Vol. 756 Tuesday No. 38 14 October 2014

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Thames Tideway Project: Contingent Guarantees ...... 109 Housing: Private Rented Sector ...... 111 Money Laundering: UK Parliamentarians ...... 113 ISIL ...... 116 Leader of the House of Lords Bill [HL] First Reading...... 118 Deputy Chairmen of Committees Membership Motion ...... 119 Select Committees Membership Motion ...... 119 Arctic Committee Membership Motion ...... 119 Serious Crime Bill [HL] Report (1st Day) ...... 119 Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure Motion to Direct ...... 165

Grand Committee Infrastructure Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day)...... GC 31

Written Statements...... WS 15 Written Answers ...... WA 29

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The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative Con Ind Conservative Independent DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Lab Labour Lab Ind Labour Independent LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party

No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2014, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 109 Thames Tideway Project[14 OCTOBER 2014] Thames Tideway Project 110

Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, given the House of Lords Government’s work with Infrastructure UK, Thames Water and Ofwat to identify the exceptional risks for Tuesday, 14 October 2014. which the contingent financial support has been offered, what measures have the Government asked to be put 2.30 pm in place to minimise the likelihood of those risks and the resulting cost to the taxpayer? Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Truro. Lord De Mauley: My Lords, the latter half of my noble friend’s question is quite difficult to answer at Thames Tideway Project: Contingent this stage. The Written Ministerial Statement referred Guarantees to the contingencies covered by the support package. Question There are, for example, measures to deal with situations where claims exceed insurance cover, where economic 2.37 pm or political events affect access to debt finance, where there are exceptional cost overruns and where the IP Asked by Lord Berkeley goes into special administration. It allows for discontinuation in certain circumstances and deals To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they have with how value for money for taxpayers is to be indicated the availability of contingent guarantees achieved. I can assure noble Lords that we have kept in support of Thames Water; and whether this this to an absolute minimum to ensure a competitive complies with their policies on offshore financial process. instruments, governance and taxation. Lord West of Spithead (Lab): My Lords, will the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Minister confirm that Thames Water has now put in for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) place all the security measures that were required to (Con): My Lords, to be clear, the Government are not ensure that water supplies cannot be easily contaminated providing a contingent guarantee to Thames Water. or poisoned by terrorists? The Thames tideway tunnel project will be financed and delivered by a competitively tendered infrastructure provider which is an entirely separate entity to Thames Lord De Mauley: I cannot answer that specific Water. Details of a contingent government support question. I can say that it is Ofwat’s job to oversee package for this entity, which complies with all relevant exactly what each water company does, particularly government policies, were announced in a Written Thames Water. Ministerial Statement on 5 June. Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville (Con): Pursuant Lord Berkeley (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful to the to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord West, is Minister for that reply. Every week the Government my noble friend aware that on the Thursday of the tell us that they intend to outlaw aggressive taxation occupation of the Iranian embassy rather more than and leverage policies. The Minister says that Thames 30 years ago, the chairman of Thames Water was rung Water is not going to be in receipt of these funds but up by an anonymous caller on that morning and asked the Thames tideway tunnel project will be. Why are whether, if he received instructions to cut off the water they allowing that to be financed in a tax haven while to any of his customers, he would accept that order also promising it a government guarantee? Is there not implicitly? The chairman replied, “If it was the Iranian a conflict of interest here somewhere? embassy, yes; if it was any other customer of ours, no”. In my view, he demonstrated considerable knowledge of the international scene. Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I have comprehensively answered the noble Lord’s point about tax in earlier Lord De Mauley: I know that we are always grateful short debates on this subject. Perhaps we will come to my noble friend for his grasp of history. He was back to that later, but I will address his point about the there. On the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord appropriateness of offering a government support package. West, it is important enough that I will write to him. The contingencies covered by it are set out in the Written Ministerial Statement. It is common for Government to provide support of some kind to major Lord Grantchester (Lab): My Lords, we have heard infrastructure projects—for example, the PFI projects growing anxieties around certain facets of the water under the previous Government. The government support industry. Further to the specification and preparatory package here will cover low probability but high impact works notice regarding the Thames tideway tunnel risks that the market could not take on at a reasonable recently published, will the Government look again at cost to customers. The infrastructure provider will be the value-for-money condition to provide better clarity incentivised not to call on it and it will exist only concerning financial commitments for customers before during the construction phase. The important thing to agreeing contingent government support? bear in mind is that the infrastructure provider will pay for the cover. Furthermore, the financing for the Lord De Mauley: My Lords, I agree 100% with the project is sought competitively to help minimise the noble Lord that value for money for customers is cost—and that means the cost to customers. absolutely key and is an absolute focus of the Government. 111 Housing: Private Rented Sector[LORDS] Housing: Private Rented Sector 112

Housing: Private Rented Sector to about 3.8 years for an average tenancy, and 80% of Question private renters who have moved in the last three years ended their tenancy because they wished to move to 2.42 pm another property. Asked by Lord McKenzie of Luton Lord Morris of Handsworth (Lab): My Lords, will To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps the Minister tell the House to what extent the bedroom they will take to improve housing stability for those tax contributes to families being made homeless? renting in the private sector, particularly families.

Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, I beg Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Issues around the spare leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the room subsidy are well documented. The important Order Paper. In doing so, I draw attention to my principle behind that particular policy which should interest declared in the register. not be forgotten was to ensure that more rooms and more housing could be made available to those who The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department needed it. While that policy has caused some concern for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad in certain areas, currently we are demonstrably seeing of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, the Government are that the rooms that are being freed up are being avoiding the excessive red tape which would push up utilised. We are seeing more rooms being made available rents and reduce supply. We have recently published a to address the acute need and demand for housing. modeltenancyagreementtoencouragelonger,family-friendly tenancies. Our £1 billion Build to Rent fund will deliver up to 10,000 new homes for private rent, and our Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, the Minister referred housing guarantee schemes will attract long-term investors to the success of Build to Rent, in that it will have built into the market to increase choice, quality and stability some 10,000 homes by 2015. Do the Government have for renters. In responding to the Question, I, too, refer any plans to extend Build to Rent? Have they given the House to my entry in the register of interests. any thought to the creation of a housing investment bank, which could lend money and create more housing Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank the units in the private rented sector, thus giving greater Minister for his reply. We know that the demographics foundations to those who are renting by enabling them of those renting privately has been changing, with to stay in their homes at rents that they can afford? more families and children in the sector. However, for many, it is not through choice: they are priced out of Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My noble friend raises the private market and cannot secure a social home. an important point about expanding the rented sector. We know that it is the most expensive type of tenure He is correct that our £1 billion Build to Rent fund and that tenants are nine times more likely to move will provide development phase finance to large-scale than in other sectors. Of course, this is especially private rented sector developments, building up to disruptive to the education of children. While we note 10,000 new homes. Eight round 1 projects are now in from the model tenancy agreement that the Government contract, worth £124 million and delivering more than say that they now see the benefit of longer-term tenancies 1,600 new homes for private rent. He also asked about and some predictability on rent increases, why will other schemes and I have heard the suggestion that he they not legislate to give tenants the right to such put forward. The Government are currently supporting tenancies? What would the Minister say to a family the housing guarantee schemes, which are now open who want to stay put to have the peace of mind that for business and supporting up to £10 million-worth children can continue at the same school but have been of investment in large-scale private rented projects refused a longer-term tenancy on the lines of the and in additional affordable housing. For example, the Government’s model? delivery partner in our private rented housing debt guarantees has received a lot of strong interest. A Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, first, on the £500 million European Investment Bank loan facility final point, I totally agree with the noble Lord on the for affordable housing debt guarantees, which was need for long-term tenancies to ensure the education announced on 7 January this year, has attracted eight of children. As a father of three, that is something to borrowers. So there are a variety of schemes that the which I can relate personally. However, I take issue Government are supporting and promoting to ensure with the suggestion about the private rented sector in that we address this very important need. terms of cost. If we just examine some of the facts, private sector rents have actually fallen in real terms every single year through this Government in England, The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, I am including in London. If you account for inflation, for grateful to the Minister for his assurance that the example in London they have risen by 1.1%. Average Government are aware of the needs of families in rents are down in real terms: inflation was 1.6% for the relation to the length of tenure for tenancies. Is the year to March, while rents grew by just 1%. Minister also cognisant of the needs of retired persons, On the issue of length of tenancies, while I hear the where length and stability of tenancy are important point made by the noble Lord that the length of not only for their well-being in old age but also for tenancies could be increased through legislation, practice their contribution to the communities where they are has shown that tenancy lengths have increased by 6%, living in a sustainable way? 113 Housing: Private Rented Sector[14 OCTOBER 2014] Money Laundering 114

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The right reverend of “Politically Exposed Persons” in the European Prelate again raises an important point at the other Commission’s proposed fourth Money Laundering end of the age spectrum, and the Government are very Directive. much cognisant of ensuring stability for residents and that their needs are met. One thing on which we are clear is our approach to the private rented sector, The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord through landlords, through providing greater protection Deighton) (Con): My Lords, while UK parliamentarians and a greater sense of professionalism for both landlords are not currently considered to be “politically exposed and agents. We are also helping provide an increased persons”—or PEPs—domestically, revised global level of guidance to tackle any perceived rogue landlords standards to which the UK is fully committed will and making more help available to tenants in this require that they are treated as such. These global particular sector. standards require enhanced due diligence and ongoing monitoring only when the business relationship is Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, I assessed as high risk. The UK will make representations think some Members of your Lordships’ House were when negotiating the fourth money laundering directive a little surprised by the figures that the Minister produced to ensure that it reflects these standards. in relation to average rent increases, particularly in London. Will he tell the House where those statistics Lord Clement-Jones (LD): My Lords, I am afraid have come from and who produced them? that my noble friend’s response is only partly reassuring. Even before the fourth directive has come in, many Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Our statistics come Members of this House and their relatives are being from a variety of sources, but I will write to the noble treated as PEPs. I myself and my son were unable to Baroness on that— access an ATM and my brother was unable to exercise a joint power of attorney. What steps is the Treasury Noble Lords: Oh! taking to show Members of Parliament in both Houses that in future they will not be treated in exactly the Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: Noble Lords may laugh, same way as a deposed dictator or a political pariah? but I have the figures in front of me which I quoted. The noble Baroness raises an important point about the verification of sources and I shall, of course, Lord Deighton: My Lords, the key here is in the inform the House accordingly. approach of the banks in doing their due diligence appropriately. The main feature of these arrangements Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, is my is that domestic PEPs should be assessed in terms of noble friend satisfied with the asymmetric treatment their level of risk, and in the main UK parliamentarians of tax relief on mortgage interest for buy-to-let landlords, should be assessed as low risk and, frankly, treated in which has the effect of forcing up prices and thus precisely the same way as any other customer. The giving them an advantage over private buyers and problem is when banks do not apply the right kind of ultimately pushing up rents? risk-based assessment and instead revert to inappropriate box-ticking approaches. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The Government have shown, through the various schemes which have been Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, perhaps launched recently, our commitment to ensure that the Minister will explain that to the clearing banks in more people can engage with the property ladder. For this country. Perhaps he could explain why my daughter, example, a recent scheme that my noble friend may be who was then aged 12, was required to appear with her aware of is that of rent to buy. Some £400 million is driving licence and a utility bill in her name in order to being made available to allow people to rent now and be allowed to have a savings account with no more buy later. As he knows, we have also introduced the than 40 quid in it. Help to Buy scheme, which is helping 53,000 new households. He made the important point that perhaps some people would be gaining more perceived benefits. Lord Deighton: I absolutely accept the criticisms He may well be satisfied with the point I would put to that are made where banks behave disproportionately. him: that through our initiatives the Government are It happens too often and we should work with them to demonstrably ensuring that the ability to purchase fix that. I will certainly undertake to look at the your first home is being made more widely available. revised guidance that will be coming out as part of these arrangements to ensure that the banks take a proper, risk-based approach which is sensitive to the Money Laundering: UK real risks involved in these transactions. I would encourage Parliamentarians Members to follow up with their banks when there is a Question problem. It is appropriate to complain to the Financial Ombudsman Service, which is a facility that we have in 2.50 pm place. I took the liberty of looking at the number of Asked by Lord Clement-Jones complaints about PEPs received by the financial ombudsman. I think that there were around 50 in 2013 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they and 30 this year out of a total of half a million will make representations about the inclusion of complaints. However, I encourage Members to pursue United Kingdom parliamentarians under the definition their interests. 115 Money Laundering[LORDS] ISIL 116

Lord Wright of Richmond (CB): My Lords, is the Lord Levene of Portsoken (CB): My Lords— Minister aware, although I rather doubt whether he is, that my two sons coincidentally tried to open bank The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) accounts in Singapore and in New York? In both cases (Con): My Lords, if we can be brief we will hear from they were asked who their father was, and on discovering the Cross Benches and then from the Liberal Democrats. that I was a Member of this House, were both refused Lord Levene of Portsoken: My Lords, the Minister accounts. started his remarks by saying that those of us in this Lord Deighton: It is always difficult for me to comment House should have little to worry about. I have to say, on individual cases. I think that Members are making from personal experience of having an account in their points very clearly, with a variety of illustrations France to look after the small needs of the home that I that I absolutely take on board. I will certainly follow own there, that one is treated as if it were the Spanish up with the banks domestically through the Joint Inquisition. They really do not want to know any Money Laundering Steering Group, which provides differently. Can the Minister give an assurance to the the guidance. We are trying to strike a balance that House that he will convey to his colleagues in Europe makes it impossible for corrupt politicians, terrorists that these rules are meant to be applied reasonably and criminals to go about their business but which and not draconically? leaves the rest of us unimpeded to go about our lives in Lord Deighton: I can confirm that that will be a normal way. precisely the message in the final negotiations on the Lord Flight (Con): My Lords, the position of Members fourth money laundering directive. of this House and of the Commons is far worse than Lord Razzall: My Lords, I am sure that the Minister the Minister suspects. Some 150,000 people are rated will accept that his answers have not entirely reassured as PEPs in this country, covering virtually all Members Members of this House who are treated as politically of this House and the House of Commons, including exposed persons. Perhaps he can explain to me and to all spouses and all children. Wearing a hat as a banker many of my colleagues who are not members of the I would add that, worst of all, banks are required to Government: what is it that we might do, or what look at every transaction in the account of a PEP, might be done to us, that makes us politically exposed both in and out, to satisfy themselves that they are people? proper transactions. The world of PEPs is by no means limited to just those who someone thinks are Lord Deighton: The thing to remember is that although high risk. It covers virtually everybody and is completely the intention behind this approach is to catch potentially out of control. corrupt public officials around the world, defining someone as a PEP is not an end in itself—it is merely a Lord Deighton: My noble friend is correct that the trigger point at which an assessment should be made PEP definition includes close family members and of the individual’s business and whether it is high risk. business associates. I go back to the original point that It is that assessment of whether it is high risk that is it is not within the banks’ responsibility to look at not working well enough at the moment. every transaction of a domestic PEP; they should be assessing whether that PEP is high risk. If the PEP is Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): My Lords, is it not not high risk, the banks should treat them like every clear that the House is struggling with two concepts: other customer. That is where we need to focus our on the one side, that the Minister might be right; and efforts to correct this problem. on the other, that something good might come out of Europe? On this occasion, both things obtain. Lord Soley (Lab): My Lords, I do not think that the Minister has taken on board the full range of problems, Lord Deighton: I am not sure that there is a particular as other companies also put an unreasonable interpretation answer to that. I think that I have been extremely clear on this requirement. I am far from convinced that the about what we are trying to accomplish. I accept way it has operated has at any time been useful in where the challenges are and I accept that we need to stopping money laundering, and we need to take a do a lot of work with the banks on the implementation much harder look at it. It would be far better to look of the rules to make sure that they are proportionate. at other methods of checking for money laundering than simply asking for a person’s occupation and then ISIL declaring that they may therefore be a risk. Question Lord Deighton: First, my Lords, I need to make the 3pm point that having an effective, comprehensive, international Asked by Lord Avebury campaign against money laundering is a critical weapon for us, and we are taking leadership in this area. I To ask Her Majesty’s Government what additional absolutely accept that the implementation domestically measures they are suggesting to allied states to needs to be significantly refined. As I have already prevent ISIL occupying further territory in Syria said, I will work with the FCA and the industry bodies and Iraq. to ensure that we have a more proportionate application The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth of the rules. Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My Lords, Baroness O’Cathain (Con): My Lords— we are working closely with allies to deliver a sustained, comprehensive strategy to degrade and defeat ISIL. Lord Razzall (LD): My Lords— We welcome the recent decisions of Canada, the 117 ISIL[14 OCTOBER 2014] Leader of the House of Lords Bill [HL] 118

Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark to join air strikes becoming a fertile breeding ground for IS? Will she say against ISIL. The Foreign Secretary continues to a word also about the position of the Yazidis, Christian emphasise to our counterparts the need collectively to minorities and others, who are without adequate squeeze ISIL’s finances, to provide appropriate support accommodation as the winter months now approach? to moderate forces in Iraq and Syria, and to work for an inclusive Government in Baghdad and political Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, there are transition in Syria. two different strands there; I will refer to the humanitarian effort first. Clearly, as winter draws in fast, the Lord Avebury (LD): My Lords, we are about to humanitarian effort has to be directed at preventing witness genocide, with the Daesh terrorists slaughtering people from dying of hypothermia. It is a most serious thousands of Kurds in the besieged city of Kobani. matter. I know that DfID has clearly worked hard on Cannot the coalition airdrop military and humanitarian that, and, I understand, so have our partners. I discussed supplies to the defenders, as it has done in Iraq? If the those matters with the president of the International Turks cannot help us by allowing use of airbases, as Committee of the Red Cross when I was in Geneva was suggested by Susan Rice yesterday, could they not last month. With regard to the way in which minorities at least allow the coalition to place observers on the have suffered in the existing crisis, it is clear that life in border, so that the air strikes that we are mounting the whole area for Christians and other minorities is against ISIS in Kobani can be directed by observers deeply distressing. We certainly discussed repeatedly on the ground? with the Government of Iraq how that might be resolved. I can say to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My noble friend points when Foreign Office Ministers visit the region, they to a situation in Kobani which deeply concern us all. always meet the Christian communities to discuss Naturally, we are watching developments very closely. their concerns. My honourable friend Mr Ellwood, in Turkey is already playing an important role in our his visit at the end of August, specifically raised the coalition effort against ISIL, particularly through its persecution of Christians with the then Foreign Minister humanitarian support in the region—my noble friend Zebari and other senior officials. It is something that referred to that work, which I am sure will continue we take very seriously. and intensify. Turkey is also assisting in providing support to the Syrian moderate opposition. Therefore The Archbishop of Canterbury: My Lords, I thank we welcome Turkey’s support for the air strikes in the noble Baroness for her last answer, which was very Syria and Iraq, and the President of Turkey’s affirmation reassuring. However, given that the terrible events in that he and his country are willing to play their part in Iraq and Syria are the result of a global phenomenon the military campaign. My noble friend is right to of ideology, what steps are the Government taking to press us to look further at how we might discuss with support other areas such as Nigeria, Kenya, Somalia, Turkey where that direction of help may develop. I am Pakistan and Sudan where similar problems need to grateful to him for raising those issues today. be either prevented, mitigated or contained? Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords, the Foreign Secretary told the Telegraph yesterday that Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, this is a there was a legal basis for air strikes in Syria—not just matter that I discussed this very morning with a group in Iraq, where there is no doubt—but as there is no set up by my noble friend Lady Warsi at the Foreign Security Council resolution and no question of self- Office. She did most important work; the group is defence, on what doctrine of international law do the considering freedom of religion or belief. I can say Government depend? firmly not only that this is one of the six priorities for this Government, but, as when my noble friend Lady Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, with regard Warsi led on this, it is a personal priority for me to to Iraq, the position was set out clearly in the recall of ensure that throughout government and throughout Parliament, and my noble friend the Leader of the our discussions, we consider exactly those points. It is House repeated that. With regard to Syria, there are not just a matter of looking at one area but of considering arguments that there is a legal basis in international how a breaking down of religion or belief around the law; namely, where there is a humanitarian disaster, world can undermine the very societies in which people action may have to be taken. What I can say clearly is need to have security. exactly what the Prime Minister and the Leader of this House have said; that is, if we get to a position where it is felt appropriate to move to further engagement and Leader of the House of Lords Bill [HL] if there is a knowledge ahead, a premeditation, of First Reading taking further action, then nothing will be done unless the Government return to Parliament to have that 3.07 pm matter considered. A Bill to amend the Ministerial and other Salaries Act Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, in her 1975 in order to increase the maximum number of reply, the Minister mentioned the importance of an salaries payable to Secretaries of State; and to make inclusive Government in Baghdad. Given the number provision about the Leader of the House of Lords. of Sunni Muslims who have been antagonised by the kinds of policies that have been pursued in the past, The Bill was introduced by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, can she say what more is being done to prevent them read a first time and ordered to be printed. 119 Deputy Chairmen of Committees[LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 120

Deputy Chairmen of Committees (2) For the purpose of obtaining information to help it in carrying out its functions under section 10A the court may at any Membership Motion time order an interested person to give it information specified in the order. 3.08 pm (3) An order under this section may require all or a specified part of the information to be given in a specified manner and Moved by The Chairman of Committees before a specified date. That Lord Taylor of Holbeach be appointed a (4) If an interested person fails without reasonable excuse to comply with an order under this section the court may draw such member of the panel of Deputy Chairmen of inference as it believes is appropriate. Committees, in place of Baroness Anelay of St Johns. (5) Subsection (4) does not affect any power of the court to deal with the person in respect of a failure to comply with an Motion agreed. order under this section. (6) If the prosecutor accepts to any extent an allegation made by an interested person— Select Committees (a) in giving information required by an order under this Membership Motion section, or (b) in any other statement given to the court in relation to 3.08 pm any matter relevant to a determination under section 10A, Moved by The Chairman of Committees the court may treat the acceptance as conclusive of the That Lord Taylor of Holbeach be appointed a matters to which it relates. member of the following Committees, in place of (7) For the purposes of this section an allegation may be Baroness Anelay of St Johns: Administration and accepted in a manner ordered by the court. Works, Privileges and Conduct, Procedure and (8) If the court makes an order under this section it may at any Selection. time vary it by making another one. (9) No information given by a person under this section is admissible in evidence in proceedings against that person for an Motion agreed. offence.””

Arctic Committee The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Membership Motion Office (Lord Bates) (Con): My Lords, in Committee there was a helpful debate on the provisions in Clauses 1 3.09 pm to 4, which relate to third-party interests in assets subject to a confiscation order. There was general Moved by The Chairman of Committees agreement that the current arrangements for considering That Baroness Neville-Jones be appointed a member third-party interests are not sufficiently robust, allowing of the Select Committee in place of Lord Ashton of defendants to drag out and frustrate the enforcement Hyde, resigned. of confiscation orders. The Bill addresses this by bringing forward the determination of third-party interests from Motion agreed. the enforcement stage to the confiscation hearing and conferring new powers on the court to make binding determinations as to the extent of any third-party Serious Crime Bill [HL] interests. Report (1st Day) As part of this process, Clause 2 creates a requirement for the prosecutor to detail any known third-party interest in property associated with the defendant in 3.09 pm their statement of information. That includes any interests that the defendant may have in companies, Clause 2: Provision of information trusts, bank accounts and property. The defendant will then be under a duty to respond to every allegation in the prosecutor’s statement for which information Amendment 1 has been supplied and the extent to which each allegation Moved by Lord Bates is accepted. Where an allegation is disputed, the defendant must provide full details of any matters relied on. 1: Clause 2, page 3, line 3, at end insert— “( ) After that section insert— That is a very wide-ranging power, and the court may order the provision of any information from the “18A Provision of information as to defendant’s interest in property prosecutor or the defendant that it believes it requires. (1) This section applies if the court— The court may then use that information to make a determination at the confiscation stage as to the (a) is considering whether to make a determination under section 10A of the extent of the defendant’s interest in defendant’s interest in property. In making such a any property, or determination, the court will, by extension, also be (b) is deciding what determination to make (if the court has ruling on the extent of any third-party interests in the decided to make a determination under that section). relevant assets. In this section “interested person” means a person (other As my noble friend Lord Taylor said in Committee, than the defendant) who the court thinks is or may be a there was general welcome for the provisions, but the person holding an interest in the property. noble Baroness, Lady Smith, questioned whether more 121 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 122 could be done to address the problem. Having reflected The key issue for the Joint Committee was the on the debate, we agree that there is one further step ability of the police, prosecutors and the courts to that can usefully be taken further to enhance the move swiftly to ensure that there were some assets to court’s powers. Amendments 1 and 14 now provide the confiscate on securing a conviction. This means that court with the power to order an interested person, when the police are about to act, they have to enable such as someone making a claim against the defendant’s prosecutors to go to the court to try to freeze assets, property, to provide the court with any information not only to secure proceeds but to prevent those assets that the court believes necessary to determine the being used for criminal purposes. It is far from clear in defendant’s interest in the property. the Bill how this is to be achieved. Can the Minister Conferring such a power on the courts will further point me in the direction of provisions that effectively strengthen the provisions to tackle bogus third-party allow this early intervention to safeguard assets for claims. It is unlikely to be necessary for a court to confiscation? What work has been undertaken on the order an individual with a legitimate claim to provide non-legislative means, especially with the police and information—it is in that person’s interest to do so on prosecutors, to ensure that the previous practices are their own initiative. The amendments are, however, put to one side and that their behaviour and conduct aimed at individuals who are attempting to make are changing more in line with the need to confiscate spurious claims on behalf of—in all likelihood, in such assets? What confidence can we have, when we collusion with—a defendant to protect an asset from come to consider the Modern Slavery Bill, that the Bill confiscation. Those individuals are unlikely to want to before us has been toughened up sufficiently to improve co-operate with the court by providing a witness statement the prospects of securing the proceeds of crime for the unless compelled to do so. If a person fails without benefit of victims? reasonable cause to comply with an order to provide Can the Minister also explain why he thinks that information to a court, it may draw such inference as the government amendment on third party goes far it believes is appropriate. Thus, for example, if a third enough to secure control over third-party holdings of party fails to provide information substantiating their criminal assets? Asking people who are sophisticated alleged interest in property that the prosecution believes criminals to provide information about the transfer of is wholly owned by the defendant, the court will be assets to them is hardly likely to produce much in the able to draw the conclusion that the property in question way of assets for victims. Why cannot the police and is indeed 100% owned by the defendant. prosecutors seek restraint on suspicion of asset transfers I trust that the House will agree that that represents or shared use at a much earlier stage in the proceedings? a sensible addition to the court’s powers to ensure that I accept that the transfer of assets abroad poses more the effective and timely enforcement of confiscation difficult jurisdictional issues, but should we not be orders is not deflected by spurious third-party claims. raising this issue while this Bill is before the House, I will respond to Amendment 4, which is grouped, rather than waiting for the Modern Slavery Bill? Many once the House has had the opportunity to hear from of us who were on the Joint Committee will assuredly the noble Baroness, Lady Smith. For the time being, I be raising these issues if we do not think that the beg to move Amendment 1. committee’s report has had an adequate response. To sum up, I suggest that the Bill leaves too many 3.15 pm questions unanswered about a more credible system Lord Warner (Lab): My Lords, I support my noble for restraining the disposal of criminal assets before friend’s amendment. I apologise to the House for not conviction. That is why my noble friend’s amendment being able to participate in the earlier stages of the is so helpful; I think it helps the Government off a Bill. I am doing so now mainly as a result of my hook. The Home Secretary has made it clear that the membership of the Joint Committee on the draft Modern Slavery Bill is a flagship Bill for her, so I do Modern Slavery Bill, which will be coming to this not think that she will be desperately pleased if we get House later in the Session. The Minister may recall to the consideration of that Bill and find that we have that the Joint Committee made a number of blundered over these provisions when we get there. recommendations to improve asset recovery, given what I might describe as the lacklustre performance in this area under the 2002 Proceeds of Crime Act, which Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, perhaps was heavily criticised by the Public Accounts Committee. I should have spoken to my Amendment 4 before the In the Government’s response to the Joint Committee’s noble Lord, Lord Warner, but I first want to welcome report, they said that the regime in the 2002 Act would the noble Lord, Lord Bates, to his new position. I be strengthened through this Bill and that they would know that it is not easy taking over in the middle of a use what they called, Bill. I congratulate him on the amendments that he “a range of non-legislative proposals to improve performance”. has brought forward and on some of the measures They committed to implementing most of the committee’s mentioned in his comments. I know he listened to the legislative recommendations through a combination comments that we made in Committee. We spend a lot of this Bill and the Modern Slavery Bill. I have some of time on Home Office matters in your Lordships’ concerns that the Bill before us does not really cut the House, and I am sure that we shall spend many happy mustard in terms of protecting proceeds of crime for hours debating this Bill and others. the benefit of victims under the Modern Slavery Bill. I We debated this issue at some length in Committee do not want a situation where, when this House gets to because nothing can be more important in this area the Modern Slavery Bill, we are told that we have not than ensuring that proceeds of crime legislation is done all we should under the Serious Crime Bill. properly enforced. As I said at the time, we support 123 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 124

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] I shall not go into detail on those matters that we many of the measures in the Bill, but we want to have discussed previously but I want to focus on three encourage the Government to use this opportunity to areas that we think the consultation could take note of make the Bill as effective as it can possibly be. I shall and improve. The first is the importance of early not go into the detail of what we raised and discussed disclosure of third-party interests. The value of the in Committee, other to say that the systems as a whole, money that is eventually confiscated is eroded when including confiscation orders and restraint orders, are people other than the defendant crop up and say, not working as well as they should. I think that was “Actually, that property being confiscated is mine, or the point being made by my noble friend Lord Warner. partly mine, and not the defendant’s”. Sometimes that We are not really recovering enough of criminals’ ill will be genuine; equally, it is not unknown for it to be a gotten gains. We can do better. ploy drummed up by the defendant. The practitioners have told us that this happens because the confiscation The noble Lord, Lord Bates, will be aware that in process is so lengthy and strung out that it ends up Committee my noble friend Lord Rosser and I went giving criminals plenty of time to be inventive in into a number of reasons why we feel the system is so looking at ways to drum up bogus claims. It is very ineffective and how it could be improved. These are quick to tell the truth but it takes much longer to be some of the areas. The evidential threshold for freezing imaginative. the subjects’ assets is very high and the cost to the CPS can be prohibitive. As we have heard, criminals often At the moment, third-party claims are not addressed move their money overseas. There are those who try to at the confiscation stage in the Crown Court. They get move their money once they know that they are under heard afterwards, at a different stage, in the High investigation, and there are sophisticated criminals Court. The Bill seeks to address this by ending the working here who have complex labyrinths of companies split jurisdiction between the Crown and High Courts. and transactions to try to hide the money. Moreover, Under the Bill, third-party claims will be determined confiscation orders are often an afterthought and the by the Crown Court at confiscation stage. Clauses 1 to penalties for non-payments are not enough of a deterrent. 4 introduce requirements for prosecutors to set out Recoverable assets, including the third-party interests, any known details of third-party interests in the statement are not identified early enough. There is a lack of of information that they provide to the court and for leadership and strong incentives for the agencies involved the defendant to detail any known third-party claims in applying for and enforcing confiscation orders and, in response to the prosecutor’s statement. The court as we have heard, it is incredibly difficult to recover then has the power to determine the extent of any assets from overseas. third-party interests in the defendant’s property, prior to making the confiscation order. It is good that that At the time, we tabled a number of amendments to determination will be binding but we went further in address those specific areas. They were probing our amendments in Committee, one of which suggested amendments, as we wanted to try to stimulate the giving the court the power to order the defendant to debate and make some progress but also to prioritise provide information at any time under an order and those issues on which we felt serious progress could be details of any third-party interests in property. made in the Bill. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Bates, The Government took that on board and we welcome that at the time I was disappointed by the answers the amendment the Minister has spoken to. Where a from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, as the then Minister. third party unreasonably fails to comply with the I felt that he was not really willing to engage to find order, the court will be able to draw the appropriate ways to improve the Bill. I am delighted by the noble inference. In our amendment we suggested a specific Lord’s comments today that I was at least partially time delay of 21 days, but there is no time in the wrong—if not entirely, unfortunately—because the government amendment. What would be the time Government have considered one of our amendments period here before the court can draw any inference and I am pleased to see some amendments put down from not providing that information? Will it be set out before us today. in secondary legislation or by order, and will they also have to notify the prosecutor of any change in At this stage of the Bill, we did not want to retable a circumstances—which is something we also suggested whole raft of amendments that we felt could be helpful at the time. but there is still an opportunity to improve matters here. We could do better than what we have here and I also assume that there will not be a reciprocal there is an opportunity to consider further some of the duty on the prosecutor and that the details of the points we raised in Committee. Our amendment is a investigation will not have to be disclosed to the defendant, single amendment, which asks for a wider consultation but it would be helpful if that could be confirmed or if to be undertaken on a number of ways in which we the Minister could tell me if I have misunderstood and can improve the system as a whole. We have taken if that is incorrect. advice on this and spoken to those who are practitioners, have been involved and have given advice. There are I also want to check whether the Minister has given things we could do better to really make a difference, any further thought to providing such a power to the so while we support many of the measures here and court at the restraint stage. When I spoke in Committee, appreciate the amendment, we could be more effective. I quoted the impact assessment, which said: The fact that the Government have already taken on “In many cases third party claims are made at a relatively late some of our suggestions indicates that room for progress stage in proceedings and are deliberately used to frustrate confiscation remains. investigations”. 125 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 126

In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said co-operate with us to return criminal assets, but the that it was not appropriate to bring the determination process by which they would have to do so is quite of third-party interests back to restraint stage. The difficult and drawn out, and they may not have much reason he gave was that not all defendants were made experience or expertise in doing so. subject to a restraint order and not all restraint orders There is an example on page 5 of the fact sheet that lead to confiscation orders. That is an entirely valid is quite useful in illustrating that. So we have included point and we accept that. That is why it would be in the consultation proposal a legal obligation to helpful for the further consultation that we are proposing repatriate liquid assets subject to a restraint or confiscation to work through those points—which are important, order that have been removed overseas. When we crucial and very valid—to make sure that assets are tabled this in Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, not dissipated before we are even able to do anything said that the Proceeds of Crime Act already allows the about it. court to make any order that it believes is appropriate The second point made in Committee which could for the purpose of ensuring that the restraint order is make a lot of difference is the costs to the CPS of effective. But it is not being effective; time and again seeking to obtain a restraint order. One of the issues the issue is the ability to enforce any order. raised with us by practitioners is that when an application is unsuccessful, the prosecution is liable for the legal costs of the defendant. The CPS is undergoing cuts of 3.30 pm 27% to its budget over the course of this Parliament. If there is going to be any significant progress, we Obviously prosecutors want to minimise any risk of need to improve the way—perhaps we should look at what could be an expensive failure. In Committee, the different strategies or structures—in which we co-operate noble Lord, Lord Taylor, told us that it would not with overseas jurisdictions. First, we want them to be apply in most cases because the orders are obtained ex well disposed to us, in order that they will want to parte. That is correct, but we have looked into this co-operate and look again at the processes. One of the further and, of course, not all orders are obtained ex problems of their not being co-operative—and again parte. If an order is obtained ex parte, it is more likely this is revealed in Parliamentary Answers from the to be appealed and significant costs can be racked up Home Office to the shadow Attorney-General—is on appeal. that despite UK courts freezing more than £200 million The amendments that we tabled in Committee at the request of overseas jurisdictions, not a single suggested that defendants should be able to recover penny of this has been repatriated to the country costs at legal aid rates only when an application requires asking for the money. So we are asking other countries an individual who has succeeded in setting aside a to do for us something that we are not very good at restraint order to pay his or her own costs. But if the doing for them. alternative is to put the cost risk on to the prosecutor, Since 2010, only two bilateral agreements have been there will be an inevitable dampening effect on the signed with overseas jurisdictions to ensure co-operation appetite for large-scale restraining orders, which is on mutual legal assistance. So the UK is seen as being clearly not in the public interest. If I recall correctly, slow to respond to requests for mutual legal assistance, the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said in Committee that if it responds at all. The UKCA, the part of the Home the Government would look into this and draw it to Office that receives the requests, was restructured in the attention of the Ministry of Justice. Has there 2007 following criticism from lawyers and the Financial been any further thinking on this issue? What was the Action Task Force on Money Laundering that it was response from the Ministry of Justice? slow to respond to requests. Jeremy Carver, a lawyer and senior adviser to Transparency International UK, The third point concerning deficiencies in the system has been quoted as saying that little has changed since is that we seek further consideration on the enforcement he told a House of Commons Select Committee in of orders against assets located abroad. This is perhaps 2001 that other countries “dread” having to make a one of the most important issues in the whole proceeds request to the UKCA. Our ability to get other countries of crime debate. Practitioners tell us that this is one of to co-operate with us is being made all the more the key problems that they face. Criminals hide their difficult because we are not good at co-operating with ill-gotten gains overseas. In an FOI response to the them. shadow Attorney-General’s office, the Serious Fraud Office revealed that £37 million of its £106 million of The former head of SOCA’s financial intelligence unpaid confiscation orders is thought to be located unit said: overseas. “When an investigation is initiated from the victim country and monies are suspected to be in the UK, the requests go out Criminals are pretty savvy.When they have substantial through all the proper channels, but there’s no great keenness to assets, they often seek to put them where the UK comply … The mindset is that we’ll just be giving ourselves a authorities are least likely, and will find it hardest, to headache … This could be abused by a corrupt official as the recover them. That usually means a jurisdiction with chances of them losing their assets in the UK are getting slimmer”. which the UK has no standing mutual co-operation Clearly, we need to do much more to have far better agreements. Even where that is not the case, without reciprocity at international level. mutual recognition of confiscation orders in the We raised this issue in Committee, though not in jurisdiction where the assets have been hidden, those such detail, and responses from the then Minister were charged with enforcing the orders effectively have to a bit disappointing. That is why we have tabled the relitigate the issue abroad. It is hard, it is slow, and it is amendment in the way that we have: to have a consultation not very effective. There are countries that want to look specifically at the three points that I have made. 127 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 128

[BARONESS SMITH OF BASILDON] The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, explained A mutual recognition that would remove the need to in Committee that a couple of the proposals were, in relitigate in other countries would save time and money, the Government’s view, unnecessary; I do not want to and has the potential to significantly improve results. anticipate what my noble friend will say. Indeed, as the The Minister has started really well in his new noble Baroness reminded the House, on the recovery position because he has already conceded on one of of costs, the noble Lord said that the Government the points that we raised in Committee. I hope that he would consider capping legal aid rates. However, without will look at this issue and accept our amendment. I am for a moment wishing to suggest that the concerns sorry that I have spoken for rather longer than I regarding the application of the Modern Slavery Bill normally would. We propose the amendment in a are not important—they are immensely important—it cross-party spirit of wanting this legislation to succeed. seems that without the amendment there is nothing to If we are really going to tackle organised and serious preclude both consultation about the application of crime, we can do so only if we are able effectively to the provisions of that Bill and the bringing forward of seize the proceeds of crime. more legislation. Conversely, consultation does not solve the issues which have been raised during the passage of the Modern Slavery Bill—which, like other noble Lords, I am very keen to see being effective. Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, I, too, welcome my noble friend to his position. It must have come as quite a facer in the middle of his holiday to be told Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): My Lords, the Proceeds what a workload he was going to be coming back to. of Crime Act has been inadequately applied. There is no doubt that it could be better dealt with. As far as Before I come to Amendment 4, I would like to say they go, the Minister’s amendments are to be supported— a word about part of the wording of Amendment 1 but they by no means go far enough. As a member of and indeed Amendment 14—and this point crops up the Joint Committee on the Modern Slavery Bill, I elsewhere. I suspect that we are looking at a bit of strongly support the speech of the noble Lord, Lord modernised style, because we are told to have in mind Warner. However, it goes further than that. The Modern the concept of the court “thinking”. There are a Slavery Bill is an important part of getting the proceeds number of places now where the court “thinks”. We of crime, but all of us in this House want to see are quite used to words like “considers”. The Minister criminals dispossessed of their assets. The Proceeds of himself, in introducing the amendment, used the term Crime Act and all of the amendments go further than “believes”, but one might “suppose”, “imagine” or the Modern Slavery Bill. We do need something. “suspect”—one could go on for quite a long time. I am not entirely certain, having listened to the I am little concerned that we should be cautious noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that we need it in about using modernised language without being very Amendment 4, but we certainly need either this clear about what it means, particularly when similar amendment or a very strong undertaking from the concepts have been introduced in other legislation Government that—side by side with implementing the using different, and perhaps more “old-fashioned”, government amendments to the Bill—they will consult. words. English is a rich language, and its richness If there was a strong commitment to consultation covers a lot of subtleties. I just wanted to get that off before the Modern Slavery Bill comes in—bearing in my chest because I might come back to it on other mind that it is much broader than the Modern Slavery legislation. Bill—I would be content with that. However, if the However, most of the debate so far—and we will Government are not going to give a strong commitment, hear more—is about the effectiveness of the restraint I would find myself supporting Amendment 4. and confiscation regime. I share the outrage of other noble Lords about criminals salting away the proceeds of their crime. We used to discuss it quite a lot in the Lord Bates: My Lords, first I thank the noble context of legal aid: that there were recipients of legal Baroness and also my noble friend for their warm aid who were suspected of having a good deal of cash welcome to this role. I will do my very best to try to if only one could find it. Now, in the context of the ensure that I answer as fully as possible the very Modern Slavery Bill, as the noble Baroness said, we serious points which they made. could do better. I will commence with the points raised by the noble I hesitate to support the amendment going into Lord, Lord Warner, and to some extent the points legislation. The changes which it appears that we are raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in all agreed should be made to the regime will barely relation to the Modern Slavery Bill. As these Bills were have been in force before April 2015, which is the drafted and conceived, and as they move through the proposed end of the consultation period. Of course legislative process, they are seen very much as two we should be assessing and evaluating the impact of parts of an attempt to address the problem of human the changes made by the Bill—in themselves, in the trafficking and the gangs that seek to profit from that. wider context and continually—to the confiscation They also seek to ensure that those gangs are unable to regime. We should be prepared to make changes. Is it hide away the funds which they amass from the misery sensible to have a consultation running in parallel with they afflict on others. On that we are absolutely united. the introduction of some alterations? Indeed, are we I would also say to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that always talking about legislation that needs changing we set out a number of points in a detailed letter or about practice? I suspect that quite a lot of the which was drafted and sent to his noble friend the problems are in the area of practice. noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, on 7 October. 129 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 130

A copy has been placed in the Library but it might be have no intention of dissipating. Indeed, in the letter helpful, as part of my response to the debate, if I place to the noble Baroness of 7 October to which I referred some of the remarks from it on the record in this earlier, I made the point that often when the restraint House. order is applied for, the individuals are not aware. If In responding to Amendment 4, let me first say that there was a requirement to place an additional we share the objective underpinning this amendment, responsibility to come forward at that stage, there is of namely to further strengthen the effectiveness of the course a risk that that might alert people to the fact asset recovery regime provided for in the Proceeds of that an investigation is under way. Crime Act. It is also worth noting at this point that, On the noble Baroness’s second proposal, we agree under this Government, more than £746 million of in principle that any reimbursement of the defendant’s criminal assets have been seized through all four current costs that arise from a restraint hearing should be methods of recovery, which in itself is a record amount. capped at legal aid rates. New primary legislation will I know it is not getting anywhere near to addressing not be required to effect this change, as provision the full scale of the problem but it shows that the law could be made under the Criminal Procedure Rules. enforcement of the courts is having some effect. Of We have consulted the CPS on this issue already, as course we want to do even better. One of the aims of any change to the rates would need to be applied the Government’s serious and organised crime strategy even-handedly to them when recovering costs. We now is to crack down on those who do not pay their intend to consult the Criminal Procedure Rule Committee confiscation orders. As part of this, the criminal finances on this matter. improvement plan aims to look at ways to improve the recovery of the proceeds of crime. The amendment next calls for the court to have the power to require a defendant to disclose any interests The amendment calls for consultation on ways to in realisable property. Clause 2 of the Bill already strengthen the legal framework as set out in the Proceeds provides that the prosecutor and defendant must detail of Crime Act. Part 1 of this Bill is the product of just any known third-party interest in property linked to such a consultation. It already includes significant the defendant. That information will be used by the reforms to the asset recovery regime. I do not for a court to consider whether to make a determination as moment suggest that these provisions are the last word to the defendant’s interest in property. As I have in terms of changes to POCA—if I may use that already explained, Amendment 1 will empower the acronym for the Proceeds of Crime Act. We remain court to require a third party to provide any information open to further constructive suggestions, which was it believes is necessary to assist it in making such a very much what the noble Baroness asked us to do. We determination. Taken together, these provisions will remain open to suggestions and to having a constructive enable the Crown Court to deal with claims from third dialogue over what improvements can be made with, parties at the same time as it makes the confiscation among others, the National Crime Agency, police order. Those changes to POCA ensure that all assets forces, the Crown Prosecution Service and Her Majesty’s and claims against them may be considered thoroughly Courts and Tribunals Service. in one court hearing, and earlier in the process than is Let me turn to the specific proposals contained in currently the case. Amendment 4. First, the amendment calls for a change in the test for securing a restraint order. Clause 11 The fourth issue raised by the noble Baroness’s already reduces the legal test for obtaining such an amendment concerns the court’s powers to compel a order from “reasonable cause to believe” that the defendant to return to the UK realisable liquid assets alleged offender has benefited from his criminal conduct held overseas, and she is right to express that concern. to “reasonable grounds to suspect”. This was a point Again, a number of provisions in the Bill address this that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, also touched upon. issue. Clause 7 makes provision for compliance orders. That will enable restraint orders to be secured earlier Those will allow the court to impose any restrictions, in an investigation. We remain at this stage unpersuaded prohibitions or requirements it believes appropriate to of the case for removing the requirement to show that ensure that the defendant pays a confiscation order there is a real risk that the defendant will dissipate his and that the order is effective. Any compliance order or her assets. Such a test goes to the heart of the will be made at the time a confiscation order is granted. purpose of a restraint order. If there was no such risk, A compliance order will be capable of being used by there would be nothing to be gained from seeking a the court to order the defendant to return assets to the restraint order. UK from overseas. Breach of such an order will be a contempt of court. The Act already confers on the Crown Court the power to make such order as it 3.45 pm believes is appropriate for the purposes of ensuring that a restraint order is effective. A restraint order can Moreover, we believe that it would be extremely be obtained at a significantly earlier stage; for example, difficult for a defendant to prove a negative to a court, before the defendant has been charged. The requirement namely that they do not intend to dissipate their to compel a defendant to return property to the UK is assets. In contrast, an investigator is able to show by therefore already available under a restraint order. the steps an individual is taking that they have the ability and intention to dissipate. Furthermore, we Finally, the amendment seeks ways to improve should not lose sight of the fact that a restraint order international co-operation in the recovery of the proceeds is generally obtained from a court in the individual’s of crime. This was one of the issues specifically addressed absence, before they are arrested, and so they would in the serious and organised crime strategy. The UK is not be afforded the opportunity to prove that they engaging with key countries to encourage and improve 131 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 132

[LORD BATES] new section, we have used “thinks” as it seems to us to international co-operation in asset recovery, which we be the more natural word to use there; it would arguably accept has historically been very poor. We have already look slightly odd to say, engaged with Spain, China and the United Arab Emirates, “believes is or may be a person holding an interest in the property”. and will be working with the FCO and the CPS to I hope this reassures my noble friend that the wording negotiate further agreements and understanding with of new Section 18A is clear and conveys the appropriate other key countries, including Romania, South Africa meaning. and Ghana. These agreements will relate to asset sharing. The long-standing international position is The noble Baroness asked specifically how long that the country that enforces an overseas order in its people would have to respond to a compliance order. jurisdiction gets to keep the confiscated assets. There As regards an order made under new Section 18A, the is now a move towards sharing recovered assets, specified time would be the time specified in the order particularly where there are identifiable victims who by the court in the process which is set out, so that need to be compensated. We have recently had the first could vary from case to case. Obviously, the court will successful case involving the repatriation of assets take due cognisance of the risks which might be totalling just over £300,000 to the UK with the assistance involved in delaying the recovery of the assets which of the United Arab Emirates. are identified. I am conscious that this has been a lengthy response, I believe that the tools for international recovery but this is a very substantive amendment which raises already provide for successful co-operation between a number of issues and I wanted to get my response to the UK and our overseas counterparts. However, as I them on the record in order to help the House further. have already acknowledged, the tools have historically been underused, both here and overseas. This has undoubtedly improved in the last year or two, but Lord Warner: My Lords, before the Minister sits more could be done to encourage the use of these down, I have a question for him about his answer to powers. The bilateral agreements that we have recently me on restraint orders and third parties, which left me concluded and are seeking to negotiate with priority extremely puzzled. If he does not have the answer countries should have the effect of improving co-operation today, perhaps he could write to me. As I understood overseas. In addition, the CPS is seeking to post five what he said—and I do not, in any way, disagree with dedicated asset recovery advisers overseas, starting it—restraint orders may well be taken certainly before with Spain and the UAE. The CPS will provide targeted someone is charged and possibly before they are arrested, assistance to international colleagues from the UK or because the investigation may give the police and the through its network of overseas advisers where asset prosecution reason to believe that the people have recovery advisers are not deployed. considerable assets which may disappear at the point of arrest. However, as I understood him, he then said The UK has, last month, signed the Council of that it made no sense to make that restraint order deal Europe Convention on Laundering, Search, Seizure with dissipation of assets to a third party. If the and Confiscation of the Proceeds from Crime and on person does not know that the restraint order has been the Financing of Terrorism of 2005—the Warsaw taken out because they have not been arrested or convention. This will assist the UK in obtaining asset charged, what is to stop the courts including a provision sharing agreements and in encouraging other jurisdictions about dissipation of assets which the person may have to recognise UK civil recovery. or subsequently engage in dissipation of? If the chap or woman does not know they have actually got a I hope that I have been able to demonstrate to the restraint order on them, I cannot see at the moment noble Baroness, and indeed to the House as a whole, why it should not be drawn more widely to cover that we have taken seriously the suggestions she has dissipation at the point when restraint is introduced. made for further improving asset recovery. As I have However, the Minister seemed to be saying that was indicated, the Bill already directly addresses some of not possible. If I have got it wrong, he can answer me the issues raised by the amendment and we are now now; if I have not, could he explain what the Home actively pursuing her suggestion in relation to the Office lore is on why that does not make sense? capping of legal costs. I turn to the points raised by my noble friend Lady Lord Bates: I will, of course, take very seriously Hamwee in defence of the English language, in which what the noble Lord said. I do not think that was she has such expertise and ability. She asked about the exactly what I said, but I will check the record and use of the word “thinks” in the context of the court in clarify it if necessary. The point I was making was that subsection (1) of new Section 18A. The words “thinks” if it was necessary to identify third party interests at and “believes” are used interchangeably throughout the restraint stage, which Amendment 4 seeks to do, the Proceeds of Crime Act. For example, in Section that might alert people who are not unconnected to 49(4)(f) the court may authorise the receiver to take the person of interest that an investigation is under any other steps the court thinks appropriate. In the way. This might damage the prospects of bringing a context of new Section 18A of POCA, where a court successful prosecution. I was seeking to make a point is required to make a decision, we do not consider that of argument rather than a point of law or lore. However, there is any meaningful difference between “thinks” I will read the record and clarify this, if need be, for and “believes”. In subsection (4) of new Section 18A, the noble Lord. the word “believes” is used for the sake of consistency with the existing Section 18(4). In subsection (1) of the Amendment 1 agreed. 133 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 134

Clause 6: Confiscation and victim surcharge orders discharge an order and not the chief clerk. This amendment makes the necessary adjustment to Clause 30 to this end. Amendment 2 Finally, Amendment 54 corrects a drafting error in Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford Section 185 of POCA. I beg to move. 2: Clause 6, page 5, line 30, leave out “after “other than”” and insert “from “an order under section 130” to the end” Amendment 2 agreed.

