3960 Questions without Notice [COUNCIL

what steps does the Government intend Legislative Council to take to implement those recommenda­ Wednesday, 2 December 1981 tions, particularly in light of the recently announced proposal to take over the Herald and Weekly Times organization? The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Grim­ The Hon. HAD DON STOREY wade) took the chair at 12.19 p.m. and (Attorney-General) -The Norris com­ read the prayer. mittee recommendations were far reach­ ing and very extensive in terms of the CREDIT BILL steps which may be taken in relation to the print media in this State. Accord­ This Bill was received from the ingly, the Government released the re­ Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. port so everybody would have an oppor­ HADDON STOREY (Attorney-General), tunity to read it, to consider it and to was read a first time. make comment upon it. When the Gov­ ernment is in receipt of views or is in a GOODS (SALES AND LEASES) BILL position to receive views on that report. This Bill was received from the it will do so, but it has made no deter­ 'Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. mination at this stage to implement the HADDON STOREY (Attorney-General), recommendations of that report. Cer­ was read a first time. tainly the Government will look at it and, in looking at it, will take note of CHATTEL .SECURITIES BILL the recently reported proposal referred This Bill was received from the to by Mr Landeryou. Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. HAD DON STOREY (Attorney-General), STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION was read a first time. CHARGES The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western SECONDING READING OF COGNATE Province) -The Minister for Minerals BILLS and Energy will be aware of a case at The Hon. HAD DON STOREY Donald township whereby two con­ (Attorney-General) -By leave, I move: stituents of mine have been told by the That this House authorizes and requires Mr State Electricity Commission that in one President to permit the second readings of the case it will cost $16850, and in the Credit Bill. the Goods (Sales and Leases) Bill. other $14 700, to upgrade State and the Chattel Securities Bill to be moved and debated concurrently. Electricity Commiss'ion lines to their properties, which are town blocks. I ask The motion was agreed to. the Minister, in view of the crippling effect of these charges on development in country towns and throughout the QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE whole of Victoria, what action is he taking to ensure that these charges are CONTROL OF PRINT MEDIA reduced and that people can have some chance of having State Electricity Com­ The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU mission lines connected? (Doutta Galla Province) -Before direct­ ing my question without notice to the If the Minister is undertaking an in­ Attorney-General, on behalf of honour­ quiry into this matter, when will that able members I extend congratulations inquiry be completed? Will honourable to Mr Knowles on his engagement. I ask members be permitted to make sub­ the Attorney-General: In view of the missions to it, and when will the Norris committee recommendations to Minister intervene on behalf of the the Government supporting the estab­ Donald people who are affected in this lishment of an authority to monitor the case? control of the print media in this State The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister with a view to protecting· the public in­ for Minerals and Energy) -As I have terest, what steps have been taken or explained to this House on previous 2 Decem,ber 1981] Questions without Notice 3961

occasions during this sessional period, casions, and will be doing so again, I am this particular aspect of State Electricity far from proud of the industrial rela­ Commission administration is the sub­ tions record in this State. ject of current-review. 1 invite submis­ Honourable members inte.rjecting. sions from honourable members, in­ cluding Mr Dunn, and 1 agree that on The Hon. D. G. CROZIER-It it all the face of it the case he has quoted very well for the Socialist chorus to does seem to indicate that these costs come to life on this issue but, to rub are excessive, although there are in the point, I remind the House of one reasons, of course, for the State current and very pertinent illustration, Electricity Commission imposing such that is, the bans imposed by the costs. I have little personal doubt in Builders Labourers Federation on the that case- Loy Yang project, as a consequence of which work has been undertaken out of The Hon. Joan Coxsedge--How much sequence by contractors at a cost is Alcoa getting out of it? estimated by the State Electricity Com­ The Hon. D. G. CROZIER-I know mission, which has to be borne by the Mrs Cox sedge would prefer that Alcoa, State Electricity Commission and pas­ leI and all other major industrial de­ sed on to customers in the future, of the velopments in the State- order of $4 million a week currently. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. The State's industrial relations clearly Grimwade)-Order! The Minister should can be improved. It is a fact, neverthe­ not respond to an interjection in the less, that the Queensland industrial re­ course of answering a question. By re­ lations record is not as rosy as Sir sponding to an interjection he auto­ William would have his audience and matically gives precedence to the inter­ others believe. jection over the prime question. My understanding is that more days have been lost per thousand employees INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES in the March, June and September quarters in Queensland than in Victoria. The Hon. D. K. HAYWARD (Monash Province) -I direct my ques­ ALCOA OF AUSTRALIA LTD tion to the Minister for Minerals and The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Doutta Galla Energy representing the Minister for Province) -Can the Minister for Miner­ Economic Development. I refer to a als and Energy advise the House statement in this morning's press that whether Alcoa of Australia Ltd has the level of industrial disputes is higher now been provided by the Government in Victoria than in Queensland. Is the and the State Electricity Commission Minister able to advise the House with all the necessary facts on which to whether that statement is correct? base its decision whether to proceed Honourable members interjecting. with the planned Portland s'melter? If The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister not, what is causing the delay and when for Minerals and Energy) -I am aware is it expected that the company will of the statement to which Mr Hayward have all the information it has sought has referred. It was a statement made on which to make its decision? by Sir William Knox, the Queensland The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister Minister for Employment and Labour for Minerals and Energy) -My opinion Relations who, on the occasion of pre­ is that the company has been provided senting the 1981 furniture industry with the relevant information it needs awards to apprentices of the Ithaca to make a decision. I understand the College of Technical and Further Edu­ board of Alcoa has been meeting this cation in Brisbane, made these com­ morning and may still be meeting, but ments. He was inspired to make the it has to be appreciated by the Hous~ somewhat erroneous comparison be­ and I believe it might even be appreci­ tween his State and this State in terms ated by Mr White and other members of industrial relations. As I have in­ of the Opposition-that, in negotiations dicat.ed to the House on previous oc- of this importance and complexity, 3962 Questions without Notice [COUNCIL

clearly there will be matters on which anyone who should not be there and I further clarification is likely to be re­ hope that is clearly understood.' Some quested. members of the Police Force have quite I repeat the Government's intention mistakenly, assumed that ~chool that this development ought to be as­ grounds are public property in respect sisted and will be assisted in any way of which the principal has no authority. the Government believes is reasonable, They are wrong in that assumption. and the company has been advised re­ peatedly of the Government's intention EDUCATION DEPARTMENT in that regard. I am hopeful that the REGIONAL OFFICES development will proceed, because of the enormous consequences and benefits The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo that will flow for the future economic Province) -Is the Minister of Education development of this State. I am aware aware that Education Department re­ that the opinions of honourable mem­ gional offices provide photocopying and bers on the Opposition side of the duplicating facilities to community House are quite contrary to that point groups, for which they charge a fee; is of view and, if Alcoa did decide to re­ he also aware that some regional offices linquish the project and leave, that are using Education Department facili­ would be greeted with great hilarity by ties to produce material of a political members of the Opposition, who have nature for political candidates of the done their level best to torpedo the pro­ Australian Labor Party; if he is aware ject right from the outset. of those activities, does he propose to take any action to discourage the prac­ tice? TRESPASSING ON SCHOOL GROUNDS The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North Education) -Where the facilities of a Eastern Province) -I refer to the Minis­ regional office are under-utilized and the ter of Education concern being express­ time and availability of staff enables it -ed by a number of school principals who to be done, regional offices frequently apparently, under the present law, do co-operate with community groups by not have the right to order persons typing, roneoing or photocopying com­ whom they regard as trespassers on munity service announcements, at cost. school property to leave that property, That is a good development. It is in line because it is regarded as public prop­ with community use of schools and erty. I ask the Minister to examine the other developments of that kind, which problem to ascertain whether changes are encouraged providing they do not in the law are necessary for the protec­ interfere with the direct educational tion of school children, schools and their work for which the regional office is property against people who may be really established. However, the facili­ there without reasonable or lawfui ex­ ties of schools and of regions are not cuse. available for political announcements on behalf of any party, whether the The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of Opposition, the Government, the corner Education) -No change in the law is party or any other party whatsoever, necessary. The law is clear. I will pro­ and ought not to be used for that pur­ vide the honourable member with the pose. answer immediately. School properties are vested in the Minister of Education; REAL ESTATE AGENTS they are not vested in the Crown gener­ ally. They are vested in the Minister The Hon. G. A. S. BUTLER (Thomas­ of Education for educational purposes, town Province)-I direct a question and the Minister of Education delegates without notice to the Attorney-General his authority in respect to the individual in relation to the Estate Agents school to the principal, who is in charge Franchise, Name, Title or Description of that property. The principal is Rules 1981. Owing to the delay by the rightly entitled to order off the property Real ~state Agents Board in approving 2 December 1981] Questions without Notice 3963 new corporations and franchise agree­ as the representative of the Minister for ments, will the Attorney-General give Economic Development. Is the Minister an assurance that estate agents will not aware of an article on the front page of be prosecuted if they are unable to meet yesterday's Herald entitled "Crunch day the date of "I January 1982 for the for car industry", which referred to the alterations? possible abolition of protection for that The Hon. HADDON STOREY industry by 1990? Will the Minister (Attorney-General)-I am not aware of take appropriate steps to ensure that any inability to meet any date of 1 the livelihood of manufacturing and January 1982. occasioned by delays in component workers in Victoria is main­ this area. If the honourable member will tained, with special reference to the give me the details of any specific case decentralized component industry that which concerns him, I will take up the is so important to country areas? I refer matter with the Real Estate Agents particularly to Empire Rubber (Aust.) Board. Pty Ltd in Bendigo, which is a large employer in the region. DESIGNATED LAND The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North for Minerals and Energy) -I am aware Eastern Province)-I direct a question of the article to which Mr Radford to the Minister for Minerals and Energy refers. My understanding is that the in his capacity as the representative of Premier has already made personal rep­ the Minister for Economic Development. resentations to the Prime Minister on The Minister will be aware from his the matter, and I can assure Mr Radford previous office as Minister for State that the importance of the automotive Development, Decentralization and component manufacturing industry is Tourism that much of the land around very much to the fore in those con­ Wodonga is designated land and that siderations, especially the decentrallzed that encumbrance causes concern to the nature of some of those elements of the freehold owners of much of that land. industry, such as the one to which the Now that the Ministerial Council has honourable member referred, the largely accepted the recommendations Empire Rubber (Aust.) Pty Ltd at of the review committee of the corpora­ Bendigo. Because of the importance of tion's activities, what is the justification the industry to the Victorian economy for retaining designation; if there is no and because of the importance of Vic­ justification, will the Minister take toria's decentralization policies to those appropriate steps to have it lifted im­ provincial centres that have Significant mediately? elements of the automotive component The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister industry, the Victorian Government will for Minerals and Energy) -Firstly, 1 can remind the Federal Government that offer a personal point of view to the any precipitate change in either tariffs honourable member. I find the thrust of or quotas will have undesirable effects his proposal attractive. Unless there are on employment and investment in good reasons for. maintaining areas Victoria. I assure the honourable mem­ under designation, I believe there is a ber that the aspirations of provincial strong argument for suggesting that centres and of the employees and such designation should be progress­ investors in those industries affected ively lifted. 1 will discuss the proposal will not be forgotten in those dis­ with the responsible Minister in the cussions. light of Mr Baxter's question, and 1 will provide him with an up-to-date INSTANT TATTS appreciation of the present situation in The Hon. D. E. KENT (Chelsea that regard. Province)-Will the Attorney-General inform the House whether investigations AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY have been conducted into the social The Hon. J. W. S. RADFORD effects of the introduction of "instant (Bendigo Province)-I direct a question money Tatts"? If so, what are the to the Minister for Minerals and Energy results of those investigations, and 3964 Questions without Notice [COUNCIL what measures have been taken to pre­ their salary claim, which was once vent young people being induced to granted and then rescinded, would be gamble away their school lunch moneys heard expeditiously? Is the honourable or mum's change? gentleman aware also of the present concern of high school principals that The Hon. HADDON STOREY something be done by the Government (Attorney-General)-I am unable to to expedite those hearings? Further, answer the honourable member's does the honourable gentleman have question. I am not sure whether the any plans in that regard? question was directed to me as Attorney-General. If it was, I do not ad­ The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of minister the operations of Tattersall Education)-The Government gave an Consultations or the introduction of undertaking at the time of the matter that game. However, I shall refer the of allowances that it would assist prin­ matter to the Treasurer and ask him to cipals and meet them with a view to provide an answer. ensuring that such allowances as were agreed were to be accepted and not ROAD SIGNS protested. The Government fulfilled this The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North bargain. Western Province)-I refer to the The House will be aware that, mean­ Minister of Water Supply, who is the while, in the face of the very large in­ representative in this place of the Min­ creases that were disallowed, teacher ister of Transport, a question concerning unions made quite large claims in turn. the unduly restrictive nature of sign Regrettably, in my view, the tribunal posting policies of the Country Roads decided to hear all the claims together Board. In the province that I represent so that a consistent decision would be and, no doubt in other provinces, tour­ made. Consistency is important and ists and travellers are getting lost going desirable but that has caused the very to places-for instance, people regrettable and considerable on-going travelling to a winery in the province delays to the finalization of the I represent are getting lost all the time. principal's case. Will the honourable gentleman indicate It is now entirely a matter between whether the Government is aware of the parties and the tribunal when these the problem and, if so, whether any cases will be finalized. I might say that inquiry or investigation is being made? under the Education Service Bill a The Hon. GLYN JENKINS (Minister much speedier machinery for settling of Water Supply)-I am aware of the disputes of this kind will become avail­ rather restrictive policies of the Country able. Roads Board on the erection of road signs. I have had difficulties, too, where INSTANT TATTS in at least one or two cases those diffi­ The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley culties were satisfactorily resolved. The Province) -I refer a question to the board has taken the view, quite Minister of Water Supply, who is the properly, that too many signs on the representative of the Treasurer in this roadway or highway divert the attention place. Does the honourable gentleman of drivers and the board therefore seeks recall the publicly-expressed opposition to restrict the number of signs. I shall of the Minister for Employment and take up the matter raised by Mr Wright Training to the introduction of "instant with the Minister of Transport, and ask money Tatts" and "mini-poker machine him to reply to the honourable member games" in 1979? Will the Minister in­ as soon as possible. form the House whether Cabinet has approved the introduction of this gam­ PRINCIPALS' SALARIES CLAIM bling game and, if not, why not? If so, The Hon. J. V. C. GUEST (Monash can he inform the House how this ap­ Province)-Is the Minister of Education proval reconciles with the Government's aware of the concern of school prin­ currently expressed opposition to real cipals who believed six months ago that poker machines? 2 December 1981] Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy 3965 The Hon. GLYN JENKINS (Minister Department of Minerals and Energy and of Water Supply) -I do not recall the hand over to private interests an im­ comments of the Minister for Employ­ portant Public Service vital to the State. ment and Training. The Treasurer made Approval of the proposed discussion the decision in accordance with the pro­ was indicated by the required number visions of the Act applying to Tattersall of members rising in their place, as Consultations, and he has jurisdiction specified in Standing Order No. 53. in that matter. In my view, the exten­ sion proposed is merely a more up-to­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Doutta Galla date method of pur:chasing Tattersall's Province) -I move: tickets and 1 do not think it will have any detrimental community effect. That the House do now adjourn. The State Government is considering POLICE OPERATIONS FOR HOLIDAY dismantling a key section of the Depart­ SEASON ment of Minerals and Energy. The Min­ ister for Minerals and Energy is con­ The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON (Higin­ sidering sacking at least 35 staff in the botham Province) -I question the Min­ department's water drilling division. It ister for Police and Emergency Services is for these reasons that I move the as to the deployment of police services motion. The National Water Well As­ in the coming holiday seasol. What ar­ sociation has been constantly pressur­ rangements have been made to protect ing the Government to wind down its holidaymakers from larrikinism and Drilling Branch and has done so with rowdyism in various holiday resorts? each successive Minister for Minerals and Energy, and appears to have struck The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Minister for Police and Emergency Services)­ a sensitive core. The honourable member is alluding to The plan will have a detrimental effect Operation Salamander which has been on hydrogeological operations in Vic­ mounted by the Police Force over a toria, particularly development of Vic­ period of years. It will recommence toria's immense brown coal resources. this year on 19 December, proceeding It will cost councils and ratepayers at until 31 January. The operation occurs least $5· 7 million a year to maintain on both sides of the bay, on the Brighton the present level of operations if they side and the Bellarine Peninsula side, were to be handed to private enterprise, and has been most successful in cutting yet the department at present has spent down larrikinism and other forms of only $2·2 million on drilling. loutish behaviour. Operation Salaman­ der is conducted in conjunction with There is no proper drilling rig in Vic­ toria capable of replacing or adding to several sections of the Poiice Force, in­ existing groundwater supplies at Port­ cluding the Dog Squad, the Traffic land, Port Fairy, Port CampbelI, Warr­ Operations Group, the Crime Squad, Air nambool, Nelson and Peterborough. Wing and others. It will be of great These groundwater supplies have been benefit to people in holiday resorts. 1 drilled to depths up to 1800 metres. The assure the honourable member that it Drilling Branch provided emergency will be mounted with some degree of crews and steel bores in times of enthusiasm by the force. drought for domestic, town water and stock water supplies. Victoria will lose DRILLING BY DEPARTMENT OF its right to nearly $750000 a year in MINERALS AND ENERGY Federal funding if the Minister for Min­ erals and Energy goes ahead with the The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Doutta Galla plan to offer the function of the de­ Province) -I wish to move the adjourn­ partment to private companies. A total ment of the House for the purpose of of 10 of the 18 permanent drillers in discussing the failure of the Government the department have indicated that they to disclose its negotiations to dismiss would resign if the Minister sacked 35 members of the Drilling Branch of the of their colleagues. Session 1981-136 3966 Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy [COUNCIL

It is interesting to note in this context Department to the Board for the creation of an additional 47 positions mostly in the Ad­ that the National Water Well Associa­ ministration and recently created Energy tion in a letter to the Minister dated 9 Divisions. October 1981 on the groundwater The Board's Manpower Advisory Com­ industry wrote as follows: mittee- It was most enjoyable to meet and lunch with you at our Victorian Convention on 25th I understand that the Manpower September. You will recall that during our Advisory Committee comprises Mr Ken discussions, we spoke at some length as to the Green, the permanent head of the possibilities of the private sector of the water Department of the Premier, Mr lan drilling industry taking up some of the drilling load currently handled by the DME. I referred Baker, the Director of Finance and Dr to certain submissions we had made to the Ron Cullen, the Chairman of the Public Senate Standing Committee on Water Re­ Service Board. The document continues: sources in relation to this and I .promised a then considered the Department's request and copy to you. This is atttached. recommended that the positions could be made This letter was from Stephen Hancock, available by dismissing 35 exempt temporary staff (mostly drilling assistants) from the Federal President of the National Drilling Branch and dismissing further staff Water Well Association and there is a from the Hazardous Materials Division, thereby little pencil note beside his signature­ maintaining the recommended staff ceiling it is not relevant to this debate but it level. ; indicates that Stephen Hancock is a The National••••• Water Well Association member of the Toorak Branch of the (NWWA) have continually pressured the Liberal Party. The last paragraph states: present Government to abandon the Drilling We will ring you within the next few weeks Branch, maintaining that they can and should to set a time to discuss these matters further. be undertaking the drilling presently carried In the meantime, I would like to thank you ou t by the Department. personally for opening our Victorian Con­ This aspect is discussed at length in the vention. memoranda to which I shall refer during What has happened is that the depart­ the debate. That document continues: ment has moved forward with its However, it should be pointed out that there intention of dismantling the drilling is no private drilling rig available in Victoria branch of the Department of Minerals that is capable of replacing or augmenting the existing groundwater supplies for Portland, and Energy but at no stage has it pub­ Port Fairy, Port Campbell, Warrnambool, Nel­ licly disclosed that negotiations have son or Peterborough, nor is there a private rig taken place or have comments been capable of drilling to the deeper aquifers in sought on this proposal from those the Gippsland Basin for stratigraphic and sections of the community that might groundwater information. be affected in one way or another, in­ Portland Waterworks Trust is at present requesting the -Department's assistance in the cluding the towns that are dependent provision of a new production bore to meet the on the activities of the drilling branch. present need and predicted growth should the Alcoa project proceed. This would go ahead It is not surprising that the truck that in any case. is never endingly circling this Parlia­ The effects of the proposal if adopted, on ment dropping off numerous copies of major projects already in hand are spelt out documents from various departments in the attached memoranda and I do not in­ has been at work once again. The most tend to reiterate them here, but I would make the point that an ongoing hydrogeological in­ recent note I have includes a series of vestigation in the Gippsland Basin is critical internal memoranda within the Depart­ to the management and development of ment of Minerals and Energy and which Victoria's brown coal resources. I believe should be made public and The first memorandum I want to in­ will greatly assist the public. Those troduce to the House is a document memoranda have been accompanied by which should have been made public, the following document which states: especially for those groups in the com­ During 1981, the Department of Minerals munity that are affected and which and Energy has been subjected to a compre­ should participate in these proposals. It hensive review by a team of consultants from the Public Service Board. The results of that is from Dr D. Spencer-Jones, Deputy review have not been made known as yet, but Secretary of the Department of Minerals one outcome thus far was a request by the and Energy, to Mr J. L. Knight, Director The Hon. D. R. White 2 December 1981] Drilling by Department oj Minerals and Energy 3967

of Geological Survey. It is dated 6 It is also worth noting the recent November 1981 and it is entitled, "Re_ experience of the Geelong Waterworks port of Manpower Advisory Committee and Sewerage Trust in calling for con­ -influence of suggested cut of 35 per­ tractors to sink bores in the Barwon sonnel from Groundwater Investigation Downs area. No suitable contractors Programme". The memo has been pre­ responded in Victoria to the calling of pared by Mr Carl De Fina, who is the tenders so a West Australian contractor head of the drilling branch and an engi­ was selected for the work. The upshot neer-I belieJJe probably a mechanical is that if the drilling branch is aban­ engineer. He provided the following in­ doned, the State Electricity Commission formation on the implications of dis­ and the Country Roads Board, who have missing 35 of the 'exempt temporary experienced dissatisfaction with private staff from the Drilling Branch and the contractors, will probably resort to em­ memorandum states: ploying their own drillers. Ten of these officers have indicated that they It is also important to point out that would resign rather than having to work as toolmen and labourers on any remaining in this memorandum from Mr J. L. operating rigs. Knight, Director of Geological Survey, to Dr D. Spencer-Jones, Deputy Secre­ The memo goes on: tary of the Department of Minerals and This assumes that qualified drillers will be Energy, the following projects-which prepared to operate in part as labourers on these rigs. It must not be overlooked that the could not be continued under the pro­ drilling branch operations will eventually close posed drilling cuts-are set out and they down under these conditions. include: Some figures are produced with respect Joint DME-SECV study-Latrobe Valley. This to the cost of closing down the branch project requires at least one deep rig. and there are more details in a sub­ The joint Victorian-South Australian investi­ sequent memorandum. gative study of groundwater recharge, storage and through flow in the border region. In the second memorandum from Mr J. L. Knight, Director of Geological Sur­ Clearly this investigation is of national vey to Dr D. Spencer-Jones, Deputy importance and must be finalized so Secretary of the Department of Minerals that the limited groundwater can be and Energy, the following observations shared equitably between the two States are made: and managed as a continuing resource. Drilling rigs, the depth capacities of which Another project which will be under range roughly from 18 to 1800 metres, carry threat as a result of the proposal, if it out different types of drilling for work re­ goes ahead, is: quiring either complete undisturbed cores of the material passed through, or merely cuttings The current Joint Bureau of Mineral Re­ of the various formations, or specific cores sources, New South Wales, South Australian taken at strategic points following geophysical and Victorian study of the Murray Basin, measurements recorded in the bore itself. These although in its initial desk study at present, are made with sophisticated electric logging will require a number of strategically placed devices which ironically are currently being bores to fill gaps in the information. Unless upgraded at a cost of about $150000 to service back-up drilling is guaranteed, I consider that an active drilling organization now threatened Victoria would be unable to continue an with decimation. effective contribution to the study. Despite the proposal by the Depart­ None of those bodies, which are parties ment of Minerals and Energy, the Public to further drilling projects, have been Service Board and the Government to consulted about the proposal that the phase out the drilling branch, this year Minister is making in private with the Treasury has approved a programme at National Water Well Association to dis­ a cost of $150000 to provide electric logging devices. These people are talk­ band the Drilling Branch. None of those ing about decimating the drilling branch other bodies have been consulted, and yet in this year's Budget Treasury the shires or municipalities that depend approved $150000 for an electric logger on the Drilling Branch during drought which will not be of much use if there periods to test and find emergency sup­ is no drilling branch. plies of town water and rural domestic 3968 Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy [COUNCIL

supplies have also not been consulted parts of the Latrobe Valley, such as the about the proposal or the possible effects State Electricity Commission and the it may have on them. Country Roads Board. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-We depend on As is typical of the manner in which them for research, too. this Government operates, it seeks to have the Public Service Board under­ The Hon. D. R. WHITE-As Mr take a review, which is appropriate, but Dunn points out, not only does the Drill­ in undertaking that review, the Public ing Branch carry out research on private Service Board reports to the Executive contractors and enable them to test the and there is no evidence of any input technical capacity of the drilling rig but or involvement by any of the parties it also has experienced geologists at its that I have mentioned. They ought to disposal and drillers who are currently be represented and given the oppor­ available in the private sector to carry tunity of contributing before the de­ out the range of work that the Drilling cision is finally made. Branch undertakes. It is for that purpose that all the A further project that the Drilling memos I have available to me will be Branch is in the process of undertaking placed on record. The Labor Party looks is the groundwater investigation of forward to a contribution from the Gov­ fractured rocks in the Central Highlands ernment and those people who are area that would need to be severely cur­ directly involved in this industry before tailed or abandoned under the proposed any decision is made by the department. scheme. I shall quote again from the I refer again to the memo by Mr J. L. memorandum from Mr J. L. Knight. It Knight, Director of Geological Survey. states: Paragraph 4 of page 4 makes the follow­ However, recent investigation bores in this ing assertion: area .... The Government might well weigh up the and other parts of the State- consequences of the dismissal of 35 men and . . . have revealed some potential for town­ the consequent ill-will generated in other ship, limited irrigation and widespread stock parts of the department against the pos.sible and domestic supplies from this area. benefits gained by the members of the Natlonal Water Well Association, many of whom are The sitting was suspended at 1.2 p.m. not equipped fo~ carrying out the sort of .re­ until 2.4 p.m. search which thiS Department has been domg for many years. The Hon. D. R. WHITE-Before the That is the sort of assertion being made. suspension of the sitting, I reiterated the Attempts are made to put into effect basic points that the Labor Party is the recommendations of the manpower making in this debate namely, that once advisory committee or the Govern­ the Government entertains the proposi­ ment's private negotiations by the Min­ tion to close down a branch or dismiss ister with the National Water Well men, it is appropriate that all the parties Association. Some public attempt should that may be affected directly or indirect­ be made by the Government to have ly ought to be given the opportunity of that proposition adequately tested be­ making some input. I am not talking cause a number of people within the only about the 35 people whose jobs department are contributing already to are at stake or the National Water Well this issue in the form of memos and Association which has every right to they are all coming up with the same make representations and endeavour to information. I shall quote from a memo demonstrate, in cost-benefit analyses, to Mr J. L. Knight, the Director of Geo­ the advantages of having private con­ logical Survey, from a person by the tractors as opposed to a division of the name of Mr Young Nahm, a Korean, Department of Minerals and Energy, who has recently been working in Saudi but also about· groups that indirectly Arabia and who is the acting officer in may benefit and which are certainly in­ charge of the groundwater section. He volved. I refer to all the shires and makes the following observations about municipalities that depend on the water the projects that will be affected by the supply activities of the branch in those decision to close down the branch. In 2 December 1981) Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy 3969 relation to project 101, the Latrobe Val­ Many of these bores have to be ley Groundwater Investigation, the described as investigative and research memo states: type projects. They are not the sorts of This is a joint project involving the DME projects that are normal commercially and SEC. The objective of the investigation viable projects. They are not the sorts is to understand the hydrogeology of the of proJects that private businesses Latrobe Group aquifer system in relation to the brown coal open-cut mining. The project will would want to commission or that provide the vital information on dewatering shires or individual farmers could operation which is the essential work in win­ normally afford in their own right. Some ning brown coal. About ten deep bores with of them would have to be commissioned an average depth of 800 m are required over the next three years as ·part of Stage II in the by the department if they were to con­ investigation. Also twentr bores of intermed­ tinue, and to be financed by the Govern­ iate depth (200 m) wit be required in the ment at far greater cost. basalt area to investigate the hydrogeology of the intake area. The next project referred to is No. 301-BMR-State, Murray Basin hydro­ The Labor Party wants to know what geological project which is described as will happen to the project if the pro­ follows: posed dewatering takes place. Mr This is a joint project between BMR and Young Nahm also referred to project States sharin~ the Murray Basin (Victoria. 102, Boisdale Formation Aquifer investi­ South Austraba and New South Wales). The gation. The memo states: objective of the study is to define the hydro­ geology of the entire Murray basin unencum­ The objective of the investigation is to bered by State borders. This project commenced assess the extent of the Boisdale Formation in 1980 and was planned to last five years. aquifer system and its hydraulic characteris­ The present stage of the project is compila­ tics. This aquifer system is one of the most tion of the existing data. From late 1982 a important in Victoria and is being extensively number of bores should be drilled to fill gaps used throughout the East Gippsland area for in the existing information. Drilling tests to town supply ( especially Sale). irrigation and obtain· essential hydrogeological information is stock supplies. Existing unavailability of drill vital for this interstate joint project. Without rigs has slowed drilling progress on this pro­ the drilling programme this project will be ject. This project requires twenty intermediate completed fruitlessly. depth bores to be drilled over the next three years to evaluate aquifer characteristics by Without commenting on the grammar, pumping tests. because, as I said, Mr Young Nahm is In each case the only legitimate of Korean extraction, it is important to response can be for the National Water point out that there is no 'evidence of the Well Association or any body interested Public. Service Board or the Government in taking over this function to indicate making any attempts to speak to the what would happen to that project and Governments of South Australia and to others that Mr Young Nahm mentions New South Wales who are jointly parti­ in his memorandum. cipating in this project to determine what would happen if the drilling The third project is No. 201-Hydro­ branch staff was cut down. geology of the fractured rocks of the Project No. 302-Hydrogeological in­ Highlands, and the memorandum reads: vestigation of the Riverine Plain, The project is intended to investigate the northern Victoria, is described as occurrence of groundwater in the pre~ertiary fractured rocks of the Highlands. In Victoria, follows: these constitute approximately one-third of the This is a salinity project carried out by area of the State and form the southern ex­ Shepparton Office staff. The objective of the tremi1ty of the mountain chain extending along investigation is to understand that hydro­ the east coast of Australia. Although drilling geology of the aquifer system in relation to for groundwater in the highlands has been the land salting problems in northern Victoria. carried out in the past, no ordered investiga­ tion of the groundwater of these rocks has yet Information obtained from test drilling is been attempted. It is now considered of great essential to this project. Twenty-five test bores value for stock and domestic purposes at all are required in 1982 and 1983. A number of times and is often potable. Their value in these bores will be pump tested. drought is almost inestimable. A diamond rig No one in the House would under­ is required on a full time basis in order to estimate the significance of the salin­ provide core for interpretation of lithology and permeable structure and these holes will con­ ity problem in northern Victoria, of tinue to be used as observation bores. attempts to assess the quality of the 3970 Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy [COUNCIL water in the underground tables and of substantially reduced because the con­ the water that is going into the River tractors' experience in investigation pro­ Murray system and the effect that is jects is likely to be very limited. This having on salinity in the area, and observation is based on the experience whether the quality of the water in the of people in the department with the Shepparton area will remain for some work of private contractors. time suitable to enable it to go into It is also clear that the cost of pro­ the River Murray system. ducing the work carried out by private The next project referred to is project contractors is significantly in excess of No. 303, groundwater-dryland salting that which would be undertaken by the investigation of highland margin, cen­ department. If the Manpower Advisory tral Victoria. This is another jOint pro­ Committee's recommendations were ject. Mr Young Nahm mentions a fur­ adopted, it would mean that not only ther project, No. 304, which. is a joint would 35 positions be declared vacant, study on a management proposal for but of the eighteen drillers left, approxi­ groundwater extraction in the border mately half would almost certainly zone of South Australia and Victoria. leave. A number of other projects are men­ Information has been made available tioned, including evaporation disposal to us about the cost-benefit study under­ sites at Lake Tyrrell and the plains of taken in respect of some of those pro­ that area, and the Gellibrand River jects that I have mentioned and the ground water investigations. effects that would occur if the staff of the Drilling Branch is cut down. One of Seven of the nine projects which re­ the people that I quoted earlier, Mr Carl quire drilling would have to be revised De Fina, who is the head of the Drilling and/or completely abandoned if the Branch, has carried out a comparison recommendations of the Manpower Ad­ of costs using contractors for equivalent visory Committee proceed in the fashion work. He estimates that for the Drilling that the Government currently intends Branch the allocation required to operate as a result of a report to the Executive all rigs for the year 1981 would be without a proper input by any of the $1 839600, excluding the cost of salaried parties affected. Of the other seven pro­ officers, which would be $180400, mak­ jects which require investigative drill­ ing a total of $2 020 000. ing, three would need to be abandoned because they rely heavily on test drilling For the same work in 1981, he esti­ data. In his memorandum MrYoung mates that the cost of hiring private Nahm investigates the effect of cutting contractors to keep all the fourteen back on the staff of the drilling branch drills in the area working, plus asso­ on this project. He goes on to talk ciated costs, would be $5 728 420. Is about the issue in a different context, this part of the new directions policy? and comments on using private drilling It means that the cost to the State of contractors. carrying out the same operations would be an additional $3·7 million. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Before the Public Service Board' Man­ Grimwade)-Order! Mr White has relied power Advisory Committee proceeds heavily on reading from a memorandum. with these investigations, it ought to He has now given details of a number take into account the work that has of different jobs. He has dwelt long been done on this issue by Mr Carl enough on reading from those papers De 'Fina and other members of the in front of him. Perhaps he would like department and determine whether the now to make his contribution to the evidence they have presented is correct. debate in his words rather than reading other people's words. If it is correct, that places significant reservations on the suggestion that has The Hon. D. R. WHITE-Thank you been taken up by the Government. On for your guidance, Mr President. The this occasion we have a particularly quality of the services and work from pliant Minister who is very sensitive private drilling contractors would be to the matters being put forward by 2 December 1981] Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy 3971 the National Water Well Association. bores between 500 feet and 1000 feet, the Because of the widespread concern department would probably not be inter­ within the department an additional in­ ested in bores over 1000 feet would, in general, be ternal memorandum was sent to the drilled by the department, mainly because Minister by Mr A. F. Cullen, the assist­ of the expertise of the drilling team and ant secretary. The memorandum stated: the hydrogeological "back-up" coupled with the internal financial arrangements It is hardly a task to be completed on an that can be made between State Rivers "ad hoc" basis~perhaps relying on the faulty and Water Supply Commission, the Water impressions of individuals or organizations. To Trusts and the department. accede to the request would sacrifice the sub­ stance of resource assessment programmes That is the basis of a policy; in the past, (the substantial and fundamental role of the the private contractors would be given Drilling Branch in the work of the Geological some form of preferential treatment. It Survey not only in groundwater investigations does not mean to say that the Drilling but in mineral resource studies, sedimentary basin investigations, and geological mapping. Branch could not compete for tenders Engineering geology projects, and investiga­ from water trusts and sewerage author­ tions that are carried out as an adjunct to ities for bores of only 500 feet or less planning schemes) for the somewhat ephem­ or bores between 500 and 1000 feet. eral and costly "window-dressing" schemes proposed ... The fact is that the Drilling Branch could probably carry out this work . . . The Commonweal th for many years more economically and efficiently but has provided financial assistance to the States to undertake water resources investigation and chose to concentrate skills on more dif­ development. This recognizes the fundamental ficult projects where it was clear that importance of the water resources, particularly the branch had unique skills and experi­ the groundwater component, as vital for ence not immediately available within both the continued existence and growth and development .in the national interest. In the the National Water Well Association. current financial year the allocation to Vic­ For those reasons the branch should toria is $1 250000 ... continue. I revert to the original prin­ Obviously if the drilling programme is ciple. The propositions came forward wound down and this task is under­ from the Manpower Advisory Commit­ taken by private contractors, the Fed­ tee and more recently from the direct eral assistance for these projects will no representations of the National Water longer exist. The proposal by the Nat­ Well Association which wants to con­ ional Water WeB Association has been tinue the argument to produce an exten­ put to a succession of Ministers over sion of the private contract business the time. That being the case, it is inter­ and phase out the Drilling Branch. This esting to note that the previous Min­ would leave the private contractors to ister, Mr Balfour, and the current Min­ their own resources without any com­ ister, Mr Lieberman, formed a policy on petition from a public utility that pos­ the relationship between the depart­ sesses unique skills. If that were to be ment and the National Water Well Asso­ the case, all the parties who are ciation. either indirectly or directly affected should have had the opportunity of con­ This is spelt out again in the memor­ tributing when the representations were andum to the Minister where it states made. People such as Stephen Han­ that, as a matter of policy, there is no cock, the Federal President of the Nat­ intention of engaging in undesirable ional Water Well Association, had pri­ competition with private drilling con­ vate and social conversations on the tractors. The memorandum continues: matter and these were not backed up . . . it was pOinted out, that this should not by an opportunity for all parties in­ be interpreted to mean that the department volved from Portland to Gippsland and would not respond to requests from water from the River Murray basin and all trusts and other authorities to undertake drill­ the various shires and water trusts to ing in appropriate cases participate. bores less than 500 feet will not be drilled hoc for Government or semi government auth­ This is ad policy-making behind orities, except in exceptional circum­ closed doors by an Executive who is stances remote and out of touch with the needs 3972 Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy [COUNCIL and aspirations of the community. The the Manpower Advisory Committee and phasing out of the Drilling Branch, the Government make a unilateral deci­ which contains unique skills that would sion without genuine public participa­ be lost to the community, should not tion. Because of this type of action, the come about in this way. For those Government is on the nose and on the reasons, the Labor Party views with decline. There is no doubt that the ad­ concern the failure of the Government journment motion should be carried. to disclose its negotiations to dismiss members of the Drilling Branch of the The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister Department of Minerals and Energy. for Minerals and Energy) -I indicate at The Labor Party is also concerned that the outset that in a few minutes I shall officers of departments such as the leave the Chamber to deputize for the Department of Minerals and Energy Premier on an important function in the consider that documents have to be put metropolitan area some distance from on the hacks of trucks where they might Parliament House. It will not take long eventually fall into the hands of the to reply to the rather long-winded attack Labor Party. on the Government by Mr White. The motion, which has taken up the time of It is also clear that if the truck had the House for nearly an hour, speaks not deposited its contents in the about the failure of the Government to Labor Party caucus room, next week disclose its negotiations to dismiss it would have deposited the documents members of the Drilling Branch of the in the National Party room. That is no Department of Minerals and Energy. I way for the bureaucracy and this stress the words "disclose its negotia­ Government to conduct business. The tions to dismiss". officers of the department and the com­ munity generally should be given the Any reasonable person would auto­ opportunity of frankly and openly par­ matically conclude from reading those tiCipating in a discussion on this major words that the negotiations to dismiss issue. If the shires, municipalities and have been concluded and that the deci­ water trusts were given the opportunity sion to dismiss had been made. I am sure of participating in these decisions, this honourable members will be relieved to type of conduct would never be neces­ learn that I can summarize the situation. sary. This tedious and protracted debate If the Freedom of Information Act had should not continue any further. The been implemented by now it would not facts are that the Manpower Advis~ry have happened. It is the intention of the Committee made a suggestion in Government to introduce the Act but response to representations from me not proclaim it until after the election. and the department for augmentation in I suppose the reason is obvious. The certain areas. I shall detail the addi­ Liberal Party will want to view docu­ tional functions: Administration; energy, ments when the Labor Party is in oil and gas; geological survey; mining Government. and hazardous materials-in total a re­ quest for an additional 44 staff mem­ The Hon. D. G. Crozier-Will they be bers. The staff ceiling currently is 353, made available? but of course that mechanism does not The Hon. D. R. WHITE-Of course find much favour with honourable mem­ they will be made available, The Labor bers opposite. One must hark back to Party will introduce a completely the heady days of 1972 to 1975 when different style of government. I am not not only did the Federal bureaucracy just talking about the fate of 35 drillers. bloom and take off but also it became If the Labor Party were in Govern­ the pacesetter for wages and working ment, the shires, municipalities and conditions. The House heard an echo all people involved would have been of that period from the so-called shadow aware that the scheme was afoot. The Minister not so long ago. shires and municipalities should be given the opportunity of participat­ The Hon. H. M. Hamilton-He let the ing before the Public Service Board, cat out of the bag. 2 December 1981] Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy 3973 The Hon. D. G. CROZIER-Indeed he the department operates. Those guide­ did, but not for the first time, and, lines are reasonable and it will be my I suspect, not for the last time. In a intention to continue those guidelines revealing statement he enthusiastically unless and until circumstances alter. confirmed that a ,Lab or Government The debate could .have been totally would automatically bring in and imple­ aborted, as it should have been, ment a 35-hour week for all public serv­ simply by the basic mechanism of ants. I do not doubt that that would asking me, as the responsible Minister, also be coupled with the lifting of staff whether the recommendation of the ceilings. For a good reason, there are Manpower Advisory Committee-not of staff ceilings in the State Public Service, the National Water Well Association­ and, from time to time, every depart­ would be adopted. The recommenda­ ment has reason to want to increase tion has been made and it has been its staff ceiling. considered. A decision has been made and that particular proposal has been In response to this particular pro­ rejected. posal, the Manpower Advisory Commit­ tee suggested that 35 positions in the The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western drilling branch could be made redundant. Province) -During the Minister'S This proposal was naturally considered speech, I interjected and asked about by me and by my department and the the time in which that decision was proposal has been rejected. A decision made, and the Minister did not respond has been made and the 35 exempt per­ to the interjection, as you would agree, sonnel proposed for dismissal will not Mr President, he should not. However, it be dismissed for this reason: It is agreed does have some bearing on the debate. that there are functions in the drilling I was horrified, like other honourable field in Victoria that are best performed members of the National Party, when it by this branch. Of the fourteen rigs, was suggested to the House that the two are of the heavy duty type. One drilling branch of the Department of of those rigs is the only one in the Minerals and Energy could be handed State on a permanent basis capable of over to private enterprise and that the boring to 6000 feet. The other rig staff working in that area of responsi­ has a capacity depth of approximately bility could be dismissed. 4000 feet and, although from time to time there are other large rigs that are The Hon. R. J. Long-What is so capable of similar performances, they horrific about that? are not readily available. That is one The Hon. B. P. DUNN-Mr Long good reason for maintaining a functional interjects and asks "What is so horrific drilling branch under the Department of about that?". Mr Long is a member of a Minerals and Energy, with a credibility committee that has played an important of performance. There are other reasons part in recommending a saline disposal and, although I am supportive, as indeed programme, for example, the mineral is the Government, of private enterprise reserve basins scheme. Yet Mr Long wherever possible and not usurping a fails to recognize the importance of ex­ private enterprise function or competing ploratory research and the work that is with it unnecessarily, there are never­ carried out by the drilling 'branch of the theless functions that are best perform­ Department of Minerals and Energy. ed in a complementary way, as is the drilling function of the Department of The drilling branch operates in an Minerals and Energy, which is presently area that has been the subject of a deep performing in a complementary way to inquiry by that committee that Mr Long the activities of private enterprise. "It is is a member of. That committee has not simply a substitution of the private received considerable evidence and enterprise drilling capacity. material from the Department of Minerals and Energy through the work The National Water Well Association carried out by the drilling branch. I has been advised-as Mr White indi­ intend to touch upon some of those pro­ cated-of the guidelines under which grammes during my comments. 3974 Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy [COUNCIL Mr White's motion is somewhat A lot of this work will be undertaken poorly worded because he is asking the through the Drilling Branch of the De­ House to decide on the Government's partment of Minerals and Energy. failure to disclose its negotiations to I have had cause, during the investi­ dismiss these employees of the drilling gations I am carrying out in the elec­ branch. The matter could well have been torate I represent in north-western Vic­ raised in a number of other debates, for toria, to contact the department to example, the debate on the Address-in­ obtain information about bores put down Reply or on the Budget Bill. If the House by the department in that region and to is going to be adjourned on this premise, gain information as to the groundwater it will face difficulty in passing Govern­ there and other information the depart­ ment business. I am responsible for edu­ ment has been able to obtain through cation matters for the National Party. exploratory drilling. That has been of Negotiations are taking place on certain considerable assistance to me and the aspects of the Education Department, people I represent. for instance, the Audio-Visual Resource Centre. That matter could be the sUlb­ I commend the division for the ject of an adjournment debate, as could courtesy it has shown and the prompt­ similar matters, for each day of sitting. ness with which it has dealt with in­ This matter has been a vehicle for Mr quiries. I cannot speak too highly of White and, by using the issue, he has the fact that the division has been pre­ done the Parliament a service,· but the pared to - help very quickly. The in­ National Party will be hard pressed to formation provided has been of great support the actual details of the motion. benefit. I wholeheartedly agree that the A lot of work is going on in the drilling branch should be retained. If north-western part of Victoria because, anything, the branch needs to be ex­ as is now recognized, the groundwater panded. The branch is carrying out work in Victoria from the Great Dividing that is vital to Victoria. In the report of Range flows underground in a north­ the Department of Minerals and Energy westerly direction from the Victoria­ on the groundwater investigation pro­ South Australia border across the State gramme 1980, in the introduction, the towards the River Murray. It is gen­ Minister states: erally recognized and accepted that groundwater moves in that direction. Major studies occurred in the Murray Basin, where an overall understanding of the hydro­ That is why those areas are under geology is sought, in conjunction with Com­ the most severe pressure from rising monwealth, South Australian, and New South groundwater tables. Wales government departments; in the Riverina, where extensive salinity investigations The Soil Conservation Authority, were conducted; in the Latrobe Valley, where representatives of which I met some an assessment of the dewatering of the brown weeks ago, pointed out to me that in coal open-cuts is being undertaken with the SEC; in the Gellibrand River region, where the some parts of that area dryland salting assessment of additional water supplies for the is increasing at the rate of 6 per cent City of Geelong have taken place; and in the per year but overall in the Mallee region Westernport Basin, where continuing studies there is an increase of 2 per cent. In into the overdraft and recharge of aquifers one area they call the Hopetoun land have led to a major report being prepared. system which runs through Rainbow, The Minister for Minerals and Energy Hopetoun, Sea Lake and Manangatang, then says: it is increasing at the rate of 6 per cent, I commend this report to you in the know­ which is alarming. A programme is ledge that the Victorian Government, through being looked at closely by the Depart­ its agencies, is pursuing a resolute and re­ sponsible program to conserve and utilise our ment of Minerals and Energy. valuable resources of groundwater. More important is the work around I commend the honourable gentleman Lake Tyrrell and other areas proposed for that statement because it recognizes as evaporative basins. At present a pro­ the importance of researching something ject is being undertaken titled, "Salt that we really know very little about. lakes in north-western Victoria". It is The Hon. B. P. Dunn 2 December 1981] Drilling by Department of Minerals and Energy 3975 a joint programme being undertaken by The report again states that additional the Department of Minerals and Energy work will include drilling. That is the and the State Rivers and Water Supply story right through this report on the Commission in the Mallee region. The groundwater investigation programme aims of the investigation are: that is being undertaken in Victoria. It To evaluate the interaction below salt lakes points to the fact that more bores will and the groundwater system in the semi-arid need to be sunk. The work of the zone, with particular reference to their use Department of Minerals and Energy will for the disposal of saline water and the harvesting of evaporates. need to be expanded to provide this additional information. One of the aims is the: determination of the effect, on the groundwater The National Party is strongly com­ system, of adding saline irrigation effluent to mitted towards maintaining the drilling Lake Tyrrell. branch of the Department of Minerals The report on the progress of those in­ and Energy in total and ensuring that it vestigations recognizes that: receives adequate support. Its work The depressions are seen to be the result of goes further than the research and a delicately balanced interaction with the monitoring I have outlined as a result groundwater system. of that report. I go further into the The report also states: drilling of bores in times of drought. In the Lake Tyrrell area six observation and pumping-test bores were drilled to determine In 1978-79 the department undertook how the addition of saline effluent to Lake the drilling of bores at numerous loca­ Tyrrell would affect the groundwater system. tions in areas experiencing difficulties, They are controlled by the division and because of drought and failing water are being monitored jointly by the State supplies, to maintain adequate supplies Rivers and Water Supply Commission to the towns and people they normally and the Department of Minerals and serve. Who do people fall upon in that Energy. Those bores could well provide situation? They call on the Government, the information required to prove that the department and the Drilling Branch the addition of saline water into those of the Department of Minerals and lakes would be detrimental to the whole Energy. There too is an important groundwater system in the area. reason why the Government must have More importantly, when one looks at the capacity to move with ·its own that project to see if further action is division and be able to carry out this proposed, the report states that further work. field reconnaissance, drilling and pump With those few comments, members testing will take place, that there will be of the National Party commend the a need for the installation of additional Minister for Minerals and Energy for bores, and that: recognizing the need for this division. In the longer term, installation of additional We were deeply concerned at the sug­ bores (shallow and deep) to define areas of gestion put forward by Mr White that potential salinisation hazard in the vicinity of the Government may have intended to the lake. dismantle the branch. Opportunities There is clearly a need for this division probably existed to raise the matter to be strongly protected by the Minister through another debate, but perhaps for Minerals and Energy and if any­ Mr White has done the House a service thing, to have its resources expanded to by raising the matter now. meet those commitments adequately. The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-He al­ In a project titled, "BMR-State, Murray Basin hydrogeological project," ways does. which is another project, it is again The Hon. B. P. DUNN-It is- im­ stated that: portant that these issues come before There is a complex interaction between the House. Honourable mem'bers could groundwater and surface water which may be raise one every day referring to the beneficial, as in recharge areas in some parts of the basin, or harmful as in areas of saline whole range of Government depart­ groundwater discharge to rivers. ments. I quoted education as one. There 3976 Petitions [COUNCIL is a considerable restructuring going on. PETITIONS Each division is under scrutiny. If the Electricity tariffs Government is going to be asked to dis­ close negotiations on all of those, and The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne if the House is going to be asked to North Province) presented a petition adjourn because of the failure to dis­ from certain citizens of Victoria pray­ close all negotiations, honourable mem­ Ing that the House take immediate bers will be here for a long time. The action to reject the recently announced debate today has been worthwhile in State Electricity Commission tariff in­ establishing the importance of the ~rea~es ~nd to institute a wide-ranging Drilling Branch of the Department of Inquiry lOto the management and poli­ Minerals and Energy. cies of the commission. He stated that the petition was respectfully worded, in The House divided on the motion order, and bore 84 signatures. (the Hon. F. S. Grimwade in the chair). It was ordered that the petition be Ayes .. 10 laid on the table. Noes. . 27 Majority against the Daylight saving motion 17 The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North Western Province) presented a petition AYES ~rom certain citizens of Victoria pray- Mr Butler Mr Walker 109 that a referendum on daylight sav­ Mr Kennedy Mr White Mr Kent ing be held in conjunction with the next Mr Landeryou Tellers: State elections. He stated that the peti­ Mr Mackenzie Mrs Coxsedge tion was respectfully worded, in order, Mr Sgro Mr Eddy and bore 2931 signatures. NOES It was ordered that the petition be Mr Baxter Mr Houghton laid on the table. Mrs Baylor Mr Hunt Mr Block Mr Jenkins Mr Bubb Mr Lawson STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE Mr Campbell Mr Loni Report on private Bill procedure Mr Chamberlain Mr Rad ord Mr Dunn Mr Stacey The Hon. W. M. CAMPBELL (East Mr Evans Mr Storey Yarra Province), on behalf of the Presi­ Dr Foley Mr Taylor Mr Granter Mr Ward dent, presented a report from the Stand­ Mr Guest Mr Wright ing Orders Committee on private Bill Mr Hamilton Tellers: procedure. Mr Hauser Mr Reid Mr Hayward Mr Saltmarsh It was ordered that the report be laid on the table and be printed. PAIR Mr Thomas Mr Crozier PAPERS HEALTH (CONSULTATIVE COUNCIL The following papers, pursuant to the ON MATERNAL AND PERINATAL directions of several Acts of Parliament, MORTALITY AND MORBIDITY) BILL were laid on the table by the Clerk: The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON (Min­ Co-operative Housing Societi~s-Report of the ister for Conservation), by leave, Registrar for the year 1978-79. Co-operative Societies-Report of the Registrar moved for leave to bring in a Bill to for the year 1978-79. amend the Health Act 1958 to establish Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board a Consultative Council on Maternal and -Report and statement of accounts for the Perinatal mortality and morbidity and year 1980-81. for other purposes. Minerals and Energy-Report of the Depart­ The motion was agreed to. ment for the year 1980. State Development-Report of the Department The Bill was brought in and read a of State D~velopment, Decentralization and first time. Tourism for the year 1980-81. 2 December 1981] Serpell Joint Schools Bill 3977

On the motion of the Hon. E. H. Planning proceeded on the basis of WALKER (Melbourne Province) , it was the Education (Further Amendment) ordered that the reports be taken into Act 1978, which all parties believed consideration on the next day of meet­ would enable the project to proceed to ing. construction and completion. However, after planning had reached an advanced SERPELL JOINT SCHOOLS BILL stage, and the department's relocatables were installed on the church's land, the The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of suggestion was first raised that the con­ of Education) -I move: cept of shared ownership inherent in the That this Bill be now read a second time. scheme, which differs from merely joint Its purpose is to enable the establish­ usage and joint funding, was not ment and the joint ownership and oper­ covered by that legislation. ation of a school facility on a jointly­ funded basis. This facility will be used The steering committee re-examined by the SerpelI Primary School, a Cath­ both the philosophy of the project and olic primary school, and the local com­ the plans, and remained convinced that munity. the concept of joint ownership, with all parties bearing equal status in control The project had its beginning in 1976, and decision-making, and with all when the department, due to planning parties bearing responsibility for initial and development changes in the area, capital and recurrent management costs, was obliged to find an alternative site was both appropriate and crucial to the for one which it had previously reserved success of the proposal. in the area for a primary school. This occurred at the time when the depart­ This Bill provides for the validation ment had just embarked on a number of and approval of the agreement appear­ co-operative undertakings, with a pro­ ing as a schedule to the Bill, which has gramme of works known as "Operation now been executed between the State, Outreach". the Roman Catholic Trusts Corporation for the Diocese of Melbourne, the The assistance of the local community Mayor, councillors and citizens of the was sought to solve the problem of an City of Doncaster and Templestowe, alternative school site, and a meeting and Serpell Community Pty Ltd. was held in March 1977, at which the municipal council, the local Catholic The Bill provides that the Minister of parish, the local community and the Education, as agent for the State, takes Education Department were represent­ up 50 per cent of the shareholding of ed. At that meeting, it was resolved that: the company expressly established to own and manage the property, in "the development of the school and com­ munity facilities will be jOintly planned by a accordance with the agreement. It also steering committee representing the Catholic provides that the Minister exercise his authorities. the State Education Department responsibility for his share of the and the City of Doncaster and Templestowe ownership and operation of the property representing community interests." by the appointment of a director or A steering committee was immediately directors of the company, and by the convened, and has worked assiduously appointment of two members of the over the ensuing period towards its ob­ committee of management. jective, culminating in this Bill. The financial arrangements for the The Education Department purchased sharing of costs, both capital and land adjoining that already owned by recurrent, have been based upon the the municipal council and the Catholic unique circumstances pertaining to the Church. The proposal was that portion particular project and the degree of of the land at the junction of the three participation and involvement of the properties be brought together and several parties, including the respective jointly owned, and that a building be provision of land by them, and does not, constructed on this parcel of land on a therefore, operate as a precedent for jointly funded, jointly owned basis. future cases where joint arrangements 3978 Serpell Joint Schools Bill [COUNCIL

may be proposed. Any case will be dealt survive teething troubles due to insufficient care of planning or adequate discipline when with on the basis of its own particular enunciating Agreements. Such is meant not circumstances. as criticism but as observation. In the case There is widespread awareness of the of the Serpell Joint Schools project the coun­ cil is conscious that there was opportunity to project throughout Australia, and its achieve the dignity of full recognition as a concept of shared ownership, funding partner-an equal ~rtner-in the task from and management holds significance for its conception and, with that realization, has Government and non-Government edu­ been prepared to more squarely face its obliga­ tions. In both the philosophy and in the mag­ cational building agencies alike. In nitude of the total property involvement, the recent reports conveyed to me from the project must serve as an important contribu­ parties who were represented on the tion to social development of this State. I, per­ steering committee, I have become sonally, and the council of this municipality take great pride in the fact that, at long last, aware of the enthusiasm and resolve of the goal is about to be realized. the various participants, and they are convinced of the fare-reaching influence I should also recognize that the local the project will have upon the lives of member has publicly expressed full sup­ the children and the community who port and great praise for the project, and will be served by the facility. has pressed for the earliest possible completion of the agreement, and pre­ The local parish priest, Father Charles sentation of this Bill. McCann, has expressed the belief that the opportunity to participate in the Given carriage of this Bill, it is the development of the project has lbeen expectation of all parties to the agree­ "providential". He has written to my ment that the building will commence colleague, the Minister of Educational construction during 1982, and that the Services, saying: schools will come into operation­ jointly with other community activities Cl ••• it has led to the full co-operation of three sections of the community. It has brought -in 1983. Plans of the proposed build­ them together to work with a common ing have been placed in the Library for goal in mind. Though the sections may have the inform·ation of honourable members, had respect for each other, they do not and I will be happy to make any other normally work with a great deal of openness, one to the other-quite often because there is documents concerned with the· project little call for it to happen. In this exercise, available upon request. there has developed deep mutual respect, I congratulate all those who have understanding and unity." been concerned with the project. It is a He has further pointed out that there commendable exercise in community co­ has been eno~mous effort on the part of operation. I, therefore, commend the Bill persons of talent and high standing, and to the House. that their contribution and continuing The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU commitment augur well for the success (Doutta Galla Province) -It is some of the project. years ago since the Leader of the Gov­ In like vein, the Town Clerk of the ernment and I debated the concept of City of Doncaster and Templestowe, the department joining with other or­ Mr George Morton, has expressed the ganizations and other municipalities on great pride he takes in the fact that it joint usage. This is an example of that will be that city which participates in type of approach and co-operation and, the venture. I quote him: to that extent, I join with him and con­ Whilst the City of Doncaster and Temple­ gratulate all those who have been con­ stowe, like many of the neighbouring muni­ cerned with the concept and the plan cipalities, has been pleased to co-operate in a and development associated with the number of other ventures with the Education Department for the shared use of facilities, our project. It· is not only a commendable attitudes have sometimes been tentative and exercise in community co-operation, but not without suspicion concerning the other it is another example of what can be parties. Negotiations were not always able to achieved through mutual respect and overcome the uncertainty as to whom the greater benefit would go and the projects have recognition of multi-use facilities that sometimes had to weather periods of uncer­ can be made available from the one tainty and lack of direction as they sought to traditional institution within our society. The Hon. A. J. Hunt 2 December 1981] Serpell Joint Schools Bill 3979

My party offers no opposition to this division in school numbers. It may be Bill, and urges the Government to pro­ that each school is too small to qualify ceed to the third reading as soon as for specialist services, but they may be possible. able to share not only facilities, with The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western which this Bill deals, but also specialist Province) -The Bill involves an import­ services. A whole range of personnel ant and relatively new concept, which in could be of great assistance in carrying the past the National Party has strongly out this sort of work. supported, namely, the use of joint Members of the National Party com­ facilities. In the case of Government pliment the people involved in this con­ schools, primary schools and high cept. It is a great idea. It was not so schools have been able to share com­ long ago that the general attitude was mon campuses and facilities such as that anything that was built for a school libraries, sporting complexes and so on. was the property of that school and it That has been of great benefit. How­ should be held tightly locked during ever, this measure goes one step further; vacation periods and at week-ends, and It involves the joint use of facilities be­ that it was exclusively for use by the tween Government and non-Government school and the students at the school. schools. That is an important new con­ cept, which created some controversy The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Between in the minds of certain people. Mem­ 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. bers of the National Party believe it is The Hon. B. P. DUNN-That is right. a sensible use of resources. Where non­ We have now moved away from that Government schools are established and and the community is using the mas­ are operating and are in a location in sive capital investment in facilities at which they can share facilities and schools. Technical wings are being used services wth Government schools, it is for night classes; sporting complexes probably wise planning that they should. are used for a range of activities; art The Minister has made it clear that centres are used for pottery classes; there is a safeguard in the Bill. Each assembly halls are used for social func­ new case will be dealt with on its merits tions, such as weddings and so on. That and this will not be regarded as a pre­ is good. Members of the National Party cedent that can be adopted on a large believe that to be a sound use of these scale. However, it will no doubt lead facilities. to further approaches being made to If it is possible for schools to share the Government. a common campus, libraries and ad­ Victoria faces an interesting situation ministrative facilities, such as proposed in the development of non-Government by the Bill, it ought to be done. It is a schools. In the area I represent and good concept. Members of the National right throughout the State there is a Party will certainly be watching the pro­ rapid growth in the number of non­ ject at the Serpell Joint Schools with a Government schools that are being great deal of interest. As I said, each constructed and made available for the case will have to be dealt with on its student community. It will be necessary merits, but I reiterate that we wish to examine the specialist resources avail­ this project well. able to the individual schools and the The motion was agreed to. effect of the proliferation of schools and the division of school services on The Bill was read a second time. the provision of services to particular The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of schools. Education) -By leave, I move: If student populations in towns are That this Bill be now read a third time. to be divided into Government and non­ I thank Mr Landeryou and Mr Dunn for Government schools, perhaps it will be their thoughtful remarks. It is good to necessary to consider their sharing cer­ see all three parties sharing the same tain specialist services so that children view on this issue, which does involve are not disadvantaged because of the an advance in social thinking' and which 3980 Land Tax (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL will help to break down the barriers of charitable or non-profit making activi­ prejudice as well as making better use ties or for primary production and to of community facilities. increase the capacity of the Commis­ The motion was agreed to, and the sioner of Land Tax to delegate some of Bill was read a third time. his powers. Finally, as announced in the Budget LAND TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL speech, the penalty rate of interest in­ curred for late payment of land tax has The Hon. GL YN JENKINS (Minister been substantially upgraded from the of Water Supply)-I move: , present 8 per cent to 20 per cent. The That this Bill be now read a second time. need for such a rate will be obvious when it is recalled that commercial rates The Government has announced its in­ of interest are currently running fit tention to effectively implement its about 16 per cent. The new penalty rate policy of exempting the principal will apply to all tax outstanding at the residence from land tax and the purpose date the amending legislation comes into of this Bill is to bring this about. As effect, that is 1 January 1982. I have from 1 January 1982, this exemption also circulated, for the benefit of will be increased from $45 000 to honourable members, an explanatory $100000 or by more than 120 per cent. In practical effect, this change will memorandum on the clauses of the Bill, exempt most family homes, even after which I now commend to the House. allowing for the fact that 1978 munici­ On the motion of the Hon. W. A. pal valuations will become effective for Landeryou, for the Hon. D. E. KENT land tax purposes at the time time. (Chelsea Province), the debate was ad­ journed. Honourable members will recall that the nature of the principal residence It was ordered that the debate be ad­ exemption was radically changed in journed until Tuesday, December 8. 1918 with the introduction of a complete ALP SOCIALIST LEFT exemption up to a certain unimproved value and a straight-out deduction from The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN tax above that unimproved value. This (Western Province)-I move: form of exemption is still applicable but That this House expresses its concern at the the operative value will become stealthy growth of control of the Victorian ALP by an extremist faction known as the $100000 from 1 January 1982. Up to Socialist left, which is committed to policies this level, any principal residence which repugnant to Victorians and to industrial poli­ is the only land owned will be com­ cies which would be severely detrimental to pletely free from land tax. Beyond this the economic interests of' this State. value, a deduction of $665. 79 will be One may ask what the expansionist allowed, representing the tax payable aims of the Libyan fanatic, Colonel Gad­ on $100000. Where other land is also dafi, have to do with domestic politics owned, the maximum deduction avail­ in this State. Unfortunately, a great able in respect of the principal residence deal. will be increased to $665. 79. What relevance to Victoria have the The new exemption level is thus a policies of the Palestine Liberation handsome concession. It will not only Organization and its leader, Arafat, to exempt most family homes but also pro­ who leads the Labor Party in this State? vide a generous deduction to the very Unfortunately, great relevance. limited number of owners of a principal What are the so-called moderate ALP residence with an unimproved value in leaders doing to combat these alien in­ excess of $100000. fluences on the Victorian political Opportunity has also been taken to scene? Effectively, very little. include some other amendments in this We have heard, in recent times, of the Bill, to remove anomalies in the applica­ ability of the Socialist left faction to tion of exemptions already incorporated decide who does or who does not lead in the legislation for land used for the Labor Party in this State. This 2 December 1981] .1 LP Socialist Left 3981 faction, which has shown itself to be a the group was a "loose structure of per­ shadowy group both inside and outside sons sharing mutual interests and its Parliament, has demonstrated that decisions were not binding." He did not, ability. however, spell out the mutual interests to which he was referring. Who are these people? What are their policies? What do they stand for? With On Monday, 21 September 1981, the whom are they aligned? Socialist left issued a directive to its members that no statement was to be Some commentators have attempted made in relation to the policies of the to define the Socialist left. I will give Socialist left. ' honourable members three examples. In the absence of policy documents, The first is that the Socialist left is: one must determine where the interests Hard to define, but it is possibly the single and sympathies of Socialist left sup­ most radical rump of any Labor Party in the Western world. porters lie by examining their public statements and the published material. The second example is: This will give some insight into how The Socialist left is a party within a party, the Socialist left operates and what it dedicated to a radical reformation of society. aims to achieve in our society. The third example I quote is that: At least one Victorian politician, Mrs The Socialist left faction is often portrayed as a stony-hearted pro-Marxist faction within Joan Coxsedge, MLC, admits that, as the ALP, pushing for a peaceful overthrow of a Socialist, she is sympathetic to the capitalism. Irish RepubHcan cause. She, and 29 Unfortunately, an analysis of the poli­ other Labor members of Parliament, cies and personalities of the Socialist paid tribute in a newspaper advertise­ left, both inside and outside Parlia­ ment in the Sun on 7 May 1981 to ment, shows those assessments to be a IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands. How­ serious underestimation of the power ever, no reference was made to the and influence of that faction. IRA campaign of civilian terror which now extends to the booby trapping of I will also show the opportunistic children's toys. I have yet to see an way in which the centre unity and inde­ ALP newspaper tribute to the Northern pendent factions of the State ALP ally Ireland member of Parliament, the themselves with the Socialist left for Reverend Robert Bradford, who was short-term political advantage while, at shot down in front of 60 children on 15 the same time, losing the long-term November 1981. battle against the growing power and influence of the Socialist left. Mrs Coxsedge is a founder of the Victorian-based committee which is de­ I turn first to an examination of the dicated to an abolition of political police, policies of the Socialist left. The Socia­ a group called CAPP. Last year, she list left faction appears to be strong read a Christmas poem to this House and gaining power in this State and, in containing the names of three alleged fact, on a national scale. As it is a strong ASIO agents. Those names were pub­ group which has shown that it is able lished in Hansard and broadcast by Mr to dictate who will lead the Victorian Bill Hartley, about whom we will hear ALP, we are entitled to know its poli­ more, in Par A vion on radio 3CR on 20 cies. December. Mrs Coxsedge spoke approv­ An approach to the Victorian Branch ingly of a game played by the American of the ALP produces the answer, "We magazine Counterspy which has named cannot tell you. You had better go and more than 40 alleged ASI0 operatives see Mr Ryan." An approach to Tom from a list· supplied by CAPP .. Ryan of the Food Preservers Union met On 21 February, on radio 3CR, Bill with the response that the policy docu­ Hartley recounted that, after the Central ments associated with the Socialist left Intelligence Agency station chief in faction are not available for public dis­ Athens had been "fingered", that is, pub­ tribution and are available for internal licly named, he had been assassinated by distribution only. He went on to say that terrorists. 3982 ALP Socialist Left [COUNCIL When John Halfpenny made his move union movement and forced to vigor­ in 1979 from the Communist Party of ously oppose the constrjlction of the Australia to the ALP, he joked, as re­ Newport power stati9n. ported in the Australian of 26 June 1980, One disturbing point made by Mr that: Brendan Ryan in the Labor Star of He could not see the difference anyway­ August this year was: referring to the Victorian Branch of the ALP, To destroy capitalism in Australia will not which is dominated by the highly organized be easy, even mild reforql provoked concen­ Socielist left faction. There is some evidence trated opposition to the Whitlam Govemment. that the Socialist left faction, lead by Mr Jim One of tlie most important $teps in the battle for Roulston, mentor to Mr Halfpenny's AMSWU, Socialism is to gain control of the High Court. is in some ways more revolutionary and radical To do this, it may be necessary to wait several than the ageing and ineffective Communist years and to put pressute on hostile judges to Party. resign and make way for Labor appOintees. Even amongst Socialist left supporters, If these views do not represent the true their aims and the definition of a Social­ views of the Socialist left faction of the list society differ. An example was given Victorian ALP, then let them publish its by Brendan Ryan, writing in the Labor secret documents for scrutiny and tell Star newspaper of 6 August this year. us otherwise. He believes: At its State conference held in July Under a Socialist system, all places of pro­ 1980, a ballot resulted in five Socialist duction, distribution and exchange are con­ left members, including Mr Hartley, trolled by the employees. In the case of fl fac­ being elected to the foreign policy com­ tory, for example, how· much to produce and what price should be charged. Thus parasitic mittee. Apart from Mr HartIey, three management is eliminated, and benefits flow other hard-line Socialist left supporters direct to the workers. In a mixed economy, the were included. They were Mr Peter Government would ensure supplies of raw Steedman, the editor of the Labor Star, material and distribution to guarantee worker enterprises are not strangled by remaining Mrs Jean McLean and Mr Ray Hogan, capitalists, but this would be its only func­ who is now the Victorian State ALP tion. President. Mr Tom Byme, writing in the Labor That committee has done tremendous Star of September this year, did not damage to the Labor Party as illustrated agree with Mr Ryan, believing that some by the Australian of 11 July 1980, which of Mr Ryan's article was: stated: The foreign policy committee has been The most convincing argument against responsible for much of the public damage to Socialism I have read for some time. Ideas such the ALP over such issues as Russian dissidents, as yours would, if widely publicized, lose the Middle East, opposition to US air bases and thousands of votes for the ALP. the American hostages in Teheran. If Socialist left supporters are not clear The Socialist left faction not only has in their public statements regarding the control over the foreign policy com­ manner in which a Socialist system mittee but also over the Labor Star would function and they are not willing newspaper and radio 3CR. to allow their policy documents to be publicly scrutinized, we have little hope Let us look now at the cast of charac­ of any certainty in relation to the Social­ ters who feature in this intriguing saga. ist left's plans for the future, even As previously indicated, Mr Peter Steed­ though it has shown the clear ability man, a hard-line Socialist left supporter time and again of controlling the Parlia­ is also editor of the Labor Star, under mentary ALP. the general supervision of the State ALP Secretary, Mr Bob Hogg, who is A clear example of that ability was also a member of the Socialist left. seen over the Newport issue when the Radio station 3CR, or Community Radio, Parliamentary ALP voted to support the notionally represents all people of the construction of the Newport power sta­ community, allowing them to freely vent tion, subject to certain conditions. With­ their ideas. This, however, is clearly in a couple of weeks, it was found that not true. The Bulletin, of 23 June 1981, they had been chastised by the militant relates that when 3CR was applying for The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain 2 December 1981] ALP Socialist Left 3983

licence renewal Or Moss Cass, Minister support of Lord Mountbatten's assas­ for the Media when 3CR was estab­ sination. lished, indicated he supported the re­ Despite the fact that Mr Hartley has newal but he was disappointed that the been quoted as saying: station had refused to allow alternative The Socialist left iike the Australian Labor points of view on the Middle East to Party is alive, well, united, intact and confident be put, despite repeated requests. The of a bright future. views which are being heard on 3CR Mr Hartley and Mr Ryan attacked the are those of Mr Hartley and the Socialist then ACTU President, Mr Hawke, in a left faction of the ALP. broadcast on 3CR in November 1979. Pro-Libyan programmes are supported Mr Hawke is regarded as the main by the Food Preservers Union and com­ enemy of the Socialist left. pered by Mr Bill Hartley, who is one Mr Hawke referred to Bill Hartley and of the founders and the chief spokesman Tom Ryan as a "ventriloquist and his of the radical Socialist left faction and doll" and "your Hartleys and your Ryans strongly identified with the pro-terror are a canker within this party". A Social­ regimes of Libya and Iraq. ist left source predicted, accurately, that Mrs J oan Coxsedge, another Socialist Mr Hartley and Mr Ryan would not be left, has appeared regularly on the dealt with harshly because party mem­ Libyan programmes sponsored by the bers did not want to "rock the boat". Food Preservers Union and compered Mr Brian McKinlay, a Socialist left by Mr Bill HartIey. She has also visited member, former ALP candidate and a the Middle East on more than one curriculum and research officer in the occasion. Victorian Education Department, on radio 3CR, recounted a message from Mrs Coxsedge wrote a letter of sup­ Colonel Gaddafi to American President port for the licence renewal of 3CR Jimmy Carter, which read in part: when it last came due. The day after While continuing to belittle the Arabs and the tribunal hearing, writing in the Age diligently humiliating them while you fear and "Green Guide", Anthony McAdam noted glory the Jews although you are well aware that: the funds in Jewish ba"nks are in fact Arab. Therefore the Jews are a people of various Last week on 3CR, a letter from Mrs. Joan origins, living in various homelands as Coxsedge was given pride of place. It referred Americans, Russians, French and Arab. Hence to the assassination of Mr. Airev Neave, a the Jews are not people at all. British Cabinet Minister and described him as Mr Brian McKinlay is president of the a 'cowardly terrorist'. He was assassinated in the grounds of Parliament in November. 1979 Arab Libyan Australia Friendship So­ by the Irish National Liberation Army. He had ciety. Mr McKinlay claims that in 1978 an exceptionally heroic war record in the about fifteen people, including trade 'struggle against fascism' as they used to say. unionists, politicians and academics, The Australian Broadcasting Tribunal visited Libya under the auspices of the warned 3CR that its comment on society, and I must say that they usually the attempted assassination of Ronald come back and praise the regime as be­ Reagan was the type of comment that ing· for the good of the people, and so could put 3CR's licence in jeopardy. on. In 1979 another eight people travel­ A verbatim transcript of the morning led to that part of the world. broadcaster Bill Smale's comments read: It is important to realize the types of policies being pursued by Libya and its See they didn't get him anyway did they? It was a nice try, though. Perhaps the guy leader Colonel Gaddafi and which are who plugged John Lennon should have tried supported by the Socialist left. Last Feb­ for the big-RR-same as Rolls Royce when ruary the Age strongly condemned Gad­ you think of it, isn't it? How strange. Anyway, daft's invasion of Chad, support for ter­ better luck next time. rorism and interference in Africa. The . The Connolly Association Programme Colonel's policy of sending killers on 3CR at 9.30 a.m., Saturday is an abroad to permanently silence Libya's IRA propaganda front and it regularly critics is well known and documented. praises and advocates the use of vio­ On 28 October 1981 Gaddafi said that lence. 3CR has broadcast comment in the new Egyptian President Mubarak 3984 ALP Socialist Left [COUNCIL would suffer the same fate as assassinat­ In 1976, Mr Hartley angered the cen­ ed President Anwar Sadat. tre group when he ~ttempted to per­ What is the Victorian connection with suade the ALP State Conference to hear Libya? That connection comes to the an address by the visiting PLO rep­ very heart of this Parliament. One needs resentative Mr Garmai El Surani. to look at the activities of one Bill Since the centralization of radical Hartley. Mr Hartley has an extensive Arab activities at Franklin Street in history of active involvement and en­ 1978, several contacts have occurred, dorsement of a wide variety of Arab including the visit of a five-man delega­ regimes. In 1975, Mr Hartley then em­ tion in mid-1978 to set up the friendship ployed by the Australian Union of Stu­ society and a six-man Iraqi trade union dents played a leading role in attempting delegation in October 1979, organized by to organize a $500 000 loan from the Mr Hartley. According to the Age of 23 Iraqi dictatorship in order to help October 1979, the Iraqi trade unionist finance ·Mr Whitlam and the ALP threatened Australia with a trade boy­ Federal election. cott if Mr Hawke ever became Prime Mr Hartley has supported,' on various Minister! They take these issues occasions, Uganda's Idi Amin, Libya's seriously! Colonel Gaddafi, Iraq's Suddam Hussein Hartley's association with the Iraqi, -Arab Ba'ath Socialist Party that con­ Libyan and· Iranian regimes has been trols the Arab police state, brutally re­ unrepentent, even though all have been pressing internal dissidents-and Iran's criticized for their extremist and war­ irrational Ayatollah Khomeiny. Mr Bill like policies. In April of this year, the Hartley is secretary of the Arab Libyan London-based human rights organiza­ Friendship Association which operates tion Amnesty International detailed a out of a building owned by the Food number of instances where political pri­ Preservers Union at 126 Franklin soners in Iraq were tortured and some Str~et, Melbourne. It has been adorned died as a result of beatings, electrical with large posters of Colonel Gaddafi. shock, sexual abuse and other tortures. Other occupiers of the building include A 39-page report on Iraq documented an East German toy company and the fifteen-case studies and called upon Iraqi Government newsagency of which Sadaam Hussein to end incommunicado Bill Hartley is the Australian represent­ detention, to permit medical and family ative. East German-Libyan co-operation access to prisoners and to ban torture. is a phenomenon both locally and inter­ nationally. Pro-Arab groups also share A chronicle of overseas trips made by the same post box number with the Vic­ Mr HartIey, Tom Ryan of the Food torian ALP's Socialist left. Preservers Union of Australia and their As early as 1975, Mr Hartley had supporters makes interesting reading. invited representatives of the Pales­ In early 1974 Bill HartIey of the Iraki tine Liberation Organization to visit newsagency first visited Syria, Iraq and Australia. At that time there was Beirut and several other parts in Europe some doubt whether they would be and other countries. In September 1974, accept.ed into Australia but, accord­ Tom Ryan addressed the Syrian Con­ ing to T1:te Examiner of 29 January federation of Labour in Damascus, 1975, .Mr Hartley had given the Gov­ claiming to be speaking on behalf of ~he ernment Hobson's choice because if it Australian trade union movement. Mr allowed PLO representatives into Aus­ Hartley was in Iraq and met terrorist tralia it invited trouble, even bloodshed leader Yasser Arafat in Beirut in and increased the likelihood of becom­ December 1974. This was at the height ing involved in the violence associated of the PLOs Black September hijackings with the. Middle East. If it refused Mr and assassinations of innocent civilians. Hartley's guests, it would attract ter­ Mr Hartley was again in Lebanon in . rorist activities to international air ser­ July 1975 where he again met Arafat. vices and quite possibly disrupt the good In May 1978, Hartley wrote defending relations the Government had commend­ Gaddafi's role in the terrorist assassina­ ably preserved with the Arab countries. tion of Italian leader Aldo Moro. Hartley The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain 2 December 1981] ALP Socialist Left 3985 was again in Tripoli and Libya in Secretary of the Central Gippsland September 1978 and with Claudia Trades and Labour Council, and a Wright, he was celebrating Gaddafi's Socialist left member, visited Iraq to "AI Feteh" revolution. Hartley was at express fraternity with the general trade the Organization of African Unity and unions of Iraq. later Libya for three weeks in May 1979. This is all very intriguing and one State and Federal Secretary of the asks what has it possibly to do with Food Preservers Union of Australia, politics in Victoria. What has it to do Tom Ryan, was in South Lebanon with with politics in the Victorian ALP? I PLO guerillas. He was also in Moscow, shall show what it has to do with the Baghdad and Iraq in June 1979. Hartley politics within the Labor movement. was in Eastern Europe at the Soviet­ The key to the equation is, of course, backed World Peace Council in June Mr Bob Hawke, Federal ALP member 1979. for Wills, and a long-time friend of the In a later visit, Tom Ryan met ALP Israeli cause. By definition that makes official Gerry Hand, who of course is a him the bitter enemy of the pro-Libyan member of the ALP election campaign and pro-PLO Socialist left. team, Senator Cyril Primmer, Harry I shall provide some examples of the Jenkins, MHR, and Jack Ginifer, MLA intrusion of Middle East politics into the in Gaddafi's Libya. They are all mem­ domestic political scene. Socialist left bers of the Socialist left faction, and Federal ALP Parliamentarians con­ they later went to Beirut, Lebanon, demned the opposition of the Victorian where they met the terrorist Dr George Jewish Board of Deputies to radio Habash. Ryan, who claims to be a station 3CRs anti-Semitic broadcasts member of the ALP, said he was "most and successfully opposed an ALP con­ impressed" with Or Habash's Marxism­ ference call to support Soviet dissi­ Leninism. dents. Mr Hartley was at the Soviet front Secondly, in June this year, left wing organization, the World Peace Council New South Wales Labor MLC, Peter in Helsinki, Finland, and later in the Baldwin-he has been in the news over radical Arab countries in January 1980. the past week-end when he was suc­ Tom Ryan visited Afghanistan with pro­ cessful in opposing a moderate sitting Soviet front man Sam Goldbloom, and Ryan was one of the first Westerners to ALP member in New South Wales­ be admitted to Afghanistan after the circulated a pamphlet stating: The left wing of the Labor Party considers Soviet invasion and, not surprisingly, he the fighting in Lebanon is without doubt a supported the Karmel puppet regime. Zionist plot to defeat the Lebanese, the PLO Mr Hartley and Mr Ryan were not the and the Syrian army ... what we need to know is why ... Bob Hawke will not con­ only ones to travel extensively in that demn Israeli attacks on South Lebanon. part of the world. In September 1979 Mrs J oan Coxsedge attended the pre­ Bob Hawke was strongly opposed for paratory conference of the world con­ pre-selection for Wills by the Socialist ference of solidarity with the Arab left. people, funded by the Libyans and held For another example I refer to a state­ in Tripoli. According to H. J. Horchem, ment made by Mr Barrie Unsworth, sec­ a special writer in the German news retary of the State Labor Council, a magazine Die Welt, that conference was member of the New South Wales ad­ organized by the International Depart­ ministrative committee of the ALP who ment of the Soviet Communist Party directed a 'number of questions to the and its fronts like the World Peace New South Wales State Government to Council. Horchem described the con­ investigate and they included: ference as a major meeting of pro­ Whether an attack is being directed by terrorist and terrorist elements. extreme elements in the Labor Party against the New South Wales Plumbers Union; whether In August this year, Mrs Coxsedge, persons associated with this attack have con­ in company with three Australian trade tact with Middle Eastern powers, and whether union leaders, including Franz Onger, moneys used in the campaign against the 3986 ALP Socialist Left [COUNCIL Plumbers· Union have been raised in Australia about whom we will hear more. The or have come from Middle East countries, independents faction includes the Leader such as Iraq. of the Victorian ALP, Mr John Cain, and Here we have a senior member of the Senator John Button and Mr Evan Labor Party asking about the intrusion Walker, MLC. The Labor unity faction of middle eastern policies and money is led by Mr Bob Hawke, MHR, a former into our domestic Australian scene, and President of the Australian Council of it is a good question. Trade Unions and Mr Bill Landeryou, Further examples of the strong in­ Opposition Leader in the Victorian fluence exerted by the Socialist left Legislative Council. include the fact that any known Hawke Mr President, to give honourable supporter faces the probability of members some background into the split Socialist left opposition at pre-selection up of those factions, a very useful docu­ time. Mr Landeryou is reported to only ment has been prepared by the Labor have held his pre-selection on a 52 to Party for our edification. This document 48 split vote, and the current Richmond which fell off the back of a truck was council inquiry has shown up evidence prepared by Mr Michael Easson of the of the Jew versus Arab lobby. Why are NSW Labor Party and Education Officer these factors suddenly coming into of the Labor Council of NSW. It pro­ domestic policies? vides a very useful insight into this Given the acknowl~dged adherence of issue. It has a title which is intriguing. the Socialist left to support of pro­ The title is, "Can the Socialist left be terrorist regimes, one would expect beaten in· Victoria?" That in itself is other elements in the Victorian ALP to intriguing and obviously poses the distance themselves from Socialist left assumption that the Socialist left is in members inside and outside the Parlia­ control and puts the question: How can ment. Unfortunately that is not the case we get rid of them, and what is the like­ and let us see why. lihood of defellting them in this State. The fact that the document was pre­ An article appeared on 24 November pared by the Labor Party for internal 1981 in the Bulletin written by Mr Alan distribution shows that there are some Reid, who would be one of the most people, like Mr Barry Unsworth, who ,senior journalists working in Canberra are very worried about this issue. I and one of the most respected jour­ should take a little time and look at the nalists in Australia. He wrote: factional split up in the Victorian branch If the leaders want to know how the Socialist of the ALP. left manages to persuade Parliamentarians who normally would not be in tune with its ideo­ The Victorian ALP conference, held logic;al ()Utlook, the answer is simple. They in June of each year, is the most impor­ threaten Parliamentarians with what is their most prized posseSSion-their pre-selections. tant unit of the party. Conference dele­ Parliamentarians being basically fearful people gates elect Federal ALP conference when opposing a machine, especially once that delegates and executives. Conference machine has shown any capacity to implement delegates then elect a central electoral its threat, bow the knee. college for each Federal electorate pre­ Mr President, it is Important to look at selection and determine the policy and the three main factions operating within the platform' of the Victorian ALP. the ALP to understand how the policies Hence control of the ALP State con­ I have referred to are made ·and to ference is extremely influential in deter­ understand how the outside influences mining preselections and decisive in I have referred to flow into the Victorian electing office-bearers. domestic scene. Who attends the conference where As 1 have stated, there are three main such decisions are made? The number factions. The Socialist left has as its of constituents and union delegates is leaders, Mr Bill Hartley, a former determined by a quota system. Each general secretary of the Victorian ALP, federal electoral assembly and affiliated Mr Bob Hogg, the pr.esent general union shall be entitled to be represented secretary and Mr Jim Simmonds, MLA, at the conference by at last one delegate. The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain 2 December 1981] ALP Socialist Left 3987

The number of delegates at the 1981 con­ distributed to two remaining candidates ference of the Victorian ALP was 466, with two vice-presidents to be elected being 284 union delegates and 182 con­ under the proportional representation stituency delegates. This is as a per­ system, and Steve Crabb and lan Mill centage 60·94 union delegates and 39·06 were elected vice-presidents. Of those constituency delegates. three major positions, two went to the Socialist left and, even then, it had The distinct bias of the Labor Party only 45 per cent of the votes. That is towards the trade union sector may be because the Socialist left can rely on seen from the numbers outlined above. the so-called independents, Mr Cain, Unions are usually extremely careful to Mr Walker and Senator Button. Michael pick delegates who are compatible with Easson pOints out that: the factional alignment of their leader­ ship, whereas branch activists, elected The combined vote of the Socialist Left and the Independents-who are embraced in an as conference delegates tend to be the alliance to control the Victorian ALP-fluc­ most factionally committed within the tuates between 58·37 and 56·50 per cent. ALP. This does not mean there is absolute rigidity in voting for office­ That is interesting. The combined vote bearers elected at conference. For of the so-called independents are em­ example, sometimes "deals" with cross­ braced in an alliance to control the factional lines are worked out between Victorian ALP. That quote is by a faction leaders and unions to ensure senior officer of the Labor Party. election of particular candidates or the The present percentage of factional adoption of particular policies. Unlike alignments of union and constituency the Liberal Party, the decisions made at delegates is that 43·5 per cent of them State ALP conferences are binding upon are Socialist left aligned and 13 per cent the Parliamentary Party, as honourable of them are independents. As indicated members saw during the Newport row. earlier on particular issues, the indepen­ Easson reports that this was un­ dents and Socialist left trade votes and doubtedly the case at the 1981 Victorian this would mean that they are more ALP conference where a significant powerful than the Labor Unity faction. number of Socialist left supporters voted Easson further states there are a num­ for the election of certain independent ber of "moderate" unions who are not candidates in the election of the ad­ affiliated with the ALP. Most of those ministrative committee members in ex­ unions that might affiliate are strongly change for some independents voting anti-Communist and opposed to the for particular Socialist left candidates influence of the Socialist left in the ALP for delegates to the Federal ALP con­ but, at present they are not convinced ference. of the bona fides of the Labor Unity The strength of the Socialist left faction's approaches to them. faction may be seen in the election of I shall quote what he has to say about president and vice-president. Table 1 of the document from the report of Mr Bill Landeryou. He states: Michael Easson points out that Ray Bill Landeryou is the main person making Hogan, the Socialist left candidate, re­ contact with these unions and requesting their ceived 211 votes, Steve Crabb for the affiliation. Many of the offlcials of these unions Labor Unity received 184 votes, lan are not convinced that their afflliation will be a part of the anti-Socialist left drive by Mill, of the Socialist left, received none. the Labor unity faction. They do not, as one Hugh McBride received two votes, and offlcial put it~ want to be led to the mountain Evan Walker, the Independent, received top only to be pushed aside later on. Landeryou 45, giving a total of 442 votes. is not trusted by some of these officials who recall that when he was Secretary of the The report points out that in this Victorian Branch of the Storeman and Packers election Ray Hogan, the Socialist left Union, Landeryou swung his delegation and his secretary of the Victorian branch of supporters to vote for Socialist left candidates the Miscellaneous Workers Union, was for the Victorian Trades Hall Council executive in 1978. They would much prefer to deal with elected president. His preferences were Hawke who is now regarded as someone with 3988 ALP Socialist Left [COUNCIL closer ideological affinities and more principled primary purpose of this task force determination to destroy the Socialist left's appears to be to assist the Labor Party Uifluence within the Victorian ALP. _ to win the next election. I repeat that this document was pre­ pared by a senior officer of the Labor In July of this year, when the Trans­ Party. He expresses concern at the in­ po~ Workers Union disrupted the nation fluence that the Socialist left faction has In Its figh~ for a 10·45 per cent rise, the ALP dId not intervene or assist in i!l combina~ion with the 'independents lIke Mr CaIn, Mr Walker and Senator en~ing the dispute. Even though the Button. Michael Easson comes to the strIke affected the supplies of food­ conclusion that it 1s extremely likely stuffs and even oxygen for life-saving that even if all of the moderate unions machines in hospitals, the Labor Party did affiliate with the Victorian - ALP was still very quiet. the Socialist left and its ally, the in­ The Sunday Press of 26 July 1981 dependent faction of Cain, Walker and commented: Button, would still control the Vic­ State Labor Leader Frank Wilkes and his torian ALP. shadow Ministers certainly stayed in the shadows when the going got tough last week. When one analyses the report in They could have won lots of marks and votes detail, one comes up with an emphatic by visibly trying to help solve the union-caused "No" in response to the question posed chaos I instead of giving their tacit approval. on whether the Socialist left can be With the State election drawing def~ated in Victoria. One sees on a daily closer, the ALP has now found it con­ basI~ the resu)ts of Socialist left policies, partIcularly In the field of industrial venient to promote industrial peace relations. I - have spelled out to the purely for political advantage yet in the House on a previous occasion, in recent strikes it was not interested in Hansard of 22 November 1978 at page getting involved. But let us look -more 6111, the close alliance which exists in closely at the composition of the ALP industrial task force. One member Mr most serious industrial disputes between Jim Simmonds, a prominent Soci'alist Socialist left ALP members and Com­ left member, is the mouthpiece of self­ munists in areas of serious dispute-­ styled former ,Moscow Communist Mr Latrobe Valley, Newport, and the water­ John Halfpenny of the Amalgamated front. My colleagues Mr Hayward and Metalworkers and Shipwrights Union. ~r Bubb will closely analyze the ALP That -union has time and again shown Industrial relations policies and demon­ itself to be contemptuous of the in­ strate the disastrous effect these policies terests of the Victorian public. It has would have on the industrial scene in been in the forefront of industrial dis .. this State. But let me tell the House putation in this State. Its policies have about John Cain's industrial peace­ been shown to be more influenced by keeping force. left-wing ideology rather than the in­ Mr John Cain has established a team terests of the workers it purports to within the ALP to try to prevent strikes represent. To see a metalworkers' before the next State election. Senior spokesman such as Mr Simmonds as Labor sources said the move was part part of an indu~~rial peacekeeping force of an ALP campaign to keep industrial IS absolute pohtlcal hypocrisy. dIsputes out of the election campaign. The tool to ensure industrial peace But I shall go further in considering would be an industrial relation's task Mr Cain's peacemakers. The next is force, headed by Labor leader in the the redoubtableMr Landeryou, the Hon­ Legislative Council, Mr Landeryou Fed­ ourable Mr Landeryou, of storemen and eral President of the Storeman' and packers fame. The storemen and packers Packers Union-I am not sure whether hO'I~ the demarcation trophy, even above he is still the Federal President-who the Infamous Builders Labourers Federa­ has a close relationship with many union tion. The storemen and packers have leaders and has access to the decision­ been in the forefront of industrial dis­ makers within the ACTU and THe. The putation throughout this country, mainly The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain 2 Dece'mber 1981] ALP Socialist Left 3989 as a result of its constant attempts to New South Wales, recognizes that encroach on the preserves of other limitations must be placed on militant unions. union action which acts to the detriment It has cut off fuel to commercial air of the public. Our Fuel Emergency Act flights, held' the wool industry to which 'was opposed by the ALP is ransom, recently deprived the Australian modelled on Mr Wran's legislation. Navy of fuel for an important exercise, However, the public of Victoria must and generally made a nuisance of itself. be made aware that a State ALP is com­ Mr Landeryou is the political oppor­ mitted to abdicating the field of law and tunist par excellence, as Michael Easson order where union action is involved. has very succinctly pointed out. That is a sorry state of affairs, par­ It is interesting to hark back to the ticularly when one knows that the most circumstances surrounding the deal that militant union guerilla leaders emanate was made to ensure a safe Labor seat from Victoria. We have all the ratbags in the Federal Parliament for former here and they are causing constant State Leader, Mr Clyde Holding, even problems to the people of this State and though it meant selling out Mr Simon causing untold economic loss to the Crean. people of Victoria. Recently members These two people are, among others, of the Parliamentary ALP have been entrusted with the task of dampening going around the community amongst down industrial disputes which might be the trade union movement trying to damaging to ALP electoral prospects in gather support for the infamous this State. What utter hypocrisy! Where Builders Labourers Federation led by were those gentlemen and the rest of Peking Communist Mr Norm GalIagher. the peacemaking team when Victoria Those are the people they are support­ recently faced a crippling transport ing. strike? Where were they in the crippling The circumstances of the removal of Latrobe Valley strike of 1977 when half Mr Frank Wilkes as State ALP Leader a million Victorians were out of work in September of this year clearly reveals and people were almost starving? 'Where the power of the Socialist left as king­ were they in recent rail disputes when makers. rail services were cut off without warn­ ing to the public? In May 1980 Mr Wilkes called for a spill of all positions in the Parliamentary Why has this team been formed? Per­ party. He relied heavily on the thirteen haps it could be suggested that it is to votes of the Socialist left to defeat Mr look after the interests of Victoria. Cain's challenge by 29 votes to sixteen That is nonsense. It is there purely to votes. put a false front on the militant unions in this State. That has all the hallmarks (Although membership of the Parlia­ of the Cain Labor Party movement. It mentary Socialist left faction has shown is trying to put a false front on the some fluidity, the following members militant Labor unions until after the of Parliament appear to form the State election. faction on a more or less regular basis: What will happen then? All one has to Jim Simmonds do is to look at the industrial affairs Theo Sidiropoulos policy of the State ALP. Firstly, the Giovanni Sgro party is committed to repealing the Peter Spyker Essential Services Act and the Vital Glyde Butler State Projects Act. Both of which are J oan Coxsedge designed to protect the interests of the Jack Culpin general Victorian public in times of Graham Ernst crises. But it goes further than that. By Eric Kent its platform the State ALP has com­ Kevin King mitted itself to repealing any legislation Bunna Walsh which in any way restricts any union CyrH Kennedy activities. Mr Wran, the ALP Premier of Jack Ginifer. .... 3990 ALP Socialist Left [COUNCIL

