SUB-COMMlTTEE C UN REVISED 1
JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM
MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before Sub-Committee C of the Joint Committee on INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM
Die Mercurii, 26° Julii, 1933
Ordeml by The House of Lords to be PrineJ 9th May, 1933 ~/ . .'" ....., .n',..t]\1\ Ordered by The House of Commons to be Pri 'JJ:. S ( 27th july, 1933 '
LONDON PRINTED AND PUBLISHED BY HIS MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE To be purchased directly from H.M. STATIONERY OFFICE at the f~llowiDc addresses
Adastral House1 KiDgsway, Loadoa, W.C.a; s:ao, George Street, EdiDburch a York Strect, Manchester 1; 11 SL Andrew's Crescent, CardiJI 15, Donegall Squue Wc&t, Belfast or throuch any Bookseller 1933 Price IS. od. Net H.L. 79{n) H.C. I I 2(n) SUB-COMMITTEE C.
DIE MERCURI!, -2&• JULII, 1933.
Present: The MA!RQUESS of LOTHIAN in the Chair. Mr. Butler. Mr. Foot. Major The Hon. E. Cadogan. Sir Samuel Hoare. Mr. Cocks. Miss Pickford. Mr. Davidson.
. DBLBGATBS : Dr. Ambedkar. • Sir Hari Singh Gour. Begum E'hah Nawaz.·
· Lady LAYToN, Mrs. 0. STBAoHBY and Sir PHILIP HARToG, are called in and · · · examined as follows : Marquess of Lothian, · tiona and Societies :r;nentioned in the Cl. Lady Layton,. are. you acting . as Memorandum ?-Yes. spokesman of . the Delegation ?-(Lady Layton.) Yes...... C3 . .And certain other individuals? 02. You represent the list of .Associa- Yes. The Memorandum is as follows: MEMORANDUM 50. EVIDENCE ON BEHALF OF THE BRITISH COM MITTEE FOR INDIAN WOMEN'S FR.ANCIDSE. . Co]l[l'OSITION mr Co:u:mTTEE.' ., provisions of that new Constitution 1. The British Committee for· Indian . will have to be approved by Parlia Women's Franchise represents over two ment, and the responsibility for those million women voters of this ·oountry, provisions must rest ultimately on the belonging to · associations 'with widely electors, both men and women. differing aims, and including members (b) Our Committee feel a deep oon of all political parties. Besides associa cern and responsibility in regard to tions a number . of ·Members of Parlia the provisions speciftcailly affecting ment, both men and women, and others women, This is the only occasion on specially interested in the subject have !Which organised British women as joined the Committee. fully enfranchised citizens have had the opportunity of effectively in- We are united in our derire to register 11 uencing the destinies of the women in the &trongest terms our protest against of India. the inadequacy of the proposals of the (c) The' Women's Movemen~ has White Paper in regard to women'• : always been international in its out franchise, and to urge the Joint Select look, bringing together women of all Committee to· make recommendations countries working with similar aims which will oecure a ratio of women to and ideals, and thus fostering a feel men voter•, both for the Federal and ing of solidarity among women. But Provincial Legislatures, at least equal to between the women of ·Britain and the ratio of one woman to four and a--half the women of India the bond is par men propooed by the Indian Franchise ticularly close.· It is a bond, not omy Committee. · of aasociation under a. oommon 11ag for 100 years, but a bond strengthened REASONs I!'OB TBB BRITISH .Co:u:mTTEB's by the ties of love and friendship in SUPPORT 01!' THB C!.AI:U:S 01!' INDIAN common social and educational work. Wo:HEN .ro AN .AnEQUATB FBANomsa, · • British women have watched with 2. The reasons why our Committee feel sympathy and admiration the rapid impelled to take action in this matter progress of the Women's Movement can be very brie11y stated. . in India, and are anxious to place (a) The problem of making a new at the service of the women of India Constitution for India is one which all the help that they can give from affects Britain as well as India. The their own wider political experienos. 20116 .AI 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SUB-COMMITTEE C
26° Ju!ii, 1933.] [ Oontinmd.
(d) The disabilities, legal and · ing tha 'Whole community, the influence social, from which the women uf of women voters has been most notice India still suffer, their lack of educa able in the increasing support given to tional opportunities, and tbe fact tanses such liB disarmament, housing and that for 150 years the government education, of India has been almost entirely in men's hands, make it imperative that lndion Women and the Fra...:hise. :women should be given adequate 5. It may be argued that advances for opportunity and power to express British women were spread over 11 long their views in the new Constitution. . period and that the small measure of (e) It is the declared policy of . franchise proposed by the White Paper is· Government to see that the interests a fair instalment considering the present of all sections of India's population status of women in India. It has always are fairly represented, and our Com been brought up as an argument against mittee wish "to emphasise the fact the extension of the franchise to any new that for no section of the community category of voters in this country, and is this more necessary than for the no doubt in others, that they are not women of India. sufficiently educated, politically or other wise, Tbie argument does not take into . Brituh Women and the FroMhise. account the great strides 'Which the 8. Not many year!! have passed since women's movement in India has made the women of Great Britain achieved full during the last few yeal'8, stimulated very rights of citizenship. Every step thns largely by the political desire for national won--opportunities of education, the self-government. A generous measure of entry into learned professions, rights enfranchisement is the surest . way of affecting the statns of wives and mothers, directing these energies along constitu political rights-wu won after a long tional linea. Experience has shown that and ardnons struggle, to which the entire the moat thorough and effective method working lives of innumerable women were of providing political education is to give de~m.ed and on whicll ~ast au11Ul of money the actual reaponsibility of the vote. were expended. Especially during the Further, those members of ont Committee illosing year!! of the struggle, much bitter who have worked in India wish to endorse ness wsa engendered and many unhappy the statement of the Education Committe& incidents took place. 1t would be a of the Statutory Commission, that " The grave misfllrtune it ill lbdill, whete the innate intelligence of the Indian woman, work of womett ill matty fields of llooial her feeling of domestic responsibility, her and edncatlottal effort is so ilorely n:perience of household . management, tleeded, A similar struggl@ becam~ tleces make he!' shrewd, penetrating, wise ilaty. within her own spher~~. In all matten of educational and eocial reform, the 4. Members of our Oammittee realise how much the vote has meant to the counsel and the active work of women are easential both in administration and women of thil fiOUnt.y. U has served public affaira.'1 both aa a meana of self-]lrotsction and as lln oppertuniU, f<>l' bringing their in 6. The grave legal and eociai diaabilitiea fluence to bear for the benefit of be which Indian women have for yearo bsen 1th11le community, especially in the realm attempting to remove affeet the efficiency of M>cial welfare. With regard to their of the 1thole nation. Girls' education l>wn protel!ti
26° Julii, 1933.] [Continued.
mellical .aid for women unless and uutil W omBn' • Fraaekue, · dome to proteri women admiuistrative medical officers are most etTongl!/ against tku modifioatioo appoiuted i.u each proviuce. of the FTGncki•e Comm.ittee'.• proposm, Ou such grouuds it is esseutial that un4 wroe tl•e Joint Select Committe• to - "Womeu should be placed iu a positiou to aecept Binr.ple lite'l"aily .., a qualification secure atteutiou to their ueeds from the f<>T the /Tanckiso /o'l" wom.e.. in ail pro very fouudatiou of the uew Coustitutiou ~ince•. If the obatacles alleged agaiust. aud doriug its most important formative 1t are admiuistrative, and theae can be years. The framing of a. new Oonstitu overcome iu Madras it is difficult to ti?n presents a unique opportunity which believe that they are insuperable iu other will have passed, once the constitutional provinces. Evidently they weTe not so structure ha.s talken definite shape and considered at the time when the Fran hardened along definite lines. Fresh chiae Committee uudertook its detailed vested iuterests will grow np, and it. may iuvestigations iu India only a year ago be iucreasiugly diflicnrlt for women to and made ita recommendations. obtaiu a fair share of educational funils Application tko Vote, and a. portion of admiuistrative posts if /OT these are not obtained at the outset. · 9. A second, hardly less important, . - . whittling down of the Franchise Com C,B.ITIOISH OP THB FaANcmsB PRoPOSALS mittee's. propoaals iu the White Paper OP TBB WmTB PAPBR •. ALTBRNATIVB ia the provision that a woman qualified SuooESTIONS. to vote· iu respect of her husband's · 7. The proposals of the White Paper property must l'Pply to be put on the register, though her husband is not actually reduce the voting strength for required to do so. ' women suggested by the Indian Franchise Committee to a. nominal ratio of one 'fhis proviso seems to the Committee woman to seven men for -the ProvinciJLl, not only an uufair discrimiuation between and one woman to 20 men for the Federal men and women, but one calculated to Legislatures. Can it possibly be claimed reduce the estimated voting ratio of one that such a. .franchise will give women an. woman to seven men to something very e1fective _voiceP . ,, , , _ far below that estimate. Even iu this country it would be found very irksome, Tke LiteTacy Qualification,'· bot for Indian women there is iu most 8. The reduction .iu numbers of the .places so much less freedom of movement women's vote iu the . White Paper pro than for Englishwomen that such a pro posals as compared with those of the vision, ;n the opinion of many well quali Indian Franchise Committee is due to fied to judge, could not fail to result iu the dropping of the proposed test ot' a. very substantial reduction of the poten• simple literacy as a qualification for tial voters. · ' · ·women voters. l'his test would' have; for, We note with satisfaction that the , women, the very great advantages that White Paper itself states iu this conne"" it would increase their votinQ!; strength tion-" Hi• Maioatll• Governmont ar.e as time goes on without further legisla v..-y anzi011• that tko proporlion of tion, that it would apply alike to the . women electors ·should be adequate and unmarried, the. married and the furlkeT consideration of the ~bovo widowed, to those who have _received their arrangement& may be Aece~&o:ry. u Our education at home as well as those who Committee, therefore, nrge most strongly, have been to school, and that it would that ·this new discrimination between men serve as a. stimulus to education,· both and women should- not be imposed. that of girls and that of adult women. If, however, the Joint ~lect Com It has the unanimous support of women, mittee should uufortnnately come to the both in England and in India. Accord oonclusion that the condition of applica ing to the proposals of the White Paper, tion is unavoidable, then it will be most only in the province of Madras is it re neoessary that the numbers thus lost taiued. In four provinoes the educational should be made up by one of the alterna atandard now demanded ia no less than tive qualifications auggested in the matriculation or school-leaviug certificate, Memorandum submitted by Miss Rath a atandard which very many educated bone (para. 16), or in eome other way. women have. had no chance of attaining,· for lack of suitable schools or because· FTanckiso /OT the Federol !.egi$latuT~. they were in purdah. W o momboT8 of · 10. · For the Federal Legialature, in the Britial! . Oommittoo for India.. order to secure an a.dequate proportion of 4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE BUB-COMMITTEE C
26° Ju.!ii, 1933.] [Continued. women electors, the Ind.._, Franchise electorate may conveniently be made Committee made two .proposals, viz. : (1) by adding the wives of the men property that for the first election the names of all voters for the Centre, whose names will women entered on the provincial rolls be readily available from the rolls of the under the literacy qnalification should be voters for the provincial councils, included as voters and subsequently re Franchise on H;.sband's Property Q1!a!i- tained on the roll and (2) that the edu fication, • cational qualification for women aftsr the first election should by the Upper Pri 11. Lastly, ~he British Committee for mary Standard. Indian Women's Franchise are aware Both these proposals are dropped in the that there is a strong feeling among White Paper, which lays down no special many, though not all, of the organised qualifications for women. women in India against the proposed enfranchisement of women on the Yet it was expressly stated by the property qualification of their husbands. Prime Minister in his letteP of instruc We should like to IPOint out that these tions to the Indian Franchise Committee Indian women's associations took their that: stand from the beginning on adult " His Majesty' a Go"ernment attack suffrage, because they believed it to be •pecia! imPQTta..ce to tke auestion the only means of giving representation of aecurino a moTe adeauate en/mln to all interests, including eaua! voting ckisement of women than tke ezist strength to men and women. We under ino Bystem, wkick applies to wom.en stand that they have now put forward as · tke aame aualification• a. to men, an alternative adult suffrage in urban and kas produced a women' • elec areas only. torate numberil!g !e.. tkan one twentietk of tke total male e!ec Our Committee fully realise the import tomte." ance of meeting the desires of Indian women, but in case the Joint Select And the White Paper itself again Committee should consider it impossible states that : to grant their demand in this respect, " His Majesty' • Go,emment fu!!y we wish to register our carefully con appreciate tke importance of a Iaroe sidered view that the granting of special women' • electorate for tke Federal qualifications to women, such as tlhe Auemb!y." · Married Women's qualification, would re In spite of these pronouncements, the present a far neare~ approach to- real ratio of women to men is left at its equality than the granting of a paper present low and totally inadequate figure. equality which would in fact enfranchise The reasons given in the White Paper only a minute proportion of women, are administrative difficulties and objec Members of our Committee desire to tions to a differential franchise based on record their own experience of the vote education. Our Committee cannot feel given on the husband's property qualifi tbat these difficulties are insurmountable cation. This was in use in this country (cf. Memorandum by Miss Rathbone, from 1918 to 1928 to supplement the para. 7).· independent property qualification, If, as we hope, the qualification of Altlhough there was at first some hesita simply literacy is accepted for the Pro tion in accepting this qualification, it vinces, then the roll so prepared should worked quite satisfactorily and caused no be used also for the first election for the resentment in practice in spite of the Federal Legislature, as recommended• large number of professional and in by the Franchise Committee. dustrial unmarried women in England Alternatively, our Committee supports who were excluded at the time from ex the suggestions made in several Memo ercising the vote. It raised the status randa, • that an addition to the women's of all WOillen by giving them an effective voice in the government of the country• • In the Memoranda submitted by (I) and that of married women in particular Mrs. Bubba Rao on behalf of Women by showing that the State valued their Mem.bers of Local Bodies in tbe l\ladras Prestdency; (2) Mrs. P. K. Sen on behalf experienoe aa mothers and home-makers. of Calcutta Mahili Bamiti, Bengal; •(3) It was also found that men who had Mrs. Hen~man on behalf of 150 women had misgivings as to the :wisdom of fr'!m lndta; (4) :Mrs. P. Bubbarayan; (5) granting the suffrage to women were r& lltss Eleanor Rathbone, assured by a conviction that the mothers OF THB JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL BEFOBM 5
26° Julii, 1933.] [Continued. of families were likely to prove a-st"Bbilis (1919) provides a precedent for dealing ing element in the community and to with a number of disabilities based on exercise their vote with a due senae of sex in a single comprehensive Act. The responsibility. experience of that Act also, however, Apart from adult suffrage, the wife's warns our Committee of the necessity for vote is the only qualification suggested very careful drafting, if comprehensive in tihe White Paper, which enfranchises declarations of this kind are to be really immediately any large number of women. effective in achieving their purpose. Should it be dropped and no other quali fication substituted in its place, the SUM:HABY AND CONOLUSIOK. women's vote would fall to about 14. The British Committee for Indian 2 millions for the whole of British India, Women's Franchise urge the Joitit Select making it entirely negligible in any Committee: single constituency and for any single (1) To a<:cept rimple literacy tu a candidate. qualification for the franchi&e for women in all Pro11ince& : OTmm PROPOSALS SUPPORTED BY THE (2) Not to impo&e the condition BRITISH Co>UUTTBB. of application for wom•n 110tera Upper Okamber. qualified in respect of their husband' • 12. No mention is made in the White prop.,·ty qualification: Paper of any provision as regards women (3) In the e"ent of the condition in the Upper Chamber of the Federal of application being considered un Legislature. Our Committee urge that a11oidable, to replace the numb•r of provision should be made to secure the -"oters thus lost by aome alt•rnati11e inclusion of a certain number of women qualification: in that Chamber and that the qualifica- (4) To increase the ratio of women tions required of members should be ad voters for the Federal Legislature by justed so as to facilitate this. re11erting to th• proposals of the Indian Franchise Committee or by FundOJIIIe_ntal Bight&. adding the wife 110ters from the Pro 13. We note from the White Paper "incial rolla : ([>age 37) that His Majesty's Government (5) To make pro11isiom for the in proposes to provide for what are com clusion of women in th• Upper Cham monly called " fundamental rights " in ber of the Federal Legislature: two ways, namely, by including certain (6) To incbude women in anyae provisions in the Constitution Act a11d claration of " fundamental right.." by recommending others not suitable for In conclusion, the members of this statutory enactment for inclusion in a Committee desire once more to urge pronouncement by the Sovereign. Our that, on whatever qualifications the fran Committee urge that _in both classes of chise is finally based, the women's vot provision, the case of women be taken ing strength should be made DIP at the specifically into account. -_ In matters very least to the ratio of one woman to. especially of _" personal liberty and 4t men, both for the Federal and Pro- eligibility for public office," it is de vincial Legislatures. sirable to guard against discrimination The Simon Commission, the Round. on the ground of sex no less than of Table Conference, the Indian Franchisa caste or religion. The Report of the Committee, and His Majesty's Govern Minorities Sub-Committee of the Round ment itself have repeatedly acknowledged Table Conference, 12th November, 1930, the importance of seouring an adequate to 19th January, 1931, states that: voting ratio for women. If the Joint " Ono of the chief proposals bt·ought Select Committee sincerely desire to before the Sub-Committee, wao the in satisfy tihe legitimate expectations clusion in the Constitution of a declara aroused among the women of India and tion of fundamental rights safeguarding of Great Britain by these repeated de the cultural and religiou& life of the clarations we feel confident that means various communities and securing to of surmo~nting the administrative diffi. e11ery indi11idual, without discrimination culties can and twill be found. a& to race caste, cTeed or sex, the free exerciae oi economic, sociaZ and civil The Association of Aesistant Mistresses. riohts." (Page 46.) In Great Britain, '])he Association of Women Clerks and the Sex Disqualification _(Removal) Act Secretaries. 6 MINUTES ·OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BBFORB BUB-COMMITrEE C
26" J ulii, 1933.] Lady LAYToN, Mrs. 0. 8Tu.AOBY and [Continued. Sir PIIILIP HAB-rou.
The British Federation of University Franchise for Indian womenP It has Women. no other purposeP-That is quite correct. Tbe Head Mistresses' Association. 05. And you claim to represent aome The London and National Society for 2,000,000 voters, which, I suppose, means Women's Service. the Members.of these other AssociationsP The National Council for Equal Citizen -That is so. ship. C6. Should I be correct in int<>rpret The National Council of Women. ing your Memorandum to mean that the The Standing Joint Committee of Indus- primary consideration you have in mind trial Women's Organisations. · is that the ratio of women to men voten The Women's Co-operative Guild.· should be at least equal to one woman The Women's National Liberal Federa to 4t men, rather· than any specific tion. detailP-Yes, that is 80. C7. I do not know whether yon have The Young Women'e Christian Associa had an opportunity of reading the evi tion•. dence which has been published in the The National Women's Citizens Associa- last few days in regard to the Women's tion. questionP-Yes, I have followed it very The Countess of lveagh, C.B.E., M.P. closely. The Viscounteee Astor, M.P. cs. Do you want to add anything to Mr. S. V. T. Adams, M.P. your Memorandum in the light of that Dr. Margaret Balfour, late Cbief Medical evidence P-I shoud like to h\' able to do Officer, Women's Medical Service, 80. India. · C9. Will you make a statement now, Miss Caton. then P-I should like to recall, first of all, Miss Thelma Cazalet, M.P. that the Organisations I represent do Captain V. A. Cazalet, M.C., M.P. really cover practically all the organised Lady Ch&tterjee. women in this country of all Parties, Mrs. Coatman. and doing every kind of work, and that Mn. Copeland, M.P. we have set out in our Memorandum Mrs. Corbett Ashby. submitted to the Committee what ·Miss F. M. Graves, M.P. they consider to be the mini Sir Philip Hartog, K.B.E., C.I.E. mum conditions that · will · ensure Lady Hartog. a reasonable enfranchisement of women Miss Florence Honbrugh, M.P. under the new Indian Constitution. Mr. J. Campbell Ker,, O.S.I., C.I.E., These proposals are far more modest than M.P. the claims of some of the· Indian Women's Mr. Hamilton Kerr, M.P. Organisations; but though we are fullY Mrs. Lankester. at one with the Indian Women as to the Lady Layton. immense importance, from a aocial, Miss Megan Lloyd George, M.P. economic and political point of view, of Mr. Geoffrey Le M. Mander, M.P. giving alt great a measure of political Major J. Milner, M.C., T.D., LL.B., power as possible to Indian women, we M.P. l'ecognise the ;pra~ical difficulties ex Mr. A. H. F. Molson, M.P. pounded in the Lothian Report, and we Mr. W. Nunn, M.P. realise tihat the full enfranchisement of Miss Eleanor Rathbone, M.P. women ID.eans a revolution in India, and Lady Reed. that it oan only be aocomplished by Dr. Agnes Scott, late Cbief Medical stages.' The Women's Organisations ha'Ve, Officer, Women's Medical Service, however, been profoundly disappointed to India. see that the White Paper has still fur Mre. Sha.w, M.B.E., M.P. ther whittled down the Lothian Report, Sir Walter Smiles, M.P. and in particular we regret that the Mrs. Tate, M.P. Secretary of State in lhis evidence has de Miss Irene Ward, O.B.E., M.P. fended the proposition that wives tof Col. Rt. Hon. J. C. Wedgwood, D.S.O., present property voters to the Provincial M.P. Councils should only be enfranchised· on application instead of being put on auto matically. This will so reduce the num ~: Would I be correct in saying tbat ber of women on the electorate as to thiS 18 a Committee specially constituted make it utterly inadequate. If I have for dealing with the problem of the followed the Sec1·etary of State's evidence OF THB JOINT COMMITTED ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 7
26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTOto, Mrs. 0. STiu.CBY and [ Oonti111Ued. Sir PBILIP HARTOG.
~orrectly, the main reMons for this are thou~~&nds of whom are in Purdah, and administrative difficulties; first, the miles from any polling station, with few administrative difficulty of enrolling postal or transport facilities, many of wives; and, secondly, the administrative them unable to read, to take this very difficulty of providing polling accommoda difficult step. Is it not a wholly un tion for so large a number of women at reasonable demand P In any case, the the first elections. As regards fihis first number who will vote at the first administrative difficulty, could not this election will be much smaller than be overcome by enrolling the wife merely at subsequent elections for all these as the wife of " Mr. So-and-So," and and other reasons. When it is making the husband responsible for her more fnlly realised that. issues of identification in the polling booth at the burning interest to the women · are first election, instead of attempting to under discuasion, and they realise the get the actual names of the wives from power of the vote, this :will change. We each individual voter? I understand should like further to suggest that, as that a canvass of these voters is, ·any with us, the ·women who apply will do bow, made ·at regular intervals for so mostly at the instigation of the most Revenue registers. It would surely not strongly organised political party ; in add very considerably to the admini8" India. this undoubtedly is the Congress trative burdens if, at the same time, !} party. Would it not be :wiser to encour note was taken as to which property age the political conscioumeas of the more voters had a wife or wives living. As re moderate elements in the .community, by gards the second point, the White Paper not increasing the difficulties under which suggests that its propoanls will enfran they must in any case labour P We would chise for the Provincial Councila one like to remind the Secretary of State and woman ~or every seven men as compared the Committee of the increasing part that with one woman .for five men in the the women h&ve taken in the recent Franchise Committee's proposala, but the political movements, and the importance Secretary of State .admitted, if I inter of winning their support in the building preted bia evidence correctly, that if three np of the new Constitution. We are quite million out of the 4,000,000 wives do certain that if the proposals in the White apply, which ia what is assumed in making Paper are not improved in this respect, up this proportion of ane in seven, tho there will be such strong feeling among administrative advantages in this respect all the organised Indian women in India would not be worth the differential that they will undoubtedly etir up diffi treatment of the women, but, obviously, culties which :will create quite as great expected that the •application would be administrative difficulties. as the pro some figure far less than this, whidh posals attempt to meet. 'We feel it would would mean that we should in the end get be 8() much wiser to enlist their support a proportion of women to men enfran by treating them fairly and justly at the chised of something like one in 16 or outset than to create unrest among all even something as low as one in 20.' It the Indian women who have so strongly would only be in this way that ·yon would supported in the pa.st all attempts to im get this second relief, a relief which I prove the health and social welfare of ..-enture to say cannot be obtained if the the people. It :would be so much better Wlhite Paper original proportion of one to enlist their support at the ontset than in seven aotually takes place. · This only to drive them to desperate action because oorroboratos what we have said in our they have been unfairly treated. Memorandum, that application by the Furthermore, I want to make it quite wives and dropping the literacy qualifico. clear that the organised women of this tioo will really enfranchies only about country, of all political parties and em one women to about 16 or 20 men-not ployed in every walk of life, are not pre. one woman to every seven men. In this pared to acoept the administrative dif!i.. country when the registers were left to oulties laid before us by the Secretary the Party machines to bring up-tKa.te, of Btnte as a sufficient rea.son to hand we all know how very few individual men over to the male voters of India the and women took the initiative, in problems of Child Marriages, Ohild Wei. advance of the excitement of an election, fare, Guardianship of Infants, the rela to get themselves enrolled. How much tions of husband and wife, the laws re more must thia be so for both men and lating to property, the whole gamut of women in India P Yet we ask the women, problems whose solution or neglect :will 8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORB SUB-COMMITTEE 0
26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. STB.&o&Y and [Continued. Sir PHILIP HARTOG.
