COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SENATE Official Hansard

WEDNESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 1996

THIRTY-EIGHTH PARLIAMENT FIRST SESSION—FIRST PERIOD

BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA CONTENTS

WEDNESDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER

Questions Without Notice— Superannuation ...... 3545 Hindmarsh Island ...... 3546 Minister for Small Business and Consumer Affairs ...... 3548 Telecommunications ...... 3548 Papua New Guinea ...... 3550 Australia Post ...... 3550 Ethanol ...... 3551 Cape Murat ...... 3552 Australia Television ...... 3553 Ranger Uranium Mine ...... 3554 Unit Trusts ...... 3555 Ethanol ...... 3555 Aviation: Emergency Locator Beacons ...... 3557 Employees’ Share Scheme ...... 3558 Minister for Small Business and Consumer Affairs ...... 3559 Telstra ...... 3560 Personal Explanations ...... 3560 Questions Without Notice— Ethanol ...... 3561 Hospital Funding ...... 3567 Petitions— Higher Education Contribution Scheme ...... 3568 Higher Education Contribution Scheme ...... 3568 Child Care ...... 3568 Non-conforming Petitions ...... 3568 Notices of Motion— Federal Government Borrowings ...... 3569 Order of Business— BHP Petroleum ...... 3569 Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee .... 3569 Superannuation Committee ...... 3569 Committees— Environment, Recreation, Communications and the Arts Legislation Committee—Extension of Time ...... 3569 Dalai Lama ...... 3569 Committees— Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee—Reference ...... 3570 Tibet ...... 3570 Committees— Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee—Report ...... 3570 Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee—Report . . 3570 Economics Legislation Committee—Report ...... 3570 Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee—Report ...... 3571 Primary Industries and Energy Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 2) 1996— First Reading ...... 3571 Second Reading ...... 3571 Assent to Laws ...... 3572 Committees— Membership ...... 3572 Budget 1996-97— Consideration of Appropriation Bills by Legislation Committees— Meetings ...... 3573 Adjournment— Ranger Uranium Mine ...... 3573 Documents— Tabling ...... 3575 Indexed Lists of Files ...... 3575 CONTENTS—continued

Questions On Notice— Bullbars—(Question No. 92) ...... 3576 Australian Broadcasting Corporation Publication 24 Hours— (Question No. 172) ...... 3576 Defence Exports—(Question No. 173) ...... 3577 SENATE 3545

Wednesday, 18 September 1996 Senator Alston—Madam President, on a point of order: I simply draw attention to the fact that a fair degree of latitude is involved The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. in points of order. But we have just had a Margaret Reid) took the chair at 9.30 a.m., naked example of a total disregard of the and read prayers. rules that had absolutely nothing to do with what preceded it. It was simply a cheap QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE debating point. It can be made at any other time and it should not be made now—and Superannuation you should not allow that sort of abuse of Senator SHERRY—My question is direct- question time to continue. ed to the Assistant Treasurer in respect of the The PRESIDENT—Senator Short has administrative complexities of the govern- spoken for less than one minute to this point ment’s new 15 per cent superannuation tax. and has the opportunity to develop an answer. Are you aware of the trenchant criticisms of: Senator SHORT—I preface my answer to Professor David Knox, former Liberal super- Senator Sherry by asking the Labor Party, annuation adviser and currently member of through you, whether it really does want the government’s actuarial advisory com- greater fairness in the superannuation system mittee; Mr Bruce Cook, chairman of William in this country. If it does, then it would M. Mercer; Mr Brian Bissacker of Bankers support the thrust of the policy decision. Trust; Mr Emery Feyzeny of KPMG and your own Liberal Senate colleague Senator John Senator Faulkner—You are obligated to Watson on the superannuation tax? When will answer the question. Answer the question. you acknowledge the broad community Senator SHORT—You don’t like hearing concerns on this issue? Will you support the truth, Senator Faulkner, because truth is referral to the Senate committee on superan- a word that is pretty out of your vocabulary nuation with a report back date by 30 Novem- and always has been. ber? Opposition senators interjecting— Senator SHORT—The one thing that this The PRESIDENT—Senator Short, just question shows, quite clearly, is that the wait, please. It is impossible to hear with so opposition is not prepared to join the govern- much noise in the chamber. ment in seeking a fairer superannuation Senator SHORT—If Labor took the same system for all Australians. That is the nub of starting point as us in wanting greater fairness what this question is all about. Is the Austral- and, therefore, really supporting the surcharge ian Labor Party really fair dinkum about that we have proposed in the budget—which supporting the surcharge that we have im- Senator Sherry, I think, and Mr Beazley have posed in the budget? Mr Beazley says one said they do support—then it would be logical thing and Senator Sherry says another thing. to wait until the legislation is introduced into Someone says, ‘We will refer it to a commit- the parliament after the extensive consulta- tee.’ Others say, ‘We do not need to do so— tions that are going on at the moment. Senator Sherry—Madam President, on a Senator Sherry well knows that an actuarial point of order— advisory committee is looking at these issues Senator SHORT—He can’t take it. He has in relation to defined benefit funds and absolutely bogged himself down. unfunded schemes. He knows that the govern- ment has established a task force which Senator Sherry—For the first time we comprises representatives of the ISC, the would like an answer from Senator Short to ATO, Treasury and industry to look at these a specific question. When will he answer this issues. He knows that extensive consultations question? are going on, including the involvement of Senator Faulkner—Chance your arm, you Professor David Knox, and we are very hopeless individual. pleased that he is doing that; he is approach- 3546 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 ing it in a very constructive way. Consulta- Senator Sherry does not comprehend the tions are going on. difference between asking a question in the The logical, systematic, due process way to second person or the third person. That is proceed with this would be to let those what it is all about. He ought to know the consultations proceed and, as a result, have distinction. Madam President, you should not the legislation drafted and presented to parlia- allow him to continue in ignorance. If he is ment. Then the parliament, through its com- going to address questions through the chair, mittee systems, can have every opportunity to there is a proper form to be followed, and it look at the legislation. is very unfortunate that after all these years he still has not got the vaguest idea. But, quite frankly, it is absolutely ridiculous to say before that legislation is drafted, before The PRESIDENT—Order! Whenever the the consultations have concluded—we are word ‘you’ is used, it is apparent that the only halfway through the consultations— question or answer is not being directed ‘Let’s go and look at all the fine detail of this through the chair. They should be. Have you issue’ before you have the detail to consider. completed your question, Senator Sherry? It casts very grave doubts on the real motives Senator Sherry—Yes, Madam President. of the Labor Party on this issue. Senator SHORT—Madam President, the Senator SHERRY—A supplementary. government is not saying that the details of Senator, you still refuse to acknowledge the the implementation complexities should not broad community concerns. be considered at all by a committee. What we Senator Alston—Put your question through are saying—and we are really prejudging the the chair. debate that is to come up a little later—is that Senator SHERRY—I take it from your until the consultations have taken place, until answer that you do not want this matter legislation has been drafted and brought into referred to the Senate committee. Therefore, this parliament so one can see the details, do you agree with Senator John Watson— then it is premature to refer such a matter of The PRESIDENT—Senator Sherry, your administration to a committee. question should be addressed through the What are you going to do when the legisla- chair. tion comes in—by the end of the year, hope- Senator SHERRY—Do you agree with fully? Are you going to do it again and again Senator John Watson’s support on 11 Septem- and again? It is quite deliberate time wasting ber at a meeting of the Senate select commit- on the part of the Labor Party in an attempt, tee in referring this matter to that committee? I think, to thwart the introduction of a major Senator Alston—Could I take a point of change to the superannuation system that will order, Madam President? It is very sad that make superannuation fairer and more equi- Senator Sherry, who has now been here for table for all Australians. some years—he is apparently the Deputy Hindmarsh Island Leader of the Opposition in the Senate—still does not understand the requirement that Senator ELLISON—Thank you, Madam questions should be addressed through the President. Through you, I ask the Minister for chair. Now what that— Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs, Senator Herron: Minister, in light of yester- Senator Sherry—I am doing that. day’s announcement that the government Senator Alston—But you don’t! You were plans to legislate to allow construction of the told three times that you ought to ask the Hindmarsh Island bridge to proceed, can you question in the third person. outline the reasons why the government has Senator Sherry—You aren’t addressing the taken this decision— chair! Senator Robert Ray—Could I take a point Senator Alston—I am making my remarks of order, Madam President? Senator Ellison through the chair. I am making the point that used the word ‘you’ that you just ruled out—I Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3547 think very foolishly, Madam President. Will in various courts. Of the four inquiries, three, you rule him out? Senator Ellison, have found that the bridge Senator ELLISON—On the point of order, should go ahead, and the one that found the Madam President, if Senator Ray had listened, area should be protected was overturned on I prefaced my comment by ‘Through you, appeal. Madam President’— When the previous government boxed Senator Robert Ray—I know. Silly ruling. themselves into a corner and proceeded, over Senator ELLISON—and I believe that 2½ years, to pour millions of dollars of distinguishes what Madam President has said, taxpayers’ money into efforts to justify their Senator Ray. original decision to oppose the bridge, and after the High Court overturned the latest The PRESIDENT—No, it does not. In fact inquiry by Justice Jane Mathews, I was faced it does not, and twice previously I have called with the prospect of having to order yet government ministers when answering ques- another inquiry and, at the end of that, we tions on this point. It is the way in which you could well face further legal appeals. The refer also to other people. fiasco has gone on far enough. You have Senator Robert Ray—Madam President, made yourselves— on the point of order: I think Senator Ellison’s The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Herron. question is totally in order. The use of the word ‘you’ to a minister has been used here Senator Faulkner—A point of order! ever since this chamber started. It is, I guess, Senator HERRON—the laughing stock of when the questioner is only just looking at the the Australian public, and we are not going to minister, never referring to you, then you do that. could take action. But, if you think about that ruling you have made, it is just not practical. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Herron. The PRESIDENT—It was an observation Senator Faulkner—Could I take a point of I made about the use of the word ‘you’, and order, Madam President? My point of order it frequently refers to the fact that somebody is this: we have had a sanctimonious point of is not directing their remarks through the order from Senator Alston about comments chair and referring to people personally. being directed through the chair. I ask you to Senator ELLISON—In light of yesterday’s make a consistent ruling and rule that Senator announcement that the government plans to Herron’s comments then were out of order, legislate to allow the construction of the and direct him to make his comments through Hindmarsh Island bridge to continue, can the the chair. minister outline the reasons why the govern- The PRESIDENT—Of course. I had called ment has taken this decision, and can he him to order before you stood up, Senator detail to the Senate the costs involved since Faulkner. I had called ‘order’ before you the previous Labor government first took stood up. I agree with you entirely, and the action to stop work on the Hindmarsh Island remarks should not be addressed in that bridge? fashion. Senator HERRON—Thank you, Senator Senator HERRON—Madam President, this Ellison, for that question. The government has fiasco has gone on far enough. taken the view that, after complete bungling and incompetence by the previous govern- Senator Faulkner—So don’t repeat it! ment, this matter has gone on for long en- Senator HERRON—I will repeat it. The ough. The sad fact is that we have had four opposition have made themselves the laughing state and federal inquiries costing in excess of stock of the Australian public. We have $3 million, the latest by Justice Jane Mathews inherited this mess from the Labor Party, and costing over $1 million. In addition, it is we plan to clean it up. We plan to do that by estimated that well over $1 million has been introducing legislation that will deal specifi- spent on associated legal appeals and actions cally and solely with Hindmarsh Island. 3548 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

