Gretchen Jackson

SHAW: What other things were there? I never saw them and

[Julie?] never set any others along that stretch of

Washington Street.

JACKSON: We had the elevated, overhead elevator. We had --

well, we had a Spanish (inaudible) there. We had a

furniture store.

SHAW: (inaudible)

JACKSON: Yeah. More than that, we had another one (inaudible)

my furniture. [Gold Flakes?] furniture store. Gold --

that goes way back. And then you had the Dudley... I'm

going up near Ferdinand's, across from there, we had H&A

Smith, what's the -- H&A Smith, and then we had another

department store.

SHAW: Yeah, Timothy Smith.

JACKSON: Timothy Smith.

SHAW: And Dutton's.

JACKSON: And Dutton's, that's it.

SHAW: And you had -- there was a Woolworth's on the corner

of Ruggles Street.

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: And across [00:01:00] the street, there was a Blair's

Supermarket.

1 JACKSON: Blair's Foodland.

SHAW: And there was a Kennedy's butter and egg store.

JACKSON: Stores, everywhere, and they were lovely.

SHAW: And there's also two movie theaters.

JACKSON: Yes, we did.

SHAW: The Dudley and the Roxbury.

JACKSON: And then, you had a black gentleman from 38 Williams

Street named Mr. Thomas Gene [Skyler?] who owned Ruggles

Street Hall. He was a gentleman of color. A very fabulous

family, and that's how I met Dr. Jackson on Martha's

Vineyard island, they had a home there.

SHAW: And how did you know them?

JACKSON: Through my mother.

SHAW: Oh, through your mother.

JACKSON: And father, they were friendly. I will tell you this,

I had a brother that fell out of the window when he was a

baby, and injured his brain. [00:02:00] My mother

travelled all over the world to find a doctor who could

operate on his brain to help him speak. She came to find

places up here in Massachusetts, and some friend of Mommy's

in New Rochelle, New York introduced her to Mary Skyler.

And they became friends, and my mother brought my brother

up here to see if the institutions up here could help here.

When she found Dr. Williams' shop in Germany, he came and

2 operated on my brother's brain from here to here. And his

first words were, ["Getchy?"] that's how I got my nickname.

SHAW: Getchy.

JACKSON: He couldn’t say Gretchen. He never spoke until the

surgery, and he called me Getchy. So, my whole early

childhood was spent with him. And on Saturdays [00:03:00]

and Sundays, Saturdays I'd take him to the movies. All

day, you could stay at the movies all day for 10 cents in

those days. And then on Sundays, we spent the whole day in

church, he loved the church.

SHAW: Which church did you attend?

JACKSON: Bethesda Baptist Church in New Rochelle, New York.

SHAW: You're related to the [Clifford?] family, West Point

Fillpin, are you not?

JACKSON: No, I'm from the Clifford family, but my grandfather

was -- we were related to that movie star, Jason Clifford.

That was my father's, father's brother. But he was a very

down-to-earth Irishman. He was fabulous. He taught me how

to put up my dukes. No racial bigotry, nothing. He was a

[00:04:00] real fabulous -- and the woman that he married

was [Jedd Black?]. I remember this, I lived long enough to

tell you. And he was fabulous, and he says, "Never mind

your mother, she's (inaudible) society. (inaudible) you're

going to learn how to fight in this world," get it? That's

3 an interesting experience I had. But that's how Mommy met,

and we got to my brother Robin and got him some care, and I

stayed with him until I got married I took care of him,

went to school.

SHAW: Where?

JACKSON: In New Rochelle, New York, the best schools in the

world. And was in the spring frolic, and that was quite an

honor, if you're a good student. And my brother and I

appeared in the spring frolic of New Rochelle school, the

[Aberlin?] School. And then from there, I went to New

Rochelle High, graduated with honors, and from there, I

wanted to go to Sarah Lawrence, [00:05:00] but Mommy died,

so I went to Drake Business College, got my papers in

(inaudible), which I had no interest in at all, but

panicked because I said, "What if my father passes? I'll

have to be self-supported." So, I had to study something

that I figured I could get a job quickly in. But my major

interest was research science. Can you read that?

SHAW: Yes, I can.

JACKSON: I wanted to be a research scientist.

SHAW: A woman ahead of her time.

JACKSON: Yeah.

SHAW: So, you came to Boston, you're on Winthrop Street,

walking down from Winthrop Street down to Cornfield Road,

4 that's about three or four blocks, and you did it every

day?

JACKSON: Every day.

SHAW: And how many children did you have then?

JACKSON: I didn’t have any.

SHAW: You were pregnant?

JACKSON: Yes, I was pregnant, but I didn’t have a child yet.

But I did hear, when the child was born, I went to the

[Evangeline Luke?] Hospital, that's in the South End.

SHAW: Used to be, not there anymore. It was on...

JACKSON: Wait a minute... [00:06:00]

SHAW: It was on West Newton Street, wasn't it?

JACKSON: Yes, right, yeah.

SHAW: West Newton, the Evangeline...

JACKSON: It was a private hospital. And well, a lot of people

said to me, "If you hadn't gone there, maybe your baby

would've lived," because no doctor would go in there other

than somebody affiliated with the hospital. But anyway, I

gave her to the baby doctor three days after birth. But

what is interesting to me was, I heard the Jewish owner of

Cornfield's Pharmacy talking, I was always curious.

SHAW: I know that.

JACKSON: You know what I mean, always so curious. And I heard

them talking about a drugstore for sale on Tremont Street.

5 Now, I'm going to tell you a little secret, you don’t have

to record this, but I was born with a veil. That means

that I can see things, I can predict things. My son will

tell you I can tell him [00:07:00] when I'm going to hit

the lottery, I don’t even play it. But, when I have

that...

SHAW: The feeling?

JACKSON: That thing...

SHAW: Do you have it today?

JACKSON: I got a blessing when I agreed to do this. So, what a

minute, Sarah. So, I heard them talking about this

drugstore. I didn’t know where -- all I knew was how to

get from Winter Street to Cornfield Pharmacy at the corner

of Williams Street. I knew nothing about anything else,

I'm from New Rochelle, New York, I don’t know about the big

city of Boston. So, I'm asking everybody that goes by the

drugstore, "How do I find Tremont Street? Fredrick Douglas

Square?" I heard them say that. So, finally, they must've

thought I was a nutcake. But anyway, this little Irish

lady came along, and she took me by my hand, she says,

"Come with me, child." She took [00:08:00] me down

Williams Street. She says -- now, this is how I learned

the word perpendicular. This street runs perpendicular to

-- "Shawmut Avenue runs perpendicular to Williams Street,"

6 she says. And we're going down there, we're going to make

a right turn. And then we're going to walk all the way

down Shawmut Avenue to Hammond Street. And, she says,

"We'll take a left turn onto Hammond Street. And that will

lead us into the street you're looking for, Tremont

Street." Well, I told you all of that, because when I got

there, to Tremont Street, I looked, I said, "That's the

building I'm going to buy, that's the drugstore we're going

to get." That's how I saw and found the pharmacy. Now...

SHAW: Was it already a pharmacy when you saw it, and who was

running it?

JACKSON: Well, Mr. Aronstein, and they lived in the community,

the Aronstein's. The [00:09:00] son was a pharmacist, the

father was a pharmacist. And it was a very beautiful old

fashioned drugstore. It had a mahogany canopy that came

over the fountain. Well, that fascinated me because I

loved antiques and stuff like that, you know? And that

fascinated me. So, I went in and introduced myself. Just

the young girl, young bride, to Mr. Aronstein. I said to

her, "You want to sell your store?" And looked around, and

started looking at the merchandise, because my mother was a

businesswoman, and she had a store left to her by one of

her friends, and she always taught me how to count and

check the merchandise, to count the traffic that goes by,

7 that'll determine how much money you're going to make, and

if it's going to be a success. So, anyway, I went in and I

talked to him, and he gave me a price. And I'm looking

around, and I like the store, I get ideas [00:10:00] in my

head.

SHAW: It had a soda fountain?

JACKSON: Yes, ma'am. That canopy was over the soda fountain.

SHAW: And then in the back was where you got your medicines?

JACKSON: Not only that, they had a postal station.

SHAW: Oh, that's right, because you used to be able to...

JACKSON: An old fashioned postal substation.

SHAW: Yeah, you used to be able to get a -- a lot of the

drugstore substations, you could get stamps, and postcards,

and things in the drugstores.

JACKSON: They used to let us and stuff, everything. A sub-

postal station. So, that made us a focal point in the

Lower Roxbury area, because everybody came there to do

their business, and anyone that was a little illiterate

about our culture and reading and writing, we would handle

all of that for them. It's a service.

SHAW: And you were near the credit union, which was right...

JACKSON: Right up the street from us. Colonel [Loping

Hewitt?], remember him?

SHAW: And the [Bino's?].

8 JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: The Bino's helped to up together the credit union.

[00:11:00]

JACKSON: Yes, they did.

SHAW: And a lot of people from St. Ciprian's, a lot of

people from...

JACKSON: St. Ciprian's was our church.

SHAW: Yeah. St. Ciprian's was kind of the church for people

who came from various...

JACKSON: Jamaica.

SHAW: Yeah, Jamaica.

JACKSON: The islands.

SHAW: The islands, in particular. And they started the

Boston Progressive Credit Union. I remember my father had

accounts there, and he had accounts for me and my brother.

And I remember having to go down to the credit union and

put a dollar in or...

JACKSON: That's right, Sarah, you got it.

SHAW: (laughter) My father made a...

JACKSON: Do you want to know a story about the credit union?

SHAW: Sure.

JACKSON: An experience I had down there...

SHAW: Sure.

9 JACKSON: Well, you know, we finally negotiated the drugstore,

I'll bypass all of that, and we got the business.

SHAW: How much -- do you remember how much you paid for it?

JACKSON: I sure do. He wanted a deposit of $2,000, and we got

it for about $5,600.

SHAW: The whole price?

JACKSON: Yes. [00:12:00]

SHAW: (laughter)

JACKSON: But wait a minute, I got one better than that to tell

you about the price. Oh. Ouch. I said to him, he wanted

a deposit of $2,500. Now, my husband did not know that I

had that kind of money, he's looking at me like I'm crazy.

But when I got married, in New Rochelle, New York, my

father gave me $25,000 as a wedding gift.

SHAW: Oh! What did your father do for a living?

JACKSON: My father was an engineer.

SHAW: Oh!

JACKSON: And not a phony. Down to earth. And neither was my

mother, you would've loved Momma and Dad. Real -- there

was no talk about hair color, better not be. She'd

(inaudible). We're all God's children. We may have a

little money, but everything has a price tag, so you learn

how to work. And we started. That's how we -- we earned

our money doing whatever. And she'd match us dollar for

10 dollar. That's the way that went. Well, anyway, getting

to this money, I had tucked it in the mattress, I'm world

famous for the mattress girl. To this day, I do it, it's

amazing! So, I tuck this money in the mattress, didn’t

tell doc anything about it. So, we're talking to Mr.

Aronstein, we're going to buy the drugstore, and [Noel?] is

looking at me like I'm crazy. So, I said to Mr. Aronstein,

I said, "Well, I like your store, we'd like to buy it, I

want Dr. Jackson to come and check out everything, and I'll

be back tomorrow." My husband is still looking at me like

I'm nuts. Anyway, we came back the next day, Noel said to

me, "How are we going to -- [00:14:00] you have to have

lawyers, you have to have this, you have to have..." I

said, "Wait a minute, were you not a (inaudible)

foundation? Yeah." I said, "Well, you went to the camp,

didn’t you? Yeah. Well, you must've had somebody up there

that studied law." He said, "Oh yeah, Stanley Carver." I

said, "Well, call him, he'll do it for nothing." And he

did. So, in the meantime, Sarah and -- I came back and

negotiated with him. Noel let me do all of the talking. I

said...

SHAW: Did he have a choice?

JACKSON: Maybe not, Sarah. I don’t know! (laughter) However,

he's looking at me like I'm crazy. So, anyway, I said to

11 Mr. Aronstein, we agreed to buy the business. My husband's

still shaking his head. Stanley comes down, I said, "Just

a minute. If we pay you back this $2,500," [00:15:00] I

can see it as if it were yesterday. Ahead of time, we'd

give it back to me as a bonus. I sure did. He said,

"[Yosh!] That’s a Yid!" That's the first time I ever

heard Jewish. And he said to Doc, "You have a great lady

here, she's a Jewish wife. And you're going to be very

successful, you'll have a lot of money." Honest to

goodness, that's a true story I'm telling you. So, I got

my bonus, but I already knew I had the money, see? And Doc

didn’t know nothing about that, but I knew I had the money

to pay him back ahead of time. Now, getting to the credit

union, this is a very...

SHAW: So, in other words, you paid Aronstein...

JACKSON: Two thousand dollars -- $2,500 back -- before, it was

$2,000, in the agreement, and he gave it back to me as a

bonus, because I paid him ahead of time. That's the deal

we made.

SHAW: But you paid $5,600 in total, or...

JACKSON: Yes.

SHAW: And so, if you paid...

JACKSON: Two [00:16:00] thousand five hundred dollars was the

deposit.

12 SHAW: So, does that mean that you ended up paying $3,100 for

this business?

JACKSON: Mm-hmm, you've got a good head on your shoulders.

(laughter) That's a true story. And let me tell you

something else that's very interesting with the credit

union. The man that owned the building, listen to me, this

is very interesting to your project. From downtown,

(inaudible), from downtown Boston, all the way up the route

to Roxbury Crossing was owned by Yankees. The Charles E.

Fay family owned all of this property, they were Yankees.

Now, he was the vice president of the John Hancock

Insurance Company. He owned the building that housed my

pharmacy. [00:17:00] Well, here I am now, getting ready,

I'm taking care of this business, I decide, I say to Doc,

"We need to buy this drugstore, the building." Because, I

said, "You know, we're going to grow old one day, and we

need to secure our future." So, my husband's scratching

his head, you know, I said, we're pillowtalking, one night

in the bed, we had all -- Mr. Fay was coming to us ahead of

time for the rent. And I said to Dr. Jackson, in

pillowtalk, I said, "You know something, he's not a nice

man." I can remember it as clear as day. I said, "He's

cheating on his wife, and he wants that money." I said,

"Now's the time for us to propose buying it from him to

13 build it." And I said, "He thinks we're going to go to the

Shawmut Bank, or to the [00:18:00] First National Bank."

Uh-uh, I said, "We're going right up the street to the

credit union." Doc said what, I said, "I've already done

my homework." I said, "(inaudible) you know, and all of

them." I said, "That Mr. Fay is expecting us to go to

their traditional bank so he'd get it back." I said, "He's

not a nice man, cheating on his wife, and he'll never get

it back." He cried like a baby when we went to the credit

union to pass the papers. And he said, I'll never forget,

"I'm the first one in the family to ever lose a parcel of

property." And I just thanked him very much. And Colonel

[Lockensure?] and my son -- and then, you remember Mr.

Charlie Shepherd, Sarah, do you remember him? He was a big

wig?

SHAW: I don’t remember him, I remember Colonel Hewitt,

because he was the force between getting the YMCA started

[00:19:00] down on Martin Luther King Blvd. So, I remember

Colonel Hewitt from that.

JACKSON: But you don’t remember the other person?