do more than anything else to decide if adequately in her memorandum, which India is to be a peaceful, happy, healthy :we strongly endorse, but in a country and economically sound nation. A which has more than 5,000,000 wives Federal Assembly in which women's under the age of 15 and more than voting strength is one in 20, so low as , 100,000 child-widows under the age of 10, to be of no practica.l value, and in the and a maternal mortality estimated in Provincial Assembly one in 16, is totally some districts to be 40 per 1,000, and inadequate. •We urge you to accept, re even in the most healthy districts 20 to membering that the Simon CommiBBion 30 per 1,000, this, surely, Hhould give us after full investigation propoeed a pro pause before :we band over the power over portion of one to two, as the last Round these women without adequate repre Table Conference did, the proportion of sentation for them to stand up for their one in five as an unalterable basis on own rights and improve their conditions. which to build-·- For the last 150 years individual English women have done heroic service ·Mr. I100<: Foot. for women .in India, hut until the last ClO. A minimum basisP-Yes. I am deca.de it could be truly said that tbe obliged for the correction. -and throw men of this country had tbe determining upon the Provincial Governments during voice in regard to the ptatus of women the next three montlis the responsibility in India, so far .as it could be affected of finding the most administratively by the Governing administration. Also, poesible !Way of bringing this about•. In since the Montagu Reforms, women, reply to the defence of the Government though enfranchised on technically equal against granting a specially reduced terms, have only bad a voting strength literacy qualification to women, we ask, of 1 in 20, and the tendency of !>he new can yon defend the very inferior educa Indian administration, so far as Indians tional opportunities given to women, and have had control in the Provinces, has whether these do not justify the differ been still further to increase the dis ence P Sir Philip Hartog will give evi crepancy between girls' and boys' educa· dence on this point. Ae to the admini tion and to do very little to improve the strative difficulties, I should just like to medical treatment of the :women in the make one point. We note that in the villages. Since the enfranchisement of White Paper the differential qualifi~a women in this country, we feel that we tions to be prescribed for the scheduled share t4le responsibility, and that we classes are still under consideration. If should be betraying the interests of the literacy qualification suggested for Indian women if IWe acquiesced in Parlia this purpose by the Franchise Committee ment setting up a Constitution under is likely to be applied there, could not whlcb their representation is extremely oimilar methods for ito application be small, and the prospects of its extension equally well arranged for the women P extremely remote. For that reason, we This has been the only method proposed take a very strong stand that we shall so far for increasing at the first election not be prepared to accept anything whiob the proportion of :women voting for the gives a proportion of women to men in Federal ABSembly. We notice also that the new Constitution of less than 1 in 5. you consider it necesoary to insert in the I should like to make one or two remarktl Constitution a definite period during which we have not made in our Memoran which no change can take place in the dllm :with regard to the Federal ABSembly Franchise at all, and later say that the and t>he Oouncil of State, if thu.t is in Federal Legislature will, presumably, order now. We deprecate very strongly settle further advances for the Federa the election of women to the Federal As tion, and the Provincial Legislatures for sembly only by the transferable vote of the Provinces. This meano that this is the Provincial Councils. We feel that it the laot chance · for the British is most importa.nt that the nine women Parliament and public to inll nence in the Federal Assembly &bould really be the matter at all, and give the women free to apeak on behalf of the women of of India., who are anyhow in a minority the :whole country, and that if they are in the community, the power to get rid elected by tbe transferable vote of the of the grave injustices under which they Provincial Councils, by the communal suffer, to-day, to an extent proiJ!ably oouditions of those Councils they will in greater than in any other country in evita.bly be communal women, instead of the world. We will not dwell on these being free and specially chosen because in detail; Misa Rathbone hao done that of their capacity to understand and OF THE JOINT, COMMITTE!ll ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL :REFORM 9
26° J ulii, 1983.] Lady Luroir, Mrs. 0. BTBAOBY and [ Oontifi!Ued. Sir PHILIP HARTOG. speak for the :needs of the women of the girls. In the schools yon find one throughout the country. Alternative seventh of the total amount spent on methods of election have been put for education spent on the girls :who form ward in Miss Rathbone's Memorandum. half the population. You find a tragic We only want, to emphasise here our wastage in the schools. I snppose about reasons for this objection. , The 60 per cent. of the money •pent on organised women in India and the women - primary education of the boys, and about who !have taken an active part in bring 90 per oent. of the money spent on the ing about the Sardar .Act and in press primary education of the girls, is wasted ing for improvement in tlhe condition of because it needs four years under present education and health, are most anxious conditions in India, with the large mass to be sure that they will be actually in of illiterate mothers, to produce literacy, the Federal Assembly, and we very much and only a fraction of the children stay fear that the methods proposed may not for more than one year in the schools. have that, result, but that yon twill have I would like to correct my figure later women who will vote as ,they are told if necessary. I think it is only about ratlher, than women :who will be inde one-tenth of the girls who reach pendent spokesmen. With regard to the Standard IV. I put down that tragic Council of State, . we should very much neglect of girls' education and the edu like to know and we wish to urge that cation of the mothers to t.be Indian women should be eligible ; we are not public, to the Indian politicians, and to clear W'hether they are · so. at present, the administrators of India, Indian and and we wish to secure that the condi European alike. The policy that I found tions of election should be snch a.s to almost everywhere (I do not say there make the eligibility of a considerable were no exceptions) was a policy of number of :women possible; and, thirdly, spending all that you reasonably can on we make the suggestion that, if Indian the boys, and, if there is eomething over, Christians, Anglo-Indians and Europeans spend it on the- girls. The years 1917 can have 10 seats reserved for them to to 1927 include the period of reforms. be ohOilen by eleotorl!l colleges among all The increase in the direct expenditure the representatives of those communities on boys' education was, roughly speaking, "in the different Councils,, it might be seven times that on the girls', 832 lakba practicable for the women mem for the boys and 127 lakhs for the girls, bers of the Provincial Councils so that instead of trying to diminish the also to form an electoral college and difference between boys' and girls' edu elect one Qr two members. I have no cation the difference bas been increased, other particular remarka to make and the latest census figures show natur supplementing the evidence. Sir Philip ally that the difference in literacy has Hartog wishes to speak on the literacy been increased. It is quite obvious that qualification, and the practicability of a fundamental change is eaaential. I that, and Mrs. Strachey will speak on do not think you will get that change the reasons why the English Women's until the women play a greater part in Organisations are so determined, through Indian politics than they have played up the practical experience of what :we have to the present. That is the expressed aciJ,ieved through our enfranchisement, vie:w of the Simon Commission, and it is to see that the Indian women have the same opportunity that we have. (Sir the view of the Lothian Committee; it Philip Hartog.) May I explain, :first of is the expressed view of His Majesty's all, why I appear in this position. I Government, though I see nothing in have never been a politician in my life. the Whits Paper to translate that view I have been driven into fervent ad into facts. At the bottom of these vocacy of Women's Franchise in India, objections to using literacy as a qualifica because of my investigations us Chairman tion, what have we? We have the phrase of the Education Committee of the Simon '' Administrative difficulties; administra Commission. I discovered at the very tive impossibilities." To anyone who baa outset that the most important, and the worked in India that phrase is only too most neglectJed factor in Indian educa familiar. I suppose that I was met by tion was the education of the girls. You it every week, certainly every month, will understand in a moment why I say during the five years during which I was that. In India, according to the latest Vice-Chancellor of the University of census figures, lSi per cent. of the men Dacca, and it was part of my work t<> • as a whole are litel'ate; 2.9 or 3 per cent. show that :what I was told W&£ adminis- 10 IUNUTBS OF BVIDBNOB TAKEN BBFORB SUB-cOMMITTEE C
i6° ,Tulii, 1933.] Lady !.AnoN, Mrs. 0. SrJwmy and [Continued. Sir PBILIP HARTOG. tratively imrossible was, in fact, posllible, Mr. Butler. -.nd I suppo.ie rll8lly it is not only in C16. They aTe in the normal course India that one has been told that. of administrative procedure regarded Looking round this table I suppose there like so many other documents as confiden is hardly one of you ladies and gentlemen tial P-'-I suggest that they should not be who baa not done things which you were regarded as confi.dential to the Select told were administratively impossible. So - Committee whatever they are regarded I am not at all alarmed by that phrase. as in relJpect of the general public, be I am only alarmed by the stata of mind cause you will not get to the bottom of which it indicatas. lt corresponds this until you see what the actual objec exactly to the stata of mind of the tions are. ·. I do not mean to say that Governments who reported on the Simon there is not such a thing as an adminie Report, and I would urge this Committee trative impossibility, but it is a phrase very strongly to ask for those Provincial used very often, as we all know in India Reports in which it is stated that the to dress up a bogey sometimes. application of the literacy test. which Mr. Butler.] These questions were fully is recognised as possible in Madras, is gone into in the evidence which the impossible elsewhere. Secretary of Stata and his advisers, in cluding Sir Malcolm Hailey, gave before Major Cadogan. the Joint Select Committee, and these (,'11. Would you repeat that P-1 should administrative points were put to his like to ask that the Committee should ask advisers, including Sir Malcolm Hailey for the Provincial Reports which attempt and Sir John Kerr, and answered in soma to show that :what is possible in Madras detail, particularlY. in Questions 7416 and in respect of literacy is impossible in 4717 of No. 21 on the 21st July, 193.~. Bengal. Have they been circulated P Begum Shah NOJUJ(]4. Mr. l&ruuJ Foot. Cl7•. Are they the only points that the Cl2. The Reports which Sir Philip I.ocal Government as well as the Govern refers to are the reports which are already ment of India have referred to, or are available-the comments of the Govern there any more points with regard to ments?-They have not been published. those administrative difficulties of which :Mr. Butler.] Command Paper 3700. they make so muchP-Might I· be re ferred to the actual question? Marquess of LothW... Mr. Butler. Cl3. What report are you referring toP ClB. Question 7416 was asked by Sir Are you referring to documents to the Simon Commission or to the Franchise Hari Singh Gour and answered by Sir CommitteeP-No; the report to which Malcolm Hailey. Sir Malcolm referred to " a test electoral roll on the new the Secretary of Stata referred in his evidence. Are those available P franchise in certain selectsd areas. They were so selected as to be more or !eBB illustrative of what we might expect to Mr. Butler. find when we came to prepare the full Cl4. Those were not the reports to the electoral roll nftarwards." In that Simon CommissionP-No the reports on question, and in his answer to the next which the Wbita Paper was based. question Sir Malcolm details some of the Mr. C.oa.c Foot.] Does Sir Philip refer difficulties which a typical local govern to the Secretary of Stata's statament as ment has experienced in making an el"'l· to the administrative difficulties in toral roll?-Yes, 1 read those, but l making inquiries about wives of electors. think, if I may say so, there is absolutaly. Mr. Butle7".] The despatches to which not a word about litarncy in these two I think Sir Philip refers are the confi things. There is not a word .. · dential oomments to Parliament on the I.othian scheme which were eent by the Marquess of LothW.n. Provincial Governments. 019. I understand your main point is your argument that literooy ie a prac Begnm Shah N OW 26° Ju!ii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. 8TJu.OBY and [C01>tinued. Sir PBlLll' H.ul:roo •. creasing the proportion of t!he special would. They would start in an inferior classes--increasing the proportion of position of a oerioua kind-a numerically voters np to 10 per cent. in two Pro inferior position-and it is inevitable vinoes so that is recognised by Govern- that within a few years this same ment itself, and I cannot imagine what Suffrage Movement which bit na aa hard the special difficulty can be in other Pro would be troubling the Government of vinoe•·· The test is perfectly easy, I India. I think, unless a reasonably large rely not ouly upon my own opini~>n, but number of women get enfranchised now, by questioning some of the mqst. ex before the thing atarts, yon are laying perienced district officers of the past. who up aerioua trouble fo~ the future Con are now here. It is perfectly easy for & atitntion of India; not only that, but village officer, controlled by & tahsildar yon are throwing away the help of Indian ae suggested, to dictate a passage ·to & women which could be ao oonsiderable in would-be elector and to listen to that making amooth the progress of th'e new elector read it. The whole t!hing can Constitution. I speak very passionately be perfectly public. . It .is a perfectly en that subject because I was right in it esey test. I cannot help 'thinking that here in England. I saw women of those difficulties .have . been very much ability and real P;90sibilities of public exaggerated, but as I say it is quite service faroed to waste their time on this impossible fot me to come to gripS with barren, atupid, silly agitation for rights, the administrative difficulties until I see when they might have been helping on the on paper what they· are supposed to ·be, things they really cared about: welfare and none of the public has yet seen what of children, welfare of social conditions, t!hey 11re supposed to be. the various interests of their eountry that C20. Does that conclude your evidence P were real to all of them; but they could Yes, Sir. (Mrs. StTflchelJ.) I have only not get them because of this barrier three points to put forward. I cannot of disenfranchisement that .stood in the claim to speak of the Indian conditions, way •. because it is 20 year!l since 1 was there, Begum Shah Nawaz. but what I can claim to speak of is the way the Suffrage Movement catches hold C2l!. May • I know what was ~he pro of women, and that is certainly true of portion of women to men that you gol> women of all races and all nationalities. when you first were given the vote? I was in the British 6 nlfrage Movement Yes. Under the first enfranchisement of from the time I grew D·P to the time we women in this country, which was par got the full enfranchisement. I was its tial, !With an age limit of 30, not adult Parliamentary Secretary during the snlfrage and not on the same terms aa critical years, ·and I really know what men, in England and Wales there were effect the Suffrage Movement has on the 6,900,000 women voters and 10,200,000 females of the population. The more odd men voters: that is nearly seven to active politically-minded · of them ·· go 10. In the United Kingdom as a whole perfectly berserk about it; they cart do there were 8,400,000 women to 12,000,000 nothing else, an!l they can think of men which was 17 to 24. The proportion nothing else; they go perfectly mad fot was about one to li in each case. That their own rights and throw everYthing was followed, after 10 years, by complete to the winds. That is what yon are lay equal franchise, which at this moment ing np for the women of India if you do gives a very slightly higher number of not put them into this new constitution women votsrs than men in the country. when it starts. You are preparing, llOt My second point deals with the resnlta only a suffrage agitation, but a militant of enfranchisement, again arguing by agitation which will prevent all the more analogy from what hns happened here. active minded women in India from help In the 12 years which preceded the get ing on the new constitution. You are ting of the vote in this country there dragging them out of that and driving were four Acts passed 26° Julii, 1983.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. 8TRAOEY and .[ OontiM£ed. Sir PHILIP HARTOG. dealing . with Affiliation ·Orders for granted. Women have had the vote for separated wives. Those were the only local government for a considerably four Acta relating to women passed longer time, and they have been eligible between 1902 and 1914. Taking out the for local ·councils since 1907, but they War yea.rs, when everything was abnor were taking a small part in that work mal, we then come to the Suffrage Bil\ until the Parliamentary franchise was which was passed in 1918, ana in the given, :which aroused their interest in eight years which followed that there public questions and drove them, so to were 18 Acts directly affecting the in speak, hack to the detailed administra terests of women. I put aside things . tion of those questions and to an interest like housing and other things, which in local government; and every year relate obviously to· both men and women; since 1918 more women have come for but these are directly on women's own ward and have been elected on to borough position and special interests: eligibility councils, county · councils, rural district for Parliament, affiliation orders, mid councils, ur·ban district councils, and all wives, sex disqualification removal, in the local government bodies. ,. testacy (affecting the ;right of women to hold property), nurses' registration, main Major Cadogan. tenance orders, infanticide, married 026. I hope the witness does not think women's maintenance, Criminal Law I am unsympathetic-this has nothing to amendment (relating to the age of con do with my feelings about the question sent), law of property (intestacy again), but are you establishing an analogy matrimonial causes, sale ·of drink to between English women and · Indian children, guardianshiJp of infants, sum• women P You are giving information mary jurisdiction (dealing again with about English womenP-Yes, certainly I separation orders), widows' pensions, am trying to establish an analogy ... adoption of children, and the registra C21. Do you maintain that the educa tion of midwives, and maternity homes. tion and position of English women are ' Mr. l•aac Foot. the same as those of Indian womenP-No, clearly not. We needed the vote in spite C23. What period was thatP-Between of being well educated and well able to 1918 and 19~ight years. It ran along look after ourselves. The Indian women at the rate of nearly three a year, need it even more because of the diffi whereas before it was merely one every culties arising from the fact that educa three years. tion has not reached them yet. Much C24. Have you a Jist now shawing what as we needed it, they need it more, and has been the spate of legislation affect if it did all this for us, what wil\ it do ing women since you have become a for them? That is my argument. I was majority in tbe countryP-No, I have saying it waa not only Acta of Parlia not. I think that has made no appre ment :which have resulted here; it does ciable difference. With the partial fran afford an increase in ·the interest and chise there was not any appreciable contribution which women have been able difference in results as distinguished to make to local government. It is also from the complete franchise. the entry of women into administration, which is an exoeedingly important thing, Begum Shall. Nawaz. and, particularly, obviously important in C25. How many Acts do you say were a country where a large .proportion of passed during the earlier years of the our women population are in purdah. If present century P-From 1902 to 1914 you do not have women officials, how can there were four, and from 1918 to 1926 you hope to reach the women in purdah there were 18. I have not taken it be with the health regulations or any of the yond 1926 ·because, as the position of other domestic legislation of your Govern women beoomes more a.nd more equal in ment P It seems to me that the question this country, it becomes more and more of using the women in the administration difficult to differentiate between what of India is so obvious, and that, with are really women's Bills and what are the experience we have got in this not. It is not only legislation that has country, following the Parliamentary altered in this country. You find an franchise, you do get, in fact, an in enormous increase in the number of crease of women in administrative posi women taking part in local government tions, it afforda an additional argument since the Parliamentary franchise was for extending the franchise to women in OF THB JOINT COMMITT.I1.B ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 13 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. Sn..t.oJty and [Continued. Sir PlDldP IIAaToG. India, in the hope alao that that may with regard to that, except to restore lead to an ipcreased use of women in the literacy qualifica.tion. My otlher pr<> the administration, major and minor posal :with regard to the Federal As poeitions both, of the Government <>f sembly was with regard to the election India. That is my second point. The for the reserved seate. third point I can put very shortly. It C33. Have you considered at all the is, that the British women in this country possibility of enfra.ndhising the wives of :who are enfranchised citizens do feel ·very the existing .Assembly votersP-We strongly that they have a responsibility ahould welcome that, and be quite pre to the only nominally enfranchised women pared to accept any qualification of that in India and they are really concerned kind, · if it was found administratively about it. They are passionately anxious more possible'. Might I at tJhis point just tn help, and I am bound to say though add one word with regard to the literacy perhaps, it is not orthodox to sa; so that qualifica.tion, which Sir Philip Hartog did unless. women in India under this' Con not touch uponP We are very anxious ~itution do get a fair enough propor to see the literacy qualification restored, tion to be able to have some political because there are so many Indian women weight in the first few years of the new wlho are well educated, :who have been Co_nstitution, we British suffragists are educated in their homes, and are now gomg to h 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYro!t, Mrs. 0. 8mAclBY and [Continue<~. Sir PBlLIP JlARTOG. those women being elected in a con• ·by the Government really exists hecauae &tituency of eome kind eo tha.t people will of machinery of men being universally get used to electing :women to the employed for the purpose of getting at Federal A...,mbly, and the :women. in the women voters. Ia that not soP-That ia Federal Assembly will be conse10UB of quite ao. their responsibility to actual men and 041. Consequently, what yon demand is women for the work that they are doing. that women also should be employed for C36. In that constituency, there should the purpose of securing the electoral :roll be both men and women voter~ot of women voters and then the question women voters onlyP-We should prefer of purdah and seclusion would not appear that. a.t allP-We have not made any specific C37. Then the other pra.ctical point proposal of that character. I am not was the representation in the Council of quite clear from Sir Hari Singh Gour's State. Your euggestipn there is that question whether he is speaking of thE! instead of its being left vague what application of the wives or of the literacy alii!Jibility qualilica.tions uray ma.ke it qualification. difficult, it does not make it impossible C42. I am really speaking of the ad for women to be returned; that women ministrative difficulty which the Secre should be treated like the Indian tary of State stated to the Joint Select Christians, Anglo-Indians and Europeans Committee of getting all women on the and the women members of the Pro register, and, therefore, making the rule vincial Councils should be made members more rigid in the """" of women that of an electoral college for returning one only the wives who put in an applica or two women. Am I correct in saying tion should go on the register P-I think that these are the practical proposaJs our a.nswer to that :would he, first of all, that you want considered for dealing that undoubtedly both women's organisa Wlith the admllristrative d\fficulbiesP tions, teachers and women inspectors, That is so. could be utilised in pla.ces where there was likely to be any difficulty in getting Sir Hari Singh GoVII' the names of the women; hut it would C3B. I understood lAdy L&yton and be still ea.sier; it aeems to me, to revert Sir Philip Hartog to question the state-· to our actual proposal, that at the first ment that has been made by the Secre roll, when it might he difficult to enlist tary of State, ar rather by Sir Malcolm all these outside people, it ahonld be Hailey, :with regard to the administra anfficient to find from the male voter tive difficulties anticipated, on the ground whether he had a wife, or not, and to that tbe administration at thq. present put it down merely a.s the wife of " Mr. moment is all man-made and man-run, So-and-So." When the voter goes te and you suggest that if this inquiry were the poll, the husband would be responsible made throngh the medium of women and for her identification and the name could there were aome women honorary worken be taken; and on a second poll, you and stipendiary worker• appointed for :would have the individual names; but for the purpose of preparing an electoral the first roll, which is, I imagine, the roll for the women of India, that ad primary difficulty administratively, that ministrative difficulty would disappear P aeema to be the simpler eolntion. If that -I feel convinced that that is so. is not anfficient, undoubtedly the C39. But when you have the difficulty suggestion that is put forward by Sir at the present moment, for example, of Hari Singh Gour would meet with our the purdah system, that is to say the entire approval, and I can say that the oeclusion of women SY'!tem, when the organised women of India. heve immedi low paid village accountant getting a ately replied, on hearing that this objec salary of about £1 a month, £12 a. year, tion had been made, that they were quite goea to a circle of villages, the women oertain that they oould a.ssist any investi naturally do not want to come before him gation of that kind that was made and but if you have a school mistress fo; see that it was successfully carried instance, in that locality to go round and through. put dawn the names of all women, there 048. Now the next point I wish -to "!'ould not be the aame difficulty P-That draw yanr attention to is that even after 18 80. all is said and done and the wom~n get ~- A~ tbe. present moment, the ad what they want, their number of votes mlDtstrattve d1fficulty that is pointed out in the Local and Central Legislatures OF TH!lo JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 15 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. &rlu.CEY and [Continued. Sir PHILIP HARTOG. would be very small ·compared with the of India. should be a matter for · the number of men who would be Teturned, Legislature of India? and that for the last 150 yea.rs, under Sir Hwri. Singh Gour.] No. My point the reform enfranchising women, remov.. of view is this, that the disabilities from ing 1iheir age-long disabilities for the Which the women of India suffer, and acquisition and inheritance of property have suffered, for a long time past, might and improving their social status, social be at lenst partially removed at the time reformers jn India, ·both in the Legisla that the new Constitution is promul ture and outside, have been confronted gated by a Committee being appointed. with these difficulties-though the diffi During the Simon Commission there was culties would still remain, and women the Hartog Committee on Education, a will have to fight their own battle for a Committee on Franchise, and Committees long time to come, but now that Parlia on various other subjects dealing with ment is establishing responsible Govern the Constitution. It is suggested that ment in India, do you ~;~ot 1ihink that it there should be a Committee appointed is up to Parliament to appoint a. Com for 1ihe purpose of eradicating some of mittee to inquire into the present status these outstanding evils from which the and disability of the women of India, women of India suffer and then for the and to take a bold step, at aey rate, to rest leave them to help themselves. place them on a. reasonable footing of Mr. Isaac Foot.} I suggest, with all equality, ond then let them work out respect to Sir Hari Singh Gour, that their own· salvation in the future Legis that is a. matter which would be for the latures ?-J am not quite clear as to discussion of the Committee and not for what Sir Hari Singh Gour means by his questions to these ladies. question. Marquess of Lothian.] I think so, yes. Begum Shok Nawaz.] May I add one Sir 1Iwri. Singh Gour.] We have been thing? Moat of the disabilities from pressing upon the· Government that Par which the women of India. suffer are liament professed to be the trustees of social disabilities, and no Parliamentary 1ihe people of India, and we have been Committee can possibly remove them. pressing upon the Indian Government, Sir Hari Singh GoUT.] The next point and through the Indian Government. the I wish to ask is this. Sir Philip Hartog British Cabine:tr-- has very rightly pointed out that there Chairnmn.] Sir Hari, is this a proposal is a tremendous amont of wastage of which relates to the Constitution? girls who are brought into the school for Sir H01ri Singh Gour.] Yes. This is a primary education, and the Hartog Com proposal which deals wiiih the fact that mittee emphasised that fact in their Parliament is now going to transfer its valuable Report submitted to the Simon powers and, in iransferring the powers, Commission. Has Sir Philip any sug what .:Ve suggest is that these radical gestion to make a• to how this wastage disabilities, from which the women of might be . reduced, if it cannot be India. have been suffering for a long eliminated P time past, should be removed by Parlia Marquess of Lothian. ment by appointing a. Committee and giving them such reasonable facilities a.t C44. Sir Hari, may I ask what has the present moment before announcing that got to do with the Constitution? As I understood, Sir Philip's argument its decision in this matter. was an argument for seeing that wome'D. Marquess of Lothian.] Do you mean should have adequate representation in that the Parliamentary Committee should the Legislature which will have to deal alter ~n the Legislation of India affecting with these questions. Is that not oarrect? women? 1 think the idea. is rather that -(Sir Philip Hcvrtoo.) Yes. this is a. matter for India. That you Marquess of Lothian..TI think we have are creating Legislatures which will be got to keep these questions to the points empowered to deal with these things, which have a. bearing upon the Fmn and tJhe question is whether the Women chise and the new Constitution P of India are going to have an adequate E'ir Hari Singh Gour.] Very well; then vo'.ce in those Legislatures to see that I have finished. matters affecting them will be properly Begum Shak Nawaz. dealt with. 045. I want to know something from Mr. Davidson.] Does Sir Hari really Is it mean this, that the future of the women Sir Philip Hartog about literacy. B 20116 16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE BUB-COMMITTE& C 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. STRACBY and [Continued. Sir PHILIP limToo. not a fact, Sir Philip Hartog, after all (Lady Layton.) I think that is so, and the experience you have had in connec it is because of that that we feel that tion with the Education Committee, that if you have an election in any con in most of the homes in the villages the stituency women will have a chance of girls study at home. Most of the literate standing really as representative women women that you will find in the villages and will be elected as against any woman have read more OT less, in their own who stood as & communal woman, if you homes P-I' am afraid, Begum, that is not have a general constituency; we are so· a matter of personal knowledge. I have anxious that that should happen for the heard that said, and what is quite cer reason that it is the only way of edu tain is that if you take the wealthier cating the people what the women's ques classes in the villages, you will find the tion means and how Parliament can touch children do not go to the echools, but it, and it is the only :way of educating if they are educated, they are educated women for the time which is bound to at home; they must be; there are no come after the first two elections, when secondary schools in the villages. they will have to ·be elected on their own C46. If the educational qualification merits and their own strength and capa is to give the vote only to women who are city to pull a constituency. We feel that, holding some certificate or another, if they are elected indirectly to the either of primary standard or matricula Federal Assembly, when the first elections tion, would it not mean that most of the pass, and the period when they have prominent women workers belonging to reserved seats passes, they will not have my generation as well as one or two had the opportunity of electoral experi genera tiona back, would ·not get a vote ence which is necessary and of putting under the educational qualificationP I themselves before a general constituency, do not get one, because I do not possess which is the only way in which they would any certificate of primary standard or have a chance of being elected later on. matriculation P-I can say quite certainly C49. You would agree with me, would that a considerable number of the most you not, that if there are to be reserved distinguished women in India would not seats for :women, such seats should be get a vote, if there had been a literacy provided for them in all the Provincial test, or if they had had to depend upon Legislatures, in the Upper Chambers in passing matriculation, or some school any Province where they are constituted register. and in both the Central Legislatures P C47. Would not it mean that by not I would certainly agree, particularly in accepting literacy you are keeping out 4 the case of Provinces which have not most useful, intelligent electorate that now got reserved seats. We understand yon ought to have for the new Consti that they have not been reserved because tutionP-I should say that you would ex they are backward Provinces, and that clude a number of very able women un seems to us the very reason why it is less they came in under some other most 111ecessary that you should have qualification, such as the husband's pro women on the councils. In those councils, perty qualification, or their own property the condition of the women and the power qualification. to make themselves felt on the councils, C48. You said something about in to improve those conditions, would be far direct election to the Legislative Assem greater than in the more advanced Pro bly. Supposing that the propos.,) em vincial Councils such as Madras, where bodied in the White Paper of the in the women are sufficiently organised and direct election to the Federal Assembly strong enough to bring pressure to bear, were to stand as it is, would not it mean even if they have not got actuail reprl! that in most of the Provinces where the sentation. extremist party would be in power, C50. Under the White Paper p~o because they would be the majority in posals there is to be a high pro the Provincial Legislatures, women be perty qualification for membership of longing to that party alone :will be elected tbe Upper Chamber. I think you as members of the Federal Assembly and are aware that the women of India -vic£ 1.'eraa P In the case where some of are asking that this high property the orthodox parties will be in power, qualification should be supplemented by in many cases women belonging to the an educational qualification in order to moderate section will not have repre make more women eleigible for member.. sentation on the Federal Assembly P- sbip of that House. Would not you be OF TBE JOINT OOMMITTEB ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM • 17 :26° Jutii, 1933.] Lady LAYToN, Mrs. 0. &B.AOBY and [ Continu•d. Sir PlDLIP ll&aToo. prepared to support that claim of the of carrying out legislation · on the Indian women?-May I ask if the BeguDI women's behalf in. the Provincial Coun Shah Nawaz is "ferring to the Council cils and in the Federal Assembly, the of State~ fihing that matters il that you can bring C61. Yea?-If that is· the only method inlluence to bear on all yo.u Members of by which eligibility of any :women to tho Parliament. The fact that yon can Council of State oou\d be efiected, ..., inlluence 13 per osnt. of them is not should be willing to propose that, but much use, even thongh that intluence can the other method that W& put forward, be a very weighty one. It. ia quite true, of the e\ectorl!ll roll, might be more on as the Indian women themselves state, the same footing as the present elections that they are perh!'pe more organised in for that Council. · the towns, and you may have ao mora educated expression of the women's view C52, In paragraph 13 of your Memo in the towns and it might be very valu randum you la;y stress on the funda able, aa soon as practicably pOBBible, to mental rights clause for women. . You feel have an increased franchise in the towna strongly; as the women of India do, do before it ia possible to extend it throngh. not you, that equality between the tw<> out the conntry. But we do stand by our sexeo with regard to their fundamental first proposals, that we cannot accept a rights should be· made clear, either in the position :which leaves the 1100men less re Constitution itself, or it should find some presented than one woman to five miDI. place somewhere in , His !Majesty's Pro voters, not in one or two constituencies clama tion, or iu the Instrument of In but throng 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. STru.czv and [Continued. Sir PHILIP HARTOO. all the time laying great emphasis on and do you propose permanently to placa the necessity, while handing those over, women in a superior positiOn (whatever of safegnarding the rights and im the developments in India may be) over proving the disabilities of those classes men by making a provision in a per of the Indian population who are in a. manent ConstitutionP-(Mrs. Strochey.) minority, or who are suffering under any It is not a. permanent Constitution. My unfair treatment. We are taking special answer ia that you are not .making per care of tho labour population. We are manent provision. After a. period of taking special care of the scheduled years the electoral arrangements will be ca.stes. It is incomprehensible to us that, l' 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. 