I am open to offers; if anyone wishes 5. Thirteen Socialist left members of to add their name to that list, I shall be the Parliamentary ALP provide a fairly happy to do so. On the other hand, if solid block vote. and that vote is anyone has a strong objection to being dictated from outside Parliament. placed in that category, I shall be happy 6. As we have seen, it has inordinate to remove the name. influence on ALP foreign policy. so On Wednesday, 2 September 1981, the much so that when a motion was mov­ executive of the non-Parliamentary ed seeking support for Soviet dissidents Socialist left faction decided unanim­ who are being harassed in their own ously to withdraw its support from Mr country. from being discriminated Wilkes. This decision was endorsed at a against, the Socialist left would not meeting of left wing unions on the fol­ even support that motion. lowing night. 7. Recent moves have been aimed at Mr Wilkes announced that he was not replacing Senator John Button, who in "prepared to accept dictation from a any man's language is a good per­ source outside the parliamentary party". former, with Socialist left member But the die was cast. The Socialist left George Crawford, who comes up with had made its decision. Mr Wilkes had to all the unbelievable nonsense one could go and John Cain would be the new think of. Leader. We have seen that Mr Cain's inde­ Mr Ivan Trayling. an ALP member of pendents faction and Mr Landeryou's the Legislative Council. was quoted in centre unity group have been happy to the Age of 5 September 1981 as saying support the Socialist left whenever it that Mr Cain would be"more a prisoner has suited their own short-term aims. of the Socialist left than the peasants However, there has been an inexorable of Russia are to the Kremlin bosses". It growth in the power and influence of ·is interesting to note that ALP activist the Socialist left in the organization of and Socialist left member Mrs Caroline the ALP, both State and Federal. In Hogg. the wife of Socialist left State other words, Mr Landeryou On occa­ Secretary Bob Hogg. has been installed sions might win a battle and Mr Cain as Mr Cain's "office co-ordinator". on other occasions might win a battle, Perhaps Mr Trayling is right! When one but the Socialist left is winning the war! looks at the other people surrounding On 22 July 1981, in an interview with Mr Cain, I am sure that Mr Trayling is Bill Hartley, Senator George Georges of right. Queensland boasted that the Socialist In summary, the Socialist left has left had control of the Queensland ALP gained enormous control and influence administrative committee by eight votes in Victoria: out of fifteen and three out of six votes 1. The State President, one vice-presi­ on the disputes tribunal. It is clear that dent and the Secretary of the ALP are in Tasmania the Socialist left engineered the removal of Premier Doug Lowe. The members of the Socialist left. plans of the Socialist left to expand its 2. The Socialist left controls' the control are clear. newspaper Labor Star and radio station Are these views shared by anyone? 3CR. Are they just my views? Again I refer 3. The Socialist left intends, accord­ the House, as I said before, to the views ing to Mr Hartley, as stated on 16 May of respected Canberra journalist Alan this year, to take' control of radio Reid, who has been on the political station 3KZ, which belongs to the Labor scene for many years and is one of the Party. most knowledgeable and respected journalists in Australia. On 24 Nov­ 4. The Socialist left has 43·5 per ember 1981 he wrote the following cent of State conference votes, and with article; which reads, inter alia: its independents ally, controls the con­ John Cain, the new ALP Leader, has his ference which dictates policies to ALP problems. He was part of the Socialist left's Parliamentarians. technique of trying to make captive persons The Hon. B. A. Chamberlain 2 Dec-ember 1981] ALP Socialist Left 3991 who are not, basically, in sympathy with their who has been the cause of much dissaf­ ideology. Cain owes his present elevation to fection within the. Greek community; the fact that the socialist left shifted their support from Frank WHkes to him. And the and the remarkable Mrs Joan Coxsedge. Socialist left and their allies have the policy The sell-out of the traditional Australian of seeing that those they support pay a high Labor Party would then be complete. price for the retention of that support. The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU Perhaps last week honourable members (Doutta Galla Province) -I move: saw the first glimmer of that when Mr That' the debate be now adjourned. Jim Simmonds started to flex his muscle 1 suggest that the debate be adjourned on wages and conditions. ' until Tuesday next. The Cain shadow Cabinet of twenty is The Hon. D. K. HA YW ARD clearly not the Cabinet which would (Monash Province) -I protest about the take office if an ALP Government were motion to adjourn the debate on this elected in Victoria. The shadow Cabinet matter, which is of considerable public contains only three Socialist left mem­ importance. Obviously it is a question bers-Jack Ginifer, MLA; Eric Kent; with which the Opposition is not un­ MLC, and Jim Simmonds, MLA. familiar and we believe the debate I am doubtful about the appearance should go ahead. 1 cannot understand of Mr Kent's name on that list. He is why the debate should be adjourned at such a reasonable man! 1 am waiting this stage. for him to put up his hand and say The Hon. CLIVE BUBB (Ballarat that it is not true. Province) -I object to the adjournment of the debate. The matters under dis­ When it is realized that the Socialist cussion are every-day affairs of Oppo­ left controls 43·5 percent of Australian sition members. Members of the Opposi­ Labor Party State conference votes, tion understand them very well, and even without the support of John Cain's the matters should be debated. because faction of "independents", it is obvious adequate notice has been given. Along that the Socialist left would demand with Mr Hayward, 1 have prepared much greater representation in the extensively for the debate and we will actual Cabinet. Who will make way for be rather frustrated if it does not con­ them, or more correctly, who will be tinue. " removed? Those most likely to go will be the luckless Frank Wilkes who, just The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of before his removal as leader, stated: Education) -Mr Landeryou indicated to me outside the Chamber that he pro­ Two weeks ago Mr John Cain visited my posed to seek an adjournment of the office and expressed his support for me. debate. 1 must say that 1 was surprised Those remarks appeared in the Sun of at that approach in the circumstances. 5 September 1981. 1 would hate him A damning indictment of the Socialist to be against me! Others likely not to left cause within the Australian LabOr appear in a Cain Cabinet are Mr Wilkes' Party has been laid and one would have supporters, Tom Edmunds, Bill Fogarty thought that Mr Landeryou, as Leader and Neil Trezise-and possibly Mr Rod of that party in this House, would want Mackenzie-all of whom would be to rise immediately and put his case, if regarded as too conservative by the he had one. Socialist left. One can only assume that Mr The Cain shadow Cabinet is only for Landeryou needs more time to con­ struct a case in respect of the com­ public consumption prior to the elec­ ments that have been made. If the tion. The Socialist left will demand at facts are in any degree not as outlined least eight members, which will bring in -and 1 congratulate Mr Chamberlain the likes of Giovanni Sgro, whose FILEF on the homework he has done-one organization was described by an Age would have thought that the Leader of editorial on 28 April. 1975, as "Com­ the Australian Labor Party in this munist inspired"; Theo Sidiropoulos, House could deal with the matter im- 3992 Associations Incorporation Bill [COUNCIL mediately. I do not support the adjourn­ raised with a view to ascertaining ment of the debate, but there has been whether the Bill had to be amended ac­ a tradition in the House that if another cordingly. The first matter concerned party seeks the adjournment of a auditing. provisions. Mr Landeryou sug­ motion just introduced it will in normal gested that it might be desirable to re­ circumstances be granted, even if with quire organizations incorporated under reluctance. this Act to have their accounts audited. On this occasion the Government is The Hon. W. A. Landeryou-Only disappointed that the Opposition has not large organizations. availed itself as it should-in my belief -of the first opportunity of respond­ The Hon. HADDON STOREY-! ing to serious accusations of this accept the view that it should only be nature. The fact that the Opposition has large organizations. I was once allowed the remarks to pass without Treasurer of the local Little Athletics response amounts almost to a tacit Club,and if I had had the accounts admission of the facts and an acknow­ audited I would have been rather em­ ledgment that the Opposition cannot barrassed. I found it difficult to keep respond. the books in order each year. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North An Honourable Member-Do not in­ Eastern Province) -It is traditional in criminate yourself! this House that notices of motion are The Hon. HADDON STOREy-It was adjourned for a period of time to give simply because people handed me 5 the other side' of the House an oppor­ cents here and 10 cents there and it was tunity of considering the matters raised. difficult to keep track of all these en­ It is all very well for honourable mem­ counters. However, there are much bers to point out that plenty of notice larger associations that would become has been given. The terms of the motion incorporated under this Bill and which have been published for some days, would handle large amounts of money although the precise contribution made at times. Those organizations already by Mr Chamberlain has not. Mr Cham­ have provisions in their own rules, in berlain has made serious allegations many cases, for audited accounts to be which need time for consideration by prepared. Opposition members. The National Party has no concern one way or the other On the last occasion the Committee about whether the debate proceeds now met, I said that I did not think clause 54 or at a later date but it is interested would permit the making of model rules in preserving the traditions of the that would call for audited accounts. I House. The tradition is that the ad­ have discussed that matter with Parlia­ journment be granted when it is sought. mentary Counsel and I must inform the Committee that I am now of a different The motion for the adjournment of view. When one looks-as I obviously the debate was agreed to, and it was did not- at clause 54 (2) one finds that ordered that the debate be adjourned it says that the regulations may "pre­ until Tuesday, December 8. scribe rules as model rules, being rules that make provision for the several ASSOCIATIONS INCORPORATION matters that are specified in the BILL schedule, whether or not they make pro­ The House went into Committee for vision for other matters." Under those the further consideration of this Bill. words, "whether or not they make pro­ vision for other matters", it would be Discussion was resumed on clause 2 possible to make rules requiring audited (Division into Parts). accounts. However, even though this is The Hon. HADDON STOREY so, I have given further consideration (Attorney-General) -Last time the to the matter and come to the view that Committee discussed the Bill I indicated Mr Landeryou was right in suggesting that I would consider two matters that there are some associations that 2 December 1981] Associations Incorporation Bill 3993 ought to have their accounts audited should need only the word "Incorpor­ and that it would be preferable to have ation" at the end of their name or the specific reference to that in the Bill abbreviation. That is the position in rather than to leave it be to something two other States, where similar legis­ that mayor may not be provided for in lation exists and it is appropriate to the rules. have the same position apply in Vic­ toria. However, I do not think it is appro­ priate to try to set out in the Bill the The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN classes of organizations that should (Western Province) -I thank the Attor­ have their accounts audited because ney-General for his acceptance of the that is a matter on which I would like suggestion that the cumbersome title of to take advice from various associations "Association Incorporated" not be pro­ and organizations of associations. There­ ceeded with and that he accepts "Incor.. fore, I foreshadow an amendment to porated" or "Inc.". The various clubs, clause '54 that will enable regulations to societies and other associations will be made for the audit of financial af­ agree that that is a sensible move. I fairs of associations, or associations in­ thank the Attorney-General for giving cluded in a class of associations. That expeditious consideration to the issue. would be wide enough then to designate particular types of associations as those The clause was agreed to, as were that would have to comply with audit­ clauses 3 to 11. ing rules. Clause 12 (Name of aSSOciation) The second matter that I want to The Hon. HADDON STOREY address is the name "Associations In­ (Attorney-General)-I move: corporated" that associations would Clause 12, sub-clause (2), omit all words have to use under this Act. Clause 12 on lines 8 and 9 and insert '''Incorporated'' says that an incorporated association as the last word in its· name, whether or not shall have the words "Association In­ within brackets'. corporated" at the end of its name and Clause 12, sub-clause (3), omit all words on that it can use the abbreviations, lines 12-14 and insert, 'the abbreviation "Inc." "Assoc." and "Inc.". I am advised that in place of the word "Incorporated" '. there are organizations that can be in­ In speaking to clause 2, I explained porated overseas and can be registered the reasons for the amendments that I as foreign companies in Australia, which have moved. have the word "Inc." at the end of their letters. The Committee would be The amendments were agreed to, and familiar with American companies that the clause, as amended, was adopted, as have this designation. Hence, there is were clauses 13 to 53. some possible risk of confusion. Clause 54 (Regulations) Nonetheless, I am impressed by the The Hon. HADDON STOREY argument put that associations would (Attorney-General)-I move: find it clumsy to call themselves "As_ sociation Incorporated" in full or even Clause 54, sub-clause (2), after line 37 in the abbreviated form. For instance, insert- the Surrey Hills Cricket Club would not cc ( ) make provision for the audit of their financial affairs by incorporated associations or necessarily want to call itself the Surrey incorporated associations included in a class Hills Cricket Club Association Incorpor­ of incorporated associations, the persons who ated. It would not want to drop the may act as auditors of incorporated associa­ name, "Club" and call itself the Surrey tions, the presentation of audited statements of financial affairs to members of incorporated Hills Association Incorporated. associations and the lodging of such state­ Taking all matters into account, even ments with the Registrar;". though there may be some slight risk of I have explained the reason for the confusion with foreign companies, none­ amendment, which is to give effect to theless, I am of the opinion that associ­ the suggestion made by Mr Landeryou ations incorporated under this Bill during the previous Committee stage. 3994 Associations Incorporation Bill [COUNCIL

It will enable appropriate regulations to The amendment was agreed to, and be made dealing with an appropriate the clause, as amended, was adopted, class of organization. as were the remaining clauses and the The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU schedule. (Doutta Galla Province)-I question The Bill was reported to the House whether it is necessary for the lodging with amendments, and passed through of statements with the Registrar of In­ its remaining stages. corporated Associations and whether that will not merely fill up a room some­ COMPANIES (CONSEQUENTIAL where unnecessarily. I question whether AMENDMENTS) BILL the clause would not be better phrased COMPANIES (APPLICATION OF if it finished at the word "association" LAWS) BILL rather than include the last phrase. I COMPANIES (ADMINISTRATION) should be interested to hear the BILL Minister's views on that. The debate (adjourned from Novem­ The Hon. HADDON STOREY ber 19) on the motion of the Hon. (Attorney-General)-There is some Haddon Storey (Attorney-General) for merit in what Mr Landeryou says. How­ the second reading of these Bills was ever, there are companies incorporated resumed. under section 24 of the Companies Act that is, companies that have education The Hon. W. A. LANDERYOU or charitable community purposes and (Doutta Galla Province) -As the Attor­ it is a condition of those companies ney-General remarked during his second­ being so incorporated that they have reading speech, a significant debate was their accounts audited and, in some held not long ago when a number of cases, it is also a condition that the Bills in relation to the co-operative com­ accounts be lodged with the Corporate panies and securities scheme were in­ Affairs Office. The reason is that some troduced. These Bills complete the of these associations or organizations package. do conduct business, although they do At that time we discussed the prin­ not do so for profit, but as part of their ciple involved and my party pointed other activities. The Bill will enable out that, in its view, legislation of this those organizations to transfer their in­ sort should be on a national basis, of corporation· from the Companies Act a national character and ought not to to the proposed Associations Incorpora­ be considered as some progressive move tion Act. when the seven States have different It is likely one would want those sorts approaches and simply come together of companies to continue filing audited and agree on procedure. Australia reports so that the people who deal should adopt a common legislative with them, in the trade sense, can ex­ approach through the Federal Parlia­ amine the audited reports. For that ment with respect to these matters. The reason, it is desirable to include this Attorney-General pointed out this was power in the clause. It does not have a unique view, in terms of Australia. to be exercised but simply gives the Labor parties in other States did not power to make regulations. There may prescribe to that view. Nevertheless, be a case for saying that, in the case my party does not resile from the posi­ of certain types of association, not only tion it took on the last occasion when should they have audited accounts but this matter was before the House. those accounts should be lodged with Having said that, I am bound to point the registrar. I therefore persist with out that it would be consistent with our the amendment in this form. approach on that occasion to again I will certainly take note of Mr Lan­ oppose these measures on that principle. deryou's comments. I would not want The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North to see regulations which would require Eastern Province)-I do not propose to all such accounts to be lodged with the canvass the remarks I made earlier when registrar. honourable members debated a similar 2 Dec·ember 1981] Companies Bill 3995 group of Bills introduced as part of the methods used to wrest control of a over-all package for nation-wide com­ certain motel chain from the gentleman panies legislation. As I understand the who had established it. According to position, this .is the final group within the reports that were published in the the package. These Bills have the sup­ press at the time, one gentleman who port of the National Party. The proposed was prominent in financial circles legislation is very important. was the major instrument by which that control was wrested in circum­ Honourable members are all well stances which may have been legal but aware of the abuses of the company law were certainly not honest and were the that have occurred in the past, and the type of operations which these mea­ activities of certain company promoters. sures perhaps aim to prevent. That One can express the hope that uniform same gentleman is still operating today legislation will overcome many of the as a financial adviser and those ques­ deficiencies that have been found in the tion marks still remain about his con­ past. duct of business affairs. That is the first The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON (Higin­ point that I wish to make, that the botham Province) -The Attorney­ efficacy of these Bills, voluminous General more or less knows the lines though they may be, is still doubtful. on which I am going to discuss these The second point is perhaps a little Bills. so it will come as no suprise to more practical. In common with the him when I express very grave mis­ other States, Victoria has to a large givings about this proposal. degree through this proposed legisla­ When I first entered Parliament, the tion, surrendered its sovereignty in Companies Act was a small volume, these matters. I understand there is probably an inch thick; today-with its some considerable doubt about the con­ associated documents-it is probably stitutional powers of Victoria as op­ eight or nine inches thick. I defy any­ posed to those of the Commonwealth one to settle down and understand the to legislate in company matters, and for contents of the two Bills the Attorney­ this reason the hand of the Attorney­ General has just held up, let alone the General w~s forced to a large extent associated documents that go with them. and the threat was held over the States I suggest the whole object of the legis­ that unless they agreed to participate lation is totally ineffective. in this type of legislation, the Common­ wealth would go it alone. To a large extent these measures arose from an inquiry conducted by a The Commonwealth normally stands Senate committee some years ago over the States, using its financial which revealed a number of deplorable powers as the axe with which to actions by certain wheelers and dealers coerce the States into submission. In in the financial world. Irrespective of this case there was a threat that the party affiliations, one cannot condone Commonwealth would pass its own or support those actions. I suggest that, legislation and, to express it meta­ despite the enormous increas'e in the phorically, the States could jump in volume of legislation, those same the lake. These Bills, this enormous wheelers and dealers are operating to­ volume of proposed legislation, will day and will continue to operate and be used not only to control the large that the proposed legislation will be interstate and international corporations totally ineffective in controlling these opera ting within Victoria but will be undesirable activities. used also to control the activities of the little family company, perhaps a man Mr President, if you wish to look at and his wife operating a farm in Mr the sort of thing to which I am re­ Dunn's province, or a man and his ferring, I suggest you should look at a brother operating a small contracting long article that appeared in the Truth business that never considered for a about two years ago in which details moment extending its activities outside were given of the rather doubtful the confines of the shire in which it 3996 Companies Bill [COUNCIL operates, let alone beyond the bound­ debate I have noted Mr Hamilton's aries of the State. The whole panoply remarks. As he said, he has made of this volume of proposed legislation similar comments to me in the past. is to control such activities, and I can I have taken note of them and I do only describe it as singularly in appro­ not think I should take up the time priate. of the Committee by actually debating At this stage consideration should be that topic with him now. I move: given to asking the Attorneys-General Schedule 2, page 16, in the item relating to of the States and the Commonwealth Act No. 9212, omit "of that Act" in proposed paragraph

The Hon. HADDON STOREY of the Environment Protection Author­ (Attorney-General) -The Law Institute ity, and particularly the way in which of Victoria has drawn my attention, and the fees are levied and adjusted, should apparently the attention of other be subject to some investigation and parties, to a drafting question in clause further amendment. With that in mind, 3. The institute has indicated that it I move the following reasoned amend­ supports the principles of the Bill fully. ment: It is not sure that this clause is neces­ That all the words after "That" be omitted sary but, in any event, it thinks it is with the view of inserting in place thereof "this ambiguous and that it should be re­ House refuses t.o read this Bill a second time drafted to clarify that ambiguity. until a guarantee is given that there will be instituted a full inquiry into the appropriateness The Government accepts the sug­ of current administrative procedures within the gestion of the Law Institute of Victoria, Environment Protection Auth.ority to ensure and the amendment I have circulated, that the proposed new fees will be effectively I think, follows the suggestion of the applied". institute. Therefore, I formally move: It is my clear understanding when the Clause 3, lines 19 and 20, omit "shall be Environment Protection Authority Act taken not to include any amount debited to was first passed by the Parliament in that account under paragraph (f) of sub-section 1970, that the legislation broke new (4)" and insert "shall be calculated after ground, certainly for Victoria, and debiting any amount required under paragraph (f) of sub-secti.on (4) to be debited to that probably for Australia, and it was very account". much a leading piece of legislation, I believe the effect is the same, but it even on the world scene. is made clearer and the ambiguity is It is fair to state that in the inter­ removed. vening period, the operations of the The amendment was agreed to, and authority, under the Act which was the clause, as amended, was adopted, passed at that time, have in large mea­ as was the remaining clause. sure achieved the purpose that they The Bill was reported to the House set out to achieve, in the sense that with an amendment, and passed there is now in Victoria less pollution of land, air and water than there was through its remaining stages. at that time, and there is a reduction in pollution generally. At the same time, ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION because it dealt with intangibles, and (LICENCE FEES) BILL (No. 2) because of the difficulty of proper ob­ The debate (adjourned from Novem­ jective measures and the always con­ ber 26) on the motion of the Hon. tentious subjective judgment on what W. V. Houghton (Minister for Conserv­ constitutes pollution, there are real ation) for the second reading of this problems with the administration' of the Bill was resumed. Act, and real problems for business in The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North making a judgment and in understand­ Eastern Province) -Firstly, I would like ing the provisions of the, Act under to thank the Hon. Evan Walker for the which the Environment Protection opportunity to speak first on this Bill. Authority is expected to operate. As explained in the Minister's second­ It has been difficult to define those reading speech, this Bill is an equit­ rules and regulations, because they are able arrangement and overcomes an require intricate objective measure­ historical imbalance that has developed ments and to subjective judgment. In­ between the fees paid by small and dustry have been told from time to large industries. In that sense, it is time that they are creating a nuisance reasonable and the National Party sup­ and to abate that nuisance. The ports the intent of the Bill. Environment Protection Authority then However, after some eleven years of said that it cannot advise on the means operation, it would not be unreasonable of abatement, but it will inform the to suggest that the current operations offending industry when it does and the general thrust and development conform. This uncertainty, and the Session 1981-137 3998 Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) [COUNCIL difficulty of assessing the require­ setting area are, in the case of ments of the Environment Protec­ sewerage, that one of the criteria used tion Authority regulations, is a disin­ is the number of tenements, and not centive to the establishment of industry. the efficiency of the system above the At the same time, the fee setting minimum efficiency required to obtain a criteria are not necessarily directly licence in the first place. In the case related to the actual volume or toxicity of drains, the size of the municipality, of pollution or discharge, and many and therefore the calculated amount of factors, such as the horsepower of the discharge, are the factors on which the emitting machine-with no discount to fees are based. In agriculture-and allow for a more effective and less ,agricultural industry does from time to polluting machine below the maximum time require a licence from the Environ­ permissible level-is a criterion that is ment Protection Authority-the number used within the Environmen~ Protection of pigs or the number of cows is im­ Authority. Another fee setting mech­ portant, but there is no consideration anism is grate size, in the case of in the setting of fees to whether waste furnaces, and there is no discount in recycling or collection practices are the case of a firm or business that used to reduce pollution. There is. operates at a poIIution discharge level therefore, no incentive through the fee less than the maximum acceptable structure of the Environment Protection level, so again there is no bonus. Authority to encourage businesses, The Hon. W. V. Houghton-You farmers or communities to reduce their said there was no way of measuring it. discharge or to use that discharge in a 'You said it was subjective. more effective and efficient way. The Hon. D. M. EVANS-I said it is These sorts of inconsistencies and difficult to measure objectively, and the intangibles built into the fee system that is one of the problems. Because it inhibit industry, and the uncertainty was new and innovative legislation, businesses must face in the types of that is one of the problems the auth­ licences and conditions they must ority is operating with. There is no adhere to and the practices to which discount for those firms that operate they must adhere to fulfill those con­ more effectively and efficiently, pro­ ditions are also inhibiting. vided they are below the maximum In addition, fee setting does not take amount of discharge. At the same time, into account the self-monitoring that an industry can be refused a licence if many of the major industries carry out. other similar industries with similar In some cases, self-monitoring can cost chemical discharges raise poIIution a major industry as much as $100 000 levels above acceptable levels in a a year. Although it may seem that self­ particular neighbourhood. Therefore, monitoring is a less acceptable way of when there is a lack of incen tive to achieving the results the Environment reduce poIIution below a particular Protection Authority would be expected level, thereby reducing the total poIIu­ to achieve, it is the view of the tion in a neighbourhood, that can block National Party that, because the repu­ the establishment of industries in the tation of a business, both in the com­ area. munity and before the Environment Because it acts as a dis'incen tive it Protection Authority, will suffer if the seems to the National 'Party that these self-monitoring is seen not to be carried important criteria for setting fees need out properly, self-monitoring would further adjustment and investigation appear to be an effective and reason­ and there should be an opportunity for able way in which to measure polluting further input by industry and com­ discharges. Despite that, there is no munity groups that are interested in way in which the cost of that self­ these matters. monitoring can be taken into account Further examples of the problems in setting the fee for the Environment that are at present being faced by both Protection Authority licence.' Other industry and the authority in the fee businesses, which do not carry out 2 Dec'ember 1981] Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) 3999 self-monitoring, will pay the same fee, The reasons I have given illustrate which one can assume takes into that now is an appropriate time for a account the cost of the Environment full inquiry into the operations of the Protection Authority having to make Environment Protection Authority. certain that the pollution or discharges Members of the National Party suggest of waste of any type is kept within an inquiry of the type carried out by the acceptable li~its. The self-help element Building and Development Approvals of self-monitoring is not reflected in Committee into the operation of the the fee-setting structure, so there is no planning legislation. It should include bonus or incentive to the industry con­ the opportunity for interest groups of cerned. all sorts-industrial and community­ to make submissions. A further example of the problems with the existing legislation is revealed I know that the Environment Pro­ by the judgment of the High Court in tection Authority does change its regu­ the case involving the noxious dis­ lations on emission and fee setting charge from the Phosphate Company in from year to year, and that the methods Geelong. The judgment made stringent under which the calculations are made criticism of the Victorian Act. It said are subject to in-house review, but I that it contained inept drafting and was submit that generally-and I emphasize full of contradictions. The judgment the word "generally"-an organization also drew attention to the fact that the will change at a pace sufficient only to Environment Protection Authority can­ keep its nose clean and avoid pressure not consider the economic factors in for greater change, and at a pace that individual licence applications. The senior personnel can handle comfort­ effects on a business of stringent ably. Although that will mean that terms and conditions laid down by the some change will take place, it will not Environment Protection Authority, par­ necessarily mean that the community ticularly during establishment, cannot and industrial pressure groups that can be taken into account in setting licence reasonably be expected to· have an fees. That again illustrates that a degree influence on the rate or direction of of flexibility is lacking. change will have the opportunity to make the necessary input. The Environment Protection Auth­ ority, in a document entitled Disposal As I said, when the legislation was of Intractable Wastes in Victoria--a introduced, it was innovative and it draft strategy, published in January was necessary. It broke new ground. 1981, states, at page 8, line L: However, when legislation of that kind is brought into effect and new methods There is insufficient legislative control over are established, it is proper that from the stockpiling and storage of wastes. time to time a thorough review should That was a reference to intractable or take place. toxic wastes. At line N, the report The points I have made briefly states: clearly indicate that, at this time, the Industry groups and relevant Government Environment Protection Authority departments should form working parties to should be subject to just such a re­ consider mutual problems and developments in view, and that there should not be waste treatment technology and recycling. a destructive but a constructive review Honourable members will be well of the Act and the methods of opera­ aware of my interest in and the import­ tion of the authority with proper ance the National Party and I place on opportunity being given for those in­ recycling. Those two quotations from terested in its operation to have an a document recently published by the input. Environment Protection Authority in­ It is one area of concern to industry. dicates the difficulties it faces under Perhaps the National Party and I tend its present Act and the way in which to look more to industry and the prob­ it is operating at present. lems that industry faces than some 4000 Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) [COUNCIL other people may do. That is a reason­ Earlier remarks made indicated that able attitude on our part. We accept the Labor Party was not opposed to that other people have different values the Bill but was seriously worried and different needs and an equally about the financial s'ituation of the En­ reasonable input to make. However, vironment Protection Authority. My the whole situation adds up to the comments on that occasion revolved need at this time, because of the inno­ around the need for the authority to vative and original nature of the legis­ be well financed. The Bill increases the lation on this matter, for a full review, maximum licence fee from $5000 to with the opportunity being given, $16000 and I have the Minister's word through an inquiry similar to the that that reflects the restoration of BADAC inquiry, on the operations of the value of $5000 as at 1970. My the Environment Protection. Authority. party is quite happy about that. Industry demands it. However, I raise the whole question Victoria has considerable problems of funding of the Environment Protec­ in attracting industry. The rate of tion Authority. At the point at which growth in this State is well below the Bill was withdrawn, I had my that of a number of other States. Only gravest concern because at that point this morning in this House comments the Minister, in response to an inter­ by Sir William Knox, a leading Liberal jection, made it clear that the increase member of the Government in Queens­ in revenue which will flow from this land, were read out. Perhaps some measure will not be applied as an answer to them was given by the Min­ increase to the Environment Protection ister but, nevertheless, they reflected Authority. He did not say that in as unfavourably on Victoria's development many words. He tended to suggest that as compared with Queensland's. Con­ the whole increase would go to the stantly, there have been claims from Environment Protection Authority but industry that Victoria's regulations are that there would be no actual increase of such complexity, so difficult to in the Budget allocation for the auth­ understand and so inconsistent that ority. It was an interesting response, they are an inhibiting factor. That the sense of it being that the extra criticism mayor may not be fair. How­ moneys would go to the Environment ever, it adds force to the call I have Protection Authority but that there made for a promise from the Minister, would be a reduction of other moneys. prior to the passing of this Bill, that an inquiry will be held into the Envir­ I think the Minister was concerned onment Protection Authority in the about the withdrawal of the Bill in terms that I have moved, and so, I that he did 'not really believe it to have moved the amendment to the be a taxing measure. That is an inter­ Bill before the House. esting issue, but I will not canvass it at this point. The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Grimwade)-Mr Walker, on the Bill The Environment Protection Author­ and the amendment. ity was an important innovation. I have listened carefully to the contribution The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Melbourne 'made by Mr Evans and I appreciate Province)-The Bill was originally in­ his comments. It was an important troduced in this House and was with­ innovation of the early 1970s, the 1970s drawn on 20 October after it was ruled being what one might call the environ­ to be a taxation measure. It has since ment decade. I admire the legislation been reintroduced in the Assembly and and I have said so on other occasions. passed by that House without opposi­ There is significant frustration within tion. the Environment Protection Authority On the previous occasion on which because of the incapacity of that auth­ I spoke to this BiB, I indicated that ority to administer the legislation in my party would not oppose the mea­ the way in which it was intended to sure and I do so again today. I will be administered. It was 'a good Act in deal \vith the amendment in a moment. the early 1970s and it paved the way 2 December 1981] Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) 4001 for other States. Section 13(1) (b) of when I gave a talk at the Law Insti­ the Act puts it that the job of the tute, and a very impressive young man authority is: he is, al though I think he is a member "To be responsible for and to co-ordinate all of the Liberal Party. I say that with activities relating to the discharge of wastes a certain surprise. The Law Institute into the environment and the emission of noise has an active environmental law sec­ and for preventing or controlling polution and noise and protecting and improving the quality tion. When Mr Molesworth read the of the environment. report at that meeting last Monday I was impressed by the amount of Indeed, the Act recognizes that the work that that group has done on environment is public property, and pieces of legislation that have been or that is an important concept. The are to be introduced into Parliament. "polluter-pays principle" is to be imple­ I am sorry I had not made contact mented. In that regard, I quote briefly with that body before, because it has from a submission by the EPA to the done significant work. I intend to keep Public Bodies Review Committee in touch with it in future. February this year. That submission relates to the matter of "polluter pays". Mr Molesworth was quoted in the On page 4 of that submission, the Age of 5 August in an article written EPA states: by Jennifer Byrne under the heading The polluter should bear the expense of "EPA, a watchdog which prefers not carrying out measures decided by public to bite": authorities to ensure that the environment is in an acceptable state. In other words, the cost There simply hasn't been a sufficient number of these measures should be reflected in the of test cases even to get a proper interpretation cost of goods and services which cause pollu­ of the (Environment Protection) Act. The tion in production and,'or consumption". question is whether the EPA should be so con­ cerned about a couple of fanures in court, or It completes, the paragraph by saying: whether it should push for a fuller understand­ Consistent with this principle, licensees are ing of the law. Does it want to protect the required to meet the cost of their own waste reputations of a number of its own people, or treatment facilities, and monitoring their dis­ the reputation of the environmental laws of charges. They also pay a licence fee of up to this State? $5000 per annum to assist in processing and monitoring the licence (Section 24). That is a good point Mr Molesworth makes because there have been signs The Bill alters that fee to $16000. In in the past that the EPA has been the authority's own words, it sees loath to press for prosecutions unless itself and the Act as indicating that the it can be sure of success. He is sug­ poI1uter should pay. gesting that the Act should have been further tested, perhaps to the point The present corollary of this is that where the EPA did not always win. monitoring of their own discharges by That is a sensible procedure if the polluters has made it difficult to con­ powers of the Act are to be duct prosecutions, on the ground of tested. That is Mr Molesworth's self-incrimination. I have mentioned OpInIOn and I agree with it. this problem before. It ought to be corrected because, if the notion of The matter to which Mr Simon Moles­ self-monitoring is to be supported­ worth refers relates to lack of funding and Mr Evans spoke to this point­ and lack of staff for the authority. I it will be necessary to provide some have spoken about these matters before. way of enabling the EPA to use self­ The author of the article, Jennifer Byme monitored data in its prosecution of states: firms. Whatever the explanation, the effect is the same: to demoralize the staff and to confirm The chairman of the environmental the impression of a supine EPA. No one disputes law section of the Victorian Law Insti­ that co-operation is the right approach in the tute, Mr Simon Molesworth, was great majority of cases. Yet the exception creates the rule--the familiar core of eight or quoted in the Age of 5 August this 10 industries which continual1y breach their year in relation to the lack of prosecu­ licences do immense damage, both to the tions by the EPA. I had the pleasure environment and by examp~e. They hang tough, of meeti!lg Mr Molesworth recently they lobby, and they get away with it. 4002 Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) [COUNCIL The Bill would have done better to have authority and its administrative proced­ made realistic provi'sion for licence fees. ures to ensure that the proposed new The provision could have been signifi­ fees will be effectively 'applied. cantly greater than is proposed. Fines could also have been increased to The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON (Min­ directly benefit the authority financially. ister for Conservation) -The amend­ A strong Environment Protection ment moved by the National Party is Authority is necessary fur the strong certainly not without some validity. Of protection of a clean environment for course, one should always have a review people. of legislation. I am uncertain of what sort of inquiry is anticipated and I pre­ The Labor Party perceives merit in the sume it is a public inquiry. Even Mr amendment of the National Party. The Walker did not say'what sort of inquiry National Party wants a full inquiry into he would deem to be appropriate. In any the current administrative procedures Government department, legislation and within the authority to ensure that the amendments to it are constantly under proposed new fees will be effectively review and one could not 'allow any piece applied, and I could not agree more. My of legislation to lie in the belief that it worry is that the Minister for Conserva­ is totally satisfactory. That would be tion has indicated that 'they will not be running from issues far too easily. applied. Not only should the extra fees be applied but also the fines and licens­ The reaction of the National Party to ing system and the costs entailed should the Bill is one that is more or less be even more realistically related to the expected of it. It indicated that more funding of the authority. It is grossly emphasis should be placed on the con­ underfunded. Morale is low. The chair­ cern of industry than the concern of man, who was the author of the Act, is persons in1terested in achieving quality leaving the authority. I fear for the authority and its functioning because it of environment which, unfettered by law is being hampered on many grounds, not and non-licenced operations, would be the least funding and legally. destroyed. It is expected that the National Party, whose members and con­ The Hon. W. V. Houghton-The stituents generally live in the more chairman of the authority want's to go back to America. solubrious areas of the State and are not subjected as much to the problems The Hon. E. H. WALKER-The and damages to the environment caU6ed chairman is going to America and he has resigned. I am saying that there has by industry as dty dwellers, would take been a lowering in the morale of staff ,the attitude. it has. I am not saying that and a sense of frustration from the chair­ anyone lives in areas under extreme man, although he has not said that to me threat from pollutants, although, if one because he is a good public servant­ were to listen to Mrs Coxsedge, one that is my comment. Many of 'the best would gain the impression that she is people who have departed from the definitely not on the side of industry in authority have gone with a sense of environment protection. frustration, and I could quo~e those names. I do not think the honourable The Hon. D. M. Evans-The National gentleman will disagree that an authority Party accepts the need for legislation. that is administering a good piece of The Minister should make no mistake legislation is being hampered not only about that. by money but also legally. The amendment cans for an inquiry, The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON-How­ and that is reasonable because there ever, members of the National Party should be an inquiry. I have asked for do not appear to understand what pro­ an inquiry previously. The Labor Party tection of the environment mea'ns and does not disapprove the increases in fees how it is done. I am expressing the view and will not oppose the Bill, but it will that what the National Party has said support the motion of an inquiry into the appears to reflect representations made 2 December 1981] Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) 4003

to it from industry and not representa­ consider a public review of the legisla­ tions made to it by those who are con­ tion. For those reasons, certainly the cerned to ensure that, even at some Government would not intend to indulge expense to industry, the standard of the in a public review of the legislation. environment is maintained. It is almost universally not true that Any Act needs to be constantly the Environment Protection Authority, reviewed and the Environment Protec­ a's Mr Evans indicated, sets its standards tion Act is certainly in that ca'tegory­ on subjective measures. The authority it is being constantly reviewed, and is sets its standards on clearly-measur~d being reviewed now~ I a'ssure Mr Walker objectives. Mr Evans should read the that the provision of fines in the Act is State environment protection policies al'so under review and I shall be intro­ and the regulations of the authority ducing a measure 'to increase those fines, where he can determine the standards I expect, in the next session of Padia­ laid down for the various indicators of ment. pollutants. They are unambiguous. A public inquiry is not common when Further, it is true that the authority reviewing legislation, and I presume Mr does not seek to say in what way Evans means a public inquiry. It is not industry ought to meet its obligations the way in which a Government reviews under the Environment Protection Act. its l'egislation. Legi'slation is reviewed from within. What is provides is that the company should meet such and such a standard The Hon. D. M. Evans-I mean an for whatever indicator is under review inquiry similar to the Building and and how the conlpany meets it is the Development Approvals Co'mmittee. business of the company, but it must be The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON-The met. Certainly the Environment Protec­ BADAC proposals to a large degree tion Authority has, does and will assist encompass the environmental pro­ industry if it asks for assistance in de­ cedures because they put the appeals termining some of the ways in ·which the against licensing into a ·single tribunal, standards may be met. which is really one of the very important Generally speaking, it is the respon­ recommendations of the BADAC report, sibility of industry to meet the stan­ and, in a sense, it reflects the Environ­ dards, to determine how it will meet the ment Protection Act. standards and if it does not meet the If a public inquiry is to be held, and standards, there is machinery which can I say that is not the way in which be used to change those methods, but legislation ought to be reviewed, one that is all at the cost to the industry. would not do that until one had com­ The polluter pays principle is the prin­ pleted some of the principle aims of the cipal prinCiple of the Environment Pro­ Enviro:1ment Protection Act. One of tection Authority. those aims incorporates the State 1 indicate that the Government does environment protection policies for not accept the amendment moved by the different areas of the State and, until National Party. those policies are compkted, it would not be wise to have anything like a The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON (Higin­ public review of the legislation. Those botham Province) -I wish to contribute protection policies are underway. to the debate because I have at least two trouble spots in that area I represent. The air quality policy has been pro­ I shall speak in general terms because duced, as has the Latrobe Valley, and one Environment Protection Authority the Gippsland Lakes policy is in its licence issued recently is now the sub­ final stages, a's are the policies for other ject of appeal in the court. lakes. A lot of work is being done on the air quality environment protection The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. of the batrobe Valley and those policies Grimwade)-Order! In which case, Mr ought to be completed before one should Lawson cannot refer to it at all. 4004 Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) [COUNCIL

The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON-A A particular medium sized light industry discharging waste to air from eighteen points number of people living in that area I pays $4288. In contrast, one of the States represent have impressed on me the dif­ major automobile manufacturers discharging to ficulty they experience from industrial air from approximately 400 points pays $5000. fumes in the air. The oppressive stench Presumably, that automobile manufac­ that affects them sometimes is offensive turer will now have to pay $16000, but in itself, but they also fear the long-term there does seem to be an inequitable effects of the fumes on themselves and difference between air discharged from their children. Generally speaking we 18 points and air discharged from 400 know very little about the effects of points. I do not know what is discharged chemicals on people and their fears from the 400 points, but it seems to me could be well founded. that the small difference in the licence I draw the attention of honourable fee between the two plants is not jus­ members to the Love Canal disaster in tified. New York where it was discovered that I oppose the withdrawal of the Bill a housing estate had been built on a as I want it to go through. I want the covered over chemical dump and that Environment Protection Authority to ob­ caused severe health problems for the tain extra revenue in order that it can people who lived there. I also remind carry out its work. I urge the Minister honourable members of the minimata for Conservation to press for as much disease outbreak in Japan where people revenue as he can obtain for the purpose were affected by mercury and as a re­ of keeping the Environment Protection sult suffered cancer and other diseases. Authority in business and giving the Then of course we have the present con­ best service that it. can to Victoria. troversy over the effects of Agent The House divided on t.he question Orange on the Vietnam veterans. that the words proposed by Mr Evans It is a very important problem that to be omitted stand part of the motion the House is considering today and I (the Hon. F. S. Grimwade in the chair) . believe that the Environment Protection Ayes.. 19 Authority should be encouraged in its Noes .. 11 efforts to limit the dangers of discharges to the air. The Environment Protection Majority against the Authority should be adequately funded amendment .. 8 in order to do the work that it is sup­ posed to perform. AYES Mrs Baylor Mr Jenkins On the other hand, we have a diffi­ Mr Bubb Mr Lawson Mr Campbell Mr Radford culty with local industries when they Mr Chamberlain Mr Reid discharge to the air and cause difficulties Mr Granter Mr Saltmarsh to the neighbours. The Environment Mr Guest Mr Storey Protection Authority should not be en­ Mr Hauser Mr Ward Mr Hayward Tellers: couraged to put them out of business. I Mr Houghton Mr Long use as an example the Nylex factory in Or Howard Mr Stacey Cheltenham, which is not the subject of any court action. In 1980 the Nylex fac­ NOES Mr Baxter Mr Sgro tory employed 850 people and it had an Mr Butler Mr Walker annual pay-roll of $10 million so it is Mr Ounn Mr Walton not the sort of industry which one can Mr Kennedy Tellers:. treat lightly. What we need is a plan Mr Kent Mr Evans worked out by the Environment Protec­ Mr Mackenzie Mr White tion Authority to minimize the nuisance PAIRS to neighbours and also to assist those in­ Mr Crozier Mr Wright dustries to continue in their present po­ Mr Hamilton Mr Trayling sitions. Mr Hunt Mr Landeryou Mr Knowles Mrs Coxsedge In his second-reading speech the Min­ Mr Taylor Mr Eddy ister stated: The motion was agreed to. 2 December 1981] Environment Protection (Licence Fees) Bill (No. 2) 4005

The Bill was read a second time and it clear to industry that it was pollut­ committed. ing and would make it clear if it con­ Clause 1 was agreed to. sidered that the industry was releasing unacceptable. emissions. I know in­ Clause 2 (Increase in maximum dustries that set standards for them­ licence fee) selves that are more strict than the The Hon. W. V. HOUGTON (Min­ standards of the Environment Protec­ ister for Conservation) -In the course tion Authority. That was the important of the debate on the amendment, Mr point that should have been made in Lawson indicated that one should exer­ response to Mr Lawson's comments. cise care to ensure that the imposi­ tion of environmental protection and The clause was agreed to. compliance with licences imposed on The Bill was reported to the House industry should not be so burdensome without amendment, and passed as to put an industry out of business. through its remaining stages. That is clearly not the function of en­ vironment protection. Environment MOTOR CAR (MASS AND DIMENSION protection seeks acceptable standards LIMITS) (AMENDMENT) BILL for the environment, whether it be dis­ This Bill was received from the charges to water or air, or noise pollu­ Assembly and, on the motion of the tion. Those standards should be set and Hon. GL YN JENKINS (Minister of industry should be asked to comply Water Supply), was read a first time. with them. The Hon. GL YN JENKINS (Minister The issue is whether industries can of Water Supply) -I move: comply wi th those standards in a cer­ tain area and what the cost of it will That this Bill be now read a second time. be and, if they cannot do so, they are Honourable members will recall that obviously required to move to another earlier this year Parliament enacted the area. Industry is perfectly happy to Motor Car (Mass and Dimension live with the notion that if it intends Limits) Act 1981. to put the environment at risk it will In moving that the Motor Car (Mass have to move elsewhere. I wonder what and Dimension Limits) Bill be read a sort of conditions ihdustry would im­ second time, the Minister for Police and pose upon itself if the Environment Emergency Services said that in order Protection Authority were not in exist­ to provide adequate warning to the ence. I suspect that the conditions it manufacturers of large trucks, what is would impose would be stricter than called the "old code" would apply until the conditions that the Environment 1 July 1985. After that date, only Protection Authorty imposes because vehicles conforming to a certain type I know industries-- of axle configuration would be per­ The Hon. E. H. Walker-In some mitted to operate on the State's road cases! system. The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON-Yes, To achieve this, it was intended that only in some cases, admittedly. How­ only certain of the new sub-sections ever, industry would have to bear the proposed to be inserted by section 29 community and political heat of what (1) of the Act would be proclaimed at it did, not the Environment Protection an early date. I now have legal Authority, which at present bears that opinion that it is not possible to pro­ heat. claim part only of section 29 (l) to The HOD. E. H. Walker-Are you come into operation before other suggesting that we should not have the parts. Environment Protection Authority? In order to give effect to Parliament's The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON-I cer­ intention that the advantages provided tainly am not. What I am saying is that, by the revised mass and dimension if· there were no Environment Protection limits should be available to the trans­ Authority, the community would make port industry as soon as possible, 4006 Port of Geelong Authority Bill [COUNCIL clause 4 of the Bill would amend sec­ Commerce pressed the Government tion 29. This' would enable immediate strongly for the formation of a harbor effect to be given to the revised limits trust, but at that time the Govern­ while vehicles which do not conform ment believed it was not necessary, to the axle configuration prescribed by and permission was not granted. the new code will be permitted to con­ tinue to operate until 1 July 1985. Geelong has been constrained to a certain degree by the presence of a Clauses 2, 3 and 5 of the Bill concern large sand bar which runs from where changes to registration fees to main­ the Alcoa plant is right across the har­ tain consistency with the proposals bor. It has always been a constricting contained in the Transport (Fees) Bill. barrier to port activities. I understand I commend the Bill to the House. that at one time at low tide it was On the motion of the Hon. G. A. S. possible for farmers taking their cattle BUTLER (Thomastown Province), the to market in Melbourne to drive the deba te was adjourned. cattle over the sandbar and swim them 'through the small channel of some 50 It was ordered that the debate be yards on the other side, so even in adjourned until later this day. those early days it was important that dredging should begin. PORT OF GEELONG AUTHORITY BILL That took place, and the first chan­ nel was dredged in 1855. The history The debate (adjourned from Novem­ of the Geelong Harbor Trust began in ber 24) on the motion of the Hon. D. 1905 with the incorporation of the G. Crozier (Minister for Minerals and trust. Over the ensuing years the port Energy) for the second reading of this has developed and gone through Bill was resumed. various stages of intense activity as The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE well as quiet periods. Geelong was (Geelong Province ) -This Bill seeks to always a major port for the export amend the Geelong Harbor Trust Act of wool, and all honourable members 1958. It contains a number of amend­ know the extent of the grain exports ments to alter the name of the Geelong from Geelong. After the second world Harbor Trust to the Port of Geelong war with the establishment of the Authority and to bring the port of Shell Refinery, Geelong moved into a Geelong into line with other ports new era and began to export petroleum around Australia. The Bill gives powers products. to the new authority in terms of leas­ ing arrangem'ents, and, all in all, the The port of Geelong' has an interest­ Labor Party does not oppose the ing history which is well worth recall­ measure. ing. This measure will bring the port into line with other ports throughout It is important for honourable mem­ the world. Nearly every other port in bers to realize how vital the port of Australia is controlled by an authority Geelong is to that city. The whole these days; overseas companies regard history of Geelong is founded on its this as the correct terminology. The port. It was a stopping off station in Melbourne Harbor Trust changed its the early days, and its commerce grew name to the Port of Melbourne in about from the port. 1978; the Port of Fremantle Authority and many others have also been estab­ The history of the Geelong Harbor lished. Trust-as I will call it until the Bill becomes legislation-shows that before I wish to raise some matters of con­ the harbor trust became a body, the cern about the harbor trust, and fore­ first port activity that is on record shadow that I will move an amend­ is that a jetty was built in 1842 near ment. Over the past twenty years, the present location of the Eastern concern has been expressed in some Pier. In 1848 Geelong was declared a quarters about control of the port of free port, and in 1854 the Chamber of Geelong. At present it is controlled by 2 December 1981] Port of Geelong Authority Bill 4007 three Government appointed com­ number of Commissioners of the proposed Port mISSIOners. Many people, especially of Geelong Authority to five, of which- those in the trade union movement, (a) three shall be appointed by the Governor in Council, including-(i) one to be believe it has not had a broad enough appointed from a panel of names nomin­ representation and that much of the ated by the Geelong Chamber of Com­ industrial strife that has occurred over merce; and (ii) one to be appointed from the years could have been avoided if a panel of names nominated by the there had been a representative on the Geelong Trades Hall Council; and (b) two shall be elected by the ratepayers commission from the Trades Hall Coun­ of the City of Geelong. the City of cil or a representative of the unions Geelong West, the Shire of Corio and the involved with the activities of the Shire of Bellarine". port. Many people are concerned at the Honourable members are all aware structure of the Geelong Harbor Trust. of how devastating a holdup in a wharf As I stated, the trust has always been area is. Strikes of this kind affect a run by conservative people, and it is wide range of people. The strike does always difficult to ascertain how the not· stop at tbe wharves; it holds members are appointed. I have made up cargo and the import of numerous inquiries and asked ques­ materials that are required urgently tions of the Minister concerned. No one throughout the community. Small and can tell me who actually nominates the large factories scattered throughout proposed commissioners. The positions the State may have equipment and are never advertised and no one is supplies on board ship, and any stop­ asked to nominate. Rightly or wrongly, page has a devastating effect on the the feeling in the community is that the economy and the work force. trust is a bit of a club. The local people believe it is a job for people On the export side, Mr Baxter and "in the know", and this is one of the his colleagues in the National Party reasons why I moved the amendment. will be well aware of the difficulties I hope that in this way the stigma that are caused when one cannot get which rightly or wrongly is placed materials out of the country. It is im­ upon the commissioners will be re­ portant to ensure that every possible action is taken to avoid confrontation moved. on the waterfront. It takes two to make If people are nominated from repre­ a confrontation, and certainly not all sentative· bodies an improvement will strikes are justified. In many cases be effected and the three Government­ they are caused not by confrontation appointed commissioners will not re­ between union and management, but ceive unwarranted criticism. The activi­ sometimes because of unfortunate ties of the trust should be above demarcation disputes between one board, but it is important that they union and another. also appear to be above board. The current chairman of the commission Nevertheless, I believe it is important owns a large transport company. To -and honourable members on the my knowledge unsavoury dealings opposite side of the House will agree, have never taken place and there is no and I have heard Mr Hayward speak evidence to suggest that he might use on this matter-to have shop floor his position on the trust for the bene­ representation in management to pro­ fit of his business. However, there is vide input from people in the work place who have to do the physical always a shadow of doubt. labour and carry out the tasks that The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-You are make a port operate. That is one of quite happy to put a trade unionist the reasons why I propose to move an on the trust. amendment to alter the structure of the trust. As an amendment, I move: The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I shall come to that. The election of trust That all the word,s after "Tha·t" be omitted with the view of inserting in .place .thereof "this members from representative bodies Bill be withdrawn and re-drafted to increase the would act as an insurance. Last year 4008 Port of Geelong Authority Btll [COUNCIL a ridiculous situation existed when one In the amendment I propose that of the three Government-appointed the other two commissioners be elected trust members was away sick for a by ratepayers from the municipalities long time and the trust was run by of the City of Geelong, the City of two people. A trust dealing with $5 Geelong West, the Shire of Corio and million in revenue cannot be capably the Shire of Bellarine. The reason is run by three persons, let alone two that these municipalities have a sec­ people. How many other authorities of tion of foreshore under the control of this magnitude are run by three Gov­ the current Geelong Harbor Trust. I ernment appointees? The Port of Mel­ have spoken to councils and heard sub­ bourne Authority is structured so that missions from many people including it has a permanent chairman, who is ap­ the citizens of Geelong for whom the pointed by the Government. I do not port plays an important role. It would complain about that and the Govern­ be an advantage if people of Geelong ment should consider making the chair­ were able to be appointed to the man of the Port of Geelong Authority authority because they would feel they permanent. The chairman claims that were making a contribution. As I have he is permanent now because of the mentioned, port activity is interrelated large amount of time he puts into his with the community and provides spin work. offs, jobs and other developments. The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Do you Although the people in the surround­ mean a full-time chairman? ing areas may not actually derive a living from activities directly related to The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-Yes, the port, hundreds of them enjoy the he may be full time. As it is, the three spin-off associated with the Geelong commissioners are part time. I do not Harbor Trust. Another reason why I see anything wrong with the Govern­ moved the amendment is that the Gee­ ment making the role of chairman full long Harbor Trust has not accepted time especially when one considers how the responsibility for foreshore protec­ rapidly ports are developing. The Port tion in the way that it should. Although of Melbourne Authority has representa­ some work has been undertaken, the tives from the shipping, and export and areas under its control extend from the import groups as well as the Trades high water mark for considerable dis­ Hall Council. These organizations nom­ tances. inate prospective commissioners. I pro­ pose nothing more than that. I have Over the past twenty years the fore­ visited a number of ports around Aus­ shore has been leased to councils which tralia and all .of the authorities vary in have difficulty in maintaining them. the way in which they appoint commis­ Erosion has been a severe problem, sioners. Some are quite unusual. especially at Rippleside and Geelong West. Problems with seaweed and van­ In Hobart the commissioner is almost dalism are also experienced and the an hereditary title and one must have trust should accept responsibility in so many doilars worth of business to this area. This could be achieved by be appointed. That seems to work fairly appointing representatives of the local well. Commissioners on the north coast municipalities to the authority. The of Tasmania are elected by the local Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage ratepayers of the municipalities along Trust operates with elected commis­ the coast. In Sydney the situation is sioners, one of whom is Government­ completely different. The Maritime Ser­ appointed and the chairman has part­ vices Board controls all the ports in time duties. Two other commissioners New South Wales and has representa­ are elected from ra tepayers of the tion by exporters, importers and the municipalities within the trust's juris­ Trades Hall Council. There is nothing diction. That system works well. revolutionary about my proposal. It The amendment, if adopted, would contains nothing that has not been tried introduce a similar establishment for and found to be successful elsewhere. the Port of Geelong Authority. For a 2 December 1981] Port of Geelong Authority Bill 4009 long period, the Trades Hall Council through discussions and evidence pre­ has voiced its concern about the pre­ sented by the various shipping com­ sent management of the Geelong panies to the committee that many of Harbor Trust. When one examines the the facilities provided will not be used. figures of the trust, one notes that Indeed, nine years ago the roll-on-rol1- there has been a healthy increase in off facilities were constructed at revenue and, over all, the trust is Geelong, but those facilities have been operating quite efficiently. used only on few occasions. Those facilities have proved to be a complete The trade union movement is con­ waste of money. cerned about the trust's attitude to staff. Since the new management tech­ There must be a rationalization of niques have been introduced, there has Victoria's ports. It is ridiculous that the been a cutback in staff, which has various pOrts compete with one another concerned not only the trade union and use valuable loan funds to provide movement but also the former em­ direct competition. During a recent ploye~s of the trust. debate, the Minister for Minerals and Energy interjected and said, "What The Hon. W. R. Baxter-Has it im­ about a container crane at Portland?" proved efficiency? It is to be hoped that the marketing The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I do ability of the present chairman of the not believe it has. However, the in­ trust will attract additional trade to creased revenue would lead one to the Geelong container facility. Hence, believe that the new management no trade will be left for the Portland techniques have been effective. How­ facility. Although the facilities are ever due to the reduction in mainten­ needed, they are nO't feasible in the ance staff, much of the trust's equip­ present economic climate. ment is not being adequately main­ It is worrying to note that the Mari­ tained. Many of the maintenance staff time Services Board of New South are deeply concerned about the rapid Wales, which covers all the ports of deterioration of many of the trust's New South Wales, so that they are not facilities. In several years time the in direct competition, provides a moment of truth will arrive when that tremendous advantage through its lack of maintenance becomes obvious. facilities over those offered by the ports The trust is being inefficient by allow­ of Melbourne and Geelong. Recently I ing the maintenance work to slip visited the port facilities of New South behind. The Government must look Wales and it was obvious that the new beyond the increased revenue. facilities of the port of Botany would Another area of concern is the attract additional shipping business to present move to invest increased funds New South Wales. While the Victorian in facilities, which will not be fully Government persists with its present used and will not create an adequate fragmented policy on ports, Victoria financial return. The present Chairman will be in all sorts of strife. It is of the Geelong Harbor Trust Commis­ important that the ports be rationalized. sioners is an active person who has the If honourable members opposite interests of the port oJ Geelong at firmly believe in democracy, they heart. He is an enthusiastic person, should vote for the amendment to but his enthusiasm has led to the invest­ allow increased representation of the ment of $9 million in the establishment Geelong community on the proposed of a container wharf. I am worried that Port of Geelong Authority. If those large sums of money of this magnitude honourable members opposite reject have been spent on facilities that will the amendment, they will deny the provide doubtful financial returns. community of Geelong their democratic During the current investigation into rights. Indeed, if honourable members . port facilities by the State Development opposite believe firmly in industrial Committee, it has become apparent peace on the waterfront, they should 4010 Port of Geelong Authority Bill [COUNCIL vote for the amendment. The Govern­ labourers who engage in corruption, ment does not understand the needs blackmail and standover tactics. It is and aspirations of those people who a sorry state of affairs for Australia. work for the trust. There is no indus­ I do not think some people realize trial relations officer for the port of the ramifications of a waterfront strike. Geelong, but that officer is essential. For example, woolgrowers-and I refer It is for those reasons that I commend particularly to those who farm in the the amendment to the House. vast outback areas of Australia-may The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North have only one cheque a year coming Eastern Province)-Australia is an into the business, and that is their exporting nation and its ports are the wool cheque. The wool is sold by jugular vein. Unfortunately this nation auction ·and the normal turn of events is being throttled at its jugular vein by is that they can be paid eighteen days the machinations of left wing later. However, if on the sixteenth or dominated unions that operate on the seventeenth day there happens to be waterfront. a strike on the waterfront and that It is indeed distressing when the woolgrower does not get his cheque nation is brought to its knees by until the strike is over, which may be militant unions, as recently demon­ weeks and months, the farmer who strated at the port of Melbourne when, has worked out his cash flow on the during the past twelve months, strikes, basis that he will receive his wool picket lines and demarcation disputes cheque, cannot pay his debtors. As a severely disrupted the activities of that result, the local storekeeper and fuel port. That type of action is destroying supplier and so on are without their Australia's overseas reputation as a money. Mr Eddy laughs. reliable trader. Indeed, Australia's top The Hon. R. J. Eddy-I am laughing trading partner, Japan, is seriously look­ about those poor farmers! ing to other markets for its imports The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Mr Eddy because it can no longer rely on a con­ does not understand the real world, tinued supply of goods from Australia. and definitely he does not understand Businesses, both large and small, are the ramifications of waterfront indus­ being ruined because they cannot get trial trouble on the community. It sends goods off the wharf. people to the wall-not the multi­ The Hon. D. N. Saltmarsh-It is nationals, but the genuine hard-working pathetic! Australians who are being put out of business by this sort of activity. If The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-It cer­ the Bill, through the .reorganization of tainly is pathetic when people come the Geelong Harbor Trust can do any­ into electorate offices of members' of thing to assist in the smooth running Parliament during a demarcation dis­ of the port, a great deal will be pute on the wharf seeking assistance which, unfortunately, honourable mem­ achieved. bers cannot give, because these busi­ Geelong is a major port. I t is the nessmen know that the goods they main grain terminal and, in the past, so desperately require to satisfy clients has been a major wool exporting port. are on the waterfront, 'and that they It imports other major and numerous have been unloaded but. because of products. I have examined the amend­ the dispute, they are unable to obtain ment moved by Mr Mackenzie and I them. am intrigued. He suggests that one should appoint a trade unionist to the The Hon •. N.F. Stacey-Some people authority. It does not appear that the bribe to get their goods. appointment of Mr Slater to l'elecom The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-That is has done anything to alleviate the dis­ true. The whole situation is disgrace­ ruption of that organization and there ful. One only has to be reminded of are many other examples where union the activities of the waterfront unions officials being appointed to an official -the painters and dockers and wharf capacity has had no beneficial effect. 2 December 1981] Port of Geelong Authority Bill 4011 Mr Mackenzie :.suggests that a person would be good jobs for the persons from the Geel<\ng Chamber of Com­ who happened to get themselves merce should be "appointed. elected. The National Party opposes the amendment. The Hon. R. Ai.. Mackenzie-That is a different kettle ,of fish! The sitting was suspended at 6.26 p.m. until 8.4 p.m. The Hon. W. It BAXTER-I have not said that. If t~at is fair enough, The Hon. GL YN JENKINS (Minister why are grain producers, woolgrowers of Water Supply) -Prior to the sus­ and ship owners who use the port not pension of the sitting for dinner, during appointed? The representative from the the debate on the Port of Geelong Geelong Chamber of Commerce may Authority Bill, Mr Mackenzie moved not necessarily have anything to do a reasoned amendment to the effect with the port. The appointment of a that the Bill be withdrawn and representative of the Geelong Chamber redrafted to reconstitute the member­ of Commerce is not justified. It is ship of the Port of Geelong Authority. simply squaring off to try to get a The Government rejects that reasoned unionist on the authority. amendment. Mr Mackenzie suggests also that As a member representing the two ratepayers of municipalities sur­ Geelong area and a resident of that rounding the port should be elected city since 1943, I have taken a great to the authority-for a while I thought interest in the development of the port he was suggesting that these people of Geelong because I believe the port actually pay rates to the Geelong Har­ and its associated activities have been bor Trust-and, of course, they do the key to the development of the not! Geelong region. During that time there have been a number of very successful I would rather have three competent chairmen of the Geelong Harbor Trust, Government appointees running the including the current chairman. I port than some second-rate fellow who recall the first chairman with whom I happens to get elected on behalf of had much contact, the late J. Spencer ratepayers because he is popular and NaIl. He was followed by Mr L. L. who has no direct interest in the port Burch; and later Sir Roy Fidge, who -he merely happens to live near it­ died earlier this year not long after and does something that is completely he retired and, in the past two years, different from port activities. Mr Peter Blakiston. The Hon. D. E. Kent-What about Under those successive chairmen farmers on marketing boards? and the commissioners appointed by The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Of course the Government the Geelong Harbor those persons should be on those Trust has been outstandingly success­ boards-they own the produce and pro­ ful. I cannot understand why Mr duce the stuff the boards are selling! Mackenzie wishes to change the con­ That is a direct connection. There is stitution of the membership of the no connection between a ratepayer of trust. If the trust had been a failure, the Shire of Corio and the Port of and had failed to acknowledge and Geelong Authority. Such appointments anticipate the needs of the port of Gee­ open up the scene for a whole host long, and had failed to update the facili­ of other appointments-every authority ties of the port, perhaps there would be around the place could be examined so that anyone with the remotest con­ some justification for changing the nection could be represented on it. membership of the trust. It is strange Those organizations would be unwork­ that although Mr Mackenzie advocated able because the people in those ap­ the change he did not produce any evi­ pointments would not necessarily be dence that would indicate that a change interested in the organizations' activi­ would be desirable other than that ties, their efficiency and future. Those the present membership should be 4012 Port of Geelong Authority Bill [COUNCIL extended by adding members nomin­ Trust. By inference, he also back­ ated by the Geelong Chamber of Com­ handed the present chairman, Mr Peter merce and the Geelong' Trades Hall Blakiston, on the basis that he may Council and representatives of munici­ have some indirect conflict of interest. palities. In neither case did he produce any evidence to justify what he said. He Mr Mackenzie went on to indicate went on to say that the present com­ that at ports in other States represen­ missioners were neglecting the main­ tatives are elected or appointed to tenance and upkeep of part of the harbor trusts or port authorities on Geelong Harbor Trust-again a gener­ the basis that they represent munici­ alization. No specific instances were palities. As a former member of the brought forward. Public Works Committee I have visited a number of ports interstate. I can J knew there was concern in the recall visiting the port of Townsville Geelong Trades Hall Council and in where about thirteen municipal repre­ trade union circles in Geelong when the sentatives are the commissioners of present commissioners decided to dis­ the Port of Townsville Authority. The pose of tugs formerly operated by the committee discussed the authority's Geelong Harbor Trust. There was a method of appointing commissioners sound commertial and business reason and the way in which commissioners for that. The need for tugs of the size are normally appointed in Victoria. and number that the commissioners had Members of the authority said, "What­ was no longer warranted and the tugs ever you do, do not ever appoint repre­ were a commercial loser for the trust. sentatives of municipalities because It was decided to dispose of them, and they have no direct interest in what adequate and proper arrangements were the management of a port is about." ,made for the staff. J reassure the House I know there are variations on that that in my estimation and judgment the theme but as I have said recently­ people of Geelong are extremely happy both here and in other places regarding about the management of the Geelong water authorities and their manage­ Harbor Trust. ment-I do not think there is any definite or beneficial relationship be­ Mr Mackenzie also questioned the tween a municipality, and its represen­ decision of the present commissioners tatives and a port authority. They have to expand the facilities of the port for to run a very successful business and a container operation. That again was a commercial operation whilst having re­ judgment made by the commissioners gard to community interests. The cur­ after an over-all examination of the rent chairman, Mr Blakiston, and com­ future potential of the port of Geelong. missioners, Mr Gordon Murray, the I can recall many years ago when the deputy chairman who is a member of commissioners of the day took the deci­ the Geelong Chamber of Commerce, and sion to build the facilities and under­ Councillor A. B. Wood of the Shire took extensive dredging to accommo­ of Corio, who has been nominated on date the Shell oil refinery at Corio. That the basis that he represents the rural decision was the keystone of the suc­ interests in the trust, are, I believe, a cessful operation by the port in the very successful team. post-war years. For some strange reason Mr At a later date there were negotia­ Mackenzie seems to bear some personal tions with Alcoa of Australia Ltd, that animosity against the trust. He may be dreaded multi-national about which paying off IOU's for his Labor preselec­ members of the Labor Party opposite tion for the Geelong Province; I do not pretend to be so concerned, but about know. But it is strange that during which they are always prepared to line this 'debate Mr Mackenzie said there up when the jobs provided by the was an uneasiness in Geelong about dreaded multi-national are affected. the constitution of the Geelong Harbor When Alcoa decided to go to Geelong, The Hon. Glyn Jenkins 2 December' ,1981] Port of Geelong Authority Bill 4013

the harbor tru~t successfully negotiated The Hon. D. R. White-Wasted on for the constru<\tion of a wharf to serve a white elephant. that facility., The Hon. GL YN JENKINS-In the The decision to proceed with con­ judgment of Mr White, the greatest tainer facilities a~d associated services knocker in the history of Victoria, that was not taken lightly by the trust but is wasted on a white elephant. The after a full commeJ;cial appraisal of the Australian Labor Party will extract future of the port of Geelong. The com­ those funds and spend them in other missioners believe there is a place in areas of Government activity and in the system and within the container particular in heal th, housing and social operation in Australia for a second port welfare areas. The Labor Party is talk­ in Victoria to serve, in some cases, the ing about development and financial specialist users. One only has to think management but it will take away back a few weeks to recall the disas­ funds that have been created by the trous strike earlier this year on the Mel­ successful operation of the Geelong bourne waterfront, when, despite the Harbor Trust and will put those funds fact that a member of the trade union in the Jolly bank and disburse them movement was on the trust board, the not in accordance with any real com­ strike at the container terminal could mercial practice but in accordance with not be averted. That crippling strike Australian Labor Party policies. had a disastrous effect on the trade and commercial operations of the port The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. of Melbourne. It lasted many weeks, Grimwade)-Order! I am giving the and thousands of men and women were Minister a good deal of latitude. He put out of work and even today it is should be speaking to the amendment. having effects because materials and If he wishes to make a full reply to other products which should have been second-reading speeches, he can do so brought into Melbourne to service in­ in the Committee stage. He is talking dustries, such as the clothing and tex­ about the composition of the Port of tile industries, were delayed for many Geelong Authority. I can understand months. There is no particular advant­ that financial decisions made by the age in having a member of the trade commissioners involve much of what union movement on the Port of Geel­ . he refers to, but I cannot see that it ong Authority. relates to the matter currently being debated. I believe the Australian Labor Party, directly or indirectly, is seeking to The Hon. GLYN JENKINS--Suffici­ dominate the operations of the public ent to say that if the Australian Labor authorities in this State. Every day Party can get control of the various the new temporary leader of the Aus­ authorities by procedures outlined in tralian Labor Party in Victoria, Mr this Bill, it will facilitate the imple­ John Cain, talks about funds in the mentation of that party's Socialist finan­ public authorities in this State. If one cial policies. The people of Geelong looks at the document entitled "Pre­ would be interested to know what paring for Government-Financial Man­ would happen to the reserves of the agement and Economic Strategy" which Geelong Harbor Trust. Sound manage­ had a one-day cover, printed one day ment by the successful commissioners and Mr Wilkes was gone the next-it has led to the accumulation of valuable has a new cover but with the same reserves. In 1971 the net operating contents-one finds that the document surplus of the trust was about $735 000. refers to the Geelong Harbor Trust as In the next 'five years, owing to a down­ No. 7 in the non-finanCial bodies from turn in trade and a drop off in the which the Australian Labor Party would imports and exports of oil and associated extract reserves and spend them else­ products, the trust lost $1· 697 million. where. As at 31 December 1981 the Again I am demonstrating the need for harbor trust will have reserves of $13·7 sound financial management. Having million. the reserves, it could carry it. 4014 Port of Geelong Authority Bill [COUNCIL

The State Government and the South Wales. It is also interesting to people of Victoria do not contribute 1 note that the Grain Elevators Board in cent to the Geelong Rarbor Trust. It Victoria can operate at a substantially operates alone and is successful and is lower figure in regard to handling fees not subsidized in any way by the State. than the Grain Elevators Board in New During the four years from 1977 to South Wales. 31 December 1980 the trust accumu­ lated a further amount of $2·975 mil­ What I am putting to the Rouse is lion compared with the port of Portland the picture of a very successful harbour which is costing this state in excess of trust operating the port of Geelong. Mr $1 million a year. Mackenzie did not produce any evidence to justify a change in the constitution of Mr Mackenzie questioned the deci­ the trust. Re produced his own ideas, sion to expand the facilities of the port. and he has his own prejudices about That was a commercial judgment made the trust. In January or February after a full and proper appraisal, and last year, he made an allegation that I believe the commissioners are en­ the commissioners had not met for many titled to make such decisions. At the weeks. If he had telephoned them he end of this year the reserves are esti­ would have learnt that they had met. mated to be $10·2 million but in the When the commissioners indicated pub­ next two financial years $12·5 million licly that they had been meeting, Mr will be spent on extensions to port Mackenzie was strangely silent. facilities. If the funds are extracted by an ALP Government how can they be As I indicated at the outset, the Gov­ spent by the commissioners? ernment rejects this reasoned amend­ The commissioners are also under­ ment. I applaud the management exper­ taking investigations into the greater tise and the ability of the commissioners use of the port's facilities. They have over the years, also their senior staff been negotiating and have had discus­ and their workers. In a port like Gee­ sions with the Ministry of Transport long there is a great deal of good feeling on extending the standard gauge line and fellowship amongst the staff at the from Melbourne to Geelong. I believe Geelong Rarbor Trust. that will not only be a long term pos­ sibility but that it will ultimately be The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-You want completed. The standard gauge exten­ to talk to the fellows in the workshop sion should also be made to the port and find out what is going on. of Melbourne. This will mean the port of Geelong will have access to the The Hon. GL YN JENKINS-I know whole of the New South Wales railway quite a number of them. I have heard system. Mr Mackenzie knock Alcoa as an em­ ployer. Mr Mackenzie alluded to the success of the ports of New South Wales. The Hon. R. A. Mackenzie-No, you The facts are that the port of Sydney haven't; never! is absolut~ly clogged today. It cannot The Hon. GL YN JENKINS-It is easy accommodate the general cargo, the wheat and the coal traffic that needs to by inference to knock employers. The move through the central part of Sydney Geelong Rarbor Trust has been a suc­ to get to the wharves. Increasingly every cessful employer, and men and women year, the Victorian Grain Elevators have spent a lifetime working for the Board through the Geelong elevator, is Geelong Rarbor Trust, which is. not a handling more· and more of the New bad indication of the success of its South Wales crops, and the Chairman of operation. There is no need to change the Grain Elevators Board, Mr Ken the constitution of the Geelong Rarbor Gross, indicated to me recently that the Trust, and there is no need to delay the board, this year, would be handling a passing of the Bill. The Government record amount of wheat from New rejects the reasoned amendment. The Hon. Glyn Jenkins 2 December 1981] Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill 4015 The House divided on the question LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) that the words proposed by Mr BILL Mackenzie to be omitted stand part of Thi's Bill was received from the the motion (the Hon. F. S. Grimwade in Ass'embly and, on the motion of the Hon. the chair). A. J. Hunt (Minister of Education), for the Hon. HAD DON STOREY (Attorney­ Ayes .. 24 General) , was read a first time. Noes .. 11 MOTOR CAR (AMENDMENT) BILL Majority against the amendment .. 13 Tl:le debate (adjourned from Novem­ ber 26) on the 'motion of the Hon. F. J. Granter (Minister for Police and Emer­ AYES gency Services) for the second reading Mr Baxter Mr Knowles of this Bill was resumed. Mr Block Mr Lawson Mr Bubb Mr Long The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Thomas town Mr Campbell Mr Radford Mr Chamberlain Mr Saltmarsh Province) - Th~s is one of a series of Mr Dunn Mr Stacey Bills concerning motor vehicles that have Mr Evans Mr Storey been introduced in an effort to deal with Mr Granter Mr Taylor the problem of the increase in the road Mr Hauser Mr Wright Mr Houghton toll. The Bill seeks to increase the Dr Howard Tellers: penalty imposed for certain offences. Mr Hunt Mrs Baylor Mr Jenkins Mr Ward I am sure all honourable members are concerned about Ithe loss of life and NOES injuries suffered on our roads. There is no doubt that every honourable member Mr Butler Mr Trayling would agree that urgent action must be Mrs Coxsedge Mr Walton Mr Eddy Mr White taken to overcome the intolerable Mr Landeryou Tellers: accident rate that has so many tragic Mr Mackenzie Mr Kennedy consequences for Victoria. I congratulate Mr Sgro Mr Kent the Minister on introducing these measures to attempt to deal with the PAIRS problem and for the concern he has Mr Crozier Mr Walker shown about the increasing road toll. Dr Foley Mr Thomas Clause 6 will increase the monetary The motion was agreed to. penalty for a first offence of reckless or The Bill was read a second time, and dangerous driving from $360 to $1000. passed through its remaining stages. That is a large increase, but it is warranted in the circumstances and I hope it will act as a deterrent. I am sure FRIENDLY SOCIETIES all honourable members will have (AMENDMENT) BILL witnessed motorists driving at reckless Thi·s Bill was received from the and dangerous speeds, and it is to be Assembly and, on the m'otion of the hoped that the increase in the penalty Hon. A. J. Hunt (Minister of Education) , will have the desired effect. for the Hon. HADDON STOREY (AttorneY-General), was read a first The holders of probaltionary licences time. are more than two and a half times more likely to be involved in serious accidents that the holders of standard GEELONG WATERWORKS AND licences. Clause 10 of the Bill will amend SEWERAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL the provisions relating to the holders Thi1s Bill was received from the of probationary licences who appear Assembly and, on the motion of the Hon. before the courts on 'a driving offence GLYN JENKINS (Minister of Water within the three years during which they Supply), was read a first time. hold probationary licences and will mean 4016 Motor Car (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL that the driver would lose his licence The Hon. W. V. Houghton-Where even if he had had his probationary is that penalty provided? licence for only two weeks, and rightly so. The Hon. R. J. EDDY-I am suggest­ ing that the Minister should consider In clause 4 there will be a change in this. the wording from "within the last pre­ ceeding three years" to "within any The Hon. W. V. Houghton-We may period of three years", which means that support you if you can tell us which the motorist will lose his licence. If these clause you are dealing with. young drivers break the law, they must The Hon. R. J. EDDY-I am suggest­ be taught to respect the road laws, and ing that, instead of people being sent the only way in which to do that is to places like Pentridge, there should through this kind of provision. The be some other institution in which proviso is also altered by substituting they can be placed. Clause 7 of the Bill for the words "within the las1t preceding prescribes a minimum licence cancella­ twelve months" the words "within the tion period of four years for any per­ last twelve months of that period of son convicted of a second or subse­ three years". quent offence of driving under the Clause 4 of the Bill deals with de­ influence of intoxicating liquor or of merit points. Once a driver accumu­ a drug. lates twelve demerit points as a result I suggest to the Minister that where of 22 prescribed offences, the Chief a driver has a family to support he Commissioner can suspend his licence be· permitted to work during the normal for twelve months. I commend the working hours and should be punished Minister on amending this provision. only by week-end imprisonment, un­ The Bill amends the existing legis­ less he has been convicted of a more lation to provide that a driver who serious offence such as culpable driving has a blood alcohol content of more or manslaughter. Knowing the Minister, than ·05 may be disqualified from driv­ I believe he will give consideration ing for a period of two to four years. to this matter when further amend­ In addition, a driver who refuses a ments of the legislation are being con­ breathalyzer test or a preliminary sidered. breath test or who refuses to accom­ The Bill is long overdue. I hope it pany an officer to a police station may will come into operation before the be disqualified from driving for a period Christmas holiday period because that of four years. This Bill will make all is the danger period for road accidents. motorists stop and think before par­ The Opposition applauds the Bill. How­ taking of too much alcohol. ever, I foreshadow that I will move an Many drivers canot afford to lose amendment in the Committee stage. their licence, because their livelihood The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North depends upon their driving. In addition Western Province) -The National to losing his licence, a driver may be Party supports the Bill. It proposes a imprisoned for a second or third number of unrelated amendments to the offence. I put it to the Minister that principal Act to improve road safety there should be some other form of in Victoria. The House has had several institution, apart from a prison such opportunities during this session to as Pentridge, to which a magistrate fully debate road safety and I shall or a judge can send a driver where not reiterate all of those debates. Road that driver is charged with some safety was debated as recently as offence other than culpable driving, yesterday on another measure. I then dangerous driving or manslaughter as complimented the Minister for Police a result of having a blood alcohol con­ and Emergency Services for taking new tent which is above ,05. I hope the action on child restraints in the rear Minister will give consideration to that seats of vehicles and for the use of suggestion in the future. !'udar. This measure goes further and The Hon. R. J. Eddy 2 Decem;ber 1981] Motor Car (Amendment) Bill 4017 tightens up a number of loopholes in expect that those instructors are quali­ present offences. Always, there is some­ fied to teach and that they teach one smart enough to find a way around approved methods of driving. laws, and Governments are hard pressed to make laws that are com­ There is much debate on the methods pletely watertight. When some bright of teaching driving and the ways in spark finds a loophole, it is reasonable which motor vehicles can be handled. that the loophole should be closed at The Road Safety Committee has the earliest opportunity. received conflicting advice. As I am interested in road safety, I have ask.ed The Bill highlights the special prob­ professional drivers, racing drivers and lems of probationary licence holders. others, for their views on the way in A young driver on probation is sub­ which driving should be taught and ject to much greater scrutiny by the there is considerable variance in the Police Force, but, as the Minister indi­ forms of even handling a steering cated, for every single accident involv­ wheel. For instance, one group will ing a standard licence holder there are teach a person to hold the steering 2'6 casualty accidents involving pro­ wheel firmly and to turn the wheel as bationary licence holders and that is a fas as possible without moving one's significant increase. It can be related hands on it and the other group will to lack of experience and to the fact teach one to keep one's hands at the that one can drive and drink legally ten to two position and pass the wheel at exactly the same age. through them. Those are basic differ­ Much debate has occurred on whether ences. there should be a division between the If persons are to teach others to ages· of legal drinking and driving in drive, they must be qualified to do so, Victoria. The Road Safety Committee, and the provisions of the Bill will of which I am a member, has studied ensure that these persons obtain some this issue in other States. The argument qualifications and hold a driving for lowering the licensing age can be instructor's licence. However, this discounted because research undertaken measure should not be used as a vehicle by the committee has demonstrated to make a grab for money resulting that there is a corresponding increase from the fees payable. If these persons in the number of deaths and accidents are to be licensed, some form of test­ with the increased number of drivers ing and standard must be adopted. that would be on the road, so that no Under the Bill, schools will be real significant benefit is to be gained. exempted from the requirement to pay the licence fee although people teach­ The Tasmanian measure may have ing driving in schools will be required some merit. In that State probationary to be of a certain standard. Many of drivers are precluded from having any them have passed through the Shep­ alcohol content in their blood while parton driver training complex. driving. It is a tough measure and has The National Party supports the pro­ been recommended for Victoria by the visions. They will assist in dealing with Road Safety Committee, which the the problem on Victoria's roads and I Government is considering. In contrast hope the Minister will be prepared to to Victoria's existing laws on a blood introduce further measures that might alcohol content of 0'5, drivers during reduce the high level of accidents and their first year of probation would not deaths on our roads. be allowed to have any alcohol content The motion was agreed to. in their blood. The Bill was read a second time and I refer to the licensing of driving committed. instructors. If driving instructors are to take money from the public, from Clause 1 was agreed to. people of all ages, for their services Clause 2 (Surcharge on licence after the community should reasonably prescribed offences) 4018 Motor Car (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Minister The reason I raise this is that the for Police and Emergency Services)­ Minister for Police and Emergency I thank both Mr Eddy and Mr Dunn Services should take this into con­ for their contribution. As Mr Dunn said, sideration. debates on road safety measures have The Hon. W. V. Houghton-To whom occurred recently and at other times do they have to pay the $700? and honourable members have been in total agreement on those measures. The Hon. G. A. SGRO-It is not for Many suggestions have been made by me to say who they are paying, but honourable members, and they are all legally it costs only a reasonably small valuable. However, the Government amount to obtain a driving licence, but does not .wish to act entirely on the people came to see me tonight, who suggestions that have been made, have come from overseas, and they although they will be considered. had to pay $700. What I am putting is that racketeering still goes on in the Both Mr Eddy and Mr Dunn have issue of driving licences and that is made constructive suggestions and I what causes a lot of deaths on the assure them that their comments will roads. People have a right to drink be considered when future legislative and get drunk if they want to, but measures are being drafted. Mr Eddy they do not have a right to slaughter suggested tha t penalties for some people on the roads. offences should perhaps be treated differently and his suggestion will be Clause 3 clearly provides for the examined. He mentioned also that he issue of conditional driving instructors' considered the Bill should be pro­ licences. The people who obtain in­ claimed before Christmas so that people structors' licences do so for the sake may realize their responsibilities not of the money. They do not teach people only to themselves but also to other to drive and I submit, that there should people. Whether the Bill can be pro­ be strict control over those people claimed before Christmas, I am not who obtain instructors licences. Many sure, but the Government will endeav­ of these people take advantage of the our to give it publicity before it is fact that they can speak three or four proclaimed so that people may know languages and they promise the world of the intentions of the Government. to those people who arrive here from All honourable members are in virtual overseas. I want the Minister to exer­ agreement .with the Bill and its pro­ cise strict control over those people­ visions, and I thank them for their not the drivers but those people who support. issue the licences. The clause was agreed to. The Hon. W. V. Houghton-The Gov­ Clause 3 (Instructors' licences) ernment agrees with Mr Sgro, but who are they? The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne North Province) -Only a madman The Hon. G. A. SGRO-The Minister would oppose the Bill at this time of for Conservation knows very well that the year. As I said before, the people I will not name the people here. I had who issue instructors' licences do not a representative here tonight who understand the people that they are claimed he had paid $700 to get a training. As I stated before, in this driving licence. I am just informing State we have thousands of people who honourable member~ what goes on in arrive from overseas and because of the licence field. I do not condone the their jobs they need a driving licence. practice and I hope the Minister will These people who come from overseas act. The Opposition supports the Bill have to pay $700 to get a licence to and wants it passed, but strict controls drive a motor car. They do not want should be exercised over the people to use 'a motor car because they want who issue these licences and it is not to speed on the road but they have to good enough to condemn the people have a motor car because without it who have the licences; we should con­ they cannot get jobs or go to work. demn the people who issue the licences. 2 December 1981] Motor Car (Amendment) Bill 4019

Some of those people who obtain was about to inform Mr Sgro that if instructors licences take advantage of tha t was the case, those people had those people who arrive in this country been got at by the driving school. and who are desperate to obtain a However, I would be wrong if I said driver's licence. In the future I hope that because I am not sure that that that the Minister and the police, before is the allegation that Mr Sgro is they issue a licence to instructors, making. As I understand it, Mr Sgro make sure that these people do not has indicated that some people are participate in the racketeering that charged $700 virtually for the issue of goes on. an instructor's licence. A similar alle­ ga tion was raised many years ago and There is another matter I raise on honourable members may recall those clause 3. The Minister would know that anegations, but I thought that practice over the past twelve months, more had been cleaned up and that that was than 35 000 people have arrived from a thing of the past, but apparently it overseas as tourists to Victoria. Those has reared its head again. people have international driving licences, but although the licences are I will be prepared to speak to Mr good enough in every other part of Sgro later to ascertain whether he can the world they are not recognized in give me some information. If he does Victoria and the holders of the licences not desire to do so, he need not, cannot drive a motor vehicle in Vic­ because it is his information and he toria. has the right to make his allegations. However, I am sure he will want to The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. W. M. help the people whom he represents, CampbeU)-Order! I remind Mr Sgro people who come from other countries that the Committee is dealing with and who for one reason or another are the issue of instructors' licences and in desperate need of obtaining a driving not people who have licences issued licence. and Mr Sgro has tried to help to them. Mr Sgro is now not speaking them. about instructors' licences but about people who come to this country with I refer now to the international international driving licences. driving licence. The 35 000 people who come to Victoria from various over­ The Hon. G. A. SGRO-For the seas countries are entitled to obtain second time I thought J ought to ask a three-month driving licence under the the Minister to consider giving these international rules if they are settling people who arrive here as tourists and here, but can obtain an international spend millions of dollars, the oppor­ licence for a longer period if they tunity to drive motor cars because the are just passing through the country. driving licences which they have and J believe there is provision for them which enables them to drive motor to obtain an international driving cars are recognized in every other part licence when they arrive here, but if of the world, so they should have the Mr Sgro has any problems in that same right as we have when we go regard I shall be prepared to help him. overseas. The clause was agreed to, as were I hope the Minister wiIJ be very strict clauses 4 to 7. with the issue of instructors' licences Clause 8 (Licences in certain cases because there is still racketeering going to be restored only by order of Magis­ on in this State. trates' Court nearest residence of The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Minister offender) for Police and Emergency Services)­ The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Thomastown When Mr Sgro first raised the matter, Province) -I move: I thought initially that he was saying Clause 8, line 31, after this line insert- it was costing people $700 to go '( ) After section BoF (l3) of the Principal through a driving school to get a Act there shall be inserted the following sub­ licence. Apparently that is not so. I section: 4020 Motor Car (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL

"(13A) Upon proceedings against any person these recommendations, I have now for an offence referred to in sub-section ( 1) evidence by or on behalf of the defendant as decided that the test case, or cases, to the percentage of alcohol in his blood on should be referred to" a superior court other occasions than the occasion in respect of in order to gain a ruling on whether which he is charged shall not be admitted by the judgments are correct or incor­ the court in those proceedings unless a sample of that person's blood has been taken and rect. About 33 out of 900 of these delivered to a member of the police force cases have been successful. I am not pursuant to the provisions of sub-section happy about that situation at all, but (13).".' I indicate to Mr Eddy that the Gov­ The Act contains a provision under ernment will oppose the amendment which if the breath of a person is that he has initiated. However, the analysed, he can request a blood Government will consider this matter sample to be taken. The amendment for a period of six months. I do not proposed is to ensure that an inde­ consider that Parliament should rush pendent breath test would not be ad­ in and make further amendments to missible evidence unless at the time the Act until it is sure about the matter. of the offence a sample of the blood The Police Force has attempted to was also taken to substantiate the read­ have a test case in certain cases, but ing of the breath analyser. there have been various constraints that have more or less frustrated its The Government must decide efforts. However, with the co-oper­ whether it should appeal against a ation of my colleague, the Attorney­ judgment in one of the cases in which General, and some expert witnesses a simulated test was used to reduce that the Crown will engage, I suggest the value of the evidence of the breath to the House that this matter be analyser used at the time of the deferred for six months and, if need offence. be, I will strongly advocate amending I hope the Government and the legislation if it proves necessary, National Party will seriously view the which the Government will consider. intention of the proposed amendment. The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Minister Western Province)-I have not had for Police and Emergency Services)­ sufficient time to consider all the im­ I realize the intent of the amendment. plications of the amendment that Mr It was canvassed in another place and Eddy has proposed to the House. How­ the Minister in charge of the Bill in ever, after what the Minister has said, that place indicated that the Govern­ I realize that there is a loophole. ment would consider the proposition The Hon. N. F. Stacey-It is not a that" had been put forward and would loophole. be prepared to make a statement on it. It has concerned me for some time The Hon. B. P. DUNN-People can because people have contested the engage an independent tester, carry readings and virtually, by their income out a simulated test and use that evi­ or wealth, have been able to engage dence in a court hearing in their expert witnesses who have given defence. If that situation continues to evidence that has cast doubt in the occur, Parliament must take action to Magistrates Court on whether those deal with it. However, the undertaking persons w"ere above '05 or their rele­ that the Minister has given to the vant blood alcohol level readin~s. House is Significant and is probably the best way to handle the matter. It is This matter and the publicity that a fairly technical area to try to tighten it received concerned me so much up. Honourable members should ensure that I set up an expert committee, that it is done with 100 per cent headed by Mr Michael Walsh of my effectiveness. department. The committee studied the court rulings and the implications of Mr Eddy would probably agree with the expert witnesses and made certain that point. I compliment him for bring­ recommendations to me. Following ing forward the amendment because ·2 December 1981] Motor Car (Amendment) Bill '4021 this is an area that needs to be given come back to the House with a attention. Even though the amendment further recommendation that there may not be accepted by the House and should be a significant period of included in the proposed legislation, retraining with evidence of applicants it has certafnly led the Government for licence restoration having passed a to give an undertaking to consider the certain qualification so that the person matter and if the Government can who has committed an offence has design the way in which Mr Eddy's proved to have learned the error of his intention can be achieved, that will be or her ways, and the licence can be re­ implemented. I consider that the under­ stored by the courts with confidence. taking is sufficient and, instead of pass­ ing the amendment tonight. the The Hon. J. W. S. RADFORD National Party hopes the Minister (Bendigo Province) -I shall speak on carries out the undertaking and, if the restoration of licences. Losing a necessary, acts on it in the immediate licence is a great disability for many future. people who live in country and outer metropolitan areas. Indeed, there is a The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Thomastown strong feeling in this area that a work Province) -I thank the Minister for permit should be provided for people the suggestion he has made in inform­ who lose their licences because of '05 ing honourable members that he will blood alcohol content offences in which reconsider the amendment I have the magistrate will be able to exercise moved over a period of six months. his discretion and permit those people I thank the Minister for doing so. to use a limi ted licence for certain hours so that they can attend their The amendment was negatived. work place or, in the case of a small The Hon. D. N. SALTMARSH businessman, continue with their (Waverley Province) -1 shall speak business. about the restoration of licences after I realize that 1 may be stretching certain offences occur. This matter was the indulgence of the House in speak­ raised in an earlier debate in the House ing on these lines, but I consider that and some recommendations have been the scope of the Bill can cover this made from people in the Magistrates point, with the Minister's indulgence. Court to the effect that the Govern­ As the Minister will be well aware, ment should be setting higher stand­ most of the offences involving '05 blood ards on testing required for the restora­ alcohol content occur in social hours tion of licences. Frequently, after dis­ and, as a consequence, people suffer qualification of a licence, whether for in their employment. 1 have seen ex­ dangerous driving or whatever, it has amples in many country areas and, I been suggested that because of the evi­ dare say, outer metropolitan areas, dence about the offence that has been where a family or a group of families, brought before the court, there is a need which may involve a couple of gener­ for a period of rehabilitation and train­ ations, are at a disadvantage because ing for drivers. The training should be no public transport is available. That undertaken whereby evidence can be situation usually occurs when, for a given that the person whose licence has variety of reasons, a person, who is been cancelled has demonstrated that usually a male, loses his licence on a a reI earning process has taken place, '05 blood alcohol content charge. perhaps through the excellent facili­ He will either be out of a job or per­ ties provided by Dr Santamaria at St haps his wife might have to go to the Vincent's Hospital, or some other form expense of obtaining a licence. Then of retraining and rehabilitation. she would be faced with the problem of I urge the Minister to give serious having a licensed driver alongside < her consideration to this aspect in the while she was learning to drive and if same way that he has undertaken to the wife is already employed she has consider the proposal moved by Mr to take the husband to and from work Eddy. He may also be prepared to besides her own travel. 4022 Gift Duty (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL

The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. W. M. It also provides that gifts made be­ Cam:pbell)-Order! I have been very tween 1 January, 1982, and 1 January, generous to Mr Radford. I do not think 1983, shall be totalled with prior gifts he should go beyond the bounds of that for assessment. Any gifts made after generosity. 1 January, 1983, will not be assessed for taxation purposes. The Hon. J. W. S. RADFORD­ Thank you, Mr Chairman. I ask the Regrettably, the Minister'S second­ Minister to take this point on board reading speech contains no indication and give it serious consideration. of the total numbers and percentages involved in these transactions, and not The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Minister even any indication of the total amount for Police and Emergency Services)­ of money involved. If one looks up that Mr Radford's points are noted. I wish information in the Budget, one finds to comment on the matter raised by Mr that receipts for last year were Saltmarsh regarding rehabilitation $894000 and for this year, $800000, centres. These centres have consider­ which is a reduction of $94000. Al­ able merit. There are two of them in though it may be considered by some the metropolitan area. It would be diffi­ people to be a princely sum, it is not cult to put them in country areas. likely to bring the Government down. The Hon. B. P. Dunn-But you could It may be said that gift duty use existing hospital facilities. is a way of avoiding probate duty and The Hon. F. J. GRANTER-That is providing capital gain. In many ways also a good suggestion. There is con­ gift duty runs in tandem with probate siderable scope for the further advance­ duty. Recently when the Probate Duty ment of these centres, especially in the Bill was debated in this House an metropolitan area. I have heard from amendment was moved setting out a people who have attended the centre number of items that the Labor Party run by Dr Santamaria, at St Vincent's wished to be implemented. That pro­ Hospital, and they speak highly of the posed amendment was moved to bring course they went through and believe about a situation that affects only about that it has done them a great deal of the top 4 per cent of the people in good. I shall certainly consider these the State-the few who make their types of centres in any future legisla­ proper contribution, within their estab­ tion. I do not think legislation is needed lished capacity, towards the cost of pro­ to establish them; they can be set up viding State services. The State loses without legislation, and they are well $54 million in revenue in this way. worth while. In recent months honourable mem­ The clause was agreed to, as were bers have seen how the burden of this the remaining clauses. lost revenue is transferred to persons The Bill was reported to the House in other sections of the community who without amendment, and passed are least able to afford it, including through its remaining stages. people on average incomes who have had to pay a succession of increased GIFT DUTY (AMENDMENT) BILL tariff charges for gas and electricity, motor registration charges and various The debate (adjourned from Novem­ other taxes and imposts. Those people ber 25) on the motion of the Hon. cannot afford it, and the Labor Party Glyn Jenkins (Minister of Water Sup­ believes that the small percentage of ply) for the second-reading of this Bill people in the community who have to was resumed. . pay probate duty and gift duty ought to The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley continue to do so. Province) -This Bill increases the ex­ emption level for gift duty from $20 000 The Labor Party moved an amend­ to $50000 beginning from 1 January, ment to the Probate Duty Bill, and I 1982, and provides for the total aboli­ foreshadow that I shall move an tion of gift duty from 1 January, 1983. amendment to this Bill in a moment. 2 December 1981 ] Gift Duty (Amendment) Bill 4023

The Labor Party believes that all taxes take place when a child is married or should be based on the capacity to pay, at some time during their life when a and certainly probate and gift duty are gift might be appropriate. The imposi­ in that category, but now men, women tion of gift duty means that the State and children' throughout the entire gets its hands on that money and takes State are being forced to carry the a percentage of it. burden. The Hon. C. J. Kennedy-So it I move, as a reasoned amendment: should. That all the words after "That" be omitted with the view of inserting in place thereof The Hon. B. P. DUNN-I am sur­ "this Bill be withdrawn and re-drafted so as prised that the honourable member to maintain existing general exemptions and agrees with that. Why should the Gov­ include provisions to exempt transfer of- ernment get its hands on the money? (a) the family home into joint ownership If a person works hard and manages with a de jure or de facto spouse; and to save a sum of money during his or (b) the family farm between full-time her lifetime, why should he or she be farmers and members of their immediate families". taxed again if the money is passed on to another person? Gift duty is unfair, The Hon. B. P. Dunn-What does and the sooner it is done away with de jure mean? the better. The amendment is a sop. When I asked Mr Kennedy to define The Hon. N. F. Stacey-CCOf the day" a "family farm" and a "full-time -like soup! farmer" he illustrated that he had no The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY-No; as idea of the meaning. If the Labor Party those honourable members who learned has a definition of a "full-time farmer" French at school will know, the word why not inform honourable members? jour means "day", but the expression Obviously the Labor Party is not serious de jure means, I think, "by law". We about the amendment and it is a sop to certainly know what de facto spouse ensure that its policies gain acceptance means; that is where a couple co­ in the community in view of the com­ habitate over many weeks, months or ing election. years, but nevertheless a de facto The people of Victoria will not be spouse ought to be regarded as in the fooled. A Labor Government would same category as a legal spouse. seek to reintroduce gift duty. One could A "family farm" might involve a forget about family farms and full-time person working in the range of 35 to farmers then. One could forget about 40 hours a week. The average member family homes and de facto spouses as of Parliament on this side of the House well! The Labor Party has a Socialist works approximately 100 hours a week, fixation that there are wealthy people and the playboy part-timers on the in the community and the money earned other side would not work as long as by successful people who have saved this. The Labor Party also includes and built up assets should be spent on full-time farmers and members of their welfare programmes. immediate families in the exemption. If the Labor Party becomes the Gov­ The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North ernment it will seek to reintroduce Western Province) -I am horrified by the amendment moved by Mr Kennedy, probate duty, gift duty and capital which seeks to ensure that gift duty gains tax. If that happens Victoria will continues in Victoria. The amendment go further backwards and people will is similar to that proposed when the leave this State in even larger numbers House was dealing with probate duty. than they are now. The reintroduction Gift duty is an unfair tax because, if a of those taxes will lead to a lack of person works all his or her life and incentive by many of the people who manages to save a sum of money, that create job opportunities. The people person should be able to make a free with incentive generate the economy. gift to his or her children. This could Mr Kennedy and his party want to get 4024 Gift Duty (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL their hands on the property of people to beneficiaries after death. If the who have incentive and drive and to Government abandons probate duty, it rob them of what is rightfully theirs. is complementary that gift duty is also I commend the Government for abandoned. The Labor Party is offering abolishing gift duty. The measure has a sop to the primary producer. It is a taken a long time to appear, but that veiled gift because the Labor Party does duty should be eliminated by 1 January, not define "family farm". 1983. I trust that no future Victorian The Labor Party does not define a Government will reintroduce gift duty "full-time farmer" or what constitutes or probate duty after they have been members of the immediate family. The abolished. The State of Victoiria will be amendment contains vague generaliza­ better off without these taxes. tions. As Mr Stacey pointed out, the The Hon. N. F. STACEY (Chelsea Labor Party is happy to talk about Province)-Mr Kennedy is in the soup family farms and full-time farmers, but with this amendment. He proposes that at the same time it discriminates family homes and family farms operated against small businesses and profes­ by full-time farmers be exempt. I am sional men and women. The Labor fascinated that the amendment does Party seeks to leave the door open not refer to family businesses. What for the day when it comes into about the little milk bars run by full­ Government so that by providing for an time milk bar proprietors? What hap­ exemption level it can readily reimpose pens if the milk bar proprietor wishes full probate and gift duty in Victoria. to leave his business to the family? The A Labor Government would leave the same could be said about garage pro­ door open. However, a Labor Govern­ prietors, newsagents and hotel licensees. ment would not get its proposals on There is no difference between a small probate and gift duty through the Legis­ business and a family farm. lative Council in the foreseeable future. Mr Kennedy is showing the people However, if the legislation existed as a of Victoria that the Labor Party is try­ budgetary procedure, a Labor Govern­ ing to curry a few votes from dull­ ment could either increase the rates or witted farmers. However, as Mr Dunn lower the exemption level and thus re­ seemed to understand the situation, I introduce gift duty. As a matter of hope he will explain the amendment philosophy, the Government rejects the proposed by the Labor Party to all reasoned amendment. farmers. The Labor Party is not inter­ The House divided on the question ested in the proprietors of small that the words proposed by Mr Kennedy businesses such as milk bars and news­ to be omitted stand part of the motion agents, who may wish to pass their (the Hon. F. S. Grimwade in the chair) . businesses on to the family. The Hon. GLYN JENKINS (Minister Ayes .. 23 of Water Supply) -The Government re­ Noes .. 11 jects the reasoned amendment moved by Mr Kennedy, who obviously did not Majority against the know what he was talking about. He amendment .. 12 seems to be far more at home with the AYES free education movement and has a greater appreciation of the members of Mr Baxter Mr Lawson Mrs Baylor Mr Long that particular body. Mr Campbell Mr Radford Mr Chamberlain Mr Saltmarsh As Mr Stacey pointed out, the amend­ Mr Dunn Mr Stacey ment manif~sts once again the Socialist Mr Evans Mr Storey attitude of the Australian Labor Party Mr Granter Mr Taylor towards the accumulation of property. Mr Hauser Mr Ward Mr Houghton Mr Wright It is well known that one cannot take Dr Howard Tellers: money with one; one' either gives it Mr Hunt Mr Block away during one's lifetime or leaves it Mr Jenkins Mr Knowles 2 Deoetnber 1981] Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Bill 4025

NOES inadequate as a tool for management Mr Butler Mr Trayling purposes. The trust has recognized this Mrs Coxsedge Mr Walton deficiency and has, for many years, in­ Mr Eddy MrWhlte cluded in its annual report details of Mr Kennedy Tellers: Mr Kent Mr Mackenzie revenue and expenditure. Mr Landeryou Mr Sgro As in recent years the trust has had PAIRS difficulty in prepar·ing the required cash Mr Crozier Mr Thomas accounts due to its computer-based Dr Foley Mr Walker accounting system being geared to the more relevant accrual method of The motion was agreed to. accounting, the trust requested that the The Bill was read a second time, and Act be amended to bring its accounting passed through its remaining stages. and reporting provisions into line with modem day practices. I strongly support GEELONG WATERWORKS AND the trust's recommendation in this re­ SEWERAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL gard. The Hon. GLYN JENKINS (Minister The proposed amendment requires of Water Supply) -I move: the trust to prepare, within two months That this Bill be now read a second time. of the close of its financial year, a statement of account in a form appro­ The Bill contains a number of unrel'ated priate to its activities which should amendments to the Geelong Waterworks include such information as is neces­ and Sewerage Act 1958. The amend­ sary to give a true and fair view of ments have been requested by the its financial transactions, and its state Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage of affairs. The new provisions have Trust and are intended to improve the been prepared after consultation with administration of the trust's activities. the Auditor-General and are similar The most important amendment is to those recently incorporated in the contained in clause 4 of the Bill, which Victorian Film Corporation (Amend­ increases the statutory limits impo.sed ment) Act 1980, and 'the Health (Re­ on borrowing by the trust. The limit porting to Parliament) Act 1980. on borrowing for water supply works Clause 4 increases the penalty in­ is to 'be increased from $40 million to terest rate on unpaid rates and charges $60 million, and sewerage works from to 14 per cent per annum and pro­ $30 million to $40 miUion. The trust's vides for future variations in the rate loan liability for waterworks has al­ to be made by proclamation of the most reached the existing limit and the Governor in Council on the recom­ limit for sewerage works is expected mendation of the Treasurer. to be reached within a year. The in­ creased limits are required to allow the This amendment is similar to those trust to continue its extensive water to be made to the Water Act and supply and sewerage works programmes the Sewerage Districts Act by the within its district. Water and Sewerage Authorities (In­ Clause 2 of the Bill amends the re­ terest Payments) Bill recently intro­ quirements imposed on the trust in re­ duced in another place. The level of lation to annual accounting and report­ penalty interest has not been increased ing. The existing provision requires a since 1976 and, at the present level statement of account to be prepared, of ten per cent per annum, does not which must show the amount of all rates provide an incentive to ratepayers to and assessments made, all contracts ensure that rates and charges are paid entered into, all moneys received and when due. This amendment is in line paid, and the assets and liabilities of the with the existing provisions of the trust. In effect, this provision requires Local Government Act in relation to the trust to report its operations on a penalty interest on unpaid municipal cash basis only. Such a report is totally rates. I commend the Bill to the House. 4026 Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Bill [COUNCIL

The HoD. R. A. MACKENZIE will take over control of many of the (Geelong Province) -As the Minister smaller authorities and sewerage dis­ of Water Supply pointed out, the Bill tricts. Most of the sewerage districts contains a lot of unrelated amendments that will be taken over are not happy to the Geelong Waterworks and Sew­ about the proposals. Naturally they erage Act 1958. Members of my party have been running independently and have not opposition to the proposals they see this as a threat to their in­ outlined in the Bill. dependence. I believe this move is a I take the opportunity of pointing step forward. out that the Geelong Waterworks and One always has a few doubts about Sewerage Trust is a most efficiently forming very large statutory authorites. run body. Members of the Public Fears have been expressed that people Bodies Review Committee have in­ will not receive the same services if timated that on several occasions. The the organization gets too big, and in trust has a history of good manage­ some cases there are grounds for those ment and it is a pleasure to speak fears. I believe the trust will be able to about the trust in this Chamber. provide a better service than that pro­ vided now by the smaller authorities Despite the fact the trust is an ex­ because the new board will have better ceedingly well run organization, it is back-up facilities including computer not without its problems. Those pro­ services. blems are mainly financial. As in other debates on the Geelong Waterworks That brings me to another point and Sewerage Trust, I take the oppor­ relating to the Black Rock outfall tunity to point out to the Government sewer. Honourable members have heard something that was pointed out by mention of it in the past. Sewage from members of the trust, that there is a Geelong has been discharged in an un­ great need for assurances for the treated state into Bass Strait for more future from the Government re­ than 70 years and naturally the En­ garding the long-term planning of the vironment Protection Authority re­ trust. I know members opposite must quires that this should no longer get bored hearing me say it every time happen. The authority is concerned that a Bill is debated, but it is one of the the discharge is causing environmental biggest worries of an organization that problems. Although these problems are is endeavouring to see into the future not apparent to the passerby, obviously and decide how it will provide water this practice of dumping untreated and remove waste products if a large sewage into Bass Strait cannot con­ industry decides to locate in Geelong. tinue. It could be worse. The trust has The trust has worked out an exceed­ an extremely good waste programme ingly good ten-year plan, and keeps which ensures that the condition of local members of Parliament informed waste from industry, including small on the movements of the trust. The shops, is kept within the requirements trust holds regular meetings with mem­ of the Act. Had the trust not cleaned bers representing the Geelong area up the effluent before it got into the during which the trust is completely sewer more damage would have been open. The trust lays its cards on the done. table during these discussions. It is a The Government should accept some pity a lot of similar organizations are responsibility similar to the way it not the same. As I said, the trust has funded the Wurdi Boluc pipeline for worked out an impressive ten-year pro­ the ICI company. In that case, the gramme. That is essential. Government came to the party and When the recommendations of the provided a grant for a specific purpose. Public Bodies Review Committee are This project warrants a similar specific implemented, the responsibilities of the grant. Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage The Environment Protection Act Trust will increase greatly. It will be­ covers the discharge of effluent come the Geelong Water Board and but the trust does not even have to 2 Decem·ber 1981] Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Bill 4027

rely on that Act because the outfall Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage sewer and the environment that the Trust. Like Mr Mackenzie lam proud Environment Protection Authority seeks of the trust and I can recall at func­ to protect belongs to the people of tions and dinners over the years the Victoria. The ratepayers of Geelong present Minister for Police and Emerg­ and the Geelong Waterworks and Sew­ ency Services, Mr Granter, quite un­ erage Trust should not have the re­ ashamedly claiming that the trust was sponsibility of funding such a project one of the best water and sewerage which will cost of the order of $12 bodies in Victoria. million. The Government should give serious consideration to expediting the The area covered by the trust is groundwater studies on the GelIibrand large enough for the trust to operate River investigations. Time is ticking efficiently. In the recent copy of the away and if the trust does not find Geelong Advertiser 1 have noted ·that other areas of supply, the people of the trust has now upgraded its ten­ Victoria could be without water. year forward look major works pro,:, gramme, which amounts to $138 mil­ I know the Minister of Water Supply lion. That programme will be in my has the interests of the trust at heart as the trust is in the electorate he hands shortly. represents, but 1 take this opportunity It should also be indicated that the to put pressure on him. The Labor Geelong trust does not receive any in­ Party offers no opposition to the Bill. terest subsidy for its water or sewer­ The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North age operation other than some $100000 Eastern Province) -I support this a year to assist transmitting the water measure. I have been impressed by the from the West Moorabool dam. Alto­ activities of the Geelong Waterworks gether it is an efficient, well run. and and Sewerage Trust. 1 have been asso­ successful organization. cia ted with the trust through my membership on the Public Works Com­ I have noted Mr ·Mackenzie's com­ mittee, which is currently inquiring ments about outfall at Black Rock and into the augmentation of the that the Environment Protection Geelong water supply by imple­ Authority' had some concern about the menting one or two. proposals. licensing of the operation of that plant I have found the chairman, Mr White­ and equipment. Honourable members side, and his fellow commissioners and should have some regard for the the engineer, Mr Vines, to be most priorities of the State. It is not much co-operative and competent officers. good setting out priorities and insist­ The trust exudes a feeling of confidence ing that work be done if the funds are and of knowing what it is about. I not available. In my assessment of the am happy to support a Bill which is priorities for work to be done in the requested by a trust which realizes the provision of sewerage services in this need to bring its accounting require­ State, I believe other areas have a higher ments into line with modern-day prac­ priority. Townships in central Victoria, tice. That is the major aspect of the Bill. in particular, have higher risks of pol­ lution than the risks at the Black The motion was agreed to. Rock sewerage' outfall. It is one thing The Bill was read a second time. to set a standard and another for the Government or the authority to provide The Hon. GL YN JENKINS (Minister the funds. MrMackenzie would know of Water Supply)-By leave, I move: from his regular discussions with the That this Bill be now read a third time. chairman and senior officers that the Government is looking at the matter. I thank Mr Mackenzie and Mr Baxter for their comments about the chairman, The motion was agreed to, and the members and officers and staff of the Bill was read a third time. 4028 Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES trends have seriously eroded this bene­ (AMENDMENT) BILL fit to members of friendly societies and The Hon. HADOON STOREY the measure proposed in the Bill will (Attorney-General) -I move: provide for a more realistic sum being able to be provided. 1bat this Bill be now read a second time. It is a short Bill to amend the Friendly Clause 2B seeks to consequentially Societies Act 1958 and when enacted amend sections 16 (2) and 16 (4) of the will increase the amount of assurance principal Act to increase the maximum type benefit which may be provided to amount of benefit which may be members of friendly societies. aSSigned by the member or granted by the trustees of the society. Friendly societies have been operat­ At present, friendly societies are able ing in Victoria since the 1850s and to pay benefits, up to an amount of many of the major societies that are $6000 in the following instances: functioning today were established dur­ Firstly, upon the death of a. member of ing that period al?n~ si!llilar lines. to a society to a person previously nom­ their affiliated societIes In the United inated in writing by the member as Kingdom. At the time Government wel­ being the person to whom the benefit fare programmes were negligible all;d is to be paid upon the death of the friendly societies were able to fulfil t~IS member; secondly, upon the d.eath. of a social void by providing members with member of a society, who died mtes­ sickness, funeral and various other tate and without having made any benefits. nomination under the Act, the society Friendly societies are non-profit asso­ may pay the benefit to the perso-ij en­ ciations wholly owned and controlled titled by law to receive the benefit wi!h­ by their members. At present there are out the existence of letters of admm­ 126 societies registered under the istration. Friendly Societies Act with a member­ The Bill proposes an increase in the ship of apprOXimately 350 000, and total amount to be paid in the foregOing funds in excess of $100 million. circumstances from $6000 to $25000. The Friendly Societies Act has been Until 1976, the last occasion when amended in recent years increasing the these sums were adjusted, the amounts scope of societies and the present embodied in sections 5 (3), 16 (2) and legislation enables societies to offer a 16 (4) were all identically fixed at greater range of benefi!s, inclu~ing $6000, but due to an. oversight, the sickness, assurance, hospital, medical, amounts shown in sections 16 (2) and medicine and dental benefits, the estab­ 16 (4) were not increased. The Bill now lishment of homes for the aged, hospi­ seeks to rectify this apparent anomaly. tals and building societies. I commend the Bill to the House. The Bill contains two clauses: Clause On the motion of the Hon. R. J. 1 contains the usual provisions relating EDDY (Thomas town Province), the de­ to citation and commencement. Clause bate was adjourned. 2 is in two parts: Clause 2A seek~ t~ amend sections 5 and 5A of the princI­ It was ordered that the debate be pal Act. Friendly societies registered adjourned until the next day of meet­ under the Act are able to provide for ing. the payment of sums of money on the LIQUOR CONTROL death of, or on the attainment of a (AMENDMENT) BILL specified age by their members. .The maximum amount able to be proVided The Hon. HADDON STOREY by societies is presently fixed at (Attorney-General) -I move: $25 000 and it is proposed to increase That this Bill be now read a second time. this amount to $50000. The last in­ It introduces amendments to the Liquor crease took place in 1976 by amend­ Control Act 1968 concerning ships ment of the Act when the maximum provedores' licences and construction sum was increased from $6000 to the site canteen licences, removes an ano­ present level of $25 000. Inflationary maly in respect of wholesale liquor 2 December 1981 ] Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill 4029 merchant licences and corrects a typo­ Ships provedores supply ships with graphical error in the licence fee pro­ all their requirements from spare parts visions. through to food and beverages. A;s such it is reasonable to expect theIr The amendments contained in this premises to consist mostly of storage Bill are related to amendments to the area where these various commodities Act which were made by the 1980 may be stored until required, and be­ amending Act and will remove unin­ cause of the nature of some of the tentional consequences of that amend­ parts stored the premises could appear ing Act. The object of the first amend­ unkept. Because of this, unless an ment made by thi~ Bill is to ~nable amendment is made to the Act to a holder of a ships provedore's lIcence exempt ships proved ores from these to compete for trade on an equal foot­ provisions, it will become difficult and ing with ships provedores in other expensive for a ships provedore to States. raise the standard of his service to Honourable members will recall that that required of other licence holders, the Liquor Control Act was amended whereas in practice the requirements only last year to allow for ships pro­ are quite different. vedores' licences. That amendment was I have already been advised of one made to bring ships provedores under ships proved ore who has become the Act as there was some doubt about licensed and was required to spend over the legality of the practice of ships $5000 on his premises to bring them provedores, who were not licensed to a standard normally required of re­ under the Act, supplying liquor to ships tail licensed premises. This expendi­ as part of their normal trade. Since the ture should not have been necessary introduction of the ships proved ore's as it is unrealistic to expect them to licence late last year three licences keep their premises at the same stan­ have been issued by the Liquor Con trol dard as is required of licensed premises Commission. selling direct to the public. In the period that the s~ips p~o­ Through the unnecessary restrictions vedore's licence has been avaIlable, Its that the Act places upon ships prove­ operation has been closely monitored dores the Government has become as is the case with all the new licences awar~ that they are being placed in an and permits that were introduced last uncompetitive position compar~d ~o year. This monitoring, especially over their interstate counterparts. ThIS BIll the first twelve months, is to ensure corrects that situation by returning that Parliament's intention when in­ ships provedores to a position they troducing new licence and permit cate­ held prior to last year's amendment gories is realized. except that they will still be required to be licensed if they wish to sell liquor It has become clear that the Govern­ to ships and they will still be subject ment's intention with regard to ships to any terms, conditions, restrictions .or provedores' licences is not being ful­ limitations the Liquor Control CommIs­ filled and an amendment is therefore sion imposes. However they will not be needed to correct the existing situation. subject to the provisions of the Act When the provision for ships prove­ which are basically concerned with the dores' licences was introduced into the supply of liquor to the public. Act last year, it was not intended that The Bill also removes a restriction a ships provedore would be subject to imposed in the 1980 amendment Act the same provisions as licence holders that the sale of liquor at construction who sold liquor to the public. It was site canteens was only to be for con­ not intended that ships provedores sumption on the premises of the can­ should be subject to the same stan­ teen. The inability of these canteens to dards as retailers to the public in re­ sell liquor for consumption on other spect of, for example, the upkeep of than their premises is causing real their premises. problems. Session 1981-138 4030 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL

The Melbourne and Metropolitan In summary, this Bill seeks to cor­ Board of Works has advised that the rect situations unintentionally created liquor canteen at the Thomson project, by the 1980 amendments. It therefore which was established pursuant to the proposes to allow ships provedores, then provisions of the Liquor Control construction site canteens and whole­ Act 1968 and regulated by the Liquor sale liquor merchants to return in the Control (Thomson River Development manner 1 have mentioned to the posi­ Canteen) Regulations 1977, was estab­ tion they occupied prior to the 1980 lished in 1977 and was entitled to, and amendment. It also removes any doubt does sell packaged liquor for consump­ about the effect of these provisions and tion other than on the canteen premises. the licence fee provisions. I commend the Bill to the House. The amendments to the Act intro­ duced last year required canteen autho­ On the motion of the Hon. R. J. rities like the board to obtain licences EDDY (Thomastown Province), the de­ under, and be only subject to the pro­ bate was adjourned. visions of, the Act. That amendment permitted the board to continue under It was ordered that the debRte be the regulations until the licence is adjourned until the next day of meeting. renewed in December 1981, but it in­ advertently contained provisions that ADJOURNMENT limited the sale of liquor to that to be Grovedale pre-school centre--Interstate consumed on the canteen premises. rail fares-Estate Agents Act-Koo­ I agree with the board's belief that wee-nip Hlgb School-Motor Regis­ the facility to sell liquor for consump­ tration Brancb-Kew Cottages Special tion other than upon the premises of Scbool-Consumption of fruit--Com­ the canteen is vital to industrial har­ puter technology mony and general well being at the The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of Thomson project. This project is a Education) -I move: multimillion dollar project in a some­ That the Council, at its rising. adjourn until what remote area being constructed by tomorrow, at a quarter to one o'clock. a multidiscipline work force, which fre­ quently works at unusual hours, and Mr President, that is a strange time much of which resides in the township that 1 have never before moved, and I in barrack style living quarters and think it requires a little explanation and caravans. some reminders to the House. To­ morrow, the presence of all members The Bill will therefore permit the who are available will be appreciated board, and any other construction in front of the House at 10 a.m. so that authority specified under the Act, to we can travel together to present the have available to it the facility of Address-in-Reply to His Excellency the selling liquor for consumption other Governor. than on the premises of the licensed canteen. After allowing the normal time for that function, it usually would have Another amendment contained in been possible to commence the day's this Bill is aimed at removing an ano­ sitting at noon. However, in view of maly created by the 1980 amending certain events tomorrow evening, the Act which casts doubts on the ability catering staff would greatly appreciate of the Liquor Control Commission to it if we would all seek to take lun­ issue permits to wholesale liquor mer­ cheon between 12 noon and 1 p.m. chants which would allow them to rather than between 1 and 2 p.m. to­ conduct tastings for intending pur­ morrow. For that reason, it is inap­ chasers. The Bill will remove these propriate to commence sitting at noon, doubts and therefore ensure that the and thus the notice J am giving is for existing practice of liquor tastings con­ 12.45 p.m., with the bells ringing 15 ducted by wholesale liquor merchants minutes later at 1 p.m. It is intended may continue. that you, Mr President, should take the The Hon. Haddon Storey 2 December 1981] Adjournment 4031

chair at 1 o'clock. The sitting of the It is rather strange that because there day will be comparatively short because is a crossing of a State border the fare of the further ceremony in the evening. virtually doubles. I intend to raise this The motion was agreed to. matter with the Border Anomalies Committee for its attention, but I ask The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of the Minister to refer it to the Minister Education) -I move: of Transport to ascertain whether it is That the House do now adjourn. possible to work out a more equitable The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE system for the benefit of people, in this (Geelong Province) -I wish to raise a case school children, who live in a matter with the Minister representing border area. the Minister of Health, but in his ab­ sence 1 ask the Leader of the House to The New South Wales Railways im­ pass my comments on to him. At pose this surcharge because of the use Grovedale, in the electorate that 1 re­ of New South Wales stations. In fact, present, there is a great need for a it is a Victorian train travelling into pre-school centre. There has been a con­ Albury on a broad gauge line, not on a siderable amount of representation not New South Wales line, and for this only by parents but also by the local reason the New South Wales authority South Barwon City Council. They pre­ is being totally unreasonable. I ask the pared an excellent submission, which Minister to make the appropriate re­ was sent to the Minister of Health only presentation. a short time ago, in which they in­ The HOD. R. J. LONG (Gippsland dicated that they are prepared to fund Province)-I raise a matter for the themselves $30 000 of the cost of the attention of the Attorney-General con­ centre. cerning the Estate Agents Act. Section This is an extremely fast growing 36 (9) of that Act states: area which contains many young fami­ For the purposes of sub-section ( 1), every lies, and there is an urgent need in that estate agent who on 11 March 1980 was carry­ region for a pre-school centre. ing on business under a business name shall be deemed to have the approval o.f the Board I ask the Leader of the House to for the use of that name. remind the Minister of Health of the I stress that the provision refers to a urgency of the programme and ask him business name. Rule 16 of the rules to reply to the submission put forward purported to be made under that Act by the members of the council. states: The HOD. W. R. BAXTER (North An agent shall not without the written Eastern Province) -I raise with the approval of the Board- Minister of Water Supply a matter (a) in the case of a corporation, have a within the jurisdiction of the Minister name; and (b) in any case, carry on an estate agency of Transport, whom he represents in business under a name, It this House. concerns fares charged which includes the name of one of his sub­ by VicRail for a person to travel a very agents. short distance. The case I am parti­ The company Hallett Baker and Clark cularly referring to concerns the Chil­ Pty Ltd carries on business in tern Primary School, which desires as Warragul. Mr Hallett is a licensed an end of year excursion to travel to estate agent and Mr Baker and Mr Albury a group of 130 school children. Clark are sub-agents. The fare from Chiltern to Wodonga is 80 cents, but to travel the extra 7 kilo­ Because section 36'(9) refers to busi­ metres to Albury, the fare increases to ness names, it has no application in this $1.50 because a State border is crossed. case, but I should have thought that, The fare almost doubles, whereas if by implication, it would at least mean that extra distance were travelled with­ that the approval of the board must be in Victoria the fare would only rise to necessary to carry on a corporate name. 90 cents, a reasonable increase of 10 It seems to me to be completely un­ cents. reasonable to suggest that Parliament 4032 Adjournment [COUNCIL intended that section 36(9) should refer together with the registration papers only to business names and should not for her vehicle, on 4 November. The cover the names of companies. I think registration of her car was due to be it is a matter that escaped the attention renewed on 12 November. After making of the Parliament. I ask the Minister to a telephone can, she discovered that the persuade or cajole the Estate Agents cheque has still not been presented. Board at least to approve of the name of She was told that this was because of Hallett Baker and Clark Pty Ltd, because staff shortages in the Motor Registra­ the firm was incorporated before the tion Branch. She was also tOld that she present provisions of the Act were would be driving at her own risk. As even contemplated. It has been carrying she does not have third-party insurance, on business for some time. In my view, it is obvious that she could be liable it is completely unreasonable. that the for enormous damages. I ask the Min­ new provisions mean that the name Ister to investigate the matter. She is a must be changed before the board will law-abiding citizen who does not wiS;h issue a licence to the company. to break the law in this way. I am also informed that it will take The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Thomas town two or three months before the firm is Province)-I refer to the Minister of able to have a signwriter change the Education correspondence I have signs. That is another burden that the received from the school council of the company should not be expected to Kew Cottages Special School. I am carry. As it appears to be a matter informed that the situation at'the school that has escaped the attention of the is contrary to the public pronounce­ Parliament, I suggest to the Minister met:lts that have been made during this that he should advise the Estate Agents International Year of Disabled Persons. Board that the legislation will be A number of children are being denied amended in the next sessional period their legal right to education. Thirty­ and that it will be made retrospective five children judged by the State Edu­ to cover this sort of situation. cation Department to be eligible for education under the Education (Handi­ The Hon. D. E. KENT (Chelsea capped Persons) Act 1973 cannot be Province)-The' Minister of Education enrolled at the Kew Cottages Special will recall that in 1979 there was a School because the Education Depart­ serious fire at the Koo-wee-rup High ment refuses to provide the elevefl School, which destroyed two large teachers and eleven teacher aides teaching areas, a central office and required to instruct them. storage space. Following the fire, a five-module relocatable building was Because of that, the 35 children are provided, and that building has been locked up in their units, better known incorporated into the other buildings at as wards, at the institution and they the school and it has become an receive only about 1 hour a day of essential part of the school buildings. development instruction in the Minus Because of a slight reduction in the Children Buildings. I ask the Minister student intake, the school has been to take up this matter with his col­ advised that the relocatable is to be league, the Minister of Educational removed and replaced with a smaller Services, in an effort to assist children relocatable. I ask the Minister to do who need assistance. If it would be everything in his power to ensure that helpful, I should be only too happy to the Koo-wee-rup High School retains provide the correspondence, so that the the existing re locatable building. honourable gentleman can follow it up. The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley The HoD. D. M. EVANS (North Province)-I direct to the attention of Eastern Province)-The matter I raise the Minister for Police and Emergency is primarily for the attention of the Services a problem faced by a Glen Minister for Conservation, representing Waverley resident who posted a cheque the Minister of Health, but it is also to to the Motor Registration Branch, some extent directed to the Minister -2 December 1981] Adjo~rnment 4033 ·of Agriculture. It concerns an article computer science and data processing that appeared in the National Farmer technology. It has been brought to my newspaper of Thursday, November 19. attention that persons or companies The article refers to research carried engaged in the development of s

the State in a full year if a 35-hour Legislative Assembly working week were to be granted to public servants? Wednesday, 2 December 1981 Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ surer)-That certainly will be done. It The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ is not possible to work out a rough man) took the chair at 12.6 p.m. and percentage because, although the pay­ read the prayer. roll affected and going through the Budget is slightly more than $2000 million, various persons such as teach­ QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE ers would not be affected by the change. Therefore, a detailed analysiS is required and that certainly will be CONTROL OF PRINT MEDIA done; indeed it has been commenced. Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition)­ In view of the Norris committee rec­ BATMAN PAPERS ommendation to the Government sup­ Mr REYNOLDS (Gisborne)-I refer porting the establishment of an auth­ the Minister for the Arts to the recent ority to monitor any change in the acquisition by the Victorian Govern­ respective ownership and control of ment of documents known as the Bat­ the media, will the Premier and Trea­ man papers. Will the Minister advise surer advise what steps the Govern­ the House of the authenticity of the ment has taken to implement those papers, their value, both monetarily recommendations particularly in the and historically, and where 'and when light of the suggested proposals last they will be made available for viewing night of the takeover of the Herald by the public? and Weekly Times Ltd by the Bell Group in Western Australia? Mr LACY (Minister for the Arts)­ Before the Government decided to pur­ Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ chase the Port Phillip Associa tion surer)-Following the publication of papers it had Dr Philip Brown, the the report, I made it clear that before expert on the Batman documents, and any action would be taken by the Professor A. G. L. Shaw study the Government, the Government would documents to advise on their authen­ invite expressions of opinion from ticity. The advice given by both gentle­ interested parties. Since that date, I men indicated that the documents w~re have had mainly strong expressions genuine and ought to be purchased by of opinion opposing the implementa­ the Government to be held in the State tion of the report. This morning, I Library. However, the option in the spoke to Sir Keith Macpherson, the purchase allows for a 21-day period Chairman of the Herald and Weekly during which authenticity can be estab­ Times Ltd who expresses the view lished. The Government can take a that that organization is strongly op­ further measure and tests can be under­ posed to the implementation of the taken to indicate the age of the paper Norris report and, in the light of any involved in the documents, which is a rumours or reports taking place over further test. The Government has no the past 24 hours, would be opposed doubt about the authenticity of the to any form of Government action documents-it is simply a secondary or interference. precaution. The value of the documents would 3S-HOUR WORKING WEEK have to be the purchase price, which Mr ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the was $20 000, although it is believed National Party)-I refer the Premier that their monetary value is substan­ and Treasurer to moves that have been tially more than that. The value to made to bring about a 35-hour week Victoria historically is that they allow for public servants. Will he take steps us to completely re-evaluate the settle­ to have calculated the financial cost to ment of Melbourne and Victoria, the 2 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4037 character of the people involved in Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agricul­ that settlement and the transactions ture) -First of all, I am aware that that took place between members of there is some concern about the possi­ the association, such as Gellibrand, bility or the desire of the Victorian Swanston and Batman as well as the Dairy Industry Authority to have agent for the Port Phillip Association vesting powers and also to make direct in Edinburgh, George Mercer. payments to dairy farmers. In relation The papers will be available to be to vesting powers, that is a reserve seen by the public during a special power which can be used at a time of exhibition which will be staged in emergency-certainly the threat of its February. I have also arranged with use can be used in such away. At this the Librarian of the Parliamentary stage, there is no intention to change Library for honourable members and that situation. members of staff of the Parliament to In relation to direct payments to view the documents during the dairy farmers, the Victorian Dairy In­ remainder of this week, under super­ dustry Authority has been keen to vision. change the system to allow it to make payments to dairy farmers. The author­ INSTANT TATTS ity has received an opinion from the Mr CRABB (Knox)-Does the Premier Auditor-General-a legal opinion-that recall the Minister for Youth, Sport there is some merit in the direct pay­ and Recreation's publicly expressed ments, because if a company were to opposition to the introduction of instant go broke, there could be a default of money Tatts, otherwise known as mini payments. I believe there are other poker machines, in 1979 when it was ways this problem can be overcome first proposed? In view of that, can the and I will certainly look at an alterna­ Premier inform the House whether tive rather than direct payments to Cabinet has approved the introduction dairy farmers. of this gambling game and, if not, why not? It it has, can the honourable OPERATION SALAMANDER gentleman inform the House how he Mr CRELLIN (Sandringham)-I dir­ reconciles this decision with the Gov­ ect a question to the Minister of Trans­ ernment's opposition to poker port, representing the Minister for machines? Police and Emergency Services. I Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ remind the Minister of the great value surer) -It is not necessary for the of Port Phillip Bay and other beach Tattersall organization to receive the areas as recreational facilities for Vic­ approval of the Government under the torians and visitors to the State. Keep­ existing terms of the Act. Secondly, ing in mind the unfortunate instances no machines will be used in selling of loutish and other forms of bad these tickets. behaviour that take place from time to time in these areas, can the Minister VICTORIAN DAIRY advise the House whether the Victoria INDUSTRY AUTHORITY Police will again be mounting this year the very successful Operation Sala­ Mr HANN (Rodney)-Is the Minister mander which it has conducted over of Agriculture aware of widespread recent years in beach side areas? concern within the dairying industry and reports that the Victorian Dairy Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ Industry Authority wishes to take over port) -My colleague, the Minister for direct payments to dairy farmers and Police and Emergency Services, advises is also seeking vesting powers for milk me that it is the intention of the Vic­ supply in Victoria? If the Minister is toria Police to continue with Operation aware of this concern, will he take Salamander in this summer season. The action to ensure that the authority is purpose of that is to have a particular not given these powers until the indus­ effort in respect of behaviour on the try is fully consulted? roads, beaches and holiday areas where 4038 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY other people's holidays might be inter­ regard it as "B" class bunkum and "R" rupted by problem behaviour and to rated 'rubbish. The State of Victoria has assist in particular the local police who been subsidizing the development of might have a problem because of the the State of Queensland in areas of increased numbers attending their State Government activity for many areas. All sections of the police will years. If the State of Victoria had been be called on to provide extra personnel reimbursed on the same ba'sis as Queens­ to attend to the problems which might land last year, it would have received emerge and to help in resort areas. The another $519 million. Over the past five Mornington Peninsula, Port Phillip Bay years Victoria has subsidized develop­ areas and Geelong will receive par­ ment in Queensland in areas of State ticular attention and it is intended to Government activity to the tune of start the operation late this month and $528 million. to continue it well into the new year. Many of the concessions and benefits that Queenslanders enjoy are the direct INSTANT TATIS result of a subsidy that Victorians pay Mr TREZISE (Geelong North)-Can in income tax. The other statement­ the Premier inform the House whether this is worth listening to and the Op­ investigations have been made into the position should not get excited..;...is that social effects of the introduction of Victoria is slipping behind because of instant money Tatts or the three of a the large measure of industrial unrest. kind money poker game? If investiga­ Victoria certainly has too much in­ tions have been made, what are the dustrial unrest, which has been fos­ results of those investigations and if tered by unions behind the leadership they were not carried out, why not? of the Parliamentary Labor Party. What actions are being taken to pre­ It is interesting to note that the vent young children well under the number of working days per thousand ag~ of eighteen years f.rom being in­ employees lost in Queensland in the duced to gamble' away their school month of August was 50 per cent lunch money or their mother's change higher than in Victoria. The number when they go shopping? of working days lost in July. was 10 Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ per cent higher in Queensland than surer) -Firstly, I understand that this Victoria and for the month of June system has been working in South Aus­ it was 22 per cent higher. Therefore, tralia for quite some time without any that aspect of the submission is also undesirable effects. Secondly, I under­ rubbish. The Opposition should make stand that it.is not the intention of the no mistake about that. The vigorous promotors of Tattersall's to sell tickets State of Victoria is largely responsible to minors and, thirdly, as I indicated for the prosperity of Queensland. earlier, no machines will be used. The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ man)-Order! I will proceed with ques­ CRITICISM OF VICTORIA BY tion time when Opposition members are QUEENSLAND MINISTER ready to follow the decorum of this Mr McINNES (Gippsland South)­ place that is generally expected of Is the Premier and Treasurer aWa're of them. criticism of Victoria reported in today's press, by ,the Queensland Minister for ALLEGATIONS OF DISCRIMINATION Employment and Labour Relations, Sir Dr COGHILL (Werribee)-I ask the William Knox and, if so, can the Prem­ Premier: What investigations have been ier advis'e whether any examination has made of recent allegations if discrimi­ been made to a,scertain whether the nation based on race and ethnic origin facts are correct? in Victoria, including the statement by Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ the Commissioner for Community Re­ surer) -I read that statement to which lations that Victoria's Aborigines may the honourable member refers and be more oppressed than Aborigines in 2 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4039 other States and will the Government centres, which have all involved mone­ now agree to amend the Equal Oppor­ tary commitments, and a few others tunity Act to outlaw racial discrimina­ that involve commitments, the project tion? If so, why not? will be completed. I imagine it will take a few years to complete that pro­ Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ gramme. The Ministry will give further surer) -No cases of discrimination consideration to the project which the have been brought to my attention, honourable member has brought to my The most recent fact brought to my attention. attention was the effort made by the Victorian Government, in conjunction VICTORIAN ECONOMIC POLICIES with the special appeal comn1ittee, to Mr McARTHUR (Ringwood)-I dir­ ensure that Aborigines living in Mel­ ect a question to the Treasurer. In bourne enjoy high standards of accom­ view of the concern which the Trea­ modation for relaxation purposes and surer recently expressed in the House for library accommodation. The Leader over the continuing raids on New South of the Opposition and the former Wales statutory authorities by the New Leader of the Opposition, the honour­ South Wales Government and also'the able member for Northcote, will recall financial criticism which was made in that on Friday we turned the first sod that State of those actions and the at the Victorian Aborigines Advance­ fact that the Australian Labor Party ment League's new headquarters at in Victoria has virtually the same eco­ Northcote that will cost nearly $1 million. It is a successful innovation nomic p'oliciesas the New South Wales and proves beyond doubt that the Vic­ Government, could the Treasurer advise torian Government is not in favour of the House-- any form of discrimination and is tak­ Honourable members interjecting. ing positive steps to provide better The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ living and recreation standards for man)-Order! I ask the honourable Aborigines in Melbourne and Victoria. member for Dandenong to cease inter­ jecting. I had to speak to him a nu'mber NHILL AND DISTRICT THEATRE of times yesterday, threatening to name COMMITTEE him. He does not seem to be learning. Mr McGRA TU (Lowan)-The Minis­ I ask the honourable member for ter for the Arts will recall receiving Ringwood to repeat the latter part of a submission from the Nhill and Dis­ the question. trict Theatre Committee at Horsham Mr McARTHUR-Could the Treasur­ in February of this year. Will he indi­ er please advise the House, if he has cate what consideration has been given been able to make a comparative study by his Ministry to that submission? of the most recent actions by the Will a grant for the project of improve­ New South Wales Government on the ments to the theatre be considered Maritime Services Board of New South and, if so, when is that grant likely to Wales and the New South Wales be forthcoming? premier bank, and could he indicate whether he will be taking similar action Mr LACY (Minister for the Arts)­ in Victoria? That submission, which was received Mr FORDHAM (Footscray)-On a with the assistance of the honourable point of order, Mr Speaker, I suggest member, is being considered by the that the way in which the question Ministry. It has been considered since was asked is clearly out of order. The February and probably will be con­ whole tenor and thrust of the question sidered for some time to come. As I concerned the administration of govern­ indicated to another honourable mem­ ment in New South Wales. It was not ber a couple of weeks ago, after the dealing with the performance of the Ministry has completed the building of Victorian Government, and in those the Warrnambool, Wonthaggi, Warra­ circumstances the question should not gul and Wangara tta performing arts be proceeded with. If Government 4040 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY supporters wish to' have an extensive that greater use should be made of debate Dn this m'atter, the Opposition balances in trust funds. My consistent will be Dnly too happy to accommo­ view is that we will make use of them date them, but if they do not know where it is safe to' do so. What has how to' draft questions in question happened in the case referred to­ time, obviously the matter should not and sDmething which we do not intend proceed. to emulate in Victoria-is that the Mr RICHARD SON (Forest Hill)-On Maritime Services BDard has been vir­ the point of order, I submit that the tually raided by the New SDuth Wales question is in order. The question asks Treasury and has had to increase its whether a comparative study has been charges by up to 47 per cent. Victoria made between Government administra­ has no intention of emulating that tion in New South Wales and Govern­ action in the case of the Port of ment administration Dn the same sub­ MelbDurne Authority. ject in Victoria. You ruled last week, An extraordinary decision was made Mr Speaker, that it was perfectly ap­ by the Government of New South propriate for the Government of this Wales in the case of the State Bank State to' study government activities of New South Wales. in anDther State to make comparisons sO' that Government administration in Mr WILTON (Broadmeadows)-On a Victoria could benefit from the results point of order, I submit to you, Mr of such comparison. What the ques­ Speaker, that the Treasurer is indulging tiDn asks is whether such a compara­ in a blatant political speech. I am tive study has been made and what .appealing to you, Sir, that some dignity will be the results of that study in and respectability be brought back into relation to Government administration questiDn time concerning the Minister'S in Victoria. area of responsibility. With the greatest .The SPEAKER-Order! QuestiDns respect, I suggest that if Ministers are asked Df Ministers must relate to their to be allowed to indulge in political responsibilities. Ministers must be able speeches when answering questions, to' take some administrative action in which have been deliberately framed relation to' the question that is asked. to allDw the Minister to make disparag­ In this case the nub of the question ing remarks and atack another Govern­ was what action the Premier and Trea­ ment, a re-examination of page 330 of surer would take in relatiDn to' a com­ May should take place with a view to parative study of Government adminis­ determining what the Minister is en­ tration here in Victoria. I therefore titled to indulge in when answering rule that that part of the question­ questions. that is, the nub of the question-is The Treasurer has no right to cast in order. aspersions on a decision made by Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ another Government because he has nO' surer)-The Victorian Government is responsibility in that area. I submit to naturally interested in what happens you, Mr Speaker, that it is a blatant in the variDus States frDm time to time, misuse Df question time and if allowed firstly, frDm the point of view Df intrD­ to' continue, I respectfully suggest the dUcing uniform tax laws, and, 'secondly, Parliament will be brought into dis­ from the point of view Df copying repute. gODd ideas. There was SDme suggestion that the questiDn may have been out The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ of Drder. The finances of the State Df man)-Order! As I pointed out in New South Wales are very much DUt response to a point Df order recently Df order, but I do nDt want to dwell by the hDnourable member for Broad­ on that point. meadows, a Minister has a legitimate However, various suggestiDns have responsibility to consider developments emanated from hDnourable members taking place within his own State, the on the Opposition side of the HDuse nation and the globe. The Minister 2 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4041 should examine other Administrations, member, the honourable member for choose the best and try to avoid the Midlands. I am pleased to say that I worst aspects of any other Administra­ have good news for him today. There tion. 'is to be a first instalment of a grant of $46 000 to assist a work programme for However, I uphold the point of order the area which will employ a number to the extent that replies from the Min­ of those people seeking employment at ister cannot simply dwell on the this stage. Other avenues of employ­ deficiencies of others. The replies must ment are also being "investigated, and point out where the Minister intends to the grant of $46 000 will go ahead. avoid similar problems which may have occurred in other administrations. The thrust of a reply must relate to a Min­ HOSPITAL DISPUTE ister's administration and not simply be Mr RICHARDSON (Forest Hill)­ critical of other Governments in Aus­ Will the Minister of Health inform the tralia. House on the present situation regard­ Mr THOMPSON-Approximately 50 ing the strike by hospital workers in per cent of the profits of the State Victoria and on what action the Gov­ Bank of Victoria are paid to consoli­ ernment is continuing to take to try to resolve this most unfortunate situa- dated revenue. The New South Wales tion? . Government has made the extraordinary move towards seizing 73 per cent of Mr BORTHWICK (Minister of the profits of the State bank of New Health)-A meeting that occurred South Wales and demanding that pay­ yesterday, which was chaired by the ment be made in advance. The Vic­ Office of Industrial Relations Co-ordin­ torian Government would not wish to ation, that involved the Hospital Em­ endanger the finances of the State Bank ployees Federation No. 1 Victorian of Victoria by acting in that way. This Branch, the Victorian Hospitals Indus­ financial year the Government has no trial Council and personnel from the intention of lifting the contribution from Health Commission, agreed, after ap­ the State Bank of Victoria beyond the proximately four-and-a-half hours of 50 per cent mark. The Government also does not intend to take the extra­ discussions, that certain recommenda­ ordinary move of demanding payment tions would be made to the first of a in advance of any profits that the bank series of mass meetings that were to 'may be estimated or likely to make. take place this morning at the South­ ern Memorial Hospital at Caulfield. FIRE AT CASTLEMAINE The recommendation that was to be Mr JOLLY (Dandenong)-My ques­ made by the Hospital Employees Feder­ tion is directed to the Premier. In view ation No. 1 Victorian Branch was basic­ of the fact that two weeks have elapsed ally that people would return to work since the disastrous fire at the CastIe­ on the recommendations and that the maine woollen mill and the urgent need Hospital Employees Federation would to provide emergency employment join with the Victorian Hospitals In­ relief in that area, why has the Govern­ dustrial Council and the Office of In­ ment failed to indicate to the local dustrial Relations Co-ordination in council that funds will be made avail­ rapidly completing a market survey by 'able for job creation programmes? Will late Thursday which will be jointly pre­ the Government abandon its miserly sented to the Industrial Commission as policy of forcing councils to match soon as possible. I have received this dollar for dollar any grant the Govern­ ment is prepared to make towards job advice only since the House met today, creation programmes? but I understand that the employees accepted the recommendation at the Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ mass meeting. I would expect that that surer)-That area is extremely for­ acceptance will flow to other mass tunate in having an enthusiastic, active meetings. 4042 Petitions [ASSEMBLY

PETITIONS PAPERS Daylight saving The following papers, pursuant to the directions of several Acts of Parliament, Mr McGRA TH (Lowan) presented a were laid on the table by the Clerk: petition from certain citizens praying Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways Board that a referendum on daylight saving -Report for the year 1980-81. be held in conjunction with the next Police Regulation Act 1958-Determination No. State election. He stated that the peti­ 348 of the Police Service Board. tion was respectfully worded, in order, and bore 6463 signatures. POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION It was ordered that the petition be (AMENDMENT) BILL laid on the table. This Bill was received from the Coun­ cil and, on the motion of Mr LACY Visiting teacher services (Minister of Educational Services), was read a first time. Mr COLEMAN (Syndal) presented a petition from certain citizens praying that the House seek urgent confirma­ APPROPRIATION MESSAGE tion from the Minister of Educational The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ Services that the vi sting teacher ser­ man) announced the presentation of a vices will not be splintered and that message from His Excellency the Gover­ it will continue to provide co-ordinated nor recommending that an appropriation service to the handicapped school be made from the Consolidated Fund for children in our State. He stated that the purposes of the Consumer Affairs the petition was respectfully worded, (Amendment) Bill. in order, and bore 557 signatures. MOTOR CAR (FURTHER It was ordered that the petition be AMENDMENT) BILL laid on the table. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ ELECTRICITY RESOURCES IN port) -I move: SOUTH-EASTERN AUSTRALIA That this Bill be now read a second time. Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ Earlier this session, a Bill was intro­ surer) -By leave, I move: duced to correct a number of anomalies in the Motor Car Act with a view to That there be presented to this House a copy strengthening the Government's cam­ of the report of the joint Commonwealth-State paign against the road toll. The Bill Committee of Inquiry into electricity generation and the sharing of power resources in south­ resulted from a continuous evaluation eastern Australia. by the Government of a range of pro­ posed road safety initiatives. The motion was agreed to. In the 1970s, this process of evalua­ Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ tion and the resultant legislative amend­ surer) -I present the report in com­ ments contributed substantially to the pliance with the foregoing order. I in­ decline in the road toll. Those amend­ tend to make a Ministerial statement, ments included the introduction of com­ if it suits the House, later this day. pulsory seat belt wearing in 1970, com­ pulsory blood testing after accidents in Mr FORDHAM (Footscray)-Are 1974 and in 1976 the introduction of copies of the report available? compulsory child seat restraints for The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ children sitting in the front seat. The man)-Copies are available in the process continued later in 1976 with the Papers Room. introduction of breath-testing stations and earlier this year there was a It was ordered that the report be general increase in penalties for driving laid on the table. offences. 2 Dec'ember 1981] Motor Car (Further Amendment) Bill 4043

It is this process, together with the that the regulations will require the Government's concern at the increase testing and sealing of the devices by in the number of road fatalities this the Royal Melbourne Institute of Tech­ year, that has led to the introduction nology at intervals of twelve months of this further Bill to amend the Motor and that the devices must be tested for Car Act. accuracy on each day of use with a The reason for the increase in fatali­ tuning fork which has been tested with­ ties this year is not readily apparent. in the preceding twelve months by the The Parliamentary Road Safety Com­ Department of Applied Physics of the mittee is currently examining this as­ Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial pect, but perhaps it can be said that Research Organisation. The regulations complacency by motorists is a contri­ wil1 also provide that the devices may buting factor. It is the Government's only be used by members of the Police view that not only will the initiatives Force who have been certified by the proposed in this Bill have a direct ef­ Chief Commissioner as having success­ fect in the specific areas at which they fully completed a training course in the are aimed, but also they will remind use of radar. the motoring public of the Govern­ The provisions in the Bill resulted ment's, and indeed the Parliament's, from an extensive evaluation of two de­ concern at the number of deaths and vices by the police. These are the injuries caused by road accidents. "Kustom HR-4" whiCh is a hand-held The Bill contains two major provi­ device and the "Muni Quip MDR-l" sions: To require all children under the which is a vehicle-mounted device. Both age of eight years travelling in the rear devices operate on the same principle. seats of motor cars to wear a child seat When activated, the radar device pro­ restraint or a safety belt where such jects a very high frequency radio signal restraint or belt is fitted and available which is reflected back from the target for use; and to provide for the use of vehicle and picked up by a radio re­ radar by the police in the detection of ceiver in the device. A moving target speeding offences. vehicle changes the frequency of the The introduction of radar devices will signal and it is this change which is not only assist police to detect speed­ measured by the radar device and ing motorists but will also provide a visually displayed as the speed of the strong deterrent to speeding in general. vehicle. The requirement for children to be re­ With the hand-held device, which strained whenever possible will contri­ resembles a large pistol, the operator bute to a reduction in the number of stands beside the road and aims the deaths and injuries in road accidents. device at the approaching vehicle. The Radar has been used by police in device is activated by depressing a New South Wales for more than seven trigger and the speed of the target years and has subsequently been in­ vehicle is displayed on a digital read­ troduced in all other Australian States. out on the rear of the device. By main­ From time to time there have been taining pressure on the trigger, the isolated instances of adverse pUblicity device displays the actual speed of the to the use of radar by police in other target vehicle every second. When the States but honourable members may be trigger is released the speed of the assured that the provisions of this Bill vehicle is locked on the display. The are designed to provide a series of device can also be connected to a large checks and balances in the use of radar digital display board which can be used by the Victoria Police. to indicate a vehicle's speed to an ap­ proaching driver. Specifically, the Bill provides for radar speed readings to be prima facie The vehicle-mounted device consists evidence of the speed of a motor of a directional antenna and a console vehicle if the prescribed conditions of which displays the speed of the police use are complied with. It is intended vehicle and the speed of the target 4044 Motor Car (Further Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY

vehicle. The device can be used to To test the accuracy of the devices record the speed of an approaching on each day of use, a tuning fork with vehicle or a receding vehicle; to do so a frequency equated to a particular it either adds or subtracts the recorded speed is struck and held in front of the speed of the police vehicle and displays device. If accurate, the device displays the actual speed of the target vehicle. the same speed as is marked on the It can also be used when the police tuning fork. If not accurate, the device vehicle is stationary. would be taken out of service to be repaired. Both devices give an accurate read­ ing of the speed of a target vehicle The use of radar in speed detection when operated in a straight line with has a number of advantages over the the target vehicle. As the location of use of amphometers and digitectors. the device moves from an angle of Firstly, there is a minimal if any 180 degrees, the recorded speed of the "set up" time whereas the amphometer the device moves from an angle of and digitector require the laying of 90 degrees, no speed is registered. Any tapes across the road, which involves deviation from the angle of 180 de­ some element of danger to the operator, grees thus operates in favour of the and the laying' of lengthy connecting motorist as the device registers a speed wires to the recording device. Operat­ lower than the actual speed of the ing sites can thus be changed at target vehicle. frequent intervals, thus minimizing the . Both devices emit an audible signal "early-warning" tactics of CB radio for each target vehicle which increases operators or other motorists who may in intensity relative to the speed of that alert approaching motorists by the vehicle. Where two vehicles are in flashing of headlights. close proximity and there is a likeli­ Secondly, the vehicle-mounted hood of confusion as to which vehicle devices enable the detection and appre­ is registering a particular speed, the hension of speeding motorists travelling signal is "scrambled" and the devices in either direction. do not display a speed reading. The combination of the operator's observa­ Finally, and most importantly, the tion of a target vehicle and the in­ knowledge that radar devices may be tensity of the audible signal aids in in use by the police at unknown loca­ identifying a particular speeding vehicle. tions will have a general mitigating effect on speeding, even when the In these circumstances, proper train­ devices are not actually in use. In this ing in the use of the radar devices is respect, radar detection devices are of essential. As a further safeguard against little value as the radar devices emit a mistaken identity, the devices will not signal only when activated in relation be used in heavy traffic situations, but to a particular target vehicle. only where a target vehicle is clearly I would emphasize that the Govern­ identifiable. In this respect, the intended ment is satisfied that the checks and use of the radar devices will be no balances provided for in this Bill will different from the use of amphometers ensure that the radar devices will pro­ and digitectors throughout the State. vide an effective operational aid to the police in their continuing campaign The devices may be subject to inter­ against the road toll, as well as having ference from such sources as high a strong deterrent effect on the speed­ tension powerlines, State Electricity ing motorist. Commission transformers and Telecom The provisions in the Bill concerning towers. However, such interference child restraint have arisen from an only affects the effective range of the evaluation of calls for the compulsory devices and does not result in erroneous restraint of children in motor cars from speed readings for target vehicles. In a number of sources, including the Road practice, the police would not use the Safety Committee, the Road Trauma devices near these structures. Committee of the Royal Australasian Mr Maclellan 2 December 1981] Motor Car (Further Amendment) Bill 4045 College of Surgeons, the Royal Auto­ The Bill also contains a provIsion mobile Club of Victoria, the Road that no offence is committed if the Safety and Traffic Authority and the driver can show that non-compUance Victoria Police. with the provision occurred in circum­ These provIsIons represent the stances which made it unreasonable or second stage of legislation in this area. impracticable to comply with the require­ In 1976, the Parliament legislated for ment. Such circumstances may involve the compulsory restraint of all children the carriage of a baby where no suit­ under the age of eight years travelling able child restraint is fitted but for in the front seats of motor cars. The whom the use of an adult seat belt impact of this legislation was a 54 per would be impracticable. The require­ cent decrease in injuries to children ment for a driver to concentrate on under the age of eight years in the heavy traffic conditions may also render front seats of motor cars between 1975 it unreasonable for him to ensure that and 1980. However, over this same children in the rear seat remain con­ period there was a 33 per cent increase stantly restrained. in the number of injuries to children The Government sees this provision travelling in the back seats of motor as representing a further step towards cars. the reduction of the number of deaths These figures indicate that there is a and injuries occurring on our roads and need for further action. However, it in particular in the number of deaths should be noted that a number of occurring amongst those who need our problems are envisaged with legislation greatest protection. I commend the Bill requiring the compulsory restraint of to the House. every child carried in the rear seats of motor cars. On the motion of Mr EDMUNDS (Ascot Vale), the debate was adjourned. For example, there is the situation of large families and the carriage of It was ordered that the debate be several children, say, on a roster basis adjourned until Tuesday, December 8. to kindergartens or other places. In both these situations, problems would EDUCATION (COUNCILS) BILL arise simply because it would be im­ Mr LACY (Minister of Educational possible by reason of available space Services)-I move: to comply with a requirement for the That this Bill be now read a second time. compulsory restraint of all the children. It will assist in the course of advanced Having regard to these problems, the college reconstruction in this State, Bill provides the best viable alternative and provide a means of ensuring that to the compulsory restraint of all the liabilities and obligations of col­ children. It prohibits the driving of a leges involved in amalgamation are motor car in which a child under the accepted and honoured by the councils age of eight years is a passenger and of the new institutions. unrestrained in the rear seat where a child seat restraint or safety belt is The governing councils of a number fitted and available for use by that of colleges of advanced education in child. Child seat restraints include Victoria have applied to the Victorian special harnesses suitable for a child's Post-Secondary Education Commission height and body mass, with or without to be amalgamated with other colleges a special seat, and bassi net nets which under section 25 of the Post-Secondary restrain the basket and prevent a baby Education Act 1978. from being ejected. The onus of ensur­ Section 25 (1) of that Act states that ing compliance is placed on the driver. "Any two or more councils incor­ In passing, I would mention that all porated under this Act may apply in motor cars manufactured since 1977 writing to the commission to be amal­ and second-hand cars available for sale gamated". The key words in that section must be fitted with seat belts for each are "incorporated under this Act", seating position. because in all but one instance the 4046 Education (Councils) Bill [ASSEMBLY councils applying to be amalgamated rights, obligations and liabilities will be are in fact incorporated under section transferred to the council as re­ 29A of the Education Act 1958 rather incorporated under s.ection 23 of the than the Post-Secondary Education Act. Post-Secondary Education Act 1978, Therefore, before they can be amal­ and subsequently to the amalgamated gamated with other colleges they must council incorporated under section 25 be re-incorporated under section 23 of of that Act. the Post-Secondary Education Act 1978. My colleague, the Minister of Educa­ The councils have made the required tion, has given repeated assurances that application to the commission to be no amalgamation w·as to be a vehicle incorporated under section 23 of the for shedding the legal responsibilities Post-Secondary Education Act 1978. or moral obligations of the councils This will be done, but under section involved in the merger. The Bill will 29A of the Education Act 1958, there provide a statutory means of so ensur­ would remain a legally incorporated ing, and I commend it to the House. council even though its powers and On the motion of Mr FORDHAM functions may have been removed, (Footscray), the debate was adjourned. leaving an empty "shell". It has also been argued that any existing liabilities It was ordered that the debate be and obligations would attach to that adjourned until Tuesday, December 8. shell rather than the new council, or The sitting was suspended at 1 p.m. the amalgamated institution. It obvi­ until 2.4 p.m. ously would be nonsense to perpetuate this situation but in the absence of an CO-OPERATION BILL express provision the Governor in The debate (adjourned from October Council is unable to dissolve the council 6) on the motion of Mr Kennett (Min­ of an institution whose council has ister of Housing) for the second been re-incorporated under section 23 reading of this Bill was resumed. of the Post-Secondary Education Act Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-This is a 1978 although all parties concerned very large and certainly an important wish that action to be taken. Bill and it was pleasing, from the Therefore, sub-section 29A (5) of the point of view of the Opposition, to hear Education Act 1958 is to be amended the Minister of Housing speak about by the insertion of the words "dissolve Socialism in such glowing terms. As the Council" which extends the power he pointed out, the whole co-operative of the Governor in Council by order movement began in the town of Roch­ to amend a previous order constituting dale when a small group of weavers the council to enable dissolution of the established a co-operative store. In council. The proposed power of dissolu­ founding the co-operative movement, tion will be exercisable only with the the weavers saw that interprise as one consent of the council of the institution way in which they could cope with the concerned, unless that council has exploitation of the nineteenth century. become unable to maintain a quorum. In the actions of this small group An additional sub-section is to be of people, there was the whole growth added to section 29A of the Education and development of democratic Social­ Act 1958 so that when a council is to ism in the English tradition. be dissolved the order implementing The Labour Party generally supports this action may also specify how any the Bill. It has the general support of assets of the previous council are to the credit unions and of the body that be disposed of and allows the Governor represents most of the credit unions in in Council to determine any rights, this State, the Victorian Credit Co­ obligations or liabilities and to give Operative Association Ltd. The Bill such directions on this matter as he itself is the result of very wide con­ thinks fit. sultation and discussion in the com­ In the cases which give rise to the munity, which began with the tabling proposed amendments, such assets, of a draft report, either at the end Mr Lacy 2 Decemher 1981] Co-operation Bill 4047 of last year or at the beginning of to member owners by rebate by way this year. That procedure is one that of services or by the creation of I think the Government is beginning reserves. to learn-it is far better to establish For some time now, credit unions major reforms, or major rewritings have been seeking a major rewrite of of an Act of Parliament such as this, the Act to update it to the demands through discussion, and negotiation of a more modern era. In fact, detailed over a length of time. That whole atti­ discussions have proceeded over the tude seemed to be forgotten over the two years that I have mentioned. Sub­ incidence of stamp duty being imposed missions were made to the Registrar on credit union cheques, but perhaps, of Co-operative Societies, senior offi­ having forgotten it, the Government cers of the department, and to the will be more prepared to enter into Minister, and the main areas with reasonable discussion. which the credit unions were concerned The draft idea of this legislation has were the definition of the objects­ been amongst credit unions in this and I am not certain that is right in State for nearly two years and, as the Bill-with the powers, with loan the Minister pointed out, there are procedures, with strengthening the re­ more than 1400 societies, with an serve funds powers, exemption of . aggregate membership of more than credit unions, and special investiga­ 500000 people in this State. That tions, under eighteen-year-olds as means that 15 per cent of the popu­ members, pecuniary interest not to lation of this State are members of exclude the directors from holding co-operatives. That number, as the office, and liquidity conventions. Minister pointed out, is growing all In the main, the measure gives effect the time. to most of the changes the credit unions have been requesting. The amendments This Bill is a major overhaul of the will simply permit credit unions to legislation. In fact, the last major over­ operate more efficiently and effectively haul of legislation affecting co-opera­ in servicing the requirements of their tives in this State, credit unions in members. particular, took place as long ago as 1958. Since that time there have been The proposals, as I indicated, a~e only two relatively minor amendments, designed to bring the Victorian legisla­ one in 1976 setting up the credit re­ tion into a much more modern, and in serve fund, and another in 1979 when many ways far more compeHtive, era. amendments were introduced, again The existing law is not very appropri­ without consultation on that occasion, ate. The only way in which a credit to broaden the capacity of investment union can lend for the purpose of pur­ pOwers. chasing a motor car at present ils to do so under a section that states inter alia: The co-operative and distinctive To discharge an obligation. feature of credit unions still exist as That is not realistic in this day and age. they did twenty years ago in Victoria, The great bulk of people who go to their and 150 years ago in Europe, where local or industrial credit unions do so the whole concept was created. Credit for the purpose of gaining assistance unions are, by definition, a unique and to buy consumer goods. democratic financial institution. They The amendmen;ts proposed by the all have a defined common bond, which Bill are designed to allow for the tech­ stipulates the group of people from nological developments that have taken which the membership can be drawn. place within the finance industry, such Each member has only one vote, irre­ as the development of credit cards and spective of the level of savings or of more modern and sophisticated elec­ shares held, and every member is tronic equipment. Credit unions, li~e eligible to be elected to the board of building societies and other financIal directors, and any. surplus or profit institutions, have to be able to compete from trading can be only distributed and they need to do so on a more equal 4048 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY

footing than they have at present. The Party. They do not care about the hard­ Bill is certainly an attempt to give credit ship and suffering that is being imposed unions a structure that will help to make on members of the com'munity because them more competitive. That is neces­ the Liberal Governin'ent has imposed sary because of current changes in our higher interest rates, but it is a matter society, some imposed by Liberal Party for great concern to members on the philosophy, like the Liberal Party higher Opposition side of the House. interest rates. Mr Miller-Last night Government Mr Williams-Because of inflation supporters let a Bill go through that rates caused by the unions! would permit the charging of interest Mr CATHIE-The honourable mem­ rates of up to 48 per cent! ber is upset about the fact that th'e party Mr CATHIE-I am reminded by the of which he is a member has imposed honourable member for Prahran, that the far higher and sharper increases in inter­ Government has so little concern-- est rates than have ever before been imposed in the history of Australia. That Mr KENNE'IT (M'inister of Hous'ing)­ is a problem for the honourable mem­ I raise a point of order. The honourable ber for Doncaster, and he has to live member for Carrum is now somewhat with it, but, unfortunately, iit is also a away from the Co-operation Bill, which problem that faces everybody else in the is 'the Bill before the House. The Camp­ community, not just the small business bell com'mittee and other matters of that people but also th~. people who are at sort are not of concern to the Bill, and present purchasing their own homes and I suggest that the honourable member the people who are in the queue to be­ should return to the Bill. come home purchasers. Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-On the point of order, this is a Bill of some 201 The credit unions have to compete in pages and 253 clauses. It covers every­ a system that is ·structured, at least at thing to do with credit unions and, as the Federal level, in such a way that the everybody knows, they are in the finan­ Federal Government organized the cial markets of this country to lend Campbell committee so that it would money. They lend money out at increas­ bring down recommendations calling for ing rates of interest because, like every­ the deregulation of interest rates. body else, they are forced to compete. "Deregulation" is really only a fancy Therefore, I am dealing with the Bill word meaning that the Liberal Party when talking about the difficulties faced does not want the Government to have by credit unions and referring to the control over interest rates. That is what Campbell report and the effects of the it means. If the Federal Government report. were to act on the findings of the Campbell committee, the immediate re­ The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Rich­ sult for anybody now purchasing a ardson)--Order! I note the point raised home or a prospective home purchaser by the Minister and I also note the com~ using bank finance would be much ments of the honourable member for higher interest rates. Carrum. Both points have validity. I do not uphold the point of order raised by Mr Birrell-That is not necessarily the Mini'ster of Housing, because the so. Bill is concerned with money, interest Mr CATHIE-The honourable mem­ rates and creditt. The Campbell report ber for Geelong West says that that is also deals with thos'e matters. not necessarily so, but everybody who I do, however, make the point to the has commented on the CampbeU report, honourable 'me'mber for Carrum that the including the ~rime Minister and the Bill relates specifically to the Victorian Treasurer of this country, has said that situation. While I have indicated that the immediate result of the implementa­ it is perfectly valid for the honourable tion of the recommendations would be member to make a reference to wider increased :interest rates. That probably economic issues, it is not in order for does not worry members of the Liberal him to devote his speech to a canvassing 2 De·cember 1981] . Co-operation Bill 4049 of national economic issues, nor should give him a lecture on it at this time, his speech be based on the Campbell but it was the beginning of the co­ report. operative movement. A small group of Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-I assure you ~eavers got together to fight exploita­ Mr Acting Speaker, that my speech is tion, and that fight is being carried on not based on the Campbell report. I have just as strongly in today's economic made only a passing reference to it, but climate. I am glad you have ruled that honour­ All the Minister can do is parrot able members have the right to deal with something off. One would have thought the existing situation in Victoria, be­ that, having misled the public in one cause I was reminded by the honourable direction, he would not wish to mislead member for Prahran that only last night in another direction. members of the Government party stood in their places and supported a Bill that At least two points in the Minister's would allow interest rates to go as high second-reading speech require further as 48 per cent. That is a 'shocking posi­ clarification. On page 5 of that speech tion for any Government to adopt. for example, he spoke of the intention Credit unions face other difficulties of the Government to further regulate in competing at present because of loans made by credit societies. The Bill other changes to Victorian legislation. contains more than 250 clauses. If the That applies particularly to the recent Government intends to impose other curbs on credit unions, one would have am~ndments to the principal Act gov­ ernmg permanent building societies, thought that those further restrictions which allow for trustee status. Those should be written into the Bill or that provisions will certainly assist building the Minister should tell Parliament and societies. but they will make it a little the people precisely what further regu­ more difficult for the credit unions to lations he has in mind, but that is all survive because they have to get money he said. Honourable members are in the dark as to what is in the Minister's in in order to lend money out. mind. I have been trying to point out to the Minister that that is a particularly On page 10 of the second-reading difficult thing to do, given the current speech, the Minister referred to fees economic climate in Australia, where and said that they will be set under we have an economic policy and philos­ regulations made by the Governor in ophy that is forcing up interest rates Council. Clause 252 (1) (d) provides and creaming off a good deal of invest­ that the Governor in Council may make ment capital for a resources boom, regulations in respect of money mat­ much of which is speculative. The ters and that fees may be prescribed direct result is that housing has be­ for the registration of societies and come the first major casualty of the the lodgment of documents. The Min­ resources boom. I hope that point is ister indicated that the Government beginning to get through to the com­ may wish to levy further charges, and munity and to the Australian electorate that point needs further clarification. If at large. the Government intends to levy further fees and charges on credit unions, hon­ As I said, the Minister's second­ ourable members ought to be told pre­ reading speech was certainly compre­ cisely the sort of fees the Minister has hensive, and I complimented him on in mind and the extent to which he his support for Socialism. I hope he has intends to increase fees and charges. now become a convert to the co-oper­ I should hope that community advance­ ative movement and the principles of ment societies, which are often formed co-operation. to assist schools, would be exempt, Mr Hann-That is not Socialism! although the Minister says that exemp­ Mr CATHIE-Of course it is Social­ tions will be minimal and he gives ism. The honourable member has not no indication of what is meant by "min­ gone back to read the history of nine­ imal". He may give some description teenth century England, and I shall not later of what he has in mind. 4050 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY I wish to deal with in some detail at specific clauses that provide the mech­ least two fundamental matters which anism for achieving that result. The are dealt with at some length in the protection simply is not there. Bill. The first matter is the guarantee body and the guarantee fund, and the Under clause 29 (3) and (4), claims second relates to liquidity. on the fund are specifically limited to a sum not exceeding $2 million. The In this Bill, the Government is trying protection which the Bill provides for to give further -protection to members credit unions and their individual mem­ of credit unions in this State. In bers does not extend beyond $2 mil­ attempting to provide further protec­ lion and yet it is a $700 million in­ tion, the Government makes itself a dustry. How does $2 million protection party to a guarantee fund which is at cover an industry that has a backing least partly exposed, and I will ex­ of $700 million? An immediate limita­ plain that. The guarantee fund is not tion is written into the Bill! The Bill wholly protected and, in those circum­ is aimed specifically at providing that stances, the person who deposits his protection but the mechanism estab­ money with a credit union cannot be lished does not provide sufficient pro­ wholly protected either. His money, in tection at all. the final analysis, comes from the in­ I am reminded that some twelve dividuals who come in th.rough the door months ago a similar example arose in cif the office, and that money will be relation to building societies in this exposed if individual credit unions State which operate under a similar should get into difficulty, guarantee fund. As a result of the negli­ I will examine the clauses of the gence of the Government, a building Bill that deal with this specific point. society for which the Government was The general reserve fund has specific, responsible, the Twentieth Century stated objectives but, on reading fur­ Building Society, collapsed with debts ther through the Bill and the details totalling $2·2 million. Eighteen months of the mechanism -provided in it, one earlier, when that society's debts finds that those stated objectives do not totalled only $800 000, the Government achieve what the Government pretends had been told that that building society they will achieve. If a crisis point should be wound up. Because the Gov­ should be reached by credit unions in ernment was negligent and put the this State, the guarantee fund will be matter into the too-hard basket, almost insufficient to meet that crisis point. half of the general reserve fund for We are examining the extent to which building societies in this State was the objects of the Bill and of the wiped out by that collapse. Nonethe­ guarantee fund are supported and pro­ less, the only figure the Minister has tected by the Bill, the protection of the provided in the Bill is the $2 million membership of credit unions and the guarantee fund to protect an industry protection of the industry, and there that is worth $700 million. seems to be a lack of protection. Clause On looking further into the Bill, one 21 makes the position- clear. Under finds at least ·a number of other sup­ that clause, the Credit Societies' porting elements to that protection Guarantee Fund is established and sub­ that need examination. The contribu­ clause (2) of that clause states, inter tions of each credit union to the alia: guarantee fund total 1 per cent of its assets. It is not the individual union's (2) The fund is established to provide- money; it is money that belongs to the (a) proteotion for members of credit societies depositors. We are really considering which are being or have been wound up and for persons who give credit to or what protection exists for the people lend money to or deposit money with who deposit money in credi t unions credit societies; and credit societies in this State. That is clear enough, but the title is Money can be injected into a number misleading because the claim to provide of individual credit unions from this protection is not carried through in the guarantee fund and, if that were done, Mr Cathie 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4051 it would reduce the funds considerably of 1 per cent per annum of total assets. below the $2 million mentioned in the There is a limitation again and whether Bill. that is wise, when one does not know the type of crises that may face credit The Bill pretends to provide over-all unions in the future, I do not know, protection, but it is misleading to call but the Minister of Housing ought to the fund a guarantee fund when it make some statement in response to offers only limited protection for the the general argument ,to indicate why vast amounts of money that I have mentioned. The fund will be exposed to the one-half of 1 per cent is considered movements in the money market and sufficient and adequate to meet all fut­ the situation may arise where credit ure crises that the credit union indus­ unions will not be able to try may face in the future. raise additional funds under the A guarantee fund is only as good mechanisms set out in the Bill. For as its capacity at any point and these example, clause 29 sets out a limit clauses simply limit that c'apacity. If of $2 million and provides a number one limits the capacity, one is limiting of other steps that can be taken. the ability of the general reserve fund For example, under clause 29 (1), a or guarantee fund to raise m'oney at liquidator of a credit society can do a point of crisis. There is in the clauses a number of things and only at the an additional levy to be determined by end of that list is the provision that the advisory committee, which would the advisory comm1ittee may order no doubt cover instances of when a payment of a sum not exceeding $2 society is being wound up, and I do million. That sum is not enough. I have not need to remind honourable mem­ spoken before of the use of the word, bers of the report in the Herald of "may"; it may be better to use "shall", the collapse of Mythin Homes owing I do not know, but if one simply says something like $4 million and the many that the advisory committee "may small tradesmen in the community who order", one cannot be talking of a are now unsecured creditors and will complete protection of people's money lose tens of ,thousands of dollars as a that has been placed in credit unions result of that collapse. and societies. It is not a guarantee fund in the sense defined, that is, a Mr Wilkes-And their livelihoods! fund that offers to provide protection. Mr CATHIE-In many cases, those small tradesmen will lose their live­ The argument I put is that the wider lihoods through no fault of their own. the discretion that exists in the Bill the When a society is being wound up, greater ability for any guarantee body those persons who have lost money or Minister, as in the case of clause should get the full value of the dollar. 21(c), to decide simply to sit on the fence and do nothing. There needs to I am concerned at the clauses that be a wider discretion not only for limit the capacity of the guarantee that point but also for other points. fund ,to carry 'Out the objects of the For example, the power to appropri­ Bill. Clause 25(1) prescribes that the ate 1 per cent of assets is included advisory committee may at any time in the Bill but there is no guarantee order a credit society to pay to the that any individual will get the benefit fund an amount of money by way of of that because of the discretion set compulsory loan 'at a prescribed rate out in the measure. Certainly, the fund of 'interest. No doubt, the Minister of will build up and the other provisions Housing might say that there isa point in the measure allow a return of a at which they can meet a crisis that proportion of contributions and that is beginning,' but honourable members dividends and interest payments can should imagine some other intangibles. be made-they are covered. On the I am not sure whether the source advisory committee-for example, was in Sydney or Queensland but some clause 24(l)-the committee is empow­ time ago an irresponsible journalist ered to call up an additional one-half started 'a general run on credit unions 4052 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY and building societies. If, because of for loans being made directly by the some madness that happened and a Government or the Tre'asurer to co­ general run developed on a particular operative societies. The Victorian financial institution, what then would Credit Co-operative Association Ltd be the capacity of individual credit would welcome similar provisions to unions faced with a run to provide the South Australian Act in the Vic­ further loan moneys to the guarantee torian Act, which would enable the fund in order to prevent that run Victorian Government, through the occurring? Treasurer, to lend money to the guar­ There are many difficulties in the antee fund or to provide guarantees Bill. These clauses need further ex­ to any institutions lending money. The plan'ation from the Minister. The Credit Unions Act 1976 of South Aus­ method prescribed in clause 25 might tralia, section 95 states: not be operable in a panic situation. 95. (1) The Board may borrow from the Treasurer, or, with the consent of the Treasurer, Again, clause 23(2) states that the from any other person for the purpose of advisory committee shall, .on applica­ carrying out any of its functions under this Act. tion by the credit society, pay to the (2) Any liability incurred with the consent society the amount of the excess not of ,the Treasurer under sub-section (1) of this later that three months after the re­ section is hereby guaranteed by the Treasurer. ceipt of application. The word, "shall" (3) Any liability incurred by the Treasurer is limiting; it should be, "may" . If under a ~uarantee arising by virtue of sub­ section (2) of ,this section shall be satisfied out the. guarantee body at a particular of the general revenue of this State which is point has to pay back to individual hereby, ,to the necessary extent, appropriated credit unions funds that have been acoordingly. lodged with the gU'arantee fund, that I have no doubt th1at given the nominal will not assist the development of flexi­ rights of not only building societies in bility. The reserve in the guarantee, the past decade but also credit unions, among other things, will remove the should a crisis develop by whatever risk of bad management and this clause means that may happen in the future, should keep individual managers a lot the Government of the day would have more wary and proficient. to support those bodies. That being the The only other mechanism I can case, it is realistic, as South Australia see to support .the guarantee fund is in has done, to specify that right in the clauses 219 and 220 whereby the Trea­ legislation. If the Govern'ment does surer may execute a guarantee but, as that, it will improve the degree of I read those specific clauses, they do protection that the guarantee fund is not appear to apply to credit unions meant to provide. although they do apply to other aspects The second major issue I shall deal of the legislation. A figure of $20 with is that of liquidity. I notice that minion is mentioned but that is in­ clause 18 is different from the proposed sufficient. In a few years time the clause in the draft Bill. From memory, effect of inflation will reduce that the draft BiIl specifically stated a figure amount even further. of 7 per cent, but clause 18 provides Honourable members should examine no figure. It is described thus: the South. Australian legislation, and . . . the society holds liquid funds of not less in particular section 95 of the Credit than such percentage as is prescribed . . . Unions Act 1976, which authorizes that My understanding is that means to board to borrow from the South Aus­ imply at least a provision of 7 per cent tralian Treasurer or obtain his guaran­ for liquidity purposes. tee for any borrowings in advance. I point out to the Minister of Hous­ The Victorian Bill deals with Govern­ ing that there are many credit unions ment guarantees for co-operative soci­ in this State that have not achieved the eties and excludes, by definition, guar­ figure of 7 per cent liquidity and that antees for credit societies from the is a dangerous position which strikes guarantee fund. Unlike the South Aus­ at the future health and development tralian legislation, there is n'O provision of credit unions in the State. Mr Cathie 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4053 The latest figures I have are to 30 to a higher rate of interest on loans. June 1981, and they are based on the When one examines the average dura­ quarterly returns of 144 credit unions tion of loans made by credit unions, that had their quarterly returns pro­ the quarterly returns reveal that the cessed by the registrar. Of those credit average loan duration is approximately unions 38 had less than 7 per cent 24 months or 2 years and the average liquidity-a minority, but nevertheless loan outstanding is $3000. When one a sufficiently high figure to cause some compares the liquidity provisions in the concern. Some 33 credit unions had a Building Societies Act of 10 per cent liquidity figure of between 7 and 10 per and the fact that loans operate for cent and the majority, 74 of the 144- much longer periods in that area of that is half of them-had a liquidity activity, a 7 per cent figure seems figure of more than 10 per cent. One reasonable for credit unions. It appears can certainly state that those credit to be sufficient, at least in average unions were in a particularly healthy circumstances. It certainly is a figure position, but the Bill does not specify which could be termed as a pruden~ what the liquidity ratio should be and management liquidity for all credit I submit that it should be at least 7 unions in this State. There would be no per cent for some of the reasons I shall serious diminution in the level of acti­ now outline. vity and in the majority of cases, a liquidity figure of 7 per cent could be The Victorian Credit Co-operative easily handled. However, if a credit Association Ltd developed a compre­ union got into difficulties, that liquidity hensive liquidity proposal which was figure could be handled by the cash in­ submitted to the registrar when it was flow from loan repayments with no suggested that a draft Bill be prepared. further loans being advanced. The draft proposal was amended by removing the reference to 7 per cent However, I notice that tl'\e South and providing for the liquidity level to Australian Act provides a figure of 7 be prescribed by regulation. per cent, but there is capacity to vary the level by regulation. The same is It is understood that the regulations would provide for an upwards or down­ true in Western Australia and a similar wards variation. I hope they will not prescription is being provided in legis­ provide for a downward variation be­ lation that is being drafted in Queens­ low 7 per cent and I hope that it will land. In South Australia the level is 9 never be expected that a downward per cent, but that includes the 2 per adjustment would occur. If any credit cent contribution that has to be made union was suffering from a liquidity to the State stabilization fund. If one problem and there was a variation looks at overseas precedents and inter­ downwards, it would result in the credit state comparisons and takes into ac­ union being less profitable. I submit count the nature of industry in Victoria, that a figure of 7 per cent is a reason­ it would appear that a figure of 7 per able figure to provide for, given that cent is a reasonable one. a substantial majority are already above In many ways this is a Committee that figure. However, those credit Bill and the other matters I shall deal unions that are under 7 per cent should with can be considered when the be given some time-it is necessary for clauses are being dealt with by the them to be given that time in order to Committee. Perhaps I shall leave the adjust to the new regulations and the question of amalgamation and transfer new requirements. of engagement, about which I want to If we go the other way and create say something, to when the Bill is con­ too high a figure as the liquidity re­ sidered during the Committee stage. quirement for credit unions, that will The measure is a good one. The Op­ lead to increased costs and therefore position is supporting the Bill and it a reduction of profitability as an operat­ will be attempting to improve the Bill ing margin has to be maintained leading by proposing some amendments. I 4054 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY notice that the Minister of Housing also that not only because of the difficulties has a long list of amendments and the that were faced by a credit union Opposition will not be opposing those located in the area which I represent, amendments. I hope that general at­ but also because I am concerned for the titude of co-operation, particularly see­ future health of this industry and I ing this is a Co-operation Bill, will only hope it will go on to further persist and that the attitude of the strength as a result of the passing of Government and the Christmas spirit this measure. suggested by the Minister of Housing will mean that the Minister will be pre­ Mr HANN (Rodney)-The National pared to accept amendments moved by Party supports the Bill. It believes very the Opposition, particularly as they are much in the spirit and principle of co­ designed to improve the measure and operation. At the outset, the suggestion the spirit of co-operation in the com­ or inference made by the honourable munity. member for Carrum early in his speech that this measure could be termed 'The provisions contained in this mea­ Socialist legislation is absolute and sure will not work unless there is some utter nonsense because the whole spirit staffing behind it. It is no good estab­ of co-operation is the involvement of lishing a new mechanism with wider people joining together. It appears to powers and appointing advisory com­ me that members of the Opposition, mittees unless behind that mechanism who are the very rabid left-wing Socia­ there is sufficient staff to implement the lists in this Parliament, do not under­ intentions of the Bill. It is no good stand the basis of their own philosophy coming into the Parliament and time and that is basically that Socialism is and again passing legislation when there the State running the whole system. is no staff to ensure that the laws are properly implemented and carried out. That is the Labor Party's philosophy I was disturbed to learn that on 10 and what it is strongly advocating in October 1980 there were ten inspectors this place. Co-operation is something on the staff of the registry and fifteen contrary to it. Co-operation is far re­ months later that has now risen to moved from Socialism and it is some­ eleven. There has been hardly any thing that has been highly successful change to staffing arrangements in the over the past 140 years, as the Min­ registry, which has the responsibility ister indicated when the weavers in for implementing this legislation. In the small town of Rochdale in Lan­ other words, I do not believe there has cashire got together as a group and each put in tuppence to form a local been any increase at all. Although a co-operative. Since then, world-wide, vacancy may have been filled, the numerous co-operatives have been Minister cannot claim that there has formed, particularly in Victoria. Since been a 10 per cent improvement in staff. the legislation was first introduced in I understand that the Public Service this Parliament in 1953, Victoria has Board has given approval for the appoint­ had a number of significant co­ ment of five additional staff members, operative movements. but I submit to the Government that staff ceilings imposed in the past have I would like to comment on the fact been catastrophic. I understand that that there are various types of co­ there was originally a staff ceiling of operative societies listed in the Bill. 49 in the registry, but that has been Co-operatives may include a producers cut back to 46. There will not be the society; a trading society; a community proper development and implementation settlement society; a community ad­ of this type of legislation unless there vancement society; a credit society; an is adequate staffing. association of co-operative societies; a Staff are needed to check the figures federation of co-operative associations, provided by the credit unions and the co-operative societies and of authorized figures provided by the auditors to societies and companies. I shall deal make sure that they are correct. I say with producers co-operatives firstly. A Mr Cathie 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4055 number of significant co-operative responsible for constructing a new movements in Victoria would have public hall out of the mechanisms of turnovers of millions of dollars. the Co-operation Act in facilitating the local fund raising for that project. The The Murr~y Goulburn Co-op~lfltive co-operative raised about $80 000 from Company Ltd is a highly successful the local community. Therefore, that co-operative and the largest single mechanism resulted in the construction dairy manufacturing company in this of the hall in the town, costing about State. Over the years, it has had its $200000. difficulties, but all companies have diffi­ culties. It has been an excellent Community advancement societies example of co-operation by individuals have provided important facilities who set out to achieve the target of around the countryside. For example, providing greater prosperity to their they have provided schools, scout halls, individual dairy farms. I shall quote sporting and youth clubs, construction from the theme of the co-operative ~n of public school buildings, development its interpretation of co-operation. It of school camps arid so forth. They states: have provided a wide range of activities A way of life ... Co-operation is more than a and every honourable member in this business-it is a way of life. Carried to its House has probably at one time or ultimate conclusion-Co-operation can bring another been involved with the co­ to the world . . . Peace-Prosperity-and Con­ tentment. But the individual must play his operative society in their own com­ part in the plan. Co-operation is based on munity. That is something that the Christian service. Each for all and all for each. National Party welcomes. It has pro­ That is an apt discription of what co­ vided an important mechanism ·and the operation is. If one considers the other key to it is the Government guarantee significant producer co-operatives in that the co-operatives are able to bor­ this State, one notes that the most row loan funds to go ahead and con­ highly successful is the Phosphate Co­ struct the facilities. operative Co. of Australia Ltd, which now The honourable member for Carrum has virtually a total monopoly on phos­ dealt with credit unions in some detail. pha te, and this is for the benefit of all They have become an important area individual producers throughout the in the short time that I have been a State who use large quantities of super­ member of Parliament, which is about phosphate, in particular, and other fer­ eight years. The Kyabram credit union, tilizers. There are various other dairy started out with a turnover oJ manufacturing co-operatives, producers, thousands of dollars, but its turnover manufacturing and marketing co­ is now millions of dollars. That is an operatives such as Acmal Trading Ltd, excellent example of people joining to­ Gippsland and Northern Co. Ltd, Vic­ gether to form a credit union so that torian Producers' Co-operative Co. Ltd, local people are involved as directors and a number of smaller co-operatives and provide the avenue for local in that category. finance to be lent back to local people These co-operatives have all com­ to assist them to purchase their various bined to ensure that the producer requirements. selling through those organizations get That is significant because it means the maximum possible return and re­ that the finance in a community is bate on his selling costs. One of the regenerated in that community, where­ most important area of co-operatives as with most of the other lending and probably the largest single member institutions, persons making deposits of the co-operative movement is the with that lending institution will find community advancement society. These that the money is not necessarily lent societies in most instances are small back into the community. For those co-operatives. I should declare an in­ reasons, credit unions have been highly terest in this case-it is not a pecuniary' successful. It places a great deal of interest-as I am a director of a small responsjbility on those individuals, par­ co-opera tive in Lockington, which was ticularly when one realizes the growth 4056 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY rate that I have mentioned, such as at I shall avoid making any observations Kyabram. It places responsibility on about that matter because an appeal the directors, particularly in the finan­ by the person involved in the case is cial management area. They have pending before the Supreme Court. handled that responsibility effectively However, I shall comment on some and well and if all credit unions are aspects of a report presented to Par­ as successful as the Kyabram credit liament by Mr Chernov on his inquiry union, Victoria has a great deal to into the Co-operative Farmers and benefit from in the long run in the Graziers Direct Meat Supply Ltd, in provision of finance at the local com­ which he recommended a number of munity level. I refer not only to finance legislative amendments to the Co-oper­ and loans, but also to the investment ation Act. Apparently, the Government of local people in local credit co­ has not included all those amendments operatives in order to fund an organi­ in the present Bill. If that is the case, zation. it is a matter of regret and the National I express alarm at this stage in look­ Party would be alarmed about that. ing at the annual report of the Regis­ The report presented by Mr Chernov trar of Co-operative Societies which to the Parliament stated at page 354 was presented to Parliament on 30 that when a scheme of arrangement is June 1978. That is surprising, because entered into and an administrator in my experience the registrar, Mr appointed, it is essential to ensure that Jungwirth, is a. man who has given the interests of the members of the genuine and de.dicated service to the society are protected against an abuse co-operative society movement and has of power by the administrator. carried out his role in an efficient and able manner. I am surprised and dis­ He went on to say that the directors appointed that the most recent report should preferably be the existing direct­ presented to this Parliament by the ors at the time when a co-operative Registrar of Co-operative Societies was went into receiveship or into a scheme presented on 30 June 1978. The Co­ of arrangement. Its members would, operation Act indicates that the regis­ rightly or wrongly attribute blame for trar must present the report to Parlia­ this to the board of directors and thus ment as soon. as possible after the end lose confidence in it and consequently, of the particular financial year. It as a first step, it is suggested tha t seems that the report has been pre­ members should be given an opportu­ sented too late. The Minister should nity of electing a new board within, take up the matter or explain the say, two months after the commence­ reasons why this has occurred. ment of the scheme. It may be that the members will choose to retain the It makes it difficult for honourable same directors. members to debate the Bill and under­ He went on to say: stand the current situation of co­ A statutory requirement could be imposed on operative societies, and it particula~ly the Administrator of a Scheme to report fully indicates ·a lack of respect for ParlIa­ to the new directors at regular intervals about ment and a lack of recognition of the the affairs of the Co-operative which he is importance of Parliament. The Act administering. It does not follow, of course, th~t the directors should not be divested of their indicates that reports ought to be usual powers during the Scheme's operations presented as soon as possible after the or that the AdministraJtor should not. have v~ry end of the financial year. The 1978 wide powers under it. However, notwlths~andmg report was presented two and a half any such provisions of a Scheme, the directors should be given specific powers to apply to t~e years late and the 1979 report has still Court if they form the opinion tha! ~he mater~al not been presented. That was the situa­ 50 presented to them by the Ad~ml~trato~ d~s­ tion when I checked the Papers Office closes an abuse of his powers which IS preJudic­ of Parliament today. The co-operative ial to the interests of the Co-operative or its movement in this State has had a members. chequered career a!ld is. still s~m­ The Government has certainly included mering with the ImpendIng actIon in the Bill provision for the appoint­ of this measure on 8 December. ment of an administrator. In 1968, when Mr Cathie 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4057 the first administrator was appointed, administrator of the co-operative should there was a legal doubt whether a co­ indicate the names of the companies operative could have an administrator or organizations with which he or appointed by the Supreme Court. That members of his firm are connected in que~y was raised at the time by the the relevant sense. RegIstrar of Co-operative Societies but the decision was upheld and the ad:nini­ It goes on to state, as I said earlier, strator was appointed. He was given that the responsibilities of the directors virtually sole control, although the ought to be clearly spelt out under the directors were still in office, but he was Co-operation Act, that a copy of this not required to provide them with document which sets out their responsi­ specific, detailed information. After bilities ought to be made available to about six years the co-operative totally them, and that they ought to have to collapsed, for reasons explained in the sign it to show that they have received Chernov report which related to the a copy of the document setting out recommendations that these amend­ the responsibilities of a director. At ments ought to have been included. The present it is unclear, according to Mr weakness in that situation was that Chernov, what the responsibilities of no one had the power to police the the individual directors are. If pro­ day-to-day activities of the adminis­ vision has not been included in the trator. Bill relating to amendments under the Companies Act, it ought to be included .. T~e Minister may well argue that the RegIstrar of Co-operative Societies will The whole sorry saga of Co-oper­ now have that power because he has ative Farmers and Graziers Direct Meat the capacity to appoint the adminis­ Supply Ltd highlights the problems trator, rather than the appointment that a co-operative society can get into, being made by the Supreme Court. particularly when it is competing in the Once again, from my experience, I be­ marketplace against some of the big lieve that suitable people who can private companies, as was the case in recognize the interests of the members this instance. The co-operative was com­ of that society are needed. peting aga~~st large meat companies which have powerful vested reasons Although I may be wrong, in which for not wanting· a co-operative to case I shall be happy to withdraw the survive. implication, I believe the Bill repeats that situation by allowing an admini­ When the co-operative first went strator to have sole control over the into receivership in the late 1960s, that operations of the society subject to was brought about through pressure the registrar. But members of the from meat works through the financial society are not being reappointed to institutions, and this effectively caused play a watchdog role on the activities its collapse. The co-operative eventu­ of that administrator. I ask the Minister ally managed to get out of that situation to clarify whether that provision has and improved its standing, but because been included. If it has not, I should of matters referred to in the Chernov like to know why it has not been, report and the· difficulties of placing particularly as Mr Chernov made a a director in a position where no one strong recommendation that it ought was policing him, the co-operative once to have been included. again got into difficulties, and has had a chequered career since then. The The other aspects of the recommen­ Victorian Government and the Federal dations of Mr Chernov to which I refer Government could lose several millions relate to the responsibilities of of dollars in loan guarantees unless a directors. He recommends in his pro­ posals on legislative changes that reasonable return price is given for directors ought to be advised of their the purchase of the co-operative at the responsibilities, and that before they sale next Tuesday. The Government are appointed to a society, some sort ought to have provided financial assist-· of document ought to be released. The ance to the co-operative when it was 4058 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY requested two years ago to allow it to of it. The National Party does not continue trading, although it is appre­ believe this is Socialism; the honour­ ciated that this was a difficult period. able member for Carrum should sort In Victoria it looks as though the out his philosophies! Co-operation is meat industry will come back into the quite contrary to that and provides a hands of three of four major operators, valid mechanism for people to come and ultimately that will dramatically together in co-operation and improve reduce the competition in the industry. their way of life. I support the Bill and I am sure that honourable members in commend it to the House. the House who are involved in the Mr KENNETI (Minister of Housing)­ meat industry must be alarmed at that, I thank the honourable members for particularly when one considers two Rodney and Carrum for their construc­ of the major operators involved. tive review of the Bill and contribution One important aspect of the Bill to the debate. The Bill has taken two which I mentioned previously when the years to prepare and I also thank the Minister made his second-reading people within the Ministry of Housing speech is that the Government dis­ for the work undertaken in preparing tributed copies of the Bill widely the Bill to this stage. Those people throughout the community, and I com­ endeavoured to knock" out as many of mend it for that because it is a compli­ the faults as possible from the system cated piece of legislation. Instead of to ensure that the co-operative move­ the Ministry. of Housing introducing ment in the future will be as viable as the Bill and allowing two or three possible. weeks for the House to consider it and for honourable members to dis­ It would only be fair to say at this tribute copies to interested bodies, the stage that although the Government Ministry advertised about twelve hopes the Bill will fulfil its task, it is months ago that the Bill had been pre­ also probable that after the measure pared, that a draft copy was available has been enacted, continual monitoring and that people could write to the will be necessary to fine-tune it even Ministry and obtain copies. I obtained further. Obviously the Government is a copy at that time, as did a signifi­ prepared to do so. cant number of other people, and it The honourable member for Rodney provided an excellent opportunity for referred to the annual report of the people to consider its ramifications and co-operative societies. I do not know to put their points of view. Probably why the 1979 report has not been pro­ the reason that the Bill lack·s any major duced. I can appreciate why the 1980 controversy is that it was widely annual report has not appeared. Obvi­ circulated in advance. ously one of the difficulties in prepar­ I commend the Minister, the Ministry ing an annual report revolves around of Housing and the Registrar of Co­ the compilation of documentation from operative Societies. This approach numerous societies. That difficulty may should be adopted with other proposed justifiably explain the absence of the legislation because it provides an 1980 report and I shall conduct opportunity for the public to respond. inquiries to discover why the 1979 When the Bill finally comes before the report was not presented. House, it means that a wide circle of The honourable member for Rodney people have had an opportunity of also pointed out that the Bill covers providing input. not only credit unions; it also covers Depending on the response of the co-operatives, community advancement Minister I shall pursue these matters societies, community settlement during the Committee stage. The societies, producers societies, and trad­ ~ational Party strongly supports the Ing societies. This will have wide rami­ rewriting of the Co-operation Bill. Our fications throughout the community. party is a strong advocate of co­ The honourable member for Rodney operation and believes in the philosophy also mentioned clause 163 which deals Mr Cathie 2 Dece'mber 1981] Co-operation Bill 4059 with the appointment of an adminis­ Mr KENNETT-The interests of the ·trator. Most honourable members, society must be protected. The Bill has regardless of their politics, would been prepared by the Government of i"ealize that an administrator would be the day which represents the majority appointed only if a society were in real of the community. Once a co-operative difficulties. The Government does not is back on its feet its affairs should be want to usurp the rights of individuals returned to the contr,ol of the share­ -either within municipal councils or holders and members of the co­ co-operatives-who have formed a operative. partnership. I assure the honourable member that so long as I am respons­ The honourable member for Carrum ible for this area an administrator will mentioned the guarantee fund and be appointed only as a matter of repeatedly referred to the fact that if urgency. an organization is responsible for $7 million and the guarantee is limited to. I appreciate the point made by the $2 million, the potential protection is honourable member for Rodney. A restricted. The Bill goes on to state difficulty arises because invariably that the advisory committee may order directors of a co-operative have the that a sum not exceeding $2 000 000 total responsibility. If the directors are or such other amounts as is prescribed -still in the area when an administrator be paid out of the fund. Therefore, the is appointed an impasse can be reached. flexibility exists for the provision of a Often the administrator has to tidy up larger figure. an untidy situation, and that is the basic reason why he is appointed in the I also agree that line 8 on page 25 first place. I assure the honourable of the 'Bill is ambiguous. That portion member for Rodney that an admin­ of clause 29 deals with the claim by istrator would be brought in under the liquidator and refers to a sum not adverse conditions only where rights exceeding the amount of the likely and privileges of members of a credit deficiency or $2 000 000 or such other union or co-operative were at risk. amount as is prescrib~d whichever is the least. The likely deficiency covers Mr Hann-What about the Chernov ,the total deficiency or $2 000 000 or report? other amounts as prescribed, whichever Mr KENNEIT-The Government has is the least. I accept the ambiguity and to make a decision, and it is recognized I shall examine the matter. that, whilst the directors are left to Mr Cathi&-Before the Bill goes to control an organization, someone has another place? to decide whether an administrator is necessary. A conflict of interests arises Mr KENNEIT-Yes. I agree that because it is often difficult for the ambiguity exists concerning the amount directors to give up the reins and not of money involved when a liquidator influence the thinking of the admin­ is appointed. I shall make sure the istrator who is appointed to undertake matter is further examined between corre'ctive work and put the organiza­ here and another place. Any further {ion back on its feet. It is a matter of comments on this matter will be more who controls this sort of administrative appropriately dealt with during the responsibility. The Government hopes Committee stage. that administrators do not have to be The honourable member for Carrum appointed but, if they do, it is neces­ also asked why the 7 per cent figure sary that a total break take place concerning the liquidator was not in­ between the new administrator and the corporated in the Bill. The reason is old board that originally was respons­ that the decision was made after ible for the difficulties of the organiza­ tion. consultation with various organiza­ tions and they decided that instead of Mr Hann-What about the interests having this spelt out in the Bill, it of the society? should be dealt with by regulation. 4060 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY That is a better way of doing it be­ Clause 3 (Division) cause it gives the government of the day more flexibility to meet changing Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ circumstances. I move: Clause 3, page 2, line 36, after "Registrar" The Government has a great deal of insert "&c.". respect for the co-operative societies Clause 3, page 2, line 40, omit "253" and movement. I join with the honourable insert "226". member for Rodney and express my rejection of the point of view put Many of the amendments that I shall forward by the honourable member for move are consequential amendments. Carrum that I am taking the Socialist I have sought the co-operation of the plank and supporting a Socialist com­ other two parties and I have circulated ponent. That is not the case. I recog­ the amendments in advance to save nize the value of partnerships and the the time of the Committee. If leave is value of people coming together granted, when each clause is called, I through self-help programmes to assist shall simply say, "I so move". their own living standards. That recog­ The amendments were agreed to, nition should not be taken, by any and the clause, as amended, was stretch of the imagination, to mean my adopted, as was clause 4. acceptance of Socialism as interpreted by the honourable member for Carrum. Clause 5 (Interpretation) There is a wide difference between Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ the ideal of the Labor Party and the I move: Government of co-operation and part­ Clause 5, line 33, omit "Credit" and insert nership. I notice the honourable mem­ "Co-operative" . ber for Carrum is wearing the Labor The amendment was agreed to. Party's new badge. Honourable mem­ bers should note that the badge repre­ Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-Clause 5 sents a sleight of hand because if one deals with definition and it is sur­ looks at the top of the badge, one will prisin,g that, in a major rewrite of the note that there is a white flag, which Bill, the definition of credit society is is the surrender sign. Under that flag one that is formed pursuant to the is the Australian flag and that badge provisions of Part 11, Division 6, but indicates the surrender of Australia. does not include an association or Superimposed on the surrender flag credit society or a federation of credit is the "ALP" sign. The Socialist left societies. There is no definition of is using the badge to signify the sur­ credit society. I shall move an amend­ render of Australia back to the Labor ment to insert a proper definition of Party. That is the form of Socialism credit society. that the honourable member for Car­ I remind the Minister of Housing that rum was referring to. the Committee is basing its discussion The honourable member for Rodney on a small group of weavers who and I totally reject that reference. The estabHshed a co-operative store in the honourable member and I believe in the early nineteenth century in order to co-ope'ration and partnership of self­ obtain commodities and services at a help programmes. A long period of time fair and reasonable price to fight the has been involved in the compilation of exploitation that was rampant in the the Bill. I regret that there are quite nineteenth century, as it is in the a few amendments, but most of those are consequential and, with co-opera­ twentieth century. That was the small tion between the parties, the Bill will and humble beginning of the British pass quickly. Labor Party and of the Australian Labor Party. It was the beginnihg of The motion was agreed to. Socialism. One should also examine The Bill was read a second time and the struggles of the Tolpuddle martyrs committed. and the struggles of one wing of the Clauses 1 and 2 were agreed to. Methodist Church that became involved Mr Kennett 2 December 1981 ] Co-operation Bill 4061 in those struggles to establish the prin­ Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ ciple of Chartism. There were long I could think of nothing more satis­ struggles throughout the nineteenth factory than entering into a total part­ century to establish an effective Social­ nership with the honourable member ist government, which became the for Carrum. However, I am hesitant British Labor Party in the twentieth about accepting the amendment, be­ century and the Australian Labor Party cause if the Committee inserts the in the early years of the twentieth definition of credit society, it would century. It was a struggle against ex­ have to define each of the credit ploitation. societies and there would be some difficulty in that. I also doubt whether It is useless talking about co-opera­ it is right to insert philosophical state­ tion and partnership, as the Minister ments into the proposed legislation. does, when one notes the Holmes a' Courts and the Murdochs of this world, The Government rejects the amend­ who operate in the Australia of the ment but not out of hand. I will give twentieth century. I do not see any the honourable member for Carrum an offer of partnership and co-operation undertaking that I will have clause 5 with the present owners of the Herald reviewed before the Bill goes to another and Weekly Times Ltd. place with a view·· to perhaps having his amendment incorporated in that The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ place. . Order! I find the comments of the honourable member for Carrum in­ Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-I accept the teresting, but in no way do they relate offer of the Minister of Housing. I will to the amendment. not seek a division on the amendment as I intended to because the honourable Mr CATHIE-My amendment, if gentleman has offered to examine the adopted, would bring people together definition "credit society" contained in in a partnership and in a co-operation, my amendment to see if it can be in­ which the Minister has referred to. corporated in the legislation. Credit societies need a common bond. It is to be hoped that, in view of the I advise the honourable gentleman Minister's approach and his remarks that the Victorian Credit Co-operative on the importance of co-operation and Association Ltd requested an expan­ partnership, the Minister would realize sion of the definition of "credit society" that a definition of credit society is as it appears in the Bill. The words needed. proposed by that association are basic­ ally the same as the words I suggest. Indeed, I notice in the amendment I also indicate that it is the view of the circulated in the Minister's name that Law Institute of Victoria that an Act of there is an amendment to clause 16, this sort ought to define credit unions which does not define credit society and if we are dealing with a body but attempts to define the objectives of which has a history and philosophy­ credit societies. The form of words I do not want to go through that exer­ used there is not that different to what cise-we ought to put into the defini­ I shall move. tions of this Act a precise definition of Therefore, in that genuine spirit of what makes credit unions in Australia co-operative enterprise and partnership, and anywhere else in the world a defin­ I move: itive and particular form of partner­ ship and co-operative. Clause 5, page 4, lines 20-23, omit the words and expressions on these lines and insert- The amendment was negatived, and , "Credit society" means a democratically the clause was agreed to, as were control1ed co-operative association of persons clauses 6 to 15. bound together with a common bond for the better pursuit of the economic welfare of its Clause 16 (Objects of credit members." , societies) Session 1981-139 4062 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY Mr KENNE.TI (Minister of Housing)­ Mr CATHIE-I suppose in one sense move: it is cavat emptor-let the buyer be­ Clause 16, page 12, lines 2-3, omit the words ware. Even so, pressures are put upon and expressions on these lines and insert- the individual and in many cases he U(d) to promote co-operative enterprise and finds it very difficult to avoid entering to provide programmes 9r services to ilts mem­ into commitments. That is why the Op­ bers 'as prescribed by the rules for assisting its position would have preferred a lengthy members to meet their financial or social needs .... debate on the credit Bills last night. My party and the credit unions see The amendment was agreed to. budget advjce as part of the functions Mr CAT HIE (Carrum)-I move: of credit unions. Clause 16, page 12, insert the following paragraph to follow paragraph (d}:- I should like the Minister to talk to Mr Graham Benson of the Latrobe U( ) to provide educational and counsell- Valley Credit Co-operative. In many ing programmes especially with respect to family finance management, retirement and ways no one knows more about the such other consumer education as the directors practice and philosophy of credit unions consider will improve the living standard of its in this country than does Graham Ben­ members.". son. If the Minister of Housing speaks I must determine the effects of the with him, I am sure that he will be Ministers amendment. It appears that impressed that one of the most im­ clause 16 (d) is now omitted and re­ portant roles of credit unions is to pro­ placed by a new paragraph (d). This vide educational and counselling pro­ clause follows the existing objects as grammes, particularly to assist in the they are set out in Part 11 Division 6- Credit Societies. My amendment goes day-to-day financial management of to the nature of credit unions and problems that families face of declin­ credit societies in our country. ing living standards, increasing mort­ gage commitments and higher interest In all the reading I have done about rates. credit societies, emphasis has always been placed upon assisting their clients, An Honourable Member-Thanks to many of whom are in the low income the Liberal Government! bracket-the ordinary people in the community-to be able to budget for Mr CATHIE-Thanks indeed to the all of the commitments they have Liberal Government. A greater pro­ entered into, whether it be for a home, portion of Australia's population a boat, an addition to their home or today are elderly. That situation will whatever. on a continuing basis. That prevail even more in the forseeable is a particularly important role. future. More and more people in the community need to prepare for their In many cases credit unions have retirement and will rely upon the coun­ established budget accounts which selling services that local credit unions assist the individual members of the provide. As I said, with all the pres­ sOciety to meet their debts in a regu­ sures that exist today there is an urg­ lar, organized, responsible and pro­ ent need for a programme of consumer per manner. That is important at a time education. Credit unions and the Asso­ when easy money, if you like, is avail­ ciation of Credit Unions are filling that able. Some people describe it as "funny need. If we attempt to define the ob­ money". I refer to Bankcard and credit cards. It is very easy for people to jectives, as we are here, we are say­ over commit themselves, given the high ing what credit unions can do. We pressure advertisements one sees on should not exclude the idea of an edu­ television every day and the high pres­ cational role in the community. sure ~alesman-- I add that, although my amendment An Honourable Member-Brainwash­ does not cover that aspect the Min­ ing. ister may like to deal with it separately. 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4063