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Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): My Lords, I Clause 7: Orders for securing compliance with can be relatively brief with this group of essentially confiscation order minor and technical amendments to Part 1 of the Bill. Amendment 2 is consequential upon the provisions in the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill in respect of the Amendment 3 new criminal courts charge, which will recover some of Moved by Lord Bates the trial costs from offenders. This amendment will 3: Clause 7, page 6, line 31, after “make” insert “, discharge or ensure that, although the court takes no account of vary” any confiscation order when imposing a criminal courts charge, payment of a confiscation order will take Amendment 3 agreed. precedence over payment of the new charge. Amendment 51 inserts into Schedule 4 a consequential Amendment 4 not moved. amendment to Section 22 of the Proceeds of Crime Act, arising from the provisions in Clause 6. That clause provides that priority will be given to the payment Amendment 5 of a victim surcharge order where a defendant has Moved by Lord Bates insufficient funds to pay both a confiscation order and a victim surcharge order. This amendment to Section 22 5: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause— of POCA will ensure that a victim surcharge order is “Orders for securing compliance with confiscation order taken into account by a court when it is reconsidering After section 97A of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 the available amount payable under an existing (inserted by section (2)) insert— confiscation order. Amendment 52 makes the equivalent 15 change to Section 107 of POCA which relates to “97B Orders for securing compliance with confiscation order Scotland. (1) This section applies where the court makes a confiscation Amendments 3 and 15 are to Clause 7 and the order. equivalent provision for Northern Ireland in Clause 29. (2) The court may make such order in relation to the accused These clauses amend POCA to provide the court with as it believes is appropriate for the purpose of ensuring that the the power to make any order it considers appropriate confiscation order is effective (a “compliance order”). for ensuring that a confiscation order is effective. Such (3) The court must consider whether to make a compliance a compliance order may, among other things, impose order— a travel ban on the defendant. Clauses 7 and 29 (a) on the making of the confiscation order, and provide for a right of appeal to the Court of Appeal (b) if it does not make a compliance order then, at any later by the prosecutor against a decision by the Crown time (while the confiscation order is still in effect) on the Court not to make a compliance order, and by the application of the prosecutor. prosecutor or person affected by a compliance order (4) In considering whether to make a compliance order, the against the decision to make a compliance order. court must, in particular, consider whether any restriction or However, as currently drafted, these clauses do not prohibition on the accused’s travel outside the United Kingdom provide for any right of appeal against a decision of ought to be imposed for the purpose mentioned in subsection (2). the Crown Court to vary or discharge a compliance (5) The court may discharge or vary a compliance order on an order. This is at odds with the existing provision in application made by— respect of the variation and discharge of a restraint (a) the prosecutor; order. These amendments remedy the inconsistency. (b) the accused. At the request of the Department of Justice in (6) For the purposes of any appeal or review, a compliance Northern Ireland, Amendment 16 amends Clause 30. order is a sentence. This clause empowers the Crown Court to discharge a “97C Breach of compliance order confiscation order where the defendant has died and it (1) This section applies where— is not possible or reasonable to seek payment of the (a) a compliance order has been made in relation to an order from the defendant’s estate—for example, where accused, and there are no assets remaining in the estate. In England (b) it appears to the court that the accused has failed to and Wales, an application to the Crown Court will be comply with the compliance order. made by the designated officer for a magistrates’ court. (2) The court may— The Department of Justice in Northern Ireland has (a) issue a warrant for the accused’s arrest, or advised us that, in Northern Ireland, the prosecutor (b) issue a citation to the accused requiring the accused to would be best placed to make any application to appear before the court. 135 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 136

(3) If the accused fails to appear as required by a citation Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, we are issued under subsection (2)(b), the court may issue a warrant for considering the third group of amendments, rather the arrest of the accused. than the fifth, and I should move Amendment 5, as (4) The unified citation provisions (as defined in section 307(1) that is my role. I apologise to my noble friend Lord of the Procedure Act) apply in relation to a citation under Bates. subsection (2)(b). (5) The court must, before considering the alleged failure— Strengthening the proceeds of crime legislation is a priority for the Scottish Government, as it is for the (a) provide the accused with written details of the alleged failure, UK Government. Maximising recovery of moneys through the route of criminal confiscation is a major (b) inform the accused that the accused is entitled to be legally represented, and part of this. Chapter 2 of Part 1 already replicates for Scotland a number of the changes made by the Bill to (c) inform the accused that no answer need be given to the allegation before the accused— the confiscation regime in England and Wales. At the request of the Scottish Government, it is now proposed (i) has been given an opportunity to take legal advice, or to replicate a number of further provisions—namely, those in Clauses 7, 9, 10 and 12. In each case, the (ii) has indicated that the accused does not wish to take legal advice. England and Wales provisions are subject to appropriate (6) If the court is satisfied that the accused has failed without modifications and adaptations to take account of Scots reasonable excuse to comply with the compliance order, the court law and any policy refinements determined by Scottish may— Ministers. (a) impose on the accused a fine not exceeding level 3 on the Amendments 5 and 6 broadly replicate the provisions standard scale, in Clause 7 to enable the courts to make a compliance (b) revoke the compliance order and impose on the accused order imposing overseas travel bans and other restrictions a sentence of imprisonment for a term not exceeding 3 and requirements on an accused person, for the purposes months, of ensuring that a confiscation order is effective. Unlike (c) vary the compliance order, or in England and Wales, it will not be possible to make a (d) both impose a fine under paragraph (a) and vary the compliance order against a third party. Amendment 7 order under paragraph (c). replicates the provisions in Clause 9, which ensure that (7) The court may vary the compliance order if the court is individuals who abscond before conviction, but are satisfied— then convicted in their absence, may be subject to (a) that the accused has failed to comply with the order, confiscation. (b) that the accused had a reasonable excuse for the failure, Amendment 8, which replicates subsections (1) and and (2) of Clause 10, increases the maximum default sentences (c) that, having regard to the circumstances which have where offenders fail to pay confiscation orders in arisen since the order was imposed, it is in the interests respect of amounts over £500,000. There are no changes of justice to vary the order. to the early release arrangements in Scotland. Amendment (8) Evidence of one witness is sufficient for the purpose of 8 also provides that, where a confiscation order was establishing that an accused has failed without reasonable excuse to comply with a compliance order. made by a court in England and Wales, or in Northern Ireland, but it falls to be enforced in Scotland, the “97D Appeals against variation or discharge of compliance orders courts in Scotland, when sentencing the defendant for non-payment of the order, would apply the default The prosecutor or the accused may appeal against a decision of the court under section 97B(5)— sentences set elsewhere in Part I of the Bill, rather than the sentences applicable for non-payment of a fine. (a) to vary or refuse to vary a compliance order, or (b) to discharge or refuse to discharge a compliance order.”” Amendment 9 replicates the provisions in Clause 12 to ensure that a restraint order may be maintained Lord Bates: My Lords, these amendments follow following the quashing of a conviction and pending up the debate in Committee on the new offence of the outcome of a retrial. participating in the activities of an organised crime Amendments 10 to 13 point in the opposite direction. group. Noble Lords will recall that in response to Rather than adding new Scottish provisions to the various amendments tabled at that stage by my noble Bill, they would remove Clauses 19, 20, 22 and 23. friend Lady Hamwee and the noble Baroness, Lady Those clauses, which were included in the Bill at the Smith, my noble friend Lord Taylor undertook to request of the Scottish Government, sought to make it consider further the potential for the offence to capture an offence to breach a prohibitory property order or the naive or unwitting participant. an interim administration order. These orders are I am pleased to say that discussions between Home designed to prevent a person from dissipating identified Office officials and the Law Society, the Institute of assets through the course of a civil recovery investigation. Chartered Accountants in England and Wales and the As such, they are analogous to restraint orders under Local Government Association have continued over the criminal confiscation regime. Under the existing the summer. As a result of those deliberations, I have civil recovery regime, the focus of these orders is on tabled Amendment 20, which is similar but not identical applying prohibitions on dissipating property rather to Amendment 21 put forward by the noble Baroness, than on the owners of, or those who control, the Lady Smith. Both amendments would change the property in question. “reasonable cause to suspect” limb of the mental After further consideration and discussion with element of the offence. In Committee, noble Lords operational stakeholders, the Scottish Government were concerned— have concluded that the introduction of these offences 137 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 138 would result in a loss of flexibility in the civil recovery (b) the court thinks it is appropriate for it to do so.”; regime and have therefore asked for the relevant clauses (c) section 106 has effect as if subsection (1) read— to be removed from the Bill. Breach of these orders (1) This section applies if— will continue, as now, to be dealt with through contempt (a) a court has made a confiscation order, of court proceedings. (b) the prosecutor believes that if the court were to find the The other amendments in this group are either amount of the accused’s benefit in pursuance of this consequential on the amendments that I have already section it would exceed the relevant amount, described or make other technical amendments to the (c) before the end of the period of six years starting with the Scottish confiscation regime in Part 3 of POCA. I beg day when the accused ceased to be unlawfully at large, to move. the prosecutor applies to the court to proceed under this section, and (d) the court thinks it is appropriate for it to do so.”; Amendment 5 agreed. (d) the modifications set out in subsection (3)(a) to (d) of this section do not apply to proceedings that take place Amendments 6 and 7 by virtue of section 104, 105 or 106 (as applied by this subsection).” Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford (3) In section 112 of that Act (accused neither convicted nor 6: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause— acquitted), in subsection (1)(c), for “two years” substitute “three “Compliance orders: appeals by prosecutor months”. (1) The Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 is amended (4) For subsection (4) of that section substitute— as follows. “(4) Once the accused has ceased to be unlawfully at large— (2) In section 108 (Lord Advocate’s right of appeal in solemn (a) section 106 has effect as if subsection (1) read— proceedings)— (1) This section applies if— (a) in subsection (1), after paragraph (cc) insert— (a) a court has made a confiscation order, “(cd) a decision under section 97B(2) of the Proceeds of (b) the prosecutor believes that if the court were to find the Crime Act 2002 to make or not to make a compliance amount of the accused’s benefit in pursuance of this order;”; section it would exceed the relevant amount, (b) in subsection (2)(b)— (c) before the end of the period of six years starting with the (i) in sub-paragraph (ii), for “or (cc)” substitute “, (cc) day when the accused ceased to be unlawfully at large, or (cd)”; the prosecutor applies to the court to proceed under this (ii) in sub-paragraph (iii), after “paragraph” insert section, and “(cd) or”. (d) the court thinks it is appropriate for it to do so.”; (3) In section 175 (right of appeal in summary proceedings)— (b) the modifications set out in subsection (3)(a) to (d) of (a) in subsection (4), after paragraph (cc) insert— this section do not apply to proceedings that take place by virtue of section 106 (as applied by this subsection).”” “(cd) a decision under section 97B(2) of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 to make or not to make a compliance order;”; (b) in subsection (4A)(b)— Amendments 6 and 7 agreed. (i) in sub-paragraph (ii), for “or (cc)” substitute “, (cc) or (cd)”; (ii) in sub-paragraph (iii), after “paragraph” insert “(cd) or”.” Clause 16: Enforcement of confiscation orders 7: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause— “Accused persons unlawfully at large Amendment 8 (1) In section 111 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (conviction or other disposal of accused), in subsection (1), for “after” Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford substitute “and, either before or after he became unlawfully at large”. 8: Clause 16, page 13, line 23, at end insert— (2) For subsection (4) of that section substitute— “(b) after subsection (2) insert— “(4) Once the accused has ceased to be unlawfully at large— “(2A) In its application in relation to confiscation orders, (a) section 104 has effect as if subsection (1) read— subsection (2) of section 219 of the Procedure Act is to be read as if for the Table in that subsection there were substituted the (1) This section applies if— following Table— (a) in a case where section 111 applies the court did not proceed under section 92, Amount to be Paid under Compensation Maximum Period of (b) before the end of the period of six years starting with the Order Imprisonment day when the accused ceased to be unlawfully at large, £10,000 or less 6 months the prosecutor applies to the court to proceed under More than £10,000 but no more than 5 years section 92, and £500,000 (c) the court thinks it is appropriate for it to do so.”; More than £500,000 but no more than 7 years (b) section 105 has effect as if subsection (3) read— £1 million More than £1 million 14 years (3) The second condition is that— (a) before the end of the period of six years starting with the (2B) The Scottish Ministers may by order — day when the accused ceased to be unlawfully at large, (a) amend section 219(2) of the Procedure Act (as applied the prosecutor applies to the court to reconsider whether by this section) so as to provide for minimum periods of the accused has benefited from his general or particular imprisonment in respect of amounts ordered to be paid criminal conduct (as the case may be), and under a confiscation order; 139 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 140

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] (b) if the High Court of Justiciary has granted authority (b) amend the Table in subsection (2A) so as to remove, under section 118(1)(c) or 183(1)(d) of the Procedure alter or replace any entry (including an entry inserted by Act to bring a new prosecution but no proceedings are virtue of paragraph (a) of this subsection) or to add any commenced by the expiry of the time mentioned in entry; section 119(5) or 185(5) of that Act (as the case may be), or (c) apply (with or without modifications) any provision of the Procedure Act relating to enforcement of fines in (c) otherwise, on the conclusion of the proceedings in the consequence of exercising the power in paragraph (a) or new prosecution of the accused under section 119 or 185 (b) (including modifying any such provision in its of the Procedure Act.”” application in relation to confiscation orders by virtue of this section). Amendment 9 agreed. (2C) In its application in relation to a confiscation order under Part 2 of this Act, subsection (8) of section 222 of the Procedure Act is to be read as if, in relation to a transfer of fine order under Clause 19: Notification of making etc of prohibitory section 90 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980, for “139 of the property orders Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000” there were substituted “35(2A) of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002”. (2D) In its application in relation to a confiscation order Amendment 10 under Part 4 of this Act, subsection (8) of section 222 of the Procedure Act is to be read as if— Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford (a) before the words “section 90” there were inserted 10: Clause 19, leave out Clause 19 “section 35 of the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 1945,”; Amendment 10 agreed. (b) in relation to a transfer of fine order under section 35 of that Act, for “139 of the Powers of Criminal Courts (Sentencing) Act 2000” there were substituted “185(2A) Clause 20: Offences relating to prohibitory property of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002”.” orders ( ) In section 459 of that Act (orders and regulations)— (a) after subsection (3) insert— Amendment 11 “(3A) Subsection (3) does not apply to the power of the Scottish Ministers to make an order under section 118(2B).”; Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford (b) in subsection (5)(a), after “section” insert “118(2B),”; 11: Clause 20, leave out Clause 20 (c) in subsection (6)(b), after “section” insert “118(2B),”. ( ) In section 219 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 Amendment 11 agreed. (fines: periods of imprisonment for non-payment), in subsection (8)(b), after “section 118(2)” insert “, (2A) and (2B)”.” Clause 22: Notification of making etc of interim administration orders

Amendment 8 agreed. Amendment 12 Moved by Amendment 9 Baroness Williams of Trafford Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford 12: Clause 22, leave out Clause 22 9: After Clause 17, insert the following new Clause— Amendment 12 agreed. “Continuation of restraint order after conviction quashed or verdict set aside (1) In section 121 of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002 (application, Clause 23: Offences relating to interim administration recall and variation), after subsection (8) insert— orders “(8A) The duty in subsection (8) to recall a restraint order on the conclusion of proceedings does not apply where— Amendment 13 (a) the proceedings are concluded by reason of— (i) an accused’s conviction for an offence being Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford quashed under section 118(1)(c) of the Procedure 13: Clause 23, leave out Clause 23 Act, or (ii) the setting aside of the verdict against the accused Amendment 13 agreed. under section 183(1)(d) of the Procedure Act, (b) the restraint order is in force at the time when the conviction is quashed or the verdict set aside (as the case Clause 25: Provision of information may be), and (c) the High Court of Justiciary has granted authority under section 118(1)(c) or 183(1)(d) of the Procedure Amendment 14 Act to bring a new prosecution or the prosecutor has Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford requested that the court grant such authority. (8B) But the court must recall the restraint order— 14: Clause 25, page 20, line 43, at end insert— (a) if the High Court of Justiciary refuses a request to grant “( ) After that section insert— authority under section 118(1)(c) or 183(1)(d) of the “168A Provision of information as to defendant’s interest in Procedure Act to bring a new prosecution, property 141 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 142

(1) This section applies if the court— Clause 40: Unauthorised acts causing, or creating risk (a) is considering whether to make a determination under of, serious damage section 160A of the extent of the defendant’s interest in any property, or Amendment 17 (b) is deciding what determination to make (if the court has decided to make a determination under that section). Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford In this section “interested person” means a person (other 17: Clause 40, page 30, line 40, leave out “country” and insert than the defendant) who the court thinks is or may be a “place” person holding an interest in the property. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, as we (2) For the purpose of obtaining information to help it in noted in Committee, the tentacles of cybercrime can carrying out its functions under section 160A the court may at any time order an interested person to give it information specified now stretch across the globe. A perpetrator, sitting in in the order. their bedroom in London, could be hacking into a (3) An order under this section may require all or a specified computer anywhere in the world, or, located outside part of the information to be given in a specified manner and the UK, a British national could be causing serious before a specified date. damage to their host country or in our own. The new (4) If an interested person fails without reasonable excuse to offence provided for in Clause 40 acknowledges this comply with an order under this section the court may draw such reality and captures the serious damage that cybercriminals inference as it believes is appropriate. can cause in any country. (5) Subsection (4) does not affect any power of the court to Clause 40 goes on to define a reference to country deal with the person in respect of a failure to comply with an as including a reference to: a territory; any place in, or order under this section. part or region of, a country or territory; and the (6) If the prosecutor accepts to any extent an allegation made territorial sea adjacent to any country or territory. My by an interested person— noble friend Lady Hamwee moved an amendment in (a) in giving information required by an order under this Committee to seek further clarity on the last of these section, or three points, which gave rise to an interesting debate (b) in any other statement given to the court in relation to on how best to capture damage caused outside territorial any matter relevant to a determination under section waters. 160A, Following that debate, we have given further the court may treat the acceptance as conclusive of the matters to which it relates. consideration to the position of installations such oil rigs, ships and so on that are located outside the (7) For the purposes of this section an allegation may be accepted in a manner ordered by the court. territorial waters of any country.Although I acknowledge that this scenario is extremely unlikely, it is not clear (8) If the court makes an order under this section it may at any time vary it by making another one. that the offence as currently drafted would capture an (9) No information given by a person under this section is attack that caused serious damage to the human welfare admissible in evidence in proceedings against that person for an of those living and working on such an installation, or offence.”” to the surrounding environment. To provide greater clarity on this point, therefore, Amendment 17 replaces the reference to damage to Amendment 14 agreed. human welfare in any country with a reference to damage to human welfare in any place. Amendment 18 similarly replaces the reference to damage to the Clause 29: Orders for securing compliance with environment in any country with a reference to damage confiscation order to the environment of any place. Once these changes are made, there is no longer any need to extend the meaning of “country” to include its Amendment 15 territorial seas. References to damage to the economy Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford or national security of any country will remain, as either the economy or national security of a country 15: Clause 29, page 24, line 7, after “make” insert “, discharge has been damaged or it has not. In these cases, it is not or vary” necessary to include territorial seas within the definition of a country, so Amendment 19 removes this reference. Amendment 15 agreed. I am most grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue and I beg to move. Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am grateful to both my noble friends on the Front Bench. Clause 30: Variation or discharge Amendment 17 agreed. Amendment 16 Amendments 18 and 19 Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford 16: Clause 30, page 24, line 32, leave out “a chief clerk” and 18: Clause 40, page 31, line 1, leave out “in any country” and insert “the prosecutor” insert “of any place” 19: Clause 40, page 31, leave out line 23 Amendment 16 agreed. Amendments 18 and 19 agreed. 143 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 144

Clause 44: Offence of participating in activities of Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I can certainly organised crime group forgive a technical hitch when we are given a welcome substantive response. I am grateful to the Minister, because he has taken away the points that we raised in Amendment 20 Committee and has brought forward proposals that Moved by Lord Bates will make the Bill more workable. It was always our concern, which the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said he 20: Clause 44, page 34, line 19, leave out “has reasonable cause to suspect” and insert “reasonably suspects” would reflect on, that those who were not criminals but who were caught up in criminal activities for which they were not responsible could be affected by the clause. It could also act as a deterrent to people to Lord Bates: My Lords, my apologies to the House report crimes in which they had become unwittingly for the slight mix-up in the order. It is one of the involved because they could themselves be prosecuted, things that happen when you take people out of the so I think that this is a major step forward. We have Whips’Office and put them in a departmental office—they tabled our Amendment 21, but I think that the Minister forget their day job. We were sharply reminded of it has addressed the points that we have raised. We also and I am grateful to noble Lords for their patience. needed to consider whether there was a case for an These amendments follow up the debate in Committee additional defence. I think that the Minister is saying on the new offence of participating in the activities of that it is not necessary, because the change in the mens an organised crime group. Noble Lords will recall rea from suspicion to “reasonably suspects” is enough. that, in response to various amendments tabled at that It would be helpful if he would clarify that. However, stage by my noble friend Lady Hamwee and the noble this is a positive move from the Government, which Baroness, Lady Smith, my noble friend Lord Taylor makes the Bill more workable, and we are grateful to undertook to consider further the potential for the the noble Lord for taking on board the points that we offence to capture the naive or unwitting participant. I made. am pleased to say that discussions between Home Office officials and the Law Society, the Institute of 4.15 pm Chartered Accountants in England and Wales and the Local Government Association continued over the Baroness Hamwee: I welcome the Government’s summer. As a result of those deliberations, I have response to this. My amendment seeks further clarity tabled Amendment 20, which is similar but not identical on the provision in Clause 44(8) which makes it, to Amendment 21 put forward by the noble Baroness, “a defence … to prove that the person’s participation was necessary Lady Smith. Both these amendments would change for a purpose related to the prevention or detection of crime”. the “reasonable cause to suspect” limb of the mental “Necessary” is narrow, which is right, but a, element of the offence. In Committee, noble Lords “purpose related to the prevention or detection of crime”, were concerned that “reasonable cause to suspect”, as seems to me very wide. The example that came to an objective test, could capture the unwitting or naive mind at the previous stage was undercover policing, and that there might be instances where the “reasonable which is a contentious activity, although we heard cause to suspect” became clear only with the benefit of from a report in the last day or two some good news hindsight. on how it is conducted. In providing for a threshold of “suspects” without I am still puzzled about whether the phrase, qualification, Amendment 21 certainly deals with the “participation … for a purpose related to”, concerns about inadvertently capturing the naive or unwitting. By definition, these individuals will genuinely and not just, not have suspected, when they took part in the relevant “necessary for … the prevention or detection of crime”, activities, that they were participating in organised takes it beyond something that is acceptable. My criminal activities, even if they had reasonable grounds amendment invites my noble friend to amplify the to do so. But this threshold might also capture the provision, if he is able to do so. paranoid who suspected that their conduct was contributing to the activities of an organised crime group, despite the fact that there were no reasonable Lord Bates: I am grateful for the welcome that the grounds for such suspicion. Amendment 20 therefore amendment has received. I am mindful of the two also requires the suspicion to be reasonable. This adds questions, which I shall do my best to address. In an objective test—there were reasonable grounds for response to the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, the Bill the suspicion—to the subjective test that the individual already provides for a defence when the, genuinely suspected, and it requires both to be met “participation was necessary for a purpose related to the prevention for the offence to have been committed. It therefore or detection of crime”. provides some further additional protection against We considered that that, together with raising the overcriminalisation. The approach in Amendment 20 threshold for the offence to “reasonably suspects” and has been welcomed by the stakeholders whom we a requirement for any prosecution to be in the public consulted over the summer. interest, provided that additional safeguard. We therefore I will respond to the other amendments in this concluded that the general defence of acting reasonably group once the House has had an opportunity to hear is unlikely in practice to add any additional protection from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and my noble from overcriminalisation of this offence. However, in friend Lady Hamwee. For now, I beg to move. the light of particular concerns expressed about the 145 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 146 position of the regulated sector specifically, we looked place in a criminal court, either the High Court of again at the need for a bespoke defence for the regulated Justiciary or a sheriff sitting in exercise of the criminal sector. jurisdiction that a sheriff court has. That distinction is Two aspects of the Proceeds of Crime Act have applicable to all aspects of new Section 2A, which is at been raised in this context. The first relates to the the foot of page 55, which states: obligation that members of the regulated sector have “For the purposes of this Part, a person has been involved in to report money-laundering carried out by another. serious crime in Scotland if he … has committed a serious offence This aspect is addressed in Amendment 22, which in Scotland; … has facilitated the commission by another person of a serious offence in Scotland; or … has conducted himself in a would provide a partial defence that would apply to a way that was likely to facilitate the commission by himself or member of a regulated sector who took part in activities another person of a serious offence in Scotland”. that he did not know or suspect to be criminal activities These are all issues which, to my mind, involve alleged as part of an organised crime group. We believe that criminality. the additional dimension is there and that it provides a further protection for those who are involved in financial If a Court of Session judge sitting in a civil court services. I am sure that is why the Law Society, the were to be involved as an “appropriate court” for the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England and purposes of these provisions, a sheriff sitting in the Wales and the Local Government Association have sheriff court as an “appropriate court”would reasonably welcomed the amendment as far as it goes. also be expected to be assessed as exercising the sheriff court’s civil jurisdiction. I would be grateful if the On the point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Minister could confirm that those inferences have Hamwee, I covered that in the previous answer to the been correctly drawn. noble Baroness, Lady Smith, but I will come back to her with more detail in writing if necessary. I beg to Thus, the terms of the additional provisions set out move. on this page of the Bill would allow certain judges sitting in the civil courts in Scotland to impose a Amendment 20 agreed. serious crime prevention order in Scotland on a person who had not been convicted in criminal proceedings of any serious crime committed in Scotland or, for that Amendments 21 to 24 not moved. matter, elsewhere. The Law Society of Scotland has been interested in Schedule 1: Amendments of Serious Crime Act 2007: this matter for some time. Having discussed the matter Scotland with it and seen the representations that it made in response to some consultations carried out by the Scottish Ministers, I submit that the provisions relating Amendment 25 to the roles of the “appropriate court” are inadequate. Moved by Lord Mackay of Drumadoon It is suggested that the judge in such a court has to be satisfied that the person in respect of whom the order 25: Schedule 1, page 55, line 8, leave out “involved in” and insert “convicted of” is sought has been involved in serious crime. That, they maintain, should be in the criminal court. Lord Mackay of Drumadoon (CB): My Lords, I In addition to that concern, the position of the Law intend to speak also to other amendments in my name, Society of Scotland in this matter is that the making of namely Amendments 26, 27 and 28. Amendment 25 is a serious crime prevention order in Scotland should be directed at paragraph 2(2) of Schedule 1. It seeks to based on a pre-existing conviction of a serious crime, replace “involved in” with “convicted of”, so that new not just on allegations that fall to be considered once Section 1(1A) would read: the matter comes before a judge. That position is based on the consequences for a person if they are “The appropriate court in Scotland may make an order if … it is satisfied that a person has been convicted of serious crime made subject to a serious crime protection order. I do (whether in Scotland or elsewhere): and … it has reasonable not intend to go into this in huge detail, but it is grounds to believe that the order would protect the public by perfectly obvious—looking at the provisions of the preventing, restricting or disrupting involvement by the person in Serious Crime Act 2007—that such an order has serious crime is Scotland”. considerable implications for a person on whom it is I resist the temptation to enter the debate on whether placed. That means that any debate in court in proceedings “think” means “believe” by noticing that the “satisfied” leading up to the making of such an order has to be appears in this provision. such that will ensure that all aspects of the allegations New Section 1(5) of the Serious Crime Act 2007, made against the person who is being threatened with which is also to be found on page 55 of the Bill, will the imposition of an order, and equally any explanations provide that the term “appropriate court” means in from the person concerned, are brought before the Scotland the Court of Session or sheriff. As many of court for its consideration. your Lordships will be aware, the Court of Session is Obviously, this is based on provisions that have the supreme civil court within Scotland. It handles applied in England for some years. The background to civil business as opposed to handling criminal proceedings. it, I understand, is that Scottish Ministers issued a As far as my understanding and experience go, it is not consultation paper in September 2013 entitled Serious a normal part of its judicial role to make a formal Crime Prevention Orders in Scotland. The consultation ruling that an individual has committed a serious paper explained that Ministers wanted to consider the offence in Scotland. The prosecution and conviction effectiveness of serious crime prevention orders elsewhere of a person on a charge of serious crime has to take in the United Kingdom as part of their policy for 147 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 148

[LORD MACKAY OF DRUMADOON] if I provide a little background to Schedule 1. The disrupting the activities of serious organised crime. As provisions to extend the serious crime prevention order part of that policy, they sought to tighten the existing to Scotland have been included in the Bill at the legislation and introduce new legislation in Scotland request of the Scottish Government. The main policy to make it harder for serious crime groups to operate. driver for this in Scotland is the implementation of the The Law Society of Scotland launched a response to serious and organised crime strategy, Letting Our the consultation paper. Among a number of submissions Communities Flourish, in which the Scottish Government it made was one saying that a serious crime prevention have committed to tackle serious and organised crime order should only be made by a court in Scotland and to disrupt and dismantle organised crime groups. following a conviction for an offence of the person in That is a priority for both the Scottish and the UK question falling within one or a number of serious Governments. Clause 45 of and Schedule 1 to the Bill categories of crime. will extend the serious crime prevention order regime After the Scottish Ministers received the various to Scotland and provide an additional power for law responses to their consultation paper, they announced enforcement agencies to minimise the harm that serious that they would give further consideration to the options organised criminals do to communities in Scotland. available for introducing serious crime prevention orders A serious crime prevention order is a civil order in Scotland. The route that the Scottish Ministers have that is used to protect the public by preventing, restricting followed has involved their requesting the United or disrupting a person’s involvement in a serious crime. Kingdom Government to legislate to extend the provisions It is not intended to operate as a punishment. Serious of Part 1 of the Serious Crime Act 2007 to Scotland. crime prevention orders have operated successfully in The Scottish Ministers, however, have never fully explained England, Wales and Northern Ireland since 2008. in public their reasons for rejecting the Law Society’s When the Serious Crime Act 2007 was going through submission that no order should be granted unless the Parliament, the then Scottish Government decided to person to whom it relates has been convicted of a consider the effectiveness of serious crime prevention serious offence. The Law Society remains of the view orders elsewhere in the UK before deciding whether that no order should be made unless the Lord Advocate those orders should be introduced in Scotland. It is a or the police force have sought it in respect of a person measure of confidence in the value of the orders that to whom a conviction has already adhered. Given the the Scottish Government have now concluded, following restrictive nature of such orders, the Law Society consultation last year, that the provisions in Part 1 of remains of the view that it is unreasonable to impose the Serious Crime Act 2007 should extend to Scotland. such an order when an alleged offence remains unproven. The Law Society understands that in England there As the noble and learned Lord made clear, the have been no cases in which orders have been pronounced intention of these amendments is that the serious without a conviction against the subject of the order. crime prevention orders should only be made by a They are referred to as stand-alone orders. It is fully court following conviction for an offence. I hope that I accepted that there are not likely to be many of them can allay the concerns of the noble and learned Lord were the provisions to be applied in Scotland, but if by reassuring him that there will be a robust framework they were, in the Law Society’s opinion, they would of safeguards for the use of SCPOs—as they are clearly amount to an unreasonable restriction in the called—in the civil courts. absence of a suitable foundation for them. The class of applicant authorities will be restricted. I therefore hope that the Minister will be able to Only the Lord Advocate will be able to make applications accept Amendment 25 as representing the views of a for civil or criminal SCPOs in Scotland. This reflects very important body within the justice system in Scotland, the current position in England, Wales and Northern which finds some support when one looks at the terms Ireland, where only prosecutors may apply for an of Schedule 1 in its present form. Amendments 26 to SCPO. It is not the case, as suggested in the Law 28 are there because of the content of page 55 of the Society of Scotland’s briefing paper, that the police Bill. If Amendment 25 is accepted, they would be of will be able to apply for stand-alone SCPOs. I hope the relevance. If it is refused, they become superfluous as fact that the Lord Advocate will act as a gatekeeper in a consequence of that decision. this regard will provide some comfort for the noble In conclusion, I hope that the Minister can accept and learned Lord, as he is a former holder of the the amendments. If he can, that will be very welcome; office. equally, if he is unable to do so, it would be helpful if When considering an application for an SCPO, the he could explain the approach that the Government court will need to be satisfied that the respondent has have adopted to the various points raised. been involved in serious crime and believe that imposing At this stage, it is right that I should publicly an order would protect the public. Courts will impose recognise that, following Committee on the Bill, I had an SCPO only when it is a necessary and proportionate a very useful meeting with the noble Lord, Lord response. There will also be a right of appeal against Taylor of Holbeach, for which I was very grateful, as the imposition of an order. Furthermore, third parties was the Law Society when it was advised what had will have the right to be represented at SCPO hearings taken place. I beg to move. if a decision concerning the order is likely to have a significant adverse effect on them. 4.30 pm It is also worth noting here that, since the 2007 Act Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, before I came into force, no stand-alone order has been imposed address the specific points raised by the noble and in the rest of the UK in the absence of a criminal learned Lord, Lord Mackay, it might assist the House conviction. That said, we are working with the CPS to 149 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 150 make better use of this preventive tool in future, including by seeking stand-alone orders in appropriate Amendments 30 and 31 cases. I stress that, although these orders are civil, their overriding aim is to protect the public from Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford harm. 30: Schedule 1, page 59, line 17, leave out “A court” and insert The noble and learned Lord made a point about “The High Court” stand-alone orders in the more junior sheriff courts. 31: Schedule 1, page 66, line 26, at end insert— In Scotland, a sheriff court may consider both civil “( ) in subsection (1), for “, the Treasury or the Scottish and criminal cases. For criminal cases, on indictment a Ministers” substitute “or the Treasury”;” sheriff court may consider all crimes except murder, treason, rape and breach of duty by a magistrate. Amendments 30 and 31 agreed. Stand-alone orders may also be considered in the Court of Session. It will be for the Lord Advocate to decide in which court to make the application. If a Clause 49: Serious crime prevention orders and sheriff court sitting in its criminal capacity has the financial reporting etc power to impose an SCPO, it is logical that it should have the same power when sitting in its civil capacity. Amendment 32 Schedule 1 seeks to replicate what is already in existence in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford Other than allowing for different legal systems, there 32: Clause 49, page 39, leave out lines 28 and 29 are no real differences in how the regimes will operate. I very much hope that I have been able to reassure the Amendment 32 agreed. noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that the safeguards that will be in place will ensure that SCPOs will be imposed by Scotland’s civil courts only where it is Clause 56: Notice to be given where substances seized necessary and proportionate to protect the public from the harm caused by serious crime. In the light of those assurances, I hope that the noble and learned Amendment 33 Lord will be content to withdraw his amendment. Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford 33: Clause 56, page 42, line 34, leave out from “notice” to end of line 35 and insert— Lord Mackay of Drumadoon: I am very grateful to the Minister for her clear and helpful response to my “(a) to the person from whom the substance was seized, and question on the reasons for the Government’s position. (b) if the officer thinks that the substance may belong to a In the light of that position and in the absence of any different person, to that person.” support from anyone else in your Lordships’ House, these four amendments are coming to a rather abrupt Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, we now end. Speaking more seriously about it, I have little turn to the amendments relating to Clause 65—no, we doubt that what the Minister has said today will be of do not. I am sorry but I had what is completely the use to those in Scotland who will come to implement wrong speaking note and I apologise to your Lordships. the provisions in this Bill. In these circumstances, I beg During debate in Committee, I agreed to consider leave to withdraw the amendment. further an amendment put forward by my noble friend Lady Hamwee to what was then Clause 56—it is now Amendment 25 withdrawn. clause 59. Where a substance suspected of being used as a drug-cutting agent has been seized and the court makes an order authorising the continued retention of Amendments 26 to 28 not moved. the substance, Clause 59(7) requires the relevant police or customs officer to notify a person entitled to the substance of that fact, if they were not represented at Amendment 29 the court hearing. My noble friend queried why such Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford notice should not also be given to the person from whom the substance was seized, if different from the 29: Schedule 1, page 57, line 38, leave out from “Advocate” to person entitled to the substance. end of line 39 I am grateful to my noble friend for raising a pertinent point. On further consideration, we agreed Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, the four that her suggested amendment would strengthen the amendments in this group are minor, technical and provisions in the Bill by helping to minimise any drafting amendments to the provisions in respect of impact on the legitimate trade. Amendment 35 to serious crime prevention orders. I do not propose to Clause 59 therefore extends the notice provision in go through them in detail, but I would of course be that clause. A similar point also arises in relation to happy to do so if it would assist the House. In the Clauses 56 and 61, which also require notice to be mean time, I beg to move. given to a person entitled to the seized substance. Amendments 33, 34 and 36 therefore make equivalent changes to these clauses, while Amendments 37 and 38 Amendment 29 agreed. to Clause 64 make consequential amendments to the 151 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 152

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] Clause 65: Child cruelty offence definition of “entitled”. Once again, I am grateful to my noble friend for raising the point and I beg to move. Amendment 39 Moved by Lord Bates Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, again, I give my 39: Clause 65, page 48, line 40, at end insert— thanks to my noble friend. “( ) In subsection (1)— (a) after “ill-treats” insert “(whether physically or otherwise)”; Amendment 33 agreed. (b) after “ill-treated” insert “(whether physically or otherwise)”.” Amendment 34 Lord Bates: My Lords, we now turn to the amendments Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford relating to Clause 65, which clarifies and updates the 34: Clause 56, page 42, line 38, leave out subsection (3) law on child cruelty in Section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933. We had an informed debate on Clause 65 in Committee, during which a range of Amendment 34 agreed. issues were raised in relation to Section 1 of the 1933 Act. In responding to that debate, my noble friend Lord Taylor undertook to reflect further on some of Clause 59: Continued retention or return of seized those issues over the summer. Having done so, we substances propose to make two further changes to Section 1. The first is to clarify that the behaviour necessary to establish the ill treatment limb of the offence can be Amendment 35 non-physical. In Committee the noble and learned Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, argued that as well as clarifying that the offence can be committed where 35: Clause 59, page 44, leave out line 21 and insert “to the the consequences of the behaviour in question are person from whom the substance was seized and, if the officer thinks that the substance may belong to a different person, to that psychological, as Clause 65 already does, further person.” amendments should be made to clarify that the offence can be committed by way of non-physical—for example, emotional—ill treatment and neglect. The Government’s Amendment 35 agreed. view is that a failure to provide for a child’s emotional needs is beyond the neglect element of the offence, as a result of the House of Lords judgment in R v Sheppard. Clause 61: Appeal against decision under section 60 However, we consider that the ill treatment limb of the offence can relate to non-physical cruelty and Amendment 39 makes this explicit. Amendment 36 Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford 4.45 pm Amendment 40 updates subsection (2B) of Section 36: Clause 61, page 45, line 35, leave out from second “to” to end of line 36 and insert “the person from whom the substance 1 of the 1933 Act. That subsection makes specific was seized and, if the officer thinks that the substance may belong provision about the liability for the child cruelty offence to a different person, to that person.” in circumstances where the child under the age of three is suffocated while in bed with a drunken person. Although there was no detailed discussion on this Amendment 36 agreed. issue in Committee, the amendment of the noble and learned Baroness sought to repeal this subsection. Following discussions with the police and the Crown Clause 64: Interpretation etc Prosecution Service, we believe that this provision continues to have some utility. Accordingly, we propose to modernise rather than simply repeal it. Amendment 40 Amendments 37 and 38 will extend the provision to cover circumstances where Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford the person is under the influence of prohibited drugs. The amendment also deals with the reference to the 37: Clause 64, page 48, line 9, leave out “section 56(3)” and suffocation occurring in a bed, so that the provision insert “subsection (2A)” also covers circumstances where the infant dies by 38: Clause 64, page 48, line 24, at end insert— suffocation while lying next to a person aged 16 or “(2A) The persons “entitled” to a substance for the purposes over, of this Part are— “on any kind of furniture or surface being used … for the purpose (a) the person from whom it was seized; of sleeping”. (b) (if different) any person to whom it belongs.” These changes will address the specific concerns expressed by campaigners about Section 1(2B) being too limited. Amendments 37 and 38 agreed. I should make it clear that Section 1(2B) does not 153 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 154 create a separate offence but is a deeming provision—that correspondence with my noble friend Lady Northover. is, if the circumstances described are proved by the Further to that correspondence, it is clear that the prosecution, then the defendant is automatically held Government now accept two important facts that to have neglected the child under three in a manner were not recognised before these debates. First, they likely to cause injury to its health, as required by now recognise that possession accusations are child Section 1(1), without the need for those ingredients of abuse, regardless of what is done to the child as a the offence to be proved individually. result. Secondly, they accept that neither criminal nor Of course, taking a legitimately prescribed or over- civil law on child abuse can be used to take action on the-counter medicine may make you drowsy. While it such abuse if it is perpetrated by someone who is not a is not advisable then to sleep with a child, we are not parent or acting in loco parentis. Thus neither Section convinced that if the child then dies, doing so should 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 nor the be deemed to amount to neglect. It should be clear, Children Act 1989 can be used in such cases. however, that it is not acceptable for anyone who However, the Government did not accept the need illicitly consumes controlled drugs—as with alcohol—to for the change that I was proposing, pointing to then share a bed or sleeping place with a baby who is various other criminal statutes that could be used in their care. where someone had caused a child injury by making a The amended deeming provision applies only to the possession accusation: the Public Order Act 1986, the case of taking prohibited drugs, which are defined as Protection from Harassment Act 1997 and the Serious illegally possessed controlled drugs under the Misuse Crime Act 2007—my noble friend mentioned all of of Drugs Act 1971. For the amended deeming provision these in the correspondence. Those other statutes are to apply in the case of drugs, a person must have been not appropriate for three reasons. First, the point of in unlawful possession of a controlled drug immediately my amendment is to protect children from knowing prior to taking it. They must also have been under the that they are believed to be possessed by evil spirits or influence of that controlled drug when they went to have supernatural powers, whereas using those statutes bed or other place to sleep. In our view, the term would entail the child having to give evidence that they “under the influence” of a prohibited drug generally were harmed by the allegations—thus precisely obviating means that a drug must have made a material difference the protection that my amendment is seeking. to the person’s day-to-day function. Secondly, the primary aim of the amendment is not Finally, Amendment 56 to Clause 71 will ensure to prosecute but to prevent this kind of abuse. This that the changes to the law on child cruelty are not can be done only if the law explicitly states that a retrospective. I hope that noble Lords will agree that possession accusation constitutes an offence against these are sensible changes that, when taken with existing children—which, I reiterate, would not make a belief provisions in Clause 65, will ensure that Section 1 of in evil spirit possession an offence, just the communication the 1933 Act continues to be fit for purpose, which I of that belief to the child or those known to the child. know was the concern of Members of your Lordships’ It is not my intention to get in the way of people’s House. I will respond at the end of the debate to seriously held religious beliefs. I hope I made that Amendments 41 and 41A, also in this group, having clear the last time I raised this point. heard the contributions of my noble friend Lady Walmsley, the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and others. Thirdly, none of the cited laws has ever been used I beg to move. to charge anyone for alleging that a child has supernaturally evil powers, which is not surprising. It is extremely unlikely that any prosecutor would agree Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I wish to speak to a wholly speculative prosecution that balanced having to Amendment 41 in my name in this group. I welcome to prove a child’s psychological trauma against the Clause 65 and the Government’s amendments to it, expression of strongly held religious beliefs, in the but I have tabled this further amendment, the purpose absence of direction from central government on this of which is twofold. First, it would delete the limitation issue. I invite the Minister to seek the opinion of the in Section 1(1) of the 1933 Act that only people with Director of Public Prosecutions on this point if the responsibility for a child or a young person can be Government are going to rely on these various statutes. prosecuted for child abuse. This means that anyone could be prosecuted for such offences—for example, The numbers of children killed or seriously physically clergy, pastors, friends, relatives, neighbours or lodgers— injured in this country by this form of faith-based not just parents or people acting in loco parentis. It is abuse are not great—probably still under 100, although unclear to me why Section 1 was ever limited in this of course even one is too many. However, we do not way. I ask the Government to explain why, particularly know how many children are psychologically scarred since we have seen in the recent Rotherham scandal for life by being told that they are possessed by evil how many children are abused by people who are not spirits, that they are responsible for causing supernatural responsible for them. Secondly, it would clarify the harm to their loved ones and that they are an object of meaning of “ill-treats” in order to make it clear that hatred, fear and revulsion. Members of the National any allegation, by word or deed, that a child is possessed Working Group on Child Abuse Linked to Faith or by an evil spirit or has harmful supernatural powers is Belief estimate that that number could run to many unlawful because it amounts to serious emotional hundreds. abuse of the child. Are we failing to take action on this horrible torment This amendment was debated twice on the then of children because we are reluctant to challenge, in Children and Families Bill at the end of last year and this instance, the religious practices of minorities? If the beginning of this year, and was followed by the Government believe, as they say they do and I 155 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 156