The Labor Party has two choices—either purpose and benefits to the Australian com- accept that they made a mess of this and munity and small business of the recent trip support our legislation to clean that mess up, to the Philippines by the Minister for Small or reject the legislation which will force a Business and Consumer Affairs, Mr Prosser? fifth inquiry, perhaps costing another million Through you, Madam President, could the dollars of taxpayers’ money. And, if they do minister also comment on the reports that the reject it, Madam President, I suggest that the Philippines government was so upset by Mr Labor Party should put up the money for the Prosser’s repeated failure to attend working next inquiry because the Australian public is sessions of the APEC small and medium not prepared to do it. Madam President, I enterprises ministerial meeting that it con- suggest the Labor Party should put up the sidered lodging a diplomatic protest, and that money. Or do we put it on the Beazley such action was averted only by the profes- Bankcard? We would have yet another fiasco sionalism of the officers accompanying him? if it goes onto the Beazley bankcard because Senator PARER—I am aware of the fact that is where it will have to come from that my colleague Minister Prosser did attend because the Australian public is not prepared the APEC meeting in the Philippines. I have to do that. no idea of the cost. It was an APEC meeting. Senator Faulkner—Come on, eyes down. I have no idea of the comments that have The PRESIDENT—Order! been made by Senator Cook. I will refer them to the minister and come back to him. Senator HERRON—Do senators oppos- ite—well, they don’t want to do a U-turn— Senator COOK—Madam President, in view of that answer, as a supplementary, can Senator Faulkner—On a point of order, the minister provide the Senate with full Madam President: I don’t think that Senator details of Minister Prosser’s program, includ- Herron has been listening to your ruling ing details as to which conference sessions he because he is straying again. He is not ad- actually attended and what other— dressing his remarks through the chair. Senator Faulkner—If any— The PRESIDENT—Senator Herron, you should direct your remarks through the chair Senator COOK—If any; what other meet- and not directly to opposition senators. ings, if any, he attended; what was discussed at them; and the details of the cost of this Senator HERRON—Madam President, trip? they are a bit touchy on the other side this morning because I think the facts are coming Senator PARER—Yes. home to roost on them after years of dilly- Telecommunications dallying with this issue. Now they want the taxpayer to fork out more money in relation Senator PATTERSON—My question is to the folly that has been pursued over a directed to the Minister for Communications number of years by the previous government. and the Arts. In view of the minister’s state- They are between a rock and a hard place and ments that, industry wide, there will be many they ought to wake up to that. If they want new jobs created in the telecommunications another inquiry, the ALP should put up the area despite the loss of jobs in Telstra over money for that inquiry, rather than the Aus- the next few years, can the minister provide tralian taxpayer. concrete examples of job creation in this industry? Minister for Small Business and Senator ALSTON—Yes, there are many Consumer Affairs examples. United Telecommunications, for Senator COOK—Madam President, example, which aims to be Australia’s largest through you, I address a question to Senator Telstra Mobilenet service provider, currently Parer representing the Minister for Small has a national operations centre with some Business and Consumer Affairs. Could the 200 staff. They expect to increase that by 300 minister please inform the Senate of the cost, to 500 staff in the near future. The regional Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3549 pay TV company, Austar—which has been These developments indicate the pattern of rolling out a combined wireless satellite and employment growth and technological ad- cable television network across regional New vance across regional Australia which should South Wales, Queensland, Victoria, South lay to rest fears about unemployment and Australia and the Northern Territory—has steam age technology in the less urbanised already established 23 wireless cable systems areas of Australia. All of this goes to confirm in larger regional centres and aims to expand the words of the Managing Director of the that— Australian Telecommunications Users Group, Senator Carr—Twenty-three! Twenty-three Mr Allan Horsley, who told the Senate in- out of 22,000! quiry: The industry is desperately short of people. We Senator ALSTON—Quite right. I am cannot find them. We put ads in the paper and our equally impressed by the fact that you are members are looking for people and cannot find impressed too. It plans to expand that to 40 them. Our experience has been that there is sub- such systems by the end of next year. It has stantial demand for employment and, if as a result also introduced satellite TV coverage across of any process this or just management changes in regional New South Wales, Queensland, Telstra result in fewer employees, those employees will pick up work without a doubt outside. It is not Victoria and South Australia. This has meant overstating the case to say that demand is enor- 600 new jobs throughout regional Australia, mous. with another 200 people to be employed before the end of this year. In these two Senator PATTERSON—I have a supple- companies alone, we have more than 1,000 mentary question, Madam President. Given new jobs. that job losses have been occurring for some years in Telstra, can the minister explain why The high level of employment growth in the it has suddenly become an issue now? private telecommunications sector is reflected Senator ALSTON—It is absolutely true— in the overall figures. The Telecommunica- tions Industry Development Authority has Senator Carr—It is not true. published figures which show that the number Senator ALSTON—It is unfortunate that of employees in the equipment suppliers and Senator Carr is so ignorant of the facts of this service provider sector of the industry alone matter that he is not aware that, between 1991 has increased by just short of 20,000 in the and 1994, 25,000 jobs were lost inside two years from December 1993. That is up 30 Telstra. per cent. Employment growth in the com- Senator Carr—What about last year? munications sector overall is phenomenal— 35,000 new jobs since 1993. Of course, Senator ALSTON—Do not change the during that period Telstra was downsizing. subject. I am just telling you the facts of the matter. I would have thought that you would Telstra’s own activities in cable roll-out and understand that. service expansion are also creating new jobs and new businesses across Australia. Some This is a gross exercise in hypocritical 1,200 jobs were created in Queensland alone double standards because, during that period during 1994-95. These examples are only a of three years, unemployment was 10.3, 10.5, taste of what is to come. Paynet Telecom- 11 per cent and 10.6. In other words, it was munications plans to roll out cable in Cairns much higher than it is now. Something in the and, hopefully, Townsville. Neighbourhood order of 850,000 to 950,000 people were Cable plans to offer video on demand and unemployed, with not one squawk from the other services to a regional community south- Labor Party, not one squawk from others east of Melbourne. Northgate Communica- about it, no industrial disruption. tions proposes to install a network in the Yet what do we have now? We have all Ballarat area offering pay TV and other this hypocritical hand wringing. We only have services. Austar is apparently interested in to look at the remarks of the telecommuni- Tasmania, although at this time East Coast cations public sector union on this subject Television has the regional rights. when they said: 3550 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

It has only been after the election of a government edly gives it an unfair advantage over the committed to privatisation that speculation started. private sector. Does the government intend (Time expired) to privatise all or any section of Australia Post? Would the government be prepared to Papua New Guinea direct Australia Post to borrow money it does Senator COONEY—My question is direct- not need? Would the government agree to ed to the Minister representing the Minister abolish the uniform letter right and allow the for Defence, Senator Newman. The question rate for postage to set according to the cost of is: at the PNG ministerial forum, did the PNG delivery? defence minister indicate an implementation Senator ALSTON—There is no intention program for the Defence white paper pub- to change the current arrangements, particular- lished last year? Did the ministers agree that ly in relation to the uniform service across such implementation would alter the nature of Australia and, indeed, the standard postal the Australian Defence cooperation program delivery arrangements. with PNG? Did Australia accede to the PNG Senator Kernot—Well done! minister’s public avowals that Australia’s DCP should be reviewed? Who is to conduct Senator ALSTON—But what is important such a review and when will the results be to remember is this: on 15 November 1993, known? Mr Beddall, who was then the communica- tions minister— Senator NEWMAN—Of course, our relationship with Papua New Guinea has been Senator Kernot—Oh, here we go. a longstanding one and of great importance to Senator ALSTON—Come on, just a both countries. The defence forces of both moment. Don’t bury your heads in the sand countries have had a very strong relationship and somehow pretend that everything is over the years and many Papua New Guinea perfect. people have been trained by the Australian Senator Kernot—Oh, dear! Defence Force. Last week officials from both countries met, as well as did the ministers. I Senator ALSTON—All I am telling you will obtain the details of the answer to the is— senator’s question. The PRESIDENT—Order! Senator Alston, direct your remarks through the chair. Senator COONEY—I thank through you, Madam President, the minister for her answer Opposition senators—Through the chair! to that. I wonder whether the minister would Through the chair! be able have answers available before pro- Senator ALSTON—Madam President, I gram 5 in estimates, so we can follow it up am simply at pains to point out that the there. previous administration committed themselves Senator NEWMAN—As we had defence to a review and, on 28 June this year, the estimates for some hours yesterday, Senator, Treasurer similarly announced that we would and we only got to the end of program 2, I be conducting a review of Australia Post am sure you have quite a while before you during this financial year. Mr Crean himself need your answer but, of course, I will get it welcomed that and said that, as long as it was for you. a given in any such review that the level and quality of services were maintained and that Australia Post people in regional and rural areas were prop- Senator ALLISON—My question is erly looked after, there was a capacity to directed to the Minister for Communications expose Australia Post to more competition. and the Arts, Senator Alston. According to That is indeed what Mr Beddall had said reports in the media recently, the Productivity when he made his original announcement. Commission has argued that Australia Post What ought to happen is that the fear card should be required to take on more debt should not be played. You should not simply because its current low level of debt suppos- run around saying the sky is going to fall in Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3551 if you have even a review to try to introduce interested and proved that. He said it himself! more competition. He told the Australian. It is all there. I understand Senator Allison’s point about Senator Faulkner—Through the chair. the levels of debt. I have not read any Pro- Senator ALSTON—I do not need to say it ductivity Commission report to that effect. It through the chair. I am talking in the third is certainly not something that is before us at person. He, Senator Schacht, made it very the moment. If people want to make that sort clear that he was not interested in policy of an argument, or indeed you want to make outcomes; he was not interested in pure a counter-argument in the course of that performance; he was not interested in the review, then it will be perfectly open to you minutiae of administration, even though he to do so. But I think your starting point ought never came within a bull’s roar of it. He was to be that you should be interested in ensuring simply interested in pure politics. Now I that services are not only maintained at the think, Madam President, that we can expect highest level but be delivered as efficiently as more of that from the Australian Democrats. possible. I hope that in due course they will address the Senator Kernot—That is what you said issues featured. (Time expired) about Telstra. Senator ALLISON—I ask a supplementary Senator ALSTON—Indeed, indeed. It is question, Madam President. If the outcome of just a pity that you will not join me in trying that review that the minister has told us about to achieve world’s best practice instead of is a recommendation to privatise part or the settling for mediocrity. It is very unfortunate whole of Australia Post, will the government that some people are prepared to accept attempt to do so? second best in this game when you do have Senator ALSTON—As you probably the capacity to achieve world’s best practice, know, one of the things around this place is when you do have the capacity to ensure that that hypothetical questions do not bear on you can maintain the quality of service, lower government policy, so it is simply not a prices, better range of products—all of the question to be answered at this time. But let things that consumers are entitled to, all of me say this: the issue of greater competition the things that can be protected in legisla- should not be confused with the issue of tion—and at the same time ensure greater privatisation in this instance. It may well be efficiencies. that there will be a decision to consider As you know, Australia Post has been increased competition in the course of that downsizing also, has been becoming much review. There may well be submissions to more commercial in recent years. I think that effect. That is a completely separate about 55 per cent of its total revenue now issue. I am not aware of any suggestions of comes from competitive activities and it is privatisation of Australia Post. Senator Allison continuing to undergo significant growth. It seems to think they are floating around, but can therefore do that— I have not read them from anyone. It seems to me that is an entirely academic proposition Senator Kernot—In positive ownership. at the present time. If what we are talking Senator ALSTON—If anyone wants to put about is greater competition, greater efficiency in a submission about any issues that might and better results for consumers, then I hope result in greater efficiency, you are welcome that that is the sort of thing that the opposi- to do so. I am simply putting the proposition tion and the Australian Democrats will be to you that you will have a review in due supporting. course. You will be able to explore all of those issues. In due course, Madam President, Ethanol I hope that there will be an acknowledgment Senator O’BRIEN—My question is direct- on all sides of the chamber, except for poor ed to the Minister for Resources and Energy. old Senator Schacht who simply wants to play I refer to the government’s decision an- the game of pure politics and clearly is not nounced in the 1996-97 budget to end the $25 3552 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 million ethanol bounty scheme. What was the not we had stringent budgetary measures, basis of the minister’s claim that the use and which we did have in this particular instance, production of fuel ethanol was not cost- no sensible person would continue that pro- effective? Where exactly does the Bureau of ject. Resource Sciences actually say, as the minister claims, that the scheme does nothing What was the level of the subsidy? The cost to improve the environment? of producing ethanol was 70c per litre. The cost of producing petrol is 23c per litre. The Senator PARER—Let me give a bit of idea was that it was to be for a limited period, history for the new senator. The agreement to at which time the industry would stand on its subsidise ethanol was a shady deal made by own feet. It was clearly obvious that the the Democrats and the former government to industry could not stand on its own feet and get their budget through in 1993. It was one the continuance of the bounty could not be of those decisions made without a lot of justified under any circumstances. A study research being done—I can see former senior was done by the Bureau of Resource Sci- ministers nodding on the other side—that ences, ABARE and the department. The net proved to be an abject failure. The idea was outcome of that study was to not continue the that, if we could subsidise ethanol, this would ethanol bounty scheme. somehow replace other liquid fuels. Let me also say that this does not mean we Senator Schacht—Make sure it doesn’t have walked away from ethanol as being a contradict what Hilly said last night. potential substitute down the track, but we Senator Hill—I will listen carefully. have a long way to go. We are continuing the The PRESIDENT—Order! Order! research program. We have kept money in the budget for the woody waste or lignocellulosic Senator PARER—Madam President, it is plant, as it is called. I think it is $2 million. very hard for me to answer with the rabble on That must be matched by the New South the other side. This is a serious question and Wales government and by industry. But by no it deserves a serious answer. The idea was means have we walked away from it. It was that if you subsidised the production of just a silly program. It was done overnight ethanol you would somehow replace liquid because of a deal made between the then fuels. It goes along the theory of what hap- Labor government and the Democrats to pass pened in Brazil. In Brazil for many years, the budget. It was a matter of commonsense because of the absence of fossil fuels, the that we had no option but to drop the bounty. subsidies were given to ethanol and some- thing like 98 per cent of all new motorcars Cape Murat were made to go on ethanol. Even that coun- try found it could not continue that and the Senator MARGETTS—My question is percentage of cars now made to run on addressed to the Minister for the Environ- ethanol in Brazil is two per cent. ment. Is the minister aware of an application or expression of interest by Victoria Petro- Senator Bob Collins—Quote the BRS. leum or any other company to carry out oil Senator PARER—‘Quote the BRS,’ and gas exploration on Commonwealth owned Senator Bob Collins says. The people who land at Point Murat near Cape Range in the took up the ethanol bounty were two com- north-west of Western Australia in October or panies. One was CSR, which had been mak- November of this year? Given the importance ing ethanol at Sarina, south of Mackay, since of the natural heritage values of the Cape 1927. The other one was at Manildra, where Range National Park, the nearby Ningaloo ethanol is produced as a by-product from the Marine Park and the occurrence of unique production of gluten from wheat. The effect underground stygofauna, or troglodytes, in the of this was that from all aspects—from an area, will the minister require an environ- environmental perspective, from a cost per- mental impact assessment before any approval spective and from many other perspectives—it to carry out oil or gas exploration in this area could not continue to be justified. Whether or is granted? If not, why not? Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3553