I note that the objects included in Divi­ the provIsIon of programmes or ser­ sion 6 do not include consumer educa­ vices to their members and to assist tion. I should have thought that the those members to meet their financial prime object of a credit union would and social needs. Members of the Op­ be to assist its members. position support the Minister's amend­ ment but we now ask that he support Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ our amendment which places the em­ I thank the honourable member for phasis on something entirely different Carrum for his contribution. The and more positive. amendment moved by the honourable member and the ·amendment to be Mr B. J. Evans-The Minister's moved by me are similar, I suggest, amendment does not say that the pro­ because we both have been advised grammes cannot be educational. by the same people-the association. Although the amendments are worded Mr CATHIE-No, but it· does not differently we are talking about assist­ mention education. The educational ance to members in terms of their role of societies is one of their most financial and social needs and also of important roles in the community. I providing programmes and deciding the would like some recognition of that fact areas in which the association would written into the Bill. I will push on like to assist. with the amendment, and I am sur­ prised at the attitude of the Government I draw the attention of the honour­ and the National Party which are not able member for Carrum to clause 16 prepared to consider this amendment (c) which states: in a positive way. To encourage habits of thrift among its Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing) members; and -If I can presume to speak to some de­ The only other comment I have about gree on behalf of the National Party and the amendment moved by the honour­ the Government on this matter, because able member for Carrum-I guess it is we were speaking on it earlier, I would subject to interpretation-is that it in­ point out that the Government's amend­ cludes the words "improve the living ment is more flexible. It gives the co­ standard of its members". I do not operative and credit societies the oppor­ know whether that is grammatically tunity of doing whatever they see fit correct, but it is the same as trying on behalf of their members, given that to meet their financial and social needs. those members are a collection of people As the two amendments are very coming together for mutually beneficial similar I suggest that the Government reasons. The amendment by the Gov­ will adopt my amendment and reject ernment refers to 'meeting their financial the amendment moved by the honour­ and social needs and mentions the able member for Carrum, not because words "to provide programmes". The we disagree but because we think we amendment moved by the honourable have covered that point. If I gave a member for Carrum is more restrictive. guarantee that we would look at it The Government has tried to be as flex­ between here and another place it ible as possible, to allow the co-opera­ would only be to pacify the honourable tives to do whatever they see fit. member for Carrum. The Committee divided on Mr Cathie's Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-I hope the amendment (Mr A. T; Evans in the offer to examine the previous clause was chair) . not merely an offer to pacify but a genuine offer. Ayes 31 I do not believe what the Minister has Noes 45 moved has any relationship to what I have moved. He has moved that credit Majority against the unions should have as their objective amendment 14 4064 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY

AYES Committee stage when the Chair is Mr Cain Mr Remington concentrating on amendments, it is still Mr Cathie Mr Roper out of order for him to cross in front Mr Crabb Mr Rowe Mr Culpin Mr Sidiropoulos of the Chair without recognizing it. Mr Edmunds Mr Simmonds Mr KENNETI (M'inister of Housing)­ Mr Ernst Mr Simpson Mr Fogarty Mr Stirling I move: Mr Fordham Mrs Toner Clause 19, page 15, line 22, omit "society" Mr Gavin Mr Trezise and insert "board". Mr Ginifer Or Vaughan Clause 19, page 15, line 28, omit "extimated" Mr Hockley Mr Walsh and insert "estimated". Mr Jolly Mr Wilkes Mr King Mr Wilton . Clause 19, pa8e 16, lines 12-13, omit "under Mr Kirkwood Tellers: paragraph (a) (ix) ". Mr Mathews Miss Callister Clause 19, page 16, line 14, after "interest" Mr Miller Or Coghfll insert .. under paragraph (a) (ix)" . NOES Clause 19, page 17, line 15, omit "total amount advanced" and insert "amount out­ Mr Austin Mr McInnes standing at any time on advances". Mr Balfour Mr McKellar Mr Birrell Mr Mackinnon The amendments were agreed to. Mr Borthwick Mr Maclellan Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-Clause 19 Mr Brown Mrs Patrick Mr Burgin Mr Ramsay (6) (c) states, inter alia: Mrs Chambers Mr Reynolds the credit society has done all such things Mr Coleman Mr Richardson as it considers necessary to be done to ensure Mr Collins Mr Ross-Edwards that, if default is made in repayment, the Mr Cox Mrs Sibree credit society may forthwith institute, and may Mr Crellin Mr Skeggs thereafter prosecute, proceedings for the Mr Ounstan Mr Smith recovery of the debt- Mr Ebery (South Barwon) Mr Evans Mr Smith That wording seems to be very subjec­ (Gippsland East) (Warmambool) tive--that it, the credit society has aone Mr Hann Mr Templeton all such things as "it" considers neces­ Mr Hayes Mr Thompson s'ary to be done. It is not what the Mr Jasper Mr Weideman society considers necessary. I think Mr Jona Mr Whiting Mr Kennett Mr WiIliams that something more positive is needed. Mr Lacy Mr Wood I do not want the clause drafted in Mr Lieberman such a way that the only requirement Mr McCance Tellers: is what action the society itself con­ Mr McClure Mr McArthur Mr McGrath Mr Tanner siders should have been taken to cover itself when faced with debt. The clause, as amended, was agreed I would prefer something like, "all to, as was clause 17. things that may be necessary". There Clause 18 (Regulations on loans) may be other things necessary to be Mr KENNETI (Minister of Housing)­ done which the particular credit union I move: has not thought of, and I find the Clause 18, line 23, after "or" insert "a wording far too subjective. It would continuing" . be much better if the wording was Clause 18, page 13, line 38, omit "notice". more positive, and I hope the Minister Clause 18, page 14, line 1, omit "(4)" and will examine that aspect before the insert .. ( 5) ". Bill goes to another place. Clause 18, 'page 14, line 14, omit "(4)" and insert "(5) ". Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ Clause 18, page 14, line 16, omit "(2)" and I agree to that. insert "(3)". The clause, as amended, was agreed The amendments were agreed to and to, 'as was clause 20. the clause, as amended, was adopted. Clause 21 (Guarantee fund) Clause 19 (Loans, etc., to members) Mr KENNETI (Minister of Housing)­ Tllle CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ I move: Order! I remind the honourable mem­ Clause 21, page 18, line 11, after "persons" ber for Brunswick that even in the insert "or bodies corporate or unincorporate" 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4065

The amendment was agreed to. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-This clause as were clauses 25 to 29. establishes the guarantee fund. It sets up an advisory committee that deter­ Clause 30 (Credit society may be­ mines who are the members of that come subject to direction by Advisory committee, and deals with such things CommiUee) as auditors' r~ports and annual reports. Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-This is It is appropriate at this stage to raise where a credit society may become once again the point that I canvassed subject to direction by the advisory during the second-reading debate. It is committee, and some of those are necessary in setting up the mechanisms quite specific and others are not. Obvi­ in this Bill that the advisory committee ously if a credit society fails to comply should have access to appropriate staff with the law, for example, the provi­ in order to undertake the necessary sions for liquidity and bad d~bts, they continuing moni-toring of the economic are certainly re:asonable grounds. health of credit unions, and monitoring Equally, if over a period it is shown for examples of mismanagement, and that a credit society is trading unprofit­ perhaps even misappropriating because, ably, tha't is also a specific ground. regrettably, as was discovered in Chel­ sea, they do occur. Clause 30 (c) is very broad indeed. It states: 1 wonder if the Minister will indicate the advisory committee is of the opinion tha t whether he is prepared to say, in imple­ the affairs of a credit society are being con­ menting this legislation, that the ad­ ducted in an imp rover or financially unsound, ditional five inspectorial staff that have manner; been approved by the Public Service It is not clear what is meant by those Board wi1l be advertised for, and will words. It is a specific matter that if be added to the registrar's office so a credit union is trading a-t a deficit, that this Act can be properly imple­ trading unprofitably, it has not carried mented. out the law of this State. It is not a very specific matter if, in the opinion Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing) of somebody, 'trading is being con­ -I am conscious of the entire operation ducted in an improper and unsound of the Ministry, particularly in the manner. I have no idea what the Min­ finance area, and that adequate staff ister and the Government have in mind is needed to do the job properly. If in putting this requirement in the Bill, the .lobs have not been approved al­ and there is a need to have some ready internally, having been approved understanding of what is meant in this by the Public Service Board 1 will clause. pursue the matter, because I would like the vacancies to be filled as soon If one looks ahead a little to clause as possible. 33, for example, there is the whole question of amalgamations. Later on, The clause, as amended. was agreed in clause 36, there is the setting up to, as were cJauses 22 and 23. of an appeals tribunal, so presumably, Clause 24 (Making of levies) if a particular credit union was being proceeded against under clause 30(c) Mr KENNETT (M'inister of Housing)­ because it was being conducted in an J move: improper manner, it could appeal Clause 24, page 22, omit sub-clause (5) and against that decision to the body that insert- is set up under clauses 32 to 36. "(5) Notwithstanding any provision of this Act or any other law to the contrary, a levy As c1ause 30 reads, there has to under sub-section (1) shall, or. payment into be a breach or non-compliance with the fund, become the property of the advisory the Act, and later on there are powers committee absolutely and shall be freed and to direct in clause 78 which relates to discharged from any trusts, obligations, interests or charges to which it may have been the transfer of engagements by direc­ subject in the hands of a credit society tion of the registrar. As 1 understand immediately prior to its payment into the fund.". it, the other society would have to 4066 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY

agree to take in the body that is provide a framework of powers. He sug­ being directed to amalgamate. It would gests there is nothing very different be­ have to be done by agreement. Never­ tween the provisions of 30 ( 1) (c) and theless, this power in clause 30 is the provisions that relate to building widely drafted, and the Committee is societies, but he has said nothing about entitled to some explanation of what how the decision is to be made. He has it means and how it will be used. said nothing about the way in which it Mr KENNE.TT (Minister of Housing)~ is to be implemented or what the test The whole point 'Of this clause is wide, is for deciding whether a credit society and it is not dissimUar to the powers is being conducted in an improper or that the registrar has, as has the ad­ .financially unsound manner. By what visory committee, under the building objective criteria will it be possible to society legislation as such. determine those matters? As the honourable member for Car­ I am even more frightened by the view rum indicated earlier, the strength of that the Minister seems to think this will the building society movement and the be a wonderful weapon. Just imagine credit unions as such would mean that the Minister going to Geelong and say­ if a credit union or a co-operative got ing to the smaller credit unions there, into difficulty, one could expect, justi­ "You are going to amalgamate. I do not fiably, that the Government would give want you to continue operating as you consideration to preventing that society have in the past. I now have a power collapsing to the detriment not only in the Act that will allow me to exert of its own members, but also all the pressure possible to force you the effect it may have on other to amalgamate." An amalgamation may societies throughout the community. not be desired by the credit union. It Therefore, what the Government is try­ may not be desired by the board of the ing to do is what has been done success­ credit union, the membership of the ful1y with building societies; that is, credit union or the annual meeting of where there is a society that is in diffi­ the credit union, but the Minister has culties, the registrar can virtual1y direct said that he will give himself these wide that the society, in the interests of its powers and that they will help him to members, should amalgamate. He pursue amalgamations in the industry. directs a transfer. The registrar finds I am not satisfied, and the Opposition another society that is prepared to take is certainly not satisfied, with that view. on the functions of the first society. Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ Obviously, one cannot force them to Those remarks were such a misuse of amalgamate, but the Government has what has been said and what is in the found these provisions have been Bill that they are almost irresponsible. operating successfully with building I regret that the honourable member societies, particularly when it is under­ for Carrum has made that assessment. stood that the standing of the whole concept of the co-operative movement The Government is not in the busi­ is at stake. The Government is attempt­ ness of trying to amalgamate credit ing to provide a framework of legisla­ societies. The provision is not in the tion and powers that will allow steps to Bill for that purpose. It is there to be taken in advance to prevent a society protect the members of a society if, for from having a default. If there are ad­ one reason or another, the management ministrative problems or financial diffi­ of the society becomes unsound finan­ culties, an amalgamation between two Cially or if the business affairs of the societies can be brought about to society are conducted improperly. The maintain the strength of the whole Government wants to protect members credit movement throughout Victoria. of the community, who deserve protec­ Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-I am not sure tion. that that explanation satisfies me. The The officers of the registrar have done Minister has again talked in vague a marvellous job in the past in protect­ terms about having an Act that will ing the community in this way. They 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4067 are able to assess the finances and man­ proposed by the clause is quite major, agement of societies and their perform­ yet we have been given no expla,?ati

Clause 60 (Distribution of surplus, matter checked to make sure that that etc.) is so before the Bill goes to the other Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ place. I move: The clause, as amended, was agreed Clause 60, page 46, line 32, after "Bank" to, as were clauses 61 to 66. insert "of Australia". Clause 67 (Payments on death of Clause 60. page 47, line 5, after "be" insert "as prescribed". member &c.) Clause 60, page 47, lines 6-21, omit the words Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-I move: and expressions on these lines. Clause 67, line 39, after "the society may" Clause 60, page 47, line 22, omit "(11)" and insert "apply the moneys for or towards the insert "(10) ". payment of the funeral hospital and medical expenses of the deceased member or". Clause 50, page 47, lines 31-33, omit the words and expressions on these lines. The intention of the clause is to remove The amendments were agreed to. any possibility of hardship to a sur­ viving widow or children on the death Mr CATHIE (Carrum)-Clause 60 of one partner to a joint account. One deals with the provision for doubtful would not want to require the granting debts. The Opposition accepts the of probate before the widow, the chil­ necessity for proper allowance for dren or the trus tee acting on behal f doubtful debts and for the contingency of children was able to cover such of loss. and there needs to be a reason­ necessary debts as funeral, hospital and able accounting provision for that. medical expenses. I am attempting, by Under the renumbered sub-clause (101 this amendment, to improve the in­ there appear to be two areas where it tention and meaning of the clause. does not apply. Paragraph (b) of the renumbered sub-clause (10) provides. Mr KEN NETT (Minister of Housing)­ where all payments required to meet contrac­ I appreciate what the honourable mem­ tual obligations falling due within the period ber is attempting to do. of twleve months last preceding have been paid. That would appear to cover the case Mr Cathie-I think it is covered in where a member has missed, say, four the State Bank Act. payments, owing to illness or tem­ Mr KEN NETT-No, it is not covered porary unemployment. and has followed in the State Bank Act. In the time up with payments in twelve consecu­ that these societies have been operat­ tive months. That would mean that, ing. there has been only one applica­ over that period of twelve months, he tion for the expenditure of money for was able to restore his financial credi­ this type of reason. bility with the credit union, even The Government cannot accept the though technically he may still be in amendment because an investigation of arrears because he had not picked up the situation with the Commonwealth the month when his repayments fell Bank, the State BanJ< and most of the behind, due to some temporary mis­ banks has been conducted and we can­ adventure. not find any precedent for it. Equally, I should expect that such As an extreme case, if this were a person would be able to renegotiate accepted, it would be possible for a his commitments, and that is frequently person to organize a grandiose funeral done, or he may be able to consolidate when there may be creditors outside his debts by means of a budget the family awaiting settlement and the account. As I understand it, that pro­ actions of some family member could cedure of renegotiating and establishing act adversely in relation to other credi­ a budget account is not prohibited by tors who may be awaiting settlement. the Bill, but I would like an assurance that the renumbered sub-clause (10) I have had this matter checked to the best of my ability because I (b) covers that case. thought the intent of it was basically Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ sound. However, it has been difficult It is my understanding that such a case to get any lead from any other insti­ would be covered, but I will have t.he tution that operates in that way. 2 December 1981] Co-operation Bill 4069 The amendment was negatived, and Clause 100 was verbally amended, the clause was agreed to, as were and, as amended, was adopted, as clauses 68 and 69. were clauses 101 and 102. Clause 70 (Certain contracts &c. to Clause 103 was verbally amended, be approved by registrar) and, as amended, was adopted, as Mr KEN NETT (Minister of Housing)­ were clauses 104 to 122. I move: Clause 123 was verbally amended, Clause 70, page 50, line 6, after "year" insert and, as amended, was adopted, as "immediately preceding the financial year". were clauses 124 to 146. The amendment was agreed to, and the clause, as amended, was adopted, Clause 147 (Returns) as were clauses 71 to 73. Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ Clause 74 was verbally amended, I move: and. as amended, was adopted. Clause 147, line 4, omit "three months" and Clause 75 (Investment of surplus insert "the following periods". funds) Clause 147, line 16, after "by" insert "section 130(8) or". Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ I move: The amendments were agreed to, and Clause 75, line 22, after "society," insert the clause, as amended, wa's adopted, "with". as were clauses 148 to 162. Clause 75, line 27, omit "does not exceed the amount" and insert "is less than any Clause 163 (Appointment of admin­ amount". istrator) The amendments were agreed to, and Mr B. J. EV ANS (Gippsland East)­ the clause, as amended, was adopted, The clause deals with the situation of as were clauses 76 to 79. appointing an admtinistrator of a co­ Clause 80 (Name and address) operative society and with those aspects that my colleague, the honourable Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ member for Rodney, raised in the I move: second-reading debate. I again refer to Clause 80, page 57, line 8, after "name" the Chernov report of the investiga­ insert "or the use of some other name or description" . tions into these aspects and draw the 'attention of honourable members to The amendment was agreed to, and page 354 of volume 1 in which it is the clause, as amended, was adopted, stated: as were clauses 81 to 85. One of the issues that arises out of the Clause 86 was verbally amended, society's second economic collapse is whether and, as amended, was adopted, as was there are any and if so what deficiencies in the Co·operation Act 1958 which could be said to clause 87. have contributed materially to the happening Clause 88 (Certain notices &c. not of that event. I now turn to consider this matter. to be published) The underlying reason for the society's down­ fall in June, 1975 was that there were no Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ effective means provided by the Scheme of I move: Arrangement or by the legislation to ensure that the interests of the members of the society Clause 88, page 64, line 6,' omit "Securities were protected against an abuse of power by Industry Act 1975" and insert "Securities the Administrator. Industry (Victoria) Code". Clause 88, page 64, line 19, omit "Securities This is the provision in the Bill where Industry Act 1975" and insert "Securities some attempt should have been made Industry (Victoria) Code". to meet this situation. It appe·ars that Clause 88, page 64, line 24, omit "Securities the interests of all the people involved, Industry Act 1975" and insert "Securities creditors and the like, are looked after Industry (Victoria) Code". except the interests of members of the The amendments were agreed to, and society who have no watchdog in the .the clause, as amended, was adopted, event of the appointment of an admin­ as were clauses 89 ,to 99. istrator. 4070 Co-operation Bill [ASSEMBLY

The clause indicates that upon the (b) ensure that directors of the society have been elected in accordance with the rules appointment of an administrator of the of the society, at a meeting convened by society, the director of the society the administrator in accordance with ceases to hold office, and, consequently, those rules; that severs any communication between or the actual members of the society and (c) appoint directors of the society. the administration of the society. I It is only a short-term remedy to would hope that the Minister of Hous­ correct what is perhaps a risky situa­ ing will consider this problem carefully tion for members. Members do have a between now and when the Bill reaches watchdog during that period in the another place. The National Party has form of the registrar. How well the not proposed an amendment, but registrar performs his duties will deter­ perhaps it should. mine how good a watchdog the mem­ bers have. I shall certainly take up the Several alternatives can be put remarks of the honourable member for forward, as mentioned in the Chernov Gippsland East and review the clause 'report, where there should be some pro­ before it goes to another place. vision that members of the society should be able to elect a new board of Mr B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East)­ directors, which may even be the exist­ I appreciate the comments of the Min­ ing board of directors, within two ister of Housing and add that I cannot months of the appointment of the perceive that sub-clause (8) in any way administra tor. meets the situation because it is con­ cerned with the winding up of an Perhaps the term "directors" is one administration and to ensure that there that should be dropped in that situa­ is continuity after the administrator tion; perhaps they need simply to be has done his job and got the business shareholders' representatives but at back on its feet. least they will be some body of people I emphasize that Mr Chernov, after looking after the interests of share­ a lengthy inquiry, has come down holders and having some direct contact firmly on the need for a watchdog for with the administrator. It would prob­ shareholders, and I rely on no better ably be preferable for them to be authority. That opinion was given after previous directors of the company be­ an extensive and expensive inquiry and cause they would know just what has the Government is short-sighted if it occurred in the administration over ignores that recommendation. some time. The clause was agreed to, as were In view of the very lengthy and com­ clauses 64 to 167. plex report prepared by Mr Chernov, Clause 168 was verbally amended, it is strange that no recognition of the and, as amended, was adopted, as work has been given. It appears to have were clauses 169 to 206. been a waste of time when no provision is made in the legislative measure to Clause 207 was verbally amended, meet those recommendations. and, as amended, was· adopted, as were clauses 208 to 231. Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ Clause 232 was verbally amended, I take the point of view of the hon­ and, as amended, was adopted, as ourable member for Gippsland East. were clauses 233 to 240. However, the whole point of appointing an administrator is to try to correct a Clause 241 (Name) situation that has developed and per­ Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housing)­ haps puts at risk the interests of mem­ I move: bers. Sub-clause (8) states: Clause 241, line 41, after "registrar" insert "or some other name or description approved Before revoking the appointment of an by the registrar". administrator of a society the registrar shall, except in the case of a revocation under section The amendment was agreed to, and 166 (2)- the clause, as amended, was adopted, (a) appoint another administrator; as were the remaining clauses. 2 December 1981] Motor Car (Mass and Dimension Limits) Bill 4071

Schedule One was agreed to. do not meet the new standards which Schedule Two was verbally amended, will apply on the proclamation of this and, as amended, was 'adopted, as was measure but also they do not meet the the remaining schedule. s.tandards that apply now. The Bill was reported to the House How this came about is a matter with amendments, and passed through for conjecture but) I have been informed its remaining stages. by the manufacturers, the bus oper­ ators and Government authorities that APPROPRIATION MESSAGE not enough attention was paid to the regulations at the time these vehicles The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ were being constructed and as a con­ man) announced the presentation of a sequence their weight on the rear axle message from His Excellency the Gov­ is somewhat higher than is permitted er~or recommending that an appropri­ under the existing law. If the law was atIOn be made from the Consolidated to be applied to those vehicles they Fund for the purposes of the Building would have to be scrapped or they Industry Long Service Leave (Amend­ would need to have another axle added ment) Bill. at considerable expense. I did consider moving an amendment MOTOR CAR (MASS AND to try to accommodate that position, DIMENSION LIMITS) (AMENDMENT) to provide that special permi ts could BILL be issued to allow those vehicles to The debate (adjourned from Novem­ operate within Victoria for the useful ber 17) on the motion of Mr Maclellan life of the vehicle. I am unable to say (Minister of Transport) for the second what the useful life would be but I reading of this Bill was resumed. guess that it would be about ten years. Mr CRABB (Knox)-This is a small However, it proved rather complex machinery Bill to do two things. Firstly, and difficult to frame an appropriate it increases by 20 per cent certain amendment, and I suggest to the Min­ registration fees in line with increases ister of Transport that it might be wise which have already been passed by the for him to make clear the intention of House in general registration fees. I the Government with respect to these record the objection of the Opposition vehicles. I ask that that intention be to the increase in registration fees by expressed in terms of an undertaking 20 per cent, but it is not the intention that such permits as are provided for of the Opposition to delay the Bill these vehicles now will continue to be because the House has already provided for them so long as those approved a 20 per cent increase in vehicles continue to be used and that almost all registration fees and the the length of time will be entirely at increases herein contained merely the discretion of the Government. bring the specific fees into line with Perhaps that is a more sensible way the other registration fees. of getting around this specific prob­ The second provision contained in lem. Although it is minor within the the Bill provides a capacity for the total ambit of the Bill, it certainly is Government to proclaim the Motor a big problem for the bus operators (Mass and Dimension Limits) Act in who wish to continue to operate these sections. The Opposition wishes the vehicles which are outside the regula­ Bill a speedy passage in that regard tions. as there are certainly considerable I shall be interested to hear the com­ benefits to be gained by the road ments of the Minister on that aspect, transport industry in achieving uniform but apart from that matter, the Opposi­ standards throughout Australia. tion wishes the regulatory part of the However, there is one matter that is Bill a speedy passage. of some concern to me and it relates Mr JASPER (Murray Valley)-The to vehicles owned by bus companies in National Party supports the passage of Victoria. About 70 vehicles not only this measure and, in indicating that 4072 Motor Car (Mass and Dimension Limits) Bill [ASSEMBLY

support, I have some general comments and 5 are consequential on the Trans­ to make. Most honourable members will port (Fees) Bill that was passed be .aware that the weight limits under through Parliament earlier this session whIch trucks have been operating for and was debated at length. It provided a considerable time in Victoria are a 20 per cent increase in registration contained in section 33 of the Motor ·charges. The National Party supported Car Act. Since 1976, under direction, the passage of that Bill on the basis the Country Roads Board has issued that additional funds that would be permits so that operators may gain gained by the Motor Registration ad~itional weight-carrying capacities to Branch would be transferred through brmg them more into line with the the Country Roads Board to munici­ other States of Australia. palities to be spent on roads, particu­ !'lew legislation was introduced early larly in country Victoria. thIs year and assent was given to the The National Party supports the Motor Car (Mass and Dimension other clauses of the Bill that relate to Limits) Act on 19 May, 1981. The the 20 per cent increase in fees gener­ purpose of the principal Act was to ally. National Party members know eliminate the need for a permit system. that the new Motor Car (Mass and There existed a real anomaly so far as Dimensions Limits) Bill that was de­ the weight-carrying capacity of trucks bated earlier this year and received and the weights and dimensions under Royal assent on 19 May 1981 has been which they operated under section 33 accepted by industry and it will have of the Motor Car Act was concerned the ability of enabling trucks to oper­ with the requirement to obtain ~ ate using increased weights. Those pe~m!t to carry bigger weights. The that will be operating on the road after prmclpal Act brought the provisions . 1 July 1985 and trucks being registered into line mainly with Queensland, for the first time, will obviously have N e.w South Wales and Tasmania in to comply with the new Motor Car an endeavour to gain uniformity in (Mass and Dimensions Limits) Act, the carrying capacity and the weights No. 9548. The National Party supports and dimensions of trucks operating the Bill. within Victoria. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ The principal Act was designed to port) -The matter raised by the hon­ eliminate the need for operators to ourable member for Knox is a difficult ob~ain a permit to carry increased industrial matter involving 70 non­ weIghts, and also to bring Victoria into conforming buses that may need ex­ line with what was normally accepted pensive modifications made to them, in the other States. The problem was or else they will be allowed to oper­ that the principal Act could not be ate only by permit. It is the' Govern­ proclaimed because of difficulties with ment's intention to make whatever section 29 of the Motor Car (Mass and arrangements may be necessary to Dimension Limits) Act. Clause 4 cor­ allow those buses to achieve reasonable rects that anomaly and will allow working lives. Some discretion must be trucks which are operating under the exercised and that discretion will in­ old system to continue to do so until clude the fact that the Government 1 July, 1985. Some trucks, perhaps does not want people to trade in those new vehicles, will be operating under buses in an attempt to expand the oper­ the new Act, and those which are ations beyond current areas. It may be currently operating on the roads will necessary to have all sorts of restric­ be able to continue under the old tions on where those vehicles can be section 33 of the Motor Car Act until used and. the manner in whicl} they I Jllly, 1985. can be used. The Government cannot assist them once they pass the border Th.e National Party supports clause 4 into another State. They are primarily which will enable the Act which ha~ used for charter work and will have to received Royal assent to be proclaimed run the risks if they go into other and come into operation. Clauses 2, 3 States. Mr Jasper 2 December 1981] Motor Car (Mass and Dimension Limits) -Bill 4073

Victoria cannot expect other States the first State to accept limits, although to allow this State to become the haven I think it was almost the last State to for non-conforming vehicles. It should legislate in this regard. not be treated as a haven for non­ conforming vehicles, as it would pro­ I hope in the future a higher priority duce difficulties in other areas. I thank will be given for the drafting of this honourable members for the support legislation, as it is complicated and diffi­ of the Bill and for allowing the separ­ cult, rather than allowing the industry ate proclamation of these pieces of to rely on a permit granting board to legislation. I give a general indication apply a national standard over several that the Government will make what­ years, whilst the Government tries to ever arrangements it can, either by per­ work out how to legislate in order to mit or by moratorium to allow those enact that national code. This Bill buses to have reasonable working is a step in that direction. I regret that lives and not to impose a burden on last time the Governmen t did not per­ the particular bus company that owns ceive the problem, but passed certain the vehicles. pieces of legislation through Parlia­ ment in one session although it would If those buses were suitable for route not be possible to proclaim various operations in Geelong, Bendigo, Balla­ parts of it. That situation has led to this rat and Melbourne, that would be an Bill being necessary to cure the prob­ ideal solution. lem. Victoria will be able to cope better in the future than it has in the past. Unhappily, the buses are particu­ I hope the directions on this matter larly un sui table for the charter work will be positive for the industry. for which they have been developed. There may be opportunities where these The motion was agreed to. buses can move into areas of work where the fact that they are designed The Bill was read a second time, and for charter operations will not inhibit passed through its remaining stages. their being suitable for a local bus operation, in which case it may be pos­ FRIENDLY SOCIETIES sible for the buses to be used through­ (AMENDMENT) BILL out their working lives. The debate (adjourned from Septem­ The really pleasant aspect about the ber 22) on the motion of Mr Wood Bill is that it will remove the current (Minister of Public Works) for the difficulty of so many people who are second reading of this Bill was re­ carrying loads that are not ordinary in sumed. Victoria Or anywhere else. In other words, they have to go to the trouble Mr ROPER (Brunswick)-Although of getting permits from the Country this is a comparatively small Bill, it Roads Board, so that a paper work war addresses a major area of public ac­ is occurring, which is occasionally the tivity, namely, the friendly society subject of criticism from the courts. movement in Victoria. The movement, Vehicles carrying loads to Victoria from which developed in the nineteenth interstate, in theory, should obtain a century, has played an important and permit from the Country Roads Board. historic role in the development of a wide range of public services, particu­ When they are caught, they say that it larly in the health field. Friendly is discriminatory and they did not know societies throughout Victoria still carry that they had to obtain a permit. The out a variety of functions and, in some Government is anxious to cut down areas, are expanding the functions they the amount of permit applications and carry out. They operate health insur­ permit granting so that permits are used ance programmes, sickness and funeral for sensible purposes, that is, unusual benefit programmes, pharmacies in a loads that need special control or variety of suburbs and towns through­ consideration, not simply as a means of out the State, endowment insurance and covering up the fact that Victoria was life insurance policies. 4074 Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY

In general, they have done that work of contributions, and for ancillary well. Much of the work of some of the benefits such as physiotherapy and societies has been done on a volun­ dental benefits, as one sees advertised tary basis. Although the Opposition on television, the cost was 17'9 cents in supports the Bill, which deals primarily the $1, which certainly makes that a with the issue of insurance it bad investment for most families when is concerned about the current so much of every dollar they put in is functioning of friendly societies and being spent on ma'nagement costs. the role they are required to play in This does not apply only to friendly particular by the Federal Government. societies. Medibank Private, in its last Therefore, I move, as an amendment: annual -report, for the year 1980-81 , That all the words after "That" be omitted stated that of every $1 collected in con­ with the view of inserting in place thereof tributions, 15'5 per cent is being spent the words "this House refuses to read this on operating costs. Bill a second time until such time as this House is assured that all Friendly Society Fortunately, some later figures are Management costs are minimised to ensure that available from the Commonwealth contributors get full value for their contribu­ tions." Department of Health in the document entitled HOper~tions of the Registered Figures are available on friendly Medical Benefits and Hospital Benefits societies and their current functioning, Organizations." Table 2 of that docu­ although the figures presented to the ment shows that in the medical funds House are somewhat dated. Whereas in Victoria, 17 cents OUlt of every $1 is statistics used to be available on the spent on management expenses. That benefit associations such as Hospital varied from a low for the Geelong Benefits Association, Latrobe Valley and friendly SOciety of 9'4 cents in the $1 so on, those statistics no longer appear. to a high for three societies-Australian The last report presented to Parlia­ Natives Association, the Health Insur­ ment was the one hundred and second ance Commission, which is Medibank, Annual Report on Friendly Societies for and the Latrobe Valley, which had the year ended 30 June, 1979. At that amounts of over 20 cents in the $1. The stage-and the situation will have Latrobe Valley figure was 22'8 cents in changed since then-the friendly the $1. societies in Victoria had $115 million in One of the significant aspects is that assets and $33 minion in liabilities. They the cost of management of the Victorian were maior investors in the State, organizations is 2'1 cents in the $1 particularly organizations like the Aus­ higher than the Federal average. It is tralian Natives Association and Man­ costing more to administer friendly chester Unity~ societies and benefit associations in Vic­ However, of some concern, even toria than it is in other States. though this is not commented on in the The same applies when one looks at report, is the cost of management. I hospital funds; one finds that 8'9 cents quote from page 8 of the report, where in the $1 is being spent On administra­ it is stated: tion compared with a national average The coSlt of management in all societies for of 7-2 cents in the $1. That ranges from the year 1978-79 amounted to $18582747, being a low of 6'7 cents in the $1 for Aus­ 14'02 per cent of the total income, compared tralian Natives Association and 6'4 cents with 12'71 per cent in 1977-78, 13'10 in 1976-77 and 1278 per cent in 1975-76. in the $1 for Medibarflk---4:wo of the higher merlical insurance funds-to 13'8 That is a fairly substantial amount of cents in the $1 for the Hibernians and management costs associated with the 131·4 cents in the $1 for the Latrobe running of organizations such as friendly Valley, which also has a high rate of societies. The funds they operate vary medical insurance. enormously. Again, Victorians are seeing more of For this year the management cost their funds going into ,the 'management of hospital insurance was 10'7 centc; in of friendly societies and benefit associa­ the $1; for life assurance, 17'6 per CC:1t tions in Victoria than is happening in Mr Roper 2 December 1981] Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill 4075

other States. A substantial sum of just business, but it certainly adds money is involved. More than $2 billion significantly to the cost, as does the throughout Australia is collected in duplication of staff and equipment and health insurance contributions, and the large amount of advertising that is probably nearly $2'5 billion is collected undertaken. by benefit associations, the Health Com­ Over recent months honourable mem­ mission and friendly societies, of which bers have seen millions of dollars of Victorian families are paying more than contributors' money, not funds' 'money, $500 million a year. spent on advertising to try to attract The Opposition believes that the cost people to a parfticular fund as a result of administration is excessive and that of the Federal Government's changes. millions of dollar.s are being wasted on Advertising is done also in promoting excessive administration and manage­ various sporting and other activities. ment costs, particularly in the health Recently I visited a football match and insurance area. I have already mentioned was surprised to see the umpires run the figures. out onto the ground wearing ANA­ The system is wasting public money sponsored guernseys. through unnecessary competition and Mr Ross-Edwards-What is wrong duplication of services. Most of the with that? It is a very good 'idea. friendly societies, particularly those that have grown larger, have set up mini Mr ROPER-Two things are wrong bureaucracies that to an extent run the with that. Firstly, the contributors risk of acting for themselves rather than to that society are not paying to always acting in the interests of their sponsor a group of football umpires; contributors. They are no longer volun­ they are paying for health coverage. tary organizations where the local secre­ The second reason, which even the tary does a lot of the collecting virtually Leader of the National Party would on an honorary basis. They are now big understand, is that it is a bad invest­ businesses. When one looks at the ment. At the end' of the football match turnovers of some of the Victorian no-one thought the umpires were worth friendly societies cne sees that they have a bumper! People do not pay their increased significantly, and one can money into life assurance and hospital understand that. Last year Australian and medical funds to have it squan­ Natives Association collected $19 million dered in that way. The sum of 15 cents in medical fund contributions; Hospital in the $1 is too high for administrative Benefits Association collected $72 and management costs. million, and Manchester Unily collected Mr Birrell-People can always go $17 million. to another society. On the hospital side, again the figures Mr ROPER-They are all the same. were substantial; Australian Natives Association collected $24 million! Hos­ Mr Birrell-Not Geelong. pital Benefits Association collected $87 Mr ROPER-I have already men­ million and Manchester Unity collected tioned that the Geelong organization is $16 million. We have moved away from particularly good. The system also the time when the secretary of the local exists where employers and pharmacists Australian Natives Association branch obtain 5 cents in every $1 they collect cycled around the town or suburg col­ to transfer to a particular fund. In the lecting the subscriptions. It has now health field in particular this represents become a highly organized business and a form of taxation because under the there is a great deal of duplication. One current scheme up to 5 cents collection has only to visit regional shopping charge is passed on to the employer or centres in Melbourne and the major the chemist. This is an unjustifiable towns throughout Victoria to see office form of taxation. after office that has been set up by the The Government should re-examine various bodies from which to run their the way in which friendly societies and activities. It can be said that that is health insurance organizations operate, 4076 Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY

with a view to minimizing management people join the societies because of the costs to ensure that contributors obtain medical and hospital benefits they re­ full value for money. This does not ceive. This service is available from seem to be the case at the moment. societies such as the Australian Natives Association, the Hospital Benefits Asso­ Another matter of concern is the ciation Ltd and the many other organi­ ability of friendly societies to enter the zations mentioned by the previous field of life insurance. I was disturbed speaker. to receive a draft submission by the Life Insurance Federation of Australia I listened with considerable interest which was to be presented to the Gov­ to the contribution of the honourable ernment. I do not know the view of member for Brunswick. Although he the Government. I have a draft of the strayed a long way from the provisions material which was to be sent to the of the Bill, the honourable member was Premier. The draft submission stated able to relate his remarks to the amend­ that the Bil1 should not be allowed to ment and made great play of the costs proceed and that the various so-called incurred by societies as illustrated in benefits of friendly societies should be the reports. The honourable member re­ terminated. The draft submission sug­ ferred particul?rly to the high admini­ gests that friendly societies are obtain­ stration costs of the funds in Victoria ing special advantages in fields such as compared with other States and was insurance. I am not sure whether or critical of the policy of societies to not the Government has received the build up assets in many areas. submission and if so whether it has The National Party supports any adopted the views contained in it. society which wishes to improve the premises in which it operates, regard- The friendly societies should be per­ . less of whether they are located in a mitted to operate in the area which small town or in the metropolitan area. is _the subject of the Bill and should Our party supports any move to im­ ensure that their services are adequate. prove the working conditions of em­ The maximum sums of $6000 and ployees and to provide facilities and $25 000 payable by friendly societies in benefits for those people who wish to some areas was too low. The Labor take advantage of them. The develop­ ~arty-and no doubt the friendly socie­ ment of assets across the State pro­ tIes-looks forward to hearing the vides a strong, valuable back-up to faci­ response of the Government on the lities and assets in the years to come. views of the Life Insurance Federation of Australia. The organization believes Many friendly societies are construct­ that the Bill' should not proceed and ing new buildings; the National Party the various so-called special benefits to believes that the development .of these friendly societies should be removed. assets will in the long term increase in value and strengthen the financial struc­ ~r JASPER (Murray Valley)-The ture of the friendly societies. I shall NatIonal Party supports this minor Bill digress for a moment. The Society of which incre~ses the amount payable by St Vincent de Paul operates on a volun­ friendly societies under the Act on the tary basis and provides an excellent death. of a member or to a person at a service for Victorians. That society is specified age. Prior to 1976 the limit building many new premises in cities w~s $6000. This was subsequently and towns to provide improved services. raIsed to $25 000, and the Bill proposes It may be suggested that the society to increase the maximum to $50 000. ~hould not spend money on building up Honourable members would agree Its assets. However, those assets will that the limit should be lifted to $50 000 increase in value and will prove of con­ in view of the inflation that has taken siderable benefit to the society in the place. in the intervening period since future. These assets also make avail­ 1976. Victorian friendly societies pro­ able facilities so that members of vide a vital function and many people societies and others are able to enjoy take advantage of their services. Most better conditions and surroundings 2 Decem,ber 1981] Friendly Societies (Amendment) Bill 4077 than would be the case if the societies ment Statist and Actuary is responsible chose not to take the progressive step for checking the books, the annual of building up their assets. figures, reserves and conduct of friendly societies. I shall take this aspect up The honourable member for Brunswick with him. also cited the advertising by the friendly societies. That is a basic arrangement The honourable member for Bruns­ where the particular friendly society wick cited the advertising by friendly attempts to present itself to the general societies on football jumpers. Naturally, public and attract additional business it is paramount that friendly societies through increased mem'bership, which attract increased membership, which is provides additional financial benefits. It the lifeblood of friendly societies. Unless was harsh of the honourable 'member to they increase their membership, they take those friendly societies to task on cease to be viable and, therefore, they the amount of money that is spent on cease to exist. The Government com­ administration, especially in the light of mends the Bill to the House and the figures that have been presented. opposes the amendment. However, the Government should Most of the friendly societies have analyse those figures that are presented performed a wonderful job over the by the various friendly societies to en­ years, especially in those earlier years sure that the benefits derived from the when there were no hospital benefits funds provide the maximum return and as presently exist and when inadequate benefits for the membership. social welfare funds existed. It is to be The National Party supports the Bill hoped that those benefits provided by in that the maximum amount payable on friendly societies continue in the future. the death of, or on the attainment of a The House divided on the question specified age of members of friendly that the words proposed by Mr Roper societies, which is currently fixed at to be omitted stand part of the motion $25 000, but will be increased to (Mr Richardson in the chair) . $50000. Ayes 44 Mr WOOD (Minister of Public Works) -Both the Labor and National parties Noes .. 31 support the Bill. However, due to in­ flation, it has been necessary to increase Majority against the the amount payable by friendly societies amendment .. 13 to their members on death or the attain­ ment of a specified age from $25 000 to AYES $50000. Upon the death of a member Mr Austin Mr McGrath of a society and under certain circum­ Mr Birrell Mr McInnes stances, the payable benefit of $6000 has Mr Borthwick Mr McKellar been increased to a maximum of Mr Brown Mr Mackinnon $50 000, but that is not a mandatory Mr Burgin Mr Mac1ellan It Mrs Chambers Mr Ramsay figure for all friendly societies. will Mr Coleman Mr Reynolds be a matter for determination by the Mr CoIlins Mr Ross-Edwards friendly society based on their viability Mr Cox Mrs Sibree and assets. Mr Crellin Mr Skeggs Mr Dunstan Mr Smith The Government opposes the amend­ Mr Ebery (South Barwon) Mr Evans Mr Smith ment. The honourable member for (Gippsland East) ( Warrnambool) Brunswick said that the cost of the Mr Hann Mr Tanner administration of friendly societies in Mr Hayes Mr Templeton Victoria was higher than that of any Mr Jasper Mr Thompson Mr Jona Mr Weideman other State. Indeed, the honourable Mr Kennett Mr Whiting !'lember made many compa~isons and, Mr Lacy Mr Williams If he would be kind enough to provide Mr Lieberman Mr Wood Mr McArthur Tellers: me with the figures he used, I shall Mr McCance Mr BaIfour further analyse the matter. The Govem- Mr McClure Mrs Patrick 4078 Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY

NOES The trust expresses some concern in Mr Cain Mr Mathews its report for the year ended 30 June Miss Callister Mr Miller 1981. The report contains a letter from Mr Cathie Mr Remington Dr Coghill Mr Roper the trust to the Minister of Water Mr Crabb Mr Rowe Supply dated 23 September 1981. Ref­ Mr Culpin Mr Sidiropoulos erence is made to the Gellibrand River Mr Edmunds Mr Spyker catchment scheme and points out that Mr Emst Mr Stirling Mr Fogarty Mrs Toner the expenditure on capital works for Mr Fordham Mr Trezise that year was $9 730369 and that the Mr Gavin Dr Vaughan major components represented by that Mr Ginifer Mr Walsh expenditure were the Wurdee BoIuc Mr Hockley Mr Wilton Mr Jolly Tellers: to Pettavel m'ain to replace the existing Mr King Mr Simpson twin channels $4367471; the Bellarine Mr Kirkwood Mr Wilkes supplementary main stage 2 $1 798332, and the MontpeIier-Lovely Banks PAIR transfer 'm'ain $1 074 442. The trust Mr Dixon Mr Simmonds also points out the activities of the The motion was agreed to. trust during that year in relation to the Public Bodies Review Committee. The Bill was read a second time, I will comment on that matter later. and passed through its remaining The letter states: stages. The Trust continues to be concerned at the time taken to decide whether it may draw water from the Gellibrand River catchment, GEELONG WATERWORKS AND and now believes water shortages will occur in SEWERAGE (AMENDMENT) BILL the mid 1980s. The debate (adjourned from Novem­ That is something the Government ber 17) on the motion of Mr Austin must look at, with a view to imple­ (Minister of Agl'liculture) for the second menting the scheme as a special pro­ reading of this Bill, was resumed. ject. Mr ERNST (Geelong East)-This Bill The Geelong Waterworks and Sewer­ seeks to amend the Geelong Water­ age Trust ca'me into being in 1910. works and Sewerage Act 1958 in a Prior to then it was the Geelong Muni­ number of ways. It seeks to update cipal Waterworks Trust which came the requirements imposed on the into being on 25 January 1908. The Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage trust was reconstituted in 1910 to in­ Trust in relation to the accounting and clude sewerage and five commissioners reporting position that has existed for were appointed at that time. The Act some time. It also seeks to require was amended in 1950, 1966 and 1979 the trust to prepare an account of its to increase the number of commission­ activities and financial transactions ers. It is interesting to note that six within two months of the end of the of the commissioners are elected from financial year-that is, 31 August. within the municipal boundaries of the areas they represent. The chairman of The Bill also amends the limits of the trust is a Government appointee. the trusfs borrowing powers by in­ This is one example of how elected creasing the limit on borrowing for representatives can work in public water supply works from $40' million bodies. The commissioners represent to $60 minion, ·an increase of $20 the City of Newtown part of the Shire mill'ion, and in the case of sewerage of Bannockburn, the cities of Geelong works, from $30 ·million to $40 million, and Geelong West, the Shires of Corio an increase of $10 million. These in­ and Bellarine, the City of South Bar- creased limits are required so that . won and part of the Shire of Barrabool. the trust can carry out its work and The Geelong Water and Sewerage Trust ensure that the ratepayers of the Gee­ has a staff of 304 people and I pay long region do not suffer from water tribute to the job that they do, the .shortages. efficiency of their work and the way 2 December 1981] Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage (Amendment) Bill 4079

in which the trust is administered. which could be used for the purpose. They attend public meetings and take After discussion, it was decided that the praise and criticism which some probably screening and a short sub­ other bodies do not. Their importance marine line out to the bay, which was recognized by the Public Bodies would cost about $13·5 million would Review Committee in its recommenda­ be the most suitable method at this tions. If those recommendations are stage. Some consideration should be accepted they will be a model for given to funding these works, and 'I Victoria, to be used in places like should like the Government to clarify Mildura, Bendigo, Ballarat and the La­ whether it is prepared to provide trobe Valley. funding for the sewerage outfall as The trust has a forward thinking the contribution required by the coastal programme of some ten years hence municipalities is about $300000 per which is updated from time to time. The annum; the rest would be borne by most recent updating was in November the ratepayers of Geelong. If financial 1980. Proposed expenditure for major assistance is not forthcoming, the pro­ works during the current ten-year ject might be doubtful and, as the period is $124 million. To ensure that Environment Protection Authority those works are carried out properly, licence is due to expire in 1983, the the Government should consider trust could be in breach of its licence approving projects beyond the twelve if work did not proceed. I seek clari­ months' period and allocating money fication on the pOint of Government on a special basis, as was done in contribution. relation to the Wurdee Boluc pipeline. The Minister is no doubt aware that That is important if Geelong is to have this year $4 million was allo,cated to an adequate water supply and it will the Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage encourage industry and growth. Trust, with an infrastructure cost of $5·4 million. Next year the infrastruc­ According to the report of the trust ture costs will drop to $1 million. for the year ended 30 June 1981, Because of the urgent works needed, the popula,tion supplied with water in the trust will require about $11 million 1950 was 58 000 and in 1981 was to continue its programme. There is 140220, an increase of 242 per cent. concern about the lack of clarification In 1950 the number of houses served of funding. Perhaps the Government with sewerage was 13690, and in 1981 could take up, say, the Gellibrand it is 41 167, an increase of 301 per project, on a special projects basis cent. Income in 1950 was $0·28 million as it did for the Wurdee Buloc pipeline, and in 1981 the figure is $13·48 million, which may alleviate the loss in the an increase of 3814 per cent. There is infrastruoture allocation. If the trust therefore growth in that area but for does not receive a guarantee that suffi­ the growth to continue, Government cient funding will be available, it will commitment is needed. be forced to consider its priorities, and The other area that I bring to the the Black Rock situation will be low on attention of the Government is the its priorities and the work may not Black Rock outfall of which the Min­ proceed. If there is no guarantee of ister is probably aware because of the funding, Geelong could suffer water Environment Proteotion Authority re­ shortages in the near future and this quirement that the Geelong Water­ would be disastrous for the area. works and Sewerage Trust discharge The Bill is a step in the right direc­ waste at the ocean outfall at this point. tion. It allows the trust to expand The trust has had discussions wi,th the its programme to carry out the planned Environment Protection Authority and works. I hope the Minister will answer its local members about the problems the concerns I have mentioned on be­ facing it in relation to the Black Rock half of the trust and I should like the sewerage outfall, and has obtained a Government is some way to commit report from Caldwell Connell Engineers itself regarding the ongoing project. Pty Ltd suggesting six alternatives The Labor Party does not oppose the 4080 Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY Bill but supports it because of the LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) beneficial effect it will have in en­ BILL couraging industry and employment in the Geelong area. The debate (adjourned from Novem­ ber 25) on the motion of Mr Ramsay Mr HANN (Rodney)-The National (Minister of Labour and Industry) for Party supports the Bill which makes the second reading of this Bill was a number of unrelated amendments to resumed. the Geelong Waterworks and Sewerage Act which will assist the trust Ito carry Mr WILKES (Northcote)-This is a out its operations. It increases the pre­ small Bill and, for some reason or sent borrowing limits of the trust other, it provides for three particular from $40 million to $60 million for amendments to amendments that were water supply works, and from $30 passed by this House in 1980. I do million to $40 million for sewerage not know why the Government could works. There is some clarification re­ not have recognized the need in 1980, garding annual reporting and an but it is apparent that these anomalies increased penalty on unpaid rates and that were caused by the three amend­ charges. That is overdue. The Public ments in 1980 will be rectified. Bodies Review Committee, not in this Those three amendments advert to area but in others around the Sta!te, a ships provedore's licence, a construc­ found that people were not paying tion site canteen licence, and the their rates and were using that as a anomaly in respect of the wholesale form of gaining credit at 10 per cent, liquor merchant's licence. The ships compared with 16 per cent and 17 provedore's licence was introduced in per cent that people had to pay on the 1980 amendment, and I cannot the money market. understand why the Liquor Control As the honourable member for Gee­ Commission could not have exercised long East has said, the Public Bodies some discretion and used common Review Committee has recognized the sense in its applic'ation to this particu­ efficient operation of the Geelong lar aspect of the licence. However, it Waterworks and Sewerage Trust. The trust has been' used as a model in did not. A ships provedore's licence some instances because of the unique­ provided not only for liquor, but also ness of its operation. The National for a whole range of other goods. Party supports the Bill. Because it happened to provide ships with liquor, the ships were obliged to Mr BIRRELL (Geelong West)-Both set up a store similar to that for a the honourable member for South Bar­ retail liquor licence where liquor is won and 1 fully support the Bill. sold direct to the public. The premises Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agricul­ of a ships proved ore are usually near ture) -I thank honourable members for the waterfront, 'and those premises are their contribution and 1 note that the of the nature of a factory or store, Bill is supported by all parties. The and there is no occasion, nor should honourable member for Geelong East there be, for he or she to provide the raised several matters relating to the same sort of facility that he or she funding of the operations of the Gee­ would if they sold direct to the public. long Waterworks and Sewerage Trust, particularly in the area of the s'ewerage On one occasion, according to the outfall at Black Rock. 1 will raise this Minister, a ships provedore was ex­ with the Minister of Water Supply, and pected to spend $5000 on premises. I I am sure the Minister will note with cannot understand that. A judge is in interest the comments of the honour­ charge of the Liquor Control Com­ able member. mission and 1 should think the com­ The motion \vas agreed to. mission would have been able to exer­ The Bill was read a second time, and cise its discretion, but that was not passed through it remaining stages. the case. 2 December 1981] Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill 4081

The position is still confusing, be­ The other amendment is also simple cause in his second-reading speech, the in essence. It allows the Liquor Control Minister said: Commission to issue permits to whole­ If they wish to sell liquor to ships, they will sale liquor merchants, and will allow still be subject to any terms, conditions, restric­ them to encourage their customers to tions or limitations the Liquor Control Com­ taste the product before they buy it mission imposes. However, they will not be subject to the provisions of the Act which are if they wish to do so. For instance, basically concerned with the supply of liquor if they sell wine under that particular to the public. licence, and if this amendment is car­ This Bill will not remove any power ried-I have no doubt it will be­ from the commission to impose what­ they may allow their customers to ever restrictions or limitations that it taste the wine before purchasing it. might see fit. In view of the lack of That is a sensible proposition and one discretion exercised in regard to ships that was overlooked in 1980. provedores' licences, I suggest to the What this Bill does not do, and what Minister that he and his Government it should have done, is to amend sec­ should adhere strictly to the intention tion llA which gives the Liquor Con­ of the amendment. trol Commission the power to fix the Another amendment is sensible. It minimum price of beer. If one examines removes the restriction imposed, again the astronomical rises in the cost of in the 1980 amending Bill, on the sale packaged beer, one can understand of liquor at a construction site canteen. why I suggest that a future Labor Liquor could be sold only at that Government would amend that section. canteen. Many canteens on construc­ tion sites sell liquor to workers on The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Rich­ the site. I have been to one or two ardson)-Order! I shall allow a passing of them myself, as no doubt the Min­ sip, but not a complete consumption ister and the Leader of the National of that particular topic. I ask the Party have. The workers go to these honourable member to return to the canteens, buy a couple of cans, take Bill. them back to their lodgings and drink Mr WILKES-I do not intend to them there. That was illegal because transgress your ruling, Mr Acting the Government did not foresee the Speaker, in any way. but a future anomaly or the problem that existed Labor Government would attend to that there. Now, quite sensibly, any auth­ anomaly. I hoped the present Govern­ ority such as the Board of Works, ment would have given some consider­ the Country Roads Board, or private ation to it. By and large, the amend­ contractor or construction company, ments are sensible. Thev will make the that has a licence for a construction Act work in a sensibie way, and if site canteen, can sell packaged liquor ever there was an Act that needs to to be taken and consumed off the have discretion applied to the way in premises of that canteen. which it is is administered, it is the Mr Ross-Edwards-The licence is Liquor Control Act. I hope the Gov­ given only in isolated areas. ernment from time to time gives con­ sideration to updating the Act so that Mr WILI{ES-As the Leader of the the liquor laws of Victoria can be National Party says, the licence is is­ abreast of those in other States. sued in the first place only because of the isolation of the area. The 1980 Mr ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the amendment stipulated a distance from National Party)-This Bill is to amend the nearest source of liquor to the the Liquor Control Act 1968 and, as public. the honourable member for Northcote has said, its purpose is to tidy up Mr Ramsay-Five kilometres. three points that were left in limbo Mr WILKES-That is a long walk by the amendments of 1980. They have on a hot day. This amendment corrects been adequately explained by the hon­ that anomaiy. ourable member. I do not intend to 4082 Country Fire Authority (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY waste the time of the House by going An appeal under the Metropolitan Fire over the ground again. The Bill has Brigades Act can take up to three the support of my party. months to be heard.· Because all the fire stations under the control of the The motion was agreed to. board are in the metropolitan area, a The Bill was read a second time, and transfer does not mean that an em­ passed through its remaining stages. ployee has to shift his residence. The only result in an alteration in the COUNTRY FIRE AUTIlORITY distance travelled to and from work. (AMENDMENT) BILL However, that is not the situation The debate (adjourned from Novem­ with the Country Fire Authority. If an ber 25) on the motion of Mr Maclellan employee of the authority is trans­ (Minister of Transport) for the second ferred, he could be transferred from reading of this Bill was resumed. Mildura to Sale or from Hamilton to Wodonga, which would require a Mr EDMUNDS (Ascot Vale)-The change of residence. If he appeals, he Bill has come from the Upper House, could be faced with enormous per­ where it was debated at some length, sonal expenditure because he would and it is not my intention to delay its have to maintain two residences until passage, because it will amend the the appeal was determined. The union principal Act to provide a right of believes the clause should be altered to appeal against the. decisions of the authority in respect of punishment, something like: promotions and transfers for permanent An appeal against an order of transfer shall employees. It is incongruous that it be determined with the utmost expediency and the order of transfer shaH be stayed pending should have taken so long to have the determination of the appeal. these provisions inserted in the Act. I am a great believer in the principle That seems to be eminently sensible, that employees ought to have a right of and when the matter was raised in the appeal in regard to those matters. Legislative Council the Minister for Police and Emergency Services, as I An appeal tribunal will be established understand it, gave an undertaking that to hear these appeals and a stipendiary he would consider the suggestion. It magistrate will constitute the tribunal, appears that the suggestion will not be which will be assisted at its hearings accepted. I suggest to the Minister of by a representative of the authority and Transport, that if the correspondence by a representative of either the United from the United Fire Fighters Union Fire Fighters Union or the Country Fire has not been drawn to the attention of Authority Officers Association. The union has been agitating for this the Government, I would be quite pre­ measure for some time, and it is finally pared to hand him the letter and ask to become a reality. him, on behalf of the union, to re­ examine the proposition. The Opposi­ In a letter to the Opposition, the tion supports the measure. United Fire Fighters Union said, in relation to the appeal tribunal provi­ Mr ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the sions, that· the draft provisions closely National Party)-The National Party follow the Metropolitan Fire Brigades supports the Bill, which has already Act. :Because there is a difference been. debated in another· place, but between the situation involving the there is one matter of general concern Metropolitan Fire Brigades Board and that is affected by the measure and I that involving the Country 'Fire Auth­ direct it to the attention of the House. ority, the union suggests there ought The question is: What jurisdiction does to be a change· to .proposed section 74B (3), which states: the Minister have over the Country Fire Authority? As the Bill concerns An appeal against an order of transfer shaH not, prior to the determination of the appeal, the financing of the authority, that is a .stay the operation of the order. relevant point. 2 December 1981] Country Fire Authority (Amendment) Bill 4083

I raise it because an incident occurred the power to direct the Melbourne Fire recently when the Minister for Police Brigades Board. I believe that is still and Emergency Services gave an under­ the situation, although it might be taking to a deputation about a certain possible to persuade the board to do all matter, while the Chairman of the sorts of things. Country Fire Authority, talking to another group, said, "1 do not have to I can certainly see some arguments take any notice of the Minister. I shall in favour of such an amendment, do as I choose". As I understand it, the although I am sure the Minister will chairman is a former policeman, and be reluctant to exercise such a power, it may be that he is used to a different hoping always to achieve consensus. environment from his present environ­ However. where these difficulties arise, ment, but this is an important matter. they are embarrassing and they give I direct it to the attention of the Min­ grounds for all sorts of complaints, ister of Transport because the Bill which may not be real but which are authorizes finance and the Minister for nevertheless felt by the person con­ Police and Emergency Services has to cerned. It is not good enough to go to take responsibility for both the policy one person and get one answer and and administration of the Country Fire then get a different answer from Authority and it is ridiculous that the another person. I shall pass on the chairman can overrule the Minister at comments raised by the Leader of the will. It is a serious matter and I believe National Party to the Minister and ask this to be the appropriate time to bring him to give the matter consid~!"ation. it to the attention of the Minister. The motion was agreed to. Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ The Bill was read a second time, and port)-In regard to the matter raised passed through its remaining stages. by the honourable member for Ascot Vale, I would be pleased to pass on the ASSOCIATIONS INCORPORATION letter he mentioned to the Minister. I BILL understand the point he makes. that the correspondence has to be directed This Bill was received from the to the attention of the Minister. I will Council and, on the motion of Mr do that, and I am sure the Minister MACLELLAN (Minister of Transport),. will respond accordingly. was read a first time. In relation to the matter raised by the Leader of the National Party. as a COMPANIES (CONSEQUENTIAL new Minister of Transport, it was my AMENDMENTS) BILL responsibility to steer through a piece This Bill was received from the of legislation that had its origins in the Council and, on the motion of Mr past history which enabled me to give MACLELLAN (Minister of Transport),. directions to the Country Roads Board. was read a first time. I have never had to do that, but that measure gave Ministeri'al control. My COMPANIES (APPLICATION OF belief about that is that such directions LAWS) BILL should always be in writing and the Minister should be up front in taking This Bill was received from the responsibility for any direction he so Council and, on the motion of Mr gives and the consequence of that MACLELLAN (Minister of Transport), direction. One can receive advice in all was read a first time. sorts of ways but there comes 'a crunch point when one has to take respons­ COMPAMES (ADMINISTRATION) ibility for one's decision. BILL This sort of situation arose some This Bill was received from the time ago in industrial relations ques­ Council and, on the motion of Mr tions concerned with the fire-fighting MACLELLAN (Minister of Transport), services and the Minister did not have was read a first time. 4084 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

LEGAL PROFESSION PRACTICE Its introduction involved the Govern­ (AMENDMENT) BILL ment in a fairly fundamental policy This Bill was received from the decision. Two courses ,were open to the Council and, on the motion of Mr Government on this matter. MACLELLAN (Minister of Transport), We already had an Act that had been was read a first time. functioning since 1973 or 1974. As the The sitting was suspended at 6.7 p.m. Minister points out by way of inter­ until.8.4 p.m. jection, it was the first in Australia and that Act, subject to some amend­ HISTORIC BUILDINGS BILL men t, worked reasonably well. There The debate (adjourned from Septem­ were two paths or processes which ber 9) on the moUon of Mr Lieberman could have been followed. The first (Minister for Planning), for the second was to proceed along the path that had reading of this Bill was resumed. been established by the existing Act, Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition)­ which acknowledged that we had a This is the third or fourth attempt to heritage which ought to be preserved get this Bill right. A first draft was for this State. I believe a good start prepared with what seems to have been had been made with that Act. It recog­ undue haste and without consultation nized that we had an obligation to with persons or a number of the bodies the whole community, so far as historic concerned in this area. The result was buildings were concerned, and to some quite frantic rushing about to­ posterity. It was not a matter that wards the end ·of the spring session concerned us, but the generation, and last year, almost twelve months ago. those who came after. A deal of horse trading went on and This first course also involved the some SO-odd amendments were pro­ honouring of a number of promises posed by the Government. The Bill made some seven years ago when the was not then proceeded with and a 1973 or 1974 Act was before the Par­ further draft was prepared, and I think liament. Promises were made then to I am correct in saying that we have widen the scope of that legislation, but a further modification of that redraft those promises were not kept by the before the House this evening. Government. The Bill, which resulted from the SO-odd amendments to which I have The second course-this is one which referred, was a watered-down version seems to have been followed by the of what was the first requirement or ·Government-is to follow a course that demand on the Government-I use that serves the immediate and selfish needs term advisedly-by those who were and demands of a few landowners in concerned with the open development the central business district. To do this of the city of Melbourne, in particular, has meant, I believe, the intrusion of and of Victoria generally. political pressure in the process of However, I indicate that the Bill is identification and preservation of his­ one which the Opposition rejects for toric buildings. Instead of the objective its philosophical approach to the ques­ of having the Historic Buildings tion of historic buildings. The whole Preservation Council as the authorita­ process that is allowed in this Bill is tive and important body, the Minister what the Opposition has come to expect for Planning, one person, becomes from the Government. There has been paramount under these provisions. a response to pressures and demands from interested groups concerned with The Minister interjects and says the making money by pulling down historic Governor-in-Council. I repeat that it buildings and redeveloping the sites as is the Minister for Planning who mak,es those interests saw fit. the recommendations to Cabinet which At the outset I indicate that the Bill determines what the Governor-in­ does demonstrate or tests the philo­ Council will do. That is the funda­ sophical direction of the Government. mental process, if the Minister wants 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4085 to cavil about words, because through­ The Government is exchanging part out the provisions of this Bill it is the of Victoria's heritage for what is per­ Minister for Planning who makes the ceived to be some political benefit. This decisions and. who has the clout. Bill has the potential to bring about massive destruction of historic build­ The Government chose the latter ings now and in the future and it can course I have enunciated, a course be, and may well prove to be" a vir­ which represents the interests of a few tual scourge-earth policy for Victoria's against the whole community and pros­ heritage. It has brought out the worst perity. I suggest those concerns were features of this Government and its looked after by the first course. ~e greedy system of obtaining any finan­ Bill gives arbitrary powers to. the Mm­ cial benefits it can. In a large measure, ister, powers that I say advIsedly no this Bill is striking down the work of Minister or politician should want to the National Trust and the Historic have over our heritage. Perhaps in other Buildings Preservation Council over the matters, yes, but not on the question past seven years. That is work for· of heritage, a matter which should be which many people are owed a great the subject of independent and object­ deal by this community. There is no~h­ ive analysis and guidance. ing in it for them and, in the maIn, The decision taken to adopt this second they are not the Labor Party's political course exemplifies or indicates the dif­ allies. I am prepared to say that very ference between the Liberal Party and few are the Labor Party's political the National Party-I do not want to allies, but they have done the job for presume that prematurely-and the all of us and the Government is en­ Labor Party. The Liberal and National deavouring, through this Bill, to tear parties are on the one hand and the down what they have achieved in that Labor Party is on the other hand. I shall time. endeavour to demonstrate in the first The same old reason is given because 20 minutes of my speech that this Bill the Government's mates have put poli­ panders to narrow sectional interests. tical pressur'e on Government members The difference that I pointed to is that to achieve the 'ends I have mentioned. the Labor Party is concerned about the This Bill will repeal the 1974 Act and interests of all people now and in the replace it with the present Bill before future, which is most important. It is the House. Bills of this kind have concerned and determined to protect aroused varieties of criticisms from the national estate and the heritage of those who are directly concerned with which we are the present custodians these operations. Individuals and groups and to observe the responsibility that have been highly critical of the met­ honourable members have as those hods that have been used to achieve custodians. this result. However, through this Bill the Gov­ I shall indicate what the method of ernment is seeking to do two things, operation has been. When the Act was each of which are equally and totally passed in 1974 it was recognized that unworthy. It seeks to make it easier it had many good features, but some for the few owners and developers to shortcomings. The Minister who intro­ make money by developing land in the duced the Bill, who is now the Minister central business district, destroying of Education, Mr Hunt, said that a re­ wholly or in part, buildings that have view would be carried out in a reason­ been found to be worth preserving by able time and he mentioned three objective and independent examination. years. He also said that consultation At the same time, it desires the Gov­ would occur. However, seven years ernment to stimulate building activity later one notes that no review took in the central business district in the place and I am advised by those who hope that it may win votes by placing are concerned in this area that. no cranes on the skyline before the next consultation took place. The Minis,ter election. This issue is as crude as that. told the National Trust and the Historic 4086 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

Buildings Preservation Council that he Commerce, as well as institutional in­ would discuss the Act and its operation vestors. One knows the consequences with them, but that was not done. that institutional investors can have on When the Bill was before the House in political leaders of the Liberal Party. 1974 a promise ,was made about the They can spell their demise. People out­ extension of those provisions. I shall side the Liberal Party who are con­ refer to Hansard of 10 September 1974 cerned with institutional investment can at page 4. I refer to the Governor's pass judgment on the Premier of Vic­ Speech in the Legislative Council. It toria "and the Liberal Party responds states: and sacks him. However, that was one group that was concerned about this The Historic Buildings Act, passed last session, is being brought into operation, and an amend­ area. It indicated its lack of faith and ing measure, based on experience to date, will trust in the Government and has stated be introduced. New legislation will also be pro­ on "many occasions that it will invest posed to give protection to whole areas" of its money elsewhere. historical architectural interest. In other words, the Governor's Speech In defence of the Government, I say indicated that the provisions of the Act that a great deal of that is part of a would be extended. However, that was big lie that has been told about what is not done. That quote appears in Volume going on in the city as the reason why 318 of Hansard. there has not been more development. The first part of the lie is to say that There was no consultation before this it was the fault of the Melbourne City Bill was introduced about twelve Council as it was stultifying develop­ months ago and the persons to whom ment in the city. The second part of I refer were given no opportunity of the lie was to say it is the city council, discussing it with the Government or and the ugly, nasty historic buildings officers of the department. The public that blot Melbourne's landscape that relations job was done to try to sell the Government has to get rid of as the Bill at the time and then consulta­ quickly as possible. The other contri­ tion started. After the Bill had been buting factor is that the Government introduced it was decided to talk with was desperate, in" the face of what has those people who were concerned about been going on in the State, to do some­ the measure; Secret consultations were thing about these allegations. It thought held over a long period to try to rectify it might lose the election and because the harm that had been done when. the of the consequences it may lead to, a first Bill was introduced. As I said ear­ strong campaign was carried out to lier, 88 amendments were proposed. shift the" blame for all that had oc­ I do not know why there should have curred, or not occurred, onto the Mel­ been secrecy at that time and why a bourne City Council, the Historic matter of this kind could not be dis­ Buildings Preservation Council and the cussed in the open. In summary, I shall National Trust. indicate what the Bill will bring about. The reality is that if there is any It will turn back the clock in the area reason for the slump in this city, it has of preservation and protection. The pro­ nothing to do with historic buildings. mises that were given and the expecta­ It also has less to do with the Mel­ tions of those who were interested in bourne City Council. It is because of the this area since 1974 were forgotten and lack of guidance and direction that this ignored. What are the politics that have Government has failed. The Melbourne led to this attitude by the Government? City Council, since 1969, has been ad­ In the first place, there has been wide­ ministering a blanket interim develop­ spread criticism of the Government re­ ment order. The Government refused, cently on the development of the Mel­ and continues to refuse, the implemen­ bourne central business district. That tation of a strategy" plan which it criticism has come from the business sought in 1969 and which was avail­ community, builders and developers and able in 1974. There is one factor that also from the Melbourne Chamber of turns developers away from this city. Mr Cain 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4087

