Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 2 MARCH 1971

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

QUEENSLAND

Parliamentary Debates [HANSARD]

SECOND SESSION OF THE THIRTY-NINTH PARLIAMENT (Second Period)

TUESDAY, 2 MARCH, 1971 Common Law Practice Act Amendment Bill; Legal Assistance Act Amendment Bill; Under the provisions of the motion for special adjournment agreed to by the House Beach Protection Act Amendment Bill; on 10 December, 1970, the House met at Rural Fires Act Amendment Bill; 11 a.m. Clean Air Act Amendment Bill. Mr. SPEAKER (Hon. D. E. Nicholson, Murrumba) read prayers and took the chair. PAPERS ASSENT TO BILLS The following papers were laid on the table:- Assent to the following Bills reported by Mr. Speaker:- .Proclamations under- Consumer Affairs Bill; Greenvale Agreement Act 1970. State Development and Public Works Education Act Amendment Act 1970 Organisation Act Amendment Bill; (No. 2). Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill; Consumer Affairs Act 1970. Land Act Amendment Bill; Factories and Shops Act Amendment Act 1970. Stamp Act Amendment Bill (No. 2); Orders in Council under- Farmers' Assistance (Debts Adjustment) Act Amendment Bill; Racing and Betting Act 1954-1969. The Rural Training Schools Act of Greenvale Agreement Bill; 1965. Civil Aviation (Carriers' Liability) Act The University of Queensland Act of Amendment Bill; 1965. Police Act and Another Act Amendment The Grammar Schools Acts, 1860 to Bill; 1%2. Police Superannuation Act Amendment The Local Bodies' Loans Guarantee Bill; Acts, 1923 to 1957. Factories and Shops Act Amendment Bill; Medical Act 1939-1969. Industrial Development Act Amendment The Explosives Acts, 1952 to 1963. Bill; The Queensland Government Industrial Railways Act Amendment Bill; Gazette Act of 1961. State Government Insurance Office Industrial Development Act 1963-1970. (Queensland) Act Amendment Bill; The Harbours Acts, 1955 to 1968. Education Act Amendment Bill (No. 2); Water Act 1926-1968. Commonwealth Places (Administration of River Improvement Trust Act 1940- Laws) Bill; 1968. BS 2638 Questions Upon Notice [2 MARCH] Questions Upon Notice

Regulations under­ (2) "No. Warrants are not met at Education Act 1964-1970. present." Health Act 1937-1968. The Nurses Act of 1964. NUCLEAR TESTS, MURUROA ATOLL The Hospitals Acts, 1936 to 1967. Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked The Adoption of Children Acts, 1964 The Premier,- to 1967. Further to his Answer to my Question on The Apprenticeship Act of 1964. December 3 concerning radioactive fall-out Factories and Shops Act 1960-1970. from the French nuclear tests at Mururoa The Inspection of Scaffolding Acts, 1915 Atoll and in view of the New Zealand to 1966. report on the findings of the National The State Housing Acts, 1945 to 1966. Radiation Laboratory, released from The Harbours Acts, 1955 to 1968. Christchurch on November 24, will he confer with the Prime Minister of Australia By-law under .the Harbours Acts, 1955 to to ascertain when the report of the Aus­ 1968. tralian Atomic Weapons Testing Safety Statutes under the University of Queens­ Committee will be available to Members of land Act of 1965. this House? Schedule of particulars relating to the mortgage of Emmanuel College Answer:- land. "Previous experience on the monitoring Volume !-Conclusions and Recommenda­ of fall-out from the French nuclear tests tions--of the Report by the Delft in the South Pacific was that no public Hydraulics Laboratory on Coastal health hazard resulted and it is expected Erosion and Related Problems of the that fall-out in Australia from the 1970 Gold Coast. tests would have been similar in pattern to those of the tests in the preceding three Report of the Dumaresq-Barwon Border years. The customary documentation Rivers Commission for the year 1969- regarding the 1970 tests has not, as yet, 70. been received from the Commonwealth Authorities but there is no doubt that, if there were any unusual aspects relating to QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE the 1970 operation, the Right Honourable the Prime Minister would have brought INSTALLATION OF TRAFFIC LIGHTS, them to notice immediately. There is CAIRNS certainly no basis for the Honourable Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked Member's endeavour to arouse public con­ The Minister for Mines,- cern in this regard." Further to his Answer to my Question on March 26, 1968, concerning installation EFFECT ON PARLIAMENT HOUSE STAFF of traffic lights- OF EXTENDED SITTING HOURS ( 1) Have traffic volumes increased Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked sufficiently to warrant pedestrian traffic The Premier,- lights at Cairns and, if so, what is the order of priority for the city block and ( 1) Is he aware of the rising resentment other locations? amongst the staff of Parliament House, at all levels, at the callous disregard of their (2) Have arrangements for pedestrian­ personal welfare which has been shown by actuated lights at school crossings in Cairns the handling of the hours of meeting of the been included? House? If so, will demands continue to be made on all staff, thus extending their Answers:- devotion to duty to complete exhaustion? (1) "Not on the declared Bruce and (2) In the absence of redress or Cook Highways. Traffic lights have been recourse to industrial action to resolve installed at the Fiveways. Cable ducts their grievance, will he ensure that future have been installed at the Aumuller Street sessions will be conducted within reason­ intersection on the Bruce Highway and at able hours of duty? several intersections on the Cook Highway (Sheridan Street) to enable traffic lights Answers:- to be readily installed when the warrant is met. In the city block, an allocation for ( 1) "No representations have been the Traffic Engineering Trust Fund has received by me and I am not aware of any been made this year for traffic signals at such state of affairs. If the Parliament the two intersections at Shields and Lake House Staff seriously consider they were Streets, and Shields and Abbott Streets. over-extended, I am sure they would It is anticipated that Cairns City Council present their views through the appropriate will provide funds for pedestrian crossing channels and not through the Honourable signals in Lake Street between Spence and Member for Cairns." Shields Streets." (2) "See Answer to (1)." Questions Without Notice [2 MARCH] Questions Without Notice 2639

QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE lad's mother. The facts are that there are just under 400 first-year apprentices and POLICE-CITIZENS YOUTH CLUBS probationers in bricklaying in Queensland at Mr. TUCKER: I ask the Minister for this stage, and many more applications are Works and Housing: In view of the publica­ being received. Quite a number of positions tion of comments attributed to him that are available in the general building trade, restrictions might be placed on the pro­ and people should go to the Apprenticeship vision of full-time police instructors and Office and inquire about them. There is supervisors for Police Youth Clubs as a not much point in writing letters to news­ means of offsetting current Police Depart­ papers. The Apprenticeship Office is the ment operating costs, and in view of the proper place to handle these inquiries. disquiet in the public mind that this vital service, which assists in developing better AMALGAMATION OF FERTILISER COMPANIES citizens, might be restricted, what is the present position in regard to these clubs? Mr. HINZE: The Treasurer will recall that before the Christmas recess he made a Mr. HODGES: My statement was to the statement to the House relative to the effect that no additional police would be possible amalgamation of fertiliser compan­ appointed to these clubs. The 21 members ies in Queensland. As it is now expected presently training at the various centres will that this will take place within two weeks, be transferred to areas where their services has he, in deed or in fact, been acquainted can be utilised to a greater extent. The all along the line with the negotiations, and, services of members now being used at as he previously stated he would, has he these clubs will not be withdrawn. undertaken to protect the interests of the Government and the primary industries in any negotiations that take place? DROUGHT RELIEF Mr. TUCKER: I ask the Premier: Follow­ Mr. CHALK: I recall the answer that I ing recent claims by Councillor F. Tritton, gave in the House before Christmas to a chairman of the Flinders Shire Council, at question of a similar nature. It is true that, Mt. Isa, that the Wool Commission is of since that date, both the minority directors no use; that Queensland's receiving only of A.C.F. & Shirleys Fertilizers Ltd. and $16,000,000 of the $100,000,000 provided by those representing the majority shareholder the Commonwealth for the States to establish have communicated with me. As recently Rural Reconstruction Boards was a mis­ as last week, prior to a meeting of A.C.F. carriage of justice in view of the prolonged that was held in Brisbane, I was informed drought, the high freight charges, and the by both sides that they were then negotiating long distances; and that the Rural Recon­ and that it was believed an amicable settle­ struction Board will become a liquidation ment could be reached. I have since been body for the wool industry in Queensland advised that a proposal has been put forward by the representatives of the majority share­ unless something is done immediately, what holder on the directorate and that the matter is his Government doing for the 50,000 is now being examined by the directors of people in the West who are without income A.C.F. and also by I.C.I., which is the other and without jobs? company involved. It is my hope that the Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: In order that matter will be settled amicably in the inter­ I may give the hon. member a full reply. ests of the shareholders of A.C.F. and that, I suggest that he place the question on the at the same time, the establishments that we Business Paper. have in this State associated with the pro­ duction of fertiliser will be maintained.

BRICKLAYING APPRENTICESHIPS SAND REPLENISHMENT OF GOLD COAST Mr. R. E. MOORE: I ask the Minister BEACHES for Labour and Tourism: Has the Minister's attention been drawn to a letter to the editor Mr. HINZE: I ask the Minister for Con­ in today's "Courier-Mail" in which it is servation, Marine and Aboriginal Affairs: claimed that a lad could not obtain an As the replenishment of sand on the beaches apprenticeship in the bricklaying trade in at Kirra, Coolangatta and Greenmount is a Queensland? Would the Minister investigate matter of extreme urgency, and as the sand this claim and give his comments to the that will be brought in will have to come House? from New South Wales-1 am aware that the Minister has tabled the Delft Report­ Mr. HERBERT: I appreciate the hon. has he yet made, or will he in the immediate member's interest in the apprenticeship future make, representations to the Govern­ system. The case mentioned by him was ment of New South Wales and acquire sand brought to my notice this morning. As for this purpose from across the Tweed River inquiries made at the Apprenticeship Office or from some other source? revealed that neither the author of the letter nor the boy in question had made any Mr. N. T. E. HEWITT: As the hon. approach ,to that office, I sent a welfare member knows, I tabled the Delft Re]Jort in officer from it this morning to talk to the the House only this morning. I think he 2640 Questions Without Notice [2 MARCH] Death of Mr. R. K. Brown would be best advised to put his question Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: Copies of the on the Business (f>aper and let me give him report are available to the public for $50. a considered answer. Mr. Hin:ze: The council bad the report two months ago. What are you talking DISPOSAL OF REFUSE FROM "SUNLANDER" about? You're a bit late. GRIDDLE CAR Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The hon. Mr. R. JONES: I ask the Minister for member for South Coast knows very well Transport: Is it a fact that the presently that there should be no interruptions during accepted method of litter disposal from the question time. "Sunlander" griddle car consists of placing refuse on the floor of the car in an open FORM OF QUESTION doorway and then executing an expertly placed kick with the side of the foot so that Mr. AIKEN (Warrego) having given the refuse is sent from the fast-moving train? notice of three questions- Mr. KNOX: I really feel that the hon. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I advise the hon. member is asking me a facetious question; member for Warrego that the latter portion nevertheless, if he is serious I will have the of his first question is out of order as it complaint examined, and no doubt the rail­ seeks an expression of opinion. It will have way officers who are responsible will be to be altered before it is admissible. severely reprimanded. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I draw the DEATH OF MR. R. K. BROWN attention of the hon. member for Kedron to the fact that on several occasions I have MOTION OF CONDOLENCE ruled, and it is also in Standing Orders, that Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah hon. members must not pass between the -Premier) (11.52 a.m.), by leave, without member who is speaking and the Chair. I notice: I move- ask him to please obey that rule in future. " 1. That this House desires to place on record its appreciation of the services rendered to this State by the late Richard REDUCTION IN EDUCATION DEPARTMENT Kidston Brown, Esquire, a former member ExPENDITURE of the Parliament of Queensland. Mr. P. WOOD: I ask the Minister for "2. That Mr. Speaker be requested to Education and Cultural Activities: With convey to the widow and family of the reference to the announced reduction of deceased gentleman the above resolution, $900,000 in his department's expenditure, will together with an expression of the sym­ he give a general outline of the areas of pathy and sorrow of the members of the departmental activity where reductions are to Parliament of Queensland in the loss they be made? I point out that as this is a question have sustained." without notice I do not seek detailed informa­ The late Richard Kidston Brown was elected tion, but simply a general indication of where to the 31st Queensland Parliament on 3 May, expenditure is to be reduced. 1947, as the Australian Labour Party repre­ sentative for the electoral district of Mr. FLETCHER: It will be quite Buranda. He served continuously until the obvious, I think, to most people that this dissolution of the 34th Parliament on 12 is an impossible question. The sort of thing June, 1957, which followed the split within that has to be done after a reduction has his party's ranks. been made in general allocations is some­ Although it is almost 14 years since the thing that comes out in the "wash". During late Dick Brown sat in this House, there are the period of administration for the rest of several among the present parliamentarians, the financial year such cuts as will cause the including myself, who remember him as a least damage to our organisation will be quietly spoken man who held the respect of effected, and they will be carried out with all hon. members, irrespective of party due regard to the needs of education. The allegiances. His unobtrusive nature, in fact, hon. member has my assurance on this point. concealed his close affiliation with numerous organisations which worked for community welfare. Until his death recently, in his 85th DELFT REPORT year, he maintained a strong personal Mr. BROMLEY: I ask the Premier: With interest in young people. This no doubt was regard to the Delft Report, which the engendered by his own prowess in, and his Minister for Conservation tabled today, will love of, field sports. he arrange for the report to be printed so As a youth he turned out regularly with that members can study it carefully without the Thompson Estate Harriers (now the waiting to get it from the Library, as no Thompson Estate-Eastern Suburbs Amateur doubt it will be on a long waiting list Athle,tic Club) and represented his State at because of the desire of a large number to national championships in walking. His read it? Will copies be made available for active membership of that club extended over the Gold Coast City Council? 71 years, including 33 years as president. Death of Mr. R. K. Brown [2 MARCH] Death of Mr. R. K. Brown 264T

In later years he was closely associated in this motion of condolence following the with the Eastern Suburbs Rugby League death of Richard Kidston Brown-"Dick"' Club, and was president of its Junior League Brown, as he was more familiarly known. for a record term. He was one of the pioneer The Premier covered a considerable amount organisers of the Buranda bowling green, or of ground in dealing with the late Dick the "R. K. Brown Green", as it is known. Brown's activities, but there are perhaps one He was probably the only parliamentarian or two things that I might add that I believe or former parliamentarian to have a bowling should be said in this House. green named in his memory-in his native State at least. I said that I join in these remarks with a heavy heart. I say that because of the Before entering Parliament, and prior to void that the passing of Dick Brown has left the proclamation of the Greater City of in his family, and in the Jives of those who Brisbane, he had been an elected member knew him very well. I also speak with a of the Stephens Shire Council. feeling of pride because of my friendship The late gentleman was, above all, a man with him, what he meant to me, and how of deep Christian sentiment. He was a he assisted me over the years. As the regular worshipper for more than 50 years Leader of the Opposition said, he was indeed at the Annerley Methodist Church, where he a friend of the people, not only whilst he also taught at Sunday school for a time. was the member for Buranda but throughout I commend this motion to hon. members his many years. It was indeed unfortunate in tribute to a departed colleague who served that he was defeated by a handful of votes his State and its people with considerable in 1957. In fact, during his election cam­ credit. paigns his well-known. slogan was, "Dick Brown, the People's Fnend." Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the I believe it may be propitious and timely to Opposition) (11.55 a.m.): Naturally, I wish recall some of the actions and attainments to associate the Opposition with the words of of this man who, whilst not aspiring to condolence spoken this morning by the Pre­ honours higher than those that he held in the mier, and I feel that our sympathy goes to Government of which he was a member, those who were near and dear to Dick nevertheless continued to work sincerely for Brown. I suppose he will be remembered in the people. his area long after most people are forgotten, because not only was he member for his I do not think that Dick Brown had an area but, as the Premier said, he was associ­ enemy in the world. He was liked by people ated with many local organisations. He was in all walks of life. He was a Christian who associated with them not with any idea of believed that one should' do unto other:o; as dominating them or getting something out he would have done unto him, and he was a of them for himself, but purely and simply good father and a good husband. Knowing because of his love of people and his desire him a<> well as I did, perhaps I might say to help those with whom he came in contact. that he may have neglected his wife at times because of his great interest in other people Very few members on this side of the and the assistance he gave to organisations House knew Dick Brown in this Parliament. of all kinds to which the Premier referred There may be four or five who were here earlier. during his time. However, those of us who come from the metropolitan area knew him He was very active in Masonic lodges particularly well in his activities outside Par­ and took a keen interest in the construction liament. The resume of Dick Brown's of the home at Sandgate for aged Masons activities given by the Premier showed what and the widows of Masons. It is true also, a very active life he led. Before entering as the Premier pointed out, that Dick Brown Parliament, Dick Brown was associated with was a Sunday school-teacher at the Annerley local government in the days when shire Methodist Church in his younger days, and councils dealt with matters of a very local he attended .that church regularly until nature. Members of local government showed incapacity forced him to miss the great their feelings for mankind in their activities pleasure that that attendance gave to him and in that field, and Dick Brown will always his family. be remembered, firstly, for his association Because of the intended resumption of with the Stephens Shire; secondly, as a mem­ Dick Brown's property for the South-east ber of Parliament; and, most importantly, Freeway, he left his Annerley home in for his association with people in various December, 1970. I1 was the home in which organisations from which he received no he and Mrs. Brown had lived for almost 60 monetary return but certainly a lot of satis­ years-in faot, it would have been 60 years faction for a job well done. this year-and in which they would have I am sure my colleague the hon. member celebrated their diamond wedding atmiver­ for Norman will be very pleased to associate sary. himself with this motion of condolence, and to support me in these remarks. In regard to his political background, he believed wholeheartedly in the Australian Mr. BROMLEY (Norman) (11.58 a.m.): Labour Party and democratic Labour It is indeed with a heavy heart, and a feeling socialism. His interest in the Labour move­ of pride, that I join with others in this House ment began in his early teens, in 1900 or 2642 Death of Mr. R. K. Brown [2 MARCH] Proposed Motion for Adjournment

perhaps just before that. He joined the Mr. DEAN (Sandgate) (12.7 p.m.): I Workers' Political Organisation, then should like to associate myself with this graduated into the Australian Labour Party. motion of condolence to the relatives of our The Premier mentioned Dick Brown's A.L.P. late colleague and friend and to pay my candidature in various shires, so I will not respects to his memory. I shall not reiterate repeat that, but Dick became a foundation what previous speakers have said, but Dick member of the Buranda b!'anch of the A.L.P. Brown was a first-class citizen in the com­ in 1931. He was president of that branch for munity. Anyone who can be given that label a record term of 33 years and, as a result has something to be proud of. of my nomination, was made a life member My association with the late Dick Brown of the Australian Labour Party and awarded extended over many years. I first came into a gold badge. He was proud of that, of very close association with him during my course, and so were the other members of local authority days at the City Hall. He the branch. was a great fighter at all times and a particu­ I do not intend to reiterate Dick Brown's larly vigorous fighter for the temperance activities in ass1stmg young people-the movement. He was always very concerned Premier has already told the House of about the way the youth of the country were them-but it is true that he provided indi­ being led by the evil of alcohol. At every vidual troph~es at schools so that children opportunity he made forceful comments could go home to their parents and say, about this great evil that was, and still is, "I won this cup at school". In fact, shields attacking the youth of our day. donated by Dick Brown are still being The late Dick Brown was a great family competed for in various organisations. man. He was interested not only in his own The next m&tter that I wish to mention family but in many other families as well. will be of interest to the Minister for Educa­ One could spend a great deal of time talking tion and Cultural Activities and the Minister about the many acts of kindness, considera­ for Works and Housing. Dick Brown took tion and humanity extended by him to an active interest in-in fact, he was one of numerous people in the community over the the original band of people who built-the many years that he was active in public life. swimming pool at the Buranda Boys' School, I join with other hon. members in express­ now known as the Buranda State School, &nd ing to his relatives our sympathy in their sad that pool was built completely by voluntary loss, and our sad loss, at the passing of our labour. late friend, Dick Brown. Dick Brown was not a returned soldie,r, Mr. MELLOY (Nudgee) (12.9 p.m.): I but he was held in such high esteem that wish to associate myself briefly with this he was made patron of the Stephens branch motion of condolence. The late Dick Brown of the R.S.L. was one of my closest and greatest friends. I knew him from when I was a young man, He was a eo-founder and, from its incep­ and was closely associated with him and his tion, patron of the Buranda Bowls Club, of family for over 40 years, throughout his which one of the greens bears his name. political career. Outside of his family. I I reiterate one thing that the Premier would have suffered as great a loss as any­ said because I think it is very important. body by Dick's passing. I therefore wish to One. of Dick Brown's greatest achievements associate myself with this motion of con­ was the fact that, in the field of athletics, dolence that is to be conveyed to his family. he represented this great State of ours in the Motion (Mr. Bjelke-Petersen) agreed to, walking championships. He was patron of hon. members standing in silence. the Thompson Estate Harriers, or the Thompson Estate-Eastern Suburbs Amateur Athletic Club as it is now known, until he PROPOSED MOTION FOR died, having been a member of that organisa­ ADJOURNMENT tion for 71 years. That certainly was a great ELECTORAL REDISTRIBUTION achievement. Mr. SPEAKER: Hon. members, this morn­ Dick was a good temperance man. Inci­ ing I received the following letter from the dentally, he was a cousin of Miss Isabella Leader of the Opposition:- McCorkindale, M.B.E., who passed away only "Leader of the Opposition, last week. As hon. members know, she was Parliament House, the national director of education and research Brisbane, 2nd March, 1971. for the Women's Christian Temperance Union. The Honourable D. E. Nicholson, M.L.A., Speaker, I believe that the world is richer and far better because Dick Brown was in it. If Legislative Assembly, everybody followed Christian teachings as he Parliament House, did, not only this House but this country, Brisbane. too, would be much better off. Dear Mr. Speaker, I am sure that Mrs. Brown and her family I beg to inform you that, in accordance would like me to express appreciation to the with Standing Order 137, I intend this day. House and to hon. members for this motion Tuesday, 2nd March, 1971, to move­ of condolence. 'That the House do now adjourn.' Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill 2643