8TBAOBY and [ Oontinued. Sir PBILIP Rmroa. plea (I recognise it very well) has been come to get their fn1l voting strength equality as between men and women . but that is one woman to one man ?-That ~ at the same time, there is a plea' that so. there should be not equality but prefer C64. In almost every country women . ence ~d differ~ntiatio!' both in repre ·are supposed to be a conservative ele sentation and m qualificationP-May I ment. You would agree with me, would answer that P yon not, that if the women of India by ·Marquess of Lothian.] Is not the point getting this voting strength, have .:.me this, that, while there is legal equality of their social disabilities removed, there ~e effect of the White Paper proposal~ would be a tremendous stabilising force Is that. only one :woman will get the vote lll_lder the new ConstitutionP-I agree as agamst 15 men at the Centre, and ·with yon, although my experience of one woman as against 20 men in the India is a very brief one, but I saw Provinces P · sufficient of India to realise what a very big inllnence the woman does ·play, Mr. Butler. whether in purdah or out, and in the · C61: l'hat is an interpretation which home life, and I think there is no doubt we cannot necessarily shoulder. Might in onr own minds and from what we I give a further reference to Sir Philip have heard from others, that it will be a HartogP Questions 7433 onwards al"" re tremendous stabilising inllnence in India once the women have had the political in fer to the difficulties ~-(Sir Philip Hartog.) I was going to refer to them. llnence which we all need before we can bring our weight to bear; and once they Begum Shah Nawaz. have had the education and the oppor tunity of administrative work it will 062. Is it not the fact that almost all make a tremendons and profound differ the women's organisations are not ask -ence in the whole developmen't of lndia. ing for any reserved seats.. All they ask 065. Would I be wrong in saying that is that you should give them their fnll if the united demands of almost all the voting strength, 6().50 P-(Lady Layton.) women's organised Indian bodies that are That is what I wonld have liked to say at present working for educational pro to Mr. Davidson. The Indian women gress and social uplift are not given fn1l them!\6lves would like adult franchise consideration by the British Parliament with absolute equality, but, as that is at this stage, it will only mean that not a practicable possibility, :we are ·ask they will be turning their activities to ing for the nearest equivalent to it in slogans such as " No Taxation without voting strength. We do not think one fnll voting strength "?-That is what I in five is sufficient. Without having think is likely to happen, both from one's adult franchise we think there ought to experience of the activities which are have ·been a much closer proportion than now taking place in India and of what that, but we are prepared to support that happened in this country. (Sir Philip as a minimum proposal, but the Indian Hartog.) Might I just supplement what women themselves do want in the long Lady Layton has said and the Begum has run, and in everything they have said said about the conservativo inllnence of they have stood for, equality, and, as womenP you get closer to adult franchise· in Marquees of Lothian. India they will be the first to ask that C66. Jnst give us the reference; I any special reservations and special con .. think we all know the Simon Commission ditiona shall be removed. •With 1·egard Report by heart?-Yes. It is my own to the communal questions which Major Report, page 151; t;'ection 13. Cadogan spoke of, I understand that this Committee is not dealing with that, and Dr. B. R. Amb•dkar. that the reservation of seats is all part C67. I would like to ask ·One question. of that decision, and that therefore we I do not know whe£her you agree with are really not at liberty to give any me, but I suppose when you press for answers on that point. votes for women, I think you also desire 063. Is it not a fact that some of the that the franchise should be so devised women belonging to the moderate seotion . that the women who will be brought upon· are prepared to accept these rsserved the register will be drawn from all strata seats just because they feel· it will not of Indian society, and not necessarily · be possible for them for a long time to drawn, either from the upper strata or 20111 Oll . 20 _ MINUTES 01' BVIDBNOB TAXBN BBPOBB BUB-COMMITTEE C 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. 8TBACBY and [Oon.tin...... u-. Sir PBILIP BAaroo. the middle strata or the lower strata ex coat money, if they are tO be put through clusively; that there ought to be some and that would require taxationP-Yea, proportion of the women on the electoral - I quite appreciate it would. - roll to the communities from which they 072. And all women may not take the are drawnP-As far u is practically same point of view with regard to that; possible, certainly. they are likely to divide on the basis of C68. I mean, it is not your case that the class to which they belongP-Yea. I you want this mathematical ratio of 1 to can give you two answers to that. Firat 4 or 1 to o, but apart from that ratio, of all, ta.ke the education point of view. you would also desire that all women If you have a certain amount of money from all eections should be on the regis to divide on education, :women of every terP-Certainly, as far aa possible, we class would agree that it should be spent do want to feel that' the urban and rural -equally on men and women, whereas,- if voters and the different sections will be you have not got women with sufficient adequately represented. pressure to 'bear, you will still go on _ C69. Yon will also agree, I suppose, spending a great deal more on the boys that if the education qualification or the than on the girls. In the first place, that property qualification were fu:ed higher, is one of the things that has to be seen the result of that would be that you to. Also, I would say this : The women would be getting on to the electoral roll of all classes who are taking any active women drawn from one section of Indian interest in welfare are pressing that there aociety alone P-That is so. I would should be a larger proportion -of finances 1111pplement that by saying that if it were spent on education. I think you could administratively possible, we should safely trust to the women of most classes welcome, and we have pressed in our to take that line at the present moment, Memorandum, that the wives of the lower but I should be very glad to see the fran pi'Operty qualification should be enfran -chise taken as near as possible, and that chised, and not only the wives of the is why I do lay particular importance Higher Property qualification. - upon the literacy qualification. Any C'TO. What I am anxious to get at is woman who is inteHigent enough to be -this-whether yon attach importance to of any value to bring any preasare to the point which I am putting to you, bear at all, ; can make herself literate namely; a well proportioned distribution within a reasonable period, and if you of the women's voting strength through have the literacy qualification, and any out the population, or whether you section of women feel strongly that the merely attach importance to the pro aection of women which has the vote, is portion of the man voter as against the not taking the vote, they have the :weapon woman voterP-We attach importance to in their hands, and it is for that reason both those factors, but we think that the that I have always been so strongly in women's interests for the moment are favour of literacy, and it is for that aufficiently safeguarded on this :particular reason that all the organised women of question. If you have a sufficient number India are also in favour of literacy. of women enfranchised in all the dis C73. I am aatisfied, as long as you see tricts for them to represent the other my point of view. Sir Philip Hartog, women, the women who are not enfran .I just want to ask you a question about chised, we would like to eee it aa low as literacy. We have really no information possible, and if it is put at a certain as to what the administrative difficulties place now we would like it to he moved are, as they are alleged to be, against aa soon as practically possible. We our adopting literacy as a teat for the fran selves would certainly wish to see it Jl8 chise in the case of women, but what I low as poBBible. We would be prepared understand the difticultiea to be are to ask for adult franchise, if it were these: Firat of all, it is suggested that practically possible, but we realise it is there are no certificates available which not administratively possible. . _would enable a registration officer, off· C71. Might I put the eame point in a hand, to satiafy himaelf that a woman eomewhat different manner P Of course, falls within the category required under all women are interested in mattera of Jiteraoy, end, therefore, would in •.be BOCial welfare; that ia quite true. The · position to he pat on the roll off-hand. woman'a point of view may be quite That being the 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTm<, Mrs. 0. BTBAo.Y and [Continued, Sir PHILIP H.mroa. examine and his certificate should be numbers. The total number of literate countersigned by a tahaildar. I think women is estimated in the Lothian Re the administrative difficulty that is sug .port to be a million and a. quarter. It is gested is this : How is a village officer to on page 86 of that Report. Of those, approach a woman in the village to find 345,000 are in Madras, with regaro to out !Whether she is literate or notP Wou'ld whom there is no difficulty. That leaves you make it depend upon the woman over for the rest of India the relatively who wants to get her vote having to small number of 875,000. Now, if it was approach and make an application?-(Sir possible to put 345,000 Madras women Philip Hartog.) I think that is the only on the rolls for one election, and that possible way. She ·would have to have mnst have been done at eome time or sufficient interest to say, either herself or another, why is it impossible to pnt through her husband : " I wish to be 875,000 women on the rolls for the :whale placed on the roll; I am literate and am of tile rest of lndiaP willing to be tested." , Mr. Butler: Mr. ButZer. 076. I think that question was 074. How does that differ from appli answered somewhere in the course of cation ?-(Lady Layton.) I do not think the Secert8)'y of State's evidence~ First we have objected to application on the of all, the conditions are, I think, quite part of literacy in our Memorandum. different, and, secondly, !Madras has a We do not object.. We think that the register .based on local Government re people who are already recognised · as turns, .which makes it easier to. adopt the literate in any educational qualification ·qualification there. That is found in the that is admitted should be put. auto answer of the Secretary of StateP-I am matically on the roll. Beyond that. it aware of Question 7435; ·I have got must be a matter of application.· marked on my copy those answers to which Mr. Butler refers. I know in Dr: h. B. Ambedkar. 7435 the Secretary of State said he · .d75. So really this objection raised on thought it would pnt an unbearable the basis of inquiries made in. hGaseholds, strain npon the administrative machi. which might be ()bjectionable, would not nery, but unles• one sees what the de arise?-Never. {Sir Philip .Hatrtog.) tailed objections are, one cannot answer .May I just say, it seems to me to be an detailed questions· of that kind. From appropriate point. to make reference to my experience in India, I am familiar two answers of the Secretary of State with general statements of that kind, bearing directly upon the point which and am quite familiar with the way they has been raised ··by Dr. Ambedkar. In brenk down under cross-examination, and answer to Question 74S7 the Secretary still more in actuail practice. ·of State . said' " In future, for future Mr. Oocka. generations of girls or !Women, it will be a comparatively simple matter to adapt 077. Lady Layton, I understand, tak ·your educational registers and returns ing the Provincial franchise first, that lor electoral purposes, but in Provinces under the ·proposals of the Franchise where. that has not been done hitherto, Committee, the Lothian Committee, they _there will be very considerable difficulty recommended a proportion of 1 to /i, or in doing it for the first election." Now, the result of their recommendation would ·I should like to point out that if you be. 1 to SP-(Lady Layton.) Yes. "Nad that with another answer of the C78. Under the White Paper, I under :Secretary of State, he says at page 817, stand ~t is estimated that the proportion will be about 1 to 7. Do you thinik Question 7214 : " There will be no change for X years." In answer to the :Mar it will be .as much as that P-I feel quite .quess of Salisbury,. be suggests that in convinced still more by the Secretary of the Act of Parliament he would say for · States evidence out of his own mouth that it certainly will not be 1 in 7., bnt X number of years there can be no more like 1 in 16 or 1 in 20. 1t was for alteration of the franchise. Conse that reason I made that statement at , quently it would be of little use to have the outset of my speech to-day, because a register for the second, third or fourth it was quite clear from the Secretary of ·elections, if 'those ""cond, third or fourth · State's evidence ·tho'c there _, two eleotions came within the period· ef X admilristra.tive difficulties jn mind when • Ye&l'B. Let me take the question of 22 · ·• MINUTES OF EV'IDBNOE TAKEN BEFOBB SUB-COMMITTEE C 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. STRAOBY and [Continued. Sir PHILIP HARTOG. the application was put in; one was the administrative difficulty of :finding out the namea of the wivea; and the second was the administrative difficulty of hav ing to poll so many women at the :first election. Now, you <>annot have it both ways. You <>annot say you are going to bave 1 in 7 and at the same time say: " This is splendid; we shall be able to rnn this thing because we are really only going to have about 1 in 4 applying." It is for this reason that we think it is rather disingenuous to pretend 1 in 7 in one breath and at the same time to justify as your reason for doing it, that it IWill make it mucli easier to be nominated, because there will be less women going to the poll because they will not. apply. We are quite convinced the second argu lW'nt is right. If you take this country, we are quite sure if you left it to the women of this country at the :first election to apply for their vote, you would have nothing like the proportion of 1 .in 3 or 4 applying. In this oonntry, without difficulties of purdah or getting to the polling booth, or going out and appear ing before the public and taking part in public life, I am quite snre in India it is a oonservative estimate to think that you are going to have 1 in 4. I, myself, wonld not be at all surprised if it was much less than 1 in 4. I think that after the first election, when things have warmed up, or when the organisations have got going, and the women have begun to realise that certain things were going to be discnsaed in the House which they were concerned :with, the political parties will be able to bring that up, but at the first election I am aure that will not happen. The only party that would be able to get people to apply would be the Congress Party, because that is the most adequately organised political party, and they wonld actively wort< to persuade women to go and apply but I do not think you will get th~ !"ajority of women at this moment doing 1t, and that is why I think it is such an unfair thing ~ have done, in regard to w_omen who, m any ease, will fi.nd it d1fficnlt to go to the poll with all the transport difficulties, dist~nce and pur dah, and so on-to add to their problema by giving less than this differential quali fication of application. We do feel that most strongly. · C79. You want to abolish the condition of al?p.licationP-We want to abolish the condttion of application as regards OF THE JOINT OOMMITTBE ON INDIAN OONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 23 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. BTBAOPJY and [Continued. Sir PHILIP HARTOG. cation during the next two elections dur women should have a real voting strength ing .which. period you are going to give there. •Whatever may be said for the the :women the opportunity of pressing possibility that women in their own Pro . for educational opportunities and make vinoea may be able to el 26" I ulii, 1933.] Lady LAY'I'ON, Mrs. 0. BTBAOIIY and [Continued. Sir PHILIP HABroo. being adequately represepted. It is not the ChairDtan'a rema.rks as to whether as though you are just belancing two thoy · are actua.ly · eligible under the thinga which are of equal importance. present regulationo. - One is vitally important to the whole Marques of Lothian..] They are not future of the women of India. eligible for the Council of State to-day, Marquess of Lothian.] I think you bnt they would be, I understand, nnder have made the point very well. You the White Paper for the Upper House. ' must not get into a ~~eries of speeches. ' Miss Pickford.] The · Secreta.ry of State's evidence ga.ve that. Mr. Cock•. C94. Can you give the estimatecl. num-· . · · Begum Shah Nawao. ber of women who would be enfran . ClOl. When both the Houses are to ehised under the White Paper and the have almont equal powers do you think .,.timated number who would be enfran the one or two tba.t you are suggesting chised under your proposals P--For the is a sufficient number P-I think tha.t they Provinces under the Franchise · Com should be in a position to be able to in mittee's proposals there are 6,61!0,000 odd crease tba.t number by their eligibility. estimated. Under tlie White Paper you I was only speaking reo.lly of the actual have that very difficult problem as to reserved places if it is decided that it how many women you think are going should be done in that way. · to apply; whether out of the four million - . who could be enfranchised, three million Mr. Cocks.'·· 'Will apply, or two million or one million, Cl02. You know tbat the- Governor and that is entirely a question of judg General ha.s. power to nominate ten ment; but I have deduced from the member, to the Council. Would it ~~&tisfy Secretary of State's evidence that he only you if it were said that one of those really expects something like one in four must be a womanP-Tha.t would be to apply rather than three in four, in better than nothing, but I am sure all which case you would reduce your four India.n _ women themselves would .fa.r million to about one million wives. Add prefer to · ha.ve some kind of electoral to that two million, roughly,· property roll, as I have proposed, of the wom!ln women voters, and that leaves yon with in the different Provincial Councils, three million as against six million. electing one or two or three ·members, C95. For the . AssemblyP-For the than to have it done by nomination, .Assembly the important point is the pro- becan~~e I think they :would again feel {lOI"tionJ. · that .. woman who ...... elected would be C96. I wanted to know the numbersP more likely to be a freer woman and a Tbe numbers of women under the spokeswoman <>f the right type than <>ne Franchi,., Committee ·are li million- who was nominated~ :i• 1,578,151. Under the White Paper they • 0103. In the last .ten of :fifteen yearo are 300,000. . tremendoWI changes have been taking C97. Only 300,000. · That is for 'the place in India. Do yon not .think one Government Of all IndiaP-Yes. · of the most Temarkable of th011e changes has been • tha political awakening of Begum BM.h Nawaz. · Indian womenP~I think it is quite one C98. Out Of 165 million womenP-Tbat of the most remarkable. It has gone a out .of about 63,000,000 adult women. forward a.t a. pace which nobody oould have thought possible, and which. I Mr. (locka. Bhould think bas no parallel oywhere in the world. It is quite extro.ordinary, C99. For the Council of State you are and 1 think what we ought to remember asking for certain special eeats. How is tha.t the stimulna to-day h.., been the many would you 1uggestP~We suggest national feeling of taking part in a. new one or two as a. proportion, bnt 'we have self-governing community. That has not really made """definite propoeala as to. numbere. .... • been the ma.in stimulus in the last few yearo. That is why I think it lWould be ClOO. That is what you have in mind P so very unfortunate' if that is Jloj -We have that in mind; but the main reoognised in the ·· propooals of . tlre thing alao is !>hat -they !lhould be eligible Government. . 1 •• ~ ~ In some way. We are not clear whether · 0104. You knOIW the Franchise Sub they are eligible. · I was not clear frmn committee of the Round Table Conference OF THB JOINT COMMITTll.B ON INDIAN CONSTITOTIONAL REl'ORM 25 26° Jv:tii, 1933.] Lady L.t.now, Mrs. 0. &ruon: and [ 00flti..,.etJ. Sir PIIILIP lluToa. said that no system of Franchise can be we have made ela.borate allowance for considered satisfactory where !11100. a great 6Verlapping, a.nd so forth, and that realJy disparity exists between the two sexes, the grooa figure ie of a v&ry satisfactory and the Prime Minister's letter said that nature and comes within the o per cent a proportion of one-twentieth was not IW1hich yon yourself advocate? · satisfactory or adequate. Bearing those two things in mind, do you think the ; Begum Shah N a1DfJo. present proposals of the White Paper are clearly ilhrowing over both the Prime · tJ109. And also application for registra• Miniater's and the. Round Table · Con tion P-I realise yon h&ve made alJowance ference's TiewsP-We think they are for the overlapping, but I also realise entirely throwing them over, and we you have not mad& allowance for the think the Secretary· 9f State's evidence number of people who will not be likely !tas shown that even more clearly than to apply under the wife'a vote when they the Whit& Papet itself. have to apply, because yon specifically ,. state th& number of people you a88Ullle lllr; Butler.· will apply, :which is three-fourths, and it i• aftsr that that you make your allow C105. Have you, in· your consideration ance. of literacy, considered the question of the overlap· which is bound to take place Majo~ Oadouan. between those who :would be qualified for CllO. There is no means of Mimating literacy and those who would be qualified that at all, is thereP-There ie no meaDs for property, or a :wife'$· qualification? of estimating it, hut the Beoretar.r of Yes, we have taken that into account State hi:meelf made it quite elear that the and I understand in all the ligures that Councils were counting on the fact that have\ been brong 26° J ulii, 1933.] Lady LAnoN, Mrs. 0. BTBAO»Y and [Continued. Sir PHILIP HARroo. than the ratio of men eleotors when you seats reserved for women are a very are actually taking the proportion of great advance on anything hithertoP :women who are likely to apply as against In India? ·· the proportion of men voters who actually 0117. YesP..,-Yes, certainly, they· are go to the poll ?-No, surely not. It is an advance on anything hitherto. because the figures are not put clearly in the report. I am comparing the num 'Mr.· David&on; ber of women that it is estimated are CUS. I have only got one or two ques likely to apply (that is those that will tiona to ask. I hope that my interven be on the roll) to the number of•men who tion earlier in the proceedings was not who are also on the roll. I am comparing taken to mean that I am not in favour the two sets of people on the roll. of every possible advance in the condition of women in the world at- large, and Major Oodogan• . especially in India ; I think my political 0113. Those who apply, and those who record would justify that. I ahould like intend to vote P-It is quite true if you to ask this question. Do you agree that apply you probably mean to vote, but if in the production of. proposals for fran you think of the conditions of Indian chise, they must, in a Constitution Act, women to-day, or of any woman for that apply equally to the whole of the coun matter, it does not necessarily mean when try to which they apply? ..I mean by the particular date comes for the elec that the question of literacy. It is per tion abe will be able to vote. There are fectly easy to argue, is it not, that in many things that prevent ovomen voting. the south of India, where political ad There are the practical difficulties of vance and the absence of purdah and the getting to the poll which mnst be much use that the women. have made of local more great in India. elections, and so forth, if that were eet as the standard for All-India, it might Mr. ButZer. not work out practically?-Yes. 0114. May I put it to you, when you 0119. In other. words, one has to try are working out thoee rather large per and strike a mean which will enable the centages :which you have given us, which franchise proposals to work as a praeti, the Government cannot aooept as being cal proposition P-Yeo. . . . . likely to be true, you ahould work ·out 0120. Secondly, do you agree that some the proportion of actual men who go to weight must. be given to the evidence of the poll as against the actual propol" those who have had the practical work tion of the women who apply, and I ing of elections in India,' and that their hope your faars will not be justified by evidence must be of some value P-I agree the actual ratio P-I do not think that that 801De consideration must be given would be a fair comparison, because, if to it. There is nev<~r any likelihood that so, you have also got to reduce the pro conisderation will not be given to it, portion of your women, who vote on the because, elearly, they must .play a very property qualification; that is your important part in any decision ; but 2,000,000 has to be reduced by about 60 there is always a danger of the man per cent. if you take the last elections, who is running a thing close to it losing and your figures are completely different. the wood for the trees, and that is the I do not really think it is praticable to danger which I see has arisen with ~egard attempt to compare the proportion of to this problem. men who did vote at the last election 0121. Would you agree also with the ovith the proportion that are likely to vote proposition that it is impossible ·to obtain at an election in which India is, for the absolute perfection .at the first .election first time, responsible. . . , nnd"" any Constitution P-I agree, yes. 0115. I was not asking you to take the 0122. We ought to aim at getting as last. I was asking you to forecast the naar as we can to- itP-Yes.. future, and to take the same standards 0123. You will also agree that political for both men and :women, that is all P""'" organisation in. India is in its infancy P If you :will make tha men apply for their -Yes, but not such an infant as it was. vote as property voters, I am quite pre- ·Cl24 .. And that ·a great many of the pared to do that-not otherwise. , difficulties wit4 regard to. the possibility Cll6. May I ask you one general ques of the women exercising the. votes that tion P Do you not accept that the White are given to them may be remedied by PapOT propoaala in respect of the ·num the more. intensive political organisation .ber of women ..oters and the number of !If the women in the future, evljll as OF THB JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 27 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LAYToN, Mrs. 0. &rluOBY and [Continued. Sir PBILIP HA.RToe. regards its effect on the application of introductory statement was that unless women · for the vote P-I agree, but I !Women in India, or in other· countries, should like to qualify that with this re have a substantial proportion of the votes mark , If the women are put in such in the country, it is not worth while for a very inferior .position, they may not candidates and members to pay particular bother to put any pressure behind the attention to what may be called women's application, but they may be, as Mrs. questions, and that the history of thia Strachey suggested, so bitter about it country may be said to .Prove thatP-Yes, that they may do what appears to be that ia quite so. · unreasonable, and instead of educating' 0128. And, not only do you anticipate their sisters to apply and to become that it will be the asme in India, but literate, a.nd to do all the things which that the hiatory under the last 12 years we should like them to do, they may of the ReforDlB goes to prove thatP-Yes, merely make themselves as unpleasant as that is so. they can and try and work up among Cl29. That when the proportion of the illiterate population, a population of women voters to men voters in India which is very easily· swayed, a movement has .been as 1 to 20, in such subject• 8!1 which may cause a great deal of trouble, education, which Sir Philip Hartog has and may prevent the admin]stratio!' drawn attention to, women, or rather from carrying ont · other things in · a girls then have a very small proportion reasonable manner: · of the funds availableP-Yes, that ia so; 0125. But does ·Lady Layton think not only a very amall proportion of the that where provision has ·been .made for funds avail&ble, but a smaller proportion the enfranchisement of a large body, than they had before. but .not a large enough body, naturally,· 0130. And that would be true with re for those who· wish a larger body-but gard to other social activities, such aa, assuming that provision is made for the for instance maternity and child wei- enfranchisement of a large body of wom~n fare and general' < health sernces• P-Yes ; and the reservation in the local Councils and might I say, we all know we are of actual eeats for· women, · tha1i. the going through a difficult time economi~ women's movement is likely to die m ally, and .India is not free from thts IndiaP-(Mrs. Stroclr.ey.) May I anewe:r difficulty. . . that P This Committee must know very 0131. That is the point I wanted to well that the Indian women oo not like come on to next, that it !Would be recog these :reservations at all. What they nised that India, like other oountries in want. is aduH franchise on an equal the world will not have so mueh money basis and no reservations. The only to spend 'on social and other serv1ces. aa reason why tliey could be !!o~ ~ work she might wiah to have, and that, ther!"' happily with this propoeal 18 if ~t gave fore the distribution of the funds avad them substantial numbers. . . If 1t does able' will be a matter of the first im not . give them substantial . numb~rs,. all portanceP-Yes .. their theoretical and genume obJection& 0132. Do I take it then that your to special treatment and reservatiol!, will main line of argument is that it ia of be revived, and I am perfo:ctly .convmce~ the first importance that women shall that you will 'find t~em. m hot ~p.posl• have a voting strength sufficient to make, tion to the whole thing unless th1s pro not only candidates but also Legislatures, posal is so adjusted as to give them sub pay attention to their desiresP-Yes, that stantial numbers and enable them to go is entirely my view; it is exactly what I into real political questioll;" oth!r . than have been trying,to put forward .. this beastly question of their own r•gh~. 0133. And that you lay more Import 0126. Then your fear is that they :Will ance upon the volume of voting than up<>n be driven to agitate outside the Const~tu the actual methods by which women tion and not to work for the Constitu shall be brought upon the electoral roll P tionP-certainly. (Lady . Layton.) I -Yes, that ia so. · . entirely agree. 0134. D<> you also lay very great im Miss Pickford.· p~rtsnce to the distribution of th"";" votes fairly throughout the coustl• ' Cl2T. I 'do· not think there is very tuenoes P-Yes,. for the same re~so~. much left for me to ask, but the~e are .. C135. Therefore, without Wtshtng. to just one .or. two points I ;would lilke. to support.. any particular method .of brmg bring out. Am 1; right in unders~andmg ing women upon the roll, does 1t appear that the main line of argument m your . 1,. ' . 28 MINUTBS OF BVIDBNOB TAKBN BBFORB SUB·OOMMITTEB C 26° Julii, 1933.] Lady LArroN, Hr,. 0. &rBAoBY and Sir PBlLIP .JlA&TOG. • Cl39. I was going to sa;y that it has to you that what bas been called the the further merit that it is an auto qualification of the wives of the property matically increasing qualification without boldera does not only, bring on the requiring any change ill the franchise )a.rgeat num~ of women, but also in the qualifi.cationP-Yes, administratively so, fairest distributionP-In the present atate and it is one of the things which the of ladia and having .regard to the ad Government of India would like f~l' that ministrative dillicrulties, l think · that reason.· . _ ia so. Cl40. ls it a fact that under Provincial Cl36. And therefore, for that r&Mon; Autonomy the majority of the question& you feel that the ovivea' qualification will which affect women J(lcially, 'What may bring pressure to bear on . all .con• be call~,. P 26° Ju!ii, 1933.1 Lady LAYTON, Mn. 0. BTJw:noy and [Continued. Sir PBILIP liABTOa. the time that these are all wide India that cover the whole of the Federal problema;. they . are.· nof; eommnnal Assembly, and7 moreover, it is always probl4ms. , possible for a woman to be elected as one 0146. But on the gerteral question, your of the other Members; there is nothing to Committee reoognisea that under a limited prevent her being elected in the other franchise, inevitably limited owing to the capacity but it; seemed to me that the present state of development in India, reserved seats for the women at t;be it is necessary to oonsider together the moment in the Federal Aeaembly is for question of franchise and representation. a particular purpose, in order that they They cannot he considered in watertight may voice the women's questions and compartments?-No, I entirely agree. women's problems. It is a temporary position, and as such they are in a much 0146. Now just a final question on the stronger position than if they 'had been special representation for the Federal elected directly. Assembly. Yon have taken objection to Cl48. I think your suggestion for a the White Paper proposals for the special special seat, if any, in the Council of representation in the Lower House of the State, the Upper Honse, was that the Federal Assembly. · Have yon taken into woman or women :who shonld go there consideration this point, that women would he elected by ali the women repre elected by the whole Provincial Council senta.tives in the Provincial Councils P are indirectly representative of the Pro Yes. vince, as a wholeP-We have taken that Cl49. Do you realise that very strong into account, and I wonld aay myself objections have been made in India to a that :when I first aaw the proposal, I was special :women's electorate, and that the quite prepared to accept it; only, on electorate for those special women's seats thinking it over and meeting the criti is composed of both men and women P cisms that the Indian women themselves Yes, I do realise tha.t, and if any other put forward, did I realise that jjbey were alternative method of finding a means really just criticisms. I quite saw the of electing one or more women for the advantage of a woman feeling that she Council of State oonld he found, we was representing the whole Province; I wonld he quite willing to accept it. I think that is an advantage. On the do not lay any particular stress upon, other hand, there is this other point, that that particnlar method. The Organisa. this is· a. temporary thing. Lady LAYTON, Mrs. 0. BTBAOBY &nd [Continued. Sir PBILIP :HARroa. 0152. Every one of them has had the should be upon the same basis as the opportunity of considering itP-Every one men, but 'bb.a t every exception should be of them, and they are all represented on proved by the necessity of the country's the Committee which decided the lines oonditions, &nd should ba as far as pos on which it IlVas to be drawn up, and sible temporary. Ia that broadly your which saw it before it was cireulated to ·viewP-Yea. · the Committee. .. , 0153. Broadly, the position ia that you Marqueaa of Lothian.] Thank you 'very tlhink thGOretically the women of India much. (The Witneuea are directed to withdrato.l •... - Ordered,. That Sub-Committee 0 he adjourned to Saturday next, 10.30 a.m. ' .. (20116-l) W\ 1121 Po1636 1000 7/SS P. S~ G. 836 SUB-COMMITTEE C 1 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SUB COMMITTEE C OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM Die M erourii, 26" J ulii, 1933 LIST OP WITNESSES. PAGE Lady Layton, Mrs. 0. Stachey and Sir Philip Hartog ... 1 SUB-COMMITTEE C ·UNREVISED • 2 JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before Sub-Committee C of th~ Joint Committee on INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM Die Sab~ati, 29" Julii, 1933 Ordered by The House of Lords to be Printed 9th May, ~933 Printed by direction of The Clerk of the House of Commons pursuant to the Order of The House of 9th May, 1933 ' LONDON PRINTED AND PUBLISHED BY HIS MAJESTY'S ST.\TIONERll OFFICI> To be purchased directly from H.M. STATIONERY OFFICE at the f'!Jlowing adtlre:ss~s Adastral House, Kiugsway, London, W.C.~i uo, George Street, Ed~aburgb 11 York Street, Mnnchcster 1 j a, St. Andrew's Crescent, Cardiff 15, Donegall Square West, Belfast or thJaugh any Bookseller 1933 Price 2s. 6d. Net H.L. 79(u) H.C. 112(u) DIE SABBATI, 29° JULII, 1933. Present:- The MARQUESS of LINLITHGOW in the {Jhair. Marquess of Lothian. Mr. Davidson. Mr. Butler, Miss Pickford. Mr. Cooks. Delegates:-- Dr. Ambedka.r. Begnm Shah Nawaz. Mr. Jayaker. I Sir Hari Singh Gour. • RAJXUKAlU AMBIT KAtrR and Mrs. !LunD ALI are called in, and examined as follaws:- Ohainnan. Cl54. Rajkumari Amrit Kaur and 0155. You have been good enough to Mrs. Hamid Ali, yon are here on 'behalf provide ns with Memoranda marked 49 of the All..India Women's Conference, and 56, which you now hand inP-Yes, the Women's Indian Association and the they are as follows :- National Council of Women in India P (Raikuman Amrit Kaur.) Yes. MEMORANDUM 49 ON THE STATUS OF INDIAN WOMEN IN THE PROPOSED NEW OONSTITUTION OF INDIA BY THE ALL-INDIA WOMEN'S CONFERENCE AND THE WOMEN'S INDIAN ASSOCIATION . . After a careful consideration of the We are etill of opinion that only the •proposals embodied in the White Paper pi'Oposala made in our first memorandum with regard to the status and enfranchise :will confer upon women equal political ment of women lin rthe .prqpoeec!. new status, but as they have not been accepted Constitution of India, we representatives on the ground of their supposed imprac of the All-India Women's Conference and ticability, at the present moment, :we feel the Women's Indian Association find that obliged to make iihe following new they fall far short of iib.e demands made proposala :- in our memorandum of August, 1931, Fum>AJONTAL RIGHTS. !Presented to the seoond Itound Table 1. We urge l>hat the recognition of the Conference, princi3>les of equ 29° J ulii, 1933.] • [Continued . . mould find a definite place in the declara 2. ;we strongly object to the election of tion of the Fundamental Righte of women to the Federal ~mbly from the citizenship in .the Constitution -Act. Provincial Legislatures by the Indirect 2. We desire to point out that the word aystem as proposed in the White Paper " Sex " has been omitted from page 29, (para. 4, Page 75, Append'ix II). para. 75, of the introduction bD the pro 3.-{a) We earnestly recommend that posals fur Indian Constitutional Reform, men and women should obe equally eligible as embodied in the White Paper, and it for membership of the UPIPer House. should he inserted. · This should be clearly mentioned as the existing practice does not allow women FBANOIDBB AND RBPRBSBNTATION. to stand for the Upper Chamber of the Council of State. 