Senator HILL—I do not personally know have any idea of who is watching. Against a lot about this matter. I gather that my that background, it makes it very difficult for department has some information on it at this advertisers to sign up in any other than preliminary stage. I think the facts are pretty nominal amounts. much as Senator Margetts outlined. It has not Senator Bob Collins—Have you seen the been designated at this stage. But, now that survey results? I have got a copy. you have brought it to my attention, I will make some inquiries and ensure that the Senator ALSTON—What we announced appropriate course of action is followed. on 16 July was that the government would ask the ABC to explore the possibility of Australia Television delivering more efficiently the services cur- Senator HOGG—My question, through rently being provided by Australia Television. you, Madam President, is directed to the We also announced that we would discuss Minister for Communications and the Arts. I with the ABC board the scope for ensuring refer to the comments on Monday by the the maintenance of ABC program content on ABC Chairman, Mr Donald McDonald, Australia Television, particularly news and supporting Australia Television International current affairs, while tendering the operation Pty Ltd, ATV. Minister, is it a fact that you of the service to the commercial sector. recently wrote to the ABC board stating that Senator Bob Collins—Translated into ATV should be sold to commercial interests? English, that means you are going to get rid Whose view on the ownership of ATV will of it. prevail, yours or that of Mr McDonald’s? Hasn’t the statement of your views pre- Senator ALSTON—If you do not under- empted the Mansfield inquiry process? What stand English, I am afraid I cannot help you. impact would the sale of ATV to commercial I would have thought those words are perfect- interests have on the provision of a television ly plain. As a result of that, we will have satellite service to the Asia-Pacific region? further discussion with the ABC about how we can best progress what I think is a very Senator ALSTON—There has been a long sensible new approach to ensuring that we do history of difficulty with ATV in terms of not simply have the blinkered attitude that raising sufficient funds from sponsorship. somehow the only way to assist a service of Indeed, we have been very supportive of it as this nature is to simply pour more and more a concept because it does make sense to try government dollars into it. to ensure that we do have a voice in the region and I think ATV has a very important The Labor Party always took the view that role to play, particularly where our news and funding should come from outside sources. current affairs are very well regarded. None- Even though it is a charter activity, it was theless, you will recall that only towards the necessary for it to garner funds from other end of last year, I think, the then Labor than the taxpayer. Indeed, even when those government decided to allocate in the order of requests were being made for additional funds an additional $18 million for Australia Televi- and you decided to provide I think $18.6 sion over a three-year period in recognition of million, you made it clear that you expected the fact that it still was not achieving its the ABC to continue to rely on sponsorship sponsorship target. and to do its very best to expand the market There had been a series of internal reviews audience in that regard. That is still a continu- of the progress of ATV and I think a recogni- ing problem. It is still an approach that we tion that it was still going to experience think is worth pursuing. That is why we will difficulty in identifying sponsors. Indeed, one be having discussions with the ABC to ensure of the major problems is that sensible market we can achieve the best possible outcome. research surveys simply cannot be conducted Senator HOGG—Madam President, I ask to determine the extent of an audience, be- a supplementary question. So, Minister, why cause it is not a closed subscription system— didn’t you wait for the results of the Mans- it is open—and that means we really do not field inquiry rather than pre-empt it? 3554 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

Senator ALSTON—It was not a term of Opposition senators—Oh! reference of the Mansfield inquiry. Senator Alston—You have probably Senator Robert Ray—Why not? forgotten it. Senator ALSTON—We do not have to ask Senator VANSTONE—Probably forgotten anyone who is conducting a review to look at it—and Senator Bob Collins on a number of everything that you might think might be a occasions. The point I am making to you is passing interest. We are able to make deci- that it is simply unreasonable to expect both sions in some areas. We are also able to the question and the answer to go through the require advice from other areas. We are also chair if at the same time you allow consistent able to seek a review in other areas. We interjections from the other side which invite simply made the decision in relation to a one-to-one response. ATV— The PRESIDENT—Interjections are dis- Senator Carr—What about political inter- orderly in any event. ference with the ABC? Ranger Uranium Mine Senator ALSTON—If we want to know all about political interference, there is only one Senator FERRIS—My question is ad- party that we need to turn to in this cham- dressed to the Minister for Resources and ber—the ultimate deal makers, the ultimate Energy. Could the minister please advise the fixers, the ultimate heavies. Senate of the level of background radiation at the Ranger uranium mine in the Northern Opposition senators interjecting— Territory? Can the minister also please assure The PRESIDENT—Order! the Senate that workers at the Ranger mine Senator ALSTON—You ought to be and those tourists who visit the area are in no ashamed of yourselves about the way that danger? Keating used to carry on. Whenever he was Senator Bob Collins—And is it safe to get dissatisfied with anything, he rang them up out of the bus? And, if you didn’t get out of and thumped them, didn’t he. He would the bus, why did you go there? always kick them to death. That was the The PRESIDENT—Order! political solution to your problems— Opposition senators interjecting— Senator PARER—I thank Senator Ferris for that question and also congratulate her on Senator ALSTON—To intimidate. (Time asking her first question in the chamber. expired) Senators will be aware that Ranger is one of Senator Vanstone—Madam President, I the two operating mines under Labor’s foolish raise a point of order. I wish to draw to your three-mine policy. From the Labor Party’s attention that, whilst I am quite supportive of point of view, the old, ridiculous story was your apparent decision to try to enforce the that uranium from Ranger and Olympic Dam standing orders to the extent that people was good uranium but any other uranium was speaking should address their remarks through bad uranium. How stupid can you be? the chair, I think if you are going to do that Senators will be aware that background you will have to consider insisting that inter- levels of radiation at Ranger are insignificant jections follow the same procedure. It is in comparison with radiation levels which we possible, with a modicum of intellect—even all encounter every day. The total radiation the limited amount found on the other side— exposure of project workers is monitored to to interject through the chair. I took the ensure that radiation exposure is within opportunity during Senator Alston’s answer to international agreed limits. These are about to listen to Senator Carr, who on at least three change from 50 millisieverts to 20 millisie- occasions interjected by saying ‘you this’ and verts— ‘you that’, Senator Bolkus, another senator whose name I was not quick enough to write Opposition senators interjecting— down— The PRESIDENT—Order! Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3555

Senator PARER—Obviously the Labor and Canberra but to do so she would have to Party are not interested in this. The whole avoid bitumen roads and granite outcrops to two-mine policy is embarrassing to them, but avoid being exposed to radiation levels they should at least be interested in the similar to or greater than she would have been radiation levels that apply to workers and to exposed to at Ranger. (Time expired) people who visit the mine. Currently the Senator FERRIS—Madam President, I ask international level is 50 millisieverts, which a supplementary question. Could the Minister is going to reduce to 20 over the next five for Resources and Energy please inform the years. The average level at Ranger is five parliament whether any further expenditure millisieverts in open working areas and one was incurred by Senator Margetts during that millisievert in office areas. Caution, of course, visit? must always be exercised with exit rays of radioactive materials. It is an area that I spent Senator PARER—The only other informa- ten years of my working life in. Let me say tion I have is that Senator Margetts did the that X-rays and radioactive materials have same thing when she went to ANSTO at been a great benefit to the community at Lucas Heights. One wonders why she again large. There are some 55 staff of the Office put the taxpayer to the trouble of doing that. of the Supervising Scientist and 30 ERA staff I have no particular problem with Senator involved in radiation and environmental Margetts stating her view on nuclear power. monitoring at Ranger. She is the one, of course, who initiated this Senate inquiry that is going on right now. Visitors to Ranger face no potential hazard That is her prerogative. But in this particular from radiation exposure. The total radiation instance she either pulled a stunt, which was exposure to members of the Senate select at great expense to the taxpayers of Australia, committee on uranium during their visit to or she was serious about it, in which case Ranger was two to five microsieverts. Of the there is some sort of paranoia there that I four members of the committee, all except cannot help her with. one were briefed at the site. Where was Senator Margetts, the most vocal anti-uranium Unit Trusts advocate in the Senate? She, with the rest of Senator CONROY—My question is ad- the committee flew all the way to Darwin, dressed to the Assistant Treasurer. Has the then from Darwin to Ranger and then all the Minister’s attention been drawn to problems way back again and would not get out of the in investor protection for unit trusts? What is bus. To use her own words, as reported in the the government’s view as to the most appro- Northern Territory News, she felt more priate regulation of the interests of investors? comfortable in the vehicle. She is reported to Is the minister aware of the divergent views have said, ‘If there is a problem with radi- on this subject of those in the investment ation, dust is not very healthy.’ funds industry? If Senator Margetts intended to sit in the Senator SHORT—I have noted some of bus and if she has genuine concerns, a num- those reports, through you, Madam President, ber of questions are raised. Why did she cost to Senator Conroy. We are having a look at the taxpayers of Australia the return trips to them and I will come back to you with any Darwin and Darwin to Ranger? Why did she response. It is a complicated and technical insist that taxpayers buy her a dose meter issue, as I think you are aware, but we will which she then did not trust and, of course, get you a response. would have been of little use in the bus, anyway. If Senator Margetts is serious, she Ethanol might like to know that on her weekly flights Senator LEES—My question is addressed between Canberra and Perth she receives 13 to the Minister for Resources and Energy. It microsieverts as compared with the two to is a follow-up question on ethanol after a three she would have received at Ranger. She very, shall we say, selectively misleading could, of course, go by road between Perth answer to Senator O’Brien. Minister, is it not 3556 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 correct that on the issue of being competitive, oped by some independent suppliers, basically robust and ecologically sustainable—and I in New South Wales. refer you to this unsourced document you tabled in this place—is it not the fact that Senator Lees—But isn’t it a fact that the ABARE never conducted a current or future oil industry would not cooperate? analysis of ethanol production; ABARE Senator PARER—Senator Lees interjects foreshadowed discussions on this type of that the oil industry would not cooperate. The company but never proceeded? As for robust, oil industry had no play in this whatsoever, is it not the fact that the petroleum division of one way or the other; it did not interest them. DPIE controlled the issue of production Even where it has been used fairly extensive- licences, not the industry, and never actively ly, with a lot of encouragement, on the west encouraged new producers outside New South coast of the United States, I think the total Wales? As for ecologically sustainable, the contribution, after a lot of subsidy, was about evaluation at no time makes the claim that 10 per cent. It should be borne in mind that you just made that it was a complete failure. that was very much driven by the need to In misrepresenting the Australian production reduce carbon monoxide. It is not a reduction model, BRS incorrectly ascribes soil carbon of carbon dioxide through the ethanol process; flux to ethanol produced from industrial it is a reduction of carbon monoxide. wastes from annual food crops. Senator PARER—It was very hard to hear From an environmental point of view, as the question being asked. I will do my best, Senator Lees should know, because of the Senator, but I can tell you that you are flog- lead policies introduced in Australia, carbon ging a dead horse. You went down a loony— monoxide levels have in fact reduced in this country. So carbon monoxide levels, from a Senator Schacht—Through the chair. pollutant point of view, are actually going Senator PARER—Senator Lees is flogging down in Australia, not up. a dead horse. A report was put out. You are The other area where it can be important if talking about the costs of production and so you have got high levels of carbon monoxide on. Let me say to the Senate—if that suits is in very cold climates. I think that climatic you—that the ethanol industry, as does any point of view is referred to in the report. I am other of these industries, still gets the benefit not sure, but I know that is the advice that I of no excise duty and no state excises on their have got. production. That comes to in the order of about 40c a litre. So indirectly there is a Senator LEES—I have a couple of follow- subsidy already there for these alternative up questions, Madam President. Minister, this forms of fuel. document has been refuted page by page by the industry. I ask: have you got a copy of Might I also indicate that only within the that? I am particularly interested to know why last week I was approached by the Australian this was unsourced, why you have not been Conservation Foundation. Among a list of able to include in the document you released things they spoke about was the ethanol the information on which you base this. As bounty. I offered them a copy of the report far as subsidies are concerned, is it not a fact which they said they already had. I would that over $800 million is going to the diesel have to say that they generally agreed, having fuel rebate alone? This industry was never reviewed the report—which is what I had at meant to be a competitive industry before the my disposal—there was no option but to go year 2000. Indeed, it was given seed funding down that track of removing the bounty. and they were looking at the year 2000 before With regard to distribution, I think the they would be able to go on their own. The ethanol contribution was 0.07 or 0.007. It was final part of my question is: is it not a fact a very tiny amount, anyway, into the mix. It that they saw the year 2000 as being the time is a 90 per cent petrol, 10 per cent ethanol by which they would no longer need to have mix that occurs. Niche markets were devel- the bounty? Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3557