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] Current laws on work and benefits mean that 16 to know they do, that possession accusations are child 17 year-olds are made more vulnerable to neglect. You abuse, they should prohibit the practice specifically as will not qualify for universal credit if you are under 18— they have every other form of significant harm to with some limited exceptions. The minimum wage for children. I ask my noble friend again to consider the a 16 to 17 year-old is £3.72 an hour, which makes it wisdom of such an amendment. impossible for many to live independently. This law clearly has had serious impacts on 16 to 17 year-olds. The police find it much harder to prosecute Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I thank the Minister parents or guardians of 16 and 17 year-olds for abuse for giving me the opportunity to discuss with him his or neglect because these laws do not apply to 16 and Amendments 39 and 40. I am extremely grateful to 17 year-olds. Around 16,000 young people aged 16 to him. I am happy with Amendment 39; it takes us a 17 experience a risk of homelessness as a result of long way along the road that I have been battling for conflict or relationship breakdown with their families. under the Children and Young Persons Act 1933, and Ofsted’s review of serious case reviews between 2007 I think it goes far enough. I thought that Amendment 40 and 2011 showed that 18% of cases were in relation to was unnecessary. I have now been convinced by the 14-plus year-olds. One of the issues that the review Minister that it is not unnecessary, so I am also happy highlights is that many young people in SCRs were with that. treated as adults rather than being considered as children On what the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has because of confusion about the young child’s age and said, I suspect that the offences that the police and legal status, or a lack of age-appropriate facilities. social workers did not deal with in Rotherham, for What I am really stressing is that the law is inconsistent example, were so serious that the first part of Amendment and needs clearing up. While a 16 year-old can marry, 41 would not be necessary. However, I see the point they still need permission from a parent or guardian. that the noble Baroness is making and it is, with It makes no sense that an adult can break the law if respect, a good one. Her point is that most, but not all, they sell alcohol or cigarettes to a 16 to 17 year-old, or cases come under other legislation, and that is a point smoke in a car with a 16 or 17 year-old in the back well worth taking away. seat, but not if they abuse or neglect them. I very much I agree with the noble Baroness’s point about evil support this amendment from the Children’s Society. I spirits and witchcraft. We in this country underestimate hope that the Minister will be able to take account of what goes on in relation to witchcraft. It is an extremely it and work further on what needs to be done to serious and worrying, though limited, problem in relation update this law. to children, and it ought not to be ignored. There are those who, sometimes under the guise of an obviously 5pm totally debased form of religion, are trying to exorcise children through really appalling child cruelty. The Baroness Benjamin (LD): My Lords, I rise briefly noble Baroness is raising that area and, again, with to support my noble friend Lady Walmsley on respect, the Government ought to look at that rather Amendment 41. This subject has been brought to my more carefully. attention for the last 20 years or more and it is getting worse. Just last week there was a report on the number of children who are accused of having been bewitched. Lord Swinfen (Con): I am not sure that I heard my We need to make sure that those children feel secure noble friend correctly but he talked about child cruelty and protected in the society that we live in. This is a when someone was, first, in possession of drugs and, form of cruelty, as my noble friend has said, and we secondly, under the influence of drugs. I understood must be assured in this House and in wider society him to say that they were actually under the influence that those children are protected, looked after and of the drugs of which they were charged with being in that they feel secure. The people who actually do these possession. Purely for clarification, what is the position cruel things to children—because that is what it really if they are in fact under the influence of a different is: child cruelty—must be aware that they cannot hide drug? I ask this because barriste2rs are on the whole behind religious beliefs. That is the case at the moment. extremely clever. I would like to make certain there is We need to make sure that everything is in place to no escape clause in the Bill. ensure that children feel protected and secure, and—as my noble friend said—feel that they have got somebody to whom they can turn if in need. Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB): My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, was going to speak Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, we have come back to Amendment 41A, but if he is not here I would be to a clause that was much debated in Committee. While happy to make that case—or part of it, anyhow. we very much welcomed Clause 65 and the change to Child protection law clearly defines a child as a make clear that it is a crime to inflict cruelty which is person under the age of 18. This is enshrined in the likely to cause psychological suffering or injury to a Children Act 1989 and in the United Nations Convention child, we also supported amendments tabled at the on the Rights of the Child. However, the law on time by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, neglect is 80 years old, so quite clearly it is seriously and called for by various children’s organisations, to out of date. In 1933, life as a 16 year-old was very further update the offence. As I understand it, those different. The school-leaving age at that time was 14. organisations, and indeed we ourselves, welcome the In 1931, 88.5% of males and 75.6% of females aged 16 amendments that the Government have tabled and the to 17 actively participated in the labour market. explanations they have provided. 157 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 158

However, I would like assurances on a couple of or is otherwise “legally liable to maintain” them. It issues. First, our original amendment further defined therefore goes beyond that narrow definition of parental the scope of the offence by adding the words “physically supervision to something much wider: to those who or emotionally ill-treats, physically or emotionally have responsibility for the child. neglects”. As the Minister has said, the Government I turn to the extreme religious practices that were have now tabled an amendment to clarify that the referred to by my noble friends Lady Walmsley and behaviour necessary to establish the ill-treatment limb Lady Benjamin, and other noble Lords. As my noble of the offence can be non-physical, and we welcome friend Lady Walmsley explained, Amendment 41 seeks this. to amend Section 1 of the 1933 Act to make it an Another change relates to Section 1(2)(b) of the offence for any person to allege that a child is possessed 1933 Act which makes specific provision about liability by evil spirits or has supernatural harmful powers—the for the child cruelty offence in circumstances where a unacceptable practice sometimes referred to as “witch child under the age of three has suffocated while in branding”. I am aware that my noble friend proposed bed with a drunken person. Again, the Government similar amendments during the passage of last Session’s have listened to the Committee amendment and extended Children and Families Bill and has been in correspondence the provision to cover circumstances where the person with the Department for Education regarding her is under the influence of illegal drugs, and it applies concerns. also where an adult suffocates an infant while lying next to him or her on any kind of furniture or surface. I share my noble friend’s commitment to safeguarding Again, this is welcome. children from this and all other forms of abuse. A belief system can never justify the abuse of a child. We The Committee amendment would also have removed need to ensure that children are not subjected to the reference to unnecessary suffering, which somehow abuse, or left vulnerable to potential abuse, because suggests that the suffering of children may otherwise someone alleges that they are possessed. However, the be necessary, and replaced it with a reference to serious Government believe that the current law is sufficient harm. We understand the Government’s concerns that for this purpose. It provides adequate protection for the overall impact of the amendment would be to raise children from the type of abuse that this amendment is the threshold of unnecessary suffering to serious harm, trying to prevent. While the existing legislation does but we would like to hear more of the Government’s not specifically mention communication of a belief thinking after having given further consideration to that a child is possessed by evil spirits, the current the Committee amendment. We would like assurances offence of child cruelty already captures ill treatment that the difficulties with the term “unnecessary suffering” or other conduct by a parent or carer that is likely to will be sufficiently addressed while also making sure cause a child unnecessary suffering or injury to health. that the threshold for harm is not raised. Finally, the Committee stage would have defined The Government are amending Section 1 through the word “wilful”, which many have criticised as too Clause 65 to make it absolutely clear that physical and difficult to interpret. Here, the Minister said that the psychological suffering or injury is covered by the Government felt that the concerns raised would be offence. In addition, we are now making one further best dealt with through guidance rather than by amending clarification in respect of the “ill treatment” limb of the legislation. In the light of that, we would like the offence to make it explicit that the behaviour reassurances on the following points: namely, that the amounting to “ill treatment” can be non-physical as police and others within the criminal justice system well as physical. Those changes will make it even will be made fully aware of the change in law so that clearer that conduct of the type described by my noble they understand the impact of psychological abuse; friend’s amendment is capable of being dealt with, as that guidance and directions will directly address the we believe it is, under the Section 1 offence. case-law definition of “wilful” to secure absolute clarity, Where the conduct in question could not be covered including on the inclusion of “reckless state of mind”; by the offence of child cruelty or is not committed by and that that will be communicated to all parties. I a parent or carer, it could be caught by other criminal hope that the Minister will be able to provide the offences depending on the circumstances of the case. I assurances that I seek. am aware that Department for Education officials had earlier discussed the issues around witch branding Lord Bates: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for with the Crown Prosecution Service, which makes any their contributions to this debate. I will seek to answer decision on whether a prosecution should be pursued. all the points they have raised as best as I am able. I I understand that my noble friend has been sent a copy will be mindful as I do so that I am relatively new to of the CPS guidance for prosecutors; this is an area this field, in which many of your Lordships have with which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, is also concerned. immense and deep personal knowledge and experience. The guidance illustrates which legislation and which We therefore want to give that every possible attention offences could be considered in different circumstances. and consideration. I will follow no particular order, I believe that it covers all the situations where a child but will try to follow through some of the points that might face potential harm, including those situations were raised. where the perpetrators of potential harm are third The first point was raised by my noble friend Lady parties, such as “rogue pastors”. Walmsley, who asked about Section 1 of the Children Our approach should be to ensure that the scope of and Young Persons Act; in fact the amendment is the current legislation is better understood to ensure directed at any person who, that it works as it should. We will certainly engage in “has responsibility for any child”, conversation with colleagues in the Department for 159 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 160

[LORD BATES] The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, made another point Education and with other officials to do this. We must about whether the term “unnecessary” actually needed also raise awareness among the relevant communities to be there as some considered it archaic and not relevant and faith groups. That is a very important part of to modern times and wished for it to be deleted. combating this problem: not only catching the offences Others want to use “serious or significant harm”, with when they happen but supporting work to raise awareness. “harm” defined broadly, to include “the impairment I am sure my noble friends are aware that the Department of physical, intellectual, emotional, social or behavioural for Education is part of the national working group development”. It seems to us that the overall impact of on the issue, which published an action plan in 2012. such a change would be to raise the threshold of The department is funding two organisations, “unnecessary suffering” to “serious harm”. AFRUCA and the Victoria Climbié Foundation, which work with black and minority ethnic communities on 5.15 pm safeguarding issues. In addition, part of the Department Lord Rosser: I think I had accepted what the for Education grant to Children and Families Across Government had said: if you use the words “serious Borders has been used to produce an online application harm”, it would raise the threshold. However, I asked to raise awareness of issues relating to witchcraft and for assurances that the difficulties with the term spirit possession, which was launched earlier this year. “unnecessary suffering” will be sufficiently addressed This issue is an ongoing concern for the Department rather than just being left. I had accepted the Government’s for Education and the Home Office, and I know that point that if you put in “serious harm” you might end they will value enormously my noble friend’s input up raising the threshold, but that still does not address into developing an appropriate response. the issue of the reference to “unnecessary suffering” My eagle-eyed noble friend Lord Swinfen spotted a with the implication, almost, that there can be such a potential gap in the existing law. The relevant wording thing as necessary suffering as far as children are is that the person would need to have been in possession concerned. of the drug that they had taken and of which they are under the influence. There would need to be evidence that the person was in illegal possession of that drug Lord Bates: I am grateful to the noble Lord for his immediately before taking it. My noble friend highlighted clarification of his position, which I certainly accept. that point and thought that it could be an area that a In this context, I refer him back to the reassurances skilful barrister might be able to argue his way round. given by my noble friend Lord Taylor in Committee, That may be the case and we will have to see how it is to which I referred previously. That guidance, and the tested. However, that is the test which is required understanding of how the rules should be applied by under existing law. front-line professionals, will, of course, be taken very seriously indeed. We want to make sure that people I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for understand that thoroughly. his welcome of the amendment. He asked about replacing the reference to “wilfully” with the word “recklessly” In response to the point made by the noble Baroness, or defining it as meaning that a person with responsibility Lady Howe, about the age of 16 or 17, young people for a child foresaw that an act or omission regarding that aged 16 or over are lawfully able to be married, and are child would be likely to result in harm, but nonetheless generally deemed capable of living independently of unreasonably took that risk. There is a well established their parents. Those under the age of 16 are generally body of case law that sets out the meaning of the term more vulnerable and dependent on those who care for “wilful” in this context. It clearly provides, among them. For this reason, we believe it is right that Section 1 other things, that “wilful” already implies an intentional of the 1933 Act is focused on protecting persons under or reckless state of mind. the age of 16. I realise that there is a campaign—if I may call it that—or movement that seeks to change 5.15 pm that through the UN convention but, at the moment and in this context, we feel that 16 is the right threshold. We are concerned that inserting a definition of I have tried to address most of the points raised by “wilfully” into Section 1 of the 1933 Act would risk noble Lords in response to my moving the amendment. creating uncertainty in respect of the significant number I beg to move. of other existing offences subject to the “wilful” mental state; for example, the offence of wilfully neglecting a person lacking mental capacity under Section 44 of Amendment 39 agreed. the Mental Capacity Act 2005 being taken forward in the Criminal Justice and Courts Bill. For these reasons, Amendment 40 the Government cannot agree to the proposed changes. That said, I reiterate the assurance given by my noble Moved by Lord Bates friend Lord Taylor in Committee—namely, that Ministry 40: Clause 65, page 48, line 43, at end insert— of Justice officials are liaising with the Department for “( ) In subsection (2), in paragraph (b)— Education, the Crown Prosecution Service and the police (a) after “to bed” insert “or at any later time before the on whether any updates or revisions to the relevant suffocation”; guidance would be necessary to ensure that the effect (b) after “drink” insert “or a prohibited drug”. of Section 1 of the 1933 Act, as amended, including ( ) After that subsection insert— the correct understanding of “wilfully”, is clearly “(2A) The reference in subsection (2)(b) to the infant being “in understood and appropriately applied by front-line bed” with another (“the adult”) includes a reference to the infant professionals. lying next to the adult in or on any kind of furniture or surface 161 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 162 being used by the adult for the purpose of sleeping (and the what the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said. I understand reference to the time when the adult “went to bed” is to be read his concern that the police might have a power greater accordingly). than they have in other powers but something needs to (2B) A drug is a prohibited drug for the purposes of be done, which is why I have raised the matter again. I subsection (2)(b) in relation to a person if the person’s possession of the drug immediately before taking it constituted an offence beg to move. under section 5(2) of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971.”” Amendment 40 agreed. Baroness Walmsley: This proposal came out of a parliamentary inquiry co-ordinated by Barnardo’s and Amendments 41 and 41A not moved. chaired by Sarah Champion MP.Two of my noble friends, my noble friend Lady Benjamin and my noble kinsman Amendment 42 Lord Thomas of Gresford, and I were both on that Moved by Baroness Butler-Sloss inquiry. We heard first-hand what others have been 42: After Clause 65, insert the following new Clause— able only to read: the evidence for making this change “Child abduction warning order to the law. It was very interesting and moving to hear In section 2 of the Child Abduction Act 1984 (offence of the evidence of the victims. It was also moving to hear abduction of child by other person), after subsection (3) the evidence of the police who are committed to insert— protecting children but feel that they do not have “(4) A chief officer of police may issue an order under this sufficient tools to do so. section (a “child abduction warning order”) in respect of a person Our focus should be on prevention or at the very (“A”) if it appears that the following conditions are met— least on the earliest possible intervention. The police (a) A is over 18; and are asking for this power to be made statutory so that (b) A has without lawful authority or reasonable excuse they can enforce it at an earlier stage of the grooming been found in the company of a child (“C”); and process. It was made very clear that many of these (c) C is reported missing and is found on two or more young girls are quite willingly in the company of older occasions to be in the company of A; or people who eventually abuse them. One young person (d) there is reason to suspect that C’s behaviour is, by reason who gave evidence to us said that she genuinely thought of association with the defendant, giving significant that these people were her friends and the only people cause for concern. who cared about her in the world. That indicates that (5) An order under subsection (4) prohibits A from being in the company of C. these young people are not there because they have (6) A person who, without reasonable excuse, does anything been physically abducted; they are there willingly. Very that he or she is prohibited from doing under a child abduction often, in a prosecution, they are not willing to give warning order commits an offence. evidence that they have been abducted. (7) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable— Passing this amendment, or something very similar, (a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not would strengthen young people’s confidence in the exceeding 6 months or a fine (or both); police. Currently, the approach has a further damaging (b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term effect because it erodes the confidence of victims and not exceeding 5 years. their families in the ability of the police to protect (8) The Secretary of State must issue guidance to chief officers them when they see that an abuser has broken the of police in relation to the exercise by them of their powers with terms of a child abduction notice but no action is regard to child abduction warning orders. taken. That is why we need to make it statutory. (9) The Secretary of State may, from time to time, revise the guidance issued under this section. (10) The Secretary of State must arrange for any guidance Lord Rosser: I certainly do not intend to repeat the issued or revised under this section to be published in such arguments that have already been made in Committee manner as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.”” and on Report in favour of this amendment. As the Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I am moving Minister will well know, in his response in Committee, again the amendment relating to child abduction warning the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, accepted notices which I raised in Committee. I do not want to that proposals to strengthen the impact of child abduction go through everything that was said on that occasion. warning notices had the support of the police, legal I was supported by the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley experts, representatives of local agencies, young people and Lady Howarth, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who had been affected by sexual exploitation, children’s who also supports my bringing this amendment before charities and others. The then Minister undertook to the House again. The problem is that the police do not consider carefully the benefits of putting these notices have adequate powers to deal with grooming of young on a statutory footing and how such a statutory scheme girls at the point at which the girl is in the process of might operate. He indicated that the Government were being groomed but has not yet been taken off and committed to examining the case for placing child sexually abused, raped or whatever. It is at a relatively abduction warning notices on a statutory footing but early stage, but if it is not stopped it will carry on, as said that, while the Government may not have completed we know from a number of cities around the country. their review by Report stage, he would update the The quite simple point, as was very neatly expressed House on progress. I may have missed a letter but I am by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in Committee, is that not aware of the Government having completed their the current notice that the police have leads to no review. action being taken unless the threshold of an abduction Among the issues that the then Minister felt needed threat has been met. This applies to the stage before to be considered were whether it was appropriate the actual abduction threat. I am not happy about for the police to impose an order or injunction, breach 163 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 164

[LORD ROSSER] Over the summer, Home Office officials have worked of which is a criminal offence; the test for the grant of with policing colleagues to examine the issues in more an order; the prohibitions or restrictions that might be detail. Discussions have taken place with colleagues attached to an order; the penalty for breach of an order; representing the National Policing Lead for Child and the reference in the amendment requiring a child Protection, the national policing co-ordinator on child to have been found two or more times in the company sexual exploitation, the CEOP—Child Exploitation of the person to be made the subject of an order. On and Online Protection Centre—command of the NCA these issues, which were raised by the then Minister in and the College of Policing. While, in some cases there Committee, as far as I am aware, we await the may be merit in the statutory offence of breaching Government’s conclusions. I am assured that all those child abduction warning notices, it has become clear groups and bodies interested in this specific issue are through these discussions that the effectiveness of the happy to work with the Government to resolve these current system is in its simplicity and non-bureaucratic points. process. Such notices are intended to disrupt predatory behaviour and stop access to a vulnerable child. They Lord Bates: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned are often a useful step along the path towards more Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, for tabling this amendment formal orders, and it is suggested that the immediacy and for giving me the opportunity to put on the record of these notices could be inhibited by the need to some of the developments that have occurred over the apply for an order from the court. summer, since my noble friend Lord Taylor addressed this issue in Committee on 15 July. I also congratulate Existing non-statutory child abduction warning notices my noble friend Lady Walmsley on the work of the are issued by the police. That is entirely appropriate committee that produced the report. I have had an where breach of a notice is not, of itself, a criminal opportunity to see and to review it. It produced some offence. As my noble friend Lord Taylor indicated in disturbing material and we need to get that material Committee, it would be an unusual step to invest directly and that evidence into the policy process. I will set out in the police—rather than in the court—a power to what we are doing in response in my remarks. impose what amounts to a restraint order or an injunction, We can all agree that child sexual exploitation is a breach of which is a criminal offence. Compare, for horrendous crime; the Government are determined to example, restraining orders under the Protection from stamp it out. We have seen this from the dreadful Harassment Act 1997, which are granted by the courts. events in Rotherham, as highlighted by Professor Alexis Other civil preventive orders such as serious crime Jay’s report, where there were appalling failures by the prevention orders and gang injunctions, which are council, the police and other agencies to protect vulnerable dealt with elsewhere in the Bill, are also subject to children. We were all sickened to read about the victims judicial oversight. We will continue to consider carefully in Rotherham and the horrific experiences to which they with policing colleagues their views on the potential were subjected. Many have also suffered the injustice use of a statutory notice and whether, in their view, of seeing their cries for help ignored and the perpetrators further changes are required better to protect children. not yet brought to justice. Our priority must be the It is important to note here the wider work taking prosecution of the people behind these disgusting crimes. place across government to protect children. The Home Where there has been a failure to protect children Secretary is chairing meetings with other Secretaries from abuse, we will expose it and learn from it. I am of State to look at what happened in Rotherham. We grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady will consider the findings of Professor Jay’s report and Butler-Sloss, for again articulating the case for putting consider what the state at every level should do to child abduction warning notices on a statutory footing. prevent this appalling situation happening again. The We note that there is support for this position from the meetings will build on the existing work of the Home police, legal experts, children’s charities and others. Office-led national group to tackle sexual violence Police forces are tackling child grooming for sexual against children and vulnerable people, which is bringing exploitation. This is clear from the increasing number the full range of agencies working in this area together of these cases before the courts and the significant better to protect those at risk and create a victim-focused sentences being handed down to perpetrators. There culture within the police, health and children’s services. will always be more to do. The Home Secretary has In July, the Home Secretary made a Statement about written to all chief constables to ask them to take on the sexual abuse of children, announcing the establishment board the lessons from the Jay report into the failings of an independent inquiry panel of experts in the law of Rotherham, and from the rolling Her Majesty’s and child protection to consider further whether public Inspectorate of Constabulary inspections into how bodies and other non-state institutions have taken forces are protecting children. seriously their duty of care to protect children from Amendment 42 is an important contribution to this sexual abuse. The inquiry panel will be chaired by debate. The existing non-statutory child abduction Fiona Woolf. warning notices are issued by the police. That is entirely Given what I said, there is still more work to be appropriate where breach of a notice is not, of itself, a done on this issue to find a position that balances the criminal offence. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, need of police forces to be able to take appropriate, reminded us, in Committee, my noble friend Lord effective and timely action when required and the need Taylor undertook to examine further the case for for safeguards, including appropriate judicial oversight. placing child abduction warning notices on a statutory On this point, we still need to be convinced that making footing. I am grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, the change does not affect the simplicity, speed and Lady Butler-Sloss, for affording me this opportunity unbureaucratic nature of the existing process. I hope to update the House. and expect that we will have completed our consideration 165 Serious Crime Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Bishops and Priests Measure 166 of this proposal before the Bill completes its passage The Archbishop of Canterbury: My Lords, it is now through the House of Commons. I will, of course, 95 years since Parliament conferred on the Church of notify the noble and learned Baroness and other noble England the power to initiate legislation, which, following Lords who have spoken in this debate of the outcome parliamentary approval and Royal Assent, becomes of our consideration of this issue. Indeed, I would add part of the of England. that, given the level of expertise in this House, it would be extremely useful if interested noble Lords Most of the Measures passed by the Church Assembly would join me in a discussion with officials and other and, since 1970, by the General Synod have been necessary representatives so that they can see some of the responses but modest revisions of the church’s rule book and we have already had about data, and the number of the law of England. Texts such as the Church of notices that have been issued and their effect, soon England (Miscellaneous Provisions) Measure 2014 or after the conclusion of our deliberations today, and the Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure 2011 certainly in the next few weeks. That will ensure that were not framed with excitement in mind, but even we can draw on the input and expertise of this House. they sound positively racy compared with that early I know that the noble and learned Baroness would piece of Church Assembly legislation considered by have liked to hear something more definitive in my this House in the days of Archbishop Davidson—the response today, but I ask her to bear with us and Ecclesiastical Dilapidations Measure 1923. Just accept that the intentions of Her Majesty’s Government occasionally, though, the church brings to Parliament are those of all noble Lords: we are absolutely resolute legislation which is of more significance and effect. in respect of this heinous crime. I hope that she will The Church of England (Worshipand Doctrine) Measure agree to withdraw her amendment at this stage. 1974 was one such, and so was the legislation passed by Synod in 1992 to enable women to be ordained Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I thank all those priests in the Church of England. who have taken part in this short debate and the Minister for setting out the thought processes of the This evening—or late this afternoon, as noble Government, together with those who have been advising Lords have been so quick on criminal justice—the them. I am not entirely happy, as the Minister would House has before it another piece of legislation designed expect. Perhaps I may start by saying that it is not the to achieve a change of historic significance, at least police in Rotherham who I was talking about because in church terms. Its effect is to enable the Church of they failed the children. It is the police who do not fail England, for the first time, to open all three orders children in other parts of the country and are issuing of ministry—deacons, priests and bishops—without the child abduction notice who are concerned about reference to gender. The process that was begun by the its ineffectiveness. That, I think, is the point. I understand legislation to enable women to become deacons in the the advantages of an immediate notice and I can see 1980s and then priests in the 1990s will at last be that it is a disadvantage that an immediate notice completed by legislation which enables women to become necessarily has a statutory backing. But I wonder if bishops—and indeed, archbishops, since they are not the Minister could take away what I was thinking a separate order of ministry in the Church of England. about while I listened to what he said. It may be that if Over the past 20 years many women have given the notice is immediately disregarded, one ought then outstanding leadership as vicars, archdeacons and to be looking at some sort of statutory notice that cathedral deans. Now for the first time every post will would make it a requirement to go to the magistrates’ be open to them. court because it would be the second time. What you For many people within the Church of England—and want to do is catch the groomers before they become others, looking at it from outside—it has been a process child abductors and rapists. It is this early stage that full of frustration. It has been somewhat baffling, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and I are particularly particularly in recent years, that something which concerned about. However, I would welcome the seems so simple and obvious should have become such opportunity to take part in any discussions, as I am a considerable problem. After all, surely the big step sure would the noble Baroness—she is nodding—so was taken in the early 1990s with the admission of do please ask us to take part. On that basis, I beg leave women to the priesthood. That indeed is true theologically to withdraw the amendment. and psychologically. What matters to most people in Amendment 42 withdrawn. the church is who the vicar is. For people in parishes the person who matters most is the vicar. Consideration on Report adjourned. Nevertheless, the Church of England at the Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Reformation did not opt for a system of congregational or Presbyterian governance. We remained, like the Ordination of Women) Measure Roman Catholic and Orthodox communions, an episcopal Motion to Direct church where bishops are the leaders in mission and 5.35 pm ministry and give authority to others as ordained ministers of the gospel through the laying on of hands. Moved by The Archbishop of Canterbury Above all, they are the focus of unity. That is very That this House do direct that, in accordance relevant to the structure of this Measure. It is because with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) bishops are at the heart of Anglican polity—indeed, Act 1919, the Bishops and Priests (Consecration they are included in the Lambeth-Chicago Quadrilateral and Ordination of Women) Measure be presented as one of the four defining features of Anglicanism—that to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent. the process of securing agreement to this legislation 167 Bishops and Priests Measure[LORDS] Bishops and Priests Measure 168

[THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY] Under the declaration of the House of Bishops, has been so long and difficult. The heart of the dilemma there will be some occasions when some bishops—men has been how to try and maintain the theological as well as women—will need to ask another bishop to breadth and diversity of the Church of England while exercise some of their functions in relation to a particular securing a solution which avoids any appearance of parish. If episcopal posts were public offices, as defined equivocation over the Church of England’s commitment in the Equality Act, appointing to them in the expectation to equality between men and women. that the person concerned would observe that self-denying ordinance would constitute discrimination in the terms In November 2012 the Measure failed and it looked in which the appointment was offered. We do not as if the circle could not be squared. By a narrow believe that episcopal offices fall within the definition margin in the House of Laity of six votes the General of “public office” in the Equality Act—life Peers do Synod rejected legislation at the final approval stage not either, for that matter—but it is unclear what view despite the fact that it had received approval from all the courts would take if the matter were ever tested, so but two of the dioceses in the country. In the course of Clause 2 puts the matter beyond any doubt. last year, however, perhaps chastened by that sobering experience and the very adverse reaction across the Secondly, one of the many happy consequences of country, people from a wide range of convictions in this Measure will be that the Benches of the Lords spiritual the Church of England came together and put together will in due course include women as well as men, but the Measure before us. The result is a very simple piece that could take some time if the normal seniority system of legislation, buttressed both by a declaration from were simply left to take its course. We have a bunch of the House of Bishops setting out five key principles young and vigorous Bishops who are not going to retire and by regulations, made under canon, to establish a too soon, and they really do not die very often. The grievance procedure with an ombudsperson, which Synod did not have the power to include in the Measure will be overseen by independent review. amendments to the law on the issuing of parliamentary writs, but there has been consultation with all the For traditional Catholics and headship evangelicals, main parties on the possibility of a very short and it remains a matter of regret that the Church of simple government Bill which could be taken through England has taken the decision that it has, but they this Session to accelerate the arrival of the first women accept that the arrival of women bishops is the clear Lords spiritual. There has been solid cross-party support wish of the overwhelming majority within the Church and I very much hope that the Government will be of England and, in general, people have signalled their able to find a suitable legislative slot very shortly. wish to remain as loyal members of this church for as The Measure before your Lordships today is very long as it has a respected place for them. Similarly, for long overdue. The arrival of women Bishops in this many of the advocates for gender equality, it remains a House is equally long overdue. I commend to you the matter of regret that the Church of England has made Motion standing in my name. special arrangements for those who on the grounds of theological conviction are unable to receive the ministry of women priests or bishops. Lord Lloyd of Berwick (CB): My Lords, this is, on any view, an important debate, for the reasons given Nevertheless, the overwhelming majorities at Final by the most reverend Primate. I wonder how many of Approval in the three Houses of Synod—95% in the your Lordships remember, as I do, the equally momentous House of Bishops, 87% in the House of Clergy and occasion 21 years ago when we debated the Priests 77% in the House of Laity, majorities which in this (Ordination of Women) Measure. That Measure, too, House would be considered moderately comfortable— had a very long gestation period, but there was one signal the commitment that there is to delivering this speech that I particularly remember on that occasion— historic change while, so far as possible, maintaining others of your Lordships might remember it, too—and the traditional diversity of the church. that was the speech of Lord Runcie, who had recently retired from being archbishop to the comparative safety It is not simply for reasons of history or nostalgia of the Cross Benches. I remember him describing what that we wish to remain a broad church. Reconciliation had occurred as having been not unlike a battlefield, in is at the heart of the Christian message; in fact, it has which he described himself as being one of the “walking been said that it is the Christian message. It is a wounded”. It was a most wonderful expression to have message which, as the discussions in this House during used, and must in itself have won over a number of the past few weeks have shown, the world desperately your Lordships on that occasion. needs. The example of being able to live with difference I also remember him listing, quite distinctly, the and yet to live in unity is called for more and more. We qualities that he looked for when interviewing potential may regard other members of the Christian family as candidates for ordination. He went on to say that he irritating, embarrassing or plain wrong, but they are found those qualities every bit as common among part of the family and we do not choose our families. women as among men. In some ways, he thought they There is much else that I could say, but let me in would add something, so he simply said, “Why not?”. conclusion simply add two other points. First, I want I remember that I was totally convinced by that argument. to note that Clause 2 constitutes what in our view and I think your Lordships then were convinced by that, that of government lawyers is a clarificatory provision too. He has, of course, been proved right. concerning the definition of “public office” in the I do not overlook the fact that there are still 1,650 Equality Act. This is a complex area which we covered parishes—I think it is—where ResolutionsA&Bare in some detail in our memorandum to the Ecclesiastical still in force. The fact remains, however, that women Committee, which is annexed to the committee’s report. priests now make up one-third of all our serving clergy 169 Bishops and Priests Measure[14 OCTOBER 2014] Bishops and Priests Measure 170 and that proportion, I suspect, is likely to increase. There Baroness Berridge (Con): My Lords, who would are already 22 women archdeacons and six women deans. have thought that last business on a cold and wet Why, as has been asked, has it taken so long to take Tuesday could be so significant, so exciting? In fact, I this last step? In the words of Frank Field at the meeting called a rather bemused Table Office at 10 minutes to of the Ecclesiastical Committee, to which I shall be coming five on the last day of the summer term when I saw the back a little later, what, in the end, has all the fuss been Measure on forthcoming business and inquired urgently, about? If one asks the same question as Lord Runcie “Am I allowed to speak?”. I have therefore been musing asked 21 years ago, surely the qualities necessary to this summer what I should say on this seriously exciting make a good diocesan or suffragan bishop are every stuff if you are a woman attending an Anglican church. bit as frequently found among women as they are among Perhaps I should briefly elaborate. If you are a men. Therefore, to that question, I would answer an woman in 21st century Britain and you take for granted emphatic yes. Certainly, it has proved to be the case in your freedoms, you just need to read a novel such as A the other Anglican communions overseas, where women Thousand Splendid Suns by Khaled Hosseini, describing bishops have been in existence for many years. life today for Afghani women, to know how fortunate Unlike Frank Field, however—and I do not want you are. If you are a woman in politics and lacking to take up too much time—I am not surprised that it vision, you have just to pop to Victoria Gardens and has taken so long to reach the position that we have stare at the statue of Emmeline Pankhurst; you will now reached. I do not think that the church is in any soon find fresh inspiration. way to be criticised on that account. I say that for two Women in leadership in the church is, of course, a reasons. In the first place, the theological convictions trickier issue. With a few notable exceptions such as of those who opposed women priests 21 years ago have Elizabeth Fry, we are not brimming with role models not lessened in the mean time. Indeed, their difficulties in leadership—or so I thought until three years ago, could be said to have been, in a sense, compounded by when I visited the Anglican cathedral in Kampala, the fact that we are now talking about the consecration Uganda. And there you will find plaques on the wall of bishops and not the ordination of priests. Secondly, to the people who left England in the late 19th and early and equally important, there is the ecumenical argument, 20th centuries at the invitation of the king of Buganda, which is simply not to be brushed aside. One can just who had asked the Anglicans to come with their about imagine the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian message. I noticed that the plaques on the communions accepting women priests in our lifetime, wall fell into two distinct categories: the first was of but it is clear that, for them, women bishops are simply small family groups, such as Dr and Mrs Manning out of the question. That is clear from paragraph 25 of and their six year-old child; and then there were women— Annex 1, if your Lordships would like to refer to it. women who left England alone to go to a land that they For those who have put so much effort into bringing had never even see in a photograph and never came the communions together, this will be a hard pill to home. Perhaps they would have gone anyway, even if, swallow. One must bear that in mind. at that time, they had been allowed to use their talents For those reasons, I am not surprised that it has in English parishes. However, I suspect that many women taken so long. As for the failure of the Synod to reach went overseas as, at that time, it was one of the few agreement, as it so nearly did, as the most reverend options for them to use their talents. The irony that Primate explained, in November 2012, that was a great they taught and led congregations of black men may sadness—one suspects, particularly for the noble and only have dawned on later generations. No one knows right reverend Lord, Lord Williams. the names of these women, but they are role models. Their However, the church was quick to learn from that legacy is obvious, as after exporting much of the best failure, and the Synod was surely right to make a fresh talent for decades, if not centuries, it is perhaps no surprise start under the inspired leadership, if I may say so, of that 98% of the Anglican Church is outside England, the right reverend Primate, for all four reasons set out and much of it is growing numerically very quickly. in Annex 2. The new Measure seems to me to be a Since I decided to speak, the issue of the best talent great improvement on the previous one. As we know, for leadership has arisen in another guise for the it has been passed by all the dioceses without exception Anglican Church, which the recruitment of women as with great majorities in every case. It came before the bishops may inadvertently assist. There are no published Ecclesiastical Committee, which I have already mentioned. data on the social background of the leadership of the We had a full meeting with the representatives of the Anglican Church, but the Church Times journalist legislative committee of the Synod. We asked them all Madeleine Davies applied the criteria from the recent sorts of questions. I remember shrewd questions from report by Alan Milburn’s social mobility commission the noble Lords, Lord Glenarthur, Lord Plant and Lord to the current Anglican leadership and found that half Judd. It seems to me that the team led by the most reverend of our bishops are from public schools. Although I Primate answered all our questions to our great rate the most reverend Primate as the most down-to-earth satisfaction. When the Motion was put, it was passed Etonian I have ever met, I am keenly aware that this is unanimously—again, unlike on the previous occasion. treading-on-eggshells territory. Half the bishops may I hope that we will follow the lead of the Ecclesiastical have been on assisted places to attend such schools, Committee and, like the most reverend Primate, I and there was certainly no chapel at my state hope that it will not be long before we can welcome comprehensive, so that might be the explanation. our first woman bishop as a Member of this House. I am convinced that God, who lived on earth as a That would clearly involve, by agreement, finding some skilled craftsman, has given the competence to lead way to accelerate their progress, but I hope that we will churches to some unusual suspects. Women as bishops do just that. For that reason, I support the Motion. will probably give a head start to broadening the 171 Bishops and Priests Measure[LORDS] Bishops and Priests Measure 172

[BARONESS BERRIDGE] senior women in the Church of England, who for many educational background among leaders, and I hope that years had a residential meeting once a year in the the work of my noble friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint beautiful St George’s House within Windsor Castle. to talent-spot and develop leadership will include looking Those women had become quite senior—they were at barriers to entry, recruitment in your own image archdeacons or deans—but, alas, they had banged and unconscious bias, which we all carry. Perhaps my their heads against the concrete ceiling which the noble friend could do a wee investigation of those on church, my church, had then imposed upon them. I the approved list held by the Crown Nominations cannot tell you of the immense pain which many of Commission to see what the future trend might be. those women suffered with the feeling that their own There is one additional aspect that my noble friend church, which they loved and served, still did not Lord Green might consider that did not trouble Alan recognise the potential that they had. As a lay member Milburn but may disproportionally affect women in of that group and the church, I say how infinitely the church. I was so troubled by this issue that when I humiliating it was to feel that the church that I loved—and, attended Synod in York I mentioned it to Dr Caroline if I may say so, that I found it increasingly difficult to Boddington, who I understand holds the list I mentioned. love—continued to reject the potential of those wonderful I referred to the women going to Buganda alone. They women within it, who performed at all sorts of levels were, of course, single women. Marital status, I am in the church in a way which made it so greatly told, is irrelevant to selection, but if an institution enriched by the work that they did. which has so many single people in its ranks ends up disproportionately promoting married people, one might I feel that I speak in this House for those women, want to investigate. God was, after all, a skilled craftsman because they are not here today. I listened to their who was single. stories over those many years when we met. The one The Measure before your Lordships’ House is a thing which I think was most outstanding about them wonderful opportunity for the church to be a role was their immense patience. They put up with the way model for our boardrooms, Armed Forces and, indeed, that they were treated. One woman who was extremely Parliament to show how leadership is done at its best. senior—I will not mention her role—had to work with I thoroughly welcome the transitional provisions to male colleagues who refused to take the host when she see women bishops join this House earlier than the was officiating and met without her at key meetings current system would allow. I hope that the heart of because they did not wish to have her voice heard. the most reverend Primate is not sinking at my high There were women who were criticised because their expectations of future leadership by both men and high heels clonked as they walked in procession up the women in the church. I have always believed it is a aisle of the church, and so on. There were unbelievable miracle that this state comp girl is a Conservative Peer. stories and yet they remained patient and conciliatory. All that I have outlined is eminently possible. An They were willing to give and to understand the views exciting era is about to begin. of those who disagreed with them and wanted to continue to reject them and their calling. These were Lord Griffiths of Burry Port (Lab): My Lords, I will women who genuinely felt that they had a vocation to make a short speech, if I may, at several levels. First, as serve in the church, not women who were trying to a member of the human race committed to fighting push themselves forward because they wanted promotion, for gender equality and the smashing of glass ceilings yet time and again their sense of vocation had to be that prevent women from rising to the very top of put to one side. institutions, I welcome this proposal. Secondly, as a member of the Ecclesiastical Committee, I simply reiterate the support that I gave for this Measure when I simply want to put on the record the immense the committee met earlier. It is about time, too. We all courage and patience which those women showed in think that, and we now just want the action to proceed. all the negotiations, which were painful. If you are on Thirdly, as a member and former president of the the receiving end of a refusal of recognition, it is not Methodist Conference, I am determined that it should much fun; yet, as I say, they continued to work patiently not simply be Anglican voices that give expression to with the people who disagreed with them and wished their delight in this debate; Methodists across the land to exclude them, giving concession after concession will rejoice at it. We will of course endeavour not to over the years. I cannot tell you how immensely happy gloat at the tardy joining of Methodists by Anglicans I am at the passing of this Measure today. I remember on the road that sees women in top leadership. Fourthly, one occasion when we were meeting down in Windsor as the husband of a wife who is a direct descendant of and were joined by the wonderful Bishop Wolf from the Pankhurst family—my wife is sitting in the Chamber America. I speak of the immensely moving moment at the moment so I had better say the right thing—I when, after a couple of days of Bishop Wolf being have learnt what can be achieved by the determination simply Jo—she was just one of the girls when we were of women seeking after justice and righteousness. all chatting, having our breakfast and lunch or in our Finally, in my own right, I want to be able to show my discussions together, and so on—at the end of our grandchildren with great pride my name on the record meeting, the person who was chairing it turned to her when this Measure was accepted. and said, “Bishop, would you give us your blessing as we leave?”. The moment when a woman stood up and 6pm gave me her blessing as a bishop was one of the most Baroness Perry of Southwark (Con): My Lords, I moving of my life. I look forward very much to having was immensely privileged to be co-opted over many this in my own church, here in England and in the years as the only lay woman in a group of the most United Kingdom. I welcome the Measure. 173 Bishops and Priests Measure[14 OCTOBER 2014] Bishops and Priests Measure 174

Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB): My Lords, first, I whether such a PCC can request a non-discriminating declare my interest as a vice-president of WATCH, or bishop under the new arrangements. It is also silent on Women and the Church. Naturally, WATCH warmly whether such PCCs have access to the newly created welcomes this Measure. We also especially congratulate independent reviewer of disputes, who is to pronounce the most reverend Primate and the Synod on achieving on, a solution to what seemed an intractable problem, as “any aspect of the operation of the House of Bishops’ Declaration”. we have heard from others, and for doing it in such a Thirdly, can the most reverend Primate confirm short time. that any newly appointed conservative evangelical However, I still wonder whether there might be headship bishop will minister only to parishes that some problems for senior women who might be considered request his ministry? There appear to be two possible for episcopal appointments. One is that they may have models for the appointment of a headship bishop. served many years in more junior positions despite One would be the “flying bishop” model instituted by their gifts and experience, and therefore be older than the Act of Synod of 1993. In this model such a bishop the usual run of candidates. Further, while some have would minister only to those parishes that specifically already achieved high office, others might not have requested his oversight. The other—and, one has to had the opportunity to follow the path which has say, much less acceptable—model would be to make a previously been the norm for candidates to high office. suffragan appointment to a specific see. In this case As we have already heard, there have been some the majority of parishes under his oversight would not examples of why that may well have benefited many wish to receive the oversight of a bishop wedded to the other parts of the world. It is therefore not altogether concept of the subordination of women. something to be totally sad about. Fourthly, and finally, can the most reverend Primate The second issue relates to the arrangements for the confirm that Clause 2 of the Measure will have the appointment of Lords spiritual. New diocesan bishops effect of allowing the church to discriminate exclusively normally have to wait their turn, which can take five on grounds of gender and will not facilitate discrimination years or more. Members of both Houses have expressed on grounds of sexuality and remarriage after divorce? concerns on this point in relation to newly appointed Clause 2 of the Measure declares that the office of women bishops and would be interested to know of bishop is not a public office—and we have had that any arrangements to appoint women to this House as confirmed by the most reverend Primate—and therefore early as possible. That point has also begun to surface, is not bound by Section 50 of the Equality Act 2010. I think. This clause is crucial to the regime for women bishops set out in the House of Bishops’ declaration, because We have before us a very short Measure on which that regime depends in part upon arrangements that this House needs to decide. However, the substance of discriminate against women. Reluctantly, women and it lies in the declaration of the House of Bishops and supporters of women bishops have accepted it on this supporting documents. This declaration sets out the basis. However, the effect of this clause is finally and arrangements by which clergy and laity who dissent irrevocably to exempt the bishops from the anti- from the Measure can still continue to worship and discrimination requirements of the Equalities Act 2010, function as members of the Church of England. WATCH not only in relation to gender but also in relation to fully accepts that declaration and recognises its importance other protected characteristics under that Act, including, in achieving the goal of seeing women appointed as most importantly for the church, sexuality and remarriage bishops. Naturally we shall rejoice, as will virtually the after divorce. Verbal assurances have been given that whole church, when that occurs. Nevertheless, inevitably, the bishops will not avail themselves of that exception, these arrangements incorporate some measures of and I think that that is also what the most reverend discrimination against women and give rise to questions Primate was telling us, but to have that assurance recorded which may not have been tackled in the very short in Hansard would really be a great help. I very much time allowed for framing this legislation. look forward to the most reverend Primate’s reply. I have four specific questions which I hope the most reverend Primate will be able to answer, and I think Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, I thank the most that he has already hinted at the direction in some of reverend Primate for the most generous way in which his comments. First, can the Archbishops confirm he introduced this Measure. I also pay tribute to the that they will continue to observe the long-standing noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, who is the chairman tradition of consecrating each new bishop? The document of the Ecclesiastical Committee—a committee on which was silent on this point, but the most reverend Primate I had the honour to sit for some 40 years—for the will appreciate how important it is for the validation understanding way in which he spoke. of the episcopal orders of women and of those male I do not wish to enter a jarring note in this debate, bishops who ordain women. nor do I wish that anything I should say should Secondly, how can congregations in favour of the diminish the delight and joy of those who have an ordained ministry of women request the episcopal unreserved welcome for this Measure. However, this is ministry of a non-discriminating bishop? As I understand a debating Chamber, and where there are diversities of it, the bishops’ declaration allows for parochial church views it is important that those views should be voiced, councils—PCCs—on behalf of their congregations, to if only briefly. I happen to belong to what Archbishop request the episcopal ministry of a male bishop. However, Hope—now the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord there are already parishes that have a woman priest Hope—referred to very memorably in earlier debates but whose bishop does not recognise that priest’s on the ordination of women as the traditional integrity orders. The declaration is silent on the question of within the Church of England. I have the great good 175 Bishops and Priests Measure[LORDS] Bishops and Priests Measure 176