1. Though we feel strongly that Adult (b) We recbmmend that property Franchise is -the best method of en qu-alifications llhould he enpplemented by franchising men and women on e. basis oof educational qualifications for the member equality, we would accept as a temporary shiP of the Upper House. measure--until such time as universal 4. In MEMORANDUM 66. MBMORANDm< 56. SUl'PLBlllm 29o Julii, 1933.] [Continued. FRANCHIBB AND RE!'RESBNTATION•. matter, we are in entire agreement . ·Although Adult Franchise has •been with the minority opinion of the publicly declared and accepted by British members of the Lothian Committee. and Indian authorities as the desired " The chief factor is the area of .goal we deplore the fact that the White constituencies and not the Paper proposals for franchise have failed number of electors, and owing to utterly to inspire us :with the hope. that the proposed increase of the size we shall reach this goal within a reason of the Assembly the area of every -able period of time. constituency ;will be much smaller While we fully agree with the Indian than at present. Therefore, even Central Committee that Adult Franchise if the numbers are increased as would be the ·best means of emancipating we propose, the task of can- women-and it would seem impossible . didates will he easier than it is to do full justice to the claims of women at present. · . The argument of and the poot millions of the country administrative convenience is without universal suffrage--we em more in favour of our proposal phasise once again' that the alternative that that of the majority." proposals embodied in our Memorandum (Minute of Dissent. Report II. are put forward by us only as a tem of the · Indian Franchist porary measure until' such time as 'our Committee.) goal is attained. Moreover, the problem of numbers has Chiefly .concerned and anxious as we got to be faced sooner or later, and we women are to possess the means of are firmly convinced · that a definite furthering the cause of economic, educa- beginning on the right basis can be made ;tiona!, social and medical reform,· we at once. We are emphatic that the true .consider it · essential that as large a spirit of reform, without :which no · number of .women as po88ible should be national progre88 is po88ible, must in no brought immediately on to the electoral wise be sacrificed at the altar of admini.&- roll so that our voice may be a deter- trative inconveniences. mining factor in influencing and shaping While on the subject of " literacy " as tAle policy of the Provincial and Central a qualification for the franchise,. ·we con- Governments in matters of such vital fess to our utter inability to understand importance to the nation. the logic underlying the recommendation , (a) We, therefore, strongly recommend in the White ·Paper for " literacy " in · the " literacy " qualification for the Madras <>nly-educationally the most following reasons:_ • advanced Province in India-and higher (i) a much larger number of educational qualifications for the other leBB advanced Provinces. Such a recom- women will be enfranchised under mendation will eliminate from the elec- this than under the higher educa- toral roll large numbers of women who tional qualification proposed in the are educated but will not be able to White Paper, "Literacy" · would produce the required examination certifi- give us 1,255,000 voters, whereas the 'catea. Indeed, a vast number of Upper Primary Standard would only women, who are to-day taking a enfranchise 500,000. prominent part in our social and educa· (ii) a qualification of this nature tiona! activities, will be debarred from will be an incentive to ·education taking their rightful place in the public amongst the illiterate classes. life of the country. (iii) it will bring in a larger per- (b) We recommend the same property centage of voters for the Federal qualifications for eligibility to vote In Legislatures which io eBBential in the elections to both Provincial and Federal interests of aocial progreBB and will, Legislatures inasmuch as these will give incidentally, minimise such adminis- us 1,9"...9,000 women on the rolls and for trative difficulties as must arise if the same reason as given above in sup- the electoral roll for both Provincia: port of the " literacy " qualification. and Federal Legislatures is not the .. (o) We disapprove strongly of the pro- same. '11he· proposed increase in posed enfranchisement of the wives and numbers for the electoral roll for the widows of persons possessing th~ property Federal AMembly is, in our opinion, qualifications for the following reason.:- fully iuotified if this body is to be a (i) Such a proposal is a dir'!ct really representative one anq, in this negation of the recognition of the OF THB JOINT OOMMI'l'Tlm ON INDIAN 06NSTITUTIONAL REFORM 35 29° Ju!ii, 1933.] [Continued. ·"woman's inherent right to citizen the furtheranoa of the very causes ~hip. There is no reason whatsoever,. for which we are working is con in our opinion, why the women of cerned. We attach equal impOrtance India should not he enfranchi,..,d to the quality ao we!! aa to the independently of any extraneous !11U>11>tity of the woman' • 11ote. factor, and we :would like to Hence it is that :we nrge with all the emphasise that on this point there insistence at our command the adoption exists a very strong feeling amongst of our alternative proposal, viz. : edult the members . of our OrganisatiollSI franchise in urban 8reas• because:- who perceive that they, as women, . (i) We shall he placing forthwith . are in themselves a vitaley. integr"l on the electoral roll approximately part of the body politic. The import between five and six million women ance and value of the effect of thiS' a number which, together with the psychological factor on the minds of women enfranchised under the beth men and women must, on no literacy and property qua.lilioa.tions account be ignored. We would here above mentioned,. is the very like to Point out that 0ur traditions minimum that will satisfy our present and social conditions being wholly demands and needs. different from those of the women ~ (ii) Such a franchise will, we feel, of the West the argnment that in ensure for us a more intelligent and, England, tor example, the wife's v~te at the same time, a more independent proved useful is not necessanly and well organised rote--factors of applicable to us, having regard to the the most vital moment to us at this fact that we do not to-day possess juncture. "t!hose facilities for freedom and (iii) Difficulties in the =tter of co education which they possessed at ordinating the woman's vote on a the time of their enfranchisement on sound and worka.ble basis will, :with this basis. out doubt, be minimised for the main (ii) We know full well that this. · women's organisations throughout the proposal will only serve to double country. . the vote of the landlords and (iv) The rural vote in. India be.ing capitalists-a section of the most so very much greater lD numencal conservative and orthodox members strength than the urban v_ote, adu_lt of society-who are, generally speak suffrage in urban 'BJ'eas wil~ not, 1 n ing, invariably opposed to all P"!" our opinion, disturb the rat1o to any gressive reform5. '!he recent ~pposl· . perceptible extent. . tion from this sect1on, who :w1ll con (v} The interests of Indian wo~~n stitute the majority of voters to the in urban and rnral areaa bemg Councils and Federal Legislatures, identical it :will be an incalculable to the Ohild Marriage Restraint Act, asset to' our Organisations end the The Hindu Widows' Inheritance cause of reform advocated by them Rights Bill, The 'Raising af the Age to feel that the true welfare of of Oonsent Bill, The Removal ~f dwellers in !loth areaa is in the safer Untouchability Bill, is an unequlo keeping .t,o.day of 8 more enlightened vocal proof-if proof were needed-:-<>£ and intelligent electorate. the cogency of our argument agamat (vi) Our proposal will oartainly further strengthening the hands of B entail l91B diflicultiea aa far aa tho oommnnity wnich has always been Administration is concerned and, ~t . nnintelligibl:y conservative and rea<> the same time, relieve the latter '~ tionary in its outlook. considerable measure of the e:x:pe~dl (iii) In so far as the 4,236\000 ture inv-olved in the _reoommendatiOu• women sought to be enfranchised proffered by the Wh1te Paper.. under this· proposal will be scattered '(vii) The increased vote m the over the length and bre~_th ?f urban areas will also help to re~urn India-leas ·than half a ;m1ll.10n In to the Councils and Federal Leg>•la• each of the 11 Provi)lce-lt Will be a tures a larger number of ~omen matter of supreme difficulty f~r the ndid te while men candidates educated womanhood af Indu• to :turo:d ·~n ~he strength of the co-ordinate the woman's vote . on right lines, and the numerical • Vi~tetRepport43 opfa~!e9Jf~~adei~lhl~~i~f 1 strength of this vote ~ll, ·therefore, Comm1 ee, · ' · . urban areas. he a negligible quant1ty so far as E2 2'1116 36 · MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE BUB-COMMITTEE C 29° Julii, 1933.] [Continued. woman's vote will, of necessity, standing on the part of the National interest themselves in matters con Council of Women in India, their second cerning the welfare of women. It Memorandum, :which has now been num must ill! horne in mind that the bered 56A, has not been eent to the majority of social reformers are Committee. Am I right? Memorandum residents of urban areas. No. 56& :which goes under the signature of (viii) There will, if our proposal is the Women's Indian Association and the accepted, he an increased enfranchise All-India Women's Conference, does not ment on right lines of the humble include the National Council of Women masses who stsnd in urgent need of in India. May I hand that in P ameliorative reform and constitute C157. Thank you?-It is as follows:- the majority of India's population. Our recommendation (3 (a) and (b), page 4 of our Memorandum} for a clear statement that women shall be equally JIIBliORANDuit 56A. ON THE STATUS OF eligible with men for the Upper House b"l>LL'< WollEN IN TBB PnoPosED NEw needa no amplification. We strongly urge CoNSTITlJTION OP INDIA. that prO!Perty qualifications for this After a careful consideration of the Chamber should he supplemented by proposals embodied in the White Paper educational ones as, under .the former, the with regard to the Status and enfran number of eligible :women will obviously chisement of Women in the proposed new be negligible. Constitution of India we, the represen tatives of tlhe National Council of ELECTORATES. Women in India, find that they fall short of the demands made in our Original We have repeatedly urged that we do Memorandum of Angust 1931, which was not desire the communal .,;,.. to enter presented to the 2nd Round Table into our united ranks. We, therefore, Conference. disapprove entirely and shall continue to 1. We still adhere to the demanda made resist to the uttermost the White Paper therein but as they have been turned proposal (para. 4, page 75, Appendix II.} down on the ground of their supposed by which women will be elected to the impracticability at the present time, we l!'ederal Assembly by an indirect system. feel obliged to make the following new We totally refuse to be made party prO!Posals. pawns /or the purposes of weightage for the convenience of any community--a &tate of affaira which will surely follow if FUNDAliENTAL RIGHTS. thi& proposal i& accepted. On the 2. ·We urge that the r.ecognition of the contra,., 10e deaire direct electioo on an principle of equality between 1ihe sexes entirely non-communal basi&. By merit should find a definite place in the declara and merit alone do we wi&h to find-and tion of the " Fundamental Rights" of we are confident we shall fin&-our Citizenship in the Constitution, Act. rightful place in the Councils and Federal 3. We desire to point out that the Legi&latures of our country. word sex has been omitted from page 29, It naturally follows that we are opposed para. 75 of the Introduction to the pro to reservation of seat& for ourselves and posals for Indian Constitutional Reform, are whole-heartedly in favour of joint as embodied in the ·White Paper. electorate-by which means alone we are 4. We earnestly recommend that both convinced, can India ri&e to her full · men and women should be equally eligible atature. for membership of the Upper House. Cl56. Do you desire at this stage to This &hould he clearly mentioned as the make a statement or to say anyLhing in practice as it exists to-day does not allow women to stand for the Upper amplification of those MemorandaP-Yes. Chamber. May I crave the indulgence of the Com mtttee for a few remarks only, not to 6 ..we recommend that prO!Perty quali fica.ttons shou,ld b~ supplemented by edu make a statement, but just to elucidate cattonal qnahficattons for membership of a few more points . in connection with the Upper House. what we have said. If we consider it necessary to make a further statement 6. In the matter of Res~rvation of seats we. should like to do so before the fuli for women both in the Provincial nnd Jotnt Select: Committee, if we may. First F~d~ral Legislatures we adhere to our af I thmk, o.wing to some misunder- ortgtnal demand and are strongly opposed all~ to any such reservation. OF' THE JOINT COMMITTEE _ ON l.!;DIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 37 29° Julii, 1933.] [Continued. 7. We strongly object to the election NATIOl 29° Ju!ii, 1933.] RuKUMARI AllRIT KAUB and Mrs.. IIAMin· ALI. [Continued: to ·u public employment, office, power or separate electorates, and also against the honour and in the exercise of any trade reservation of seats which must, in the or calling ". We think that this is very very nature of the !Proposals embodied essential, from the point <>f view of the in the White Paper ·be on a communal women. I should like to explain the bases. The Secretary of State in r"'PlY position of the three organisations which io a question by Miss Pickford on the · we have the honour to represent. We 21st July, I think I am right in saying, . bi.ve throughout stood for adult franchise definitely said, regarding reserved seate or any system based thereon, and we gave for women: "The communal question, evidence to this effect before the Indian of course, as she knows, does enter into Franchise Committee. ·We sugge&ted the the question of these women's seats very grouping system, and we say that we still definitely." We wonder whether the full adhere to our opinion that because adult implication of this answer has been franchise is the goal which has been realised by the Members of the Com universally recognised as the ultimate mittee as it is realised by u&. May I desideratum, we are not convinced that give just one example? In practice, it it is possible to bring women in on any will mean that every woman will have basis of equality with men without adult to enter the Councils or the .Assembly franchise or any system based thereon; on ·a communal ticket. It follows that nnd we are not convinced after all the she will have necessarily to be loyal to objections that have been raised that it that community, and in the event of any is either administratively impracticable controversy arising as regards any or fin~ncially impossible; but because it remedial legislation proposed for any par has been turned down, I suppose we dare ticular community, the women of the not ask for a re·constderation of these other communities in the Councils or in views; therefore, ewe have put forward the Legislatures, as the case may be, alternative proposals in our Memorandum will be morally debarred from giving which is now under consideration. We their full support, or otherwise, in have paid attention to, I might say, five matters tftlat are going to concern, and points in framing our proposals. First are of vital importance to, the entire of all, in the very limited franchise that womanhood of India. I think that this India is to have under the new Con is an extremely important point for the stitution, we _want to bring as many Committee to consider. Of course, I women as posstble on the electoral rolls, need hardly add that we shall not on bnt though we concentrate and though this basis have the opportunity of re we do lay an enormous importance on turning t;he women of our choice to either the numbers enfranchised, we also lay the Councils or the Assembly. We equal importance on the quality of the women are, therefore, determined not to vote because we want the Women's Vote let this spirit of separation whidb is so to be one that is going to carry real highly detrimental to our national inter weight, and we want the Committee, p'tease, to have an impartial mind when eN and to our personal interests, to enter into our ranks. When the Secre they are considering our objections to the enfranchisement of women on the wives tary of State implies-! am afraid I have and widows qualification, and our strong not got the exact words-but certainly advocacy of adult franchise in urban the implication was that the communal areas. The third point that we have award was forced UIPOn His Maje•ty's kept in mind is that we have tried to Government by all the communities· in make as few differential qualifications India, we would hove him remember between men and women in our pro and the Committee remember that 47 posals, as ;possible. Fourthly, adminis per cent. of the population of India. were trative difficulties which, alas, have never a party to it, and will never accept always put forward where any progressive it. We feel extremely str<>ngly on thi• legislation, as far as women are con point. Surely, it is not fair, and it is cerned have also been kept in view by against all canons of justice-(! am sorry us, and I think that our propos>1ls do the Lord Chancellor is not ltere)-to push simplify administrative difficulties, and us into a R()om against our .will, and also will relieve the financial burden, if tell us that the door is locked · we shall they are accepted. Then, last but not not take it as being locked. ' Now, as least, the Committee must be fully aware far as the ·Proposals contained in tho of the united stand that the women of White Pa,per ·are concerned I woui 29° j ulii, ~933.] R..uxm.I:ARI AlllRIT KAliB and Mrs. H.uo:m Au. [Continued, main, witlr our unqualified disapproval. representing the women· of India, have There is no uniformity in these iJ>ro ever come ·before a Committee of the posals; they vary from Province to Pro British Parliament. · We understand vince, as, for example, in the- case of the and realise fully the responsibility that reservation of seats, certain Province9 has been laid on our shoulders, and :we have been omitted altogether though we hope that by the unty that we are are against the xeservation,' ns I have going to prove to you, and by our said; as also in the differential educa• breadth of vision and the potency of our tiona! qualification~, they also vary from arguments, we shall conquer those of yo.u Provmce to Provmce. The wives and · :who do not believe· in the argumenta widows of those holding tJhe educational that we are putting forward and ..,.n. qualification might also raise and, I quish our opponents. Now may I tell think, very legitimately, a hue and cry you what is the nature of the Associa. a• to why they have been ignored and tiona :which we have the honour to repre preference given to the wives and sent. There are three Associations who widows of t•hose who hold tJhe property have joined together. We ·are elected qualification. The Upper House holds no by a J oin.t Committee of these three opening-at least it is not definitelv Associations, furst of all, the All-lndi& stated whether it holds any opening-f.;r Women's Conference, founded in 1925, women at all, to say nothing of the The 10rganisation has donetitueneies in monstrous suggestion tJhat there should every Province in India, as well as in • be indirect election for us to the main 12 Indian States. The total number of House of the Federal Assembly, where constituencies with their sub-oonstitu educational and economic reforms are enciee is at present 18.. The Women's going to come in, and that is where we Indian Association was founded in 1917. women do want to Ita ve strength. As far This Association has its Headquarters in as numbers are concerned, you cannot l\-Iadras, with 24 Centres and 72 branches blame us for being exceedingly depressed distributed throughout India. The wlben you realise that various Committees National Ommcil )Of oWomen In India and Conferences which have dealt with was fuunded in 1925. This Organisation India, instead of increasing the number has 6 main Centres in different Pro of women that should be enfranchised, vinces including BuJ'JD&, and 6 bJ."anches have decreased the number. We seem to and: 77 affiliated Societies.. If you want be going backwards. The · Simon Com me to read out the names of all the mission actually recommended tJhe ratio constituencies, I shall do so. of men voters to women, in the pro C161. I 'hardly think it necessary? portion of 1 to 2. The Indian Franchise Then I shall read out tJhe names of the Committee brought it down to 1 to 4!, few oonstituenciee which have a bearing and the White Paper has further de on the subject on which I em going to creased it now to 1 in 7, and I would ,speak. We, the representatives of the please have you to remember that thi• Indian Associations ·have got thia 1 in 7 is on paper only, and with all the Memorandum and we bear that there difficulties placed in the way of that are other Memoranda sent from India vote, which we object to, wives and which do not entirely agree with our widows, is going to work out in practice views, but we still are of opinion that at 1 in 15, nnd probably in Provincinl the Memoranda which have been sent to Councils at 1 in 20 or even less for th~ the Oommittee through us really repre Federal Council. It seems almost ns if sent the opinion of the W!omen a!l over they are ostensibly given with one hand India. in spite of a few otlher secttons of and taken n~ay with the other. women who ha.ve brought in other Mem· ora.nda. We hear that a Memorandum Mrs. Hamid Ali. has been sent from Madras and, per· 0160. May I say a few words? I fully haps Bihar and Bengal. 1 woald draw y'ouor' attention to this fa~t, th!'t in endorse what the Rnjkumari has said Madras there nre 52 constttuenctes of · nnd all particulars. I should •like to the Women's Indian A890Ciati?u elone tell you something about the Women's which have entirely accepted thta Memo Associations which we :women have the nudum. In Bengal there are 6 branches honour to represent. I wonder if it is of the All··India Women'." Confere~ce realised by· Members of the Committee alone apart from the affihated Assocta that it is for the very first time in the tions 'of the National Oouncil of Women hilltory of India that women elected ·••· in India, and they have all agreed to our credited representatives of the women, 40 MINUTES 0~ EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORB SUB-cOMMITTEE U 29° J ulii, 1933.] lt.wroJ.I:Aru: AmuT K.Aun and Mrs. liA.J,qD ALI. [Continued. Memorandum, so 1Jhat we still continue or more. Only on that condition can t.o think, and I hope that I have !Proved they get a municipality. I will not ask to you that our Memorandum is really you to accept my definitien of the urban accepted by the women in the length a!'d area, but the definition of the Indian breadth of India, because o1llr Asoocta Franchise Committee. " For the pur ti.lons and our constituencies are spread pose of these comparisons, we have taken over the whole face of India. as the urban populal!ion the area.s classed as urban during the census; that Begum Shah. Nawaz. is, all municipalities, cantonments, and Cl62. Mav I ask a question? This· other towns with over 5,000 inhabitants M.emoranduin ~presents the opinion of .which, though they have not attained your Organisatilons, as suoh, and that self-government, still poseess urban the dissent 29° Ju!ii, 1933.] R.AJxuMARI AMRIT KAUR and Mrs. HAMID ALI. [Continued. smailer. It can be adjusted according considered and the urban vote and Urban to the needs of the moment. We are not Suffrage wili be carried out. May I also at all in favour of giving the urban just point out to you that there are women a larger vote than necessary, but only ao large cities all owr India, acoord ·we do think tha~ at the present time, ing to the Minute of Dissent by the especially for the. first two or three elec three gentlemen, S. B. Tambe, C. Y. tions., the urba.n woman is the woman ~ho Chintamani, and R. IR. Bakhale, which is more educated than the rural woman, would really come in if the Franchise and the urban. woman will be able to :was only granted to them; then that educate the rural woman in a far better would be purely urban vote; but if this degree, and lead her to vote i~ the r!ght definition of the urban area is taken and way as we think, for our eoClal legisla acted npon, then the vote for the rural tion' than if you give the rural woman a women will be equal-or you <:an give vote only and no urban women get it. more, if you will, to the urban women. For inst~nce; if you give the vo~e to Now we come to the question of the Com the wives and widows, the.n prac~ICally munal Award. This is another matter all the voting will be distnbuted m the on· which the Women's Associations feel .l'Ural area, and .it will be so ~istributed very deeply. We are feeling aggrieved (50,000 l 1!hink in each provmce) th?t and hurt that no account is taken of half j,t will be very difficult for any orgarus the population of India when such a far- • ation to reach those votes individually. ·reaching award is made. If :we accept We are also afraid that those votes this award what :will be the result? Raj will not be a hefp to us, but they will kumari will go into the Council through 'strengthen the hands of those members the Indian Christian door, Begum Shah of the Assembly and Councils. :who have N a wa"' and I shall go into the Legisla already shown ·their Conservatism by not tive Assemblies through the Muslim door. wanting. to have the Sardar Act and The Muslims' and the Hindius' and the <>ther legislation.. So we do want that Christians' parties will not allow each 1Jhe literate woman and the more educated other to vote or to interfere in any legis woman should be able to influence and to lation which bears either on the Sherriat get at the rnral women's vo~. !f y~u or Shastras, or, if it is a Christian ques accept our proposition I think It Will tion, of course, the Bible. Supposing we · act in fairness to everyone all round. It want to do away with polygamy in India, 'will also be a step towards Adult Fran we three women would not be able to join chise which is our ultimat~ goal. _We together, or supposing the matter of really cannot understand why the wives divorce comes up, or of inheritance, then and widows' votes have ·been .suggested :we know very well the practice of the in the White Paper, "and the wtdows and Assembly. They make a pact between wives of propertied men only. As the each other and say, This question is 'Rajkumari said :why not of educ~ted men P entireiy for Muslims or Hindus, hands I say why did not you suggest It of, say, off, so the Government must refrain from ·the Civil Service, then you could have voting. :They work it so that it will be put another steel band .round your s~el desirable that the Government members frame; or why not the w1ves of the pollee will refrain from voting because this is men • then we could have had the either a !Muslim, or Hindu, or Christian, polic'emen's wives being put into the ·.or some other question. We do not want Reserved Department as well. There are it to work in that way. We think it is eo many other things that ~ne could have a loathsome way to work in small ccm done but this opportumty has been .partments and to cut our country into negl~cted, and only the :w>~es ~f proper bits. It will not lead to nationhood, nor tied men have got this d•stmct1on of get do we think it conforms to our idea of ting a vote which they do not get as patriotism to go into small compartments human beings, hut because 1ihey are. the like this ao we must make it clear to property of some man. We ~re entuely you that whatever happens even if this against it. iWe feel it very ·b•tt~rl~, and Award is continued, women like me-and we feel that it is against the d1gmty of I speak for a very large numbar of .women womanhood and humanity to suggest a who are working in our associations vote like that. It .begins from the very will entirely !keep out of all pt litioal first on a wrong basis, ~nd if w~ once accept it we shall find 1t very dLffidlllt matters, and we shall see to it that we to come back to our principles again, so try to get this Communal Award che.nged we do hope that our suggestions will be as quickly as pcssible. 42 · MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SUB-COMMITTEE C. 29° Julii, 1933.] R.AnroxAm: A:muT KAUB and Mrs. HlliiD ALI. . [Continued. Chairman.] There are just one or two woman !Present. at that meeting has a. questions I should like to ask you, vote. When it. comes to framing any Rajkumari Amrit Kaur. I should like resolutions (and for the last three years you to tell us a little about the political we might say that the question of fran organizations which you represent. chise has been very much to the forefront Which of these two organizations do you amongst om; constituencies) every womim regard as the more democratic? present at those meetin'gs has a vote, and (Rajkumari Amrit Kaur.) The All-India I may say that those meetings are Women's Conference. attended by hundreds of /Women, illiterate Cl64. That is the more democratic as well as literate, and they all vote, organization?-! think so, and perhaps either in favour of or against. and they I may be allowed to give you, as brieily are at fnll liberty to speak. as possible, an explanation of the Con Cl71. Would you· tell ns whether the stitution. organization is doing any direct political Cl65. Might I put my questions to you education in the way of house-to-house and then you will aee whether we are visiting and attempting to inierest. both moving in the same direction P women not yet interested in politics in Yes. such matters P Is any work of that kind Cl66. I should like to know a little being done P-Our Conference is pledged a bout the organization. Let us take that not to take part. in Party politics, bnt one ?-May I take the organization of we certainly do go round to women and the All-India Women's Conference? as far as possible onr Standing Committee Cl67. May I put it in tho furm of a members go into the villages and also get series of questions to you bee a use I know into touch with the villagers to put such preci'i."!y that :which I desire to discover, matters as we think matter very definitely if I canP-Yes. to the women in the new Constitution for Cl68. Can you give us any indication India before them, and I may say we now as to whether those organiY.ations have an extremely lively interest taken embrace all classes of the population? in all matters pertaining to women. Naturally, in these matters interest tends to show itself first in the better educated Begum Shah Nawaz. and more well-to-do, but I am anxious to discover how the development of these Cl72. May I put one supplementary organizations is proceedingP-Very de question P Could you tell us something finitely, yes. It embraces every woman about the representative character of the in India, from whatever claBS or what meeting that. was held in Bombay at. the ever creed, or whatever position in 1ife end of March which framed this 1\lemo she comes from. May I brieily tell you randum?-Yes. At the end of March, the Constitution of the All-India Women's when we were definitely told that adult Conference P franchise or any syetem based thereon was impossible, these three orgauizaLioua Cl69. I am not really so much con cerned with the constitution; I am pre elected ten women from amongst them pared to take from you at once that that selve.-ten each-to meet in Bombay, and is democraticP-Yes. these organizations gave these ten dele · Cl70. What I am very anxious to dis gates fnll powers to frame o. Memoran cover, if I can, is as to how far the actual" dum and alternative propoaals, o.nd if we membership is democratic?-We have not had wanted-if these ten delegates from p;ot an actual membershio in the nature each of these Conferences had wanted of members paying fee; for the very to !PUblish a 1\lemorandum ourselves, we reason ·that we wanted to embrace all should have had the entire support of our even the very, very poor-and you know Associations; but feeling as we do that that for them it is almost impossible to we wanted not only to frame it ourselves pay fees, however small an amount we (even although we had plenary powers) fix those fees at; but, for instance when but that we should circulate it, we circu it comes ta the election of our Deiegntes lated it amongst all our constituencies to the Annual Session those Delegates and we have got the unqualified approval from every constituency 84"e elected. We of all the branches from all over -;he hold large annual meetings in our con country of all these three organizations, stituencies and sub-constituencies. They so that the Memorandum does really are open to women from every part of speak not only for those who actually that .particular constituency and when the were responsible for the framing of it, election of Delegates takes place every but for the constituencies aa a whole. OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 43 29° Julii, 1933.] RwroMA]ti A:wtiT lUUB and Mrs. ILnnn Ar.r. [Continued. Cl73. Is any work !being done in the Begum ShaTi Nau;az. villages remote >from urban centres, by Cl76. Have not you had many of these way of attempting to interest women in ladies presiding at some of your pro political matters and political develop vincial conferences belonging t-o the mentP-(Mrs. Hamid Ali.) May I answer orthodox sectionP-May I say that we this question P have no opposition from our :wom~n-no~ 0174. If you please?-Tbere are three Associations, you will remember: The Sir Hari Sinol• Gour. All-India Women's Conference is pledged Cl77. Orthodox men do not oppose? not to take up political work; but the So far as the women's work is conc::erned, object of the Women's Indian Association we have no opposition from the women, is " to secure· the abolition of child but we do~ have opposition in India from marriage and other 6ocial evils; to secure our men. for women the vote for municipal and CJ,aiTman. legislative councils on the same terms C178. D 29o Julii, 1933.] B.A.nrol definite membership there P-I think the Begum Shah Nawaz. National Council of Women in India has Cl9l. Like the franchise P-For in a membership · I am not certein about stance like the franchise; i>hat is termed the Women's 'Indian Association. Mrs. political. Anything may be · termed Hamid Ali can qualify that. (Mrs. Hamid political; even remedial_!egislation may Ali.\ We co-operate with the other be termed political, but we are not Societies. There is no fee. (Rajkumari barred from taking part in that. It is Amrit Kaur.) I think there is a fee only party politics because twe embrace for actual members in the large towns, women, to :whatever party they may but ~here is no bar to women attending belong politically. those meetings. Cl87. You cannot tell me the member Miss Mary Pickford. ship of the National Council of Women Cl92. Is it not the case that that the numbersP-1 am afraid I have not definition of political work has been got that. differently interpreted in different Cl88. Perhaps you could look that up branches, and that some of the branches and put it on the Note afterwards P fe:'t that the question of ·franchise was (Mrs. Hamid Ali.) The National Council bound to come up against party po)itical of Women in India have not a very large questionsP-I think I must make that membership because they usually work position quite clear. It was not any con in large towns. I have a paper here: stituency or sulH:onstitnency; what I There is the Bengal Presidency Council mean is it was no body of any standing of Women which has 32 affiliated within the conference that did object to societies and' one branch at Dacca and this. One or two isolated members did 250 individual members. The Bihar and put forward the plea that perhaps we Orissa Council of women has 3 branches, should not take up the question of S affiliated societies and 380 individual franchise because it was a political .l>bing. members. The Bombay Presidency Last year at o~r annual session, this Women's Council has 2 branches, 27 question was definitely thrashed out in aflilinted societies and 500 individual open conference, and it :was the opinion members: May I point out that all the of everybody present that franchise came women's societies and asaociations work well within the realm of the twork of the ing in a large to.wn, say, for instance, in All-India Women's Conference. So far as Ca:cutta or Bombay, have one woman the Women's Indian Association is con member to represent them, so that i>bese cerneq, they have, from the very begin affiliated societies as a whole come on ning, taken up franchise. 'l'bere is no their association. It is impossible really bar to their taking it up, and I do not to calculate ho.w many members each l>hink the National Council of Women in Council has, because they have affiliated India either have had any qu~stion as to all the clubs, and working societies, and :whether they had a right to take it up women's associations, to :work, in that or not. special unit. Say, for instance, in Cl93. With regard to the que&tion of Bombay, they might have SO afliliated franchise, I see yon say in your supple sdcieties and all the members of those 50 mentary stal>ement that if women ·• are affiliated societies are the membeno of to possese the means of furthering 14le the National Council of Women, cause of economic, edudational, social Cl89. The main object of the three and medical reform " all of which are associations was, first of aJ:·, educatiOnal questions with wbich the Association are work, and to that was added general most intimately concerned ?-Quite. social work affecting principally women Cl94. "We consider it essential that and children and young persons P as large a number of women as possible (Rajkumari Amrit Kau~.) That is so. should be brought immediately on to Cl90. And two out of these three the electoral roll so that our voice may organisations in their foundation are be a del>ermining factor." Therefore. precluded from taking part in political you stress the very great importance of work ?-Not political. We are pledged having a frandhise sufficiently large to not to take part in party ~politico, but bring pressure to bear not only upon thP. where it comes to political questions that candidates who are standing for election, affect the welfare of women and children, but also on vbe provincial councils of the IWe are at full liberty to take part. legislative assembly ?-Certainly. • OF TuB JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 45 29° j ulii, 1933.] RAnrnYARI A:muT lUUR and Mrs: H.um> ALI. [Continued. C195. You favour, I think, the qualifi universal marriage, ~but w;hene$.r we cation which was recommended by the have held meetings, and these meetings Indian Franchise Committee for Women, have ,been very largely attended, and tihat is, the literacy qualification inter we have put to the women " Do you want preted as meaning the ability to read and the vote in your own right as women or writeP-Yes. would you be willing to accept it simply C196. Even though that was suggested because you are married to a. man who as a differential qualification, yon would lhad the vote," the answer invariably SUJpport that?