SHAW: No.

JACKSON: Well, I'm going to tell you, it was a very interesting

lifetime. So, we got the building, and I said to Doc, "If

we ever lose it or can't make it, it'll never go back to

14 the Charles Fay's, it'll stay in our race." That was my

thing, and that's how we got the Douglas Square Pharmacy.

SHAW: You remember how much you paid to get the building?

JACKSON: I don’t think I do, I got the papers somewhere here.

Drew will tell you, my mother got a million different

papers, it drives me crazy. How much did we pay for it? I

think it was something like $10,000, maybe somewhere around

there.

SHAW: Now, were you across the street -- or, you were near

the Masonic Temple, which is also on Tremont Street.

JACKSON: Yes, it was diagonally across like that. [00:20:00]

Up near the...

SHAW: New St. Ciprian's.

JACKSON: St. Ciprian's Church. And it was a fabulous building.

SHAW: I know, it was.

JACKSON: And I'll never forgive Herbie Tucker, I'll never

forgive him for negotiating the sale and the destruction of

that building. It's one of the finest buildings in all of

this state.

SHAW: It was a lovely building, it really was.

JACKSON: We had (inaudible) my husband was a mason. And I

know, oh, we had everything, it was fabulous.

15 SHAW: Yeah, my father was a mason. And it was a beautiful

old fashioned building. Oh, a lot of granite, and a lot of

pudding stones.

JACKSON: Yes, ma'am.

SHAW: Was it three or four stories, Gretchen?

JACKSON: Four stories.

SHAW: Four stories, it was a beautiful old building, you

know, old fashioned, you know, historical looking building.

And there were two storefronts on the floor, because I

think...

JACKSON: It was a money maker. Prince Hall came down when we

got that building, do you remember?

SHAW: Yeah. [00:21:00]

JACKSON: That's the history.

SHAW: Because I think that the church my mother belonged to

had one of the storefronts there.

JACKSON: Downstairs.

SHAW: Downstairs, it was the Gloucester Memorial

Presbyterian Church that Reverend Winthrop passed.

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: It was in one of the storefronts by the Masonic

temple.

16 JACKSON: Well, Sarah Ann, don’t you remember, that area where

we're talking about in Lower Roxbury is where all of the

business people were all of color.

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: And we had every business -- I can call them off to

you, I wrote them down.

SHAW: Yeah, call them off, let's see. See if I remember

them.

JACKSON: You'll remember them, I'm sure, you're a smart girl,

you know. You came along in my era, when we were together

in this business. You had the little mats, the

electrician, you had Mr. Wendell Leach, the locksmith

business. We had the [Fayson?] Snack Bar, we had

[McIlvayne?] and Broxton Insurance Company. Broxton

[00:22:00] Insurance Company. We had Miss [Haddie?] Jones,

you remember her?

SHAW: No, I don’t remember.

JACKSON: The Jones brothers that used to sing, their mother,

she had an antique shop right in front of Dudley Square. A

lot of the antiques that I have, I got from her, she'd come

over and give them to me, you know, and the right price and

everything. Haddie Jones. And then you had, let me see,

Mr. Beckhead, the tailor, you remember the Beckheads, the

tailor shops? Then you had Mr. Monroe, right across from

17 us, Joe Beals was on this corner, and across on that corner

was Mr. Monroe, he had a cleaning business.

SHAW: And Joe Beals was a restaurant?

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: Snack bar, restaurant, I hadn't heard that name in

ages, Joe Beals.

JACKSON: I'm telling you, and then we had Monroe, then we --

well, I don’t want to go to Bolt's grocery store on Shawmut

Avenue, remember, that was big. But let's go back to

Dudley [00:23:00] Square. Abbot and Bob [Vulvetta?]

barbers?

SHAW: Yeah, where Jimmy Guilford?

JACKSON: No, Jimmy Guilford was down on Tremont.

SHAW: Where was Fogie?

JACKSON: Fogie was right across the street next to -- you know

on the corner where Joe Beals is, you go in three

buildings, you had the shoemaker. (inaudible), what was

the name of your shoemaker?

TOUIE: How would I know?

JACKSON: Across the street on Tremont Street? He was from the

North End. Carton will remember, I'll get it from him.

TOUIE: I can't answer that one for you.

JACKSON: Anyway, that's where Fogie used to be, right next to

him. Bob Folger...

18 TOUIE: Joe Abbott.

JACKSON: Yeah, Joe Abbott. Then you had the Masonic temple, I

said that. Oh, we had JA Cigars right in back of Joe Beals

on Columbus Ave.

SHAW: Yes, now a Northeastern building.

JACKSON: Yeah. And then you had Amos Meat Factory. All of

those people were customers in our [00:24:00] drugstore,

and our businesses. We also had Connie's Millinery and

Dress Shop, a sponsor of the Gretchen Jackson Show, all of

these people played a role in my career, too. They

sponsored -- we all worked together and helped each other.

And then you had the League of Women for community -- well,

that's down at 558 Mass.

SHAW: Yes.

JACKSON: Then we have -- do you remember Bennett's Ice Cream on

Walpole Street?

SHAW: What ice cream?

JACKSON: [Dime?].

SHAW: No. But I know that there was a doughnut shop along

Tremont Street, because my friend's grandfather used to

work in it. I don’t remember the name of it, but there was

a big doughnut shop on Tremont Street. Maybe going towards

the old police station. It was further up Tremont Street.

JACKSON: OK.

19 SHAW: But I don’t remember the...

JACKSON: Would that have been near the [00:25:00] peanut

factory? You know, we had a peanut factory on Tremont

Street? The American Peanut Company. Then, we had a

commissary. You remember the commissary for Hellman's

Party House out of Brookline? We had a beautiful

commissary there, did all of the fabulous catering and

everything. And then, we had a post office, a brand new --

I'll never forgive them for that, it was lovely, it was

built, and then they tore it down a couple of years later.

We had a fire station right there, remember that?

SHAW: Yeah, and then there was an Italian restaurant, they

used to show movies in the back of the restaurant, I can't

remember the name of it. It was near the police station.

JACKSON: Oh, that's [Al Faia?], then.

SHAW: Yeah, [Al Faia?].

JACKSON: Decko Barber Supply, you remember?

SHAW: Yeah, Decko.

JACKSON: Oh, God, she was a doll. House full of babies, but a

wonderful lady. Then, we had Jenkins -- oh, [00:26:00] do

you remember when we used to have an annual parade, a

Marcus Garvey parade? You remember that, Sarah Ann? You

do too. Jenkins band used to play, remember?

SHAW: But remember, I lived up on Monroe Street, you know...

20 JACKSON: I don’t think -- you used to come down.

SHAW: I don’t remember, I may have come down. I remember

the schoolboy parades, when, you know, the -- when all of

the boys -- when we had the all-boys schools and the all-

girls high schools, and the boys all had to take -- they

were like cadets, and every year, they would have the

schoolboy parade, and it would be down by the public

library, and all of the boys --

JACKSON: It's a big thing.

SHAW: -- Wore khaki shirts, uniforms from the different high

schools, and it was a big treat as a teenager to go down by

Copley Library and look for boys you know, that you knew,

going by in the schoolboy parade, and a little [00:27:00]

waive. (laughter) Yes.

JACKSON: It's interesting.

SHAW: And I remember Rodney Smith, remember Rodney?

JACKSON: I certainly do.

SHAW: Rodney was the drum major of something, because some

of the schoolboy cadet groups had bands, and Rodney was the

drum major, I remember, one year.

JACKSON: You remember Carl (inaudible)?

SHAW: Yes, I remember.

JACKSON: I loved Carl. He was a master builder, and he'd do

it, he could do anything. And do you remember the Busbys?

21 SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: One brother was a musician that taught my son to play

guitar, the other brother is a schoolteacher. The Busby

family, they lived off of Tremont Street, and they...

SHAW: Was that the family, they had a sister -- did they

have a sister named [Aloma?]?

JACKSON: Yes.

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: The Busby Family. [00:28:00] And the brother, Cecil

Busby, would have my drugstore and (inaudible). That's

important to know. Because, see, everything that happened

in the Lower Roxbury area was done by black -- I always say

that, Oriental people, all black people, and we mixed with

whites, but we made our money from their support in

everything. Everybody was there that you needed, and black

business thrived in the Lower Roxbury community.

SHAW: We had Slade's.

JACKSON: Yeah, we had Slade's Barbecue.

SHAW: Which was just a stone's throw from the...

JACKSON: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) You remember the

Christmases?

SHAW: Oh, God, that barbecue, that was wonderful.

JACKSON: The Christmas brothers, they had a fabulous place.

SHAW: The barbecue place?

22 JACKSON: Yes. And let me see who else, I got something else

here that I -- see how I would write things down as I think

about them. Marcus Garvey parade, I gave them that. Yeah?

LOLITA: Could you say a little bit more about the Marcus

Garvey [00:29:00] parade?

JACKSON: You want to know more about that?

LOLITA: Mm-hmm.

JACKSON: Every year, it took place here in Boston, in the Lower

Roxbury community, in Boston. Let me see...

SHAW: Where did they go? From where to where? Where did

they parade?

JACKSON: Jenkins band. Jenkins band played all over the

country. Marcus Garvey parade, I can only tell you about

it coming to our Boston every year, OK? And in our Lower

Roxbury was a focal point. And the Jenkins band, that's as

much as my memory has.

SHAW: Was the Jenkins band from out of town?

JACKSON: Yes, they came (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it

was an out of town band that would come here every year and

play for the parade, the Marcus Garvey parade. Now, the

tie-in, Sarah Ann, maybe you can help me with this, was

Marcus Garvey a part of this area?

SHAW: No, but there were a lot of people who...

JACKSON: Followed him?

23 SHAW: Who followed him, like Elmer Lewis's father,

[00:30:00] they were Garveyites. I think Ruth Badson's

family, they were Garveyites. There were a lot of people

who were Garveyites, and so, they followed Garvey. Now, do

you remember where the parade went? Did it go down Tremont

Street, did it go on Mass Ave?

JACKSON: Of course.

SHAW: From where to where?

JACKSON: From where to where, I don’t know, but I do know it

was a big deal, and we sold a lot of ice cream, and a lot

of frappes, and all of that stuff. (laughter) That's what

I remember.

SHAW: Because people were wandering around.

JACKSON: I'll tell you, it was fabulous, yes.

SHAW: So, it had to be in the summertime, because of people

bringing frappes and ice cream, it had to have been in the

summertime.

JACKSON: Yes, yes. And Dr. Jackson invented the purple cow.

SHAW: Oh, really?

JACKSON: You know what the purple cow is, don’t you? Purple

cow is frappe with Welch's grape juice put in, he named it

the purple cow. That's how I got into the radio business.

The guys from the stations would come to the drug store,

they heard about this purple cow, [00:31:00] and they would

24 hear me kibitzing with the customers, and this Ken Strong

said, "That gal, we got to get her on the air, she has a

communication that's out of sight." And I thought they

were crazy, because Sarah, all I -- and Sue, right?

LOLITA: Lolita.

SHAW: Lolita.

JACKSON: Lolita. All I ever wanted was to be married and have

a family. Very family-oriented. I have a husband, I had

two lovely little boys, that was it. So, I refused those

people when they came running, I said no. And they came to

the drugstore every day, they drove me crazy. I still said

no. I helped my husband and raised my little boys. Well,

Christmas came, we always had a wassail at my house. And

Dr. Jackson, very sneakily...

LOLITA: A what?

SHAW: A wassail, W-A-S-S-A-I-L, it's like a Christmas party

--

JACKSON: Christmas thing and you drink.

SHAW: -- And you drink mulled wine, and it's German in

origin.

JACKSON: That's right, absolutely. So, [00:32:00] where was I,

I was telling you something.

SHAW: You said every year, you had a wassail.

25 JACKSON: Yeah, we had a wassail every year. So, my husband

sneakily invited Ken Strong and a guy from WHDH, and some

of them that used to come to the drugstore all the time.

And they've been at me for over a year, and I was not

interested. And he sneakily invited them to the house to

have wassail, say Merry Christmas, you know, and all of

that. So I said to them this, I said, "You know what, I am

so sick and tired of you all annoying me," I said, "I'll

tell you what I'll do, I'll write one column for you,"

there was a newspaperman involved. And I did a column, and

they ran it on the front page and it all broke loose.

That's the true story of how I got involved. Now, I know

you remember how you got involved, we all do, we can't

forget it, we blazed the trail. And so, this man ran my

picture on the front page of the newspapers. [00:33:00]

SHAW: Which one, the Globe, the Herald, the...

JACKSON: The Herald all of them.

SHAW: The Traveler?

JACKSON: It was awful, yes. And so, then Ken Strong.

SHAW: You have any of those clippings still?

JACKSON: Touie found some the other day.

SHAW: Do you know where they are, Touie?

TOUIE: Unfortunately, no, because we've gone through a bunch

of boxes. Unless it's in the box that you did yesterday,

26 that used box, but I don’t remember you talking about it,

because I think we did that a while ago.

JACKSON: No, they were in the boxes, but I don’t know where we

put them, but I will save them for you.

SHAW: Well, we need as many picture as you can find of Lower

Roxbury, if there are any boxes, Touie, that have...

JACKSON: In that chair, in the back, on my dressing table chair

in my bedroom, bring my white book here. Where my cashmere

shawl is, I can show them some pictures out of there. And

there's another bag over there in the corner.

SHAW: Now, you weren't living in Roxbury, the business was

in Roxbury...

JACKSON: What are you talking about I wasn't living in Roxbury?

[00:34:00]

SHAW: I said, hadn't you moved -- you were living in

Roxbury, but didn’t you move out of Roxbury to Brighton?

JACKSON: No, not -- well, a long time after.

SHAW: But you didn’t stay on -- did you stay on Winthrop

Street with...

JACKSON: I stayed on with Gladys McAdoo's mother.

SHAW: Mother? Yeah.

JACKSON: For two or three years. Then, we went up to Aunt

Marion's place, on Moreland Street, we lived about a year.

And then, from there, I think I went to -- I heard about

27 the lady that we got the house from there -- yeah, bring

that here.

SHAW: No, just put it down, we'll look at it afterwards,

Gretchen.

JACKSON: I have some pictures in there.

SHAW: Yeah, we'll get the pictures out, but you can tell us

what they are.

JACKSON: Sit down here, Touie, with us.

TOUIE: No, that's fine, Mom, that's your show right there.

JACKSON: (laughter) Not my show, I'm just telling what I know

so Lolita can do her thing!

TOUIE: Don’t forget Miss Kitty [Fason?].

JACKSON: Huh? Oh, yeah, Miss Kitty Fason, and [00:35:00] the

(inaudible)?

SHAW: Oh, Kitty Fason, I remember that name.

JACKSON: Yeah, don’t forget that, Kitty Fason's snack bar.

What else have I got here?

SHAW: Where was Fason's?

JACKSON: She just died.

SHAW: Where was Fason's?

JACKSON: From Georgia, right in Dudley Square?

SHAW: Right in -- it was behind you, wasn’t it? It was

right behind you?

28 TOUIE: Diagonally behind, and right next to Fogie's

barbershop, when he moved across the street?

JACKSON: Right.

SHAW: Where was the Southern Kitchen, wasn’t that there?

