that has happened previously. Holyhead—the 24-hour centre in northern Scotland and the Western Isles and the single MOC. That was the Martin Caton indicated dissent. basis of the consultation now. Mike Penning: I was there. I saw it. Sadly, he did not. Jonathan Edwards rose— The hon. Member for Swansea East (Mrs James) was there. She knows. It is a fact. [Interruption.] It is not Mike Penning: No, I am not going to give way because rubbish—it is a fact. Sitting there and talking about an I have time issues. emergency service in such a way and just saying “Rubbish” On Milford or Swansea, I have listened carefully to is ludicrous. I know about this. I have visited all these hon. Members’ points, particularly on local knowledge, people. Milford covered and does cover on a regular the skills, the amount of work that the centres cover and basis. The pairing system works. It is one of the reasons so on. I can tell the hon. Member for Gower that, when that even the Opposition Front-Bench team have looked I was there on Tuesday, the Swansea centre was closed. at our proposals, which are a million times better than The co-ordination centre was closed—Milford was covering the proposals that they had. Instead of sitting there and Swansea that day. saying silly things from a sedentary position, Members should have a proper debate. That is what I have tried to Several hon. Members rose— have all the way through. We should try not to be partisan; we should try to be honest about what is Mike Penning: No, I am not going to give way. I have available now. given way quite a bit. On Tuesday, as on many other occasions, Milford covered while we held the meetings. If Milford goes Martin Caton: Had there been an emergency, Swansea down, Swansea covers, and vice versa. We are looking would have taken it on because pairing does not work. at—

Mike Penning: No. From a sedentary position, the 10.44 pm hon. Gentleman says that pairing does not work. He is House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order wrong. It was not open. It was covered by Milford No. 9(7)). 33WS Written Ministerial Statements12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS

the agreement will be subject to negotiation and final Written Ministerial agreement between Government and the transition trustees, this autumn. Statements The further consultation on legislation deals with the content of the proposed transfer order under the Public Bodies Bill, which will, subject to parliamentary approval, Monday 12 September 2011 transfer the functions of British Waterways in England and Wales to the new charity. The document provides further information about the legislation which currently relates to British Waterways, the principles underpinning ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS the functions to be transferred, and proposed amendments to legislation. It invites comments on the proposals specified. Because a full, 12-week consultation has already taken place on the principles of the transfer and this is a New Waterways Charity more limited consultation, it will take place over six weeks only and will close on 24 October 2011. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon): FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE On 14 October 2010, the Government announced their intention to move British Waterways in England and Wales from being a public corporation to a new EU Foreign Ministers Meeting (Sopot, Poland) waterways charity—subject to parliamentary approval. On 30 March 2011, I launched a high-level The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth consultation on this proposal. The consultation closed Affairs (Mr William Hague): I attended an informal on 30 June 2011. meeting of EU Foreign Ministers (Gymnich), which Today, I am announcing the publication of the was held on 2-3 September in Poland. Government’s response to this consultation, alongside The informal format of the Gymnich allows EU a further consultation on the legislation to transfer Ministers to engage in a free and in-depth discussion on functions from British Waterways to the new charity, a number of issues. Ministers do not agree any formal both of which are available at: http://www.defra.gov. written conclusions, in contrast to arrangements in the uk/consult/. Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) or General Affairs Council (GAC). The next GAC will be held on 12 September. The Government response confirms our commitment The next FAC is on 10 October. to the creation of a new waterways charity in England and Wales, subject to parliamentary approval. It details The following issues were covered at the Gymnich: the main points raised by stakeholders during the Relations with Strategic Partners consultation exercise, and the Government’s proposals Ministers had a broad discussion covering the EU’s in the light of those comments. The response has been relationships with emerging powers. The discussion focused developed by working closely with the transition trustees largely, though not exclusively, on relations with India, of the new charity. Key points addressed in the response Brazil and south Africa. This continued a process set in include: train at last September’s European Council. This is an Local partnerships will be named “Waterways Partnerships” area where we welcome the external action service’s to reflect their strategic role and size; each partnership will efforts to define clearer collective EU priorities, common develop a “localism strategy”. objectives, and methods for using member states’ collective Fair representation of different groups on the council will weight to advance our security and prosperity objectives. be prioritised. “Private boaters”, “boating businesses” and Ministers agreed on the importance of the EU’s “NWC employees” will directly elect their representatives economic and trade relations with these strategic partners. from the outset. We will progress to 50% of the council They also discussed how to enhance our engagement on being directly elected overtime. political and security issues, complementing our national In addition to the Waterways Partnerships that cover the diplomatic efforts. And there was general agreement on waterways in England, and those that cover the waterways the need to use the EU’s collective voice better to straddling England and Wales, there will be a separate All-Wales Partnership, with representation from associated influence some of our strategic partners on areas such bodies with a Welsh remit. as human rights. We are publishing a revised and enhanced draft of the Middle East Peace Process charitable purposes. The discussion on the middle east peace process More detail is available on how Government will work with focused on EU handling of a possible Palestinian bid the charity to secure and safeguard public benefits, for recognition at the United Nations General Assembly. including free pedestrian access to the towpaths, through Ministers were joined for part of the session by the the charitable purposes. Trust obligations, legislation and Norwegian Foreign Minister in his capacity as chair of Government funding agreement. the Ad Hoc Liaison Committee. The Government believe that the move to civil There was continued broad support for the principles society will secure the long-term financial sustainability agreed at the FAC on 18 July: the need for a two-state of the waterways. We have already announced plans solution; for both sides to resume direct and substantive to transfer all of British Waterways’ property assets talks; and support to the High Representative in her to the charity, as an endowment, and to commit to a efforts through the Quartet to create a credible perspective long-term funding agreement. The length and terms of for the re-launching of the peace process. 35WS Written Ministerial Statements12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

Libya Both the business plan and the performance indicators The Gymnich discussion came a day after the Paris for 2011-12 will be available electronically on the MCA’s conference co-chaired by the Prime Minister and President website, and copies will be placed in the Libraries of Sarkozy. Baroness Ashton set out proposed priorities both Houses. for the EU’s post-conflict assistance. There was general agreement that any potential EU financial and post-conflict stabilisation assistance should respect the need for national transition council ownership and a UN-lead. WORK AND PENSIONS Syria The discussion on Syria took place in the presence of DWP Administration EU candidate countries (Iceland, Montenegro, former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), Croatia and Turkey) and focused on EU measures against the The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain regime. On 2 September, the EU agreed a collective ban Duncan Smith): Following the spending review and on imports of Syrian crude oil products. By doing so development of this coalition Government’s programme the EU made it clear that it will continue to increase the for welfare reform, the Department for Work and Pensions pressure on President Assad until he steps aside and has reviewed from first principles its organisational allows a transition to a different type of regime. The structure and governance to ensure it is best placed for horrific scenes of brutality throughout Ramadan were the future. unacceptable, and the ban on all EU imports of Syrian Subject to the Welfare Reform Bill achieving Royal crude oil products will help constrict the regime’s funding Assent, universal credit (UC) will, for example, require and reduce its ability to fund the repression of innocent DWP to deal not only with those out of work—where civilians. the existing Jobcentre Plus network and brand is strong Following the Gymnich, I issued a further statement and effective—but also to deal with those in employment, on the issue of oil sanctions. This can be found at: which will account for approximately half of the UC http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/ caseload in steady state. Starting from 2013, this approach ?view=News&id=650796182 requires a different organisational structure. Eastern and Southern Neighbourhood Furthermore, a consistent message that work will There was a short exchange on the EU’s relations always pay can also be reinforced by managing claims with its eastern European neighbours. On Ukraine, for disability living allowance (and, in due course, subject concern was expressed about the trial and subsequent to safe passage of legislation, the personal independence detention of Yuliya Tymoshenko and other opposition payment) for people of working age alongside those for leaders. On Belarus, Ministers stressed the need to universal credit. This reform will also mean that support maintain the EU’s firm position on releasing and for housing costs are incorporated with pension credit, rehabilitating all political prisoners. I underlined the once universal credit is established and local authorities importance of progress on implementing the revised no longer administer housing benefit. European neighbourhood policy. Baroness Ashton and These structural reforms illustrate the extent to which Stefan Fule (Commissioner for Enlargement) reiterated traditional boundaries, within and beyond the DWP, their commitment to deliver results. Finally, Ministers will change. The breadth of the reforms also puts a were briefed on preparations for the eastern partnership premium on the flexibility which comes from removing summit in Warsaw on 29-30 September. some of those boundaries, as we build a welfare system My right hon. Friend the Minister for Europe and I fit for the future. will continue to update Parliament on Foreign and At the same time, the Department will deliver a 40% General Affairs Councils as and when future meetings reduction in the cost of the corporate centre, including are held. the centres of Jobcentre Plus and the pension, disability and carer’s service. Reflecting all of this, the Department will: bring all of its day-to-day operations under the leadership of TRANSPORT a chief operating officer, within a smaller executive team led by the permanent secretary; make more transparent, and manage as a single entity, the Maritime and Coastguard Agency (Business Plan) portfolio of reform to which the Government are committed; and to facilitate this, remove the formal agency status of Jobcentre Plus and the pension, disability and carers service The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport from Monday 3 October. (Mike Penning): I am pleased to announce the publication By creating a single integrated, senior management today of the business plan 2011-15 for the Maritime structure, the Department has been able to reduce the and Coastguard Agency (MCA). number of senior civil service roles by almost a third The business plan sets out the services the agency will since May 2010. deliver over the course of this Parliament and the With the departmental board, now chaired by the resources they will have available. Alongside the four-year Secretary of State and with four non-executives all business plan, the agency is also publishing a set of appointed since May 2011 the removal of formal agency performance indicators for 2011-12 which describes a status also enables the removal of separate management framework of measures by which the MCA’s performance boards for each agency. The finances of each agency are will be assessed. already consolidated with the Department’s accounts, 37WS Written Ministerial Statements12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS but the changes will also avoid two sets of subsidiary Current arrangements for parliamentary questions, accounts, each separately prepared and audited. correspondence and enquiries from Members will continue I would like to put on record my appreciation for the unaltered as we deepen our commitment to transparency ongoing efforts of DWP’s front line staff. They continue and professional communications in DWP. to deliver important services in local communities and Taken together, this new structure will ensure DWP is will continue to do so with the introduction of universal well placed to deliver reform for a welfare system fit for credit under this new DWP organisational structure. the 21st century.

17P Petitions12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Petitions 18P

to the taxpayer; and further notes that the Petitioners Petition believe that there are better alternatives for growth instead. Monday 12 September 2011 The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to encourage Luton Borough Council to consider alternative sites for OBSERVATIONS development in and around Luton. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Kelvin Hopkins, Official Report, 30 March 2011; Vol. 526, COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT c. 486.] [P000911] Development (Luton) Observations from the Secretary of State for The Petition of residents of Luton, Communities and Local Government: Declares that the Petitioners strongly object to the The allocations referred to are contained in the Strategic Specific Site Allocation to the North of Luton and southern Central Bedfordshire Joint Core Luton, to the employment sites at Sundon and beside Strategy. The Secretary of State for Communities and the A6 and to the proposed Luton Northern Bypass; Local Government received a request on 1 August from notes that the Petitioners believe that the location for the Luton and South Bedfordshire Joint Committee for development is wrong because of the distance to Luton the withdrawal of the Core Strategy. In response to this Town Centre, the limitation to increase capacity on the request, the Secretary of State has written to the Joint existing roads like the A6 and B579, the impact on Committee on 7 September directing that the Core schools and other local facilities, its poor location in Strategy must be withdrawn. Following this direction, relation to public transport, the direct impact on Areas the petitioners may wish to discuss their concerns with of Outstanding Natural Beauty, the negative social and Luton Borough Council, who are responsible for economic impacts on the nearby residents and the costs preparing a plan for the area.

965W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 966W

(3) what recent discussions his Department has had Written Answers to with Ofgem on energy prices; and if he will make a statement. [71561] Questions Charles Hendry: DECC Ministers and officials meet with Ofgem and energy suppliers on a regular basis to Monday 12 September 2011 discuss market issues. Consumers deserve the best possible deal, which means effective competition in the marketplace. We are cutting red tape for smaller suppliers to boost competition in ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE retail markets, while Ofgem is tackling other barriers to effective competition (such as tariff complexity and low Electromagnetic Fields: Health Hazards wholesale market liquidity) in its retail market review. While greater competition should put pressure on prices, Tessa Munt: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy consumers should also regularly evaluate the best deal and Climate Change what research his Department has on the market. evaluated on the effects on human health of residence Gordon Henderson: To ask the Secretary of State for near high-voltage power lines. [71573] Energy and Climate Change what information his Department holds on the average unit cost of (a) Charles Hendry: The Department of Health is responsible natural gas and (b) electricity including all taxes, for the assessment of risks to human health and providing charged to electric arc steelmakers in (i) the UK, (ii) advice to Government Departments such as DECC. As Holland, (iii) France, (iv) Spain and (v) Germany in the such, DECC has not evaluated any research relating to latest period for which figures are available. [71667] human health of residence near high voltage power lines. The Department of Health is advised by the Charles Hendry: DECC holds no information on Health Protection Agency and both keep emerging energy costs to specific industries in the UK or Europe. science under review. However, DECC does collect energy price data for UK industry for different consumption sizebands and supplies Energy: Prices this to Eurostat, the European Union’s statistical agency. Eurostat publishes industrial gas and electricity price Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy data for all EU member states. Prices in the largest and Climate Change (1) what consideration he has sizebands could be used as a proxy for electric arc given to regulating energy prices; [71559] steelmakers. (2) what recent discussions his Department has had Prices detailed as follows include all taxes not refundable with energy companies on energy prices; [71560] on purchase.

Pence per kWh, July-December 2010 Natural gas: Large consumers consuming Electricity: Extra large consumers: consuming 420,000 27,778-277,777 MWh per annum MWh per annum with a maximum demand of 50 MW

UK 1.78 6.70 Netherlands 2.32 7.09 France 2.35 4.71 Spain 2.14 5.68 Germany 3.26 7.64 EU 15 median 2.35 6.31

Energy: Private Rented Housing amendments to the Energy Bill to make letting agents responsible for complying with the minimum standard Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy of energy efficiency for private rented homes. [71015] and Climate Change what recent representations he has received from (a) Macmillan Cancer Support, (b) Citizens Gregory Barker: Existing provisions under the Consumer Advice Bureau, (c) Crisis and (d) the Chartered Institute Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 will of Environmental Health on minimum standards of prevent letting agents from marketing private rented energy efficiency for private rented homes; what response homes which do not meet the minimum standard of he gave in each case; and if he will make a statement. energy efficiency. [R] [71170] Therefore, an amendment to the Energy Bill is not Gregory Barker: The Department received a necessary. representation from these organisations, among others, on 2 September, to which a written response will be Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for given shortly. Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward amendments to the Energy Bill to introduce a minimum Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for standard of energy efficiency for private rented homes Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward in 2016. [71016] 967W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 968W

Gregory Barker: We are committed to working with sector. The Green Deal will be supported by the energy the sector to encourage uptake of the Green Deal well company obligation (ECO). As well as driving carbon ahead of 2018. For this reason, I have been clear that I savings, the ECO will have a significant focus on providing see 2018 as the ’finishing line’ as opposed to the ’starting ‘Affordable Warmth’ to support the lowest income and line’ for this policy. However, if we do not see the sector most vulnerable, contributing to the Government’s efforts responding well ahead of this date we could reconsider to alleviate fuel poverty. We will be consulting shortly the timing and introduce regulations earlier. on eligibility for this element of the ECO, taking into account evidence on fuel poverty in different tenures, as Energy: Tenants part of our wider consultation. Furthermore, provisions in the Energy Bill will further Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for target the private rented sector by making it unlawful Energy and Climate Change if he will bring forward for landlords to rent out properties that do not reach a amendments to the Energy Bill to ensure that tenants minimum standard energy efficiency from 2018. In addition, are protected from retaliatory eviction if they make from 2016, all tenants should not be unreasonably requests of their landlords for energy efficiency refused consent from their landlords to make reasonable improvements. [71014] energy efficiency improvements. We continue to engage across Government on this issue. Gregory Barker: The Department has set up a working group involving a range of key stakeholders to explore Green Deal Scheme: Housing the issue of retaliatory evictions in relation to the private rented sector provisions in the Energy Bill. This group will report to Ministers in DECC and the Department Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy for Communities and Local Government in October and Climate Change if he will bring forward proposals 2011. to protect tenants from eviction for requesting (a) energy efficiency improvements and (b) to participate Feed-in Tariffs: Schools in the Green Deal; and if he will make a statement. [R] [71002] Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Gregory Barker: The Department has set up a working of the number of (a) schools and (b) hospitals that group involving a range of key stakeholders to explore have participated in the (i) feed-in tariff and (ii) the issue of retaliatory evictions in relation to the private renewable heat incentive since his appointment. [71178] rented sector provisions in the Energy Bill. This group will report to Ministers in DECC and the Department Gregory Barker: Ofgem provide information on the for Communities and Local Government in October 2011. number of installations registered for the Feed-in Tariffs (FITs) scheme which started in April 2010. While this Nuclear Reactors does not provide information in the form requested, it does show a total of 558 community installations accredited Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy for FITs, which could include installations on schools and Climate Change how much the Office for Nuclear and hospitals. Regulation has spent on the generic design assessment There have been no participants in the Renewable of prospective new nuclear reactor designs since the Heat Incentive (RHI) scheme as it is not yet open for inception of that process; and what proportion of the applications. Subject to state aid approval, the Government expenditure has been recovered from (a) the prospective intends that the RHI will open for applications from the reactor vendors and (b) the prospective applicant utilities. non-domestic sector on 30 September 2011. [71670] Fuel Poverty: Private Sector Charles Hendry: The Office for Nuclear Regulation and Environment Agency publish the regulatory costs Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy of the generic design assessment process in their regular and Climate Change what steps he has (a) taken and quarterly reports, available on the GDA website: (b) plans to take to alleviate fuel poverty in the private http://www.hse.gov.uk/newreactors/reports.htm rented sector; what recent discussions he has had with All of the regulatory costs incurred during the GDA (i) Ministers in HM Treasury and (ii) other ministerial process are recoverable from the GDA requesting parties colleagues on this issue; and if he will make a (RPs). How the RPs further divide those costs is a statement. [R] [71169] matter for them. The most recent report gives these for the period up Gregory Barker: Currently the Warm Front scheme to March 2011 as: in England provides support to private housing tenures, including the private rented sector. In addition, the £ million carbon emissions reduction target, which was extended to December 2012, sets new requirements on suppliers Office for Nuclear Regulation to increase the proportion of benefits (energy efficiency Westinghouse 20.72 measures like insulation) going to the most vulnerable EDF and AREVA 20.77 low income, family, pensioner and disabled households.

From late 2012, the Green Deal, the Government will Environment Agency help to improve the energy efficiency of all households, Westinghouse 2.08 including those in fuel poverty in the private rented 969W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 970W

On 1 April we combined DEFRA’s two key agencies £ million for protecting animal health and welfare into a single EDF and AREVA 2.04 body: the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency. This joined up approach will enhance our Vitol Group response to animal diseases and protecting the welfare of farmed animals. Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy We have implemented EU Council Directive 2007/43, and Climate Change what (a) contacts and (b) which lays down minimum standards to protect the meetings he has had with Vitol Group since May 2010. welfare of conventionally reared meat chickens. The [70521] implementing regulations set a maximum stocking density of 39 kg/m(2), set training requirements for all keepers Gregory Barker: A list of meetings between DECC and require post mortem conditions and mortality rates Ministers and external organisations is published quarterly to be assessed as an indicator of on-farm welfare. on the Department’s website. For the first time, we have introduced a Code of Wind Power: Yorkshire Practice for the Welfare of Gamebirds Reared for Sporting Purposes which came into force in January 2011. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy We are working with the UK industry to ensure that and Climate Change for how many on shore wind no hens will be in battery cages by January 2012. turbines planning permission has been (a) sought and We have issued proposals to ensure that farm inspections (b) granted in (i) England, (ii) North Yorkshire and (iii) in future will be better targeted on those farms more the City of York since 1996; and how many turbines likely to have welfare problems. have been constructed in that period. [71491] We have set up an expert group to advise on practical Charles Hendry: DECC’s Renewable Energy Planning ways of delivering our commitment to ban beak trimming Database (REPD)1 tracks the progress of renewable of laying hens in 2016. electricity projects from inception, through planning, The Farm Animal Welfare Committee continues to construction and operational phases and is updated on 2 provide independent advice to DEFRA on animal welfare. a monthly basis. The REPD data (August 2011) showing In addition to funding a wide range of scientific research the number of onshore wind turbines that have been on animal welfare subjects, we also continue to commission applied for, have been consented and that are operational ADAS to raise awareness of farmed animal welfare in England, North Yorkshire and York since 1996 are issues and provide guidance to farmers in order to set out in the following table: promote good stockmanship and high standards of animal welfare on-farm, in transport and at slaughter North York England Yorkshire District through their awareness workshops.

Number of turbines 2,621 80 10 We are currently considering the role CCTV can play applied for3 in helping ensure slaughterhouse operators discharge Number of turbines 1,496 49 5 their current and future supervision and monitoring approved4 obligations. Number of turbines 740 33 0 operational 1 http://restats.decc.gov.uk/cms/planning-database/ Animal Welfare: Convictions 2 Data include resubmitted applications but exclude many small- scale, micro-generation sites, typically of less than 50 kW installed capacity. 3 Data are comprised of planning applications that have been Mr Robinson: To ask the Secretary of State for approved, refused or are currently under consideration. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many 4 Data are comprised of consented projects that are operational, convictions for offences of cruelty to animals there were under construction or awaiting construction. in (a) Coventry, (b) the west midlands and (c) the UK in each year since 2000; and how many people were cautioned in each such year. [70370] ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Animal Welfare: Agriculture Mr Paice: The number of defendants found guilty at all courts, and the number of offenders cautioned for offences of cruelty to animals in west midlands police Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State force area, and England and Wales for the years 2000 to for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps 2010 (latest available) are listed in the following table. she has taken to improve the welfare of farmed animals since her appointment; and if she will make a statement. Information available centrally only allows an area [70655] breakdown based on police force areas, so separate statistics are not available for Coventry. Mr Paice: We have set up a new Animal Health and Information for Scotland and Northern Ireland are Welfare Board for England to have responsibility for matters for the Scottish Executive and Northern Ireland strategic animal health and welfare policy, and oversight Office respectively. of its delivery in relation to England. Groups within the new rural and farming network will be able to engage Court proceedings data for 2011 are planned for with Ministers on local animal health and welfare issues. publication in the spring, 2012. 971W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 972W

The number of defendants found guilty at all courts, and the number of offenders cautioned for offences of cruelty to animals1 in west midlands police force area and England and Wales, 2000-102,3 Outcome/region 20004 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 20095 2010

West midlands police force area Found guilty 41 56 37 47 48 49 60 105 65 63 57 Cautions issued6 ——— 1—— 2—— 1 1

England and Wales7 Found guilty 861 754 768 783 787 843 758 873 821 914 858 Cautions issued6 10 12 12 33 12 26 19 22 11 17 19 1 Includes the following statutes and corresponding offence descriptions: Cruelty to Animals—Protection of Animals Act 1911 Causing, permitting or falling to prevent unnecessary suffering-S5.4& 32(1) Animal Welfare Act 2006 2 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed fortwoor more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. 4 Staffordshire police force were only able to supply a sample of data for magistrates courts proceedings covering one full week in each quarter for 2000. Estimates based on this sample are included in the figures as they are considered sufficiently robust at this high level of analysis. 5 Post publication revisions have been made to 2009 figures to account for the late receipt of a small number of court records. 6 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When an offender has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time the principal offence is the more serious offence. From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came Into force nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These Figures have been included in the totals. 7 Includes west midlands police force area. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

Animal Welfare: Diseases Mr Paice: DEFRA does not hold annual statistics of such birds, but figures produced by the Farm Animal Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Welfare Council in 2008 estimated that there are 30 million Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will assess to 35 million pheasants and 5 million to 10 million the effect of foot diseases on levels of lameness in the partridges released each year in Great Britain for sport lamb and sheep population. [70412] shooting.