[LORD CORMACK] We all attend prayers taken by a Bishop of the fortune of being able to worship every Sunday in the Church of England every day in this House. I hope cathedral of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Lincoln. Before that all of your Lordships, whether members of the I moved from Staffordshire, I was churchwarden of Church of England or not, spare a thought for those the church of St Mary in Enville in the diocese of Lichfield. of us for whom this is not a day of unalloyed rejoicing— For me, this is not a matter of equality in the although I do rejoice with those who are particularly secular sense to which the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, happy that this Measure is before us tonight. alluded in her speech. I honour the position of women in all walks of life. I revere the Blessed Virgin Mary, second only to our Lord himself. I have had the great Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, to follow my noble privilege of being associated with some very fine women friend Lord Cormack when I clearly come from a very leaders in various walks of life, including the noble different position might seem difficult, but I respect Baroness, Lady Howe; I have worked in a secular everything that he has said. I start by relating an capacity with her for several years on matters of anecdote. My step-grandmother died earlier this year. equality. So this is not a matter of gender discrimination. She was absolutely clear that she did not want her local However, I happen to believe—this matter was referred woman vicar to take her funeral. The loving generosity to with great understanding by the noble and learned of the incumbent not only to make the arrangements Lord, Lord Lloyd—that the majority of Christendom for somebody else to come and take that service but cannot be just lightly brushed aside. I talk of the also to remove herself from the village on that day was Roman Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church in very moving. I am quite sure that the magnanimity of particular. The majority of Christians in our world which the noble Lord speaks is not only there, but belong to one or other of those churches. I worked in comes from the heart of those who feel that today will the ecumenical field as a lay man, and I always longed see a long wrong righted while understanding that that for the day when there would be a unity among the is not a universal view. catholic churches, of which the Anglican Church is There has been some jumping round the centuries one. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, was since we started this debate, and I am minded of the right when he said that what we are doing this evening—I joke when I was a bursar of a Cambridge college. At a shall certainly not oppose it—will not exactly accelerate bursars’ meeting there was an argument about the ecumenism. Let us not put it any more strongly than applicability of VAT on chapel repairs—it is the sort that. of thing you get used to at Cambridge bursars’committees. After 20 minutes of debate, the bursar of St John’s 6.15 pm turned to the bursar of a 17th-century college and It is therefore very important indeed that those of said, in an exasperated tone, “You post-Reformation us within the Anglican Church who believe, perhaps colleges just don’t understand our problems”. mistakenly—maybe I am wrong; I will always make I am reminded of the research by my noble friend that point—but sincerely, in traditional Anglican worship Lord Tyler on the very early days of the precursor to and doctrine are not driven out of the Church of your Lordships’ House, the council that King John England. That is why I welcome the generosity of tone founded. Although there is no evidence of women of the most reverend Primate’s speech. I welcome the attending the council, there were women on the council safeguards in the Measure before us this evening. because there were abbesses who were wealthy enough I had the privilege, not always easy, of serving for to be taxed, which is of course why King John wanted 10 years on the General Synod of the Church of them there. So as and when there are women Bishops England. Had I been present in November 2012, I in this House we need to remind them that, while they would probably have sided with the minority who may be the first to actually sit on the Bench, they will prevented this going through because the requisite not be the first to have actually been appointed to the percentage was not reached in the House of Laity. I Bench. can say with all certainty that had I been present in Nearly half a century ago at my girls’ school, York this year I would have approved of the Measure growing in faith, a group of us used to chat after our before us this evening. There has been a real attempt confirmation course and tea and biscuits about what to understand the sincerely held peculiarities of those we wanted to do in the future. We did not call it of us who call ourselves traditional Anglicans. women’s ministry, but we talked about it in those days. I am passionately devoted to the Church of England. We all felt very clearly that God was calling us to do I have had the honour of being churchwarden in three something yet we did not know what it would be. We different churches for, collectively, something like 35 years knew it was not just going to be the wife of the vicar, and consider it an immense privilege to live in Minster or a Sunday school teacher, although I have certainly Yard in Lincoln and to be able to go to that glorious been the latter. One of my school friends from those cathedral every Sunday. I do not wish to be driven out, days was the first woman ordained on 12 March 1994. nor do I wish the significant minority who share my She will always say it is because her surname began views, prejudices—we all have both—and misgivings with a “B”, but the truth is she was in that first to be driven out either. If this Measure is passed, as I group. Another close friend of mine was the reverend hope it will be this evening, we will not be driven out. mother of an Anglican order. Both demonstrate that There has to be generosity on both sides. The victorious long before we moved to a position where we have have to show magnanimity and the minority has to bishops in the Church of England, even within my show that what has been approved is indeed the will of own shortish lifetime women’s ministry has been extremely the majority within our church. important. 177 Bishops and Priests Measure[14 OCTOBER 2014] Bishops and Priests Measure 178

When I was a Sunday school teacher 20 years ago, England’s place within the wider ecumenical movement, just as the debate was raging about the ordination of it is none the less different from other churches because women, I asked my Sunday school class how they felt it is an established church. It is part of the polity, and about it. Even then, they did not understand what the the politics, of this country in a most unusual way. I issue was, and the girls in particular all saw that the hesitate to call it unique, because I cannot altogether women deacons in our church and those women who authenticate that, but it is certainly most unusual. had special ministries were part of God’s plan for us That is why all of us, not just the members of the here. Now they are adults, they are also fulfilling their church, have an interest in this Measure, and all of us, own role in whatever way God sends them and it was even respecting the theological differences which make wonderful to hear that a third of our vicars are now it difficult for some people to accept this, should none women. For those of us who are politicians and cheeky the less see this as a very good day for the church and enough to comment about today as being a great day, for the country. when we look at the number of women MPs just at the other end of the corridor we perhaps ought to be The Lord Bishop of Rochester: My Lords, I stand here mindful that we also have some way to go. as one who has had the privilege—at least it felt like I sat in the public gallery of Synod at Church that most of the time—of chairing the General Synod’s House on 20 November 2012 and I also attended the steering committee, which brought this last piece of very helpful bishops’ meeting the following day for legislation to fruition. In that regard, I put on the record Peers and MPs. It is evident that the long consideration during this debate in your Lordships’ House appreciation and careful love in the views of the House of Bishops —some of which has already been expressed—for the and the House of Clergy in working with those for contributions and hard work of so many who have whom this has been theologically difficult has moved brought us to this point, where I think most of us are us to a different place. Justifiably there remain concerns pleased to be. yet, as a humble member of the Church of England, I Reference has been made to patience, which the feel quite clearly that in five or 10 years’ time we will noble Baroness, Lady Perry, mentioned, and which have all forgotten what the deep issues were because has been shown by many, as well as understandable we will have moved into a new era and be tolerant and frustration and all sorts of other things, too. We need understanding as our Lord would want us to be. to place on record our thanks to those who have continued —yes—with patience, but also with some sharpness at Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, I times to persuade, to lobby and to keep this issue at should like to speak briefly, first as a member of the the forefront of our minds, our attention and our Ecclesiastical Committee—which I count a great action over recent years. I also put on record appreciation privilege—and secondly as, in some way, a representative —which does not get done too often—of those who of the many, many people in this country who are not have been our advisers on the national staff of the members of the Church of England, or indeed of any Archbishops’ Council, who have been tireless in their church, but who are none the less, in some curious efforts to enable us to find the legislative and other way, deeply attached to the Church of England. We ways to come to where we are today. are people who have grown up in a world in which the I also put on record appreciation for those who ministry of the Church of England has been very have continued to have their misgivings and reservations important to the social and, indeed, the political fabric about the rightness of making this move, not least of this country. Those of us who are in that place have because many of them, as is witnessed by the vote in watched the progress of this issue about women bishops General Synod so recently, have brought themselves to over the past few years initially with considerable the point of recognising that this is the way in which dismay and latterly with—yes—joy. Even for those the church as a whole must go forward, and either like me, for whom the theological issues are not the voted in favour or declined to vote against when it main matter in dispute, there was a question of the came to the final vote. Many of those people, not least role and the importance of the church in wider society. those who are traditional Catholics, have contributed The fact that it stood out against the consecration of generously and valuably to the process and the outcome women for so long undermined some of its credibility that we have reached at this point. in the communities in which it was ministering. I live in, and am a trustee of the church in, a parish 6.30 pm which, I am very sorry to say, still holds out against women The Church of England is a strange sort of animal priests. Therefore, I do not think that at least some of and it is part of our DNA to want to include a range the people with whom I spend some of my time in that of viewpoints. That is why we have resisted approaches parish will be all that pleased to see this Measure go that might have “unchurched” people and have wanted through. However, as I said, there are many people in to find a way in which we could continue to hold this country who are not members of the church but together difference within our unity, as the most reverend who are very glad that it is there, both at the parochial Primate said in his introductory remarks. This Measure level and more widely, and for whom this is a good and its accompanying instruments and documents moment. We should record our gratitude to the most seek to give expression to that in various ways. Thus it reverend Primate for leading this last bit of process, is acknowledged, not least in the five guiding principles which has resulted in this Measure coming forward. in the House of Bishops declaration, that we live Finally, we should just remember that, although I within a wider Christian world where this development fully understand and respect the points made by the is not accepted by all and that we have committed noble Lord, Lord Cormack, about the Church of ourselves to maintain a place without limit of time for 179 Bishops and Priests Measure[LORDS] Bishops and Priests Measure 180

[THE LORD BISHOP OF ROCHESTER] church, of the nation and, as has been said, of this those who are of the traditionalist viewpoint. These House through the gifts and contributions of those commitments are important because they take us to women who will be consecrated as Bishops. the core of what the Church of England is about and I will end with a personal anecdote. More years how it sees itself within our national life. ago than I would care to mention, when I was an The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, raised a number undergraduate, another person was a contemporary of issues, some of which have been hotly discussed at of mine. That person is also now ordained and in various points. To save the most reverend Primate a senior position in the church; she happens to be a having to respond to all the issues that have been woman. I have been conscious that our lives and raised in your Lordships’ debate, I will touch on only vocations have, in many senses, gone in parallel over 30— one or two of them. There was the question of how a gosh, 40—years and yet, until now, it has been possible PCC might ask for a non-discriminating bishop if, for me to be made a bishop and not her. That difference presumably, the diocesan bishop was of the traditionalist will now no longer apply. For that reason, I am delighted persuasion. I cannot quote chapter and verse but it is that we have reached this stage of debate in your stated in the House of Bishops declaration that it is Lordships’ House this evening. expected that there would be no diocese in which there would not be a bishop who would ordain women. Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, I That is part of the intention set out in the House of happen to be a Presbyterian and am associated with a Bishops declaration. This therefore means that within church that is established in a different way north of any diocese there would be access to a bishop who the border but still in the United Kingdom. I want to supports the ordained ministry of women. emphasise, as strongly as I can, that we are dealing here with a decision by the Church of England. The The noble Baroness also referred to so-called headship Measure has been decided on by the Church of England bishops and raised precisely the issues that are being and the role of Members of this House is to approve it looked at in drawing up the specification and job so that it becomes part of the law of England. I description, as it were, of a person who might be particularly want to emphasise that it was for the appointed to such a post. She expressed the hope that Church of England to decide this, not Parliament. such a bishop would minister only to those who are of The Church of England has now decided it and it is a like mind, as it were—that is, those parishes that had for Parliament simply to approve it so that it becomes specifically asked for such a person’s ministry—and part of the law of England. referred to flying bishops. Sometimes flying bishops minister to people beyond the group of those who Lord Tyler (LD): My Lords, I want to contribute have specifically asked for their ministry, so that model briefly this evening because I was very moved by what provides for something that goes a little wider. Our my noble friend Lord Cormack said earlier. I should view is that it is important that a person appointed to say, by way of background, that I come from a long the headship bishop role—to use the shorthand term—is line of Anglican priests. Indeed, I am the black sheep acceptable to the people who requested that kind of of the family, having fallen into politics, which is ministry but, at the end of the day, a bishop is a bishop regarded by the rest of the family as being disastrous is a bishop within the church of God and it might be in that respect. My grandfather, a Cornish parson, was good if that person was somehow tied into what we so horrified by the way in which Parliament treated might call the mainstream ministry of bishops in some the 1928 prayer book that he became convinced it was way and therefore prevented from becoming overly necessary to disestablish the Church of England. I sectarian. However, those issues are still being discussed follow in that respect, too. and the issues to which the noble Baroness alluded are I want to express my appreciation of what my noble very much in people’s minds. friend Lord Cormack said earlier because his generosity Many Members of your Lordships’ House who should, I hope, be shared by others who may be have spoken have given a very positive welcome to disappointed, or even dismayed, by the way in which this Measure and its accompanying documents and this Measure has come forward. I rejoice in the way it declaration. We have been rightly reminded by the has come forward. I recollect very well a service in noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, that we are not as Truro Cathedral, on a bright, beautiful Cornish day innovative as we might think. If we look at the history nearly 20 years ago, when the then bishop, who had of the abbesses of old, we find striking examples of voted in the Synod against the Measure for the ordination women who adopted leadership roles long before they of women, preached eloquently to us, expressing the gained those roles in most other walks of life. most moving reason for changing his mind. He recollected This is clearly a development that most within the that in the New Testament, in the Acts of the Apostles, church, and many beyond it, welcome. In that regard, the Almighty had given guidance to those who were the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, voting on a decision to replace one of the apostles. He was much appreciated. However, we believe that the said, “What is good enough for the Apostles is good welcome can be more richly given precisely because we enough for me”. As part of that very moving ceremony, are giving attention to those who are, for various when he presented the seven candidates with a bible, reasons, more reserved in their position on this change. he also presented them with a bunch of sweet peas, It is a change that we wish to see and, as has been said, which he had picked from his garden that morning. It it has had clear support in all the dioceses. Many of was a very moving moment when he, who had been our friends in this House, in the Commons and in relatively opposed to the ordination of women, said society more widely are positively welcoming it. We that he accepted the outcome of that vote. I hope that look forward to the enrichment of the life of our those who may now be concerned, apprehensive, worried 181 Bishops and Priests Measure[14 OCTOBER 2014] Bishops and Priests Measure 182 or even dismayed will not only listen to my noble place said, “That is all very well, but the same people friend in the way in which he has accepted the outcome will be in Synod until the next election, so how can of this process but may also remember the words of anything possibly change?”. I shall paraphrase what that very distinguished Bishop of Truro. the most reverend Primate said, but he said, “I do not know, but I have worked in situations where very Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB): My Lords, perhaps unlikely people have been reconciled and I believe in a I may add a word from someone who was brought up God who is capable of doing miracles”. He may have in the Catholic Church and to whom, therefore, the had a point. ordination of women was very foreign. However, one I pay tribute to the most reverend Primate for the word sums up much of what I have heard, particularly commitment that he has brought to this process, the from the noble Lords, Lord Cormack and Lord Tyler, urgency that he has taken and the care and love that he and that word is love. Recently, my wife was buried by has lavished on it. Working with the right reverend a lady vicar, who also christened our grandchild. In Prelate the Bishop of Rochester and all members of the course of that, I came to realise that the semantics the steering group of the General Synod from a range are not important; what is important is the degree of of persuasions has enabled him to help Synod come to love. This lady bestowed a quite extraordinary gift on the place where it felt able to support the Measure me, and I feel that we have come to a stage in our before us today. history where this is not only acceptable and desirable but extremely important. I have seen myself do a complete volte-face over the last decade, to a point 6.45 pm where I enormously welcome women bishops, and I Many benefits will flow from this Measure. It has know that people such as the noble Lords, Lord been said by some noble Lords and by many outside Cormack and Lord Tyler, will do so as well. It is Parliament that the real advantage is that it brings the correct that we should also show great love to those church into line with society. Certainly, many people who find this difficult. Having seen both perspectives, looking at the church, such as my noble friend Lady I can see that “love” may sound corny but it is in fact McIntosh, have seen that it feels very different; it is the answer. somehow alien to see the church not looking like the community it represented. All of that is true. We have Baroness Sherlock (Lab): My Lords, I thank the had some wonderful examples from the noble Baronesses, most reverend Primate for his introduction to this Lady Berridge and Lady Brinton, of the women who Measure and all noble Lords who have contributed to have gone before us in bringing the church out into this historic and extraordinary debate. I, too, thank many communities. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for the graciousness Knighton, has shown that, very often, just as love is of being willing to stand up and explicitly commend known by its fruits, so have the benefits of the ministry this Measure to the House, given the pain that it of women in the church in the end come to be accepted clearly has caused him. I also thank the noble and because people have come to know it by its fruits. I learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for having have no doubt that that will happen with women in the shared with us the context and the excellent report episcopate as well. from the committee under his chairmanship. I thank Although it will be wonderful for lay people such as all committee members who contributed. me to see women at all levels in the church—and I I probably should declare an interest, in that I, too, think it is a great idea—the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, am an active member of the Church of England. The is right that this is not in the end about gender nearest that I have come to high office is that I was discrimination. It is not about society’s view on equality; briefly the secretary of my PCC. The downside of the church has made its decision for its own reasons. It being brought into your Lordships’ House was that, got there for theological and ecclesial reasons and it tragically, I was unable to be present in Durham on has decided that this was the right thing to do. I am the evening that the PCC met and was forced to confident that it is right. There are so many wonderful relinquish that role—I can tell noble Lords now that female clergy who will make fantastic female bishops they will never get me back to do it again. None the and the church will be enriched and blessed by their less, because of that, it is an enormous privilege for me ministry. That is the reason for doing it. to be even a small part of this debate. I am so pleased I also think that the way we have got here, difficult to be able to do it. though the last two years have been, has enabled the Of course it was so different in November 2012, Church of England to show some lessons to the rest of when the last attempt to resolve this issue was rejected us. First, I think that the strength of reaction from so by Synod. I was among those who were dismayed by many quarters has shown that a great many people, the result as well as slightly baffled. As the most such as my noble friend Lady McIntosh, who are not reverend Primate pointed out, for any Chief Whip in themselves churchgoers, actually have a large stake in this House a 64% majority would be a result, and we the Church of England and care about it. It matters. did not think that he could have done much better. At In a sense, it is their church—legally, they are entitled a meeting with a bunch of parliamentarians from both to be married, to be buried and to have their children Houses attended by the most reverend Primate the baptised there—but it is also much more than that. In Archbishop, people were concerned. He explained a visceral and emotional sense, it feels like their church. that he would address the matter with urgency. People They therefore have a legitimate interest in what happens were very impressed—as were, I am sure, other noble and we, as Parliament, for constitutional reasons also Lords who were there—but a Member of another have a legitimate interest in what the church does. 183 Bishops and Priests Measure[LORDS] Bishops and Priests Measure 184

[BARONESS SHERLOCK] where women and men can serve together as deacons, The process by which we got here has brought other priests and finally bishops, where local people in our benefits, as the most reverend Primate mentioned in established church can enjoy the ministry of all of his introduction. After the vote, he went on “Newsnight”, those who are called and ordained to join the episcopate, and said, “The biggest change in the last 20 months and where our communities and, in time, our own has been the way we treat each other and the way we House can enjoy the unique contribution that women are learning to treat people we disagree with”. I wonder can make to the leadership of this church. For me, as whether that process of reconciliation has something for so many of us, that day cannot come too soon. important to say to those of us in the political world about the way we go about handling good disagreement, Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, on behalf of about how to deal with very strong, differing views the Government, I, too, welcome the recent vote by without ripping ourselves apart and about how to the General Synod of the Church of England to allow build consensus in the absence of unanimity. We have the consecration and ordination of women bishops. I only to think about constitutional debates in our own, welcome the most reverend Primate’s presentation tonight very recent political history to wonder what it is we of the relevant measure to enable this, and the thoughtful can take from that experience and how the political debate that we have had. The most reverend Primate world can learn from it. I also recognise that the rightly described this as a historic change and it is process of reaching consensus has, as the Archbishop surely right that the church at every level should truly described, meant that there have been compromises to reflect the men and women in the populations it seeks be made on all sides. to serve. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, I Some very important questions were raised by the also pay tribute to those who have put their points of noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, and others, view in such measured terms. We heard moving speeches which have begun to be addressed and which the by my noble friends Lady Perry and Lady Brinton, Archbishop will come back to, but I should like to flag and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, as up one which she mentioned in passing. The noble well as from others, on the deep significance of this Baroness, Lady Perry, has described the pain of so change. I also note the tone of reconciliation that has many women over the years. Recently I was talking to been expressed. a very close friend of mine who knew from the age On the subject of our House, I confirm that we are of 21 that she was called to be a priest; but she could keen participants in the discussions mentioned by the not. What do you do with that? What do you do with a most reverend Primate on the options that might be clarity of vocation that is so strong when you cannot available to ensure that we do not have to wait too do anything with it? So she lived with that until the long before we see women bishops in the House of day when women could be ordained, and she was Lords. I noted the way that the most reverend Primate ordained. She is now a woman older than I am—and glanced back at his colleagues. From the Government obviously, therefore, in the prime of life. It is none of I can confirm that although we are looking at all sorts my business but, interfering briefly for a moment, I of options, capital punishment is not among them, just wanted to ask that those who will make decisions and nor is getting rid of turbulent priests. It is to be in the future about women being called into the episcopate hoped that they have nothing to fear. should think about women with that level of experience This is indeed a historic day. As a former historian, and whether they might be usefully represented in the I feel privileged and delighted to be able to answer early stages of the episcopate. from the Government that we welcome this move by I say that for two reasons. One is because it would the General Synod of the Church of England and that be a shame, even if they have only a few years left to we support the measure before your Lordships tonight. serve, to lose the opportunity of that wisdom and experience. The other is because I think there is something The Archbishop of Canterbury: My Lords, I begin quite powerful and inclusive about taking that pain by thanking your Lordships for the interventions that into the very heart of the episcopate when the church have been made. As has already been said, they have begins to do this. As I said, it is none of my business been moving, testing and interesting. I am particularly but why should I allow that to stop me talking about grateful that the tone of the debate has followed that it? I commend that thought to the Bishops’ Benches. of the General Synod, which was one of peaceful and Finally, what is more my business is that there is, thoughtful reflection rather than the much tougher of course, a widespread interest in seeing a female and harder-edged debates of the past, which some of bishop join the Bishops’ Benches as soon as possible. I my right reverend colleagues will remember better was delighted to hear the Archbishop talk about the than me, and from which they still bear the scars. possibilities that might be there. I know it is never I cannot comment on everything that has been said straightforward, and changing the composition of either by everyone or we would be here much too long, but I House of Parliament is not a straightforward matter, will pick up a few of the points that were made, as we shall find only too soon. I look forward to particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, and hearing some more about that in due course. answer the two questions that she asked that have not Just before the Measure was voted on at Synod, a already been answered by the right reverend Prelate speaker called on the General Synod to express a spirit the Bishop of Rochester. First, on behalf of the church of unity and subsequent willingness and mutual and particularly the Lords Spiritual, I thank the noble adaptation. “In that way”, he declared, “you create a and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for his whole new world of possibilities”. We now stand on chairmanship of the Ecclesiastical Committee over an the verge of this new world of possibilities, a world extended period and for the way in which he most 185 Bishops and Priests Measure[14 OCTOBER 2014] Bishops and Priests Measure 186 helpfully enabled the committee to meet quickly after keeps us all on our toes. I will say two things before the General Synod vote. That is why, if the measure is answering her question. She spoke about the issue—as approved by the House this evening and the other did the noble Baronesses, Lady Perry and Lady Sherlock place next week, I believe, we will be able to proceed at —of what people had gone through for many years. the General Synod in November and have the whole They asked whether they were just forgotten. We have thing, as they say, done and dusted. The noble and just appointed a Bishop of Hereford, aged 64, six learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has worked very hard on years before obligatory retirement, and I see absolutely this and we appreciate it very much indeed. I shall give no reason—I feel passionate about this—why we should the figures that he picked up on. Of our roughly not draw on the experience of those who have spent 15,000 to 16,000 parishes, fewer than 1,000 have passed many years in non-episcopal ministries. It is essential what they call resolutions to restrict the ministry of to improving the quality of bishops. As we deepen the women priests: so it is not a huge proportion. pool, we do so in terms of gender but also in terms of The noble Baroness, Lady Berridge, spoke eloquently looking very openly at those who have the greater about the quality of bishops—or, in her implication, experience. the absence of quality in bishops for some time, perhaps I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, as a result of the shallow pool from which they are for mentioning that WATCH—Women and the Church drawn. I am very sorry about my education but I could —accepts the declaration of the House of Bishops. It not do much about it at the time. All I can say is that is an important declaration which sets out five principles the pool is being improved. of non-discrimination, acceptance of diversity and recognition of difference across the universal and Catholic The noble Lord, Lord Green, chaired a committee Church which is enormously important. which completely reviewed the way in which those who are seen as potential bishops are developed and 7pm selected. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ely, who is in his place this evening, is in charge of that The noble Baroness asked what would happen at process, among many other things, and is advancing it consecrations and whether we can commit to archbishops, quickly. I hope that we will see that improvement as has been traditional, where possible playing a role which was spoken about. Issues of selection on the as chief consecrator. It has always been in the power basis of social background were also raised. Having of archbishops to delegate to another bishop the sat on seven selection processes so far, I have never yet normal role of chief consecrator, which has happened heard the subject mentioned or hinted at in any way quite regularly when an archbishop is unwell or absent whatever, so I can reassure the House on that. Being for another reason. Whether an archbishop would single or married is not relevant. Six of our 40 dioceses choose to do so in a particular case will as a matter of are led by single men, and I have no hesitation in law remain for the archbishop to decide. agreeing with the noble Baroness about the exciting The present archbishops—I have discussed this at potential of the next generation of bishops, both men great length with the most reverend Primate the and women. Archbishop of York—cannot bind their successors, and we are very careful about that, but the five guiding The noble Lord, Lord Griffiths, with his normal principles of the House of Bishops provide a framework sense of humour, implied quite rightly that we will be which should make it possible for arrangements to following the Methodist example. I have confessed to develop which are generally accepted and part of the him in person—but I may as well do so to the House way in which the Church of England continues to for absolution—that it was one of my ancestors who manage diversity. At paragraph 30 of the House of chucked Wesley out: we all have our ancestors. The Bishops declaration is a commitment to continuing noble Baroness, Lady Perry, spoke eloquently about the supply of traditionalist Catholic bishops and headship the pain undergone by many extraordinarily talented evangelical bishops which can work only if there is a women and the patience that they have shown over the supply of such bishops, so we have to work within the years. I echo that strongly and wish to speak of the traditions that exist. I shall come back to that in a change of mood in the church over the last few years. concluding comment. In particular, I pay tribute to the right reverend I believe that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop Prelate the Bishop of Rochester, who brushed over his of Rochester answered on how a PCC deals with the extraordinary leadership of the steering group which process, and he dealt also with where a headship took this measure through. This might be something evangelical bishop would minister. I want to say for for your Lordships’ House: at one point in the General the record that I agree entirely with every comment of Synod we abandoned completely our imitation of the right reverend Prelate. He muttered, “Good”. I am Parliament and met together in smaller groups with their leader so I do what they say. mediators—a remarkably skilled group of mediators Clause 2, referring to the Equality Act, is not led by one of the staff at Lambeth. I think it is fair to designed to facilitate discrimination in relation to any say that that was a turning point in which we learnt to protected characteristic. It was put in place in particular listen to each other for the first time—and to love each with this characteristic in mind, but there would have other, as the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, remarked. been no logic in providing that episcopal posts were I turn to the very helpful speech by the noble public offices for one equality but not for another—you Baroness, Lady Howe, and I pay tribute to her as the would simply get in a muddle. The assurance that I deputy chair of the Equal Opportunities Commission can give is that already a large number of clergy posts when it began in 1976. She has considerable experience in the Church of England are not within the terms of in this area and an eagle eye for bad practice, which the Equality Act. As a matter of policy, the House of 187 Bishops and Priests Measure[LORDS] Bishops and Priests Measure 188

[THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY] General Synod has taken the decision, we do not Bishops has advised that those in parochial appointments believe that this House is a rubber stamp. Therefore, should act as though the Act applied. This change is although I accept that it would be normal to accept not a cloak for discrimination on sexuality, marital the Measure, we take very seriously the presentation status, marital history or, for that matter, age. I hope to your Lordships’ House and to the other place. that that to some degree answers the noble Baroness’s The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, spoke again on generosity. question. He spoke of the guidance to the apostles as to how I was particularly grateful for the comments of the they conducted elections. I might remind him that noble Lord, Lord Cormack. One of the most moving they ended up choosing the shortlist by lot and I need parts of this process has been listening to those who to reassure noble Lords that we are not going to do have been willing to go along with something that they that. I have been in your Lordships’ House for a very feel passionately and deeply is not the right thing for short time, but long enough to see an elephant trap the church to do. I am grateful for the graciousness when there is one in front of me; I am not going to with which the noble Lord spoke. I say again that the comment on the matter of disestablishment. Church of England is deeply committed to the flourishing I am nearing my conclusion, but I would like to of all those who are part of its life in the grace of God. refer to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, It is not our intention that any particular group should and, as many other Members of this House have done, wither on the vine. The noble Lord spoke about generosity send him my condolences on his wife’s death so suddenly from traditionalists towards those who are changing and so early. I remind the House that my noble kinsman the understanding of how the church works—and let Lord Williams of Elvel—my stepfather—and my mother us be clear that it is the change. That generosity is commissioned from the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, a intended to be reciprocated. piece taken from the first words of the Rule of St Benedict, The noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, also made a which begins, “Listen, my child”. It was sung in very generous speech, which was referred to by the Canterbury Cathedral at the service of my installation noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. She spoke very movingly, as Archbishop of Canterbury.Its impact was remarkable. particularly about the importance of women’s ministry In the word “listen” we find the way in which the over the centuries. It was a notable Spanish woman church has got to where it has. We have listened to saint in the 12th century who gave me one of my what the country said after November 2012; we have favourite comments. After a particularly bad journey listened with great care to each other; and we have back to her home, she arrived to find a river in flood listened in love. It is in that love that this Measure has and could not get home. She looked up at heaven and gone through the Synod—not universally, but almost. said to God, “If this is how you treat your friends, I’m That brings me, finally, to thank the noble Baronesses, not surprised you have so few of them”. Lady Sherlock and Lady Northover, for their very I have thanked the right reverend Prelate the Bishop kind words. I observed the whole process, rather than of Rochester and echo as well his thanks for those who led it, as a sort of decorative add-on. It is the steering have been in favour, including those in WATCH—who group that really worked hard on it—a group comprised have kept us and pushed us over so many years, with a of every shade of opinion, from those strongly against certain sharpness from time to time that we have of the Measure to those strongly in favour. course appreciated—and those who have been against. With that hope that we will have a deeper and wider I have referred to that. pool of bishops—and, as soon as possible, on these Benches—I commend the Measure to the House. It is always wonderful to hear the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay: one waits for something weighty Motion agreed. to come from him, as it always does. I would, with great temerity, slightly differ and say that although the House adjourned at 7.10 pm. GC 31 Arrangement of Business[14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 32 Grand Committee which will leave, “a considerable gap between production of North Sea gas and our total demand”. Tuesday, 14 October 2014. It argues that this demand, “can either be met through imports or UK production of shale Arrangement of Business gas”, Announcement and concludes that, “if anything, using well-regulated UK shale gas to fill this gap 3.31 pm could lead to lower overall lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Gibson than continuing to import LNG. It would also increase the proportion of energy produced within the UK, improving our of Market Rasen) (Lab): My Lords, I have to inform energy sovereignty”. you that if there is a Division in the Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will adjourn for 10 minutes. So the benefit to the UK of using home-grown shale gas is clear. It can displace a proportion of gas and oil imports. We have to face it: North Sea gas Infrastructure Bill [HL] production is falling and we are becoming increasingly Committee (7th Day) reliant on gas imports. Domestic shale gas could increase our energy security by cutting those imports. It can Relevant documents: 2nd, 3rd and 8th Reports benefit the UK in terms of jobs, tax revenues and from the Delegated Powers Committee growth, mitigating some of the falling revenues from the North Sea. Ernst & Young’s recent supply chain Amendment 95ZBC report found that industry could support around 64,000 Moved by Baroness Verma direct and induced jobs. It can support the UK’s transition to a low-carbon economy by helping balance 95ZBC: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— the intermittent supply of renewable energy. “Petroleum and geothermal energy: right to use deep-level land The Government therefore support the development (1) A person has the right to use deep-level land in any way for of shale gas and oil. However, it has become clear that the purposes of exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal energy. difficulties in obtaining underground access pose a (2) Land is subject to the right of use (whether for the barrier to exploring this new industry. The same problem purposes of exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal energy) also applies to the deep geothermal industry, which is only if it is— likewise at an early stage of development in the UK. (a) deep-level land, and There is growing interest in the role that geothermal (b) within a landward area. district heating networks could play as part of the (3) But that does not prevent deep-level land that is within a transition to low-carbon heating. landward area from being used for the purposes of exploiting Currently, petroleum and deep geothermal energy petroleum or deep geothermal energy outside a landward area. companies must attempt to negotiate an access agreement (4) Deep-level land is any land at a depth of at least 300 metres below surface level. with each landowner through whose land activities pass, no matter how deep the works. For new lateral (5) This section confers the right to use Scottish deep-level land for the purposes of exploiting deep geothermal energy only drilling methods which can cover much larger areas in cases where the sole, or main, use of that energy is to be, or is, underground, existing means of obtaining underground the generation of electricity.” access can be disproportionately costly and time- consuming in relation to the potential benefits. Where The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department a single landowner, or a group of landowners, refuses of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma): My access, this can create significant delay and in the case Lords, in the UK, gas provides around three-quarters of geothermal is likely to stop the project entirely. This of our heating needs and a third of our electricity. is despite the fact that allowing underground access at However, North Sea gas is declining. By 2025 we expect depths below 300 metres is unlikely to affect the to be importing close to 70% of the gas we consume. landowners’ use of their land. Natural gas from shale could play a crucial role in These amendments therefore seek to simplify the supporting UK energy security, building on our 50-year current process by granting use of land below 300 metres history of onshore oil and gas exploitation. I ask noble in order to access petroleum and geothermal resources. Lords to bear that in mind when weighing up the Let me be crystal clear: we are not proposing any amendments we lay before the House today. I know changes to surface access or to the regulatory system some will, rightly, raise concerns about the impact of that deals with the potential risks associated with shale gas development on our climate goals. I see shale drilling and hydraulic fracturing. These regimes will as a part of the transition to a low-carbon economy. remain the same. The Government have been clear Shale gas has a role to play in this. The carbon that shale development must be safe and environmentally footprint of UK-produced shale gas would likely be sound. A company looking to develop shale or geothermal significantly less than coal and also lower than imported would still need to obtain all the necessary permissions, liquefied natural gas. As the Committee on Climate such as planning and environmental permits. In addition, Change said last year, for flexible power supply and the onshore oil and gas industry has committed to for heating and industrial use, the UK will, engage with communities early at each stage of operations, “continue to use considerable, albeit declining, amounts of gas as well as consulting through the planning application well into the 2030s”, process. I reassure noble Lords that there are robust GC 33 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 34

[BARONESS VERMA] whose land the right is exercised or other persons as regulations in place to ensure on-site safety, prevent defined by the regulation in return for the right of use. water contamination, mitigate seismic activity and The regulation may also introduce a requirement for minimise air emissions, and the Government are not companies to provide specified information on these proposing to change them. payments. The provisions are included only as a reserve The government amendment before the Committee power because both industries have made voluntary follows a 12-week public consultation on our proposals. commitments to make a one-off payment of £20,000 The consultation attracted a large number of responses to affected communities for each unique lateral well and provided an opportunity for the public to voice that extends by more than 200 metres. The key advantage their concerns. The majority of respondents included of such a voluntary approach is to enable flexibility on campaign text opposing hydraulic fracturing or the the detailed arrangements. Different sites may require proposed change to underground access legislation different arrangements depending on their characteristics. but did not specifically address the questions to the However, in case these voluntary payment schemes are consultation. Surveys have shown higher public support. not honoured, this clause will ensure that the Secretary For instance, a recent University of Nottingham survey of State can through regulation render them mandatory. shows that among people who are aware of shale gas, Any such regulation will be subject to prior consultation. support is more than 50% and more people support its The fourth new clause provides for a similar delegated extraction than oppose it. Support for the consultation power for a notice scheme. As with the payment proposals among stakeholder organisations that provided scheme, the details of a statutory notification scheme detailed responses on specific issues was considerably would be set out in regulations following consultation. higher than the individual responses. Stakeholder For now, both industries have committed to notifying responses from the petroleum and geothermal industry communities of works taking place at depth, outlining unanimously supported the legislation, as did wider the area of underground land accessed and the payment industry, such as manufacturing, the steel industry to be made. At this very early stage in the development and engineering associations. There were diverse views of the shale gas, shale oil, and deep geothermal industries, among local authorities and land and farmers’ the typical characteristics of a site and the typical associations, with a majority of local authorities and timeframe for development are unknown. We cannot consultancies in favour of the proposal. Most public with certainty foresee the way in which industries’ institutions and law societies remained neutral to the activities will develop in different areas across the UK. proposal, often agreeing with the proposal’s rationale, A voluntary notification scheme is flexible so it can be but raising specific issues. Environmental groups and adapted as the industries develop. The reserve power various civil society organisations opposed legislation. to create a statutory notification scheme would be Having carefully considered the various issues raised applied only in case the voluntary approach proves within the consultation responses and whether any not to be satisfactory. compelling new arguments had been presented, we The new fifth clause contains supplementary provisions firmly believe that the proposed policy is the right concerning the powers to introduce payment and notice approach. The full government response has been schemes. The clause contains provisions for the published on our consultation website. enforcement of statutory payment and notice schemes, I will now outline our proposals, as set out in these including financial penalties for companies that breach clauses. The first new clause seeks to introduce a right the requirements. It also permits statutory schemes to to use land at least 300 metres below the surface for confer functions on certain people, including the Secretary the purpose of exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal of State, such as a duty, or a requirement to consult. A energy. The right is limited to these purposes. For deep sunsetting provision is included, which provides that geothermal energy, the right to use Scottish deep-level the Secretary of State must review the payment and land is limited to cases where the sole, or main, use of notice scheme provisions after five years and repeal that energy is the generation of electricity. the relevant sections if a power is not exercised within The second new clause provides details on the seven years and if the Secretary of State is satisfied scope of the right of use, and further clarifies the types there is no convincing case for retaining it. The Delegated of ways in which the right may be exercised and the Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has sorts of purposes for which it may be exercised. This recommended that regulations made by the Secretary clause includes references to passing substances through of State to repeal these provisions be subject to the or into land at depth and includes leaving substances affirmative resolution procedure, and we will be looking in that land. This applies only in relation to the use of to table an amendment to this clause before Report to the land for the purposes of exploiting petroleum or that effect. deep geothermal energy, so it would not, for example, The sixth clause contains the relevant definitions create any provision for nuclear waste. It does not and interpretations. Areas that are “onshore”are currently replace any of the existing regulatory regime, so an identified by the definition of “landward area” in operator will still require all the necessary permissions, regulations made under the Petroleum Act 1998. This like planning and environmental permits. Indeed, this clause includes a power to make changes to that clause also ensures that the provisions grant only a definition. right of use and nothing more, so companies will have Finally, the amendments seek to update Clauses 28 to comply with existing regulatory requirements. to 31 to reflect the inclusion of the new clauses on the The third new clause provides the Secretary of right of use, and set out matters such as when the new State with a delegated power to require companies, by clauses will come into force. We have also introduced regulation, to make payments to landowners under an amendment to update the title of the Bill. GC 35 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 36

3.45 pm of waters achieving “good”status under the directive—not It is important to note that the issue of underground a great story. Some of the most important ways in access we are proposing to address here will not make which to turn that around are about making sure that any changes to the existing regulatory regimes that those nationally and internationally important protected govern and manage the potential risks of petroleum, sites are the jewels in the crown of our ecosystem deep geothermal activity and hydraulic fracturing. The services, conservation and environment, and are properly proposals also provide wider engagement opportunities protected so that species, habitats and waterbody quality for individuals. It is also important to stress that the are maintained. right of use in these provisions will apply at depths so My amendment would require shale gas extraction far below the surface that the right will not have any not to be permitted within these special conservation impact on the landowner’s use of the land. For example, sites. I am sure that the Minister will say that the welcome the deepest point of the Channel Tunnel is 75 metres; reassurances we have just heard about the existing hydraulic fracturing will typically take place at a depth protection measures continuing should be sufficient: of 1,500 metres. At the same time, the rights of those there is a body of European and UK law that already affected by the development at the surface will not applies to all these sites. Alas, we see that being breached change. increasingly frequently. We are seeing the first signs of The clauses we have put forward in the Bill will help rise in damage to sites of special scientific interest us unlock exploration for shale gas and deep geothermal, since I thought we had put an end to that at the end of as we move towards a low-carbon economy. Our robust the 1980s. It is a heartbreaking turnaround. regulation will protect residents while allowing this The Committee will understand why I am concerned source of home-grown energy to develop in a way that about the impact of shale gas extraction. There is a is fair to communities. I beg to move. significant land take. The sites last for as long as 20 years. There are about 120 well pads per site. The Amendment 95ZBCA (to Amendment 95ZBC) impacts are well beyond the immediate site of entry into the substructure for extraction. There are issues Moved by Baroness Young of Old Scone such as water stress, and a recent AMEC report showed 95ZBCA:, Line 8, at end insert— that up to 25,000 cubic metres of water per well could “(c) outside— be required. That is not just about the abstraction of (i) Ramsar sites of international importance especially clean water, which already has many competing demands as waterfowl habitat; from human beings, wildlife and other uses, including (ii) World Heritage Sites; industrial use, but results in waste water that has to be disposed of. We certainly do not have the waste water (iii) Special Areas of Conservation as designated under European Council Directive 92/43/EEC; capacity to do that. There is water stress and water pollution. We have to be aware of the propensity to (iv) Special Protection Areas as classified under European Council Directive 2009/147/EC; spills. The fluids used for extraction can pick up toxins, heavy metals and radioactivity from existing (v) National Parks; substances in the substructure. (vi) Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty; Perhaps what I worry most about is habitat (vii) Sites of Special Scientific Interest; fragmentation and loss. We already know from our (viii) Nature Reserves; and experience in the construction of onshore wind and (ix) The Broads.” solar technologies that unless they are very carefully handled, we see fragmentation and loss of habitat on a Baroness Young of Old Scone (Non-Afl): My Lords, much wider scale than is absolutely necessary. I am by way of an aside, it is slightly surreal to be debating not knocking those important technologies, but they an amendment to an amendment on something that need careful management. Of course we need to be does not appear in the Bill. I should declare an interest aware that these sites create noise and activity such as as vice-president of the Royal Society for the Protection traffic access and we run the risk of disturbance of of Birds and president of the Wildlife Trust for some of the most important species. Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire and Northamptonshire. Some 15% of the land that is under consideration Biodiversity in our species and habitats is not in a for the next round of extraction coincides with special good way in this country. The State of Nature report protection areas, special areas of conservation under showed that 60% of species are in long-term decline; European legislation, Ramsar sites, which are important that is, 755 species in the UK are in danger of extinction. globally designated wetland sites, and SSSIs, which The 2011 UK National Ecosystem Assessment showed are the jewel in the crown of national protection sites. that 30% of ecosystem services—the services that we An example that is very close to my heart is that 85% as human beings get from the natural world and the of the global population of pink-footed geese winter environment—are in long-term decline. It is not, therefore, in the UK, yet two of the four main overwintering an issue about “tweety birds”, things that crawl and sites for pink-footed geese lie within the possible shale flowers but the very basic services on which human life gas extraction sites. We have to pay real attention to depends. those important areas. Potential licence areas also The water framework directive, that highly important cover some of our most sensitive river systems. All piece of European legislation, was responded to by the nine of the Chilton chalk streams suffer from low UK Government, who said that the percentage of waters flows as a result of overabstraction so further abstraction achieving “good”status by the end of 2015 would increase of water and the potential for water quality issues from 26% to 30%. Alas, we are now in decline, with 25% would be a real worry there. GC 37 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 38

[BARONESS YOUNG OF OLD SCONE] One thing I gained from the report, the Government’s The Government introduced additional planning response and the consultation is just how much more guidance advising that there should be no shale gas needs to be done by the industry and the Government extraction in national parks, the Broads, areas of to make the case for the development of shale gas. The outstanding natural beauty, natural beauty and world Government have made it perfectly clear—indeed, my heritage sites except in exceptional circumstances where noble friend repeated it this afternoon—that over the a public interest test could be shown. We welcome next 20 or 30 years gas is bound to play a significant that, but it is not enough. It is guidance rather than role in our energy supplies and how much better that having a legislative basis and does not cover sites of we should have indigenous sources rather than being biodiversity importance, and our nationally and increasingly subject to the vagaries of a flexible and internationally important wildlife sites. perhaps unpredictable international market. I welcome the amendments that we will debate I have discussed this with the trade association that shortly that other noble Lords have raised to introduce represents onshore gas developments. It entirely recognises stronger environmental regulation around shale gas the problem, but I was left a bit unclear about what it extraction and I appreciate that the Minister was keen is planning to do about it. It is something that has to to stress that the rights of owners of surface land and be done, and the Government certainly have to take a the protection of surface land remain. But additional lead on that. measures are needed, hence my amendment. Removing Geothermal energy is important in this context. these sensitive areas from the 14th licensing round When I started reading the paper, I was aware that I would reduce the total area being offered for licence did not know nearly as much about geothermal energy by just 12%. That is not a huge sacrifice in order to as I should. I know that my noble friend Lord Teverson ensure that our most important sites remain protected is very knowledgeable about it—he has geothermal in and that we do not see an increase in the threat to our his part of the country, Cornwall—but I was not, so I most globally important wildlife sites that we are asked a number of people to explain to me what already beginning to see from other pressures. I beg to the potential is, how it should be developed and what move. they were doing about it. I found that immensely interesting. Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con): I thank the Minister I do not propose to use this speech to deliver a for her powerful explanation of the case for developing lecture to noble Lords, but I will make three short shale gas. She also mentioned the fact that this legislation points. Geothermal energy promises to be part of the and, indeed, the whole consultation extended to future energy mix of the United Kingdom. It offers a geothermal energy. It is about that that I would like to supply of secure, low-carbon energy without the variability say a few words in support of the amendment which I of wind and wave. It is derived from heat radiating have tabled to the Government’s first new clause. from the centre of the earth and must not be confused I totally support the case for extending the right to with ground-source heat from solar warming. That is underground access. It is essential, and equally essential quite important: one is talking about sources of heat for both shale gas and geothermal energy. One of the that may be a kilometre, a kilometre and a half or even advantages of the recess was that the Government’s two kilometres deep. response to the consultation was published when we had a bit of time to look at it. I have read it from cover 4pm to cover. I have to say that it was not a particularly Secondly, a number of commercially successful systems interesting exercise. I admire very much the detailed already operate in the United Kingdom, including attention which was given to the public’s replies to the that in Southampton, which is now very well known. consultation, and I was not in the least bit surprised The British Geological Survey has located geothermal that the exercise was used by large numbers of people basins all over the United Kingdom. The opportunities not to address the main questions the consultation are therefore immense. I am told that less than 1% of was about. It evoked a torrent of opposition from the world’s potential supply of geothermal energy is organisations and people who have declared themselves currently being exploited, which leaves an enormous totally opposed to any form of shale gas development. opportunity for a steady, low-carbon source of energy One thing that rather amused me was the criticism to be used for the benefit of people. China is in fact the made by some of the people who put in a response largest producer of geothermal heat and the US is the about the inclusion of geothermal energy in the same largest producer of geothermal power. consultation, as if somehow the Government were The third point is that geothermal energy comes in spoiling their protest by adding something which they a wide variety of temperatures. Much of it is not hot probably supported. Conditions about underground enough to generate electricity and could be boosted access and the need for a simpler process, which I only at an unreasonable expense, which in most places totally support, apply equally well to both. That is is not regarded as worth while. However, it is a source made perfectly clear in the impact statement about of heat and it can be and is used for providing heat for geothermal activities, which says: a variety of sources—not just domestic heat, but “Operators wishing to extract geothermal energy have to industrial heat and so on. That is particularly true of negotiate with landowners for underground access. This is a time the substantial sedimentary basins at depths of one consuming, uncertain and potentially costly process. If a landowner and a half to even four kilometres, as in Cheshire, refuses access, that project cannot continue”, eastern England and the Wessex basins. Heat is every or would go ahead only after a lengthy and expensive bit as important as the generation of electricity—indeed, process. from this source probably more so. GC 39 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 40

