COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE

Official Committee Hansard

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE

(Consideration of Estimates)

WEDNESDAY, 5 MARCH 1997

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA 1997 CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 5 MARCH

Department of The Prime Minister and Cabinet— Program A—Economic— Subprogram 1—Commercial ...... 130 Subprogram 2—Employment and training ...... 135 Subprogram 5—Program support ...... 142 Program B—Social and cultural—Subprogram 1—Land, heritage, environment and culture ...... 143 Program B—Social and cultural— Subprogram 2—Legal aid and human services ...... 151 Subprogram 3—Housing infrastructure and health ...... 162 Subprogram 5—Aboriginal Hostels Limited ...... 171 Program C—Strategic development and support— Subprogram 1—Strategic planning and policy ...... 172 Subprogram 3—Legal and RCGRMU ...... 173 Program D—Corporate services program—Subprogram 7—Evaluation and audit ...... 173 Wednesday, 5 March 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 129

SENATE Wednesday, 5 March 1997 FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE

Portfolios: Parliament; Prime Minister and Cabinet; Finance (including Administrative Services) Members: Senator Short (Chair), Senator Murray (Deputy Chair), Senators Heffernan, Mackay, Ray and Watson Participating members: Senators Abetz, Bishop, Bolkus, Brown, Bob Collins, Colston, Conroy, Cooney, Evans, Faulkner, Harradine, Lundy, Margetts, Neal, Ray, Reynolds, Schacht, Sherry and Tambling

The committee met at 8.04 p.m. Consideration resumed from 26 February. DEPARTMENT OF THE PRIME MINISTER AND CABINET Proposed expenditure, $1,715,000 (Document A). Proposed provision, $220,000 (Document B). In Attendance Senator Herron, Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission— Mr G. Rees, Deputy Chief Executive Officer Mr P. Schnierer, General Manager, Corporate Services Mr S. Hoffman, General Manager, Strategic Development and Support Mr J. Eldridge, General Manager, Social and Cultural Mr I. Myers, Acting General Manager, Economic Mr W. Miller, Director, Office of Evaluation and Audit Mr R. Alfredson, Assistant General Manager, Finance Mr C. Plowman, Assistant General Manager, Community Services and Health Mr B. Stacey, Assistant General Manager, Native Title Mr M. O’Ryan, Assistant General Manager, Employment, Education and Training Mr J. Ramsay, Assistant General Manager, Strategic Support Mr R. Goodrick, Assistant General Manager, Legal Ms K. Sculthorpe, Assistant General Manager, Strategic Planning and Policy Aboriginal Hostels Limited Mr K. Clarke, General Manager Mr K. Sharma, Company Secretary Mr R. Lane, Acting assistant General Manager, Operations

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Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies Mr R. Taylor, Principal Dr K. Palmer, Deputy Principal Mr B. Robinson, Director, Finance Department of Finance— Mr R. Hollis CHAIR—I declare open tonight’s hearing of the Senate Finance and Public Administration Committee in continuation of our additional estimates inquiry. I welcome you, Senator Herron, Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs, and officers from the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission. I propose to proceed by calling on the programs or subprograms as listed on the detailed program, although we will have some general questions to start off with. Before we get to questions, do you have any opening statement that you would like to make, Minister? Senator Herron—No, thank you, Mr Chairman. CHAIR—Let us move straight to questions of a general nature, and then we will get on to the program by program basis. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I have one general question. You would recall that I raised the matter of the document Dispelling the myths in question time last year and proposed that it would be a good idea, in terms of all of the misconceptions in the community, to update and reprint it. You accepted that proposal. Are you in a position to tell us where that is at? Senator Herron—Thank you for jogging my memory about that, because I thought it was a good suggestion. Do the officers know what we are talking about? Mr Rees—We have revised the text, and we would hope in the next four to six weeks to have a publication which we can put out which will be very similar to the one that appeared previously. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you very much. Senator ROBERT RAY—What would be the optimum circulation to have effect, do you think? Mr Hoffman—We propose to ensure that it has wide circulation to schools. We have an address list of something in the order of 25,000 or 26,000 people or organisations, schools, all parliamentarians—federal and state—and local government. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Mr Chairman, I am happy to start moving through the program now. CHAIR—We will move to Program A—Economic. Under that program, there are subprograms, components and subcomponents. For ease of the exercise, we will perhaps deal with it on a subprogram basis. So perhaps we can start with subprogram 1—Commercial. [8.08 p.m.] Program A—Economic Subprogram 1—Commercial Senator BOB COLLINS—I want to ask a number of questions in relation to the business development area. You would recall that I pursued this matter in the last estimates. I was ad- vised in those hearings that the commission was undertaking an organisational restructure to

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Wednesday, 5 March 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 131 accommodate the downsizing necessary as a result of the cut of $4.4 million in this area. I was advised in the October round that the economic division expected to begin this restructure within weeks of those hearings being completed. Has that restructuring been completed, and what has been the result of it? Mr Myers—We have concluded a restructuring within the division itself. That has called upon the merger of a number of sections to manage downsizing and running costs. In terms of the program implementation, what we have done during or since the last budget is to give cash allocation levels, certainly at a reduced level, out to the states. We have introduced flexibility for the states in terms of being able to use CEIS and business funding money in a more flexible manner, and we are managing the program now along those lines. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. I was also advised during those estimate hearings, and you just mentioned it, about CEIS. I am correct, am I not, in saying that that was actually an initiative that arose out of deaths in custody? Mr Myers—Yes, it was. Senator BOB COLLINS—You told me then that you were evaluating that program. Has that evaluation been completed? Mr Myers—No, it has not been completed. We would expect it would take some months to conclude a worthwhile evaluation of a program of that size. Senator BOB COLLINS—And that is what? A couple of months from now? Mr Myers—I would expect a couple of months now before it is completed. Senator BOB COLLINS—I understand that that scheme disbursed funds of just over $20 million on 136 projects last financial year. Take the question on notice, by all means, if you do not have the detailed information, but I would like to know how many projects you expect to fund in this financial year and at what cost. Mr Rees—We would need, obviously, to take that on notice, because we will need to get the information from each state as to projections. Senator BOB COLLINS—I would be happy for you to take that on notice, thank you. My advice is that 17 per cent of last year’s funding was provided to projects in the Northern Territory. Again, feel free to take this on notice. I would like the detail of those territory specific projects. Mr Myers—Certainly. We would need to take that on notice, but we will get that for you. Senator BOB COLLINS—Do you expect the Northern Territory to maintain that proportional level of funding? Mr Myers—Yes. We came up with a formula some time back based on population and level of previous demand; funding is based fairly much repetitively on that, so we expect the Northern Territory would get a similar share, both this year and in future years. Senator BOB COLLINS—Great. Thanks very much. Senator Herron—Do you expect an increase? Mr Myers—It will depend on performance. We do evaluate the performance by each state at the end of each year. So, if certain states are not using all their CEIS funds and there is greater demand in other states, we would certainly be looking at making adjustments in subsequent years.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. I am happy to go on to 1.1.3—industries strategies— if you wish, Mr Chairman. CHAIR—Yes, that is fine. Senator BOB COLLINS—Unless any other senator wants to jump in, I will keep going and you can pull me up if you need to. CHAIR—Do you have any questions at all, Senator Watson? Senator WATSON—No. CHAIR—I think the floor is yours for a while, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. I understand that ATSIC is currently developing comprehensive strategies for the long-term effective participation of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in the arts industry itself, the tourism industry and so on. I gather from the 1995-96 annual report that ATSIC aims to have the national industry strategies for those industries available for presentation to the government around the middle of this year. Is that still the target? Mr Myers—Yes, that is still our intention. The board at its last meeting approved the final drafts of those documents. We will now be taking them forward to ministers for consideration. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. So the drafts themselves are already done? Mr Myers—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. The industry strategies component of this program was abolished in the last budget. Has this affected the program at all? Mr Myers—The funds that were allocated for it were for two things, first, to develop the strategies and, second, to fund a number of pilot projects to test the draft strategies. We will complete the actual documentation side, so that part of it has been concluded. We always had a view that the pilot approach would only have a finite life on it. Certainly we no longer have funds for pilot projects, but we were not proposing to continue that indefinitely anyway. Senator BOB COLLINS—In terms of the work that has already been done on these strategies, does that include an estimate of the cost of actually putting the strategies into place? Mr Myers—The strategies themselves seek to do a number of things. They are largely aimed at trying to increase Aboriginal participation in the range of industries you have already identified. They seek to build upon existing programs in existing structures. The strategies are not predicated upon having new or additional funds for that purpose. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. One of those pilot projects that was funded last financial year was, I noted with some interest, a project to help to develop a bush tucker industry in central Australia. Have you received any report from the CLC on that project yet? Mr Myers—I personally do not know, Senator. I would need to check. Senator BOB COLLINS—Would you mind taking that inquiry on notice and getting back to me? I would be interested to know how it is going. The National Indigenous Arts Advocacy Association was working to complete the development and registration of a certified trademark which will be incorporated into a national label of authenticity for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultural products. Can you tell me where that is at? Mr Eldridge—I believe work is still ongoing on that particular project. I understand that some funding is provided under our art and culture program for that purpose.

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Senator Herron—If I can enlarge on that, I think there has been consultation with the Attorney-General’s Department on that. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thanks, Minister. I have questions to ask on land acquisition and maintenance. CHAIR—Just before you do, Senator Collins, given the number of people here, are there any areas that you are not going to deal with tonight so that people who may be here for those areas may be released? Senator BOB COLLINS—‘Please, release me, let me go—’ CHAIR—I had that in mind, too, actually. Senator BOB COLLINS—‘I don’t love you any more!’ Might I just say, though—no doubt to the relief of all here present—that I am perfectly minded to complete this exercise tonight. CHAIR—I understand that. But if there are any areas that you are not going to touch and for which there are officers here, then we may as well let them go. Senator BOB COLLINS—Perhaps if we could bat on for the next 30 minutes or so I will have a quick flick through in advance and see what questions I would be happy to put on notice. CHAIR—Thank you. Senator BOB COLLINS—On component 1.2, land acquisition and maintenance, I notice there are no variations in the estimates this year for the land acquisition and maintenance area but, for obvious reasons, I do want to ask a couple of questions. As I understand it, ATSIC’s involvement in this area ceases on 30 June this year. Is that correct? Mr Myers—That is correct. The program basically is fully taken up by the ILC at that stage. Senator BOB COLLINS—I understand that the divestment of ATSIC owned properties to community organisations is going to continue. Can you tell me how many are still owned at the moment and how many of those properties are expected to be divested to the communities? Mr Myers—I believe the figure is something in the order of 56 that we still own. Our desire is to divest all of them to community organisations, but that will take time, for a whole range of reasons, and we are looking at options for those that we cannot divest within the foreseeable future. Senator BOB COLLINS—But the intention is that, at the end of the day, they will all be divested? Mr Myers—Certainly. The commission’s intention is that they should all end up in indigenous hands. But, as I said, some of them will take considerable time and we may need to go back to the board with further options to consider on those particular ones. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. You can take this on notice. Can you give me a list only of those in the Northern Territory? Mr Myers—The ones the commission still owns? Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. I have some questions on component 1.3, industrial relations. I pursued this particular matter at the last estimates and did not get what I considered to be a proper response to the questions. I will re-ask the question. Given the government’s policy of self-empowerment, why was there no quarantining of the movement to an award

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 134 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 5 March 1997 wage program from the budget cuts, thus ensuring equity between indigenous and non- indigenous Australians in terms of salary and terms and conditions of employment? Mr Myers—Are you asking whether it should have been quarantined by government, as distinct from quarantined by ATSIC? Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes—quarantined by government. Mr Myers—Then I would have to refer that to the minister. It is a question of policy. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, as you know, the only quarantining was in relation to CDEP and the housing program. Those two areas were quarantined and the rest was left to ATSIC to determine what should be allocated. Senator BOB COLLINS—I wonder then if I could ask the ATSIC officers what impact the abolition of this scheme will have on moves to develop an increasing awareness of industrial relations and the introduction of greater equity and consistency in employment conditions across a whole range of indigenous employment? Mr Myers—Senator, I suppose the simple answer is that our grant conditions still require that employees of indigenous organisations are engaged under appropriate awards and that their rates of pay do reflect appropriate conditions. That is still a fundamental part of our funding base. Senator BOB COLLINS—The reason I asked the question is that my understanding and advice is that this program of ATSIC’s was actually administered with a significant degree of success. ATSIC, from what I have heard, did a very good job on this program. My understanding is that, since its inception, 12 significant awards have either been developed or modified, obviously to the benefit of the Aboriginal people employed by them. I think that is correct. Mr Myers—Certainly there have been quite a number of major awards that have been negotiated. Senator BOB COLLINS—Accepting that that is the case and that this program, which had that goal, actually produced a result which is identifiable, the point of the question is obvious. Now that the program is not there, I presume that that means that that same degree of success in advancing significantly the number of specific awards that do provide that degree of equity will now effectively cease, won’t it? I understand the point that you were making correctly before, that there is an expectation by ATSIC that these things will happen. Mr Myers—I think the point is, Senator, that most of the major employment groups are now covered by appropriate awards. If you look at the areas where, more recently, awards were being developed—such as media—that covers whole program segments of the commission’s activities. The only areas that are left are fairly minor in terms of overall expenditure and probably employment conditions, and it may be possible to provide some focus on those which does not necessarily entail program expenditure. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, I think it would be fair to say too that, if you are aware of any, where anything has occurred, we would be very interested so that we could take action if appropriate. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thanks, Minister. I will take you up on that.

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Subprogram 2—Employment and training Senator BOB COLLINS—I would like to ask a couple of questions on component 2.1— community development employment projects—which flow from the last estimates. It was con- firmed at the last hearings that the no-growth strategy that was adopted for CDEP would result in savings of around $8.6 million in full year costs because the projected expansions that were in the pipeline would not go ahead and 2,400 Aboriginal people who could reasonably have expected to join the scheme in 1996-97 and 1997-98 will, as a result, have to seek social security benefits or alternative employment. You would recall that you said at those hearings that you were receiving reports from New South Wales, the Northern Territory and Victoria, which were identified as those areas that were hardest hit by the proposal. Did you get those reports and is there now a clearer picture of the effect on those CDEP schemes? Mr Myers—Yes, there is. We did get comprehensive information in. The major area of impact was the reductions in support available from other programs. The commission is prepared to make available, by holding back a certain amount of funds, a sort of levy which will be used to try and assist those CDEPs which do run into problems because of their previ- ous dependency on other programs. Senator BOB COLLINS—At the same time you were also pursuing that component of those schemes that was involved in providing essential services. You were not able to provide me with that information then, but I was told there was an analysis being conducted of those CDEP schemes that were involved in the provision of essential services. Has that been com- pleted? Mr Myers—It is still under way. Senator BOB COLLINS—And likely to be completed when? Mr Myers—Apparently in another two months. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, so I see. I can read lips—a very useful skill, I have found, over the years! I have even learned a few things I would rather not have known. CHAIR—Is there nothing on component 2.2? We turn to 2.3. Senator BOB COLLINS—The community training component was abolished in the 1996- 97 budget. This is information I received at the last estimates: 5,185 people received some form of training, slightly more than half under 25 years of age, in 1995-96. As you would recall, I did pursue a series of questions on this at the last Senate estimates, about the number of people who would no longer have access to labour market programs as a result of the termination of the scheme. This information, I was told, was being sought from DEETYA. Is there any update on that information? Mr Myers—This would be the broader reforms to labour market programs, not the changes to ATSIC? Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. It required, I was told, some consultation with DEETYA. Mr Myers—We do have some figures but we do not have them here, so we will need to take it on notice. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is fine—if you would not mind taking that on notice for me, thank you. The reason I asked the question—this is local information—is that I am personally aware of at least 70 trainees that have actually had to go back onto welfare benefits as a result of these cutbacks in labour market programs, to their great distress and mine.

