Wednesday Volume 503 13 January 2010 No. 23

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Wednesday 13 January 2010

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2010 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 669 13 JANUARY 2010 670

Michael Connarty ( and East Falkirk) (Lab): House of Commons Will my right hon. Friend raise the question of psychological and psychiatric services in particular, because cases that Wednesday 13 January 2010 have come to me recently have highlighted serious deficiencies? Although I commend the work of Combat Stress in Hollybush House in the constituency of my The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne), it is a voluntary charitable organisation PRAYERS that is taking up much of the strain that is sadly not being taken up by the psychiatric services offered to our troops on their return from combat. [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is right to talk about the need for continuing support as people prepare to BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS return from theatre and at the point at which they arrive. I had the great honour of meeting some of our LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] (BY soldiers as they returned from theatre in Afghanistan ORDER) and they talked about the need for continued and Motion made, That the Bill be read a Second time. ongoing support. That includes support not just with housing but with dental care and health care, including Hon. Members: Object. mental health treatment, both in-patient and out-patient. Bill to be read a Second time on Wednesday 20 January. I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence and the veterans Minister have considered this matter very carefully and if my hon. Friend has any specific suggestions about how the situation could be Oral Answers to Questions improved, I am sure that they will listen with great care. Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East ) (LD): Does the Secretary of State understand the contribution that is made to morale by the knowledge that outstanding medical services are available in Selly Oak hospital and, of course, at the rehabilitation centre at Headley Court. The Secretary of State was asked— If he has not yet visited either the hospital or the rehabilitation centre, may I urge him to do so? He will Armed Forces (Morale) see at first hand the courage of the patients and the skill of the staff. 1. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Mr. Murphy: The right hon. and learned Gentleman Defence on the morale of members of the armed forces is absolutely right about the remarkable dedication of based in Scotland returning from active service. the staff, of which we have all heard. I have not yet had [309549] the honour of visiting; I do not know whether that was an invitation—it was an invitation by proxy, I think—but The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. ): I would happily accept it. We all know by repute of the Good morning, Mr. Speaker. The men and women of remarkable conviction of those men and women who our armed forces are remarkable people and I have care for our heroes on their return, which is why we have regular conversations with ministerial colleagues about increased the investment in those medical facilities. We support for our armed forces and their families. are determined to do more whenever we possibly can. Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): Good Bob Spink: I thank the Secretary of State for that morning, Mr. Speaker. Many veterans returning from response, with which I totally agree, and for his good active service suffer from mental problems and, work in Scotland. Does he agree that people in Scotland unfortunately, some of them end up in custody. Recently, want to see our returning heroes—and particularly the Ministry of Justice and the Ministry of Defence those with families—treated with dignity? That means have started a process of identifying veterans in custody that they should be given priority in housing and should in England and Wales in order to ensure that they are not be made homeless, which is what happens at the matched with the appropriate support agency, such as moment in Castle Point. the Royal British Legion and Combat Stress. Given that prisons are a devolved issue but defence and looking Mr. Murphy: I agree with the sentiment behind the after veterans are not, will the Secretary of State seek to hon. Gentleman’s question. Although I do not know use his offices to ensure that the Scottish Government the details, I am sure that he understands that when it play their part in trying to ensure that our veterans in comes to situations such as that in Castle Point, whether custody are looked after and given the support that they they arise north or south of the border, we need to deserve? handle our returning heroes with great care and sensitivity, including when it comes to issues relating to housing. Mr. Murphy: The hon. Gentleman served with distinction Local connections to local areas should be properly in the armed forces, in the Scots Guards, so he will taken into account, and if that is not happening in know that it is always important that we should look to Castle Point, I think that most of the hon. Gentleman’s see what more we can do. That is why we have specific constituents would consider that to be shabby. programmes to help those ex-servicemen and women 671 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 672 who are unemployed and it is also why we are developing Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP): The Royal United Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Justice-specific Services Institute said that there is likely to be a programmes to help those who are coming out of 20 per cent. cut in service personnel in the years ahead. prison. If there is a gap—I do not want to make that That would mean fewer service personnel in Scotland assertion—and if there are lessons to be learned north than in the Irish Republic. Is that good for morale, and south of the border, I will happily convene conversations given that there have been more than 10,000 defence job and meetings between the Royal British Legion north cuts in Scotland since Labour came to power and a and south of the border, ourselves and Scottish Government defence underspend of more than £4.3 billion in recent officials to ensure that we can learn lessons from years? another and to ensure that those ex-service personnel who have unfortunately found themselves in prison get Mr. Murphy: There are currently 12,000 members of, the proper support to which they are entitled. and 6,000 civilians working in, the armed forces in Scotland. I do not agree with today’s assessment on the Mr. (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): percentage reductions in the armed forces, but what is Will the Secretary of State join me in commending the absolutely clear is that were the hon. Gentleman’s party work of the Royal British Legion Scotland, the Army in power and were it to have its way and have Scotland Benevolent Fund in Scotland, Poppyscotland and others separated from the United Kingdom, there would be a for the work that they do in supporting those who have 100 per cent. cut in the armed forces, because there served our country in the armed forces? Those organisations would be no Royal Navy, no Royal Air Force, no British bring to our attention time and again the fact that many Army and no shipbuilding for aircraft carriers on the ex-servicemen fall through the net in Scotland. Will the Clyde. We have enormous respect for our armed forces, Secretary of State, using his offices as a clearing house north and south of the border, and we laugh with for communications between the Governments here contempt at his ludicrous arguments. and in Edinburgh, see whether he can do more to ensure that that situation improves? Cross-Border Transport

Mr. Murphy: In the spirit of the hon. Gentleman’s 2. (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What suggestion, I am happy to do whatever I can to assist. recent discussions he has had with Scottish Executive He is absolutely right about the work of the British Ministers on the resilience of cross-border transport Legion and of other charities across Scotland and the links to extreme weather conditions. [309550] UK. There is enormous public affection in Scotland and across the UK, and immeasurable public respect, The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): for our heroic men and women returning from this and The Department for Transport and the devolved previous wars, and public collections on Remembrance Administrations, including the Scottish Government, day continue to grow the further we get from the second have been regularly monitoring salt supplies and stock world war. However, it is incumbent on us all to bear in levels across Great Britain with the help of agencies, mind that remembrance is not a one-day event, but an local authorities and companies that supply salt. There every-day-of-the-year event, and I am happy to see has been very good co-operation across the UK. what can be done to take up his suggestion. Jo Swinson: I thank the Secretary of State for that Mr. Carmichael: In that spirit, may I bring to the reply.However, airport closures, train delays and hazardous attention of the Secretary of State the fact that my hon. driving conditions made it very difficult for Scots travelling Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and to see friends and family over Christmas and returning Selkirk (Mr. Moore) will introduce a Bill later today to to work in the new year. There is particular concern establish a veterans covenant similar to the military about salt supplies, with the Scottish Government saying covenant for serving members of the armed forces? Will that the stocks are steady and well managed, but local the Secretary of State undertake to argue the case in authorities crying that they do not have enough. Does Government for my hon. Friend’s Bill to be given time, he think that Scotland has learned the lessons well so that a proposal on which there is a clear consensus enough from England’s big freeze last February? can become law? Mr. Murphy: Remarkable efforts have been made, Mr. Murphy: We will, of course, consider the detail of again north and south of the border, by gritters, by all the Bill introduced by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, those involved in the emergency services and home Roxburgh and Selkirk. The sentiment behind the comments help, and others to keep Scotland moving, and largely of the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland that has met with some success. However, there are (Mr. Carmichael) is correct. This is about trying to find lessons to learn. Some local authorities have not had additional ways of supporting men and women returning enough supplies, and early in the deep freeze, there was from war, whether they are injured or have returned safe not enough co-ordination or co-operation. We can learn and well. It is not just about that, however; it is also lessons from what has happened during this cold spell about supporting the extended service families—the in Scotland. husbands of the women who serve, the wives and girlfriends of the men who serve, and their children—which is why Gordon Banks (Ochil and South Perthshire) (Lab): we are looking at making commitments on matters such On the issue of extreme weather, may I offer my thanks as the provision of housing, health and dental care, and to the Government for the introduction of a new weather support for children of those in the armed services with monitoring station for cold weather payments in Strathallan special educational needs. We are doing a huge amount, in my constituency? Will my right hon. Friend the but I am sure that we could do more. Secretary of State urge on his ministerial colleagues the 673 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 674 need for even more local monitoring stations so that (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and those payments can be made appropriately to the people Tweeddale) (Con): I am sure that the Minister’s summit who need them? will be welcome, but in Ayrshire alone a further 3,419 people have been forced on to the dole in the past Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend raises an important 12 months. Can the Minister tell all those people, as point about the improvements that we have made to well as the hundreds of thousands of other jobseekers monitoring stations. I can confirm to the House that in in Scotland, where exactly they will find the signs that Scotland cold weather payments have accounted for Scotland is coming out of recession that the Secretary £39 million of additional support across Scotland, helping of State claimed were there on Monday? He claims that 400,000 Scots who otherwise would find it difficult to those signs exist, but is it not the case that the evidence heat their homes and cook their food during the deep in Ayrshire and elsewhere in Scotland simply does not freeze experienced there. back him up?

Mr. Tom Harris (, South) (Lab): Will my Ann McKechin: There are clear indications from a right hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the staff number of independent experts that we are moving out of cross-border rail services, particularly on the west of the recession, but we are certainly not complacent. coast main line, who kept the trains running even when We are well aware that there are hot spots of every other form of transport had ground to a halt and unemployment—in Ayrshire and Lanarkshire—but unlike who managed to provide information and care to passengers in the 1980s and 1990s, when the hon. Gentleman’s whose journeys were inevitably delayed? Government ignored those areas, we are determined to protect the most vulnerable. That is why we are investing Mr. Murphy: I visited my hon. Friend’s constituency £1.2 billion throughout the United Kingdom to help over the weekend to see how local people were coping young people into work. It is also why we have changed with the deep freeze. As a former transport Minister, he the young person’s guarantee, from 10 months to six has enormous experience of rail services. He also has a months, so that we can get young people into paid work detailed knowledge of the huge efforts made to keep the at the earliest moment, providing them with the west coast main line fully operational and on time. opportunities to become well placed to get into the job Difficulties were experienced in other parts of Scotland— market. train services between Glasgow and Edinburgh were disrupted, as were many other services, but remarkable David Mundell: The Minister and the Secretary of efforts were made to keep that line open. I pay tribute to State are good at talking the language of the 1980s, but the way in which the company workers stayed longer sadly not so good at dealing with the issues of the and worked harder to maintain the tracks, making a present. On the very day that the Secretary of State huge commitment to keep Scotland moving. claimed that there were signs that Scotland was emerging Employment (Ayrshire) from the recession, the latest purchasing managers index showed that manufacturing was still contracting and 3. Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): that the flow of new orders in Scotland was considerably When he next expects to visit Ayrshire to discuss levels weaker than elsewhere in the UK. The Minister and the of employment in the area. [309551] Secretary of State refer to the future jobs fund, which has brought some benefits, but is it not the case that the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland fund is increasingly focused on public sector employment, (Ann McKechin): Good morning, Mr. Speaker. I visited rather than on our hard-pressed private sector? So a number of organisations in Ayrshire last week, including other than warm words— the coalfield community transport initiative, where I met people who are now in work thanks to the future Mr. Speaker: Order. I think we have got it. jobs fund. Ann McKechin: Today there are 250,000 more people Mr. Donohoe: I am grateful that my hon. Friend has in work in Scotland than in 1997. That shows the credit made time to come to Ayrshire. However, she may not of our policies, under which we do not allow people to recall that in 1997 one of her predecessors, Brian Wilson, be left behind. We are strongly committed to maintaining the Minister at the time, set up a taskforce because of our support for the most vulnerable in our community. high unemployment in the Prestwick area. The taskforce That is why the future jobs fund will be creating 15,000 has proved to be highly successful. I wonder whether jobs in Scotland and why we have managed to assist she can arrange a meeting between herself and Ayrshire thousands of people in the past year in getting back Members of Parliament, along with Scottish Executive into work if they have faced the prospect of redundancy. Ministers. We are certainly not complacent, unlike the previous Government, as their record shows. Ann McKechin: I thank my hon. Friend for his question. Following the national jobs summit, which was successfully Scottish Culture held in Glasgow on Monday and at which more than 120 delegates were present, I can confirm that I shall be 5. Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): If he pleased to hold a similar, local summit in the Ayrshire will hold discussions with ministerial colleagues to area. I am also pleased to note the good work that has develop policy on promotion of Scottish culture been done by local authorities and the voluntary sector throughout the UK. [309553] in Ayrshire. To date, that work has created almost 500 jobs, from the future jobs fund, for young unemployed The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): people. That is a magnificent contribution to overcoming Scotland’s culture is known throughout the UK and the problem affecting every community in Scotland. beyond. There are now more Burns suppers in England 675 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 676 than in Scotland. As a fiercely patriotic Scot, I take Cross-Border Transport every opportunity to promote Scottish culture with my ministerial colleagues. 6. John Barrett (Edinburgh, West) (LD): What recent Mr. Pelling: The Secretary of State is an excellent discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for representative for Scotland. Would cultural interchange Transport on the economic benefits to Scotland of be further encouraged by promoting the good idea of proposed high-speed cross-border rail links. [309554] having both Celtic and Glasgow Rangers playing in the The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): English leagues? I met the Secretary of State for Transport to discuss the high-speed rail link on 5 November, when he visited Mr. Murphy: I would have to declare an interest Glasgow, North-East. before responding to that question, as I am a part-time follower of one of those teams. I will leave it to the John Barrett: There is now growing agreement in all House to guess which one. Of course, that is a decision parties that the high-speed rail network must serve for the football authorities and the football clubs. What central Scotland. Does the Secretary of State agree that would enhance cross-border cultural exchange is a return both Edinburgh and Glasgow must be on that network of the Scotland versus England friendly football matches. and that both those cities should work together to I think that the home internationals will return shortly, that end? with Ireland replacing England, and that there is now a commitment to a return of the Scotland versus England Mr. Murphy: The high-speed rail network could be football matches. I have spoken to the Scottish Football an enormous investment and make enormous Association about that. There was an agreement to have improvements to our infrastructure across the country. such an arrangement in 2008, but Scotland withdrew Initially, it will run from London to the midlands, but from it. Having grown up around memories of the there is a commitment from the Government to try to Wembley Wizards of 1928 and 1967, Kenny Dalglish’s go further. If we can get that rail link to Scotland, it is great goals at Wembley and occasional England victories important that it should serve two of Scotland’s great at Hampden, I think that it would be a remarkable cities, Glasgow and Edinburgh, and there is a commitment sporting event and a highlight in the football calendar, to help to make that happen. We are determined to so I say, “Bring it on.” make that investment, working with the company. Mrs. Anne McGuire () (Lab): Does my right hon. Friend share my hope that the BBC Trust will Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ respond positively to the current consultation about Co-op): As well as providing faster rail services from putting MG ALBA, the Gaelic television station, on to Scotland to London, the high-speed rail network will Freeview? That would allow the benefits of that station also offer the opportunity to have faster direct and to be appreciated and its quality output to be seen by a indirect services to the continent of Europe. Will the wider audience not only in Scotland, but across the UK. Secretary of State do what he can to ensure that opportunities for travel not just to London, but to the Mr. Murphy: Despite the comments of all the doomsayers continent, are also maximised in the plans for the and those who are culturally ignorant, MG ALBA is a high-speed rail network when it is developed north of fantastic success, which has exceeded its ambitions regarding London? its share of audience. It is a young and growing medium that deserves and is entitled to our continued support. Mr. Murphy: As I said before, initially, the commitment If it were available to a wider group of viewers across is to a service from London to the midlands and then to the UK, on different platforms, that would be a real go beyond that to Scotland into Glasgow and Edinburgh. boon. I will do everything I can to make that happen, It is important to make that investment in those hundreds but the BBC Trust certainly has a responsibility to help of miles of rail track to help to make it happen. Such to make it happen. transport connections between Glasgow and London are crucial, which is why it is important that the Scottish Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab): The Secretary Government should reinstate the Glasgow airport link—just of State has spent a great deal of time in my constituency, those seven miles from Glasgow city centre to Glasgow and I am grateful for that. Is he aware of the proposal to airport. I find it ridiculous that people can go to Glasgow, locate an offshoot of the Victoria and Albert Museum Central station and get a train to Manchester airport, in Dundee, and will he join me in supporting that but not to Glasgow airport. venture? Will he agree to meet me to see how Westminster can help us to locate the V and A in Dundee? New Deal Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is a doughty fighter for Dundee. He pestered the Government until we agreed 7. ( and West Fife) (LD): to give additional money for the games industry at the What recent discussions he has had with the Secretary university of Abertay, and it is his victory that that of State for Work and Pensions on the operation in money is in place. Scotland of the payment for results system for the The V and A proposal is a devolved issue, but I New Deal. [309555] believe that there is a need for about £15 million of Scottish Government investment, and I urge them to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland find the money for that fantastic project, so that people (Ann McKechin): My right hon. Friend is in regular across the world have additional reasons to visit the contact with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions great city of Dundee. on a range of issues. 677 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 678

Willie Rennie: New deal training organisations face Ann McKechin: The cold weather payments are triggered the prospect of their income plummeting because they by the temperature and Scotland has, of course, benefited only receive full payment when their clients find a job. more than other parts of the UK because of its geographical In the current climate, when it is harder to find jobs, location. It is this Government who increased the cold their income has already plummeted, threatening the weather payment in September 2008 from £8.25 a week services offered. Will the Minister investigate the to £25 a week—an increase of over 300 per cent.—so I implementation of the flexibility that the Department certainly do not think that there has been any complacency for Work and Pensions promised, because in the current on the Government’s part. climate it is simply not working? Youth Unemployment Ann McKechin: I am happy to take up any particular concerns that the hon. Gentleman may wish to bring to 9. John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab): my attention, but I can assure him that we are keeping What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the flexible new deal under review. The whole point of it policies to reduce the level of youth unemployment in is to move people into sustainable, long-term and permanent Scotland. [309557] employment, which is why we think that it is important The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): that a payment-by-results scheme is appropriate. We are determined to help those of all ages who are out Fuel Poverty of work to get back into work. Since 1997, we have seen the number of 18 to 24-year-olds in Scotland claiming unemployment benefits for six months or more halved. 8. (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (LD): What discussions he has had with the John Robertson: I thank and congratulate my right Scottish Executive on steps to assist households in hon. Friend on his answer. Is he as concerned as I am at Scotland in severe fuel poverty which are not connected the possibility that, because of the Scottish Executive’s to the mains gas grid. [309556] proposal to change the rules for the payment of education maintenance allowance, 7,000 young people will end up The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland on the dole, as they will not receive their £10 or £20, (Ann McKechin): My right hon. Friend and I have had given the new threshold of £30? Is that not a disgrace? no discussions with the Scottish Executive. What can my right hon. Friend do to help these young people? Danny Alexander: May I urge the Minister to rectify that? If people use heating oil to heat their homes, their Mr. Murphy: Many parents and grandparents across fuel is likely to be more expensive so it costs more to pay Scotland are worried about what their children and the bills. Those people are more likely to be in fuel grandchildren will be doing when they leave school or poverty and at the end of the queue to apply for university this year. We all have a responsibility to see measures to help insulate the home. Is not one of the what more we can do. My worry is that the Scottish lessons of this cold spell that help should be directed at National party Edinburgh Government seem to spend the homes that need it most, which means that people so much time trying to get Scotland out of Britain that who use heating oil should be at the front of the queue, they spend so little time trying to get Scotland out of and not at the back of it? [Interruption.] the recession.

Mr. Speaker: There are far too many private Employment conversations taking place in the Chamber, which is very discourteous both to the Member asking the question 10. John Howell (Henley) (Con): What recent and to the Minister answering it. discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on measures to promote employment in Scotland. [309558] Ann McKechin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Jim Murphy): This Government have done more than any other in I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues recent history to do more about fuel poverty. In 2007 about employment in Scotland, and I co-hosted Scotland’s alone, the winter fuel payment took 200,000 households first ever jobs summit on Monday this week in Glasgow. throughout the UK out of fuel poverty, and we are determined to tackle the problem even further through John Howell: What assurances can the Minister give the new Energy Bill and take a further 100,000 pensioner about the quality and permanence of the jobs that he households in Scotland out of poverty. We are certainly claims to be creating for young people in Scotland? not complacent, although we see no irregularity in the non-oil—gas and electric—fuel market, which might Mr. Murphy: First, there is a guarantee that those otherwise cause us to consider regulation at this point, jobs are better than being on the dole—the option that However, we will certainly keep these issues under review. the hon. Gentleman’s party took throughout the 1980s when in government; and there are a quarter of a Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Scottish house million more people in work throughout Scotland now conditions survey shows that those who do not have than there were when we came to power. But of course, access to mains gas are twice as likely to be in fuel the genuine point behind the hon. Gentleman’s question poverty as those who do have such access. The Secretary is about guaranteeing that those young people get of State mentioned earlier the importance of cold weather meaningful employment, that the job turns into a career payments. Given the current situation, will she press her and that such people, when they themselves have children, ministerial colleagues to extend and increase those payments have the finance and self-dependency to provide for to other vulnerable groups? them. We are determined to do all that we can. 679 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 680

Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire, North) (Lab): France and of Germany, lower than that of the euro Despite the best efforts to promote employment in area and lower than that of Japan and of Italy. It is Scotland, my constituents and constituents in Glasgow because we had a low debt that we have been able to will be severely hampered by the decision of Strathclyde take the measures that are necessary to help companies Partnership for Transport to withdraw the Renfrew to deal with the recession, to help the unemployed get ferry. It has done so because it does not have any work, to help young people who are leaving school and funding from the Scottish Government. Will my hon. to help thousands of small businesses survive. We took Friend raise the matter with Scottish Government Ministers the right action in the recession; the Opposition advised in order to reinstate the ferry service? the wrong action. Mr. Murphy: My hon. Friend is always on the case, defending his constituency and promoting employment Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab): May there. If the Renfrew ferry is another transport project I associate myself with the tribute that my right hon. that the SNP Edinburgh Government have cancelled in Friend has paid to those who have lost their lives in the west of Scotland, many people in the area will Afghanistan? believe that the SNP just does not understand that part Is my right hon. Friend aware that today marks the of our country. sixth anniversary of the death of Tom Hurndall, the British photographer who was shot by an Israeli sniper while trying to rescue children from danger in Gaza? Will he join me in paying tribute to the Hurndall family PRIME MINISTER for their tireless efforts in cutting through so many smokescreens put forward by the Israeli military authorities, The Prime Minister was asked— to get to the truth about Tom’s death and uphold the principles of accountability? Will he agree that as an Engagements international community we have no less responsibility to uphold the principle of accountability for the 352 Q1. [310396] Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): If he will Palestinian children, whose names we will never know, list his official engagements for Wednesday 13 January. who died last year— The Prime Minister (Mr. ): Before listing my engagements, I know that the whole House will wish Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that we have got the drift. to join me in paying tribute to Captain Daniel Read, from 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, Royal The Prime Minister: The situation in Gaza is serious. Logistic Corps. He died in Afghanistan on Monday, As I said last week, the only way forward and the only undertaking the dangerous work of protecting his fellow solution is a peace settlement between an Israel that soldiers and civilians from explosive devices. The courage needs security within its borders and a Palestine that and selflessness of this work is truly breathtaking. His needs to be a viable economic state. I have repeatedly sacrifice will not be forgotten, and we send our sincere urged the Israeli Government to improve access for condolences to his family and friends. humanitarian aid and workers. In addition to what I I know that the whole House will wish to join me in said last week, I should say that we have already spent paying tribute also to Rupert Hamer, who lost his life in more than £20 million on meeting urgent aid needs in Afghanistan while reporting from the front line, and to Gaza. The Secretary of State for International Development his colleague, who was injured. Our thoughts are also announced a total package of £53 million for Palestine with their families, friends and colleagues. We are grateful on 28 December, and that was with a particular focus to all those who put themselves in danger to ensure that on Gaza. We will meet the humanitarian needs of the the world is aware of the bravery of those serving in Gaza people where we can. Access is important, but Afghanistan and the realities of life there. everybody knows that it is a political settlement that we Because of the devastating earthquake overnight, need in that area. Haiti has moved to the centre of the world’s thoughts and the world’s compassion. The Government will respond Mr. (Witney) (Con): May I join the with emergency aid, including firefighters, emergency Prime Minister in paying tribute to Captain Daniel equipment and finance, and give further support to help Read from the Royal Logistic Corps, who died in the people of Haiti to recover from that devastating Afghanistan serving our country? As the Prime Minister event. said, the work of bomb disposal experts is truly inspiring This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues when we hear what they do to protect their comrades. and others. In addition to my duties in this House, I I also join the Prime Minister in sending our sincere shall have further such meetings later today. condolences to the friends and family of Rupert Hamer. Bill Wiggin: I am sure that the whole House will agree He and photographer Phil Coburn remind us of the with the Prime Minister’s statement of condolence. bravery and professionalism of journalists who also put their lives at risk to ensure that they report on the work Looking back, our economy entered the recession of our armed services overseas. with one of the largest budget deficits of any first world economy. On reflection, does the Prime Minister regret Finally, of course, I associate myself totally with the that? Prime Minister’s words about the terrible events in Haiti, and send my support to those involved in the The Prime Minister: No, we had one of the lowest humanitarian effort. Obviously, we look forward to a debts—the second-lowest debt—in the G7. Our debt full statement in the House by the Secretary of State for was lower than that of America, lower than that of International Development when appropriate. 681 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 682

The whole country will wish to praise the work of the Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): My right emergency services and how they have dealt with the hon. Friend will know that today in Great Britain unexpected long spell of cold weather. We have all seen 80,000 children are living in care, 80 per cent. of whom and heard incredible stories about neighbour helping will live in care until they are 16, not in a loving, stable neighbour. Can the Prime Minister reassure the House family home. Is it not time that this House considered that everything that can be done is being done to ensure the lives of looked-after children again and considered that we have sufficient supplies of salt and that it is that if a child is not living in a stable, loving home in the being properly distributed so that we can keep our first 18 months of their life, adoption and long-term country moving at this time? fostering must be their right in order to enter a loving, stable home? The Prime Minister: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me a chance to tell the country The Prime Minister: This is a real challenge not only the most updated situation on the transport network for all local authorities, but for all people. We must not and the protection of our roads by salt. Virtually all only pay attention to the number of children in care, main transport networks have remained operational but make sure that those children have the chances that throughout the period. For the work of our highway every other child has for educational attainment, for and other maintenance workers, and to those who are jobs and for stability in their lives as they leave care. In running the emergency services and the thousands of 2007, we published the White Paper “Care Matters” people who are volunteering—I pay tribute to organisations and we set out to transform the prospects of children in areas around the country—the country remains deeply and young people in care. We have made some grateful. It shows that when there are difficulties, the with placement stability, there has been an increase in country comes together as one to meet them. educational attainment and we have better outcomes for care leavers, but at the same time we must move Five airports in the south and midlands have been faster to close the gap. That is why it is important to and will remain closed for a period this morning, but I recognise that public expenditure has been necessary in believe that they will open later today. We are working this and it has doubled since 2000 on the needs of with the Highways Agency, the devolved Administrations children in care. That is what we have tried to do to help and representative local government to manage salt those children. supplies. It is important that every road remains safe. It is also important that we have sustainable supplies of Mr. (Sheffield, Hallam) (LD): I want to salt for what is the longest and worst period of bad add my own expressions of sympathy and condolence weather for 30 years in this country. to the family and friends of Captain Daniel Read from As for salt, one of the salt producers has announced the Royal Logistic Corps, who tragically lost his life this morning that it will produce additional salt. We serving in Afghanistan on Monday. I also want to add expect imports of salt in the next few days as a result of my expressions of sympathy and condolence to the arrangements entered into weeks ago, and we are confident family and friends of Rupert Hamer, the distinguished that, with the measures announced yesterday by the defence editor of the Mirror who died in an Transport Secretary, we will be able to maintain the explosion on Saturday, and of course to the family and road network. We are working closely with local authorities, friends of his injured colleague, Philip Coburn. and I hope that people will continue to be able to work As the Prime Minister said, as news is coming in of together for the common good. It does prove that the terrible earthquake in Haiti, all our hearts go out to Britain works best when Britain works together. the many, many people who will be so terribly affected by that natural disaster. I am grateful for what he said Mr. Cameron: I am grateful to the Prime Minister for about the Government’s humanitarian response. that answer. The pressure on supplies and the steps Given everything that has come to light in the Chilcot taken to ration salt in the last week clearly show that inquiry into the Iraq war, will the Prime Minister now lessons can be learned for the future. Can he tell us what do the decent thing and volunteer to give evidence to steps he will take to hold a review and to involve those the inquiry before people decide how to vote on his in local government, to ensure that we learn those record in government? lessons? The Prime Minister: The Chilcot inquiry has drawn The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is up a list of those people that it wishes to interview and right to say that each time we have a winter weather has invited the people on the dates that it has done. I problem we should learn lessons from it. Last winter, we will follow the recommendations of the Chilcot committee. set up the UK Roads Liaison Group, and it made three I have nothing to hide on this matter and I am happy to recommendations that we implemented—for local give evidence. Equally, at this time, I thought that the authorities to hold a six-day salt supply, for the Highways debate in the House was that the Chilcot inquiry should Agency to have a bigger reserve and for transport decide when people were heard. workers to be allowed to work longer hours to deliver the salt. It also recommended the creation of a Salt Cell Mr. Clegg: The point is that this is not just a question to ensure a fair distribution of salt throughout the for Sir John Chilcot; it is a question for the Prime country. We will review all those arrangements after this Minister’s own conscience. When the decisions were winter period, but at the beginning of this difficult spell, taken to launch this illegal war, he was not only in the the Highways Agency had 13 days of supplies, and we room—he was the one who signed the cheques. He are now building on that with orders from abroad and should insist on going to the inquiry now. People are additional production from UK mines. We are doing entitled to know before they decide how to vote at the everything that we can, and the Department for Transport general election what his role was in this Government’s has made every effort to consult all local authorities. most disastrous decision. What has he got to hide? 683 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 684

The Prime Minister: Nothing, and the right hon. (Mr. Allen). Let us be honest: there are about 50,000 Gentleman was the one who wanted Chilcot to make families in this country that lead such chaotic lives that the decisions about whom he called. He cannot on one we need to intervene and turn them round. We need to day say that Chilcot should decide and then say that he make a contract with them that a no-nonsense approach or someone else should decide what happens. will be adopted by them and by us. That is what lies On the Iraq war, we have given every single document behind the family intervention programme. We are investing to the Iraq inquiry. We have given it the opportunity to heavily in that, and in the parenting tuition that is look at every document and to ask for which documents necessary as part of it. I hope that the hon. Member for it wants to be declassified. The only documents that will South-West Devon (Mr. Streeter) will agree that that is be withheld from publication are those that directly a way forward. That is a better expenditure of money to affect national security and international relations. This help the children he wants to help than a return to the is a full inquiry being run by Sir John Chilcot. People married couples allowance. are being interviewed, rightly so, and asked for their evidence, but it is for the Chilcot committee to decide Engagements how it proceeds—that is what the right hon. Gentleman proposed. Q3. [310398] Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South) (Lab): In the past 12 months, people in Blackpool Early Intervention have turned out in unprecedented numbers for Remembrance day and Armed Forces day ceremonies Q2. [310397] Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North) and to give a civic welcome to troops returning from (Lab): What discussions he has had with hon. Members Afghanistan. Blackpool has done that because people on an all-party approach to early intervention since recognise the sacrifice being made by those who risk 9 December 2009. their lives daily. Will the Prime Minister confirm that the Government will continue their resolute action The Prime Minister: I have visited my hon. Friend’s against any extremist group, wherever it comes from, constituency to look at early intervention programmes, that seeks to disrupt and dishonour that support? and I am very happy that cross-party discussions on these matters take place. Everybody knows the importance The Prime Minister: I praise Blackpool for hosting of early intervention to help young children. the first Armed Forces Veterans day.I know that Blackpool has lost soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, and my hon. Mr. Allen: There are also tremendous economic Friend is right to say that we must commemorate all consequences of early intervention, and early intervention those who have served and made sacrifices for our bonds, social equities and many other financial country. I share his views on extremists who use freedom instruments raise money from the capital markets rather of speech in our country to foster division and incite than from the taxpayer. Will the Prime Minister please hatred and, in some cases, to incite people to kill. We encourage the Treasury to look at these imaginative and have already strengthened our powers to allow us to creative ways of raising money, so that we not only help prosecute them, and an organisation was proscribed individuals but find a long-term way of writing down yesterday as a result of our determination to do what is the national debt, thereby reducing the burden on UK absolutely necessary through the legal process. This is taxpayers? also about standing up for our shared values and showing young people in Muslim communities in particular that The Prime Minister: I am grateful to my hon. Friend we stand for values of justice, dignity and fairness. I for raising the issue of social impact bonds. They are believe that our Prevent strategy, which involves talking being looked at by the Justice Secretary at the moment. to people in their schools, churches, faith groups and If the first 48 months of a child’s life are more important mosques, is an important way of building inter-religious than the next years because of what is learned or not consensus and a belief that we can solve all our problems learned, we have to do more to help children under five. together. That is why we introduced Sure Start and the child tax credit, and doubled the credit for children in their Mr. David Cameron (Witney) (Con): After the events earliest years. It is also why we have given maternity and of last week, the Prime Minister told his colleagues that paternity leave. All these are important ways in which he would change the way he governs. Can he tell us how we can help young children in their earliest years, and I he will be different? believe that there should be a cross-party consensus on keeping them; I hope that there will be. The Prime Minister: I think that I should start by saying that the right hon. Gentleman looks very different Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): Given from the poster that we see out there. If you cannot get that the Home Affairs Select Committee heard powerful your photograph right, it is pretty difficult to get your evidence yesterday that one of the primary causes of policies right as well. Last week, we announced plans crime is poor parenting and dysfunctional families, for digital Britain, plans to improve education in our what more can this Government do to bring forward community, and plans for 70,000 jobs in offshore power. effective policies on early intervention to ensure that We also announced our new growth strategy. This is the fewer children stumble on to the conveyor belt of crime? Government who are moving forward with policy. He can have his posters; we will have the policies. The Prime Minister: If I may do so, I refer to the proposal that we are putting forward and the family Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister asks about pictures. intervention programmes that I saw in the constituency Why don’t we do a bit of market research? When it of my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North comes to Labour Members’ election addresses, hands 685 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 686 up who is going to put the Prime Minister’s picture on what he wants to do on national insurance, and not the front. Come on, hands up. [Interruption.] Four! knowing what he wants to do on the top rate of tax. He There are six of them who do not want him in the is asking people for a don’t know at the election rather Cabinet, and just four who are going to put his picture than a yes or a no; and the only policy he has that is not on their election addresses. He has been airbrushed out going to change is his policy on inheritance tax, which of the whole campaign. helps the richest persons in our society. Let us see if the Prime Minister has changed. Let us see if he is prepared to do something that he has never Mr. Cameron: If the Prime Minister wants to know done before—listen to people, and admit his mistakes. how people are going to vote, why does he not find My hon. Friend the Member for Leominster (Bill Wiggin) some courage for once and call the election? asked a very straight question. When Britain went into The Prime Minister talks about policy. The country is recession with one of the largest deficits in the industrialised fed up with his policies, but his colleagues were not world, that was because this Prime Minister thought he complaining about the policies; they were complaining had abolished boom and bust. That claim was wrong, about the weakness, the dithering and the backbiting. wasn’t it? That is what they were complaining about. Everyone can see that the Prime Minister will not The Prime Minister: As I keep telling the right hon. change the way in which he governs. Everyone can see Gentleman, we went into the recession with one of the that he will not answer the question, and that he will not lowest debts in the G7, and the reason we had one of be straight with people. Is not the conclusion of the last the lowest debts in the G7 is that we had taken action week that the Cabinet and the Labour party are too over the previous years to run down the debt that had disloyal to support him, but too incompetent to remove been run up by the Conservative Government. him? Should he not ask for the verdict of the British I think the country would prefer our policies to a people, so that we can get rid of the lot of them? person who has three policies on one day. The right hon. Gentleman needs three television election debates The Prime Minister: I must say that the right hon. because he has three versions of the same policy to put Gentleman’s airbrushed poster had better lines on it forward in the debates. than the lines that he is delivering today. He should get better lines from the shadow Foreign—[Interruption.] Mr. Cameron: The Prime Minister talks about his policies. We now know what his own election co-ordinator Mr. Speaker: Order. The Prime Minister must be thinks of his policies—yes, the Development Secretary. heard. I do not know whether he is the chairman of the campaign or the co-ordinator of the campaign: the The Prime Minister: This is what the Leader of the Prime Minister has three people co-ordinating his campaign. Opposition said only a few days ago: This is what the Development Secretary said. He said “I messed up and there is no other way of putting it, you know; that Labour I was thinking about all sorts of different things and I misdescribed “don’t… have any policies. For God’s sake, Harriet’s helping write our policy.” the manifesto!” He has misdescribed what he is doing, because we know I must say that I think that is completely unfair. After that on the health service there is no guarantee for all, the deputy leader of the Labour party took only five cancer patients; we know on police that there is no hours and 32 minutes to come out and support the guarantee about neighbourhood policing; we know on Prime Minister, whereas the Secretary of State for education that there is no guarantee of education to 18; International Development took six hours. [HON.MEMBERS: and we know on the recession that the Conservatives “Question!”] All right, here comes a question. Let us try would have done nothing to take us out of the recession something else to see if this Prime Minister has changed. and that they would have gone back to the policies of Will he now admit the truth about spending cuts? He the 1980s. When he finally wakes up to the fact that has stood there week after week and denied what everyone policies matter more than posters, he will know that his knows to be true: that there will be spending cuts. The policies are actually those of the ’80s, not those for Chancellor now says that those cuts will be the deepest 2010. for 20 years. Will the Prime Minister repeat those words? Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): Will the Government The Prime Minister: The right hon. Gentleman is back my amendment to the Constitutional Reform Bill becoming even redder—much redder than he is in his next week that will rid Parliament of parasitic non-doms? photograph on the poster. I have to say that what you see is clearly not what you get. The Prime Minister: We will look at that amendment, I have to say this to the right hon. Gentleman as well. and we will bring our view to the House at the right I wish that he could talk about policy. We are coming time. out of the most difficult recession that countries have faced. Every country around the world is facing the Q4. [310399] Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) difficult public spending decisions that the Chancellor (LD): We have heard why, however implausibly, the talked about last week. I agree exactly with what he Prime Minister will not give evidence to the Chilcot said: that every country has got to face up to it. But inquiry before the general election, but may I ask him a there is one way of facing it up to it, and that is question that he can answer right now, because I am publishing our deficit reduction plan, and another way: simply asking for his opinion? made the right hon. Gentleman’s not knowing what he wants it clear yesterday that this Prime Minister was to do on the married couples allowance, not knowing intrinsically involved in all the decision making in the 687 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 688 run-up to Iraq, so does he personally regret any of the The Prime Minister: I can say from the work that has decisions taken in the preparations for, and conduct of, been done that if we had pursued the same policies as in the war in Iraq? Is he personally sorry? the 1980s and the 1990s, 1.7 million fewer people would be employed today. It is because we took action to help The Prime Minister: I have already said that the young people into work and to help small businesses reconstruction that was done after the war effort in Iraq that the unemployment claimant count, which was 10 per was insufficient; the general view held by many people cent. or higher in some of the recessions of ’80s and who have looked into this is that insufficient preparations ’90s, has remained half that today, and we are determined were made for that. But I was part of the Cabinet that to do still more to help young people into work and made the decisions on Iraq, and I stand by the decisions those adults who are looking for work. The difference is we made. this: when it came to the recession, other parties were prepared to walk by on the other side, but we decided Q5. [310400] Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) to act. (Lab): This week, a Member of the House has resigned, with mental illness being a factor. I make no comment Q7. [310402] Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): about individual cases, but as the law stands any What is the Prime Minister’s attitude to the current Member of this House who suffers a bout of serious situation in the western Sahara? mental illness can be automatically disqualified from office, no matter what the prospects of recovery. That is The Prime Minister: I am thinking of all the issues wrong, and it would never be tolerated for a physical that the hon. Gentleman wishes me to talk about in illness, no matter how debilitating. Will the Prime relation to the western Sahara. The one thing that I Minister take the opportunity presented by the have been worried about is the growth of ethnic violence Constitutional Reform Bill to implement the Speaker’s in these areas. The one thing that we have tried to do is Conference recommendation that this wrong should be increase—indeed, double—our aid to these areas, and righted? the one thing that we have been worried about is the growth of terrorist groups in these areas. That is why we The Prime Minister: My hon. Friend has raised a very are taking the action that is necessary to dissuade important issue. The Justice Secretary and the Health people from terrorism. I have had numerous conversations Secretary are giving careful consideration to the appropriate with leaders in these areas. If the hon. Gentleman way forward, and I understand that we will also respond wishes to direct me to a specific point, I will take it up. in due course to the recommendation to the Speaker’s Q13. [310408] Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): Conference report that was published on Monday. Does the Prime Minister recall in September 2008 acclaiming the success of the 16 Air Assault Brigade Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): The first duty and 2,000 British soldiers in delivering to the Kajaki of any Government is to keep our nation safe. Given the dam a turbine? Will he tell the House why that turbine, tens of thousands of abuses of tourist visas, work visas which cost lives, has not been installed? Who makes and other visas, how confident is the Prime Minister these important military so-called strategic decisions? that he has a firm grip on this nation’s national security? The turbine was delivered at a high price and has not been installed— The Prime Minister: At every point we try to be as vigilant as possible in the way we run the services that Mr. Speaker: Order. We have got the thrust of it. are necessary for our national security. Immediately after the Detroit attempted bomb on Christmas day, it The Prime Minister: I have investigated the issue. was for us also to make sure that our security arrangements Rightly, it is asked of us why the turbine is not working, for people coming into the country were satisfactory, when it was delivered at great cost in terms of lives and and I ordered a review of those arrangements, as I told effort. Other sources of power have been found for the the House last week. Equally, we also decided that the areas that were supposed to be served, but it is still our co-ordination of our different services is an important intention that that turbine be used to create the power issue, and, facing new technology and new methods that is necessary for the economic advance that is possible. being used by terrorist groups, we had to do more to ensure the full co-ordination of all our services to deal Q8. [310403] Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Essex with potential incidents. That is another set of work teenage tearaways are being sent to a sensitive that has been put in motion. So at all times we seek to residential area in Castle Point by Essex county council be vigilant. I have to say to the hon. Gentleman that the without any consultation whatsoever. They are introduction of biometric visas and then of the e-Borders terrorising residents, elderly frail people and businesses system will be of great benefit to us in being able to with extreme bad behaviour. Does the Prime Minister identify people coming into and going out of the country, agree that people should always be properly consulted, and I hope there will be all-party support for that. and that the location of those establishments should be sensitively and carefully considered? Essex county Q6. [310401] (Cardiff, South and Penarth) council should be ashamed of putting it— (Lab/Co-op): Employment in the public sector is very Mr. Speaker: Order. We have got the thrust of it. I am important to the economy of Wales, and cuts in the grateful to the hon. Gentleman. short term would impede the recovery of the private sector. Has my right hon. Friend made an assessment The Prime Minister: No one should be expected to of the difference between the impact of the tough but suffer from antisocial behaviour. That is why we have long-term approach he is taking and of the precipitate, created neighbourhood policing units that have a immediate and unplanned cuts that are demanded by responsibility for dealing with antisocial behaviour as the Leader of the Opposition? well as with crime. It is also why we are targeting 689 Oral Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Oral Answers 690 families such as those that the hon. Gentleman mentions, the national educational challenge. We should continue whose lives are so chaotic that they are disrupting the to ensure that by 2011 there is not one underperforming lives of people around them. No pensioner, in particular, school in our country. We ought to offer the best should be expected to suffer from that. That is why next education to every child. Even if Conservative Members month we will be announcing new measures to help sneer, we will continue to finance the education of every people who are victims of antisocial behaviour, so that young person in this country. we can get quick action to them as well as deal with the problems at source. I hope the hon. Gentleman can be Q9. [310404] Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) assured that we are taking the action that is necessary, (Con): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for playing extra time. but recognise that this is a problem for many people in May I ask the Prime Minister what he is doing to the country. prevent the population of this country from reaching 70 million? Q15. [310410] Charlotte Atkins (, Moorlands) (Lab): Today’s stunning results in the schools in Staffordshire, Moorlands demonstrate 10 years of The Prime Minister: We have introduced the points remarkable achievement and a decade of investment in system for immigration. The points system is working dilapidated schools transforming them into modern because where we need no unskilled workers and need learning centres for the whole community. Why is workers who have specialist skills but not other workers it—[Interruption.]—that the hardworking students with skills, they will not now be invited into the country. and the efforts of school staff, head teachers and Of course, when people come into the country, they governors are constantly talked down by the must have a contribution to make to this country. The Opposition? points system is ensuring that net migration is falling. It is also ensuring that where we do not need workers to The Prime Minister: They can try and shout down come into the country, they do not come in. good news but we will tell people. Ten or 12 years ago there were 1,600 underperforming schools in our country Mr. Speaker: Order. I should be grateful if Members when we came to power. Today the figure announced is who are leaving the Chamber would do so quickly and fewer than 250. This a huge change that is being met by quietly. 691 13 JANUARY 2010 Withers LLP (Privilege) 692

Withers LLP (Privilege) In order to settle this matter we, therefore, require an apology in respect of both the serious allegations plus payment of our client’s costs, a substantial payment to a 12.35 charity of his choice and an undertaking not to repeat the Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member for Birmingham, allegations or any similar allegations, particularly in Yardley (John Hemming) has drawn my attention to an Parliament. e-mail he received from Withers LLP, a firm of solicitors, Your threat to make a statement in the House of Commons which could in his view amount to a contempt of the referring to our client’s alleged “spoiling tactics” in this House by seeking to intimidate a Member in his and other situations and that our client’s threatened parliamentary conduct. proceedings amount to “bullying and an attempt to gag I have decided that this is a matter to which I should opponents” is tantamount to blackmail. These allegations allow precedence. Therefore, under the rules set out at are untrue as our client is only trying to put right a serious pages 167 to 168 of “Erskine May”, the hon. Gentleman wrong to his reputation. We note that you would only may table a motion for debate at the commencement of make these allegations under the cover of parliamentary public business tomorrow. It will appear on the Order privilege. My client objects very strongly to you doing this Paper after any statements and before the topical debate and would ensure, via other sources, that the House of on Afghanistan. Commons were fully appraised of the true situation and I shall arrange for the text of the e-mail to be published not misled. in the Official Report. We deny that our client has been involved in any “spoiling Following is the text of the e-mail: tactics” at the Swan, Maypole or in Worcester. He certainly does not have, as you claim, a track record of “spoiling [Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 5:51 PM tactics”. By making such allegations you are clearly Subject: Private and Confidential aggravating the damages which you will now have to pay Dear Mr Hemming to a charity of our client’s choice. Thank you for your various e-mails yesterday. My client’s You say that you have spent time meeting my client and response to the points which you have raised in these and talking about the Swan development. Notwithstanding, it earlier correspondence is as follows. seems that you have failed to understand what my client is 1. The original leaflet and offending text trying to achieve. It is abundantly clear that the offending text referred to, All that my client wants is to vindicate his reputation as and would have been understood by those reading it to swiftly as possible. However, if a suitable correction and refer to, our client. You have alleged that the compulsory apology, costs, damages and an undertaking not to repeat purchase order (CPO) proceedings involve other parties. these or any similar defamatory and maliciously false However, it is clear from Councillor David Osborne’s allegations cannot swiftly be agreed, he will have no evidence given to the public inquiry on 14 July 2009 that alternative but to issue proceedings. he was not aware of any other parties who owned plots or We obviously also need to discuss how quickly you can who were objecting to Tesco’s proposals and presenting circulate your apology around the constituency. Clearly alternative proposals other than our client. Asda and this will have to be done much more quickly than your Sainsburys had already sold their land to Tesco. It is clear usual six weekly cycle in order to alleviate the continuing from the context of the offending text that you were only harm to our client’s reputation. referring to plots of land which are part of the CPO and Meanwhile, could you please inform us, as we requested in only the plots owned by our client. Even though he was not our original letter of 29 July 2009, how many copies of specifically named, he was clearly identifiable to the the offending text were distributed; who wrote the offending thousands of people to whom you distributed your defamatory text; who authorised its publication; who published it; and maliciously false leaflet. and the date of issue. You were clearly wrong to say that our client purchased 2. Alternative wording to those to whom the original his plots with the intention of delaying the Tesco development, leaflet was not delivered as you now admit. Moreover, we do not agree that a As previously indicated today, our client has no objection landowner objecting to a CPO of his land and who has to replace the offending text with the new text set out in made very serious alternative proposals for redevelopment your e-mail of yesterday’s date sent at 12.32 pm. can he be guilty of “spoiling tactics” and this defamatory and maliciously false allegation is strongly objected to by Yours sincerely, our client. Withers LLP] 693 13 JANUARY 2010 Haiti 694

Haiti a matter for the entire region. I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his very full response, which moves us on from the press reports that we have heard 12.36 pm this morning. I am sure that people in the Caribbean Ms (Hackney, North and Stoke who are following the debate, and people in Haiti itself, Newington) (Lab) (Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary will be grateful that Her Majesty’s Government are so of State for International Development if he will let the keen to be of assistance. House have the most up-to-date information on the recent massive earthquake in Haiti. Mr. Alexander: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, and of course I wish to pay tribute to the depth of her The House is aware that Her Majesty’s Government knowledge and experience of the Caribbean. I am sure do not have the historic links with Haiti that they have that it will be of comfort to her constituents and others with the rest of the British-speaking Caribbean; none across the country that the Government, and I am sure the less, the entire Caribbean will be looking to the the whole House, are determined for Britain to play its Government’s response to this awful tragedy. Haiti has part in response to this tragedy. had a turbulent recent history.It has very poor infrastructure and it will be reliant on international help— My hon. Friend is right to recognise that although Haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere, we have not historically had a strong development Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady will have an relationship as a consequence of the fact that the French, opportunity to develop her thoughts, but at this point the Canadians and the United States have primarily led we will hear from the Secretary of State. on development assistance to Haiti. However, as I have said, we stand ready to consider what humanitarian The Secretary of State for International Development assistance is required once the rescue phase of this (Mr. ): I am grateful for the opportunity tragedy is complete. afforded by this question to update the House on the present situation. A series of major earthquakes struck Mr. Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield) (Con): I thank Haiti last night in the area around the capital, Port-au- the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington Prince. The strongest of these was reported at 7.2 on the (Ms Abbott) for her question and the Secretary of State Richter scale. Up to 13 aftershocks have since taken for the response that he has given the House. place. Information on the scale of damage and the Throughout the country, there will be deep concern number of people killed or injured is slowly emerging. for the people of Haiti at this awful time. As the Our initial estimates suggest that some 6 million people Secretary of State said, it is the poorest country in the live in the affected area, and 1 million people in the western hemisphere, and it is the least well equipped to worst affected area. Early press reports and limited cope with such a catastrophe. As all the evidence shows, information from the United States Government and the actions taken in the immediate aftermath of the the United Nations describe numerous collapsed buildings, disaster will determine how effectively the needs that including a hospital, many houses and the presidential result from it are addressed. In this case, the whole palace. By any measure this is a terrible tragedy. international community should ensure a swift and My Department has a four-person field assessment effective response, although clearly the United States is team en route to Port-au-Prince in order to determine in the key position to provide help. the priorities for urgent assistance. We have already Will the Secretary of State give further details about mobilised a UK fire and rescue service search and the composition of the UK assessment team being rescue team of 64 people with dogs and heavy rescue dispatched to the region? When will it arrive, and when equipment. The team and their 10 tonnes of equipment will we know what further support the British Government are at present assembling at Gatwick airport and are can offer? Can he assure the House that the whole ready to deploy as soon as the airport reopens following Whitehall machinery, not just the Department for heavy snow. We are urgently looking at all options to International Development, is firmly joined up on that ensure that the search and rescue team can deploy as point? quickly as possible, including the possibility of an RAF flight. I have been informed that the United States Can the Secretary of State provide us with any currently has two search and rescue teams mobilising information about the number of British nationals who and ready to depart from Miami. The Iceland search are currently in Haiti, their situation and the steps being and rescue team is also mobilising. However, a further taken to look after them? complication facing all teams is that Port-au-Prince As I said, the United States will no doubt have the airport is believed to be unusable. We are urgently leading role in the international response. What recent assessing alternatives. conversations has the Secretary of State had with his Haiti is, of course, one of the poorest countries in the counterparts in the United States to ensure that that world. The need in the aftermath of this tragedy is likely response is properly co-ordinated? to be very great. The United Kingdom stands ready, as Many members of the British public will want to do part of the international community, to provide all they can to support the people of Haiti at this time. humanitarian assistance in the wake of this devastating What guidance can the Secretary of State give as to how earthquake. their efforts should best be directed? Can he also update the House on how the neighbouring Dominican Republic Ms Abbott: The House is aware that Her Majesty’s has been affected? Government do not have the historic links with Haiti In 2007 my hon. Friend the Member for Cotswold that they do with the English-speaking Caribbean, but (Mr. Clifton-Brown), a shadow International Development none the less, further instability and privation in Haiti is Minister, became the first senior British politician for 695 Haiti13 JANUARY 2010 Haiti 696

[Mr. Andrew Mitchell] Ban Ki-moon, the Secretary-General of the United Nations, has already issued a statement. As I understand some time to visit Haiti and spent time with the UN it, the Chinese and the Brazilians have raised concerns forces there, who are so important in these circumstances. in relation to a number of the peacekeepers they have as We hear that they have been hit hard by the earthquake. part of the UN mission in Haiti, but it would perhaps Can the Secretary of State update the House on the be more appropriate for me to take the opportunity to latest news about the impact of the earthquake on the update the House in due course, as the situation develops, UN mission in Haiti, and what discussions has he had on those and other related matters. with colleagues at the UN Department of Peacekeeping Operations in New York about the matter? Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Our total focus at the moment must be on saving lives Selkirk) (LD): I too thank the hon. Member for Hackney, and getting help to those who need it, but will the North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) for giving us Secretary of State accept that in due course and when the opportunity for this update today, and I associate the time is right, it will be necessary to have a full review myself and my colleagues with the comments made by of Britain’s emergency response process in such the Secretary of State and the shadow Secretary of circumstances? State. The horrors in Haiti this morning are utterly unimaginable, and the impact is all the worse for being the latest in a very long list of geographical disasters, Mr. Alexander: Let me associate myself with the which are complicated by political divisions and terrible sentiments that the hon. Gentleman expressed. I shall uncertainty. endeavour to answer the range of questions that he put The Liberal Democrats welcome the initiative the before the House. Secretary has announced and the speedy response he I certainly concur about the need for swift and effective indicated. Will he tell us what other forms of assistance, action, and as part of the international community we beyond the rescue teams, he is contemplating, perhaps are endeavouring to achieve that. The field assessment as the next stage of assistance with the recovery? Others team is a four-person team, and is required to give us in the European Union and from elsewhere in the world the opportunity to achieve the co-ordination of which will also be looking to see how they can assist. Will he he spoke. I can assure the House that there has been no explain to the House how all those different efforts will delay in assembling the search and rescue capability—the be co-ordinated? 64 British firefighters who are gathering at Gatwick as The international community has a desperate habit we speak, to take forward the rescue phase of the effort. of losing interest in, and forgetting, countries once the I assure the hon. Gentleman that, as I sought to television crews have gone home, so looking to the reflect in my original answer, we are working closely longer-term, will the Secretary of State give us an with our colleagues across Whitehall. Discussions are assurance that with our partners, he will re-examine the already under way with the Ministry of Defence, and of support that we provide to Haiti and other vulnerable course with the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. countries like it, and prepare help for them on a sustainable and secure basis? The hon. Gentleman asked about British subjects in the affected region. The situation on the ground is Mr. Alexander: Again, I am grateful for those remarks chaotic, and as a consequence the information remains and associate myself with the determination that the sketchy. I sought the advice of the Foreign Office minutes hon. Gentleman communicates that the United Kingdom before appearing at the Dispatch Box, and it has had should play its part. Let me deal with two or three of approximately 15 to 20 calls from family members here the specific points that he raises. He is right to recognise in the United Kingdom raising concerns about the that in any major disaster such as this one, there is a possibility of UK nationals being in the country. Two of rescue phase—and that is what our efforts are focused those identified in those calls have already made contact on at the moment. The assessment team will contribute with their families since the calls were made to the to the recovery phase and to an assessment of the Foreign Office earlier this morning. I can assure the humanitarian requirements. House that the Foreign Office is keeping the situation under very close review. In the wake of a tragedy such as this, there are always requirements for food, shelter, clean water and medicines. In relation to contacts with the United States That is why the hon. Gentleman’s point about the Government, the judgment to mobilise the 64 British co-ordination of the international effort is so apposite. firefighters was on the basis of conversations with our We are already in discussions with OCHA—the UN opposite numbers in the United States. Their assessment Office for the Co-ordination of Humanitarian Affairs— was that the need was clearly already so great that which has historically led such efforts. Tragically, because assistance in addition to the two American heavy lift of our familiarity with major disasters over recent and heavy rescue capability teams now en route to Haiti years, it has developed real expertise in the cluster would be required. It was on the basis of conversations system, whereby individual countries can slot their with the Americans that we mobilised our team. contribution into a more co-ordinated and joined-up As for what British citizens who are concerned about international effort. this human tragedy can do, my understanding is that as The hon. Gentleman asked about the European Union, we speak, a meeting of the major British agencies is which is historically one of the partners of Haiti. We taking place. As is the case with similar tragedies, there are already in discussion with European partners, and will then be a judgment as to whether to launch a we anticipate that ECHO—the European Community Disasters Emergency Committee appeal or independent Humanitarian Office—the EU’s humanitarian assistance appeals by the charities. arm, will be heavily engaged in the response to the 697 Haiti13 JANUARY 2010 Haiti 698 tragedy. Again, I will take the opportunity to update the Tom Levitt (High Peak) (Lab): With an island such as House on the continued efforts to co-ordinate those Haiti, there is always a danger that an earthquake will international efforts in due course. be associated with a tsunami, although thankfully that does not appear to have happened on this occasion. Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South) (Lab): Some of However, does my right hon. Friend recall that after the the earliest of today’s press reports talk about the tsunami in the far east, the world pledged to improve overwhelming numbers of people presenting themselves the early warning systems for tsunamis and earthquakes? with severe lacerations and broken limbs to hospitals Was there any early warning on this occasion? What are that have collapsed. Will the Secretary of State outline his thoughts about the early warning preparation and what medical elements are in the package of immediate the preparedness of the wider Caribbean? support that the UK is offering? They will help to keep Mr. Alexander: It is one minor consolation in the face people alive. of the scale of this tragedy that a tsunami was not one of the features of this earthquake. But I assure my hon. Mr. Alexander: We are delivering a capability through Friend that the issue of early warning systems has been the 64 search and rescue specialists, who have expertise central in many minds following the terrible tsunami on and knowledge. However, in the first instance, our Boxing day some years ago. I was then serving at the challenge is physically to get people out from under the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and I took the rubble. The indications are that because the centre of opportunity to visit Aceh at the time. It was clear that the earthquake affected a very built-up area of Port-au- many more lives could have been saved if there had Prince, there will be a requirement to remove people been more effective early warning systems. That is why, from the wreckage of buildings. since the terrible tragedy of the first tsunami in Aceh Alongside that, we are working with others to make and Sri Lanka, we have worked closely with the sure that the medical supplies and medical professionals Governments affected to provide that support. required to address this challenge are deployed. The I have to say that it was a great source of pride to me, Red Cross—both its international arm and the Red on behalf of all Members of the House, to see, on a Cross bodies that represent individual nations—is already recent visit to Bangladesh, that British taxpayers’ money heavily engaged. I assure my hon. Friend that this is one had helped to contribute to the disaster preparedness of of the issues that we have already been regularly discussing the people there. That had prevented the tragedy of the this morning. recent cyclone from being an even greater tragedy, as a result of early warning and the provision of cyclone (Gordon) (LD): The International shelters. There are lessons that can be drawn from Development Committee looked at the Government’s elsewhere in the world, and we have been working on response to emergencies a couple of years ago. I commend this matter for a number of years. the Secretary of State on his ability to show how that Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): Do we works at very short notice. We visited the emergency know whether the Government of Haiti are still functioning, room in Victoria street. or have they taken high-level casualties? Would it not be Can the Secretary of State ensure that the co-ordination a double disaster if, in addition to the casualties on the that follows from this disaster will avoid a lot of duplication ground, there were further political instability in an of effort, which can go to waste? That has happened island that is already pretty fragile? with other disasters. In particular, will the United Nations have the capacity to play that role, as it sought to do in Mr. Alexander: The position, I am afraid, is not yet Pakistan? clear. We know that the presidential palace has been damaged, along with other significant Government buildings. A spokesman from the Haitian Government Mr. Alexander: I am grateful for the right hon. broadcast on CNN this morning, urging help from Gentleman’s question and the knowledge and expertise international partners. However, the situation in the that he and his Committee have brought to bear on country is both chaotic and unclear. That is why we are these issues. It would be fair to characterise the United working so closely with our friends and colleagues in Nations capability as significantly improved, although the United States and elsewhere—to try to get a clearer still with significant room for improvement. I am mindful and quick assessment of the true situation on the ground. of the lessons that needed to be drawn after the Pakistan earthquake, and we have put significant effort into My final point is that the hon. Gentleman is right to strengthening the capability for immediate response recognise that a disaster on this scale would test even and co-ordination. the strongest of states; given Haiti’s blighted history, it will undoubtedly require the support of the international I have already been questioned elsewhere this morning community. on why we are sending an assessment team in the face of the immediacy of the human tragedy. It is to address Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Will the exactly the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman—so Royal Navy be galvanised as part of this important aid that we can both understand the scale of the humanitarian and rebuilding programme? Will my right hon. Friend need and deploy effectively with our international partners contact the United States to ensure that it uses its to address that need. Alongside the rescue phase, work extensive naval resources to get important aid, including is already under way genuinely to understand the needs medical supplies, into Haiti? of a country that we should not forget was desperately poor even before this tragedy. Then we will be working Mr. Alexander: I would not wish to prejudge what with the United Nations to ensure a co-ordinated and assets could be required by the international community. sustained response to this tragedy. The early indications are that although Port-au-Prince 699 Haiti13 JANUARY 2010 Haiti 700

[Mr. Douglas Alexander] and the recovery phase. But it is right to recognise that there will be a regional dimension to this tragedy. That airport was unusable this morning, there are other is why we have such strong working relationships through airports both in Haiti and the Dominican Republic that the overseas territories department at the Foreign and would perhaps provide a more immediate and speedier Commonwealth Office. In response to the question that response than would be offered by the deployment of my hon. Friend has raised, I can say that I expect that naval assets. However, I am sure that if that requirement those will be utilised. emerges, it will be given serious consideration, given the scale of the United States’ naval assets in the Caribbean Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) and the region. (LD): The Secretary of State may know that there are significant numbers of French-speaking people in the Mr. Shailesh Vara (North-West Cambridgeshire) (Con): UK, who I am sure will have a particular interest. The When the priorities for what is needed in Haiti are Churches, particularly the Roman Catholic Church, established, will the Secretary of State give an assurance have strong links with Haiti. Furthermore, organisations that food and actual materials—blankets and so on—will such as Voluntary Service Overseas have sent many be given, rather than a cheque being made over to the people with expertise in various fields to work in Haiti authorities? over the years. Can the Secretary of State make sure that those groups, among others, are called on? I am Mr. Alexander: As I said, an assessment team is en sure that they wish to assist, and will be competent and route at the moment to judge exactly what is required. able to do so. However, within the capability of the Department for International Development are exactly the kind of supplies Mr. Alexander: Of course. I pay tribute to the work of which the hon. Gentleman speaks—whether they are that Church organisations and non-governmental as basic as blankets, tents and canvas to provide shelter organisations from the United Kingdom have done for or the ability to work with other British agencies to some time to support the people of Haiti, often in provide water and sanitation; an organisation such as extraordinarily difficult and challenging circumstances. Oxfam is literally world class in the provision of water As you can imagine, Mr. Speaker, it has been a rather and sanitation in the wake of such disasters. busy morning for us in the Department, but I anticipate that in fairly short order we will bring together the We will consider all the requirements and options but relevant NGOs—those that have worked in Haiti and/or I would fully anticipate that, as has consistently been have an interest in responding to this humanitarian the case in humanitarian responses in recent years, the tragedy—so that we can update them and assess how response will involve material goods, rather than simply they can help. the writing of a cheque. BILL PRESENTED (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): The Secretary of State will be aware that the Turks and Caicos Islands, UNITED KINGDOM PARLIAMENTARY SOVEREIGNTY a British overseas territory, is not too far from Haiti. Is BILL he giving consideration to how the Haitian people Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) living in TCI—there are several thousand people of Mr. William Cash, supported by Mr. John Redwood, Haitian origin there—will be affected, and to any assistance Mr. Peter Lilley, Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory, Mr. Edward that can be given from British territories in the region? Leigh, Mr. , Mr. Graham Brady, Sir Peter Tapsell, Mr. Richard Shepherd, Mr. Christopher Chope, Mr. Alexander: I am sure that the overseas territories Mr. and Mr. Brian Binley, presented department at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office a Bill to reaffirm the sovereignty of the United Kingdom will be considering that matter. Our most immediate Parliament; and for connected purposes. priority within the Department for International Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Development has, of course, been the rescue response Friday 23 April, and to be printed (Bill 48). 701 13 JANUARY 2010 Veterans’ Welfare 702

Veterans’ Welfare the Veterans Agency, the publication of the service personnel command paper and, more recently, the pathway Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order initiative. The shortcomings in the support available to No. 23) veterans are obvious from the awareness campaigns undertaken on their behalf. Research on health services 12.58 pm by my hon. Friends the Members for North Devon (Nick Harvey) and for Dunfermline and West Fife Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and (Willie Rennie) has established that 80 per cent. of local Selkirk) (LD): I beg to move, health authorities in England and Wales and 57 per That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require the Secretary of cent. in Scotland have no idea how many veterans they State to review and report to Parliament annually on the support have treated under the priority access scheme. Local provided to armed forces veterans across the United Kingdom in respect of access to health services, access to welfare schemes and health services do not understand the scheme and so access to other support; and for connected purposes. veterans are losing out. We ask a lot of our armed forces, and it is appropriate The British Medical Association has suggested simple that in this House we should regularly acknowledge our changes that could transform the situation, including debt of honour to the brave men and women who put better training for NHS personnel on clinical matters their lives at risk on our behalf in many different parts affecting veterans and requiring a patient’s veteran status of the world. I am happy to do so again today. As our to appear on the front of his or her medical records. country has been embroiled in different conflicts in The Royal National Institute for Deaf People points recent years, it is also right that at the beginning of out that a veteran in the UK has to endure hearing loss Prime Minister’s questions each week, it has become the of 50 dB—twice that of their United States counterparts— custom to pay tribute to those who have died serving before they will be considered for compensation in the our country—as we did again today, following the sad UK. As many of my father’s generation found out to news of the death of Captain Daniel Read, of the Royal their cost, the five-year time limit imposed for applications Logistic Corps, in Afghanistan. I should like to add my for compensation is too restrictive and excludes many condolences to those already expressed by the Prime from accessing the support that they should have. Minister and others. Away from health issues, Poppyscotland’s recent research The support given to the armed forces is actively shows that the second most common problem facing debated in the House and rightly so, but today my focus veterans after mobility issues was financial difficulty, is on the veterans—the millions of people who have yet as it points out, there is no single point of delivery served our country over many different decades and for financial advice for veterans in Scotland. Research have returned to civilian life. In our own constituencies from the Royal British Legion has shown that many we come across them every day, contributing immeasurably veterans have been forced to wait an unacceptable amount to local communities while modestly playing down the of time before receiving grants to which they are entitled roles that they had and the risks that they took. and homelessness remains a real blight, with the charity I have been delighted in recent years to assist more Veterans Aid taking around 2,000 calls per year from than 400 constituents in obtaining their veterans badge. veterans who are homeless or at risk of being homeless I have been honoured to present many of them and to through debt and other problems. listen to the experiences of the people who have earned them. Like many right hon. and hon. Members, I have Looking after veterans is complex and demanding, been approached countless times to help veterans in and it is made more so by the fact that the responsibility their civilian battles as they try to get assistance with the for care and support is divided among different agencies health, financial or other problems that now confront and Departments and between the UK Government them. Through Armistice day and other initiatives, we and the devolved Administrations. I accept that the will not forget the sacrifices of those who have died, but Government’s 2008 Command Paper, “The Nation’s it is equally important that we do not forget those who Commitment”, has sought to bring Departments together. have survived but who need our help to cope. High It also seeks improvements in the ways in which local levels of war fighting over the past decade have created authorities and devolved Administrations consult the a new generation of veterans with specialised needs at Ministry of Defence on veterans issues. Despite the the same time as earlier generations who fought in the myriad Government measures and voluntary schemes, second world war and subsequently move into old age however, assistance provided to veterans across the and experience the extra problems associated with their United Kingdom remains too fragmented. Organisations service. working with veterans keep reminding us that they are In helping our constituents, we are given invaluable often reluctant to claim their entitlements and none of support by all kinds of organisations. My constituency them wants preferential treatment. includes the historic home of Earl Haig, whose eponymous We must recognise that we owe veterans a duty of charity plays a huge part in supporting veterans and care. We must spell that out. We must do better to make their dependants and in raising awareness of the challenges veterans aware of their entitlements and how to access facing them. There are countless others, such as the them. We must transform the way in which health and Royal British Legion and the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen other service providers fulfil their obligations to veterans and Families Association, whose networks of volunteers and take care of their specialist needs. To help us across the United Kingdom tackle some of the most achieve all this, we need urgently to reform the way in complex welfare issues imaginable. which we gather information about the needs of veterans The demand is great and I acknowledge that it is and how they access help. In Parliament, we should recognised by the Government. Beyond the introduction debate a Ministry of Defence report on these issues of the veterans badge, we have seen the establishment of every year. 703 Veterans’ Welfare 13 JANUARY 2010 704 [Mr. Michael Moore] Opposition Day This Bill seeks to address such issues and to allow Parliament to fulfil its scrutiny role more effectively. It [2ND ALLOTTED DAY] would establish a legally binding code on veterans’ welfare, setting out a duty of care to veterans. That Education, Training and Skills veterans covenant would include the right to an individual needs assessment, spelling out the services in which they Mr. Speaker: I inform the House that I have selected should have priority or other access. It would also the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. provide for monitoring reports on individuals’ experiences at appropriate points in their lives. The Bill would place 1.7 pm a duty on the Ministry of Defence to implement the veterans covenant by maintaining a register of veterans, Mr. (Havant) (Con): I beg to move, co-ordinating the work of UK Government Departments That this House notes with concern the increase in the number and liaising with the devolved Administrations. Finally, of young people not in employment, education or training and the MOD would be required to report to Parliament the fall in the number of apprenticeship starts; further notes that there will be a shortage of university places in 2010 and that the annually on the implementation of the code. continuing problems with the Student Loans Company will impact The debt of honour we owe to our veterans is vast. on those students beginning their studies this year; calls on the As a modest step towards tackling our dues, I beg leave Government to clarify its position on university places after the to introduce this Bill. annual Higher Education and Funding Council for England grant letter and on imposing fines on those higher education Question put and agreed to. institutions that take on more students to meet the 50 per cent. Ordered, participation target; further calls on the Government to consider proposals for the rapid expansion of apprenticeships and to free That Mr. Michael Moore, Nick Harvey, Willie Rennie, further education colleges from stifling bureaucracy so they may Bob Russell, Mr. Alistair Carmichael, Mr. Paul Burstow, meet the needs of young people; and urges the Government to , Malcolm Bruce, Danny Alexander, offer 10,000 additional university places in order to build aspiration, Sir Robert Smith, John Mason and David Cairns present opportunity and a competitive economy. the Bill. The basis for the motion is very simple: sadly, it is a Mr. Michael Moore accordingly presented the Bill. widely recognised fact that young people in our country Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on are the first and worst victims of this recession. The Friday 5 February, and to be printed (Bill 47). shocking figures are all too familiar. The number of young people not in education, employment or training is now more than 1 million—it is 1,082,000. The rate of youth unemployment in Britain, with 950,000 young people unemployed, is one of the worst in Europe. In fact, it is a sad irony that the Government were first elected in 1997 on a pledge card that they would reduce youth unemployment by 250,000. Under their watch, it has risen by more than 250,000 since then. That is a very serious challenge to us all. This is not just about youth unemployment or the fact that young people have been the first and worst victims of the recession. It looks as though the higher education and training budget has proved to be one of the first and worst victims of the fiscal crisis that the Government have created. The Opposition understand the need for tough measures and for public spending to be brought down, because that is the mess that the Government have created and that has to be tackled. However, we have called this debate because we want to hear from the Minister what measures the Government are taking to tackle the crisis, and a full explanation of how he believes the cuts that have been announced in stages over the past few months will impact on universities and colleges. I have to say to the Minister that the suspicion is that the Department he that represents has fallen victim to the political arguments in the Labour Government between—[Interruption.] The Minister denies it, but not with an entirely straight face. The arguments are between the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families, who famously said on 20 September 2009, “I said…that I wanted to see us carrying on with real terms rises in our key public services”— we will not hear the word “cuts” pass his lips—and the , Lord Mandelson, who said on 14 September 2009 that “spending in some areas will be reduced”. 705 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 706

When challenged on whether front-line services would institution for taking the steps necessary to reach the be under the spotlight, Lord Mandelson said: Government’s own announced target—in this case, of “Everything is going to have to be examined.” more people going to university. The First Secretary of State is making an example of The Opposition do not believe in artificial targets, his Department in a strategic debate that he is having such as the 50 per cent. target, and are comfortable with with some of his Cabinet colleagues about what approach the Robbins principle, which states simply that the Government should take to the fiscal crisis. If that is “courses of higher education should be available to all those who what he is arguing as part of Labour party strategy, we are qualified by ability and attainment to pursue them and who should not be surprised that it looks like, so far, by far wish to do so”. the biggest cuts have fallen within the budgets of higher That seems to us a much more sensible approach than and further education. artificial targets. At the same time, we have practical It is worth being clear about what those cuts are, so it proposals for how we could find more places for students would be helpful if the Minister explained them properly. in the crisis year of 2010. Our understanding is that a £180 million efficiency saving was announced in the 2009 Budget; a £600 million Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South) (Lab): The further reduction was announced in the autumn statements; hon. Gentleman is talking about targets and pooh-poohing and a £135 million further reduction was announced in the idea behind them. He talked earlier about units of a letter to the Higher Education Funding Council on funding, but does he not acknowledge that the lack of 22 December. That adds up to what is believed to be a targets under Tory Governments in the 1990s led to one £915 million cut. What steps is he taking to deliver of the lowest ever units of funding for university students? those reductions and what does he think they mean for the numbers of students and the quality of the student Mr. Willetts: I accept that in that period we saw a big experience? We want to hold him to account, and increase in student numbers but not a comparable increase universities need to know exactly what the cuts will in the unit of resource per student. Labour Members entail. used to make that criticism, but now they are presiding Buried at the end of the letter to the HEFC was a over a reduction in the unit of resource per student. revealing figure that brought home the scale of the That is why, this time, we have a specific proposal for reductions. At the beginning of this period, in 2007-08 2010 that avoids the problem identified by the hon. prices, the planned unit of funding—the amount of Gentleman. We have cautiously and prudently identified teaching support for students—was £4,140. According an extra source of cash that could go to universities in to the letter to the HEFC, that will fall to £3,950 in the crisis likely to be faced in the summer of 2010 of so 2010-11 in constant prices. That looks to be the key many university applications with a possible reduction—on figure, and it is contrary to all the assurances we have the Government’s plans—in the number of places. We had that teaching would be protected as part of this have said that there should be a bonus—a special exercise. How does the Minister plan to deliver those discount—for people who repay their student loans significant reductions in the higher education budget? early, which would bring extra cash into the system We also hope to hear from the Minister about what now, before Lord Browne of Madingley has a chance to the reductions mean for the number of student places. report. We are close to the 15 January deadline for applications—we understand that it was extended by a few days because The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships of the weather—but can he indicate to the House how and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): The hon. Gentleman many university applications he expects this autumn? has raised that point before. He said that it is a practical From provisional figures collected earlier in the year, we proposal, but will he tell us how he has costed it and know that we were already looking at a 12 per cent. what its cost is, including the deadweight cost of giving increase in applications for 2010 on top of applications a discount to those who would repay anyway? in 2009—and 2009 was itself a record year. We understand the reasons for those big increases in Mr. Willetts: We have made a simple and cautious applications. With high rates of unemployment, many assumption that by summer 2010, there will be £30 billion more young people apply to go to university, and of of outstanding student debt. We believe, from looking course there was a mini baby boom in the early ‘90s, at similar but not identical schemes in New Zealand which means that there is now a large number of 18 and and Australia, that it is reasonable and cautious to 19-year-olds in that cohort. We want to hear from the assume that 1 per cent. of that debt will be repaid Minister how many places will be available at universities early—£300 million. for this further surge in the number of applicants. The In order to avoid the problems now faced by Ministers, fear is that there will be an increase in the number of which the hon. Member for Blackpool, South young people applying and an absolute decline in the (Mr. Marsden) mentioned, we have fully costed university number of places available for them. places. We have not used places costing less than the That would be an extraordinary position for the average—if anything, we have costed them slightly more Government to have got themselves into. They have an highly than we believe is the average. We have said that a official target of getting 50 per cent. of people into university place costs £10,000 a year in total public university. First the Government set the target, and funding, which includes maintenance and teaching support. then last year universities offered extra places for those Over three years, therefore, the full cost in public expenditure students. Now, however, we are told that institutions of a student place is £30,000, which means that the will be fined for taking on those extra students. This £300 million that we have identified would provide an must be the first time a Government have fined an extra 10,000 places. 707 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 708

[Mr. Willetts] That is what we were promised in 2006, when the policy was launched. Since then, of course, we have had a That is a carefully costed, fully explained model that shocking report, revealing not just the many cases of does not—this touches on the concerns that the hon. maladministration and incompetence, but problems that Gentleman expressed—involve any reduction in the go back to the Department, which was endlessly chopping unit of resource per student. Those would be extra and changing the rules for student maintenance, creating places on top of the Government’s planned number of a system that was far too complicated for the Student student places. Given that we are waiting for the proposals Loans Company to administer. from Lord Browne’s funding review, and given the I hope that the Minister will tell the House, first, how inexorable looming crisis and special circumstances facing many students are still waiting for their student grant us this summer, that is the right thing to do. Unlike forms to be processed and for the money to be received; Ministers, who appear to be proposing a reduction in secondly, how many disabled students in particular are the number of places for students just when there is a still suffering from such problems; and thirdly, what surge in applications, we are confronting a practical assurance he can give us that the problems that are still problem that needs addressing, because the Conservative hanging over from last year will not interfere with the party cares about educational opportunities for young efficient handling of new claims for 2010, which are people who wish to go to university. starting now. We know, from the spirals of problems that the tax credits system, the Rural Payments Agency When Ministers announced their latest round of cuts and the Child Support Agency have got into, that the before Christmas, they talked about delivering more real problems start when we do not sort out the first education courses for students through two-year degrees. year’s problems before the second year of cases arrive. We fully understand the case for such degrees. They are That is why the issue is so important. We need to know by no means a complete solution to the pressures faced that the overhang of historical problems will not affect by universities, but they are the kind of option that they the next round of student applications. have to consider. As so often happens with the Government, however, they proposed apparently new ideas that in Mr. Tim Boswell (Daventry) (Con): Does my hon. reality have been around for some time and which they Friend, who is making such an interesting speech, concede themselves have been undermining through their own that there is an analogy with student numbers? Just as policies. Will the Minister confirm, therefore, that in the the grants and loans for last year have got mixed same week that the briefing was issued saying that we up—they might get mixed up with next year’s too—so should not worry about the public expenditure reductions the backlog of students who might have taken gap years because in future we would have so many two-year or otherwise will now impact on the further demand for courses, the HEFC announced a reduction in funding student places in the coming year. for foundation degrees, which are one way in which the shorter courses are delivered? Such initiatives are already Mr. Willetts: My hon. Friend is absolutely right and in the system. The HEFC has said that it will makes an important point. That is another reason why we believe that there will be a surge in applications in “reduce the funding provided through the targeted allocation to 2010. Some prospective students who could not get a support foundation degrees, and keep this under review in light of place last year will reapply this year. any further requests for efficiency savings.” So at the same time that this supposedly radical new Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): On approach to universities is being floated, the funding for student places, the 1 per cent. from the student loan the initiative that is supposed to bring it to pass is book and so on, do I understand the hon. Gentleman to quietly being strangled. That is an example of the be saying that the 10,000 places to which the motion Government’s spin running along completely detached refers will simply be for one year, as appears to be the from the reality. case,ordoesheexpecta1percent.prematurepay-down from that £30 billion every year, which is the only way, We are pleased that Lord Browne’s review is a funding on his figures, that those 10,000 extra places could review—something that we pressed for—and not simply continue year on year, with other cohorts going through? a fees review. We hope that it will tackle the underlying problems and pressures facing universities. Meanwhile, Mr. Willetts: Our policy is designed for the particular we are concerned to tackle the challenge that our universities problems that we will face in the summer of 2010. The will face in 2010, because we do not believe that the places are costed for three years, so the students will be Government are doing so. able to continue at university, and we are assuming that £300 million will be coming through. We have designed While we have the Minister here in the Chamber, let the measure specifically to tackle a crisis caused by me ask him about another concern, which we realise particular reasons—because unemployment is so high many students still face, namely the continuing operational and because of the surge in the birth rate—and before problems of the Student Loans Company. Let me remind we have had Lord Browne’s wider proposals on higher the House of how the Government launched the policy education reform. We need to do something for an in July 2006 and of the expression used by the previous immediate, pressing crisis, and that is what the policy is Higher Education Minister, the hon. Member for Harlow aimed at doing. (Bill Rammell). For those of us on the Opposition Benches who wrestle with our constituents’ problems, it Kevin Brennan rose— is worth reminding the House that the case for the new Mr. Willetts: I will give way to the Minister again, but system was that it would result in let me say that we are noticing a pattern: we put forward “clearer information, faster decisions, timely payments and accurate practical proposals to solve problems and we are questioned repayments.” about them by his party. 709 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 710

Kevin Brennan: It is because they do not add up. By 2009, there seems to have been rather a dramatic However, will the hon. Gentleman answer the question change. I have here an old Liberal Democrat press that I asked him earlier: what estimate has he made of release—that is even sadder—from 17 March 2009, the deadweight cost of his proposal, in relation to those which is headed: “University fees should be scrapped who already pay back early? not doubled—Williams”. By March 2009, the Lib Dems were back to their election policy that university fees Mr. Willetts: We are talking about extra payments should be scrapped. Their policy, which had been that we are bringing into the system as a result of the carefully considered after a large amount of internal discount. Of course it is true that there is a modest debate, was going, and they were back to saying that amount of repayments. We have done the calculations, fees should go. which include an allowance for the modest amount of Then we had the excitement of the Liberal Democrats’ repayments made, which will benefit the discount. That party conference. By September 2009, we had a statement is why we can afford the policy, with the £300 million from the Liberal Democrats that was reported with the coming in. That is how the policy has been costed. headline: “Liberal Democrats may ditch pledge to abolish tuition fees”. It therefore looked as though they had Let me now turn to a subject over which we have once more recognised that, sadly, their policy was not occasionally drawn a discreet veil. However, in the year feasible. It was reported that: when we are marking the 200th anniversary of the birth “On the opening day of the Lib Dems’ annual conference in of the great William Gladstone, it is right that we Bournemouth, Clegg said he had to be ‘realistic’ about whether should devote a moment’s attention to the policies of the flagship policy was affordable given the country’s mountain the Liberal Democrats. In the 200th anniversary year of of debt.” the grand old man of British politics, we are going to It looked as though the Lib Dems went into their party lavish attention on the Liberal Democrats. I enjoyed conference attempting once more to abandon their pledge participating in a radio discussion over the Christmas to abolish their policy. However, after the latest set of break about his achievements with Lord Adonis, who changes—it is only because the hon. Member for Bristol, was far more passionate in his defence of William West is an historian by trade that I am taking the House Gladstone than was Lord Steel, who was also on the through the background—we now understand that the programme. Lib Dem leader is saying that We are going to give some attention to the Liberal “he could not scrap tuition fees in one Parliament but said he Democrats because hon. Members on both the Conservative would do it over six years.” and Labour Benches would like to get a sense of where That is a subtle distinction. The policy cannot quite be Lib Dem policy on university fees currently lies. I am done in one Parliament, but that extra year, taking us sure that the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Stephen beyond the next election, suddenly makes it possible. Williams) would like to take the opportunity to clarify Given that we all know the kind of propaganda that that in his speech. However, as he studied history at the Liberal Democrats put about on the doorstep, both Bristol university, perhaps we should try an historical Conservative and Labour Members would appreciate it account, just to be clear where we are. if the hon. Gentleman could confirm, perhaps in an In 2005, his party, like my party, went into the general intervention, that what I have described is an accurate election saying that fees should be abolished. With the account of the history of their internal discussions on financial pressures facing universities, we have recognised tuition fees since the last election. We would all very that that is not a sustainable policy. We have accepted much appreciate it if he could give us today’s policy. that fees must stay, and we look forward to seeing The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Children, whatever proposals emerge from Lord Browne’s report. Schools and Families (Mr. ): This hour’s The Lib Dems started off in 2005 by saying that they policy. would abolish fees. Then, when the hon. Gentleman took up his responsibilities, he looked into changing the Mr. Willetts: Indeed. Will the hon. Member for Bristol, policy. However, I have to warn him that, although it is West tell us that policy, so that we can tell the people perhaps rather sad, I keep old copies of Times Higher who are sometimes taken in by wild and uncosted Lib Education. Dem promises exactly what they are saying? Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): I am Rob Marris: It is very sad. grateful to the hon. Gentleman for trying to extract from the Liberal Democrats their policy on tuition fees. Mr. Willetts: It is, but it also means that I have Is he aware that the students union also wants to know records of the various statements that the hon. Member where things stand with tuition fees? for Bristol, West has made about higher education policy over the years. There is an article in Times Higher Mr. Willetts: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Education in September 2008 that is headed: “Leaders I believe that the National Union of Students has said of Lib Dems to ditch fees policy”. It says: that the Lib Dem policy is as clear as mud. That is why it is so important to take this opportunity to find out “The leaders of the Liberal Democrats plan to abandon the exactly what the policy is and what the magical thing is party’s opposition to student tuition fees. Stephen Williams, Lib that they will manage to do in the sixth year that they Dem Shadow Secretary of State…said that the policy was not sustainable…Mr. Williams said that Nick Clegg, the leader of the could not do in the previous five. party, had come to this conclusion after ‘long internal discussions’.” Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con): Does my In September 2008, the original policy was apparently hon. Friend agree that even if he is fortunate enough to to be abandoned. We understood that, and that is what pin down the Liberal Democrat spokesman in the House, the hon. Gentleman said to Times Higher Education. what the spokesman says will be academic? When 711 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 712

[Mr. Simon Burns] should be collected than is currently available, so that young people will at least be guided through the maze candidates walk down streets and knock on doors, they that the Government have created of so many different will say anything, however contradictory, to any voter vocational qualifications and training routes. That is who opens the door in the hope of winning a vote. very important. Finally, the Conservatives have committed in our Mr. Willetts: My hon. Friend is so right, but at least proposals to working together to ensure that the we are trying to find out. I have been trying to put on Department for Business, Innovation and Skills will the record what we know about their policies so that we work with the Department for Work and Pensions to have an opportunity to ensure that we can authoritatively tackle the problems that young unemployed people explain the position. face. I welcome the presence of my right hon. Friend I have talked about higher education, and I want the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) beside me on briefly to ask the Minister about where we are with the Front Bench, because we are very aware of current skills and apprenticeships. There are ambitious targets criticisms about the Government’s approach. The DWP on apprenticeships that are not being delivered. That is welfare-to-work budget means jobs without training, a similar story to what happened with the ambitious and the fact that the Learning and Skills Council is targets for participation in higher education. Will the paying FE colleges to churn out paper qualifications Minister confirm that the latest quarterly figures for means training without jobs. The Conservatives are apprenticeship starts show that in the past three months, committed to ensuring that those two programmes are just 39,500 young people started a new apprenticeship? delivered in a coherent and complementary way, so that That is 26 per cent. fewer than in the same period last the work of FE colleges is focused on ensuring that year. Will he confirm that those figures, sadly, show a young people are employable, and, equally, so that decline in trend? That is despite the fact that they welfare-to-work providers focus on providing the training include apprenticeships at level 2, which is equivalent to that young people need. We propose having incentives GCSE level, whereas the Conservatives believe that to reward them for long-term performance. apprenticeships should stand for what they have always stood for historically—qualifications at level 3, which is Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): My equivalent to A-levels. We would like to hear from the hon. Friend has mentioned FE colleges. He will remember Minister about what is happening on his record on the fiasco earlier this year when colleges such as the apprenticeship numbers. We are committed to shifting former Dunstable college, now Central Bedfordshire money from the Train to Gain budget to ensure that college, in my constituency were out of pocket. That there are more opportunities for people to take up college was left £700,000 out of pocket because of the apprenticeships. Doing that, and having more places at situation regarding plans that it had proposed and further education colleges, is the right way to tackle the money that it could not get back. Will he touch on what problems that young people face in this recession. he foresees for the future of such FE colleges, after the way that they have been treated, in relation to their Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): The first line of my capital budget going forward? hon. Friend’s motion refers to those “not in employment, education or training”, Mr. Willetts: That is a widespread problem concerning FE colleges, about which there is a lot of unhappiness. which is a growing number. One difficulty for those not What happened was that the colleges had become too in education, employment or training is where on earth dependent on LSC grants to pay for their capital projects, they should go for advice. Jobcentre Plus cannot give and so, as was shown by some figures that I obtained in them advice, because it does not know where the jobs, a parliamentary answer, the proportion of the total education or training opportunities are, and Connexions capital spend that was coming out of the LSC capital seems to have disappeared for anyone who has left grant was getting higher and higher. That meant that school. Will he confirm that when we come into every £100 million was buying less capital than it used government, the work clubs that we propose—some to. We believe that it is possible, with some ingenuity, to voluntary job clubs already exist—will be able to give increase the effectiveness of the public budget to secure advice to those who are not in education, employment more FE capital. or training about how they can get back into the world of work, or back into education or training? If that The Conservatives are committed to tackling the does not happen, those people will be lost for ever. problems that young people face and to ensuring that they have extra places at university next year. We are committed to ensuring that FE colleges can thrive without Mr. Willetts: What my hon. Friend says is so true. the level of bureaucracy and red tape that they face One of the real challenges and real problems that young under this Government. We are committed to ensuring people face is the disappearance of the careers adviser that further education and training will work alongside and the shocking weakness of information, advice and welfare to work. For those reasons, I commend our guidance. The Government produce report after report motion to the House. identifying that problem—indeed, it was powerfully expressed in the Milburn report on social mobility—but do nothing about it. They have an increasingly fragmented 1.37 pm system. As my hon. Friend has said, Connexions appears not to be functioning as intended. That is why we The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual believe in having a straightforward, all-age, independent Property (Mr. ): I beg to move an amendment, careers service. It should be armed with the latest to leave out from “House” to the end of the Question information available on the web, and more information and add: 713 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 714

“recognises the Government’s commitment to maintaining investment which they had never before have even thought about. in apprenticeships, higher education and skills and its commitment They are exactly the young people who have benefited not to repeat the mistakes of past recessions, and to ensure that from the Minister’s and the Government’s programme. young people are not trapped in long-term unemployment; notes that since 1997 there have been 339,000 extra students in higher education, more than ever before, and that public funding has Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We increased by over 25 per cent. in real terms creating the world-class stand by Aimhigher, and I know that my hon. Friend higher education sector enjoyed today; further notes the Government’s will be very sad to know that the Opposition are committed commitment to managed growth in higher education to sustain to abolishing that programme, which supports the poorest quality and success in widening access, creating the most diverse young people across the country to make their way into student population ever; commends the Government’s commitment higher education. I hope that the hon. Member for to helping graduates through the downturn; further notes that South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) will investment in apprenticeships today is over £1 billion in 2009-10, clarify his position on Aimhigher when he concludes and that in 1997 there were only 65,000 starts compared to 240,000 in 2008-09; further notes the success of Train to Gain in the debate. We wish that the Opposition would match supporting over 1.4 million course starts; commends the September their words with deeds, which yet again we have not Guarantee offering all 16 and 17 year olds an apprenticeship, heard from the Conservatives today—it has to be action, school, college or training place; and acknowledges the Government’s not just words. investment of £1.2 billion in the Future Jobs Fund to guarantee a The Opposition motion talks about with the job, training or work experience for every young person unemployed for 12 months, and the graduate guarantee giving graduates Government’s higher education policies, but it does not, unemployed for six months a guarantee of a high-quality internship of course, talk about what we have achieved, so it is or training, or help to become self-employed.” important that I put that on the record this afternoon. First, let me wish the hon. Member for Havant Since 1997, the total investment in higher education has (Mr. Willetts) a happy new year. I am pleased to be here risen by 25 per cent. in real terms, while spending on in the Chamber at this early point in 2010 to put the science and research has more than doubled. That is a Government’s case yet again. It has been interesting to Labour achievement. The last decade has seen 340,000 watch with marvel his transition from a flint-hearted more students get a place in our universities because of monetarist to a caring, sharing and compassionate the 50 per cent. aspiration, making about 2 million Conservative—perhaps securing his place in some future, more home students in total. Again, that is more than distant Cabinet. ever before in our country’s history—another Labour achievement. There are more people applying to university from non-traditional backgrounds and from the most Mr. Boswell: I reciprocate, collectively, the Minister’s deprived constituencies than ever before, with applications best wishes for the new year. He mentions the year from constituencies like mine up not just by 10, 20 or 2010; was not that the target year by which 50 per cent. 50 per cent., but by 100 per cent. That has happened of young people were to participate in higher education? under this Government and is a result of such programmes Is that target being met? Is it the Government’s intention as Aimhigher, which Conservative Members would scrap. that it should be met, or has it been tacitly dropped? Once again, this is a Labour achievement.