My reason for moving this motion is The purpose of this Bill is the abatement to give this Parliament an opportunity of of litter on roads and public places. discussing a definite matter of urgent pub­ Under existing law, the exercise of control lic importance, namely, the necessity that over the depositing of litter on roads and a Bill be introduced to make provision public places is primarily a matter for for the better distribution of Electoral local authorities, the Local Government Act Districts. empowering them to make by-laws to exercise This has become particularly urgent such control. In terms of the Act, a by-law because of: may impose a penalty not exceeding $200 (a) The time required to carry out a for a breach thereof. Under the City of . redistribution; Brisbane Act power is vested in the Brisbane (b) The growth and shift in population City Council to make ordinances to control has resulted in the facts that- the depositing of litter on roads and public places under its control in the City of (i) quotas under 'The Electoral Dis­ Brisbane. tricts Act of 1958' have been exceeded and/ or are not now Most local authorities in Queensland have reached in many districts; made by-laws of this type, but submissions (ii) the present zones, as constituted have been made from time to time that under the Act, do not now enable not enough is being done to deal with the a realistic State distribution; litter problem. Whilst it is known that some local authorities have been successful and because- in prosecution for breaches of litter by-laws, (c) Many districts therefore no longer the great difficulty is to apprehend an bear any true relation to the growth offender in the act of committing a breach. of population; This, of course, is necessary for a successful (d) The people of Queensland are prosecution. A large part of Queensland entitled to a better and more is sparsely settled, making the enforcement balanced electoral representation; of litter by-laws a problem, especially since (e) The Government has a clear legal many offences are committed outside normal and moral duty to proceed in the hours. Again, it has been claimed in certain matter in readiness for the next quarters that penalties prescribed for litter~ State General Election. ing offences have been too low to be a Yours sincerely, deterrent. J. W. Houston. A number of representations have been Leader of the Opposition." made to the Government for the enactment of a special litter Act to deal with the As the Premier has this morning given problem. This action is supported by the notice of his intention to introduce a Bill Brisbane City Council and the Local Govern­ for the redistribution of electoral boundaries ment Association of Queensland. We have during this session of Parliament and as given consideration to the representations that ample opportunity will be afforded to hon. have been made and, whilst we are of the members to debate the subject at that time, it opinion. that punitive measures are not the would not be in order for me to accept complete answer .to ~he litter problem, we the motion for adjournment of the House feel that there is merit in the proposal for proposed by the Leader of the Opposition. the enactment of special legislation to deal with the matter. Legislation of this type has LITTER BILL already been enacted in the State of Victoria and in New Zealand, and is embodied in the INITIATION Local Government Act of New South Wales. Hon. W. A. R. RAE (Gregory-Minister for Local Government and Electricity): I For the information of hon. members, I move- shall proceed to outline the principal pro" visions contained in the Bill. "That the House will, at its present sitting, resolve itself into a Committee In terms of the Bill, it is an offence to of the Whole to consider introducing a deposit litter on a public place except in Bill to make provision for the abatement accordance wi·th the requirements of the of litter and for other purposes." person or authority hav:ing control of that public place. An exception is made where Motion agreed to. litter is deposited temporarily in the course of enjoying a public place as a place of public INITIATION IN COMMITTEE resort, for example, in the course of a picnic. (The Chairman of Committees, Mr. Hooper. The term "public place" is defined as a Greenslopes, in the chair) dedicated road and a place of public resort open to use by the pubJi.c as of right, for Hon. W. A. R. RAE (Gregory-Minister example, a public park. It does not include for Local Government and Electricity) (12.13 a place .to which the public is nOli: admitted p.m.): I move- as of right, for example, a sporting area to "That a Bill be introduced to make which admission may be gained only upon provision for the abatement of litter and payment of a fee. It is considered that for other purposes." control over the depositing of litter irt the 2644 Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill latter class of place should be the sole con­ offender to clean up the litter within a time cern of the person or authority having juris­ and to the satisfaction of a person appointed diction over such place, and the legislation by the court and, in default of compliance has no application thereto. with such order, to pay a further penaltv The provisions of the Bill will be policed not exceeding $200 as the court deems fit. by authorised persons, who are to consist Instead of making such an order, the .of- court may order an offender t:o pay to the Members of the Police Force, who will person or authority in control of the public have power to deal with the depositing of place in respect of whioh the offence occurred litter on roads and any pubHc place; such sum as the court considers is reasonable Persons appointed by a local authmity, to cover the cost of cleaning up the litter. who will have power to deal with the If payment is not made within the uime fixed depositing of litter on roads and public by the court, provision is made for enforce­ places under the control of the local ment of the payment as a judgment debt. authority; and 'Provision is made in the Bill for an Persons appointed by a person or authorised person who detects a person .authority having the control of a par­ committing a littering offence in a public ticular public place (for example, the place ·to issue an on-the-spot penalty notice trustees of a reserve), who will have power to such person where the authorised person to deal with the depositing of litter on considers that such course of action is ade­ that public place. quate having regard to the type and quantity of litter deposited, the place where it was Ari authorised person, other than a police deposited and the circumstances of the case. officer, will be required to carry an identity It is envisaged that action for the imposition card and will have power to demand from of on-the-spot penalties will be taken in a person whom he finds committing a littering the case of minor littering offences and that offence his name and place of abode. If the court action will be resorted to in the case person fails to give this information, or of more serious offences. supplies information which the authorised person suspects to be false, the lrutter may If the offender pays the on-the-spot penalty arrest the person concerned and take him to to the person or authority having control a police station or watch-house for detention of the public place within the prescribed until the correct information is obtained. time, no further action will be taken. If he does not make payment in the above Mr. Sherrington: This means there will be manner, the offender will be proceeded no on-the-spot fines. with by way of prosecution in a court. Mr. RAE: Yes, there will be. The offender may elect not to pay the on-the-spot penalty and contest the matter The Bill provides the following maximum in the court. penalties in respect of offences against the policing of the legislation by authorised Mr. Tucker: Who can impose the on-the­ persons:- spot fines? Assaulting or using insulting or abusive Mr. RAE: A police officer or an authorised language to an authorised person---$200 officer from the authority concerned. or imprisonment for six months or both; Failure to comply with a direction of an The procedure laid down in the Bill for authorised pe.rson or giving false informa­ the imposition of on-the-spot penalties for tion thereto-$100; littering offences is similar to that in respect of the imposition of on-the-spot penalties Hindering or resisting an authorised for regulated parking offences under the person in performing his duties-$100. Traffic Acts. The amount of on-the-spot The term "litter" is defined by the Bill as penaJ.ties will be prescribed by regulation. any kind of rubbish, refuse or garbage and ·Prosecutions for littering offences may be any matter that, when on a public place, instituted in the following manner:- causes, contributes or .tends to the defacement or defilement of that place. By a member of the Police Force, in relation to the depositing of litter in any The Bill prescribes the following maximum public place; penalties fo·r littering offences:- By the clerk of a local authority or $300 whe.re the litter deposited consists a person appointed by a local authority of broken glass or other substance likely in that behalf, in relation to the depositing to injure persons using the public place; of litter in a public place under tl1e and $200 in other cases. control of that local authority. The: It is also an offence under the Bill to break institution of the offence has to be author­ glass or cause glass to be broken in a public ised by resolution of the local authorit',; place except in accordance with the require­ and ments of the person or authority in control In relation to the depositing of litter in thereof. A maximum penalty of $300 is a public place under the control of J prescribed for this offence. person or authority other than a loc8l Where a person is convicted of a littering authority, by that person or authority or offence, the court may, in addition to by a person appointed in that behalf imposing a monetary penalty, order •the by such person or authority. Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill 2645

Penalties recovered for breaches of the legis­ hon. member for Chatsworth, who is also on lation will be paid as follows:- that council, would agree with me. How­ Where the proceedings were instituted ever, lack of finance has impeded our efforts. by a local authority, into the local author­ We hope that this legislation will be the ity's general fund; means of making Brisbane the cleanest city, Where the proceedings were instituted and Queensland the cleanest State, in the by a person or authority having control Commonwealth. over a particular public place, into the Under the existing law, local authorities fund maintained by that person or author­ are primarily responsible for litter and ity in respect of such public place; and garbage on roads and in public areas. The Where the proceedings were instituted Minister referred to this a few moments ago. by a member of the J>olice Force. into The Local Government Act enables local Consolidated Revenue. authorities to pass by-laws and ordinances to exercise such control, but the experience of The Bill contains certain evidentiary pro­ the major council in this State, namely, the visions which are designed to facilitate pro­ Brisbane City Council, has been one of ceedings for offences against the legislation. frustration and bitter disappointment in They relate to such matters as proof that implementing those by-laws and ordinances. a person is an authorised person for the pu1·poses of this Act, that a place on which The Minister said that the claim has been an offence occurred is a road or public made in certain quarters that the penalties place, and that a public place is under the prescribed for littering have been too light control of a local authority, etc. In terms to act as a deterrent. I, and I imagine every of the Bill, these matters will be accepted other hon. member, will concur whole­ as conclusive evidence in court proceedings heartedly with the Minister's statement. The for a littering offence unless evidence in main weakness has been not the terms of the Local Government Act but the attitude rebuttal is produced. adopted by the Magistrates Courts. The The Bill provides that an authorised per­ health inspectors of the various city councils son will not incur any liability from carry­ and other local authorities spend countless ing out duties under the legislation where hours interviewing alleged offenders and he acts bona fide. collecting irrefutable evidence for the purpose of prosecuting those who commit this offence. The Governor in Council is empowered Invariably, in the past, the magistrate has to make regulations prescribing matters to not given very much consideration to the h! prescribed under the legislation. One $200 penalty provided by the Act for this such matter is the amount of on-the-spot c,ffence, and in many cases has imposed a penalties to be prescribed. The regulations ridiculously low fine. will have to be laid before Parliament. The stage was eventually reached in As I mentioned earlier, I do not consider Brisbane where it was uneconomic for the that punitive measures are a complete answer City Solicitor to recommend a prosecution. to the litter problem. I do feel, however, It must be remembered that whenever a that the penalties prescribed by the Bill council institutes legal proceedings, the cost for littering offences will tend to be a is a direct charge upon the ratepayers in that deterrent to prospective litterbugs and should particular local authority area. Therefore, I aid in preventing the despoiling and deface­ sincerely hope that when this proposed meas­ ment of our public places. I accordingly ure becomes law, the courts will take a commend the Bill to the Committee. realistic view and impose fines up to the .\I~. DEAN (Sandgate) (12.24 p.m.): As maximum provided in the legislation. The the Opposition's shadow Minister for Local same remarks apply to shire councils and Government, it is my responsibility to speak provincial city councils throughout the State. first for the Opposition in reply to the I do not want it to be thought that I am Minister's initiatory speech on this very advocating that Parliament should give direc­ important Bill. The purpose of the Bill tions to the courts. However, Parliament i' to make provision for the abatement expects magistrates to accept their responsi­ of litter on roads and public places. On bility and to use the power placed in their what the Minister intimated in his speech, hands and impose penalties that will act as I indicate at this stage that the Opposition a deterrent to those who contemplate dump­ is in accord with the motives behind the ing litter on our highways and by-ways. introduction of such a measure. After From time to time I have questioned the thorough examination, we wish it to become actions of magistrates and the meagre fines law as quickly as possible because the they have imposed. Perhaps it might be litter problem, coupled with general pollu­ logical and reasonable enough for some tion of our environment, has occupied the people to express the view that magistrates attention of, and been of great concern are always inclined to impose small fines to to. the Labour Party for some time. avoid the possibility of appeals against their As the Australian Labour Party repre­ judgments. Knowing magistrates as I do, I sentative on the Keep Australia Beautiful cannot acce_pt that opinion. Indeed, I believe Council, I assure hon. members that a lot that the standard of the judiciary in this State of work has been done to overcome the litter is high. I have known many magistrates problem in Queensland. I am sure that the personally, and I have found them to be men 2646 Litter Bill (2 MARCH] Litter Bill

of courage and integrity who carry out their Most sportsmen that I know are responsible job with the greatest measure of efficiency. people. A good sportsman is usually a very However, they are only human, and the good citizen and displays sportsmanship in reasons for the actions that they take exist in all avenues of life. I feel that when a sports­ their minds, and their minds only. I do not man leaves a sports ground he will take care want to give the impression that we in this to see that the area is left clean. There are, Chamber, after passing laws, direct magis­ however, certain occasions on which this will trates on how those laws should be not be so, and I think the situation will have implemented. to be watched carefully so that those respon­ sible for a sports ground can be assured of I hope that the proposed legislation will some kind of protection if they want to strengthen the hands of magistrates and give enforce the law against those who will not them more latitude in dealing with the serious do the right thing by leaving sporting areas problem that has developed in the community in a clean and tidy condition. today as a result of the actions of the few people--and there are only a few-who have The Minister said that such places will be no sense of responsibility towards their fellow the sole concern of the person or authority men. I refer to those who dump rubbish having jurisdiction over them. I think he on roadsides, and sometimes even over the said also, "and the legislation has no appli­ fences of neighbours. I hope that this legis­ cation thereto". Again I ask the Minister to lation will serve the purpose desired by Par­ give close attention to that section of the liament, so that not only will Brisbane become proposed legislation. a clean city but th(l whole of Queensland will In his introductory speech, the Minister become an unsympathetic and costly place mentioned that an authorised person who for those who dump litter around the country­ finds a person depositing litter in a public side. place may apprehend the offender. Of The Minister also said that pumtlve course, he can do many things if he is measures are not the complete answer to the physically capable, but that provision also litter problem. All will agree that that is requires some clarification and I ask the quite so. But there are, I am sorry to say, Minister to reconsider it. people in the community who simply will not The Minister said that if a person refuses do the right thing unless they are threatened to give his name an authorised person can by some form of penalty. arrest him and take him to a police station The Minister also said that it is envisaged for the purpose of ascertaining that informa­ that the legislation will be policed by auth­ tion. It would be a bit difficult for me to do orised persons, namely, members of the Police that, for example. It sounds very good in Force and persons appointed by local auth­ theory, but in practice it is not so good. The orities. I suppose that those appointed by first question I ask is: what legal protection local authorities will include health inspectors has the person making the arrest if he is and building inspectors. When the Minister challenged on the ground that he has arrested made that statement, I thought of the refer­ an innocent person by mistake? All of us ences that have been made over the years make mistakes, and in some instances a group to making more use of the many justices of of people may be involved and the person the peace in the community today. Many making the arrest might pick on the wrong people are eager to attain the great honour one in the group. What will happen if the of becoming a justice of the peace, but I am person making the arrest is an ordinary citi­ afraid that at present these officers are not zen and is capable of taking the alleged called upon to any great extent to carry out offender to the police station? I believe that various duties and responsibilities. I think quite a dangerous situation could arise. I I have said in this Chamber previously that may be splitting hairs or seeing something that does not exist, but I ask the Minister to greater use could be made of justices of clarify that point for me. the peace. Mr. Twcker interjected. Perhaps the Minister could refer in his second-reading speech to the suggestion that Mr. DEAN: As suggested by the Deputy justices of the peace could be used for this Leader of the Opposition, some kind of purpose, especially in country areas, where appeal should be provided or the person people know their neighbours much more making the arrest should be clothed with intimately than is the case in the city. It certain powers, which should be embodied would be much easier in the country than in the Act. in the city for justices of the peace to help, Similar power could be vested in all in company with police officers and local justices of the peace. Again I come back to government authorities, police this legis­ the justices of the peace, because they already lation. have more: powers than the ordinary citizen Reference was made by the Minister to and they h;,ve certain protections. Every sporting arenas to which admission may be justice of the peace takes the magistrate's gained by the payment of a fee. He said oath, and that embles him to sit on the that they will be exempt from the provisions bench if required. Over the years I have read of the legislation. To my mind, their exemp­ about the duties that may be carried out by a tion from the law is fraught with danger, and justice of the peace. He may perform the this position will have to be watched carefully. duty of an ordinary policeman by making an Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill 2647 arrest and taking other similar action. Howe­ offences. From what I have heard of this ever, I cannot think of one instance over the legislation so far, there is no threat of years in which a justice of the peace has imprisonment in it. apprehended anyone and taken him to the Mr. R. E. Moore: There shouldn't be, sergeant of police in a particular area or to a either. local police station. Perhaps it has happened without my _knowing it, but I should like the Mr. DEAN: I think there should be; there Minister to tell me whether a justice of the should be a very strong threat. peace has ever apprehended an offender and Mr. W. D. Hewitt: I think that provision been instrumental in having him brought is in respect of broken glass. before a magistrate. As I said earlier, I hope that justicte experienced in that to those contemplating dumping litter on a respect. The maximum penalty for offences highway or elsewhere. against the policing of the legislation is $200. That is fair enough, but what is the minimum In my opinion, the on-the-spot penalty penalty for such offences? Much of our for minor offences has merit. No doubt the legislation has a similar weakness in that on-the-spot penalties will apply to people maximum penalties are stated but minimum who rthrow empty cigarette packets, match­ penalties are not. I realise that only very boxes or cigarette butts on the pavement or rarely are maximum penalties imposed. I out of car windows. The proposed fine of feel that it is necessary that minimum penal­ $10 should have the desired effect. If it is ties should be stated in this legislation. We not found adequate, consideration can be have waited a long time for this Bill and it given in the future to increasing the penalty. should give the court some guide on mini­ Most of the disfigurement of suburban mum penalties. The discretion should not be streets and highways is caused by litterbugs left fully in the hands of the court to impose who dispose of such articles as they walk only a very small fine or no fine at all. Just along a footpath or drive along a roadway. as we fix the maximum penalty, we should The penalty proposed is more realistic than also fix the minimum penalty. that imposed by the New South. Wales Gov­ ernment, which, in its amendment, fixed a The Minister referred to a statutory penalty of only $5 for such an offence. penalty of $100 for hindering or resisting an We on this side welcome the legislation; I authorised person, and a penalty of $300 feel sure from what we have heard so far for depositing litter consisting of broken glass that we will agree with most of it. On the or_ other su~stances likely to injure persons other hand, after giving it full examination, usmg a public place or when the quantity of we may feel that we can improve it by litter is substantial. What is meant by the word "substantial"? He also referred to a amendment. penalty of $200 in other cases. These are Mr. W. D. HEWITT (Chatsworth) (12.45 all maximum penalties, with no appropriate p.m.): The hon. member for Sandgate pre­ guidance to the court on minimum penalties. faced his comments by referring to the Keep I believe that there should be a definite Australia Beautiful Council on which he and I maximum penalty for certain litter offences serve as representatives of our respective and a definite minimum penalty for the parties. At the outset, I endorse his com­ same offences. I ask the Minister to give plimentary comments about that organisation consideration to including minimum and applaud its success in the work it has penalties in the legislation. been doing over the past few years. It is The Minister told us that the maximum fair to say that it has spearheaded the attack penalty of $300 was in line with the amend­ on the litter problem and has been instru­ ment to the New South Wales Local Gov­ mental in bringing it to the forefront of ernment Act. I think we could have public thought by directing attention to it. followed the Victorian Act with more advan­ I think the measure introduced today is, in tage,. Incorporated in the Victorian legisla­ many ways, a culmination of the efforts of tion is the threat of imprisonment for certain this body over many years. 2648 Litter Bill [2 MARCH) Litter Bill