Mr Paice: Lameness in sheep is a significant welfare Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State concern. DEFRA has conducted a number of research for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will projects on sheep welfare and the causes and control of bring forward proposals to ban the farming of birds for foot rot. sport shooting; and if she will make a statement. [70656] In March this year, DEFRA’s expert committee on Mr Paice: The Government have no current plans to the welfare of farmed animals, the Farm Animal Welfare ban the farming of birds for sport shooting. Committee, published an Opinion on lameness in sheep: Gamebirds reared for sporting purposes continue to http://www.fawc.org.uk/pdf/sheep-lameness-opinion- be protected by the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which 110328.pdf makes it an offence to cause any unnecessary suffering which includes the most up to date recommendations to an animal as well as failing to provide for the welfare on the management of lameness in sheep, including needs of an animal under the control of man. In specific conditions such as foot rot. We intend to raise addition, DEFRA introduced a code of practice for the the control and prevention of lameness to farmers welfare of gamebirds reared for sporting purposes, which through ADAS awareness workshops later this year. was made under the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which The Welfare of sheep is protected by the Welfare of provides gamebird rearers with guidance on how to Farmed Animals (England) Regulations 2007 (as amended). meet the welfare needs of their birds. It is enforced by both the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency and local authorities. Animal Welfare: Slaughter Houses DEFRA’s Code of Recommendations for livestock: Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Sheep contains specific guidance regarding the management Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she of lameness, including the consideration to cull sheep has to improve animal welfare standards in abattoirs. promptly if they have chronic lameness which has failed [70167] to respond to appropriate treatment. Mr Paice: We are committed to the maintenance of Animal Welfare: Gun Sports high standards of welfare at slaughter and do not condone any form of cruelty. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State The Government are currently working through for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what information implementation of regulation 1099/2009, which comes her Department holds on the number of (a) pheasants into effect on 1 January 2013. This will include a review and (b) partridges which have been produced for sport of the procedures food business operators will need to shooting in each of the last five years; and if she will have in place, including the use of CCTV, to meet the make a statement. [70653] new monitoring requirements introduced by the regulation. 973W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 974W

The regulation also introduces new requirements in Animals: Electric Shock Equipment relation to operator competence and the need for all slaughterhouses (above a minimum size) to have a dedicated Natascha Engel: To ask the Secretary of State for animal welfare officer and we are working with the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what representations Sector Skills Council for the sector to develop accredited she has received on the use of (a) containment fences training packages and associated assessment procedures and (b) other electronic training aids for animals. aimed at slaughterhouse staff. We are also considering [70108] what, if any, retraining existing slaughterhouse staff will be required to undertake before being given a Mr Paice: DEFRA has received a variety of certificate of competence under the new regulation. We correspondence from a range of interested parties on have recently commenced a period of informal discussion the broad issue of electronic training aids, and in some with key stakeholder interests in advance of a formal cases these refer to containment fences. consultation on the legislative changes that will take place in early 2012. Bovine Tuberculosis New penalties, sanctions and enforcement arrangements will also be required to underpin the new regulatory framework. Here we are considering extending the current Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for criminal sanctions to include the use of improvement Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she has and stop notices to ensure immediate action is taken had any discussions with her EU counterparts on the where welfare breaches are detected. We will also be implementation of the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication reviewing the way we assess welfare risks to ensure Programme for England. [70228] enforcement and official veterinarian resources are targeted at those businesses or production systems judged to be Mr Paice: The Secretary of State for Environment, the highest risk of welfare non compliance. Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has not had the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State opportunity to discuss the Bovine TB Eradication for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will Programme for England with EU Commissioners or bring forward proposals to increase the number of her counterparts in other member states since its publication prosecutions in cases of causing unnecessary suffering on 19 July. She met with Commissioner Dalli on 14 March and injury to animals at slaughterhouses; and if she to discuss bovine TB more generally and in particular will make a statement. [70654] the development and use of a cattle vaccine.

Mr Paice: Official veterinarians (OVs) of the Food Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Standards Agency (FSA) monitor and enforce the rules Food and Rural Affairs which body will be responsible set out in the regulations on a daily basis in all licensed for supervising, regulating and monitoring the licensing slaughterhouses (approved premises). The Government scheme for the badger culling scheme; what financial will not hesitate to take action against anyone failing to resources she plans to provide to such an oversight comply with the law and OVs will take immediate body; under what guidelines it will operate; and whether action to put right any problems they may find. This there will be a charge for licences. [70640] may include verbal or written advice or warnings and, when necessary, a referral for prosecution. If OVs see Mr Paice: Natural England will assess applications, animals arriving at a slaughterhouse which show evidence grant and monitor compliance with licences in line with of welfare problems arising on farm or during transport, the same principles as it applies to enforcing other they will report the incident to the appropriate enforcement wildlife licences. We are working with Natural England body, which will take the necessary follow-up action. to determine the scope and scale of this operation and On 1 September 2011, as announced in Parliament its associated costs, which would be met by DEFRA. on 12 July 2011, Official Report, column 11WS, the We are currently consulting on draft guidance to Natural prosecution function and prosecution team in DEFRA England, which sets out in detail how Natural England transferred to the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS). would exercise its function to issue licences. Following this change, the decision on whether to prosecute In addition to Natural England monitoring compliance cases under the Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) with licence conditions, DEFRA will also commission Regulations 1995 investigated by the FSA, will be taken additional impartial monitoring as described in the by the CPS and any prosecution will be conducted the consultation document. CPS. At this stage, we do not envisage charging applicants The Government encourage the highest standards of for badger control licences. animal welfare at slaughter. The Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations 1995, as amended, Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, governs animal welfare at slaughter. The regulations are Food and Rural Affairs whether the licensing scheme designed specifically to prevent cruelty or poor practice for badger culling will require participants to have in slaughterhouses or other places such as farms, where similar team sizes and training as the teams of staff animals are slaughtered or may have to be killed. They used in culling areas during the Random Badger Culling also set down specific requirements which must be Trial. [70642] complied with at all stages of the slaughter or killing process. The regulations make it an offence to cause any Mr Paice: Applicants would be required to meet the animal avoidable excitement, pain or suffering at any criteria set out in the draft Guidance to Natural England time between its arrival at a slaughterhouse and when it on which we are currently consulting. As part of this, is killed. applicants would be required to satisfy Natural England 975W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 976W that they are able to deliver an effective cull in line with a competitive, sustainable EU agriculture sector able to the proposed policy and have arrangements in place to rise to future challenges and opportunities, including achieve this. This may not be the same as the manpower feeding a global population and responding to climate deployed in the Randomised Badger Culling Trial as change. during the RBCT only cage-trapping and shooting was used, and culling was carried out over smaller areas of Dogs: Tagging 100 km2. As described in the consultation document, operators Mr Slaughter: To ask the Secretary of State for would be required to undertake badger-specific training Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent to cover anatomical and behavioural characteristics of representation she has received from local authorities badgers and how these differ from those of other species, on compulsory microchipping of dogs. [69693] and demonstrate appropriate marksmanship competence. Mr Paice: 16 local authorities responded to the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State consultation last year on dangerous dogs legislation, all for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent of which commented on compulsory microchipping of representations her Department has received expressing dogs. opposition to a cull of badgers; and if she will make a statement. [70652] Fines

Mr Paice: A public consultation on a badger control Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for policy was carried out at the end of 2010, the results of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what (a) fines which are available at: and (b) other penalties her Department has received http://archive.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/tb-control- from the European Commission as a result of having measures/bovinetb-summary-responses-110719.pdf breached an EU directive in the last five years. [70054] We also receive correspondence from organisations Richard Benyon: DEFRA (or any other UK Government and members of the public both expressing their opposition Department) has never received a fine or any other to and support for badger culling. penalty as a result of having breached an EU directive. However, as a result primarily of late payments and Common Agricultural Policy perceived weaknesses in controls related to the administration by the Rural Payment Agency and other Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for UK paying agencies of common agriculture policy schemes Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much funding in the UK, a total of around £388 million has been the UK will contribute to the Common Agricultural disallowed (ie EU funding of scheme payments has Policy in 2011-12. [70230] been withheld) over the last five years from 1 September 2006. Mr Paice: The UK contributes to the EU Budget as a whole and not to individual spending programmes within Fisheries it and there is not, therefore, a specific UK contribution to Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) expenditure. Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for The UK’s share of financing the 2011 EU Budget is Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent meetings currently estimated to be 12.48%, after taking account (a) she and (b) her officials have had with their EU of the UK abatement. Spending, in Heading 2 (mostly counterparts on reform of the common fisheries policy. CAP) of the EU Budget in 2011 is currently estimated [70226] at ¤56.379 billion. Agreement has not yet been reached on the 2012 EU Budget. Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister I regularly meet my EU counterparts to discuss common fisheries Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for policy (CFP) reform. The most recent meeting was the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent EU Fisheries Council on 19 July 2011. discussions she has had with her EU counterparts on My officials also meet their counterparts in other reform of the common agricultural policy. [70231] member states regularly to discuss reform of the CFP. Recent meetings include meetings of EU Directors-General Mr Paice: The Secretary of State for Environment, for Fisheries as well as bi-laterals with individual EU Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the member states. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), and I are in Now that the EU Commission’s proposals for reform regular discussion with EU colleagues over the reform of the CFP have been published the UK Government of the CAP, both in the margins of formal and informal will continue to engage with our EU colleagues and meetings of the EU Agriculture Council and in targeted others in pressing for genuinely radical reform. bilaterals. I recently met with Swedish and Danish counterparts, and will shortly be welcoming the Polish Forests Agriculture Minister to London. We are committed to working constructively with all Andrew Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for EU partners to progress genuine and farsighted reform Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent of the CAP. In a smaller overall budget, future CAP progress has been made by the working party on the expenditure should tackle the key objectives of encouraging future of public-owned forests. [70227] 977W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 978W

Mr Paice: We understand that the Independent Panel Mr Paice [holding answer 7 September 2011]: On on Forestry continues to make good progress. Its public tapeworm controls (Echinococus Multilocularis), following call for views closed on 31 July, to which it had more representations made by the UK, the European than 40,000 submitted. Panel members have also begun Commission has come forward with a proposal that their programme of visits, enabling them to build up a would enable us to retain tapeworm controls (applying thorough picture of the vast array of interests and uses the treatment one to five days before travel). We have of England’s forests and woodlands to inform its work. decided that the evidence doesn’t justify taxpayer funded We look forward to reading the panel’s progress report, maintenance of tick controls (although pet owners could which is due in November, and its findings and advice choose to do so if they wish as part of wider animal when it finally reports next year. Latest news about the welfare considerations) and we are working with veterinary work of the panel is available on its website. and welfare organisations to ensure that those travelling with their pets are provided with the necessary advice. Government Procurement Card Other non-endemic parasites posing a serious threat to public health (e.g. Leishmaniasis) are transmitted by John Glen: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, insect vectors such as some species of sandfly which are Food and Rural Affairs what the (a) transaction date, not established in the UK. As such, there is negligible (b) transaction amount and (c) supplier was of each risk of the disease becoming established in the UK and transaction undertaken by the Rural Payments Agency there is no evidence to suggest we should introduce using the Government Procurement Card in (i) 2008-09 controls now. and (ii) 2009-10; and which of these transactions attracted level three or enhanced transaction entry. [70834] Poultry: Animal Welfare Mr Paice: The Rural Payments Agency is unable to provide the information prior to March 2010. The information requested could be obtained only at Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, disproportionate cost. None of the transactions attracted Food and Rural Affairs what discussions her Department level three or enhanced transaction entry. has had with the European Commission’s Food and Veterinary Office on ensuring that liquid egg is produced from enriched battery cages in the EU from 2012. Livestock: Transport [70215] Mrs Moon: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: No direct discussions have been held with Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the the Commission’s Food and Veterinary Office (FVO) as answer of 18 July 2011, Official Report, column 721W, it deals with checking compliance with legislation that on transport: livestock, on how many occasions the has already been implemented. We continue to press the vessel identified in the answer has used the port of EU Commission to act and act quickly to bring in Ramsgate to transport live farm animals during the last additional enforcement measures to protect UK complaint seven months; and if she will make a statement. [70417] producers. Simply relying on FVO Missions and infraction proceedings against non-compliant member states will Mr Paice: In the last seven months, there have been not be enough to deal with the commercially negative 13 sailings of the vessel identified transporting live farm impact that any non-compliance would cause. animals from Ramsgate port.

Meat Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what steps the Egg Marketing Inspectorate plans to take to trace and report on the Robert Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for origin of imported eggs from enriched battery cages Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions within the EU that do not comply with the provisions of she has had with the Secretary of State for Health on EU directive 1999/74/EC from 2012; [70218] the effect on human health of consumption of meat from animals raised by healthier methods. [70975] (2) what discussions her Department has had with the Egg Marketing Inspectorate on the resources Mr Paice: The Secretary of State for Environment, available to it for the purposes of monitoring the Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the incidence of non-compliant eggs from enriched battery Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman), has not had any cages in the EU from 2012; [70219] recent discussions with my the Secretary of State for (3) what role the Egg Marketing Inspectorate will Health, my right hon. Friend the Member for South play in ensuring adherence to changes in cages for Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley), on this issue. laying hens from 1 January 2012. [70246]

Pet Travel Scheme: Disease Control Mr Paice: The EMI has been absorbed into the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for (AHVLA), which is now responsible for enforcement Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she and checking compliance with EU (welfare and egg has to prevent (a) echinococus multilocularis and (b) marketing) legislation. AHVLA is carrying out inspections other non-endemic parasites which pose a threat to of all laying hen premises in the UK to determine public health from entering the UK when the revised producer’s plans for 2012 and the level of conversion to Pet Travel Scheme comes into force on 1 January 2012. date. We are working with officials in the AHVLA in [70306] developing a UK enforcement strategy. 979W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 980W

AHVLA, through its egg marketing inspectors enforce, incident of disease on a holding. It is not unusual for and check compliance with EU egg marketing legislation, several poultry carcasses to be submitted, while for in England and Wales. Eggs from other member states cattle, single carcasses are typical. are subject of free trade agreements and therefore cannot For the period from 1 September 2010 to 31 August be specifically targeted but checks are made on imported 2011, 141 carcasses were submitted to the Newcastle eggs as part of AHVLAs normal compliance inspection Regional Veterinary Laboratory. This is an average regime. AHLVA is responsible for checking imports of weekly throughput of approximately three carcasses. In shell eggs from third countries. This is done at the point the same period, 963 carcasses were submitted to the of entry. Thirsk Regional Veterinary Laboratory. This is an average weekly throughput of approximately 18 carcasses. Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, For the period from 1 August 2010 to 31 July 2011, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions her Department 176,913 tests were conducted by the Newcastle Regional has had with representatives of Trading Standards on Veterinary Laboratory, an average of 3,402 per week. steps to ensure that egg in liquid form is scrutinised by For the same period, 18,359 tests were conducted by the Trading Standards officers following the phasing out of Thirsk Regional Veterinary Laboratory, an average of the keeping of laying hens in conventional cages. [70245] 353 per week. Mr Paice: Representatives of Trading Standards are Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for assisting us with drawing up a UK enforcement strategy Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) to cover UK egg production and imports from other vets, (b) general laboratory staff and (c) trained member states. We will also be discussing our strategy bacteriology staff currently work at (i) the Thirsk Regional with the industry and retailers. Veterinary Laboratory and (ii) the Newcastle Regional Regional Veterinary Laboratory Veterinary Laboratory. [70890]

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: There is currently one vet based in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans she Newcastle Regional Veterinary Laboratory. There are has for the future of the Regional Veterinary currently six vets based in the Thirsk Regional Veterinary Laboratory at Thirsk. [70888] Laboratory. There were 24 lab staff in post on 1 September 2011 Mr Paice: The Animal Health and Veterinary at Newcastle, of whom 22 are full-time and two are Laboratories Agency (AHVLA) has carried out a review part-time. Of these, seven are trained bacteriology staff. of its laboratory services work, how it is organised and There were 14 lab staff in post on 1 September 2011 where it is located. The review looked at how we can at Thirsk, of whom eight are full-time (one of whom is achieve the best value for money, while maintaining on fixed term appointment which ends on 6 December high standards of quality and safety in service provision. 2011) and six are part-time. Of these, eight are trained In coming up with its recommendations, the review bacteriology staff. considered the scientific, technical and logistical aspects of reorganising lab services. Waste Disposal AHVLA are in the process of obtaining approval for them from DEFRA. AHVLA intend to retain laboratory Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for services workgroups at eight sites compared to 14 at Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether her decision present. The proposal recommended that laboratory to allow local authorities to undertake commercial waste service work at Thirsk will cease by the end of March collections free of VAT includes subcontractual work in 2012. Work from Thirsk would be transferred to the which private waste disposal companies work on behalf eight continuing workgroups. of local authorities. [71065] These changes do not imply or rely on site closures to generate savings. Just because a site will no longer carry Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. out lab testing, it does not mean that it is at risk of The issue is not one of competition law, but instead closure. AHVLA is planning a complete review of estates one of VAT law. As such, this was an operational matter post merger and will identify which sites are the best and the decision was made by HMRC officials in response ones for them to use for service delivery in the future. to a legal challenge against the taxation of local authority AHVLA will make an announcement on this at the end commercial waste collection services. Because of this, it of October. was not possible to consult more widely. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for The Environmental Services Association have made Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many (a) representations to HMRC and there is ongoing dialogue laboratory tests and (b) post mortems are carried out about the VAT treatment of commercial waste collection. (i) per week and (ii) annually in (A) the Thirsk Regional Veterinary Laboratory and (B) the Newcastle Regional Water White Paper Veterinary Laboratory. [70889] George Hollingbery: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Paice: Post-mortem examinations at the Animal Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on what date the Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency’s (AHVLA) Water White Paper will be published. [70992] regional veterinary laboratories are usually conducted at the request of a private veterinary surgeon. He or she Richard Benyon: The Water White Paper will be published may choose to submit one or more carcass from an by December 2011. 981W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 982W

HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Commission paid to each contractor contracted to provide services to the House in (a) 2001-02, (b) 2005-06 and Chapel of St Mary Undercroft (c) 2010-11. [69745]

Mr Amess: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, John Thurso: The House’s financial systems are designed Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of primarily to record the cost of particular services, activities Commons Commission, which postholder authorises and projects, rather than how these are delivered, and access to the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft in the separately identifying payments to each of the House’s Palace of Westminster; and what the criteria are for many contractors for three financial years would involve access to the Chapel for hon. Members accompanied disproportionate cost. We are introducing improvements by guests. [71029] to the system next year which will enable us to prepare more detailed reports in future and analyse costs in John Thurso: The postholder who authorises access different ways, and we are planning to publish information to the Chapel of St Mary Undercroft is Black Rod in on payments to suppliers over £25,000 later this year. the House of Lords on behalf of the Lord Great Chamberlain, in conjunction with the Dean of Westminster. Hugh Bayley: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, The criteria for access to the Chapel are as follows: Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of As the Chapel is primarily a place of worship, services, Commons Commission pursuant to the answer of 7 June rehearsals and other authorised events should not be 2011, Official Report, column 2W, on pay, how many disrupted by visitors. Similarly individuals who use the full-time equivalent information and communications chapel for private prayer and contemplation should not technology staff were employed by the House of Commons be unduly disturbed by tours. service immediately prior to the creation of the Parliamentary Information and Communications The number of visitors in a group should be consistent Technology department (PICT); how many are now with the number of visitors (up to a maximum of six) employed by PICT; and how many of these were paid who a Member, or full grey, red or green staff pass-holder, more in salaries, overtime and performance awards of either House may conduct on a private tour within than a backbench hon. Member in the latest year for the Palace of Westminster. which figures are available. [69746] The size and number of visiting groups should be regulated in accordance with safety considerations to John Thurso: Prior to the creation of Parliamentary take account of the narrow access, layout of the chapel ICT (PICT) as a department of the House of Commons and lack of emergency exits (when the Chapel is not Service in January 2006 (in preparation for formal being used for an event). constitution as a joint department), parliamentary ICT services, and related management and administrative Electric Vehicles functions, were provided in a variety of ways across the departments and offices of both Houses, including by Mr Spellar: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, staff employed by the House of Commons to provide Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of services to both Houses (for instance, the Parliamentary Commons Commission, what recent progress the House Communications Directorate and the Information of Commons Commission has made in installing charging Architecture Strategy Unit) and a number of programmes. points for electric or hybrid cars. [71046] In January 2006, the shadow PICT department inherited John Thurso: The situation remains as it was in the responsibility for 161 permanent staff (including some answer to the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar), part-timers and staff seconded from the House of Lords), of 2 February 2011, Official Report, column 783W, and 48 vacant posts, making a total requirement of 209. when the Commission confirmed the installation of two Vacancies were initially filled by contractors. charging points. The House authorities will continue to As set out on PICT’s 2010-11 annual report, 221 staff keep this under review. were employed by the department in core roles. In addition, there were 104 staff employed specifically on Parliament: Police Parliament’s portfolio of business-led programmes and projects. In both instances these numbers include staff Mr Amess: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, in a range of management, administrative and other Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of roles as well as those with technical qualifications and Commons Commission, which postholder is responsible responsibilities. The majority of programme appointments for setting criteria for the selection of police officers on are on a fixed term basis. duty in the Palace of Westminster. [71028] The salary of an hon. Member in 2010-11 was £65,738. Six PICT staff were paid more than this figure in John Thurso: Police officers are employees of the 2010-11. Metropolitan Police Service; the chief superintendent is The House of Commons shares the core funding of responsible for setting the criteria for the selection of PICT with the House of Lords on an 80/20 basis. police officers on duty in the Palace of Westminster. Pay Roads

Hugh Bayley: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Mr Amess: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Commons Commission how much the House of Commons Commons Commission which postholder was responsible 983W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 984W for the authorisation of works in Bridge street, Westminster; end. Costs are expected to be met from within existing what the timetable is for completion; and what the departmental resources. The House will be informed of expected cost to the public purse is of the works. [71026] the conclusions from the National Security Adviser’s study. John Thurso: The works in Bridge street are part of a project to provide improved security around the Northern Estate. It is being implemented by Westminster city EDUCATION council with funding by both Houses of Parliament. Advisory Centre for Education: Finance The project was endorsed by the Joint Committee on Security, and follows similar work elsewhere in Whitehall. Business case approval was given by officials in accordance Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for with established procedures. The cost for the whole Education how much his Department has provided to project was capped at £5.7 million, and the current the Advisory Centre for Education in each of the last forecast is within this limit. Works in Bridge street are three years; and what plans he has to fund the centre in due to be completed by the end of this year; however, (a) 2011-12 and (b) future years. [69186] the contractor is examining ways to finish sooner than Sarah Teather: From 1 April 2008 to 31 March 2011, this. the Advisory Centre for Education (ACE) received the Decisions on the authorisations of works are made following funding from the Department: under delegations given by the House of Commons Commission, and in line with criteria set by Member £ committees where appropriate. It is not the Commission’s practice to publish names of individual staff who took 2008-09 861,142.83 particular decisions. 2009-10 610,144.80 2010-11 502,094.00 In 2011-12, the Department has extended the grant to ACE and allocated £219,843 over April to September PRIME MINISTER 2011. ACE took part in a competitive procurement exercise Libya to award new contracts for online and telephone family support services. Unfortunately, ACE’s bid was not as Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Prime Minister pursuant strong as others and the Department was not able to to his oral statement of 5 September 2011, Official award a contract to them. Nearly 40 organisations Report, columns 23-26, on Libya (1) how long he expects submitted expressions of interest for contracts to operate the lessons learned exercise in respect of the Libyan family support services and these were predominantly intervention led by Sir Peter Ricketts to take; and when from charities. We are not able to fund all the organisations he expects it to report; [71055] that submitted bids. (2) what the scope is expected to be of the lessons The Advisory Centre for Education will be able to learned exercise in respect of the Libyan intervention apply for any future grants and contracts opportunities led by Sir Peter Ricketts; and whether it will include an that are advertised by the Department if it feels it meets analysis of the adequacy of military equipment; the relevant criteria. [71058] Children in Care (3) when he expects the lessons learned exercise in respect of the Libyan intervention led by Sir Peter Toby Perkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Ricketts to begin; and how much he expects the exercise how many care placements have been terminated by to cost. [71061] local authorities for those aged 16 in each of the last five years; and what the duration of their final placement The Prime Minister: As announced in the House on 5 was up to the date of its termination in each such case. September 2011, Official Report, columns 28-29, the [68227] National Security Adviser is leading a study into the lessons learnt about how the new central co-ordination Tim Loughton: Information on the number of children mechanisms around the National Security Council have aged 16 years who ceased to be looked after during the operated during the Libya crisis. The length of time it years ending 31 March 2006 to 2010 and the duration of takes will obviously depend on when the military operations their final placement is shown in the following table.