Mr. Lammy: As a former Higher Education Minister, Mr. Marsden: My right hon. Friend is talking about and as someone who is recognised across the House as the Government’s achievements in this area and about one who is constantly aware of the detail of issues, the people from non-traditional backgrounds. Does he agree hon. Gentleman will, I know, be aware that that is an that the important steps that the Government have aspiration of this Government and that it has been taken to support and improve the situation for part-time consistently opposed by the Conservatives. , which the Conservatives had left virtually Members are very proud of the participation rate of without support in 1997, have played a significant part 43 per cent. and of the fact that more young people are in the story? in higher education than ever before. Mr. Lammy: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): I am putting the position of part-time students on the record. delighted to learn of that aspirational facet of the It is this Government who have introduced support for Minister’s great concern. Will he tell us simply when he part-time students for the first time. My hon. Friend hopes that aspiration will be achieved? will have seen that in our grant letter to the Higher Education Funding Council for England, we flagged up Mr. Lammy: If we continue to invest and to ensure, as the position of part-time students. He will also have we will, that despite having more students in higher recognised that we asked Lord Browne to look specifically education this year, there will be even more next year, in his review at the further support that will be needed we will meet that aspiration. Of course, in difficult to get more equity into the system for part-time students. economic times it is also important that students who The Conservatives have not faced up to any of that. need it get a grant to be in higher education—a grant Everyone recognises the huge £6.4 billion capital that the Tories abolished and we introduced. It is all investment in our university infrastructure across the about managed growth, and we stand clear on that. country. Science facilities are now there, whereas they were falling apart under the Conservative Government—not Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) to mention our commitment to research and teaching. (Lab): I have met many young people in Blackpool who All of that has taken place under a Labour Government. have benefited from the high aspirations put to them by the Government. Through the Government’s Aimhigher Mr. Jim Cunningham: Does my right hon. Friend programme and the reintroduction of grants, those agree that research and development is the lifeblood of young people are now going into higher education, manufacturing and industry in this country and that 715 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 716

[Mr. Jim Cunningham] training, and we believe that that was the right decision to take, given the evidence that much of the Train to any proposals that Opposition Members have to cut Gain budget is spent on training that would have happened that funding will have a major effect on the economy of in any case. We also believe this is the right decision in a this country, particularly in Coventry and the west recession. midlands? Secondly, the Minister suggested that we did not believe in unionlearn. Let me make it clear that I have Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend is right: we cannot get visited unionlearn projects and I believe that it does a back to growth without a ring-fenced research budget valuable job in spreading access and knowledge of or without a commitment to science, technology, engineering training. We do support unionlearn. and mathematics. He will have been alarmed at the £610 million cut to my Department’s budget that was Mr. Lammy: Yet another difficult-to-believe conversion proposed by the Opposition 18 months ago. They wanted from the hon. Gentleman! This cosying up to the unions, to do that 18 months ago—before the further, deeper, my God! Most people will be very surprised to see the quicker, faster cuts that were called for by the right hon. hon. Gentleman cosying up for beer and sandwiches Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) on “The Andrew with our unions across the country. We do not believe it. Marr Show” at the weekend. That would mean that there was absolutely nothing to support advanced Mr. Willetts: One thing that we like about unionlearn manufacturing, nothing to support the low-carbon is that it is very cost-effective, and we in this party industries that we need for the future, and nothing for believe in the scrupulous management of public money. our digital economy or for our life sciences. It would The amount of encouragement and training that one mean a cut to the budget that they rely on. receives for relatively modest sums of money is very attractive indeed. Mr. Cunningham: If that is the Opposition’s proposal, does the Minister agree with me that it would have a major impact on apprenticeships as well? It will affect Mr. Lammy: That is amazing: the Conservatives are apprenticeships and industry, which shows that the praising a Labour party policy—which they opposed—for Conservative policies are a sham? its cost-effectiveness. This debate is beginning to make the Lib-Dem flip-flop on tuition fees look mild in Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend knows that there is a comparison. £34 billion black hole in the Opposition’s proposals that Another new-found concern is the one about young cannot be costed. It absolutely means the loss of those people who are not in education, employment or training. advanced apprenticeships that they say they want. He The hon. Gentleman often mentions them, but not the also knows that the Opposition are not only unable to 4.6 million young people who are in work or in full-time explain where the money would come from, but are also education. That is an important figure, because it has proposing—I hope to hear more about this in the risen from 3.9 million, which was the figure in 1997. Of winding-up speeches—to cut and abolish Train to Gain. course, at this difficult time for our economy, we are That would undercut the parents of young people—often concerned about young people and, particularly, those those from the poorest communities—who will be deprived who are not in employment, but that is why we have to of the training and skills they rely on in order to move stand by them at this time and not walk by on the other forward. The Opposition are also very equivocal about side. unionlearn, which we are very proud of. I ask the hon. Gentleman to think back to the days—I think it was 1984—when he worked in the then Prime Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): Minister’s policy unit and the downturn was more On the potential future—or non-future under a Tory severe because of the absence of Conservative proposals. Government who want to scrap it—of Train to Gain, They took the view that the recession and unemployment does the Minister agree that the employer reaction to were a price worth paying. Yet again this afternoon we the implementation of that scheme, not just from big have heard nothing from the hon. Gentleman about employers but from the small and medium-sized ones, whether he would keep the future jobs fund for young has been very positive, showing that this is the type of people and whether he supports our September guarantee scheme that they want to participate in in greater numbers? for young people. They were not even mentioned. Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The We heard no proposals at all—other than 10,000 Tories are standing in the face of the CBI, small employers extra student places—to support young people at this and the millions of people who have benefited from time, even though the hon. Gentleman knows that, in Train to Gain. Those people gained qualifications that any downturn, young people who are a long way from they did not previously have. They are the engine of our graduation are the people who are most affected. I have economy—the people on the factory floor who want to yet to hear one Conservative party proposal to support improve their skills and drive the economy forward. Let those young people. The hon. Gentleman has not uttered me say that I remember the old CSEs, which meant anything and, for a party that is serious about taking young people in Tottenham being streamed off, failing power in the upcoming general election, that cannot be to get the qualifications that they should have had. It is acceptable. this Government who have put the qualifications back Once more we heard the confused policy concerning in place under Train to Gain. 10,000 extra university places in priority subjects for one year. The right hon. Member for Witney repeated it Mr. Willetts: Let me clarify our position on two at the beginning of the year, but said nothing about the points that the Minister has made. We believe in refocusing dead-weight cost of £300 million and the fact that Train to Gain on apprenticeships and pre-apprenticeship young people are already paying it back. Nothing has 717 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 718 been said about that cost; and very importantly, nothing (Slough) (Lab): On exactly that has been said about whether the hon. Member for point, I have been approached by the mother of an Havant has received permission from the hon. Member autistic constituent whose travel to the Guildford college for Tatton (Mr. Osborne) to increase public borrowing where he does a music degree was paid for last year. A to meet that extra cost. The increase is inevitable, because taxi driver has taken him to college since last term, but the Government borrow the money. The proposal would the student has not received his funds and the taxi add to the current deficit, which the hon. Member for driver has not been paid. Nobody is asking for more Havant says he is against. I see him squirming, because information; the work just has not been done. If the he is not used to not doing his maths, but he would add Minister could look at the case, he would really help to the deficit for the taxpayer, and the policy is uncosted. that anxious student, his anxious mother who has just There is also the question of who the Conservatives been diagnosed with an illness and the small taxi company would really help. Which students would be most likely that is losing money because of the problem. to pay back that money? What constituencies would they be likely to live in? Surely they would be from Mr. Lammy: I am happy to ask the chief executive of better-off families. The policy feels like the Conservatives’ the Student Loans Company to look specifically into position on inheritance tax—benefiting the few over the that case. By necessity, all such cases are complex and many—and that cannot be a sensible way to proceed. there is an onus on the company to ensure value for money and probity in the applications that are made. Mr. Willetts: I should like to make the situation However, my hon. Friend refers to a situation in which absolutely clear. Extra cash would go to the Exchequer the student previously received funds, so I am happy to because the policy would involve the early repayment of look into what has happened. student loans. The people who would benefit are marginal Importantly, overall we are doing all that we can to students who, otherwise, would not have got places at help young people during this difficult time. The foundation university; and we all know that, sadly, those students stone of much of that work is the young person’s are most likely to come from less-advantaged backgrounds. guarantee, and on that point I should like to clarify our Like so many policies from today’s Conservative party, amendment. We announced in December that that it is a highly progressive measure. guarantee, including the future jobs fund, would be available to young people after six months of unemployment. The £1 billion future jobs fund is part Mr. Lammy: How can another form of borrowing be of the Government’s overall investment of £5 billion to a highly progressive measure? Will the hon. Gentleman help young people back to work during the recession. confirm that it is another form of borrowing? The White Paper, “Building Britain’s Recovery”, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work Mr. Willetts: No; it is not. and Pensions published before Christmas, announced that the young person’s guarantee will be extended, so Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman says from a sedentary that all 18 to 24-year-olds still unemployed after six position that it is not, but I must put on the record that months will be guaranteed access to a job, training or that is a mistake. He does not understand the way in work experience. This will be supported by more time which Government finances work, and again the public with their personal adviser and a proper personalised cannot take that proposal seriously. back-to-work plan. The hon. Gentleman rightly referred to the problems that we have had at the Student Loans Company, and I Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) have been at pains to ensure that, on this issue, the (Con): While the Minister is on the subject of guarantees— House has been kept fully informed at every stage. I and I apologise for drawing him back to the student shall do so again today. The company informs me that loans issue—he did not clarify the position for January by 11 January, 918,600 students had had their student and February admissions. He will know that a significant finance approved. That is 48,000 more than at the same proportion of students enrol in those months, so can he point last year, and I hope that the whole House will give the House an absolute assurance that they will have join me in welcoming the assurance, which I have received no problems with their finances? from the company chairman, that he is taking the action that is required to improve the service so that Mr. Lammy: The process for this year began just students and their parents receive the service that they before Christmas. It is under way and it is going well at rightly expect. this stage. There is a commitment from the Student I know that there has been concern about students Loans Company—from the chair and chief executive, who have applied for disabled students’ allowance. Just right through the company—to act on the report by over 19,000 applications have been made this year: Sir Deian Hopkin to ensure that it does not make the 6,000 have been approved; and more than 9,000 await mistakes that were made last year in processing and further information from the applicant or the assessment scanning, or in people’s inability to contact the company. centre. The hon. Gentleman will understand that every I am sure that, like me, the hon. Gentleman will continue year students take into their own hands the process of to hold the company to account to ensure that that going to receive their medical assessment, and I hope he commitment is honoured. recognises that about 70 per cent. of those students present with dyslexia. Many take some time to go Rob Marris: My hon. Friend has set out the considerable through the assessment process, but over the exam achievements of this Government in higher and further period their many requirements prompt them to move education and employment for young people. We need quickly through the process. to protect research and investment in education and 719 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 720

[Rob Marris] need to use money effectively. I hope that hon. Members will recognise that families across the country are making training to hasten the economic recovery and employment, cuts to their budgets of much more than 1 per cent. especially in manufacturing. However, how could that The Chancellor, in the pre-Budget report, asks for be done with a £915 million cut in higher education? further savings of £600 million in 2010-11 and 2011-12, Would further education pick up the slack? but we have not yet had the comprehensive spending review. That will come later in the year, so it is wrong to Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend asks a good question—he give the impression that there is a £900 million cut in the raised the same issue before Christmas—and if I may, I next financial year. There is nothing of the kind. There will come to that point later. We are supporting graduates is a saving that the sector has to meet, but there will be a at this time. We are committed to internships and I am small cut of 1 per cent. in the teaching grant. We are pleased by the level of applications from young people committed to continuing to invest in capital spend to in the graduate talent pool, and the fact that employers ensure that the infrastructure is in place. are coming forward in their thousands with internship places. The regions are acting to ensure that young The Opposition have said that they would make people have something to do and can acquire the skills deeper cuts, quicker and sooner. That is what the right that industry and business say that they need. A range hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) said at the of opportunities is being provided across the country, weekend. Previously under the Tories we saw unrestricted and the Small Business Federation—as my right hon. and unfunded university expansion, with institutions Friend the Prime Minister announced—has been able going to the wall, and that is what would happen if they to support our drive to ensure the provision of internships. took £610 million out of the HE budget—as they proposed 18 months ago—and if even more severe cuts We are also ensuring that there are 24,000 extra were made. We would see failing financial support, places for postgraduate study in the system, as well as stagnating student numbers and the undercutting of more volunteering opportunities and support for young research and science. I remind the hon. Member for people who want to set up small businesses after graduation. Havant of the Save British Science campaign of those Mr. Marsden: My right hon. Friend mentioned the days. That is the absolute opposite of what we have importance of the regional dimension in the Government’s now, with further investment in science and research— initiative. I know that the Northwest Regional Development Rob Marris: I am somewhat reassured by what my Agency is playing a critical part, together with HE and right hon. Friend has just told the House. However, he FE institutions. Does he think that the potential for mentioned a 1 per cent. cut, and I agree that, while such action in the future would be helped or hindered hard, that is belt-tightening for these difficult times. The by the abolition of RDAs, as suggested by the Opposition? shadow Minister referred to a 5 per cent. cut in the unit of funding between that for 2007-08, at £4,140, and that Mr. Lammy: My hon. Friend is right that we have for 2010-11, at £3,950. Can the Minister explain the relied on RDAs to be responsive to the very different difference, or has the shadow Minister got his figures industrial and jobs situations in their areas. They have wrong, trumpeting a 5 per cent. cut when it is in fact a connections on the ground and have drawn up sector 1 per cent. cut? plans and engaged with local authorities. That is not something that can come solely from the centre, and I Mr. Lammy: The shadow team has got its figures am surprised and staggered that the Opposition would wrong. In the Budget last year, we asked HEFCE to abolish RDAs, which have done so much to ensure that find a cut of £180 million. In addition to that, we asked this downturn has been a lot less severe than it might for a further £135 million cut in the grant letter for this otherwise have been for young people. period, which would account for a cut of about 4 per cent. in the overall budget for this financial year. The David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): I have had £600 million is for future financial years, and therein eight years of first-hand experience of one of the Minister’s lies the difference. This is set against a backdrop of a RDAs—the Welsh Assembly—and I can assure him 25 per cent. increase in investment, and against a backdrop that the only jobs created there were for fellow civil in which the Government commit more than £12 billion servants at very high public sector rates, and with of funding to higher education and the sector is able to pensions to boot. I hope that I might one day be able to raise more than a further £7 billion in investment from persuade my hon. Friends that not only should they get private, commercial and charitable sources. It is able to rid of the RDAs, but they should follow that up with do that because of the investment that we have made getting rid of the Welsh Assembly, which purports to do previously. the same thing in the Principality—and the , too. Mr. Willetts: Will the Minister just confirm that the figures that I gave in my speech were directly taken from Mr. Lammy: The people of Wales, who democratically the annexe to the letter sent to the HEFCE, which elected the devolved Assembly, will be offended by that showed that the unit of support had decreased from caricature of it as a regional development agency. £4,140 to £3,950? Those are not my calculations; they In the grant letter to the Higher Education Funding are two figures that appear in the document. They show Council that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of the 5 per cent. cut to which the hon. Member for State issued last month, he asked the university sector Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) refers. to make relatively modest cuts efficiently. The cuts will be made in a way that reduces the impact on front-line Mr. Lammy: As I have said, the cuts in the sector services. For example, the planned reduction in funding amount to the £180 million to which we referred previously for teaching is only around 1 per cent. of the overall and the £135 million to which we are referring now. Of budget. It is our belief that, in times of pressure, we course that affects the unit of resource, but that must be 721 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 722 set against a background of further investment. Indeed, made, yet again, this afternoon to position itself as the we are able to increase that further investment this year, party that supports students. With that, I give the Floor notwithstanding the efficiencies that we have asked of to the rest of the House. the sector, and that is the point. The picture is very different from the one that we inherited in 1997, which 2.15 pm is why we should be proud of the increase in participation and the facilities across the country that have resulted Stephen Williams (Bristol, West) (LD): I do not know from this Government. We are clear that this sector, like whether this is the case for some or most hon. Members, others across the country, has to assist in these difficult but the 1979 general election is the first that I can times, but it does so against a backdrop of our recognising remember, so I shall start by discussing a historical that higher education is key to future growth and that point, just to humour the hon. Member for Havant we must continue to ring-fence science, technology, (Mr. Willetts). That last Labour Government ended engineering and mathematics. with a miserable winter, and a crisis in the economy and in the public finances, so we have been here before. Of Mr. Hayes: I know that the Minister would want the course, that was followed by an even worse situation: House to understand this fully. He has spoken of a 1 per the recession of the early to mid-1980s, when we saw cent., cut but in answer to the intervention from my large-scale industrial shutdowns, mass unemployment hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) and devastated communities, including the one where I about the unit of resource he acknowledged that there grew up in the south Wales valleys. Tragically, many of was a 5 per cent. cut. Is the Minister arguing that other the people who lost their jobs at that time, particularly increases mean that there is a net 1 per cent. cut, or was if they were over 40, never found meaningful or well-paid he wrong to start with? The cut cannot be both 1 per employment again. cent. and 5 per cent. Unemployment is rising again at the moment. In my constituency, it has almost reached its level 13 years Mr. Lammy: The hon. Gentleman has failed to listen ago, when this Government came to office. In the carefully to what I have said, because I have made the neighbouring Bristol constituencies, in particular Bristol, position clear. We are talking about an addition in the North-West, it has exceeded the level at that time. This grant letter that we issued just before Christmas. Our recession hits the young in particular, who are the topic position stands in direct contrast to the Conservatives’ of this debate. proposals and attitude to higher education in the past, and to the deeper cuts that the right hon. Member for Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): The hon. Witney (Mr. Cameron) has outlined already. Gentleman refers to 1979 and what happened subsequently. Does he agree that the savage process of de-industrialisation Fiona Mactaggart: The facts on the ground in my that began at that time has caused terrible damage to constituency show that we have made a real difference our economy and made it unbalanced, and has meant in improving people’s skills. We were a long way behind that there are fewer of the opportunities for apprenticeships most of our neighbours, but Slough has really made and training that manufacturing used to provide? progress. This is not just about the colleges and the local authority; this is about a real partnership between business, Stephen Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for training providers and local community organisations, what he said, because I agree with much of it. I particularly which was initiated by the then Secretary of State with agree about the callous indifference shown by the responsibility for universities when we had a skills summit Government of the day to the consequences of their in Slough, and has made real difference. One of the policies. I recall that when I arrived at Bristol university difficulties that we have recently encountered relates to at the end of the miners’ strike—arguably the strike Thames Valley university. It has chosen to relocate out made matters worse—I had to explain to many of my of the town, which has local people— new-found friends from other parts of the country what Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. I am it was like to grow up in a declining industrial area sorry to say that the hon. Lady is starting to develop her where that decline had been precipitated, and the incline intervention into a speech. If she could now turn it to climb had been made much steeper, almost deliberately briefly into a question, that would be helpful. as a result of Government policy. We must ensure that we do not fall into that same situation again. Fiona Mactaggart: The last two words that I said were “what can”, and they were the first two words of David T.C. Davies: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman my question. What can MPs, the Government and local for giving way to the grandson of a miner from the bodies do when an autonomous university takes a decision south Wales valleys. Can he confirm that Labour in the that damages the opportunities for people in a particular 1960s, under one Mr. Anthony Benn, shut area? down far more coal mines than Mrs. Thatcher did in the 1980s? Mr. Lammy: These are rightly matters for the funding councils, and all Ministers have to tread lightly with Stephen Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his autonomous institutions. I hope that my hon. Friend intervention, but I do not think that we want to spend has made representations to the relevant funding council. the entire debate discussing what happened in the ‘60s, I am happy to look closely at the specifics with regard ‘70s and ‘80s. We want to focus on what is happening in to Thames Valley university, but I am glad that she this second decade of the 21st century. recognises the investment that has been made and the Young people are bearing the brunt of this recession. threat that exists from the Conservative party, The unemployment rate among 18 to 24-year-olds is in notwithstanding the half-hearted attempts that it has excess of 17 per cent., 40 per cent. of the total number 723 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 724

[Stephen Williams] The hon. Member for Havant took us through what he described as the historical journey of our policy of unemployed people is accounted for by 16 to 24-year-olds development, but he left out several stages. He mentioned and a fifth of young people who are without work have Gladstone, who was at one point the rising hope of the a degree. This is the worst graduate job market for a stern and unbending Tories but over the course of his generation. It is particularly apposite at the moment to career became the people’s William. Political parties—the remember that this is the first generation of graduates Liberal party, the Conservative party or the Labour who have left university under the new top-up fees party—are not frozen in aspic, never to develop their regime, with £9,000 of student debt. I assure the hon. policies, have a rethink or respond to circumstances. We Member for Havant that I shall deal with that point all change over time. That was the situation in the shortly. The recession also compounds the situation of 19th century, and it is certainly true of the 21st. those at the other end of skills achievement who are not Political parties have to respond to events and, in education, employment or training. The number of occasionally, review where they are coming from. I NEETs is now heading towards 1 million. That truly acknowledge that we had difficulties with our own shocking state of affairs illustrates the stagnation of review of higher education policy. We started that policy social mobility after 13 years of a Labour Government. review in a completely different economic environment, We need emergency measures to help the young back in 2006-07, and I do not think that any of us really unemployed, whatever their skill set might be. The foresaw the economic catastrophe that was going to Minister mentioned that the Government had already come our way. We have been honest, however, in saying amended their own training guarantee. It was originally that we are now not going to be able to say some of the set at 12 months, so that anyone over the age of 24 who things that we would have liked to say at the next had been unemployed for 12 months could get training. general election. All three parties are going to have to It is now set at six months. The Liberal Democrats have face up to that economic reality. suggested that there should be a 90-day promise, and On principle, however, I still think that tuition fees that no young person should be unemployed for more are a rotten way of funding higher education. They are than 90 days. We would bridge the gap by offering paid, unfair to students; it is not good to load people up with funded internships. Those unemployed people are being debt. If the Browne review, about which I will know a funded anyway by the DWP through their jobseeker’s lot more after 3 o’clock this afternoon, leads to increased allowance, and it would be much better to pay £55 a tuition fees and a market in higher education, many of week so that they could take up an internship in a the things that we have warned about over the past company. decade will come true, and people will find it increasingly The public sector, including the House of Commons difficult to access higher education. and the rest of the parliamentary estate, could certainly do its bit on that front. There are many things that we We would still like to remove tuition fees; that is could say about internships, and the detrimental effect our principled stance. We recognise, however, that that that they have on social mobility and fair access to some cannot be done immediately, at the start of the new professions, but Parliament could certainly do its bit Parliament in 2010. Instead, we would phase them out and give more funding for the interns that we all rely over a six-year period, starting with the people who on— were in the final year of their degree. That would mean that every student would be better off, having reduced Rob Marris: Not all of us. their debt burden by the end of that six-year period. I hope that that clarifies matters for the hon. Member for Stephen Williams: Many of us rely on them in order Havant. to carry out our parliamentary work, and I am on record as saying on several occasions that our budget Mr. Burns: I am grateful for that clarification. As I for resourcing staff placements in Parliament should understand it, the Liberal Democrats’ manifesto reflect that. In the present context, paid internships commitment will be to phase out tuition fees over six instead of JSA would provide a much more productive years, rather than to abolish them outright. Is that and meaningful experience for those young people at correct? what should be the start of their working careers. In the longer term, we also believe that there should Stephen Williams: I am not quite sure what difference be more funding for apprenticeship places. There happens the hon. Gentleman is trying to tease out. We to be common ground on this matter between both would phase out tuition fees so that, at the end of the Opposition Front Benches. We believe that the funding six-year period, they would be abolished and would no should be found from the Train to Gain budget, especially longer feature in the funding mechanism for higher for the off-the-job training costs of those who are education. taking up apprenticeships in small and medium-sized enterprises. Mr. Burns: I am grateful for that sort-of clarification. Also in the longer term, there should be a fairer way Does the hon. Gentleman think that it is somewhat of funding higher education than simply loading more misleading for a Liberal Democrat press release on debt on to students. On that note, I have informed the 18 December to state: Speaker’s Office and those on both Front Benches that, by sheer coincidence, I am going to give the Liberal “Liberal Democrats renew pledge to abolish tuition fees”? Democrats’ views to Lord Browne for his review of It goes on to say: higher education at 3 o’clock today. I am sorry that I “The Liberal Democrats have announced that they will keep might therefore not be here for the final moments of their policy of abolishing university tuition fees in their manifesto this debate. for the 2010 General Election.” 725 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 726

There is no mention of phasing them out over six years. I think that I have now said enough about Liberal This is a reiteration of the Liberal Democrats’ original Democrat higher education policy. I entirely welcome commitment to abolish tuition fees. Another thing discussions of Liberal Democrat policy, but if Members that surprises me is the disclaimer at the bottom of the want to embark on a general discussion, the best way to press release: ensure that that happens is for the Minister for Higher “The views expressed are those of the party, not of the service Education and Intellectual Property to the leader provider.” of his party, the Prime Minister, and to ask him to call Stephen Williams: I congratulate the hon. Gentleman an election. Then we can get on to the hustings and and his colleagues on the Front Bench or in the Whips engage in such a discussion. Office, or whoever has been feeding him these press I, at any rate, am setting out what my party will offer releases. students at the general election. Both Conservative Front I repeat that all political parties have to respond to Benchers and the existing Labour Government will be the dire economic circumstances in which we find ourselves. saying to students “Wait and see what happens”, rather We have made it clear that, on principle, we do not as people said before the 1924 or the perhaps the believe that tuition fees are a fair way for students and 1923 election. They will say “Wait and see what is in graduates to contribute to the cost of their higher Lord Browne’s review.” I think that students, whether education. Over time, we would phase out that funding or not they like what is offered by the Liberal model so that, at the end of six years, tuition fees would Democrats—we recognise that ours is not a perfect form no part whatever of funding for higher education. solution—will at least give us credit for offering them I do not think that I can be any clearer than that, so I an alternative rather than saying, as the Conservative shall now move on to the other elements of my speech. and Labour parties will both be saying, “Wait and see what the review comes up with. We are not going to give Mr. Burns rose— your generation a meaningful choice.” Stephen Williams: I have been quite generous to the hon. Gentleman. I have already given way to him twice, Mr. Binley: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? and that is where I am going to end it. Stephen Williams: Yes, but this is the last time I shall Mr. Jim Cunningham: We now understand the Liberal give way on this subject. Democrats’ stand on tuition fees—or, at least, I think we do. We have a rough idea of what it is, anyway, but Mr. Binley: I am confused, as many people in the the hon. Gentleman has not yet told us what they would country will be. Will the hon. Gentleman tell us why the do with the outstanding debt. Liberal Democrats have chosen six years, and will he Stephen Williams: That is an interesting question. At explain the economic thinking behind that? Is there any no point—either in 1998, when my party initially opposed special formula which we need to know and which will the introduction of tuition fees; in 2004, when we help my constituents? opposed tripling them to £3,000 a year; or at the 2005 election, when we said that we were committed to Stephen Williams: I think that we have engaged in abolishing them—did we say that our policy was enough discussion on this subject. We shall welcome the retrospective and that we could wipe out the debts that debate when the hustings finally arrive. The hon. Gentleman had already been incurred. I do not think that any party could have intervened on the hon. Member for Havant would say that. I do not think that we have ever implied at any point to ask exactly what the Conservative party that any policy of ours would be retrospective. If it would be saying. helps the hon. Gentleman, I am happy to place that on record now. Mr. Binley: I have asked you. Mr. Cunningham: I think that the hon. Gentleman is Stephen Williams: The hon. Gentleman could have misunderstanding me. I am not trying to twist any told us what he will be saying to students in his constituency policy that the Liberal Democrats are expounding. I am about what the Conservative party is offering. He cannot saying that, if they abolished tuition fees, even after six give a clear answer. At least I have an answer for years there would still be an outstanding debt that students. would have to be either repaid or abolished. I am merely asking him where he stands on that. Mr. Willetts: Will the hon. Gentleman clarify one Stephen Williams: I do not think that any party could point? Is his party proposing to replace the income that reasonably say that it was going to abolish a debt that universities will lose if—in some way unspecified—fees had been contractually entered into and incurred for a are abolished? service in higher education. That is why we are saying that we will phase out tuition fees over six years, starting Stephen Williams: Yes. It has consistently been our with final year students, so that there will be no further position that the income hypothecated from fees that accumulation of debt. We would not abolish the debts universities currently receive from the Treasury via the incurred by students who are currently in the system Higher Education Foundation Council should continue. during their first or second year. They would still have In cash terms, there is very little difference in the short to make repayments of that element of the debt. However, term in any event. The Treasury continues to hand over as they enter the final year of their degree courses a the roughly £3 billion a year equivalent of fee income, further £3,000 worth of debt will not be added to the and it will be quite a long time before the present debt that has already accumulated. Over time the next generation of graduates repays that money in cash cohort of graduates will be better off, and after six years terms. What we are focusing on is, in fact, an accounting all graduates will undoubtedly be better off. [Interruption.] difference. By the end of that six-year period we will 727 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 728

[Stephen Williams] which the current Prime Minister and the former science Minister, Lord Sainsbury, said that the Government certainly have found a better way of funding higher would ring-fence funding for science, yet the pre-Budget education in the long term. As I shall say to Lord report implied that the science budget was one of the Browne very shortly, I hope that his review will take an options for cuts. If it is not, why did the pre-Budget open-minded approach not just to an extension of the report imply that it was? fees model, but to alternative models that have been The pre-Budget report also mentioned two-year degree proposed and are worthy of consideration. courses. I am not necessarily conceptually opposed to Let me now leave the subject of central Government, them, if it is possible for students to complete, say, for local government has a role as well. I was pleased to vocational degree courses in a condensed period of two note on Monday this week that Bristol city council, rather than three years. Foundation degrees already which is now under Liberal Democrat control, has exist on the basis of that principle, and I see no reason welcomed 19 new apprenticeships in fields as diverse as why it should not be considered for other degrees. security services, recycling, finance and the museum However, we should bear in mind the practical implications, service. However, it is not just the state that has a given that this country is a signatory to the Bologna contribution to make. A contribution can also be made process. Perhaps we could hear from the Government by social enterprise, which is a theme that I have raised what discussions have taken place about the possibility many times during debates of this sort. I am thinking of a shorter English degree course. English degree courses particularly of organisations such as Aspire, which, in are already among the shortest in Europe. Surely, if my constituency and elsewhere in Bristol, gives work to there is to be a fundamental reform of higher education people who are not in education, employment or provision, it should be well thought out, and the result training—as well as recent offenders—in, for instance, of a review rather than a knee-jerk response to what we ground maintenance, window cleaning and other hope are short-term budgetary pressures. practical skills. The motion also mentions freeing up further education. That social enterprise and many others would benefit Last night I was pleased to respond to a speech given by from more flexibility on the part of both central Professor Alison Wolf on the occasion of the launch of Government and local government in the awarding of her book “An Adult Approach to Further Education” contracts. The Government have a multi-billion-pound at the Institute of Economic Affairs. Among her many procurement budget, but far too much of it is spent interesting comments was the observation that further with large companies rather than small and medium-sized education is treated unfairly in this country, particularly enterprises or social enterprises. Charities also have an in the light of the resources given to higher education. important role to play. I have often mentioned Fairbridge, We believe that in the long term there should be a more which is based in my constituency, and I recently visited level playing field, especially when further education is the Bristol Foyer in the city centre. All those organisations delivered in a further education or community college work hard to provide young people with an informal context. route back to learning and employment. In conclusion, we need a fairer system of funding In the long term, we need to develop a low-carbon across higher education, further education and economy in which people also have digital skills. Another apprenticeships. If we are to have that fair and open Liberal Democrat policy that does not receive much intellectual—if not financial—market, students must attention from the other parties involves the offer of be well informed through receiving impartial advice bursaries to enable people to study stem subjects at and guidance. So far in this recession, young people university. That is important, as is the advice given to have borne the brunt of our worsening economic children at school on the opportunities that are open to circumstances, and they need measures to help them them, so that they know that a career in engineering is now, but in the long run, it is through education and not only worth while in itself but an important contributor skills that we can drive social mobility and build a to the finding of solutions to the challenge of climate sustainable and prosperous future. change. The Conservative motion mentions the Student Loans 2.40 pm Company. I hope that the Minister will confirm not Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): I only that the existing, or in some cases the new, management begin by congratulating the Opposition for once—this of the company has learnt the lessons of the debacle of is not something I often do—for calling a debate with the past year, but that he is tracking its progress to substance. The subject is very important in all our ensure that the next tranche of applicants do not face constituencies and throughout the country. People in the same situation. Barnsley and Doncaster, the towns I represent, know Mention has been made of the £600 million of further only too well how difficult it is to come through a cuts in higher education that were proposed in the recession. We particularly remember the 1980s, of course, pre-Budget report. The Minister said that there be no when the Thatcher Government decided to close all our comprehensive spending review. That was, of course, pits almost overnight, thereby making 30,000 people the choice of the Government and the Chancellor, redundant at a stroke and consigning a generation of rather than the result of some external factor visited on young people to the scrapheap. The catchphrase at that them. However, the pre-Budget report specifically time was that unemployment was a price worth paying. mentioned that those cuts would be imposed on the existing arrangements for student maintenance. Will David T.C. Davies: Is the hon. Gentleman not aware the Minister clarify what he thinks will happen to that a significantly larger number of pits were closed student maintenance, and also to the science budget? under the Labour Government between 1964 and 1970? We are still in the 10-year guarantee period during Why do Labour MPs always forget that? 729 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 730

Jeff Ennis: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman minimum of six months. We have achieved that through has raised that point, and I shall address it. He mentioned the local authority and partner organisations deciding the fact that in the 1960s Tony Benn closed more pits to match the DWP contribution; indeed, Barnsley than Mrs. Thatcher and Mr. Heseltine ever did. That is metropolitan borough council is contributing £2.5 million absolutely right, but let me explain the difference. In the from its own budget to the project. In other words, we 1960s, a lot of the pits that closed were worked out; are putting our money where our mouth is. Barnsley everybody who has ever been involved in the mining council is one of only 14 Labour councils left in the industry knows that a pit has only a specific lifespan country, but after the next elections—the general and before the coal is worked out. All the pits we closed in local government elections might be held at the same the 1960s were worked out. I shall give the hon. Gentleman time, in May—there will be a lot more Labour councils, a classic example. My local pit, Grimethorpe colliery, and also the retention of the Labour Government. where my dad worked, closed in 1993 under the Heseltine Over the next two years, the council will create 412 pit closure programme. jobs, with another 162 provided by partners in the Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am reluctant to stop public and voluntary sectors, and it is hoped that a the hon. Gentleman, but I should just say that it is the further 40 jobs will come from the private sector. Therefore, next debate that is about energy security. I think he is in a total of 644 such jobs will be created in Barnsley over the right debate and has been led astray by the hon. the next two years. So far, 178 people have started on Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies), but it the programme since it was launched. Barnsley council, would be good if he could now bring his remarks back through its various departments, already has 149 people, to education. the primary care trust has two, Barnsley Hospital NHS Foundation Trust has six, Voluntary Action Barnsley Jeff Ennis: You are absolutely right, Mr. Deputy has six, South Yorkshire Joint Secretariat has one, Speaker: I have been led astray. The hon. Gentleman Barnsley college has two, Barnsley Community Build has drawn the comparison, however, so let me say that has five, Berneslai Homes—the arm’s length management when the Grimethorpe pit was closed it had 60 million organisation for the council houses in Barnsley—has tonnes of workable coal left, and in the last six weeks of five, and Priory Campus, in Lundwood in the constituency production it made £250,000 profit. What Government of my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, Central of any persuasion would be so insane as to close a pit in (Mr. Illsley), has two. such circumstances? I would hope that Opposition Members have learned that lesson from history. From what we A unique aspect of the Barnsley scheme is the fact have heard from them so far today, it appears that they that it is providing wrap-around services to the people might have done so, so perhaps their party is now more being employed under it. That will be the key to its compassionate. success, and it should be replicated across other schemes. The features of the wrap-around service include the This is an important debate, and it gives Labour provision of a rapid recruitment service. The aim is to Members the chance to shine a light on the raft of get people on to the scheme within six weeks of the measures that the Government have introduced since original application, when they have been out of work we came to power to support young people in their for, say, 12 months. The scheme is achieving that average, education, skills and training in times such as the current but whereas sometimes people get on it within a week, recession. I wish to focus most of my remarks on the at other times it can take up to 10 weeks. That is because future jobs fund and how we are implementing that in of the need for Criminal Records Bureau and occupational Barnsley, particularly to assist young people with limited health checks. qualifications; I am talking primarily about people who would be categorised as NEETs—those not in education, The scheme also provides a tracker system, which employment or training. keeps real-time information on the people being employed, The FJF was announced in the 2009 Budget, and it such as through real-time returns from employers. The forms part of a range of initiatives aimed at reducing Barnsley Development Agency can keep a record of benefit claimants in the 18-to-24 age range, under the each individual from the application stage onwards, young persons guarantee. The FJF is one of the largest and it knows where they are in the system—at interview national jobs programmes, and will create nationally stage or pre-employment stage, perhaps, or near the 150,000 new jobs over two years, of which 100,000 are employment start date. for 18 to 24-year-olds, under the young persons guarantee. Another feature of the scheme is that weekly updates Also, 50,000 jobs will be created in areas of high are given on the vacancy profile to all people on the unemployment. The recipients can be of working age, scheme from Jobcentre Plus, to try to get as many of but they must come from an area where unemployment them off the scheme and into jobs as quickly as possible. is 1.5 per cent. above the national average, based on the There is also a pre-employment training day, which is claimant count. These areas are known as hot spots, funded by TUC training—that is part of the training and the vast majority of wards in my constituency fall for people who fall into the NEETs category—as well as into that category. The programme is being managed by personal mentoring via individual opportunity advisers. the Department for Work and Pensions. Jobs must last An initial assessment is also provided leading to Skills for a minimum of six months, be additional and benefit for Life training. Another important feature is vocational the community, and the Department will pay £6,500 per training up to national vocational qualification level 2 job created. and training for health and safety qualifications. After I want to shine a light on the Barnsley scheme, three months on the scheme, CV-building and job search because I consider it to be the Rolls-Royce scheme. It is opportunities will be provided. currently being administered by the Barnsley Development The Barnsley scheme was the first such scheme to Agency. Barnsley has committed to creating quality, launch in the country, on 5 October in the new civic hall real jobs for up to 12 months, rather than for the in Barnsley, and more than 160 new employees were 731 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 732

[Jeff Ennis] private sector. One of the key criteria is that the businesses involved in the scheme must be of community benefit, welcomed to the world of work by the council leader, such as not-for-profit organisations or social enterprises. Councillor Steve Houghton, and their new employers. Unfortunately, the council has so far been unable to For many, this was the first day of work for some identify any private sector company, but it is engaging considerable time. I had the opportunity to address with many businesses that are members of the work and many of the new employees, and looking at the faces of skills board in Barnsley. There will be an announcement all those people who had never worked before, it was in the not-too-distant future about some private sector clear that their first day of work was an emotional companies employing people on the scheme. occasion. We have generations of people in the workless In my opinion, the scheme is a Rolls-Royce scheme category. Some are the third generation who have never and should be considered by local authorities hoping to had jobs. The start of their active employment in the have a positive effect on unemployment, particularly community was a great day. among young people in the NEETs category. I am sorry Between October and Christmas last year, 178 people to say that the future jobs scheme might be under threat gained employment through the future jobs fund, and a if we have a Tory Government after the election. further 100 will do so before Easter 2010. The existing As we are rather short of speakers in the debate, I will candidates all completed an initial assessment that ascertains go on a little longer. Moving away from the role that their current education level and indicates appropriate local authorities and central Government can play in training. Many started that training after enrolling in helping young people during the downturn, let us consider Barnsley college. I am glad to see the Minister for the vital role that the voluntary sector can play in Further Education in his place. I pay tribute to him for helping young people through the recession. I shall securing the £30-odd million funding to build the new highlight one such organisation, Citizens Advice, which Barnsley college. I am sure he will remember the sunny does outstanding work in all our constituencies. Nationally day that we had in October last year, when he performed there are 413 citizens advice bureaux. I have three in my the first sod-cutting of the new campus. That campus area—one in Doncaster, one in Barnsley and one in will be a fantastic asset to all future learners in Barnsley. Mexborough. I used to be on the management committee Many clients are already attending interviews for of the Barnsley CAB when I was a young councillor in jobs. I am glad to say that just before Christmas one of the 1980s, before all the pits closed under Thatcher. the people on the scheme, Miss Bernice Baines, was Every CAB is a registered charity and more than employed in a full-time capacity by a Department. 20,000 of the people involved in the service are trained There are currently 174 people on the programme, 56 of volunteers. The recession has meant that more young whom are young people, and 122 are from the so-called people are looking for opportunities to develop new hot spots to which I referred. The scheme has a target to skills as they find it increasingly difficult to enter education, achieve an equal split between young people and hot employment and training. Volunteering for a local CAB spots. There were another 20 new starters before Christmas. gives young people the chance to try out new opportunities The Barnsley scheme is acknowledged regionally and and develop skills that will help with college and university nationally as a model of good practice. We understand courses and in gaining employment. that our wrap-around support is unique. We strongly As part of the volunteer programme, young people believe that that has contributed to our retention rates. receive training relevant to the role, and in some cases Indeed, the Improvement and Development Agency, that will lead to a recognised certificate from the CAB. which is part of the Local Government Association, They also receive support from a dedicated supervisor has been to ask to write up the Barnsley as well as from other volunteers and young people in programme as a case study. the bureau. More importantly, they have the chance to make friends. All the volunteers are part of a team and I have witnessed at first-hand the added value that get the opportunity, through social and celebration some of those workers are providing. During the past events, to get to know other young people better. They few weeks when we have had snow on the ground in also feel valued because Citizens Advice listens to young Barnsley, many of those employed by the council in volunteers and has established a youth forum to ensure neighbourhood service have been playing a valiant role that young people are at the heart of the projects that it in clearing the pavements and roads, particularly on the develops. The good news is that nearly one third of the old people’s estates, where all our bungalows are, and volunteers who leave the CAB service each year use keeping old people on the move so that they can get to their experience to secure paid employment. local shops. That has been an added bonus from the Citizens Advice has recognised that in the recession it scheme. is becoming increasingly difficult for graduates to find As for the next steps, it is obviously important for the employment. Students must gain vital experience to scheme to maintain its integrity, from both a client and make them stand out if they are to succeed in the jobs a partnership point of view. The council is looking to market. That is why the CAB has developed a student increase partner members in both the private and the volunteering programme, which supports students to public sector and hopes to extend the scheme to a gain vital experience during the recession. It provides greater range of jobs and opportunities. The council is unique, office-based volunteering opportunities that allow also trying to attract finance and funding from other students to gain tangible work experience. Many students funding agencies to support the programme. find that volunteering with the CAB gives them a real With every scheme, though, there are a number of insight and a connection with their adopted community. risks. For example, it is often difficult to find other Students will receive training and accreditation for the organisations that can provide match funding so that work that they do, which potential employers see as the scheme can be extended. Another aspect that causes very beneficial. Hundreds of students volunteer with concern in Barnsley is the restriction on engaging the Citizens Advice every year all over the country. 733 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 734

Citizens Advice offers specialised volunteering I also say to the Minister—I need not give him a opportunities for students of certain subjects. For example, completely free ride—that in my experience the Government law students can knock up to six months off their have plumbed new depths of dysfunction. That applies training contract by volunteering as an adviser. Social across the field—whether, at one level, with what went policy and politics students can see first-hand the kind wrong with the further education capital programme or, of issues affecting people on the street, and can work to at another, with the concerns expressed yesterday in The make a difference. Emerging linguists can practise what Guardian, in terms that I never experienced as a Minister, they have learned as an interpreter, especially in multicultural by the Russell group, which said that it might take six communities, though not so much in my constituency, I months to bring the university sector to its knees—a admit. Public relations or marketing students can volunteer view that was echoed by the University and College as an event organiser or fundraiser. Citizens Advice has Union. In fact, I felt that that was a little over the top, been at the heart of every local community for 70 years, but there are definitely problems. and I am sure it will continue actively to support young I have been, and remain, concerned about people at people in need throughout the recession and beyond. the other end of the spectrum, specifically NEETs—those Rob Marris: I applaud the efforts of the CAB and not in education, employment or training—and those other organisations that are driven by volunteers, but who have learning difficulties or are without the necessary does my hon. Friend share my concern at the rise in basic skills. In the first place, the House needs to understand internships, which tend to be monopolised by the middle the impact of recessionary pressures, which create what class? There is a question over their legality because I would call a concertina effect. Graduates who are interns are not paid a minimum wage, and there is a key having difficulty in getting jobs may trade down to do difference between an intern and a volunteer. A volunteer less demanding jobs, below level 4, and in the process—it is someone who approaches an organisation and says, will not be their intention—tend to squeeze out of “I’d like to help you,” whereas an intern often answers employment altogether those who are less well qualified. an advertisement for an unpaid job. We should not They will be under-fulfilling their potential while cutting encourage that. off the potential for others. Jeff Ennis: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point We cannot deal with the problem of NEETs without that I hope my hon. Friend the Minister will address reaching back into the school system and improving when he sums up. opportunities outside the conventional routes of the This is a very important debate, from a central academic world from year 7 onwards. I am pleased to Government point of view, as regards what we can do see the Minister for Further Education acknowledging to help young people through the recession, from a that. That must be accompanied by proper independent local authority point of view, and from a voluntary guidance and mentoring, as people need help. We still sector point of view. need to devise—we have been saying this for 50 or 100 years—an examination and qualifications structure Several hon. Members rose— that complements the traditional royal road through A-levels and on to university with an alternative credible Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Before I call the next route involving proper concentration on subjects with speaker, I remind hon. Members that, as often happens an emphasis on at least part-vocational diplomas locked in these circumstances, we started off with plenty of in with apprenticeships, without closing off the routes time but now the clock is moving swiftly on. Perhaps to progression. At all stages, certainly after year 11, we those Members who are seeking to catch my eye would need greater hands-on involvement by potential bear that in mind when they are making their contributions. employers—that also applies as people move on to 3pm continued education—and they may have to help to finance the process. There must be a common understanding Mr. Tim Boswell (Daventry) (Con): It is a pleasure to of the best financial frameworks that we can afford to follow the hon. Member for Barnsley, East and support learning, matched by a coherent set of Mexborough (Jeff Ennis), who is always generous and qualifications. very practical. This is an important debate. I should say to the I have spoken elsewhere about this, and I think it is House that one of the reasons why I shall be brisk is no secret that I am something of a radical in this regard. that I need to nip out briefly before the conclusion of I want a national qualifications framework, on which the debate, but of course I want to hear the Minister the Government are at last making some progress, I wind up. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member want a credit system, and I want the support system for Havant (Mr. Willetts) for introducing the motion eventually to move into that area, although we will have and for the forensic case that he deployed in his criticism to wait for the Brown report before we come to a final of Government policy. view on that. Above all, we must not switch off thinking The House will know that I was formerly a further about doing this in the recession—we need to use it as a and higher education Minister, so I cover the whole springboard to development. The key themes of the remit of this debate, as it were. At my stage of a system should be coherence, something for everyone, parliamentary career, it is not appropriate to be and flexibility in that no administrative, financial or unnecessarily partisan, except perhaps at the beginning. qualification hurdle should frustrate those who, at whatever I will merely say, in view of the difficulties in which the level they find themselves, want to build a career or Minister found himself in relation to the current situation, simply—we should not forget this—enjoy the merits of as did the Liberal Democrat spokesperson, that I would education itself to lead a more fulfilling life. use a motto modified from a couple from the past: “If One of the more interesting and challenging hours you’re in an ’ole, start aspirating.” That is how one tries that I have spent recently was with a group of NEETs in to get out of it. my constituency. Frankly, when we started I was a bit 735 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 736

[Mr. Tim Boswell] re-engagement with the labour market. Without unreasonable measures, or sanctions that we have not apprehensive as to how we were going to get through contemplated, the difference between staying a NEET the hour, but it turned into a quite rewarding dialogue. and taking a dead-end job is unlikely by itself to change Of course, I remained aware of the problems before us, motivational behaviour. It is only when we can throw in but there was a belief developing that they were not the prospect of job enrichment through training, leading insuperable, provided that as a society we are prepared to greater responsibility and probable eventual promotion, to put in the time—the golden element that we often that employment really becomes worth while. I remember forget—to provide sympathetic support and mentoring the powerful American phrase, which I have often heard and to treat people, whatever their level, as individuals from my hon. Friend the Member for Havant, “Start with their own strengths, weaknesses, needs, opportunities with a job, move to a good job, get on to a career.” That and potential. is how we should be thinking. I want to close my brief remarks by addressing two There has been some talk about consensual politics. issues of principle that I have long embraced, which we The House will know that I am essentially a one-nation will continue to need to have validated long after we Tory and have been for many years, but we will not have put the recession behind us. The first is the gross make progress towards one nation, however we define misconception that learning activity is either academic it, if we continue to treat any one group as persistently or “vocational”, as if the professional classes have no “other”, or as some phenomenon or problem rooted in practical skills and the sons of toil have no need of the cares of the moment, great though they currently anything but the essential, elementary manual skills. are. We must consider people’s personalities, minds and Under the pressures of the recession, matters are made motivations. A learning society, which we would all like, much worse by the understandable demands of employers, assumes progression from the years of compulsory who say, “I’m short: send me six brickies,” or six typists— school—that is the easy bit—towards a society in which whatever it may be—as though people with vocational people, as individuals, are supported into work and skills were not better employees if they had an educational through their careers as much as they need to be. Those hinterland. careers develop a society, and the economy develops and changes. Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): Several hon. Members There is always a struggle to resource that, and not have spoken about the importance of skills for just in a recession, but equally there is a great prize to be manufacturing. Is it not a fact that we are leading the gained. People should not have just a narrow range of world in many aspects of manufacturing because we are evanescent skills to do the job that they have today. We able to combine the academic and the practical in terms need to build a wider and good society in which nobody of our skills mix in that sector? need feel ill-equipped, marginalised or unable fully to participate. Fortunately, this is one of those happy Mr. Boswell: I am grateful for that intervention. I am situations in which the prudential case, the educational lucky enough to have a large chunk of the Formula 1 case and, let us face it, the moral case coincide. industry, and Silverstone itself, in my constituency. These are brilliant people: they have not come up through 3.12 pm grand academic routes, but they have fantastic application. They are highly skilled—some of the best in the world—and David T.C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con): The Government amazingly articulate, confident and successful people in have today once again set out the narrative that they a team. That is exactly what we are looking for. have built up during the recession of the past year or so. We do not just need the one-off, simple, basic skill The narrative that they like to put forward is something sets—we need hinterland as well. That may come through like this: “The recession was nothing to do with us. It formal qualifications or through experience, but it needs was all caused by other people. Thanks to our wonderful to happen. I have seen, as many of us will have done, Prime Minister it has now been sorted out in this young people come alive through well directed vocational country, and we will shortly be returning to growth.” learning programmes, particularly when they are That is the message that they want young people to accompanied by good mentoring that, ideally, pulls hear. these people through the process and motivates them, However, young people are not fooled, and they with some assurance from employers that they will take know that the reality is very different. It was summed them on when they have achieved qualification. The up by the headline in the business section of The modern work force of the future will need people with Sunday Times this week, which on the face of it was those core skills, the ability to work together, and the quite positive. It was something along the lines of, “City confidence to do their own thing and adapt to changing confident that Britain will keep its triple A rating”. conditions. We are not creating automata or a mass However, on reading a little of the article it became work force, but people who can think and act for clear that the City was confident about that only because themselves. it is certain that after the general election, whoever wins That brings me to my final substantive point, which will have to take urgent steps to reduce public spending. is about the need for progression. Of course, we all The Government may try to maintain that the recession represent the aspirational classes. We take it as a matter has now passed over and that we are coming out of it, of course that we want our children and grandchildren but it is very possible that the recession proper has not to progress and succeed, but why should any of us think even begun yet. It was caused by policies that were of the NEETs as having a different agenda of their partly the fault of the Government, such as not regulating own? The problem is that in the present circumstances, the banks properly, and made worse by the fact that it is difficult to make a plausible static case for their they failed, even during when the economy 737 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 738 was growing, to spend what they were taking in taxation. Kevin Brennan: The hon. Gentleman is in danger of It will be made considerably worse by the fact that with disappearing into the vortex of his own illogical one last throw of the dice, one last gamble, they decided representations. A minute ago he was complaining about to borrow billions upon billions of pounds—something the fact that not enough people were passing exams, like £180 billion—to try to keep the party going before and now he is saying that too many pass exams. Which the general election. That is what will concern young is it? people in the years ahead, and it is right that it should. Whoever wins the next general election, the news will be David T.C. Davies: That is a very good question, but very bad. the reality is that at the moment people who are unlikely Of course, the reality been disguised from many to pass are simply not put in for the exams. That is why people, partly because of the failings of the education one in four people do not get a grade C or above. system, which should have delivered the high-tech work Generally, all those who are put in for the exams come force that we need to thrive in a globalised economy. We out with some sort of qualification. That is the clever have heard great rhetoric today about what the Government use of statistics and targets that the Government are so have done for young people and graduates, but the very good at. The Minister cannot deny that one in four reality is that one in four people still leave their primary people are not getting a grade C or above, or that there school unable to read and write properly. One in four has been a huge increase in the number of people are not getting any GCSEs at grade C or above, and one gaining As and Bs. It is he who needs to be making in six 16 to 24-year-olds are not in education, employment explanations. or training. It was a Labour Government who promised I happen to believe that the Government have failed us a welfare state that would look after people from the to impose proper standards in schools. That view has cradle to the grave, but in education they have delivered been reflected by employers, who have complained that a failure from the nursery to the bursary. [Interruption.] even graduates who have come to them do not understand I am happy to give way to Ministers if they wish to basic English or maths. Some companies have actually intervene. had to teach people how to write letters. A member of the public walking into the House of Commons is greeted with a sign that says, “Visitors Entrance”. Where Kevin Brennan: Would the hon. Gentleman care to is the apostrophe? It is not there. Who wrote these give us the figures for 1997, so that we can compare things? Perhaps it is because I am rapidly approaching them with the figures that he is complaining about so 40 that that sort of thing irritates me. We cannot even powerfully? get our grammar right in the mother of all Parliaments, so how do we expect people leaving schools to do so? David T.C. Davies: I shall come on to what I think the What sort of example are we setting? Minister alludes to. I do not have the figures to hand, We need to go back to the basics in schools and get but what he alludes to is important. He will attempt to rid of all this politically correct stuff, with people sitting suggest through statistics that more people are now around their desks chatting to each other. What is getting higher levels of exam qualification, which is wrong with people learning by rote, in rows, one behind certainly true on paper. The fact of the matter is that the other? What happened to the three R’s in schools— virtually everyone who takes exams these days seems to reading, writing and arithmetic? They have been replaced pass them, which certainly did not happen in 1997. by the three C’s—cultural studies, climate change and, Two possible reasons have been suggested for that. for five-year-olds in primary school now, carnal knowledge. One is that the exams have become easier and the other That is absolutely disgraceful. is that pupils these days are much cleverer than pupils We need to get rid of the sham degrees that allow used to be 10 years ago. I have my views about that, but people to spend three or four years doing such things as let us be generous to the Ministers, who are hopping up surfing studies or game theory. I once thought that that and down now. Let us assume that the reason why more might refer to the respected branch of economics, but it people are getting higher grades in their GCSEs and is literally about understanding the differences between A-levels is nothing to do with the fact that the Government Playstations and Xboxes, as far as I can see. That course have downgraded exams, even though there is plenty of is actually being offered in one higher education institute evidence to suggest that that is exactly what has happened. in London, which is absolutely disgraceful. We are not I still say to them that it is wrong that virtually everyone going to pull ourselves out of recession and help young who takes the exams passes them, whether at GCSE or people by setting an artificial target of sending 50 per A-level. It is impossible for the universities, and beyond cent. of them to university if they are going to come out that employers, to distinguish those who are good from with those Mickey Mouse degree qualifications that those who are very good. will mean nothing to employers. The point of an exam should not be to make people What about ensuring that people can be respected for feel good about themselves. It should be partly so that gaining vocational skills? I have letters after my name: I people understand their strengths and weaknesses, so am David Davies HGV class 1, a graduate of the Heads that employers can understand who is likely to fit into a of the Valleys school of motoring, Gilwern 1992! That particular role and so that universities can pick and qualification enabled me to have four years of gainful choose the best people for the courses that they offer. and very well paid employment as a contract driver at The Minister should ensure, if he gets the opportunity Lucas Girling. That is nothing to be ashamed of; I am over the next few months—I do not think he will very glad I did it because I do not think I would have after that—that exams are properly set so that we can benefited at that age from a university education. I understand who is good, who is very good and who is believe we should give all the support we can to those no good at all. who would benefit from such an education, but we 739 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 740

[David T.C. Davies] Mr. Binley: I normally would, but I do not have very much time. cannot put 50 per cent. of the population into university We need a knowledge-based economy, to ensure that and think there will be no cost to the people concerned those hi-tech, highly skilled jobs that we could produce who will rack up bills, or to taxpayers who pay £10,000 in manufacturing are produced, and that the opportunity a year to fund those courses. is exploited. We have a real opportunity. Manufacturing If we are going to get Britain out of the recession, we jobs are coming back, because the level of skill and need to start matching the skills that are needed by technical knowledge is increasing greatly in certain areas employers to the skills that are offered by universities of the sector. We need to be able to exploit that, which and training courses. I do not need to be a rocket means training people, which in turn means colleges of scientist to understand that hundreds of thousands of further education. However, to my mind , Governments people are coming into this country from eastern Europe of both hues have neglected and failed to enhance FE and beyond. My wife is from eastern Europe, so I am in colleges properly in the past 20 years. The building no way prejudiced about that, but it irritates me that all programme that is under way is immensely welcome, the jobs for plumbers, carpenters, electricians and other and I recognise that in that respect, there is some hope skilled tradesmen are being taken by people who have for the future. However, this is about not only the come here from other countries because nobody in this buildings but what happens inside them, which is so country is qualified to do them. At the same time we important. have graduates in things such as surf study management I spoke to a very fine principal of Northampton who cannot get a job. Surely I am not alone in thinking college of further education—which, I am delighted to that that is the policy of madness—many young people say, is a recipient of the Government programme to and employers can see that too. They are going to be enhance our FE infrastructure. His name is Len Closs. coming out at the next general election to vote and He is a highly skilled and experienced teacher, and leads campaign to ensure that the next generation of young and runs a very effective and important college in people are educated under Conservative policies, so that Northampton. I asked him what he thought we needed we have a work force who are able to compete in a to take on board if we were to move forward, and he globalised economy, and who have the ability to drag us said: out of the recession that this Government did so much “Firstly, to recognise that learners are individuals with their own to get us in. talents and abilities…This implies further development of training curricula to avoid ‘one size fits all’ and to address differentiation 3.22 pm in learners’ needs and employers requirements…Secondly, Skills Mr. Brian Binley (Northampton, South) (Con): I Trainers must have a passion for the subject and the skill to want to stay with the very narrow point of the relationship inspire others to want to achieve. This implies the need to ensure that high quality practitioners continue to be encouraged to come between skills training and the workplace. This issue into training and that employers continue to give access to concerns me greatly and I have spoken about it in the opportunities in the workplace alongside enthusiastic practitioners.” House on a number of occasions. I make no apology for In other words, he is telling us that the human relationship the fact that I come from a business background. I have between pupil and teacher lies at the heart of good been a business manager for 40 years, and I can tell the skills training, which indeed it does; it lies at the heart of House that business increasingly relies upon employees education generally, but I am focusing particularly on with high literacy and numeracy skills. Therein lies a skills training. We need to learn lessons from what serious problem. Fifty per cent. of employers or thereabouts heads of further education colleges tell us, and I hope are dissatisfied with the quality of the training and that Ministers have heard those comments. education of the school leavers whom they meet. In conclusion, colleges are vital to inform us about Literacy and numeracy training begins at primary how to solve the problem of skills training, and we need school. It is worrying and frightening to learn that each to listen to their recommendations; that is the first piece year, about 120,000 children leave primary school unable of advice that I would give the Government. Secondly, to read and write properly. The Government are aware we need to develop good literacy and numeracy skills at of the problem and are working on it, but it is already the base of our educational structure, for without those seriously inconveniencing the futures of many of our we will not succeed. young children. We must crack that problem. Otherwise, talk of further skills training is almost meaningless: if Thirdly, vocational and skills training should be kids cannot add up or read properly, the difficulties of workplace-driven, and local businesses should motivate, training them later are considerably enhanced. That is direct and be involved with local vocational problems. my first point. All too often, vocational training is created by I will not say much about NEETs—people not in educationists—although that does not happen in employment, education or training, about whom much Northampton, I am delighted to say. We need business has already been said—but I will make the point that to be involved in the process if we are to be successful. Britain’s future is to an immense extent tied up with All too often, ill-designed packages are being created having people who are skilful enough to work in the and delivered away from the workplace, and they are hi-tech, highly skilled businesses that will create for distant from the ethos and culture of the working Britain what I hope will be a more interesting and environment. wealthier future when the upturn comes. I must tell the I could go on, but time forbids; it is right and proper Government, as businesses will tell them, that the upturn that I should give the Front-Bench spokesmen the time has not yet happened. Frankly, we do ourselves no in which to sum up. But I want to encourage the favours by saying that the recession has ended. Government to understand the importance of outreach, of bringing in businesses to help create the training Lorely Burt Will the hon. Gentleman give way? programmes, and of training in the workplace. 741 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 742

Most of all, we should ensure that we have skills Mr. Hayes: That is a different subject for a different trainers who are inspired to train and can make that day. I do agree with the hon. Gentleman about the need vital connection, on a one-to-one basis, with those to boost apprenticeships; I know that he and the hon. whom we are letting down at the moment—the NEETs. Member for Barnsley, East and Mexborough are advocates They are best handled by inspirational people in colleges of the apprenticeship system. They will know that in of further education, to ensure that we put right the 2007 a report on apprenticeships by the mistakes that we have made earlier, in primary education. Select Committee on Economic Affairs concluded that It is a very tough job, but if we do not face up to it and many who would benefit from an apprenticeship were make the advances that we need to make, we will not be not doing so, mainly because of the severe shortage of in a position to exploit the high-tech opportunities that places. Again, it is time that Ministers came clean. I believe Britain can exploit when the upturn comes. We might have expected an admission of falling That means increasing our manufacturing base, which apprenticeship numbers. In the fourth quarter of last is so important to us. year, we saw a fall in the number of apprenticeship 3.31 pm starts. We did not hear about that when the Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual Property spoke. The Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) figures are worse than has been suggested. The fact is (Con): W. B. Yeats said: that all of the increase in the number of apprenticeships “Education is the lighting of a fire”. over the past decade has been a result of converting In Britain today, however, there are people whose fire other forms of training into apprenticeships. That is has been extinguished: the young people who are out of precisely what the Lords Economic Affairs Committee’s education, untrained, left behind and with little prospect report said in 2007. of a fulfilling job. I am talking about an army—one Ministers like to count the number of apprentices in might say a “forgotten army”—of 1 million young terms of apprenticeship starts, so when the Minister for people not in education, employment or training. They Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships and Consumer are a generation of broken lives and shattered dreams—but Affairs sums up, will he confirm that at the beginning of the tragedy is not only personal to them. the decade there were 84,500 advanced apprenticeship As my hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts), starts at level 3, and that by the end of the decade that who began the debate, pointed out, the situation is a number had fallen to less than 80,000? The number of tragedy for our nation as a whole, and a growing burden level 3 apprenticeship starts—that is the level at which on the state. The Prince’s Trust estimates that the cost of all apprenticeships were once defined, and below which the growing forgotten army is about £3 billion a year. a position would not be regarded as an apprenticeship We know that if a young person’s first experience of the in other countries— labour market is of unemployment and failure, that can leave deep scars of disadvantage. As the hon. Member for Barnsley, East and Mexborough (Jeff Ennis) pointed Kevin Brennan rose— out, prospects can be damaged for a whole lifetime. The problem is not caused simply by the recession. Mr. Hayes: The Minister can confirm that when he Youth unemployment rose in the last decade, even when sums up, I hope, rather than interrupting my rather unemployment overall was falling. As the hon. Member attractive rhetorical flow at this moment. for Bristol, West (Stephen Williams) said, the number The Government failed because they failed to engage of NEETs has remained stubbornly and unacceptably employers. It is time to change. A Conservative Government high throughout the lifetime of this Government. Instead will make it much easier for companies to run of more young people being helped to enter skilled apprenticeships. The Minister for Higher Education employment, most new jobs have gone to people born and Intellectual Property invited us to give a description overseas. It is not ethically sustainable that, at a time of our policies. We never resist that kind of invitation, when more and more British young people, of all kinds so let me remind him what those policies are. We will and from all origins, are finding themselves unable to tighten the apprenticeship frameworks so that they are get a job and access training, we should be importing so relevant to each sector of the economy, we will cut the much foreign labour. The OECD says that seven in 10 bureaucracy that surrounds apprenticeships, we will jobs created since 1997 have been filled by foreign pay employers directly for the training they provide, we workers. will boost the apprenticeship programme by almost That might have led one to suspect that the Minister £800 million in support from Train to Gain to help would speak at the beginning of the debate with a those most in need and, because we know that small degree of contrition, and that he would be in the mood and medium-sized enterprises need extra support, we to apologise or concede. But no—we heard a mixture of will pay an apprenticeship bonus of £2,000 for each windy rhetoric and partisan bombast. I have to say that apprenticeship at an SME. I am disappointed in the Minister—and it all comes after years of spin and debt. We simply cannot go on As the Minister should know, and as my hon. Friend like that, and he knows it. We must lay the foundations the Member for Havant pointed out at the beginning of for a stronger, broader-based economy by providing the debate, we will also introduce an all-age careers real opportunities to young people. service so that people get the right advice about the right opportunities to be trained and educated. We will Rob Marris: Given that such a high proportion of also put in place special additional support for NEETs, foreign workers come from other member states of the through a NEETs fund. Those are tangible, costed real European Union, does the hon. Gentleman agree that it policies. I do not know whether the Minister had not is time that we revisited the question of the free movement heard about them before today, but I know that he will of labour within the EU? go home a happier man for having done so. 743 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 744

[Mr. Hayes] for applications because they were not clearly stated or well publicised, and not well understood by applicants. The House of Lords inquiry on apprenticeships Perhaps he could repeat what his ministerial colleagues concluded that one of the biggest barriers to young have said: that the Government are offering a guarantee people’s participating in apprenticeship training was the that there will be no January admissions crisis. It would lack of basic skills, as pointed out by my hon. Friend be wrong were the House to learn later that the lessons the Member for Northampton, South (Mr. Binley). had not been learned, and that students applying for Ofsted told the inquiry that a conservative estimate admission to colleges and universities in January and would be that 300,000 16 to 19-year-olds were unable to February had faced the same difficulties as their access apprenticeships because of a lack of basic skills. predecessors. As my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) Will the Minister give an absolute assurance that said, we need to build a pathway that helps more young there will be no crisis this year? He has had long enough people into apprenticeships and skilled employment. to give such an assurance, and the House wants to hear We need a programme of pre-apprenticeship training, it. He knows what my hon. Friend the Member for with key skills such as numeracy and literacy embedded Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) reminded him: the in learning a trade. That will demonstrate to young Government have failed. They have failed to reduce the people the importance of such skills to their working number of those not in education, employment or life. training, to expand real apprenticeships and to help For the hard core of NEETs, who will at first need to more disadvantaged people into university. take small steps back into learning and employment, we will establish extra FE college places every year. There I want to deal with two points that the Minister will be 50,000 new places each year in colleges that are raised. He will be familiar with the Higher Education liberated—freed from the stifling bureaucracy that was Statistics Agency’s performance indicators that were identified by Andrew Foster in a report for the Government referenced in the 2006 Dearing report. However, the years ago, yet the Government have done so little about indicators remain stubbornly similar to those in the it. From new college courses through pre-apprenticeship report, which revealed that working-class participation training and real work-based apprenticeships to higher in universities had increased by just 1 per cent. since apprenticeships and foundation degrees, I want to build 1995. Participation programmes such as Aimhigher, on a ladder of opportunity that will be respected by learners which the Government spent more than £2 billion a and valued by employers. year, have produced a 1 per cent. increase in participation by working-class students. The House would be disappointed if I did not say a brief word about the student loans crisis that was I am not saying that we do not need to advise and rightly identified by my hon. Friend the Member for guide, which is why we want an all-age careers service, Havant as a fundamental failure on the part of this and I am not saying that we do not need to address that Government. That is not merely the view of Members problem, which is why we want to look at modes of on the Opposition Benches or of critics of the Government learning, access points to learning and all the other on their own Benches. The report that the Government ways in which we can widen participation—widening commissioned concluded that the Department itself participation is top of my agenda. Let us not live in was in part to blame, because of the confusion that it cloud cuckoo land though, but consider and address the caused by moving the goalposts every time the Student facts, and see what we can do to change them. Loans Company tried to organise its affairs. I seek some clarity on one other matter, because the I want to elicit from the Minister for Further Education, House would expect it to be on the record: the success Skills, Apprenticeships and Consumer Affairs, when he or failure of Train to Gain. The Minister knows that the sums up, some answers to specific questions. It is immensely 2009 NAO report concluded that regrettable, as I am sure that he realises, that, as the “the programme has not provided good value for money”, review revealed, that the deadweight cost was about 50 per cent., and “new students…have experienced real and significant problems in applying for financial support”. that many employers said that they would have arranged the training anyway, although that would not necessarily I wrote to the Minister for Higher Education and have resulted in a qualification. Train to Gain is immensely Intellectual Property just before Christmas. I did not cost ineffective—and Ministers know it. want to spoil his turkey dinner, but I felt that these questions needed to be answered. I am disappointed to We have had a decade of failure—millions of shattered say that I have still not had a reply, and so I hope that dreams and broken lives. Labour Members know that the Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships but are embarrassed to admit to it. They are too timid and Consumer Affairs will answer these questions. to own up and too faint-hearted to challenge. Indeed, if Labour MPs had populated the Bounty, there would On 10 December last year, Ministers indicated to the not have been a mutiny and Captain Bligh would have House that the backlog in cases would be cleared by the got away with his punitive regime. Well, we will not let weekend of 12 December? Will the Minister confirm the Government continue to punish Britain’s youth and whether that was the case. If it is not, why not? Britain’s future any longer. It is time for those who have Will institutions that have used access to learning failed to step aside and let those with perseverance and funds to cover the gap between students applying for passion step forward, to let Britain grow and to bring and receiving loans receive support from either the new hope, jobs and opportunity. The Government are Higher Education Funding Council or the Department? out of ideas, they are out of good people, they are out Does the Minister accept the conclusion of an independent of tune, out of step and out of line—and very soon they review that many students missed the published deadlines will be out of office, too. 745 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 746

3.44 pm debated in the House he quoted Eliot. Perhaps I could quote for him another great lyricist—Madonna—and The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships say that we have “heard it all before”. and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): This has been a most enjoyable debate, not least during the last contribution. Members’ contributions have been of a high standard, Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): as is often the case in such debates. The Minister is dumbing down. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, Kevin Brennan: I am not dumbing down, and that is East and Mexborough (Jeff Ennis) on his speech. He an unfair accusation. I could quote poetry—my wife is has had to attend a Select Committee, which is why he is a poetry editor—but we have indeed heard it all before. not in his place now. However, he gave us an example of what is going on in Barnsley, which is an exemplar for Beyond that rhetoric—the hon. Member for South the rest of the country in terms of skills. Holland and The Deepings accused my right hon. Friend the Minister for Higher Education of windy rhetoric I would also like to congratulate the hon. Member for and partisan bombast; there were elements of kettle, Monmouth (David T.C. Davies). He knows that, personally, pot and black in that remark. The Opposition motion I like him immensely. He is a proper Tory, and we heard asks three fairly important questions. First, should we the authentic voice of the Conservative party in his be expanding apprenticeships, as we are doing? Secondly, contribution this afternoon. However, given his traducing should we be reducing bureaucracy for FE colleges, as of the training for the games industry, I should point we are also doing? Thirdly, should we be offering record out that it is now larger than the music industry in this numbers of university places? Again, that is exactly country. The hon. Gentleman rather reminded me of what we are doing right now, with 43 per cent. of young John Lennon’s Aunt Mimi, who advised him not to go people going on to university. Let us look at those into the music business because it was a complete waste questions in a little more detail in the time available. of time. Despite what the hon. Gentleman said—he did not I also congratulate the hon. Member for Northampton, allow me to intervene to make this point—the expansion South (Mr. Binley), who made a thoughtful and interesting of apprenticeships is a remarkable story. It is a success contribution. He rightly recognised the value of the story for the Government and for the country. It is not capital programme at the further education college in unfair to say that apprenticeships were withering on the his area, from which his constituency has benefited, and vine before this Government came into power. There the importance of jobs in the manufacturing industry. were 240,000 apprenticeship starts in 2008-09, which, That leads me to the hon. Member for Daventry despite what he said, is the largest number ever. He also (Mr. Boswell), who as ever made a highly thoughtful complained and asked whether I could confirm that the and intelligent contribution. He sits on the board of the number of higher-level apprenticeship starts in 2008-09 university in my constituency, and a welcome board was below 80,000. No, I cannot confirm that, because member he is, with the experience and wisdom that he the figure in 2008-09 was 81,400—it was more than brings. He spoke about the importance of the modern 80,000, not less, as he implied. work force and modern manufacturing—I think that the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) intervened Mr. Binley: The Minister talks about apprenticeship at that point. He mentioned the Formula 1 industry in starts. Will he tell us about the attrition level? How his constituency and the fact that this is still a great many of those people do not conclude their courses? manufacturing country—the sixth most important in the world—with a high level of skills. Kevin Brennan: I am very pleased that the hon. That triggered off in my mind a story told by my Gentleman asked me that, because the success rate for predecessor, who until quite recently was the First Minister apprenticeships last year rose by 6 per cent. to 70 per of Wales, about the plane involved in the miracle on the cent. That is more than double what it has been previously. River Hudson. Captain Sullenberger, in a display of That is a remarkable success story and a remarkable great heroism and skill, landed the plane on the Hudson. rate of growth. As I have said, the motion is inaccurate When the passengers got out and stood on the wings, in stating that there has been an overall fall in the which saved their lives, they were standing on wings that number of apprenticeship starts. The rate is remarkable had been manufactured here in the UK, in north Wales. for a time of recession, given that apprenticeships are That is an example of the great British modern essentially work-based training. We all have to acknowledge manufacturing that is out there around the world. We the challenges that economic downturn and recession forget that. Frankly, hon. Members in all parts of the bring for the younger age group, particularly 16 to House do not blow our trumpet loudly enough when it 18-year-olds, who are especially badly hit during a comes to the great manufacturing industry that we still recession. That is exactly why the Government have have in this country. It is right that this Government taken all the measures that we have in relation to young have a policy of industrial activism to develop that people. manufacturing industry further, through our “New Industry, I am glad that the Under-Secretary of State for New Jobs” policies. Children, Schools and Families, my hon. Friend the The speech made by the hon. Member for South Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Wright), who deals with Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) was immensely the under-19s, is present. We have done a lot to try to enjoyable, as his speeches almost always are. They are assist that age group, including through the September not always entirely illuminating, but they are always guarantee, which the Opposition have consistently refused hugely enjoyable and humorous. As ever, he included a to match. Neither the Conservative Front Benchers poetry quotation. On this occasion it was from Yeats; if who are present today nor those in the Department for I remember correctly, on the previous occasion when we Children, Schools and Families shadow team have 747 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 748

[Kevin Brennan] and in our “Skills for Growth” paper, we have clearly indicated the types of measures that we are taking to committed to the September guarantee. We brought in reduce bureaucracy. Good and outstanding colleges no the January guarantee to make sure that people can longer have to be inspected every two or three years, but enter employment training if they are unable to find every six years. Good and outstanding colleges may work or other forms of training, and that is exactly why now choose to switch their money—to “vire”, to use the we are also introducing a £2,500 incentive for employers technical term—right across their budgets and they are to support 5,000 new apprenticeship places for 16 and subject to much-reduced audit. Indeed, all colleges, not 17-year-olds now. As I have been able to say, thanks to just good or outstanding ones, can now switch their the intervention of the hon. Member for Northampton, expenditure within their budget headings on learner- South, we are now hitting record completion rates for responsive and employer-responsive budgets, and we apprenticeships that are well over double what they have reduced the number of agencies that they have to used to be. Despite what the Opposition say in their talk to. It is not true that the Government are not attempts to downplay apprenticeships and to make out making progress on reducing bureaucracy, on which we that they are something like those under the youth should be constantly vigilant. We are determined to training scheme, which was the Conservatives response carry on with that simplification agenda and to carry on to youth unemployment, they are quality apprenticeships reducing bureaucracy. with a high level of success, and the young people who The number of students is the third element of the undertake them make great achievements. Opposition motion. The Opposition called on us to Apprenticeships are just one of the four national clarify matters about the Student Loans Company, and learning pathways that we have introduced for 16 to I understand from my right hon. Friend the Secretary 18-year-olds. The Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and of State that the backlog has been cleared and that we Learning Act 2009 will ensure that apprenticeship places have accepted the terms of the review, which I was are available for all suitably qualified young people by asked about earlier. I cannot guarantee the hon. Member 2013. We anticipate that one in five young people will for Havant that there will not be a crisis this year, undertake apprenticeships in the next decade. They will however, as according to some bookmakers, there could be a key route to bringing us out of the economic be a Conservative Government this year. If that happened, downturn, and it is vital that we continue to invest in I could not guarantee that there would not be a young people in that way. As I have said, the take-up of further crisis. Nevertheless, the measures that we have apprenticeships continues to rise, and the number of taken and our acceptance of the Hopkin report’s completions has smashed all previous records. We have recommendations will go a long way towards improving hit our public service agreement target on apprenticeships the situation. two years ahead of target, so I shall not take any lessons I cannot leave the subject of extra student numbers on this issue. In our recent “Skills for Growth” White without once again referring to the proposal in the Paper, as part of the national skills strategy, we have Opposition motion to create 10,000 extra places for committed to having 35,000 new places for 19 to 30-year- students next year. The hon. Member for Havant said olds in higher-level apprenticeships in the next two that he could raise £300 million from getting 1 per cent. years. We have introduced group training models so of the money returned to the Government as part of his that smaller businesses can work together to provide programme. He said that he would get that money by apprenticeships, and that approach has the potential to offering a discount to those who repaid early. Well, develop another 15,000 places in the next few years. We earlier in 2008-09, £300 million was already paid back have also committed £5 million for the development of early. If his proposal were adopted, he would have to new frameworks at levels 3 and 4, so the Opposition’s pay, with his 10 per cent. discount, £30 million to people charge about higher-level apprenticeships is completely who were going to pay the Government back anyway. unfounded. That £30 million dead-weight cost would be needed in The hon. Member for Havant talked about progression, order to work the little three-card trick that he has which is an important issue. He talked about the report developed to avoid facing the fact that funding extra of the right hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) places means providing the money. and the importance of trying to inspire apprentices to I advise the hon. Member for Havant to go and see build their skills up to the higher education level. We his hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr. Osborne). have committed—again in the skills strategy—to introduce When he goes into his hon. Friend’s room, he should an apprenticeship scholarship fund from the autumn, tell him to sit down and take the weight off his feet for a and we are currently working through the details of that moment, and explain that what he really needs to do if undertaking. he wants to create extra student places is decide to spend the money necessary to provide them. If he wants Mr. Hayes: Will the Minister give way? to do that, he is going to have to borrow the money. Alternatively, the hon. Gentleman could tell the shadow Kevin Brennan: By asking me to give way, the hon. Chancellor that he wants to spend £30 million for Gentleman must be implying that my rhetoric is not as nothing—on students who are already paying the money good as his rhetoric, because he gave the quality of his back. rhetoric as a reason not to give way to me. [Interruption.] Rob Marris: I am sorry to interrupt my hon. Friend’s I am, indeed, nicer, but I am going to carry on for a flow of rhetoric, which is considerable, but does he moment. agree that the Conservative motion is not entirely clear The second charge in the Opposition’s motion was about the 10,000 places, because the implication is that about bureaucracy. We are doing a great deal to reduce those 10,000 places would be there for ever more, whereas bureaucracy in FE colleges. In our investment strategy it is in fact a one-off for only one cohort? 749 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 750

Kevin Brennan: As my hon. Friend rightly points Grieve, Mr. Dominic Murrison, Dr. Andrew out—he got the Opposition to elucidate earlier—this is Gummer, rh Mr. John Neill, Robert a one-off three-card trick. I do not think the policy Hague, rh Mr. William Newmark, Mr. Brooks could possibly be sustained over a period of time, Hammond, Mr. Philip O’Brien, Mr. Stephen because it is a false way of trying to fund the extra Hammond, Stephen Öpik, Lembit places. If the hon. Member for Havant wants to fund Hancock, Mr. Mike Osborne, Mr. George Hands, Mr. Greg Ottaway, Richard these places—it is a legitimate aspiration to fund more Harper, Mr. Mark Paice, Mr. James places in higher education; we have done it year after Hayes, Mr. John Paterson, Mr. Owen year so that we now have record numbers of places—he Heald, Mr. Oliver Pelling, Mr. Andrew has to be up front with the , he has to be Heath, Mr. David Penrose, John straight with the House and he has to say that he is Heathcoat-Amory, rh Pickles, Mr. Eric prepared to spend the money, by borrowing if necessary, Mr. David Prisk, Mr. Mark to do so. Otherwise, he will simply not be believed, and Hemming, John Pritchard, Mark he will waste £30 million on a dead-weight cost, which Hendry, Charles Pugh, Dr. John is an absolute waste of public money. Herbert, Nick Randall, Mr. John Hermon, Lady Redwood, rh Mr. John Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the Hoban, Mr. Mark Reid, Mr. Alan original words stand part of the Question. Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Hollobone, Mr. Philip Robathan, Mr. Andrew The House proceeded to a Division. Holloway, Mr. Adam Robertson, Mr. Laurence Holmes, Paul Rogerson, Dan Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I ask the Horam, Mr. John Rowen, Paul Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the No Horwood, Martin Russell, Bob Lobby. Howard, rh Mr. Michael Sanders, Mr. Adrian Howarth, David Scott, Mr. Lee The House having divided: Ayes 228, Noes 311. Howarth, Mr. Gerald Selous, Andrew Division No. 37] [3.59 pm Howell, John Shapps, Grant Hughes, Simon Shepherd, Mr. Richard Huhne, Chris Simmonds, Mark AYES Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Simpson, David Afriyie, Adam Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Hunter, Mark Simpson, Mr. Keith Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Hurd, Mr. Nick Smith, Chloe Amess, Mr. David Curry, rh Mr. David Jack, rh Mr. Michael Smith, Sir Robert Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Davies, David T.C. Jackson, Mr. Stewart Soames, Mr. Nicholas Atkinson, Mr. Peter (Monmouth) Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Bacon, Mr. Richard Davies, Philip Jones, Mr. David Spicer, Sir Michael Baker, Norman Davis, rh David Kawczynski, Daniel Spring, Mr. Richard Baldry, Tony Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Keetch, Mr. Paul Stanley, rh Sir John Barker, Gregory Dodds, Mr. Nigel Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Steen, Mr. Anthony Baron, Mr. John Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Key, Robert Streeter, Mr. Gary Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Kirkbride, Miss Julie Stunell, Andrew Bellingham, Mr. Henry Dorries, Nadine Knight, rh Mr. Greg Swayne, Mr. Desmond Benyon, Mr. Richard Duddridge, James Lamb, Norman Swinson, Jo Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan, Alan Lancaster, Mr. Mark Swire, Mr. Hugo Binley, Mr. Brian Dunne, Mr. Philip Laws, Mr. David Syms, Mr. Robert Blunt, Mr. Crispin Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Leech, Mr. John Tapsell, Sir Peter Bone, Mr. Peter Evans, Mr. Nigel Leigh, Mr. Edward Taylor, Matthew Boswell, Mr. Tim Evennett, Mr. David Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Teather, Sarah Bottomley, Peter Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Dr. Julian Thurso, John Brady, Mr. Graham Fallon, Mr. Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Tredinnick, David Brake, Tom Field, Mr. Mark Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Turner, Mr. Andrew Brazier, Mr. Julian Foster, Mr. Don Loughton, Tim Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Breed, Mr. Colin Fox, Dr. Liam Luff, Peter Vaizey, Mr. Edward Brokenshire, James Francois, Mr. Mark Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Vara, Mr. Shailesh Brooke, Annette Fraser, Christopher Maclean, rh David Viggers, Sir Peter Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gale, Mr. Roger Main, Anne Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Browning, Angela Garnier, Mr. Edward Malins, Mr. Humfrey Wallace, Mr. Ben Burns, Mr. Simon Gauke, Mr. David Maples, Mr. John Walter, Mr. Robert Burrowes, Mr. David George, Andrew Mates, rh Mr. Michael Waterson, Mr. Nigel Burstow, Mr. Paul Gibb, Mr. Nick May, rh Mrs. Theresa Watkinson, Angela Burt, Alistair Gidley, Sandra McCrea, Dr. William Whittingdale, Mr. John Burt, Lorely Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl McIntosh, Miss Anne Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Butterfill, Sir John Goldsworthy, Julia McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Willetts, Mr. David Cable, Dr. Vincent Goodman, Mr. Paul Mercer, Patrick Williams, Mark Cameron, rh Mr. David Goodwill, Mr. Robert Miller, Mrs. Maria Williams, Mr. Roger Campbell, Mr. Gregory Gove, Michael Milton, Anne Williams, Stephen Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Gray, Mr. James Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Willis, Mr. Phil Cash, Mr. William Grayling, Chris Moore, Mr. Michael Wilshire, Mr. David Chope, Mr. Christopher Green, Damian Moss, Mr. Malcolm Wilson, Mr. Rob Clark, Greg Greening, Justine Mulholland, Greg Wilson, Sammy Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Greenway, Mr. John Mundell, David Winterton, Ann 751 Education, Training and Skills13 JANUARY 2010 Education, Training and Skills 752