It would be true to say that litter is the on iL First of all, outlining facts relative to dimension of the pollution problem that is litter, one of the bulletins indicates- everybody's business. In contrast to many 'That it cost an estimated $30 million aspects of pollution about which, as to clean-up unnecessary litter in Australia individuals, we can do little, it is the dimen­ last year. sion about which everybody can do some­ "That the cost of cleaning-up 1 lb. of thing. We can all fulminate about the pollu­ litter is about 17 cents. tion of watercourses and the great oceans. We can all become very disturbed about the "That last year's bill for cleaning-up industrial filth that each day is belched into Melbourne's central city area alone was the heavens from chimneys and can concern $500,000." ourselves about clean air, but in the ultim­ Some interesting statistics come from the ate these aspects of environmental pollution United States where it is estimated that on are all things that must be controlled by Gov­ a mile of highway there can be found an ernment, and that, in his own right, the every­ average of 1,652 pieces of paper, 396 cam.. day man in the street can do little about. 254 bottles, 59 motor-vehicle parts and 86 This is not so with litter. Litter is man's bits of clothing and miscellaneous items. It problem. Man causes litter and he must is further estimated that an average American do something about it. This legislation is community has an annual bill running to timely and it dovetails very well with other $1,115,000 merely for patrolling and cleaning measures on environmental control that the roadside litter. Those figures show that it is Government has recently taken or that it has a colossal problem. Important as the size foreshadowed it will take. of the problem is, of greater importance and When one considers the Environmental a matter for alarm are the consequences of Control Council set up before Christmas and litter. the amendments made to the Clean Air Act, Although we do not need to be told, the together with the reminder from the Business same document tells us-- Sheet that it is intended to amend the Pollution of Waters by Oil Acts, one sees "That litter can maim, kill and cause that this measure dovetails in very effectively sickness. and is continuing proof that this Government "That at 28 beaches patrolled by mem­ is concerned about the pollution of the ber clubs of the Royal Life Saving Society environment and, more importantly, is deter­ more than 1,500 people were treated for mined to do something about it. cut feet. "That litter causes personal injury Certainly, the evidence is in front of every­ through cuts, abrasions and consequently one of us that litter control is urgently needed. blood poisoning. This becomes evident when one sees the "That a great deal of pollution of rivers, despoiled picnic spots, the littered roadsides streams and harbours is caused by careless and the rubbished beaches. All of these disposal of waste matter." things offend our eyes and, as responsible people, we are determined that something It refers to the fact that litter can be instru­ should be done about it. mental in causing hepatitis and polio, and, It is usual at the outset to try and define of course, provides the breeding ground for the dimension of the litter problem and here vermin and insects. It points out also that I interpose for a moment on my own argu­ children can suffocate in carelessly discarded ment to point out to the Committee that the refrigerators and polythene bags. disposal of litter, be it discriminate or indis­ Then it says- criminate, is a continuing and growing prob­ "That bushfires have been started by lem throughout the world. In parts of the cigarette butts and matches thrown from United States it is now impossible to find cars, by broken glass magnifying the sun's depressed-land areas that can be reclaimed; rays, and have been aided by paper litter. indeed, authorities are having to shift litter "That litter left on the roads constitutes and rubbish manY hundreds of miles in order a road hazard." to dispose of it. There are theories that fissures in the seabed may ultimately be used Today we are dealing not with an insignifi­ for the disposal of litter. Indeed, some cant matter but with one of great importance persons are looking to ingenious machines and a major problem that is of increasing that could consume all litter and regurgitate consequence. material that could be recycled-such things as tin, aluminium and glass. I hope that those The problem has been tackled in a realistic who are conducting the experiments will be fashion by many overseas countries. America able to achieve a major breakthrough. In has, rather belatedly, tackled it in a very a recent edition of "The American Times" realistic fashion, and only a very low number indication is given that one machine is close of States in America are lacking in effective to being perfected. This, I hope, will legislation. Those States that have introduced represent something of a breakthrough. anti-litter legislation have published interest­ ing booklets, such as the one that I hold Talking about the litter dimension of the here, to indicate the penalties that are problem, we are indebted to the Keep Aus­ prescribed and also the education pro­ tralia Beautiful Council for regular bulletins grammes that are launched to combat litter. Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill 2649

As well, the majority of European countries voluntary assistance. There is no question have effective legislation that controls the that it can do a really telling job only when disposal of litter. its organisation is put on a full-time basis so that it can launch an educational pro­ In Australia there is little doubt that the gramme of the same degree as that carried Victorian Government has shown the way. out by the Victorians. To that end, it looks Probably Victoria now ranks among the for greater Government participation in its cleanest of the Australian States, and this is activities. I point out that the Government the result of the telling legislation that has has made $1,000 a year available to the been passed by the Government of that committee for the last three years in which State. Victoria's commendable lead has been I have represented the Government on that achieved not only by legislation but also by committee and the hon. member for Sandgate education. Great credit is due to the Vic­ has represented the Opposition. torian Premier, Sir Henry Bolte, for that achievement. A few years ago he indicated There has been some support but lookin" that he wanted to do something about the at the experience of Sir Henry B~lte wh~ litter problem, and he invited a great number was able to enlist so much outside assi~tance of community leaders to a luncheon. At that by virtue of the lead that he gave, it is luncheon he spoke to them about the prob­ reasonable to assume that if this Government lem and the Government's intention to make made $25,000 available to a committee such $20,000 available to spearhead a campaign as this, community participation would be against litter disposal. The greater part of ever so much greater. I know that many that campaign was to be implemented by industrialists are waiting for the lead to education, to bring to the notice of the people make funds available. Only when a full-time the problem of litter. This gesture by the committee is working on the problem will Victorian Government had such a telling p~ople get to know about it and assist. They impact on the community leaders who will help because they will be educated not attended that luncheon that before they left merely because penalties can be imposed on it they had chipped in to the extent of them. $55,000, thereby matching the Government's I suggest to the Minister that the obvious lead. a;im of the legislation is to keep Queensland From that, we in Queensland who are try­ tidy, ~ut w~ must firstly get Queensland tidy. ing now to do something effective about litter That Js a JOb of no me·an proportions and can learn a lesson. As a result of the money indeed, the mere immensity of it could over: that was made available a Victorian litter whelm us. I hope that we will think committee was set up, and it placed great realistically about it, and that the Minister emphasis on education by making available will seriously consider initiating a "Get advertising material, slides, and litter bags q~een~land Tidy M tralia Beautiful Council in Queensland, but I something pretty useful. " wish to dwell a little longer on its activities. Up to the present itme those activities have I again remind the Committee about the been carried out largely on a voluntary basis. emphasis in the Victorian campaign on the Some five years ago the Queensland commit­ bran? "pig" which was used extensively tee began as the Anti-litter Campaign, and relat~ve to anyone who was seen disposing since then it has functioned with a part-time of. litter. That would be telling dn a cam­ secretary. Since February, 1970, it has paign, and newspapers would probably be associated itself with the Keep Australia very happy to participate. We can imagine Beautiful Council and has organised anti­ all sorts of useful ways in which such a litter campaigns, television coverage and the campaign could be applied. distribution of approximately 73,000 pamph­ I hope that local authorities become a lets. As well, it has received extensive news­ little more conscious of the problem, with paper coverage, it has projected the idea of particular reference to surfing beaches rthat the attendance of litter maids at major func­ we all visit on occasions. Most beaches have tions, and has enlisted the active support of some type of Ji.tter bins but very few of them a number of community organisations. The are emptied frequently enough durino­ group has done a wonderful job with a holiday periods, and little enough emphasi~ paucity of funds, acting almost entirely with is placed on .the fact that litter should be 2650 Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill

put in them. I do not think it is beyond the I attended a Local Government Associa­ wit or wisdom of local authori~ies to erect tion conference in September, 1969-the novel, interesting signs at the entrances to Minister was there also-at which a high· beaches, asking people to co-operate by ranking New South Wales official delivered putting litter in its right place. By position­ an address on the question of litter and ing bins in strategic places, it would make for pointed out what his State was doing at that ease of use by the people. time. We were told that other States were further advanced than New South Wales in We certainly will not overcome the litter their legislation on this matter. problem without co-operation at all levels, so that people realise that all aspects of Mr. Davies: It is rumoured that the Government are determined to do something Minister is not getting very much encourage­ about it. Litter is certainly everybody's prob­ ment from his colleagues. lem, and everybody can do something about it. Mr. MARGINSON: I want to say this [Sitting suspended from 12.59 to 2.15 p.m.] about the Minister. I am encouraged by what he is doing. Since he took office, there Mr. MARGINSON (Ipswich East) (2.15 has been some attempt, even though it has p.m.): I listened to the Minister with great been somewhat veiled, to attack the problem interest when he was introducing the Bill, of pollution of our waters and our air and, and I recalled that during the past few now, the abatement of litter in our cities. months in this Chamber we have been dis­ ,Perhaps the greatest danger, as I see it cussing some relevant matters, such as the as a result of my travels throughout the pollution of our air, rivers and streams. We State, particularly in the metropolitan and are now discussing the abatement of litter. Ipswich areas, is broken glass. In many I am one of those who have reached the places such as highways, public reserves, conclusion that these matters should have beaches, and other places where people been dealt with a long time ago. We should congregate for picnics or swimming, broken have had on the Statute Book many years glass will be found in dangerous situations. ago legislation covering pollution of the air I hope that this is one problem that will be and particularly pollution of rivers and attacked when dealing with litter in such streams. Shortly after the Minister took areas. office, he told us of the dreadful pollution One problem that arises concerns bound­ he saw in the Brisbane River. We on this aries between local authority areas. Not side of the Chamber had been complaining only broken glass but all types of rubbish, about it for a long time, and although the garbage and refuse are dumped mainly on Minister made that statement about our rivers the boundary of an adjoining shire, or just and streams, little or nothing has been done within the adjoining shire. I hope that to overcome the problem. Will little or the Bill introduces uniformity in control nothing be done with respect to this pro­ throughout the State, but I have consider­ posed legislation in another 12 months' time? able doubt about who will in the main Until now, the question of litter on our be responsible for administering this law highways, picnic reserves and streets has and accepting the responsibility of carrying been left entirely to the poor old local out its provisions. authorities; the Government has taken little interest in it. During my period as an alder­ I was very concerned when I heard the man on the Ipswich City Council, the Minister say that the authorised persons to council frequently endeavoured to get the take action under the Bill were to be, firstly, Government interested in this matter for the members of the Police Force. sake of uniformity throughout the State. Mr. Newton: There are not enough mem­ But, as I said, it was left entirely to the bers of the Police Force now. local authorities to institute their own by­ laws. Imagine one local authority passing a Mr. MARGINSON: That is the point that by-law dealing with litter, and the neighbour­ I am coming to. So much is heard about ing local authority deciding that it will not. police officers having to do work that is not That is the position in which local authorities regarded as part of their normal duties. have been placed for many years. There We are told that every endeavour is being has been no uniformity, and no lead from made by the Minister and the Commissioner the Government to local authorities in of Police to shed some of this work from tackling this terrible problem of litter on police officers to enable them to carry out our highways and streets. the work for which they are appointed. From the Minister's outline of the con­ It is now suggested that members of the tents of the Bill, it is quite evident to me 1Police Force will enforce certain provisions that once again, as this Government has done of this Bill, and undertake prosecutions. for the past 13 years, we are copying legis­ Those in the third of the three categories lation that exists in another State. In all of persons who will enforce this legislation probability, no original ,thought from the are persons in charge of reserves or similar Government is contained in this Bill, just as areas, such as trustees. In my opinion, there has been no originality in any other trustees would not be familiar with the law legislation introduced by it. Other States under which they are to be asked to assume already have this type of legislation. the responsibility of issuing prosecutions. Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill 2651

The second category mentioned by the a very long time. I am hopeful that my Minister, which I mention last, includes per­ anticipation of the provisions is incorrect. sons authorised by local authorities. This However, knowing the Government as I do is where the main responsibilities under and the manner in which it treats local auth­ the Bill will lie. This will be another orities, I foretell that local govern­ Government responsibility placed on the ment will be given the responsibility poor old local authorities, whose finances not only of carrying out the provisions of today are exceedingly limited for carrying out other responsibilities thrust on them by the Bill but also of shouldering another the Government, such as administrative financial burden. I hope that the Minister, responsibilities under the Traffic Act and in replying to the debate, will tell me that even certain health regulations relating to that is not correct. barbers' shops. R-esponsibilities such as these have been thrust from the plate of the Mr. CASEY (Mackay) (2.28 p.m.): I alw State Government onto that of local govern­ have some doubts about several of the points ment. Although I have not yet seen the that have been made relative to the proposed Bill, I visualise that here is another respon­ Bill. Firstly, I agree with the Minister's sibility that will be thrown into the lap of comment that he thinks the legislation is local government. not the complete answer to the problem of litter. In fact, I think every member of This is one thing for which local govern­ the Committee who thinks soundly will agree ment does not want to assume responsibility. on that point. I have always believed that, I know that to be so, because I have been in dealing with public problems, education present at many discussions on the matter. should be first and foremost on the list of I do not want to be misunderstood: local steps to be taken. In my opinion, much has authorities welcome legislation to overcome still to be done in the field of educating the the nuisance of litter, but they do not public of Queensland relative to the litter want the matter thrown to them for adminis­ problem that faces them. Each and every tration. Where, for instance, will they get one of us is a member of the public, and the necessary revenue? I suppose I will I would guarantee that not one hon. mem­ be told that they will get it from penalties ber present in the Chamber today has not, imposed as a result of prosecutions. Local at some time or other in the past 12 months, authorities are the only ones who have offended by adding to the litter problem in played a part in attacking the problem of one way or another, probably unintentionally. litter on the highways. Many local authori­ ties, including the one with which I was In this matter there are three types of associated, provide bins in their streets, high­ people in the community. Firstly, there is ways and main roads, and anywhere else the person who is very conscious of the where people congregate. They cannot force problem and exceedingly careful to ensure people to place litter in the bins, but at that he does not litter his environment. Of least they have provided bins and are con­ the litterbugs themselves, there are two types. tinuing to provide them. There are those who are careless; there are They also provide controlled public tips. those who are deliberate. One has only These are places at which people are to go to the Botanic Gardens, in the employed almost full time to accept litter, centre of Brisbane, any day of the week refuse and garbage from the public, and during the lunch hour to see these two types under the control of the local authority, be it quite plainly and clearly. A person may have a shire council, a town council or a city his lunch and leave something on the ground council, that litter, refuse and garbage is alongside him. He may have his family there. covered. In addition, for one week every When the time comes to move off, he is so year, usually round about October, local busy chasing after the kiddies that he forgets authorities provide facilities for the removal to pick up his rubbish and put it in the of heavy garbage and litter--disused equip­ receptacle provided. Then, of course, there ment, furniture that is no longer needed, and is the other type who crumples up his lunch­ so on-from residences. No-one else does paper and then tries to hit a bird with it. that, so the local authorities do it. He throws away the article he has finished I visualise that the proposed Bill will throw with and deliberately litters the environment onto local authorities the main responsibility with it. for the administration and implementation of Because of the way this legislation is its provisions. Although hon. members have framed, it is going to be very difficult to not yet been told-I will have to wait till distinguish between those two types. I am the Bill is printed to satisfy myself on the sure all would agree that the deliberate point-I have no doubt in my mind at this litterbug deserves far greater punishment stage that that responsibility will rest squarely than the careless litterbug. The careless on the shoulders of local authorities. For litterbug needs better education to keep their sake, I hope I am wrong. reminding him of the litter problem. The Although I am critical of the provisions deliberate litterbug has a clear knowledge that I. expect will be contained in the Bill, that he is breaking the moral law of our I am happy to see that steps are at la~t being community by leaving his rubbish where it taken to introduce legislation to control a will interfere with and become a nuisance problem that has existed in the State for to other persons. 2652 Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill

Certainly the Bill will provide an answer I say unhesitatingly that it is the responsi­ to some of the litter problems. Perhaps bility of the Government to underwrite the in Brisbane and some of the bigger pro­ cost of implementing this legislation, particu­ vincial cities it will be relatively easy to larly in the case of the small shire councils implement the legislation by using members and local authorities in the smaller towns of of the Police Force. However, I share the this State, who cannot afford to employ full­ thoughts of the hon. member for Ipswich time officers. I think the Minister will agree East that this will mean that another task, with me that in his own area, and also in which is not really police work, will be other shires, most of the littering of roads is foisted onto the already over-worked Police caused by itinerants travelling through them Force. and not by people resident in the shires them­ selves. People throughout the State are very When considering this legislation, we must conscious of this litter problem, but the remember that it will apply to all local motorist is perhaps the greatest offender, and, authority areas, and the Minister would be as a litterbug, he can move quite freely from the first to agree that it will be very one part of the State to any other part. It is difficult to implement it in the country not his own back yard or front street that he areas. The first reason for this was touched is littering when he indiscriminately throws on briefly by the hon. member for Ipswich things away. East. Who is going to pay the full-time officers to be appointed by the local authori­ Such a person, of course, is very difficult to ties? It is all very well to say that the catch, and I believe that persistent offenders local authorities will obtain finance from in this regard, whether they be motorists or the penalties that are imposed. I think others, should be covered by some type of the Minister will agree that the Isisford provision similar to that covering drunken Shire, some of the other western shires in drivers. Both offenders create problems on his area, some of the coastal shires, such as the road and the litterbug should be subjected the Bowen Shire, and even some of the to some type of licence suspension, as is the SJ?aller provincia~ cities will find it extremely drunken driver, if he persistently offends difficult to obtam the necessary additional against this legislation whilst motoring any­ finance to meet the cost of employing full­ where in the State. He represents a danger time council officers for this purpose. They to other road-users and is usually polluting will have to be full-time officers to do the an area that is entirely divorced from the job properly. one in which he himself resides. In enacting this legislation, it is the J see many other problems that will be responsibility of the Government to under­ created by this legislation, some of them write the cost to local authorities of imple­ relating to jurisdiction. I should like to menting it. As has been pointed out know who will be the responsible authority. by the hon. member for Ipswich East, it It is no use the Minister saying that this is all very well to foist this extra cost point is covered, as the problem arises in upon them, but it is another example of connection with almost every other Act in an additional load being placed on local the State dealing with areas where local authorities. They have many such responsi­ authorities, river trusts, harbour boards and bilities. so on have jurisdiction. For instance, where a river trust is responsible for a river flowing Local authorities are accepting a responsi­ through a local authority area, or which bility of the Department of Health by perhaps is a boundary between two local providing injections. Certainly the Depart­ authority areas-as occurs in the city of ment of Health provides the vaccine3 but Mackay and in other cities and towns in this the shires are meeting the cost of admimsler­ State-who is responsible for the various ing the injections. On behalf of the Lands aspects of litter in that stream or on its Department, local authorities have to face banks? the problem posed by noxious weeds and This problem will crop up if the legislation plants. The Department of Harbours and is not specific enough to cover it. I sincerely Marine introduced a system of jetties and hope it is, but judging from the information boat ramps, but the local authorities are we have received today, I think it will be responsible for maintaining them even difficult to determine responsibility. Some though they get no financial return from reserves on the sea front come under the them. They are called upon to provide jurisdiction of the Department of Harbours access roads and, in some cases, lighting and Marine, yet no responsible officer of that and other facilities. department is stationed anywhere near them. Local authorities are also responsible for Litter is frequently found between low- and the improved standard of street lighting in high-water mark on beaches. The control of our community. More and more responsi­ these areas will present problems that will bilities are being foisted upon them. Traffic have to be faced under this Bill and by its engineering is another classic example. The legislators. provincial cities are spending a lot of money Another point that was raised related to on traffic engineering today. They get no trustees who hold trusts over reserves. Such return from motor vehicle registration fees, trustees will be responsible for administering which pay for the Main Roads Department's this legislation, but just how far does the traffic-engineering work. legislation go? Nearly all showgrounds and Litter Bill [2 MARCH) Litter Bill 2653 exhibition grounds throughout the State are such as schools, or to deal with any com­ controlled by trusts which are administered plaint that is made about the Jack of hygiene by responsible men. What responsibility will in them. Will :this Bill impose .some type of these men or the various show societies have penalty upon Government departments that under this legislation? From what was said create litter? by the Minister, literally everybody wh:J Many other points could be raised. How­ drops a carton, a stick. or anv bit of rubbish ever, I believe tha,t this is good and timely on a showground will in fact- be liable for a le.gislation. The local authorities in Queens­ penalty under this legislation. Fach dav rub­ land want to see its provisions implemented, bish is left ,lying on any exhibition gi·ound. but they also want the Government to Let us consrder also a racecourse or a foot­ accept its responsibility. They certainly do ball ground. Again, these are public reserves not want to see 1he State Government shelve held in trust. Does the legislation cover this the whole of the burden onto their shoulders. type of activity? Are the racecourses, foot­ ball grounds and cricket grounds in this State Mr. R. E. MOORE (Windsor) (2.44 p.m.): covered by the Bill, and is every person who I agree that there is a need for this legisla­ deposits rubbish on them liable to a penalty? tion, but I do have certain misgivings about I think we have to look at this problem. the penalty provisions. To some extent I .Mr. R. E. M():()«: They are, in effect, may be off side with the majority of Govern­ pnvate property. ment members in this respect. Mr. CASEY: In introduoincr the measure The proposal to compel a person who t~e Minister referred to. the "'fact that per­ dumps litter to clean up the mess he has sistent offenders, or maJOr offenders, could created is worthy of merit. That is the type I If be taken to court for dumping litter. He of provision .that favour most of all. a referred, too, to on-the-spot fines. One child or an older person writes obscenities question that came immediately to my mind on a wall, it is fair enough for someo·ne in was: how will children be affected by the authority to tell him to get a scrubbing legislrution? Does it contain any provision brush and clean them off. Likewise, it is that covers children? The only other leois­ fair enough to ~ell a person who chops down labion in this State that refers to on-the-spot a decorative tree on a footpath to replace it with another .tree and tend it. fines covers parking and traffic offences. Of co~rse, only persons over 17 years of age are The hon. member for Sandgate referred entitled to hold driving licences, and those to minimum fines, but minimum fines can­ persons are dealt with in the ordinary courts not be set. The fine must be left to the not in the Children's Court. ' discretion of the magistrate. He said that As we know, children can be educated on he thought on-the-spot fines of $10 should the problem of litter, but what will happen b(} imposed. A fine of $10 for dropping to those children who deposit Jolly papers a cigarette butt or a bus ticket would be and other rubbish, say, outside their school exorbitant. The deterrent effect of detection tuckshops and corner stores? Where do and the imposition of a minimum fine would children who deposit litter stand under the be sufficient. It is not necessary to impose provision relative to on·the-spot fines? Every heavy fines on those who drop litter and parent must be concerned about that point are detected. The fine for a first offence and we, as legislators, must be concerned should be salutary; it should not amount about it, too. I have not heard the Minister to more than $1 or two. I favour a fine refer to that point, and I believe that he of $1 for a first offence of dropping a has a responsibility to tell us what will paltry item such as a cigarette butt or a happen to children who offend against the bus ticket. According to its definition, litter provisions of the Bill. could include leaves that blew from a tree into someone's property. After all, paper In addition, the Minister should tell us is only wood, and tobacco is a weed. what will happen when Government depart­ ments deposi·t litter. Mr. Hughes: If Col Bennett were appre­ Mr. Davis: That is right; they are the big hended for painting ''Jones Must Go" signs, ones. what do you think that would bring as a fine? 'Mr. CASEY: In fact, some Government departments are the biggest offenders, as my Mr. R. E. MOORE: I think that would colleague the hon. member for Brisbane is probably get him a leather medal. aware in facing the problem created by the The chance of being caught should be waste -that flows from the Mayne railway a sufficient deterrent. I do not think this yards into Breakfast Creek. Thalt problem should be police work. Despite what hon. was referred to in .the session before the members opposite have said, I think it is recess. In the large cities and towns, Govern­ a job for the local authorities. It should be ment depart!nents are persistent offenders. In the job of persons who are responsible for trying to administer the law, the local detecting people dropping litter. The oolice authorities in those places 5trike a pretty are already regarded in sufficiently bad light tough snag when .the State Government is because of their dealings with traffic and other the offender. Local authorities in country matters that are not in fact crimes. They areas find that their health inspectors have should not have another such burden placed no power to inspect Government premises, on them. They should be regarded as the 2654 Litter Bill [2 MARCH] litter Bill

friends of society, not the enemies, as they happen where there are insufficient recep­ will be if this work is made their tacles, and this is another local authority responsibility. problem. When we introduce such legislation, I Mr. Murray: He could have tomato sauce become worried about Parkinson's law. In oozing out between his fingers. effect, will we have an army of officers, employed at great cost, who will have to Mr. R. E. MOORE: That is true. impose a certain number of fines to pay their That is all I wish to say. Although I wages. have misgivings, I think this is worthwhile Me. JeiiJSen: It could be done by justices legislation. However, as I said, I would of the peace, as the hon. member for Sand­ not like to see a minimum fine of $1 0 gate suggested. There are thousands of for, say, dropping a cigarette butt. them. Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (2.53 Mr. R. E. MOORE: If the hon. member p.m.): My colleagues have, quite rightly, wants to know we have about 40,000. There expressed concern at the loading of extra may be too many, but this is not a job for duties onto the Police Force and the thrusting them. We should not turn justices of the of an extra responsibility onto local govern­ peace into policemen. That has been my ment in enforcing this legislation. I support belief in many matters. I should like to their contention as being entirely correct. be able to take action in certain instances, I wish to voice some further opinions on but I certainly would not like to do so this legislation. In my opinion, it is as relative to someone who dropped a bus ticket. drab and colourless as the garbage it is The hon. member for Mackay made a supposed to control. I say this seriously good point when he referred to the respon­ and deliberately. I am sure that the Minister sibility of a child who drops something. for Local Government will not go home Suppose a motorist is driving along and a tonight and slumber in the knowledge that child in the car drops a lolly paper from he has done something for the environment, the window. Is the motorist to be appre­ and I am just as certain that the litterbug hended because he is the driver or the will not go to bed tonight in fear and parent of the child? Should he be appre­ trembling because of this legislation. hended and fined because of the child's The Bill correctly deals with the abate­ action, or should the child be charged? If ment of litter, not the elimination of litter. a child who was not a member of the family, because, in this enlightened age, it really and had no relationship to the driver, does not deal with the problem. It will dropped a lolly paper from the car window, not eliminate the litter problem from our would the driver, in effect, be liable as his cities and roads, although it might in some brother's keeper? I wonder where we are way abate it. There is no way in the going. I agree that we must have legislation world that such legislation would do any­ to control litter, but I cannot get away from thing worth while towards restoring the my belief that a fine of $10, if a "child quality of the environment so far as the inadvertently drops a lolly paper out of a litter problem is concerned. window, is excessive. Let me illustrate my concern by quoting Mr. Marginson: Did you vote against this from the report of the Environmental Pollu­ Bill in caucus? tion Panel which was set up in 1963 by the •President of the United States, following Mr. R. E. MOORE: We do not vote in publication of a book written by Rachael our caucus. Things do not go to a vote. Carson. The problem of litter in the United They are discussed. No-Dne is prevented States is reported as being of this mag­ from having his say. Unlike members of nitude- the Opposition, we are not directed. They "A large fraction of all consumer goods get directions, we do not. As they can ends up as urban solid waste, though see, I am allowed to say what I like significant amounts are salvaged and without any fear of recrimination. They recycled back to industry. dare not do that. "Scrap iron and steel are generated at The CHAIRMAN: Order! I appeal to a rate of 12 to 15 million tons a year, of hon. members on both sides of the Chamber which about a third consists of derelict to keep their voices down while an hon. automobiles. The fraction recovered for member is speaking. If they must talk use has declined substantially. Recovery in loud tones, I ask them to retire. of other scrap metals in 1963 included at least 9· 4,000 tons of copper, 493,000 tons Mr. R E. MOORE: If we are to have of lead, and 268,000 tons of zinc. litter legislation. a sufficient number of "From 25 to 30 million tons of paper receptacles must be provided. Does a man products produced annually, about 10 who has eaten a meat pie with a sprinkling million tons of waste paper were salvaged of Holbrook's sauce on it have to carry in 1964 and used to make new paper. In the paper, saturated with sauce, for two 1962, about 263,000 long tons of reclaimed or three miles to a receptacle, or does he rubber were used in the United States, have to put it into his pocket? That could about 15 per cent. of all rubber. The Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill 2655

same year about 10 per cent. of the 8 I have in mind some of the imitation billion pounds of plastics produced was cordials that are marketed in such containers recovered and reconverted. as a plastic statue of Yogi Bear or a kan­ "Each year we must dispose of 48 garoo, or something like that. Once the billion cans (250 per person), 26 billion child loses interest in the container as a toy bottles and jars (135 per person), 65 the article becomes potential litter for the billion metal and plastic caps and crowns roads. (338 per person), plus more than half a An ice-cream company-! do not know billion dollars worth of miscellaneous which one, but the name does not matter­ packaging material. marketed ice-cream in a plastic container "Only a small part of our solid wastes shaped like a miniature .tennis ball. Literally is salvaged and processed for reuse, even millioms of those containers must have been though the industries engaged in repro­ kicked around ,the streets of our ciuies. I.t is cessing wast·e materials operate at a level not enough to fine the person on the end of 5 to 7 billion dollars a year. The of the chain who must dispose of this unsalvaged remainder represents a vast garbage, whether it be beer "stubbies" or beer potential for litter and pollution." cans; it is time we got down to sensible and I also draw attention to the most recent solid thinking in a 1971 society and under­ issue of "Your Environment", an English took research into the ways of minimisrrng publication, in which it is stated that the potential litter in our community. In the amount of refuse and waslie created in post-war days there has been a great upsurge Britain is increasing at an estimated rate of of litter in this country and possibly every 4 per cent. a year. other country. This upsurge is associated with packing at!litudes and, as I have just Adverting to the United States experience, outlined, marketing attli.tudes. as far back as 1963 the per-capita rate of contribution to national waste had risen to Unfortunately, much of the litter is com­ an amount of 1,600 lb., or almost three­ posed of =stitue:nts that are not biode­ quarters of a ton a year for each person, gradable; if you bury it, it remains under­ and the waste problem in the United States ground for ever because there are no soil has reached such proportions that the Pre­ bacteria to break it down. While we have sident's Science Advisory Committee, whose this unrestricted packaging in non-returnable findings I have just quoted, did not know containers, throw-away cans and rip-top what to suggest could be done to eliminate bottles, we will have the very basis of a the problem. So serious has it become in the pollution problem that fining the litterbug United States that scientists in that country will not cure. It will not have an appreciable have been asked to carry out investigations effect on the number of cans and car.tons into ways of reducing .the amount of waste tossed onto our highways. that is steadily accumulating each year and It is ridiculous to suggest that the already which, on a per-capita basis, is increasing overworked Police Force, in addition to their each year. duties and responsibilities in preventing crime, Unfortunately, I was unable to find com­ can police this legislation. We have made parable figmes for the Australian popula­ membe.rs of the Police Force fauna pro­ tion, but it is reasonable to assume, in these tectors. Now we are asking them to run days of new forms of packaging, that the around after the litterbug. As I say, it is Australian figures would be similar to those ridiculous to place the implementation of this of the United States in 1963. In other legislation in the hands of people who are words, each Australian citizen would at the already overloaded with work in the hope present time be contributing to the amount that they can do anything worth while of waste that must be disposed of at a rate towards the mitigation of pollution. approximating 1,600 lb. of solid waste each I am not being critical of local authorities year, and local authorities must cope with when I make my next comments. On the one this waste. Very little of it-I believe that hand the Minister is putting into the hands the figure was only 14 per cent. in the of local autho11ities the right to fine the United States-is salvaged, and the litterbug because he dumps beer cans and remainder becomes a potential litter "stubbies"-if he can afford them in these problem. days of high prices-but on the other hand I cannot see how anybody, when con­ the same local authorities will be permitting fronted with the figures that show how this the erection of hideous signs that pollute problem has developed year by year, can the highways from one end of the State honestly feel proud and justify his actions to the other. In my opinion these signs by saying, "We will intmduce a Bill to are just as degrading to the countryside as provide for the fining of litterbugs," and any "stubby", beer can or other contaaner. then go home feeling satisfied that he has As one drives the full length of the State done something about the problem of our one sees that every mile of good forest land environment. is interlaced with signs advertising Toohey's Let us look at some of the things placed lager, somebody's Wunderwax, or something before children that are potential litter. The else. first I mention I will not refer to as soft If we are to make a serious attempt to drink as I think it is the greatest load of restore 'the quality of the environment, let rubbish ever poured into children's stomachs. us look at these things in a sensible manner. 2656 Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill

Why fine the litterbug because he dumps a will, in future, have to provide a service on a beer can, while a local authority is applauded minimum-charge basis to enable people to for permitting the erection of a sign in the dispose of their rubbish. middle of the beautiful bush countryside? Whilst I have made certain derogatory To me it is not a balanced line of thinking remarks about the legislation, it does not at all. necessarily mean that I do not support its The Minister talks about fining the litter­ principles. I believe that the person who bug who tosses a beer can on the street, but deliberately litters the countryside is just as what about all the litter that blows out of big a culprit as any other law-breaker. I trucks? Every day as we drive through the have always believed that, but at the same streets of Brisbane we can see loads on time I do not think we are going to cure trucks that are not securely tied down or not what is an international problem in this way. covered properly so that litter blows off the This is not a problem peculiar to Queens­ vehicles. land, Brisbane or Australia; it is an inter­ I should like to know whether the person national problem that each year, unfortu­ who unintentionally litters a highway because nately, is steadily worsening. Until the prob­ he has not secured a load properly is just as lem is looked at in a sensible light, until a liable to a fine as the one who heaves a scientific panel of experts is set up to look at "stubby" out of a car window. These prob­ the question of what is creating this ever­ lems will arise in the enforcing of this increasing amount of litter per capita and to legislation. investigate how it can best be dealt with the problem will not be cured. How can it' best I am not being in any way critical of the be cured? Must we, in some instances return Brisbane City Council or any other local to an insistence that certain produ~ts can authority in Queensland, particularly those in only be marketed in returnable containers? the larger cities and towns, but there are I am not saying that this should be a stand­ never enough rubbish tips to put one within ard practice. There may be many reasons reasonable distance of many suburbs. lf we why it is desirable that certain products are to encourage people to take rubbish to should be marketed in non-returnable these dumps, they must be more conveniently containers. situated and more evenly distributed through­ Whether or not we insist that certain out the city of Brisbane and other similar containers should be made of a substance places. such as glass, which can be salvaged and I applaud local authorities. I think it was re-used, or whether or not we insist that my colleague the hon. member for Ipswich other containers should be biodegradable, East who said that they were the only bodies so that once they are dumped in certain who had made any sort of attempt to provide areas they will be broken down by bacteria, regular garbage-disposal services and once-a­ or whether or not we insist on some other year clean-ups. I believe that they have done system of elimination or abatement of litter, a tremendous job in this regard, but I do not we should tackle the problem at its source, think that the amount of rubbish that not at the other end. which is all that this accumulates around a normal household can Bill hopes to do. be adequately catered for by once-a-year The Minister is hoping to overcome the clean-ups, particularly when many people litter problem merely be fining people. Until have no vehicles or trailers, or other means the Government grapples with the root cause of getting rubbish to a dump. of the increase in litter in Australia it will The time is fast approaching when local not have achieved any real purpose. I do authorities will have to engaged in a syste­ not believe that the Bill will do anything matic cleaning-up of this sort, even if it is other than perhaps have some minimal effect. necessary to impose a small charge, to enable We all know that the public are inc.:Jineu the householder without the wherewithal to to toe the line when new legislation is dispose of rubbish over and above that passed, but that after an Act has been in removed by the normal garbage service force for, say, 12 months the public dis­ to regularly enlist the services of the local regard it entirely and most probably havG authority in this regard. I do not think that forgotten it. So while I subscribe to the many citizens would object to paying a contention that a litterbug is a culprit, at reasonable charge if it would enable them to the same time I do not think this legislation dispose of their rubbish regularly instead of will help overcome the problem. having to wait for once-a-year, voluntary I urge the Government to set up the clean-up by local authorities. type of panel that I have suggested in an effort to prevent litter from being dumped I believe that the figures I quoted this in such huge quantities as are dumped in afternoon when I said that an ever-increasing other parts of the world. When the Govern­ amount of rubbish is be;ng distributed on a ment conquers the problem at its source per-capita basis-to the extent of 1,600 lb. a it will have achieved something. year-demonstrate that this problem is reach­ ing such a degree that the average house­ Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (3.12 p.m.): holder cannot cope with it. He certainly This morning the hon. member for Sandgate cannot cope with it on a once-a-year basis, fully outlined the attitude of the Opposition and I reiterate that I think local authorities to the Bill, and be was supported by members Litter Bill [2 MARCH] Litter Bill 2657 of his committee, who, generally, are ex­ read about it, I had one of them placed in members of local authorities in Queensland. my car to encourage my wife and family to It has been very interesting for me to listen use the receptacle for litter rather than throw to the contributions made by those hon. it out of the car windows. members on the effect of the litter problem I am concerned about non-returnable con­ on local authorities, particularly the costs tainers that become litter. Glass cans are that they incur in cleaning up litter. now being used widely throughout the State Two or three matters concern me. The for bee.r and soft drinks. Parents and citizens' first is the imposition of on-the-spot fines. associations are the greatest collectors of It is to be hoped that the Minister will bottles for fund-raising purposes. It was consult the Minister in charge of police brought to my notice recently that parents on the extra work that will devolve upon and citizens' associations are accepting glass the Police Force in this State in implement­ cans. I asked what value they had and I ing the provisions of the Bill. For some was informed that the associations get 12c time, the shortage of personnel in the 'Poiice a dozen for them, which is what they get Force has been a topic of discussion in for returnable beer bottles. this Chamber, particularly on the Opposition As well as imposing penalbies on John side. The ratio of police to population and Citizen, we shoold encourage firms, who the areas that they are required to cover have some responsibility in this matter, to are matters inherent to the debate on this market their goods in returnable bottles on legislation. Outside the metropolitan area which a small deposit is paid. If children and provincial centres of Queensland the knew .that any sort of bottle had some headquarters of local authont1es are far value at a store, the problem would be partly removed from the seaside resorts and other overcome. places that suffer most from the depositing of litter by members of the public. It seems For some years, rubbish has been dumped to me that the responsibility for policing in low-lying areas and covered with cinders provisions of the Bill will be a mammoth obtained from power-houses which were task for the local authorities. As I have operating on coal. In this way sporting ovals indicated, the Bill will impose an added have been created. The Brisbane City Council burden on an already unoerstaffed Police has done an excellent job during the past Force. 10 years to keep the city free of rubbish, but now finds it is running out of suitable Arguments have been advanced about the areas and is looking for an a1ternative solu­ ways and means to be adopted in overcoming tion to this problem. the problem, and what the hon. member for Sandgate said is accepted by all hon. mem­ My personal opinion is that we should be bers. Action is taken by local authorities endeavouring to educate the people, par­ on illegal dumping of rubbish, but the low ticularly the young people- fines imposed by magistrates have had little Mr. O'Donnell: An excellent point. effect. We must start somewhere in this field, and it seems to me that, rather than have Mr. NEWTON: We should educate the people in all local authorities running around people instead of believing, as we have with trying to fme people, we should nrst con­ previous legislation, .that penalties are the centrate on education. It should be the answer. I do not believe they are the answer. main theme. Education is the answer. This policy has been adopted in a number of metropolitan Recently, the hon. member for Clayfield high schools. Recently, the Minister for and I returned from New Zealand. It was Labour and Tourism opened an anti-litter very noticeable on our trip that people were campaign at Cavendish Road High SchooL being educated in keeping their cities tidy. to make the students litter conscious in the Wherever we went we saw slogans urging school reserve. If the problem can be people to be tidy, and rubbish tins were handled in this way, the people will everywhere--as close together as I have ever co-operate. They will come to realise that seen them-all helping psychologically to !in orde.r to have a beautiful State, they must impress upon people what the authorities ensure that litter is placoo in receptacles require. We found that New Zealand cities provided for it. were very clean. I imagine that it must have taken a long time to educate the people, Mr. LEE (Yeronga) (3.24 p.m.): First of but it seems that these little slogans, which all I congmtulate the Minister and his officers are to be found everywhere, have had the on the introduction of this legislation. I agree desired psychological effect. that it is long overdue. However, by delaying The smallest items of litter are probably its iDJtroducti.oo, we have been able to gain attributable to smokers. Nothing is worse from the experience in other States. than dead matches and cigarette butts all The hon. member for Sandgate, the over the place. Many people return dead Opposition's shadow Minister for Local Gov­ matches to match boxes. That could be done ernment and Electricity, said he was very with cigarette butts, not for the purpose of happy with the Bill. This is, of course. making a bigger cigarette later but to keep very pleasing, because not often do we get cities and towns tidy. The Government's agreement from the Opposition benches on action in having receptacles placed in Min­ legislation that we bring down. Howeve~. isterial cars appealed to me. As soon as I the hon. member for Salisbury, as usual, 2658 Litter Bill (2 MARCH] Litter Bill