JACKSON: Southern House, no.

SHAW: There was a place called the Southern Kitchen.

JACKSON: Yeah, but wasn’t that off of Beacon Street?

SHAW: No, it was a place called the Southern Kitchen that

was sort of behind the pharmacy and to the left, I think,

of the pharmacy. I think.

JACKSON: Touie, I don’t remember that, do you?

TOUIE: Neither do I. Can't help you on that one.

JACKSON: Let me see. Back here Monroe, Bender's, (inaudible),

oh, William Monroe Trotter, do it, that's historical.

[00:36:00] In that building, right across from Joe Beals,

on that corner there, that's where he committed suicide,

you know? William Monroe Trotter. And his sister, Maura

Trotter Stewart, was in the building, her husband was a

dentist, and he lost his vision. But she carried on The

Guardian newspaper on Tremont Street, right next to the

Italian shoemaker.

SHAW: It was a storefront, right?

JACKSON: Yes, that's where she was. Then, up the street, near

the drugstore, Dr. Lewis's drugstore, was...

29 SHAW: The Chronicle.

JACKSON: Wait a minute, yeah, but I wanted to tell you

something else about, that just passed in my mind, just

now. Oh, Gretchen. (inaudible) Oh, brother. [00:37:00]

Not Irving.

SHAW: Not the tailor's, because you were just about two

blocks away from Shag and Bell.

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: Your pharmacy.

JACKSON: That's how I got into politics for Bell. He dragged

me out of that drugstore, my drugstore. I didn’t want any

part of that, either. I just wanted to be with my husband

and my babies. However...

LOLITA: We were talking about Trotter, his sister taking over

the...

JACKSON: That's right, the Boston Guardian. And Mrs. Stewart

played a major role in my life, because I was not going to

be working in the drugstore, but she -- Dr. Jackson had a

girl named Lilly Lopez, remember her? Working in the

drugstore. Mrs. Stewart called me -- oh, you know, they

would all say that the girls were chasing Dr. Jackson.

That didn’t bother me none, I was Mrs. Jackson, that's it.

[00:38:00] So, I was there, and they had him to get, I had

him, see, and I knew they wouldn’t get him. So, anyway,

30 Mrs. Stewart called me one day. When the other ones would

tell me this girl is flirting with Doc, I paid no

attention. I wasn’t working in the store, then, when they

were very small, I stayed home most of the time. And Mrs.

Stewart said, "Gretchen?" And I said, "Yes?" I said, "How

are you, sweetheart?" I loved her. She said, "Gretchen,

you need to come down to your drugstore. That lady, that

Lopez lady in there is getting mighty fresh with Dr.

Jackson." That's the way she used to talk. And I said,

"All right, Miss Stewart." I got myself dressed up, and I

went down to that drugstore, and I addressed that lady, and

I told her, "You better not ever come back here. I'll make

sure you never come back here," in other words. And she

didn’t, she left town, we've never seen or heard of her

since. But Miss [00:39:00] Stewart told me it was time for

me to get down there, she was making it late for my

husband. Whatever was going on, I don’t know, but anyway.

What a memory that brings back. (laughter)

SHAW: I'm sure! (laughter) I would've loved to have been

there when you told her.

JACKSON: I'm telling you, you know, Sarah Ann, I really never

had all of that fight in me until I got into business and

got older, you know? But, you know, we're Scorpios, we are

[dresta?], we don’t take any nonsense. And I did what Miss

31 Stewart told me, and that was Monroe Trotter's sister, and

she was a great lady. And she was married to a dentist who

went blind, but she was very near and dear to my heart, and

very highly respected.

SHAW: Did you know Trotter at all?

JACKSON: Yes, we knew him.

SHAW: What do you remember about him?

JACKSON: He was handsome as could be. Anybody would want him,

he was gorgeous, and very brilliant. [00:40:00] Very

brilliant. But troubled, I guess. I say that now, in my

twilight years. Because I never could understand why such

a beautiful man would want to leave this universe. He had

everything going for him, the first graduate from Harvard.

There's another beautiful black man that you need to know

about in that area, Bill Harrison, you remember him?

SHAW: Mm-hmm. I remember Bill, he worked for the

Chronicle...

JACKSON: Yeah, he was a Communist, and he never faltered from

his beliefs. Then he went to Oxford, England, remember

that?

SHAW: I remember he graduated from Harvard, and he came out

and couldn’t get a job because he was a Communist.

JACKSON: That's right, because he was a Communist, and black.

32 SHAW: Yeah, Bill was not handsome like Trotter, but he was

very, very smart.

JACKSON: No, brilliant, very brilliant, a genius. And then he

went to Oxford, England, he won a scholarship there, and

(inaudible) his papers from there. [00:41:00] We have

some fabulous black people, let me tell you.

SHAW: Yeah, because The Chronicle was right down the street

on Tremont Street.

JACKSON: That's right. What else -- I'm looking at my notes,

so I can refresh and tell you as much I know, remember.

Did you remember G. Harold Faulkner, Sarah Ann? He owned a

record store, and he was a city greeter.

SHAW: No.

JACKSON: He didn’t live in our area, but he was always there.

LOLITA: What's a city greeter?

JACKSON: There was a city greeter.

LOLITA: What is that, I don't know what that means.

JACKSON: G. Harold Faulkner, F-A-U-L-K-N-E-R, he was -- maybe

(inaudible) remember.

SHAW: A city greeter would be -- when people would come to

City Hall, and he would announce them, he would be the city

greeter, they don’t have them anymore, I don’t think.

JACKSON: No, but that's what he was, a city greeter, and he had

a [00:42:00] record store.

33 LOLITA: Tell me his name again.

JACKSON: G. Harold Faulkner, F-A-U-L-K-N-E-R.

SHAW: Do you remember the store about Mr. Banks, who lost

the City Council election, Gretchen?

JACKSON: I know him.

SHAW: Oh, you knew him?

JACKSON: Let me think.

SHAW: This was a black man who won a City Council election

before the -- it was a different configuration for the City

Council then. And he apparently won the election, and they

refused to seat him.

JACKSON: Seat him, mm-hmm.

SHAW: And then, they found the ballot boxes had washed up on

Revere Beach or something, it was -- and I think by the

time it went through the courts and stuff, the man had

died. That's what I vaguely remember.

JACKSON: Sarah, you got it.

SHAW: That's what I vaguely remember, that he had died, by

the time the whole thing went through the courts and came

back. Yes. [00:43:00]

TOUIE: When was that?

SHAW: It had to have been in the '50s, wasn’t it, Gretchen?

JACKSON: Yes. Yes, it was, because that was the early era,

when I was in -- that's how I know so much about all these

34 here people. I can remember them as if it were yesterday,

because it was in the '50s, when I came here. I married

Dr. Jackson and came to Boston, and I would never go back

home.

SHAW: Now, let's see, I'm going down Tremont Street. So,

from your pharmacy, then was Slade's, and then Christmas's

Barbecue was a couple of doors beyond Slade's.

JACKSON: Remember his sisters, how lovely they were?

SHAW: I just remember him -- I remember him...

JACKSON: Yeah, he had a Cadillac car.

SHAW: Yeah, big car.

JACKSON: Beautiful car.

SHAW: And I remember he had a daughter who was very large,

who worked for him. And then there was a liquor store

beside, I think, the -- I think there was the liquor store

besides Christmas's, and then [00:44:00] it was Lincoln

Pharmacy, then was Estelle's. And then, across the street

was the, what, the Pioneer Club! (laughter)

JACKSON: Club, that's right, we don’t forget that. Every big

musician that ever came to appear in Boston landed in the

Pioneer Club. The Hi-Hat existed at Tremont and...

SHAW: Columbus.

JACKSON: Columbus Avenue. I remember.

SHAW: Columbus and Mass. Mass and Columbus.

35 JACKSON: Mass. I remember going to see the opening, they

didn’t let blacks in then, you know, but I was a newspaper

gal. By then, I was a newspaper gal.

LOLITA: Because we had -- you had said something about you

wrote a column, and then it was on the front page of the

newspapers.

JACKSON: Oh, you want me to finish that?

SHAW: What paper did you write for?

JACKSON: I wrote for the -- here in Boston?

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: Oh, I did something with Phyllis Hanes and the Herald

Traveler, and then [00:45:00] I wrote for the Pittsburgh

Courier, [Balley?] Shock used to be the -- and when she got

married, I became Gretchen talks about Boston's side for

the Pittsburgh Courier, all over the country. I had a

syndicated column. And then I wrote for Fame Magazine, out

of Bermuda. Wait a minute, let me...

TOUIE: What about The Chronicle?

JACKSON: Huh?

SHAW: Did you write for (multiple conversations; inaudible)

Yeah, The Chronicle, yeah.

LOLITA: Do you remember anything about what that first article

was about? Do you remember, you know, you said you wrote

36 that Ken Strong and different people had come to your house

for the wassail, and then you wrote an article.

JACKSON: I don’t know what that was about.

LOLITA: OK.

JACKSON: But it had something to do with -- I don’t know, give

this to your mother. This came out of -- they gave me a

tribute of recognition in 1977, that's a reprint that they

-- I don’t know when I found time to do all of that stuff.

[00:46:00] However,

SHAW: I think I came to that in 1977.

JACKSON: Yeah, it was in 1977, and they -- here, Sarah, you can

have one out of that.

SHAW: Thank you, sweetheart.

JACKSON: Something about my background and stuff, but they

always tell me...

SHAW: The glamour lady. Glamour, glamour.

JACKSON: Just plain old Gretchen, it never showed off. No,

down to earth. No bigotry in my family, my mother wouldn’t

tolerate that. But getting back to what you asked me.

What was the column about. I know the column for The

Courier was "Gretchen Talks About Boston's Society," and

then I'd do feature stories on everything, because I was

very cosmopolitan, I was not a bigot.

37 LOLITA: I was just curious, [00:47:00] so, you write this

article, and then, so how does that happen? You write the

article, it comes out on the front page of the newspaper.

JACKSON: Of the newspaper.

LOLITA: And then...

JACKSON: And then I got the offer of a contract to go on the

radio, and they hounded me to come, so I said, "Wait a

minute, I don’t know anything about this business. Let me

do some research and some study." See, I'm thinking. So,

I remember saying to Dr. Jackson one night, pillow talk

again, I said, "You know, Mr. Charlie is a strange

character. Took this country from the (inaudible) brought

slavery here, he's a money man. They're interested in

money." I said, "Now, there must be big money in this

business." Listen to this thing, this is awful, but I did

say it. I said, no, [00:48:00] I said, "They'll use you,

get the money -- you'll make money for him and drop you

like a hot potato, but I don’t like to be dropped like no

hot potato. Once I make it, I'm going to be there, I'm

staying on the top and keep going up." So, he said, "What

are you saying, Gretchy?" I said, "Well, I want to

research this business. And I'm going to go out and get my

own sponsors, and they will sign with Gretchen Jackson, not

the station. So, if he does get happy, and wants to fire

38 me, my sponsors won't go with me, and their thing is money." So, Sarah, didn’t it happen that going to the show one night, and they had a clock parade on my sponsorship, so I said I'm quitting. They thought they were going to get the sponsors, my sponsors told him we go where Gretchen goes. Smartest move I ever made. [00:49:00] And that's how I stayed there. I didn’t stay at that station, another one picked me right up, see, more money. But that's the way the business went, and I was so grateful to her, that veil that I had guided me all through my life, even out here to this house. This child called me overnight one night, Carlton was in the hospital, they wanted to put him in a nursing home because he's a paraplegic, and has multiple sclerosis. And I said, "Oh my God, I can't see my son in a place like that." So, I'm on my way back from the hospital in Cambridge, I told my workers of the community,

I said, "You know, I'm going to have to leave, sell my house and go somewhere with my son, can be in a ranch house." So, I checked Newton, prices were sky high,

[00:50:00] and they were on a slab, I never buy a house on a slab. They wanted $1 million, $895,000 in 10 days.

That's a fact. Overnight, this child called me and said,

"Mother, you remember that house you saw being built when you came out here to go to church with us?" I said, yeah.

39 He said, "I see a little for sale sign." I said, "I'll

tell you what, you make a deal with that lady, an

appointment for me when nobody else is around, I'll come

out and look at it overnight. Sarah Ann, as God as my

witness, I came out here, I sat at that stool right here,

she had in that room, and she was sitting where Touie is

sitting, only on the front of the table there. And I never

looked at this house. And the lady's son came in the door

and she said, "You let Mrs. Jackson have this house for

whatever she wants to pay." And (inaudible). And that's

how I got here. [00:51:00] And I didn’t know what the

house even looked like, didn’t bother me any. I knew this

house was...

SHAW: You knew it was for you?

JACKSON: Yeah. So, the point that I make is that in being a

part of Lower Roxbury community, and having married and

come here to live, I learned that God speaks to you with

every thought that you get in life. And either you take

the challenge and meet it, or you suffer the consequences.

So, that's how I built my relationship with the business,

with the people of the community, and all of that, and

that's how it worked. And I thank God every day for my

blessings, and the blessings of our black community. I

prayed all the time for that community, and I've had

40 customers in my drugstore that their mother died and went

to Jamaica, [00:52:00] and I stayed and took care of her

children here so she could go to her mother's funeral, she

had five children, one of the customers. And I'm running

today with, you know, Viola Ramsey?

SHAW: Oh, the Ramseys, yeah.

JACKSON: Viola, all of those people, still stay in touch. And

it's a blessing. The Lower Roxbury community was

integrated thoroughly, there was no bigotry...

SHAW: Well, there was a little bit...

JACKSON: Did you find it? I didn’t.

SHAW: Well, I think that the Irish weren't always pleasant

to black people.

JACKSON: In our area down there?

SHAW: Oh, well...

JACKSON: I'm not talking about South Boston, now.

SHAW: No, I'm talking about down there near that police

station and stuff. Willis Saunders can tell you something

about how (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Well, how he

was treated when he first went to, you know, the police

station, when he first got on the force, and how he and

John Wells, [00:53:00] they have some stories about how

they were treated, how they were sent out to ride in their

car, and...

41 JACKSON: That's true. But in our area, Willis was a force.

Willis and Verdel Jefferson, you remember Verdel? They

were too, and J. Wilson Parker, remember how he hoofed the

beat? He was the first one.

SHAW: Now, see, I was up around with the McClain brothers,

with the McClain brothers.

JACKSON: Right, you were, I remember them. But I was dealing

with the Lower Roxbury.

SHAW: Who were the police officers in your area?

JACKSON: That's who, Willis Saunders and Verdel Jefferson

played a major role.

TOUIE: What about Craigwell?

JACKSON: Huh?

TOUIE: What about Craigwell?

JACKSON: Yes, that's right. (multiple conversations;

inaudible) Craigwell was in our area.

TOUIE: He used to come in the store.

JACKSON: Thank you, Touie.

LOLITA: And you said another name, was it Parks? You said

another name, you said...

JACKSON: J. Wilson Parker. He was the very first, and he was

an old, old gentleman. But he stayed on that force and

walked that beat [00:54:00] every single day, at night.

SHAW: Dick Banks, who became a judge, his father was --

42 JACKSON: Yes, he did.

SHAW: -- His father was also a police officer, but I don’t

know if Mr. Banks was in town, or if he was up in the Upper

Roxbury, but I know, because they...