-We have in our memor has been "Why, because we are married, andum, of course, recommended literacy should not we have it in our own right; for men and women, because we have not it is our birthright." wanted to differentiate between men and C202. W onld it be fair to say, that women as far as possible. But if tihe the property, though held in the name administrative ,difficulty of numbers is of the man benefits the family as a whole, going to be in the way of this qualifica and that that is a strong argument for tion, we would be willing to accept the that property enfranchising both hus literacy qualification for women only, and band and wife P-In a ®untry like India have it as a differential qua.Jification. where women suffer under tremendous · We are very sorry about it, but there disabilities, where ownership of any pro seems to be no way out of having differ• perty is concerned, I should certainly entia! qualification once we go away from say that would not apply to the women what I shall , call the basic principle of of India. We are struggling to get our adult suffrage. , recognition of owning property in our 0197. Would it be fair to say that in own right. essence there. is , not really so great a C203. Another objection you take to difference because it is easier for boys to . this is that it would , " double the vote attend a public school and get tihe of the landlords and capitalists-a section necessary educational qualifications, of the most ccnservative and orthodox whereas many girls and women, equally members of society-who are, generally well-educated, have not got these certifi speaking, invariably opposed to all pro cates because they have been educated gressi ve reforms ". You know, of course, tprivately?-Without P,oubt it would be that the suggestion is to enfranchise the impossible for us women to produce :wives o.nd widows of those who are quali examination certificates. fied to vote for the provincial ccuncil. Cl98. And,, tiherefore,, it is more Do you think the experience of the lo.st differential in outward appearance than 10 years would show that all those voters in essence?-Yes. We must admit that have been Ctpposed to progresaive reforms P because we are willing to accept it. -Of ccurse, I can only speak generally, 0199. With regard t<> the other sug that it is, as a rule, the opposition from gestion of the Indian Franchise Com these property holders that we have to mittee, and also of the Simon Com come against where any reforms nre mission, of enfranchising wives, and concerned. widows, who as wives have been qualified. C204. Are you distinguishing between of men wiho bold a certain property property holders and others? I a~ qualification, I understand that your speaking of thoee, all of whom are quail Association takes somewhat strong ob lied to-day to speak for provincial coun jection to· that suggestion P-That is so. cils P-Do you mean tbe ones who have CllOO. I notice in your memorandum tbe lower property qualifications? ~o you say " the women of India should not you include iihe lower prope~y q~ahfi be enfranchised ind9JPendently of any cations also-all property quahficat10ns P extraneous factor "-tlhat is a double C205. I am including those who *'?-d~y negative, as a. matter of f,act--".the are qualified to V?~ for P':"Vl~Clal ccuncils under the ex1stmg Constitution? women of India should be enfran<'hlsed -No; I cannot say tbat all have been independently of any extraneous factor."? opposed to reforms as far as we are con- _ - -Yes; it is a. misprint. Our meamng cerned. I C'annot say tbat. is clear. C206. I think you said in answer to C201. Yes; it is only beoause I have a previous question that even in tbe most not read the whole paragraph. Do you orthodox, and, shall we say, ultra con think that marriage would genera:lly bo servative section, al~hough_ you had considered in India as an extraneous opposition to reforms In wh1ch you are factorP-1 can only tput it to you thi• interested from tbe men, you had never way. India is, of ccurse, a land of 46 MINUTES OF BVIDlL.'ICE TAKEN BBFORB SUB-COlllllliTTBE C - -- - 29° Julii, 1933.] ltanruJoWU AmuT KAUB and Mrs. HAMID ALI. [Continued.· hsd any oppooition from the women and, for a moment, but we accept the literacy in fact, many of the women of this sec qualification because, as I say, it does tion of society aro members of your or not make any conditions where the vote ganisationsP-Yoes. But I should like to is concerned for that woman, hut the qualify the position there. There is no other qualification distinctly denies to doubt about it that if the women of those women their rightful position in the Con property holders :who are conservative and stitution. That is my roint. Mter all, .are oppooed to reforms are given the we have to take risks :where women are vote simply because they are "lllarried to concerned, and a great many of them these people, or are the widows of these will be inftuenced, as I dare say a grea~ people, there will be pressure brought to many in England are to-day influenced, bear on them-there is no doubt about it by their husbands. I am not going to _-and though they are members of our say that that will not obtain, but we arganisations, and though they inwardly want to eliminate all pressure >.hat may sympathise with us, it will be very be brought to bear on them as far as difficult, or I may say impossible, for :we possibly can. them to go against their husbands where . C212. Your alternative· suggestion is the vote is concerned. that of having ·adult franchise in urban C207. That argument would apply areas. · Of course, if you are going to whatever the franchise qualification might avoid a differential qualification, that • beP-Nol because we have to take the ·would necessitate enfranchising l,otli men psychological factor into C!onsideration, and women in urban areasP-Yes~ _and when a woman gets a vote in her C213. You do realise, of com..e, that own right, it is much easier for her to that question was very carefuly considered ~xercise it without any pressure from out by the Franchise Committes and was re eide being brought to besr upon her. jected on a variety of grounds P-But may I suggest here that with the lower pro Ckainnan. perty qualification that is now going to C208. Is the suggestion that the secrecy be applied to men and the suggestion of the Ballot would be of no avail in that labour ought to have adult •uffrage this regardP-1 do not think so, because in urban areas, men will practically have apart from anything else, if a husband sdult suffrage in urban areas and the were to say to his :wife " I do not want numbers are not going to be increased you to vote ", she does not go at all to an enormous extent, whereas, as far It is impDBBihle to get away from that. · as :we women are concerned, it is going to make a very great difference. MarqueBB of Lothinn. C214. Then it comes to the point that C209. How is that affected by the pro you are going to define the urban area. ~ess by which she gets on the roll P She I understood from Mrs. Hamid Ali that ls on the roll and has a vote in ller own you wished to define the urban area so as -~ight. ~ow is that affected P-8uppos to bring in a large amount of country ~ng she IS not allowed to go to the poll districts?-(Mrs. Hamid Ali.) May I say Ing-booth. that it was not my definition. It was the C210. That applies equally whether she definition of the Indian Franchise ABBo has a vote in her own right or bv virtue ciation. of marriageP-No; because, ae' I say, YOU must take into account the psycho Sir Hari Singl1 Gaur. lo_gical factor there. That does make a C215. It was a question of defining 29° J.Uii, 1933.] R.ul tain number of votes can be polled satis to ~he difficulties which are .being put in factorily for administrative reasons. If the>r way, very many less will come on to you get beyond that machinery you break the rolls. down. May I put it that was one of the C218. Would not you agree that the arguments for not extending the vote, essence of representative government is for not having adult franchise. It was that it should represent all sections of suggested by the Minority Report of the eoeietyP-Certainly it should and that Indian Franchise Committee that adult is why we still adhere to' the adult .franchise should b 29" Julii, 1933.] I!..uKtw.utx A.IDUT KAUB and Mrs. H.uw> ALI. [Continued. vote or a.n urban vote. It is going to of all the district& P-Of all the districts, be a. vote for the women of India and for and all the rural votes · we want to_ all that the women of India are working capture. to-day to get. C224. Yet you are opposed to a speciall ireeervation of seate for women P-(llai Sir Hari Singh. Gour. k""""ri Amrit KauT): ,Yes; if they are C220. Would not the women in the to be reserved, ""' we are :told 1ihey are to rural areas oppose your suggestion P-I do be, on tbe. communal basis, :we are. re not think they will. That is 'Why we finitely opposed 1io that•. have suggested the literacy qualification C225. On those groundsP-Yes, that is also, because we feel that will embrace a our objection throughout, because we fair number-we cannot' soy the mass. realise they could not be reserred to us unfortunately, because the figures of on any other .basis, and, :therefore, we illiteracy in education are so deplorable object very ellrongly. , • in India-but it will increase the number 0226 •. You object to the suggestion of and give us a certain number of women the election <>f the women members ·of in rural areas. As MI'B. Hamid Ali has the Federal Assembly by indireet · elec pointed out, even in the urban ccinstitu tion P-Yes, very strongly indeed. tl. do encies we shall get a certain numbeY of not understand why this differential women on the roll. Our wom.. n who live qualification hu been made between men in the urban areas have r"lations in the and :women. We are :told in one breath neighbouring villages, 'lnd they will have that we do so want to make a differ the vote. We are not going to have a ential qualification between men and great opposition from the women in the W'omen, and yet in t!his very important rural areas. Assembly,. where we want a strong vote 1 and a strong representation of women, we Miss Pulo/ord •. are given an indirect vote without any C221. Is not it true to say that there chanee of getting the right type of women are fewer schools in . the rural areas and and men; there is the communal 1- opportunitie8 for adult services ouch difficulty...... , · as maternity, child welfare and so forth? C227. You realise that women will be Would it not, therefore, be of very great elected by the whole Province?-When importance that the women's vote should these Provinces are going to be hot-beds be brought to bear on candidates stand ' of communalism, I cannot see that the ing for rural areas P-(Mrs; Hamr,id Ali.) women who would be eleeted by these But the constituencies can be formed in Provincial Councils will be representa such a way that a large number of rural tive. areiUl can be taken into that constitueuoy. C228. Have you any alternative sug C222. Those would be only auch parts gestion P--Certainly. Why not · direct a8 adjoin a town or an urban distriet, election t!hrough joint electorates? but in the remoter country districts the 229. Direct election from whatP-As need is surely much greaterP-May 1 far as the reservation of seats is con point out to you that all the work that cerned, we are opposed to the reserva hiUl been done so far for education and tion of seats, so naturally we hava not for · medical relief amongst the rural got any rpropoeals for eleetion to re women has been done by the urban served seate, unless, I say, those reserved women's ABBociations-either individually seats were definitely on a non-communal or through the ABBooiations as a whole. basis. We might then IU!k our organisa That is just why we want our vote to tions to consider the reservation of seate, be effective, because really if we go rounfl but, as long as they are on a communal India and see the state in which the rural bll8i8, we will not lbave anything to do women live to-day, without any medical with them. aid, especially in matters of maternity or C230. I do not understand your sug maternal homes or maternal aid of any gestion about direet election?-Well. kind, then you would feel a8 intensely as tbere could be special constituencies, we feel that something must be done to could not there, or one multiple con remedy thi8 evil. The only way we can stituency for the election . of women get money from the Provincial Govern th'rough joint electorates to tho•e re ment or induence the Provincial Go~ern served seats, if they are to be reserved? ment is to make our votea count. That C231. Direct election from special con is just the thing we are fighting for. stituencies P-Yes. C223. Therefore, you want to bring C232. But tJhe women would be rapre presaure on the t'andidateo and member• . sentative of that constituency and not OF THE JO,INT QOMMITTEB ON .INDIAN. QONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 49 29° Julii, 1933.} RUKUJ of the Province?-Well, it is a choice of you have allowed enough for the overlap evils. It depends on how·. many •~ate .as you call it. . , . , . ; you have. We do not think we should have enough representation, but still we Mr. Butle7'. would have to compromise .on that and 0237. 1 to· 4.8 is the gross figure on take it from one of the capital cities of paper and. 1 in 7 is the net figure on the \Province, .. or in any way that the paper. That is just allowing for the Committee thought the most .-epresen overlap of different qualifications with tive women· could go,· but . certainly it out taking education into consideration. should be on a system of join~ elector. Marquess of Lothian.; a tea. .,• I ' Mr. Davidson.. , , .C238. May I ask Mr. Butler :what he · 0233. In your memol'andom under the means exactly by overlap ·in the matter heading of " Franchise and Representa of qualification ?-{Mr. Butle,..) There are tion," you say·:. "We· are emphatic· that, .certain qualifications, property, wifehood the true spirit ·of reform, without which and education. It is very likely that '110 national progress is tp<>SSi·ble, · must somebody who is qualified edocationslly in no 'wise be sacrificed at the altar of will already be qualified :with other quali- administrative 1 ·inoonvenie:D.ces. "· , You fications. . will admit, I euppose, that a bre&kdown : MarqueS& of Lothian. · in the· initial election. &fter the constitu 0239. You are not thinking of. the tion was in operation would have a very people who might be pot on and those serious effect upon iJhe future constitu who might not be put on ?-{Mr. Butler.) tion&! progress of India-.-! mean if the No, I am thinking of the overlap of quali- machinery broke down at the firilt elec fications. · tion ?-My answer to ·that is ·that every · Marquess of Lothian. precaution· muSt be taken,· and even 0240. Then' it would be 1 in 7-it is m;ore money spent, at the beginning, not possible to have 1 to 4.8?-(Mr. ,beda,.,, after all, the dif!roui1Iies ere Butler.) No, it is almost impossible to going to be for .the first electoral roll. calculate, but we were to count the over Every precaution should ·be taken that lap in 'the gross figure of 1 to 4.8. the admini.st..ative machinery does not 0241. May I say, under the educa break down; Wh11t we feel, and have tional calculations recommended by the always felt, is that the administrative White Paper, you are not going to get inclonveniences lhave .been magnified to a as large a number of women as I think very great extent, and that they will not you thought, because we are not able to really loom so large as they are supposed produce those educational qualifications. to loom. That is going to be a very eerious draw Mr. Butler. back. ·As I say, the majority of our C234. There are one 'of two pointe that women would be eliminated from voting, you h11ve raised that I should like to so J do not agree to that 1 in 7. refer to. You first refer to. the actual 0242. Have yon considered eome of the paper figure in the White P8JPer of the administrative difficulties which Sir relation between men and women Malcolm Hailey described in his evidence voters ?-Yes. in taking the electoral RoUP-Yes, I have. 0235.' Are yo~ aware that the actual 0243. Would you think it would be gross figure is 1 to 4.8?-I say thst yester worth taking the risk of prejudicing the day in the evidence that was given by Women's catl6e by coming up against such the British Women's Organisations. . dillicultiea as he described ?-Might I 0286. And · that in the case of the suggest that these difficulties could be figure of 1 in '1 we al'8 aJJooving for a overcome. Speaking for my aw.a Pro considerable overlap P~I know, but from vince, if the women who- are in the the White Paper proposals, I would also Educational Department, for instance, say that the education test you are put who are District Inspectoresses of ting for the women, and for the women Schools, if the women who are running only, is going to eliminate very many the women's side of the C 29o Julii, 1933.] lt.uxvlwu Almrr KAliB and Mrs. H.um> Au. [Oontinued. .dillicnlties which Sir Malcolm Hailey cl.al&eS adnlt franchise, then it will has pot forward :would arise. 'fhe GoY.. practically be adult franchise; ; · ernment eonld l'iw~~oys appoint special , C249. H yon turn to page 100 of tAte women also to help them. I do not Franchise Committee Report, paragra1•h think that the women will have any difli ....250 where it refers to the establishment eulty whatever in going to the villa.ges of ' special In boor constJtuenetes,. . 1n . and eliciting the names for preparing making your calenlation, would yon n~t the register and electoral rolla. agree that these constituencies have not C2«. Have you any etatistios of the yet been delimit!!<~, and further that this number of women available, ;n your Report refers to the fact tAtat some of suggestion; to cover the whole of the the major provinces are all prepared to villages P-I could not give you an actual agree to' i>he' establil!ihment of one or number. I know that in my Province, more constitnenciea of this nature. ' I my own district of .Jalnnda, it comes in think yoq will .. agree that· that eannot to the neighbouring· di•trict, and this be uid to be tbe .equivalent of adult ladv wh.. is running the 0<>-operative franchise or· anything. near. itP-What aid~· of the Women's Societies, would does it mattar if a. few more men are he able to do that part of the work for enfranchia!!d, . because yon ·.have already you in those areas. . acknowledged that the Government. is C245. You are aware that we have bad prep&l'ed. with ' this , administrative to prescribe a certain qualification for machinery. to ·inerease ·the ·number of tha msn who were to do this work. Dq men from 9,000,000 :teo' a6,!JOO,OOO. ds ·it yoa think that there will be snflicient not soP . -.. t..'''J'· ,. •• women possessing snob qualifications to 'C250. I ..as only oonoern!!d to correct do it P-I see no diflicnlty; I trunk U.el"fl 'Wihat I thought was a misaa>pl'Eflension will he. l think that if &If appeal is abont adnlt suffrage fo., men, hecallSe l made to :Our Organisation and to tbe tilink it is a slight exaggeration p.,..,. young girls of. to-day who have just (Rajkv.11UJri Amrit Kaur.) Adnlt fraa• linished their university edqcation or chiae in qrban areas would DOt mean the their school !!ducation, and wbo, perhaps, same inereaee in the men's vote aa it are looking ont for jobs, they will be doeo in the women'a vote. There will not forthcoming. It is only, as J say, for the reallv be a very substantial increase in lirst electorl'l roll. t)lat . it ml'tters very the Dten•s vote, whereas, it doea make ati wuch, - . ._ ...... ' .... enol'llloua difference t<> the women' a vote. C:Wi. That wovld actvally he a Jesse~ " C251. I think that modification of the qualification than we J\re demanding for original ia true P-Yea. th'! men to do this work P~J do , not ' 0252. There ie only one :other point. think 1lhat wovl 29° Julii, 1933.] RAnrol . ' - I . 29° Julii, 1933.] R.AnrollARi AMRIT KAUB and Jl!rs. HAMID ALi. · ' [Continued. say that it would be a very sad thing bull we' are ·not getting lt, because we if our proposal for adult suffrage is turned are married to the men. " · ' . '. - ·, - . ' . ,. 1 down, and we object to the :wives•· and C275. The literacy test alone gives yon widows' vote, that same other means can .that right by itself, does it not, those not be found by the Committee in. cou who have got the vote merely because B<>nance with our principles and what we they. are literate?-You mean, that we have throughout stood for, if some other ought not to .object. We are not getting means cannot be found in .bringing that it everywhere simply because. we happen requisite number .of women <>n to the to. be married,· or widows of men who electoral roll. ·• hold the vote? • ·,, .:" . .. t · · ', Begum Shah J!i!a!D ~9° Julii,, 1933.] ~~ A:mur KAUB and Mrs. HAliiD ALI. [Continued. vote?-! can.onlJr say that it will-be very White_ Paper, as far as seats in•the difficult. Upper House are concerned. Am I right C279. Mrs. Ali said on the same point in concluding that?-(Sir , Hari Singh that women objected to being considered Gov.r.), _Yes. a sort of property of some man; You dis-' Mr, Cock•. agree in that matter from the Report of 0289. How many seats would you sug· the Lothian Committee when they said gest?-Are :we given any sea.ts 1\t all? they · considered · that- by marriage ·a C290. No, not at present P-(Mrs. Hamid twoman enters into• a partnership with Ali.) Fifty-fifty. her husband, which may well confer civic · 0291. You have not any proposals to rights, as well as domestic duties?-(Mrs. make about the number of seats :which Hamid Ali.) We have got domestic duties should be reserved for :women ?-(Raj• all right, but we have not got the civic kumari AmTit Kaur.) We should like as rights. · -When w& get them, I shall -be large a number as possible provided that able to. answer that. question. · ·- • . i;hey were for women as women, and on ' • . - ' .. . . I'-·. . ,. • no other basis whatever. .. ,B~gum Shah Nawaz •. .· .. -... C280. IMay I put a .supplementary ques _ '· Marquees of Lothian. tion. on this poinH Was it not a fact C292. Women elected by men and that until very recently -women in India women, and not by women only?-Yes. have never. been ·known by the names of their ,husbands or their fathers; that • Mr. Cock•. this is a vested custom' which has only C293. The representative of the Indian been very recently introdueed in Eastern Women'a Committee for Franchise who countries? They were ••always known by gave · evidence before this Committee what you would call your Christian names, suggested one or two fur the Upper in India?-(.Raikwmari AmTit Kaur.) House !'-We should be very di ..atisfied Certainly, .that is so, we never have had with only one or two. We should want surnames.. in Indit~o. ·. , . . , .. more.-:··· •· ,, Begum Shah N a1Daz. Mr. Cock•. C294. Would you be satisfied if, out C28l. With reg~rd to the indirect votes of the quotn given to the Major Pro in the Assembly, you object to that. vinces (that is about five Provinces, J What it amounts .to is that the twomen think, altogether), one seat is reserved P <>lected to the Assembly are elected by -Haw many seats :would that m~an alto. the Provincial Legish>tures?-Yes, and, gether? therefore, will not be representative of C295. That would be about five alto. the Province. · gether P-Yes; that would be the mini· C282. And that is the only reserved mum. seat which is elected in that way ?-The Mr. Cock•. only one, yes. · All are elected by direct 0296. Are you of opinion that the de. election, but we are definitely given in· velopment af political consciousness . in direct election. Indian women is one of the factors whtch C288. As a ·matter of practice, there. h most likely to break down in the future fore does this not mean that the women the communal and caste distinctions P who' are elected to the Federal Assembly Without doubt.. We women are very will be elected really by a large majority conscious nationally, and we have never of menP-Yes, ~t does. . · had the communal question in our ranks, C284. The membership of the Provmoes and we are going to fight and see that will be mainly men P-Yes, of course. we shall convert our men in the end to 0285. And they will probably be elected our way of thinking. . on communal grounds P-Of course. 0297. This method is . & ~evelopmg C286. Not on feminine grounds at all P method, is itP-Very ro.ptdl;,: !udeed. -No never on feminine ·grounds. 0298. Are you of the optnton that, C2S7. Therefore, you think this matter genero.lly speaking, the authors of the is obviously unjustP-Of course, naturally. White Paper and the Members of the C288. As to the Upper Chamber, how Round Table Conference, and. so •>n, are would you suggest that women . s~ould attaching rather too much tmporta~ce be elected thereP-I think we ortgmally to the views of the Orthodox Indtan asked that it should be the single trans CommunityP-Yes, I think they are; as ferable vote, when we gave evid~noe !"'" far as we women are concerned oer. fore the Franchise Committee. I u_nagme tainly. -that that is the proposal now 1n the 54 MINUTES 011' EVIDENCE TAXEN BEFORB BUB:OOMJIIrrTEE C 29" Jtdii, 1933.] R..Utrtm.uU .AJ.mrr KAUB and Mrs. H.umJ Ar.r • [ Oonti,...ed. • C299. Tou think if they had the. women Sir Hari- SmgA Gaur:. on their side they could, I do not say C.'I()S. When you ovant the addition of defy the Orthodox people, hut feel thd they need not attac)l such an extreme the worq " Bell ·~ . to the fundamental rights on page M of the White Pape~, I importance to their views P-Of course not. . presum11 that the .reaaon. you want the '!Vord " sex " to b& added is that yon. C300. You believe, therefore, that the have got already the recognition, of two development of the women's· movement facts, namely, disabilities incidental, to will make for the unity and strengtih. of caste and religion P-Quite eo. · · · India in the· future.?-! have no doubt C.'IOO.. But the. disabilities .du 29° Julii, 1933.] R..ulroJ,uru .Amlrr lUUB and Mrs. HAum ALI. [ C011tinued. Hailey in . the United Provinces. That officials for the reasons which they set trial electoral roll was prepared through out in that paragraph. I think it might the existing agency of men in owlhich the be dillicult to find women. officials of t!ervices of women were not· utilised. approximately the •ame statua as th 1!9• Julii, 1933.] R..uJrm,wu .AmuT KAUR &nd Mrs. HAHID Au,_ · ·· [Continued. . 0324. :Will you kindly deal with those · Dr. B. B. AmbedkaT. ' three objections?-.(Mrs. Hamid Ali.) C328. Let her answer, ' We want the May I · answer the question? I sug witneas's answerP-Will you reply, Mrs. gest the ·English· custom· should be fol .Ali? · (Mrs. Hamid Ali.) We 29° Ju!ii, 1933.] ll.AnroHAJU AHRrr KAu.a .and Mrs. HA>Im ALI. [Continued. Dr. B. R. Jl.mbedkar. Begum Shah Nawaz. 0334. Did you say there would be no C341. Is it not a fact, Rajkumari difficulty ab01it the Muhammadan !house that ·Musli~ wi_v'."', mothers and daugh: holds?-(Mrs. Hamid Ali.) The Mussul ters, are 1uber1ting property belonging man never !has an objection to taking his to theilr fathers and hnsbands in all the wife's names. As Sir Hari puts it, there Provinces, except ' in the Punjab, and is a certain feeling of delicacy, but I also in the North West Frontier Pro. have never known any feeling of diffi vince, andJ therefore, their names are culty among Muslims to take their wives' already on the regist>er ?-It is [perfectly names. lt is true the women -do not true. take their husband's name frequently, Dr. B. R. Ambedkar. but they do it occasionally. (Rajkumari 0342. I thought the point of the ques Amrit Kaw.) It is in Hindu households, tion raised by Sir Hari Singh Gour was where the husband may object to taking not whether there was some mental objec the !Wife's ·name. tion on the part of the Hindu hnsband or the Mahommedan husband to give Mr. M. R. JayakeT. utterance to the name of his wife. I 0335. Is it not &questionofceremonial? thought the point of the question was : -Yes. There is not going to be any real Which one of the two, or any one, would difficulty. . . object to the sort of enquiry that a regis 0336. There· are occasions when the tration officer :will have to make?-1 do husband takes the wife's name, and 1Jice not understand what sort of enquiry the 1JeTsa?-Yes, certainly there are. As I registration officer will have to make. say, the difficulty would arise in a very Dr. B. B. Jl.mbedkar.] ~It will be, small number of cases, and we must rid " Have you a wife; if you have a wife, ourselves of this psychology of fear which what is her name? " hinders pn-ogress. Sir Hari Si·nuh Gour.] And '' How many wives have you got?'' Marquess of Lothian •.. . Dr. B. R. Ambedkar.] Who would 0337. This is the most formidable objec object to the sort of enquiry that will tion which :was raised, tJhe illustration have to be made by the registration officer given by Sir Malcolm: Hailey, and this is the point of the question. · does not. apply only to wives. If it is a · Marquess of Lothian.] . " Is she over valid objection it will [prevent almost any 21 "? ' woman from getting on to the roll any Dr. B. R. Ambedkar.] That is the aort where ?-Exactly. We say that it is not of question. a valid objection and t>hat if the ·appoint-· OhaiTman. ment of women is going effectually to C343. The witness might cine to int>er solve that problem for us, if it did arise pose an answer now. Will you answer in o. few cases, we must, as I say, banish Dr. Ambedkar'a auggestion, if you have all psychology of fear and go ahead if any views?-Yes; I can only say that I we want to make any progress at all. do not think anybody will have any objection to a question like that. I can Mr. M. R. JayakeT. not understand the mentality that even C338. Does not it hlliPpen naw that proffers a question of this nature. It when in tho Courts of Law a :woman is seems to me :wholly incomprehensible. eXamined as a. witness she mentions· C344. Do you agree with that answer, " Bo-and-So, the wife of So-and-So "?-· Mrs. Hamid Ali? Do you agree th~t Certainly she does. She names evelry there will be no difficulty?-(Mrs. Hamid body. May I al•o say in the case when Ali.) I think it will ~epend on ~he ~ay the census is taken what exactly happensP and the tone, in whiCh a quest1on hke As far as I am concerned I know I writ>e this is put. Ordinarily a question like down my name, and I presum~ all the that asked in good faith and with ~o women in the villages have theu- names evil int>ention wouid not be taken am1ss written do.wn •. by any body at all. C339. Does it not come to this, aft>er Mr. M. B. Jayaker. all, that in the orthodox Hindu house. a . C345. Supposing the question was put woman in the presence of !her elders w1ll by the enquiring officer in these terms, not mention the name of her husband P--:-. Quite. · · · " The Government have decided to give C340. It does not go beyond .that?-It a vot>e to wives. Your wife will have a vote. I have oome to take the infol"lD&- does not go beyond that. ' 58 MINUTES 9P BVIDENOE ll'AXBN liBFOBE SUli·OOMMITTEE C 29° .Tulii, 1933.] :R..ulrmwu AliiBIT RAUB and Mm. lLuuD ALI. [Continued. tion. Are you married P What is the ment would be made tactfully 10 that the name of your wife? I am asking this 11uestion of resentment cannot arise. because the Government have decided 'hat a wife should have a vete.'! . Supposing :o,r.; B. R. Am&edkm-. . the enquiry was .prefa<~ed by those re - 0352. I have not exi.ctly followed what · marks, do you think there would. be any is stated in this. supplementary. state resentment among Hind~.~& and Mahom ment .No. 58 in regard to the · repre medansP-(Rajkt.mari .Amrit Kaur.) Not sentation of women in. the · Federat at all. (Mrs. Hamid Ali.) l think if men As99mblY.- It is said "We. have :re-· :went about making those enquiries ~here peatedly urged that we ao not desire is a likelibOGd of people resenting it, but the communal virus' to ·ente~;' into certainly not i{ a woman. goes and. asks our· united ranka.". • You· see that; these questions. , , the proposal of the White Paper 8o far as thQ representation .of women in the Dr. lf. R. Amhdku•. • ·· Lower l{ouse is concerned is not by com C346, I want to asft (Mrs. Hamid Ali1 munal electorates, but is by a generaT one . more question. You come from electorate by a. sing!& transferable vote? Bombay.. You know that there are cer -Yee. · · \ain distinct warda which are exclusively · C303. From that poitrt of view I should Musselman quarters. From your rx• have thought ill could· not be objected· perience do you realf.l' think it is possible to on the ground of its being a communal' for an election officer to. enter these wards ~eetonrteP-In· the· fi.rsfJ place• th.,. seata and make thes11 enquiries ?-As far as J'no the- Lower· l{onse · of the- Federal Bombay is concerned, yes. · I do not think Assembly for WOmen are definitely to- Iii!' anybody would take objection in Bombay, on 8 COmmll1la~ basis; We have the s because in Bombay we have' municipal l'ns so often and people are trained POtllt, in his evidence the· daY' before to this kind of thing. • y~rday or three days· ago. , In the 034,7. I have au opinion on the matter. Lower l{ouse of the Federal Assembly I should think myself that it would be the reserved seats> to whick this indirect far easier to make an enquiry of ·this sort system of . eleetio!L refel'lr a11e definitely in a rural area than in urban areas!' to be on a communal basis. . . . . , . ' That is my opinion, for 'What it is worth1" 1 -(Raikumari Amrit Ka...-.y I do not hold Mr. M'. R: J'ayakeT. '' ' · that opinion.. . · • - 0354.. Yow: obj_ection. is to ~ 'rese~ t • ' •.··. '·:. vatioDI of seat&. on. the. eommnnal basis.i.' Sir Han Bingh._GOIJII";. · · ·' •·• - 'Ye~; 1md further the indireet system ·~ 0348 .. Is it not a fact. that the real ele~10n. too those. sea.ts by legisla:lluxes objection that. is. voiced liy Dr. Ambedkar, wh1ch mast,, in. th& very nature of the. · C..~~&titmaon as 11roposed. to-day• ·be. on and. men of that kind; is to all idle en~ <:emmuna.l lines. . · quiry;. but if it is made known to th&' husband that the enquiry is directed itt · Mias Ma.r:v P~k/or.d.] May I just. in order to con£er upon his wife a; ]lrivilege, terp""" here P . In the Secretary. o£ State's reply when he said that the com a civic right. and a valualil~j civic right, then them would be no objection?'-=N 29° .TuZii, 1933.] ll..uxu:MAm Al 29° Jvlii, 1933.] RuKtrnARI A>miT KAun and Mrs. Hunn ALI. [Continued. of reservation, provided it were definitely we have throughout ·been opposed to laid down that the women's seats would reservation. We 29° Julii, 1933.] Il.AJKUHARI AHRIT KAUR and Mrs. HAMID .ALI. [ Oontinu•d. for instance the City of Bombay. Yoa century?-There can be no two qu.;.tions will have in that constituency, which about that.· you would desire to be specially designed 0391. This awakening is not oonfined for the election of a woman representa to urban areas nor even to the Reform tive in the Lower House, electorates of circles, but it is increasing generally? both men and women drawn from Throughout the length and breadth of different communities?-Yes. India. I may say, speaking from my own 0385. Do yon mean to suggest that humble experience, that I find the village those voters who ;would take part in the women almost more keen to come and election of a :woman representative would listen to me than the urban women in be less communally minded than the re my own constituency. presentatives of those larger communities <:392. I take it that you agree with in the Provincial Legislative Council who my view that it has been recently felt would be participating in the elec!iion of that whole departments of women's life, a. woman candidate on the indirect basis? including the :whole · marital state, the -Without doubt, because the communal law of inheritance, conjugal rights and question .exists far more among the type so on, require modification in the light which goes into the Legislature than it of modern events?-Without doubt. does among the masses of the reople. 0393. You and the leaders of this 0386. But I want to draw your atten movement feel that this reform is not tion to this fact, that these very elec likely to come unless women have a vote? torates will be electing the men •;vho will -Without doubt. be the voters for the indirect elention ?~ • C394. You also feel, I take it, that It may be so, but when it is a question the reform wilt be in the Legislatures of joint electorates and we are going to by legislative enactments?-Again with get the votes of joint electorates, the out doubt. communal question :wi11 not exist there C395. Have you considered the ques ~it cannot exist-to the same extent that tion, if the men members were not com it does in a Provincial Council wh;ch has pelled to eeek the women's votes, whether been elected by separate electorates and purely out of altruistic motives or where ·the· communal question is alive generous impulses, women can expect and must he very much alive. any large measure of reform in the Legis 0387. Do you think that in the general latures ?-I · think undoubtedly the electorate the men and women in India women's vote wtbere men are concerned do not act in a communal mann.gr ? wonld have a great bearing on Reform. Certainly not in the general mass. We would get very much more help from 0388. Have you ever seen a poll going those men that we have returned and on?-Yes. We have had a very r•cent ;who feel that they have -been returned example in the case of one of the women by women's votes-it is going to make members of our organisation who topped a great difference. · the poll in Bombay with the joint elec C396. Yon think it is going to make a torates, and practically no women at all great difference if the candidate has to but all men : t-he Depressed Classes and go and ·beg women for their votes?-Yes. everyone voting and she topped the poll. ()397. What ratio .would you like to That is in a municipal election. Then work up to-what is your ultimate .ideal there was not only her but another lady, of ratio with men's votes?-! do not and we have had examples in elections in follow you there. · Universities in Putna where women have C398. What proportion would you like been elected by men, and no difficulty on to work to--how many men, bow many the communal question bas arisen. women ?-According to our own proposals 0389. When the point is whether a we have said one to fou~that is the woman ;will be elected, no doubt the com minimum, one to four_ or one to five. munal feeling will be less in a direct 0399. That is your present de~aud ? election than it will be in an indirect That is the minimum, but, ultimately, election ?-Certainly. · Whenever the in certainly half and half. . . direct election is going to be by means C400. Would you mention any mmunum of the Council, it is going to be per period in which you would like to work meated by communalism. up ·to that ratio ?-Oertain!Y ! won!d Mr. M. R. Jayaker. like to envisage adult franch1se 1n Ind1a after a period of two elections. 0390. Am I right in saying that there 0401. In 10 years?-Ten or 15 years at has been a great awakening among Indian. women in the last quarter of a the most. ' 6:1 JONUTBS ·OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE -SOB-cQMil'IT'IER C .29° J'lllii, 1933.] .Il..u:!roJum ..ll!DIIT KAVB and Mrs. HAMID Au. [Continued. CtD2. Yea would liki! 29° Julii, 1933.] lt.ui 29° Julii, 1933.] R..ulro:HABI AliBIT KAliB and Mrs. HAHID ALI. [Continued. C434. On a joint ·electorate basisP Certainly · the · lfuslim wcimen, · in the Yes, a joint electorate and reserved with Punjab, for instance, I can 'say I have out any proportion in the ·Councils · on never- ;had any Mnslim women in the the communal ratio.- 1 . 1 F.r' • Punjab asking for- reserved Beats on com 0435. So fu . as your· voting. ia con munal linea. (Mrs. Hamid Ali.) I have cerned in your organisatio~d sever&! not yet· ~ome acro88 any ABBOciation instancea must have come up as a matter which has . sen~ any Resolution asking of voting-do you ·recall 6IlY · instance for any reserved seats on the communal where -the voting has gone on the lines basis.·~···--·-.-~ ·.·· of Hindu womPn against Mohammedan · 'C44l; Is it not· a fnct that they have womenP-Never, never. ··· · ~ ·· not asked for ·any 'reserved seats?~Yes. ' 1;. .. 