Senator PARER—My understanding is accept that you won’t have any first-hand that the initial program was a three-year knowledge on this issue, but could you program. The industry certainly asked for it indicate the government’s general approach’. to be extended to the year 2000; that is quite I said that without knowing the merits of the correct. All the evaluations we have done decision, I would assume— were done quite independently—by BRS, Senator Bob Collins—What? ABARE and the department. To say that the department controlled it is an absolute non- Senator ALSTON—Do you want the sense. answer or not? I would assume that the government had access to the best advice, that Let me repeat: it does not mean we are it would have made the decision conscious of turning our back on alternative fuels. I men- all the relevant factors, that it would not have tioned before that there is an amount of been an arbitrary or capricious decision and money still set aside in the budget for the that we therefore would have ensured that we lignocellulosics plant, which is woody waste. had access to all the necessary information. Also, the Energy Research and Development All I am saying to you is that those are Corporation has an amount set aside for approaches that one would expect of good continuing research into this process. Finally, government. I am quite happy to ask Mr even in today’s paper, which is what sparked Sharp to provide you with as much as he off these questions, it is recognised that if you possibly can in terms of the information that use crops to make ethanol, you are going to was taken into account in the making of that contribute to greenhouse gas emissions. (Time decision. But I am sure you understand now, expired) as you understood then, that I did not have Aviation: Emergency Locator Beacons any personal knowledge of the issue. I there- fore did not have access to the advice. Senator BOB COLLINS—My question is directed to the Minister representing the Senator Bob Collins—Oh, yes! Minister for Transport and Regional Develop- Senator ALSTON—Of course. I was ment. After the minister gagged Aviation making it plain to you last night that all I Safety Authority officials during the estimates could do was assume, as one would normally hearings last night and prevented them from assume, and I think you were nodding vigo- answering any questions relating to the rously at the end of that exchange, that that unprecedented political direction of the is indeed the best approach to adopt. You did minister for transport to overturn the decision not pursue the matter further for that reason. of the authority to require the fitting of I say to you again that in making this deci- automatically activating emergency locator sion— beacons, the minister said that the government The PRESIDENT—Senator Alston, your had issued this direction on ‘the best advice’. answer should not be addressed directly to the He went on to say that ‘the government was questioner. conscious of the consequences of the decision’. Can the minister now advise the Senator ALSTON—It is surprising, Mad- Senate what was, to quote him, ‘the best am President, that the other side did not take advice’ that the minister for transport used to a point of order. The fact is— take this unprecedented action in overturning Senator Bob Collins—I was impeccable, a safety authority decision on equipment to be Dick. installed in Australian aircraft? Can he make Senator ALSTON—Well, you might have that best advice available to the Senate. been impeccable to that extent but Senator Senator ALSTON—In the course of last Collins certainly was not impeccable in night’s proceedings, after Senator Collins had pursuing the matter last night. He did accept made a fool of himself by suggesting that that there were principles of good government somehow you could ask officials about the and good decision making that did involve level of morale in the department in relation having access to all the necessary facts and to decisions, I was asked, with a preface, ‘I information. That includes the advice that is 3558 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 available to the minister. Naturally, I will Employees’ Share Scheme invite the minister to respond in the most helpful way possible. Senator McGAURAN—My question is to Senator Short, the Assistant Treasurer. Senator BOB COLLINS—Following that Minister, a recent article in the Sydney Morn- interesting answer from Senator Alston, is ing Herald reported that the Commonwealth Senator Alston aware that his assumption that Bank plans to give about $100 million of its he has just told us about was sadly flawed shares to employees over the next three years and that the reason the minister for transport under proposed changes to the share staff took what we were advised last night was an scheme announced in the federal budget. unprecedented action in politically directing Therefore, can you outline how employees the authority in respect of overturning a will benefit from the budget proposal for the decision on safety equipment on aircraft was taxation of employees’ share plans. in fact a payment for some help that was given to the now government during the Senator SHORT—I thank Senator election campaign in some newsletters that McGauran for his question. It is a subject in were published, which I will canvass at a which he has long had a keen interest. future time. Is the minister conscious of the Opposition senators—Oh! fact that, on the evidence given to the com- mittee last night, we are now the only country Senator SHORT—He has. It is a bit in the world that uses these beacons that different from the other side of politics. Yes, allows manually activated beacons to be I did notice the article to which Senator used? McGauran referred. It was also contained in other papers. Senator ALSTON—I am aware that Sena- tor Collins did read into the Hansard record It is very pleasing to note that, not one before seeking to table or incorporate it a month after the budget announcement, the letter which I think was dated 5 May 1995— business community is endorsing and acting on the government’s policies to the possible Senator Bob Collins—No, that has nothing benefit of many, many thousands of employ- to do with this question. ees. I understand, as Senator McGauran has Senator ALSTON—I thought it had. intimated, that the Commonwealth Bank is Senator Collins I thought was suggesting that planning three employee share plans, one of a decision was taken for reasons that were which will be offered to most of the bank’s based on presentations made to the minister. 36,000 full-time and part-time staff. Those If that is not so, of course I will disregard it. plans have to be approved, I understand, by I simply say this, Madam President: whatever shareholders at the annual general meeting decision Mr Sharp made, he was not required next month. to have access only to the advice that you The government announced in the budget think he should have taken into account. its commitment to its election promise to Senator Bob Collins—What! provide more generous tax treatment for employees’ share schemes, which was, of Senator ALSTON—He was entitled to take course, yet another promise delivered in full into account all of the necessary areas of to the benefit of employees from the factory advice that are available to him, and he makes floor to the executive level. That is on top of that judgment as best he can. the other election promises that were deliv- Senator Bob Collins—About what equip- ered in full and on time, of course: the family ment is fitted to aircraft? tax initiative, the private health insurance initiative, the capital gains tax rollover relief Senator ALSTON—He does not have to for small business, the reduction in provision- take a decision based on what you think is the al tax uplift factor and other things that will appropriate advice. He makes the decision on benefit small business and average Austral- advice that appeals to him. (Time expired) ians. Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3559

Now, not more than a month after the Minister for Small Business and budget, a major business house, we see, is Consumer Affairs announcing plans which are tailored to take advantage of our proposal. We want to see Senator PARER—During question time and to encourage further participation in today Senator Cook asked me a question employees’ share schemes and to encourage about the APEC small business meeting in the greater voluntary saving. We want to see Philippines attended by Mr Prosser. I do have more employees owning shares in their some responses to his question. employers’ businesses through employees’ First of all, the overall cost of the trip, as share schemes because through those schemes he would know, will be reported in due we can promote greater industrial harmony course, are as are all overseas trips, but the and help break down the barriers between cost was kept to a minimum, as is the practice management and employees. with this government. The benefits of the minister attending the APEC ministerial Employees’ share schemes have a very conference are generally those of being in important and significant role in this case. touch with SME ministers in our region and That is why we announced in the budget that, the networking that results. I can understand from 1 July 1996, the value of shares or the strange questions being asked from the rights that may be tax exempt under qualify- other side, because this minister happens to be ing employees’ schemes will be doubled from a real, genuine small business operator who $500 to $1,000 per employee per year. On top started from scratch. of that, from 1 July this year, the government will ease the employee participation condi- As to the outrageous allegations of the tions for qualifying employees’ share schemes minister’s non-attendance, I have been ad- from 75 per cent of permanent employees to vised by the minister that the sessions covered two-thirds of permanent employees for shares Thursday, 5 September and the morning of under the tax deferral concession and for Friday, 6 September. The minister attended shares and rights under the exemption conces- sessions at which he gave reports on the 1995 sion. That will make it much easier for Adelaide APEC-SME ministerial conference employees’ share schemes to meet the partici- and a report on the business matching and pation conditions with the flow-on effect of facilitation project. During some sessions the concessional tax treatment. minister attended bilateral discussions with other ministers, which is not unusual, but at all times representatives of the delegation Legislation will be introduced into the were present at the meeting. parliament in the next few weeks to give effect to those proposals, which I must say The minister also advised me that, like two are in quite stark contrast to the Labor Party’s other members of the Australian delegation, policies in relation to this area. The Senate he suffered an abdominal complaint that will recall that in the 1994 budget Labor required his absence from some of the ses- unveiled a plan to impose fringe benefits tax sions. As to the full particulars of what was on those schemes. Labor’s 1994 budget discussed at these sessions, these will be announcement would have thrown employees’ provided in a full report of the meeting that share schemes pretty well out the window is in the process of being prepared in consul- overnight and it was clear to everybody but tation with his department. the then Treasurer, Mr Willis, that the plan The minister did not attend the final press would spell the death knell of those schemes, conference as the only flight available for him in stark contrast to ours. (Time expired) and a number of other delegates to leave Sabu was the 2.30 flight to Singapore. Otherwise he Senator Hill—Madam President, after that and his delegation would have had to remain excellent answer, I ask that further questions in the Philippines for another night—at be placed on the Notice Paper. considerable cost to the Australian taxpayer. 3560 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