JACKSON: He's Upper Roxbury.

SHAW: Because they used to live in Harrell Street before

they moved to --

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: -- They moved to Arlington, and I had no idea who

Arlington was. (laughter) Yeah, it was some place else,

but I remember Dick living on Harrell Street, and then...

JACKSON: That's where [Noel's?] mother lived, my husband's

mother lived on Harrell Street.

SHAW: Oh, Rue lived on Harrell Street?

JACKSON: Yeah, 88 Harrell.

SHAW: So, she must've lived...

JACKSON: Right at the corner there.

SHAW: At the corner of Harrell or...

JACKSON: And Tremont -- I mean, and (inaudible).

SHAW: Oh, where the school is now? So, she must've been on

the...

JACKSON: Right there, they took her house.

SHAW: Yeah, for the school.

43 JACKSON: Yeah. And Norris Davis was right -- oh, I forgot to

tell you all this, Norris Davis's mother lived on Tremont

[00:55:00] Street. Right upstairs over the electrical

shop.

SHAW: Mr. Lomax's shop?

JACKSON: Yes. And the two boys she had, Steve and Norris.

SHAW: Yeah, they were twins, weren't they?

JACKSON: They were -- I don’t know whether they were twins or

not.

SHAW: I thought they were twins.

JACKSON: But I know he's a professor at Howard University. And

Mrs. Davis would go to work every day and leave us in

charge of those two children, you know, to take care of

business, and make him take care of business. And Norris

was the best man and Noel and my wedding.

SHAW: Really?

JACKSON: Yeah?

SHAW: Because I remember his first funeral parlor was on

Humboldt Avenue near Townsend Street.

JACKSON: The storefront, that's right.

SHAW: The storefront near Townsend Street.

JACKSON: You've got a good memory, girl.

44 SHAW: Yeah, I remember. Well, I lived on the hill, so I

knew what was -- I can look in my mind now, and see the

drugstores, and John the shoemaker.

JACKSON: Yeah, that's right.

SHAW: And the [00:56:00] garage, there was a -- on Humboldt

Avenue, there was an automobile dealership on Humboldt

Avenue between Townsend and Wyoming Street, yeah.

JACKSON: That's right. Do you remember the minister on --

[Lavasca?].

SHAW: Yeah, Reverend Lavasca.

JACKSON: Reverend Lavasca. His daughters?

SHAW: Yeah, Vera. He had one son and he had three

daughters.

JACKSON: Daughters, that's right.

SHAW: Three daughters, yeah. Vera.

JACKSON: Vera, and the other one married one of the Jones

brothers.

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: And, I don’t know what happened to the youngest one.

Vera was a schoolteacher.

SHAW: Vera and Merle.

JACKSON: That's right, Merle.

SHAW: Merle, there were three of them.

JACKSON: That's right.

45 LOLITA: So, I just wanted to establish what year...

LONDON: Hold on one second, take a pause and switch tape.

LOLITA: He's got to put a new tape in, [00:57:00] and maybe a

new battery.

JACKSON: What year did...

LOLITA: I was going to ask, but he's switching the tape.

JACKSON: Are we giving you as much information as you wish?

LOLITA: You're filling in a lot of -- you know, I've been

doing this for about a year, and at this point, a lot of

the stories are really coming together.

JACKSON: That's good.

LOLITA: You know, I actually look in the archives of The

Chronicle and The Guardian, and sometimes, I can open up,

say, a 1942 edition of The Chronicle, and I can almost read

it as if it's today.

LONDON: Don’t mind me, I'm going to take care of your son as

soon as he finishes here, because I forgot, I gave you what

was left, but he may be (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

LOLITA: Do you want a power cord, or are you going to change

the battery, or...

LONDON: I've got a power cord that I can run over here, I've

got an outlet.

LOLITA: OK.

M2: We'll be all right for now.

46 LONDON: OK. [00:58:00]

SHAW: You got any crackers and cheese?

JACKSON: Touie, you got any crackers and cheese in there for

Sarah?

TOUIE: I didn’t buy any crackers and cheese.

SHAW: That's all right, I'll live.

TOUIE: I have pastry...

SHAW: No, I feel like something salty.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

TOUIE: What happened to those crackers that I bought you...

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) No, she might like them.

JACKSON: You took them home?

SHAW: No, this is this man who had a grocery store on -- and

it says the address of the grocery store on Tremont Street.

Let me get my water.

JACKSON: (inaudible) Pritchett, what do you...

SHAW: I'm going to get up and get my water.

JACKSON: Sarah Ann wants something in there.

SHAW: No, right over there, I had left it over here, I was

just bringing it closer to me.

TOUIE: I can get you fresh water, there.

SHAW: No, this is fine.

JACKSON: Touie, there's some cheese in there, some (inaudible)

cheese.

47 TOUIE: Mom (inaudible) cheese, you wouldn’t want Velveeta

cheese.

(multiple conversations; inaudible) [00:59:00]

JACKSON: Well, go get some for us, then.

SHAW: No, no, no, because we're going to be winding up soon

because it's almost three o'clock, Gretchen.

JACKSON: I am so upset because I failed to get those

sandwiches.

SHAW: It's all right. It's all right.

JACKSON: Well, she didn’t tell me, that's why I ordered them,

and she said -- now, she told you she should've got the

order two days ahead of time. This is crazy. Absolutely

insane.

SHAW: I love Bermuda, I haven't been in -- I used to go

every year, but I haven't been in years.

JACKSON: It's fabulous. I should be there this weekend. My

niece down there, she's had their -- the father's family is

coming, 89 of them are coming from Australia and different

places, and they're having a big reunion, and they're

[01:00:00] going to make headlines.

SHAW: Eighty-nine of them?

JACKSON: Sure, 89. They bring a lot of business to Bermuda.

SHAW: Yes, yes.

JACKSON: (inaudible)

48 LOLITA: So, in the interest of time, you know, it's always

difficult trying to, you know, squeeze a lifetime into an

hour, but I have to say, you're really covering a lot of

territory, and I appreciate that.

JACKSON: Well, I trust, you know, sweetheart, Lolita, when I

got the call, I sat down and I started to think, and I

visualized the Lower Roxbury community when I went there a

young bride and how I -- how everything evolved, and I got

to know everybody, and work -- oh, I forgot to tell about

the United Neighbors of Lower Roxbury.

SHAW: Oh yeah, that's right.

JACKSON: That's important. Wait a minute. I got to [01:01:00]

work for the community. George Adams, one of the neighbors

in the Lower Roxbury community, encouraged me to found and

join, and get this church, this little church on the end of

that street.

SHAW: Warwick Street. The building's still there.

JACKSON: Wait a minute, I can give you the numbers of the

federal government. I got that building for them for free,

we don’t got to pay any taxes or anything forever. The

United Neighbors of Lower Roxbury, it has two auditoriums

in it, I got the Boston Gas Company to give us a brand new

kitchen. Now, a man called me the other day, Sarah. An

Anglo-Saxon gentleman, and he said he wanted to buy it.

49 And I forgot all about this, see. He said, "I went down to

see [Hall?], they told me your name is on [01:02:00] the

deed." I says, "Not for sale." I went and found the book

with the papers and the government number, the IRS number

and all of the numbers that the government gave me that

indicated it's a freebie, we don’t got to pay taxes

forever, nothing. Everything is tax -- so, I said to one

of the fellows, "Get in touch with Jimmy Gilchrest. I want

you to get -- put Jimmy in touch with me because I would

like him, he worked with me at the end of my [termology?],"

I said, "And have him to look into getting a grant to rehab

that building. It belongs to the community."

SHAW: Yeah, isn't Reggie Jackson, Reginald Jackson, the

photographer, isn't Reggie -- I think he's doing some work

with that, he's a really good guy, Gretchen, if he...

JACKSON: Well, get him, then.

SHAW: If he comes -- if he gets in touch with you, if he --

I will tell him to be in touch -- [01:03:00] he may be in

Ghana right now, but Reggie lives on Warwick Street.

JACKSON: OK.

SHAW: And he knows, because the building is still there, I

think he's been doing some work.

JACKSON: Right there, and it's looking bad, you see, and it

just came to my attention, Sarah Ann, you know what...

50 SHAW: Because they want to develop the land, they want to

get it for a song from you.

JACKSON: I know, and I'll tell you, it's not available, I hung

up on the man, I didn’t care who he was. All I know is

that I got a heart attack behind that -- getting that work

done for that community. That's how I -- that's why I

stopped, you know?

SHAW: Who were the members of the...

JACKSON: George Adams. Everybody on that street, Carl

Washington, Mrs. Washington, they're all dead now. And I'm

out here in the wilderness.

SHAW: Are there -- any of them still alive, or do you

know...

JACKSON: George is gone, they're all gone.

SHAW: Well, name some other names, Gretchen, because some of

the descendants may be around.

JACKSON: Let's see here, George Adams' sister, I think she took

over his home on Cabot Street. [01:04:00] Mrs.

Washington, her son is now in Florida, she's gone.

SHAW: Cabot Street no longer exists, does it? Does Cabot

Street still exist?

JACKSON: Is it gone?

SHAW: I think so.

LOLITA: A small part of it, I think, has...

51 JACKSON: All of those storefront houses down, that was joined

together on Beaumont?

LOLITA: It seems to me, when I walked it, there's a small

section of a cobblestone street that has that name on it.

I'll check.

JACKSON: That's my street in back of my drugstore.

TOUIE: (inaudible) behind the drugstore, right behind the

drugstore, a small cobblestone street.

SHAW: I think that's the only part that's left, but it used

to be big (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

JACKSON: Beautiful homes.

SHAW: It used to be a long...

JACKSON: Street, all the way down to Haskin Avenue.

SHAW: Haskin Street is gone. [Operet?] Avenue is gone.

Madison Park's gone, there's no more park. [01:05:00]

JACKSON: How did they let that get out of our hands.

SHAW: You know, the Whittier Street Health Unit, now, it's

on Tremont Street, right near Ruggles Station.

JACKSON: I didn’t know that.

SHAW: Yeah, the Whittier Street Health Unit.

JACKSON: See, I haven't been back in years, Sarah.

SHAW: Got to get someone just to drive you in and drive you

around.

JACKSON: Yeah.

52 SHAW: Just so you could see it, Gretchen. It's so changed.

You've seen the changes, haven't you, Touie?

TOUIE: I haven't been down there recently, but the last time

I went through that area was probably nine or 10 months

ago, and it has changed a lot. And some of those streets,

you're right, are no longer there.

SHAW: Yeah, Williams Street...

JACKSON: Williams Street.

SHAW: Well, Williams Street between Washington and Shawmut

exists, but then it stops at Shawmut. It doesn’t go all

the way through, and a lot of the streets that used to be

there when I was a teenager --

JACKSON: Are gone.

SHAW: -- Gone, because they’ve built housing, and built

different things.

JACKSON: Wait a minute. [01:06:00] Barbara Parks...

TOUIE: She lived in, what was it, 48 or 42 Cabot?

JACKSON: Is that gone?

TOUIE: But that was directly behind the drugstore at an

angle. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) That cobblestone

street that you all are talking about is probably the only

part that's left of Cabot Street, it was directly behind

the drugstore in that empty lot.

SHAW: Yeah.

53 TOUIE: That's all that's probably left, because that whole

area has changed, the streets that I used to drive up and

down, or ride bikes, whatever, gone.

SHAW: What are some of the streets that you remember?

TOUIE: Oh, God.

SHAW: The names of some of them, you remember the names?

TOUIE: That's going back farther than I care to talk about,

because I would've been about 10 years old at the time.

SHAW: But you can...

TOUIE: That's going far back.

SHAW: You can't remember the names?

TOUIE: Not offhand, but I can go find -- I mean, Hammond

Street still exists.

SHAW: Yeah, Hammond Street. And Warwick Street.

TOUIE: Warwick.

SHAW: But Sterling Street's no longer the...

TOUIE: No, that would be gone, most likely.

SHAW: Yeah, Sterling Street's gone.

TOUIE: Because there were a bunch of little streets up in

back of Cabot Street, and up around Madison [01:07:00]

Park, but that whole area has changed drastically.

JACKSON: Bring these people some of that food that you bought.

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

54 LOLITA: The question that I wanted to ask you was when, what

year, did you buy the pharmacy, I don’t know if we got a

year.

JACKSON: What year did we buy that drugstore, do you -- no, you

wouldn’t know.

TOUIE: I wouldn’t, I wasn’t born.

JACKSON: Let me see.

TOUIE: When did you buy the house on Greensdale Street, '48?

JACKSON: I don’t remember, to be honest with you.

TOUIE: It had to be '48, '49 (overlapping dialogue;

inaudible)

JACKSON: I bought the Douglas Square Pharmacy, it was in -- it

was before the war, '42. It was ahead of the war. And I

learned the [June?] business from that.

TOUIE: What year did you get married, because the year that

you got married, about 18 months later, two years after

that, you bought the drugstore.

JACKSON: I married Daddy on January 16, 1940.

TOUIE: OK, so then you had to buy the store somewhere within

18 months after that.

JACKSON: Yeah.

TOUIE: Because I remember playing on, [01:08:00] what was

that, Brook Avenue, where you had the apartment where I was

born?

55 JACKSON: Yeah, 63 Brook Avenue.

TOUIE: OK, I remember playing out there. And then shortly

thereafter, you guys bought the house over in Allston. And

that had the -- I remember somewhere between '48 and '50,

that's...

JACKSON: Oh, we had been in the drugstore longer.

TOUIE: You had been, but I'm talking about the timeframe.

JACKSON: Oh, yeah.

LOLITA: OK, so, '42. So, the question I wanted to ask is one

of the other things that we're looking at is, around -- so,

you were there, the start of the war, because the

neighborhood, as I had been told, changed a lot in the next

four years.

JACKSON: After the war?

LOLITA: During the war and after the war, because of people

coming to work for the war effort, and I just wondered if

you, you know, had noted that, if you remembered that, you

know, the neighborhood changing at all. As I understood

it, a lot of people came from the south [01:09:00] to work

in the war effort.

JACKSON: Yes.

LOLITA: And I'm just wondering if you remember any of that at

all, because that's one of the areas of interest.

JACKSON: Well, I do remember when the factories were sold.

56 TOUIE: What about the JA Cigar business?

JACKSON: I told her about that already.

TOUIE: OK. What about Boston Clutchworks?

JACKSON: Oh, I forgot about that.

TOUIE: Just across from Estelle's.

JACKSON: Excuse me a minute, I have to go to the little girl's

room.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

JACKSON: Talk to the girl until I get back, Touie. Excuse us

all here. Wait a minute, just let me get my bearings.

Hold on. OK. Thank you. Thank you.

TOUIE: Don’t trip on the rug, Mom.

JACKSON: All right. Oh, to be young again!

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

[01:10:00]

SHAW: Lolita, this might be a good time to look at that

notebook, there. And I'll have a cookie, since I can't

have any.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

SHAW: Are there pictures in there?

LOLITA: Yes. And actually, it says Fay Photo Service, and

Delbrook told me that he worked for Fay.

TOUIE: Yes, he did.

LOLITA: Fay Photo Service, and so...

57 SHAW: Old newspapers there, too.

TOUIE: That's her model agency stuff right there, I remember

that.