Children aged 16 years who ceased to be looked after during the years ending 31 March by duration of final placement1, 2, 3, years ending 31 March 2006-10, coverage: England Number 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

All children who ceased to be looked after aged 16 2,290 2,160 2,080 1,920 1,900

Duration of final placement Under 2 weeks 330 320 300 340 310 From 2 weeks to under 8 weeks 380 380 390 330 390 From 8 weeks to under 6 months 620 550 550 510 490 From 6 months to under 1 year 410 400 350 330 330 985W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 986W

Children aged 16 years who ceased to be looked after during the years ending 31 March by duration of final placement1, 2, 3, years ending 31 March 2006-10, coverage: England Number 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010

From 1 year to under 2 years 340 320 300 240 230 From 2 years to under 3 years 110 90 90 80 80 From 3 years to under 5 years 60 60 60 50 30 From 5 years to under 10 years 40 40 40 30 30 10 years and over 10 4—101010 1 Numbers have been rounded to the nearest 10. 2 Only the last occasion on which a child ceased to be looked after in the year has been counted. 3 Figures exclude children looked after under an agreed series of short-term placements. 4 Figures not shown in order to protect confidentiality. Source: SSDA 903

Children: Autism Children: Daycare

Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Education (1) what training school staff receive on Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State identifying signs of autism; and what requirements for Education (1) what assessment he has made of the there are on such staff to work with local NHS services effects of reductions in funding allocated by central to refer children for assessment and diagnosis; [69642] Government on the provision of summer holiday child (2) whether the scholarship scheme for teachers and care activities in Coventry; [70807] support staff will include scholarships on autism; and (2) what steps he plans to take to ensure that local whether he plans to establish incentives for teachers and authorities fulfil their obligations under the Childcare teaching assistants to undertake scholarships. [69713] Act 2006 in respect of holiday child care; and if he will make a statement; [70808] Sarah Teather: Decisions about in-service training for school staff are matters for schools, taken in light of the (3) whether he has made an assessment of the adequacy training needs of the schools. The Department has of provision of child care places for (a) disabled children previously provided in-service training materials on autism and (b) children over 12 years of age in each local and is currently funding the Autism Education Trust to authority area; and if he will make a statement. [70666] develop a competency framework for staff working with children with autism and to provide training for some 5,000 staff. Sarah Teather [holding answer 8 September 2011]: The Training and Development Agency for Schools Local authorities have a duty (under section 6 of the (TDA) has provided units on autism within a comprehensive Childcare Act 2006) to ensure that there is sufficient training pack for the providers of initial teacher training child care locally to meet the needs of working parents and induction. These are freely available. The TDA is and particularly families with disabled children. We currently developing materials for advanced-level continuous want to improve the way in which local authorities keep professional development, including materials on autism. parents informed about what they are doing to deliver The special educational needs (SEN) and disability this duty. The Government announced in the “Families Green Paper made a commitment to help local networks in the Foundation Years” statement, published in July of schools to develop teachers with specialist skills and 2011, the intention to bring forward proposals that knowledge, including specialist autism skills, who can local authorities should report annually on their section be deployed across local clusters of schools. 6 sufficiency duty, and in particular how they are supporting The SEN Code of Practice, which schools must take families of children with disabilities to access child care, into account when they are providing for children with available at: SEN, advises schools, with the informed consent of and http://www.education.gov.uk/childrenandyoungpeople/ involvement of the child’s parents, to consult the school earlylearningandchildcare/early health service or the child’s general practitioner about whether a medical condition may be contributing to the Local authorities have told us that the requirement child’s difficulties in school. (under section 11 of the Childcare Act 2006) to publish nationally prescribed sufficiency assessments every three The National Scholarship Fund for Teachers is seeking years is burdensome. The Government consider that a applications from serving teachers by 30 September. We local annual report would be a more effective way of anticipate that around half of the estimated 600 enabling parents to hold their local authority to account. Scholarships in the first round will be awarded for The Government have therefore also decided to consult qualifications in special educational needs, which could on bringing forward legislation to repeal the section 11 include studies in autism. In the Green Paper we announce duty.This consultation will be published on the Department that we would be launching an additional fund, open to for Education’s website later in the autumn. the most able teaching assistants and other support staff, to enable them to build on their special educational Although there is no specific funding allocated to needs support roles and develop their careers further. local authorities for the provision of holiday child care, We will be working with the Training and Development there is enough flexibility in the early intervention grant Agency for Schools on the development of such for local authorities to fund these requirements, if they scholarships. consider there is sufficient demand. 987W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 988W

Children’s Centres Table 1: Children’s Centres and SSLP allocations for London borough of Tower Hamlets £ Mrs Hodgson: To ask the Secretary of State for Children’s Children’s Education how many and what proportion of Sure centres centres SSLP Start children’s centres provided full-time childcare places revenue capital revenue Total in April (a) 2008, (b) 2009, (c) 2010 and (d) 2011. [70251] 2010-11 8,833,202 458,852 3,343,488 12,635,542 1 Local authorities received a two year allocation for 2004-06. 2 Sarah Teather: The Department for Education collects The 2006-07 and 2007-08 capital allocations are for the wider Main Capital Block. The Block included funding for child care sustainability data on how many Sure Start Children’s Centres provide and extended schools as well as for Children’s Centres in 2006-07 and full day care provision on site through the annual Childcare 2007-08. From 2008-09 the block comprised funding for Children’s and Early Years Provider survey. The survey does not Centres, early years provision, child care and integrated projects assess how many children’s centres provide full day care (those which support more than one policy objective). at a separate site in partnership with a nearby childcare Table 2: Early Intervention Grant for London borough of Tower provider. Data from the 2008 and 2009 surveys show: Hamlets £ Number of Sure Proportion of Early Intervention Start Children’s children’s centres Grant Total Centres providing providing full day care full day care provision on site2 2011-12 20,870,367 20,870,367 provision on site1 (percentage) Drugs: Misuse 2008 1,000 35 2009 1,000 35 Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 These figures are rounded to the nearest 100. The data are estimates; Education what recent assessment he has made of the they are weighted and grossed up to the total number of active providers in England to ensure the figures are representative of compliance of drug addiction treatment for young providers throughout England. These grossed up figures are not exact people in secure estate and care homes with NHS and are subject to margins of error. guidelines. [69644] 2 Percentages are rounded up to nearest whole number. The number of children’s centres between the 2008 and 2009 surveys remained Sarah Teather: The national specification for substance unchanged at around 2,900 centres. Therefore, the proportion of children’s centres offering full day care remained stable. misuse available via The 2010 Childcare and Early Years Provider survey http://yjbpublications.justice.gov.uk/Scripts/prodView.asp? will be published on 28 September 2011. idproduct=443&eP sets out the guidelines for young people in the secure Children’s Centres: Tower Hamlets estate. Compliance with the national specification was monitored by the Youth Justice Board up until March 2011 as part of their broader performance management Rushanara Ali: To ask the Secretary of State for arrangements. Responsibility for substance misuse services Education what funding he allocated to Sure Start within the secure estate has now transferred to the children’s centres in the London borough of Tower Department for Health. Hamlets in each year since 2005-06. [68680] Looked after children placed in children’s homes Sarah Teather: The funding allocated to the London should have access to the full range of support for drug borough of Tower Hamlets, as part of the Sure Start, and alcohol misuse provided by the local young people’s Early Yearsand Childcare Grant, for Sure Start Children’s substance misuse services. Centres from 2005-06 to 2010-11 is shown in Table 1. Young people’s specialist substance misuse services From April 2011, funding for Sure Start Children’s are monitored through the National Drug Treatment Centres is included within the Early Intervention Grant Monitoring System (NDTMS). In 2009-10, 4% of young (EIG) and is set out in Table 2. people accessing specialist drug and alcohol services The EIG is an un-ring-fenced and un-hypothecated were identified as looked after children. Information on funding stream that gives local authorities greater flexibility performance, including speed of access to services, and to target resources strategically and to intervene early to successful completions is published annually by the NTA. improve outcomes for children, young people and families. Health Services It is up to local authorities to judge how best to use this funding for their local communities, taking account of local need and evidence of what is most effective. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether the same weight and accountability Table 1: Children’s Centres and SSLP allocations for London borough criteria are to apply to the (a) health and social care of Tower Hamlets and (b) education elements of the proposed educational, £ health and care plan. [69569] Children’s Children’s centres centres SSLP revenue capital revenue Total Sarah Teather: The reforms I have proposed to the special educational needs system in England include the 2004-061 1,443,554 4,516,134 10,546,287 16,505,975 proposal to introduce a new single Education, Health 2006-072 3,145,772 1,639,667 5,165,883 9,951,322 and Care plan. The plan will be clear about who is 2007-082 3,173,775 3,254,853 4,391,349 10,819,977 responsible for which services, and will include a 2008-09 6,094,142 352,515 4,411,051 10,857,708 commitment from all parties across education, health 2009-10 7,886,930 723,330 3,745,484 12,355,744 and social care to provide their services. 989W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 990W

The reforms will be tested by pathfinder areas. Local Bus Services authorities, in close partnership with their local PCT clusters, have been invited to apply for pathfinder status. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Pathfinders have been asked to test ways to ensure Transport what estimate he has made of the (a) accountability across education, health and social care. number of passengers and (b) percentage change in bus usage in (i) York and (ii) England in the last five Pre-school Education years. [71503]

Mel Stride: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Baker: The latest information on bus statistics Education what steps his Department is taking to in Great Britain can be found on the Department increase the power of local authorities to provide website at the following address: tailored and flexible pre-school services to reflect local http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/series/buses/ needs. [69411] The charts found at the following addresses indicate Sarah Teather: Through the Early Intervention Grant number of passenger journeys in England and in York (EIG), local authorities have the freedom and flexibility over the least five years: to target resources strategically and to intervene early to http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/tables/bus0108 improve outcomes for children, young people and families. http://www.dft.gov.uk/statistics/tables/bus0109 The EIG enables the provision of pre-school services, These indicate that the number of bus passenger such as children’s centres, to be tailored to best meet the journeys increased by 2% in York and by 13% in England needs of local communities, taking account of evidence (including London) between 2005-06 and 2009-10, the of what is most effective. The free entitlement for three latest year for which we have annual statistics. and four-year-olds gives parents the offer of 15 hours of free early education for their child, which can be used Bus Services: Theft flexibly. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Special Educational Needs Transport if he will take steps to work with coach operators to reduce the level of theft on coaches. Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for [70663] Education what plans he has to ensure all pupils with special educational needs who require specialist Norman Baker [holding answer 8 September 2011]: support have access to such support; and what plans he Incidents of theft on coaches are a matter for the coach has for the funding of such support. [69841] company and an operational matter for the relevant police force concerned. Any compensation arrangements Sarah Teather: Schools and local authorities have in place for loss or damage to luggage during a journey duties to identify children with special educational needs are a matter for the coach operator. (SEN) and arrange the provision a child’s learning difficulties call for, including specialist provision where Departmental Private Finance Initiative that is necessary to meet needs. In February, the Department wrote to all local authorities Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for in England saying that there would be no recoupment Transport if he will publish the value of estimated tax of funds for SEN support services for the 2011-12 receipts, calculated in accordance with the Green financial year as a consequence of the increasing number Book, in each public sector economic assessment of of schools converting to Academy status. Arrangements private finance initiative projects in procurement by his for future years are the subject of the wider review of Department as of March 2011. [70922] school and Academy funding. Norman Baker: When carrying out an appraisal of a project or policy, the Green Book sets out options that should be adjusted for material differences in tax. TRANSPORT Differences in tax receipts between PFI and conventionally funded projects are considered as part of HM Treasury’s Aviation Value for Money model which is run by the Department for each PFI project at the appraisal stage. The output Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for of the model is one source of information that is used to Transport what assessment he has made of changes inform the overall value for money assessment of the proposed by the EU to flight time limitations. [71001] project. For those projects in procurement in March 2011 the Mrs Villiers: The European Aviation Safety Agency percentage by which the public sector comparator is consulted on draft implementing rules on flight time uplifted to reflect the additional tax take that accrues to limitations earlier this year. The Civil Aviation Authority the Government from the private finance option is considers that the proposed requirements have many given as follows: positive aspects but it has indentified three issues which need to be addressed before we could accept the proposals. Percentage We have made these points in our response to the consultation. EASA are in the process of reviewing the Cambridgeshire Street Lighting 4 Croydon and Lewisham Street 4 responses to consultation and will be issuing an amended Lighting proposal in due course. 991W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 992W

We are progressing plans to enable the police to Percentage enforce against careless and inconsiderate driving more Knowsley Street Lighting 6 efficiently. Northamptonshire Street 4 Lighting Driving: Standards Oldham Street Lighting 4 Rochdale Street Lighting 4 Luciana Berger: To ask the Secretary of State for Hounslow Highway 4 Transport when he will confirm the level of funding Maintenance from the public purse for the 2011 Smarter Driving Isle of Wight Highway 6 Programme. [68617] Maintenance Sheffield Highway Maintenance 6 Norman Baker: The Department for Transport will Nottingham Express Transit 8 provide up to £420,000 of funding in 2011-12 for this Extension programme. Government funding will be matched by broadly equivalent funding paid by the businesses taking These figures are for outline business cases at the part in the programme. pre-market appraisal stage and therefore are not used to assess tax takes from specific PFI providers after contracts East Coast Railway Line: Standards have been signed. Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Work Experience Transport what delays to passenger rail services on the East Coast Main Line have been recorded in each of the last six months. [68967] Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport how many (a) persons undertaking unpaid Norman Baker: For the whole of East Coast, delay work experience, (b) unpaid interns and (c) other minutes and public performance measure (PPM) for the persons in unpaid positions were working in his past six rail periods requested were attributed as follows: Department as of 1 July 2011. [69517] 2011 Norman Baker: The Department for Transport does East East Coast Coast East Coast East Coast not currently collect data on people undertaking paid delay delay PPM PPM or unpaid work experience. However, as part of the civil Rail minutes minutes (period) (MAA) service wide ’Get Britain Working’ programme, the periods (period) (MAA) (percentage) (percentage) Department has made a pledge to offer 1,000 Work Placements over the coming year. These will take place March 23,619 28,261 85.7 83.3 across all agencies and the central Department. Each April 26,536 28,391 86.6 83.3 placement will be two weeks in length and will be May 23,379 28,567 86.1 83.1 offered to jobseeker’s allowance customers aged 18 to May/June 25,034 28,980 88.5 83.2 24. Eligible individuals will be those whose limited June/July 37,952 29,993 81.9 83.0 experience of work is acting as a barrier to employment. July/ 24,587 30,122 89.2 83.3 Although these placements will be unpaid in terms of August departmental funds, candidates will still be in receipt of Great Western Railway their benefits while in post. Any additional travel required as part of the candidate’s placement (e.g. to and from the Business Skills Workshops) will be organised and Sheryll Murray: To ask the Secretary of State for paid for by the Department. Any additional travel Transport (1) whether he plans to introduce new rolling required as part of the placements (e.g. to Business stock on the Great Western mainline west of Plymouth Skills Workshops) will be organised and paid for by the in the next four years; [70235] Department. (2) when he expects to announce whether the proposed fleet of future Intercity Express trains will Driving: Offences terminate at Exeter or serve Cornwall. [70237] Mrs Villiers: The Government are committed to a Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for less prescriptive approach to the specification of rail Transport if he will bring forward proposals to make it franchises, with decisions such as rolling stock provision a driving offence for a motorist to interrupt the line of devolved primarily to franchise operators. vehicles included in a funeral cortege; and if he will The current Great Western franchise will terminate in make a statement. [70273] April 2013, and as part of the specification of the new franchise, we will consult on the level of services the Mike Penning: We have no current plans for a new new franchise should offer. This is likely to include specific driving offence related to the interruption of a opportunities for franchise bidders to deploy new trains. line of vehicles within a funeral cortege. Existing offences, for example related to careless and Network Rail inconsiderate driving, are relevant to so-called ’road rage’ and other aggressive driving in the vicinity of Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport funeral corteges. An additional specific offence would with reference to the McNulty Rail Value for Money be unlikely to assist penalising the worst examples of study of May 2011, whether he plans to retain the poor driving behaviour. existing Ticketing and Settlement Agreement. [71188] 993W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 994W

Mrs Villiers: The Ticketing and Settlement Agreement Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock (TSA) is a rail industry agreement overseen by the Association of Train Operating Companies (ATOC). It would be for ATOC to propose any changes to the John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for agreement for the Secretary of State’s approval. Transport what assessment his Department made of the effects on the (a) rolling stock leasing and (b) rolling ATOC has indicated that it is considering bringing stock maintenance market in the awarding of a preferred forward significant changes to the agreement. The bidder for the Thameslink rolling stock contract. [R] Government will consider any such proposals carefully, [68718] bearing in mind all relevant matters including the recommendations of the rail value for money study. Mrs Villiers: The Thameslink rolling stock invitation Government are currently considering the to tender evaluation criteria and process for the selection recommendations of the rail value for money study, but of a preferred bidder did not include provisions relating no decisions have yet been taken. to an assessment of the effects the selection of a preferred bidder would have on the rolling stock leasing and Railways rolling stock maintenance markets. However, when developing the invitation to tender Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport structure the Department and its advisers considered what consideration has been given to providing funding the options for the financing and maintenance of the for a railway line to link Reading with Norwich and new Thameslink rolling stock. Ipswich via Oxford, Milton Keynes, Bedford and The Department considered that the scale of the Cambridge. [71176] total capital funding requirement, circa £2 billion, was beyond the capacity of the existing UK rolling stock Mrs Villiers: The Department for Transport has indicated leasing organisations, i.e. the ROSCOs. Consequently to the promoters of the scheme that funding for re-instating the Department included requirements for financing the railway line between Bicester and Bletchley will be which, while including the ROSCOs as a potential considered during the development of the High Level source of funds, allowed a wider funding group to Output Specification which is due to be published in participate in the Thameslink competition. Ultimately July 2012. The Specification will set out rail investment this may lead to a more competitive train leasing market requirements for the period between 2014 and 2019. in the UK through the introduction of new funders. The scheme has the potential to link Reading with Bedford and Milton Keynes via Oxford. Margaret Beckett: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) Rescue Services Transport what proportion of the existing managerial and supervisory and (b) technical train maintenance staff employed by First Capital Connect he expects to Martin Caton: To ask the Secretary of State for be transferred to Siemens under the Thameslink Rolling Transport whether the number of jobs sponsored by Stock Project. [68849] his Department in an area was among the original criteria used to identify the best location for retention of maritime rescue coordination centres as part of the Mrs Villiers: Assuming a successful conclusions of contractual negotiations, it will be responsibility of the coastguard reform process. [70711] Thameslink train operator and Siemens to ensure that there are sufficient staff to enable the new and existing Mike Penning: The MCA published a location matrix trains to be maintained and operated safely at all times. and impact assessment setting out the rationale for the proposed choice of sub-centres to support the consultation Siemens will be required to co-operate with the document published on 16 December. This can be Thameslink train operator during the period of new found at: train introduction to achieve a managed transition of http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/ maintenance responsibility during this period. 8.location_impact_assessment_and_sub-centre_rationale_v3.pdf This assessment identified a range of practical factors Margaret Beckett: To ask the Secretary of State for around collocation of other activities, security of tenure Transport pursuant to the answer of 18 July 2011, and reinstatement costs if a site were vacated that Official Report, column 718W, on Thameslink railway provided a basis for choices between locations. line: rolling stock, what the reasons were for the time Further investigation of the factors surrounding Milford taken between his endorsement of the recommendation Haven and Swansea revealed that, contrary to the original and the announcement of the preferred bidder for the assessment, the reinstatement obligations at Swansea Thameslink Rolling Stock Project. [69198] do not provide the strong financial grounds for retaining this site rather than Milford Haven. There are also no Mrs Villiers: It is standard practice for a number of other practical or operational reasons to favour either internal processes to be worked through before an location. In these circumstances, we have also taken announcement is made. This was a significant into account the Department for Transport’s substantial announcement that other Government Departments wider presence in Swansea with both the DVLA and needed to be fully aware of before it was announced. our Shared Services Centre located there and we have Given the significance of this announcement it clearly concluded that it is more appropriate to retain the would not have been appropriate to make it during the Coastguard centre and Coastguard jobs at Milford parliamentary Whitsun recess, which added further to Haven. the delay. 995W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 996W

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Tourism: Yorkshire and Humberside Broadband: Berkshire Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how much he Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for allocated for tourism promotion in Yorkshire and the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what criteria he Humber in each year since 1996-97. [71471] considered pertinent when allocating funding to (a) Berkshire, (b) Oxfordshire and (c) Buckinghamshire for extending broadband to rural areas. [71177] John Penrose: Yorkshire Forward has been the regional development agency (RDA) responsible for supporting Mr Vaizey: The criteria used to determine the funding tourism in Yorkshire and the Humber. Prior to 2003, allocations for Berkshire, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire the Yorkshire Tourist Board held this responsibility and were the same criteria used in the assessment of all figures held by region are not available centrally. other allocations. An explanatory note outlining the Yorkshire Forward has indicated that the following criteria used is available on the Broadband Delivery amounts were allocated for supporting tourism in the UK pages of the Department for Culture, Media and region from 2003 (obtained from the Department for Sport website: Business, Innovation and Skills): http://www.culture.gov.uk/images/publications/BDUK-Data- Model-Expalantory-Notes.pdf £ million Departmental Private Finance Initiative 2003-04 0.6 2004-05 1.7 Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 2005-06 2.3 Olympics, Media and Sport if he will publish the value 2006-07 3.9 of estimated tax receipts, calculated in accordance with 2007-08 6.0 the Green Book, in each public sector economic assessment 2008-09 8.0 of all private finance initiative projects in procurement 2009-10 8.0 by his Department as of March 2011. [70921] 2010-11 7.0

John Penrose: This Department has no private finance VisitBritain and VisitEngland have additionally marketed initiative projects of its own, and therefore no tax Britain overseas and England within the UK and to receipts to be estimated. selected overseas markets. This investment is not apportioned on a regional or area-specific basis and it is Gambling not possible to disaggregate a specific Yorkshire and Humber spend, but the area is an important asset in our Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, overall offer and receives significant coverage in national Olympics, Media and Sport what plans his Department marketing campaigns. has to enforce the Government’s proposals for changes The hon. Member may wish to write to the chief to remote gambling laws following their implementation. executive of Yorkshire Forward to inquire if the regional [71121] development agency holds records for the period prior to 2003. John Penrose: The proposed reforms will mean operators based overseas who wish to sell into the British market UK Film Council will require a Gambling Commission licence. We are currently working with the Commission and Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for other stakeholders on the detailed arrangements of the Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport which films new regime and we expect to retain enforcement powers received funding from the UK Film Council in the last equivalent to those already in place under the Gambling five years; how much funding was awarded in each Act 2005. case; under what terms funding was provided in each Sports case; and in what circumstances the UK Film Council did not require that funding to be repaid. [70318] Mr Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment Mr Vaizey: All films that received funding from the he has made of how the Department might contribute UK Film Council (UKFC) over the past five years—and in the future development of the sport of indoor bowls. the amount of funding each film received—are published [70977] in the annual report and accounts, all of which have been formally laid in parliament, and can be found Hugh Robertson: No formal assessment has been using the link: made by this Department. However, its arm’s length http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/scripts/semaphore/ body Sport England currently funds the Bowls official_documents/semaphoreserver.exe?SAVEDB=OPSI- Development Alliance (BDA) to increase participation Official_Documents&STYPE=simple&Method=simple&CMD= in Indoor Bowls for the over 65s and to improve satisfaction search.run&ORGANISE_CODED=%3A&B-TPDF& levels throughout the sport. They also run two initiatives QUERY00=UKFC to introduce people to the sport and offer four weeks of or by visiting the UKFC website: free coaching to new participants: Have Mat Will Travel http://www.ukfilmcouncil.org.uk/publications?page= and Bowls4Free. 1&step=10&viewby=category&value=17010 997W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 998W

The general terms and conditions of this funding Grant Shapps: According to council tax data as at were published on the UKFC website as part of the 4 October 2010 there were (a) 8,246 empty homes in guidelines. The specific terms under which individual Berkshire, of which 3,182 were classed as long-term films were funded are subject to commercial confidentiality empty; and (b) 1,929 empty homes in Reading, of as there were other funders and financiers involved. The which 610 were classed as long-term empty. Homes funding for feature film development and production classed as long-term empty are those dwellings which was provided as a recoupable grant and there were no have been unoccupied and substantially unfurnished circumstances in which the UKFC waived the right to for over six months. Figures are not available on a be repaid. constituency basis. The terms and conditions for the Film Fund can now Figures on empty homes by local authority district be found on the BFI website at: are available on the Department for Communities and http://www.bfi.org.uk/about/funding/downloads/BFI-Film- Local Government website in live table 615 at the Fund-Terms.pdf following link: www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/stockincludingvacants/ livetables/ LEADER OF THE HOUSE We have put in place powerful tools and incentives to Business Committee support local communities to tackle empty homes. Through the New Homes Bonus, communities will receive a Mr Bone: To ask the Leader of the House when he direct financial reward for bringing an empty home expects to establish a House Business Committee. back into use. We are also investing £100 million through [71117] the Affordable Home Programme to tackle empty homes directly. Sir George Young: I refer my hon. Friend to the Enterprise Zones answer I gave during oral questions on 8 September 2011, Official Report, column 546. As set out in the coalition agreement, the Government are committed to Joan Walley: To ask the Secretary of State for establishing a House Business Committee in 2013. Communities and Local Government what criteria were used to assess bids in the Round 2 bidding process for local enterprise zones. [71202]