This brings me to my amendment to the Government’s Lord Whitty (Lab): My Lords, I have an amendment new clause. Subsection (5) of that clause refers to in this group, Amendment 95ZBH, to go with Scotland. I have no doubt that my noble friend the Amendment 95ZBG. Those noble Lords who are familiar Duke of Montrose will enlighten us on this, but all the with the proceedings of the Energy Bill and the Water preceding subsections of that clause refer simply to Bill will know that my proposition here has appeared exploiting deep geothermal energy, without circumscribing before your Lordships in a different guise in both the purpose for which it is to be used. Subsection (5) those proceedings. I am reasonably convinced that confines it in Scotland to where the “sole, or main, shale gas and shale oil should be part of our energy use” of a site is “the generation of electricity”. I mix. I am somewhat sceptical about the exaggerated cannot understand why. Can they not use geothermal claims of the transformational effect of having a supply for heat purposes in Scotland? This subsection must of shale gas within the UK on our total energy mix, have been put in for some purpose, but for the life of but that is for the future. me I have not been able to discover what it is—nor, I I do not wish to impede the proper exploration or must say, have those advising me. This impact may be delivery of shale gas and oil. However, the Government the result of some technicality of devolution, but in have to recognise that some reassurance is required. It Scotland, under this clause, or using the facilities is not simply about campaigns and nimbyism and provided under this clause, geothermal can be used general antagonism towards shale gas and fracking; it only for the production of electricity. I would be very is a very realistic, logical and understandable apprehension interested to know what lies behind the need for of what impact could result from widespread use of this subsection. I commend this amendment to the this technology. As I say, I do not wish to impede it, Committee. except in certain respects, to which I shall come later. However, I implore the Government to recognise that, Lord Borwick (Con): My Lords, I welcome the if they are to give the go ahead to widespread use of Government’s amendments. They are critical to allow drilling, both exploratory and delivery, of shale and the shale gas industry to get on with the job of oil through fracking, the public need reassurance about extraction. Furthermore, these amendments involve the risks. Secondly, they need reassurance that the no disruption to families or communities. proper regulation covers them which, by and large, the The Government have said that the current rules Government have managed to assure me is there. for agreeing subsurface land access are time-consuming, Thirdly, I am less reassured about the degree to which uncertain and costly, as my noble friend mentioned. the enforcement of those regulations can be guaranteed Currently, landowners own the land to the centre of by the various bodies, particularly the Environment the earth. This means that companies involved in shale Agency, local authorities and the HSE. At the moment, gas have to negotiate for access to land thousands of the resources available to those bodies are being squeezed metres below the surface, where there is no possible rather than the opposite. While I have faith in those impact to households. However, given that lateral organisations—and both the noble Baroness, Lady wells could extend for several kilometres, this could Young, and myself have had some experience of the involve hundreds or thousands of individual negotiations Environment Agency—they have the ability to do it and make the industry unworkable. On top of this, but not currently the staffing or resources to deal with Greenpeace has set up a campaign—I believe it is widespread use of fracking and drilling. Therefore, we called Wrongmove—specifically designed to use this need reassuring on the level of resources as well as the legal loophole to stall the industry by asking people to rigorousness of enforcement. not allow land access rights. It is important that we get The final thing on which we need reassurance concerns a move on with shale extraction; such delaying tactics the public’s general apprehension that, despite the fact will slow the process right down. that we have good regulation and that in general the These amendments are welcome. They would bring regulations will be enforced, there could be some shale into line with other industries, such as coal and breach, disasters or unforeseen effects from a major telecommunications, which already drill and lay pipes new technology—and a very costly one locally and below people’s homes at a much shallower depth. The potentially more widely. History teaches us that we measures apply only to drilling 300 metres or more have had previous experience of this. In many ways we below the surface, and the proposals will not impact know the great benefits which were brought about by the robust regulations for shale gas drilling. The Royal the development of the coal industry and, most of us Society has concluded that the industry can be undertaken would argue, the nuclear industry, but they have also safely. My noble friend the Minister mentioned that caused serious risks and serious damage to our it will not affect people on the surface. Indeed, if environment. No provision was made in the early days people on the surface can actually detect that somebody of the coal industry—why would it be?—or indeed the is drilling a mile down beneath their land, they will be early days of the nuclear industry for the contingencies in such a state of technological advance relative to of clear-up of the waste and other damage which other human beings that I am sure they will be able might be caused. If we are moving to a new phase of to make a fortune out of that ability to detect technology, we should begin to make provision for fracking. However, I wish that legislation in this area ensuring that the industry that is licensed to undertake would not insist on the word “petroleum” to refer to shale fracking and drilling has the wherewithal to everything other than petrol. I appreciate that there meet any potential disastrous outcome. are some technical reasons, but it really does confuse My previous amendments to the earlier legislation matters. on energy and water were slightly more complicated I am very much in support of these amendments. than this, so I have tried to make it a bit simpler and GC 41 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 42

[LORD WHITTY] more than 300 metres deep. It does not in any way also to give the Government some flexibility. The disturb their properties above; 300 metres is a long Government could do this in a number of ways. They way down. Certainly all shale gas, conventional gas or could require as a condition of the licence that a oil, geothermal or hot rocks geothermal extraction contingency fund is established by an individual fund takes place below that level. or they could require that an individual firm donates I thank my noble friend Lord Jenkin for his excellent to a nationwide or region-wide fund. My amendments exposition of geothermal; I can see that the exchange therefore leave that with the Secretary of State and the of information will be more than two-way in the future form of the regulations entirely with the Secretary of and he will quickly overtake me on this issue. There State, but a contingency fund for that liability needs to has been an uncertain legal position over the right to be established in one way or another. I think that my heat; how do you define heat? It is not a substance but amendment makes that principle clear. The Government a characteristic of substances that you then extract. may not be prepared to accept the precise wording but These proposals make the situation absolutely clear to an indication that in principle they understand and developers so that geothermal extraction can start to accept that argument would be welcome. take place and investors can have some confidence in Again looking back somewhat historically, I say this form of energy. two other things. First, the Government make a lot of I had a great experience earlier this month. I went the fact that this is nothing new—that we have had to a quarry called Rosemanowes, near Penryn, some onshore wells in the UK for decades. I know that in 10 miles away from my home. More than 20 years my adopted county of Dorset there is a significant ago, the then DTI carried out some boring for amount of onshore oil drilling. However, it is also a geothermal experimentation there. Under DECC’s Energy fact, which I was not aware of until relatively recently, Entrepreneurs Fund, an organisation called Geothermal that over the last 100 years licences have been given for Engineering Limited has been able to reuse that borehole onshore drilling mainly in England at more than 2,000 by putting down another polypropylene pipe for wells. For 53% of those wells, most of which were 1.5 kilometres. Water was pumped down and came defunct years ago, the ownership is unclear. That back up from that depth at a temperature of 60 degrees. means that the liability is unclear and it also means The company reckoned that they could increase it to that if at some stage it is found that some damage has 90 degrees. Obviously, the further you go down the been done, we will not know who is liable. more you can increase the temperature. With the renewable Switching to looking forward, if we are now giving heat incentive introduced by the Government, deep licences to drill to a number of different organisations, geothermal heat becomes possible. As my noble friend some of which are relatively small companies, we need Lord Jenkin said, in the short term, extraction of heat to have the reassurance that in the future—and it may from geothermal will be far more important than the be decades in the future—they will have the wherewithal potential for electricity generation; you have to go to meet the costs of clearing up that damage. That is down to some 9 kilometres to increase the temperature what my amendment seeks to achieve. As I said, I am to 200 degrees. With much smaller investments, there not wedded to the wording. I can make it much more is potential to reuse existing boreholes —the noble complex again if the Government insist or they could Lord, Lord Whitty, said that there are 2,000 scattered make it much more complex themselves, but I would around England—for geothermal heat. That is why I like an indication of support in principle for my particularly welcome these new clauses. amendment. I predict that in the medium to long-term future, While I am on my feet, I express support for the geothermal will be far more important than shale gas. amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and the I also think that the shale gas revolution, which I am reference to heat, albeit that it is not entirely clear why not against as a substitute for North Sea oil strategically it is necessary and why the Scottish dimension is in our energy security, is probably overhyped. However, different from that of everybody else, but certainly if it can be made to work under exacting environmental heat from geothermal needs to be referred to in the standards, I do not want to get in its way. I therefore same context as power. welcome these clauses and accept that they must be Secondly, in general I support the overall approach considered within the context of very strict environmental of the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, control and licensing outside this piece of legislation. Lady Young.Surely, at least in relation to national parks, As to some of the other amendments, I agree with it must be clear that there should not be any above-ground my noble friend Lord Jenkin and do not understand drilling. At the very least, I hope that the Government why there is an exclusion regarding geothermal energy. will be prepared to accept that. A wider range of sites, I agree also with the noble Baroness, Lady Young,that which I would also like to be protected, is designated there should be some specific restrictions in the legislation. in the noble Baroness’s amendment. However, it is I am not sure the whole of her list should be included pretty clear that the population, whatever their views but we need to be firm about certain areas, and it on fracking and drilling in general, do not want any would be useful if it were stated in primary legislation. intrusions into our national parks. I very much agree with the objectives of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, but am not sure about some of the 4.15 pm detail. Why do we need a whole 12 months of monitoring Lord Teverson (LD): My Lords, I very much support beforehand, looking at base data? I am sure there are the amendments of my noble friend the Minister. The all sorts of technical reasons for that but I wonder if socialist in me would say that I do not see why individual they go a little far sometimes in standing in the way of landholders should have particular rights over ground a development that can go ahead. I agree that there GC 43 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 44 are a number of areas that we have to be very careful I turn to the specific issue of trespass, which these about. Whether those are put in secondary legislation clauses mainly address. They deal with a legal anomaly or in the Bill, I am not sure. I congratulate my noble that was established relatively recently by legal precedent. friend on bringing these amendments forward. They We believe that this anomaly should be addressed and will do great things for our energy mix in future. we do not agree that this somehow takes away a long-established right that people have held dear. It is The Duke of Montrose (Con): My Lords, I must certain that a legal precedent will be used to hold up apologise to the Committee as I have not read the the proceeding of geothermal and potentially fracking. consultation response and so am not up on all the People are saying that we need judicial scrutiny of issues that have been looked into. I declare an interest each and every incident of fracking, but that seems to as an owner of land in Scotland. me quite an inefficient and wasteful use of judicial As we venture into this field of land at a depth of time when we have existing systems for ensuring that more than 300 metres and questions of ownership and these projects go ahead under tight limits. interest, I just wonder whether all aspects have been looked at. One thing that is quite useful is that all coal, Equally, I have some sympathy with the numerous petroleum and so on are in the power of the Government civil society groups that have now set themselves in but there is a chance that, once a shale extraction site opposition to fracking. My reason is that, unfortunately, has been established and there are large channels out this whole issue has been handled so appallingly badly under various properties, people may find that something that there is now a deep sense of mistrust and opposition, else can be developed within that property. That might which is very genuine and heartfelt. Polling shows that be coal gasification or something like it at deeper as much as a quarter of the population is quite vehemently levels. I do not know how deep coal mines go in this opposed to fracking, a quarter is supportive and a half country. I hope, with any luck, that they are not more does not care, but that first quarter will be vocal and than 300 metres but some coal mines are very deep will want to have its voice listened to. The opposition indeed. One has to think of what effect establishing has grown because of the way that this matter has the shale gas network will have on other interests been presented to us. It was offered as a silver bullet to within the land. all our energy needs. We were told that this was going I was very interested in the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, to drastically reduce costs and create a huge number talking about the knowledge of the Environment Agency of jobs, and that was the basis on which it was promoted. in monitoring this. In fact, it may well be that the skills I was very interested to listen to the Minister’s that my noble friend Lord Borwick referred to in speech today, which was very different in tone. The being able to detect deep drilling will become rather emphasis was on energy security and climate change more vital. Presumably the Environment Agency can benefits relative to other sorts of fossil fuels. That is tell that drilling is more than 300 metres deep. It would very welcome because that is the area where fracking be perfectly possible to drill a hole 300 metres deep has a role to play in terms of potential security of and then put out side-feelers at less than 300 metres, supply. It is certainly also true to say that, done well saying “Oh, but we drilled to the depth we needed to”. with the proper environmental protections, fracking, That is where more surface problems might arise. and fracked gas in particular, can have a significantly I guess that the question of why heat is not included lower carbon footprint than imported sources of gas. in the Scottish powers is that we did not reserve heat to Westminster when we passed the Scotland Act. No I think that there has been a certain amount of doubt the Minister will tell me what the correct answer overhyping and a certain naive belief that we can look is on that. The other thing I thought of is this: supposing across the Atlantic at what has happened in the US this network is established at great cost and somebody and simply import it here. I am sure that those parallels then does something to damage it—certainly an have been drawn by various people in the Government. earthquake would damage it but you could not blame That is unfortunate because the US does not have a anyone for that—what rights do the owners of a shale reputation for strong environmental regulation—quite extraction business have to their assets that are underneath the opposite. It has also until very recently set itself other people’s property? against action on climate change. Therefore, one can see how the Government saying that we are going to Baroness Worthington (Lab): I will speak to the do what the US has done has necessarily upset people Government’s amendments to the Infrastructure Bill and caused them to be deeply suspicious. It is also true and to Amendment 95ZBE in my name. We have had that we are in a world where we are trying to take an excellent debate this afternoon. The Labour Party’s action to tackle climate change, and this is a potential commitment to environmental protection is absolutely new source of fossil fuel which is being brought to the steadfast. We have an excellent track record of delivering market and which would otherwise stay in the ground. protection for the environment in government. We were the Government that passed the Climate Change Therefore, I understand where the opposition is Act and the Countryside and Rights of Way Act. We coming from on this but I do not think that the also established the national parks. There should be solution is to hold up this new source of energy no doubt about our desire to enhance and protect our through exploitation of an obscure trespass precedent. environment, and tackle climate change. That said, we I think that the answer is to make sure that we have do not oppose the extraction of new fossil fuels in this very strong environmental protections and regulations, country on principle. However, we will insist that they and a number of the amendments that we have tabled respect environmental limits at both a local and global today have been put forward with that precise aim in level. mind. GC 45 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 46

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] areas, we should not ignore the fact that that leaves Our amendment is part of our attempt to introduce 88% that also needs proper protection and for this stronger environmental regulations for fracking for industry to be properly governed and managed. I am geothermal and gas. We will see fugitive emissions from interested to hear the Minister’s response to the arguments fossil fuel activities but at the moment there is not really put forward by the noble Baroness, which were very strong. a government policy or an environmental approach to The amendment of my noble friend Lord Whitty such emissions in this country. My noble friend Lord raised another interesting issue. The idea of a contingency Whitty pointed out that we have been extracting fossil fuels fund has merit. It is certainly the case that sites have onshore for a couple of centuries and that we have had become orphaned in the past and that ownership changes. some experiences. However, relatively speaking, climate Some of these companies are not large petrochemical change is quite a new thing and fugitive emissions have or global energy companies but smaller wildcat companies not been considered to be an issue before. There is of that may not be around for very long, so there is a risk. course monitoring of these facilities but mainly from a This is definitely something that we should explore. health and safety perspective. Companies do not like to I am always interested to hear from the noble Lord, have obviously dangerous concentrations of methane Lord Jenkin of Roding. I was particularly interested because it is potentially explosive, which is a health and this afternoon in his excellent and hugely encouraging safety issue and could damage equipment. There is an exposition of the role that geothermal can play. The incentive for them to do that sort of monitoring but noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is right. We might see the there is little incentive to do monitoring that relates to geothermal industry move forward with much less climate change. Our concern is that, overall, if we are fanfare but with a more solid basis than fracking. The going to see this industry develop—and I remain geothermal provisions are important. This is an exciting relatively sceptical that it will happen on the scale that source of potential renewable energy, particularly some people hope—we should do this firmly in the renewable heat. As was mentioned, the renewable heat knowledge that it must be monitored and managed in incentive could put this technology on the map. We terms of our climate change targets and carbon budgets. could become world leaders in it, which would be nice. It should go without saying, but geothermal is ultimately 4.30 pm a source of nuclear energy because it is the radioactive I learnt fairly recently over the recess that at the elements in the core of the earth that keep the heat. moment the UK has a network of monitoring stations This is possibly a really efficient, effective and cheap way dotted around the country that monitor background of doing nuclear power, which we probably need. levels of greenhouse gases in much the same way that I will end there. This is a question of balance. We the Mauna Loa facility does in Hawaii. These are used do not wish to impede activities that can improve our to try to assess whether our inventory of greenhouse security of supply, but we need this to be done in the gases is accurate. We have a bottom-up inventory that context of robust regulation. Unfortunately, I do not takes the point sources of greenhouse gases and adds think that that is the spirit that has prevailed to date. them all together. These monitoring stations are used These amendments address a very narrow aspect of to cross check to see whether we are capturing what we fracking and there is not really anything here from the think is happening. It is complex and a lot of mathematics Government on the environmental aspects. That is needs to be done to normalise these data but they regrettable. We have tabled amendments that seek to exist. It is showing, I am told, that we have far higher address that and we will debate those shortly. methane levels in parts per million in the UK than the inventory would imply. Baroness Verma: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords, The methane could be coming from a number of in particular my noble friends Lord Borwick, Lord sources and I am not saying that it is all coming from Teverson and Lord Jenkin, for their support for the the fossil fuel industry, but given that we have this amendments. The debate has been informative and potential anomaly, it is probably not sensible to be measured. I hope, in responding to the amendments, embarking on a huge new industry—if indeed it ever that I can reassure noble Lords and address some of becomes that—that is a source of methane without the concerns that have been raised. If I do not satisfy proper management and monitoring. Our amendment noble Lords today I will read Hansard and write back would require the Secretary of State to look into this to them in fuller detail. and work with the Committee on Climate Change to The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, assess fugitive emissions and come up with a plan for Lady Youngof Old Scone, would exclude these proposals reporting, monitoring and managing those emissions at a range of locations, including national parks, the so that we can have accurate reporting into our inventory Broads and areas of outstanding natural beauty. She and then a management procedure to make sure that called them the jewels of our great country. Companies we stay within our budgets. will still need all their other permissions to be in place A number of noble Lords have spoken eloquently before accessing underground land. Sensitive areas this afternoon. The noble Baroness, Lady Young of would be protected in exactly the same way as they are Old Scone, made a persuasive case for the exclusion of now. The Government have recently clarified the strong fracking in protected areas. I began as a campaigner protections that exist for these areas. Where applications working on the CROW Act, so I am passionate about represent major development, planning permission can protecting the jewels in our crown, as the noble Baroness and should be refused in national parks, the Broads described them. However, we need this industry to be and areas of outstanding natural beauty except in well regulated wherever it occurs, not just in the jewels exceptional circumstances where it can be demonstrated in our crown. If only 12% to 15% is covered by those they are in the public interest. GC 47 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 48

Applicants for licences will also have to show that rigour of the regulators. As I set out in my opening they understand the environmental sensitivities of the remarks, fracking will enable us to reduce our carbon area applied for and are ready and geared up to footprint. I know that both the noble Baroness and I address them. They will have to consider the implications share concerns about environmental impact, and we of the new planning guidance. We do not intend to work hard and closely together. I am very pleased that include any exemptions to these in our proposals, the Opposition agree that we want to ensure, first and because we believe that the existing regimes have already foremost, that it is environmentally acceptable to reduce been clarified to allow for these sensitivities. our carbon footprint and work towards reducing carbon The noble Baroness also asked whether this clause emissions. I have certainly never felt that the Government would lead to water shortages. Where water for fracking have seen fracking as the silver bullet. What I have operations has been provided by local water companies, seen and heard many times over is that it is part of the they are obligated to produce and update every five wider energy mix that we need to have in our country years a long-term plan that has contingency reserves to ensure that we have energy security and less dependency in case of drought. Therefore, water companies will on outsourcing it from international markets. always assess the amount of water available before I turn to the amendment proposed by the noble providing it to operators. The Environment Agency Lord, Lord Whitty, for the establishment of a contingency has said that it will not license abstraction above fund by undertakings engaged in the onshore oil and environmentally sustainable levels. The amount of water gas industry in order to meet the cost of any environmental used for fracking is controlled by an abstraction licence or economic damage caused as a result of onshore oil specifying the maximum amount that can be used. or gas activities. Let me make it clear that the operator My noble friend Lord Jenkin very eloquently laid is liable for the shale gas well and any damage or out the potential of geothermal—far better than I did. pollution it may cause. When operations finish, the His amendment proposes to extend the right to use operator is responsible for safe decommissioning of deep-level land for geothermal energy where the main the well and for restoring the site to its previous state use of that energy is, or will be, the generation of heat, or suitable condition for reuse. Regulators and controls as well as electricity. He also asked about Scotland. are in place to minimise risks and any impact on My noble friend the Duke of Montrose was able to landowners. Any one of these regulators will consider respond to and answer that question for me by saying individual concerns about impacts, as far as they fall that the amendment includes geothermal energy for within their responsibilities. If any environmental damage the purpose of electricity generation because, under were to occur, then, in accordance with statutory the Scotland Act 1998, generation is a reserved matter. requirements and government policy, remediation of So the use of deep geothermal energy for other purposes the damage would be dealt with under the main regimes is devolved to the Scottish Government and, for that for dealing with contamination. These regimes provide reason, we have had to exclude it from clauses; however, for the remediation of environmental damage and we are in discussion with the Scottish Government as contaminated land, including water, and apply to the to whether they wish to extend the scope to cover this extraction of both petroleum and deep geothermal area of heat generation. energy. Taken together, if a company causes damage, harm or pollution to the environment, companies can My noble friend Lord Borwick asked why we used be required under these regimes to remediate the effects the word “petroleum”. Licences to exploit oil and gas and prevent further damage or pollution. This is the in the UK are awarded under Section 3 of the Petroleum same approach that applies to other industries and we Act 1998, and that Act permits the Department of believe that the existing law is robust. Energy and Climate Change to grant licences to search for, bore for and get petroleum. So we use “petroleum” At present, if a shale gas operator becomes insolvent in the context of the Bill because the licences granted and no rescue mechanism for the company can be to operators are petroleum licences under the 1998 Act. found, in limited circumstances the liability could ultimately pass to the landowner. Environmental regulators I turn to the amendments of the noble Baroness, and planning authorities have the power to require Lady Worthington, to which the noble Lord, Lord upfront financial bonds to address this risk wherever Davies, has put his name. The purpose is the production they deem this necessary. This is more expensive for of a report on fugitive greenhouse gas emissions from companies than a group scheme would be but it provides onshore energy extraction, and that the report be the reassurance that neither taxpayers nor landowners produced six months after the passing of this Bill, and will be left to foot the bill. As a less expensive alternative will include, to upfront bonds, my department has been working “monitoring, reporting and managing of existing and future with the industry’s trade body, the UKOOG, the onshore fugitive emissions”. operators group, to ensure the development of an industry I draw noble Lords’ attention to the fact that these scheme that will step in and pay for the liabilities in fugitive emissions are reported already at a national this situation and any other where the liable company level on an annual basis, as part of the UK Greenhouse cannot be identified. Gas Inventory. The detailed methodologies and data sources used to inform these emission estimates are 4.45 pm provided in that report, which is publicly available. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, also asked how the The noble Baroness of course raises the concerns of regulators would be funded. The HSE and the certain groups, and we should take all concerns raised Environment Agency have confirmed that they have by all people very seriously. However, we must remain sufficient specialist inspectors to deliver the regime for committed to ensuring that we work absolutely to the which they are responsible during the current shale GC 49 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 50

[BARONESS VERMA] Baroness Worthington: My Lords, I am afraid that I gas exploratory phase. If a large number of wells are am not reassured by the noble Baroness’s reply either, drilled in order to produce shale gas, the HSE and the welcome though it was. It is good that this is being Environment Agency may need to increase the number captured and possibly reported, but my point was that of inspectors accordingly, but there are plans in place I do not think that it is capturing all the point sources to review their resources at relevant times. There is no as accurately as it could. More than that, somebody risk of production increasing too quickly for regulators reporting emissions is not really the nub of the problem; to keep pace, as has happened in some cases in the US. it is managing those emissions down and ensuring that Before activities can begin, the operator will need to they stay within a carbon budget. I believe that the have received the relevant permits from the regulators, Government need to think again about whether they so any excess applications would be held until the have a policy package in place to deal with fugitive regulator was able to take a decision. emissions. I do not think that they do. Therefore, this The noble Lord also asked about long-term ownership amendment is important, but at this stage I am happy and therefore liability.A study conducted by the ReFINE not to move it. group identified a large number of wells where it was not clear who the operator was, but the majority dated from the 1940s or earlier, so this would no longer be Amendment 95ZBE (to Amendment 95ZBC) not moved. the case. I hope that my reassurances to my noble friend and to noble Lords have been sufficient and that the noble Amendment 95ZBC agreed. Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment. Amendment 95ZBF Baroness Young of Old Scone: I thank the Minister Moved by Baroness Verma for her response to my amendment to her amendment 95ZBF: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— but I do not think that I am convinced. At the very “Further provision about the right of use least, if the guidance proposed for national parks, the (1) The ways in which the right of use may be exercised Broads, AONBs and World Heritage sites is all that is include— on offer, can we at least have that guidance expanded (a) drilling, boring, fracturing or otherwise altering deep- to special protection areas, special areas for conservation level land; and SSSIs? It seems a shame that we are getting (b) installing infrastructure in deep-level land; reassurances on landscape but not on biodiversity (c) keeping, using or removing any infrastructure installed when the UK is already failing its biodiversity internal in deep-level land; scorecard. However, at this point, I beg leave to withdraw (d) passing any substance through, or putting any substance the amendment. into, deep-level land or infrastructure installed in deep- level land; Amendment 95ZBCA (to Amendment 95ZBC) withdrawn. (e) keeping, using or removing any substance put into deep-level land or into infrastructure installed in deep-level land. Amendment 95ZBD (to Amendment 95ZBC) (2) The purposes for which the right of use may be exercised include— Tabled by Lord Jenkin of Roding (a) searching for petroleum or deep geothermal energy; 95ZBD: Line 16, after second “of” insert “heat and” (b) assessing the feasibility of exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal energy; (c) preparing for exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I am completely energy; convinced by my noble friend’s reply and am interested (d) decommissioning, and other activity which falls to be to know that the Government are in discussion with continued or undertaken, in consequence of activities the Scottish Government about heat being used. I undertaken for the purposes of exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal energy. think that we need to follow this up, but in the mean time I am very happy not to move this amendment. (3) The right of use includes the right to leave deep-level land in a different condition from the condition it was in before an exercise of the right of use (including by leaving any infrastructure or substance in the land). Amendment 95ZBD (to Amendment 95ZBC) not moved. (4) The right of use— (a) does not give a person (“R”) any power which is greater Amendment 95ZBE (to Amendment 95ZBC) than, or different from, the power which R would have had if the right had been granted by a person legally Tabled by Baroness Worthington entitled to grant it; and 95ZBE: Line 16, at end insert— (b) does not relieve a person (“R”) from any obligation or liability to which R would have been subject if the right “(6) No later than 6 months after the passing of this Act, the had been granted by a person legally entitled to grant it. Secretary of State must, in consultation with the Committee on Climate Change, publish a report on fugitive green-house gas (5) Section (Petroleum and geothermal energy: right to use emissions from on-shore energy extraction in the UK. deep-level land) and this section bind the Crown.” (7) The report must include proposals for the measurement, monitoring, reporting and managing of existing and future fugitive emissions.” Amendment 95ZBF agreed. GC 51 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 52

(2) The regulations may require relevant energy undertakings— Amendment 95ZBG (a) to give notice— (i) to owners of relevant land or interests in relevant Moved by Baroness Verma land; 95ZBG: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— (ii) to persons of other specified descriptions; “Payment scheme (b) to display notice within the area in which relevant land is (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, require relevant situated or elsewhere; energy undertakings to make payments in respect of the proposed (c) to publish notice (otherwise than by displaying the exercise, or exercise, of the right of use. notice). (2) The regulations may require payments to be made— (3) The regulations may make provision about the information (a) to owners of relevant land or interests in relevant land; which the notice is to contain, including provision about information relating to— (b) to other persons for the benefit of areas in which relevant land is situated. (a) any payment scheme regulations which are in force; (3) The regulations may— (b) the application of any payment scheme regulations to the proposed exercise, or exercise, of the right of use; (a) specify the amount or amounts of payments; (c) the method for obtaining a payment under any payment (b) make provision for determining the amount or amounts scheme regulations. of payments. (4) The regulations may make provision about the manner in (4) The regulations may require relevant energy undertakings which notice is to be given, displayed or published, including to provide the Secretary of State, or any other specified person, provision requiring notice to be— with specified information about— (a) the proposed exercise, or exercise, of the right of use; (a) displayed at specified places or places of specified descriptions; (b) the making of payments in accordance with regulations under this section. (b) published in specified publications or publications of specified descriptions. (5) Before making any regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult such persons as the Secretary of (5) The regulations may require relevant energy undertakings State considers appropriate.” to provide the Secretary of State, or any other specified person, with specified information about— (a) the proposed exercise, or exercise, of the right of use; Amendment 95ZBH (to Amendment 95ZBG) (b) the giving of notice in accordance with regulations Tabled by Lord Whitty under this section. (6) Before making regulations under this section, the Secretary 95ZBH: Line 13, at end insert— of State must consult such persons as the Secretary of State “(c) make provision for any contingency fund prescribed by considers appropriate. the Secretary of State under subsection (3A). (7) In this section “payment scheme regulations”means regulations “(3A) Regulations shall enable the Secretary of State to require under section (Payment scheme).” the establishment of one or more contingency funds either by a 95ZBK: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— single energy undertaking, or by a number of energy undertakings or by all undertakings engaged in the on-shore gas and oil “Payment and notice schemes: supplementary provision industry, and such a contingency fund shall be available to meet (1) Regulations under section (Payment scheme) or (Notice the cost of unforeseen damage to the environment or economic scheme) may make provision about the enforcement of relevant damage to any person or persons arising from the operation of oil requirements, including provision for the imposition of financial or onshore gas activity.” penalties in respect of breach of relevant requirements. (2) Regulations under section (Payment scheme) or (Notice Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am not entirely convinced scheme) may confer a function on— by what the Minister said. Indeed, her reference to the (a) the Secretary of State, or need for an industry scheme for potential compensation (b) any other person, apart from the Scottish Ministers or where it is unclear where the liability lies shows that the Welsh Ministers. there is an issue here. I would be grateful if between (3) The functions that may be imposed include— now and Report the Minister could let us have some (a) a duty (including a restriction or prohibition); more information on that and on the bond scheme to (b) a function involving the exercise of a discretion; which she referred, because I am still broadly of the opinion that this needs to be underwritten by legislation. (c) a requirement to consult. Subject to that, I shall not move the amendment. (4) The provisions of sections (Payment scheme) and (Notice scheme) and this section which specify particular kinds of provision that may be made in regulations under section (Payment scheme) Amendment 95ZBH (to Amendment 95ZBG) not moved. or (Notice scheme) do not limit the powers conferred by that section to make such regulations. Amendment 95ZBG agreed. (5) The Secretary of State must carry out a review of sections (Payment scheme) and (Notice scheme) and the preceding provisions of this section as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of Amendments 95ZBJ to 95ZBL the period of 5 years beginning with the day on which they come Moved by Baroness Verma into force. (6) The Secretary of State must by regulations— 95ZBJ: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— (a) repeal section (Payment scheme), and make any “Notice scheme consequential amendments (including repeals) of the (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, require relevant other provisions of this Act that the Secretary of State energy undertakings to give notice of the proposed exercise, or considers appropriate, if the relevant conditions are met exercise, of the right of use. in relation to the power under section (Payment scheme); GC 53 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 54

[BARONESS VERMA] “(1A) Notices under subsection (1) must, in the case of shale (b) repeal section (Notice scheme), and make any consequential gas extraction, include baseline levels of methane in the groundwater. amendments (including repeals) of the other provisions (1B) Where a notice under subsection (1) includes baseline of this Act that the Secretary of State considers appropriate, levels of methane in the groundwater, the Agency must issue a if the relevant conditions are met in relation to the power notice under subsection (2) requiring the levels of methane in the under section (Notice scheme). groundwater to be measured over a 12 month period.”” (7) The relevant conditions are met in relation to the power under section (Payment scheme) or the power under section Baroness Worthington: I shall speak also to (Notice scheme) if— Amendments 95ZBN and 95ZBP.This carries on from (a) that power is not exercised within the period of 7 years where we left off in the last debate. As we said, we are beginning with the day on which that section comes into absolutely committed to improving our environment force, and and meeting our legally binding climate change goals. (b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that there is no A key aspect of any new development, specifically an convincing case for retaining that power.” energy development based on fossil fuels, is that we 95ZBL: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— need to ensure that the industry is set up in a way that “Interpretation is fit for the 21st century and the challenges faced by (1) For the purposes of deciding whether land is deep-level the 21st century. land— We understand that this industry is really just getting (a) the depth of a point in land below surface level is the going, but that is not the case everywhere. In the US, distance between that point and the surface of the land vertically above that point; and we have seen the industry grow very quickly with minimal regulation. That has been the cause of a high (b) in determining what is the surface of the land, any building or other structure on the land, and any water degree of concern. There are conflicting reports, but it covering the land, must be ignored. seems that you can have increased methane emissions (2) In sections (Petroleum and geothermal energy: right to use to air and groundwater from these activities. deep-level land) to (Payment and notice schemes: supplementary Our first amendment would require that we get a provision) and this section— handle on this issue and have a process for establishing “deep geothermal energy”means geothermal energy in deep-level a baseline of methane emissions to groundwater. land (including in water or any other fluid in deep-level land); Obviously, this is a complex issue and the exact wording “deep-level land” has the meaning given in section (Petroleum of the amendment may not be precisely as it would and geothermal energy: right to use deep-level land)(4); need to be to address the problem. However, we have “landward area” has the same meaning as in the Petroleum tabled it now because we are absolutely committed to Licensing (Exploration and Production) (Landward Areas) ensuring that this is done in the right way. We hope Regulations 2014 (see regulation 1(2) of those Regulations); that the Government can share that concern and goal. “petroleum” has the same meaning as in Part 1 of the Petroleum As I mentioned, the existing monitoring of methane is Act 1998 (see section 1 of that Act); more geared towards health and safety than environmental “relevant energy undertaking” means a person who proposes to exercise, or exercises, the right of use; concerns. That is what I allude to when I say that this “relevant land” means land in respect of which the right of use must be governed in a way that is fit for the 21st century, is proposed to be, or is, exercised; where those global environmental concerns now have “relevant requirement” means a requirement imposed by greater weighting than they have done. regulations under section (Payment scheme) or (Notice scheme); There is obviously the question of how you go about “right of use” means the right conferred by section (Petroleum the monitoring. Also, as touched on in the previous and geothermal energy: right to use deep-level land); debate, there is the question of the cost. I hear anecdotally “Scottish deep-level land” means deep-level land in Scotland that the Environment Agency recently put in an or beneath waters adjacent to Scotland; application to the department for a sum of money to “specified”means specified in regulations under section (Payment enable a very accurate form of laser monitoring to take scheme) or (Notice scheme); place. That request for additional funds was declined. “substance” includes electricity and any other intangible thing. Are funds being made available so that the Environment (3) The power of the Secretary of State to make regulations Agency can do this job properly, so that we can start under section 4 of the Petroleum Act 1998 includes power to out on the right foot and ensure that we are using the make such amendments of the definition of “landward area” in best technologies that we know exist to get a good and subsection (2) above as the Secretary of State considers appropriate in consequence of any other exercise of the power under section 4 accurate data set to enable us to manage this? of the 1998 Act.” Amendment 95ZBN covers a number of different issues, beginning with the mandatory use of environmental Amendments 95ZBJ to 95ZBL agreed. impact assessments. At the moment, we know that the industry is volunteering to do environmental impact assessments for all fracking applications but we do not Amendment 95ZBM think that a voluntary approach is the right way Moved by Baroness Worthington forward. We also heard evidence from a number of 95ZBM: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— groups that they see applications coming in that are “Shale gas extraction: baseline monitoring conveniently sized at 0.9 hectares, which is just a tiny fraction below the statutory requirement. If you are a (1) No shale gas extraction may take place before the operator has measured the baseline levels of methane in the groundwater hectare in size, you must conduct an EIA. The RSPB over a 12 month period. made representations to us that it has been asked to (2) After section 199(1) of the Water Resources Act 1991 comment on planning applications where no EIA has (notice etc. of mining operations which may affect water conservation) been shared with it. Even if the industry says that it is insert— going forward on a voluntary basis, in practice it is not GC 55 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 56 at all clear that that is actually the case. I suppose that Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab): My Lords, I the particular issue is that the footprint of fracking wanted to address this series of amendments not seen above ground is quite small but its impacts in because I am opposed to any of them but to make a terms of the wider local and global environment can be plea for looking at the genuinely objective evidence extensive. There is definitely a need for an EIA, irrespective that is available. Durham University is conducting a of the size of the footprint of the site, because it has lot of independent, objective analysis of fracking incidents such potential extended impacts from its operation. and the potential threats. I agree with my noble friend Among those impacts is the use of fracking fluids. Lady Worthington that there is a need to build public This is another great difference between the UK and trust, but sometimes it is hard to do that when certain the US. In the US, there was minimal regulation: you organisations are totally hostile to fracking applying could literally do what you liked and did not need to in any circumstances whatever. They make allegations tell anybody. That has not given the industry a good that are, quite frankly, unsubstantiated. That is my reputation. We do not want that repeated here. There concern. When we look at evidence, we need to look at is a need to disclose the fracking fluids. Obviously, evidence that is substantiated. when they are a mile down they are perhaps not of Another website that is worth looking at is that of huge concern to local populations, but they come back the US Environmental Protection Agency. It frequently up and there is the question of their handling above asks questions such as: why does there need to be a ground. It is not just a question of saying that they are two-year analysis of what is going on, and why can we too far away for us to care about. These fluids obviously not say now that fracking is terrible, ruins the environment have to get into the ground, but then they come out and so forth? The response is that that is not the case. again, so there needs to be proper disclosure. Only There have been some quite dreadful things. To my then can you build up the trust needed to get the social eternal shame, a BBC programme endeavoured to show licence for these projects to go ahead. that fracking was the cause of methane contamination, The third element is that water companies should which meant that you could light the gas as it came become statutory consultees. This touches on another out of the tap. My plea is that of course we should and controversial aspect of fracking: its use of water. have proper safeguards and we need to build public Water often powers the fracking and the demand for trust, but we also need to ensure that we are not water is extensive. We are fortunate in the UK that, at repeating unsubstantiated allegations and that we look certain times of year, we do not have a shortage of at objective evidence. Of course fracking will not be water, but at other times of year we do. We have the the total solution but there is no doubt that, certainly issue of abstraction from water courses. We would not in America, it has substantially cut emissions and it want to see this industry exacerbate areas already could have a role to play here, although the environment under stress. I know that the industry will say that we is somewhat different. are moving to recycled use of water, but in reality a significant proportion of the fracking fluid stays Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I do not think underground and does not ever come back, so recycling that any of us is in any doubt about the importance of is only part of the solution. There is also the potential baseline monitoring for the purposes of environmental for pollution of wastewater and drinking water sources, control. I totally agree with much of what the noble so it is correct that the water companies should be Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, said about the statutory consultees on applications. misrepresentation that is going around on the whole question of fracking. This must be scientifically based. 5pm To my mind, that is where both the Government and We set out a couple of years ago a list of six the industry have so far failed to convince the public of environmental criteria that we wanted to see addressed the case for fracking. As the noble Baroness, Lady in order for fracking to go ahead. We know that some Worthington, said in her opening speech, my noble have been addressed to date but we are concerned that, friend Lady Verma made the case for the need for in bringing forward these amendments to address the shale gas on environmental grounds. That is the case trespass issue, the Government have not taken the we need to go on pressing. opportunity to introduce regulations that can improve With regard to the amendment moved by the noble the environmental management of this industry. It can Baroness, Lady Worthington, an enormous amount of only be good to build confidence and demonstrate that work is being done by the British Geological Survey you are taking those environmental questions seriously. on the baseline monitoring of contaminants of various This is even more important when we have a Prime kinds, and on the protection of water. This has been Minister who attends a climate change meeting in sparked by examples in America, where there never New York and uses it as a platform to say that fracking has been any proper baseline monitoring. That is an is the answer and that we have to get rid of the green example of the imperfections of their system of regulation, tape holding it back. That is not the way to engender of which our people have taken full account. They trust and support among the general public and it is recognise that if we are to control contaminants—it is totally inappropriate in the context of the international very important that that should be done—we need to climate change negotiations. We can see where the know where we are starting from. That is the heart of distrust comes from and it needs to be addressed. That the noble Baroness’s amendment. can be done only when the Government come forward I am told that the British Geological Survey is with comprehensive regulations that ensure that the about to publish a further study. It originally put in environment is put at the heart of this and is not just the 12-month period on the grounds that there might seen as an afterthought. I beg to move. be seasonal variations. Its latest work on the contamination GC 57 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 58

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] work done by the British Geological Survey mentioned of drinking water has shown that there are no seasonal by my noble friend Lord Jenkin. I understand that it variations: there is no evidence of that at all. I would was published on Monday 6 October as an interim not be in the least surprised if, in its further report—this study and found in its conclusions that background is the advice I have had—it finds the 12-month period methane in aquifers is generally low and that the to be unreasonable and that the best method of assessing majority of sites that it has studied over time have baseline monitoring for methane should be scientifically shown little change in the methane levels. That suggests based. The work that is done by the BGS in this country that a risk-based approach should be taken, rather is, for the most part, to the highest standard. The than monitoring in every individual site proposed. Government are entirely justified in putting their faith On the second amendment in this group, Amendment in it. 95ZBN, the danger I see is the composition and amount I do not know what the Minister will say in response of fracturing fluid cannot necessarily be told immediately to the amendment, but I would guess that everything at the beginning of the planning process. If this the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, is asking for amendment was passed, if it was decided to change is, in one way or another, already being achieved or the chemical make-up of the fracturing fluid, the whole will be achieved by the Government’s existing policy. I planning process would have to be gone through again am interested to hear my noble friend’s reply. I share —and, if it turned out that a greater quantity was the view of the Committee that baseline monitoring is needed than originally proposed, it would be necessary absolutely crucial if we are to have effective regulation. to go through the planning process again. Given that that process is in danger of taking many months or Baroness Young of Old Scone: My Lords, I shall years to go through, a small geological change that comment on baseline monitoring. We need to learn increases the amount of fracking fluid that is required from other monitoring schemes that are already in might delay the process right in the middle and make place as a result of regulatory regimes and the planning the situation more dangerous than it would otherwise system. have been. All this is being looked at by the Environment There are two issues here. First, the 12-month period Agency and, with its rules, we should increase the may not be required for methane monitoring but it confidence of people in the work that is being done on certainly is for biodiversity monitoring, which is also the regulation of fracking by that agency. mentioned in one amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. Too often, I have Lord Whitty: My Lords, I want to underline one seen planning appeals and inquiries get hideously point under Amendment 95ZBN, which will be tedious beached as a result of inadequate 12-month monitoring because it was raised during the course of the passage of biodiversity impact. If a species is present only at of the Water Bill, on the role of water companies. I certain times of the year, it is quite difficult to do a understand the exasperation of my noble friend Lord baseline account of it if you are doing that in a season Youngand the noble Lord, Lord Borwick, who referred when the species is not present and is not expected to in similar terms earlier to scares being raised about be present. That causes delays in planning processes. It shale gas, and their not necessarily being very scientifically is important to make it very clear that some of these based. However, I do not think that Thames Water impacts and baselines can be dealt with only on a or Severn Trent Water fall into the category of 12-month basis. scaremongering green organisations. They really ought I accept the commendation by the noble Lord, to be brought into this process, because the biggest Lord Jenkin, of the work done by the BGS and other anxiety is about the effects on the water system and statutory agency baseline surveys and ongoing monitoring giving the water companies a statutory consultee role processes. However, the other point of principle we ought would help to reassure a number of people about the to regard as important is the need to make commercial effect of fracking operations on the water supply. I organisations that want to undertake commercial activities therefore hope that proposed new subsection (3) in responsible for ensuring that the baseline monitoring that amendment is adopted by the Government. that needs to happen before they begin is undertaken—and undertaken at their expense. That is an important Baroness Verma: My Lords, again, I am extremely principle commonly adopted in many regulatory regimes grateful for the measured way in which this debate is and in much of the planning system. We must not taking place and for the very eloquent way in which move away from that. It is important that the commercial noble Lords have presented their arguments, whether organisations get their heads around what the issues of supporting what the Government are doing or raising their impact are before they start to put forward their amendments to show concerns. I welcome the spirit propositions, rather than relying on somebody else’s behind the amendments, which are aimed at ensuring baselines and not really understanding, when their that environmental safety is fully protected throughout propositions come forward, what they will need to the shale gas extraction process and reassuring the monitor and how they will need to monitor it. That is public that that is the case. My noble friend Lord an absolutely fundamental principle. Borwick said that to enable trust we need to ensure that the regulators are presenting a trustworthy way in Lord Borwick: My Lords, I entire agree with the which to approach the regulatory system. noble Baroness when she says that the task is to We have among the most trusted regulators in the increase people’s confidence in this process of fracking, world. The commitments the regulators—the Environment but I am absolutely certain that the 12-month baseline Agency and so forth—have undertaken has allowed suggested here is not the right solution, because of the the debate to become much more measured. GC 59 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 60