LOLITA: We haven't even gotten to that, yet. So, I think when

she comes back, now that I've established when the

drugstore is, maybe, also in the interest of time,

[01:11:00] talk about -- because she had started to say the

Hi-Hat, blacks weren't allowed, but I was a radio

personality.

TOUIE: Newsgirl.

LOLITA: Newsgirl. Because a lot of people tell me about that,

you know, black people.

SHAW: I would suggest, you probably want to take those

pictures and ask her, hold them up and say who is this, who

is this, so you can have more B-Roll too.

LOLITA: Yeah. The thing is... You want to change the angle of

the camera or anything at all, London? There's a lot in

here.

SHAW: This man had a grocery store on 993 Tremont Street

near the 10-10. So, maybe, Mr. [Pridgett?] is maybe....

TOUIE: Bill Pridgett?

SHAW: Yeah. [01:12:00]

LOLITA: Do you want to, maybe, start with -- I keep track

of...

58 TOUIE: Anything I can help you folks with at the moment?

LOLITA: No.

TOUIE: OK.

LONDON: So, how do you want to do it, do you want to have her

hold the book, or do you want to put the book somewhere

else, or, we can use this one.

SHAW: I'll hold -- I think...

LONDON: We can use the ottoman, everybody can kind of look

over in the middle of everybody, put the book flat on top

of there, and I can get...

LOLITA: That's all right.

SHAW: Yeah.

LONDON: OK.

SHAW: That's the governor, Governor Furcolo.

TOUIE: Did she talk about McIlwaine and Brockton Insurance

Company?

SHAW: She mentioned it, but she didn’t really talk about it,

but she mentioned it.

LOLITA: Well, it's...

SHAW: Was it Johnny or [Toots?] that had the insurance

company?

TOUIE: That's going beyond my scope. [01:13:00] Sorry.

LOLITA: Oh, pull that back, London, because she has to get

back in there.

59 LONDON: Let me just get the placement first, so I can put the

camera down.

LOLITA: Of course.

SHAW: Oh, this is WBMS. OK, I'm interested in knowing who

this -- who the piano player is in the background. She

is...

TOUIE: That's Abbey Lewis.

SHAW: Oh, it's Abbey Lewis.

TOUIE: That's Abbey Lewis.

SHAW: Yes, it certainly is. Because I see it on here.

Abbey Lewis had a -- Lolita, this is Abbey Lewis's big band

leader, he used to...

TOUIE: He used to -- in fact, [Danny Potter?], who used to

drive a yellow cab at the time, used to play saxophone, I

think, with him, as I recall.

(multiple conversations; inaudible) [01:14:00]

SHAW: Oh, she has names on the back of the pictures, which

is great.

LOLITA: I guess what we can do is -- (inaudible) we took a lot

of these (inaudible). How do we want to do this?

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

(pause)

SHAW: Abbey Lewis...

60 LOLITA: Because I think the other thing is that, you know, we

definitely -- if she's amenable, is that the right word?

SHAW: Come back to it? [01:15:00]

LOLITA: Come back, because, you know, the right way to do this

would be to scan them, so that they can...

TOUIE: Yeah, this is for reference, at least.

SHAW: Yeah, who are they, who's here, who's, because...

LOLITA: Oh, London, could you go in the car, I brought her a

flower, and I left it in the car.

SHAW: Abbey Lewis, he had a big band, he used to play, he

used to be the house band for the Hi-Hat.

LOLITA: I know what I can do, because this works really well.

Thank you, Sarah Ann. It just goes so quickly. [01:16:00]

I know, I sat down with Willis and Harvey Sanford the

other...

SHAW: Yeah, he told me that.

LOLITA: It was, like, three hours just like that, right? And

I kept asking do they want a break, and, "Oh no, keep

going, keep going!"

SHAW: See, here's Gretchen on the piano, see? I wonder

(inaudible) is.

LOLITA: Which one?

SHAW: On the wall.

LOLITA: Oh, on the wall.

61 SHAW: And who did it. Well, (inaudible).

LOLITA: Thank you. (inaudible) Love springtime.

SHAW: My nose is so awful, I can't smell stuff.

TOUIE: Can't smell it? What is it, too much cayenne pepper,

or...

SHAW: No, I just have horrible allergies, and...

TOUIE: Oh yeah, yeah, I can see that. Mine have gotten a

little better, [01:17:00] they got, you know, pretty bad

for a while, but yeah, seasonal allergies, that's coming up

soon, that's right.

SHAW: It's here, it's not -- (laughter) it's here.

TOUIE: (laughter) All right.

SHAW: It's not coming, it is here. No, I have...

TOUIE: Already, really?

SHAW: Yes. Yes.

LOLITA: I could smell magnolias a couple days ago, so...

SHAW: Well, see, I could -- I came out of City Hall, you

know, the Big Apple Circus is in front of City Hall, and I

was with some people, they said, "Oh, smell the popcorn," I

could smell nothing. And, popcorn, as you know, is a

strong... Nothing. Nose was -- nose is just a nose of its

own.

TOUIE: (inaudible)

JACKSON: You're not going are you?

62 SHAW: No, we're taking -- we can't stay forever, I'd love

to, darling, we can't stay forever, but...

JACKSON: Why not!

SHAW: I know! (laughter)

JACKSON: Why not! (laughter)

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

JACKSON: Oh, isn't that beautiful? [01:18:00] It's a joy to

chat with you, to bring back beautiful memories, thank you

so much.

LOLITA: You want me to just give this...

JACKSON: Yeah.

SHAW: Give it to Touie.

LOLITA: OK.

SHAW: Pick up your dress, you don’t want to...

JACKSON: Yeah, I don’t want to fall again.

SHAW: Touie, here's a plant that Lolita brought for you, for

your mother, she's trying to hold it and move at the same

time.

JACKSON: I learned to do that, Sarah, dear. What else, you

know?

SHAW: I love this chair.

JACKSON: Thank you, sweetheart. So good to see you, why don’t

you come up more often?

63 SHAW: Because I can't drive, Gretchen! How am I going to

get here, walk from Roxbury?

JACKSON: Don’t you know enough men that can give us a ride?

(laughter) I'll tell you, and Willis -- oh, I mean to tell

you, don’t leave him out, he played a major role.

LONDON: We just saw him two days ago?

LOLITA: Two days ago.

JACKSON: In the growth of our community. He really did.

[01:19:00] And [Parel?] Thompson, who was the head of HUD

for the six New England states. He made darn sure that

that community -- that the rehab time, he made sure that we

didn’t lose our property.

SHAW: Harold's still around.

JACKSON: He calls me every day.

SHAW: Yeah, Harold's still around in Cambridge.

JACKSON: He started this.

LONDON: I'm going to make you back up.

JACKSON: OK, sweetie. What, you want to dress me up against...

Are you married?

LONDON: No, ma'am.

JACKSON: Well, I got to get you a wife.

LONDON: Uh oh.

JACKSON: (laughter)

64 SHAW: He doesn’t want to get married, maybe he wants to be a

fancy (overlapping dialogue; inaudible).

JACKSON: (inaudible) niece in Washington, let me tell you what

-- no, she's in Georgia. She's in with the alumni

association.

SHAW: Listen, I got a beautiful granddaughter who's right

nearby. (laughter)

JACKSON: We'll fix him up! (laughter) (multiple

conversations; inaudible)

SHAW: She's a sophomore in college, she's not a young-in.

JACKSON: More pictures?

LOLITA: So, [01:20:00] what we...

JACKSON: That's Art [Tacker?], Abbey Lewis, Symphony Sid.

SHAW: Symphony's on there?

JACKSON: Sure!

SHAW: Symphony Sid's on this picture?

JACKSON: Mm-hmm, he's on there, he's on one of them.

SHAW: It's just Abbey and Art Tacker.

JACKSON: Yeah, who's this, let me see. This is right here.

SHAW: It sure is, oh. Well, why don’t you say, how are we

going to do this? I think that you probably need to behind

her, and have her point and say this is so and so, this is

so and so, this is so and so, so we can get a picture

65 (multiple conversations; inaudible). You need to get the

pictures out.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

JACKSON: We had [01:21:00] the model agency, too.

SHAW: Yes, we're going to talk about that.

LOLITA: So, the one thing we -- hmm?

LONDON: Behind you?

LOLITA: Behind me?

LONDON: In front of you.

LOLITA: In front of me. We had sort of -- you were saying

something about -- well, not quite ready yet.

SHAW: Oh, Gretchen...

JACKSON: That's Art Tacker.

SHAW: Well, you point. Do you have a pencil, or...

JACKSON: Wait, Touie, there's a letter opener.

SHAW: Yeah, a letter opener. And then, you can point and

say this is so and so, this is so and so, but don’t put it

over the face.

TOUIE: We don’t even have to talk about the Boston

Girlfriends either.

SHAW: Oh, that's right.

JACKSON: Oh, that's not -- that's not in Lower Roxbury.

TOUIE: Oh, I wouldn’t know that, how would I know that?

SHAW: You and Eleanor started Girlfriends, didn’t you?

66 JACKSON: No, Vera [Riddick?] -- did you want to know who

incorporated us? Thurgood Marshall.

SHAW: The Girlfriends started here, didn’t they?

JACKSON: Here in Boston years, and years, and years ago, but I

don’t remember -- I'm a Girlfriend, but [01:22:00] I don’t

remember.

SHAW: OK, can you see all right?

JACKSON: This is Symphony Sid.

SHAW: Who used to be a big disc jockey.

JACKSON: Jockey, one of the biggest. He started at WJZ in New

York and came up to Boston, and broke into our station.

And he was -- had the number one rating. I had the number

one rating in females in the whole area of the whole state.

That's Abbey Lewis, who had a great band here in the Boston

area.

SHAW: Wasn’t he the house band for the Hi-Hat?

JACKSON: Yes, he was, and he lived on Columbus Avenue, with his

lovely mother. And she's just a lovely person. And then

this is Art Tacker, who is the jazziest dude that ever did

it, and took care of business, and saw to it that nobody

touched Gretchen.

SHAW: OK, now, who is this?

JACKSON: And this is...

LOLITA: And where are we?

67 JACKSON: You're at the Hotel [01:23:00] Shelton on the -- is

that the Fenway? The Shelton Hotel that's right in back of

Boston University, on the main roads.

SHAW: It's not there anymore.

JACKSON: It's not there anymore? It looks over the Charles

River.

SHAW: I think it's gone, or it may have a different name,

now.

JACKSON: Goodness, that's The Graphic, we forgot to tell her

about The Graphic.

SHAW: Well, do the pictures first.

JACKSON: All right. Now, this is Abbey Lewis, this is the

owner of the -- the business manager of radio station W --

the best music station in Boston, WBMS.

SHAW: BMS.

JACKSON: Yes, WBMS. This is one of the sponsors, I don’t

remember quite who she was, but she was serving savvy

something. This is your girlfriend Gretchen, and this is

Art Tacker, one of my announcers. And also, he had a show

of his own.

LOLITA: You had started to say something about you --

[01:24:00] the Hi-Hat Club, you know...

JACKSON: Yes, I wanted to tell you about Billie Holiday. They

were -- the Hi-Hat was in the heart of the black community,

68 but it was not racially compatible. They would not allow

us in there. I went in there because I'm a newspaperwoman.

Billie Holiday was opening up. When Dr. Jackson and I

walked up, she was in the gutter with her little dog. And

I went over with a -- dressed in makeup, you know? And

said, "Billie, come on, sweetheart, you've got your show to

do." And she went in and did her show. But I will never

forget it. She was then incarcerated, and allowed not to

perform anywhere for years. But it was a great deal of joy

for me, because everybody said, "You don’t mean to tell

[01:25:00] me you would go in the gutter to pick up

somebody?" I said, "She's a human being, we're all God's

children." And I had (inaudible) she was great. So, she

did her show, I went and covered it, and that was it. But

the Hi-Hat was racially bigoted.

SHAW: I know, for a long time, it was.

JACKSON: They wouldn’t let us in there.

SHAW: No.

JACKSON: Oh, I forgot to tell her about The Graphic.

SHAW: Well, what about it?

JACKSON: The Boston Graphic was owned by -- wait a minute, now,

what is his name? They made a great impact, let me put it

this way. The Boston Graphic made a great impact, and they

really promoted their people, and the news. They gave us

69 all concrete news about what the community and the people

who made the community, and worked out of it did, in the

Boston area. [01:26:00] And of course, they gave me a lot

of publicity when I became a radio personality, because I

was the first, and not only the first for black, the first

black woman sponsored show, but I also paved the way for

whites, Elizabeth -- most of the white women rose to fame

as a result and got their rights, because it was a black-

dominated area. All your biggies in radio were men. And

so, I was the first woman with sponsors. So, that paved

the way for the Louise Morgan, and for all of the other --

you remember, Sarah will tell you.

SHAW: Louise Morgan, I remember her being on the radio.

JACKSON: Yeah, that's what I did. I had no racial bigotry.

(inaudible)

LOLITA: So, let's just turn a couple [01:27:00] pages, let's

just see -- so, there you are on the...

JACKSON: Front page.

LOLITA: On the front page, and I'm trying to see if there's

anything else. I mean, I actually -- so, there's -- you

know...

LOLITA: Businesses.

JACKSON: Businesses. And that's Norris's business. Let me see

where -- I'm trying to find out the name of that store,

70 that drugstore that Sarah Ann wanted me to remember. Let

me see if it's here. How about Dr. Lewis, you know what I

mean?

LOLITA: I don’t -- I spoke to someone who lived over the

drugstore.

JACKSON: And they couldn’t remember the name?

LOLITA: Yeah, I just can't remember it. We do know the name

of it.

JACKSON: Oh, OK.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

SHAW: Are we talking about the same...

LOLITA: Same drugstore?

SHAW: Yeah. I don’t know.

JACKSON: This is -- these are the interracial -- I had the

first interracial model agency. The group [01:28:00] came

to my home one Sunday, and they wouldn’t leave until I

agreed. I didn’t want any part of it, because I was

overworked, and helping in the business, and doing all of

that, but they talked me into it. I said, "OK, I'll give

you a few years of my time. But you're going in on my

name, and it's a good name, and there'll be no hanky

panky." No going out with this, and I implemented the --

what do you call, order of assignments. That meant, I

timed you from the time you left my home to go to the

71 client and do your thing, and get back. If you do anything

against that, and if you fraternize with them, you're out,

because my great name is at stake here, and we will not

have any hanky panky. So, that's how we started.

LOLITA: And the name of the agency was?

JACKSON: The Gretchen Jackson Model Agency. The first

interracial, and you can see, we're totally interracial.

Betty Cuvo, this girl that's still alive, she came up to my

party. [01:29:00] And let me see, where's -- I wanted to

show you the fellow that became world famous, he's here.

Right here, Phil Varney, he's now a multi-millionaire, and

world famous. They all stay in touch, those that are still

alive. She's still alive, I just talked to her. She

started a model agency in Connecticut, I don’t know if

she's still operating...

LOLITA: What's her name?

JACKSON: Johnnie [Plake?]. Remember her? And this is Maurice

-- I talk to her once a month.

LOLITA: And what can you tell me about Delbrook Bens, was

he...

JACKSON: Delbrook Bens was my photographer. He did all

photographing of the agency, famous fellow, travelled

everywhere with me, and totally dependable, and a one-shot

deal, excellent photographer. Worth his weight in gold.