Winterton, Sir Nicholas Tellers for the Ayes: Hill, rh Keith Michael, rh Alun Wright, Jeremy Mr. Stephen Crabb and Hodge, rh Margaret Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Young, rh Sir George Bill Wiggin Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Miliband, rh David Younger-Ross, Richard Hood, Mr. Jim Miliband, rh Edward Hope, Phil Miller, Andrew NOES Hopkins, Kelvin Mitchell, Mr. Austin Hosie, Stewart Moffat, Anne Abbott, Ms Diane Crausby, Mr. David Howarth, rh Mr. George Moffatt, Laura Ainger, Nick Cruddas, Jon Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mole, Chris Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Cummings, John Humble, Mrs. Joan Morden, Jessica Allen, Mr. Graham Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hutton, rh Mr. John Morgan, Julie Anderson, Mr. David Cunningham, Tony Iddon, Dr. Brian Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Armstrong, rh Hilary Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire Illsley, Mr. Eric Mudie, Mr. George Atkins, Charlotte David, Mr. Wayne Irranca-Davies, Huw Mullin, Mr. Chris Austin, Mr. Ian Davidson, Mr. Ian James, Mrs. Siân C. Munn, Meg Austin, John Davies, Mr. Dai Jenkins, Mr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Bailey, Mr. Adrian Davies, Mr. Quentin Johnson, rh Alan Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Bain, Mr. William Dean, Mrs. Janet Johnson, Ms Diana R. Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Baird, Vera Denham, rh Mr. John Jones, Helen Naysmith, Dr. Doug Balls, rh Ed Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jones, Mr. Kevan O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Banks, Gordon Dismore, Mr. Andrew Jones, Lynne O’Hara, Mr. Edward Barlow, Ms Celia Dobbin, Jim Jones, Mr. Martyn Olner, Mr. Bill Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dobson, rh Frank Jowell, rh Tessa Osborne, Sandra Battle, rh John Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Joyce, Mr. Eric Palmer, Dr. Nick Bayley, Hugh Doran, Mr. Frank Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Pearson, Ian Beckett, rh Margaret Drew, Mr. David Keeley, Barbara Plaskitt, Mr. James Begg, Miss Anne Durkan, Mark Keen, Alan Pope, Mr. Greg Bell, Sir Stuart Eagle, Angela Keen, Ann Pound, Stephen Benn, rh Hilary Eagle, Maria Kelly, rh Ruth Prentice, Bridget Benton, Mr. Joe Efford, Clive Kemp, Mr. Fraser Prentice, Mr. Gordon Berry, Roger Ellman, Mrs. Louise Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Prescott, rh Mr. John Betts, Mr. Clive Engel, Natascha Kidney, Mr. David Primarolo, rh Dawn Blackman, Liz Ennis, Jeff Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Prosser, Gwyn Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Farrelly, Paul Kumar, Dr. Ashok Purchase, Mr. Ken Blears, rh Hazel Field, rh Mr. Frank Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Purnell, rh James Borrow, Mr. David S. Fisher, Mark Lammy, rh Mr. David Rammell, Bill Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Fitzpatrick, Jim Laxton, Mr. Bob Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Brennan, Kevin Flello, Mr. Robert Lazarowicz, Mark Reed, Mr. Andy Brown, Lyn Flint, rh Caroline Lepper, David Reed, Mr. Jamie Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Follett, Barbara Levitt, Tom Reid, rh John Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Mr. Michael Linton, Martin Riordan, Mrs. Linda Browne, rh Des (Worcester) Lloyd, Tony Robertson, Angus Bryant, Chris Foster, Michael Jabez Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Robertson, John Burden, Richard (Hastings and Rye) Love, Mr. Andrew Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Burgon, Colin Francis, Dr. Hywel Lucas, Ian Rooney, Mr. Terry Burnham, rh Andy Gapes, Mike Mackinlay, Andrew Roy, Mr. Frank Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gardiner, Barry MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Roy, Lindsay Byrne, rh Mr. Liam George, rh Mr. Bruce Mactaggart, Fiona Ruane, Chris Cairns, David Gerrard, Mr. Neil Malik, Mr. Shahid Ruddock, Joan Campbell, Mr. Alan Gilroy, Linda Mallaber, Judy Russell, Christine Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Godsiff, Mr. Roger Marris, Rob Ryan, rh Joan Caton, Mr. Martin Goggins, rh Paul Marsden, Mr. Gordon Salter, Martin Cawsey, Mr. Ian Goodman, Helen Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Challen, Colin Griffith, Nia Martlew, Mr. Eric Seabeck, Alison Chapman, Ben Griffiths, Nigel Mason, John Sharma, Mr. Virendra Clapham, Mr. Michael Gwynne, Andrew McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Shaw, Jonathan Clark, Ms Katy Hain, rh Mr. Peter McCabe, Steve Sheerman, Mr. Barry Clark, Paul Hall, Mr. Mike McCarthy, Kerry Sheridan, Jim Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hall, Patrick McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Simon, Mr. Siôn Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Simpson, Alan Clelland, Mr. David Hanson, rh Mr. David McDonagh, Siobhain Skinner, Mr. Dennis Clwyd, rh Ann Harman, rh Ms Harriet McDonnell, John Slaughter, Mr. Andy Coaker, Mr. Vernon Harris, Mr. Tom McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Coffey, Ann Havard, Mr. Dai McFall, rh John Smith, Ms Angela C. Cohen, Harry Healey, rh John McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Connarty, Michael Hendrick, Mr. Mark McIsaac, Shona Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Cook, Frank Hepburn, Mr. Stephen McKechin, Ann Smith, Geraldine Cooper, Rosie Heppell, Mr. John McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Smith, rh Jacqui Cooper, rh Yvette Hesford, Stephen Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Snelgrove, Anne Corbyn, Jeremy Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Meale, Mr. Alan Soulsby, Sir Peter Cousins, Jim Heyes, David Merron, Gillian Southworth, Helen 753 Education, Training and Skills 13 JANUARY 2010 754

Spellar, rh Mr. John Watson, Mr. Tom Energy Security Spink, Bob Watts, Mr. Dave Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Weir, Mr. Mike Stewart, Ian Whitehead, Dr. Alan Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I advise the Stoate, Dr. Howard Wicks, rh Malcolm House that Mr. Speaker has selected the amendment in Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Williams, rh Mr. Alan the name of the Prime Minister. I ask all hon. Members Straw, rh Mr. Jack Williams, Mrs. Betty who are not staying for this debate please to leave the Stringer, Graham Williams, Hywel Chamber as quickly and quietly as possible. Stuart, Ms Gisela Wills, rh Mr. Michael Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Wilson, Phil 4.17 pm Tami, Mark Winnick, Mr. David Taylor, Ms Dari Winterton, rh Ms Rosie (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): I beg to move, Taylor, Dr. Richard Woolas, Mr. Phil That this House notes the impending retirement of over Thomas, Mr. Gareth Wright, Mr. Anthony 20 gigawatts of UK generating capacity, the ongoing depletion of Thornberry, Emily Wright, David North Sea oil and gas reserves and the nation’s growing dependency Todd, Mr. Mark Wright, Mr. Iain on imported fossil fuels; further notes the high and volatile prices Touhig, rh Mr. Don of those imports and the threats to the constancy and adequacy Wright, Dr. Tony Trickett, Jon of their supply; regrets that British energy policy has failed to Wyatt, Derek Turner, Dr. Desmond change with these circumstances and that, consequently, the Twigg, Derek Tellers for the Noes: nation’s energy security has been compromised, as exemplified by Waltho, Lynda Mr. Bob Blizzard and the low levels of UK gas storage capacity; acknowledges that Ward, Claire fundamental reforms to the energy policy framework are required in order to attract the investment required to guarantee reliable, affordable and sustainable energy supplies; calls upon the Government Question accordingly negatived. to take immediate action to ensure diversity in new electricity Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), generating capacity and adequate levels of natural gas storage; That the proposed words be there added. and, recognising that energy efficiency is the most cost-effective means of meeting Britain’s energy needs, further calls upon the Question agreed to. Government to implement policies capable of accelerating the The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as deployment of efficiency improvements to millions of domestic amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). and non-domestic buildings, in particular to the homes of the growing number of fuel-poor households. Resolved, If ever the House needed a reminder of the importance That this House recognises the Government’s commitment to of affordable, reliable energy supplies, this winter has maintaining investment in apprenticeships, higher education and skills and its commitment not to repeat the mistakes of past provided it. It has also reminded us that the measures recessions, and to ensure that young people are not trapped in that we need to take to safeguard the security of those long-term unemployment; notes that since 1997 there have been supplies will be tested. As the Engineering Employers 339,000 extra students in higher education, more than ever before, Federation said last week: and that public funding has increased by over 25 per cent. in real “The long-standing vulnerability in our energy system has terms creating the world-class higher education sector enjoyed been exposed…As a nation we need to take security of energy today; further notes the Government’s commitment to managed supply more seriously.” growth in higher education to sustain quality and success in widening access, creating the most diverse student population This time around, a number of businesses on interruptible ever; commends the Government’s commitment to helping graduates gas contracts were cut off. Thankfully, supplies to residential through the downturn; further notes that investment in apprenticeships customers were maintained, but this is no cause for today is over £1 billion in 2009-10, and that in 1997 there were complacency. Temperatures have been unusually low, only 65,000 starts compared to 240,000 in 2008-09; further notes but the effects of the recession have depressed underlying the success of Train to Gain in supporting over 1.4 million course demand. Fortunately, there has been no repeat this starts; commends the September Guarantee offering all 16 and winter of the unresolved dispute between Russia and 17 year olds an apprenticeship, school, college or training place; and acknowledges the Government’s investment of £1.2 billion in Ukraine, which has meant that supplies from that region the Future Jobs Fund to guarantee a job, training or work have so far not been disrupted. There is, however, no experience for every young person unemployed for 12 months, guarantee that we shall not have another cold winter, or and the graduate guarantee giving graduates unemployed for six that Russia will not turn off the taps in the future, or months a guarantee of a high-quality internship or training, or that we shall not have a problem with the Rough storage help to become self-employed. facility, as happened four years ago. The Government know that, as Shakespeare said: “When sorrows come, they come not single spies, but in battalions”. The only thing that we should expect is that unexpected events will happen. To guarantee our energy security not just most of the time but all the time, we need to be prepared. The head of Ofgem has said: “The headline fact is that Britain is the single most exposed country among the big players in Europe”. Current energy policy is not adequately prepared for what could have been, and should have been, foreseen. Let me say from the outset that I do not blame the Secretary of State for this. After all, he has been in the job for just over a year, and it has taken at least 10 years of drift to leave Britain this unprepared for the energy 755 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 756

[Greg Clark] such large offshore oil and gas deposits underground in the North sea? If that is the case, and if that is the challenges of the 21st century. I strongly suspect that he justification for his predecessors’ failure in not providing privately shares our analysis of the situation. He himself more gas storage facilities, why has the other major said today that western industrialised country, the United States, which “there is clearly an urgent need for additional gas storage”, has substantial underground deposits of oil and gas, and I welcome that recognition. He says that we should been creating significant strategic storage capacity over have more gas storage and greater diversity of supply, the past 10 years? including nuclear power and renewables, and that we should promote energy efficiency. I think that there is Greg Clark: I agree with my hon. Friend, but the fact agreement on this that crosses party lines. that the Secretary of State has described the situation as “urgent” may indicate that he has moved on a bit from Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire) (Con): My hon. Friend that position. makes an important point. The Committee that I chair, As I have said, I do not think that this issue should which is of course a cross-party Committee, has repeatedly divide us. Over the past few days the United Kingdom-based warned of the dangers of inadequate gas storage. It is Chemical Industries Association carried out a survey an eminently foreseeable problem which should have following which it reported that nearly half its members been dealt with sooner. Can he suggest any reasons for believed that increased storage was essential to future the failure to deal with such an obvious problem much investment by companies in the UK, and over a third more quickly? claimed that the current uncertainty of supply—caused by a lack of gas storage—was restricting the ability of Greg Clark: I am afraid I cannot, but my hon. Friend the sector to invest in the UK. The situation is, as the is right to draw attention to the work of the Select Secretary of State says, urgent. Committee on Business and Enterprise over the years. In its landmark report “Energy prices, fuel poverty and Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) Ofgem”, produced in 2008, it stated: (LD): The consensual tone of the hon. Gentleman’s “This is an issue our predecessor Committee raised in its 2002 opening remarks is in notable contrast to comments and 2005 Reports on security of supply and fuel prices. Significant that he has made publicly in the press over the past additional storage, beyond that currently planned, is needed to reduce volatility in the wholesale gas price…It is now an issue of seven days. He claimed that we had only eight days of national importance and should be a high priority in domestic gas storage left. National Grid immediately dismissed energy policy.” that as a “meaningless figure” which totally ignored the As I have said, I cannot blame the Secretary of State for amount of national supply that we have available. Will that. It was his predecessors who should have responded the hon. Gentleman now apologise for what was an in a timely fashion. I am glad that he now sees the need unnecessary, alarmist, inaccurate and misleading comment? to respond to the challenge, albeit late in the day. Greg Clark: Of course I will not apologise. I think Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) that if there is one significant threat to the country’s (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman take into account the energy security, it is the possibility that the complacent specific needs of individual gas storage applications? approach of the hon. Gentleman’s party will be adopted An application for underground storage on the border by others. I think he should listen to the counsel of his of my constituency and that of the hon. Member for colleague the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Wallace)—I am pleased to see (John Hemming), who has taken a long-standing interest that he is present—is strongly opposed by our constituents in this problem and has repeatedly urged us to act on it. on grounds relating to the geology of the area. Gas As he believes this is an urgent issue, I assume he thinks storage applications must be examined case by case to we should increase the amount of capacity we have. The ensure that they are safe before it is decided that they fact is that, at the best of times, we currently have should proceed in the national interest. 16 days’ worth of storage capacity, whereas France has 120 and Germany has 100. Therefore, apart from the Greg Clark: I agree with the hon. Lady to an extent. Liberal Democrats, I do not think anyone believes the Of course it is necessary to consider whether individual amount that we have is adequate; and, of course, when locations are suitable for storage purposes. That makes we have high winter demand, such as we saw recently, perfect sense. It is clear that if something as important that maximum level of 16 days becomes much less. One as gas is to be stored, safety must be paramount. problem is that the concentration of our storage capacity However, I do not think that that should lead us to the at present means that it is difficult to withdraw it from conclusion that we should not nationally move towards storage at the rate that we could use it in cold snaps greater gas storage. The fact that investigations of this such as the current one. Therefore, as well as a greater kind take some time to complete is all the more reason increase in the number of days of storage, we need to begin them earlier, so that they need not be conducted greater diversity so we can get it into the system more in a rush and there is not the exposure that we have quickly. begun to see in recent years. Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): I ask my Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): My hon. Friend is hon. Friend to resist the temptation to listen to the being characteristically generous-hearted to the Secretary Liberal Democrats on this issue, on the basis that they of State. Is this not the Secretary of State who, only a are always in favour of things in general and against few days ago, told the media that we did not need to them in particular when there is a single vote to be worry about gas storage in this country because we had gained. 757 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 758

Greg Clark: I would agree with my right hon. Friend, The Secretary of State expresses a view with which who has always taken a responsible position on this we all agree—that we need increased capacity in our gas subject, if I thought this was a good electoral strategy storage system. I was surprised by the wording of the for the Liberal Democrats, but I do not believe that Liberal amendment, which is alarmingly complacent. I refusing to participate in a serious discussion that will hope that at least between those on the two Front ensure that we increase the resilience of our national Benches there will be agreement on the action that is energy supply will convince the electors at all. now required to guarantee Britain’s energy security, not least because that action involves long-term decisions. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I ask the We should not seek to make short-term differences. hon. Gentleman, in the spirit of transparency called for Companies will make major investment decisions worth by his colleague, the right hon. Member for Suffolk, £200 billion and lasting 20, 30 or 40 years. We should Coastal (Mr. Gummer), to clarify his position on the aim for a long-term view of diversity and more robust following question, which greatly concerns my constituents. sources of supply. What is the Conservative party stance on land-based British energy policy has been exposed as out of date. wind turbines? While one may very well be in favour of It was designed 25 years ago for a world in which offshore turbines, it would cause great disturbance to Britain had an excess of generating capacity, where we my constituents if the volume of turbines that is proposed enjoyed the security of growing North sea oil and gas were to be built. I have asked the following question on production, and where concerns about local pollution many occasions, but no Conservative Front-Bench and international climate change were not as intense as spokesperson has answered it: if the Conservative party they are now. However, power plants get old, fossil fuel is elected to office, will it change the turbine policy of reserves dwindle away, and pollution builds up to crisis the current Government? proportions. The Government have had ample warning Greg Clark: We think that, in order to secure our on all those fronts. energy supplies in future, we need diversity of energy Power plant lifetimes are a matter of record. The sources. It was Churchill who said that the security of Government knew that our existing fleet of power our energy supply lies in diversity and diversity alone, stations would need to be replaced. The peaking and and it is important that we have contributions to our decline of North sea production has long been predicted supply from across the piece. Therefore, we would change and was already under way at the beginning of the that policy, because one of the problems with the current Government’s first term, with obvious implications for onshore wind policy regime is that many communities— dependence on fossil fuel imports. In their 1997 election including some in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency, manifesto, the Government promised a 20 per cent. cut perhaps—feel they gain no advantage from the siting of in carbon emissions by 2010, thereby serving notice on wind farms in their locality.They are sometimes concerned themselves that a transition to cleaner sources of energy about what they might see as risks—they might not would be required. know whether the wind farms will be noisy, or what the Despite the transformation some time ago of the impact will be. They will therefore often decide—on a basic assumptions underlying energy policy, the policy precautionary principle, perhaps—to oppose the application framework has remained fundamentally unchanged. A because there is no countervailing argument. On the framework designed for an age of plenty is still with us continent, however, wind farms tend to be much more in an age of insecurity. Sometimes Government are community-based and community-owned. Whether in overtaken by events, but in respect of energy policy, the Denmark or Spain, the communities that host wind Government saw what was coming and did not do farms share in the benefits, such as by receiving revenue enough about it. from the electricity sold or, in many cases, getting Let me explain where that leaves us in terms of the cheaper electricity. Our policy is to return some of those main areas of energy use—first, electricity. Back in July benefits—through the first six years of business rates, the Department of Energy and Climate Change unveiled for example—and to look into how we might provide its energy plan for the coming decade. It is good that cheaper electricity to the communities involved. That at there is such a plan and it is perhaps the most important least provides a more balanced debate. document that the Department has published to date, but it contained a dark secret. It revealed that Ministers Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): I were expecting blackouts across Britain in the years am grateful to the Conservative party for holding a ahead. debate on energy security. I agree that diversity of supply is important. It used to appear, to Labour Members A chart in that document showed a big rise in what at least, that the Conservative party’s policy on nuclear— are called expected energy unserved, otherwise known which, interestingly, is not mentioned at all in its motion— as power cuts. From virtually no blackouts now, the was to pop down to the supermarket and buy one if Government said that they expected the level to rise to necessary. Life is not like that. Has the hon. Gentleman’s 3,000 MWh by 2017. That is the equivalent of three party changed its policy on nuclear, and if so, what is it nuclear power stations shutting down at the same time, now? or to put it another way, 1 million people losing power for 15 minutes more than 20 times in the course of a Greg Clark: I shall talk about nuclear later. I am year. Worse still, shortages would most likely strike at pro-nuclear; I believe we need to get on with it. I think times of peak demand—that is, on the coldest winter that one of the problems we face is that we now have a evenings. The head of Ofgem warned us that the years gap between the end of the planned life of our current following 2015 could be very cold indeed. [Interruption.] fleet of nuclear power stations and the earliest possible The Minister sometimes complains, as he is doing date at which we can get new ones. That gap should not now from a sedentary position, that the chart is taken be there; we should have avoided creating it. out of context and that we ought not to make use of it 759 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 760

[Greg Clark] made the other day by the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister is a step in the right direction. However, in this way. We have always been very careful to make its it is regrettable that many of the jobs that could be context clear. It is an official projection included in an generated, not least in constituencies such as those of official Government publication, freely available not the hon. Gentleman, are less certain than they might just to the Opposition, but to anyone considering whether have been had we been further ahead and had not other to invest in this country over the next 10 years. countries established a lead. Let me turn to coal. Our power sector, in which I include coal, will certainly need investment. Anyone Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): One of the problems who believes in diversity, as I do, needs to look at fuel with renewables, especially in Scotland, involves the sources right across the range. It is worth noting that, in transmission charges for bringing the energy into the the course of the big freeze that we have had during grid. What would be the hon. Gentleman’s policy on over the past week, coal plant has at times supplied that? Would he take action to reduce transmission more than 40 per cent. of our electricity, helping to charges or introduce a postage stamp scheme whereby relieve pressure on gas supplies. The pressure on gas transmission charges would be equal across the UK? supplies would have been very much worse if we had Greg Clark: I cannot give a commitment that charges been in the situation that we will arrive at in the next few should be equal, but I recognise the point that the hon. years, when a third of our coal generating capacity is Gentleman makes. It is no good developing plants that withdrawn. generate significant capacity offshore if we cannot then Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): Is the hon. bring that energy onshore. We have suggested that the Gentleman satisfied that most of that coal will come National Grid—it is keen to do this—should build its from places such as Russia, where 6,000 miners a year onshore network offshore so that it is easier for promoters are dying, so we are getting energy at the cost of of renewable energy offshore, whether wind, wave or people’s lives? That would not have been the case if his tidal, to get it to where the customers are. former Government had not done away with the best Mr. Weir rose— mining industry in the world. Greg Clark: I want to make progress now, because Greg Clark: There will be a future for UK coal within lots of Members want to speak. If I have time, I will that, but it depends on a number of factors. The hon. take the hon. Gentleman’s intervention later. Gentleman is absolutely right that we import a lot of coal from Russia. Coal is clearly more readily available On carbon capture and storage, I am afraid that the and easily stocked than gas, so it contributes to energy Government have dithered; I take no pleasure in pointing security. I share his concerns about the safety situation that out. In 2007, there was the announcement of a there. We want to ensure that we operate using supplies token competition for just one demonstration plant. that come from sources we can be proud of and confident Last year, there was a much more encouraging sign about. I hope that in due course we can have more of a from the Secretary of State, after he took over, when he source of supply from this country as well. However, stood up in this House and made a bold announcement that depends on making progress on carbon capture on CCS. There is to be an expanded demonstration and storage. If we subscribe, rightly, to a set of emissions plant programme— targets that require CO2 emissions to come down by 80 per cent. by 2050, we will need to make a breakthrough The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change on CCS if we are to able to use coal as an addition to (Edward Miliband): There will be four. our diversity of supply. Greg Clark: Indeed. There will presumably be a second John Thurso (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) competition to embrace a wider range of CCS technology, (LD): The hon. Gentleman has rightly mentioned diversity for which Conservative Members have been calling for of supply on several occasions. In that regard, will he some time. However, despite the first competition having clarify what his party’s views will be in respect of been announced in 2007, the winner has yet to be offshore wind and marine tidal renewable energy? The announced. The indications are that it will not be until July White Paper calls for, from memory, some 33 GW 2011 at the earliest. As for the second competition, it is of generation. Much of that development is taking not even open yet. If I am wrong I shall be delighted to place in my constituency, with the potential for a great be corrected by the Secretary of State, because I would many jobs to replace those at Dounreay, which is being welcome greater progress. decommissioned. There is obviously uncertainty over I should mention a third competition, of course. As the long term, and it would be most helpful if he could the Secretary of State knows, the one taking place in clarify his position. several countries and run by the European Union managed to announce the winners by autumn last year. I would Greg Clark: I am delighted to do that. Our party is simply observe that any organisation that can be outpaced strongly pro the development of offshore wind and by the European Commission has major problems. marine and tidal energy. Given the renewables resources Unfortunately, foot dragging and bureaucracy is what that we have in this country, with one of the longest we have come to expect from this Administration. The coastlines in Europe and some of the best conditions to chaotic history of their policy on CCS has turned what allow the harnessing of the power of the wind and the could be a leading position for Britain into one in which tides, it is a source of great regret that we have made so we now lag behind China, Canada, Germany and Belgium. little progress on that. Only Malta and Luxembourg generate less of their energy from renewables than we Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD): Will the hon. do. We need to accelerate that process. The announcement Gentleman give way? 761 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 762

Greg Clark: I want to make a bit of progress, and coal, which is absolutely right, but the Government are then I will give way. adamant that they will not include gas in the levy that Nuclear, which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, will shortly be rolled out. Why are we not looking to the South-West (Rob Marris) mentioned, is another example future and ensuring that the coal-fired power stations, of Government foot dragging. For years we have known which will all close in 2020, are replaced with gas-fired when each of Britain’s nuclear power stations would be power stations? We should be thinking about CCS for retired. When the Government came to power, nuclear gas as well. provided 26 per cent. of our electricity. Today, that Greg Clark: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for contribution stands at just 13 per cent. and is set to fall making that point. If we want to establish leadership on further as more stations are retired. Ministers were well that, it is important that for demonstration purposes we aware that replacing that lost capacity in good time examine all the technologies that are available. If, as I required an early go-ahead, but it was not until the 2007 believe, we will not reduce our dependence on gas, it will energy White Paper that it was given. It was another be important in meeting our emissions target that we two years before the necessary changes to the planning can capture carbon dioxide emissions from gas in due regime were put in place. With the exception of Sizewell course. The Secretary of State is a reasonable man, and B, every existing nuclear power station will have reached often when amendments are tabled he undertakes to the end of its planned life before it is even possible to consider them carefully. I hope that he will do so on this replace it with a new one. Of course, the current timetable occasion and reflect on whether the matter can be assumes that there will be no further delays. Given the included in the competition. That would be a good track record of recent years, we cannot rely on that. thing to do. Mr. Jamie Reed (Copeland) (Lab): Will the hon. Martin Horwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Gentleman give way? Greg Clark: I will not, but I might later if I make Greg Clark: I will, because I know that the nuclear better progress through the points that I want to make interest is very important in the hon. Gentleman’s than I am at the moment. constituency. I mentioned renewables and the importance of ensuring Mr. Reed: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Fans diversity of supply. However, there is another important of satire will be listening to his comments with real point that comes from renewables: if we do not address interest, because the single biggest problem with the some of the technical factors of renewables, such as nuclear industry in this country can be traced back intermittency, we could exacerbate the problem of energy directly to the last Conservative Government’s abysmal security rather than solve it. For example, I am not failure to deal with radioactive waste management. confident that we have the policies to build the back-up That is the root of the current reality. capacity that we will need if we are to have a greater contribution from intermittent renewables. The conclusion Greg Clark: I have been disappointed by the hon. of a comparative study commission by National Grid Gentleman’s recent interventions on this matter. I have and a number of other organisations stated: followed his speeches over the years, and he has recognised “While the Irish market is able to continually incentivise new the importance that his constituents and people in his peaking plant with increasing wind penetration, we are concerned region place on certainty and continuity of policy. that there is a real challenge in delivering very low load factor However, just in the past few debates he has taken a plant in the British market.” partisan approach to these issues that is against his That needs to be addressed. constituents’ interests. In the interests of their employment, Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab) rose— he ought to reflect on the signals that he gives. Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con): No; I want to Mr. Reed rose— make some progress. Greg Clark: I will not give way, because I have given That brings me to the subject of gas, which has the hon. Gentleman his chance. occupied our attention in recent days. Gas is a crucial fuel. As well as providing heat, it is our most important Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): I just wish source of electricity, in terms of both quantity and the to put on record what we all know. There have been flexibility with which gas-fired plants can meet fluctuations Secretaries of State in this Government dealing with in supply and demand. Yet despite the pivotal and matters of nuclear waste who have refused to allow any growing importance of gas in supplying our energy papers regarding nuclear policy to cross their desk as a needs, the rapid decline of North sea production and matter of principle. It is ideology, such as that from the proven threats to the security of our pipeline supplies, right hon. Member for Derby, South (), we are still unable to store enough gas to see us safely that has paralysed the Government. through the coldest months. The consequences of that failure to plan ahead have been exposed in the past Greg Clark: I said that I wanted to be constructive, 10 days. and I welcome the Government’s conversion to a more sensible policy. Shona McIsaac: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): In Greg Clark: No, I will not. the spirit of being constructive, may I urge my hon. In that period, National Grid issued no fewer than Friend to urge the Secretary of State to include gas in four gas balancing alerts and supplies came under strain carbon capture and storage? We are currently debating from the record level of demand. That boils down to that issue in Committee. We are talking about CCS for four basic flaws in the current system. First, there is 763 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 764

[Greg Clark] I said that we need more storage. Secondly, there are limits to how quickly that gas in storage can be extracted. simply not enough storage capacity—no one apart from At the start of December 2009, Britain’s biggest storage the Liberal Democrats doubts that. I mentioned that we site, the offshore Rough facility, was 99 per cent. full. have, at best, about 16 days’ worth, compared to 100 in Throughout the cold snap, Rough has been pumping Germany and 122 in France. Ministers have dismissed out gas at its maximum capacity, but that has still not that. been enough to prevent the need for gas balancing alerts. Shona McIsaac: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? Thirdly, we have an insufficient margin for error. Our Greg Clark: I have been generous in taking interventions small stocks should be just enough to get us through a so I now want to make progress. long cold snap. However, as I mentioned earlier, if just Ministers dismissed that comparison, saying that our one other thing goes wrong, the knock-on impact will declining North sea supply means that everything is still be enough to tip us over the edge into a system whereby supplied, but that is dangerously complacent, because it might be much more difficult to cope. Fourthly and the Netherlands, which relies much less than us on finally, we should not confuse a system that prioritises imports, has three times as much storage relative to who gets cut off with one that minimises cut-offs. consumption—[Interruption.] I think hon. Members Businesses, many of which have interruptible contracts, are pointing out that I have not taken any interventions were the first to have their gas supplies stopped. That from a woman. If that is a deficiency, I am happy to helps to maintain the supply of gas into people’s homes, remedy it by taking one from the hon. Member for but it is bad news for the businesses that are struggling Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac). to emerge from the recession and remain open in these difficult times. As the Energy Intensive Users Group Shona McIsaac: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his says, there is a real risk that disruptions could become generosity. Is he aware that my constituency is probably more frequent. That would hit manufacturing hard and the one with the highest number of gas power stations risk damaging the UK’s reputation, as well as future in the country? Today, the local authority is giving its inward investment. seal of approval to a biomass power station, which is The realisation that Britain needs more gas storage is going to create enough renewable energy to supply not new. As I mentioned, the Business and Enterprise more than 500,000 homes. I therefore know quite a lot Committee, chaired by my hon. Friend the Member for about the energy issue in this country.The hon. Gentleman Mid-Worcestershire (Peter Luff), first highlighted the must stop scaring the British public. There is far more issue in 2002 and it has highlighted it repeatedly since gas in storage than he says there is, and far more gas then. According to— that is easily available from the North sea and other sources. Will he stop scaring people about the lack of Shona McIsaac rose— gas, because it is simply not true? Greg Clark: The hon. Lady’s first point was constructive, Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab) rose— and I share her welcome for the biomass plant—as I said, diversity is important, and the plant will help to Greg Clark: No, I will not give way. create British jobs—but she is wrong to choose to ignore the problem of inadequate gas storage. We do According to a recent written answer, the Government not often get to talk about such things and people are expect to build another 500 million cubic metres of not aware of them but, at times like this, when we see capacity by 2012—another two days’ worth of additional how little we have, it is important to galvanise support storage. Will the Secretary of State stand up in the for action. House and claim that that is an adequate rate of increase? Perhaps we should all cross our fingers and hope that Let us take the Engineering Employers Federation we will not have another winter like this one. and the Energy Intensive Users Group. In a letter today, they say: I want to give time for my hon. Friends and hon. Members from all parties to contribute to this debate. “The bottom line is that the UK energy system was unable” Making up for the lost opportunities of a wasted decade last week will take some time. However, we must move forward “to meet the needs of all consumers…To dismiss”, with a sense of urgency. The issue is about not only as the hon. Lady seems to do, catching up with the past but getting ready for a future “last week’s interruption as a one-off also ignores the growing in which the global production of fossil fuels—especially risks associated with increasing dependence on gas from overseas. oil production, on which our transport systems are The long-standing vulnerability in our energy system has been almost entirely dependent—will come under increasing exposed—the UK has significantly lower storage capacity relative strain. to demand than most other major gas-consuming economies.” That came from the Engineering Employers Federation Mainstream voices, including oil industry chief executives, and the Energy Intensive Users Group; it is what British and even Ministers from nations belonging to the employers say is necessary for them to continue in Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries, have business and to continue to expand their businesses. already warned that the age of easy oil is over. The International Energy Agency has said that it expects Several hon. Members rose— crude oil production to level off by 2030. In Britain, the UK Energy Research Centre, a joint initiative of the Greg Clark: I want to be fair and to make progress. leading research councils, with which the Secretary of Many Members wish to speak and there is a time limit State will be familiar, has said that we could hit that on speeches. limit by 2020. 765 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 766

When asked what contingency plans they had for drive towards greater energy efficiency in homes through programmes such an eventuality, the UK Government said that they such as Warm Front, the Carbon Emissions Reductions Target did not have any because they did not think the situation and Community Energy Savings Programme, all of which contribute was that urgent. That answer should fill us with dread, to fighting fuel poverty, and in businesses through programmes such as the forthcoming Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy but it is one that we have heard time after time. It is Efficiency Schemes; commends the Government’s wider plans to symptomatic of an attitude that in the past has been embark on the Great British Refurb, where up to seven million complacent and has not involved the action that we homes will have whole house makeovers by 2020; and further could have foreseen was needed. It explains, among supports an approach based on strategic government and dynamic other things, why we do not have enough gas storage markets that maintains the country’s energy security as well as capacity. It also explains why we do not have an adequate developing more diverse energy supplies, including clean coal, margin of generating capacity for electricity in this renewable and nuclear energy.”. country and why we have not made sufficient progress The speech made by the hon. Member for Tunbridge on carbon capture and storage, nuclear and renewable Wells (Greg Clark) is a curious speech to follow. One is energy. It is why we are wasting the chance to insulate normally tempted to say that the Opposition offer easy our homes and stop wasting energy; we may discuss answers, but on the central issues that he complained that issue later in the debate. about, he offered no answers. If ever we needed We need a policy for generating energy, not excuses. confirmation that it is up to those on the Labour We need to rebuild the security of our energy systems Benches to answer the difficult questions that Britain and infrastructure with significantly higher levels of gas faces, the hon. Gentleman’s speech was an example of storage. On electricity generation, the Government must that. make it crystal clear that a collapsing margin of supply I want to start by thanking the people who have over demand is in no way acceptable. If current trading played such an important role in protecting our energy arrangements cannot guarantee that the lights will stay supplies during the longest spell of cold weather for on, those arrangements must be reformed. That means 30 years. I thank the operators and engineers of the unblocking progress across the broadest possible spectrum national grid, the people working in the oil and gas of energy uses. That is why we welcome the Government’s fields of the North sea and the people who have gone national planning statements on nuclear, renewables out to repair power lines in the most inclement conditions and other key technologies, but it is also why we believe for their work. They are the people who keep the lights that they should be ratified by a vote of Parliament, to on in this country and guarantee security of supply. We protect them against the threat of judicial review, which all owe them a debt of gratitude. could delay progress for even more years. In the gas system, the cold weather produced record We also, of course, need to build the enabling demand on consecutive days last week, with demand at infrastructure for those technologies—for instance, the 468 million cubic metres—a figure that is far higher smart meters in our homes, an offshore grid for renewables than the previous record. The surge in demand came and pipelines for carbon capture and storage. Continued alongside four major losses of supply from Norwegian delay and uncertainty on these vital networks will cost fields as a result of the very cold weather there. It is us dear as investors turn to other countries while Britain worth saying that, despite some of the statements that is left behind. the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells was making last Finally, if we are serious about reducing demand, we week, apart from a short period last week when there must act to make sure that, as we go further into a were restrictions for a small number of companies that winter during which fuel poverty is rising, we make it had discounted gas as part of interruptible contracts, easy for people to find ways to make fuel consumption the gas supply has been operating for households and in their homes more modest and efficient. In place of businesses as it would on any day of the year. We need unwanted light bulbs, we need a green deal to make a to keep monitoring the situation as the winter progresses real difference to our energy bills and a real contribution and we always keep the system under review—it is very to our energy security. The solutions to our energy crisis important that the Government do that—but the system are within our reach. All that we need is a Government has shown resilience despite the strain of cold weather with the vision, the will and, dare I say it, the energy to and supply loss. make things happen. Why has the system shown such resilience over the past 10 days or so? One of the reasons is the action 4.55 pm taken by this Government in the last four years, since The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change the fire that occurred at the Rough storage facility in (Edward Miliband): I beg to move an amendment, to 2005-06, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned. On leave out from ‘House’ to end and add: peak days last week, we were able to serve almost a third of our demand—142 million cubic metres out of a total “notes that around 20 gigawatts of new power generation is either under construction or has been consented to; believes that during demand of 468 million—through new sources of supply a time of historically low temperatures and the highest ever gas that simply did not exist four or five years ago. Those demand in recent days, the country’s energy infrastructure has include the Langeled pipeline from Norway, the BBL shown resilience; further notes the increase in gas import capacity pipeline from the Netherlands, and the South Hook by 500 per cent. in the last decade, and the increase in the diversity and Dragon liquefied natural gas terminals at Milford of sources of gas, including liquefied natural gas and gas imports Haven. That did not happen by accident. It was our through interconnectors with Norway and continental Europe; agreement with Norway in 2005 that made the pipelines commends the Planning Act 2008, which has created the circumstances for greater onshore gas storage as well as for new nuclear power possible. The work that was done with and the stations and other low carbon energy infrastructure, and the investors in Milford Haven—billions of pounds of Energy Act 2008 which has created the circumstances for greater investment was provided—made possible the LNG offshore gas storage; backs the development of the grid to make it terminals, and it was the willingness to ensure an open ready for a low-carbon energy mix; supports the Government’s market in the UK made those investments possible. 767 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 768

[Edward Miliband] Edward Miliband: The right hon. Gentleman, about whom I made admiring remarks last week—I slightly Those things could happen only because of the proactive regret it now—is known for being beyond partisan role of Government in enabling the new facilities. The politics, at least most of the time, so I do not think that chief executive of National Grid, Steve Holliday, said those comments become him. I do not know what he last week that means by 50 years’ time. We have set clear targets, at “we’ve seen the benefits of the investment of the last five years least on low carbon emissions, for much sooner than in where the UK can now import 30 per cent. of its gas internationally 50 years’ time, and we are clear about our energy policy, that it couldn’t five years ago”. as I shall explain. So the central claim that the hon. Gentleman has been I want to say something else that is important in making—at least in the television studios, when they setting the context for this debate. People are hard-pressed have invited him on—which is that this Government at the moment, including on gas and electricity bills. In have not acted is, of course, nonsense. I welcome the a sense, however, this is a comparative debate with the tone that he employed today much more than I welcome rest of Europe, so it is worth saying that gas prices here the tone that he uses in the television studios. I hope are the lowest in Europe, as they have been for domestic that he learns something from the experience of the customers for the past five years. That says something past few weeks. Playing politics with energy security about the nature of our system. It does not mean that it does no good to anyone, and it is exactly the kind of is not capable of improvement. All systems are capable tactic that turns people off politics. of improvement, and we should always learn lessons. However, it is important to make this point, particularly Dr. Andrew Murrison (Westbury) (Con): I wonder when people talk about prices spiking and so on: according what a constituent who wrote to me a couple of days to the most recent figures, we have the lowest prices in ago would say in response to the Secretary of State’s Europe. remarks. My constituent said that he was a major employer in our part of the county and was facing a Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): Perhaps critical situation with regard to maintaining production some of the Opposition’s misunderstanding comes from through having an interrupted gas supply. He was faced the wording in their own motion, which refers to the with a huge daily cost through having to switch to oil to “ongoing depletion of North Sea oil and gas”. maintain energy and heating to the plant, and he said They should tell that to the Norwegians, who have in that that was not sustainable for such a business. How place interconnectors supplying us with gas, as the many businesses, compared with businesses in France Secretary of State said. I can assure the House that or Germany, for example, were having the sort of there are as many known reserves in the UK bit of the interrupted supply that my constituent describes? North sea as there were in the 1970s. The reference to depletion suggests the ending of North sea gas, but that Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman asks a serious is some way down the line. In north-east Scotland, we question about a business in his constituency. Obviously fight that all the time, because people seem to think that we want to limit the number of interruptions to businesses, there is no longer oil and gas in the North sea. There is, although it is worth saying that the businesses that have there is a lot of it and it is important that it remains part chosen to take interruptible contracts have been getting of our energy mix. prices on average 5 to 10 per cent. lower as a result. I would like to make a slightly technical point about Edward Miliband: I am pleased that my hon. Friend the kind of interruptible contracts deployed last week. intervened, because she takes me to the right part of my The point is not about the amount of gas in the system; speech. Let me add that I enjoyed the offshore oil and it is about the pipe network. National Grid has said that gas industry reception last night that she hosted. when the pipe network reaches a certain level, a deal is It is important to ask what a strategy for gas involves made with those companies under which they get in this country. It involves three things. Maximising discounted gas. In exchange, however, during peak times production from our indigenous supplies is very important. and when there are exceptional circumstances, such as The North sea still supplies about 50 per cent. of our the recent cold weather and supply outage, their contracts gas supplies. That is why we took the action that we did will be interrupted. We want as few businesses as possible in the Budget and pre-Budget report—my right hon. to be interrupted, and I am glad that the business that Friend the Chancellor was a great advocate for this—to the hon. Gentleman mentioned had a back-up. There provide new tax allowances to support the development are no interruptions this week, so far, which is positive of particularly challenging oil and gas fields in the news. North sea. We did that to maximise production in the North sea. That is very important. My hon. Friend the Mr. Gummer: The right hon. Gentleman rightly warns Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) was right to us against playing politics with energy security, but say that we must not write off the North sea. It is home would he not agree that his Government played politics to a very important industry, and one that will remain with it for 10 years? They produced an energy policy in important for years to come. which they specifically removed every single date by which things would be done, except for one that was Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): The Secretary 50 years away, which meant that nobody involved would of State just said that the UK is currently experiencing be around to see whether what they said should happen the lowest gas prices in Europe. I am sure that he does did happen. Is it not true that for 10 years the Government not want to play politics with that claim, but I suspect have failed to step up to the decisions that had to be that he is talking about wholesale gas prices. When does made? he expect those prices to be passed on to consumers? 769 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 770

Edward Miliband: We want price reductions to be obstacle to more storage. We established an offshore passed on to consumers as quickly as possible. That is consents regime under the Energy Act 2008, but the important, and I have made that clear on numerous new Infrastructure Planning Commission is also important, occasions. However, I think that I am right in saying—I not just in relation to gas storage, but more generally. shall check back on this—that the figures that I quoted As the Opposition are, today at least, in the mood for are reflected in both wholesale and retail prices. seeking consensus, let me say that they should get on and support the Infrastructure Planning Commission’s Mr. Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth, East) (Con): It work. Business is saying loudly and clearly that it seems does not matter where the gas comes from—whether it odd that a party aspiring to government should be is through the Langeled pipeline or from the North saying, “We’re going to overhaul the planning regime,” sea—as long as we get it. The question that I would when we finally have a good planning regime in place. pose to the Secretary of State is as follows. The Government I know that the hon. Gentleman is not in charge of have rightly introduced targets to reduce CO2 emissions, the policy, but I hope that, having listened to this but if we are to achieve them by 2030 or 2050, we will debate, he will go and talk to the shadow Secretary of need to start carbon capture and storage for gas. May I State for Communities and Local Government, the therefore invite him to ensure that the legislation that is hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman), and say that going through the House which deals with carbon he has discovered the spirit of not playing party politics capture and storage for coal gives the option to consider on such questions and so should she. She should accept demonstration projects for gas as well? It seems a waste the planning regime that we are proposing, because it is of time to delay that now. Let us catch up, get ahead clearly the right way forward and will speed up the and ensure that gas is included. building of energy infrastructure in this country. Edward Miliband: We will look at all proposals, but Ms Celia Barlow (Hove) (Lab): I thank my right hon. what is the constraint? The constraint is that we are Friend for taking my intervention. Had the hon. Member spending up to £9.5 billion on carbon capture and for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) taken my intervention, storage from the levy, which will come from consumers I would have asked him whether his party’s opposition around the country. We think that the priority lies in to the Planning Act 2008 is damaging not only the having four coal-fired demonstration projects, but the possibility of storage for gas, but numerous renewable hon. Gentleman wants to tax more and to spend more projects that his party claims to support, one of which, from the levy. My hon. Friend the Minister of State will on a small scale, is in Brighton and Hove, where the obviously look at any proposals in Committee. Tory council voted against wind turbines on its own building. Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): When the Secretary of State says that the Government will look at all proposals, is he aware that his fellow Minister voted the Edward Miliband: The council obviously has not proposal down with her colleagues in Committee yesterday? followed the example of the Leader of the Opposition. My hon. Friend is completely right. Most right-thinking Edward Miliband: Obviously my hon. Friend looked people in the House think that the planning situation at the proposal and thought that it was not a good one. generally has been one of the big problems concerning energy infrastructure. We finally have a planning regime As well as the North sea, we need import capacity, that commands support, and it would be far better if which is up by 500 per cent. in the past decade. It is the Opposition saw the error of their ways and started important to say that import capacity now stands at to support it. 125 per cent. of the total UK demand for gas—that is, it is greater. That capacity comes from the Netherlands, Mr. Ben Wallace (Lancaster and Wyre) (Con): In my Norway, Germany, Algeria, Australia, Egypt, Qatar, constituency, a large planning application for underground and Trinidad and Tobago. Why is that list of countries gas storage facilities has been made by a company important? It is important because it emphasises the called Canatxx. The proposal area borders the constituency importance of diversity, which is key when it comes to of the hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood security of supply. To further increase import capacity, (Mrs. Humble). Both the Labour-controlled county the South Hook facility—an extraordinary facility that council and the Secretary of State have turned down the I urge people to visit, as I have, for its opening—is application, and it is now being resubmitted because of doubling capacity this quarter. We are also exploring the changes to planning legislation that the Secretary of additional pipeline capacity with other countries, which State has mentioned. The application was turned down is important. on the grounds of safety and failures in relation to Let me turn to storage, which the hon. Member for geology. The Secretary of State wants the Conservative Tunbridge Wells spent a lot of time talking about. The party to engage fully in the reform of planning, but will question is not whether we need more storage in the he confirm that such bodies should not overrule fears years ahead; the question is how we get it. What was about safety or geology in the interests of, perhaps, most disappointing about his speech was that, as far as I small lobbying companies such as Canatxx has become? could tell, he had no proposals on storage. He complained for most of his speech about what he saw as the lack of Edward Miliband: I shall not get into individual planning storage, but he had no suggestions for how we should applications, but I know that the IPC rightly takes get that storage. Let me provide my suggestions for how safety issues seriously. we need to get more storage in this country. First, we have the national policy statement on gas Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) infrastructure. One thing that has bedevilled the building (Lab): The hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre of more gas storage is the planning process, which is an (Mr. Wallace) and I have worked very closely on this 771 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 772

[Mrs. Joan Humble] “Any decision to proceed with strategic storage would risk displacing investment in commercial storage, as commercial players matter, which is of serious concern to all our constituents. would see the existence of strategic storage, which they would I recall having a debate on the new planning regulations, suspect might be accessed simply in response to high prices…as undermining their investment case.” and there is still a key role for listening to the voice of the community. In many ways, the new planning guidance What is good about my right hon. Friend’s report is that strengthens the voice of the community. I want that it shows that there are no easy answers in this area, voice to be heard in relation to the planning application while charting a way forward for the Government. We that Canatxx has put forward again, against the wishes will respond to his report, and over the coming months of everyone in the locality. to Ofgem’s project discovery work, including any recommendations, alongside the 2050 road map in the Edward Miliband: I am sure that my hon. Friend spring. forms a formidable duo with the hon. Member for Let me deal with electricity, which the hon. Member Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Wallace). She makes an important for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) mentioned in his point. One thing that I find curious about the Opposition’s speech. Diversity is very important here. About 18 GW proposals on planning is that they say that the Government of power supplies will go out of commission towards should set the planning statement and that the Secretary the end of this decade, while 20 GW are under construction of State should continue to exercise judgment about or have planning permission. It is interesting to note specific applications. I think it would be better for my that when E.ON made its decision to delay the Kingsnorth hon. Friend’s and the hon. Gentleman’s constituents if coal-fired power station, it cited the fact that there was those decisions were taken independently, so that the not the expected demand in the system. people who put forward the overall plans on gas storage were not also making the individual judgments. I maintain Because the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells has that the planning reforms that I have talked about are tried to make a cottage industry out of the issue of important. energy unserved, let me explain why I believe he is engaging in the alarmism that he said he was going to Let me say one more thing about gas. I think that the try to avoid and putting a wrong spin on the matter. The hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells has found that there Redpoint analysis, published at the time of the national are no easy answers to this issue. The difficulty is policy statements, updated the figures from the low-carbon finding a balance between the role of the market and transition plan. I will send the hon. Gentleman a copy if role of the state in ensuring security of supply. After he does not have one. It says that energy unserved, last year’s winter, we considered, along with Ofgem and which the hon. Gentleman made such an issue of, will the National Grid, whether the balance was right and be zero in 2017; it says that the capacity margin will be whether more needed to be done on how the market 15 per cent. in 2017 and will stay above 10 per cent. for worked. That led to two changes, the first of which was the rest of the decade. in the information that is available to the market to ensure that suppliers understand the short-term supply- What that illustrates is why the hon. Gentleman’s and-demand situation and the availability of gas from interpretation of the original graph is so alarmist. Demand storage. The second change was an increase in the and supply projections for seven or more years out are effective penalties on shippers who fail to deliver gas always going to be subject to significant change. They that they are contracted to provide. are not really a forecast of our security of supply position, but information for the market to respond to, We continue to consider whether more needs to be which it does. That is what we have found in the past. done on the operation of the market, and it is right that When I came into this job, people were saying that 2015 we do that. The hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells did would be a big problem; the hon. Gentleman is now not necessarily refer to this point, but it was probably saying that the problem will come in 2017, but I have implicit in his speech, and it is even more important given him updated projections today. I urge him to given that two thirds of the world’s gas suppliers are in engage seriously in the debate. Russia and the middle east. It is important to note that that is not the case for our gas suppliers; that is why our diversity is so important. It was because of our interest Greg Clark rose— in these issues that we asked my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks) to produce Edward Miliband: I shall give way in a moment. I his important report on international energy security, to believe—I shall say more about this after I have heard which we will respond before the general election. I the hon. Gentleman’s intervention—that the problem think that the most important conclusion from that that Britain faces in relation to energy is not so much report was about the strength that we get from the one of security of supply, but a different question. diversity of our energy sources. That is a strategy that he pursued very successfully as Minister for Energy. It has borne fruit and we continue to pursue it. As part of Greg Clark: The figure referred to the Government’s the road map to 2050 that we are preparing, we are central expectations, assuming that all the policies pursued considering whether more needs to be done. His report in the paper had been enacted—but may I ask the emphasised the importance of long-term contracts, which Secretary of State whether, when he made his statement are more common on the continent, as well as a variety to the House in July, he had read the table that included of other issues. the prediction of energy unserved at 3 GWh? It is also worth citing what my right hon. Friend said in his report about the notion of strategic storage, Edward Miliband: Yes, of course. I read all the which some people have put forward, effectively suggesting documents—well perhaps not all, but as many as possible that the Government should build their own storage: of the documents that my Department produces. 773 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 774

Greg Clark: I am grateful for that, so will the right exacerbated again last week when it was suggested that hon. Gentleman explain why, if he had read that document National Grid is considering doubling transmission before he made his statement, he failed to mention a charges from some islands. Will the right hon. Gentleman figure of such seismic importance—revealing that for tackle that problem once and for all and ensure a fair the first time since the 1970s, the Government were distribution system, so that such energy is on the grid expecting power cuts during the years ahead? and available?

Edward Miliband: Because, as I have just explained to Edward Miliband: That is a long-running issue, but it the hon. Gentleman, that figure is not of the seismic is worth pointing out politely to the hon. Gentleman importance that he claims. He obviously has his alarmist that, as a result of the system that he complains about rather than his consensual hat on at the moment. I have in relation to generation, his constituents—the consumers to tell him that alarming people about energy issues is who are nearer such generation—will have lower prices. not a mature way to conduct politics. He needs to I assure him of that. If we think that projects are not recognise that the analysis we produced in July as part going to go ahead because of the scale of the generation of the low-carbon transition plan has since been updated. charges, intervention is possible. He is welcome to contact us I have already said that I will send him a copy of the about that issue, which has been looked at in the past. update, as he has obviously not read it himself; I urge him to read all the documents that my Department Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con) rose— produces. This particular information can be found in figure 32, in a technical annex relating to a carbon Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South) (Lab) rose— capture and storage demonstration; it shows energy unserved not at the level mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, John Thurso: rose— but at zero in 2017. The hon. Gentleman needs to understand that taking one figure, pretending that it is Edward Miliband: I shall give way to the hon. Member somehow a prediction of power cuts, which it is not, for Stone (Mr. Cash), but then I shall try to wind up so and then asking why I did not mention it is not helpful. that Labour and Opposition colleagues can speak. I did not mention it because he has afforded it an importance way out of proportion to what it suggests. Mr. Cash: I have been very enthusiastic about the Diversity is very important to us and to our electricity Secretary of State’s comments on carbon capture and system, but what do we need to maintain our low-carbon the development that is essential in that area, but so diversity? Before the hon. Gentleman’s intervention, I far—I may be anticipating him—he has not said anything said that I would address that question. The real question about onshore wind farms. He knows that the Under- for Britain is: do we carry on with a high-carbon Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, the security of supply or do we move to a low-carbon hon. Member for (Mr. Kidney), who is sitting security of supply? That cannot be taken for granted, next to him on the Front Bench, and I have a boundary because it will be very challenging for any Government. issue regarding several onshore wind farms, and there is All the low-carbon sources that I think we need— deep opposition to them. Will the Secretary of State renewables, clean coal and nuclear—are challenging, therefore be good enough to explain why Severn Trent, and we need a combination of strategic Government for example, is encouraged to develop onshore wind and markets to make them happen. farms simply because it happens to own land—irrespective of either the amount of wind or the location of those On renewables, that is why we have reformed the projects? Will he get that policy right and stop promoting planning system, taken action on the grid, stepped in to those ridiculous onshore farms? work with the European Investment Bank to finance onshore wind, increased the offshore renewables obligation and announced—last week—the biggest offshore wind Edward Miliband: I am sure that on this issue, as on expansion programme of any country in the world. several others, the hon. Gentleman now speaks for his Front-Bench team as well as for himself. I do not agree The hon. Gentleman complained about our record with him about onshore wind, I am afraid. Onshore on renewables, and I wish that our country had done wind, along with offshore wind, needs to contribute to better on onshore wind. We have not done better, in our renewable future, and one risk that the Conservative part because of the planning system and people’s objections, party poses is precisely in the form of its attitude but it so happens that we are the world leader in towards onshore wind farms. I shall give way to my offshore wind. Throughout the world, offshore wind hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, South (Alan generates about 2 GW, and a bit less than half of that is Simpson) and then try to wind up my speech. in the UK. The exciting thing about my announcement last week—I pay tribute to the Crown Estate for its Alan Simpson: May I return to transmission access work on the matter—is that it mentioned another 32 GW charges? My right hon. Friend will be aware that the big of offshore wind generation—in a world where there is six energy companies by and large object to a change in only 2 GW.That is the scale of the ambition that we can the current system because they were given the distribution have for offshore wind in this country. infrastructure as a dowry when the energy industry was privatised. That is why, in turn, they support the principle Mr. Weir: I appreciate what the Secretary of State that everyone should pay for access. National Grid has says about offshore wind, which I also support, but I said that it is open to the argument for socialising the make the point that I made to the Conservative spokesman. cost of access, however, so will my right hon. Friend at Offshore wind energy often has to be brought on to the least consider the distribution of costs among the network grid from remote places, and there is a continuing as a whole, rather than an entry price that works against problem with transmission charges. The problem was a shift to new entrants? 775 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 776

Edward Miliband: My hon. Friend has great knowledge 5.29 pm of these and many other subjects, so anything that he asks us to look at will be looked at. Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) (LD): I welcome this debate, which is topical and John Thurso: With regard to offshore wind, may I appropriate. I also welcome the fact that it began in a draw to the Secretary of State’s attention the potential more consensual way than expected, given the comments problem of the supply chain, in particular at the Nigg by the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) yard? Given that there is one turbine per platform, in recent days and the bad weather in this country. The 100 platforms are required for a 500 MW installation, Secretary of State confirmed that we have experienced and the supply chain to deliver that number is not in the highest demand ever. That demand was met in the place. I have spoken to Lord Hunt about this, and he last week, as official reports confirm, from various has been very helpful, but I wish to draw it to the sources, with 45 per cent. of our electricity output attention of the Secretary of State. coming from coal, 37 per cent. from gas and 15 per cent. from nuclear, with a small proportion from wind. So Edward Miliband: The hon. Gentleman may consider Britain, thank goodness, has diversity of supply. it drawn to my attention now. One of the ways in which There has been a diminution recently in the amount we can get ahead in the offshore wind industry is with of our own oil and gas that we have been taking out of generation, which is a necessary, but not sufficient, the North sea, but as the Secretary of State said last condition for getting the industry in this country— night at the oil and gas industry reception, as the hon. Member for Aberdeen, South (Miss Begg) reminded us Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab) rose— and as colleagues from Scotland know all too well from their constituencies, we still have a fantastic natural Edward Miliband: I want to let hon. Members, including resource. We have used it, but it will continue for a my hon. Friend, speak in the debate, but I will give way significant number of years to come and we also have this time. further unexplored oil and gas resources, particularly west of Shetland and around the coast of Scotland. We Dr. Whitehead: Will my right hon. Friend briefly have been very blessed with our natural resources and reflect on the agreement that was signed by his Department that has given us a security that has seen us through in as one of nine member states to promote investigation recent years and in recent days, too. Energy security is of the European supergrid on offshore wind, and whether fundamentally important. In the parts of the world he considers that that might require some co-operation where it does not exist it is one of the greatest causes of with our European partners in order to succeed? political insecurity, conflict and worse—last winter, we saw in our continent the huge tension that arose between Edward Miliband: I agree with my hon. Friend. The Russia and Ukraine—and therefore it is very important European supergrid is an exciting prospect that will to obtain as much consensus as possible. obviously require co-operation in Europe—as well as sitting in the European Parliament with people who The second consensual point that I shall make, before tend to believe that climate change is real and happening, moving on to a comment about the motion that is a bit rather than those who do not. less consensual, is that we of course need more storage capacity—I do not think that there has ever been any In closing, I wish to emphasise the point about diversity. disagreement about that, and the Liberal Democrats We have acted on renewables. We are acting on clean are not complacent. My hon. Friends the Members for coal, including legislating for the clean coal levy—I Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and for Northavon (Steve hope that the Conservative party will start supporting Webb) made that point when they served on the Energy that. It sounds as though they are not only now supporting Bill Committee in 2008. Their recollection is that there it but saying that it should do more. That is a change in was a general consensus among all three major parties—I their position, but a welcome one. On nuclear, we have imagine the same could be said of the nationalist parties— published an important national policy statement. The about that. role of the Infrastructure Planning Commission is also important. However, although we need more storage capacity, There is still an issue about the carbon price, partly as the important point is that there is no crisis—there is result of Copenhagen. We continue to think that the not the sort of crisis that the Conservative party would best way to raise the carbon price is through the EU have us believe. Thus, I regret, as we all should, the tone fulfilling its commitments to go from 20 to 30 per cent. and nature of some of the comments made by the hon. Last week I said that we should look at how Britain can Member for Tunbridge Wells over the past 10 days. most economically meet its low carbon obligations and whether further action will be necessary, and that is the Mr. Ellwood: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? point of our road map to 2050. To have a successful energy policy we need diversity Simon Hughes: I shall in a second. The Conservative and energy efficiency, which is an important part of party went out into the public domain—into the television ensuring that we minimise the demands on the system, and radio studios, and into the national press—and as well as understanding the role of government. Strategic positively alarmed people with false statistics and fictitious government is important alongside the role of the market. claims. That is irresponsible for a party that aspires to As we pursue this debate, we should do so on the basis be in government. The right thing to do is to try to be of facts and robust analysis, without engaging in alarmism accurate about the position and not say things that are of the British people. That does not give politics a good immediately contradicted, as these were. I am about to name, or enlighten the public debate. That is why we provide the source that backs up that point. This is not will vote against the Opposition motion tonight. about my saying so; it is about other people saying so. 777 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 778

The claims were contradicted by those in the industry Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) of producing who know what they are talking about and who deal false statistics. That seems to be contrary to the rules of with these issues every day. the House, and I ask you to ask him to withdraw the accusation. Greg Clark: The hon. Gentleman makes a serious allegation when he suggests that these were false statistics. Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): An allegation That is clearly not the case. The statistics that we issued relating to whether information is correct or not is a were taken straight from the National Grid Company, matter of debate, and there should be an opportunity in and they show what we said clearly—I have the press the debate to correct it. As I am on my feet, I should like release here—which is that to say that time is precious and the House will want the “At today’s level of gas demand, our storage level equates debate to be fully comprehensive. The Front Benchers to…8.1 days.” have taken up a considerable chunk of time with the It pointed out the actual demand on each day and the speeches that we have already heard. I shall therefore amount of storage. That is a factual statement and I maintain the eight-minute time limit on Back-Bench hope that he will accept it. speeches for the first two speeches—one from either side—then I shall reduce it to five minutes. Simon Hughes: Of course I accept that, but if one deduces from that or if it is implied—or if one allows Simon Hughes: Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker. My others to infer from it—that that is the amount of gas speech will be considerably shorter than those of the we have available and therefore when we use that up two Front Benchers who have spoken. there is no more, on its own it is a statement that one The idea that all our sources of supply could fail at must qualify and add to. [Interruption.] No, the hon. the same time is just unfeasible. We need to ensure Gentleman knows perfectly well what the background that the public understand that the position that was and context is. First, this country has far more of its either alluded to or, certainly, interpreted by the own resources than the countries with which he compared Conservatives recently is clearly wrong. I want to cite it—I can show him the figures if he does not believe me. certain objective commentators who can confirm that, Mr. Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con): so that the House will know that I am not making party Will the hon. Gentleman give way? political comments. is not a natural supporter of the Labour party or the Liberal Democrats, Simon Hughes: In a second, but let me just deal with yet, on 11 January, it stated: this important point. This debate is taking place partly “To be clear, it is highly unlikely that we will run out of gas: we because the Conservative party wanted to have it be are not facing the prospects of old ladies freezing in their homes known that this country was in a critical position—the as large swathes of residential customers have their supplies cut Conservatives are attacking not the Liberal Democrats, off.” but the Government on that. My job is not to defend Of course, we have become a net importer of gas, and the Government; it is to try to ensure that people who we will import more. were bound to have been alarmed and, unsurprisingly, Most importantly, on 6 January, National Grid’s have been are at least reassured that there is the security spokesman made an immediate response to the comments of supply that they need to know will see us through by the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells earlier in the this winter and into the months beyond. The figures on week, stating: the percentage of natural gas supply imported by “We are absolutely not going to run out of gas…The UK is comparable countries are as follows: Austria 82; France 98; well supplied.” Belgium 100; Germany 83; Italy 90; Spain 100; Czech National Grid dismissed the hon. Gentleman’s figure of Republic 98; and Ireland 91. What is the figure for the eight days as a “meaningless number”, because it ignored UK? It is 26 per cent. The reality is that we are in an the amount of gas being imported and the fact that entirely different league. nearly half of UK demand is met by North sea production. The hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells knows that we National Grid has given further commentary in the have had the Rough storage facility for a long time, and press in the last few days, citing the official figures that it would take 64 days to empty it. That is not my published at the end of last year in the latest edition of figure but the one provided by National Grid. The its review “Transporting Britain’s Energy”. They show facility does not, in any event, have the capacity to that the potential supply from UK power stations is deliver a sufficient amount to empty it in eight days, but 28 per cent. above demand, and the review forecasts we do not need to draw on it fully anyway, because we that this excess will continue through to 2016 and are continuing to produce and distribute a huge amount beyond. of supply from our own resources. I join the Secretary I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that we of State in paying tribute to the people working for have an adequate supply now and for the foreseeable National Grid and out there in the North sea and future. There is no likelihood of it running out, and the elsewhere. only ones who have suffered are those companies who In the past 10 years, the market, supported by had negotiated an interruptible supply contract, which the Government, has delivered on-stream the interconnector rewarded them with a lower price. They knew that their with Norway, which brings huge supplies. Norway has supply would be reduced for a limited period if demand fantastic capacity—the largest by a mile of any country was creating pressure. That is what happened, and it in Europe. We also have the interconnector with Holland, seems to be entirely commercially proper. They knew which acts as a sort of collector for other supply. exactly what would happen in those circumstances. Mr. Gummer: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Greg Clark: The hon. Gentleman has quoted various Speaker. I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s people, but he has not been able to produce a single explanation, but he has accused my hon. Friend the quotation proving that I implied or stated that the gas 779 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 780

[Greg Clark] The Liberal Democrats do not believe that we need the nuclear option as part of the energy security mix. supply of any residential customer was likely to be cut That is a known position, although obviously there are off. I mentioned the Engineering Employers Federation, differences of view in our party as in others. Our belief which said that the supplies of some of its members had is based not least on evidence that in other countries been cut off. He should bear in mind what was said nuclear is normally, if not always, delivered late and about the situation by his colleague the hon. Member very expensively, and that the same would be the case if for Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming). He said: it were developed again in this country. I have to say “It is like driving blindfold on a cliff. You might go over the that I still do not understand the Conservatives’ position edge”. on the nuclear industry. It appears to be supportive Does that not reflect the concern that we feel, and about when we listen to some Conservative Front Benchers, which I still maintain that the hon. Gentleman is still but entirely opposed when we listen to their environmental rather complacent? and energy advisers. No doubt the Conservatives’ position would be equally complicated if they were to gain any Simon Hughes: I have spoken to my hon. Friend and I form of majority after the next election. disagree with his analysis. That is not the official position We are certain that microgeneration will also add to of our party, just as there are members of the hon. our capacity. It is small at the moment, but there is a Gentleman’s party who do not always adopt his official consensus that it has huge potential. I believe that if the position—not least on issues connected with climate Government had an appropriate feed-in tariff they could change and the Copenhagen conference, which we debated encourage microgeneration, and we hope that that will recently. happen. I am afraid that, intentionally or unintentionally, The other side of the equation is that the energy those comments were alarmist, and I know from security issue would have been much better addressed information I have been given that they have resulted in had the Government succeeded in the area in which I some customers of gas suppliers turning their gas down believe they have failed most. They have not helped or off for fear that they will not have a supply in the people to reduce their demand and need for energy. The future. That is not the message that we should send to fact is that 99 per cent. of homes are not properly the vulnerable and poor, who are most at risk in weather insulated to independently established standards. Despite such as this. all the protestations, we do not yet have a comprehensive Of course we know that certain of our plants will be scheme for warm homes in our country. We know what decommissioned. Of course we need more storage, but a great difference proper insulation would make, yet the much has already come on-stream and much is in the Government have failed abysmally on a measure that planning process. We need to ensure that that planned my party has been arguing for 25 years is the most storage capacity can be turned into reality around the important way in which we can become more energy country. The new access to liquid petroleum gas in efficient, because reductions in demand and consumption Milford Haven and the Isle of Grain, which, to be fair, have as great a part to play as anything else. Gearóid the Secretary of State mentioned, has given us a whole Lane is managing director of British Gas communities new opportunity, and that trend is likely to continue. and new energy, and the following quotation is taken from an article he wrote for this month’s Parliamentary Brief: Mr. Crabb: I think the hon. Gentleman means liquefied “We have just completed what we believe to be the largest ever natural gas. Can he explain why, at the 2005 general piece of customer energy consumption research, analysing 64 million election, his party opposed the LNG developments in meter readings between 2006 and 2008 and correlating consumption savings with actions customers have taken to improve the energy Milford Haven, and can he tell us where the extra 10 per efficiency of their homes. For example, after separating out the cent. of gas supply going into the grid today from those impact of price and weather, our data shows a reduction in gas two terminals would be if the Liberal Democrats were consumption of 18 per cent. for the customers every year for running energy policy? whom we install insulation, and a 21 per cent. fall in gas consumption for the 100,000 customers every year for whom we install a new Simon Hughes: I can give the hon. Gentleman—my boiler.” friend—an honest answer to his first question. No, I The real prize in energy efficiency—and thus in reduction cannot explain that, and I am not going to try. It seems in consumption—will be won if all our homes, schools, to me that, in retrospect if not in advance, it was clearly hospitals and industrial and commercial buildings are a good idea. I have certainly never opposed it, and nor properly insulated and we did not waste so much of the have my colleagues on the Front Bench. energy that we consume. That is where the Government We live in a changing energy world involving different have failed most, because we still have a very partial, sorts of imports and different sorts of access to imports, piecemeal and inadequate programme for achieving and—again, the Government have understood this—new those goals. sources are likely to come on-stream. Last Friday’s Obviously, we are always going to be interdependent announcement by the Government about offshore wind with other countries around us and throughout the rest was extremely welcome, and, as has been pointed out by of the world. Our energy security is dependent on what my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland happens in the rest of the world, and, sadly, there have and Easter Ross (John Thurso), we have a fantastic been some disastrous actions in recent years. The invasion opportunity to achieve world leadership in tidal power of Iraq has been harmful in this regard, as it had a in the Pentland Firth. If that opportunity were developed knock-on effect on energy supplies; oil production in to the full, this country could have the capacity for the Iraq is now up, but not up to pre-war levels. There is most resource from tidal power anywhere in the world, also a lack of support, certainly from the Conservative not just for our own use but also for export purposes. party, for a European energy policy co-ordinated in 781 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 782 such a way as to bring us all together. From what I have the future west of Shetland, and so on. Nevertheless, heard from the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells, his our gas and oil from the North sea are in decline by party’s ideas are entirely inappropriate to meet the some 6 or 8 per cent. a year. That is a fact of life, challenges of the next decades. The Liberal Democrats although we must do our best to push the line in the believe we need not only to be firm in dealing with right direction. Meanwhile, our nuclear energy capacity emissions and climate change, because we must have a has declined from 30 per cent. at its peak to about zero-emissions policy and a carbon neutral, or zero-carbon, 15 per cent. today. We know the story of coal and the future, but to have an integrated European future. If we missed opportunity there in an earlier generation. Our are really going to achieve energy security, we not only renewables are contributing more and more each year have to produce as much of our own energy as possible, but still a very small percentage. but we have to be enthusiastic leaders in the campaign We must be as smart as we can in our foreign policy for a European supergrid so that the energy produced on energy so that we are in the game of diversity, as the throughout Europe—whether from solar power in the Secretary of State says. We must not be over-dependent Mediterranean, hydroelectric power in Norway, tidal on any one fuel. We must avoid the dangers of a new power in Scotland, or renewables throughout our dash for gas, which seriously concerns me. We should country—can be shared to give us all collective security. not source too much of our energy from any one The UK should aim to be more energy independent, company, region or country. We should build up our but the best security for all of us is for the whole of links with countries that are important to us, such as Europe to become energy self-sufficient. That is what Qatar and in particular Norway. With the right approach, will give us the security we need. If the Conservative we could secure more gas from Norway. party were a bit more enthusiastic about Europe in this context, that might give consumers and industry a little We need diversity, and we need to ensure that in more hope of the prospect of a secure future if—although future, despite the trend towards import dependency, I do not think this will happen—it were to form the we secure as much of our energy indigenously, from Government in the near future. within the British isles and our seas, as possible. That is a recipe for the Secretary of State’s policy on renewables. 5.48 pm The development towards 15 per cent. of our energy Malcolm Wicks (Croydon, North) (Lab): coming from renewables by 2020 is as much about Understandably, the context for much of this debate energy security as it is about climate change. The two go has been the appalling conditions facing our country together. this winter, and we should remember the elderly at risk There is a role for coal. To ignore coal would be a from the cold. We often talk about global warming, but national security disaster—hence colleagues talk perfectly many of our elderly would say that the chance of properly about the importance of carbon capture and warmth would be a fine thing in their living rooms and storage. Nuclear must play a key role. It is important for bedrooms this winter. That is an urgent social issue. climate change and for the nation’s security. In my However, I want to begin my remarks by talking about report to the Prime Minister, to which the Secretary of energy security in the longer term and by dealing with State kindly referred, I go as far as to say that if by the matter in a global context. 2030 some 35 to 40 per cent. of our electricity was When the world comes out of economic recession, coming from nuclear, that would be sensible for the the global demand for energy will resume its previous nation’s security as well as for global warming. There is trajectory and, depending on our success in respect of far more that we can do to reduce energy demand, not climate change, the International Energy Agency estimates just in housing but across the industrial process and in that global energy demand could increase between 20 and transport. 40 per cent. by 2030. In the final few minutes available to me, I shall turn History is playing a trick on the British isles. At this from that macro perspective to a much more specific time of globally increased demand for energy from the perspective on gas. As I said, I fear that there could be a great emerging nations of India, China and the rest, we new dash for gas, partly because gas power stations are are moving to a position of much greater import far easier to build than nuclear and some other kinds of dependency. For our country that represents not just a power stations. That needs to be avoided. Gas is an challenge in relation to energy supply, but a challenge important part of the mix, but it should not be over- that has implications for our foreign policy. When we dominant. There are issues about gas supply in the UK talk about energy security, what do we mean? We should that I set out in my report to the Secretary of State and mean not just the important issue of where we get the the Prime Minister, which I know the Government are stuff from. We should talk about our need for energy taking seriously and to which they will respond in due security with imports, which does not jeopardise our course. I do not expect a response today. capacity to have an independent foreign policy that One such issue is that, compared with many of our takes account of human rights and democracy, including continental partners, we have a relative lack of long-term in the countries that will be supplying much of our contracts for gas. Companies tend to buy short-term, or energy. sometimes “spot”. Is that a problem? When we say that When as Prime Minister said that energy companies have a supply obligation, what does that policy and energy security in the 21st century could really mean? In the course of the inquiry for my report, become as important to a nation’s defence and security I found that the supply obligation is a bit like jelly—difficult as conventional armed forces, he was at least raising an to get to grips with. My understanding, and that of important hypothesis for us to discuss. those who advised me, is that in our present system During the debate we have considered some of the there is no way for National Grid or the regulator to trends affecting our country. Yes, there is a great deal of establish whether, in aggregate, there is likely to be resource still in the North sea—much to be explored in sufficient availability of gas during any one year or any 783 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 784

[Malcolm Wicks] more support for low-carbon generation than to put all our eggs in the basket of renewables. I say that not one winter. That does not mean that the gas will not be because I want fewer renewables but because we have to there, because companies might buy “spot”or short-term, get there quickly. I would like to see a greater emphasis but it is not a very secure position. Having been Minister on outcomes than on process. For example, people in for Energy and having had to take my share of responsibility the British wind energy industry often argue on the for these things, I found myself rather less confident basis of how wonderful wind is. I want to have the about some of this than the Liberal Democrat lowest carbon production of energy that we can have—I spokesman—that is a bit strange, is it not? When I did do not mind how we do it. Tomorrow the mix will be my report, that raised in my mind some serious issues different from what it is today, but let us ensure that we about what we mean by the supply obligation. The do not miss the important issue, which is how we get the regulator is looking into that, as is the Secretary of energy we need. State, but we need to consider it carefully. That leads me to say that I am terribly disappointed My final point is about gas storage, which is a more with the Liberal Democrats, but I suppose I should complex issue than those on the Opposition Front expect that. It is no good their sitting there saying, “We Bench—perhaps both Front Benches—fully understand. are against nuclear power”, when in fact it is an essential The Secretary of State said that there are arguments part of any delivery. In my constituency we are very against strategic storage, and I understand that; but keen on having it, but I say to the Secretary of State that there are arguments for it, as well. It is a question of he is wrong about the planning arrangements. He is balance. If we simply go in for commercial storage, we right about the first bit, which we all agree on—making must recognise that much of it is owned by German the national decision about safety and need—but it is companies and in certain winters some of it, from essential that there be a small local inquiry by somebody places such as Rough, flows towards the continent. who is not one of his people but an independent person How do we secure in extremis—in emergency conditions— who can listen to the local issues. the stored gas that can be used first and foremost for That is not going to happen. We are to have another British business and British homes? lot of apparatchiks under another lot of quangoists, who will come around looking at us sniffily. Dame Deirdre Hutton will be around again, telling everybody 5.56 pm what to do. My constituents want an opportunity to say Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): I refer in public what they want in relation to the dualling of the House to my declaration of interest. the bypass and the other issues that affect them. They want to know that they will be listened to by an independent I very much take on board the Secretary of State’s person who then advises the Government, not by some remark that we want the facts and a robust analysis. Government-appointed apparatchik. That is why I start by repeating what I said earlier—that I congratulate him on changing the way we look at these We must also reduce demand. I am a great enthusiast things compared with the 10 years that preceded the for a lot of the things that the Secretary of State is last White Paper. The trouble was that we were working doing, but many of the details are not right yet. I was on the basis of a White Paper without any figures—nearly appalled to discover that the carbon commitment all the dates and targets had been removed, with only arrangements will exclude very large numbers of very the 50-year one left. We therefore had a situation in big users because of the peculiar decision that if they do which nobody could have their feet held to the fire not have a half-hour meter arrangement, it does not because nobody had a target that was serious and could matter how much they produce. That means that a large be kept to. I honour the right hon. Gentleman very chain of small shops could use exactly the same total much—this may be embarrassing for him—because he amount of energy as a smaller chain with larger shops, has changed the whole atmosphere and we can now but one will pay and the other will not. The effect will be have a proper debate about energy in a way that was not serious, and it is a stupid thing to have happened. I am possible for a long period. He is suffering for that, and sure that he had nothing to do with it, but I merely say so are the rest of us. to him that it can be changed rapidly. Although charming, the explanation that I received is not really very effective. Starting on a personal level, I recently had a problem I hope that the Secretary of State will accept that in my constituency that arose because somebody on the those of us who have largely supported his activities will Army base did not fill a tank, which meant that a lot of have to be, to use his word, robust in sometimes saying my constituents did not have any gas. That was nothing to him, “This is just not right.” If we are going to win to do with a national problem or any of the arguments this battle, we all have to be prepared to speak out and that we have heard today, but simply a local problem. speak clearly. That leads to the fundamental question of When we talk about energy security, let us realise that how we can reduce our use of energy and produce it there are some local issues, as well as national ones, and efficiently so that our national security position is improved. that they are very serious for people. That requires a much faster move towards smart metering How do we organise ourselves so that there is the and smart grids. He has done us a great favour by diversity that we need, not only in terms of supply but getting on with it, but we need to get on with it very as between the various forms of generation? I worry much faster. There are various ways to do that, and I that we have had too much emphasis on process and far hope he will be open to some dramatically different too little on outcomes. I am a great believer in renewable suggestions as to how to achieve that aim. We also have energy; I do not think anybody could criticise me on to do more to ensure that when we have opportunities that score. Ultimately, however, we should be aiming to to reduce our energy use, we take them. I am not sure have the most cost-effective way of getting energy security that we are doing that fast enough, and I want to press and lowering our emissions. It may be better to provide the urgency of the matter on him. 785 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 786

I wish to say something to my Front-Bench colleagues. Mr. Morley: It is acceptable if gas supplies are We will not achieve what we need to unless we use every maintained. In fact, the hon. Gentleman’s colleague, the single possible weapon. There is a way of increasing our hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey efficiency in Europe that will make a very big difference gave a good, detailed analysis of the capacity and if we are only prepared to work with our colleagues in reserves, which I encourage the hon. Member for the European Union. We have to be tough about that, Birmingham, Yardley (John Hemming) to look at. That because we really must use the EU as effectively as demonstrates that diversifying our supply and moving possible to deliver that end. towards a low-carbon supply is good not only in relation I say to the Government that they should move faster to climate change but in addressing the potential problems and accept that they are behindhand because of what of security of supply, fuel poverty, jobs and investment. has happened so far. I say to members of my own party Moving towards a low-carbon economy has a range of that we have to use every mechanism possible. I say to advantages. the Liberal Democrats that it is not acceptable to go on On fuel poverty, which is related to energy supply in with a theological position that is intolerable, intolerant the current circumstances, I welcome what has been and unacceptable—but they are, after all, Liberal done on insulating people’s homes through the Warm Democrats, so we expect that from them. They will pay Front programme. Energy efficiency is one of the cheapest a big price for it at the next election, when people realise and most effective ways of reducing energy demand and that the real opponents of combating climate change helping to meet social demand, and it improves the are Liberal Democrats. availability of supply. However, we need to do an awful lot more in the private rented sector on creating mechanisms 6.4 pm to improve insulation. Incidentally, I welcome the improvement in cold weather Mr. Elliot Morley (Scunthorpe) (Lab): It is a pleasure payments: my constituency will be receiving two weeks’ to follow the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal payments. I know that this is not the responsibility of (Mr. Gummer), and I welcome this debate on energy my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Energy security. However, I was surprised about the alarmist and Climate Change, but there are some eligibility headlines about eight days’ supply. The hon. Member anomalies, because some people on disability living for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark) generally makes a allowance do not receive the payments. Those anomalies reasoned and well balanced contribution to such debates need to be addressed in discussions with other Departments. and there are real issues to address, but I agree with the hon. Member for North Southwark and Bermondsey We need to encourage more renewables. I welcome (Simon Hughes) that alarming industry and domestic what has been done, including the recent announcement consumers does not help—I realise that the hon. Member of the enormous expansion of offshore. That is of for Tunbridge Wells did not mention domestic consumers, particular local interest in my constituency. The Humber but people often do not read beyond the headlines, and is very well placed to be a centre for the construction his statement was unjustified. and maintenance of offshore wind farms, and for CCS and biomass development. Jobs in engineering and That is not to say that we should not address storage support go with those things, not least in the construction and supply to local industries. I had a case in my of the steel that will go into the towers that will be built. constituency of a company on an interruptible supply Those developments will mean jobs and investment, having its gas cut off, but that happened not because of much to the benefit of local people. a shortage of gas but because of pressure problems, I want to make one last, quick point. We need to which were related to cold, distribution and encourage as great a diversity of supply as possible. infrastructure—there were a number of reasons, and Micropower has enormous potential, which has not yet they may well need to be addressed. When it comes to been realised. I very much welcome what the Government choosing which companies have their supplies cut off, have done on feed-in tariffs; it is exactly the right way there are problems with advance notice. In addition, forward. However, what is being proposed is not enough some companies have an alternative source, but some to kick-start the sector. It would be a lot better if the do not, and there is a problem with how long each is cut measures could be front-loaded to a higher feed-in off. There should be a fair rotation because of the tariff, which could then be tapered off, to give some impact on certain companies compared with their rivals. incentive to get the industry going. Other measures I want to put on record the fact that I received enormous could be introduced, such as extending the boiler scrappage support and advice from the Secretary of State, who scheme, which I also welcome, to combined heat and demonstrated his knowledge of the issues when I raised power boilers; I know that we are at the beginning of them with him. I am glad to say that the supply was their commercialisation. reinstated, protecting 300 jobs locally and 1,500 nationally. We need to use every tool and every incentive available, There are issues to address but, generally speaking, because we have to move to a low-carbon economy as bearing in mind that we are in the coldest period that we quickly as possible. All political parties have a responsibility have had for 30 years, supplies of electricity and gas to get that message over to the public. The changes have have been pretty good, and I add my support to those to be made. We must have the planning procedure that who will ensure that that continues through the winter brings them forward and we have to get behind the months. investment incentives, to make sure that it all happens. John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): On today’s figures, National Grid estimates that for a one in 20 winter, 6.11 pm 502 million cubic metres of gas a day will be needed, Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): I am but today it could produce only 447 cubic metres. Is that pleased to follow the right hon. Member for Scunthorpe acceptable? (Mr. Morley), who speaks with great authority on these 787 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 788

[Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory] that has been with us for more than 50 years. We could have been a world beater. There is a missed opportunity matters. I want to step back from the problems caused there, which we must hasten to correct. The problem of by the cold weather snap and try to examine some of storage must be addressed, but this solution could the more strategic issues. overcome the problem of security. Uranium supplies Energy security is inescapably a duty of Governments, are virtually inexhaustible, and we have large storage and this Government have let matters drift. We have facilities for plutonium and enriched uranium in this heard in this debate about the decline in oil and gas country. reserves in British waters, the retirement of coal-burning My last request is for the Government to participate stations because of emissions controls, and the predicted in the next generation—the generation 4—nuclear power decommissioning of nuclear stations. station programme worldwide, so that once more we What is even more worrying is what is coming at us in can export not just energy but nuclear technology. the opposite direction because of tightening world markets and global trends, one of which is the simple fact of 6.16 pm population increase. The population of the world is still Alan Simpson (Nottingham, South) (Lab): It is extremely going up by nearly 1 million every five days. If these unfortunate that the claim about there being eight days people are to have any kind of standard of living, they of gas supply left will fall into the same category as are going to use increasing quantities of energy; during people being 45 minutes from extinction by Saddam’s the next 50 years, the human race will probably consume nuclear weapons. I say “unfortunate” because there is a more energy than it has used in the entire course of crisis in energy security that has to be addressed. However, human history to date. it needs to be addressed over the next eight years, not There are also political developments, with countries the next eight days. The 2008 House of Lords report on such as China seeking to secure their energy supply energy security is a benchmark to which we all ought to chain in a new scramble for Africa. Countries such as refer, because between 2012 and 2017 energy capacity Russia and Venezuela are explicitly using their energy margins in the UK will fall below the 20 per cent. reserves as a foreign policy weapon. All that adds up to security margin to which we have become accustomed. an extremely worrying global situation, just as the We need to have a debate, and it needs to take place Government have completely taken their eye off our now, but it should be about what we do over the coming domestic needs. There is also our economic vulnerability; eight years. we are already running a very big balance of payments There are two types of security crisis. The first is a deficit in energy. That will get worse. We have had a crisis driven by the supply levels and the second is a currency devaluation, which has made us all poorer in crisis of security. It is important to recognise that the world terms. That will not cure the problem of the affordability issue in connection with energy security is financial deficit in energy unless the Government take sadly epitomised by the deaths of Jean and Derek action. Randall, who froze to death in their own bungalow last I thought that my hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge week. They are just two examples from among the Wells (Greg Clark) was rather too kind about the 5 million households in Britain living in fuel poverty, for Government’s record. We will all remember—or should whom energy security is a day by day, week by week, do—the energy White Paper of 2003. In my view, it was winter by winter crisis that they have to get through. one of the most irresponsible documents ever issued by Those households are the most severely affected by the a modern Government. It effectively shut off nuclear fact that household average energy bills have risen to power development completely. Sadly, the right hon. £1,225 a year—more than double what they were in Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt) is not attending 2003, and a 33 per cent. increase from what they were at this debate. She might be an extremely incompetent the beginning of 2008. There is an ongoing crisis in plotter against the Prime Minister, but she was a great energy affordability that households across the UK deal worse as Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. have to face. Not only did she issue that dreadful White Paper, but The Select Committee on Environment, Food and she sold Westinghouse, the last of the British hopes for Rural Affairs assessed what it would cost us if, as a nuclear power generation. country, we were to commit ourselves to eradicating The consequences of that White Paper have been to fuel poverty in housing by 2016 or 2017. The estimate reduce us from being a possible world leader to the was that it would involve an extra cost of about £3 billion status of sub-contractor. That is extremely serious at a a year. If we were to do that, 83 per cent. of the time when even the Government are trying to restart households in Britain would be taken out of fuel poverty our nuclear programme. All that was known at the time by that time. In energy security terms, one of the most about our decommissioning of nuclear reactors and the critical results would be a reduction of household domestic decline in gas and oil reserves, but instead of a concerted energy consumption by 56 per cent. The first of the programme, there has been an absurd over-reliance on measures that we can take that will dramatically change renewables. both quality of life and energy security is related to I am not “anti” all renewables, and I have an interest demand reduction. to declare in a possible hydro scheme, but as for wind The second issue that the Government need to address power, I noticed that the big windmill on the M4 near concerns the shift into renewables. I know that the Reading that sometimes goes round was stationary Secretary of State has been putting up a heroic battle during the recent cold snap. It is not only unwise but over the feed-in tariff framework that he is about to dangerous to suppose that renewables can make up the announce at the end of this month or the beginning of gap. That can be done only by nuclear power, which is next month. I have to say that my understanding is that virtually carbon-free in operation and is a mature technology he is not winning that battle. 789 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 790