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The reason I raised that, Minister, is that recently you have been castigating the former government quite severely about a total failure to achieve anything whatsoever in 13 years. As you would recall, you have been holding up as an example of an extremely successful operation the Jawoyn Association—quite rightly, I might add—and giving it as an example of how things should be done in contrast to our total failure over 13 years of government. I was wondering, Minister, if you could tell me—this does relate, let me tell you, to this area— what essential elements you can identify of that acknowledged success of the Jawoyn Association that occurred between March last year and now? You would recall the interviews; there are at least 10 of them that I have transcripts of. At a recent television interview you said that there had been nothing done in the previous 13 years and they had been 13 years of complete failure. You understand the question. What I want to know is: what is it that has been responsible for the Jawoyn success story that has occurred since March last year? Senator Herron—Since March last year there has been the development of their next five- year program, which was announced—I was at that, of course. It has been developed in that time. Prior to that there were problems with the association, as you would know. I am not saying that all that occurred in the last 12 months— Senator BOB COLLINS—I thought that was what you were saying. Senator Herron—But I think there is a certain amount of— Senator BOB COLLINS—So it is the five-year plan really that has done it? Senator Herron—The previous five-year plan, yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—The one that you were at the launch of, which has occurred since March last year? Senator Herron—It was their second five-year plan, as you would know. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is right. Minister, I thought that the speech that Robert Lee delivered at that occasion, when you were present, was most impressive. Senator Herron—I thought it was very good, too. Senator BOB COLLINS—You listened to it? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—There must have been one bit of it that escaped you. I will read it out to you. I have the speech here. I am glad you raised the point. Senator Herron—There were a lot of speeches there. Senator BOB COLLINS—I will tell you, Minister, as somebody who publicly campaigned for the Jawoyn ownership of Katherine Gorge National Park when I was then opposition leader in the territory and it was not the most popular of causes to go out and embrace, and who embraced it knowing full well the simple truth behind the success of the Jawoyn—they deserve every plaudit they get—that I was impressed by Robert Lee’s speech. But, as I say, there was one bit that you clearly, obviously, slid through or had a freudian block on. It is these two paragraphs, and I could not say it better than this myself. Robert Lee said on that occasion, with you present, and in fact I am sure the reason he said it was that you were there— Senator Herron—Shane Stone was there too. Senator BOB COLLINS—It would be lost on him. Robert Lee would have just been another ‘whingeing black’ as far as Shane Stone was concerned. Let me read it out to you.

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Senator Herron—I was merely making the point that I was there as one of many. There were a couple of hundred there. Senator BOB COLLINS—Let me read out to you, Minister— Senator WATSON—You should withdraw that. Senator BOB COLLINS—Withdraw what? Senator WATSON—Aspersions on members of another House. CHAIR—I think you have cast an aspersion on a member of another House. Senator BOB COLLINS—Mr Chairman, with the greatest respect, the words that I have just quoted from Shane Stone were uttered by him, to his total disgrace, on national television. And, I might add, they were uttered at the meeting—the reconciliation meeting as it was supposed to be—to try to resolve native title. It was an extremely helpful comment to make! So I am not casting aspersions on him at all; I am simply stating what is a matter of fact. The Chief Minister of the Northern Territory referred to Aboriginal people generally as whingeing blacks. In fact, the exact quote was, in respect of Galarrwuy Yunupingu, ‘He is just another’— another!—‘whingeing black,’ in other words, like all the rest of ‘them’. I am not casting aspersions; I am just repeating what he said on national television. It was in all the papers, Mr Chairman. CHAIR—I think we need to be careful that we do not reflect on members of— Senator BOB COLLINS—Oh, perish the thought! CHAIR—I am sure you are aware of the protocol. Senator BOB COLLINS—I am. CHAIR—Okay. Off you go. Senator BOB COLLINS—I have made no reflection on Shane Stone. I have accurately repeated what he said. Let me repeat what Robert Lee said to you, Minister, and Shane Stone, on that occasion—and it is the truth. He said this: But there is a simple truth behind why we succeeded: we have our land back under the Land Rights Act, and we have used our lands to invest in the future—a future that will benefit all the people of this region, not just the Jawoyn. Without getting our traditional lands back, we couldn’t negotiate with anyone—and without the chance to negotiate and build links with government and business, we would still be stuck in the hopelessness of welfare dependency. There is no way I could say it better than Robert Lee said it, Minister. The whole cornerstone of the success of the Jawoyn, which you rightly have given much publicity to recently, was the fact that they got ownership of their land. Everything else flowed from that. And that has not happened since March last year. But, to my regret, the association— Senator WATSON—What is the point? Senator BOB COLLINS—I will tell you the point if you want. Can I say, Senator, with the greatest respect, that if you do want to participate in these hearings you can actually ask questions. You do know that, don’t you? Senator WATSON—We are not making second reading speeches. Senator BOB COLLINS—Well, I am. You can do what you like. CHAIR—Senator Collins—

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Mr Chairman, if I could just get on with actually asking the question— CHAIR—If you could ask the question that would be helpful. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, you have been giving much publicity to the success of the Jawoyn. Are you aware that the 70 trainees that got the boot— Senator WATSON—We have received these speeches all night. Senator BOB COLLINS—If the squeaks would like to just stop for a minute—Senator Watson, will you let me complete the question, please? CHAIR—Ask the question, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—It is relevant to this section, Chairman. The 70 trainees relevant to this section of the appropriations, Senator Watson, who have just been booted out of their traineeships and are now back on welfare, were all employed by the Jawoyn Association. Are you aware of that, Minister? Senator Herron—We will check that out for you. Senator BOB COLLINS—You are not aware of it? Senator Herron—I said that we will check it out. That is an assertion that you have made and we will check it out. Senator BOB COLLINS—Like all of the others it is accurate. Senator Herron—I will check it with the Jawoyn Association. Senator BOB COLLINS—I have found it extremely fascinating that the latest— Senator Herron—I find, Senator Collins, that I need to check certain statements. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, what I find with you is that you just love picking up toys and playing with them for a week at a time. Gatjil was one, the Jawoyn Association is the latest, and before you throw the toy back in the sandpit I just wanted to let you know that this association, which indeed has been successful, principally because of its ownership of land, has just suffered a significant reverse in this particular program as a result of the budget cuts of your government. Are you aware that, as a direct result of the termination of the programs that I have just referred to, 47 trainers—that is, the professionals that were actually employed to teach the trainees—have been lost in the Katherine region alone? Senator Herron—I will check that statement for you and let you know. Senator BOB COLLINS—Let me know what? Senator Herron—You have made that assertion. I will check whether it is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. Minister, if the assertion is correct, what do you intend to do about it? Senator Herron—I will check the assertion first and then do whatever is necessary. But I am not pre-empting something that you have said has occurred. I will find out from the Jawoyn Association— Senator BOB COLLINS—When you say you will do whatever— Senator Herron—I will ask the Jawoyn Association what they have done. Senator BOB COLLINS—But you then said you would do whatever is necessary. What does that mean?

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Senator Herron—I will find out the facts first. You cannot pre-empt a hypothetical, Senator Collins. Even you know that. Senator BOB COLLINS—Do ATSIC officers have any information available now in respect of the number of trainers that have actually been lost in the Katherine region? Mr Myers—I was just discussing with my colleague, I am not sure that they would be trainers who were engaged under our programs. They may well have been engaged under DEETYA programs and we would have to— Senator BOB COLLINS—Take it on notice. Mr Myers—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—I was also advised earlier—this is in the last Senate estimates so I assume this is correct, Minister—that the cessation of this scheme would also result in an estimated 35 media trainees losing their jobs. Do you know if that has occurred? Mr Eldridge—We are still in the process, of course, of winding down a community and youth support program and the impact of the community training program’s termination and are still in the process of collecting data. So I cannot confirm any numbers in that respect. They were estimates given at the time and they are still the best we have got. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. I will continue to pursue it, and you understand my interest in working out at the end of the day how many people actually bit the dust in respect of these changes. I was also advised, and this is in the same area, that there could be job losses among the 83 broadcasting from remote Aboriginal communities—the BRACS program—but no definitive number could be given on that either. I assume that that has not been determined either. The reason I ask the question again, if I could just advise you, Minister, is that I think one of the really positive advances that has been made in respect of giving Aboriginal people their own voice has been the boost in these radio programs and the enthusiasm with which local communities have embraced it. I might mention the extraordinary enthusiasm of the young media trainees that I have actually seen on the ground and spoken to. It would be a significant reverse in my view if this was now going to go backwards, as it seems to be. At the end of the day I simply indicate to you that I am interested in getting an outcome, final, of all of the job losses, traineeships and so on that have been lost in the whole broadcasting area. Senator Herron—One of the interesting things you might not be aware of, Senator Collins, is that there has been no evaluation done of the penetration of the radio broadcasts. I agree with you about the enthusiasm and the application of the trainees, but there has been no evaluation done of the outcome of the broadcasting. Senator BOB COLLINS—That may well be the case, Minister. I have to say, and I make no apologies for it, that my assessment of the program—obviously only one small part of it— has been from my own extensive and continuing involvement in Aboriginal communities, and the number of people who, I know, listen enthusiastically. In fact, they wait for the programs to begin so they can hear them in their own language. I have actually been in the studios, if you can call them that. It is all smell of an oil rag stuff in Aboriginal communities right across the Top End of the Northern Territory. That is how I base my assessment. CHAIR—Is an assessment being made at the moment? Senator Herron—Yes, it is being looked at in some communities. That is why I thought I would mention it.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Again, we pursued this question in the last estimates and I am continuing to follow this up to check whether there are any updates on it. It is the same question in relation to arts and crafts organisations. Arts and crafts organisations employed a lot of trainees. Has there been any estimate of how many job losses there have been in the arts and crafts industry? If that is an ongoing process, I would like to know that, too. Mr Eldridge—As I said, we do have an exercise under way, as we indicated late last year. Senator BOB COLLINS—So ATSIC is continuing to track this? Mr Eldridge—Yes. We will provide the information as soon as it becomes available. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is fine. As long as it is being done I am happy. The inwork program again was a response to the royal commission and was one of several young people’s programs aimed at reducing the likelihood of young Aboriginal people coming into contact with the criminal justice system. I think I am correct in that, am I not? Mr Eldridge—Yes, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—The same story again, and take it on notice by all means. I want to know what the negative impacts on that program have been. Mr Rees—That program does not actually finish until the end of this financial year, so I would not expect any impacts. And the impacts will be fairly obvious because there is a given number of young trainees on the program at the moment of about 360. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is fine, you could just give me an update on all that. All of these decisions collectively mean in effect that, with the exception of CDEP, ATSIC basically has no labour market programs? Mr Myers—That is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—Does ATSIC have any estimate of the number of young Aboriginal job seekers who are expected to come onto the labour market in the next year or so? Mr Myers—We have had studies done which indicate the increase in the indigenous population, the ageing of the indigenous population, so we certainly do have projections. If my memory is correct, we are talking about 9,000 joining the work force each year. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, the former Chair of ATSIC, Lois O’Donoghue, said in the 1995-96 annual report of ATSIC: These outcomes— that is, the ones we have just talked about— sit ill with the enduring need to address the underlying causes of indigenous disadvantage that was so forcefully recognised by the royal commission. Do you agree with that statement? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—You do? It is a great way to disarm an opposition, to throw your hands up and tell the truth. Senator Herron—If you want an answer, I do. Senator BOB COLLINS—You agree? Senator Herron—I agree, yes.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—So you agree with Ms O’Donoghue that the budget decisions that were taken in the last budget were— Senator Herron—No. Here you go again. I am being very placid and quiet and my usual self— Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, that is not the only thing you have been. Senator Herron—Do not try and put words in my mouth that are not there. Senator BOB COLLINS—Heaven forbid, Minister. Senator Herron—I answered you truthfully to a statement that the former chairman of ATSIC made and that was it, full stop. Now you are saying that I agree with something. Do not extrapolate or put any imputation onto a yes to a simple statement. If you wish to extrapolate, ask another question and I will say no. Senator BOB COLLINS—Will you? Senator Herron—If it is something that I disagree with. Senator BOB COLLINS—So I can just phrase the question, and you will say no? Senator Herron—If it is something that I disagree with. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is a really intelligent approach. Senator Herron—It is. If you want an answer— Senator BOB COLLINS—With respect, I have sat here in silence and been lectured to for five minutes with great patience. CHAIR—I do not think you have. Senator Herron—I said yes to that previous statement. Senator BOB COLLINS—Correct. Senator Herron—Now your interpretation from then on is yours, not mine. Senator BOB COLLINS—I wonder if I could just repeat the question now that he has finished. Feel free to jump in and ask a question, Senator Watson, rather than just sit there and squeak all night. Senator WATSON—I am listening to every word you say. Senator BOB COLLINS—Okay, fine. So you agree with that statement? You have said yes. Senator Herron—Lois O’Donoghue’s statement? Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. Are you aware, Minister, that the statement—and it is a very strong statement—is a very direct and very severe criticism of your government, that you have just agreed with, and in fact— Senator Herron—No. Senator Bob Collins—You do not agree? Senator Herron—I do not agree with your interpretation that you have just put, because it is quite clear that this government is spending much more in the next four years than your government spent in that previous time. That statement was made without knowledge of what was going to occur in the future.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—So you disagree with the statement? Senator Herron—I agree with her statement at the time that she made it because it was based on inadequate knowledge. Do you not follow that? Is that too difficult for you? Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, it is too profoundly stupid. Senator Herron—That is your problem. Senator, if you do not have the wit to understand that, then I am sorry for you. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, do you know what year this is? Senator Herron—I do know what I said and, if you read the Hansard, as you have done on previous occasions, Senator Collins, you have disagreed with yourself on previous occasions in the same statement. It is on the record of Hansard in the Senate and I will produce it if you like. As I say, do not try and extrapolate interpretations on an answer that I have given—one three-letter answer. Senator BOB COLLINS—Are you aware that the statement I have just given was contained in the 1995-96 annual report; the most recent annual report of ATSIC? Senator Herron—Yes. That is what you said. Senator BOB COLLINS—And you agree with the statement? Senator Herron—Yes. CHAIR—There are no funding requirements or questions for subprograms 3 and 4. Subprogram 5—Program support Senator BOB COLLINS—This program, as I understand it, funds the Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research; is that correct? Mr Myers—That is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—Are there any officers at the table who are aware of a recent report issued by that centre on the possible outcomes of CDEP for the 1996-97 budget? Mr Myers—CAEPR have undertaken a number of studies, one of which looks at the prospects of Aboriginal employment in future years, factoring in a number of things, including the non-growth of CDEP. Senator BOB COLLINS—I saw some people nodding behind you there. Could the officer come forward and advise the committee of the fundamentals of that analysis. Mr O’Ryan—The Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research estimates that the indigenous work force is increasing at 8,000 to 9,000 people a year. They have estimated that, as a result of the cessation of CDEP expansion, the indigenous unemployment rate is likely to increase from 38 per cent to a worst-case scenario of about 43 per cent. Even in a best-case scenario, it is something above 40 per cent. They estimate that about 2,000 jobs need to be created each year to maintain their current indigenous unemployment rate of 38 per cent. Senator BOB COLLINS—The simplest thing to do would be for me to get hold of the report. Is it a public document? Mr O’Ryan—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is it possible for you to provide the committee with a copy of it? Mr O’Ryan—Yes, it is.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. If you could just let us have a copy of that I will not put these further detailed questions. The detail of how many jobs are being created is obviously contained in that analysis. Is that correct? Mr O’Ryan—That is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—How many does it fall short of the 2,000? Mr O’Ryan—Significantly. CDEP created most new jobs for indigenous people in the period from 1986 to 1994. Senator BOB COLLINS—So work for the dole, basically. With the government support for work for the dole, we could perhaps see a boost to these programs at some future time. Rather than pursue the detail of this, I will wait for the report. I would like to move to program B, social and cultural. CHAIR—So you have finished with program A. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. Program B—Social and cultural Subprogram 1—Land, heritage, environment and culture Senator BOB COLLINS—ATSIC’s annual report points to a number of issues that will require examination or resolution this year. One of them that has some significance to the Northern Territory concerns the sunset clause precluding the hearing of land claims lodged after 5 June 1997. How the years have flown! The annual report says that ATSIC is preparing a position paper in consultation with the key stakeholders, regarding the need to retain or to remove this clause from the act. A number of land councils have already expressed the view that the clause should be removed from the act. Has that position paper been completed? Mr Eldridge—No, it has not as yet been completed, discussions are still under way. It is a matter that will then need to be discussed with the minister and the government. Senator BOB COLLINS—Obviously, there is a deadline. Mr Eldridge—There is certainly a deadline and, as you said, it comes upon us at a rapid pace. Senator BOB COLLINS—Have you any idea how soon it will be done? Mr Eldridge—A range of issues associated with the Northern Territory Land Rights Act need to be addressed in the short term. It is possible that those issues will be combined and considered in a review process. We are looking at that option at the moment and it will be pursued in the short term. As far as the question of the sunset clause is concerned, land councils have already made representations about it and have done so for some time. But, as yet, the issue has not been the subject of a decision by either the minister or the government. Senator BOB COLLINS—Considering that it is March, and the deadline is 5 June, when is this process likely to be completed? Mr Eldridge—There are two options. The first is that it goes forward as a separate issue for consideration by the minister. The second is that it becomes subsumed in a wider review that addresses other issues that we need to address in the short term and then it will be reported upon to the minister. The first option is a short-term option. The second option is one that will take some time. We are probably looking at six months, at the least.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Are these options currently under consideration by the ATSIC board? Is it ATSIC management that will determine which of these options is pursued or the government? Mr Eldridge—Ultimately, it will be a matter for the minister to determine. Senator BOB COLLINS—That was what I assumed was the case. Minister, over to you, can you advise me? Senator Herron—I was under the impression that I would be making a determination. I was awaiting that report. I was interested to hear that response because it has been discussed but that is as far as it has got. What Mr Eldridge said is as correct as I understand it. I know no more than he. Senator BOB COLLINS—When will the minister be receiving the report? Mr Eldridge—The minister is due to receive a brief shortly that will address the issues that I just discussed. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is this going to be in the short term? Mr Eldridge—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Let me move on to 1.1.3, heritage protection. How many applications are currently on file for heritage protection? Mr Eldridge—I do not have the information with me, but I will provide it to you. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Can anyone confirm that ATSIC has established a register of persons to undertake section 10 reporting and mediation under the Heritage Protection Act? Mr Eldridge—That is correct, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—Where is that process at? Mr Eldridge—We have a register of persons that are considered suitable for undertaking the reporting function. That list is made available to the minister as the need arises. Senator BOB COLLINS—I have a number of questions that I wish to ask that relate to this division of heritage protection, but there is a crossover—as there often is—possibly with the legal section of ATSIC, so I will just ask the questions at this point—the questions relate to the Hindmarsh Island bridge—in terms of the section 10 reports. In respect of the recent vote in the Senate on the bill which would have precluded the operations of the Heritage Protection Act in respect of this one area and the need for the minister to prepare a report, I have not had time to track down the statements which I understand have been made today, but I think the Chapmans have publicly indicated today their intention to seek judicial intervention in requiring the minister to initiate a report flowing from that vote of the Senate into the Hindmarsh Island bridge. Is that correct? Senator Herron—Perhaps I can answer that. One of your colleagues told me that was so during the last division and that it is on the AAP wire. Senator BOB COLLINS—I dare say your source of information, Minister, is probably the same as mine. I was told second-hand, also. Senator Herron—I have not been notified officially of anything. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, has action been initiated following the Senate vote to commission such a report?