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Greg Clark [holding answer 9 September 2011]: The Departmental Private Finance Initiative Government assessed how bids for enterprise zones would best deliver local growth and jobs. As set out in the guidance published on 27 May, the assessment of Stella Creasy: To ask the Secretary of State for bids focused on three criteria: the extent to which the Communities and Local Government if he will publish bid would deliver growth; the value for the money of the value of estimated tax receipts, calculated in accordance the bid; and if the plans for delivery were robust. with the Green Book, in each public sector economic assessment of private finance initiative projects in Housing: Graduates procurement by his Department as of March 2011. [70924] Steve Rotheram: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what information Robert Neill: The Department itself has no private his Department holds on the number of UK graduates finance initiative projects in procurement. who have purchased a home in the last 15 years. [70434] However the Department does sponsor a number of housing, fire and joint service centre private finance Grant Shapps: In England, there are an estimated initiative projects that are being procured by local authorities 1.8 million home owners out of the 3.5 million people and fire and resilience authorities. who have graduated in the last 15 years. Details of tax payable estimates for sponsored private Source: finance initiative projects will be contained in project English Housing Survey, 2009-10 specific documents held by individual local authorities and fire and resilience authorities and which are submitted Local Government: Expenditure to the Department at key procurement stages. This information is not currently collated or held on a database Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for though by the Department. Communities and Local Government what steps he has At 31 March 2011 there were 12 housing, two fire and taken to ensure that local councils abide by his three joint service centre private finance initiative projects Department’s guidelines for redacting figures when in procurement. publishing expenditure of £500 or more. [71090]

Empty Property: Berkshire Robert Neill: The Department has not produced guidelines for councils on redacting figures when publishing Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for expenditure of £500 or more. Following public consultation Communities and Local Government whether his earlier this year, the Department will shortly publish a Department has estimated the number of empty homes Code of Recommended Practice, setting out the principles in (a) Berkshire, (b) Reading and (c) Reading West and minimum standards that authorities should follow constituency. [70803] when publishing data. Local authorities must not release 999W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1000W data if that would contravene the Data Protection Act India 1998 or section 100A(2) LGA 1972. Additional guidelines produced by the sector can be viewed at this link: Keith Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign http://lgtransparency.readandcomment.com/ and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had with his Indian counterpart on the situation of the Adivasi peoples in central India. [71078]

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Alistair Burt: We have not discussed the situation of the Adivasi with the Indian Government. However, we British Nationals Abroad: Homicide regularly discuss human rights issues, including minority rights, with the Indian Government both bilaterally and through the EU-India Human Rights Dialogue. In addition, Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign our high commission in Delhi also has regular meetings and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has with the National Commission for Minorities and Indian had with ministerial colleagues on support for families Minorities Minister Salman Khursheed. affected by the murder of a British national abroad. [70101] Iraq: Kurds

Alistair Burt: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Meg Munn: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (FCO) officials have had discussions with officials at and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has the Ministry of Justice to ensure that we can provide the received on military incursions by Turkey and Iran into best possible support for families bereaved by a murder the Kurdistan region of Iraq; and if he will make a abroad. The FCO is also represented on the Homicide statement. [70760] Service Implementation Group, which oversees the work of the Victim Support National Homicide Service. Alistair Burt: We received reports of Turkish airstrikes and artillery barrages in August targeting the terrorist Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign group PKK (Kurdistan Workers’ Party), and in July of and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has Iranian shelling and an incursion to attack PJAK (Free had with representatives of (a) the Council of Europe, Life Party of Kurdistan) bases. The Kurdistan Regional (b) the EU and (c) other governments on the services Government has appealed for a cessation to all hostilities and support available to families of British nationals and for the PKK as well as the PJAK to lay down their murdered overseas. [70129] weapons. We take attacks across borders seriously and pay Alistair Burt: The UK has opted in to the proposed close attention to the circumstances in which they occur. EU directive establishing minimum standards on the We call for cooperation with the Governments of Iraq rights, support and protection of victims of crime, and and the Kurdistan Region over the threat in the border is participating in the negotiations on the directive. We areas, and have expressed our concern about indiscriminate welcome the proposed directive, which will benefit UK Iranian shelling. citizens who are victims in other EU member states. They will be afforded minimum rights, support and Libya protection to a level similar to that they would receive as a victim of crime in the UK. The directive will allow UK citizens to move throughout the EU with confidence Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for that should they fall victim to crime in any member Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment state, their rights will be respected when participating in he has made of reports of allegations of abuses perpetrated criminal proceedings and they will be able to access a by the forces of (a) the former Government of Libya minimum level of support across the EU. and (b) the Transitional National Council; and if he will make a statement. [70832] Diplomatic Service: Internet Alistair Burt: The Government have made clear that all those committing human rights abuses and atrocities Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for in Libya must be brought to justice. The UK led the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is drive for referral of the situation in Libya to the on the use of UK embassy websites to campaign on International Criminal Court in UN Security Council issues within their host nations. [70177] Resolution 1970 and called for a special session of the Human Rights Council which set up the Commission Mr Lidington: The Foreign and Commonwealth of Inquiry into Libya. The Commission reported systematic Office (FCO) has a network of over 250 embassy websites abuse of civilians, including evidence of excessive use of with content in over 40 languages. Their purpose is to force, a pattern of enforced disappearances, and deliberate showcase and support the work of British embassies destruction and attacks on medical transports and facilities abroad, share key information with the public, and to by Gaddafi forces. These are clear demonstrations of play a role in the delivery of FCO and posts’ objectives, the former Gaddafi regime’s disregard for international including policy goals. Their audiences range from law. British citizens abroad to visitors wishing to travel to The UN Human Rights Council’s Commission of the UK, to opinion formers and influencers in their Inquiry first report in June 2011 also found that there host countries. were some instances of human right abuses levelled 1001W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1002W against the then opposition fighters, although it concluded issues of mutual concern, especially the Middle East that these were not part of a widespread or systematic Peace Process and wider Israeli/Palestinian concerns. attack against civilians. Most recently, Her Majesty’s Ambassador to Cairo met Since then, the National Transitional Council (NTC) the Secretary General of the Arab League on 8 September. has continued to voice its commitment to International The UK’s position on all terrorist attacks is that they Humanitarian and Human Rights law, and has stated should be condemned unreservedly. This is especially its intent to fully implement the Commission’s report important as efforts, for peace in the region continue recommendations. Articles 7 & 8 of the Draft Constitutional and all parties should be doing everything they can to Declaration clearly outline the NTC’s plan to join prevent violence and coming together to negotiate. international and regional declarations and charters Representations on meetings and statements of the that protect human rights and basic freedoms. The Arab League may best be made to the Arab League NTC has also taken action. It produced and reissued a themselves. The Head of the Office in London is Dr Adel frontline manual instructing Libyan civilians on the Babesail, who can be contacted at: fundamental rules that must be adhered to in conflict and has conducted an investigation into reports of [email protected] mistreatment of prisoners. We welcome this emphasis and their commitment, and will continue to raise these Nguyen Van Ly issues with them. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Middle East: Armed Conflict Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations his Department has made to the government of Vietnam Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign for the early release of Father Nguyen Van Ly. [70139] and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received of the firing of mortars and Qassam rockets Alistair Burt: The UK Government are concerned into southern Israel from Gaza on 4 July 2011; and if about the Vietnamese authorities’ decision to return he will make a statement. [R] [70999] Father Ly to prison on 25 July and we are continuing to monitor his case closely. We fully endorse the EU High Alistair Burt: Our embassy in Tel Aviv monitor rocket Representative’s statement of 29 July 2011 on Father attacks on Israel closely. As we have consistently made Ly’s re-imprisonment. Father Ly is included on the clear, all such attacks should stop. Our understanding is local EU list of persons and detainees of concern which that the situation was quiet on the Gaza-Israel border we share regularly with the Vietnamese authorities to on 4 July 2011 and no rockets were fired into Israel that seek information about the welfare of the detainees and day. to request their immediate release. More recently, from 18-21 August, we witnessed once again an alarming escalation in violence. I issued a Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for statement making clear our concerns about the violence Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make in Gaza and southern Israel. Nine Israelis were killed representations to the government of Vietnam to and many more were injured. In Gaza, at least 15 release Father Nguyen Van Ly from prison. [70140] people were reported killed, including three children. We strongly condemned this appalling violence. The announcement of a ceasefire is welcome. Alistair Burt: The EU engages regularly with the Vietnamese authorities on a list of persons and detainees http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/news/latest-news/?view=News &id=645743582 of concern, seeking information about the welfare of the detainees and requesting their immediate release. We have urged that everything is done to avoid further The list, which includes Father Ly, was raised most civilian casualties. It is vital that all sides show restraint recently with the Vietnamese authorities on 24 August. and seek to reduce tensions. The UK Government remain concerned about the Vietnamese authorities’ decision to return Father Ly Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign to prison on 25 July and we are continuing to monitor and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what recent reports he his case closely. We fully endorse the EU High has received of (a) meetings of and (b) statements by Representative’s statement of 29 July 2011 on Father the Arab League on responses to terrorism by Israel; Ly’s re-imprisonment. and if he will make a statement; [R] [71019] (2) what recent discussions he has had with the Arab Oslo League on statements by that organisation condemning Arab terrorism in Israel; and if he will make a statement; [R] [71239] Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign (3) what recent reports he has received of occasions and Commonwealth Affairs what account he has taken when members of the Arab League have (a) met to of the Oslo interim agreement in developing his policy discuss and (b) issued statements to condemn terrorist on the proposed UN resolution on a Palestinian State. incidents (i) in Israel committed by Hamas and (ii) in [70738] Israel and the West Bank committed by (A) Arab organisations and (B) Hezbollah. [R] [71240] Alistair Burt: The UK’s policy is that the best way to resolve this long standing conflict is through a negotiated Alistair Burt: UK Ministers and officials are in regular two-state solution. Our approach is to encourage the contact with the Arab League, an organisation key to parties to agree a lasting settlement, including through UK objectives in the region. We discuss a range of implementation of the Oslo Accords. 1003W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1004W

Failure to return to negotiations now puts at risk the WORK AND PENSIONS long term prospects for a solution and, in the short term, may provoke difficult choices in the UN. Neither Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Israel nor the Palestinians can afford to let the opportunity for peace slip further from their grasp. Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Along with our European Union partners, we are Work and Pensions what definition of myalgic working to build consensus on a way forward that encephalopathy his Department uses; and how it recognises the progress the Palestinians have made on categorises the condition. [71238] their state-building efforts, that meets Israel’s legitimate security concerns, and that avoids confrontation in the UN. Chris Grayling: DWP guidance defines Chronic Fatigue Whatever action is taken in New York, it is important Syndrome/Myalgic Encephalomyelitis as: that this increases the prospects for a return to negotiations. “an illness that is characterised by physical and mental fatigue and fatigability.” Guidance does not formally categorise the condition Politics and Government but states that: “it is important to ensure full consideration is given to all the disabling effects of the illness.” Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most Employment recent assessment is of the political and security situation in Libya. [70864] Jonathan Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what assessment he has made of Alistair Burt: The Government have welcomed the recent trends in part-time working; what estimate he National Transitional Council’s (NTC) Constitutional has made of the number of part-time employees in the Declaration. The NTC has shown its commitment to a quarter to June 2011; what estimate he has made of the more open and democratic Libya and is working to number of such employees who are seeking a full-time achieve this through an inclusive political process. The job; what assessment he has made of the effects of formation of an interim government in Tripoli is expected recent trends in part-time working on the economy; soon. As the Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the and if he will make a statement; [70034] Member for Witney (Mr Cameron) said on 5 September (2) what assessment he has made of recent trends in 2011, the Libyan people can be proud of what they have temporary employment; what estimate he has made of achieved. They now have the opportunity to decide the number of people working as temporary employees their own future. in the quarter to June 2011; what estimate he has made The NTC has also articulated its stabilisation plan. The of the number of such employees who are seeking a UK will be at the forefront of international efforts permanent job; what assessment he has made of the to assist Libyans in planning and implementation of this effects of recent trends in the number of temporary plan. We support the role of the UN in co-ordinating employees on the economy; and if he will make a international assistance to the new Libyan statement. [70035] authorities. The overall security situation is improving with all Mr Hurd: I have been asked to reply. but a few population centres free of Gaddafi forces. The information requested falls within the responsibility Pressure continues to increase on the remnants of his of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority forces in Sirte, Bani Walid and Sabha, and NATO is to reply. continuing to implement United Nations Security Council Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated September 2011: Resolution 1973. As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Questions asking: Somalia: Famine (i) what assessment he has made of recent trends in part-time working; what estimate he has made of the number of part-time employees in the quarter to June 2011; what estimate he has made of the number of such employees who are seeking a full-time job; Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for what assessment he has made of the effects of recent trends in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent part-time working on the economy (70034); and discussions he has had with the Government of Kenya (ii) what assessment he has made of recent trends in temporary on the use of refugee facilities for victims of the famine employment; what estimate he has made of the number of people in Somalia. [69080] working as temporary employees in the quarter to June 2011; what estimate he has made of the number of such employees who are seeking a permanent job; what assessment he has made of the Mr Andrew Mitchell: I have been asked to reply. effects of recent trends in the number of temporary employees on the economy (70035); During my visit to Kenya in July, I pressed the Kenyan Prime Minister and Minister for Provincial For the period April-June 2011 there were an estimated 6.678 million employees in the UK working part-time (seasonally adjusted). Administration and Internal Security Affairs over the On a non-seasonally adjusted basis there were 6.681 million need to allocate more camp space for refugees fleeing part-time employees, of which 1.097 million reported that they Somalia. The Ifo II and Kambioos camps in Dadaab had taken part-time employment because they had not been able have since been opened. to find a full-time job. 1005W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1006W

For the same period there were an estimated 1.608 million £1,274—allowing them to establish their business and people working as temporary employees, of which 0.601 million cash flow—and if they need start-up capital they may reported that they had taken a temporary job because they had also apply for an unsecured loan of up to £1,000 to help not been able to find a permanent job (both figures seasonally them with start-up costs such as buying their initial adjusted). equipment. The ONS does not publish estimates of trends in these statistics. Nor does it assess the effects of temporary and part-time working The new enterprise allowance is now available throughout on the economy. However, time series for the statistics requested Great Britain. are published among the tables associated with the monthly We are also supporting the development of local Labour Market Statistical Bulletin. Enterprise Clubs, helping people make the most of The estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey local knowledge and resources to support unemployed (LFS). As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are people in their communities who are interested in becoming subject to a margin of uncertainty. Indications of the sampling variability of LFS aggregate estimates are provided in the Statistical self-employed. Enterprise Clubs provide unemployed Bulletin. people interested in self-employment with a place to meet and exchange skills, make contacts, share experiences, Enterprise Clubs receive support and encourage each other to work through their business ideas. Jobcentre Plus advisers signpost Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for claimants interested in self-employment to their local Work and Pensions how many enterprise clubs have Enterprise Club where one is available. been set up in (a) England, (b) the South East and (c) Kent. [71386] Welfare to Work

Chris Grayling: The Department does not publish Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Work statistics on Enterprise Clubs as they are a locally and Pensions what welfare-to-work organisations driven initiative that will evolve over time, and their operating in Reading West constituency have a contract support can be accessed without referral from Jobcentre with his Department. [71182] Plus. Jobseeker’s Allowance Chris Grayling: Action for Employment and Maximus hold Work programme contracts in Reading. In addition, Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Action for Employment has a Jobcentre Plus Support Work and Pensions what steps he is taking to Contract and Shaw Trust holds a Work Choice contract. encourage claimants of jobseeker’s allowance to become self-employed. [71388] Work Capability Assessment

Chris Grayling: The new enterprise allowance (NEA) Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for provides help to unemployed people to start their own Work and Pensions how many Work Capability business. It is available to people who have been claiming Assessments have been initiated in East Hampshire jobseeker’s allowance for six months or more. It provides constituency to date. [70759] access to business mentoring and offers financial support. Jobseeker’s allowance claimants who participate in Chris Grayling: The following table presents data for the new enterprise allowance work with a volunteer employment and support allowance (ESA) claims in business mentor who will provide them with guidance East Hampshire local authority area starting between and support as they develop their business idea, and October 2008 to November 2010 (the latest data available). through the early stages of trading. To be eligible to The table shows the outcomes at initial and repeat work receive the financial support, the claimant has to capability assessments. Note that claims closed before demonstrate that their business idea is viable and has the assessment was complete have been included for growth potential. The financial support consists of a completeness as the claim may have been closed after weekly allowance payable over 26 weeks worth up to the work capability assessment was initiated.

ESA claims starting in East Hampshire Number Claim closed Work-related before assessment Assessment still in Support group activity group Fit for work complete progress All claims

Initial assessments 110 230 380 510 10 1,250 Repeat assessments 30 110 50 40 30 250 Total 140 340 440 550 40 1,500 Notes: 1. The Department regularly publishes official statistics on the employment and support allowance (ESA) work capability assessment at the national level. The latest report, published in July 2011, covers new claimants to ESA for October 2008 to November 2010 (the latest data available) and can be found here: http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/index.php?page=esa_wca 2. The data presented above comes from benefit claims data held by the Department for Work and Pensions and functional assessment data from Atos Healthcare. 3. These figures do not include incapacity benefit reassessment claims. 4. A small number of clerical assessments, where the result cannot be determined from DWP benefits data, are excluded from these figures. 1007W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1008W

DEFENCE Mr Robathan: The average length of service on exit for trained infantry soldiers who left during the period Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations 1 April 2009 to 31 July 2011 was 8.7 years. For those who joined under the age of 18 it was David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for 10 years and for those who joined aged 18 or over it was Defence what steps he is taking to improve supply 7.6 years. chain mechanisms to deliver resources to military Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for personnel serving in Afghanistan. [70649] Defence how many armed forces personnel in (a) trained and (b) untrained strength are not deployable Peter Luff: As recognised by the Committee of Public due to their age. [70673] Accounts Forty-Third report of Session 2010-12, the chain by which military operations, such as those in Mr Robathan: As at 1 July 2011, there were 150 Afghanistan, are supplied with essential equipment and trained service personnel who were not fully deployable supplies would be much more efficient if directed by a as they were under the age of 18. There were 1,940 modern information system supported by appropriate untrained service personnel under the age of 18. skills and procedures. A comprehensive programme is under way to replace the current ageing and obsolete Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for logistics information systems with new capabilities including Defence what studies his Department has undertaken the Future Logistics Information Services project (which into the cost of recruiting, training and paying 16 year will replace the base inventory systems), the Management old soldiers for up to two years before they can be of the Joint Deployed Inventory (MJDI) system (for deployed since the commencement of the Strategic deployed assets) and the Joint Asset Management Defence and Security Review. [70675] Engineering Solution (JAMES) (to improve the management of land equipment). Mr Robathan: None. MJDI and JAMES are currently being rolled out. Armed Forces: Discharges These will contribute to improved materiel accounting and early increments of MJDI are already in service Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for within some units within Afghanistan, with the programme Defence what measures are in place to assist resettlement due to deliver the full MJDI and JAMES capabilities in of early service leavers who enlisted below the age of 18. 2014. [70678] In addition, the new single tri-service base inventory and warehousing system, to replace the individual systems Mr Robathan: Resettlement assistance is offered to used in all three services, will also be delivered incrementally. all early service leavers, regardless of their age. This This will see a major step change in the support chain includes a briefing at unit level on all the services and and materiel accounting, with a rationalised modern organisations that are in a position to help them in their base inventory and warehouse service with easier transition to civilian life and guidance on accessing the reconciliation with the Ministry of Defence’s finance services available through the Department of Work and systems. Pensions (DWP) to which, as ex-service personnel, they have early access. DWP services include an interview by Armed Forces trained consultants, access to online job search facilities, practical guidance on creating and updating CVs, identifying transferrable skills and training opportunities, professional Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for help in completing job applications and development of Defence what assessment he has made of the need for interview skills with the aid of expert staff. Advice is an officer of high rank to (a) oversee and organise the also given on housing issues, pensions and the Armed return of troops from Germany and (b) lead the new Forces Compensation Scheme. Multi-Role Brigade. [70191] From November 2011, we are enhancing the resettlement package for all early service leavers, regardless of their Nick Harvey: It has been agreed that the senior age, through trialling best practice industry solutions. military officer who will oversee the return of troops The aim of the trials is to improve employment outcomes from Germany will be the Commander-in-Chief Land for those who leave early through the offer of a more Forces. He will be supported by the chief executive of personalised and sophisticated level of resettlement. the Defence Infrastructure Organisation, who is responsible Under these trials we also aim to offer greater support for the preparation of the UK Defence estate in advance for any who leave early and are vulnerable to social of the troops returning, and the return of the estate that exclusion, again, regardless of their age. the Army currently occupies in Germany to the German Federal authorities. Personnel who leave early as a result of being medically discharged are entitled to the most comprehensive There are no plans to change the manner in which resettlement package through the Career Transition operational brigades are commanded; the multi-role Partnership. This consists of a range of transition services brigades will be commanded by brigadiers selected in and concessions in time, money and training opportunities. line with current Army policy. Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Alex Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many early service leavers left the armed Defence what the average length of service is for an forces in the last 12 months; how many of those were infantry soldier who enlists (a) aged 18 or above and aged 21 or younger; and how many enlisted below the (b) below the age of 18. [70672] age of 18. [70679] 1009W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1010W

Mr Robathan: In the financial year 2010-11, 6,130 Royal Auxiliary Air Force, Armed Forces Careers Office, personnel left the armed forces with less than four Defence Equipment and Support, Headquarters 51 years’ service, of which 3,740 were aged under 21. Of (Scottish) Brigade, Headquarters International Security the 6,130, 2,180 were aged under 18 when they enlisted. Assistance Force, Royal Air Force Leuchars, Scottish The figures comprise UK Regular forces, both trained Transport Regiment Royal Logistics Corps (Volunteers) and untrained, and are rounded to the nearest 10. and Deputy Chief of the Defence Staff Personnel. Armed Forces: Housing Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many (a) families and (b) children are Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for living in army accommodation at (i) Craigiehall, (ii) Defence (1) which personnel use Craigiehall housing Redford and (iii) Dreghorn. [70201] stock; [70185] (2) which bodies own the housing stock associated Mr Robathan: Service family accommodation (SFA) with the Craigiehall base in Edinburgh; [70186] is a tri-service asset and properties are not allocated to (3) what plans he has for the future of housing stock individual barracks or units. As at 5 September 2011, at Craigiehall. [70207] records show there were 648 families with 929 children under the age of 18 living in SFA in the Edinburgh area. Mr Robathan: There are 78 service family accommodation (SFA) properties at Craigiehall that Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for are owned by the Ministry of Defence. The exact future Defence (1) how many single accommodation places requirement for SFA in the Edinburgh area is under there are for (a) officers and (b) other ranks at (i) review, however, it is expected that all current housing Redford Barracks, (ii) Dreghorn Barracks and (iii) stock will continue to be required to accommodate Craigiehall; [70277] entitled service personnel and their families. (2) how many and what proportion of units of (a) As at 5 September 2011, SFA at Craigiehall was used single living accommodation and (b) service family to accommodate entitled personnel from the following accommodation at each grade there are at (i) Redford units: 1st Battalion Royal Regiment of Scotland, 105 Barracks, (ii) Dreghorn Barracks and (iii) Craigiehall. Regiment Royal Artillery (Volunteers), 11 Explosive [70279] Ordnance Disposal Regiment Royal Logistics Corps, Headquarters 2nd Division, 22 Military Intelligence Mr Robathan: The number of single living Company, 33 Engineer Regiment (Explosive Ordnance accommodation bedspaces together with standard for Disposal), 45 Commando Royal Marines, 6th Battalion condition (SfC) at Redford Barracks, Dreghorn Barracks Royal Regiment of Scotland (Volunteers), 603 Squadron and Craigiehall is shown in the following table:

Establishment Rank SfC 1 SfC 2 SfC 3 SfC 4 Total

Redford Barracks Officer — 13 48 — 61 Other ranks — 44 160 197 401 Redford total — 57 208 197 462

Dreghorn Barracks Officer — 16 25 9 50 Other ranks — — 135 242 377 Dreghorn total — 16 160 251 427

Craigiehall Officer ———4747 Other ranks ———2424 Craigiehall total ———7171

Overall total 0 73 368 519 960

Service family accommodation (SFA) is a tri-service the last 10 years for (a) Redford Barracks, (b) asset and properties are not allocated to individual Dreghorn Barracks and (c) Craigiehall. [70280] barracks or units. There are some 757 SFA across Edinburgh of which 738 are at SfC 1 and 19 are at SfC 2. Mr Robathan: The amount spent on single living Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for accommodation in Redford Barracks, Dreghorn Barracks, Defence how much was spent on accommodation in and Craigiehall is shown in the following table:

£ million 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Dreghorn 0.13 0.24 0.15 0.14 0.19 0.25 0.26 0.27 1011W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1012W

£ million 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Craigiehall 0.05 0.16 0.23 0.13 0.05 0.06 0.09 0.13 Redford 0.16 0.50 0.60 1.34 0.56 0.78 0.55 0.98

Service family accommodation (SFA) is managed on planning is under way but the location of the directorates a tri-service basis and is not broken down by individual and the numbers, of service and civilian personnel to be sites. The amount spent on SFA in Edinburgh is shown assigned to them has yet to be determined. in the following table: No regiments will be amalgamated or disbanded as a result of the creation of the combat capability directorate. £ million

2003-04 0.51 Departmental Redundancy 2004-05 1.36 2005-06 2.75 Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for 2006-07 3.81 Defence how much his Department has spent on 2007-08 3.03 redundancy payments for armed forces personnel since 2008-09 2.95 May 2010. [71056] 2009-10 1.90 2010-11 2.10 Mr Robathan: Nothing.