Colin Challen (Morley and Rothwell) (Lab): My hon. hugely significant development, and it comes as no Friend will have read the press comment that the expansion surprise that it was opened by Her Majesty the Queen of our offshore wind generation will create a lot of and his excellency the Emir of Qatar earlier this year. foreign jobs for well-established companies. Does he We have to put this debate into context. We are going agree that if we have a higher feed-in tariff than is through the worst winter in decades, and in the past few currently proposed, we will create a critical mass in our days, leaving aside the debate about storage, there have own small and medium-sized enterprise sector, which been shortages. As the Secretary of State said, there can get into the market on a smaller scale? have been problems with the Troll field, and demand Alan Simpson: That is absolutely right, provided that has soared at the same time. The fact that the lights are we set sufficiently ambitious tariffs, which I think need still on is due to the investment in LNG, not just at to include a three-year period and a 10 per cent. internal Milford Haven, but with the British Gas terminal on rate of return. That will give us the sort of renewables the Isle of Grain. That is why things are still going industry that the UK does not have at the moment. ahead. Those two terminals are now supplying 10 per Those who say that a cost will have to be paid should cent. of the UK’s gas. Without that storage and capacity, look at the Deutsche Bank report that analysed the the lights would be off, we would be on a three-day effect of that approach in Germany and pointed out the week and the Labour party would be at 20 per cent. in merit-order effect—avoided energy consumption from the opinion polls. the most expensive fossil fuels has resulted in savings to The Secretary of State said that the Government had the German Government of ¤9.4 billion. They achieved been proactive in that development. Of course they that simply by setting themselves that level of ambition. have. They have been good about it. However, the initial If we stick with our current low ambitions, we will fail decision was a financial one made about seven or eight miserably to take the opportunity that, as my hon. years ago. Investors did not do that just because they Friend the Member for Morley and Rothwell (Colin were concerned about the UK’s energy position; they Challen) rightly points out, is there for the taking. It did it because they wanted to make money. The price would deliver job security as well as energy security. signals at the time looked good, but now they do not We also need to engage with a revolution in our look so attractive. That is why the Opposition motion’s energy thinking. I urge all Members to look at what call for a new framework to attract the necessary investment might come to be referred to as the LichtBlick revolution. is so necessary. I am astonished that the Government do At the end of the month, a collaboration between not accept that part of the motion in their amendment. Volkswagen and the LichtBlick company will propose a shift in energy systems thinking, to be piloted in Germany. We have to look at this debate in a global context, Instead of building a power station, they are considering and in that respect there are four statistics that are very 2 GW of energy generation, which could cover the relevant indeed. The first is that oil and gas will remain whole city of Hamburg. That will be based on the the primary source of energy and that, together with installation of 100,000 combined heat and power units coal, they will supply 85 per cent. of global energy in homes, factories, schools and health centres, all of needs in 2030. Secondly, by 2020, energy consumption which are not only domestically and individually controlled, by the developing world will overtake consumption by but centrally co-ordinated. As energy for the city is the industrialised world. Thirdly, natural gas is the required, instruction levels can be raised, allowing 2 GW fastest growing primary energy source. Fourthly—this of energy to be delivered collectively from people’s own is a statistic on which I differ from my constituency homes. neighbour, the right hon. Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks)—global growth in electricity demand Mr. Gummer: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that will grow by 55 per cent. by 2030, which raises the the proposed system of feed-in tariffs is absolutely question whether low-carbon policies can match that unsuited to such an arrangement? We need a revolution growth. in how the feed-in tariffs work, but it should not just come from the bottom layer; we need to raise the level The key issue to arise from all that is that in the years and involve large factories as well. to come, there will be a seller’s market. There will be greater competition for equipment and skills, which will Alan Simpson: Absolutely. It is absurd that we in the cause serious problems for electricity producers. The UK are restricted toa5MWthreshold, when we should key questions for policy makers are these. Will the have a 10 MW threshold—or no ceiling at all, as is the investment meet the growth in demand? Is nuclear case in the rest of Europe. We need to consider how our power part of the answer? There is a consensus that the towns, cities and regions can deliver their collective answer to that is yes. Should we bet the house on energy security on a level that meets their needs and in a renewables? Probably. Will the grid cope? Perhaps. Who way that is collectively owned and accountable. If we will pay for that? A lot of uncertainty is caused by those can grasp that vision, we can deliver the energy security factors, and that influences the debate. that the country needs. That will not come from a reliance on energy tyrannies or fiefdoms elsewhere; it On infrastructure, there remains the issue raised by will come from an ability to meet those needs from our the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir), the spokesman own resources. However, all that needs to be driven by a for the , about the grid connections. different vision, and one on a bolder scale, than is We need financial incentives. Planning is now resolved, currently on offer in any of our policies. but where are the policies on tariff structures, renewable credits, CO2 pricing, construction capacity, and fuel 6.23 pm and site availability? All that produces a huge amount Richard Ottaway (Croydon, South) (Con): I declare of uncertainty, which explains why so little new generating an interest as an adviser to the South Hook LNG capacity has been produced over the past five years. terminal, which has featured in this debate today. It is a There is now just 6.8 GW of capacity under construction, 791 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 792

[Richard Ottaway] To address the twin challenges of energy security and climate change, the UK must implement various measures. 5 GW of which will come from gas. We have planned, in Energy must be used more efficiently and we should the pipeline between now and 2016, consent to build have a diverse supply of low and zero-carbon energy 11 GW of capacity, of which 8 GW will come from gas. sources. It is reported that International Energy Agency With 15 GW of generating capacity dropping out in analysis suggests that serious action on climate change 2015, I would say that we need all that capacity. There requires a will be a large dip in capacity, so my advice to whoever “complete transformation of the energy sector…in all countries”. forms the next Government would be to ensure that It is important that we should act as part of a united creating that extra capacity becomes their No. 1 policy Europe. It is in the interests of all major consumers to priority. There is a huge amount going on, but if the have a predictable and rules-based approach to managing market does not respond, the Government will have energy security and climate change. It is only through to become far more interventionist than they have been co-ordinated action with our European neighbours that so far. we can achieve that. For example, Russia is dependant 6.28 pm on Europe as a consumer market, with 80 per cent. of its oil exports and 60 per cent. of its gas exports coming Mr. Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op): The world into the EU. It is essential that Europe acts collectively is facing a resource crisis. The global population is to maximise that consumer influence. Similarly, Europe expected to increase to 9 billion by 2050. Not only is the will have the weight to negotiate with China, India, world increasing in population; it is becoming richer. As Japan and the USA only if it is a united Europe. Indeed, nations such as India and China enjoy economic growth, we recently saw action of that kind at Copenhagen. their citizens want and can afford to consume like we do. In China, for instance, the number of cars will Energy has been at the heart of the European Union increase from 4 million in 2000 to 130 million by 2020. since its conception, and it remains there today. In 2007, However, as demand increases our resources are becoming EU leaders recognised the twin challenges of climate even scarcer. Oil and gas supplies are becoming more change and energy security, and agreed to some laudable costly to extract. The price of oil might have dropped goals on energy usage, renewable energy and reducing from the eye-watering peaks of 2008, but it has risen emissions. Europe also co-operates on investments, again quickly, to approximately $80 a barrel today. technology transfer, mutual access to markets and predictability in commercial relations, particularly with The European Union’s dependence on foreign fuel is countries such as Russia and others in northern Africa, also rising. Europe is now the world’s biggest importer the Gulf region and central Asia. The UK has played a of energy and the second largest consumer. Europe central role in shaping that European action and is at depends on just three countries—Russia, Norway and the heart of international agreements. I join other hon. Algeria—for nearly half its supply of gas. As has been Members in welcoming the plans to develop a European said in this debate, there have been concerns in recent supergrid. years that Russia would use that control for political purposes. A great deal of progress and development is required In addition, we face the constant threat of global on clean coal and on carbon capture and storage. I terrorism. Al-Qaeda has threatened to attack what Osama know that energy efficiency is high on the Government’s bin Laden calls the “hinges” of the world economy, of priority list, but we have to do a great deal more to which energy is the most crucial. The resource crisis make homes more efficient. I welcomed the Warm means that the main production sites are the sources of Front programme, which did a lot to insulate homes. In rising tensions. About a third of the world’s civil wars my constituency, 8,000 homes received loft insulation, are in oil-producing states. Economic power is also double glazing and other measures to improve energy shifting to oil and gas-rich states and the elites within efficiency. them. As Thomas Friedman has argued, soaring oil It will not be easy to switch to being a low-carbon prices strengthen anti-democratic regimes. economy. That change will force nations to co-operate We know that energy production is a major contributor and will require unprecedented development and use of to climate change. It is therefore impossible to discuss existing and new technologies. Renewables, nuclear power energy without referring to the impact on our environment, and carbon capture and storage will all come into the and ultimately on human welfare. As it is such a huge equation. All that will cost about £10.5 trillion globally part of the climate change problem, energy must be at between now and 2030, but those costs will be vastly the heart of any solution. outweighed by what we will reap in environmental and energy security. Mr. Crabb: The hon. Gentleman has been making some quite alarmist comments about imported energy 6.34 pm sources. Does he recognise that the real stresses on the Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): Several speakers have UK energy system in recent years have come from talked about the oil and gas industry in the North sea, problems such as the Buncefield explosion, the fire at but I would caution Members about writing it off. The the Rough gas storage facility and, in recent days, ice in Energy and Climate Change Committee report shows the pipelines that connect us to the Norwegian gas that this industry still has a future, not only because field? Those kinds of problems are the immediate challenges there is a large amount of oil and gas in the North sea, to UK energy security, not the threats from terrorists but because there is an opportunity to use the skills that he is talking about. developed in the North sea to move forward into renewables Mr. Hendrick: I remind the hon. Gentleman of the industries, particularly offshore wind and tidal and comment of a Conservative Front Bencher: we should wave power, which could be the key to much of our expect the unexpected. energy for the future. 793 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 794

I agree with what the right hon. Member for Croydon, more productive or competitive a renewable project in North (Malcolm Wicks) said about the dash for gas. Scotland has to be to offset the impact of a locational Generating electricity might well not be the best use of charge. Alternative models of charging should be our gas reserves, but the fact is that gas is a major part considered, particularly the post stamp model, which of our electricity generation at the moment. Under would be in the national interest as well as in the current proposals, 33 gas plants have received planning interests of generators in Scotland. If we do not get this permission but are not yet in operation and another right, I greatly fear that we will end up— nine are under consideration, totalling about 15 MW already planned to come on stream. They will play a Mr. Speaker: Order. considerable part in our energy provision for the foreseeable future. 6.39 pm In Committee, I proposed an amendment to the Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con): This debate has Energy Bill to try to get the Government to look at gas been all too short, but we have had some absolutely combined capture and storage. The Government opposed excellent contributions. They have been thoughtful, and defeated it. I entirely understand the Government’s constructive and well informed, showing the House at wish to concentrate on coal in the first instance, and I its best in terms of the expertise that it can bring to understand, as do all members of the Committee, the incredibly important and relevant debates such as this. need to get CCS for coal, but I do not understand the The only sadness is that, as a result of its timing, we refusal even to consider gas for the near future. Given have not been able to hear from more right hon. and the amount of gas that we still use in generation, it hon. Members. However, the contributions that we have seems to me that it is going to be part of our energy mix heard have been constructive and relevant. for the foreseeable future, so we are going to have to The right hon. Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm decarbonise gas as well. Even at this late stage, I ask the Wicks), a former Minister, spoke with his usual authority. Government to think again. So he should do: he was Energy Minister No. 7 and In the remaining few minutes, I want to concentrate No. 10 of the 15 whom there have been since the on the vital issue of transmission charges, which I Government came to power in 1997; and based on his raised in an intervention. If renewables are going to speech he could be Minister No. 16, too. He brought to play a major part in our energy mix, we will have to deal bear his global view and understanding of the issues in with this matter. The Government have rightly announced a constructive and helpful speech, and he was justifiably ambitious plans for offshore wind farms, but that energy frustrated by the fact that we have not seen the report has to come ashore, get into the national grid and be that the Government should have published in response transmitted to the areas where it will be used. to his helpful and constructive paper. I hope that that response will be forthcoming. The current transmission regime was developed for a grid where power came from big coal, gas and probably My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal nuclear stations, which were often located near the main (Mr. Gummer) showed his expertise and understanding centres of population, but it is not fit for a new century of the issues, and he delivered a clear wake-up call when of renewables, when energy sources are in much more he talked about the areas where progress is not fast remote areas and there are greater difficulties in getting enough. They include smart metering, smart grids and that energy into the national grid. the drive to renewables and energy efficiency. I assure him that, although we recognise that in the European The locational charging methodology used by Ofgem Union energy is a retained power, we totally understand levies higher charges on generators furthest from the the need to co-operate and work with our European main centres of demand, which generally favours those partners to ensure the energy security that is necessary in the southern part of the UK over those in Scotland. in a changing and challenging world. Indeed, it has been calculated that transmission charges are £21.58 per kilowatt-hour in the north of Scotland The right hon. Member for Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) compared to an effective subsidy of £6.90 per kilowatt-hour talked about the need for diversity and rightly reminded in London. That is a lunatic system when we are looking us of the importance of fuel poverty in this debate, to develop renewables. As a result, Scottish generators because there is a direct link between the security of produce 12 per cent. of UK generation but account for supply and fuel poverty. Security of supply challenges 40 per cent. of the transmission costs—about £100 million do not necessarily just lead to power cuts; first, they a year more than their fair share. lead to price spikes, which are damaging for consumers, and particularly for businesses. Wind is not the only issue here. For example, there are huge opportunities in the Pentland firth for tidal My right hon. Friend the Member for Wells power, but we need the infrastructure to bring that (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) also put the matter into a power into the grid. It is not a case of putting the cost global context and talked about the international challenges on the developer; the matter should be part of a national that we face, including population growth. However, he plan for renewables. Only last weekend, a considerable reminded us clearly of the wasted opportunities and the amount of controversy arose over suggestions that National lost years—the years when things could have been done Grid might be thinking of doubling or tripling charges to prepare us for the situation that we face today. Those to the islands, although it has been denied. opportunities were missed. Will the Minister look seriously at instructing Ofgem Mr. David Anderson: Will the hon. Gentleman give and National Grid to undertake an objective and open way? analysis of the impact of locational charging, broken down by each part of the UK and by type of generation Charles Hendry: I hope to be forgiven if I do not give for both current and future generation mix scenarios. way, because we have been very short of time in this That should address the key question of how much debate. If there is time towards the end of my contribution, 795 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 796

[Charles Hendry] storage facility. There are no grounds for complacency because of the external pressures that are creating a real I most certainly will give way, because I know that the problem of demand. This is the third time in four years hon. Gentleman has been here, waiting very patiently, that we have been down to a few days of gas storage. throughout the debate. In fact, as he has been here so Indeed, if it had not been for the recession—with demand patiently throughout, I shall give way. overall down by 5 per cent. and industrial demand down by 15 per cent.—there is no doubt that we would Mr. Anderson: The hon. Gentleman talks about the be in very difficult circumstances now, and possibly lost years, but what about the lost years of the 1980s, having outages. when the Conservative party devastated the coal industry, privatised the utilities and left us with the mess that we We are in the strange position that the electricity areinnow? interconnector with France is still exporting 2 GW of power at a time when our own industrial users are being Charles Hendry: I knew that my instincts were right: I asked to switch off their gas. That is something that the should not have given way to the hon. Gentleman. In market decides that it wants to do, but we would be the 1980s, we set the market framework that delivered much more comfortable about that if we had more gas the cheapest energy prices in Europe for the next 20 years. storage and knew that our industrial users would be The model has worked, and it has been pretty robust up able to work when they wanted to do so. to now. Much of the rest of the debate dealt with the issues of We heard from the hon. Member for Nottingham, electricity generation. In the Secretary of State’s opening South (Alan Simpson), who will be a great loss to this remarks—I am sorry that he is not in his place—he Chamber when he steps down as a Member. He made a talked about the need to focus on the facts. He talked very thoughtful and visionary speech on themes that he about wind, but he did not mention the need for massive has made his own during his time in the House, and he back-up to make wind power reliable. In this cold spell, described his concern to ensure that feed-in tariffs are one fifth of 1 per cent. of our electricity has come from set at the right level. We share his concern, because we wind, which shows the extent to which back-up is had to work very hard to put those tariffs on to the necessary. He spoke about offshore wind, but he did not statute book, and it would be a tragedy if they were mention the fact that we are potentially losing some of set at a level that did not deliver the benefits that we the best companies in the country, such as Aquamarine hoped for. and Pelamus, which are now looking to invest in the US My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, South and Portugal, because greater support is coming from (Richard Ottaway) rightly focused on the investment their Governments. Nor did he mention the problems that has been made and the vital contribution that with the supply of ships, cranes, skills and funding—and liquefied natural gas terminals have made to our energy apart from those problems, everything is going really security. We heard a very thoughtful speech from the well! The Secretary of State talks about the positive hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Hendrick), and the hon. aspects, but he does not mention the challenges. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) brought us back to gas The Secretary of State talked about nuclear, but he when he talked about carbon capture and storage. We did not really comment on the fact that Vincent de supported him in a Division on the issue in the Energy Rivaz, the chief executive of EDF, said this week that Bill Committee yesterday, and I am sorry that we could the key driver of investment will be a floor price in not persuade the Government to take a broader view on carbon. What is the Secretary of State’s position on CCS and help Britain take a big step forward in that that? On carbon capture and storage, he did not talk area. about the need for a real Government vision on the Much of this debate has, understandably, focused on investment in pipeline infrastructure and a body to gas storage. The Secretary of State talked about the ensure that we co-ordinate the work in that area. issue, saying that we have the lowest prices in Europe, but if there were more gas storage, there would be The Government’s approach has been characterised greater price benefits to our consumers. Gas could be by a mass of ambitious targets that sound good, but we bought in the summer, when it is cheaper, and sold have no road map for getting there. There is a road map without big price spikes in the winter. There is a link for nuclear, but on everything else nobody knows who is between storage and pricing. responsible for doing what and when in order to meet the targets. That has led to Ernst and Young saying that The Secretary of State also referred to the recently we need £200 billion of new investment in our energy published national policy statement, as if that will put infrastructure over the next 15 years—£50 billion in the right gas storage. We have done a quick check, and of next five years—because of the failure to secure that the 675 pages of policy statement that the Energy investment in the past. and Climate Change Committee is going through, seven—1 per cent. of them—relate to gas storage. That We face a real challenge and a significant wake-up is not quite the commitment that we are looking for. call. Several things have happened today that reinforce We have to recognise that all is not well. At the that point. Alistair Buchanan, the chief executive of maximum level of gas storage in this country, we had Ofgem, has warned that Britain’s gas market faces a 16 days. Last week, my hon. Friend the Member for “cliff edge” in 2015-16 that could cause supplies to run Tunbridge Wells pointed out that we had eight days short by the end of the decade. Some of Britain’s largest maximum storage left, and today it is down to six. Part businesses have written to the Financial Times to say: of the problem has arisen because the Langeled pipeline “The bottom line is that the UK was unable to meet the needs has not been working at capacity, just as part of the of all consumers…As a nation, we need to take security of our problem four years ago was the fire at the Rough energy supply more seriously.” 797 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 798

It has also been announced that half the members of 99.989 per cent. That typifies the robustness of the the Chemical Industries Association say that increased UK’s energy system and we fully intend it to be maintained gas storage is essential to future investment by their this year, next year and every year. companies in the UK. Reuters is even quoting an unlikely source who should know the facts, who said today: Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): My “There is clearly an urgent need for additional gas storage in point is not weather-related. Unfortunately, my constituents the UK”. have been suffering from a periodic set of power cuts. It We welcome the Secretary of State to the cause. is particularly frustrating when Christmas day is spoilt The truth is that the Labour party has always been for Croydon residents because of power cuts, and on the party of energy insecurity. In the 1980s, it opposed 4 January, more than 4,500 residents lost out. Does the the building of Sizewell B. In 1997, it was elected on a Minister think that perhaps more should be invested in commitment to move away from gas to coal just as our maintaining the system and that perhaps the return on coal production was beginning to decline and imports equity for EDF in London is too high? were increasing. In 2003, the Government ruled out nuclear as having any role to play in future energy Mr. Kidney: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I will policy, only to reverse that decision four years later. make inquiries on that point and see whether I can say They have known for years about the amount of our more after I have the facts. capacity that will be decommissioned, but they have Our plans commit us to tackling climate change, failed to secure the new investment. This debate is not ensuring security of energy supplies and keeping energy just about the challenges of this week, but the longer-term costs affordable. We want to ensure that all consumers issues facing our nation on which the Government have have a fair deal. As everyone in the debate has said, the been found wanting. key to security of energy supply is diversity of energy supplies and sources. Last July’s transition plan outlines 6.50 pm how nuclear power, alongside a sevenfold increase in renewables and investment in clean fossil fuels, will help The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Energy us to achieve a low-carbon future and secure the UK’s and Climate Change (Mr. David Kidney): I, too, agree energy supply. that this impressive debate has shown the House at its best; the contributions, coming from people with great I shall say a little more about those customers. We knowledge, forcefulness and passion, have been superb. have heard about some worrying incidents relating to I know that some people who wanted to speak have not elderly people who were concerned about the cost of been able to. My hon. Friend the Member for Copeland keeping their homes warm. The hon. Member for North (Mr. Reed) failed to have an intervention accepted by Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) talked of the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark). people who were frightened last week by scaremongering My hon. Friend is a superb and unique representative stories in the media from the Conservatives and of of his constituents and a person with great knowledge elderly people feeling that they could not keep their of the nuclear industry, and we would have benefited heating on. That is an appalling state of affairs and we from his contributing to this debate. The same could be need to send the message from this Chamber that said of my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon people must keep their heating on during this dangerously (Mr. Anderson), who got in with a couple of telling cold weather. My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, interventions about the coal industry. He is a doughty South (Alan Simpson) reminded us of the personal cost champion for the coal sector in this country. behind the statistics on excess winter deaths. I assure the House that the Government are determined to do all I pay tribute to and thank our energy sector and its that we can to eradicate fuel poverty in this country. workers for ensuring that energy supplies have been maintained. Over the past 10 days, we have experienced Many people pointed out the obvious fact that the severe weather and the most prolonged spell of freezing more energy use we can avert, the greater our success conditions across the United Kingdom for 29 years and will be in cutting carbon emissions, assuring ourselves there have been record levels of gas demand. The UK’s of energy security and, of course, cutting our energy energy system has coped well. There have been no costs. The Government take seriously the need for unplanned interruptions to gas supply, despite the record energy efficiency in many fields. One is transport, an demands. As has been widely reported, some industrial area of policy that has not been covered, perhaps for customers on commercially interruptible contracts had understandable reasons, but in which there are great their supplies reduced temporarily. That was in line gains to be made through energy efficiency. Another is with commercial arrangements and is part of the normal domestic properties, and millions of people in this working of the market. country have been helped to insulate their homes by schemes such as the Government’s Warm Front and the That market has also worked well, with imports suppliers’ obligation, currently called CERT—the carbon responding to the need for extra gas in the UK—I emissions reduction target. include liquefied natural gas and flows through the interconnector in that. In particular, I wish to thank the Let us not forget the contribution that commercial National Grid Company for its role in balancing the gas businesses need to make to avert costs in energy and system during these challenging times. Let us not forget reduce their carbon emissions. We help with expert that the electricity infrastructure has also performed advice, interest-free loans and mechanisms such as climate well, with the faults caused by the most severe weather change agreements and the emissions trading scheme. on 6 January being quickly addressed and the supply The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), restored—the last few customers had it restored over who is no longer in the Chamber— the weekend. The UK electricity industry has an excellent standard of service—the reliability for 2008-09 was Rob Marris: Yes, he is. 799 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 800

Mr. Kidney: Ah, there he is! Thank you. They will help us to save the planet and to keep this country’s energy secure and affordable. They will be The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the carbon skilled, well-paid and highly respected by others. What reduction commitment energy efficiency scheme that more incentive do those young people need in order to begins in April. I take to heart his comments about the sign up? design of the scheme and about who will be admitted to it, but the truth is that some of the largest emitters of Question put (Standing Order No. 31(2)), That the carbon will be entered into the scheme and they will cut original words stand part of the Question. their carbon emissions as well as making savings on The House divided: Ayes 182, Noes 355. their energy bills. Division No. 38] [6.59 pm Many hon. Members referred to the contribution of renewables, including my right hon. Friend the Member AYES for Scunthorpe (Mr. Morley) and my hon. Friend the Afriyie, Adam Gibb, Mr. Nick Member for Nottingham, South. Most of those who Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl spoke in the debate gave a warm welcome to last week’s Amess, Mr. David Goodman, Mr. Paul announcement of the round 3 offshore wind licences. Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Goodwill, Mr. Robert This country was already the world leader in connected Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Gove, Michael energy from offshore wind, and our performance in that Atkinson, Mr. Peter Gray, Mr. James area is now putting a considerable distance between Bacon, Mr. Richard Grayling, Chris ourselves and the rest of the world. But we do not rely Baldry, Tony Green, Damian solely on wind as a source of renewable energy, important Barker, Gregory Greening, Justine though it is. There is also biomass, hydro, solar, heat Baron, Mr. John Greenway, Mr. John pumps and many other sources that we promote. I Bellingham, Mr. Henry Grieve, Mr. Dominic Benyon, Mr. Richard Gummer, rh Mr. John noted the considerable enthusiasm around the Chamber Beresford, Sir Paul Hague, rh Mr. William for microgeneration, and a general welcome for feed-in Binley, Mr. Brian Hammond, Mr. Philip tariffs, which at long last will begin in this country this Blunt, Mr. Crispin Hammond, Stephen April. Bone, Mr. Peter Hands, Mr. Greg Many hon. Members also referred to the contribution Boswell, Mr. Tim Harper, Mr. Mark of nuclear, including the right hon. Members for Wells Bottomley, Peter Hayes, Mr. John (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) and for Suffolk, Coastal, the Brady, Mr. Graham Heald, Mr. Oliver Brazier, Mr. Julian Heathcoat-Amory, rh hon. Member for Croydon, South (Richard Ottaway) Brokenshire, James Mr. David and my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon, Browning, Angela Hendry, Charles North (Malcolm Wicks). I have already said that my Burns, Mr. Simon Herbert, Nick hon. Friend the Member for Copeland would have liked Burrowes, Mr. David Hoban, Mr. Mark to contribute to the debate on nuclear. I remind hon. Burt, Alistair Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Members that we have put in place the legal framework Butterfill, Sir John Hollobone, Mr. Philip for new nuclear, including provisions on payment for Campbell, Mr. Gregory Holloway, Mr. Adam the storage of waste and on decommissioning, and the Carswell, Mr. Douglas Horam, Mr. John planning changes to ensure that the process will be Cash, Mr. William Howard, rh Mr. Michael quick. The economic environment that we have put in Chope, Mr. Christopher Howarth, Mr. Gerald place has already enabled three consortiums to commit Clappison, Mr. James Howell, John to building new nuclear power in this country that will Clark, Greg Hunt, Mr. Jeremy produce 16 GW of energy. Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Hurd, Mr. Nick Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Jack, rh Mr. Michael Many hon. Members mentioned the importance of Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Jackson, Mr. Stewart carbon capture and storage. What is so crucial about Curry, rh Mr. David Jenkin, Mr. Bernard CCS is that, as we invest more and more in renewables, Davies, David T.C. Jones, Mr. David which produce electricity for the national grid intermittently, (Monmouth) Kawczynski, Daniel we will need the back-up that reliable sources such as Davies, Philip Key, Robert coal and gas can offer. The consequences of their Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Kirkbride, Miss Julie Dodds, Mr. Nigel Knight, rh Mr. Greg carbon emissions are too great to contemplate, however, Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Lancaster, Mr. Mark without a means of abating those emissions. That is Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Leigh, Mr. Edward where CCS will be so important, which is why it is good Dorries, Nadine Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver that our Government are now committed to four CCS Duddridge, James Lewis, Dr. Julian demonstration projects on a commercial scale. Duncan, Alan Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian I would have liked to spend longer talking about all Dunne, Mr. Philip Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Ellwood, Mr. Tobias Loughton, Tim the points that hon. Members raised. I agree with my Evans, Mr. Nigel Luff, Peter opposite number, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Evennett, Mr. David Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Hendry), that it has been such a good debate that it Fabricant, Michael Maclean, rh David deserved more time. I started by thanking all those who Fallon, Mr. Michael Main, Anne have worked to ensure that our energy supplies were Field, Mr. Mark Malins, Mr. Humfrey maintained during the period of severe weather. It has Fox, Dr. Liam Maples, Mr. John brought home to us how valuable the jobs of today’s Francois, Mr. Mark Mates, rh Mr. Michael energy workers are, but I should like to address my final Fraser, Christopher Maude, rh Mr. Francis remarks to the energy workers of tomorrow. Let me Gale, Mr. Roger May, rh Mrs. Theresa point out to today’s schoolchildren, students and young Garnier, Mr. Edward McCrea, Dr. William men and women that these are vital jobs to be filled. Gauke, Mr. David McIntosh, Miss Anne 801 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 802

McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Spring, Mr. Richard Clarke,rhMr.Tom Harris, Mr. Tom Mercer, Patrick Stanley, rh Sir John Clegg, rh Mr. Nick Harvey, Nick Miller, Mrs. Maria Steen, Mr. Anthony Clelland, Mr. David Havard, Mr. Dai Milton, Anne Streeter, Mr. Gary Clwyd, rh Ann Healey, rh John Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Stuart, Mr. Graham Coaker, Mr. Vernon Heath, Mr. David Moss, Mr. Malcolm Swayne, Mr. Desmond Coffey, Ann Hendrick, Mr. Mark Murrison, Dr. Andrew Swire, Mr. Hugo Cohen, Harry Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Neill, Robert Syms, Mr. Robert Connarty, Michael Heppell, Mr. John Newmark, Mr. Brooks Tapsell, Sir Peter Cook, Frank Hesford, Stephen O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Timpson, Mr. Edward Cooper, Rosie Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Osborne, Mr. George Tredinnick, David Cooper, rh Yvette Heyes, David Ottaway, Richard Turner, Mr. Andrew Corbyn, Jeremy Hill, rh Keith Paice, Mr. James Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Crausby, Mr. David Hillier, Meg Paterson, Mr. Owen Vara, Mr. Shailesh Creagh, Mary Hodge, rh Margaret Penrose, John Viggers, Sir Peter Cruddas, Jon Holmes, Paul Prisk, Mr. Mark Walker, Mr. Charles Cryer, Mrs. Ann Hood, Mr. Jim Pritchard, Mark Wallace, Mr. Ben Cummings, John Hope, Phil Randall, Mr. John Walter, Mr. Robert Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hopkins, Kelvin Redwood, rh Mr. John Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cunningham, Tony Horwood, Martin Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Watkinson, Angela David, Mr. Wayne Howarth, David Robathan, Mr. Andrew Whittingdale, Mr. John Davidson, Mr. Ian Howarth, rh Mr. George Robertson, Hugh Widdecombe, rh Miss Davies, Mr. Dai Howells, rh Dr. Kim Robertson, Mr. Laurence Ann Davies, Mr. Quentin Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Rosindell, Andrew Willetts, Mr. David Dean, Mrs. Janet Hughes, Simon Scott, Mr. Lee Williams, Hywel Denham, rh Mr. John Huhne, Chris Selous, Andrew Wilshire, Mr. David Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Humble, Mrs. Joan Shapps, Grant Wilson, Mr. Rob Dismore, Mr. Andrew Hutton, rh Mr. John Shepherd, Mr. Richard Wilson, Sammy Dobbin, Jim Iddon, Dr. Brian Simmonds, Mark Winterton, Ann Dobson, rh Frank Illsley, Mr. Eric Simpson, David Winterton, Sir Nicholas Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Irranca-Davies, Huw Simpson, Mr. Keith Wright, Jeremy Doran, Mr. Frank James, Mrs. Siân C. Smith, Chloe Young, rh Sir George Dowd, Jim Jenkins, Mr. Brian Soames, Mr. Nicholas Tellers for the Ayes: Drew, Mr. David Johnson, rh Alan Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Bill Wiggin and Eagle, Angela Johnson, Ms Diana Spicer, Sir Michael Mr. Stephen Crabb Eagle, Maria R. Efford, Clive Jones, Helen Ellman, Mrs. Louise Jones, Mr. Kevan NOES Engel, Natascha Jones, Lynne Abbott, Ms Diane Blizzard, Mr. Bob Ennis, Jeff Jones, Mr. Martyn Ainger, Nick Blunkett, rh Mr. David Farrelly, Paul Jowell, rh Tessa Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Borrow, Mr. David S. Field, rh Mr. Frank Joyce, Mr. Eric Alexander, Danny Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Fisher, Mark Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Brake, Tom Flello, Mr. Robert Keeble, Ms Sally Allen, Mr. Graham Breed, Mr. Colin Flint, rh Caroline Keeley, Barbara Anderson, Mr. David Brennan, Kevin Follett, Barbara Keen, Alan Anderson, Janet Brooke, Annette Foster, Mr. Don Keen, Ann Armstrong, rh Hilary Brown, Lyn Foster, Mr. Michael Kelly, rh Ruth Atkins, Charlotte Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas (Worcester) Kemp, Mr. Fraser Austin, Mr. Ian Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Michael Jabez Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Austin, John Browne, rh Des (Hastings and Rye) Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Bailey, Mr. Adrian Bryant, Chris Francis, Dr. Hywel Kidney, Mr. David Bain, Mr. William Buck, Ms Karen Gardiner, Barry Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Baird, Vera Burden, Richard George, Andrew Knight, rh Jim Baker, Norman Burgon, Colin George, rh Mr. Bruce Kumar, Dr. Ashok Balls, rh Ed Burnham, rh Andy Gerrard, Mr. Neil Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Banks, Gordon Burstow, Mr. Paul Gidley, Sandra Lammy, rh Mr. David Barlow, Ms Celia Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gilroy, Linda Laxton, Mr. Bob Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Godsiff, Mr. Roger Lazarowicz, Mark Battle, rh John Cable, Dr. Vincent Goggins, rh Paul Leech, Mr. John Bayley, Hugh Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Goldsworthy, Julia Lepper, David Beckett, rh Margaret Cairns, David Goodman, Helen Levitt, Tom Begg, Miss Anne Campbell, Mr. Alan Griffith, Nia Linton, Martin Beith, rh Sir Alan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Griffiths, Nigel Lloyd, Tony Bell, Sir Stuart Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Grogan, Mr. John Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Benn, rh Hilary Caton, Mr. Martin Gwynne, Andrew Love, Mr. Andrew Benton, Mr. Joe Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hain, rh Mr. Peter Lucas, Ian Berry, Roger Challen, Colin Hall, Mr. Mike MacNeil, Mr. Angus Betts, Mr. Clive Chapman, Ben Hall, Patrick MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Blackman, Liz Clapham, Mr. Michael Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Mactaggart, Fiona Blackman-Woods, Dr. Clark, Ms Katy Hancock, Mr. Mike Malik, Mr. Shahid Roberta Clark, Paul Hanson, rh Mr. David Mallaber, Judy Blears, rh Hazel Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mann, John 803 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 804

Marris, Rob Roy, Lindsay Wright, Mr. Iain Tellers for the Noes: Marsden, Mr. Gordon Ruane, Chris Wright, Dr. Tony Steve McCabe and Martlew, Mr. Eric Ruddock, Joan Wyatt, Derek Mrs. Sharon Hodgson Mason, John Russell, Bob Younger-Ross, Richard McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Russell, Christine McCafferty, Chris Ryan, rh Joan Question accordingly negatived. McCarthy, Kerry Salter, Martin McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Sanders, Mr. Adrian Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 31(2)), McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad That the proposed words be there added. McDonagh, Siobhain Seabeck, Alison The House divided: Ayes 285, Noes 173. McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Sharma, Mr. Virendra McFall, rh John Shaw, Jonathan Division No. 39] [7.15 pm McGovern, Mr. Jim Sheerman, Mr. Barry McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Sheridan, Jim AYES McIsaac, Shona Simon, Mr. Siôn Abbott, Ms Diane Coaker, Mr. Vernon McKechin, Ann Simpson, Alan Ainger, Nick Coffey, Ann McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Skinner, Mr. Dennis Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Cohen, Harry Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Slaughter, Mr. Andy Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Connarty, Michael Meale, Mr. Alan Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Anderson, Mr. David Cooper, Rosie Merron, Gillian Smith, Ms Angela C. Anderson, Janet Cooper, rh Yvette Michael, rh Alun (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Armstrong, rh Hilary Crausby, Mr. David Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Atkins, Charlotte Creagh, Mary Miliband, rh Edward Smith, Geraldine Austin, Mr. Ian Cruddas, Jon Miller, Andrew Smith, rh Jacqui Austin, , Mrs. Ann Mitchell, Mr. Austin Snelgrove, Anne Bailey, Mr. Adrian Cummings, John Moffat, Anne Soulsby, Sir Peter Bain, Mr. William Cunningham, Mr. Jim Moffatt, Laura Southworth, Helen Baird, Vera Cunningham, Tony Mole, Chris Spellar, rh Mr. John Balls, rh Ed David, Mr. Wayne Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Banks, Gordon Davidson, Mr. Ian Morden, Jessica Stewart, Ian Barlow, Ms Celia Davies, Mr. Quentin Morgan, Julie Stoate, Dr. Howard Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Dean, Mrs. Janet Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Straw, rh Mr. Jack Battle, rh , rh Mr. John Mudie, Mr. George Stuart, Ms Gisela Bayley, Hugh Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Mulholland, Greg Stunell, Andrew Beckett, rh Margaret Dismore, Mr. Andrew Mullin, Mr. Chris Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Begg, Miss Anne Dobbin, Jim Munn, Meg Swinson, Jo Benn, rh Hilary Dobson, rh Frank Murphy, Mr. Denis Tami, Mark Benton, Mr. Joe Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Taylor, Ms Dari Berry, Roger Doran, Mr. Frank Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Taylor, Matthew Betts, Mr. Clive Dowd, Jim Naysmith, Dr. Doug Taylor, Dr. Richard Blackman, Liz Eagle, Angela O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Teather, Sarah Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Eagle, Maria O’Hara, Mr. Edward Thomas, Mr. Gareth Blears, rh Hazel Ellman, Mrs. Louise Olner, Mr. Bill Thornberry, Emily Blizzard, Mr. Bob Engel, Natascha Öpik, Lembit Thurso, John Blunkett, rh Mr. David Ennis, Jeff Osborne, Sandra Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Borrow, Mr. David S. Farrelly, Paul Palmer, Dr. Nick Tipping, Paddy Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Fisher, Mark Pearson, Ian Todd, Mr. Mark Brennan, Kevin Flello, Mr. Robert Pelling, Mr. Andrew Touhig, rh Mr. Don Brown, Lyn Flint, rh Caroline Plaskitt, Mr. James Trickett, Jon Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Follett, Barbara Pope, Mr. Greg Turner, Dr. Desmond Brown, Mr. Russell Foster, Mr. Michael Pound, , Derek Browne, rh Des (Worcester) Prentice, Bridget Waltho, Lynda Bryant, Chris Foster, Michael Jabez Prentice, Mr. Gordon Ward, Claire Buck, Ms Karen (Hastings and Rye) Prescott, rh Mr. John Watson, Mr. Tom Burden, Richard Francis, Dr. Hywel Price, Adam Watts, Mr. Dave Burgon, Colin Gardiner, Barry Primarolo, rh Dawn Weir, Mr. Mike Burnham, rh Andy George, rh Mr. Bruce Prosser, Gwyn Whitehead, Dr. Alan Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Gerrard, Mr. Neil Pugh, Dr. John Wicks, rh Malcolm Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Gilroy, Linda Purchase, Mr. Ken Williams, rh Mr. Alan Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Godsiff, Mr. Roger Purnell, rh James Williams, Mrs. Betty Cairns, David Goggins, rh Paul Rammell, Bill Williams, Mark Campbell, Mr. Alan Goodman, Helen Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Williams, Mr. Roger Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Griffith, Nia Reed, Mr. Andy Williams, Stephen Caton, Mr. Martin Griffiths, Nigel Reed, Mr. Jamie Willis, Mr. Phil Cawsey, Mr. Ian Grogan, Mr. John Reid, rh John Wills, rh Mr. Michael Challen, Colin Gwynne, Andrew Riordan, Mrs. Linda Wilson, Phil Clapham, Mr. Michael Hain, rh Mr. Peter Robertson, Angus Winnick, Mr. David Clark, Ms Katy Hall, Mr. Mike Robertson, John Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clark, Paul Hall, Patrick Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Wishart, Pete Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Rooney, Mr. Terry Woolas, Mr. Phil Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hanson, rh Mr. David Rowen, Paul Wright, Mr. Anthony Clelland, Mr. David Harman, rh Ms Harriet Roy, Mr. Frank Wright, David Clwyd, rh Ann Havard, Mr. Dai 805 Energy Security13 JANUARY 2010 Energy Security 806

Hendrick, Mr. Mark Merron, Gillian Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Williams, rh Mr. Alan Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Michael, rh Alun Tami, Mark Williams, Mrs. Betty Heppell, Mr. John Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Taylor, Ms Dari Wills, rh Mr. Michael Hesford, Stephen Miliband, rh Edward Thomas, Mr. Gareth Wilson, Phil Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Miller, Andrew Thornberry, Emily Winnick, Mr. David Heyes, David Mitchell, Mr. Austin Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hill, rh Keith Moffat, Anne Tipping, Paddy Woolas, Mr. Phil Hillier, Meg Moffatt, Laura Todd, Mr. Mark Wright, Mr. Anthony Hodge, rh Margaret Mole, Chris Touhig, rh Mr. Don Wright, David Hood, Mr. Jim Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Trickett, Jon Wright, Mr. Iain Hope, Phil Morden, Jessica Turner, Dr. Desmond Wright, Dr. Tony Howarth, rh Mr. George Morgan, Julie Waltho, Lynda Wyatt, Derek Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mudie, Mr. George Ward, Claire Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mullin, Mr. Chris Watts, Mr. Dave Tellers for the Ayes: Humble, Mrs. Joan Munn, Meg Whitehead, Dr. Alan Steve McCabe and Hutton, rh Mr. John Murphy, Mr. Denis Wicks, rh Malcolm Mrs. Sharon Hodgson Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Paul NOES Irranca-Davies, Huw Naysmith, Dr. Doug James, Mrs. Siân C. O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Gauke, Mr. David Jenkins, Mr. Brian O’Hara, Mr. Edward Alexander, Danny George, Andrew Johnson, Ms Diana R. Olner, Mr. Bill Amess, Mr. David Gibb, Mr. Nick Jones, Helen Osborne, Sandra Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Gidley, Sandra Jones, Mr. Kevan Palmer, Dr. Nick Atkinson, Mr. Peter Goldsworthy, Julia Jones, Lynne Pearson, Ian Bacon, Mr. Richard Goodman, Mr. Paul Jones, Mr. Martyn Plaskitt, Mr. James Baldry, Tony Goodwill, Mr. Robert Jowell, rh Tessa Pound, Stephen Barker, Gregory Gove, Michael Joyce, Mr. Eric Prentice, Bridget Baron, Mr. John Grayling, Chris Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Prentice, Mr. Gordon Beith, rh Sir Alan Green, Damian Keeble, Ms Sally Prescott, rh Mr. John Bellingham, Mr. Henry Greening, Justine Keeley, Barbara Primarolo, rh Dawn Beresford, Sir Paul Grieve, Mr. Dominic Keen, Alan Prosser, Gwyn Binley, Mr. Brian Gummer, rh Mr. John Keen, Ann Purchase, Mr. Ken Blunt, Mr. Crispin Hague, rh Mr. William Kelly, rh Ruth Purnell, rh James Bone, Mr. Peter Hammond, Stephen Kemp, Mr. Fraser Rammell, Bill Bottomley, Peter Hancock, Mr. Mike Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Brake, Tom Hands, Mr. Greg Kidney, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Andy Brazier, Mr. Julian Harper, Mr. Mark Knight, rh Jim Reed, Mr. Jamie Breed, Mr. Colin Harvey, Nick Kumar, Dr. Ashok Reid, rh John Brokenshire, James Hayes, Mr. John Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Riordan, Mrs. Linda Brooke, Annette Heald, Mr. Oliver Lammy, rh Mr. David Robertson, John Browning, Angela Heath, Mr. David Laxton, Mr. Bob Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Burrowes, Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory, rh Lazarowicz, Mark Rooney, Mr. Terry Burstow, Mr. Paul Mr. David Lepper, David Roy, Mr. Frank Burt, Alistair Hemming, John Levitt, Tom Roy, Lindsay Cable, Dr. Vincent Herbert, Nick Linton, Martin Ruane, Chris Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hoban, Mr. Mark Lloyd, Tony Ruddock, Joan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Love, Mr. Andrew Russell, Christine Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hollobone, Mr. Philip Lucas, Ian Ryan, rh Joan Cash, Mr. William Holloway, Mr. Adam MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Chope, Mr. Christopher Holmes, Paul Mactaggart, Fiona Seabeck, Alison Clark, Greg Horwood, Martin Malik, Mr. Shahid Sharma, Mr. Virendra Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Howarth, David Mallaber, Judy Shaw, Jonathan Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Howarth, Mr. Gerald Mann, John Sheridan, Jim Crabb, Mr. Stephen Howell, John Marris, Rob Simon, Mr. Siôn Davies, Mr. Dai Hughes, Simon Marsden, Mr. Gordon Skinner, Mr. Dennis Davies, David T.C. Hurd, Mr. Nick Martlew, Mr. Eric Slaughter, Mr. Andy (Monmouth) Jack, rh Mr. Michael McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Davies, Philip Jackson, Mr. Stewart McCafferty, Chris Smith, Ms Angela C. Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Jenkin, Mr. Bernard McCarthy, Kerry (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Dodds, Mr. Nigel Kawczynski, Daniel McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Donaldson, rh Mr. Jeffrey M. Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, Geraldine Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Knight, rh Mr. Greg McDonagh, Siobhain Smith, rh Jacqui Dorries, Nadine Lancaster, Mr. Mark McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Snelgrove, Anne Duddridge, James Leech, Mr. John McFall, rh John Soulsby, Sir Peter Dunne, Mr. Philip Leigh, Mr. Edward McGovern, Mr. Jim Southworth, Helen Evans, Mr. Nigel Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Spellar, rh Mr. John Fabricant, Michael Lewis, Dr. Julian McIsaac, Shona Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Fallon, Mr. Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian McKechin, Ann Stewart, Ian Foster, Mr. Don Lilley, rh Mr. Peter McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stoate, Dr. Howard Fraser, Christopher Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Straw, rh Mr. Jack Gale, Mr. Roger Loughton, Tim Meale, Mr. Alan Stuart, Ms Gisela Garnier, Mr. Edward MacNeil, Mr. Angus 807 Energy Security 13 JANUARY 2010 808

Mason, John Spring, Mr. Richard important question about western Sahara at Prime Maude, rh Mr. Francis Stanley, rh Sir John Minister’s questions. In his answer, the Prime Minister May, rh Mrs. Theresa Steen, Mr. Anthony stated: McCrea, Dr. William Streeter, Mr. Gary “The one thing that we have tried to do is increase—indeed, McIntosh, Miss Anne Stuart, Mr. Graham double—our aid to these areas”. Mercer, Patrick Stunell, Andrew Miller, Mrs. Maria Swayne, Mr. Desmond I had a debate in Westminster Hall on aid to north Milton, Anne Swinson, Jo Africa, because I feel passionately about the region. Mitchell, Mr. Andrew Syms, Mr. Robert Department for International Development aid to north Mulholland, Greg Taylor, Matthew Africa has fallen from £3.5 million in 2003-04 down to Murrison, Dr. Andrew Taylor, Dr. Richard £500,000 in 2005-06, and to £0 in 2007-08. When spending Neill, Robert Thurso, John by other Departments is included, aid to north Africa Newmark, Mr. Brooks Timpson, Mr. Edward was £38 million in 2003-04, falling to just £2.8 million in O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Tredinnick, David 2007-08. Could I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether you Öpik, Lembit Turner, Mr. Andrew could ask the Prime Minister, before he makes these Osborne, Mr. George Tyrie, Mr. Andrew replies, to get his facts straight? Paterson, Mr. Owen Viggers, Sir Peter Pelling, Mr. Andrew Walker, Mr. Charles Mr. Speaker: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for Price, Adam Wallace, Mr. Ben his point of order and for his courtesy in giving me Prisk, Mr. Mark Watkinson, Angela advance notice of it. The clue to the answer to his Pritchard, Mark Weir, Mr. Mike question lies in his reference to a debate that has taken Randall, Mr. John Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Robathan, Mr. Andrew Wiggin, Bill place. I say to the hon. Gentleman that this is essentially Robertson, Angus Willetts, Mr. David a matter of debate—hotly contested debate, I might Robertson, Hugh Williams, Hywel add. He has placed his views on this matter, and his Robertson, Mr. Laurence Williams, Mark views of the Prime Minister’s stance on it, very firmly Rosindell, Andrew Williams, Stephen and clearly on the record. Rowen, Paul Willis, Mr. Phil Russell, Bob Wilson, Mr. Rob Business without Debate Sanders, Mr. Adrian Wilson, Sammy Selous, Andrew Winterton, Ann Shapps, Grant Winterton, Sir Nicholas DELEGATED LEGISLATION Shepherd, Mr. Richard Wright, Jeremy Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Simpson, David Tellers for the Noes: Order No. 118(6)), Smith, Chloe Mr. Roger Williams and Spicer, Sir Michael Sir Robert Smith BROADCASTING That the draft Community Radio (Amendment) Order 2010, Question accordingly agreed to. which was laid before this House on 23 November, be approved— The Deputy Speaker declared the main Question, as (Mr. Blizzard.) amended, to be agreed to (Standing Order No. 31(2)). Question agreed to. Resolved, Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing That this House notes that around 20 gigawatts of new power Order No. 118(6)), generation is either under construction or has been consented to; believes that during a time of historically low temperatures and CONSTITUTIONAL LAW the highest ever gas demand in recent days, the country’s energy That the draft Local Government (Wales) Measure 2009 infrastructure has shown resilience; further notes the increase in (Consequential Modifications) Order 2009, which was laid before gas import capacity by 500 per cent. in the last decade, and the this House on 24 November, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) increase in the diversity of sources of gas, including liquefied Question agreed to. natural gas and gas imports through interconnectors with Norway and continental Europe; commends the Planning Act 2008, which Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing has created the circumstances for greater onshore gas storage as Order No. 118(6)), well as for new nuclear power stations and other low carbon energy infrastructure, and the Energy Act 2008 which has created CRIMINAL LAW the circumstances for greater offshore gas storage; backs the That the draft Criminal Justice Act 2003 (Mandatory Life development of the grid to make it ready for a low-carbon energy Sentence: Determination of Minimum Term) Order 2009, which mix; supports the Government’s drive towards greater energy was laid before this House on 25 November, be approved.— efficiency in homes through programmes such as Warm Front, (Mr. Blizzard.) the Carbon Emissions Reductions Target and Community Energy Savings Programme, all of which contribute to fighting fuel Question agreed to. poverty, and in businesses through programmes such as the forthcoming Carbon Reduction Commitment Energy Efficiency Schemes; commends the Government’s wider plans to embark on SECTION 5 OF THE EUROPEAN the Great British Refurb, where up to seven million homes will COMMUNITIES (AMENDMENT) ACT 1993 have whole house makeovers by 2020; and further supports an Motion made, approach based on strategic government and dynamic markets That, for the purposes of its approval under section 5 of the that maintains the country’s energy security as well as developing European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Government’s more diverse energy supplies, including clean coal, renewable and assessment as set out in the Pre-Budget Report 2009 shall be nuclear energy. treated as if it were an instrument subject to the provisions of Standing Order No. 118 (Delegated Legislation Committees).— Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): (Mr. Blizzard.) On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for Westbury (Dr. Murrison) asked an Hon. Members: Object. 809 Business without Debate13 JANUARY 2010 Business without Debate 810

NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY (JOINT The petition states: COMMITTEE) The Petition of persons resident in the Reading East parliamentary Ordered, constituency, That— Declares that they are concerned about the recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests closer monitoring of the Lords Message of 7 January communicating a Resolution home educators, including a compulsory annual registration scheme relating to National Security Strategy (Joint Committee), be now and right of access to people’s homes for local authority officials; considered; further declares that the Petitioners believe the recommendations this House concurs with the Lords in the said Resolution; are based on a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due and the following Standing Order be made: consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the data it (1) There shall be a Select Committee, to consist of 12 Members, collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account to join with the Committee appointed by the Lords as the Joint of the existing legislative framework. Committee on the National Security Strategy, to consider the The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons National Security Strategy. urges the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families (2) The committee shall have power to send for persons, papers either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of House, to report from time to time, and to appoint specialist children educated at home in the absence of a thorough independent advisers either to supply information which is not readily available inquiry into the condition and future of elective home education or to elucidate matters of complexity within the committee’s in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to ensure that order of reference, and to adjourn from place to place within the the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines for Local Authorities United Kingdom. are properly implemented, learning from current best practice, in all local authorities in England. (3) The quorum of the committee shall be three; and And the Petitioners remain, etc. (4) Unless the House otherwise orders, each Member nominated to the committee shall continue to be a member of it for the [P000700] remainder of the Parliament.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Incinerator (Gloucester) NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY Ordered, 7.33 pm That Mr James Arbuthnot, Margaret Beckett, Sir Alan Beith, Mr. Parmjit Dhanda (Gloucester) (Lab): On behalf of , Malcolm Bruce, Mike Gapes, Dr Kim Howells, my constituents in Gloucester, I should like to present Peter Luff, Mr Paul Murphy, Sir , Paddy Tipping this petition, which objects to the building of the 10-storey and be members of the Select Committee appointed to incinerator that has been proposed by Conservative-run join with a Committee of the Lords as the Joint Committee on Gloucestershire county council. It calls for the removal the National Security Strategy.—(Mr. Blizzard.) of incineration from the waste plan. The petition, and other associated petitions, have been signed by 1,160 of ADJOURNMENT (FEBRUARY) my constituents in Gloucester. I am delighted that three Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing of Gloucestershire’s Members of Parliament are here to Order No. 25), support it. That this House, at its rising on Wednesday 10 February 2010, The petition states: do adjourn till Monday 22 February 2010.—(Mr. Blizzard.) The Petition of residents of Gloucester and surrounding areas, The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question and others, being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday Declares that the Petitioners believe that the County Council is 20 January (Standing Order No. 41A). proposing to build a large scale incinerator in or around Gloucester capable of burning 175,000 tonnes of waste, much of which could be imported from around the country. PETITIONS Further declares that the Petitioners believe that other options have not been given sufficient consideration, and that local councillors Badman Report (Reading East) should oppose incineration and should consider other more environmentally friendly options instead. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons 7.31 pm urge the Government to call upon the City and County Councils Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): I should like to rule out incineration from Gloucestershire’s waste plan. to present this petition on behalf of some of my constituents And the Petitioners remain, etc. in Reading, East. [P000708] 811 13 JANUARY 2010 Sovereignty of Parliament 812

Sovereignty of Parliament 11-point article in the Financial Times a few days ago Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House and with unemployment rising by between 10 and 20 per do now adjourn.—(Mr. Blizzard.) cent. in many member states, buttressed by the issue of flimsy paper money, is liable to affect our sovereignty. 7.35 pm I predicted in the early 1990s that, because of the lack Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): The fundamental of a sufficient safety valve, in the other European issue that lies at the heart of this debate is the democratic Union countries and in this country a time of economic freedom of choice at the ballot box—the free choice of stress would encourage the rise of the far right and the voters of the United Kingdom to decide the laws rioting in the streets to fill the vacuum. There is no under which they are to be governed and to deal with safety valve. The safety valve of democracy is essential the question of who governs Britain. This is a vital for us to be able to ensure that we can maintain stability matter of national interest as we approach the general in our own country. election, which will probably take place in May. It is Those issues are now becoming increasingly prevalent therefore also a vital element of the political manifestos. in Greece, Italy and many parts of the eurozone, with The issue of parliamentary sovereignty is essentially new members of the EU effectively bankrupt and reliant a practical one that affects every voter and every man, on state aids amounting to £254 billion and financial woman and child in the country on a daily basis in a aid of a further £193 billion, as we heard today in the very direct way. It invades every nook and cranny and, European Scrutiny Committee. All that is unmatched according to any reasonable estimate, affects at least by any reasonable prospect of growth and enterprise in 70 per cent. of the vast array of laws that stream out of Europe under the Lisbon agenda, all of which puts the European Union like a tsunami, as I witnessed intense pressure on our own parliamentary democracy. again today in the European Scrutiny Committee, on In the last year, the European Commission approved no subjects including criminal law, state aid, financial less than £3,000 billion in aid. That speaks for itself. regulation, relations with Russia and internal security. We should remind ourselves of the debates that took In practice, it is not only the individual laws that are place at the time of the creation of the constitution of affected but whole spheres and even the running of our the United States and the insistence by Thomas Jefferson Parliament, not to mention public and local authorities. on the importance of states’ rights and sovereignty, This influence is everywhere, and most of the provisions without going down the route of a federal system in do not work. There are burdens on business, and Europe. We need to remember what John Taylor, Jefferson’s overregulation, as well as rules governing the dreadful great ally and amanuensis, stated in his work on the state of our public finances, debt levels and questions of constitution of the United States: public expenditure through the absurdly named stability “sovereignty is the highest degree of political power, and the and growth pact, which does not provide stability, growth establishment of a form of government, the highest proof which or a pact. The whole of our justice and criminal law can be given of its existence”. system is affected, as are the regulation of the City of To ignore that proposition, or to bypass it, would be London and the role of the Bank of England and like discussing human biology or the genome while financial services. Family law is affected, and so are the ignoring the arterial blood system, the supply of oxygen common agricultural policy and the common fisheries or the functions of the heart. policy, the rebate, regional policy making, energy policy— I doubt whether the BBC will even refer to this debate which we have just debated—and the consequences of or my proposals, which is as the establishment would immigration. wish it: “Keep it under wraps! Don’t tell the people and The European Union costs the United Kingdom it will go away.” £2,000 for each man, woman and child, according to the Taxpayers’Alliance, and the new, unacceptable proposals Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): On the for enlargement involve countries that are sometimes point about the establishment, would it not be best to neither appropriate allies nor intrinsically democratic. give back to the people the choice of whether sovereignty The European Union also affects foreign policy and should be taken away from this place, by having a defence. Only a few months ago one of the world’s referendum on whether we should stay in the EU on the leading strategists, George Friedman of the STRATFOR same day as a general election? foundation, described in a book the unsustainable assertions of success of the European Union that the European Mr. Cash: I have made my position clear repeatedly— elite and their fellow travellers claim as being “in benign probably about 10 times in debates on various Bills over chaos”. He describes the European Union as a the past 15 or 20 years. I believe that there should be a “schizophrenic entity”, just as I have often done. He referendum, as I indicated in the debate on the Maastricht said, as I often have, that “Germany’s position is referendum all those years ago. Indeed, when my Bill on unpredictable” and that it parliamentary sovereignty is published tomorrow, Members “will be engaged in traditional power politics” will see in it references to a referendum on parliamentary with an ambivalent relationship with Russia. Russia is sovereignty, because parliamentary sovereignty involves also important to us as a nation because of our problems the notion of an Act of Parliament to authorise a with energy security and its grip on gas supplies, as we referendum. discussed in the European Scrutiny Committee today and debated on the Floor of the House this afternoon. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I might not The instability in Europe as a whole affects our share all the hon. Gentleman’s analysis, but I certainly sovereignty. We are so bound into European integration share the belief that our parliamentary sovereignty is that a breakdown, with the intrinsic instabilities in the being completely undermined by the EU. There might eurozone that were identified by Ralph Atkins in an not be a referendum at the time of the general election, 813 Sovereignty of Parliament13 JANUARY 2010 Sovereignty of Parliament 814 but the Government are committing themselves to a Mr. Cash: I am delighted to confirm that I believe referendum on electoral reform. Might that be an and hope that that will be case. I should mention, opportunity for a further referendum? however, that as long ago as 1986, I proposed a supremacy of Parliament amendment to the Single European Act, Mr. Cash: I would be delighted if the Bill proposing which included the words: the referendum on electoral reform included a long title so vague as to enable us to get a referendum in on the “Nothing in this Act shall derogate from the Sovereignty of the other matters too. In constitutional terms, it is ludicrous United Kingdom Parliament.” for us to have a series of referendums on matters such as Had that amendment been accepted by the then Speaker those just referred to, but not on the central question and voted through, when we had a substantial majority lying at the heart of these issues about, which is who in the House, it would have retained for this country a governs us and how. veto over the working time directive, as well as over It is all too boring or exacting for the establishment many other examples of damaging legislation under and others, including some parts of the media, to that Act, including recent legislation relating to the examine the question of what lies at the heart of undermining of the City of London. That issue will parliamentary sovereignty, particularly when we can become ever more apparent when the full implications watch Ant or Dec or “The X Factor” although our of the European Commission’s proposals for the financial democracy is on the line. Parliamentary sovereignty is regulation of the banks and financial services within the elephant in the room, but not even the room can be the jurisdiction of the European Court become entrenched. mentioned if it has the word “Europe” on its portal. Those proposals will effectively be unamendable without Ignoring parliamentary sovereignty, the freedom of choice the kind of proposals that I am putting forward for the and the democracy hat it represents is like discussing defence of the sovereignty of the United Kingdom religion without reference to the Bible or the Koran. Parliament. No one has the right to ignore this issue, because it affects every person in this country. It is not settled Indeed, in 1986 I was even refused the right to move policy and it cannot be laid to rest. It affects the voter in my amendment. On three more recent occasions, however, every way. It affects the rule of law, the role of the not only have the House authorities, with advice, facilitated judiciary and that of the civil service, and only in the moving of my supremacy of Parliament Parliament can it be resolved. The Government’s position, amendments—in relation to the then Legislative and in contrast to that of the Conservative party, is one of Regulatory Reform Bill in 2006 and, shortly afterwards, the abandonment of the fundamental truths of that the Constitutional Reform Bill and other constitutional statement. The Government have duped the British matters—but on those occasions my right hon. Friend people into dangerous waters, and that betrayal is the Member for Witney gave instructions to the Whips represented by the signing and enactment of the Lisbon for my amendments to be endorsed by the party as a treaty. Indeed, a few years ago I and the then Foreign whole following the debate, overriding the Government’s Secretary, now the Justice Secretary, exchanged questions implementation of respective European legislation, and for more than six months about whether Parliament asked me whether our Whips could put forward Tellers and an Act of Parliament could prevail over the prerogative. to support my proposals. Eventually he had to climb down. On every occasion, the Government have opposed I remind the House that, for the first time in recent those amendments, including by specifically voting against memory, the Conservative party has been, to all intents my sovereignty of Parliament amendments in respect of and purposes, united in supporting parliamentary the Lisbon treaty, which is a policy that is nothing short democracy and sovereignty, rejecting not only the of appeasement. I therefore applaud the proposals made constitutional treaty but its terrible twin, the Lisbon by my right hon. Friend for a sovereignty Bill, as does treaty. Furthermore, my right hon. Friend the Member the whole Conservative party. However, the question for Witney (Mr. Cameron) has reaffirmed my continuous remains how far such a sovereignty Bill would extend. call, made for more than a decade, for an association of The proposals and issues that I will now address will nation states, which would be founded on the principle certainly need to be encompassed by any such proposals of parliamentary sovereignty.He has proposed a sovereignty of my own which I know will have the backing of a Bill in that framework, because he recognises the danger substantial majority of the Conservative party in Parliament that we are in. I have addressed the exact framework of and elsewhere, and, to judge from recent opinion polls, a Bill for that purpose in my United Kingdom well over 70 per cent. of the electorate. Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill, to be published tomorrow, which will be on the Order Paper and among the papers I am putting forward a proposal based on the rejection delivered to all hon. Members. My Bill has been considered of European government, albeit with co-operation on and vetted by pre-eminent constitutional authorities European trade, and on endorsing global trade and and its text is encompassed on but one sheet of a political co-operation and democracy in our national parliamentary page, in a mere five short clauses. interest, with a reversion to an association of nation states in Europe, which is what I believe the people of Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I am grateful this country really want. Indeed, the original White to my hon. Friend, who is being very generous in giving Paper that led to the European Communities Act 1972 way. Is not tonight an example of the Conservative clearly stated that we had to retain the veto as part of party speaking with one voice on Europe, with my hon. our parliamentary sovereignty, in order to sustain the Friend rowing behind the Leader of the Opposition by vital national interests of the voters of the United bringing forward a proposal similar to what will be Kingdom, and not only for our sake, but brought forward by the Conservative party in the next “to preserve the very fabric of the European Community itself.” Government? 815 Sovereignty of Parliament13 JANUARY 2010 Sovereignty of Parliament 816

[Mr. Cash] puny assertions until the enactment of the Lisbon treaty, which the Government have treacherously driven through. Why so? Simply because there is no greater vital That treaty includes declaration 19, which gives guidance interest than freedom of choice at the ballot box in to our courts and others and which asserts and affirms every part of the European Community—now the the case law of the European Court. That case law European Union. That has been severely undermined involves the Court asserting its jurisdiction over not by successive treaties and by this Government’s betrayal only our laws and law-making, but our constitution, in signing and enacting the consolidating Lisbon Treaty, which belongs to the British people, the voters at the which encompasses all the treaties. Now is the time, in ballot boxes and no one else. our manifesto, to reassert and reaffirm the full measure It would be irresponsible to ignore this issue, and it of parliamentary sovereignty of the United Kingdom would be equally irresponsible to allow the current state in line with our constitutional law and practice. We of affairs and the assertions of the European Court and want not theology but practicality; we want not EU the Lisbon treaty to be embedded by the effluxion of bureaucracy but UK democracy. It is not anti-European time. We should recall that other seminal constitutional to be in favour of democracy. change, in the beneficial direction of greater democracy, What are the constitutional issues that we have to became embedded as this Parliament evolved through address? In particular, they are the assertion of European the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries as we moved towards Union institutions, including the European Commission greater democracy. It is unforgivable to allow the current and the European Court, that they have ultimate jurisdiction undermining of our parliamentary sovereignty, away over our law-making, our laws and, specifically and from our hard-won democracy, not to mention the dangerously, our constitution and our Parliament. Other necessity for serial radical reform of the procedures of countries, too, are concerned about those assertions, the House. The gutting and guillotining of Bills and the but we in the mother of Parliaments have a leadership Government’s refusal to devote proper time for Bills to role to play in defending the rights of our voters to be debated undermines our parliamentary sovereignty. continue their freedom to make their choice at the I regret to have to say that I had to describe our ballot box without let or hindrance. That must be Parliament in my evidence to the Wright Committee as the case irrespective of majority voting, irrespective of “a sham” for that reason. I would add to those issues the lethal power of the former so-called co-decision the way in which we have been invaded by these assertions procedure in the European Parliament—now ominously from the European institutions. described as the “ordinary legislative procedure”—and We need to restore our democracy, and reasserting irrespective of the assertions of the European Court of parliamentary sovereignty is essential in that cause. To Justice. That is no less of an issue than when we had to prevent discussion in the media or the BBC would be, resist invasions of another kind that threatened to and is, an outrage, and it would be irresponsible merely undermine our sovereignty and our nationhood in the to endorse the principle of sovereignty without dealing dark days of the 1930s and 1940s. with the problem in its entirety. For if we were merely to Until 1972 we were moving towards greater democracy, fill half the cup of sovereignty by enacting an inadequate but we have been moving away from it since then, and sovereignty Bill in our response to the European integration we must redress the balance in terms of our parliamentary process, the Lisbon treaty and the assertions of the sovereignty now, in the coming general election. Our European Court, we would be handing an opportunity constitutional case law is crystal clear. The judgments to our own courts, including the Supreme Court, in the of Lord Denning in MacCarthys v. Smith, Lord Diplock interpretation of any present or future legislation, to in Garland v. British Rail and Lord Laws in the Metric endorse the assertions of the European Court over our Martyrs cases all correctly assert the tradition and constitution and law-making in the light of the declaration history of this country for centuries—certainly since of the primacy of European law set out in declaration the Reform Acts of the mid-19th century, when modern 19 in an annex to the Lisbon treaty. democracy was born—that the latest Westminster We must explicitly and expressly restrain our judiciary enactment, clearly and expressly stated, prevails against from having any opportunity of so interpreting European any past enactments inconsistent with it or overriding legislation and applying the constitutional assertions of it, including those that are derived from the implementation the European Court, precisely so that we may explicitly of the European Communities Act 1972. That is specifically preserve our own parliamentary sovereignty and with it the case when the words the rights of the British people, who have fought and “notwithstanding the European Communities Act 1972” died over many generations, with blood and treasure. This is their Parliament, not our Parliament, and we not are placed in the inner bailey of a Westminster enactment. only have no right to take away their heritage, but we My right hon. Friend the Member for Witney has have a duty to preserve it. made it clear that he regards the repatriation of economic We need, in the words of John of Gaunt, “a moat competitiveness as an imperative requirement, just as defensive” to the invasion of this House. As John of Jefferson rightly insisted on states’ rights. My right hon. Gaunt clearly stated— Friend stated only this week that his watchword is “responsibility”. That approach has lain at the heart of The Minister for Europe (): This is my efforts of the past 25 years to insist upon parliamentary Shakespeare. sovereignty as the fulcrum of our representative government. The problem is now acute, because, although the Mr. Cash: As Shakespeare said, using the words of European Court of Justice has asserted its claims for John of Gaunt, we must defend more than 40 years in the cases of Handelsgesellschaft, “This land of such dear souls, this dear, dear land, Van Gend en Loos and Costa v. ENEL, those were but Dear for her reputation through the world”, 817 Sovereignty of Parliament13 JANUARY 2010 Sovereignty of Parliament 818 which, as he put it, “is now leased out”—and, I say, Chris Bryant rose— with this latest treaty in mind, “is now bound in with shame, Mr. Cash rose— With inky blots, and rotten parchment bonds”. As he continued: Chris Bryant: And I am still not giving way, because I want to answer some of the hon. Gentleman’s points. “That England, that was wont to conquer others, He referred to his Bill, which he titles the United Hath made a shameful conquest of itself”— Kingdom Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill, but he with the betrayal of our people by this Government fundamentally misunderstands the history of this House over the Lisbon treaty. That is why we must reaffirm and our constitutional settlement. He is simply wrong: and reassert our parliamentary sovereignty and successfully Parliament is sovereign; there is absolutely no need to defend ourselves yet again, as we have so often over assert its sovereignty. We agreed, when we voted through centuries past. the European Communities Act in 1972, that we wanted to join the Community and, eventually, the European 7.57 pm Union. If this House chose to do so, it could decide to The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): It is always a repeal the 1972 Act; the hon. Gentleman is fully aware great delight to hear the hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash). of that. For that matter, the Lisbon treaty allows member I heard him referred to the other day as a pillar of the states to withdraw from the EU. We have absolute community and a pillar of Parliament, but I am afraid sovereignty. Indeed, the then Solicitor-General made it that his speech this evening has shown that he is rather absolutely clear by saying: more an ornamental than a load-bearing pillar. As to “It would make a nonsense of the necessity for Community his lengthy reference to John of Gaunt, the hon. Gentleman law to have the same effect in every member State if the United Kingdom, any more than any other member State, could choose seemed to think that these were the words of John of by national law to override what it did not like. The principle of Gaunt himself, but they were written by William Community law having precedence throughout the Community is Shakespeare in “Richard II”. Richard II, of course, was one that operates for the mutual benefit of all member States”.— removed by Parliament on the instruction of Henry [Official Report, 13 June 1972; Vol. 838, c. 1317.] Bolingbroke; and Richard II paid for the refurbishing That is not a quotation from the Solicitor-General of Westminster Hall so that the hammer-beam ceiling today; it is from the Solicitor-General of 1972, the could be inserted. Conservative Lord Howe of Aberavon, who made an Notwithstanding all that, the hon. Gentleman has extremely good point. The hon. Member for Stone says advanced his argument many times, and I find that that he has to bring forward his own parliamentary trying to grasp his argument is rather like trying to sovereignty Bill, and I suggest that that is because he grasp hold of a lizard, as all we end up with is a little bit does not trust the right hon. Member for Witney of the lizard’s tail. The hon. Gentleman has nevertheless (Mr. Cameron). done us—certainly the Government—a very great favour today because he has shown us how distrustful he is of Mr. Cash: May I just say, very quickly, that I have his own Front-Bench team. He has shown us precisely given three examples whereby my right hon. Friend has that he does not trust a word that the “smokescreen supported my supremacy or sovereignty of Parliament master general” who leads his party has said about a amendments? That is the proof of the pudding. sovereignty Bill. He does not believe that the parliamentary sovereignty Bill his leader has suggested should be Chris Bryant: I think that the pudding has yet to be brought forward will meet what the hon. Gentleman eaten—or, indeed, presented, because the truth is that believes is the problem. [Interruption.] I see that the the right hon. Gentleman said that he would hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone) agrees “introduce a new law, in the form of a United Kingdom Sovereignty with the hon. Gentleman, so he does not trust the Bill, to make it clear that ultimate authority stays in this country, leader of the Conservative party either. in our Parliament.” He went on to say that his idea Mr. Bone: The Minister is making this up. It is pure tosh and fiction. “is not about Westminster striking down individual items of EU legislation…It is about an assurance that the final word on our laws is here in Britain.” Chris Bryant: The hon. Member for Stone has just exemplified, yet again, from his naughty boy corner at But that is precisely the opposite of what the hon. the back of the Chamber, precisely what the situation Gentleman has called for this evening. He does want the would be like if there were a Conservative Government—a UK to be able to strike down individual EU laws, does Conservative Government who were completely and he not? [Interruption.] Yes, he does. Of course he does. utterly in hock to the ludicrous naughty boys at the back of the Chamber, who have been arguing for many Mr. Cash: I want to make sure that the European years— Court of Justice and our Supreme Court do not, as in the Factortame case, strike down Acts that are passed Mr. Cash: Will the Minister give way? by the democratic wish of the voters of this country.

Chris Bryant: If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, I Chris Bryant: And if the courts do not, he wants us to shall not give way, because I have—[Interruption.] The be able to strike down European laws. That is precisely hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.] my point. Consequently, the argument that he makes is completely fallacious, and, for that matter, so is the Mr. Speaker: Order. At the moment it is very clear argument that his party leader makes. It is made not that the Minister is not giving way. deliberately but inadvertently to mislead the country. It 819 Sovereignty of Parliament13 JANUARY 2010 Sovereignty of Parliament 820

[Chris Bryant] Chris Bryant: I am very grateful: the hon. Gentleman has made it absolutely clear that he would vote for us to is a smokescreen, because it tries to pretend that, by leave the European Union. some kind of assertion, there will be no danger to Britain. However, I should argue that if what the hon. Mr. Cash: I did not say that. Gentleman says—that he wants to be able to strike down European laws and prevent the European Court Chris Bryant: But the hon. Gentleman just clarified of Justice from determining whether we have stood by his position! He made it absolutely clear. our treaty requirements—is true, he is effectively saying that it would be okay for the UK to step out of the European Union. That is the ineluctable direction in Mr. Cash: The Minister is really confused; it is which he is pushing—[Interruption.] Yes, of course: confused.com all over again. The plain fact is that a now he does agree that that is what he is arguing for. referendum would give the British people the opportunity to decide what kind of Europe they wanted to be a Mr. Cash: I said, “I never said it.” part of.

Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman has made it clear Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman cannot have it on many occasions that he would like a referendum on both ways. He either wants to be in the European Britain’s membership of the European Union, and that Union or he does not. He seems to have made it he would vote for us not to remain a member of the EU. absolutely clear: he wants a referendum so that he can Is that not the case? vote for us to leave the European Union, unless he has some clever plan completely to change— Mr. Cash: It is perfectly clear that I believe that we should have a referendum. It is also perfectly true that, given the functions of the European Union as currently 8.5 pm constructed, I would vote no to ensure that the British House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order people got what they really required. No. 9(7)). 237WH 13 JANUARY 2010 China 238WH

Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): My hon. Westminster Hall Friend is painting a full picture of what China is today. Of course, it was not always so. At times China was clearly a closed society, and British businesses did not Wednesday 13 January 2010 trade there as they do now. Will he pay tribute to the British businessmen who, with entrepreneurial wit and wisdom—some in the 48 Group and those known as the [CHRISTOPHER FRASER in the Chair] icebreakers—went into China and started trading with it in the early days when it was not fashionable to do so? China Tony Baldry: Those in the 48 Group are much to be commended, as are those in the China-Britain Business Motion made and Question proposed, That the sitting Council, who continue to work hard to promote trade be now adjourned.—[Helen Jones.] between the UK and China. This week it was announced that China is now the 9.30 am world’s largest exporter, with an economy on track to Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): Somewhere in my grow by 9.5 per cent. in 2010. If our economy was likely scrapbook is a photo of my hon. Friend the Member to grow anything like that we would all collectively be for Mid-Norfolk (Mr. Simpson), who is responding to singing the hallelujah chorus. But China’s growth is in this debate on behalf of the Official Opposition, me large part a testament to the fusing of foreign capital and a number of other members of the great and good, and Chinese hard work in that country. including Andrew Neil, outside NATO headquarters in During the next four decades the world will become a the early 1970s on a student study tour. My hair was different place. The future will be different from the somewhat longer and my hon. Friend’s moustache was past and anything other than a policy of fully engaging somewhat fuller, but otherwise we are fully recognisable. and seeking the best possible mutual understanding That demonstrates that we, and indeed all hon. Members with China is simply not an option. A part of the in this Chamber, grew up in a world of two superpowers— challenge for all of us in the UK will involve visualising the United States and the Soviet Union—although a world that will look different in 10, 20 or 30 years throughout the cold war the United States economy from now, particularly our relationship with China. was far more advanced than and twice as large as that Western dependency on Chinese products will grow, of the Soviet Union. especially as we need to keep interest rates down. The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 greatly An element of the challenge of our relationship with enhanced the pre-eminent position of the United States China is that, as a country, China is somewhat sui and, by implication, the west. Terms such as unipolarity generis, as one of our colleagues, George Walden, observed and phrases like “the end of history” sought to describe in his book, “China: A Wolf in the World?” I quote what appeared to be a unique situation. Those of us from certain books, Mr. Fraser, because I do not want living in the United Kingdom and Europe, whose nation to give the impression that the only person in the states had been the pre-eminent powers from the start Conservative party who reads books is my hon. Friend of the industrial revolution until the mid-20th century, the Member for Mid-Norfolk. I want it to be understood accepted as a given the west’s ability to shape global that some of the rest of us read books as well. history. Well, all of us are now going to have to adapt to [Interruption.] I should say to the Minister that that is a new reality, as are our children and succeeding generations. an in-joke. We are witnessing a significant change, which, although it is still in its early days, will transform the world: the The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): Not a very rise of China. good one. Global Insight, a US economics consultancy, expects Christopher Fraser (in the Chair): Order. China to overtake the United States as the world’s largest manufacturer by 2020. An article demonstrating Tony Baldry: In his excellent book, “China: A Wolf that in the Financial Times in May 2007 was entitled, in the World?”, George Walden, who was a young “US to lose role as world’s top manufacturer by 2020.” diplomat in Beijing for many years, wrote: Goldman Sachs estimates that by 2025 the United “Which other country with a billion plus population—a five States and China will have similar-sized economies, but thousand year old civilisation who from its own perspective has by 2050 China will be the largest economy, followed always seen itself as the centre of the world—which has been some way behind by America and India. Incidentally, catapulted from extreme left-wing totalitarianism to a headlong only two European countries are predicted to be in the rush to consumerism and the outward signs of capitalism in just top 10 by 2050: this country and Germany, in ninth and three decades—whilst at the same time maintaining a Communist 10th positions respectively. political structure”. China is a country where gross domestic product That quote demonstrates that China is a unique country. grew 30 per cent. from 2004 to 2006, investment since Understanding China will be one of the great challenges 2000 has tripled and exports have quadrupled. China of the 21st century. has getting on for a quarter of the world’s population. China sees itself as a civilisation state of understandable Last week it was announced that China has overtaken antiquity. We all see ourselves from our own perspective. the US to become the biggest car market in the world— Emperor Qianlong’s comments to George III’s petition more than 13.5 million vehicles were sold in China last are probably almost as relevant today: year—and, interestingly, for four out of every five Chinese “I have perused your memorial. The earnest terms in which it is customers that car is the first they have driven. couched reveal a respectful humility on your part, which is highly 239WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 240WH

[Tony Baldry] left its proxies to savage it in public…it was China’s representative who insisted that industrialised country targets, previously agreed praiseworthy…My capital is and centre about which all as an 80 per cent. cut by 2050, be taken out of the deal.” quarters of the globe revolve…I do not forget the lonely remoteness The suggestion is that the whole Copenhagen conference of your island, cut off from the world by intervening wastes of and the accord were effectively undermined and sabotaged sea…Our dynasty, swaying the myriad races of the globe, extends the same benevolence towards all.” by Chinese mendacity—that is how Lynas puts it. I suspect that quite a number in Beijing, in slightly I believe that it is unlikely that China deliberately different terms, still perceive us slightly in that way intended to ruin the Copenhagen conference, or that it today. wanted to be accused of systematically wrecking the accord. It is interesting that almost immediately after As Martin Jacques observes in his recent book, “When the conference, a senior member of the Chinese negotiating China Rules the World”, China team at Copenhagen was shifted. The media have been “still has almost the same borders that it acquired at the maximum speculating that that was punishment for the debacle of extent of the Qing empire in the late eighteenth century. The state the climate change talks. He Yafei, who was at the remains as pivotal in society and as sacrosanct as it was in forefront of the negotiations, was removed as Vice-Foreign imperial times. Confucius, its great architect, is in the process of Minister, and it is suggested that he was removed for experiencing a revival and his precepts still, in important measure, failing to ensure smooth relations between China, the inform the way China thinks and behaves.” US and Europe. He went on to say, perhaps more contentiously: In advance of what was clearly a major world conference, “The legitimacy of the Chinese state, profound and deeply why did China and the rest of the world not have better rooted, does not depend on an electoral mandate; indeed, even if established negotiating positions and work out where universal suffrage was to be introduced, the taproots of the state’s the red lines were going to be? There was the bizarre legitimacy would still lie in the country’s millennial foundations. situation of Barack Obama having to burst into the The Chinese state remains a highly competent institution, probably room on practically the last day of the conference, find superior to any other state-tradition in the world and likely to a seat, and help to guide the negotiations to the Copenhagen exercise a powerful influence on the rest of the world in the accord. I hope that the UK, those in the embassy in future.” Beijing and representatives of the European Union My concern, and the reason why I sought this debate, mission, are talking to their counterparts in Beijing to is that during the end of last year and the start of this seek to better understand whether China meant to year three things happened, which, in different ways, wreck the talks, or whether there was a tragic failure of show that China and this country need to make much understanding. If China did mean to wreck the talks, greater efforts to understand each other. None of us that is a serious matter. China takes on the rotating wants a situation in which we kowtow to China’s increasing presidency of the UN Security Council this month, and economic influence, and China will not listen if we give it cannot afford misunderstandings any more than we can. the impression of hectoring. Engagement must be on the basis of mutual respect, and we should endeavour to understand each other. Mr. Evans: I attended the Copenhagen conference for one of the days, although I was not privy to that In the case of the Copenhagen conference on climate particular meeting. Like my hon. Friend, I would be change, the bottom line was that China did not want a amazed if China had gone wilfully to try to sabotage bottom line. As one Danish official observed, “China the talks. Does my hon. Friend agree that in the past, doesn’t do numbers”. China was not even willing for Hu Jintao has said supportive things about wanting to developed countries to set out their own CO2 reduction tackle climate change, and that we must work closely targets. One can understand that China—the largest with other countries to ensure that China has nothing CO2 emitter in the world—still sees itself as a developing to fear from coming to an agreement about what action nation, and would be wary of any target that might be needs to be taken? Vast tracts of China are developing set. However, one is inclined to ask: where were the but are impoverished. China must have no fear of sherpas? Why had China not communicated its misgivings working with the west, so that we can reach an agreement much earlier, and how was it that others, such as ourselves that will not prevent the developing parts of China and our colleagues in the United States, had not picked from progressing into the 21st century. up on those concerns? Why was it left until the last two days of the conference? Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend uses an extremely good I was not at Copenhagen—I do not think that any phrase—we must convince China that it has nothing to hon. Members present were—but Mark Lynas, a writer fear. It must have nothing to fear from being part of the for , was attached to one of the delegations. international community, from moving towards more In an article written immediately after the events, when democratic processes or from opening up society. Today, matters were fresh in his mind, he observed: we have the bizarre situation that Google is threatening “The truth is this: China wrecked the talks, intentionally to pull out of China altogether. However, it is difficult humiliated Barack Obama, and insisted on an awful ‘deal’ so to see how the world’s largest exporter, and a country western leaders would walk away carrying the blame. How do I whose economy is growing exponentially, will manage if know this? Because I was in the room and saw it happen. China’s internet providers start shutting down services. There strategy was simple: block the open negotiations for two weeks, could be a collision between the concerns of the Chinese and then ensure that the closed-door deal made it look as if the west had failed the world’s poor once again. And sure enough, the Communist party and Government, who on the one aid agencies, civil society movements and environmental groups hand want to maintain party control, but on the other all took the bait… All very predictable, but the complete opposite hand want economic expansion. We must help China to of the truth...China gutted the deal behind the scenes, and then recognise that it has nothing to fear. 241WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 242WH

Something else that happened while the House was in as individuals and parliamentarians in this country recess was the conviction of Liu Xiaobo for supposedly regularly raise issues about human rights, it is not subverting state power. His trial lasted just two hours, because we wish to be antagonistic or hostile or to and resulted in an 11-year sentence of imprisonment for appear hectoring, but because we believe that we have doing no more than seeking to promote democracy. He an innate duty as world citizens to seek to defend simply said that China should have a more democratic human rights irrespective of borders. system—something that many people have said. Lastly, there was the case of Akmal Shaikh, which Zhao Ziyang was the general secretary of the Chinese resulted in the Prime Minister saying that he was “appalled” Communist party at the time of the Tiananmen square and a spokesperson for the Chinese Government retorting: massacre. As hon. Members will recall, he intervened “We urge the British side to mend its errors and avoid damaging with the students and tried to get the demonstration China-British relations.” called off. For his pains, he was sacked as general I cannot recall when the Prime Minister and Ministers secretary, and spent the rest of his life under house were exhorted by an official spokesperson of the Chinese arrest. He managed to record his memoirs on a children’s Government to “mend their errors”. That is going back tape recorder, and after he died, what was in effect his almost to the days of the cultural revolution. autobiography was discovered and published. Clearly, the case of Akmal Shaikh was very sad. It is Zhao Ziyang quotes his predecessor, Hu Yaobang, difficult to know whether Akmal Shaikh was so mentally general secretary until 1987, who stated: ill as to be unfit to plead, but it was very sad that the “In the history of mankind, in the struggle of the newly Chinese authorities did not feel able to spend sufficient emerged bourgeoisie and the working class against feudal dictatorship, time making those inquiries. It is fair to say that the the formation of the ideas of democracy, freedom, equality, and House is now collectively opposed to the death penalty fraternity greatly liberated the human spirit. The most important anywhere in the world. lessons learned during the development of socialism were: first, neglecting development of the economy, and second, failing to There seems to have been a breakdown of build real democratic politics.” communication between us and the Chinese Government. Therefore, two successive general secretaries of the Chinese There must have been, because the fact that the Prime Communist party recognised that it will be difficult to Minister used a word such as “appalled” about the build China without having some regard to enhancing action of the Chinese Government and that the Chinese democracy. It is tragic that someone who did no more Government responded with a phrase such as “mend than promote Charter 08, which calls for a constitution our errors” suggests that there had clearly been an guaranteeing human rights, should be serving 11 years expectation on the part of our embassy in Beijing and of imprisonment. the Government and the Foreign Office that pleas of mitigation on behalf of Akmal Shaikh would succeed. That is not an isolated case. Last July, the Chinese On the part of the Chinese Government, there was Government suddenly detained the famous lawyer Dr. Xu clearly frustration that they were being misunderstood Zhiyong, who is an activist renowned for his work on and it looked as though we were trying to interfere behalf of China’s most disadvantaged, and for his publicly in their administration of justice. The point I commitment to advancing the rule of law in China. He am making is that we both need to make far better is not an extremist; he is a mainstream lawyer. He had a attempts to understand each other and what we are clear record of support for incremental reform in his really saying to each other, so that we do not end up litigation, which was aimed at the enforcement of guarantees with a public spat of that kind. It was hardly a good already enumerated in the Chinese constitution, and he way to end one decade of Anglo-Chinese relationships had won a seat on his local people’s congress in a and start another. district of Beijing. However, he was detained on what clearly, as I think everyone recognised, were somewhat Of course, there is an enormous amount for us to trumped-up charges in respect of “suspicion of evading celebrate with China. As my hon. Friend the Member taxes”. for Ribble Valley (Mr. Evans) said, we increasingly see trade expanding between the UK and China, which is Last year’s Amnesty International report on China very good news. This year, we shall have the Shanghai makes dismal reading. It states: expo. I understand that the UK national day at the “Individuals who peacefully exercised their rights to freedom Shanghai expo is 8 September 2010—that is 8.9.10, of expression, assembly and association remained at high risk of which must be extremely good feng shui. We are about harassment, house arrest, arbitrary detention, and torture and to start the year of the tiger. We are delighted to see ever other ill-treatment. Family members of human rights activists, increasing numbers of Chinese students coming to the including children, were increasingly targeted by the authorities, including being subjected to long-term house arrest and harassment United Kingdom, which is testament to China’s belief by security forces. Lawyers who took on sensitive cases were also in education and the belief that students will receive a at risk; several had their licences suspended, and others lost their good education in the United Kingdom. That is also to jobs. Some lawyers were specifically warned by the authorities not be celebrated. Considerable numbers of Chinese tourists to take on sensitive cases”. come to the UK. Indeed, the largest single destination The reality is that the conviction and extremely harsh for Chinese tourists in the UK is Bicester Village in my sentencing of Liu Xiaobo marks a further severe restriction constituency—I exhort any officials in the Foreign Office on the scope of freedom of expression in China. It is a who have not yet been to Bicester Village to ensure that system that still massively restricts freedom of opinion the Minister visits it. and is very suspicious of anyone who organises, but just as we must seek to understand China and the Chinese Mr. Evans: I met a group of young people from position, so too must they understand that, for us, China who came to the House when visiting the United human rights are universal. That is the whole point Kingdom. They met representatives of the British Youth about the universal declaration of human rights. If we Council, of which I am an honorary president. Does 243WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 244WH

