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SENATE Official Committee Hansard COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA SENATE Official Committee Hansard FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLA- TION COMMITTEE Consideration of Estimates WEDNESDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 1997 CANBERRA BY AUTHORITY OF THE SENATE CANBERRA 1997 INTERNET The Proof and Official Hansards of the Senate and the House of Representatives debates, and the Proof and Official Hansards of committee hearings are available on the Internet http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard CONTENTS WEDNESDAY, 12 NOVEMBER Parliament ............................................ 235 Department of The Senate ................................ 236 Joint House Department .................................. 258 Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet— Program 2—Government support services— Subprogram 2.1—Machinery of government ................ 344 Subprogram 2.1.2—Government Business .................. 346 Program 3—Corporate Services ........................... 348 Program 1—Departmental policy coordination— Subprogram 1.1—Economic and industry policy .............. 349 Subprogram 1.2.2—Status of women ...................... 361 Subprogram 1.2.3—Indigenous Affairs .................... 368 Program 7—Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Affairs ......... 381 Wednesday, 12 November 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 235 SENATE Wednesday, 12 November 1997 FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION LEGISLATION COMMITTEE Portfolios: Parliament; Prime Minister and Cabinet; Finance and Administration Members: Senator Gibson (Chair), Senator Murray (Deputy Chair), Senators Heffernan, Lundy, Ray and Watson The committee met at 9.05 a.m. PARLIAMENT Proposed expenditure, $416,000 (Document B) In Attendance Senator the Honourable Margaret Reid, President of the Senate Department of the Senate— Mr Harry Evans, Clerk of the Senate Ms Anne Lynch, Deputy Clerk of the Senate Mr Cleaver Elliott, Clerk Assistant (Committees) Dr Rosemary Laing, Clerk-Assistant (Procedure) Mr Peter O’Keeffe, Clerk Assistant (Corporate Management) Mr John Vander Wyk, Clerk Assistant (Table) Mr Robert Alison, Usher of the Black Rod Mr Graeme Nankervis, Director, Financial Management Ms Gabrielle Avery, Acting Director, Human Resource Management Joint House Department— Mr Michael Bolton, Secretary Mr Robert Wedgwood, Assistant Secretary, Building Management Mr Fraser Bradley, Assistant Secretary, Business Services Mr Adrian Guilfoyle, Chief Engineer Mr Michael Laugesen, Director, Financial Resources Mr Peter Richardson, Director, Facilities Mr John Rankin, Assistant Secretary, Building Management Department of Finance— Mr Bernie Hackett, Assistant Director, Central Agencies and Parliament Branch FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 236 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 12 November 1997 CHAIR—I declare open this public meeting of the Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee. On 30 October 1997 the following documents were referred to the committee for examination and report: particulars of proposed additional expenditure in relation to the parliamentary departments in respect of the year ending 30 June 1998, particulars of proposed additional expenditure for the service of the year ending 30 June 1998, particulars of certain proposed additional expenditure in respect of the year ending 30 June 1998, final budget outcome for 1996-97, and provision for running cost borrowings. The committee is required to consider the proposed expenditure, the provisions for running costs, the final budget outcome with respect to the parliamentary departments, the Prime Minister’s portfolio and the finance and administration portfolio and to report on or before 26 November this year. The committee will fix the date for the submission of written answers to questions taken on notice and the date of any supplementary hearing that may be required. We commence today with the Department of the Senate, followed by the Joint House Department. The parliamentary departments will be followed by the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, including ATSIC. We will proceed in the order as listed on the program circulated, concluding with ATSIC this evening. The Department of Finance and Administra- tion will be examined on Friday, 14 November. I propose to proceed by calling on the programs or subprograms as listed in the detailed program. [9.06 a.m.] DEPARTMENT OF THE SENATE CHAIR—I welcome the President and officers from the Department of the Senate. Do you have an opening statement that you would like to make? The PRESIDENT—No. CHAIR—Any questions? Senator ROBERT RAY—Can I go to the KPMG report and some issues associated with that? Firstly, we will go to the methodology because I think there has been a misunderstanding in the public at least via the press. As I understand, the process is a reconciled travel allowance and movement and where there is no actual evidence they then query the