5.15 pm revision of the EIA directive and was roundly rejected We fully agree with these aims and appreciate the by member states, including the United Kingdom. We noble Baroness’s desire to support this industry’s appreciate the desire to build public confidence at this development as long as these aims are met. However, early stage but believe the desired outcome is already we believe the existing system already delivers these being achieved through industry commitments. aims, underpinned as it is by site-specific decision-making The third element, chemical disclosure, is already from experts in the environment, health and safety and required on a well-by-well basis. Operators must notify local planning. In addition, a number of existing the environmental regulator of the volume and industry commitments address elements of this composition of the frack fluid and seek its permission amendment, even where the expert regulators might prior to proceeding. The regulator will set this out not deem them necessary. when publishing the permit, including each chemical In weighing up these amendments, I hope noble and the maximum concentration authorised for use. Lords agree that we must follow a risk-based approach In addition, the industry has committed to publish to shale gas development, one that gives confidence to this information, including each of the chemicals used, the public because it is firmly rooted in the best the total volume of frack fluid used and the maximum available science. It has to be evidenced, as the noble volume of each chemical within that. Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, stated. Turning to the fourth element on making water On the first element of the amendments, we agree companies statutory consultees, the Government with the Opposition that baseline monitoring is essential understand the concern over not just water pollution before production begins, in addition to ongoing but water use. On the former, the environmental regulator monitoring throughout the period of activities. The checks the potential impact on groundwater of any UK already has a good set of regional groundwater hydraulic fracturing operations ahead of any hydraulic data, thanks to work conducted by the British Geological fracturing taking place and will not grant a permit Survey, to which my noble friend Lord Jenkin referred. where the risk is unacceptable, such as if there were a In addition, the Environment Agency has confirmed risk of hazardous chemicals entering an aquifer. that it would typically require baseline monitoring of On the question of water use, the water industry groundwater methane for each specific site proposing and shale operators have agreed an MoU to engage to undertake fracking. The agency would not normally early and share plans for water demand and waste require baseline monitoring for sites without fracking management. because they do not include any form of fluid injection, so there is no discharge to the environment. Currently, if a water company has concerns about For fracked sites, the precise length of time the this or any other aspect such as water usage it is able to agency would require would depend on the risks and comment through the consultation that the planning characteristics at that site. However, typically this would authority undertakes on each planning application, be a three-month period, not 12 months as proposed. which is open to the public. If the authority wishes, it This is because methane levels do not fluctuate from is already free to consult the water company to seek one season to another, as the BGS’s extensive work the company’s views on the planning merits of the has revealed. As such, a risk-based approach would development. Making the water company a statutory not require the lengthy period suggested by the noble consultee would add very little to this process other Baroness. I am particularly conscious of the need to than removing the important local discretion that a follow a risk-based approach on this issue because the planning authority has to decide for itself when it period suggested could, as my noble friend Lord Borwick needs the views of others, based on the specifics of the said, take a site out of production for a whole year. case. Importantly it would also oblige the water company Therefore, while I appreciate the sentiment behind this to make a response whether it wished to or not. Given amendment, a blanket approach of 12 months for all the opportunities already available to do so and the sites does not feel proportionate. broader controls that apply, we do not think adding this obligation enhances the level of environmental On the second element, the industry has already protection already in place. publicly committed to carrying out environmental impact assessments for all fracking sites, and this commitment The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, has been seen through in the planning applications referred to the work done at Durham University. The submitted earlier this year. This goes beyond EU noble Lord was not present for the debate on the requirements, which require environmental impact earlier amendment where I referred to the ReFINE assessments to be undertaken for production above report. I completely agree with him on the importance certain levels or where the scheme exceeds certain of considering relevant analysis, reports and evidence. other thresholds and is likely to have significant effects. I am sorry that he missed the important contribution that I made earlier on. Operators appreciate that at this early stage of development, public confidence is key.They have therefore The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, asked about voluntarily agreed to conduct EIAs whenever fracking the programme of research monitoring methane emissions is involved. We welcome this industry agreement. from shale, oil and gas exploratory sites. The UK Nevertheless, we are concerned that legislating to force Onshore Operators Group has committed to monitoring this, and to do so for all shale sites even where hydraulic work being undertaken on its sites. The noble Baroness, fracturing is not proposed and the development is unlikely Lady Young,asked who paid for the baseline monitoring. to have significant effects, would be disproportionate. The operators pay for this and arrange for it to be The proposal was discussed as part of the recent carried out. GC 61 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 62

[BARONESS VERMA] I hope that more can be said about the role of the I hope I have managed to convince noble Lords water companies as well. It is not just us who think that we have taken and take very seriously the issues of that they should be statutory consultees; this is coming public confidence and trust, and of ensuring that we from Water UK. Therefore, it is certainly something do absolutely everything we can to monitor and report that the Government should take seriously. Of course, on this, keeping safety for the environment and local if the water companies are required to make a response, people at the forefront of all that is undertaken. I hope they do not have to make it a voluminous response; it the noble Baroness will withdraw her amendment. can be very short. However, they will then at least be part of the process and there will not be the potential for them not to be involved, which would severely Baroness Worthington: My Lords, I thank the Minister weaken the level of information and knowledge that for her response although, again, I am not wholly local planning officers have. reassured. Particularly, one of her final comments served to illustrate why there is a level of distrust in the I shall leave it there. I am sure that we will return to current approach. Put simply, if you leave it to the this on Report but, at this stage, I am happy to beg operators to do everything on a voluntary basis, including leave to withdraw the amendment. paying for all of this, where is your reassurance that it is done to the correct standards? Obviously, a profit Amendment 95ZBM withdrawn. motive drives this. Let us not try and beat about the bush. This is about not UK sovereignty of energy but Amendments 95ZBN and 95ZBP not moved. shareholders and people making money. If you ask them to pay for monitoring, they will do monitoring in Amendment 95ZBQ the best way they think fit. That may well be simply a handheld device or the very minimal level of monitoring, Moved by Baroness Worthington which will not be good enough to establish whether we 95ZBQ: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— have a problem, either in terms of establishing the “Application of emissions limit duty baseline or keeping on monitoring against it. In Schedule 4 to the Energy Act 2013 (application and modification of emissions limit duty), after paragraph Baroness Verma: Of course, the Environment Agency 1(1)(b)(ii) insert— has to be satisfied. As the noble Baroness is aware, it is “(iii) substantial pollution abatement equipment dealing among the toughest of the regulators we have. with oxides of sulphur, oxides of nitrogen, heavy metal emissions or particles is fitted to the generating station.”” Baroness Worthington: Absolutely, but the noble Baroness will also be aware that it is under quite Baroness Worthington: On to another topic, although considerable pressure in terms of its budget. This is an a related one. Many of us in this room today spent a additional new task that it is being asked to perform good deal of time last year working on the Energy but is it being given the budget to do it properly? Bill. That received Royal Assent and passed into law and we are now working through the detail. One Baroness Verma: Again, I apologise for intervening aspect of the suite of measures brought in under the but I should like to reassure the noble Baroness that Energy Act was an environmental performance standard. the Environment Agency has reassured us that it has This was to be applied to new installations of large-scale adequate resources. generation and would bring in a limit on the amount of CO2 per kilowatt that could be emitted by substations. In effect, it ruled out the building of new coal stations Baroness Worthington: Then perhaps my anecdotal without CCS. point about the money being asked for in order to do We had a good old debate about that and noble the very best in laser monitoring is not true. Perhaps Lords may remember that we sought to amend that we can have some more correspondence about that legislation to address what we considered to be quite a before Report. serious loophole. That was that, in applying these I will not dwell on this for too long. I think it is fine performance standards to new coal, there was a danger to say that we are going to take a risk-based approach that old coal, which is less efficient, older and less but exactly how are we going to do this, what level of reliable, would escape from such a regulation and monitoring will be done and how are the Government people would then seek to continue in operation. going to keep monitoring all these voluntary approaches Essentially, companies owning these assets would continue that are being proposed—voluntary EIAs, for example? to sweat those assets for as long as they possibly could The industry can say that but are the Government use whatever method they could. We warned that monitoring whether applications are going in at a under the capacity mechanism—another key aspect of local authority level without EIAs? I have certainly the Energy Act—such old coal plant would be able to had representation from groups saying that they are receive generous amounts of money that would enable going in without publicly available impact assessments. retrofits to be carried out to keep the plant limping I hope that that is not the case but my sense is that the along and meet the international environmental Government are taking rather a lackadaisical approach regulations. Therefore, we would see coal not only in to this in thinking, “Well, if the industry says it’s doing the system for longer but operating at higher load it, it must be doing it, so that’s fine”. I am afraid that factors than would otherwise be the case. During the that is not how you engender trust. debate, we were reassured that this was not a necessary GC 63 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 64 provision and that everything was fine. Coal was going industry. You do not want a ¤45 per tonne price in the to be phased out and we should not worry our heads European trading scheme, but that is what it might about it. take to tip these stations out of the merit order at the Why have we retabled this amendment? We have moment. We have got to have a plan that sees a done so because, as we said before, half the projects transition away from old, inefficient plant which, by under the Infrastructure Bill are energy related. We fitting these filters, will become less efficient. I want to have to get a clear set of messages out to investors stress “less efficient”. These things are already sub-40% about what type of investment to pursue. Given that efficient. In fact, they are closer to 30% efficient. They we are trying to solve quite a complex set of challenges, are going to be knocking that efficiency down further including moving to a lower carbon economy, there when they fit these filters, and they will be able to base has to be a clear signal about the need for investment load if the economics stack up. in low carbon. Unfortunately, the combination of the That is not a situation we wanted to see coming out capacity market and the absence of any kind of EPS of the Energy Bill. We have an opportunity here to backstop on coal mean that there are conflicting signals. look at it again. We have tabled this amendment now simply to say that this is no longer theoretical. These auctions are happening now. We, as the Opposition, 5.30 pm do not want to inherit a problem in 2015 that has This amendment is timely because in the past couple come about because of the combination of the effects of weeks we saw the publication of the list of qualifying of the capacity market and the lack of an EPS. Let us stations applying for contracts under the capacity take this opportunity. Let us revisit this. I am very mechanism. As we warned, a considerable chunk of much looking forward to hearing the Minister and old coal is applying for three-year contracts. The other noble Lords, who I am sure will remember significance of the three-year contract is that it indicates the debates we had and who perhaps took part in the a certain level of investment in those plants to keep votes on this issue which we ultimately won in the them running at higher load factors and, potentially, Lords, only to be overturned in the Commons. We for longer periods. In total, 8 gigawatts of old coal said there was a problem. I think the evidence now is have come forward. Of it, 2 gigawatts already have that there is a problem. We need to take a backstop filters fitted to meet the European standards and policy to address it, otherwise we will be remiss and 6 gigawatts are proposing to undertake investments to will not be giving the signals that investors need to meet those standards. That is, potentially, 6 gigawatts ensure that we get the right investments in the long-term of coal that would otherwise be steadily running down future of the low-carbon economy. I beg to move. and closing to be replaced by cleaner plant. In addition to coal bidding for capacity, we see some new gas capacity. That is welcome. It is roughly Lord Jenkin of Roding: I listened to the noble 8 gigawatts in capacity—pretty much the same as the Baroness with great interest. I had not interpreted this old coal, as it happens. This is clearly an issue because, amendment as being directed at the question of whether overall, there is more capacity than we need. There is coal-fired plants should be able to apply under the more existing and proposed capacity than is needed to capacity mechanism. I, too, have been rather disturbed keep the lights on. In the auction that is about to take to see that as a possibility not only for coal-fired place, someone will not get what they want. Will it be stations in this country but for those in other countries the old coal stations or the gas? This is the question as well, which will be able to apply. If this is indeed the that we are now looking at. If it is the coal stations—which case, we need to look at this very carefully. exist, so the level of investment is necessarily lower What puzzles me is the connection with the amendment than building something new—we will see higher than that the noble Baroness has tabled. I understood that necessary emissions from those plants because they we had always been in favour of attaching abatement will be able to base load with their new investments. technologies to coal-fired stations that may have some When we set out on the Energy Bill, I do not think life left in them to reduce nitrogen oxide, sulphur we thought that its result would be a huge upgrading dioxide and other toxic gases. The noble Baroness is of coal capacity, but that is potentially what we are right to say that it puts up the price; a very good seeing. In the discussions over the summer, this was example of that is the difficulties that Drax has been theoretical. We said there was a problem, the Government having over recent years, where abatement plants were said there was not, and so we carried on. This is no put in years ago. For the life of me, I find it very longer theoretical. These stations have come into the difficult to understand why attaching that sort of capacity market, the plans are now being enacted, and plant to an existing power station should necessarily we do not have a policy to address the emissions from be an occasion for the exercise of the powers under the these stations. I think the sensible way forward is to Energy Act, to which she refers—a question of abatement look at this again. of the emissions limit. Perhaps the fault is mine. The Things have changed since we debated them in the amendment is one that I had not studied before, so I summer. The price of coal is falling, making the price listened to her with great interest. Bearing in mind that you need to switch from coal to gas ever higher. Just to we have always encouraged the addition of abatement say, “We’re going to use emissions trading”, is not plant to coal-fired power stations, I would have thought going to cut it. The emissions trading scheme does not that to make it a trigger in the further reduction in deliver the prices that you get to switch from gas to carbon emissions would be counterproductive. I see coal, and nor would you want it to because that is a the noble Baroness shaking her head at me; it may be broad-based measure that applies to a huge swathe of that I have completely misunderstood her purpose. GC 65 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 66

Lord Teverson: My Lords, when I saw this amendment, A number of things were not clear during the I thought that it looked remarkably familiar. It took debate on the Energy Bill and when it passed, including me back to the trauma of four years of the Energy the exact way in which the capacity mechanism would Bill, and the White Papers before it. However, I am work and who would be eligible. Some of that has become actually very pleased to see it because it was an important clearer with the regulations that have gone through. principle of an amendment that we tabled at the time. We now know which plants are being put in as a To explain this a little more from where I stand, this is capacity mechanism; it includes some pretty old coal one of the areas where white is black and black is plants. Plants that companies such as EDF gave a white in coal terms. Making coal plants far better for clear indication, seven or eight years ago, would close the world in their nitrous and sulphur emissions, which about two or three years from now are now being we all want, means that they can escape the rundown rolled forward. The way to square that would have that is caused by the European directives that mean been for the performance standard to apply to old coal that these coal stations have to go. The way in which as it does to new coal plants, but it does not. the emission performance standards were written into While the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is right that we the Energy Bill means, effectively, that they have a free encourage all plants to fit this abatement of sulphur et life up to about 2044, or something like that—if you cetera, we have not applied the new emission standard can keep them going—when we can change the emissions in the Energy Act to all this old coal plant. As I performance standards and they lose their grandfather understand it, the purport of the amendment is to rights. That is the issue. ensure that they will be treated in the same way as new I have not gone into this matter in the great detail plants. That would change the economics of coal. that the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, has, but I The other thing that has changed since the debate can see that there are ways by which being able to on the Energy Bill is that it was assumed at that time participate in the capacity mechanism gives enough by some of the modellers that, as was originally intended, financial stability for the energy companies to take on there would be a ratcheting up of the carbon price the investment that would enable them to comply with floor. That would also have altered the relative price of the large plant combustion directive and its successors keeping on old coal, to the detriment of the coal and so continue to be high carbon emitters in this industry. Of course, within a few weeks of the Energy economy for many years to come. That has to be a bad Bill receiving Royal Assent, the Chancellor announced thing. I will not go all the way through the arguments that we are no longer going to ratchet up the carbon that we had in previous debates but, clearly, it is bad in price floor. Leaving aside the principled arguments terms of emissions. Coal is not good in that regard. I about the use of a carbon price floor, the effect of that am not absolutely against coal being part of the is that the economics do not look the same as they did capacity mechanism. I would prefer it if it was not, but when we were discussing that Bill. Clearly they were I do not think that it is absolutely fundamental. What expressed as looking that way by the Government. As worries me is that, by investing to comply with European the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, said, it could mean that directives, we then have them for a long time into old coal plant could be running for decades as a result the future, which we would not otherwise. That is bad, of the emissions performance standards not fully applying but, at a time when an argument has emanated from the and the abolition of the carbon floor price ratcheting Treasury wishing gas to be particularly strong, it works up. against gas investment as well. That is investment that The amendment is intended to ensure that that is the Government has rightly said is important for medium- not the case. As the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, has term fuel strategy and clearly is half the level of carbon said, the immediate effect is to make our energy emissions. supply more dependent on old coal and less attractive Without going through all the arguments again, to investment in new gas. Therefore, the higher the level this sort of amendment gives a double win for the of old coal that qualifies under the capacity mechanism, Government on greater incentives for gas investment the less investment there will be in new, efficient gas in the medium term and on meeting its carbon targets generation. more certainly as time goes on. I hope that the Minister In all terms, the economics have been made more and her colleagues will find a way to realise those difficult. The environmental cost of carbon emissions objectives, which are from both sides of the coalition, could be substantial. I therefore hope that the Government by looking at this very carefully. at least understand part of that argument and recognise that they have to do something along the lines my noble Lord Whitty: My Lords, I support the amendment friend is arguing in support of these amendments. and my noble friend. The arguments she made during the Energy Bill have come to pass—I do not think that 5.45 pm Bill lasted for four years, as the noble Lord, Lord Lord Oxburgh (CB): My Lords, briefly, I support Teverson, said, but it felt like it. The reality is that the thinking behind the amendment. I have two points. while in America the arrival of shale gas has driven There has been significant discussion of the gas price out coal, to the benefit of carbon emissions—this and the coal price. One should bear in mind that both links back to previous debates—it has also had the of these could go up and down fairly dramatically. It is knock-on effect that the world price of coal has gone quite likely that the shale gas price in the US will rise, down. Therefore, the economics of coal in the rest of simply because the majority of the shale gas in the US the world now look much more attractive. The economics resource is not economically exploitable at the present of continuing to run coal-fired stations look dramatically price of between $3 and $4. This is not of great more attractive. importance, except to emphasise that coal and gas can GC 67 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 68 change. It is important that we see the long-term the decarbonisation of the electricity system. Were perspective here and that we do not legislate now on this to happen, the need for more generation capacity the basis of how these prices look today. to be built earlier than we currently project could I am not sure that the wording that we have here is result in an increased cost to consumers. The noble right, but the Government need to come back to the Baroness may be prepared to risk imposing such House and let us know how they are actually going to unnecessary cost but I am not. The argument in recent meet their obligations under the Climate Change Act months has been how consumers feel about the cost of in the light of the elevation of the carbon price and the energy. other considerations to which noble Lords have drawn I think there is almost unanimous consensus on the attention. need substantially to decarbonise electricity generation by 2030. There is similar consensus that there will be Baroness Verma: My Lords, I am grateful to the little or no role left for unabated coal generation in noble Baroness for tabling these amendments. I know future. However, we continue to believe that applying that many of us heard the well rehearsed arguments the EPS as proposed by the amendment is unnecessary during the passage of the Energy Bill. I agree with the and potentially a risky intervention to the market. It is noble Lord, Lord Whitty; I do not think it was four our other EMR policies that will work to deliver the years, although it probably felt like four years. Whatever, outcomes that we all wish to see but without risking we all got a lot of grey hairs from it—I remember that. our security of supply and ensuring that we are able to The measures in the Bill and our electricity market give consumers energy at as low a cost as possible. reforms have demonstrated that they are already working The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, asked why we allow and starting to deliver new investment in electricity existing coal stations to participate in the capacity infrastructure: a clear demonstration of industry market. We do it so that the market ensures security of confidence. In April, we announced the allocation of electricity supply at the least cost to the consumer. It is the first contracts for difference to eight renewables important to reiterate that all existing coal plants still projects. These projects included offshore wind, coal- need to meet their environmental commitments and to-biomass conversions and a dedicated biomass plant will be subject to the carbon price floor. I assure the with combined heat and power. By 2020, these projects Committee that it is also about the fact that we have alone will be able to provide up to £12 billion of seen 7 gigawatts of new gas plant come forward seeking private sector investment, supporting 8,500 jobs, and capacity agreement, which indicates that the capacity could add a further 4.5 gigawatts of low-carbon generation market is bringing on new investment. capacity to Britain’s energy mix. This builds further on I am not convinced that we need to revisit this the major growth in the UK’s renewable electricity argument. I know that the noble Baroness is absolutely sector that we have seen, with capacity more than committed to raising this issue again but I hope that I doubling since 2010 and with renewables now providing am able to convince her that the steps we are taking in around 15% of our electricity. I wanted to point that the broader argument are ensuring that we are able to out before I came back to the noble Baroness’s deliver at a cost value to the consumer and that amendment. security of supply remains, and that we remain committed We recognise that the intent behind the Energy Bill to bringing on as much low-carbon energy as possible amendment was to achieve outcomes broadly consistent through the reforms that we have made in the Energy with those to which the Government are firmly committed. Act. I hope that on that basis she is able to withdraw The potential uncertainties of applying the EPS in the the amendment. way proposed by the amendment, on balance, pose risks that the Government should be unprepared to Baroness Worthington: My Lords, I am grateful to take. the Minister for her reply. I am particularly grateful to The noble Baroness has already helpfully explained the noble Lords who contributed. It is certainly true that existing coal-fired power stations will need to that the noble Lords, Lord Teverson and Lord Whitty, invest in fitting equipment in order to meet the explained what the amendment does more clearly than requirements of the EU industrial emissions directive. I was able to do. For the avoidance of any doubt, we That directive succeeds the large combustion plants were simply seeking to limit the amount of time that directive and sets much more stringent limits on emissions old coal-fired power stations could run so that they of oxides of sulphur and nitrogen from 1 January 2016. did not provide base load power. That is the purpose However, I recognise that there have been a number of behind it. It would not mean that they should shut or developments since last year as we have set about that they should not upgrade; it would simply mean implementing our electricity market reforms. that we had a mechanism for preventing them from I do not share the noble Baroness’s analysis of the base loading and thereby displacing otherwise clean current position or her prediction of the future. I am capacity. therefore not convinced that in the case of this amendment It is true that one of the cheapest ways of reaching there is a need to revisit the conclusion reached by a lower carbon intensity is to run your gas stations both Houses on this point less than a year ago. I do first and your coal stations as peaking plant; that is not think that I want to go back and rehearse the just incontrovertible. Every kilowatt hour produced arguments made during the debate on the Energy Bill with gas produces half the emissions compared with a that led to the rejection of the amendment previously. coal station. In the act of upgrading these stations, They highlighted the risk that it could lead to a those kilograms of CO2 per kilowatt hour will increase. scenario where coal plants closed earlier than might That is because it takes energy to run the filters. So we otherwise be necessary to most cost-effectively achieve are taking an already inefficient station, making it less GC 69 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 70

[BARONESS WORTHINGTON] lawmaking and certainly, if there is a change of efficient and more carbon intensive, all apparently in Government, we would wish to set a decarbonisation the interests of keeping the lights on, when, in fact, we target as soon as possible to clear up the mess, and have seen that far more capacity than is needed is give the signal to investors that this is the target we are coming forward. This coal will displace investment in aiming for them to meet and that that is how they gas if that gas turns out to be more expensive. Therefore, should make their investments. The provision in the it does not deliver on security of supply, and it does Act is inappropriate, and this amendment seeks to not deliver on cost-effectiveness because it forces us to delete the part that restricts the setting of a decarbonisation do more of the more expensive things. We will have to target and ties the hands of future Governments. It decarbonise in other ways if we do not close coal, and has no place in the Energy Act. that will be expensive. It is about cost-effectiveness, If it is true that the Government’s intention is to use and that is why we want this amendment. the Act to decarbonise, why would you then restrict The Government do not have a coal policy. They do the decarbonisation target from being set? It makes no not have a plan for phasing out coal. Everyone can say sense. Let us be clear that the Minister rightly pointed fine words about it but coal stations are in the ownership to some investments coming into renewables. That is and hands of the private sector. If they can make a being driven by a legally binding European target that profit from running these plants, they will. The expires in 2020. That is just around the corner in Government put nothing into the Act dealing with energy investment terms. There is absolutely nothing EMR that stopped old coal—in fact, the reverse. They in the Government’s policies that means we will continue have created a new incentive, and by allowing firms to to do renewables—nothing, at least, that is legally apply for three-year contracts the Government are established. If we see the continuation of opposition to paying them to upgrade. Eight gigawatts of coal is a all renewables on the basis that they are more expensive— lot of capacity. Eight gigawatts of new gas would when, in fact, their costs are falling rapidly—we could engender a large amount of lower-carbon capacity see that whole industry being undermined and stopped, that would be more flexible and, in the long run, post 2020, in the absence of any other target at a cheaper and more reliable. European level. We listened with great care to the arguments put Now, I do not happen to agree with targets being forward in the previous debate. The world has changed needed at a European level on renewables specifically, since then, not least—as my noble friend Lord Whitty but we need decarbonisation targets. We need a clear pointed out—because policies have changed. The plan and to create the right investment climate so that Government took the opportunity in the Budget, shortly people can make the right decisions—not the wrong after Royal Assent, to freeze the carbon price floor, ones. This amendment is simply to allow us to do that. which was a key defence mechanism. I shall not go on Should we have a Labour Government in 2015, we are any further. This is a fundamental flaw in the Energy absolutely clear that we would set a decarbonisation Act. I would like to revisit it, and I am not persuaded target. We seek to move this amendment so as not to have by the arguments that have been made. However, at our hands tied by what is a very inappropriate piece of this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. legislation in the previous Energy Act. I beg to move.

Amendment 95ZBQ withdrawn. Lord Teverson: Since we are in Committee, why Amendment 95ZC had been withdrawn from the Marshalled did the noble Baroness not just delete the whole of List. subsection (5) altogether? Baroness Worthington: That is a good question. In Amendment 95ZCA the interests of taking out the most annoying part of Moved by Baroness Worthington the Act, we restrict ourselves to simply removing the part that restricts us in the timing of when a 95ZCA: Before Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— decarbonisation order could be set. That is the reason. “Decarbonisation target range In section 1(5) of the Energy Act 2013 (decarbonisation 6pm target range), omit all the words after “2030”.” Baroness Verma: My Lords, as I made clear during Baroness Worthington: My Lords, it is approaching previous discussions on the Energy Bill—now the 6 pm and we have been here for some time, so I do not Energy Act—a decision to exercise this power is absolutely propose to speak for long on this amendment. However, not something that should be rushed into or done in it relates to another important aspect of the Energy isolation. We had some very long discussions around Act that we need to revisit. The Act’s first sections are this target so I will not go back and repeat those. But about the need for decarbonisation. Indeed, that was such a target would have a significant implication for the justification for all the measures that followed; we the power sector, the so-called “non-traded” sector, were about to embark on a process of decarbonisation, for consumers and the wider economy. It is therefore which was why we needed contracts for difference and vital to understand fully, based on evidence, whether a to make all the interventions that we did. However, those target represents the best approach to meeting our sections are very oddly worded and actually prevent a economy-wide carbon budgets cost-effectively and, if decarbonisation target from being set until criteria are so, at what level it should be set. met. In effect, rather than setting a decarbonisation It is for these reasons that the Government have target, the Act prevents one from being set and ties the maintained that the right time to consider whether to hands of a future Government. That is not good set such a target is in 2016. That is the point at which, GC 71 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 72 in line with the requirements of the Climate Change crossings (Cm 8711), and which is substantially based on Act, we will undertake extensive analysis to set the the draft Level Crossings Bill prepared by the Law level of the fifth carbon budget in law which will cover Commission and the Scottish Law Commission.” the year 2030. This will allow us to consider the target in the context of the whole economy and what is Lord Berkeley (Lab): My Lords, I will also speak to required to ensure that the UK not only meets its 2050 Amendment 100. These amendments are nothing to emissions target but also remains competitive with do with fracking. They take us back to infrastructure other member states. In 2016 we will also have a better of the road and rail sort. This amendment came about understanding of how the market will respond to the because, quite conveniently, the Law Commissions did reforms that this House debated in the passage of the a study on the legal situation of level crossings. I Energy Act and a clearer idea of EU and global climate believe they took about seven years to do that, so they change ambition. It is about timing. We laid out very must have done it extremely thoroughly. They produced clearly that 2016, in line with the fifth carbon budget, an excellent report about this time last year which is the right time for this. I suspect that the noble made a number of recommendations and, very helpfully, Baroness and I will not agree here but I hope that at included a draft Bill to implement them. this point she will withdraw her amendment. The purpose of it all was because, as we will see, some of this legislation goes back to the first railway. Baroness Worthington: My Lords, I do not propose Some 150 years or so ago, there were of course no to detain us any longer on this. I listened to that response. internal combustion engines and if there were level I sincerely hope that whoever is in Government will set crossings they were probably to take horses and carts a challenging decarbonisation target in 2016. It would across. It is very different now when in some places, as be better if we let the next Government make that noble Lords will know, the pressure on level crossings for decision but I am very happy to withdraw at this stage. access is pretty extreme whether it is from the railways or the roads, and particularly in urban areas. When Amendment 95ZCA withdrawn. the railways want to run more trains, they find that they cannot because people complain too much that Clause 28: Consequential provision the gates are shut too often and vice versa. Obviously, the solution is to build a bridge or tunnel but that does Amendment 95ZD not really go down very well in urban areas either. Moved by Baroness Kramer This report by the Law Commissions really deserve some detailed consideration. I tabled these amendments 95ZD: Clause 28, page 28, line 23, leave out “this Part” and in July and the Government had not responded so I insert “any of the following provisions of this Part— was tempted to try to get a response by tabling the (a) section 26 or 27 or Schedule 5; Law Commissions’ draft, which was about 50 pages long. (b) section (Maximising economic recovery of UK petroleum) The noble Baroness was quite pleased when I withdrew or (Levy on holders of certain energy industry licences) from that. However, it has resulted—we can debate or Schedule (The Licensing Levy); whether it is a result or a coincidence—in the noble (c) any of sections (Petroleum and geothermal energy: right Baroness kindly sending to me and colleagues the to use deep-level land) to (Interpretation).” government response to this report, and putting a Amendment 95ZD agreed. copy in the Library. It is an excellent response, so my purpose in moving this amendment now is to see Amendment 95A not moved. whether we can press the Government a bit more for a timetable and to discuss one or two of the issues on which I think they might not agree with the Law Amendment 95B Commissions. Moved by Baroness Kramer One issue which covers the whole thing is whether 95B: Clause 28, page 28, leave out line 25 and insert “the level crossings should be subject to the Health and Safety application of any enactment (but, in the case of an Act, only if at Work etc. Act, as most similar activities are. It may the Act was passed before the end of the Session in which this Act come up on Report when we start talking about the is passed).” strategic road company, which the Minister kindly Amendment 95B agreed. gave some of us a briefing on yesterday, and the comparison of safety relationships between road and rail. Clause 28, as amended, agreed. But on level crossings, the Government have moved a good way in accepting many of the recommendations to make the thing simpler. I do not know how many of Amendment 96 the Committee have managed to read these 28 pages Moved by Lord Berkeley overnight but perhaps I could mention a couple of 96: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— issues. If your Lordships have not, it does not really matter. “Part 4A Level crossings For me, if the Government went ahead with their Level crossing bill recommendations it would be 90% good and I hope Within 12 months of the day on which this Act is passed, that they will. They are quite right to query again how Her Majesty’s Government shall introduce into Parliament much this should apply to heritage railways, especially a bill to give effect to the recommendations of the Law when there are volunteers. That needs taking with a bit Commission and the Scottish Law Commission on level of a pinch of salt because dealing with a level crossing GC 73 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 74

[LORD BERKELEY] should get rid of legislation going back to 1830-something. on a 100 miles per hour railway is not the same as Now is the time to do it. With that quick introduction, dealing with one on a 25 miles per hour railway, so I beg to move. they have done well to question that. I mentioned the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act; we could go Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con): My Lords, I through that again. support the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and in particular It is a good idea to get rid of all this old legislation. his request for the Minister to consider a timetable. I I am told that there are 800 Acts applying to level will not pretend that I have the knowledge of the crossings. Network Rail has to deal with all these railways that he has, but I have worked with the Law things and if we started talking about how much all Commission on a number of its proposals and Bills. It these changes might cost, I get the impression from is punctilious about avoiding political controversy and Network Rail that a lot of money would be saved— exceptionally thorough in its consultation; as the noble especially on lawyers, which is always a good thing. Lord pointed out it has been involved in this in the On whether the Office of Rail Regulation should seven years of consultation. It therefore does an introduce codes of practice, I think that it should but exceptionally valuable job in updating, tidying up and it is not really the end of the world if it does not. But spring cleaning our legislation. on the regulations, I worry about what happens when There is, however, a danger attached to that, which it comes to consultation between road users, planners, is that the Law Commission regards legislation proposals highways authorities and rail people, and whether the that it has brought forward that have not been Government have got it quite right as to who has the implemented within a certain period as needing to go last word on how discussions will take place as to who back for further consultation because it needs to make gets priority. That needs a lot more consultation but it sure that the public mood and the facts have not is still in the report. As I said, the legislation goes back moved on. I support the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, in to 1839. I shall not read out all the different bits of this because I hope my noble friend will realise that if legislation because it will take too long but this certainly this matter is left on the shelf, the Law Commission needs further work. will say that it is no longer fit for purpose and will The closures need to be made simpler. Network need to start consultation all over again to see what Rail has told me that it costs a great deal of money, has happened in the intervening period since the last time and effort to get closures. Some people will debate consultation was carried out. whether Network Rail should be allowed to make I support what the noble Lord is suggesting and I closures, but when you look at the railway safety hope that my noble friend will be able to act as statistics, level crossing accidents come very high up Dyno-Rod for departmental inertia to make sure that the list of causes of accidents—leaving suicides aside, it is brought forward quickly to avoid having to go which are slightly different. As we try to make our round the whole course again. railways more efficient, run faster and more frequently, we need to look at protecting the public by making some of these closures. I hope that the Minister will 6.15 pm accept that they can go ahead. I am not going to Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): My Lords, I will through any more, particularly of the Scottish ones. briefly intervene, not because I have the expertise of We can possibly leave those to the Scottish Parliament my noble friend Lord Berkeley; if he believes that he if we get some devolution, which is another issue. may be pushing at an open door as regards the Minister’s In her covering letter, which is very helpful, the response, that is very good news indeed. My qualification Minister said: for speaking about level crossings is that I live on the “I have … asked officials to develop, as a matter of urgency border of Hertfordshire and Essex, in one of the flattest and no later than the end of 2014, an action plan which will parts of the country, the Lea Valley. The railway line outline where we believe further work is required and how this there is plagued by the problem that it has a very large will be taken forward”. number of level crossings of all kinds, from the latest That is very good and I welcome it, but there are state-of-the-art crossings in some parts, to those where always two sides to these things. Perhaps the Minister people open a little gate and run for it, dragging the can answer either tonight or in a letter how many of dog behind—because they usually have a recalcitrant these changes actually need legislation—primary animal as well—and take risks getting across. Incidents legislation, secondary legislation or none at all? The on the line are constant. Law Commissions proposed one great big Bill but it I know that my dear friends at RoSPA—the Royal does not have to be done that way. I worry after the Society for the Prevention of Accidents—indicate that next election. Which Government would want to bring there are only nine deaths per year and that limited in a level crossing Bill in their first session? They numbers of people are injured. We have 6,000 level would not because they would have other priorities. crossings, and they are not all on the line that I know Therefore a timetable would be good showing what so well, but as my noble friend Lord Berkeley has could and could not be done. We could then start a emphasised, there is no doubt that because of the process of discussion about some of the issues in this improved efficiency of the railway line—which is not government response, which would be very helpful. It just for local stations but is also the Stansted line, and really is important. It will save Network Rail a great which therefore supplies an important service to Stansted deal of money and it will help avoid some of the —very fast trains cause greater problems when you disputes that take place between road and rail users have some crossings which to all of us look exceedingly and their operators. Everyone must agree that we casual. GC 75 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 76

There was a tragic case only two weeks ago, when apply to level crossings. I did not even know that we one of the most experienced local cyclists—someone had 10,000 Acts. That is the most extraordinary figure who had travelled all over the world on his bike and and it says it all. Indeed, that complexity is the reason raised lots of money for charities, who rode his bike all why we, or, rather, the Government of the day, requested the time and was very advanced in years—decided the Law Commission and the Scottish Law Commission that he could beat the train. Of course, this happened to undertake a review in 2007. The review was initiated on one of our crossings, which is a bit posher than in 2008. I take this opportunity to place on record my some, with an automatic gate that comes down on one thanks to the Law Commission for the tremendous side, and an automatic bar that comes down on the amount of hard work which has gone into developing other side. However, if you are prepared to take the their report, and recommendations which were published risk, you can wiggle between the two, and this poor in September 2013. The examination of 10,000 Acts is fellow took the risk and got hit by a fast train. demanding work. We need to address this issue. We all know that with The Committee will appreciate that this is a highly so many crossings, it is quite unrealistic to expect the complex area which touches on a wide range of issues problems to be resolved overnight. We are also aware including railways, highways, health and safety, planning, at the present time that the whole responsibility falls land and criminal law. The Law Commission’s 86 on Network Rail. The costs and responsibility for recommendations represent the culmination of five safety all rest on Network Rail, while it is quite clear years of investigation. Following legal and policy analysis, that other users create so many of the problems. That the Department for Transport has published its response. is why, at the very least, there should be some sharing I apologise that noble Lords have not had a little more out of the costs where it can be established that the time to read it. I suspect that the noble Lord, Lord local authority responsible for the road access may Berkeley, was always going to be the most dedicated well not have played its part as fully as it ought to have reader and I congratulate him on going through it. The done. response indicates which of those 86 recommendations I am therefore looking forward to the largely positive we intend to accept, reject or implement in a modified reply from the Minister; it is an absolute delight to format. anticipate such a response. I emphasise that we were somewhat disappointed that there was nothing in the We accept the case for reform which the Law Queen’s Speech about a Bill, given that there was a Commission has presented and have accepted the small number of Bills—and rather pot pourri Bills as majority of their recommendations. However, in some this one is to a certain extent—covering a range of key areas—for example, closures and the application issues. We were concerned that there was nothing of the Health and Safety at Work Act, as the noble about a level crossing, but I am very glad that my Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned—the Department for noble friend has raised the issue with this amendment, Transport’s response indicates that we believe we need and I look forward to the Minister’s response. additional policy and legal consideration. This arises very much as a result of talking to the industry. The Committee will understand that some level crossings The Minister of State, Department for Transport are site specific and that that creates additional complexity. (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Lords, I am very grateful However, we believe that we have to pursue these to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for raising this issue. issues because in some cases there may be alternative I know that he speaks also for the noble Lord, Lord proposals that work rather better. Bradshaw, who has had to leave. I welcome the opportunity to discuss this matter. It is an area in On closures, the department needs to be convinced which the Committee rightly takes a very keen interest. that the process recommended by the Law Commission As we all know, the UK has the best level crossing would shorten timescales and cut costs, which it is safety record in Europe. We want to ensure that it is meant to do. We need convincing that that is what it maintained and, of course, to see that it is improved. would do. Stakeholders from both road and rail have We are absolutely not complacent about level crossing voiced concerns about the possible implications and safety. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, rightly pointed have pointed out to us areas where there is lack of out that, as we run more trains and operate many of clarity. We need to explore those further. our lines at full capacity, the issue becomes more I very much understand that this is a probing acute. He mentioned that the relevant cost fell on amendment but I am told by those who understand Network Rail. I can understand why people say that procedure that it is a real oddity to put in a piece of other road users should pay for the provision we are legislation a clause which would legally commit a discussing. I do not want to fight over who is going to future Government to introduce a complete Bill. Although pay. When it comes to taking a decision on a closure, I know that is not the purpose of the amendment, we need to move forward in an accelerated fashion. technically there is an issue there. I should also draw Therefore, I will accept a little injustice in order to the Committee’s attention to the fact that the Law make sure that we are really efficient when we need to Commission’s recommendations contain significant be. I do not think that is what is inhibiting the system devolution elements which we must and will discuss although I take the point that the noble Lord makes. further and reach agreement on with the Scottish and This amendment is about the law surrounding level Welsh Governments before implementation could proceed. crossings. At present, the legislative framework As I said, we are also aware of stakeholder concerns surrounding the management and operation of level about some of the recommendations. They must be crossings is, frankly, antiquated and complex. I have addressed because this is highly practical, operational been passed a note informing me that 10,000 Acts stuff and we have to get it right. GC 77 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 78

[BARONESS KRAMER] (d) the form in which the data should be presented; We want to move quickly, but we recognise that (e) the persons that should receive a copy of the data. there is work to be done, and we are trying not to set (3) The regulations may make different provision for different ourselves an artificial deadline. However, I am very regulators where necessary. concerned that this does not get kicked into the long (4) The Treasury must scrutinise data provided under subsection (1) grass—as, I suspect, are all of your Lordships who and assess— have spoken. (a) the cumulative impact of infrastructure spending on the We have said that we will come forward with an cost of products for consumers; action plan. We will produce it by the end of 2014. It (b) the affordability of any anticipated increases in the cost will be an outline of where we think further work is of products for consumers, taking into account factors required and how it can be taken forward as a priority. other than infrastructure spending that are also likely I point out that that action plan will address some of significantly to impact the cost of products; and the specific issues raised. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, (c) differences in affordability between different groups of asked whether most of this requires legislation. consumers, if any. (5) The Treasury must publish data provided under subsection Unfortunately, it does, but we will look for those areas (1) and the assessment made under subsection (4) in such manner where we do not need legislation, because that will as it reasonably deems appropriate. give us a little flexibility. There are also additional (6) The Treasury must take into account the assessment in complications that flow from our need to get the Law subsection (4) in making decisions about the extent, prioritisation Commission to consider whether it can simplify some or timing of infrastructure spending. of its recommendations. The action plan will cover (7) In this section— that issue as well. (a) “consumer” means any business, individual or household I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley can of individuals that purchases a product or products; agree that this is the best way forward; I hope that he (b) “product” means a good or service the provision of will feel comfortable to withdraw his amendment, which is regulated by a regulator; because it seems to me that we are all pretty much on (c) “a regulator” means any of—and “the regulators” means the same page on this important issue. all of them.” (i) the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation; Lord Berkeley: I am very grateful to the Minister (ii) the Office of Communications; for a comprehensive reply. It was a probing amendment, (iii) the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets; and one would not want the text to commit a future (iv) the Office of Rail Regulation; Government. She has outlined many of the challenges. (v) the Water Industry Commission for Scotland; and I am sorry that I got the number of Bills wrong by a (vi) the Water Services Regulation Authority, factor of about 12, which is pretty bad. If we can have and “the regulators” means all of them.” a timetable, with all these issues addressed and listed, including issues relating to Scotland, Wales, the EU and whatever, that would be extremely helpful. If the Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I beg to move the noble Baroness can get the agreement of Network new clause standing in my name. To begin with, perhaps Rail and, we hope, all the train operators and everyone I may say that I was very grateful for the opportunity to else, that is a major step forward. I again thank the talk to my noble friend Lady Kramer about this and Minister and the Law Commission, because it has got for the help that the department was able to give me. the issue on the agenda. Let us hope that we can see it driven to a conclusion in less than the seven years that As the heading suggests, this is about the impact of it has taken to produce its report. On that note, I beg infrastructure spending on costs for consumers. That leave to withdraw the amendment. is an issue that has achieved a rising level of importance. My noble friend Lady Verma said in an earlier debate that the effect of rising prices on consumers is of Amendment 96 withdrawn. growing concern in the country. There is wide support across society for increased Amendment 96ZA investment in infrastructure, but the question of how Moved by Lord Jenkin of Roding much of the cost will fall to be borne by consumers is, I have to say, a great deal less certain. The new clause 96ZA: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— is aimed to get the Treasury to lift the veil, as it were, “Part 4A so that we know more about what it will cost consumers. Impact of infrastructure spending on costs for consumers That this is primarily a matter for Treasury Ministers Provision of impact data rests on two facts. First, the responsibility for projected (1) The Treasury may by regulations make provision for the infrastructure investment is spread right across Whitehall regulators to provide data, in a manner prescribed by the regulations, and covers a great many departments. The costs fall to about the anticipated impact of infrastructure spending on the be met in many different ways: investment by private cost of products for consumers. companies, local authorities; government departments; (2) Regulations made under subsection (1) may prescribe— and, no doubt, other ways as well. In most areas, (a) the type of infrastructure spending about which data regulators also have a key role, but it is only the must be provided; Treasury that can cover the whole field, bring it all (b) the nature of the data to be provided; together and assess the impact on the cost of products (c) the methodology for collating and manipulating the for consumers. That is what subsection (1) of this new data, including assumptions that should be made; clause provides. GC 79 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 80

6.30 pm They spelt out the reasons for that, and I have no The second reason is that ministerial responsibility doubt that my noble friend will refer to them and to rests very firmly in the hands of Treasury Ministers, the difficulty of the whole subject; how robust or particularly in the hands of my noble friend Lord meaningful an aggregate affordability analysis can be Deighton, the Commercial Secretary to the Treasury. and so on. He is in charge of the specialist unit, Infrastructure However, there was an extra paragraph at the end UK, which is an agency within the Treasury. When I from which I drew a little more comfort. The asked my noble friend’s department who was going to Government’s response at paragraph 3.4 states: respond to this new clause today, I was not altogether surprised that my noble friend Lady Kramer would do “Nonetheless, the Government agrees that there is scope to it, but I was even less surprised when I was told that improve understanding of affordability in this important area and will continue to work with the regulators on these issues, she would be doing it on the basis of a brief from the including”— Treasury. I hope I am not doing her an injustice. It will be her response that we hear. this is what really pricked up my ears— I say straightaway that this new clause is not breaking “through the UK Regulators Network which is considering new ground. In 2013, the National Audit Office published affordability as a key element of its work-plan”. an interesting report, Infrastructure Investment: the I had not heard of this network and I therefore thought Impact on Consumer Bills. It spelled out the purpose it right to consult the regulator I know best—namely, of the study: Ofgem. I had a very good meeting with its representatives “The report focuses on infrastructure investment that domestic last week. It turned out that that paragraph had consumers pay for through bills, with a specific focus on the virtually been written by Ofgem, so it knew what it energy, water and, to a lesser extent, telecoms sectors”. was talking about and the organisation was extremely It started with a number of key facts, saying: helpful. I was told that it is working through the newly “£310bn the estimated value of planned investment in UK formalised UK Regulators Network. Its aim is to infrastructure identified in the government’s 2012 National Infrastructure Plan … 67% of the £310 billion is expected to be provide an overview of approaches taken by regulators financed privately, and repaid through consumer bills in the to address, among other things, affordability issues. It energy, water and telecoms sectors. Unknown aggregate financial also aims to identify the extent of affordability pressures impact of planned infrastructure investment on consumer bills on consumers, primarily in the telecoms, energy and across all sectors”. water sectors. It will be paying particular attention to That sums up the problem very neatly. the impact on vulnerable groups of consumers—that I am tempted to quote at length from the report’s is, of course, the fuel poor. summary, but in the context of this new clause, I will When I discussed all this with my noble friend, I confine myself to just two central findings. Paragraph 16 was not altogether surprised to have sight a few hours says: later of the UKRN Memorandum of Understanding, “Government has made no assessment of the overall impact of infrastructure on future bills or whether those bills will be which I had not been aware of. It was published earlier affordable. Therefore government and regulators are taking decisions this year and it is a very interesting and important on behalf of consumers in the absence of full information about document which I have studied carefully. I shall come the situation for consumers”. back to that in a moment. I do not think anybody would regard that as a satisfactory I turn now to my proposed new clause. As I have state of affairs. The report’s first recommendation is, said, it is intended to write into the Bill the gist of the in Paragraph 21: recommendation of the NAO and the Public Accounts “The Treasury should ensure that there are mechanisms in Committee, which of course the Government have so place to assess the cumulative impact of infrastructure investment on consumer bills and the affordability implications, particularly far rejected. I should say at once that I am indebted to for low-income households”. the consumer organisation Which?, which has helped That sets out the problem very clearly. Not surprisingly, me with the drafting of this amendment. I also thank this report from the National Audit Office was taken the Public Bill Office for making sure that it is in order. up by the Public Accounts Committee in another When I first saw it, I had my doubts, but I have been place. Its fifth report was published in June, and the assured that with a few tweaks the office could ensure Government’s response followed very promptly. It was that it is in order, and I am grateful. Subsection (1) published on 1 July. The Government accepted three empowers the Treasury to introduce regulations to of the committee’s four main recommendations. They achieve the main intention. Subsection (2) defines the accepted the recommendations calling for the need to scope and form of the regulations. Subsection (4) lays factor in the impact of complexity and uncertainty an obligation on the Treasury to scrutinise the data when making or changing policy; calling on regulators and assess the impacts on consumer costs for different to pay closer attention to companies’ financial structures groups of consumers. Subsection (7) sets out the list of and to the standards of infrastructure providers; and, regulators whose industries are to be covered by the thirdly, calling on regulators to deliver a co-ordinated clause. approach to their joint working arrangements. I shall The Memorandum of Understanding throws useful follow that up a little later. light on how this might work. Perhaps I may quote There was one important recommendation on which briefly from it. Paragraph 2.1 talks about: the Government disagreed. It was the recommendation “Coherent and consistent economic regulation across sectors: that: we will give a clear joint view where cross-sector regulatory “HM Treasury should ensure that an assessment of the long-term agreement or consistency is needed and will ensure that our affordability of bills across the sectors is produced and published”. actions deal effectively with cross-sector issues”. GC 81 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 82