[Mr. Evans] the dollars that are in Beijing and Shanghai, but China will say, “Do you know what? We don’t like your my hon. Friend believe that the bonds can be cemented banking systems. We don’t like your IMF and World most effectively by young people from China visiting Bank. We’ll set up our own system.” We should not the United Kingdom and vice versa? When the young think that they will not do that. people I referred to were talking together in the Jubilee One of the big issues that we misunderstand is that Room, not far from this Chamber, one could tell that the Chinese—much like Israel—do not need the western the interests of the young people from both countries world as much as the western world thinks that it needs were very much in common. them. If the Foreign Office misunderstands that, the Tony Baldry: Of course. That is absolutely right. My consequences will be very serious. One way in which we daughter was fortunate enough to learn Mandarin at could be more proactive is by saying that although it school and spent a large part of her gap year in Beijing, might have been right in 1945 for the World Bank, the which substantially enhanced her insight into China IMF and the United Nations to be in Washington and and the younger generation of Chinese citizens. Young New York, it is not right today. One thing that we could people from the two countries communicate at a perfectly do is move one of those organisations to China. If good level, and that is all good strengthening stuff. China is to be the world’s leading economic power by 2020, it is incumbent on us to help it with its political We must all accept that in the 21st century we live in a understanding of the world, and moving an international world where China is becoming an increasingly powerful organisation there will move Chinese diplomacy on nation. It is a civilisation state. It is increasingly powerful light years. economically and in terms of global politics. It therefore behoves both the Chinese and ourselves to understand I make that point in the light of discussions about much better what the other is saying. It is not for us to Google last night and this morning. When Google went tell China what form of democracy—what form of into China, it agreed to censorship rules that went government—it should have. I hope that China would against America’s first amendment, which is a completely see that it is in its own interest to have the greatest back-to-front philosophy for Google’s owners to adopt, possible access to information and that censorship is given where they come from, their background and the eventually self-defeating. I hope that China will come to fact that the company’s chief executive is a Republican. realise sooner rather than later that bearing down on In any case, Baidu, the Chinese search engine, is much individuals’ human rights is also self-defeating because bigger in China than Google, so perhaps this is not ultimately, as we have seen in the Soviet bloc and about the number of attacks on Google. After all, elsewhere, the human spirit will eventually overcome Google is the greatest technology company in the world such restrictions. and should be able to handle such attacks, which happen However, it behoves us to make every effort better to to every company. I think that there are between 5,000 understand China’s position and it behoves China to and 10,000 a day—I would love to see the figures—but seek to understand our position. That is also important that, in a sense, is an aside. in ensuring that the Foreign Office and the Treasury On Akmal Shaikh, the real issue was that the trial recognise that the Foreign Office must have the resources lasted for just half a day. In relation to China’s human necessary to ensure that the embassy in Beijing and rights and the style of its legal system, we are asking the consulates elsewhere can have the resource to communicate Chinese whether such trials, which create tension between with their opposite numbers, and that we have information countries, could be open not only to the Chinese public, and decent informed discussion with the Chinese. Otherwise, but to non-Chinese, so that we can see that justice is we shall have future tragedies of failed international done. That is the crux of the issue in such cases. conferences such as Copenhagen, and the world—the I turn now to my own thoughts about China. I place future of civilisation—simply cannot afford other failed on record my thanks to the Industry and Parliament Copenhagens. Trust, which took me to Shanghai in 2008. In September last year, I also went on an amazing visit to Beijing with 9.59 am the all-party group on China. We made the 25-hour Derek Wyatt (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Lab): I train journey to Tibet, where I learned a good deal congratulate the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) more about Tibet. Those who have not understood on introducing what is yet another debate about China. what is going on in China should consider the fact that It always grieves me that these debates have to be in Russia and Canada, where the temperature can be Westminster Hall. Yesterday we had a debate about the minus 20° C, have had trains for considerably longer Goldstone report—a really critical debate about Palestine. than China has. However, although the temperature on Where was it? It was in Westminster Hall. There were so the railway that we used is sometimes minus 35° C—it many hon. Members here that not everyone could be goes up to 15,000 feet—the service has not missed a called to speak. I ask that the Government sometimes single day, while the services in Canada and Russia both rethink their priorities on foreign affairs. have. In other words, the technology in China is the Let me make a couple of points in response to the finest in the world, and we misunderstand how fast hon. Gentleman’s speech, much of which I agree with. things are progressing. He did not say much about the World Bank or the To give another example, more university papers International Monetary Fund, but we need to move were published in China in the past year than in the faster on China’s membership of both bodies. After all, whole British university system. If we use such figures Belgium and Luxembourg have more votes than China for university research to judge universities, China is on both, and we know their GDP is much bigger than already ahead of us. The pace of change is substantial, China’s—[Laughter.] If we do not move faster, the time but that change is not just economic; it is fundamental will come when America and the rest of the world want and it is taking place at every level. 245WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 246WH

In addition to those two visits, I have been to Hong are talking about universal rights, and we should stand Kong, where I was brought up as a child. Although I up for them. He mentioned Russia, but I could also am not writing my autobiography, I am working on a point out how Poland changed because of one person. major work called “The Foreign Office: A Disaster These things happen, and we need think only of Abroad in the Twentieth Century”. Everywhere I have Solzhenitsyn and his books in Russia. The individual looked, the Foreign Office has been pretty disastrous. matters, and universal rights are just that—universal. We got the middle east, Africa and India wrong, and if The issue that concerns me most, however, is Tibet. we are not careful we will get China wrong, too. That is Lords Steel and Alton have put forward some rather partly because the Foreign Office is independent inside clever ideas about how to cope with Lhasa and the Whitehall. If we are to change in the 21st century and Dalai Lama. If the Dalai Lama dies before the issues of hang on to the title of “Great Britain”, the Foreign Lhasa and Tibet are resolved, he will die a hero, which Office will have to grow up and come into the system will cause even more problems for the Chinese. Italy that exists in this country. reached a solution on a similar issue when the Catholic I say that because I have spent a huge part of my life Church was given independence within the state. Lord abroad and visited many places. I was a member of the Alton has proposed that the small part of Lhasa where African National Congress. I care enormously about the two main temples are situated should be the equivalent how Britain is perceived abroad. In that respect, I have of the Vatican for the Buddhist faith. I ask the Government spoken to our new ambassador in Beijing. As I said in to start making representations about resolving the Shanghai, the quality of our people under ambassadorship issue, which will fester if we do not resolve it. in China—I will not say that I am deeply distressed We had discussions in Beijing, and I should mention about it, because that is the wrong word—needs a the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth fundamental rethink. How can it be right that we have Office, the hon. Member for Bury, South (Mr. Lewis), fewer people in the largest country in the world than we who he is not here today, although he is absent for good do in America? We need to reshape our thinking; we reason. In the Northern Ireland context the Americans need more consulates in China than in Europe and always talked to both sides; in the Sri Lankan Tamil America. We have said that many times before in this context Archbishop Tutu was talking in Dubai; in the place, but nothing actually changes. Palestinian and Israeli context the Norwegians were In that respect, the issue of Copenhagen is interesting. talking for nine months, without anyone knowing. There The hon. Member for Banbury asked why we had not are ways of coming to resolutions. I ask the Minister to picked up the feelers and realised how China felt about ponder whether President Clinton and former Prime Copenhagen. Why did we not do that? Is our regime in Minister Blair could not be asked to go to Beijing to Beijing big enough? Is it intelligent enough? Did we not talk through the matter, given the middle east and meet the Americans and other Europeans in Beijing to Northern Ireland peace talks in which they were involved. discuss China? Did we never have a discussion in Beijing, When I raised that in Beijing, the official view of the with our opposition, about Copenhagen? Where were Chinese Communist party officials was that it would be we? Why was the issue allowed to fester? What has a sign of weakness to involve a third party in their changed? We have not had that debate here. We have problem. I said that it was a sign of maturity in a not asked how China went to Copenhagen without our growing power if it asked an outsider for help. After all, having used all the soft diplomacy skills that we are those meetings are held in deep confidence. I said it supposed to have. Perhaps the Minister can enlighten us would be seen as a strength. I think that we are between on what happened. two positions: China says Tibet is theirs, and we say it is On Tibet, I have written to the Speaker, and I have theirs, but that it belongs to the rest of the world too. not yet had an answer, although my letter was sent in The hon. Member for Banbury mentioned Expo 2010. October. We fundamentally changed our policy on Tibet, In some ways, hard diplomacy failed in the last part of as a result not of a debate or a vote in the House, but of the 20th century.We need only look at Iraq and Afghanistan a statement. That is not how a democratic Government to see that. Even if we were to win in Afghanistan, go about changing policy: if we want to change policy, which seems highly unlikely, what have we left, and how we have a debate so that those who do not feel comfortable much damage has been done in the region? In the same have a chance to put their feelings on the record. In way, America went into Vietnam. Macmillan’s advice future, I hope that we will not change policy on any part was by all means to go in, but to remember that we had of foreign affairs as a result of just a statement. I say the same situation in the Sudan; it cost us £1 million a that irrespective of which party forms the next Government. week and in 1920 we gave it back. He saw that that was We have talked about the economic power that China exactly what would happen in Vietnam. What will happen will enjoy by 2020. I have also said that we are pretty in Afghanistan? Exactly the same. We will have spent under-represented in our foreign embassies and consulates millions of pounds protecting something that, in the in China. Now, however, I want to come to the issue end, will go back to what it was. That is the history of that is really gnawing at me following my trip to Tibet. Afghanistan. On her first official visit after she was nominated, My point is that in the 21st century hard diplomacy Hillary Clinton said that she and America were should be secondary to soft diplomacy. What we have downgrading—she did not quite put it like that, but the not understood about Joseph Nye’s work—and I am meaning was clear—America’s resolve on human rights pleased that the British Council has invited him here in China. That approach is wrong, but it has washed next Wednesday for a major lecture; after all, he wrote over the rest of the western world. People are thinking, “Soft Power” in 1994—is that we have astonishingly “Okay. If that’s America’s attitude because they need good soft power people working for us. They are perhaps the trade, maybe we’ll follow suit.” That is a very the best in the world: BBC radio and television overseas, dangerous way to go. As the hon. Gentleman said, we the British Council and the Open university. The British 247WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 248WH

[Derek Wyatt] that China would eventually begin to see the error of its ways and would think and operate according to the Museum is advising museum staff in Beijing. It is in tenets of the west. That is not going to happen. It is Shanghai and has a major exhibition there and a major time we recognised that and saw the need to form a new part of our Expo exhibition. The British Council is relationship and dialogue with China. everywhere. However, we ask both those bodies to do There was an excellent article in The Guardian yesterday more and more for less and less. We have not produced—but by Simon Tisdall, and I urge hon. Members who have I should love the Foreign Office to publish it—a strategy not read it to do so, because he sets out how relationships for soft power in the world. We should build on the with China are turning chilly. There is a huge risk that three British bodies that I have mentioned, which are we shall expect China to work on the same basis of outstanding in the world—and we have many others—to compromise and consensus on which the west has for so create the best diplomacy, which is soft diplomacy. long operated, and that we shall fail to see that China I want to conclude with a few words about the does not recognise the need to work on that basis. My Chinese Ambassador Madam Fu Ying, who is leaving hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey shortly. I have got to know her incredibly well. She is by talked about Madam Fu Ying, and I endorse every some way the best ambassador that China has had in word he said about how she epitomises China’s use of the 12 years I have been in Parliament. I have even taken soft power. It is virtually impossible to pick a fight with her to Twickenham; show me a Chinese woman who her. She has charm and is calm, amusing and witty, but will say “Yes, I’ll come to Twickenham”—but then she has a core of absolute strength and an unbiddable went to watch rugby union in Australia, too, when she determination to have her own way. The velvet glove was there. She understands not just hard power but soft masks a solid, hard power. The fact is that she will power, and has been outstanding, even if we have had listen, nod and smile, but she will not move. That is our differences on Tibet and human rights. We shall what we need to understand. We need to develop a new miss her, and we wish her well. Other hon. Members relationship with China. want to speak, but I want to give the message to the There is a saying that “You never want a serious crisis Foreign Office to rethink its overall strategy on China. to go to waste”. We have had a crisis with Copenhagen; and we have had a crisis with the cancellation of the 10.13 am UK-China human rights dialogue. Let us use those crises, recognising that it is time for us to make a Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): It behoves strategic shift from the global dominance of the west. me too to thank the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony We must find new ways of accommodating the world Baldry) for securing the debate, which comes at a crucial that is emerging. time. I am humbled to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey (Derek Wyatt), Societies are inherently linked to their past, and who always speaks with such authority and wisdom. He China is no different. Imperial China depended upon a showed us the point we have reached—when we need to vastly powerful and infallible centre, as communist think and to re-examine our relationship with China. It China still does. In neither system have human rights, is imperative that we recognise that China has made a constitutional checks and balances or any form of strategic shift in the world, and that we must make that democracy figured prominently. shift too. China sees the execution of Akmal Shaikh as part of The hon. Member for Banbury said several times that its way of operating. It does not see the need to move the Chinese must understand that they have nothing to into a world of negotiation on human rights matters. fear. I would say it is we who must understand and it is There are times when we have to talk differently with we who have things to fear, if we do not recognise the China about the place it wants in the world. Part of the shift in relationships across the world because of the problem is that we in Europe are used to consensus. To new China, and its position in and view of the world. It become a member state of the European Union, there is is time for us to stop talking to China from the point of a set of rules that have to be complied with; those view of a parent-child relationship, and to move to an standards have to be met to be a member of the EU. To adult to adult relationship, in which rather than telling become a leading power in the United Nations, however, the Chinese things, we listen actively. I have all too often countries do not have to fit in with any rules. They can seen us go into meetings with the Chinese saying we are become leading members, powerful members, of the there to converse, when really we are there to tell. UN and still ignore human rights. They can ignore consensus. They can go their own way. Mr. Evans: One clear example of the change that has We are moving into a new world, which has a new taken place is China’s influence in Africa, which we level of sophistication in dialogue. I believe that the ignore at our peril. Its influence in countries where it Foreign Office can deal with that, but it is time to step has invested a lot of money, and where it is trading and up and time to grow. China is understandably very taking many of the raw resources that it needs to help confident about its recent success, but we need to understand its economy grow, will clearly have effects in the world how China works. Its leaders are effective technocrats; in the short and long term. they are managers, they are pragmatic. They are deliberately uncharismatic compared to some of their predecessors. Mrs. Moon: The hon. Gentleman is right. There has China has grown fast, and its leaders have been thrust been a further arrogance in our thinking. We have on to the world stage. assumed that we could allow China to move into Africa Foreign policy did not previously register high on the and that we could watch and almost tolerate its frequent Chinese Government’s agenda, which was to move its pillaging of natural resources there, particularly its economic development forward. Its global mission was destruction of rain forests and removal of trees, but to improve its economic position in the world. It has 249WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 250WH succeeded, and can now afford to grow its internal It is time to engage with China, telling it that it has markets and put less emphasis on its world markets. responsibilities and listening to the response in order to China therefore has less need to consider how it is try a new kind of dialogue. viewed by the west. Economically, it is extremely powerful. China is softening its borders with the spread of its It holds the world’s financial system in its hands. We own people—to Russia and Mongolia, and to central need to engage with that new China. Asia, Burma and Laos. I believe that its mantra of I have found a keenness to improve bilateral non-intervention will gradually soften, but we need to understanding between the two countries. The UK-China be in dialogue with China to ensure that it happens. We leadership forum of which I have been privileged to be must consult China on international issues, especially in part for the past few years, held its third meeting at relation to Iran, Darfur, Kosovo, Burma, the middle Ditchley park in September last year. The forum brings east and Africa. Let us have a new dialogue. together political figures and policy makers from both As the hon. Member for Banbury said, many Chinese sides to explore an understanding of our respective students come to this country every year and there is a positions on the key issues of the day. That form of huge opportunity to develop a mutual understanding. dialogue is immensely valuable, and I hope it will continue It is a way of forming a new relationship. Let us move and flourish. I hope that those from the top of both forward into that new relationship and take the Governments will find a new way of talking and opportunities to forge closer links with China on a new communicating to increase understanding on both sides. transnational agenda, which covers issues such as energy, It is no longer a case of explaining the west to China. the environment, climate change and overseas investment, China has to take the proactive step of explaining its in a way that respects Chinese interests. Let us find a views to the west and how it sees the relationship with new, safer world in which we have nothing to fear the west. because we have found a way of talking and understanding. China is realistic about Copenhagen. It has the greatest problem in the world on climate change. The pace of 10.30 am desertification in China has doubled over the past 20 years; Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): I congratulate 25 per cent. of the land area is already desert, and air the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) on securing pollution is prematurely killing 400,000 people a year. the debate. Three months ago, we had a debate in this The country is not unaware of the dangers and risks of Chamber on the implications of UK policy on relations climate change. between China and the west, which was called by the I said that China’s foreign policy is driven by its need hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster for economic development. It is also driven by an (Mr. Field). During the debate, we touched on economic appetite for oil. We need to work with China and talk and trade issues, security, human rights and Tibet. with China about a path for greater resource efficiency Rather than going back over those issues, I will try to and a low-carbon future. We need to support that with focus on developments since then. As China is a rising shared science and technology, finding new ways of superpower, it is important that we return to the subject solving the problem together. of China with some regularity because much has happened over the past three months. Questions have been asked about why we did not understand what China’s position would be at Copenhagen. As was mentioned by the hon. Member for Sittingbourne I suggest that it was the usual problem—that we were and Sheppey (Derek Wyatt), we have had the positive telling China. We were not listening; we were not being news that Google will no longer be censoring its search responsive or aware of what it was saying. The balance results in China. Indeed, the lack of media freedom was in the world has changed. It has moved from the G8 to an issue that we discussed during that last debate. The the G20. We need to be aware that China has an news from Google is very welcome to those of us who increasing level of support in the G20, and that the have been incredibly uncomfortable with Google’s balance is moving. capitulation to China’s demand for restriction of the media and control of what can be viewed on the internet. China has joined the World Trade Organisation and Such behaviour is in total opposition to the freedom of is a judicious member of the United Nations Security information that we have come to associate with the Council, but we need to be aware too of the Shanghai internet and, in some ways, to the very principles and co-operation agreement and its impact on China’s mantras that a company such as Google stands for, relationships with many other countries. That relationship particularly with its slogan, “Don’t be evil”. It will be is one in which countries do not interfere in each other’s interesting to see how China responds to Google’s move, affairs, do not set standards for behaviour and do not whether Google will be able to continue to operate in demand human rights. However, they offer mutual support, China and how the Chinese public, who are used to defence and trade. I do not suggest that it is a route that using Google, will react. We will follow developments we in the west should follow, but we need to understand on that front very carefully. the implications for relationships around the world, However, it has not all been such good news. The especially for countries that have joined the Shanghai three issues on which I should like to focus are the tragic co-operation agreement. execution of Akmal Shaikh, the Copenhagen conference It has been said that we need to consider our future in and the deterioration of the situation in Sudan. Afghanistan. It is something on which we have the Tragically, on 29 December, Akmal Shaikh was executed. opportunity for a new dialogue with China. Instability The death penalty itself is abhorrent, as we discussed in in China is seen as a high risk, and Afghanistan and a recent debate in this Chamber. The lack of due Pakistan could create huge problems for it. So far, process and the mental health problems of Akmal China has on the whole sat back and ignored that risk. Shaikh made his a particularly difficult case. 251WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 252WH

[Jo Swinson] is not just for the UK, because many other countries around the world had a huge stake in ensuring success The secrecy of the Chinese judicial system was also as well. None the less, we have to ask the questions and very evident. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office find the answers if we are to move forward and reach a was not told that the death penalty had been handed meaningful global deal. down until months after the sentence was passed. Clive On 5 January, the Climate Change Secretary told the Stafford Smith from Reprieve said: House: “Despite having flown to China to be with him, Shaikh’s “The conference was held up by disagreements over family were not told of his death until he was already apparently procedure…Those disputes about process meant that it was not buried in the frozen soil of Urumqi. Nobody told the family how until 3 am on Friday, the last day of a two-week conference, that or where he would be killed. No family member or independent substantive negotiations began on what became the Copenhagen observer was allowed to witness his death, view his body or verify accord.”—[Official Report, 5 January 2010; Vol. 503, c. 43.] his burial. We have only the word of a press release that he was even killed.” I wonder whether the procedural issues should have been resolved in the weeks before the conference. However, We can only imagine what it is like to be in the shoes of it is not clear whether there were actually procedural the family in such a situation. As I said, the death issues, or whether countries that did not want an agreement penalty in itself is abhorrent enough quite apart from put forward the procedural issues as a blocking move. If the lack of the proper process and dignity that should there truly were procedural issues, they should have go alongside any judicial decision. I understand that been resolved before the conference began. Akmal’s family have written to the Foreign Secretary to ask for an inquest into his death to be held in the UK, My hon. Friend the Member for North Southwark which could provide much needed closure to the and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) has said that just as grieving family, and I hope that the Government will the UN Security Council sits in permanent session, so, honour the request. too, should a UN climate council. The Climate Change Secretary has said that such an option should be considered, I understand that both the Prime Minister and the so I am interested to know whether the FCO will take Foreign Secretary made representations to the Chinese that suggestion to the UN. It would be interesting to calling for clemency. My hon. Friend the Member for know what strategy the FCO is adopting, given that we Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael), who followed are hoping for a global climate deal from the Bonn the case closely, exchanged correspondence with the conference in June. Government on it and concluded that the Government did everything they could for Akmal Shaikh. Given that I know from conversations with FCO officials in they were not successful, will the Minister tell us whether posts in various countries that climate change is not just he thinks that a different strategy could have yielded a a departmental priority written on a piece of paper, but different outcome so that we can avoid further tragedies? something to which individuals have a great deal of personal commitment. That is a huge asset that we must Turning to Copenhagen, I, like other hon. Members, use. Moreover, we must assess where our policy is not read the article by Mark Lynas and was shocked by the working, particularly in respect of the Copenhagen representations that were given. The image of our Prime conference. Minister, President Obama and Ban Ki-moon sitting in a room while a second-ranking Chinese official ran in Let me briefly touch on Sudan, particularly in relation and out with the political negotiation equivalent of, to the report that was released last week, “Rescuing the “Computer says no” just seems a ridiculous way to Peace in Southern Sudan”, by a coalition of non- conduct negotiations on one of the biggest threats that governmental organisations. The report described the the world faces. continuing violence in southern Sudan, with 2,500 people killed in 2009 and 350,000 fleeing their homes. National Two years ago, the Environmental Audit Committee elections are to be held in April and a referendum visited China as part of an investigation into the in 2011. international response to climate change. I was impressed on that visit by how seriously the Chinese were taking Christopher Fraser (in the Chair): Order. May I remind the issue, particularly with regard to carbon intensity the hon. Lady that the subject of the debate is UK reduction—if not absolute carbon reduction itself. Their relations with China, and we have limited time for the technological advances seemed to be far ahead of the two further speakers? game; the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey called them impressive. Therefore, the Chinese recognise the severe threat posed by climate change, and with a Jo Swinson: I am coming to the point that is relevant huge number of their population still living in poverty, to this debate but I thank you, Mr. Fraser, for that reliant on melt water from the Himalayas and facing the advice. risk of desertification and other such challenges, one Basically, I wanted to ask the Minister for his assessment would have expected a different response from them in of the attention the Chinese Government are paying to the international negotiations. Will the Minister tell us the situation in southern Sudan, given that China has what strategy the Government will adopt to bring China such important trade relations with that area and that back on track? Obviously, securing a transition to a China’s involvement is crucial to finding a global resolution low-carbon world is one of the FCO’s key priorities. to what is going on there, which could end up becoming Presumably, an investigation is under way into how a very dangerous situation. the problems at Copenhagen could have been averted. I appreciate the opportunity created by the hon. Other hon. Members have already asked how it was that Member for Banbury in securing this debate, which has we did not recognise the extent of the difficulties that allowed us to raise a set of issues relating to China, and China would pose. I appreciate that such an investigation I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response. 253WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 254WH

10.40 am Furthermore, China has gained access to resources in the world, which they believe is perfectly legitimate. The Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): It is a pleasure, Chinese would turn to us and say, “Well, after all”—I Mr. Fraser, to be under your chairmanship today. I too am using shorthand—“you westerners pillaged the resources congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury of the world from about the 16th century onwards. All (Tony Baldry) on introducing this very timely debate. we are doing is offering good trade relations with many As was said by the hon. Member for East developing countries, but we do not attach any form of Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), who speaks for the Liberal moral politics to that. We are not interested in relating Democrats, we were debating a similar subject in that to human rights in one form or another”. Westminster Hall on 13 October 2009—the implications for UK policy of relations between China and the west. I want to turn the debate around. It is not just a That debate had a somewhat broader remit and it was, question of the United Kingdom being—quite rightly— of course, introduced by my hon. Friend the Member sensitive to Chinese culture and history, and of our for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field). In trade and business relationships with China. The hon. passing, I want to say to the hon. Member for Sittingbourne Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey is absolutely and Sheppey (Derek Wyatt), who I do not think was right; the balance of power has changed in the world. able to attend the debate in October, that quite a bit of Once again, I do not think there is anybody who does it was about the economic and business aspects of the not accept that. The balance of power in the world has relationship between China and the west. changed not only because of the growth and power of China but because of the growth and power of many I do not intend to reprise what I said or to comment other countries, including India and Brazil. That complicates on things that were said by others during that debate. matters not just for us but for the Chinese, who I believe As far as this debate is concerned, the crucial point are driven by fears of instability. Those fears drive relates to the three specific issues that my hon. Friend China more than anything else. the Member for Banbury flagged up and which were important at the end of 2009 and the start of 2010. The As I was saying, it is not just a question of our being first issue was why the Copenhagen climate change sensitive. The Chinese will have to recognise that they discussions failed and who was to blame, if I can put it must take into account the policies and opinions of crudely.The second issue was the conviction and persecution many other countries. It will be increasingly difficult for of a number of dissidents in China; that is a continuing them to operate in a world at a very narrow economic issue, but it appears that there have been two or three level without realising that if they are to achieve membership high-profile cases recently. The third issue, which a of the World Bank and participate in many other things— number of hon. Members have already commented on, they are already finding it difficult enough in the United was the execution of Akmal Shaikh. Nations—they will have to take a position on certain The crucial point is whether those issues represent a things. They will have to be involved in the give and take blip in our relations with China. The Foreign Office of politics. called in Ambassador Fu Ying for an interview without What are we to do about that? First, we should mao-tai to express our displeasure at what had happened continue to say, very politely, to China that there are to Akmal Shaikh. There was then an incredibly critical certain issues that we regard as important, not only as verbal reply from the Chinese. Is that a blip or is there a parliamentarians but as a British Government and longer trend? Opposition, and that we will continue to raise those Having listened to the comments of a number of issues with the Chinese, not confrontationally but in a hon. Members, my personal view is that we have ended way that reflects our values and is not an insult to up having a rather simplistic debate. The idea that China. China has never been interested in foreign policy was mentioned. Foreign policy has always been subsumed Secondly, we must recognise that there are actually into domestic policy, but the Chinese have an incredible many areas where China and the United Kingdom have interest in foreign policy, which has grown not only mutual interests. We are an entrepreneurial nation, keen because of their need to protect their strategic homeland on developing technology and education. Those links but because of their ability to have access to economic are very strong indeed. There are even areas in terms of resources. security where China is co-operating with Britain and the west. Recently, the Chinese navy has been co-operating There was also the idea that, somehow or other, the on anti-piracy patrols in the Indian ocean. That is all to Chinese have only just become involved in Africa. As be welcomed. most hon. Members know, the Chinese were becoming involved in Africa from the late 1950s and early 1960s. However, when we talk about the relations between the UK and China, we should not constantly place the It seems to me that the key issue in how the UK emphasis on always trying to consider things from the relates to China is the fact that China has a world view, Chinese perspective. It is equally important that we are which is based, as senior Chinese officials keep saying in very clear what UK national interests are and we should all the conversations that I have had with them, upon spell those interests out, forcefully but not rudely, to the achieving harmony; that is harmony from a Chinese Chinese. point of view. Consequently, as far as China is concerned there is a raft of issues, most of which relate to Chinese Actually, I think the Chinese Government realise internal affairs, that are not to be discussed. They are that. Their formidable ambassador, Madam Fu Ying, certainly not to be discussed in public, and the fact is also realises it. I emphasise all the things that have that individuals or countries that raise them in public, been said about her; she has gone out of her way to even if they are raised in a moderate way, are likely to improve British-Chinese relations, although I would produce the grave displeasure of the Chinese Government. put in a caveat—however good an ambassador is, they have 255WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 256WH

[Mr. Keith Simpson] role of the G20 and so on but to our role within the European Union. One frustration for the Chinese is riding instructions from their Foreign Office and we that they end up doing different deals with 27 countries should recognise that. Ambassadors are not independent within the EU and that Europe cannot manage to get its actors. act together effectively in its relations with China. We I welcome the debate. As I said, the real question is can be much more effective on many issues by having a whether the issues raised by my hon. Friend the Member shared foreign policy within the European Union in for Banbury are a blip or represent a trend. What is the relation to China. perspective of Foreign Office officials and of the Minister? The hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk said that it is Although, like many colleagues, I have in the past been sometimes difficult to say things in public because it critical of the Foreign Office and its officials at times, I offends Chinese sensibilities. I am sure that he was not do not think those officials are as inadequate, or that suggesting that we therefore should not say them. the Foreign Office is as poor, as the hon. Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey may have been suggesting Mr. Simpson: No. in some of his comments. Chris Bryant: I understand that. However, it is often 10.48 am easier for us to say things jointly, as the whole European Union. That has far more effect without affecting bilateral The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): I take that relations directly. In relation to some of the issues that last comment by the hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk we have discussed today, the fact that the EU has been (Mr. Simpson) as a ringing endorsement, not of me able to engage concretely as a whole, making representations personally, obviously, but of the Foreign Office. on our behalf as well as on that of other member states, It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship, has mitigated some potential problems with bilateral Mr. Fraser. Whenever the general election is, it is a relationships. shame that you will not still be gracing these corridors The creation of a much more rationalised External afterwards. Action Service within the European Union and its This debate is very timely and I congratulate the hon. presence in China will be vital to UK interests in the Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry) on securing it. He years to come. We must ensure that good British diplomats gave us a tantalising mental image of himself and the are deployed in the External Action Service in China, hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk in the 1970s with longer and we must ensure that the EAS is effective. Given how hair. However, I just wonder what their foreign policy Cathy Ashton presented her case to the European was at that time, for example on Pinochet’s Chile and Parliament on Monday, I am sure that she is focused particularly on and . However, on that. that is obviously not a matter for today’s debate. We need to address crucial international affairs issues, such as Iran’s growing nuclear ambitions, and China Mr. Simpson: What was your policy on the Soviet will be key to that. Several hon. Members referred to Union? trade issues. One area in which we need to move forward significantly is achieving market economy status within Chris Bryant: It has been an entirely sensible one all the European Union for China. That can happen only my life. when China is prepared to make effective concessions The hon. Member for Banbury said that he too reads on some of its anti-competitive practices. books. I see that some additional books have been The hon. Member for Banbury started by referring to brought in for him during the debate. That is a great Copenhagen. Several hon. Members, including my hon. delight, as I thought that I might have to recite to him Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey some words from Pope— (Derek Wyatt), suggested that there might have been a “A little learning is a dangerous thing; complete failure on the British part and that we somehow Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring: did not know what the Chinese were thinking. We certainly did. On many occasions last year, Ministers There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain”— here expressed our profound concern about the direction but obviously he has plenty to keep him reading. in which China was moving in relation to climate change. On serious matters, I will say three general things Many of us tried to put the argument to China that the before I come to Members’ specific questions. One threat to it from climate change is significant in terms of statistic that exemplifies the issue for all of us is that in internal migration and migration from low-lying areas 2005, the UK’s GDP and China’s were roughly equal, at around the world, and that it is in China’s interest to get $2.24 trillion for China and $2.25 trillion for the UK. It it right. is almost certain that the final figure for China in 2009 The hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk said that will be double the UK’s. With regard to economic ambassadors sometimes do not have much wriggle room; might, we must be absolutely clear-sighted about the that is also true of Chinese delegations. Perhaps if there issue before us. It is compounded by the fact that China, had been more wriggle room in Copenhagen, we would unlike Japan, is a permanent member of the Security have got closer to a better and stronger set of agreements. Council, so its role in international affairs is significant. I know that many more vulnerable nations were upset One thing that has struck me forcibly in this debate is that the equity argument about climate change—namely, that many people have referred to China’s growing that the poorest people in the world will be most power and the possibility of a bipolar world in which dramatically affected by it, whether in Bangladesh or the United States of America and China are the two on islands in the Pacific that are likely to disappear world powers. To me, that points clearly not just to the under the ocean—did not carry as much weight with 257WH China13 JANUARY 2010 China 258WH

China as it perhaps should have done, especially in light differently in China and that the amount of drugs of the argument that China wants a harmonious world involved was 80 times the amount that would normally according to its own understanding. lead to an execution there. We look forward to Mexico and hope that we will be We wholeheartedly deprecate the use of the death able to secure a better agreement. I am convinced that penalty in any country. The fact that China, and Chinese the Chinese position will move; I am sure that the public opinion, has a completely different attitude towards equity argument will carry more weight. It was good such matters is undoubtedly a problem for us. We that China moved substantially last year from the position understand the family’s need for a proper sense of that it held at the beginning of the year to the position that closure, and we will respond in a way that I hope can it adopted in Copenhagen. It was a significant change. provide it; I am not yet sure precisely how we will go China now accepts the need for measurement and about it. verification. The hon. Member for Banbury mentioned the number Several hon. Members asked whether we have the of Chinese students who come to the UK. My hon. right architecture for such discussions. That is almost Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey— certainly not the case; the difficulty is whether we incidentally, I should say that it is also a great sadness should first address the architecture arguments or the that he will not be here after the general election either, substance. That is one complication of all United Nations as he will not be standing; I have had the great pleasure bodies. We need to find an architecture that better of rowing and agreeing with him over the years—mentioned embraces the changing power blocs that several hon. soft diplomacy. The number of Chinese students who Members have mentioned, not least Brazil, India and come to the UK is an important part of that, which is Mexico. why I would not change the student visa regime in the way suggested by the Conservative party. The more The hon. Member for Mid-Norfolk discussed the Chinese students who come to the UK, the better. In execution of Akmal Shaikh, and the hon. Member for relation to soft diplomacy, the BBC World Service, the East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) referred to her hon. British Council and the Chevening scholarships are all Friend the Member. for Orkney and Shetland important elements of how we do business around the (Mr. Carmichael), who has done a great deal of work world. on the issue of the death penalty around the world. We Several hon. Members raised the issue of dissidents debated the issue before Christmas—I answered for the being treated aggressively by the Chinese courts recently. Government. He has said, I think, that we did everything We wholeheartedly deprecate and are concerned by the that we thought possible. The Prime Minister, the Foreign verdict and sentence pronounced against the prominent Secretary and I, as well as the embassy in Beijing, did human rights defender Liu Xiaobo. It is the most everything that we could to ensure that our concerns substantial sentence given for many years— about the nature of the trial, the secrecy that surrounded it and the issues relating to mental health were understood. Christopher Fraser (in the Chair): Order. We now It is worth saying that mental health is viewed very move on to the next debate. 259WH 13 JANUARY 2010 Insurance Industry 260WH

Insurance Industry do not go on to develop MS. Given that Mr. McGaw was not referred for any further tests in November 2004, it is difficult to argue that he was known to be 11 am suffering from a relevant condition when he joined the Mr. Tom Harris (Glasgow, South) (Lab): I am grateful critical illness scheme, or that any of his medical advisers for the opportunity to address the Chamber on this suspected that he was suffering from MS. Nevertheless, important issue, Mr. Fraser. AEGON UK refused the payment on those grounds. Although this debate is on the regulation of the In April 2008, Mr. McGaw appealed the decision to insurance industry, my aim is not to discuss the subject refuse payment, but that was rejected. Later that month, in its broadest terms, but to focus on a specific issue as it he appealed to the financial services ombudsman who, affects one of my constituents. Paul McGaw’s health after considerable delay, rejected the appeal. The FSO insurer refused to provide a payout under a critical accepted that Mr. McGaw had fallen foul of the two-year illness scheme for a medical condition covered by the rule and that the diagnosis of retrobulbar neuritis was a policy. I hope that bringing this issue to the Government’s relevant pre-existing condition. attention will encourage them to reconsider the system of regulation of the insurance industry. Mr. McGaw approached me as his Member of Parliament in April 2009. I wrote to Mr. Otto Thoresen, Mr. McGaw was an employee of Sopra Newell and chief executive of AEGON UK, raising a number of Budge, an IT company based in Edinburgh. In June concerns and asking for the case to be reconsidered. 2003, the company instituted a group critical illness Mr. Thoresen declined to reconsider the decision and scheme with AEGON UK, which was open to all rehearsed in detail the argument about a known pre-existing employees. Mr. McGaw applied to join the scheme in condition. The letter emphasised that, under a group June 2005 and his cover commenced on 1 July 2005. At policy, no underwriting work is carried out before cover the time of application, no comprehensive details of is granted. Had underwriting taken place in June 2005, exclusions were made available to Mr. McGaw, nor was MS would have been specifically excluded from there a key facts summary. Applicants to the scheme Mr. McGaw’s cover, given his known medical history. I were required only to complete a fairly basis tick-list find that incomprehensible, given that Mr. McGaw’s questionnaire, which Mr. McGaw duly did. consultant has confirmed that retrobulbar neuritis is Nearly two years after his policy cover started and not a cause of MS. following a number of medical tests, Mr. McGaw was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis by his general practitioner. Having exhausted every other avenue, the only method That condition was covered by his policy. Understandably, of appeal open to Mr. McGaw is the civil court. That he made a claim under the terms of the policy through option is prohibitively expensive and carries no guarantee his employer. The claim was examined by AEGON of success. There is case law in regard to a personal, UK, which requested his previous medical records so rather than group, policy in which an insurer’s decision that they could be looked at by its appointed medical to reject a similar claim was overturned. In that case, adviser. which came before Lord Eassie, a pre-existing eye problem and subsequent diagnosis of MS were again the matters On 27 September 2007, Mr. McGaw was informed under dispute. In finding for the plaintive, Lord Eassie that his claim had been rejected on the grounds of ruled that the insurer requested access to her medical paragraph 10.2 of the policy conditions: records only to avoid payment, as it did not dispute the “No benefit will be payable for any Critical Illness condition diagnosis. occurring within two years of the Member’s cover starting which, in the opinion of the medical advisor nominated by us, has Under a personal policy, insurers are required to resulted directly or indirectly from any condition that the member allow for three types of non-disclosure: innocent non- was known to be suffering from at, or prior to, the start of disclosure, as in the court case I have just described, Cover.” where full payment must be made; negligent non-disclosure, AEGON UK wholly accepted that Mr. McGaw was where partial payment is made; and deliberate non- suffering from MS, but based on his medical records, disclosure where no payment is made. It is clear that claimed that he was known to be suffering from a under a personal policy, Mr. McGaw would have been pre-existing condition prior to the commencement of entitled to at least partial payment, if not full payment. the policy. That related to the diagnosis of an eye Sadly, my constituent appears to be a victim of the very condition three years earlier. different terms and conditions that pertain to group In 2004, Mr. McGaw had experienced a number of policies and personal policies. problems with his vision. He had been examined by his Throughout the UK, employers offer group policies GP and a consultant ophthalmologist. The consultant as part of their package of employee benefits and wrote to the GP confirming a diagnosis of retrobulbar thousands of individuals take up the opportunity in neuritis and stating that Mr. McGaw’s vision had returned good faith. They assume that they are gaining, at some to normal. It is important to make it clear that at no considerable saving, the sort of cover and security for time was Mr. McGaw advised that the diagnosis suggested themselves and their families that would alternatively other more serious neurological problems. Even in his be obtained only by taking out a personal policy. I am medical notes, there was no suggestion of possible or less than convinced that in promoting such group policies, suspected MS at that time. insurers make it sufficiently clear that the cover members The insurance provider took issue with Mr. McGaw’s will enjoy is significantly lower than the member might diagnosis of retrobulbar neuritis, saying it was a possible assume. Mr. McGaw is a reasonable and intelligent indicator of MS. I should point out that it is not a cause individual, but at no point did he realise that the policy of MS. Mr. McGaw’s consultant has confirmed that would not provide him with the assumed cover until his more than half of those diagnosed with the eye condition claim was refused. 261WH Insurance Industry13 JANUARY 2010 Insurance Industry 262WH

I trust that the Minister will agree that those who However, as recent cases involving payment protection believe themselves to be covered by such group policies insurance and mortgage payment protection insurance should seek further independent advice to confirm exactly have highlighted, poor sales and administration practices what they are covered for. Having acquainted myself can lead to unfavourable consumer outcomes. That is with Mr. McGaw’s case, my concern is that thousands why it is as important as ever that we ensure that a of employees in this country who think that they are robust supervisory regime is maintained and improved covered for critical illness, would be put in an intolerable in order to protect consumers while at the same time financial position, along with their families, if such an allowing the industry to continue to innovate and grow. illness arrived. I have come to the unfortunate conclusion We as a Government are committed to working with that AEGON UK has, through its dubious and cynical the regulators and the insurance industry to continue to processes, severely let down my constituent in a most improve consumer outcomes. That aim was restated in tragic, callous and unforgivable way. last year’s report of the insurance industry working 11.8 am group, which was co-chaired by the Chancellor and Andrew Moss, the chief executive officer of Aviva. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah Made up of leading industry figures, the group set out McCarthy-Fry): It is a pleasure to serve under your its vision for the insurance industry in 2020, stating that chairmanship, Mr. Fraser. I thank my hon. Friend for it wanted the UK to be the leading global centre of securing this debate. excellence for insurance, and recognising that better The regulation of the insurance industry is an extremely consumer outcomes were fundamental to achieving that important issue and I listened with interest to my hon. vision. Friend’s speech. I was saddened to hear the case of his constituent, Mr. Paul McGaw, in relation to both his In recent years, we have collectively delivered several suffering from multiple sclerosis and his inability to significant improvements to consumer protection and claim on his critical illness policy. I am sure my hon. wider social outcomes. The FSA, OFT and Competition Friend will appreciate that I cannot comment on that Commission have worked to improve the quality and individual case today, but I will provide an overview of distribution of payment protection insurance products, how the insurance industry is regulated and describe which are known as PPI policies. The FSA agreed an recent improvements to the protection of insurance end to the sale of single-premium PPI policies in May customers. I will cover critical illness insurance and last year and imposed substantial fines for mis-selling group critical illness insurance in particular. I will go on PPIs. It is also consulting on new guidance detailing to mention recent and proposed improvements to insurance how companies should process PPI complaints, and industry regulation. I will focus in particular on the requiring firms to reopen 185,000 PPI complaint cases. proposed Law Commission reforms. The FOS continued to help to protect PPI consumers There have been a number of improvements in consumer by offering independent arbitration. Furthermore, the protection and regulation for insurance before and after Government have introduced equalities legislation that Mr. McGaw’s claim in 2007. I recognise that that knowledge will prohibit unjustified discrimination in the provision will not alter his situation or offer him much comfort. of goods, facilities and services. However, it is important that we highlight the excellent To move on to critical illness insurance products, work that has been done to improve insurance regulation critical illness cover provides a lump sum in the event in recent years. that the policyholder suffers from a specified illness or My hon. Friend will understand that many decisions undergoes a specified operation. In 2008, more than about the regulation of the insurance industry, especially 50 families and individuals a day were helped at extremely in relation to consumer protection, are made by bodies difficult times in their lives by claiming on their critical specifically established to act independently of Government. illness insurance policies. The average claim was £63,000, The Financial Services Authority is the lead regulator which is more than double the average UK annual for the insurance industry, and the Competition salary. Currently, some 12 million people in the UK are Commission and the Office of Fair Trading have important protected by a critical illness policy. roles in ensuring that insurance markets do not function Critical illness policies will pay out if the policyholder in a way that leads to consumer detriment. suffers from one of a list of predefined illnesses rather The Financial Ombudsman Service acts as an than from any condition that could prevent an individual independent and impartial dispute resolution service from working. Typically, such policies will also not and provides a safety net for consumers with complaints cover pre-existing illnesses if symptoms had started to against financial services firms, and I am glad that develop, or conditions that develop within a relatively Mr. McGaw sought its opinion on his case. By their short period of cover being taken out. nature, financial services, including insurance, often For group critical illness cover, the employer takes create complex consumer issues. The FOS provides an out a policy for the benefit of the members of the group economical and accessible resolution service to determine scheme. However, the individual members are not party what is fair and reasonable on the basis of the facts of to the insurance policy. In group insurance, it is common the dispute. for individuals to be asked relatively few underwriting It is important that regulators maintain confidence in questions up front and for the insurer to mitigate the the insurance sector because the efficient transfer of risk of having less information through exclusions. That risk through insurance is an important social function. approach is taken because it is cheaper and easier to It allows people to get on with their lives without having run, which means that policies can be offered at more to worry about risks that they are unwilling or unable to affordable prices. It is not unique to group policies; bear. By paying out hundreds of millions of pounds per other insurance products—for example, several individual day in claims, this crucial industry provides a service to travel insurance policies—also take that underwriting society and individuals when they are in distress. approach. 263WH Insurance Industry13 JANUARY 2010 Insurance Industry 264WH

[Sarah McCarthy-Fry] three years. The number of complaints received and the proportion upheld by the FOS have also decreased as a It is worth noting that individuals who find that they result of the improvements. cannot claim on their group policy due to exclusions Although significant steps forward have been made such as a pre-existing medical condition would most in improving customer outcomes through better, more likely also have had an exclusion applied if they had robust insurance regulations and industry best practice, attempted to take out individual cover. As a result, they more still needs to be done. Too many consumers still would not have been able to claim even if they had do not fully understand what is and is not covered by bought an individual policy and fully disclosed their their insurance policy. Work will continue on Government health status. However, we recognise that it is more and industry programmes aimed at improving customers’ likely that the customer taking out an individual policy financial capability to ensure that they have the skills would be aware of the exclusion at the point of purchase that are required to decide what products are suitable than the group member. Again, that highlights the need for them. for clear, simple products, appropriate financial advice and enhanced financial capability in consumers. Furthermore, despite the good work done by the FSA, the FOS and the ABI to improve standards for The Government and the regulator have taken several critical illness and insurance in general, we recognise steps to improve regulation and achieve better consumer that the law on what consumers have to disclose to outcomes from critical illness and other insurance products. insurers is based on a statute that is more than 100 years In January 2008, the FSA published the “Insurance old: the Marine Insurance Act 1906. It was designed Conduct of Business Sourcebook”, or ICOBS, which specifically for marine insurance, consumer insurance applies to all general insurance and protection products being practically unheard of at the time. Under that and sets out, among other things, how they should be statute, consumers have a duty to volunteer all information sold. Under the ICOBS regime, insurers are required to that would have an effect on the mind of a prudent explain the key features of the product, to highlight insurer. Thus insurers can refuse to pay out if a policyholder exemptions and to take reasonable steps to ensure that failed to disclose any information that the insurer, as a customer only takes out a policy on which they would oppose to the policyholder, deems to be relevant, even if be eligible to claim benefits. The FSA’s Treating Customers the consumer answered honestly and reasonably all Fairly initiative sets a high standard for product design, questions asked, for example, in relation to a pre-existing for information and advice provided to customers and medical condition—no matter how innocuous. for the after-sale conduct of insurance companies. That position has been mitigated over the years by However, it was identified in 2007 that too many way of ABI codes of conduct, FSA rules and FOS complaints about critical illness policies were being decisions. However, the result remains unsatisfactory, received and upheld by the FOS, thereby indicating a and the original 1906 statute has merely been over-layered common underlying problem with how critical illness to reduce its otherwise harsh effect. Further, the existence claims were being treated. I am pleased to say that the of the current patchwork of rules and codes makes the industry proactively responded to the issues and acted position confusing for consumers seeking to understand to restore confidence in critical illness products. In their rights and obligations. We support the Law January 2008, the Association of British Insurers Commission and the FOS view that in the long term implemented its guidance for non-disclosure, which was such a disjoint between consumer interest and, indeed, upgraded to a code in January 2009. This mandatory industry best practice and the law is not sustainable. In code sets out how firms should treat customers who the event of a dispute over customer disclosure, the have inadvertently or otherwise failed to disclose relevant FOS can use its powers to rule on what is fair and information to the insurer. reasonable. However, if the case goes to court, the court The code states that insurers should pay out if the will be forced to apply the 1906 Act. customer made an innocent error in not disclosing Although it is commendable that, on the whole, information, unless such information would have meant regulatory and industry action has served to mitigate that insurance would not have been offered in the first that gap, it is logical that we should consider amending place. If the pre-existing medical condition does not the law to reflect the current consumer position and to relate to the claim, insurers must consider a claim. provide even greater clarity and protection for consumers. Therefore, the difference in the treatment of disclosure The Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission between group policies and personal policies that was published a joint report and the draft Consumer Insurance highlighted in my hon. Friend’s speech, and was exemplified Law: Pre-Contract Disclosure and Misrepresentation in the Scottish judgment to which he referred, would no Bill in December 2009. That draft Bill would largely longer arise. I appreciate that that will be scant comfort reinforce current regulatory and industry best practice to his constituent. by clarifying what it would be reasonable to expect The ABI also has a statement of best practice for customers to disclose and setting out how insurers critical illness cover. It aims to make the critical illness should deal with inadvertent non-disclosure. market more straightforward for consumers through the use of standard terminology and covered conditions. The Law Commission’s consultation on the draft Bill Both of the ABI codes relate to group as well as received a favourable response. The ABI is supportive individual critical illness cover. of the proposals and, out of 39 responses from insurers, only four argued against the reform. We fully support The combination of industry best practice and regulation the aims of the Law Commission in reviewing pre-contract has successfully improved the position of those who disclosure and misrepresentation in consumer insurance take out critical illness policies. The payout rate for law. The Law Commission’s proposals will be considered critical illness has increased from 80 to 90 per cent. in thoroughly in the round with other priorities for legislation 265WH Insurance Industry 13 JANUARY 2010 266WH at the appropriate time, and my officials are in regular Local Newspapers communication with the Law Commission as it progresses that work. We have heard that a great deal has been done in recent years to improve the regulation of the insurance [MRS.JANET DEAN in the Chair] industry and to ensure protection for consumers. Particular attention has been paid to critical illness policies and to ensuring that policyholders are treated fairly. I would 2.30 pm like to assure my hon. Friend that it is also clear that Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): It is consumer protection in this area is challenging. We will good to have the opportunity to introduce this debate, need to continue to work regularly with regulators and and that so many colleagues from all parties are present the industry to ensure that insurance products are regulated to contribute. I guess the subject of local newspapers is effectively. a good way of encouraging Members to attend, as we all have good relationships, even love-hate relationships, 11.22 am with our local papers and therefore feel passionately Sitting suspended. about their success and survival. Like many hon. Members, I spend a fair amount of my constituency time meeting people in the local business community, listening to what they have to say, taking up their concerns and learning from them. One such meeting was the inspiration for the debate; it was with Howard Scott, the managing director of Newsquest South and West London at his office in my constituency. Newsquest publishes the “Guardian” series of local newspapers, which are well regarded and well read in many places. At that meeting he talked me through the pressures the industry is under and highlighted the impact that taxpayer- funded council newspapers are having on the health of an independent local press. I hope that all my colleagues agree that local papers are part of the lifeblood of our democracy.

Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I completely agree with my hon. Friend that local newspapers are the lifeblood of the community. Does he agree that news is something that someone does not want people to know, so by printing news the papers hold decision makers and those with power and authority to account and that without them we would be democratically and socially poorer?

Mr. Burstow: That sentiment will be echoed throughout the debate, and it is certainly one that I want to express in some detail and with examples. Local papers can and should be challenging. Sometimes, they can even be irritating and they occasionally get their facts wrong, but none of those things outweighs the public interest local papers serve. It is not just my view that local papers are part of the lifeblood of our democracy, it is also the clearly expressed view of the current Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, who wrote about the matter last year in the Sunday Mirror. My purpose today is to urge the Government to act now to safeguard our local newspapers against unfair competition from council-funded local papers. I will first give some background information. Research by the Newspaper Society last year found that nine in 10 councils now print their own newspaper. Over the past year around 60 local papers have closed across the country, amounting to almost one in 20 titles. Not all of that is due to unfair competition from councils, as clearly other factors are also at work, new media being just one example. Cost pressures have forced cuts in journalist staff, potentially compromising local papers’ ability to get behind the press releases they are bombarded with from all directions. 267WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 268WH

Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): Does my hon. world. Such a publication would always be on message, Friend accept that the question is about not only the and there would be a huge cost to the taxpayer. Clearly, closure of newspapers, but the reduction in the number there would be a lot of laughter as a result, but there of editions for some newspapers? My local paper, the would also be an outcry, because clearly that is not Cambrian News, which is celebrating 150 years since it right, but it is what is happening locally. Taxpayers’ was founded, serves a huge area of rural Wales, but we money is being used to pay for the production and have seen a reduction in the number of local editions, distribution of loss-making, council-run newspapers. which also affects the effectiveness of local reporting. A sinister trend is emerging in some local government quarters of directly competing with local independent Mr. Burstow: The ability of local papers to really get newspapers, even to the extent of putting them out of into local communities in that way is clearly a concern, business. One council that has developed such an approach and obviously the cost pressures that many face are is Tower Hamlets council. It has adopted an aggressive leading to such curtailments, so the hon. Gentleman approach to running its weekly newspaper, East End makes a fair point. Life. The council’s head of commercial operations, Chris I declare an interest, as I was a member of a local Payne, set out the philosophy behind East End Life at a authority for several years, and as a former councillor I conference in Sheffield in 2008. Many independent have no beef with the idea that local councils should be local papers, he said, able to communicate directly with local residents about “churn out a negative diet of crime and grime, often attacking the services they offer, and provide information to the their local council and generally creating a negative impression”. public. That is a legitimate role for any local council. Council papers, by contrast, “help create a positive place-shaping agenda, talking up an area Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): I suspect that I will and its residents’ achievements, celebrating diversity and opportunity agree with much of what the hon. Gentleman will say. for all. Look at your local newspapers, paid-for and free…Then He said that local authorities should communicate with ask yourself: can you do a better, brighter, more cost-effective, their local residents, but does he agree that the main informative, entertaining, valued and positive local paper?” difference between what local newspapers do and what That vision of a state-run local newspaper goes well local councils do is that local newspapers hold local beyond providing local residents with information about councils to account, whereas local council newspapers council services. seem conveniently to concentrate on all the good things that seem to be happening? They never concentrate on Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): The answer is the things that are going wrong in their area. to return to the reputable trade of journalism. Journalists should work only for independent newspapers and should Mr. Burstow: The hon. Gentleman makes a good be guaranteed proper training and decent wages. Does point, which I shall amplify later in my speech with the hon. Gentleman agree that it has all gone wrong more details and examples. because we have undermined the trade of journalism?

Mr. David Evennett (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Con): Mr. Burstow: The hon. Gentleman has a point, and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the there is also a point about the blurring of the role of debate. It is an issue that many Members, from all press officers and journalists writing news and newspapers. parties, are concerned about. When we are trying to Equally, however, huge numbers of people still want to engage more people in politics and the democratic go into journalism and see local papers as an important process, surely the local press has an important role. starting place for their career. Council publications cannot fulfil it to the same extent The vision I have outlined is one that a number of because they are informative journals, but we need to local authorities certainly seem to be embracing. They get more people interested in politics, and the only way are spending large amounts of public money to employ to do that is to have a vigorous local press. press officers to produce what amounts to little more than propaganda masquerading as newspapers. It cannot Mr. Burstow: Absolutely. That is the reason why I be healthy for local democracy, or indeed for accountability, wanted the debate and why I was so pleased that my as has been mentioned already, for the only source of name came out of the hat soon after applying for the local news to be paid for by the council. debate. I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman’s point. I will give some examples of the types of practice that Many councils have for a long time produced publications need to be investigated. Indeed, the excellent debate that do not compete directly with the local press. They pack produced by the House of Commons Library are often magazines that are published less frequently provides many examples of the concerns about the than newspapers and focus on council services. They matter up and down the country. As a London Member can provide a useful service. However, they have to be of Parliament, I shall concentrate on London examples. clearly different from newspapers and must not provide In the past nine years, London boroughs have ditched a new service to the local public. My council produces low-key, factual publicity and launched high-frequency, such a magazine, the Sutton Scene, which definitely in-your-face tabloids full of good news—even good does not compete with local newspapers. news that does not bear much scrutiny. I have already Just imagine that a beleaguered Prime Minister decided mentioned East End Life in Tower Hamlets. Currently, to hire a team of journalists and commentators to that council paper is produced and distributed to produce a daily newspaper that created a positive image 90,000 homes every week. It runs to 72 pages and of the Government, talking up their achievements and contains news, reviews, seven-day TV listings, restaurant promoting them as well as it could—[Interruption.] It reviews and, of course, sport. Circulation for the local might be impossible even for the best journalist in the paid-for paper, the East London Advertiser, has fallen 269WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 270WH from 20,000 to 7,500, and its advertising revenues have should ensure that statutory notices are put in the plummeted since East End Life started to offer subsidised independent press. Is it not unfair competition when advertising rates that, frankly, it could not match. that does not happen? How much is all that costing? The council says that it costs £118,000 a year—good value for money for the Mr. Burstow: One thing that I want to put on the council tax payer—but that figure hides a great deal. record is that the Government did consult on removing When one looks further, one finds that there is an awful statutory requirements to place adverts in independent lot of subsidy through advertising paid for by the publications and, I believe, decided not to proceed with council and other local agencies. Indeed, on the most that. That was on 21 December, and that good news was recent figures, it amounts to £980,000 a year, so the true welcome. cost to the public purse of the publication is £1.1 million. Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): Will my hon. Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): Is it not also a Friend give way? matter of concern that the editor of that local government newspaper is paid more than one of our most distinguished journalists, Miss Polly Toynbee? Mr. Burstow: If I could make a little more progress, I would be happy to give way to my hon. Friend. Mr. Burstow: I am grateful for that point, which is a I was referring to the drastic reaction—cutting jobs fair one. It needs to be brought out, and has been and closing offices—that a commercial entity would brought out clearly in this debate. need to have to falling revenues. Another example that I In truth, without a huge public subsidy, East End Life wish to give is Greenwich Time, which is delivered would be dead and buried—it would not be able to run. 44 weeks a year to every home in the borough. Again, it However, if it were acting like a true newspaper, would mimics the format and content of a local paper. Its cost it not hold the council to account? Let me give an is £708,000 a year, of which at least £532,000 is borne by example of what I mean. local taxpayers. Before it goes to print, every page is Last year, Tower Hamlets paid out £800,000 after checked and approved by the council leader. The council cancelling the contract of its chief executive. It paid out claims that it is not trying to put the local independent another £1 million in compensation to an employee paper out of business, but it has adopted the practice of over an age discrimination case, and £500,000 was paid holding back stories for exclusives for its own paper. in redundancy to the council’s head of human resources. If we head west, we find that a similar story applies to Large sums of public money are being paid out, but not Hammersmith and Fulham. The council’s h&f news, a single column inch was devoted to explaining any of it which is distributed to 75,000 homes, is a perfect example in East End Life. When the books failed to balance for of what I wanted this debate to be about: pseudo- that particular operation, and the paper found itself newspapers. It has lots of news, a 12-page property with a £400,000 shortfall in advertising income, it dipped section pull-out, crosswords and a sudoku, a what’s-on into the council’s reserves to find money for a bail-out. section, advertising from local businesses and even a There was no debate, there appears to be no accountability, gardening section. Its counterparts in Tower Hamlets and there were certainly no column inches devoted to and Greenwich and all such publications are written to explaining why that was a good use of council tax look at the world through the tinted glasses of the payers’ money. ruling party of the council. How can that be fair competition? Any commercial local paper facing such a drop in revenue would have to Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s take drastic action such as cutting jobs and closing Bush) (Lab): I was looking through my copy of h&f offices. news to find out what is not happening in the borough Derek Wyatt (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Lab): Can as the hon. Gentleman spoke. If I get a chance to speak, the hon. Gentleman enlighten us as to whether the I have some rather good news, which he may know accounts were then passed by the Audit Commission? about, on the local press in my area. He will be pleased Has he been in conversation or correspondence with the to hear that universally—perhaps not originally, but commission about that? universally—h&f news is known as Pravda throughout the borough, so perhaps it is not quite as effective as Mr. Burstow: Local council tax payers should certainly some might think. do that, but the question is whether they even know that such a thing has happened. That is why this debate is Mr. Burstow: I hope that the hon. Gentleman gets an taking place. opportunity to contribute to the debate. Harry Cohen (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab): Will the The consequence of this unfair competition is that hon. Gentleman give way? Hammersmith and Fulham had been on the verge of becoming the first borough in Britain where the only Mr. Burstow: I will give way one more time, but I source of local news was the council newspaper. As the want to try to make some progress so that others can hon. Gentleman intimated, Trinity Mirror Southern, participate. which owns the local titles in Hammersmith and Fulham, yesterday announced a fight back, and I understand Harry Cohen: I do not want to make a long intervention. that the Fulham and Hammersmith Chronicle will be The hon. Gentleman referred to competition. Is it not a relaunched as a free weekly paper, to be delivered to problem if a local authority does its advertising, including 72,000 homes in the area, from this Friday. That has to statutory notices, in its own paper and takes it away be good news for the people of Hammersmith and from the independent press? Indeed, the Government Fulham. 271WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 272WH

Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): My I said that my purpose today is to urge action. In June hon. Friend will know that local newspapers such as last year “Digital Britain” reported on and acknowledged our own, the Sutton Guardian, play a crucial role in the negative impact on independent local newspapers of keeping our local community informed about local local authority newspapers: matters that affect it. Is he as worried as I am that local “they will inevitably not be as rigorous in holding local institutions newspapers across the whole country are finding it to account as independent local media.” difficult to ensure comprehensive distribution of commercial It went on to say that there was a need for the Audit free sheets, and does he put that down to the competition Commission to be invited to undertake an inquiry into that they are facing from local councils’ free newspapers? the impact of council newspapers and to “make recommendations on best practice and if restraints should Mr. Burstow: I am sure that that is one contributory be placed on local authority activity in this field.” factor that makes it harder for the commercial business That is what happened. That request was made and the model for a local newspaper to be viable and to continue. Audit Commission is undertaking a study and a report Going back to Hammersmith and Fulham, its is on its way.However, the scope of the Audit Commission’s justification for having a fortnightly council-funded study has been narrowed and will not cover all that newspaper was interesting: there was not an independent “Digital Britain” sought: it will not look at the impact local paper that had a circulation sufficiently robust to of council papers on independent local newspapers. be able to communicate with local residents and get The wider public interest in a free press is not being messages into the community. Now that Trinity Mirror considered by the Audit Commission because it is outside is planning a free newspaper, which will hit 99 per cent. its remit. If that is so—I believe it is—it is not good of households, surely the council should be announcing enough. Surely the competition issues must be addressed. a timetable for getting out of the state-run newspaper I have presented some evidence about why that is so. business. Of course, not every area has a newspaper Last month, the Secretary of State for Business, group such as Trinity Mirror, with the resources to Innovation and Skills said: change its business model and move to a free sheet. In “a healthy culture of local news in particular is a public good and many cases, local papers are wilting under the pressure Government can’t just wash its hands of some responsibility for of council competition. sustaining that public good.” My final example is from Waltham Forest. The council How will the Secretary of State’s good intention be relaunched its in-house magazine in 2008 as a local translated into action? If the Audit Commission does newspaper, the Waltham Forest News, which is distributed not do a comprehensive job and does just a half job, free to 110,000 households. The council withdrew its surely the Office of Fair Trading must be asked to finish advertising from the local independent press and now it off and do the job that “Digital Britain” asked to be places all its ads in its own paper—that goes back to the done. Without such action there is a risk of the creation point that the hon. Member for Leyton and Wanstead of 21st century rotten boroughs, where the only news (Harry Cohen) made. As well as turning off the tap on freely available to everyone is provided by the council. advertising revenue, the council is actively marketing its Chris Payne from Tower Hamlets described council-run paper for advertising. newspapers as “place shaping”. Orwell would be proud. Not only has the funding tap been turned off but I hope that we can do something to ensure that Orwell news stories are being held back to be given to the is not proud and that we do not allow state-run newspapers. council’s paper on an exclusive basis. I am told that, as a result, on a number of occasions the Waltham Forest 2.52 pm Guardian received complaints from its readers for not reporting events that had a council connection. In fact, Derek Wyatt (Sittingbourne and Sheppey) (Lab): May the council had kept it in the dark about what was I congratulate the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam happening. In 2006, Waltham Forest spent £464,000 (Mr. Burstow) on prompting the stimulating discussion with the Guardian series. That fell to £177,946 in 2007 that we will have in the next 90 minutes? and just £9,749 by 2008. That was a crippling drop in I should like to mention a little bit of history. In 1995, revenue for a significant employer in Waltham Forest. Netscape created a web presence that enabled people The council’s decision to withdraw its advertising damaged not only to read straight e-mails, as we had in those the paper and contributed to job losses and the closure days, but to carry pictures and, inevitably, video. In the of the paper’s local office. first internet bubble of 1999-2000, the only national Getting a handle on the true cost of council-controlled newspaper that understood what had happened was newspapers is hard because often it is not clearly set out The Guardian, which then started to run a virulent, in a codified set of accounts. The costs are buried in clever website called Guardian Unlimited. Of course, other budgets, making it difficult to pull together a The Guardian could do that because it is a trust—a complete picture. Nevertheless, a combination of freedom charity, a not-for-profit company—and was able to of information requests, investigative journalism and so invest huge amounts of money to become the first on has allowed us to put a figure on what the pseudo- national newspaper to measure, understand and put newspapers are costing. In London, some £10 million a news on the internet. But it did not have to worry about year is being spent on them. I understand that in a the advertising moving from its paper to its own site, couple of weeks, under the auspices of Tower Hamlets because it was the same business, although, as we know, business manager, all the business managers of those it is not a business but a not-for-profit company. effectively commercial council-run newspapers will meet Only in the past two years have The Sun, the Daily to compare notes on how to be even better at selling Mirror, the Daily Mail and The Daily Telegraph fully advertising in their areas in competition with their local understood what the net is doing. Why have they done papers. that? They have done it because they have lost their 273WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 274WH advertising. Since the new year, regular Guardian readers in the high street, and with the newspaper office in a car will have noticed that one section is missing—on Thursdays, park or a business centre, no one pops in and the news is for example, the information technology has gone—and worse. That is compounded again if companies say, as all the other sections are being rolled into the main Trinity Mirror and Northcliffe have latterly, “We’re newspaper, because the classified ads have gone. Where going to invest in the websites of regional weekly have they gone? The Government’s classified ads, for newspapers.” Why bother to buy the weekly newspaper example, have gone online, to Direct.gov. The process when you can get Monday’s, Tuesday’s and Wednesday’s has changed. Why have The Daily Telegraph, The Sun news free online? and the Daily Mirror done that? The Sun gets nearly The strategy of the owners of the local newspapers is 3 million hits a day on its website, most of which are confused. They do not know what to do. There are only from America. Most of the hits on The Guardian are two solutions. First—I have said this before, but I will from America, too: two thirds of the traffic on Guardian say it again, because somebody might listen eventually—we Unlimited is from America. That is all very well, but set up a licence fee for radio for the cultural good of advertising cannot be sold to Americans unless there is Britain, which eventually became a television licence. an American presence and it is being sold from there. Why is it restricted just to radio and television? It is a This is a more complex issue than it might seem, cultural fee. What might happen if someone said today, because, by and large, Trinity Mirror and Northcliffe “I’m going to set up a radio and TV licence and by the are the largest owners of regional newspapers. Over the way we also run six orchestras. I hope you don’t mind, past 20 years, regional newspapers have been seriously but we’d quite like the BBC to have an orchestra.” starved of money: perhaps hon. Members visited over Following my drift, why is only one organisation that time and saw the antiquatedness of what they had. allowed access to that cultural fee? If it was taken away Some did not have access to the internet in the past from the BBC and Ofcom invited bids, and as a result 10 years, others have only just got it, and some journalists the BBC had access to only 90 per cent. of that fee in did not have personal e-mail addresses. On going to the the first three years, we would have a fund of £300 million archives to try to find what out was said in the past, all that we could spend on community radio and television, people would have found would have been a cupboard academic publishing—you name it. People would be full of 10,000 newspapers. It was impossible. It is all able to apply for money from that cultural fund, even very well for us to say, “This is happening”, but local for music lessons in schools, if it was for the cultural newspapers have been bled by their parent companies. good. If we do not do that, there is no solution to help That is a consideration. the local newspaper. There has been a freefall of advertising—that is the I am not suggesting that we should subsidise Trinity key for all newspapers—because of the power of the Mirror’s or Northcliffe’s local newspapers, but there net. For example, there is now a website that is supported will be a Guardian alternative locally and groups of by the lottery for people who want to work for a people will want to set up not-for-profit newspapers, Member of Parliament. I wanted a researcher and put often online, that need funding. People cannot make it an advert on that site, which did not cost me any work. But what if they tried? How much does The money; 450 people applied, I had the most amazing Huffington Post lose? God only knows. The person who shortlist and I got somebody I am thrilled with. In the runs it is amazingly fortunate because she has backers old days, I would have had to pay for an advert. If I am in Los Angeles that allow that to happen. But look at doing that—if we are doing it as MPs—imagine the the news she collects and at the cost of it. Tina Brown in implications for the classified advertising market: it has New York has 5.5 million readers, but there is no collapsed. The hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam has money. made a robust case about local authorities paying, but I Making news work online and offline is complex and am talking about the market. The market has collapsed it is harder for local newspapers, because they lack the for weekly newspapers, and that is the difficult bit. drive, ambition, aspiration and understanding of the What can we do? The problem has been compounded market. by the development of local radio, which takes local news. If people can hear their transport, weather and Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) local news every day, why buy a weekly newspaper? (LD): The hon. Gentleman makes a strong case. Let me There are other reasons why the local market is where it remind him that some local newspapers are truly is. In Kent, for instance, which has the largest local independent—I am sure he knows that, but I want authority, Trinity Mirror has just sold out to Northcliffe everybody to register the point. They do not have a and there is a private family business called Kent Messenger. group such as Trinity Mirror behind them, or a big However, to keep people out of the classified market, backer who can cross-subsidise. There is a paper called Kent Messenger bought six local radio stations, although the Southwark News that is entirely independent. It is I am not sure that that should have been allowed. That even more at risk if councils behave as my hon. Friend course of action has been compounded, since we are in the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) a recession, because now Kent Messenger cannot afford suggests they increasingly want to do. to run both the radio stations and the local newspapers and has made the mistake of shutting front-line newspaper Derek Wyatt: As I have said, that case is a matter for offices in the high street. the Audit Commission, and I am amazed that it has Journalists who work in a high street know that been allowed. Perhaps questions should be asked about people pop in. For example, Flo might pop in and say that in another place in due course. My instincts are that she not only wants to buy an ad, but wants to tell that newspapers have forgotten why they are there. My the newspaper about a fire yesterday in the village that sense is that they should have a lesser presence on the it did not know about; it gets the story. Without journalists weekly pages, but go to the net as fast as possible. They 275WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 276WH

[Derek Wyatt] editorial base for its activities. Its contribution to the community can be seen in its green pages, in its campaigns should be local social network sites. On my social in the interests of business—in our case, for south network site I want to find the Yellow Pages, Facebook, London businesses—and in its promotion of contributions YouTube and Time Out. If such a site can be produced from individuals to their community. for Sittingbourne and Sheppey, it will get as many I went to an event run by the Croydon Guardian which readers as the local paper does currently. How do I celebrated Croydon champions. That newspaper has know that? I set up my website 10 years ago. The taken a positive line on removing sex industry adverts circulation of my two local weekly newspapers is between from its newspapers. I hope that Northcliffe will do the 8,000 and 11,000 people, but my website gets more than same with the Croydon Advertiser, although so far it has 15,000 readers. Who would want to read it? It is read refused. because it contains local news and is produced daily. Finally, we should recognise that the industry is extremely My point is that the newspapers were wrong because efficient. The Croydon Guardian operates with three they should have come to the net earlier. If they are journalists—Kirsty Whalley, Harry Miller and Mike planning to come to the net now, they will need to invest Didymus, who report to Matt Knowles—but the quality huge amounts of money, which their owners do not of production is amazing. have. Therefore, they will need a fund or we will go backwards—hon. Members know where I am coming Yesterday, I was pleased to meet the editor of the from. We wait to see how Rupert Murdoch will deal Croydon Advertiser, Andrew Worden. There is a challenge with this issue. Perhaps the iPhone application—or to the Advertiser from the local council newspaper, Your whatever—will cost 5p for the front page, 20p for the Croydon. There is heavy—top-heavy—investment in the op-ed, 50p for the best journalists and more for other press department of the local authority, and often there things. However, I counsel caution, because The Guardian is little distinction between Croydon council’s press tried to do that, and less than 12,000 people bothered to office and the parliamentary campaign of the Conservative pay for an application for their iPhone, which would be candidate for Croydon, Central. One can see the power updated twice a day. Will such measures work? I do not councils have in terms of the money provided, and know, but somehow we must find a fund to help local although the amount spent on the council newspaper is newspapers. probably around £20,000 a month, overall spending for the communication side of the authority is now £2 million Mrs. Janet Dean (in the Chair): Order. Before I call a year. That is a substantial amount of money, which the next speaker, I remind hon. Members that the might be better spent on the campaign currently being Front-Bench speakers normally start at 3.30 pm. Therefore, run by the council—in close conjunction with the I ask all hon. Members who wish to speak to be brief so Conservative parliamentary candidate—calling for extra that everyone can get in. police officers in Croydon. That is rather surprising given that the Conservatives are in control both at County hall and in Croydon. 3.1 pm We must think carefully about how the intervention Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): I of local authorities in newspaper production can be congratulate the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam particularly dangerous in communities that are smaller (Mr. Burstow) on securing the debate. In south-west than Croydon. The economies of scale are being increased London we benefit from the excellent “Guardian” series. by such intervention and if we end up with only two The hon. Gentleman receives extremely positive coverage journalists on the newspaper, as that is all that can be from the local newspaper, which is down to the excellence afforded at local level, the newspaper might go out of of his performance, not necessarily to how well he business. Many communities to the south of my manages that medium. constituency could face that difficulty. The national media are very powerful and can crush We often criticise local newspapers for being people at will. As many hon. Members know, I have sensationalist, and that is particularly applied to the successfully sued such media. As mentioned previously, Croydon Advertiser. However, we must recognise that local media are, in the main, owned by big international they do many good things, and I underline the point conglomerates. My local newspaper is part of the raised earlier about the advantages of newspapers investing “Guardian” series owned by Gannett. The “Advertiser” in regions and little parts of their communities. In my series in Croydon was part of Trinity Mirror, and is now local area, New Addington is a satellite estate and part of Northcliffe Media, which reflects some of the somewhat isolated, so it is great news that the Croydon trends in local media. Advertiser continues to publish the New Addington It is important that we expect organisations to invest Advertiser, and the good work done by Joanne Charlton. properly in the capital and in the staff of their newspapers. Local papers support communities by covering local Many people work in the business out of love, care and sports. I primarily read my local paper not to see what perhaps a desire to move on to bigger and better things. unpleasant things have been written about me, but to They are significantly underpaid, particularly when learn what has been happening to Croydon football compared with the local government sector, where someone club. Only about 60 of us actually go to watch the who works in public affairs or producing local newspapers matches, but it is still important for people to know can often earn double. what is going on. The Croydon Advertiser has done There are some good points and merits of local good things in terms of transport for young people who newspapers that we should boast about in this debate, need to be taken for kidney treatment, and in supporting to justify support for thriving local media. We are lucky the Chase children’s hospice, which is outside Croydon with the Newsquest “Guardian” series, as it has a broad but looks after young people from Croydon. 277WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 278WH

Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): Does the the 15 years since then it has fallen to 260,000, and it is hon. Gentleman think that councils should be banned still plummeting. All of us know of local papers from from issuing newspapers of their own? around the country that have closed, but even where papers have not closed, their offices on the high street Mr. Pelling: Although there is a need to communicate are being shut, the number of journalists is falling and basic public information, it would be possible to have the number of photographers is no longer the same. As legislation that stopped the marketing of the political a result, the quality of local coverage is diminishing. views of parties. That is something that one would have The first question to address is whether that matters. expected the local soviet to have produced in Russia, When the Minister gave evidence to the Committee a and I agree with the implication of the right hon. few weeks ago, he rightly pointed to the quality of some Gentleman’s question. I support that approach—£2 million online content. I think that he mentioned a website could be much better spent elsewhere. called Pots and Pans—

Mr. Bill Olner (Nuneaton) (Lab): Do local newspapers The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, face a greater threat from locally produced local government Media and Sport (Mr. Siôn Simon): Pits n Pots. newspapers, or through the incompetence of their owners? Mr. Whittingdale: I apologise. The Minister highlighted Mr. Pelling: There must be value in seeing both an example of a good local website, and there is no points of view. In the previous speech, a point was doubt good local provision. made about the lack of investment in training and in staff. In my local newspapers, many staff probably earn However, it was pointed out to the Committee that between £12,000 and £16,000 a year, but have the prospect the media industry is a pyramid, with local newspapers of doubling their pay if they become the equivalent of a at the bottom, forming the base or the widest part. junior reporter on their local government newspaper, Much of the journalistic investigation and news content and that situation is extremely distorting. that filters up to the nationals, to radio and even to television and the BBC starts with investigations carried None the less, good things are done, and I want to out by local newspapers. Furthermore, online provision mention two examples of the dedication shown in local is largely parasitic. That is a slightly emotive word, but journalism. First, my local authority gave an award to a how many journalists does Google employ? Most such gentleman called Ian Austin, who has been covering sites reproduce content from local newspapers. If we local government in Croydon for 40 years. Without lose those newspapers, the bottom of the pyramid will him, it would not have been possible for people to have be removed. I agree with all that has been said about had a balanced view of what was happening. how important it is for democracy and local accountability Secondly, I want to mention a lady called Aline that local newspapers survive. Nassif, who is a campaigning, social issues journalist. I am sure that she will go on to rival the pay of Polly Simon Hughes: One point that we have not mentioned, Toynbee, or perhaps a local government press officer, and which I am keen that we should, is that local because of her pursuit of important social issues. Work newspapers also do local court reporting. If we did not such as hers also informs Members of Parliament, who have that, the only court reports would be about celebrities benefit from what the local media have to say, and one appearing in court. Promoting an orderly society often attraction of her work is that she has campaigned on involves people realising that others who live on their important social issues, such as the very real weaknesses doorstep, on their estate or on their street might be held at Mayday hospital. However, I have already taken too to account and punished for what they do. People can much time, and I apologise to other hon. Members. I then comment on the punishment and on whether it will make way for others to speak. works.