0442. But if there are to be reserva Begum Shah ·JYawaz.; tions, do you think that all the Muslim 0436. My Lord Chairman, 1 ·do ·not women in all these Provinces would agree think I have many questiona to put to to their having them on a non-communal the witnesses after all the replies· that basis in -the absence of a settlement they have given to the many questiona betW&en the two communitiesP-The that have been pnt to them this morning,· great majority of them. (Rajkumari but I would like just to ask them two or Amrit Kaur.) Speaking for our Or~>:anisa three qnestiona. Rajknmari Amrit Kanr, tions, where we have a- system of elec would I be right in c01iclnd ing ' from tion, the question of Hindu and Muslim your evidence that whatever '&re the has never cropped up, and we invari qnalificationa which ultimately the Joint ably do have numbers of Muslim women Select Committee will accept for women working for u• and elected ·by us. · I "Voters, if those· qualifications give· yon do ·not think that our Muslim w01nen th& vote in your individual right, the Members of our Organisation will ;hnve Women's Aasociations will be• prepared no objection.· - , · to accept themP-certainly, because we 0443. My point is this, Rajknmari, want the full quota; but as I say, :we . that the · women of India, as united do lay great 8tress on the numbers as Indians, demand the number· of seats well as on the qnality of the "Vote, and being reserved for them, but when· it the fact that · it should be given to . us comes te the question of these reserved in our inherent right. • · · ' seats being accepted by His Majesty's 0437. Do I understand aright that the Government and when there has been no minimum number ·of women voter~! settlement between tlhe two major com acceptable to yon, both for the Provin munities, do yon think that all the Mus cial aa well as for the Central Assemblies, lim women in !fOUr. Organisation will is that reoommended by the Lothian agree to having them divided on a non Committee ?-The very minimum. , · communal basisP-They . will not agree C438. Adult suffrage not having been to having them on a communal' basis. accepted, and if the women are to have They would certainly agree to what our the votes under different qualifications, Organisations have invariably stood for. do you not tlhink that your Women's · C444 .. Hav~ not some of your oon Organisations would be well advised te mtuencies differed on that pointP-No; think twice .before they refused re 11o constituencies have differed. served seats?-! told you that we would C445. What about · the Karachi con be willing to accept reserved seats on the stituency P-Only three members of that conditions that I have ali'88Wy laid down, oonstitnency. '_ . . · C439. Realising that. w-hen the fight C446. And JOme of -the Members of between the different. communities in your Standing Committee as well, I certain provinces wae over one or twQ understand P-On pur Standing Com seats here and there, and that reserv,... mittee, apart from yourself, was there tion of seats might meau their division any other· Member who differed P-I do being on oommunal lines, most of the not think so; I have not had any in- Women's Organisations 'ilid not ask far formation on that point. · · reservation of seats; is that not JO?:..._ · · 0447. Supposing you :were to ask some Of course. ' ' · of· these !Muslim women, · especiaHy in 0440. In the absence of a settlement some of the Provinces where Muslims are between the two major communities, in the majority, · like the . Punjab and would it be right for you to say that Sind, for inatance, to decide the question almost all the Muslim women :within on its merits, that in the absence of a these organisations would ask for- these settlement between two communities, if seat. to be on non-communal linesP..... there are to be reserved seats, would tlley OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 65 29° Julii, 1933.] RA>KUMARI AHRIT KAUR and Mrs. H.uun ALI. [Continued. accept them on the basis of joint electorates been this, that there has been no oom do you think the majority of them would munal feeling, as fnr as the women of agree with you?-! still thin!k they would India are concerned; but do you not agree with us. May I give yon a small think that when His Majesty's Govern instance of my own constituency which is ment has been forced to give an award 90 per cent. Muhammadan P A question those who wished to work for any chang~ of membership, of having two women in the system of electorates would be well 'members on the local municipality came advised to do it in India, rather than up, and, a.s you know, :women members of over hereP-(Rajkumari .4mrit KauT.) a municipality can only be nominated Certainly we should work in India, but, and the Commissioner has the Tight to at the very beginning of a Constitution, nominate them. I put it to a very large :we object to being forced into a room meeting at which there were, I thin'k, into which we have never wished to enter. about 1,500 women present also from the Yon say the decision has been forced npon villages and the surrounding suburbs, .and His Majesty's Government. By whom? the town of Jullundur, practically all By the men-only the men who were here . Muslims-! said to them that the Com at the Round Table Conference-not by missioner has suggested, if there wel'e a large section of the men in India, apart two women willing to stand for the muni from those wh<> came to the Joint Select cipality, one Hindu and one Muham Committee or the Round Table Confer madan, would they be good enough to ence, and certainly never by the women elect those two from amongst themselves', of India. so that I might submit the names tO him. The answer that came without one Mr. M. R. Jayaker. moment's thought was: . " Why should C452. Do I understand yon to say that the Commissioner nominate them? Why you apprehend that the happy relations should we not nominate them P " The now existing between Hindu and Muslim second is:. If We do not want to send one women would be destroyed gradually if Hindu and one Muhammadan. Why this virus were introdncedP- 29° Julii, 1933.] R.AnroMABI AIDuT KA.un and Mrs. H.urm Au. [Continued. Provincial Legislatures as well as in the Is that what it meansP-Yea. We have two Central Assemblies P-Yes. Aa I have said this in the case of the women quali said before, I have not been able to fied under the literacy as well as under understand the logic of the White Paper the property qualification, because we felt proposals, because of the extraordinary it would he administratively 110 much way in which they vary from Province easier to have just the one roll; and,. in to Province. I do not understand it at the eecond IJllace, it would give us a all. stronger women's vote for the Feder!'!. C455. Would you tell the Committee Assembly, which is going to be the mam something about your constituency in· House for all that we want done in India. Peshawar -and the North-West Frontier? C460. That is the Assembly in which, -Yes. We have only . recently. had under the Government 'proposals, women formed a constituency of the AU-India will have only one vote in 20 P-Yes. Women't.- Conference in PEJBhawar, and C461. Would you just tell us why you we are shortly to have one in Ambala as think the Assembly is tbe main Assembly, well; that is a Frontier Province. The from the point of vie'! of the women's last thing these .women said to me at · caseP-I think it ia going to he in this Lucknow last winter was : " If you are to Assembly that all Bills for educational go to give evidence before the Joint reform, for social reform, for the removal Select Committee, never give up adult of our legal disebilities, :which :will be franchise or any system based thereon, All-India questions, are going to oome because if we find in the Frontier we do forward. not get adult suffrage, we are not going ·C462. Surely, education and the greater to COl"& into the picture at all, and we part of ordinary social reform will be a are very anxious to have our full strength Provincial matter, will it not?-No; I in the future Constitution." think when it comes to the removal of Marquess of Lothian. disebilities under which women suffer, legal or otherwise, it must come )lefore C456. Rajk:umari, a very few questions. the AU-India Legislature. · I am afraid we have already tested yon C463. At any rate, the opinion of your to the maximum, but I know your Associations is that women's questions capacity, from my own experience in will figure very prominentlyP-Yes, very Lahore. First .of all, on the point of the prominently; that is what we feel, and application, the estimate of the Franchise we do want a stronger· women's vote Committee waa that the number of wives for the Members returned to that who would ile qualified on the property House, men or women. qualification rwaa just over 4,000,000 ? C464. Just one question on the so-called Yes. wives' qualification. You have no objec 0457. I do not know whether you read tion in itself to property being a qualifi Sir Tej Sa.pru's analysis of the reasons cation for a woman being put ou the why women would be reluctant to apply roll ?-Property in her own right, no. to be put on the electoral roll P-I am C465. Supposing the qualification f~r afraid I have not been able to read them what is called the wives' vote was mo·li-· in detail; I have jnst glanced over them. field, so that the property itself qunlified 0458. Supposing the application con either a man or a woman, or, in the event dition ie maintained, what sort of pro of her being married, both-in other portion of those 4,000,000 women would, words, that the woman was qualified in in practice, be likely actually to apply her O\V!l right by reason of the fact of to be put on the roll-that is, probably the property qualification, 1\Voulil you feel a year ·before the election takes place P that ther~ would be the same psychologi I should be very much surprised if, out cal objection P-No, not quite the same. of those 4,000,000, even 1,000,000 applied (Mrs. Hamid Ali.) May I ask, would a --"'&ry surprised, indeed. I should be man be qualified on his :wife's property tempted to put it at even a lower figure to vote also. . than that. 0166. I was going on to ask you that, · 0459. Then would you turn to y""r whether if you added that, such husbands aupplementary statement, section (B). as were not qualified by their own pi'O Am I right in thinking that your sugges perty, but w'hose wives were qualified, tion for putting women on the roll for and were on the roll, would not that re the Atloembly is that you should take the move a good . deal of yonr objection P women qualified in their own property Only one part of our objection not a right for the Provincial Assembly and great deal. (Rajkumari AmTit' KauT.) make them the voten for the Assembly. We have other objections as well. OF TBB JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 61 29° Ju!ii, 1933.] RAIXUMARI A:muT KAUR and Mrs. HAMID ALI. [Continued. C467. On that particular point, would vote will be scattered over the length and that not moderate your feelings, a bit? breadth of India, and in the eleven Pro N o, because, after all, the husbands :who vinces there will probably be less than would be enfranchised on the wives' quali half a million in each, and a certain fication :would be so few in number. number of those will also be in the urban areas, so that this vote is not going to Sir Hari. Singh Gour. be strong enough to count and to carry C467A. You would regard it as a sop? any real weight. Therefore, we have sug Yes; we should really regard it as a sop. gested, only as long liB we do not get this adult franchise, that we should be given Marquess of L.othian. the vote in an area, even t'hough it covers .. 0468. My last question is this. You a small area, and even though it will have stressed the importance that you affect a. smaller number of men and attach to baving adult franchise in. the women :who are returned to the Legisla tures; at any rate, let us have them in towns, because & -certain number of per sons would be returned to the Legisla large numbers and, through them, in Jiuence the other members. That is our ture .by men and women voting in, more answer to it. or less, equal numbersP-Yes. C468A. I think you 'have estimated that C470. Yon prefer a. small number of that would cover about 14 per cent. of members who are intensely responsive to the seats? Is that correctP-We said the :women's vote than to have a large that the adult population in towns was number of voters who are less responsive P 14,000,000. -Yes, but my point is, tha.t if· we coucld make our voice really heard amongot the 0469. It does not matter for the pur larger number, we will accept it. There pose of' my argument. I think most fore, I aay, if in addition to constituencies people who have contested elections would in urban areae, you are willing to give say, that if you wanted to get :women's ~ some franchise in the rural areas, we questions considered by a Legislature; will aooept at once, · but giv& us the you would have very much more effect if quality of the vote, as well as the all the Members of the Legislature, when quantity. fighting their elections, had to take into Chai1'111a'A. account a considerable number of :women voters. With the suffrages, both sides C471. Subject to your approval, Raj would be anxious to get in in order to. kumari, I propose to make arrangements win, and, therefore, would have to con for yon to make a statement before the sider the matter as of interest to tho•e main Committee. May I assom& that women voters, and you would bring that course is agreeable to yoilP-Yes; women's questions far more formidably but does than mean that the statement before the Legislature where every can will he all that we do before ~he Main didate had to pay a consideration to the Committee? Will there be no oppor women's vote th'an if only a small propor- tunity for those Members who have not tion had to pay rather more attention,. been able to hear us to-day, t.o crosa because there were more women voters in ex:amine us? their constituency. Hav~ you any ans:wer Chairma11o.] The Committee, when the to 1ihatP-Yes, because, as I say-1 think statement is made, must decide that for we have put it in our supplementary itself. Uhder the House of Lords proce statemenfr-that these four and a quarter dure, it rests with the Committee itself, millions who are to b (After a short adjournment.) Mra. P. K. SBN and Mrs. L. Muxmux are called in and examined. Chairman. C473. And you have provid\i the Com mittee with Memoranda numblred 41, 42 0472. Mrs. P. K. Sen and Mrl'. L .. Mukerji, you are here on behalf of the and 43 P-Yes, that is so. Mahila Samiti Ladies' Association P The Memoranda are as follows : -· (Mra. Sen.) Yes, that is so. 20116 G2 68 .M:INJJTES OF BVIDBNOB TAKEN BEFORE BllB-CO.M:llllTTBB C .29° J ulii, 1933.] [Continued. MEMORANDUM 41 BY MRS. P. K. SEN ON THE FltANCHISE OF WOMEN. - The women of Bengal strongly protest cation, and :would automatically increase against the reduction of the voting women's voting strength as time goes on. strength of women in the new constitu without new legislation. tion proposed by the White Paper as 7. The provision that women should compared to the voting strength suggested he required to make application to be by the Indian Franchise Committee. entered on the electoral roll would in The following memorandum stresses the evitably reduce very considerably the minimum voting strength :which :will potential number of women voters. It satisfy the women of Bengal and which is therefore essential that this provision they regard as a preliminary stage to should he deleted. •We do not see the wards eventual adult suffrage. difficulty in placing the wife's name on the Register at the same time as that TRB PROVINCIAL LBGISLA!rlllUiol. of the husband. It would he far easier 1. In the memorandum submitted by to get the particulars required from the the women of Bengal to the members of hom~s t~an for women to make special the Indian Franchise Committee the pro application to the Returning Officer. posal of the Statutory Commission to en 8. In the event, however, of ita being franchise the wives and widowa of men found unavoidably necessary to retain entitled to vote under a property quali this provision, it is submitted that the fication was approved, and it was also number of women voters thus lost must proposed that an indirect group system be made good by some other means, e. o. of voting, for the rest of the ad•llt by ~~d.iktg the bushand'ls property wom10n population, should be adopted. qualification to wives of all propertied If both the proposals had been accepted, voters, and not merely to the wives of about 30 per cent. of adult women would men. poseesing the higher property quali have been enfranchised. fications at present prescribed for the :.!. The Indian Franchise Committee's Provincial Councils. If this is not done women will fail to secure any appreciable propossls, if adopted, would have en representation. · franchised only 10 per cent. of adult 9. We approve the :wife's vote on the women. . but 43. per- cent. of adult men ' givlDg a votlDg ratio of one :woman to husband's qualification both because of roughly 4t men. - its ~nvenience and because it en .franch1ses women in rural as •Nell as in 3. The proposals of the White Paper urban a~eas. If for any reason at should naw cut down that ratio to one woman be cons1dered impossible, it would he to seven men, and in practice the ratio n~ary ~ substitute some other quali will be still less, since it is proposed to fications which would bring up the voting make women apply to be put on the electoral roll. st~ngth to the requisite number. For this purpose we should be prepared to . 4. T~e women of Bengal advocated accept an alternative qualification if it Simple hteracy as a qualificati<>n for the could be shown that the. total nu~ber of franchise of women over 21 years of age. women enfranchised would be not l••• Thi~ qualification was accepted by the th~n that p~oposed by the Indian Fran Indian Franchis" Committee IUld forms chise Committee. part of their proposals. Tmo FBDBRAL Lao-ISLATUBB. S. We are therefore dismayed to find in the _Whi~ Paper that the educational 10. The proposals of the White Paper quahficat!on r-:commended for Bengal is admittedly leave the ratio of women to the matriculation or school-leaving certi men electors the same as at present for fica~ (AJ?pendix V, p. 106). So high a the Legislative Assembly, on the ground qualification would ~enfranchise a fairJ of administrative difficulties and of objec number of men but an ;usignilicant num tiOns to a differential franchise based 011 ber of women. education (p. 12, par. 21). The ratio is about one woman to ·20 men. Yet it is . 6. We ~esire to urge most strongiy that expressly stated that " His Majesty's Simple htell&ey as a Qualification fl<>r Government are very anxious to secure women should be restored, since it would that the proportion of women electors enable women who have ·been educated should he adequate." (p.94.) at home to become voters. Further, it would serve as a stimulus to adult edu- . 11. In view of the very small propor tion of women enfranchised under the OF :l'HE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 59· 29° Julii, 1933.] [Continued. White Paper proposals, and the impor. same rights and duties as citizens there tance to women of subjects like marriage should be a clause in the new Constitu· and inheritance dealt with by the tion clearly providing that the rights of Federal Legislature, :we would urge that, women ae citizens shall not be denied or in spite of administrative difficulties, abridged in any manner what.Qever on .some arrangement to increase the number account of sex . of women is necessary. If it is found to be impossible to carry out the recommen· El.BOTORATI!S. dations of the Franchise Committee, we 15. It is a matter of deep regret to the suggest that the roll of women voters for women of India, :who have always been the Provincial Councils, on the husband's free from communal diiferences, that property qualification, might also be used they should be compelled to record their for the Federal Legislature. · votes in separate electorates. Onr :women should be able to seek electio~, for the TaB U PPBR C..A>lliER. seats reserved for them, without con 12. For the Upper Chamber, qua)ifi. sideration of the creed or community to cations should bQ such as to secure the which they -belong. eligibility of a. considerable number of women. CONCLUSION. FUND.u MEMORANDUM 42. ON THE STATUS OF WOMEN UNDER THE NEW INDIAN CONSTITUTION, HANDED IN BY MRS. P. K. SEN. We desire :to present this memorandum Pre•ent positi~m of 10omen with regard to you and to request you to give special to franchise. consideration to the points raised in it 4. The present franchise given on equal as the matter concerns the welfare of terms to men and women, and based nearly half the population of India. mainly on property, produces in actual Civil rights and dutiea of women. practice, a very great discrepancy be 2. In the first place, we wish to urge tween them in voting power, as the that a clause should be inserted in the number of women voters is at present new constitution safeguarding women wholly inadequate when oompared to tba from disabilities imposed on them as total population of women. Statistics women in the exercise of civic rights. show that while the proportion of men Sex should be no disqualification for voters is 10 per cent. of the total adult serving India and men and women should male population the proportion of women I~Uve fundamentally the same right• and voters is only .6 per cent. of the total duties aa citi.oens. Franchise. adult female population. We would em- 3. We are also keenly interested in the . phasise the fact tbat adult franchise franchise qualifications for women and w->uld provide a solution of t~· disparity we earnestly hope that this matter will between men &nd women v ers, but if receive very careful consideration by the there is no hope of imm iate adult Committee, and that such qualifications franchise in any form, we 1Di3h to. point may be prescribed for women as will give out, that aa a temporary mearure and them their due share in electing repre until adult jranchi&e is obtained, special sentatives to the legislatures. We desire qualifications for women will be required to place a few important points on this to increa&B their 11oting strength anti subject before you. make it a real factor in elections. 70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE St;B-COMMITTEE 0 29" Julii, 1003.] [Continued. M ethodll for g.vmg women an adequate View4 of the Third .Round Table Oo"' ,oting ,t.-ength. fereme on Prcwincial Franchile. 5. Certain proposals havs been put 6. We are glad to note from the Re forward fo,. these special qualifications port of the third Round Table Collfer for women: · ellce of 1932 that " the gelleral feeling ' 1 (1) The Indian Statutory Commission of the Conference was in favour of the recommended:- propOB&d literacy stalldard for womell, though some members would have pre (a) being the wife, over 25 years ferred the eame standard for both msn of age, of a man who has the pro and women. The Report further records perty qualification to vote. that there was a ""ry general difference (b) being a widow, over 25 years of opinion coocerning tb.e proposal to of age, whOB& husband at the time e11franchis& the wives of men qualified of his death was so qualified.:_ by property to vote for the pres&nt Pro (2) The women delegates at the Round vincial Councils. Table Oonf&rence in l9aO supported this iWe avould in reply point out that this proposal with the modifu:ation that the prq>osal of the Franchise Committee ia in age should be the sam& as that for men, fact a very cautioua Olle, and it would i.e., 21 and not 25 years. enfranchis& oonaiderably fewer women than the oorreaponding proposal by the (3) The Franchise Sub-Committee of Indian Statutory Commi&aion. If ev-en that Conference (1930) agreed that specia.l this moderate proposal of the Franchis& qualiftcatio1111 should be prescribed for Committee is dropped, the effect will he women and recommended that the expert to reduce the number of women voters by FranchiS& Committee ~honld devote par ticular attention to this question. in· the more than half. Agai\'• if the Upper Primary Standard he substituted for light of the evidence available and of tha literacy, the effect will be to incre&s& the proposal mads by ths women delegates. disparity betwen men and women vote:·s ( 4) The Indisn Franchis& Committee in as statistics prove that e11en now more 1932 recommended for the Provincial boy& than girl& attend &chool• and pa•s Legislatures that, for bath men and te&t& or examinatiom, and there wa• a women, the property qualification should •till greater difference in their numbers be substantially lowered, and that there when the adult& of to-da11 were bo11• and should also be an education qualification. girl&. . , • . . .• Recognising however that, in the e&s& of TILe · White Pap~r: PropomZ...:..Provinciai women, " theoretic equality under a Te Franchiae. stricted franchise means in practice ex treme inequality," they propos&d that, V. Under the White Paper proposals in the cas& of men, the educational quali the frallchise in general for provincial fication should he the • passing of the legislatures will be esaentially based Oil Upper Primary Standard, .,r an property su.pplemented by all educatiollal equivalent test; in tJhe C&BB -of women qualification, common to men and women simple literacy. They also proposed alike, and by a qualification for women another special qnaliftcation for IWOmsn in 29° Julii, 1938.] [Continued. accepted by the Local Government ao the fran.chise for the future Provi·ncial equivalent of either." .II&Bemblie• and for the FedeTa! .48sembly Under a qualification based on a public should be the same. examination very few women will come on the register, particularly in Provinceo, Views of· the ThiTd Round Table 00'1> where education among women is still fOTe·nce on Franchise for the Federal very backward, and where the majority lls•emb!y. of even the few educated· women have, 9. In its chapter on the Federal Legis because of social custom, never been to lature, the Report of the Third Round schools, or passed examinations. It is Table Conference states that " the con extremely unlikely that auy adult women ference accepted generally the proposal if literate, would be allowed by social that the franchise for the British Indian custom to sit for a public educational section of the future Assembly shall be examination, of however lnw a. standard, the existing franchise for the Provincial so that women already educated at home Legislative Councils ,.,_,, the conferenoe will not be qualified to vote, because they was unable to agree a.s regards the adop have not passed a public examination. tion of an educational qualification for We have no doubt therefore that if the women voters for the Federal Assembly, Government proposals are adopted the the same arguments as :were lidvanced propurtion of women to men voters will for and against the proposal in the case be far lower even than the Govarnment of the Provincial legislatures holding good estimate of 1 : 7 and the women's vote in their view here also ". We, too, would will continue to be a negligible factor in repeat our replies to those arguments elections in those Provinces where an given in para. 6 above when urging that educational qualification higher tllan bare the same special qualification of literacy literacy, is prescribed for women. should be proscribed for women for the Federal Assembly franchise also. Fro.ncllise for tile Federal llnemb!y: Proposals of tile Indian Franchise Franchise jOT the Fedeml Assembly Committee. recommended by the White Paper. 8. With· regard to the franchise for the 10. The 29° Julii, 1933.] [Continued. this high educational qualification. The property qualification, instead of ·merely franchise (1932) Committee's Report to the wives of men possessing the pro (para. 409) points out that ·even if the perty qualificationa prescribed at present Upper Primary qualification were for the Provincial Councils. adopted, the " number of women on the electoral roll for the Federal Assembly Importance of adequate Women's l'ofe will be very amaU." The proposal of the for the Federal A.,embly. White Raper to prescribe an educational 12. There ia one other point which we qualification of such a high standard as should like to emphasise. A.e the Federal the Matriculation or S. S. L. C. examina Assembly will deal with many questions tion, for both men and women, will of which are of particular ooncern to Indian course reduce the number of women women and on which the views of men voters for the Assembly far below the and women may differ, it is essential that number who would be qualified were the the members of t!he House of Assembly Upper Primary qualification prescribed, shouid be responsive to a large women's and we would point out that the number vote if the vimvli of women are to have a of women electors who would be qualified fair chance of infiuencing legislation on under even this Upper Primary qualifica these subjects. In vimv therefore of the tion waa considered inadequate by the legislative importance of the Federal Franchise Committee unless this quali- , Assembly to women we would repeat that fication waa modified by the special women t>oter• for that Assembly should temporary literacy qualification for have the •ame qu.alificatio,.. of literacy women proposed by them. The educa and of the hmband' • propertu quolifica tional qualification propo&ed bu the White tior• 114 recommended for them by the Paper will therefo•·• surelu lower the ratio Indian Franchi&e Committee for the Pro of women to men elector• below even its "incial ASiemb!ies. pre&ent inadequate figure. T.he British Go,ernment anxiou• that the Effect of theNew Regulation on Women'• proportion of Women Elector• •hould Vote. be ad equate. 11. The White Paner further modifies 13. We are glad that ·the British tbe proposals of the Franchise Committee Government have stated that they fully .by adding a proviso that for both the appreciate the importance of a large Assembly and the Provincial Council elec women· s electorate and are very anxious toral rolls the claimants in respect of an to secure that the proportion of :women educational qualification or of property electors should be adequate, and admit held by a husband will be required to that further oonsideration of the subject make an application to be entered on the may be necessary. We do most earnestly electoral roll to the Returning Officer. hope that the Joint Select Committee will The Franchiae Committee suggested this bear this in mind, and will carefully con condition only in the case of women who sider the arguments we have urged for were not recorded as litt.)rate in the edu .. the necessity of enlarging the women's · cational reoorda, and n ,t of all women electorate both in the Provincial and in who would be qualified nuder these two the Central Legislatures. We hope that apecial qualificationa. There is no doubt on consideration of these arguments thev that the only poasible effect of this pro will modify the Government'• proposois viso must be a lowering of the number so as to enable women to have a share in of women voters, for certain social dis the electorate more in proportion to their abilities such as purdah, seclusion, etc., number and their importance to the under which many Indian women still country. labour, makes this condition much more Opinion of Women in India. difficult for them to fulfil than for men. 14. We are aware tihat certain :women's We would urge therefore that this con organisationa in. In_dia have in the past dition should not be prescribed for women put forward objectiOna j;o special voting and that the recommendation of the q~alification~ for .women; but these objec Franchise Committee on this point should tiOna have mvar1ably been ooupled with be adO 29° Julii, 1933.] [Continued. would be satisfied with a mere paper women in rural areas of their rightful equality, resulting nnder .a restricted share in :the franchise and its educational franchise in an almost negligible propor and other a.dvantages. For :these re...Ons tion of votes. The Report of the Indian we strongly urge that the Pl"l'posal of }'ranchise Committee shows that many of tlb.e Indian Franchise Committee to pre the women witnesses who gave evidence scribe a epecial qualification for, married before the Committee, some of them women on husband's property qualifica Upper women's electorate can be enlarged by Chamber of the Federal legislatures will enfranchising all women of 21 years and be filled by indirect election by tlhe Pro over, living in urban areas. We wish vincial legislatures, no question of .fran to state that we have · no objection chise qualifications arises, though certain to the adoption of this scheme as specific property or other qualifications a means · of further increasing the . will be required in members of the Upper number· of women voters recom House ". (pwra. 20, page 6.) Under mended by the Indian Franchise Com the present qualifications for election to mittee, but we are opposed to substi the Council of State the number of tuting this ·proposal for the proposal of women who would be qualified to stand the Indian Franchise Committee to en is infinitesimal, and we would urge that franchise the wife of a man possessing if these qualifications are ~ to ·be con a specified property qualification, as we tinued for the new Federal Upper Cham are sure that. sudh a substitution will ber, some modification in them should result in an unequal and unfair dis be made for women candidates. tribution of voting power between women In this connection it is illuminating to in urban and in rural areas. .Under the note that in spite of a. strong demand literacy qualification, far more women from women, the Council of State has not will come on the roll in urban than in yet extended the rigbt to vote or stand rural areas, as education is undoubtedly for election, even to those few women more advanced in towns than in villages, who possess these high qualifications. and this new proposal to have adult All practical experience on legislative frandhise for women in urban areas, will measures affecting women has also shown further increase the disparity in numbers that this body is reactionary in its between the women voters in urban and . attitude to women, we are naturally t·ural areas. The women in viHages. are anxious tlhat the qualifications to serve in many respects less advanced than the on this body ahould be modified as to women in urban areas, and they specially make it possible for an adequate number need the stimulating effect of the fran of women to be eligible for election. chise to awaken in them a full sense of civic responsibility. 'l'he vote tlherefore Summa1'1J of owr Recommendations. is of far greater importance and valuE' 16. We would summarise our demands to them, in educating them and in rais by urging with all the force at our com ing their status generally, than it is to mand, that if the Joint Select Com the women in the urban a.ress. We have mittee finds itself unable to recommend tlherefore no doubt that the substitution any form of adult suffrage, it · may at of this proposal for the special qua,lific,.. least not ask the women of India to be tion .proposed by the Indian Fran<•hise satisfied with enytlhing less than the Committee will cause grave injustice to measure of franchise rights for the Pro many millions of women and retard the vincial Assemblies recommended for them progress of women's advancement in our in the Report of the Indian Franchise vil!ages. Many of us, signatories of this Committee of 1932; and because of the memorandum, have lived in rural areas special legislative importance of the and are well acquainted with the con Federwl Assembly to women we would ditions prevailing tlbere and we feel it urge tJhat the wome11's electorate for t-hat would be grossly nnfah- to deprive the body should not be less than a third of MINUTES OF l!.VIDBNCB TAKEN BEFORE SUB-cOMMITTEE C : 29° J ulii, 1933.] [Continued. the total electorate. W01 ....., convinced Shrimati Kalyanammal, c/o P. R~ that nothing Jess than this measur.. of Sundara Aiyar, Vakil Dharmapuri. franchise will be fair or just to the Shrimati K. Kanthamma Garu, women in India, considering their num Komireddi House, Cocanada. bers and importance in the country. Shrimati Sukirtha Amma Garu, c/o D. B. Rajamanickam, Medical Pr&eti Com:ltuion. tioner, Dharmapuri. 17. In conclusion we would res;.ectfully Shrimati M. S. Mahalakahmi · Amma. urge that the consideration of the ques Garu, Zamindarni, Riverside, tion of women's franchise be not post Cocanada. poned or left to be dealt with by the Shrimati Krishnaveni Garu, c/o V. P. Central and Provincial Governments or Krishnaswami, B.