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Senator Herron—I have not, no. Senator BOB COLLINS—Why not, considering the concern about delays? Senator Herron—Because we were sending the bill back, as I said, and it was going to come back to the Senate. Our intention is to re-present it to the Senate. Senator BOB COLLINS—When? Senator Herron—In the normal processes that occur. Senator BOB COLLINS—But, Minister, that is what I am asking you. You must have sought advice from the manager of government business—it is your legislation. What I want to know is, because it is an important question for heritage protection— Senator Herron—It has gone off to them to make a decision. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, what is your advice from the Manager of Government Business in the Senate as to when it is likely to be— Senator Herron—I have not been advised. I have left it to the manager of government business to decide. Senator BOB COLLINS—I am not a lawyer, as I keep on saying—and my legal opinions are therefore worthless so I can expound on them to my heart’s content—but I would have thought that any parties, that is developers, that are aggrieved by delays would find that answer of yours to be grossly unsatisfactory. As I say, I am not a legal expert, but my knowledge of administrative law, which is fairly extensive, indicates that courts, whilst they do not seek to go behind decisions taken by ministers normally, are certainly rightly happy to rap ministers over the knuckles for being tardy in discharging their obligations under acts of parliament. They do not generally have regard to what may or may not happen in parliament at some future time as a result. I dare say you have got legal advice that is probably better than that, but as a result of the current situation, and not being able to anticipate, as people probably cannot, what may or may not happen in the Senate when the bill may or may not appear before the Senate, do you not accept that you have some legal obligation under the act to commission a report? I dare say you have got legal advice that is probably better than that. But, as a result of the current situation and not being able to anticipate—as people probably cannot—what may or may not happen in the Senate, when the bill may or may not appear before the Senate, don’t you accept that you have actually got some legal obligation under the act to commission a report? Senator Herron—No, I do not, until a court determines that. That is what I understand has occurred today—an approach has been made to the court. There was no legal obligation— Senator BOB COLLINS—You do not consider yourself under any obligation, as a result of the Senate vote, to commission a report under the act into the application that is currently on foot? That is, in fact, what you have just said, so I assume— Senator Herron—No. Senator BOB COLLINS—You do not? Senator Herron—That is as I understand it, but I will seek advice. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, is that, in fact, the tenor of the advice that you have received, that you have no legal obligation under the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act—this is what you have just told the Senate committee—in respect of

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 146 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 5 March 1997 the application which is currently on foot to commission a report? You can simply take a punt and wait and see what might happen in the Senate at some future time. In the meantime, everyone just sits around and waits. Senator Herron—The legal advice is ‘within a reasonable time’. It is my determination what a reasonable time is. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, it is not at the end of the day, with respect. Senator Herron—Unless I am ordered to otherwise. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, can I just say that I learnt very early in my career that the discretion of ministers is, in fact, not absolute. Senator Herron—I have never thought that. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, that’s fine. Then we get back to you. You have identified yourself, quite rightly, as at least the initial hurdle in this. In respect of the application which has been on foot and, I might add, in the headlines for some time—it is still a matter in the headlines today—as minister, what do you consider to be a reasonable time before you initiate such a report? If I had wanted to ask the officer what he thought was a reasonable time, I would have asked him. CHAIR—Hang on. You have asked the minister. Senator BOB COLLINS—The minister said he is the one who does it. I am as reasonable a person as you can find. I have been very unhappy about the answers that I have received here tonight. Senator Herron—Are you reading our lips? Senator BOB COLLINS—No. Oh God, no. Senator Herron—My understanding was—I was checking with my adviser here because, like you, I am not a lawyer—that, to a certain degree, it is not defined; that, as I said to you previously— Senator BOB COLLINS—That is correct. Minister, that is why the buck stops right there, not with the officer. Senator Herron—Tell me. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, under the act— Senator Herron—Senator Collins, the buck stops there, with respect, because it is your party. My old mate Stephen Loosley said three days ago that it is about time your party woke up to itself. Senator BOB COLLINS—Stephen Loosley was never your old mate, Senator. Senator Herron—Yes, he was. You would be surprised at what mates I have, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—Nothing that you do or say surprises me, Minister. Senator Herron—He said it in a column three days ago. Far be it for you, Senator Collins, to start talking about anything that I may or may not do as minister over Hindmarsh Island. If anything has occurred so that there is a millstone around your party’s neck, it is that particular decision, as former Senator Loosley said three days ago. Former Senator Graham Richardson said it also. I will have pleasure in reminding you of it every opportunity I get. Senator BOB COLLINS—You have got a very low pleasure threshold then, Minister.

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Senator Herron—I am easily pleased. Senator BOB COLLINS—It has no effect on me whatsoever. Senator Herron—I am easily pleased. CHAIR—I am not, at five past nine. Could we have some questions? Senator BOB COLLINS—Mr Chairman, when the minister finishes his rambling— Senator Herron—I am not rambling at all. Senator BOB COLLINS—Perhaps you should see a specialist, Minister. CHAIR—Come on! Senator BOB COLLINS—With great regard, Minister, to the correct advice of the officer on your right, no, it is not defined. Minister, do you accept that, under the act, you are in fact the person in respect of this matter who will decide in the first instance? Senator Herron—It is the court—as I said to you before—that will decide, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, with respect, that is wrong. Minister, you do not have very many pieces of legislation to administer—not very many; only a couple. In respect of this one, do you accept that, in the first instance—can you just listen to what I am saying? Senator Herron—It is the first time you have said ‘the first instance’, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—The Hansard record will show that I just said it a minute ago. In the first instance, Minister, do you accept that the decision maker, in respect of initiating this report under the act, is you? Senator Herron—Both in the first instance and ultimately. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Therefore, Minister, I repeat the question: considering the fact that you—unfettered in the first instance—are the person who determines what a reasonable time is, what do you as the decision maker consider to be a reasonable time? Senator Herron—That is a hypothetical question, because action has been taken in the court today to limit that time. As I said to you before, I will go on repeating myself. You can ask the question as much as you like, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, you were in a position to make that court action— Senator Herron—No longer, because action has been taken in the court today to force my hand, as I understand it. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is that a fact? I sought that information a little while ago. Have legal proceedings commenced? Senator Herron—Being without legal training—like yourself—that is probably pre-empting what a court decision might be. Who knows what the court will decide. They will make a decision over the next few days. Senator BOB COLLINS—Let us go back to taws: can anybody advise me—somebody from ATSIC should be able to—whether legal proceedings have commenced? Mr Eldridge—I understand that the lawyers representing the Chapmans have sought an order by the court requiring the minister to appoint a reporter. I believe the case is likely to come up early next week. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. Senator Herron—But a decision has to be made by the court. That is the application.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, can I reassure you that the person who in the first instance determines what a reasonable time is under the act is you. If you are saying—and I think it is a horrific proposition that you are putting to this committee—that, so far as you are concerned, your attitude towards applications under this act is that you will simply wait until legal action is taken to force you to make a report, then we are in for a fairly rough time in this portfolio. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, I usually take your interpretations with a grain of salt. Senator BOB COLLINS—What you have said tonight does not make any less sense than anything else you have said, I suppose. So the court action is on foot, and I dare say you will hear from somebody who can actually make a decision—that is, a judge—as to whether you will commission a report or not. In respect of the report itself, you are on the record saying on many occasions in the Senate—and I do not dispute the accuracy of this—that the full cost of this process will be one that is borne by ATSIC, from the ATSIC budget. Is that correct? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. In respect of the minimum proper requirements to commission such a report under the act, given that the previous history of this matter is known and just about every side of this argument has already been canvassed in oral and written submissions and presuming that ATSIC would properly have taken advice on what was required to discharge the obligations under the act, has ATSIC determined—in broad terms— what it is likely to cost for this report to be done? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—I gave the chair of ATSIC prior notice that I would ask this question and asked him to advise the officers. That is just one of the many things you do at funerals. Senator Herron—I have been checking, Senator Collins. I did remember it. You will be very interested to know the answer, which is that it will clearly lie between $35,000 and a million dollars. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. If I had a tender like that, I would take the low one, Minister. Senator Herron—It depends on the quality of the tenders. You probably would, Senator Collins, but I would not. Senator BOB COLLINS—I think it is a fair bet, Minister, that I would do very few things you would do. Senator Herron—Not necessarily. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister or officers, considering that the ambit of this potential cost is between $35,000 and $1 million, the officers of ATSIC, of course, are well aware of the debate on this and are well aware that it has sometimes been colloquially referred to as ‘cheap and nasty’, although not by me, ever; nor, I might add, by people who are acknowledged authorities in this areas, such as Frank Brennan. It is necessary, of course, to carry this out in a way which satisfies the requirements of the act. But that of course, Minister, is all that needs to be done, considering the history of this. That being so, I would just like some further information from ATSIC officers, considering the ambit of that response: $35,000 to $1 million. Has ATSIC received advice—from your legal department, since ATSIC

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Wednesday, 5 March 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 149 obviously has recourse to its own legal advisers—that, in terms of satisfying the requirements of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act, a report could be completed that would satisfy that act, in the ambit of $35,000, $40,000 or $50,000? Mr Eldridge—Not to my knowledge, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—But where does the figure come from? Mr Eldridge—Where does the $35,000 come from? Senator BOB COLLINS—It has got to come from somewhere. Mr Eldridge—It comes from our experience to date with the administration of the act, Senator. Basically, the Mathews report is an exception to the rule. Indeed, our experience with all the reports that have been produced to date, with the exception of that one, is that costs have been less than $100,000 in each case. In the case of the Hindmarsh Island bridge application, of course, there is such a wealth of material and such an enormous amount of contention with the issue that it would be reasonable to assume that, even setting out solely to satisfy the requirements of the act, you would be looking certainly at a significant cost; so it would be at the top end of the $100,000 range, I would think, at the very least. Senator BOB COLLINS—Considering the fact that ATSIC’s own experience would indicate that—and, in fact, your words are self-explanatory—in respect of this application, which of course is the one I am asking the questions about, a figure of $100,000 could be reasonably expected to be how much it would cost. I might add that that is somewhere in the ballpark of where I think it would come out, too. So why was the figure of $35,000 quoted by the minister? It is in fact one-third of that. Mr Eldridge—I think, Senator, I need to clarify that what I am talking about are minimums. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. Mr Eldridge—But there is a whole host of variables involved. Senator BOB COLLINS—You just said you did not expect to get out of it for less than $100,000. Mr Eldridge—That is right. Senator BOB COLLINS—Correct. And now I am asking why the minister suggested that you could get out of it for $35,000. Senator Herron—No; you asked what the estimate was, in your prepared question to ATSIC, and I read out the answer from the officers of ATSIC. That is the figure that I was given. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I know. I am pursuing now—I am sure the officer realises— Senator Herron—Having seen the Mathews report—and I am the only one that has, as you know, because I was restricted by— Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, can I just go back to the question? It is simple enough. I actually had the courtesy to give the chair of ATSIC prior notice that I wanted to ask this question—telegraphing my punches—because I actually wanted the answer. I will ask the question again. Considering that you have just said that you consider $100,000 to be the minimum required because of the peculiarities of this case, why then has the figure of $35,000 been quoted as the minimum?