3.10 pm Mr. Whittingdale: I very much agree and I will mention Mr. John Whittingdale (Maldon and East Chelmsford) that issue briefly in a second. (Con): I congratulate the hon. Member for Sutton and However, we need to look at why these things have Cheam (Mr. Burstow) on obtaining a debate on an happened. The hon. Member for Sittingbourne and extraordinarily important issue. There is no doubt that Sheppey (Derek Wyatt) is right that the principal cause local newspapers face a crisis, which is why the Select of the problem is the growth of the internet. That Committee on Culture, Media and Sport is conducting growth has come at the same time as a recession, which an inquiry into the future of local and regional media has led to a reduction in overall advertising spending. and why we have received a lot of evidence. In our first However, this is not just about the recession; there is a session, Claire Enders, who is one of the most respected migration of eyeballs and advertising expenditure away industry analysts, told us that half the country’s 1,300 from traditional media and towards online provision. local newspapers will be out of business within five To cite one example, the value of regional newspaper years. We then heard from the chief executives of Johnston advertising fell from £2.8 billion to £2 billion between Press, Trinity Mirror and the Guardian Media Group, 2002 and 2008. At the same time, the value of internet all of whom agreed that the crisis is the greatest that the advertising grew from £0.2 billion to £2.8 billion in real industry has faced. terms. As a result, local newspapers are in a double This is not just a UK problem, but an international squeeze and are seeing their advertising revenue fall, one. I have with me a chart showing the number of with all the consequences that have been described. people employed in newspaper publishing in America. In the brief time available I shall focus on one or two In 1947, the figure stood at about 240,000 and it grew things that we might do to address the problem. The steadily until about 1992. It peaked at 460,000, but in hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam is right: local 279WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 280WH

[Mr. Whittingdale] and Sheppey, who mentioned the interesting principle of public service reporting. The hon. Member for North authority newspapers are not helping. There is undoubtedly Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes) mentioned competition—some might say unfair competition—from the court service, which is just one example. It is terribly many local authority newspapers. Authorities no longer important that we know what is going on in our courts, place advertisements in local newspapers, with the result health authorities, police authorities and local councils—in that newspaper revenues are declining. At the same all the various institutions that underpin local government time, local authority newspapers are taking advertising and local democracy. The truth is that local newspapers revenue. The Committee had some concern about that no longer cover those things. We no longer see someone when we took evidence, and it may be necessary to take from the local paper sitting in the corner at every action. meeting of the local council or its sub-committees or in However, there are other elements in the problem. meetings of the health authority. That coverage is The present crisis faces not only local newspapers, but disappearing from local newspapers, and we should at local radio and regional television. The Government least consider whether there is a case for public service have come up with the interesting idea of using part of reporting to be made available to anybody who wishes the licence fee to fund independently financed news to carry it, be that local newspapers, local radio or consortiums, and that might help local newspapers, local TV. which could play a significant part in such consortiums Similarly, we no longer have every newspaper if they go ahead. represented in the Gallery of the House of Commons. We could also do something about the competition Papers rely on the Press Association to supply them regime. The Committee was told to expect that almost with independent and objective content and to tip them every area of the country would be served by just one off if anything dramatic happens in the Chamber. There local newspaper in the future. That should not necessarily may be a case for considering whether the same kind of worry us, because there is competition from a lot of service should be extended to local council chambers different sources, so it is not a case of allowing a and the other local institutions that are so important. monopoly to develop. We need to look at the competition How that would be financed is a matter for debate. rules again to take account of alternative news provision. There is a case for it to receive public support, and if so Interesting experiments are taking place with paid-for the licence fee is an obvious source. We need to have online content. Like the hon. Member for Sittingbourne that debate. I agree with the hon. Member for Sutton and Sheppey, I will watch with great interest how News and Cheam that if we allow local newspapers to continue International gets on if it seeks to impose pay walls on to close and to withdraw from their terribly important its content. There are two villains in the piece, particularly local role in sustaining our democracy, we shall all in this country. The first is Google, which aggregates suffer. content and allows consumers to bypass pay walls. Google’s UK managing director assured us that Google was a beneficial influence and that it strongly supported 3.20 pm local newspapers. If that is the case, it needs to do more, although it has begun to take steps to address the Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s problem. Bush) (Lab): I am pleased to speak again in the series of The other villain is the BBC. As long as it provides debates that have taken place in this Chamber on this online content for nothing, it will be difficult for local subject. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sutton and newspapers or, indeed, any news organisations to charge Cheam (Mr. Burstow) on securing the debate. What for content. I am not necessarily suggesting that the gives me particular pleasure is the fact that on each BBC should charge for all its online content, but the occasion the number of hon. Members who attend current situation is an obstacle, which will make things grows, and the penny appears to have dropped on all hard for other providers. sides that the issue is not party political. It is an issue on which all three parties are guilty, at local level, and Mr. Don Foster (Bath) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman which is a serious threat to local democracy and perhaps not accept that another way forward might be to enable wider democracy. the BBC to go ahead with its original plans for local I can do no better than to use a quotation to sum up websites, but to populate them with news gathered by where we are in the borough that may suffer most from local newspaper and radio , who would then the problem—Hammersmith and Fulham. Andrew Gilligan be paid for their work? wrote in his blog last week: Mr. Whittingdale: Like me, the hon. Gentleman will “One of the biggest threats to journalism is the growth of remember local newspapers’ fury at the suggestion that Britain’s new state press—free propaganda papers, either weekly the BBC should provide local news. He might be right, or fortnightly, produced at great public expense by local authorities and delivered to all homes. The idea is to destroy the independent but such an arrangement would be regarded with huge local press, thus ensuring that the only news you read about your suspicion. It was suggested at the time that the BBC local council is written by your local council…The frontline of would use material gathered by local newspapers, but the struggle is the Tory flagship borough of Hammersmith and the proportion was likely to be small. The local newspaper Fulham, which looked like being the first place in Britain where industry is likely to regard such an arrangement more official news became the only news. The council’s propaganda as a threat than an opportunity. However, it may be that organ, H&F News, is a brilliant facsimile of a proper local we should at least consider it. paper—unless, of course, you are looking for any mention of the Labour Party, or any criticism of the council, the police, the NHS I am conscious of the number of people who want to or any other branch of officialdom. The local independent paid-for speak, so I want to raise one final point. I do not fully paper, the Fulham and Hammersmith Chronicle, meanwhile, was share the view of the hon. Member for Sittingbourne on its last legs, with a circulation of 1,500.” 281WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 282WH

Now, however, the Chronicle”— Philip Davies: In the hon. Gentleman’s area, as I as the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam mentioned understand it, the cost is not the big issue. My earlier— understanding, from what the local authority says, is “has decided to fight back. It too is going free—boosting its that its publication does not lose money, because of the circulation to 72,000 with no loss of editorial jobs—to take the advertising revenue that it brings in. However, does he fight to H&F News.” agree that it is not just propaganda that is a problem The blog also praises the hon. Member for Shipley with local council newspapers? It is the fact that it is (Philip Davies) for his robust comments on the matter propaganda masquerading as independent news. Whereas in the Select Committee and says that some councils are real, independent news will expose wrongdoing in the already closing their newspapers. I shall be asking local authority, such publications merely highlight all Hammersmith and Fulham council why, from next the supposedly positive news stories that they want to week, it will not close its newspaper, as its only excuse get out. for publishing one was that there was no independent Mr. Slaughter: The hon. Gentleman is right. I shall local paper in circulation. finish by responding to that point. The cost is an issue, The other unusual thing about the debate is that it because the admitted cost is £750,000 and some of gives me an opportunity to praise Trinity Mirror, of that—about half—is subsidised from advertising, a large which I have been somewhat critical in the past. I hope chunk of which is advertising by the council itself, or its that its ambition in this case—clearly it has the necessary mates in the public sector; the rest is taken from the resources—will be followed throughout the country. local newspapers, to help run them down. However, the Clearly it recognises a commercial threat, because although actual cost, when one considers the on-costs and hidden a minority of local authorities may be affected at present, costs that councils provide, runs into millions of pounds. you can bet your life—it is human nature, is it not?—that With the other advertising that is an issue. However—I all those councillors sitting in their offices would love a direct this comment to those who are fortunate enough completely supportive and uncritical press. I am concerned not to suffer from the problem at the moment—I agree about what will happen if we do not tackle what is that at root the problem is that however much the happening and nip it in the bud. Conservative party or, indeed, any other party spends What action do the Government intend to take to on party political material such as glossy leaflets or stop politicisation through the council press, and the DVDs, at least it is clear where the money comes from. destruction of the independent local press? We will The pernicious nature of the material we are discussing shortly need action at national level. This cannot be left is that it suppresses any news hostile to a particular to Trinity Mirror and the other newspaper groups. Let political party—whichever it is—and exclusively promotes us make no mistake: the problem goes further than the its interests. That is what is happening in local authorities watering down or manipulation of news. Very large throughout the country. sums of money—millions of pounds—are involved. Yes, the issue is one of press freedom and of support Hammersmith and Fulham admits to spending £750,000 for our very good local newspapers, which I want to on the newspaper; but that is only the cost that it praise—particularly the Fulham and Hammersmith admits. It is the tip of the iceberg. There are magazines, Chronicle: I wish it success in the first issue on Friday. newsletters, banners in the streets, poster vans driven However, the matter goes deeper—to the root of local around the borough, whole tube stations kitted out democracy, and if we are not careful, because national with advertisements, and online material, all advertising and European elections are targeted as well, to democracy the Conservative party, in effect, in all but name. generally. I have said this previously, and am glad to say I shall give two examples of what I have described. it before a larger audience today: I ask hon. Members to One was a letter sent to tenants and leaseholders in be warned—the threat may be the most serious we face. response to a Labour party publication, directly criticising We would not tolerate it at national level. We resile from the Hammersmith Labour party. I feel sorry for the regimes around the world that suppress a free press in Conservatives. They had only £200,000 to spend politically such a way, to promote state propaganda. Why should in my constituency last year. Clearly they were a bit that attitude not apply to our town halls? short with regard to what the council could provide in Mrs. Janet Dean (in the Chair): Three more hon. subsidy by putting out that material. Just before Christmas Members want to speak; if they all speak for only two a glossy six-page brochure went out about Building minutes they will all get in. Schools for the Future. I could find no mention of its being a Government-funded scheme, but I found a 3.28 pm half-page picture of my opponent saying that he had Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): I shall not keep been invited into schools to talk to pupils, with a hon. Members long at all. hagiography of him and an account of what he did. In my borough of Hillingdon the demise of local I received an e-mail today from the borough solicitor, papers has been going on for some time. I recognise the about that picture and publication: problems that have been discussed: the rise of the “We recognise this is a sensitive political period and we regret internet and of council publications—we have had one the final sentence of the article we published. The council’s normal procedure for vetting potentially controversial publicity under both Conservative and Labour councils and I do did not work properly on this occasion and I apologise for this not think that it interfered with the circulation of local and for any dissatisfaction you feel as a result. The newsletter has papers. I would probably put it down mostly to something been removed from schools, libraries and the council’s websites, else. I agree with the hon. Member for Nuneaton and no further copies of the article will be distributed.” (Mr. Olner), who is not now in his place—and I am not They must think I was born yesterday. Such things a businessman who knows that much about the press—that happen on a regular, weekly basis. Hon. Members may one of the problems has been chronic lack of investment regard it as a warning if they will. in local newspapers. 283WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 284WH

[Mr. John Randall] that in the next stage of the development of policy, we will keep in place the mechanism of the summit that we Large multinational or national companies have come had last April, so that we can be ahead of the game, along and diminished the number of journalists, and rather than continuously responding to crises. diminished their skills, to the point where the Gazette series, which is the one we have in the London borough 3.32 pm of Hillingdon, has its offices in Chertsey, which to all Mr. Don Foster (Bath) (LD): I congratulate my hon. intents and purposes is a million miles away. The people Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) one talks to—the reporters, of whom there are one or on securing the debate, which has demonstrated, for two on the ground, operating with a laptop and a digital once, all-party concern about an issue—an all-party phone—tend not to understand the area, so people are desire that action be taken. My hon. Friend described not interested in what is in the newspaper. Advertisers local and regional newspapers as the lifeblood of local like me do not think it is worth while to advertise, so democracy—words that echo those of the Secretary of things go down the pan. State. They are also very similar to those of Lord The local newspaper is a fundamental part of the Mandelson, who recently described local newspapers as whole. The internet will never replace it, because many the people, including many of the more vulnerable people, “bedrock of local democracy and public life”. do not have the internet. The local newspaper is a very That has been reflected by all hon. Members who have important thing, and we must do something, but it is no spoken. No one denies the vital importance of such good just blaming one set of things. newspapers in holding bodies such as local councils and primary care trusts to account, reporting from our local 3.29 pm courts, as we heard, or simply providing local news and local information. We all agree that we need a vigorous John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): This local and regional press. is about the sixth debate that we have had on local newspapers in the past two years. May I say to my hon. We also heard that there have been problems with the Friend the Member for Sittingbourne and Sheppey continued existence of local and regional newspapers. (Derek Wyatt), on the proposals that he made, that Threats have come particularly from structural changes actually the Government have listened. When we had as more and more people get their news and information the debate about 18 months ago, proposals were made from local radio and online. For once, we have heard a that the Secretary of State should convene a meeting of lot of praise for Trinity Mirror. We should perhaps all sides of the industry. He did that last April, and reflect on the fact that it has seen huge increases in the there was a summit at which a number of us from the profits that it takes from its online assets. In fact, in National Union of Journalists parliamentary group 2008, it spent £13 million acquiring new digital assets were present, along with representatives of newspaper and, in the same year, closed 28 of its local newspapers. conglomerates and other representatives of the media. We have seen, as a result of that problem, other My hon. Friend’s exact proposal that there should be a problems coming along. We have seen a decline in form of public funding to support local news and local advertising revenue. That is critical because local newspapers quality journalism was taken on board. A presentation depend very much on local advertising revenue. We are was made by Ofcom, and the Government have introduced also seeing the growing threat, as we heard, from the the Digital Economy Bill, which includes the proposals increasing number of councils producing publications on independently financed news consortiums. that are newspaper-like and magazine-like. Some 90 per I hope that that will provide part of the solution to cent. of councils now produce such publications. the problem that we have been trying to address during As a result, 60 newspapers closed last year. That is this series of debates. I agree with the hon. Member for about 5 per cent. of the total. A number of daily Uxbridge (Mr. Randall) that part of the problem has newspapers have changed to be weekly newspapers. been both a lack of investment in the good times, when Hundreds of qualified journalists have lost their jobs, companies such as Trinity Mirror were making significant and many of the high street offices of our local newspapers profits, and management not looking to the long-term have been closed. As we heard from the Chairman of future. the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, the hon. Member The Government have listened to those discussions for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale), and the debates here, and I welcome their proposals. the situation seems destined to get worse. My only reason for speaking in the debate is to ask the That said, I was delighted to read in a briefing from Secretary of State to give us an indication of the time the Newspaper Society that it thinks that there is an scale now. We know that the tenders were put out for element of optimism: the decline in advertising has the pilots for the consortiums in November. It would be begun to stabilise, readership is currently being maintained, useful to know the time scale for the decision making on and local papers are availing themselves of opportunities the process. That is also important for the sake of the in connection with the web and multi-media. staff, because we are worried about the loss of quality The reason for the threat continuing comes from journalism, which was based on quality journalists. three key areas. We have already heard about the first Assurances need to be given—for example, that existing from my hon. Friend. It relates to the current requirement staff within the area of the consortiums are protected for councils to publish statutory notices—planning notices, by TUPE and will be transferred across into the new compulsory purchase orders, footpath orders and so consortiums if they are established. In addition, an on—in a local newspaper. There was a real threat that assurance is needed that there will be full involvement that requirement would be removed. My hon. Friend of the trade unions in the discussions on those proposals rightly says that it was great to hear on 21 December the at the next stage. An assurance also needs to be given Government saying that that would not happen. 285WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 286WH

However, I say to the Minister that that threat may got into a situation in which there is unfair competition still be a real one, because my understanding is that a that is damaging what my hon. Friend the Member for number of councils have now either had their local Sutton and Cheam calls the lifeblood of local democracy. publications registered as a newspaper so that they can What can we do? First, councils should be able to be the body—the organ—in which those statutory notices find ways of working more effectively with their local are put, or are considering ways of doing that. The newspapers. They could take out longer-term advertising threat has not totally gone and I would be grateful if the contracts. They could run long-term campaigns in their Minister responded on what the Government are doing local press. They could distribute their product alongside about that. the local newspaper, sharing the distribution costs. We The second cause of concern is the fact that some of could also be looking, as the Government already are, those publications are being used for councils’ own at the local authority publicity code to see whether we advertising and therefore advertising is being taken can firm that up. away from local newspapers. The Minister might want The Government are doing that; they have 300 responses to comment on what the Government themselves are in. We await the outcome, which I hope will include doing, because the Government, too, have started to council papers being required to concentrate on relevant withdraw some of their own advertising opportunities local council information, not on general local news, from local papers. Perhaps there is a course of action and certainly not on sudokus. We should also reduce that they could take in that respect. the frequency with which they are published. It is ludicrous to have cases such as those in Tower Hamlets, Greenwich, Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Will the Hammersmith and Fulham, Waltham Forest and elsewhere hon. Gentleman give way? that we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam. Those are the things that could be Mr. Foster: I will happily give way, but I do want to looked at. Codes are one thing, but what we need is real be quick. action. My biggest worry is that when the Government Mr. Turner: This problem does not affect the Isle of requested the independent bodies to look at the competition Wight yet, I am pleased to say. If people on the Isle of issues, they refused. We now have a situation in which they Wight—or, for that matter, anywhere else—have their are looking only at whether the council papers provide own businesses, they keep the money on the island and value for money, and that is not good enough. It is it circulates on the island. absolutely crucial that the Office of Fair Trading now carry out an investigation into the competition issue. Mr. Foster: Indeed. 3.40 pm My third concern is that council publications, as we heard, are accepting private advertising. For instance, Mr. Edward Vaizey (Wantage) (Con): I am grateful 90 per cent. of the publications of local councils in for the opportunity to speak under your chairmanship London already accept or already contain private for the first time, Mrs. Dean. I congratulate the hon. advertising, so there is real cause for concern. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) on calling this excellent and important debate. As the hon. Member The newspaper industry is arguing, rightly, that councils for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) indicated, should be running core services, not newspapers, and this is the fourth time that I have participated in a certainly should not be producing propaganda. They debate on the future of local and regional news, and we should not be using council tax payers’ money for that may even have debated the matter on five or six occasions purpose. The industry is concerned about local and in the past two years. That is a reflection of not only the regional newspapers being undermined by such organs importance of the issue, but the keenness of hon. Members taking advertising, and so on. to suck up to their local newspaper editors to improve It is interesting to hear what each newspaper thinks. I their local coverage. I sucked up like mad before the hope that hon. Members will forgive me for referring to expenses scandal and a lot of good it did me—I can tell my own local paper. The editor of that paper wrote to Members—with my local press. me only today saying: It is important to start the debate from first principles. “The aim of any local newspaper is to provide unbiased, We are debating the importance of local unbiased news balanced news. If we don’t provide it they won’t buy us. The local and of investigative reporting. To an extent, I take the council meanwhile is there to provide services for residents. But if remarks of people such as the editor of The Bath they don’t provide them, then who will let people know? It is certainly not the in-house council newspaper. Chronicle with a pinch of salt. I am not sure that most newspaper editors would say that it was their job to Local councils have a right, and indeed a duty, to inform their residents about what they are up to. However, without balance provide unbiased reporting. There is a tendency in these and independence, council newspapers can be seen as, at best, debates to pretend that all our local newspaper editors biased products and at worst simple propaganda. And that is why are somehow the local version of Woodward and Bernstein, local newspapers are so vital for local democracy for giving constantly uncovering corruption in high places. The people all the facts without the prejudice. business of a local newspaper editor is to sell the local As a newspaper we can reflect the good things that local newspaper, and local newspapers as much as national councils get up to—and we do so, far more than we are often ones can distort or sensationalise the news to attract given credit for. But we can also be there to represent local people readers. who don’t feel they have been well served and want their voices It is also important to put the situation in context. As heard.” the excellent note from the Newspaper Society that has The editor continues in a similar vein. been circulated to Members participating in the debate, There are arguments on both sides. There is an argument points out: that says that councils have a duty to provide information “It would…be wrong to paint a picture of an industry in and so on, but equally there are concerns that we have crisis”. 287WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 288WH

[Mr. Edward Vaizey] and what we now get which are things masquerading as independent newspapers. I think that the hon. Gentleman Many of the titles that have closed are free weeklies in a understands that, and if he wants to address that issue I competitive local marketplace, and there is still a plethora am sure that we would all like to hear him. of news sources, not only the 1,300 regional newspapers that have been referred to, but the 159 community radio Mr. Vaizey: I certainly shall. As I said, the Conservatives stations, the success and vibrancy of which over the have pledged to abolish the communications allowance. past five or six years the Minister and I were debating I am a huge admirer of the hon. Member for Sittingbourne only yesterday in Committee, and of course BBC local and Sheppey (Derek Wyatt) and regret deeply his retirement, news and websites and commercial local radio. Such is but it was astonishing to hear that his own website paid the proximity to power that the Conservatives now have for by the taxpayer is now beginning to put local that I have started to receive the Goldman Sachs media newspapers out of business. and telecoms daily update, and in between counting its humungous bonuses, Goldman Sachs has found time to Derek Wyatt: I wish that it was paid for by the put a buy note on Johnston Press and Trinity Mirror, taxpayer. which perhaps indicates that those news organisations are healthier than we had perceived. Mr. Vaizey: Ah, I stand corrected. Let me get on to the substance of what I wanted to say. First, there is We also have to acknowledge that technology is changing, another element of hypocrisy that concerns me. We with blogs and so on beginning to fill a back gap. On have talked about the code of conduct for publicity in “The Westminster Hour”, an excellent programme that local councils. Let us not forget that it was this Government goes out on Radio 4 on Sunday evenings at 10 o’clock in 2001 that relaxed that code and allowed councils to with some of the most talented hon. Members participating, cover issues that— I heard a report from John Beasley about a group in that was holding its excellent local Member, Mr. Pelling rose— my hon. Friend the Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant), to account, although there is not much to Mr. Vaizey: I am afraid that I cannot take any more hold him to account for apart from the excellence of his interventions, even from one of our most eminent service. Local blogs and so on are therefore coming out; independent Members. [Interruption.] Or is it UKIP? I there is a technology revolution. cannot remember. The Government allowed local councils The hon. Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s to cover issues that were not their core responsibility. Bush (Mr. Slaughter) and I have jousted before on local The hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster), in a typically newspapers, and he has even had the temerity to refer to polite Liberal Democrat fashion, gave the impression my contradicting him as somehow being churlish. I am that the Government are on top of the issue. In fact, sure that he would agree, if he were able to just step they announced a review of the code in December 2008, outside of himself for one minute and look objectively, and the consultation closed in March 2009. We were that it is hard to take his remarks seriously, knowing promised the Government’s response in December 2009 that he was the local council leader who created HFM. and then on 7 January, but it still has not appeared. The That was a local glossy free magazine put out by the Government are dithering, and we cannot go on like council; I have a picture of one of its covers here. The this; they must come out and say what they are going to titles are “Cross Roads: Lollipop John waves goodbye”, do. We do not support independently-funded news with a picture of a nice lollipop man, “What’s on”, consortiums, as that is the Government simply recreating “News”, “My Borough”, “Interviews” and “Letters”. the old analogue system of regional news that nobody There is nothing to say that it is from the council. The wants anymore, particularly in this internet age, nor do only difference between the hon. Gentleman’s publication we support the Government’s proposals to top-slice and and H&F News is that his, because it was put out by a undermine the independence of the BBC. We will protect Labour council, lost £400,000 a year. The current the BBC from the Government, and work day and night publication put out a Conservative council costs the to protect its independence from people such as the council tax payer absolutely nothing. What else upsets Minister. me about the hypocrisy of some Members is that Labour What do we intend to do? Many Tory councils are Members voted themselves— already leading the way. Lancashire Tory council has Several hon. Members rose— closed down its newspaper. The hon. Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush will, of course, want to Mr. Vaizey: I think that that will appear as “interruption” praise Mayor for closing down The Londoner, in Hansard. Labour Members voted themselves a £10,000 as he wrote all the time to to tell him communications allowance, and I hope that the hon. that he was wasting £3 million of council tax payers’ Gentleman will now pledge to use that allowance to money. takeapageinH&F News, which goes out free to every resident. Several hon. Members rose— Mr. Slaughter: I promise to not hurt the hon. Gentleman’s Mr. Vaizey: I will not give way. We intend to review feelings on this occasion, but I must defend the integrity the local authority code and tighten it up. We also have of lollipop persons across London. I really thought that campaigned rigorously for the relaxation of cross-media the hon. Gentleman was getting it at last—I sound like ownership rules, to allow media companies to build up the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) now. across different platforms—newspaper, web, radio and There is a difference between council publications that local TV.We welcomed the announcement in November are clearly council publications, giving lots of tedious that Ofcom will recommend that relaxation, and we but useful information to people in a non-political way, would support that in the Digital Economy Bill. 289WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 290WH

I am working up to our exciting proposals for a Mr. Redwood: I wonder whether the Minister is practising network of ultra-local television. That is what I call for jobs other than that of comedian, as he might need leadership. We have out for consultation Roger Parry’s some other skills. document “Creating Viable, Local Multi-media Companies in the UK”, and I advise the Minister, who does not Mr. Simon: I shall take the right hon. Gentleman’s have a policy on that issue, to respond to that consultation, remark on the chin, with thanks. because he is clearly unable to publish the conclusions The debate has tended to be about council free sheets to his own. That proposal would put in place a network rather than local newspapers and the tremendous pressures of 81 local television stations, combined with newspaper, that they are under. The tendency has been to assume web and radio, and provide the ultra-local news and that free sheets constitute a serious pressure on commercial accountability that local communities desperately need. local newspapers. We clearly do not know to what extent that is the case. We do not know exactly how 3.49 pm many, but 60-something council free sheets are taking The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, paid advertising out of a total of 420 local authority Media and Sport (Mr. Siôn Simon): It is a tremendous newspaper areas. However, we do not have good evidence pleasure, Mrs. Dean, to serve under your chairmanship to show the prevalence of the practice. again. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) on securing this debate, which Mr. Burstow: That is the key point that I wanted to has been widely attended and intelligently and cogently make today—we do not yet have a robust evidence base argued. to allow us to be clear about the matter. There is plenty I shall begin with a jocular remark. I will then reply of anecdotal and other evidence of the sort that I to points raised during the debate. I shall also take mentioned earlier, and it makes a compelling case, but interventions from Members who have not already surely the Office of Fair Trading should consider the intervened. If I have any time left— competition matters, as the Audit Commission will clearly not do so. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): So that the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Vaizey), who speaks for the Tories, cannot be accused of hypocrisy, may I ask him Mr. Simon: It has taken a while, but we are told that to have a word with the local Tory-controlled council in the Audit Commission is about to reach a conclusion my borough? It publishes a newspaper at public expense on what has turned out to be a relatively constrained set but refuses to give the contact details of the local MP. of issues. Once we have those conclusions, the next step How political can it get? will be to present that information to the Office of Fair Trading and ask it, perhaps with Ofcom, to consider the Mr. Simon: That sounds like political abuse of the question of competition and the potential impact on existing code, and I am sure that Members on all sides the paid-for newspaper market. of the House, including the hon. Member for Wantage, would deprecate it. Mr. Vaizey: Will the Minister let us know when his colleagues in the Department for Communities and Mr. Slaughter: The hon. Member for Castle Point is Local Government are to publish their proposals to lucky that I am not doing the four Yorkshiremen skit. revise the local authority code on publicity? My name is prohibited from appearing in the Hammersmith and Fulham News, even though, as the Mr. Simon: We now change subject to the local House will have heard, my opponent, a prospective authority code. I am told that the Department’s conclusions parliamentary candidate, gets half a page to himself. on the code are to be published imminently. However, I agree with the hon. Member for Wantage (Mr. Vaizey). I would like to praise Boris Johnson for Mr. Andrew Turner: One point has not been raised. It cancelling The Londoner, but I do not need to because is argued that we should keep profits locally, rather than he is on the front of the Hammersmith and Fulham nationally—across the width of the country—but it News, with a number of other Tory politicians appearing troubles me that more and more newspapers are being inside. bought up nationally rather than by local people, yet it Mr. Simon: It is fair to say that everyone understands is the local people who should benefit most. why my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush (Mr. Slaughter) is unhappy. Mr. Simon: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point. I want quickly to get on with my jocular remark— One hopes that over time there will continue to be a although it may not be good enough to stand up to all blend between locally and nationally owned local this waiting. The hon. Member for Wantage talked newspapers. As the hon. Member for Maldon and East about sucking up to local newspaper editors. Last week, Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) told us, Claire Enders in a debate on the Video Recordings Bill, he was says that the market will shrink by half. Any papers that extravagantly sucking up to Matthew Parris. This afternoon, exist in that market, whatever their ownership structure, he was sucking up to Polly Toynbee. I take the opportunity can be considered a democratic good in the local to salute Alan Watkins, the greatest living newspaper community. For the moment, we will have to settle for columnist, and to recommend his book “Brief Lives”, that. which is a masterpiece on the art of column writing. My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and [HON.MEMBERS: “What about the jocular comment?”] Shepherd’s Bush was right to raise the question of free That is what passes for humour when I am on my feet. papers potentially having their context changed as To a large extent, the debate has been more about the commercially owned papers go free. It will change the rights and wrongs and abuses of council free sheets. landscape. The hon. Member for Croydon, Central 291WH Local Newspapers13 JANUARY 2010 Local Newspapers 292WH

[Mr. Simon] Bush makes against propaganda are unanswerable. It is for the DCLG, in its revision of the code, to come up (Mr. Pelling) referred to a local authority newspaper with convincing answers. However, it might be that the that was costing some £700,000 a year. Given such code needs not to be revised but adhered to. sums, I shall be astonished if Trinity Mirror or any other commercial operator in this hard-pressed sector Mr. Burstow: On the point about value for money, will invest for long at those prices. does the Minister not agree that it would make sense for local authorities to be required to publish in a clear Mr. Pelling: I said that it was costing £20,000 a form all information about the costs incurred in the month, which is about £250,000 a year. However, the production of local authority publications and newspapers, total communications spend is £2 million. so that people can see much more clearly whether the expenditure gives value for money. Mr. Simon: I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush. Mr. Simon: That is something for DCLG Ministers to answer. They received 300 responses to the consultation, Mr. Slaughter: I said that the disclosed cost was and they will reply imminently. £750,000. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Minister that Trinity Mirror is taking a bold step. We My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington will see how deep its pockets are when it comes up (John McDonnell) spoke about a timetable for against state-subsidised competition that is completely independently funded news consortiums. This morning, bankrolled by the taxpayer. Does my hon. Friend not we announced eight successful bids for the three pilots. see that there is a role for the Government here? As I We intend to stick to our timetable. We will have reached said earlier, we cannot rely on commercial companies to a preferred bidder status in each of the pilot areas by compete with people who are bankrolled by the taxpayer. March. It will be clear before the election who is to run What will the Government do about it? the independently funded news consortiums in the English, Scottish and Welsh areas. Mr. Simon: As I said, the DCLG will imminently report its views on the matter. Mrs. Janet Dean (in the Chair): Order. The debate is There is another side of the coin, which is not represented concluded, but there is a Division in the main Chamber. by my Department and may not find great favour in the The sitting will be suspended for about 15 minutes if Chamber. However, it is important that councils there is one Division, and 25 minutes if there are two. communicate with their citizens—good information is vital—and that they do so in a way that represents good value for the taxpayer. The arguments that my hon. 4pm Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. 293WH 13 JANUARY 2010 Back to Work Initiative (Wales) 294WH

Back to Work Initiative (Wales) apprised of what others were doing. Where there was scope for joint working and co-operation, it should be flagged up at an early stage. Competition should be 4.18 pm minimised, co-operation maximised and ignorance Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab): In the past 13 eliminated. The Minister of State listened carefully to years, the number of people employed in the Vale of our request, and we were made a city strategy pilot. Clwyd, my constituency, has gone from 23,000 in 1997 One of the first tasks that the Rhyl city strategy faced to 29,000 today. That is the fifth biggest increase in the involved governance arrangements. We did not want to number of people employed in a constituency among become an arm of the county council; we wanted the 40 parliamentary seats in Wales. Five of the top six flexibility and the ability to respond rapidly to the issues biggest increases are in north Wales constituencies, facing us. We decided to set up a community interest which is something that I am very proud about. company. I believe that of the 15 pilot areas in the UK, The St. Asaph business park in my constituency, we are the only one with a CIC. It was proposed by Ian which was built by the previous Conservative Government Eldred, the head at the time of Clwyd Leisure, another CIC. at a cost of £11 million, was empty for 10 years. There With city strategy status came additional funding are now 3,500 jobs on that business park. The Labour allowing the employment of key personnel who Government have applied for objective 1 funding, which professionalised our approach to unemployment in Rhyl. was granted in 2000. The previous Conservative They include Ali Thomas, the inspirational local manager Government did not even apply. of Rhyl city strategy, and Julia Cain, whose lateral The issue is not the total number of jobs in my thinking on employment has led to engagements for constituency but their distribution, especially in poorer ex-offenders caring for bees in an apiary. I will come to areas. In 2002, I asked for the unemployment statistics that later. Other initiatives developed local butchers and for my county of Denbighshire. There are 32 wards in fishmongers in Rhyl. Those two officers were ably helped Denbighshire. Most unemployment was concentrated by Jennie Walker and Suzanne Jeffrey. in two wards: the south-west ward of Rhyl, the council estate ward in which I was born and brought up, and Two projects illustrate our success. The funding the west ward of Rhyl. administered by the RCS comes from a variety of sources. The biggest source is the DWP through deprived I thought that was unfair, so I asked the professionals area funding and specific grants made to the Rhyl city what joint action was being taken to counteract strategy. The Welsh Assembly Government have also unemployment. Organisations were working in silos, stepped up to the mark. Their Department for Children, and few were working together, so I formed an Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills provides big unemployment group in 2002. Initially, I asked about chunks of funding for basic skills. 20 agencies to join, including representatives from the Department for Work and Pensions, the careers service, The funding is critical to raising the skill profiles of the local college, the economic regeneration team, the local workers, many of whom face multiple barriers, local education authority, the health service, the police including low literacy and numeracy, drug and alcohol and the probation service, as well as one individual I problems and low self-esteem and confidence. I pay would particularly like to mention: Gareth Matthews, tribute to DCELLS officer Ian Williams, a key member who then worked for Working Links. I believe that he is of the city strategy team who has secured much-needed one of the finest practitioners of the back to work funding for our projects. The core funding is often agenda in the whole country. supplemented by other agencies and bodies, sometimes Meetings were convened about four times a year. We in the form of gifts in kind and staffing contributions. set our minds to improving work opportunities in those One project is the Dewi Sant centre, which I have two wards. We met and made progress for three years, mentioned. It is run by a chap called Geoff Bainbridge, but the catalyst for the group was the DWP’s announcement who works with ex-offenders, many of whom have that it would form city strategy pilots across 15 UK multiple problems. One initiative that he has come up cities, including bigger cities such as Birmingham and with to engage them is an apiary on the outskirts of Glasgow. I approached the then Minister—now the Rhyl where ex-offenders look after bees and develop Secretary of State for Scotland—and asked him whether allotments. Rhyl could become a pilot city, even though it is a Welsh town of only 27,000 people. I asked that we be considered Another is Football in the Community, run by Jamie for the seaside pilot for the back to work agenda in Digwood and Tracey Jones at Rhyl football club. They 50 traditional UK seaside towns. use sport as a means of engaging unemployed people by The Minister listened, and we did some further lobbying training and employing young people in the Rhyl area with the then Minister of State—now Minister of State, as football coaches. The workers then go out into the Department for Culture, Media and Sport—my right community and on to council estates to engage young hon. Friend the Member for Barking (). people and keep them fit, healthy and on the straight She summed up the problem with the back to work and narrow. It is an excellent project. Ministers and TV agenda by discussing her visit to Glasgow, where she crews have come from as far away as Ireland, Scotland learned that 200 different organisations were working, and England to see what we are doing at Rhyl football some in isolation and others in competition, to get club. The work is inspirational. people back to work. The project with perhaps the most visitors is the Rhyl That crystallised for me what we needed to do in my youth action group at the Hub. The project is led by constituency and my home town of Rhyl, which suffered Shane Owen, a grass-roots professional who is setting from so much employment. We needed to ensure that the pace for youth engagement in the UK. The project is everyone involved in the back to work agenda was fully located in the heart of the most deprived ward in Wales 295WH Back to Work Initiative (Wales)13 JANUARY 2010 Back to Work Initiative (Wales) 296WH

[Chris Ruane] have been on her course and she has found employment in the care sector for 92. The key to her success is that and works with young people, providing accommodation she takes a direct and personal interest in each and above the project, youth club facilities, access to top-of- every attendee. She manages the scheme and delivers the-range computers and a retail training unit. the courses. Her clients are taught health and safety The facilities act as a honey pot for young people in theory, diversity, self-respect and communication skills. the area, and the project has 1,000 people on its books. The key to the scheme’s success is that clients have The key to its success is that in the same building are meaningful work placements, for which they receive a most of the professionals who deal with the back to pay packet at the end of the week. Many of the placements work agenda in Rhyl, including Llandrillo college, the are with Clwyd and Alyn housing association, which Rathbone Society, Remploy, Want 2 Work, Serco, Working used to spend tens of thousands of pounds on recruitment Links, the Anti-Poverty Network and Mentrau Iaith. and now uses that money for Pobl@Gwaith. It spots the More office accommodation is being built as we speak. best workers and employs them itself. That is a win-win-win Those organisations pay rent to the Hub, which situation. means that within 18 months, that youth facility in the I ask the Minister to reflect on the benefits of that heart of the community will be self-sufficient. In return, excellent initiative and the difference it has made to at the organisations have access to 1,000 young people in least 100 people in my community. It has given each of the same building as their offices. Synergies between those people back their pride, belonging and sense of organisations are enhanced by the fact that they are in self-worth. The state has also benefited because instead the same building. Again, everyone is a winner because of those people being unemployed, they are employed of the level of co-operation. and paying taxes. I want to mention two groups: Serco and the Wales The police and the probation service have played a Council for Voluntary Action. Serco is a private sector big role in the success of the Rhyl city strategy. I back to work organisation that is leading the way. It has highlight the work of the divisional commander for established an outpost in Rhyl. In the heart of that poor Conwy and Denbighshire, Rob Kirman, and Steve Ray community, it employs 14 local people and hopes to from the probation service. Both have enlightened increase the number to 28. The employees work in a viewpoints on the role of employment in their fields of refurbished building in Edward Henry street in Rhyl. policing and court issues. Both realise that meaningful The WCVA’s national office is in Rhyl. It took some of work and training are the key to an inclusive society. I its functions from Cardiff and located them in Rhyl, in believe our success has resulted in Denbighshire being Morfa hall. the third best crime and disorder reduction partnership As a consequence of the investment by those two of all 360 in England and Wales. prestigious organisations, other organisations are following Rob Kirman came up with the idea of having suit by investing in the town and employing local people. unemployment advisers in custody suites. I asked the I pay tribute to Dafydd Williams of the WCVA for the Minister to monitor the progress of that idea. The investment, the work he does and the role he plays in the adviser will literally have a captive audience. Many future jobs fund and the Rhyl city strategy. people are in the custody suite for 10 to 15 hours, and Jobs are provided by the private sector. I highlight the they have certain issues. An adviser will be there to give work that Tesco has promised to do in my constituency, advice on health, drugs, alcohol, basic skills and where it intends to open two stores, one in Prestatyn employment. and one in Denbigh. Asda hopes to open a store in the west ward of Rhyl. I wrote to Tesco to ask if it would None of the schemes would have been successful participate in our national-local employment partnership without Rhyl college. The local community college is project at 50 per cent., meaning that when the stores key to many of the successes. It offers top-class training open, 50 per cent. of the people employed there will to the many community initiatives. The principal, Celia have come off the unemployment register. Tesco has Jones, is a passionate believer in community education agreed. That could make a huge difference: 1,000 people and open access. She has built on the success of previous employed and 500 of them off the register. I thank principals, Irene Norman and Jerry Jenson, and the Tesco for that and hope that Asda follows suit. college has just won a merit award for open access in the UK further education beacon awards. The college is One novel project—please pardon the pun—is the going from strength to strength. initiative of the author David Hughes, who grew up on the same council estate as me and wrote a book about Rhyl city strategy has not rested on its laurels. It has his experience. He is now turning it into a film using scanned the skies for new DWP national initiatives and children and young people from the council estate as applied to be part of them. In the past three months, it extras. He will teach them the media skills needed to has been successful in bidding for the future jobs fund. make the film. It has received £2.4 million to put 340 young people Pobl@Gwaith is an existing initiative that the Rhyl between the ages of 18 and 25 back to work. There is a city strategy has helped. It is run by Clwyd and Alyn £1 billion national investment. Such young people will housing association, under the Pennaf banner and is not be left on the margins, as happened in previous one of the best unemployment projects I have come recessions. The offer of a job and training will ensure across. It runs on a shoestring, but its impact on the that they have the skills, self-confidence and work record community and the unemployed is massive. It is headed to access long-term employment when the upturn in the by Rukhsana Nugent, who is inspirational. She works economy comes later this year. with clients, some of whom have been unemployed for The future jobs fund has also been taken up by the more than 20 years. They include ex-offenders and Wales Council for Voluntary Service and BTCV, which people with alcohol or drug issues. To date, 115 clients will supply additional placements for unemployed young 297WH Back to Work Initiative (Wales)13 JANUARY 2010 Back to Work Initiative (Wales) 298WH people in my constituency. The majority of those young of the best possible practice. It would be good to people will be employed in environmental projects. The replicate that good practice as much as possible and the primary concern of my constituents is the quality and Government are seeking to do that. feel of our local environment, in particular the built This debate is about the efforts being made to tackle environment. The impact of 200 young people planting unemployment. Although my hon. Friend has focused trees and flowerbeds, putting up hanging baskets, laying on his constituency, I am sure he would agree that the hedges and cleaning up derelict land and grot spots will measures he has mentioned can be successful only with be enormous. It makes so much sense. a proactive Government that intervenes effectively. As In conclusion, I shall summarise why we have a the Prime Minister said today, the Government must unique winning formula for the back to work agenda in not stand on the sidelines, but adopt policies and strategies Rhyl. The first reason is the national leadership of the that are about involvement, engagement and stimulating Government, who believe that long-term unemployment the local community. in specific communities must be addressed. I am thankful We can point to the great success of the new deal. In for national initiatives, such as the city strategy, “Fit for Wales alone, the new deal has so far helped more than Work”and the future jobs fund. A hands-off, laissez-faire, 120,000 people into work and more than 55,000 of unemployment-is-a-price-worth-paying attitude will not those were young people, who are especially important help the communities I represent. because we are determined not to have a lost generation. Secondly, I believe our success is to do with partnership We are doing everything that is humanly possible to get at strategic and grass-roots level. There is partnership young people in particular back into work. We can also between the public, private and voluntary sectors and point to the future jobs fund in a more general sense. between all levels of government, including local Some £1 billion investment will create 170,000 new jobs government, the Welsh Assembly Government, the UK throughout the United Kingdom. Again, that will focus Government and—dare I say it—the EU, through objective on young people. 1 funding. There is a partnership in which ideas, initiatives The co-operation to which my hon. Friend has referred and funding are shared. is in evidence in a whole raft of local organisations, but Thirdly, the agencies delivering the services are located also, significantly, in relation to the Welsh Assembly in the heart of the communities they serve, not tucked Government. The good partnership arrangements that away on a leafy business park discussing theory. Fourthly, are in place between the Welsh Assembly Government our unique governance arrangement as a community and Jobcentre Plus are certainly delivering for the people interest company has given us the flexibility and who need that support—for example, there is the £32 million independence to achieve results. Want2Work package. So far, that has helped some The Minister has been to see many of the projects in 2,500 people back into work in Wales and has given my constituency, as has the Secretary of State for Wales. added value to the work that has already been conducted Will the Minister relay my request to the Secretary of by Jobcentre Plus. State for Work and Pensions to visit my constituency, We can also talk about the ReAct programme, which look at our successful initiatives and spread such best is, again, a Welsh Assembly Government initiative. That practice throughout the UK? has helped 129 people in Denbighshire to start training to improve their skills and has assisted them to return to 4.37 pm work quickly. Similarly, we can talk about the extra £20 million that has been allocated by the Welsh Assembly The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales Government to tackle youth unemployment in Wales. (Mr. ): I congratulate the hon. Member for All of those measures are extremely important and they Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) on securing this debate are all big macro-national initiatives. What gives them and on his tremendous and assiduous work on behalf added value is how they are put to effective good use. of his constituents to tackle one of the main concerns My hon. Friend has given us a clear and graphic example of this Government, namely unemployment. of the kind of co-operation that can produce concrete The Rhyl city strategy is an extremely good example results. of the best possible practice. My hon. Friend outlined I conclude by saying that, as I said, I am hoping to the partnerships that are in place. He has done great see the excellent work that is being done in Rhyl, and we work in pulling people together and providing coherent will continue to give our support to the excellent initiatives local leadership. He stressed the co-operation between that are taking place. I would also like to make the point the local college, Serco, the Wales Council for Voluntary that there is a clear political divide between the sort of Action, the private sector, Tesco and voluntary measures that have been outlined by my hon. Friend organisations. Such partnership undoubtedly produces and I, and the alternative that is available and on offer. effective results. We experienced that alternative in Wales during the As my hon. Friend said, I have had the privilege of dark years of the 1980s and 1990s, when mass visiting the Rhyl city strategy and seeing the good work unemployment became endemic and a hallmark of Wales. for myself, as has the Secretary of State for Wales. I join We must judge the successful measures that are taking him in paying tribute to Gareth Matthews and all his place against that backdrop. staff for their enthusiasm and the strong leadership The last thing the people of Rhyl, the people of they have provided for the local community. Wales or the people of Britain want to see is the clock My hon. Friend mentioned a number of extremely being turned back to the bad old days of long-term successful initiatives linked to the Rhyl city strategy. He mass unemployment and a whole generation of young mentioned the successful future jobs fund bid, which people being cast to one side and forgotten. As we move will help to create 340 jobs, principally for young people closer to a general election, which I believe will be in the in the local community. He has described a microcosm not too distant future, it is very important that people 299WH Back to Work Initiative (Wales) 13 JANUARY 2010 300WH

[Mr. Wayne David] IBM Pension Scheme realise the active work that is taking place, the good work that is being promised and the clear choice that is 4.43 pm before us and the people of Britain. Sandra Gidley () (LD): I am delighted to have the opportunity to raise this matter today. Given the Mrs. Janet Dean (in the Chair): Wenowmoveonto number of hon. Members in the room for a short the next debate, which is on the supervision and regulation debate, it is a pity that we could not have had a longer of the IBM pension scheme. I inform hon. Members one. I have received representations from the hon. Members that the debate will finish at 5.19 pm. for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner), for Croydon, Central (Mr. Pelling) and my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt), who have expressed support for what I am about to say. Many other hon. Members and I have received large numbers of representations as a result of IBM’s proposed changes to one of its pension schemes. The proposals have particularly impacted on workers in their 50s, who had carefully planned their retirement. Many of those employees feel aggrieved on two levels. First, they feel let down by IBM, which made certain promises about pensions a few years ago and is using the changes to force workers to retire earlier than planned. Secondly, they feel aggrieved that the Government’s pension law does not provide them with sufficient protections. It might be helpful to the Minister if I provide a little background. In 2003-04, many IBMers with a final salary scheme agreed to increase their pensions contributions by 50 per cent. There was much unhappiness about having to do that because the company had taken a pensions holiday for several years and also took funds from the final salary plan to fund the new defined contributions plan. In 2006, further changes were made to the defined benefit plan and there was a clear attempt to move workers to an enhanced defined contributions plan. Workers who did not transfer were effectively punished because they were told that only 67 per cent. of future salary increases would count towards the pension. That makes something of a mockery of the fact that it was supposed to be a final salary plan. Although there was some unhappiness, the company ultimately managed to sell the scheme by promising that funding would be available until 2014 and that there would be no further changes until that date. Let us fast forward three years to 2009, when, seemingly out of the blue, IBM announced further changes. Employees were understandably unhappy that IBM proposed to close the final salary scheme, although there has been an acknowledgement from some that that is the way many company pension schemes are going. There was also concern about the timing of the consultation, which was over the summer holiday period when many people were taking a break, and there was a feeling that the consultation period should have been extended. In the annual report from the pensions trustee, the trustee stated “The trustee feels that the Company has not lived up to the Trustee’s expectations” in asking to change the plan and the scheme so soon after the changes made in July 2006. That is quite a telling and unusual statement. Unfortunately, to add insult to injury, IBM made some hard-hitting changes to the early retirement terms and conditions and that has had a significant impact on workers who had planned to retire over the next few years. The current scheme was that any employee retiring early would have 3 per cent. deducted from the pension for each year they are 301WH IBM Pension Scheme13 JANUARY 2010 IBM Pension Scheme 302WH under the age of 60. That effectively compensates for Sandra Gidley: I think that the chief executive has the fact that a person will be receiving a pension for a been promoted, but more than 800 people nationwide longer period of time. For example, someone retiring at are affected. 54 with an estimated pension of £20,000 would have it reduced by 18 per cent. to £16,400. Stephen Pound (Ealing, North) (Lab): On the subject The changes effective from April mean the discount of chief executives, Sam Palmisano, the chief executive is calculated differently. The calculation is now based of IBM in America has just seen his pension increase by on age before 63, with a market reduction that is estimated $20 million to $40 million. Does the hon. Lady not find to be 6 to 7 per cent. So if we assume a 6 per cent. rate, that difficult to justify? the reduction in the above example would be 54 per Sandra Gidley: Yes, of course. Brendan Riley is part cent., giving a pension of only £9,200. As one constituent of a different pension scheme, and his pension will be put it to me: intact when he moves on to his new job. “They are effectively stealing £7,200 every year for the rest of your life”. Ms (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): I Much of the correspondence received has been rather hope that the hon. Lady understands that the number emotive, for example: of interventions shows the anger in the country on the “In short, IBM is a very wealthy and very successful company, issue and from IBM employees. Does she agree with me even in the midst of the credit crunch. It’s not a question of IBM that IBM’s treatment of its employees is severely affecting not being able to afford to fund its pension scheme, it’s a matter of its reputation? IBM, choosing instead to give the ‘saved’ money to its shareholders.” Sandra Gidley: I very much agree. People will think Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Does twice about whether they want to work for a company the hon. Lady agree that constituents such as mine, who that treats its employees so shoddily. are now having to retire as a consequence of the new orders that have been put in place, feel themselves Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): There immediately aggrieved about the proposals made by is something more fundamental to the matter—I declare this company? an interest, as I know someone who works for IBM— because many such pension schemes, when we look at Sandra Gidley: Very much so. They will lose out, as I their origins, are subject to wage negotiations, and it is will go on to explain. the over-50s in particular who will be hard hurt by that. Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Obviously the For example, sometimes pensions were negotiated to matter is important; a lot of constituents have been offset a wage increase and additional holidays. The affected by the closure of this pension scheme. Does she concern is far more fundamental, and if there was ever agree that this is intimidation and bullying by a very a group of people entitled to get their full pension wealthy company that is taking advantage of its employees? without changes, it is that group of workers. People are being forced out and we need to do more to Sandra Gidley rose— protect them. Mark Hunter (Cheadle) (LD): On that point, it is not Sandra Gidley: People very much feel forced out and just the over-50s who are affected. Several people in my what is happening has been described as redundancy by constituency are affected, and I would like to quote stealth. briefly from an e-mail I received from one gentleman: Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): I would like to reinforce “As I will not be 50 by next April, I have no option to take early the point for the Minister. When my hon. Friend, other retirement now and avoid the worst impact of these changes from hon. Members and I met the chief executive of IBM April 2011. My biggest concerns are therefore that…IBM is not only closing its Direct Benefit pension plan, as are many other UK to discuss these matters, we pressed him on whether UK companies, it is also taking the more dramatic step of there was any reason why the finances of the company massively increasing the penalties for early retirement”, meant it needed to act in such a way. The chief executive a point to which my hon. Friend has referred. My was unable to give any comparative data during that constituent continued: meeting to show why the company was under particular stress, nor did he provide any subsequent data. Frankly, “This will have a devastating impact on my future pension”, if we consider that IBM made record profits in 2008, as it will for people like him. Does she agree that that is that tells me that it has no reason for reneging on the a shabby way to treat loyal and dedicated employees? obligations it has undertaken. Sandra Gidley: Yes, I do. In some respects, the fact Sandra Gidley: My hon. Friend has saved me from that IBM has so many employees who have stayed with having to read out part of my speech later. Certainly, we it loyally is testimony to the sort of employer it had were all appalled that so little explanation had been been. Those employees have now reached their 50s and given. do not feel that they have been treated well after the time, investment and professionalism they have devoted David Cairns (Inverclyde) (Lab): Is the hon. Lady to the company. aware that more than 70 people in IBM Greenock have been forced out the door by this shoddy move? At a Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con): I am time when we are encouraging long-term thinking in grateful to the hon. Lady for her generosity in giving business, the loss of such highly experienced and excellent way so often. She will know that the pension trustee is people will have a detrimental impact on IBM. Perhaps taking IBM to court over that. Would it not be more that is connected with yesterday’s announcement that sensible for the company to hold back on the changes the chief executive who made these decisions has gone. until the legal challenge has been determined? 303WH IBM Pension Scheme13 JANUARY 2010 IBM Pension Scheme 304WH

Sandra Gidley: I had planned to make that point Mr. John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con): In the hon. later. The company is really riding roughshod through Lady’s conversations with IBM, has it produced any the matter. reason why it needs to do that, other than saving money, because it seems very oppressive conduct from the point Mrs. Maria Miller (Basingstoke) (Con): I reiterate of view of my constituents and hers? my support for the hon. Lady’s comments, particularly on behalf of my constituents who are working for IBM, Sandra Gidley: As far as I am aware, it has not given particularly those who are older, who feel that they have any good reasons, but cited the long-term prosperity of effectively been forced into redundancy by the measures the company. It claims that Britain is poorly performing, being taken. Does she share my concerns that IBM is compared to other countries, but the company hit all its unwilling to discuss the details of those constituents’ targets here for making profits, so that is something of a concerns with their local Members of Parliament? surprise. Sandra Gidley: It is very difficult. Some of us had a Interestingly, the company retains the flexibility to meeting with IBM, but it was not an easy meeting to offer a more attractive discount rate. IBM would say obtain and the company was not terribly open. What is that that is so that is can make early retirement decisions almost worst is that its members of staff are gagged on compassionate grounds, but many of the workers from saying anything in the press, so they feel that have expressed the view that that flexibility could also opportunities to highlight the way they have been treated be used, perhaps in a few years’ time, to get rid of by IBM, such as the debate, are very useful. another tranche of the company’s most loyal and experienced workers. Many of them have expressed Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): I am grateful to the regret that the company does not appear to value their hon. Lady, whose constituency neighbours my own—like lifetime commitment and feel that they should be entitled her, I have many constituents who work for IBM. I to a proper redundancy package if the company wants share my constituents’ anger about that, but I am also to get rid of them. very sad. Is she sad that a great company like IBM should have sunk to this? Today I went to its website to The scheme is really rather clever, and there are check out what it really feels about life by going to the concerns that other companies might look at how IBM sections “Our values” and “Corporate Social has managed to handle a large number of job losses and Responsibility”. I tried to open the “IBM Corporate that the manipulation of the early retirement discount Responsibility Report”, but it brought up the following factors might become a commonplace mechanism for message: avoiding redundancy payouts. If the Government are “Our apologies…The page you requested cannot be displayed”. serious about workers’ rights, I urge the Minister to Who is surprised? investigate that aspect of the problem and take steps to ensure that manipulation of pension scheme terms is Sandra Gidley: Indeed. not used by companies as a way of avoiding redundancy I must now try to make some progress. I was referring payouts. to the emotive comments that have been made. One The company would claim that it has made some constituent has said concessions as a result of the consultation, but in reality “we feel that the system has let us down, badly. This is our Robert those are minor when compared to the scale of the Maxwell moment. We have saved in our pensions for many years, changes overall and have no significant impact for in the belief that our old age would be one to which we could look employees aged 50 or over. forward. IBM seems to have the right to rip up a longstanding contract, without redress, and leave our future plans in tatters. Unfortunately, it is fairly common to see final salary IBM is robbing us just as Robert Maxwell robbed his pensioners.” schemes end. In many cases they are unsustainable in I would like to devote some time to the early retirement the long term, but a principle of fairness would suggest discount factors, because that is the issue that has that employees should be given an opportunity to minimise generated the most anger. In effect, it is widely regarded the impact of any changes. The closer one is to retirement, as a means of forcing employees to retire early, with the the more important that is. The manipulation of the added bonus that IBM escapes having to put together early retirement discount factors in no way passes that redundancy packages. I have been sent an e-mail that fairness test. As I have already pointed out, those who highlights why the employees feel that they have no are planning to retire in as little as two years’ time have choice in the matter. It is from a 53-year-old who had been forced into going now to reduce their financial originally planned to retire in two years at the age of 55. losses. They have simply had no opportunity to try to If he takes the option to go now, his pension will be make good the difference or to phase in to their retirement reduced by 21 per cent., which is more than it would in a more acceptable way financially. have been reduced by, but that is the situation. If he I have also become aware of another practice that waits to retire at 55, as he had planned to do, his one would not usually expect of a world-class employer: pension will be reduced by a massive 48 per cent. Given people have been offered pay rises, but only on the that the employees stand to take such a large hit, many condition that they agreed that the pay rise would not of them feel that they have no option but to cut their be pensionable for the purposes of the defined benefits losses and leave. As I mentioned, 800 employees are scheme. If employees disagreed with that condition, leaving. they did not receive the pay rise. There are also concerns The only change to IBM’s original proposals is that, about manipulation of the performance management even though the majority of employees will leave by the system, but I must stick to pensions for the purposes of end of the first quarter of 2010, the company has added the debate. a little flexibility to phase the leave over a further one It is not just workers and local MPs who are concerned month period. Clearly, that is only in the company’s by the way IBM has manipulated its pensions system. interests, not those of the workers. The pension trustee has referred the matter to the 305WH IBM Pension Scheme13 JANUARY 2010 IBM Pension Scheme 306WH courts and IBM has refused to delay implementation of However, I sympathise with the IBM pension scheme its plans until the outcome of any court case is known. members. I understand the anxieties that arise for members In the light of the pending court case, the Minister may when such events occur. As has been hinted at by all like to respond in principle to the following questions. hon. Members who have made contributions, however It is clear from this case that there is a lack of clarity short, to this debate, and particularly by the hon. Member about the financial implications of the scheme and the for Romsey, some employees’ future financial situations factors that have prompted the company to renege on have suddenly changed quite dramatically, and it is its 2006 promise. Is there not a case for more detailed clear that they now face difficult choices that they had financial modelling being made available to workers so not anticipated having to face. that changes to such schemes are fully justified and fully The changes that IBM has made to its pension scheme understood? Should there not be a principle of no are disappointing but they are for it to defend—I certainly sudden changes, so that when changes to pension plans shall not try to do so. I only hope that the IBM board is are necessary, those who are affected have time to take watching this debate and taking note of the reaction measures to minimise personal financial loss? that its decisions have provoked, albeit they have not Will the Minister look at the manipulation of the been expressed directly but indirectly through those in early retirement discount factors and reassure herself this place who represent the views of constituents. that they are not being used as a means of avoiding This Government believe that all workers should redundancy payments? Will she also examine whether have access to workplace pension saving, which is why there is an age discrimination aspect to the manipulation we continue to make good progress with our plans to of them? It is strange that the company seems to want introduce automatic enrolment from 2012. Hon. Members to get rid of so many of its most skilled workers. Will may wish to note that the Government published a suite she consider legislating so that workers are protected of 10 sets of draft regulations and orders which combine from the impact of such sudden changes? to help deliver pension reform and the national employment I have received e-mails from IBM employees from all savings trust—formerly known as personal accounts— round the country as a result of calling for this debate. which will be the new low-cost, simple pension scheme Almost without exception, they feel let down by the for employers to use. company to which they have devoted the best years of For decades, employers have been moving away from their life, and they feel that the Government offer them defined benefit to defined contribution schemes. no protection against what they see as bully-boy tactics. Membership of defined benefit schemes peaked in the 1960s, when I was still at school, and has been in decline ever since, so this is not a new phenomenon. 5.1 pm Chris Huhne: Will the Minister give way? The Minister for Pensions and the Ageing Society (): I congratulate the hon. Member for Romsey (Sandra Gidley) on securing this debate. It is Angela Eagle: In a minute, when I have finished this clear from the attendance in this Chamber what anxiety observation. I do not believe that there is a magic bullet and outrage the decisions have caused for right hon. or any one Government action on its own that will and hon. Members throughout the country, as IBM is a reverse the trend, but that does not mean that I am not large employer. Many colleagues from both sides of the open to considering suggestions that will help. House are here today precisely to express their worries about what IBM has chosen to do and to pass on the Chris Huhne: What is clear from what is happening is feelings of the constituents whom they represent. Even how the company is using the pension scheme to encourage in this short debate, the outrage and sense of injustice people to leave early. In effect, it is loading the costs of have certainly been communicated. what would normally be picked up in a voluntary As the Pensions Minister, I have received several redundancy scheme on to the pension fund. Does the letters about the proposed changes to IBM’s pension Minister agree that that shows that the legislative framework scheme, so I know that the issue has caused upset, is not adequate to protect people in pension schemes outrage and worry up and down the country. It is from such behaviour, and what does she intend to do always disappointing when an organisation such as about it? IBM decides to close its final salary pension scheme to future accruals. Of course, this remains a matter for Angela Eagle: It is not unusual for companies to IBM to work through with the trustees and employee retain significant discretion over early retirement, both members of the scheme. It would be inappropriate for for cost and manpower planning purposes. We have me to comment in detail on the case, especially as, as the seen that phenomenon for many years. hon. Member for Romsey pointed out, the trustees are I hope that the hon. Gentleman does not think that I currently going before the court to seek clarification, if am condoning what IBM is doing. I am making a I may put it that way, on some aspects, particularly general observation in this area. It is often more of a those of early redundancy rights and how they impact company human resources issue than a pension scheme on the scheme. issue. If he wants to give me details that he thinks make I am not directly privy to the company’s specific his case, I would be happy to look at whether there are proposals, and I would not expect to be, but I note that public policy implications, but it is important to realise IBM US appears to be pursuing a similar policy. Only that there has to be some flexibility, and that not all IBM can comment on its motivation for making the flexibility is written into the rules of pension schemes. changes, and I am certainly not about to try to answer Quite often, it is available as long as there are surpluses for it. in the scheme that can be used for such purposes. 307WH IBM Pension Scheme13 JANUARY 2010 IBM Pension Scheme 308WH

[Angela Eagle] Angela Eagle: My hon. Friend has made his point in his characteristically laser-like manner. I am sure that In the past, many employers and employees have IBM will be looking at what he said. However, the benefited from the flexibility that that kind of procedure company meets the balance of cost in the defined has offered, if downsizing happens to be the case. We benefits scheme and there is nothing to suggest that it must be careful not to react with understandable emotion takes it below a requirement or minimum that pension to what has happened and end up throwing out the law would require. I put that on the record. Flexibility baby with the bath water in terms of flexibility. However, in respect of that does not take it into territory that puts as I said, I am happy to have a look at things that he it on the wrong side of regulation or the law, as the thinks impact directly on this area. regulator has pointed out. Mark Hunter: The Minister is being generous with Ms Katy Clark: My constituents do not believe that it her time. Further to the point that was just made, would would be possible to make changes of this nature in she agree with a constituent of mine who e-mailed me other parts of Europe. Has my hon. Friend looked into to state: that? Does British pensions law give the same protections “IBM has used these changes to force current employees over 50 into a ‘Hobson’s Choice’ of either taking early retirement now as in other parts of Europe? If not, is she willing to look or risking the massively worse impact of early retirement penalties at that? in the future. This is really ‘redundancy by stealth’”? This is about not flexibility but redundancy by stealth, Angela Eagle: It is difficult. I am always willing to try and there clearly is a loophole in current legislation that to learn from the systems and approaches to industrial needs to be addressed. relations, pensions law, welfare or any other area in other countries. The more we all do that, the more we Angela Eagle: Only IBM can comment on its motivation have to learn from each other. However, in the pensions for making the changes. I sympathise with IBM employees area it is quite distinct: Britain is unusual because such who find themselves in this situation. Indeed, the hon. a large proportion of its work force have accrued rights Member for Romsey—I want to address some of her in defined benefits schemes, compared with other European points because, after all, this is her debate—asked whether countries. That usually leads people down some peculiar age discrimination is involved. My only observation on and not very accurate paths, generalising about European that is that it depends on the exact circumstances, and issues and then trying to bring the discussion back to a the way to test whether there is age discrimination is different circumstance, with additional pensions, in this through industrial tribunals. It is a bit difficult to make country. I am not saying no, but it is often not easy to more than that general observation on the proceedings, compare, and people are not comparing like for like but some members of the IBM pension scheme or, when they do that. indeed, their may wish to think about resorting to industrial tribunals to test whether age Sir Peter Viggers (Gosport) (Con): One thing this discrimination is an issue. Government have done is greatly to increase the Mr. Jim Cunningham: Coming back to a point that responsibilities of trustees, one of which is to ensure was made earlier, I would have thought that the Minister fairness between the different members of the pension could look at the principle of redundancies being funded scheme. Will the Minister join me in encouraging the out of pension schemes. That is something that should trustees to think carefully about their responsibilities in have been addressed a long time ago, and I know that this field? there is a great deal anger in the trade union movement about it. I know that we have to have flexibility and so Angela Eagle: Again, I am more than happy to endorse on, but the Minister could at least say that she will look the observations that the hon. Gentleman has made at that element. about the duties, fiduciary and other, of trustees, who have a great responsibility in respect of defined benefit Angela Eagle: One of the jobs of a Pensions Minister pensions law that can sometimes be quite complex. I is to look and see how things are developing out there note the current plans of the trustees in this pension and always to check whether, in the circumstances, our scheme to check some of these issues by going to the rules and regulations are fit for purpose with respect to courts. Obviously, they have to do their duty as expected developing practice. I am more than happy to do that and laid down in law to protect the best interests of the and I always have an open mind about such things. people who benefit from their pension scheme—their David Cairns: My hon. Friend says that she is not in a members—and they must consider how fairness goes position to speculate on IBM’s reasons and she is right across the system. We have legacy defined benefit schemes about that. However, when some of us met IBM we here that other employees are involved in, which were were told that this change was made because of the particularly generous but have become less generous as comparatively poor performance of IBM UK and Ireland. time has gone on. How one would balance fairness Yet in his final missive to workers issued yesterday, across those schemes is a moot point in terms of access Brendan Riley said that it had been a privilege to lead to rights. one of the best performing parts of IBM UK. So there The Government can guarantee, as they have done in is a clear inconsistency in the message that IBM is law, accrued rights: those rights that have already been sending out: either it is a poor performer or it is a good paid for and have been gathered up by individual employees performer. with the contributions that they have made over the I am afraid to say that the reality is that hon. Members years. It is a lot harder to get ourselves into a circumstance are right. Whether the Government can do anything where companies cannot redesign in any way pension about this, I do not know. This is redundancy on the schemes that have been set up for many years. As cheap: that is what IBM is up to. Pensions Minister, I have to ensure that the law tries to 309WH IBM Pension Scheme13 JANUARY 2010 IBM Pension Scheme 310WH make the right balance between defending those rights I want to deal with the Government’s legislating, that have already accrued, which is an absolute certainty perhaps, to stop sudden changes, which the hon. Member in law passed by Parliament, but also getting to a for Romsey mentioned. I do not believe that sudden circumstance where the law is flexible enough to allow changes in pension funds are ever particularly desirable. flexibilities both for employees and employers, because We have legislation in place requiring employers to we are not talking about the provision of pensions in consult for at least 60 days before they bring changes defined benefit final salary schemes, which are not into being, but we have to keep a balance in the law and compulsory in this country. The provision of a defined not put employers off offering defined benefit schemes benefit scheme is voluntary and it is for employers to at all by making the way that the regulations work too decide whether they wish to offer them. I am acutely inflexible. aware, when looking at any potential policy changes There are still 2.6 million people in the private sector that I might wish to bring to Parliament to discuss, that accruing rights in defined benefit schemes. I am acutely I have to think about what effect those would have on aware that we have to put in place a structure of law the willingness of employers out there to continue to that enables us to try to assist both employers who wish provide defined benefit schemes. to offer such schemes and employees who benefit greatly from them, and that they continue to do so. Again, Stephen Pound: Further to the point raised by the there is a balance to be struck, but there is a requirement hon. Member for Gosport (Sir Peter Viggers) about the to consult and I understand that IBM has done that. trustees, my constituents, Nick Hodgson and Helen Sparling, tell me that after the 2006 changes the subsequent I understand—perhaps hon. Members who know changes that IBM made were not agreed by the trustees. more will correct me if I am wrong—that IBM has Is my hon. Friend prepared at least to look into that, as extended the time by which it was going to introduce it seems to be a fertile area for further examination? If these changes from April 2010 to April 2011. That is these current changes were not approved by the trustees, what a local trade union representative told me when I what is their role in this matter? had a word with him. It is important that the IBM board looks at our Angela Eagle: If my hon. Friend has any information debate today and that it takes due notice of the surprise, of that kind he should certainly put it before the regulator. worry and anger that have been expressed. I have a great The regulator has been written to by several hon. Members deal of sympathy with those feelings, which have been of this House and members of the IBM scheme and has well reflected in the debate, and I hope that IBM will had a look, but has, so far, found nothing illegal or take note of them. which would fall foul of current regulations about the way that IBM have technically dealt with the scheme. If 5.19 pm my hon. Friend has further evidence of that sort, I Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order suggest that he sends it to the regulator. No. 10(11)).

23WS Written Ministerial Statements13 JANUARY 2010 Written Ministerial Statements 24WS

to establish an enforcer to monitor and enforce the Written Ministerial Groceries Supply Code of Practice (GSCOP). The Government want to ensure that the GSCOP can Statement be independently enforced, and have the important power to hear anonymous complaints. However, the Government are mindful of placing unnecessary costs Wednesday 13 January 2010 on to business especially in a period of economic difficulty, which is why we plan to issue a consultation on how best to take matters forward. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS We have also taken the decision to revoke the Land Agreements Exclusion Order following a recent public consultation resulting from a related Competition Groceries Supply Code of Practice Commission recommendation. We will proceed to make the Revocation Order at the earliest opportunity but give businesses a transitional period to ensure that their The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships agreements are compatible with competition rules. and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): Today the Copies of the responses, have been deposited in the Government are publishing the Government response Libraries of both Houses and will be available on the accepting the Competition Commission’s recommendation BIS website at: www.berr.gov.uk/files/file54194.pdf

17P Petitions13 JANUARY 2010 Petitions 18P Petitions OBSERVATIONS

Wednesday 13 January 2010 DEFENCE PRESENTED PETITIONS Deepcut Army Barracks Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor The Petition of residents of Sutton, Cheam, Worcester Park and others, Badman Report (Richmond (Yorks)) Declares that the findings of the Army Board of The Petition of persons resident in the Richmond (Yorks) Inquiry into the deaths of Privates Geoff Gray and parliamentary constituency, James Collinson at Deepcut Army Barracks have not Declares that they are concerned about the closed the matter and leave questions unanswered and recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests no one accountable for what happened closer monitoring of home educators, including a The Petitioners therefore request that the House of compulsory annual registration scheme and right of Commons calls upon Her Majesty’s Government to access to people’s homes for local authority officials; sanction a full, independent, public inquiry into the further declares that the Petitioners believe the deaths of Deepcut Army Barracks between 1995 and recommendations are based on a review that was extremely 2002 rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr. Paul failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently Burstow, Official Report, 9 December 2009; Vol. 502, robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing c. 469 .] legislative framework. [P000626] The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Observations from the Secretary of State for Defence: Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to The Government do not support the call for a public withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for inquiry into the deaths that took place at the Deepcut tighter registration and monitoring of children educated Barracks. Nicholas Blake QC undertook an independent at home in the absence of a thorough independent review into the circumstances surrounding the deaths of inquiry into the condition and future of elective home the four soldiers at the Deepcut Barracks. His report education in England; but instead to take the steps was published on 29 March 2006. A lawyer of Mr. Blake’s necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home standing was appointed to undertake the review to Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly ensure that the process would be both independent and implemented, learning from current best practice, in all fair. He determined his own procedures and interpreted local authorities in England. his terms of reference broadly. Mr. Blake was able to deliver a report more quickly than would have been the And the Petitioners remain, etc. case with a public inquiry. He provided insights and [P000711] conclusions that were both critical and challenging but Badman Report (Solihull) of great value in helping us to improve the way we look after all our people. The Petition of persons resident in the Solihull In common with the House of Commons Defence parliamentary constituency and others, Committee, Mr. Blake concluded that, on the basis of Declares that they are concerned about the current evidence, a public inquiry into the immediate or recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests broader circumstances surrounding these deaths is not closer monitoring of home educators, including a necessary. The Government agree with this and in view compulsory annual registration scheme and right of of the extensive investigations that have already taken access to people’s homes for local authority officials; place, considers there is no Service interest in pursuing a further declares that the Petitioners believe the public inquiry. recommendations are based on a review that was extremely In his review, Mr. Blake made a number of rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, recommendations aimed at improving the training failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently environment and the care and welfare of young robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing Servicemen and women. The Ministry of Defence takes legislative framework. its responsibility to ensure that personnel are properly The Petitioners therefore request that the House of cared for very seriously and has responded to Mr. Blake’s Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, recommendations. Our policy on the care of Under 18s Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to was revised and reissued in the form of a guidance note withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for to Commanding Officers in light of the Deepcut Review. tighter registration and monitoring of children educated The training environment for new recruits has improved at home in the absence of a thorough independent accordingly. This is illustrated by the way in which the inquiry into the condition and future of elective home Armed Forces training organisations are now subject to education in England; but instead to take the steps independent scrutiny by inspectors from the Office for necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home Standards in Education, Children’s Services and Skills. Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly These inspectors are separate to the Ministry of Defence, implemented, learning from current best practice, in all and their work supports us in identifying further areas local authorities in England. for ongoing improvement. And the Petitioners remain, etc. I hope this explains the Government’s position on [P000710] this matter.

959W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 960W Written Answers to Members: Computer Software

Mr. Drew: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, Questions representing the House of Commons Commission what the timetable is for migrating computer users in the House to Vista; and how many hon. Members have had Wednesday 13 January 2010 their user accounts migrated to Vista. [310347]

Nick Harvey: PICT is ready to migrate Members from the Windows XP operating system to an upgraded HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION system from the time of the next general election. A VISTA build has been successfully tested and PICT are Bars now working with Microsoft to evaluate Windows 7 as a potential alternative option. PICT does not currently Michael Fabricant: To ask the hon. Member for North supply VISTA for any hon. Members parliamentary Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission desktop. what the (a) gross profit and (b) net trading surplus was of (i) Bellamy’s bar and (ii) each other bar on the House of Commons part of the parliamentary estate in Members: Electronic Equipment each of the last five years. [309749] Mr. Drew: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, Nick Harvey: The gross profit (taking no account of representing the House of Commons Commission how staff and overhead costs) for Bellamy’s Bar and each many types of personal digital assistants (PDAs) PICT other bar (taken to mean venues which are primarily supports; and what procedures hon. Members must bars) on the Commons part of the parliamentary estate follow to receive (a) PDAs and (b) upgrades to PDAs. in each of the last five years was: [310348]

£ Bar 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 20091 Nick Harvey: PICT currently has a range of five windows mobile devices in its PDA catalogue. Since the Bellamy’s 51,654 47,857 37,993 32,480 20,759 service was launched approximately three years ago the Strangers/ 64,375 68,349 68,931 74,760 65,832 range of devices has changed and all those issued in the Terrace past are also supported by PICT. The full range of Pavilion Bar PDAs currently available from PICT can be viewed and Members 9,757 8,891 8,865 7,779 6,105 Smoking ordered in the Commons Members Centre in Portcullis Room House. Device details and order forms can also be Pugin Room 23,818 23,163 29,475 30,993 21,374 found on the intranet. During 2009 PICT upgraded the Total 149,604 148,260 145,264 146,012 114,070 Parliamentary infrastructure and as a result will shortly 1 April to December be extending the mobile service further to allow Members to connect their own active synch compatible devices The House does not record the net trading surplus or (windows mobile, symbian and iphone) and Blackberry loss in each individual outlet but in 2008-09 the overall devices securely to Parliamentary Outlook accounts. net cost incurred by the Catering and Retail Directorate in the Department of Facilities was some £6.1 million, in accordance with the budget approved by the Finance Parliamentary Information and Communications and Services Committee. This represents the difference Technology Service between income and the cost of the services provided.

Members: Allowances Mr. Drew: To ask the hon. Member for North Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission how many (a) inquiries and (b) complaints PICT has received Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the hon. Member for in each year since it was established. [310349] North Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission how much Sir Thomas Legg’s analysis of hon. Members’ expenses claims has cost to date; and Nick Harvey: Since it was established, the PICT how much of that cost was for remuneration to Sir Service Desk has received 345,404 calls and recorded Thomas. [310452] 239 complaints.

Number of Nick Harvey: Sir Thomas Legg completed his review Number of inquiries complaints and submitted his report on 16 December. The review has cost approximately £1.1 million to date, of which 2006 84753 1— Sir Thomas’s fees were £142,000. This does not include 2007 87414 117 the cost of the appeal process now being conducted by 2008 83373 79 the right hon. Sir Paul Kennedy, or of the work which 2009 89864 43 Sir Thomas has been asked to do to update parts of his Total 345,404 239 report in the light of further mortgage and rent information 1 During 2006, when PICT was first established, complaints were not received from a number of Members. recorded separately. 961W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 962W

NORTHERN IRELAND Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office received 180 freedom of information requests during 2009. Offenders Globespan Airways Ltd. Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland how many employees of his Department and its 14. Jim Sheridan: To ask the Secretary of State for agencies have been convicted of a criminal offence of Scotland what recent discussions he has had with each type in each year since 1997. [308517] ministerial colleagues on the entry into administration of Globespan Airways Ltd. in Scotland. [309562] Paul Goggins: While details of criminal convictions would be on the personnel files of employees they are Mr. Jim Murphy: I speak to ministerial colleagues not held centrally. regularly on a range of issues including the Globespan problems. Along with these ministerial colleagues I am continuing to monitor the situation closely. OLYMPICS Banking Sector Offenders 15. Mr. Dunne: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Huhne: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Scotland what recent assessment he has made of the how many employees of the Government Olympics prospects for the banking sector in Scotland. [309563] Executive have been convicted of a criminal offence of each type in each year since 1997. [308518] Mr. Jim Murphy: Following the UK Government’s support to Halifax Bank of Scotland and the Royal : The Government Olympic Executive is Bank of Scotland worth £358 billion, I am confident part of the Department for Culture, Media and Sport that the Scottish banking sector will return to profitability (DCMS). The number of employees from DCMS convicted and again flourish as part of Scotland’s strong and of a criminal offence since 1997 is zero. diverse financial services sector.

SCOTLAND LEADER OF THE HOUSE Anti-Slavery Day Bill Departmental Sick Leave 11. Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will ask the First Minister to introduce in Grant Shapps: To ask the Leader of the House how the Scottish Parliament a legislative consent resolution many working days were lost due to (a) illness and (b) in respect of the provisions of the Anti-Slavery Day Bill stress of employees in her Office in each of the last introducing a national day to raise awareness of the three years. [309917] need to eradicate all forms of slavery. [309559] : The Office of the Leader of the Ann McKechin: The hon. Member for Totnes refers House of Commons joined the in 2007. to his Anti-Slavery Day Bill which is due for second reading in this House on 5 February. The Cabinet Office has published previous annual The Government are committed to the convention sickness absence reports for the civil service (2003-07) that we would not normally legislate with regard to these can be viewed via sickness absence reports at: devolved matters without seeking the consent of the http://www.civilservice.gov.Uk/about/resources/sickness/ Scottish Parliament, and this commitment extends to sickness.aspx private Members’ Bills that receive support from this Since 2007, the Cabinet Office has continued to publish House. its own sick absence data on a quarterly basis. These can be viewed via absence data reports at: Regional News http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/reports/absence.aspx No staff have taken leave for stress over the last three 12. Miss Begg: To ask the Secretary of State for years. Scotland when he last met broadcasters in Scotland to discuss the future of regional news in Scotland; and if Departmental Training he will make a statement. [309560]

Ann McKechin: My right hon. Friend regularly meets Grant Shapps: To ask the Leader of the House how with broadcasters in Scotland to discuss a range of many sessions of media training were organised for issues including regional news. Ministers in her Department in each of the last three years. [310241] Freedom of Information Requests Barbara Keeley: In the Office of the Leader of the 13. Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for House of Commons one Minister has attended a Media Scotland how many freedom of information requests skills training course during the last three years. This his Department has received in the last 12 months; and was organised by Sara Jones Associates Ltd. at a cost of if he will make a statement. [309561] £2,937.50. 963W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 964W

Training is also provided to Ministers on a range of 8 October, the group published a progress report that issues including handling the media, as part of their covered a range of issues including bovine TB and induction and continuing development in order to carry badgers and included a number of recommendations out their duties effectively under the ‘Ministerial Code’. which have now been implemented. While we do not have any studies specifically relating current badger populations to cattle TB incidence, DEFRA ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS is funding a number of research projects that further analyse the extensive dataset collected during the Agriculture: Carbon Sequestration Randomised Badger Culling Trial carried out in the South West of England between1998 and 2005. This Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for trial looked at the impact of two badger culling methods Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment on cattle herd TB incidence. his Department has made of the effects on climate No trial areas were located in East Sussex because it change of the practice of mob-grazing of cattle to is predominantly a relatively low TB incidence county sequester carbon dioxide in soil. [310000] with a well recognised small endemic area of infection on the coast between Brighton and Eastbourne. The Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has not carried out any latest figures show that of the 16,390 reactors slaughtered formal research on the potential for mob-grazing (an in 2009 up to 31 August in England, 18 were from herds extra intensive version of rotational grazing) to permanently located in East Sussex. sequester carbon in soil. However, an initial assessment DEFRA is, however, funding work at the Veterinary from a UK perspective suggests that mob-grazing has Laboratories Agency as part of its TB surveillance limited potential to increase soil carbon and may increase contract, which looks at relationships between local soil compaction and erosion, resulting in a subsequent badger and cattle strain types. loss of soil quality and soil carbon. As a result of the density of livestock, mob-grazing practices would also Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination be likely to lead to nutrient ‘hotspots’ which could lead to increased nitrous oxide emissions (a more powerful Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for greenhouse gas) or increased nitrate leaching into water Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when he expects courses. a diagnostic test to differentiate between infected and vaccinated animals to become available for use in vaccinating Agriculture: Waste Disposal cattle against tuberculosis. [310716]

Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: The earliest projected date for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will commission use of a BCG cattle vaccine with a DIVA test to research into the (a) environmental and (b) economic Differentiate Infected from Vaccinated Animals is 2015. merits of anaerobic digestion as a means of disposing It should be noted that in addition to the science, of fallen stock; and if he will make a statement. [309994] there are a number of key policy, legal, commercial, regulatory and manufacturing issues surrounding the Jim Fitzpatrick: Disposal of fallen stock by means of implementation of a vaccine against bovine TB. anaerobic digestion is not permitted under the EU Animal By-products Regulation 1774/2002. This is because The possible future use of cattle vaccines has been of the animal and public health risk associated with discussed with the European Commission and the such disposal. There is therefore no point at this stage in Commission has indicated that an accredited DIVA test carrying out such an environmental or economic will be critical for a cattle vaccination policy. DEFRA assessment. However, we are aware that there is ongoing will continue to work closely with the Commission and research into the possibility of using anaerobic digestions other member states to minimise the time required to as a pre-treatment and method of temporary storage of make the required legislative changes once the necessary fallen stock prior to disposal by rendering or incineration. scientific information is available. The regulation has a provision to approve such new Flood Control methods of disposal subject to evidence from research that it does not present a risk to animal and public health. Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps the Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control Government is taking to improve the resilience to flooding of drainage and sewer systems in (a) the West Midlands Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for and (b) England. [309674] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent assessment he has made of the relationship between Huw Irranca-Davies: In June 2009 the Government badger populations and the incidence of tuberculosis published their response to Sir Michael Pitt’s independent in cattle, with particular reference to East Sussex. review of the summer 2007 floods. The Government [310141] supported all of the 92 Pitt recommendations, including those that suggested better ways of managing surface Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 11 January 2010]: water flooding caused by excessive rainfall. Since November 2008, DEFRA has worked alongside The Flood and Water Management Bill was presented the farming industry and veterinary profession as part to Parliament on 19 November 2009. The Bill implements of the Bovine TB Eradication Group for England to the Pitt recommendations that require urgent legislation, tackle Bovine TB and move towards its eradication. On and strengthens the legislative framework to reduce 965W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 966W impacts of future floods. It gives local authorities lead United Utilities carries out abstraction for the public responsibility for managing local flood risk, with the water supply and this controls the lake’s water level support of the relevant organisations. when it is normal or low. It also contains proposals on unitary and county local authorities being responsible for approving sustainable Water Charges drainage systems (SUDS) for all new builds and redevelopments, and for adopting and maintaining SUDS Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for serving more than one property. SUDS can significantly Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans he reduce localised flash-flooding, reduce flooding downstream has to implement the recommendations of chapter 14 and slow down the rate at which areas begin to flood. of the Independent Review of Charging for Household They can also improve water quality. The Bill proposes Water and Sewerage Services. [309692] to amend the automatic right to connect the surface water drainage systems of any new developments to the Huw Irranca-Davies: DEFRA will consider Anna sewerage system, making it conditional on SUDS National Walker’s final recommendations, including those dealing Standards having been applied. For back gardens, local with the particular problem of the South West, very authorities already have powers to prevent the laying of carefully and will consult on the way forward. impermeable surfaces where it poses a local problem, via Article 4 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995. On 15 December 2008, the Government announced TRANSPORT that the transfer of all private sewers and lateral drains linked to the public sewerage system would take place A338 from 2011. Around 180,000 km of private sewers and lateral drains connect into the public network, but Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Minister of State, Department benefit from no effective operational regime. This will for Transport what the reason is for the roadworks remove the burden of maintenance and repair from taking place on the A338; when they are expected to be householders and will ensure better planning and more concluded; and if he will make a statement. [310081] integrated management of the wider sewerage network. In the West Midlands, the Environment Agency has Mr. Khan: Dorset county council, as highway authority, supplied its Medium Term Plan for flood risk management is currently clearing vegetation, removing tree, erection to Severn Trent Water. This will allow an early assessment of reptile fencing and undertaking various surveys in of potential impacts on the sewerage system to be preparation for proposed major reconstruction work to made. It will also create opportunities to identify potential the A338 Spur Road from Ashley Heath interchange to sites for combined schemes, where both river and sewer Cooper Dean Interchange. It expects to complete this flooding occur. The Environment Agency and Severn preparation work in early March 2010. Trent are currently co-operating on planning schemes at The Department for Transport is currently considering Alcester, Broom and Pershore in the West Midlands. a major scheme business case for the reconstruction These are all locations which were affected by the 2007 works and will announce a decision in due course. summer floods. These schemes are planned to reduce flood risk to 193 properties (100 at Alcester, 61 at Aviation: Security Pershore and 32 at Broom). Water companies are investing considerable sums in Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department capital works to minimise the risk of sewer flooding. for Transport what assessment he has made of the For the Periodic Review 2009, the Environment Agency effects of the additional security arrangements introduced commented on and contributed to the funding bid by in December 2009 on queuing times and delays at UK Severn Trent to improve the resilience of its assets. In airports. [309430] both the East and West Midlands, Severn Trent has been working with the Environment Agency to assist Paul Clark: While the additional measures introduced lead local authorities in establishing successful partnerships for US bound flights are the responsibility of the US to manage local flood risk. Government, the Department for Transport inspectors have been working with airports and airlines to assess Lake Windermere the extent of delays. The Department for Transport and the US Government are in regular contact to discuss ways in which delays can be minimised while maintaining Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for adequate levels of service. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs who has responsibility for managing the water level of Lake Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Windermere; and how this management is undertaken. for Transport whether the Government plan to introduce [310365] the additional security checks recently introduced for flights to the US to other flights departing the UK. Huw Irranca-Davies [holding answer 12 January 2010]: [310284] The Environment Agency is responsible for the operation of the Newby Bridge Sluices situated on the River Paul Clark: These checks were introduced in response Leven, which flows out of Windermere. The sluices to US Government requirements. The UK Government have a limited controlling effect, reducing the lake level will not be introducing such specific requirements for when it is high. other flights, but will be improving security for all 967W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 968W departing passengers in line with the statement made by Paul Clark: This is a detailed operational matter for my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to Parliament each UK airport to decide. on 5 January. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what assessment he has made of the for Transport (1) what estimate he has made of the cost effects of the introduction of full body scanners at to the aviation industry of additional security checks on airports on (a) the length of queues at security and (b) passengers transferring at UK airports to flights to levels of passenger convenience. [310305] other destinations; [310287] Paul Clark: Urgent consultation with industry is (2) what additional security checks he plans to under way particularly with those airports who have introduce for passengers transferring at UK airports to trialled such body scanners to ensure that such operational flights to other destinations; [310298] issues are taken into account. (3) whether additional security checks on passengers transferring through UK airports will apply to Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department passengers arriving from all countries or specified for Transport what criteria will be used to decide which countries. [310301] passengers are subject to full body scanning at airports. [310307] Paul Clark: The Government are not implementing additional security checks specifically on transfer passengers Paul Clark: The code of practice is under urgent at UK airports, and so no additional costs are involved. development and will be finalised as soon as possible. International transfer passengers are already subject to the same screening regime as departing passengers, and Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department will therefore be covered by the wider enhancements to for Transport when he expects to publish the report of airport security that are being introduced. the Government’s review of airport security measures. [310314] Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimate he has made of the average Paul Clark: I refer the hon. Member to the statement time required to carry out the new security checks on made to the House by my right hon. Friend the Home airline passengers and others. [310299] Secretary on 5 January 2010, Official Report, columns 28-32.

Paul Clark: This is currently under discussion with Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department airport operators. Our aim is to minimise disruption to for Transport what assessment he has made of the passengers. effectiveness of passive millimetre wave technology in the detection of powder and liquid explosives. [310316] Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what proportion of airline passengers Paul Clark: None. We are not proposing the deployment transferring at UK airports to other destinations will be of such technology at UK airports for the detection of subject to additional security screening. [310300] powder and liquid explosives.

Paul Clark: Transfer passengers are subject to the Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department same security regime as departing passengers. The precise for Transport what assessment he has made of the cost proportion of passengers selected for screening is not (a) to the public purse and (b) to the aviation industry made public for security reasons. of introducing full body scanners to all UK airports. [310317] Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what estimates have been made of the Paul Clark: The costs of introducing body scanners likely costs to (a) airports and (b) airline operators of will be met by airports, and not the public purse. It will training for staff on new security measures. [310302] be up to airport operators to determine how many machines are needed to process passengers without Paul Clark: I have made no estimate. Training costs undue delay, and so an assessment of cost at this stage is are a matter for airport operators. not possible. Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport whether the full body scanners he plans to for Transport whether behavioural profiling is used in introduce to airports will use passive millimetre wave security measures undertaken at UK airports. [310303] technology or X-ray technology. [310318]

Paul Clark: Security staff at certain airports are Paul Clark: We envisage that the body scanners to be currently receiving training in behavioural analysis introduced will use either active millimetre wave or techniques. backscatter X-ray technology.

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many full body scanners he expects for Transport what assessment he has made of the to be introduced into UK airports in the next (a) six effectiveness of full body scanning security equipment months, (b) year, (c) two years and (d) five years. for airports that does not use passive millimetre wave [310304] technology. [310319] 969W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 970W

Paul Clark: The Department for Transport has assessed Body Searches the effectiveness of active millimetre wave and backscatter X-ray technology. It is envisaged that the body scanners Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department to be deployed at UK airports will use either of these for Transport what his estimate is of the average time it methods. takes to search an individual using a (a) body scanner and (b) pat down physical search. [309428] Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport whether there will be a minimum age for Paul Clark: The average time taken for a search by people to be subject to full body scanning security at body scanner is between 20 and 90 seconds, depending airports. [310320] on the technology employed. A hand search takes around 45 seconds. Paul Clark: I refer the hon. Member to my answer of 11 January 2010, Official Report, column 660W. Buses: Concessions

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mrs. Riordan: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport pursuant to the oral statement of 5 January for Transport how many people in Halifax are estimated 2010, Official Report, columns 28-32, on aviation and to be eligible for the national concessionary bus fares border security, whether funds from his Department’s scheme. [310461] budget will be allocated to training for airport security staff on new security measures. [310339] Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport does not hold information about the number of people eligible Paul Clark: The financing of training for airport for a bus pass, that is persons aged 60 or over and security staff is a matter for airport operators. eligible disabled people, at the level requested. West Yorkshire Integrated Transport Authority (Metro) Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department administers the concessionary travel scheme that includes for Transport pursuant to the Oral Statement of 5 Calderdale council and Halifax. Population estimates January 2010, Official Report, columns 28-32, on aviation from the Office for National Statistics show that in mid and border security, whether his Department plans to 2008 there were 43,400 people resident in the Calderdale contribute to the cost of introducing explosive trace council area aged 60 or over. There is no information on detection equipment in all UK airports by the end of the number of disabled people resident in the area. the year. [310340] Buses: Stafford Paul Clark: The financing of this equipment will be a matter for airport operators. Mr. Cash: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport if he will take steps to ensure the restoration Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department of the X1 Baker Bus service to Stafford station. [309866] for Transport pursuant to the Oral Statement of 5 January 2010, Official Report, columns 28-32, on aviation Mr. Khan: The X1 bus service is a commercial service and border security, whether he has made an estimate operated by Baker Bus Ltd. The X1 also provides a of the cost to the aviation industry of his Department’s rail-replacement service between Wedgewood, Barlston requirement that all UK airports introduce explosive and Stone stations. trace detection equipment by the end of the year. Rail services between Stafford and Stone were restored [310341] in December 2008. However, London Midland Trains has made a commercial agreement with Arriva Buses Paul Clark: I have not made any estimate. The financing that through rail tickets will be accepted providing of such equipment is a matter for airport operators. through journey opportunities.

Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Departmental Domestic Visits for Transport when he expects full body scanning equipment to be operational in all designated UK airports. [310350] Philip Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many planned visits by Ministers in Paul Clark: The first scanner is expected to be operational his Department within the UK were cancelled within at Heathrow airport within about three weeks. We are 72 hours of the visit taking place in the last 12 months; discussing urgently with the airport industry the widespread and what the planned venue or venues were for each roll out of scanners at UK airports as soon as is such visit. [309873] practical. Chris Mole: This information is not held by the Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department for Transport. for Transport pursuant to the Oral Statement of 5 January 2010, Official Report, columns 28-32, on aviation Departmental Finance and border security, whether he expects airline staff to receive training in behavioural analysis techniques. Andrew George: To ask the Minister of State, Department [310362] for Transport (1) what recent guidance his Department has issued to regional transport committees on the Paul Clark: The current behavioural analysis training criteria to be used in their allocation of central funding programme is focused on airport security staff. for transport programmes; [310429] 971W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 972W

(2) which Minister in his Department is responsible Driving Standards Agency made incentive payments for policy in relation to the allocation of central of £26,032 in July 2008 and £10,544 in July 2009 for the funding for regional transport programmes; [310430] completion of multi purpose test centres being delivered (3) what criteria his Department uses to determine to the agreed programme. its funding allocations in respect of regional transport Departmental Surveys programmes. [310431] Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Khan: My responsibilities include decisions on for Transport if he will place in the Library a copy of transport funding for cities and regional networks. Most the results of his Department’s most recent staff survey; such funding outside London is distributed to local which organisation carried out the survey; and what the authorities on the basis of advice received from regions. cost of the survey was. [309836] Guidance to regions on preparing regional funding advice was most recently issued in July 2008, and is Chris Mole: The Department for Transport will be available at: publishing its October 2009 staff survey results for the http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/ Department and its agencies on the Department’s website regional_funding_advice300708.pdf on 1 February 2010. Following publication we will place a copy of the results in the Library. This sets out both the general criteria for advice across all the functions covered and the specific transport The supplier for the Department for Transport staff considerations to be taken into account. The guidance survey in October 2009 was ORC International who also includes at Annex E the formulae which have been were procured by the Cabinet Office to deliver the first agreed to distribute available funding between regions. cross-civil service People Survey. The People Survey replaced all existing staff surveys in the civil service Since submitting advice in spring 2009, regions have with a single questionnaire. been invited to undertake a number of further transport studies to influence decisions on investment from 2014 The cost of the 2009-10 People Survey for the onwards. Guidance on the study programme was issued Department for Transport and its agencies was £76,000. in July 2009 and is available at: By procuring a single supplier for staff surveys in 2009-10 the civil service has saved 35 per cent. on the total cost http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/strategy/dasts/guidance/ of staff surveys in 2008-09. M6 Departmental Pay Mr. Timpson: To ask the Minister of State, Department John Mason: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what progress has been made on the for Transport what (a) bonuses and (b) incentives have review of road safety between junctions 15 and 19 of been paid to (i) consultants and (ii) contractors engaged the M6 motorway. [310065] by his Department in each of the last three years. Chris Mole [holding answer 11 January 2010]: The [300629] Highways Agency has reviewed road safety between Junctions 15 and 19 of the M6, and other adjacent Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not sections of the motorway, as part of its overall Annual record the details of bonus and incentive payments Safety Report. This report has recommended further centrally and this could be provided only at disproportionate investigations at various locations along the motorway. costs. The Highways Agency has also launched a number of However the following bonus and incentive payments targeted educational campaigns and other initiatives are known to have been paid: aimed at improving road safety along this and other The central department paid Operon gainshare and incentive sections of the motorway. payments of £340,654 in 2006-07, £394,905 in 2007-08 and £464,061 Roads: Snow and Ice in 2008-09 for successfully meeting key performance indicators related to delivery of total facilities management services. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent assessment he has made of John Mason: To ask the Minister of State, Department the adequacy of provision of grit and salt to treat roads for Transport what (a) bonuses and (b) incentives have and pavements during very cold weather periods; and been paid to (i) consultants and (ii) contractors engaged what the sources are of salt used for such road treatments. by executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies for which his Department is responsible in each of the [309987] last three years. [300630] Mr. Khan: The Government have convened a group called the ‘Salt Cell’, bringing together the Department Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not for Transport, the devolved Administrations (Scotland record the details of bonus and incentive payments and Wales), the Highways Agency, the Local Government centrally and this could be provided only at disproportionate Association (LGA), County Surveyors Society, Met costs. Office, the Department for Communities and Local However, following a search across the Departments Government and the Cabinet Office. Executive Agencies and non-departmental public bodies, The aim of the Salt Cell is to provide advice to the following bonus and incentive payments are known suppliers on the most effective distribution of available to have been paid. salt supplies in order to minimise the risk to public 973W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 974W safety. The Salt Cell is continuously gathering and internet cafes who are obliged to report when users visit assessing salt stock and resilience levels and is working banned websites. We are concerned by recent reports hard to ensure the delivery of salt goes to where it is that a new presidential decree would increase control needed most. over the internet in advance of the local elections expected There are three significant salt mines within the UK. this spring and the presidential elections expected early There are also three major salt merchants that import next year. We, and EU colleagues, regularly raise freedom salt as well as supply UK produced salt. There are other of expression with the Belarusian authorities. Progress salt merchants and businesses which supply relatively in this area would improve the relationship between small quantities of salt. Belarus and international organisations like the EU, Council of Europe, and Organization for Security and Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Minister of State, Department Co-operation in Europe. On 7 May 2009, Belarus signed for Transport on what date the Salt Cell became operational. the Joint Declaration of the Prague Eastern Partnership [310553] Summit which stipulates that the “Partnership will be based on fundamental values .... including Mr. Khan: The Salt Cell became operational on the 6 democracy, the rule of law and the respect for human rights and January 2010 in order to respond to the current severe fundamental freedoms.” weather conditions. This includes the right to a free media. Rolling Stock Colombia

Mrs. Riordan: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign for Transport how much has been spent on additional and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received rolling stock for the Calder Valley line between Halifax on the number of internally displaced people in Colombia; and Leeds since 2005. [310460] and if he will make a statement. [310551]

Chris Mole: Generally, rolling stock is not procured Chris Bryant: There are varying figures on the total for particular routes unless there are special reasons, number of displaced people in Colombia, but the UN usually technical or operational, for doing so, and therefore High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) puts the it is not possible to identify additional trains provided figure at almost 3.3 million. Further details can be specifically for services between Halifax and Leeds. found on the UNHCR website at: However in 2006 Yorkshire Forward part funded the http://www.unhcr.org/4b02ca0e9.html additional cost of 12 diesel multiple unit vehicles for use on services on routes in West Yorkshire, including those We continue to urge the Colombian Government to between Leeds and Halifax. take all appropriate steps to help these people, addressing the most urgent issues they face, including extreme Transport Police poverty and the loss of their land.