-4.., B.L., Vakil, legislatures at some future and uncertain Dharmapuri. date. We request that the claims of Shrimati P. Sayamma Garu, Komireddi women be examined at the same time as House, Cocanada. those of the rest of India. and before the Shrimati Indira Bai, c/o A. Krishna Bill for the new Indian Constitution be . moorty, Vakil, Dharmapuri. · finally drafted and presented to Parlia. Shrimati Krishnavenamma, Ron. Magis ment. trate, First Claea :Bench, Cocanada. . Shrimati V. Ba.mhoomam .Ammal, Board Signed by the following- Girls' School, DharmapurL Mrs. H. S. Hansman, M.A., Ron. Preay. Shrimati D. KrishnaJmmari . Gam, c/o :Magistrate, Member, Madras Univer Dewan Babadur D. Sheshagiri Rao, sity Senate, Ag. President, Y.W.C.A., Cocanada. Vice-President, Women Graduates Shrimati V. Rajamaui Ammal, Hindu Union. Girls' School, Dharmapuri. Miss Mariam Oommen, M.A., Ph.D., Pro Shrimati M. Kamalammal, Za.mindarni, fessor of Chemistry, Women's Christian Riverside, Cocanada. College, Madras. Shrimati lndu Jdgungi Ammal, c/o D. N. Miss Eleanor Mcdougall, M.A., D.Litt., Kumtha, Agent, Bellary. Principal, Women's Christian College, Shrimati Andalamma, c/o K. Srinivasa Madras. . chari, Bellary. Mrs. Krishna Menon, c/o Dr. Krishn& 8hrimati K. Janakiamma, Bellary. Menon, Salem. )I iss D. J. Stephens, St. Andrews Honse, Mrs. P. Sushila Bai, cfo P. 8. Ragnnatha Kilpauk, Madras. Row Avl., B.A., B.L., Advocate, Mrs. D. Brito, Landholder, .Mangalore. Bellary. • Mrs. N. Rama Rao, Sbivab&gh, Manga. Shrimati K. Kamalammal, Bellary. Jore. Shrimati W. Saradamba Ga.m, Undavalli Zamindarni, Gonndampalyam, Salem Dt. House, Cocanada. Mrs. A. J. Lobo, Hon. Presy. Magistrate, Shrimati G. V. Kamalamani Ammal, San Thome, Madras. Digumurthivaru Street, Cocanada. Mrs. Saraswati Achar, M.B.B.S., D.G.O., Mrs. K. Kalianaswami Ammal, c/o K. K. Hon. Aast. Surgeon, Headqu&rters Swamy, Retd. Sub-Judge, Cocanada. Hospital, Tanjore. Shrimati P. Venkayammal, c/o P. Ml"ll. Gumnatbam Chettiar, c/o D. K. Bhadriah, Dt. Educational Officer, Gumnatham Chettiar, B.A., President, Cocanada. Taluk Board, Dbarmapuri. Shrimati T. Satyavathi Ammal, Gandhi Shrimati B. Leelavatbi Bai, c/o B. N. N&gar, Cocanada. Shenoy, B.A., B.E., Aast. Engineer, Shrimati C. Kamalamma Gam, Judges Saleem. Bungalow, Cocanada. Shrimati S. Apputhan Ammal, cfo V. Shrimati T. Pushpalatlia Amma Garu, Swamidoss, Headmaster, Board High Ramarowpet, Cocanada, School, Dharmapuri. , Mrs. A. "Palmer, Elwinpet, Cocanada. Shrimati S. Rajamani Ammal, Board Shrimati T. Ramadevi Ammal, Rama Girls' School, Dharmapuri. rowpet, Cocanada. Shrimati T. Shantha Devi Garu, D.M.O.'a Mrs. E. Pe&eock, Gandhi Nagar, Bungalow, Cocanada. Cocanada. Shrimati R. Rajaratnam Ammal, Board Mrs. N. L. Subba Rao, Member, District Girls' School, Dharmapuri. Educational Council and Municipal Shrimati V. Venkataratnamma Garu, Council, Vice-President, Mahila Sabha Secretary, Ladies' Recreation Club, and Vice-President, Depressed Classes Cocanada. Miosion, Mangalore. OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 75 29° Julii, 1933. J [Continued. Miss C. R. Giddie, Gandhi Nagar, Shrimati Pydah Susilamma Gam, cfo P. Cocanada. Venkatanarayana Garu, Zamindar, Mi111 Jean Begg, General Secretary, Cocanada. National Y.W.C ..A., Calcutta. Shrimati S. Sundaramma. Temple Street, Mrs. K. Gopal Rao, c/o Gopal.Rao, .Asst. Cocanada. Surgeon, (.,'bingleput. . . Shrimathi D. Kamalamma Garu, cfo Mr. 0/o T. Sivakkolundu Mudaliar, .Avl., D. D. S. Ross, B.A., B.L., Vakil, .Advocate, Chingleput. . Cocanada. . Mrs. M. S. Vadder, Chingleput. Shrimathi K. V. Ratnamma · Garu, <>/o Mrs. J. V. Lingham, Lady Sub-Asst. Mr. K. Seetbaramayya, B.A., B.L., Surgeon, Chingleput. . Vakil, Cocanada. Mrs. R. T . .Andrews, Chingleput. L.M.P., Registered Medical Practiti<>ner, Shrimati S. Rajarathnam, Municipal Sallpet, Cocanada. Councillor and Taluk Board Member, Shrimati Pydah Rajamma. Garu, cfo Mr. Chingleput. . Pydah Pedah Rame Kristnayya, Zam Mrs. Jeevarathnam, Chingleput. indar, Cocanada. Mrs. E. G. Job, Hon. Magistrate, c/o Shrima.ti V. Ramana .Amma Garu, cfo G. V. Job, M.A., L.T., Headmaster, St. Dr. V. Kamaragu, L.M.S., Cocanada. Columba'S High School, Cbingleput. Shrimati K. Satyavati Ammal, c f o P. Mrs. J. R. Jeevaratnam, Chingleput. Ramaswamy, M.A., Principal, P. R. Miss Rosemary Samuels, B.Sc., Women's College, Cooanada. . College, Bangalore. · Shrimati Y. Kamakshamma, Zamindarni, Miss Elizabeth George, M.A., Professor of Cocanada. Philosophy and Logic, Women's Chris- Shrimati P. Seshamba, -c/o Mr. P. tian College, Madras. · Ramaswami, M.A., Principal, P. R. Shrimati Sosa Mathew, B.A., Y.W.C ..A., College, Cooanada. Trivandrum. Shrimathi M. .Annapurnamma Garu, Miss E. J. Mitter, National Y.W.C. .A., Zamindarni, Cocanada. Calcutta.. Shrimathi V. Hemalatha Gam, cfo Mr. Shrimati Mona A. Vergeese, B.A., K. Veeragu, Bank Road, Cocanada. Y.W.O.A., Bombay. Shrimati N. J anakamma, c I o Mr. N. Miss Edna Shott, G. C. F., Jubbalpore. Z<>ganandaras Pantulu Gam, B.A., Miss L. H. Raining,, Kankinara, Bengal. B.L,. Cocanada. Shrimati Radhabai Elisha, 63, Lady Shrimati C. Venkataramanamma. Gara, Hardinge Road, Matunga, Bombay. cfo Mr. E. Venkatarathnam Naidu, Miss Charlotte ·M. Nerney, St.. John's Wilson & Co., Cocanada. Church Road, Bangalore. Shrimati G. Nirmaladevi, c/o Dr. V. N. Mrs. Gnanabakkiam Samuel, W. and Ch. Kristnayya, Cooanada. Dispensary Tirupapu!iyur. Shrimati V. Kamala Sitamma Garu, cfo Shrimati Susan K- Joshua, M.A., L.T., Z<>gananda Rao Pantulu, B.A., B.L., ofo K. 0. Joshua, B.A., B.L., District Cocanada. Judge, Nagercoil, Travancore. Shrimati Mercy Lily Purushotham Rao, Shrimati Bh. Chilakamma Garu, c/o 633a, Kumma"'l(!!Oda, Secunderabad, B. L. Narayanarao Pantulu, Landlord, Deccan. Temple Street, Cooanada. Mrs. C. 0. Strange, Govt. Tel Qrs.,. Shrimati N. Lakshamma, Neelamvani Nagpur. · _ House,. Cocanada. Miss D. M. Pearson, B.A., Canadian Shrimati K. Rammani Ammal, c/o Dr. Mission, Indore. K. T. Naidu, B.A., L.M.S., Cocanada. Shrimati T. Mahalakshamma, Garu, <>/o Shrimnti P. R. Saraswati .Ammal, c/o K. Mr. T. Tirumala Rao Naidu, B.A., Ramachander, Esq., Bar-at-Law, L. T ., Ramarowpet, Cocanada. Bellary. Shrimati K. M. Sundary, Headmistress, Shrimati 'r. Lalithamba, c I o T. Krish Mahila Vidyolaya, Cocanada. namurthy, B.A., B.L., Vakil, Bellary. C/o Dewan Bahadur C. Ranganayakulu Mrs. Gopalaswami Mudaliar, c/o M. Garu, Retd. District Judg 29° Julii, 1983.] [Continued. Shrimati T. Kuppurajammal, cfo M. Mrs. H. Narayana Rao Ga.ru, c/o Rao Gopalaswami Mudalia.r, B.A., B.L., Sahib H. Narayana Rao Ga.ru, Advocate, M.L.C., Bellary. Anantapur. Shrimati P. Kamaladevi, c{o P. Ven Mrs. V. Krishniah Garu, cfo V. M. kata.subba Rao, B.A., B.L., Vakil, Kriahniah Garu, District Court Sheris Bellary. tadar, Anantapur. Shrimati A. Kamakshamma, cfo Pratapa Shrimati .N agammal Garu, Anantapur. Rao, Rama Vilas, Civil Lines, Bellary. Shrimati Vedantam Minaksha.mma, c/o Mrs. S. Venugopala, c/o S. Anjaneyalu, V. Chidambaram, Su·b-Dy. Registrar Advocate, Bellary. of Co-o,perative Societies, Anantapur. Mrs. M. Narayana Rao Garu, cfo N. Shrimati H. Sitamma, cfo Narasing:. Narayana Rao Garu, B.A., B.L., Rao, Pleader, Ana0tapur. Satyanarayanpet, Bellary. · Shrimati"Rajammal, Anantapur. ~frs. S. Narasimhalu, c/o S. Aujaneyalu, Shrimati S. Savithri Ammal, Anantapur. B.A., Advocate, Bellary. Shrimati 2\I. Nirajabai, c/o Metan Shrimati Mukta Bai, c/o N. M. Sirur, Narayana Rao, Vakil, Anantapur. Merchant, Bellary. Shrimati Y. Sivakamisundarammal, Shrimati N. Vi.salakshi Ammal, cfo N. Anantapur. Narayana Rao Garu, B.A., B.L., Shrimati Y. Ambamma, Anantapur. Satyanarayanapet, Bellary. Mrs. S. Ramamurthi Sastri Garu, c I o Mre. P. Shiva Rao Garu, c/o P. Shiva Ramamurthi Sastri, Huzur Sheristadar, Rao Garu, B.L., Advocate, Bellary. G.!orgepet. Shrimati N. Seethamma, c/o N, Nara Shrimati B. Ramayamma, Anantapur. yana Rao Garu, B.A., B.L., Advocate, Shrimati I. Lakshammal, Anantapur. Bellary. Shrimati P. Subadradevi, Anantapur. Mrs. B. V. Ramakrishna Rao Garu, cfo Shrimati B. Parvatamma Garu, Anan- P. Shiva. Ra.o Ga.ru, Civil Lines, tapur. · Bellary. Mrs. S. Giri Garu, Pleader, Anantapur. llfrs. P. Bhima. Rao, cfo P. Shiva Rao, Mris M. K. Sastry, cfo Mr. Krishna Advocate, Bellary. · swami Sastry, Additional Public Prose Mrs. Y. Mahableshwarap:pa Garu, c I o Y. cutor, Tanjore. Mahableshwarappa Garu, President, Miss Lakshmi Ammal, cfo P. A. Sam- District Board, Bellary. bandam, Tennur, Tridhinopoly. · Mrs. C. Balaji Rao, c/o C. Balaji Rao, Mrs. Sarma, c/o S. Padnabha Sarma, Chairma.n, Municipal Council, Bellary. D.M.O., Race Course, Trichinopoly. Shrimati Soolochana Bai, cfo S. D. Mrs. Rajagopalan," c/o V. R. Rajago Nagarka.r, Merchant, Bellary. palan, A. T .8, South Indian Railway, Shrimati K, Venkamma, c{o K. Srin Trichinopoly. garachar, Brahmin Street, Bellary. Mrs. Sadagopan, c/o K. Sadagopan, Asst. Mrs. N. Ramuni, cfo Dr. N. Ramuni, :Auditor, South Indian Railway, Trich- Bellary. mopoly. • Mrs ..B. Shiva Rao,. cfo B. Bhima Rao, Mrs. G. Gnanamuth11 Arulagam Puthur Advocate, Bellary. TrichinQPoly. ' · · ' Shrimati G. Padmavathi Ammal, c/o G. Mrs. S. J. Doraiswamy, No. 6, Kandy Vedagiri Chetty, Cashier, Imperial Street, Beemannagar, Trichinopoly. Bank, Bellary. Shr!mati Kamalatchi .Ammal, c/o P. Miss Grace Pra.bhakar, cfo Dr. l>rab> Siv~gnana ~udaliar Avl., B.A., B.L., hakar, Hubli, Bombay Presidency. Ret~red Chief Judge, Puthur· High Mias A. B. Van Doren, M.A., National Road, Tridhinopoly. Christian Council, Nagpur. Mrs. G. David, c/o N. David, Retd. Miss Mira. Ramada&, B.A., L.T., Ambroti Deputy Collector, Tridhinopoly. . Manse, Bombay. · Mias Iris Wingate, Nationa.I Y.W.C.A., Mrs. D. Anbu, Puthur, Trichinopoly. Bombay. Mrs. Sornam Samuel, oJo Mr. Samuel Mi.ss Madhuri Dutt, 171, Maniktolla. •Christian College, Madras. ' Street, Calcutta.. Mrs. L. Sandaresan, cfo Mr. Sandare Miss 0. I. Lawrence, National Y.W.C.A., ean, Teppakulam, Trichinopoly. Calcutta. Mrs. M. J. Jesudason, cfo Mr. Jesuda Mrs. R. B. Manickam, M.A., B.Sc., son, Municipal Engineer " Rishi Guntur, South India. · Van am," Trichinopoly. ' Mno. T. Purushotham Garu, cfo T. MrRas.. A. Rajanayakam, c/o Mr. J>•. J. Purushotham, Head Olerk, District Janayakam, Deputy Inspector of Court, Anantapur. Scllools, Trichinopoly. OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE . ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 7 7 29° J ulii, 1933. J [Continued. Mrs. D. Santlwsham, !Head Mistress, Shrimati C. G. Chengu Bai, M. G. Board Girls' School, Musiri. School, Poona.mpet, Salem. Shrimati Doraiappa Ammal, Zamin Slhrimati P. Jebamany Ammal, M. Girls' darni of Pappanad, Tanjore Dt. School, SivasamYi()uram, Salem. Slhrimati Muthulakehmi Ammal, cfo R. Shrimati Juswant Kaur, Kodaikanal. Mutbuswamier, Pappanad P.O., Tan Shrimati S. Ananda Ra.o, Madras. jore Dt. Miss M. A. Loader, Masulipatam. Shrimati Ranganayaki Ammal, c f o Ven Miss M. A. Greene, Madras. katakrishna Rao, Pappanad P.O., Tan Miss D. Leedham, Masulipatam. jore Dt. Miss E. A .. Knight, Bezwada. Shrimati Parvathi Ammal, cfo S. Sub Miss D. E. Fleet, Travanoore. ramanier, PaPIJlanad P.O., Tanjore Dt. :Miss M. Bretherton, Gudwada. Slhrimati Nilambal, cfo Veeraswamier. Mrs. P. Vincent Raj, Member Municipal Pappanad, P .0., Tanjore. Council and President, Women's Asso Shrimati Kunjammal, cfo S. Gopala, ciation, Virudhnnagar. Aiyar, PaPIJlanad P.O., Tanjore Dt. Mrs. Anne Victor, Lakshmana, Kothanar Shrimati Vijayalakshmi Ammal, c f o S. Street, Virud!hunagar. Rangaswamy Iyengar, Pappanad, P.O., Mrs. S. Ambrose, Vice-President, Virud Tanjore Dt. hunagar Women's Association, Virud Shrimati Savithri Ammal, cfo Subram hunagar. anier, Pappanad, P.O., Tanjore. i\frs. C. Krishnaswamy Pillai, c/o Civil Shrimati Valambal, cfo S. Gopala Aiyar, Assistant Surgeon, Virudbnnagar. PO!Ppanad, P.O., Tanjore. Mrs. V. V. Ramaswami, e/o Chairman, Shrimati SundaralDbal, cfo Pandlap Municipal Council, Virudhunagar. akesa Gurukkal Pappanad, P.O., Tan l\Irs. S. Saraswatbi, Member, Women's jore Dt. Association, Virudhunagar. Shrimati Sulochana Am mal, c f o Raj am Mrs. V. V. Muthammal, Member, Women's Association, Virudhunagar. Chettiar, Pap,pannd, Tanjore Dt. Mrs. M. Nagarathnam, Member, Shrimati J. Jayalakshmi Ammal, cfo S. Women's Association, Virudhunagar. Srinivasa Iyengar, Pappanad, Tanjore. Mrs. V. Sornam, Member, Women's Asso Shrimati Pa.nkajathammal, c f o Srinibasa Iyengar, Pwppanad, P.O., Tanjore. ciation, Virudhunagar. Mrs. T. Padmavathi, Member, Women's Slhrimati Alamelu Ammu.l, c f o Ramas Associat.ion, Virudhunagar. wami Iyengar, Pappanad, P.O., Tan i\frs. V. Manoranjitlham, Women's Asso jore Dt. ciation, Virndhunagar. Shrimati Chella.mmal, c f o S. Srinivasa )Irs. K. P.M. Telakat, Virudhunagar. Iyengar, PaPIJlanad, P.O., Tanjore Dt. Mrs. 1\Ianickavasagam, Member, Taluk ·Mrs. H. G. Stokes, M.A., (Oxon.), Ron. Board, Snttur. Presy. Magistrate, Madras City, The Mrs. P. G, 1\Iuthukrishnan, Vaidhya "Grange, u Adyar, Madras. patty. Shrimati E. ·K. Janaki Ammal, M.A., Shrimati Padmavathy Ammu.l, Municipaf D.Sc., F.L.S., Professor of Botany, Sidha Vaidya Dispensary, Vii-ud H. H. The 1\fnoharaja's College of hunagar. Science at Trivandrum; Edathel House, Mrs. D. Lakshmi Gurumurthi, B.A., Tellicherry, N. Malabar. Madnnapalli. C. Meenakshi, M.A., Research Scholar, Mrs. Sarah J. Souri, M.B., B.S., University of Madras, " Mangala ::IIadanapalli. Bhavanam,'' Nungumbaukum, Madras. :Or. Alice S. Chorley, Mission Hospital, Miss Dora Gream, B.A., L.T., Y.W.C.A., Madanapalli. Mayo Road, Bombay. 1\Irs. E. Harris, 1\Iadanapalli. , Dr. Jerbanoo E. Mistri, Banoo Mansion, llfiss Ohandravathy Royal, B.A., B.T., Cumballa Hill, Bombay. Mission Compound, Madanapa.lli. Miss J. A. Baker, Principal, Ewart Mrs. Grace Sundarayya, Mission Com-· School, Madras. pound, Mndanapalli. Shrimati L. S. Chinnammal, Zamindarni llfiss Violet Sundaram, Mission Com of Goundamapalayam, Salem Dt. . pound, Madanapalli. Shrimati B. Manomani, H. M. Shevapet, Miss Jeya Paul, Mission Compound, Salem, . . . . . Madanapalli. Shrimati S. Bakkiam Sathi, H. M. Bris Miss Cinderella Solomon, Girls' Schoolr palayam, Salem. · Madanapalli. Shrimati B. Kantby Ammal, Head Mis· Miss Z. Souir, L.M.P., C. B. M. ·Hos tress Girls' School, Ammapet, Salem. pital, Vuyyur. 78 MINUTES OF BVIDBNOE TAKEN BBFORB SUB-COMMITTEE C 29° J ulii, 1933.] [Continued. Mrs. Padma Sanger, Saidapet, M":dras. Mrs. Nagarathnam .Ammal, Virudhuna- Miss N. Sourie, B.A., Madanapalh. · . gar. Mrs. T. B. Devasahayam, Agadtha Mrs. Valli An.mnl, Virudhunngar. Street, Madanapalli. . Mrs. Palani Ammal, Virudhunagar. Shrimathl K. Muthalakshmt, c£o Mr. Mrs. K. Amirtham Ammal, !Member, Krishnaswami, Dy. S. P. Madanapalli. Women's Association, Virudhunagnr. ShrimBti Indira Rao, cfo S. R. Rao, Mrs. R. Sithalakshmi, Member, Women's Esq., I.F.S., District Forest Officer, Association, Virudhunagar. Cuddapah. · Mrs. Thirunavukkarasi, Virudhunagar. Shrimati Sumitra Rao, c/o S. R. Rao, Mrs. A. Annamalai, Virudhunagar. Diatrict Forest Officer, Cuddapah. 11~. Avudaithangam, Virudhunagar. Shrimati C. Visalini, Forest Bungalow, Mrs. A. l\1. Bedford, Sundar lyer's Anantapur. Street, Chittoor. . . Shrimati M. Yamuna Bai, Madanapalli. Shrimathi Jll. Indirani .Ammal, c/o lll. Shrimati Kamala Bai, c/o S. R. Rao, Ranagaswamy Iyengar, 'Vakil, Chit District Forest Officer, Cuddapah. toor. Shrimati Y. Sakuntala. Bai, C/o IR. Mrs. Chengal Row, Surya Vilas, Chit Seshagiri Rao, Madanapalli. toor. . Shrimati Savitri Bai, Madanapalli. Shrimathi !M. Subbarathnamma, No.· 1, !Mrs. B. Panchanathan, Madanapalli. Sundaraier Street, Chittoor. . Shrimati R. Sona. Ba.i, Appa. Rao Street, Madanapalli. Shrimati G. Parvathi Ammal, No. 2, Sundaraier Street, Chittoor. Shrimati R. Susela Bai, Madanapalli. Mrs. E. Kalappa, Surya Vilas, Chlttoor. Shrimati K. Krishnaveni, cfo R. Ses- hagiri Row, Madanapalli. Mrs. K. Singh, c/o Mr. K. Singh, Chit Shrimathi Thungammal, Madanapalli. toor. Shrimatlhi Sundara Bai, Madana palli. lllrs. E. Krishnamurthi, Surya Vilas, Shrimati V. Subbamma., Varahgiri House, Chittoor. Berhampore, Ganjam Dt. Miss A. V. Easter, Teacher, B. T.· Com- pound, Chittoor. · Shrimati V. Raja Bai Garu, Varaha giri House, Berhampore, Ganjam Dt. Mrs. Nawamonie Paul, Cbittoor. Shrimati G. N. Saradha, B.A., L.T., Shrimati Vijayalakshmi Bhai, Secretary, Chittoor. _ Mahila Samaj, Berhampore, Ganjam Dt. Bhrimati Manchu Bashini Ammal, c fo C. Venkataramana lyer, Advocate, Shrimati D. Bhramaramba Garu, Joint Chittoor. Secretary, Mahil& Samaj, Berhampore, Mrs. S. B. Tambe, M.L.C., Member, Gaujam Dt.. Provincial Franchise Committee, Nag Shrimati A. Lashmi Bai, Varahagiri pur, Central Provinces. House, Berhampore, Ganjam Dt. · Shrimati C. R. Jegathambal, President, Librarian, Mahila Samaj, Berhampore, Women's .ASBociation, Villupuram. Ganjam Diatrict. Mrs. Streenivasa Raghavachari; c{ o Sbrimathi W. Sundaramma, Digomurti Streenivaaa Raghavachari, B.A., L.T., House, Berhampore, Ganjam Dt. 1st Assistant, High School, Villupuram. Shrimathi M. Rajeswaramma, cfo M. Mrs. Arumuga !Mudaliar, c/o Mr. Veeraraghavaswami, Subedar Peta, Arumuga Mudaliar, Vice-President, Berha-m pore. Taluk Board, Villupuram. Shrimati D. Lakshminarasamma, Digo Shrimati Sitalakshmi Animal, cfo Dy. murti House, Berhampore, Ganjam Superintendent of Police, ViUupuram, Dt. . Mrs. Manickam, cfo Dr. Manickam Mrs. P. T. Lakshmiah Naidu, Indian · Pillai, Villupuram. !Medical Practitioner, Virudhunagar. Shrimati Saraswathi Ammal, c{o The Mrs. M. Joseph, cfo M. Joseph, Sub Headmaster, High School, Villupuram. Registrar, Chinnapallivasal Street, Shrimathi Rukmani Ammal, Secretary, Virudhunagar. Women's Association, Villupuram. Mrs. P. John Joseph, C.M.S. Parson Mra. Venkatesa Aiyar,. c{o Mr. P. S. age, Virudlmnagar. Venkatesa Aiyer, Pleader, Villupuram. Shrimathi Gomathi Ammal, Veterinary Mrs. Sambamurthy Aiyar, cfo Samba Hospital, Virudhunagar. murthy Aiyar, Strotriamdar of Mrs. R. Sivagami Ammal, Virudhuita gar. .Kakuppam, .vmupuram. Mrs. Gundu Rao, cfo U. Gundu Rao, Mra. Avudai Ammal, Virndhunagar. B.A., Pleader, Vffiupuram. OF THB JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 79 29° Ju-lii, 1933.] [Continued. U\frs. Ranganatha Iyengar, cfo V. Shrimnti Ganga Bai Kelkar, Kadri, Ranganatha Iyengar, Pleader, Villn Mangalore. purnm. Shrimati Jnjala Parvathamma, Kovur, Shrimati Ponnnrengam Ammal, Lady West Godavari Dt.. Doctor, Villupuram. Shrimati A. Manorama Bai, Falnir, 1\frs. Ebenezer, c/o S. J. Ebenezer, Sub Mangalore. Magistrate, Villnpuram. · Shrimati K. · S. Shantha Bai, I. M. Mrs. G. V. Desikan, c/o G. V. Desikan, Sevashram, Mangalore. B.A., B.L., Vakil, Villupuram. Shrimati S. Krishnavenamma Garu, Shrimati Thiruveni Bni, Member, Ladies' Kovur, West Godavari Dt. Club, Villupurnm. Shrimati Saroj Bai Nivas, Ksbema Vilas, Shrimati R. Lakshmi Bai, Mistress, Attavar, Mangalore. Taluk·Board School, Villupuram. Shrimati M. Sundari Ammal, Attavar, Shrimati Paripura.ni Am mal,· Medical Mangalore. . Hall, Anandasramam, ViHupuram. Shrimati M. Chandravathi Bai, Attavar, Shrimati Kamala Bai, Member, Ladies' Mangalore. Club, Villupuram.. Shrimati P. Sita Devi, Attavar, Manga-. Shrimati Rajambal, Member, Ladies' lore. Shrimati C. Kameswaramma Garu, Club, Villupuram. Kovur, West Godavari Dt. Shrimati N achiar Ammai, Member, Shrimati A. Kalyani Bai, Attavar, Ladies' Club, Villupuram. Mangalore. Shrimathi Padmavathi Ammal, c/o Bani~ Shrimati Koorella Lakshmamma Garu, tary Inspector, Villupuram. Kovnr, West Godavari Dt. Mrs. U\fuhamed Khan, cfo Mr. Khan Shrimati B. Devaki . Bai, Attavar, Mohamed Khan Bahadur, First -class Mangalore. Magistrate, Vi!lupuram. Shrimati N. Devi Bai, Attavar, Manga Mrs. B. A. Jnganatha Mudaliar, cfo Mr. lore. B. A. Jaganatha Mudaliar, Villu Shrimathi Jajala. Seetbamma, Kovur, puram. West Godavari Dt. Miss Olivia De Cumhe, Vice-President, Shrimati N. Sundari Bai, cfo N. G. Women Graduates' Union, Bombay. Suvarna, Old Rent Road, Mangalore. C/o H: H. The Prince of Arcot, Amir Shrimati S. Sulochani Bai, Old Rent U\fahal, Madras. Road, Mangalore. C f o H. H. The Prince of Arcot, Amir Shrimati A. Seethamma Garn, Kovur, U\fahal, Madras. West Godavari Dt. Begum Humnyun Mirza, San Thome, Shrimathi M. Leelavathi Bai, Sea View, Madras. Court Hill, Mangalore. Mrs. Yakub Hasan, cfo Yalkub Hasan, Shrimathi Parvathi Bai, New Street, M.L.Q., Madras. Mangalore. Begum Hamid Khan, c/o Hamid Khan, Shrimathi V. Bashkaramma Gam, Kovnr, M.L.C., Madras. West Godavari Dt. Begum Azeem, c/o M. A. ·Azeem, Bar-at Shrimati E. Peralaksbmi Garn, Kovur, Law, Judge, Court of Small Causes, West Godavari Dt. Madras. Mrs. M. Parvathi Bai, c/o M. Shanker Shrimati Koraprolu Subbayamma Garu, Rao, Vakil Mangalore. Kovur, West Godavary Dt. Shrimati K. Varya Bai, cfo K. Devadasa Mrs. 8. Ananda Bai, President, Mabila Nnyak, Vakil, Mangalore. Sabha, New Court Road, Mangnlore. Shrimati K. Mukta Bai, c/o K. Appaji Shrimati Parvathi Bai Manjeshwar, Rao, Sturrock Road, Mangalore. Secretary, H. V. Manda!, Mangalore. Miss F. M. Saldanha, "Sundar Bagh," Shrimati P. Leela Bai, Court Road, Falnir, Mangalore. Mangalore. Shrimati Kalidasu Krishnamma Garu, Shrimati Singavajjala Sangamma Garu, Kovur, West Godavari District. Kovur, West Godavary Dt. . Shrimnti Y. Hanumayamma. Garu, Kovur, Shrimati P. Ra.ma Bai, Court Road, West Godavari Dt. Mangalore. Mrs. J. H. Saldanha, Falnir, Mangalore. Shrimathi H. Si~hamma Garu, Goods Mrs. Winnie Vas, Belmont House, Man Shed View, Mangalore. p:nlore. Shrimati Jajala Sangnmma, Kovur, West Shrimati U. Chandranana Bai, c/o IDlal Godavari Dt. Sanjiva Rao, Sanyasigudda Mangalore. Shrimati H. Sarojini Bai, Goods Shed Shrimati U. Bhavani Bai, c/o IDlal View, Mangnlore. Gopal N aik, Snnyasigndda, Mana;alore. 80 MINUTES OF :&VIDBNCB TAKEN BBFORB SUB-OOMMI'l'TBB Q ·. · · 29" Julii, 1933.]. [Continued •. Shrimati U. Sitha Bai, c/o· U. Shan Shrimati W. · V. Satyanarayanamma . tharam Rao Sunyasigudda, Mangalore. Garu, c/o· W. V. Sarm& Garu, New Bbrimati Y. Ramayamma Garu,· Kovnr, Military Lines, Berhampore. . ·. West Goaavari Dt. · · Shrimati W. V. Snry& Bai, c/o W. V. Shrimati Y. Prasanna Ramayamma, G. K. Gokhale, ;New Military, Lines, Kovnr, West Godavari Dt. ·· • Berhampore. · Shrimati S. Lakshmiramakamma Garu, Shrimati G. Sivnk~nathamm& . Garu, Kovur, West Godavari Dt.... , Member, · · Berhampore • , Municipal Shrimati Nagar Kalyani Bai, Snnyasi- Council, Berhampore. . . . gndda, !Uangalore. · · · · Begum Ahmed Ali Sahiba, c/o Ahmed Ali Shrimati Swarnamha, Rama Vilaa, Civil' Sahib Bahadnr, Collector, Ranipet. : Lines, Bellary. ' Begum · Mohamad .Ali . Sahiha, . c/o Bhrimati Sreepadba Seshamm& Garu, Mohamed .Ali Sahib Bahadnr, Deputy Kovur, West Godavari Dt. •· · Commsaioner of Police, Marshalls Road, Bhrimati V. · Dhora Venkamma Garu, Egmore, Madras. · . . . Kovur, West Godavari Dt. Begum Jameel; c/o M. S. M. Jameel i>hrimati K. Saraswathi A.mmal, Rama Sahiha Bahadnr, Currency .Officer, 6, Vilas, Civil Lines, Bellary. . Monteith Road, Egmore. Shrimati T. Rajamma Garu, c/o Dr. J; Begum Noorullah Sahiha, c/o Noorullah Naraaimhaln, Bellary. Sahib · Bahadur, Police Quarters, Shrimati G. Adi Lakami, No. 2, Sun Teyuaznpet. . darier Street, Chittoor. Kubra Begum Sahiba, Joint Secretary to Shrimati Sivudu Seelilamma · Ga.rn, the Madras Presidency Muslim Ladies' Kovur, West Godavari Dt. · Aesociation, Madr&B. · Shrimathi R. Mahalakshmi Ammal; Thahara Begum Sahiba, Head Mistress, Kovur, West Godavari Dt. Corporation Muslim· Girls' · School, Shrimati Chitteri Venkatarathnamma; Thrnvatiawuanpet. · Kovnr, West Godavari Dt. . Rahmatt Unissa Begum Sahiba, .Super Shrimati Sagaram Somidhavamma Garn, visor, Corporation Muslim Girls' Kovur, West Godavari Dt. School, Madr&B & Hon.. Secretary & Sbrimati A. Soolochana Bai, cfo R. Rama Tre&Bnrer to the Madras :Presidency Rao, Cfiittoor. • . Muslim Ladies' Association, M&dras. Shrimati Lakmanarasamma Garu, c/o I. Mrs. M.A. Wahab Sahib Bahadur, Mer Sh~hagiri Rao, B.A.,. B.L., Pleader, · Cbtttoor. · · · · · · chant, " Manga Mundi," Triplicane; · Mrs. J. S. Kannappar, c/o J. S. · Kan Khader UniiiBa Begum, Head Mistress, nappar, E Razia Begum Sahrba/Head· . Mistres&: Shrimati~'T •.Sundai'F"Bai, ·.New Field Corporation, Muslim , Girls' · School: Street; Mrs. M. · A.rulammal, Machado, .oom. 1\Us. ~ J'oaeph,, North Cotton !load; pound, Sivan Koil, . Tutic:Orin. · . . • : · Tuticorin~ ·: .1 . " 1' ,_. Mra.-:.Arthur, North .(Jotton &&4, l'uti" 10, Appa Mudaly Street, Madras.·· . · oorin. · f! • ·' , ., . • . 1, Begum· Sahib . Street,o Royap&ttah( Mrs. Lily Thnugiah. . Chatrant . Street,: . Madras•. ·. · .· . · • · ... Tuticorin. ' ;'l · • Kahmur Unissa ·Begum, 31/32, .Peters' '•,'' ·-. /. .. : ~ .. ;.. ' Road,, Madras. ,., .. r· :: .. ·- ..... , I.,· ..... MIDIORANDUM 43•. ON CERTAIN QuEsTIONS AFFECTING 'rHE STATUS AND : WELFARE OF INDIAN WOMEN IN THE FUTURE CONSTITUTION OF INDIA, R4NDED IN BY MRS. P. K. SEN.; ,. . . _ Introducti~. ··· Taluk Boards: but.almorl all ~f th~m have L w..,, the unders;g,ed,' w'ome~ mem.; been returned for seats Teserved ·.for hers of local bodies, such as Municipsli- women. From figures that are avail- ties, District Boards and Taluk Boards, able now - learn that but of these 200 desire tO present thi.J Memorandum to 1DotnMI. on local' bo 29.0 Jvlii, 1933.] · .· .[ Oonti11.ued. · viDcial Legislatures to deal w-ith at some grea• importance to women ·of those. future and .uncertain date. We are em-• special! franchise 1Jua.iification& as pr~ ; phatically . opposed to this ··suggestiuu .aa • !Poeed by the Indi.aD F~anchise Committee, we eonside:r. that the claims of india's and to state that W6;will be Conteat with • women. to; political · status · and · rights no proposals which -eDiranchise a· smaller ; should be dealt with · at the. same time proporti01t of women, , . . . .:; .. : · ... , ; ..., aa· those of the Nst of India, and berort>' th& Bill· for theo New Jndi&lr CollStitution · Suggested e11./ianchisemeni. of all. women ' is finally drafted and presented to Parlia . over 21 in urban areas. . ·· . .,. ment. · The new Central and Provincial 6. We ar<> a ware of the suggestion : I-:gislatures ·will have many pressing ques made by some women's. org&ni.sations to tiOns to deal with,. and the questions increase the wpmen'a vote., by_ enfranchis- · affecting women and their status will be ing all W<>men of twenty-one and. ov~ c!'>w!led oaut, · unless 'CS.Ildidates for· ei...,_ living in urban areas. We would have: t1011 .are :responsible to; a .womftJa ·vote. no objection to this scheme were it in : too.. oonsiderable for. them to dare to addition to the special gualification for_. ignor<> it, but the women's vote undl!l""' :women of tbi>" huaband'.s property qualifi-:C the . p'!"esent nominally equal· franchise ;.. cation recommended by th<> Indian Fran•; 1 :;10 in our province of Madras,. and ig; chise,-~ommittee. and the WI_>.ite_ Paper;: very· much lower in other provinces, e.g.;· but we understand that this enfranchio8-' i!l•Assam·.it is 1': 114 (para.. 204, Cliap.' mentr -of urban women voters has. -beeJ!o.: VUii !Wport .of Indian Franchise Com-· suggested as a mbstitute far. the hus-: mittee). , : · ; · "" . • ~ · . . . band'a property qualification, and to such • _ • .•. ' -. ' : I . a substitution we are totally opposed, as. Special /ianchise quatificatiiini !iw women it must reault in an unequal and unfair . • · ~pported in. , this M emo.-a..dunk · . · distribution of voting .strength between: , 5. The~<> ~ene;al conriderations •the;.,.· women in. 11rban and in l"llral areas. As .. fore make us support the ·special franchise &ducation is more adV&nGed ill. urban. qualifications for -women proposed by the than .~- .rut:al areas, more :.-onwn will. 4dian: Franchise (Lothian) Committee come on 1ihe ..I&ctoral rolls under· the, for: the Provincial Councils.. • · · . · literacy . qualification· in urban than0 , (a) an educa#ona!. qualification :Of in : rural areas. To this literacy · . ; :~are literacy._for women. , · ·. .... : qualification which itself favours women· .• , ,. "(b). ~eing the wife of .a man who. in mban areas, · it is . proposed ' te w· possesses the property · qualification add a. ~pecial qualification. giving adult, "' prescribed foi the existing councils. franchise ,to women in towns, a qualifica- . The Committee estimated that under tion whiCh :will: only benefi.t women in, ~ese proposals the numbm:,.of. -women, mhan areas, :while . at the same. time· enfranchised would ·be approximately,~: abandoning the husband's property quali-. . .(a) Own .property . qualifi- fi.cation . which. wo.ul!l have enfranchised . . ·. cation , .••• . , •.. 1,929,000 . . women:in.rutal·as well as in urban areas..· (b) Literacy ,qualification ,1,26.5,0QO ..• All students of Indian Economics ·and . (c) Husband's propertJI' . . · .. • r Politics. ihave. emphasisemen to men voters would. be. of the- hanchise to awaken them from· only ·as 1·: 11 in thia -province and. con-' their presenil atate.of civic inertia and tor siderably smaller in other provinoeo, W a raise their .. general atatua. It is, mor..., wish, therefore, te• elnphaaise the very· over, especially ill rural areas, that. thAW 20116 Bll 290 Julii, 1938.] · . · [Continued •. pt'esslll'6 of an adequate -~en's "Vote_.~ ' the same · edui:ational · qnalifii:atiori ·for needed to increase the proVlBIOD of facili- ·. men• and women, · and that qualification . tiea for education and medical help and 0 is :a · very ·high one in some ·provinces, gen~rally ·to improve· the social _conditions . e.g.; in Bombay, Bengal, Bihar and · of life for women iii villages.·. We have • Orissa educational qualification for women as the the,efore,. that this conditi9n should not number of women who .would come on the be prescribed for women, and that·the ele.ctoral roll would. lie nry ·small, _and recommendation' of the Iudian' Franchis& advocated bare literacy as ,the educational Committee on "this' point' ·should be qualiJicatioJ!. for them for the first election adoptsd as' being fair and . reasonable. to .the Federal Assembly. (Chapter XX, If; however; this proviso is iusistsd upon~ para.. 409.) _The ;number of women voters :we 1vould urge that to· compensate for :will surely be sinaUer Still when the .educa tl!e · probability of a smaller number of tional qualifioation is · as high as · the women coming· on the· roll, the husband's 'Matriculation Standard •. We would refer property qualification should be extended to the remarks of the Education· Com~ to· the . wives of aU men qualified .under mittee .of the Indian Statutory Commis the future property qualification, instead sion (Chap. VII, para. 7 of their Report) of merely to the' wives of men possessing that the disparity and the growing dis the property qualifications prescrib&d at parity between fhe fig'ures for· boys and pre•ent for the rrovincial councils. girls increases .as 'we go ·up the educa tional ladder and that th• number of boys Special ImpOrtance of As•embly J!ranchi3e in~ the high schoo! .tage (preparing for to Women. · · matriculation) i8 34 times a& great a8 the ... . -- . number of girls: This high educational 10. We would like to emphasise that qualification will, therefore, surely lower though the White .Paper ooutaius pro the ratio of" women to men electorS below vision for reservation of seats for women oven its present inadequate figure.· for the Assembly, this reservation of seats . . ·. . '· should not be cousidered as in any way White Paper Proposal for Application to a substitute for a womeu's vote large the Ref:uminu· ()fficer. . .. enough to demand oonsideration from 9. The White Paper· further ' modifies candidates fOr. the Assembly. Questious the proposals of the Indian Franchise such as marriage and divorce, !ldoptiou, Committee by adding a proviso that the cnstcdy and ·guardianship of . minors, claimants iu respect of an educational ·:wills !Uld succession, will under the pro- . qualification, or of property beld by ·a posals of the White Paper be ooncurrent husband, will be required to make appli subjects for• Provincial . and . Central cation to ·be entered ou the electoral roll legislation_ As these are qnes~ions on to the Returning · Officer. The Iudi1111 which the views of men and women may 'ffi'ranchise Committee suggestsd •this con differ, it is ·essential that the members dition only in· the case of women :who of the Honse of Assembly, ahould be were not recorded :as literate in the edu responsive to a large women's . vote, if oational reoords, and not of aU women the views of women are to have a fair who would be qualified unde~ these chance of -inllnencing legislation on these. special qualifications. The· exact effect subjects-subjects :which all will agr..,. of this proposal • of the .. White' Paper ·are of the most vital and particular con- cannot be measured nOIW, but we fear -cern to. Indian women. · The attentiorr that numerically it will be very serious that these questious are likely to receive · indeed. One of the main reasous for this . unlesS there is an 'adequate women's vote fear is that under existing social condi was demonstratsd when a motion for · tions ou India· this proviso will press the referenoe to a Select Committee of a . more severely on women than it would bill to secure a share for Hindu widows . on men voters for social disabilitieS such in their husband's family property 1vaao. 811 purdah may make it difficult for negativ&d by the legislative Assembly o~ qualified women voters to fulfil this con 4th February, 1932, Other similar ·in- dition. Also women qualified to. vote stances can be given, and had the mem may not realise until too late that under bers of the Assembly been ans:werable to· this new regulation they are obliged to a . large women's vote such neglect of make an application to the Returning questions · of · peculiar importanoe: to Offioer before their names are entered on women would not have occurred.· In the register. The only eff~ct of t.his pro view therefore of the· special importanoe viso must be to decrease th& women's of the women's vote for the Federal vote and ]OIWer its proportion compared Assembly, we wquld · urge ·that :women to that of men and thus to diminish the shculd have for that Assembly the same effect of the spacial qualifications f!Jr qualifications ·of literacy and of the women devised iu order to mitigate the husband'& .property qualification as reoom preseut disparity iu nmitbers between mended iby the Indian Franchise Com men and women voters. , We would urge, mittee for the ·Provincial franchise. · ' .) ·, - .- 29° .Tulii, 1933.] . : ''[Continued. ·llepe tr...t J~t Select Committee ·mau qualifications will ' be · · reqlli~ in modify Whit~t Papth' Propooal~· for members ••. Under the preoent qualliiea· - - W omeA'• Fronehile. · · · ' tion for election to the OouneU of State \ •' i · U. We are glad that the Briti6li the number of women-who wonld be quali Government have elearl,y stated that the:r fied · to ata.nd · ia infinitesimal, and we :" full,y appreciate the· imparta.noa of a would urge that if these qualilications are Jarge wo111en'a electorate. and are veey to be continued for the new Federal anxious to """ure that the propartio11 of Upper Chamber; 'some modification in ;women electara shollld be adequate " and .them ahonld be made for women candi-. .achnit that further consideration of the dates. If new qnalifieatione are to be eubject m"i)J be· neceasary. We do mast prescribed we wonld urge that these nEIIr ..earnaatl,y hope that the Joint Select Com qualili.cationa should lbe snch aa to secure mittee will bear this in mind and that Oil the eligibility of • oonsiderable number 'careful consideratian of the arguments we t>f women aa candidates; have urged for the necessity of enlarging In thir, oonneotion we would draw the women's electorate, they will :revif.e ~attention to the significant fac:t that in the Government's propoaale. .81) aa to spite of a strong demand from. wamen1 the enable women to have a share in both the Council of State has not yet erlended the 'Federal and Provincial electorates more right to vote or sta.nd for eleotion even in proportion to their number and their ·to those few women who _poesesa the exist importanee tG the country.· " ·; · ,, -.·. ·• ing high qualiflcationa. · As praotical ex 12. ·we are aware ·that under -adult perience on legislative measures affectin$ women baa shown that this body ia ex 'Bllffrage the proportion of men and tremely .. reactionary in ita attitude to -women voters wonld be fair and jnat bot -we do not conaider it probable that adnlt women we are. natnrall,y anxious that the -franchise will be introduced at once owing qualiticationa to serve on this body should to administrative dillicnlt;es. · ·we; ·there · be such &II to make it poasible foi- edll cated ;womeli ..to _stand ~or election •.. , ·, fore, urge most strongly that if the Joint . . Select Committee are unablo!' to ·recom ,Btatutory/ l>ecTarotion '· of · Women•• mend any form of adnlt BUffrage, they ' . Equalitv in Civic Bight•. will not B6k the WOIIIlett of India to be satisfied with any smaller meBBUre of ,: ~ l4 .. This· disability bring~~ home • ~ . ~ franchise than that Tecommended for ~ importan!l& of. a Statutoey declara them by the Indian Franchise Oommittee tion safeguarding -women , from ., .dil for the Provincial legialatnrea; while in .. abilities imposed on theut aa wome11. in view of the special ·importance ·of the . the eseroia& of ci.vic rights, and we would . women's 'VOte for the Federal Assembly urge that a clause stating that men aiM! we wonld respectfully and with' all ·the · wo111en haYe fnD .~rr..;!i(:IJ;.Wibh rsgardo'.to iwoQISII's. fr.m.. -t&-oor 'v~-~ 'W&- have had prae C'hise we would urge :-.. r: •.. _,:: ,.._,:_.[ tical experience of administrative w&Fk on ,. ::.;,,.;. ·(a} l'orl.·the'·P~oVitt;,.raf.' il~~.,J;. 1Leta14Bodiee.'l ,(:;,1!...' ..... ~;;.J J.~ .• 1 . ~ b!ies: .,,, __ ,,J_ ...Jl:.~-j- .: ,_ ·-··~ : .•.•..• ~ • • • [ • ' . ' r - • - •. 'I' I • •· I I ~ ·• . ~ ' . . ;Signed_,bJ; ,~~ f~J1'iJI&:-:'!...... ':, .• , . (~I P~operty .. !>Dd; ed'ucatfonal C. L: N arasamma .Gar.uy •Anantapv Dis &a• • ~ · ·qualifications the same men. . .. ~ Boanl, AIIBiltaptu, '-., • , c . c, (2) Spe~T ~iteracy (!u.a.Jifi.,.. Ratti Pillamma Gam, Taluk . Board, . . . , , tion ei hare . literacy... . , · _; Dharmal'aram. ·"' · ·•. ·• ...... -: · ' ' ·· '· (:j) Special" qualliica.tl..ll 'of Venkata Narasamma Garu, Talnll Board, . . · , )>eing th&. wif<> of a·lllllD having : Xadiri,~·: ,.. :.:_~ ·.- .. :. 1 .... · ·. · ·.. · ' · .. a specific ·prqpeity" qWilifi.Cation. Kanniammal, North Arcot District , ' ... . A . woman on~',pJace.J. _en: ~ · .. Board, · V ellore. , · •· • - · · · · · · · roU in respect.. ol this quailiica- Balambal, Nflrih;; 'AI'OOt. ·· District Board, ..... , -tioa- to ..contiJl'l,e. to. b8 .o,.· the VelloN.;; ;'~ 1YL~.JJ .. -;'•·;f.:.; ,·· .. ' .. . . roll 'during widoiv!wo4- . '>·: . Muniammal, Taluk Board, Gudiyatham . . • Note.~In: tlles'e ~we slJw>o:rb the meom: Mrs. . Julia· • Nathaniel, · TaJuk· Jloard, mendations of th& Indian Fr1111chise .. V'ellore'.: · ... ! :·.... ,·:. ' .Committoo and declare• .that we will 'lH · M:uniammal, 'Muiricipa.l· ··Council, Vel- .content .ioith. flO'· BmalJer ~on·• of lore. · women voters .tha.,. 1;h.ev• llavi· reeum 1\fr&. J. Nathlllliel, M~ber, S&cend&rY m~nded~ ·- · -'~'" L i.j' ,_ u .: . ' .·. ··1' ..: . 1• .: . Education Board, . Municipal Council, :. - ' . ~,.. ' ... ~ ·Vellore. · ' -~: · ~ ~· ...(Paras. 5, .~ ,and ·1 ol ~ memo.) ~ Krishnaveni Ammal,; South Aroat Dis- (h) For the Fedt:'Gl A.&rembZy: : trict Bmml, · Csddalore.1 . • ' . (1) lrli~ same 'proiperty and . 0. Amirthammal, South Arcot Dist•ict educational qualification as :for . Boa.td, Cuddalore. ' . . . ··men .. · '·: ·. -.- Ethirajamm~tl, ' Taluk Doani, . Kallaku ' (2) ·· and (3} The same special richi. qualifications for wo"'en as those Krishnaveni · · Ammal, · Taluk _Board, prqposed · for· · th& Provincial Villupuram. Assemblies . end· stated above. . . :it. Pattammal, Taluk Boani, Tirukoyi- - .. · ' -. ' ' ' ~ lur. .. Note.-Ii'or reasons ·airea~ &xpiained Navs..iitha Ammal, Taluk Boani; V,rid · and in view of :the special importance of , dachalam. · . an effective women's :vote for thia,.Assem Mnt. IM. · E'. . Feriero, Medical l'ra.,_ bl;r,. our proposals differ "from .the mare tioner, Municipal pounci!•. Cuddalore; restricted franohise rooommended for Krishuaveni Ammal, Muntclpal C)>unCJl, women by the Frandb.ise Committee Villupuram. · · ... · · ' · · ' (Paras. 8 and, 10 of this 'lllemo.).. · · ·,: • M. Sundari Adappa, · ·soutlt Canara Dis Note on (a) and (b):- With regaro to trict Doani, Mangalore. the special qualification" for (a) and (b) Shambhavi R. Punja, · B.A., Secretary, we would draw your attention to Para. Mahila Sabha, Member, District Edu· 9 of thie memorandum. ·• ·· · · 1 · cational Council, South Cansra Dis· (c) For the Upper Ol!amber; trict Board, Mangalore. N. Lalltabai Snbbarao, Vice President, The qualifications ihould ·be Mahila Sabha, and Depressed Classes ,_,, such as .to secure the eligibility Mission, Member, District Educational of oon.siderable ,, nmnb&l' ." of Cotincil, IMnniclpal Council, Mangalore. educated women (Para; ,18 of this : ' Lazarammal, Chingl&put District Board, memo.). . .. ·• • · · · ' Chingleput: · · · · ' 16'. In conclusion we •wish ltci: at&~ Bhagirathi Sri Ram, Theosophical respectfully that our experience ali ~em 1 l:jociety • Adyar,: Chingl&put District bers of Local• Bodies and our elllpenence · Board, 'Chingleput. • of electio!'•• hae .impressed OJ;> ;us the S. Rajarathnam,. .!l.'aluli Board, Chingleo neci!SBity of an . adequate women & vote, t:puibt,:) r.~ .. -i-·~-;..: r,_. '·; - .• if questions affecting w<11_11en a~ 1tt' have C. Kannammal, Taluk Board, Conjee- given to them the ·attentiOn the~r 1mpor• -:Writ/ "'"' JJ. ,'•. ,· . .:JJ:J··· ·: j .,, - tance to the ~untry dmnands: , We hav~, KupP&mmal Taluk ~aPd, Tiruvallur. therefore, felU impell~d ld pree!"t th•s 0 Mrs. llenn:r:· TahrYr. Boa~ •. SlridliJ!et •. Memorandum em.bC1'1Ymg . oar . V18WS '! J;.. _Subbalaksmr. ::· ¥nntc•plll ()ounc1l, women; li franchise,- line!: w& ar91 confi~ent Saidapet. ' .. '· ' • ' ·· ·' that you will attach the greater wetght • • · (Oontinuod• . Mrs. Rajarathna.mt .Municipal CounciJ, l1L ·. Narayani · · Amma,: Taluk ·.:Board, . ()hingleput. , 1 • , Kottayam.--: · .,. ! ·.. ···-c.:· D. Laksmi Gurumurti, B.A>, . Chittoor :'l'. Kalya~kutti ·Ammat. ~aluk Board, District Board, ()hittoor. . . Calicut. ,· Mrs. A. M:" Bedford,·. Chittoor· Di.strillt K. !Madhavi Ammal, Taluk Board, Ernad. . Board, Chittoor. . , . .. ·, . . E. · Ammalu Kovilamma, · Taluk Board, V. Pappan.ma, Taluk. Board,_• _Madan!'· · ·walluvanad. . · . palle. ;_ . ,. . • ., ·. . . . P. Ikkali Amma,. .Taluk Board, Ponnani. K. Peddamuneimuna, . , · Taluk· . Board, ,E. Narayanikottyamma, Municipal Conn- .Puttur.. - i t . •. -,.•. _ : . ~il, Calicut. •' · • . T. Chinnammal, Taluk Board,·. 'l'irut- K. P.' Narayani Amma, Municipal Coun- ·ta.ni. . "' .. J. .: • • • • •• • . • cil Cannanore. '· · ' . . !Mrs. A. M. Bedford, Registered .Medi Mrs. L. G, Barnard, Munictpal. Council, cal Practi Lakshmi Ammal, Taluk Board, Kulittalai. Tuesdq,. I think I.weuld ra.ther make Ponnammal, · Taluk Board, Udaya_r- JD.Y stateme!lt then. _. . , . . palayam. , , ...... ~ . . '" .~76. Yo11 appreciate that our hope is Ambujathammal,'. · Municipal · Council . - ' . ' ,that .JOur detailed examination .mq be S r1rangam. _ . _ _ . ___ _ taken this &itemoon P-Yes. _. . . . i V,enkataramanamma. Tenneti, IMlember, . (:476. -And. if you think that tbere is District Educational Council Taluk sufficient ..in the Memoranda to enable Board, Vizagapatam. · ' . · _the suiHlommitte& to .carry out that de Pesapareddi.. Sithamma; ;l'aluk )Joard, tailed exami-nation, then I agree that BobbilV . . .. · you abould_. make . your statement only ·_Pedda, Munna · Bayamma/ · Mu~icipal before the mai-n Committee1-If you · Council, 'Tirupati.. would permit me to say a. few words Mathusri Janakammal, · Taluk _Board, about ihe Ma.hila Bamiti I would like to Madurantakam.· .. do so. · · ·Valia 'Thamburati 'Avipro, Kovila.kam; . C477.,P~aseP-The.Mahila .Bamiti is a '' MDilikhana-holder>·Taluk Board, Wallu ~ccessor_- tq. the Women.'a organisations . · vanad: -- ·. - · ~~' which were started and carried on in. Pedda Munns : Bayamma, -Taluk lloatd, Bengal since tha early eighti-es .of .the . Tirupati-. • · • .tast centu!'Y, through the effort of pioneer Mary . ·Manickav&sagam~ Taluk ·Board, workers. It was founded i-n 190.5-, -and ;:. Sattui-. ·. • · ,...... · . · has gradually extended it!