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Mr Eldridge—Senator, I think only I can answer that as we provided the figures. The advice that we provided was illustrative of the fact that the cost will be dependent on a range of variables, not the least of which is who you appoint to undertake the exercise— Senator BOB COLLINS—Absolutely. Mr Eldridge—And what administrative support is provided in that process. By saying anything from $35,000 to $1 million, we are simply identifying the range of costs that we have experienced in the administration of the act to date. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. I will not press this any further. Senator Herron—With respect, Senator Collins, the last sentence that Mr Eldridge said might be the answer—that that has been the range that it has cost to date with various reviews. Senator BOB COLLINS—Do you mean $35,000 to $1 million? Senator Herron—Yes. The Mathews report cost about that. Senator BOB COLLINS—Can you advise the committee factually of what is required in terms of the minimum under the act? Do you know what I am talking about? I am not talking about going to full singing, dancing public hearings all around Australia, et cetera. In terms of the advice that ATSIC has as to what needs to be done to properly satisfy the requirements of the act, what needs to be done, leaving aside the costs? What are the processes that you have to go through? Mr Eldridge—Fundamentally, Senator, following the appointment of a reporter, there is a requirement that a notification be published detailing the application and various other pieces of information in relation to the area that is the subject of the application and to call for submissions from interested parties. Those submissions are then analysed by the reporter who, in turn, prepares a report for the minister. There has been a succession of litigation, as you know, over the last few years, particularly in relation to Hindmarsh Island, that has led to a whole range of rulings which result in making the process a fairly complex one—for example, rulings requiring that all interested parties have access to all submissions by all other interested parties and so on. That has a tendency to complicate the process and also to increase the costs of the process. But, in short, the reporter would merely be required to give a reasonable period for the submissions by interested parties and then require a reasonable period in which he or she could consider those submissions and formulate a report to the minister. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Is it legally necessary to, in fact, have public hearings? Mr Eldridge—No, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—That was my understanding as well. Again, in terms of a reasonable person’s interpretation, and I know you are, what estimate has ATSIC put on what you think would be a reasonable time in which to complete this exercise while satisfying the act? Mr Eldridge—I am not sure that we have actually put a figure on the time. Senator BOB COLLINS—But surely that is relevant to the cost. Mr Eldridge—It certainly is. Off the top of my head, I would hazard a guess that you would be talking something in the vicinity of at least two months minimum.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—The Evatt report, of course, was the review of the act. Minister, when do you expect to be in a position to announce the government’s response? While the minister is finding that out, has ATSIC provided the government with advice on the Evatt report? Mr Eldridge—Yes, Senator. Senator Herron—The present state of where it is is that ATSIC has finalised a discussion paper which has gone to the states and to the indigenous people for comment. After that consultation, in light of the views expressed by the interested parties, it is planned to draft legislation and introduce it later this year. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you, Minister. Mr Chairman, I now want to go on to legal aid and human services. I am confident that we can finish this this evening CHAIR—I think that would be helpful to all concerned. Thanks, Senator Collins. Program B—Social and cultural Subprogram 2—Legal aid and human services Senator BOB COLLINS—Regarding health and community development, it appears in the annual report, Mr Chairman, for your advice, but it does not appear in the estimates structure. I have basically just got one question here for the minister. In fact, I asked you this question by way of interjection in the Senate. I have got here a copy of your letter to Gabi Hollows— which, of course, received some prominence recently in the national press. I was intrigued, as I indicated to you in debate, by the key paragraph in this letter, which reads: I have discussed this matter with my ministerial colleague, Mr Sharp, who has assured me that he will be amenable to you retiring from your responsibilities on the board of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority in order to be available for an appointment in the area of Aboriginal health delivery. This is simply, I can assure you, a genuine question seeking information. As I said by way of interjection, considering the fact that the administration of health and so on has been transferred to the Department of Human Services and Health—I think that transfer occurred in July 1995—can you tell me, Minister, what appointments within your gift there are in the area of Aboriginal health? Senator Herron—As you know—I think I said this in the Senate, too—I did not have a specific appointment in mind. But I had met Gabi on a number of occasions previously. I was very keen to have her involved in Aboriginal affairs and/or Aboriginal health. I thought that to have her imprimatur, if you like, would be a great achievement on my part. Senator BOB COLLINS—You certainly need one. Senator Herron—I did not know her well enough to approach her. I had intended approaching her right from the very beginning of getting the portfolio. I thought it would be great to have her aboard. I had had meetings with her over the lens factory. Senator BOB COLLINS—Sure, I understand. But aboard what, Minister? The good ship— Senator Herron—I beg your pardon? Senator BOB COLLINS—Have her aboard what? Senator Herron—Involved in Aboriginal— Senator BOB COLLINS—If you wrote me a letter—which you are not going to do— Senator Herron—I might. You never know, with your expertise.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—And said to me that you were offering an appointment in the area of— Senator Herron—I wrote to her and said, ‘I would like to discuss with you— Senator BOB COLLINS—I will repeat the letter. As I say, it is a genuine question. I am actually interested. I agree with your assessment of Gabi Hollows in this area. The first time I met Gabi Hollows was about 100 years ago at Maningrida when she was Fred Hollows’s nurse. Senator Herron—Yes—operating nurse. Senator BOB COLLINS—I have got to be politically correct these days, so I will shut up. Senator Herron—You could even agree with my adornment comment. Senator BOB COLLINS—Very attractive. Absolutely, without hesitation—an absolute knockout she was in Maningrida, let me tell you. Senator Herron—Is. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is. I am talking about a lot of years ago. CHAIR—Do not get carried away, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—She is an outstanding lady in any way. I agree with the minister’s assessment of her contribution in health. CHAIR—That is good. What about the question? Senator BOB COLLINS—I just want to find the paragraph—here it is. Minister, it was not just a discussion. This is what you said: I have discussed— it is a little firmer, Minister, than you suggest— this matter with my ministerial colleague, Mr Sharp, who has assured me that he will be amenable to you retiring from your responsibilities on the board of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority in order to be available for an appointment in the area of Aboriginal health delivery. Considering the prominence of this, considering the fact that, if Gabi Hollows had been minded to accept there would have had to have been some kind of real proposition to put to her, and considering that this is a fair while ago now, what I am asking you, Minister, is: what position—you were writing the letter—is there in your gift as minister? I made quite a number of appointments when I was minister. That is what I am asking. What is there in your portfolio that you can appoint Gabi Hollows to in the area of Aboriginal health? Senator Herron—Just prior to that meeting, I had met with her in relation to the lens factory—so there is a continuation—and I think I brought it up or intimated it at that previous meeting. Then—and you know the history of it—I was told she was in the building if I wanted to see her, and I said I would be very happy to. In fact, she asked to see me. Are you aware of that, Senator Collins? She actually asked to see me. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, I was not aware of that. Nothing hangs on it, I might add. Senator Herron—No, but I think it is important that you are aware of that. She asked to see me. She was down in the other office and asked to see me. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is fine. Senator Herron—But it was intimated that I had sought— Senator BOB COLLINS—I have been to see you, Minister, you know that.

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Senator Herron—I know, but it was intimated that there was a great plot occurring. This occurred about 10 months— Senator BOB COLLINS—This is not a trick question. Senator Herron—No, I know it is not, but I am trying to explain the context, if you will allow me. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, responsibility for health services was transferred to the Health Department in July 1995. You have written to Gabi Hollows as Minister for Aboriginal Affairs offering her an appointment. Senator Herron—That is right. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, you must have some idea about what you were going to appoint her to. Senator Herron—If you will allow me to tell you, I will tell you. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. Senator Herron—I had had this previous discussion in relation to the lens factory. Then I was told that she was in the building and she would like to see me. So I thought, ‘She must be going to tell me that she is interested in coming aboard.’ I wrote her a letter and said, ‘I would like to discuss with you as to where we can find something that is suitable for you.’ I think that is in the letter—I do not have it in front of me. That was all. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, that is not in the letter. Senator Herron—I wanted to see what she thought, before making a definite thing. I am sure that, if she had said that it was something in Michael Wooldridge’s department, he would be more than happy to get her involved in his department because, as I say, I think she would be— Senator BOB COLLINS—So you were just going to workshop it? Senator Herron—I was not going to call it a workshop. Senator BOB COLLINS—Kick it around? Chew the fat? Senator Herron—Yes, I wanted to discuss it with her, because I thought the important part was to get her imprimatur. Senator BOB COLLINS—So she could basically have a pick? Senator Herron—I am sorry? Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I am just trying to get a little definition in what it is you wanted her to do. Senator Herron—I had no particular appointment in mind. At that stage, as you know, we had been in government two months. I did not know what was even available at that stage. But it would have been great to have her aboard. Senator BOB COLLINS—Whatever? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—As long as she stepped off the aeroplanes. Senator Herron—And then, 10 months later, my letter comes back and bites me. Senator BOB COLLINS—It sure did. It was not your fault. I said that to you in the House. Senator Herron—When she did not reply, I thought, ‘Oh, well.’

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I asserted in the House that this whole affair had very little to do with you. I think you have just confirmed that in spades. Thank you. In terms of the vague and imprecise nature of what was going to be offered, which was basically to have a shop around and talk to Gabi about seeing if there was something that attracted her, perhaps even in Wooldridge’s portfolio— Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Clearly the primary purpose of this letter was not to get her on board. It was to actually get her off CASA, wasn’t it? Senator Herron—I thought it was to get her aboard. My primary purpose was to do that. Senator BOB COLLINS—You got dudded. Is that what you are saying? Senator Herron—I am not saying that at all. As I said in the Senate, I would still be interested. But perhaps a bit of water has passed under the bridge to allow that to occur. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I am sure it would be your view that, irrespective of how much water has flowed under the bridge at some stage or other, she would—and I agree with you—be a very positive appointment. Senator Herron—Particularly in the light of Aboriginal health care, the lens factory and trachoma program that Fred did, and all of that. Senator BOB COLLINS—Sure. I now have some questions on component 2.1—sport and recreation. I asked at earlier estimates if ATSIC had any plans for the particular involvement of Aboriginal people in the Sydney Olympics. A number of Aboriginal people have already foreshadowed the involvement that they may have in the Sydney Olympics. Minister, you said on that occasion that you were not particularly aware about this personally. But ATSIC officers advised us that, in 1996-97, ATSIC had for the first time entered into an arrangement with the Australian Sports Commission—which I was pleased to hear—for management in conjunction with its own indigenous sporting program. I was told during the hearings that it was hoped that ATSIC would have a major role in promoting indigenous involvement in sport and the development of elite indigenous participants in the lead-up to the games. Is there any update on that advice? Mr Eldridge—That is basically the situation. There is a forum at the ASC that deals with the administration of the indigenous sports program, incorporating the ATSIC contribution. Commissioner Wright is the commissioner with portfolio responsibility for sport and recreation, and he is participating in that forum. Senator BOB COLLINS—It is useful to know that. I will approach Commissioner Wright directly and talk to him about the Olympics. On the $470 million budget cuts that were announced by the government over the next four years, has ATSIC worked out whether there is going to be an equal reduction in each of the next four years, or is there likely to be some particular impact in the Olympic year itself? Mr Rees—The forward estimates for ATSIC, in terms of the $740 million, have already been deducted in terms of the savings. From memory, the saving in the last year was of the order of $78 million or $80 million. Senator BOB COLLINS—I asked the question because a former Prime Minister got a fair bit of stick over a very prominent announcement that no child would live in poverty and so on. What the Prime Minister should have said was, ‘No child need live in poverty’ et cetera. Senator Herron—It is impossible to rewrite history.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—I am delighted to hear you say that, Minister, because in terms of the little bit of history you have made, I would hate to see you rewrite this. You said: By the year 2000 when the Olympic Games are on I will defy anyone to say we have Third World conditions in any Aboriginal community in Australia. That is three years from now. Do you want to reaffirm that statement now, Minister? Senator Herron—I have looked into that very closely, having viewed Third World conditions. It depends on what you define as Third World conditions. Would you care to define them, Senator Collins? Senator BOB COLLINS—At the moment, I am not the one being asked the questions, I am asking them. Senator Herron—That is the very point— Senator BOB COLLINS—In terms of the relevance of tonight’s proceedings, can I say, with respect, it is your view as Minister for Aboriginal Affairs—unless you want to abrogate that position. What is your definition? I will give you an anecdote. I agree with your view that it is a very subjective thing. I was contacted—and I do not think I have bored you in the Senate with this story—after your many appearances on television in your capacity of assisting people in great distress in those Third World conditions, by a nurse who served over there too. She was extremely angered by what you said about that. She said that she also suffered the distress and trauma that you did in terms of the impact that it had on you that you gave testimony to. What she said—and I checked this out and found it to be absolutely correct—was that she survived that experience psychologically because of the work she had done for years in Australia in places like Utopia and a number of Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory. In terms of definition—and I want to draw you on this, Minister—she said it was outrageous—and I agree with her—to talk about conditions in a war zone, which is what that was, anywhere as being Third World conditions. The point she made was that that was a ridiculous comparison. She asserted that categorically, in terms of her experiences in Third World conditions—and I will give some detail—there are still, in her opinion, many communities in the Northern Territory that in real terms have conditions—in terms of sanitation, housing, clean water and all the rest of it—as bad as many of the communities she has worked in in Africa outside of a war zone. I thought that was a commonsense way to approach it. Leaving aside the definition—although that is important—do you reaffirm that that is an accurate statement? It has been widely publicised, as you know. Senator Herron—Yes, I made the statement. Senator Collins, in quoting what that nurse told you, you have just blown yourself out of the water. You said: in terms of sanitation, in terms of water, in terms of housing, et cetera. In specific terms, there is no doubt that that may be so. As we know, there are 210 Aboriginal communities that your government left without water. Senator BOB COLLINS—Assuming all that, you are the one who made this statement. Senator Herron—You are saying the bland statement ‘in Third World conditions.’ Senator BOB COLLINS—No, you said it, Minister.