It is not historic buildings, or the Mel­ all honourable members a letter dated bourne City Council; it is the lack of 10 April referring to a number of argu­ certainty in the city. ments that had been advanced concern­ ing the development of the city. I shall The AC),ING SPEAKER (Mr quote from the letter because it re-' Ricbardson)-Order! I am loath to fers to the argument that the Historic interrupt the Leader of the Opposition, Buildings Preservation Council has, as but I must ask the Minister of Housing it puts it, stifled development. The and the honourable member for Sand­ letter is headed "Historic Buildings Bill ringham to remember that interjections 1981" and reads: are disorderly. I ask them to desist and Recently the Minister for Planning introduced observe the Standing Orders. the Historic Buildings Bill 1981 into the Legis· Mr CAIN-The problem in the city lative .Assembly. Unfortunately 'the Council has not bad the has been the lack of certainty amongst opportunity to contribute to Ithe drafiting of this builders and developers. They know le~islation and I therefore want to provide you that many areas in the city are callin'g WIth the attached resolution of our Council for development. An amount of $480 which described our position .in regard to the million has been spent on an under­ Bill. ground rail loop, rightly or wrongly; I would also like to take this opportunity to dispel some misapprehensions which appear there are those who argue that it ought to have gained some currency in relation to the not to have been done, but neverthe­ operation of the Historic Buildings Preservation less it is there and it has to be made Council over the past six years. use of, and it is necessary to encourage 1. "The Historic Buildings Preservation Council densities and use of those areas that is stifling development of the Central Business District of Melbourne." are serviced by the loop. Between 1976 and 1978 the Historic Build· That is what the Government has re­ ings Preservation Council surveyed the 1900 sites contained in the Oentral Business Dis­ fused to do. It has spent public moneys trict of Melbourne with a view ·to identify­ of great magnitude and has then re­ ing: fused to implement the plan that will (a) those buildings of importance which give effect to what has been created should come on the State's Register of by the spending of that money. The Historic Buildings; lack of certainty and capacity for (b) those streetsca,pes 'of significance which builders and developers to know where should be controlled through the plann­ they can develop has caused them to ing process. turn away from the city. As a result of this survey the Council antici­ pates that a final total of some 80 buildings What appeals to members of the be included on the Register from the Central Government party is a situation where Business District of Melbourne. This constitutes a mere 4 per cent of building stock. When it they can administer a blanket interim is considered that the great majority of these development order and can wheel and buildings are not, realistically, potential deal on the height limits, plot ratios development sites, it is clear that the impact and other things that make up the pack­ of historic buildings control is not substantial. age for living on their blocks of land. Again, if the Council's recommendations to the Melbourne City Council for control of street­ That is what has occurred in Mel­ scapes were implemented, then only another bourne. 6 per cent of total street frontage would be There has been a failure to give cer­ involved. tainty, clear guidance and direction on It should also be said that the Council has a policy of recomending for addition only those where development should take place. parts of buildings which contribute substantially I am reinforced in that view of the to the heritage value of the building. Under this lack of any part being played by his­ arrangement most of the buildings now comi,ng toric buildings in the development of on to the Register in Melbourne's Central Business District are designated with interiors the city because in the past seven excluded which allows owners a free hand with years there have been only six or seven what is done on the interior of the building. disputes about historic buildings. That demonstrates that it is nonsense Last April, when this Bill was again to suggest that in general terms his­ before the House, the Historic Build­ toric buildings have had anything to ings Preservation Council circulated to do with stifling development in this 4088 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

city. The Government, by impliedly and it "may be changed". It is not man­ directly making that assertion, is mak­ datory to change it. As I see it, the ing excuses for its own incompetency. only way that buildings can be placed The Bill seeks to open up the way for on the register under this Bill is by a few who own properties that they lobbying one or more of the narrow regard as being of significance to them groups of individuals or bodies that has and which they want to develop. The power to bring before the council greed of those owners will operate to and the Minister the desire to desig­ the detriment of all in the long run. nate any building. As I said before, this Bill throws out The National Trust is there as an the 1974 Act. The focus of that Act afterthought; it was not originally in­ was, firstly, on the historic aspects cluded. The Government included the of buildings; secondly, on their archi­ National Trust when its members lob­ tectural worth, and thirdly, on designa­ bied. All I am suggesting is that there tion by an objective evaluation by the aTe persons other than members of the process, and it provided for preserva­ National Trust who are interested in tion by an objective evaluation by the seeking to have buildings placed on Historic Buildings Preservation Council. the register. The National Trust is an establishment body, to which a num­ This Bill changes that to control by ber of us belong, and we recognize its the Minister. I assert again that he is worth, but that is not a sufficient being given powers that no Minister avenue of application for all citizens. should have. The power and the author­ "Any person" ought to have that right ity are shifted from the citizen and the if he is a citizen who believes in and Historic Buildings Preservation Coun­ is concerned about historic buildings cil to the Minister. There is also a shift and our heritage. in power away from any person who might want to raise any issue to the The provisional register, which is a owner of the building. Very wide rights new concept introduced in this Bill, are given to the owner by way of sub­ represents a departure from the objec­ mission and appeal. Nothing is given tive independence of the Historic to the citizen, the person who is con­ Buildings Preservation Council. It will cerned and is referred to as "any per­ lead to removal from public scrutiny. son" in many Acts. These are the per­ The key to that proposal is access to sons who are properly concerned about the Minister. The council is excluded, the future of th·is city. The power of and it is undesirable that there should the Minister is dominant. be allegations of secret deals, but that is what will be said. The Government I cite as examples the power of the has opened itself up to that by going Minister in clause 5 (6) and (9) , along with a pro\Tiision of this kind after whereby the Minister can, as I under­ the event. It is a fait accompli when stand it, dismiss council members with­ it is published, and that is the problem. out any cause if he desires to do so. I know the Minister win not have to The Minister's wish will be the law. do the job for long and he will we]­ .I reject that as being desirable for a come the news. It is not a task that body of this kind; it is an undesirable anyone concerned about objectivity course to be followed. The independ­ and independence would wish to under­ ence of persons appointed to the body take. As the provisional register is set can suffer if that course is followed. up, whether rightly or wrongly, the . The final formal act of the council re­ people who do not approve of some quires the seal of the Minister, as pro­ decisions that are proceeded with say vided in clause 4 (3). The council as that it was a backroom decision with it is structured under this measure no room for public scrutiny. The Bill needs the Ministry to service it; it is does not satisfy the needs of the made dependent on the Ministry. The people of Victoria. Therefore, I move: That all the words after "That" be omitted register may be changed at any time with the view of inserting in pJace thereof the by the Minister, and I emphasize that words "this Bill be withdrawn and redrafted Mr Cain 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4089

after-(a) consultation with the Historic that one has a total environment and Building Preservation Council, the National Trust of Australia (Victoria) and all other a man-made environment. One has to groups which have demonstrated a concern .for identify the part of the environment Victoria's heritage and (b) due consideration that ought to be protected by legis­ to the inclusion in the Bill of precincts, gardens, lation. One then has to identify the mines and sites of archaelogical scientific, engineering, cultural and urban significance." specific parts of the man-made environ­ ment that are of importance and signi­ At the outset, the Labor Party did not ficance. The procedure that should be seek to amend the Bill because too followed is the designation of those many amendments would be required. buildings and the other areas I have The motion sets out the process that indicated in the reasoned amendment, should be followed in determining the such as precincts, gardens, mines and issues and the principles that should so on which are to be protected. be established in a Bill of this kind. An evaluation and examination of the That process can be carried out, and, present Act should be undertaken with under the existing Act, that process· the people who have been concerned was proceeding in that direction. The with it and not just a select few. process has proved highly successful in The subject of precincts, whicn the other areas of the world. Various prin­ Government said it would consider ciples should be followed. Firstly, the seven years ago, ought to be con­ Act should be equally binding on State sidered. The Honourable Alan Hunt, to Government buildings and privately­ whom I referred earlier, introduced the owned buildings. This is the practice Bill seven years ago, and the form·er followed with national bodies in the Premier, Mr Hamer, on a number of Australian Heritage Commission Act occasions referred to the intention of which binds both Commonwealth auth­ the Government to expand the Act to orities as well as private buildings in cover precincts. A number of press Commonwealth areas. cuttings indicate that that is the case; Secondly, it is essential that the same the Government was quite public rights should be· given to "any person" about it. as is given to other select individuals In drafting a Bill of this type, one and groups in regard to the processes needs to examine the whole of the pro­ to be followed in the designation and cesses free from the pressures of those preservation of buildings. These rights who seek to impose them. The Bill should also be given to unincorporated ought to escape from the adversary organizations. There should not be a process which is unfortunately the pro­ provisional register. The present pro­ cess by which this Bill was framed. posal is couched in secrecy with no The measure is a "developers Bill" in public scrutiny or accountability. In­ the first place, and no consultation took terim preservation is desirable and place with the bodies to whom I re~ should be achieved by a similar process ferred. A conflict situation was estab· to that in section 18 of the 1974 Act lished between the developers, the or by a provision of interim preserva­ National Trust of Australia (Victoria) tion to operate upon service of a and the Historic Buildings Preservation notice until otherwise determined by Council. Various meetings were held the council. If the council serves a and 80 ad hoc compromises were notice on the owner the interim preser­ reached in the various amendments. vation operates until some determina­ It was a trade-off between the trust tion by the council removes it. and the developers. The criteria to be used in determin­ The Labor Party believes that is the ing whether a building should be regis­ wrong way in which to frame legisla­ tered should depend solely on archi­ tion of this kind. The process for pre­ tectural or historical significance and paring legislation is simple and should not, as in the current Bill,upon econo­ be known to the advisers of the Gov­ mic considerations. The process of ernment. The processes are not difficult designation and preservation should be to enunciate. The first step is to realize open and subject to public scrutiny. 4090 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY The powers proposed in the present the same time it puts at jeopardy the Bill are vested in the Minister and too heritage of future generations to whom much emphasis is placed on political we have an enormous obligation. aspects. In the short period of the next few months when the Minister ad­ Mr WHITING (Mildura)-It was ministers the Act he will regret the interesting to note that the Leader of political emphasis that exists in the the Opposition was of the opinion that Bill. the proposed legislation has been shrouded in secrecy. In the second­ The powers given to the Minister reading speech, the Minister for Plan­ will result in political responses which ning s'aid: reflect the short-term political philo­ On 1st April this year, I introduced a Bi1I to sophy of a Government regardless of replace the Historic Buildings Act of 1974. which party is in power. I respect that After introducing that Bill I invited submissions as a desirable aspect of an Historic ar-d constru~tive criticism of the Bill, with a VIew to makmg amendments that would achieve Buildings Preservation Act. The desig­ broad consensus and acceptance. I adjourned nation and preservation should be the debate for this purpose. treated more objectively because we have obligations that extend beyond The Bill was originally introduced on this generation. The ultimate decision 9 September this year. There can be about the preservation of buildings and no doubt that there was a considerable other areas should rest with the Minis­ amount of input on the Bill between ter but that. decision should be open 1 April and 9 September this year. to advice tendered after the processes when the final drafting occurred. I fail of due inquiry and investigation which to understand the accusations of is totally free and independent of secrecy made by the Leader of the political considerations. Opposition, especially in light of the time allotted by the Minister for As the reasoned amendment enun­ criticism and input en the Bill. The time ciates, it is also desirable to extend allotted was sufficient to allow those the provisions to include precincts, interested parties to place submis­ streetscapes and historic sites, some of sions on the revised Bill. which the Government promised to undertake seven years ago. The Bill is I t is interesting to note that the a naked political exercise by the Gov­ Historic Building Preservation Council ernment. Our heritage, it seems is to will become the Historic Buildings be sacrificed to curry political faV01lr Council. I do not agree with the Leader with a few people who may help the of the Opposition, who said that the Government's image next year. The way is now clear for demolishing Vic­ Government needs all the help it can toria's historic buildings. The proposed get! The Bill contains enormous poten­ register of historic buildings will tial for destruction. If certain people ensure that any building that is con­ chose to adopt a "scorched earth sidered to be either of historical or policy" of. massive proportions through architectural importance will be placed this city the small percentage of build­ on the re'gister. Adequate safeguards wiU exist for the owners not to ings which I mentioned could be demolish, alter or remove the building, affected. not to enter into an agreement for the The Bill contains considerable arro­ sal~ of the land until after 30 days gance, which is regrettable in the pre­ notIce has been given to the Minister servation of historic buildings. It con­ and to properly preserve and maintain tains some stupidity and lots of des­ and care for the building on the land. peration as the Government tries to That provision will ensure that no put cranes on the skyline at any cost untoward actions occur. In addition, .regardless of the consequences to this under clause 18, the council shaH, of city. The measure endeavours to obtain its own motion or on the application some short-term benefit by pandering of the National Trust of Australia or on to the narrow interests of a few. At the application of an owner of the Mr Cain 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4091 relevant building in the prescribed that the situation will be overcome. It form or at the direction of the Minister will probably only take another five or make an examination as to whether a 'ten years before those cases are resolvec!. building should be added to or removed The National Party is of the view from the register or that any alteration that the safeguards included in the be made to any item on the register. Bill are sufficient-certainly for the The National Trust of Australia has present-and although it is agreed that ample opportunity under that provision some of the terminology and definitions to either add buildings to or subtract will have to be tested by use to deter­ buildings from the register. mine whether amendments are needed The provisions of the register should in future, it is possible that amend­ be satisfactory wherever there is doubt ments may have to be introduced in on the future of a building that is con­ twelve months or two years time so sidered to be of either historical or that smoother operation of the Act architectural importance. A recent. will ensure that only those buildings amendment to the Education Act en­ of great importance are retained. sured that Ministerial control is exer­ My party is of the opinion that it is cised over the appointment of senior very easy to restrict development to officers to the position of regional the stage where a large number of directors of education. Although hon­ similar buildings are placed on the ourable members opposite spoke register. That can have a stifling effect strongly against the provision, they on some types of development. We are voted in favour of the Minister being not opposed to town house develop­ able to make these appointments. ment in inner suburbs provided the Under the Westminster tradition, a general re-development of those units government is elected to govern and is in line with the period in which they Ministers are fully responsible for their were erected. If sufficient ~xamples actions. If a Minister does not accept of those buildings are retained for pos­ that responsibility, he deserves to be terity the work of the former Historic censured. Indeed, if the Parliament Buildings Preservation Council win moves away from that tradition, it may have been justified. as well abolish the position of Ministers. Mr Mlller-We can't look at street­ Ministers should be judged on the scapes anymore. decisions they make. Mr WHITING-I do not know The Historic Buildings Register is a whether the honourable member for vast document. The unique situation Prahran is correct in his assumption exists where, by virtue of the action of because I believe, if there is provision for the National Trust of Australia the Uniting Church in Australia, there (Victoria) or the Historic Buildings could be a surplus of church buildings Council to decide which buildings tha t are of some historic note and should be included in the register, they architectural importance. The Historic will have an opportunity to eventually Buildings Council will have to closely ensure that sufficient of those types of examine the situation that will have buildings are preserved for future gen­ to be delicately handled so that, if a erations. building is of sufficient historical and The National Party is not greatly architectural value, it will be preserved. concerned about the provisions of the However, the situation could ari;se Bill. It is aware that safeguards are where a church building could be included and that the Bill will have the classified as being of importance but desired effect of preserving those build­ the local church congregation could ings that are worthy of preservation. decide to sell that property to private The Leader of· the Opposition moved enterprise for development. It is to be an amendment that the Bill be with­ hoped that that situation will be kept drawn and redrafted to provide for in mind by the Minister for 'Planning various new provisions. The National and the Historic Buildings Council so Party is of the opinion that sufficient 4092 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

time should have elapsed to permit an National Trust indicated in its news­ input regarding most of the provisions letter of October this year, the Gov­ to which the amendment refers. For ernment's heart is simply not in the that reason, the National Party will not preservation of historic buildings. In support the reasoned amendment. addition, it is no mere accident that Mr MILLER (Prahran)-It has been the Historic Buildings Preservation very interesting listening to the debate Council has been abolished. What we on the Bill. One gets the feeling that have seen is the replacement of that the National Party adopts the· same council with the Historic Buildings approach as the Minister for Planning, Council. The word "preservation" is which is in marked contrast to the being deleted. approach adopted by the former Prem­ It is no accident that the term ier who was largely responsible for "preservation" is removed because the the introduction of the 1974 Historic Government is not concerned with pre­ Buildings Bill which was concerned serving Victoria's architectural and with the preservation of our archi­ historic heritage. Indeed, if one looks tectural heritage in Victoria. The Min­ at the history of the Historic Buildings ister has fallen into the camp that Preservation Council, it is most useful believes in "development at any cost". to see what it has done over the past One can see from the Bill where the seven years. Nobody could allege that Minister and his advisers stand. Obvi­ that council was a supporter of the ously those "quality of life" issues that Labor Party. Many of its members the former Premier was concerned were supporters of the "development about have been thrown out the at any cost" theory but, nevertheless, window when one considers what the the council expanded the historic build­ ramifications of the Bill will be. ings register to a point where some 600 buildings are now on that register. The Thompson approach has been to Interestingly enough, only some 70 "deveJop at any cost" and throw out the buildings on the register are in the great many advances made in the earlier central business district. Every success legislation. That legislation certainly the council had in the central business had its defects. No-one would agree district resulted in an enormous amount that it was a perfect piece of legisla­ of squealing by certain city building tion but at least it had the benefit of owners. Every time there was an simplicity, which this measure does not adverse decision to them, they squealed have. It is one of the most cumber­ to the sympathetic ear of the Minister some, bureaucratic and unwieldly for Planning. As a result of the lobby­ measures ever to be introduced. In ing of that group of persons in our addition to those obvious criticisms, community-as the Deputy Leader of worse than that, it represents probably the National Party indicated some of the end of the anti-conservation back­ the churches have a surplus of church lash that personifies the Government. properties - additional amendments The Government is so anti-conserva­ have been made to the Act. It is also tion that one need only look at three significant that the newly-named His­ or four examples of its recent activities toric Buildings Council will not be able to prove that theory. It sacked the to fulfil the role of the New South Melbourne City Council because it be­ Wales Historic Houses Trust because it lieved the council was holding up the is an emasculated body and its mem­ so-called "development at any cos't" bers will be in the pocket of the Min­ approach of the Government. It ister for Planning. abolished the Town Planning Appeals Mr Speaker, let me take you through Tribunal because it believed that tri­ an analysis of the Historic Buildings bunal was holding up development in Council. Dr Miles Lewis, a senior Victoria. It has failed to contribute lecturer in architecture at the Univers­ significantly to the Historic Buildings ity of Melbourne and president of the Council. It has provided only $100000 Council for the Historic Environment, to that council and, frankly, as the in an article published in the Age on 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4093

22 April 1981 made a number of allow a Minister to connive secretly at altera­ significant claims. On the proposed tions and demolitions which would not have Historic Buildings Council, he states: been acceptable to the council. Other, and more useful provisions of the new The Minister for Planning, Mr Lieberman, has Bill give the council clearer power to specify made great play of the need to bring a body the land to be protected in relation to any like the council, which spends public money building, whether or not it belongs to the same and affects private property, under the direct owner, and provide that a summary of alJ its control of himself as Minister and thus of the recommendations is tabled in Parliament. At Government elected by the public. But with all least it will be known when a Minister is this heartwarming concern for the public, he acting contrary to its advice. Individual mem­ has been at great pains to eliminate the right bers of the council are to be indemnified against of members of ,the public to nominate buildings legal actions launched against them in the past. for consideration, and he has reinforced the though the council as a body can now be used. character of the council as a body representing selected interest groups and with no public Members of the Labor Party are most representation whatsoever-not even the usual concerned about the exclusion of the token housewife. public and conservation bodies from this The National Trust in its October News Bill. That in another proposition which is takes up the matter of partiCipation of made in the National Trust's newsletter the public and comments on the need and by Or Lewis. When one examines for new initiatives for historical the composition of the new Historic buildings in Australia in a three page Buildings Council, one finds that only critical analysis of the proposed legisla­ one member of the twelve has any tion. At page 3 that article reads: architectural or historical expertise. The council is dominated by Ministerial It should be pointed out that public partid­ paltion is not welcomed and no longer does Mr appointments, and the National Trust is Ordinary Citizen have the simple right to the one exception. Two new additions nominate a building to the Register. What will be made to the council. It is interest­ chance does the ordinary person have of help­ ing to consider who they are. Or Lewis ing to preserve something of the nation's heritage? says: The new Bill makes two additions to the Tha't is an important point when one council which are even less reasonable. One is considers the proposition being intro­ a representa.tive of the religious denominations, duced in this Bill. The article continues: and is a direct result of intensive lobbying by this group of owners. We can anticipate the A member of the public or even a specialist addition of representatives of home owners, conservation or professional body, may nomin­ shop owners, hotel owners and so on, ad ate a building only to the Minister. who decides infinitum. if it should be considered by the council at all. If it is considered by the council the member The other addition to the council is the of the public does not have the right to appear, Director-General of Public Works or his which is guaranteed to the owner of the nominee. property. The council may decide to consult This has to be the last straw in Govern­ him, but any submission he makes will be cross­ ment hypocrisy. Why should a nominee examined by the owner's legal representative and there is no reciprocal right for him to cross­ of the Director-General of Public Works examine the owner's evidence. be on this council? What sort of system is being introduced The old Historic Buildings Act was by the Minister, a lawyer who comes conceived to apply equaIIy to Govern­ into the Parliament mouthing mealy­ ment as to private buildings. Why has mouthed platitudes about preserving the Government removed the approval historic buildings when there is really for it to apply to Government buildings? no attempt to preserve public right of There is no good reaSOn why this Bill participation? should not apply to Government build­ As far as the provisional register is ings, as the Commonwealth legislation concerned, a new innovation and a does. It should apply to both Govern­ product of this Bill, Dr Lewis is also ment and priva1e buildings, so that it is highly critical and says: clear there is no double standa'rd. Dr Unfortunately the provisional register is under Lewis says: direct ministerial control rather than the council Because of inter-Ministerial and inter-depart­ and there is no provision for policing the mental rivalries, it became the practice not to control so that it reads like a mechanism to consider Government buildings for registration. Session 1981-140 4094 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

The new Bill goes further and specifically ments with owners who may consent excludes Government buildings which are covered by the Government Buildings Advisory to their property being placed on a pro­ Council Act. This Act, however, provides for a visional register. The article continues: council to consider only those buildings referred Any owner learning of the Council's intention to it by the Minister of Public Works. to examine his building for registration may under s. 15 apply to the Minister for his building Those buildings have amounted to only to be placed on the Provisional Register. a bare handful. That article goes on to What is the purpose of those negotia­ make some other highly critical points tions? They are not made clear but some of which were elaborated by Dr undoubtedly .they will result in dupli­ Lewis on "Frontline" recently. It is also cation and further bureaucratic adven­ interesting that the National Trust with tures. 25000 members has indicated its strong opposition to the Bill. I have already Many other criticism:s are made of the indicated that the 1981 issiJe of the Bill. I will address only a couple more. National Trust News contains criticisms They concern in particular the powers of of the Bill. At page 3 the following the Historic Buildings Council. Under appears: this Bill the council has power to issue interim preservation orders. Unfortun­ At the heart of .the matter is the Govern­ ment's inability to see the positive side of ately this will have repercussions. Why preservation and its consequent failUre to give the council cannot be trusted any longer historic buildings sufficient priority in a coherent to carry out that important work is a fashion. It is a Government which is only mystery, as no evidence has been given prepared to allocate $100 000 per annum to the Historic Buildings Council for financial assis­ of abuse under previous circumstances. tance to owners of historic buildings throughout The Bill has other defects. It places the State. an unnecessary and repetitive emphasis Why does the Government permit such on economic criteria which reveals a an appalling development around a lack of understanding of the prob­ magniificent historic buildi'ng like lems besetting the preservation of Labassa in Caul field? Any other civilized historic Government buildings in Aus:­ country in the world would not permit tralia. The new legislation will virtu­ such developm'ent. A superb building ally require an owner to investigate classified by the National Trust has with­ and make submissions concerning in a few feet of its front door some of the economic feasibility of a building. the most appalling development one If he does not, it may well be held could imagine. The article continues: against him in the future. Of a)) overseas advanced countries in the Clearly it would be preferable to es­ Western World, we know of no other Govern­ tablish a register of those buildings ment which spends so little. Our Government seems blind to the tourist potential of historic that are of architectural or historic buildings in private ownership and prefers to importance, and this is a view with allocate millions of dol1ars instead to fake which the Opposition strongly agrees recreations whilst the genuine articles are with the National Trust. The owners of allowed to decay. those buildings should be able to pre­ Unfortunately this has been the history serve their rights so that they can of Victoria. The genuine articles are raise financial and other related points allowed to decay while fake monuments at a later time. It would save vast for which the Government has become amounts of money and an enormous so renowned are established and erected. amount of time and trouble, given that At present the Government's heart is not there is this complicated appeals pro­ in the preservation of Victofiia's historic cedure under clauses 18 and 22 of the buildings. In addition, strong criticism present Bill. is 'expressed about the involvement of' There has been a sell out by this the Minister in this Bill. The- Labor Government to the developers. As the Party and the National Trust say that Leader of the Labor Party indicated, once again it has evidence that lobbying this Bill is an abdication of the Gov­ will become a major factor in the preser­ ernment's responsibility to preserve vation of historic buildings. The Minister our heritage in favour of the develop­ is to be given power to enter into agree- ers. There has to be a balanced Mr Miller 2 Dec'ember 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4095 approach between preservation and them. To my way' of thinking, in many development. Under this Bill, there is cases those homes would be looked a cumbersome unwieldly approach to after whether the Historic Buildings preservation, and what is seen is de­ Council put them on a register, or velopment at any cost. whether or not the Minister makes a Our heritage should be preserved. decision. Unfortunately, this Bill does very little There is one thing that could be done to preserve. what little history, what in this Bill to help the private home­ little architectural and historically im­ owner section. I would like the Min­ portant buildings there are in Australia. ister, between the Bill passing from Mr BURGIN (Polwarth)-I wish to here to another place, to consider giv­ speak briefly on one aspect of this Bill. ing private homeowners representa­ Firstly, listening to the debate tonight, tion on the Historic Buildings Council. honourable members have truly seen It would mean a slight amendment to what a city-based Opposition there is in the Bill, changing to thirteen the num­ this Parliament, because all that we ber on the council. The churches have heard in relation to this Bill from the been given representation on this Opposition was the city-based conten­ council, and the Government could well tions of sell out to developers, ad­ afford to give this section of the com­ vancement at all costs. Of course, that munity, which I set apart from all the is not all that the Bill is about. development sections in the historic There are 600 buildings on this buildings issue, a say on this commit­ Historic Buildings Register, yet only 70 tee so that at least on a one-thirteenth of those are in the metropolitan area. basis they could express a point of view There is another very different aspect when discussions are taking place on to historic buildings in Victoria, apart these matters. from selling out to developers, and Mr GA VIN (Coburg)-I support the that is what I wish to speak on. It is commen ts made by the Leader of the the situation of the private homeowners Opposition and the honourable mem­ who are caught up within the Historic ber for Prahran. It is ironic that this Buildings Act. In the past, bureaucrats Bill is being introduced in the dying have told them what colour they can days of this Government, when it is paint a room, what they can do with almost certain to be defeated at the ,the interior decorating of a building, yet next election. This Bill demolishes a it was the structural part of the build­ body which this Government estab­ ing that was important in the private lished under the former Premier, when home section. These private individuals, the Government was popular with the in their private homes, had to put up people. It is a complete turn about to with people travelling around the State the achievements of the former Premier telling them what they should do within who worked to achieve some quality their buildings. I do not think that we, of life for Victorians. as a State Government, should put people in their private homes in that Mr Kennett-And he did. kind of position. Mr GA VIN-I accept that he did, There are a number of improvements and the original Act was one of the in this Bill for the private homeowner. reasons for it. It is ironic that the It must be remembered that these pri­ Government wants to go out of office vate homeowners perhaps have owned in this fashion by demolishing some­ these historic buildings for generations. thing that the former Premier accom­ They have looked after them extremely plished. well. Some generations have not had the finances to keep them up to the When the original Bill was introduced standards they would like, but when in 1974-and I suggest to honourable times are better these people do spend members that they ought to read this money on their homes because they at some stage-the Honourable Alan love their homes and they look after Hunt, the now Minister of Education 4096 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY had a great deal to say about the dis­ The Government has demonstrated cussions that preceded the legislation a complete inability to see the positive and the degree of unanimity there was side of the preservation of historic in establishing the Historic Buildings buildings. It has allocated only $100 000 Council. That is contrary to what has to the Historic Buildings Council for occurred in this Bill. Despite promises assistance to the owners of historic over seven years to amend the legisla .. buildings. It is blind to the tourist tion, this Government has made three potential of historic buildings. efforts to do so. This is the third, and probably this Bill will be passed. Mr Miller-Its heart is not in it. In April the Government introduced Mr GA VIN-I agree with the honour­ a Bill with which the Department of able member for Prahran. I am a little Planning was not happy, anp, accord­ surprised about that, because recently ing to the Age of 1 April, the Secretary the Minister for Tourism announced of the Department of Planning said the expenditure of $2·3 million in an that he disowned it, and he expressed effort to attract tourists from inter­ his distaste for certain clauses in the state and overseas. The Minister went Bill. The Government had to withdraw to the airport with twenty lovely young that Bill, and it introduced a new Bill ladies in an effort to entice people to in the early part of May, which it Melbourne, but that sort of activity wished to ram through this House, is quite contrary to what the Minister but failed to do so. This Bill, that has for Planning is trying to do through been introduced in September, is the this Bill. Quite clearly, the Government Government's third effort and it has would rather not have any historic not been very successful, because I buildings to show the tourists. Equally understand that the Minister has at clearly, if that is the case, tourists least ten amendments that he wishes will not come to Melbourne because to introduce later on. This Bill has not there will be nothing for them to see been proceeded with in a very effective here. Melbourne will become a sterile or efficient manner. The honourable city and will just die. The Govern­ member for Prahran says that there ment prefers to build monumental are twelve amendments. I thought blunders while the genuine articles are there were only ten. allowed to decay. The Government is not looking forward to the future and, In relation to the first Bill introduced in twenty years' time, if this Govern­ by the Government as I mentioned be­ ment has its way, there will be very fore, the Secretary of the Department little left to attract tourists to this of Planning indicated to the Age on city. 1 April that he was not happy with the Bill because he was expected to adopt I should have thought that there legislation in a hurry, which was con­ would have been an attempt to initiate trary to what occurred in 1974. new concepts through the Bill. I should have thought there would have been Clearly, the legislative review of this some mention of the desirability of Ministry for Planning was not ade­ recycling buildings. An industry could quate, and initially did not take any ac­ be established based on the recycling count of a specialized viewpoint. The of buildings; it would require new Minister embarrassed both his depart­ skills, which would assist educational mental officers and the Public Service. It institutions, and it would be a boost indicates that this Government is on {he to the economic deveJopment of the skids, that this Minister is losing his sen­ State, as well as helping the appren­ sitivity and that his honeymoon is over. ticeship system. It would also help to The way in which the Minister intro­ create new jobs in different areas. duced the first Bill for which he was responsible indicated that he was not If that had been linked with the a preservationist Minister and that he tourist potential of historic buildings, was acting contrary to the established it might have been possible to sell it policies of the former Premier. to the people of Melbourne as well as Mr Gavin 2 Decemtber 1981 ] Historic Buildings Bill 4097

to the tourists of the world. It is a be a disaster. The report appeared after pity the Government has not tried to the introduction of the first Bill that establish an industry for the recyclino was introduced this year: of. ~uildings. The entire argument th~ :rhe Minister for Planning, Mr Lieberman, MInIster has adopted of economic feasi­ said yesterday that the new legisla·tion would bility might have been justified, be­ lead to the demolition of some historic buildings that were under preservation orders but were cause new skills would have been uneconomic to develop. ' available and a new industry would have been created, which would have Mr Ueberman-Which journalist changed the economic considerations wrote that? to be taken into account in considering Mr GAVIN-It was Paul Robinson of the preservation of historic buildings. the Age. The article appeared on 2 April under the heading "New law . I shall list the four failings of the threat to historic buildings". The other BIll as I see them. It is unfortunate two paragraphs state: that there is to be no economic. ex­ Mr Lieberman agreed that if he received a pertise on the council. The number of demolition request from an owner of an representatives is being expanded but "uneconomic historic building" and Melbourne experts are not being appointed. The already had several examples of the architec­ honourable member for Polwarth sug­ ture, the application would be treated sympa­ gested that the trend could go even thetically. "If we have already got enough of, for further. The Government should have example, a particular period of architecture, made provision fOi th~ introduction of then there is no way it can be saved," he said. economic expertise. The second main Mr Lieberman-That is an inaccurate failing is that public participation will not be welcomed. In fact, as the hon­ report. ourable member for Prahran indicated, The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ the Government is attempting to man)-Order! The Minister should cease squeeze the public out of the process. interjecting. He will have the oppor­ tunity of replying shortly. The third major failing is the degree of Ministerial control. The Opposition Mr GA VIN-That sort of thing is objects to that, particularly in relation one of the reasons why this Govern­ to the provisional register, and be­ ment's popularity varies between 33 cause of the possibility of deals being per cent and 34 per cent and it is one done. The Minister is well aware of of the reasons why it will be thrown the criticism he has received about out. It is ironic that this sort of mea­ that matter. The fourth main failing sure should be introduced almost im­ is the removal of the term "preserva­ mediatelyafter the sacking of the tion" from the title of the council. This former Pr~mier, who established the matter was mentioned by the Deputy initial legislation, which was creditable. Leader of the National Party but, for This Bill is quite contrary to the spirit some strange reason, the honourable of the 1974 Act. I am amazed that member did not seem to believe it was the Government is proceeding with it important. Members of the Opposition and I am not surprised that no back­ believe it is important and believe it bench member of the Government isa part of the over-all philosophy of party has defended the proposed legis­ the Government, which is quite con­ lation. trary to the policies established by the Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ former Premier who was fired by the ning)-Of course, I oppose the reas­ Government. oned amendment moved by the Leader I now turn to a report that appeared of the Opposition. It is important that in the Age of Thursday, 2 April 1981 honourable members pay careful regard dealing with remarks made by the to the comments made by the Leader Minister for Planning. I shall read three of the Opposition and his supporting paragraphs from the article because speakers. because they show with great they are shocking and demonstrate that clarity-both for honourable members the new directions for Melbourne will and for the people of Victoria-the 4098 HistDric Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

differences in philDsDphical approach in this State and that of the Opposition, between the Government and the if the Opposition should be given the Opposition. I accept the comment of chance to govern. In its statements, the the Leader of the Opposition when Opposition has attempted to promote he referred to the way in which this the divisiveness which has existed in measure provides an illustration of certain quarters and which has caused the difference in the philosophicalap­ difficulties for this State. proach between the Liberal Party of I do not know whether the current Victoria, which will continue to rep­ speech writer employed by the Leader resent the people of Victoria, and the of the Opposition is doing him any aspiring Opposition, which is made up good at all! I think he did better when of a number of interesting people, some writing his own speeches. The language of whom, unfortunately, are driven by and the phrases used by the Leader of forces that have no rega·rdand nO' the Opposition tonight do not do justice respect for the rights of individuals, to him and are divisive and inaccurate. fDr people or for property. They do not give the people of Victoria The proposed legislation enables the an opportunity of judging the differ­ Government-and the Leader of the ences between the two parties concern­ 'Opposition accepts this-to demon­ ing the Bill. It is good that Parliament strate the fundamental difference be­ is given the opportunity of debating tween the Government and the Oppo­ philc1sophical and policy differences. sition. The comments made by the That is healthy and good. However, the Leader of the Opposition establish be­ Leader of the Opposition used expres­ yond doubt that the Opposition has sions like "scorched earth", "represent­ no regard for the Westminster system. ing interests against the whole of the because the thrust of the comments community", "response to pr~ssure made by the Leader of the Opposition groups", "response to interest groups", is that legislation of this sort, has the and the crunch expression, "greedy effect of limiting, and in some cases satellites". I do not know where he got totally depriving a property owner in that last expression. this State, this democracy, of the right It needs to be said of the Bill that to use and enjoy his property. The the Victorian Liberal Government was Government says those are precious the first Government in Australia to rights, and I am glad that the National introduce legislation recognizing the Party is supporting the Government need to encourage and preserve .our on this issue. The Opposition says they heritage. During the eight or nine years should not be in the hands of a Min­ that the Act has operated remarkable ister of the Crown, responsible for the progress has been achieved. Consider­ legislation, answerable to the Parlia­ able difficulty has been encountered and ment. answerable to the Cabinet of problems have arisen as a result of the which he is a member and, of course, vexed questions and the difficulties that answerable to the people. arise in a democracy between the rights That was the essence of what the of property owners, rights which the Leader of the Opposition said. He said Government respects, and the interests there should be a body that is not repre­ of the community of today and to­ sentative of the people and not elected morrow regarding heritage. That legis­ by the people, not answerable to Par­ lation was a pace-setter in Australia. It liament and in no way responsible is interesting that legislation' in other through the Cabinet-Westminster sys­ parts of Australia and in democracies tem and that that body should be in other parts of the world bears re­ responsibJe for supervising and control­ markable similarity to the Bill before ling, and perhaps diminishing, the the House tonight. rights of property owners in Victoria The existing law has thrown up some I accept that that statement clarifies problems and some anomalies, and the and distinguishes the approach and the Government is prepared to face up to philosophy of the Liberal Government that and to say that there ought to be Mr Lieberman 2 Decemher 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4099 a change which is designed to comple­ to ameliorate or overcome the financial ment what has been done in the past. difficulty where a disadvantage or an The Government recognizes the hard economic disability is proven to exist. work of the people to whom the Leader The thrust of the Opposition's policy of the Opposition referred. I agree with is that decisions which require owners him that some dedicated people have to preserve buiIdings-even though that worked towards preserving Victoria's requirement may cause financial hard­ heritage. However, it is important for a ship to those owners, to their families Government to have the courage, as or to their shareholders-should be this Government has, to say that change taken by a body that is not elected and ought to be considered when change is is not accountable to the people or to in the interests of the whole thrust of Parliament. Those decisions may result the Government's objectives and its in an imposition on the taxpayers of aims for the economy and the State Victoria who would have no means of and in order to achieve successful pre­ reacting to that imposition in the nor­ servation of heritage. mal and traditional way, the way of The Leader of the Opposition must Westminster, which Government mem­ agree that serious conflicts have arisen bers hold in deep respect. between what property owners thought The honourable member for Oak­ they ought to be able to do with their leigh, who interjects, is a student of properties and those concerned with Parliamentary systems throughout the preserving historic buildings. world and he probably knows much The Leader of the Opposition has more about them than I do because of attempted to persuade Parliament-I his experience in those matters, so he suggest he has failed dismally-that the should realize that, in most countries, Bill is undemocratic and not in the final "gut' decisions, if I may so call interests of the State. The Bill provides them, regarding the rights of property that the vexed and difficult questions owners and regarding the way in which that lie ahead with respect to heritage taxpayers' funds will be used to assist and preservation should be the respon­ private property owners to preserve sibility, in the final outcome, of a Min­ those properties, are made by the ister of the Crown through the Gover­ elected Government, the Minister of the nor in Council. The Government is Crown, through his Cabinet, making a accountable to the people and, above recom'mendation. God help us if a sys­ all, many of the problems of heritage tem should ever a'rise in Australia and arise because owners of properties, al­ in this State where taxpayers' funds though they are willing to preserve are spent by bodies, no matter how those properties, sometimes find diffi­ well meaning, which are not elected, culty in coping financiaIIy with the which are not accountable to the people problem. Perhaps they have ample finan­ and which have no right or ability to cial reserves but they find it difficult to consider the State's financial position justify to themselves, to their families and determine priorities. or to their shareholders, if they are directors, the expenditure of funds, sav­ The thrust of the Opposition's de­ ings and reserves on the preservation structive debate in this case would be of buildings when that expenditure may to argue, Mr Speaker, that the school, not be in their own interest. the hospital, the road, the police sta­ tion or whatever it may be in the It is fundamental to successful heri­ electorate you represent, which the tage policies and to good government Treasurer of the State, under the West­ that there be a responsibility on a Min­ minster system, is responsible for ister of the Crown, subject to satis­ determining priorities and allocating factory investigation and report, to dis­ taxpayers' funds, should not be built cuss the matter with the Treasury to because a non-elected body responsible see whether some solution can be found for heritage had determined that a 4100 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY certain building must be preserved, AYES despite financial hardship, and had thus Mr Austin Mr McGrath imposed on the Treasury of this State Mr Balfour Mr McInnes an obligation to pay over some fund Mr Birrell Mr McKellar or compensation. That is the essence of the argument and it highlights the Mr Borthwick Mr Mackinnon fact that the Opposition, if given the Mr Brown Mr Maclellan opportunity of being on the Treasury Mr Burgin Mrs Patrick benches, would create havoc in this Mrs Chambers Mr Ramsay State. Mr Coleman Mr Reynolds Mr Collins Mr Richardson The Opposition would raid the Trea­ Mr Crellin Mr Ross-Edwards sury's coffers and the scorched earth policy to which the Leader of the Op­ Mr Ounstan Mr Skeggs position referred would in fact be its Mr Ebery Mr Smith policy. That scorched earth policy Mr Evans (South Barwon) would destroy the Treasury of Victoria. (Ballarat North) Mr Smith Mr Hann (Warrnambool) In opposing the amendment moved Mr Hayes Mr Tanner by the Opposition, I point out that the Mr Jasper Mr Templeton statements made about the provisional Mr Jona Mr Weideman register are totally inaccurate. Criticism Mr Kennett Mr Whiting was made of the fact that this Bill Mr Lacy Mr Williams Mr Lieberman Mr Wood reported some secret means of dealing Mr McArthur Tellers: with. property owners. Clause 15 (5) Mr McCance Mr Cox provIdes that an application regarding Mr McClure Mrs Sibree provisional registration shall be re­ ferred to the Preservation Council by NOES the. Minister for the council to report on It. Any agreement entered into shall Mr Cain Mr Remington also be a matter of public record and, Mr Cathie Mr Roper above all, it shall be published in the Or Coghill Mr Rowe Mr Crabb Mr Sidiropoulos Government Gazette. Mr Culpin Mr Simmonds By that short example, I think I Mr Edmunds Mr Simpson have illustrated the inaccuracy of the Mr Ernst Mr Spyker Opposition's criticism of the Bill and Mr Fogarty Mr Stirling the fact that it has not taken the Mr Fordham Mrs Toner Or Vaughan trouble to understand the Bill. It is un­ Mr Gavin Mr Ginifer Mr Walsh fortu?ate that the Opposition takes up Mr Hockley Mr Wilkes the tIme of this House with emotional Mr Jolly Mr Wilton debate designed to divide, confuse and Mr Kirkwood Tellers: cause concern to the people of Victoria Mr Mathews Miss Callister and makes inaccurate references to Mr Miller Mr King the Bill. The House divided on the question PAIR that the words proposed by Mr Cain to Mr Dixon Mr Trezise be omitted stand part of the motion (the Hon. S. J. Plowman in the chair). The House divided on the motion (the Hon. S. J. Plowman in the chair). Ayes 44 44 Noes 31 Ayes Noes 32 Majority against the amendment 13 Majority for the motion 12 Mr Lieberman 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4101 AYES former Premier was concerned with the Mr Austin Mr McGrath quality of life and those intangible issues Mr Balfour Mr Mclnnes Mr Birrell Mr McKellar which make Victoria a great State. Mr Borthwick Mr Mackinnon The Opposition is concerned with pre­ Mr Brown Mr Maclellan serving our heritage and with develop­ Mr Burgin Mrs Patrick ment, but not development at any cost, Mrs Chambers Mr Ramsay Mr Coleman Mr Reynolds which is one of the underlying tenets Mr Collins Mr Richardson of this Bill. Indeed, if Mr Hamer were Mr Crellin Mr Ross-Edwards still here this Bill would not have come Mr Ounstan Mr Skeggs into existence. It is a Bill that destroys, Mr Ebery Mr Smith Mr Evans (South Barwon) and it has been subject to a great deal (Ballarat North) Mr Smith of intense criticism by many people. Its Mr Hann (Warrnambool) title is false and misleading. Mr Hayes Mr Tanner Mr Jasper Mr Templeton The clause was agreed to, as was Mr Jona Mr Weideman clause 2. Mr Kennett Mr Whiting Mr .Lacy Mr Williams Clause 3 (Interpretations) Mr Lieberman Mr Wood Mr McArthur Tellers: Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition)­ Mr McCance Mr Cox I mention a suggestion made to the Mr McClure Mrs Sibree Opposition, and I presume to the Min­ NOES ister for Planning, that some considera;. Mr Cain Mr Roper tion ought to be given to widening the Mr Cathie Mr Rowe definition of "develop" to include Or Coghill Mr Sidiropoulos demolition. It has been put that that Mr Crabb Mr Simmonds would be in keeping with the present Mr Culpin Mr Simpson Mr Edmunds Mr Spyker planning legislation. That is my under­ Mr Ernst Mr Stirling standing. The Minister for Planning Mr Fogarty Mr Toner might comment. Mr Fordham Mr Trezise Mr Gavin Dr Vaughan Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ Mr Ginifer Mr Walsh Mr Hockley Mr Wilkes ning)-The Government considers that Mr JoJly Mr Wilton the definition as provided by the Mr Kirkwood eminent Parliamentary Counsel is Mr Mathews Tellers: adequate ·for the purposes of the Bill. Mr Miller Miss Callister Mr Remington Mr King Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I direct the The Bill was read a second time and attention of the Minister to the defini­ committed. tion of "building" which is very restric­ Clause 1 (Short title) tive. It refers to parts of buildings and work and objects associated with them. Mr MILLER (Prahran)-The title of I wonder why the Minister has not the Bill is "Historic Buildings Act included in the definition, for instance, 1981". This must represent one of the historical gardens, collections of furni­ worst examples of false, deceptive and ture associated with a building and misleading advertising perpetrated by post-European archaeological studies. the Government because an appropriate None of those things are specifically title for the Bill would be "Historic covered, yet it appears to be common Bundings Demolition Act 1981". When sense to cover those valuable matters one considers what the Bill does, one in legislation which specifically deals can see that it really does not preserve with the preservation of buildings of our architectural and historical heritage. architectural or historical significance. From what has been stated, we will find that many of our buildings will Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ be destroyed. ning)-The Government considers that This Bill would never have been this measure is specialized legislation introduced under the former Premier, dealing with building heritage and the but the present Premier is hell bent on definition of "building" is adequate for destroying our historical heritage. The those purposes. 4102 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

The clause was agreed to, as was Council. They can be removed at the clause 4. whim of the nominator and no cause Clause 5 (Constitution of council) would need to be shown. 1 merely repeat that a representative capacity Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ of this kind is a dangerous concept to ning) -I move: follow. The Minister for Planning Clause 5, page 5, line 18, omit "architectural". has said, by interjection, "What will The amendment was agreed to. I do?" I consider the Government should be urging or requiring some­ o Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition)­ On the clause, as amended, 1 wish to body to act as its nominee as an agent comment on the notional representative on the Government's authority. The nominees to the council. We seem to Government must have trust and faith have gone from twelve persons who in the person concerned and a general represent various groups or organiza­ provision should require that cause tions-- must be demonstrated for him or her to be removed. Mr Lacy-You are not objecting to the first one? Mr MILLER (Prahran)-Clause 5 Mr CAIN-J am not objecting to any causes real concern to me on a number of them, except to say that there is no of points. Firstly, on a conceptual good reason why the Director-General basis, it appears that the Minister had of Public Works-'- two option when he was setting up the council. He could have perpetuated the Honourable members interjecting. original council that was created under The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ the Historic Building Preservation Order! 1 remind honourable members Council and, as he has decided not to on the Government benches that they observe preservation in the State, he wiII have the opportunity of making has set up a new council. He had to contributions to this debate, if they initiate a new council. First of all, as a are as keen as they indicate by their matter of policy, he could have set disorderly interjections. up a panel of experts to advise him Mr CAIN--Government supporters on the matter and the latest ,develop­ interject, but make no real contribu­ ments in the area, to give independent, tions. I was suggesting that there is objective, impartial and expert views no good reason for the Director­ on matters that were of concern to General of Public Works to be on the the Minister. council. If the Labor Party's proposals A second model would have repre­ on public buildings had been adopted, sented a whole variety of interests and the authority and jurisdiction that this public opinion. In the case of' the first Bill has allowed would be justified. model, with only experts on the commit­ However, that is not the case and I tee, obviously the Minister is the person am interested to know what special who represents the broader public in­ qualifications the Director-General of terest and he would be advised in the Public Works, or a person nominated light of that expert advice. When one by him. has. That is the concern of considers the establishment of that sort non-public bodies that are specifically of model, one realizes that the Min­ excluded from the provisions of the ister's discretion should be broad­ Bill. ranging. However, when one considers I again raise the provisions of clause the type of Ministerial council that has 5 (6) and (9) which provide for the been set up as a cross-section council, removal, without cause, of the respec­ one realizes that the Minister's discre­ tive nominee by the Minister for the tion should be extremely limited, be­ Arts, who has referred to his desire cause the whole purpose of providing a to be involved in this matter, and the cross-section council is to provide for Director-General of Public Works, or wide representation and to legitimize the removal from office of any interest groups so that representations appointed member by the Governor in are made by several interested parties. 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4103

This Bill adds a number of other rep­ ways, as I have already indicated, and resentatives to the original cross­ it effectively negates the representative section of the Historic Building Pre­ value of this so-called cross-section servation Council. For instance, it in­ council that has been established. The cludes a religious denomination repre­ capacity for political decisions made on sentative. I ask the Minister whether representations directly to the Minis­ he could respond on clause 5 (1) (d) ter is much more likely. I also ask the (ix), which provides that one repre- Minister to advise the House why the sentative on the council shall be a per­ Director-General of Public Works, or son representing religious denomina­ the person nominated by him, will be tions. I wonder why that particular on this council, particularly as the Act special interest should be represented does not apply to Crown buildings. Why and, in particular, whether the Minister should the Director-General of Public could advise the House why that Works be on the council? specific interest group has been singled out for special consideration. If the The Minister for the Arts, indicated Minister turns to clause 26 (2) -- by way of interjection earlier, that clause 5 (1 ) (a) provides for a person The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ nominated by the Minister for the Order! I remind the honourable mem­ Arts. That is fine as that particular ber that the Committee is dealing with person happens to be an historian. clause 5. I heard the honourable mem­ Therefore, an historian is already on ber refer to another clause. the council, yet no explanation is pro­ vided by the Minister in clause 5 (1) Mr MILLER-I am referring to clause (d) (viii) why another historian should 5 (1) (d) (ix). If the Minister turns to clause 26 he will note that the provisions also be on the c~unci1. Why is it that the relating to permits will not apply to Government wants to remove probably any alterations to the interior of a the most qualified person· with the most church for liturgical purposes. Why is expertise in the area of preserving that appointment made if clause 26 historic buildings, who is an architec­ excludes registered historic buildings tural historian, not just a common gar­ on land in the provision in sub-clause den variety historian? Why should an (2) so that the measure shall not apply architectural historian be removed from to any alteration to the interior of a this panel? There mus,t be some motive. church for liturgical purposes and other Why is it that an architectural his­ particular amendments that the Min­ torian is being removed and another ister will subsequently introduce? Why historian, the person nominated by the is it, if church lands are to be ex­ Minister for the Arts, is being cluded from that provision, that a rep­ appointed? resentative of a religious denomination is added to the list of persons on the Mrs Toner-Have they got something Historic Buildings Council? in mind? I am impressed by the Minister's Mr MILLER-I take up the inter­ ability to select one person to repre­ jection of the honourable member for ;sent religious denominations in Vic­ Greensborough. I would like to find out toria. It is a remarkable exercise in from the Minister what the notion is ,ecumenical discretion to be able to because the composition and constitu­ select only one person. I will be inter­ tion of the council is extremely import­ ested in hearing who that person is, in ant. Obviously, the work of architec­ what particular capacity he is experi­ tural historians in this field is of enced and which religious denomination criticial importance. Their professional he specifically represents. training and background is designed to assist in understanding the architec­ Clause 5 also indicates a remarkable tural significance and historic work of -emphasis on Ministerial discretion. That particular buildings. I t also enables has been enhanced in a number of them to determine whether the sig- 4104 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY nificance of a particular building merits not included as representatives. There preservation, restoration .and protec­ would be many fine people and fine tion. The Government, without explana­ bodies in the State who, it could be tion, dilutes and emasculates the argued, could adorn and con tribute sub­ proposed legislation further without one stantially to the work of the new word of advice or information to the council. I do not in any way want the public at large. Government to be taken as rejecting the proposition that the presence of I ask the Minister to tell us his rea­ any of these persons or nominees of sons and to come clean; give some groups would be a good thing, but explanation of why he is emasculating clause 5 provides for wide represen­ this council and why the word "Preser­ tation, and in the Government's view vation" has been deleted from the Bill. it is adequate. Is the Minister serious? Is he genuine about encouraging preservation in I draw the notice of the honourable Victoria? member for Prahran, with your per­ mission, Mr Chairman, to clause 56 The Minister should be ashamed of and refer him to the abili ty of the this Bill. He says by interjection that Minister to establish committees giving he is proud of it, but this must be one advice on particular matters as the of the worst pieces of legislation that Minister refers to them. I foresee that he has ever brought into this Chamber. Ministers of today and the future will Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ avail themselves of that clause and ning) -A number of questions have bring together any additional expertise been raised by Opposition speakers. that may complement the work of the One of them relates to the purpose of Government and the council. including on the council, which con­ The honourable member for Prahran sists of twelve members, the Director­ questioned the presence on the council General of Public Works or a person of a person representing religious nominated by him. This is provided for denomina tions in Victoria. I t is well in clause. 5. known that about 25 per cent of the historic buildings .in Victoria are owned Honourable members would realize by the churches of this State. The Gov­ that the Director-General of Public ernment makes no apology for including Work,s and his personnel are respon­ a representative of the churches and ible for the care and maintenance of religious denominations on the council. public works in this State. It is well It is appropriate and it enables them known that Victoria is fortunate in to put forward a point of view. The having some of the finest public build­ churches in Australia have ·probably ings in the world. Parliament House is had more experience than any other regarded as one of the finest legislative single organization, certainly in this buildings in the world. The Director­ nation, in the care and preservation of General of Public Works and his staff historic buildings. It follows as a matter assist the Speaker in maintaining this of logic that representation from such House in the splendid condition in a group would be invaluable. which it is now. The director-general The honourable member asked on and his staff have a tremendous amount what infinite wisdom I will draw to of expertise and the Government be­ select the representative of the religious lieves that the presence of that person denominations in Victoria. The answer or his nominee and the expertise pro­ is simple and it works quite wel". vided by that person through years of experience will be invaluable in tack­ Mr Miller-Divine inspiration! ling .the questions of heritage. Mr LIEBERMAN-One can say that The honourable member for Prahran as well, but it is simply a matter of asked why other classifications of per­ asking representatives of all the sons could not be represented or were churches to meet, as they have done on 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4105

several occasions, on matters of inter­ articulated by the Minister for the est and public concern, and to nomin­ abolition of this council, which has ate to me a person whom they would served with distinction since 1974. prefer to represent the religious Under the 1974 Act a number of ex­ denominations in Victoria. I have perts served on the Historic Buildings already received an indication from the Preservation Council and formed a religious denominations that they will classification sub-committee which have no difficulty in appointing a person under the then existing legislation was to represent them under clause 5 (1) given a brief to identify buildings which (d) (ix). I believe my comments en­ should be added to the register on the compass and adequately explain the basis of their architectural or historic matters raised. importance. This Bill not only abolishes the Historic Buildings Preservation The final question raised by the hon­ Council, but it also abolishes the ourable member for Prahran was why classification sub-committee and does an historian is to be included. The a number of other things. answer is simple. The Royal Historical Society of Victoria, which is a group I should like to know why the Min­ for which I have a high regard, as has ister is hell bent on not only removing also, I am sure, the honourable mem­ the symbolic importance of the term ber for Prahran, has been good enough "Preservation" from the title but also to give me advice as Minister that an on abolishing the Historic Buildings historian would be of enormous assist­ Preserva tion Council. ance. Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ Mr Miller-You have one already. ning) -The Historic Buildings Preser­ vation Council is being replaced by a Mr LIEBERMAN-The representative very able body, the Historic Buildings of the Minister for the Arts referred Council, which will be made up of to by the honourable member for twelve members. The Bill is clear in Prahran is not necessarily always an that respect. Representation on the historian. I also point out that under new council will be broader and is clause 5 (1) (d) (Hi) the representation of an architect will be guaranteed, and probably likely to be of more substan­ shall be selected from a panel of three tial assistance to the State, the Gov­ names submitted by the Royal Aus­ ernment and the people of Victoria tralian Institute of Architects (Vic­ than the provision in the existing Bill torian Chapter). which, as I said earlier in the second­ reading debate, has stood the test of I have made careful inquiry and I seven or eight years of trial. It is 'understand that there are eminent appropriate that a change should architects in this State, members of the occur. Royal Australian Institute of Archi­ tects, who can also claim to be eminent In my discussions with Mr Lonie, to architectural historians. I look forward whom the Leader of the Opposition to the submission of the panel from the referred in the second-reading debate, Royal Australian Institute of Architects, I found that many elements of the new which will undoubtedly contain the legislation are supported by him. He names of persons who have the neces­ has some qualifications, and it is only sary qualifications and background. appropriate that he should express The clause, as amended, was agreed those, but he has indicated that he to. believes the Bill as it now stands has substantial merit in many respects. Clause 6 (Transitional) Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition)­ Mr MILLER (Prahran)-In this Bill I make the point that the Minister is one sees the proposed aboli tion of the continually avoiding answering the Historic Buildings Preservation Council. question: "Why is there to be a change Once again, no reasons have been in terminology? ·4106 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

Mr Liebennan-It is a better name. Why not those buildings of interest? An examination of the August draft Mr CAIN-How is it better that a which was submitted shows that build­ council which is concerned about the ings of interest were included for preservation of historic buildings loses possible registration. This expanded the word "Preservation" frc·m its title? the 1974 Act which catered for build­ I am curious to know why that should ings of importance only. One may have be deleted, and that has not been quite a significant architectural or answered. The Minister ought to indi­ historic building which is in a street of cate why the name has been changed. significance. Obviously the council Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ would take into account such matters ning)-It is a far better name. as streetscapes. It also significantly reduces the protection that the Council Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I pursue the can give to buildings. point because it is critical to the whole Bill. The Opposition has asked the Many buildings, which could have Minister why a change of name oc­ been protected under sections 8 and 8B cUfll"ed. The Minister has blithely stated of the Town and Country Planning Act, that it is appropriate that a change are not included in planning schemes should occur. Why? What ios the fault, because of the fear of compensation. and where is the vice? What has the The brief of the council is to cover Historic Buildings Preservation Council buildings which may be of local in­ done to deserve the opprobrium heaped terest. There are many buildings within on it. The Minister has not given an this category, especially in the area that answer. Does he want to be served with I represent. These buildings may be a notice for further and better particu­ wooden single-storey constructions but lars because that seems to be the only they often fit beautifully into a fragile way to get a response? streetscape. The reaction of honourable The clause was agreed to, as were members opposite shows what Philis­ clauses 7 and 8. tines they are! Clause 9 (Functions. of Council) Honourable members opposite have no comprehension of the quality and Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ the fragility of the internal streetscape ning) ---,1 move: of many of Melbourne's inner-urban Clause 9, line 36, omit "or interest". areas. Obviously if one deletes from the Mr MILLER (Prahran)-Can the Min­ brief of the council, the power to cover ister advise why the words "or interest" buildings of local interest or interest as are to be deleted from this clause? It is part of a streetscape, one deletes its of significance, because those words power to advise on the wider planning are to be deleted in seven other parts processes. of the Bill together witn a deletion from The planning aspect is critical and of the long title. It would appear that this concern. This is reinforced in sub-clause fundamentally reduces the scope of the (2) where the council power in town Bill. The powers, duties and functions planning matters remains strictly of the Council will also be restricted by limited. Once again the powers of the the deletion of the words "or interest". council are restricted and reduced by There is no doubt about that. deleting these words without any ex­ Honourable members interjecting. planation whatsoever. Honourable Mr MILLER-If honourable members members may not think these buildings hear me out they will discover why. are interesting because they are all of The Bill provides: the same type. However, honourable members would be aware that hundreds The functions of the Council shall be­ of fascinating buildings exist in Mel­ (a)' to recommend to the Minister- bourne which individually may not (i) the buildings of architectural or possess fundamental architectural or historic importance or interest which it considers should be added to the historical significance for any members register; of the community except for those who 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4107 live in the street or in that area. it in the clause. Can the Minister explain The Opposition believes the planning why he is taking it up himself to abolish dimensions must be taken into account. it? Obviously the Minister is hell-bent on developing at any cost and is removing Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ the planning dimension from the juris­ ning) -Clause 10 enables a committee diction of the council. of not less than three members to be appointed and under section 7 of the Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ Historic Buildings Act, provision is ning) -It is obvious that the Opposi­ made for a committee called a classi­ tion is lamenting the passing of the fication committee which may consist existing Historic Buildings Act. It fol­ of seven people with a quorum of three. lows from that that members of the Opposition must support generally the It is intended that the council shall principles of the Historic Buildings Act. refer matters to the committees it forms but the Government believes that Mr Cain-With some additions. the vi tal questions of recommendations affecting property owners and the Mr LIEBERMAN-Jt is therefore future heritage of Australia should be important that I should draw the matters for consideration by the pres­ attention of the honourable member ervation council which has full re­ for Prahran to the fact that the words sponsibility. "or interest" are not included in the existing law. Section 10 of the Historic The clause was agreed to. Buildings Act uses much the same language as the language that I am Clause 11 (Delegation) proposing in the amendment. It was Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ submitted to me that the words "or ning)-I move: interest" are incapable of objective assessment and the expression "archi­ Clause 11, line 40, omit "and 19" and insert tectural or historic importance" is "19, 35 and 36". much more appropriate and adequate The amendment was agreed to, and for the, intended purposes of the Bill. the clause, as amended, was adopted, Because of the scope of the proposed as were clauses 12 and 13. legislation, additions to the register should be confined to those buildings Clause 14 (Register) which go across the threshhold of im­ Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition)­ portance because of the nature of the Sub-clause (2) sets out that the register provisions that apply to registered shall specify the buildings other than buildings. Government buildings that will be dealt The amendment was agreed to, and with by the measure. The Labor Party the clause, as amended, was adopted. strongly states that all buildings should be included on the same register. This Clause 10 (Committees) would ensure that no building could escape registration by avoiding cate­ Mr MILLER (Prahran)-One of the gorization in either classification. That interesting aspects of this clause is that is what can and does happen today. it abolishes the classification "sub-com­ mittee" which was formed under the I do not know why the distinction is former Historic Buildings Preservation made. It is not a distinction that has Council. The committee had a very any appeal for the Commonwealth, be­ important brief of identifying buildings cause it treats all buildings in the same which should be added to the register way. That is the only reasonable way on the basis of their architectural to deal with the matter, and one set or historic importance. Certainly the of criteria should apply. If 'a building is word "interest" did not appear; never­ worth preserving for the reasons set theless it had a most important brief. out in the Act, it is worth doing so However, that sub-committee has been whether it is a private or a public abolished and no reference is made to building. 4108 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I support the NOES Leader of the Opposition because there Mr Cain Mr Miller is no good reason why such a distinc­ Miss Callister Mr Remington Mr Cathie Mr Roper tion should be drawn between public Or Coghill Mr Rowe and private buildings. I also seek an Mr Crabb Mr Sidiropoulos undertaking from the Minister that all Mr Culpin Mr Simmonds buildings currently on the register un­ Mr Ounstan Mr Simpson Mr Edmunds Mr Spyker der the Historic Buildings Act 1974 Mr Emst Mr Stirling will be proposed by the Minister to Mr Fogarty Mrs Toner the Governor in Council for gazettal Mr Fordham Mr Trezise on the new register. Mr Gavin Mr Walsh Mr Ginifer Mr Wilkes The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ Mr Hockley Mr Wilton Order! The time for me to report pro­ Mr Jolly Tellers: Mr Kirkwood Mr King gress under Sessional Orders has Mr Mathews Or Vaughan arrived. Progress was reported. The motion was agreed to. Mr DUNSTAN (Dromana)-I suggest The House went into Committee for that the House do now adjourn. We the further consideration of this Bill. have been sitting for twelve hours. Discussion was resumed of clause 14 The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ (Register) man)-The time appointed by Sessional Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I ask the Orders for me to interrupt business has Minister for Planning to give a now arrived. guarantee that all buildings currently Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ on the register under the Historic ning)-I move: Buildings Act 1974 be published in the .Government Gazette. Otherwise the That the sitting be continued. present buildings on the register could The House divided on the motion (the be removed and the benefit of the 1974 Hon. S. J. Plowman in the chair) . Act deleted completely. Ayes 44 Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ ning) -At my special request, ·because Noes .. 33 of the importance of the issue, clause 14 (3) has been included. The register Majority for the motion 11 shall consist of historic buildings as constituted immediately prior to the AYES proclamation of this Bill. In addition to Mr Austin Mr McGrath that legislative provision, I am delighted Mr Balfour Mr McInnes to confirm that, while I am Minister for Mr Birrell Mr McKellar Planning, the register will be under the Mr Borthwick Mr Mackinnon Mr Brown Mr Maclellan umbrella· of the new council and myself Mr Burgin Mrs Patrick as Minister and will retain the same Mrs Chambers Mr Ramsay provisions that existed on the midnight Mr Coleman Mr Reynolds preceding the proclamation of the Bill. Mr Collins Mr Richardson Mr Crellin Mr Ross-Edwards The clause was agreed to. Mr Ebery Mr Skeggs Mr Evans Mr Smith Clause 15 (Provisional register) (Ballarat North) (South Barwon) Mr Evans Mr Smith Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) (Gippsland East) ( Warrnambool) -Clause 15 deals with the provisional Mr Hann Mr Tanner register. It is a bad provision which Mr Hayes Mr Templeton sets up a process whereby the evalua­ Mr Jasper Mr Weideman Mr Jona Mr Whiting tion and identification by the Historic Mr Kennett Mr Williams Buildings Council, which is clearly set Mr Lacy Mr Wood out in the Act, is avoided. The building Mr Liebennan is placed on the register under the pro­ Mr McArthur Tellers: Mr McCance Mr Cox visions of clause 15 by agreement be­ Mr McClure Mrs Sibree tween the owner and the Minister for 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4109 Planning. The arrangement is controll­ The Opposition thoroughly rejects ed and administered by the Minister and the whole concept of the provisional not by the council. So far as I can see, register which cuts across the well­ there is no review procedure. That entrenched notion of assessment and means that an owner who has access to declaration and categorization by an the Minister, for whatever reason, can individual process free and untainted escape the provisions that would other­ from any political input. wise apply or could avoid his building The process proposed is bad and en­ being placed on the register. The in­ courages all sorts of back-room deals clusion of the building on the register that are undesirable. No Minister should may well be in the interests of the com­ be put in a position of being subject to munity. Under sub-clause (3) the owner that sort of pressure. simply applies to get his building in­ cluded on the provisional register and Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I shal11ist the in that way circumvents the due process Opposition's grounds for objection. If of the Act. one examines sub-clause (2) the pro­ I cannot follow sub-clause (4) (c) visional register, which is prescribed which provides a qualification whereby, in sub-clause (1), shall consist of any before the Minister includes a building building other than a Government build­ on the provisional register he shall re­ ing. Obviously the number of buildings quire the owner to enter into an agree­ covered is enormous. It is an inadequate ment with him under seal under which principle that the sort of buildings that the owner covenants to properly pre­ can be placed on the provisional register serve, maintain and care for the build­ are not checked by any authority. ing on the land. I am not clear what The main purpose of this provision that means. It is impossible of defi­ is to reduce the cost to owners of mak­ nition. Some repairs to old buildings ing submissions to the Historic Build­ may well do harm from the point of ings Council. It is also designed to view of their being preserved as historic avoid the costs to owners of making buildings. It is a conglomeration of submissions to avoid designation. It words that really means nothing in is obviously a compromise. The provi­ terms of historic buildings. sional register enables owners to short­ Sub-clause (5) provides that: circuit the designation procedures. There is no check on the quality of a building Before any agreement is submitted by the Minister to the owner, he shall obtain a report which could be put on the provisional from the Council on the proposed agreement register. and he shaH take into account any matters raised in the report of the Council in relation What we have seen in other States­ to the proposed agreement. for instance New South Wales-is a Presumably the words, "he shall take provision whereby buildings that fit the into account" means the Minister for architectural or historic significance re­ Planning. That should be made clear. quirements are placed on the National All the provision requires is that he Estate Register. Why should not the "take into account" . He may ignore­ provisional register be adapted to pro­ there is no requirement that he be direct­ vide an interim register so that buildings ed by the information he is given. could be placed on that list and notice is given to the council of proposed de­ Again in sub-clause (9), which states: molition or substantial alteration? That No examination pursuant to section 18 shall is what happens in New South Wales. be made of a building which is on the pro­ visional register except pursuant to the pro­ An interim list would act as an early visions of the last preceding sub-section. warning device to owners, developers That provision enables the due process and responsible authorities. of the Act to be avoided. The provision­ Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for al register is controlled and administered Planning) -The provisions contained in by the Minister and, so far as I can see, clause 15 have attracted criticism from is not policed by anybody and is not re­ members of the Opposition and the com­ viewable in any way. munity. The purposes of entrenching 411 0 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY the provisional register in this measure Unfortunately, in some cases, the is not for a single purpose: It is not hearings have resulted in an adversary to allow back-room deals or to put a atmosphere and have been expensive Minister in an invidious position. If I because people have felt under seige may briefly highlight some aspects of it and considered legal representation by clearly demonstrates that even if there practitioners specializing in that area existed a Minister who wanted to make necessary and to call evidence from a back-room deal, he could not, simply architects and other persons so that it because sub-clause (5) provides that: has become a heavy burden-rightly or Before any agreement is submitted by the wrongly. Minister to the owner he shall obtain a report from the Council on the proposed agreement The intention of the Government is to and he shall take into account ·any matters provide a mechanism whereby the raised in the report of the Council in relation owner not wanting to alter, demolish, to the proposed agreement. sell or dispose of his property can have That would bring the matter to the it placed on the provisional register notice of that representative group of where it is protected by the force of twelve people and would create atten­ law and the consequences of a breach tion in the community. No one could are serious and substantial, and that argue against that condition. The Mini­ allows the owner to adjust to the ster has to take into account matters situation. raised in the report of the council in re­ lation to the agreement. Sub-clause (6) I envisage and shall try during the provides that a copy of any agreement, period the building is on th~ pro­ once executed, is to be forwarded to visional register to bring the parties to­ the council, so once again the Historic gether-the owner, the staff of the new Buildings Council is made aware of the Historic Buildings Council and well agreement and its terms. The Minister meaning people interested in heritage­ is also required under the law to pub­ to determine whether the apprehension of the owner can be overcome and per­ lish the fact of the agreement and the haps to arrive at a solution. A round­ provisional registration in the Gov2rn~ ment Gazette, which 'brings it adequ­ table-conference concept is one that I hope will flow from the Bill. It may not ately to the notice of the community. work and, if not, I do not mind coming In fairness, that puts paid to any sug­ back to Parliament and saying that it gestion that the Minister will involve has not worked. It is worth trying to himself in some arrangement for which get owner and community confidence he will not be judged and which will not in the dialogue that can flow in a peace­ be made public. ful atmosphere for the preservation of Clause 15 contains innovative provi­ buildings. sions and is worthy of trial. If it does not have the desired affect, I will be I also point out that if the Minister happy to consider amendments with the or the owner wish to terminate the pro­ passage of time and experience. visional arrangement they give notice to each other and that automatically Over the past seven or eight years, brings the matter before the council for we have found that there is apprehen­ examination under clause 18, and that sion, in ~any cases not well based, by is not a bad mechanism because the full some owners about the prospects of examination can take place that the facing a hearing as to whether their honourable member for Prahran would building will be placed on the register. obviously prefer to occur immediately. I can give honourable members many I am proposing a means of deferring it, examples of that fact privately because during which time I think a lot of good I do not want to convey details)f the persons concerned. I can say that there can flow. have been a number of cases of appre­ In addition, the clause goes on to pro­ hension' and concern at the prospect of vide that an owner who fails to comply facing such a hearing, no matter how with the agreement is guilty of an well conducted. offence and there are substantial penal- Mr Lieberman 2 December 1981 ] Historic Buildings Bill 4111

ties in the Bill, as honourable members intended to occur but it has, and I am know. Further, under clause 12, where willing to try this mechanism to bring there is a breach of the agreement and the parties together. I commend it to: the owner lets the Minister and the honourable members and ask them to people of Victoria down, the Minister give it a try. If it does not work, further is obliged to recommend to the amendments can be made. Governor in Council that the building be added to the register. The Committee divided on the clause (Mr A. T. Evans in the chair), In all those circumstances, added to clause 13-that is, what happens if Ayes 44 there is alteration or demolition-there Noes .. 31 is adequate protection for the building. I hope the provisions of the clause help. I believe they will and I have confidence Majority for the clause 13 in the mechanism. AYES I have been able to sit down with Mr Austin Mr McClure members of the Historic Buildings Pre­ Mr Balfour Mr McGrath Mr Birrell Mr McInnes servation Council, owners, members of Mr Borthwick Mr McKellar my department and members of the Mr Brown Mr Mackinnon National Trust of Victoria with some Mr Burgin Mr Maclellan success in the past few months to re­ Mrs Chambers MrsPatrick Mr Coleman Mr Ramsay solve matters and, with that team Mr Collins Mr Reynolds assisting me, I have been able to bring Mr Cox Mr Richardson to a happy conclusion some of the Mr Crellin Mr Ross-Edwards vexed problems that have haur +ed the Mr Ounstan Mr Skeggs Mr Ebery Mr Smith city for y~ars. Some buildings have been Mr Evans (South Barwon) the subject of bitter contests and dis­ (Gippsland East) Mr Smith puted actions in the Supreme Court and Mr Hann ( Warrnambool) I have been able to bring the parties to­ Mr Hayes Mr Templeton Mr Jasper Mr Weideman gether and reach a solution. Mr Jona Mr Whiting Mr Kennett Mr Williams I am looking forward to the success Mr Lacy Mr Wood of the buildings on the corner of Collins Mr Lieberman Tellers: and Spring Streets being restored to the Mr McArthur Mrs Sibree satisfaction of most people, with the Mr McCance Mr Tanner new development that is occurring and, as honourable members know, it NOES appears now that there is a break­ Mr Cain Mr Miller through at long last on the Rialto Mr Cathie Mr Remington Or Coghill Mr Roper building. Mr Crabb Mr Rowe Mr Culpin Mr Sidiropoulos This is being achieved not only with Mr Edmunds Mr Simmonds the assistance of the Historic Buildings Mr Emst Mr Simpson Preservation Council-which has done Mr Fogarty Mr Spyker a tremendous .lob and I pay tribute to Mr Fordham Mr Stirling Mr Gavin Mrs Toner that body for its help in sitting around Mr Ginifer Mr Walsh the table working at the problem-but Mr Hockley Mr Wilkes also with magnificent team work. I Mr Jolly Mr Wilton make no apology for participating in Mr King Tellers: Mr Kirkwood Miss Callister those discussions and trying to bring Mr Mathews Or Vaughan those parties together. PAIR The team has worked hard, with a measure of success, and that is a far Mr Dixon Mr Tresize better way of achieving preservation of Clauses 16 and 17 were agreed to, important buildings in the State rather than the adversary atmosphere which Clause 18 (CouncH to -make examina­ regrettably has occurred. It. was not tion and recommendation to Minister) 4112 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ This sub-clause raises some real prob­ ning) -I move: lems and it is submitted that what this Clause 18, page 14, line 15, omit "or in­ Bill does is to confuse'the identification terest". process of those buildings which should be identified as being worthy of preser­ The amendment was agreed to. vation and protection because of their Mr MILLER (Prahran)-Clause IS, architectural or historic significance. On as amended, raises a number of specific the preservation aspect, it is not known problems. The fi·rst is one which 1 have whether it is meant that financial assis­ already touched on whereby ordinary tance will be provided to owners, persons previously could apply to have whether there will be some form of tax­ a building put on the register, but that ation concessions given to owners or democratic right has been removed by whether a more rational approach will this measure. During the second-reading be adopted because the financial burden debate this aspect wasadverted to at should be spread either across the com­ considerable length. munity or only borne by the owner. Just as importantly, there is real con­ It is also significant that the demand cern with clause IS (2), and 1 draw the for preservation is evaluated only at attention of the Minister to this sub­ the time when some threat to preserva­ clause because it must represent one of tion exists. A threat does not occur at the most capriciously drafted clauses in any given time and if there are 600-odd this proposed legislation. It provides: buildings on the register in anyone given year, it is more likely that a Where the Council proposes to make an ex­ amination pursuant to sub-section (1) it shall threat occurs in the commercial life of notify the owner of the building concerned of a building and that could be over a its intention and shall give notice of the part period of 30 to 40 years. It is obvious or parts of the building and land in respect that we need to take into account the of which it proposes to make its examination. commercial life of a building. This could If the council has not already carried be done at any given time and it is ob­ out an examination, how can it possibly vious that the introduction of economic give notice to a landowner about which factors as contained in clause IS-the parts of the building it proposes to make economic and hardship factors-will an examination of? How can the coun­ have to be submitted to the Minister. cil know, which parts of a building are There will be a plethora of applications, necessary to be examined? The mea­ but they will not go to the Minister but sure contains all sorts of internal in­ to the council which will have to consistencies, but 1 'suggest that this is evaluate the submission when consider­ one which the Minister should take ing additions to the register of buildings away and examine again because it which should be designated as being simply is not possible, as the sub-clause worthy of preservation and protection. It may be that extensive costs will be is phrased,' to make any real sense of incurred on many of the buildings be­ this measure. cause of economic circumstances. When one turns to clause IS (7), one Obviously the opportunity for ad­ finds again an area of real concern. That ministrative overload and political inter­ sub-clause provides: ference and influence will be sub­ In making an examination the Council shall stan tially magnified. consider whether the building is of such archi­ Those are two of the major criticisms tectural or historic importance . . . . that the Opposition has of the Bill and The words "or interest" once again what the Minister should have done have been deleted- with this Bill, with respect, is to have . . . as to warrant preservation of the build­ been able to separate the two important ing and may at that time (and shall in the aspects of the Bill. The first is the event of a request under sub-section (8» con­ identification process whereby particu­ sider whether- lar buildings are identified as being (a) preservation of the building is econom­ worthy of being placed on the register ically feasible. and the second is the preservation 2 December 1981 ] Historic Buildings Bill 4113 aspect. Both are very necessary and im­ be from the National Trust and will portant if we are to preserve buildings detail features of the building, pointing which are of architectural and historic out the architectural features which importance. will perhaps be the outside of the build­ When one considers that we have ing or a staircase, and it would be up little history in Australia and so few to the council to use prudence and good buildings put on the register, it is im­ judgment in deciding whether the in­ portant that some attention be given to itiatives under sub-clause (2) pay par­ this aspect. ticular attention to parts or whether the Mr DUNSTAN (Dromana)-On a inquiry of the council should encom­ point of order, Mr Chairman, I am sure pass the whole fabric and the interior that the honourable member for Prahran and give a report at the end which per­ will appreciate the point I am making haps excludes the interior. but would the honourable member be The matter of economics has caused prepared to table the notes from which some concern. When considering the he is quoting. economics of the building alone for its Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I would be architectural or historic worth, it is delighted to do so. Most of the notes important to establish particularly happen to be commentaries that I have whether the owner wants the feasibility made on the Bill. I should be delighted of economic preservation. That issue to table these commentaries I have should be faced and not swept under the made and I should also be delighted to carpet. The economics are removed have the comments, which I have put from the building's historic value but down in clause form, made available. they are inseparable from the decision Mr Whiting-They could be put in about its preservation. In any event. the archives! the Government needs to know the economic potential or shortcomings, to Mr MILLER-If they are preserved apply the various incentives provided in the archives, I hope they would be retained and enshrined or encapsulated in the BUI. for all time. What is important, if I can Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) go back to my original statement, is -The Opposition opposes this clause. that Australia both at the national and It is perhaps the heart of the Bill. It is State levels does not cater enough for a significant shift away from preserva­ the preservation of our historic build­ tion that the present Act contains and ings. We should be moving towards the represents a move towards economic tradition which is adopted in the United consideration. Firstly, clause 18 (1) re­ States of America of providing moves the right of "any person" to ap­ additional tax relief for the owners of ply to have a building added to the re­ these buildings. Buildings which, in the gister. That right now exists under sec­ opinion of the Australian Heritage Com­ tion 11 (1) of the principal Act. Any mission and other organizations, are person concerned about an historic worthy of preservation should receive building can apply to have it considered. some tax relief which should be given That right no longer exists. Clause 18 to the owners of these buildings so that provides that the bodies or persons the community at large which wishes to which can take the initiative are the preserve the buildings can also have an council of its own motion; the National input. Trust of Australia (Victoria); the owner; Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for or it can be done at the direction of the Planning) -On the comment by the hon­ Minister. All that "any person" can do ourable member for Prahran about the is contained in clause 18 (4). In a pre­ ability of the council to know in ad­ scribed form he may make a request to vance what part of the building it will the Minister to direct the council to examine, I suggest the council will have make an examination pursuant to sub­ basic knowledge of the building from section (1). Therefore, he .must get the pre-examination and from reports of the ear of the Minister and convince the staff. In many cases the application will Minister that it is a matter proper for 4114 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

consideration by the council. This again The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ removes the participatory role of the Order! There is no point of order but I citizen who expresses concern and am sure most honourable members will wants to exercise the rights that exist accede to the wishes of the honourable under the present Act. member for Dromana. Clause 18 (3) excludes the council Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) from doing its job. It says that the -Clause 18 (7) demonstrates how the council shall not make an examination Government has been influenced by in respect of any building which is sub­ sectional economic interests in relation ject to an application to the Minister to this Bill. In deciding whether a build­ pursuant to section 15 unless the Mini­ ing is of architectural or historic im­ ster otherwise directs. Again it makes portance or interest economic consider­ the council subservient to the Minister. ations are of no importance. If that is It seems that under clause 18 (5) the to be the test, there can be no qualifica­ Minister can please himself as to tion of an economic kind. To impose whether he directs the council to make the provision of clause 18 (7) is to con­ an examination. taminate the whole of the examination Mr DUNSTAN (Dromana)-I raise a process that the council is required point of order. There is so much noise under the Act to undertake. The whole on the front bench of the Opposition of that provision places the owner first that I cannot hear what I would like so far as economic import'ance is con­ to hear on this most important Bill. cerned, and the community second. It I cannot hear what the Leader of the is an absolute negation of any genuine Opposition is saying. Will you, Mr atte'mpt to fulfil the functions designated Chairman, rule that the honourable to the council under clause 9. member for Niddrie shut up? Clause 18 (6) precludes the council The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ from making a recommendation unless There is nO point of order. 'I am sure it is satisfied in effect that the use of the honourable member for Niddrie and the land is economically feasible. Again other honourable members will be it reports to the Minister and again the pleased to co-operate with the honour­ economic considerations are paramount. able member for Dromana. I presume that in considering this pro­ vision, what is set out in clause 47 (1) Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) and clause 51 (2) which provide for ,-As I understand clause 18 (5), the preservation or restoration assistance Minister is required to notify the coun­ are to be taken into account because the cil if he decides not to require an ex­ clauses seem to apply to buildings that amination, but he can deny "any person" are registered. the status of being a party and to that It is not possible to state what "eco­ extent it removes community participa­ nomic" means in the context of this tion. provision. It is surely influenced by The provisions of clause 18 (7) in­ proposed developments. One form of troduce an economic consideration and development that an owner might re­ the criteria are ~et out. This is a gard as essential and economic might thoroughly' bad provision which dis.;. not be considered to be so by another closes how the Government has been owner. This may occur in relation to dominated on this issue. buildings which are opposite or adjacent Mr DUNSTAN (Dromana)-I raise a to each other. The provision is bad in point of order. I am trying to listen to principle but will be impossible in ap­ the Leader of the Opposition but there plication. is so much conversation between the Clause 18 (9) (c) provides that, in honourable member for Prahran and the making a recommendation to the Min­ honourable member for Albert Park that ister, the council shall report on I am unable to do so. Mr Chairman, whether the whole of the building should will you rule so that I can hear the be included on the register or whether Leader of the Opposition? a structure works or object or any part 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4115 thereof or appurtenances to the building of this debate Government buildings, should be included on the register. It Crown buildings and Crown land do not is hard to understand how the council relate to the Bill. can make a recommendation about any The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ buildings without its economic factors Order! I cannot uphold the point of being dominant. If the owner sets out order. Although the Bill does not to demonstrate that he will suffer fin­ specifically mention Government build­ ancial hardship, that will be the domin­ ings, the honourable member for Albert ant consideration and there is no way, Park is intimating that it should. ha ving regard to that consequence, that these provisions of clause 18 can remain Mr WALSH (Albert Park)-Thank in a Bill that makes any pretensions you, Mr Chairman. That is the point I about identifying and preserving historic am trying to raise. The situation of buildings. Crown land should be included in clause 18 because, as I said, I am concerned In summary, the provisions of clause about the building which is on Crown 18, in effect, run counter and contrary land, who examines it and who makes to the spirit of any legislation that is the decision. I am trying to find out concerned about the preservation of his­ whether it will come under the classi­ toric buildings. The two considerations fication of an historical park or build­ are not compatible and cannot sit ing. The situation relates to the Port happily side by side. If it is desirable Melbourne station. I encountered a to preserve an historic building, the problem about eighteen months ago economic considerations ought not to when the Government was trying to pull enter into that judgment. That is what down the verandah which was the clause 18 seeks to do and the Opposi­ original verandah of that railway station tion opposes that provision. and had been there since the inception Mr WALSH (Albert Park)-I make of railway land. It was the first rail­ some criticism of clause 18 of the Bill way station in Victoria and is more than because I am concerned about a building 126 years old. in the electorate that I represent that is I want to know who would examine on Crown land. I want to know who that building and who would intervene will make-- and put it on the list to ensure that it remained as an historical building or Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for park in the area. I am sure that it is not Planning) -On a point of order, I am explained in clause 18. Apparently, the sure honourable members would like to council has no right under the clause listen to the honourable member an­ to examine Crown land. The Bill simply other time, but this Bill does not relate mentions buildings that are examined on to buildings on Crown land, therefore, applications by people. If the Govern­ the comments do not relate to clause ment puts in an application for a build­ 18, unless I have missed the point of ing, will the council determine that the the honourable member's comments. building should be on the list? These Mr WALSH (Albert Park)-On the are questions that I would like the point of order, I am trying to establish Minister to answer to ensure that those who examines the operation of, the sort of buildings in the area that I re­ building, who will make the decision, present and other areas are retained. who will intervene and what sorts of Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ decisions can be made. I am trying to ning)-As I understand the comments get to the point of this matter and I of the honourable member for Albert need the chance to express my views Park, the building that he is concerned on it. about would come under the jurisdiction Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for of my colleague, the Minister of Public Planning) -On the point of order, it is Works, who is the Minister responsible fair to say that the honourable member for the Government Buildings Advisory is asking a question. I will certainly Council Act. The Bill to amend that answer the question, but in the context Act passed through Parliament this 4116 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

session. I will certainly raise it with the vISions will work. The provisions set Minister if the honourable member out in the Bill are clear. It is obvious refers it to me. Any information about that the Government wishes the council the building will be conveyed to the to report on those matters when making Minister. recommendations on the building. As I said, it may be on the preservation of Dr COGHILL (Werribee)-I endorse the building which, inescapably, must the remarks made by the Leader of the involve the question of the, appr~p~i~te Opposition on the inappropriateness of examination of the economIC feaSIbIlIty. having economic feasibility as one of It is a fact of life which must be con­ the criteria of the council. I shall go sidered. The council is given the op­ further than that and seek an explana­ portunity of examining and repo~ting on tion from the Minister on how this will work in practice, if it will have any the buildings, and this examinatI?n and meaning whatsoever. I point out to the report will give undoubted asslstan~e Minister that it could be a simple matter to the council the owners and the HIS­ for a potential developer to include an toric Buildings Council and the Govern­ opportunity cost in his assessment of ment in determining the matter. the economic viability or feasibility of I direct the honourable member's at­ the preservation of the building. tention to the fact that the recommenda­ Although it may be possible to demon­ tions are also subject to examination in strate that the building could be pre­ certain circumstances by referral to a served and an economic rental obtained person nominated by the chairman of from it, the same potential developer the Appeals Tribunal, which will give a could come along with an opportunity further opportunity for evaluation of of a much higher possible return these matters. by redevelopment of the site and leasing The clause was agreed to. or rental of the floor area or a much Clause 19 (Certain lands surrounding greater floor area of the redevelopment building to be registered land) site. All sorts of tricks like that could be used to provide any figures to indi­ Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan- cate that the proposed preservation is ning) -I move: not economically feasible. Clause 19, line 6, omit "or interest". Other aspects could similarly be used The amendment was agreed to. in an assertion by a developer that a Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ building in its present use, on its present ning)-I move: site is not an appropriate valuation. In Clause 19, line 11, omit "that the land be other words, he may be able to say that added to the register" and insert "that so much of the land as is necessary to be pre­ if the building were retained as it is, it served to maintain the historic or architectural would not be making a higher value use importance of the building be added to the of the site and, therefore, it would not register", be economically feasible for the building Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) to be preserved, even if it were retained -My understanding of clause 19 is that in its present use and its present value, where the council considers that the rather than its potential value. It may be historic or architectural importance or economically feasible to preserve the interest of a building on the register or building in· that use, on that zoning and proposed to be included on the register on that site valuation and building would be substantially less if the land valuation. 1 would like an explanation or any part of the land which is or has from the Minister on how this provision been used in conjunction with the build­ will work in any meaningful way apart ing were subdivided or developed, it from the obvious disadvantages and in­ may, if the land is in the same owner­ appropriateness pointed out by the Leader of the Opposition. ship as the building, recommend to the Minister that the land be added to the Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ register. The amendment provides that ning) -The honourable member for the words "that the land be added to the Werribee has asked how those pro- register" be deleted and the words, "that 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4117 so much of the land as is necess'ary to land surrounding buildings are sig­ be preserved to maintain the historic nificant. The Opposition will certainly or architectural importance of the build­ oppose this amendment as it is presently ing be added to the register" be in­ formulated, because it will permit the cluded. The clause deals with the land creation of more situations like Labassa, being lessened and the qualification of a magnificent building in Caulfield, the amendment gives the clause an en­ where' all· the land around it is en­ tirely different notion. croached upon by appalling subdivisions I do not understand what it is about. and developments. Monstrous yellow, It is late, but I have not seen the amend­ brick buildings are within 6 to 8 feet ment before tonight. There seems to be of the front door of this magnificent two different notions altogether and I structure, totally encroaching upon the do not follow what clause 19, as building itself. One has no perspective amended, will mean. I would be grateful of the building and cannot appreciate it if the Minister would indicate what for its architectural or historic im­ clause 19, as amended, will mean when portance. It is encroached upon from it comes into operation. both sides. If this amendment is passed, Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ this will be the ultimate result in other ning)-I agree with the Leader of the cases. Opposition, it is getting late. My I do not know whether the honour­ recollection is that the amendment able member for Caulfield has this par­ arises from a recommendation of ticular building in his electorate, but if Parliamentary Counsel to ensure that he does I am sure he will support me only so much of the land, as is on this proposal. If this amendment is necessary, should be included on the allowed to go through, there will be register. From the advice I have been buildings like Labassa repeated through­ given, I understand this amendment will out Victoria. clarify that intention. The amendment was agreed to, and I will be happy to take up the matter the clause, as amended, was adopted, in the period when this Bill passes as was clause 20. between this place and another place, and ask the Parliamentary Counsel to Clause 21 (Notice of recommenda­ further advise me on it. tion) Mr MILLER (Prahran)-On the Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) amendment, Mr Chiarman. I have seen ~lause 21 requires the council to give two press reports about proposed sub­ notice to each person who appears to divisions around some very important it to be the owner of the building on the church buildings----one in Ballarat, recommendation of the Minister pur­ where it was reported that the Bishop of suant to section 18. It goes on to state Ballarat was subdividing land around that the person is invited to make sub­ the Bishop's palace. The other was that missions. Again I emphasize that there land around Raheen was to be further is no attempt to give "any person" a subdivided. If that is the case, this similar right. It again is shutting out amendment could facilitate those two community participaton. subdi visions. The Opposition is concerned that this I am concerned in the same way as clause and clause 22 provide that "any the Leader of the Opposition is con­ person" will have no right to make sub­ cerned about this proposed amendment. missions, and no opportunity to do so. I do not know whether there was any I do not know why there is this desire truth or validity in those two accounts. to studiously exclude any community The Chairman might have some in­ participation in the mechanics of this formation about the Ballarat situation. Bill. It is saying to the community, Mr B. J. Evans-It is too late. "These historic buildings are none of Mr MILLER-It is a significant re­ your business. They are the business of striction and limitation on the power of the Minister, of the National Trust of the council, and these limitations on the Australia and the owner, and two or 4118 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY three other defined groups, and none Mr DUNSTAN-on a point of order, -of the rights that flow from this provi­ Mr Chairman. I said "No" before you sion will invest in you as a citizen. You said the "Ayes" have it. may have admired these buildings all The CHAIRMAN-Order! One mem­ your life, and been concerned about ber cannot call for a division, I under­ their deterioration, but they are not part stand, according to the Standing Orders. of your community that entitles you to have any say in the matter". That is Mr DUNSTAN-on a point of order, the spirit right throughout the Bill, and Mr Chairman, I believe that one member the Opposition rejects the notion and can eaU for a division. says that there is an important role to be The CHAIRMAN-order! It is clearly played by the concerned, and histori­ laid down that one member can register cally conscious citizen, and that role is his dissent, but he cannot call for a being denied by the provisions of clause division because it is necessary to have 21. two tellers. Does the honourable mem­ The clause was agreed to. ber wish to record his dissent on that clause? Clause 22 (Owner may make submis­ sion) Mr DUNSTAN-The Leader of the Opposition made a point, and on that Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) point I call for a division. If you wish -Clause 22 enables an owner to make for more than one, let me have some­ a submission to the Minister, and the one to back me up. function given in this clause to the Mini­ ster, the Opposition says, should be The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ undertaken by the council. There should In consideration for the honourable be provisions for council submissions as member for Dromana, I will put the well. What is occurring is that the question again. The question is: Minister is usurping the independent That clause 22, as amended, stand part of objective functions of the council, and the Bill. the Opposition rejects this provision The ayes have it. accordingly. Mr Dunstan-Therefore you have a Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for coop full of chickens. Planning) -Clause 22 enables a submis­ The clause, as amended, was adopted. sion to be made to the Minister follow­ Clause 23 (Inquiry into submission) ing the council's deliberations, and clause 23, which follows, provides that Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) the Minister refers the submissions re­ -This clause provides for the appoint­ ceived by him to the chief chairman of ment of the Chief Chairman of the the Planning Appeals Board, which I Planning Appeals Board to hold an in­ suggest is an excellent and fair way of quiry in respect of submissions that are having a second opinion on a difficult made pursuant to these provisions. I matter, which may lead to the resolu­ am curious about why the chief chair­ man should have been chosen to do this tion of the problem. job. In another clause where there is a The clause was consequentially and requirement for appeal, a judge of the verbally amended. County Court is stated to be the ap­ The CHAIRMAN (Mr A. T. Evans)­ propriate body. The question is that clause 22, as In this case there is a floundering amended, stand part. All of that opinion around to find some appropriate ap­ say "Aye", to the contrary uNo". The pellate body to review the serious dif­ ayes have it. ficulties into which the Minister has got Mr DUNSTAN (Dromana)-Mr Chair­ himself by adopting this dominant role man, I am saying uNo", because I want in the structure that the Bill sets up. to see how the Opposition stands on There is no consistency or pattern re­ this matter. vealed by the decision. Perhaps the The CHAIRMAN-The clause has Minister could indicate why the Chief been carried. Chairman of the Planning Appeals 2 December 1981 ] Historic Buildings Bill 4119 Board is appointed in this case and a The clause was agreed to. judge of the County Court is appointed Clause 25 (Report of inquiry held under another provision. under s. 23) Mr MILLER (Prahran)-Clauses 22 to 25-and clause 23 is one of the central Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) clauses-relate to the appeal mechanism -Clause 25 deals with the report of the against a decision by the Historic inquiry and gives the Minister an ab­ Buildings Council relating to the desig­ solute discretion to suppress such re­ nation of a building. One of the key ports as he thinks fit. It do not suggest mechanisms in this provision is that by that the Minister would exercise that which the Minister centralizes power provision perversely, but why should he in his own hands. be given the discretion not to make it public? It is a bad provision. Not only has the owner the power under clause 22 to appeal to the Minis­ There is no provision for notification ter, but the Minister has the power, as that the report is available, and it may the Leader of the Opposition indicated, well be effectively suppressed by that to take a second opinion through a result anyway, but there should be an further tribunal. It is a cumbersome pro­ absolute right to publication. t know of cess and will be expensive. Obviously no good reason why that would not be the comments made by the Leader of the case, nor why the Minister would the Opposition on this point are matters suggest that he would refuse to reveal that the Minister should take into the result of such inquiry to any person account. or t9 the public at large. I believe he would wish that that provision should Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for be there requiring such revelation. Planning) -The matters referred to the Chief Chairman of the Planning Appeals Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Board are those that were dealt with by Plannin'g) -The report must be sent by the council and the submissions relating the Minister to the council and to the to those council recommendations to the owner, and the council is made up of Minister. The matters that the County representative people. The reason for Court and Supreme Court are going to discretion-and I 'am sure this clause deal with are matters dealing with will be used judiciously-is in order penalties and breaches of the law, and that there can be good government and they are distinguishable. I am sure the to preserve the rights of owners, short Leader of the Opposition will see the of disclosure of their financial affairs, difference between the two. because they may be hampered if it The clause was agreed to. were possible to make public informa­ Clause 24 (Right of appearance at tion about their financial affairs or mat­ inquiry) ters perhaps dealing with hardship and members of their families. Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) -This clause requires that at an in­ I think it is unfair, and it is proper quiry held under section 22, the rights that a Minister of the Crown should be of appearance are limited to the owner permitted to use his discretion, as I and the council, and again, "any other said, judiciously, to preserve that sanc­ person" will be able to appear only with tity and to allow this type of inquiry to the consent of the owner and the coun­ proceed without the apprehension that cil or with the leave of the Minister. someone would understandably have of the public being told exactly how much Again, this is evidence of excluding he owes to the bank, what his commit­ the community from participation, and ments are to keep his family and other makes it clear that the Bill goes out of its way to exclude the citizen who is personal matters. concerned in this area and prevent him Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) or her from taking any part or interest -That is a bad reason to be advanced in this process that is set up by these by a Minister who is part of a Govern­ clauses. The Labor Party rejects that ment that says it is concerned about motion. freedom of information. If the Minister 4120 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

is concemed about these matters and Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I wonder if knows something about them, he would the Minister would give an indication of know that it is perfectly proper, desir­ what some of the terms included in that able 'and possible to sever the document amendment mean? Real limitations will that contains the report to which the be imposed by the amendment, whioh Minister referred. If the reason is that provides, in essence, that sub-clause 6 it contains matters of personal privacy (2) will not apply to any alteration to that ought not to be disclosed, that can the interior of a church for liturgical or be enunciated in the legislation. What religious purposes, or to alterations to is proposed here is that the Minister has a registered building or registered land, a discretion or power to suppress the being a church or land within the whole document, not just the parts that precincts of a church, for religious or are seen to be matters of private infor­ liturgical purposes. mation that may embarrass or concern I should like the Minister to explain a person or persons, and there is a dis­ exactly what "religious purposes" tinction. means. It is reasonably easy to deter­ I am suggesting that to have a blanket mine what liturgical purposes are and provision enabling the Minister to sup­ the Oxford Dictionary gives a good ex­ press the whole document is undesir­ planation of what is meant by "litur­ able. If he is concerned about those gical", but I submit to the Minister matters of privacy, he can include a that the amendment is capable of abuse. provision enabling him to keep them I lived in California for a year and I back, at the request of the person who observed the sort of activities under­ is affected by them, and that should be taken by certain "religious" organiza­ paramount; that is a reasonable request. tions there and the way in which some 1 see nothing wrong with that, and that of those religious organizations abused can be done, but to hide behind that powers given to them in that country. shield and refuse to disclose the whole It is obvious that the same sort of of the report, inquiry or undertakin·g is abuse could be carried on in Victoria wrong. by unscrupulous people wishing to set up religious organizations and they These matters are of concern to the could abuse the powers provided by public and the public ought to be allow­ the measure. ed access to what goes on in their deter­ mination. This provision flies in the I ask the Minister to explain what face of any suggestion of open govern­ "religious purposes" means because the ment and any notion of freedom of in­ expression "of a religious or liturgical formation being adhered to by the Gov­ nature" would cover almost anything ernment, the department or the body used by a church-it could be a print­ ing press, an office building or almost concerned. The Minister ought to re­ anything else. consider this provision because it is con­ trary to that notion. Mr LIE BERM AN (Minister for Planning) -The amendment has been The clause was agreed to. drawn up by an eminent Parliamentary Clause 26 (Effect of registration of an Counsel, Mr Finemore. The words and historic building or land) phrases used are quite capable of inter­ pretation with the use of common sense. Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for In any event, the Government will be Planning) -I move: glad to monitor the operations of the Clause 26, page 18, lines 36 and 37, omit provision and, with practice, I am sure sub-clause (11) and insert the following sub­ it will stand the test of time. If it does clause: not, appropriate action will be taken. U(l1) Sub-section (2) shall not apply to any The amendment was agreed to. alteration to a registered building or registered land (being a church or land within the pre­ Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) cinct of a church) for purposes which are of -The clause deals with permits to a religious or liturgical nature." alter buildings that have been 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill -4121 registered. I am concerned about the sentations could be in favour of or advertising provisions contained in sub­ against the granting of a permit, and clauses (4) and (5). There is no pro­ the applicant may put his main case by vision, as I read it, for notices to be way of representation rather than by served. on or posted to people im­ application. That is not uncommonly the mediately involved in the proposed case, and in that way members of the applications, such as tenants or occu­ public would not know that a case was piers of the building concerned or of being put to the Minister, so people the neighbouring buildings. opposed to, or for that matter in favour of, an application would not know Concerning the placing of notices on what material was being put against a building, the safeguard needed is not them and they would have no oppor­ that the period of display of the notice tunity of answering it. The Opposition should be restricted to 28 days, but says those provisions are unsatisfactory rather that a minimum period should be for those reasons. specified. Sub-clause (7) states: The Opposition says the wide and absolute discretion that vests in the (7) At the time a building or land is added to the register the Minister after considering a Minister in relation to what is referred report from the Council may declare that to as "all reasonable steps to ensure alterations of a class or classes specified in that the notice was continuously and the declaration may be carried out without a conspicuously displayed" is unsatis­ permit. factory. There are frequently complaints That is a very important provision, in these matters about the placing of which gives the Minister a wide power notices. It is often alleged that they are to exempt certain types of alterations removed from the buildings, not to certain parts of a building from the necessarily by anybody responsible for need for a permit. There is no provision the buildings, but just by people who requiring the Minister to give any seek to make trouble. In my experience, notice of his intention to do so or even it has been suggested that notices are afterwards, when the job has been done, not displayed conspicuously, that is to give notice of the .fact that it has that they are displayed on a part of the occurred, because there is no hearing. building or land that is not readily noticeable to passers-by or people who It could be minor work over a period, could be expected to be interested. but the over-all result could be quite bad from the point of view of the build­ At times it is alleged that the placing ing and the preservation of its historic of the notices is deliberately timed to aspects. The Opposition is saying that run over the Christmas holiday period this is a bad provision so far as notice or at some other time when people are is concerned and it does not ensure that away. It is also suggested that they are there is that community participation, put in places where they are likely to involvement and knowledge that is so be vandalized or removed and that in important. some cases they are removed deliberately. In any event, it is a fairly Mr FORDHAM (Footscray)-In view unsa tisfactory process. All the honour­ of the lateness of the hour, I move: able members would be aware of com­ That progress be reported. plaints from residents who say that they did not know the notices had been The Committee divided on the motion displayed. (Mr A. T. Evans in the chair). The Opposition says the provisions Ayes 31 for these types of applications are not satisfactory. Proposed section 26 .(6) Noes 45 (b) provides that any person may lodge representations with the council con­ Majority against the cerning an application and those repre- motion 14 4122 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