72 And I have to say that with the greatest of [01:30:00]

respect, because he was fabulous. And not only that, he's

a nice guy, we like him. (laughter)

SHAW: I'm looking at this graphic here, based on snack bar.

JACKSON: Yeah, that's right.

SHAW: And Norman's on Tremont Street.

JACKSON: Barbershop.

SHAW: Norman's Barbershop.

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: Thomas Studio.

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: Now, this -- Thomas used to be up on Humboldt Ave.

JACKSON: Yes, but...

SHAW: Was he here first, and then went to Humboldt Ave.?

JACKSON: Yes, after.

SHAW: So, he was on Tremont Street first, and then went to

Humboldt Avenue.

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: And let's see, who else? Rooms by the week. And on

this...

JACKSON: What else do you see here?

SHAW: Let's see, rooms by the week, experienced lady keeping

kids, and musicians.

JACKSON: Elizabeth Wilson.

73 SHAW: But what I find interesting is, here you are

interviewing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Johnson

of...

JACKSON: Yes, and I got one black and white [01:31:00] in there

with that. You'll see me in there in the black and white

with Johnnie Johnson. This was his first interview when he

started. You know, he was good to me, Sarah Ann. He never

forgot it. He said, "Gretchen, you gave me my first

exposure." And he came to Boston, and that's in the

studio, the top of the Hotel Somerset.

SHAW: That's the Somerset Hotel, that's the name of it.

JACKSON: The Hotel Somerset.

SHAW: But I don’t think the Somerset exists anymore. The

Graphic was published every Saturday on Tremont Street.

JACKSON: Oh, this is the Girlfriends. Senator Edward Brooke,

Doris Polk Jackson, she's living in Martha's Vineyard right

now, and running her aunt's establishment. And this is --

these are friends on Columbus Avenue, you know, I think

they may... [01:32:00] Sarah Ann, do you remember?

SHAW: I see Ed...

JACKSON: Ed Rook.

SHAW: Yeah, you.

JACKSON: And his friends on Columbus Avenue, I think they were

distant relatives.

74 LOLITA: I can't quite see what this is, can you make out what

this is?

JACKSON: This is Bermuda, Hamilton, Bermuda.

LOLITA: OK.

SHAW: That's you here?

JACKSON: Yes.

SHAW: But look at, here's a picture of Shag Taylor, look,

you want another picture of Shag Taylor.

JACKSON: That's it.

SHAW: Shag Taylor, right there.

TOUIE: So, who published The Graphic?

SHAW: Well, it doesn’t...

JACKSON: Mr. Thomas, Thomas.

LOLITA: Thomas, Thomas.

SHAW: It was published every Saturday at 979 Tremont Street.

That's what it says here. And Shag was a presidential

elector. Remember I told you he was a fixer and a mover?

He was an elector as a delegate to the Democratic National

Convention [01:33:00] in Chicago, and this was in 1956, so

you know he was a mover and shaker if he was going as a

delegate to the national convention in 1956.

JACKSON: He is responsible for me being in this business, Shag,

and being on two governor's staffs. Shag Taylor grabbed me

with Elwin McInney, and took me to 555 -- that's my aunt

75 Laura, to 555 Boylston Street. And I was on a campaign for

Furcolo for governor, and got elected.

SHAW: Oh, Foster Furcolo.

JACKSON: Yes. And when he got elected, I became a part of his

public relations staff. And Al Benjamin, guess where Al

Benjamin is today. He's got a newspaper up in New

Hampshire.

SHAW: Really? Now, here are two -- Colonial...

JACKSON: Colonial Lounge.

SHAW: Colonial Lounge.

JACKSON: Right across the street from my store.

SHAW: Now, it's a subway shop.

JACKSON: Oh!

SHAW: It's not a bar anymore, [01:34:00] but this was a very

-- the Colonial...

JACKSON: Oh yeah, that was the place.

SHAW: And then the Apex Beauty School, which was also on

Tremont Street, where you could go.

JACKSON: This is my brother, my half-brother, he's a dentist.

SHAW: Did you get it?

JACKSON: See, we're not racial.

SHAW: I see.

JACKSON: That's my brother.

LOLITA: His name is...

76 JACKSON: James [Goosby?].

SHAW: And here...

JACKSON: That's my mother's first husband.

SHAW: Laconia Lunch on Tremont Street.

JACKSON: Oh yeah, I don’t remember that one, though.

SHAW: But it must've been there, there are...

JACKSON: This is my drugstore. This is Carlton's van, my other

son's van, right here. Excuse me, Sarah Ann, I didn’t mean

to interrupt you.

SHAW: It's OK.

JACKSON: That's the front of our drugstore, yeah.

LOLITA: And let him zoom in on it.

JACKSON: Drugstore.

SHAW: What number Tremont were you all?

JACKSON: One thousand two.

SHAW: And this, Laconia [01:35:00] Lunch was at 779-781, so

they're a couple blocks away.

JACKSON: Johnny Estelle's, yeah.

SHAW: Yeah, Laconia Lunch and Spa. Now, when they said spa,

it meant they had a lunch counter -- I mean, they had a

counter where you could sit.

JACKSON: Sit, that's right.

SHAW: Sit and have soft drinks and stuff, a spa. May I see

that a minute? Yeah.

77 JACKSON: That's my husband, that's Dr. Jackson. That's the

interior of the drugstore, and this is the old fashioned

pay station telephone that he's standing in front of.

(pause)

SHAW: Earl Lawson, he was a really good friend of Martin

Luther King, from Malden.

LOLITA: Are you in this picture?

JACKSON: Yes, every May 30th, [01:36:00] I take a jaunt with

girls and what not, and we got to Washington, DC. And I

had a few of the friends that I call my DC family, and we

would party, and many a time, I would just get back in time

to go on the air when my station theme song is playing.

LOLITA: And what was that theme song?

JACKSON: "Memories Of You." It was by Eubie Black. Remember

Eubie and Blackbirds?

LOLITA: I know some other blackbirds, but... (laughter)

SHAW: No, but the very first (overlapping dialogue;

inaudible).

JACKSON: That's me when I was just married. Probably pregnant,

more legs than anything else.

SHAW: The piano player, let me see if I can (inaudible).

LOLITA: Did you get that, London?

SHAW: Aren't you a cutie pie.

JACKSON: This was the diamond ball. [01:37:00]

78 SHAW: Oh, remember that, at Mechanics Hall?

JACKSON: That's right, and there's Jim Fitzgerald, the night

mayor of Boston, that's me, I broadcasted the show coast to

coast. And this is Laura Morris, Frank Morris's wife.

SHAW: Oh, really?

JACKSON: Yes, right here. Did I miss your picture, dear?

LONDON: No, I got it.

JACKSON: OK.

SHAW: That's Laura there. God, if I showed this to Laura,

she would -- she and I serve on a board together.

JACKSON: That's nice.

SHAW: If I get it back to you here, can I take it back?

JACKSON: Be sure you get it back to me.

SHAW: I will get it.

JACKSON: All right.

SHAW: I want to show it to Laura, she will flip when she

sees this.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

LOLITA: Or, I can always do this and make a copy.

SHAW: Yeah.

LOLITA: Which one is she? This one?

SHAW: That's Laura, because that's Gretchen, you're in the

middle, aren't you?

JACKSON: Yes.

79 SHAW: Yeah. Yeah, they used to have this big social thing

called the Diamond Ball at Mechanics Hall which no longer

exists, it's part of the Prudential [01:38:00] setup now,

and it was a big, big drafty old place, and...

JACKSON: (inaudible)

SHAW: And they would have this Diamond Ball. Who sponsored

the Diamond Ball, Gretchen?

JACKSON: We all did, don’t you remember?

SHAW: I remember going.

JACKSON: Remember judge -- wait a minute, Lucy Mitchell?

SHAW: Yes.

JACKSON: Lucy Mitchell, Laura Morris, myself, one of the

O'Bannon's, that was about it.

LOLITA: And if we see a photo, and any of them were taken...

JACKSON: This one is, this is a very interesting, this is

[Adsworth?] Adams from Chicago, this is Foster Furcolo,

this is Edna Roosa, who just passed away, and yours truly.

We were the head of the Jack 'N' Jill Club of Boston, and

this was at our national convention, and my governor, whom

I worked under, he called it National Jack 'N' Jill Day.

And that's a picture of us. She was our national president

at the time. Edna [01:39:00] Roosa was the local

president, I was -- I gave her my office, so I guess

80 (inaudible) the Mechanics Hall and the public relations of

(inaudible).

LOLITA: And if, when you're looking at any of these photos, if

you recall them being taken by...

JACKSON: Delbrook.

LOLITA: By Delbrook.

JACKSON: You see his name, who's on here? No, this was a Fay

Photo.

LOLITA: Well, I know you worked for Fay Photo at one point...

END OF AUDIO FILE 1

LOLITA: You know, when you're doing a documentary, and what is

it that...

JACKSON: A documentary on my life, my life.

SHAW: OK, but was it the history makers? Might that have

been?

TOUIE: (inaudible)

SHAW: Huh?

TOUIE: Give them the names of who was here.

JACKSON: Frank Leopold, (inaudible) McCoy...

TOUIE: (inaudible)

JACKSON: From Atlanta, and what's it -- they all connected with

CNN, and we used to be TBS, and Frank is out of Arizona,

81 he's also out of Georgia. And I don’t know the other guys

that were with them, there were several other guys.

TOUIE: One was a young fellow, I think, from Chicago, that

had a radio station.

JACKSON: That's right, what was his name?

TOUIE: I can't remember what his name was, I have his card.

LOLITA: I was just curious as to what the final product

(multiple conversations; inaudible).

SHAW: When is it going to be aired, did they tell you?

JACKSON: I haven't got a clue, they'll let me know. They told

me.

TOUIE: (inaudible) have to have them call. [01:00] Leslie

might.

JACKSON: It takes time, you know? Well, I don’t know how they

work that stuff, I just know they call came here.

LOLITA: All right, so we're going to -- because I know we do

have to get back to Boston, I mean, I don’t want to go, but

I know we have to go. Because I had asked you about...

SHAW: This is a really good picture of the inside of the

store.

LOLITA: OK.

JACKSON: I'm listening.

SHAW: This is the inside of the drug store, isn't it,

Gretchen?

82 JACKSON: Yes, it is.

LOLITA: I'm waiting for London to be -- he's going to do that,

and then I'm going to ask you a question about it again.

So, what I wanted to ask you about, I don’t think we've

talked about it too much was about the nightlife.

JACKSON: The nightlife was just fantastic. Every -- you could

walk the streets of that area at four or five o'clock in

the morning alone, and nothing would happen to you,

everybody was safe, everybody knew everybody, and everybody

was happy, and gay, and having a great time. [02:00]

People came from all over the place to go to Slade's

Barbecue, and to Estelle's, and to the Pioneer Club, all of

the big entertainers, Duke Ellington, oh, I loved him. All

of them, Cab Calloway, you name it. And every -- it was a

party all the time, around the clock.

LOLITA: Can you name some of the nightclubs?

JACKSON: The nightclubs? The Pioneer Club was the jump off

spot, and then we'd hang out at different houses. Harold

Thompson can tell you about Joe -- you remember Joe?

SHAW: Joe [Bass?].

JACKSON: No, of course we know Joe, but no, this was a guy

named Joe on Columbus Avenue.

SHAW: The clubs were the Hi-Hat, the Wally.

JACKSON: Wallace. And...

83 TOUIE: The Sportsman's Afterhours Club.

SHAW: The Sportsman's.

JACKSON: Huh?

TOUIE: What about the Sportsman's?

SHAW: The Sportsman's -- I just knew about the Pioneer Club,

where was the Sportsman's Club?

TOUIE: It was the afterhours [03:00] establishments.

SHAW: So was -- the Pioneer was afterhours, but where was

the Sportsman's Club?

JACKSON: Yeah.

TOUIE: Down off of Mass Ave.

SHAW: Oh, the Businessman's Club.

TOUIE: (inaudible) Businessman's Club, I'm sorry.

JACKSON: The Businessman's Club.

TOUIE: The P&B Club, we called it.

SHAW: Yeah, the P&B club. On Mass Ave, it was the Wigwam.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

SHAW: No, there was Eddie Levine's.

JACKSON: Up here.

SHAW: On Mass Ave near Columbus, there was a Wigwam down on

the Cape, but Eddie Levine, remember he used to have a

replica of a wigwam outside of his place on Columbus

Avenue, I mean, on Mass Ave near Columbus.

84 JACKSON: And let me see, what else do I know about the

nightlife?

LOLITA: So, did you -- I'm wondering too, did you ever

interview any of these entertainers?

JACKSON: Of course, they all [04:00] hit the Gretchen Jackson

Show. Johnny Mathis -- oh, let me tell you about that.

Johnny Mathis, I was sitting in the Bostonian Hotel at a

(inaudible) over there in the Fenway, and I had heard this,

I had this wonderful ear for music, I've been studying the

piano since I was three years old, and I heard this song on

radio, "It's not for me to say you love me." And we were

at the hotel, and I said to my husband, and Gladys McAdoo

and Myra were there, and I said, "You know what," I said,

"I heard a tune, I guarantee it's going to be a number one

hit in six months." And then this young man from way over

somewhere, we were sitting at a table like here. Walked

over, I said, "Who is that?" Myra said to me, "That's

Johnny Mathis." I said, "Bring him here." [05:00] And he

came over, and I said, "I'd like you to appear, young man,

on my radio program." He says, "I don’t have any clothes,

decent clothes, to wear." I said to Doc, "Take him over to

Sy Stacy," you remember Sy Stacy?

SHAW: Yeah.

85 JACKSON: "Dress him up, and bring him to the Gretchen Jackson

Show." And I predicted publicly that Johnny Mathis would

be the number one singer. He has never forgotten me, he

has been lovely all through the years.

SHAW: Oh, you're still in touch with him?

JACKSON: Oh yeah. I stay in touch with everybody, they call --

the phone usually rings all day long. I told everybody,

don’t be ringing my phone today, I'll be meeting with Sarah

Ann and Lolita. So, Delbrook had wanted -- I said no. So,

but I knew that he was going to be number one, and he was.

And he still is great. And people in Bermuda, [06:00] how

did I ever get into Bermuda? I went there on a trip, my

husband went way before me because I was too busy keeping

my career going, and being on, you know, radio time and so

forth. I finally got a trip to Bermuda, I went to Bermuda

on a trip, holiday, they put me on television, did you see

some of the pictures in there of me on television, and the

next thing I know, Bermuda, I was doing things in Bermuda,

doing shows out of Bermuda. I never asked for anything.

All of this is luck, I never asked for anything. Did not

train for it, it just was God given, and I thank him every

day for my blessings. So, anyway, I got to know everybody

in Bermuda, got to know [Meg?]. I have adopted children in

Bermuda, they come every year, Touie will tell you, and

86 they're wonderful. And I have on that's graduating from

college this year. [07:00] So, they'll be going to the

graduation this year. But it's been an interesting trip.

LOLITA: And what do you remember about...

JACKSON: Sarah Ann, she's fabulous. Listen, I -- what do you

mean, she's tall and beautiful.

SHAW: (laughter) Not very tall.