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Senator Herron—You are separating out housing, water, sewerage. There is no doubt that there are 210 communities that do not have running water. Senator BOB COLLINS—They are fundamentals to human health, Minister. Senator Herron—There are 210 that do not have running water, as you know. Senator BOB COLLINS—I know. They all think they are going to get it by the year 2000, as a result of this statement. That is the reason I am asking these questions. Senator Herron—The point I am trying to make to you, which should be fairly obvious, is that there is no definition of Third World conditions—none. Senator BOB COLLINS—There must be. Senator Herron—No, there is not. I have researched it. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, what is yours? Senator Herron—I have researched it. I say there is none. It is a term that is used almost colloquially to suit the position of the person who is making the statement. Senator BOB COLLINS—Are you telling me this is a meaningless statement? Senator Herron—The phrase ‘Third World conditions’ is colloquial. Even the definition of which countries constitute the Third World is imprecise. I have looked into it, having made that statement. Senator BOB COLLINS—To go back a couple of minutes, you did tell the committee—and I was waiting for it—that you would provide us with your definition of ‘Third World conditions’. Senator Herron—I am trying to give it to you: there is no definition. That is my statement. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is a hell of a catch-22 statement. That is straight out of Catch-22. Heller could have written that. Senator Herron—I am trying to explain, even to you, Senator Collins, that there is no clearly accepted definition anywhere that I have been able to find of ‘Third World conditions’. Senator BOB COLLINS—So there is no definition? Senator Herron—There is not even a clear definition of which countries are in the Third World. There are Second World countries and First World countries. Senator BOB COLLINS—You put the date on it. Silly, reasonable people like me assumed that this was a target of some sort to address what you say is going to be the government’s priority to redress these 13 years of total neglect by the Labor government. Senator Herron—We are already addressing it. Senator BOB COLLINS—Okay, fine, now we are getting somewhere. You have just said to me that this is an indefinable expression. So what you are saying is that, when we get to the year 2000, when people say to you—as no doubt they will—‘You have not delivered on the commitment you gave that by the year 2000 there will be no Aboriginal communities in Australia that have Third World conditions,’ your answer to that will be, ‘There is no definition of "Third World conditions".’ Senator Herron—We are identifying the worst communities. As you know, we are doing a pilot program on those. Through the HIPP program, we are already addressing the, I think, 60 communities judged by a consultant to be the worst communities in the country. If we are

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Wednesday, 5 March 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 157 successful with the ATSIC Army program, we will expedite that to address those that are the worst. Whether you define— Senator BOB COLLINS—Successful with what, Minister? Senator Herron—Successful with that pilot program. Senator BOB COLLINS—You are not seriously depending on the outcomes of that to achieve this, are you? Senator Herron—I am seriously depending on it, to see how successful it is, because that is the only way to go. Senator BOB COLLINS—The only way to go? Senator Herron—Your government was unsuccessful, Senator Collins. I think this is a damned sight better than what you achieved, because you were not prepared to do it. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, did you note the public statements that have been made by the army on that proposal? Senator Herron—Yes, I have seen those statements. Senator BOB COLLINS—Are you aware of the private statements that are being made in the engineering units of the army in respect of that statement? Senator Herron—No doubt you have heard some scuttlebutt that I have not. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I live in a military town where we have a major engineering section. They tell me that they are flat out discharging their obligations to the army in terms of the engineering requirements of the army. Senator Herron—Well, I would hope they are flat out trying to discharge their requirements that we are putting upon them as well. I would expect nothing less of them. Senator BOB COLLINS—Okay, I will not pursue this. This was basically a trick statement. CHAIR—Any further questions? Anything on the community and youth support component, 2.2? Senator BOB COLLINS—I did spend some time on this, as you would recall, at the last estimates hearings. I said then that I believed it was probably one of the more painful cuts that ATSIC was forced to make. The program, as I understand, terminates at the end of this month. Is that correct? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—I was informed at the last hearing that 206 organisations were expected to have to wind up with the termination of this program. I was advised that those programs ranged from aged care hostels through to child care centres. Given that the 1994 Australian Bureau of Statistics survey indicated that 62 per cent of the indigenous population in Australia is aged between five and 24 years, a considerable priority, of course, was placed on youth programs. I wish to ask: is the advice that I received at the last hearings, that ATSIC expects over 200 organisations to wind up as a result of the termination of this program, still going to be realised? I refer to the actual outcome. Mr Eldridge—At this point, as I said earlier, it is premature to put a firm figure on it, but we have no reason to depart from our earlier estimate. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine, yes, it is getting closer and closer to the date. In that sense, I would assume that it would still be not necessary to correct that ballpark figure, that there will be around a thousand indigenous job losses as a result of these closures.

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Mr Eldridge—Yes. I think our earlier estimate was 500 from closing organisations and possibly another 500 from the winding down of other organisations. Senator BOB COLLINS—Can you confirm that one of these organisations that indeed will be wound up, is the national family violence intervention program, which sought to reduce the horrific level of domestic violence? Mr Eldridge—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I asked you this question at the last Senate estimates without getting a satisfactory answer to it and I will ask you again. Considering the fact that, as was confirmed in the last estimates, organisations providing, for example, specialist care for aged Aboriginal people in hostels are closing down as a result of this program, what assessment has been made to indicate what other programs will be able to fill the gaps created by these programs being closed down? Where is it expected that these people will go? Senator Herron—A number of organisations have made representations and, where possible, assistance has been given. For example, I was approached by and went to the NPY women’s council at Uluru, and made representations to the minister for health to see whether it would be possible to get some funding through his program. That has been forthcoming, I am not sure to what extent. Each organisation has attempted to make approaches, but I will ask the officers— Senator BOB COLLINS—I wonder if ATSIC could take that on notice. Senator Herron—Yes, I will ask the officers to give you an evaluation overall. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. If you could give me as much as you know, in any case, about where the people displaced from these organisations would go, where appropriate, I would be pleased. Senator Herron—Could we take that one on notice? Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, thank you. Senator Herron—Just to fill that in, of course we cannot give you a complete evaluation until the programs end, at the end of the month. Senator BOB COLLINS—I understand that, but that is not far away. Could we move on to component 2.3, law and justice? CHAIR—Okay. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, as you would be aware, I pursued with some vigour a number of questions in regard to the Aboriginal Legal Aid Service in New South Wales. There appears to be a widespread, and in my view completely erroneous, perception in some parts of the community that the decision to de-fund this service, and ATSIC investigations into this service, were in fact inspired by the Channel 9 current affairs program Sunday. Can I for the public record confirm that it was, in fact, ATSIC itself which initiated action against this organisation, following, as I understand it, representations from the New South Wales Aboriginal Justice Advisory Committee? Senator Herron—Yes, but I will get the officer to elaborate on that because I would like that to be in detail in the Hansard. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you, Minister. Mr Eldridge—Senator, the Sunday program was a very, very minor event that came very late in the process and had very little impact in terms of our decision making. It did have other impacts on ATSIC that we did not appreciate.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—It certainly had profound impacts on the government’s decision making. You got a special auditor out of that program. Mr Eldridge—In so far as the decision to de-fund the New South Wales ALS is concerned, that was a decision taken after a very long, hard road dating back as far as 1992-93, culminating with the appointment of a grant controller in 1994, the referral of concerns to the Australian Securities Commission, the preparation of an audit report by a commissioned accountant in 1994, the receipt of the Australian Securities Commission report and a whole series of attempts to address the problems that were revealed over that long period of time. It was a decision taken with great regret and reluctantly, I can assure you, by the commission but it was one that we had no choice on in the end. It was taken on accountability grounds. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, can I just follow up another matter from the last Senate estimates committee meeting. Did the Treasurer table in the parliament the section 17 report from the ASC into that service? I was advised in the last estimates that he was going to. Mr Eldridge—I am sorry, Senator, you have— Senator Herron—I remember that response, but I do not know whether in fact he did. Mr Eldridge—I will check and confirm it for you. I expect that he has, but I cannot confirm it at this point. Mr Rees—It is on the public record, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—That he did? Mr Rees—I am sure it was tabled because— Senator BOB COLLINS—I think it was; I am just asking for a comment. Senator Herron—I have got advice here. Yes, it was tabled. Senator BOB COLLINS—What I wanted to ask, again as a reasonable, ordinary person, is this, and perhaps the officers can simply advise the committee now: as I understand it—I have not had time to read the thing, but I will—basically, after all of that, after all of your referrals and everything that is on the public record, the bottom line was that nothing can be done in terms of recovering the money. Is that so? Let me put it in simple terms. Travelling allowance claims by members of parliament have been much in the news recently. Might I say for the record—and revenge, let me tell you has got nothing to do with this as far as I am concerned—that I am delighted that it is on the public record, let the chips fall where they may. Anyone can look at my TA any time they like. But, as you know—and this was given some publicity—an assertion was made against Paul Coe, one that I accept was valid, because he not only did not deny it, he confirmed it, that he had received a significant amount of travelling allowance, which is non-taxable. That means you can, basically, roughly double it in terms of an income supplement. This was for a trip overseas that he never went on. He subsequently was reported as saying that, yes, that was right, but that he had gone ahead and taken that money as reparation for past injustices done to Aboriginal people. I presume he meant Aboriginal people other than himself, because he seems to have done all right. On the face of it, my view is that anybody who falsely fills out an application form for travelling allowance is guilty of fraud against the legal aid service. He collected money for a trip he never went on and, therefore, there should be some process available to recover that money. Isn’t there? Mr Eldridge—I think we touched on this last time.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—We did, but we did not get anywhere with it. Mr Eldridge—Essentially, many of the issues addressed of that nature were matters that were subsequently ratified by the board of the organisation, and given, if you like, legitimate status. Senator BOB COLLINS—So, in fact, that old scam is the reason it happens. There is the guy that ran the store at Bathurst Island who went through half a million bucks in about six months. As I said to the Bulletin at the time, I seem to have spent an inordinate amount of my 20 years in politics trying to clean out the crooks in the communities. I am involved in another one of those exercises right now. In fact, I had the crooks on ABC radio telling me this morning that I was a terrible person—which worries me not one wit. That particular guy and a lot of others have got away with all this. The reason I am raising this—I am sure you realise this, Minister—is very deliberately to try to organise something to be done about it. The reason he got away scot-free with that theft of around half a million dollars in community assets, which was supposed to build a swimming pool for the better health of the people in the Tiwi Islands, was because all the shonks that he pulled were subsequently ratified in the minutes of the organisation that he worked for. All the shonks were at least technically approved by the organisation. He wrote the minutes, of course. You understand what I am saying. That is, in fact, a common cause, and it infuriates me. This is a common cause why the crooks, the thieves, the shonks, the lurk merchants and the bastards—to use an expression used by the Chief Minister—who inflict so much injustice on Aboriginal communities and, at the same time, attract negative publicity for Aboriginal people, who are the innocent parties, consistently get away with this; it is because of this particular problem. Now you are actually telling me that this precise thing is the reason that Coe is going to get away with this. Senator HERRON—Perhaps I can interpolate here, Senator Collins, and give you a fuller answer— Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Senator Herron—Which may assist. On 17 February this year, the New South Wales Supreme Court found that the Aboriginal Legal Service was insolvent and ordered its full liquidation. The liquidator is Price Waterhouse. I understand that the Aboriginal Legal Service has a number of creditors, including ATSIC and former ALS staff. Some are owed substantial amounts. While it is regrettable that Australia’s longest serving Aboriginal legal service has closed, it is noteworthy that new services have been provided with a firmer accountability base to serve New South Wales indigenous clients. I am informed that, following the defunding of the ALS New South Wales, section 20 notices have been issued totalling $927,536. I am advised by ATSIC of further section 20 notices to recover moneys in relation to breaches of grant terms and conditions, unused funds for overseas travel and unauthorised travel by directors. I am also informed that ATSIC has written to the New South Wales Law Society and the Australian Taxation Office in relation to the matter. I also have informed the Australian Federal Police to investigate. I understand that ATSIC has also lodged a caveat on the ALS’s Sydney property. We are unsure of the validity of this action, but the liquidators informed ATSIC that it is their intention to arrange for a sale of the ALS property in the near future. In summary, it has been

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Wednesday, 5 March 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 161 referred to the ATO and the federal police to take action. I would expect that, out of all that, something will occur. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you, Minister, I am somewhat encouraged to hear that. I concede, Mr Chairman, I personally have not had time to read all this, which is the reason I am asking the questions. So the book is not necessarily definitely closed? Senator Herron—That is correct, yes. That information I have given you has not been put on the public record prior to this. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, I had not heard it before, Minister, so I am grateful for that advice. Minister, I have one final question on this area in that case. I think it is beyond dispute that the travelling allowance matter that I raised is, in fact, fact. As far as ATSIC is aware, were the public claims made—I have forgotten the amounts, but it was an extremely substantial amount of money from the service which was for external consultancies; that is, generally, where I come from, briefing lawyers to represent Aboriginal people in court, other than lawyers in the service—essentially all paid to the director himself? Can you recall whether that is correct and what the amount was? Mr Eldridge—Senator, I believe that that is substantially the case. I cannot recall the amount— Senator BOB COLLINS—It was three-quarters of a million dollars or something, was it not? Senator Herron—From memory, I think what you have said is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—The reason I asked that question is that I think—and I have no hesitation in saying it here—that stinks on ice. But is that also something that is capable of being investigated by the police? Senator Herron—I think so, but I will give you an answer tonight, because it has been in the process. We are constrained a little by action that is in process. You understand what I am saying in relation— Senator BOB COLLINS—Not in here you are not. Senator Herron—No, in terms of any court action that might occur. Senator BOB COLLINS—Can I just say ‘may occur’. There is no constraint, Minister. If it is not on foot, this is all covered by privilege. Senator Herron—No, I meant in terms of any legal action that might be taken against somebody. We will ask Mr Miller to answer that. Mr Miller—I simply want to confirm that the minister did refer matters to the police, to the Australian Taxation Office, as he said, and it is now up to those bodies to examine the report of the Australian Securities Commission. They have powers to undertake their own investigations as well as that. It will be now a matter of time to see what the outcomes are from those particular processes. In terms of the operations of the legal service itself, I simply say that we need to exercise care in answering what percentage of briefing out costs may have been made to Mr Coe, vis-a- vis— Senator BOB COLLINS—Mr Miller, I was simply referring to the reported allegations. Mr Miller—I am simply aware that the legal service briefed out many lawyers to represent people in court and I do not think we would know the relativity between that and other moneys.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Minister, can I say I am very grateful for that advice because I was not aware— Senator Herron—Could I say, Senator Collins, I was not aware of the matter that you were on the ABC radio. If we can give any assistance to you in that regard, I would be very happy to do so. Senator BOB COLLINS—It probably would be useful if I briefed your office, which I will do tomorrow, on this matter. CHAIR—Thank you. Any further questions on this? Senator BOB COLLINS—Just one last question on the legal aid service, which is important. Can you advise me what the provisions now are for providing legal assistance to the clients that were served by the organisation? Mr Eldridge—We have established interim service providers in the state of New South Wales, pending a move to regionalised permanent arrangements in the future. I can, if I can find it, give you the names and locations of those organisations. Senator BOB COLLINS—I am happy to take it on notice. Mr Eldridge—Interim services have been put in place and services are being provided. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. This is my last question in this section. I noted from the last annual report that a review was conducted or is being conducted into Aboriginal legal aid services in the Northern Territory. Is that completed? Mr Eldridge—It is, in fact, just commencing, Senator. There have been some delays in getting it— Senator BOB COLLINS—That is fine, it is too early to ask about that, then. CHAIR—That finishes subprogram 2. Subprogram 3—Housing infrastructure and health Senator BOB COLLINS—This is the program that will enable us to get some greater detail about how well we are going with the army help program, which you just said is the only answer. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, here we go again! Senator BOB COLLINS—That is what you said. You said on the ABC— Senator Herron—We will see from a pilot program—if the outcomes of the use of the army are successful, then we will certainly pursue that avenue of attack. Senator BOB COLLINS—It is all right. I will get the Hansard. Senator Herron—If I can use the army I will. Senator BOB COLLINS—I agree, if you can. Senator Herron—I am always careful of your interpretations of what I say. Senator BOB COLLINS—You said on the ABC PM program on Tuesday, 11 February—I just stress the date, Minister: 11 February this year—that a lot of work had gone on in respect of the program and that there would be an announcement at the end of the month, that is February, on six pilot studies. February has come and gone, Minister, and there has been no announcement. Senator Herron—That is right. Senator BOB COLLINS—Now is your chance.