Telstra What in fact I did—and Senator Parer Senator ALSTON—I wish to add to an obviously did not talk about the internals of answer that I gave to the Senate on Monday a private meeting—was ask for information to when I indicated that, in respect of sugges- enable me to hire a dose meter for the trip to tions of a $400 million windfall: the Northern Territory. The outcome of the discussion with the committee was that I was If you look at the dividend figure of $1.368 billion, advised that that would be organised. you find that is only about $74 million more than the implicit figure which we had budgeted for. In Senator Tambling—The company would other words, there is a very minor increase. have given you one up there. I did have discussions with the Treasurer Senator Woodley—Mr Deputy President, yesterday morning, and he indicated that he I rise on a point of order. I believe that when was having work done in his office. This a personal explanation is being given it ought morning my attention has been drawn to the to be heard without interjection. fact that yesterday, after question time in the The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—You are House of Representatives, Mr Costello indi- correct. Senator Margetts. cated that that work had demonstrated that the special dividend in respect of 1996-97 had not Senator MARGETTS—I thank the Senate. been taken into account by the Treasury in In the end, the committee secretariat said that assessing the extent of the difference between they were offered the use of two—as I was the budget estimate and the actual announced advised originally—dose meters. In fact, the dividend. Once that is taken into account, the Australian Radiation Laboratory offered to let dividend is running at about $26 million us borrow two TLD monitor film badges. behind the budget estimate. They were not dose meters. What follows from that, of course, is that The minister said I could have known that there is no windfall of anything of the dimen- there was a high level of radiation because I sions of $400 million—not only as indicated did not trust the technology. Once again, by the Australian Democrats, but as supported Senator Parer has misled the Senate because by Kim Beazley. In fact, on those figures, a film badge will not give you a reading. It there is indeed a shortfall. might change colour if you are in a very high level of radiation, but it does not give you a PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS reading in a particular location; you have to Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) have it analysed later. (10.40 a.m.)—Madam President, I seek leave We were going to four different uranium to make a personal explanation. mine sites. Out of curiosity, I thought I would Leave granted. wear the dose meter during the visits to the mine sites and have it analysed later. Senator MARGETTS—Thank you, Mad- am President. I rise to speak briefly on the The minister has used this place to defame issues that the Minister for Resources and me on the basis of taking the interest and the Energy (Senator Parer) has mentioned on the work that I have done— personal level. I will also, probably like a Senator Abetz—Mr Deputy President, I number of senators, be rising on the substan- rise on a point of order. Personal explan- tive issue to deal with the issues of his answer ations—and, indeed, the opposition has made to the question from Senator Ferris. this point with me from time to time—are The first point I would like to make is that simply to set the record straight, and are not the minister has in effect misled the Senate. an opportunity to make allegations against First of all, he has said that I insisted that the other people, for example, by someone saying committee pay for a radiation dose meter. I that a minister has defamed her. do not know where the minister got that The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! With information, but it is incorrect, so he is in personal explanations there can be no debate. effect misleading the Senate. I have been listening to Senator Margetts Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3561 carefully. I do not think she has transgressed I felt more comfortable out of the dust of a that area yet. uranium mine. I think that is a reasonable Senator MARGETTS—Let me point out thing to do. There is a difference between another area where the minister has misled the ingested radiation and gamma radiation. I Senate in this instance. The minister said that believe it is reasonable for me not to be I did the same thing at Lucas Heights. When forced to breathe in dust from a uranium mine the committee went to Lucas Heights we were on such an inquiry. not offered dose meters. Other people on the There are very few people who do more staff had them. Most of them turned them off. work on the issue of radiation and radiation Only one person, one staff member, had their policy in this chamber than I do. So if there dose meter on—it actually was one that gave is any suggestion that I am wasting taxpayer’s readings. That person stayed back where I money, the minister ought to find out the was when the committee was being shown facts. I will be seeking leave to take note of radioactive waste repositories. So there was the substantive issues. no instance where I was wearing a radioactive dose meter at Lucas Heights. They were not QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE offered. However, we were not permitted by Ethanol the Queensland government to go to the Esk Senator LEES (South Australia—Deputy facility unless we were wearing a radioactive Leader of the Australian Democrats) (10.49 dose meter. a.m.)—I move: I think that the minister certainly owes me That the Senate take note of the answers given an apology. The information that he has used by the Minister for Resources and Energy (Senator was based on a Northern Territory newspaper Parer), to questions without notice asked by Senator article. I was contacted by the— Lees and Senator O’Brien today, relating to the cessation of the ethanol bounty scheme. The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Order! I think you are starting to debate the issue. As the Minister for Resources and Energy said, the horse is dead. If it is, it is thanks to Senator MARGETTS—No, I am sorry. the minister who I presume has deliberately The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I am sorry, pursued a policy of removing what I think you are. You may continue, but do not debate many in the oil industry see as a threat. the issue. You are making a personal explan- I will come back to the substantive matter ation. and deal initially with the unsourced docu- Senator MARGETTS—Mr Deputy Presi- ment that was tabled in this place a few dent, during the debate the minister quoted weeks ago. I ask the minister: firstly, why is from an article in the Northern Territory it unsourced? I think it is most unusual for a press. I am explaining what is also incorrect document to be put down in this place in this in that article. The journalist contacted me way. Perhaps the back page is missing. I have and said, ‘I hear you also didn’t get out of the no bibliography, no attachments, to tell me bus in your sightseeing at Kakadu.’ He was what documentation you used to put this fishing. The delegation did not do any sight- together. There is no indication of which seeing on that trip. Therefore, basically, the scientific materials, what research papers, journalist was trying to find out whether or were used and which departments were not I had got out at Kakadu. involved. If you read through the body of it, During his statement today the minister also you find that several departments are men- made comments about what information is tioned. available on Ranger workers. That is more the I begin by calling on the minister to please substantive issue. I believe that I am owed an put before this chamber all the documents he apology because the information is not cor- used to put together this unsourced document. rect. It is true that in the circumstances of a If we are not able to get them, shall we say, dusty mine environment at the Ranger urani- easily and, hopefully, happily minister, we um mine, I chose to stay in the bus because will probably have to go through the process 3562 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 of a return to order to make sure that we can they saw as a risk. But it turned out to be find our way through the maze to establish quite profitable for them. I have been reliably how on earth you came to many of the very informed that, as fast as the ethanol could be strange conclusions. produced, it was able to be marketed through I will just deal very briefly with a few of independent oil companies. the conclusions. On the question of whether Advice from one ethanol producer that their or not this industry is competitive, I would company would, with the benefit of the argue that it was never intended that the bounty, produce ethanol by 2000 without any industry would be up and running in the two further need for support was totally ignored. years that it has had the bounty scheme. Indeed, nowhere in this document do you find Indeed it was given seed funding to enable it that any real opportunity has been given for to begin to get going, to begin to prove that the companies, particularly Manildra, to put it was going to be in the longer term eco- their point of view or to in any way refute nomically viable and that it could be competi- some of the very questionable evidence that tive. has been put before us. I can find no evidence that ABARE ever On the question of ecological sustainability, conducted a current or future analysis of the evaluation that we have before us at no ethanol production in Australia. ABARE time actually makes the claim that the scheme foreshadowed discussions of this kind with was a complete failure, as the minister said on Manildra, the company—in particular, with a couple of occasions. In misrepresenting the some financial personnel from the company— Australian production model, BRS incorrectly but never actually proceeded with this review. ascribes soil carbon flux to ethanol produced The model that it has used incorrectly relied from industrial wastes from annual food on Brazilian data and, I believe, some United crops. BRS acknowledged international States data. So in conducting its overall research on the benefits of ethanol in relation analysis, ABARE further compounds its error to emissions of primary vehicle resource by concentrating on Brazil and US models, pollutants, but also identified complexities in which are not representative of ethanol pro- determining the level of any evaporative duction in Australia. emissions associated with ethanol fuel blends. We then come to the question of a robust (Time expired) industry. As I said in my question, the petro- Senator PANIZZA (Western Australia) leum division of DPIE controlled the issue of (10.54 a.m.)—I would like to enter this production losses. There was no chance for ethanol debate for a very short period, be- the industry to build up to the point where we cause it is something that I have had experi- really could begin to talk about whether or ence with in the past. I have had experience not it was robust. It seems that outside of of trying to set up a plant to produce ethanol New South Wales there was no active encour- on farm. In the United States from around agement for expansion. 1965 to 1970 there was the big push for The refusal of large foreign owned oil ethanol production with the so-called world companies to distribute and market fuel oil crisis. ethanol initially imposed severe limits on the However, you have to face realities. Ethanol capacity of producers to take up the bounty production was first tried in Australia, some- allocation in these first two years of the what successfully, during World War II scheme. Despite this policy of non- because there was no other alternative. Cost cooperation adopted by the major oil com- was not a consideration because, if fuel was panies, ethanol producers succeeded in estab- required, it had to be manufactured and it had lishing a steadily expanding market in New to be got hold of somehow. It was tried with South Wales—a steadily expanding market for reasonable success. But we do not know for fuel ethanol with the cooperation of the certain because that cost was not compared independent oil companies who were prepared with other fuels. At the time gas producers to look at a new product and to take what seemed to have been far more efficient in Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3563 producing for the average smaller vehicle, viable, I think it has to be left where it is although gas producers were pretty useless now, and that is on the backburner. when it came to heavy vehicles. Senator WOODLEY (Queensland) (10.58 The next upsurge in the idea of producing a.m.)—I hope that the Minister for Resources ethanol as an alternative fuel came in about and Energy (Senator Parer) is going to return 1969 in Australia. It was tried at a time when to Manildra to listen to the people employed the world overproduction of wheat was on in this industry and what it means to them, and when Australia, for a very short time, had which is one of the economic factors that wheat quotas. There were a few experimental needs to be looked into. It may be that he has plants in Australia. But, even with wheat in not been there—I am presuming that he has— those days of 1969-70 at around $50 a tonne, seeing he has made these pronouncements it was not viable to produce ethanol and use from a great height. But I am sure that he it successfully even with the rising world would want to face the people whose lives it prices of oil. will affect. However, he does not have to go as far as Manildra because ethanol is also During that time I personally got quotes produced from sugarcane. There is a plant at from the United States to get a plant out in Rocky Point sugar mill just south of Brisbane order to erect on the farm and produce etha- that the minister could go to and get the same nol. But when you worked out that, with the kind of information from. average farm production unit the United Senator Bob Collins—It is further than States supplied at the time, it would take Manildra. virtually two or three years to manufacture Senator WOODLEY—He lives in Bris- ethanol that you would use in one year; the bane. cost factor was blown out as well as not being able to get enough production. Then, of Senator Bob Collins—Fine! course, wheat prices took a big jump in 1973- Senator WOODLEY—That is right, 74 and ethanol was put on the backburner Senator Collins. My geography is pretty good. again. I hope that that is one of the economic factors taken account of face-to-face by the minister. We have the case here, as has come out But one of the problems in this debate is that today, where, in order to get last year’s the coalition really does not understand the budget through, some toing-and-froing went importance of regional development—one of on with the Democrats and a certain amount the issues we are now debating—and the need was inserted into the budget to have a look at to support new primary industries, especially the ethanol situation again. Unfortunately, those involved in value adding, which is the economics has proven that both ethanol and rhetoric that we hear from them all the time. the cost of production of ethanol at the But, when it comes to actual practical on-the- present moment cannot compete with other ground support for regional industry, we get fuels. Furthermore, as Senator Margetts would what has happened today. The rhetoric is not know, the Metropolitan Transport Trust in backed up. Perth—Metrobus or whatever they call it—has had a couple of diesel buses converted to run I am devastated that another regional on ethanol running around for quite some industry has been cut off at the knees. I time. Although the operation has been rather cannot understand why the coalition keeps successful, unfortunately, the economics has targeting rural and regional industry for not. In this day of economic rationalism, destruction. The coalition constantly says, which I support, ethanol has not reached the ‘We represent those people.’ position where it can be economically manu- This unsourced document, which the factured. I mean, you can subsidise and you minister keeps referring to, looks to me as can subsidise, but there has been nothing new though was written by somebody with a over the years. Until we come to a stage vested interest. If we do not have the source, where it is somewhere near economically we cannot tell, but in my mind there is the 3564 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 suspicion that the oil companies might have have the most retrograde policies. And they been behind it. get up here and cry crocodile tears! I feel sorry for the National Party of Aus- Senator Kernot—Mr Deputy President, on tralia, because I have lots of friends in the a point of order: we are debating ethanol. We National Party. But, once again, they have have not heard the word ‘ethanol’ used once. been killed by the Liberal Party. Like Peter Senator BOSWELL—I will mention the Pan on Captain Hook’s pirate ship, the Nats word ethanol now. Anyone would recognise are nice people but they are trying to live that Senator Panizza is one of Australia’s with very dangerous cutthroats. most successful farmers. His family started Senator Boswell—Mr Deputy President— with their backside out of their pants when they came from Italy and have developed into The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I did not one of Australia’s biggest and most successful give you the call, Senator Boswell. farmers. He knows the cost of putting a Senator Boswell—Have I got the call? product into the ground and growing it. He The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I wanted to knows the cost of burning up all that energy know whether the minister needed the call. on the tractor when you plant and harvest the product. Senator Parer—I am happy to defer to It is financially impossible to grow and Senator Boswell. I think I should wait until produce products cheaper with any product the rest have spoken. Then I will be happy to other than petrol. Senator Panizza knows that. respond to this so-called unsourced document. Anyone with one iota of financial common- The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—You might sense—I exclude the Democrats—would be out of time. know that. Senator BOSWELL (Queensland—Leader You can go out there and subsidise farmers of the National Party of Australia in the and so on. They do not want the sort of Senate) (11.03 a.m.)—Mr Deputy President, treatment that you are offering them, namely, Senator Woodley’s contribution on behalf of trying to artificially produce a product that the Australian Democrats was an absolutely cannot be put on the market at a realistic disgraceful performance by a party that just price. So I say to the Democrats that produc- wiped out 1,000 bush children qualifying for ing ethanol this way has no financial future. Austudy. Last week, the Australian Democrats Senator Kernot—Tell the canefarmers. voted with the Australian Labor Party and removed 1,000 rural students from Austudy. Senator BOSWELL—You can tell the It was a disgraceful performance to then get canefarmers but they know it. As for bringing up here and cry crocodile tears by saying, up the plant at Rocky Point, the canefarmers ‘We are friends of the bush.’ produce ethanol but they have never been proud of this bounty system. They never Where do the Australian Democrats stand wanted it and they never asked for it. They on kangaroo culling? You don’t want it! told me last week that they do not particularly Where do you stand on live sheep? You don’t want to be involved in this artificial scheme want it! Where do you stand on the diesel to produce ethanol. fuel rebate? Where do you stand on the increase in petrol fuel prices? The Democrats have no credibility in getting up here and arguing about ethanol or The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Senator any other matter that relates either directly or Boswell, would you direct your remarks indirectly to primary products. through the chair, please. Senator STOTT DESPOJA (South Aus- Senator BOSWELL—The Democrats tralia) (11.07 a.m.)—I will discuss the ethanol engage in an absolute facade by getting up rebate scheme after the clayton’s ethanol here and saying that they are the farmers’ debate that we just had from Senator Boswell, friends. They are the farmers worst enemies. as much as I would love to get into the issue They are worse than the Labor Party. They of the dependent spouse allowance on Aust- Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3565 udy, which Senator Boswell has misrep- including Mr Gordon. I certainly hope the resented in this chamber today. minister has visited Manildra and looked at In this chamber today, Senator Parer in the processes being developed there. They response to Senator Lees, said that the Aus- have put $28 million into research and the tralian Democrats were, in fact, flogging a development of renewable industries. And dead horse. It is a horse that the Minister for what has this government done? It has just Resources and Energy (Senator Parer) killed. removed it. How many businesses and indus- Two years is all this scheme has had to tries are expected to establish themselves in establish itself. It is outrageous for this two years, especially an industry such as this government to pull the props and assistance with a long-term, sustainable objective? It is out from the rebate scheme—the one commit- an absolute outrage. ment by this nation to the development of I would also like to refer to the minister’s alternative fuels and a sustainable industry. comments today regarding a report in today’s Senator Panizza made the comment that Australian. I believe the minister misrepresen- ethanol was produced during World War II. ted that report when he talked about the env- That is true. But he claimed it was because ironmental aspects and benefits of this par- there were no other alternatives. The reality ticular scheme. The minister referred to that this chamber and this country has to comments by the ACF. I would like to hear wake up to is that after 2010 there will be no directly from the ACF, with all due respect, fuel alternatives, that in actual fact the ex- because I think the ACF may have said some- ploitable reserves of oil in this country will thing rather different from what was reported run out. We do not have alternatives. It is in this place. In fact, there is a fundamental about time we established and committed difference between ethanol production in ourselves to renewable and sustainable indus- countries such as the United States and Brazil tries. where crops are grown exclusively for the production of ethanol. Bob Gordon of Manil- As for the report referred to, Senator Lees dra pointed out that: said in this chamber that in fact the report that has been peddled—not only in this parliament Unlike Brazil or the US, where crops are grown but in the press gallery—is an unsourced exclusively as feedstock for ethanol and where they report. I wonder whether it is standard prac- could be net emitters of greenhouse gases— tice to table reports in this place that are and that is acknowledged— unsourced and that have spurious recommen- dations and reach dubious conclusions? virtually all the country (Australia) could be supplied (with ethanol) as the bi-products from Senator Woodley referred to his suspicions as existing crops grown for other reasons, such as to who might have been responsible for the food. report. I would like to ask the minister, as did Senator Lees, for all documents pertaining to So the conclusions about net emissions are a the conclusions he expressed in this chamber furphy. Environmentally and economically we today to be tabled in this place. have not seen evidence that demonstrates that the rebate scheme is unsound, inefficient or Through you, Mr Deputy President, I would unproductive. also like to ask the minister to address the issue of jobs. Senator Lees and others have I support the recommendations that have been inundated. Farmers from rural New been put forward by the Fuel Ethanol Asso- South Wales properties have been ringing and ciation of Australia which says that Australian faxing us in despair over job losses through interests will be best met by maintaining the the removal of this rebate. We are talking bounty scheme without additional funding farm jobs as well as jobs associated with beyond which has already been allocated. particular production plants. And I repeat They are not asking for more money; they are Senator Woodley’s request. I hope the asking for the status quo, for maintenance, minister has visited Manildra. I have been while closely monitoring its progress with the there and I have met with people there, results of vital R&D programs. 3566 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