LOLITA: No, I'm just saying, I was actually trying to...

JACKSON: What I want to say about Sarah Ann, what a blessing

that she carried on a tradition, good glory, and she

elevated to television. By that time, I was out of the

business, and I was so happy to see, and they played a

major role, I remember the day that they got you, Sarah, it

was over at WGBH, I think, in the...

SHAW: Well, WGBH, and then I went to WBZ, but I started with

stuff at WGBH.

JACKSON: Well, I mean, at WGBH is where they discovered you and

said we're going to put her on the air. [08:00] Don’t you

remember that? I do. And Paul, let's see, Paul Fox was

there, everybody was there. And we knew she was going to

be famous, and proudly so. And let me see, Shelby Scott,

Shelby Scott was crazy about her. She said she's -- I

said, "She's great." And she'd (inaudible) glory. And to

87 this day, nobody forgets. She's just wonderful. I didn’t

forget.

SHAW: I know you didn’t forget.

JACKSON: I didn’t forget you, Sarah.

SHAW: And I didn’t forget you, darling.

JACKSON: She did a fabulous job, and to this day -- and when I

mention her even to my children, they remember Miss Sarah.

Touie was so -- I said to him, "I think Aunt Sarah is

coming up." (inaudible) (laughter) You'd be surprised,

the impact that you leave [09:00] on people when you get

involved in this kind of business. You'd be surprised.

SHAW: If you do the right thing first.

JACKSON: Yes.

SHAW: You have to do the right thing, you can't...

JACKSON: You can't be a phony.

SHAW: No, you can't be a phony.

JACKSON: You have to be for real.

SHAW: And you have to care about what you're doing and

deliver a good product, all of that...

JACKSON: Absolutely.

SHAW: All of that is important.

JACKSON: Very important. And you know, Sarah, we were blessed.

SHAW: Yes, true.

JACKSON: We were blessed, girl.

88 SHAW: Yep.

JACKSON: Because there was a time when, you know...

SHAW: We were not accepted.

JACKSON: We weren't supposed to be doing that.

SHAW: No, you were very lucky, you broke in very, very

early, you were...

JACKSON: Yeah, it was in 19 -- oh God.

TOUIE: Had to be the '50s, because that's when (inaudible)

showed up.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

JACKSON: It was in the '50s, it was in 1950.

TOUIE: Fifty-five, '56?

JACKSON: No, it wasn’t that late, it was earlier than that,

[10:00] in the early '50s when I broke in, because we

didn’t -- let me see, Channel 7 was on -- Stan Behrens was

the head of United Press International, remember he used to

come over the house all the time?

SHAW: Oh, I remember that name.

JACKSON: Stan Behrens.

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: He used to come over my house every time he wanted a

break, a mental break, he's stop in at my house to talk.

Well, at that time, Channel 7 was in Kenmore Square,

remember that?

89 SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: And then, from there, we went to, gosh, bringing back

lots of my memories here. Then we went to -- well, [BC?],

I'll never forget, my husband would not allow me to...

(laughter) He said, "I don’t like that guy that's looking

out that window." (laughter) It's funny. [11:00] I

could tell you an inside story on that one. But, it's

fascinating. I never had any problems. And I was forever

promoting my people, as was Sarah. Sarah Ann, sure. I do

want to say this, don’t forget Harold Thompson, don’t

forget to mention him, I'll tell you why. He was the first

black to be in charge of the six New England states for

HUD, H-U-D, urban renewal. He made it possible for us to

keep our property in the Lower Roxbury, and a lot in the

Upper Roxbury, am I right, Sarah?

SHAW: Yeah, he did.

JACKSON: If it wasn’t for Harold, and he has covered, and he

gave every black student from Cambridge, where he lived, an

opportunity. In fact, he gave my niece, [12:00] whom I

educated, her position with the head of HUD, she's an

attorney, the head attorney for HUD in Providence today.

He has been very magnanimous in that way, to young black

people. He carried them along, when he rose up, he took

90 some of us along with him. Not many did in those days, you

know?

SHAW: Yeah, that's right.

JACKSON: They wouldn’t do it, Sarah, you know that. They

didn’t, but he did. So, he's a name that will live very

long in the memories of our history, as a key and a solid

black citizen. And Willis Saunders, and all of the people

that Sarah and I have been talking about were really the

foundation, solid.

SHAW: I found a clipping from The Boston Citizen, which was

formerly The Roxbury Citizen, which has Delbrook Bens

photorama, Delbrook -- [13:00] and Will Robinson, John

Robinson's...

JACKSON: You remember him?

SHAW: Yeah, John Robinson's father.

JACKSON: Yeah!

SHAW: And Ralph Coleman, world of entertainment,

(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) do you have any of

Ralph's thing, because Sylvia Simmons's daughter is trying

to do...

JACKSON: Ralph Coleman was the milkman, wasn’t he?

SHAW: No, he did the plays, Ralph Coleman...

JACKSON: Oh, that's right too, I was in his "Little Women."

91 SHAW: Yeah, do you have any of his stuff here, do you think,

because...

JACKSON: I might have, but Lord knows where. It's probably in

that garage.

SHAW: Sylvia Simmons's daughter is trying to do a film on

Ralph Coleman and drama in Boston, what was that other man?

JACKSON: Ralph Coleman and...

SHAW: Oh, Mr. Henderson, was it?

JACKSON: Yes.

SHAW: Yes.

JACKSON: You know what, Sarah, and you're going to love this

hat, I love this hat. I just happened to pass that.

(laughter) I love that hat. Me and my hats. [14:00]

SHAW: Nineteen sixty-eight.

JACKSON: I lost most of my hair at this age, terrible.

SHAW: Bill Buchanan, Boston Sunday Globe, October...

JACKSON: Oh, he called me the other day.

SHAW: Nineteen sixty-eight.

JACKSON: He lives now in Florida, and he called me up, Bill

Buchanan with the Boston Globe, he said, "Gretchen, I was

on my way to Boston, and I got to the airport, and they had

the nerve to want me to take off my shoes, and I told them

you go, and I put my shoes back on and went on back home,

92 and I wouldn’t go." But he's a swell guy, he was white.

He married a relative of Delbrook's didn’t he?

SHAW: I don’t know, but I know that...

JACKSON: Yeah!

SHAW: I know that Bill...

JACKSON: He was fabulous to us, he was very good to me and my

agency. And in fact, I have to say that about the entire -

- if you say anything about Boston, the Boston press was

very good to us, very. I mean it, they were very genuine

[15:00] and very good. They covered us with glory. I

can't help it, I have to tell the truth. And everything

that I ever did, and that Sarah did, I know. Because as

you can see, I have documentation.

SHAW: Oh, God, (inaudible).

LOLITA: So, when you think back, you know, some of your

interviews, or different events that you may have gone to,

what is something that just keeps coming back to your mind

again and again, is there, like, one or two that stand out

more than any others?

JACKSON: Oh, sure. I'm having to think about it, I just can

tell you that the interview with Johnny, with Diane,

fabulous. I remember something very interesting that might

interest you. Symphony -- do you remember Chi Chi, we had

93 a foreign-like, very dark-skinned girl on the radio [16:00]

named Chi Chi, she did the Hispanic sort of thing.

SHAW: Don’t remember.

JACKSON: That's Barbara Dawson right there.

SHAW: Yeah. Barbara -- Mr. Lomax and Barbara.

JACKSON: Mr. Lomax and Barbara, yeah. Show that to Lolita.

SHAW: Before she lost her eyesight, she's blind now.

JACKSON: Yes, she is.

SHAW: She took her...

JACKSON: Where was I? Oh, so much is going on in my mind.

SHAW: Looked like you were at -- I don’t know.

LOLITA: I think we were just about -- he's got it.

JACKSON: I'll have to invite you all back up here.

SHAW: I need to come talk to you about 558, which we haven't

talked about...

TUEY: Oh no, I got it.

JACKSON: Please come out anytime, Sarah.

SHAW: I have to get -- to remember about 558, and if you

have any 558 papers, because we really need that.

JACKSON: We have -- do you remember when I brought the relative

of Frederick Douglas, I found him and brought him to speak,

we [17:00] had a Frederick Douglas celebration, right in

the heart of my square. And he spoke, he was the keynote,

and he stayed at 558?

94 SHAW: I don’t remember that, it was before I got involved

with 558. I mean...

JACKSON: And [Billie Denison?], is she still alive?

SHAW: No.

JACKSON: When did Billie die?

SHAW: She died a few years ago, they moved down the Cape.

JACKSON: I know she did that, on Martha's Vineyard. She had a

place down there, I didn’t know Billie had died. See, you

get out here to these sticks, and you lose touch with

everybody, it's terrible. And let me see, what else did I

have to tell you? Billie Denison...

SHAW: Gertrude Smith is still alive.

JACKSON: She is?

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: Who else in our...

SHAW: She was on the front page of The Banner not too long

ago, talking about -- [18:00] you know, she's 100-

something, and she was talking about being able to vote for

Obama.

JACKSON: I got a letter for Obama, I sent him some money,

Sarah. I did.

SHAW: I'm sure you did.

JACKSON: Because I knew he was going to be president. Vernon

Jordan gave me a shout, he said, "Gretchen, what do you

95 think?" And I said, "It's in God's hand. And whoever gets

in will have divine power, and everything will be all

right." They try to touch him, but they can't. He came

out running, he did his homework, and I'm so proud of him,

but I certainly did get up off of some of my money and send

it to him, yes I did.

SHAW: Send some to 558, will you? (laughter) We need some

badly, badly.

JACKSON: Sarah?

SHAW: What?

JACKSON: Let me tell you something. Since I didn’t expect to

live to be 90, I'll tell you the truth. So, I said, "Well,

gee whiz, [19:00] what if I live to be 100, like my

father's brother? I better save my money." Because I

don’t have a man coming in the door handing me any. And

the smartest thing I did, I bought this house, and I paid

for it outright, so I have a mortgage, so I'm just like

paying my rent, you know? But speaking of money, that's

why I'm scared to spend money.

SHAW: Yeah, because you don’t know what this economy's going

to do.

JACKSON: That's exactly right.

SHAW: Oh, God, it's so horrible.

96 JACKSON: It's awful. And so, I pay my dues, I give money to my

church, what little I can.

SHAW: What church...

JACKSON: Episcopal Church (inaudible).

SHAW: Oh, here.

LOLITA: And did you ever, in Roxbury, could you tell me

anything about any of the churches that were nearby?

JACKSON: People's Baptist Church, let me tell you something.

People's Baptist Church, under Owens, Reverend Owens, they

have a wonderful woman that -- [20:00] do you remember

Coral Johnson?

SHAW: No.

JACKSON: Well, she's fabulous, she's down in Rockland, Mass.

Sweetheart, you should check her out, she started in that

area where we're talking about now. Coral lived there,

that's how we became friends. She came to my party, my 90th

birthday party, by the way. She is outstanding, one of her

daughters, about nine children she has, but they're

fabulous, and she worked for the state or the city in the

healthcare department. She is somebody that you should

talk to, she's lovely.

LOLITA: Well, we have about 15 more seconds on this tape here,

so I want to thank you for your time this afternoon, and

hope that we can come back and see you again.

97 JACKSON: It's been a joy, and I wish you would come again and

again. Just come (inaudible). I'd love it. Because I

love people, and I want to tell you, I think you're doing a

great job. [21:00] I mean that, and it's long overdue,

and I'm glad that I could help in any way, and thank you,

you don’t have to thank me, it's a pleasure.

LOLITA: Thank you.

SHAW: Was he -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

JACKSON: [Marcia?] Francis, she was one of my models.

SHAW: But she wasn’t related to Johnny Francis, was she?

JACKSON: She was married to him, she (inaudible).

SHAW: No, no, because the Johnny Francis I knew is still

alive.

JACKSON: Well, I'll tell you, the Johnny Francis she was

married to hated. (laughter)

LOLITA: I didn’t ask you...

SHAW: I'm talking about Vera -- you know, Vera's brother?

JACKSON: Oh, I see, OK.

SHAW: That Johnny Francis.

LOLITA: One of the things I've run into, I've found a bunch of

magazines of Pat [Rainey?].

JACKSON: Oh yes, I know Pat. She's fabulous. Her father was a

big wig in the state.

SHAW: He was judge, wasn’t he? Was he a judge?

98 (multiple conversations; inaudible)

LOLITA: He was a [22:00] judge.

JACKSON: He was?

SHAW: Yeah, I thought he was a judge.

JACKSON: Good looking man, oh my God, to die for.

LOLITA: Yeah, I found photos of him in the...

JACKSON: Is Pat still living, I love...

SHAW: No...

LOLITA: I saw something, I found something, maybe, three or

four years ago, she passed. She was not too far from where

we are now.

JACKSON: Yeah, that’s right. I lost touch with Pat.

SHAW: Touie?

TOUIE: Yes?

SHAW: You know, some of these pictures, you'll probably need

to sit with your mother and whoever she remembers, put

their names on the back.

JACKSON: I can tell you.

SHAW: I know you can tell, but without the names on the

back, it doesn’t do anybody any good.

TOUIE: No, if you send them some place (overlapping dialogue;

inaudible)

SHAW: They'll want to know who they...

TOUIE: I know what she's saying.

99 SHAW: That woman was...

JACKSON: That's Marina Taylor. We used to go to her

restaurant. That's Rosita Davis's, Hattie B. Hall,

remember Dr. Hall?

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: That's Miss Hattie B. Hall. [23:00] Mara McAdoo's

mother, who is this here, let me see.

TOUIE: Talking about Gladys?

JACKSON: Gladys McAdoo. That's Gladys, and this is...

SHAW: That's Gladys?

JACKSON: Yes, that's Gladys McAdoo.

LOLITA: You know, it seems to me, I mean, I'm just, you know,

mind wandering here, that you could -- you, just all by

yourself, could have a museum.

JACKSON: I know it.

LOLITA: All by yourself.

SHAW: But you know, it would really be important to put down

the names of who's on the back of all of these photographs.

JACKSON: You ain't seen nothing yet.

SHAW: I know.

JACKSON: I've got more, in fact, I got bags full. Let Touie

tell you, don’t I, Touie?

TOUIE: Let's not go into that. Thank God the camera's off.

LOLITA: Well, the recorder is still on.

100 TOUIE: Oh boy, I'll be quiet.

SHAW: Here's a picture of Laughlin Hewitt that she was

talking about, did you...

LOLITA: I would like to...

SHAW: Yeah. [Zeta?] Jackson and Grace Lane.

LOLITA: So, Laughlin Hewitt, was he the (overlapping dialogue;

inaudible) [24:00]

TOUIE: (inaudible)

JACKSON: No, she's asking about Laughlin Hewitt.

TOUIE: No, no, I'm talking. We're having -- sorry.

SHAW: Here's a picture of...

LOLITA: OK.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

SHAW: Grace...

JACKSON: That's Grace Lane, Robert Lane's -- that's Gracie.

SHAW: I know, but which Lane family was she?

JACKSON: Did you remember Gordon Lane? You remember Robert

Lane? You remember...

SHAW: Nancy, she's Nancy Lane's cousin or Wilma's cousin?

JACKSON: Wilma's cousin. And she was with the welfare

department for years, up in Upper Roxbury.

SHAW: Yeah. So, you want to take a picture of...