Data prior to 2003 are not held. Military Aircraft Armed Forces: Training Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Defence when he expects simultaneously to maintain how many (a) Royal Air Force and (b) Royal Navy an (a) Amphibious and (b) Airborne Small Scale personnel undertaking pilot training were informed of Contingency Battle Group. [70860] (i) redundancy and (ii) termination of their place on their course; at what stage of their training they were so Nick Harvey: A contingent Amphibious Commando informed; and how many such personnel have been Group and Airborne Task Force, at battle group level, assigned to other duties. [70046] will be maintained simultaneously from financial year 2012. Mr Robathan: In March this year, 170 RAF student pilots left the flying training pipeline during the initial Military Bases phase of flying training, which is undertaken prior to learning to fly specific operational aircraft. Of those: Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for seven student pilots have secured career moves to ground-based Defence whether planning permission was obtained for branches; the previously planned modernisation of Craigiehall as 161 have been notified they will be made redundant; and a divisional headquarters. [70208] two are leaving the RAF for different reasons. Mr Robathan: Planning permission was granted by Redundancy notifications for personnel in the Royal Edinburgh city council for an office building to replace Navy will be issued on 30 September 2011. It would not the Annandale block at Craigiehall. However, it was be appropriate to announce how many of those are decided to delay commencement of work until the pilots prior to the announcement. requirement for a replacement was further developed Combat Capability Directorate and resources allowed. Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the estimated values are of the sites of Defence (1) where the headquarters for the (a) Combat United Kingdom Land Command at (a) Redford Capability Directorate, (b) Combat Support Capability Barracks, (b) Dreghorn Barracks and (c) Craigiehall. Directorate, (c) Information Capability Directorate and (d) Combat Service Support Capability Directorate [70276] will be located; [70841] Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence does not (2) how many (a) service and (b) civilian personnel routinely assess the current market value of all its estate will be assigned to (i) Combat Capability Directorate, because the estimated receipts will depend on market (ii) Combat Support Capability Directorate and (iii) conditions and other factors at the time of sale. Where the Information Capability Directorate; [70842] pre-sale valuations have been obtained, these are withheld (3) which regiments will be (a) amalgamated and as their disclosure would prejudice commercial interests. (b) disbanded as a result of the creation of the Combat Capability Directorate. [70844] Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the maintenance costs were for (a) Nick Harvey: The Army is planning to restructure Redford Barracks, (b) Dreghorn Barracks and (c) eight of its arms and service directorates into four Second Division headquarters at Craigiehall in each of capability directorates by the end of 2012. Detailed the last five years. [70281] 1013W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1014W

Mr Robathan: The maintenance costs for Redford INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Barracks, Dreghorn Barracks and Craigiehall in each of the last five years, are shown in the following table: Developing Countries: Transport

£ million 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what plans his Department Redford 3.1 1.4 2.5 2.0 3.0 has to assist with the development of transport links Barracks that would encourage tourism in each of the overseas Dreghorn 0.7 1.4 2.2 1.1 1.4 territories that receive assistance from his Department. Barracks [70885] Craigiehall 0.7 0.4 0.4 0.3 0.4

Mr Duncan: The Department for International Military Bases: Kirknewton Development in partnership with Overseas Territory Governments pursues every opportunity to encourage tourism that represents value for money for the UK Mike Crockart: To ask the Secretary of State for taxpayer and that will lead to economic development, Defence how many civilian jobs will be lost with the reduced dependence, and ultimately, greater self-sufficiency closure of (a) Craigiehall, (b) Redford and (c) for the territory. Dreghorn barracks; whether these jobs will be moved to the proposed new base at Kirknewton; and whether For example, DFID has been willing to finance an any such jobs which are moved to Kirknewton will be airport for St Helena subject to the conditions set out in Secretary of State for International Development’s written filled by army personnel. [70192] statement of 22 July 2010, Official Report, columns 46-47WS. For Montserrat, we are at the early stages of Mr Robathan: The number of civilian posts which considering an investment with the EU in an upgraded will be affected by the closure of Craigiehall, Redford port at Little Bay. DFID also currently subsidises sea and Dreghorn Barracks is shown in the following table: access to St Helena, Montserrat and Pitcairn to ensure that islanders and tourists can travel to these islands in Location Number of civilian posts1 a safe, predictable and affordable manner. Craigiehall (HQ 2nd Division) 150 Craigiehall (Other units) 80 Ethiopia: Overseas Aid Redford Barracks 63 Dreghorn Barracks 21 1 Some posts are currently vacant Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what changes have been made to the The future-of the civilian posts based in Headquarters mechanisms for tracking aid following the recommendations (HQ) 2nd Division at Craigiehall, will be considered as made in the report of the Development Assistance part of the process to create a single HQ Support Group Ethiopia on Aid Management and Utilisation in Command based in Aldershot. Ethiopia. [70680] The other units affected by the site closures at Craigiehall, Redford and Dreghorn Barracks will, as appropriate, be Mr O’Brien: The Development Assistance Group accommodated at other locations. This remains subject (DAG) report on Aid Management and Utilisation in to further detailed planning work on the timing and Ethiopia was published in August 2010. Since publication, sequencing of Army moves and it is too early to confirm the Department for International Development (DFID) where these units will be located or what the impact will and other international agencies have been working be on specific civilian jobs. with the Government of Ethiopia to implement the There is no intention to fill any civilian posts moving recommendations made in the report. Two examples of to Kirknewton with Army personnel. specific progress include the design of an independent grievance mechanism for the Protection of Basic Services programme and improvements to the systems that identify Navy who should be included in emergency nutrition programmes. DFID continues to play a leading role in these efforts. Mark Garnier: To ask the Secretary of State for But we would like to see swifter progress. Prompted by Defence what recent discussions he has had on steps to DFID, the DAG has this month advertised for a full-time equalise pay and conditions between Royal Fleet adviser to co-ordinate and accelerate the strengthening Auxiliary and Royal Navy personnel. [70335] of systems and safeguards in donor-supported programmes in Ethiopia. One early task for the adviser will include a Mr Robathan: The well established Royal Fleet Auxiliary comprehensive assessment of progress made in (RFA) conditions of service are based on civil service implementing the recommendations of the DAG report. and RFA specific policy, reflecting the distinct role of the RFA service, the status of the personnel as Ministry Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for of Defence civilians, and the tasks required of them in International Development what his policy is on the meeting Defence requirements. There have therefore recommendation for a second phase of work in the been no negotiations regarding the equalisation of pay report of the Development Assistance Group Ethiopia and conditions between the RFA and Royal Navy on Aid Management and Utilisation in Ethiopia; and if personnel. he will make a statement. [70681] 1015W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1016W

Mr O’Brien: The Development Assistance Group Mr Andrew Mitchell: The United Nations (UN) (DAG) study on Aid Management and Utilisation in maintains a website, accessible at: Ethiopia concluded with a report published in August http://fts.unocha.org/pageloader.aspx 2010. Since publication, the Department for International which has details of donor contributions to the horn of Development (DFID) and other international agencies Africa. Currently the UK is the second largest humanitarian have been working with the Government of Ethiopia to donor to region behind the United States. Since 1 July, strengthen the systems and safeguards in the programmes the UK has committed £124.29 million. During the covered by the report. This important ongoing work is third week of September, the UN General Assembly being taken forward in routine, programme-specific (UNGA) will sit in New York. I anticipate that UN dialogue. It is core business for DAG members, not a member states will pledge funds to the Horn relief ‘second phase’ of work. effort at UNGA. This makes it difficult to gauge what the overall donor response will be come 30 September. Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what support his Department (a) has According to the UN, regional financial shortfalls provided and (b) plans to provide to the Government across the Horn are $918 million as of 9 September. of Ethiopia for its policy of villagization. [70682] The UK is committed to encouraging other countries to support relief operations and lobbying others remains a Mr O’Brien: In February 2011, the Government of key component of the UK’s response. On this issue, Ethiopia approached the international community for over the summer, I have spoken many times to development support for its villagisation programme (now officially ministers from other countries, international agencies, known as the Commune Programme). such as UNICEF, WFP, UNHCR, and OCHR, and NGO’s, as have the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime The Department for International Development (DFID), Minister and the Foreign Secretary. The UK will maintain in collaboration with other international agencies, then the pressure on other donors to support life-saving developed a set of guidelines and principles for transparent humanitarian activities in the horn of Africa. and fair villagisation/resettlement processes in Ethiopia. These were discussed with and accepted by the Government Libya: Politics and Government of Ethiopia. DFID has also provided the Government with examples of good practice relating to resettlement Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for and villagisation processes. International Development (1) what support he plans While we do not plan to provide financial support to to give to the National Transitional Council to help the Commune Programme, we are discussing with the strengthen state institutions in Libya; [70547] Government of Ethiopia, relevant regional authorities (2) what support he plans to give to the National and international partners how we can best support Transitional Council to counter any threat of violent accelerated development in the four developing regions extremism in Libya; [70546] of Ethiopia, which include those regions where the Commune Programme is being implemented. (3) what support he plans to give to the National Transitional Council to pursue sustainable economic Ethiopia: Resettlement development in Libya; [70545] (4) what support he plans to give to the National Ann Clwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for International Transitional Council for the reconstruction and Development if he will place in the Library a copy of development of local infrastructure in Libya; [70544] the recent assessment led by his Department of the (5) what support he plans to give to the National villagization process in the Gambella region of Ethiopia. Transitional Council to make progress towards [70684] democratic reform in Libya; [70543] Mr O’Brien: In February 2011, officials from the (6) what support he plans to give to the National Department for International Development (DFID) in Transitional Council to promote the development of Ethiopia participated in a multi-agency assessment of free and independent media in Libya. [70542] villagisation (now officially known as the Commune Programme) in the Gambella region of Ethiopia. The Mr Andrew Mitchell: The transition in Libya must be findings were captured in a report, which was shared Libyan led and Libyan owned, supported by the with the Government of Ethiopia. international community. We will continue to support the Libyan people, through the leadership of the National The decision to share the report requires agreement Transitional Council, in stabilising their country. We by all agencies involved in the mission. DFID Ethiopia are discussing with the National Transitional Council is seeking approval to release the report from the agencies what their needs are: the UK’s role in meeting these will involved. be determined in conjunction with other international Horn of Africa: Droughts partners, under the co-ordination of the United Nations. Strong support by the UK on all aspects of stabilisation Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of has been given to the NTC over recent months. State for International Development what information his Department holds on the amounts donated by North Africa: Transport other donors to alleviate the drought crisis in the horn of Africa; what estimate he has made of total Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for donations by 30 September 2011; what estimate he has International Development what his policy is on plans made of outstanding financial requirements; and what for the Lamu-Southern Sudan Ethiopia Transport steps he is taking to attract greater donations. [70774] Corridor. [70151] 1017W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1018W

Mr O’Brien: DFID is supporting transport corridor Emergency shelter and non-food items to 2.4 million people development in east and southern Africa as part of the Life-saving health and nutritional support to six million people UK’s Africa Free Trade initiative. This includes support Safe water and sanitation to three million people to the Tripartite (COMESA-EAC-SADC) through the Food security and livelihoods support to 5.4 million people. TradeMark programmes in east and southern Africa. The Tripartite will showcase two potential projects along the Lamu corridor which will be presented to private sector investors and financiers at a conference in Nairobi HOME DEPARTMENT on 28-29 September 2011. The projects, which are being developed by the Police Numbers Government of Kenya as part of its “Vision 2030”, aim to improve access by road to the port of Lamu and 17. Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for the support the construction of three berths. The UK is not Home Department what the change in the number of planning to finance these projects. As with all projects, police officers has been in England and Wales since the UK recommends that the Government of Kenya May 2010. [70942] conducts a full environmental and social impact assessment and achieves transparency and value for money in Nick Herbert: Police personnel data are collected on procurement. a financial year cycle. Published statistics show that there were 139,110 full-time equivalent police officers in Sudan: Overseas Aid England and Wales as at 31 March 2011. This compares with 143,734 as at 31 March 2010. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent discussions he 22. Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for the has had with officials of the Sudanese Government on Home Department what assessment she has made of the provision of aid for Sudan. [70908] the potential effect of changes in the number of police officers on the level of crime. [70949] Mr Andrew Mitchell: In June this year I met Sudanese Foreign Minister Karti; we discussed how UK aid was Nick Herbert: As the Secretary of State for the Home being used in Sudan, and the responsibilities of the Department, my right hon. Friend the Member for Government of Sudan in the development of their Maidenhead (Mrs May), reminded the House during country. I also discussed these issues with a number of the last round of oral questions, the Home Affairs Sudanese Ministers during my visit to Sudan in May. Select Committee said in February: DFID does not route any funding directly through the “We accept that there is no simple relationship between numbers Government of Sudan. We currently provide most of of police officers and levels of crime.” our funding through large multi-donor pooled funds The Government agree. managed by UN agencies. DFID officials in Khartoum work with the relevant ministries within Government of Sex Offenders Sudan to help them identify and address the development needs of the country. On my visit in May, I also discussed 20. Cathy Jamieson: To ask the Secretary of State for UK aid with ministers from the then Government of the Home Department how many people convicted for Southern Sudan, including President Kiir, now President sexual crimes will no longer be barred from working of the independent Republic of South Sudan. with children following implementation of her The British Government are providing £50 million a legislative proposals. [70946] year for the next four years to help the people of Sudan. Sudan: Politics and Government Lynne Featherstone: The Government are scaling back the proposed Vetting and Barring Scheme to common-sense levels by reducing the scope of regulated activity and Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for limiting barring to those who work in, have worked in International Development what recent assessment he or will work in regulated activity. Child protection has made of the humanitarian situation in Sudan. remains paramount and the most serious offences will [70880] still lead to automatic barring. It is not possible to make the estimate requested, as not all sexual offences will Mr Andrew Mitchell: We are greatly concerned at the result in barring either now or in the revised scheme. humanitarian situation in Sudan. This is particularly acute in Southern Kordofan and Blue Nile State where recent conflict has broken out and where humanitarian access is very limited. There are also significant ongoing JUSTICE humanitarian needs in Abyei and Darfur. We are working closely with the UN agencies and other humanitarian Civil Disorder organisations to press for greater access to those that need help the most and for the protection of civilians. Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice In 2011, the UK has provided £40 million to the UN how many (a) males and (b) females in each age managed Common Humanitarian Fund which channels category who were (i) arrested and (ii) prosecuted for a funds through UN agencies and non-Governmental criminal offence during the recent public disorder in Organisations , of which around 60% will be spent in August 2011 were subject to a (A) parole and (B) Sudan in response to needs on the ground. We expect rehabilitation order at the time the offence was committed, this to help deliver the following results, among others: by police force area. [70976] 1019W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1020W

Mr Blunt: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I can be improved. In addition, the Legal Aid, Sentencing gave on 6 September 2011, Official Report, column 379W. and Punishment of Offenders Bill includes a tightly drawn power to allow the recoverability of the ATE John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for insurance premiums in clinical negligence cases only. Justice (1) how many court reports were prepared in The details will be set out in regulations. connection with people arrested following public As part of the legal aid reforms the Government disorder in August 2011 in England and Wales; [71146] recognise that there may be clinical negligence cases, (2) how many people (a) arrested and (b) charged such as obstetrics cases, with high disbursement costs, following the public disorder in August 2011 were which are currently funded by legal aid but for which it found to be tagged as a result of a previous court order; may be difficult to secure a conditional fee agreement. and if he will make a statement. [71184] We have proposed an ‘exceptional funding’ scheme, which would ensure that individual cases of this type Nick de Bois: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice continue to receive legal aid where failure to do so what proportion of (a) people, (b) women and (c) would be likely to result in a breach of the individual’s young people convicted for offences carried out in the rights to legal aid under the Human Rights Act 1998 or August public disorder had previously served a EU law. In considering whether exceptional funding custodial sentence. [71297] should be granted we will take into account the ability of the client to present their own case, the complexity of Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice is currently publishing the matter, the importance of the issues at stake, and all frequent updates on people being dealt with by the other relevant circumstances. court system in relation to the disturbances on 6-9 August. These reports can be found on the Ministry of Justice Convictions: Burglary website at: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/ad- hoc/index.htm Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the highest number was of previous As the publication notes, the chief statistician will convictions for burglary for an individual convicted of review the quality of data and release further breakdowns an offence of burglary without being sent to prison in as reliable data become available. A more detailed release each of the last three years. [70643] will be published on 15 September containing detailed information on age, gender, offence committed, sentence given and previous criminal history. Mr Blunt: The highest number of previous convictions for burglary, for an individual who was given a sentence other than immediate custody for a burglary offence in Civil Proceedings: Legal Costs 2010, was 58. 38 of these resulted in a custodial sentence. The equivalent figures for 2009 and 2008 were 54 and 56 Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of respectively. The figures relate to three individuals each State for Justice what steps he is taking to ensure that of whom has a criminal history ranging over 40 years. people wishing to pursue clinical negligence claims are The figures relate to separate sentencing occasions at not deterred from doing so because of the potential any time in the offender’s criminal history; where an cost of such litigation; and if he will make a statement. offender was sentenced on the same occasion for several [70728] offences it is the primary offence that has been counted. These figures have been drawn from the police’s Mr Djanogly: As part of our package of reforms to administrative IT system, the PNC, which, as with any civil litigation funding and costs, alongside the removal large scale recording system, is subject to possible errors of recoverability of conditional fee agreements, success with data entry and processing. The figures are provisional fees and after the event insurance premiums, there are a and subject to change as more information is recorded number of reforms to assist claimants in the new regime. by the police. There will be an increase of 10% in damages for non- pecuniary loss such as pain, suffering and loss of amenity. In personal injury cases, including clinical negligence, Departmental Written Questions there will be a cap on the amount of damages that may be taken as a success fee. The cap will be set at 25% of Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for the damages awarded other than those for future care Justice what proportion of written questions tabled to loss. This will help protect claimants’ damages, and is him for answer on a named day did not receive a particularly important in clinical negligence claims, where substantive answer on the day named for answer between the damages for future care and loss can sometimes run (a) 27 May 2010 and 19 July 2011 and (b) 9 March into many millions of pounds. Qualified one way costs 2011 and 19 July 2011. [71131] shifting, which is to be introduced in personal injury including clinical negligence, will protect the vast majority Mr Kenneth Clarke: Between 27 May 2010 and 19 July of claimants from having to pay the defendant’s costs if 2011, I received a total of 706 written questions for they lose. answer on a named day. Of these, 18 received substantive We have listened to particular concerns about the answers after the named day. This equates to 2.5% of funding of expert reports in clinical negligence cases. the total number of questions within the period. Such reports are important to establish whether there is Between 9 March 2011 and 19 July 2011, I received a case for bringing proceedings; but they can be expensive. 276 written questions for answer on a named day. Of We are discussing with the NHS Litigation Authority these, 12 received substantive answers after the named and other stakeholders how the commissioning of reports day, equating to 4.4% of the total for the period. 1021W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1022W

Freedom of Information the qualifications and experience required for interpreters to work in the justice sector. Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Organised Crime if he will make it his policy that all bodies which receive public money be subject to the provisions of the Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Freedom of Information Act 2000. [70795] Justice what progress he has made in implementing the recommendations of the joint thematic review on the Mr Djanogly: The Government are committed to management of gang issues. [70152] extending the scope of the Freedom of Information Act to increase transparency and are currently consulting Mr Kenneth Clarke: This report raised important over 200 bodies about their inclusion, with plans to issues and action has been taken by the Youth Justice further extend this consultation to housing associations. Board and the National Offender Management Service The operation of the Freedom of Information Act will in respect of the recommendations that fell to them. also be assessed through post-legislative scrutiny. Additionally, the Government’s “Open Data Consultation” The Government are currently developing a cross- is proposing and consulting on an extension to the departmental programme of action to tackle gangs and types of organisations to which an Open Data policy gang violence. An Inter-Ministerial Group will report would apply. Further policy in this area will be developed to Parliament in October. in light of the evidence drawn from this work. Prison Accommodation

Interpreters: Training Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the cost is per prison place at each public Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for and private sector prison in the most recent year for Justice what steps his Department is taking to ensure which figures are available. [71006] that interpreters employed in the criminal justice system have professional qualifications. [71011] Mr Blunt: The following tables provide direct and overall average resource cost per place and cost per Mr Blunt: As I announced in a written ministerial prisoner at each public and private sector prison as statement I made to the House on 15 September 2010, published in the National Offender Management Service Official Report, columns 46-47WS, we are reforming annual report 2009-10 under management information the delivery of interpretation and translation services addendum. across the justice sector. This will primarily affect England Cost per place is direct resource expenditure or overall and Wales. resource expressed in terms of the baseline certified A framework agreement with a single supplier was normal accommodation and cost per prisoner is direct signed by the Ministry of Justice on 24 August 2011. resource expenditure or overall resource expressed in This document includes clear quality standards specifying terms of average population.