Senator PARER (Queensland—Minister say that any reasonable person in this country, for Resources and Energy) (11.12 a.m.)—I having read that document, could come to no wish to respond to some of the remarks made other conclusion than to abandon the particu- by various speakers this morning. First of all, lar project. let us address the document, referred to as the It is not as though we are walking away unsourced document, which was waved from alternative energies. We are totally around with great gusto by Senator Lees. It supportive of alternative energies, provided was also referred to by another senator. The the proposal is practical, not pixie stuff. This Australian Democrats talked about producing proposal fits into the pixie category, regrettab- all the documents, but let me say that all the ly. documents have been produced. We have assisted the Energy Research and Senator Kernot—Which document is that Development Corporation’s continuing re- one? search into ethanol. We have maintained the Senator PARER—Let me finish, for budget figure for the lignocellulosic pilot goodness sake. You are the one who gets plant—the use of woody waste. Perhaps, with upset when people interject. That particular the passage of time, that technology will be document happens to be, would you believe, able to produce liquid fuels which are com- my speech notes that I intended to use. They petitive. have not yet been approved; they are my own The issue of competitiveness was raised. I internal speech notes that ended up in the point out again that the cost of producing hands of Bob Gordon, and he gave them to ethanol is in the order of 70c a litre, with no the Democrats—surprise, surprise. There is indication of that figure coming down. The nothing magical about them. estimate of 30c to 40c a litre does not bear Senator Bob Collins—How did he get scrutiny. The current production of liquid them? fuels from oil is about 23c a litre. Senator PARER—I will tell you later. The bounty amounted to 18c a litre. All up, What you did get, and what I tabled in this if you take into account the excise that ap- particular place, was the portfolio evaluation, plies to fossil fuels and the state excise levies, a management response to the ethanol bounty you are looking at all-up support for the scheme. It is the complete documentation; industry of 60c a litre. Even with removal of there is no other documentation. the bounty, which saves the Australian tax- I am not going to repeat all the things I said payer $20 million, there is still an amount of before, but from every aspect this thing was 40c a litre where the alternative fuel industry tried and it was a failure. There are tut-tuts has a lead over fossil fuels. I would have coming from the Democrats over there. It was thought that was fairly substantial. your idea so you have to promote it, but the I come now to the crocodile tears shed by question is whether it is ever going to be some senators. It was made very clear to me economic. The answer has to be no. You say, that ethanol is a by-product of CSR at Sarina ‘Well, you have only given it two years; it and also the gluten manufacturer at Manildra. was a three-year program.’ The amount of Certainly, they would have liked it to con- uptake in the first two years was fairly minor, tinue—anyone likes to keep the money $3 million but, in taking a very sensible coming in. But it was also made very clear to decision after an in-depth evaluation, we have me that the work being done at Manildra and saved the taxpayers of this country $20 CSR will continue; it will not change. This million. talk of farmers ringing up is just nonsense— But that is not the only reason. Other arrant nonsense. (Time expired) reasons have been outlined in the full report, Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) and that is why I tabled it. If, having read the (11.17 a.m.)—I realise that my ability to tabled document, you still have some dispute speak on my question will be limited but I with it, by all means canvass it. But I would want to make some comments in relation to Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3567 today’s motion to take note of Senator Parer’s there because the States have been cost shifting. answer on ethanol. The issues are many and Could you please explain what has been happening various but it is significant that the govern- with regard to cost shifting? What have the States been doing? Which States have been doing what? ment talks about why it is not possible to How are you going to spread those $312 million in support a particular industry when it has not cuts over four years across the States? Finally, tabled a document recently produced by the given the enormous problems facing our public Department of the Environment, Sport and hospital system, is your government prepared to Territories. reconsider this move and, in particular, are you prepared to consider allocating the one per cent That document indicates that, even without increase in the Medicare levy for high income mining, there is $5.7 billion annually of earners directly into the public hospital system? subsidy by state and federal government— Minister, when you are seeking further details money that could be spent in many productive from the Minister for Health, could you please ask ways. That $5.7 billion could go to fiscal if he will again reconsider this move, considering assistance for resource extraction industries in the pressure that the public hospital system is Australia—and that is without the environ- under. Last June—you are quite right—all States agreed to stop cost shifting, but they are insisting mental subsidies of $8.5 billion per year. that they have stopped cost shifting. So can you ask If what we are hearing is correct—Senator the Minister what evidence he has of where the Parer probably knows that a number of people cost shifting is occurring, and who is doing what? from his department were at Monday’s semi- My final question is: could you please again check whether he is prepared to look at allocating the nar conducted by Brian Fleay—we will have increase in the Medicare levy directly into the state to look for alternatives to petroleum. We are public hospital system? reaching the halfway point of the world’s Senator Lees asked several questions about the petroleum resources, so the price for petro- Budget measure addressing cost shifting under the leum will vary immensely. Medicare program. I indicated that I would follow If Australia does not position itself for up on the details of this matter. I now have the renewable, non-fossil fuel sources of energy, relevant information. especially those that can be used for car and There has been no cut in the Budget to hospital truck engines, we will be behind the eight funding. The Forward Estimates show that Hospital Financing Grants have been maintained in their ball. It makes no sense at all. I can see no entirety across the four years of the estimate. forward thinking by the government in this regard. It is about time ministerial responsi- No efficiency dividend has been applied to Hospital Financing Grants, despite the significant bilities were taken seriously and that ministers improvements in efficiency in public hospitals in acted not just on behalf of fossil fuel produc- recent years. The Commonwealth would have been ers and big corporations outside Australia. justified in asking the States for a share of these Question resolved in the affirmative. savings, but chose not to do so. The cost shifting measure is not a cut to hospital Hospital Funding funding. This measure is an acknowledgment that the Commonwealth is recouping some of the Senator NEWMAN—Yesterday Senator money being taken out of the Medicare system by Lees asked me a question and I undertook to the States, contrary to the commitment given at the get further particulars. I would like to in- April 1995 meeting of Health Ministers. Given that corporate the additional answer in Hansard. the amount being cost-shifted is greater than the amount being recouped, it could be said that Leave granted. hospital funding has actually been increased. The answer read as follows— Cost-shifting is still going on—for example, one QUESTION WITHOUT NOTICE SENATOR Melbourne hospital has 62 privatised out-patient LEES—17 SEPTEMBER 1996 services, some of which have been established very recently. Hospital Funding States cost-shift at different levels—at this point My question is directed to the Minister represent- we do not have precise data. Estimates are based ing the Minister for Health and Family Services. on Health Insurance Commission data, and the The cuts in the budget for public hospital funding, Department of Health is confident that over the some $312 million across all States, are apparently coming months very exact figures can be devel- 3568 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 oped. The cost-shifting measure recoups costs in We demand the Australian Government honour proportion to the amounts by which States cost- its promises to: shift. maintain Austudy and Abstudy with benefits The Government has already recognised the at real levels problems of public hospitals by its decision not to apply an efficiency dividend to Hospital Financing maintain levels of funding to universities in Grants. Difficulties the hospitals experience are terms of operating grants related to the decisions made by State Governments maintain the Higher Education Contribution about their hospital funding. Scheme (HECS) The Minister for Health has advised me that no ensure no compulsory up-front fees for under- State has stopped cost-shifting, and substantial graduate places evidence from medical practitioners who are being pressured to change the way they treat patients in ensure no cuts in university places. casualty in public hospitals, and also to arrange Your petitioners ask that the Senate oppose any pre- and post-operative work-ups away from intention by an Australian Government to introduce hospitals gives a clear indication that the practice student fees, increase HECS repayments, abolish continues, in contravention of the Medicare Agree- Austudy or Abstudy, or cut funding for university ments. places. PETITIONS by Senator Stott Despoja (from 101 citi- The Clerk—Petitions have been lodged for zens). presentation as follows: Child Care Higher Education Contribution Scheme To the Honourable the President and Members of To the Honourable the President and Members of the Senate in the Parliament assembled. the Senate in the Parliament assembled: The petition of the undersigned strongly oppose The petition of the undersigned demand the the cuts to Childcare Assistance available for Australian Government honour its commitment to holiday absences for families who use long day the Higher Education sector as stated in the Liberal care centres. and National Parties’ Higher Education Policy These cuts, which both the Liberal/National (February 1996). Coalition and the ALP support, reduce the amount We demand the Australian Government honour of Childcare Assistance previously paid by the its promises to: Government to parents for allowable holiday maintain Austudy and Abstudy with benefits absences by half. at real levels Your Petitioners ask that the Senate reverse its maintain levels of funding to universities in support for these regressive changes to Childcare terms of operating grants Assistance. maintain the Higher Education Contribution by Senator Woodley (from 532 citizens). Scheme (HECS) Petitions received. ensure no compulsory up-front fees for under- graduate places Non-conforming Petitions ensure no cuts in university places. Senator Stott Despoja—I seek leave to Your petitioners ask that the Senate oppose any present two petitions which have been lodged intention by an Australian Government to introduce with the Clerk under standing order 69 but student fees, increase HECS repayments, abolish Austudy or Abstudy, or cut funding for university which have not been certified because they places. are not in the proper form. by Senator Stott Despoja (from 22 citizens). Senator Panizza—These non-conforming petitions are given on a non-broadcast day. Higher Education Contribution Scheme We are prepared to give leave on a non- The petition of the undersigned demand the broadcast day. Australian Government honour its commitment to the Higher Education sector as stated in the Liberal The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—That is the and National Parties’ Higher Education Policy convention in this place. Does it create any (February 1996). problems for you? Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3569