senator simply on the basis that they do not have any evidence. Is that right? Mr Evans—That is correct, yes. Senator ROBERT RAY—So any reports that there may have been 20 or 30 senators with unreconciled claims is really the problem at the administration end initially. Mr Evans—That is certainly the view that is taken. The view that is taken initially is that there is probably something wrong with the records of movement. Senator ROBERT RAY—Then the process is for the senator concerned to explain and give some evidence in return to justify their claim. Mr Evans—Yes, that is correct, if the senator has any. It is appreciated that senators may not necessarily have all the records available to them to do that. Senator ROBERT RAY—Then if it is unresolved I guess there are two possibilities: one is that a senator may have made a mistake and would repay. That would be one. The PRESIDENT—Yes. Senator ROBERT RAY—The second one would be that someone has to make a judgment as to whether the claim was valid or not if there is no repayment. FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION Wednesday, 12 November 1997 SENATE—Legislation F&PA 237 Mr Evans—The third possibility is that the records of movement are still defective and no conclusion can be drawn about the claim at all. Senator ROBERT RAY—I suppose a fourth option is that there will be a benchmark put in to say if there was anything systemic in the claims that could not be proven. Mr Evans—Exactly. If there were a pattern of discrepancies that would be significant. Senator ROBERT RAY—I guess the hard question, and the only other one in this specific area, is: where do you set that benchmark, Madam President? The PRESIDENT—My inclination would be to trust people, but it probably needs to be set somewhat more firmly than that. Senator ROBERT RAY—Somewhere just into double figures per year would tend to lead you from the accidental to the systemic problems at least, if not intent. The PRESIDENT—I think that is a bit hard to say. Mr Evans—We will not be asking the President to make that judgment. We will be looking at it as a department and attempting to make some judgment about that. Senator ROBERT RAY—When you wrote to us about this initially, Mr Evans, you indicated that the 1996-97 audit, the first letters either giving a correct weight or further quer- ies, would be in by September. That has not occurred, has it? Mr Evans—No. Senator ROBERT RAY—Can we have an explanation as to why? Mr Evans—Simply that the process is taking longer than was estimated at that time. Senator ROBERT RAY—It has been nothing to do with the absolute shambles and the abolished Administrative Services and sacking of hundreds of people? Mr Evans—No, it has not really had any connection with that. It is a matter of looking at the records of actual movement—that is, KPMG, in the first instance, putting together all the records of actual movement. Senator ROBERT RAY—When would you expect the 1996-97 period to be finalised, which will be your last involvement, I take it, because it has been moved to DoFA? Mr Evans—Yes, because it has been transferred. Do we have an estimate on when that might be? Mr O’Keeffe—We think that the reconciliation will probably be finished before the end of December. In other words, KPMG will have done their first reconciliation and second reconciliation, in a sense a series of reconciliations, to remove errors and so on, and before the end of December presented us with an indication of the senators who may have to be written to for further explanation. That sort of timetable would lead to the tabling of a final report normally in February but, because of the convention probably, early March. Senator ROBERT RAY—So if there is anything wrong you will let us know right in the middle of our holiday period—thanks for that. Mr Evans—I did not think senators ever took holidays. Senator COONEY—Can I ask some questions arising out of that—apropos your financial management. It says on page 88 of your annual report: Six internal audits were conducted during 1996-97 by the department’s contracted internal auditor, KPMG. The reports found that the departmental systems examined were generally operating at an efficient and effective level. FINANCE AND PUBLIC ADMINISTRATION F&PA 238 SENATE—Legislation Wednesday, 12 November 1997 Is it still the position that financial management was operating at an efficient and effective level? Mr Evans—Yes. Senator COONEY—On page 89 it states: Senators’ satisfaction with the services provided by the financial management section remained high. Mr Evans—That was indicated by the survey of senators. Senator COONEY—I suppose the issue of travel allowances is still alive to the extent that it was sent off to DAS but has ended up with Finance. Do you get the feeling that you are not going to have the level of advice we used to get from within the Senate department from Finance? If you prefer not to answer the question, don’t. Mr Evans—As I have pointed out before, the information on which travel allowance payments will be based still has to come from this department.
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