is not satisfied; he says that this legislation everybody overseas, the problem would be will do no good at all. I disagree with solved much quicker. We call many of him; in my opinion, it must do some good. these places backward countries. At the conclusion of his speech, the Minister said, "I do not consider that the punitive Mr. Dean: You might. We don't. measures are the complete answer to the Mr. LEE: I have heard the hon. member whole problem." I agree with that state­ say that. Let us put it this way: they do ment. The hon. member for Salisbury, from not have the standard of living enjoyed his attitude, would like all people placed under this Government. in gaol as soon as they dropped a cigarette butt or any other rubbish. His was a "slap­ One of the countries thart I visited was them-into-gaol" attitude. Japan. As all members know, it has a large population, and all the people live in a small The proposed legislation is a start. Let area of .the islands of Japan. On •the day I us at least start a programme of education, visited Expo '70, 355,000 people went through and the Bill will do just that. I agree with the turnstiles. About 35,000 to 50,000 people the hon. members for Salisbury and Belmont a day go through the turnstiles at the R.N.A. when they say that one of our greatest show. In most parts of the ground, par­ problems is educating the public. I should ticularly the eating areas, a person can hardly like to illustrate this point by referring to put his foot to th,e ground without treading what I saw on an overseas trip that I was on a piece of paper or some other rubbish. privileged to make not many months ago. At Expo I was continually oonscious of how However, before doing so, I should perhaps free of litter the ground was. I am speaking sound one noie of warning on something that as an Australian who has many times thrown could become a worry to me. I hope the a cigarette butt on the ground. Most hon. power given to officers of local authorities to members would have unoonsciously flicked inflict on-the-spot fines will not be abused. a match into a corner or knocked their pipe If fines are imposed honestly and with dis­ out somewhere. At Expo I became immed­ cretion on people who are litterbugs, the iately aware of the fact that I was about to fines will be deserved. But if such powers l!hrow away a match or cigarette butt. I are abused, it would be worrying to me. even found myself putting a dead match It would be a tragic thing if these powers back in the box. Small Japanese children, were abused merely as a means of placing of 5, 6 and 7 years of age would take the money in the coffers of local authorities. various non-returnable oontainers or cartons However, I have enough faith in local qunte a distance, if necessary, to a rubbish authority officers to know that they will bin. As the hon. member for Belmont and not do that. I hope that some day they others have said, it is very important to will look in "Hansard" and see where I educate young children. At Expo I saw have said these things. these young children demonstrating just what can be achieved with an education Mr. Davies: Which officers are going to programme. handle it? I do not believe that the punitive pro­ Mr. LEE: The hon. member is in enough visions of the Bill will mean a great deal, trouble with the A.LP. and its decisions although they will be a deterrent. More without getting "stuck into" me. I also importantly, the Bill will be the start of an notice that my remarks have brought the education campaign. hon. member for Salisbury back into the I was at Expo on Australia Day when the Chamber. After all, all I have repeated Prime Minister opened the Australian is exactly what he said. I am certainly exhibit. Almost every country in the world not going to apologise to him. was represented. As it was Australia Day Mr. SHERRINGTON: I rise to a point of there were many Australians present. The order. The hon. member for Yeronga has Australian sector was accommodated in a just said that he repeated exactly what I great plaza. The Australian Navy, Army and said. I am willing to bet him $10 now Air Force were all represented. The cere­ I mony continued for two or >three hours. I that at no time did advocate gaoling litter­ have never been ashamed to be an Aus­ bugs. Let him put his money up or shut tralian except on that day. It was lliOt for up. what the AustraLians did during the cere-. The CHAffiMAN: Order! The hon. mem­ mony. As I walked away from the plaza and ber for Salisbury has taken a point of looked back, I could see in one place a great order, but I am afraid I cannot accept it mass of litter just like you see at the R.N.A. as a point of order. showgrounds. In none of the areas occupied by representatives of other countries was Mr. Sherrington: Why doesn't he tell the there any litter. As I looked back to the truth? area that had been occupi,ed by Australians I could see a great mass of beer cans, beer Mr. LEE: As I was saying, in the early bottles, the remnants of fish and chips and part of last year I had the privilege of all sorts of packages. They hllid just dropped making a trip overseas. In those countries them at their feet. People from other coun­ one can see what is possible with education tries, who had been educated, took their campaigns. If we could afford to send rubbish to the proper places. Litter Bill [2 MARCH} Litter Bill 2659

system. This refuse, of course, drains into I do not think anybody could say that the channelling on the footpath. This, to my Bangkok has any grea~ scenery; it has huge way of thinking, is litter. Perhaps it is a ,canals which, in my opinion, are almost health matter, but to my way of thinking it is unhygienic. However, while I was there I a litter problem. It cerainly creates a stench took some photographs and h~d ~o open a problem. I have had the Health _Department package of film. As I was opemng 1t a young inspect the place on several occaswns. When­ lad came up to me and asked for a token or ever I have done this, the practice has gift. He said he was a Queen's Scout, stopped for a period, but then it has started although I would not know whether he was again. I believe that if such people are hit or not. I may have been "conned" into it. with a $100 fine or one of that order, they Nevertheless I was happy to give him the will certainly realise that they cannot keep on token. (Opposition laughter.) ignoring authority and causing discomfort to Hon. members opposite laugh because I many people living in the area. Hon. mem­ was "conned" into it, but if they listen to bers will appreciate what stale old prawn how sincere this child was relative to keeping heads smell like after a period. his city clean, they might learn the less~n Mr. Kaus: What must their home be like! I learned. This child came up to me and sa1d he was a Queen's Scout. Whilst this was Mr. LEE: The hon. member for Haw­ going on I was loading my camera. I thorne wonders what the home is like. Any­ screwed up the film package I had in my one who had a look at this kitchen would hand and threw it at the butt of a small not eat there. ornamental tree. The child, who was no The Bill is a start. I have had the more than 12 years of age, looked down privilege of reading the Minister's speech towards the butt of the tree where I had notes, and I realise that he has said this thrown this rubbish. He was not looking is not the be-all and end-all. But at least at me but at the packet I had thrown down the Government has faced up to the need and I found myself feeling so guilty at to introduce this legislation, and has not despoiling his city that I picked it up. I said brought in such savage legislation that mem­ to him "Here, you take it." He said, "No, bers of the public will not be allowed even sir I do not want it; you take it." I said, to walk and move. That is what members "What am I going to do with it?" He said, of the Opposition desire. "Couldn't you put it back in your camera case and when you get to your hotel put it Hon. W. A. R. RAE (Gregory-Minister in a rubbish bin?" That was a 12-year-old for Local Government and Electricity) (3.40 child telling me what to do and it was a p.m.), in reply: I feel that, in the main, valuable lesson of what can come from an the Committee is quite happy with the education campaign against disposing of introduction of the Bill. litter. Mr. Davies: Wait till we read it. Last week I was in Melbourne where, as Mr. RAE: I am quite certain that the the Minister said, similar legislation has be\Cn situation will not be changed even when operating for some time. As I drove along members of the Opposition do read it, and the Geelong highway I could not help but that they will go along with it. feel pleasure at the absence of beer cans, bottles and other rubbish. Along that high­ A number of hon. members raised certain way these things were conspicuous by their questions, and I can acknowledge their com­ absence. ments in two ways; I can either deal with them now or incorporate the replies in As some hon. members probably know, I my second-reading speech. However, I have a property at Roma and I quite fre­ should like to discuss a few matters at quently drive out there. At night-time a this stage. driver is often dazzled by the reflections of his headlights from bottles, tins and other The hon. member for Sandgate suggested material thrown along the highway. I think that the proposed penalties were too low. I do not think they are. I say that, because it is an utter disgrace. under similar legislation enacted in Victoria It is important that we start somewhere ample provision is made for the courts to and I believe that in this legislation we have be very strict with offenders and to fine taken the first step. I am confident that some them as much as $300. If the offenders good will be achieved. I do not want to see do not pay the fine they can be sentenced people being fined $300, $400 or $1,000, but to a term of imprisonment. Quite frankly, people who litter the countryside should be I do not think we want to get round to fined. By imposing some fines we have at doing that. As almost every hon. member 1east started an education campaign. By who spoke has said, the whole matter is hitting these people in the pocket we will centred on the need to implement an educa­ instil in them a desire to avoid repeating their tion programme. offence. The hon. member also referred to our I also hope that this legislation covers availing ourselves of the use of LP's. His something that has occurred in my electorate. suggestion is worthy of some merit, but Do not ask me to name the establishment; it if the local authorities, as constituted bodies. is a fish and chip shop where prawn heads wished to do that they could appoint peopie and so forth are put into the drainage in their own areas to perform those duties. 2660 Litter Bill [2 MARCH) Litter Bill

I was particularly pleased to hear the Some consternation has been registered speech by the hon. member for Chatsworth. about children being fined. Under the Bill a Obviously he has studied this problem, and child is treated in the same way as an adult. r know that he is activelv associated with but it would be left to the jurisdiction of the the Keep Australia Beau-tiful Council. I court. I am certain .that our judges are quite know, too, that he is charged with the capable of being fair, considerate and under­ feeling that we, as a Parliament, should do standing in handling any problems that arise_ something about litter control. This is pre­ cisely what the Bill does. I am very Mr. Casey: What about on-the-spot fines? c:rateful to the hon. member for Chats­ ~vorth for the concern that he has shown Mr. RAE: I should hardly think that on the matter of pollution, litter and environ­ trouble would arise. These men are all mental control. tempered with good, common sense. The hon. member for Ipswich East feels Mr. Sherrington: Why put this stupid littet­ that we are asking the local authorities to in the hands of children? shoulder the whole responsibility for imple­ menting this measure. I do not think that ?\Ir. RAE: I agree with the hon. member. is quite so, nor do I think the problems This is a matter that must be dealt with by are of the magnitude that some hon. members the Minister for Labour and Tourism. lL imagine. Someone has to implement these comes under his jurisdiction rather than measures. Under other Acts local authorities mine. I am trying to make a start with have the right to fine certain offenders up something that I feel will be loudly to $200, but that right has not been availed applauded throughout the State. of for the simple reason that a tremendous Like the hon. member for Salisbury, I am ~tmount of work is involved even before concerned about the despoiling of many of convictions can be obtained. The Local our attractive scenes. However, legislative Government Association has frequently asked control of this matter is out of my hands. me to introduce this legislation, and has There will have to be a complete review in said that the only effective way of imple­ another form. Although there is some menting it is by incorporating in it a measure of association, I could not control provision relative to the !Police Force. The it. I know that the hon. member is a Bi 11 is a very good start in the fight against dedicated conservationist, and that all these litter. things must be appalling to him. The hon. member for Mackay also dealt Mr. Sherrington: You must have enjoyed \V ith the need for education. I go along \vith his remarks. tHe also said that some my speech. shires are doing very little about the litter problem. On recent visits to a number Mr. RAE: I do not "knock" anybody's of western towns, I found the contrary to speeches. All hon. members are here to do be the ~ituation. They are doing a very their job, and that is how I like it. good job inasmuch as they have provided Mr. Sherrington: You aren't like the hon. Jumps on the outskirts of towns and erected member for Yeronga, who says things that 'igns informing people that dumps are, say, are completely untrue. half-a-mile ahead. All these things tie in with the pattern of educating the people, Mr. RAE: I will not comment on that and we have a snowballing effect throughout assertion. The hon. member for Yeronga the State. Oil companies have made sug­ made a very good point in his speech. gestions about the use of litter bags by motorists, and Esso intends to have supplies Mr. Sberrington: He is a litterbug. made and distributed. It is not likely that we can get an Esso service station Mr. RAE: No. Let us be quite fair. There in every town in the State, but that company are countries, such as Japan, which are as will help by providing clean bags at its clean as one could wish. In other places,. various stations. This is all a part of such as Scandinavia and Singapore, litter education. drives have been undertaken for many years and education has played its part by training Mr. Sherrington: With a bit of advertising the children first. The hon. member made a on the side. fine contribution in pointing out what can be gained by travel if we can avail ourselves Mr. RAE: I agree with the hon. member's of it. r~marks relative to the despoiling of trees and park lands with advertising signs. I leave further comment till the second-reading stage. Mr. Casey: I was referring more to the fact that the shires have not the nec~sary Motion (Mr. Rae) agreed to. financial resources. Resolution reported. Mr. RAE: Many Queensland shires are passing through a critical financial time, but FIRST READING it is hoped that their problems will eventually Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Rae, be ironed out. read a first time. Securities Industry Bill (2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill 2661

SECURITIES INDUSTRY BILL investment, that the stock market operate-, in a fair and open way and that unscrupulous SECOND READING people do not manipulate the market by Hon. P. R. DELAMOTHE (Bowen­ illegal means for their own profit. Minister for Justice) (3.51 p.m.): I move­ It must be realised, of course, that this Bill "That the Bill be now read a second does not operate alone in regard to the pro­ time." tection of investors. The existing compan~ This Bill has been introduced at a time when law contains very extensive provisions there is quite a deal of interest in, and public designed to protect investors. These provi­ discussion of, stock exchange .transactions, sions have been, and are currently being. particularly those arising out of the highly reviewed by the Eggleston Committee with speculative and volatile mining market. The a view to seeing if they can be strengthened. Bill, however, is not limited to, or even The company legislation introduced during primarily directed at, the mining speculation. this session will substantially revise existing law in relation to take-overs, investigation of More than two years ago the Standing companies and accounts and audit, and will Committee of Commonwealth and State also require substantial shareholders to dis­ Attorneys-General entered UJlO'll a considera­ close their holdings and dealings. The truth tion. of the desirability generally of intro­ of the matter is, of course, that this Bill must ducing legislation to impose, for the first not be considered in isolation, but rather as time, some controls on the formation of part of an over-all legislative scheme designed stock exchanges and on the operations of as part of a Commonwealth-wide approach stockbrokers, sharebrokers, dealers, etc. The to the protection of investors. matter has been under constant reVJiew by The Bill indeed is a most important the Standing Committee and •the depart­ measure. For the first time in the history of mental officers of the States, who have con­ Queensland there will be a broadly based ferred on various oocasions with representa­ scheme to cover the whole of the securities tives of the Australian stock exchanges. industry. Hitherto the Brisbane Stock The Bill has been under discussion for Exchange and its members and those more than a year at meetings of the Standing operating on its fringes, in common with Committee. the London Stock Exchange and with those Over the years there has been some in the other States of the Commonwealth, agitation for the establishment within Aus­ have virtually enjoyed freedom from legis· tralia of a body similar in funotion to that lative restriction. This is in contrast with of the Federal Securities and Exchange the position that exists in the United States, Commission which exists in the United the provinces of Canada, South Africa, New States of America, and at present in Aus­ Zealand and India. tralia a Senate select commhtee is investi­ The Bill proposes to continue the system gating the need for such a body. The of self-regulation of stock exchanges which Standing Committee has given this question has worked so well in the past. Stock its close attention during its deliberations and exchanges and their members will, however. has decided to await the findings of the be subject to distinct forms of statutory Senate select committee. control. At the meeting of the Standing Committee l\fr. J'ensen: What does that mean? held in New Zealand in February, 1970, all States endorsed the principles contained un Dr. DELAMOTHE: Control by legislation. this Bill. Certain aspects of the Bill were Another important feature of the Bill is given consideration at later meetings of the that for the first time it is proposed to Standing Committee, in Sydney in July, and license dealers and their employees, and in Perth in October of last year. The form investment advisers and their employees. of the Bill has been settled by the Standing These areas have not been subject to the Committee and it has been drawn so as to same traditional controls as have governed provide for a proper reciprocal basis between the stock exchange, and it is considered desir­ States. able at this stage to bring under some degree The Standing C01runi.ttee's proposals have of control these activities, in many ways akin :already been implemented by legislation in to those of the stock market, which are not New South Wales, Victoria and Western at present subject to control. Australia. Similar legislation is expected to Provision is made for certain agreements. be introduced in the other States and terri­ termed "exempt agreements", to be excluded tories in the near future. from the range of transactions which con­ The Securities Industry Bill does not pur­ stitute "dealing in securities". This means port to prevent speculation. It is, and always that those whose business involves entering must ultimately remain, the responsibility into exempt agreements will not for that 0f the individual investor to make an reason alone need to obtain a dealer's licence. ·informed judgment concerning the advisa­ Newspaper publishers are excluded from bility of any particular investment. The the definition of "investment advisers". Thi< purpose and major object of this Bill is to will ensure that while on the one hand no ensure that there is adequate protection for bona fide newspaper proprietor or financial lhe public in the field of stock-market journalist will need to be licensed under the 2662 Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill

Act, on the other hand publishers of "tipping Brisbane Stock Exchange, to be submitted to sheets" will need a licence to carry on their the Minister, who will have the right to trade. disallow them. Representations have been made to various In approving the Brisbane Stock Exchange, Attorneys-General of the States by several the Bill, of course, also approves its present bodies and organisations for complete or listing requirements, which have been exam­ partial exemption from the licensing provi­ ined in detail by me and my departmental sions, and the consequential accounts and officers. The most important provisions are audit requirements of the Act. aimed at securing full and speedy disclosure The Standing Committee of Attorneys­ of all relevant information and the require­ General is of the view that it is inappropriate ments are in fact considerably more rigorous and probably impossible to give effect in the than the prospectus requirements of the legislation to all the circumstances which may Companies Act are or can be. The exchange justify exemption, and that it is necessary to has always been most amenable to sugges­ have a relatively wide power to grant tions, and my Government is confident, exemption by regulation. should the need be seen to exist, that the exchange will co-operate in strengthening any Accordingly a regulation-making power has of its listing requirements. been included so as to ensure that all the persons who can show that the public interest The proposed Queensland legislation con­ does not require them to hold a licence, and tains a further provision which does not as thus comply with the ancillary requirements yet appear in the legislation implemented in of the legislation, may be exempted. New South Wales, Victoria and Western Austraila. This provision, which is set out in The Bill provides for the administration of clause 15, requires a stock exchange-- this legislation to be entrusted to the Com­ (i) to give written notification to the missioner for Corporate Affairs. Provision Commisioner of its listing requirements is also made for the appointment of such and of any rescission, alteration or addi­ Assistant Commissioners for Corporate Affairs tion thereto; as are required to assist the Commissioner. (ii) to give written notification to the It is proposed that the Registrar of Com­ Commissioner of the fact of delisting of panies and Commercial Acts shall be deemed any corporation on account of a failure to to have been appointed the Commissioner for comply with listing requirements; and Corporate Affairs. (iii) to give written notification to the A series of powers very similar to those Commissioner of any failure of a corpora­ contained in the Companies Act are provided tion to comply with listing requirements in in the Bill. These provisions will authorise circumstances where the committee of the the Commissioner to inspect the books and exchange consider such action is. records of licensees and others to see that the warranted. Act is being complied with and will authorise The Bill requires persons engaged in the· the Minister to appoint an inspector to securities industry to be licensed by the investigate share dealings where it seems to Commissioner. Three classes of licences are h ;m to be necessary to do so in the public provided: dealer's, investment adviser's and interest. representative's. The Bill prohibits the establishment or The Commissioner may grant or renew a maintenance of a stock market that is not the licence subject to such conditions or restric­ stock market of a stock exchange. The tions as he thinks fit, and an applicant for a Brisbane Stock Exchange is a "stock dealer's licence is required to lodge security exchange" by definition, so that no further of $10,000. approval is needed by that body. There are no other stock exchanges presently operating The Commissioner is required to keep a in this State. By the terms of the Bill it is register of the holders of current licences for necessary for any other stock exchange estab­ public inspection. Only the information lished in the future to receive the Minister's available on this Register will be available to approval. the public. Before approval may be granted the Mini­ Any person aggrieved by a refusal by the· ster will need to be satisfied that at least 10 Commissioner to grant or renew a licence or members will carry on business in competi­ by a decision of a Magistrates Court cancel­ tion, that the rules of the body make satis­ ling his licence or disqualifying him is given factory provision for certain specified items, a right of appeal to the District Court. including listing requirements, exclusion from Dealers, investment advisers, dealer's and membership of undesirable persons, and investment representatives, stockbrokers· expulsion, etc., of members whose conduct employees and financial journalists are falls below the required standards, and that required to keep a register of securities in the interests of the public will be served by which they have an interest. The records to the granting of his approval. Once approved, be maintained are of all dealings in securities the internal management of an exchange will by a public company which are traded on be largely its own affair, but further provi­ any stock exchange in Australia. The record sion is made for any amendment to the rules must extend to shares in which there is an of an exchange, and this will include the indirect interest, whether under a trust or Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill 2663

through a controlled company. The purpose The proposed Queensland legislation also of this requirement is to discourage unethical contains a provision for the "freezing" of practices by those in a special position to dealers' trust accounts. To this end it is exploit the securities market. proposed .to apply section 3 (c) of the Trust Accounts Act in respect of dealers' trust The Commissioner is empowered to accounts. The Public Curator will control require the proprietor of a newspaper to operations of any tru·st account in cases supply him with the name and address of a where he is of opinion that the dealer is an particular financial journalist who con­ undischarged bankrupt or has stolen or mis­ tributed a particular article, or the names and applied any trust moneys or has a general addresses of all financial journalists who deficiency in his trust account. Where the contnibuted articles within a specified period. dealer is a stockbroker, the committee of the The purpose of this provision is to enable stock exchange may also exercise powers the Commissioner to ensure that all financial similar to those which may be exercised by journalists are complying with ·the require­ the Public Curator. ments of the Bill, and also to enable the Commissioner to check on the relationship, The right is retained for a stock exchange if any, between specific published investment to impose further obligations with respect advice and the securities held by •the to audits of the accounts of its members. journalist who contributed that advice. The provisions for the investment of Various rules to be observed in the con­ stockbrokers' trust funds are on rather duct of securities business are included, th•e similar lines to prO\nisions of the Legal principal of which forbids persons to sell Assistance Act, which have been operating "short" to a dealer; that is to say, they must successfully for the legal profession. These not purport to sell securities which they do provisions are necessarily restricted to stock­ not presently own unless they disclose their brokers as the only type of dealer having a posi,tJion to the dealer. The penalty for a professional body equivalent in function to breach of this clause is $2,000 or 6 months' the Law Society. A stockbroker must deposit imprisonment, or both. with his stock exchange not less than two­ thirds of the lowest balance of his trust On its face, "short" selling, as it is called, acoount over a period of three months. This may appear to be a highly improper money is to be held in trust for ·the stock­ practice, and studies in other countries have broker, and until repayment is demanded the shown that it is a practice which may lead money shall be invested by the stock exchange to abuses.. .The . rn-actice ~as very recently on interest-bearing deposit with a bank or been prohibited m .the Umted States but is upon loan to the T·reasurer, and interest still permitted in Canada and the United thereon is to be paid to the fideUty fund Kingdom. It therefore appears premature to which I will now refer. ~t this stage to ban :'short" selling outright m Queensland, and this has been the attitude Provision is made for the establishment .adopted in New South Wales and Viotoria. and administration of fidelity funds by stock But my Government sees the disclosure exchanges. The moneys constituting a fidelity requirement as the first step towards its fund will consist in the main of annual controlling and as a means of enabling a contributions by stockbrokers and the interest study to be made of its effects on .the Aus­ on investments by the exchange of stock­ traldan stock markets. The enactment of brokers' trust funds. this provision at the present time will not preclude . the Government from prohibiting In the event of the fund exceeding the practice outright at a later time if further $500,000, every stockbroker who has made study and experience show this to be desir­ 20 annual contributions shall be exempt able. from making further contributions, and upon his retirement or death the committee of The Bill provides for the keeping of the exchange may, at its discretion, repay accounts by all dealers and for the audit and all or part of his contributions. On the investigation of .those aoconnts. The only other hand, if the fund is reduced to below dealers exempted from these provisions are $250,000, a stockbroker who has been stockbrokers under the laws of another State. exempted shall again be required to pay contributions. An important proviSIOn concerns the keeping of a trust account into which must The amount in the fund will continue to be paid all amounts received by a dealer be directly proportional to the amounts for the purchase or sale of securities and being dealt with by brokers. As the amounts held for more than three days. held by brokers increase, so also will their trust account deposits with the exchange, and The proposed Queensland legislation so also will the interest thereon paid into differs from that of New South Wales and the fidelity fund increase. Victoria by exempting a dealer from this requirement in circumstances where he and If at any time the fidelity fund of a stock his client ordinarily deal with each other exchange is not sufficient to satisfy the on such terms rthat in the absence of any liabilities that are then ascertained of the special direction there shall merely be a stock exchange in relation thereto, the com­ debtor and creditor rela.tionship between mittee of the stock exchange is enabled to them. impose a levy not exceeding $500, but no 2664 Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH) Securities Industry Bill

stockbroker shall be required to pay by way so much to destroy a true market in securi­ of levy more than $5,000 in the aggregate ties. This Government, in common with the or more than $I ,000 in any one year. Governments of the other States of the Com­ monwealth, believes that it is important that All stockbrokers must contribute to the 'Parliament should clearly state its abhorrence fund, and claims may be made, in respect of such practices, and that every effort should of defalcations by them or by their be made to stamp them out before they employees, by persons who have suffered become widespread. pecuniary losses as a result of such defalca­ tion. If no right to claim exists in respect The Bill also provides for a reciprocal of a defalcation, the fund may be applied prosecution of offences between States and is for the purpose of paying to the Official designed to overcome the territorial limita­ Receiver in Bankruptcy sufficient to make tions inherent in State legislation. It is pro­ up the deficiency arising by reason of the vided that if a person does something in ;wailable assets of a broker being insufficient Queensland which, had it been done in to satisfy the claims in his bankruptcy arising another State, would have constituted an out of transactions in securities. In the offence against the securities law of that latter case the law of bankruptcy would State, that act will constitute an offence of course require that the payment be avail­ against the securities law of Queensland able to satisfy the claims of all creditors, corresponding to the law of that State. In not merely those relating to securities tram­ this way Queensland's jurisdiction will actions. extend to persons who might otherwise evade The maximum amount that may be paid to the law of other States, and this State looks all persons who suffer loss at the hands of to other States to enact similar provisions to any one stockbroker or his employees or ensure that the law of Queensland is not firm of stockbrokers or their employees shall evaded. not exceed $200,000; but this amount may In short, it may be said that, in order to be increased by the committee, either gener­ ensure maximum protection for the public ally or in a particular case. in stock market investment, the present Bill, which is destined to be part of an Australia­ In circumstances where the fund is insuf­ wide system of corresponding laws, makes ficient to meet claims which have been the establishment of stock exchanges in this. allowed against it, the amount of credit in State, other than the Brisbane Stock the fund shall be apportioned between claim­ Exchange, subject to ministerial approval~ ants at the discretion of the committee, and subjects the rules of stock exchanges to the unpaid amount of any claim shall be scrutiny; provides for the licensing of, and ~harged against future accumulations. Where the keeping of certain records, proper books the aggregate of all claims against the fund, and accounts by, those engaged in the made in relation to a particular defalcation, securities industry; provides for the setting exceeds the payment limit, then the total up of stock exchange fidelity funds; and amount payable shall be apportioned between creates new offences in relation to trading in the claimants at the discretion of the corn­ securities. I commend the motion. m ittee and thereafter all claims against the fund, in relation to that defalcation, shall be Mr. BENNETT (South Brisbane) (4.17 absolutely discharged. A stock exchange is p.m.): The Labour Party welcomes any permitted to supplement its fidelity fund, at legislation that is designed to ensure its discretion, with fidelity insurance. integrity in commercial dealings in this State. We are satisfied, of course, that this legisla­ A further important feature of the Bill tion represents an attempt by the various. is that new offences are created in relation States, by way of uniform legislation, to to market dealings. The first offence relates tighten up dealings transacted on the stock to creating a false or misleading appearance exchange. I must say that, within my know­ of active trading in securities; the second to ledge, I do not know of any wholesale market-rigging activities; the third to the use dishonesty among dealers on the Brisbane of fictitious transactions to affect the stock Stock Exchange. I feel that, over the years. market; the fourth to knowingly circulating they have been men of integrity. At the false rumours with respect to securities; and same time, I am not satisfied that, from time the fifth to bogus, feigned or spurious acts to time-perhaps through no fault of their and transactions for the purpose of affecting own but because of the system that prevails the trading in, or the market price of, any -there have not been methods by which the securities. A maximum penalty of $10,000 market can be manipulated by unscrupulous or imprisonment for five years, or both persons. I know they would say that they such penalty and imprisonment, is provided have trouble in their dealings with certain for these serious offences. These offences clients whom they ·try to keep on the strait will be indictable offences. and narrow path, but with whom they some­ It is recognised that it will be no easy times find great difficulty. matter to secure the evidence to enable Although I do not propose to do so, 1 prosecutions to be launched under these sec­ could name a member of Parliament who tions. But, despite this, experience in the came to loggerheads with a stock exchange United States shows that rather similar pro­ dealer in Brisbane who, in turn, had to take visions have been used with great effect to him to court to see that justice was done. inhibit these wrongful practkes which do When we as Parliamentarians are insisting on Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill 2665 standards we must acknowledge that there short period. Unfortunately, people invest are those who will take advantage of any large sums of money in such companies, only anomaly or possibility of weakness in the to see them collapse overnight, and the few structure of this organisation. skim off the cream of the investors' money We know that big money changes hands without having made a contribution to any in activities, dealings and contracts on the productivity in that particular field. What stock exchange. We also know that to some does the Minister intend to do in that regard? extent-if not to a large extent-those How can it be safeguarded or controlled? activities dictate the economy of the nation There is a body of opinion and public from time to time. Big dealings on the stock thought that the stock exchange is another exchange can sometimes wreck the economy market on which those who have the and at others can improve it. It is therefore wherewithal can punt-and they can do it imperative that this Government should have every day of the week without having to some control of these activities. wait for race days. In those circumstances, if people I hope also that the Ministe:, iD: arrogati~g have surplus moneys which they to himself, by way of this legtslatton, certam can invest on the stock exchange, it could control over these activities, will not be a be argued by the ordinary taxpayer, who rubber stamp or figure-head. I hope that is not in the affluent position of being able he will vest himself with the necessary force, to invest surplus moneys on the stock if I may use the term-police force or exchange, that he should not have to pro· inspectorial force-to see that the pro· vide a Government department to police visions of this legislation are adhered to the activities of those who are purely punt­ ing in a field that does not help the ordinary and implemented. I am not satisfied. ~~at the Government, in regard to other actlvttles man anyway. I do not altogether subscribe -for instance, the Clean Air Act and the to that line of thinking, but I do not weep Companies Act-in which it has rather great tears of disappointment for those who stringent powers, exercises those powers, do get their fingers burnt on the stock simply because it has not the sta.ff, the exchange. wherewithal or the. facilities to pohce the I realise that the stock exchange is a very provisions of those Acts. important body, and that it is necessary for the direction of invested money to various The Minister has set out quite properly channels. At the same time, however, there the principles contained in the Bill, but he is a similarity in the arguments advanced has not told us what machinery he has ready relative to it and those often heard about to put into operation to enforce and. secure attracting big business to this State. Such the provisions contained in the Btll. I businesses do not come here because of the should like him to indicate what subdepart· type of invitation given to them; they decide ment of his ministerial portfolio will police purely on the net return to be received and deal with this legislation, how many whether they will go to South Australia, members there are already on the staff, how Western Australia, Queensland, Victoria, or many will be on the staff, and who will be in anywhere else. control of them. The stock exchange business is a specialised business. No ordinary public In this matter we are dealing with mem­ servant who has not studied its activities bers of the public who invest on the stock could hope to keep abreast of market exchange purely as a means of making money dealings from day to day, unless he has for themselves and further fattening their private knowledge of it. No skilled pro· pockets. I realise that many people on fessional man could cope with the task average or moderate incomes are prepared to unless he had special training. Therefore, invest, or to punt, on the stock exchange­ it is quite important to know who will be in frankly, I do not know why-sometimes very much to their sorrow. However, that charge of seeing that the provisions of this is their right, and I suppose we have an legislation are carried into effect. obligation to see that they are protected When we are dealing with the m::mipula­ as far as that is possible. On the other tion of the stock exchange, the Minister hand, such people must realise that if they should indicate whether he will control gov­ want to get rich quick, to use the popular ernmental manipulation of the stock expression, and become millionaires over­ exchange, and that has happened from time night, they have to be prepared to run the to time. If there is a run in relation to risk of losing their money. Somebody has certain share-dealings on the stock exchange, to win, and somebody has to lose. Of and if the customers have knowledge that course, the only way to become wealthy is certain Ministers are investing in particular by hard and constant work and application securities on the stock exchange, that could over a long period. cause, either consciously or unconsciously, a I think that the Government of the day manipulation of the market. The Minister has an obligation to see that there is no should indicate what steps and control he dishonesty in transactions in securities. and will be taking to see that that does not to ensure that no misrepresentations are happen. made. If those things are done, the punter I believe that the matter is one of on the stock exchange must then operate urgency. We have seen the collapse of at his own risk. There is no obligation on companies that have mushroomed for a the Government to guarantee a safe and 2666 Securities IndustrY Bill [2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill

secure market, because the investor who Certainly it is time that legislative pro­ wants to invest prudently and conscientiously vision was made for a fidelity bond for will not go for the "big deal". He will not dealers on the stock exchange. We have be adventurous. Instead, he will invest in fidelity bonds to control real estate agents; we Government or semi-Government securities have fidelity bonds to control solicitors who that are guaranteed by the Government. I keep trust accounts. According to what the refer to investment in such bodies as the Minister has said, there is tn be a fidelity Brisbane City Council, which is badly in bond to indemnify anybody who acts on the need of money at the moment and has a say-so of a dealer but who gets caught by loan on the market, and the State Electricity wme form of dishonesty. I should hnpe that Commission. The Minister, as the man that would not happen very often, but it administering the Act and taking the neces­ will happen, as it has happened with sary powers to himself, should be there lawyers, and has happened more frequently only to see that there is honesty in stock with real estate agents, as the hon, member exchange dealings. for Redcliffe woruld well know. There is to be, according to the provisions Unfortunately the fidelity bond very often of the Bill, a list of holdings that can be. fails to undemnify the unfortunate person I sincerely hope, examined by members of who loses his money for the full amount the public irrespective of whether they intend lost. I should hope tha

exchange dealings. For some reason or made in a ne~spaper that is not well estab­ other, the public generally accepts without lished deserves to get his fingers burnt. The question everything that is printed in the medium that persuades the public most of newspapers. Unfortunately, they even believe all is the daily newspaper. It is a very what Cabinet Ministers say when they are powerful weapon; what appears in print is reported in newspapers, even though they accepted without equivocation by the vast would not believe what they were told by majority of the reading public. Therefore, some of the Ministers themselves. When a proposal should be written into the legisla­ something is printed in a newspaper, it seems, tion to compel a journalist in this field in the mind of the general reading public, to attain a minimum standard of qualifica­ to thereby get some authenticity. People tions. That would mean that a newspaper comb through the newspapers avariciously could not make recommendations or com­ when they are interested in the stock ments on this particular field unless and until exchange and I do not doubt that in most it was prepared to secure the services of instances the information contained in the a man-either a member of the staff or one newspaper is bona fide or is placed in the employed on a contractual basis--who was newspaper in a bona fide fashion with the well qualified to write such articles. intention of assisting the readers. However, Mr. W. D. Hewitt: What qualifications r am not always satisfied that the person would you look for in a finance writer­ \\ ho writes the articles is qualified or equip­ accountancy qualifications? ped to do so, as an expert in that field. Mr. W. D. Hewitt: Unscrupulous men have Mr. BENNETI': I suppose that account­ made a killing. ancy qualifications would not be a handi­ cap, but I do not think they are the be-all Mr. BENNETI: Yes, as the hon. member and end-all of expertise in this field. A has said an unscrupulous writer could make paper with tremendous financial resources a fortune ~n th_ree or four weeks or perhaps would be able to afford to pay a qualified as a certamty m three or four months and economist to write articles about the stock then vacate the journalistic field. He ~ould exchange, but if a man had the qualifica­ not need to write any further articles. He tions of both an economist and an could so manipulate the market by his accountant, so much the better. I am pre­ recommendations that many people could be pared to acknowledge that in many fields deprived of thousands of dollars. of endeavour there are men who are well r realise, of course, that in the world of qualified but do not possess academic degrees. journalism there is a very high code of Although they are not necessarily profes­ ethics and certain standards are insisted sional men in the accepted sense of the term, llJ?On. In this area, however, we are dealing nevertheless they could be experts in their With persons who are not merely journalists particular fields. I suppose that a consumer, but men who are supposed to be experts in if I may use the term, who had been the field of stock exchange dealings. I think investing with success on the share market that in certain circumstances the Minister for many years, provided he was an should be entitled to call upon a newspaper intelligent and understanding man with an to supply the name of a journalist. intimate knowledge of the activities of the In any case, I do not think we need share market, would be more qualified to legislation-in fact, I know that we do not act as an adviser to others than a man who need legislation-to be able to obtain that is technically and academically qualified. I information. I believe that virtually all bona would not exclude the possibility of appoint­ flde newspapers would be prepared on ing a person whose standards a~d. qualifica­ request to supply the name of a journalist tions are approved by the Mm1ster who who wro~e any article in the newspaper. Of administers the Act. course, If a newspaper refused and one Mr. Tucker: Mr. Bury is an academic. \\ ished to bring an action against the news­ but look at the mess he's got the Federal paper or some other persons, there are way~ Government in. and means under the Rules of the Supreme Court-and the District Court, for that Mr. BENNETI': As the hon. member for matter-to secure an order from those Townsville North has pointed out, Mr. Bury respective courts making it possible to find is an academic and, no doubt, on paper he out fr<:m the newspaper who wrote a particu­ is well qualified, but he has plunged the lar article. !"-.s I say, most newspapers would economy of this country into the lowest not. put a litigant to that expense or incon­ degradation that we have seen, with the vemence, so the fact that we are writing into result that there is no confidence in either the legislation a provision that the name of a the present or future economic structure of journalist who writes recommendations or this country. comments in the paper must be supplied is not really a step that has taken us any Mr. Hughes: Just like the aldermen in the further than the present set-up. Brisbane City Council. I ~uppose. that it might be a necessary Mr. BENNETI: Never mind about the step m the mstance of a newspaper that is Brisbane City Council. At least the aldermen not well established or highly regarded. give better service to the ratepayers than Anyone who takes notice of recommenda­ that given by the Federal Government to tions about investments on the stock exchange the taxpayers. 2668 Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH) Securities Industry Bill