Senator Stott Despoja—Not at all, Mr (iii) failing to enhance national savings by Deputy President. I will do it tomorrow. I increasing government borrowing; and apologise. (c) supports the current Government in its plans to be economically responsible, reduce debt Senator Cooney—I am in a similar posi- levels and get Australia back on track. tion to that of Senator Stott Despoja. I will not try to persuade the Senate to take a ORDER OF BUSINESS different course. Through you, Mr Deputy BHP Petroleum President, would I have any hope? Motion (by Senator Margetts) agreed to: The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—I suppose I should ask you whether it creates any prob- That general business notice of motion No. 11 standing in the name of Senator Margetts for today, lems. relating to a review of BHP Petroleum’s offshore Senator Cooney—No. I will not press it. safety arrangements, be postponed till 8 October 1996. NOTICES OF MOTION Rural and Regional Affairs and Federal Government Borrowings Transport References Committee Senator PATTERSON (Victoria)—I give Motion (by Senator Woodley) agreed to: notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall That business of the Senate notice of motion No. move: 1 standing in the name of Senator Woodley for That the Senate— today, relating to the reference of matters to the (a) notes that: Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Refer- ences Committee, be postponed till 9 October 1996. (i) during the 1995-96 financial year about $10 billion was spent paying interest Superannuation Committee payments on Federal Government borrow- ing, Motion (by Senator Foreman,atthe request of Senator Sherry) agreed to: (ii) this $10 billion will be spent annually until the public debt is reduced, and so That general business notice of motion No. 222 $10 billion each year cannot be put to standing in the name of Senator Sherry for this day, economically and socially better uses, relating to the reference of matters to the Select such as caring for the aged, health, the Committee on Superannuation, be postponed till the environment and education, next day of sitting. (iii) the past 5 years of Government have seen COMMITTEES the Australian Labor Party build up a dependency on debt and deficit, with Environment, Recreation, general government debt increasing from Communications and the Arts Legislation $17 billion in 1990 to $96 billion, a Committee staggering increase of $79 billion, and Extension of Time (iv) if the Coalition Government had not made the necessary adjustments in the Motion (by Senator Patterson) agreed to: 1996-97 Budget, general government debt That the time for the presentation of the report would have increased to $120 billion by of the Environment, Recreation, Communications the year 2000, an increase of more than and the Arts Legislation Committee on the Natural 600 per cent in just 10 years; Heritage Trust of Australia Bill 1996 be extended (b) condemns the previous Labor Government to 10 October 1996. for: (i) mismanagement and neglect resulting in DALAI LAMA 7.5 per cent of gross domestic product, or Motion (by Senator Bourne, at the request $10 billion per year, being spent on of Senator Kernot) agreed to: interest payments rather than on improv- ing Australia, That the Senate— (ii) placing a selfish imposition on future (a) welcomes the Dalai Lama to Canberra and generations by making them pay for a to Parliament House; and government which spent more than it (b) wishes the Dalai Lama constructive out- could earn, and comes in his meetings with members of 3570 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

Parliament and all representatives with an-proclaimed reincarnation of the whom he holds discussions. Panchen Lama, Gedhun Choekyi Nyima, is contrary to freedom of religious prac- COMMITTEES tice, as enshrined within the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and other Legal and Constitutional Legislation human rights instruments, Committee (iv) the concerns of Amnesty International for Reference the safety, welfare and location of the Motion (by Senator Panizza, on behalf of Gedhun Choekyi Nyima and his family, Senator Ellison) agreed to: (v) the Dalai Lama’s proposal at Strasbourg That the following matters relating to the Admin- in 1989 to undertake dialogue with China, istrative Review Council (ARC) be referred to the and the People’s Republic of China’s Legal and Constitutional Legislation Committee for refusal to meet with the Dalai Lama, and inquiry and report by the last day in 1996: (vi) reports by Amnesty International that The optimal role and function of the ARC and there are 650 Tibetan prisoners of con- the relationship between the ARC and other science, some of whom are as young as relevant bodies including, but not limited to, the 12, and that the torture and severe beat- Attorney-General’s Department, other Common- ings of detainees are common. wealth departments, Commonwealth merits review tribunals, the Australian Law Reform Commission, tertiary institutions, the private COMMITTEES sector, and territory and state agencies, with particular reference to: Legal and Constitutional Legislation (a) the benefit of a separate and permanent Committee administrative law advisory body; Report (b) the membership structure of the ARC; (c) the functions and powers of the ARC; Senator PANIZZA (Western Australia)—I (d) the effectiveness of the ARC in performing present the second report of 1996 of the Legal its functions and any obstacles to that and Constitutional Legislation Committee on effectiveness; and the examination of annual reports. (e) the need for any amendment to Part V of Ordered that the report be printed. the Administrative Appeals Tribunal Act. TIBET Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee Motion (by Senator Bourne) agreed to: That the Senate— Report (a) recalls its resolution on Tibet passed on 6 Senator IAN MACDONALD (Queens- December 1990; and land)—I present the report of the Finance and (b) notes: Public Administration Legislation Committee (i) the ongoing human rights abuses of the on the examination of annual reports tabled Tibetan people by the People’s Republic January 1996 to June 1996. of China on religious, political, education- al, language and cultural grounds and Ordered that the report be printed. calls for the cessation of any practice which would deprive the Tibetan people Economics Legislation Committee of their fundamental rights and freedoms, (ii) the Dalai Lama’s affirmation of a com- Report mitment to non-violence and negotiation to solve conflict, as exemplified in His Senator PANIZZA (Western Australia)— Holiness’ receipt of the Nobel Peace On behalf of Senator Chapman, I present the Prize in 1989, second report of 1996 of the Economics (iii) that the People’s Republic of China’s Legislation Committee on the examination of appointment of a rival Panchen Lama (the annual reports. second most holy position in the Tibetan religious order), in the place of the Tibet- Ordered that the report be printed. Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3571

Legal and Constitutional Legislation Fishing Industry Research and Development Act Committee 1987 Report International Sugar Agreement act 1978 Senator PANIZZA (Western Australia)— Rural industries research act 1985 On behalf of Senator Ellison, I present the Wheat Tax Act 1957 second report of 1996 of the Legal and Wheat Tax Act 1979 Constitutional Legislation Committee on the Wheat Tax (Permit) Act 1984 examination of annual reports. Wheat Tax (Permit) Collection Act 1984 Ordered that the report be printed. The proposed amendments to the Agricultural and PRIMARY INDUSTRIES AND Veterinary Chemicals (Administration) Act 1992 ENERGY LEGISLATION will ensure that the national registration authority for agricultural and veterinary chemicals (NRA) is AMENDMENT BILL (No. 2) 1996 required to comply with the policy directions of the Agricultural and Resource Management Council of First Reading Australia and New Zealand. This is in accordance Bill received from the House of Representa- with the principle of the Commonwealth, state, and tives. territory governments being equal partners in setting the policy direction of the national registra- Motion (by Senator Herron) agreed to: tion scheme for agricultural and veterinary chemi- That this bill may proceed without formalities cals. and be now read a first time. A number of the other proposed amendments are Bill read a first time. collectively concerned with the department of primary industries and energy’s management of Second Reading chemicals subject to import and export restrictions Senator HERRON (Queensland—Minister under international obligations such as the prior informed consent procedures. The obtaining of for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander information about chemical products from the NRA Affairs) (11.28 a.m.)—I table a revised is a factor in that management. The proposed explanatory memorandum and move: amendments will not place any additional reporting That this bill be now read a second time. burden on the chemical industry as the necessary information is already required to be provided to I seek leave to have the second reading the NRA. speech incorporated in Hansard Provision is also proposed for the NRA to be able Leave granted. to impose a fee for the issuing of certificates of The speech read as follows— export. Those certificates relate to requests from the chemical industry or importing countries to estab- The purpose of this bill is to introduce amendments lish the bona fides of a particular chemical product to the Agricultural and Veterinary Chemicals following evaluation of the product by the NRA. (Administration) Act 1992, the Agricultural and Appeal provisions to the administrative appeals Chemicals Code Act 1994, the Fisheries Manage- tribunal will be available to aggrieved applicants in ment Act 1991, the Farm Household Support Act the event of the NRA’s refusal to issue a certifi- 1992, the Imported Food Control Act 1992 and the cate. Quarantine Act 1908. The proposed amendments to the Agricultural and The bill further repeals the following inoperative Veterinary Chemicals Code Act 1994 clarify the acts: application of the compensation provisions under Apple and Pear Export Underwriting Act 1981 part 3 of the code. Those provisions apply when Beef Industry (Incentive Payments) Act 1977 certain information is provided on request to the NRA as part of the review of existing agricultural Coal Production (War-time) Act Repeal Act 1948 and veterinary chemicals. The related transitional Dairy Industry Stabilisation Act 1977 provisions have also been clarified. Dairy Industry Stabilisation Levy Act 1977 It is also proposed to introduce provisions to Drought Assistance (Primary Producers) Act streamline the issuing of national notices under the 1982 agvet codes. This will enable the NRA to issue one national notice rather than separate notices for each Fishing Industry Act 1956 jurisdiction, and represents improved efficiency for Fishing Industry Research Act 1969 the NRA. 3572 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

The amendment to the Fisheries Management Act regulations by failing to declare, or intentionally 1991 will provide that where there is an acquisition incorrectly declaring, goods of quarantine concern of property within the meaning of paragraph 31 of when entering australia. Initially the system will be section 51 of the constitution, reasonable compen- operated at all Australia’s international airports. sation or compensation as determined by the federal court, is payable. The system will allow the imposition of a penalty for relatively minor offences which, under existing The Farm Household Support Act 1992 is being arrangements, would not normally be able to be amended to ensure that the drought relief payment pursued through the courts. is payable to eligible farmers only within the period specified on the drought exceptional circumstances The existence of the system will be widely adver- certificate. This will ensure that drought relief tised and is expected to increase compliance with payments are used by eligible farmers to meet their Australia’s quarantine requirements and thus basic living expenses only during those periods of minimise the risk to australia’s agricultural indus- extreme drought. tries. The amendments to reinsert drought relief payment I commend the bill to honourable Senators. to section 43(1) are to correct previous consequen- tial amendments which erroneously omitted drought Debate (on motion by Senator Foreman) relief payment from this section. adjourned. The Farm Household Support Act 1992 is also being amended to exempt from the drought relief ASSENT TO LAWS payment income test any proceeds from the forced disposal of livestock. Message from His Excellency the Gover- The amendment will correct an anomaly in the nor-General was reported informing the existing legislation governing the payment of Senate that His Excellency had, in the name drought relief payment. of Her Majesty, assented to the following law: At present, for the purposes of the drought relief payment, if a farmer is forced to dispose of live- Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission stock due to extreme drought, the proceeds from Amendment Bill 1996 the forced sale are treated as income for the period in which they are received. COMMITTEES This means the proceeds are assessed under the income test for the drought relief payment. The Membership effect of this treatment is that the farmer may be Motion (by Senator Herron)—by leave— excluded from assistance under the drought relief payment or have his or her entitlement reduced. agreed to: Following this amendment all proceeds from the That senators be discharged from and appointed forced disposal of livestock will be excluded from to committees as follows: the income test for the purpose of the drought relief payment. Economics Legislation Committee The purpose of the amendment to the Imported Participating member: Senator Boswell. Food Control Act 1992 is to allow persons other than officers of the Australian Quarantine and Employment Education and Training Legislation Inspection Service (AQIS) to be appointed as Committee authorised officers. Substitute member: Senator Evans to replace The amendment will allow quarantine officers of Senator Crowley on 18 September 1996. the various state and territory departments of agriculture to be involved in the inspection of food Participating member: Senator Crowley for 18 imported into Australia. September 1996. AQIS anticipates a more effective and efficient Environment, Recreation, Communications and the service to clients as a consequence of the amend- Arts Legislation Committee ment as it minimises, where possible, the duplica- tion of inspection activities. Substitute members: The purpose of the amendment of the Quarantine Senator Campbell no longer to replace Senator Act 1908 is to provide for a system which allows Ian Macdonald from 18 September to 19 Septem- for the issue of penalty notices, which are better ber 1996 but to replace Senator Ian Macdonald known as on-the-spot fines, to persons alleged to for the consideration of the provisions of the have breached Australia’s Quarantine Act or Natural Heritage Trust of Australia Bill 1996. Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3573