AYES Sub-clause (3) provides: Mr Cain Mr Miller Mr Cathie Mr Remington The Council shall within 60 days of receipt Dr Coghill Mr Roper of an application under section 26 or any Mr Crabb Mr Rowe longer period specified in any particular case Mr Culpin Mr Sidiropoulos by the Minister grant or after giving the Mr Edmunds Mr Simmonds owner an opportunity of being heard refuse Mr Ernst Mr Simpson to grant the permit or declaration. Mr Fogarty Mr Spyker Mr Fordham Mr Stirling Sub-clause (3) enables the Minister to Mr Gavin Mrs Toner grant a permit without giving anybody Mr Ginifer Mr Walsh a hearing or the opportunity of check­ Mr Hockley Mr Wilkes ing anything. The only person with any Mr Jolly Mr Wilton right to a hearing is the owner. I find Mr King Tellers: Mr Kirkwood Miss Callister that extraordinary. The owner has the Mr Mathews Dr Vaughan right to a hearing if the Minister is proposing to grant a permit. No one NOES else gets a hearing. The owner gets Mr Austin Ml McGrath an unopposed opportunity, it seems, to Mr Balfour Mr McInnes persuade the Minister-presumably in Mr Birrell Mr McKellar Mr Borthwick Mr Mackinnon secret, although I seek clarification from Mr Brown Mr Maclellan the Minister on that-and I am not Mr Burgin Mrs Patrick sure by what means, to change his mind. Mrs Chambers Mr Rams ay Clause 27 (3) is an extraordinary pro­ Mr Coteman Mr Richardson Mr Collins Mr Ross-Edwards vision. Mr Cox Mrs Sibree Mr Crellin Mr Skeggs Sub-clause (6) provides: Mr Dunstan Mr Smith If the Council does not notify the applicant Mr Ebery (South Barwon) of its decision pursuant to sub-section (3) Mr Evans Mr Smith within 60 days after receipt of the application (Gippsland East) ( Warrnambool) or any longer period specifi~d by the Minister Mr Hann Mr Templeton the Council shall be deemed to have granted Mr Hayes Mr Thompson a permit in respect of the application. Mr Jasper Mr Weideman Mr Jona Mr Whiting I am concerned about provisions of Mr Kennett Mr Williams that type whereby authority is given or Mr Lacy Mr Wood Mr Lieberman a permit is granted by default. That Mr McArthur Tellers: type of provision creates all sorts of Mr McCance Mr Reynolds problems. I am surprised that anybody Mr McClure Mr Tanner should have suggested that provision PAIR to the Minister. The original Building Mr Trezise Mr Dixon Control Act contained a similar pro­ vision, but I do not know whether that The sitting was suspended at 12.6 provision is contained in the later Act. -a.m. (Thursday) until 12.33 a.m. Provisions of this type lead to situ­ The clause, as amended, was agreed ations where works of enormous con­ to. sequence can be legalized simply by Clause 27 (Examination by Council) default and even by oversight. Such a Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for provision opens the way for responsible Planning) --I move: people who have a duty cast upon them to simply shirk that responsibility by Clause 27, page 19, line 4, omit "or interest". indulging in an oversight. The amendment was agreed to. Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) No doubt the argument in favour of -Clause 27 (1) provides: this provision will be that unnecessary Any application to the Council under section delays can be caused without such a 26 shall be examined and determined by the provision. That need not be so. The Council which shall determine whether a per­ Act provides that certain duties take mit or declaration should be granted or refused and whether the grant ofa permit or declara­ action within a given period of time, tion should be subject to conditions or not. and those who have rights to require 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4123 that that duty be performed within that AYES period have their remedies. They can Mr Austin Mr McKellar Mr Balfour Mr Mackinnon take steps to require legally that the Mr Birrell Mr Maclellan officer or bod.y, as the case may be, Mr Borthwick Mrs Patrick carries out that function or performs Mr Brown Mr Ramsay that duty. The officer or body con­ Mr Burgin Mr Richardson Mrs Chambers Mr Ross-Edwards cerned ought to be required to exercise Mr Coleman Mrs Sibree his or its functions like anyone else. Mr Collins Mr Skeggs It is highly undesirable to allow a per­ Mr Cox Mr Smith mit to be granted or refused, as the Mr Crellin (South Barwon) Mr Dunstan Mr Smith case may be, simply by default. Mr Ebery ( Warrnambool) Mr Hayes Mr Tanner Clause 27 (7) also requires some Mr Jasper Mr Templeton consideration. It provides: Mr Jona Mr Thompson Mr Kennett Mr Weideman (7) Where an application is made to the Mr Lacy Mr Whiting council of a municipality or other authority Mr Lieberman Mr Williams in respect of the doing or carrying out of an Mr McArthur Mr Wood act matter or thing for which a permit of the Mr McCance Tellers: Council has been granted subject to conditions Mr McClure Mr McGrath and the council or other authority determines Mr McInnes Mr Reynolds the application by granting approval subject to conditions, the conditions subject to which the approval of that council or authority is' granted NOES shall not be inconsistent with the conditions Mr Cain Mr Miller subject to which the permit of the Council Mr Cathie Mr Remington has been granted. Dr Coghill Mr Roper Mr Crabb Mr Rowe Municipalities and other authorities are Mr Culpin Mr Sidiropou}os Mr Edmunds Mr Simpson subject to more stringent safeguards in Mr Emst Mr Spyker the Acts under which they operate than Mr Fogarty Mr Stirling appears to be the case in this provision. Mr Fordham Mrs Toner Mr Gavin Mr Walsh I do not understand why their authority Mr Ginifer Mr Wilkes should be undermined in this way. Mr Hockley Mr Wilton Mr Jolly I can see no reason why applicants Mr King Tellers: Mr Kirkwood Miss Callister for permits ought not to be subject to Or Vaughan the ordinary law of the land like every­ Mr Mathews body else. If what they want to do PAIR requires a town planning permit, Health Mr Oixon Mr Trezise Commission consent or an Environment Clause 28 (Submission to the Minister Protection Authority licence, they against certain determinations of the ought to satisfy the requirements of council) the relevant body and the laws and regulations applicable to those auth­ Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) orities rather that the Minister adminis­ -Clause 28 is an example of what hap­ tering this Act. pens when the Minister for Planning is given absolute power. The clause pur­ The Opposition opposes clause 27 and ports to create some safeguards by way urges its rejection by the Committee. of review or appeal. This is nothing more than a facade. It is rendering to The Committee divided on the clause, Caesar what is Caesar's and it is a re­ as amended (Mr A. T. Evans in the sult of the dominant position the Minis­ chair) . ter has been given in the structure of the Bill. It is a nonsense provision that Ayes 43 should not exist. Noes 30 The clause was agreed to, as were clauses 29 to 31. Majority for the clause, Clause 32 (Effect of the Governor in as amended .. 13 Council's decision) 4124 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY

Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) (b) for a second or subsequent offence, to -I ask the Minister for Planning to a penalty of $10000 or imprisonment for two years or both the fine and the com'ment on the clause, which appears imprisonment; and to preclude a'ny review of a decision made by the Governor in Council. It ( c) in the case of a continuing offence t() a further penalty of not more than says that the decision shall be final and $100 for every day during which the shall be given effect to by the council. offence continues after conviction." That appears to prevent there being any redress by way of a review or an appeal. The present Act provides for imprison­ Regardless of any error in law, a de­ ment as a punishment for offences cision cannot be reviewed or appealed against the Act. For reasons that are against. 1 ask the Minister to indicate believed to be apparent to some people, whether that is the intention of the the present Bill removes all reference to provision. imprisonment by way of penalty. The Opposition suggests that the penalties Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for set out in clause 39 are inadequate and Planning) -The clause speaks for itself. there is no real deterrent in monetary It is not uncommon and it is consistent penalties for possible offences. There is with decisions of the Governor in Coun­ not even the deterrent of fines being cils under many other Acts of Parlia­ determined on a daily basis where ment. millions of dollars are involved in de­ The clause was agreed to, as were velopments. I am sure it is clear to clauses 33 and 34. every member of the Committee that if Clause 35 . (Notices to show cause large sums were at stake defiance of why certain repairs should not be car­ the Act and the determination not to ried out) comply with its provisions may be profitable if one measures the profits to Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) be made from going ahead and committ­ -Clause 35 (2) states: ing the breach compared with the fines. The Council, in a notice referred to in sub­ section (1), shall specify only such repairs as, There is no adequate evidentiary pro­ in its opinion, are necessary to prevent any vision regarding the proof required to further deterioration in the condition of the ensure that prosecutions are successful. building the subject of that notice. The power is to compel the owner to In all these Acts there are what is take action to prevent further deteriora­ known as deeming provisions or pro­ tion. I am not clear how that will be visions allowing proof of matters by carried out in practice or what will certificate or requiring certain admis­ occur. Does the owner get. notice? Does sions by incorporation. In the absence the council telephone the owner to give of those sorts of provisions it is unlikely notice specifying repairs? I wonder what There is no adequate evidentiary pro­ procedure will be followed to ensure secutions. that the owner complies with the re­ In view of the backdown on the im­ quirement under clause 35 (2). prisonment provision and the absence Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ of provisions making formal proof ning)-Sub-clause (2) will be carefully easier, it leads to the view that the monitored as the Act operates. Government does not show any inten­ The clause was agreed to, as were tion of taking much action against those clauses 36 to 38. who set out to offend the provisions Clause 39 (Offences) of the Bill. There are greedy people­ Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition) I use the word advisedly-who will pur­ -1 move: sue their own ends-it has happened Clause 39, lines 27 to 31, omit all words before-and regardless of any monetary and expressions on these lines and insert- consequence, simply because it pays "this Act and liable- them to do it, they will pursue their (a) for a first offence to a penalty of own ends at the ultimate costs of the $5000 or imprisonment for 12 months or both the fine and the imprison­ community. There is no prospect what­ ment; ever that these provisions can be en- 2 December 1981] Historic Buildings Bill 4125 forced merely by monetary penalties, In view of the fact that the 1974 Act even of the magnitude provided in the included the possibility of a gaol Bill. sentence, and the fact that if the Act is to work as a satisfactory piece of Sub-clause (3) provides that: legislation the National Party is pre­ Notwithstanding anything in any Act pro­ pared to support the amendment moved ceedings for an offence ·against this Act may be brought within the period of three years by the Leader of the Opposition because after the commission of the alleged offence. we believe it will act as a deterrent on those people who would otherwise be Very often breaches of these provisions tempted to take advantage of the fact are not known until some time after the that even though they could be fined up breach has occurred. The three-year to $10000 for a first offence or $20000 limitation is not a long period. for a second offence they would allow The combination of three things-no the properties to deteriorate or would sanction so far as gaol is concerned; no take some other action that would not deeming provisions and no proofs made be in the best interests of the preserva­ by way of the usual or customary pro­ tion of those historic and important visions in an Act of this kind; and the buildings. For that reason, the National short limitation period makes it highly Party supports the amendment. unlikely that any offences will be suc­ Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for Plan­ cessfully proceeded against under the ning)-The Government cannot accept provisions of this measure. That rein­ the amendment. It gave thought to the forces the Opposition's view that there question of penalty provisions and fin­ has been a watering down of the desire ally decided to reject them. However, to protect the hstoric buildings on this the fines are substantial. In rejecting State with this measure. As I said, the penal provisions the Government opted present Act provides a penalty of a gaol for a provision which appears later in sentence and anything less will not pro­ the Bills which, as honourable members vide the necessary protection. would be aware, is a very effective deterrent which is used in· the New Mr WHITING (Mildura)-The Leader South Wales legislation. That provision of the Opposition is correct; sections 14 enables a quarantine to be placed on and 18 of the Historic Buildings Act the property in question and to deprive 1974 provide for monetary fines of the property owner of the right of $1000 or imprisonment for one year further development. As the Leader of or both, or a fine of $500 or imprison­ the Opposition said, advisedly, some ment for six months or both. This people are greedy. On balance, it is measure provides for a penalty of not thought that the prospect of not being more than $10 000 for a first offence able to fully exploit the property is and not more than $20 000 for a second likely to be a very effective restraining or subsequent offence and in the case of measure. The operation of the clause a continuing offence a further penalty will be monitored carefully and, should of not more than $1000 for every day it prove to be unsuccessful, the Govern­ during which the offence continues ment will consider an amendment. after conviction. Mr MILLER (Prahran)-Given that The amendment moved by the Leader the Bill was drafted on 9 September of the Opposition provides for a first 1981, 1 ask the Minister for Planning offence a penalty of $5000 or im­ why he has not used up-to-date ter­ prisonment for twelve months or both minology as contained in the Penalties the fine and the imprisonment; for a and Sentences Bill by using penalty second or subsequent offence a penalty units rather than dollar figures? of $10000 or imprisonment for two Mr ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the years, or both the fine and imprisonment National Party) -I am disappointed and in the case of a continuing offence that the Minister for Planning has not a further penalty of not more than $100 accepted the principle of the amendment for every day during which the offence and 1 ask him to consider it further. It continues after conviction. makes a lot. of sense. It is all very well Session 1981-141 4126 Historic Buildings Bill [ASSEMBLY for the honourable gentleman to say The- amendment was agreed to, and that he will quarantine a developer but the clause, as amended, was adopted. a case could arise of a single building a company wants to get rid of-and I can Clause 40 (Interim preservation think of a few in the city of Melbourne orders) -that could be a Honcer" and whether Mr MILLER (Prahran)-I draw the the penalty is $5000, $10000 or $15000, attention of the Minister for Planning that monetary fine is of no consequence if the project is big enough. Neither to some of the problems in clause 40, is the gaol sentence automatic because which relates to interim preservation it is an and/or provision and obviously orders. They are most difficult to en­ it will be used by the courts in extreme force at present. The new proposals cases of some person or. company increase the administrative difficulties thumbing their nose at the law. It has by requiring Ministerial consent under happened in Melbourne before, as the sub-clause (2) and it is also difficult Minister for Planning well knows. I for the council to make a quick decision seriously suggest that, without losing given that under clause 7 (3) seven face and without harming the Bill-in members are necessary for a quorum. fact, the amendment strengthens the The interim preservation order neces­ Bill-the Minister for Planning should sarily requires quick action and there reconsider his attitude on the amend­ will be real difficulties in gaining a ment. quorum at short notice. If a quorum It is no good the Minister saying that is achieved, the Minister will then need the House will consider the legislative to consent to and approve of the measure further when it will not be decision. That causes administrative' meeting after Christmas and there will complexities and problems. not be a sessional period before May of next year. The Minister for Planning The clause was agreed to. should show courage and authority in Clause 41 was consequentially amend­ this matter. He is the Minister con­ ed, and, as amended, was adopted, as cerned. He does not have to discuss it were the remaining clauses and the with anyone else to accept the amend­ schedule. ment. The amendment is sensible and has the support of the National Party. The Bill was reported to the House with amendments, including an amended Mr LIEBERMAN (Minister for title, and passed through its remaining Planning) -I indicated that the Govern­ ment had carefully considered the stages. matter and evaluated it and considered that the quarantine provision would be CEMETERIES (GUARANTEES) BILL effective. As I said, it applies in New The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ South Wales. The amendment was not man) announced the presentation of a drawn to my attention before today. message from ·His Excellency the Gov­ The first I had notice of it was when ernor recommending that an appro­ the debate commenced, and I do not priation be made from the Consolidated criticize the Opposition for that. The Fund for the purposes of the Cemeteries support of the National Party for the (Guarantees) Bill. imposition of penal provisions was not made known to me until the Leader of Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ port), pursuant to Standing Order No. the National Party indicated his strong 169, moved for leave to bring in a Bill support for it. to amend the Cemeteries Act 1958 and Under the circumstances, because the for other purposes. decision of the Government was one The motion was agreed to. made on balance and not made in the sense of total rejection of the amend­ The Bill was brought in and read a ment, I shall accept the amendment. first time. 2 Decemlher 1981] Questions on Notice 4127

HOSPITALS ANO CHARITIES Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ (BORROWING POWERS) BILL port), pursuant to Standing Order No. The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. Plow­ 169, moved for leave to bring in a Bill J. to amend the Hospitals and Charities man) announced the presentation of a Act 1958 with respect to the borrowing m'essage from His Excellency the powers of certain institutions. Governor recommending that an ap­ The motion was agreed to. propriation' be made from the Con­ The Bill was brought in and read a solidated Fund for the purposes of the first time. Hospitals and Charities (Borrowing The House adjourned at 1.11 a.m. Powers) Bill. (Thursday) .

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

The following answers to questions TIMBER PROMOTION COUNCIL on notice were circulated- (Question No. 466) Mr SPYKER (Heatherton) asked the ANIMAL EXPERIMENTATION ETHICS Minister of Forests: REVIEW COMMITTEES 1. Who are the members of the Timber Promotion Council? (Question No. 446) 2. How appointments to this council are Or COGHILL (Werribee) asked the made? Minister of Agriculture: 3. Who nominated each person considered for appointment to this council? Whether the Department of Agriculture has Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Forests)­ established any animal experimentation ethics review committees or similar bodies; if so­ The answer is: (a) who are the members; (b) whether codes 1 and 3. The members of the Timber Pro­ of practice have been adopted; and (c) what motion Council are: Messrs G. Griffin, L. B. current research projects were examined in Williams and 1. R; Kennedy nominated by the each case? Forests Commission; Messrs O. R. Oossetor, P. J. Robinson and T. R. Brabin nominated by Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agriculture) the Victorian Sawmillers Association and Or -The answer is: F. R. Moulds and Messrs F. Ladner and I. T. Sherwen. All animal experimentation carried out by 2. Appointments to the council are made by officers of the Department of Agriculture is the Minister of Forests by notice published in subject to approval by an animal experimenta­ the Government Gazette. The regulations pro­ tion ethics review committee. Membership of vide that there shall be not more than nine animal experimentation ethics review com­ permanent members of the council including mittees comprises senior scientific personnel of three nominated by the Forests Commission the laboratory or unit where the experimenta­ and three by the Victorian Sawmillers Associa­ tion is carried out. I can rrovide the honour­ tion. a,ble member with a list 0 names if he has a particular establishment in mind. All animal experimentation is carried out in accordance FRUIT FLY OUTBREAKS with the NHMRC/CSIRO "Code of Practice for (Question No. 476) the Care and Use of Animals in Research in Australia" . Or COGHILL (Werribee) asked the All research projects being conducted at the Minister of Agriculture: time the Department of Agriculture assumed Further to the answer to question No. 1024 responsibility for the administration of the Pro­ given on 28 April 1981, what are the boun­ tection of Animals Act and all research projects daries of the area in East Gippsland now re­ initiated since then have been reviewed by an garded as an endemic area for fruit fly, indi­ animal experimentation ethics review commit­ cating the names of all places infested in each tee. Again if the honourable member has a of the past five years, and the places in which specific area of work in mind I can arrange to fruit fly has been detected from 1 July 1981 to provide him with details. date? 4128 Questions on Notice [ASSEMBLY

Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agriculture) Clapplication of the inquiry to statutory authori­ ties generally"; if so, what action has been -The answer is: taken or is intended to be taken on the findings The honourable member asked a similar and recommendations of the report as they question during the autumn sessional period might apply to authorities for which he has 1981, and the answer was supplied to him by Ministerial responsibility? the acting Minister of Agriculture by letter dated 15 June 1981. Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agriculture) The area of east Gippsland proclaimed as -The answer is: endemic for fruit fly comprises the Shires of My attention has been drawn to a copy of Orbost, Tambo and Omeo and those parts of the report from the Senate Standing Commit­ the Shire of Bairnsdale lying to the north and tee on Finance and Government Operations on east of the Mitchell River, the whole of the tlie Australian Dairy Corporation and its Asian township of Bairnsdale and the whole of the subsidiaries. Chapter 16 of the report deals Parish of Bairnsdale within the County of with the creation, by statutory corporations, Tanjil. of subsidiaries, and then deals with statutory corporations generally in relation to guidelines The towns infested over the past five years on expenditure, conflicts of interest, and re­ have been: ports by the Auditor-General on the accounts 1976-77-Bete Bolong, Bete Bolong North, and records of authorities. Bendock Lower, Bindi, Bonang, Buchan, Brod­ The Public Accounts and Expenditure Review ribb, Cann River, Combienbar, Delegate River, Committee of the Victorian Parliament is cur­ Dellicknora, Goongerah, Jarrahmond, Malla­ rently conducting an inquiry which includes, coota, Nowa Nowa, Orbost, Tubbit, Wombat as one of its terms of reference, the account­ Creek. ability and audit requirements of statutory 1977-78-Club Terrace, Bemm River, Bete authorities, including the question of whether Bolong, Bete Bolong North, Bruthen, Buchan, new provisions are needed in the Audit Act Cabbage Tree, Cann River, Combienbar, Errin­ for this and if so the nature of such provisions. undra, Gillingal Station, Goongerah, Jarrah­ mond, Lake Bunga, Lakes Entrance, Lake Tyers, I will give further consideration to this mat­ Mallacoota, Marlo, Murrindal, Nowa Nowa, ter when the report of the Public Accounts Nu ngurner, Orbost, Swifts Creek, Wiseleigh, and Expenditure Review Committee has been Wairewa. presented. 1978-79-Bemm River, Bete Bolong, Cabbage Tree, Cann River, Club Terrace, Combienbar, MEMBERS OF STATUTORY Errinundra, Jarrahmond, Mallacoota, Marlo, AUTHORITIES Murrindal, Noorinbee, Nowa Nowa, Orbost. (Question No. 506) 1979-80-Bete Bolong, Buchan, Cann River, Club Terrace, Genoa, Jarrahmond, Lakes En­ Dr COGHILL (Werribee) asked the trance, Mallacoota, Mallacoota North, Marlo, Minister of Agriculture: Marlo 'Plains, Murrungower, Newmerella, Noor­ inbee, Orbost, Swifts Creek, Wairewa. In respect of each statutory authority for which he is responsible, whether the chairman 1980-81-Bemm River, Bete Bolong, Bete and each member appointed to the authority Bolong North, Bruthen, Buchan, Buldah, Cab­ has been issued with guidelines or other indica­ bage Tree, Cann River, Club Terrace, Com­ tions as to their roles and responsibilities on bienbar, Jarrahmond, Lakes Entrance, Malla­ the authority and in respect of the authority's coota, Marlo Plains, Marlo, Murrindal, Murrun­ relationship to the Minister and the Parlia­ gower, Newmerella, Noorinbee, Orbost, Sunny ment, indicating the nature of any such guide­ Point, The Basin, Tongi Creek, Wairewa, Wom­ lines in each case; if not, why? bat Creek, Ma11acoota North. Since 1 July 1981 fruit fly has been detected Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agriculture) in the following towns or places in the endemic -The answer is: area: A copy of extracts from the judgment given Bete Bolong, Bruthen, Jarrahmond, Lakes by Mr Justice Street in the Supreme Court of Entrance, Mallacoota, Orbost, Swifts Creek, New South Wales in the case of Bennetts v. Wiseleigh. Board of Fire Commissioners of New South Wales was forwarded by my predecessor in STATUTORY AUTHORITIES April 1976 to the chairmen of all statutory authorities under the jurisdiction of the Minister (Question No. 505) of Agriculture whose membership included per­ sons nominated or chosen by sectional groups. Dr COGHILL (Werribee) asked the No other guidelines have been issued regard­ Minister of Agriculture: ing the role or responsibilities of members Whether he has studied the report from the appointed to statutory authorities under my Senate Standing Committee on Finance and jurisdiction. Government Operations on the Australian Dairy The relationship of each authority to the Corporation and its Asian subsidiaries, with Minister and the Parliament is set out in the particular reference to chapter 16 entitled relevant legislation. 2 December 1981] Questions on Notice 4129

(Question No. 507) labour unit for beef production and each al­ ternative enterprise in the area; and (iv) Dr COGHILL (Werribee) asked the whether the enterprises which would offer the Minister of Agriculture: maximum sustainable production from the land were determined before the projects were In respect of each statutory authority for approved; (c) in respect of Project DAV33- which he is responsible, whether the applica­ (i) the relationship of beef production to al­ tion of the decision of Mr Justice Street, in ternative enterprises; and (ii) the relationship the Supreme Court case of New South Wales of beef production to other production in mixed in Bennetts v. Board of Fire Commissioners enterprises; and (d) whether the effects of the of New South Wales, to the role and responsi­ instability of returns from beef production are bility of each member of each such statutory being examined; if so, in what manner? authority, has been drawn to the attention of each such member; if not, why? Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agriculture) Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agriculture) -The answer is: -The answer is: This question seeks very detailed information regarding particular projects undertaken by In the case of Bennetts v. Board of the Department of Agriculture which would Fire Commissioners of New South Wales, his Honour, Mr Justice Street, traversed the re­ take a great deal of time to obtain. sponsibilities of members of statutory authori­ I would be prepared to make arrangements ties nominated or chosen by sectional groups, for the honourable member to discuss the and in particular emphasised the over-riding matter with a senior officer of the department. obligation imposed on such a person as a mem­ Alternatively, if the honourable member wishes ber of a statutory authority to service the to obtain information relating to beef produc­ public interest rather than the sectional in­ tion insofar as it affects his electorate, I will terests of the group which chose him. endeavour to obtain the answer. In April 1976 my predecessor drew the ob­ servations of Mr Justice Street to the atten­ tion of the chairmen of all statutory authorities ANIMAL EXPERIMENT AnON under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Agri­ (Question No. 532) culture whose membership included persons nominated or chosen by sectional groups. A Dr COGHILL (Werribee) asked the copy of relevant extracts from the judgment was forwarded to each of the chairman for the Minister of Agriculture: information of the members of the statutory Further to the answer to question No. 210 authorities concerned. given on 7 October 1981, what are the details There has been a number of changes in the of the recommendations made in respect of membership of these authorities since 1976, animal experimentation, indicating-( a) and there have also been changes in the statu­ whether new legislation has been proposed, tory authorities themselves. Some of those and if so, whether it is similar to that proposed which existed in 1976 have been dissolved or to the New South Wales Government by the disbanded and several new ones have been Australian Veterinary Association Ltd (N.S.W. established. I have therefore instructed the Division); (b) whether the proposed code of Department of Agriculture to re-issue copies of practice differs from that prepared jointly by extracts from the judgment to the relevant the National Health and Medical Research statutory authorities under my jurisdiction. Council and the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization and, if so, in what aspects; (c) whether a separate peer BEEF PRODUCTION group review committee is proposed to be appointed at each smaller institution and each (Question No. 529) appropriate section of larger institutions con­ ducting animal experimentation; (d) whether Or COGHILL (Werribee) asked the each peer group review committee is proposed Minister of Agriculture: to include-(i) members from outside the in­ Further to the answer to question No. 212 stitution; and (ii) lay members; (e) whether given on 10 November 1981, what is the rela­ a peer group review committee would monitor tionship of each project within the departmental the progress of individual projects; (f) whether programme "Beef Production" to the Govern­ he will release and publish the recommenda­ ment's broad objectives for agriculture in the tions for comment by research workers and 1980s, indicating-(a) the nature and names the public and, if not, why; and (g). what action of the several individual research projects is being taken on the recommendations? within Project DAV20; (b) in respect of Pro­ ject DAV29-(i) whether all cattle involved Mr AUSTIN (Minister of Agriculture) are located on the Research Institute, Ruther­ -The answer is: glen; (ii) the proportion of land with similar agricultural characteristics in north-east Vic­ I will make available senior officers of the toria now used for beef production; (iii) the Department of Agriculture to discuss with the estimates of the value of production per hec­ honourable member details of matters raised tare, per unit capital invested, and per full-time in question No. 532. 4130 Questions without Notice [COUNCIL environmental issues and, if not, what Legislative Council undertaking will he give to correct the Thursday, 3 December 1981 situation and will he take into con­ sideration the substance of the Aus­ tralian Conservation Foundation's case The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Grlm­ in considering the Land Conservation wade) took the chair at 1.4 p.m. and Council's final recommendations for the read the prayer. north east? GOVERNOR'S SPEECH The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON (Minister for Conservation) -I believe Presentation of Address-in-Reply that question should be asked of the The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Attorney-General. I therefore ask the Grimwade)-I have the honour to honourable member to put his question report that, accompanied by honourable on notice. members, I this day waited upon His Excellency the Governor and presented to him the Address of the Legislative MUSIC TEACHERS FOR COUNTRY Council, adopted on 29 October last, in SCHOOLS reply to His Excellency's Speech on the The Hon. B. P. DUNN (North Western opening of Parliament. His Excellency Province) -My question is directed to was pleased to make the following reply: the Minister of Education. Is it a fact MR PRESIDENT AND HONOURABLE that 23 per cent of city high schools MEMBERS OF THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL: and 61 per cent of country high schools In the name and on behalf of Her Majesty do not have class-room music teachers? The. Queen I thank you for your expressions In view of that fact, does the Minister of loyalty to our Most Gracious Sovereign recognize the need for music teachers contained in the address you have just pre­ to be available and the need for music sented to me. to be taught in schools throughout Vic­ I fully rely on your wisdom in deliberating toria? If so, what action does he pro­ upon the important measures to be brought under your consideration, and I earnestly hope pose to take to ensure an increase in that the results of your labours will be con­ the supply of music teachers to schools ducive to the advancement and prosperity of and to ensure that the pool of music this State. teachers in Melbourne who are awaiting appointment can be encouraged to teach HISTORIC BUILDINGS BILL in country schools? This Bill was received from the The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of Assembly and, on the motion of the Education) -The honourable member Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of Educa­ has provided detailed statistics in his tion), was read a first time. question. I am not able to confirm or deny those figures at the drop of a hat. If the honourable member seeks a reply QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE on those statistics, I ask him to place the question on notice. However, as a general answer, there was a consider­ PINE PLANTATIONS able increase in the number of music The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Melbourne teachers within the financial limits of Province) -My question is directed to the Budget. the Minister for Conservation. I refer to the denial two days ago of the stand­ I am further aware that the shared ing of the Australian Conservation travelling teacher system is certainly Foundation in its legal challenge to the not working to Mr Dunn's satisfaction Government on the Land Conservation and he has made that plain on a num­ Council recommendation to use native ber of occasions. Furthermore, the funds forests for pine plantations in north­ for travelling of shared teachers are also eastern Victoria. Does the Minister a constraining factor. As for the larger support the denial of standing to all schools, it is a matter for the school conservation groups in appeals on concerned to determine the deployment 3 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4131 of its staff, and the specialist staff it Geelong Advertiser concerning a solici­ chooses will depend on how it organizes tor who was locked up and charged with its curriculum and class-room teaching. wilful behaviour by Mr B. Gillman, Stipendiary Magistrate, in the Geelong The problem lies with small schools Magistrates Court on Tuesday. Is the and in particular with smaller country Attorney-General concerned at the schools. I am aware of Mr Dunn's dis­ reasons behind the outburst by the satisfaction and we are working on ways solicitor which led to charges being and means of reaching a solution. made, namely, that Mr Gillman 'in­ structed the police prosecutor that he STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION did not require cross-examination of Mr EQUIPMENT Sullivan's client and that there was no The Hon. D. K. HA YW ARD point in hearing any further witness on (Monash Province) -I address a ques­ Mr Sullivan's client's behalf? Does the tion to the Minister for Minerals and Attorney-General agree that such ac­ Energy. In view of the press reports tions by the magistrate appear to be ac­ that the New South Wales Government denial of justice and that Mr Sullivan intends to sell one of its power stations, had every right to disagree with what is the policy of the Victorian Gov­ the magistrate? ernment in relation to possible involve­ The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. Grim­ ment by private enterprise in future wade)-Qrder! The honourable member power generation in Victoria? is raising a matter that could be con­ The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister sidered to be sub judice as it is before for Minerals and Energy) -I am aware a court. The question is out of order of the media reports covering the event as it infringes the sub judice rule. If the to which the honourable member honourable member is seeking a legal referred. opinion, the question is also out of Apparently the New South Wales order. I ask the honourable member to Government has recently introduced rephrase his remarks to avoid offending legislation into the State Parliament for the sub judice rule and not to seek a private financing of the Eraring power legal opinion. station in the Hunter Valley, Newcastle. Mr MACKENZIE-Is the Attorney­ From what I can glean from those General concerned about this report and reports it appears to be quite an does he intend to take any action on ingenious manoeuvre to circumvent the this matter? Australian Loan Council restraints. If The Hon. HADOON STOREY that move is successful, perhaps our (Attorney-General) -Perhaps all the counterparts in New South Wales must objections were unnecessary. I have not be congratulated. read the report and I am not aware However, it is a policy of the Vic­ of any of the details. I saw the headline in the Age this morning, which I glanced torian Government to actively pursue at quickly, but I have not read the entire the involvement of private enterprise in article. I know nothing about the matter financing power generation, and the and I confess, from what the honourable feasibility of such involvement will be member has said, that it sounds as further investigated with a view to though it is essentially a matter before seriously assessing the contribution that the court and appropriate judicial re­ can be made by private enterprise and medies are available for anyone who its participation in funding and con­ may be concerned about what occurred. structing future generating capacity. It would be inappropriate for me to make any comment about the matter. GEELONG MAGISTRATES COURT The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE BINGO (Geelong Province) -I direct a question The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North to the Attorney-General. I draw the Eastern Province) -Earlier in the week honourable gentleman's attention to a the Attorney-General was unable to in­ report in today's Age and yesterday's . dicate to the House what his response 4132 Questions without Notice [COUNCIL would be to the many representations Minister indicate whether recent re­ received on bingo. Is he now in a posi­ ports have been m'ade by the Environ­ tion to inform the House of any de­ ment Protection Authority on the de­ cisions that have been made? sired controls or any further action that The Hon. HADDON STOREY is required by the company to ensure (Attorney-General)-Yes, I am. I in­ the mini-mization of discharge of this dicated earlier that I understood the dangerous substance into the environ­ Premier would be making a press re­ ment? lease on the matter. As it turns out, I The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON (Min­ have made the press release. The Gov­ ister for Conservation) -The licence to ernment received many representations .B. F. Goodrich Chemical Ltd was issued on the matter and what is even more in accordance with requirements for the significant is that it received many sug­ protection of air quality around that gestions of changes that might be made factory. If the ICI plant licence cancel­ to the general rules that are laid down lation at Geelong has anything to do in the Act on playing bingo. The people with that matter, increased production who put forward the suggestions from those works would mean that an claimed that those changes would im­ amended licence would have to be is­ prove the conduct of bingo and make it sued. I have not read any reports on more beneficial to the many worthy the B. F. Goodrich factory in the past community organizations that run bingo week or two. I will ascertain whether games and derive benefit from them. more recent reports have been released, There was certainly not a unanimous and let the honourable member have agreement amongst all the organizations that information. on what the best approach would be. lt seems to the Government, in the light ENTERPRISE AUSTRALIA of this, that it should carefully examine The Hon. JOAN COX SEDGE (Mel­ all the suggestions and determine bourne West Province)-Following my whether some changes should be made question on 26 November, I ask the that. would be in the interests of the Minister of Education, who previously organizations that run these games for confessed ignorance on this matter, to community purposes and also of the undertake investigations into the way in people who play them. which Enterprise Australia, 'an American -modelled, mind-managing outfit, has In the light of that, the Government infiltrated school systems in other has decided not to proceed with the States and has distributed "Work-And­ amendments that were being made to Wealth" kits as part of its expensive part of the Lotteries Gaming and attempt to bolster the so-called free Betting Act. Appropriate amendments enterprise system. Will the Minister act will be dealt with in another place to to protect students in Victorian Govern­ delete those provisions that relate to ment schools from the insidious opera­ the surcharge on bingo and also to tions of this extreme right-wing organi­ maximize the prize money. That would zation that is operating with apparent­ mean that the maximum percentage of ly limitless funds, as the chief executive the amount of money invested would be of Enterprise Australia, Jack Keavney, returned by way of a prize. has said that it is the intention of this questionable group to expand its propa­ ganda campaign into all Australian B. F. GOODRICH CHEMICAL LTD schools? The Hon. D. N. SALTMARSH The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of (Waverley Province)-My question to Education) -The answer to the first the Minister for Conservation relates to part of the question is, "Yes". How­ the discharge of the extremely danger­ ever, it will assist me greatly, as a ous vinyl chloride from an old plant at starting point, if Mrs Coxsedge will pro­ B. F. Goodrich Chemical Ltd in Altona. vide me with the information at her dis­ As the plant is still operating, can the posal. I will commence my inquiries 3 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4133

immediately after the material is re­ one shire would lose about $40000 if ceived. The answer to the second part these bathing boxes were ordered to be of the question will depend on the re­ removed. sult of the first part of the question. The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (Minister of Lands)-The bathing boxes on the foreshore of Port Phillip Bay are The Hon. D. M. EV ANS (North a relic from the past. As they fall into Eastern Province) -My question is ad­ disrepair their licences for re-use are dressed to the Minister of Education. not renewed, and there are no compen­ I indicate concern at the slow way in sations payable. which a number of payments for travel­ ling expenses are processed for opera­ WEEK-END TRADING tives within the Education Department. I can indicate two examples where as The Hon. G. A. SGRO {Melbourne much as almost $1000 in travelling ex­ North Province)-Will the Attorney­ penses is owed to certain people work­ General give an undertaking to prose­ ing in the Education Department and cute the proprietors of furniture shops those amounts go back to August of and sporting goods shops who are this year. Is it correct that the reason illegally advertising their intention to for the slow processing of these pay­ break the law, and who have, in fact, ments is the lack of staff in the relevant broken the law by trading outside the part of the Education Department and, legally prescribed trading hours on Sa t­ if so, will the Minister act to ensure urdays and Sundays? that this backlog of payments is met The Hon. HADDON STOREY as soon as possible and that sufficient (Attorney-General) -As the honourable staff are available for the processing? member is aware, this is a matter for the Minister of Labour and Industry, The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of whom I represent in this place, and I Education) -The prime reason for the will pass the question on to him to slowness is the cum'bersomeness of the give a reply. system. The honourable member is aware that the Government is currently I also might say that, if Mr Sgro has in the course of streamlining the de­ any specific cases in mind-his question partment. Delays of this sort ought not does not refer to specific cases-and he to occur and represent an unnecessary passes them on to me, I will refer them imposition on teachers and those affect­ to the Minister. ed by the department. My colleague and I desire to ensure that these delays, so ALCOA OF AUSTRALIA LIMITED far as practicable, are eliminated as soon The HOD. H. M. HAMILTON (Higin­ as possible. botham Province) -I refer to the press reports in this afternoon's paper about BATmNG BOXES the probable agreement between the The Hon. H. R. WARD (South Government and the Alcoa company, Eastern Province) -My question to the and I ask the Minister for Minerals Minister of Lands relates to an article and Energy whether he has any infor­ on page 3 of the Herald on bathing mation regarding this vital project and boxes. There are 2600 bathing boxes the negotiations taking place, and if it that are claimed to be anachronisms on is a fact that an agreement has been our foreshores in Victoria, some 2000 reached? of which are controlled by Momington The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister Peninsula shires. Can the Port Phillip for Minerals and Energy) -I am Authority order the removal of these aware of the headline article in the bathing boxes from the foreshores and Herald to which Mr Hamilton refers, will the Lands Department compensate and it would be my hope, and I know the foreshore committees or the muni­ the hope of members of the Government cipalities for the loss of revenue that and the National Party, and I would would be sustained? I understand that suspect even some members of the 4134 Standing Orders [COUNCIL

Opposition, that the headlines fore­ be tremendous problems for the manu­ shadow the correct turn of events. facturers who produce goods for sale However, 1 am not yet in a position to around Australia-for example, if there confirm the article. My appreciation is were a different size packet of Weeties that it will not be long before an in Victoria from that in New South .announcement is made. Wales, or a box of soap or whatever it might be. Therefore, it is important to MONASH HOUSE have a national standard. The Hon. D. R. WHITE (Doutta Galla There is a national commission on Province) -I direct a question to the packaging, which is working on the de­ Minister for Minerals and Energy, fur­ velopment of national standards. When ther to a question asked by Mr Hay­ these are arrived at, appropriate regu­ ward. Has the State Electricity Com­ lations will be made in Victoria. There mission sold Monash House? If so, to are at least three other States-South whom, and, if it has not already sold Australia, .Queensland and New South Monash House with an arrangement to Wales-which have some regulations. lease back, is it contemplating selling Those regulations will be brought into Monash House in the near future? If line with the national standards so that, so, to whom, and under what arrange­ wherever one goes in Australia, one will ment? have the same size package with the same restrictions or limitations imposed The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister under the regulations. for Minerals and Energy)-I am not aware of any lease-back arrangement PAPER or of any sale of Monash House having being finalized. Certainly, it is one of The following paper, pursuant to the the possibilities which are being looked . direction of an Act of Parliament, was at by the State Electricity Commission, laid on the table by the Clerk: and my information is that it will be National Parks Service-Report for the year the intention of the commission to sell 1980-81. Monash House on a lease-back arrange­ On the motion of the Hon. E. H. ment if a sa tisfactory deal can be WALKER (Melbourne Province), it was arranged. ordered that the report be taken into consideration on the next day of meet­ ing. STANDARDIZED PACKAGING The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Thomastown STANDING ORDERS Province) -Can the Attorney-General The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of explain to the House why his Govern­ Education) -I formally move: ment has taken no action to use the (a) That Standing Orders 311 to 331 in­ powers, made available in the Consumer clusive be repealed, and that the following be Affairs Act 1972, to regulate packaging adopted as Standing Orders of the Legislative and to prevent deception in packaging, Council: and when will his Government take 311. When the Council is in possession of a action to protect Victorian consumers in Bill and its contents have been explained, if this area? the President is of opinion that the Bill is a private Bill, he shall forthwith declare such an The Hon. HADDON STOREY opinion to the Council: Provided that if he (Attorney-General) -These powers, as forms such a view at any later time prior to the second reading question. being decided, he the honourable member says, are in­ shall not be precluded from then declaring cluded in the Consumer Affairs Act 1972. such opinion. 1 understand that, at the time that Act 312. Where a private Bill has not been was passed, there was an order to have ordered to be dealt with as a public Bill, the national standards that would apply President shall, where applicable, cause to be around Australia. One could imagine if published in one or more newspapers, including there is one standard of packaging in one circulating generally in Victoria, a state­ ment of the general nature and objects of the one State and different standards of Bill; and, where any such advertisement has packaging in another State, there would been published, no further debate on the Bill 3 December 1981] Police Regulation (Amendmen.t) Bill 4135 shall be permitted until a report is made by POLICE REGULATION the President pursuant to Standing Order 314 or, where no objections are notified pursuant (AMENDMENT) BILL to Standing Order 313, until the expiration of The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Minister the time provided therein. for Police and Emergency Services)-I 313. Written details of objections by any person or body directly and adversely affected move: by any provisions of a Bill to which Standing That this Bill be now read a second time. Order 312 applies shall be received by the Clerk up to the twenty-first day after the pub­ This Bill effects a number of unrelated lication of a statement pursuant to that Stand­ ing Order, and any objections so received shall amendments to the Police Regulation be notified to the Council by the Clerk during Act with its principal purpose being to formal business at the next sitting, and there­ expedite the hearing of claims by the upon lie on the Table. Police Service Board. 314. Objections received by the Clerk within the specified time shall be considered by a The Police Service Board is currently panel appointed by the President of not less empowered to hear and determine claims than three temporary Chairmen of Committees and a report made to the President as to lodged by the Police Association, the whether, in the opinion of such panel, any such Chief Commissioner of Police or any objection appears to raise matters which would individual member of the Police Force justify the appointment of a select committee in respect of conditions of service,. in­ to examine the proposals in the Bill; and the recommendation of that panel shall thereupon cluding salaries and allowances. The be reported by the President to the Council. board is also empowered to hear and 315. Unless the Council expresses the view determine appeals from members of the that fees should be dispensed with, before any force against the decisions of the Chief private Bill (other than a private Bill which Commissioner or the Police Discipline has been ordered to be dealt with as a public Board in relation to disciplinary matters. Bill) is read a second time, a sum of $1000 shall be paid into the Treasury for the public Honourable members will recall that uses of the State to meet the expenses involved in the passage of the Bill, and a receipt for that the principal Act was amended in the payment shall be produced by .the Member 1980 spring sessional period to create having charge of the Bill. a second division of the board to hear 316. The promoters of any private Bill for appeals thereby enabling the main divi­ which fees under Standing Order 315 have been sion of the board to devote more of its paid shall also be liable for the expenses of- time to the determination of conditions (a) its printing and circulation; of employment claims. (b) the publication of any statement pur­ suant to Standing Order 312; and Whilst this arrangement has assisted (c) any select committee appointed to the board to some degree to deal with examine its proposals- claims it has not had the desired effect and the sum of such amounts shall be paid into of reducing the backlog of claims to an the Treasury for the public uses of the State. acceptable level. This situation is of con­ 317. Subject only to the provisions of Stand­ cern to the Government and to the ing Orders 311 to 316, the proceedings on a Police Association and its members and private Bill shall be governed by the Standing it is apparent that further action is Orders relating to public Bills. required to expedite the hearing of llnd o1aims before the board. (b) That the expression ", not being a petition for a private Bill, or relating to a Consequently, the Bill empowers the private Bill before the Council," in Standing second division of the board to hear Order 258 be omitted. and determine all matters which are I will leave it to the Deputy President, currently within the jurisdiction of the who is the deputy chairman of the main board. Specifically, it provides that Standing Orders Committee, to explain the board may sit concurrently in two it. divisions, each comprised of three full­ On the motion of the Hon. W. M. time members; a County Court judge CA'MPBELL (East Yarra Province), the as chairman, a representative of the debate was adjourned. Government and a representative of the It was ordered that the debate be ad­ Police Force. Provision is made for the journed until later this day. interchange of members between the 4136 Police Regulation (Amendment) Bill [COUNCIL

two divisions in order to maintain con­ which would materially benefit the mem­ sistency of approach in the determina­ bers of the force of which he is the tion of claims and for one of the chair­ leader. In reality, certain claims are men to allocate the business of the board tested by the Government, as is its between the two divisions. right to do, but nowhere in the Act is this specifically stated. The expansion of the capacity of the board to deal with claims can be ex­ In order to remove this apparent con­ pected to reduce the length of delays flict of interest faced by the Chief Com­ currently being experienced. However, missioner, the Bill provides for the where undue delays occur, the Govern­ Crown to make such submissions to ment has accepted the view advanced the board as it sees' fit in relation to by the board and by the Victoria Police any claim lodged with the board there­ Association that some· degree of retro­ by, in effect, designating the Crown as spective application of the board's deter­ the respondent to such claims. minations may be justified beyond the This is not to mean that the Crown current limit of one month. will oppose every claim lodged with Accordingly, the Bill provides that, the board. This has not been the case if the board is of the opinion, having in the past nor will it be in the future, regard to specified criteria, that justice but there are certain claims of major and fair play require that a particular significance which, in the interests of determination should apply retrospec­ the State, it is desirable to test before tively, it may specify a date up to six the board. months before the making of the deter­ Finally, in relation to the Police Ser­ mination from which the determination vice Board, the board will be em­ shall have effect. Where the board con­ powered, at the request of any party to siders that a determination should have . a determination, to provide an inter­ retrospective effect in excess of six pretation of that. determination to months, the Minister will be empowered clarify any pOints in issue. to authorize the board to specify in the I turn to the remaining provisions of determination such operative date be­ the Bill. The first of these is designed yond six months as he determines. to enable Superintendent Fred Silvester The Government is hopeful that these to contribute for superannuation at a provisions will materially assist the rate commensurate with his salary as board to hear and determine claims in Director of the Australian Bureau of as short a time as possible and that, Criminal Intelligence. should delays inadvertently occur in the The bureau was established earlier future, an element of wage justice will this year by the Commonwealth and be granted to the members of the Police the various States' Governments to pro­ Force by enabling the determinations of vide a central repository of criminal in­ the board to operate retrospectively to tel1igenc~ for use by all Australian a greater extent than is currently pro­ police forces. The bureau consists of vided for. a management committee comprised of The Bill also effects two further the police commissioners of the Com­ amendments which relate to the pro­ monwealth, the States and the Northern cedures of the Police Service Board. Territory and a directorate staffed by The Chief Commissioner and the Chair­ members seconded from the various man of the board have both expressed police forces. concern that the Chief Commissioner is Superintendent Silvester, who was seen to be the respondent to claims then Officer in Charge of the Victoria lodged by the Police Association on Police Bureau of· Criminal Intelligence, behalf of the members of the force. was appointed the first director of the The . Chief Commissioner is currently bureau on 11 May 1981. His salary as placed in an invidious position on oc­ director is some $14000 in excess of casions of being seen to raise questions his salary as a superintendent, but he in relation to claims the granting of is not entitled to contribute to the StQtc The Hon. F. J. Granter 3 Decemher 1981] Credit Bill, Goods Bill, Chattel Securities -Bill 4137

Superannuation Fund at a rate greater Indeed. that was the second occasion than that applicable to his substantive upon which the Government adopted rank in the Victoria Police Force. that course. These Bills were first intro­ duced in May 1978, and the Govern­ In order to create such an entitlement, ment then gave an undertaking that it the Bill will empower the Governor in would allow the Bills to stand over Council to appoint to the rank of Assis­ pending the receipt and consideration tant Commissioner any member of the of submissions from the public. Police Force who is seconded to the position of Director of the Australian The redrafted Bills introduced last Bureau of Criminal Intelligence for the session reflected the submissions re­ period of the secondment. Superinten­ ceived with respect to the 1978 Bills. dent Silvester is deemed to have been Since the introduction of the Bills last so appointed from his date of second­ session further submissions have been ment earlier this year. received, and where time permitted those submissions have also been taken. The final provision in the Bill corrects into account. an oversight in the principal Act which apparently occurred when members of It is clear that the Government could the Police Force became entitled to con­ embark upon an endless process of re­ tribute to the State Superannuation drafting in the light of public submis­ Fund in 1963. Whilst provision for sions. However. it appears that the retirement on the ground of ill-health views expressed with respect to this existed for all members prior to that legislation are becoming polarized and date, such members being contributors the possibility of satisfying all is appar­ to the Police Pensions Fund, no such ently remote. In those circumstances it provision was inserted in the legislation is the Government's wish to enact this to apply to those members who elected legislation and to monitor its operation to transfer to the State Superannuation in a practical rather than hypothetical Fund. The Bill. therefore, clarifies the environment. power of the chief commissioner to approve of the retirement of members Members may recall that the object on the ground of ill-health. of this legislation was to achieve uni­ formity throughout Australia in this On the motion of the Hon. R. J. EDDY field of the law. Victoria and New South (Thomastown Province) , the debate was Wales have made the running. so to adjourned. speak, in that legislation has been drafted here and in New South Wales It was ordered that the debate be and a very high degree of uniformity adjourned until the next day of meet­ has been achieved. I think that it is fair ing. to say that the other States are awaiting the enactment of this legislation here CREDIT BILL and in New South Wales before follow­ GOODS (SALES AND LEASES) BILL ing suit. CHATTEL SECURITIES BILL It will, of course, be obvious to mem­ The Hon. HADDON STOREY bers who have an understanding of the (Attorney-General) -I move: credit industry that State boundaries mean very little to an industry as large That these Bills be now read a second time. as this one, dealing in a commodity Honourable members will recall that which touches the lives of us all at one this package of three Bills was intro­ time or another. It is an industry which duced during the last session of Parlia­ despera tely needs uniform guidelines ment. and the Government was willing and restraints for the benefit of the to allow them to remain in the House industry and consumer alike. at the end of that session to enable the Any attempt to achieve uniform legis­ Opposition to have further time to con­ lation is both a difficult and time con­ sider this important legislation. suming exercise. Such has been the case 4138 Credit Bill, Goods Bill, Chattel Securities Bill [COUNCIL

with these Bills. The provisions con­ (c) to apply in an extensive and tained in these Bills have been the sub­ sophisticated way the type of regula­ ject of many and long discussions be­ tion and protection to all forms of credit; tween Ministers and officers here and and in New South Wales. Any changes to (d) to make provision for the dis­ the Bills in the Parliament may of course closure of the actual cost of credit in tend to destroy the uniformity thus far dollars and cents and in the form of achieved and I would urge members to a statutorily determined annual per­ bear that factor in mind if drafting centage rate. As the basis for determin­ changes are proposed. ing that rate will be the same in respect When last introduced, the second­ of all forms of credit, it will be possible reading speech dealt in detail with the to compare the cost of credit no matter ba~kground to the legislation and the what form the offer of the credit takes. content of the Bills themselves. I do not propose to redeliver that speech. CHA TIEL SECURITIES BILL Members who wish to read it will find it To provide a system for the registra­ in Hansard of 30 April 1981 at page tion of proprietary interests in goods, 7996 and following pages. primarily motor .cars, and to enable, in As I have said, some changes have specified circumstances, a bona fide pur­ been made since last session, but they chaser for value, and without notice of have been changes of detail and the a pre-existing security interest, to general principles of the Bills remain acquire a good title to such goods, not­ as before. I have little doubt that other withstanding that pre-existing interest. changes in matters of detail could be undertaken, but in the Government's GOODS (SALES AND LEASES) BILL view it is more important that the To make special provision for protec­ changes in the law which this proposed tion under the Goods Act 1958 for what legislation will achieve should be passed might roughly be described as consumer by the Parliament in order to give the transactions, that is transactions involv­ industry, the consumers and the admin­ ing goods and services of a value of not istration time to prepare for the imple­ more than $15000, by incorporating into mentation of these provisions. such sales and leases new provisions relating to fitness and quality of the PRINCIPLES OF THE BILLS goods and services, which cannot be excluded by the supplier. It is I think pertinent to remind members of the general principles upon which the Bills are based. They are as CREDIT BILL follows: This is by far the largest of the three Bills and its provisions will make some CREDIT BILL fundamental changes to the law relat­ ing to the provision of credit. If the Bill (a) To establish a qualified and effec­ could be said to have a single objective tive administration to supervise the that would be to provide the credit con­ credit industry through an over-all sumer, that is to say, the man or woman licensing system for persons who pro­ in the street, with better and more vide credit under credit sales, or who accurate information as to any credit make loans at rates exceeding 14 per transaction he or she enters into, and cent, and to assist users of credit who with a more satisfactory and accessible may encounter difficulties or problems range of options if., for good reason, he in the use of credit; or she cannot meet the obligations .. (b) to equate all the various forms under which credit may be provided so SALES that the rules applicable will be essen­ Two changes of substance have been tially the same and will govern the sub­ made to Part 11 of the Bill. In clause 24 stance rather than the form of the trans­ (2) the defence available to linked action; credit providers has been extended to The Hon. Haddon Storey 3 December 1981] Credit Bill, Goods Bill, Chattel Securities Bill 4139 include circumstances in which a linked in clause 5 (1), and sub-clause (3) (a) credit provider can prove that it had no excludes the credit charge in calculating reason to suspect the default of the the monetary limit; supplier. Clause 24 (13) is a new provi­ (d) Clause 75, which permits a mu­ sion relating to the subrogation of a tual variation of a contract or loan, has linked credit provider. been revised and expanded in accord­ ance with the New South Wales Bill; LICENSING and The following changes have been (e) Clause 81 now includes a penalty made with respect to the licensing pro­ for non-compliance. visions of the Bill: PROPERTY MORTGAGES (a) In section 197 (1) (b) the period Two substantial changes have been of imprisonment imposed upon an appli­ made to Part IV of the Bill: cant which might preclude him or her from holding a licence under the Act (a) Clause 93 limits the application has been reduced from three years to of the part to property mortgages, to three months; the extent that they secure payment of a debt; (b) clause 202 has been amended so as to preclude a person from providing (b) in clause 97 the penalty has been credit in partnership with a person who increased from $500 to $1000. is neither licensed, nor exempted from CONTRACTS OF GUARANTEE holding a licence; Clause 141 (1) has been changed to (c) clauses 204 and 205 of the April enable a credit provider to bring pro­ 1981 Bill, which require a licensee to ceedings against a guarantor where, notify changes of address at which the (a) where he has obtained judgment licensee carries on business, have been against the debtor; and (b) the judg- omitted so as to afford uniformity with ment has been unsatisfied for thirty the New South Wales Bill. The retained days. Clause 146 now includes a pen­ clauses have been renumbered. alty for the inclusion of void provisions in an agreement. REGULATED CREDIT CONTRACTS A number of changes have been made GENERAL PROVISIONS to Part III of the Bill and are designed (a) In clause 150 (4) and (5) the to make the legislation more practicable Credit Tribunal has been substituted for and to accord a higher degree of unifor­ the Director of Consumer Affairs; mity with the New South Wales legis­ (b) clause 154 contains a minor lation: change with respect to the service of (a) Clause 31 (1) and (2), which documents by post; provide for the printing of a warning (c) the general penalty under the Bill notice on credit contracts, have been is increased from $200 to $'500 in clause amended to accord with the New South 157; Wales Bill. (cl) the Consumer Affairs Council (b) Clauses 49, 50, 51, 72, and 73 may now 'make recommendations either have been revised to accord with the to the director or to the Minister under New South Wales Bill in providing for clause 163 (1) (b); the disclosure of details of insurance contracts, and limiting requests for (e) clause 164 (1) specifically em­ copies of contracts; powers the director to take proceedings for offences under the Act. (c) Clause 54 contains two changes. In 54 (1) (b) (ii) the period of three If the Credit Bill is passed by the months has been changed to four Parliament, it will of course be neces­ months consistently with the amend­ sary to pass legislation making conse­ ment of the definition of "credit sale" quential a'mendments to other Acts. 4140 Credit Bill, Goods Bill, Chattel Securities Bill [COUNCIL

GOODS (SALES AND LEASES) BILL rights that a buyer may have had. The pro­ AND CHATIEL SECURITIES BILL vision has been agreed with New South Wales. Clause 31 (1) and (2) have been amended A small number of changes have been to provide for the necessary notice to be given made to these Bills which do not alter on the prescribed form. The amendment has the substance of the Bills and the ex­ been agreed with New South Wales. planation given when they were last Clauses 49. 50 and 51 have been revised and a~reed with New South Wales and now pro­ introduced. For that reason I do not VIde for the giving of details of insurance propose to. refer to them' other than to contracts and a limitation on the frequency direct members' attention to the list of of requests for copies of contracts. changes to ali three Bills which has Clause 54 (1) (b) has an amendment similar been circulated with these notes, and to that made to the interpretation of "Credit sale" to cover the retail practice of billing I seek leave to have that list incorpor­ accounts between three and four months. ated in Hansard as part of this speech. Clause 54 (3). in common with New South Leave was granted, and the list was Wales. now excludes the amount of credit charges from the calculation of the monetary as follows: limit for the application of the continuing NOTES ON CHANGES MADE TO THE credit contract provisions. BILLS INTRODUCED IN THE LAST SESSION ON 30 APRIL 1981 Clauses 66 (5), 67 and 68 include small amendments that will make the operation of CREDIT BILLS the provisions more practicable. Clause 4 (1) has been amended to include Clauses 72 and 73 are revised in a manner transitional provisions for store credit agree­ similar to the revisions of clauses 49 and 50. ments. Clause 75 has been expanded to permit the Clause 5: form of variation of credit sales and loans "Commercial vehile" has been replaced with proposed under the New South Wales Bill. a new interpretation that has been agreed Clause 81 now includes a penalty provision with New South Wales. and is agreed with New South Wales. "Credit" has been revised so that it incor­ Clauses 93 and 95 include technical amend­ porates in the interpretation the exemp­ ments restricting the application of the pro­ tions for certain forms of commercial visions to property mortgages to the necessary credit. The interpretations of "credit" are extent. now uniform in the Victorian and New South Wales Bills. Clause 97 has an increased penalty in line with New South Wales. "Credit sale" now refers to a four month, instead of a three month, period in order Clause 108 has been revised so that the to exempt the retail practice of billing credit provider is required to give details of three-month interest free acounts within the calculation of the net balance only where a period of three to four months. the debtor requests the particulars and is "Statutory rebate" now includes provision exempted from the need to comply with a for rebate of certain insurance charges. request at excessively frequent intervals. Clause 15 (1) has been amended ex~ressly Clause 110 has technical amendments. to exclude agreements for the proviSIon of Clause 111 (3) has been exyanded to make store credit certificates from the interpretation provision for the disclosure 0 any additional of "Credit sale". prescribed information in a notice of intention Clause 19 (1) has been expanded to exempt to exercise rights under a mortgage. bodies corporate from the provisions of Part Clause 114 has been expanded as agreed 11., as well as of other Parts. with New South Wales to provide that the Clause 19 (3) has been altered to make it restriction on taking possession does not apply clear that the provisions of the Bill apply to where the mortgagor deals or attempts to credit sales and continuing redit contracts deal with the goods in contravention of the entered into by banks and pastoral finance mortgage. companies, as well as term loans. Clause 116 has been revised and agreed with New South Wales. The mortgagee is Clause 24 (2) now includes an expanded now required before selling property that he defence provision for linked credit providers has repossessed to give notice to the mort­ under which they will not be liable if they gagor specifying his estimated value· of the prove that they had had no reason to sus­ goods and is then required to account to the pect the likely default of the supplier. The mortgagor for a sum that is not less than that prOvision has been agreed with New South estimated value. Provision is also made for Wales. the goods to be offered for sale to a person Clause 24 (13) is a new provision sub­ introduced by the mortgagor. rogating a linked credit provider who is held Clause 117 has technical amendments and liable for the default of a supplier to any is agreed with New South Wales. The Hon. Haddon Storey 3 DeceInber 1981] Port of Portland Authority Bill 4141

Clause 118 is now expressed in a revised CHATTEL SECURITIES BILL form and is agreed with New South Wales. Clause 1 (2) is amended to enable progress­ Clause 119 (4) restricts the application of ive proclamation as it is probable that parts of the provision for relief to farmers to persons Part Ill. will be brought into operation in ad­ whose sole or main business is the business vance of the remainder of the Bill. of farming. Clause 2 (4) is a new proviSion providing Clause 135 is amended to permit the credit that where a person would but for the enact­ provider to pay amounts due to insurers as ment of the Act have notice of a secured soon as practicable. interest in a fixture, he has such notice for Clause 141 (1) is amended as agreed with the purposes of the Blll. New South Wales to enable the credit pro­ Clause 7 (8) includes a provision protecting vider to bring the proceedings against a guar­ a mortgagee's interest in goods affixed to land antor where he has obtained judgment against between the date of the offer to enter into the the debtor and the judgment has remained mortgage or other secured interest but before unsatisfied for 30 days. the mortgage or agreement is completed. Clause 146 has been amended to include a Clauses 8, 9, 10 and 11 have a number of penalty. technical amendments to- Clause 150 now provides for the Tribunal (a) remove any possible implication that instead of the Director to give the opinions "purchaser" has a limited meaning; referred to in the clause. (b) include references to "purported" as Clause 154 is amended to provide that docu­ well as actual purchases; and ments are deemed to be duly delivered in the ( c) remove any ambiguity in the refer­ ordinary course of post unless the contrary ences to interest. is proved. Clause 23 is a new provision which will Clause 157 (2) increases the general penalty enable a purchaser to rely on a certificate under the Act. issued to a dealer and take free of any security Clause 163 (1) now enables the Consumer interest of the dealer registered after the cer­ Affairs Council to make recommendations tificate is issued. either to the Director or to the Minister, in­ Clause 30 in the April Bill which amended cluding recommendations for amendment of the Stamps Act, has been omitted and the the Act. provision included in another Bill amending Clause 164 (1) is expanded to enable the that Act. Director to take proceedings for an offence under the Act. GOODS (SALES AND LEASES) BILL Clause 197 is amended to correct the refer­ New sections 98, 99 and 100 are amended to ence to the disqualifying period of imprison­ incorporate more correct terminology in re­ ment in relation to offences involving fraud or lation to the discharge of contracts. dishonesty. The relevant period is three months. New section 99 (2) has a revision of the provision qualifying the circumstances in which Clause 202 is amended to prohibit the a buyer is not to -be deemed to have accepted licensee carrying on a business of providing goods. credit under regulated credit contracts in part­ nership with an unlicensed (or non exempt) New section 110 (2) is revised and now credit provider. sets out more clearly the circumstances under which a purported rescission or discharge of Clauses 204 and 205, from the April Bill, a contract has effect. are omitted with the result that it is no longer necessary for a licensee to notify addresses of The Hon. HADDON STOREY-I new places of business. thank the House. I commend these Schedule 1 is amended to apply in the Bills to the House accordingly. formula for the calculation of the accrued credit charge a maximum of 260 equal instal­ On the motion of the Hon. D. R. ments and periods of intervals between instal­ WHITE (Doutta Galla Province), the ments of one month or a period not exceeding debate was adjourned. four weeks. It was ordered that the debate be ad­ Schedule 2 includes technical corrections in relation to the passage between paragraphs journed until later this day. (c) and (d) and in relation to the disclosure of insurance premiums. PORT OF PORTLAND AUTHORITY Schedule 4 contains changes corresponding BILL to those made to Schedule 2. The debate (adjourned from Schedule 7 has technical amendments in November 24) on the motion of the paragraphs (d) and (j) and an amendment in paragraph (c) relating to insurance pre­ Hon. D. G. Crozier (Minister for miums corresponding to the amendment made Minerals and Energy) for the second to Schedule 2. reading of this Bill was resumed. 4142 Port of Portland Authority Bill [COUNCIL

The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE business organizations in the Portland area; and (ii) one to be appointed from a panel of (Geelong Provin~e)-T.his Bill is simi.lar names nominated by the South Western Trades to the Bill dealIng with the renammg and Labour Council; and of the Geelong Harbor Trust to, the (b) two shall be elected by the ratepayers Port of Geelong Authority, which was of the Town of Portland and the Shire of debated by the House last night. The Portland". Opposition does not oppose the measure. As was the case with the Gee­ I shall not go through all the arguments long BiU, one of the main purposes of I put forward in the extensive debate the measure is to change the name of which took place last night. The Gov­ the Portland Harbor Trust to the Port ernment failed to heed those arguments. of Portland Authority, to bring it into I believe the arguments I advanced line with most other port establishments were valid and, to my mind and that not only in Australia but also through­ of other people, the arguments put for­ out the world. ward on behalf of the Government were The Bill also provides for an increase not satisfactory. Three Government in borrowing powers for the authority appointees is not sufficient for repre­ and will empower the commissioners sentation on the authority. It is all to undertake more extensive works. The very well to argue about whether or not Portland Harbor Trust is a rela tively people carry out their job efficiently. new authority and it had its inception One could have a harbor trust com­ in 1949, when the Victorian Parliament mission with only one commissioner passed a Bill introduced by the then provided that the right man was chosen 'Premier, Mr Holloway. The Act was for the job. By increasing the number proclaimed in 1951, and in 1952 con­ of commissioners and the representa­ -struction of the port began. Naturally, tion they give, one can improve the port activities had taken place in the authority. area prior to this. As all honourable The situation is similar to that which members would be aware the port of exists in this place. It would be a ter­ Portland is of considerable historical rible Parliament if the House consisted significance because it was the first area of only barristers and solicitors, or of proper settlement in this State. The plumbers for that matter, although area has an interesting history of which plumbers would be better than solici­ .all Victorians should be justifiably tors! I would not like to see that situ­ proud. Portland is the centre of the ation because it would not be for the Western District and at that time the good of Parliament. The same applies ·Government quite logically considered to a port authority. It is important that that the scope of the area ought to be there is a wide distribution of exper­ increased not only in the area of the tise and opinion. The authority does Portland Harbor Trust but also in trying not have to consist of people with an to encourage adidtional development, intricate knowledge of the port. Any employment possibilities and decentrali­ person with a certain degree of interest zation. No one would disagree with can make a contribution because he or those aspirations. she can manage to examine matters in Although the Labor Party does not a different light and is not hidebound by oppose t~e Bill, since it is before the any particular thinking. I have heard House the opportunity of mOving an debates in this House between some amendment should be taken. I move, members with legal training and others as an amendment: . without and those without legal train­ That all the words after "That" be omitted ing have often won by putting forward with the view of inserting in place thereof valid arguments. If that does not always uthis Bill be withdrawn and redrafted to in­ crease the number of Commissioners of the happen in practice at least that is the proposed Port of Portland Authority to five, theory. of which: (a) three shall be appointed by the Governor If the Government were to increase in Council, including-(i) one to be appointed the representation on the authority it from a pan~1 of names nominated by recognized would have a good chance of improving 3 Decemher 1981] Port of Portland Authority Bill 4143

the running of its activities. If the Gov­ The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I am ernment drew the commissioners of the trying to keep it to a minimum and authority from a representative group, keep it to those people most directly this would be in line with procedures involved. adopted elsewhere in Australia. The The Hon. W. R. Baxter-The wool Government usually appoints the chair­ and wheat growers have as much in­ man of the authority, and this can be volvement as anyone else. a full-time role. I am inclined to think that this is a good idea. The chairman The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-They could be appointed by the Government have an opportunity with their repre­ and the various recognized business sentatives in the business houses. There organizations in the Portland area could is nothing to stop one of them from nominate a commissioner. As I argued standing and being elected as a member last night, it is important to have a rep­ of the authority by the people of Port­ resentative from the Trades Hall Coun­ land. They have a right to nominate cil to represent the trade union move­ and be elected, and there is no reason ment. why a member could not represent the ratepayers of Portland or the Town of One of the arguments put forward to Portland while living outside the refute that argument i~ that industrial district, as has been suggested. There trouble has been experienced in the is no reason why such a person could authorities which have trade union rep­ not stand. The amendment leaves that resentation. I cannot argue against that. However, it is possible that there may open. have been considerably more industrial I believe the amendment would pro­ trouble if the trade union movement vide for a better and more democratic had not been represented on those auth­ authority. I understand that the Minister orities. The Government cannot refute has some views about democratically that point because it is an unknown elected governments and their right to element. govern, but I am sure even he would agree that people in the Portland area Even if all the commissioners repre­ should have a right to some say on this sented the trade union movement I could port authority which plays a vital part not say that strikes would not take place. However, this would lessen the in their lives. possibility somewhat. As honourable Reverting to what Mr Baxter said, members On both sides of the House the indirect employment associated have pointed out, waterfront stoppages with the port is represented by a multi­ are detrimental to the community gen­ plier of about 2·4, so that for every -erally, not only to those involved in person directly employed in port importing and exporting businesses but activity another 2·4 people are in­ also those indirectly affected by port directly involved. Those people, too, are activities. Any move that the Govern­ entitled to have a say in the running of ment might take towards ensuring in­ the operation which is vital to their dustrial peace, especially in the ports, livelihood. I therefore argue for the would be a move in the right direction. amendment that the Bill be withdrawn As with the debate last night con­ so that the propositions I have advanced cerning the Port of Geelong Authority, can be taken up by the Government. the Labor Party believes that the The Hon. D. G. CROZIER (Minister ordinary people in the district who use for Minerals and Energy)-Although I the foreshore facilities under the juris­ was not present during the debate on diction of the authority should also have the Port of Geelong Authority Bill last a say. Two municipalities are involved night, I understand that the arguments ·-the Shire of Portland and the Town advanced today by Mr Mackenzie are ·of Portland. similar to those advanced last night per­ The Hon. W. R. Baxter-What about taining to the structure of the Port of Dundas? Geelong Authority. 4144 Port of Portland Authority Bill [COUNCIL By interjection, Mr Baxter asked Mr sheep trade and the stimulus of other Mackenzie why two of the proposed trades and with the prospect of a major elected members should be confined to industry, Alcoa of Austraila Ltd, which the Shire of Portland and the town of will use the port both for the import of Portland, and I echo that criticism. If raw material and the export of its fin­ there is to be this type of authority, that ished product, it is more than ever evi­ would be unrealistic, and it is totally dent and necessary that the port man­ ill-informed to deny the existence of a a·gement should be in professional wide hinterland of interest. hands. Even if this amendment were I do not believe any criticism ought acceptable to the Government-and it to be entertained of the professionalism is not-I do not believe this would be and dedication of the three present com­ an appropriate criterion for determining missioners. Were the amendment to be and defining the electoral base of those accepted by the House, I believe it two members. In moving an amendment would amount to tacit acceptance of of this sort, there can be no argument criticism of the performance of the that some criticism is implied, if not present commissioners, and I totally re­ overtly expressed, of the Portland ject that. I believe the Portland Harbor Harbor Trust Commissioners by the Trust-the Port of Portland Authority, advocates of such a change. as it will become-is in good hands. No cogent argument has been advanced for Indeed, the criticism is that the three expanding the authority as suggested. commissioners of th,e present authority Indeed, were the proposal to be accept­ have in some way fallen down on the ed, there would be an automatic con­ job or have done a lesser job than the flict of interest. restructured authority would do if the number of commissioners were in­ It is pertinent, but somewhat ironic, creased to five and if they were to remind the House and Mr Mackenzie appointed or elected in the manner pro­ that at this very 'moment one of the posed. large live sheep carriers is berthed at Portland. Today, after what I under­ I do not want to canvass in this de­ stand was a relatively minor interrup­ bate-I should be taxing your patience tion to that process, the loading of live if I attempted to do so, Mr President­ sheep will proceed and the ship will some of the relevant background which duly head off for its destination in the has been alluded to in another place Gulf. when this Bill was debated there, but undoubtedly the record of the Portland One can imagine the conflict that Harbor Trust Com'missioners has been would arise if the House agreed that enviable, starting off with the first there ought to be a representative of chairman of the trust, Mr Keith Ander­ the South Western Trades and Labour son. who is justifiably regarded almost Council on the authority. The council as a legend in his own time. Recently, has been adama'nt and vehement in its his history of the port was launched by criticism of this vital export industry the Prime Minister with suitable acclaim and all it means, not only to placing an and ceremony, a,nd that in itself is a re- effective floor in the sheep industry but, markable tribute to one man's determin­ indeed, underpinning the red meat mar­ ation and dedication. Mr Anderson was ket in this country, and I do not think assisted by other dedicated colleagues there ought to be any serious doubt or and, following him, Mr Jarrett took disputation about the importance of over as chairman, and following Mr that trade. Were the House to accept Jarrett we now have Mr Sweetland. this amendment, it would be automatic­ Many improvements have been made ally accepting that there ought to be a over the years to the facilities of the representative of the South Western Portland harbour. Indeed, with the dec­ Trades and Labour Council on the laration of Portland as a natural ter­ authority. The council has declared its minal grain port, the advent of the live opposition to that trade, no doubt sup- The Hon. D. G. Crozier 3 December 1981] Port of Portland Authority Bill 4145 ported by its colleagues on the Opposi­ authority is in good hands and no change tion benches who have done all in their should be made to either the size or power to back the heavy-handed hier­ the selection of that particular body of archy of the Australasian Meat Indus­ management. try Employees Union to torpedo this The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North trade and sabotage it. Eastern Province ) -The Bill has similar The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-You could aims to one that the House debated last finish up with Wally Curran on the evening. I do not intend to traverse the authority! arguments I advanced on that occasion The Hon. D. G. CROZIER-That on the importance of efficient ports to would perhaps be the ultimate projec­ an exporting nation like Australia. tion of this proposal, and I should think Mr Mackenzie expressed some dismay that that would vividly illustrate the that his arguments last evening on a sort of conflict which would arise, similar Bill failed to sway the House, whether Mr Curran or some member of and today he has again moved a similar the South Western Trades and Labour amendment. Mr Mackenzie did not pro­ Council, which would support Mr Cur­ duce any fresh evidence today on why ran and his union's policies, were the the House should be persuaded in this person apPointed. instance. I am unable to assist Mr Mac­ The Port of Portland Authority, as it kenzie in his argument that the House will become, and the commissioners of should adopt the amendment. It would the present Portland Harbor Trust have be a step in the wrong direction if the materially assisted the advancement of House did accept the amendment. this enormously important trade. It is However, I want to expand on the a trade that has far reaching ramifica­ remarks made by the Minister for Min­ tions for not only the export earnings erals and Energy on the importance of of Australia but also for the viability the live sheep export trade not only to of one of Australia's major export indus­ the port of Portland but to the economy tries. If the amendment were adopted, of western Victoria in particular and to· it would mean that this body would be Victoria as a whole and South Australia fragmented by definition and frag­ and the Riverina. mented by its structure. That would be a complete inconsistency. It is pleasing to note that the loading of the Danny F is proceeding without The aim of any management body too much difficulty, although I under­ must be to promote the well being of stand a picket line is operating today. that particular organization. The Port It is distressing that union members­ of Portland Authority, through the Port­ meat workers-who, in many cases, are land Harbor Trust· Commissioners and genuine citizens, are being led by a their general maanger and his staff, union leadership that is producing an would stand comparison with any illogical argument for consumption. organization anywhere in Australia. The There is no doubt that a viable and authority is poised on the threshold of thriving export trade of live sheep from a new era of expansion and ·importance. Victoria would create more jobs not only I want to make it plain that the present for meat workers but also for the com­ commissioners have the full confidence munity. of the Government in the imposing task Farmers are not bad businessmen. If that faces them. I am confident that the there is no money in a particular in­ commissioners will meet these demands dustry, farmers change their activities in the same dedicated fashion that they to another branch of primary produc­ have met previous challenges. tion. There has been no recent pur­ Therefore, the situation would not be chase of sheep for the live sheep export assisted by the adoption of the amend­ trade, so the bottom has fallen out of ment. The Government does not admit the market. Hence, farmers have diver­ that there is any valid criticism of the sified to cattle, grain growing, pasture performance of the commissioners. The seeds and so on. If there is a viable 4146 Port of Portland Authority Bill [COUNCIL

live sheep export trade and prices are Farmers would much prefer to have their sheep killed on Australian soil but why should kept at a profitable level, farmers in­ they be called on to subsidise meat companies crease their flock numbers of sheep, and unionists to the tune of $10 a head for which creates more jobs for meat their sheep and run the risk of pig meat and workers and. those employees of the beef collapsing as well. shearing industry. For example, the The remarks made in that editorial are live sheep export trade requires sheep pertinent. to have skins of less than half an inch. The trade creates jobs in the transport The Hon. B. P. Dunn-It is a good industry for the carriage of sheep from newspaper. all over the State to Portland. The trade creates jobs in the provision of feed for The Hon. W. R. BAXTER-Indeed. hundreds of thousands of sheep and the If the average rank and file union mem­ holding yards at Cape Nelson. ber sat down and thought about the matter and did not let himself be har­ The live sheep export trade can be angued by the power drunk hierarchy to the benefit of not only the meat of his union, there would be less sup­ workers but also the community of port· for some of the activites that have Portland and Victoria generally. I was occurred in Portland. disappointed to read in last week's edition of the Stock and Land of 26 I want to traverse the matter of the November that, not only the Austral­ conditions in which sheep travel for asian Meat Industry Employees Union export. Allegations of cruelty have been was protesting about live sheep exports, made. It should be on the record that but also T. A. Borthwick & Son Pty there is ample evidence that sheep gain Ltd. That company has no right to weight on the trip from Portland to adopt that attitude. That company has the Middle East. Sheep that are either been in existence for 100 years and it under stress or suffer cruelty do not has made some tough commercial increase in body weight. It is in the decisions in the past. That is its right. interests of the exporter to ensure good However, that company should not now conditions for the export of sheep. I suggest that farmers, in some way, have inspected two of the ships at Port­ should be denied the ultimate and best land and I was amazed at the cleanli­ return on their product merely to keep ness of the sheep and the conditions Borthwick's plant operating. I quote that exist on those ships. There was from the editorial of the Stock and Land no indication that those ships had ever of 26 November this year. It states: carried sheep before. Those ships were Borthwick's call for Governments to limit well prepared and clean. It goes with­ the live sheep trade is unlikely to find much out saying that there is no cruelty in­ support. volved in the export of live sheep. Why should farmers be restricted in market There is some urgency for the upgrad­ outlets? As long as we live in a free enter­ prise system, then farmers like other business­ ing of the wheat outloading facilities men, or for that matter unionists, should be at Portland. Those facilities are pres­ able to sell the fruit of their labour to the ently below the international standard. highest bidder. As a result ships are delayed at Port­ Why should farmers be asked to carry the land for many days whilst loading pro­ burden of trying to get a multi-national meat ceeds because of the load capacity of company out of the red or provide what are the elevators and conveyors. Portland really welfare payments to unionists?' is a natural grain outlet for the premier Borthwick's closure and the meat workers wheat· growing areas in the Wimmera stand, not to allow sheep to be shipped from Portland led to a loss of lobs in Victoria and Mallee and it can only be to the ad­ and lost orders for sheep, as the shipments vantage of the State for those facilities were diverted to Adelaide.. to be brought up to date and more in line with what is available at other ex­ If Borthwick's or the union believe there is port ports in the world. I echo the Min­ a market for frozen or chilled mutton then let them find one which will return· farmers a ister's remarks on the efficiency of the decent price.- port of Portland. It has worked w·ell and The Hon. W. R. Baxter 3 December 1981] Liquor Control (Amendment) Bill 4147 has tremendous potential. I hope. the The Bill effectively ensures that Bill facilitates the realization of that people who come under the new code in potential. the production of heavy vehicles will The House divided on the question .abide by the decision of the Govern­ that the words proposed by Mr Mac­ ment that any vehicles built and oper­ kenzie to be omitted stand part of the ated after 1 July 1985 will conform to motion (the Hon. F. S. Grimwade in the standards determined under the new the chair). Act which was previously passed. The Opposition does not oppose the Bill. Ayes 26 Noes.. 11 The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a second time, and Majority against the passed through its remaining stages. amendment 15 AYES LIQUOR CONTROL (AMENDMENT) Mr Baxter Mr Knowles BILL Mrs Baylor Mr Lawson The debate (adjourned from Decem­ Mr Block Mr Long ber 2) on the motion of the Hon. Haddon Mr Bubb Mr Radford Mr Campbell Mr Reid Storey (Attorney-General) for the Mr Crozier Mr Saltmarsh second reading of this Bill was resumed. Mr Dunn Mr Stacey , Mr Evans Mr Storey The Hon. R. J. EDDY {Thomastown Mr Granter Mr Ward Province) -The Bill corrects situations Mr Hamilton Mr Wright which were unintentionally created by Mr Hauser Mr Hayward Tellers: the 1980 amendments. It makes certain Mr Houghton Mr Chamberlain amendments to the Liquor Control Act Mr Jenkins Mr Taylor to allow ships providors to be licensed NOES to serve liquor in ships and to provide Mr Butler Mr Sgro for the sale of liquor. There has been Mrs Coxsedge Mr Walker some difficulty because of the limited Mr Eddy Mr White space on the vessels and the storage Mr Kennedy Tellers: problems. The ships providors have been Mr Kent Mr Trayling expected to provide space and store Mr Mackenzie Mr Walton liquor in the same way as people in PAIRS retail liquor shops. Or Foley Mr Thomas Mr Hunt Mr Landeryou The Bill also enables ships providors to be licensed if tbey wish to sell liquor The motion was agreed to. on the ship. I believe the Government The Bill was read a second time, and is acting correctly in this regard. An passed through its remaining stages. industrial problem could arise regard­ ing the sale of liquor on construction MOTOR CAR (MASS AND DIMENSION sites. Under the 1980 Act it was not LIMITS) (AMENDMENT) BILL permissible to sell liquor on those sites, The debate (adjourned from Decem­ but honourable members appreciate that ber 2) on the motion of the Hon. Glyn the sale of liquor on construction sites Jenkins (Minister of Water Supply) for helps to maintain industrial harmony. the second reading of this Bill was resumed. Another amendment contained in the The Hon. G. A. S. BUTLER (Thomas­ Bill provides that wholesale liquor mer­ town Province)-I do not intend to be chants may carry out liquor tastings. I long except to say that this Bill arises have much pleasure in supporting the from a Bill which was passed earlier by Bill on behalf of the Opposition. the House. It has evidently come to the The motion was agreed to. attention of the Minister that he must proclaim the Act in total rather than in The Bill was read a second time, and part. passed through its remaining stages. 4148 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL

WORKS AND SERVICES In the past couple of years the Pub­ APPROPRIATION BILL lic Works Department put forward several papers to be read in conjunction The debate (adjourned from Novem­ with this Bill, but that has not been ber 25) on the motion of the Hon. Glyn done this year and it is a pity. Those Jenkins (Minister of Water Supply) for papers gave an indication of how the the second reading of this Bill was money was to be spent and what the resumed. priorities were. It also gave a picture The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE of the state of the construction indus­ (Geelong Province) -This is probably try. I would like associated literature one of the most important Bills to come so that honourable members can have before the House each year. With the an understanding of the extent of this Appropriation Bill, it is one of the major work. This is a good document, but I items of expenditure of the Government, still have difficulty in following it. Any covering an amount of $457 million. It document covering an enormous amount always seems a pity that a Bill of such of money must be complex, but it could magnitude is introduced during the clos­ still be simplified to a great degree. ing stages of the sessional period. Last year I believe the Bill was introduced One cannot read this Bill without be­ on the second-last day. ing regretful that again the Government has not taken the advice of a great many All honourable members should be people on the need to stimulate the concerned with this Bill which sets out whole construction area, which is the the expenditure of the State for the basis for a recovery of the economy of works and services programme. Each this State. I believe the construction in­ year the presentation of the Bill im­ dustry has the ability to act as the fine proves, and Dr Foley can be thanked tuner of the economy. I have been in the for much of this because he has con­ construction industry for more than 32 stantly advocated improvement in the years and I have noted that it moves setting out of the Government's Budget very closely to the general economic and the joining together of the total trend-they both influence each other. Works and Services Bill-in other words The public works account has a means works and services coupled with forests, of stimulating the economy from time transport and water supply. It makes it to time when the State is in an economic into a complete works and services depression, as it is now, and the Gov­ pack,age. ernment can trigger the impetus to get the. State moving. Once it does that, it Although the Bill is an improvement, will show people in other States and it leaves a lot to be desired. It is hoped overseas that the State is on the move. that the Government will continue to This has a psychological influence on improve this Bill, because Budget Docu­ businessmen, who believe something is ment No. 3 still does not allow for all being done, that the State has confi­ the works and services capital works. dence in its future, and that the Gov­ The capital works of the semi-major ernment has confidence in its future be­ statutory authorities and the minor cause it is investing additional money to authorities are not included in this Bill. get public works underway. The result Even though this represents' a vast sum is that the whole atmosphere improves. of money, it is only 20 per cent of the Businessmen become confident and they, State's total capital works. I would like in turn, invest in projects, which they to see the day when the Government outlines the whole works programmes may have been reluctant to do before. in such a way that honourable mem­ The whole State starts to move, and it bers can examine what the State is do­ is my party's belief that this is the way ing as a whole, and not only what it is the recovery will come about. doing in this particular area. It is im­ Other people who have studied these portant that this be set out properly, and matters have said the same thing, and I hope the Government will endeavour figures have been issued recently that to do that next year in this Bill. indicate exactly what I am saying. 3 Decemher 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4149