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Senator Herron—I would love to, but no. The delay has actually been with the communities themselves and the consultation process. As you know, Senator Collins, I also said that nothing would occur unless there had been full consultation with the communities and the communities wanted the involvement of the army. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. I know one community that got a letter back from you yesterday saying that they are not going to get it. Senator Herron—You would also be well aware that there have been cyclones, floods and things in your area. Senator BOB COLLINS—I did not notice, Minister. Senator Herron—Yes, well, you would be aware of it nonetheless. There has been delay in that consultative process, but it is being expedited. I had hoped, as I said in February, to make an announcement at the end of that month. I am still hoping to make one fairly soon, but I cannot do so until the memoranda of understanding are signed between the communities and the government. Senator BOB COLLINS—So that is the problem? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I know one community that was highly excited by that announcement, and, I might add, a community with a very positive relationship with the armed services. The army is a welcome visitor in this place and have been out there a number of times. In response to their inquiries, this community was advised by your office in late January ‘that the initiative was still in its early stages and a number of important issues would need to be resolved before specific projects are identified or ready to commence.’ Is that correct? Do you understand the conjunction? Senator Herron—I would accept that statement, but I do not know what they do. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, let me tell you. The contact was made—and I can tell you who it was afterwards—to your office directly in late January. They were advised by one of your staff that it was early days yet and they just had to wait because there were ‘important issues to be resolved before specific projects are identified.’ That was at the end of January. You said on 11 February that a lot of work had gone on and there would be an announcement made at the end of that month. I am just wondering how those two— Senator Herron—That is what I was told at the time. As I said, I had hoped to make that statement at the end of the month, but, of course, I was in the hands of the various groups that were doing the consultations, the army, ATSIC and the department of health. Senator BOB COLLINS—Okay. I will not press that. Minister, there was overwhelming public reaction in the communities given your first statement and Dr Wooldridge’s statement. In fact, I think Dr Wooldridge may have pre-dated you. Senator Herron—Yes, he did. Senator BOB COLLINS—He did indeed. He was very enthusiastic about it. Your statement said that the army would be used to provide water and sewerage to the 100 communities that have been identified as being most badly in need of adequate water and sewerage. But, in fact, the reality is that the real scope of this initiative is extremely limited, is it not? Senator Herron—As I announced in the Senate, there is a pilot program. We will do a pilot program, and, as you are aware, it has been well received in the community— Senator BOB COLLINS—The news has been well received.

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Senator Herron—that we are at least doing something. Senator BOB COLLINS—No-one has actually received the help yet. Senator Herron—No, not yet, but we will be announcing fairly soon the six pilot projects, which may go down to five. As I say, the memoranda of understanding have not been signed yet. Senator BOB COLLINS—You are aware, of course, of the public statements that were made immediately following this announcement from army sources. For example, one of the early statements that was made—and I saw it; I think it was Dr Wooldridge that made it rather than you—had a huge impact on the press and on talk-back radio programs. Everyone went wild for 24 hours. People said, ‘The army can come in and put down bores because they are very good at doing this sort of stuff.’ You would be aware, of course, that the army immediately put out a statement saying that, for the last five years, they were actually contracting their work out— Senator Herron—They had sold their equipment. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is right, because it is cheaper and more effective for them, because of their constrained engineering capacity, to actually get contractors to do this work. You would also be aware, would you not, Minister, of the extremely pained and indeed very strongly expressed reaction of the private companies that actually earn a living from providing these very services, very effectively in many cases, to communities. There is a reaction, of course, that is immediately provoked, and it is a real problem if you are going to use army services to displace private business people, small business people in most cases, from providing these same essential services. Do you concede that that is a problem? If the pilot is successful, and if it takes off, you are going to have the army tramping all over the countryside doing major engineering contracting work, laying down pipes and providing sewerage and water. What is the problem for the government in respect of its support for small business if that, as it must, displaces a whole raft of small businesses that in fact make their living from doing this? Senator Herron—I can understand, Senator Collins, why you are so upset about this, because for 13 years your government did not do it. Senator BOB COLLINS—Not that tired old mantra. Minister, that continued statement is so demonstrably false. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, the world is divided into those people who say ‘Can do’ and those who decide they can’t do it because of all the particular problems that they envisage. You certainly remind me of the latter. We are going to give it a go. Senator BOB COLLINS—We can exchange insults all night, if you like. Senator Herron—We are going to give it a go. Senator BOB COLLINS—Give what a go, though? Senator Herron—We do not know the outcome, putting the army into these communities. Senator BOB COLLINS—Can I just ask a question? Senator Herron—I am not aware of any overwhelming reaction. Senator BOB COLLINS—Oh really. Senator Herron—I have had one letter, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—Do you know why, Minister?

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Senator Herron—I suppose if you are in opposition, Senator Collins, you would get— Senator BOB COLLINS—Correct—more than that. Senator Herron—I find in political circles that one letter is often said to be 100 contacts. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is right. Minister, are you aware why there has not at the moment been an overwhelming response? It is because nothing has happened. Are you also aware that most of the people who are providing these services do not believe it is going to happen? Senator Herron—It will happen, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—It will happen? Fine. Then this is a relevant question, Mr Chairman. Senator Herron—We will do it, Senator Collins. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, can I then put the question to you again? Instead of all this meandering, let us get on with it. It is a real problem, let me assure you. When I was in government—and this involved organisations such as Asset Services; you would be familiar with the problem—these government agencies were going out into the marketplace in the contestability stakes. We were overwhelmed with complaints, let me tell you, from the private business sector about government agencies such as Dasfleet, Comcar and Asset Services competing with private companies in the marketplace. Let me tell you, they had an enormous amount of sympathy from me because I have some views about that too. I want to ask you this again: you say it will happen, you say that this will be successful—you have just said it— and that the army will be used in some large-scale way to provide services which are currently provided by private contractors. Senator Herron—No, I did not say that, Senator Collins. With respect, and I have great difficulty in having respect for the statements that you make— Senator BOB COLLINS—This is impossible. Joseph Heller could have written a book about you, Minister. Senator Herron—You are again putting your own interpretation, Senator Collins. You are trying to put interpretations that I have not made. I will say it again, Senator Collins—and we can go on all night until we get into you what I am saying, to get it on the Hansard record— Senator BOB COLLINS—I am happy to, Minister. Senator Herron—What I said is that we are doing a pilot program, we are getting memoranda of understanding. We will pursue those pilot programs so that they happen. I have that one letter from a private contractor, and I have written back to him to say that, where contractors are available, of course they will be able to contract for the provision of those services. They will not be excluded. You have just said that I said the army would exclude private contractors. I said nothing of the kind. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, I did not say that, Minister. Senator Herron—Well, read the Hansard. I am listening acutely to you because— Senator BOB COLLINS—I certainly will. Reading the Hansard on you is a delight, let me tell you. Senator Herron—I have found that Senator Collins—

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Senator BOB COLLINS—You are the greatest challenge to the Hansard reporters in this building. CHAIR—Can we have one at a time? Senator BOB COLLINS—If he wants to sit here and exchange insults, I am happy to accommodate him. CHAIR—Can I say to you both that we have not got all night. This is the final hearing of this committee. I think we are straying quite a long way in terms of the length of time—with respect to you both—and in terms of asking questions and responding to them. I would ask you both to be a little more succinct and to the point in terms of the questions that are being asked. We do not want second reading speeches on them. Senator BOB COLLINS—With respect, Mr Chairman, I do not think the questions could be much more succinct. CHAIR—And I hope that we can be succinct in the answers, and then we will have a chance to get through, in an orderly way, the program. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. Minister, as the Hansard record will show, about one minute ago you said, ‘This will be successful’. That was referring to the pilot programs. I hope you are right. If it is successful, by simple definition, Minister, there will be an extended operation in that case beyond the pilot stage. I guess the reason you are doing the pilots is to get to the stage where the army will be involved in actually providing directly essential services to Aboriginal communities. Is that correct? Is that succinct enough for you, Mr Chairman? CHAIR—Yes. Senator Herron—If necessary. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. That being the case, Minister, what is the position of the government—and particularly, I think it is Mr Prosser, the Minister for Small Business and Consumer Affairs—as to the reaction there will be, let me assure you, Minister, from the many small businesses that already privately contract these services? Senator Herron—I have said to you, Senator Collins, and I will say it again—you do not want to hear it apparently because you then put a different interpretation on it, but I will be as succinct as I can—that where private contractors are available the work will be let out to them. Senator BOB COLLINS—By the army? Senator Herron—By the committee that is controlling the project, not necessarily by the army. As you know, it is a combined army, health and ATSIC organisational structure. Senator BOB COLLINS—Run by a committee? Senator Herron—No, run by ATSIC. Senator BOB COLLINS—But there is a committee, you just said, that will actually— Senator Herron—There is a committee. You could call it a committee, if you like. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, you called it a committee. Senator Herron—Well, a coordinating group. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine.

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Senator Herron—With respect, Mr Chairman, here we go again. We are now going into the semantics of ‘committee’ as opposed to ‘a coordinating group’. Senator BOB COLLINS—You said it, Minister, not me. Senator Herron—Yes, I know, Senator Collins. I would like that to be brought to the attention of the chairman. Senator BOB COLLINS—Unless I am hearing things, Mr Chairman, you said, Minister, that the committee would determine if private contractors would get the work. Fine. My next question is, very succinctly, are you saying then, Minister, that in situations where private contractors are available to do the work the army would not be used? Senator Herron—When it is considered that they can deliver the services, of course they will be employed. Senator BOB COLLINS—In preference to the army? Senator Herron—As you know, all that the army is doing is providing the support services. I will read it out to you so that we have got it on the record as to what the army’s involvement is. Let me find where it is. Senator BOB COLLINS—I know you are desperate to help. Senator Herron—We want to give an accurate answer, Senator Collins, otherwise you might get into definitional problems. Here we are. The memorandum of understanding will determine the arrangements between the ATSIC, army and the Department of Health and Family Services, including specifying responsibility for cost. Senator BOB COLLINS—Did you say the ATSIC army, Minister? Senator Herron—No, ATSIC comma army, and the Department of Health and Family Services. Do you see what I mean, Mr Chairman? Senator BOB COLLINS—Well, that is the way you read it out, Minister. CHAIR—Senator Collins, just let the minister read— Senator BOB COLLINS—I see; he does the provocation and I am not supposed to respond. Is it a one-way street, Mr Chairman? CHAIR—Senator Collins, the Minister is trying to read something out for the benefit of the committee. Please give him a go. Senator BOB COLLINS—Are you going to read it out? Senator Herron—I thought you were reading a bit of paper there; I was waiting for your attention. Senator BOB COLLINS—I can scratch my butt and pick my nose at the same time, Minister. It is okay, I know you can’t. Senator Herron—Well, you have got a big enough one to scratch, yes. In general it is expected that ATSIC and the department of health funds will be used for funding for the capital and material costs of projects, including the hire of any necessary equipment, and the army will be covering costs associated with their labour and technical expertise. ATSIC and health department funds will be provided by way of specific funding allocation, whereas in general the army’s cost will be in kind. As you know, the health department is allocating $5 million to the project. ATSIC funds will come from allocations for national Aboriginal health strategy projects. We are expecting that there will be a range of additional benefits to communities which participate in the project

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 168 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 5 March 1997 through the possible involvement of army medical teams in some ancillary work. This ancillary benefit will not be known until specific circumstances of the communities are known, but it could be such things as road and airstrip upgrading and maintenance. Senator BOB COLLINS—What is the new target date for the announcement of the pilot projects, Minister? Senator Herron—I have not got a target date. As I said to you before— Senator BOB COLLINS—You did have one—it was the end of February. Senator Herron—No. Here we go again, Mr Chairman. You are well known for this among your own colleagues, Senator Collins, are you aware of that? Senator BOB COLLINS—Mr Chairman, with respect, if I am going to cop insults all night, I will respond. Maybe you can just tell the minister to cut it out? Senator Herron—These are statements of fact, Senator Collins, not insults. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, can I remind you of what you said on the ABC program on Tuesday, 11 February. You said— Senator Herron—And I do not resile from it. Senator BOB COLLINS—You just said that you had not set a target. Minister, you said— Senator Herron—The pedantry of this gets to me, Mr Chairman. Senator BOB COLLINS—Can I just ask the question. You said there would be an announcement at the end of February on the six pilot studies. That has not happened for the reasons you gave. The question was: when do you expect the announcement to be made? Senator Herron—I have said to you, Senator Collins, I am awaiting advice from the discussions that are occurring with the communities. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. Senator Herron—I am not setting a date now— Senator BOB COLLINS—That is all you needed to say. Senator HERRON—I understood then— CHAIR—Just a moment, Senator Collins. Minister, Mr Plowman was sitting here to answer questions in relation to this. I am not sure whether you would like him to supplement that or is that all cleared up? Senator Herron—I read out the answer I think. Senator BOB COLLINS—I will now move to component 3.1—home ownership. Can ATSIC provide me with the statistics, ballpark figures are enough if you have got them, on the level of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander home ownership over the last decade—that is, I am interested in comparative figures 10 years to now? Mr Plowman—The 1991 census showed that the rate of indigenous home owning or purchasing was about 28 per cent compared to the general Australian population rate of about 68 per cent. Senator BOB COLLINS—Does ATSIC have any more contemporaneous information? Mr Plowman—No. The best information on home ownership comes from the census because there are a few questions in there on home ownership and buying, and we will obviously have the details at the end of 1997 or early 1998 in terms of what comes out of the