BUDGET 1996-97 But, for cost reasons, and this was given as evidence to the inquiry, the Ranger uranium Consideration of Appropriation Bills by mine no longer requires all its workers in the Legislation Committees mine to wear even the film badges that I wore Meetings to the uranium mine during the recent hear- ings and visits. Only those people who are The DEPUTY PRESIDENT—Before I call virtually constantly working in restricted areas the minister to move the adjournment, I are required to wear them. In areas that are advise members of legislation committees that constantly dusty there are other requirements, the Community Affairs, Economics, and which include breathing apparatus, and I Employment, Education and Training Com- believe there are other hazardous areas within mittees will convene 15 minutes after the the mine and the mill which are not necessari- adjournment to examine proposed estimates ly related only to radiation. of expenditure. Full details of the location for each hearing appear on page 4 of today’s red. But statements about the doses that individ- The bells will be rung for five minutes before ual workers are subject to are made now on the committees are due to meet. The Finance averages only. This can mean that, if there is and Public Administration Committee will not an average of five, some people may be meet until 12.20 p.m. and will convene in getting eight or nine and some people may be committee room 1R1. getting two. Unfortunately most individual workers will not have an accurate record of ADJOURNMENT the doses of radiation they have received Motion (by Senator Herron) proposed: while working in the mines. That the Senate do now adjourn. I do not think there are many people more aware than me of the fact that being a politi- Ranger Uranium Mine cian is an unhealthy lifestyle. I am also aware Senator MARGETTS (Western Australia) that various forms of radiation occur from (11.32 a.m.)—This is the first opportunity, granite buildings. I am aware of the fact that apart from by way of personal explanation, I the natural environment is an area where there have had to deal with the issues that were is naturally occurring radiation. I do not tend brought up during question time today in to spend hours and hours on top of granite relation to the answer from the Minister for outcrops, but I am working in a building Resources and Energy, Senator Parer, to the which is made of various sorts of emitters of question by Senator Ferris. The issues that radiation; I am aware of that. were raised by way of a question on the I am also aware of the fact that flying in radiation levels at Ranger uranium mine were aircraft, which I do not particularly like in fact an effort to have a cheap shot and a bit doing, is not a particularly healthy thing to of a laugh at my expense. It is interesting. As do. There are of course levels of radiation I pointed out during my explanation, the which occur from that. In fact, I was interest- minister does owe me apologies and I will be ed in finding out just how unhealthy this expecting to receive those apologies in rela- lifestyle is. My initial inquiries about a year tion to the incorrect information he has given ago were to find out whether or not I could to the Senate. wear a cumulative dose meter for the whole But there is some further information that of the year and get it checked from time to is necessary to add to this. The workers at time to find out how unhealthy this lifestyle Ranger uranium mine—it was Ranger that is. was mentioned—do not have an accurate Senator Parer, during the course of today’s record of how much radiation they receive. very badly informed answer to Senator Ferris, The method currently being used at Ranger mentioned that I refused to get out of the bus. tends to be an average method. There is Yes; in the bottom of the pit of Ranger 1 ore equipment in various locations throughout the body, where there was still workings going mine which measure radiation. on, I did not actually get out of the bus, that 3574 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996 is true. At other areas of the mine site and be similar to the level of radiation you might around the mill, including the artificial wet- read from a granite outcrop does not necessa- lands to try to leach out the radiation, it is rily accord. You do not drink granite out- true that I did not get out of the bus; I made crops, but people are expected to drink water. a choice. We had had those issues explained. If the outcomes of mining or milling activities I had been with the rest of the committee are that radiation gets into the water system, members and taking copious notes during the then comparing it, for instance, to background briefings that we were given by the mine radiation of granite rock outcrops is immateri- staff. al. I think a number of people would agree As I say, you do not drink large granite with me that I was taking what is known as rocks in general, but people are being expect- basic radiological protection measures at the ed to drink water which may be contaminated. bottom of the pit. The protection measures Whether it is ground water through artificial were in relation to the possible inhalation or wetlands, in the end that water system will be ingestion of small particles of dust. The contaminated by radiation. If you create minister seemed not to understand the differ- artificial wetlands, then the soil itself is being ence between gamma rays and alpha emitters. deliberately contaminated by radiation by I understand that the actual background being some sort of filter to try to stop all of radiation in some of those areas that may that radiation going through into the ground have been dusty may not necessarily have water system. We are talking about wetlands been high. But, in the vicinity of a uranium here. mine, of course you are going to get uranium During our inquiries we did look at dust. You also may get remnants of thorium- Nabarlek. Once again, at Nabarlek there is 234, or thorium-230 or radium-226. waste rock, there is waste in the pit, but the There is a lot of dust around a mine, and I majority of radiation is still there. I think it is think it is eminently sensible for anybody not extremely important that people do have to deliberately breathe in that dust if they accurate information about the implications have a choice; that is, they can see what the for workers. We are adjusting them down all bottom of the pit, the mine and the mill look the time. like and they have had that explained to them, It is also important to understand that, and they choose not to get out of the bus for during the inquiry in Darwin, the Northern three minutes at the bottom of the pit. I do Territory government said if only a very not see why that was considered to be such an careful check of radiation at Ranger had have extraordinary thing. been done and that, if the check that was We also visited Rum Jungle. Perhaps I did done had not been done, the average radiation a less sensible thing at Rum Jungle, where levels would have been shown to be a lot there is no dust from a current mine. Of lower. I thought that was interesting. Why course, this mine was used long ago but it is would people coming to check the radiation still in a disgraceful condition. Much of the levels have a much higher reading? I asked radiation from almost any mine remains at the whether those people were wearing accurate mine site in the form of waste. The thorium- dose meters all the time and the answer was 234, thorium-230 and radium-226 are still yes, they were. So why did the people who there. Of course, when they mine for uranium came to check the mine end up with much they try to retrieve a large portion of the higher readings? The answer given was, uranium, but the larger portion of the radi- ‘Senator, that’s because they must have been ation remains at the mine site. staying in restricted areas much longer than It is also true that other areas within that the average worker.’ I find that amazing. region have high levels of recorded radiation. In visiting the four uranium mines, I It is also true that water courses within that thought it would be a useful piece of personal region have been contaminated. The fact that information to find out, even by staying in the the level of contamination in the water may bus, what level of exposure there was from Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3575 walking on Nabarlek, talking at the mine site Australian Film Commission. at Ranger—we only flew over the site for Australian Film, Television and Radio School. Jabiluka—and visiting the appalling mess of Australian Heritage Commission. Rum Jungle and Rum Jungle South. During Australian Institute of Criminology. those activities, yes, I did have with me a film Australian Law Reform Commission. badge, although I would have liked to have had a dose meter that showed me readings. Australian National Maritime Museum. (Time expired) Australian Nature Conservation Agency. Senate adjourned at 11.42 a.m. Australian Security Intelligence Organization. Australian Sports Commission. DOCUMENTS Australian Sports Drug Agency. Tabling Australian Telecommunications Authority (AUSTEL). The Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs (Senator Herron) tabled Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre. the following government documents: Bureau of Meteorology. Commonwealth Grants Commission—Report for 1995-96. Civil Aviation Safety Authority. Defence Force Remuneration Tribunal—Report Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions. for 1995-96. Commonwealth Law Enforcement Board. Native Title Act—Aboriginal and Torres Strait Department of Administrative Services and Islander Social Justice Commissioner—Report Portfolio agencies. for 1995-96 on the operation and effect of the Department of Communications and the Arts. Act. Department of Health and Family Services. Natural Resources Management (Financial Assistance) Act—National Landcare Advisory Department of the Environment, Sport and Committee—Report for 1995-96. Territories Ombudsman Act—Commonwealth and Defence Department of the Environment, Sport and Ombudsman—Report for 1995-96, including Territories—Antarctic Division. report pursuant to the Complaints (Australian Department of the Treasury. Federal Police) Act. Family Court of Australia. Remuneration Tribunal Act—Remuneration Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority. Tribunal—Report for 1995-96. Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commis- Social Security Act—Social Security Appeals sion. Tribunal—Report for 1995-96. Industrial Relations Court of Australia. Indexed Lists of Files International Air Services Commission. The following documents were tabled National Capital Authority. pursuant to the order of the Senate of 30 May National Crime Authority. 1996: National Film and Sound Archive. Indexed lists of departmental and agency files for the period 1 January to 30 June 1996— National Gallery of Australia. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commis- National Library of Australia. sion. National Museum of Australia. Administrative Appeals Tribunal. National Science and Technology Centre. Attorney-General’ Department. Office of Film and Literature Classification. Australia Council. Office of Parliamentary Counsel. Australia Post. Public Service and Merit Protection Commission. Australian Archives. Special Broadcasting Service Corporation. Australian Broadcasting Authority. Spectrum Management Agency. Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Telstra. Australian Federal Police. Treasury Portfolio agencies. 3576 SENATE Wednesday, 18 September 1996

QUESTIONS ON NOTICE make exceptions as outlined in the answer to part 2 of this question. (2) The State Governments have permitted the use of bullbars, and in fact Clause 96(8) of the The following answers to questions were Victorian Road Safety Act 1986 reads ‘Regulations circulated: made under this Act must not (a) prohibit the fitting of bullbars to motor vehicles’. (3) The Federal Office of Road Safety has Bullbars reviewed the Fatality File for 1992 which shows (Question No. 92) that of the 350 pedestrian fatalities in that year, 38 crashes involved vehicles fitted with bullbars. Of Senator Woodley asked the Minister these 38 crashes, there were 3 passenger cars, 12 representing the Minister for Transport and off-road vehicles, 4 utilities and 19 trucks. 101 Regional Development, upon notice, on 31 vehicles were not fitted with bullbars and there May 1996: were 173 vehicles for which the accident report did not record the presence or absence of bullbars. (1) Is it the case that the use of bullbars on cars and other vehicles is illegal under Federal Austral- It is not possible with the available data to ian Design Rule 42.9.1.1, or any other regulation determine whether the presence of bullbars in these or legislation. crashes was the predominant cause of fatalities. Pedestrian fatalities are the result of a complex set (2) Are the restrictions on the use of bullbars of factors and the relative contribution of each is being enforced by the State Governments. difficult to determine. (3) How many fatalities in Australia are assessed (4) A working group comprising Government as being predominantly due to the presence of authorities, industry representatives, road user bullbars. groups and researchers, is working towards resol- (4) Are there any proposals currently under ving the long standing debate over the effect of consideration to develop or enforce tighter restric- bullbars on pedestrians, and the more recent tions on the use of bullbars. concerns over their effect on crash performance of Senator Alston—The Minister for Trans- modern vehicles. port and Regional Development has provided There are design issues which need to be ad- the following answer to the honourable dressed. Some bullbars are unduly aggressive to senator’s question: pedestrians, with sharp edges and small diameter tubing. (1) Australian Design Rule 42 does not specifi- cally proscribe bullbars, but clause 42.9.1.1 seeks The bullbar working group is considering a to prohibit external and internal projections which proposal to develop an Australian Standard for the are not technically essential to the vehicle. The design and mounting of bullbars. The aim is to issue of whether or not a bullbar is technically ensure that bullbars will be designed to minimise essential hinges on the consideration of the environ- injury to pedestrians by attending to details such as ment in which the vehicle operates. Country drivers the shape and projection of the bullbar as well as argue strongly that a bullbar is essential for rural incorporating energy absorbing padding and operations. addressing concerns regarding any adverse effects of the crash performance of the vehicle. A more recent issue is the effect that bullbars may have on the crash performance of vehicles Australian Broadcasting Corporation required to comply with Australian Design Rule Publication 24 Hours 69/00—Full Frontal Impact Occupant Protection. The fitting of bullbars to vehicles after they have (Question No. 172) been sold to the market could compromise compli- Senator Sherry asked the Minister for ance with this rule. Some vehicle manufacturers Communications and the Arts, upon notice, have developed bullbar designs which do not on 12 August 1996: adversely affect the crash performance of vehicles. (1) What are the monthly sales figures for the The Australian Design Rules apply to the design Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s publication and construction of vehicles when first supplied to 24 Hours. the market in Australia. Regulation of the use of vehicles and associated equipment when they are (2) What was the total revenue and expenditure in service is the responsibility of the States and attributable to the publication for the 1995-96 Territories. Generally they require on-going compli- financial year. ance with the Australian Design Rules which app- (3) What were the principle expenditure items lied when the vehicle was manufactured, but can attributable to the publication. Wednesday, 18 September 1996 SENATE 3577

(4) (a) Did the publication make a profit or a loss The publication made a loss of $44,200 for the during the 1995-96 financial year, and (b) how 1995-96 financial year. much was the profit and loss. Defence Exports Senator Alston—The answer to the honour- (Question No. 173) able senator’s question is as follows: Senator Margetts asked the Minister (1) The monthly sales figures for 24 Hours in the representing the Minister for Defence Indus- 1995-96 financial year were: July $37,000, August $116,000, September $95,000, October $94,000, try, Science and Personnel, upon notice, on 14 November $67,000, December $70,000, January August 1996: $86,000, February $95,000, March $113,000, April With reference to the department’s Industry $86,000, May $99,000, June $74,000. Involvement and Contracting Division’s annual (2) report Exports of Defence and Related and Dual- Use Goods from Australia for the 1992-93, 1993-94 1995-96 Financial Year ($,000) and 1994-95 financial years: Revenue (1) Why, for tables 1-16, have details of the nature of defence exports and related and dual-use Sales Revenue (1029.6) exported goods not been included except for three Misc Income (3.0) broad categories under schedule 13. Total Revenue (1032.6) (2) Can a brief description be provided of the Cost of Goods Sold nature of each defence export, related and dual-use Printing 406.8 exports and their end-use, per country, the number Contributors 173.2 exported and approximate dollar value, as in table Type setting and design 44.8 1. Other .7 Senator Newman—The Minister for De- Total Cost of Sales 625.5 fence Industry, Science and Personnel has Salaries and On Costs 193.5 provided the following answer to the honour- Other Expenses able senator’s question: Advertising 22.7 (1) Expanding the Annual Report to include brief Selling and distribution 168.6 details of each export would require at least a Postage 27.1 single line to cover each shipment. Clearly such a Other 19.1 report would provide sufficient detail to identify the Total Other 237.5 individual exporters and thus would breach com- Internal Business Unit Charges 20.3 mercial confidentiality. Total Expenditure 1076.8 (2) In this case, it is not possible to meet Senator Loss44.2 Margetts’ request without breaching commercial confidentiality. Thus no further details along the (3) See above. lines requested by Senator Margetts will be provid- (4) (a) and (b) ed.