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] decision on whether it is efficient. If it is not, the ORR The next bullet point is headed: has a duty to reduce its requirement and to reduce its “Affordability and empowerment: we will work to understand costs while not affecting the efficiency of the operation. cross-sector issues related to affordability of services, and work As I said in a recent speech in your Lordships’ House, on consumer empowerment to ensure that consumers in regulated the ORR has already reduced Network Rail’s costs by markets have the information and other tools necessary to engage about 40% in 10 years. It is rightly intent to continue effectively in markets”. that trend with another 20% or 25%. Those are very important words. Further on it talks That is designed to make sure that the company is about something which has been close to my heart, as efficient and that, therefore, the customers, who largely my noble friend Lady Kramer will certainly remember— are the train operators, get the services at the least cost the “promotion of competition”. The noble Lord, and look after the interests of the customers. The Lord Berkeley and I, along with two other noble Lords, other thing that the regulator has to do is make sure moved two amendments at a critical stage of the that the company is properly financed so that it can Energy Bill to improve competition. deliver on its objectives. The UKRN states: “Promotion of competition in the interests of consumers:we will work, including with the CMA”— 6.45 pm the Competition and Markets Authority— One has to compare that with what Ofwat is or is “and through the UKCN, to improve the use of competition and not doing, in particular with the Thames tunnel, on regulatory levers where appropriate, making markets work better which I had an Oral Question today. Ofwat’s job to improve outcomes for consumers”. should be not only to make sure that the water companies It sets out its work programme in Annex 1. I will not are efficient and have the right financial structure and quote it all but it clearly refers to: assets to do the jobs that they are supposed to do but “Understanding affordability across sectors”, to look after the effect on consumers. In terms of Thames Water, I have to say that Ofwat has probably which is exactly what the Government said in the failed on both counts. In my view, it has not ensured paragraph I quoted earlier from their response to the that Thames Water has the necessary assets to fund Public Accounts Committee. They referred to the, enhancements on its own. That is why it has gone “scope to improve the understanding of affordability in this through the convoluted process of getting another important area”. infrastructure provider and has ended up having it Therefore, the machinery is there. But I have a financed in Luxembourg with a government guarantee. number of questions for my noble friend and I wonder Ofwat also seems to be quite happy with all 12 million whether she will be able to help the Committee. What Thames Water customers having to pay £80 a year more can she tell us about the work of this new UK extra for 40, 50 or 60 years to fund the tunnel. This is Regulators Network? Is it true that at present its basic regardless of whether we think the tunnel is the right staff consists of just two people? That is what I have solution. I do not think that it has looked after the been told and perhaps she can confirm that. How will interests of its customers particularly well because it its priorities be decided? Even its first-year work should also have looked at whether it was the right programme sets out quite a number of objectives that solution, and it should continue to do that as possible it wants to look at. Who will be responsible for its decision new alternatives are developed. Therefore, I think that making? To whom will the UKRN be accountable? there are some pretty good failures there. That is not clear from the documents I have seen. If the amendment were adopted, it would increase If the House is going to put any credence on the the transparency of all these activities to a pretty statement in paragraph 3.4 of the Government’s response dramatic extent. It would be a real benefit for consumers to the Public Accounts Committee, from which I to see that these six industries are acting in their quoted earlier, we need answers to these questions. I interests while making sure that the company has the look forward to my noble friend’s reply. I beg to move. right structure to undertake its work. Therefore, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, and fully support his amendment. Lord Berkeley: My Lords, I support this amendment. When I read it I thought that it was a breath of fresh air, which, from my small experience of some of these Lord Whitty: My Lords, as a former consumer regulatory bodies, is very necessary and probably should champion, I am fully in support of what the noble have come earlier. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Lord, Lord Jenkin, is trying to do here and, in particular, Roding, talked about the importance of competition, I see the sense in putting it in the hands of the which we discussed under the Energy Bill. An awful Treasury.The Treasury is the only government department, lot of the regulators, which he rightfully lists, under with the occasional exception of No. 10, which can Section 7, are by definition monopolies, because that ensure that individual departments do not go off at a is the way they are. tangent. The problem is not only the multiplicity of I certainly believe that monopolies are generally regulators but that each of them rests within a culture inefficient because they are not subject to competition. of a different department. The consumer function, One role of the regulators should be to make them insofar as it is reflected in Whitehall, is a very minor more efficient and make sure that they reduce their function of the business department’s responsibilities. costs as much possible and increase their efficiency. It is only the Treasury that can insist that regulators On the rail side, the Office of Rail Regulation has a and departments really look after the interests of duty to look at Network Rail’s costs and to make a consumers. GC 83 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 84

Whether the Government follow through the put passengers at the heart of what it does. Historically, amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, or the that might well have been absent and one might have NAO’s report, this is something that needs doing, and accused much of the industry of being engineering-biased, therefore I hope that we get a positive response. but I assure the noble Lord that it is certainly not the case in today’s world. Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on putting forward a The Government fully recognise the importance of very useful amendment. However, as he indicated, in ensuring that infrastructure investment is delivered in terms of the level of expertise available among staff a way which protects consumer interests and is affordable currently devoted to aspects of this kind of work in to current and future customers. I think that we can the Treasury and the fact that we would also need say that a lot of the pressures today are caused by some legislation, the whole proposal will produce the fact that investment in infrastructure essentially enormously beneficial results but not next year, nor disappeared off the radar screen for virtually a generation. probably after that. It would take some time before we We want to be sure that we do not do that to future had the full range of expertise indicated in the noble generations. It is central to government policy and to Lord’s amendment. the work of economic regulators, such as Ofwat and Ofgem, operating in each sector. He is absolutely right on one thing: of course the country is not prepared to take time over these issues However, the Government disagree with this because the consumer is all too well aware that they are amendment and have some serious reservations about bearing the costs of a great deal of interest by the trying to aggregate across sectors for infrastructure companies. What the companies reflect is what they costs. Bang our heads as we might, we cannot think of classically reflect in the private sector—the massive a way in which one could do this that could be robust increases in pay for their directors and chief executives or meaningful. since they became independent operators, a significant increase in profit and a whopping price rise for the Let me try to be practical about this. Different consumer, who has very little capacity to avoid such consumers in different parts of the country consume price rises. different amounts of travel by rail or air—I am now talking about transport, because it is my area—and We know that consumers are meant to move around different amounts of water and energy, all differently among the energy companies—we know how easy priced. Consumers also use very different amounts of that is with regard to water, for example, and other these services depending on their needs and preferences, areas where the natural monopolies obtain. The noble which makes any attempt to aggregate across sectors, Lord, Lord Jenkin, has identified what we on this side to depict a typical household or clusters or types of of the House have emphasised for several years: that household, pretty much impossible. Once one starts the operation of a great deal of these services to the trying even to estimate an average, it becomes meaningless. public through such private companies, some of which are natural monopolies, has produced a most distressing It is the sector-by-sector assessment of their customer situation for people who we all know are seeing nothing base which regulators do in detail that we think is the in the way of increase in their own resources, with low effective way to assess consumer impacts and affordability. wage levels, and are meeting ever increasing costs. I I am thinking of new transport infrastructure, which therefore strongly support the amendment and would obviously be included in this package. It might congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, on making give the Committee some understanding of how it is this great effort to produce an outline of what is near enough impossible to do this in an aggregate way. necessary. However, we will expect the next Government Transport investment affects personal affordability in to move more directly even than this proposal. many ways and affects different social groups in different ways. For example, if we bring in a smart motorway Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I am afraid that I scheme, it leads to reduced congestion and you could wear a number of hats with this Bill. While much of argue that it leads to reduced fuel bills. On the other the advice has come from the Treasury, I also speak at hand, because there is reduced congestion, more people other times for Defra. I therefore speak as a government may well use the road, so because they are travelling Minister across the breadth of a number of issues. I their fuel bills go up. However, it may be that they are can assure the noble Lord that my noble friend Lord making that journey because they now have access to Deighton will be happy to meet him. I hope that he a job or to additional business. Yousurely ought to net will take advantage of that opportunity, because it is out that benefit in order to come to a conclusion on important to share the thoughts that he has expressed the additional cost caused by that additional piece of eloquently today. motorway. Getting this sorted out is virtually impossible. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that departments HS2 is probably the biggest piece of infrastructure pay little attention to the consumer and that it is a seen across Europe. We have said that there will not be small part of what they do. That may have been true of premium fares, so what number do you put in for the the departments that he was part of in his time in burden on the consumer? Is it the standard fare? You government, but if he came today to the Department were not including it when that standard fare was for Transport, he would hear almost nothing but the being used on the existing line. Is it the additional words “passenger”, “traveller” and “consumer”. They revenue? Then again you are netting out benefits. To are key in the way that we have been shaping policy, try to unravel this into something that would let you and I think that one can see it in the response of a lot have a formula that would make any real sense is near of the transport industry, which is now beginning to impossible. It is not really a sensible way in which to GC 85 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 86

[BARONESS KRAMER] 7pm try to look at this. When we think about capturing Investing in infrastructure is a central part of the cumulative effects in a way that has some meaning, it Government’s long-term economic plan to build a seems impossible to work your way through the human stronger, more competitive economy. The country will behaviours and their responses to infrastructure to get pay a heavy price if we do not invest in the infrastructure you to something that you want. essential for our future. To try to have some sort of cost analysis without a benefit analysis really gets you Back in the department, when we are trying to very little of the way that you need to go. decide whether to fund a scheme, we try to look at this complex picture. How does the scheme impact on the The Office of Rail Regulation estimates that there individual, the environment, the economy or personal will be a 14% increase in demand from passengers over health? What happens, in terms of safety, to accident the next five years. I think that is an underestimate. levels and to various other societal benefits? It is based There will be an overall increase in tonne kilometres of on in-depth, long-standing scientific evidence about freight of 3% annually to 2033 and of 2.9% to 2043, all how people and businesses value different things. It is putting additional strain on the system. Much of the just a much more complex picture when we try to put infrastructure that supports the network is already this together into a scheme business case. nearing its capacity limits. Commuter services into London and other regional centres are already The fact that I am saying that cross-sector aggregate oversubscribed, meaning that increasing capacity is measures look at something too complex to come up increasingly important in the coming years. To take with a meaningful answer does not mean that the roads as a further example, if no steps are taken to Government fail to take affordability extremely seriously. address the need to increase the capacity of the road The Government are taking targeted action on some network and ease congestion, the UK will suffer of the costs that have been discussed today. We have economically. A 2006 study of the UK transport system introduced a range of measures to help hard-working by Sir Rod Eddington warned that the cost of congestion families with the cost of living, which is surely what we could potentially rise to £36 billion per annum by are all trying to get at. For example, increasing the 2025. All that impacts on people’s lives in a very direct tax-free personal allowance has a big impact on the way. cost of living for individuals. Freezing fuel duty has a The Government’s infrastructure strategy is based big impact on the cost of living, as does helping local around providing the infrastructure that we believe the authorities to freeze council taxes. Those are mechanisms country needs now and in future to meet current for trying to deal with this set of issues and link in no demand through the renewal of existing infrastructure. way to the kind of cumulative cost assessment that is Extensive use of the UK’s infrastructure, some of being discussed in this amendment. which is many decades old, means that maintenance and upgrades are essential to ensure that current and Targeted action on bills includes action at the last future generations continue to benefit from it. Upgrading Autumn Statement, in which the Government announced infrastructure also keeps running costs low and ensures a series of steps saving the average household around smooth and efficient operation with minimal disruptions. £50 on its energy bills. We recently announced an The Office for National Statistics forecasts that the extension of the freeze on rail fares. Last year, that UK population will grow to more than 73 million saved season ticket holders around £70 over 2014 and people by 2035, so it is imperative to have better and 2015. It is completely separate from trying to calculate more efficient infrastructure serving more homes and the specifics of a specific infrastructure investment. It increasing capacity on existing networks. To be a has been possible because the Government have a global player, grow a global economy, be competitive long-term, credible economic plan. with an increasing number of countries around the world, attract business and skilled labour and trade in For example, Ofgem undertakes detailed and regular goods and services, we must have modern infrastructure assessment of energy market customers, the affordability networks, particularly on the transportation side, where of bills and consumers’ ability to pay. Ofgem has you can see the impact that it has on inward investment. published a strategy on consumer vulnerability which set out to understand and indentify the causes of The strategy addresses climate change and energy vulnerable situations in the energy market and to security. The UK needs a resilient and secure energy reduce the likelihood and impact of such situations. It supply that allows it to meet people’s energy needs in a regularly monitors and publishes data on energy sustainable way. The UK will need to get 15% of its disconnections for debt and other issues related to energy generation from renewable sources by 2020; the supplier dealings with domestic customers. Suppliers need to meet these kinds of targets has implications are required by their licences to avoid disconnecting for our investment in infrastructure. For future growth, consumers who are of pensionable age, disabled or future prosperity and the standard of living for all, we chronically sick in the winter months—the “winter must invest in infrastructure. In the past, that has been moratorium”. Ofgem also requires the big six energy neglected, and we are currently living with the companies not to disconnect vulnerable consumers at consequences. That does not mean that we do not any time of year, and to reconnect a customer as a recognise the importance of affordability.Defra’s strategic matter of priority and usually within 24 hours, if they policy statement to Ofwat requires it to report annually are later found to be vulnerable. Regulators take these on consumer affordability, and DECC already publishes assessments and monitoring of consumers very seriously a comprehensive annual report on future energy prices indeed and see it as an absolutely core part of their role. and bills. We want to make sure that we continue to GC 87 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 88 develop that kind of analysis. It also means that we are hope that your Lordships will agree and that my noble not neglecting the understanding that you cannot just friend Lord Jenkin will feel comfortable in withdrawing look at compartments: the problem is finding a formula his amendment. or mechanism to cumulate fails to work. That is why the formation of the UK Regulators Lord Jenkin of Roding: I start by saying that I am Network, to which my noble friend Lord Jenkin referred, most grateful to noble Lords who have voiced their is so important: it enables regulators to consider consumer support for the amendment. If we were to debate this issues and affordability in each key infrastructure sector in a wider forum, we might find a good deal more and then to consider how they can help to improve support. I certainly have that in mind. We may return efficient investment in UK infrastructure. The UKRN, to this matter on Report. as it is called, draws together expertise from across its Having said that, I am very grateful to my noble members to consider cross-sectoral regulatory issues. friend for spelling out so clearly what she and her It is a step change from the Joint Regulators Group, colleagues in government see as the difficulty of forming, which preceded it. It has a dedicated staff underpinned as she came back to again and again, an aggregate by a MoU that my noble friend Lord Jenkin described. view. I do not think that people are looking for an Alongside it, there is a renewed commitment to cross- aggregate; they are looking for consistency and a sectoral work by regulators. The Government are common approach to find out how much of this consulting on what more we can do to assist in that investment will actually fall on consumers. collaboration between regulators. The example that the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, gave of the Thames tunnel has been very carefully I shall specifically answer some of my noble friend worked out by Thames Water with the help of Ofwat. Lord Jenkin’s questions about how it is resourced. The What the charge is going to be on water consumers—I UKRN draws on resources and expertise from across am one of them—is known, perhaps not over the next its membership, so each work stream has a lead regulator 80 years, but over the next two or three years. I do not responsible for co-ordinating and driving it forward, know how long it will be. That is the kind of example and it can therefore draw on the resource from its own that might well be extended to other interesting operation. Other regulators contribute to the analysis investments. being undertaken. The UKRN’s secretariat team has This is the impression I have formed on what the three staff members who oversee its work—of course, UKRN is going about. I was getting very depressed at the work is largely being done within each regulatory one point when the Minister was spelling out the body. The UKRN’s expert panel has four members impossibility of doing what we were asking it to do. who provide a challenge function to the CEOs’ group. Yes, the UKRN is a very important innovation. It is a That challenge function is crucial. much stronger and more effective body than its My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked how priorities predecessor. It is emphasising cross-sectoral issues and are decided and who is responsible for making those looking, as I said a few moments ago, for consistency. decisions. The CEOs of each of the members of the It will be able to add considerable wisdom over the UKRN are responsible for making decisions about next two or three years and help successive Governments the shape and direction of the UKRN, so its annual to try to make a better estimate of what an investment priorities are decided by the CEOs following consultation. programme of the size that we now face in this country, Each CEO is then held accountable by their board for running into hundreds of billions of pounds, is going all their work, including their input into the UKRN. It to cost consumers. is crucial that we appreciate the independence of our regulators and important that the network strengthens Baroness Kramer: The language of the amendment that, rather than in any way undermine or limit it. is that the Treasury must assess the, “cumulative impact of infrastructure spending”. I will not talk in great detail about the objectives of That is why I used words such as “aggregate” and the UKRN, as my noble friend Lord Jenkin went “cumulative”; I am happy to substitute “cumulative”. through them, but I repeat that affordability and That is our problem. empowerment are key objectives. The UKRN says that it will work to understand cross-sector issues Lord Jenkin of Roding: I quite understand that. I related to affordability of services and work on consumer take that point. Indeed, I read the evidence that was empowerment to ensure that consumers in regulated given to the Public Accounts Committee by John markets have the information and other tools necessary Kingman. He made that point very thoroughly. He is to engage effectively in markets. The Government will an extremely able civil servant and he declared himself continue to engage with the UKRN on its work to very firmly as the chief official in the Treasury concerned ensure that the framework within which regulators are with the impact on consumers. He made the exact working continues to provide companies with the right point my noble friend has made that there are great incentives to deliver essential infrastructure at the best differences between the industries and the different cost to consumers. circumstances. One is looking for consistency on this—I keep I understand those who have said that we need a coming back to that word. The UKRN is going to be cumulative number but, unfortunately, that is one of in the position to throw a good deal of light on this. I those things that are easy to say; with any good sense, was therefore very grateful when my noble friend said robustness or meaning, it is difficult to deliver. The its establishment was an important step forward. That network is a very effective direction in which to go; I is a good start. Parliament is going to have to push this GC 89 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 90

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] will be everlasting and preserved by succeeding generations. in both Houses. I do not know whether the Public Successive Governments try to ensure that this is so by Accounts Committee report and the Government’s changes in the education system and a range of other response are going to be debated in another place, but socioeconomic policies. Our asset base will also include we would certainly have an opportunity, in the context our built assets, which we have just been discussing in of this Bill, to air the matter again on the Floor of the my noble friend’s response to the previous amendment— House. We will certainly take account of the points my our roads, bridges, airports, schools, hospitals and noble friend has made and perhaps revise the wording great public buildings such as the one your Lordships of the amendment accordingly. In the mean time, I am are occupying this afternoon. As we have heard, these very happy to withdraw it. require funding for their construction. They also require a steady stream of funding for their maintenance over Amendment 96ZA withdrawn. the years and, in the fullness of time, they become no longer fit for purpose and must be replaced. Amendment 96ZAA Finally, there are our natural assets and resources. These can be subdivided into two categories. First, Moved by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts there are those that are, to all intents and purposes, 96ZAA: After Clause 28, insert the following new Clause— infinite. They are the sun, wind and rain, the flow of “Revenue from shale gas: sovereign wealth fund our rivers, tides and the movement of the waves—all (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulation, establish a of which can be harnessed in different ways to the sovereign wealth fund to receive and deploy revenue from the benefit of us all. However, there are also finite natural extraction and sale of shale gas. resources. The extent to which this country benefited (2) The regulations shall provide— in its industrial revolution from its huge reserves of (a) that the fund shall receive no less than 50% of any coal—to which the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, referred revenue received by the United Kingdom Government earlier—has been well documented. In the 1970s, we from any activity connected with the extraction and sale discovered another great gift from nature—North Sea of shale gas; oil. At that time, it was anticipated that by this date, (b) that the assets of the fund shall be deployed to serve 2014, the oil would run out. However, thanks to new long term public objectives other than those connected with monetary and exchange rate policy; technology and the rising price of oil itself, it has proved possible to find and extract profitably a far (c) that the assets of the fund may be deployed in the United Kingdom or overseas; greater volume than originally forecast. Today, while we have extracted 40 billion barrels, it is estimated that (d) that no more than 4% of the assets of the fund may be paid out in any one year; and 24 billion barrels remain. (e) for the governance, independent oversight and However, the important point, notwithstanding the transparent reporting of the activities of the fund.” above, is that it is a finite resource and it will one day run out—probably 25 or 30 years from now. Successive Governments since the 1970s have benefitted greatly Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con): My Lords, from this gift from nature. Estimates vary as to the it is with a strong sense of being tail-end Charlie that I total resources and revenue streams but we can, for the rise to move Amendment 96ZAA, which follows on purposes of our discussion, work on a figure of around from a point that I made during the Second Reading £350 billion. Every penny of that money has been debate on the Bill as long ago as Wednesday 18 June. It spent. We can discuss whether it has been spent wisely is a simple probing amendment at this stage, but one or poorly, but it has gone, and not a penny has been with some far-reaching practical and, indeed, psychological put aside formally for tomorrow. consequences. The amendment gives the Secretary of Across the North Sea, the other country that has State power to establish a sovereign wealth fund and benefitted from this gift from nature, Norway, has lays down certain basic parameters and criteria for its taken a different approach. To be fair, it is a very operation and governance. different country to the United Kingdom. For a start, For those unfamiliar with the term “sovereign wealth Norway’s population is much smaller—only about fund”, it means a fund created by a state to receive all 10% of ours—and the amount of oil and gas discovered or part of the revenue or profit from a particular there is far greater. In consequence, the reserves per source or activity. It operates under the auspices and head of population are much greater indeed. Nevertheless, laws of its host state. Its assets remain in that state’s after a fierce debate, the Norwegian people, through ownership and those who manage the fund are answerable their Parliament, decided to set up a sovereign wealth for their performance. To be absolutely clear from the fund to receive part of the benefit from the country’s start, the amendment does not propose the creation of oil and gas reserves. The first money started to flow an uncontrolled or uncontrollable body that can charge into it as recently as the mid-1990s. Noble Lords may about like a rogue elephant. be surprised to learn that in the short 20 years since, the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund has grown to 7.15 pm approaching $900 billion—£600 billion—and is Before I turn to the details of the amendment, a confidently expected to reach $1 trillion within the word on the background. Every country has an asset next few years. It returns about 4% per annum to the base that varies according to geography, geology, history, Norwegian state and consequently is generating around culture and so forth. Our asset base in this country $30 billion a year, about £20 billion. To put that figure includes our fellow citizens, their skills, entrepreneurial in context—this is not a party-political point—the drive and energy. We hope and trust that these abilities Leader of the Opposition suggested in his party conference GC 91 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 92 speech that we needed £2.4 billion to, I think in his managed fund should over time hope to achieve a 4% words, “save the NHS”. I am not going to argue about growth rate and, if so, a 4% maximum distribution whether that is going to save it or not. I put it in should enable the fund to operate in perpetuity. More context just to realise that the Norwegian state receives prosaically, the 4% ceiling prevents the fund from about 10 times that—between £20 billion and £25 billion being raided to provide funding in the short term for a year every year, and will do so in perpetuity. It is some pressing major infrastructure development—HS2 10 times what the Leader of the Opposition thought comes to mind. we needed to save the National Health Service. Subsection (2)(e), most importantly, provides that We can do nothing about North Sea oil: it is gone. the operations and activities of the fund must be absolutely We set it up the way we did and every penny we get transparent and open to public scrutiny. Reading the from now until the end of time will be spent. But now literature, it is clear that that this transparency has nature has given us a potential second windfall—natural been a vital part of creating trust and confidence among gas extracted as a result of the development of the the Norwegian public in the operations of their fund. new fracking processes. I argue in my amendment that I suspect that the Government will be doubtful we should learn from the decisions of the past as well about this idea. Every Government will always want as from the Norwegian example and create a sovereign to be able to spend every penny they can lay their hands wealth fund in the United Kingdom to receive part of on. Further, I suspect that the Treasury will hate the the proceeds from this new development. proposal. Anything outside its complete control is to I do so on three principal grounds. First, despite be resisted at all costs. But I suspect that the general every effort, there will always be lumps and bumps in public will like it. A sense of fairness is an important government spending plans, especially those related to part of our national make-up. Public support in a infrastructure projects. Returns from a sovereign wealth period when all political parties will be writing their fund could be used to help plug or iron out some of general election manifestos should not be sniffed at. these holes and bumps. In September 2013, speaking at the John F Kennedy Secondly, it would work as an exemplar of what School of Government, Norway’s then Prime Minister every Government are always exhorting us as individuals Jens Stoltenberg said: to do. Every Government say that we are living longer, “The problem in Europe with the deficits and the debt crisis is that many European countries have spent money they don’t have. that old age is expensive and consequently we need to The problem in Norway is that we don’t spend money we do have”. forego immediate consumption in favour of saving. But Governments find it conspicuously hard to follow He went on to tell his audience that this happy state of this advice on their own part. A sovereign wealth fund affairs “requires … political courage”. It is that political would at least be an example of the Government courage that I am looking for from the Minister following the advice that they so freely give to their tonight. I beg to move. citizens. Lord Teverson: My Lords, I congratulate my noble Thirdly, and this is the most important point, I do friend on putting forward this excellent amendment. It not believe that these revenue streams are ours to would be very good if something like this appeared in spend selfishly on ourselves. The shale gas reserves the manifestos of however many parties we have in the have been built up over billions of years and should general election next year. not be dissipated in less than half a century. This is an This comes down to the stewardship of the proceeds argument about fairness—about intergenerational of non-renewable resources. That is the point. My part fairness—leaving a legacy for our children, grandchildren of the world, Cornwall, was one of the richest mining and so on from assets that are surely as much theirs as areas in the 19th century. Over a period of about they are ours. 60 years it had the equivalent of billionaires and some With those background points, let me turn to the of the greatest exports. It was certainly one of the details of my amendment. First, it is permissive in that richest parts of the UK. Where is it now? It is one of it gives the Secretary of State powers to establish a the poorest EU regions and receives some of the sovereign wealth fund but does not require him to do highest forms of EU aid in the European Union. Not so. It requires those regulations that enable the one penny of that income from tin, copper and arsenic establishment of a sovereign wealth fund to meet five was retained, so we have an example of how that key tests. Subsection (2)(a) requires that the fund generational opportunity was very soon dissipated receives no less than 50% of the revenue that the and lost to today’s generation. Perhaps that is a very Government receive from shale gas extraction. This is simplistic illustration, but it is a very real one. We have the fairness argument again: 50% of any revenue can one small quasi-sovereign wealth fund in the UK: the be spent by and on us and 50% needs to be left for Shetland Charitable Trust. There are issues around future generations. Some might argue that 50:50 is that, but that local authority has managed to keep already too generous to ourselves and that 80:20 might some of the proceeds from North Sea oil. be more appropriate. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, made the point Subsection (2)(b) requires that the fund invests with extremely well. As he said, the Norwegian fund is so the long term in mind and its assets should specifically large that for each citizen—some 5 million of them—it not be used for short-term monetary policy such as would be something like $200,000 within a three-year quantitative easing. Subsection (2)( c) permits the period. fund to invest overseas as well as in the United Kingdom Having spent the income from North Sea oil, I do and subsection (2)(d) limits the maximum annual payout not see that within a European context overall we are of the fund to 4% of the principal sum. A well wildly ahead of some of our neighbours because we GC 93 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 94

[LORD TEVERSON] We see much merit in it. The one thing that we cannot had that asset. Clearly it is a challenge to government, replicate as far as the Norwegians are concerned is and I suspect that the Treasury is not so keen in this that they launched their fund at a time of great and area, particularly when we are tackling a £90 billion increasing prosperity. Any Government in power at per annum deficit. It may be that this is a difficult time present or for the foreseeable future in the United to persuade the Treasury that we should start banking Kingdom are not faced with that same position. it rather than paying off the mortgage. However, I Secondly, there is a community dimension to the issue think this is an important area. It is intergenerational. of shale gas. We are all too well aware of the price that We think more about those issues these days. You have local communities might pay in terms of disruption to start somewhere with something like this. You start while the shale gas is mined. Thirdly, I emphasise that when you start to explore and use a new non-renewable while we may underestimate how much is there, of resource, and unconventional gas or oil is one of course we may overestimate it too. It is much easier to those. The start may be modest but I hope that as we identify how much is there than to actually extract it. reduce the deficit in our public expenditure such a Therefore, we must be able to follow the greater balance sovereign wealth fund can take up the slack and be of of optimism that exists in some places. None the less, benefit to future generations. the Committee ought to be enormously grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for raising this issue. I Baroness Maddock (LD): My Lords, I am happy to hope that the Minister will give him a positive response. support this amendment. It is probably two weeks ago today that I was in Norway on an Inter-Parliamentary Baroness Verma: My Lords, first, I thank my noble Union visit. We were privileged to have a presentation friend Lord Hodgson for his amendment and for the about the Norwegian sovereign wealth fund: how it most eloquent way in which he explained the merits started, where it was and the fact that during the for the Norwegian people of having a sovereign fund. recession we have all suffered, the sovereign wealth Of course, shale represents a huge economic opportunity fund did not suffer. It was interesting to see it from for the UK. It could potentially create thousands of that point of view, but we need to be aware of two jobs, generate significant business investment and provide things that are very different there. substantial revenue for the Exchequer in future. 7.30 pm However, unlike the offshore industry in Norway, the shale industry in the UK is still very much in its Here in England, we find it quite difficult to get early stages. The Norwegian Government’s petroleum agreement across all parties—although today, of course, fund was established in 1990, as my noble friend said, on shale gas we have had that here. There is a consensus but that was nearly 20 years after oil first started being across the political parties in Norway, despite the produced and when the levels of revenue were well known. change of Government recently which we thought In the UK, shale gas is still in the exploration phase. might change that. They have carried on with the way My noble friend said that it was a potential but as yet they deal with the sovereign wealth fund. It certainly an unknown. The Government will not be able to gives them a real buffer for the future. Although it forecast the scale or timing of shale revenues until would be very difficult to do it here in exactly the same more work is done to determine the extent of gas that way as in Norway, there are a lot of lessons to be can be technically and commercially recovered. It learnt. I found it absolutely fascinating to listen to the would therefore be inappropriate to indicate now how man in charge as he explained how this worked. Another potential future revenue would be used. As a result, the person in this Room who is not allowed to speak in the Government have no current plans to assess the possibility debate is nodding his head. We enjoyed our visit and of creating a sovereign wealth fund from this revenue. this is worth looking at. I recognise the arguments behind this amendment. One of the other things I picked up is not to do with Diverting future revenues from government finances the amendment. I thought about saying this earlier to a specific shale fund, or one created by revenue but did not. I do not know what figures we have from other natural resources, would come at a cost. looked at for what is coming out of the North Sea but Shale revenues may also be needed to make up for all the predictions about what is happening to the gas shortfalls elsewhere. The UK continental shelf is a and oil fields there have never been quite right. Technology mature basin and oil and gas revenues from the North has always advanced and we have always got more Sea are declining; the Government would likely need out. We need to be aware of that as well. That is an to either raise additional tax revenue elsewhere or cut aside which is not about this amendment but I did not spending to maintain the fiscal balance. The Government say it earlier as it did not seem appropriate to intervene. consider that, in general, hypothecation, or earmarking We have a lot to learn. If we go down this road, we revenues for a particular spending purpose, is not need to look very carefully at how they did it in always an efficient way in which to manage the public Norway, what is applicable to us and what we can finances. Like all government receipts, revenues are learn from that. It was incredibly impressive, particularly remitted to the consolidated fund to support —I am repeating myself—the fact that during the general expenditure. My noble friend Lord Teverson recession their fund hardly dropped at all. They managed recognised that fact. Once it goes to the Treasury, it to keep it up. becomes slightly difficult to extract it—but that is because of the methods that we have used, whichever Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I will be very Government have been in power. It allows the Government brief. First, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, to allocate resources most efficiently across the on his excellent exposition of a very important concept. economy. GC 95 Infrastructure Bill [HL][14 OCTOBER 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 96

I thank all noble Lords for contributing. It has been Clause 30: Extent a very informative debate, which has raised some very important points. The noble Lord, Lord Davies, said in his concluding sentence that I should be sympathetic Amendments 97 and 97ZA to this proposal. Is it something that the Labour Party Moved by Baroness Kramer will put in its manifesto for the next general election? It would be interesting to know how that debate would 97: Clause 30, page 29, line 18, leave out “, 13 and 14” and follow. insert “and 13 to 15” 97ZA: Clause 30, page 29, line 29, leave out subsection (4) and insert— Lord Davies of Oldham: Could I ask the Minister “(4) In Part 4 (energy)— whether she thinks she will put it in her manifesto? (a) sections 26 and 27, sections (Maximising economic recovery of UK petroleum) and (Levy on holders of certain Baroness Verma: I have laid out very clearly our energy industry licences), sections (Petroleum and geothermal position in government. Generally, hypothecation of energy: right to use deep-level land) to (Interpretation), revenue is not something that we support. and 28 and Schedules 5 and (The Licensing Levy) extend to England and Wales and Scotland, and I conclude by recognising that the noble Lord has (b) section (The Extractive Industries Transparency made some incredibly important points, but I feel that Initiative) extends to England and Wales, Scotland and I cannot accept his amendment and hope that he Northern Ireland.” withdraws it. Amendments 97 and 97ZA agreed. Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts: I thank my noble friend. I feared that “inappropriate”and “hypothecation” Amendments 97A and 98 had been withdrawn from the would be words used in the arguments produced. I am Marshalled List. grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in support of the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, Clause 30, as amended, agreed. put his finger on the matter. If we do not set it up when we start, it will never get set up; it either happens now or it will never happen. Once the money starts to Clause 31: Commencement flow, no Government will ever take their hands off it, and the Treasury certainly will not. So we either set the framework up now or this will go the same way as Amendment 98A North Sea oil. Moved by Baroness Kramer The argument that my noble friend has not answered at all—it is unanswerable—is about the inter-generational 98A: Clause 31, page 30, line 9, leave out “and 25” and insert “, 25 and (Provision in building regulations for off-site carbon fairness. Why should we spend it all on ourselves? No abatement measures)” matter what the situation may be, if we have got ourselves in a hole we should clamber out of it and not try to rob future generations of what they should Amendment 98A agreed. share with us. I shall not go on any further, but I am disappointed with what my noble friend has said, The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner although I am not surprised. I shall discuss the matter of Worcester) (Lab): I have to advise the Committee with people who are more sympathetic with what I am that if Amendment 98AZA is approved, I shall not be trying to achieve and see whether they want to come able to call Amendment 98AB for reason of pre-emption. back to this at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment 98AZA Amendment 96ZAA withdrawn. Moved by Baroness Kramer 98AZA: Clause 31, page 30, line 14, leave out subsection (5) Clause 29: Regulations and orders and insert— “(5) In Part 4 (energy)— (a) sections 26 and 27, section (The Extractive Industries Amendments 96ZB to 96A Transparency Initiative), sections (Petroleum and geothermal Moved by Baroness Kramer energy: right to use deep-level land) to (Interpretation), and Schedule 5 come into force at the end of the period 96ZB: Clause 29, page 28, line 35, after “26” insert “or (Levy of two months beginning with the day on which this Act on holders of certain energy licences)(11)” is passed, 96ZBA: Clause 29, page 28, line 35, at end insert— (b) sections (Maximising economic recovery of UK petroleum) “(ba) regulations under section (Payment scheme) or and (Levy on holders of certain energy industry licences) (Notice scheme), or” and Schedule (The licensing levy) come into force on 96A: Clause 29, page 28, line 36, leave out “amend or repeal” such day as the Secretary of State appoints by regulations, and insert “amend, repeal or modify the application of” and (c) section 28 comes into force on the day on which this Act Amendments 96ZB to 96A agreed. is passed.” Clause 29, as amended, agreed. Amendment 98AZA agreed. GC 97 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 98

[BARONESS KRAMER] Amendment 98AA had been withdrawn from the Marshalled Amendments 99A and 99B List. Moved by Baroness Kramer Amendment 98AB not moved. 99A: In the Title, line 10, after “facilities;” insert “to make provision about maximising economic recovery of petroleum in Clause 31, as amended, agreed. the United Kingdom; to provide for a levy to be charged on holders of certain energy licences; to enable Her Majesty’s Revenue Clause 32 agreed. and Customs to exercise functions in connection with the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative;” 99B: In the Title, line 10, after “facilities;” insert “to make In the Title provision for underground access to deep-level land for the purposes of exploiting petroleum or deep geothermal energy;” Amendment 98B Amendments 99A and 99B agreed. Moved by Baroness Kramer 98B:In the Title, line 9, after “charges;” insert “to make Amendment 100 not moved. provision enabling building regulations to provide for off-site carbon abatement measures;” Title, as amended, agreed. Amendment 98B agreed. Bill reported with amendments. Amendment 99 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List. Committee adjourned at 7.42 pm. WS 15 Written Statements[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Statements WS 16

considered the recommendations, has responded to Written Statements these and made a number of announcements about the work being taken forward within its response. Tuesday 14 October 2014 These include; • Establishing a new cross-Department Star Armed Forces: Veterans’ Transition Chamber chaired by the Minister without Portfolio Review and including senior representation from all Government Departments with influence on GA Statement matters; • Commissioning economic research to inform views Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My right honourable of where Government policy could go further to friend the Minister for Government Policy and Chancellor support a vibrant GA sector, including a commitment of the Duchy of Lancaster (Oliver Letwin MP) has to look again at planning issues relating to airfields made the following written ministerial statement. in light of the planned economic research; I have today placed in the libraries of both Houses • Committing to challenge and support the delivery a response to Lord Ashcroft’s Veterans’ Transition of the European Aviation Safety Agency’s (EASA) Review which outlines our proposals to address the General Aviation Road Map, including consideration 42 distinct recommendations made in the report on of amendments to the EASA Basic Regulation how to improve the transition process. where appropriate; I am grateful for the work of Lord Ashcroft and his • Considering how to make the legislative requirements team in delivering a thorough review of the transition for GA users crossing the border easier to understand, provision for Service Personnel, not least as it confirmed and undertaking a consultation on pre-notification that the majority of Service leavers make a successful periods for GA flights to reduce the timescale for transition to civilian life, begin new careers, and enjoy advance notification at designated customs ports; good health. The report also highlighted that the • Undertaking a joint review of the Air Navigation media and public perception that the majority of Order with the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to veterans tend to have some kind of physical, emotional assess where this has disproportionate impacts on or mental health problem as a result of their service is the GA sector; not true and potentially damaging. Much of this work will contribute to a Government We have taken time to analyse the recommendations Strategy for GA which we plan to publish in the spring in detail; almost all have been accepted positively and, of 2015. where possible and practical, are being implemented. The Government will continue to work with the Service General Aviation can and should contribute to the Charities, local communities and industry to improve UK’s economic success, whilst providing a safe the experience of transition and to promote the skills environment for participants and the public. The and experience of Service leavers in the civilian workplace. Government’s aim is therefore to make the UK the best country in the world for General Aviation. I will place copies of the documents in the Libraries Aviation of both Houses. Statement

The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Honourable Friend, the Department for Communities and Local Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport Government: Recess Business (Robert Goodwill) has made the following Ministerial Statement Statement: I, together with my right hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield, the Minister without Portfolio, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department wish to inform the House of the publication of the for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad Government’s Response to the recommendations made of Wimbledon) (Con): I would like to update the House by the General Aviation (GA) Challenge Panel in its on the work of my Department since the summer final report to Ministers which was published in May. recess. We recognise the singular role that the GA sector My Rt Hon Friend, the Secretary of State for plays as a driver within the UK’s aviation industry. Communities and Local Government (Eric Pickles), Many of our pilots and engineers are trained within made a Statement on the work of the Department the GA community, and the vast majority of the during the House of Commons Summer recess aircraft in this country operate within it. Its value has (1 September 2014, Official Report, Column 1WS). been estimated at some £1.4bn to our economy, and it Written statements were also made on the steps that possesses the potential to support even more skilled the Department is taking to protect vulnerable children, jobs than at present and make an even greater contribution following the inquiry into child sexual exploitation to economic growth. in Rotherham (10 September 2014, Official Report, The Government welcomes the rigour with which Column 37WS) and on rationalising confusing and the Challenge Panel have worked to produce their overlapping housing statements (12 September 2014, report and recommendations. The Government has Official Report, Column 47WS). WS 17 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 18

The Secretary of State has also today made the Boosting local infrastructure following written statement outlining the Department’s The Local Infrastructure Fund is another way we work during the House of Commons conference recess: are getting Britain building and boosting local economies. I would like to update hon. Members on the main It is targeted at housing schemes that could deliver items of business undertaken by my Department since real benefits to their communities but are struggling to the House rose for Conference Recess on 12 September. move forward. Already 85,000 homes have been unlocked through this scheme. On 24 September, my Department Getting Britain building announced a £16.5 million cash boost to fast forward The Coalition Government’s housing investment is the development of a further 1,600 new homes at supporting the construction industry to get Britain Newton Leys, Milton Keynes, which despite receiving building the homes that our country needs. House planning permission for development in 2006, has building is now at its highest level since 2007, which been stalled for years. shows our long-term economic plan is working and On the same day, we also published a progress bringing in results. But there is more to do. report on the Growing Places Fund, which showed On 26 September, I launched a new £400 million Local Enterprise Partnerships are continuing to make Rent to Buy programme to boost the building of new excellent progress in delivering the economic growth, rental homes that will help hardworking people rent jobs and homes that communities need. The fund has now and buy later. This new scheme provides more supported 323 projects across the country leveraging flexibility for those who want to rent affordably now, £2.8 billion of extra investment including some £1.8 billion save for a deposit, and then buy their home. Under the from the private sector. I expect this to support almost scheme, housing associations and other providers can 70,000 new housing units and 4 million square metres bid for a share of £400 million in low-cost loans to of commercial and industrial floorspace. build up to 10,000 new homes across the country. Supporting the Right to Buy Landlords must then make these homes available for rent at below-market rates for at least seven years Since the launch of the reinvigorated Right to Buy giving the tenants the opportunity to save a deposit scheme in 2012, 22,500 social tenants have benefitted and get ready to buy their new home. from expert support and thousands of pounds worth of discounts in order to become homeowners. But Figures published by my Department on 25 September such a right cannot be exercised if those eligible do not showed how almost 53,000 households in England know about it. have already benefitted through the Government’s Help to Buy schemes. These schemes enable hardworking On 25 September, my Department began writing to people to buy a home with a fraction of the deposit almost one million social tenants across the country to they would normally require. remind them of their Right to Buy. This letterbox campaign will be supported through advertisements in On 30 September, we announced plans to help selected local newspapers. These people will be informed eleven areas across England to be at the forefront of about the new levels of discount available and the helping aspiring self-builders. The chosen areas – Cherwell, Right to Buy Agent service launched in August which South Cambridgeshire, Teignbridge, Shropshire, Oldham, provides reliable personal advice from start to finish of West Lindsey, Exmoor and Dartmoor, Pendle, Sheffield, the process. There might never be a better time for South Norfolk and Stoke-on-Trent – will establish and eligible council and housing association tenants to maintain a register of prospective custom and self-builders make this life-changing decision for them and their in their area and begin identifying shovel-ready sites families. for them. Delivering a localised planning system On 9 October, my Department announced new powers for councils to help them build new affordable On 29 September, I announced my Department’s homes across the country, building on the reforms we latest estimates on planning permissions being granted have already delivered to the decentralised Housing for new homes. Based on our analysis of Glenigan Revenue Account. This will allow 22 councils to borrow data, a total of 230,000 new homes received planning an additional £122 million over the next two years to permission in England in the twelve months to Q2 deliver more than 1,700 new affordable homes and 2014. Combined with the fact that the number of support local growth. There is further funding available planning appeals has fallen, this shows that our locally-led to local councils, which is only available thanks to the planning system, following the abolition of the Labour’s decisive action we have taken to reduce the deficit left top-down Regional Strategies, is working. by the last Labour Government. Despite housebuilding levels being on an upward On 10 October, we announced a new £3 million Site trajectory there is still an acute need for more homes, Delivery Fund to get work on housing sites back on especially in London. Since May 2013, those looking track. The money will help deliver up to 25,000 new to convert offices into new homes have been able to do homes across the country on sites that have been given so under a permitted development right without applying planning permission but remain caught up in red tape. for planning permission. Decentralisation is not just The fund is being shared across 60 bids from councils about bringing power down to councils, but also down for areas where large housing developments have been to neighbourhoods and individual firms and householders. agreed, and councils have shown how government Such rights have been enthusiastically adopted by the support will allow them to tackle planning barriers housing industry, with a particular move towards providing and accelerate delivery on as many sites as possible. new studio and one bedroom flats. WS 19 Written Statements[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Statements WS 20