The Foreign Investments Revi~w Account for 1981-82 is $453·4 million; Committee a Commonwealth CommIt­ on page 4, it says that the Wo~ks and tee, review~d the investments of foreign Services Account is $458 milhon; on companies in Australia, and from July page 11, it says $426 million; and this 1980 to June- 1981 the number of foreign Bill says the total amount is $457 investors investing in Victoria numbered million. I do not understand how a Gov­ 137. There was an expected new invest­ ernment that supposedly knows how to ment of $554 million. In Queensland balance books and prides itself on hav­ there is an expected new investment of ing business expertise could provide $1462 million. four different figures. Perhaps the Min­ ister could explain that a little later. The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-How many people invested the $1462 million? One cannot fail to be concerned about the massive underspending that has been The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-The taking place. This has not always been number investing is 124. In New South the pattern. Not so long ago, the Gov­ Wales, there are 377 investing, with an ernment overspent. The Government expected new investment of $1166 mil­ often cries poor and says it cannot pro­ lion. The figure of total expected invest­ vide the funds that are so vitally needed ment in Victoria in the current year is for community projects. There are many $829 million, in Queensland, $1650 mil­ schools that are in an. appalling condi­ lion and in New South Wales $1755 tion and mental retardation services are million. That is an example of what absolutely inadequate. Some of the I am illustrating. Foreign investors see people who need those services are liv­ New South Wales and Queensland as ing in appalling conditions, but the Gov­ being on the move, as being progressive, ernment's cry is, "We have no money", and they have confidence in them. yet the Budget documents reveal that A survey was carried out by the millions of dollars remain unspent. Australian Federation of Construction In 1974-75, the Government over­ Contractors into the capital works pro­ spent by $17 million; and in 1975-76 it gramme on the amounts to be spent on also overspent, but since that time there capital works programmes in all the has been a constant underspendirig. In States over the next five years, from 1976-77,. it underspent by $6·6 million; the current trends and the number of in 1977-78, it was $2·5 million; in 1978- capital works programmes that are com­ 79, the Government underspent by ing up in the future. The federation $5'3 million; the underspending in 1979- has estimated the amount of money to 80 was $7· 56 million; and in 1980-81 be spent in various States over the next the Government underspent by $9·1 five years on non-residential buildings, million. That is the record of a Govern­ that is all buildings apart from housing, ment that is unable to carry out the and in Victoria, over the next five years, business of government in a proper $1488 million will be spent; in New fashion. South Wales $3262 million will be spent, and in Queensland, $2247 million will be The Government has also been dis­ spent. That association put in a great honest when talking about increased deal of research, and it shows the invest­ allocations. When it has suited the Gov­ ment that should be coming to Vic­ ernment to do so, rather than quoting toria is not doing so, simply because the estimate from the previous year, it this Government will not invest in its has quoted the amount that was actually own future. This Bill should have spent, which has created a false picture indicated that the Government had this of increased allocations. In fact, $14 confidence. million of this year's allocation is really I am surprised at the amount of ex­ 3·2 per cent of last year's allocation, pertise the Government has at hand in and the tragedy is that that represents this State. A simple example appears in approximately 1100 jobs. For a Govern­ Budget Paper No. 3, which says, at page ment that is constantly talking about 79, that the total Works and Services trying to do so~ething to alleviate the 4150 Works and Servic;es Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL unemployment problem, that is ridi­ of Melbourne dealing with the economic culous. It is another example of the mis­ impact of public bodies in Victoria, management of Victoria by the Govern­ which was prepared for the Government, ment. indicated that State Government in­ I am sure there would be schools in stitutions, excluding the State Bank, the provinces represented by all honour­ held something like $270 million. The able members that urgently need addi­ Government has failed to make use of tional funding. Even if one went to what those assets. might be called the better suburbs of The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-Not again! Melbourne, one would find many older They are going to spend it again! Tell schools crying out for funds. The same us how you are going to do it. sort of situation applies in the health area, particularly with mental retarda­ The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-It will tion. It is tragic that this should be so. be quite simple. Those assets have been The Labor Party believes job creation lying there for many years. The Govern­ will come to Victoria only through an ment is in a real bind, because if it increased capital works programme and does use those reserves it knows it wiIJ it is not only urgent, it" is imperative, be proved wrong in the eyes of the that the Government should set abou.t community at large because it said em­ creating that programme. Therefore, I phatically in 1979 that the funds were move: not there. They are there, and they can That all the words after "That" be omitted be used. They could be invested in with the view of' inserting in pIece thereof Victoria in a development fund, instead "this House refuses to read this Bill a second of being invested interstate or in other time until th~ methods of raising funds for areas. Such a development fund would works and services are restructured by estab­ lishing a Victorian Development Fund to ensure belong to the people of Victoria and the the level of works and service"s expenditur~ in money could be used for capital works. 1981-82 is at least maintained in real terms".- The statutory bodies would get the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. same return for their money as the W. M. Campbell)-Order! Has the hon­ market rates, but the money would be ourable member provided copies of the used for the benefit of the State. I amendment? should have thought the Government The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-No, would have encouraged them to invest Mr Deputy President. in their own State, but this Bill shows that the Government has no confidence The DEPUTY PRESIDENT-Order! in Victoria. It does not intend to use the That is unfair to other honourable mem­ assets that are lying in these reserves. bers. All honourable members should have been supplied with a copy of 'the The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-Lying where? amendment. The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-They The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE'-I were discovered by people with far more apologize, Sir. It was an oversight on expertise than Mr Jenkins. The Govern­ my part. ment is so pigheaded that it is prepared The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-You will to let Victoria go down the drain be­ have to apologize to your Leader, too. cause of its foolish pride. If it had any He said the Assembly was paramount real sympathy for the people of this on matters of finance. State, it would use those funds as the The Hon. Robert Lawson-This is a Labor Party suggests. money Bill that has been approved by I am not opposing the Bill, I am the Assembly. merely pointing out to the Government The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I am that it should avail itself of a last­ " not saying it is not. There is a need for minute opportunity to get Victoria on a central development fund. The report the go again. That is why I have moved of the Institute of Applied Economic the amendment. The Opposition is not and Social Research at the University voting against a money Bill. 3 Decemher 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4151 The Hon. N. F. Staeey-Come on! when in fact it has not, but, because The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-If Mr of the accounting procedures, that is Stacey read the amendment, even his the indication. dim brain ..might comprehend it. It is in the interests of the community The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the Hon. and in the Government's interest, bear­ W. M. Campbell)-Order! I remind Mr ing in mind the way the Government is Mackenzie that, unfortunately, no hon­ being assailed by the Opposition on this ourable member other than himself has aspect of economic policy, that some had the opportunity of reading that clear statement should be drawn up amendment. setting out preCisely what the position is. I reject many of the suggestions which The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE-I am were made by ,Mr Mackenzie. I think sorry, Mr Deputy President. In view of they were more "pie in the sky" than the fact that time is limited and I have substance. His maverick amendment, made my point, I will withdraw the which has failed to materialize, as the amendment. Having given the Govern­ Minister of Water Supply pointed out, ment its opportunity, I hope it will take was somewhat in contradiction to the note of what has been said in this House. philosophy espoused by his Leader a It is important that members in this week or two ago On the role of the place understand what is going on and Upper House. I think that can be dis­ that the points raised by the Opposition counted here and now. will sink in at least to some extent and provide some impetus. The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON (Higin­ botham Province) -There used to be a By leave, the motion was withdrawn. saying about the Bourbon kings of The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North France, before the last one had his Eastern Province) -I do not want to head chopped off-that the Bourbon deal at any length with the matters kings have experienced everything and raised by Mr Mackenzie, save to say learnt nothing. This is also true of our that there is community concern about opponents. Since the foundation of the points being advanced by members of Labor Party, its members have experi,; the Opposition about the millions of enced everything, all kinds of disasters dollars that are allegedly lying around and very few triumphs, but in that long unutilized in various reserves. It is high period they have learnt nothing. That time some definitive information on the has been proved today by the speech matter was given. made by Mr Mackenzie. Alarming statements have been made Mr Mackenzie is still telling us about in the financial newspapers this week as Wran economics. He says that it is to the parlous condition in which New possible to loot the public utilities in South Wales finds itself, having burnt Victoria and use the moneys so looted up those reserves. If the Auditor­ for socialistic enterprises. We maintain General in New South Wales is even that it has been proved by Mr Wran half right in his assessment of the and his unfortunate recent experiences situation, New South Wales is teetering in New South Wales that this scheme -on the brink of bankruptcy. does not work. I advise members of the Opposition to borrow a copy of the Many of the accounting procedures Auditor-General's report from the Min­ used by statutory authorities in this ister of Water Supply and from it they State are archaic. I do not blame the will learn the truth about Wran eco­ authorities for that. The situation re­ nomics-that it is a recipe for disaster sults from the Acts under which those and it will bring down the State. authorities work, because those Acts require the authorities to show reserves According to the latest report of the as existing that do not exist. To a Auditor-General of New South Wales, person reading the balance-sheet of, say, that State is virtually bankrupt. One some water trust, it often appears that person can be thanked for that state the trust has liquid cash in reserves of affairs and that person is the political ,4152 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL and economic adviser of the Victorian Mr Sakis, also known as Mike Zafiro­ Labor Party; I am referring to Mr Wran. poulos, who work for the Immigration If members of the Opposition cannot and Ethnic Affairs Branch, also work learn from the experience of New for ASIO. South Wales, they will never learn and The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the HOD. they are not fit to be the Government W. M. CampbeU)-If Mrs Coxsedge is ,of Victoria. During the coming months, going to deal with specific matters, people will learn about sharp rises in those matters would be better dealt with costs of various utilities in New South during the Committee stage. In the sec­ Wales such as the hospitals, electricity ond-reading stage of a Bill, the House is ,and other fuels. dealing with the over-all policies of the Honourable members interjecting. Government and the over-all policies ex­ pressed by this Bill. The detail the hon­ The DEPUTY PRESIDENT (the HOD. ourable member is discussing now W. M. CampbeU)-If they continue to should be left to the Committee stage. interject, I will have to tell members of The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE-I will the Opposition about certain Standing accept your advice, Mr Deputy Presi­ Orders. dent, and reserve my comments until The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON-I the Committee stage. plead with members of the Opposition The motion was agreed to. to learn from the experience of the State Government in New South Wales. The The Bill was read a second time and policies that they advocate will not committed. work. They have not worked in the past and they will not work in the future. Clause 1 was agreed to. If the Opposition should become the Clause 2 (Commencement) Government and try to carry out the policies that Mr Mackenzie has been ad­ The HOD. GL YN JENKINS (Minister vocating, this State will be brought to of Water Supply) -I shall respond ruin. briefly to the comments made by Mr Mackenzie about the financial manage­ The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE (Mel­ ment of the capital works programme bourne West Province)-I want to make for Victoria. Like the Labor Party in a few general comment~ on some as­ Victoria, his speech was a rehash of pects of the Bill. Unfortunately, the Bill Labor's grandiose plans to spend and re­ is only too typical of the Liberal Gov~ spend the resources, particularly the ernment's attitude to economic manage­ reserves, of the public authority in this ment. I was going to say "mismanage­ State. ment" of this State, because that is closer to the mark. Honourable members It is relevant to look at the Budget see an endless supply of money for its document on the capital works pro­ window-dressing philosophies but at the gramme of major semi-Government ''Same time there appears to be nothing authorities. 1 refer to page 80 of the in -the State purse for desperately need­ Budget Papers 1981-82, Budget Docu­ 'ed improvements in areas, such as edu­ ment No. 3, which details the Loan cation, public transport and the many Council allocations for the major capital other areas of capital expenditure which' works programmes of the major affect the daily lives of ordinary Vic­ authorities of this State, including the torians. There is a decrease of 7·54 per Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of cent in the education allocation, and Works, the Gas and Fuel Corporation that is serious because for many years and the State Electricity Commission. past the State school system has been In 1980-81 the Australian Loan Council running down. allocation to those major public authori­ ties was $555' 5 million. After the Loan I wish to deal briefly with item 5, Council meeting in June the allocation Immigration and Ethnic Affairs. I am for the current year was $574·9 million concerned that Mr Brian Deschamps and -a very small increase. 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4153 The Premiers of all States strongly accounts prepared by the Treasurer. advocated that there should be a sub­ That document was tabled in the New stantial increC\se in those allocations. South Wales Parliament and a full copy But the Federal Government, as part of is available in the Library. its policy of inhibiting the expenditure of money-particularly loan funds-on One can understand the feeling of the capital works programmes would agree New South Wales Auditor-General when to only a very modest increase. The he was drafting this report: He would States were told, "Go back, review your be concerned about it and take a con­ programmes, assess the charges for ser­ structive and probably conservative atti­ vices by the major authorities and see tude to what he was saying as Auditor­ if you can in some way cut down the General. He was critical of the financial rate of spending on capital works." poliCies of the Wran Government and pointed out, particularly in regard to the In the review following the Loan Metropolitan Sewerage and Drainage Council meeting the Government, ex­ Board, that there was a deficiency in amined every possible area of garnering the board's reserve funds. That is a very funds to be spent in the State. As a important point to note. If Victoria were result of examination and discussion to follow the poliCies advocated by Mr with the major authorities, the actual Mackenzie, that result would be re­ amount coming from other sources to peated in Victoria. That is not respon­ be spent on capital works programmes sible financial management-it is irres­ -that is out of deferred payments, ponsible fairy story stuff. leasing, internal funds and so on-the amount increased from $509· 1 million The same claims will be repeated ad in 1980--81 to $719' 6 million this year. nauseam between now and the next So, for the first time, more money is election .. The Labor Party will trot out being raised by way of deferred pay­ the report of the University of Mel­ ments, leasing, internal funds and other bourne, which is open to question and is revenue sources than the actual Loan now partially out of date. It will con­ Council allocation. stantly refer to the Public Bodies Re­ Obviously the Government is doing view Committee and the aHeged report what it can to gather the funds it can on which the committee has not yet reasonably be expected to gather to in­ made comments. Members of the Labor vest in capital works programmes. The Party will go on to demonstrate that the results have been higher charges for financial resources of this State are mis­ electricity and gas and for almost every managed. other service in this State. That is not happening only in Victoria. It has hap­ What the people of Victoria want to pened in New South Wales. Although know-the ratepayers and the custom­ Premier Wran introduced a modest ers of public authorities-is from whom Budget prior to going to the recent will the Labor Party extract these election, he had hardly began to warm moneys and how they will be managed. the Premier's chair again before there There will be a great deal of concern in was a massive explosion in the charges Victoria about the ALP's airy-fairy levied by all public authorities in New financial policies. South Wales. I assure the Committee that, follow­ Mr Baxter alluded to the method used ing closure of the examination that took by Premier Wran in New South Wales. many weeks, the Treasurer produced the There is no doubt that he has plundered Budget. The Government appreCiates the financial reserves of the public that not enough funds are made avail­ authorities in that State. Anyone who able for capital works. It would like to questions that statement should read the spend another $200 million or $300 mil­ report of the Auditor-General of New lion. As I pointed out, the Bill is a South Wales for the financial year Budget or an appropriation of funds to ended 30 June 1981 on the public be spent over the next twelve months. 4154 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL

In an operation as diverse as there is Having regard to that fact, and in the in Victoria, it is obvious there will be interests of ordered debate, I propose overspending in some area and under­ that any detailed discussion on these spending in another. Mr Mackenzie did specified items in the table be taken not say why there was underspending in conjunction with clause 3, and I ask in education. It may have been due to honourable members to identify the union trouble or industrial action. That item or items they are discussing with can have a profound effect on the clause 3, and I ask honourable members delivery of services. I noted that he was to identify the item or items they are critical this year of the delay in the dup­ discussing. When the debate on the lication of the Geelong railway line. He items is concluded, I will then put the did not say that an internal union dis­ question that clause 3 and the table pute within the factory that manufac­ stand part of the Bill. Clauses 4 to 21 tured the concrete sleepers held up pro­ will then he called in the normal way, duction of the sleepers for some months. but I will not permit debate on those He did not tell us that. All he said was clauses to touch on specific financial that there was an underspending in cer­ allocations in the table, despite such tain areas. He did not explain that what reference appearing in those clauses he was talking about was a very small from time to time. proportion of the total allocation for public works. The Hon. W. R. BAXTER (North Eastern Province) -I shall deal very I do not think the Government has briefly with several aspects contained anything to be ashamed of about its in the table. The first relates to item 1 financial management of this State. If dealing with Parliament. I want to do we followed the Wilkes-now Cain­ my best to encourage the Government document of financial management and to make a financial commitment to­ economic strategy advocated by the wards improving the facilities in this Australian Labor Party, Victoria would place. I feel I can do tha t, perhaps, be headed toward financial disaster. A without appearing to have too much lot of funds would not be spent on of a personal interest in this instance, capital works. There would not be a res­ in that I am one of the few in this ponsible redirection of funds. It would be done in accordance with what the place with, at least, a reasonable office, particular sections of the Australian having one just outside the Chamber, Labor Party deemed to be the most which I share with one other honour­ appropriate course to follow. able member. However, there are many honourable members in this place occu­ I will be very concerned, and I am pying cubby holes which are little sure the people of Victoria will be in­ better than broom cupboards. creasingly concerned as we get nearer the election, about the attitude of the There are Ministers of the Crown, in Opposition on this matter. other words, chief executives of de­ The clause was agreed to. partments spending millions of dollars Clause 3 (Issue and ap},)lication of of taxpayers' money, who occupy small money from Works and Services areas up in the gods. That does not lend Account) itself to the efficient operation of the Government and the Parliament of Vic­ The ACTING CHAIRMAN (the Hon. toria. B. A. Chamberlain)-Order! Before de­ bate on clause 3 commences I ad­ I know of no reason why honourable vise the Committee that this' clause members should be afraid of a public is the general authority for the issue backlash if we at least complete the and application of the several amounts building or at least extend it to make itemized in the table commencing at the facilities better. I am certain that page 9 of the Bill, and therefore those if one approached people in Bourke two provisions of the Bill are inter­ Street and described to them the offices dependent. in which several honourable members 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4155 work in this place, they would not be­ type of equipment which will enable lieve it. I am sure that they believe the -Mount Hotham road to be kept that someone of the calibre and rank trafficable in all but the most blizzard­ of a member Xlf Parliament would not like conditions. work under the absurd conditions that It seems to be absurd that funds have we have here. not been provided for a shed in which In Queensland, the Parliament spent to put the existing equipment. How­ $20 million to provide decent offices ever, a concrete slab was put down for its members. The New South Wales a couple of years ago but there has Parliament spent $48 million on its been no money made available to put a new offices, and the Federal Parlia­ roof over it. I make a plea for the ment is planning to spend more than equipment to be purchased for that $150 million on a new building. All operation. that we need in Victoria is about $3 million or $4 million to enable the The next matter is item 13.3, which building to be completed and perhaps relates to the Soil Conservation Author­ have additions made to enable the effi­ ity. On a previous occasion I paid a ciency of this place to be improved. It tribute to the work of that authority is high time the Government proceeded and I believe it does in fact carry out with this work. Ever since I have been an outstanding job within the resources a member of this place-since 1973- at its disposal. However, I am of the the promise has been made and I dare­ opinion that those resources are far say it was made for years before that. too meagre. The time has come for the work to be I am extremely disappointed that the undertaken. Commonwealth Government has seen I will take the items in order as they fit to absorb into the general revenue appear in the table. I refer first to grant to the State of Victoria the $3 item 4.3-the Tourist Fund-Mount million that was previously allocated Hotham Roads. Admittedly this year we specifically for soil conservation. In my experienced record snow falls and the view that has allowed the Government road from Harrietville to Mount to skate o~t of its responsibilities, to Hotham was closed to all traffic on some extent. more than one occasion, and sometimes I believe one of the most urgent for many days, up to a week, because tasks facing the Soil Conservation of the inability of the antiquated snow Authority is the identification and clearing equipment owned by the delineation of dry land salt. We have Country Roads Board to keep the roads tended to allow ourselves to be over­ free of snow. whelmed by the ravages of salinity re­ I invite honourable members to con­ sulting from irrigation and we have template for a moment on the effect therefore overlooked the stealthy way that that has on a tourist resort like in which dry land salting is slowly but Mount Hotham and what effect it has surely eating up vast tracts of very on the vialibity of the businesses which fertile and productive agricultural land operate at Mount Hotham, when one in Victoria. of the two main access roads to the It is not only in the Wimmera and resort is closed for a length of time. Mallee areas where we have known for many years that dry land salting One only has to look at other nations was a problem, but also it extends into of the world to understand the posi­ the higher rainfall areas we have in tion. For example, Canada has its capi­ central Victoria, particularly in the tal city, Ottowa, under snow for many area I represent, and which includes months of the year, but the authorities the areas of Cudjewa, Badaginnie and are able to keep the roads open. Warrenbayne, and extending right into The technical equipment is available the upper River Murray area. Wide­ and I believe it is high time the Country spread concern has developed in the Roads Board was provided with the community that this problem has been 4156 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL allowed to extend without sufficient ago. The unfortunate aspect is that knowledge about it being obtained and people in those days did not understand without notice being taken. the ramifications of irrigation to the I draw the attention of honourable extent that we do today. Drainage was members to an excellent publication, not provided. However, that is no "Saltland in Victoria", put out by the reason for honourable members to sit Victorian Irrigation Research and Pro­ back and do nothing about the matter. motion Organization, which is a self­ If this State is to maintain a highly help organization of farmers and other efficient irrigation system that pro­ people interested in the preservation vides cheap and bountiful food for of the landscape. The publication con­ Melbourne and for export, the irriga­ tains a map which identifies the areas tion districts have to be protected of Victoria which are subject to this from the ravages of salinity. That can curse, and it is indeed very alarming be done only through the provision of when one studies the map to see the further drainage. area of Victoria that is now susceptible Last Friday, my colleagues from an­ to dry land salting. other place, the honourable members I encourage the Minister for Con­ for Murray Valley and Rodney, at­ servation to do his best with the tended a meeting at Waaia in which a Treasurer to make available to the long-running drainage problem was Soil Conservation Authority a specific further discussed to provide drainage allocation to enable further research in the Katunga area through the non­ to be done on the problem of dry land irrigation areas of the Shire of Nathalia, salting. emptying eventually into the River The next item to which I draw atten­ Murray in the Barmah forest area. The tion is related to the salinity problem meeting was attended by about 60 or and it refers to drainage problems 70 landholders. which are part of item 39.1. If one The most fascinating aspect is the turns to the explanatory notes attached realization that has come over people to the Bill, one sees that in item 39.3 in the past five years of the necessity reference is made to the "Goulburn­ for drainage. Years ago, people in non­ Murray Major Works-$1 million". The irrigated parts of that area of Victoria, item reads: and even people in the less intensely This provision is for the continuation of major irrigated parts, were somewhat anti­ works for the improvement of irrigation and drainage. They did not understand the drainage systems in the Goulbum-Murray area. need for drainage and they considered The proposed expenditure in 1981-82 is that the problem should lie with $482000. intensely irrigated dairy and fruit grow­ In terms of constructing a surface ing irrigation regions. However, there drain to serve the Goulburn-Murray is no new clear evidence that drainage, Irrigation District, that is a miniscule or lack of drainage, will affect even amount. It will construct a little over those other areas. At the meeting, a 1 kilometre of drain, bearing in mind decision was made on the route of the current earth works costs, land acqui­ proposed drain No. 11 traversing sition cost, bridging and so on. through the shires of Numurkah and It is common knowledge that the Nathalia into the Murray River via provision of surface drainage is one of Broken Creek and Goose Swamp. On the best, efficient and cheapest means present indications and allocations of of preventing and alleviating irrigation funds, that drain will not be built in salinity. this decade. However, the Murray It is all very well to say that it is a Goulbum Irrigation District cannot costly business. It is true that it is. afford to wait until the end of the Service draining should have been in­ decade for drainage because it will stalled when the irrigation districts be in ruins before 1999 if drain No. 11 were first developed 30 or 40 years is not built. The Hon. W. R. Baxter 3 Decemlber 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4157

It is all very well for the Government the turnover in membership will be to be spending money on various salin­ more than two for one reason and ity alleviation projects downstream. another. They are certainly required, but a solu­ I consider that committee would find tion is at hand in the Murray Goulburn considerable advantage in visiting the Irrigation District that can only be put United States of America. Parliament into practice by the allocation of suffici­ relies on that committee to make ent funds to enable the capital works to recommendations to the Government proceed. Once the works go ahead, the on salinity works. The committee is irrigators are rated .and pay the oper­ endorsing the spending of millions of ation and maintenance charges which dollars, whether it is on relatively are by no means low. I would not want minor projects like the minerals reserve to give the impression to the House basins or interceptors and tube wells that irrigators make no contribution to or whether it be for some massive drainage. They certainly do. expenditure, such as a pipeline to the Another aspect of drainage that I sea or a desalter in the future. I com­ shall deal with is a report recently mend to the Government that if the circulated, at least to some members committee visited the United States of of Parliament, by Commissioner Con­ America and examined some of the stable, and design engineer Collett, of projects that are in -operation in the the State Rivers and Water Supply Colorado Basin and other irrigation Commission on their recent study in areas, it would be money well spent. the United States of America. They Finally, I shall deal with Part 11, item visited the Colorado Basin, in particu­ 25, Railway Construction and Property lar, and other parts of Washington Board, and refer to the Bandiana sale­ State and California. As Mr Reid has yards at Wodonga. As some honourable said, by way of interjection, it is an members will be aware Wodonga grew interesting report. I am not suggesting up as a railway and cattle selling town. for one moment that the Americans are The end result was that the rail facili­ ahead of Australia in salinity control. ties and cattle sale-yards were located I am not suggesting that the American geographically in the centre of the city. problems are identical with Australian Most people would agree that is an problems; they are not. For example, unsatisfactory situation for an urban much of America's irrigation is carried complex of 20 000 to 30 000 people, as out in areas of much less rainfall than Wodonga now has. Two or three years Victorian irrigation areas. Nevertheless~ ago, the Wodonga City Council made a the United States of America has a wise decision, in association with the vast reservoir of experience and has municipal sale-yards committee and made some interesting developments. the Albury-Wodonga Development Cor­ poration, to relocate the yards at It is highly desirable that officers, Bandiana which is about 2 or 3 miles such as the two persons I have men­ away from the centre of the town. tioned, should go to the United States At the time, there was every indication of America and examine those projects. that the associated rail trucldng facili­ I would even go further and suggest ties would come on stream at the same that it would be in order and highly time as the yards were commisioned. beneficial for the Public Works Com­ Unfortunately, like so many other mittee to consider that project. I do areas of Government activity, the yards not suggest it does so immediately. I have been in operation for about two am not suggesting it be done before years now and there is still no start the election, but I expect that after on the trucking facilities. the election the Public Works Com­ I attended a meeting last week with mittee will have a number of new the Minister and the Chairman of the members-at least two new members Railway Construction and Property because two existing members are Board. I received some undertakings retiring from Parliament-and I expect that work is about to commence, but Session 1981-142 4158 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL there is no guarantee that it will be not been fulfilled. I hope the first sod completed to the useable stage because will be turned in the next few weeks financial arrangements have not yet and that work will proceed expediti­ been finalized. It is an absurd situation. ously. Wodonga has the biggest cattle selling The Hon. N. F. STACEY (Chelsea complex in Australia, but has no facil­ Province)-I shall refer to a number of ity to truck cattle out by rail. The matters in the Bill, the first of which result is that cattle are put on the is item 4, dealing with tourism. I train and once on the truck it goes to welcome the innovation by the Minister the final destination. fpr Tourism of publicizing the tourism The work is extensive and it will industry. It is an important industry cost more than $1 million. It involves of great potential that has not started put'ting a dual-gauge line out to the to be tapped. The advertisements and sale yards from the Bandiana army advertising programmes that have been camp. It requires a standard 4 foot put together, not only to encourage 8 inches gauge in New South Wales people to come to Victoria from other and 5 foot 3 inches gauge in Victoria. places, but also to encourage Victorians But it will be beneficial; it will get a to tour their own State, are part of an lot of cattle trucks off the road. It important innovation. will make the sale-yards more viable Item 6 deals with police and emerg­ and facilitate further industrial develop­ ency services. It is important to note ment in the area. However, it is not that the police stations at Hastings and possible to establish a container Cranbourne have still not been com­ term'inal at Bandiana until the railway pleted because black bans have been line is built. I understand that work is applied by the -Builders Labourers about to commence on dismantling the Federation. In at least one case a small Cudgewa line, which is now being builder operating in his local area has closed, and using the materials from been placed in an invidious position by that line on the Bandiana line. I have the action of the striking Builders no objection to that; that is good use Labourers Federation members and has of assets. However, the Government not been able to complete his contract. must get on with the job. Let us get He has not been able to complete work away from promises continually being on that job or on any other job. made and not honoured. The Hon. H. M. Hamilton-We At one stage the Minister appeared should give him the power to recover on television and, after a great fanfare, damages. said that a special authority was to be The Hon. N. F. STACEY-This is set up to enable $1'2 million to be a good example of a case where the borrowed to do the job. That was prob­ recovery of damages would at least ably a device for getting around the provide some measure of justice. As I Loan Council, but if that is the way in said, this is a small builder without a which it must be done, it must be. great deal of resources, and people have The project died a natural death. The shied away from taking such action in Minister said that he would introduce the past. the required proposed legislation in September last year, and we are still Item 8 deals with youth, sport and waiting for it. recreation, and I -acknowledge the work done by the Ministry and the assistance I place on record the extreme dis­ it has given to a number of muni­ appointment of people in the cattle cipalities to provide facilities for com­ industry in the north east of Victoria­ munity youth projects and activities. the farmers, agents, buyers, stock The 'Endeavour Hills area and the transporters and everyone involved general municipality of Berwick is a with it-that solemn promises made by new and developing area, and it has the Government for the provision of not received much assistance from the adequate rail trucking facilities have Department of Youth, Sport and The Hon. W. R. Baxter 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4159 Recreation in terms of council sponsor­ A small amount of money has been ship. I hope that attention will be set aside for dredging of creeks and given to that matter in the area. river mouths. I have just mentioned the MordiaIloc Creek, which needs to be I turn next to the foreshore of Port dredged from time to time. This also Phillip Bay and refer to the area of occurs at the Patterson River. For the beach between MordiaIloc Creek and first time, local users of the creek are Canadian Bay Road, which comes making a contribution towards the within the Chelsea Province. I shall dredging operation. It is important to make some comments about the work keep the creeks open for small boats that has been done there and draw because they are important refuelling attention to it in the hope that other and launching places for small fishing works will be considered for future boats. This applies also to the Kananook programmes. Under item 15.5, which Creek at Frankston, which is much deals with ports and harbors, an smaller than the other two. amount of money has been provided to complete the replacement of old and Some work continues, with the assist­ derelict timber walling with sheet steel ance of the Dandenong Valley Auth­ piling on the banks of the MordiaIIoc ority, to keep the mouth of the creek Creek where it goes into the sea. This open at Frankston. In summer, during has certainly improved the appearance certain weather conditions, it blocks of the mouth of the creek. It has also up quickly when it is most needed, and improved its use for boating because therefore the dredging of creek and it is easier to tie boats up and keep river mouths is vital. I particularly draw them in that portion of the creek. attention to those three streams flowing However, one of the effects of the use into Port Phillip Bay because they of sheet steel piling on the banks of attract a great deal of use by small the creek is that in certain conditions boat owners. it 'can make it a dangerous harbor for ships. Large waves can go down into I refer next to item 17 in ,the local the mouth of the creek. On a couple government vote. One of the 'areas of occasions when storms have listed under this heading is beach clean­ occurred or heavy winds have been ing. A grant is made to municipalities blowing, three or four boats have been to assist them in keeping the foreshore damaged severely. In the past a person -the sanded area of beaches--clean. was drowned 'at the mouth of this That means picking up the rubbish that creek, so I urge that attention be given other people leave behind. In Mor­ to making the mouth of the creek an dialloc, Frankstonand Chelsea the grant all-weather harbor because this is an has stayed the same for about the important aspect of safety for boats on past four years. The amount provided Port Phillip Bay. is $25 000, which is the maximum. Those local councils, particularly Chel­ It is fortunate that at the north end sea.make a special effort to keep of Chelsea Province a beach renourish­ beaches clean not only for the resi­ ment programme which started in dents but also for the thousands of Parkdale has now come down to people who visit the beaches from Chelsea. The work that has been done other suburbs. in this programme-and the Aspendale The sum of $25000 is insufficient area was one of the first areas to when one considers the current infla­ receive that work-has been most tion rate. The figure should be re­ successful. It is an excellent use of viewed next time the Budget is under money to put back on the beach the consideration. A greater contribution sand that has been eroded by too much should be made to the municipalities use by people. The sand that is placed on behalf of those people who are on the beach under this programme not residents of the area so that the stays there and is improving the beaches can be kept clean. The Mel­ quality of the beaches. bourne Herald articles written on the 4160 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL subject have not drawn attention to The CHAIRMAN (the HoD. W. M. dirty beaches. They could if they CampbeU)-Order! There is no point looked hard enough! During the past of order so far as this Parliament is five years the municipalities and people concerned. However, the Bill deals with who use the beaches have paid atten­ the Works and Services Appropriation tion to their cleanliness, and these days Bill and does not deal with individuals the beaches are left in a more attrac­ employed within departments or areas. tive state after a hot day. I ask Mrs Coxsedge and all other hon­ On the subject of transport, I am ourable members to speak specifically delighted to report that work is pro­ about works and services. Votes relat­ ceeding on the new air-conditioned, ing to staff and so on were dealt with suburban electric trains built at Com­ in 'a Bill that has already been debated eng Industrial Equipment . Pty Ltd, this session. Dandenong. Some honourable mem­ The Hon. lOAN COXSEDGE (Mel­ bers have seen the first train, which is bourne West Province)-I take your now operating. As the trains become point, Mr Chairman. I was just trying better known people will realize how to raise the matter because it means fine the carriages are ·and the excellent that migrant members of the com­ service they provide. I compliment the munity are unwittingly providing in­ Government, the Treasurer and the formation without understanding th'at Minister for the way in which they this could be used against them in the have approached railw·ay finances, and, future. in particular, for the introduction of leverage leaSing arrangements for both The CHAIRMAN-Order! When I suburban and country trains. This illus­ have given a ruling, I will not permit trates a recognition of the need to an honourable member to continue as update 'the services and has the ap­ though I had not spoken. If Mrs Cox­ preciation of the people who travel sedge does so, I shall not allow her to by train. I support the Bill. speak further. The honourable member must either obey the forms of the House The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE (Mel­ or not speak at all. It is entirely her bourne West Province)-During the prerogative. :second-reading debate I mentioned that I was concerned about the operation of The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE-I shall the Ministry of Immigration and Ethnic deal with police and emergency serV­ Affairs. I am concerned about Mr Brian ices. I am concerned but perhaps not Deschamps and Mr Sakis, also known surprised to note that the police heli­ ·as Mike, Zafiropoulos of the ethnic copter, which is really an albatross affairs branch, who are also working around the necks of the people of for the Australian Security Intelligence Victoria, will cost $720 000 in the year Organization. 1981-82. Th'at is an unsatisfactory state of affairs as the police themselves have The Hon. H. M. HAMILTON (Higin­ complained about it. An amount of botha'm Province)-I raise a point of $1-84 million is to be spent on the order. I appreciate the fact that mem­ police communication system, which bers of Parliament have complete seems quite a tidy sum. I would like Parliamentary privilege. However, I the Minister for Police and Emergency point out to honourable members that Services to advise on which area the in 'recent months the Commonwealth money will be spent. Government passed a special Act to protect the names of people employed I am also somewhat surprised to by the Australian Security Intelligence note an amount of $168000 for relocat­ Organization. Although we might have able buildings. When one considers that special Parliamentary privilege, the the relocatables have proved to be so honourable member is using that privi­ unsatisfactory in many schools, it lege to get around an actual offence escapes me why they are foisted upon under the Act. the police. Surely this is a penny- 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4161 pinching attempt at a short-term solu­ The suggestion by the police that tion which will inevitably create long­ the cameras could be used to monitor term problems. traffic over long distances ignores the fact that viewed from such distances I also mention the surveillance the traffic flow could not be properly cameras. Recently there was a major discerned because of the low viewing deception in this House by the police angle. In other words, what they really who deliberately hoodwinked the Min­ need if they are serious about the job ister for Police 'and Emergency Serv­ is to acquire a larger number of low­ ices. The Minister seems to have taken definition cameras. They would perform their phoney explanations at face value. the task adequately. The Common­ I am, of course, referring to the Com­ wealth Heads of Government Meeting monwealth Heads of Government Meet­ cameras will not undertake that task. ing surveillance cameras. On many occ'asions in this House I have re­ I am not talking hypothetically when quested information from the Minister I say that the Commonwealth Heads of about detailed and specific points. Government Meeting cameras are there These questions have not been for a sinister purpose. For many years, answered. Instead I have had a general people like me, who have taken part statement which was a mixture of half­ in perfectly legal dempnstrations, such truths and distortions. The Minister as May Day rallies, marches against con­ has obviously been conned by Chief scription, the Vietnam war and uranium, Superintendent Conn or whatever his have been subject to visible surveillance title is. Perhaps the Minister will advise by the Australian Security Intelligence about this later. On a number of oc­ Organization, Special Branch cameras casions, the Minister insisted that the and God knows who else. It is only purpose of the cameras was for known that these films were and still traffic control and facetiously, perhaps, are carefully scanned at ASIO head­ suggested that they would be useful quarters in St Kilda Road and· dossiers for catching bank robbers. When one are either established or added to. This considers the location of the cameras, is a jOint effort by the Special Branch, this is arrant nonsense. All city banks and ASIO. That has been admitted by have their own cameras! ASIO and the Special Branch of the Victoria Police Force. Of course, we received a different story from the Department of the It i's alarming to note that, even when Premier. This must have been very the information is not used directly embarrassing for the Police Force. In against people--and there is a lot of that story it was at least admitted that information to show that it is-the part of the purpose of these cameras actual knowledge of the surveillance was something coyly referred to as cameras deters many people from par­ general surveillance. I would not mind ticipating in an expression of their at all if they restricted their surveil­ democratic rights. If those people con­ lance to generals because they are sider that at some future stage their jobs well worth watching. They could throw could be placed in jeopardy, they will in a few field marsh ails as well! not take part in that expression of their However, this explanation conceals democratic rights. The term "freedom of the real purpose of high-definition expression" means the freedom of a security cameras. The cameras are person to be able to take part in demon­ capable of picking up a face in the strations and rallies. Many thoughtful crowd and recording details on a per- peopl'e in the community perceive these manentmedium, either a tape or a film. surveillance cameras as being a massive To suggest seriously that these cameras step 'towards the establishment of a are of value in monitoring traffic move­ police state. The wishy-washy answers ments is on a par with killing flies I have received from the Minister for with a sledgehammer. Police and Emergency Services might 4162 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL mean nothing to those wishy-wa'shy hon­ Lonsdale streets; corner King and ourable members opposite. However, the Bourke streets, opposite what used to surveillance cameras represent yet an­ be the Peopl~'s Palace; Hoddle Street on other ostentatious form of serious politi­ top of the Mercy Hospital. cal intimidation. According to my If the Minister for Police and Emerg­ source, the surveillance cameras are ency Services either agrees or disagrees allocated at the following points: Parlia­ with that list I have presented, I should ment House; Treasury building; corner be interested if he would make the Grattan and Cardigan streets; corner necessary corrections or additions. Grattan and Rathdowne streets; in GlJ"attan Street, between Royal Parade . Under item 7, I am a little puzzled and Swanston Street, outside Melbourne about the provision of a security fence University; two on ICI corner; Russell for the Ararat Gaol. There has been an Street police station; RMIT corner Vic­ astonishing amount of $660 000 allocated toria and Orr streets; corner Rathdowne for a security fence for that gaol. I and Queensberry streets; The Shrine; on should like the Minister to explain that top of '~Ferguson House" in Flemington allocation. Road, opposite the Children's Hospital; Something is stirring in the forests in the Royal Exhibition Building in sub-section 3 of item 3. It is obvious grounds, near corner Gertrude and that Smorgon Consolidated Industries Nicholson streets; corner Eades and has all the right friends in all the right Albert streets, West Melbourne; in front places. Smorgon Consolidated Industries of Hilton Hotel, Wellington Street; pollutes the air of the Western suburbs corner Russell and Flinders streets, on and it dumps toxic wastes off the Vic­ the Gas and Fuel building-- torian coast. That company is hoping The Hon. D. N. SALTMARSH (Wav­ to export 400 000 tonnes of wood chips erley Province) -On a point of order, a year from the Otway Ranges. The I do not see anywhere within the specific Government is obviously leaning' over items listed under item No. 6 any men­ backwards to help that company becaus'e tion of these mattel's that are now being I note that $2'5 million will be spent on referred to, the establishment of softwood forests. The CHAIRMAN (the Hon. W. M. It is obvious that a deal has been CampbeU)-Order! There is no point made on the hardwood-pulpwood of order. Item No. 6 refers specifically licence. I should be interested to hear to police and emergency services. There details on that matter from the Minister is no information before this House as to for Conservation. whether the Victoria Police Force has or I conclude my remarks by referring has not purchased the cameras. to item 19 dealing with minerals and However, if those cameras are the energy. The taxpayer is being asked to property of the Police Force, Mrs Cox­ underwrite an expensive experiment in sedge's comments are relevant. brown coal liquefaction. This is a clumsy attempt to divert the attention of the The Hon. JOAN COXSEDGE (Mel­ people away from the economic plight bourne East Province) -The surveil­ of Victoria. I should like those comments lance cameras are situated in the follow­ to be placed on the record. ing places: Two in Clarendon Street, East Melbourne on either side of Gipps The Hon. D. M. EVANS (North Street; corner CoIl ins and Exhibition Eastern Province) -I wish to deal in streets, on the Reserve Bank; Went­ the Committee stage with item 10, worth Hotel driveway on the corner of education and item 17, sub-item 4, Collins and Exhibition streets; corner Municipalities-forests roads. CoIlins and Exhibition streets, on the Item 10, sub-item 1, refers to regional building opposite the Wentworth Hotel capital works, including the provision of -right up; on top of the Department of new pupil places, additional facilities, Transport building; top of Courtesy maintenance and replacement facilities Hotel on the corner Exhibition and Little -in other words, school buildings of all 3 Decemher 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4163

different types. There is an increasing sary to be provided from school coun­ concern in Victoria about the lack of cil and community sources to complete funds for these capital work,s and school the project. buildings that are urgently needed but which cannot be provided. Indeed, main­ I shall refer to comparative costs of tenance work that is urgently needed is similar buildings over a 4-year period. not occurring at the necessary intervals. By using the method of the Wangar­ There is a hbldup in the cyclical main­ atta High School, not only did the tenance program-me. school get a better building but also the project points clearly to the way Approximately four years ago in which Victoria can get a better adequate finance was available for style of building and one that will last school building but since that time, con­ longer for a comparable cost of de­ stant financial cutbacks have occurred. mountable buildings and a lot less on At that time, there was a shift from the cost of buildings constructed three the use of permanent buildings to the and four years ago. I have no inten­ demountable buildings-that is, pre­ tion of downgrading or denigrating the fabricated buildings moved on site. buildings in the examples I shall use I was critical of the move, believing because they were quite properly con­ that demountable buildings were bad structed and done so at those times business and that they constituted in accordance with Education Depart­ maintenance problems for the future. ment policy. With this in mind, a rather interesting The first building is the Myrtleford project was carried out by the Wanga­ High School library which was com­ atta High School which, for some ten pleted in 1977 and was a Common­ years had waited for a new library to wealth-standard library to the designs hold 30 000 books in the ordinary book then used by the Education Depart­ stock and some 20 000 books in class ment. The building was 339 square sets. I am chairman of the school coun­ metres in area. It had toilet space cil and have had a close relationship included, which the Wangaratta High with what has happened. School library does not, of 22 square About two years ago, the high school metres. It cost at that time $270 000, reached the head of the priority list and that is a total building cost of for the Benalla region for the provision $670 a square metre. If it is brought of a new library. I t had previously been back to a similar standard of building promised a new Commonwealth-stand­ as Wangaratta without the toilet space ard library but, by the time its priority and decreasing the area by 22 square reached the top of the Benalla regional metres, the cost is $716 a square metre. list, the department's policy had Making an estimate of the increase in changed to demoun table buildings and building costs to 1981, and assuming the school was offered a ten-modular the cost of the library of that standard demountable brick skin building for its of that year would be $300 000, the library. cost a square metre had the library The school council was not satisfied been constructed in 1981 would be $885 either with the size of the library or a square metre for the full building at that time with the style and con­ and $946 a square metre had toilets struction of the building, which it not been included. considered inadequate for the school. I understand the Prahran High School In consequence, after various represen­ is a first-floor building constructed on tations to the Minister of Education, top of an existing building. It was it was decided to gain approval to completed in 1979. It is 540 square carry out the building project as a metres and cost $310 000, which is high school building project using the $574 a square metre. Estimating the funds the Education Department would cost twelve months later at a 10 per have expended on the ten-modular cent increase in building costs, the cost demountable brick-skin buildings plus would then be $340,000 or $630 a whatever additional funds were neces- square metre. 4164 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL

The Wangaratta High School library demountable bUildings. It has a colour­ was actually begun in November 1980 bond steel deck: roof, it is fully carpeted and completed in June 1981 so that and it is fully air-conditioned with six those costs, even allowing for inflation, air-conditioning wall units and heated are behind the standard that the high by a ducted air system. The Wodonga .school employed. library does not include in its costs The Wodonga Technical School had air conditioning. All those advantages a ten-modular demountable building have been obtained at a lesser cost provided as a library. It did not have a squar~ metre. There is a substantial a brick outer skin. It was 303 square lesson there not only for school coun­ metres and the cost was $462 a square cils but also for the Education metre. Department. The original proposal for tne W angar­ The library was opened on 6 Novem­ atta High School was a ten-modular ber by the Premier and Treasurer, Mr demountable brick skin builidng at an Thompson, and since then he has estimated cost of $150000, which was expressed keen interest in the econo­ the 'actual sum made available to the mies and the value for money obtained high school council to proceed with in the building. I believe lessons can its project. At 303 square metres, be learned not only for the Education the cost would then have been $495 Department but also for other schools a square metre. The Wangaratta High in Victoria. School, acting independently as its own It is not possible to obtain that sort construction authority with its funds of result without certain things being provided in part by the Education available and happening. Firstly, for a Department and in part by the school school council to engage in that pro­ council and the community, designed ject, certain personnel and skills must its project through the Public Works be available. Indeed, the high school Department and through local archi­ council in Wangaratta was lucky to have tects, Underwood and Partners. The the services on its council of the city building is 400 square metres, and that council engineer, Mr Harry Kilminster, is almost 100 square metres larger than who has the appropriate qualifications the building originally proposed to be and experience in constructing build­ provided by the department. The cost ings of that and indeed somewhat of the building with three tenders larger size. The school council bad very close together after tenders were a ready made person possessing the called and within $1500 to $2000 of necessary qualifications available to it­ each other was $182 101 and a few a supervising engineer-at no cost to cents with one variation order still to the school council. be completed, a very relatively minor The Hon. K. I. M. Wright-He has matter-that is to say, $455 a square other qualities, too. metre. That is the lowest cost of any of these libraries I have quoted, includ­ The Hon. D. M. EVANS-Certainly, ing the ten-modular non-brick skin he is a good man, and also a good demountable library built in Wodonga water engineer. even though the costs were based on The Hon. F. J. Granter-He is State some twelve months, so the cost a Rivers and Water Supply Commission square metre of this building was a trained. lot less than the demountable building. The Hon. D. M. EV ANS-He is, and Yet, there is a difference. he is also a thorough gentleman. We The building constructed by the had close co-operation with the regional Wangaratta High School Council is a office of the Education Department and double brick building. It has a concrete buildings branch. The council also had raft foundation-it does not have a available to it a qualified accountant, Mr wooden floor as do demountable build­ Kevin Wilson, to handle the financial ings-it is of a south-light roof con­ affairs. He acted not only as principal struction higher than that provided in for the building construction but was The Hon. D. M. Evans 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4165 also in charge of the finances. With those accounts when they became due within two key personnel and with the avail­ a reasonable period, and that the build­ ability of local architects to do the ing was of simple design. There are design, total control of the building by many lessons to be learned, as I have the school council, which knew precisely indicated. I have detailed them today what it wanted, and with a reputable because they are important enough to local builder who had the ability and draw to the attention of the House. financial backing to be able to carry out the construction in an orderly fashion, I now turn to Forest Roads, item 17, the building proceeded. Local Government, sub-item 4--Muni­ cipalities-Forest Roads. An amount of The design was simple, using the $50 000 is made available for forest quality of materials as part of the roads improvements throughout Vic­ decoration so that the final result was toria. That money will be spent where pleasing. There are no architectural the roads are used for the extraction of fancies in the building. It is totally timber and other forest products. The utilitarian but attractive. It is of double local ratepayers make little if any use brick construction so that mainten­ of the roads which are mainly used by ance problems will be kept to an abso­ forest trucks and are required to be lute minimum. of a higher standard than the local The designs of the interior layout of people would need. Only $50 000 has the library were assisted by the school been placed at the disposal of that librarian, Mrs Baxter, no relation, as fund and yet substantial new forests I understand it, to Mr Baxter. It was are being opened, particularly in the very much not only a school council North East of Victoria. A substantial project but also a project involving problem is being created for local muni­ fully the teaching staff who made a cipalities which is being passed on by substantial and thorough input, and the them, if they are to deal with it, to students who showed keen interest in their ratepayers. I refer to the need to the project and were able to contribute upgrade these roads. financially in various ways. In addition, there is a substantial The experience of the school coun­ problem with damage occurring to cil clearly indicates that with good some of the major roads in north­ construction, simple and adequate de­ eastern Victoria with the development sign, a good local builder and a proper of the Australian newsprint mill at appreciation of costs, the costs of Ettamogah, north of Albury, and the buildings can be lowered and a far forests industries' mill at Myrtleford more effective and better school build­ and the larger mills such as Dunstans ing with fewer maintenance problems at Wodonga. There is a huge increase can be provided. in the volume of heavy timber traffic The last point I make is that one across the roads. It is destroying the of the reasons for obtaining economic road pavement and substantial patch­ quotes from three different builders ing problems are occurring. The road was that because it was a school coun­ foundations are failing. If substantial cil project and a school council con­ additional funds are not made available, tract, the council was able to promise the roads will become increasingly the contractor that progress payments more dangerous and will become less would be made within 30 days of pre­ effective to serve the needs of the local sentation of accounts. On one occa­ people and, because of the need of the sion this period was extended a little mills to which I have referred to have beyond 30 days. The contractor grizzled raw materials provided on a regular about that but was told it was a con­ and efficient basis, from time to time tribution to the eventual library. It was the very foundation of the mills could important that the council was dealing be placed in jeopardy. Some 800 jobs with a local person who had authority depend directly on the employment pro­ to make decisions on the spot, that vided in the mills. The amount of finance was available to meet the money available for the Forests Roads 4166 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL

Improvement Fund is minute and the venture capital to be made available to availability of additional funds from industry, especially newer technological other sources, whether special impact industry in Australia. Through the funds or more equitable funds through Ministry for Economic Development, the Country Roads Board branch in the private enterprise should be encouraged several categories have not been made so far as possible to be involved in the available. Industries are developing, to process of venture capital to encourage the benefit of Victoria and Australia. new and small companies to undertake They are employment-creating and the the work that will be the basis in many necessary infrastructure is not being ways on which the future is built. provided. I draw that to the 'attention of the House. The second point I mention briefly is item 4, Tourism. There is no doubt that The Hon. D. N. SALTMARSH (Wav­ we ought to be very proud of Victoria erley Province) -I refer first to item and, as Victorians, we should be much 3, Economic Development. It is clear more concerned with promoting Victoria that growth and development in this than we have been in the past. When­ State depends on a firm economic base. ever there have been efforts to promote An amount of $6 million has been pro­ Victoria, the Opposition, in particular, vided for the forthcoming period where­ has expressed sentiments that are by the Government will be encourag­ opposed to the promotion of Victoria. ing, through loans and grants, decen­ Our present Minister for Tourism is tralization and employment and especi­ doing an extremely valuable task in ally work in the' development of ad­ promoting Victoria amongst Victorians. vanced technological industries. Some of the material that has been In one area in particular in the produced recently promotes not only economic development of this State, the m'ajor tourist attractions through­ there is much skill and opportunity­ out the State but also promotes the the area of advanced technology, espe­ appreciation of tourist opportunities cially data processing technology. On within the State. That needs to be a previous occasion I raised the need commended and supported. for more consideration to be given to There is enormous growth potential, incentive, perhaps by the establishment both in employment and economic of a special park which could be called development, through the promotion of .a computer or technology park, such tourism. A new emphasis is being given as has been established in Queensland to this particular Ministry, and it is and other parts of the world, to give to be hoped there will be total com­ special encouragement and incentive to munity support for promoting Victoria. industries, to personnel and companies, to establish more effective operations Important new initiatives are being and to provide more employment oppor­ taken in the important field of com­ tunities in this important new and de­ munity welfare service. In the past veloping field. couple of days the Minister for Com­ munity Welfare Services announced I have been interested to learn that the addition of another four foster care in England at present, despite the programmes in various regions of the gloom that is being felt in so many State. I am concerned about two in ways by the British economy, empha­ particular that provide for the outer­ sis is being placed on this high tech­ eastern area of Melbourne, and the nology area. In England private enter­ inner-eastern area of Melbourne. These prise has provided venture capital. This foster care programmes are based on is one of the deficiencies at present in existing family organizations, . which Australia where, by and large, banks have well-established records in com­ are extremely conservative and loath munity service. They will provide addi­ to le'nd finance to companies, especi­ tional resources to reach out and pro­ ally if they lack large capital equity. vide homes, particularly for children There should be more opportunity for in emergency situations. As this foster 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4167

care programme is developed the chil­ mildly retarded people in institutions, dren of a single parent family-where who have been able to learn skills for that single parent has to go to hospital, independent living, now are able to and the children have nowhere else to move out into the community living go-will be cared for in these com­ where there are places av-ailable for munity homes. Previously they would them in appropriate centres. In the have been cared for in an institution, Oakleigh area, with the support of the but foster care environment is more mental retardation services, the Oak­ effective and more humane. The fact leigh City Council and a number of that this programme has been extended other volunteer groups, a home has through a further four regions is to be been provided under the supervision of greatly commended and it means that two skilled young people for up to nearly all the regions in Victoria will seven young, mildly retarded people, now be covered by foster care pro­ who otherwise would not be able to grammes. function properly within the com­ I was fascinated to read recently of munity. Not only do they live in this some Labor Party candidates in the home ina supportive and friendly ou'ter-eastern area claiming that they environment, but they have been had been making representations for assisted in finding employment. This better foster care services. I understand has been the most encouraging factor. from the department and the Minister Despite difficulties in employment, a that they have made no representations number of these young people have at all, that the representation came been able to find suitable employment entirely from Liberal Party members within that district. If this programme who are determined to ensure that can be expanded, there will be -a con­ better services are provided throughout siderable reduction in ,the number of the eastern suburbs community. young people living within State insti­ tutions,and hopefully they will be able The next item I refer to is item 10, to move out of the institutions into a Education, and in particular sub-item 1, more humane and effective approach of which deals with the programme for caring for mildly retarded people, and new pupil placements. The area that I be accepted as part of the normal com­ represent, and which I will be repre­ munity. senting further in Wantirna, is a rapidly developing area of metropolitan Mel­ I commend the Min-ister, who has boum-e, and there is a need fora con­ taken particula-r interest in this pro­ siderable number of new places in gramme, and the department, and I education. It has been a great delight anticipate that there will be an expan­ to see how responsive the Education sion of this type of service as people Department and the Ministry have been respond and provide similar services for in ensuring -that there is a high school mildly retarded people. at Wheelers Hill, a high school at Item 22 comes within the arts Wantirna, a new co-educational tech­ category, and the first item in this nical school at Brandon Park, as well section is the Victorian Arts Centre. as an additional three new primary This magnificent art complex in Mel­ schools. These will ensure that the bourne must be one of the best in the -children of young families moving into world. As it nears completion, new homes in these areas will be adequately provided for with new pupil enormous expenditure is being pro­ places in new schools in the forth­ vided. The centre for the performing coming year. arts in Melbourne will be vi-nually without peer. It is a magnificent pro­ Item 21, sub-item 10, refers to ject of which we will all be proud. mental retardation services. One pro­ Some of us will be anxious to be in gramme that I have been pleased to be the audience of the performances when associated with recently has been the centre opens, hopefully in the new -funded for the first time in this Bill year. This centre is prov·iding a basic and it is a scheme whereby young need for another essential development 4168 \Vorks and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL

within our changing society, in recrea­ steps in full regalia to visit the Governor. tion and the arts. Also, the art centres H is also a superb place for demonstra­ being developed in many of the regional tions and the like, which play an import­ centre around Victoria are centres of ant part in the political life of the City great importance for the rural com­ of Melbourne. This building is a jewel munity. in the structure of Melbourne and it has one of the finest interiors in the world. Item 23 deals with housing, and Of that there can be no doubt. The sub-item 2 refers to "Emergency assist­ Library and and the Legislative Assem­ ance to home purchasers" to assist bly Chamber are in keeping with that with repayment of housing loans in view, but when one travels around the cases of extreme hardship. This is one corridors a little more extensively one of the most important initiatives that finds that public magnificence quickly the Government has taken in recent gives way to private squalor in the days. As a result of the difficulties accommodation that is provided for faced by a number of people through members and Ministers. increasing home interest mortgage rates, the Government has estab­ The other day, I wanted to contact lished a scheme to assist people the Minister fgr Planning. I di1scovered facing difficulties in this area. I that his office is i.n a sort of dovecote in believe it is a very important interim the roof. Anyone who wants to visit measure. I am delighted that there is his office has to take the lift to the top every indication that interest rates are floor, go along a corridor and up a flight beginning to come down and I should of sta:irs and then walk across the top be extremely happy if before long that of the dome. Somewhere along there is became aparent in home mortgage inter­ the Minister's office. The Mini'sler of 'est rates. However, in the meantime, Transport occupies a small room at the families who are being disadvantaged other end of the building and other Min­ and who might otherwise have to lose isters in that area have a sort of common their homes because of their inability room. That sort of accommodation is to pay the increased interest rates are simply not good enough. It is not suit­ being assisted by the Government. The able for the work this Parliament does. Minister of Housing should be warmly commended for this in:itialive and I am The Government fshould act within sure many families wHl be greatly at least a reasonable time to do some­ appreciative of the assistance being pro­ thing about either the proposed north vided. I strongly support the Bill. wing, to fill in the gap that has been there for 100 years, or the south wing at this The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON (Higin­ end of the building. If I had a personal botham Province) -I shall deal briefly vote, U would be for the south wing. with only a few items. The first of them I would look after the Legislative is 'th'e very first item in the Bill, which Council first! The Public Works Depart­ deals with Parliament. I strongly support ment already has plans drawn up and the remarks made earlier by Mr Baxter, I have seen the model that ha's been when he complained about the standard created. I can only urge that the work of accommodation provided to members start as soon as possible. and Ministers of this Parliament. If a register of classic buildings of the world The construction in the back gardens were 10 be compiled, we would be very must have been built by someone with­ pleased to have our own Parliament out taste or any idea of the conservation House 'On that register. It is a superb of energy. It is a terrible eyesore in the building constructed in the classic style. middle of a wonderful prospect. If one looks out the window of the Library The steps leading up to it give it a one sees the magnificent creation of grand sense of theatre. That was high­ William WardelI, the superb building of lighted this monling when the President St Patrick's Cathedral, but in the fore­ of the Legislative Council and the ground there is this terrible creation, Officers of this Chamber went down the the "Chook House", which suffices for 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4169

us. It is supposed to be temporary, but by the National Trust, which will classify it is a matter of one's definition of "tem- it as an example of early depression porary". It seem,s that it can stretch to architecture. the crack of doom. It is used for COUl'lts presided over by I now turn to Division 2, Department both stipendiary magistrates and justices of the Premier, which I understand is of the peace, and it i's suitable for neither. in charge of fountains. I wish to It is not properly finished. It is not comment on the fountain thal has been properly insulated. It is situated on the built in the Parliamentary Gardens. It south side of the Nepean Highway, has been finished and is now operating. adjacent to the police station, and when I remember the deba1te some time ago the wind is blowing from the north it when Mr Walker was concemed because is very difficult Ito hear what is said. he thought there would be a great big Sometimes, the courts have to closed "c" to show that it was donated by the because of the tremendous noise from Coles organization. I must tell the hon­ the highway. I am sorry the Attorney­ ourable member that his worst fears General is not here to listen to my have been realized, because I have been remarks on this subject. He knows my told that if one flies in a helicopter over view on the Cheltenham court-house and the top of the fountain and looks down, is aware that i1 should have been re­ the fountain is in the shape of a "C", so placed many years ago. I have written anybody flying overhead in a helicopter, to him and invited him to visit the court­ an aeroplane or a balloon migllt suddenly house. He will be shocked and horrified get the urge to go along to a Coles store when he sees the state it is in. I can and purchase some goods. only hope 'that it will soon become The Hon. E. H. Walker-Are you history. happy with it? The last division with which I shall The Hon. ROBERT LA WSON-I do deal is Division 8, Youth, Sport and not know. I have not made up my mind. Recreation. I shall prime the parish It is like the Vault, one needs to think pump a little further and speak about about it. It was designed by the man who the Gaslands Recreation Reserve at designed the Alamein fountain at Klings Highet:t. Part of th'e former area owned Cross. I prefer the Kings Cross fountain. by the Gas and Fuel Corporatipn were This fountain looks like a series of donated and part sold to the City of showers-cold showers! It will be ex­ Moorabbin, and :the city intends to build tremely popular with the joggers during a magnificent regional sports centre. the warmer weather. They will be able The Hon. Glyn Jenldns-The St to splash through il and come out on Kilda Football Club might want to take the other side refreshed. I recommend it it over. to any honourable members who may have carnal thoughts; they will be able The Hon. ROBERT LAWSON-They to take a quick run up to it, flash through 'might make a cash offer, in which case it, and come out the other side refreshed I do not think the council will accept after a cold shower. their cheque. A mUlti-purpose sports and reoreation centre will be constructed. I now turn to the item that makes It will be superb when it is completed. provi'sion for court-houses. I refer to the Cheltenham court-house. Mr Chair­ The plans are ready and everything ils man, if you ever drive down the Nepean set to go. The base of the gasomett:ers Highway and are booked for exceeding remain on the site and the high, circular the speed limit and hauled into that concrete structures will be roofed court-house, take not of your surround­ and Iturned into a number of indoor ings. I do not think you will be thrilled. basketball and similar stadiums. It is an example of a building that should There is room for three or four stadia have been demolished and replaced within that structure. I hope the Min­ many years ago. The only fear of the ister for Youth, Sport and Recreation community is that it will be discovered will announce in the near future the 4170 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL funding for that complex. In time, it listening. The worst feature of this will become one of the finest sporting place is its extreme lack of privacy. and recreation complexes in Victoria. People walking from Bourke Street up The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY (Waverley the steps to the landing are in full view Province)-I want to speak on item 1, of the surveillance camera which Parliament. An allocation of $100000 records every activity. is made for electorate offices. Signifi­ The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-Which one? cant changes will occur in electorate office requirements next year with The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY-The one incoming members of my persuasion on top of the building is the only one -that is, truth, justice an.d the Aus­ of which I know. Mr Jenkins may know tralian way-because those members of others and I would like him to tell will not want to -continue in offices me where they are. I have a question now held by the defeated party, many on notice in relation to the matter. of which are so sited that one needs a map and compass to find them. How­ The Hon. Glyn Jenkins-There are ever, it appears that nothing much will two on the ICI building. be done about this matter until the The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY-This next Budget because $100 000 will not building presents a most remarkable cover the changes that will be neces­ lack of privacy. People cannot come and sary. discuss matters privately. If people or While on the subject of electorate deputations cannot wait on Parlia­ offices, I point out that the Government mentarians and Ministers, they will feel has done a reasonable job with those inhibited from coming here, particularly facilities. At the moment, I am having if they know they are in full view of a running battle to retain the cleaner. the surveillance camera which will be The Public Works Department and the checked by selected police to see who House Committee apparently want to is coming here. I should imagine it put in their own cleaner. As honour­ would be unfortunate if a member of able members would appreciate, a mem­ the Police Force came here to see the ber of Parliament justifiably wants to shadow Minister for Police and Emerg­ have a cleaner whom he can trust ency Services and certain people asso­ absolutely and implicitly, even though ciated with the Police Force saw him; much of the contents of one's office he may well lose his job. This building would be of no political significance poses a distinct lack of privacy. It is to the other party if it gets hold of it! a beautiful place in many respects but The Hon. Glyn Jenldns-I cannot it was built before the days of tele­ think of anything in your office any­ phone and electric light, apart from one would want to get hold of! the accommodation in the "chicken The Hon. C. J. KENNEDY-I have a coop" or "Siberia", as the section at nice telephone box there. Obviously the back' is known. My colleague and the outgoing member for Geelong is Deputy Leader of my party, a most interested. distinguished architect, has mentioned that that section was made to look bad I propose to deal with Parliament House. I rarely find myself in agree­ so that people would not want to hold ment with Mr Lawson, Mr Wright or on to it for too long, and I would Mr Baxter on anything, but on this say the ploy is working. An annexe is occasion their remarks are correct. The needed in which every member has a office facilities in this place are dis­ private office so that honourable mem­ graceful. There is hardly anywhere in bers can interview constituents and dis­ this building where one can take a cuss matters with them without others constituent to discuss confidential mat­ listening or watching, and each of those ters. Members of the public ought to offices should be connected to a paging be able to see 'Ministers, shadow Min­ system and an amplifying system so isters or local members in private with­ that honourable members can listen out the world and his wife seeing or to debates from their offices. 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4171 The Parliaments of New South Wales Some municipalities also have golf and Queensland have excellent office courses, grass tennis courts and other facilities for their members and for con­ facilities which could lead to oppor­ stituents visiting their members or Min­ tunities for apprentices in horticulture isters. Whether a deputation is from a using that group apprenticeship scheme school council, a school principal, to expand the opportunities for them. Snowy on the tram, the milko, the Mayor of the City of Waverley or the Victoria has been known for many Mayor of the City of Wodonga, people years as the Garden State and people should be able to see Ministers, shadow are being encouraged to develop not Ministers or members in comfort and only their own private gardens but also relaxation without others knowing public gardens. Many areas throughout what their business is about. the north central region of Victoria, within the electorate I represent, take This matter has concerned me for pains to provide excellent park lands some time. The building is archaic, hav­ and facilities to enable families to en­ ing been built before the days of tele­ joy the parklike appearance and, pro­ phone, electric light and other facilities. vide facilities within those parks, such It is about time the Government spent as electric barbecues and picnic facili­ some real money, not on scungy, slum­ ties, to enable people to enjoy them. like, "chicken coop", "Siberia" type of What better way to enjoy them than to accommodation, but on really good encourage horticulture apprentices to facilities that would complement this develop their skills by providing these Parliament. fine facilities? The Hon. N. B. REID (Bendigo Pro­ One of the biggest difficulties in set­ vince)-I wish to comment on item 10, ting up a horticultural apprenticeship education, sub-item 6, Technical and scheme has been the difficulty in locat­ Further Education works, for which the ing teachers who are qualified to teach proposed expenditure for the year end­ horticultural subjects. Some people have the necessary practical experience but ing 30 June 1982 is $36·39 million, and do not have any formal training in the particularly in respect of the construc­ skills of horticulture, or in teaching tion of a new T AFE college in the city methods. of Bendigo, which will provide im­ proved facilities for the instruction of I am hopeful that Bendigo will be apprentices from that city and the sur­ the forerunner and leader in conduct­ rounding district. For some time I have ing a horticultural apprenticeship been proposing that a horticulture ap­ scheme course in the Victorian coun­ try area. These courses are presently prenticeship course should be com­ being run at the Oakleigh and Colling­ menced in Bendigo in conjunction wood technical schools. Bendigo is in with the T AFE college and I have had an ideal position to provide such a numerous discussions with the Min­ facility, not only for the City of Bendi­ ister of Education on the matter, be­ go and the surrounding areas but cause I believe the horticultural in­ extending as far as Echuca. I see dustry is a growing industry-that is· Bendigo as the regional centre for the not intended as a pun-and an industry development of such a training course. which creates expansion and employ­ ment opportunities. Bendigo has a large I wish to comment on a couple of matters which come under item 35- number of municipalities surrounding Tree Planting Incentive Scheme. These it and a large number of hospitals schemes come under the control of the which could take advantage of the Forests Commission. Mr Baxter spoke group apprenticeship scheme to employ at some length about the control of a number of horticulture apprentices salinity. It is important to control and give them the opportunity of gain­ salinity, and tree planting is one ing experience and training in the hor­ method that can be used. To date, ticultural field. there have been 1208 applications for 4172 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL tree growing assistance for non-com­ ages, sports grounds, racecourses and mercial purposes. This is to be encour­ a few public golf courses. Many schools aged. Of those 1208 applications, 974 have become interested in planting are from farmers and graziers, so it is trees to make the school grounds obvious that the farming community is attractive areas. interested in trying to arrest the spread of salinity. Most of the applications for assist­ ance for tree planting on public land The Tree Planting Incentive Scheme could be categorized as farmers and was introduced by the Government in landholders who are investing their 1979 and applications have been own money and community groups that received at the rate of about 70 a are prepared to invest their leisure time month. The written inquiry also reflects in tree planting. I always encourage a high degree of interest in many people to give up their leisure time for country areas. Municipal authorities community projects. What better than have submitted 112 applications. Sew­ to participate in a tree planting scheme erageauthorities have also embarked on public land where the whole com­ on tree-planting schemes around their munity can take advantage of the water and sewerage treatment plants. facility when the trees grow. Sporting clubs, service clubs and schools have also taken part in this Examples of community-based tree scheme. planting schemes are trees planted on I am sure many honourable members the approaches to many cities. Many would recall some of the earlier tree municipalities encourage community planting schemes where pine trees and groups to plant trees at the entrance other trees were planted adjacent to to the city or town to provide a nice schools and when the trees were har­ approach and a pleasant environment vested the proceeds were used to in which to drive into the city or town. improve school amenities. Many community groups not only plant the trees but water and tend them as In considering a policy approach to well. That is to be encouraged. these applications, the Government has divided the applications into two cate­ I now refer to item 24 under trans­ gories-trees to be planted on either port. A substantial allocation has been private land or public land. Most of the made to country passenger rolling private land applications come from stock, including brake vans. I have been farmers or small rural holdings that advocating the improvement of the wish to improve the appearance of the Bendigo to Melbourne railway service property and provide a wildlife habitat. for a number of years and I am pleased In many instances, trees are planted to see that the Government and the purely in an effort to control the salting Minister of Transport have responded and other adverse land use problems. to those representations. The Bendigo Trees are used as barriers to combat Bullet train is getting a little closer. soil erosion problems. I have advocated a Bullet train incor­ The Forests Commission has recom­ porating a buffet car which would take mended financial assistance totalling two hours to travel from Bendigo to $305 000 for 360 applications-an Melbourne and would provide a com­ average of $850 an applicant or on the fortable and pleasant trip to Melbourne. average approximately 30 per cent of I inform Mr Kent and other honourable the total cost of the project. members that the facility has been In the category of public land, about upgraded and the time schedule has 140 applications have been made for been altered so that it now takes about assistance for tree planting. Most of 2 hours and 10 minutes to come down it is Crown land, usually public to Melbourne from Bendigo. I should reserves controlled by committees of like to see it take 2 hours, but improve­ management or a municipality. These ments have been made to the service tree planting projects are undertaken and in fact extensive upgrading of the at public buildings, along river front- track is taking place at this moment. The Hon. N. B. Reid 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4173

I am sure the patrons on the Bendigo I refer to item 39 in which there to Melbourne rail service are apprecia­ is reference to drainage and salinity tive of what the Victorian Government works. I note that the Government has has done through the Minister of Trans­ made a total allocation of $1·343 mil­ port, because a sympathetic Minister is lion and it is also expected that the needed in all of these requests and the Commonwealth Government will con­ Minister of Transport has been sympa­ tribute a similar amount under the thetic. The patronage has increased and National Water Resource Programme. it will increase even more because the Government is providing a very good, It is important that the salinity con­ safe, clean, reliable service to Mel­ trol works continue in the northern bourne. part of Victoria. It is a major problem. One of the things that can be done Item 48 relates to water supply. The to assist with salinity control would Minister of Water Supply will be in­ be for the Minister of Water Supply terested in this item, and I refer to to encourage farmers to use less water sewerage authorities and improvements in their irrigation practices and to to country sewerage facilities through­ utilize the modern methods we have out Victoria. Since the Government has these days for laser grading of irrigated been in office, that has been one of the paddocks, and also to have their under­ main platforms of the Premiers of this ground drainage installations con­ State, right back to when Sir Henry structed using laser methods so that they Bolte was the Premier. He was a great obtain the most efficient drainage in­ advocate for improving water and stallation possible. It is important that sewerage facilities in country Victoria the Minister give encouragement to the and that policy was followed by Mr farming community for those types of Hamer when he was Premier, and he work to be performed to enable the gave great encouragement to the de­ absolute minimum amount of water velopment of water treatment plants to be used. and sewerage treatment facilities The Minister of Water Supply and I throughout Victoria and many country have journeyed quite often through the areas of Victoria have benefited as a northern irrigation areas and it has result of that policy, which has been always staggered me to see the vast followed by the present Premier. amounts of water from irrigation areas I wish to mention the township of that run to waste. This is creating Tongala in particular where the local salinity problems in that it brings about sewerage authority received $100 000. a raising of the water table in those That is probably one of the most diffi­ areas and contributes quite markedly cult areas in Victoria in which to im­ to the salinity problems of the area. plement a sewerage scheme. The con­ I am pleased that the Minister of struction occurred during a very wet Water Supply is at the table during winter and the contractors ex­ this debate so that he can hear the perienced difficulty in keeping the comments which have been made and wa ter table from rising in the trench perhaps devise some scheme whereby that was prepared for the sewerage he can give an incentive to farmers to works undertaken in that area. As use less water rather than more water. I have stated, it was a most difficult The Hon. R. J. EDDY (Thomastown area and the contractor experienced Province) -There are a number of problems, but I am pleased to inform items to which I wish to refer and honourable members that the expertise I certainly hope that my contribution in the sewerage field has developed to will be listened to intently as this will a tremendous extent and most of the be the last occasion I shall have to work has been completed. There are raise the matters which I have been still some works that need completion, raising for the past twelve years. I but principally the job has been com­ have received very little co-operation pleted. from the Government in attending to 4174 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL the complaints, if I may call them that, and that is why a fully operational which I have raised on previous 24 .. hour a day station should be pro­ occasions. vided. Item 6 deals with police and emer­ I appreciate that works at the Russell gency services. I refer to the cramped Street police station are long overdue. conditions which members of the It is pleasing to note that the offices . Police Force are subjected to by being in the Russell Street building will be housed in renovated houses and re­ converted and that the officers who locatable buildings. I refer to the con­ work there will be provided with better ditions which exist in the Shire of conditions. I have been to Russell Whittlesea. In that area there are three Street police station on many occa­ police stations where the members of sions to bail out people. I am sure that the Police Force are subjected to the employees in any other industry or cramped conditions which are to be organization would be out on strike found in the renovated houses which immediately if they were asked to work are used as police stations. Over the under the crude conditions in which years I have been asking for a 24-hour officers at the RusselI Street police police station to be constructed in the station are required to work. I hope the Shire of Whittlesea. Minister takes note of my remarks about the police stations required in I refer to the Thomastown police the Shire of WhittIesea and Broad­ station, which is an old two-storey meadows. dwelling where members of the Police Force are working in cramped condi­ The expenditure for the Department tions. Similar circumstances apply at of Community Welfare Services is ap­ Epping where an old house has been proximately $11·5 million. That is a renovated and adjoining that dwelling small amount of money when one con­ a relocatable building is being used by siders the areas for which the Minister a number of police officers who also must provide finance for certain works have insufficient numbers of vehicles to be carried out, including works for to carry out their work efficiently. the Division of Family and Adolescent Services. Those services are badly The Whittlesea police station is an­ needed and are far from what they other dwelling that consists of a build­ should be. I think $2 million could be ing that contains a small number of spent in country towns, without any members of Victoria's excellent Police money being directed towards the Force. They are working under shock­ metropolitan areas of Melbourne where ing, cramped conditions and are called the needs are far greater. upon to protect the people in the com­ munity. The allocation of funds in the According to the Bill, works and Works and Services Appropriation Bill alterations will be carried out on the indicated that certain works will be dormitories at the Turana Youth Train­ carried out within twelve months. ing Centre and Langi Kal Kal Youth Training Centre. It is pleasing to learn I notice that no new stations will be that both of those boys' institutions erected at Thomastown and Broad­ will no longer have the dormitories meadows, which have been crying out that have existed for too long and for years for proper facilities to be pro­ which have caused trouble in those in­ vided for the people employed there. stitutions. Sexual assaults have The Ministers who have been re­ occurred because of the dormitory situ­ sponsible over the years have been ation. I do not notice any money made well aware of the existing being allocated for demolishing dormi­ conditions and the need for new tories in the remand section at Pent­ stations within the City of Broad­ ridge 'Prison. The remand section con­ meadows and the Shire of Whittlesea. sists mainly of dormitory accommoda­ New police stations are needed urg­ tion, and the majority of sexual ently. The crime rate in each of those offences at Pentridge Prison have areas is one of the highest in the State, occurred in the dormitories. Sexual The Hon. R. J. Eddy 3 December 1981] Works and Services Appropriation Bill 4175 assaults and attacks on young boys in the Works and Services Appropri­ have taken place over the years and ation Bill to provide for the updating will continue to occur. of industries, particularly at Pentridge, I consider that the Minister and the where the largest number of prisoners Government are not fulfilling their -just on 1000 prisoners at present­ responsibilities by not providing funds are congregated. to demolish those monstrosities of When one visits the maximum dormitories in Pentridge Prison. I have security section, Jika Jika, one sees that often said in this House that the re­ not one unit there has any industry. mand section is the worst section of Prisoners housed four or six to a unit any prison in the world. I do not de­ at Jika Jika just sit around all day. A tract from that statement. The Govern­ machine has been there since not long ment is being shortsighted in not after the unit was opened fourteen providing funds to ensure that the months ago waiting for parts to come dormitories in the remand section of from America to enable the machine to Pentridge Prison are demolished and operate, but not one cent has been replaced with single cells. allocated in the Bill towards indus­ tries at Pentridge or the other prisons Everyone is aware of the dangers to I have m'entioned so that people in which young prisoners are exposed in penal institutions may learn some­ dormitories. Recently a young boy was thing that will help them obtain sexually assaulted on three occasions employment when they leave that in one night in the remand section . at building in Coburg, whether it be Pentridge Prison. I referred that matter after twelve months or twelve years. to the Crimes Compensation Tribunal, but unfortunately we were not success­ The Government has not provided ful in obtaining the amount to which sufficient funds in the field of correc­ the boy was entitled. While the dor­ tional services. It is all very well to mitory setup exists at Pentridge, the read that $3·7 million has been allo­ cated for expenditure on wor~s in the sexual assaults on young prisoners will Division of Correctional Services, but continue. The case to which I referred part of that is to be used for the is only one of many. proposed new maximum security Some time ago the Government prison at Castlemaine that has been promised to separate young prisoners going to be built for the past three from the hardened, older prisoners at years. By the year 1990 we will prob­ Pentridge, but this has not taken place. ably still be waiting for that new No provision is made in the Bill for maximum security prison that we have these works to be carried out to allow heard so much about to be built. young prisoners to be separated from I hope, if the Government does not the types of prisoners I mentioned, intend to go ahead with the project, who prey on these young lads in the if the plans are not ready or if tenders remand section. have not been called for the construc­ I am pleased to learn that under item tion of the proposed new maximum 7 a new industries block will be con­ security prison, the $3 million will be structed at Sale and a mUlti-purpose put to better use. I do not believe it block at Beechworth. However, when is necessary to use it for that purpose. one visits prisons around the State I would rather see a section for young one finds that the machinery for the offenders built in Pentridge so that they prison industries is of nineteenth century will not be mixed in with the hardened type. Fortunately, a few months ago criminals that I have already the Herald and Weekly Times Ltd sent mentioned. to Pentridge some unwanted printing Item 10 deals with education. The machinery, which I am sure would be total amount allocated for this purpose of great benefit to the prisoners work... in the Bill for 1981--82 would not be ing in the industry at Pentridge Prison. sufficient to carry out the necessary However, no money has been allocated works for schools in the Thomastown 4176 Works and Services Appropriation Bill [COUNCIL Province alone. I visit practically every that funds are to be allocated for this school in the province, and I learn, as hospital. I remind the Minister that the do my colleagues, of the works that Commonwealth Government has are required and have been promised granted land in Camp Road to the and see schools which consist wholly Broadmeadows City Council for the of re-locatable class-rooms and which construction of a hospital. The Broad­ were promised new buildings three or meadows auxiliaries have raised an four years ago. enormous amount of money over the An ecacentre-which may include a years, and it seems that the Govern­ gymnasium-was promised six years ment cannot obtain sufficient funds to ago and the secondary schools are still commence construction of the urgently waiting for it because funds pave not needed hospital. The hospital will also been allocated. Nevertheless the Min­ be used by people in the Shire of ister announces that physical education WhittIesea because it is only a five­ in schools is to be stepped up. How can minute drive away. this take place when funds which are There is no mention in the Bill of promised to provide facilities are not community health centres. I shall now forthcoming? refer to mental retardation. The The Bill does not allocate any funds Thomastown Province contains the for gymnasiums or new buildings with­ Kingsbury Training Centre and the in the Thomastown Province. I sup­ Janefield Training Centre which house pose all honourable members would be 500 mentally retarded patients. The able to make similar remarks about patients include children as well as schools in the provinces that they rep­ adults, who are aged between 20 and resent. No mention is made of cyclic 30 years. The conditions at the Kings­ maintenance. I am not sure whose re­ bury Training Centre are appalling. I sponsibility that is, and I have men­ have already referred in other debates tioned it to the Minister on a number to the presentation of the meals, but of occasions. The Minister may tell me funds for a kitchen at the centre have to ascertain the information from the not been allocated. The Government regional offices. However, I would like continues to inform us that this is the to read in the Bill where the money is International Year of Disabled Persons; provided for works to be carried out yet when it comes to the allocation of at certain schools. Dr Foley has· asked funds it conveniently forgets the men­ for this information on numerous tally retarded. I had to remind the occasions. Although the Budget detaiJ.c; Minister of his promise about air­ have been improved, there is still room conditioning facilities which are part for further improvement. of the Works and Services Bill. I receive correspondence every day The Minister for Public Works has been from schools complaining that various good enough to inform me that the works, which have been promised, have air-conditioning will be installed at the not been carried out. Every year I end of this year. remind the Minister of Education about Owing to the financial constraints, the promises he has made. In the Shire many mental health centres will of WhittIesea and the electorate of suffer. Year after year, I have con­ Broadmeadows many schools need tinually reminded the Government of attention. The Fawkner school requires its broken promises in this area. I cite attention and yet many students are the example of the Kingsbury Train­ housed in relocatables. ing Centre, where a new kitchen is I shall now deal with health. At needed to provide hot and cold meals. long last action may be taking place I refer to item 24 and the conten­ on the geriatric hospital promised at tious matter of the financial allocation Bundoora because it appears in the for transport. For a long time, I have Works and Services Appropriation Bill. been asking the Government to extend I believe a hole was dug and work the railway line from Epping to Whittle­ begun on the foundations, and I gather sea because of the population gro\7th. The Hon. R.- J. Eddy 3 December 1981] Sale Station Relocation and Development Bill 4177 Although a rail service was provided centre and the dividing nature of the to Whittlesea approximately eight years railway is restricting the suitable ex­ ago, the rail line has since been dis­ pansion of the city. mantled. However, no financial alloca­ Over a number of years the City of tion has been made for the extention of Sale and VicRail have been discussing that rail line. Indeed, the railway sta­ the relocation of the station approxi­ tions on that line are in urgent need of mately 1 kilometre west and construc­ repair and maintenance. ting a loop to join the Gippsland and I wish to speak on a number of other Sale-Stratford railway lines and at the items. However, I would ask the Min­ same time providing a new station ister for Conservation to report pro­ complex. gress and I will reserve my right to From a railway operational point of continue. view, this also has advantages as it The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON (Min­ eliminates the need to change the loco­ ister for Conservation) -I propose that motives from one end of a train to progress be reported. the other where a train is continuing Progress was reported. from Sale to Bairnsdale. The costs of relocation can be BUILDING INDUSTRY financed by the development of the LONG SERVICE LEAVE railway lands which will be released (AMENDMENT) BILL to the council by the change. This Bill was received from the The Government believes the ex­ Assembly and, on the motion of the pertise of the Railway Construction and Hon. A. J. Hunt (Minister of Educa­ Property Board could be used in rela­ tion), for the Hon. HADDON STOREY tion to a development of this type and, (Attorney-General), was read a first accordingly, the Bill makes provision time. to enable the board to become in­ SALE STATION RELOCATION volved, together with the City of Sale, AND DEVELOPMENT BILL in these aspects of the project. This Bill was received from the Legislation is necessary to authorize Assembly and, on the motion of the the construction of the new loop and Hon. A. J. Hunt (Minister of Educa­ station, the transfer of the lands and tion) , for the Hon. GLYN JENKINS to authorize the City of Sale and the (Minister of Water Supply), was read Railway Construction and Property a first time. Board to develop the land proposed to be released. RAILWAYS Accordingly, the Bill provides in (BORROWING POWERS) BILL clause 4 for the railways board to con­ This Bill was received from the struct the loop and new station. Clause Assembly and, on the motion of the 8 provides that on completion of these Hon. A. J. Hunt (Minister of Educa­ works the loop and the land become tion), for the Hon. GLYN JENKINS vested in the railways board, and the (Minister of Water Supply), was read released land becomes vested in the a first time. City of Sale. Part III of the Bill authorizes the SALE STATION RELOCATION council to obtain finance for the rail­ AND DEVELOPMENT BILL way relocation and development pro­ jects and clause 14 requires tha~ the For the Hon. GLYN JENKINS (Min­ council pay for the costs of the radway ister of Water Supply), the Hon. A. J. relocation works. Hunt (Minister of Education) -1 move: Part IV of the Bill authorizes the That this Bill be now read a second time. council and the property board to enter The City of Sale is experiencing ve~y into development arrangements and substantial development. The Sale raIl­ includes in clause 16 the powers neces­ way station is constructed in the city sary for the development to proceed. 4178 Railways (Borrowing Powers) Bill [COUNCIL

The Bill also makes provisions for It is an excellent example of local past actions of the council taken with input from the council and the com­ respect to the relocation of the station munity and of the co-operation of Vic­ and the development of the land cur­ Rail and other Government depart­ rently owned by the railways board. ments and bodies. It has certainly shown to the people of Sale that the The Government believes the Bill council and the Government can act will enable the City of Sale to continue even though it may take ten years to with the orderly development of the get there. The development that will City and will provide VicRail with a occur on the released land will assist modem station, with the improved the City of Sale in developing com­ operational facilities. The Bill has mercial and retail areas and will over­ strong local support, across party come considerable parking problems lines, and I commend it to the House. in the main street of the city. The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Melbourne It is wonderful to see the operation Province) -The Labor Party offers no being brought closer to finality and I opposition to the Bill. thank members of the Opposition and of the National Party in this House and The Hon. K. I. M. WRIGHT (North in another place for their support of Western Province) -Likewise, the the Bill. National Party supports the Bill. With The motion was agreed to. the encouragement of the Minister of Transport, members' of the National The Bill was read a second time. Party visited the office of the Railway The HOD. A. J. HUNT (Minister of Construction and Property Board and Education) -By leave, I niove: met the Chairman, Mr John Urbahns, That this Bill be now read a third time. and other senior officers and were able to examine the excellent work the I als'o acknowledge the work of Alan board is doing at Sale and in other Lewis, the City Engineer of Sale, who, places in upgrading and putting to use as a very young engineer at the time, millions of dollars worth of idle commenced the project which has property and at the same time moderniz­ taken some ten years in its achieve­ ing presently drab areas. We also saw ment. Its final success is a tribute to plans of a-' modem transport station his persistence and ability. The City adjacent to the 'Mildura railway station of Sale will be greatly appreciative of and a $0·5 million building to be erected his services. on railways land by a developer as The motion was agreed to, and the a regional office for the Transport Re­ Bill was read a third time. gulation Board. In their new role in the fteld of motor registrations and fees RAILWAYS etc. I would like to have· enlarged on (BORROWING POWERS) BILL those remarks, but in view of the hour, the comments I have made will suffice. ·For the Hon. GLYN JENKlNS (Min­ ister of Water Supply), the Hon. A. J. The HOD. J. A. TAYLOR (Gippsland Hunt (Minister of Education) -I move: Province)~The City Engineer of Sale, That this Bill be now read a second time. Mr Alan Lewis, deserves congratula­ As honourable members are aware, a tions. Some ten years ago, meetings major upgrading programme is under­ were held with VicRail officers on the way in Victoria's railway system. Up­ project and, at last, it has come to grading is an expensive exercise re­ fruition. Mr Lewis has done a tre­ quiring a large amount of capital funds mendous amount of work with the Rail­ and these funds must be sought from way Construction and Property Board all available sources. and others on the land that will be­ At the June meeting of the Aus­ come vacant with the transfer of the tralian Loan Council, special approval station to the centre of the city. was given for the railways board to 3 December 1981] Adjournment 4179 borrow up to $20 million in each of for long service leave benefitf on the the financial years 1981-82 and basis of service in the industry rather 1982-83 to accelerate expenditure on than service to a particular employer. upgrading the railway system. Explanatory notes are attached to the The Railways Act as it presently clauses, and in addition I have circu­ stands does not provide for the rail­ lated a detailed explanatory speech. ways board to borrow funds, and an I commend the Bill to the House. appropriate amendment is required. On the motion of the Hon. R. A. Accordingly, the Bill is to amend the MACKENZIE (Geelong Province), the Railways Act 1958 by including a new debate was adjourned. sub-division of 4B which provides that the railways board can raise funds by It was ordered that the debate be the issue of debentures and inscribed adjourned until the next day of meeting. stock up to a total amount owed at anyone time of $50 million-that means ADJOURNMENT in total borrowings. Repayment of de­ Mini steel mUI-Brandon Park Primary bentures and inscribed stock together School - Aboriginal co-operative­ with the payment of interest is guaran­ Questions and answers - Boating teed by the Government of Victoria. classes The new section lOON contained in The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of clause 4 provides for additional regula­ tion making powers relating to the Education) -I move: That the Council, at its rising, adjourn until board's borrowings. Tuesday, December 8, at a quarter to two Funds raised by the board under o'clock. these provisions will assist in the fund­ The motion was agreed to. ing of railways capital programmes. These programmes are considered each The Hon. A. J. HUNT (Minister of year by honourable members when the Education) -I move: Works and Services legislative measure That the House do now adjourn. is dealt with by the House. I commend The Hon. E. H. WALKER (Melbourne the Bill to the House. Province)-I raise a matter for the On the motion of the Hon. R. J. attention of the Minister for Conserva­ EDDY (Thomastown Province), the tion. It relates to the mini steel mill debate was adjourned. that Smorgons Consolidated Industries intends building in Doherty's Road in It was ordered that the debate be the Shire of Werribee. Construction adjourned until the next day of has began on the mini steel mill. meeting. Excavations have been occurring today and a significant amount of building BUILDING INDUSTRY LONG material has been deposited on the site. SERVICE LEAVE (AMENDMENT) In other words, construction has began. BILL There is serious local concern about For the Hon. HAD DON STOREY the effect that the mill will have on (Attorney-General) , the Hon. A. J. the area and this has been mentioned Hunt (Minister of Education) -I move: previously in this House. In the pre­ That this Bill be now read a second time. viously proposed location the 'Minister It makes a number of unrelated amend­ required an environment effects state­ ments to the Building Industry Long ment to be prepared. The mill was to Service Leave Act 1975, which have be built just off Somerville Road in the effect of improving some aspects West Footscray near the other of the scheme and its administration, Smorgons plant. The Minister has not correcting a number of anomalies, and done so, as far as I know, in this case. extending the scheme to shopfitters. A planning permit is not required be­ The scheme embodied in the Act cause the mill is in an offensive in­ allows workers in the building and con­ dustries zone. A building permit may struction industry to become eligible well have been issued but the mill 4180 Adjournment [COUNCIL will require to be licensed by the and, if possible, to request that an officer Environment Protection Authority. I of the department be sent to talk to the have no detailed knowledge at present co-operative at No. 6 Easern Beach to of the state of the preparation of that ascertain whether bridging finance or licence and whether there will be any assistance can be provided by the Vic­ difficulty with it but I oppose vehe­ torian Government or whether the Vic­ mently any truncation of proper pro­ torian Government can perhaps put cesses or anything which prevents the pressure on its colleagues in Canberra rights of local residents to be heard to accept responsibility for assisting and answered in their concern regard­ these people. ing this mini s~eel mill. Will the Min­ ister require an environment effects The Hon. G. A. SGRO (Melbourne statement to be prepared before work North Province)-The matter that I proceeds and if not, why not? raise it for the attention of the Leader of the House. As tbe The HOD. C. J. KENNEDY (W·averley Minister knows, whenever hon­ Province)-I raise a matter for the ourable members ask questions, they attention of the Minister of Education. receive a letter stating that if any It concerns the Brandon Park 'Primary numbers are required, the honourable School in Mulgrave. The school en­ member should write down the number, rolment is down for the coming year and those copies will be provided in and the school has been advised that two or three days. I point out to the it is to lose two portables. It realizes Minister that it is not the question that nothing can be done about that that the member requires but the but the Education Department wants to answer. Will the Minister investigate remove a double portable on which the whether honourable members can ob­ school council and the students 'spent tain from Hansard both the question much time and money placing fittings and the answer so that it can be passed and other items for the comfort of the on to the relevant people? children. The school would prefer the department to remove the two single The HOD. J. W. S. RADFORD (Ben­ portables rather than the double port­ digo Province) -I draw the attention able. of the Minister for Police and Emerg­ The Hon. R. A. MACKENZIE ency Services to an a~icle in today's (Geelong Province) -I raise for the Age under the heading' "Police push attention of the Minister responsible for school boating classes". The head for Aboriginal affairs the matter of of the Police Motor Boating Squad, In­ an Aboriginal co-operative that has spector Ray Applebee, draws attention been operating in Geelong for about to the problems caused by people going three years. The Minister may not out to sea, .especially inexperienced be aware that in Geelong there are people in overloaded boats and the more than 400 citizens of Aboriginal enormous number of rescues that take descent. This. co-operative was set place. He states that last year about up by the Aboriginal people and has 1000 people were rescued. As the ,Min­ been providing much assistance to the ister represented formerly the Bendigo Aboriginal community in Geelong. It is Province and now represents the Central desperately short of funds and has been Highlands Province, he will realize that unable to obtain funding from the Fed­ a problem exists in the inland water­ eral Government. From information I ways on the lakes. I ask the Minister received last night, I understand that to consider the suggestion by Inspector its situation is desperate. It is operat­ Applebee who states that there is no ing purely on a voluntary basis and sense in having a licence without edu­ by voluntary donation in an office ad­ cation because that just gives people joining that of the waterside workers the ticket to go out and kill them­ in Geelong. selves. Bearing that in mind, I ask the I ask the Minister to make the Minister to give full consideration to Minister in charge of Aboriginal affairs the possibiilty, in conjunction with the aware of the urgency of the situation Minister of Education, of providing 3 December 1981] Adjournment 4181

secondary courses in Victorian second­ of Werribee issued a permit. That per­ ary schools or some other suitable alter­ mit was issued by the shire without native. reference to the Minister for Conserva­ The Hon. ·A. J. HUNT (Minister of tion for an environment effects state­ Education) -I will take up the ques­ ment, and there needs to be an inter­ tion raised by Mr Kennedy, with my vention by the permit issuing authority colleague, the Minister of Educational when a private undertaking such as this Services in whose area it lies. is involved. The Minister was not asked for such The question raised by Mr Sgro re­ a requirement, but in fact the Shire of lates to matters raised by honourable Werribee imposed a series of condi­ members at question time or during the tions on the construction of the works debate on the motion for the adjourn­ 'and told the Government about them, ment of the House. The honourable at its request, and they contained some member receives back a copy of th~ of the environmental concerns, whicQ ma tter he has raised. The Minister, in both the Shire of Werribee and the turn receives back a copy of his re­ Governmen't would have had in asking sponse without a copy of the question for a statement. In addition, the or the remarks to which the response environmental effect statement, which is replying. It appears that there is was produced for the other site, was a defect in the system. Each party used. Parts of that environmental would like first to receive his own re­ effects statement were not relevant to marks, to ensure that they are correctly the new site, but there were some reported and, after the deadline set by parts that were. Hansard for corrections to be made, I see no objection in Hansard making As I said, I was not asked whether available to honourable members and or not-nor should I have been:-an Ministers alike both the issue raised environmental effects statement should and the response to it. have been produced. In c'ases where it is not a public work. I should not I will discuss the method of giving have taken the initiative to obtain an effect to this. I,t may be that a direction environmental effects statement. That by Mr President to Hansard would be is currently the position, as I under­ sufficient and, if there is any doubt, stand it. If it is correct, I can tal~ a very simple resolution of the House to the honourable member about it. could result. The Hon. F. J. GRANTER (Minister I than~ Mr Sgro. I have often found for Police and Emergency Services)­ it quite confusing in seeking to correct Mr Mackenzie raised a matter regard­ my proof without having a look at the ing the Aborigines co-operative in copy of the issue raised with me. Geelong, and the urgent need for funds for this co-operative. He indicated the The Hon. W. V. HOUGHTON (Min­ desperate state the people are in, and ister for Conservation)-The matter he asked me to bring the matter to the raised by Mr Walker concerns Smorgon notice of the Minister, and perhaps Consolidated Industries, which origin­ suggest to him that an officer should ally planned to build a steel mill at go down there and then discuss the Sunshine in 'an area not zoned for the position with him. I will do that. purpose for which the mill was to be I was 'amazed that there should be used. I assume that the municipality approximately 400 Aborigines in the that issued the permit for the mill Geelong area. The number seemed would have asked whether there should large, but that proves the necessity for be an environmental effects statement, the co-operative and also for the urgent and the Government would have said, attention. I will convey that message to "Yes, there should". the Minister. Smorgon's abandoned their plan to Mr Radford raised a matter of boat do that and moved into Werribee where education, following an article that it w'as a permissible use, and the Shire appeared in the Age newspaper this 4182 Questions on Notice [COUNCIL

morning. It was a difficult question, best way to achieve this is for honour­ and a hard one to overcome in that able members to go down to the there are not many people who require Hansard office and have it read to them, boat education-if it could be put that so they will know what has been said. way. I believe this could be accommo­ It could pose some problems as we dated with boat clubs, and perhaps wor~ toward the issuing of a daily the Government should consider Hansard, which I am hopeful we will whether to make some subsidy or funds achieve some time next year. available for this purpose. One of the problems which we face There is a need for this education, in issuing a daily Hansard, which could when one considers five people were be in the hands of honourable members drowned on Lake Wellington not so as early as 9.30 the morning after the long ago-perhaps some of the fault sitting, is that the prompt return of cor­ could. have been their own-but this rected proofs is vital in terms of the could come within boat education. time involved in producing Hansard. It The PRESIDENT (the Hon. F. S. may well be that it is not possible to Grlmwade)-I will make a brief com­ enable people to make corrections on ment on the m-atter raised by Mr Sgro. corrections on corrections. I believe that there is a need for hon­ ourable members to, as it were, have a The motion was agreed to. look at the other side of the ques-tion The House adjourned at 6.26 p.m. .and answer. It may well be that the until Tuesday, December 8 .