~ ..ctivities.. STimati Gnana - Velu, Tal)lk ·Board, Although its :work is mainly intended for Madanapalle. - .. Bengal it has brought Bengal into eon P. V<1nkata Subhamma, !Municipal Coun tact with various other parts of India. "i cil, Bezwada. · -- ·. · '·· · .·•·: - In 1908 this Bami ti organised a Confer G. Ponnammal, Taluk Board, Ramnad. · enC'e which -was· presided !)ver by Her G. Vengamma, Taluk Board, Gooty•• · . Highness . .the· . Maharanee of Baroda. S. Krishnammal, Ramnad District Board, This Conference IW&S attended by repr& Madura, , _ . · ~entative women numberi-ng over 000 from B. Krishnammal, Taluk Board, Siva- Bombay, · Madras, Punjab, the Central ganga. . . ; .. Provinces, . and other . parts uf India. A. R. Ramakkal Ammal, Taluk Board, About 1914 it further extended its activi Coimbatore. ' ties by raising funds and sending young A. Venkata · Sitamnia; ,Kistna ;District women students to England for further Board, Kistna Dt. . _ .' . "Studies and trai-ni-ng. For this purpose Gadhe Kanakavalli Ammal, Guntur Dis a .Branch Associati011 · was formed i-n trict Board, Guntur. London called the Indian Women's Edu Seetha Bai, Bellary 'District . Board, cational Association lVhich exists here to Bellary. · the present day, and is doing useful S. Thayammal, Municipal . Council, work. During the Great War the Bamiti ·· Madura. stirred the whole of Bengal by organisi-ng M. Kannu Ammal, Taluk Board, active 'work i-n dilferent centres for the Trichinopoly, plll'p ·.Indian Franchi.~!§ (Jonmiiitee yisite ., · .·, ~-=Chainttan..-; ·· '·· ., !.: :·:-·'· though it bears hardly on the men 'bears " C493. Mrs. 1 Mukerjl, · I· ·-Tatlier' thib.k .wen -more hardly -on the woii19Jl r....-.Tbat y/iri.' Wish to .say a word or two btirore 'the :is: more in the ·bands of the ,medical general·. examinatiOn' . beginsl'.-.(Mrs, aoaoc:iations. But maternity· :work :we J(ukerji.) Yes, ':!; wish· to say that· have distinctly taken a great lead in. under We have_ baby clinics all. aver Bengal, ~hf :women, such .. as tlie W cimen;S: Union out mill< and give" food to children and which ihas tried. to bring forward in the ·to see to thei,:- medical -requirements if · Council the Immor8.!.. Traffie. Bi!( . We 'ttley ·STe ill or sick in any w1fy. They want to havei it passed .all pve~ ' India. ·gi..., · them · medicine' and 'see to their It has done great work in that way. We medical ·requirements. We have esta~ have got. over 2,000 signatures including lished centres for th1t' ·last 10 yeam C504. Have you any fnrther sta.te them in educating them· and raising their ments which you desire to make ~-It was sta.tus generally than it is to the women only regarding these organiSations, and in the oorban areas. In the nrban areas I think yout Lordship has heard enough they have already got a special qu!'lifica,.· of that. · tion regarding literacy because. m the villages . you would not get so ·many Miss Mary Pickford.· literate · women. . They . "have already C505. I understand that you h":ve beon that advantage in the urban districts, ssked to represent also· the ladies who and· if another special qualification of have sent 29° J ulii, 1933. J Mrs. P.·K. SBN and Mrs; L •. MuniUL. .. [Continued •. C512. I suppose it. would be taken far lleca.use you· have them already. That is granted in ·India ;_as .weJ}: 8s il\ Englend tha. cpief point.... __ ., ._ __ tha.t a husband may influence his wife's, . . vote ·and a .wife influence her husband's. MisS .MlJII'i/_ Pickford. . , . beca.uae they would :inlluence each. other's-- C018. I want W ~ you _~ -q~estion idea.s?-Yes; certainly. . .. · _ about the reservation of seats. Even ' C5ls.· BU:t woUld.' you ·iiay ·tha.t ·a v;,te with -&_jairly large IWOJilen'8 franchise do given on the husbarid's property quali-· you think that without re6Brvation it will. fications would be a }..., independent vote he' likely under· present .circumstance&, 1;~1\n that given_ oil some other qualifica-· that many women· would be elected .w· tton ?-'-The same argument was used even general ooustituenciee ·in competition with in ·"this country; when· !Women first got' men?-(Mro. P. K .. s .... ) No. Iil the their votes op. the ·husband's. pr'1P"rty Madras memoranda -the ladies say they qualifications, ·but since the vote was· ha-.re . had experience of etanding · for giv(!n·: ;r have: heard' from, ladies· who election· and that it_ would be· im;possible Worked during_· those 'times and they say for women· to get on to the seats unless; that it madil ·no difference to them. I they were reserved seats in the beginning. · think it would be the sa.ine'in·India, and · C519. They ·~ive soni.e ~gures to prove' even If it had some influence I do not 6Be that which ·we need -:not quote because· what hlirm it could· do. ·(Mrs. Mukerji.): they are in the memorandaP~Yes. (Mrs. M'ay ·I put forward 'a point? I do not M,.kii;i.) It is quite impossible for them' see.!>ow the qualifications would influence' to get into the ropes of these elections the' idea· of the vote: If the wife got the which are very_ knotty and tricky in the vote ·on her own merits, she might be very ·beginning. You mllSt give them a· just as much' under the influence of her few _years. · hueba_nd. · ·_ . . · . ' .C5J4; You recognise that it may eXist, C520. As it has been difficult for them. but it .may p.ot have anything to do with to get on local boards where the fran the electoral qualifications ?-1 do not see chise-is •very_ extended and women have how it would. · ·· - · · · · · · a large number of votes, · it would -be more diffioult to get on· to the local Conn-, Mr~ M. · R; Jayaker. ·. · .'. .cils and on to th'! Federal .Assembly?- Yeo.· - · . - C515. · That is an. argument ·againSt giving votes. to '!rives at allf-No; .l,do. -·cs21:. Therefore, you do att.sch impor- not see that.. · : · tance to having seats reserved for women .C516. I 5ay · the 11rgument · would .hi! so that ·:women· may· ·be able to-·expresa 11gainet giving the wife a vote-if she is. their points of view?-'-(Mrs. P. K. Sen:) influenced?~I.I!m saying it is not against Yes, jmder the circumstances. (M-rs. it,. ·but it does not affect the vote. M,.kerji.)' May I add a point that ouly for one electton- &rid 8ubjedt to change .· Dr. B._R. _4mbedkM.: at the nerl election: ·. · C517. Quite· soP-We are trying to get C522 .. Only .one eleCtionP-Because one a strength of vote of the women. We election carries you 5 yeari: Supposing see,-by the statistics; that the number of in 1!hose 5 years, we are able. to staJ>_d on women with· independent property quali our own .me.rits, we ought_ to .he give'! fications !is· much lower than that of a chance. of doing so .and. if. we find we husbands because in our country, accord~ are not.- ablS: to stand on·:.,ur. merits we ing to the new law of inheritance, the can abide by ·that for another election,_ women do not inherit equally with the but 5 years is a long time. Jt sh'buld men. · ·Therefore, nat11l'Blly, th~ ind~ be only time for us to get intQ the'''~~'~ pendent property qualification -ie much and· the working· of Jt,- , , , lower with women. Therefore; we· want ' C523. It would· be one election ouly, to get 11- strength. of vote in order .to pro -would it not-6-;YeataP-'-It. would' .be a gress a.U the. '\11omen's causes in- India; good thing to· give us the ot~tion 10f. the because, then, we can ·be in touch with· one election:, . . ~. . . . ',,,._ .. 7 •• -· ~ • \ the actual laws pa18ed. If we lio not oi.O.rrman. ··· .. ·' take advantage :of .this how shall- .we get . the. strength of. the vote,. because: the . C524. That. is. ~he. m11ol'im~m statutory figures. show that under the husband's period; it might conceivably be shorter, property · qualification .the figures • are _,u accidents· happen in·' the r best--. of adopted to. I! great extent -in . Madras• regUlated• families "P-It wcnld:not be I neea not put .the ilgurBif before:. you shotteri than ·4 years; wodld ·it L . , ' · - 94: ·· MillmTBS OJ! BVIDENOB T.UBlli. BBFOBB' SUB-OOMMl!l"l'l!ll "(J 29° Jvlii, 1933.] Mra. P. K .. BEN and Mrs. L •. MUXBan. ~- {Contimud::: -: ..c .. :' Mr-. M~ R~ Jaflll/c,.. : are. any recorda in Bengal whi C543, My question was restricted solely educate th~ women for what they had to to the qualifications, and I .wanted to ask faoe later on." Some iorm of direct elec you whether· you had any· other -sugge~ tion is · what we -would prefer, . and., I tiona to add to Proposal No. 27, of the think that proposal that the capital town White Paper?-No; I have· not:; :{Mrs: should be the .constituent area and women MukeTji.) :May r suggest somethillg, and from all over the . Province .. ,.ould · be that is to give educational qualifications; allowed to "!'and, Jo~ . election is a pro not of a very high standard, but some- j>osal which apreals -to. us .. Under tha~ thing like upper ;primary P · ·' 1t .would be taken_ by rotation. That C544. 1 wonder· if you ·would refer to would :be . reaDy mtuili' inare satisfactor~ paragraph 7 of Memorandum No. 43 from than: having indirect election; · Madras. This memorandum says that the .. 0555.. You think it would be the best Government do not· give any figures fJll inethod?-J do think so. · _ state reasons for arriving at the r..tio of · 0556. You were asked just now by lli. l to 7 as a figure?-(Mrs, ~-· K. -B•n.) Butler abou~ the qlla!ifi.cations for the Yes. · . . . .., ' Upper Chamber .. · ·The qualification for -C545. Perhaps H ·would. help you if I a member .af.. th... UpJ(er. "(lh1101ber i•, first !'old you that the gross :figure that we of all, a property..,qJlalilication.?-Yes. . • have calculated is a figure of -one w<>man · C557. Secondly, he must be a member to 4.8 .men-that is the actual ratio grossP of..another Legislature, a Provincial one -That is the actual ratio? or a Federal.one?-Yes.. · - . .. •., 0546. Yes. The gross-before you allow 0558. Or must hold any special quali" any deductions for· overlapping ?-There fication. conferred. for distinguished puiJ;. would be a large number of deductions. lie services?-Yes. . . . C547. That is why ;r am giving yon the C559. Those are the three qualifica ,explanation :which is asked· for in this tions?-Yes. . . . ' · .. memor.andum, and I can give you actually · C560. You think that would rule out the figures, if you des4"e, 11pon which it ii great many.women?-Yes .. There would is based ?-"(Mrs. P. K. Sen.) It gives 1 be very f~w, in fact none, tbeT~~ because in 7 here. . · · · many of them have not got the property C548. i may explain to ·you the gross ·qualification;· and_ in _the case Of . he other fig.ire is 1 to 4.8, hut when you llave two' qualifications they do not s!)ply to allowed for the overlap of the different Indian women at all. . . 'qualifications you arrive at the figure of C561. What I would like you to state, l.to'. 7?-Yes, I. think that is what. it is .. if you could, is .what additional· 'loali~ca- · 0549. Do you not ~egard l to 4.8 •BS. a 1iioii you snggest?-Lit~~raoy and-matrlclf gross figure as being more satisfactory? ·Jaiion 29" .TUlii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. BEN and Mrs. L._MUX!Ian. [Oontinu~d. eense is also needed. · A ;Young woman · : Cs7S. ··no· you meiui some for~ of elec who has . very high qualifications .would tion by women. or by genera.! electoratesP not be as capable as· a!' older woman who .:....No, by general electorates. . (Mrs. L. baa had experience '!f i!ocia.l · ..'!rk but Mukerji.) From each Province,· I should baa n,ot the advantage of · academica! say-an . "Open election' not· chosen from qualifi.cat~ons.: · · · the Provincial seats in· the Cou!lcil. - C565. That commonsense - must. be ' Ohainnafl.: · ·. . brought home to the other members of the Upper Chamber, otherwise that C574. l)irectP:-Yes: · · , commonsense is no good.at.all~-Bnt our Mr.:F. S. Cock1 •. statistics show that. .the .. ch1ef women . workers have ·not &cademical qua.!ifi.ca C575. Yon· say in your memorandum tions, and therefore you would shut them that women in India have always been out from these posts if you put . on a free· from communa.! differences P-Yas. yei-y high qua.!ification. C576. Could you expand that a littleP Do you mean to aay that women in India •· · · M.r. M: B: J aflll]oer. · •. have never been interested very much in • C566.- .Amo~g th~ ;who are at prese;,_t the differences between the various re 'prominent women workers for the ligionsP-No, I ·do not think so, really. Tbey have had _no ·communal di.fferences women's cause how _many have acaden~ti 0 cal qualifications, speaking in. the _lan so far. They .are: united on that one point at least. In any work. that we do ·guage. of percentageP.,-Very few. I ~an not speak in percentages. hut certainly in any of the Provinc.,_.nd I have the .percentage is less than ·oo per cent. worked on varioua bodies-we do not find this communal question coming in at all. · C567. You apprehend ·that by setting C577. Ia it confined to the menP-So up aoademical qualifications pf that k~d far, I think. It might .penetrate, I -these. women who have been pioneers 1n think, to women also, but we do not want .the movement would be shut ouH-Yes.· it. : · · C568. Which would be very disastrous P Sir Hari .Singh. Gour. -Yes I think so. There are·very few C578 . .And it does not penetrate in a of us 'who have academical qualifications. good many men eitherP-In Benga.! we Mr,.F. s; Cock•. had a representation to the Governor from the women there, and there were : C569. Would· you be in ·favour of the women of all types-Gnjeratia,. Muham wife of the man who had property qna.!i madans, .Hindus, Marathas, Parsees, and _fica.tions for the . State -Council being Bengalis. I am a member of at least eligible for the State Council P-(Mrs. six or seven associations in Calcutta, and P; K. Sen.) :Yes, I think so, because their the communa.! question. has never oome in, social statua would ·be the same, and I ,think that would be quite fair. Mr. F. S. Cock&. C570. Have you any views u to how C579. Yon feel no rivalry or enmity in they should· be eleCted to the Council of that respect ?-Rivalry . in ordinary cir StateP-WeJl, there are no reserved seats cumatances in life but not communa.!. now, and since in the White Paper you are giving reoerved seats in the Federa.! Ohai..,;.;.,.;· Legislatures and the Legislative Council, C580. How do you account for that factP there should be reserved seats in the Can you aocount at all for the 'fact that Upper Chamber also, becanee ·here it is ·the conununal diffEU'&noea are. much less most ;important · that women should be to be observed in the caae of women than represented. But . it is very difficnlt to in the case of men P-1 think because the say the numbers.-,-.! do not know what communal diff'l!'encea come. in. the pro the proportion should b-but we want .fessiona:. It ia in the rivalry in .profea at least some reserved oeats there. aional qualifications that they come in · C571. The Governor-General has power and the· men stick to them; but we have to nominate 10 members to the Upper not any profesaions, and no rivalry so "CbamberP-Yea. far. has be>en prod:uced-we haye not . C572. Would yon be aatisfied if" it wa.a ·come in contact with the idea at all. ·said one or ·two· out·. of the 10 should be This oommunal idea . comea in when you women P-No, I. ·da not think· we would · come jn contact with .. the rivalry for 'like that at all~not· without· some fol'lll . posts in public positio11a or' in profes ·of an election-oome kind of election :sional occupationa. : 'fhat ior naqally the would be much better. : ·point where· ·the "oommunal' idea cornea • OF TEE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INbiAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM 97 29° Julii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. SEN and Mrs. L. MUKERJI. [ Conti1l'Ued. in and one considers there are· so many matter we have the -support of all M_uhammadans and so many Sikhs. -But parties ?-That is so. w1th. women not having to go for that, the 1dea never oomes in- at all. · Dr. B. R. Amobedkar. 0581. In ·your experience do the com 588. Is it to be inferred that these munal prejudices arise in the case of communal differences would very likely boys in the home ?-No, I do not find it spread to the women if the women were so at all. to enter the professions ?-(Mrs. L. 0582. About what age in the- case of Mukerji.) I do not think so. I think boys does the communal -prejudice begin that woman by nature is free f•om such to show itself? Is it when they leave comm una! feelings on account of her sex. the home?-! think, dec;dedly, when they 0589. For instance, to-day tbe struggle enter into their professions. or scramble for jobs and professional . 0583. That is yoll,l' strong impres appointments is really confined to the Sion ?-That is my strong imp,ressionl. men?-Yes. There. is always something . common 0390. Largely, because women in .a.t1u1a touchmg the case of women which brings are not earning membe,rs of the family? .. them together, and they never think of -I quite see your point. oommunal ideas. I have worked along 0591. 'l'herefore, to take the case of side with Muhammadans, . Hindus, education, if a large section of :women Gujeratis, and when there is rivall'y for along with men were entering that pro -some post in _the Association, such as fession, and other professions as a office bearers, the cOmmunal idea result of education, on your own analysis, honestly has never· oome in at all. perhaps the thing would develop among women ?-It is quite possible. I cannot Mr. M. R. Jayaker. answer that point until :we see the result. _ 0584, Do- not they come in when the 0592. I appreciate that, ·but I just young child 'is sent to the communal :wanted to put the point to you P-I feel school or college?-Yes,_ that is wby we in a future time, when _our women MFill are ~o much against the communal be in a position to go into the professions, school, but on going to the Hindu that the communal business might die · school, I do not think the children think out altogether. I anticipate that. really about the communal idea-as Dr. B. R. Ambedkar.] I !hope so. mothers, we must say so; I think, 0585. If a child goes to a Hindu 0 haiTflWl;l>. college or a Hindu university, or to a 0593. You think women have more Muslim college or a Muslim university, common sense than men?-Yes, I honest(y does it not become- tainted with com munal ideas by reason of the isolation think so. from the general community springing Begum Shah Nawaz. up P-1 do not think so. In the case of 0594. They are supposed. to be " the a child of that age the p.rofessors do not better half " ?-One of our poets, writing touch on these points. It is only in in the fourteenth and fifteenth century,_ struction that is given. Until they begin to go into the world and think of these said: " Women are bo_rn diplomats ". social distinctions, which come from Chairman. going into the world, acoording to my experience, I have never found a child 0595. Well, I must preserve complete has touched on communal differences in impartiality on thatP-Men have ad his speech or in his conversation. (Mrs. mitted that women are more intuitive, P. K. Sen.) ·May I supplement that? and if you are more intuitive, you aot We in fact -passed a resolution at the on your oommon .sense. Men are more All-India Conference, asking for the likely to base their arguments on facts, doing away of these communal insti b'!t women will go on their intuition and tutions. The women are ve,ry much I think that all goes in :with commo'! ·against these oommunal institutions sense. we do not want them. Chairman.] The great advantage of acting on intuition is that you cannot Begum Shah N awaz, be proved to be wrong. 0586. Is it not· the fact that the Mr. Cock&. 1 WO.man'a movement is international in: 0596. I will not pursue that point, but "its outlook all over the world?-Yes. 0587, Is it not also a fact that in ·this does what you say as to· the comparative· I 20116 98 · MINUTES OF BVIDENOE 1:-AKEN BEFORE BUB-QOMMITI'EE· Q · 29° Julii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. 8BN and Mrs. L. Muuau. [Continued. immunity of :women from communal Ali, and they entirely agree with you differences apply to sueh questions as that communalising is the bane of Untouchability?-Yea; so fe.r women have nationalism and must go. They are not accepted Untouchability as it is because in favour of any communal electora~P you must understand that Untouchability -(Mrs. P. K. Sen.) Quite so. apraog up from hygienic principles. The C602. You agree :with them so fe.rP Untoucha.bles usually led unhygienic lives Yes. and, therefore, :we had to isolate them. C603. I see from your memorandum We aooepted it as a tradition, and, that you differ from them on this point, generally, because of hygienic principles, namely, that yon want the avife to have all these Untouchables were isolated. the husband's qualification and SCI can Their profession& were rigid then, but, go on the roUP-Yes. · ... ! · eince they are not so much tied to their C604. They say we do not want tile profession&, the Untouchable idea will wife to have the qualification of the hus also die away, I think. band, but Bhe should go on the electorate roll on the strength of hBI' own qualifica Sir Ha.ri Bitlflh Go.u-. tion P-Yes. . · •: C597. Untoudlability is a heritage of COOO. That is one point on which you law ?-But there waa the hygienic prin differP-Yes. · · · · . · " · ciple, too. 0606. That is the only one on which C598. As those laws have been relaxed, you have any real difference with them, Untouchability is going?-Yea, ·but the otherwise you entirely agree with them P chief idea was that, if a man had to -Yes. •. ". deal with unhygienic things, we did not 0607. That is a point of detai!P-Yes.' like to bring him into the home and let 0608. What you really :want is a larger him toudl anything. Often he would be vote for women. It does not matter how · dealing :with refuse, and, naturally, even i~ is got-that ;, jjhe only question 'be- women when they have children and want tween you on thatP-Yes. · · ·.,·. ' them to be sanitary and clean did not C609. And they also want a larger 'vote like them to touch him. But it waa on for :women. It doas not matter how it no other ground. It waa based on purely comes, U.ongh they have a prejudice hygienic principles. Now that we are against the wife getting a vote upon her having sanitation and all modern methods husband's qualifi.cationP--{Mrs. Bel'.i . and ideaa of cleanliness, we feel that this T~at is quite right, but as I have already idea of Untouchability :will die out, It said, we have aleo got a disinclination to leaving out the rural areaa~ 'IOU not due to any prejudice from the women's point of view that there were Dr. B. B. Ambedkar. any restriction& in the matter of Un touchability. 0610.. Tbere is just one · quesiion 'I would like to aak you, Mrs. Ben. · You Mr. Ooclu. haxe explained your views with regard to · C&.KJ. Would yon say with regard to the representation . of women in the legislation affecting women and children Federal Lower Honse, and you have that India is not so advanced aa many stated your objection to tt.e provision other countries in the West P-I think so. mad'! in the White Paper for indirect . 0600: Do you think that such legisla election P-yea. . tum. Will not have much chance of being . . C611. I do not find anyw - .... J OP THE JOINT COMMI'lTEB ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REPORM 99 29° Julii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. SEN and Mrs._L. MtTI!l!an. [Continued. " General," Madras, out of 162, 6 tailed -provisions 188 to how these eix women; Muhammadan, 29, including one seats in M&dras are to be filled are not woman. This is all the provision that found in the White PaperP-Tbat would exists in the White Paper, so far?-We be a joint electorata of men and women P would like to do away with all these com 0621. I do not know, At least Mr. munities, if you would give us six seats Butler might be able to enlighten us as in each of the Provinces. That :would be to ho:w these six seats are going to be much better, and we ehould be able to filled?-(Mrs. MukeTji.) We do not, if it fill these seats with the best women can be avoided, want any communal available. distinction. 0610. Have you any other method by Dr. B. B. Ambedkar.] I quite fOllow which these six seats could be filled up? you. I am o&sking y'ou :whether you ·-Yes; capital city, for the Federal wonld be prepared to moderate your Assembly. I !have already answered that . objection, to this extent, that you would question. It :would be the same for the have a joint electorata with one seat Provincial Assembly also. The capital reserved, so as not to disturb the oom city would .be the constituent area; it mu.nal balance. would ·be a small electorate. It would Mr. Butler.] I think that Dr. not l)!ean so much expense, and women Ambedgar w:ill find iliis a.t IP&ge 91, para from all over the Provinces would be able graph 8: " The precise electoral machin to stand for the seats. ery to be employed in the oonatituencies 0616. You would ha.ve one capital city for the speoial women's seats J4 still ·to return six women in MadrasP-They under considmation." · · :would have their separate seats. Dr. B. B. Ambedkar.] Therefore, I 0617. The quesflion I wanted to ask was asking whether these seats wonld be was how far you agree? 1Wjould you be filled by separate electorates of women !Prepared, ·as a matter of concession to in the general constituency; it is not the communal sentiment of the various made clear here. I do not knOIW how it oommu.nities, that :while making arrange is done, because I find in the Table ments on the basis of a joint electorate given on IP&ge 93, seats allocated under for the return of suoh women in the separata heads. Under "General," six Legislative Oou.ncils, to have a permis women's .seats, under " Muhammadan,, sion reserving a. certain number of seats, one; tlhat rather gives me the impres for instance, for the Muslim womeJl, tlion that you wonld have a sepaJrata keeping the total the same?-We are electorate of Muslim women only, so that against reservation. the result would be that 28 would be . 0618. I can quite understand your men -and one a woman. I do. not know ; , objection to having a separate electorate I se~k for information upon the point. of Hindo. women to return five Hindu Chairman. w:omen and a separate .electcirate of ·Muslim women to return one Muslim 0622. I think we had better use this woman. What I want to know is this: afternoon in getting information out of .Whether you !have also the same objec the !Witnesses. Will you return to the tion to a system in which both the pointP-(Mrs. Sen.) It would not be at Hindu women and the Muslim women least a separate women's electorate. would vote together in a common con Dr. B. B. Ambedkar. stituency- joint constituency, :with this reservation, that, at least, one seat would 0623. If left to you, you might give be reserved for a Muslim woman ?-They them all the six, pr more ilian that? Quite. :would all vote for the Mu'hammadan 06'J4, I mean, in view of the -fear that lady. there may be none?-Yee. · 0619. I know that you would probably be so generous that you may give more. Mr. M. B. Jai!Jaker. Would you ·be prepared to RIPProve !l ()625. Do I take it, Mrs. Sen, that reservation being made by law that just your objection is 1i9 a communal reservar one should 'be reseawed for a Muslim tion of women's seats on ilie basis of w:omanP-Yes; that is already there, and qommunalism, as also to a. communal we have to accept tha.t. electorate? Is that soP-Yes. 0620. That may be on the basis of 0626. And that,. even if the election separate electorate, it is not atated how was made by a joint electorata of Hindu it would' be. Therefore, I wanted to get men and women a.nd Muslim m'!" and your opinion on ilie ma.tter. The de- :women, your objection would · be the 20116 K 100 MINUTES OF EVIDENOE TAKEN BEFORE SUB-OOMMlT'l'El!o 0 29° Julii, 1933.] . Mrs. P. K .. SEN .and Mrs. L. MuoJUI. [Continued. same if the reservation ;was in favour 0636. Therefore, it is the opinion of of a' Muhammadan woman on the basis women wIio are already enfranchised P of her caste P-Xes; we do nat wan~ it. Yes. 0627, Even if the electorate were joint C637. Have we the opinion of women between the two oommunitiesP-No, not who have not been enfranchised, exoept if it were joint. through the wives' vote? Has any such 062S. If the electorate ;was joint, opinion been ascertained by some tangible would you agree to the reservation of methodP-Yes. We have had experienoe one or more seats for a Muhammadan in the rural districts, and they ;would be manP-Yes, we ;would agree to that. quite prepared to acoept that. 0629. I am asking you, because in the C638. Then you go on in that l[)&ra morning evidence was given and the Wit graph to oay that you want some method nesses &> 29° Julii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. SEN and Mrs. L. MUK!!an. [Continued •. C646. But do you think that that pre Marquess of Lothian>. sents any difficulty in the machinery C656. How many husbands will mention about the wives' vote?-(Mrs. Sen.) I do the wives' names?-They are all allow 29° Julii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. SEN and Mrs. L. MuKEan. [Continued. on paper, but, of course, the constituency come on to the electoral rolls, and, as you does not mean a very large number of and I are both aware, most of these com women from each Province. munities are vying with each other in C665. Is it not the fact that there are voting strength; this would mean that the sub-Committees of the All-India Women's women who at present are not enjoying Conference working in almost all the dis their rights of inheritance in other com trict towns, that delegates are elected munities, could get those laws altered if who· go and take part in these sub-Pro that vote is not given to them just vincial or Provincial Conferences and because they happen to be the wife of the then Delegates are elected who go and voterP-I do not think there is anything take part in the annual Session which in that. 1 think that if we have adequate is held in every year in one Province representation in the Legislatures the or anotberP-Yes, that is so, in theory, women themselves would be the best per but I cannot say that it is done in all sons to alter the laws. Some of the social the Provinces. With regard to Bengal, reformers like Mr. Jayaker and Sir Hari it was purely from Calcutta; they got Sing Gour have tried their best to reform ten members to be Delegates; none from the Hindu law, but there are many the districts, even from Ea~t Bengal, obstacles in the way. It is not only which is a very large constituency. East because women will be on the rolls on the Bengal bas not been represented at all. husband's property qualification that this C666. But have you only one con objection might arise. I thinl!: it is more stituency working in the whole of Ben likely that if the women are there these gal of the All-India Women's Conference? laws would be easily changed. ~There are supposed to be three existing C671. Would not the orthodox members constituencies, but, in fact, on!Jr one is be compelled to give the women their wllrking. rights of inheritance if their getting the C667. It is not so in my Province, but vote depended on their having a property I shall not press the point aUJy further. qualification ?-I do not thinl!: so. I suppose you are aware of the objec C672. Supposing that the Joint Parli._. tions which the women in these organis._. mentary Committee could find a feasible tiona are putting for:ward against the qualification :which would give the woman wife's voteP One of the objections is the vote in her own right, you would have this: That it is the quality of the vote no objection to that qualification being that matters to them, far more than accepted P-No, certainly not, if some anything else P-Yes, we are aware of other method could he found which is that. better than the wife's vote we would have C668. That they want the vote to .be no objection. such as would raise their status in life, C673. Am I right in concluding from and getting the vote through their hus your evidence that you accept the pro bands would not help them to raise that perty and literacy qualifications recom statusP-Yes. We have balanced both mended by the Lothian Committee, and these proposals, and we find that it yon are also prepared to accept the wife's would cause very great injustice to vote for this transitional period, as one leave out the rural ladies. That is our wou'id call it?-Yes, that is so. only reason for supporting the wife's C674. And it is your demand that 1.he vote-one of the main reasons. minimum number of women voters that would be acceptable to almost everyone Mr. M. R .. Jayaker. in the :whole of India is that recommend•d C669. Can I say that you regard this by the Lothian Committee both for the merely as a question of sentiment and Provincial and Central LegislaturesP that their• status when connected' with Yes, that is so, except that we have pro their husbands' property would be posed a little more in the Federal Legis lowered?-Yes, I think so, to a certain lature than the Lothian Committee has extent. proposed. We want for the Federal Begum Shah Nawaz. Legislature a little more than for the Provincial Legislatures .. If it is impos C670. The is one other objection sible we should have to fdl hack on what Mrs. Sen, that the majority of the,.; the Lothian Committee has reoommeded, women feel that if the wife was not given that is to say, 6,620,000, but any number the v~te just because she happens to be which is less than that :would be quite the w•f~ of the voter, then some of the unacceptable. w~rnen tn 10me of the other communities w ere they are inheriting proplll,"ty would C675. You are aware, Mrs. Sen, that we have many women's organisation~ iJ;L OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL RE!fORM 103 29° J u!ii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. SEN and Mrs. L. MUKEan. [ Oonti1111led. my country, some of them working in great as has been suggested in evidence? Provinces alone, others are All-India -Yes. Associations like the All-India Women's 0685. And that, by one means or other, Conference?-Yes, I am aware of that. the wife's name could be obtained?-Yes. 0676. It is a fact, is it not, that none C6_86. What amount of difficulty do you of these organisations have sent any re thmk there would be in actually polling presentative over here to give evidence women P Will they require women officers before the Joint Parliamentary Com in the polling booth and separate en mitteP-Yes. trances, or do you think that will not 0677. None of these other organisa be the case ?-Separate entrances would tions, I meanP-No, they have not. be necessary, I think, in the beginning, 0678. May I know why, when it was and perhaps one :woman to help. That decided by the three All-India Women's :would be quite enough. organisations to send certain elected re 0687. You do not think, from vour ex presentatives, your organisation, which perience, that the actual business of poll happens to be more or less confined to one ing women voters who want to come and province only, decided to send a repre record their votes will create great diffi sentative to give evidence hereP-Yes, culty? You do not think the fiscal prob but, although I am representing only lem of polling the women voters, if thev Bengal, these two Memoranda represent are not more than, say, one in 'five, wiil the views of a large number of women be a very formidable problem P-I do not from Madras; they also agree with us, think it will be. As matters are pro and then I can speak from personal know gressing at the present moment, I do ledge, because I have :worked quite a not think there will he any difficillty in great deal in Bihar. The women in Bihar the polling. would be quite agr!)eable to accepting the C688. Have you "had any experience p...:... wife's votes. I personally have not had, but Mrs. 0679. Is it because you feel that the Mukerji attended a polling booth, and wife's vote perhaps is the only feasible perhaps, if you wanted to know, •hE< could qualification at present by which yon can add to it. (Mrs. Mukerji.) We had a get a large number of women voters, that municipal election at Calcutta some years you decided to send a representative ago, and it was organised by women, and hereP-Yes, that is so. I think it was very successful, and we 0680. You would agree with me, would got more :women than :we anticipa.ted to you not, that if there are to be reserved come there, and even purdah women. seats for women they should be given to There was a larger number of purdah them in all the Provincial Assemblies as women than we expected. well as in the Central LegislaturesP C689. Did you make any special Yes, certainly they should be. arrangements in that respect ?-They had C681. There should also be l"eserved purdah arrangements for the purdah seats in the Upper Chamber, as vou said women to come. just now ?-Yes, I have said that. C690. Were the polling booths manned 0682. You are against indirect <>lection by wom>en polling officers?-Yes, they to the Legislative Assembly, that is to were manned mostly by women. say, the Lower House, are you not P Dr. B. R. A.mbedkar. Yes, I am against that. C683. One of your objections to that C691. Was there a woman can 29° Julii, 1933.] Mrs. P. K. BBN and Mrs. L. MUXBan. [Continued. in the forefront of the women's move C69S. Really you have not considered it ment and social reform wonld not, in very muchP-No; :we have not considered practice, find their way on to ~he elec it very mnch, becanae we did not think toral roll P-Yes, if a high educational it wonld serve any usefnl purpose. test was applied. 0699. But you do not aee any objection Marquess of Lothian.] The White to it in principleP-No, not in prin Paper proposal. ciple, but if it does not enfranchise quite Sir Hari Singh Gour. a number of women we do not see the use of it at all. C694. If the educational tolSt for Ohainnan. women is the same as for menP-Yes, that is true. C700. Just one question: In the rural Marquess of Lothian. areae of Bengal which yon know best do C695. You think that the dillicnlty ltle women go to the market town P-(Mrs. wonld he removed by the literacy quali Mukerji.) Yes. fication. That would, in practice, bring C701. Does that constitute an oCcasion all the women who are actively engaged which has been used or might be used in in social and public work on to the roll P order to prosecute political activity -Yes, most of them. amongst womenP-1 think that might. Miss Pickford. yes; on a market day you would get the women. Nearly all the women do attend C696. A auggestion hae been put for the markets in the villages, and that avard for enfranchising the pensioned would he a good idea. widowa of soldiers who were killed in tho War, and also the wives of men :who will C702. Rae there, in fact, been any he voter• under '!he Military qualifica political activity amongst women of the tions that is men who have served in the rural c188se8 in Bengal in the rural For..;.. Haa that suggestion been areasP-Yes, there has been some. (Mrs. brought to your notice, and, if so, would Sen.) Yes, quite a lot. (Mrs. Mukerji.) you like to make any observation on it? In the vernacular paper they seem to be -Yes, it baa been brought to my notice, in touch with all the political movements, but it would hardly apply to the Indian sometimes even more than the town women at all. women yon find in some places. C697. There would he very few in Ohoinnan.] Thank you. We are very Bengal ?-There are very few in Bengal, greatly obliged to you ladies for helping and also in the other Provinces. · ua this afternoon. (The Witne•••• are diTected to withdraw.) (2!116-(2)) WL 1121-Pe 18l!8 1000 7/SS P. SL G. '86 SUB-COMMITTEE 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE SUB COMMITTEE C OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE ON INDIAN CONSTITUTIONAL REFORM Die Sabbati, 29° Ju!ii, 1933 LIST OF WITNESSES. PAGE All India Women's Con ference; Women's Indian Association; N a tiona! Council of Women in India. Rajkuma.ri A mrit Kaur and Mrs. Hamid Ali 31 Mahila Samiti Ladies' Associa tion. Mu. P. K. Sen and Mrs. L. Mukerji 67