Mr. Hinze: They had to take a direction should not only have the discretion to appoint from an outside source. an auditor; it ~hould be his bounden obliga­ tion to do so. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I believe that the provision whereby a Mr. Hinze: They got a rap over the dealer is obliged to let the authorities know knuckles. of any malpractice is desirable, but, again, Mr. SPEAKER: Order! the authorities should not have to wait for information to be volunteered. There should Mr. Hinze: Jack Egerton pulled them into be a staff prepared and able, with all the line. necessary facilities, to discover any mal­ Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I have called the practice on the spot. hon. member for South Coast to order a I have dealt with the obligations of a number of times. I trust that he will relent newspaper and its journalistic efficiency in somewhat in his interjections, at least suf­ this field. The Government should be pre­ ficiently to hear my call to order. I ask pared under this legislation to insist on the the hon. member for South Brisbane not to appointment of a man from within the State be distracted. Public Service-if there is no-one sufficiently qualified in the service, someone should be Mr. BENNETI: I was talking only about appointed from outside-to write articles to experts. I do not like to be provocative or be published by the daily newspapers relative controversial. I like to pay tribute where I to the departmental attitude to dealings on can. I realise, from the suggestion made to the stock exchange. Jt is all very well for me, that the member for South Coast is an the so-called experts from outside-and when expert at getting through small windows. I say "so-called", I am not disparaging them, I was dealing with the Treasury experts because many of them are experts-to write and I referred to the present state of the articles, but they get carried away with enthu­ economy. siasm; they become convinced about a pro­ Mr. Hinze: If you want to tip the tin ject or proposal, perhaps because of friend­ on one of your mates in Brisbane, keep that ship with directors or because of their experi­ up. ence and background, and make recommenda­ tion that are not justified or, alternatively. Mr. SPEAKER: Order! are inflated. Mr. BENNEIT: I hope that the Minister Mr. Kaus: They are the tipsters. will give credence to my submissions, which Mr. BENNETI: They are the tipsters, a~ are fortified by a comparison of the present Federal Treasurer with the late Ben Chiftey, the hon. member says. an ordinary engine driver, who turned out In these matters, it is always better to to be a veritable expert whom everybody have a person who is objective, detached believed. I do not believe in insisting on a and unbiased in any fashion, and who person being an accountant or an economist, certainly has no interest in any particular although the qualifications are handy and proposal. There is nothing in the law at beneficial. Experts on the stock exchange the moment nor, as far as I know, in the can be experts because of their own native Bill, to insist that the public be. informed ability in that field. I certainly believe that officially by an objective person. It is all there should be some body to satisfy the very well to say that it is possible to get public that an authority is worth listening to. such men-and there certainly are men I understood the Minister to say, when of integrity in tbe profession-but they have introducing the Bill, that the Attorney-General their own personal inclinations and may appoint an auditor to examine the books eccentricities. There is nothing in the of the stock exchange. law to say that journalists who write those Mr. Lee: He said inspector. recommendations in the Press and the people who set the example on the stock exchange Mr. BENNETI: An auditor and inspector. should not themselves be interested parties. 1 hope it would be automatic that he would And it is no offence; in fact, it cannot be not wait till there was some suspicion of argued that they are dishonest. trouble before appointing an auditor or Mr. O'Donnell: They peddle tips. inspector. I hope that will be done immedi­ ately the Bill is assented to so that we may Mr. BENNETI: As the hon. member for have available a full-time auditor whose Barcoo says, these experts peddle tips, and salary will be paid by the dealers on the they are paid for their recommendations. stock exchange. He would be there con­ At the moment, I have an interest, to some stantly to audit books from time to time, extent. in the field of geology, and I know not only when it was considered necessary. that geologists are encouraged to make Let us face reality: if any member of the recommendations relative to the research public in any field of life believes that he that they do and the investigations that is subject to continual supervision, he is less they make in order to encourage investment likely to stray or deviate than a person who on the share market. Very often, those is prepared to take a risk believing he will geologists are allowed, by way of a bonus, be investigated or supervised only if some to take shares in a particular company. if suspicion attaches to him. The Minister they are not even entitled to buy them. Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill 2669

Therefore their recommendations cannot be that the hon. member gets from the regarded 'as being detac~ed, unbiased and ministerial benches. If I did, at least I would objective. In regard to this field the Govern­ be kind to my mates. ment should appoint a well qualified person To return to the point that I was making, who will give an undertaking in writing by the Minister has already conceded that it will way of a bond or some such deed that he still be particularly difficult to police the himself will not invest or dabble in the provisions of the Bill, and obtaining the share market in any manner. necessary staff is perhaps going to be even When we go to court to sue some big more difficult. That is, of course, if the company for a dealing, contract, or tort, Government will provide the staff. All that we would not get a fair go from a judge is really needed to clear up the rackets on who was a controlling shareholder in the the share market, and the malpractices that particular company, so the unwritten law go on, is one man. I am not referring to ~he activities of dealers, but those who give says that, in those circumstanes, no judge advice, official and unofficial, in printed form can. may, or should sit on a case in which and in other ways. Only one man would be he has even a remote interest because he needed to eliminate most, if not all, of such cannot be objective or detached. Yet, with malpractices. He would be a man whose reoard to the stock exhange, which is the integrity was beyond reproach, whose under­ authority that deals with the investing public standing of the field of investment was of a and the instrumentality in which the money high level, who was paid a good salary by is invested-it is virtually the go-between­ either the stock exchange or the Government, a person can make observations on whether and who was required to give an undertaking or not an investment is worth while. Surely in writing not to engage in any share dealings that person who influences so many thousands whatsoever. Such a man's capacity would be of Australian citizens, and is responsible for undoubted and his integrity would be the investment, either wisely or unwisely, of acknowledged, and anything that he stated in so many millions of dollars annually, should the newspapers would surely be accepted. be a person who is detached and objective, If he was able to satisfy himself that some and makes his recommendations purely and of the recommendations or information given simply as a specialist, a professional man or by bogus advisers was false, he shou!d be an experienced and efficient man rather than entitled to go to the Press and say so m no a man who could be said to have an interest uncertain terms even giving, if necessary, in some. particular field. We know that, the real reason~ for the dishonesty of the long before today, men have rigged the assertions. market, and men who are so-called pro­ fessional men with a high standing in life In order to protect him from act!

State, in most instances, does not bother to the Minister is prepared to insist on the stock insist on 'the enforcement of the order, but exchange paying a man of the Minister's says that it has more important things to do appointment to write articles in the news­ in dealing with its own domestic issues. The paper commenting on recommendations, sug­ Police in the other State say, "We're not gestions, submissions and representations paid to go looking for offenders from made in the newspapers from time to time. Queensland who have broken the mainten­ ance laws." I believe that the purpose of this Bill is to improve the standard and integrity of the Just what is going to happen about stock exchange in share market dealings and reciprocity in prosecutions between States in the avoidance of manipulation. That can best this field? Will this State set up, as it did in be done by having an informed public. The regard to maintenance matters, an authority only way we can have an informed public is that can collaborate with the authorities in to ensure that we have a man of absolute other States in order to insist that the efforts integrity, a man of detachment who can of the prosecutors here are not frustrated by make his comments through the columns of absconders going to another State? Just what the daily Press, a man whose standards will machinery will be available? I realise that be well accepted by the public. Only then some States will be more enthusiastic about will we have an avoidance of the share the enforcement of this law than others. rackets that have occurred in the past. If Some will have more money to enforce it. we did have such a man, much of the No doubt the State that will do it with the machinery that the Minister suggests would greatest efficiency and with integrity and be unnecessary because the people would not enthusiasm will be South Australia, and per­ be fooled by dishonest representations. haps now Western Australia. Possibly they will be prepared to co-operate with other Mr. HANWN (Baroona) (5.6 p.m.): I States in the enforcement of the regulations. deal with this Securities Industry Bill and its fellow, the Companies Act Amendment Bill, What will happen about recommendations which follows it on the Business Paper as made interstate? It is all very well that we indicative of the way in which events have in Queensland insist on a high standard of caught up with conservative administrations recommendation but we could have our and forced them to acknowledge the need for citizens gulled by recommendations made by control. I think it will be conceded that there so-called authorities in interstate newspapers. has long been pressure for statutory control Just what arrangements have been made by and greater administrative control of the the Minister in this regard? Will we be able stock exchange and of company operations, to send members of the Queensland Police and, by the statute and the activities of a Force, or the authorities policing the legisla­ person such as the Commissioner for Cor­ tion, to New South Wales, Victoria or other porate Affairs who will be appointed under States to make inquiries about recommenda­ this Bill, protection of the public. tions made there? What powers will we have to inspect the registers if registers are to be I can remember that some years ago-­ kept in other States? What auditors are several election campaigns back-Mr. John going to be authorised in other States? Can Duggan, as Leader of the Opposition, the Minister tell us whether our auditor in envisaged an officer to be termed "Public Queensland will have the right to go down Protector" who would be charged with many to New South Wales or Victoria to inspect of the responsibilities that the Minister pro­ the funds and accounts of the stock ex­ poses to give to the Commissioner for Cor­ changes of other States? porate Affairs, but action would have been Although the general principles of the Bill extended. as suggested by the hon. member are certainly desirable I believe that the for South Brisbane, into the public field machinery operations of the Bill as explained itself-administratively, to act quickly in by the Minister leave a lot to be desired. It circumstances where he considered such is all very well to speak about the desirability action was warranted. I acknowledge that in of new provisions in specific legislation such many ways provision is incorporated in this as this, but they are not much use unless they Bill and in the Companies Act to deal are implemented and administered properly directly with companies and also with the and fairly. public and keep them, as investors, share­ holders and potential shareholders, informed So often under this Government I have of situations that might be seen to be seen legislation introduced that is reasonably developing in one company or another. desirable, and sometimes highly desirable, but unfortunately it has subsequently disap­ I feel that only a few years ago the pointed me. It has turned out to be only a present Mini&ter, who might be perhaps window-dressing campaign, because the somewhat more radical 'than some of his Government has not policed the legislation predecessors in the Tory administrations of or has not put it into effect and has not had bygone years, would have been rather upset the staff to do so. I should be particularly had we suggested some of the provisions interested to hear the Minister inform the that he is now writing into this legislation, House in detail just what staff there is, or but events have caught up with Governments will be, available to administer the principles to the stage where we now find a liberal of the Bill, who will be in charge of that Government bringing forward legislation staff, what his qualifications are, and whether ~hat 'actually provides for ministerial Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill 2671