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE

ARMED ROBBERY OFFENCES (Question No. 1) The Hon. HADOON STOREY The Hon.. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Attomey-General) -The answer is: (Western Province) asked the Attorney­ Details of the number of persons convicted General: of armed robbery as the prinCipal offence and How many convictions were obtained for average sentences imposed by the Supreme armed robbery offences in the years 1979, 1980 Court and County Courts in VictOria in the and 1981 (to date), and what average sentence was Imposed by the courts? years 1979 and 1980 are as follows-

Calendar Year Armed Robbery (Principal Offence) 1979 1980

Number of persons sentenced to a term of imprisonment 125 133 Average term of imprisonment imposed for principal offence .. 4 years 7 months 4 years 7 months Average effective term of imprisonment imposed S years 6 months S years 8 months Number of persons convicted but not sentenced to a term of imprisonment ...... 24 27 3 December 1981 J Questions on Notice 4183

NOTES-( 1) In the above table the expres­ is convicted of other offences and a term of sion "convicted" in relation to persons not imprisonment additional to that for the princi­ sentenced to a term of imprisonment includes those placed on probation. pal offence has been imposed. The effective (2) The "effective sentence" is the aggregate sentence includes the sentence imposed for the sentence imposed in cases where the accused principal offence.

PEOPLE ON REMAND (Question No. 7) The Hon. HADDON STOREY The Hon. B. A. CHAMBERLAIN (Attorney-General) -The answer is: (Western Province) asked the Attorney­ General: The number of people who have been re­ manded for trial in Supreme and County Courts How many people are currently on remand in Victoria pending trial and, of those, how throughout Victoria as at 1 October 1981 is many are currently serving gaol sentences for as follows- other crimes?

Number 0/ peopk on remand In Victoria Nu~r 0/ peopk on pending trial and who remand in 'Victoria TotalllUl1lber 0/ are currently serving pending trial who are people on remand In sentence on another not cll1'rently serving Court Victoria pe1ldilrg trial matter sentence (a) Melbourne Supreme Court IS 8 7 County Court 31 19 12 (b) Circuit-Country Areas 0/ Victoria Supreme Court 3 0 3 County Court 7 7 0 S6 34 22 4184 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY on Saturday week next it will be intro­ Legislative Assembly ducing into Victoria an instant Tatter­ sail consultation. Can the Premier indi­ Thursday, 3 December 1981 cate to 'the House whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in a regulation which will preclude chil­ The SPEAKER (the HoD. S. J. Plow­ dren under the age of eighteen years man) took the chair at 10.7 a.m. and from participating ·in this instant Tatter­ read the prayer. sails consultation? Mr mOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE surer)-I indicated yesterday that the existing Tattersall Consultations Act provides power to introduce a consul­ NEWSPAPER OWNERSHIP tation of this type, which does not Mr CAIN (Leader of the Opposition)­ differ significantly from the existing I refer the Premier to his response Tattersall consultations. However, the yesterday when he said that he had Treasurer has power to approve the received mainly strong expressions of selling of tickets by machine. It was opinion opposing the implementation of made clear to the Tattersall organiza­ the Norris newspaper ownership report. tion that the Government would not Is the Premier aware that one of Mel­ be prepared to approve the selling of bourne's two leading newspaper execu­ tickets by machines. The Government tives, Mr Ranald Macdonald, has indi­ heard about this a considerable time cated support for those recommenda­ ago from the organization, purely as tions? Does the Premier now acknow­ a matter of courtesy, and it indicated ledge that it may be desirable to listen that it intended to introduce the sys­ to the opinions of both the leading tem and that it would have the effect newspapers in this State before maklng of conSiderably swelling Government a public statement on the issue, and revenue. will he now indicate that he would be prepared, in the broad public interest, It was on that basis that we became to reconsider his outright rejection of aware of the matter and it is on that the key Norris recommendation? basis that we would welcome the intro­ Mr mOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ duction of a scheme that would be surer)-I indicated that I have received acceptable to the people of Victoria. strong expressions of opinion aga'inst The scheme has been working in South the implementation of that report. Australia for some time, apparently However, no form'al decision has been with no bad effects. One concern that taken by Cabinet not to introduce it. people have expressed is whether In­ We would be awaiting detailed written stant Tatts will encourage the purchase submissions in ,the light of the Norris of tickets by young children. Without report, after giving adequate time for any obvious power to do so, I requested interested pa'rties to read it. the organization-and did so again yesterday-not to sell tickets to There were strong expressions of minors. If that request is not observed, opinion also at the time of the Com­ the Government will be prepared to monwealth press union conference held take some form of legislative action to in Melbourne against ,the adoption of ensure that the tickets are not sold to the report. No final decision has yet minors. been made, and the Government would want to receive views from all who wish to present them. EDUCATION DEPARTMENT Mr TANNER (Caulfield)-Will the INSTANT TAITS Minister of Educational Services advise Mr ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the the House of the progress in the National Party)-I refer the Prem'ier to changeover of the structure of admin­ the announcement by Tattersall's that istration of the Education Department 3 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4185 and, in particular, when the new is a person with great skills in admin­ Director-General of Education will take istration and is fundamentally com­ up his appointment and when the other mitted to reform in education and the senior appointments will be made in­ principles and policies of the White cluding the regional directors of ~du­ Paper. cation? HOUSING COMMISSION TENANTS Mr LACY (Minister of Educational Services)-The development of the new Mr CATHIE (Garrum)-Gan the Min­ structure of the Education Department ister of Housing inform the House is r:t0w reac~ing the critical stage of whether there is a dispute between him senIor appomtments, particularly the and the tenants at North Richmond? sixteen most senior appointments. Dr If so, is it a fact ,that this dispute is Norman Curry, the new Director­ largely of his own making in that it General, will take up his position on was his decision to reintroduce service 1 January but, in the 'meantime, he has charges that did not exist previously, already been appointed to the screen­ 'at the same time ·that he was to in­ ing committee for the remaining fifteen crease the rents, with the net result Governor in Council positions with Dr that many pensioners are $3 or $4 out Ken McKinnon, Vice-Chancellor of the of pocket despite receiving increased University of Newcastle. Professor Bill pensions from the Commonwealth Gov­ Walker, Principal of the Administra­ ernment? If these are facts, is the tive Staff ColJege at Mount Eliza. and Minister now prepared to negotiate Dr Ron Cull en. Chairman of the Public with affected Housing Commission Service Board. They will be recom­ tenants and adjust increases to a more mending the name of the appointee equitable proportion of their ~ensiQns? for Deputy Director-General to the Minister on 14 December. I expect Mr KENNETT (Minister of Housdng)­ that the positions of Executive Director Every now and then the Opposition of Educational Programmes and Execu­ embarks on a pa,th that can be tive Director of Personnel and Re­ described only as totally irresponsible. sources will be recommended prior to Yesterday, the honourable member for Christmas and, as a result, I expect Carrum issued a press release to the that during January the new regional media informing them of a rent strike directorappoinments will be recom­ at the North Richmond estate. The mended and able to be appointed. night before he and I had both spoken on the matter with the Housing Com­ That will ensure that, possibly, from mission officer of the estate, Mr Andrew the beginning of the school year the McCutcheon. He was well aware of Education Department will be in a the facts, and by his actions he has position to begin the biggest change­ totally inflamed the dispute. over in administration that has ever The facts are simply these: It was occurred. It is probably the most sig­ the Ministry of Housing, in pursuit of nificant changeover that has occurred its new policies under my predecessor, in the history of education in Australia. who established a tenants council, As a result of that, the Government which is a forerunner of. a series of considers that it will be possible in councils it is hoped to establish to give 1982 to implement the significant to the people on the estates greater changes and devolution in education responsibility for their own develop­ that are the subject of the White ment 'and living conditions. In the end Paper and demonstrate to Parliament it is hoped that these councils will and to the people of Victoria the seri­ also-- ousness of the Government's intent in 'reforming and revamping the Edu­ The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ cation Department. It is a matter of man)-I ask the honourable member great joy that the new director-general for Carrum to cease interjecting. The 4186 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY honourable member keeps on inter­ supported by the Opposition, particu­ jecing even while the Speaker is on larly the honourable member for his feet. I ask him to have some regard Carrum. I will meet with them when for the courtesies of this place. they end their strike, but at the moment they are performing con trary -.- Mr KENNETI-The point of these to their tenancy agreement. councils is to give to the people on these estates the opportunity to better U that tenants council, through its appreciate the needs and frustrations own activities, destroys itself, it will of these communities, and an oppor­ destroy the aspirations of the thousands tunity to develop their own life style. of people on the estates with whom Importantly, it is hoped that in the end the Ministry is carefully working to these councils will be responsible for develop extra opportunities. This is one conduc'ting their own maintenance, specific example where the Ministry's their own security and various other policies are being put into practice and factors, and therefore, even create are in the interests of the community, employment opportunities on the estate. yet yesterday the Opposition, through the honourable member for Carrum, The council came to me some time deliberately tried to inflame the dispute. ago, through a letter, asking me cer­ tain questions, and 1 understand they Honourable members interjecting. were dissatisfied with the answers. The Mr KENNETI-The Ministry relies Ministry of Housing over the years had on Housing Commission rentals to pay a period of g.ood negotiation with the for maintenance, gardening and various council. As a result, the council has other components when some of the sugges1ted to the tenants on the estate services break down. not to pay their rents to the Ministry of Housing but to the tenants council The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ where the money is held in trust. They man)-Order! A number of supplemen­ are therefore breaking the tenancy tary questions are being asked by inter­ agreements that these people have, and jection. The Minister has been speaking obviously, I cannot as a Minister of the for some time, and 1 ask him to wind Crown negotiate with these people up his answer. while they are taking this sort of action. Mr KENNETI-I shall wind it up, The Ministry of Housing has not Mr Speaker, but it is an important recently re-introduced a service fee. A question. The honourable member for service fee was introduced last year to Carrum laughs because of the actions cover the gas and fuel components that he has taken. If these rents do not tenants pay in the normal utilization of come in to the Ministry, it is quite their living standards. The only reason possible that our whole maintenance they pay a service fee is because they and renovation programme will come are bulk billed; they are not individually to an end because we need those metered. Most people on the estates moneys, given that the rental opera­ are individually metered, and therefore, tions in this State are running at a not to charge them that fee would be loss of $16 million a year. totally irresponsible also. The honourable member for Carrum The Government has a longstanding has locked members of the tenants' policy, which continues to stand today, council into a situation which will that no pensioner in this State will pay make it very hard for them to retract m'ore than 20 per cent of his pension as from it. I ask the tenants' council to base rental, and that still exists. These do it not only in its own interests, people are currently paying about $15. but in the interests of the tenants' councils programm~ so that tenants' If the tenants council does not end responsibilities can spread further the rental strike, obviously it puts at throughout the State. More import­ risk the whole tenants council project antly, the actions of one tenants' coun­ throughout Victoria. It is obviously cil, supported by the honourable 3 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4187 member for Carrum, are not going to been of benefit in developing new and be allowed to jeopardize the whole life­ creative theatrical talents in this State? style of people throughout the Min­ Mr LACY (Minister for the Arts)­ istry of Housing estates in Victoria. Almost without exception, each of the community theatre groups that has OPERATIONS OF TRAMWAYS been established in Victoria as a result BOARD of the policy of the Ministry for the Arts to this end has been a success. Mr WHITING (Mildura)-I direct a Indeed, the Ministry recently a question to the Minister of Trans­ announced in the Budget new funding port. Further to the recently released arrangements for two of the theatre annual report of the Melbourne and groups and has doubled the amount of Metropolitan Tramways Board and the money available to others. indication in that report of an upward The other groups, including the Mill, trend in the number of passengers Theatre in Geelong, the' West Com­ carried by the Tramways Board, can munity Theatre in the western suburbs, the Minister indicate whether that Theatre Works at Burwood State Col­ trend is stilI continuing and, if so, what lege, the Murray River Performing effect this is having on the financial Group at Albury-Wodonga and Cross situation of the board? Winds at Benalla, have all been suc­ Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ cessful community theatre groups. port) -Despite the increasing costs of Without doubt, the greatest success wages and other elements involved in of this investment in the arts-and operating the tramway system, the investments in the arts are sometimes Melbourne and Metropolitan Tramways knocked by certain members .of. the Board reports to me periodically community, who pursue a -dIfferent throughout the year. At present it is ethic, on the basis that they believe ahead of budget again this financial there is no value or return from in­ year. It has had increased revenues vesting in the arts-is taking place and is attracting increased patronage this week in Paris, where a little in both the tramway and bus systems. twelve-year-old girl from AI bury, Tanya Given that industrial disruptions Lester, is performing. her trapeze act which would set back those trends do in competition-- not occur, it is expected that the in­ An Honourable Member-She is from creasing number of passengers on both New South Wales! buses and trams will be strongly e11l­ phasized during this yea~ as it is also Mr LACY-I think she is a Victorian being emphasized in the railways. It girl. is expected that the Tramways Board, if it continues with the present trend Mr Lieberman-She comes from and is not set back by excessive wage Albury-Wodonga. demands or wage grants made by the Mr LACY-I point out that she got Commonwealth Arbitration Commis­ her start with the group known as sion, will remain ahead of budget the Murray River Performing Group, during the remainder of its accountancy which is funded jointly by the New period. If that is the case, the extra Soilth Wales and Victorian Govern­ budget money will be used for capital ments. It so happens that this little works. girl lives across the border, but we do not hold that against her. She is COMMUNITY TIlEATRE GRANTS performing in Paris in competition with acts from the Moscow Circus and PROGRAMME Barnum Brothers Circus and others. Mrs SIBREE (Kew)-Can the Min­ She is doing so well that her perform­ ister for the Arts advise the House ances could lead to international con­ of the impact of the community theatre tracts for her. That is 'a demonstration grants programme and whether it has of the value of community theatre and 4188 Questions without Notice [ASSEMBLY

of the importance of the investment I also indicate to the House that, as the Government is making in com­ a corollary, I have now determined munity theatre and in the arts gen­ that the schedule attached to the Min­ erally. isterial statement I made on this sub­ jec~ earlier .during this sessional period, DECEPTIVE PACKAGING which outlmes the staffing provisions Mr SIMMONDS (Reservoir)-Can for the centres, is now a matter of the Premier explain why the Govern­ Government policy, having taken into ment has taken no action to use the account the views of those who re­ provisions of the Consumer Affairs Act sponded to that statement. I indicate 1972 in respect to deceptive packaging that 8 per cent of the staff available and when the Government will take have been reserved for allocation on action to prevent deceptive packaging a needs basis and that needs basis and in Victoria? that allocation will also be determined after consultation with the Victorian Mr THOMPSON (Preinier and Trea­ Teachers Union. surer)-This is clearly a matter for the Minister representing the Minister As a result, during 1982 it will be of Consumer Affairs. possible to begin the implementation of stage 2 of the Special Assistance Pro­ Mr RAMSA Y (Minister for Economic gramme and allocate staff by voluntary Development)-I will take up the mat­ movements. Subsequent to the passage ter with the Minister of Consumer of the Education Service 'Bill, it is Affairs and ensure that the honourable hoped to make the permanent appoint& member for Reservoir gets an answer ments to those centres from the begin­ to what came 'across as an extremely ing of 1983 so that Victoria will have complicated question. a comprehensive, integrated and decentralized system of special assist­ SPECIAL ASSISTANCE RESOURCE ance with qualified personnel available CENTRES in all parts of the State. Mr COX (Mitcham)-Can the Min­ ister of Educational Services advise REALm COMMISSION COMPUTER the House, in connection with the im­ plementation of stage 2 of the special Mr WILKES (Northcote)-I refer the assistance programme, what progress Minister of Health to the purchase of has been made in negotiations with computer equipment by the Health the Victorian Teachers Union for the Commission for Victorian health insti­ establishment of 50 special assistance tutions. Has the Health Commission resource centres? evaluation recommended the most expensive tender received from an Mr LACY (Minister of Education'a! overseas firm out of the three final Services)-The special assistance pro­ tenderers? If the Health Commission gramme involves the setting up of goes ahead with the system, wilt it add multi-disciplinary centres across the additional costs to hospitals in Victoria Counselling, Guidance and Clinical and the commiss'ion? What effect will Services, Special Education Unit serv­ this have on the boosting of the ices and Demonstration Unit services development of the Victorian computer which are now to be integrated int~ Special Assistance Resource Centres. industry and will the Minister re­ Extensive negotiations have been car­ examine the matter before a final ried out with the Victorian Teachers decision is made? Union over most of this year and, as Mr BORTHWICK (Minister of a result of those extremely successful Health)-I will deal with the latter negotiations, it is now possible to move part of the question first. Although I to stage 2 and write to every member am not sure what stage has been of staff in those three streams and reached, I requested the Health Com­ i~vite ~hem volunta~ily to take up posi­ mission to confer with the Ministry for tIons m the SpecIal Assistance Re­ Economic Development primarily to source Centres. make clear to the Victorian computer 3 December 1981] Questions without Notice 4189 industry the current shortfalls in meet­ necessarily be the monopoly of anyone ing the specific requirements in the Government body, and we have had hospital field. In this way Victorian discussions in recent months aimed at manufacturers may be able to adapt encouraging private enterprise to pro­ their software to meet the specific duce electrical power. The discussions requirements. At present the experts have been along those lines rather than advising the commission believe that along the line of encouraging private the Victorian computer development enterprise to purchase existing plant. does not adequately meet the require­ There are obvious complications in ments, particularly ~n speed. that. Mr Wilkes-With unnecessary speci­ The burden placed on the State in fications, you make it exceedingly raising semi-Government loan funds difficult. and infrastructure funds could be re­ Mr BORTHWICK-The matter is be­ duced considerably if sections of pri­ ing examined. The policy of the Govern­ vate enterprise generated their own ment is to endeavour to aggressively power. One large industrial organiza­ encourage the development of a com­ tion in Victoria already does that and puter industry in Victoria and one of the scheme has worked well. the problems is that numbers of hos­ pitals have funds of their own. At least PHYSICAL EDUCATION POLICIES one instance has occurred where a Mr BROWN (Westernport)-Will the major hospital purchased equipment Minister of Educational Services inform without advice from informing the the House to what degree the physical commission. The commission is en­ education policy, as it relates to the deavouring to obtain over-all co­ provision of indoor facilities and staff­ ordination of those activities and to ing, will be implemented during 1981- establish clearly to the Victorian com­ 82? puter industry what its requirements Mr LACY (Minister of Educational are. This will be done in order to inform Services) -At the beginning of this the Victorian computer industry how Parliamentary term, 57 per cent of all best to meet the needs of the Health primary schools with an enrolment of Commission. In that way, if it can meet more than 210 and 72 per cent of post­ the requirements the local computer primary schools with that enrolment industry will be in a better position to had an indoor facility suitable for compete for the business. The Health physical education. During the period Commission and I have not approved of this Parliamentary term-that is, the most expensive overseas system. the three Budgetary terms prior to this one--the Government spent $13·5 mil­ STATE ELECTRICITY COMMISSION lion on providing such facilities to EQUIPMENT schools. As a result, an additional 102 Mr JASPER (Murray ValJey)-Is the primary schools and 30 post-primary Premier aware of suggestions by the schools had indoor facilties suitable for New South Wales Government that it physical education added to them. Con­ will sell off one of the power generating sequently, 71 per cent of primary plants in that State? If so, bearing in schools and 81 per cent of post prim­ mind the problems currently experi­ ary schools with an enrolment of more enced within the State Electricity Com­ than 210 now have such a facility. mission and with the development of In the Budget for this financial year, power-generating plant in Victoria, has $11·2 million has been allocated for consideration been given to selling off this purpose. As a result, 21 primary that equipment in Victoria to private schools and 34 post primary schools enterprise which could more efficiently will have those facilities added. Con­ run the system? sequently. at the end of this budgetary Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ period, taking into account works that surer) -It is our belief that the genera­ will have been undertaken, there will tion of electrical power should not remain 199 primary schools with an Session 1981-143 4190 Petitions [ASSEMBLY enrolment of more than 210 and 34 action to prevent wood chipping in the post-primary schools without a facility atways. He stated that the petition was suitab.le for physical education. respectfully worded, in order, and bore It can be seen that, during the 125 signatures. course of the next Parliamentary term, It was ordered that the petition be that deficit can be wiped out and every laid on the table. school in this State will have an in­ door facility suitable for physical edu­ cation. Logging in catchment areas In respect to staffing, the policy an­ Mr EBERY (Midlands) presented a nounced by me for physical education petition from certain citizens praying outlined that provision would be made, that the House takes action to ensure over a period of six years, to achieve that- the target objectives of both adding (a) no logging shall take place in staff in respect of physical education Melbourne's catchments; and the upgrading of qualifications. (b) the recently created catchments Consequentially, next year 60 study be upgraded to the level of traditional leave positions, on a one-day-a-week catchments; and basis, will be provided. Sixty primary teachers with a major in physical edu­ (c) control over the catchments be cation in their initial training will up­ vested in the Melbourne and Metro­ grade their qualifications to the re­ politan Board of Works. quired objectives in respect to the staff­ He stated that the petition was ing provision. We believe about 50 per respectfully worded, in order, and bore cent of their initial training should be 77 signatures. in specialized physical education. Consequently, by 1986-87 schools in It was ordered that the petition be this State will not only have indoor laid on the table. facilities suitable for physical educa­ tion but will also have the appropriate PAPERS number of staff appropriately qualified The following papers, pursuant to for that purpose. the directions of several Acts of Par­ PETITIONS liament, were laid on the table by the Funding for school works Clerk: Co-operative Housing Societies-Report of the Mr FORDHAM (Footscray) presented Registrar for the year 1978-79.-0rdered to a petition from certain citizens praying be printed. that the House will vote for its own Co-operative Societies-Report of the Registrar increased role in funding for building for the year 1978-79-0rdered to be printed. and maintenance works at State Minerals, and Energy Department-Report for schools and lobby for increases from the year 1980. the Commonwealth Government, so State Development, Decentralization and that current needs as reported by Tourism Department-Report for the year schools may be met and that this 1980-81. funding be indexed in order that future needs may also be met. He stated TATTERSALL INSTANT LOTTERY that the petition was respectfully Mr TREZISE (Geelong North) I de­ worded, in order, and bore 150 signa­ sire to move the adjournment of the tures. House for the purpose of discussing a It was ordered that the petition be definite matter of urgent public im­ laid on the table. portance, namely, the failure of the Government to act on the Tattersall Wood chipping in the Otway Ranges consultations proposal for an "instant Dr VAUGHAN (Glenhuntly) pre­ lottery" by providing adequate safe­ sented a petition from certain citizens guards for the protection of the com­ praying that the State Government take munity and in particular young persons. 3 December 1981] Tattersall Instant Lottery 4191

Approval of the proposed discussion In this adjournment motion, the was indicated by the required number Opposition will be arguing that it of members rising in their places, as would be highly improper for young specified in Standing Order No. 26 (b). people to be put in this position and The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ further that it is necessary for the man)-Further to a question asked by Government, before the introduction of the Leader of the National Party to the this new form of gambling in Victoria, Premier and 'Freasurer this morning and to ensure that there are proper safe­ the answer given by the honourable guards for the protection of the com­ gentleman, I would seek an indication munity at large. The motion is deliber­ from the Premier and Treasurer on ately worded to enable the House to whether he has powers under present discuss the failure of the Government Acts to take the action that is sought to act by providing adequate safeguards in this motion. If the remedy sought for the protection of the community. by the motion requires legislation, the As the regulations provide that the motion would be out of order. There­ Government has a responsibility for fore, I seek clarification from the hon­ providing safeguards against any ourable gentleman on the situation. improper practices, I suggest that the Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ motion is in order in relation to the surer) -Quite clearly there is power regulations that have already been under section 9 of the Lotteries Gaming promulgated by the Government to set and Betting Act to prohibit the selling out the possibility in terms of classes of these tickets in shops by machines of individual persons who may not and that power has been exercised­ be able to undertake an involvement in the request that machines be permitted its general sense. For that reason I has been refused. suggest the motion is very much in In relation to other provisions en­ order. suring that the selling of tickets to The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ minors does not take place, there man)-The Opposition has put -its point would be no direct power. I have an of view. I will not be making a decision assurance from Tattersall's that it on this motion forthwith. I will with­ would not be selling tickets to minors, draw briefly and consider it and come but in order to place the statutory pro­ back with an answer. In the mean­ hibition, legislation will be necessary. I time, I ask the honourable member for have had that advice confirmed by the Geelong West to take the chair. Crown Solicitor's staff this morning. Therefore, on those grounds, I believe Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ the motion would be out of order. port) (By leave) -Mr Acting Speaker, I urge you-in view of Mr Speaker The Government is prepared to intro­ withdrawing to consider the matter­ duce legislation to ensure that tickets to exercise the powers delegated to you will not be sold to minors. to announce that you will resume the Mr FORDHAM (Footscray)-On a chair at 11 o'cloc~ which will give Mr point of order, Mr Speaker, I put to Speaker some time to consider the you that, under the present legislation, motion and allow honourable members, the Government clearly not only has instead of exchanging pleasantries dur­ the opportunity but also the responsi­ ing that time, to withdraw for a cup bility to act on this matter. Section of tea. 11 (1) (b) of the Tattersall Consul­ The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr BirreU) tations Act provides for the Govern­ Order! I will use my powers to take ment to provide safeguards against up that suggestion. I shall resume the any improper practices. I suggest it chair at five minutes past eleven is a matter for the Government of the o'clock-in 16 minutes time. day, the Parliament or the community at large to determine what is an The sitting was suspended at 10.49 improper practice. a.m. until 11.10 a.m. 4192 Tattersall Instant Lottery [ASSEMBLY

The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ machines-I say pretending because be­ man)-Order! I have considered the fore that last election they pretended matter before the Chair. As pointed out to oppose casinos and later they were by the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, in favour of them. The 'same honourable section 11 (1) (b) of the Tattersall Con­ members are silently blessing-- sultations Act provides that the Gov­ ernor in Council may -make regulations The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ for or with respect to: man)-Order! The motion does not relate to casinos or poker machines. I providing safeguards against fraudulent or im­ ask the honourable member to confine proper practices in respect of Consultations or soccer football pool or tickets therein or the his remarks to the motion before the drawing thereof. Chair. The thrust of the motion relates to the Mr TREZISE-The same members of Governmenfs action, or inaction, on Parliament are giving the introduction safeguarding the community, particular­ of instant lottery or mini poker games ly young persons, from the practice of their blessing and those games will have selling tickets of this kind. The words a much worse effect on the community that are most important in this context than poker machines. are "fraudulent or improper". The im­ portant question is whether it can be Mr B. J. EVANS (Gippsland East)­ considered an improper practice. On a point of order, the motion in no way questions the game of instant I have consulted the Shorter Oxford lottery. It simply refers to adequate Dictionary and the W ebster' s dictionary safeguards needed for the protection of and I am satisfied that a consideration of the communi.ty, particularly young whether it is improper to sell tickets by persons. I suggest that any argument vending machine is immaterial. The on whether the ga'me is appropriate or major consideration is whether the legitimate or any argument about the tickets may be sold to young people or game itself is out of order because it i's adolescents or even young children. I not related to the motion. interpret section 11 (1 ) (b) as meaning that it its within the responsibility of the The SPEAKER-Order! I do not up­ Government to consider this matter. hold the point of order. It could be said Therefore, I accept the adjournment that the ultimate protection for the com­ motion. munity would be to ban the game alto­ Mr TREZISE (Geelong North)-I gether. move: Mr TREZISE (Gee long North)-Hon­ ThBlt the House do now adjourn. ourablemembers on the Government This motion concerns perhaps the most side of the House are wishing to safe­ immoral, unacceptable 'and ill-conceived guard the community against undesi,r­ gambling form to be imposed in Victoria. able games, such as instant 10Uo for all It has been accepted by a "Holier than ages, which I suggest is ten times worse thou" Govemment that is steeped in than poker machines. Therefore, by hypocrisy, that is not only heading down blessing this type of gambling game, I the road to ruin, but is also prepared to consider that members of the Govern­ ruin the lives of many young people by ment party are nothing more than giving them the legal right to gamble sanctimonious hypocrites because thP with the new instant money game's. poker machine industry, from whicl1 "0" day is Saturday, 12 December they want to safeguard this State, com­ when the instant lottery or 'mini poker pared with the instant lottery game, is game, as it is known, will be booming far less dangerous. There is little differ­ in Victoria to the tune of about $1'5 ence between their operations. They million turnover a week. Honourable both rely on the winner having three members on the Government side of the of a kind and they are both mainly paid T..J ouse are !lretending to oppose poker cash on the snot. 3 December 1981] Tattersall Instant Lottery 4193

Of course, there are some differences. are supporting the introduction of this At least people using poker machines game, or perhaps have not made up must be more than eighteen years of their minds on the matter. age and must be members of a club or approved by a member. Anyone can play A person can buy instant lottery the form of gambling known as instant tickets in the same places where one lottery. Anyone can play, from toddlers buys Tattslotto tickets and ordinary to centenarians. lottery tickets, namely, through Tatt's branches and Tatt's accredited repre­ The SPEAKER-I ask honourable sentatives, which can include any milk members on both sides of the House to bar in a shopping centre, because the cease interjecting and shouting to each agents selected by the George Adams other across the Chamber. organization or Tattersall consultations are not selected or perused by the Gov­ Mr TREZISE-This gambling game ernment. They are selected by the pays cash on the spot for a winner with George Adams organization itself. The three of a kind, the same as poker Totalizator Agency Board agencies must machines. Any person can play, from be vetoed or approved by the Minister for toddlers to grandparents. The .iackpot Youth, Sport and Recreation. However, with poker machines is from $100 to Tatt's agents can be established in every $200. The jackpot amount with instant nook and cranny where there is a shop­ lottery, whether for young children or ping centre, such as a shop in the adults. is $500000, which is a large electorate that I represent that sells difference. newspapers and cards. I shall demonstrate how the game I shall deal with the prizes for instant works to the House, for honourable lottery. In every 5 million tickets there members who do not have a copy of the are 600 000 $2 prizes, 152 500 $5 prizes, mat.erial on it. It is due to come into 1750 $50 prizes, 500 $100 prizes, 100 operation on Saturday week-I hope not $500 prizes, 100 $1000 prizes and 20 -and the George Adams organization $10000 prizes. The grand draw prize ils has furnished the Opposition with details $500 000 which is far more than with of the game that it intends to introduce, poker machines. with the Government's blessing. A player has a card with a cover and must When one buys a Tattersall's consulta­ scratch the front of the cover. If a tion ticket, one takes it away and player gets the three of a kind, he quietens down until. the results of the collects on the spot, if it is below a draw. However, in the case of instant certain amount. lottery, one buys a ticket and goes back straight away to buy another ticket. The SPEAKER-Order! I ask the That is the difference between the two Leader of the National Party to cease games. interjecting; he will have an opportunity Mr JONA (Minister for Community of refuting the argument later. In Welfare Services) -I raise a point of addition, for the clarity of Hansard I order, Mr Speaker. The honoura~le remind honourable members that when member is constantly making an In­ they bring material into the Chamber correct statement and basing his argu­ they shall demonstrate what they are ment upon that. What he is saying is talking about. If the honourable member that all purchasers of the instant lottery wishes to discuss the cards, he should tickets-- clearly indicate how they work and not The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ demonstrate by holding the card up, man)-The Minister will have the because Hansard cannot explain the opportunity to refute that argument demonstration. when he speaks in the debate. Mr TREZISE-I shall explain how the Mr TREZISE-To set the record game works clearly, particularly for straight, and to give the Minister the members of the Government party who proper information-and he is one 4194 Tattersall Instant Lottery [ASSEMBLY member in the Cabinet who should I would presume that about 99·9 per have known the full facts-the collec­ cent of voters who will judge the Gov­ tion of prizes over the counter is re­ ernment and the Opposition in the near stricted to the smaller prizes, but the future are totally opposed to minors bigger prizes are collected from Tatter­ being able to play this gambling game. saIl's itself. The Premier says that he will request When will instant lottery be intro­ Tattersall's not to sell instant lottery duced? It starts on Saturday, December tickets to minors. Who runs this State, 12, and the brochure says that if the George Adams or the Government? response is as enthusiastic and as con­ This State Government has a respon­ fident as it is believed it will be, some­ sibility under the Act to impose restric­ one will be $500000 richer. "Therefore, tions in the interests of the Victorian keep your lucky cents it could be you." community. It could be any child around'the State The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ of Victoria. man)-The honourable member for I want to put it clearly to you, Mr Noble Park will cease interjecting. Speaker, to the House and to the public, that there is a dangerous element in Mr TREZISE-When I spoke yester­ this instant money game which is un­ day to an officer from George Adams, like other legal forms of gambling I was told that it is legal to sell these approved by this Parliament. In this tickets to children in agencies. I tele­ game one can receive a cash prize and phoned the Treasury yesterday and was then double up with another ticket. told that it is legal to sell these instant There are no after race payouts on the lottery tickets to children, and the Totalizator Agency Board, because this same thing is stated in the newspapers .. Government says that it does not want In today's Age, the Tattersall's organi­ a betting-shop atmosphere. What at­ zation has confirmed that children mosphere will the selling of these in­ would not be "excluded from buying stant lotteries create? The people in tickets in the new lotteries that offer these agencies will be in a betting-shop prizes between $2 and $5000. If Gov­ atmosphere, the same as in the Totali­ ernment members support that prin­ zator Agency Board agencies. People ciple, the Opposition does not. will buy a ticket; if they do not win All parties will agree that it is against they will buy another one, and then the law for any person under the age throw their tickets in the bin. Children of eighteen years to place a bet with will come in after school, scrounge in bookmakers; it is against the law for the rubbish bins to see if they can a person under the age of eighteen find a prize. That is only human nature. years to drive a motor car; it is against When betting on the Totalizator Agency the law for any person under the age Board, one goes home and waits for the of eighteen years to go into an hotel, race to be run, perhaps one waits for and the penalty is against the person a few hours, and with Tattslotto one who deals with that particular child. In has to wait until Saturday night to this case, any agency can sell an in­ see how the balls fall on television. stant Tattersall's ticket to a person There are people in Pentridge today under the age of eighteen years. because of impulse betting. They lose on one bet and then have another bet The agencies will make a profit of straight away. It is like betting on two­ 10 cents on each ticket and they will up. if two heads come up in a row, not be worrying whether a person is one doubles up on the tails, and be­ seventeen years or seventeen years and fore one knows it one is down the drain six months. In most cases they want financially, and often it is with some­ the maximum profit. Children, without one else's finance. As I said, there are doubt, will gamble their lunch moneys; people in State institutions because they will gamble away the change from they are compulsive gamblers, and on­ shopping expeditions, and often will the-spot gambling in agencies will set commit crimes to obtain money to the same pattern. gamble on these tickets. It will put the Mr TrezLc;e 3 December 1981] Tattersall Instant Lottery 4195 lure of a prize of $500000 before chil­ 1979. Two and half years later no dren of 14, 15, 16 and 17 years of age, action has been taken to combat that and that will be very tempting to an recommendation of the Opposition. It immature child. It is wrong indeed. A is all right for Government members tremendous amount of domestic strife to sit silent and to worry about an will be caused between parents and election in three or four months time, children. If children are encouraged to but they should have acted in the past gamble when they are young, they will two or three years on this matter. be well on the road to becoming ad­ dicts by the time they are eighteen Honourable members interjecting. years of age. The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ man)-Order! I have a number of times The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ asked the honourable member for man)-The honourable member for Noble Park and the Minister for Tour­ Noble Park and the Minister for ism to cease interjecting. I do not Tourism should cease interjecting. wish to ask them again. Mr TREZISE-It is a last-minute Mr TREZISE-I repeat this to show decision by the Premier today-he is that the present Premier was also somersaulting again, as he usually does aware of the situation at about that -to request Tattersall's not to sell to time. On 8 July 1979 the main headline minors. He has had years to think on the front page of the Sunday about this situation. Government mem­ Observer was "Pokies scheme for milk bers have had years to think about a bars". The article read: solution to the problem because this Tattersalls are considering an instant money matter was raised in 1979 in this House, lottery for Victoria based on a system now and Government members sat and lis­ cperating in South Australia. tened to the problem that would arise in Victoria in the future through "in­ If it is a "lucky" number they will be entitled to receive a cash prize which can be collected stant money". Now they are trying to immediately from the owner of the premises. do a last minute somersault. On 5 July 1979, when speaking on the Tattersalls This week MPs of both major parties slammed Consultations (Amendment) Bill, I said the plan. Labor frontbencher Neil Trezise the following: condemned it as "nothing more than a scheme to reduce milk bars and supermarkets to the I put it on record now, and I may be shot status of betting shops". down in flames in six months' time if I am wrong, that the present $1 lottery will be The Minister for Youth, Sport and Recreation terminated within the next two or three months, Brian Dixon is also opposed to the lottery. But and will be replaced by a new and. in my view, he said: "It's not up to me". distasteful form of gambling which is also distasteful to the Queensland and New South Acting Premier and Treasurer Lindsay Wales Governments. The new system of Tatter­ Thompson said last night: "I have heard about sail's will be introduced without reference to the scheme. It is within the law. We will be Parliament, as the Premier said yesterday and closely watching any move by Tattersalls to as claimed by the George Adams people and introduce it." will be known as "Instant Money". As one who endorses the maiority of forms of gam­ At about the same time a report ap­ bling in this State, I will not support this peared in the Truth newspaper as a system in any way when the licence comes result of a special investigation by through, I predict that instant money will be Brian Blackwell, who also spoke about in Victoria within the next few months. this scheme, which he says should be Already the Tattersall's people admit that called "Come on sucker, come on". In they have been overseas and to South Australia studying this type of instant money game that the article he wrote after going to will bring in lucrative returns to the George South Australia he stated, under the Adams organization and perhaps will increa3e heading "Instant money lottery-a new revenue to the State coffers, I believe it is completely unwarranted as far as the State game": of Victoria is concerned. "Come on sucker, come on, come on" should be the theme song of the Instant Money Game. The view of the Opposition on this Countless thousands of money hungry South subject was clearly put and, I trust, Australians are caught up in the game's com­ absorbed by the Government, in July pelling web. 4196 Tattersalllnstant Lottery [ASSEMBLY

They are pouring millions of dollars into the Cabinet? Has it been approved by every coffers of the South Australian Government in what, for most of them, will be a fruitless member of the Liberal Party and the attempt to obtain what the game offers­ National Party, but particularly the instant money. Liberal Party members, because they were the people who made this de­ People from an walks of life crowded into cision? the main lotteries office in busy Rundle Mall right in the heart of Adelaide. Did the honourable member for So steady was the stream of people that Bendigo approve this instant money the automatic doors never closed during several game? Was it approved by the honour­ hours. able member for Ballarat South, the In the lunch hour, the queues spread from the honourable member for Box Hill, the counter of the office out into the Mall walkway. honourable member for Sandringham, I saw dozens of children buying tickets. the honourable member for Noble Park, Others helped their parents to scratch away the surface of the tickets to see if a prize had and so on? These are the people who been won. say they are concerned about gaming Most people who won $2 or $5 did not bother in Victoria and want to protect the to take away the cash-they bought more social quality of the Victorian way of tickets. life, but apparently they are prepared to let this proposal go ahead without Ticket sellers in the main office encourage any control being exercised over it winners of small prizes to reinvest by asking "Do you want cash or more tickets?" or any investigation being undertaken -lock, stock and barrel, immediatelv- South Australians are buying an amazing Therefore when the vote is called 500000 $1 Instant Money Game tickets each on this motion and it is time for week. honourable members to rise in their The similarities are clear. A poker machine seats and state where they stand on player strives for "three of a kind". So does an this issue, the Opposition will be inter­ Instant Money Game player. ested to see what they do. They will either stand up and vote against the And children cannot play poker machines. proposed new scheme or they will face Children can play the Instant Money Game. the consequences in the electorates. Poker machine players have to be members of a club to play. Instant Money Games players It is all right for the Government do not. They can just walk in off the street and to say that it has nothing to do with play the game in an agency. it and that it is up to the George The Government has had two years, Adams organization and Tattersall's to and the Premier said he would have decide. Any Government that is worth a close look at it. What sort of a its salt must have control over the look has he had at it? What sort of Victorian way of life. Any Govern­ a look has the party meeting had at ment that is prepared to let itself be it in the past two weeks? From the pushed around in an irresponsible way sound of the interjections, I gather and says that it will not make demands that there has been very little con­ that it has in its power to do is weak. sideration of it. Honourable members know how weak The Government is not sure what the Victorian Government is. has been done in the past week, be­ The Tattersall's organization would cause yesterday in answer to a ques­ have been happy to do what the Gov­ tion the Premier said that the matter ernment wanted it to do. It has been was out of his hands and that it stated in the newspapers in the past was up to Tattersall's to decide. How­ few days that the Tattersall's people ever, in another place the Minister of are prepared to impose limitations on Water Supply said that the Treasury the sale of these tickets, and that if had approved the scheme going ahead. the Government requests it, they will Has it been approved by the Treasurer co-operate with the Government. Why to go ahead or has it not been ap­ does the Government not request that proved? Has it been approved by the to be done? Why does the Government Cabinet, and every member of the not take action and force them to act Mr Trezise 3 December 1981] Tattersalllnstant Lottery 4197 on this matter, and force their agents Mr TREZISE-The Government has to act on it? This applies not only to brought in this gaming action without those in the George Adams organiza­ knowing the full consequences of it, tion, but also to the people down the and I am pointing out why it does lane who sell the tickets in the not know the full consequences of it. agencies. The SPEAKER-Order! Perhaps if the Mr Jona-Read the Act and find out. honourable member had wanted to Mr TREZISE-The Act does not debate that matter he should have debar any person under eighteen years phrased the motion more widely. The of age from buying an instant lottery motion is fairly specific, and I ask him ticket, so the Minister should read the to speak within the confines of the Act again and act on the Act. motion. The trouble with the State today is Mr TREZISE-I will sum up by say­ that it has become bankrupted be­ ing that the Government is nothing cause of the squandering and wasting but a bunch of gambling greenhorns. of money-money that has been cor­ If it had a committee that could review rupted from Government departments this instant money game, the Govern­ and in land deals. ment would learn what will happen The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ from next Saturday week on. If it man}-Order! The honourable member had a committee to advise it on the for Geelong North knows very well social consequences of the instant that he is straying from the motion. money game, and what the game will I ask him to come back to the motion. mean to the State in money terms and the effect it will have on other gaming, Mr TREZISE-The Liberal Govern­ it would not be permitted to begin ment is mainly concerned with money. uncontested. The Cain Labor Government next year During the past quarter of an hour, will be mainly interested in the people honourable members on the Govern­ of Victoria, because for too long the ment side of the Chamber have been Government has stumbled along in the interjecting about poker machines. I dark with no interest, no control over shall reply to them, because the Labor and no experience in the valuable and Party has a clear policy, which is growing industry of gaming. It is one responsible and which has been of the few growth industries in the accepted by every person in this State. State. The major growth industry of gaming represents 11 per cent of the The SPEAKER-Order! The honour­ tax-raising sources of the State Gov­ able member for Geelong North should ernment. According to the Australian not reply to any interjections and he Bureau of Statistics, last year Victoria certainly should not reply to interjec­ raised $1590 million in taxes from tions that do not relate to the motion Victorian sources, of which $175 mil­ before the Chair. l ion came from gaming. Mr TREZISE-The hypocrites on the Government side of the House support As I said before, the Government poker machines in their correspondence does not know where it is going. Not and in their verbal statements outside one Minister has a deep knowledge this place, but not inside this place. or experience of or interest in the They would be embarrassed if I con­ various forms of gaming in Victoria. tinued with this topic. Why does the If they had that experience, this major Government not have some sort of industry would not be split up into four inquiry into the instant money game or five departments. before it is introduced? A Minister in The SPEAKER-Order! The motion another place said that we do not need has nothing to do with the various inquiries into gaming in this State be­ forms of gaming. The honourable mem­ cause they would be a charade. Would ber has touched on that subject more it be a charade to appoint a judge than lightly, and he should now come and a member of the church to look back to the motion before the chair. into the situation? That statement was 4198 Tattersall Instant Lottery [ASSEMBLY an insult, not only to the people who exercise a power that is not available would sit on such an independent in­ to it-and I shall explain that in a quiry, but also to the people of this moment-under the present Act to State, and it is a reflection of the exclude sales of these tickets to chil­ intelligence of the Government. dren and should, in place of that, direct The Government is quite prepared that the sales be restricted to adults to set up an inquiry to investigate the and allowed only through machines. social aspects of Victorian Football That is what the honourable member League Sunday football at a specific for Geelong North is really saying and venue in Melbourne, but it is not pre­ that is what the people of Victoria pared to hold an inquiry into the lik·ely ought to know. It is obvious in the social effects on young people of the light of the honourable member's instant money game throughout the speech today and in the light of the length and breadth of the State. Labor Party's attitude to the introduc­ tion of poker machines in Victoria. The The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ question I want to ask is: What cosy man)-Order! The honourable mem­ little arrangement is there between ber's time has expired. the Australia' Labor Party and the Mr WILKES (Northcote)-Under the machine manufacturers? The honour­ provisions of Standing Order 26 (c), I able member for Geelong North, who move: is interjecting continually while I speak, That the honourable member be allowed to is getting very sensitive when I men­ continue his speech for a further 5 minutes. tion the machine manufacturers, which this Government excluded from this Mr CRABB (Knox)-I second the exercise as a condition for Tattersall's motion. going ahead. The honourable member The motion was negatived. for Geelong North seems to have a nice, cuddly relationship with these Mr JONA (Minister for Community machine manufacturers. I suspect the Welfare Services) -Surely we have Government has upset the sort of just heard one of the greatest tongue­ arrangement the Labor Party would in-cheek speeches ever delivered in this have loved to have had with those place. It was certainly the greatest machine manufacturers, if it were in tongue-in-cheek speech ever delivered Government. by the honourable member for Geelong North, the Opposition spokesman on The Australian Labor Party has a matters involving youth, sport and horrible problem on its conscience recreation, who has now become the concerning gambling generally, but par­ custodian of public morality in Vic­ ticularly concerning the line it has so toria. He was speaking on behalf of far taken with respect to poker a party that has taken over this role. machines. It is simply hypocritical for Despite its policies on a wide range any member of that party to come into of matters that almost border on the this House and suggest that the Gov­ immoral, it has set itself up as the ernment has not taken the public custodian of morals, all provoked by interest to heart and has not been one area of activity among the oper­ concerned with the social responsibili­ ations of Tattersall consultations. ties of the Government in connection with gambling. Speaking in my capacity as Acting Minister for Youth, Sport and Recrea­ Section 11 (1) (b) of the Tattersall tion in this debate-I just wanted to Consultations Act gives the Governor clarify that for the benefit of the hon­ in Council the power to make regula­ ourable member for Geelong North-I tions providing safeguards against suspect that there is an ulterior motive fraduluent or improper practices in behind this motion. We ought to exam­ relation to consultations or soccer ine what the ulterior motive might be, football pools or tickets thereon or on because what the Opposition is really the drawing thereof. It is the view of Eaying is that the Government should the Crown Solicitor, the professional 3 December 1981] Tattersalllnstant Lottery 4199 adviser to the Government on this sort Mr Trezise--When? of matter, that the Government does Mr JONA-I said it would be at the not have the power, under the present earliest opportunity, and it may be la w, to direct the trustees on this earlier than you think! matter. Mr Trezise-What about this week? Mr Trezise--You have done nothing to protect the people. Mr JONA-They are running for Mr JONA-What the Government cover now! It may well be this week; has done in order to take every possible it will depend on the business of the safeguard available to it for the pro­ House. The honourable member for tection of the community, particularly Geelong North submitted from the out­ young children, is that it has asked set as one of his main arguments in the Tattersall trustees to direct their support of the motion that there would ticket agents-- be extended payouts. The honourable member went on to argue that huge Honourable members interjecting. prizes would be handed over the Mr JONA-Listen, and you will get counter to four-year-old children. I the facts! suppose he imagined that this would be $500000 one day and $250 000 the Honourable members interjecting. next day! Only after constant pressure The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ and interjection from me, backed up by man)-Order! I ask the honourable interjection from the Leader of the member for Geelong North to cease National Party, did the honourable his barrage of interjections. He has member for Geelong North admit that made his contribution to the debate the only cash prizes to be paid over and he was heard with reasonable the counter would be those of a $2 or decorum, particularly on the part of $5 denomination. the Minister for Community Welfare Services; I ask him to show the Min­ The honourable member wanders ister the same courtesy. around various gambling centres out­ side this place and has the audacity to Mr JONA-The Government has come into the Parliament and suggest ask,ed the Tattersall's trustees to ensure that the social conscience of this Gov­ that their ticket agents be directed-it ernment and the community is under­ is only the trustees who can direct mined. The honourable member tries to them, not the Government-not to sell suggest that children are being ruined. tickets to minors. This will be closely Measures are being introduced whereby monitored by the Government. the Tattersall's organization will be I now give a firm undertaking on asked not to sell tickets to children and behalf of the Government-and listen the only prizes anyone can collect will to this, because we will test the sin­ be of $2 and $5 denominations. What cerity of the Opposition shortly-I hypocrisy by the Opposition! It must give an assurance to the Parliament, be emphasized time and time again that an unqualified assurance on behalf of an ulterior motive lies behind the the Government, that the Government motion. The ulterior motive is not will legislate to exclude children from concern for children because they will the sales of these tickets. The Gov­ not be collecting any prizes and will ernment will introduce proposed legis­ not be subject to tickets sales from the lation at the earliest opportunity and scheme. Proposed legislation will be we will then see whether the Opposi­ introduced to test the sincerity of the tion guarantees it a speedy passage. honourable member. Mr Trezise--When? The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ Mr JONA-We will then see whether man)-I ask the Minister to address the Opposition can give it a speedy his remarks to the Chair. Hansard is passage without again putting up argu­ having difficulty hearing the comments ments in favour of machines to sell made by the Minister especially with tickets. a barrage of interjections. 4200 Tattersall Instant Lottery [ASSEMBLY

Mr JONA-The Labor Party is highly The SPEAKER-Order! The motion embarrassed about the large sums of has nothing to do wi·th poker machines. money spent on campaigns around Vic­ Mr JONA-The motion may have toria particularly on its candidates in nothing to do with poker machines but the marginal seats. No doubt people it has a great deal to do with machines who back the Labor Party think they that dispense tickets. The Government will have the opportunity, if Labor gets has ensured they will not be available into power, to make the sort of deals to dispense tickets for this lottery. This on poker machines that they want with applies to all people. The Labor Party the manufacturers of instant ticket has a secret deal with a group of un­ machines. The Labor Party has a named people- horrible conscience about the matter Mr Fordham-You are a deliberate and is trying to expunge it by intro­ ducing a meaningless motion. The liar. motion condemns the Government for The SPEAKER-Order! I ask the something it has not done. The Gov­ Deputy Leader of the Opposition to ernment could not do something that withdraw that statement. is not within its legislative powers. The Mr FORD.HAM (Footscray)-The Government is prepared to introduce Minister deliberately lied but, in defer­ legislation. ence to your ruling, Mr Speaker, I Mr Trezise--Where have you been withdraw the statement. However, it is for three years? undoubtedly the truth. The SPEAKER-Order! I cannot Mr JONA-What did the Labor Party accept that withdrawal. I ask the hon­ do when the then Premier, John Cain, ourable member to withdraw the state­ introduced the Tattersall Consultations Bill into the House in the first place. ment. Mr FORDHAM-I withdraw the Mr Trezise-He was wrong. statement. Mr JONA-I am delighted to hear Mr JONA (Minister for Community that comment from the honourable Welfare Services)-I did not wish to member for Geelong North! accuse any member of the Opposition of being dishonest or untruthful. I am The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ only repeating what is being said in the man)-Order! I wish the Minister media and by the manufacturers of would heed my remarks 'and address his comments to the Chair and not to poker machines. the cheer-squad behind him. Mr ROSS-EDWARDS (Leader of the National Party)-The adjournment Mr JONA-In heeding your com­ motion has a narrow context and the ments, Mr Speaker, I am mindful that relevant words are "the failure of the the cheer-squad behind me is repre­ Government to provide adequate safe­ sentative of the millions of cheer-squads guard for the protection of the com­ outside the Parliament. They will not munity and, in particular, young have a bar of ·this hypocrisy. The persons". That is the purpose of ·the motion was brought in with 'a tongue motion and I commend the Opposition in cheek attitude by the honourable for introducing it. member for Geelong North who poses himself as the custodian of all that is Honourable members may recall that right and good in the community. We during question time today I asked the know full well that that was never the Premier whether he would introduce purpose of the. motion. By interjection, proposed legisla·tion to ensure that the honourable members opposite can­ people under eighteen years could not not get ·the words "poker machine" off buy instant Tatt's tickets. I was dis­ their tongues. The Government has appointed with his answer because he made its position 'abundantly clear with said he would ask the Tatt's agent not respect to people who are young and to sell them and, if that were not old in relation to poker machines. satisfactory, the Government would 3 December 1981] Tattersalllnstant Lottery 4201 consider something else. That was an undertaking that a Bill will be intro­ unsatisfactory answer. I have a high duced and passed before 12 December. regard for the honourable member for Naturally, the Government will have Geelong North; he is a friend of mine. the support of the National Party to However, in his remarks the honourable make it an urgent Bill, and I trust that member glossed over the question of it will get the support of the Opposi­ whether prizes could be picked up tion to have it passed by Saturday instantly. The honourable member con­ week, 12 December. tinued to drum the issue. I would like to set things straight. The only prizes Mr Jona-I am prepared to give that that can be collected from the Tatter­ undertaking. saIl's agency are those with a $2 or $5 Mr ROSS-EDWARDS-I am delighted denomination. that the Minister has now given the Although those small prizes represent National Party and the House an un­ 95 per cent of the total prizes, they are dertaking that that will be done. only minor prizes of $2 and $5. ·Time Mr Ginifer-Without the motion you and again the Opposition spoils its would not have got the undertaking. arguments by not being specific, clear and completely honest, and that is un­ Mr Simpson-It goes to show who fortunate. If the honourable member runs the Government! for Geelong North had said that a per­ son will be able to pick up his $2 Mr ROSS-EDWARDS-Every party or his $5 but that he will not be able has its joke and the honourable mem­ to pick up a major prize, that would ber for Niddrie fultills that role. have been to the credit of the honour­ Some people will ask whether the able member, but he did not do so. agencies will observe the rule in re­ Honourable members should get an­ spect to people aged under eighteen other thing straight. This Instant Tatts years, and that is a good question. I is completely and absolutely legal under point out that that rule is well observed the law of Victoria at present. The by the Totalizator Agency Board. The legislation that made it legal years spirit of the rule is kept and the TAB ago was supported by the Opposition exercices its discretion, as I am sure and by the Government. It is useless Tattersall's agents will. For those who for the Opposition to say that it does do not know, a Tattersall's agency is a not like the situation. The Opposition valuable agency to own and an agent voted for the legislation but Opposition who breaks the law risks losing his members are now squealing. agency, so I am sure the rule will be observed in the same way as it is An Honourable Member-They were observed by the TAB. I regret that the not being honest enough. Government did not have the foresight Mr ROSS-EDWARDS-That is fair to make a move in relation to this enough! It is good to· hear an Opposi­ matter. I gave the Government warn­ tion spokesman admit that his col­ ing enough at ten o'clock this morning leagues were not being honest enough. and even at that hour something Each and every member has had the could have been done. opportunity of voting on the matter. There have been many debates on Tat­ Mr Fordham-That is not our tersall's since the honourable member motion. for Geelong North has been a member Mr ROSS-EDWARDS-It is not your of this place and he has not introduced motion, but the point is that the under­ any amendments to the law. taking given by the Government satis­ The real question is to assess where fies the National Party: I should we stand on the question of protec­ imagine it satisfies back-bench Govern­ tion, particularly for young persons. ment members and it should satisfy The National Party and I want from thinking members of the Opposition. the Government a clear and unqualified For those reasons, the undertaking 4202 Tattersall Instant Lottery [ASSEMBLY having been given firmly and unquali­ been able to do their sums, I point fiedly that a Bill will be introduced in­ out that $2 million in prize money will to Parliament and passed by Friday be passed over the counters of milk week, the National Party will not sup­ bars throughout Australia. port the motion. Mr Jona-Are you linking Tatter­ Mr CRABB (Knox)-This debate has saIl's with the Mafia? degenerated into a farce with a third­ Mr CRABB-Perhaps the Minister rate vaudeville act from the Acting would do better to take his valium. Minister for Youth, Sport and Recrea­ The reality is that the prizes and the tion, who is content to put aside his money that flows through this scheme social welfare responsibilities. One will go out at the pOint of contact. statement he made, which was repeated by the Leader of the National Party, Another matter referred to this was that only minor prizes will be paid morning was the machines. Although at the point of sale. he did not mention it in this debate, the Premier has said publicly that there Mr Ross-Edwards-It is true, though. will be no poker machines in Victoria, Mr CRABB-There will be 600 000 but the Gove(nment has an absolute prizes of $2, representing $1·2 million; commitment to machines. The Minister there will be 152500 prizes of $5, of Transport, Mr Maclellan, is on the representing a further $762500, which record as having said publicly in Sep­ means that nearly $2 million will be tember of this year that dispensing paid out at the point of sale. A fur­ machines are now available whereby ther $550 000 will be paid out in $50, a person puts a coin in the machine $100 and $500 prizes, including 100 and receives a ticket. Those machines prizes at $1000 and 20 prizes at were not in existence when the Gov­ $10000. The draw will then be made ernment passed legislation which now for one prize of $500000, one at covers them. The Minister of Trans­ $10000, and eight at $5000-a total of port, on behalf of the Government, had $550000, representing 11 per cent of publicly committed the Government to the $5 million in tickets. the introduction of machines whereby To be legally operated under the one puts in a coin or a note 'and out Act that this Minister believes he un­ comes a ticket which one then checks derstands, it must be a sweepstake. If to see whether it has won a prize. The it is a sweepstake, only 11 per cent Government's commitment is on the of the pool involved is in the substan­ record. tial draw. Of the $5 million collected, In the past two or three days, hon­ $2 million will be paid out at the point ourable members have heard the pious of sale. This is as far from being a humbug of Ministers who do not even sweepstake as one could conceivably understand their own policy and their imagine. own intentions. The Premier said this week that the Liberal Party is opposed It is the Harlem numbers game that to poker machines and that that oppo­ will be operated under the protection sition still remains the firm policy of of this Government. It is the same num­ the Government. The Government bers game that has been exploiting Leader in the Legislative Council is people for decades. quoted as having said there was no In the pUblicity material produced by prospect whatsoever that the Liberal Tattersall's the following appears: Party would change its mind on legal­ Question: Has this lottery been tried in other izing poker machines. Here, we are not parts of the world or in Australia? talking about machines into which one Answer: Yes, it has enjoyed great populari~'y puts a coin and up come three lemons in some States of the USA. and one wins a prize. We are talking It is ,also popular with the Mafia, the about a machine into which one puts people who run the numbers game, money, out comes a piece of paper, and it is being introduced here. In this one checks it and if it has three lemons new miracle, for those who have not on it one wins a prize. 3 December 1981] Tattersalllnstant Lottery 4203

What is the difference? The differ­ Government has not disclosed any in­ ence is that poker machines in those forma tion on the social and economic States that have them are tightly con­ impact that this measure will have. trolled-or at least they are supposed Looking at the honourable members to be tightly controlled. I take the point opposite, one wonders whether any of of the honourable member for Noble them even knew what the Govern­ Park, who laughs .. They are supposed ment was going to do. One wonders to be tightly controlled. This thing be­ whether this matter was discussed in ing introduced into this State by the either the party or Cabinet rooms. Was Government is, to all intents and the measure arrived at after a back­ purposes, exactly the same as poker room-deal was done with the trustees machines but with one significant of Tattersall consultations? The Min­ difference-that it is cO'11pletely un­ ister for Community Welfare Services, controlled. who is the present Acting Minister for Youth, Sport and Recreation, has not The Premier of this State has said informed the House of how and why that it is beyond the capacity 'of the this measure will be introduced. That Government to control the matter. The honourable gentleman did not inform Leader of the National Party says this the House on the discussions that he operation is perfectly legal and that the was involved in leading up' to the in­ Government can do nothing about it, troduction of instant lotteries. Indeed, that Tattersall's have a right to do on that basis, one can only presume what they like. that the honourable gentleman was not Honourable members should look at involved in those discussions. the definition of "consultation". It Mr Jona-It was with Tattersall con­ says, "Equals a sweepstake". How sultations and not with the poker can this proposed operation be machine manufacturers. defined as a sweepstake, something where one pays $1 for a ticket, Mr CRABB-The Minister interjects scratches it and perhaps wins a prize? and says that he was involved with The Government will legislate for the discussions with Tattersall consulta­ introduction of machines, which to all tions. I am surprised that the honour­ intents and purposes, are exactly the able gentleman did not inform the same as poker machines. The one sig­ House of what arguments he put for­ nificant difference is that the Govern­ ward on the social impact these ment will not constrain the use of machines will have. those machines to either licensed clubs or impose licensing controls. That is an Honourable members interjecting. outrage. The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ man)-Order! I ask honourable mem­ The Government has taken decisions bers to cease debate by interjection. without giving the slightest considera­ tion to the social or economic effects Mr CRABB-The Leader of the Nat­ that the decisions will have. The ional Party did no more than re­ Minister for Community Welfare Ser­ iterate those matters that had been vices has specific responsiblity for better put by the Acting Minister for social welfare, that is, to look after the Youth, Sport and Recreation. The Gov­ unfortunate people in the community ernment is prepared to belatedly intro­ who need protection. That honourable duce legislation to prevent these lottery gentleman has abdicated his responsi­ tickets from being sold to persons bility and, to add insult to injury, has under the age of eighteen years. The walked into this House and defended Lotteries Gaming and Betting Act pre­ this devious scheme that is being per­ vents wagers being placed by persons petrated. under the age of eighteen years. How­ ever, the machines will enable young The Government has not even con­ people to lay wagers. ducted a social impact study or an inquiry into the matter. Indeed, the Mr Collins-They are not machines. 4204 Tattersalllnstant Lottery [ASSEMBLY

Mr CRABB-They are machines. The being exploited. It is interesting to note Government has indicated that on and that the Lotteries Gaming and Betting from 15 December, these machines will (Amendment) Bill is Order of the Day, be accepted, and I refer the honourable Government Business, No. 31. member for Noble Park to that section Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ of Hansard that I quoted from. The port) -The honourable member for Government is committed to the intro­ Knox has magnificently confused two duction of machines into which either issues, which I should imagine he has a coin or a note is placed, a handle done with a purpose, namely, to con­ is pulled and a ticket comes out. If fuse the debate rather than to examine the ticket has three lemons on it, a the debate. prize is won. If those machines are not the same as poker machines, I If the honourable member for Knox am a monkey's uncle. The Government was serious in his concern about the is being deceitful. "payout", as he put it, of $2 million, the adjournment motion before the Under the Lotteries G~ming and House should have made some refer­ Betting Act, persons under eighteen ence to that concern. Perhaps the hon­ years of age are prohibited from either ourable memb~r might have suggested betting or wagering. No restriction has that bingo and similar games should ever been placed on young people pur­ not have a payout of $5 but only of $2. chasing a ticket in a con~u1tation, that I gained the impression from some is, a ticket in a sweepstake. However, of the more socially attuned members the measure that will be introduced opposite-and today appears to be an on 12 December could hardly be unusual day for it-that perhaps it described as a sweepstake, because $2 should be pocket money for children million of the $3 million payout will . and that should be the limit. If the be collected instantly. The operation of Opposition is serious in putting for­ the machines could be better described ward the proposition that it is dan­ as - either a bet or a wager than it gerous to have payouts of $5 or $2 could a purchase of a ticket in a because of the over-all amount that sweepstake. There can be no doubt that is covered by those payments, it should the Minister will be burning the mid­ say so. Then the Parliament co~l~ co~­ night oil and trying to draft an amend­ sider the views of the OPPosItIOn In ment that will give legislative form to deciding whether the Parliament ought the undertaking he has given to the to amend that as well. House. The Government is saying that it The SPEAKER (the Hon. S. J. Plow­ proposes to introduce legislation to man)-Order! If the honourable mem­ adopt the very matter that the Oppo­ ber for Niddrie and the Leader of the sition is telling the House it is con­ National Party wish to have a conver­ cerned about, and that is, it is con­ sation across the Chamber, they should cerned that children might buy a ticket. at least do so behind the Speaker's I am delighted with the Opposition's chair or outside the Chamber. concern about that prospect. Indeed, I daresay that the Opposition may wish Mr CRABB-This Harlem numbers to introduce legislation to ensure that game should never have been intro­ persons of seventeen years of age do duced into Victoria. It should not have not enter Totalizator Agency Board even been considered without an ex­ agencies and purchase tickets. I do not amination of the social implications. It know where the social harm in that is outrageous that the Government has is involved, but the community has abdicated its capacity to govern. I look decided that eighteen years is the mini­ forward to hearing the debate when mum age at which a person can enter the Minister introduces the proposed a Totalizator Agency Board agency to legislation shortly. It will be interesting place a bet. I do not suppose that the to note how that proposed legislation community is about to urge that that would prevent young children from limit be lowered. However, it is hard 3 December 1981] Tattersalllnstant Lottery 4205

to build up an immense and dramatic tickets for prize money. Obviously he case on that matter, especially when was anticipating the Opposition's view the spokesman who moved the motion on that Bill-that that was a bad thing. for the Labor Party distinguished him­ I shall go no further than that. self from this Parliament by saying that the Government ought to introduce The SPEAKER-If that were the legislation immediately on the Stawell case, the Chair was not aware of it. Gift because the bookmakers who It is a pity the Minister did not raise a operate on the Stawell Gift have pOint of order regarding the comments made by the honourable member for recently been the subject of pros~cu­ tion for calling the card without legis­ Knox. I would have upheld his point of lative authority. The House knows order. when the Opposition wants instant Mr MACLELLAN-I did not wish to legislation, and it does not want instant do that. I did not want to inhibit de­ legislation in this matter. bate because, as I said in my opening The only sort of machine the Labor remarks, I felt the honourable member Party is opposed to is that machine for Knox had confused the issue by that one puts a coin into and obtains referring to a Bill on· the Notice Paper a ticket from to travel on the rail­ and then using the arguments relating ways. The Labor Party has made it to that Bill to the motion before the perfectly clear that that, above all, is Chair. He raised it very carefully in the most offensive machine. Ticket terms of his concern for young people. vending machines for public trans­ The Government has said that it will port really upset the Labor Party. introduce legislation to prevent the They do not appear in this Parliament sale of instant lottery tickets to young to have the same commitment against people. The Government will be look­ having poker machines. In other words, ing for the co-operation of both the the Labor Party proposes some soft Labor Party and the National Party in option-a "keep the options open" type giving that Bill a speedy passage. I of approach. One would have thought take it that is what the Opposition the Leader of the Opposition might motion seeks to obtain. have followed the course he adopted in the past and given an undertaking that, Mr Speaker, one could speculate during the life of the next Parliament, about what the Opposition is really up the Labor Party would not introduce to but obviously that would go outside poker machines in Victoria. the terms of your more strict rules of debate. I have to say that a commitment The SPEAKER (the Hoo. S. J. Plow­ was also given by the Minister for mao}-Order! The motion has nothing Community Welfare Services: I simply to do with poker machines. The House repeat his remarks. I did not raise a is debating Tattersall's instant lottery. pOint of order regarding the Minister I ask the Minister of Transport to con­ for Community Welfare Services either fine his remarks to the adjournment when he indicated that machines would motion before the Chair. not be selling the tickets referred to Mr MACLELLAN-Mr Speaker, I in the motion. Of course, there was an will not tempt you to discipline me but attempt to raise that question, because simply say that it is common ground if the Government said it was going to between all speakers this morning that introduce legislation to prevent young young people in particular would have people from being able to buy these undisciplined access to machines. tickets from the Tattersall's agent, if one were doing it by machines how If I may draw one fact to your at­ could one control that situation? That tention, Mr Speaker, with great respect, was obviously the next argument which the honourable member for Knox spent was fairly adequately covered by the considerable time debating a Bill which Minister for Community Welfare Ser­ is on the Notice Paper and which will vices, but the honourable member for allow the use of machines to dispense Knox interjected vigorously in an effort 4206 Tattersall Instant Lottery [ASSEMBLY to get the Minister for Community Wel­ was the Opposition and the Govern­ fare Services to commit the Govern­ ment together that supported the legis­ ment to not allowing machines to be lation in the House that the Opposition used for anything anywhere. That is finds so outrageous this morning. The what he was fishing for. Having not Opposition did not find it outrageous got that the honourable member for when it was introduced. What we are Knox then went on to build his case having today is a far better debate on another item on the Notice Paper about the Bill which was passed than that has little, if anything, to do with the debate that took place when it was the motion. passed. The motion talks about the personal The Opposition has indicated that it, sale of tickets and not the sale of together with the National Party and tickets by a machine. The Government the Government, supports the view that has made it clear that it intends to in­ these sorts of tickets should not be troduce legislation to restrict the sale sold to young people. The Opposition of those tickets to people over the age . is disguising its interests. About a week of 18 years. The Premier has, on a ago the honourable member for Hea­ number of occasions, made it clear that therton was asking the Government to the Government is not in favour of give a guarantee to Tattersall's agents lottery tickets being sold by machine. that they would be able to obtain an That is the basic difference. extention of their agency beyond 1984 Of course, we are left with the even though the Government was not rather uncomfortable feeling that it is to extend the Tattersall's agreement. machines that are the major interest of He did not raise the question about the Opposition and it is attempting to kids at the time, nor, as I understand pretend that it is concerned about it, has anyone in the Opposition raised people-particularly young people. I do the question of kids until this morning. not know whether there is a cosy little When they talk about kids they illus­ arrangement between the Opposition trated not with 17 year olds but with and the machine people. I certainly 4 year olds. have not been writing articles in the The hononurable member for Knox newspapers about it. I was not a for­ seeks to confuse the whole issue by mer employee of the former Leader of talking about the total amount of prize the Opposition. I know articles appear money that might be paid out instantly in newspapers and sometimes there is rather than the limitation on that prize no truth to them. It is put that the money and whether it should be more Opposition has no arrangement with than $5. regard to these machines and yet it seems to be concerned about them. During the remainder of the debate I take it that those who produce the I would appreciate-since the Govern­ machines would be very concerned that ment is obviously now obliged to draft Tattersall's is introducing this type of and introduce proposed legislation­ machine because this kind of operation knowing whether it is the view of the allows for a minor prize to be paid out Opposition that that $5 should be re­ instantly and a major prize payout in duced, or is it the view of the Opposi­ a different direction-by having to col­ tion that there should be no instant lect it from the head office of the payout and a person should be able to organization. buy tickets under the Act they sup­ ported and which Parliament passed When we talk about the Harlem but there should be no payout? numbers game that sends a shudder down most people's spines in Victoria The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr A. T. -quite rightly. It is not inappropriate Evans)--Order! The honourable gentle­ to remind the House, and you, Mr man has two minutes left. The honour­ Speaker, that it was the Cain Labor able member for Knox has made his Government that tempted Tattersall's contribution and will not be allowed to to come from Tasmania to Victoria. It make further comments. Mr Maclellan 3 December 1981] Tattersall Instant Lottery 4207

Mr MACLELLAN-I sense that I am Welfare Services once again demon­ trespassing on delicate ground. Mem­ strated that his tongue is so bers of the Opposition do not want to long that he hangs himself every say whether they support the view of time he enters the debate and then the the honourable member for Knox that pompous Minister of Transport demon­ these payouts are a social danger. They strated that he is more concerned with do not want to disclose to Parliament histrionics than debating the issue. The whether they want to cut back on the Government is masquerading behind $5 prize money or abolish it al­ proposed legislation. It was not going· together. to do anything about the issue until the ma tter was raised by the Opposition Mr SIMPSON (Niddrie)-On a point and the shadow Minister for Youth,­ of order, the motion does not define Sport and Recreation brought to the..' the size of the payouts and what they attention of the Government that young should or should not be. I would like people would be exploited under these you, Mr Deputy Speaker, to draw that circumstances. Many years have elapsed to the attention of the Minister of since the Tattersall organization pro­ Transport. posed this scheme, and yet the Govern­ The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr A. T. ment has not led the way. Once again, Evans)-Order! There is no point of the issue demonstrates that the Gov­ order. ernment is in disarray. It is a Govern­ ment of inaction and incompetence and, Mr MACLELLAN (Minister of Trans­ because it is being led and cannot face port)-It is the corrupting influence of up to its responsibilities, it is abrogat­ the prizes put in argument by members ing its responsibilities. of the Opposition, particularly the hon­ A dramatic change will be made in ourable member for Knox, and the the fO'rm of gambling jn Victoria as a relevance is that the argument of result of the intrO'duction of instant members of the Labor Party has been Tatt's. There will be instant payouts the corruptive influence of those instant and instant winners of up to $10000. payouts on young people and I imagine Of cO'urse, the Minister of Transport they may have gone further in the case tried to confuse the issue in his refer­ of the honourable member for Knox in ences to bingo but anyone knowing saying it is a corrupting influence on the game of bingo will recognize that adults also. I am saying, firstly, that it takes at least 15 minutes to' play that there should be no confusion about it game and that it is not open to yO'ung because there will not be the ticket children. The Opposition is extremely machine sales implied by the motion concerned that instant Tatt's asa form and, secondly, legislation will be intro­ of gambling will be a lure to young duced to make the necessary arrange­ ments to allow for the disciplining of people. sales so that sales do not occur to Mr Ross-Edwards-It won't be. young persons. That is the best result Mr JOLL Y-If the Leader of the one could wish for. National Party examines the Notice The DEPUTY SPEAKER-Order! The Paper, he will perceive the backlog of honourable gentleman's time has ex­ legislative measures and realize that pired. Before calling the honourable there is no guarantee from the Govern­ member for Dandenong, I again draw ment that it will introduce legislation the attention of the House to the and have it passed before concluding behaviour of the honourable member this sessional period. for Knox, who has deliberately flouted l\1:r Jona-Yes, you have. the requests of the Chair. Further, he is interjecting from out of his place. Mr JOLLY-The Opposition has not. No one knows because the Government Mr JOLLY (Dandenong)-The debate changes its mind even during debates. has become fascinating. Firstly, the The Minister of Transport indicated garrulous Minister for Community that he had no real concern for young 4208 Tattersalllnstant Lottery [ASSEMBLY children and at the same time said providing protection of community that legislation will be introduced. The standards and protection to young chil­ honourable gentleman completely con­ dren. tradicted himself during the debate. I am extremely concerned about the A dramatic change in gambling nature of the payouts. The payouts are methods will occur and that change will instant for the largest number of prizes. be coming through the back door It has already been indicated that $2 because, as the honourable member for million from the $3 million in prize Knox said, there has not been any money will come from those instant social impact study or analysis under­ payouts; in other words, two-thirds or taken by the Government. The decision 66 per cent of the payouts will be $2 is based on straight-out reaction. The to $5 payouts-that is the lure for Government is the most reactionary young children. This gambling will Government in Australia. It has no virtuaUy be "pocket poker machines". foresight and it does not plan ahead. It The Government has the hypocrisy to waits for a crisis before deciding to do say that under no circumstances will something. If it were not for the it look at poker machines for Victoria, Opposition bringing this issue to the yet it is allowing "pocket poker attention of the public, once again no machine" gambling to be introduced in action would be taken. I am sceptical Victoria before any social impact study that legislation will be introduced to of its ramifications has been made. overcome the problem. That is the hypocrisy of the Govern­ ment. This method of gambling is different from the normal sweepstakes under­ It is well known that Tattersall's taken by the George Adams Estate. agencies are spread throughout Vic­ Firstly, as I have indicated, there will toria. They exist in milk bars, chemist be instant winners and instant payouts shops, newsagencies and supermarkets. and, secondly, as has also been stated, It is so easy to purchase these tickets. the instant payouts range from $2 to Of course, the new form of gambling $5. The attraction is the large number will come into operation in December, of small payouts. Children will be in a 1981. Legislative measures have been position where they may spend their promised and I certainly hope they will lunch money on a Tatt's ticket rather be introduced, but it appears that the than on the necessary food essential Government cannot be trusted on that for their healthy development. The aspect. The Government completely Government was not prepared to do lacks foresight-ad hoc decision mak­ anything until the Opposition raised ing dominates the Government and that the issue. The Government was not is why there is such a mess. The Gov­ prepared to take the lead. ernment will not plan ahead. It is incompetent in its financial management The move to introduce instant Tatt's and it has no concern for the social will be a revenue-raiser for the State problems facing the community now Government-that is -accepted as a and the social problem that will be fact. It will be an entirely different generated by the introduction of the form of. gambling. The Tattersall organ­ scheme. ization is .trying to take another sec-tion of the gambling market. This form of . The honourable member for Geelong gambling was introduced in South Aus­ North should be congratulated for traUa, where the turnover is $400000 introducing the motion to the House. a week and, comparing that with Tatts­ It highlights an important social prob­ lotto, which has a turnover of $600 000 lem of a new form of gambling and I a week, one can perceive the dimen­ urge every honourable member to sions of the scheme to be introduced, accept the motion. yet the Government was going to allow Mr COLLINS (Noble Park)-The a dramatic change in the gambling honourable member for Geelong North methods of the State to occur without has moved the adjournment of the Mr Jolly 3 December 1981 ] Tattersalllnstant Lottery 4209

House to discuss the failure of the Has the honourable member for Government ,to act on the TattersaU Footscray been to a fete recently when consultations proposal for an "instant he has purchased his $10 worth of lottery" by providing adequate safe­ lucky envelopes, as all local members guards for the protection of the com­ do, from the local reverend gentleman munity and in particular young persons. or members of the school committee? A clear interpretation can be placed The fact of life is that we all contrib­ on the motion that the honourable ute towards local charities and organi­ member for Geelong North was not zations which receive funds by selling saying the actual form of gambling, lucky number envelopes. consultation or sweepstake was out of order, but that he was concerned that In essence, that is what this whole safeguards had not been made for the exercise is about and there have to be community, and particularly for young controls. Maybe we ought to look people. The honourable member for closer at controlling voluntary fund­ Gee'long North was not saying that the raising activities! Is that what the action proposed was wrong but his honourable member for Geelong North concern is with the method of imple­ wants? Does the honourable 'member mentation-and he is agreeing now by for Geelong North not want his local interjection. charitable organizations and football clubs raising funds at all? Honourable members have just heard the honourable member for Dandenong It is no wonder that the Opposition take an entirely different course. The is sensitive about this. I do not think fact is the honourable member for the honourable member for Dandenong Dandenong claimed that the Opposition knows a great deal of what has been had to set the lead in terms of what going on in the background in recent had to be done in this case. I suggest times. I do not think he knows any­ thing about that, and p~rhaps the hon­ that there is no way known that this ourable member for Footscray does proposal would have got off the ground not know and maybe the honourable without the facts of life being brought member for Geelong North also does to the attention of Tattersall's in terms not know because I reckon he is a of young people. In my community pretty straight guy. However, it is there is no way known that minors clear that somebody who was close to would be allowed to take part in this the former Leader of the Opposition, exercise. If the Opposition was fair to whom all members of the Oppo­ dinkum about the way it believes it sition swore allegiance and loyalty, is charging into the sun~et. that it believes that there are 100 000 reasons is only the Opposition v/hich recog­ why the Labor Party should want poker nizes the social issues, then I warn machines. As I have stated, there are the Opposition that at some stage it 100 000 reasons why the Opposition may have to legislate on this matter does not want this proposal to pro­ also. ceed. It certainly does not want any­ For instance, how many members thing in this State that will prevent of the Opposition have recently pur­ the introduction of poker machines. chased lucky number envelopes at their There will be no poker machines; I local school fete? Can the honourable am opposed to poker machines. member for Dandenong tell me that The DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr A. T. he has never bought a lucky number Evans)-Order! The honourable mem­ envelope at his local school fete? Did ber for Noble Park was making a pass­ he have his daughter with him or his ing reference to poker machines and friend's young children with him when that was allowable until he started he made such a purchase? Has the answering questions with respect to honourable member been with any poker machines. I ask the honourable people when they have purchased lucky member to come back to the motion number envelopes? before the chair. 4210 Tattersalllnstant Lottery [ASSEMBLY

Mr COLLINS-If I can refer to allegations in terms of Her Majesty's pocket poker machines in the context Opposition! In fact, the Opposition is used by the honourable member for not taking any action against that Dandenong-I am not sure how pocket party-perhaps it is! We will see what poker machines got into the debate action the Opposition takes to refute today but pocket poker machines have the claims put forward by a former been mentioned-the fact of life is press secretary. that the Opposition is very sensitive to Mr JoUy-You are wrong again. the possibility that any form of ticket machine that may be introduced into Mr Fordham-You are a liar. the State will mean that if ever the Mr Trezise--You are a liar. Labor Party has an opportunity to The DEPUTY SPEAKER-Order! introduce poker machines, it will have The remarks of the Deputy Leader of to deal with what is already in exist­ the Opposition and the honourable ence. member for Geelong North are unpar­ Mr JOLLY (Dandenong)-On a point liamentary and I ask them both to of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, the hon­ withdraw. ourable member for Noble Park is Mr FORDHAM (Footscray)-Yes, I again digressing from the motion and of course reiterate that it is not proper is not speaking to the motion moved for me to use that word. by the Opposition. The DEPUTY SPEAKER-Order! Mr FORDHAM (Footscray)-On the There is to be no debate on my request point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, as to withdraw the remarks. I request you will realize the Speaker ruled on the Deputy Leader of the Opposition three consecutive speakers who re­ to withdraw the remark without de­ ferred to that aspect, and particularly bating the matter. repetition along the lines which the Mr FORDHAM-In deference to your honourable member for Noble Park request, Mr Deputy Speaker, of course has been perpetrating. I suggest that I withdraw, but the honourable mem­ what he has said bears no relationship ber knows he is not telling the truth. to the motion, and it has already been ruled by the Speaker that there was The DEPUTY SPEAKER-The hon­ to be no further discussion on that ourable member for Geelong North. point. Mr TREZISE (Geelong North)-I said The DEPUTY SPEAKER-Order! I that the honourable member for Noble have given my ruling that there will Park is a liar, and I will withdraw it. be no discussion on poker machines. Mr CRABB (Knox)-To keep things The honourable member for Noble Park straight, I also said he is a liar and had only recommenced his contribu­ I withdraw it. tion and I believe there was not suffici­ The DEPUTY SPEAKER-Order! ent time to determine whether or not The honourable member for Knox ap­ he was discussing poker machines pears to be determined to destroy the before members of the Opposition, traditions and the orderly conduct of quite llnnecess-arily, raised a point of this House. He is repeatedly refusing order. There is no point of order but to abide by directions and instructions I a,gain ask the honourable member for which have been given in this place Noble Park to restrict his remarks to on many occasions. The honourable the motion. member was not called on a point of Mr COLLINS (Noble Park)-The order, but he deliberately rose to his motion refers to providing adequate feet and aggravated a point which had safeguards for the protection of the been ruled on by the chair. Such be­ community. I wonder why it was con­ haviour will not be tolerated. The sidered necessary for a certain party honourable member for Knox is appar­ in a recent publication, to write -about ently anxious to turn this place into other matters, about which all honour­ something like a circus, but there is able members know, and make serious one place, in the Australian way of 3 December 1981] Tattersall Instant Lottery 4211 life, where orderly behaviour should be have a valuable privilege in their hands, observed, and I only thank the House and I am suggesting that they will that there are no more honourable have to think very carefully before members of the same calibre as the they turn against even the spirit of honourable member for Knox whose this debate. behaviour is utterly disorderly and dis­ I do not castigate the honourable gusting. member for Geelong North for bringing Mr COLLINS (Noble Park)-The fact the motion forward. He raised it as is that certain honourable members a correct motion, but the fact is I have been called upon to withdraw hope he will make sure that the Tatter­ certain words and they know they saIl's agents in his area recognize their have to withdraw them, but obviously clear responsibility to our community. that goes back to what I was stating I suggest to the Minister that, in any before about the Opposition being sen­ proposed legislation that is brought for­ sitive on this issue. Those honourable ward, consideration should be given to members do not have as much regard very severe penalties in terms of sus­ for this place as some of their col­ pension of the right to operate and with­ leagues. drawal of agency for those who contra­ The DEPUTY SPEAKER-The hon­ vene the law. That should happen auto­ ourable member for Noble Park should matically in relation to any important return to the motion before the chair. aspect of gambling activity. Mr COLLINS-The fact is that we Although the honourable member for have a situation where the Opposition Dandenong talked at length about safe­ has moved a motion which, implicit guarding the community, particularly in what it states, recognizes the need young persons, I wonder how strongly for legislation and clearly before that the Opposition feels about the issue. legislation is introduced, Her Majesty's I suggest that in drawing up any pro­ Government, Her Majesty's corner posed legislation the Government should party and Her Majesty's Opposition consider closely the concept of lucky would have the good sense to recognize envelopes. I may not refer to another the changes required to overcome any matter already before the House which problem in that area. I am suggesting deals with a similar subject and the to Her Majesty's Opposition that it machine aspect. In future all honour­ should remember that one day it may able members will have to think care­ be the Government and similar issues fully about going to their local sporting may arise, because some of the people organizations and school f~tes and to whom they are referring may be buying lottery tickets that are not legal­ affected. If the honourable member for ized, if they are in the company of Knox believes he is happy about the their sons and daughters or if other concept of the lobby which is taking young people are present. No doubt place, he may have to reason with the honourable members for Geelong that when the time comes and the real North, Knox and Footscray will be lead­ facts come out. ing the charge to close down the lucky The Government has stated, the envelope stands that can be seen National Party has agreed, and the throughout the community at any f~te Opposition clearly is going to endorse, on a Saturday afternoon. that steps will be taken to make sure The law is there to protect those who, that the powers will be with the for a variety of reasons, cannot protect Government. Tattersall's, and more themselves, and that includes minors. importantly, every Tattersall's agent The community sets its own standards will be aware, especially after the in fund-raising activities. I shall be pUblicity that has been given to it, trying to persuade members of the com­ that no young person in this State munity to spend the money that they shall be able to take part in any form could spend on thes·e Tattersall's tickets of gambling until he or she reaches on sporting clubs and charities. That the age of consent. Tattersall's agents money should not be put into the coffers 4212 Tattersall Consultations (Amendment) Bill [ASSEMBLY of gambling organizations or even the TATTERSALL CONSULTATIONS State Government. The money should (AMENDMENT) BILL go to the sporting clubs and charities Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ and we will go into competition and see surer), by leave, moved for leave to who ends up with the money. bring in a Bill to amend the Tatter­ The House divided on the motion (Mr saIl Consultations Act 1958 with respect A. T. Evans in the chair). to the sale of tickets to minors and for other purposes. Ayes .. 29 The motion was agreed to. Noes .. 45 The Bill was brought in and read a Majority against the first time. motion 16 EMPLOYMENT AND TRAINING AYES (PAY-ROLL TAX REBATE) BILL Mr Cain Mr Miller The ACTING SPEAKER (Mr Mac- Miss Callister Mr Remington kinnon) announced the presentation of Mr Cathie Mr Rowe Dr Coghill Mr Sidiropoulos a message from His Excellency the Mr Crabb Mr Simmonds Governor recommending that an Mr Culpin Mr Simpson appropriation be made from the Con­ Mr Edmunds Mr Spyker Mr Fogarty Mr Stirling solidated Fund for the purposes of the Mr Fordham 'Mrs Toner Employment and Training (Pay-roll Tax Mr Gavin Mr Trezise Rebate) Bill. Mr Ginifer Dr Vaughan Mr Hockley Mr Wilton Mr THOMPSON (Premier and Trea­ Mr Jolly Tellers: surer), pursuant to Standing Order No. Mr King Mr Ernst 169, moved for leave to bring in a Bill Mr Kirkwood Mr Walsh to amend the Employment and Training Act 1981, to provide for a rebate on NOES pay-roll tax paid in respect of first­ Mr Austin Mr Mackinnon year apprentices and for other purposes. Mr Borthwick Mr Maclellan Mr Brown Mrs Patrick The motion was agreed to. Mr Burgin Mr Ramsay Mrs Chambers Mr Reynolds The Bill was brought in and read a Mr Coleman Mr Richardson Mr Collins Mr Ross-Edwards first time. Mr Cox Mrs Sibree Mr Crellin Mr Skeggs BUILDING INDUSTRY LONG Mr Dunstan Mr Smith Mr Ebery (South Barwon) SERVICE LEAVE (AMENDMENT) Mr Evans Mr Smith BILL (Gippsland East) (Warrnambool) Mr Hann Mr Tanner The debate (adjourned from Novem- Mr Hayes Mr Templeton ber 25) on the motion of Mr Ramsay Mr Jasper Mr Thornpson (Minister of Labour and Industry) for Mr Jona Mr Trewin the second reading of this Bill was Mr Kennett Mr Weideman Mr Lacy Mr Whiting resumed. Mr Lieben.nan Mr Williams Mr McCance Mr Wood Mr SIMMONDS (Reservoir)-The Mr McClure Opposition does not oppose this Bill. Mr McGrath Tellers: However, I remind the Minister of Mr McInnes Mr Birrell Mr McKellar Mr McArthur Labour and Industry of his depart­ ment's undertaking some six weeks PAIR ago to respond to representations by Mr Mathews Mr Dixon the Amalgamated Metal Workers and Shipwrights Union in respect of incor­ The sitting was suspended at 1 p.m. porating coverage in this legislation for until 2.4 p.m. metal workers in the building industry. 3 December 1981] Sale Station Relocation and Development Bill 4213

I understand that the Minister has not matters. My party is interested in yet responded to representations, but protecting the rights of the property the honourable gentleman will do so holders involved. in future. There are three proposals to de­ The motion was agreed to. velop the site; First, a well-known de­ veloper wants the area; secondly, the The Bill was read a second time, and whole site could be bulldozed and passed through its remaining stages. made into a public square; and thirdly, the council could develop the site as SALE STATION RELOCATION a council development. My party wants AND DEVELOPMENT BILL some safeguards for the seventeen pro­ perty holders, most of whom have a The debate (adjourned from Novem­ 77-year lease. Naturally if the buildings ber 26) on the motion of Mr Maclellan are knocked down and the site is con­ (Minister of Transport) for the second verted to a public square they would reading of this Bill was resumed. . have no rights. Therefore, compensa­ Mr GA VIN (Coburg)-The Opposition tion should be provided. It is surpris­ official1y does not oppose the Bill. How­ ing that this project should go ahead ever, there are some matters I wish to in this way. raise. It seems that this is a pet project The Minister of Transport has re­ of VicRail and, although the Opposition ceived a letter from seventeen lease­ is not critical of that, it is critical of holders and tenants of the land covered the way in which the Minister of Trans­ in the Bill which outlines a number port and the honourable member for of complaints regarding the project. Gippsland South neglected to inform The first complaint is that there has the seventeen people concerned .until been a complete lack of consultation after the event. Those people are not with the seventeen leaseholders and happy with their local member and tenants and that they knew nothing have indicated they will not vote for about the pro.iect until well and truly him at the next election. It is another after the Bill had been introduced. example of why the Government has They are extremely critical of the per­ a popularity of only 33 per cent or formance of the Minister of Transport 34 per cent. If that is translated to and their local representative, the hon­ Gippsland South, the honourable mem­ ourable member for Gippsland South. ber for Giposland South's term in Par­ liament is almost over. The honourable The second pOint I make-it is a member will lose his seat at the next strange point for a Labor MP to make election because he does not give a -is that the Opposition is concerned damn about seventeen property holders about the rights of the property in the electorate he represents. holders. Usually the Government is These property holders are not happy more concerned about property holders with the Minister of Transport either. than the Opposition. Last night's debate I would be haopy if the honourable on the Historic Buildings Bill demon­ gentleman would spell out the safe­ strated that it was the Government guards he will give those property that wanted to help the people who holders. bought buildings to demolish them, de­ velop them, or whatever, by entering Mr B. J. EV ANS (Gippsland East)­ into back-room deals. Last night the The Bill will facilitate the relocation Opposition said that was wrong and it of the Sale railway station. People still maintains that it is wrong. In this who live to the east of Sale have been case, the Opposition is trying to pro­ loking forward to this development, tect the rights of property holders. just as much as the resident of Sale. for a good many years. The unusual What the Government is doing in situation has existed where a train this Bill could be contrary to what the going beyond Sale to Baimsdale has Minister for Planning says on other had to wait until the engine is taken