This has included the conversion and refurbishment Ensuring high standards in private rented housing of the Archway Tower in Islington. However, Islington On 1 October, my Department brought forward council issued an inappropriately-wide Article 4 Direction, new rules that require letting agents to join one of seeking to abolish these rights across the whole borough. three redress schemes, to ensure tenants and leaseholders This is despite there being a previous exemption process. have a straightforward option to hold them to account. After discussions with the council, on 17 September we took steps to ensure empty and redundant office The vast majority of landlords and letting agents space in Islington can continue to be converted into provide a good quality service to those looking for a new homes for Londoners. Avoiding a blanket ban home in the private rental sector. The redress schemes across the borough, office to residential conversions will help ensure standards are maintained and provide have been disapplied in very small, targeted parts of tenants with somewhere to go if they feel like they are the borough instead. getting a poor deal. On 2 October, my Department published new figures The schemes run by The Property Ombudsman, showing that during the three months up to June 2014, Ombudsman Services Property and the Property Redress councils received 1,900 applications to enable redundant Scheme offer independent investigation into complaints office buildings to be turned into new homes. They about hidden fees or poor service. also revealed 900 had been approved during the same Increasing accountability and transparency in local period. Permitted development rights are also enabling government people to extend their homes without having to apply for planning permission. These figures revealed councils Greater power for local government must go hand received 7,700 applications for home extensions – 6,500 in hand with greater local transparency and accountability. of which got the go-ahead without needing to go The public should be able to hold local councils to through the whole planning process. These figures are account about the services they provide. But to do this, just for one quarter, but illustrate how our local planning people need information about what decisions local reforms are helping deliver new homes and support councils are taking, and how local councils are spending home improvements. public money. This Government has introduced a new publicity Protecting the countryside and Green Belt code for local councils in England, to help defend the independent free press. The code sets out a range of The Coalition Government is determined to protect provisions on the frequency, content and appearance our countryside and the Green Belt, as stated in the of taxpayer-funded newssheets. Alas not everybody Coalition Agreement. follows these guidelines. So on 26 September, my Department warned 11 councils that legal action could On 2 October, my Department published new planning be taken in a matter of weeks if they fail to stop or guidance reaffirming how councils should use their justify actions considered not to be in compliance with Local Plan drawing on protections in the National this code. Action is being taken against the London Planning Policy Framework, to safeguard their local Boroughs of Enfield, Greenwich, Hackney, Hillingdon, area against urban sprawl. This guidance explains Lambeth, Newham, Tower Hamlets and Waltham that, once established, Green Belt boundaries should Forest, as well as Luton, Medway and North Somerset only be altered in exceptional cases, through the councils over the frequency of their municipal newspapers. preparation or review of the local plan. It also states Tower Hamlets was also notified about the provisions that housing need does not justify the harm done to in the code on lawfulness of council publicity. the Green Belt by inappropriate development. Unlike the Labour’s discredited Regional Strategies, we have On 3 October, my Department also updated the been very clear that there is no central diktats demanding local government Transparency Code, which will further that councils rip up the Green Belt. extend and entrench local accountability and openness on how councils spend taxpayers’ money and make On 14 September, we announced proposals for decisions. This will now become a legal requirement, consultation on amending planning policy and planning subject to the passage of the associated secondary guidance on travellers. The new measures that will legislation through Parliament. ensure fairness for all in the planning system and Enhancing efficiency and resilience of local fire and provide greater protection for our Green Belt and rescue services countryside. The measures will crack down on unauthorised traveller sites to tackle those who flout On 10 October, my Department published the planning rules and abuse the system. September updates of the Future Control Room Services Scheme and an update on the marketing and disposal It also proposes that the definition of travellers in of the Regional Control Centres. These updated national planning law will be changed so that local authorities summaries provide good evidence to show that the would only be asked to plan ahead to meet the needs Future Control Rooms projects remain on track to of those who lead a genuine travelling lifestyle. This deliver the benefits outlined in the original national would mean any application for a permanent site by summary. Good progress is also being made to market someone who has stopped physically travelling would and dispose of the remaining Regional Control Centres be considered in the same way as an application from which were a legacy of the failed FireControl programme the settled population - rather than be considered and its flawed contracts (signed by the Labour under policies relating to travellers. Government) with no break clauses. WS 21 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 22

Improving local welfare provision This Government has been championing local communities continuing to cherish and celebrate The nationally-run community care grants and crisis traditional ties and community spirit, including flag-flying. loans were poorly targeted and failed to help those On 29 September, my Department raised the flag of most in need. So, in 2012 as part of wider welfare Westmorland to celebrate Westmorland Day and on reform, the Department for Work and Pensions made 1 October, my Department raised the flag of Lincolnshire the decision to abolish these discretionary funds and to celebrate Lincolnshire Day. England’s counties and transfer responsibility to councils so they could deliver historic counties continue to form an important part and tailor new local support because they best know of our cultural and local identity in this country and their areas’ needs. In contrast to the centralised grant many people remain deeply attached to their home system, under the Department for Work and Pensions’ county. reforms, councils could choose how best to provide support in their areas. I am placing copies of the associated press notices and documents in the Library of the House. The Department for Work and Pensions has provided a separate fund for 2013-15 and is currently conducting a review of the provision to date. On 10 October, the ECOFIN Government published a consultation on how local Statement welfare provision should be funded in 2015-16. We will analyse the responses to this consultation alongside the findings of the on-going Department for Work The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord and Pensions’ review into the existing provision. The Deighton) (Con): My honourable friend the Financial Government will make a decision on funding for Secretary to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today 2015-16 in time for the provisional local government made the following Written Ministerial Statement. finance settlement in December 2014. A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Luxembourg on 14 October Improving governance of public-sector pensions 2014. Ministers will discuss the following items: On 10 October, my Department published consultations on the governance of the pension schemes Measures in support of investment for local government and firefighters, as part of the Ministers will discuss measures in support of Coalition Government’s wider public service pension investment, including the Commission-EIB proposal reform to ensure better value for taxpayers’ money. for a new Task Force to identify significant European investments which are not being realised for economic, Celebrating and rejuvenating the Great British high regulatory or other business reason. street The high street has been the cornerstone of our Research and innovation as sources of renewed growth communities for decades and we are starting to see Council will discuss a Commission Communication them re-emerge with a renewed sense of self-confidence. on Research and Innovation, inviting views from Member The Great British High Street Awards to find Britain’s States on how to prioritise growth-enhancing expenditure, best high streets is shining a light on hard working particularly in this area. traders and communities around the country and showing what can be done to help shopping streets evolve to be Follow-up to the G20 Finance Ministers and Governors’ places where people want to shop, socialise and work. meeting and Annual meetings of the IMF and World Bank Group in Washington On 3 October, my Department published a shortlist There will be an update from the Commission of 21 high streets which are battling it out in seven following the G20 Finance Ministers and Governors’ categories – coastal, market town, city, village, local meeting on 9-10 October 2014 and Annual meetings parade, town centre and London – for the coveted of the IMF and World Bank Group on 10-12 October Great British high street crown. 2014 in Washington. Championing united communities and British values Banking Union: Single Resolution Fund contributions To mark International Day of the Girl on 11 October, The Commission will update the Council on progress the Government announced further funding to help towards laying the delegated act on contributions to tackle, both at home and abroad, the unacceptable the resolution financing arrangements under the Bank practices of female genital mutilation and forced marriage. Recovery and Resolution Directive (BRRD) and the This package includes funding from my Department Single Resolution Mechanism (SRM). to support community engagement, such as working with local faith leaders and improving education to Business taxation make clear that such practices have no place in modern Following agreement at June ECOFIN, Ministers Britain. will be informed of progress on a joint statement On 3 October, Ministers gave their best wishes to between Member States and Switzerland on business Muslims in the United Kingdom for Eid ul-Adha, taxation. which is the second of two religious holidays celebrated by Muslims worldwide each year. Ministers also gave Payment appropriations their best wishes to Jewish people for Yom Kippur The Commission will update Ministers on the state- (also known as Day of Atonement), which is the of-play on payment appropriations, specifically the holiest day of the year for those of the Jewish faith. draft amending budget 3. WS 23 Written Statements[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Statements WS 24

Mandatory automatic exchange of information in Iraq the field of taxation A number of ministers agreed on the need for The Presidency will seek political agreement to the Member States to provide weapons to the Kurdish revised Directive for Administrative Cooperation (DAC2), and/or Iraqi government forces fighting ISIL and to which will implement the OECD’s Global Standard increase and coordinate the humanitarian response. for Automatic Exchange of Taxpayer Information There was agreement to promote an inclusive political (AEOI) in the EU. process in Iraq. Ministers also agreed on the need to Energy taxation engage with regional players to contribute to resolving the challenge of ISIL. The Presidency will present the Energy Tax Directive, which sets minimum rates of tax for energy products It was also agreed that there needed to be improved used as heating fuel, motor fuel and electricity, to coordination on handling foreign fighters from Member Council for an exchange of views. States. Ministerial dialogue with EFTA countries Libya Ministers will meet with EEA EFTA states at this Ministers agreed on the need to engage regional ECOFIN. players to support political dialogue, underscored the democratic legitimacy of the House of Representatives and supported its efforts at working towards national EU: Foreign Ministers reconciliation. They also congratulated Bernardino Leon on his appointment as the UN Special Statement Representative to Libya. Baroness Ashton also said that EUBAM Libya The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth would continue its mission and return to Tripoli as Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My right soon as possible. Honourable Friend, the Minister for Europe (Mr David MEPP / Gaza Lidington) made the following written Ministerial statement on 5 September 2014: Baroness Ashton argued that the EU had been an important player throughout her tenure, supporting I attended the informal Foreign Ministers meeting John Kerry, engaging with Egypt, Israel and the on 29-30 August in Milan, Italy. Palestinians. She also informed Ministers that she The informal format of the Gymnich allows EU would co-chair the 1 October donors’ conference in Foreign Ministers to engage in a free-ranging discussion Cairo. on a number of issues. In contrast to the formal Ministers agreed that the ceasefire - on which the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC), Ministers do not agree Egyptian role had been pivotal - should develop into a written Conclusions. The next FAC is due to be held durable agreement, and there was general consensus on 20 October. that this should combine demilitarisation and The Gymnich was chaired by the High Representative reconstruction with international oversight (where the of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security EU could play an important role). Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland. Discussion I underlined the important role that the UN Security centred on issues in the EU’s eastern and southern Council should play and argued that the EU should neighbourhoods. support a durable agreement, including through the Elmar Brok MEP, Chairman of the European reactivation of EUBAM Rafah under the appropriate Parliament’s Committee on Foreign Affairs, attended circumstances. I urged the EEAS to follow up on the discussion on Ukraine / Russia. work to put forward EU options for supporting a Gymnich discussion ceasefire. Ukraine / Russia There was broad agreement that Russia had increased Northern Ireland: Security supplies of equipment and personnel to separatists in Statement eastern Ukraine. Ministers agreed the diplomatic process should continue. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Wales I said that the EU had to accept that President Office (Baroness Randerson) (LD): My Rt Hon Friend Putin had decided to treat Europe as an adversary the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Theresa rather than a partner. We needed to deter the scale of Villiers) has made the following Written Statement: Putin’s ambitions in Ukraine, increasing the economic This is the sixth statement on the security situation and financial cost through intensified sanctions and in Northern Ireland. diplomatic pressure. Longer-term we needed to reduce Twenty years have now passed since the 1994 ceasefires our energy dependence, enforce the 3rd energy package in Northern Ireland. There can be no doubt that the rigorously, keep up NATO deterrence, and counter security situation has been transformed over the last Russia’s propaganda with our own communications two decades; the vast majority of people are able to effort. We needed to support Ukraine on the economy, lead their lives unaffected by the current security threat. energy, governance, and the elections. Throughout the year, Northern Ireland has shown There was broad agreement that pressure on Russia once again that it is moving ahead, successfully hosting should be increased through a further package of high profile events including the Giro d’Italia and the sanctions, although a number of Member States reserved Queen’s Baton Relay, all of which passed off successfully their position on how far this should go. and without security incident. The announcement earlier WS 25 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 26 this year that the Open Golf Championship is returning Security partners have also had significant success to Royal Portrush in 2019 for the first time since 1951 in curtailing the activities of Óglaigh na hÉireann is further testament to this. (ONH). In March, the PSNI arrested an individual in Belfast in possession of an explosive device which was While so much has been achieved, Northern Ireland ready to be deployed. In May, the AGS arrested a continues to face a terrorist threat from a small minority number of individuals in possession of an even larger of groups who hold democracy in contempt. They are device, almost certainly destined to be deployed in violent and reckless and offer nothing positive to their Northern Ireland. communities. Not surprisingly, they have almost no popular support. They do, however, retain both lethal These arrests and disruptions demonstrate the intent and capability. productive working relationship between security forces north and south of the border and have ensured that Nature and Extent of the Threat ONH has been unable to carry out any significant The threat level in Northern Ireland and Great terrorist attacks since Christmas 2013. Unfortunately, Britain from Northern Ireland Related Terrorism remains despite this pressure, members of ONH in Belfast unchanged since my last statement to Parliament in persist in resorting to savage vigilante attacks against January 2014. The threat to Northern Ireland is currently members of their own community in an attempt to SEVERE (an attack is highly likely) while the threat to exercise control. Great Britain is MODERATE (an attack is possible Localised Continuity IRA (CIRA) members continue but not likely). There have been 18 national security to plan attacks against police officers. These occasionally attacks in 2014. materialise but CIRA remains factional and riven by Police and prison officers remain the principal targets in-fighting. In March, PSNI recovered a crude under- for violent dissident republicans; attacks upon them vehicle explosive device from a roadside in Belfast. It continue to vary considerably in terms of sophistication. was either abandoned by CIRA members or had Since my last statement, the sterling work of the PSNI fallen off a vehicle. In either case, it had not functioned and MI5, who co-operate closely with An Garda as intended and was instead left to be found by members Síochána and others, has undoubtedly saved lives and of the public. This kind of dangerous, wholly misguided helped to tackle the threat. I wish to pay tribute to all activity is typical of this disparate group which, along that they do to make Northern Ireland a safer place with many dissident republicans, continues to use and to acknowledge the ongoing and significant personal Republicanism as a cover for criminality and self-gain. risk they bear both on and off duty. As a direct result Not only do dissident republicans exploit and intimidate of their efforts there have been major disruptions, their local communities, they are also engaged in drug arrests and convictions in recent months as well as dealing, robbery, extortion and punishment attacks. seizures of arms and IED components, both north These people must be held to account. In May the and south of the border, that have impeded violent Court of Appeal in Belfast upheld the judgment against dissident republican activity. two CIRA members, John Paul Wootton and Brendan Since my last statement, law enforcement activity McConville, responsible for the murder of PSNI Constable on both sides of the border has impeded the activities Stephen Carroll in 2009. The road to justice has been a of the so-called new IRA. Following the arrest and long one for Constable Carroll’s family and I pay charge of alleged members of the leadership at the end tribute to their fortitude. More recently, in September, of 2013, the group’s activities were hampered. For four dissident republicans were convicted of a range of some months it resorted to sending letter bombs to terrorism offences including the use of a terrorist Army recruiting offices in GB and to prison officers in training camp, an excellent result which highlights the Northern Ireland. These crude devices have swollen sustained pressure that is being brought to bear against the number of national security incidents but were violent dissident republicans. designed to do nothing more than garner media attention Loyalist Paramilitary Organisations and intimidate the recipients. However, in March the group demonstrated its continued lethal intent when it The two principal loyalist paramilitary organisations, used an explosive projectile against a police patrol in a the Ulster Defence Association (UDA) and the Ulster residential area of west Belfast. This reckless attack Volunteer Force (UVF) continue to exist. Tensions was designed to kill police officers, but it came perilously and in-fighting within both the UDA and UVF also close to injuring or killing an innocent family passing persist and remain a cause for concern. at the time. Overall, we continue to assess that the collective The PSNI subsequently seized 2.5kgs of Semtex leaderships of the UDA and UVF remain committed from this group which was undoubtedly intended for to the peace process and, in some cases, have played a use in further lethal explosive devices. In the Republic positive role in preventing public disorder, particularly of Ireland, An Garda Síochána (AGS) arrested and around parading. However, I remain concerned that charged a suspected new IRA bombmaker. Despite there are areas where militant and criminally focused these successes, the group continues to mount attacks individuals are seeking to use their paramilitary and in late May it conducted a firebomb attack on a connections to exploit the discontent which exists in hotel; a month later armed men fired upon an unoccupied parts of the loyalist community. vehicle used by G4S staff in Belfast. However, since This exploitation is mainly for personal gain and then the PSNI have had further successes, including can take many different forms including attacks on the arrest and charge of another individual alleged to property belonging to elected representatives, drug hold a leadership role in the group. dealing, extortion, intimidation and brutal punishment WS 27 Written Statements[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Statements WS 28 attacks within their own communities. This must be, Conclusion and is, being tackled robustly. I fully support the We continue to suppress the threat from terrorism action being taken by the PSNI to apprehend those and remain fully committed to tackling it in the future, responsible. This is not an easy task and it takes time keeping the people of Northern Ireland safe and secure. to build an evidential case but the full force of the law This takes considerable effort and we must remain needs to be brought to bear upon these thugs. vigilant - there can be no let-up in our efforts. We are While the parading season in Northern Ireland totally focused on supporting the vital work that continues passed off largely peacefully this year thanks to the on a daily basis in Northern Ireland to combat terrorism. strong, co-operative approach of all of those involved, efforts must continue to ensure that public disorder of the type witnessed in previous years does not recur in Police: Undercover Policing the future. Statement

The Government’s strategic approach The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home This Government is clear that terrorism will never Office (Lord Bates) (Con): My rt hon Friend the prevail in Northern Ireland. The 2010 National Secretary of State for the Home Department (Theresa Security Strategy made tackling Northern Ireland May) has today made the following Written Ministerial Related Terrorism a tier one priority - the highest Statement: priority for Government. As Secretary of State I The use of undercover police officers is an area of provide regular updates to the Prime Minister and significant public and Parliamentary interest in the colleagues on the progress being made on tackling the light of the issues identified in the reports of Mark terrorist threat. Ellison QC and of Operation Herne. While the issues identified in those reports are historic, the public must This Government has provided additional security have confidence that the behaviour described in those funding to PSNI totalling £231million between 2011 reports is not happening now and cannot happen in and 2015 to support them in tackling the threat. This the future. is significant extra funding at a time when overall budgets are falling and when we also face a very That is why, in June 2013, I commissioned from Her significant threat from international terrorism. It is a Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC) a matter of great concern that this additional funding comprehensive thematic inspection of the undercover will now have less of an impact because of the decision work of all police forces in England and Wales and the to severely reduce the overall funding provided by the Serious Organised Crime Agency (as it then was). Executive to the PSNI, caused partly by failure to HMIC has today published the report of their implement welfare reform. There is no doubt that this inspection, which also covers the other law enforcement will have a negative effect on the PSNI’s operational agencies with an undercover capability; the National capability in some areas, notwithstanding the additional Crime Agency (as the successor to the Serious Organised support provided by the Government. Crime Agency), HM Revenue and Customs, the Royal Military Police and the Immigration Enforcement Our strategic approach also involves working closely Directorate of the Home Office. I am placing a copy with our partners in the Republic of Ireland on a of the report in the Library of the House and it is range of issues. Co-operation has never been better, available online at www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk. both politically and in security terms, and we want to build on this, removing practical barriers to co-operation The report finds that, in general, undercover officers and maximizing our ability to act against the threat on carry out their roles professionally and undercover both sides of the border. policing as a tactic is essential, but there are still important improvements to be made. In short, we must It is worth noting that the inability of the National do more. The report makes a total of 49 recommendations, Crime Agency (NCA) to operate to its full extent in addressed to all chief constables and the heads of the Northern Ireland means there will be proceeds of other law enforcement agencies, as well as to National crime that are not seized and criminals who are not Policing Leads and the College of Policing. The apprehended. The choice on whether to allow the recommendationsfocusonwaystoimprovetheauthorisation, NCA to operate in relation to devolved matters rightly guidance, training and oversight of undercover officers. rests with the Northern Ireland Executive. But that In addition, some recommendations are made directly choice has consequences. Early resolution of this issue to undercover officers themselves, their cover officers is essential to avoid serious law enforcement gaps and managers and to those in the National Crime emerging in Northern Ireland in response to issues of Agency who manage the National Undercover Database. deep public concern, such as drug enforcement, human While this Government has already taken a number trafficking and other forms of serious criminality. of steps to increase oversight and transparency in While the limit on the NCA’s powers in Northern undercover work, including raising the authorisation Ireland does not have a significant direct impact on level for undercover officers and strengthening the role the terrorist threat, it does make it harder to seize of the independent Office of Surveillance Commissioners, assets from individuals involved in criminality with it is important that HMIC’s recommendations are connections to paramilitary groupings. Depriving implemented thoroughly and quickly in order to give Northern Ireland of the full support and operational the public the necessary confidence in this work. I have capacity of the NCA also places further pressure on therefore written to the Chief Executive of the College the PSNI’s already limited budgets and resources. of Policing and to the responsible National Policing WS 29 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 30

Leads, Sir Jon Murphy and Mr Mick Creedon, asking assessment will be placed in the Libraries of both them to set out an action plan and timetable for the Houses, as in due course will copies of the Statutory police to respond to the recommendations of this Instrument, Explanatory Memorandum, and Impact report. I will place their responses in the Library of Assessment related to the renewal of the exemptions. the House when I receive them. Taxation: Policy Railways: Passengers’ Rights and Statement Obligations Statement The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton) (Con): My honourable friend the Financial The Minister of State, Department for Transport Secretary to the Treasury (David Gauke) has today (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Honourable Friend, the made the following Written Ministerial Statement. Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Transport The Government’s approach to developing tax policy (Claire Perry), has made the following Ministerial emphasises the benefits of policy consultation and Statement: legislative scrutiny. I am today announcing a consultation to consider Following Budget 2014, the Government has engaged the future of exemptions from the EC Regulation 1371/ with interested parties, seeking their views on more 2007 on Rail Passengers’ Rights and Obligations than 30 areas of tax policy.The next stage of consultation Regulations. aims to ensure that the legislation works as intended. The Regulation sets out a number of obligations Draft clauses to be included in the Finance Bill will which the rail sector must comply with in full by 2024, be published on 10 December 2014, together with including on transferability of tickets, assistance for responses to policy consultation, explanatory notes, disabled people, complaints processes, industry IT tax information and impact notes and other accompanying systems and information for all passengers. The aim of documents. The consultation on the draft legislation this consultation is to gather evidence to enable us to will be open until 4 February 2015. gain a better understanding of where the rail industry is already meeting, or exceeding, the EU standards, and to help us identify where we may be able to bring Tunisia and Lebanon certain provisions into force earlier than the 2024 Statement deadline required by the EU Regulation. The Government is committed to raising standards for rail passengers across the country. The Government The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth seeks to do this in a way that secures the maximum Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My right benefit to fare payers and taxpayers. Currently the Honourable Friend, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary Government is seeking to use the franchising programme of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs to drive up standards for rail passengers, while at the (Mr Tobias Ellwood) made the following written same time securing cost efficiency savings that can Ministerial statement on 1 September 2014: then be passed onto farepayers and taxpayers. I wish to inform the House that the Government When deciding on which exemptions to remove, we have opted in to the following measures: therefore want to ensure the right balance is struck (i) Proposal for a Council decision on the signing between the benefits this would give passengers, the and provisional application, on behalf of the cost impact on taxpayers and the rail industry, the Union, of a protocol to the Euro-Mediterranean industry’s ability to meet the requirements, and agreement establishing an association between the Government’s wider commitments to the principles of European communities and their member states, of better regulation for an industry. the one part, and the Republic of Tunisia, of the No final decisions have been taken on the issues other part, on a framework agreement between the covered in the consultation and the important evidence European Union and the Republic of Tunisia on we gather during this process will help us take robust the general principles for the participation of the decisions on the removal of exemptions. At this stage, Republic of Tunisia in Union programmes. the indications are positive and we are proposing the (ii) Proposal for a Council decision on the conclusion removal of close to two thirds of the exemptions. of the protocol to the Euro-Mediterranean agreement Nevertheless, it is important that we take the time establishing an association between the European to consider the benefits of removing exemptions, as communities and their member states, of the one well as any regulatory or cost burdens. The current part, and the Republic of Tunisia, of the other part, exemptions in place expire shortly, and in order to on a framework agreement between the European allow further consideration of these important issues, Union and the Republic of Tunisia on the general we are first taking the step of renewing all exemptions principles for the participation of the Republic of in December, to provide a holding position to allow Tunisia in Union programmes. the additional time for that detailed consideration. (iii) Council decision on the signing and provisional The consultation will run for 10 weeks from application, on behalf of the Union, of a protocol today and all relevant documents are available here to the Euro-Mediterranean agreement establishing https://www.gov.uk/dft#consultations. The consultation an association between the European Community document and associated consultation stage impact and its member states, of the one part, and the WS 31 Written Statements[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Statements WS 32

Republic of Lebanon, of the other part, on a constitution. Tunisia’s involvement in Union programmes framework agreement between the European Union following signature of the protocol will further support and the Republic of Lebanon on the general principles its reform process and will help bring it into line with for the participation of the Republic of Lebanon in international standards. This ties in with our policy Union programmes. objectives and would be a positive next step in the (iv) Council decision on the conclusion of a maturing EU-Tunisia bilateral relationship. protocol to the Euro-Mediterranean agreement Lebanon needs to become a stronger independent establishing an association between the European country less susceptible to the impact of regional Community and its member states, of the one part, events. Allowing Lebanon to become involved in European and the Republic of Lebanon, of the other part, on Union programmes will help it do this. The UK is a framework agreement between the European strongly committed to supporting Lebanon’s stability, Union and the Republic of Lebanon on the general security and prosperity.Future involvement from Lebanon principles for the participation of the Republic of in Union programmes will help the UK meet these Lebanon in Union programmes. objectives. The country is currently facing many pressing challenges including the hosting of over 1 million The UK welcomes allowing Lebanon and Tunisia Syrian refugees and security challenges. Lebanon would to participate in Union programmes which will help welcome additional EU support and closer ties. familiarise them with EU policies and working methods, These Council decisions relate in part to the Republic and allow for progressive integration into EU networks. of Tunisia’s and Republic of Lebanon’s eligibility to There are also several programmes around modernising participate in the Fiscalis 2020 Union action programme and developing their economy. and the Customs 2020 Union action programme, thus Tunisia is the region’s post-revolution success story triggering the UK justice and home affairs opt-in. and is establishing itself as a model for peaceful democratic I believe it is in the UK’s interest to opt in to these transition. A new progressive constitution and electoral measures, as we have already opted in to the internal law have been approved in 2014, and plans are under EU instruments establishing the Fiscalis and Customs way to hold elections this year, in accordance with the 2020 Union action programmes.

WA 29 Written Answers[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Answers WA 30

We have invested around 10% of this in improving Written Answers the capabilities of law enforcement to respond to cyber crime. The National Cyber Crime Unit in the Tuesday 14 October 2014 National Crime Agency has undertaken high profile operations in the last few months to tackle some of the most serious cases of malware, responsible for infecting Counter-terrorism computers and stealing banking and other information. Question This work was undertaken in conjunction with our international partners, to tackle those cyber criminals Asked by Baroness Stern operating internationally. To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they We are also working to support the public and will respond in writing to the final report of the industry in better protecting themselves from this type United Nations Special Rapporteur on Counter- of criminality. The NCSP funds the Cyber Streetwise Terrorism which was published on 28 February. awareness campaign, which encourages the public and [HL1975] small and medium enterprises to adopt safer online behaviour. The second phase of the campaign will launch The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth shortly, including a refreshed website with further Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): We have advice and support. In December last year, the no plans to respond in writing to the report by the UN Government also published a set of Guiding Principles Special Rapporteur on Counter-Terrorism dated with Internet Service Providers which agreed minimum 28 February 2014. However, the UK was represented standards for supporting their customers to stay safe at the UN Human Rights Council expert meeting on online. 22 September, where we once again set out our position on the legality of Remotely Piloted Air Systems. The Government also funds Action Fraud, the central reporting point for fraud and financially-motivated cyber crime. This service also provides information on the latest fraud threats, including phishing emails, and Diego Garcia individuals can sign up to be alerted when new threats Question emerge. Asked by Lord Ashcroft Asked by Lord Stone of Blackheath To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Written Answer by Baroness Warsi on 21 July (HL849), To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their whether the answer remains the same with the word estimate of the total number of phishing emails “intelligence” removed. [HL1931] requesting a transfer of funds received by United Kingdom citizens each year. [HL1909]

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): The US Lord Bates: It is not possible to give an exact figure Government has assured us that there have been no for the total number of phishing emails received by cases of rendition through the UK, our Overseas United Kingdom citizens each year. Published data Territories including Diego Garcia (British Indian from the Oxford Internet Institute estimates that 19 per Ocean Territory), or the Crown Dependencies, apart cent of internet users experienced phishing attempts in from the two cases in 2002, about which the then 2013, down from 22 per cent in 2011. Phishing attempts, Foreign Secretary informed the House in 2008. whether successful or not, can be reported to the Action Fraud reporting centre, run by the City of London Police, which is the UK’s central point Email: Fraud for reporting fraud and financially-motivated cyber Questions crime. The cyber security threat was recognised by the Asked by Lord Stone of Blackheath Government as a Tier One threat to national security. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps In response, we are investing £860 million over five they are taking (1) to protect the public against years through the National Cyber Security Programme phishing emails requesting a transfer of funds and (NCSP) to improve our ability to understand and (2) to identify the perpetrators; and what assessment tackle this threat. Around 10% of NCSP funding has they have made of the success of those steps. been used to improve capabilities of the police to [HL1908] investigate cyber crime, including creating the National Cyber Crime Unit in the National Crime Agency, and setting up dedicated cyber teams in each of the Regional The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Organised Crime Units in England and Wales. We Office (Lord Bates) (Con): The need to tackle cyber have also launched an awareness campaign, known as crime was identified as a key objective of the Government’s Cyber StreetWise, to encourage individuals and businesses Cyber Security Strategy, which is underpinned by to adopt sensible online behaviours so they can avoid £860 million of funding over five years through the the dangers of scams such as phishing. The details can National Cyber Security Programme (NCSP). be viewed at www.cyberstreetwise.com. WA 31 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 32

Housing Revenue Accounts Additional Provider Offer line borrowing Question name name Units (£m) Status

Asked by Baroness King of Bow Cheshire EPN 18 £946,775 Accepted West and Garage To ask Her Majesty’s Government which local Chester Sites authorities bid for additional borrowing headroom Council Cheshire Greyhound 40 £2,117,885 Accepted under the Local Growth Fund Housing Revenue West and Stadium Account Borrowing Programme 2015–17; what were Chester the values of those bids; and how many new homes Council were involved. [HL1903] Cheshire Former 20 £1,063,684 Accepted West and Acorns Chester School The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Council Cheshire Woodford 120 £6,740,735 Accepted for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad West and Lodge of Wimbledon) (Con): On 9 October 2014 the Government Chester Winsford announced £122 million of additional Housing Revenue Council Account borrowing to support over 1,700 new affordable Cheshire Stoak 12 £958,769 Accepted West and Lodge homes and local growth across twenty two local Chester authorities. Council The table below details all the local authorities who City of Tollgate 86 £8,467,561 Accepted Westminster Gardens bid for additional borrowing headroom. Council Housing Renewal Additional City of Lisson 45 £7,500,000 Rejected Provider Offer line borrowing Westminster Arches name name Units (£m) Status Council Older People’s Ashford Maidstone 21 £1,434,000 Accepted Scheme Borough Road, Dudley Wrens Nest 2 £46,000 Accepted Council Charing Metropolitan EO Birmingham Birchfield 18 £540,000 Accepted Borough City Phase 2 Council Council Dudley Dudley 40 £2,001,888 Accepted Birmingham Jarvis Road 60 £3,600,000 Accepted Metropolitan Guest City Borough Council Council Birmingham Radnor 13 £780,000 Accepted Dudley Middlepark 41 £2,080,000 Accepted City Road HRA Metropolitan Road Council Borough Birmingham Caynham 20 £1,200,000 Accepted Council City Road Dudley Roseville 16 £824,000 Accepted Council Metropolitan (archives) Birmingham Kings 44 £2,640,000 Accepted Borough City Norton Council Council Phase 1 Dudley Portway 8 £414,000 Accepted Birmingham White Farm 6 £360,000 Accepted Metropolitan Close City Road Phase Borough Council 2 Council Birmingham Park Lane 10 £600,000 Accepted Dudley Lea Bank 6 £312,000 Accepted City Aston Metropolitan Road Council Borough Birmingham Cat Lane 15 £900,000 Accepted Council City Shard End Dudley Marley 4 £209,200 Accepted Council Metropolitan Drive Birmingham Bangham 21 £1,260,000 Accepted Borough City Pit Road Council Council Dudley Mars Close/ 3 £157,200 Accepted Cannock Glenhaven 21 £1,015,000 Accepted Metropolitan Priory Field Chase Borough District Council Council Dudley The Walk 3 £166,000 Accepted Cannock Hannaford 7 £770,000 Withdrawn Metropolitan Depot Chase Way Borough District Council Council Eastbourne Glynde 1 £57,988 Accepted Cannock Pool Avenue 2 £220,000 Withdrawn Borough Avenue Chase Council Bungalow District Council Eastbourne Tenterden 4 £322,400 Accepted Borough Close Cheshire Brook Farm 10 £357,000 Accepted Council West and Chester Eastbourne 43-45 4 £303,000 Rejected Council Borough Longstone Council road Cheshire Sherbourne 10 £357,000 Accepted West and Road Eastbourne Fort Lane, 3 £257,000 Rejected Chester Borough Eastbourne Council Council WA 33 Written Answers[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Answers WA 34

Additional Additional Provider Offer line borrowing Provider Offer line borrowing name name Units (£m) Status name name Units (£m) Status

Eastbourne Belmore 4 £362,000 Rejected London Hotspur 10 £1,661,400 Rejected Borough road Borough of road, Council Ealing Northolt Eastbourne Ringwood, 2 £260,000 Rejected London Yeading site 30 £4,885,920 Rejected Borough Eastbourne Borough of Council Ealing Eastbourne 84 5 £663,000 Rejected London Great 14 £560,000 Accepted Borough Northbourne, Borough of Eastern Council Eastbourne Hackney Building Guildford Corporation 12 £360,000 Accepted London Bridge 39 £1,560,000 Accepted Borough Club Borough of House Council Hackney London Leys Phase 69 £3,200,000 Accepted London Marian 21 £1,260,000 Accepted Borough of 2 Borough of Court Barking and Wellington Hackney Dagenham Drive London Binyon Cres 2 £82,000 Accepted London Harrington 2 £193,103 Accepted Borough of Borough of Square Harrow Camden Council London Amy 3 £123,000 Accepted London Maitland 51 £4,819,500 Accepted Borough of Johnson Borough of Park Harrow Court Camden London The Heights 3 £123,000 Accepted Council Borough of London Lamble 3 £283,500 Accepted Harrow Borough of Rent London Alexandra 11 £457,000 Accepted Camden Borough of Avenue Council Harrow London Kiln Place 6 £567,000 Accepted London Grove 7 £293,000 Accepted Borough of Borough of Avenue Camden Harrow Council London Holsworth 4 £188,000 Accepted London Crowndale 2 £189,000 Accepted Borough of Close Borough of Road Harrow Camden Council London Stuart 4 £188,000 Accepted Borough of Avenue London Chalton 10 £945,353 Accepted Harrow Borough of Street Camden London Chenduit 4 £188,000 Accepted Council Borough of Way Harrow London Raglan 16 £1,527,704 Accepted Borough of Street London Moelyn 2 £94,000 Accepted Camden Borough of Mews Council Harrow London Three 23 £2,209,500 Accepted London Centry 15 £675,000 Accepted Borough of Fields Borough of House Camden Sutton Fellowes Council Road London Laystall, 5 £457,852 Accepted London Richmond 28 £1,260,000 Accepted Borough of Camden Borough of Green Camden Sutton Council London Ludlow 47 £2,115,000 Accepted London Heybridge 2 £189,000 Accepted Borough of Lodge Borough of Shared Sutton Wallington Camden Ownership London Baroness 22 £3,629,814 Accepted Council Borough of Road London Peterhead 74 £11,601,940 Accepted Tower Borough of Court Hamlets Ealing London 6 Jubilee 26 £4,594,980 Accepted London Buckingham 25 £3,803,110 Accepted Borough of Street Borough of Avenue, Tower Ealing Perivale Hamlets London Norwood 10 £1,661,400 Withdrawn London Stepney 15 £2,712,735 Rejected Borough of Green Borough of Way Ealing Tower London Northholt 25 £4,202,640 Withdrawn Hamlets Borough of Grange London Spellman 3 £630,484 Rejected Ealing Borough of street London West End 20 £3,814,200 Withdrawn Tower Borough of Gardens Hamlets Ealing Rent London Mayfield 48 £7,128,278 Accepted London Northolt 20 £3,470,220 Rejected Borough of Road Borough of School Waltham Ealing Triangle Forest London High Lane 34 £5,807,880 Rejected Luton Aldenham 5 £150,000 Accepted Borough of estate Borough Close Luton Ealing Council WA 35 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 36

Additional operated by the comparator group; and in Provider Offer line borrowing which local authority areas the two models will name name Units (£m) Status operate. [HL1898] Northampton Dallington 100 £8,600,000 Accepted Borough Beck Council The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Thurrock Tops Club, 16 £960,000 Accepted Council Grays Office (Lord Bates) (Con): The Child Trafficking Advocacy Thurrock 64-82 38 £2,280,000 Accepted trial commenced on 8 September across 23 local authority Council Argent areas. A list of these areas is provided below. In each Street of the 23 areas, both the Child Trafficking Advocacy Thurrock Grays Foyer 30 £1,800,000 Accepted service, and the current provision of support for trafficked Council children will be provided and evaluated so that we can Thurrock Vehicle 79 £4,740,000 Accepted Council Testing better understand the difference a system of specialist Centre independent advocates makes to the prospects of trafficked Thurrock Yacht Club, 30 £1,800,000 Accepted children. Council Thurrock West Firbeck 39 £2,507,935 Accepted The current provision of support will be provided to Lancashire Revival the comparator group and will include the implementation BC (URB) Scheme of the recently published statutory guidance for local Wiltshire Southview 50 £1,500,000 Accepted authorities on the care of unaccompanied asylum Council Trowbridge seeking and trafficked children. Wiltshire Warminster 40 £1,200,000 Accepted Council Extra Care Local Authority areas involved in the trial: Winchester Westman 12 £359,969 Accepted Greater Manchester (Manchester City, Stockport, City Road Council Tameside, Oldham, Rochdale, Bury, Bolton, Wigan, Winchester 2 Spring 2 £160,000 Accepted Salford and Trafford); West Midlands (Birmingham, City Vale Coventry, Dudley, Sandwell, Solihull, Walsall and Council Wolverhampton); Croydon; Derbyshire; Kent; Lancashire; Total 1973 £162,034,502 Oxfordshire; and West Sussex

Housing Revenue Accounts: Tower Asked by Baroness Doocey Hamlets To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, as Question part of the child trafficking advocate pilot scheme, they have agreed with Barnardo’s who will adjudicate Asked by Baroness King of Bow in the case of a dispute over the course of action required to ensure the child’s best interests.[HL1900] To ask Her Majesty’s Government why they rejected two of the bids made by the London Borough of Tower Hamlets for additional borrowing headroom Lord Bates: Child Trafficking Advocates are tasked under the Local Growth Fund Housing Revenue with supporting all agencies to make decisions in the Account Borrowing Programme 2015–17. [HL1902] best interests of child victims and ensuring the child’s views are voiced and respected. The Modern Slavery The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Bill includes a requirement for all public authorities to for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad cooperate with the advocate. As this is not in force we of Wimbledon) (Con): On 9 October, my Department have agreed with all 23 local authorities in the trial announced £122 million of additional Housing Revenue that they will cooperate with the advocate. Whilst Account borrowing to support over 1,700 new homes consultation with the advocate will be expected, final across twenty two local authorities. This included two decisions regarding the care and safety of the child of the four bids submitted by the London Borough of will remain the responsibility of the local authority, Tower Hamlets. Of the two approved bids, the total Home Office, parent or guardian where relevant. additional headroom amounts to over £8 million supporting almost 50 homes. The Department has not approved two of their bids where they did not meet the Housing Revenue Account Borrowing Programme’s clearly stated aims to drive down costs and to support National Security Council bids with lower public sector costs. The Department Questions gave Tower Hamlets the opportunity to revise their Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead bid which was not taken up by the local authority. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the Human Trafficking: Children ministerial membership of the National Security Questions Council; what are the criteria for membership; and what is the process for appointments. [HL1967] Asked by Baroness Doocey Toask Her Majesty’s Government whether members To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the of the National Security Council lead on specific differences between the child trafficking advocate thematic issues; and, if so, what are the thematic pilot being operated by Barnardo’s and the scheme issues and who leads on each. [HL1968] WA 37 Written Answers[14 OCTOBER 2014] Written Answers WA 38

Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The permanent North Korea members of the National Security Council, chaired by the Prime Minister, are: the Deputy Prime Minister, Questions the Leader of the House of Commons, the Chancellor Asked by Lord Myners of the Exchequer, the Foreign Secretary, the Defence Secretary, the Home Secretary, the International To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Development Secretary, the Energy and Climate Change people are employed in the British Embassy in Secretary, and the Minister for Government Policy. Pyongyang. [HL1956] The National Security Council considers a wide range of issues relating to national security policy. The Cabinet Office works with the lead Department to The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth prepare each issue for discussion. Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): As of October 2014, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office employs 11 staff in our Embassy in Pyongyang, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. This figure Network Rail includes UK-based civil servants and locally engaged Question staff. Asked by Lord Berkeley Asked by Lord Myners To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their the Written Answers by Baroness Kramer on foreign policy priorities in respect of North Korea. 15 September (HL1794 and HL1795), with reference [HL1957] to the Framework Agreement between Network Rail and the Department of Transport, whether (1) the Department for Transport, (2) the Office of Baroness Anelay of St Johns: The UK’s foreign Rail Regulation or (3) both organisations are now policy priorities for the Democratic People’s Republic responsible for approving and monitoring progress of Korea (DPRK) are focused on two areas: counter- against Network Rail’s Strategic Business Plan, Delivery proliferation and human rights. Bilaterally, we use our Plan, Business Plan and Annual Plan. [HL1881] policy of “critical engagement” directly to communicate issues of substantial concern, and to expose North Koreans to international values and the benefits of The Minister of State, Department for Transport engaging with the international community.Multilaterally, (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The Framework Agreement the UK co-operates closely with like minded partners sets out how the Department for Transport and Network to ensure international pressure is maintained on the Rail interact in terms of corporate governance and DPRK to address human rights violations and comply financial management. As set out in that document, fully with its international obligations, including under the Department will be engaged by Network Rail UN Security Council resolutions relating to its nuclear during the production of several corporate planning and ballistic missile programmes. documents, as is appropriate for a sponsoring Department, in order to agree the strategic approach: - Strategic Business Plans. Private Rented Sector Taskforce - The Delivery Plan. Question - The Business Plan. Asked by Baroness King of Bow - Annual Plans. The Office of Rail Regulation regulates Network To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Rail’s stewardship of the national network in accordance the Written Answer by Baroness Stowell of Beeston with the Railways Act 1993. It continues to monitor on 25 June (HL334), whether the Private Rented and oversee Network Rail’s delivery of outputs, efficiency Sector Task Force has met representatives of Crisis, and financial performance against what it has challenged the National Union of Students, Shelter or Generation Network Rail to deliver in its Determinations that are Rent since its establishment. [HL1907] developed through the Periodic Review process. The Determinations reflect Network Rail’s Strategic Business Plans amongst other things. The Department will not The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department duplicate the Office of Rail Regulation’s work, but will for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad oversee Network Rail’s performance on behalf of the of Wimbledon) (Con): The Taskforce has a wide ranging UK taxpayer at a more strategic level, based on the and extensive programme of market engagement focused Office of Rail Regulation’s analysis of performance on meeting its principle objective of increasing institutional and discussions with Network Rail’s Board. investment in the private rented sector and supporting The Strategic Business Plans, Delivery Plan and the development of new Private Rented Sector schemes. Business Plan for Control Period 5 were finalised prior The wider team within which the Taskforce sits and to the company’s reclassification to the public sector. consults, has met with all of the organisations referred Network Rail will continue to update its Plans for to; the Taskforce has directly met with both Shelter Control Period 5 on an annual basis. and Crisis. WA 39 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 40

Radicalism estimate that across England and Wales around 3.1 billion litres of water leaks each day. Ofwat, as the economic Question regulator, agrees maximum leakage targets with water Asked by The Marquess of Lothian companies and has the powers to issue penalties to companies that fail to meet these. In the last decade To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of Ofwat has entered into legal agreements with water the British nationals estimated to have travelled companies that have missed their targets, committing abroad to fight in Syria and Iraq for extremist them to investing more than £230m in improvements groups have since sought to return to the United on leakage. Kingdom. [HL1937] The Government and Ofwat have worked together The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home to raise the issue of leakage and have worked with the Office (Lord Bates) (Con): We believe that approximately water companies to reduce total leakage by one third 500 individuals from the UK have now travelled to the since its peak in the mid-90s. Over the next five years, region since the start of the conflict. It is estimated across England and Wales, companies are proposing half of these have returned. further work to reduce leakage further. Innovative changes in leak detection technology and large scale Water Supply programmes of customer engagement have allowed companies to improve their understanding of the problems Question across their networks and how their customers expect Asked by The Marquess of Lothian them to respond, allowing the companies to take a To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their much more proactive approach to leakage reduction. assessment of the amount of water in the United Companies are obliged to publish and explain their Kingdom that is lost through leakage between source annual leakage figures on their websites and outline and consumer; and what steps are being taken to what steps they intend to take to meet their targets in end the current position where the consumer pays future. for such losses through price. [HL1932] In its current price review Ofwat has made it clear that it expects to see companies achieve a balance The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department between keeping customers’ bills down and reducing for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De leakage where it makes sense, such as in water stressed Mauley) (Con): The most recently available figures areas where customers are willing to pay. Tuesday 14 October 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Veterans’ Transition Review...... 15 Northern Ireland: Security...... 24

Aviation ...... 15 Police: Undercover Policing ...... 28 Department for Communities and Local Government: Railways: Passengers’ Rights and Obligations...... 29 Recess Business...... 16

ECOFIN ...... 22 Taxation: Policy...... 30

EU: Foreign Ministers ...... 23 Tunisia and Lebanon ...... 30

Tuesday 14 October 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Counter-terrorism ...... 29 National Security Council ...... 36

Diego Garcia ...... 29 Network Rail ...... 37

Email: Fraud ...... 29 North Korea ...... 38

Housing Revenue Accounts ...... 31 Private Rented Sector Taskforce ...... 38

Housing Revenue Accounts: Tower Hamlets ...... 35 Radicalism...... 39

Human Trafficking: Children ...... 35 Water Supply ...... 39 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL1881] ...... 37 [HL1931] ...... 29

[HL1898] ...... 36 [HL1932] ...... 39

[HL1900] ...... 36 [HL1937] ...... 39

[HL1902] ...... 35 [HL1956] ...... 38

[HL1903] ...... 31 [HL1957] ...... 38

[HL1907] ...... 38 [HL1967] ...... 36

[HL1908] ...... 29 [HL1968] ...... 36

[HL1909] ...... 30 [HL1975] ...... 29 Volume 756 Tuesday No. 38 14 October 2014

CONTENTS

Tuesday 14 October 2014 Questions Thames Tideway Project: Contingent Guarantees...... 109 Housing: Private Rented Sector...... 111 Money Laundering: UK Parliamentarians ...... 113 ISIL...... 116 Leader of the House of Lords Bill [HL] First Reading ...... 118 Deputy Chairmen of Committees Membership Motion ...... 119 Select Committees Membership Motion ...... 119 Arctic Committee Membership Motion ...... 119 Serious Crime Bill [HL] Report (1st Day) ...... 119 Bishops and Priests (Consecration and Ordination of Women) Measure Motion to Direct ...... 165 Grand Committee Infrastructure Bill [HL] Committee (7th Day) ...... GC 31 Written Statements...... WS 15 Written Answers...... WA 2 9