LOLITA: And that was -- London, can you hand that one to me,

please?

101 SHAW: Yeah, that's him. Oh God, I don’t know who -- I know

that man (inaudible).

LONDON: We've got names on the back of that one.

SHAW: No, just the names of Laughlin Hewitt, but there's

that other -- this man here, [25:00] I know who he is.

JACKSON: No, I don’t remember who he is. So many good lookers

here. But Laughlin Hewitt was my friend, I loved him.

SHAW: Here he is.

JACKSON: I don’t remember who that was, Sarah. Sarah Ann.

SHAW: No, of course I can't find that picture anymore.

LOLITA: I have a copy of just -- you know, the thing it says a

lot of reflection, I have it with me now, but I always

carry a portable scanner, so then you can, you know, copy

the pictures without the glare, and all of that.

JACKSON: Right. That stuff.

LOLITA: The people who come to see you, do they have...

TOUIE: They didn’t have a scanner at home.

LOLITA: They used the camera and probably had a picture stand?

JACKSON: They had a big tripod.

LOLITA: Picture stand?

JACKSON: Yeah, they had the whole nine yards?

SHAW: How did they get on to you, Gretchen?

JACKSON: I have a niece that was a producer at CNN.

SHAW: Oh, well, that's why, OK.

102 JACKSON: No, that's not why.

SHAW: Well, you had to [26:00] have someone inside to get

them to come out to do something, Gretchen.

JACKSON: I didn’t get them to come out here, I didn’t even know

they were coming.

SHAW: Well, she probably said something about my aunt,

that's probably how it happened. I was looking at that

picture with John [Byno?] and Frank Morris on it.

JACKSON: You think so?

SHAW: I think so, darling. Knowing a little bit about how

the world of television works, but I think that...

JACKSON: I'd want to know what you're doing here, I don’t think

all of that stuff -- I've had my day, I really have. I'm

grateful to God, but I'm tired now, I've had my day. I'm

tired.

SHAW: Don’t get tired before I come back out here (laughter)

and find out what I need to know, Gretchen.

LOLITA: No, I personally would still like to hear your voice

on the radio. You know, the way technology goes now, that

little recorder that we have right there, stereo recorder,

you know, you could record into that, plug into this

computer, this thing puts you on the internet, and there

[27:00] you are, live.

JACKSON: No kidding.

103 LOLITA: Am I right, London? Yes.

SHAW: What?

JACKSON: Did you hear what she said, Touie?

TOUIE: That's true.

LOLITA: You know, that's one of the reasons why I got this,

this allows me to theoretically have the internet wherever

I am.

JACKSON: I want you to hear my theme song though, you want me

to play it for you?

LOLITA: Yes, ma'am.

JACKSON: I want you -- that theme song is gorgeous. And it was

written by a black man, a black composer Eubie Black, who

wrote "Blackbird."

SHAW: There's Hazell. There's Hazell.

JACKSON: Yeah, that's right, that's her husband, too. Cappie.

SHAW: Yeah, that's -- Hazell was such a beautiful woman.

JACKSON: Oh, she was...

SHAW: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) She was a

beautiful, beautiful woman.

JACKSON: He's such a lovely young man, you must be proud of

your son.

SHAW: You know, Allen (inaudible) wouldn’t take me in.

(laughter)

JACKSON: Why?

104 SHAW: I don’t know! I'm just going, I don’t care.

JACKSON: What is the matter with people?

SHAW: I don’t know, and I don’t care. Oh, Arnold Hurley, my

God.

JACKSON: You know who my dearest friend was in the media? Let

me tell you about this. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)

SHAW: This...

JACKSON: That's the side of my drugstore, and Gary [Rixen?] did

the painting.

SHAW: And Arnold Hurley.

JACKSON: That's right.

SHAW: Oh my God, it's in the banner, October 28th, 1976

banner, and it's a picture...

JACKSON: Of the side of my drugstore.

SHAW: And they had painted a mural of Frederick Douglas.

JACKSON: For years that's there.

SHAW: Yes.

JACKSON: Until the white people came in. Excuse me.

SHAW: When did you all get rid of the pharmacy, what year?

JACKSON: When Doc died.

SHAW: What year was that? I can't...

JACKSON: Touie, when did Daddy pass, I don’t like to think

about it.

105 TOUIE: Passed in '88. [29:00] How I know, that's when I put

the pool in, that's why. Passed in '88, you sold the store

in '89.

LOLITA: (inaudible).

SHAW: Yeah, Arnold Hurley did a portrait of my father from a

photograph, from a photograph.

JACKSON: I remember your daddy, you had a wonderful father,

Sarah.

SHAW: Yes, I did.

JACKSON: You did.

SHAW: Yep. But, it was -- he did a picture of my father

from a photograph -- a painting from a photograph, and it

looked so much like my father that it's amazing that he did

it from the photograph. Hope you're not taking my picture

because I'm not...

LONDON: Just your hands, I know you're not camera-ready I

know.

SHAW: I'm not camera-ready today. I'm not camera-ready

today. (laughter)

JACKSON: Hazell.

SHAW: Yeah, but she looks -- no, I'm not...

JACKSON: I talked to her just before she passed away. [30:00]

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

106 LOLITA: So, I was going to ask, London, if I could take a

photo with the two of you.

SHAW: No, I'm not camera-ready today.

LOLITA: Sigh.

SHAW: No, I do not...

LOLITA: That's two of us!

SHAW: I do not let people take my photograph, except

casuals...

JACKSON: My hair isn't done or anything.

SHAW: That's right, I have no makeup on.

JACKSON: I know what you're saying, Sarah. You know, we were

(inaudible).

SHAW: I want to be looking cute. (laughter)

JACKSON: I can't (inaudible), Sarah. It may be a little, you

know, but... I did keep it.

SHAW: Yeah.

JACKSON: It's history.

SHAW: Yeah. This is the Mayor's Ball.

JACKSON: Yeah, Kevin White was my favorite mayor.

SHAW: This is John B. Hynes.

JACKSON: No, that came on the cabinet.

SHAW: But this is to celebrate a city, 1975, [31:00] master

of ceremonies was John B. Hynes, and Flavin was -- Richard

Flavin was the...

107 JACKSON: Dick Flavin.

SHAW: Yeah. Dick Flavin.

JACKSON: I remember Dick.

SHAW: With whom I worked. Oh, dear. Mayor's Ball

Committee, Mrs. Gretchen Jackson.

JACKSON: I don’t know where I found the time, Sarah Ann, I

don’t know about you. You're busy, too, but you... There's

an article here, this article, I'm very proud of, right

there.

SHAW: What?

JACKSON: That one, read that.

SHAW: About people?

JACKSON: The white folks tried to say that I was...

SHAW: White?

JACKSON: White, and I told them right out, and came in the

paper, the old Boston, no sir.

SHAW: Boston Post, which is...

JACKSON: I'm black, and I want my people to be proud of me!

(laughter) You need to read that article, it's a [32:00]

very interesting article.

SHAW: I was looking for this photograph that -- here's

Gretchen's...

TOUIE: Oh, here.

SHAW: You were Miss Glamour, I remember, you were always...

108 JACKSON: I liked to dress up.

SHAW: I know you did.

JACKSON: I like to dress up, to this day, I haven't put this

on, listen, I'm not lying to you, this is about 30 years

old. I got to have something with a little color in it to

look right, you know? Flop it out of here.

SHAW: Oh, here's the photograph I was looking for. So, I

want to show it to Laura, because I'll see her...

JACKSON: Go ahead, grab it for her.

LOLITA: London, you go ahead and do it.

JACKSON: Hmm?

LOLITA: I was talking to London. My father was a

photographer, and (inaudible). [33:00]

SHAW: Yeah, I'll try to prop it up so my finger's not in it.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

SHAW: I know, but I want to show it to someone.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

JACKSON: Girl, you don’t look a day over 35 or 40-ish.

LOLITA: OK, 40-ish, I'll take that, 40-ish, I'll take that,

that was 12 years ago.

JACKSON: You look so great. Beautiful.

LOLITA: Good genes. I also had an Irish ancestor that I just

recently found out about.

SHAW: Must've had some sort of ancestral stuff that...

109 JACKSON: Yeah, did you read that, did you read it in...

SHAW: I'm going to read it, I'm looking for this photograph

that...

JACKSON: This came out in the Bermuda paper, that article.

LONDON: Right, "So many fans of Gretchen Jackson have been

insisting, in the most vociferous fashion, that she is the

first and best of the women disc jockeys in this area that

have seen (inaudible) of the Hotel Somerset."

LOLITA: A little slower.

LONDON: "For, Mrs. Jackson has 60,000 fans, they are so

enthusiastic, that they have announced their willingness

[34:00] to go down fighting for her. This is remarkable

because two years ago, she was unknown. And no one could

be more eager than Mrs. Jackson to stress her former

anonymity. A handsome woman with sparkling eyes and a warm

manner, she moved gracefully through the flurry of her

radio station, WBMS, to (inaudible) caller. She's a plum

of proportions that become her, her hair is on the red

side, she's wearing a smart navy blue cotton dress, she

seemed to (inaudible) 90-degree temperature. 'We have just

moved from the Hotel Shelton to this plant house. We don’t

know where anything is, but the broadcasts go on as usual,'

she said with a pleased smile. She had just come off the

air. Her time is from 1:45 to 2:15, 1090 on your AM dial.

110 The telephone rang incessantly, people wanted to speak with

her. 'It's always like this, she said, I can't understand

it. From the day I first went on the air, an unrehearsed

one and a half hour program for another station. The only

experience I had with the public was helping out my husband

in his pharmacy in Roxbury. I could always tell things I

felt were essential, or things that I liked." [35:00]

JACKSON: Did you see the way I told them I was black.

SHAW: Wait, I'm going to pull it out.

JACKSON: You didn’t read that part where I said my fans want to

say I was one thing, I said, no, sir.

SHAW: "This, I would like to say, I've never tried to be

what I'm not, I am negro, and though others listen to me, I

always want my people to know that I am one of them."

JACKSON: That's right, because they kept trying to tell the

fans that I was white, that I sounded like a white person

on television -- on radio. And I said no sir. Proud to be

black. And I want all my fans to know it, I did, it's in

the brief, that was the biggest paper in Boston.

SHAW: Yeah, The Boston Post. And this is 1954.

LONDON: Fifty-four, what was the date?

SHAW: It is...

LONDON: August...

SHAW: August 2, 1954, The Boston Post.

111 LONDON: Let me get a picture.

JACKSON: (inaudible) people. [36:00] But I always felt that I

was helping my folks.

SHAW: There were all kinds of newspapers, there was a

morning Globe, and then an evening Globe, there was the

Post, there was Advertiser, there was the Herald, there

were like four or five -- when I was growing up, there were

at least four or five papers.

JACKSON: That's right. Sarah, you're looking great, girl.

SHAW: Thank you, darling, thank you. I'm trying.

JACKSON: I put that eye stuff on (inaudible). Take the bags

out. And the wrinkles. You know?

LOLITA: That's one of the benefits of being a woman.

JACKSON: Ain't it the truth? (laughter) Ain't it the truth?

LOLITA: I was thinking of that last night, I'm like, oh, I

could just make these disappear.

JACKSON: Make out the stuff out here. Now, you look at Joan

Rivers, but (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the minute

she dies, she's going to be a crumble. (laughter)

SHAW: That's plastic surgery of thousands and thousands and

thousands of dollars. [37:00]

JACKSON: I would never want to be that vein. You know what,

you're blessed when you can show that you've lived a good

life, and look like you do. I mean, I can put a little

112 stuff on here to take the, you know, what have you, but to

go through all of that to change, yeah, and look so phony.

Girl, she's twice my age, I believe. (laughter)

LOLITA: But you said she's going to crumble.

JACKSON: That's right, she's going to crumble, baby, let me

tell you!

SHAW: Oh, Gretchen, we have to leave you, darling.

JACKSON: I know, sweetheart.

SHAW: I'm glad I did my errands in the morning, because

otherwise, it'd be too late to get them done today.

JACKSON: Just close it up, Sarah, I'll take care of it.

SHAW: No, I'm trying to put it back, I hope these are acid

free.

JACKSON: I don’t know what they are.

SHAW: Are these acid free, Touie?

TOUIE: I have no idea.

SHAW: Well, they should be.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

LOLITA: They usually say acid free, if they are, they'll say

acid free somewhere on the side.

TOUIE: On the side?

SHAW: But it says Avery Polyview, it doesn’t say.

LOLITA: Then [38:00] they're not acid free.

113 SHAW: Well, they should be -- this stuff, you can buy them

at Staples, acid free, which means -- because all this

stuff should be in acid free, so it won't crumble, so it

won't degrade and disintegrate, so we've been trying to put

stuff at 558 in acid free stuff.

JACKSON: OK.

SHAW: Because...

JACKSON: Just close it up, Sarah Ann.

SHAW: No, I'm putting it back in -- thank you. At least

it's a little protection, there may not be -- I got it, it

may not be acid free, but at least there's a little

protection.

LOLITA: Oh, I almost forgot this, oh.

SHAW: You've got to sign the thing to say it was all right

for them to take your picture, Gretchen.

JACKSON: Oh, of course.

SHAW: I know that. I know, but you've got to sign it, just

to be. I know, but you've got to sign it, just to be...

JACKSON: I know, safe side. [39:00]

LOLITA: You too, Sarah.

SHAW: I'm not signing anything! (laughter)

JACKSON: Where do you want me to sign, sweetheart, right here?

TOUIE: Can you help understand this, Mom, I don’t know

exactly (inaudible).

114 (multiple conversations; inaudible)

JACKSON: Sarah, let me have that side.

LOLITA: So, this is print name of -- so, this is you, your

name.

JACKSON: I sign it?

LOLITA: Print it -- well, you can print it here, and sign it

here.

(multiple conversations; inaudible)

TOUIE: Can I help anyone with anything?

LONDON: Thank you very much.

SHAW: Touie, you need to help her find the stuff in 558,

please, would be kind? League of Women for Community

Service, 558 Mass Ave. [40:00]

TOUIE: OK.

SHAW: She says she has some stuff, and we really need it,

because we're trying to -- we're trying to raise some money

to renovate the building, you've been to 558, I know you've

been to 558.

TOUIE: Is that the building that somebody called you about,

Mother, is that what you're talking about?

JACKSON: No.

TOUIE: Oh, OK.

SHAW: It's on -- you know, across -- it's across the street

from where the Businessman's Club used to be, it's between

115 Shawmut and Tremont. You know, the houses that sit -- the

League has owned that address since...

JACKSON: You want me to put my address too?

LOLITA: Yes, please.

SHAW: The League has owned that house, that building, since,

like, 1920. And it hasn’t been cut up, it looks the same,

you know, it's like it was when it was first built, some of

the chandeliers, and...

TOUIE: They're still there.

SHAW: Yeah, it's still there.

JACKSON: And all of those draperies in the living room, I gave

them, they were my mother's.

SHAW: Well, those are long [41:00] gone.

JACKSON: You're kidding.

SHAW: Gretchen, how long ago did you give them the

draperies, darling?

TOUIE: Yeah, how long...

JACKSON: Well, my niece still has them hanging up in her house,

(inaudible) Milford, Mass, 01717.

END OF AUDIO FILE

116