Mr. Watson: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign for Transport how many people (1) were issued with a and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he penalty notice for disorder under section 5 of the Public has made of the effectiveness of UK projects to reduce Order Act 1986 by the British Transport Police in each impunity in Colombia. [310552] of the last three years; [310548] Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary (2) have been (a) arrested and (b) de-arrested by the announced a further £250,000 in UK project funds to British Transport Police in each of the last three years. help tackle impunity in Colombia in March 2009. These [310549] projects are ongoing in the current financial year, and it is too early to make an assessment of their effectiveness. Chris Mole: This information is not held by the The largest relevant project is being implemented with Department for Transport, but by the British Transport the assistance of the UN Office of Drugs and Crime police who can be contacted at: British Transport Police, and is being specifically tailored to meet needs identified 25 Camden Road, London NW1 9LN, e-mail: by those involved in the Colombian judicial process, [email protected] including investigators, lawyers and judges. Specialised training will commence in February 2010. The other project funded with the additional money FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE is a report reviewing the five years of operation of the Accusatorial Criminal Justice System. It will produce Belarus: Internet examples of best practice and draft proposals to present to Congress and the authorities aimed at improving the Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign judicial process. and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has had discussions with his Belarus counterpart on the regulation of the Colombia: Overseas Trade internet in that country; and if he will make a statement. [310421] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he Chris Bryant: Access to the internet in Belarus is has held with his US counterpart on the negotiation of controlled through the monopoly of the national company a free trade agreement between the US and Colombia; Beltelkom and strict rules are imposed on owners of and if he will make a statement. [310444] 975W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 976W

Chris Bryant: Neither my right hon. Friend the Foreign Number of co-located staff Secretary nor I have held recent discussions with our US counterparts on the negotiation of any free trade Department name UK LE Total agreement between the United States and Colombia. Department for Work and 21214 Pensions Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Metropolitan Police 12 2 14 and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of Department of Transport 5 5 10 6 January 2010, Official Report, column 410W, on Others 20 24 44 Colombia: overseas trade, for what reasons he will not Totals 1,086 1,992 3,078 withdraw from the negotiation of a free trade agreement with Colombia. [310455] Departmental Pay Chris Bryant: I refer the hon. Member to the response made by my hon. Friend the Minister of State (Mr. Lewis) John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for on 26 November 2009, Official Report, column 302W. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the (a) We believe that free trade agreements can help to average and (b) highest non-consolidated performance create the right circumstances for improved stability, related payment for senior civil servants in his where human rights stand a better chance of flourishing. Department was in cash terms in each of the last five Denying Colombia access to the economic opportunities years. [303014] presented by the multi-party trade agreement would undermine this prospect. Chris Bryant [holding answer 30 November 2009]: For the years 2006-07 to 2008-09, I refer the hon. However, we would not support an agreement that Member to the reply given by my noble Friend Lord did not contain a robust and enforceable human rights Brett on 12 January 2010, Official Report, House of clause, which would allow the EU to suspend the agreement Lords, column WA146. if it is breached. For the highest amount paid out to an individual, in each case a senior civil servant, for the years 2004-05 to Departmental Domestic Visits 2005-06, I refer the hon. Member to the reply by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Heeley (Meg Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Munn) to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) and Commonwealth Affairs how many planned visits on 3 July 2008, Official Report, column 1125W. by Ministers in his Department within the UK were The average non-consolidated performance related cancelled within 72 hours of the visit taking place in the payment for senior civil servants in 2004-05 was £2,128 last 12 months; and what the planned venue or venues in 2004-05 and £4,025 in 2005-06. were for each such visit. [309877] Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: The information is not held centrally, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. answer of 25 November 2009, Official Report, column Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers make 161W, on departmental pay, how much was paid out in every effort to fulfil engagements, but occasionally it total under his Department’s main bonus scheme in may be necessary for business reasons to make changes each year since 1997; how much was paid out on at shorter notice than we would prefer. In those situations average under the main bonus scheme to each of those we always seek to minimise the inconvenience caused. whose received money from it in each year since 1997; how much the highest amount paid out to an individual Departmental Manpower under the main bonus scheme was in each year since 1997; how many individuals received a payment under Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the main bonus scheme in each year since 1997; how and Commonwealth Affairs how many officials from much was paid out in total under the in-year bonus each other Government department are serving at UK scheme in each year since 1997; how much was paid out posts overseas. [307049] on average under the in-year bonus scheme to each of those who received money from it in each year since : The number of staff, broken down 1997; what the highest amount paid out to an individual by Government body, are shown in the following table. was under the in-year bonus scheme in each year since 1997; and how many individuals received a payment Number of co-located staff under the in-year bonus scheme in each year since 1997. Department name UK LE Total [303591] UK Border Agency—Visa 415 1,443 1,858 Chris Bryant: Payment of non-consolidated, variable staff pay linked to performance was introduced in the Foreign Ministry of Defence 358 154 512 and Commonwealth Office in 2002. We reward staff Department for 201 247 448 who are performing most effectively, frequently in dangerous International Development and difficult posts. Bonuses represented 2.97 per cent. UK Border Agency—Airline 47 39 86 of our 2008-09 payroll costs. In 2004, we moved to Liaison Officers in-house payroll provision. New data prior to 2004 can British Council 9 48 57 be extracted only at a disproportionate cost, but some Her Majesty’s Revenue and 17 18 35 information has previously been published in the Official Customs Report as follows. 977W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 978W

The total number of individuals receiving bonuses Mr. : We are concerned about the human was: rights situation in Equatorial Guinea, and made this clear at the UN Human Rights Council on 9 December Main scheme In-year scheme 2009, when Equatorial Guinea underwent its Universal Periodic Review. Our ambassador to Equatorial Guinea 2005-06 4,770 946 will continue to raise our concerns with the Equato-Guinean 2006-07 4,838 748 authorities during his visits to the country. However, we 2007-08 4,702 952 have no plans to make representations to the Director 2008-09 4,478 1,190 General of the UN Educational, Scientific and Cultural For the total sums paid out under the main bonus Organisation (UNESCO) about the creation of the new scheme, and the in-year scheme, for 2006-07, I refer the UNESCO-Obiang prize, which was a matter for the hon. Member to the reply by my right hon. Friend the UNESCO Executive Board. Member for Eastwood (Mr. Murphy) to the hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) on 5 July 2007, Official Report, column 1142W; for 2002-06 in the reply by my Morocco right hon. Friend the Member for Ashfield (Mr. Hoon) to my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) on 27 November 2006, Official Report, Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign column 462W. and Commonwealth Affairs what definition of the border of Morocco is used for the purposes of the The main scheme paid out £6,333,024 in 2007-08 and EU-Morocco Association Agreement. [309545] £7,054,036 in 2008-09. The in-year scheme paid out £415,128 and £517,800 in the same periods. For the highest amount paid out to an individual, for Mr. Ivan Lewis: There is no definition of the borders the years 2004-05 to 2005-06, I refer the hon. Member of Morocco within the text of the EU-Morocco Association to the reply by my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield Agreement of 1996, which entered into force on 1 March Heeley (Meg Munn) to the hon. Member for Twickenham 2000. (Dr. Cable) on 3 July 2008, Official Report, column In practice, for the purposes of application of the 1125W. For the years 2006-07 to 2008-09, I refer the tariff preference provisions of the Agreement, the European hon. Member to the reply given by my noble Friend Commission provides each member state with details of Lord Brett on 12 January 2010, Official Report, House the relevant issuing offices in Morocco which are approved of Lords, column WA146. to authenticate tariff preference documents. If in doubt The highest amount paid under the in-year scheme HM Revenue and Customs would refer any queries to has been £2,000 since 2005-06. The average amount the European Commission. paid in the in-year scheme in the period 2005-09 has been successively £946, £748, £952 and £1,190. The average amount paid in the main scheme has been North Korea: Human Rights successively £1,083; £1,217; £1,303; £1,553. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Moore: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment he answer of 25 November 2009, Official Report, column has made of the human rights situation in North 161W, on departmental pay, how much his Department Korea; and if he will make a statement. [310428] has paid out in bonuses to staff in each year since 1997. [303632] Mr. Ivan Lewis: North Korea has one of the worst Chris Bryant: I refer the hon. Member to the response human rights records in the world. Although North I gave in PQ 303591. Korea denies access to human rights organisations, including the UN, information from a variety of sources, Departmental Training much of it from North Korean defectors, paints a picture of serious and widespread abuse, namely: Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for political prison camps and labour rehabilitation camps; Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many sessions of media training were organised for Ministers in his regular use of the death penalty (including extra-judicial and public executions); Department in each of the last three years. [310753] routine use of torture and inhumane treatment; Chris Bryant: I refer the hon. Member to the reply I severe restrictions of freedom of speech, movement, assembly, gave on 30 November 2009, Official Report, column and information. 423W. We raised these issues most recently in December Equatorial Guinea: Human Rights 2009 at the UN Universal Periodic Review of the human rights situation in North Korea (in Geneva). We pressed Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for North Korea to allow the UN Special Rapporteur on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make the situation of human rights in North Korea access to representations to the Director-General of UNESCO their country to make a full assessment of the human on the naming of the UNESCO-Obiang Nguema Mbasogo rights situation. The EU has also offered to restart a International Prize for Research in the Life Sciences in bilateral dialogue on human rights but North Korea light of the human rights record of the government of refuses to do so until the EU stops proposing resolutions Equatorial Guinea. [309480] against North Korea. 979W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 980W

HOME DEPARTMENT provide residents with a right of complaint when effective action is not taken by local agencies through existing channels; and Antisocial Behaviour: Coventry taking reports of ASB seriously by recording and investigating all cases and committing to keeping victims informed of action taken. Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State I am particularly pleased that Coventry community for the Home Department (1) how much funding his safety partnership has already been proactive in devising Department has made available to tackle antisocial the minimum standards and that in September 2009 behaviour in Coventry in each year since 1997; [309607] produced a synopsis for the Home Office, which showed (2) what recent discussions his Department has had how they already deal with and publicise many, varied with the Coventry Community Safety Partnership on aspects of ASB and related crime in terms of response the effectiveness of measures to reduce the incidence of times, reporting outcomes to callers, use of enforcement antisocial behaviour in Coventry. [309608] activity and use of council weblinks by which to report and get on information. Mr. Alan Campbell: As with all other crime and disorder reduction partnerships (CDRPs), Coventry was Association of Chief Police Officers allocated £25,000 a year from 2003-04 as a contribution towards funding an ASB co-ordinator post. In 2005-06, Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for the in England the antisocial co-ordinators grant was pooled Home Department what work is undertaken by the within the safer and stronger communities fund. This Association of Chief Police Officers’ regional intelligence pooled budget supports the delivery of outcomes and units. [308550] indicators relating to antisocial behaviour in local area agreements (LAAs). Mr. Hanson: The 10 ACPO Regional Intelligence Other budgets also contribute towards the wider Units share intelligence and information in order to cross-Government strategy to tackle antisocial behaviour. build a comprehensive knowledge and understanding The Government are committed to diverting young of the threat and risk from serious organised crime. people from crime and antisocial behaviour as demonstrated They also provide intelligence support to coordinate by our investment of around £2 billion on prevention, activity against those individuals or groups posing the including activity such as sure start children’s centres, greatest threat thereby maximising available resource parenting support and positive activities. Last year we capabilities and the reduction of harm. The RIUs are launched the YouthCrime Action Plan, a cross-government currently in the process of expanding to accommodate programme of action to tackle youth crime and antisocial in each unit personnel from the Serious Organised behaviour and reduce re-offending. It set out a triple Crime Agency, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs track approach of enforcement where behaviour is and the UK Borders Agency that will support the unacceptable, non-negotiable support and challenge to development of a more integrated intelligence landscape children and families where it is needed and better and across all the law enforcement agencies for serious organised earlier prevention. This builds on major progress we crime. have made in the last decade in tackling youth offending. Backed by £100 million of new investment it has led to Asylum significant action over the past year and a half, which has made a real difference to young people, families and Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home communities. The number of young people entering the Department what estimate his Department has made of criminal justice system for the first time is falling. The the number of refused asylum seekers remaining (a) number in England fell from 94,481 in 2007-08 to illegally and (b) pending appeal in (i) the UK, (ii) 74,033 in 2008-09—a 21.6 per cent. decrease. England and (iii) each region in each of the last five Home Office led activities also act to tackle antisocial years. [308751] behaviour, for example the introduction of community support officers, but a monetary value cannot be assigned Mr. Woolas: The number of individuals who receive a to that contribution. decision to refuse them asylum and the number who are While I have not had discussions with the community removed from the UK or depart voluntarily are published safety team in Coventry I am pleased to hear that quarterly and can be found on the Home Office website Coventry community safety partnership has an overarching at: strategy and action plan to tackle and reduce antisocial http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- behaviour (ASB) in the city, which has been developed stats.html and is delivered through a range of agencies who are The following table shows the number of outstanding members of a Coventry ASB strategic group. On 13 asylum appeals before the Asylum and Immigration October 2009 I wrote out to all CDRPs challenging Tribunal (AIT) in each region of the UK and in England them to develop and publicise a set of minimum standards only in December 2006, December 2007, December for ASB and communicate that effectively to the public, 2008 and November 2009. including: Asylum and Immigration Tribunal, outstanding asylum appeals reducing perceptions of ASB year on year; December December December November 2006 2007 2008 2009 regular updates for every community on what is being done to tackle antisocial behaviour—including an expectation to publicise Midlands 507 376 321 495 ASBOs to the local community; Northeast and 940 635 556 898 offer support and practical help to victims of ASB; Northwest 981W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 982W

Asylum and Immigration Tribunal, outstanding asylum appeals www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/asylum/support/apply/section4/ December December December November The Government have introduced proposals for reform 2006 2007 2008 2009 of asylum support under the draft Immigration Bill Scotland 182 241 167 172 which was published on 12 November. The objectives in Birmingham ASC1 — — 106 118 reform are to ensure those seeking asylum are effectively Northern Region 1,629 1,252 1,150 1,683 supported during the determination of their claim; that Central London 3,632 2,111 1,344 2,042 the system for achieving this is as simple and efficient as Greater London and 596 418 366 983 possible; and that it works towards the return of those the Southeast who have no protection needs and who have no right to Wales and 172 126 102 205 be in the United Kingdom. Southwest Funding for civil legal aid is available to anyone who Loughborough/ 413 105 30 19 qualifies, provided that the case is within the scope of 1 Leicester the legal aid scheme. Each application is considered on Southern Region 4,813 2,760 1,842 3,249 an individual basis and is subject to the statutory test of AIT total 6,442 4,012 2,992 4,932 the applicant’s means. 1 Birmingham, Loughborough and Leicester are Administrative Support Centres and not AIT hearing centres. Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Prior to 2006 figures showing the number of outstanding Department what proportion of asylum seekers were appeals were based on a manual file reconciliation and (a) granted asylum and (b) allowed to remain temporarily subsequent appeal receipt and disposal figures. It is in the UK for humanitarian reasons in each of the last therefore not possible to break down those figures on five years. [308753] either a regional basis or to reflect England only. Mr. Woolas: The following table provides the number Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for the and proportion of persons granted asylum at initial Home Department what (a) financial, (b) legal and decision stage of their application in the UK. It also (c) housing support his Department provides to includes the number and proportion of persons granted refused asylum seekers allowed to remain in the UK humanitarian protection and discretionary leave in each temporarily for humanitarian reasons. [308752] of the last five years. Mr. Woolas: Provision for the temporary support of Information on immigration and asylum are published failed asylum seekers, in the form of subsistence and annually and quarterly. Annual statistics and the latest accommodation required to prevent destitution is only statistics for Q3 2009 are available from the Library of available in certain circumstances, primarily under section the House and from the Home Office Research, 4 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. Details of Development and Statistics Directorate website at: the availability of support are set out on the UK Border http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration-asylum- Agency website at: stats.html

Applications received for asylum in the United Kingdom, excluding dependants and initial decisions1, 2, 2004-08 Number of principal applicants Recognised Not Not as a recognised as recognised as refugee As a refugee but As a refugee but As Total and percentage granted percentage granted percentage Total initial granted of initial humanitarian of initial discretionary of initial applications decisions asylum decision protection decision leave decision Total

2004 33,960 46,020 1,565 3 160 0 3,835 8 40,465 2005 25,710 27,395 1,940 7 120 0 2,675 10 22,655 2006 23,610 20,930 2,170 10 55 0 2,245 11 16,460 2007 23,430 21,775 3,545 16 125 1 2,075 10 16,030 20083 25,930 19,400 3,725 19 95 0 2,075 11 13,505 1 Figures (other than percentages) rounded to the nearest 5 (— = 0, *=1or2).Figuresmaynotsumtothetotals shown because of independent rounding. 2 Initial decisions do not necessarily relate to applications made in the same period and exclude the outcome of appeals or other subsequent decisions. 3 Provisional figures.

Burglary : Figures based on the number of recorded offences in England and Wales of (1) total burglary in a Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the dwelling, (2) total burglary in a building other than a Home Department how many (a) burglaries and (b) dwelling, (3) robbery of business property and (4) robbery robberies in respect of (i) businesses and (ii) individuals of personal property are given in the following tables. were reported in each year since 1997; and what the The number of burglaries related to business properties detection rate was for each type of offence in each such cannot be separately identified from the recorded ‘burglary year. [307631] in a building other than a dwelling’ offences. 983W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 984W

Table 1: Offences recorded by the police in England and Wales, 1997 1997 Offence Number of offences Detection rate (percentage)

Robbery 63,072 27

Total burglary in a dwelling 519,265 26 Total burglary in a building other than a dwelling 495,810 20 Note: Up until 1997, robbery of (i) business property and (ii) personal property offences were recorded together under the classification of ‘robbery’ and were not separately identifiable. Table 2: Offences recorded by the police in England and Wales, 1998-99 to 2001-02 1998-99 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 Number Detection Number Detection Number Detection Number Detection of rate of rate of rate of rate Offence offences (percentage) offences (percentage) offences (percentage) offences (percentage)

Robbery of business 10,481 35 12,148 25 12,394 25 13,186 27 property Robbery of personal 56,354 20 72,129 17 82,760 17 108,173 15 property

Total burglary in a 473,349 22 442,602 15 402,984 14 430,347 14 dwelling Total burglary in a 479,835 17 463,866 10 433,043 10 448,162 10 building other than a dwelling Notes: 1. The coverage was extended and counting rules revised from 1998-99. Figures from that date are not directly comparable with those for 1997. 2. The data in this table is prior to the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for later years. Table 3: Offences recorded by the police in England and Wales, 2002-03 to 2008-09 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 Number Detection Number Detection Number Detection Number Detection of rate of rate of rate of rate Offence Offences (percentage) Offences (percentage) Offences (percentage) Offences (percentage)

Robbery of 11,066 29 10,110 28 7,934 29 8,760 26 business property Robbery of 99,205 17 93,626 18 83,076 19 89,438 18 personal property

Total burglary in 437,583 15 402,345 15 321,507 16 300,517 17 a dwelling Total burglary in 452,516 10 417,668 10 358,851 11 344,551 11 a building other than a dwelling

2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Number of Detection rate Number of Detection rate Number of Detection rate Offence Offences (percentage) Offences (percentage) Offences (percentage)

Robbery of business property 9,454 23 9,174 26 9,344 27 Robbery of personal property 91,922 18 75,574 19 70,772 20

Total burglary in a dwelling 292,260 17 280,694 16 284,427 16 Total burglary in a building other 329,752 11 302,989 11 297,119 11 than a dwelling Note: The data in this table takes account of the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for earlier years.

Children: Police Custody Crime: Convictions

Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many children have been held Home Department what proportion of incidents of in a police cell in each police force area in each of the recorded crime resulted in a conviction in each of the last five years. [309885] last 10 years. [306361] Mr. Hanson: The Home Office does not collect these Alan Johnson: Information is not available in the figures. form requested. 985W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 986W

It is not possible to track individual offences through Official Report, column 476W, on the DNA and to their conclusion at court. The police recorded crime fingerprint database, what foreign intelligence agencies data are principally victim-based and are the number of have received DNA and fingerprint information from offences recorded in each financial year. Court proceedings the UK (a) by making a request for mutual legal data for convictions are collected by the Ministry of assistance in criminal matters and (b) through Justice and are offender based. These data are published intelligence channels via Interpol, Europol or similar on a calendar year basis and are counts of persons organisations in the last five years. [305478] classified by their principal offence. For these reasons the two datasets are not directly comparable. Mr. Alan Campbell: Mutual legal assistance is provided for the purpose of criminal proceedings or criminal Crime: Lancashire investigations not for intelligence purposes. Home Office policy is neither to confirm nor deny whether a request Mr. Hendrick: To ask the Secretary of State for the for mutual legal assistance has been made or received. Home Department what the level of recorded crime The information on the amount of DNA or fingerprint was in Lancashire Constabulary area in (a) 1997 and material that has been shared with Interpol and Europol (b) the latest period for which figures are available. over the last five years is not currently available and [308582] could not be recovered without disproportionate cost. The Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA), which Mr. Alan Campbell: There were 119,755 offences processes requests, is able however to confirm that since recorded in Lancashire in 1997. There were 117,575 1 January 2008, the DNA profiles of 150 EU nationals offences recorded in 2008-09. However, it is important who have been convicted of serious offences in the UK to note that these two figures are not directly comparable. have been shared with Interpol for comparison purposes, Since 1997, there have been two major changes to the but not for sharing with member states. way crime is recorded. The coverage was extended and the counting rules revised in 1998-99 and the National Crime Recording Standard was introduced in April DNA: Databases 2002. For these reasons it is not possible to directly compare data for 1997 with that for 2008-09. Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Criminal Proceedings: Autism Home Department how many profiles were removed from the National DNA Database in each month of Mr. Burstow: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2009. [310112] Home Department which Minister in his Department is responsible for policy to implement proposals in the Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 12 January 2010]: autism strategy on improving the accessibility of the The following table shows the number of subject profiles criminal justice system; and if he will make a statement. removed from the National DNA Database (NDNAD) [308723] under the exceptional case procedure, i.e. following a request to the chief officer of the responsible police Mr. Alan Campbell: The matters raised in this question force, in each month of 2009. The table covers subject are the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice profiles submitted to the NDNAD by English and Welsh police forces and the British Transport police. Departmental Air Travel Number of subject profiles removed from the National DNA Database (NDNAD) under the Exceptional Case Procedure in each Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for the month of 2009 Home Department what his Department’s policy is on Number the accumulation and use of air miles by his Department’s personnel flying at public expense. [308485] January 17 February 20 Mr. Woolas: The Home Office policy on acceptance March 15 of gifts, hospitality and rewards states: Members of April 19 staff travelling by air on Government business, paid for May 36 from public funds, must not use any frequent flyer June 47 rewards such as air miles, ’two for one’ or equivalent July 50 schemes. However members of staff are entitled to August 35 associated benefits, such as priority booking and special September 43 lounges, when undertaking official travel. The receipt of October 37 any benefits accruing from official travel must be recorded November 22 in the hospitality book. In the case of gifts or benefits December 36 given for using a particular mode of transport it is Total 377 important that the mode of transport chosen is in accordance with departmental guidelines. This guidance is widely available to all Home Office staff. Human Trafficking DNA and Fingerprint Database Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department how many safe accommodation the Home Department pursuant to the answer to the beds his Department funds for trafficked persons who hon. Member for Newark of 30 November 2009, were not trafficked for sexual exploitation. [309601] 987W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 988W

Mr. Alan Campbell: Accommodation and support for Police community support officer strength1 (FTE)2 for Humberside as victims of trafficking for forced labour is provided on a at 31 March 2003 to 31 March 20093 case by case basis. This is funded by a grant agreement Number with Migrant Helpline. 2003 0 Since 1 April 2009 accommodation and support has 2004 0 been provided for a total of 68 people identified as 2005 20 victims of trafficking for forced labour. 2006 20 Human Trafficking: Children 2007 194 2008 318 Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2009 321 Home Department how many cases of potential child 1 This table contains full-time equivalent figures that have been victims of trafficking referred to the national referral rounded to the nearest whole number. 2 mechanism have been age-disputed. [309622] Full-time equivalent include those on career breaks or maternity/paternity leave. 3 Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 11 January 2010]: Police community support officers were introduced in statute in 2002, therefore data is not available prior to 2002-03. Information on the number of age disputed potential child trafficking cases is not held centrally. Competent authorities within the NRM make decisions on a case Illegal Immigrants by case basis on the information provided by front line staff or other NRM partners. While assessing each case competent authority staff will consider all aspects including Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the the age of the child but they do not contribute to any Home Department how many illegal immigrants the age assessment process. UK Border Agency (UKBA) has discovered to be working for contractors supplying UKBA uniforms. [309437] Humberside Police Alan Johnson [holding answer 7 January 2010]: There Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for is no record of any illegal migrant workers being the Home Department how many (a) police officers encountered by the UK Border Agency on the premises and (b) police community support officers there were of the firm contracted to supply UK Border Agency in the Humberside police force in each relevant year uniforms. since 1996. [309765] Mr. Hanson: Figures for each year (as at 31 March) from 1996 to 2009 appear in the table. Independent Safeguarding Authority: Manpower The first police community support officers started work in September 2002, following legislation which Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for the was introduced as part of the Police Reform Act 2002. Home Department how many caseworkers the Independent Therefore, data on police community support officers Safeguarding Authority employs at each grade to make are not available prior to 31 March 2003. barring decisions under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Police officer strength (FTE)1 for Humberside as at 31 March 1996 to Groups Act 2006; what the job specification is of such 31 March 2009 posts at each such grade; and what requirements there Number are in respect of (a) competencies and (b) professional training in relation to such posts at each such grade. 1996 2,041 [307863] 1997 2,045 1998 2,021 [holding answer 6 January 2010]: The 1999 1,974 numbers of employees at each grade who are responsible 2000 1,932 for making barring decisions is as follows: Operational 2001 1,917 unit head four casework team manager 17 caseworker 2002 2,058 decision maker 125 several competency areas are identified 20033 2,105 for casework staff including analysis and use of evidence, 20043 2,213 people management, communication, resilience, project 20053 2,230 and programme management. Each casework employee 20063 2,224 undergoes a Caseworker Development programme 20073 2,227 (CWDP) upon joining the ISA, which consists of six 20083 2,216 weeks of intensive training made up of classroom and 20093 2,078 practical experience. Following this, casework officers, 1 Full-time equivalent. All officers less staff on career breaks or decision makers, team managers and unit heads undertake maternity/paternity leave (comparable with previously published figures). the 2 This table contain full-time equivalent figures that have been rounded “University Certificate of Advanced Professional Development to the nearest whole number. 3 Comparable strength (excludes those on career breaks, or maternity/ (UCAPD)—Professional Decision Making in Independent paternity leave). The Police Numbers Task Force (2001) recommended Safeguarding Authority Casework”, that a clear presentation was made of the numbers of staff employed which is an Accredited Caseworker programme. The by police forces including those seconded into the force and those on UCAPD is accredited by Teesside university and awards any type of long or short term absence. These new calculations were first used in 2003, and are not comparable with data prior to March individuals 60 credits/units of an academic qualification. 2003. The data from 2003 onwards used here are termed comparable Copies of the job specifications are available in the because they have been calculated on the old basis to allow comparison. House Library. 989W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 990W

Iraq Committee of Inquiry Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for offences under the Licensing Act 2003 by police force area, 2005-071, 2 Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for the Police force Home Department (1) how many (a) documents and area 2005 2006 2007 (b) other items of information held in electronic format Greater 74837 at each security classification have been submitted to Manchester the Iraq Inquiry by his Department; and if he will make Hampshire — 3 9 a statement; [309365] Hertfordshire 1 33 27 (2) whether any (a) documents and (b) other items Humberside 1 2 3 of information in electronic format sought from his Kent — — 1 Department by the Iraq Inquiry have not been Lancashire — 21 41 disclosed owing to the Government’s obligations to Leicestershire — 27 65 foreign governments or international bodies; and if he Lincolnshire — 1 10 will make a statement; [310180] Merseyside — 7 37 (3) how many and what proportion of the (a) Metropolitan —87223 documents and (b) other items of information held in Police electronic format at each level of security classification Norfolk — 5 2 requested by the Iraq Inquiry have been provided to it North —2217 by his Department; and if he will make a statement; Yorkshire [310181] Northamptonshire 3 6 7 (4) how many (a) documents and (b) other items of Northumbria — 1 9 information held in electronic format at each level of Nottinghamshire — 11 8 security classification the Iraq Inquiry has requested South —104 from his Department; and if he will make a statement. Yorkshire [310182] Staffordshire — 25 31 Suffolk — 3 11 Mr. Hanson: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Surrey — 10 3 given by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Sussex — 21 23 the Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith) on 14 December Thames —426 2009, Official Report, columns 840-41W. Valley Warwickshire — 1 1 Licensing West Mercia — 5 8 West —3654 Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for the Midlands Home Department how many convictions for offences West —— 4 under the Licensing Act 2003 there have been in each Yorkshire police force area in each year since the implementation Wiltshire 1 4 8 [309962] of that Act; and if he will make a statement. Dyfed-Powys — 9 7 Mr. Alan Campbell: Information showing the number Gwent — 8 11 of defendants found guilty at all courts in England and North Wales 8 10 13 Wales from 2005 (when most sections of the Act came South Wales — 10 3 into force) to 2007 (latest available) for offences under Total England 25 474 789 the Licensing Act 2003 can be viewed in the following and Wales table. 1 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant Data for 2008 are planned for publication on 28 January has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence 2010. is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for offences under the 1, 2 selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is Licensing Act 2003 by police force area, 2005-07 the most severe. Police force 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are area 2005 2006 2007 accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems Avon and —49generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care Somerset should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their Bedfordshire — 1 1 inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are Cambridgeshire — 2 10 used. 3 Most sections within the 2003 Licensing Act came into force on 24 Cheshire 2 4 5 November 2005. City of —21Source: London Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice [Ref: IOS Cleveland — 7 18 013-10]. Cumbria — 3 2 Derbyshire 1 3 8 Devon and 141 Olympic Games 2012: Security Dorset — — 2 Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for the Durham — 2 6 Home Department what his most recent estimate is of Essex — 7 19 the security costs in respect of the London 2012 Gloucestershire — 5 4 Olympic Games. [310726] 991W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 992W

Mr. Hanson: The Government remain committed to UK Border Agency delivering the safety and security programme for the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games within the £600 million additional funding envelope for additional Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Secretary of State for spending which was announced by my right hon. Friend the Home Department what the reasons are for the the Minister for the Olympics in March 2007, together delay by the UK Border Agency in determining the with the budgets for security set for the Olympic Delivery case of a constituent of the hon. Member for Authority (ODA) and the London 2012 Organising Thurrock, reference N11 0518-CRTL5 included in the Committee (LOCOG), and the existing substantial Agency’s backlog of older cases; and how many other investment in security. cases are to be determined by the Agency prior to this case. [305800] Police: Training Mr. Woolas [holding answer 10 December 2009]: The Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for the UK Border Agency wrote to my hon. Friend in relation Home Department what training is given to police to his constituent’s case on 6 January 2010. With regards officers on the assessment of the physical and mental to case conclusion timeframes, the Case Resolution condition of individuals subject to a control order. Directorate (CRD) will give priority to cases that may [309969] pose a risk to the public, those that can be easily removed or given status and those receiving support at Mr. Hanson: All police officers receive training in the taxpayer’s expense. I can also confirm that the CRD making initial assessments of the physical and mental is fully committed to considering all unresolved cases health of members of the public that they interact with by summer 2011 and is on track to do so. during their basic training. Police officers involved in the management and enforcement of control orders are made aware of any known physical or mental conditions to help inform the United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre: police’s management of the controlled individual. In Publications the event that physical or mental health issues are identified by police officers in the course of their interaction with the controlled person, it is standard practice that Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home the police provide advice, where appropriate, to the Department if he will request the United Kingdom controlled individual on seeking medical support or Human Trafficking Centre to publish a report on its advice. The police will also inform the Home Office to activities as part of the national referral mechanism inform the management of the control order and the framework; and if he will make a statement. [309599] obligations it imposes.

Police: Weapons Mr. Alan Campbell: The activities of the UK Human Trafficking Centre (UKHTC) are already reported through the UK Action Plan on Tackling Human Trafficking, Dr. Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home which is published annually. This includes its activities Department what less lethal weapons are permitted to as part of the National Referral Mechanism (NRM). be used by police. [310080] In addition, the UKHTC’s website publishes information Mr. Alan Campbell: As well as personal protective regarding its work, and provides data from the NRM. equipment like batons and CS spray, police forces in After the transfer of the UKHTC’s legal entity to the England and Wales are permitted to use taser and the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA), which will attenuating energy projectile (AEP) round in accordance take effect from the start of the next financial year, with Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) guidance. SOCA’s annual report will include the UKHTC’s work— All less lethal weapons are subject to full and rigorous including activities undertaken as part of the NRM. testing and independent assessment of their medical implications prior to introduction. Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will request the United Kingdom Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 Human Trafficking Centre to publish a report on its activities to date. [309600] : To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will issue guidance to police forces on handling complaints relating to alleged Mr. Alan Campbell: The activities of the UK Human infringements of the provisions of the Regulation of Trafficking Centre (UKHTC) are reported through the Investigatory Powers Act 2000 in respect of (a) UK Action Plan on Tackling Human Trafficking, which internet and (b) other interceptions; and if he will is published annually. make a statement. [310544] In addition, the UKHTC’s website publishes information regarding its work, and provides data from the National Mr. Hanson [holding answer 12 January 2010]: Ihave Referral Mechanism (NRM). After the transfer of the no plans to issue guidance to police forces in respect of UKHTC’s legal entity to the Serious Organised Crime the offence of unlawful interception set out in Section 1 Agency (SOCA), which will take effect from the start of (1) of Part 1, Chapter one of the Regulation of Investigatory the next financial year, SOCA’s annual report will include Powers Act (RIPA) 2000. the UKHTC’s work. 993W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 994W

DEFENCE Table 1: Initial ear/nose/throat attendances at UK field hospitals by year and operational area Number Armed Forces: Hearing Impaired All Iraq Afghanistan All 1846 1682 1164 2003 1290 1290 — Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2004 102 102 — (1) what progress has been made in the provision of hearing protection for service personnel since 2001; 2005 74 74 — 2006 1101 76 125 [309691] 2007 120 64 56 (2) how many service personnel are recorded as 2008 126 62 64 having experienced hearing loss as a consequence of 2009 133 114 119 their duty in each year since 1990. [309693] 1 Figures cover from March 2003 to April 2009 for Iraq and April 2006 to May 2009 for Afghanistan Mr. : The Ministry of Defence is continually The numbers of UK personnel in the last 10 years looking at ways of monitoring and mitigating the risk who have left the Services with a medical discharge with in operational areas, including the development of improved a principal cause given as hearing loss are shown in hearing protection which does not hamper the operational Table 2. Note that such discharges cannot be specifically effectiveness of combat personnel. linked to operational exposure. Table 2: Medical Discharges with a principal cause of hearing loss, The Surgeon General (SG) has set up a multi-disciplinary 1 January 1999 to 31 December 2008 Defence Hearing Working Group (DHWG) to address Number the impact of current operations on the incidence of 1Naval noise-induced hearing loss (NIHL) in serving personnel, ICD 10 Cause Group Service Army RAF set in the wider context of the Health and Safety-led MOD Hearing Conservation Programme, changing All 51 155 45 Diseases of the ear (H60- 26 65 17 legislation and emerging technology. Compared with H62), H65-H75 and H80- civilians who may suffer hearing loss due to industrial H83) noise exposure, the relationship between troops’ exposure of which: to noise on military operations and hearing impairment Noise-induced hearing 8395 is a complex one. Since January 2009, MOD has been loss (H833) working with the charity Deafness Research UK to Other disorders of ear 25 90 28 develop a number of lines of research that will not only (H-90-H95) provide a more robust means of diagnosis but will also 1 Includes Royal Marines and Royal Navy ensure that personnel have the most effective possible This table is not subdivided by year as, in accordance protection from hearing loss. Deafness Research UK with Office of National Statistics guidelines, numbers hosted a highly successful symposium in December less than five would be suppressed by reason of patient 2009, bringing together experts from the field of hearing confidentiality, which would effectively obscure all impairment with members of the Defence Hearing information provided. Working Group. Regarding protective systems, on the present deployment Armed Forces: Housing in Afghanistan, some 3,000 sets of an improved hearing protection system known as personalised interfaced Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence hearing protection (PIHP) are in use by front-line troops. (1) what recent estimate he has made of the cost to This innovative system has been designed to protect Modern Housing Solutions of upgrading all properties against impulse and continuous noise, to be comfortable it manages under contract to his Department to energy to wear for prolonged periods, to be compatible with efficiency Standard Assessment Procedure 81; [309646] personal radios, not to interfere with equipment designed (2) how many of his Department’s properties managed to counter improvised explosive devices, and to allow under contract to Modern Housing Solutions have an the user to keep situational awareness. energy efficiency Standard Assessment Procedure 81; Data held centrally does not allow a comprehensive [309647] summary of how many Service personnel are recorded (3) how many of his Department’s properties managed as having experienced hearing loss as a consequence of by Modern Housing Solutions have an energy efficiency their duty in each year since 1990. The DHWG work rating of (a) A, (b) B, (c) C, (d) D, (e) E, (f) F and now in progress includes improved data capture to (g) G. [309648] allow the effects of current operations on the hearing of personnel to be assessed op a proper basis. However, Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 January 2010]: patients who have attended or been admitted to our The Department does not use standard assessment field hospitals in Iraq and Afghanistan within the ’ear/nose/ procedure (SAP) ratings to assess the energy efficiency throat’ (ENT) medical classification can be identified. of service family accommodation homes. Defence Estates These data are shown in Table 1 and include UK uses the EcoHomes06 sustainability assessment model Service personnel, other NATO forces, civilians (both for all major improvement works and new build projects. UK and nationals) and detainees. Note that this information This is an industry recognised environmental performance is not limited to those with complaints related to hearing assessment model and covers a wider range of damage, but includes all ENT patients. environmental impacts than the SAP. 995W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 996W

Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Kevan Jones: The majority of advertising conducted what the (a) longest, (b) shortest and (c) average by the Ministry of Defence is part of the drive to recruit period of time taken was to make repairs to forces the best personnel to the armed forces. The recruitment accommodation after a call out in the last period for advertising for the armed forces is conducted through which figures are available. [310247] the Central Office of Information, and those costs are shown in the following table. Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 January 2010]: I Armed forces recruitment media spend refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave on 6 July £ million 2009, Official Report, column 552W,to the hon. Member Print Online and for Woodspring (Dr. Fox). (press and interactive TV and Additional information is currently being collated poster) TV cinema Radio and verified. I will write to the hon. Member as soon as 2004-05 2.0 0.8 26.3 2.3 possible. 2005-06 2.5 1.6 15.2 2.2 2006-07 1.8 2.3 10.1 1.3 Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2007-08 5.2 2.8 18.7 1.6 whether families are allowed to view armed services’ 2008-09 3.6 4.3 17.4 1.5 accommodation before occupying it. [310248] The Department may promote other initiatives such Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 January 2010]: as armed forces day. Spend relating to these activities, While this Department will do all it can to facilitate where it is available centrally, is shown in the following families who wish to view service family accommodation table. The figures given include creative and production (SFA) prior to occupation, for practical reasons this is costs, as well as media spend. Figures are not available not always possible to guarantee. However, we are currently centrally for all advertising spend and could be provided introducing “estate agent” style information packs for only at disproportionate cost. all UK SFA properties in order to provide occupants with key information relating to their future home. Spend (£ million) Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2004-05 23.8 how many calls have been made to his Department’s 2005-06 23.5 special forces housing helpline in the last 12 months. 2006-07 21.0 [310249] 2007-08 33.6 2008-09 37.4 Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 January 2010]: There are several dedicated housing helplines and the Figures are not available prior to financial year 2004-05 information will take a little time to collect. I will write and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. to the hon. Member with the information requested. Figures for 2009-10 are not yet available.

Defence Storage and Distribution Agency Departmental Conferences

Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State whether he plans to sell in whole or in part the Defence for Defence how much was spent by his Department Storage and Distribution Agency; and if he will make a and its agencies on conferences they organised which statement. [309770] were subsequently cancelled in each of the last three years; and what the title was of each such conference. Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of [308824] State for Defence what plans he has for the future of the Defence Storage and Distribution Agency at Ashchurch, Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally Gloucestershire; and if he will make a statement. and could only be provided at disproportionate cost. [310010]

Mr. Quentin Davies [holding answer 11 January 2010]: Departmental Information and Communications The Operational Efficiency Programme review of the Technology Defence Storage and Distribution Agency (DSDA) has recently concluded, and we are currently considering its Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendations. No decisions to sell the DSDA in Defence if he will commission research into possible whole or in part have been taken, and all options links between the use of memory sticks on the information currently remain open. technology platforms used by his Department and cyber- attacks on the computer systems its operates. [302670] Departmental Advertising Bill Rammell: The MOD takes any attacks on its Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for information networks and associated media storage Defence how much his Department has spent on (a) devices very seriously and has robust procedures in print, (b) online, (c) television and (d) radio place to mitigate against and investigate such occurrences. advertising in each of the last five years; how much has Furthermore new processes, instructions and technological been spent on advertising in 2009-10 to date; and what aids are continually being implemented to mitigate human percentage of advertising expenditure in each year was errors and raise the awareness of every individual in the managed by the Central Office of Information. [309901] Department with regards to cyber security. 997W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 998W

If malicious software is detected on either a network Mr. Quentin Davies: The procurement process for or a memory stick its origin is researched to gain insight Joint Combat Aircraft remains at a very early stage. We for its subsequent containment, and mitigation practices have not taken the final investment decision and at this are introduced. However no specific instances of deliberate stage cannot confirm overall numbers or the in-service attack, successful or otherwise, would ever be publicly date. On 18 March 2009, Official Report, column 54WS divulged so as to protect the integrity of the networks the then Secretary of State for Defence announced the from widespread scrutiny and invoke further malicious purchase of the first three Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) attempts. All related security issues are investigated aircraft. This will enable the UK to conduct, along side thoroughly by a number of related MOD cyber the US, a joint Initial Operational Test and Evaluation organisations and the MOD has established significant programme, the results of which will inform our decision relationships with other agencies to assist in security of the required size of the overall fleet. The cost of an issues, mitigation and risk management. These include individual JSF aircraft will depend upon how many we, working with Centre for the Protection of the National and other nations, buy and when we place the order. Infrastructure (CPNI), the CESG (as the National Technical Authority), Other Government Departments and foreign Members: Correspondence allies. The MOD has also established ongoing strong relationships with the Office of Cyber Security (OCS) Sir Michael Spicer: To ask the Secretary of State for and Cyber Security Operations Centre (CSOC) to help Defence when he expects to reply to the email from maintain awareness of threats and vulnerabilities. These the hon. Member for West Worcestershire dated engagements together ensure our cyber defences are as 1 December 2009 on the Taliban. [310014] robust as possible. Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 January 2010]: On the technical front there are ongoing developments The hon. Member’s email was not sent to the correct across Government on cyber to increase the protection address. It has now been resent and a response will be of the infrastructure from attack. These include revised provided shortly. policies on the use of portable media and enhancements to the MOD’s Defence Information Infrastructure (DII) Military Aircraft: Accidents Computer Network Defence (CND) architecture and also the introduction of measures that ensure only Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence MOD-procured memory sticks can link with the DII what steps he plans to take in response to evidence on network. software problems linked to the 1994 Chinook crash. Every MOD employee now has to undergo mandatory [310082] annual Protecting Information training which aims to increase awareness and understanding of information Bill Rammell: The issues raised about the FADEC security issues. software were known at the time and had been factored into the operating instructions for the Chinook Mk 2. Future Large Aircraft Military Aircraft: Helicopters Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what technical problems were encountered (a) Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in preparation for and (b) during the recent maiden what his latest estimate is of the average operating cost test flight of the Airbus 400M in Spain. [308621] per flight hour of a Sea King helicopter. [309664]

Mr. Quentin Davies: The first flight of A400M took Mr. Quentin Davies: The average operating cost per place on 11 December 2009, less than four weeks after flying hour of a Sea King helicopter in FY 2009-10 is the aircraft was handed over to the flight test team. approximately £14,000. This includes forward and depth During early testing, a number of minor issues were servicing, fuel costs, crew costs, training costs and the identified and resolved prior to first flight, as is normal cost of capital charge and depreciation. for these events. During the first flight itself, a number Military Aircraft: Training of minor anomalies were found which were successfully managed by the flight test crew. The relevant details Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence have been made available to Partner Nations in confidence. whether the circumstances surrounding the Chinook As is demonstrated by the three and three quarter hour accident in Scotland on 2 June 1994 have been the flight, which is at the upper end of the planned maximum subject of a completed simulation using test pilots; and duration, none of these anomalies were considered if he will make a statement. [309995] significant or in any way compromised aircraft safety. A successful second flight was undertaken on 23 December Bill Rammell: The flight was subject to modelling by 2009 with a third flight undertaken on 7 January 2010. Boeing, the aircraft’s manufacturer, as part of the original It is considered that publication of details of the investigation, and again following the report of the actual issues could lead to misinterpretation and may House of Lords Committee. There has been no attempt inadvertently release company sensitive information. to conduct a complete “live” simulation, and the facts of the case do not warrant one. Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for whether further attempts will be made to simulate possible Defence how many F35 Joint Strike Fighters he plans full authority digital engine-related causes of the 1994 to purchase; and what his most recent estimate is of the Chinook accident; and if he will make a statement. cost of each such fighter. [302459] [309996] 999W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1000W

Bill Rammell: The 1994 Chinook accident was thoroughly Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for investigated at the time, by the Aircraft Accident Communities and Local Government what his Investigation Branch, and with the assistance of Boeing, Department’s most recent estimate is of the rate of the aircraft’s manufacturer, who conducted simulations non-compliance with the requirement to produce an of the final flight, specifically including consideration energy performance certificate in respect of (a) domestic of FADEC as a factor. There are no plans to conduct properties marketed for (i) sale and (ii) rent in the any further simulation. private sector, (b) domestic properties marketed for rent in the social sector and (c) commercial properties Somalia: Piracy offered for sale or rent. [309403] Mr. Gregory Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what steps his Department has taken to : The Department does not hold the assist UK-registered vessels following the most recent information in the format required to answer this question. hijacking in waters around the coast of Somalia. However, information about the number of energy performance certificates (EPCs) that have been produced [310416] is available from the EPC Register. Information about Bill Rammell: The MOD has been working the number of EPCs produced in relation to domestic comprehensively with Government Departments and properties is available on the Domestic EPC Register international coalitions to find ways to support shipping and the same information for non-domestic properties transiting through the Gulf of Aden, focusing in particular is available on the Non-Domestic EPC Register. Both on minimising the risk of pirate attack on merchant the Domestic and the Non-Domestic EPC Register can shipping. This includes the offer of group transits to be accessed from the following website address: vulnerable vessels using the internationally recognised http://www.epcregister.com/ transit corridor, protected by international forces, and the provision of planning advice and support to mariners Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for by the Royal Navy manned UK Maritime Trade Operations Communities and Local Government what his office. Department’s most recent estimate is of the number of The UK Government endorse the advice prepared by public buildings required to have a display energy certificate the contact group on piracy off the coast of Somalia, which do not have such a certificate. [309404] and endorsed by the International Maritime Organisation, which provides specific advice to global shipping on John Healey: Compliance with the directive is a matter how to prevent, deter and delay acts of piracy off the for local weights and measures. There are approximately Horn of Africa, notably through inexpensive and simple 42,000 public buildings that require a display energy self-protection measures, as well as through advice on certificate (DEC). The current number of lodgements course and speed. can be found on the following website: The Shipping Defence Advisory Committee, jointly https://www.ndepcregister.com/lodgementStats.html chaired by industry and the MOD and supported by other Government Departments is proving to be a good Home Information Packs forum for liaison and a two-way mechanism for providing advice. The shipping industry is also providing liaison Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for officers to the EU counter-piracy operation Atalanta Communities and Local Government (1) what his headquarters at Northwood. Department’s most recent estimate is of the number of The Maritime Security Centre Horn of Africa website people who have paid fees to train as home inspectors; (www.mschoa.org), created and maintained by the EU how many people are undertaking such training; and if operation, contains general advice to shipping companies. he will make a statement; [309405] We encourage all UK shipping to register with this (2) with reference to the answer to the hon. Member website and transit through the internationally recognised for Meriden of 6 November 2006, Official Report, transit corridor in addition to adhering to the latest column 875W, on home inspectors, what assessment his maritime advisories in force throughout the piracy threat Department has made of the effects on the job region. opportunities of people who have trained to become home inspectors of the decision to implement home condition reports on a voluntary basis; [309406] COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (3) how many (a) people have trained to become home inspectors and (b) home condition reports have Energy Performance Certificates been commissioned on a voluntary basis since the implementation of home information pack regulations; Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent estimate [309407] his Department has made of the effect on the level of (4) with reference to the answer to the hon. Member energy efficiency of (a) owner-occupied dwellings, (b) for Meriden of 6 November 2006, Official Report, private rented dwellings and (c) the commercial property column 875W, on home inspectors, what recent sector of the introduction of energy performance certificates. assessment he has made of the extent of voluntary [309402] roll-out of home condition reports; and if he will make a statement. [309408] John Healey: No estimate has been made, as yet, of the effect on the level of energy efficiency of buildings John Healey: The home condition report (HCR) following the introduction of energy performance remains authorised for inclusion in the home information certificates. pack (HIP) on a voluntary basis and certificated home 1001W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1002W inspectors are accredited to produce domestic energy Average (median) length of residence (so far) at current address by performance certificates (EPCs) which are a required tenure, England: All households component of the home information pack. No such Years assessment of the job opportunities of home inspectors Owner has been made. occupiers Social renters Private renters Communities and Local Government does not hold 2003-04 11.0 7.5 1.6 information on the number of people who have paid 2004-05 11.5 7.4 1.5 fees to train as home inspectors, or the number of 2005-06 11.8 7.7 1.6 people who have undertaken or are undertaking such 2006-07 11.6 7.8 1.7 training. The most recent figure supplied to us by the 2007-08 11.9 7.8 1.5 national EPC and HCR register operator, shows that 1 Estimates are presented in decimal format. An estimate of 11.5 years there are 971 certificated home inspectors as of 4 January means 11 years 6 months. 2010. This figure may include duplicate numbers of Source: those home inspectors who have registered with more Survey of English Housing, SEH15 dataset than one certification scheme. Although since the decision in July 2006 to make the HCR an authorised rather than required document, we CABINET OFFICE continued to promote the benefits of including an HCR within a HIP. However, take-up has been disappointing with only 327 reports lodged on the central register Jobseeker’s Allowance: Wales since 1 August 2007 and it is clear that the product as it stands is not seen as the right one either by consumers Jenny Willott: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet or industry. Office how many and what proportion of jobseeker’s We still believe that consumers should be better informed allowance claimants in each constituency in Wales had about any property they are looking to buy before been claiming the allowance for (a) up to three, (b) making what is undoubtedly one of the biggest purchases between three and six, (c) between six and 12 and (d) of their lives and that they want information about the between 12 and 24 months in each month since September condition of homes before they commit to buying them. 2009; and if she will make a statement. [310509] As a result Margaret Beckett established the Working Group on condition information in the home buying Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls and selling process to explore options for ensuring within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. consumers receive appropriate information about a I have asked the authority to reply. property’s condition before they commit to buy, by Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2010: building on existing products such as the HCR, and As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I creating opportunities for all practitioners including have been asked to reply to your Parliamentary Question concerning home inspectors. how many and what proportion of jobseeker’s allowance claimants in each constituency in Wales had been claiming the allowance for Housing: Owner Occupation (a) up to three, (b) between three and six, (c) between six and 12 and (d) between 12 and 24 months in each month since September Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009. (310509) Communities and Local Government what the average The Office for National Statistics (ONS) compiles the number length of tenure was in (a) an owner-occupied dwelling, of claimants of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) from the Jobcentre Plus administrative system. Table 1 shows the number of computerised (b) a private rented dwelling and (c) a social rented claims of Jobseeker’s Allowance (JSA) for people, aged 16 or over dwelling in each year since 1997. [308265] resident in each parliamentary constituency in Wales, by duration of the claim. Table 2 shows the percentage of all claimants in each Mr. Ian Austin: Estimates of the average (median) constituency by duration of the claim. length of residence at the current address for owner National and local area estimates for many labour market occupiers, social renters and private renters are provided statistics, including employment, unemployment and claimant in the following table for each year from 1997-98 to count are available on the NOMIS website at: 2007-08 inclusive. These estimates are based on data http://www.nomisweb.co.uk from the Survey of English Housing. The survey is only Tables 1 and 2 will be placed in the Library of the House. able to estimate the average length of time that residents have been in their accommodation at the time of interview, Official Residences: Repairs and Maintenance this will not be the overall length of time that they will eventually spend in that accommodation. Mr. Pickles: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Average (median) length of residence (so far) at current address by tenure, England: All households Office with reference to the answer of 20 March 2008, Official Report, column 1303W, on official residences: Years repairs and maintenance, what the cost was of the Owner occupiers Social renters Private renters works associated with Crown Proposal 08/00696/1884. [308315] 1997-98 10.8 7.1 1.5 1998-99 11.1 7.0 1.6 Angela E. Smith: Information on capital expenditure 1999-2000 11.3 6.8 1.6 in 2008-09 on improving Cabinet Office buildings, including 2000-01 11.2 6.9 1.5 the Downing street estate are included in the annual 2001-02 11.5 7.2 1.5 Cabinet Office resource accounts. Copies are available 2002-03 11.3 7.8 1.7 in the Library of the House. 1003W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1004W

WOMEN AND EQUALITY certain respects. We are studying these Reasoned Opinions carefully and will reply to the Commission towards the Departmental Internet end of January.

Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for Women and National Equality Panel Equality which websites her Department’s staff are blocked from accessing on networked computers. Robert Neill: To ask the Minister for Women and [310764] Equality what groups have been invited to submit evidence for consideration by the National Equality Panel in its Michael Jabez Foster: The Government Equalities investigation into inequality. [308680] Office uses intranet services provided by the Department for Communities and Local Government (CLG). Access Michael Jabez Foster: The National Equality Panel is blocked to unacceptable internet sites and in addition sent invitations to a range of equality lobby groups and staff are instructed not to attempt to access unacceptable academics to submit evidence to the National Equality sites. Panel’s call for evidence on economic inequality in the Examples of the types of websites which are blocked UK, in November 2008 to the end of January 2009. and must not be accessed are those which are: These groups included: Pornographic EHRC Discriminatory Age Concern/Help the Aged Racist Children’s Right’s Alliance Sexist Child Commissioner Homophobic Child Poverty Action Group or those which: Stonewall Contain material, the possession of which would constitute a Lesbian and Gay Foundation criminal offence, or 1990 Trust Promote or incite any form of criminal or terrorist activity. The Runnymede Trust It is not possible to list all the sites covered by these Operation Black Vote restrictions. The Evangelical Alliance The Muslim Council of Great Britain Equality and Human Rights Commission: Databases British Humanist Association The Interfaith Network Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister for Women and Equality what the timetable is for the creation The Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales of the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s The Church of England lifestyle database; and what data sources will be used to The National Secular Society create it. [309396] The Jewish Board of Deputies The Hindu Council : The Equality and Human Rights The British Council of Disabled People Commission will be developing its Equality Measurement Leonard Cheshire Foundation Framework over the next 18 months and will make available some data by the autumn of 2010. MENCAP MIND The Equality Measurement Framework will in large part use existing information sources from national RADAR surveys and administrative data sets, such as statistics RNIB from the British Crime Survey, Census, Crown Prosecution RNID Service, Health and Safety Executive, Labour Force SCOPE Survey and Office for National Statistics Opinions Survey. Women’s National Commission The Commission will also be asking data providers to Fawcett Society consider developing these sources in ways that will National Alliance of Women Organisations allow more analysis which would be utilised by the Press for Change Equality Measurement Framework. However no new CBI data collection burden is expected to fall on individual employers or other private organisations. British Retail Consortium Federation of Small Business EU Anti-Discrimination Legislation ACAS Audit Commission Philip Davies: To ask the Minister for Women and ABI Equality what recent assessment she has made of the IDeA UK’s level of compliance with EU anti-discrimination National and Diversity Forum legislation. [308221] National Council for Voluntary Organisations Maria Eagle: The European Commission sent two TUC Reasoned Opinions to the UK Government on Consumer Focus 20 November which questioned the compliance of our Engineering Employers Federation domestic legislation with two European directives in The Tax Payers Alliance 1005W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1006W

Policy Exchange Departmental Buildings Institute for Public Policy Research Sarah Teather: To ask the Solicitor-General what the Pensions Policy Institute (a) area and (b) estimated value is of (i) vacant and Institute for Employment Studies (ii) occupied office space (A) owned and (B) rented by The New Policy Institute her Department. [310521] One Parent Families The Solicitor-General: The Attorney Generals’ Office Shelter occupies a single rented property which contains 1157sq And academics: metres of office space. The annual rental cost is £462,820. Professor. Danny Dorling All of the available space is occupied. Professor. Jane Falkingham Professor. Maria Evandrou Iraq Committee of Inquiry Dr. Anne Green Professor Mark Stewart Jenny Willott: To ask the Solicitor-General (1) how many (a) documents and (b) other items of information Professor Gary Craig held in electronic format by the Law Officers Departments Dr. Gloria Gordon of each security classification have been submitted to Glen Bramley the Iraq Inquiry; and if she will make a statement; Jay Ginn [309369] The invitation to submit evidence was also put online (2) whether any (a) documents and (b) other items for anybody to respond to. of information in electronic format sought from the We received 25 responses, which are available online Law Officers’ Departments by the Iraq Inquiry have at: not been disclosed owing to the Government’s http://www.equalities.gov.uk/national_equality_panel/ obligations to foreign governments or international call_for_evidence.aspx bodies; and if she will make a statement; [310176] (3) how many and what proportion of the (a) documents and (b) other items of information held in electronic format at each level of security classification SOLICITOR-GENERAL requested by the Iraq Inquiry have been provided to it by the Law Officers’ Departments; and if she will make Corruption a statement; [310186] (4) how many (a) documents and (b) other types of Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Solicitor-General information held in electronic format at each level of what guidelines have been issued to prosecutors on security classification the Iraq Inquiry has requested cases involving overseas corruption; and if she will from the Law Officers’ Departments; and if she will make a statement. [310005] make a statement. [310194]

The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office has The Solicitor-General: I refer the hon. Member to the published on its website a guide entitled ’Approach of answer given to her by the Secretary of State for the the Serious Fraud Office to dealing with overseas Cabinet Office (Angela E. Smith) on 14 December corruption’, which outlines the guidance available, see 2009, Official Report, column 840-41W. the following link: http://www.sfo.gov.uk/media/28313/approach%20of%20the Israel %20sfo%20to%20dealing%20with%20overseas%20corruption.pdf In addition, the Crown Prosecution Service has legal Richard Burden: To ask the Solicitor-General what guidance for prosecutors in relation to prosecuting offences meetings the Attorney-General had during her visit to of bribery and corruption. The guidance is published Israel in January 2010 at which the subject of the on the CPS website and is available at operation of the law of universal jurisdiction in the UK http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/bribery_and_corruption/ in relation to the possibility of Israeli officials, There is also prosecution guidance on corporate politicians or military personnel being arrested if they offending, which has relevance to bribery and corruption travel to the UK was discussed. [310075] offences, and is available at: http://www.sfo.gov.uk/media/65228/coml%20joint%20 The Solicitor-General [holding answer 11 January 2010]: guidance%20on%20corporate%20prosecutions%20for%20 The matter was raised with the Attorney-General in publication.pdf meetings she had with Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon and Minister of Justice Yaacov Ne’eman on 5 Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Solicitor-General January. In addition the issue was discussed at a meeting whether the Serious Fraud Office has received the Attorney had in Ramallah on 6 January with the representations on its policy document Approach of Independent Commission on Human Rights and the Serious Fraud Office to dealing with overseas representatives from the Addameer Prisoners Support corruption. [310006] and Human Rights Association.

The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud office has Richard Burden: To ask the Solicitor-General if she received helpful feedback on the guidance including will place in the Library a copy of the speech by the offering assistance as it embeds and develops. Attorney General to the Hebrew University of 1007W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1008W

Jerusalem in January 2010 on the operation of the law The National Fraud Authority is unable to disclose of universal jurisdiction in the UK in relation to the this information for reasons of confidentiality. This possibility of Israeli officials, politicians or military applies to the period since the Agency’s launch in 2008 personnel being arrested if they travel to the UK. to present. [310077] The Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) has maintained a central record of staff convicted of more significant The Solicitor-General [holding answer 11 January 2009]: criminal offences from the year 2000. The CPS does not A copy of the Attorney General’s Lionel Cohen Lecture maintain centralised records of staff convicted of minor at Hebrew university is available on the website of the criminal acts and would incur disproportionate cost in British Embassy in Israel: retrieving this information. http://ukinisrael.fco.gov.uk/en/ Due to the very small number of staff convicted for and I will arrange for a copy to be deposited in the more serious offences for each year, the CPS is not Library of the House. prepared to disclose the specific details on grounds of confidentiality. The following table provides information on the number of more serious convictions of CPS staff Mr. Marshall-Andrews: To ask the Solicitor-General between 2000 and 2009: what (a) groups and (b) individuals the Attorney General met on her visit to Israel on 5 January 2010. Criminal convictions for significant offences [310435] Number 2000 1 The Solicitor-General: On 5 January 2010 the Attorney 2001 4 General met with Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon 2002 3 and Minister of Justice Yaacov Ne’eman with 2003 3 accompanying officials. She also met with the President 2004 1 of the Supreme Court, Dorit Beinish and had an informal 2005 3 lunch with other Justices of the Supreme Court. 2006 3 Additionally she met with the Professor Menahem Ben- 2007 2 Sasson, President of Hebrew university and delivered a 2008 4 lecture to an audience of students, faculty members and 2009 1 media at the university. The following day she had further meetings in Ramallah with the Palestinian Minister Revenue and Customs Prosecution Office (RCPO) of Justice AH Khashan and Attorney General Ahmad became an independent Prosecutions Office on 18 April Al-Mughani, Chief Justice of the Supreme Judicial 2005 and was merged with the Crown Prosecution Council Dr Jallad, as well as representatives from the Service on 1 January 2010. There are no records of any Independent Commission for Human Rights and former RCPO employees having been convicted of a representatives from Addameer Prisoner Support and criminal offence. Human Rights Association.

Mr. Marshall-Andrews: To ask the Solicitor-General whether the Attorney General’s recent visit to Israel JUSTICE was arranged before 12 December 2009. [310436] Defamation The Solicitor-General: Yes. The Attorney General was fulfilling a commitment to deliver the Lionel Cohen Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Lecture for 2009 at Hebrew university. This lecture was (1) what assessment he has made of the merits of originally scheduled for June 2009, but was rearranged establishing a libel tribunal as the preliminary forum following the postponement of a visit at that time. for libel cases; [309689] (2) what assessment he has made of the merits of Offenders setting an upper limit for damages in libel cases. [309690]

Chris Huhne: To ask the Solicitor-General how many Bridget Prentice: In response to concerns about the employees of the Law Officers’ Departments have been possibility that our libel laws are having a chilling effect convicted of a criminal offence of each type in each on freedom of expression, the Government are setting year since 1997. [308505] up a working group to examine issues relating to the substantive law on libel. The terms of reference of this The Solicitor-General: The Attorney Generals’ Office, group are Treasury Solicitors and HM Crown Prosecution Service “to consider whether the law of libel, including the law relating to Inspectorate have no recorded instances of any member libel tourism, in England and Wales needs reform, and if so to of staff being convicted of a criminal offence during make recommendations as to solutions.” this period. The group will determine the priorities on which it In respect of the Serious Fraud Office and the National wishes to focus, which may include the issues to which Fraud Authority there have been fewer than five the hon. Member’s questions refer. prosecutions or convictions of staff in any one year. The working group will include media and defamation Therefore this information is withheld on grounds of lawyers, academics, and representatives from those confidentiality. campaigning for libel reform and the scientific community. 1009W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1010W

The scope of the group’s considerations will extend to Date of visit Venue all aspects of substantive libel law in England and Wales, but will exclude issues relating to costs in defamation 12 Annual Youth Justice Convention and Wirral Youth proceedings, where work is already under way. The November Offending Service working group is intended to have an intensive, short-term focus and has been requested to make recommendations 2010 by mid-March. 8 January Plymouth Probation Offices Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what recent assessment he has made of the effectiveness Departmental Internet of measures to reduce defamation proceedings costs introduced on 1 October 2009. [309763] David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will list the redesigns of websites operated Bridget Prentice: The Government indicated in the by (a) his Department and (b) its agencies since response to the consultation ‘Controlling costs in 27 June 2007; and what the (i) cost to the public purse defamation proceedings’, published on 24 September and (ii) date of completion of each such redesign was. 2009, that we would be monitoring the effect of the [306165] pilot and considering what further measures are needed to control costs in this area. The impact assessment Mr. Wills: A major refresh was carried out in early further confirmed that the costs budgeting pilot would 2009 to improve the quality of the Ministry of Justice be reviewed after six months and that the measures website: relating to ATE insurance would be reviewed in the www.justice.gov.uk light of the recommendations arising from Lord Justice Costs include research, redesign, prototype build and Jackson’s review of civil litigation costs which I understand content migration by external suppliers. It is not possible will be published on 14 January 2010. to separately identify the in-house staffing costs associated Departmental Assets with this project and therefore these costs are not included. There were also no hosting or infrastructure changes. Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for (i) Cost: £92,968.75 Justice what assets of his Department are planned to be (ii) Completed: April 2009 sold in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; what the (i) Visitors to the MOJ website have more than doubled description and (ii) book value is of each such asset; since the creation of the Department in May 2007 and what the expected revenue is from each such sale; and user research demonstrated a need to improve the user by what date each such asset is expected to have been experience, providing easier access to information and sold. [309921] services and delivering more engaging content. The redesigned website delivered simpler navigation, improved Mr. Wills: I refer the hon. Member to the response news and consultations pages, enhanced search functionality provided by my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of and the capability to deliver visual and audio content State for Justice and Lord Chancellor (Mr. Straw) on 5 (i.e. embedding YouTube). January 2010, Official Report, column 50W. As there is more use of the internet for Government Departmental Domestic Visits services, we need to make information about the work of the Department more readily available to citizens and the media, enhancing transparency and accountability Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for what we do. All our internet users—who include how many planned visits by Ministers in his Department legal practitioners, academics and researchers—are able within the UK were cancelled within 72 hours of the to use the range of resources published on our website visit taking place in the last 12 months; and what the either to work more efficiently within the justice system planned venue or venues were for each such visit. or to engage with the Department’s day-to-day work [309874] and to contribute to our published consultations on proposals for change. This is the basis for investment in Mr. Wills: From January 2009 to January 2010, there better web services for citizens. were seven ministerial visits cancelled with less than 72 hours notice. The following table details the dates (a) Other website redesign work carried out since 27 June and venues. 2007 for agencies of the Ministry of Justice: Ministers appreciate the preparation and effort that Office of the Public Guardian goes into organising their visits; as such, any decision to www.publicguardian.gov.uk cancel a visit will have been due to adverse weather, Cost is for work by external suppliers and does not include travel disruptions or essential parliamentary business. in-house staffing costs: (i) Cost: £14,981.25 Date of visit Venue (ii) Completed: October 2007. 2009 Tribunals service www.tribunals.gov.uk 2 February Visit to East Hertfordshire Probation 5 February Nottingham Speakers Corner Trust Event carried out a redesign using in-house resources. It is not possible to separately identify the in-house staffing costs associated 5 February Portsmouth Combined Court and Judge Black with this project. 26 February Rainsbrook Secure Training Centre (i) Cost: not separately identified 27 March HMP Bronzefield (ii) Completed: November 2008. 1011W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1012W

Human Trafficking Maria Eagle: NAPO and Unison will be informed about planned reductions to staffing levels in National Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Offender Management Service (NOMS) headquarters where potential victims of trafficking are accommodated through the NOMS Trade Union Consultation Meeting whilst their case is assessed by the competent authority structure alongside other trade unions representing NOMS staff. under the national referral mechanism. [309602] Prisoners Release Claire Ward: Potential victims of trafficking are able to access specialist supported accommodation from the Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice time a referral is made into the national referral mechanism pursuant to the answers of 24 November 2009, Official (NRM). This accommodation may be provided by the Report, column 85W and 1 December 2009, Official Government-funded service provider—the Poppy Project, Report, column 590W, on prisoners’ release, whether or by other third sector organisations. This support is the investigating officer’s report was completed by available throughout the NRM process. Additionally, 4 December 2009; on what date he expects to write to victims that claim asylum are eligible for asylum support the hon. Member for West Chelmsford; and if he will and may be accommodated by the National Asylum make a statement. [308235] Support Service (NASS). Potential victims of trafficking under the age of 18 are accommodated by local authorities. Maria Eagle: The investigating officer’s report was completed on 4 December 2009. I wrote to the hon. Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Member on 13 January 2010. how many safe accommodation beds for victims of human trafficking his Department plans to fund over the next three years. [309603] INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Claire Ward: The Government have invested £3.9 million Departmental Surveys over two years (2009-10 to 2010-11) in specialist services for victims of all forms of human trafficking. This Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for investment provides 54 safe accommodation beds on a International Development if he will place in the Library rolling basis through the Poppy Project, and includes a copy of the results of his Department’s most recent flexible support and safe accommodation arrangements staff survey; which organisation carried out the survey; for victims of trafficking for forced labour. The success and what the cost of the survey was. [309838] of these arrangements will inform funding decisions for the 2011-12 period and beyond. Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Development (DFID) will publish its October 2009 Life Imprisonment staff survey results on our website in early March. Following publication we will place a copy of the results in the Library. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many people sentenced to a life term have ORC International carried out the survey. Their services been convicted of a homicide offence following their were procured by the Cabinet Office to deliver the first release in the last 10 years. [309852] cross-Civil Service People Survey. The People Survey replaced all existing staff surveys in the civil service Claire Ward: Data taken from the police national with a single questionnaire. computer (PNC) show that 10 people convicted of The final cost of the 2009-10 People Survey for homicide (covering murder, manslaughter and infanticide) DFID is expected to be approximately £50,000. By between 2000 and 2008 had previously received a life procuring a single supplier for staff surveys in 2009-10, sentence for an earlier offence. It is not possible to give the civil service has saved 35 per cent. on the total cost complete data where those already in prison may have of staff surveys in 2008-09. been convicted of a further homicide. Departmental Training These figures have been drawn from the police’s administrative IT system, which, as with any large scale Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for recording system, is subject to possible errors with data International Development how many sessions of media entry and processing. The figures are provisional and training were organised for Ministers in his Department subject to change as more information is recorded by in each of the last three years. [309913] the police. Data before 2000 are not available. Further information on homicides is collected and Mr. Douglas Alexander: Training is provided to Ministers published by the Home Office and can be found at: on a range of issues including handling the media, as www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb0209.pdf part of their induction and continuing development in order to carry out their duties effectively under the National Offender Management Service: Manpower ‘Ministerial Code’. Non-Governmental Organisations: Finance John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice whether NAPO and Unison will be consulted Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for on planned reductions to staffing levels in the National International Development (1) what criteria are used to Offender Management Service headquarters. [309671] determine which organisations take part in (a) Partnership 1013W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1014W

Programme arrangements, (b) Strategic Grant agreements assistance or humanitarian assistance tests of the and (c) Strategic Framework Partnership agreements; International Development Act. In addition all grants [309745] must be spent in accordance with the specific objectives (2) what criteria are used by his Department to and criteria set out in each of the funding arrangements. decide which non-governmental organisations receive funding under Partnership Programme Arrangements; Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for and if he will publish those criteria. [309809] International Development what proportion of non- governmental organisations in receipt of grants from Mr. Michael Foster: The most recent competitive call his Department (a) audit themselves and (b) are for proposals for Partnership Programme Arrangements independently audited in relation to their expenditure (PPAs) was held in 2006. The Department for International of such funding. [309812] Development’s criteria for Partnership Programme arrangement applications are posted on the DFID website Mr. Michael Foster: Grants provided by the Department at: for International Development require evidence about http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Working-with-DFID/Funding- the use of such funds through the receipt of Annual Schemes/Funding-for-not-for-profit-organisations/PPAs/ Audited Accounts, or through a special audited statement. DFID does not have any Strategic Grant Agreements In both circumstances this follows an independent or Strategic Framework Partnership Agreements. examination.

Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what the (a) purposes and International Development what steps he is taking to (b) terms are of each current (i) Strategic Grant Agreement ensure greater accountability of expenditure by third and (ii) Strategic Framework Partnership Agreement party organisations of Partnership Programme entered into by his Department. [309747] Arrangements funding on projects. [309813]

Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Mr. Michael Foster: The Partnership Programme Development (DFID) does not have any current Strategic Arrangements (PPAs) provide funding in support of Grant Agreements or Strategic Framework Partnership mutually agreed high level developmental outcomes. Agreements. The Department for International Development (DFID) holds PPA organisations accountable for achieving agreed Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for outcomes. DFID does not directly monitor the effectiveness International Development what steps he has taken to of a PPA organisation’s in-country partners. improve the mechanisms for (a) accountability and We are currently working with all PPA organisations (b) performance measurement of expenditure from to review and strengthen their performance frameworks grants provided by his Department. [309808] to ensure greater accountability against agreed outcomes.

Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Overseas Aid Development (DFID) requires all grant recipients to provide audited financial statements and also checks on the use of funds by conducting annual monitoring Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for reviews. Performance measurement has been improved International Development pursuant to his contribution through the introduction of a strengthened results of 14 December 2009, Official Report, column 645, on framework at the project level which details objectives Afghanistan and the EU Council, how much Ministry and expected outcomes. of Defence spending on humanitarian aid will contribute to the Government’s 0.7 per cent. overseas development commitment. [309672] Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how many non-governmental organisations in receipt of grants from his Department Mr. Douglas Alexander: The only Ministry of Defence are not required to provide audit information including (MOD) contribution to UK Official Development itemised expenditure in respect of such grants. [309810] Assistance (ODA) is through its joint management of the Conflict Pool. The Conflict Pool is a tri-departmental fund managed with the Foreign and Commonwealth Mr. Michael Foster: All organisations in receipt of Office (FCO) and the Department for International funding from the Department for International Development (DFID). Approximately 80 per cent. of Development are required to provide evidence about spending under the Conflict Pool is projected to be the use of funds through Annual Audited Accounts or ODA eligible. The MOD is expected to manage special audited statements. approximately £60 million of Conflict Pool funds in 2009-10. Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development whether any funding provided by his Department to non-governmental organisations Trades Union Congress may be spent by them on communications and public relations activities. [309811] Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development how much funding his Mr. Michael Foster: Funding provided to non- Department has provided under the Partnership Programme governmental organisations by the Department for Arrangement to the Trades Union Congress in 2009-10; International Development must meet the development and on what terms such grants are made. [309746] 1015W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1016W

Mr. Michael Foster: In 2009-10 the Department for rights issues with the GoU. For example we raised International Development (DFID) provided the Trades concerns over the use of force and restrictions on media Union Congress (TUC) with £1.2 million under the freedoms during the September 2009 riots. Partnership Programme Arrangement (PPA). DFID also provides direct assistance to a number of This support was made available on the basis that it initiatives aimed at strengthening the protection of human would be used solely for development assistance purposes rights. DFID supports the Ugandan Human Rights as defined in the International Development Act (2002). Commission programme of civic education, with a As with all other PPAs, the TUC are required to focus on citizens’ rights. We are supporting the police report annually against mutually agreed outcomes which and civil society groups to improve public order policing are set out in their PPA performance framework. under the Deepening Democracy Programme. DFID also contributes to the Independent Development Fund Mr. Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for that provides grants to human rights organisations in International Development for what reasons his Uganda. Department enters into Partnership Programme arrangements with the Trades Union Congress; and if Uganda: Overseas Aid he will make a statement. [309748] Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Michael Foster: Trade Unions form an important International Development which (a) human and (b) part of civil society globally. The Department for civil rights organisations have received funding from International Development’s (DFID’s) Partnership his Department in supporting their work in Uganda in Programme Arrangement (PPA) with the Trades Union each of the last five years; what allocations have been Congress (TUC) enables support to be provided to made to such organisations for each of the next three trade unions in the developing world that are contributing years; and if he will make a statement. [309706] to poverty reduction as part of an international network. Uganda: Homosexuality Mr. Thomas: The Department for International Development (DFID) supports human and civil rights Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for organisations working in Uganda through both bilateral International Development whether his Department and multilateral programmes. Organisations supported has made representations to the Ugandan government through both these channels for each of the past five on the Anti-Homosexuality Bill before the Ugandan years are presented in the following tables. Parliament. [309707] Organisations supported through bilateral and multilateral Mr. Thomas: The Department for International channels Development (DFID) is extremely concerned by the (a) Human introduction of this Bill and is working closely with the Rights Foreign Office and with European Union (EU) colleagues 2005 Uganda National Health Consumers Association on this issue. The UK Government have made clear our (UNHCO) concerns in representations to Ugandan Ministers, including by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to President 2006 Uganda National Health Consumers Association Museveni and my noble Friend Baroness Kinnock to (UNHCO) Foreign Minister Kutesa, at the recent Commonwealth Family Planning Association of Uganda (FPAU) Heads of Government Meeting. The UK High African Network for the Prevention and Protection Commissioner in Kampala has also lobbied the Prime Against Child Abuse (ANPPCAN) Minister and other Ugandan Ministers on the issue. National Union of Disabled Person in Uganda Sweden, as local EU presidency in Uganda, led an EU (NUDIPU) démarche to the Ugandan Foreign Ministry in December Katakwi Urafiki Foundation 2009. The Head of DFID Uganda has raised the issue Land and Equity Movement (LEMU) with Uganda’s Minister of Finance and senior officials. The Uganda Association of Women Lawyers The Bill is a private members Bill and has not been (FIDA-U) adopted by the Government of Uganda or approved by National Union of Researchers and Research Users Parliament. However, we will take account of the Bill’s (NURRU) progress when taking any decisions on future funding for Uganda. 2007 Uganda National Health Consumers Association Uganda: Human Rights (UNHCO) Family Planning Association of Uganda (FPAU) African Network for the Prevention and Protection Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Against Child Abuse (ANPPCAN) International Development what steps his Department National Union of Disabled Person in Uganda is taking to improve the human rights situation in (NUDIPU) Uganda. [309708] Katakwi Urafiki Foundation Land and Equity Movement (LEMU) Mr. Thomas: The UK has lobbied the Government of Uganda (GoU) on contraventions of human rights. The The Uganda Association of Women Lawyers British high commission and the Department for (FIDA-U) National Union of Researchers and Research Users International Development’s (DFID’s) office in Kampala (NURRU) follow the situation closely and regularly discuss human 1017W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1018W

Organisations supported through bilateral and multilateral Organisations supported through bilateral and multilateral channels channels (a) Human (a) Human Rights Rights

MIFUMI Human Rights Defenders Network Sese Health Efforts for Development (SHED) (MHRDN) Huys Link Community Initiative (HUYSLINC1) Platform for Labour Action (PLA) Makerere Women Dev Association (MAWDA) Save the Children in Uganda (SCFiU African International Christian Ministry (AICM) Coalition for Health Promotion and Social Development (HEPS) Bugiri District NGO Forum (BDNGF) Buddu Social Development Association (BUSODA) 2008 Family Planning Association of Uganda (FPAU) HEPS African Network for the Prevention and Protection Kyenjojo District NGO/CBO Forum Against Child Abuse (ANPPCAN) National Union of Disabled Persons in Uganda Child Aid Uganda (CHAU) (NUDIPU) Pallisa Civil Society Organisations Network Katakwi Urafiki Foundation (PACONET) Land and Equity Movement (LEMU) Uganda Association for Employment and Empowerment of Persons with Disabilities and The Uganda Association of Women Lawyers Elderly (UAEEEPE) (FIDA-U) Reach the Youth Uganda (RYU) National Union of Researchers and Research Users (NURRU) MIFUMI Human Rights Defenders Network 2009 Straight Talk Foundation (MHRDN) National Forum of People Living with HIV/AIDS Platform for Labour Action (PLA) Networks in Uganda (NAFOPHANU) Save the Children in Uganda (SCFiU) Uganda Network on Law, Ethics and HIV/AIDS (UGANET) Coalition for Health Promotion and Social Development (HEPS) Orphans Community Based Organisation (OCBO) Uganda Youth Development Link (UYDEL) 2008 Straight Talk Foundation Making Positive Living Attractive to Youth (Ma- National Forum of People Living with HIV/AIDS PLAY) Networks in Uganda (NAFOPHANU) ACORD Uganda Network on Law, Ethics and HIV/AIDS (UGANET) Orphans Community Based Organisation (OCBO) 2009 Amnesty International Uganda Youth Development Link (UYDEL) 2009 United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF)—child Making Positive Living Attractive to Youth (Ma- rights in Karamoja PLAY) ACORD (b) Civil rights 2008 Amnesty International 2005 Uganda Electoral Commission Uganda Media Women’s Association 2009 Land and Equity Movement (LEMU) Uganda Joint Christian Council The Uganda Association of Women Lawyers Institute for War and Peace Reporting (FIDA-U) National Union of Researchers and Research Users Uganda Journalists Safety Committee (NURRU) MIFUMI Human Rights Defenders Network 2006 Uganda Electoral Commission (MHRDN) Uganda Media Women’s Association Platform for Labour Action (PLA) Uganda Joint Christian Council Save the Children in Uganda (SCFiU) Institute for War and Peace Reporting Coalition for Health Promotion and Social Development (HEPS) Uganda Journalists Safety Committee

2009 Agency for Cooperation and Research in 2008 Institute for Democracy in Africa (IDASA) Development (ACORD) Action for Development (ACFODE) 2009 Uganda Human Rights Commission Wakiso Community Development Agency Inter-religious Council of Uganda (IRCU) (WACODA) Kabarole Research Centre Uganda Private Midwives Association (UPMA) MS Uganda African Network for the Prevention and Protection Against Child Abuse and Neglect (ANPPCAN) Mental Health Uganda (MHU) 2009 Institute for Democracy in Africa (IDASA) 1019W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1020W

The agreed funding allocation to these organisations for the next three years are provided in the following table.

£ Organisation Activity 2010 2011 2012

MIFUMI Human Rights Defenders Rights of women and children experiencing violence 78,000 — — (MHRDN) and abuse Platform for Labour Action (PLA) Right to social security 7,000 — — Save the Children in Uganda (SCFiU) Child rights protection 78,000 — — HEPS Maternal health rights 11,000 — — Katakwi Urafiki Foundation Human rights and peace building 13,000 — — Electoral Commission of Uganda Voter education, voter registration etc. 300,000 300,000 300,000 Uganda Human Rights Commission Civic education, public order training for police 50,000 50,000 — MS Uganda Civic education 30,000 30,000 — Inter-Religious Council of Uganda Civic education 85,000 85,000 — Kabarole Research Centre Civic education 60,000 60,000 — Straight Talk Foundation Sexual and reproductive health and rights 260,000 — — National Forum of People Living Rights of people living with HIV/AIDS 92,000 — — with HIV/AIDS Networks in Uganda (NAFOPHANU) Uganda Network on Law, Ethics and Legal and human rights response to HIV/AIDS 105,000 — — HIV/AIDS (UGANET) Orphans Community Based Rights of people living with HIV/AIDS 33,000 — — Organisation (OCBO) Uganda Youth Development Link Rights of people living with HIV/AIDS 65,000 — — (UYDEL) Making Positive Living Attractive to Rights of people living with HIV/AIDS 33,000 — — Youth (Ma-PL AY) ACORD HIV/AIDS rights in the workplace 67,000 — — Amnesty International Right to education 79,000 79,000 79,000 Healthlink Worldwide Child rights (regional, including Kenya and Tanzania) 170,000 170,000 170,000

Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for £ million International Development what aid his Department has provided to Uganda in each of the last five years; 2013-14 85 and what aid he expects his Department to provide to Uganda in each of the next five years. [309709] Aid provided by DFID to Uganda is conditional on progress in reducing poverty, strengthening financial management and respecting human rights and international Mr. Thomas: The Department for International obligations. Development (DFID) signed a 10-year partnership agreement with the Government of Uganda (GoU) in November 2007. Under this partnership agreement the UK Government pledged £700 million worth of HEALTH development support to the GoU over the period 2007-17. Cardiovascular System: Diseases DFID aid to Uganda in each of the last five years was as follows: Dr. Iddon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many lower limb (a) revascularisation and (b) £ million angioplasty procedures were carried out in each strategic health authority in the NHS in each of the last five 2004-05 61 years. [309972] 2005-06 72 2006-07 78 Ann Keen: We are unable to provide data for 2007-08 65 revascularisation. There are no specific codes for 2008-09 73 ‘revascularisation of lower limb’in the national classification (OPCS-4) and cannot thus be separately identified. Indicative aid allocations to Uganda over the next Tables providing the number of finished consultant five years are as follows: episodes (FCEs) with a primary or secondary procedure of angioplasty of the lower limb, by strategic health £ million authority (SHA) of treatment for the years 2004-05 to 2008-09 have been placed in the Library. 2009-10 75 2010-11 85 In 2006-07 there was a SHA configuration change, 2011-12 85 where 28 SHAs merged into 10. For this reason, data 2012-13 85 for 2006-07 to 2008-09 is based on the new configuration and the data prior to this is based on the old configuration. 1021W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1022W

It should be noted that the number of FCEs does not In December 2008, the Department published its represent the number of patients as a patient may have policy on health and well-being for all its staff. One of more than one episode within a year. the aims of the policy is to improve attendance at work. Reference should be made to the footnotes and clinical A new more proactive occupational health service is codes when interpreting the data. being tendered now which will also have an impact on attendance at work. Departmental Advertising The number of days of sickness absence taken by staff in the core Department in each of the last 12 months Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for are as follows: Health what estimate he has made of his Department’s expenditure on (a) television, (b) radio, (c) print and Total number of sickness (d) online advertising in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. absence days [309932] December 2008 1,694 Phil Hope: The Department’s estimated expenditure January 2009 1,552 on advertising for the 2009-10 financial year is given in February 2009 1,297 the following table. These are provisional figures because March 2009 1,385 advertising media allocations for some campaigns are April 2009 1,290 still subject to change. May 2009 1,361 June 2009 1,355 Channel Estimated expenditure (£) July 2009 1,647 August 2009 1,230 Television (including interactive TV) 26,150,885 September 2009 1,319 Radio 6,529,145 October 2009 1,583 Print 9,367,713 November 2009 1,704 Online 9,427,545 Total estimated cost of absence for period was £2,782,214. The figures do not include recruitment or classified In future this information for the core Department will advertising costs. Advertising spend is defined as covering be published on its website at: only media spend (inclusive of agency commissions but www.dh.gov.uk/en/index.htm excluding production costs, Central Office of Information commission and VAT). All figures exclude advertising The number of days of sick leave taken by staff in the rebates and audit adjustments and therefore may differ Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency from Central Office of Information official turnover (MNRA) in each of the last 12 months are presented as figures. follows. Please note that MHRA sickness figures run one month behind so the year to date figures are as A total budget figure for the 2010-11 financial year follows: cannot be provided at this stage as detailed planning for some campaigns is under way and advertising media Total number of sickness allocations have not yet been finalised. absence days

Departmental Sick Leave November 2008 692 December 2008 796 Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State January 2009 885 for Health how many days sickness absence were taken February 2009 794 by staff in his Department and its agencies in each of March 2009 616 the last 12 months for which figures are available; and April 2009 785 what the cost to his Department was of such absence. May 2009 698 [305555] June 2009 635 July 2009 815 Phil Hope: The Department gives managing sickness August 2009 998 absence the importance it deserves. Our policy ‘Managing September 2009 831 Sickness Absence—promoting attendance at work’ October 2009 831 promotes a positive approach to managing and responding to sickness absence. Total cost of absence in MHRA for the period was Human Resources routinely make contact with line £1,254,772.94. managers and members of staff at agreed absence trigger The number of days of sick leave taken by staff in the points, advising on the policy and support available to NHS Procurement and Supply Agency (NHS PASA) in maximise attendance and support health and well-being each of the last 12 months are as follows: at work. This can include occupational health referrals, return to work interviews, making use of the employee Total number of sickness assistance programme, and consideration of reasonable absence days adjustments to the role or physical environment. December 2008 209.5 Human Resources provide continued support to January 2009 149 managers and members of staff in maintaining acceptable February 2009 117.5 attendance levels and advising on process for formal March 2009 116.5 action where acceptable attendance levels cannot be April 2009 89 sustained. 1023W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1024W

under the terms of a specification that was reviewed Total number of sickness absence days and agreed at regular intervals. The standard specification was supplemented by a number of ad hoc requests. May 2009 82.5 The total cost to the Department of the PSSRU June 2009 79.5 input was £280,000 in 2008-09 and £128,000 in 2009-10. July 2009 119 August 2009 103.5 Hospitals: Road Salting and Gritting September 2009 71.5 October 2009 102 November 2009 46 Mrs. Villiers: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the estimated amount is of (a) road salt and (b) For the period December 2008 to November 2009 the grit supplies held by hospitals. [310555] estimated total cost of sickness absence to NHS PASA was £177,815. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department does not collect data centrally on the estimated amount of road salt and Health Services: Finance grit supplies held by hospitals in England.

Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Liver Diseases: Health Services how many people (a) applied for and (b) received the Help with Health Costs grant in 2008-09; what the average amount received was; what the eligibility criteria Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for for the grant are; and what the main reasons for refusing Health (1) when he expects to announce the appointment of a national clinical director for liver disease; [309650] applications were in that period. [309377] (2) what recent progress has been made on developing Mr. Mike O’Brien: No grant is payable under Help a National Liver Strategy; and if he will make a statement. with Health Costs. [309651] The words “Help with Health Costs” are used as a description of the extensive range of exemptions and Ann Keen: We are about to appoint a new National remissions created to help patients meet the cost of Clinical Director for Liver Disease. Their name will be certain national health service charges. Further details made public shortly. are provided in the leaflet HC11 Help with Health Costs, available at: NHS Litigation Authority www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/ PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_4078082 Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for A copy has been placed in the Library. Health how many inspections were carried out by Det Norske Veritas on behalf of the NHS Litigation Authority Heart Diseases: Health Services in each of the last three years; and how much the Authority paid to Det Norske Veritas in each such year. Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for [310173] Health pursuant to the answer of 9 December 2009, Official Report, column 479W, on heart diseases: health Ann Keen: Det Norske Veritas (DNV) has been carrying services, what the timetable is for specialised out assessments for the NHS Litigation Authority since commissioning groups to designate services for adults 1 April 2007. In 2007-08, they carried out 220 assessments, with congenital heart disease. [310538] and in 2008-09 they carried out 170 assessments. DNV are expected to carry out 247 assessments in 2009-10. Ann Keen: There is no national timetable for Specialised We are unable to provide information relating to Commissioning Groups (SCGs) to designate services payments made to DNV because this is deemed for adults with congenital heart disease. The service commercially sensitive. specification standards for these services are expected to be officially signed off by SCGs at a meeting on Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for 28 January 2010. It is for each SCG then to decide on a Health how much each NHS trust paid the NHS Litigation timetable for the work on designation of services for Authority in each of the last three years. [310175] adults with congenital heart disease according to local priorities. Ann Keen: The information requested is contained in Home Care Services the document “NHS Contribution Data—2006-09”. A copy has been placed in the Library. Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State The data are also available from the Factsheets on the for Health what research projects were commissioned NHS Litigation Authority’s website: by his Department from the Personal Social Services www.nhsla.com Research Unit for the purposes of informing the Green Paper on Shaping the Future of Care Together; and how much that unit was paid for each such project. NHS: Dental Services [310100] Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Phil Hope: The Personal Social Services Research what steps have been taken to inform the public of Unit (PSSRU) undertook a rolling programme of work dental practices which are taking on new NHS patients. for the Department in connection with the Green Paper [310412] 1025W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1026W

Ann Keen: Information on dental practices taking on 2. The source of the 1998-99 figure is the NHS Earnings Survey new patients for national health service treatment is 1998-99, available at: available nationally from NHS Direct and NHS Choices. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Pressreleases/ Anyone having difficulty in finding an NHS dentist DH_4005045 should contact their primary care trust (PCT). All PCTs 3. The source of the 2008-09 figure is the NHS Information provide helplines. New services are opening all the time Centre NHS Staff Earnings April-June 2009, available at: as PCTs work towards providing access for all who www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/workforce/nhs- want it by, at the latest, March 2011. Where appropriate, staff-earnings/nhs-staff-earnings-april-to-june-2009 PCTs advertise these services locally as they open. 4. Figures have been rounded to the nearest £100. NHS: North West Nutrition: Health Services

Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State Health pursuant to the answer of 9 December 2009, for Health (1) how many people were recorded as Official Report, columns 480-90W, how many full-time having (a) an admission and (b) a discharge episode equivalent (a) managers and (b) senior managers there with a diagnosis of (i) malnutrition, (ii) nutritional were in each salary band in each trust in the North West anaemias and (iii) other nutritional deficiencies in each in each of the last five years. [310062] NHS trust in each month since September 2008; [309122] Ann Keen: The information requested is not collected (2) how many people were recorded as having (a) an centrally. admission and (b) a discharge episode with a diagnosis of (i) malnutrition, (ii) nutritional anaemias and (iii) NHS: Standards other nutritional deficiencies in each NHS trust in each year between 1997-98 and 2008-09. [309123] Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much each primary care trust is expected Gillian Merron: The information requested has been to spend consulting on the NHS Constitution; and if placed in the Library. he will make a statement. [310800] Obesity: Surgery Ann Keen: The Department has not set any expected levels of spending. Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health (1) what recent assessment has been made of Nurses: Manpower the level of availability of bariatric surgery on the NHS (a) in each strategic health authority area, (b) in each Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health primary care trust area and (c) nationwide; [310125] how many nurses were employed in the NHS in (a) (2) what criteria are used by each primary care trust 1997 and (b) 2009. [310464] in deciding whether to provide bariatric surgery for obese patients. [310126] Ann Keen: The total number of nurses employed in the national health service in 1997 and 2008 are set out Gillian Merron: The Department has not undertaken as follows an assessment on the availability of bariatric surgery in the national health service. It is up to primary care Full-time equivalent Headcount (FTE) trusts as local commissioners and providers of services to determine the most appropriate methods to deliver 1997 300,467 246,011 health care to their populations, based on clinical need 2008 386,112 315,410 and effectiveness, and following medical advice. The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence The number of nurses employed in the NHS in 2009 (NICE) provides “Guidance on the prevention, will be released in March 2010 upon publication of the identification, assessment and management of overweight NHS Workforce Census. and obesity in adults and children”, available at The total number of all qualified nurses (including www.nice.org.uk/CG43. This guidance contains criteria practice nurses), midwives and health visitors has increased for assessing whether to provide bariatric surgery for by 81,000 (25 per cent.) since 1997. people who are obese. Nurses: Pay Preventive Medicine

Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the average salary was for a nurse in (a) 1997 and what steps are being taken to encourage people to take (b) 2009. [310465] up preventative health services. [310414]

Ann Keen: The average salary of a nurse was £19,600 Gillian Merron: ‘High Quality for All: NHS Next in 1998-99 and £30,900 in 2009. No comparable figures Stage Review Final Report’ (2008) committed primary are available prior to 1998-99 as this was the first year in care trusts to work in partnership with local authorities which the NHS Staff earnings survey was undertaken. to commission comprehensive well-being and prevention Notes: services particularly covering obesity, alcohol harm, 1. In the context of this answer the term “Nurse” has been drug addiction, smoking, sexual health and mental interpreted as a qualified nurse health. A copy has already been placed in the Library. 1027W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1028W

The Department has also sponsored guidance to improve Letter from Stephen Geraghty: commissioning of preventative services which was published In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the by the Royal Society of Public Health in December Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary 2009, and this is part of a programme of work to of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance improve commissioning of health and well-being services. Commissioner. Community pharmacies already play a key role providing You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how local services such as stopping smoking, weight management many referrals were made to the Child Maintenance Options and supporting drug misusers. A range of other initiatives website from Jobcentre Plus in each month since July 2008; how and approaches are also being introduced to encourage many telephone contacts were made to the Child Maintenance Options helpline in each such month; and how many unique visits the take up of preventative services and to offer support, the Child Maintenance Options website received. [300691] such as the Lets Get Moving initiative which screens for physical inactivity. Other screening programmes include Jobcentre Plus in England, Wales and Scotland provide a leaflet for all new clients with a child maintenance interest to those for breast, cervical and bowel cancer. introduce the Child Maintenance Options service and then asks Strokes: Health Services them if they wish to be referred. Those who agree have their contact details passed on to Child Maintenance Options, which subsequently contacts them by phone. Although the Child Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Maintenance Options website address is included in the leaflet, what assessment has been made of the effectiveness of Jobcentre Plus customers are not directly referred to the Child the 2007 National Stroke Strategy in improving patient Maintenance Options website. outcomes. [310415] The number of telephone contacts made to the Child Maintenance Options service and the number of unique visits to the Child Ann Keen: Improving stroke care is a national priority Maintenance Options website are provided in the attached table. for the national health service and is a tier one vital sign The table also includes information on the successful outbound in the NHS Operating Framework. Data collected on contacts. primary care trusts performance against the vital sign I hope you find this answer helpful. show improvements in the delivery of patient care for Number of telephone contacts made to the Child Maintenance Options stroke patients. Now almost 60 per cent. of people service July 2008 to September 2009 spend 90 per cent. of their time in a stroke unit; a Child Maintenance Number of marked improvement since publication of the National Options calls successful contacts Stroke Strategy. The most recent Royal College of received1,2 on outbound calls4 Physicians’ “National Sentinel Stroke Audit” conducted July3 3,800 9,900 in 2008 shows a consistent improvement in performance August 3,800 6,200 across nine key indicators; for example there are increasing September 4,600 6,200 numbers of hospitals with acute stroke beds with 96 per cent. of hospitals in England now offering specialist October 5,400 4,800 acute stroke care. November 5,800 10,000 Since the strategy was published in December 2007, December 3,900 9,100 28 stroke networks have been set up across England to January 6,400 13,300 work with commissioners and providers to improve February 6,300 15,000 services, and thereby, patient outcomes. Evaluation of March 6,900 15,000 the first part of the ACT F.A.S.T campaign has shown April 6,300 12,800 this to be one of the most effective public awareness May 7,800 14,000 campaigns having reached 82 per cent. of the population. June 7,500 16,200 The campaign has led to an increase of 55 per cent. in July 11,300 15,600 stroke-related 999 calls. August 8,400 13,000 We intend to commission an independent evaluation September 13,300 14,200 of the implementation of the National Stroke Strategy later this year. Number of unique visits to the Child Maintenance Options website July 2008 to September 2009 Unique visits to the Child WORK AND PENSIONS Maintenance Options website4 Children: Maintenance July 6,000 August 13,700 Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work September 22,300 and Pensions how many referrals were made to the October 28,500 Child Maintenance Options website from Jobcentre November 32,200 Plus in each month since July 2008; how many telephone December 20,400 contacts were made to the Child Maintenance Options January 39,600 helpline in each such month; and how many unique February 33,400 visits the Child Maintenance Options website received. March 35,500 [300691] April 30,800 : The Child Maintenance and May 31,100 Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child June 31,100 maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance July 61,100 Commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the August 50,800 information requested and I have seen the response. September 72,300 1029W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1030W

1 Figures for the calls received are rounded to the nearest 100. One of this Department’s key investment strategies 2 Calls received exclude those outside working hours. during the 2004 Spending Review period was to reduce 3 Figures for July include those from the prototype phase of the service as well as the live running from 14 July onwards. asset ownership and to contract for key services. The 4 Represents the number of unduplicated (counted only once) visitors successful implementation of that strategy resulted in a to the Option website over the course of a specified time period. greatly reduced asset base. Departmental Assets The DWP does not own any land or property. Asset transfer has already been completed through a PFI Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Work contract known as PRIME, returning exchequer receipts and Pensions what assets of her Department are of £250m in 1998 and £100 million in 2003 when the planned to be sold in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; Department outsourced its estate. This arrangement what the (i) description and (ii) book value is of each covers the majority of property occupied by the Child such asset; what the expected revenue is from each such Maintenance and Enforcement Commission (a Crown sale; and by what date each asset is expected to have non-departmental public body). There is currently no been sold. [309924] intention to sell any of the Commission’s assets during the years in question. : The Government have stated their intention to realise £16 billion in asset disposals over the period Planned asset sales for the Health and Safety Executive 2011-14 and will publish further details of opportunities (a Crown non-departmental public body) are outlined to commercialise business assets in the coming weeks. in the following table:

£000 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12 2012-13 2013-14 NBV Sales NBV Sales NBV Sales NBV Sales NBV Sales

Vehicles1 235 262 362 362 347 347 277 277 362 362 Land2 5110100000 00 1 Vehicle sales are mainly related to the Health and Safety Executive’s Private User Scheme which provides vehicles on a three year contract for staff travelling in excess of 5,000 business miles per annum on a shared cost basis and will occur over the course of the year as individual vehicles are replaced. 2 The land transactions relate to some very minor works at the Health and Safety Laboratory in Buxton mainly around improving access to the site. The timing of these transactions depends on a number of factors but should take place by March 2010 and April 2010 respectively.

The DWP disposed of the majority of its vehicle fleet Departmental Sick Leave in August 2007. The Department’s IS/IT and telephony requirements were outsourced to EDS (now part of Mr. Philip Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State Hewlett Packard) and BT in 2005. for Work and Pensions how many days sickness Leasehold improvements to Jobcentre Plus sites are absence were taken by staff in her Department and its classed as assets but cannot be disposed of independently agencies in each of the last 12 months; and what the so the impact on value is negligible, as the assets themselves cost to her Department was of such absence. [305552] (the buildings) are not owned by the Department. Jim Knight: Information about sick leave taken by Departmental Domestic Visits staff in the Department for Work and Pensions is not reported in precisely the format requested. In accordance Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work with cross-government arrangements, the Department and Pensions how many planned visits by Ministers in reports sick leave using annual average working days her Department within the UK were cancelled within lost (AWDL) per full-time employee. This is calculated 72 hours of the visit taking place in the last 12 months; and reported monthly on a rolling year basis. and what the planned venue or venues were for each such visit. [309871] AWDL Agencies Jim Knight: The information that you have requested Pension, Other, could be provided only at disproportionate costs. Disability including Jobcentre and Carers central DWP Plus Service directorates overall Departmental Freedom of Information November 9.7 9.5 7.1 9.3 2008 Sarah Teather: To ask the Secretary of State for Work December 9.7 9.4 7.1 9.3 and Pensions how many requests under the Freedom of 2008 Information Act 2000 her Department received in 2008; January 2009 9.5 9.3 7.0 9.1 and how many of these received a substantive response February 2009 9.4 9.2 6.9 9.0 within 20 days. [305486] March 2009 9.3 9.1 6.7 3.9 April 2009 9.1 9.0 6.7 8.7 Jim Knight: In 2008, this Department received 1,469 May 2009 9.0 9.0 6.7 8.7 requests of which 63 per cent. were dealt with within the June 2009 8.8 8.8 6.6 8.5 20 working day deadline. However, in the first three July 2009 8.8 8.8 6.6 8.5 quarters of this year an average of 76 per cent. have August 20009 8.7 8.8 6.8 8.5 been met within 20 working days. 1031W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1032W

vital that the public are aware of and trust Directgov as AWDL the Government’s official website. The aim of the campaign Agencies is to increase awareness so that Directgov is the first site Pension, Other, Disability including people think of for Government information, and one Jobcentre and Carers central DWP which they both trust and recommend to others. Plus Service directorates overall Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work September 8.6 8.7 6.8 8.4 2009 and Pensions how much her Department spent on the October 2009 8.6 8.7 6.8 8.4 production of the directgov advertisement Go DirectGov; and how much it expects to spend on purchasing television The total amount of salary paid during periods of airtime for the advertisement. [310281] sickness leave between 1 November 2008 and 31 October 2009 totalled £62 million. For comparative purposes Jim Knight: The cost of production and airtime the cost of salary paid for sickness absence between purchased to date combined is £2.05 million. Unfortunately November 2008 and October 2009 was 2 per cent. of we cannot detail the specific costs of airtime and the the total pay bill for 2008-09, the latest available figure. production of the advertisement as this would be likely The Department has cut sickness absence by nearly a to prejudice the commercial interests of Directgov by day per full-time employee, on average, in the last year weakening our bargaining position with media suppliers and by nearly two days in the last two years. Further and also weakening our position in a competitive reducing sickness absence and its associated cost remains environment by revealing market-sensitive information a major departmental priority. or information of potential usefulness to competitors. Directgov has the potential to enable Government to Departmental Taxis make substantial savings in shifting from traditional to digital channels. For those savings to be realised, it is Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for vital that the public are aware of and trust Directgov as Work and Pensions how many miles (a) Ministers and the Government’s official website. The aim of the campaign (b) officials in her Department and its predecessors is to increase awareness so that Directgov is the first site have travelled by taxi in the course of their official people think of for government information, and one duties in each year since 1997; and at what cost to the which they both trust and recommend to others. public purse in each such year. [302699]

Jim Knight: Information on mileage travelled by taxi Employment Schemes is not available. Information on taxi travel expenditure is only available from 2005-06. Details of the separate Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work payments made in respect of Ministers and officials and Pensions how many and what proportion of people could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Such have found work through (a) the day one offer, (b) the information as is available is in the following table. six month offer, (c) support for unemployed professionals and executives and (d) the flexible New Deal since that Period Expenditure (£ million) scheme was introduced. [309338] 2005-06 1.89 2006-07 2.45 Jim Knight: Government have taken decisive action 2007-08 2.02 during the global recession to ensure that every individual 2008-09 2.29 has the help and support they need to get into work. 2008-09 1.19 Over £5 billion has been made available to put in place a substantial package of support to help job seekers back Expenditure by the Department on taxis needs to be to work, with a particular focus on support for young seen in the context of a Department employing well people. over 100,000 people. An estimated 40 per cent. of the Our measures are working. Unemployment is much expenditure on taxis shown here is incurred to enable lower than in previous recessions, inactivity is below disabled members of staff to travel to and from work. what it was in 1997 and there are 400,000 fewer people This expenditure represents payment by the Department unemployed today than experts were predicting at Budget of costs which, in the case of other employers, could be 2009. claimed for under the “Access to Work” programme which Government Departments voluntarily forego. The number and proportion of people who have found work through the day one offer, support for Electronic Government: Publicity newly unemployed professionals and executives, the volunteering and work focused training elements of the Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Six Month Offer and the Flexible New Deal is not yet and Pensions what the total cost to her Department was available. of the directgov advertising campaign, Go DirectGov. On 14 October 2009, we released the first set of [310280] official statistics on the number of people taking up elements of the Six Month Offer. These early data Jim Knight: The cost of production and airtime covered the period from April 2009 to July 2009 and purchased to date combined is £2.05 million. showed that 5,990 people had entered employment using Directgov has the potential to enable government to the Recruitment Subsidy and 1,460 people had become make substantial savings in shifting from traditional to self-employed and claimed the Self-Employment Credit. digital channels. For those savings to be realised, it is Furthermore, provisional data for August 2009 showed 1033W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1034W that a further 1,500 people had used the Recruitment Scotland special payments Subsidy and 920 people had taken up the Self Employment 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Credit. Number of 361 386 538 The next quarterly statistical release for the Six Month decisions Offer will be published in January 2010. We also expect Amount paid 100,300 59,100 174,900 to publish the first official statistics on the Flexible New (£) Deal in spring 2010. I am not in a position to provide a response to Questions (c) & (d). Details held on our database reflect the referring Benefit Employment: Lone Parents Delivery Centres and, in accordance with centralised processing, these offices cover large geographic areas beyond those specified Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Work in the question. and Pensions how many and what proportion of the lone parents who were moved from income support on Jobseeker’s Allowance to jobseeker’s allowance as a result of changes to benefit rules in December 2008 are in employment; and Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for Work if she will make a statement. [310510] and Pensions for how long a single person claiming jobseeker’s allowance could work at the national Helen Goodman: The information requested is not minimum wage adult rate before that person’s earnings available. attracted a 100 per cent. withdrawal of jobseeker’s allowance in each year of the national minimum wage’s Housing Benefit: Teenage Mothers existence. [302541]

Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Knight: The national minimum wage was introduced Work and Pensions how many mothers under the age of in April 1999 and is uprated each October. 18 years old are in receipt of housing benefit. [310789] For a single customer with no children and no disabilities there is a £5 disregard each week for part-time earnings Helen Goodman: The information is not available. in jobseeker’s allowance. Earnings above the disregard Jobcentre Plus: Compensation lead to a pound for pound (100 per cent.) reduction in jobseeker’s allowance. Danny Alexander: To ask the Secretary of State for People moving into work of more than 16 hours a Work and Pensions how many compensation payments week lose entitlement to JSA. However, the effect of the Jobcentre Plus have made through their Special national minimum wage and, where paid, tax credits Payment Scheme in (a) the UK, (b) Scotland, (c) the mean that the overwhelming majority are better off in Highlands and (d) Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and work than on benefit. Strathspey in each of the last three years; and how The available information for a single customer with much was paid out in each area in each of those years. no children and no disabilities is given in the following [307149] table.

Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a Adult rate of national Minutes worked per matter for the chief executive, Darra Singh. I have asked minimum wage (£ per week before 100 per him to provide the hon. Member with the information hour) cent. withdrawal rate requested. 1 April 1999 3.60 83 Letter from Darra Singh; 1 October 2000 3.70 81 The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question 1 October 2001 4.10 73 asking how many compensation payments Jobcentre Plus has 1 October 2002 4.20 71 made through their Special Payment Scheme in (a) the UK, (b) 1 October 2003 4.50 67 Scotland, (c) the Highlands and (d) Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch 1 October 2004 4.85 62 and Strathspey in each of the last three years; and how much was 1 October 2005 5.05 59 paid out in each area in each of those years. This is something which falls within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief 1 October 2006 5.35 56 Executive of Jobcentre Plus. 1 October 2007 5.52 54 The Jobcentre Plus Special Payments Scheme is part of a wider 1 October 2008 5.73 52 scheme operated by the Department for Work and Pensions. 1 October 2009 5.80 52 Details are contained in the Financial Redress for Maladministration Guide, a copy of which can be found in the House of Commons Library. Jobseeker’s Allowance: Leeds (a) The number of compensation payments made across the UK and how much was paid out. John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what the average time taken to process a UK special payments claim for (a) jobseeker’s allowance and (b) income 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 support was in Leeds in each of the last 10 years. Number of 5,140 4,718 7,844 [306930] decisions Amount paid 1,778,600 1,958,100 2,858,300 Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a (£) matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra (b) The number of compensation payments made across Scotland Singh. I have asked him to provide my right hon. Friend and how much was paid out. with the information requested. 1035W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1036W

New Deal Schemes: Young People steps she plans to take to ensure that disabled people have access to expert independent advice and assistance Dr. Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and on all Government benefits and support. [307681] Pensions what proportion of participants in the New Deal for Young People have left the benefits system Jim Knight: My Department do not fund independent without securing a job or receiving education or advice services to offer advice to our customers. The training in each of the last five years. [303031] Government, through the Department for Business Innovation and Skills, support the Citizens Advice service Jim Knight: The information requested is not available in England, Scotland and Wales. in this exact format, as the reason for an individual Jobcentre Plus and PDCS have dedicated staff who leaving benefit is not always known. However the following deal with customers on all benefits and support. In table sets out the destinations, by percentage, of people particular disabled customers have the support of Disability who have left the new deal for young people, other than Employment Advisers in Jobcentres. Additionally help to benefits, in the last five years: is available via the internet from Directgov.

Percentage Other destination (including Social Security Benefits: Drugs Misuse education or training) or destination Leavers to work unknown Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2005 52.18 47.82 and Pensions what estimate she has made of the 2006 49.85 50.15 number of people addicted to illegal drugs who are in 2007 50.37 49.63 receipt of benefits from her Department. [309853] 2008 47.86 52.14 2009 37.58 62.42 Helen Goodman: Information on the number of people Notes: addicted to illegal drugs and who are in receipt of 1. Immediate destination is measured within two weeks of leaving benefits is not available. new deal, using information from the Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. 2. The year of leaving is the calendar year of leaving new deal. 3. Latest data for 2009 are to May. Unemployment Source: Department for Work and Pensions, Information Directorate Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Social Security Benefits and Pensions how many people living in (a) Herefordshire and (b) the UK receiving services from Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Jobcentre Plus were aged (i) under 21, (ii) 22 to 25, (iii) and Pensions if she will ensure that applications for 26 to 30, (iv) 31 to 35, (v) 36 to 40, (vi) 41 to 45, (vii) 46 health care costs grants sent mistakenly to Jobcentre to 50, (viii) 51 to 55, (ix) 56 to 60 and (x) over 60 years Plus offices are forwarded immediately to the correct old in each month since January 2005; and if she will office for processing; and if she will make a statement. make a statement. [307153] [309525] Jim Knight: The information requested is not available Jim Knight: The administration of Jobcentre Plus is a as figures are not kept on the number of people who matter for the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus, Darra access Jobcentre Plus through the various methods Singh. I have asked him to provide the hon. Member available, such as online, by telephone or at the Jobcentre. with the information requested. Letter from Darra Singh: The Secretary of State has asked me to reply to your question Unemployment: Young People asking if she will ensure that applications for health care costs sent mistakenly to Jobcentre Plus Offices are forwarded immediately to the correct office for processing. This is something that falls Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Work within the responsibilities delegated to me as Chief Executive of and Pensions how many people under 25 years old were Jobcentre Plus. not in employment, education or training in (a) 1997, Claims for health care costs are the responsibility of the (b) 2007 and (c) during 2008-09 in (i) Norwich North Department of Health. Claims are made on a form HC1 and constituency and (ii) each region. [301698] include a prepaid envelope for its return. If a claim form is mistakenly sent to Jobcentre Plus it is automatically forwarded on Jim Knight: The information is not available in the to the Department of Health for action. If a customer presents a precise format requested. The Labour Force Survey completed HC1 personally at a Jobcentre Plus office, they are advised where the form needs to be sent and if required will be does not provide consistent information on participation given a duplicate prepaid envelope. in part time education and training prior to the year 2000. Information on participation in full time education Social Security Benefits: Advisory Services is available on a consistent basis from 1992 onwards. The following table provides the number and proportion Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of 16 to 24-year-olds who are not in employment or full and Pensions how much funding her Department has time education. This definition is consistent with table made available for providers on independent advice 14 of the Office of National Statistics (ONS) Labour services on benefits in each year since 2004; and what Market Statistical Bulletin. 1037W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1038W

16 to 24-year-olds not in employment or full time education1 1997 2007 2008 2009 Number Proportion Number Proportion Number Proportion Number Proportion (thousand) (percentage) (thousand) (percentage) (thousand) (percentage) (thousand) (percentage)

North East 60 21.6 63 19.3 78 23.8 85 25.8 North West 149 20.7 177 20.7 185 21.4 209 24.3 Yorkshire 110 20.4 126 18.7 140 20.6 145 21.8 and Humberside East 70 15.9 95 17.7 97 17.8 106 19.8 Midlands West 117 20.7 146 22.5 149 22.8 154 23.5 Midlands East of 80 15.1 108 17.7 104 16.8 108 17.3 England London 174 20.7 180 20.0 183 20.0 199 20.4 South East 113 14.0 153 16.7 155 16.7 179 19.2 South West 70 14.5 81 14.0 91 15.6 99 17.3 Wales 60 19.8 77 21.2 71 19.4 80 21.9 Scotland 103 18.3 106 17.5 97 15.9 123 20.0 Northern 47 22.2 36 15.6 43 18.5 50 21.5 Ireland UK 1,155 18.4 1,348 18.6 1,392 19.0 1,536 20.9 1 Latest available data are for July-September 2009, data are not seasonally adjusted so the table includes data for July-September in each year. Source: Labour Force Survey (individual datasets), National Statistics.

Data at parliamentary constituency area level is only (4) for how many capital building projects Arts available from the Annual Population Survey from 2004 Council England has provided funding in the last onwards. The sample sizes for Norwich North constituency 12 months; [310454] are not sufficient to provide reliable estimates. (5) what role Arts Council England has in respect of the Government Art Collection; and if he will make a statement. [310456] CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Amusement Arcades: Coastal Areas Margaret Hodge: The issues raised are the responsibility of Arts Council England. The information requested is Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for not held centrally by the Department. Culture, Media and Sport what assessment has been Accordingly, I have asked the chief executive of Arts made of the regulatory burden on seaside amusement Council England to write direct to my hon. Friend. arcades; and what steps are being taken to reduce that Copies of the reply will be placed in the Libraries of burden. [310135] both Houses.

Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department has not made a specific Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, assessment of the regulatory burden on seaside amusement Media and Sport to whom the administration of Arts arcades. However, we have assessed the administrative Council England is accountable for the operational burden imposed by the Gambling Act 2005 on the exercise of the Council’s functions; and if he will make gambling industry as a whole to be £17.4 million per a statement. [310449] annum: £56.6 million less than the administrative costs imposed by the previous regime. The Government remain Margaret Hodge: The Chief Executive of Arts Council committed to reducing unnecessary regulatory burdens England is ultimately responsible for the operational and will continue to work with the industry, including exercise of the Arts Council’s functions. As the accounting those representing the seaside arcade sector, to identify officer, he is responsible for safeguarding the public simplification measures. funds for which he has charge, for ensuring propriety Arts Council England and regularity in the handling of public funds and for the day-to-day operations and management of Arts Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Council England. Culture, Media and Sport (1) how much was spent by As principal accounting officer, the permanent secretary each (a) senior manager and (b) board member of must be satisfied that the framework of internal controls Arts Council England in providing hospitality in each applied by the Arts Council conforms to the requirements of the last three years; [310422] of regularity, propriety and good financial management. (2) whether Arts Council England has purchased any flat screen televisions in each of the last five years; Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, [310423] Media and Sport what the cost to the public purse has (3) whether Arts Council England has investigated been of each restructuring of Arts Council England in any thefts of its property in each of the last three years; each year since 1994; and if he will make a statement. [310442] [301896] 1039W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1040W

Margaret Hodge [holding answer 26 November 2009]: Mr. Sutcliffe: Ongoing assessment of various aspects Since 1994, Arts Council England restructuring has of the Gambling Act 2005 has been undertaken since its resulted in a total saving of £50,464,000 with further introduction and through its continuing implementation. savings of £6,500,000 per annum from 2010-11 resulting This has included an administrative burdens measurement from the current organisational review. exercise, conducted by my Department in 2008 and The table shows a breakdown of the cost of each verified by an industry expert panel, which concluded restructure. These figures include the provisions made that the administrative costs imposed by the Gambling for the costs of staff redundancies and other direct Act 2005 were £56.6 million per annum less than those costs associated with those proposals. imposed by the old regime.

Period of Total cost Gambling Commission restructuring (£) Arts Council of Great Britain to 1993-95 318,000 Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Arts Council of England Culture, Media and Sport what steps have been taken to Restructuring of ACoEto4 1998-99 1,435,000 reduce the size and cost of the Gambling Commission Directorates since the introduction of the Gambling Act 2005. Merging of 10 Regional Arts 2001-05 8,376,000 [310132] Boards to form Arts Council England Restructuring National Office 2005-06 1,859,000 Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department’s current funding Shared services review 2007-08 1,143,000 agreement with Gambling Commission sets a target of Organisation Review 2008-10 4,833,000 achieving 3 per cent. value for money efficiency savings, year on year, over the period 2008-09 to 2010-11. In 2007-08 the Commission’s total expenditure was £ 16.699 Arts Council England: Car Allowances million. This fell to £ 15.291 million in 2008-09. The Commission had a maximum of 300 employees that Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, figure has reduced to 221. While it is right that the Media and Sport if he will review the (a) appropriateness Commission continues to drive efficiencies, I am sure of the conditions for and (b) effectiveness of the operation that the hon. Member would agree that the Commission of the car allowance scheme for Arts Council England must have adequate resources to discharge its responsibilities staff. [310441] effectively.

Margaret Hodge: The operation of the car allowance Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for scheme is a matter for Arts Council England. Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he has had on the effectiveness of the Gambling Commission. Arts Council England: Finance [310133]

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Mr. Sutcliffe: I have regular discussions with a wide Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 30 November range of stakeholders and partners including local 2009, Official Report, column 374W, on Arts Council government, trade associations, individual businesses England: reorganisation, what the breakdown is of the and those concerned with problem gambling, as well as expected efficiency savings of £6.5 million annually the Gambling Commission itself, about all aspects of from 2010-11. [307583] gambling regulation, including the role of the Gambling Commission. Margaret Hodge: Arts Council England has supplied the following information, setting out the anticipated Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for annual efficiency savings of £6.5 million. Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he has had with the Chief Executive and Chairman of the £ Gambling Commission on the effectiveness and costs million of the commission; and if he will make a statement. Central grants for the Arts processing centre 1.5 [310134] Changes to structure of regional offices 0.3 Smaller head office 1.4 Mr. Sutcliffe: My most recent meeting with the chair Co-location of head office and London regional office 0.2 and chief executive of the Gambling Commission was Smaller executive board 0.5 held on 18 November 2009 where we discussed a range Streamlined Advocacy and Communications team 0.7 of issues relating to gambling regulation, including Non-pay costs: including property savings through mobile 1.9 Gambling Commission’s costs and priorities. and home working, hot desking, video and teleconferencing Total saving 6.5 Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (1) what simplification Gambling Act 2005 measures have been introduced by the Gambling Commission since the Hampton Review; [310136] Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what steps have been taken by the Gambling Culture, Media and Sport what assessment his Department Commission in response to the concerns raised by the has made of the effects of the Gambling Act 2005 on Hampton Review on the commission’s operations; and the gambling industry. [310131] if he will make a statement. [310137] 1041W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1042W

Mr. Sutcliffe: The Hampton Implementation Review many communities will get behind 2012 projects to of the Gambling Commission in 2009 suggested that, if build behind the Cultural Olympiad as we the Commission’s plans were implemented, it would be approach the Games. in a strong position to demonstrate the Hampton principles throughout its work. Regional Design Panels The Commission’s response to the review is available on their website. The implementation of those plans is a Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, key programme in the Commission’s current business Media and Sport what funding his Department and its plan and they are making good progress on these measures. agencies have allocated to regional design panels since I will ask the chief executive of the Gambling Commission their inception. [308695] to write to you with further details of how it is responding to specific points raised in the Hampton Review. Copies Margaret Hodge: The Department for Culture, Media of this letter will be placed in the Libraries of both and Sport, and its agency do not directly allocate funding Houses. to regional design panels. The Commission has undertaken a number of Royal Parks: Parking simplification measures and these, together with future plans, are set out in a Gambling Commission annex to Susan Kramer: To ask the Secretary of State for my Department’s 2009 Simplification Plan which can Culture, Media and Sport on what date he plans to be found on the DCMS website here: make a statutory instrument introducing car parking http://www.culture.gov.uk/reference_library/publications/ charges in Royal Parks where charging is not currently 6520.aspx in force; if he will hold a meeting with representatives of Royal Park users in Richmond Park before making Gambling Commission: Crime such an instrument; and what estimate he has made of the sums likely to be raised from car parking charges in each Royal Park in the first 12 months after Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for introduction of charging. [309639] Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions he has had with the Gambling Commission on (a) Margaret Hodge [holding answer 11 January 2010]: I quantifying the level and (b) assessing trends in illegal am considering a number of changes to park regulations, gambling in the UK. [310150] including introducing parking charges in Bushy and Richmond Parks. I intend to make a decision soon after Mr. Sutcliffe: I have not had recent discussions with considering all the evidence. the Gambling Commission about the overall level and There has been extensive consultation about the proposals trends in illegal gambling in the UK. There are a and representatives of Royal Parks’ users have met number of activities that could be classed as illegal senior officials from the Agency to discuss these issues. gambling and I have discussed some of the priority The hon. Member has also raised issues with me in areas such as underage betting and sports betting integrity person. with the Commission. The most recent estimate is that parking charges in Richmond Park could deliver an income of around Olympic Games 2012: Culture £345,000 net a year. Parking in Bushy could deliver £86,000 net, although this is expected to rise to over Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for £100,000 when a car park, that is currently being located, Culture, Media and Sport how much has been (a) is opened. allocated and (b) spent in relation to the Cultural Olympiad in each parliamentary constituency. [310492] Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 14 December Margaret Hodge: Pursuant to my answer of 5 January, 2009, Official Report, column 672W, on Royal Parks: Official Report, column 44W, many of the Cultural parking, what plans there are to introduce car parking Olympiad initiatives, such as the London 2012 Open charges in Royal Parks under such regulations. [309738] Weekends and the projects within the Inspire Mark Programme, are designed, delivered and financed by Margaret Hodge [holding answer 11 January 2010]: local organisations and such information is not held Parking charges are already in place in most Royal centrally. Parks. I am considering a number of changes to the park regulations, including introducing parking charges However, the Cultural Olympiad is already providing in Bushy and Richmond parks. A consultation exercise opportunities for people across the country to celebrate has been undertaken. I am considering the results of their cultural life in the run up to the 2012 Olympic and this and other evidence and I expect to make a decision Paralympic Games. shortly. Three Major National Projects of the Cultural Olympiad—Artists Taking the Lead; Stories of the Swimming: Concessions World; and Unlimited—are now launched. There are over 144 cultural Inspire Mark projects (sourcing funds Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, estimated at £19.8 million so far) taking place across the Media and Sport how many free swimming sessions UK. During the two London 2012 Open Weekend have been provided per eligible resident by each local celebrations in 2008 and 2009, there were over 1,400 authority participating in the scheme in the latest period events across all the regions of the UK. We hope that for which figures are available. [310468] 1043W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1044W

Mr. Sutcliffe: Figures for the number of free swims As part of that process, my officials attend regular per 1,000 eligible residents within each local authority meetings of the cross-Whitehall Fees Committee, chaired participating in the free swimming programme will by the Home Office, which last met in December. The be published as part, of the next release of data on Minister for Identity at the Home Office and I also met 5 February 2010. in December to discuss the These figures will cover the period April 2009 to impact of visa processes on UK tourism. This followed December 2009. our discussion at a meeting of the ministerial group on tourism in November. We will continue to work together Tourism: Olympic Games 2010 to ensure a proper balance between effective border controls and a vibrant visitor economy. Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Video Recordings Act 1984 Media and Sport if he will bring forward proposals to (a) provide new funds and (b) direct existing funds Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for into projects to increase tourism associated with the Culture, Media and Sport what the monetary value was London 2012 Olympics. [310085] of fines imposed under the provisions of the Video Recordings Act 1984 in each year since that Act came Margaret Hodge: There are currently no plans to into force. [310394] provide new funds specifically for tourism 2012 promotion in the present spending round to 2010-11. Mr. Simon: The Ministry of Justice have provided the In terms of existing funding, VisitBritain will shortly following information relating to the monetary value of be publishing their marketing strategy for 2012 which fines imposed under the provisions of the Video Recordings will look at ways to integrate 2012 games messages into Act 19841. everyday work. In essence this means that every aspect 1 Offences under: S.9.S.10, S.11, S.12, S.13, S.14 of the of tourism work will feature the 2012 games. Video Recording Act 1984 as amended by Criminal Overall, in partnership with industry and the wider Justice and Public Order Act 1994 public sector, I am seeking to use the 2012 games to promote the wider messages and interests of destination Value of fines imposed (£) Britain. 1995 29,695 1996 51,335 Tourism: Regional Development Agencies 1997 35,165 1998 32,065 Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, 1999 53,755 Media and Sport if he will make it his policy to ring-fence 2000 57,430 funding allocated to regional development agencies for 2001 55,610 [310271] the promotion of the tourism industry. 2002 60,055 2003 40,345 Margaret Hodge: The regional development agencies 2004 55,275 (RDAs) budgets are set as part of the spending review process. In CSR 2007, the RDAs were given budgets 2005 22,544 over three years to help them prepare their corporate 2006 25,545 plans for this period. 2007 19,960 Source: Six Government Departments contribute towards the Ministry of Justice RDAs’ single budget and the RDAs are then free to Data prior to 1995 is not held in a comparable format spend according to their regional priorities. This policy and could be supplied only at a disproportionate cost. is consistent with the Government’s determination to decentralise decision-making wherever possible. We do World Tourism Organisation not ring-fence funding for specific purposes. Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Tourism: Visas Media and Sport what role the UK plays in the UN World Tourism Organisation. [310123] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what recent discussions (a) Ministers Margaret Hodge [holding answer 11 January 2010]: and (b) officials in his Department have had with their The UK currently has no formal role in the UN World counterparts in the Home Office on the effect on the Tourism Organisation (UNWTO), but we continue to tourism industry of the cost of visas. [310274] keep membership under review in relation to the delivery of our strategic priorities and objectives for tourism. Margaret Hodge: The Government strives to strike I attended the World Tourism Trade Market hosted the right balance between maintaining the most secure by the UNWTO in November. My officials and I also and effective border controls in the world, and ensuring have regular bilateral meetings with tourism representatives that the visa fees structure does not inhibit the UK’s from other countries in order to support and promote ability to attract those migrants and visitors that make a tourism in the UK and abroad. Our engagement with valued contribution. The Home Office reviews fees and world tourism is also facilitated by VisitBritain’s charges annually to reflect changes to operating costs membership of the European Travel Commission, World and to its strategic approach. Fees are set following a Travel and Tourism Council and Pacific and Asia Travel full discussion with departments, including DCMS. Association. 1045W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1046W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE (e) testing and evaluation for his Department’s websites in each of the last three years; and what Carbon Emissions budget has been allocated for such activities in 2009-10. [309909] David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what information his Joan Ruddock: The Department of Energy and Climate Department holds for comparative purposes on historical Change was created on 3 October 2008, and its official levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. [310537] corporate website: http://www.decc.gov.uk/ Joan Ruddock: The Department uses data that are was launched on 23 February 2009. The Department’s available from several sources, including the IPCC Fourth website did not exist in 2007-08. Assessment Report, the World Data Centre for Greenhouse Gases and the World Resources Institute, to obtain The amount spent on the Department of Energy and information on long term historical levels of carbon Climate Change’s website in the 2008-09 financial year dioxide in the atmosphere. DECC also holds information was: £58,874.00. That figure breaks down as follows: on carbon dioxide levels measured at Mace Head in the (a) Strategy and planning: external procurement and project Republic of Ireland since 1995. management costs: £18,824 (b) Design and build: £30,403 Departmental Domestic Visits (c) Hosting: £900 (d) Content provision: Staff costs: £8747 Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (e) Testing and evaluation: £0 and Climate Change how many planned visits by Ministers in his Department within the UK were cancelled within The amount spent so far in 2009-10 for the Department’s 72 hours of the visit taking place in the last 12 months; website: and what the planned venue or venues were for each www.decc.gov.uk such visit. [309879] is £140,740.00. That figure breaks down as follows: Joan Ruddock: This information is not held centrally (a) Strategy and Planning: (external procurement and project and could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. management costs) £53542 Ministerial visits are made on the basis that they are (b) Design and build: £10457 provisional and subject to parliamentary and Government (c) Hosting: £4025 business. (d) Content provision (including migration from www.berr.gov.uk It is not normal practice for Government to report on and www.defra.gov.uk): £72170 cancelled visits. (e) Testing and evaluation: £546 accessibility fixes Departmental Internet The budget for www.decc.gov.uk Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for for such activities in 2009-10 is £340,637. Energy and Climate Change how much has been spent It has not been possible to breakdown costs for other on (a) strategy and planning, (b) design and build, (c) websites run by the Department; in these instances total hosting and infrastructure, (d) content provision and figures for each site are shown.

£ Financial year Budget Website 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2009-10 http://actonco2.direct.gov.uk/actonco2/home.html 0 126,800 100,500 185,000 https://www.energynpsconsultation.decc.gov.uk/ 0 0 68,000 68,000 www.sedbuk.com 0 1,000 2,000 2,000 www.Hfccat-demo.org 0 1,000 2,000 2,000 http://chp.decc.gov.uk/cms/ 0 26,000 7,500 7,500 http://www.Chpqa.com/ 25,000 26,500 24,500 24,500 www.corwm.org.uk 26,000 34,000 4,590 30,000 www.rimnet.gov.uk 15,000 15,000 15,000 15,000 www.og.decc.gov.uk 12,500 12,500 8,300.00 8,300 https://www.og.decc.gov.uk/EIP/pages/help.htm 0 8,000 8,300.00 8,300 www.pilottaskforce.co.uk 12,500 12,500 8,300.00 8,300 www.ensg.gov.uk 936.00 9,040.00 6,078.00 6,078.00 www.planningrenewables.org.uk 22,105 66,212.75 7,500 7,500 www.renewables-advisory-board.org.uk 0 12,000 9,000 9,000 www.ukrenewables.com 0 3,000 3,000 3,000 www.avoid.uk.net 0 0 15,000 15,000 www.lowcarbonbuildings.org.uk/home 0 15,000 0 0 www.bigenergyshift.org.uk 0 0 61,000 61,000 1047W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1048W

£ Financial year Budget Website 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2009-10 www.decc.gov.uk/offsetting 18,000 10,000 6,000 6,000 www.actoncopenhagen.gov.uk 0 0 83,529 118,000

Electricity: Scotland (a) Liquefied natural gas 2008 Percentage of imports put into the Ms Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Volume (million UK inland Energy and Climate Change how much electricity was Imported from cubic metres) transmission systems supplied by District network to (a) North Ayrshire and (b) the Isle of Arran in the last 12 month period Algeria 287 0.3 for which figures are available. [309299] Trinidad and Tobago 535 0.6 (b) Pipeline natural gas 2008 Mr. Kidney: Statistics for electricity supplied by district Percentage of are not held centrally. The relevant Distribution Network imports put into the Operators (Scottish Power Distribution and Scottish Volume (million UK inland and Southern Hydro-Electric Distribution) may be able Imported from cubic metres) transmission systems to provide figures. Belgium 1,127 1.2 Netherlands 8,440 9.0 Employment Tribunals Service Norway 25,528 27.2

Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for More recent monthly figures for imports of LNG by Energy and Climate Change whether an employment country are not available because of commercial sensitivity tribunal relating to his Department has been held since issues. However, imports and exports of natural gas are its inception. [309958] published monthly in Energy Trends Table 4.3 on the DECC website at this address: Joan Ruddock: There have been no employment tribunals http://www.decc.gov.uk/media/ relating to DECC held since it’s inception. viewfile.ashx?filepath=statistics/source/gas/ et4_3.xls&filetype=4 Greenhouse Gas Emissions In volume terms these figures show the following: Imports of natural gas in the 10 months to October 2009 David T.C. Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage of Energy and Climate Change what information his imports put into the Department holds on the percentage contribution of Volume (million UK inland (a) carbon dioxide, (b) water vapour and (c) methane Imported from cubic metres) transmission systems to the greenhouse gas effect. [310485] Liquefied natural gas 7,067 10.4 (various sources) Joan Ruddock: Scientific publications on the subject, Belgium 140 0.2 for example, Kiehl and Trenberth (1997, Bulletin of the Netherlands 4,562 6.7 American Meteorological Society) report that carbon Norway 18,700 27.6 dioxide contributes around 27 per cent. to the globally averaged greenhouse gas effect, water vapour around Nuclear Power 60 per cent., and methane about 3 per cent. The amount of water vapour present, and hence its contribution to Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the greenhouse gas effect, depends on the temperature and Climate Change what steps his Department is of the atmosphere. It therefore acts to amplify the taking to expand the capacity for nuclear power contribution of the other greenhouse gases. generation in the UK. [310503]

Natural Gas: Imports Mr. Kidney [holding answer 12 January 2010]: This Government are committed to addressing global climate Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for change and securing the UK’s energy supply and has Energy and Climate Change how much and what determined that new nuclear has a role to play in the proportion of the UK’s gas consumption was imported UK’s future energy mix. Government’s policy is that it from each country as (a) liquid natural gas and (b) a is in the public interest to allow energy companies to gas in the latest period for which figures are available. fund, develop and build new nuclear power stations and [310101] that Government will take active steps to make the conditions right for investment and enable new nuclear Mr. Kidney: The latest published figures for imports to come on line as soon as possible.. These actions are of liquefied natural gas (LNG) and pipeline gas by set out in the Nuclear White Paper (‘A White Paper on country are for 2008. The following tables show volumes Nuclear Power’, pp134, section 3.4-3.6) and the current of gas imported by country expressed as a proportion status is at: of gas put into the national transmission systems, i.e. http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we do/uk_supply/ available for consumption. energy_mix/nuclear/new/develop_forum/develop_forum.aspx 1049W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1050W

Nuclear Power Stations: Public Consultation TREASURY Budget Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many people attended Mr. Ellwood: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the public discussion meeting on the proposed nuclear what factors are taken into account in deciding on the power station at (a) Hartlepool, (b) Heysham, (c) date of the annual Budget statement; and if he will Sizewell and (d) Bradwell which was held as part of the make a statement. [310087] consultation on the draft nuclear national policy statement. [310315] Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Code of Fiscal Stability requires there to be a Budget each financial year. It also requires there to be three months between a pre-Budget Mr. Kidney: Below are the attendance figures for the report statement and the Budget. The Chancellor decides public discussion meetings relating to consultation on the date of the Budget taking into account factors such the draft nuclear national policy statement at the as the parliamentary timetable and economic factors. aforementioned sites. Car Allowances: NHS (a) Hartlepool: 34 people (b) Heysham: 72 people Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (c) Sizewell: 64 people (1) what discussions his Department has had with the Department of Health on the effect of approved (d) Bradwell: mileage allowance payment rates on the number of (i) West Mersea: 52 people voluntary NHS drivers; [309694] (ii) Maldon: 28 people. (2) what account is taken of (a) fuel and (b) other transport costs in setting approved mileage allowance payment rates; [309696] Power Stations: Carbon Emissions (3) if he will hold a public consultation on rates for the approved mileage allowance payment scheme; [309697] Dr. Pugh: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy (4) if he will consider the merits of providing higher and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the approved mileage allowance payment rates for drivers level of (a) carbon dioxide emissions and (b) carbon working for the voluntary sector. [309757] dioxide emissions per megawatt hour for the life-cycle of the proposed new (i) coal, (ii) gas, (iii) oil, (iv) Mr. Timms: The Government consider the Approved hydroelectric, (v) nuclear, (vi) wind and (vii) tidal Mileage Allowance Payment (AMAP) rates to be a fair power generating facilities. [310069] reflection of the costs of business motoring for the vast majority of drivers. Joan Ruddock: Any estimates of total life cycle emissions HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) conducted a of power stations necessarily contain a high degree of review of the interaction between Approved Mileage uncertainty and outcomes will depend strongly on market Allowance Payments (AMAPs) and Employee Car factors such as energy prices, electricity demand profiles Ownership Schemes during 2007. The resulting report and plant life times. With the exception of nuclear was published alongside the 2008 pre-Budget report power the department has not produced any of the and is available at: requested estimates. With respect to per unit life cycle http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2008/comp-car-tax-805.pdf emissions, the 2008 White Paper on nuclear power As part of this review, the Department canvassed the estimated that the life-cycle emissions from nuclear views of over 30 other Government Departments. However, power were in the range of 7-22gCO2/kWh of electricity the review did not cover the impact of approved mileage generated. The white paper references two papers which allowance payment rates on voluntary drivers because have produced estimates of life cycle emissions per these rates are primarily for employees. kWh. Nuclear Energy and the Kyoto Protocol (2002) OECD Nuclear Energy Agency; Assessing the difference: HMRC accept that volunteer drivers who use their Greenhouse Gas Emissions of Electricity Generation own cars and are reimbursed at or below the AMAPs Chains (2000) IAEA Bulletin. We summarise the rates do not make a taxable profit. Alternatively, volunteer information provided by these papers as follows for drivers can be reimbursed the full cost of motoring other technologies and our estimates for nuclear. provided they are able to demonstrate what those costs were. Fuel is one of the factors taken into account in Neither the Department nor the referenced studies setting AMAP rates, as are other costs of running a have produced estimates for tidal power generation. private car. All taxes are kept under review with any decisions, Technology g CO /kWh 2 including public consultations, announced by the Chancellor Coal 755 as part of the Budget process. Gas 385 Cheques Oil 545 Hydroelectric 4-23 Nuclear 7-22 Jenny Willott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Wind (UK) 9 what assessment his Department has made of the potential effects of phasing out cheques by the end of 2018 on 1051W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1052W

(a) levels of recorded income of small businesses and Alcohol consumption is affected by the economic (b) levels of tax revenues from that income; and if he climate, by trends in consumer tastes and by changes in will make a statement. [310479] price, both from duty rates and from changes to input costs. Consumption also varies significantly at different Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The closure of Cheque and times of the year. Credit Clearing is a commercial decision and one that the Payments Council, an independent body that sets Holiday Accommodation the strategy for UK payment systems, will take. The Government, however, recognise that certain groups Mr. Weir: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) still value cheques as a significant method of payment. what recent research his Department has undertaken on Government believe it is imperative that adequate the geographical distribution of self-catering properties alternatives be in place for all users of cheques, including relative to the nearest hotel, guesthouse and bed and small businesses, the elderly and the Third Sector, ahead breakfast accommodation; [310263] of any potential closure of the cheque clearing system. (2) whether his Department undertook research on As part of ongoing dialogue with stakeholders, the the respective facilities offered by self-catering Council will seek to undertake further analysis with properties and bed and breakfast accommodation in regards to the effects of closing the cheque system on all remote and rural areas prior to the publication of the users. draft technical note, Withdrawing the Furnished Holiday Lettings Rules from 2010-11. [310264] Excise Duties Mr. Timms: The technical note entitled ‘Withdrawing Dr. Pugh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the Furnished Holiday Lettings Rules from 2010-11’, how much revenue has been generated by duty on (a) and the ‘Impact Assessment of Withdrawing the Furnished alcohol and (b) tobacco in each of the last 10 years. Holiday Lettings Rules’ were prepared on the basis of [310063] representations received and meetings held with interested parties, together with information contained within tax Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Historical alcohol duty revenue returns and other publicly available information. The figures can be found in Table 2 of any of HM Revenue Government welcome comments on these documents. and Customs Alcohol Bulletins, copies of which can be found at: Taxation: Holiday Accommodation https://www.uktradeinfo.com/ index.cfm?task=bulletins&hasFlashPlayer=true John Mason: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer The latest available annual data relate to 2008-09. what assessment HM Revenue and Customs has made Historical tobacco duty revenue figures can be found of the effects on city-centre executive serviced in Table 3 of the HM Revenue and Customs Tobacco apartments operated by multinational hotel companies Bulletin, a copy of which can be found at: of the proposed abolition of furnished holiday lettings https://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=bulltobacco relief; and what discussions his Department has held with such companies on their future tax liability. The latest available annual data relate to 2008-09. [310130]

David T.C. Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the Mr. Timms: An impact assessment for the repeal of Exchequer (1) how much accrued to the Exchequer in the furnished holiday lettings (FHL) rules was published excise duty on spirit-based ready-to-drink alcoholic alongside the 2009 pre-Budget report, together with drinks in each of the last five years; [310352] draft legislation. The Government welcome comment (2) how much accrued to the Exchequer from excise on these documents. duty on (a) beer, (b) cider, (c) wine and (d) spirits in After 1 April 2010, businesses providing accommodation each of the last five years; [310353] which would previously have qualified under the FHL (3) what assessment he has made of the effect on rules, which could include serviced apartments, will alcohol consumption of changes in the level of alcohol need to consider whether the business is a trade or a duty in the last three years. [310354] property business. This will depend on the facts of the particular business. HM Revenue and Customs guidance Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Total excise duty receipts by published alongside the 2009 pre-Budget report, available type of alcohols products (beer, cider, wine and spirits) at: can be found in the HM Revenue and Customs ‘Beer http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/withdrawing-lettings-rules- and Cider Bulletin’, ‘Wine of Fresh Grapes or Made 3760.pdf Wine Bulletin’ and ‘Spirits Bulletin’, which are available explains the factors businesses need to take into account. from the HM Revenue and Customs website addresses at: Treasury Ministers and officials have discussions with a wide variety of organisations as part of the process of http://www.uktradeinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?task=bullbeer policy development and delivery. As was the case with http://www.uktradeinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?task=bullfresh previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s http://www.uktradeinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?task=bullmadewine practice to provide details of all such meetings. http://www.uktradeinfo.co.uk/index.cfm?task=bullspirits Separate figures for spirit-based ready-to-drink products Mr. Weir: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer are available in terms of quantities only and not in pursuant to the answer of 16 December 2009, Official terms of duty receipts. Report, column 1383W, on taxation: holiday 1053W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1054W accommodation, if he will place in the Library a copy (2) what the (a) average and (b) highest number of of each citation in case law referred to. [310265] tax credits cheques sent to a unique claimant was in the course of (i) one year and (ii) one month in (A) Mr. Timms: There are a number of tax cases in which 2005-06, (B) 2006-07, (C) 2007-08 and (D) 2008-09. the courts have considered what constitutes a trade. [308195] Two cases that consider whether the provision of furnished accommodation amounts to a trade are Griffiths v. Mr. Timms: The information requested could be provided Jackson (56 TC 583), which contains an analysis of the only at disproportionate cost, given the work needed to case law on the difference between trade and property extract this from the tax credits computer system. income, and Gittos v. Barclay (55 TC 633), which specifically looked at whether or not a furnished holiday letting John Battle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer business was a trade. The Library holds a copy of both (1) how many contacts were made on average by (a) all these cases. claimants and (b) citizens of A8 and A2 countries to the Tax Credits Office in applying for tax credit in cases Mr. Weir: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer where the application was subsequently withdrawn in pursuant to the answer of 16 December 2009, Official (i) 2005-06, (ii) 2006-07, (iii) 2007-08 and (iv) 2008-09; Report, column 1382W, on taxation: holiday [309787] accommodation, what representations his Department (2) what record his Department holds of the (a) received on the abolition of furnished holiday lettings largest and (b) average number of contacts made by relief between 20 October and 16 December 2009. applicants for tax credit to the Tax Credits Office in [310266] (i) the last 12 months and (ii) January (A) 2005-06, (B) 2006-07, (C) 2007-08 and (D) 2008-09. [309788] Mr. Timms: The Treasury receives representations on a range of issues. As was the case with the previous Mr. Timms: The information requested is not readily Administration, it is not the Government’s practice to available and could be provided only at disproportionate provide details of all such representations. cost, as HM Revenue and Customs would need to interrogate individual claimants’ records manually to Mr. Weir: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer establish this. (1) how many properties in receipt of furnished holiday lettings tax relief were awarded farm diversification grants in the last 12 months; [310267] (2) for how many properties for expedited sale BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS furnished holiday lettings tax relief has been awarded. [310268] Business: Cybercrime Mr. Timms: The information requested is not available, as HM Revenue and Customs’ (HMRC) do not hold Tom Levitt: To ask the Minister of State, Department information on the recipients of farm diversification for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he grants; these are administered by Regional Development has made of the level of risk to businesses posed by Agencies. malevolent software; and what steps his Department is taking to (a) mitigate such risks and (b) tackle the use An impact assessment on the repeal of the furnished of malevolent software. [309680] holiday lettings (FHL) rules was published alongside the 2009 Pre-Budget Report, and is available at: Mr. Timms: The Department has conducted a series http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/furnished-holiday-ia- of surveys of business to gauge the impact of IT 3760.pdf security breaches and the response to security challenges such as the increase in malicious software. There is no Taxation: Property doubt that such software is a serious threat to business and domestic users, and practical advice on protecting Andrew George: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer systems against it features in our work with GetSafeOnLine if he will review the rules on the election of a property http://www.getsafeonline.org/ as a primary residence on individuals for the purpose of aimed at informing the public and smaller businesses; determining future tax liability to ensure that such our work with business through the Digital Systems liabilities are met. [310411] Knowledge Transfer Network; and our work with the management of the Critical National Infrastructure. Mr. Timms: Tax policy changes are considered through The pursuit of those who develop and use such software the Budget process in the usual way. The Government is a matter for the law enforcement authorities. consider a range of factors when formulating tax policy and keep all aspects of the tax system under review. Departmental Accountants

Welfare Tax Credits Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his John Battle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Department takes to prevent conflicts of interest arising (1) what the largest sum of tax credits paid retrospectively in the activities of accountants appointed by his Department to an individual or couple was (a) in 2009, (b) in 2008 in relation to companies entering into administration. and (c) since tax credits were introduced; [308105] [310295] 1055W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1056W

Ian Lucas: The Department does not appoint annual estimates of the proportion of 16 to 17-year-olds accountants in relation to companies entering into participating in education and training in each local administration. Administrators are appointed by court authority. These estimates are available via this link order; the holder of a qualifying charge; the company under “additional information”: or its directors. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000849/ Only insolvency practitioners can act as administrators index.shtml and they are required to comply with an ethical code An alternative source of data is the Connexions Client which was revised on 1 January 2009. This provides that Caseload Information System (CCIS). This records the they should take reasonable steps to identify circumstances main activity of 16 to 18-year-olds known to Connexions. that could pose a conflict of interest and have regard to Proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds known to Leeds Connexions the safeguards that may be applied to reduce these to an estimated to be in education, training or employment acceptable level. It applies to any professional work that Percentage may lead to an insolvency appointment, in addition to work undertaken as a result of a formal insolvency 20061 75.0 appointment. 20072 81.3 2 The insolvency regulators, including my noble Friend 2008 82.8 1 2006 estimate excludes young people in part-time employment the Secretary of State, will consider any potential breaches 2 of the ethical code and take any necessary disciplinary 2007 and 2008 estimates include young people in part-time employment action. Claimant count data are available via the Office for National Statistics Nomis website: Educational Psychologists: Training https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/. The following table shows the average number of young John Battle: To ask the Minister of State, Department people aged 16-19 claiming jobseeker’s allowance and for Business, Innovation and Skills what representations thereby registered unemployed in the Leeds, West he has received on the funding of trainee educational constituency in each year from 1996, the first year psychologists in the last 12 months; and if he will make available, to 2008. Because population estimates for 16 a statement. [306994] to 19-year-olds are not routinely available by parliamentary constituency, it is not possible to express these figures as Mr. Lammy: I have received no representations on percentages. this subject. Average 16 to 19-year-old claimant count in Leeds West by year Average claimant count Partnerships: Company Accounts 1996 275 John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department 1997 255 for Business, Innovation and Skills when his Department 1998 250 first provided notification of its decision to include 1999 215 e-filing options for limited liability partnerships in the 2000 210 WebFiling service at Companies House. [310066] 2001 205 2002 195 : Companies House first set out Electronic 2003 210 Filing for Limited Liability Partnerships (LLPs) as a 2004 215 development objective in its 2009-10 Business Plan. 2005 235 This was published in April 2009 and is available on 2006 245 their website 2007 225 www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/pdf/businessPlan2009- 2008 240 10.pdf The current project aims to allow e-filing by LLPs via It should be noted that 16 and 17-year-olds do not the WebFiling service on the Companies House website have routine access to job seeker’s allowance except in as well as via the Software Filing service that allows cases of severe hardship. submissions to be made direct from third party software. It aims to make initial e-filing options for LLPs available Vocational Training: Young People from spring 2010. Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department Unemployment: Leeds for Business, Innovation and Skills how many and what proportion of people aged 16 to 24 years have not been John Battle: To ask the Minister of State, Department in education, employment or training for (a) more than for Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of six months, (b) between six months and one year, (c) 16 to 19 year olds in Leeds West constituency were (a) between one and two years and (d) more than two in education, training or employment and (b) registered years. [307768] as unemployed in each year since 1992. [306597] Mr. Iain Wright: I have been asked to reply Mr. Iain Wright: I have been asked to reply. The information requested is not available for 16 to Estimates of the number of 16 to 19-year-olds 24-year-olds. Analysis of the Longitudinal Study of participating in education, employment or training are Young People in England (LSYPE) and the Youth riot available at parliamentary constituency level. The Cohort Study (YCS) shows that in the two years following Department for Children, Schools and Families publishes completion of compulsory education, 4 per cent. of 1057W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1058W young people spent between one and three months not Average 16 to 19-year-old claimant count in North East Milton Keynes in education, employment or training (NEEfT); 9 per by year cent. spent between four and 12 months NEET; and Average claimant count 4 per cent. spent over 12 months NEET. These estimates 2005 105 are disaggregated by characteristics such as ethnic group, 2006 125 sex and parental occupation in the Statistical Bulletin 2007 130 “YouthCohort Study and Longitudinal Study of Young 2008 135 People in England: The Activities and Experiences of 17-year-olds: England 2008”: It should be noted that 16 and 17-year-olds do not http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SBU/b000850/ have routine access to jobseeker’s allowance except in index.shtml. cases of severe hardship. Young People: Milton Keynes

Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Minister of State, CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what percentage of 16 to 19 year olds resident in Milton 11 MILLION Keynes were (a) in education, training or employment and (b) registered as unemployed in each year since Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for 1997. [308090] Children, Schools and Families how many people are employed in 11 Million; what the salary is for each post Mr. Iain Wright: I have been asked to reply. at that organisation; and what posts at that organisation Estimates of the number of 16 to 19-year-olds are vacant. [309188] participating in education, employment or training are not available at parliamentary constituency level. The Ms Diana R. Johnson: These are matters for 11 Department for Children, Schools and Families publishes MILLION (formerly the Office of the Children’s annual estimates of the proportion of 16 to 17-year-olds Commissioner). Sue Berelowitz Deputy Children’s participating in education and training in each local Commissioner at 11 MILLION, has written to the hon. authority. These estimates are available via this link Member with this information and a copy of her reply under “additional information”: will be placed in the House Libraries. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000849/ Academies: Lincolnshire index.shtml An alternative source of data is the Connexions Client Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Caseload Information System (CCIS). This records the Children, Schools and Families how much funding for main activity of 16 to 18-year-olds known to Connexions. academies in North East Lincolnshire has been Proportion of 16 to 18-year-olds known to Milton Keynes Connexions provided by (a) Government and (b) sponsors since estimated to be in education, training or employment the inception of the academy scheme. [309768] Percentage

20061 79.5 Mr. Coaker: The funding provided to date by the 20072 90.6 Government and the payments made by sponsors for 20082 90.8 academies in north-east Lincolnshire is set out in the following table. All three academies opened in September 1 2006 estimate excludes young people in part-time employment. 2 2007 and 2008 estimates include young people in part-time employment 2007. Claimant count data are available via the Office for National Statistics Nomis website: £ Oasis Oasis https://www.nomisweb.co.uk/ Academy Academy Havelock The following table shows the average number of young Immingham Wintringham Academy people aged 16-19 claiming jobseekers allowance and Government thereby registered unemployed in the North East Milton funding Keynes constituency in each year from 1997 to 2008. Development/ 1,653,974 1,530,199 1,102,472 Because population estimates for 16 to 19-year-olds are set-up costs not routinely available by parliamentary constituency, it Revenue 13,608,329 13,960,785 14,432,332 is not possible to express these figures as percentages. running costs 1 Average 16 to 19-year-old claimant count in North East Milton Keynes Capital costs 26,322,207 24,391,147 278,570 by year Average claimant count Sponsor 0 0 500,000 payments 1997 150 1 For minor work on existing buildings—work on new buildings has 1998 115 not yet started 1999 100 Children’s Centres: Closures 2000 75 2001 70 2002 65 Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2003 95 Schools and Families how many (a) children’s and (b) 2004 95 Sure Start centres have closed in each of the last five years; and if he will make a statement. [303725] 1059W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1060W

Dawn Primarolo: Sure Start Children’s Centres were Education Maintenance Allowance: Barnsley introduced from 2003-04—all former Sure Start Local Programmes are now Sure Start Children’s Centres. Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, No Sure Start Children’s Centres were closed between Schools and Families how many students in post-16 2005-06 and 2008-09. In 2009-10, two Sure Start Children’s education in Barnsley East and Mexborough constituency Centre buildings were closed. In both cases the services have been in receipt of education maintenance allowance originally offered are being provided by neighbouring in each year since its introduction. [307160] centres. Children’s Centres: Nottingham Mr. Iain Wright: This is a matter for the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) who operate the education Mr. Allen: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, maintenance allowance (EMA) for the Department for Schools and Families how many Sure Start centres Children, Schools and Families (DCSF). Geoffrey Russell, there are in Nottingham North constituency; and how the LSC’s acting chief executive, will write to my hon. many children they assist. [308295] Friend with the information requested and a copy of his reply will be placed in the House Libraries. : There are a total of seven designated Sure Start Children’s Centres in Nottingham North Free School Meals: Stoke on Trent constituency, with a reach area of over 6,000 under fives and their families. Reach area defines those children and families with the opportunity to access Sure Start Mr. Flello: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Children’s Centres. Figures for the number of people Schools and Families if he will assess the merits of actually using children’s centres are not collected centrally. making Stoke-on-Trent city council the West Midlands’ pilot authority for universal free school meals. [310259] Departmental Finance Ms Diana R. Johnson: As part of the pre-budget Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for report, the Chancellor has announced an extension to Children, Schools and Families how much funding has the universal free school meal pilots for primary children been allocated for (a) editorial resources for and (b) so that there is a pilot in each English region. No enhancing and developing the Sure Start website in decisions have been taken yet as to which local authority 2009-10 and 2010-11. [305339] areas will be selected. Dawn Primarolo: The Sure Start website was closed as part of the Cabinet Office web rationalisation Further Education: Finance programme. The content of the Sure Start, Local Authorities and Evety Child Matters (ECM) websites Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for have been converged and these sites replaced with the Children, Schools and Families how much funding he current ECM website, which launched in May 2009. plans to allocate to university technical colleges for 14 The Department allocated £341,288 for editorial resources to 19 year olds, as referred to in paragraph 27 of his and £274,117 for enhancing and developing the ECM Department’s paper Skills for Growth in (a) 2010, (b) website in the 2009-2010 financial year. Funding to 2011 and (c) 2012; and how many such colleges he cover the editorial resourcing and enhancement and plans to establish in each such year. [304836] development of ECM for the 2010-11 financial year has yet to be allocated. Mr. Iain Wright: University technical colleges are Departmental Pay funded through the Academies programme. We currently have two projects in feasibility and the funding requirement Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for for each project is currently being assessed. The number Children, Schools and Families how much funding his of future university technical colleges will be assessed Department has allocated for (a) year end and (b) on a case by case basis. in-year bonuses for its staff in 2009-10. [307021] Languages: Education Ms Diana R. Johnson: The pay bill for 2009-10 is estimated at £133 million, of which non-consolidated performance payments payable at end year represents Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, £2.5 million. There are no in-year non-consolidated Schools and Families how many secondary schools in payments. England provided tuition in (1) Arabic in each year since 2007; [310093] All employees are eligible for non-consolidated performance payments, subject to strict criteria in line (2) Mandarin in each of the last three years. [310094] with the Government’s policy on public sector pay. Senior civil service non-consolidated payments are Ms Diana R. Johnson: We do not have exact numbers determined as part of a central performance management of secondary schools offering tuition in Arabic and framework managed by the Cabinet Office. Payments Mandarin. However, figures for the proportions of for other grades are subject to the pay remit process and secondary schools offering tuition in Arabic and Mandarin reflect previous pay settlements. Non-consolidated in 2007 and 2008, based on a survey of a representative performance payments have to re-earn each year and do sample of schools, are in the following table. Research not add to future pay bill costs (e.g. pensions) and are for 2009 will be published later this month by CILT, the an integral element of the reward package for staff. National Centre for Languages. 1061W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1062W

In addition the legislation will introduce a set of Percentage guiding principles that govern the way in which the Arabic Mandarin PSHE as a subject should be delivered in secondary 2008 5 14 schools. Schools governors will be under a duty to 2007 3 9 ensure these principles act as safeguards against inappropriate teaching. Leeds It will also be a requirement for the governing body to have regard to any guidance that may be issued by John Battle: To ask the Secretary of State for the Secretary of State. Children, Schools and Families how much capital expenditure his Department has incurred in the Leeds Pre-school Education: Closures city area in the last three years. [306942]

Mr. Coaker: The information requested is as follows: Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many maintained nurseries (a) Support for capital investment in schools in Leeds have closed in each of the last five years; and if he will City is shown in the following table make a statement. [303729] £ million Dawn Primarolo: The following table provides details 2007-08 77.40 of the 32 local authority maintained nursery school 2008-09 32.60 closures that have been implemented since 2005 along 2009-10 51.50 with the reason for closure. The allocation in 2007-08 included £42.2 million in Reason for respect of Building Schools for the Future, and the maintenance 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total allocation in 2009-10 includes £11.0 million advanced from 2010-11. Cease to 2— 1—— 3 maintain (b) Support for capital investment on Sure Start Close for 1—— 5 6 Early Years and Childcare in Leeds City is shown in the brand new following table. nursery Close for 12—1—4 £ million brand new primary 2007-08 8.36 Close for ——— 5 5 2008-09 7.36 brand new 2009-10 4.86 Children’s Centre (c) Support for capital investment from YoungPerson’s Close for 4312414 funding covers a number of different projects and ‘Add nursery programmes. Leeds City area has received the following unit’ from the Youth Capital Fund: Total 8528932

Youth Capital Fund (£ million) This shows that in three (cease to maintain) of the cases the nursery provision was not replaced with planned 2007-08 0.4289 alternative provision. In all the other cases the closures 2008-09 0.4289 were effectively technical and each was replaced with 2009-10 0.4289 alternative nursery provision of some type. With regard to MY Place capital spending Leeds has The reasons the department has been given for the one project for which funding was awarded in November three closures were: 2008 was £4.979 million. Leeds city council is the lead (a) Staffordshire 2005: Two nursery schools ceased to partner. be maintained due to numbers on roll having declined rapidly as birth rates fell and the range of other local Personal Social and Health Education provision, much of it incorporating childcare, developed. (b) Manchester 2007: The Nursery school had a capacity Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for for 65 full-time equivalent places, but only 19 pupils on Children, Schools and Families what role school governors roll, so was no longer viable; there was sufficient alternative would have in determining the personal, social, health provision available elsewhere. and economic education curriculum at Key Stages 3 and 4 under the provisions proposed in the Children, Pre-School Education: Finance Schools and Families Bill. [309712]

Ms Diana R. Johnson: The role of school governors’ Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for will be crucial to the success of statutory PSHE as they Children, Schools and Families (1) how much funding will take a lead in setting the tone for good PSHE, has been allocated for the purposes of extending the including SRE and drugs education through the free early learning entitlement to two year olds from development of clear policies in consultation with teachers, the most deprived households in (a) 2008-09, (b) pupils and parents. 2009-10 and (c) 2010-11; [305270] 1063W Written Answers13 JANUARY 2010 Written Answers 1064W

(2) what funding his Department has allocated to the from the Joint Social Work Unit (established by the two extension of the free entitlement to early education to Departments to support the Task Force) worked with two year olds who do not have such an entitlement at the chair and members of the task force on successive present in (a) 2009-10, (b) 2010-11 and (c) 2011-12. drafts of the final report from 13 October onwards. [305278] Ministers in both Departments were provided with a draft of the executive summary of the final report on 20 Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 8 December 2009]: November. Ministers were also provided with a near-final Funding allocated to support the Free Early Learning version of the full report on 27 November in preparation and Childcare offer to the most disadvantaged two-year-olds for launch and publication on 1 December. is as follows: Vale of Berkeley College £ million Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2008-09 20 Schools and Families what documentation was made 2009-10 61 available to Graham Badman on Gloucestershire 2010-11 76 county council’s proposals on Vale of Berkeley College Decisions regarding future funding settlements will for his evaluation of National Challenge Schools in be taken as part of the next spending review. Gloucestershire. [310390]

Mrs. Maria Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Coaker: DCSF officials gave Graham Badman Children, Schools and Families how many two year the minutes from previous local national challenge board olds are receiving the free entitlement to early education; meetings. Vale of Berkeley college was discussed at and what plans he has to increase the number of two these meetings. Graham Badman also had written year olds in receipt of the free entitlement to early information directly from Gloucestershire county council. education in each of the next three financial years. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, [305277] Schools and Families whether his Department has Dawn Primarolo [holding answer 8 December 2009]: agreed to the request of Gloucestershire county council Over 20,000 two-year-olds already have access to free to extend the period of consultation on its proposed places and we will continue to make progress on the closure of Vale of Berkeley College. [310391] long-term ambition to provide free part-time nursery Mr. Coaker: I can confirm that the Department has places for all two-year-olds whose parents want them. not received a request from Gloucestershire county The reforms the Government are making to tax relief council to extend the period of consultation on its for Childcare Vouchers will allow us to go further. proposed closure of the Vale of Berkeley college. The Two-year-old places will continue to be rolled out stage- statutory process for the proposed closure of a school is by-stage in each of the next three financial years. a matter for the local authority. A five stage statutory Schools: Radcliffe process must be followed for school closures, with each stage informing the next. Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families pursuant to the oral Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, answer to the hon. Member for North East Milton Schools and Families what discussions took place Keynes of 30 November 2009, Official Report, column between his Department and Gloucestershire county 827, on Radcliffe school, whether the decision on Academy council on the format of the council’s consultation on status for the Radcliffe school is the responsibility of the proposed closure of Vale of Berkeley college. Milton Keynes council; what involvement he has in [310392] such decisions; and if he will make a statement. [303970] Mr. Coaker: I can confirm that no discussions took Mr. Coaker [holding answer 3 December 2009]: place between the Department and Gloucestershire county Academies are always jointly commissioned with the council on the format of the council’s consultation relevant local authority and with its support. Once which proposes to close the Vale of Berkeley college. agreement has been reached the Secretary of State for School closure is, and remains, a matter for a local Children, Schools and Families is responsible for approving authority. A five stage statutory process must be followed the decision to transform a school into an academy, for school closures, with each stage informing the next. allowing the project to progress to the next stage of the Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, development process. Schools and Families when his Department was first Social Work Taskforce informed of Gloucestershire county council’s proposals with regard to Vale of Berkeley college. [310393] Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families on what dates his Mr. Coaker: Gloucestershire county council submitted Department received drafts of the Social Work Task its draft implementation plan in response to Graham Force’s final report before it was finalised. [308102] Badman’s review of national challenge progress in Gloucestershire on the 11 November 2009. The plan Dawn Primarolo: The Social Work Task Force was an stated that Gloucestershire county council accepted expert group, jointly appointed by the Secretaries of Graham Badman’s recommendation to close Vale of State for Health and for Children, Schools and Families, Berkeley college from September 2010, subject to statutory to advise the Government on social wok reform. Officials proposals and consultation.

7MC Ministerial Corrections13 JANUARY 2010 Ministerial Corrections 8MC Ministerial Correction Mr. Heath: A written statement. Ms Harman: I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon—he Wednesday 13 January 2010 is right that it was a written ministerial statement. I think I remember that that statement contained the LEADER OF THE HOUSE information that there were something like 16,000 Business of the House routine FOI requests, of which only two have been vetoed, so it was a very exceptional occurrence, which Ms Harman: I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon—he is why things were spelt out in a written ministerial is right that it was a written ministerial statement. I statement. The framework that is set down by the think I remember that that statement contained the Freedom of Information Act 2000 was followed as part information that there were something like 16,000 of that process. routine FOI requests, of which only two have been vetoed, so it was a very exceptional occurrence, which The correct answer should have been: is why things were spelt out in a written ministerial Ms Harman: I beg the hon. Gentleman’s pardon—he statement. The framework that is set down by the is right that it was a written ministerial statement. I Freedom of Information Act 2000 was followed as part think I remember that that statement contained the of that process. information that there were something like 160,000 [Official Report, 7 January 2010, Vol. 503, c. 286.] non-routine FOI requests, of which only two have been Letter of correction from Ms Harman: vetoed, so it was a very exceptional occurrence, which An error has been identified in the oral answer given is why things were spelt out in a written ministerial to the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome statement. The framework that is set down by the (Mr. Heath) during Business Questions on 7 January Freedom of Information Act 2000 was followed as part 2010. The full answer given was as follows: of that process.

ORAL ANSWERS

Wednesday 13 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRIME MINISTER ...... 679 SCOTLAND—continued Early Intervention...... 683 Cross-Border Transport ...... 676 Engagements...... 679 Employment ...... 678 Engagements...... 684 Employment (Ayrshire)...... 673 Fuel Poverty...... 677 SCOTLAND...... 669 New Deal...... 676 Armed Forces (Morale) ...... 669 Scottish Culture ...... 674 Cross-Border Transport ...... 672 Youth Unemployment...... 678 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

Wednesday 13 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 23WS Groceries Supply Code of Practice...... 23WS PETITIONS

Wednesday 13 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITIONS DEFENCE...... 18P Badman Report (Richmond (Yorks)) ...... 17P Deepcut Army Barracks ...... 18P Badman Report (Solihull)...... 17P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Wednesday 13 January 2010

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 1054W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 999W Business: Cybercrime ...... 1054W Energy Performance Certificates...... 999W Departmental Accountants...... 1054W Home Information Packs...... 1000W Educational Psychologists: Training ...... 1055W Housing: Owner Occupation...... 1001W Partnerships: Company Accounts...... 1055W Unemployment: Leeds ...... 1055W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT...... 1037W Vocational Training: Young People ...... 1056W Amusement Arcades: Coastal Areas ...... 1037W Young People: Milton Keynes...... 1057W Arts Council England ...... 1037W Arts Council England: Car Allowances...... 1039W CABINET OFFICE...... 1002W Arts Council England: Finance...... 1039W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Wales...... 1002W Gambling Act 2005...... 1039W Official Residences: Repairs and Maintenance...... 1002W Gambling Commission ...... 1040W Gambling Commission: Crime...... 1041W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 1058W Olympic Games 2012: Culture ...... 1041W 11 MILLION...... 1058W Regional Design Panels...... 1042W Academies: Lincolnshire ...... 1058W Royal Parks: Parking...... 1042W Children’s Centres: Closures ...... 1058W Swimming: Concessions...... 1042W Children’s Centres: Nottingham ...... 1059W Tourism: Olympic Games 2010 ...... 1043W Departmental Finance ...... 1059W Tourism: Regional Development Agencies...... 1043W Departmental Pay ...... 1059W Tourism: Visas ...... 1043W Education Maintenance Allowance: Barnsley ...... 1060W Video Recordings Act 1984...... 1044W Free School Meals: Stoke on Trent ...... 1060W World Tourism Organisation...... 1044W Further Education: Finance...... 1060W Languages: Education...... 1060W DEFENCE...... 993W Leeds...... 1061W Armed Forces: Hearing Impaired ...... 993W Personal Social and Health Education ...... 1061W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 994W Pre-school Education: Closures ...... 1062W Defence Storage and Distribution Agency ...... 995W Pre-School Education: Finance...... 1062W Departmental Advertising...... 995W Schools: Radcliffe ...... 1063W Departmental Conferences...... 996W Social Work Taskforce ...... 1063W Departmental Information and Communications Vale of Berkeley College ...... 1064W Technology ...... 996W Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE—continued HOME DEPARTMENT—continued Future Large Aircraft ...... 997W Criminal Proceedings: Autism...... 985W Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft...... 997W Departmental Air Travel ...... 985W Members: Correspondence ...... 998W DNA and Fingerprint Database ...... 985W Military Aircraft: Accidents...... 998W DNA: Databases...... 986W Military Aircraft: Helicopters ...... 998W Human Trafficking ...... 986W Military Aircraft: Training ...... 998W Human Trafficking: Children...... 987W Somalia: Piracy ...... 999W Humberside Police ...... 987W Illegal Immigrants...... 988W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 1045W Independent Safeguarding Authority: Manpower.. 988W Carbon Emissions...... 1045W Iraq Committee of Inquiry ...... 989W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 1045W Licensing...... 989W Departmental Internet ...... 1045W Olympic Games 2012: Security ...... 990W Electricity: Scotland...... 1047W Police: Training ...... 991W Employment Tribunals Service...... 1047W Police: Weapons ...... 991W Greenhouse Gas Emissions...... 1047W Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000...... 991W Natural Gas: Imports...... 1047W UK Border Agency ...... 992W Nuclear Power...... 1048W United Kingdom Human Trafficking Centre: Nuclear Power Stations: Public Consultation...... 1049W Publications ...... 992W Power Stations: Carbon Emissions...... 1049W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 959W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Bars...... 959W AFFAIRS...... 963W Members: Allowances ...... 959W Agriculture: Carbon Sequestration ...... 963W Members: Computer Software ...... 960W Agriculture: Waste Disposal...... 963W Members: Electronic Equipment...... 960W Bovine Tuberculosis: Disease Control...... 963W Parliamentary Information and Communications Bovine Tuberculosis: Vaccination...... 964W Technology Service ...... 960W Flood Control...... 964W Lake Windermere ...... 965W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 1012W Water Charges...... 966W Departmental Surveys...... 1012W Departmental Training ...... 1012W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 973W Non-Governmental Organisations: Finance ...... 1012W Belarus: Internet ...... 973W Overseas Aid...... 1014W Colombia ...... 974W Trades Union Congress...... 1014W Colombia: Overseas Trade ...... 974W Uganda: Homosexuality ...... 1015W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 975W Uganda: Human Rights...... 1015W Departmental Manpower...... 975W Uganda: Overseas Aid ...... 1016W Departmental Pay ...... 976W Departmental Training ...... 977W JUSTICE...... 1008W Equatorial Guinea: Human Rights ...... 977W Defamation...... 1008W Morocco ...... 978W Departmental Assets...... 1009W North Korea: Human Rights ...... 978W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 1009W Departmental Internet ...... 1010W HEALTH...... 1020W Human Trafficking ...... 1011W Cardiovascular System: Diseases ...... 1020W Life Imprisonment ...... 1011W Departmental Advertising...... 1021W National Offender Management Service: Departmental Sick Leave ...... 1021W Manpower ...... 1011W Health Services: Finance...... 1023W Prisoners Release ...... 1012W Heart Diseases: Health Services ...... 1023W Home Care Services ...... 1023W LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 962W Hospitals: Road Salting and Gritting...... 1024W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 962W Liver Diseases: Health Services...... 1024W Departmental Training ...... 962W NHS: Dental Services ...... 1024W NHS Litigation Authority...... 1024W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 961W NHS: North West ...... 1025W Offenders ...... 961W NHS: Standards...... 1025W Nurses: Manpower...... 1025W OLYMPICS ...... 961W Nurses: Pay ...... 1025W Offenders ...... 961W Nutrition: Health Services ...... 1026W Obesity: Surgery...... 1026W SCOTLAND...... 961W Preventive Medicine...... 1026W Anti-Slavery Day Bill ...... 961W Strokes: Health Services...... 1027W Banking Sector...... 962W Freedom of Information Requests ...... 961W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 979W Globespan Airways Ltd...... 962W Antisocial Behaviour: Coventry ...... 979W Regional News ...... 961W Association of Chief Police Officers ...... 980W Asylum ...... 980W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 1005W Burglary...... 981W Corruption...... 1005W Children: Police Custody...... 983W Departmental Buildings...... 1006W Crime: Convictions ...... 984W Iraq Committee of Inquiry ...... 1006W Crime: Lancashire...... 985W Israel...... 1006W Col. No. Col. No. SOLICITOR-GENERAL—continued WOMEN AND EQUALITY ...... 1003W Offenders ...... 1007W Departmental Internet ...... 1003W Equality and Human Rights Commission: TRANSPORT ...... 966W Databases...... 1003W A338 ...... 966W EU Anti-Discrimination Legislation...... 1003W Aviation: Security...... 966W National Equality Panel...... 1004W Body Searches...... 970W Buses: Concessions ...... 970W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 1027W Buses: Stafford ...... 970W Children: Maintenance ...... 1027W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 970W Departmental Assets...... 1029W Departmental Finance ...... 970W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 1029W Departmental Pay ...... 971W Departmental Freedom of Information ...... 1029W Departmental Surveys...... 972W Departmental Sick Leave ...... 1030W M6 ...... 972W Departmental Taxis ...... 1031W Roads: Snow and Ice...... 972W Electronic Government: Publicity ...... 1031W Rolling Stock ...... 973W Employment: Lone Parents...... 1033W Transport Police...... 973W Employment Schemes ...... 1032W Housing Benefit: Teenage Mothers ...... 1033W TREASURY ...... 1050W Jobcentre Plus: Compensation ...... 1033W Budget ...... 1050W Jobseeker’s Allowance ...... 1034W Car Allowances: NHS...... 1050W Jobseeker’s Allowance: Leeds...... 1034W Cheques ...... 1050W New Deal Schemes: Young People ...... 1035W Excise Duties...... 1051W Social Security Benefits...... 1035W Holiday Accommodation...... 1052W Social Security Benefits: Advisory Services ...... 1035W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 1052W Social Security Benefits: Drugs Misuse ...... 1036W Taxation: Property ...... 1053W Unemployment ...... 1036W Welfare Tax Credits...... 1053W Unemployment: Young People...... 1036W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Wednesday 13 January 2010

Col. No. LEADER OF THE HOUSE...... 7MC Business of the House ...... 7MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Wednesday 20 January 2010

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CONTENTS

Wednesday 13 January 2010

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 669] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Scotland Prime Minister

Withers LLP (Privilege) [Col. 691] Speaker’s Statement

Haiti [Col. 693] Answer to urgent question—(Mr. Douglas Alexander)

United Kingdom Parliamentary Sovereignty [Col. 700] Bill presented, and read the First time

Veterans’ Welfare [Col. 701] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—on a Division, negatived Bill presented, and read the First time

Opposition Day [2nd allotted day] Education, Training and Skills [Col. 704] Motion—(Mr Willetts)—agreed to Amendment—(Mr. Lammy)—agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Energy Security [Col. 754] Motion—(Greg Clark)—on a Division, negatived Amendment—(Edward Miliband)—on a Division, agreed to Motion, as amended, agreed to

Adjournment (February) [Col. 809] Motion—(Mr. Blizzard); Division deferred till Wednesday 20 January

Petitions [Col. 809] [Col. 809]

Sovereignty of Parliament [Col. 811] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall China [Col. 237WH] Insurance Industry [Col. 259WH] Local Newspapers [Col. 266WH] Back to Work Initiative (Wales) [Col. 293WH] IBM Pension Scheme [Col. 300WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statement [Col. 23WS]

Petitions [Col. 17P]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 959W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 7MC]