Male category B Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Dovegate 32,448,310 34,844 32,995 34,492,848 37,039 35,074 Garth 20,604,543 25,375 24,782 32,047,512 39,467 38,546 Gartree 18,005,960 26,133 26,463 26,669,775 38,708 39,196 Grendon (HMP Grendon 15,059,951 25,656 29,101 22,360,208 38,092 43,208 and Springhill) Kingston 6,154,941 30,929 33,285 9,279,202 46,629 50,180 Lowdham Grange 20,224,371 31,114 29,215 22,224,413 34,191 32,105 Rye Hill 18,464,782 30,775 28,284 20,179,188 33,632 30,910 Total 130,962,859 29,310 28,829 167,253,146 37,431 36,818

Male category C Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Acklington 19,068,806 20,157 20,404 30,497,488 32,238 32,632 Ashwell 10,780,794 17,998 53,591 16,094,180 26,868 80,004 Blundeston 13,185,553 27,413 25,393 19,507,171 40,555 37,568 Buckley Hall 9,398,478 26,853 24,657 14,951,989 42,720 39,227 Bullwood Hall 7,054,113 33,591 31,317 10,332,825 49,204 45,873 Bure 6,443,268 88,567 89,906 7,969,440 109,546 111,201 Canterbury 7,549,122 38,713 24,603 11,966,420 61,366 39,000 Channings Wood 15,813,666 22,656 21,847 24,184,057 34,648 33,411 Coldingley 14,018,059 28,377 27,681 21,837,227 44,205 43,121 Dartmoor 15,336,826 24,203 25,211 21,712,259 34,264 35,691 Edmunds Hill 9,532,440 24,792 25,590 14,506,291 37,728 38,943 Erlestoke 10,782,718 22,942 23,180 15,897,306 33,824 34,176 1023W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1024W

Male category C Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Everthorpe 13,043,793 21,631 19,324 21,051,089 34,911 31,187 Featherstone 14,299,431 21,417 21,581 22,392,541 33,539 33,796 Guys Marsh 12,187,978 23,438 21,326 18,878,966 36,306 33,034 Haverigg 14,353,097 23,076 23,472 21,156,734 34,014 34,598 Highpoint 18,374,576 19,972 19,888 29,204,539 31,744 31,609 Kennet 11,745,116 67,115 34,706 22,001,586 125,723 65,013 Lancaster Castle 7,357,275 46,272 31,308 9,698,315 60,996 41,269 Lindholme (+IND) 21,100,924 20,020 19,026 36,330,295 34,469 32,757 Littlehey 16,144,636 23,438 21,923 26,791,175 38,894 36,380 Maidstone 12,092,965 21,403 20,552 19,620,660 34,727 33,345 Moorland 20,999,891 21,000 20,690 37,346,130 37,346 36,794 Mount (The) 16,518,570 22,113 21,668 28,055,903 37,558 36,803 Onley 17,490,925 24,664 25,823 26,434,167 37,275 39,027 Ranby 21,782,913 22,457 20,247 34,549,597 35,618 32,114 Risley 21,636,889 20,607 20,134 33,633,695 32,032 31,297 Shepton Mallet 6,004,573 36,391 31,883 9,110,721 55,216 48,376 Stafford 14,786,961 19,955 20,089 22,840,278 30,824 31,029 Stocken 15,432,545 19,811 19,106 26,465,176 33,973 32,764 Usk 7,538,953 23,559 17,805 14,031,444 43,848 33,139 Verne (The) 11,512,865 20,127 19,533 17,439,123 30,488 29,587 Wayland 17,758,908 18,567 17,839 29,659,455 31,008 29,794 Wealstun 16,978,252 20,918 32,925 27,937,314 34,420 54,177 Wellingborough 13,460,515 21,098 21,150 20,968,143 32,865 32,947 Whatton 18,217,997 23,386 22,161 27,615,422 35,450 33,592 Wolds 9,342,246 29,195 24,197 13,035,950 40,737 33,765 Wymott 24,106,269 22,190 21,281 37,480,091 34,501 33,088 Total 533,232,906 23,031 22,588 843,185,160 36,418 35,718

Male dispersal Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Frankland 40,694,639 51,534 53,551 57,449,576 72,752 75,600 Full Sutton 29,368,371 49,303 50,389 43,992,344 73,854 75,480 Long Lartin 28,034,936 46,300 48,364 40,189,039 66,373 69,331 Wakefield 29,341,355 39,057 39,744 42,122,786 56,070 57,058 Whitemoor 31,579,262 64,360 70,792 44,973,426 91,658 100,818 Total 159,018,563 49,190 51,185 228,727,171 70,753 73,623

Female closed Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Bronzefield 24,401,273 51,817 54,865 26,430,696 56,126 59,428 Downview 10,590,306 29,582 30,838 16,167,334 45,160 47,078 Foston Hall 9,983,242 35,276 43,453 13,941,063 49,262 60,679 Send 8,721,037 30,926 31,935 13,225,766 46,900 48,431 Total 53,695,858 38,522 41,592 69,764,860 50,050 54,039

Female local Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Eastwood Park 11,181,553 34,299 37,035 15,718,419 48,216 52,062 Holloway 21,358,878 40,581 49,701 31,301,642 59,471 72,837 Low Newton 11,722,468 37,333 42,003 16,002,537 50,963 57,340 New Hall 15,818,500 40,174 43,607 22,425,702 56,954 61,821 Styal 15,296,944 33,993 35,852 20,934,776 46,522 49,066 Total 75,378,344 37,500 41,873 106,383,076 52,925 59,096

Female open Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Askham Grange 3,622,748 24,152 30,788 5,544,477 36,963 47,120 East Sutton Park 2,751,212 28,074 31,205 4,306,243 43,941 48,842 Total 6,373,960 25,701 30,967 9,850,720 39,721 47,858 1025W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1026W

Male closed YOI (age 15 to 21) Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Aylesbury 13,584,962 30,805 31,152 21,244,077 48,173 48,716 Brinsford 16,256,727 29,829 31,798 24,465,060 44,890 47,853 Castington 14,754,834 36,887 42,757 20,825,867 52,065 60,350 Deerbolt 15,085,242 29,406 31,620 22,758,332 44,363 47,703 Feltham 33,138,053 43,488 50,689 48,404,304 63,523 74,041 Glen Parva 18,338,450 27,508 23,265 28,685,773 43,029 36,392 Hindley 18,216,153 32,970 59,823 25,482,012 46,121 83,685 Lancaster Farms 16,896,876 35,202 33,153 26,371,549 54,941 51,743 Northallerton 5,742,075 39,062 25,417 8,664,405 58,942 38,352 Portland 15,576,852 25,747 29,257 22,794,383 37,677 42,813 Reading 9,016,129 47,453 36,005 12,660,018 66,632 50,556 Rochester 17,550,300 23,421 25,627 26,857,366 35,842 39,217 Stoke Heath 17,078,907 26,938 29,141 25,132,984 39,642 42,883 Swinfen Hall 14,780,758 24,471 23,811 23,215,043 38,436 37,398 Total 226,016,318 31,006 32,633 337,561,174 46,308 48,738

Male YOI young people (age 15 to 17) Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Ashfield 23,141,092 56,858 81,292 23,309,981 57,273 81,885 Cookham Wood 8,935,386 61,623 95,822 11,867,847 81,847 127,269 Huntercombe 13,519,968 37,555 58,150 19,059,646 52,943 81,977 Warren Hill 9,896,726 44,580 55,496 13,552,415 61,047 75,995 Werrington 7,013,541 43,835 53,200 9,695,774 60,599 73,546 Wetherby 15,283,617 37,460 46,302 22,006,290 53,937 66,669 Total 77,790,329 45,705 62,199 99,491,953 58,456 79,551

Male local Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Altcourse 46,438,070 58,486 35,883 49,169,546 61,926 37,993 Bedford 11,890,253 36,812 25,041 17,788,224 55,072 37,462 Belmarsh 39,859,998 49,825 45,589 60,600,103 75,750 69,310 Birmingham 29,659,870 26,745 20,585 45,802,798 41,301 31,789 Bristol 15,480,815 36,511 25,465 22,249,958 52,476 36,600 Brixton 20,587,169 33,972 26,958 29,421,515 48,550 38,527 Bullingdon 22,490,458 25,586 20,589 36,710,197 41,764 33,607 Cardiff 16,189,470 29,543 20,055 29,663,937 54,131 36,747 Chelmsford 17,654,734 31,868 26,149 26,466,755 47,774 39,200 Doncaster 23,496,327 30,475 21,018 33,875,362 43,937 30,302 Dorchester 7,836,901 54,048 33,647 10,649,537 73,445 45,723 Durham 23,035,128 38,301 23,902 33,621,757 55,904 34,886 Exeter 13,135,508 41,568 25,080 18,705,527 59,195 35,715 Forest Bank 31,562,625 36,051 26,300 35,171,441 40,173 29,307 Gloucester 9,222,434 40,989 30,538 12,814,607 56,954 42,432 Highdown 24,121,005 24,145 22,293 41,506,799 41,548 38,361 Holme House 22,388,805 25,898 23,115 35,784,867 41,394 36,946 Hull 21,723,433 30,046 21,628 34,326,617 47,478 34,176 Leeds 24,321,857 29,339 21,324 37,730,512 45,513 33,080 Leicester 9,440,244 44,954 26,443 13,293,823 63,304 37,238 Lewes 16,313,366 26,185 25,496 24,599,257 39,485 38,446 Lincoln 15,496,171 34,590 23,137 23,031,164 51,409 34,388 Liverpool 26,051,023 21,965 19,691 39,507,150 33,311 29,862 Manchester 35,300,991 36,619 28,774 52,249,605 54,201 42,589 Norwich 16,563,142 30,266 25,985 25,970,579 47,457 40,743 Nottingham 17,900,765 46,718 32,453 26,308,934 68,662 47,697 Parc 45,393,240 54,169 38,660 47,744,362 56,974 40,662 Pentonville 31,337,256 34,295 26,681 45,719,507 50,035 38,927 Peterborough 31,292,633 37,253 32,937 34,828,071 41,462 36,658 Preston 19,562,006 43,183 25,856 27,300,078 60,265 36,083 Shrewsbury 8,672,656 47,134 28,789 12,150,980 66,038 40,335 Swansea 9,212,630 37,148 23,206 15,843,749 63,886 39,909 Wandsworth 36,199,901 32,753 21,892 52,939,638 47,898 32,015 Winchester 15,657,238 31,377 22,632 23,250,124 46,593 33,607 1027W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1028W

Male local Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Woodhill 32,723,769 48,817 40,226 50,579,248 75,454 62,175 Wormwood Scrubs 27,951,482 23,768 21,934 45,345,893 38,559 35,584 Total 816,163,373 34,473 26,194 1,172,722,221 49,534 37,637

Male open Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Ford 8,612,013 15,461 15,963 15,104,764 27,118 27,998 Hollesley Bay 6,934,500 20,100 20,613 11,273,343 32,676 33,510 Kirkham 13,515,299 22,907 23,123 20,443,844 34,651 34,977 Leyhill 10,400,365 19,861 20,877 16,392,988 31,304 32,907 North Sea Camp 5,908,156 18,579 19,366 8,956,643 28,166 29,358 Sudbury 9,111,329 15,682 15,903 14,846,122 25,553 25,913 Total 54,481,662 18,692 19,207 87,017,705 29,855 30,677

Male open YOI Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Thorn Cross 8,766,128 27,224 30,473 13,233,592 41,098 46,003 Total 8,766,128 27,224 30,473 13,233,592 41,098 46,003

Semi open Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Blantyre House 3,081,756 25,260 25,771 4,753,287 38,961 39,749 Drake Hall 8,209,835 26,063 29,444 11,782,750 37,406 42,257 Kirklevington Grange 5,810,431 20,532 21,434 8,981,585 31,737 33,132 Latchmere House 4,636,863 22,400 23,281 7,199,983 34,783 36,151 Morton Hall 8,625,373 22,004 24,839 12,930,194 32,985 37,236 Total 30,364,258 23,021 24,972 45,647,798 34,608 37,542

Cluster Direct resource Overall resource Cost per Establishment name expenditure Cost per place Cost per prisoner expenditure Cost per place prisoner

Brockhill/Hewell 28,445,145 24,250 20,558 46,545,585 39,681 33,639 Grange/Blakenhurst Isle of Sheppey— 50,732,398 23,306 22,559 83,436,429 38,331 37,102 Central Services IOW Cluster 39,820,487 25,537 23,952 61,669,948 39,549 37,095 Total 118,998,031 24,240 22,474 191,651,961 39,040 36,195 Notes: 1. Displayed figures are subject to rounding. 2. Establishments are categorised in these tables by their main role as at the end of 2009-10. Establishments that have more than one role have been placed in the category that represents the primary or dominant function of the prison. For this reason, performance of prisons within a category cannot necessarilybe compared on a like for like basis. 3. There are two unit cost measurements. The ‘direct resource expenditure’ includes costs met locally by the establishments. The ‘overall cost’ includes prison- related overheads met centrally by NOMS, for example, property costs (including depreciation and cost of capital), major maintenance, prisoner escort and custody service (relates to transporting prisoners) and central HQ overheads. 4. YOI refers to young offender institutions. 5. Data for Elmley, Standford Hill and Swaleside are reported under the Sheppey cluster. Similarly, data for Blakenhurst, Brockhill and Hewell Grange is reported together as a cluster. Data for Parkhurst, Camp Hill and Albany are reported under the Isle of Wight cluster. 6. Cookham Wood changed from a female closed prison to a male juvenile prison in October 2007. Data for 2009-10 is shown under the category male juvenile. 7. Dover and Haslar are not included as they are immigration removal centres operating under Detention Centre Rules 2001. 8. Lindholme includes Lindholme IDC. It is a split site, part category C training prison and part immigration detention centre. 9. The following expenditure is not included: A one-off impairment charge of £525.05 million as a result of the revaluation of land and buildings. Operation Safeguard (use of police cells). Cost of capital on assets in the course of construction (£22.47 million). Project, operating and commissioning costs totalling £2.71 million at HMPYOI Isis, as the establishment was not opened during the course of year. 10. Private prisons and public prisons are included. The unit costs are not directly comparable because of different methods of financing. 11. For certain prisons the unit cost is not typical, because they are in the process of change (e.g. Bure was building up capacity during the year).

Prisoner Escapes to a prison in 1948. Table 1 shows the annual abscond figures, which are available only from 1997. Andrew Griffiths: To ask the Secretary of State for The annual number of absconds has reduced significantly Justice which prisoners have absconded from HMP over the past 14 years. Of those prisoners that abscond, Sudbury since it opened. [71365] the majority are quickly recaptured, returned to closed conditions and referred to the police for prosecution. Mr Blunt: HMP Sudbury, originally built as a hospital for the US air force for the D-day landings, was converted 1029W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1030W

Table 1: Breakdown of total absconds from HMP Sudbury since total number of 1,339 named day PQs answered between 1997-98 by financial year May 2010 and July 2011, 454 did not receive a substantive Number of absconds reply on the date stipulated by the Member. The figures 1997-98 81 for March to July 2011 are 553 total answers of which 1998-99 75 250 did not receive a substantive reply on the date 1999-2000 63 specified. 2000-01 69 The figures have been drawn from the Department’s 2001-02 81 database which, as with any large scale recording system, 2002-03 68 is subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. 2003-04 75 The Government have committed to providing the 2004-05 77 Procedure Committee with information relating to written 2005-06 76 parliamentary question performance on a sessional basis 2006-07 78 and will provide full information to the Committee at 2007-08 55 the end of the session. Statistics relating to Government 2008-09 23 Department’s performance for the 2009/10 parliamentary 2009-10 29 session were previously provided to the committee and 2010-11 30 are available on the Parliament website. Note: These figures have been drawn from live administrative data systems Employers’ Liability which may be amended at any time. Although care is taken when processing and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to improve the employability skills of the UK labour BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS market. [71009] Citizens’ Advice Bureaux Mr Hayes: Employability skills are essential to ensure that employers can recruit the talent they need to enable Mr Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for sustainable economic growth, social mobility and to Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking help build the big society. Employability skills vary by to support citizens advice bureaux. [68780] the age of a person, the point at which they leave the education system and the requirements of employers in Mr Davey: The Government recognise the important different sectors. There are a number of Government work done by citizens advice bureaux. That is why BIS programmes to support employability. As part of our is continuing to provide core funding for citizens advice, skills strategy, aimed mainly at those aged 19 and over, the national umbrella organisation for the Citizens Advice the Government are funding literacy and numeracy Service. Indeed, we are proposing increasing our support courses for those adults who lack these basic skills. We of it to help it reinforce its role at the heart of the plan to maximise the economic and personal returns of consumer landscape. this training following a review of basic skills provision currently under way, and we will be taking the necessary The Department has also agreed to continue funding steps to make it more effective. Functional skills of the debt advice programme this year until responsibility qualifications in English, mathematics and information for this is taken on by the Money Advice Service in and communications technology will become mandatory April 2012. We have committed another £27 million to components of all apprenticeships frameworks by this and much of this is delivered by bureaux. September 2012 replacing key skills as part of the However, I also recognise that many bureaux are programme. Unemployed people on active benefits can facing a challenging time at the moment and BIS is access skills training fully funded by the Skills Funding currently considering this issue with other interested Agency to improve relevant labour market skills, including departments, working with the voluntary advice sector. their employability skills, where this is appropriate to help them get sustainable employment. Departmental Written Questions The recent Higher Education White Paper outlined proposals that will deliver a new focus on graduate Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for employability. All universities have now set out in Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of employability statements the range of support they written questions tabled to him for answer on a named provide to help students prepare for employment. We day did not receive a substantive answer on the day are also considering how wider employability skills can named for answer between (a) 27 May 2010 and 19 be further addressed through the Education and Skills July 2011 and (b) 9 March 2011 and 19 July 2011. Growth Review. [71123]

Mr Davey: The Department aims to answer named Higher Education: Finance day questions on the date specified by the Member. Where it is not possible to provide a full answer within Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, the usual deadline, the Department believes it will usually Innovation and Skills how much funding each higher be preferable to provide an answer a few days late than education institution received from endowments, including to provide an incomplete answer. Figures are recorded alumni giving, in each of the last three years; and if he by the Department on a monthly basis and from the will make a statement. [69051] 1031W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1032W

Mr Willetts: The data we hold centrally shows the The Government’s matched funding for voluntary total amount of income each HEI receives each year in giving scheme uses £200 million of Government funding new endowments given in that year, and income received as a lever to generate £400 million of additional donations, on existing endowments already invested. It also shows including from alumni, to universities over three academic the total value of endowments held by each HEI each years from 2008-09 to 2010-11. The scheme is on track academic year to 31 July 2008, 2009 and 2010. The table to achieve the target of an additional £400 million in showing this data for the three most recent years available private donations by the end of academic year 2010-11. will be placed in the Libraries of the House. These Higher Education: York figures are consistent with the published accounts for all HEIs. It should be noted that these published accounts do not include donations received by university colleges Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, (e.g. Oxford and Cambridge colleges). Innovation and Skills how many UK (a) undergraduate and (b) postgraduate students there were at the (i) Further detail on the income HEIs receive from university of York and (ii) university of York St John in alumni can be found in the annual Ross-CASE survey, each year since 1996-97. [71436] available online at: http://www.rosscasesurvey.org.uk/ Mr Willetts: The latest available data from the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) is shown in the These figures do include donations given to university table. Figures for the 2010/11 academic year will be colleges. available in January 2012.

UK-domiciled enrolments1 at the university of York and York St John university by level of study, academic years 1996/97 to 2009/10 Academic year University of York York St John university Postgraduate Undergraduate Postgraduate Undergraduate

1996/97 1,265 4,965 290 3,620 1997/98 1,245 5,340 390 3,465 1998/99 1,240 5,750 415 3,480 1999/2000 1,390 5,830 540 3,415 2000/01 1,430 6,145 525 3,660 2001/02 1,625 6,725 660 3,915 2002/03 1,710 6,965 810 4,465 2003/04 1,975 7,320 775 4,280 2004/05 1,920 7,600 610 4,385 2005/06 2,040 8,215 705 5,110 2006/07 1,785 8,080 730 4,875 2007/08 1,880 8,030 615 4,825 2008/09 2,100 8,105 620 5,270 2009/10 2,240 9,080 625 4,540

1 Enrolments are the total number of students regardless of their year of study. Note: Figures are based on a snapshot at 1 December and have been rounded to the nearest five. Figures cover enrolments on both full-time and part-time courses. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

Land Registry: Applications can properly be registered as proprietor and completes the application, it might not be clear whether he or she Mr Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for has a “documentary title” (the land involved falling Business, Innovation and Skills how many applications within the extent covered by the title deeds) or a “possessory for adverse possession of plots of land were made to title” (the land falling outside the title deeds but the the Land Registry in each of the last 10 years; and how applicant having acquired title by virtue of adverse many such applications were successful. [70891] possession). Such an application may well not be recorded as being an adverse possession application. Mr Davey: Applications for registration as the owner of land on the basis of adverse possession can be Land Registry does have statistics for the second type divided into two types. First, there are those where the of application for the financial years 2008-09, 2009-10 land concerned is unregistered and the application is to and 2010-11: these show that the number of successful register the squatter as the first “registered proprietor” applications of this type in these years were 1,111, 1,059 (in other words, the first registered owner). Secondly, and 868 respectively. those where the land has already been registered and Mr Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for the application is to register the squatter as the new Business, Innovation and Skills how many applications registered proprietor. for adverse possession of plots of land made to the Land Registry does not have reliable statistics for the Land Registry in each of the last 10 years were found first type of application. One of the main reasons for to be fraudulent. [70892] this is that it is not unusual for these “first registration applications” to be made on more than one basis. For Mr Davey: All applications for adverse possession example, the title deeds may not be entirely clear, and made to Land Registry are considered on their merits. so, while Land Registry is satisfied that the applicant Applications either succeed or fail. There are no figures 1033W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1034W kept on why applications fail and we are therefore Mr Davey: Officials from the Department for Business unable to provide the figures requested. Innovation and Skills have regular discussion with officials from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Mr Whittingdale: To ask the Secretary of State for Affairs, Rural Communities Policy Unit, the most recent Business, Innovation and Skills how many prosecutions of which were on 11 and 12 July 2011. under the Fraud Act were brought by the Land Registry as a result of dishonest statements being made Union Modernisation Fund by applicants for adverse possession in each of the last 10 years. [70893] Priti Patel: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Davey: There have been no prosecutions under Innovation and Skills whether funding provided by the the Fraud Act made by Land Registry as a result of Union Modernisation Fund has been used in projects dishonest statements made by applicants for adverse to purchase services from the Campaign Company. possession in the last 10 years. [71039] Post Offices: Bank Services Mr Davey: Yes. The Campaign Company area communications consultancy who specialise in engagement Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for with individuals and groups who are often less heard of Business, Innovation and Skills what his policy is on or are seen as hard to reach. increasing (a) account access through post offices and The company have worked with several of the trade (b) awareness of account access through post offices. unions who have undertaken Union Modernisation Fund [70776] (UMF) projects and they are currently working with the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers Mr Davey: The Government have been clear that we (USDAW), GMB and Bakers Food and Allied Workers wish to see a situation where all UK current accounts Union (BFAWU) to design communications and training are accessible through the post office network. However, and development solutions targeted at vulnerable workers, it is ultimately a commercial decision for those banks which is the focus of the UMF round three projects. that do not currently extend this service to their customers as to whether they put these arrangements in place with Post Office Ltd (POL). Waste Disposal: VAT The promotion of products and services is an operational matter, and is therefore the responsibility of senior Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for management at Post Office Ltd. Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with his ministerial colleagues on allowing local Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities to undertake commercial waste collections Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking free of VAT; and what account he took of the potential to increase public awareness of access to bank accounts effects on private small and medium-sized enterprises at post offices. [71158] dealing with commercial waste collection during the decision-making process. [71064] Mr Davey: This Government have been clear that we wish to see a situation where all UK current accounts Mr Gauke: I have been asked to reply. are accessible through the post office network, providing The issue is not one of competition law, but instead a convenient place for people to access their cash, one of VAT law. As such, this was an operational matter particularly where a bank branch is not available. and the decision was made by HMRC officials in response The promotion of products and services that are to a legal challenge against the taxation of local authority provided at post offices is an operational matter and is commercial waste collection services. Because of this, it therefore the responsibility of senior management at was not possible to consult more widely. Post Office Ltd. The Environmental Services Association have made representations to HMRC and there is ongoing dialogue Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for about the VAT treatment of commercial waste collection. Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has had with representatives of (a) Santander and (b) HSBC on customer access to bank accounts at post offices. [71159] CABINET OFFICE Mr Davey: This Government have been clear that we wish to see a situation where all UK current accounts Non-Departmental Public Bodies are accessible through the post office network. Ministers and officials have been in regular contact with HSBC and Santander on this subject. Richard Graham: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many non-departmental public bodies have Rural Communities Policy Unit been (a) closed or disbanded and (b) established since June 2010; and if he will make a statement. [70395] Julian Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether officials of his Miss McIntosh: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Department have had recent discussions with the Rural Office what his most recent estimate is of the number Communities Policy Unit in the Department for of arm’s length bodies operating in Government; and if Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. [67149] he will make a statement. [70865] 1035W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1036W

Mr Maude: Following the Public Bodies Review, a child and each satisfies the entitlement conditions, the 49 arm’s length bodies have been abolished. The law allows only one of them to receive the payment. The Government’s reforms are expected to bring about an Government’s view is that financial support should be overall decrease of approximately 250 arm’s length paid to the person with the main responsibility for the bodies. The Cabinet Office publishes a list of non- child. departmental public bodies, and their parent Departments, in its publication ‘Public Bodies’. The latest report Child Tax Credit provides this information up to 31 March 2009. More recent data will be published in due course, and will Mr Bain: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer take into account changes that have occurred due to the how many recipients of the childcare element of the Public Bodies Review, and proposed legislation. child tax credit in each (a) parliamentary constituency and (b) local authority area have had their level of Public Sector: Procurement credits reduced in the 2011-12 financial year. [71022]