approval of the stock exchange, that will As the Minister indicated, many people control the stock exchange in its operations­ believe that the uniform legislation intro­ its operators, licensed dealers, investment duced by the States should be replaced by advisers, and so on-that will give the the transfer of their powers to the Com­ Minister the right to veto existing rules of monwealth and the setting-up in this country the stock exchange or rules for which in of a body something akin to the Federal time to come, they might seek approval, and Securities Exchange Commission in the that will set up trust funds, fidelity funds, United States of America. We know that and so on. currently in Australia a Senate committee of investigation is inquiring into the stock We know that in the past the traditional exchange, so I feel that until we see how approach from the conservative political the provisions of the Bill are carried out point of view has been that historically these we should reserve judgment on the matter people have proved themselves able to of whether or not the States possess adequate manage their own affairs. I think even the legislative sanctions to do the work that present Minister is on record as saying so a it is suggested might be better done by a couple of years back. But now there is an Federal body. acknowledgement of pressure that has built up through the Press, from the public, from Dealing with the Bill itself, I repeat that investors and from parliamentarians on all the Minister has distinct controls available to him. One that strikes me as being a sides for a tightening of control, and so we matter of interest-perhaps at the Committee see this legislation coming before us. stage the Minister might deal with it in I support the comment of the hon. greater detail-is that he has written into member for South Brisbane, in speaking to the office of the Commissioner for Corporate the Bill as the shadow Attorney-General for Affairs the provision that the Minister may the Opposition, that much will depend, as issue directions to the Commissioner as to always, and as we have previously said on policy, and the Commissioner will be obliged amendments of the Companies Act, on the to carry them out. actual facilities made available to this new I would like the .Minister to outline these office of Commissioner for Corporate things either in his reply or at the Com­ Affairs. The Bill itself spells out that the mittee stage and to tell us the background of present Registrar of Companies and Com­ this instruction on policy, because if the mercial Acts--when I say the "present" one, office of Commissioner for Corporate Affairs I presume he will still be the Registrar when is to be established, if the appointee to this Bill is proclaimed-will become the that office is to be dealing with companies Commissioner for Corporate Affairs. and stockbrokers in the manner indicated, and if certain penalties will be available Personally, I feel that Mr. Kehoe, the under the Bill, I think a fine line will be present Registrar of Companies, will meet drawn as to where the Minister will be in the requirements of the office of Commis­ a position to intervene. sioner for Corporate Affairs. However, we I know that the Bill provides that the keep repeating-we do not want to have Minister will instruct the Commissioner on tedious repetition-that unless he is given policy. I interpret that as meaning that the staff and facilities to enable him to the Minister will not be able to instruct implement the provisions of the Bill the office the Commissioner as to any specific adminis­ will not amount to a great deal. trative action that he may take or any It is not much use putting a new hat prosecution that he may launch. I invite on Mr. Kehoe and saying to him, "You look the Minister to comment on the inclusion very nice in it." He must be given a couple of the clause that gives the Minister the of shotguns and the other things that he complete right of direction to the Commis­ needs--deputies and other staff-to carry out sioner for Corporate Affairs on matters of his duties. The Minister will be quick to policy, because it could perhaps be inter­ point out that he has provided for the preted that a Minister-not necessarily the appointment of an assistant commissioner, present Minister-might suggest that some but today we are dealing with the matter action that the Commissioner for Corporate in an atmosphere in which Government Affairs proposes to take, because he con­ departments are denied their fundamental siders that the Act makes it obligatory for bread-and-butter budgetary requirements, him to do so, might in some way discourage such as in education and hospitals. The business investment in Queensland. Government has had a cut-back forced upon From time to time a good deal has been it by the Federal administration, and it, in made of this point. Some of the cracks turn, has been forced to cut down on the have been aimed at previous Labour admin­ essential requirements of the community, such istrations, and some members claimed as schools and hospitals. Therefore, this that people were discouraged from investing new office of Commissioner for Corporate in Queensland because of certain Govern­ Affairs is being set up in a climate in which ment actions. Will the Minister be able the Minister will need to strive very hard to tell the Commissioner that he does not to secure the budgetary allocation that no want him to bury his nose in certain com­ doubt his Commissioner will be seeking to panies or certain aspects of trading on the enable him to implement the provisions of stock exchange because the Government con­ the Bill. siders as a matter of policy that such action 2672 Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH] Securities IndustrY Bill will discourage investment in particular Minister can tell us, but I assume that developmental projects in this State? All the Australian J oumalists' Association does these points are pertinent to the inclusion not object to the insertion of this requirement of the Minister's right to direct the Com­ in the legislation. missioner on matters of policy, although I think most of us agree that it is desirable Dr. Delamothe: I have received no that the Minister should be responsible for objection since the Bill was published. the conduct of many of these affairs. Mr. HANLON: As the legislation has been We know it does not happen, but in certain available for some time and has been rather fields, such as the Licensing Commission, it strongly canvassed in the South, I assume is considered that the Commissioner should that, acting in the public interest, they realise be completely divorced from statutory influ­ that the information that could be required ence in any action he may take. I leave that would relate to a specific or an alleged thought with the Minister for any comments offence under this legislation. That is entirely that he may care to make in reply. Later different to calling on a journalist to disclose on, in the Committee stage, we may raise his source of information on something that it with him again. he has written in what he considers to be in the public interest. It is important to draw The Minister has the right to instruct the the distinction, because one step could lead Commissioner on policy, and he also has the to another. right to veto any of the rules of the stock exchange. That is obviously essential. If It may be said that it is all right to he is more or less to approve of the stock compel the proprietor of a newspaper to exchange, it would be ridiculous if he did not disclose the name of a journalist who wrote have the right to veto or vet its rules as he about a certain matter, but political articles may see fit. He will be able to require the could be quite damaging to the person con­ maintenance of proper trust accounts and cerned. There is no suggestion, and there fidelity funds, and notification of the Com­ has been none, that there should be any form missioner about listing requirements, which of compulsion on the proprietor of a news­ matters have already been covered adequately paper to publish the name ~f, or. identif~, by the hon. member for South Brisbane. a journalist who wrote a certam article. This has been done to protect the public interest I note with interest the provision that where a journalist prostitutes his position by initially created some furore in the South endeavouring to gain some personal advant­ relative to an obligation on the proprietor or age by urging the acquisition or sale of shares publisher of a newspaper to supply .the name in a certain company, which would create and address of a finance journalist respon­ some form of influence on the market. sible for an article or series of articles in the Press that could be, or are interpreted This compulsion of disclosure of the names by the Commissioner as having been, written of journalists is unique in our statutes. It on other than a bona-fide journalistic basis could be extended into other fields, although in an endeavour to induce people to invest I do not think that the Australian Journalists' in certain shares to the personal advantage Association would accept that. However, I of the writer or people associated with him. assume from what the Minister said that the This is a very serious step, and one not journalists accept this as be_ing in th_e pu~lic to be passed over lightly. It is one which, interest and do not regard It as an mtruswn initially, the Australian Journalists' Associa­ into their journalistic rights and freedom. tion took strong exception to when the Bill I shall now refer to Mineral Securities came before southern Parliaments. I under­ Australia Ltd. Perhaps this would. be better stand that the requirement in the legislation dealt with under the Companies Act Amend­ was not only that a register should be kept ment Bill. but as we are discussing trading where this information could be sought, but in securities, market-rigging transactions and that the information had to be actually filed. affecting market prices by fiction, we must Dr. Delamothe: They had to be licensed. have regard to whether, in applying this. to dealers, brokers and so on, we are puttmg Mr. HANLON: The initial requirement was the cart before the horse. Today, investment that they had to be licensed under the Act companies are entering the field, particularly in the same way as an investment adviser. the m'ning market, and because of their very activities are creating situations inadvertently We know that there are many occasions­ and without any desire to perpetrate a mal­ there have been such occasions in the past­ practice or to rig or influence the market. when articles written in the Press suggest The very magnitude of their investment in that some crime is taking place, or that the securities can produce a very undesirable law is being breached in respect of, say, prostitution or S.P. betting. Under the con­ situation. cept of the freedom of the Press, a very Mineral Securities Australia Ltd. was strong stand has always been taken by news­ established in 1965 and, by investing in the paper publishers and proprietors and the mining and exploration boom at that time, journalists through their association against was able to declare a profit of $12,700,000 a journalist being forced to supply informa­ for the year ended 30 June, 1970, Of that tion and to reveal sources of information amount, $9,000,000 was derived from share unde.r duress. I do not know whether the trading. It is obvious that a company set up Securities Industry Bill (2 MARCH) Securities IndU.stry Bill 2673 to invest and trade in mining and explora­ described the inter-company departments of tion stock would have a tremendous influence some stockbrokers who act as intermediaries on the market. Then the company was in this market, which is the market in which obliged to point out that, in the course of Minsec secured much of the funds used to making an offer for the shares of some of its purchase the shares, as miniature war rooms subsidiaries, including the Cudgen company, or bookmakers' shops, with large boards it had acquired $34,000,000-odd worth of showing creditors listed down one margin, shares and that, in doing so, it had used 3. debtors along the top, and multi-coloured tremendous amount of borrowed money. pins to indicate the type of loan, and with Dr. Del.amothe: $31,000,000. telephones ringing each morning with terse requests for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Mr. HANLON: $31,000,000. At about the same time the company issued a half-yearly He went on to say that no-one knows statement which indicated a profit of the exact size of this market. One Melbourne S3,500,000. Within a matter of weeks it was broker alone is known to have been the pointed out that this was actually a loss of middle-man for current loans-the money $3,200,000 because, during the period to 31 out on loan at the moment-amounting to December, 1970, Mineral Securities had sold more than $100,000,000. Four or five some 6,000,000 of its Robe River shares others, as intermediaries in the inter-company through brokers and had incorporated the market, would have loan transactions profit in its result. But durin&. the same amounting to some $30,000,000 each. As I period its subsidiary, Minsec Investments Pty. have said, there is one broker with trans­ Ltd., had bought 6,373,000 Robe River actions in the inter-company market amount­ shares through brokers. On legal advice the ing to about $100,000,000. Mr. Souter company discovered that the profit made by suggests that there would be four or five a parent company in disposing of shares to others with transactions amounting to a subsidiary company must be excluded from $30,000,000. the profit of the parent company. When Mineral Securities Ltd. was faced It seems to me a remarkable thing that with reality, we saw a situation that makes that was not realised before legal advice was us wonder whether what we are domg in obtained. When we are writing into a this legislation, and the associated com­ securities Bill, and later into a companies panies legislation, will be sufficient, or Act, a requirement on brokers, dealers and whether we are in effect knocking the ants companies, it seems strange, to my mind at on the head and letting the elephants g?. least, that this major company would ignore the accepted accountancy practice, and Mr. Jensen: That is about all it is. accepted matter of common sense, that one cannot declare that one has made a profit Mr. HANLON: This is what concerns me. out of what is virtually selling something to am not going to be derogatory of the oneself. We could all be millionaires over­ Bill. I would be very foolish if I adopted night if we could sell our handkerchiefs from that attitude, because people all over Aust­ our right pocket to our left pocket, and ralia who are well qualified in company law back again, at a profit, every day. Yet that have endeavoured, as members of the advisory was the situation with this company. which committee, to produce legislation of a more had gone on the market and secured shares or less uniform nature to deal with this to the extent of about $30,000,000 in a situation. number of companies, including Thiess Holdings, Robe River, Kathleen Investments, Ordinary people, of course, do not get the and Queensland Mines. They are all major type of accommodation where they have companies, a number of them outside the unused overdrafts to the extent that they say, State but having a vital interest in this "We are getting this money from the bank at State. There were $15,000,000 worth of a certain percentage and we can lend it shares in Queensland Mines; $10,000,000 out and make a profit out of it". This is worth in Kathleen Investments; $7,000,000 what has been happening in the inter­ worth in Robe River; and $1,750,000 in company market. Reality started to come Thiess Holdings. All of those shares were home to Mineral Securities when they found purchased by this company, and, in the that they had borrowed short and had put course of doing so, the company involved their money into stocks, and they were being itself in a huge number of creditors, with called upon to meet the call demands of some of their creditors, some of whom filed very much of the amount due to creditors certain affidavits. One was an affidavit pre­ unsecured and much of it on call. sented to the Equity Court by Mr. Anthony When we talk about dealers and the pro­ Van Toll, who was a director of Westralian viding of penalties for people who produce International, who at that point were the a false picture of the market which affects lenders of $2,500,000 to Mineral Securities. the situation of ordinary investors, let us They were contacted, apparently, by a look at the position of brokers who act director of Ord B.T. Co. Ltd., which is a as intermediaries in the inter-company joint merchant-banking enterprise between market, and where they secure most of the the major Australian stockbrokers, Ord funds. Mr. Gavin Souter, in "The Sydney Minnett, and the Bankers' Trust Company Morning Herald" of 23 February, 1971, of New York, who had been trying to 2674 Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH] Securities Industry Bill secure long-term finance for Mineral spoke to this man on the telephone about Securities on the Eurodollar market without the creditors' meeting and said that he was success. very sorry to see that Trans City Securities This Ord B.T. spokesman asked them to Ltd. was involved. hold off on their call demand on Mineral As I understand it, a Mr. Todner, of Secur~ties . because they were trying to save Trans City Securities Ltd. said, "We are the situ~tion. Mr. Van Toll, of Westralian now secured". Mr. Van Toll, who of course InternatiOnal, stated that he was informed by was still unsecured, said, "When?" Mr. this representative of the company that Todner said, "February 2nd". Mr. Van Toll there were $57,000,000 borrowings exposed said, "I think that security might be the on the external basis and that about type that you could paper your walls with". $15,000,000 of these were at call and due Mr. Todner replied, "I don't know what on demand. Westralian International then right they had to give it to us". I stress went ahead and called for $600 000 which that point. He said, "I don't know what they had the right to call at that' stage. right they had to give it to us". In a secon~ affidavit, Mr. Coppin, who That brings me back to what the hon. a_lso was a d1rector of Westralian Interna­ member for South Brisbane has indicated. ti~nal, alleged that a Mr. Davis, managing We want this office of Commissioner for director of Ord B.T., had told him that Corporate Affairs to have the staff, the they had two unsecured loans to Minsec-­ facilities and the expedition to be able to $1,0~0,000 ?ue on 29 January and $1,500,000 step in in circumstances where somebody is due m Apnl. claiming a right purely as the result of an advantage that he_ has gained from informa­ This i_s the point I am coming to. We tion of the type that the Minister is outlawing are talkmg about imposing penalties on a in this Bill. stockbrp~er who engages in malpractice. I agree ~1th the penalties that the Minister is What is the use of dealing with the small P:oposmg and the discouragement he is operator, although he has certainly com­ giVIng to any form of market-rigging by a mitted a breach and deserves to be dealt small operator, but I want this to be noted. with? What is the use of going half way in Ord B.T. Co. Ltd. told the director of these things if people in major positions are Westralian International, whom they had able to play ducks and drakes with other endeavoured to get to hold off a day or people's assets and endanger their solvency? so before, that they had two unsecured loans Mr. Todner said, "I do not know what to Mineral Securities-$1,000,000 due on right they had to give it to us, but we have 29 J~nuary and $1,500,000 due in April. In it and we are sticking to it". As I said, it consideratiOn of Or:d B.T. Co. i:td. not calling is some indication of the complete shambles the ~rst loan, Mmeral Secunties provided into which the general control of the secunty for both loans without any regard securities industry and the company share :o the effect _that they would have on others market in this country has fallen when a m en?eav?urmg to .raise security, and clearly company in a purely punting operation, reducmg Its capacity to get further credit succeeded in making a profit of $12,700,000. elsewhere. I am not blaming the Ord B.T. It set out in 1965 with $240,000 capital to peop!e, as they were probably acting in invest in mining and exploration stock and the. mteres~s of their own shareholders and enjoyed a good run in the boom period of thetr .own mvestors, but they gave themselves 1969. Its directors then thought they should a qmck advantage because they had been have discovered this game long ago and, not approa.ched by ¥ineral Securities, and, satisfied with playing up their profits and accordmg to the articles on which I .am basing what they had made up to that point, they these z:einarks h~ bee~ approached, because borrowed huge sums of money purely for the of .their coonectwns with the Bankers' Trust purpose of investing in what the Minister Company of New. York, to try to get long­ rightly described as a very speculative and term accommodation for Mineral Securities volatile market in the mining field. on the Eurodollar market which would Reality has caught up with .them, but many en.able them to meet any call demands that people and many interests will be affected. might come from their creditors in Australia The State Government Insurance Office in who had lent them money on call. Having Queensland is this morning listed as a been approached, having been more or less secured creditor, but that security could well in the picture, having two unsecured loans be jeopardised by other creditors in an themselves, and having a half length start endeavour to unload on the market what on everyone else, they arranged with Mineral they are holding as security. It was rumour Securities to get security for those loans that set the whole thing in motion, and which previously they had out which were Mineral Securities shares, which at one due on 29 January and in April. stage reached $23, started to drop until the In his affidavit, Mr. Van Toll referred time when, a few weeks ago, the company, further to a telephone call from the chairman to its credit, requested the stock exchange of another company, known as Trans City to suspend trading in its shares. Securities Ltd., which itself had been revealed I suggest to the Minister that this is only at a creditors' meeting of the company held one stage in what he and the other in Sydney on 4 February as an ·unsecured Attorneys-General and their advisory com­ creditor for $1,000,000. Two days later he mittees are endeavouring to do. We cannot Securities Industry Bill [2 MARCH) Securities Industry Bill 2675

rest at this stage. I know that further reports that claim because over those 10 years I have are due to come in to the Ministers from the seen it drain money off the uninitiated. It has advisory committee, and no doubt action will done that without any sympathy at all, and be taken if events show it to be warranted, it has done so through the stockbrokers, who but this Mineral Securities position has are supposed to protect the public. The suddenly burst at a stage when they already stock exchange is not an avenue for invest­ had prepared a further advance which it was ment; it is a gambling den. The Minister is obviously thought necessary to bring into trying to implement a totally inadequate being. measure. However, the problem that he is That is not by any means to say that we trying to overcome is not confined to Queens­ should disregard the work that has been done land, or even to Australia; it is a world-wide on this Bill and the Companies Act Amend­ one. The stock exchange is a world-wide ment Bill, which we will deal with next. But capitalist instrumentality, and if the Minister we should not be following behind the can do anything to rectify the existing events, as we seem to be. We wait until the anomalies he will stir up a world-wide train runs off the line and then we race out revolution in money affairs. and try to correct the situation. The next To support my contention, I shall quote a Bill contains requirements on directors newspaper article. It is headed, "Explosive regarding bad debts and so on, brought book on stock exchange" and says- about purely as the result of a situation that " 'There is more sheer larceny per arose in the early 1%0's, problems that square foot on the floor of the New York evidenced themselves in the collapse of the Stock Exchange than any place else in the Palmer empire and the Korman enterprises. world,' Ney said last week. Those things are history now-they happened some years ago---but our tardiness "The book is so hot that 29 publishers in dealing with them is evident in the fact refused to touch it and The Wall Street that we are only now getting to the stage of Journal will not accept an advertisement tidying up, of putting requirements on for it. directors, of spelling out rules for the pre­ "Ney, a stock market insider himself and sentation of accounts and the duties of a member of the financial establishment, auditors; and protecting them to some extent said the book had turned him into a leper. by giving them a qualified privilege of libel " 'In Wall St., they regard me now as a and so on, as was mentioned by the hon. traitor,' he said. 'I have few friends. No member for South Brisbane. In this legisla­ one wants to have anything to do with tion we are only catching up with the me.'" problems· of trains that ran off the line six or seven years ago, and already we have Mr. SPEAKER: Order! I hope the hon. more or less an "S.S. Titanic" in Mineral member is drawing an analogy. I fail to see Securities, which has gone down under our how the Bill will have any effect on the New feet while we are still dealing with the York Stock Exchange. collapses of the 1960's. I suggest strongly to the Minister, without Mr. JENSEN: I am showing that this is a in any way deprecating the work done by world-wide matter and that the Minister is his own officers and by the various Attorneys­ trying to do something in Queensland that General and their advisers, that it is essential cannot do any good at all. Under the Bill to devote sufficient funds to the office of the Minister must be satisfied that the rules Commissioner for Corporate Affairs in this of a stock exchange make satisfactory provi­ State and the other States to ensure getting sion generally for the carrying out of busi­ out in front of this sort of thing. Mr. ness on the stock exchange with due regard Duggan suggested the appointment of a to the interests of the public, and that the public protector, who would actually pro­ interests of the public will be served by the tect the public. We cannot protect the public granting of his approval. simply by running along behind them and Our shadow Treasurer has referred to the picking them up when they have been bowled implications of Minsec. Under the Bill, what over. I hope that the Bill is only the first can the Minister do with an organisation like step in enabling the Government and its that? What can he do to prevent the stock officers to get out in front and protect the exchange from again going ahead and pro­ public before they are swallowed up in the moting such a company and taking the type of shambles that I have illustrated. people's money under false pretences? The Minister knows that the assets of any com­ Me. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (5.40 p.m.): I pany are governed mainly by speculation and wish to participate briefly in this debate by rumour on the stock exchange. They are not expressing some doubt about whether the governed by what the directors are supposed Bill is worth anything at all. I know that the to report every three or six months. We all Minister has endeavoured to clean up some know that the directors of Minsec reported of the small anomalies associated with the a profit of $3,000,000 and then, a few weeks stock exc-hange. For 10 years I have been later, reported a loss of that amount. trying to understand the workings of the I invest in one or two companies and I stock exchange, but I have been unable to believe that the assets of those companies do so. I have come to the conclusion that it should be governed by their business position is one great capitalist gambling den. I make and their activities as a business organisation, 2676 Securities IndustrY Bill [2 MARCH] Securities IndustrY Bill not by a rumor started on the stock exchange. We had it again in 1970, with the mining A few weeks ago a rumour about the boom. Jt started off with Poseidon, whose Bingera sugar mill was circulated by 'The 50c shares went to $250. I laughed in this Sunday Mail" writer, one of the writers Chamber nearly a year ago when the shares whom the Minister intends to have named. were $6. I said, "They have nothing but a I have often referred to a writer in 'The paper report", similar to today's report that, Sunday Mail", who was known as "The "Group Explorations has 3.44 per cent. Trader", as "The Traitor". He wrote articles nickel at East Scotia." That was the type of about companies and published rumours in headline published about Poseidon. an effort to influence people to invest on the stock exchange. He was one of the This is the sort of rubbish published by protected touts for the stock exchange. the Press, and Posiedon shares rose to $250. The Premier has given a $40,000,000 guaran­ I have here some newspaper cuttings which tee for the Greenvale company which has I do not claim to have accumulated in the .8 per cent. nickel. How does the Premier past few weeks. One, dated 1968, is headed know what price nickel will go to? Poseidon "Lost $4,000 on Broker's Advice." If it has not even started and it had 3.4 per cent. was not on the advice of a stockbroker nickel and went to $250 a share. Today its it would have been on the advice of a pen­ shares are $36, and they have been down to name in the Press, such as "Palmer'' in $34. "Sunday Truth" or "The Trader" in "The Sunday Mail". Tasminex shares, on a rumour, went from 60c to $90, and they are down to 67c today. Mr. \V. D. Hewitt~ This sounds like sour This applies to all of these rotten exploration grapes. companies that some Government members support. This Bill is being introduced in an , Mr. JENSEN: The hon. member should attempt to whitewash and protect those com­ understand that this is good common sense. panies because the Government cannot do He and I, who know something about busi­ anything about them. They are the capitalist ness, can examine a balance sheet and know companies that run this country. The Bill is something about it, and we may invest in being introduced so that these companies the company. Today, we could invest in cannot be sued in court. Some of them a business run by a Government member should be lined up against the wall. because we know it is a good, flourishing business. But tomorrow the paper assets An article in "The Sunday Mail" of 21 of that business could change completely February reads--- because of a rumour published in the ·Press, "A former vice-president and general or an unofficial telegram received on the manager of the Montreal and Canadian stock exchange. The book assets could Stock Exchanges arrived in Brisbane last move up from $2,000,000 to $10,000,000 week with an idea aimed at cutting the or back to $500,000. Australian paper work load." Government Members interjected. It would cut paper work if the stock exchange was not allowed to put these stocks Mr. JENSEN: I do not wish to enter on the market. I believe that a company into an argument with Government members. should be able to trade for two weeks when I have here another article headed, the chairman of directors publishes his ·~Respectable face seen as need for our stock report. If the report is wrong, he should bt! markets." It reads- gaoled. After two weeks of trading, the price "International investors will associate of the shares should remain stable till the the bursting of the speculative bubble in directors publish another report. In that way mining stocks with other sounder com­ the shares would not be traded morning and panies, which will suffer as a consequence." afternoon so that the assets of a company change every two hours. The assets of a Of course they will suffer. As the hon. company would remain stable and its shares member for Baroona said, the boom was on could he bought at that price as an invest­ in the sixties. Last year I said the stock ment, not a gamble. exchange would crash this year, and it did. The Treasurer tried to make a fool of me Mr. Lee: What if you want to sell? in the House when I made comments similar to those of the hon. member for South Mr. JENSEN: They could be sold at that Brisbane relative to the need for the Govern­ price. The stock exchange makes the priee ment to appoint somebody who will make after a fortnight of trading and the shares official statements on these matters. The should not be bought or sold other than at Treasurer said, "Do you want some inside that price. A new price wou;d not be created information?" That is the type of stupidity on rumours given to the stock exchange. The we hear from some of the donkeys on the stock exchange is a gambling den. The Government side, but I did not expect it Premier will not introduce poker machines from the Treasurer. In 1960 Reid Murray. because he believes they are a form of Stanhill, Palmer, and so on-mainly big gambling, and he will not legalise two-up. building and retail organisations-went But the stock exchange is a gambling institu­ broke. In that year, many small people lost tion, although it is supposed to be an invest­ their money and it took them a long time ment institution. I have studied the stock to recover. exchange for 10 years and have bought Securities Industry Bill [3 MARCH] Questions Upon Notice 2677 shares. I am not a mug who has swallowed the stockbroker's monthly report. He sug­ gests the purchase of certain shares, but tak~s no responsibility for what he suggests. He Is like "The Trader" in "The Sunday Mail", Alan Palmer in "Sunday Truth"' and "The Speculator" in "The Bulletin". They write articles every week for one purpose-turn­ over on the stock exchange. Is this business. or is it gambling? It is a shocking indictment of the State that it allows an international combine to run the stock exchange, just as it runs everything else in the State. I say to the Minister that he can do nothing to stop what happened with Minsec, and he could do nothing to stop Poseidon going as it did. Because of racketeering on the stock exchange, the British have lost faith in us. I have no sympathy with members of the stock exchange, and I do not think the Minister will be able to do much to protect the public. I was hoping that the Bill would provide protection for members of the public who want to invest in industry. We are asked to invest in industry. But how can we invest in companies when one that may seem to be a solid company paying 6 per cent., may tomorrow, because of some rumour or rubbish put about, be not a company at all? We have had such experiences with H. G. Palmer and Stanhill. Mr. Lee': You would be better to stick to fixed deposits . .Mr. JENSEN: I want to help some people out. I have made this study for only one purpose, that being to try to save the poor people who have been drawn in to invest in stocks and shares by newspapers who run columns of investment advice every day. They put it in headlines when things are going well, and they are allowed to get away with it. "The Trader", who previously wrote for "The Sunday Mail", lost over S 1,000 of his $5,000 in the last year. That shows how good an adviser he was. He had to invest in 8 per cent. securities because he was just about finished. If he had not done that, he would have lost everything. Yet he tried to get the poor unsuspecting working man, with a few "quid" to invest for his security, to make invest­ ments on the stock exchange. If such people think of stock exchange activities as invest­ ments, they are merely kidding themselves. If the G"vernment wants to protect the people, it is about time it told these invest­ ment advisers to get out of the State . .\fr. HUGHES (Kurilpa): Mr. Speaker, I move-- '"That the debate be now adjourned." Mr. SPEAKER: Order! The Chair does not recognise an hon. member when he rises to speak from anywhere other than his customary place. Debate, on motion of Mr. Hughes, adjourned. The House adjourned at 5.58 p.m.