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1996 census. The 1991 census was not all that much different from the 1986 census in terms of indigenous home ownership. Senator BOB COLLINS—One of the concerns I had with the establishment of ATSIC— and I expressed it at the time—was that ATSIC was going to be used as the dumping ground in terms of responsibility for politicians at the state and federal level—they would be able to wash their hands of any responsibility to their own citizens if they happened to be black. Acknowledging the fact that a primary responsibility in housing Aboriginal Territorians, New South Welshman or whatever rests with the relevant state governments, in the same way as they have a responsibility to the other citizens in their states, can you provide the committee with advice—and take it on notice by all means if you wish to—about the actual number of houses that have been provided to Aboriginal people, in broad terms, since the inception of ATSIC? How many Aboriginal people have actually had housing provided to them since ATSIC was first established? Mr Plowman—I think we will have to take that on notice, but it should be relatively easy to get from annual reports and the like. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. My advice, in terms of assisting you—not that you will need any assistance—is that as most commercial home loan packages still remain effectively out of the reach of most indigenous families, because of their low incomes and their inability to get normal commercial loans, ATSIC assisted schemes over the last decade or so have actually helped to boost home ownership to somewhere in excess of 7,500 over the last decade. Mr Plowman—That is correct; in terms of home ownership we have given about 7,500 loans. My non-published analysis would suggest that we contribute about 40 per cent towards indigenous home buying nationally. Senator BOB COLLINS—If there has been an analysis done, I would be grateful if you could incorporate that in the answer you give. Mr Plowman—It is a few sums on the back of an envelope. Senator BOB COLLINS—That will do. It is as good as anything else you get around this place. I have questions now on component 3.2—community housing and infrastructure. Can I confirm that ATSIC spent somewhere in the order of $238 million under this program in 1995-96? Mr Plowman—That is about correct. I do not have the figures in front of me. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is it correct that, over recent years, that supplementary funding provided by ATSIC through the community housing and infrastructure program has enabled essential infrastructure services to be provided to over 500 remote communities throughout Australia which otherwise would not have been available? Mr Plowman—We have spent quite a lot of money over those years. I do not know whether 500 is correct, but there would be a huge number. Senator BOB COLLINS—I would be happy if you take that on notice. It is a large number. Mr Plowman—We may not be able to be exact. In terms of our performance indicators for infrastructure, it does not always go by community; it goes to organisations and some organisations provide to more than one community, as you would be aware. We will do what we can, within reason.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—With that caveat on it, if you would not mind, thank you. In line with the national commitment to improved outcomes in program and program service delivery for Aboriginal peoples and Torres Strait Islanders, agreed to by COAG in 1992, the Commonwealth and ATSIC agreed to a framework to negotiate with state and territory governments to improve coordination of housing funding, the Aboriginal rental housing component and the Commonwealth-state housing agreement and ATSIC housing component. As I recall, the aim of that program was to achieve better housing outcomes for indigenous people through streamlining all of those housing programs, and self-determination, self- management and so on, through the establishment of indigenous housing authorities in each state. Can you recall if the first one of those agreements was actually signed with the Northern Territory government in 1995? Mr Plowman—That is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—I thought it was. The reason I raised that is that that agreement— and I thought this was significant—actually recognises an equal partnership between ATSIC and the NT government in the provision of these services. Is that correct? Mr Plowman—Yes—ATSIC and the Commonwealth. Senator BOB COLLINS—Housing funds under that program are actually pooled under the control of the Indigenous Housing Authority of the Northern Territory. That is correct, is it? Mr Plowman—That is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—Arising out of all of that—and the agreement was signed in 1995—I understand that a five-year plan has been developed to implement all of that. Is that correct? Mr Plowman—I understand they have done the strategic plan. I am not quite sure of the details of that strategic plan because it would be very recent, if that is the case. They were moving towards it— Senator BOB COLLINS—I was in fact chasing whether it had been completed. Mr Plowman—I am not quite clear whether it has been completed, but if it has not it is very close. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thanks. If it is relevant, could you provide me with any more definite advice on that? Mr Plowman—Yes, and I will try to get you a copy if one is available. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you, I would be grateful for that. The reason I am interested is that I understood a priority of this program for 1995-96 was the health infrastructure priority project scheme that was established in 1994-95 to fund large projects. That was over half a million dollars targeted at essential services, such as housing, water, sewerage and power supplies. Is it a fact that around 60 projects were being funded under that scheme? Mr Plowman—The HIP projects do not come under the arrangements under the Indigenous Housing Authority. HIP is separate and it is a national ATSIC program. The funding arrangements under IHANT, as it is called, are the regional council housing funds plus the Aboriginal rental housing program funds that are relevant to the Territory, and the Territory itself puts in a couple of million dollars. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you very much.

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Mr Plowman—There are 58 programs nationally. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. That is a national program? Mr Plowman—Yes, it is. Senator BOB COLLINS—Again, I am happy for you to take this on notice. I know that ATSIC, the CLC and the power and water authority in the territory have contributed to the extremely important ground water survey which has been conducted in Central Australia by AGSO and which was due to be completed in December, as I understood from the last questions I asked. Do you know whether it was completed then? Mr Plowman—No, it is due to be completed in the next couple of months. They have recently published a record of the consultations which were undertaken by Peter Toyne and his service and they have given a presentation recently to ATSIC and a few other people interested in research on housing infrastructure. It is quite interesting. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, indeed. Is that available to the committee? Mr Plowman—Yes, the published consultation report is a public document. Senator BOB COLLINS—Terrific. Is ATSIC in a position to provide us with a copy of that? Mr Plowman—I do not know whether we have a copy. If we do, I am sure we will be able to give one to you. If we do not, we will ask AGSO to give you one. Senator BOB COLLINS—I can go to AGSO, but if ATSIC can organise it that will shortcut the process. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, I do not know whether you are aware that there was a state housing ministers’ conference in Darwin in November which I attended. We achieved bilateral agreement between all the states and territories and the Commonwealth in relation to Aboriginal housing. Some of them have been signed and they are hoping to have those completed by the end of this year. [10.35 p.m.] Subprogram 5—Aboriginal Hostels Limited Senator BOB COLLINS—I asked a number of questions about Aboriginal hostels at the last hearing. You may recall it was confirmed that the Lois O’Donoghue Hostel in Port Augusta was one of eight that it had been decided would close. I asked whether the closures of these hostels would affect, as I had been advised, around 2,700 people, but there was no absolute certainty about that. Is it possible to shed any further light on the closures of the hostels and those affected—indeed, have the hostels closed? What arrangements, if any, have been made to accommodate the occupants who would have been rendered homeless as a result? Mr Clarke—Senator, the decision was made in December to close the Lois O’Donoghue Hostel. The directors have since deferred closure for another six months, which is due to the community, both Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal, in Port Augusta giving us a commitment that occupancy levels will improve. That evaluation will take place at the end of June. At this stage, it is not faring too well. We have closed some of the hostels that we had planned to close. The Townsville student flats have closed, as have the Ngurrampaa Hostel in Broken Hill, Doug Scott Hostel in Sydney, Topsy Smith Hostel in Alice Springs and Jim Hagan Hostel in Toowoomba. We have closed the Camooweal Villages but we handed it over to the communities in Camooweal. Of course, this affects residents and proposed residents. We have tried to minimise the effect on residents

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 172 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 5 March 1997 by rationalising the closure of these hostels to the poor performing hostels, the ones with low occupancy. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you very much. If it is determined that the Lois O’Donoghue Hostel is going to close, is there any possibility of transferring the ex-admiral’s flag to another ship in terms of the name? Frankly, I do not think it is an unimportant thing. Mr Clarke—Directors have expressed concerns about naming hostels after individuals for the sole reason that when we do close them we have problems with communities. We do not propose to transfer the name of the Lois O’Donoghue Hostel. Senator BOB COLLINS—That was the reason I asked the question. There is, in fact, a general concern at board level about the practice in any case. Mr Clarke—That is right, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—Of course, there is always the constant problem, as there has been in the territory, about what happens when people die. Thank you very much. Mr Chair- man, that is all I have for this issue. CHAIR—As there are no questions on AIATSIS or program support, we will move onto program C. [10.39 p.m.] Program C—Strategic development and support Subprogram 1—Strategic planning and policy Senator BOB COLLINS—Is it the intention of the government to release the document titled Social justice for indigenous Australians 1995-96? Senator Herron—It is a public document. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is it? Senator Herron—Yes, I have certainly seen it and read it. I assumed that it was publicly available. Sorry, I now realise it has not been printed—but I have read it! Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, but you are special—you get advance copies. Senator Herron—It is the intention, anyway, to publish it. Senator BOB COLLINS—It will be a public document. Mr Hoffman—Can I check that, Senator. Senator Herron—Yes, we had better check it. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thanks, if you would not mind Mr Hoffman. Senator Herron—We will provide you with a copy. Senator BOB COLLINS—Can I just explain that my advice was that there had been a delay in printing it. Just one question on the annual report that I am curious about, Minister, and you can take this on notice, if you like. The advice that I got just a few minutes ago, in terms of the break-up of the broadcasting stuff, was that there had not been an analysis made of it and so on. I was curious, then, as to why the ATSIC annual report says very clearly under the heading ‘broadcasting outcomes’: The broadcasting sub-component has been extremely successful in achieving its objectives in only a short period of time. There has been no analysis. On what basis was that statement made in the annual report?

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Senator Herron—What I was referring to was an analysis of penetration of the communities. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. Senator Herron—They are both compatible. As you will understand, I was interested in trying to evaluate it. CHAIR—Thank you, Minister. We go to component 2.3, indigenous women’s issues. Senator BOB COLLINS—I wanted to follow up on some statements that the minister made—and I am sure he will recall them—at the last estimates hearing. I pursued the question of the effect of budget cuts in relation to women’s centres in Central Australia. A large number of them, Minister, as you would recall, were affected by these cuts. The minister said that he shared my concern about the possible closure of these centres and said that it was a matter he intended to discuss with the new board. Did those discussions between yourself and the board take place, Minister? And, if so, what was the outcome? Senator Herron—A new board is a new board, as you know, and the board is nearly entirely composed of newly elected people. It has been brought to their attention. We are going before the expenditure review committee in relation to the development of the budget shortly. Senator BOB COLLINS—So the discussions, Minister, that you said you would have with the new board on the closure of these women’s centres have, in fact, taken place? Senator Herron—Yes, at the last board meeting, the week before last. Senator BOB COLLINS—Obviously, I am not expecting any response now. I will take that up later, thank you. I have actually asked the questions I wanted to in respect of the legal unit, which comes under subprogram 3, in relation to Hindmarsh Island already. Subprogram 3—Legal and RCGRMU Senator BOB COLLINS—How much input has ATSIC’s royal commission government response monitoring unit having into the proposed national summit that has been announced on deaths in custody later this year? Mr Hoffman—The royal commission government response monitoring unit has taken a lead role in organising the indigenous summit and the consultations which occurred prior to that summit, which was held here in Parliament House late in February. It has also provided support for the attendance at the summit of around 100 indigenous people from all states and territories of Australia. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. CHAIR—That finishes program C, strategic government support program. [10.44 p.m.] Program D—Corporate services program Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, you would be aware that, at earlier hearings of this committee, it was suggested by, among others, Social Justice Commissioner, Mick Dodson, that it would have been far wiser to have waited for the final report of the review of the Aboriginal Councils and Associations Act 1976 before appointing a special auditor into ATSIC. Minister, have you received the final report of that review? Senator Herron—No. Senator BOB COLLINS—We have a copy of it.

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Senator Herron—I do not have a comment from the board. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, you do have the report, don’t you? You said you had not got it. I thought it had been completed. Mr Rees—What were you asking about the review of councils and associations, Senator? Senator BOB COLLINS—A review was conducted. There was a steering committee. The Institute of Aboriginal Studies was on it. Senator Herron—We are awaiting the board’s— Mr Rees—The report has been made to the minister, Senator. The commissioners have not transmitted a view on the report to the minister. Senator BOB COLLINS—I understand that. Minister, you threw me there—you said that you did not have the report. As I understand it, you do have it. Senator Herron—I have the report, but I do not have the board’s— Senator BOB COLLINS—They are two separate things. Thank you. But you have the report? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Has the report been circulated to interested parties? Mr Hoffman—Yes. The report has been circulated. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is it intended to release the document publicly before the government response? Do you know? I know it has reasonably wide circulation. Mr Rees—I thought the document was on the public record. Senator BOB COLLINS—I do not know. That is why I am asking the question. Mr Rees—It is on the public record. Senator BOB COLLINS—It is. As far as you are concerned, it is a public item. Mr Rees—As I understand it, and we can correct the record, a summary of the review has been widely issued. The full document, which is really rather bulky, is available on limited request. Senator BOB COLLINS—So it is perfectly proper that the reason I ask—I have a copy of it, and I have had requests for other copies of it—is that I did not want to distribute it if it is not a public document. Mr Rees—It is. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Minister, you have received the report and no doubt—because of the absolutely central role that this whole affair took in the government’s deliberations on Aboriginal affairs—you would have read it. Do you agree with the Social Justice Commissioner, Mick Dodson, that it would have been wiser to have awaited that report before taking action in relation to the Special Auditor into ATSIC? Senator Herron—What do you expect me to answer to that, Senator Collins? Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I am just asking the questions. You are answering them. Senator Herron—You surely do not expect me to resile from the fact that we put a special auditor in. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, if you want to play—

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Senator Herron—No. I just— Senator BOB COLLINS—It was a very precise question. Why don’t you just answer it? Senator Herron—I think it is a silly question. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is that your answer? Senator Herron—No. The answer is that I disagree with him. Senator BOB COLLINS—Have you read the report? Senator Herron—The Social Justice Commissioner’s report? Senator BOB COLLINS—No, Minister, the report— Senator Herron—Repaying you, Senator Collins, I want to get a precise question from you. What are you referring to? Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, I will go over the ground again. This is a central issue as far as you and your government are concerned. The report is into the Aboriginal Councils and Associations Act. Minister, as you know, councils and associations incorporated under that act receive, in rough terms, about half of the money disbursed in grants by ATSIC and are responsible for a disproportionately higher amount of the difficulties that are experienced in terms of accountability. This is an important report. You said initially that you had not received it. That has been corrected now: you have received it. I am not quite sure how precise the question can be. I am asking you, Minister—having received it, as you have—have you read it? Senator Herron—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Having read the report—and I have read it—do you agree with the Social Justice Commissioner that it would have been wiser to have awaited that report, now that you have it, before you appointed the Special Auditor? Senator Herron—I said no. Senator BOB COLLINS—Does the report reach any similar conclusions to those of the Special Auditor in relation to the level of accountability that is required of organisations seeking ATSIC funding? You have said you have read it, so I assume you know the answer. Senator Herron—Yes, I want to give you a precise answer, either yes or no, but I will seek advice. Senator BOB COLLINS—Having read it, I am testing you on it. I have read it. Senator Herron—The report has a lot about program accountability, and we are looking at it for a response. As I mentioned to you, it has gone before the board. Senator BOB COLLINS—Does the report conclude that the ACA act has become a classic piece of over-regulation—this is reminiscent of the Special Auditor’s findings—and that the direction of reforms in 1992 to meet the need for greater accountability were misguided because they left little room for flexibility in the accountability guidelines. Is that correct? Mr Hoffman—Senator, that is a conclusion of the report. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. Thank you. The Minister says he has read it; I am testing him on that proposition. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, I have read a lot of material since I read that. You would not want me to give an inaccurate answer. Senator BOB COLLINS—Absolutely not.