Tom Greatrex: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr Gauke: The requested information is not available. Office (1) when the last SME Product Surgery took place; [70066] Coastal Communities Fund (2) when he expects the next SME Product Surgery to be held. [70067] Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues Mr Maude: The most recent Product Surgery took on the effect on the Coastal Communities Fund of his place on 19 July 2011 as the final stage of the Innovation proposals for machine games duty. [71118] Launch Pad process. The Home Office is planning an SME Product Surgery on 24 October 2011. Justine Greening: Treasury Ministers and officials meet with a wide range of organisations and individuals in the public and private sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. As was the case with previous TREASURY administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to Tax Avoidance provide details of all such discussions. Corporation Tax Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington of 29 July 2011, Official Report, Craig Whittaker: To ask the Chancellor of the columns 819-820W, on tax avoidance, if he will require Exchequer what steps HM Revenue and Customs has HM Revenue and Customs to outline its budget for tax taken to deal with any future failures in the online compliance in each year of the spending review period. system for filing corporation tax returns. [70323] [70911] Mr Gauke: There have been no recent failures in the Mr Gauke: We do not plan to require HMRC to HM Revenue and Customs’ online service for filing break down their funding in this way as overall funding Company Tax Returns. There is, however, a live issue in for HMRC’s compliance activity is not broken down or that the service will not be updated until October 2011 allocated in this way. Many aspects of its activity—from to take account of the rate reductions that took effect policy making, through support and education, to audits when the Finance Act received Royal Assent on 19 July and investigations—contribute to delivering increased 2011. This is to avoid the risk of service disruption from compliance from error through to evasion as well as implementing a large number of changes to HM Revenue countering criminal attacks and avoidance. and Customs’ online systems at the same time. The Department is working, as a matter of high priority, to British Sky Broadcasting reduce the level of risk so that any future changes can be implemented without unnecessary delay for companies Luciana Berger: To ask the Chancellor of the that want to file their Company Tax Returns early. Exchequer how much his Department has spent on subscriptions to Sky TV since May 2010. [67563] Craig Whittaker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the financial effects on Justine Greening: The Department has spent £20,450 HM Revenue and Customs of the inability of businesses on subscriptions on Sky TV since May 2010. to submit their corporation tax returns online due to systems failures. [70324] Child Benefit Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs’ online service Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the for filing Company Tax Returns will not be updated Exchequer if he will allow child benefit payments to be until October 2011 to take account of the rate reductions made to both parents where parental responsibility is that took effect when the Finance Act received Royal shared after separation; and if he will make a Assent on 19 July 2011. This only affects filing by statement. [70729] companies with accounting periods that end after 31 March 2011, which have a tax liability or are expecting a Justine Greening: Child benefit provides an element repayment, and which wish to file even though they are of support to the vast majority of families for their not required to do so until after 31 March 2012. Payments children. Where more than one person is responsible for can be made by such companies at any time and are not 1037W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1038W affected. If such a company has an urgent need to file “The Financial Services Authority (FSA) will, in due course, for a repayment, it can, as advertised on HM Revenue be publishing a statement of its findings in relation to CFM’s role and Customs’ website, contact its Corporation Tax regarding the Arch Cru funds”. Office for further advice. The FSA is continuing to look at the issues surrounding the Arch Cru funds, and it would not be appropriate to Craig Whittaker: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer comment before this work is completed. what mechanisms have been established between the The (FSA) is responsible for the regulation of financial central office and local offices of HM Revenue and services firms and operates independently from Government Customs to (a) share information on complaints and under the powers given to it in the Financial Services (b) avoid inconsistencies in information provided to and Markets Act 2000. HM Treasury sets the legal local businesses on corporation tax returns. [70325] framework for the regulation of financial services, but does not have investigative or prosecuting powers of its Mr Gauke: Since 2007, HM Revenue and Customs own. has had a national complaints database used by all business areas to log complaints received. It is used to Departmental Air Travel gather management information and provide a strategic view of complaints performance at both business area John Mann: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and departmental level. It also enables HM Revenue on what occasions he has flown on official business (a) and Customs to identify poor customer service and by budget airline and (b) in economy class in the last processes that need to be improved. Feedback is also 12 months. [67910] provided by the Adjudicator and the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. Justine Greening: Details of ministerial travel are Information for companies about Company Tax Returns published quarterly on the Treasury website: is on HM Revenue and Customs’ website. To avoid http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/minister_hospitality.htm inconsistencies, central guidance is issued to staff in All travel is undertaken in accordance with the Ministerial local offices as necessary about how to respond to Code. common queries. Environment Protection: Taxation Credit Cards: Fees and Charges Caroline Lucas: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the likely level Exchequer (1) if he will make an assessment of the of revenue which will arise from the introduction of a effects of debit card surcharges on consumer spending; carbon floor price up to 2020. [70314] and if he will make a statement; [71292] (2) if he will bring forward proposals to amend the Justine Greening [holding answer 7 September 2011]: Payment Services Regulation to ban debit card Budget 2011 set out the estimated revenue from the surcharges; and if he will make a statement; [71295] carbon price floor up to 2015-16. (3) what representations he has received from consumer Revenues are dependent on the traded price of carbon organisations on the practice of travel companies charging in the EU Emissions Trading System. consumers for using debit cards online; and if he will The Office for Budget Responsibility has recently make a statement. [71296] made an assessment of long-term revenue sustainability. This includes combined revenues from the carbon price Mr Hoban: The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) published floor and the EU Emissions Trading System. This is a report on 28 June 2011 on card surcharges following a available on page 99 in their “Fiscal sustainability report”, super-complaint from Which?. The Government have July 2011, available online at: received representations from Which? asking it to implement http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/pubs/ the OFT’s recommendations quickly. The Government FSR2011.pdf are considering the OFT’s recommendations and will respond in due course. Equitable Life Payment Scheme

Cru Investment Management: Compensation Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what representations he has received in support of the payment of compensation to Equitable Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Chancellor of the Life policyholders who took out policies before 1992; Exchequer what recent representations he has received and if he will make a statement. [71294] from those who invested in Arch Cru funds on the compensation package which is being made available; Mr Hoban: In her report, the parliamentary ombudsman and if he will make a statement. [70726] recommended that the aim of the scheme should be “to put those people who suffered a relative loss back into the Mr Hoban: The Treasury has received representations position that they would have been in had maladministration not on this issue from a range of stakeholders, but it is not occurred”. the Government’s practice to disclose details of all such The first returns that would have been different if representations. maladministration had not occurred were those of 1991, In relation to Arch Cru funds, Capita Financial Managers which would not have influenced policyholders’ decisions Ltd (CFM) announced that until September 1992. Therefore, with profits annuitants 1039W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1040W who bought their policies before September 1992 did so The data published comply with the agreed reporting before maladministration could have affected their requirements for central Government Departments. The investment decision. most recent published information shows that HMT The Government listened to a range of representation responded to 98% of requests within the statutory from interested parties on this and other issues in deadline. Of these, 87% of cases were replied to within advance of announcing details of the scheme. We are 20 working days and in 11% of cases the time to reply now in the delivery stage of the scheme and the focus is was extended. upon making payments to the defined eligible population. Hotels Financial Services: USA Gavin Williamson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the cost to the public purse was of (a) Richard Fuller: To ask the Chancellor of the four star, (b) five star and (c) other hotel accommodation Exchequer whether his Department expects to provide for (i) staff, (ii) Ministers and (iii) special advisers in his assistance to the US Department of Justice in its Department between (A) November 1999 and June criminal investigation of the actions of investment 2001, (B) May 2002 and June 2007 and (C) June 2007 banking firms. [71072] and January 2008. [68374] Mr Hoban: The setting of LIBOR by the British Justine Greening: HM Treasury does not limit bookings Banking Association (BBA) and the contributions made by star rating but rather by a cap on cost per night. by banks to that process are not regulated activities Accordingly, no records of star ratings is kept. It has under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000. not been possible to obtain the information for past The mechanisms used by the BBA to detect manipulation bookings as the Department’s travel supplier during of LIBOR are a matter for the BBA. these periods is no longer trading. Any assistance that might be given to the US Department of Justice is a matter for the relevant investigatory Members: Correspondence authorities in the UK, which include the Financial Services Authority with respect to the conduct of regulated Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Chancellor of the firms. Exchequer when he intends to reply to the letter from As part of its role in helping establish the LIBOR the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton of 13 rate, the BBA may also provide information to the July 2011 with regard to Mrs Rahman. [70812] Department of Justice, if requested. Justine Greening: HM Revenue and Customs’ Chief Freedom of Information Executive’s Office wrote to the right hon. Member on 7 September 2011 on the Economic Secretary’s behalf. Chris Leslie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer National Insurance Contributions: New Businesses (1) how many requests made to his Department under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 since 25 May 2010 have been subject to an extension beyond the Nic Dakin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer statutory 20 working days (a) where a public interest whether he has any plans to extend the national balance assessment was carried out that exceeded an insurance contributions holiday. [69614] additional 30 working days before a decision was taken and (b) where a public balance assessment was carried Mr Gauke [holding answer 7 September 2011]: The out which had exceeded an additional 30 working days policy is designed to support new businesses in parts of and where no decision had been reached by 1 the country that are most reliant on the public sector, assisting them in their first year by reducing the costs of September 2011; [70512] hiring staff and improving the likelihood of business (2) how many requests made to his Department survival. under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 since 25 May 2010 have been subject to an extension beyond the The Government have considered the case for extending statutory 20 working days for a response while a public the NICs holiday but believes the best use of public interest balance assessment was made; and what the funds at this time is to keep the NICs holiday as a average time to elapse between the date of extension targeted scheme for those areas in most need of employment and the date of the decision on the request has been support. and the average time of this time extension before a Nic Dakin: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer decision was reached; [70513] how many businesses in Scunthorpe constituency have (3) how many and what proportion of requests made benefited from the national insurance contribution to his Department under the Freedom of Information holiday since its introduction. [69615] Act 2000 since 25 May 2010 have not been answered within 20 working days. [70514] Mr Gauke [holding answer 7 September 2011]: As of 15 August, HMRC has received five successful applications Justine Greening [holding answer 7 September 2011]: from businesses in Scunthorpe constituency. Statistics on the Treasury’s performance under the Freedom of Information Act are available from the House Library Pensions: Public Sector and published by the Ministry of Justice. The most recent publication is available at: Rachel Reeves: To ask the Chancellor of the http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/statistics-and-data/foi/ Exchequer what the opt out rates for public sector implementation.htm pensions were in each year from 2006 to 2010. [71149] 1041W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1042W

Danny Alexander: This information is not held centrally. in demand for air travel; and what the effects of such Departments responsible for the pension schemes hold measures would be using the same assumptions, but data on scheme membership. without abolition of air passenger duty. [68155]

Personal Financial Information Justine Greening: Under the terms of the Chicago convention, it is illegal to tax fuel for international Mr Weir: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) flights. Accordingly the Government have not made an what sanctions apply to UK clearing banks which seek estimate of the revenue that would result from taxation to elicit and archive inappropriate personal financial of fuel in the manner suggested. information unrelated to an Adult with Incapacity The UK already imposes air passenger duty on airlines from guardians and deputies when registering the for passengers that they carry and therefore no estimate relevant court’s order of appointment; [71250] of imposing a 20% tax on airfares has been made. (2) if he will instruct the Financial Services Authority to review the level and extent of personal financial Taxation: Business information unrelated to an Adult with Incapacity requested by UK clearing banks from guardians and deputies Jesse Norman: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when seeking to register the relevant court’s order of what discussions (a) he and (b) the Exchequer Secretary appointment. [71249] to the Treasury has had with the Chief Executive of HM Revenue and Customs on the appropriateness of Mr Hoban: It is important that banks have procedures discussion and negotiation in the settlement of tax in place to verify both the identity of their customers, liabilities. [62333] and the identity of people acting as guardians and deputies on behalf of their customers. Identity checks Mr Gauke: Treasury Ministers and officials have make it more difficult for fraud to occur, and so help to frequent discussions with the chief executive of HM protect consumers. The Financial Services Authority Revenue and Customs as part of the process of policy (FSA) does not have specific rules on the procedures development and delivery. As was the case with previous banks should take to verify identity, though the Government Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to recognise that measures taken need to be proportionate provide details of all such discussions. to the risks posed, as well as being effective. If a guardian or deputy believes a bank has asked Taxation: Gambling them to provide personal financial information that they consider to be inappropriate, they should consider Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer complaining to the bank. If they complain and are whether his proposals for taxation of offshore unhappy with the outcome, they can refer their complaint gambling companies will ensure (a) that such to the Financial Ombudsman Service. companies pay an equivalent rate of tax to land-based companies offering gambling services to customers in Taxation the UK and (b) that collection of such taxes is fully enforceable. [71236] Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many changes to taxation policy he has made Justine Greening: On 18 July 2011, Official Report, since the 2011 Budget; and whether a tax information column 62WS, the Government announced their intention and impact note was published for each change. [71021] to review the taxation regime for remote gambling, looking at the case for taxing operators on the basis of Mr Gauke: Tax information and impact notes (TIINs) customer location. relating to changes announced at Budget 2011 were As part of the review, the Government are identifying published in the ‘Overview of tax legislation and rates’ options for reform and are seeking further input from document, available on the HM Treasury website. stakeholders regarding the proposals. No decisions have As set out in ‘The new approach to tax policy making: been taken. a response to the Consultation’, the Government will publish a TIIN at the point at which detailed policy Taxation: Gaming Machines design is settled. In most cases, this will be the point at which draft legislation is published for scrutiny by interested parties. Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer which organisations officials of his Department have TIINs to accompany the three changes that have met as part of the consultation on reform of the been announced since the Budget are published in line taxation of gaming machines through the introduction with this approach. of machine games duty. [71119]

Taxation: Aviation Justine Greening: Treasury Ministers and officials meet with a wide range of organisations and individuals Mr Gyimah: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the public and private sectors as part of the usual what estimate he has made of the combined effects on policymaking process. As was the case with previous Exchequer revenue in a full year of taxing aviation fuel Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to at the same rate as petrol for cars, imposing a 20 per provide details of all such discussions. A summary of cent. tax on air fares for aircraft departing UK airports responses to the consultation will be published in the and abolishing air passenger duty, assuming no change autumn. 1043W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1044W

Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many requests his Department has received for what estimate he has made of the (a) annual cost to the meetings relation to the proposals for machine games Exchequer (i) before and (ii) after taking account of duty; and how many meetings have taken place. [71122] consequent changes in other tax receipts and (b) effects on employment of reducing value added tax from 20 Justine Greening: Treasury Ministers and officials per cent. to five per cent. on the repair, maintenance meet with a wide range of organisations and individuals and improvement of residential property. [70788] in the public and private sectors as part of the usual policymaking process. As was the case with previous Mr Gauke: The cost of reducing VAT from 20% to Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to 5% on repair, maintenance and improvement of residential provide details of all such discussions. property, in the absence of behavioural change, is tentatively estimated to be in the region of £2.2 billion. Mr Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer No estimate has been made on the effect on employment for what reason the public consultation period for the from reducing value added tax on the repair, maintenance introduction of machine games duty was less than 12 and improvement of residential property. weeks. [71186] VAT: Channel Islands Justine Greening: The response time was shorter than 12 weeks to allow for proper consideration of all consultation responses ahead of the publication of a Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the second draft of the legislation in the autumn. Exchequer what assessment he has made of the potential effects of the provision of low value consignment relief To ensure that stakeholders were able to contribute as on entertainment products sold by mail order from the fully as possible to the consultation, HMT and HMRC Channel Islands on independent high street entertainment held meetings with industry groups and individual stores. [70987] companies. Mr Gauke: We have not performed an assessment but Taxation: Isle of Man we are aware of the impact on high street stores, and the Exchequer. The Treasury is currently considering further Mr Hanson: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer measures to stem the impact of LVCR. what the estimated value was of the Isle of Man’s share of joint indirect tax revenues in each year until 2015 Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the (a) when the 2009 formula was agreed between the Isle Exchequer whether he plans to remove low value of Man and HM Treasury, (b) after the Isle of Man consignment relief for (a) music and (b) other changed the way that it measured its national income in entertainment products sold by mail order from the 2010 and (c) under the revised formula announced on Channel Islands. [70989] 18 July 2011. [69524] Mr Gauke: The Government have not finalised their Mr Gauke: When the revenue sharing formula was plans for changes to the low value consignment relief revised in 2009, the UK’s estimate of the Isle of Man’s for goods imported from the Channel Islands at this share of joint indirect tax revenues was £230 million for time but is reviewing options. 2011-12 and £245 million for 2012-13. Estimates were not made for subsequent years. VAT: Entertainments After the 2010 change to the methodology for measuring the Isle of Man’s national income the estimate of its Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the share for 2011-12 was £334 million and for 2012-13 Exchequer what discussions he has had with (a) the £365 million. Estimates were not made for subsequent European Commission, (b) multiple retailers and (c) years. independent stores on the effects of low value consignment Under the agreement announced on 18 July 2011 the relief on (i) music and (ii) the general entertainment Isle of Man will receive £272 million for 2011-12 and industry. [70988] £252 million for 2012-13 (including transitional payments of £45 million and a further £25 million respectively). Mr Gauke: The Government have been in contact The current estimate for the isle of Man’s share, of joint with the European Commission to discuss their options revenues for 2013-14 is £270 million. We do not have an to restrict the low value consignment relief and has estimate for the year 2014-15. received representations from a number of trade sectors affected by LVCR. Ministers are now reviewing what VAT options are open to the Government to make further changes to LVCR. Steve Rotheram: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effect VAT: Imports of the increase in the rate of VAT on households in each parliamentary constituency. [70740] Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of the revenue Mr Gauke: Data to make an assessment of the effect foregone by the Exchequer due to the provision of low of the increase in the rate of VAT on households in each value consignment relief in each of the last five years. parliamentary constituency are not available. [70990] 1045W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1046W

Mr Gauke: The estimate of the revenue foregone by The Department does not collect the cost to the NHS the Exchequer due to the provision of low value of the provision of the morning after pill. However, the consignment relief in each of the last five calendar NHS Information Centre is able to provide the net years is as follows: ingredient cost of drugs supplied which is shown in the following table, but does not hold information on the Loss of VAT (£ million) total cost to the NHS. 2006 90 Figures are taken from the Prescription Cost Analysis 2007 100 (PCA) database which contains information on the 2008 130 number of items dispensed in England. These figures 2009 140 cover emergency contraceptives issued on prescriptions 2010 130 in primary care only. Emergency contraceptives can also be supplied without a prescription either through For consistency and ease of comparison, the figures contraceptive and sexual health clinics, or by pharmacists in the table assume a constant standard rate of VAT of under a Patient Group Direction. Emergency contraception 17.5%. The actual cost for 2009 is slightly different from may also be purchased by patients over the age of 16 in these figures reflecting the temporary cut in the standard pharmacies. rate of VAT. Emergency contraceptives are listed in the British National Formulary under paragraph 7.3.5. The figures VAT: Waste Disposal given are for the morning after pill only and do not include prescriptions for intra-uterine contraceptive devices, Mr Kevan Jones: To ask the Chancellor of the which can also be used for emergency contraception. Exchequer (1) whether he consulted specialists in European competition law before taking the decision to allow local authorities to undertake commercial Financial year Net ingredient cost (£) waste collections free of VAT; [71063] 2007-08 1,839,762 (2) whether his Department consulted 2008-09 1,704,023 representatives of the private management sector 2009-10 1,597,437 before taking the decision to allow local authorities to Notes: undertake commercial waste collections free of VAT; PCA Data [71060] 1. Prescription information is taken from the PCA system, supplied by the Prescription Services Division of the NHS Business Services (3) what consultation his Department undertook Authority, and is based on a full analysis of all prescriptions dispensed before taking the decision to allow local authorities to in the community i.e. by community pharmacists and appliance undertake commercial waste collections free of VAT. contractors, dispensing doctors, and prescriptions submitted by prescribing [71062] doctors for items personally administered in England. Also included are prescriptions written in Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and the Isle of Man but dispensed in England. The data do not cover Mr Gauke: The issue is not one of competition law, drugs dispensed in hospitals, including mental health trusts, or private but instead one of VAT law. As such, this was an prescriptions. operational matter and the decision was made by HMRC 2. Prescribers are general practitioners, hospital doctors, dentists and officials in response to a legal challenge against the non-medical prescribers such as nurses and pharmacists. taxation of local authority commercial waste collection 3. Net ingredient cost (NIC) NIC is the basic cost of a drug. It does not take account of discounts, services. Because of this, it was not possible to consult dispensing costs, fees or prescription charges income. more widely. The Environmental Services Association have made representations to HMRC and there is ongoing dialogue about the VAT treatment of commercial waste collection. Action on Smoking and Health

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for HEALTH Health how many times (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Department have met representatives of ASH in Abortion each of the last three years. [70771]

Mr Amess: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: Records of ministerial meetings with what the cost to the NHS was of (a) abortions outside organisations can be found on the Department’s performed (i) before the 12th week of pregnancy, (ii) website. These records show that, since 1 January 2009, between the 12th and 18th weeks of pregnancy, (iii) departmental Ministers have met with representatives between the 18th and 24th weeks of pregnancy and (iv) of Action on Smoking and Health (ASH) once and after the 24th week of pregnancy and (b) provision of spoken at ASH-arranged events twice. the morning after pill in each of the last three years for which figures are available. [R] [71017] Ministers have also met once with Smokefree Action Coalition, of which ASH is a member. Anne Milton: The cost to the national health service The Department does not keep a central diary of the of abortions performed before the 12th week of pregnancy, engagements that every departmental official has had between the 12th and 18th weeks of pregnancy, between with ASH representatives, nor is a central record kept of the 18th and 24th weeks of pregnancy and after the meetings attended by officials where an ASH representative 24th week of pregnancy is not collected by the Department. may also have attended. 1047W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1048W

Breast Feeding approach at the time of the Care and Support White Paper in spring 2012. This will respond to the Law Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Commission’s report. Health which are the principal research findings The training materials, which comprised the former underpinning his Department’s promotion of breast- Caring with Confidence training course are available on feeding over formula. [70756] the Carers Direct website for carers to access. Resources from Caring with Confidence were re-invested across 11 Anne Milton: The Department’s policy on infant projects, these included: feeding is based on the advice by the United Kingdom’s £1.8 million funding to a range of voluntary sector organisations Scientific Advisory Committee on Nutrition who assessed supporting carers including the Afiya Trust, in recognition of the the scientific evidence and the World Health Organisation’s particular needs and challenges faced by carers from ethnic systematic review The optimal duration of exclusive minority communities; breastfeeding and concluded that there was sufficient over £1 million funding for training and carer awareness raising evidence that exclusive breastfeeding for the first six for key health and social professionals, including general practitioners months of an infant’s life is nutritionally adequate. (GPs) and their practice staff; and An extensive body of scientific evidence indicates £1.35 million funding for a grant scheme aimed at encouraging bids from patient-led and condition related organisations wishing that breastfed infants are less likely to develop to do more to support carers by reaching out to people who do gastrointestinal, respiratory and urinary tract infections. not necessarily see themselves as carers. We received over 270 bids A list of key research references that underpin the from a wide range of organisations and plan to fund over 80 Department’s policy has been placed in the Library. organisations who were successful bidders. Carers In addition, we are investing over £800,000 in 2010-11 in a range of activities to support training and awareness raising for GPs and practice staff on carers issues. Justin Tomlinson: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what steps the Government are taking to Chlamydia: Testing ensure that carers are included in care plans and receive support to help them provide care; [70777] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of (2) if he will take steps to improve the provision of State for Health what funding his Department provides training for carers. [70778] for testing young people for chlamydia; how many young people (a) were tested and (b) tested positive in Paul Burstow: The Community Care Assessment (i) England and (ii) Gloucestershire in the latest period Directions 2004 place existing good practice and guidance for which figures are available; and if he will make a on conducting care assessments and care planning into statement. [70694] a legal framework. These directions are covered by local authority circular, LAC (2004)24. Anne Milton: The National Chlamydia Screening The directions explicitly state that when carrying out Programme (NCSP) which was launched in 2003, provides a community care assessment, a local authority must, opportunistic testing for chlamydia for 15 to 24-year-olds. where appropriate, provide information to carers, consult In 2010-11, £1,626,000 was allocated to the Health with them and take reasonable steps to reach agreement Protection Agency to run the NCSP. with the person and their carer on the community care The Department also makes recurrent revenue allocations services they are considering providing to meet assessed direct to primary care trusts (PCTs) on the basis of a needs. national weighted capitation formula which is used to The Law Commission report, published on 10 May determine each PCTs target share of available resources. 2011, devotes a chapter to considering carers’ legislation, The components of the formula are used to weight each and the area is a major theme throughout. PCTs population according to their relative need (age Across the recommendations, the key principle is to and additional need) for health care and the unavoidable try to achieve parity between carers and people who use geographical differences in the cost of providing health services. To do so, the report makes specific care (the market forces factor). recommendations in relation to carer assessments, carers PCT recurrent revenue allocations are not broken services, eligibility criteria and young carers. down by policy or service area. Once allocated, it is for In respect of care plans in particular, recommendation PCTs to commission the services they require, including 30 says that there should be a duty on local authorities chlamydia testing, to meet the health care needs of their to ensure the production of a care and support plan for local populations, taking account of both local and people with assessed eligible needs (including carers). national priorities. The Government are considering all the Information on the number of chlamydia tests and recommendations together as part of designing our diagnoses in those 15 to 24 years of age is shown in the approach to law reform. We plan to set out our legislative following table.

Community Data (NCSP and Non NCSP Non GUM) April 2010 to March 2011, GUM data January 2010 to December 2010

Positive tests reported Community from the Community Chlamydia Testing Chlamydia Testing Positive tests Data (NCSP + non Data (NCSP + non % of Community Chlamydia tests reported from % of GUM NCSP, non GUM) NCSP, non GUM) tests positive reported to GUM GUM tests positive

Gloucestershire PCT 16,396 1,003 6.1 3,788 518 13.7 1049W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1050W

Community Data (NCSP and Non NCSP Non GUM) April 2010 to March 2011, GUM data January 2010 to December 2010 Positive tests reported Community from the Community Chlamydia Testing Chlamydia Testing Positive tests Data (NCSP + non Data (NCSP + non % of Community Chlamydia tests reported from % of GUM NCSP, non GUM) NCSP, non GUM) tests positive reported to GUM GUM tests positive

England 1,733,220 90,567 5.2 500,311 57,167 11.4 Notes: 1. Data presented are the number of chlamydia tests and diagnoses reported and not the number of people tested or diagnosed. 2. Data are presented for Gloucestershire PCT and England only. GUM clinic returns: GUMCAD (Genitourinary Medicine Clinic Activity Dataset): 1. Numbers of tests and diagnoses are adjusted for missing GUM clinic data in 2010. 2. Data are sourced from the GUMCAD report (2010). Due to different data collection and publication dates, GUMCAD data presented is one quarter behind the NCSP data. 3. GUM clinic chlamydia diagnoses include C4A and C4B and C4C (complicated and uncomplicated chlamydia) only. 4. The chlamydia tests reported are from sexual health screens performed at GUM clinics which include testing for Chlamydia, Community Chlamydia Testing Data: 1. The NCSP offers opportunistic chlamydia screening to those aged 15 to 24 years attending a variety of non-GUM clinic settings. NCSP figures therefore include diagnoses among 15 to 24-year-olds only. 2. Data presented are based on all tests with confirmed positive chlamydia test results including partners/contacts as well as index cases. 3. The NCSP also collects data from laboratories on numbers of diagnoses made in those aged 15 to 24 years tested outside registered NCSP settings and GUM clinics. 4. Reporting of ″Non-NCSP/Non-GUM″ returns began in April 2008. 5. Numbers of tests and diagnoses are not adjusted for missing Non-NCSP/Non-GUM data in 2011. Source: Health Protection Agency, GUMCAD returns, NCSP returns, Non NCSP Non GUM returns Date of data: 8 September 2011

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome Mr Simon Burns: All national health service organisations should use appropriate indicators to monitor and seek Andrew Stephenson: To ask the Secretary of State for to improve the quality of the care which they are Health what steps his Department is taking to support commissioning or providing. people living with myalgic encephalomyelitis. [70719] Available indicators include various measures of the rates of emergency readmission following specific Paul Burstow: Responsibility for meeting the health procedures, and an indicator of the proportion of older needs of those living with long-term neurological conditions, people who were still at home 91 days after discharge including chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic from hospital into rehabilitation, services. Where these encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) rests with local health high-level indicators show cause for concern, more detailed bodies. They are expected to implement the guidance local clinical audit may be helpful in identifying the produced by the National Institute for Heath and Clinical possible underlying causes. In line with the Government’s Excellence on CFS/ME, as well as the more general commitment to greater transparency in the information guidance on neurological conditions, the National Service available on the outcomes of patient care, providers are Framework for Long-term Neurological Conditions, encouraged to share appropriate data from clinical audit produced by the Department. with their commissioners.

Mr Mike Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Hepatitis: Ethnic Groups Health what definition of myalgic encephalopathy his Department uses; and how it categorises the condition. Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for [71237] Health what the prevalence rate is of Hepatitis C by ethnic origin. [71084] Paul Burstow: The report of the CFS/ME Working Group to the chief medical officer, in January 2002, Anne Milton: The Health Protection Agency estimates suggested that the composite term chronic fatigue that, in 2005, 0.54%, of the adult population in England syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME) be used had antibody to hepatitus C (HCV). as an umbrella term for this condition, or spectrum of disease. Data on the prevalence of HCV by ethnic origin are limited, however some studies in England have found This term is used by the National Institute for Health that individuals who originate from the Indian sub-continent and Clinical Excellence for their clinical guidelines, are among those at increased risk of hepatitis C infection. which also provide a definition of this condition for Research jointly funded by the Hepatitis C Trust and health professionals. the Department, published in 2010 indicated that 1.6%, The Department classes CFS/ME as a long-term of people of south Asian origin had evidence of hepatitis neurological disease of unknown cause. C infection. The corresponding rate for people born in Pakistan was 2.7%. Health Services: Older People HIV Infection: Drugs Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what role he proposes for clinical audits in Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health assisting commissioning bodies to (a) identify the what research he has (a) commissioned and (b) reasons for emergency readmissions of patients aged evaluated on the treatment of HIV-infected patients over 65 years of age and (b) evaluate the effectiveness with the Gc protein-derived macrophage activating of post-discharge planning. [70319] factor; and if he will make a statement. [70905] 1051W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1052W

Mr Simon Burns: The Department has not commissioned Learning Disability or evaluated research specifically on the treatment of HIV-infected patients with the Gc Protein-Derived Graeme Morrice: To ask the Secretary of State for Macrophage Activating Factor. Health whether he has any plans to commission The Department’s National Institute for Health Research organisations with expertise in communication aids is currently funding a £2 million randomised controlled and assistive technology to advise families and agencies trial of a protease inhibitor monotherapy versus continuing on the opportunities such services provide for people combination antiretroviral therapy for HIV-1 infected with profound and multiple learning disabilities; and if patients previously established on a dual nucleoside and he will make a statement. [70770] non-nucleoside combination regimen. Paul Burstow: There are no plans at present to provide information about communication aids and assistive Hospices: Finance technology.

Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what recent discussions he has had with primary Macular Degeneration: Drugs care trusts on funding for hospices; and if he will make a statement; [70628] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of (2) what guidance he has provided to primary care State for Health if he will refer the prescribing of trusts on funding for hospices; and if he will make a Avastin to treat wet age-related macular degeneration statement; [70629] to the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence; and if he will make a statement. [70741] (3) what steps his Department is taking to ensure that hospices receive adequate funding; what plans he Mr Simon Burns: Avastin (bevacizumab) is not licensed has for the future of hospice funding; and if he will for use in the treatment of wet age-related macular make a statement; [70631] degeneration. (4) what assessment his Department has made of the The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence merits of introducing a national tariff for hospice care; (NICE) has conducted work with stakeholders to explore and if he will make a statement. [70632] the feasibility of appraising Avastin for the treatment of eye conditions and submitted a report of its findings to Paul Burstow: The Department’s “End of Life Care the Department in 2010. The report is available on Strategy” (2008) makes clear the responsibilities of the NICE’S website at: national health service to ensure adequate support for www.nice.org.uk/ourguidance/niceguidancebytype/technology hospices, including through stronger commissioning and appraisals/proposedappraisals/ adhering to the principles of the “Compact Code of bevacizumabineyeconditions.jsp Good Practice”. The Department made £286 million We have no immediate plans to refer this topic to additional funding available to help implement the strategy NICE for appraisal, but will keep this position under over 2009-10 and 2010-11. Hospices were in a good review. position to work with the NHS to secure some of this funding to deliver many of the initiatives recommended in the strategy. As part of this funding, the Department NHS made available a £40 million capital budget for hospices in 2010-11 to support improvements to the care environment Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what role he proposes for befriending services in As part of the development of the strategy, a review the NHS. [70320] was undertaken of specialist palliative care spend by primary care trusts (PCTs). This was published alongside Paul Burstow: People supported by community care the strategy, and provided useful data for PCTs to services can often feel socially isolated and lonely. benchmark their levels of specialist palliative care provision. Befriending services provide people in this situation This exercise has been’ repeated for 2010-11, and will be with opportunities for social interaction and a sense of published shortly. being part of a community. These services can be We have made a commitment to review payment particularly helpful for people recovering from a mental systems to support end of life care, including exploring illness, older people, people on the autistic spectrum, options for per-patient funding to meet the commitment and those accessing palliative care. in the coalition agreement. This work has been taken Our goal is to give local communities a much greater forward by the independent Palliative Care Funding say in determining local arrangements for assisting and Review, which reported on 1 July. The recommendations supporting national health service patients. The new of the review will influence decisions on future funding local Healthwatch will make its own decisions about policies for dedicated palliative care services, whoever what is needed locally—whether and how to make the provides them. We are currently considering these best use of local people to respond to the needs of recommendations in detail and expect to engage with patients both in hospitals and in community settings. stakeholders on this later this year before running pilots. This builds on the existing powers of local authorities We have had no recent discussions with, nor provided and local health bodies to commission both advocacy any guidance to, PCTs specifically on funding for hospices. and befriending services. 1053W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1054W

NHS: Finance access to hospital. Patients on low incomes are entitled to recover travel costs, including car parking charges, under the Hospital Travel Costs Scheme. Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much income the NHS received from (a) Bounty and Patientline/Hospedia, (b) each of the top Obesity: Children five by income partner organisations and (c) other third party organisations in each year since 1997. Anne Marie Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for [70755] Health what plans his Department has to reduce levels of childhood obesity; and what recent progress has Mr Simon Burns: The Department does not hold been made in reducing those levels. [71261] information on national health service income received from individual companies in respect of local contracts Anne Milton: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I with NHS organisations, including Bounty and Hospedia gave to the hon. Member for Redditch (Karen Lumley) (formerly Patientline). on 6 September 2011, Official Report, columns 582-83W. Palliative Care: Standards Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much (a) direct and (b) indirect revenue the NHS received from parking charges in each year Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health since 1997. [70758] what recent assessment he has made of the quality of hospice and palliative care provision in England. Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in [70630] the format requested as the Department does not hold Paul Burstow: We are committed to improving the data on direct and indirect revenue the national health quality of all services provided to patients, including service received from parking charges. However, the those approaching the end of life. The Mandate and Department did historically collect some data on income National Health Service Outcomes Framework will drive from staff, patient and visitors from parking charges. quality improvement throughout the NHS. From 2001-02 to 2007-08, the Department collected The end of life care Quality Standard being developed annual data from national health service trusts on car by the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence parking provision and any associated charges, through will set out the evidence-based characteristics of a high the Estates Returns Information Collection. In 2004-05, quality service for end of life care, which will help the collection of these data was moved from a mandatory commissioners and providers to improve the quality of to a voluntary basis. In order to lessen the burden on services. the NHS to provide central returns, the collection of voluntary data items ceased after the 2007-08 period We are commissioning a national survey to ask bereaved and therefore the collection of data on car parking was relatives about the deceased’s experience of care, as well discontinued after the 2007-08 collection period. The as asking them about their own experience. The survey, Department does not hold data on this subject after which should be complete by March 2012, will inform a that period. new indicator on end of life care within the patient experience domain of the NHS Outcomes Framework, The data which are available for each year from as well as informing local service improvement activity. 2001-02 to 2007-08 are shown in the following table: We have made no recent assessment of the quality of Total income from staff, patients and visitors hospice and palliative care provision. £ million

2001-02 60 Pregnancy: Death 2002-03 72 2003-04 83 Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Health 2004-05 78 what steps he is taking to reduce the number of deaths 2005-06 98 of women from conditions directly or indirectly related 2006-07 102 to pregnancy. [71082] 2007-08 112 Anne Milton: There has been a significant reduction The information provided has been supplied by the in the United Kingdom’s maternal death rate—from NHS and had not been amended centrally. The accuracy 13.95 per 100,000 maternities in the triennium 2003-05 and completeness of the information is the responsibility to 11.39 in 2006-08. of the provider organisation. The Department has made the provision of safe, high The provision of hospital car parking and any associated quality maternity services, focused on improving outcomes charges are decided locally by individual trusts to help for women and babies, a priority in the NHS Outcomes cover the cost of running, maintaining and securing a Framework for 2011-12. car park. All NHS trusts should have exemption and The Department encourages early access to maternity concessionary schemes in place to ensure that patients services and has included the maternity 12-week early and carers who visit hospital regularly are not access indicator as one of the measures for quality in disadvantaged. They should also have sustainable public the NHS Operating Framework for 2011-12. This will transport plans in place for staff and visitors. Local enable those women who can be identified as being at policies should include fair concessions for all patients increased risk of complications to receive additional whose health care needs require extended or frequent support and monitoring from an early stage. 1055W Written Answers12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Written Answers 1056W

Private Finance Initiative: Suffolk Standards, PFI assets, are recorded on the Statement of Financial Position with a corresponding liability. Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Information on the annual Unitary Payments made (1) what the outstanding private finance initiative debts under every signed health sector PFI contract over the are for (a) Ipswich Hospital, (b) the West Suffolk lifetime of the contract can be found on the HM Hospital and (c) Suffolk Primary Care Trust; [70634] Treasury website at: (2) what the outstanding future financial liabilities www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ are for (a) Ipswich Hospital, (b) the West Suffolk pfi_signed_projects_list_march2011.xls Hospital and (c) Suffolk Primary Care Trust. [70635] The health sector schemes are clearly marked ″DH-Acute (i.e. Hospitals)″—that for Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust Mr Simon Burns: Information on the total amount has the Project ID number 315. As described above, owed by each organisation in’ respect of bank overdrafts, there are no PFI schemes at West Suffolk Hospitals current and long term loans, obligations under finance NHS Trust or Suffolk Primary Care Trust. The table leases, Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and Local includes information on payments already made (i.e. for Improvement Finance Trust (LIFT) arrangements, is financial years preceding 2011-12) and estimated for the shown in the following table. remaining contract period. NHS Future Financial Liabilities as at 31 March 2010 The Unitary Payment is paid by the national health 2009-10 (£000) service body to the private sector counterparty to the contract and covers all the services provided under the Suffolk Primary Care Trust 86 contract—initial construction, so the capital costs Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust 45,249 (repayment of principal and financing); building West Suffolk Hospital NHS Trust 3,554 maintenance; and in many cases the non-clinical support Source: services such as cleaning, laundry, catering, portering Audited Summarisation Schedules, 2009-10 and security. The payments are subject to meeting agreed ’Outstanding future financial liabilities’ could be performance and quality standards and the estimated interpreted in a number of ways in relation to the amounts include an annual uprate assumption for inflation finances of national health service organisations. We of 2.5% for future years. have interpreted this to mean the total amount reported by each NHS organisation in their Statement of Financial Transplant Surgery: Reading Position in respect of bank overdrafts, current and long term loans, obligations under finance leases, PFI and Alok Sharma: To ask the Secretary of State for Health LIFT arrangements. These are the items most readily how many patients in Reading West constituency were identified with the term ’financial liabilities’ in accounting assessed as needing an organ transplant in each of the terminology. last five years. [70887] The figure for Ipswich Hospital NHS Trust includes a liability on the trust’s books in respect of a PFI hospital Anne Milton: The information requested is provided of £28,642,000. Under International Financial Reporting in the following table.

Reading West constituency solid organ transplant list statistics, by financial year Status 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12

Number on waiting Active2120181715 list at the start of the year Suspended 33757 New recipient Active 7 4 9 11 — registrations Notes: 1. ’Active’ means the patient is currently in a state to receive a transplant. 2. ’Suspended’ means they are temporarily unable to receive a transplant (though they ultimately need one) as they are to ill, away, etc. Source: NHS Blood and Transplant

Varicose Veins: Health Services (NICE) on the safety and efficacy of endovenous laser treatment of the long saphenous vein, and on the Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Health circumstances in which general practitioners should what guidance he has been issued to health trusts on consider referring patients with varicose veins to specialist the provision by the NHS of endovenous laser services. The Department’s elective care commissioning treatment; and if he will make a statement. [70904] pathway for varicose veins, published in 2009, refers to NICE’s referral guidance and to the use of endovenous Mr Simon Burns: Guidance is available from the laser treatment as a possible alternative to surgery for National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence some patients. 5MC Ministerial Corrections12 SEPTEMBER 2011 Ministerial Corrections 6MC

The figures for the 2011-12 funding period are not Ministerial Correction yet available, but I am pleased to report that Nu2Sport, in conjunction with the university of Nottingham, Monday 12 September 2011 Nottingham Trent university and Sport Nottinghamshire, secured a grant of just under £250,000 in national lottery funding from Sport England to help more students participate in sport. Nottingham will also benefit from CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT funding invested throughout the country by the national Sports Projects (Nottinghamshire) governing bodies of sport. I will write to the hon. Gentleman once the full figures are available. 1. Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab): The correct answer should have been: What estimate he has made of the level of revenue and capital funding for sports projects in Nottinghamshire in 2011-12; and if he will make a statement. [70588] The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh [Official Report, 8 September 2011, Vol. 532, c. 527.] Robertson): Before answering, on behalf of the whole Letter of correction from Hugh Robertson: House may I congratulate the England and Wales cricket An error has been identified in the oral answer given team on becoming the No. 1 test playing nation in the to the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) world? [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] That was a during Culture, Media and Sport Question Time on popular one. I also congratulate our rowing and athletics 8 September 2011. Our athletics squad won seven medals, squads on winning 14 and seven medals respectively at not 17 as stated. their world championships last weekend, and William Fox-Pitt on a record sixth victory at the Burghley horse The answer given was as follows: trials. The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh The figures for the 2011-12 funding period are not Robertson): Before answering, on behalf of the whole yet available, but I am pleased to report that Nu2Sport, House may I congratulate the England and Wales cricket in conjunction with the university of Nottingham, team on becoming the No. 1 test playing nation in the Nottingham Trent university and Sport Nottinghamshire, world? [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] That was a secured a grant of just under £250,000 in national popular one. I also congratulate our rowing and athletics lottery funding from Sport England to help more students squads on winning 14 and 17 medals respectively at participate in sport. Nottingham will also benefit from their world championships last weekend, and William funding invested throughout the country by the national Fox-Pitt on a record sixth victory at the Burghley horse governing bodies of sport. I will write to the hon. trials. Gentleman once the full figures are available.

ORAL ANSWERS

Monday 12 September 2011

Col. No. Col. No. HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 735 HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Antisocial Behaviour...... 747 Illegal Immigrants (NHS Treatment) ...... 748 Bogus Colleges...... 739 Immigration...... 745 Disorder (Gangs) ...... 748 Police Numbers...... 735 Efficiency (Police Forces) ...... 741 Police Panels ...... 738 Family Migration...... 740 Student Visas (English Language Teaching)...... 739 Health and Safety Regulation (Police)...... 744 Terrorism ...... 749 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Monday 12 September 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TRANSPORT ...... 35WS AFFAIRS...... 33WS Maritime and Coastguard Agency (Business New Waterways Charity ...... 33WS Plan) ...... 35WS

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 34WS WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 36WS EU Foreign Ministers Meeting (Sopot, Poland)..... 34WS DWP Administration...... 36WS PETITION

Monday 12 September 2011

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT . 17P Development (Luton) ...... 17P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Monday 12 September 2011

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1029W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT—continued Citizens’ Advice Bureaux ...... 1029W UK Film Council...... 996W Departmental Written Questions ...... 1029W Employers’ Liability...... 1030W DEFENCE...... 1007W Higher Education: Finance ...... 1030W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 1007W Higher Education: York...... 1032W Armed Forces ...... 1007W Land Registry: Applications ...... 1031W Armed Forces: Discharges ...... 1008W Post Offices: Bank Services ...... 1033W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 1009W Rural Communities Policy Unit ...... 1033W Armed Forces: Training ...... 1011W Union Modernisation Fund...... 1034W Combat Capability Directorate...... 1011W Waste Disposal: VAT ...... 1034W Departmental Redundancy ...... 1012W Military Aircraft ...... 1012W CABINET OFFICE...... 1034W Military Bases...... 1012W Non-Departmental Public Bodies ...... 1034W Military Bases: Kirknewton ...... 1013W Public Sector: Procurement...... 1035W Navy ...... 1013W EDUCATION...... 984W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 997W Advisory Centre for Education: Finance...... 984W Departmental Private Finance Initiative ...... 997W Children: Autism...... 985W Empty Property: Berkshire...... 997W Children: Daycare ...... 986W Enterprise Zones...... 998W Children in Care...... 984W Housing: Graduates...... 998W Children’s Centres ...... 987W Local Government: Expenditure...... 998W Children’s Centres: Tower Hamlets ...... 987W Drugs: Misuse...... 988W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 995W Health Services ...... 988W Broadband: Berkshire ...... 995W Pre-school Education...... 989W Departmental Private Finance Initiative ...... 995W Special Educational Needs...... 989W Gambling...... 995W Sports ...... 995W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 965W Tourism: Yorkshire and Humberside ...... 996W Electromagnetic Fields: Health Hazards ...... 965W Col. No. Col. No. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 981W Energy: Prices ...... 965W Chapel of St Mary Undercroft...... 981W Energy: Private Rented Housing ...... 965W Electric Vehicles ...... 981W Energy: Tenants ...... 967W Parliament: Police ...... 981W Feed-in Tariffs: Schools...... 967W Pay...... 981W Fuel Poverty: Private Sector ...... 967W Roads...... 982W Green Deal Scheme: Housing ...... 968W Nuclear Reactors ...... 968W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1014W Vitol Group ...... 969W Developing Countries: Transport ...... 1014W Wind Power: Yorkshire ...... 969W Ethiopia: Overseas Aid ...... 1014W Ethiopia: Resettlement...... 1015W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Horn of Africa: Droughts...... 1015W AFFAIRS...... 969W Libya: Politics and Government...... 1016W Animal Welfare: Agriculture ...... 969W North Africa: Transport...... 1016W Animal Welfare: Convictions ...... 970W Sudan: Overseas Aid...... 1017W Animal Welfare: Diseases...... 971W Sudan: Politics and Government...... 1017W Animal Welfare: Gun Sports...... 971W Animal Welfare: Slaughter Houses...... 972W JUSTICE...... 1018W Animals: Electric Shock Equipment ...... 974W Civil Disorder ...... 1018W Bovine Tuberculosis ...... 974W Civil Proceedings: Legal Costs ...... 1019W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 975W Convictions: Burglary ...... 1020W Dogs: Tagging...... 976W Departmental Written Questions ...... 1020W Fines ...... 976W Freedom of Information ...... 1021W Fisheries...... 976W Interpreters: Training ...... 1021W Forests ...... 976W Organised Crime ...... 1022W Government Procurement Card ...... 977W Prison Accommodation ...... 1022W Livestock: Transport ...... 977W Prisoner Escapes ...... 1027W Meat ...... 977W Pet Travel Scheme: Disease Control ...... 977W LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 997W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 978W Business Committee...... 997W Regional Veterinary Laboratory...... 979W Waste Disposal ...... 980W PRIME MINISTER...... 983W Water White Paper ...... 980W Libya...... 983W

FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 999W TRANSPORT ...... 989W British Nationals Abroad: Homicide ...... 999W Aviation ...... 989W Diplomatic Service: Internet ...... 999W Bus Services ...... 990W India ...... 1000W Bus Services: Theft...... 990W Iraq: Kurds ...... 1000W Departmental Private Finance Initiative ...... 990W Libya...... 1000W Departmental Work Experience...... 991W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 1001W Driving: Offences ...... 991W Nguyen Van Ly...... 1002W Driving: Standards...... 992W Oslo ...... 1002W East Coast Railway Line: Standards ...... 992W Politics and Government...... 1003W Great Western Railway...... 992W Somalia: Famine ...... 1003W Network Rail ...... 992W Railways...... 993W HEALTH...... 1045W Rescue Services ...... 993W Abortion ...... 1045W Thameslink Railway Line: Rolling Stock ...... 994W Action on Smoking and Health ...... 1046W Breast Feeding ...... 1047W TREASURY ...... 1035W Carers ...... 1047W British Sky Broadcasting...... 1035W Chlamydia: Testing ...... 1048W Child Benefit...... 1035W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ...... 1049W Child Tax Credit ...... 1036W Health Services: Older People ...... 1049W Coastal Communities Fund ...... 1036W Hepatitis: Ethnic Groups ...... 1050W Corporation Tax ...... 1036W HIV Infection: Drugs...... 1050W Credit Cards: Fees and Charges ...... 1037W Hospices: Finance...... 1051W Cru Investment Management: Compensation...... 1037W Learning Disability ...... 1052W Departmental Air Travel ...... 1038W Macular Degeneration: Drugs ...... 1052W Environment Protection: Taxation ...... 1038W NHS...... 1052W Equitable Life Payment Scheme...... 1038W NHS: Finance ...... 1053W Financial Services: USA ...... 1039W Obesity: Children ...... 1054W Freedom of Information ...... 1039W Palliative Care: Standards ...... 1054W Hotels ...... 1040W Pregnancy: Death...... 1054W Members: Correspondence ...... 1040W Private Finance Initiative: Suffolk...... 1055W National Insurance Contributions: New Transplant Surgery: Reading...... 1056W Businesses ...... 1040W Varicose Veins: Health Services...... 1055W Pensions: Public Sector ...... 1040W Personal Financial Information ...... 1041W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 1018W Tax Avoidance ...... 1035W Police Numbers...... 1018W Taxation...... 1041W Sex Offenders...... 1018W Taxation: Aviation ...... 1041W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1004W Taxation: Business ...... 1042W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome ...... 1004W Taxation: Gambling ...... 1042W Employment ...... 1004W Taxation: Gaming Machines...... 1042W Enterprise Clubs ...... 1005W Taxation: Isle of Man ...... 1043W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 1005W VAT ...... 1043W Welfare to Work...... 1006W VAT: Channel Islands ...... 1044W Work Capability Assessment...... 1006W VAT: Entertainments ...... 1044W VAT: Imports ...... 1044W VAT: Waste Disposal...... 1045W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Monday 12 September 2011

Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 5MC Sports Projects (Nottinghamshire)...... 5MC

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CONTENTS

Monday 12 September 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 735] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for the Home Department

Independent Banking Commission Report [Col. 757] Statement—(Mr George Osborne)

Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill [Col. 780] Programme motion (No. 3)—(Stephen Crabb)—agreed to Lords amendments considered

Petition [Col. 860]

Swansea Coastguard [Col. 861] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 33WS]

Petition [Col. 17P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 965W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 5MC]