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Senator Herron—Nor would I. Senator BOB COLLINS—Okay, it is a conclusion. Is it correct that a major firm of accountants estimated in their submission under the review that the annual costs involved for corporations in meeting the audit requirements of the act would be in the order of $20 million? Mr Rees—I would have to confirm that. Senator BOB COLLINS—There cannot have been too much of this report that actually impacted on you. Senator Herron—There have been a lot of things impacting on me, Senator Collins. But, as I said, that report is going for a review by the board, and we will let you know what they think, at the appropriate time. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is that correct? Mr Rees—We would have to check for you. There were quite a number of consultancies done as part of the review, as you would know, Senator. CHAIR—Do you want to take it on notice. Mr Rees—Yes please. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Is it correct that, despite all this expense and administrative effort, in ATSIC’s view the accountability of corporations set up under the ACA act is no better than that of the indigenous bodies it funds which have incorporated themselves under the general law rather than the act? Mr Rees—That is a possible conclusion, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Is it correct that the report says that it is in everyone’s interest to see accountability improved, but accountability must be seen as something more than whether the ACA act requirements have been met? That is, the report makes the conclusion, does it not, that the real question is whether the outcomes—usually the delivery of a community service—have actually been performed? Mr Rees—The report makes a distinction between accountability in a statutory law context and accountability in terms of programs. Its emphasis is to say that, if you want accountability for outcomes, the appropriate way to achieve that is through ATSIC. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Is one of the major recommendations of the review that the ACA act be rewritten, returning it to its original purpose of a simple law, flexible enough to allow indigenous bodies around Australia to incorporate in ways that are appropriate to them? Mr Rees—That is correct, Senator. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. Is it also one of the conclusions of the report that ATSIC’s funding system should be reviewed so that the weight of accountability can be picked up where the performance of outcomes is the main concern? Mr Rees—That is also true. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. We are on the home straight now. Subprogram 7—Evaluation and audit Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, you would be aware that I wrote to you on 20 November last year, seeking a briefing from ATSIC on its carriage of the Special Auditor’s report. That request was denied by you. That is one of the few requests for briefings that I have had denied by anybody. Not once in all my years as minister did I ever refuse a briefing

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Wednesday, 5 March 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 177 to an opposition member. I wish to pursue a number of issues that I wished to raise at that briefing regarding the final report of the Special Auditor and progress within ATSIC and the recommendations from KPMG Peat Marwick. As you would be aware, Minister, the Special Auditor reported that it had issued 60 ‘not fit and proper’ determinations, and the audit process had been terminated before these organisations had had a chance to comment on the audit reports. Can you tell me how many organisations have responded to KPMG’s determination, and how many—if any—of those 60 organisations have been cleared to continue to receive funding? Senator Herron—Since the completion of the Special Auditor process, ATSIC has taken responsibility for completing the evaluation of the organisations on which additional infor- mation was sought. This process is continuing. I am advised that the ATSIC board discussed the progress of that exercise last week, and a report is currently being prepared for me. Senator BOB COLLINS—Minister, the reason I asked the question—and I am sure you are aware of this—is that a number of organisations fiercely contested the conclusions of the Special Auditor in representations they made to me. They complained that they had not had an opportunity to respond to those negative audit reports. That was the purpose of the question. Mr Schnierer—Sixty organisations were identified as ‘not fit and proper’, and a number of others had various other qualifications placed on them by the Special Auditor. Each one of those organisations has the opportunity to deal through our normal processes with the breaches that we identify them to have made. You have to remember that the Special Auditor dealt largely with breaches of our own funding procedures manual. In the course of events, our staff in the various offices have to take this up with the individual organisation. That process has been going on across the country. Senator BOB COLLINS—When is that likely to be concluded? Mr Schnierer—That is an ongoing process, in the sense that some of the breaches that occur require what we call a rectification program—we have to have agreement between ATSIC and the organisation and then we monitor that. That is usually over a sustained period, so that we can make sure the organisation has come to grips with the thing. Some of this monitoring can go on for quite some time, and that is the process that is going on now with a lot of the organisations. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. Maybe we can get to this a little quicker by simply asking: how many of these organisations have been defunded? Mr Schnierer—Out of the 60, we are not funding 28—so far. Senator BOB COLLINS—Fine. As you would be aware, the Special Auditor noted in his final report that 64 organisations have an ATSIC controller or are currently under the control of an administrator appointed by the Registrar of Aboriginal Corporations—and, as you correctly said, there were other qualifications placed on other organisations. The reason I am chasing this is that, in terms of double counting—and we know, in terms of the statistics that were thrown around with such gay abandon, that double counting was identified in terms of how many organisations were in terrible trouble—I want to get some clarification this time about the one we chased last time. On my reading, the report did not make it clear whether the 64 organisations which had either ATSIC or registrar appointed controllers were included amongst the 60 that were issued with ‘not fit and proper’ determinations by the Special Auditor. Is it now possible to identify how many of the 64 organisations—if any—were included in the 60 that were placed in the ‘not fit and proper’ category by the Special Auditor?

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Mr Schnierer—How many of the organisations that have a grant controller or administrator in place? Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes. There were two separate identifications and, as I say—and I know you are aware of it and the minister acknowledged this in parliament—we already identified one major piece of double counting which was corrected. I am quite happy for you to take this question on notice. Sixty-four organisations were identified by the Special Auditor as having grant controllers that had been put in place either by ATSIC or by the registrar—that is, they were still running but they had an administrator in. There were 60 organisations identified by the Special Auditor as being not fit and proper. What I want to know is: were any of the 64 organisations with administrators counted in the 60 ‘not fit and proper’ organisations identified? Mr Schnierer—Can I put it this way: out of the 60 that were ‘not fit and proper’, 11 had a grant controller or administrator. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is probably the answer. So, on the face of it, it looks as if there were 11 of those organisations in both categories. Thank you. I am told that ATSIC was already fully aware that most if not all of the 60 organisations deemed ‘not fit and proper’ were organisations which had difficulties with their accountability requirements. Is that correct? Mr Schnierer—I cannot say for every organisation. If we had identified every breach that the Special Auditor had identified— Senator BOB COLLINS—I am sorry. I was not suggesting that you had. The question was a little broader than that. My advice was that most, if not all, of those 60 organisations deemed not fit and proper—I am not suggesting that you could possibly know in advance what the audit would reveal because that is the purpose of audits, of course; there is always something to find in there—were organisations that ATSIC was aware had some difficulties in complying with auditing requirements. Mr Schnierer—I would expect so, yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—As you would be aware, KPMG reported that feedback from discussions between its field team and ATSIC officers revealed that many organisations perceived the extent and content of the actually ATSIC-TSRA grant and loan accountability requirements as being a problem for them. That got some canvassing at the time. The special auditor, in the final report, cited the need for a program of focused management training within organisations seeking funding from ATSIC ‘to be a critical element in improving the skills and capability of people involved in this area and thus the accountability of indigenous organisations’. That is, he particularly noted that a lack of management skills rather than fraud, particularly in the smaller organisations, and the strict accountability guidelines imposed by ATSIC to be the major reasons for breach of grant conditions. What action is ATSIC taking or proposing to take in respect of this matter? Mr Myers—There were 12 recommendations made by the special auditor. Those recommendations were considered by the board at its last meeting. There is general support for the issues raised by the special auditor. They will now be subject to a report, both to the minister and to cabinet. I probably should not go into the detail of it, but the thing is moving forward. Senator BOB COLLINS—No, that answer satisfies me. And the recommendations are currently being considered by the board? Mr Myers—Yes.

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Senator BOB COLLINS—I think you said that ATSIC were actually completing the special auditor’s job basically after the Federal Court ruled that the special audit itself was illegal. So ATSIC have now take the carriage of completing that process? Mr Schnierer—Basically, yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—I understand that as a result of that exercise organisations found to be in the former so-called red category must have all their funding decisions now cleared at state level. Is that correct? Mr Schnierer—That is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—How does an organisation effectively move out of the so-called red category? I think it is now called category A. Mr Schnierer—We call it ‘category A—in serious breach’. As I was describing earlier, the organisation needs to work with our staff in terms of resolving the breach problems and, together with us, agree on a process to deal with each one of the breaches. It may take a long period of time for that to be consolidated and for us to be confident that the organisation is able to run its own affairs. Over a process of time, the agreement put in place is monitored and hopefully it will move out of that category. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is it correct that the Office of Evaluation and Audit completed 34 audits of commission operations in 1995-96? Mr Miller—I believe that is correct. Senator BOB COLLINS—In terms of the audits your own office completed in 1995-96, were any cases of fraud found? Mr Miller—No, and I reported that in the annual report. Senator BOB COLLINS—There has been some comment in the annual report about a noticeable change in the types of complaints referred to the office. Can you explain briefly what that change is? Mr Miller—The change has been an increasing number of allegations made about wrongdoing within the portfolio, in particular the elected arm. That has caused either the minister or the commission to refer matters to me for evaluation and audit, as they have the power to do under the act. Specific matters are referred to me. I think the annual report indicated that two years prior to 1995-96 we had none of those referred. Last year we had 25. They are quite big jobs, are quite sensitive and need very careful consideration. Senator BOB COLLINS—Are they currently under examination? Mr Miller—I am just talking off the top of my head now, but I think we have reported on all but one. Senator BOB COLLINS—They are completed? Mr Miller—Yes. Senator BOB COLLINS—Is it possible at this stage to report to the committee in broad terms the results of those investigations? The reason for the question again is obvious. I am aware that that has been a distinct shift in practice and what I am basically saying is: in how many of those cases were the assertions that were made that were responsible for the references in the first place found to be proved? Mr Miller—I think it is fair to say that in the majority of cases the assertions were found not to be correct. In a few cases they were found to be correct, and in the majority of those

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 180 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 5 March 1997 cases the recommendations were that people within ATSIC be reminded of their responsibili- ties, as the reviewing consultants found that there was cause to believe that they were not properly aware of their responsibilities. In a couple of cases they were found quite clearly not to be complying. Senator BOB COLLINS—But in the majority of the cases the allegations were in fact found to be without foundation. Mr Miller—That is right. Senator BOB COLLINS—Mr Miller, do you yourself, or does the office, have any conclusion about why there has been some upsurge in this particular type of reference? Is there any identifiable reason for it? Mr Miller—I think the elected arm of ATSIC have a very difficult task that they have to perform. They are required to represent their constituents and at the same time be administrators of the programs making decisions on them. I think, in my own view, those two roles are very hard and difficult ones for anyone to come to grips with. Conflict of interest is there every day at the board table and at the regional council table. As people in the community feel that they have been aggrieved, then they are increasingly making complaints and, of course, they have to be investigated. So I think it is the very nature of the organisation itself that is difficult. I will say that the commission has been very active in reminding the elected arm of the difficulties of conflict of interest and pecuniary interest, and I think as time is going on there is now a better understanding of those issues and how they can be very difficult for elected members. Senator BOB COLLINS—It is inherently a structural problem, isn’t it? Mr Miller—Well, I think it is, personally. It is not impossible to overcome, but it is a very difficult one. Bear in mind that, with a newly elected group of elected representatives, they need to become aware very quickly of their responsibilities, otherwise the problems will start to merge again. I want to say, though, Mr Chairman, that all of my references were not about the elected arm; I did not want to give that impression. There are other matters within the commission itself. But that is the emerging issue, conflict of interest and pecuniary interest. Senator BOB COLLINS—In the broader sense of the word, I guess what you are saying is that politics in its broadest sense has got some role to play in some of these references. Mr Miller—I think that is a fair enough statement. Senator BOB COLLINS—Thank you. I have only got one final question, Mr Chairman, you will be pleased to know. We have not done too badly. Is it correct that highly performing ATSIC regional offices have been moved from two-year to three-year audit cycles? Mr Miller—Yes, that is correct. I think I have mentioned in this place before that when we develop our audit annual plans we do it on a risk based assessment and we try to reward the better performing offices by moving them out a year. Senator BOB COLLINS—Which, of course, frees up your resources for concentrating on the ones that are not in that same risk category. Very sensible. Mr Miller—I might also say, Mr Chairman, that I have just recently engaged a consultant to review the operations of my audit area to make sure that we are up to best practice and doing things the best way. Senator BOB COLLINS—So you are being audited, are you, Mr Miller?

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Wednesday, 5 March 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 181

Mr Miller—Yes. I might say that the consultant has recommended a number of changes, and I think that he has done a pretty fair job in cutting me to pieces. Senator Herron—Of a relatively minor nature, I might say in your defence, Mr Miller. Senator BOB COLLINS—That is useful to have that information Mr Miller, thank you. I have concluded. CHAIR—Thank you for that, Senator Collins. That concludes the committee’s— Senator BOB COLLINS—Sorry, I will have one final little shot at the minister. CHAIR—It is 10 past 11 and we are all feeling very gracious at the moment— Senator BOB COLLINS—I just wanted to advise the minister of the reason I concentrated so much on the questions—I was saving this until last—about Third World countries and the minister’s pledge that there will be none of these Third World country conditions in Aboriginal communities by the year 2000. Senator Herron—Senator Collins, you will have to get the precise words. Senator BOB COLLINS—Yes, I have got them. I just wanted to point out to you, Minister, that the reason I asserted this is that no less an authority than your leader, the Prime Minister of Australia, said— Senator HERRON—Yes, he used the phrase too, I will have to educate him. Senator BOB COLLINS—He said, in 1995, in a major headland statement—standing on the headland— Senator Herron—It is a common misconception. Senator BOB COLLINS—He said: The fact that so many indigenous Australians continue to experience living conditions which are akin to those of a Third World country is a matter of national shame. Could I just point out the total discrepancy between your position on this and his. Senator Herron—Yes, I will have to educate him, Senator Collins, he is as ignorant as you are. Senator BOB COLLINS—Good luck, Dr Herron—sorry, Minister. CHAIR—That concludes the committee’s consideration of ATSIC. I thank you very much, Minister, and the officers of the commission for the way in which tonight’s proceedings have been conducted. I declare the meeting closed. Committee adjourned at 11.11 p.m.

FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION