Tuesday Volume 521 18 January 2011 No. 100

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 18 January 2011

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 679 18 JANUARY 2011 680

The Deputy Prime Minister: If we needed any House of Commons confirmation, this week of all weeks, that the Labour party’s commitment to cleaning up politics and political reform is a complete and utter farce—the leader of the Tuesday 18 January 2011 Labour party who, sadly, is not in his place, was going around the television studios last weekend saying that The House met at half-past Two o’clock he believed in new politics and that he wanted to reach out to Liberal Democrat voters—it is the dinosaurs in the Labour party in the who are PRAYERS blocking people’s ability to have a say on the electoral system that they want. There cannot be meaningful political reform with such weak political leadership. [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): One hundred years after the temporary provisions of the Parliament Act 1911 were introduced, some of us are impatient for Oral Answers to Questions my right hon. Friend to succeed in achieving an elected second Chamber. Can he reassure me that the grandfathering of voting rights will not be offered to newly appointed peers under the present Government? DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER The Deputy Prime Minister: The specific reference to grandfathering in the coalition agreement applies to the The Deputy Prime Minister was asked— staged way in which we want reform of the House of Lords implemented over time. We want to be clear House of Lords Reform about the end point, which is a fully reformed House of Lords, but the stages by which we get there should be 1. Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con): What subject to proper scrutiny and proper debate, and will process he plans to follow to develop and implement be, not least in the Joint Committee, when we publish proposals for a wholly or mainly elected second Chamber. the draft Bill, which we will do fairly shortly. [33928] (Tooting) (Lab): The Deputy Prime Minister The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): Iam has got himself a reputation as an habitual breaker of chairing a cross-party Committee to look at all aspects promises. May I ask him a simple and straightforward of House of Lords reform. We plan to publish a draft question, to which I hope he will give a simple and Bill in the coming period for pre-legislative scrutiny straightforward answer? In his draft Bill on the House by—we hope—a Joint Committee of both Houses. Then of Lords to be published shortly, will he keep his it will be for the Government to decide on the introduction promise of a 100% elected second Chamber? of the Bill. The Deputy Prime Minister: As the right hon. Gentleman Dr Lewis: Given that an all-elected upper House knows—he is a member of the very Committee that I would, in effect, double the number of MPs while have been chairing—that issue is still under discussion. resulting in hundreds of highly skilled and eminent men We will make our views clear, as he well knows, when we and women being thrown out, what effects does the publish the draft Bill. He talks about promises. Is that Deputy Prime Minister think will be applied to the the equivalent of the promise to hold a referendum on legislative process as a result of this brilliant idea? Will the alternative vote—a manifesto commitment made by it lead to greater effectiveness, greater prestige or just his party, which is now being blocked by the Labour more machine politics? party in the other place?

The Deputy Prime Minister: My own view, as someone Parliamentary Constituencies who has always supported greater democracy in the other place and greater accountability to the British 2. (Harrow East) (Con): When he people, is that the legitimacy of the other place would expects his proposals for fewer and more equally sized be enhanced. There are plenty of other bicameral constituencies to be implemented. [33929] democracies around the world that have two elected Chambers of different size with different mandates, The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): The elected even by different systems, which work extremely Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill well in striking the right balance between effectiveness currently being considered, if somewhat stalled by the and legitimacy. Labour party in another place, requires the boundary commissions to submit their reports before 1 October 2013. Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab): Of course, The Secretary of State or the Lord President is required it was the previous Labour Government who made sure to lay before Parliament an to bring that the large majority of hereditary peers were removed— the commissions’ recommendations into effect. nearly 700—from the House of Lords. Has the Deputy Prime Minister any words of congratulations for Members Bob Blackman: The majority of this House will certainly of the current House of Lords on the way in which they condemn the delays not only in this Chamber but in the are defending democracy against gerrymandering? other place. Does my right hon. Friend agree that that 681 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 682 demonstrates the Opposition’s contempt for equal-sized : It is not incurring more. constituencies and equal votes for people throughout the country? The Deputy Prime Minister: It is the choice of the coalition Government to say that we want to reform The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said earlier, the politics not in a piecemeal fashion, but in a meaningful leader of the Labour party said this very weekend that way. To introduce both the right for people to have a say he believed in new politics and political reform, yet he over the electoral system and to ensure that constituencies cannot control members of his own party in the House are of roughly the same size seems a perfectly sensible of Lords. Either he did not mean what he said at the way to proceed. That is what we will do, and I do not weekend, or he is too weak to lead his own party. Either think that the hon. Gentleman should be whipping up way, the Labour party cannot be relied upon to deliver the dinosaurs in the Labour party in the other place to political reform. stop us from doing so. Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab): Many reform-minded Members of this House are getting fed up with the right Act of Settlement hon. Gentleman’s attitude to electoral reform. He has broken so many promises in the coalition agreement, so 3. Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab): What why does he not separate the date of the referendum on recent discussions he has had with ministerial the alternative vote from the gerrymandering that his colleagues on reform of the Act of Settlement. [33932] Government are putting through? The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark The Deputy Prime Minister: We want to hold the Harper): I have had no recent discussions with ministerial referendum as soon as possible. We think that it is right colleagues on reforming the Act of Settlement. to hold it when people are going to the ballot box anyway. That will save the taxpayer £30 million. We Alex Cunningham: I am no monarchist, but does the think that that is the right way to proceed. We on the hon. Gentleman agree with me that, if we must have a Government Benches do not agree on the issue of AV, monarchy, women should have equality with men in but at least we agree that the British people should have succession? their say—something that the Labour party is now trying to block. Mr Harper: Ministers have already accepted that the Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con): My provision in the Act of Settlement might well be constituency is one of the smallest English seats. If I discriminatory, and I have already confirmed at the adhered to the principle of naked self-interest, I would Dispatch Box when responding to a previous debate, be supporting the status quo. Is it not right that we have not that we are doing nothing, but that discussions are equal-sized constituencies—equality for all voters so under way with other countries of which Her Majesty is that each vote has equal value? Queen. She is not just our Queen, but Queen of 15 other realms, and those matters have to be taken forward The Deputy Prime Minister: Of course it is. It has together in a careful and considered way. It is not as been a principle for political and democratic reformers straightforward as the hon. Gentleman would like to of all parties for generations that all votes should be pretend it is. valued in the same way. It simply cannot be right, for instance, that right now Islington North has an electorate Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I welcome that of just over 66,000, and yet 10 miles away in East Ham response. As the Minister knows, my ten-minute rule the figure is 87,000. Voters in a constituency just 10 miles Bill on that subject is to be introduced at 3.30 pm today. away have less value attached to their votes than those Will he confirm whether I could perhaps have that up the road. That is wrong. That is what we are seeking response in writing before the Bill is introduced? to remedy. It is a simple principle: all votes should be worthy of the same value wherever they are found in the Mr Harper: I look forward to the right hon. Gentleman’s country. speech introducing his Bill. Discussions are under way, as has been confirmed in this House and in the other Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): I know that the Deputy place. He knows that the Statute of Westminster states Prime Minister gets in a terrible lather whenever anybody that those matters must be amended in all the other has the effrontery to contradict him, but may I suggest realms of which Her Majesty is Queen, and it takes only to him that he could perfectly easily have his referendum a moment’s thought to see that that is not as straightforward on the day that he wants it by splitting the Bill? It is a process as some who would wish to move more perfectly straightforward. He said that the main reason quickly might think. for cutting the number of MPs is to save money. How does he reconcile that with the fact that it is costing Register of Lobbyists £12.3 million extra every year for the 117 extra peers he has appointed, that it is costing £11.2 million extra for bringing the boundary review forward, and that he is to 4. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): double the cost of the boundary commissions by making What progress he has made on plans to introduce a them every five years rather than every eight? statutory register for lobbyists. [33933] The Deputy Prime Minister: Cutting the number of The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark MPs will save about £12 million every year, and holding Harper): My hon. Friend should know that the Government the referendum on the same day as other elections saves plan to carry out a wide-ranging consultation later this us about £30 million. I do not understand why the hon. year and then to bring forward legislation in the second Gentleman wants to incur greater costs for the taxpayer— Session of this Parliament. 683 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 684

Rehman Chishti: Does the Minister agree that for the The Deputy Prime Minister: I would have hoped that statutory register to be effective and fit for purpose, it the hon. Lady would welcome and support the proposal must be robustly transparent? to hold a referendum on the alternative vote system, not least for the reason that it was in her party’s manifesto Mr Harper: I do, and that is a very important point. at the last general election. Lobbying is a perfectly reputable industry for making sure that the voices of charities and businesses are Chris Bryant: Split the Bill! heard, but it should be transparent so that people know who is talking to those in Parliament. That is what the The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman Government intend to do—mainly to clean up the keeps saying “Split the Bill” from a sedentary position. dreadful behaviour that we saw last year, which has We believe it is right to proceed together on reforming— resulted in some former Members having their passes [Interruption.] No—[Interruption.] removed. Mr Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab): The purpose of Deputy Prime Minister. Let me say to the hon. Member lobbying is to give further advantages to the already for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) and other Members that it advantaged. Is the Minister not concerned that already is not too much for the Chair to ask that Members treat lobbying has taken place between his Department and the Deputy Prime Minister with courtesy, whatever BSkyB which might have the most damaging consequences they think of him or his policies. for the people of this country? Should not these reforms be brought in quickly by the Tory-Lib Dem junta? The Deputy Prime Minister: I find it extraordinary that, as I said, just a few days ago the leader of the Mr Harper: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman’s Labour party said that he believed in new politics, but characterisation that all lobbying is to benefit the he is now using the oldest tricks in the book in the other advantaged. Members are lobbied all the time by charitable place simply to stop the British people having their say. organisations, charities and, as I found in my previous That is the worst kind of old politics I can imagine. role in opposition, those who campaign on behalf of disabled people, for example. It is important, however, T2. [33939] Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD): If the that such lobbying is transparent and that people know Deputy Prime Minister is to save the taxpayer money who is talking to Members of Parliament and members by holding the fairer votes referendum on the same of the Government. That is exactly what our statutory date as other elections in other parts of the country, register will achieve. how much longer can the board games in the other House continue? Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con): I applaud the Minister’s efforts, but will he consider proposals to shut The Deputy Prime Minister: As I reminded the House the revolving door between big Departments and big earlier, holding the referendum on the same day that business contractors, which leaves taxpayers ripped off people have an opportunity to vote anyway saves the and democracy diminished? taxpayer a considerable amount of money—£30 million. If we are to have a referendum on such an important Mr Harper: Processes are already in place to vet what issue, it is right in principle and in practice to do so on Ministers and former Ministers do after they leave both an occasion when people are invited to vote in any ministerial office and this House. My hon. Friend makes event. a good point, and those matters are being looked into and kept under review. I am sure that he will continue T8.[33946]JimSheridan(PaisleyandRenfrewshireNorth) pressing that point in his usual vigorous way. (Lab): May I ask the Deputy Prime Minister about the referendum on the alternative vote taking place on the Topical Questions same day as the Scottish parliamentary elections? In , the Electoral Commission says that it does T1. [33938] Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) not have the resources to hold both votes on the same (Lab): If he will make a statement on his departmental day. Will he agree to meet the electoral commissioner in responsibilities. Scotland?

The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): As The Deputy Prime Minister: My team and I are more Deputy Prime Minister, I support the Prime Minister than happy to meet the Electoral Commission with on the full range of Government policy and initiatives. regard to Scotland. We have always maintained that the Within government, I take special responsibility for the two votes are very different in nature. There are, of Government’s programme of political and constitutional course, practical issues with the administration of the reform. vote, which we are addressing. However, a vote for a devolved Parliament or Assembly and a vote on a Diana Johnson: Mindful of the difficulties that the referendum of this nature can easily be separated in the right hon. Gentleman’s rushed proposals for the AV minds of voters. referendum, muddled with the equally rushed boundary changes, are having in the other place, what persuaded T3. [33940] Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) him to insist on an electoral system that was not in his (Con): Does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that to manifesto, while abandoning promises that were in his restore trust in politics it is essential that we reduce the manifesto, such as votes at 16, the 3,000 more police cost of politics in Westminster, especially at a time when officers and the scrapping of tuition fees? so many people are struggling with increasing costs? 685 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 686

The Deputy Prime Minister: Absolutely; that is why I value and that all constituencies should be roughly the marvel at the Labour party’s objection to saving £12 million same size. I think that everyone in the country would every year by reducing the size of this place from 650 agree with that principle, except for Opposition Members. seats to 600. That is a modest cut of 7.6% which will bring the size of this Chamber into line with Parliaments Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC): A few in many other mature democracies. It is resisted only by minutes ago, the Deputy Prime Minister said that the Labour Members. proposed cut in the number of seats in the House of Commons was a modest 7.5%. How would he describe Ms (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab): the 25% cut that will happen in ? May I ask the Deputy Prime Minister about his Government’s actions on the national health service? The Deputy Prime Minister: It is all based on the By unleashing the biggest ever reorganisation at the simple principle that each constituency should represent, very time when the NHS faces a real-terms cut in its give or take a margin, roughly the same number of budget, he is posing a huge threat to our national health members of the public—voters—across the country. service. How on earth can he justify that? I do not think that even the hon. Gentleman would claim that Wales should somehow be exempt from that The Deputy Prime Minister: The only party in this simple democratic principle. House that wants to cut the NHS budget is the Labour party. The coalition Government have increased spending T5.[33942]MrsHelenGrant(MaidstoneandTheWeald) on the NHS. We recognise that if we want to preserve (Con): What action will the Deputy Prime Minister the very best of the NHS, it needs to be reformed in the take to boost social mobility in Britain? years ahead. Crucially, we need a people’s NHS— [Interruption.] We need an NHS that is there to serve The Deputy Prime Minister: We have already taken a patients, and is not a plaything of unaccountable number of measures. For instance, just this April, 23 million bureaucracies. That is why we are reducing the layers of basic-rate taxpayers will get £200 in their pockets, because unaccountable administration in the NHS and ensuring we have dramatically increased the personal allowance, that the people who know patients best—the GPs—have so that people who work hard, play by the rules and more say in how the system works. want to do best for themselves and their families get more money back. We have invested significant additional Ms Harman: Yes, it is the people’s NHS, and the money in early years and pre-school support, with Deputy Prime Minister has no mandate for the changes. 15 hours’ free pre-school support for all three and Even after the general election, the coalition agreement four-year-olds, and a new entitlement for the most said that there would be no “top-down reorganisation”. disadvantaged children at the age of two. We are delivering This is a smash and grab on the NHS. Will he make the the pupil premium, which by the end of this Parliament Government think again? will mean a full £2.5 billion of extra money targeted at the most disadvantaged children, who were let down by The Deputy Prime Minister: As it happens, in opposition the school system that we inherited from the previous we continually made the case against an over-centralised Government. NHS that was not responsive enough to the needs of communities and patients, and insufficiently accountable Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): The system to them. That is why we are giving more power, not less, by which we elect parliamentarians is enormously to local authorities, particularly in the area of public important. We should have a proper debate and discussion health, and why we are giving more financial authority in this country. If the Parliamentary Voting System and to GPs, rather than less, because they know patients Constituencies Bill is not passed through the Houses of best—[Interruption.] Hon. Members say “The private Parliament, how does the Deputy Prime Minister plan sector”, but it was the Labour party that rigged the to allow for a full 10 weeks of campaigning, as market through the introduction of independent treatment recommended by the Electoral Commission? centres to force private sector providers in the NHS. Through the reforms, we will ensure that there is a level The Deputy Prime Minister: It will be passed; we are playing field, on which public, voluntary and private determined that it shall be passed. It cannot be right providers can compete. that the Opposition, having failed to make their case in this place, are now using the lowest forms of foot-dragging T4. [33941] Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con): Does in the other place to prevent this Government from the Deputy Prime Minister share my belief that the will proceeding with the political reforms that the hon. of this House to equalise constituency boundaries and Lady’s party used to believe in. reduce the number of MPs should not be frustrated by the grotesque spectacle of former Labour Members, T6. [33943] Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) who have been rejected by the electorate, leading a (Con): Section 141 of the Mental Health Act 1983 filibuster in the other House? means that any Member of this House who is in receipt of long-term mental health care forfeits his seat. We The Deputy Prime Minister: It is indeed a spectacle to know that, nationwide, one in five people suffers from see on the television that former Members of this a mental health condition. No doubt the same figure House who were virtually monosyllabic here have become applies in this House, yet no Member has ever spoken at so very loquacious in the other place, particularly late at length about their mental health conditions. What plans night, to block a simple measure that was one of the does the Deputy Prime Minister have to follow the great campaigning themes of the Chartists in the century recommendation of last year’s Speaker’s Conference to before last—namely that all votes should be of the same repeal section 141 of the 1983 Act? 687 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 688

Hon. Members: Hear, hear. The Deputy Prime Minister: It went up because many people in Oldham East and Saddleworth and elsewhere The Deputy Prime Minister: As we can hear from the recognise that we are doing a very difficult job in reaction on both sides of the House, my hon. Friend difficult circumstances. Why? Because we inherited the has highlighted a very important issue, concerning a most unholy mess from the previous Labour Government, provision that the Speaker’s Conference rightly identified who have now forced us—[Interruption.] The hon. should be repealed. It is simply not right that under Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) might just section 141 of the Mental Health Act MPs lose their want to listen. We are spending £120 million every seats if they are detained in hospital under the Act for single day simply to pay off the interest on the debt more than six months. We will shortly come forward caused by his party when it was in government. That is with announcements to repeal section 141. enough to build a primary school every single hour. What waste. What a terrible legacy. Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab): Does the Deputy Prime Minister intend to propose Elwyn Watkins, his T9. [33947] Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): twice-failed candidate in Oldham East and Saddleworth, What plans does my right hon. Friend have to review, for the House of Lords? amend or repeal sections 3 to 18 of the Digital Economy Act 2010, which was rushed through so awfully by the The Deputy Prime Minister: I have not lent it any last Government? thought so far. The Deputy Prime Minister: This Government do not T7. [33944] Zac Goldsmith () (Con): believe that people should be able to share content The Deputy Prime Minister’s proposed recall mechanism unlawfully, but we are disappointed that the industry will apply only to MPs, and its use will be possible only has not made faster progress towards adapting its business with the permission of a narrow, parliamentary committee. models to meet consumer demand. I agree with my hon. Will he consider expanding the mechanism, to include Friend that there are legitimate concerns about the other elected representatives, and revising it, so that workability of some aspects of the Digital Economy recall decisions lie with constituents, not parliamentary Act. The Government are looking actively at those committees? questions now, and we will make an announcement in due course. The Deputy Prime Minister: The coalition agreement stipulates that we want to introduce a recall mechanism, Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): May I suggest to as exists in parts of north America and elsewhere, for the Deputy Prime Minister that the reputation of this those parliamentarians who have committed wrongdoing. House is being maligned during the debate on the It is important that it should not be a completely Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill? arbitrary mechanism; it should be shown that serious That is because Front-Bench spokespersons for the wrongdoing has been committed. We have recently seen coalition have continually said that we are not interested various serving or former MPs in court, with one having in the Bill in this place, and that we could have debated been convicted and been handed down a prison sentence, the amendments that the Lords are debating at the and the public have been reminded that they do not moment. That is simply untrue. I was one of 20 Members want to be left powerless when they see such wrongdoing who was standing during the debate in Committee on occurring. They do not want to wait until the next the Welsh constituency boundaries, and we were not general election to have their say; they want to be able called to speak. So it is simply not true to say that to force a by-election themselves. We will come forward people in this House are not interested in the excellent with the detail of our ideas on how to do that shortly. discussion that is taking place up the corridor. I hear what my hon. Friend says about wanting the mechanism to be extended to other bodies immediately, The Deputy Prime Minister: I wonder whether the but I hope that when he sees our proposals, he will right hon. Lady would characterise the debate taking recognise that we are taking a significant step in favour place in the other place as “excellent” if she were to have of giving people that recall power. a look at the foot-dragging that is now taking place on the Labour Benches there. I am sorry if she was not Anas Sarwar (Glasgow Central) (Lab): Last week the called to speak during the debate on the Bill when it Deputy Prime Minister spoke of “alarm clock Britain”. passed through this place, but, as she knows, there were Given the collapse of Liberal Democrat support in the eight full days of debate on the Bill, which was subject opinion polls and the complete rejection of the Liberal to the fullest possible scrutiny. Democrats in Oldham East and Saddleworth, will he heed the wake-up call before his MPs and party are forced to face electoral oblivion? ATTORNEY-GENERAL The Deputy Prime Minister: I heard the same predictions before the Oldham East and Saddleworth by-election—that The Attorney-General was asked— we would disappear without trace into complete oblivion— but our share of the vote went up. Honestly, the utter— [Interruption.] Rape Prosecution

Mr Speaker: Order. I wish to hear the Deputy Prime 1. Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab): How many Minister. I would happily hear him for longer if there specialist rape prosecutors there are in the Crown were more time, but there is not. Prosecution Service. [33907] 689 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 690

The Attorney-General (Mr ): The the Director of Public Prosecutions announced that the appointment of specialist rape prosecutors is the CPS would conduct a comprehensive assessment of all responsibility of local chief Crown prosecutors, who material in the possession of the Metropolitan Police appoint specialist prosecutors in accordance with the Service relating to phone hacking, following developments requirements of their area. The Crown Prosecution in the civil courts in cases taking place on this issue. The Service is currently unable to provide figures as to how purpose of this assessment is to ascertain whether there many specialist rape prosecutors there are in the CPS. is any material that could now form evidence in any However, the CPS has trained and appointed a significant future criminal prosecution relating to phone hacking. number of prosecutors as specialist rape prosecutors as part of a rolling programme in all 42 CPS areas. By the Mr Watson: Are the Law Officers confident that the end of March 2011, all training for 2010-11 will be CPS is giving the right advice? In particular, is it asking completed, and the information on the number of specialists the Metropolitan police to examine the separate secure will then be available. e-mail server used by News International executives of the grades of Andy Coulson and Rebekah Wade and Valerie Vaz: I thank the Attorney-General for his also to examine the existing illegally transcribed phone response. May I remind him that the Stern report said message made by Ross Hall for “Neville”? that nine out of 10 rapes go unreported? Given the 25% cuts in the budget of the CPS, will he assure us that The Attorney-General: The hon. Gentleman may have all those who have been trained by the end of March 2011 seen a copy of the letter written by Mr Yates, the acting will be in jobs? deputy commissioner, to the Director of Public Prosecutions. That letter makes it quite clear that he The Attorney-General: First, I can give the hon. Lady wishes to re-examine all the material collected in this a figure: 584 delegates are shown as having attended the matter and then to seek the advice of the CPS and the rape and serious assault training course between July 2008 DPP in relation to it. and December 2010. That might help to give her an idea of the numbers. There is no intention that the priority Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con): Does the that is given to this extremely serious offence should be Attorney-General agree that it is important for this in any way downgraded as a result of savings having to matter not to be just a witch hunt against the Murdoch be made within the Crown Prosecution Service. press, which is what the Opposition are trying to turn it into? The Information Commissioner’s report published National Fraud Authority some time ago made it plain that this habit of hacking and bad behaviour by reporters was happening across 2. Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): What the whole of the press, not just in the Murdoch press. responsibilities the Law Officers’ Departments have for Will he make sure that the issue does not become the National Fraud Authority. [33908] concerned only with the Murdoch press, but that the investigation is carried out on a wider basis? The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier): The National Fraud Authority is an of the Attorney- The Attorney-General: I am not going to be drawn General’s Office, which is the authority’s sponsoring into making criticisms of any individual in this matter. Department. The Law Officers are the Ministers What is quite clear is that the hacking into telephones is accountable to Parliament for the work of the agency. indeed a serious criminal offence, that the Crown Prosecution Service will apply the code of Crown Ian Murray: I am grateful for that answer. Given the prosecutors in order to weigh up the information and estimated £30 billion cost to the UK economy of fraud, evidence available, and that it is plainly in the public does the Solicitor-General agree that the coalition’s interest for proceedings to be brought against individuals spending cuts must not undermine the work of the where there is evidence that an offence has been committed. National Fraud Authority? Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) The Solicitor-General: I would agree, and they will (Lab): As the Attorney-General is aware, serious concerns not. have been expressed about the handling of the News of the World phone hacking investigations to date. The Phone Hacking announcement of a comprehensive assessment of all the material held by the Metropolitan Police Service is 3. Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab): to be welcomed, but will the right hon. and learned What support the Law Officers’Departments have provided Gentleman confirm whether he shares these concerns for the investigation by the Metropolitan Police Service about the handling of the case to date? Will he clarify into alleged telephone hacking and blagging; and if he what prompted this change in direction only a matter of will make a statement. [33909] weeks after the CPS announced that there was no admissible evidence on which it could properly advise The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The roles the police to bring criminal charges? of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service are distinct. The police investigate allegations of criminal The Attorney-General: The hon. Lady must understand conduct; the Crown Prosecution Service provides them that any investigation in accordance with the code for with advice, when requested to do so, and takes prosecution Crown prosecutors must take account of the information decisions. The constitutional role of the Law Officers is and evidence available. If evidence and information to superintend the CPS. The Law Officers are not become available that warrant looking further at a involved in the provision of such advice. On 14 January, matter, that is exactly what happens. In this particular 691 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 692 case, as I indicated in my first answer, information has The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): The Crown emerged in the course of civil proceedings, which gives Prosecution Service continues to assess the costs of rise to a justification and reason for looking again at the implementing the proposals to restrict arrest warrants material. That is exactly what the police and the CPS in private prosecutions. The service currently expects are going to do. any additional costs to be absorbed in current resources. I should point out that such private prosecutions relate Judicial Review (Ministerial Decisions) solely to cases involving international jurisdiction. Mr Love: What guidelines are likely to be set in 4. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): On how many relation to the time that the Director of Public Prosecutions occasions decisions by Ministers have been overturned is given in which to respond to private arrest warrant on judicial review in the last five years. [33910] applications, and will those guidelines take into account late notification of arrivals? The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier): Figures for the number of occasions on which decisions by The Attorney-General: By its very nature, the system Ministers have been overturned on judicial review in that is likely to operate when such references are made whole or in part over the last five years are not held to the DPP will involve extremely short time frames. centrally, and such information could be provided only The point has been well made in the House that it is at disproportionate cost. much better to go to the police and make a complaint, because the police can arrest, interview, search and Tony Baldry: Well, there have clearly been quite a conduct forensic examinations. If an application is made number. Does not the Solicitor-General’s response highlight through a private prosecution or through the DPP, all the fact that the concept and reality of parliamentary that is possible is for a person to be taken immediately sovereignty are often misunderstood and that, increasingly, to court. I have no doubt that the DPP will ensure that the last word on what Parliament has decided will not he can operate within a time frame that reflects the be determined here, but by the judges on the other side urgency of the matter concerned. of , in the Supreme Court? The increase in judicial review is a reality that is now part of our Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I welcome constitutional fabric. the fact that Ministers are dealing with the matter, and that they are doing so by using the DPP rather than the The Solicitor-General: I do not think that my hon. Attorney-General as the person to whom reference can Friend, who is an eminent member of the Bar, is at all be made. Will this be covered in any way by the confused about the concept of parliamentary sovereignty. superintendence responsibilities of the Attorney-General, Nor, if I may say so, is our right hon. Friend the or will it be clear that the DPP has an independent role Minister for Europe, who responded to the debate on in the matter? clause 18 of the European Union Bill last Tuesday. Judicial review has increasingly become part of the The Attorney-General: The decision will be that of legal armoury since the second world war. Ministers, the Director of Public Prosecutions. As in all matters, if whether of the present Government or the last, are not the DPP wishes to consult the law officers in relation to above the law, and it is for our independent judiciary to their superintendence, it will be open to him to do so. arbitrate, through judicial review cases, in disputes between the citizen and the state. The courts apply the laws Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab): Does the enacted by Parliament, and Parliament can make, amend Attorney-General not agree that the reputation of the and repeal legislation as it thinks fit. country would be better served if the current system whereby private individuals can seek prosecutions in Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Given the increase in the courts, or seek arrest warrants in the courts for judicial activism and, in particular, legislative activism crimes against humanity or war crimes, were preserved on the part of the judiciary, is it not important for us to rather than taken away and handed over to public examine much more closely the qualifications and officials? background of the individuals who are making these decisions, so that we can ensure that the judiciary is The Attorney-General: I think that the reputation of much more representative of the society from which we the country will be best preserved through proper and all come? targeted work by the police and prosecutors to bring to justice those who have a case to answer. The reputation The Solicitor-General: That is a point of view. I tend of the country will not be served if the use of private to think that judges ought to be highly professional, prosecutions is seen merely as a tool of harassment, and legally qualified and of the highest intellect. If the hon. there is no proper outcome from an arrest. Gentleman takes a different view, perhaps he will let us know. Human Trafficking

Arrest Warrants (Private Prosecutions) 6. Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab): What recent representations he has received on the effectiveness of 5. Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): What prosecutions in human trafficking cases. [33912] estimate he has made of the likely funding required by the Crown Prosecution Service to implement proposals The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier): We have to restrict arrest warrants in private prosecutions. [33911] not received any. 693 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 694

Lisa Nandy: Is the Solicitor-General aware that many The Attorney-General: We are doing a number of solicitors still face many problems taking instructions things. We are developing the recently launched cross- from child victims of trafficking who wrongly believe Government violence against women strategic narrative. that their trafficker is their friend? If the Government For the CPS, we agreed on a number of steps to are serious about ensuring that there are more prosecutions improve domestic violence prosecutions and the safety for this heinous crime, why will they not ensure that and support of victims, including specialist co-ordinators, every child who undergoes the gruelling, awful court guidance in respect of stalking, effective monitoring of process is afforded a guardian to represent his or her cases and legislation, and ways to improve communication best interests? with victims. In addition, guidance for prosecutors on stalking and harassment cases was launched in September The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to the hon. Lady 2010, and a new violence against women assurance for drawing my attention to the fact that someone of regime was launched on 1 January 2011. As there is not that nature is not available. I had hoped that that was enough time available now to allow me to amplify my the case. I will make some inquiries of the Crown remarks further, I will be happy to write to the hon. Prosecution Service to establish what assistance of that Gentleman with details of some of the things we are sort can be given, but it is fair to point out that the doing. courts and the Crown Prosecution Service already bend over backwards to ensure that vulnerable witnesses, be Mr (South Swindon) (Con): Will they children or vulnerable adults, are afforded every my right hon. and learned Friend do all he can to ensure possible protection so that they can give their evidence. that all Government agencies and Departments have a Without the evidence, we cannot have the convictions. unified definition of domestic violence, as there seem to be alarming differences in that definition between different Departments, and that needs to be remedied at the Domestic Violence earliest opportunity?

7. Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op): The Attorney-General: I am grateful to my hon. Friend What recent discussions he has had with the Director for bringing that to my attention. It might be helpful if I of Public Prosecutions on the Crown Prosecution have a conversation with him so he can identify in Service’s performance in the prosecution of cases greater detail where he thinks these current misdescriptions involving allegations of domestic violence. [33913] exist. I entirely agree that it is important that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. 8. Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op): What recent discussions he has had with the Director of Public Prosecutions on the Crown Prosecution Service’s CHURCH COMMISSIONERS performance in the prosecution of cases involving allegations of domestic violence. [33914] The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church The Attorney-General (Mr Dominic Grieve): Ihave Commissioners, was asked— regular discussions with the DPP on a range of criminal Redundant Churches matters. Domestic violence is a serious crime, which has real and lasting effects on the victim, their children, 1. Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con): Whether the their wider family and society as a whole. I support the Church Commissioners have made an estimate of the work undertaken by the CPS with other agencies to number of redundant churches converted to other uses improve the way in which prosecutions are conducted in the past five years. [33917] and victims are treated in such cases. The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): Luciana Berger: How will the CPS prosecute domestic In the last five years, there have been 117 schemes for violence cases in the approximately 10 areas where dealing with churches that are no longer being used as proposed court closures include specialist domestic violence regular places of worship, 93 of which have resulted in courts? their being provided for alternative use. Andrew Stephenson: I thank my hon. Friend for that The Attorney-General: The hon. Lady raises an important answer. St Mary’s church in Nelson is probably the issue, of which we are extremely mindful. Work is largest church in my constituency, and it has a 170-feet currently taking place within the court estate rationalisation high tower and spire. However, it was last used for programme, working in conjunction with the domestic worship in 1989, and it has remained boarded up and violence national steering group, to issue guidance in empty since its deconsecration. Although St Mary’s those areas where provision may be affected. The detail itself is now owned by a heritage trust, will my hon. of that will be finalised once the decisions and Friend tell the House what the Church Commissioners announcements are made. The CPS is absolutely determined are doing to ensure that redundant churches are put to to maintain the current quality of provision. good use?

Gavin Shuker: The Attorney-General acknowledges Tony Baldry: Nelson St Mary was closed for worship that the domestic violence prosecution rate improved in 1987. At that point, a decision would have been made greatly under the last Labour Administration. What whether to transfer it to the Churches Conservation measures will he put in place to ensure that it continues Trust as a redundant church or to sell it. It was sold in to improve against the backdrop of the 25% cut to the 1989, and at that point the Church Commissioners’ CPS budget? responsibility for the building ceased. 695 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 696

Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Does CHURCH COMMISSIONERS the hon. Gentleman agree that many churches can remain in use while adapting to accommodate other uses? Will he commend the work of English Heritage The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church and its field officers in trying to achieve that, and will he Commissioners, was asked— so organise the affairs of the Church Commissioners that they encourage and facilitate this kind of continuing useful worship? Christians in Pakistan Tony Baldry: Absolutely. Increasingly, churches are 3. Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con): being put to other uses, ranging from post offices to What representations the Church Commissioners have shops, and from centres to internet cafés. made in support of Christians in Pakistan. [33919] There are 19,000 churches across the country and in many communities the church is the most prominent The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): public building, so we want to make sure that churches It is a sad and terrible fact that Christian minorities are used as much as possible, rather than just for a who have lived peacefully in Muslim countries for couple of hours each week on a Sunday. generations are finding themselves subject to increasingly violent persecution. Churches have recently been attacked in Egypt, Iraq and Nigeria, and the assassination in Pakistan of Salmaan Taseer for defending a Christian ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE woman who had been sentenced to death was particularly horrible. The , the Anglican The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing Bishop of Lahore and, indeed, the Christian community the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission as a whole in Pakistan are working hard to foster was asked— inter-faith collaboration in Pakistan during this time of difficulty.

Voter Registration Rehman Chishti: Will my hon. Friend join me in paying tribute to the former assassinated Governor of 2. (Harlow) (Con): What steps the Punjab, Salmaan Taseer, for the work that he did on this Electoral Commission plans to take in respect of areas particular issue? Will my hon. Friend ensure that where voter registration remains low. [33918] representations are made to the Government of Pakistan to ensure that the excellent work of Governor Taseer Mr (South West Devon): The Electoral can continue? Commission monitors the performance of electoral registration officers using a set of published performance Tony Baldry: Salmaan Taseer was an incredibly brave standards designed to support the completeness of electoral man and his death is a tragedy for Pakistan. We would registers. The Electoral Commission advises and works all do well to remember the words of Jinnah, the father with local authorities that do not meet the standards in of Pakistan, who said in terms that order to improve their performance. “you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship”. Robert Halfon: I thank my hon. Friend for his reply. What I suspect every Member of this House hopes for is Where electoral registration officers are failing on the that there shall be freedom of religion throughout the ground, what specific powers does the Electoral world, and I am sure that, as a Chamber, we will Commission have to intervene? continue to campaign for that wherever we have the opportunity. Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend is on to a good point. The Electoral Commission has the power to make Christians in Sudan recommendations to electoral registration officers—after all, they are primarily responsible for concluding the 4. Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con): What steps the registers—if they are underperforming, but it has no Church Commissioners are taking to help support power to intervene and change the way that things are Christians in Sudan. [33920] done. This may be something that the House might like to examine in due course. Tony Baldry: The Church of supports the Episcopal Church of Sudan. The dioceses of Bradford Mr (Sheffield South East) (Lab): I do not and Salisbury have diocesan links to Sudan and have know whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that, peculiarly, done great work in the region to support the Christian electoral registration officers are not subject to the community, as has Christian Aid. Freedom of Information Act, so obtaining information from them if they refuse to give it is extremely difficult. Fiona Bruce: I thank my hon. Friend for that reply. It Will he examine this point, because it seems that all looks as though there will be a new state of Southern other local authority officers are subject to this legislation, Sudan, but it will face enormous challenges. Meanwhile, but electoral registration officers are not? Christian minorities in the north of Sudan will face continued persecution, as organisations such as Christian Mr Streeter: I am sure that the Electoral Commission Solidarity Worldwide have highlighted during many was aware of that point. I was not, but I will certainly years of work across Sudan. Will the Church of England take it back to the Electoral Commission and to the do what it can to support and protect Christians and relevant Departments to make sure that it is examined, other minorities in the north of Sudan, while also because there seems to be a bit of an anomaly. helping, where appropriate, in Southern Sudan? 697 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 698

Tony Baldry: My hon. Friend is absolutely right Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) about this. Minority groups in northern Sudan have (LD): Would the hon. Gentleman consider persuading faced persecution, which is one of the many problems the Electoral Commission to join the campaign for a facing people in the region. Most southern Sudanese democracy week—or democracy day—every year in live on less than $1 a day, the country has almost no March, ahead of the normal election cycle, as a very infrastructure—there are just 38 miles of tarmacked cheap and cost-effective way of raising consciousness road in an area the size of France—and people are about electoral registration and participation in elections traumatised by years of rape and killings. I am sure and referendums? that the Church of England and non-governmental organisations such as Christian Aid and Christian Solidarity Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend is always full of good Worldwide will give the people of Southern Sudan all ideas. Here is another one, which I shall certainly pass possible support. Indeed, it behoves all of us to do what on to the Electoral Commission. we can to support what may soon be the newest member of the United Nations as it sets out on the challenging road of nationhood. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS

ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing Commissioners, was asked— the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission was asked— Parish Priests

Expenditure 6. Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con): How many vacancies there are for parish priests in 5. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): What steps the rural areas; and if he will make a statement. [33922] Electoral Commission has taken to reduce its spending over the next three years. [33921] The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): The Electoral Vacancies are managed individually by each separate Commission plans to reduce its core costs by 27%, or diocese. The last clergy vacancy in my hon. Friend’s approximately £4.5 million, over the next three years, constituency of St Michael’s, Kirklington was filled mainly by cutting spending on year-round public awareness before Christmas after a short vacancy. work, staffing and offices. Miss McIntosh: I am most grateful for that reply. Sajid Javid: I am pleased to learn about the cost-cutting, Does my hon. Friend share my concern about the but can my hon. Friend reassure me that the Electoral number of rural parishes that vicars are asked to look Commission will have enough funds properly to promote after? What attention are the Church Commissioners the upcoming alternative vote referendum? Whatever giving to that vexing problem? one’s views on AV—I, for the record, am against it—we must ensure that the public are aware of the referendum Tony Baldry: I am glad to say that the Church does and its importance. not generally find difficulties in the recruitment of stipendiary clergy. Of course, it is for each diocese to Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend raises a very important decide how to organise parishes into benefices. I am point. Levels of public awareness about the forthcoming told by the dioceses of Ripon and Leeds and of York referendum on the alternative vote system are extremely that they do not have difficulty filling rural stipendiary low. The Electoral Commission has a budget of just posts. Clearly, the clergy find these appointments satisfying over £9 million for the main referendum, which will and rewarding. enable a leaflet to be distributed to every household in the as well as a wider public awareness Women Bishops campaign. Mr Andrew Love (Edmonton) (Lab/Co-op): With 7. Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab): 3.5 million voters missing from the registers, will the What assessment the Church of England has made of Electoral Commission give even greater priority to electoral the likely requirement for provincial episcopal visitors registration? With the difficulties faced by local government following the entry into force of any legislation and the likelihood that it might look to electoral registration enabling the consecration of women bishops. [33923] departments to make reductions, will the Electoral Commission ensure that the system is properly policed? Tony Baldry: Provincial episcopal visitors operate under the terms of the Act of Synod, which will be Mr Streeter: It is terribly important in this country rescinded if the draft legislation to enable women to that we try to achieve maximum registration of voters become bishops is approved and brought into force. It wherever possible. I encourage every colleague to visit will on any basis be at least two more years before that their electoral registration officer and quiz them on how stage is reached and there remain important questions they are going about this important task. If any colleague about how suitable episcopal oversight will be provided is not happy with the work of an ERO in any locality, under the new legislation and associated code of practice the Electoral Commission would be very pleased to for those with theological difficulties over the ordination hear from them. of women. 699 Oral Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Oral Answers 700

Diana Johnson: Given the general climate of cutting ability to make house-to-house inquiries and to inspect costs and removing superfluous posts, if the welcome other council records. However, my hon. Friend raises reform of women bishops is going to happen soon, an important point and sends an important signal to which I hope it will, should not the new flying bishops EROs around the country to do their job well. be grounded now?

Tony Baldry: The provincial episcopal visitors are CHURCH COMMISSIONERS there under the Act of Synod. Under the Act of Synod, the archbishop is expected to take steps to secure the The hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church appointment of up to two additional suffragans in his Commissioners, was asked— diocese to act as provincial episcopal visitors. As I have explained, even if the Synod gives final approval to the King James Bible draft legislation, the Act of Synod will remain in place for some time to come. We must keep faith with all sorts 9. Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab): What steps the of different groups in the Church of England until there Church Commissioners are taking to assist in the is a final decision on women bishops within the Church. celebration of the 400th anniversary of the King James version of the Bible. [33925] ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Tony Baldry): In her inauguration address to the General Synod, Her The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing Majesty the Queen emphasised the importance of the the Speaker’s Committee on the Electoral Commission King James Bible and the lasting impact it has had on was asked— the life of the Church and on the nation. The Archbishop of Canterbury also used his new year message to draw Franchise (Overseas Citizens) attention to the anniversary and enduring significance of the King James Bible. The 2011 celebrations were 8. Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con): What steps the launched at Hampton Court and the King James Bible Electoral Commission is taking to ensure that citizens Trust, chaired by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead resident overseas who are not entitled to vote are not (Mr Field), has been set up to oversee the programme of included on electoral registers for parliamentary events and activities planned around the world to mark elections. [33924] 400 years since the creation of the book that changed the world. Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon): The Electoral Commission has issued guidance to electoral registration Hugh Bayley: Hundreds of words and phrases in officers on the checks they must carry out to determine modern English came from the King James Bible, such whether to grant applications to register as an overseas as, “Eat, drink and be merry,” “Grinding the faces of elector. This includes checking evidence of the age of the poor,” “No peace for the wicked” and “Fly in the the applicant, their citizenship status and their relevant ointment.” York minster and the trust will celebrate this qualifying address in the United Kingdom. event in many ways this year, but what will the Church Commissioners do to make this a truly national celebration Tony Baldry: What I want to know from my hon. of our language and culture? Friend is what measures there are to make sure that returning officers and electoral registration officers ensure Tony Baldry: The Church Commissioners will give that those who are not entitled to be on the electoral every possible support to the trust because, as the hon. register—foreign nationals and others—do not simply Gentleman says, no book has had a greater influence on fill in and return the form to put themselves on the electoral the English language. It is a masterpiece of literature register because it helps them to get other benefits and that unites English-speaking people everywhere. Indeed, then have a vote although they are not entitled to one. a number of expressions are unique to the King James Bible, some of which are relevant to politics, such as, Mr Streeter: My hon. Friend makes an extremely “How are the mighty fallen,” “Set your house in order,” important point. He will be pleased to know that electoral “Be horribly afraid”, “A thorn in the flesh,” “Let us registration officers have a range of powers to require now praise famous men” and “To everything there is a extra information from people on the register, including season.” My favourite phrase from the King James evidence that they meet either or both of the requirements Bible is, “My father chastised you with whips, but I will of eligibility. Other measures available to EROs are the chastise you with scorpions.” 701 Oral Answers 18 JANUARY 2011 702

NEW MEMBER Points of Order The following Member made and subscribed the Affirmation required by law: 3.34 pm Deborah Angela Elspeth Abrahams, for Oldham East and Saddleworth. Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I know that you are always anxious that announcements should be made to the House of Commons first. I was very disturbed this morning to hear that the Department for Work and Pensions had made an announcement that voluntary redundancies affecting Remploy are to be made. There was press coverage in and I believe that a statement is being issued by the Department. There is a factory in Wrexham that has among its staff a number of individuals, some of the most vulnerable members of our community, who will be desperately worried by such a statement being issued by the Department. Have you had any indication whatever that someone from the Department will be coming to the House so that we can ask questions about the detail of the proposals? Mr Speaker: No. I have had no indication of an intention by a Minister to make a statement. If the hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied and he thinks that a procedural impropriety has taken place, first he may find other means through the Order Paper to pursue his concerns and to air his grievances; secondly, he might want to draw the matter to the attention of the Procedure Committee, which is looking into issues of this kind. Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Today we were told through the media that there would be no movement on a rural fuel derogation, which would have taken 5p off a litre in certain areas. In my Hebridean constituency, people have paid up to £1.45 a litre, which includes the recent, quickly implemented, VAT rise. Only 100 days ago, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury told a Lib Dem conference that “I can announce to you today that with my approval, Treasury officials have started the process of engaging with the European Commission on our detailed plans”. Can we have these announcements in Parliament, and get the relevant Treasury Minister to the Dispatch Box, so that we have a full and clear picture of what this Government are doing and a timetable set out, so that they do not shilly-shally for four years like the previous Labour Government? Mr Speaker: The hon. Gentleman has made his point with great force, but it is not a point of order for the Chair. I will leave it there today. Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On 20 December, I asked the Transport Secretary in this House about the Government’s response to winter weather in my constituency. The Transport Secretary undertook to write to me that afternoon with the Government’s reply. I have so far not received a response, and when I called the Transport Department today, the correspondence unit informed me that no letter had been sent. Can you help me understand whether I should expect a reply from the Minister?

Mr Speaker: It is possible that as a result of the point of order that the hon. Gentleman has just raised, the reply for which he is waiting may soon arrive. I can say 703 Points of Order 18 JANUARY 2011 704 beyond that only that the hon. Gentleman will have Succession to the Crown doggedly to pursue the matter if necessary, but of Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order course it is right both that Members should get speedy No. 23) answers to their questions and that promised letters to Members should be sent timeously. 3.39 pm Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): I beg to move, Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I believe earnestly that That leave be given to bring in a Bill to remove any distinction between the sexes in determining the succession to the Crown. this is a real point of order; it is a procedural matter. At very outset, I need to declare my interest. No, You may remember that in order to involve the House Mr Speaker, I am not one of those who is in line to the further in public appointments, there were introduced throne. However, I am a fervent monarchist. I believe only a short time ago pre-appointment hearings before passionately that the British monarchy is an institution people were appointed to particular jobs. I understand widely respected and highly regarded in this country today that the Secretary of State for Education has and greatly admired abroad and that the current occupant appointed a new children’s commissioner with no pre- of the throne will go down in history as one of the appointment hearing at all. greatest monarchs that we have ever had. This one-clause Bill therefore seeks to celebrate the monarchy and strengthen Mr Speaker: Off the top of my head, it is not a matter it, rather than to cause any mischief. of order for the Chair. What I would say to the hon. Gentleman is that the Select Committee that scrutinises For the past 300 years, the basis for succeeding to the relevant Department might well be interested in the the throne has been determined by male preference matter, and it is a Select Committee of which I think, as primogeniture. A product of the 17th century’sconstitutional a previous Chair, the hon. Gentleman has very substantial developments, the Act of Settlement 1701 enshrined experience. It may serve him well in the matter. men as first in line to the throne regardless of age. At this time, the next in line to the throne is His Royal If there are no further points of order, we come now Highness the Prince of Wales. He is followed by His to the ten-minute rule motion for which the right hon. Royal Highness Prince William. The Bill will not affect Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) has been waiting that line of succession. Only a couple of months ago, patiently and without complaint. the House joined the rest of the country in celebrating the engagement of Prince William to Miss Catherine Middleton. This is therefore the right time to look at the issue. Any daughters of Prince William would not succeed their father to the throne if they had a male sibling younger than them. Whereas that might have been acceptable in another age, I believe that at this time in our history Britain is a modern, egalitarian society and that this ought to be reflected in our succession rules. Thus, before any question arises over the heir to the throne, we need to resolve this now. History has shown us the need for absolute clarity. I have known for a long time, and the Leader of the Opposition discovered recently, that it is always better to know where we stand with respect to our siblings, royal or otherwise. At the centre of this debate is a great principle: gender equality. In Britain, we have had a woman Prime Minister and continue to see more women in the House, though we need even more. The reality is that the public want more women to take high office. The 2001 census showed that Britain is a majority female country: 52% compared with 48% men. The success of women is nowhere better reflected than in the monarchy. Three of the country’s longest-serving and most successful monarchs have been women. The 58-year reign of Queen Elizabeth I during that golden age, and Queen Victoria’s 64-year reign, when Britannia literally ruled the waves, are only two examples; another is our current monarch. Queen Elizabeth II has for 58 years led Britain through dramatic and significant changes in an outstanding and exemplary manner and will celebrate her diamond jubilee in 2012. Queens have served Britain longer and, some would argue, with more stability than Kings. It might be pertinent to mention that Her Majesty may never have become Queen if her father, King George VI, and her mother, Queen Elizabeth, had had a younger son instead of a younger daughter, Princess Margaret. 705 Succession to the Crown18 JANUARY 2011 Succession to the Crown 706

[Keith Vaz] As is required for a constitutional change of this kind, I have written to Her Majesty, the Prince of Parliament has in the past demonstrated its ability to Wales, Prince William, the Prime Minister, the Leader act against male dominance in the line of succession. In of the Opposition, the First Minister of the Scottish 1688, when James II fled the country, Parliament decreed Parliament and the First Minister of the Welsh Assembly. that he had “abdicated the government” and the throne I have also written to the Prime Ministers of all was offered to his daughter, Mary, and her husband, 15 Commonwealth countries whose sovereign is still the William of Orange, as joint rulers, rather than his son, Queen to ask for their support, as the right of primogeniture James Francis Edward Stuart, the Old Pretender. holds force in those countries. Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): That’s Today, I received a reply from Her Majesty’s private all right. secretary, who wrote: “The Queen has asked me to thank you for your letter of Keith Vaz: James was not a member of the Scottish 20th December with its kind sentiments about the forthcoming National party. marriage of Prince William with Miss Catherine Middleton. You made reference to the Bill which you will be proposing in Parliament Our country leads the way in equality issues, and that on 18th January to which you hoped Her Majesty would be should be reflected in our succession rules. Comparing willing to lend her support. our succession laws internationally highlights the It was most thoughtful of you to have alerted the Queen to advancement of our European counterparts. The House your interest and you can be certain that the proceedings in might often be wary of looking to our European partners Parliament will, as always in such matters, be followed here with to set the standards but, on equality in succession rules, close interest. As to Her Majesty’s own views, it is of course her I am afraid that Europe is ahead of the game. custom only to act in matters of this kind on the advice of her Five monarchies have already eliminated male dominance Ministers. In this particular case, the fundamental issue is one upon which the common advice of all sixteen of the Commonwealth and introduced equality. In Sweden, after the retroactive Realms would first be required. You will…be aware of the…British approval of equal succession rights in 1979, the older Government’s position as expressed by Lord McNally in the Victoria became Crown Princess over her younger brother, House of Lords”. Prince Carl Phillip, and she will be the future Queen of It is therefore over to the Parliamentary Secretary, Sweden. In the Netherlands, equal succession was adopted Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean in 1983 under the reign of Queen Beatrix. In Norway, (Mr Harper)—the Minister sitting on the Front Bench—to the adoption of equal succession rights in 1990 will not give his advice to the monarchy. allow Princess Märtha Louise to be Queen over her younger brother, but the rights will apply to his children. There are many champions of the equality movement In Belgium, a system that excluded females entirely in the House and many more outside. You, Mr Speaker, from succeeding to the throne was replaced in 1991, have been a fervent supporter of gender equality and allowing Princess Elisabeth to be second in line to the diversity within Parliament for many years. We have throne. The Danish public approved a referendum in heard much about the film “The King’s Speech” in 2009 whereby women could succeed equally to the throne. recent weeks, but let us focus today on the speeches of Sex discrimination has been illegal in the United our future Queens. We have a 21st century monarch and Kingdom since 1975. Some 35 years after the passage of we need 21st century succession rules to match. God the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, Britain’s employers save not only this Queen but our future Kings and must ensure equality between the sexes. Those who Queens to come, but let them succeed to the throne on break the law are rightly punished. The Bill attempts to the basis of equality—a noble and vital principle that bring such gender equality into our succession rules. should be the cornerstone of all political and public life. I commend the Bill to the House. There is clearly cross-party support for the Bill in the House, and I thank all the Bill’s supporters for backing Question put and agreed to. the measure. There is also significant public support. A Ordered, YouGov poll following the royal engagement highlighted That Keith Vaz, Lorely Burt, Lorraine Fullbrook, strong public support for equality in succession. More Siobhain McDonagh, Sir Peter Bottomley, Bob Russell, than 70% of those polled felt that men and women Valerie Vaz, Simon Hughes, Martin Caton and Nick de should be treated equally in the line of succession to the Bois present the Bill. throne. A poll last weekend in probably the most respected local newspaper in the world—the Leicester Mercury—also Keith Vaz accordingly presented the Bill. confirmed that view, with 68% of those who participated Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on agreeing that there should be equal rights to succession. Friday 13 May, and to be printed (Bill 133). 707 18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 708

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill but “immediately” has now extended to 100 years of failure to introduce a popular rather than an hereditary [Relevant documents: The Second Report from the Political form, although not all elements of heredity remain in and Constitutional Reform Committee, Fixed-term the upper House. The 1911 Act still allows the House of Parliaments Bill, HC 436, and the Government’s response, Commons to get through major constitutional reforms Cm 7951.] that the House of Lords may oppose. Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Committee The reason for introducing my new clause to exempt purely the first section of the Bill—the bit that limits the New Clause 3 life of a Parliament specifically to five years, rather than continuing with the flexibility that we have previously APPLICATION OF PARLIAMENT ACT 1911 TO SECTION 1 had—is that this is a crucial constitutional development ‘(1) The Parliament Act 1911 is amended as follows. that we should be careful about changing, willy-nilly, as coalitions come and go. Our constitution should be (2) In section 2(1), after “five years”, there is inserted “or a Bill amending section 1 of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011”.’.— safeguarded and preserved; it is not something that (Jacob Rees-Mogg.) should be treated lightly or in an airy-fairy fashion—and Brought up, and read the First time. one thing that the House of Lords can do, and do extraordinarily well, is prevent that from happening. 3.50 pm By the way, it is notable that their lordships sat throughout last night, fulfilling their proper constitutional Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con): I role of ensuring that a serious constitutional change is beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time. properly debated and reviewed. We in this House find that guillotines come crashing down upon our necks to Mr Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss prevent the detailed deliberation that some of us might new clause 5—Expiry and revival of section 2— like over a rapid raft of changes to the constitution, but ‘(1) Section 2 expires when the Parliament summoned to meet their lordships—some of whom are not in their first in May 2010 dissolves. youth—have stayed up overnight, battling for the great (2) In the course of the first month of the day of first meeting British constitution, which has served us extraordinarily of any Parliament after the expiry of section 2 as a result of well for hundreds of years. Looking upon their lordships subsection (1) above, the Minister may by order bring the section as the guardians of the constitution is a good reason for back into force for the remainder of that Parliament. ensuring that the measure cannot be changed without (3) An order made under subsection (2) above is to be made by their consent and approval. statutory instrument and shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of the House of Commons. Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): (4) If no order has been made under subsection (2) above, an I have listened quite attentively to the hon. Gentleman’s early parliamentary general election is to take place only if the quite interesting opening remarks. Will he clarify something House has passed a motion that there should be an early for me? If a party’s manifesto—I appreciate that this is parliamentary general election. a bizarre concept for Liberal Democrats—contained a (5) The polling day for an early parliamentary general election plan to reduce the length of a Parliament, should the under subsection (4) above is to be the day appointed by Her House of Lords have the opportunity effectively to veto Majesty by proclamation on the recommendation of the Prime the will of the people? Minister. (6) If a polling day is appointed under subsection (5) above, the Jacob Rees-Mogg: That is a very helpful intervention, reference in section 1(4) to the polling day for a parliamentary and I thank the hon. Gentleman for it. I think the general election appointed under section 2(6) shall be construed House of Lords would almost certainly follow the as if referring to a day appointed under subsection (5) above.’. Salisbury convention in that respect, and it would be wrong of it to go against the clearly expressed will, in a Jacob Rees-Mogg: May I begin by thanking the Minister manifesto, of the lower House. The point of this measure for the enormous courtesy, good manners and good is as a protection and a safeguard, not as a die-in-the-ditch temper with which he has responded to the many criticisms stalling method to prevent any reform in future. It may of the Bill? I, among others, do not think it the best Bill be that, had I been around in 1911, I would have been ever to have come before Parliament, but he has invariably all in favour of dying in a ditch to prevent reform, but I answered questions kindly. I also thank the Clerks for was not, and that is not the purpose of the new clause. warning me that I was, in their terminology, to “open the batting” in this debate, which I might not otherwise It is worth noting that the Bill is not subject to the have known. As far as cricketing metaphors go, I am Parliament Act 1911. The reason for that is that it probably more of a night watchman than a Geoffrey extends the life of Parliament, potentially. It gives the Boycott, or Somerset’s own Trescothick, but I shall bat Prime Minister the discretion—the ability—to extend on with regard to the Parliament Act 1911 and my new the life of a Parliament from five years to a maximum of clause in relation to it. five years and two months. As we all know, the Parliament The 1911 Act, as the hon. Member for Chippenham Act requires that that can be done only with the consent (Duncan Hames) reminded us earlier today, was introduced, of the House of Lords, and cannot be pushed through broadly, as a temporary measure. The preamble to the if that consent were refused. Act says: That leads me on to the reason why that was in the “whereas it is intended to substitute for the House of Lords as it Parliament Act. Why was it thought sensible in 1911, at present exists a Second Chamber constituted on a popular when the Liberals were last in independent government— instead of hereditary basis, but such substitution cannot be although they had some Irish help—to put in a clause immediately brought into operation”, that safeguarded the length of time that a Parliament 709 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 710

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] I would like to see the House of Lords maintain its ability to delay. “Filibuster” may be a good word. I am could sit? It was done to prevent a tyranny of the lower hoping that the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) House—to prevent a lower House from extending its will give us a definition of “filibuster”. He has given us life or changing its ability to serve for a particular time regular definitions of the word “gerrymander”, and it is whenever it felt like it. rather an expertise of his. I hope that “filibuster” may The relevant section is section 2, which states: be defined later on. I think it important that that right to delay be preserved, “If any Public Bill (other than a Money Bill or a Bill containing any provision to extend the maximum duration of Parliament and that the House of Lords should have it. As I have beyond five years) is passed by the House of Commons…” said, that House has the crucial constitutional function of protecting our constitution from what Lord Hailsham So any Bill which extends the life of Parliament beyond referred to as elective dictatorship. I do not think that five years is excluded from the functioning of the Parliament we have elective dictatorship, but I do not think that it Act. That is relevant to this Bill, because it changes the would be impossible to get to it, and that means that we basis on which the lifetime of a Parliament is calculated. must preserve some elements of the constitution on It would therefore be logical to say that the safeguard in which the House of Lords will have the final say, as if the 1911 Act should be extended to it too, so that it is on an Act prior to 1911. clear that a new Government cannot come in and play fast and loose with the new Act. It would also give 4pm clarity to the Government’s purpose. I said that I thought the new clause was a test of the Many of us want to know whether the Act—or Bill, Government’s seriousness about the Bill, but another as it currently is—is about coalition and about two test of that is in new clause 5, which my hon. Friend the parties which, over a weekend in early May, were deeply Member for Stone (Mr Cash) will speak to shortly. It is distrustful of each other, or whether it is about major broadly the same test, but the other way round. It says constitutional reform that it is thought will improve the to Her Majesty’s Government, “If you think that this is settlement and the democracy of our nation. really for only one Parliament and that is the be-all and The reason why I mention the weekend in May when end-all, so that it really is about coalition and keeping the parties may have distrusted each other is that I have two parties that were mistrustful but are now devoted a feeling that that distrust has broadly evaporated. partners together, the Bill will not be needed in its I think there is now great fellow feeling, at least in the current form for future Parliaments.” hierarchies of the two parties, between the two sides It seems to me that Her Majesty’s Government are in that they work well together and are committed to some an either/or situation; they are between a rather friendly major reforms. The Liberal Democrats have made some Scylla, which is me, and the perhaps more hostile Charybdis, admirable and brave decisions, particularly in relation which is my hon. Friend the Member for Stone. If they to tuition fees, that have shown that their heart is in the think that the Bill is not a serious Bill but is just for the right place in terms of the coalition, and how they have short term of coalition, they will reject my new clause, been willing to sacrifice part of their manifesto for it. but that means that they ought to accept my hon. Friend’s new clause, as he is saying that it is clearly a short-term Bill that should last only for the duration of Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Did the this Parliament. They must consider that in their response. hon. Gentleman hear the severe criticism expressed by the Deputy Prime Minister at Deputy Prime Minister’s Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) questions concerning the activities of the other House (SNP): Does the hon. Gentleman imagine that the last night? Government would be on such strong ground in trying to railroad things through without the support of both Jacob Rees-Mogg: The hon. Gentleman is right to Houses if they had reformed the upper House before raise that issue. I did hear what the Deputy Prime starting to tinker with this place? Minister said about the upper House. Most unusually— Jacob Rees-Mogg: The reform of the other place will because in the spirit of coalition I usually find that I be a matter of great interest, although it is worth hang on every word of the Deputy Prime Minister in bearing in mind that the 1911 Act specifically states that almost entire agreement with it—I had to divert from it is to be in place only until the other place is reformed. him on that occasion. I have always thought that When that time comes, this House will no doubt want Governments make a mistake when they think that they to bear in mind how that Act can be reformed in will always be in government, and therefore that it response to the reform, depending on what is done to ought always to be easy to pass legislation. the other House. Some hon. and right hon. Members, I think it ought to be difficult to pass legislation, and indeed some hon. and right hon. Friends, might be because we will not always be in power, yet we represent concerned about the powers that this House would lose 40% of the electorate. Labour will not always be in if the 1911 Act were reformed wholesale. power either, yet it represents 40% of the electorate. New clause 3 has another important purpose. Lord Those large minorities ought always to be taken into Justice Laws, in the Thoburn case, which was well account—and the one power that they have is the power known in the popular press as the metric martyrs case, to delay.It was a great mistake of the previous Government developed a doctrine of constitutional laws, in which he to allow our proceedings to be so truncated. That included devolution to Scotland. He would no doubt means that now the present Government are, regrettably, also regard an independence Act, too, as a constitutional doing the same on constitutional issues. That is the law, which will be of interest to the hon. Gentleman inevitable consequence of what happened between 1997 who represents the Western Isles—I am afraid that I and 2010. must still pronounce it as such, but I hope to learn. The 711 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 712

European Communities Act 1972 is viewed as a Government to carry on, reform had to take place. constitutional Act, as is the Bill of Rights. Lord Justice After he put metal shutters in Apsley house because of Laws argued that those have a special place in the legal the riots that had occurred, he knew that reform had to hierarchy and cannot be amended by implication. That take place. means that they cannot be impliedly repealed, but only In 1911 even Lord Curzon eventually decided that specifically repealed. That was quite a constitutional the reform Bill had to go through, rather than having leap and a novel concept, but one that I think Governments the House of Lords flooded with a whole new batch of have found useful, because it eases their path when peers who would have pushed it through—[Interruption.] changing other laws. They were Liberal peers. Most of them, however, become If we have developed this new view of constitutional Conservative over the generations; it is the great advantage laws that are superior laws—a sort of law greater than of the hereditary system. The Bill was deeply opposed. the ordinary Bills that this House and the other place Lord Willoughby de Broke was one of the great leaders pass—it seems to me that it would be better if that were of the opposition to that reform, and the House of decided by Parliament, rather than by the courts at a Lords has had that job and done it extraordinarily well, later date. That is one thing that the new clause would at making sure that our constitution changes not as it has least indicate. It would say that a Bill is so important done in recent years—which is a grave error—according and relevant, because it will determine how elections to the will of a small clique in Downing street, but will be carried out, that it cannot be amended except because within it there has been some important flaw with specific approval. Clearly, it would therefore be that, with the support of the whole British nation, has difficult for it to be impliedly repealed. needed improving. That brings me to the nub of the matter, and of the I do not think that my new clause will make this Bill new clause. Constitutional change is the most important perfect, because one cannot make a silk purse out of a duty of this House, because when we change the cycle sow’s ear, but it would at least make this sow’s ear one of election we change it in a way that means that we that could not be chopped up into sausages. could have very different Governments. Just think what might have happened if we had had a general election in Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): Is not the 2007. Who might have won if that had been the electoral hon. Gentleman’s panegyric on the House of Lords, cycle? and its great ability to defend our constitution by ensuring The right to an election is the fundamental right of further discussion, really dedicated to defending the the British people, with their democratic ability to decide interests of the Conservative party? who forms the Government, so can it possibly be right for one Government to come in and say of a Parliament, Jacob Rees-Mogg: I think that I am defending just as “It’ll be five years,” the next to come in and say, “Oh, much the interests of the socialists of Great Grimsby actually, four years would be better,” and the one after and other places, because it is not in the interest of the that to say “Six,” which would still be covered by the voters of Great Grimsby to have Governments who exemption from the Parliament Acts, and to play around come in and play fast and loose with the constitution; with the constitution—with the democratic rights of that is a really bad idea. The hon. Gentleman has been a the British people—in a way that involves no checks on most distinguished advocate of less European intrusion them and no ability to say that that is now the settled in our affairs. [HON.MEMBERS: “Hear, hear!”] As is obvious, will of Parliament and of the British people? he has the respect of the whole House for that, but I think that in the House of Lords, as it currently is or Governments have been able to play fast and loose with in any reform of it, we have absolutely the right body to our constitution in a European context because there say, as the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife has been no check from the upper House, and because (Thomas Docherty) suggested, “Hold on. You did not anything, ultimately, can be jammed through under the have this in a manifesto. This is an inappropriate way of Parliament Act 1911. changing our constitution, without the consent of the With this Bill, I want to begin to say—I have proposed British people and without a referendum, which might the same change to the European Union Bill before the be a better way of doing it, so we are blocking you until House—that such important constitutional changes need you have had a referendum—until some big constitutional much deeper and broader support than that of some, to result has been found.” The Lords have done that use the late Sir Robin Day’s term, “here today, gone before. tomorrow” politicians. We need constitutional change The House of Lords has been a block on constitutional that is in the historic continuum of our great nation. reform, and that is a good thing. Some hon. Members might think that a peculiar thing to say, but it means Mr (Harwich and North Essex) (Con): that reform is properly thought through and developed. It seems to me that what my hon. Friend is very ably I am not going to go back to the exclusion crisis and saying is that the Government cannot have it both ways. Lord Halifax’s wonderful speech to prevent the Exclusion Either they believe in a Fixed-term Parliaments Bill that Bill going through, but that was a very early example of requires future Governments to fix their parliamentary the House of Lords taking a strong constitutional terms, and should therefore accept the new clause and stance, protecting the rights of an hereditary monarchy remove the room for manoeuvre, or this is just a Bill of to follow the correct path and—the bonus from my political convenience, they do not want fixed-term point of view—being very pro-Catholic. Certainly, however, Parliaments and intend to retain the flexibility. before 1832 the House of Lords blocked every reform, and it did so until it was clear that the whole of the Jacob Rees-Mogg: I am enormously grateful to my British people wanted such reform to take place. Indeed, hon. Friend for putting pithily in one intervention what the Duke of Wellington realised that for the King’s it has taken me, I fear, 20 minutes to say. He is absolutely 713 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 714

[Jacob Rees-Mogg] Opposition could not possibly support it. Without making any further remarks, I will now let the hon. Member for right that Her Majesty’s Government cannot have it Stone (Mr Cash) speak to his amendment. both ways. Either the Bill is serious and important, in which case it should be exempt from the Parliament 4.15 pm Act 1911, or it is simply the contract for a marriage of convenience and so should fall at the next general Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con): The simple reason election. why I am speaking to my amendment is that, as I indicated on Second Reading, I take the gravest exception to the Bill, for a variety of reasons. Thomas Docherty: I will keep my remarks suitably brief. I was fascinated by the introductory remarks of Mr Speaker: Order. I am loth to interrupt the hon. the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees- Gentleman, to whom I look forward to listening, but Mogg). I do not think that he had the pleasure, Mr Speaker, just for clarification, as I think he knows, we are not of hearing your October lecture to the Hansard Society debating an amendment; we are debating a group of on the Parliament Act 1911. Had he heard it—I believe two new clauses. It is to the new clauses that he is that it is repeated continually at weekends on the BBC speaking. Parliament channel—he would have a much better understanding of the purpose of the 1911 Act. I do not Mr Cash: Yes, indeed. I am seeking to amend the Bill propose to give a blow-by-blow account of that lecture. through a new clause, and I am grateful to you for I was interested by a recent interview that the hon. making that subtle distinction, Mr Speaker. Gentleman gave to The House magazine—a fine tome The point is that the title of the Bill is a give-away. It that I am sure all hon. Members read. He described refers to “Parliaments”; it does not refer to “Parliament”. himself as a Peelite: Therefore, there is an underlying assumption that the “I believe in free-trade, sound money and the state being less process in question—which is inevitably tied up with onerous upon the subject than it has been in recent years.” the concept of the coalition politics, which are increasingly regarded as a perpetual burden that we will be expected Having listened to him with interest, I suggest, to extend to comply with—is inherent in the arrangements for the the coalition metaphor, that he is more of a Palmerstonite, proposals in the Bill. The use of the word “Parliaments”, because Palmerston was a great fan of the Great Reform in the plural, simply emphasises that. Act of 1832, as I am sure you know, Mr Speaker. He believed that the 1832 Act was, to use the American As one who believes firmly in the idea that our phrase, “a perfect union”, and that no further reform constitutional arrangements have stood us in good stead was required for the Houses of Parliament or the country. for a long time, but without being obtuse about the need I cannot help suspecting that the hon. Gentleman would for reform, I would say that there are changes in our regard himself as being in the tradition that believes constitutional arrangements that, periodically, can be that the Parliament Act 1911 gave us a perfect union justified. However, my proposal is, effectively, a “stop and that no further changes should be supported. and restart” provision. That is, if there is any merit in continuing the arrangements, if they were to survive for I was particularly concerned to hear the hon. Gentleman as long as the period allocated by the leaders of the say that unless the whole country supported a constitutional parties and the coalition agreement, then there is always change—I think that was the phrase he used—we should the possibility—to put it no higher than that—of referring not have further change. I say to him gently that, despite to some of those outside this place who, as far as I am the immense popularity of his Prime Minister, I cannot concerned, are the most important people of all, namely foresee a day in which even the great Conservative party our electors, and not leaders of parties or parties themselves. will convince the whole country to support constitutional The real question is: what do the public think about all change. I suspect that he may be setting the bar a little this? Of course, they have not been asked; indeed, there too high. Traditionally, if this House is given a clear is not the slightest intention that they should be asked. mandate by the people through a general election, that What I am suggesting is that the very concept of a is regarded as sufficient impetus for a constitutional fixed-term Parliaments Bill is offensive to the hallowed reform. principle—that simple constitutional proposition—that The hon. Gentleman rightly pointed to the exceptions no Parliament can bind its successors. I have therefore in the Parliament Act 1911 for money Bills —it is decided—I am glad to be joined by a number of other interesting that his forebears in the House were keen to hon. Members in this notion—that we should have exempt the ability of Governments to push through the what we describe in the title of new clause 5, namely the raising of revenue from the people—and for the lengthening “Expiry and revival of section 2”. I happen to hope that of Parliaments. It is juggling with logic to equate the such a revival does not take place, and I shall explain lengthening of Parliaments with the shortening of why. “Expiry”, certainly; however, as I was very sensibly Parliaments. By its nature, that would lead to more advised, because of the scope of the Bill and its background, frequent elections—which would probably be a good rather than proposing what I would otherwise have put thing, as we saw today with the introduction of my hon. forward, namely a sunset clause—or, as I think it would Friend our new Member for Oldham East and Saddleworth be better described, a “cast into the darkness of hell” (Debbie Abrahams). When the people are given an clause—I have proposed that clause 2 be required to opportunity to speak, they tend to speak loud and clear. expire when the Parliament summoned to meet in May If the hon. Gentleman’s new clause were accepted by 2010, on that fixed and prescriptive date, dissolves. You those on the Treasury Bench, I fear that it would restrict might have an interest in this, Mr Speaker, because, if the democratic rights of the people to hold elections to anything were to happen, there might even be the need this place more often. For that reason, I fear that the for the re-election of a Speaker. In such rare circumstances, 715 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 716 you might take a particular interest in this provision. I left with a Fixed-term Parliaments Act that made no am suggesting that clause 2 should expire in those provision for an early general election? Is that what my circumstances. hon. Friend wants? It is important to bear in mind the provisions in clause 2. We have moved on from the Committee stage Mr Cash: I do not deny for a minute that that is one to Report, and I remind the House that I tabled of the consequences, but if we were to carry this new amendments to clause 2 in Committee because I took clause, it would effectively be the end of the Bill. As I the gravest exception to certain elements in it. I am look around the House and see the huge number of therefore anxious that it should expire, because I do not people attending this debate, I do not believe that there believe that it is a constitutionally satisfactory provision. is the slightest chance of my winning the Division— Clause 2(1) states: “An early parliamentary general election is to take place if the Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab): Yes, he might! Speaker of the House of Commons issues a certificate— (a) certifying that the House has passed a motion that there Mr Cash: Oh, I see. I am extremely grateful to hear should be an early parliamentary general election, what the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), (b) certifying whether or not the motion was passed on a that fierce defender of British liberty—when it suits division”— him—has to say. In the light of what my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) has I do not think that there would be much difficulty in said, it would not cause me any concern if my new demonstrating that. The clause continues: clause were passed simply because it would require a (c) if it is certified that the motion was passed on a division, rethink, when there would be a completely new situation. certifying that the number of members who voted in favour of the Does my hon. Friend want to intervene again on that? No. motion was a number equal to or greater than two thirds of the number of seats in the House (including vacant seats).” Austin Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman should not lack I have no intention of going back to the discussions that confidence about his ability to rally this House behind we had on the clause. I tabled amendments to it and an important measure. Let me ask, since no Parliament argued my case fairly, I thought, but the Whips got in can bind its successor, are not both the Bill and his new the way—I do not know the reason—and the result was clause otiose because a new Parliament will simply wipe that I lost my Division. If I may say so without presumption, the plate, and if it wants to dissolve early, it will do so? I do not believe that I lost the argument, but hon. Members on both sides of the House, particularly Back Mr Cash: That is a noble aspiration, but I am not at Benchers, are prone to believe our own arguments. all convinced that that is how it is intended to operate in practice, mainly because there are other people involved Thomas Docherty: On a point of clarification, I think who are called Whips. Unless provision has been made it is fair to say that Opposition Members do not believe for expiry, there will be a natural locomotion towards a that the Deputy Prime Minister has won a single argument future coalition, which I strongly resent, and towards in the House during our deliberations on the Bill. fixed-term Parliaments, in the plural, and we will be in “a new kind of politics”. I see in their places at least one Mr Cash: That does not surprise me very much. or two of my hon. Friends who, from what we read, One thing that I objected to in clause 2 was the would strongly advocate such a proposal. They have reference to “the number of seats”. We are elected as some constitutional ideas so perhaps they will elaborate Members of Parliament, and I am not sure that “seats” on them during the debate. I rather doubt it, but we are recognised in our constitutional arrangements. Seats shall see. do not speak, and vacant seats speak even less. I find the New clause 5 is designed so that section 2 of the whole proposal utterly incomprehensible. As we well eventual Act will expire. It also provides for the know, the present arrangement—not only in this legislature circumstances that might obtain in the first month after but in that of the United States and, I would say, all Parliament has returned after a general election, when it respectable legislatures—is that decisions are taken by a might have a totally different complexion and composition. majority of one. So what is this new-fangled idea about We have no idea who will be sitting on the Government a two-thirds majority? It is being introduced for one Benches at that time. In that first month with Members purpose only: to keep the provisions in the Bill going in reconvened for the first time—leaving aside the perpetuity. That is why I take such exception to the use constitutional doctrine about successive Parliaments— of the plural in the title “Fixed-term Parliaments Bill”. would it be right for those Members to be saddled with This provision also involves an invasion of the principle something with which they did not agree? It is a simple that one Parliament cannot bind its successor. That is as that. That provides another reason, quite apart from what I really object to, as that principle is central to our the constitutionality of the issue, for the new clause. democratic process. The people who come in to any given Parliament are not the same as the previous Jacob Rees-Mogg: Will my hon. Friend’s new clause people, and they are certainly not seats or vacant seats. ensure that after the next election, the Prime Minister, I hope that other Members will agree that this is a very instead of going through the fiction of having a vote of important constitutional question, on which I place a no confidence in himself, could simply ask for a Dissolution great deal of emphasis, in relation to the new clause that by a vote of the House? If the new clause were accepted, we are discussing. would it not provide a much more straightforward way of getting an early Dissolution? Mr Jenkin: I want to ask my hon. Friend a genuine question. Supposing there were a new Parliament and Mr Cash: That is a perceptive way of putting it; I section 2 of the Act were not renewed, would we not be congratulate my hon. Friend on his perspicacity. 717 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 718

[Mr Cash] of the hon. Member for Rhondda I feel a little more confident that the Opposition will support the new I have great reservations about our movement towards clause. I may discover in a moment whether that is the what is seen as a new kind of political understanding. case. I am glad to see the hon. Gentleman nodding: that One of the great objections relates to the ease with is a starter for one. which it is possible to break manifesto promises, enter The essence of the argument is that there is no into coalitions and then break them as well. Subsequently, rational basis on which the legislation should be regarded a Parliament might emerge that embodied all the thinking as relating to any future Parliament. We should make of those broken promises in the form of a new politics. our decision in our Parliament, along with decisions on That next Parliament is then intended to carry on as if a range of questions relating to the breaches of the nothing had happened. I think that that is a very coalition agreement, the broken manifesto promises, unsatisfactory way of governing, and a very undemocratic and whether we are satisfied with the progress being way of conducting our affairs. made over the next few years. There are certain things, although some people may 4.30 pm think not many, which I believe that the coalition has New clause 5 provides that delivered well. It is rather like the curate’s egg. That is “In the course of the first month of the day of first meeting of because, outweighing that, there are many other things any Parliament after the expiry” that I regard the coalition as having delivered less well. That is merely the opinion of one humble Back Bencher, of the provision that governs the issue of early but that fact does not prevent me from advancing my parliamentary elections, arguments as and when I feel it necessary to do so. “the Minister” Some will have noticed that I have not been slow in —who, for practical purposes, will be the Prime Minister— coming forward with my concerns when I think it is “may by order bring the section back into force for the remainder appropriate. of that Parliament.” The Bill will have to go to the House of Lords, and I I was advised that, within the scope of the Bill, it would was therefore extremely interested in a paper by the not be possible for me to provide for a sunset clause, House of Lords Constitution Committee, which was because the new clause would then be seen as a wrecking published on 16 December. It may or may not have been amendment and you, Mr. Speaker, would not select it. noticed by Members, but the majority of the Committee In fact it would have been a wrecking new clause, but, believed that the appropriate length of a fixed parliamentary although I have heard the expression “wrecking term should not be five years, but four years. That is amendment”, I have never heard of a wrecking new very interesting, because given the shenanigans that we clause. Let us not worry about that, however. have been witnessing in the other House, which seem We now come to the mechanics of the way in which to me— my new clause would operate. Were such an order made, it would have to be made by statutory instrument, Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab): It is and there would be a requirement, or obligation, in law. called proper scrutiny. The order “shall not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid Mr Cash: The hon. Gentleman corrects me by saying before and approved by a resolution of the House”. that it is proper scrutiny. That is the key issue. The House of Commons, as The Committee stated: reconvened after the expiry of that Parliament and the “Whilst acknowledging the case made by the Deputy Prime election of a new one, would have to approve the revival Minister for a five year term”— of section 2, which would at least give Members an it is so nice when the authors of such reports use opportunity to debate the procedure and decide whether expressions like “whilst acknowledging the case” and that was the way they wished to proceed. If no order “with respect to”—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the was made, an early parliamentary election could take Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) knows place only if the House had passed a motion allowing what is in my mind. The Committee continued: such an election, which puts the shoe on the other foot. “nonetheless the majority of the Committee consider that a four The reconvened House of Commons would almost year term should be adopted for any fixed-term Parliamentary certainly be of a completely different composition, and, arrangement at Westminster. In the view of the majority, the shift indeed, may have been elected on the basis of completely from a five year maximum to a five year norm would be inconsistent different principles, especially if the horrendous alternative with the Government’s stated aim of making the legislature more vote provisions ever come into force. accountable, inconsistent with existing constitutional practice and inconsistent with the practice of the devolved institutions This, and indeed all that we discuss in relation to the and the clear majority of international legislatures.” current spate of constitutional measures, represents a silent constitutional revolution. The Minister may well That is quite a condemnation. say, “You describe it as a silent revolution, but you talk about the issue a good deal, and so do many of your Mr MacNeil: Just for clarification, is the hon. Gentleman colleagues.” Given that the best way to keep a secret is referring to the recommended length of a parliamentary to make a speech in the House of Commons, I can be term as proposed by an upper Chamber where the reasonably confident that no one will have heard the length of a parliamentary term is life? arguments. However, I think it important to put on record, with no diffidence whatsoever because I am a Mr Cash: I can only repeat what that Committee has realist when it comes to these matters, that, whether or said: it states that the appropriate length of a fixed not we happen to win the vote, following the comments parliamentary term should be no more than four years. 719 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 720

The position is, therefore, that that powerful Committee will have to be written down in statute. Otherwise, either has given that advice to the House of Lords, which has there will be permanent gridlock or, even more dangerously, yet to be given the opportunity to vote on these proposals. we will face the problem of the Government having I think we are moving into territory where there will be absolutely no check on them because they will enjoy a proper scrutiny, as it has been described—although the majority in this House and down the other end of the word “filibuster” nearly slipped out—as has proved to building. I can think of no other system in the world be the case in respect of provisions in the alternative containing no such check. I say to the hon. Member for vote Bill currently before the House of Lords. There North East Somerset that although one praises the may yet be the possibility of similar activity with regard House of Lords, where Labour and Cross-Bench peers to how long the fixed parliamentary term should be. are doing a good job of scrutiny, some dangers are For all those reasons, I believe that the provisions I coming down the road. have felt concerned to raise through tabling new clause 5 The hon. Member for North East Somerset also are merited. They are consistent with proper constitutional relied on the Salisbury convention, whereby the Lords practice and good sense. The attempt to, let us say, fix would not stand in the way of something adumbrated the next fixed-term Parliament ought to be prevented at in a general election manifesto on which a Government all costs. were elected. In the previous Parliament the Liberal Democrats said that they believed that the Salisbury Chris Bryant: I warmly congratulate the hon. Member convention no longer held. I suspect that a convention for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) on his written in a gentlemen’s club and redrafted several times amendment and the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) during the 20th century probably will not stand the test on his amendment, which I shall address in a few of time and we will need something rather more secure moments. I should, of course, have called them “new for our constitutional settlement. clauses”; Mr Speaker corrected the hon. Member for As the hon. Gentleman pointed out, the Bill extends Stone on that earlier. However, I think that the hon. Parliament’s life beyond the five-year period that, thus Member for North East Somerset rather misled the far, has been allowed; clause 1 allows the Prime Minister House. He did not do so in any dishonourable way, but to extend or shorten the five-year fixed term by two he suggested that he was not here in 1911. I do not months, although that is reliant on motions in this believe that any Member of this House believes that he House and in the second Chamber. That is one of the was not here then or, for that matter, in 1832 and 1641. many reasons we have argued that the Bill will lead to If it was not exactly him, on each of those occasions it fewer general elections. That is so particularly because was certainly his predecessor who made almost identical the Bill provides for a five-year term, rather than a speeches. So I congratulate him on his consistency, four-year term, as the hon. Member for Stone said, but which has lasted not only for the length of a Lib Dem also because of the special provision allowing for the manifesto, but through the centuries, and I am sure he extra extension of two months. We believe that that is a will be here for many generations to come. problem and that the voters of this country probably want us not to have the longest fixed-term Parliaments Mr Jenkin: The hon. Gentleman rightly points out in the world. If we are to have fixed-term Parliaments, that someone just like my hon. Friend the Member for voters would probably prefer us to adopt the policy of North East Somerset was doubtless here in 1911, just as the Liberal Democrats before the general election and there was probably someone just like the hon. Gentleman the policy that Labour has pursued ever since the Plant and someone just like me. This House represents a commission, when we were mired deep in opposition continuity in this great kingdom of ours. He adverts to many years ago, which is for four-year fixed-term it with regard to only one Member, but it applies to all Parliaments. Unfortunately, that is not available to us in of us. the Bill.

Chris Bryant: I am not sure that that is right because, 4.45 pm for example, there were no women in this House or in I am afraid that I disagree with the means used by the the other House for many centuries. So changes have hon. Member for North East Somerset to answer the taken place, and change is just as important as continuity— problem. Section 2(1) of the Parliament Act 1911 states: that was going to be my argument. “If any Public Bill (other than a Money Bill or a Bill containing The hon. Member for North East Somerset praised any provision to extend the maximum duration of Parliament the House of Lords and the job of work it is doing at beyond five years) is passed by the House of Commons” the moment down the other end of the building, where I and it goes on to delineate the provisions, as amended hope his father will be stoutly defending not the by the later Parliament Act, that allow the Speaker to Government but the cause of freedom and democracy—I move straight to , often at Prorogation—we am sure he will be. I wish to sound a slight note of will come on to Prorogation later—without having to caution to the hon. Gentleman. I have long supported pass through the House of Lords, if the House of Lords an elected second Chamber, but over the past few years has refused to co-operate. There is therefore already the Second Chamber has become far more partisan, sufficient power to ensure that Parliament cannot be because a higher proportion of its Members now take a extended, which is the key point. One thing that successive party Whip. That applies in all parts of that House. generations have tried to reinforce is the need for frequent [Interruption.] The Minister says from a sedentary elections. The Triennial Acts and the various different position that Labour Members do, but what I said is versions that that legislation has gone through, from true of all political parties in the House of Lords. three years to seven years, the campaigns by the Chartists I hope that there will be an elected second Chamber, for annual elections and the return to a proposal for five and if there is the relationship between the Chambers years have all been centred on the belief that there 721 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 722 should be sufficient and regular elections for the Thomas Docherty: Does my hon. Friend agree with Government to enjoy a mandate and for the people to my assessment of the Parliament Act that the purpose have their voice. of stipulating that parliamentary terms cannot be I can see that the hon. Member for Stone is itching to lengthened was to ensure a democratic check against intervene, so I shall let him do so. the powers of the Prime Minister? Would not the hon. Member for North East Somerset’s new clause, regrettably, act as a check against democracy by stopping the right Mr Cash: I have been increasingly impressed over the of the democratic House to shorten the length of a months by the manner in which the hon. Gentleman term? That is not the spirit in which the Parliament Act has tackled these constitutional questions. He is putting was intended. the House in a far better position by the manner in which he explains many of his points. Having got over Chris Bryant: Yes, although as the hon. Member for that bit of flattery, I point out that it might have been a North East Somerset said at the very beginning of his good idea if, at this point in his speech—perhaps he is speech, all this will become rather unnecessary once we coming on to it—he had referred to the comments of have legislated for an elected, whether fully or substantially, the Clerk of the Parliaments. The Bill will go to the second Chamber. At that point, elements of the Parliament House of Lords, as I have pointed out, and we do not Act, or even the whole Act, will almost certainly have to quite know what their lordships will make of it. Not be reshaped. only did the Constitution Committee come to a certain conclusion on the issue that my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) has raised, Jacob Rees-Mogg: I absolutely understand the hon. but so did the Clerk of the Parliaments. He said: Gentleman’s point that a Government elected on a manifesto for four years would not want to be obstructed “It is...clear that the [Fixed-term Parliaments] Bill does contain by the House of Lords, and I doubt whether the Lords provision to extend the maximum duration of a Parliament would obstruct them in those circumstances. Does he beyond five years, and that it cannot, therefore, be passed under the Parliament Acts procedure unless, before it leaves the Commons, have any sympathy with the view that constitutional the [relevant] provisions...are amended.” issues ought to have greater protection than ordinary Bills, particularly as judges have decided that there is a Professors Bradley and Oliver agreed. That is an important category of constitutional Acts? Should we decide that point. Forgive me, Mr Deputy Speaker, for making rather than the judiciary? rather a long intervention, but I wanted to get it on the record that this is not just a minor matter but something on which the House of Lords appears largely to have Chris Bryant: My general approach is that we should made up its mind. always seek to take decisions ourselves, rather than leave them to judges to take for us, because we are elected. However, the history of English common law Chris Bryant: I am always a bit reluctant to presume and the way in which it has developed is such that what the House of Lords’ final view might be, not least judges have, by the precedents they have set, elaborated because three new Members of the House of Lords are on that law. We have sometimes then decided to incorporate being introduced every day at the moment—it is something those interpretations into statute law, so there has been of a moving feast down the far end of the corridor. The a constant relationship between the two. [Interruption.] hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the Clerk of My hon. Friend the Member for Dunfermline and West the Parliaments, and incidentally I want to pass on Fife (Thomas Docherty) is muttering about Scottish congratulations to Mr Beamish, who has just been law, but I am being very careful because I know much appointed the new Clerk of the Parliaments. It is also less about Scottish law than I do about English law, true that the Clerk of this House has made it clear that which also applies in Wales, so I am going to the edge of there are significant concerns about clause 2, which I my knowledge and not a step further. shall come on to when I discuss the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Stone. I am also always very The hon. Member for North East Somerset is right grateful for any oleaginous support I can get. that we will need, at some point, to put into statute law the relationship between this Chamber and an elected The point I hope to make about new clause 3, tabled second Chamber, as we will want to establish that more by the hon. Member for North East Somerset, is that I firmly.Perhaps, as has happened in every other constitution think that there is already adequate provision in the that has been written in the world, special provision will Parliament Act to ensure that Parliament cannot be be made for changing the constitution itself. In Germany, extended. His new clause would apply to the whole of there has to be a vote of a certain majority in both clause 1, so we would not be able to amend any of the Houses both before and after a general election. That elements of it, even if they had been adumbrated in a was enforced by us in the writing of the German manifesto commitment and a single party won the next constitution after the second world war. In Spain, changes general election with a majority and legislated in that have been made to the constitution since the death of way. We would not be able to use the Parliament Act Franco, but the Spanish, too, can proceed only if there even to shorten the length of a Parliament. is a significant majority within the Cortes and the If we win the next general election, I hope we will— Senate. In short, my answer to the hon. Gentleman notwithstanding the fact that we will have won, in a is yes. sense, the right for a five-year fixed-term Parliament—want In essence, my argument regarding new clause 3 is to reduce the number of years from five years to four. that it is not necessary and that it could be problematic As the hon. Member for North East Somerset has for a new Government, because they might not be able shown, historical consistency across the years is a good to get their way even on a manifesto commitment that political attribute rather than a failing. had been clearly laid down. The real danger concerns 723 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 724 the extension of parliamentary terms—something that continue with the provisions or to let them lapse. If it has always worried people in relation to the freedoms were a Labour Government, I am pretty confident that and rights of the British people, or rather the people of we would want to ensure that the provisions lapsed. the United Kingdom. That is already protected in the However, what other parties may want to do is for Parliament Act, which will stand until we revise all others to determine. these measures. Parliament has been extended in the The key point is that we would not want to have to past. That happened during the second world war when introduce primary legislation to repeal this element of extensions were agreed on an annual basis. I am not the Bill. For those reasons I am keen to support the sure whether that was voted on every year, but the hon. hon. Member for Stone. I do not think his new clause Member for North East Somerset might know. quite throws the whole of the ship into the whirlpool, Let me move to the hon. Member for Stone’s new but I think that the throwing of a few sailors into the clause. I note that the hon. Member for North East mouths of the demon in North East Somerset would be Somerset said that we have a choice between Scylla and inappropriate, and consequently we shall support new Charybdis—he being Scylla and the hon. Member for clause 5 but not new clause 3 and I very much hope that Stone being Charybdis. My uncertain memory of Homer we shall be able to divide the House on this matter. is that Odysseus chose to surrender a few sailors to Scylla rather than a whole ship to the whirlpool that Mr Jenkin: As one of the few Members of the House was Charybdis, but I am in favour of Charybdis this that has actually sailed through the straits of Messina afternoon. in a sailing boat and witnessed the whirlpool, and the rock from which the many heads of Scylla seized the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. We are sailors— now going to the end of my knowledge, and I think it The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark would be very useful if we returned to new clause 5. Harper): And survived. Chris Bryant: Indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker, although I Mr Jenkin: I survived, but I have to say that it is a am not sure that we really have got to the edge of your very disappointing whirlpool, but that is no reflection knowledge; I think your knowledge is boundless, and on either my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) consequently I agree with you. [Interruption.] The or my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the (Jacob Rees-Mogg)—whichever was representing the House of Commons, is talking about the pillars of whirlpool or the many-headed monster. However, if Hercules, which is a rather fine pub I have sometimes this is an opportunity to put some instability under the frequented in—well, north London somewhere. Bill, I will certainly support new clause 5 tabled by my The new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Stone hon. Friend the Member for Stone. I have my name on seems quite sensible, because we believe that section 2 it in any case. has a series of elements that, as the Clerk of the House I would echo the sentiment that the hon. Member for has pointed out, are problematic. We think that because Rhondda (Chris Bryant) expressed in an interesting it has been put into statute rather than included in the speech in response to new clause 3. The question of Standing Orders of the House, there is a real danger constitutional Bills is an interesting innovation introduced that elements could be questioned in the courts, and by Lord Justice Laws, but I would tell my hon. Friend one would then have a dramatic constitutional crisis. the Member for North East Somerset that Lord Justice Consequently, we understand that, as the hon. Gentleman Laws was merely including in his judgments something said, those elements are there entirely to bind together that had been widely understood by constitutional theorists the coalition. We understand why the coalition would for some time, although it had never been legally expressed want to maintain that element, but we certainly do not in such terms. I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s believe that a future Government should be bound sentiment and, indeed, with that of the hon. Member by it. for Rhondda that Parliament should determine which The hon. Gentleman is right to say that no Parliament of these laws is constitutional and overrides subsequent is bound by its predecessor and no Parliament can bind Acts of Parliament. Clearly, the European Communities its successor. However, there is one sense in which it can Act 1972 was expressly intended to do that, as has been delay its successor, because it makes it have to re-legislate recognised by the courts, and the 1689 Bill of Rights if it wants to take away a part of statute law. It seems to does that, but Lord Phillips concluded in a recent case me that since it is clear that this piece of constitutional— that the doctrine of implied repeal applies to the 1689 Act. 5pm Mr Cash: Flummery. For that reason, as was said in Committee by the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), Chris Bryant: I was thinking of jiggery-pokery. Section 2 who has just left his place, this is an extremely important is being proceeded with not on the basis of consensus matter to which the House should return at a future across the House, but on the basis solely of an agreement date. I am not sure that I want the Bill to become one of between the two coalition partners, so it would seem to those constitutional Acts, although I fully accept that us to make sense to make an allowance in the Bill that the House of Lords has a role to play in preventing a the section would die at the next general election. I note tyranny of the majority—incidentally, a role that it that the hon. Gentleman has crafted his new clause cannot play if it becomes an elected House. carefully so that it does not say 2015; it simply says that section 2 expires when the Parliament that was elected Mr Cash: We are, in fact, moving into very difficult in 2010 comes to its end. At that point, whatever new and choppy waters. With respect to my hon. Friend the Government had been elected could choose whether to Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg), I 725 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 726

[Mr Cash] theoretical—but, constitutionally, the possibility exists. It is extraordinary that we are contemplating putting in do not believe in the so-called constitutional statutes at place arrangements that could bring about a change of all. They are an invention in the first instance by Lord Government, Prime Minister and Administration without Justice Laws. They have a certain spurious credibility, a general election, but that is what the Bill provides for. but it does not stack up. My concern is that we will need The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) seems to use a range of “notwithstanding” arrangements in to be looking at me quizzically. relation not only to the European Union but to the so-called constitutional enactments or Bills when we Chris Bryant: I am looking at the hon. Gentleman want to legislate in the House. We will also need to quizzically, because, under the existing arrangements, require the judiciary to give effect to the latest Westminster there have been many changes of Prime Minister and enactment in that field of endeavour and to state expressly Administration without a general election. Although I what is intended to bypass this attempt to establish a recognise that the hon. Gentleman stood at the general completely new regime of codified legislation. That will election on a manifesto that said that a change of Prime simply become very difficult. Minister should be followed by a general election within six months, I note that he has not tabled an amendment Mr Jenkin: That was the purpose of my referring to that would have that effect. Lord Phillips’s recent obiter dicta, in which he implied Mr Jenkin: Privately, I can confide to the House that that later Acts of Parliament can effectively repeal the I always thought that that proposition was a bit daft—it parts of the 1689 Act that protect Parliament’s privileges. seemed like ingratiation. Whenever the ruling party I do not think that that is satisfactory, and Parliament changes its leader, meaning that there is a change of needs to think clearly about how we remain in democratic Prime Minister, the Opposition always cough and splutter control of this country’s constitutional settlement. loudly, and express the view that, in all justice, there Using legislative techniques, such as those suggested should be a general election. The newspapers usually by my hon. Friend, is the direction in which we ought to join in the fun, because they like general elections, too, move. Some people will say that means moving towards but, in reality, we all know that there is absolutely no a written constitution, but that is to misunderstand our need for an election. There is usually a degree of continuity constitution. It is partly written and partly not written. when there is a change of party leader because the same The point is to determine who is in charge. Parliament party is in charge and it is unlikely that a lot of the should be in charge, with the necessary checks and predecessor’s policies would be overthrown. One or two balances between the two Houses. So I very much things usually change, but generally there is continuity. welcome the debate that my hon. Friend the Member We are considering, however, the possibility of a for North East Somerset has initiated on this topic. change of Administration involving a different party. This debate will run and run, even though we might not We know that the Labour party attempted to form be able to agree or divide on his new clause. some kind of rainbow coalition with the Liberal Democrats I put my name to new clause 5, tabled by my hon. after the last election—[Interruption.] That was what Friend the Member for Stone, partly because it provides we were told, anyway. Later in this Parliament—perhaps an opportunity to remind ourselves of how bad the Bill if the balance of power has shifted a bit towards the is. I am afraid that I am appalled that it was introduced Opposition following by-elections—the Liberal Democrats in this way.I cannot recall any Government ever introducing could abandon the Conservatives in a vote of no confidence. a Bill to manipulate the constitution for their own In such circumstances, the Conservatives might be clever purposes in such a nakedly self-interested way. Clause 2 enough to join in that vote of no confidence to ensure is simply a fig leaf to ameliorate the problems that arise that there would be a general election, but it would be from fixed-term Parliaments. far more likely that the vote would be followed by a Let us remind ourselves of the provisions of clause 2. reordering of the Executive, which might well involve The two-thirds provision is obviously open to the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats. manipulation—assuming that the mechanism does not Let us suppose that the maths in the House were drag us into disputes with the courts—because if the slightly different and the two main parties were more Government of the day tabled a motion of no confidence evenly balanced. The Liberal Democrats then could in themselves, it would hardly be likely that the Opposition genuinely choose which partner they wanted. Through would oppose it, so a general election would still be the Bill, we are creating constitutional circumstances available at the initiative of the Executive. In a coalition under which the third party could change the Government arrangement, the smaller partner might decide not to at will without a general election. take part in such a process, meaning that the motion Chris Bryant: I am slightly flummoxed by the hon. would be opposed and, by arrangement with the Gentleman’s charming naivety about what might have Opposition, perhaps passed by only a simple majority. happened after the general election. The Bill does many Under the Bill, we are therefore creating arrangements things that are inappropriate, but I do not think it does by which a junior coalition partner may switch horses that, and the truth of the matter is that there have been halfway through a Parliament. many changes of Administration over the centuries I believe that the Liberal Democrats wanted a fixed-term under the existing arrangements, not least in the first Parliament so that they could swap coalition partners and second world wars. Having a fixed-term Parliament halfway through the Parliament. Lo and behold, we does not in itself mean what the hon. Gentleman has now read in the papers that the Leader of the Opposition described will happen. It is perfectly possible that we and the Deputy Prime Minister seem to be striking up a will win a significant number of by-elections over the new friendship—perhaps that heralds the switch. Of coming years, or that some Liberal Democrats or others course, I am talking hypothetically—the subject is may change their party affiliation, and—[Interruption.] 727 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 728

It is possible; I said only that. The Minister should do consider at the earliest opportunity whether the Fixed-term the nice bit again. In such circumstances, the mathematics Parliaments Act should remain on the statute book—I would change. very much hope that it will not—or to put in place much better arrangements to provide for early general Mr Jenkin: Inevitably, these debates always depend elections under a fixed-term Parliament system. The on speculation about what might happen, which is the Bill as drafted is nonsense and a potential disaster. If we one rather unsatisfactory thing about debating the future do not fix it in this place, I hope that those in another of the constitution. I have always been regarded as a bit place will do so. of a pessimist about the European Union, but I did point out to a colleague that, so far, I have been proved 5.15 pm right, and if these arrangements remain the same indefinitely, sooner or later I will be proved right again. Mr Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con): I support the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the The point is that the Bill—except for this new measure Member for Stone (Mr Cash), but I shall talk about the in clause 2—is intended to remove the safety valve that new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for allows for an early general election. However, that clause North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg). The hon. is the worst part of the Bill. As we were told by the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) invoked Homer. Clerk of the House in his memorandum, before the Bill In the case of my hon. Friend’s new clause, I would was considered in Committee: invoke Cicero: “The Bill brings the internal proceedings of the House into the “Those who know nothing of the time before they were born ambit of the Courts, albeit indirectly by the route of Speaker’s shall forever remain children.” certificates.” That is what I feel is happening to this Chamber. We The procedures of the House, votes of confidence, forget our past, our history and the continuity of our Speaker’s certificates and two-thirds majorities all become constitution. There was an affirmation there that was potentially justiciable, notwithstanding the Bill of Rights. important and required addressing. For that reason, I fully support the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone. I understand the hon. Member for Rhondda being concerned about the increased politicisation of the House A vain attempt to remove the courts from considering of Lords, and the “gridlock”, or however he described those matters is made in clause 2(3), which states: it. I grew up in an age when the Standing Orders of the “A certificate under this section is conclusive for all purposes.” House of Lords—this was before my time in the House Unfortunately, clause 2(3) is itself justiciable by the of Commons—were not so dissimilar from the Standing courts, because we are putting this into statute. That Orders of the House of Commons. They dealt with, part of the Bill, which attempts to ameliorate the problems among other things, delay. Very important it is, too. If that arise from having fixed-term Parliaments, creates there is such a thing as gridlock, there comes a point, as the biggest constitutional headaches for Parliament itself we sometimes see in the United States, when the people by inviting the courts to intervene in those matters. whom we are elected to represent grow increasingly angered that the business of government comes to a Mr Cash: On that very question, does my hon. Friend halt because horns are locked. That becomes the grounds recall that the 1911 Act goes further? It does not end by for compromise and discussion as the route forward. saying that the certificate As I understand it, in the Lords a proposition has “shall be conclusive for all purposes”, been offered to the Government to separate the but adds Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill into two parts, with one part going forward. So there “and shall not be questioned in any court of law.” were grounds for compromise. At the moment that is I would simply add to that the word “whatsoever” not acceptable to the Government and there is therefore because of the very problem that he has mentioned. The gridlock, but there will come a time when that is Supreme Court, or indeed any other court, may seek to unacceptable to a wider public, who want Parliament take control over this. and the Government to move on.

Mr Jenkin: I put it to my hon. Friend that that Chris Bryant: I hoped that my words supported the wording in 1911 may well have been sufficient because it very argument that the hon. Gentleman is making. I would not have entered the heads of the judges in those would, in addition, invoke Cato the Younger, who by days to breach the Bill of Rights, but we know that speaking until dusk, made sure that Caesar did not members of the now Supreme Court—note the word always get his way. [Interruption.] The Deputy Leader “Supreme”—sincerely believe that Parliament is within of the House says that that was a filibuster. Cato was their purview. We have had the debate about whether right to use every tactic that he had, but the hon. the sovereignty of Parliament is a common-law principle— Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Mr Shepherd) is right, that is, part of judge-made law, rather than an historical too. The Standing Orders of the House of Lords were fact that exists in its own right as a result of the disputes the same as they were in this place. The fact that now between the Crown and Parliament in the 17th century. the Government always have precedence over the order and the timing of debates is one of the reasons why I believe that it would be helpful if I spoke briefly on there is no check on the Executive at all. this matter, and I take this opportunity to commend my hon. Friend on his new clause. Future Parliaments Mr Shepherd: I am always encouraged when a political should have the opportunity to throw out the proposals opponent, in the sense of someone from the other side in clause 2. That would not wreck the Bill, but it would of the House, adopts arguments that I advanced against invite questions about what it means and how practical him when he was sitting on the Front Bench on behalf it is. It would certainly impel a future Parliament to of the Labour party. It is true. Now we see the conversion 729 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 730

[Mr Shepherd] that I do not think that they should have reached forward with a Bill of this nature. If they want to work of the defeated. That is why we should always be in harness they will have the support of a great many mindful that our hold on government is a temporary Members of this House. We know that the nation is experience, and that one day we will be sitting on the confronted with an economic crisis and difficult decisions Benches on the other side of the Chamber and hoping have to be made. The people of this country are having to be able to make the reasoned arguments that can to make difficult decisions on how to restore economic convince a wider public out there. competence, balance budgets and all the rest of it. The sheer disengagement of some of our arguments We have spent a lot of time on the first matter, so I from those by whom we are elected, and from why we will now come to the real new clause, tabled by my hon. are elected, is to me the most worrying development of Friend the Member for Stone, which I will undoubtedly Parliament in recent years. We have scorned the historic vote for. His brevity today was extraordinary. [Laughter.] balance of where the people lie in this matter; that is I do not laugh at it, for I think that the expression of why I support both new clauses. I have asked the whole great ideas is all the more effective for being expressed way through our consideration of the Bill how it will in a concentrated and condensed way. I appreciate that strengthen the people’s hold over the House of Commons, there is a drinks party at Downing street for Members which is their representative instrument for ensuring from my party who want to attend, so I will bring my that public policy bears some relationship to the desires, remarks to a close, as the great business of the Government hopes and aspirations of our society. I commend my must not be delayed by the musings of the House of hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset for Commons on such matters as constitutional reform. the informed, reasoned and reasonable way in which he I am standing up to support the limitations that are presented his new clause. If it is put to a vote, I will vote being expressed and the hesitations about the nature of for it, because I would like to show that there is some the Bill. If there were one thing that I could argue for support in this House for the arguments it advances and effect, it would be that the Government themselves about temperance in respect of the House of Lords and realise that they have a job. We salute them for that, but, its doings. when they fiddle with the constitution in ways that suit I am a democrat and truly believe in the representation only their own purpose and stifle the natural functioning of the people in this House, which is what I want to see. flow of politics, we lose something, and we lose the However, the basis of the argument that I have made attention of our constituents. My argument is that we the whole way through proceedings on the Bill is that cannot march to a drumbeat like that. I am grateful to we know that it is about the entrenchment of a temporary my hon. Friend for giving us the opportunity at least to coalition, and we are trying to examine, and amend, the raise our caveats, and I am grateful to the Labour party aspiration that things can somehow be rejigged. We for indicating that it will support the new clause. It is have heard the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, important, and I commend it. my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean Mr Harper: I thank my hon. Friend the Member for (Mr Harper), who is sitting on the Front Bench, advance North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) for his generous the startling proposition that the Queen could dismiss a opening remarks and, as usual, largely excellent speech. Prime Minister for acting “improperly”. No constitutional I say “largely”, because I do not entirely agree with his documents in the past two centuries, and certainly not characterisation of the other place, given the behaviour since 1867, have stated that that was a practical reality. not, I hasten to add, of their lordships’ House, but of a Thomas Docherty: In that case, perhaps the hon. small number of former Labour MPs, who are filibustering Gentleman could explain why Her Majesty was able to and abusing every procedure of that House to try to dismiss the Government of Australia, which is part of frustrate the will of this elected House of Commons, the Commonwealth, by using the powers that she has. which passed the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill by a considerable majority. Apart Mr Shepherd: The constitutional arrangements of from that, I very much enjoyed my hon. Friend’s speech. Australia are a matter of written statute there, and I understand that the Governor-General exercised the Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): On a point prerogative power in the case to which the hon. Gentleman of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for the refers. However, that is not what I am concerned about; Deputy Prime Minister to have abused the Members of I am concerned about our own constitutional processes. the House of Lords in the form that he chose? I think that the statement by my hon. Friend the Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): That is most Parliamentary Secretary was misjudged, but he has certainly not a point of order for me. I am sure that never withdrawn it. He is a representative of the there are other ways in which the hon. Gentleman can Government, and of the Crown itself, but as a Member express his views, and I am sure that the Deputy Prime of Parliament he has never withdrawn that statement. Minister—like the Minister who is present—will be well My nervousness about the Bill is clear. I am nervous aware of what has just been said. Please, Mr Harper, about the idea that two parties can mandate that their continue. existence as a coalition should last for a term of five years. I have expressed that view before, and I think that Mr Harper: I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I it is shared by a number of Members. I have no doubt think that I drew a distinction between certain Members that the Lords will think that measure trivial in some of the other place and the other place in general, about ways, because it is a presumption; how can one mandate which I have no complaint. something that is formed by human beings with their My hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset own policies and parties? They can work together to a explained very clearly the effect of his new clause 3, and certain extent, but the coalition will last as long as the he was concerned about changes to clause 1 being made coalition lasts. I am not damning it; I am just saying using powers in the Parliament Act 1911. It is already 731 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 732 the case—this is a subject on which I agree with the Mr Jenkin: On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—that the Is it not the case that if there was an attempt to table a Parliament Act cannot be used to push through legislation wrecking amendment, the Clerks would rapidly describe that extends the life of Parliaments. One hon. Member—I it as out of order and it would not be selected for think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Stone debate? (Mr Cash)—pointed out that because of the Bill’s provisions allowing the Prime Minister to vary the date of an Mr Deputy Speaker: All I can say is that all the election by up to two months in an emergency, we amendments and new clauses have been chosen in the cannot use the Parliament Act to push this legislation right and proper way. through against the wishes of the upper House. However, the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset would, as the hon. Member Mr Harper: Exactly; it is a very cunning new clause. for Rhondda said, also prevent this House from reducing My hon. Friend the Member for Stone put his finger on the length of a Parliament without the agreement of the the point that an amendment simply to take away other place. It does not seem desirable to put that clause 2 would have been a wrecking amendment. The provision in place. power of revival is the cunning disguise in which the new clause is wrapped. Section 2 of the Parliament Act 1911, to which my hon. Friend’s new clause refers, sets out important rules My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North about the relationship between this House and the Essex (Mr Jenkin) described clause 2 as a fig leaf. I do other place. Those rules have been in place for some not agree with that characterisation, but even if the time, and the Government certainly do not intend to House agreed with it, I am not sure that hon. Members start changing that relationship. It is already the case would be as keen to remove the fig leaf as my hon. that we cannot lengthen a Parliament, and given what I Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex appeared have said, we do not want to start changing the Parliament to be. [Interruption.] No, that is what he said. He said Act as my hon. Friend’s new clause would. that it was a fig leaf and that he wanted to remove it. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone seemed to Chris Bryant: I presume that the Minister is therefore establish a new doctrine in his speech. He seemed to be confirming that the Bill does lengthen a Parliament. suggesting that all Acts of Parliament should lapse at Mr Harper: Yes. The Bill sets out a five-year term, the end of a Parliament, just in case the new Parliament and in an emergency it would be possible for the Prime is of a different complexion and its Members disagree. Minister to vary the length, so we cannot use the He said that the House should not bind its successors. It Parliament Act to enact it. That is a perfectly is perfectly true that the House cannot bind its successors, straightforward point. It is in the Bill; it is no great because each successive Parliament can repeal Acts; secret at all. that is the normal way. However, it is not the normal procedure for all Acts to lapse at the end of a Parliament, Chris Bryant: You denied it in Committee. just in case the new Parliament disagrees with them. Mr Harper: No. It is very clear in the Bill. I do not The Government hope, although they cannot bind think that the issue arose in Committee. their successors, that the public and future Parliaments will find the arrangements in the Bill acceptable and The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife will keep them in place. Future Parliaments are, of (Thomas Docherty) also put his finger on this issue course, at liberty to change them. However, we do not when he correctly drew attention to it in an intervention think that there should be what my hon. Friend the on my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset. Member for Stone described as a sunset clause to If my hon. Friend presses the new clause to a vote I remove the powers. If clause 2 were removed as he shall ask hon. Members to oppose it. suggested, it would effectively give back the power to My hon. Friend the Member for Stone, in speaking the Prime Minister to dissolve Parliament at will. We to new clause 5, said that the Fixed-term Parliaments have argued throughout the passage of the Bill that that Bill was about perpetual coalition arrangements. It is would be undesirable. not about fixed-term Governments, but about the length of Parliaments. All it does is take away the Prime Minister’s power to dissolve a Parliament and bring it Chris Bryant: Many of us believe that the Prime to an end. It replaces that right with two provisions that Minister has that power even under the Bill, because all establish no confidence procedures, which we have already, he has to do is table a motion of no confidence in his and give Parliament the opportunity to vote for an early own Government, to which the Opposition would almost Dissolution. always agree, and there would be a general election. Be that as it may, I am sure that the Minister argued and 5.30 pm voted for sunset clauses in relation to control orders, which, I understand, will expire next Monday. Is the My hon. Friend confirmed, in effect, that new clause 5 same provision not necessary in this Bill? was a wrecking amendment. He said that he could not table the proposal exactly as he had wanted, because it would have been ruled out of order. I suppose that it is a Mr Harper: No; the Government’s intention is to wrecking amendment in a cunning disguise. change the system so that there are fixed-term Parliaments, apart from in the two possible cases set out in the Bill. Mr Cash: I strongly resent the idea that new clause 5 We think that that is a desirable change. If the public is a wrecking amendment; it stands on its own merits, and future politicians agree that it is desirable, it will and I repudiate this Baldrick attempt to turn it into a stand the test of time. That is what we hope for and cunning plot. what we have argued for. 733 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 734

[Mr Harper] Amendment 14, page 2, line 5, clause 2, at end insert— My hon. Friends the Members for Stone and for ‘(aa) certifying whether or not the motion specified a Harwich and North Essex raised concerns about the polling day for such an election, and if so, the day two procedures in clause 2—motions of no confidence specified in that motion,’. and motions on early elections—that allow for early Amendment 15, page 2, line 24, after ‘be’, insert— elections. However, the House of Lords Constitution ‘(a) the day specified in a motion as certified under subsection Committee was fairly supportive of those measures. (1)(aa) above, or, if no date is specified, (b)’. The Committee said that it was Amendment 8, page 2, line 29, clause 3, leave out “sensible for the Bill to contain some form of safety valve which ‘17th’ and insert ‘25th’. would allow for an early election in circumstances such as the Amendment 9, page 2, line 39, at end insert government losing the confidence of the Commons or where a political or economic crisis has affected the country”, ‘within 15 working days of the polling day’. and concluded that the safety valves that we had included Amendment 2, page 4, line 4, schedule, leave out ‘“or were appropriate. The Committee also looked at the dissolve”’ and insert risk of the courts intervening, which my hon. Friend the ‘“prorogue or dissolve Parliaments nor”’. Member for Harwich and North Essex mentioned, and Amendment 3, page 4, line 6, at end insert— concluded: ‘Meeting of Parliament Act 1797 (c. 127) “The risk that the courts may intervene in any early dissolution of Parliament by questioning the Speaker’s certificate is very 2A The Meeting of Parliament Act 1797 is repealed.’. small,” Amendment 4, page 4, line 8, leave out Adding: ‘“or dissolved” where it occurs second’ “we do not consider the risk to be sufficient to warrant a rejection and insert of clause 2 of the Bill.” ‘“unless it should be sooner prorogued or dissolved by the Based on what the House of Lords Constitution Crown, anything in the Succession to the Crown Act 1707 in any Committee has said, I, unlike my hon. Friend the Member way notwithstanding”.’. for Stone, am confident that when this House approves the Bill, as I hope it will, and it is debated in their Chris Bryant: I wish to speak to new clause 4 and lordships’ House, they will give it proper scrutiny, but in some of the other amendments in the group, which the end give it a fair wind and pass it. However, if my stand in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, the hon. Friend presses his new clause 5 to a vote, I will urge shadow and myself. all hon. Members to reject it and to keep clause 2 as it stands. One of the arguments that the Deputy Prime Minister, the Prime Minister, the Minister and the Deputy Leader Jacob Rees-Mogg: I beg to ask leave to withdraw the of the House have advanced in favour of the Bill is that clause. it surrenders a hefty part of the royal prerogative that Clause, by leave, withdrawn. has been enjoyed by the Prime Minister, in that the Prime Minister will no longer be able to cut and run. Mr Cash rose— That is, the Prime Minister will no longer be able to determine the date of the general election or be free to Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order. If you run the constitution—and, in particular, the electoral wish to press your new clause, Mr Cash, you will have timetable—according to party political advantage. an opportunity to do so later, after we debate the next Those of us who have supported fixed-term Parliaments group, which starts with new clause 4. for some time, and who made many speeches about them before the last general election, agree that that is New Clause 4 an important step to take. We support the idea of fixed-term Parliaments. We note that there have been PROROGATION OF PARLIAMENT several occasions in the past when Prime Ministers have ‘(1) Parliament can only be prorogued in accordance with this been tempted to call general elections because they have section. had poll leads, and when they have cut and run. There (2) If the House of Commons resolves that Parliament should have been other occasions when Prime Ministers have be prorogued, Parliament shall be prorogued at that time, or by decided not to do so, because they were fearful of the declaration of the Speaker. electorate. We believe that it makes far more sense for (3) The Speaker of the House of Commons shall not make local authorities, which have to administer elections, such a declaration unless the House of Commons has passed a and for the Boundary Commission and the whole resolution directing him to do so on or before a specified date and time. paraphernalia of electoral law to have the clarity that comes from knowing, in general, except for extraordinary (4) Where Parliament is prorogued under subsection (2) above, circumstances, when the next general election will be. the Speaker may by declaration prorogue it to an earlier or later day. However, one element of prerogative power that the (5) The Prorogation Act 1867 is repealed.’.—(Chris Bryant.) Government are not surrendering is the prerogative Brought up, and read the First time. power of Prorogation—I shall have to be careful with my syllables in the next section of my speech. As I am Chris Bryant: I beg to move, That the clause be read a sure all hon. Members know, Prorogation is a rather Second time. abstruse element of the way in which we do our business. It is an irony that it is still true that Parliament can Mr Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient to neither sit nor choose not to sit without the say-so of discuss the following: the Crown. I use the term “the Crown” because in 735 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 736 theory it is the monarch who decides, but in practice it is relates to impeachment proceedings, which are able to the monarch in consultation with the Privy Council, continue from one Session to the next. which means, to all intents and purposes, the Government The power to prorogue is therefore a substantial one of the day, and therefore the Prime Minister. That is that the Government retain. I would argue that this is laid down in a series of different elements of our particularly important in relation to this Bill because constitutional settlement, but in particular, in the power the Government could use the power inappropriately, if of Prorogation, which lies, fairly and squarely, solely it were to remain solely in their hands, if there had been with the Crown and the Prime Minister. a vote of no confidence in them. Let us say that the It is still true that there is no requirement that a Government had opposed the vote of no confidence Parliament sit—except, one could argue, in so far as the but lost it. There is a provision in the Bill that, in the provisions in the Bill of Rights determine that no following fortnight, a new Government would have to money can be granted to the Crown unless it is expressly pass a motion of confidence. However, a motion of granted by Parliament, and that Parliament therefore confidence can be agreed in the House only if Parliament has to meet at least once a year to agree the estimates. is sitting. If the Government had decided to prorogue Similarly, one could argue that the provisions relating to Parliament, there would be no opportunity for a new not being able to have a standing army mean that one to be formed. I can perfectly easily see a set of Parliament has to meet every five years. A provision circumstances in which a Government, having lost a also exists stating that we cannot be without a Parliament vote of confidence, want to make sure that no other for more than three years. However, I would argue—as Government can be formed and therefore prorogue the Social Democratic party-Liberal alliance used to Parliament expressly to prevent an alternative Government, argue very forcefully—that Parliament should have a thereby triggering a general election. permanent existence, except during those brief moments when it is dissolved. 5.45 pm Of course we still support the idea of having annual The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office who is Sessions of Parliament, and there needs to be a means no longer in his place, was told off earlier by one of his of ending each parliamentary Session. We also need a parliamentary colleagues for advancing the argument in means of dissolving Parliament before a general election. a previous debate that if the Prime Minister were to act However, the amendments that we have tabled today unconstitutionally, the monarch would sack that Prime would mean that the power to decide to sit and not to Minister. I have talked this over with quite a few sit would lie solely in the hands of this House and not in constitutional experts, every single one of whom said the hands of the Government. Under the current provision, that that is complete and utter nonsense—including Dissolution is effected by royal proclamation under Vernon Bogdanor who told me that he was particularly the Great Seal, and the proclamation of Dissolution depressed by the way in which the Minister had advanced sometimes follows Prorogation and sometimes follows that argument because he was one of his own students an Adjournment. Our proposal is that that proclamation who had previously seemed to be quite intelligent, but and the date on which Parliament would next sit following seemed to have abandoned his sense on this point. a general election should not be decided solely by the Prime Minister, and that they should be fixed in statute, Thomas Docherty: My hon. Friend is articulating a as they are in nearly every other constitution in the coherent case. Does he agree that if we have a new world. electoral system, the odds of having a This is especially true if we are moving towards what will increase greatly and that if this Parliament did not are being called fixed-term Parliaments but are actually have an opportunity to re-form a Government, that fixed general election dates. It is important that the would be expressly against the wishes of the people, House should always know when it is next going to sit who had clearly voted for a hung Parliament? following a general election. That is why we have tabled amendment 9, which proposes that Parliament should sit Chris Bryant: I detect a bit of a difference of view between my hon. Friend and myself here. I hate to say “within 15 working days of the polling day”. this, but I am rather more with the Deputy Leader of That would apply whether it is an early general election the House on this issue. My hon. Friend is right in or one that takes place on a fixed date, such as May 2015— saying that if a proportional system were introduced, a or, as we would argue, May 2014. We have used the term succession of hung Parliaments would be more likely. “working days”because that term has been used throughout Consensus would rule the day and coalition Governments the Bill. There is one tiny element in the Bill in which would be formed on a fairly regular basis. That is not the Government refer simply to “days” rather than absolutely certain, as it has not happened in some “working days”, but they refused to accept our argument countries that have proportional representation. However, on that, and our amendment to change the wording was the alternative vote, which I shall be voting for— defeated. None the less, I think that it is better to be [Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for consistent throughout the Bill in relation to the terms Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) shouts that are used. out, “Shame”, but it expressly points out in “Erskine The power of Prorogation is important not only at May” that shouting “Shame” is unparliamentary. I would the end of a Parliament when there is a Dissolution and not want to excoriate him on that basis. I am not quite a general election; it is important also at the end of a sure on which page it says that, but I am sure he will Session, in that every element of parliamentary business find it, if he looks for it. [Interruption.] is suspended. There are no further sittings, and all Bills that have been commenced fall, except those that have Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans): Order.Itismy expressly been permitted to be carried over to the next job to cite that authority, not the job of the hon. Session. As I understand it, the only other exception Member. 737 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 738

Chris Bryant: I am just trying to help you out, Mr Deputy Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman has predicted Speaker. You did say earlier that you were at the edge of almost exactly what I was about to say. The 40th Canadian your knowledge and this might not be a page you have Parliament, which was elected on 14 October 2008 and reached in your reading of “Erskine May”. opened on 18 November, was prorogued by the Governor- My point was that the alternative vote system does General almost immediately, on 4 December, at the not necessarily lead to more hung Parliaments. It depends specific request of the then Prime Minister, Stephen entirely on the political climate of the day. The fact that Harper. I do not think that there is a deliberate coincidence first past the post has on this occasion delivered us a between his surname and that of the Parliamentary hung Parliament and that we have had coalition Secretary, Cabinet Office. Governments many times over the last 140 years provides Mr Harper expected a motion of no confidence in his evidence that it is not first past the post that delivers a Government, and a coalition agreement was established particular version of government, but how people vote between the various parties with the support of the in the particular circumstances. Bloc Québécois. As the hon. Gentleman says, that Prorogation was quite substantial, and a second Prorogation Chris Bryant: I was referring to the use of Prorogation at the end of 2009 lasted for more than two months. at the end of a parliamentary Session. I believe that that Many complained that it too had been arranged expressly should be in the hands of this House, not in the hands to avoid a political inconvenience. At the time, a big row of the Government. Sorry, in fact I was referring to the was taking place about the detention of Afghans by case where a Government might choose to use Prorogation Canadian forces. expressly to prevent an alternative Government from being formed. The Deputy Leader of the House might As the hon. Gentleman suggests, there is a real danger reassert what the Parliamentary Secretary said earlier—that that Prorogation could be used in a rather more assertive the monarch would simply sack the Prime Minister in and political fashion. Governments in this country have such circumstances—but I do not believe that the monarch tended not to use it in such a way, partly because it has such a power. In fact, since statute law would have means losing the business on which they have embarked expressly stated that that power was still there, I cannot and having to start it all over again. That will probably see how that could possibly happen. Alternatively, the continue, but given that Select Committee reports— Deputy Leader of the House might say that the monarch including reports from the Standards and Privileges would refuse to grant Prorogation. That would set the Committee—also fall in such circumstances, I can easily monarch directly against the Prime Minister, and in imagine that a Government might choose to prorogue a such a contest there would be a real constitutional month earlier than usual, perhaps very early in a Parliament, crisis, which some would want to take to the courts in order to avoid a political necessity. Interestingly, the because the provisions would by then have been placed ostensible reason given by the Canadians was the prospect in statute law. of the winter Olympics in Canada. They said it was imperative that the Canadian Government should be The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of able to get on with its business, and that Parliament the House of Commons (Mr David Heath): The hon. should not be able to meet during the Olympics. Gentleman is exploring an interesting argument, but I think it is right for the power to cease to be wholly there is currently nothing to prevent a Prime Minister in the hands of the Crown, and to be in the hands of the from requesting Prorogation to avoid a vote of no House. I also think that we should start to clarify the confidence if he believes that the monarch will accede knitting pattern, as it were, of this part of the constitution to his request. Given that that has never happened, why as it currently exists. The laws governing Prorogation does the hon. Gentleman think that such a constitutional hang on a series of Acts of Parliament: the Prorogation anomaly is more likely to arise following the passage of Act 1867, the Meeting of Parliament Acts 1694, 1797, the Bill than under the present arrangements? 1799 and 1870, and the Parliament (Elections and Meeting) Act 1943. The thrust of all those Acts is that the Chris Bryant: The Deputy Leader of the House has monarch is entirely able to prorogue Parliament, to made a fair point. However, because we are now putting decide when it will next meet, and to continue to prorogue in statute significant elements of the way in which the with only the safeguards of the measures that I mentioned British constitution might work in the future, rather earlier in the context of the Bill of Rights. than, of necessity, what exists at present, we are creating a labyrinth which Prime Ministers may well wish to There is a considerable lack of clarity in regard to the navigate. I shall say more about that shortly, once I have process in the run-up to a general election. We know given way to the hon. Member for Rochester and Strood when the next general election will be, at least according (Mark Reckless), who is talking to a Whip at the to the Bill, although we still hope that their Lordships moment. may enforce their will and ensure that it takes place in 2014 rather than 2015. Indeed, I hope that a significant Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood) (Con) rose— number of Conservatives will support the 2014 date, if only to shrug off the embrace of the Liberal Democrats. Chris Bryant: I give way to the hon. Gentleman. However, given that we know when the next general election is expected to be, it surely makes sense for us to Mark Reckless: That is very kind. rationalise the process of Prorogation. I believe that there is a recent precedent in Canada, Up to 1974, there were only two 20th-century general whose Parliament—if I understand the position correctly— elections in which a Dissolution was not preceded by a was prorogued for two or three months by a minority Prorogation: the elections of 22 August 1922 and 31 July Government, against the wishes of many parliamentary 1964. As I am sure Members have already spotted, both parties. those elections took place in the summer months, during 739 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 740 long recesses when the House stood adjourned. three reasons: first so as not to have the temptation of Adjournment, of course, follows a decision by the House, being able to use Prorogation to prevent business that not the Government. There followed a period during they do not want to happen; secondly because we are which the Government decided to abandon Prorogation. putting into statute measures in respect of what happens There were adjournments in the summer of 1974, in in the case of a motion of no confidence which make 1979, in 1983 and in 1987, with no Prorogation. express provision for there being a strict period of time By 1987, the assumption seemed to have become that during which a motion of confidence has to be passed the House would do without Prorogation at the end of and which could only be passed if the House were a Parliament and before Dissolution, partly because the sitting, and therefore not prorogued; and thirdly because Royal Assent Act 1967 had allowed Royal Assent to be we need to tidy up the processes we go through at the granted by notification rather than necessarily by end of a Parliament—not the end of a parliamentary Prorogation. There was, and still is, no specific need at Session—both by determining that we should have a Prorogation for Royal Assent to Acts that had not yet Prorogation but that the decision on the date should be been referred to. In fact, in 1987 there was something of left to this House and not to the Government, and by a row in the House. Mr Speaker Weatherill said that he ensuring that, as in amendment 9, there is a clear date thought it inappropriate for us to abandon Prorogation. for when the new Parliament will be sitting. It may be apposite to discuss that occasion this evening, New clause 4 therefore puts Prorogation directly in given that so many Members have left the Chamber to the hands of the Commons and repeals several of the go to a drinks party in Downing street. Incidentally, is historical provisions in statute. It would clarify all these the sun already past the yardarm? It is not yet 6 pm, and issues. It allows for the House to decide either immediately Conservatives are already drinking in Downing street. to prorogue, or to allow the Speaker to prorogue at a Tradition has gone by the board. later time that is, however, fixed. It would also repeal the Prorogation Act 1867 and tidy up a variety of Thomas Docherty: I am sure that the fact that the measures. Conservatives have had to resort to drink has nothing Amendment 2 amends the Crown Act 1707—that is to do with last Thursday’s result in the Oldham by-election. important—and amendment 3 repeals the Meeting of Parliament Act 1797. Amendment 4 amends section 51 Chris Bryant: I do not think they are very happy. I of the Representation of the People Act 1867 so that also think that the Prime Minister may have needed to any reference to Dissolution or Prorogation is entirely gather his troops as a result of last week’s result. omitted. Amendment 9 would require Parliament to On that occasion in 1987, the Speaker and several meet “within 15 working days” after a general election. Members, including Mr Faulds, expressed the view that In the vast majority of cases in the last 61 years since one of the traditions that had developed over the years the second world war, that would meet the needs of was that once a Parliament had been prorogued, Members every new Parliament. These measures would bring the had an opportunity to make final speeches, and the sitting, holding and closing of Parliament into Parliament’s Speaker had an opportunity to bid farewell to those hands. who would not be standing in the subsequent election. I We have further amendments in this group, to which I believe that 86 were not standing again in 1987. Mr Speaker also wish to refer briefly. As all Members know, the Weatherill said that he thought it was wrong for there to length of time that is allowed for a general election has be no Prorogation before Dissolution, and several Members historically been 17 days. That is referred to in the agreed. My hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover Representation of the People Act 1983, as amended, (Mr Skinner) was the only one who believed that it which makes provision for the would be good to get rid of Prorogations, because the “Last day for delivery of nomination papers/withdrawals of whole business of Lords Commissioners doffing their candidature/appointment of election agents” caps in the House of Lords struck him as a ludicrous ceremony that should be abolished. A fair number of to be on the sixth day after Dissolution, with polling Members probably think that the quaintness of that day 11 days after that. That has made perfect sense over moment should not simply be chucked away for the the years, when we have been completely uncertain as to sake of it. My point is, however, that the decision on the likely date of the general election—it could be in whether Prorogation should take place ought to lie in January, March, April or any time of the year. However, the hands of the House rather than in those of Government. under the Bill we are now moving over to a situation in I also think it is important for it to be known at that which general elections will nearly always be in May, point exactly when the first sitting of the new Parliament and on the same day as local elections, Assembly elections will be. in Wales and , and elections for the . For each of those elections the Because, I suspect, of Mr Speaker Weatherill’s views, timetable is a 25-day period, not a 17-day period. I think Dissolution was again preceded by Prorogation in 1992, it makes sense to have the same length of time for all 1997, 2005 and 2010. However, in 2001 Parliament was sets of elections that are being held on the same day. dissolved without being prorogued, and was simply adjourned on 11 May 2001. Adjournment was, of course, Various considerations apply to this issue of course, a decision of the House, not the Government. including national expenditure on election campaigns, local expenditure, the amount an individual candidate can spend on promoting their own candidature, and a 6pm whole series of different measures in relation to electoral In summary, it is important that, just as the Government law. They all come into play the moment that short are surrendering the prerogative power in relation to campaign period has started. It therefore makes sense Dissolution, they should also surrender the prerogative for the period to be the same for all the different power in relation to Prorogation. They should do so for candidates who are standing for election at the same 741 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 742 time. I have spoken to the Electoral Commission, which Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. We are straying from the has been campaigning for equalisation in this regard for subject of new clause 4. The price of drinks in Downing some time. It is interesting that while the Representation street has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. of the People Act 1983 set a timetable of 17 days for a general election, every time a new body has been set up Nick Boles: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I was in subsequently, the decision has been made to set the danger of being wholly distracted from my point, which period at 25 days rather than 17 days. is that my love for the British constitution, such as it is, Several years ago, the second speech I ever made in is greater even than my love for a glass of reasonably this House was on the Ofcom paving Bill, which was priced white wine served at No. 10 Downing street, and introducing Ofcom and getting rid of the various different there is no part of the British constitution for which I bodies that then regulated broadcasting and telecoms. have a greater passion than that nebulous concept of I said it would be great to get rid of lots of bodies and Prorogation. It is the subject of the stories that my just have one because it would be coherent, more consistent parents read to me by my bedside when I was a child. and, to use a “Valleys’” word—as in the south Wales I agree that it sounds like a sad childhood, but such Valleys—it would be tidy.Unfortunately however, Hansard it was. rendered that as to use a “valet’s” word. We do not have The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) made many valets in the Valleys, but I would still assert—I an ingenious argument about the dangers of this power hope that the Hansard reporters are noting this—that remaining with the sovereign. He suggested that a Prime the proposal I have just mentioned would be more Minister presiding without a secure majority and having coherent, more consistent, and that, to use a Valleys lost a vote of no confidence in this House might advise word, it would be tidy. [Interruption.] I see that I have the sovereign to prorogue Parliament to avoid the possibility support for this amendment from one of the Conservative of Parliament passing a vote of confidence in an alternative Whips; I hope I will see him in the Division Lobby later. Government and thereby bringing about an election, I very much hope that the Government will feel able rather than the installation of a new Government. I am to support these amendments. I understand that there second to none in my passion for the nebulous concept may be some uncertainty in relation to the period of the of Prorogation, but I am no lawyer, unlike the hon. general election campaign, but I hope that what will Gentleman. triumph in Ministers’ minds is a desire to see greater Chris Bryant: Iamnotalawyer. clarity and tidiness in our electoral arrangements as we move towards a fixed-term Parliament. Nick Boles: I withdraw that comment, Mr Deputy Speaker, which was almost certainly unparliamentary Nick Boles (Grantham and Stamford) (Con): Anybody and banned by “Erskine May”. The hon. Gentleman who knows me knows that my appreciation of a glass of said he felt he had a certain expertise in English law but reasonably priced white wine is second to no one’s in not in Scottish law. I point out that my expertise in any this House, and my appreciation of a glass of reasonably law is equivalent to his expertise in Scottish law, so I am priced white wine served by the Prime Minister in No. skating across boggy ground, if such a thing is possible. 10 Downing street is extreme, but my love for the British The hon. Gentleman tried to argue that the power to constitution is greater than that. prorogue should transfer to Parliament so that a Prime Minister who has lost his majority and lost the confidence Chris Bryant: Is he charging? of this House cannot use the power and the persuadability of the sovereign to remain in office and require an Nick Boles: The shadow Minister asks whether my election to be called. He has an excessively colourful right hon. Friend the Prime Minister is charging for the imagination. I understand that where no party has a drinks he is serving in No. 10 Downing street. In response, clear majority in this House the role of the sovereign is I would merely point out something that seems to have to see whether a stable Government can be formed. escaped the attention of Opposition Members. We saw a very good example of that after the last general election, when there was no clear result and no Thomas Docherty: On a point of order, Mr Deputy party had a clear majority in this House. The sovereign Speaker. The hon. Gentleman seems to be claiming that behaved impeccably in allowing and encouraging the the Prime Minister is using Downing street for commercial parties, both the Labour party in government and the purposes. Is it appropriate for the hon. Gentleman to Opposition parties, to explore which arrangement was make such a serious allegation against his own Prime the most stable and to form the Government who had Minister? the most chance of lasting. Surely where a party in government has lost a vote of confidence in this House Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr ): I think we and no longer commands a stable majority here it all know that that is not a point of order. would be an absolutely integral part of the sovereign’s constitutional role to invite the other party leaders to Nick Boles: I do not want to stray from the subject of explore whether they could form a stable majority. the new clauses and the amendments, but I should point [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Dunfermline and out something that seems permanently to escape Opposition West Fife (Thomas Docherty) frowns. I would be happy Members, which is that we live in a time of austerity, to take an intervention from him, but may I finish and our Prime Minister is doing everything he can to explaining my logic? He can then explain to me why, as maximise revenue to the Exchequer and minimise expense, so often, it is flawed. hence the reasonably priced wine being served and the— The sovereign would invite other party leaders to see whether they could secure a stable majority and they Thomas Docherty: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? would have those conversations even if Parliament had 743 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 744 been prorogued. If a group of parties not then in the win a vote of confidence. That is why the fear of the Government told Her Majesty—or His Majesty, on hon. Member for Rhondda is not justified. In fact, a some future date—that they could form a stable reverse fear is involved. Government and provided good evidence of that fact, and if the Cabinet Secretary were to advise that they Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con): Is not the were a stable Government, there is no reason why Her very purpose behind the Bill and the cooling-off period Majesty should not invite the leader of the parties after a vote of no confidence precisely to allow that to putting together that constellation to form a Government. happen? The expectation would not be that Her Majesty At that point, that leader would be the Prime Minister or His Majesty would interfere in the political process. and could kiss hands—all of that can happen without Under the Bill, such a situation would throw the game Parliament being involved. That leader would then be open to see whether a Government who can command the Prime Minister and would be able to “rerogue” or the confidence of this House can be formed. People “unrogue”—I do not know what the correct term is—and elect MPs and then, to a certain extent, they expect us recall Parliament, thus cancelling Prorogation, and put to get on and govern; they do not expect us to squabble, their Government to a vote of confidence. If they were throw our toys out of the pram and have another successful, that would obviate the need for a further election because it suits us. election. So I do not think that the logic of the argument made by the hon. Member for Rhondda holds. Nick Boles: My hon. Friend puts it far more succinctly and better than I could. The key point is that there is nothing to stop that process happening just because 6.15 pm Parliament is prorogued. We do not stop existing or Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab): I apologise for being able to have conversations with each other, with not being here earlier in the debate, but I am seriously Her Majesty’s advisers or with senior members of the concerned about what the hon. Gentleman is suggesting, civil service because Parliament is prorogued. We would which is a degree of politicisation of the monarch, as still exist, we would still be MPs and we would still be Head of State, from which I would draw back. If a able to go through that process. degree of automaticity were involved and any Prime Minister of the day who could not form a Government Thomas Docherty: “Erskine May” is quite clear about automatically, as a convention, asked the leader of the the fact that if Parliament is prorogued, all the Bills next major party to form one, that would be one thing. before the House fall. So it is not entirely accurate to say If the monarch is making political judgments about that there is no effect to proroguing Parliament. who he or she should choose, that is a very different matter. When George V involved himself in helping to Nick Boles: Of course I accept that, but it is not really form the national Government in 1931 that was pushing what we are referring to. We are referring to non-legislative the monarch too far into politics. Heads of State should activity associated with forming a Government. not have that role. Jacob Rees-Mogg: Would that not be crucial? A new Nick Boles: The hon. Gentleman also makes a strong Prime Minister from another party would want all the argument and has much greater historical knowledge Bills of the old party’s Prime Minister to fall. Prorogation than I do. I would say only that if the Bill becomes law, would be beneficial. it will become a clear part of our constitutional Nick Boles: Exactly. arrangements that the expectation, the desire and the will of the people is that we have fixed-term Parliaments Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is completely lasting five years. Therefore, should there be an interruption wrong, I am afraid, much as I like him— that led to a vote of no confidence in a Government and the Prime Minister came to the sovereign asking for her Nick Boles: Him or me? to prorogue Parliament, it would be clear to the sovereign, who would also receive advice from her advisers, that Chris Bryant: Both of you. I am quite happy to like there was a danger of frustrating the constitution and anybody. frustrating the will of the people for us to have elections The hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob every five years. Rees-Mogg) is completely wrong. A person from the Given that the Prime Minister would have lost a vote same political party might want to take over. The of confidence in this House—in the old days that would no-confidence vote might apply to the Prime Minister normally have automatically led to their no longer as an individual rather than to the whole Government. having a right to govern—I do not think it would be I would agree with the hon. Member for Grantham and classified as the sovereign “meddling” in politics were Stamford (Nick Boles) were it not for the way in which she then to say that she would invite alternatives if the the Bill is worded, because it refers to the period of Prime Minister could not tell her that he or she could 14 days—not 14 sitting days. The House could be form a stable Government without going to the people adjourned or prorogued during that period, or it could in an election. If the Prime Minister could not give her already be prorogued. There are many different situations that reassurance, it would be entirely proper for the in which we need to seize this power back into the hands sovereign—her advisers would tell her this—to see whether of the House rather than the Government. the Parliament that had not run its full course did not contain an alternative stable Government who could be Nick Boles: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who has formed and for her to invite the relevant leader of any thought about this for longer, more deeply and in a such Government to kiss hands, become Prime Minister more researched way than I have, as I was invited to and resummon Parliament to see whether they could make this speech only a relatively short time ago. 745 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 746

Dan Byles: It is a slightly odd idea that we could have and close Parliament by proclamation but having to a vote of no confidence and that somebody from the come to the House to make a speech to argue for it. governing party might take up the reins. Any party that That is the big difference. had a vote of no confidence rather than a leadership challenge to change their leader would be highly Nick Boles: Although I defer hugely to the hon. irresponsible. Gentleman’s greater understanding, he betrays a lack of a feel for how this constitution of ours works. The same Nick Boles: My hon. Friend is right. There were criticism could be applied to some of his other amendments. moments in the previous Parliament when we all might The whole point of our constitution is that it is organic have wished that the party in government had taken and flexible, and that it develops over time. Everything that route rather than imposing on us the rather long, we do, every decision we make and every Bill we pass drawn-out demise that we all witnessed. slightly shifts and changes the constitution. It is a not a rules-based constitution but a practice-based constitution. Chris Bryant: Much as I like the other hon. Gentleman, Of course, there are rules—the Parliament Acts, the whose name I do not know—[Laughter.] No,Ido,but Salisbury convention and so on—but they develop and he was completely wrong. He would be right if the Bill metamorphose as we use them. determined what counted as a motion of no confidence, but it does not. A motion of no confidence could be a Chris Bryant rose— motion of censure of an individual person. It might be tabled by the Opposition, and, if they won, they would end up unseating somebody as a party leader without Nick Boles: If I may, I would like to at least develop unseating the Government. the argument enough for the hon. Gentleman to be able to fire it down good and proper. Nick Boles: I have a sense that we will probably not Once we have passed this Bill and created five-year persuade the hon. Gentleman here and now, although I Parliaments and the expectation that they are the norm have eternal optimism that we will persuade him of for this country, the constitution will have changed. The everything in due course. way in which the sovereign uses her powers to invite Let me move on to the solution proposed by the hon. people to form Governments, to see whether they can Member for Rhondda, which, to my mind, is as flawed— win the confidence of this House, to prorogue and to though also as ingenious—as his analysis of what he accept advice from a Prime Minister will change. We sees as the problems with the Bill. His solution is that will all make the argument that it would be profoundly this House, and exclusively this House, would have the unconstitutional for a Prime Minister who had just lost power to prorogue. I believe that the House would a vote of no confidence to abuse his power as the adopt a resolution and the Speaker would then prorogue monarch’s sole adviser to advise her to prorogue a Parliament. The problem is another circumstance that Parliament. It would be absolutely within the monarch’s the Opposition parties have talked about. When a Prime rights to say, “I am defending the constitution. I am Minister with a rather small majority in this House defending this new expectation that we should have feels, in the middle of a five-year term, that everything five-year Parliaments by trying to see whether there is is going frightfully well, they might cynically decide to somebody other than this loser, who has just lost the engineer a vote of no confidence that they would then confidence of the House, who can command a majority. instruct their Members to vote for in order to bring the That does not interfere with Parliament or government—I House down, to prorogue and, more importantly, to am in fact interpreting properly the will of the people, have a further election. I have heard in earlier discussions which is that we should have five-year terms.” I believe that that vexes and worries Opposition Members and that the hon. Member for Rhondda thinks that these the hon. Member for Rhondda. Surely, his solution rules are unchanging and unbending and that they will would fall prey to that ruse far more than happens not shift and metamorphose in response to the Bill. under the current circumstances, when only the monarch can prorogue Parliament. Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman has referred If a Prime Minister who felt that everything was repeatedly to the will of the people, but at no point did going frightfully well and that if he had a quick election his party leader or the Deputy Prime Minister promise he could get a better majority could engineer a vote of a five-year term. However, his party leader did say that no confidence by getting his troops to support it, surely if there was a change of Prime Minister, there would be he could engineer a resolution of the House to prorogue a general election within six months. Why has that not just as cynically, wilfully and arbitrarily. Does not the been considered as part of the Government’s Bill? hon. Gentleman’s proposal move the power of prorogation, which currently sits in that special, rather hallowed Nick Boles: The hon. Gentleman is cunning, as ever. constitutional place of being one of the few things that Unfortunately, in almost all his interventions in this the sovereign does, on to the Floor of this House where debate—and in any other—he tends to argue that this it will become subject to all the machinations and swirls House represents the sovereign will of the people, so it of this place and of ambitious Prime Ministers trying to is a bit rich for him to shift ground and suddenly say secure a better majority? that if something was not discussed in an election campaign, it did not receive the endorsement of the Chris Bryant: Prime Ministers are by definition ambitious, people. We are sufficient and entire unto ourselves, I think—that was otiose. No. The Prime Minister, to all capable of representing the will of the people. If we intents and purposes, is the Crown and the Crown, to decide, as I believe and hope we will, that we want to all intents and purposes, is the Prime Minister in the adopt this Bill, and if the gentlemen and ladies in the exercise of prerogative powers. Secondly, there is a other place decide that they would prefer to have slightly significant advantage in not just being able to prorogue more sleep and approve the Bill, we will have decided—we 747 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 748 are the will of the people—that this is how we want our Parliament a Bill that will establish fixed-term elections constitution to operate in future. I do not accept the and remove the Prime Minister’s right to choose a date hon. Gentleman’s ingenious objection. that is to his or her advantage.

Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): Will my Kelvin Hopkins: I am listening with interest to the hon. Friend briefly explain why he feels that the change hon. Gentleman, but I would be more convinced by his of a Prime Minister should trigger a general election argument if the Bill were to apply after the next election, within six months? but this looks like a Government trying to perpetuate Nick Boles: The question that has been asked does their term in office to five years. not relate to the clause or the amendments and I defer always to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, as to whether my Nick Boles: I detect from the hon. Gentleman’s expression comments would be relevant, although of course I want and demeanour that he is worried, but he should not be to be courteous to my hon. Friend. because we genuinely want the changes to become permanent—as much as the constitution of our country Mr Deputy Speaker: I think we will stick with new can allow that. We genuinely want there to be, at least clause 4. for as long as any of us can see, a habit, norm and expectation deep in our society that there will be elections 6.30 pm in May every five years. I hope that is how the situation Nick Boles: Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, from will be perceived in this country after the Bill is passed— the bottom of my heart. without my hon. Friends’ amendments. As I hear in the distance the light pop of the second bottle being opened in No. 10 Downing street, I shall Dr McCrea: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman move on to other amendments in the group. The hon. should not be afraid to mention God. A moment ago, Member for Rhondda has talked about tidying up. he was going to say, “Thank God,” but instead said “Tidy” is a great word, particularly when spoken in the “Thank the stars.” inimitable accent not of the valets, but of the valleys. I rather share his love of the word, but not the concept. It Nick Boles: I am very grateful to my hon. Friend—may is an entirely classic Labour reaction to try to make I call him that? I feel as though we are friends even everything neat and tidy. His further amendments would though we sit on opposite sides. I am always nervous tidy up and specify when Parliament would return after about the customs of this place: I wanted to say thank a general election, but he has not told us why or when God; I meant thank God; and frankly the stars have this has been a problem in the past. He never said, absolutely nothing to do with it. I am happy to be “There was that famous time when something happened corrected. in the country and we were not able to discuss it because we had not returned,” or, “There was that famous time Returning to the tidiness of the amendment of the when the Prime Minister did not want to do PMQs and hon. Member for Rhondda, he has not demonstrated, avoided them because she or he was so terrified.” He or even provided a shred of evidence to explain why the has not given any reasons to explain why things are not current point at which Parliament is recalled after an working at the moment, so this is one of the rare election is a problem or causes any difficulties. We occasions on which I shall associate myself with the should reject his amendment. deep instinct of my hon. Friend the Member for North The hon. Gentleman has tabled another amendment East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) that we should not to regulate the timetable for elections and he has again change things unless they are demonstrably broken. made a superficially appealing argument about lining up the different election timetables for different tiers of Mr Charles Walker: Is not my hon. Friend making a government, but it will not have escaped the attention good argument for retaining the current system and of Government Members that he has, as ever, lined up doing away with the Bill altogether? with the longer figure. That betrays the deep belief of Nick Boles: That is an even more ingenious attempt, the Labour party, of which the hon. Gentleman provides Mr Deputy Speaker, because it is harder for me to a good example, that what the country needs are more appeal to you for succour on this point, but I reject my politics, longer election campaigns, more leaflets going hon. Friend’s point because I believe that the Bill is one through doors and more people knocking on one’s door of principle. I believe that the idea of Prime Ministers just when EastEnders is on or when a good game has picking the dates of elections is wholly outrageous in a started. modern democracy and that we must have fixed-term Parliaments. I happen to know that this argument has Dan Byles: The House has faced a big problem with been raging inside the Conservative, Liberal Democrat fundraising and the increasing cost of democracy. Would and Labour parties for years, so it is a cause of high not longer election campaigns lead to more expense and principle. a greater requirement for parties to raise funds? We all The history of the British constitution is that changes know that parties get into trouble however they try to of high principle happen only when the parties in power raise funds, so is this not the wrong direction to go in? see political advantage in such change; that is how democracy works. Britain has been reformed when the Nick Boles: I agree entirely. great causes have been aligned with low party interest and I thank—I am not sure if I am allowed to say what Chris Bryant: Well, the hon. Gentleman should not, I was going to say—the stars that in this Parliament at because if we extended the 17 days to 25, there would be this time that alliance of high principle and low politics less need to raise money because the amount that can be has come together and that we are putting through spent in a short election campaign is much more 749 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 750

[Chris Bryant] case for 12 days, and if someone wants to enter into a bit of a Dutch auction and say eight days, I would be circumscribed than the amount that could be spent happy with that too. across the whole of the previous year. With a fixed-term Parliament, it should be possible to restrict the amount Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is wrong, because of money much more readily, so that is a further reason—I one major reason why we might want a slightly longer am glad he has added another—for him to support my period is to allow people who register for a postal vote amendment. to get their vote in on time. The hon. Gentleman’s Nick Boles: I am not sure I understood that point, so, Government will be legislating for prisoners to have the in a traditional Tory way, I am going to reject it because vote; they will vote by post, as I understand it. In the hon. Gentleman said it. addition, as I heard him say earlier, people who live abroad—especially those in the armed forces—who vote The issue is whether the timetables should conform by post would find it impossible to do so within a to the lower figure of 17 days or the higher figure of period of eight or 12 days. They already find it very 25 days. My instinct, and probably that of most difficult to do so within 17 days but they do manage to Government Members, is that any conformity should do so within the 25-day period for local elections. be to a shorter election campaign and a quicker decision. However, we must then address the issue of whether it is appropriate to determine that figure in this Bill. I believe Nick Boles: The hon. Gentleman is being a trifle that the Bill makes a fundamental constitutional change—to unkind because he knew I was being a little light-hearted that extent I agree with those of my hon. Friends who and frivolous; indeed he indulges himself in such behaviour. are uncomfortable with parts of it—but that is why I Whereas we allow him to get away with it, he has taken support it. I want that fundamental constitutional change my light-hearted conjectures as a serious suggestion. and I want it to remain for ever. I want it to be What he has done, however, is to demonstrate the force something that people will describe in 25 or 30 years’ of my argument, which is that we should have a proper time as one of the big constitutional shifts in the life of discussion, separate from the Bill, about the question, modern Britain. Because the Bill will make such a “What is the right time period?” fundamental constitutional change, I do not want to There are many good counter-arguments; the hon. hang about with all sorts of little, pernickety tidying-up Gentleman has enumerated some of them. My sympathies exercises. I do not want to lumber the Bill with measures for those prisoners denied their right to vote are more that might seem irrelevant in future, thereby opening limited than my sympathies for the other categories of the door to further amendment. I want the Bill to have potential postal voter that he mentioned, but I am sure as few clauses as possible—clear clauses that are based that those prisoners too will have their defenders. Should on the principled position that the timing of an election we not have a separate debate on a separate piece of should not be up to the Prime Minister but should be a legislation on this question—if legislation is required? matter of rhythm and pattern defined by our constitution. Maybe it is required, but I do not think that we should be making this amendment to a Bill that needs to stand Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP): Is it not in the test of time. It needs to rest as a keystone in our the nature of these issues that parliamentarians will constitution that lasts through the ages and is not take the opportunity, when a relevant Bill comes before eroded by time. I hope, therefore, that everyone in the the House, to deal with matters for which such an House will choose to reject the new clauses and the opportunity might not come again for a long time? amendments proposed by the hon. Gentleman. What is the hon. Gentleman’s position on the amendment? Does he agree that the election period should be the same for local, parliamentary and Assembly elections, Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP): My childhood, unlike but not that it should be extended? Clearly, there are that of the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford advantages to having the same period for all elections, (Nick Boles), was not peppered with bedtime stories of not least in terms of calculating election expenditure for prorogations and other interesting matters. returns. Before I speak to the two amendments in my name, I Nick Boles: I thank the right hon. Gentleman and I want to discuss new clause 4 and some of the other agree with him. If we are to have, as I hope we will, amendments on Prorogation. I accept the point made elections falling in a regular pattern, coinciding with by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) that other elections to other important democratic bodies, it anomalies left in legislation can lead to all sorts of seems obvious that there should be a consistent series. continuing questions, and to absurdities and abuses. In Otherwise, people would find it very confusing if local so far as we are trying to create fixed-term Parliaments election campaigns had started while the parliamentary and trying to set out in clear and reliable terms the election campaign they all knew was coming had not. circumstances in which an election can be brought In such a situation, if parties put out leaflets with about early, we should as far as possible have those councillors on one side and a parliamentary candidate arrangements as tidy—to use the hon. Gentleman’s on the other, they might get into trouble for jumping the valley word—as possible. gun. The point he makes is absolutely right, but we However, I accept the point that the hon. Member for should not necessarily decide here and now, in this Bill, Grantham and Stamford made: that the amendments between the proposals for 17 or 25 days, or even that the of themselves would not sort out all the questions. If length should be 17 or 25 days. If we want to make this our real fear is that a future Francis Urquhart Prime change, should we not think a bit harder about what the Minister will exploit these anomalies and devices to period should be? I have only thought of it on the spur create all sorts of problems, the amendments themselves of the moment, but I think I could make a very strong would not fully prevent that, because a Machiavellian 751 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 752

Prime Minister who was able to marshal and control that they want to move it—or similarly for the Olympics votes in the House would be able to do exactly the same or another event. Or—people seem to be very taken with Prorogation. To a degree we are in the realm of, with royal weddings at the minute—perhaps some such “There’s a hole in the bucket, dear Liza”. event could be taking place in close proximity to the due Each time we try to solve the problem, we come back to date for an election, in which case Parliament might the basic issue of trust and control—the control that a very sensibly agree to move the date forward. As the Bill Prime Minister and Whips could have in the House, stands, Parliament cannot do that. where things rest on a vote determined by the Prime Minister. Mr Charles Walker: If we support the notion of a I believe, however, that important amendments tabled fixed-term Parliament, which I do not, surely we have to by Members on the Opposition Front Bench would at accept that risk. If we support the idea of having a fixed least ensure that there are not open and blatant date in the calendar, it is just tough if there happens to inconsistencies between election spending windows for be a royal wedding at the same time. We cannot have it different elections that could be taking place fairly both ways. coterminously. Simply as a matter of good legislative practice, we should as far as possible try to resolve those Mark Durkan: That sums up my view on royal weddings, problems and keep things squared now. but that is my own prejudice. Also in response to what the hon. Member for Grantham Another argument that has been made is that the Bill and Stamford said, if we are serious about the Bill being is about removing a prerogative from a Prime Minister a fixed-term Parliament Bill, and if its purpose is to and giving powers to the House. If that is what we are prevent people from being surprised into an election or saying—not just that the Prime Minister is giving up an election from being called at a stroke, it could help if some powers, but that the House is getting some—my we had clear fixed time limits for Prorogation, such as amendment would ensure that the House gets more those that are being suggested. I am somewhat like the powers. The House should be equipped, not just to pass hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner) in that I come a motion calling for an early general election, but to from a political tradition that does not particularly like specify the date—instead of leaving it to the Prime caps being doffed in the House of Lords or anywhere Minister to recommend to the monarch when that date else, so I would prefer to avoid the constitutional eccentricity should be—and there should be provision for Parliament of Prorogation, but if that is part of the chosen furniture to do so sensibly in advance. The amendments that we and architecture of this place, at least let us ensure that all debated in Committee all presumed that it would be we do not trip over it in a dangerous way. in a matter of weeks, similar to the debate that we have just had about 17 days and 25 days’ Prorogation—in 6.45 pm other words, in fairly close calendar quarters. I believe that we should make provision in clause 2(1) to allow Amendments 14 and 15, which are in my name, the House to set a date, which is what amendment 14 would amend clause 2. As with some of the comments would do. It would provide a fourth point that could be that the hon. Member for Rhondda made in proposing covered by a Speaker’s certificate: whether or not a date new clause 4, my amendments 14 and 15 are intended to was specified and what the date was. Amendment 15 question the Government’s argument that the Bill is would amend clause 2(6), so that the date could be about removing prerogative powers from the Prime specified. Minister to call elections. It was said in earlier debates on the Bill that the significant move is that the current Prime Minister will be the first to give up that power. If Mr Dodds: I am following the hon. Gentleman’s that is the case, why, when an election is called early argument. I am a supporter of the Bill in principle, but under clause 2(1) or the confidence measure in clause having established the fixed-term principle in legislation, 2(2), is it left to the Prime Minister to recommend the is not the danger of his amendments that, by resolution election date? Clause 2(1) relates to when a vote takes of the Commons proposed by the Prime Minister who place in the House of Commons for an early election rallies his troops, the principle would be effectively date and that vote is certified by the Speaker. I believe undermined by setting another date? So what would be that in such circumstances it should be entirely possible the point of legislating in the first place? for the House, in such a Division, to specify the date rather than leaving it up to the Prime Minister. Mark Durkan: I take the right hon. Gentleman’s This matter arose in debates at earlier stages. Some point, but let us remember that the Speaker can issue amendments had come from the Political and Constitutional two types of certificate—under clause 2(2), which relates Reform Committee, and some of its amendments brought to confidence motions, and under clause 2(1), in respect us into the situation where everyone in the Chamber at of a resolution passed by two thirds of Members—and Committee stage was talking about the provisions of my amendments deal only with those circumstances. If clause 2(1) and (2). They talked about the vote taking we legislate for a resolution to be passed by two thirds place in close calendar quarters to the calling of the of Members and for the Speaker to certify certain election, whereas I believe that we should make clear things about that, it would be a gross oversight not to provision relating to clause 2(1) to allow Parliament to provide for hon. Members, in so voting in such a vote maybe a year, maybe even two years ahead of the Division, to specify a date if they wished to do so, due date of an election, to say, “No, for good stated rather than to leave that up to the Prime Minister. reasons we are going early.” It might be that England I do not wish to go into the constitutional twilight has finally won a bid for the World cup and that zone that the hon. Member for Rhondda took us into tournament will coincide with the due date for an about some of the wily vagaries of prorogation powers, election, and people might well sensibly say in advance but if we simply leave it to a Minister, even the Prime 753 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 754

[Mark Durkan] to suggest that the only truly democratic system is the one that has evolved in this country—the one that we Minister, to set a date and make no provision for the currently use. Such reasoning suggests that it is not House to specify a date, we leave ourselves open to possible to amend our system without somehow making possible uncertainties and, indeed, abuses. I remind the it less democratic, even though it concentrates power in right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) that the Prime Minister’s hands. The Bill will devolve the we have served in an Assembly where a Secretary of power to call a general election to the House, which is State had certain powers and obligations for setting surely where it belongs. election dates. There have been court cases about whether If one were to follow that line of reasoning to its or not the Secretary of State had duly exercised those absurd conclusion, it would suggest that other western powers and whether he had chosen not to see things and nations are somehow less democratic than ours, simply then said that he had exercised the power to set a date because they have democratic systems different from by simply setting the same date that had been suggested. the one that we enjoy. In the United States Congressmen People have used the different devices that the law and women serve a two-year fixed term. The President allowed. serves a four-year fixed term. Senators serve six-year I am simply saying that if we charge the House with fixed terms. Clearly, that does not make the United the possibility of setting a different election date for its States less democratic than we are simply because its own good reasons—I assume that they would need to system is different from ours. In France Members of the be good reasons if the motion was supported by two National Assembly are elected for five-year terms—the thirds of Members—we should at least allow the House period that the Bill recommends. The President is also to specify the date as well if we are to hold to the spirit elected for a five-year term. The Senate is selected for a of the Prime Minister giving up powers. six-year term. Like other hon. Members, I have serious reservations about Speaker’s certificates. My amendments would not Chris Bryant: I am sorry, but Members of the Assemblée suspend any of the qualifications that I and many other Nationale are elected for terms of up to five years, not hon. Members have on that subject—the worries about fixed terms. the implications in terms of courts and so on—but the more that we charge the House with powers and controls Dan Byles: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for in relation to the issue, the more content I would be correcting me. That was not my understanding, but I with the Bill. will bow to his superior knowledge. The French model has an interesting lesson to teach us about leaving the Dan Byles: I am grateful for the opportunity to power to dissolve Parliament with the Executive, as contribute to this important discussion. The entire issue opposed to the system that we are now considering. The of fixed-term Parliaments, sadly, is in danger of becoming President of France has the power to force dissolution yet another political football to be kicked around the early, but that is not supposed to be the norm; it is House, as Members seek to manufacture objections to supposed to be used only in an emergency. It has been reform, and to posture and grandstand. I fear that the used only twice in an emergency, in 1962 and 1968, but new clause and amendments for the most part would it has been used three times for political advantage—in not add to the Bill in any meaningful way. The issue is 1981, 1988 and 1997—thus clearly demonstrating that really very simple. I believe that the Bill will strengthen if we leave such a power in the hands of the Executive, it the power of the House over a key constitutional issue will inevitably be used for party political advantage. and diminish the Prime Minister’s power. Jacob Rees-Mogg: The Bill still seems to allow the Before coming to the detail of the new clause and Executive to do that, because they can force a vote of amendments, let us remember exactly what this historic no confidence in themselves. Therefore, what we are Bill is about. Previously, the Prime Minister had the achieving is simply changing the rules by which an early power to ask for an early Dissolution of Parliament at election can be called, not making any fundamental any time. Historically, that extraordinary degree of power change to the constitution. has been used solely to the political advantage of the party in power. Dan Byles: I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s typically pithy and interesting contribution. The point has been Mr Charles Walker: Does my hon. Friend not agree made by hon. Members on both sides of the House, and that we have had a fairly settled democracy for the while my hon. Friend is technically correct, I find it past 350 years? So there are aspects of the system that hard to imagine that a Government who wished to call he can recommend to the House as well. an early general election for their own political advantage would engineer a vote of no confidence that they would Dan Byles: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for then lose on the Floor of the House, because that would alluding to an argument that I have heard time and be a disastrous start to a general election campaign. again, when people suggest, “If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it,” but I shall come to the problems with the current 7pm situation in a moment. He also alludes to the interesting idea that we have a democratic system that works, so we Kelvin Hopkins: When I first heard the suggestion, I should not amend or tinker with it. I have heard Opposition thought that the electorate might consider that such a Members support that idea before. I have heard it Government had behaved irresponsibly and therefore suggested that, somehow, the Bill is undemocratic. With should not receive its support, but if the vote was a the greatest respect to my hon. Friends, I find that an simple device for calling an early election that took only extraordinary argument. That line of reasoning seems a few hours, the hon. Member for North East Somerset 755 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 756

(Jacob Rees-Mogg) has a point, in that the mechanism five-year Parliaments. The 1911 Act reduced the maximum would just be another way of calling an early election, length of a Parliament to five years from seven years by and the position would not be very different from where amending the Septennial Act 1715. we are now. Jacob Rees-Mogg: May I remind my hon. Friend that Dan Byles: I will have to agree to disagree with hon. the reduction from seven to five years took place because Members about this, but I do not think that a Government the House of Lords was no longer able to block legislation, going into a general election would want to see headlines and it was therefore thought right that things should be on the front pages of The Sun and other tabloids referred to the electorate within a reasonable time? In screaming, “Government falls after losing confidence 1911 Members thought that that period was five years, vote in the House”. and what they thought in 1911 is a jolly good thing to think in 2011. Mr Charles Walker: Surely any legislation could be avoided if Prime Ministers were to say at the start of Dan Byles: As ever, I am extremely grateful to my their term whether they intended to run a five-year hon. Friend for his point. He and I believe that the Parliament. If they backed out of that arrangement wisdom of our forefathers should not be lightly dismissed. with the electorate after two and a half years, they would be judged accordingly, so why on earth do we Mr Charles Walker: If my hon. Friend believes that need legislation? the wisdom of our forefathers should not be easily dismissed, why is he supporting the Bill? Dan Byles: My hon. Friend makes a truly innovative suggestion. Dan Byles: I do not understand my hon. Friend’s point at all. Our forefathers decided that five years was Thomas Docherty: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? a reasonable maximum length for a Parliament.

Dan Byles: I shall be delighted to find out whether Chris Bryant: But when our forefathers reached that the hon. Gentleman can answer the point raised by my view, they pointed out that although the maximum hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker). length of a Parliament would be five years, in practice the length would nearly always be four years. Thomas Docherty: At the risk of rushing to the hon. Gentleman’s rescue, I suspect that Labour Members Dan Byles: The hon. Gentleman has advanced that tried that approach in the previous Parliament, and I do argument before, but I am aware that another interpretation not recall it ending particularly well for the former is that if a Parliament lasts five years, only about four Prime Minister. years’ work gets done in practice, because Governments find it harder to get their business through in the final Dan Byles: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for year as people are looking ahead to the next general his clever and well-reasoned argument. election: in effect, the election campaign starts.

Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab): Returning to the question Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con): As of party political advantage, why does the hon. Gentleman the House knows, three of the past five Parliaments think that the Government have chosen to specify a have run for five years, so it is not unreasonable to use term of five years, rather than four, in the Bill? five years as a guide.

Dan Byles: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman Dan Byles: My hon. Friend makes a valid point. raises that question, because I would like to address The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) likes that issue, which is one of the “straw man” arguments to cite a figure of 3.7 years as the average length of a that opponents of the Bill regularly cite. Some who Parliament since 1945—he does not need to jump up oppose the Bill argue against the whole principle of and do so again now—but we need to tackle that fixed-term Parliaments, while others claim to support statistic head on, because it is quite disingenuous. The that principle, but tackle the issue of whether the term statistic includes the three occasions on which a Parliament should be five years or four. lasted for less than two years. No one would suggest What should we make of the term set out in the Bill? I that Parliaments of less than two years should be the think that I am safe in saying that the term length is a norm—they occur in unusual circumstances—so it is key sticking point for Labour Members who accept the misleading to include them in statistics to show the principle of fixed-term Parliaments yet still cannot bring average length of a Parliament since 1945. themselves to support the Bill. Many of them hang their hat on the fact that five-year, rather than four-year, Kelvin Hopkins: Is not the great advantage of our terms are proposed. present system that if a Government do not get a If we are to consider that point in detail, it is important particularly big majority—such as in 1964 and that we understand where we are and how we came to February 1974—the arrangements are sufficiently flexible be here. At present the maximum length of a Parliament to allow us to hold another general election fairly soon is five years—let us make no bones about that—and I afterwards so that one party or another can get a do not recall any recent cries of anguish from Labour reasonable majority? Members that the historical five-year Parliament is wrong. Indeed, that maximum limit was established Dan Byles: The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting under the Parliament Act 1911, so Labour Members argument, because he seems to suggest that any Government have had a long time to express their opposition to of the day should have such a strong majority that they 757 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 758

[Dan Byles] given the total and absolute mess that the country is in, having a term long enough to enable us to get out of can bash their legislation through. I believe that Labour that mess is a good idea? Members referred to that arrangement as an elective dictatorship when they were on the wrong side of such Dan Byles: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s figures in the 1980s. In this day and age, if a Government comments. One problem sometimes cited in relation to need to be a bit more consensual and cleverer about a democratic system such as ours is the tendency for getting their business through the House, it is considered Governments to take the short-term approach to fixing to be a good thing. Do we really want to say that problems. If five years became the norm, that would whenever a Government do not have a huge thumping help to create slightly more stable government, because majority we should have another election? Governments could look to the longer term when considering some of the difficult decisions that they Dr McCrea: Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the might have to make, and not always be worried that Bill was born out of real conviction, and has nothing to they were only a few years from a general election. do with political convenience designed to enable the It seems that five-year Parliaments are not a problem Government to keep going over five years while we get for Labour Members when it is their party that is out of the economic mess that we are in? clinging to power in the dying days of a Government, as was the case in 2009 and 2010. True to form, their Dan Byles: I genuinely do not believe that that is the principles changed the moment they found themselves reason. in opposition. Now, sadly, they stand as obstacles to reform. May I conclude the point about whether the term My hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and should be four years or five, and move on with my Hythe (Damian Collins) pointed out that three of the speech? last five Parliaments lasted five years, and I was developing a point about the average length of post-1945 Parliaments. Mr Charles Walker: Is my hon. Friend not concerned If the three failed Parliaments lasting less than two about the prorogation of Parliament? Will he address years are stripped out, the average length of a Parliament that matter when he has finished his opening remarks? since 1945 has been more than four years. Since 1974 Dan Byles: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his the lengths have been even greater, so there is a clear intervention. I am extremely concerned about that point, trend that Parliaments are lasting longer. and very eager to get on to the part of my speech in which I shall address it. However, I want to conclude Thomas Docherty: I am fascinated by the hon. the point, which I was pulled on to by interventions, Gentleman’s logic, but does he accept that, with the about whether the term should be fixed at four years or exception of the Parliament between 1987 and 1992, five. I turn again to the conclusions and recommendations every Parliament since the 1950s that has lasted longer in the report on the Bill produced by the Political than four years has ended with the defeat of the governing and Constitutional Reform Committee, which has party at a general election? Frankly, if the Prime Ministers already been quoted today by Labour Members. in those Parliaments could have gone on longer they Recommendation 5 clearly states: would have done, just to avoid the electorate. “Precedent gives no clear answer as to whether Parliaments should last four years or five.” Dan Byles: If the hon. Gentleman is arguing that In recommendation 6 the report acknowledges the views Parliaments that last for five years are more likely to expressed by some witnesses that four years might be end with the defeat of the Government, he should be better than five. Nevertheless, the recommendation clearly wholeheartedly embracing the coalition’s plans to make states that that this Parliament last for five years. “is an important point, but not one that we would wish to see obstruct the passage of the Bill through the House.” If there is something so constitutionally or democratically That is important, and I hope that Labour Members wrong with five-year Parliaments, why on earth did we will take note of it. have to endure the previous Government from 2005 until 2010? If five-year Parliaments are wrong in principle, Before moving on to the subject of the amendments as several Labour Members seem to suggest, why did before the House, I would like briefly to— not the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Thomas Docherty: On a point of order, Mr Deputy (Mr Brown)—I apologise if I have not pronounced the Speaker. My understanding of the procedures of the right hon. Gentleman’s constituency correctly, but as I House is that Members need to refer directly to the have heard him speak in the House so rarely, I am not proposals on the amendment paper, not rehash or rehearse sure how to pronounce it—do the entire country a a debate that took place previously, and at some length. favour and call an election in 2009? We then could have started clearing up the mess of the worst financial Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle): First, it is deficit that this country has faced since the second for me to decide whether a Member is straying out of world war a year earlier. line. I would say to Mr Byles that he has to keep in order on new clause 4. He has drifted a little, but he keeps coming back to the matter of four years or five. I am John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): Obviously sure that he has taken those remarks on board, and that there is a debate about whether the figure should be we can continue. four years or five—although nobody has proposed a fixed-term Parliament of 3.7 years. Does the hon. Dan Byles: I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Gentleman agree that while there is not necessarily a I have almost come to the end of my scene-setting massive difference between four years and five years, remarks and will get into considerably more detail on 759 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 760 the amendments very shortly. Before I do, I want to Regent rode in the State Coach with a cavalry escort through refer to confidence votes and thresholds, which have St James’s Park to the , and on his arrival already been mentioned this afternoon, including by was announced with a salute of cannon.” Labour Members. Although we are moving to a system of fixed-term Mr Charles Walker: A lot of Labour Members are Parliaments, it would clearly be unusual and wrong to muttering at the history lesson that my hon. Friend is put in place a system that did not allow for early giving us, but is he not demonstrating how important it elections, in one of two scenarios: if the confidence of is in this matter to set the scene in an historical context, the House could not be held by a party leader, or if bearing in mind the fact that we are overturning 350 years there were an emergency of some sort, or another of constitutional precedent? exceptional circumstance that required an early election in the national interest. I believe that the Bill as it Dan Byles: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend stands, unamended— for his intervention. That is exactly the point that I would have made. 7.15 pm The Bill is truly historic. That fact has been mentioned Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman by numerous Members on both sides of the House, and should be relating his remarks to new clause 4 and the to consider it in isolation—what it means to us now, amendments grouped with it. We do not need to drift back rather than its place within the sweep of the history of to other subjects; we have gone beyond them. I remind our nation—would be wrong. him that we need to stick to the subject in hand. Chris Bryant: I agree that historical precedent is Dan Byles: I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, important, but I think the last time the monarch was and I apologise. [Interruption.] involved directly in a speech made before Prorogation Mr Deputy Speaker: Order. I say to those on the two was 1851 or 1854, so we are going back some time. Front Benches, can we please continue? Since then there has been quite a transformation of the Prorogation system. Dan Byles: Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall move on to new clause 4, which sets out new Dan Byles: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for rules for the prorogation—I have as much trouble as the his intervention. hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) with that word—of Parliament and would repeal the Prorogation Jacob Rees-Mogg: It may interest the House to know Act 1867, which provides the power for Her Majesty to that in the 1830s King William IV was going to come in issue a proclamation for the prorogation of Parliament. person to prorogue Parliament, because that would I think I got that right. bring all business to a stop and the Government did not As the House is aware, Prorogation marks the end of like the business that was going on. I believe that, in the a parliamentary Session and is the formal name given to end, that turned out not to be necessary. the period between the end of one Session of Parliament and the state opening of Parliament, which begins the Dan Byles: I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend next Session. The parliamentary Session may also be for his intervention. Again he demonstrates why it is so prorogued before Parliament is dissolved and a general important to maintain a thorough understanding of election called. history if we are to understand exactly what our position It is worth reminding ourselves that the term in this place is in the context— “prorogation” is derived from the Roman concept of prorogatio. In the constitution of ancient Rome, prorogatio Mr Walker: Is there not a danger that at times we in was the extension of a commander’s imperium beyond this place give the impression of having the clear thinking the one-year term of his magistracy. Prorogatio developed of the totally uninformed? as a legal procedure in response to Roman expansionism and militarisation. Dan Byles: It pains me wholeheartedly to agree with In the context of the Westminster system, Prorogation my hon. Friend that that is absolutely the case. or Dissolution of Parliament on the final day of the Session originally, according to the House of Lords Chris Bryant: But in 1831 the row about Dissolution Library, comprised four principal elements. First, the and Prorogation, which was all about the proposed Speaker made a speech mainly concerned with the Great Reform Act, led to a phenomenal row in this Subsidy Bill, which he had brought up from the Commons. House between the Conservatives and the Whig This was followed by a speech from the Lord Chancellor Government, precisely on the basis of whose decision it or Lord Keeper replying to the points made by the should be that Prorogation should proceed. Speaker and expressing thanks for the Subsidy Bill. Royal Assent was then given to the Bills passed by both Dan Byles: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman Houses. Finally, the Lord Chancellor, in obedience to for joining our discussion of the history pertaining to the sovereign’s instructions, either prorogued or dissolved prorogation. I am glad that he has recognised that Parliament. The sovereign was customarily present on understanding the history of how we have got to where those occasions, and from the 17th century onwards, we are today is relevant to the discussion at hand. usually made the speech before Prorogation or Dissolution. However, as the House is clearly not in the mood to Hon. Members will, I am sure, be fascinated to learn discuss history today, and as I am aware that time is from the Library’s excellent note that pressing, I want to move on and make a final point “In the early nineteenth century the prorogation was still about amendment 9 before bringing my remarks to a accompanied with considerable ceremony. Thus in 1815 the Prince conclusion. 761 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 762

[Dan Byles] series of tidying-up amendments, as we would describe them, although I understand that not every hon. Member Clause 3 states: supports that principle. “Once Parliament dissolves, Her Majesty may issue the proclamation summoning the new Parliament which may… Mr Charles Walker: As a matter of interest, how will (a) appoint the day for the first meeting of the new Parliament”. the hon. Gentleman vote on Third Reading tonight? Amendment 9 would add: “within 15 working days of the polling day”. Thomas Docherty: I do not like to leave the House in The issue has already been discussed, but I am concerned suspense, but on this one occasion hon. Members will that the amendment remains a little woolly. I question have to wait and see how many of our amendments the its purpose. What does a working day mean? Does that Government are prepared to accept. Clearly, if the take into account religious holidays? There has already Minister accepts all the considered amendments that we been a discussion about whether “working day” or have offered, we would be more than happy to give “days” should be used. If that is an issue that the strong consideration to supporting Third Reading. I look Opposition are concerned about, the term “working forward to the Minister’s reply shortly. days” remains vague. Are bank holidays in other parts of the United Kingdom to be taken into account? Kelvin Hopkins: My hon. Friend is being very generous Is it not difficult to add “within 15 working days” in to the Government. Even if they accepted the amendments, such specific terms, when “working days” could mean I would be inclined to vote against Third Reading. something entirely different in another part of the United Kingdom? In particular, why is Labour adamant Thomas Docherty: The Minister is a thoroughly about 15 working days? Is there any rationale or logic reasonable individual and I am sure he will not hold behind this number? Why not 14 days or 16 days? If we that statement against the rest of Her Majesty’s loyal believe in evidence-based policy making in this place— Opposition when he considers accepting our amendments. [Interruption.] I detect some chuckling. Perhaps that is As has been outlined previously—it would be a dangerous thought. Evidence is not always welcome inappropriate for me to go into great detail—we do not in this place. I have discovered that in previous debates. support the principle of a five-year term, for one practical Perhaps when he sums up, the hon. Member for Rhondda reason that has not been touched on before, which is will explain to us why 15 days is the magic number, that it would take us into a clash with the Scottish not 14 or 16. Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland The House has indulged me enough. Time is pressing elections that are scheduled for 2015. and there may be others who wish to speak. I thank the As this is the first opportunity that the Minister has House for its attention. had to address the House on the matter since our Committee stage last year, I hope that he will be able to Thomas Docherty: I shall keep my remarks brief as I provide us with an update on the Government’s plans understand that the Prime Minister might be rushing for providing flexibility to the devolved Administrations back to make a statement to the House about the to vary the dates of their elections. That is an extremely commercialisation of Downing street following the personal matter, as I shall explain. Perhaps he can tell revelations from the hon. Member for Grantham and the House what progress has been made in his consultation Stamford (Nick Boles) earlier this evening. I understand with the devolved Administrations on how any such that the Liberal Democrats have a large campaign debt alteration of the date of their elections would be achieved. to pay off from Oldham East and Saddleworth. That is directly relevant to the issue under discussion May I gently tease colleagues on the Government because of the different number of days of Prorogation. Benches about the importance of referring to the United As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda outlined, Kingdom when speaking about our nation state? I am we have 25 days out for the Scottish Parliament, the sure all colleagues are aware that we are not just England Northern Ireland Assembly, the National Assembly for or Britain; we are the United Kingdom. Wales and local elections, and just 17 days for this place. My hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Let me give a simple local example to show why new Bryant) helpfully referred to an earlier edition of “Erskine clause 4 and others are so important to the date. May” with reference to the shouting of the phrase The differing number of days out will cause great “Shame!” from a sedentary position. It might help the confusion for parties and for the electorate in the 2015 House if I clarify that that applied up to the 19th edition election cycle. Part of my constituency is called the of “Erskine May”. Since then, I am advised, the term Dunfermline East Scottish Parliament seat. We have an has been removed from “Erskine May” and is therefore, MSP called Helen Eadie. Under the current rules—we I imagine, legitimate. still do not have firm proposals from the Government Addressing new clause 4 and the associated amendments to alter the date—some two and a half weeks from which, as “Erskine May” says, is the purpose of the polling day it would be legitimate for the Labour party, debate, I shall tackle head-on the question whether the for example, to send out leaflets saying, “Vote Helen Opposition support the principle of a fixed-term Parliament. Eadie for your Member of the Scottish Parliament and It is well known that we did not oppose Second Reading vote Thomas Docherty for Member of Parliament.” because we support the principle of a fixed-term Parliament. That is an unsatisfactory situation, and it is the reason Our specific objections have been not just to the length— why my hon. Friend and I are hoping to persuade the four or five years—but to some of the technical issues, Minister tonight that he should change the length of which is why my hon. Friends the Members for Rhondda Prorogation to 25 days to give us consistency across the and for Foyle (Mark Durkan) and others have tabled a whole of the United Kingdom. 763 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 764

There is also the question of how campaign finance because there has been some discussion of the fact that will work. Members are painfully aware of the importance none of those cases was the direct result of a no-confidence of ensuring that money is correctly apportioned to the vote. I remind the House that in 1940 the Government long campaign, as it is commonly known, as opposed to of the then Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain, fell the short campaign. Joint elections could give rise to on what is largely accepted to have effectively been a difficult legal and technical disputes, as we saw in the vote of no confidence. It was a no-confidence vote by case of the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the any other name. As the Parliamentary Secretary and right hon. Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and the Deputy Leader of the House have accepted, under Tweeddale (David Mundell), if sums of money are their proposals there could be a no-confidence motion inadvertently misallocated. We therefore hope that the that is not officially stamped as such. As you will know, Government will accept our reasonable amendment. Mr Deputy Speaker, in 1940 the House did not prorogue. There was simply a change of Administration, and a Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD): Does the hon. short time later a coalition Government was formed Gentleman accept that such anomalies already exist involving all three parties. In the immediate aftermath and have existed for a long time? In England it is of the fall of the Chamberlain Government, there was common for local government elections to be held on no coalition, and nor was the House prorogued. the same day as a parliamentary election. In Bristol those local government elections follow an entirely different Damian Collins: The hon. Gentleman is referring to timetable from the parliamentary election. the vote that followed the Norway debate, which the then Government won. However, they chose to change Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman makes a their leadership anyway as a result of the pressure of perfectly sensible point, although I always caution hon. the vote. If circumstances were repeated and that was Members not to equate local elections in England to considered to be a confidence motion, it would not lead elections to the devolved Administrations. There is a to the fall of the Government unless they chose to go. substantive difference in the amount of spend that is Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman highlights a allowed, and the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland crucial element, and as my hon. Friend the Member for devolved elections use the same formulas for election Foyle mentioned earlier—the hon. Gentleman will correct spend. Perhaps it was an oversight of previous Governments me if I am wrong—that was an Adjournment debate not to address the valid point that the hon. Gentleman and was not even a formal resolution. That shows makes. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster exactly the problem with the Bill as it is worded. It North (Edward Miliband) has said, we are prepared to accepts the principle that there is no requirement for a admit that we did not achieve all the legislation that we formal vote of no confidence, but it does not accept would like to have achieved, although if we were to ask those nuances that are part of the argument that, even if the electorate what was the most important thing that a Government win but do not meet a threshold that we could have achieved, fixing that would not necessarily they have set beforehand, they have in effect fallen. have been the top priority. I can think of another example from our devolved Reference has been made to the issue of Prime Ministers Administrations. It was clear in 2001 that the then First handing over power to their party or other parties. Minister of Scotland, Henry McLeish, had lost the I think that the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford confidence of the Scottish Parliament and of his party. misunderstood the difference between the House being On the morning of the no-confidence debate he resigned adjourned and the House being prorogued. As you as First Minister. That did not lead to the proroguing of know, Mr Deputy Speaker, if the House is adjourned, the Scottish Parliament. It was an unprecedented event existing legislation is not lost. If it prorogues, however, in the short history of the Scottish Parliament, but it all legislation except public Bills falls and the legislative survived. I hope that the Minister will, even at this late process must start again. That is why it is important stage, take on board the fact that, as far as Oppositions that when the Parliamentary Resources Unit produces ever are, we are seeking to be helpful to the Government, its next brief for Conservative Members it should spend and certainly to the House, by providing some technical some time getting those details correct. amendments to tidy up the Bill. 7.30 pm The hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) referred to France and the United States. I was not The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford, and aware that he was such a Francophile, but perhaps that several other Government Members, asked for examples is the result of the new coalition spirit. My understanding—I of when Prime Ministers have succeeded leaders of am happy to be corrected—is that the French President their own party in that office. Obviously, Prime Ministers has the power to summarily dismiss the Prime Minister, from both main parties have succeeded without general but I suspect that the hon. Gentleman is not advocating elections and without the need for the House to prorogue. that we adopt the same position in this country. That happened in 1957, 1963, 1976, 1990 and, of course, 2007. As the Minister knows, I am something of a bore on the subject of the United States’ constitution. When the Mr Walker: Does the hon. Gentleman not think that founding fathers of the United States were considering that is a perfectly healthy thing to happen? We do not the peculiarities of their arrangements in the constitutional elect Prime Ministers here; we elect parties and the convention, one thing they desperately tried to avoid Prime Minister is simply a Member of Parliament who was over-lengthy terms of office. That is why they have comes from the victorious party or the coalition. elections every two years in their states. Votes for Congress, the Senate and the Presidency are staggered. Although I Thomas Docherty: The hon. Gentleman makes a accept that the hon. Member for North Warwickshire is completely sensible point that goes to the heart of some trying gallantly to defend the Minister’s position, I fear of our arguments tonight. I will give a specific example, that it is not a straightforward example to apply in this 765 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 766

[Thomas Docherty] arrangements and will persist after the passage of the Bill. I am indebted to the House of Lords Constitution case. I have spoken in favour of the amendments, but I Committee, which someone casually looking at our am conscious that the Prime Minister will be rushing to debate might imagine had been critical of the provisions the House and that the Minister wishes to reply, so I will in this part of the Bill, but far from it. It examined the end my comments. matter in some detail, and the witnesses were unanimous in their view. Paragraph 147 states: Mr Heath: I do not think that the House has had as “Professor Bradley agreed that such a possibility, while theoretically elegant and extensive a debate on Prorogation since the possible, ‘would be very unsatisfactory and British politics would legislation was passed in 1867. I am grateful to the hon. have sunk to a new low.’” Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) for opening the Professor Bogdanor was mentioned earlier, and the debate and to the hon. Members for Grantham and confidences of the tutorials between him and my hon. Stamford (Nick Boles), for Foyle (Mark Durkan), for Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) and for Dunfermline Rees-Mogg) might or might not have been breached, and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) for their contributions. but he suggested that the situation could reasonably I must say, however, that the hon. Member for Dunfermline “be left to the discretion of a ‘wise constitutional monarch’”, and West Fife blotted his escutcheon as a political anorak by being four editions of Erskine May off the which is indeed what we have, pace. To quote the 19th edition when we are now up to “who would not prorogue at the request of a Prime Minister who the 23rd is really beyond the pale. no longer had the confidence of the House.” The Committee, having heard the evidence rather than Thomas Docherty: For the benefit of the Deputy the conjecture, concluded: Leader of the House and of the Official Report,my “We agree that the risk of abuse of the power of prorogation is point was that my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda very small. We therefore conclude that Her Majesty’s power to (Chris Bryant) referred to the fact that up until the prorogue Parliament should remain.” 19th edition of “Erskine May” the word “shame” was not allowed. My point was that we have moved on, and So, there was very clear advice from the noble members I have the 23rd edition in my hand. of that Lords Committee, and I am sure that it will colour their consideration of the matter. Mr Heath: I am most grateful to the hon. Gentleman We have heard from lots of people who profess to for restoring my faith in his credentials, although he has know what happened in Canada, but, just in case there destroyed those of the hon. Member for Rhondda. are lingering concerns about the extraordinary situation The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford put of the Prorogation that apparently saved the Canadian his finger on what was wrong with the debate once we Government, I note that the Lords Committee took had prised him from his views on reasonably priced evidence from an academic who probably knows a little white wine, because he made the point, which I think more than any of us in this House about the Canadian was backed up by the hon. Member for Foyle, who political system. Professor Henry Milner, from l’université mentioned an Urquhart-like Prime Minister, that many de Montréal, stated in his evidence: of the rather apocalyptic views of what an evil denizen “The Canadian case was unique because prorogation saved the of No. 10 might do seem to be founded on fancy, rather government, which it normally should not. ... [The] circumstances than on experience or expectation. We have been asked [were] so unusual that you could not imagine them. I would have repeatedly to assume that every convention that applies to give you each of the steps in the Canadian case, all of which were unlikely and all of which fitted together. Frankly, I would has applied and will apply, whether the Bill becomes not worry about it.” law, as I hope it will, or not. All those conventions would be summarily set aside. That is probably a safe conclusion for this House. It has been suggested that there would be confidence On the proposed changes before us, I shall deal, first, motions that no Member of the House, not even with new clause 4, tabled by the hon. Member for Mr Speaker, would recognise as confidence motions. It Rhondda, and the consequential amendments 2, 3 and 4, has been suggested that Prime Ministers who lose a vote which would give the House a new and exclusive power of confidence might refuse to resign and remain in to prorogue Parliament. Most contributors to the debate office despite the fact that they had lost the vote, or that were clear about this, but we need to make a clear if once they resign they might somehow give posthumous distinction between Dissolution and Prorogation, because advice from beyond the political grave to Her Majesty they are very different things, and the Government to prorogue and therefore frustrate the intentions of the believe it important that the Bill provides the House House and of the legislation. It is then suggested that with the power to decide when there should be a Dissolution Her Majesty, in a way that has never been the experience of Parliament. of any Member of this House or our predecessors, It is legitimate to give the House control over early would be so forgetful of her constitutional duty that she Dissolution, because that will take place only in would not ask another leader capable of commanding circumstances where the Government of the day have the confidence of the House to form a Government and lost the confidence of the House and can therefore no end any temporary Prorogation. longer lead the country effectively, or where a two-thirds I believe that those are fanciful concerns. I accept that majority of elected MPs has passed a motion calling for they are theoretically possible, but I ask the House to an early election. Those are matters directly concerned consider whether any of those things have happened. with the choice of Government and the election of Almost all of them are included in the conventions that Members, and it is right that this elected House should cover our political system and our current constitutional have primacy. 767 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 768

Prorogation, however, is a different matter. Hon. barrier to the new clause, and we have heard differing Members will know that it is a mechanism to bring to views on the value of the Prorogation ceremony: the an end a Session of Parliament. It determines, subject hon. Member for Rhondda rather likes it; the hon. to the carry-over procedure, when Bills must have completed Member for Foyle feels that bicorn hats are not his their passage through both Houses so that they become style. Nevertheless, that is part of our constitutional law. That relates to the point that several hon. Members settlement and part of the procedures of the House, made, whereby, if we prorogue while Bills are still in and a lot of people quite like to wander down the process, they are lost. Sometimes, an incoming Government corridor to hear the Prorogation ceremony and, as the will wish that; sometimes, they will not, particularly if hon. Member for Rhondda says from a sedentary position, they are of a similar political complexion to the previous a little Norman French—which we hear so little of Administration. nowadays. The hon. Gentleman’s new clause places no obligation On the basis of those arguments, the Government are to consult or agree with the other place on the timing or not able to support new clause 4 and its consequential length of Prorogation, even though it affects that House amendments. equally. The new clause would therefore give this House a controlling hand over the conduct of business in the Thomas Docherty: I have listened attentively to the other place by providing us with the power to dictate Minister’s remarks. Notwithstanding his reluctance to when the other House must have completed its business. support our reasoned amendment, will he outline where That would be a significant departure from the current he has got to, therefore, in discussions with the devolved situation in the wash-up, and some might view it as an Administrations about how the elections will work, and unwelcome extension of this House’s powers. outline when we will see proposed legislation? Clearly, As I said in earlier debates, through this Bill the there is a significant knock-on effect for devolved elections. Government seek to make only those changes to the constitution necessary to facilitate the principle of fixed-term Mr Heath: I would do so, but that would impinge on Parliaments. The proposed new clause seems to fall the following group of amendments, and the Parliamentary wide of that intention. Secretary, Cabinet Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), will be able to respond 7.45 pm to that point during the debate about them. It would be I have to draw attention to a few technical deficiencies. unwise for me to leap ahead, so, although I am grateful I am always slightly loth to do so, as Members often for the hon. Gentleman’s point, I hope that he accepts wish to raise and debate a principle and the drafting my response. falls short of their intention, but we need to examine I shall address other issues that have been raised in the matter, because we are on Report. First, there is relation to the Prime Minister’s existing power to prorogue some ambiguity about where the actual power of Parliament, because, as I stressed at the beginning of Prorogation would lie. my response and stress again, many of the arguments Proposed new subsection (3) states: are based on the theoretical mischief that, somehow, a “The Speaker of the House of Commons shall not make such Prime Minister might prorogue Parliament for his or a declaration unless the House of Commons has passed a resolution her own purposes, without accepting the fact that they directing him to do so on or before a specific date and time.” can do so equally today. They can do so, as I said in my So, the House would clearly direct the Speaker. In intervention on the hon. Member for Rhondda, to proposed new subsection (4), however, the Speaker may prevent a vote of confidence that they feel likely to lose. vary the period of Prorogation by an unlimited number So, with the Bill we are not strengthening the hand of of days, apparently without a direction from the House. the Prime Minister; far from it. We are taking away one There is no mechanism to specify how the Speaker critical element, but Prorogation will remain exactly as might make such a declaration when the House is not it is. sitting on account of its having been prorogued. That is The conventions of this House are sufficiently strong. particularly important, given that the new clause states For instance, there is no obligation in law for the that the Speaker may vary the date of Prorogation “to business managers to find time to debate an Opposition an earlier…day,” presumably to provide for the option motion of no confidence, but the strong convention is of recalling Parliament when it is prorogued. We can that time will always be found for that purpose, because only assume, however, that the new clause intends the it is a convention that has worked well over the years. I Speaker to have the power to decide unilaterally when do not believe that there is any reason why it should not Parliament may return from a period of Prorogation, work well in the future. I cannot accept that the artificial and, if it is intended that the Speaker should do so on process that has been described is a real danger. advice, the new clause does not make it clear on whose Let us consider the circumstances. There are two advice that would be. If the intention is that the House basic scenarios during the 14-day period in the Bill. In must direct the Speaker when varying the period of the first, political factors mean that a no-confidence Prorogation, the proposed system will not allow that to motion passes, and there is no obvious alternative happen, and that seems to be inconsistent with the Government, so the Prime Minister who has lost the desire to place the power relating to Prorogation with a confidence of the House remains in place to fight the decision of the House itself. election. There would be no need, or indeed point, for Further, it is not clear whether proposed new the Prime Minister to prorogue the House. The alternative subsection (3) is intended to replace or supplement the is that the Prime Minister resigns after the no-confidence existing Prorogation announcement that is made to motion and Her Majesty appoints a new Prime Minister. both Houses and read in the other place with this Even if the new Prime Minister took office and found the House in attendance. I accept that that is not an insuperable House prorogued, he or she would, under the current 769 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 770

[Mr Heath] should the date not be fixed then, rather than it being left up to the Prime Minister? Under the Bill, the arrangements, ask the Queen to recall Parliament. Although House, by a two-thirds majority, would be handing a I acknowledge the principle behind new clause 4 and power back to the Prime Minister that the Prime Minister amendments 2, 3 and 4, I hope that I have demonstrated says he wants to give up. that it would be unwise and unnecessary to make them. On amendment 9, clause 3(4) specifically preserves Mr Heath: I do not dismiss the hon. Gentleman’s Her Majesty’s power to set the first day for the meeting arguments. I understand what he is saying. However, in of a new Parliament by royal proclamation. As it stands, purely practical terms, it is difficult for the House to the date of the first meeting of a new Parliament is set receive advice from any quarter on what would be an by proclamation and is usually agreed with the House appropriate date. The House as a whole would find it authorities and the palace. The date is conventionally difficult to take the sort of advice that the Prime Minister, set out in the proclamation that dissolves the old Parliament. as an individual, could easily assemble. In the politically The Bill retains as much as possible of that approach by charged atmosphere of a vote of no confidence, it is providing for the Queen to issue the proclamation hard to understand—[Interruption.] Sorry, not a vote summoning the new Parliament once the old Parliament of no confidence. I could see what the hon. Member for has dissolved, rather than after the new Parliament has Foyle was thinking. In the consideration of an early been elected. Following the last election, a date was election, it would be even more difficult to set. chosen that allowed sufficient time for the large number There are always technical issues in establishing the of new Members to be inducted. It is important that most appropriate date for a general election, and the such flexibility is preserved. considerations of all parts of the United Kingdom The purpose of amendment 9 appears to be to require must be taken into account. I know that the hon. Her Majesty to set a date for the first meeting of a Gentleman has had mixed experiences, but he knows Parliament that is within 15 working days of the general that it is the experience of the devolved Administrations election. Again, I have a quibble over drafting, because that it is useful in the circumstances that have been it is not entirely clear whether the intention behind suggested for an individual to have this responsibility. the amendment is that Her Majesty should issue the Giving it to the House as a whole would be technically proclamation within 15 working days, or whether the difficult, without a significant advance in the arrangements first meeting of Parliament should take place within being achieved. 15 working days. The hon. Member for Rhondda made I move on to amendment 8, which the hon. Member it clear that his intention was the latter, but that is not for Rhondda said “makes things tidy”, in the words of clear in the drafting of the amendment. Our primary his valet. I am sure that it would, and I have some purpose in the Bill has been to establish fixed terms and sympathy with his argument. The amendment would set out the procedures for initiating an early election. lengthen the election timetable by requiring Parliament We have made only the necessary consequential changes to dissolve 25 working days before polling day, rather to the Queen’s powers. I therefore ask the hon. Gentleman than 17. The Government recognise that remaking the not to press amendment 9. election timetable is a complex matter that we should Amendments 14 and 15, which were tabled by the consider. However, it cannot be done simply by edict hon. Member for Foyle, suggest that if the House votes and without the background work. for an early Dissolution under clause 2, it should be able The Electoral Commission supports the idea, as the to choose the date of the ensuing general election. The hon. Gentleman knows. He did not make a great deal of Bill provides that if there is to be an early general that in his speech, but I know that he knows the election, the date will be set by Her Majesty the Queen background material. The commission has suggested in a royal proclamation on the advice of the Prime that an extension to the electoral timetable would support Minister. That is to ensure that an appropriate date can participation by overseas and service voters, and better be found, for instance so that the poll can be held on a support the effective administration of elections. We Thursday, as has become standard practice. agree that it is an important issue, and the Deputy Although amendment 14 provides that the date of an Prime Minister has indicated to the commission that early general election would be set out in the Speaker’s there is merit in exploring a change to the timetable. certificate, that would be the case only if the House of However, as the commission has pointed out, it would Commons had specified such a date in the Dissolution require a thorough review to ensure that any change is motion. That is a genuine concern with the amendment consistent with the arrangements for elections across because a two-thirds majority is required to agree that the piece. there should be an early Dissolution. Under the amendment, A host of practical issues and consequential complexities two thirds of the House would also have to agree to the must be considered. We will have to form a balanced date of the election. It is quite possible that Members judgment on where particular milestones would best would agree to the one proposition and not the other. fall within an extended election timetable. For example, Alternative dates and amendments could therefore be there might be competing views about the deadline for tabled. That would muddy the water of what should be nominations, and we would have to work to find the a clear-cut process. That is a concern about the operation most effective compromise. Another crucial milestone of the Bill, if it is enacted, which perhaps the hon. is the deadline for registering to vote, which, although Gentleman has not considered. not part of the timetable structure, is inextricable from it. That illustrates that such changes to the timetable Mark Durkan: Amendment 14 would make it optional, cannot be made in isolation. As part of the process, we not obligatory, that a date be specified. If the House would need to consider the current deadlines for postal votes a year or more in advance of the election, why and proxy vote applications. Additionally, different elections 771 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 772 across the UK run to different timetables and moving to said that he wanted an eight or 12-day election campaign. 25 days in Westminster would not, of itself, generate I would just say to him again that there would be great consistency. advantages in having a 25-day election campaign. It As I have said, the Government agree that this is an would mirror what happens in the Scottish Parliament, important issue and we will set out our proposals on the Welsh Assembly and local elections, and would allow timetable in due course. We have held initial discussions service voters, who regularly try to vote, but whose with the Electoral Commission and the Association of votes do not arrive in the post in time, to have their Electoral Administrators to identify points to address. votes counted. I very much hope that we will be able to It should be noted that the Bill already greatly enhances move forward on that. the ability of administrators and candidates to plan I welcome what the Deputy Leader of the House said ahead, because we will know when general elections will about the measure just now, although I have never happen, usually at least five years in advance. The heard a Minister say at the Dispatch Box about an various people involved in running elections will be able amendment, “This is the right Bill to do it in”—it is to factor that into their thinking and organisation. always another place where it should be done. However, Even if the provisions for an early election were engaged, I am afraid that we are going to hold his feet to the fire the Bill sets out clearly the steps from the Dissolution on this occasion. motion or no-confidence motion to the Dissolution of The hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles), Parliament, and those steps will be conducted in the who holds the record in the “Guinness World Records” public eye. There will be no more snap elections, and I for rowing across the Atlantic, took us through a fair believe that electoral administrators and candidates can amount of British history. He effectively argued for be glad about that. longer and longer Parliaments. What I would say to The final reason for asking the hon. Member for him—and to all Government Members—is that the Rhondda not to pursue amendment 8, despite its merit provisions in the Bill will mean that this Parliament is and the fact that the issue needs to be considered, is that the longest Parliament in the world, as was confirmed the Bill is not the right place to amend the election by the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. timetable. The Bill is about fixing the date of the poll, Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) this evening. not wholesale electoral reform, as we have said repeatedly. The fixed term of five years, plus the additional provision Governments are constantly urged by everyone to have of another two months, will make it the longest in the focused legislation that deals with specific objects. This world. There will be fewer elections because of what is just such a piece of focused legislation and I do not this Bill will do. The hon. Member for Birmingham, want to cloud the simple but constitutionally significant Yardley (John Hemming), who is not in his place, said issue of fixing parliamentary terms with other electoral that the current special circumstances made that all the issues. more important. That is the charge that every dictator Having said that, I hope that the hon. Gentleman and has always advanced: that one should fix the constitution other hon. Members who have tabled amendments will to meet the special circumstances of the day. not press them to a vote, so that we can continue with The hon. Member for North Warwickshire asked the debate on the final group of amendments. why we had specified 15 working days, and also asked what the definition of a working day was. If he had Chris Bryant: I note that the Prime Minister’s drinks actually read the Bill, he would see that clause 3(5) says: party has clearly ended, because the whole Conservative party has gathered in the Chamber. We heard earlier “In this section ‘working day’ means any day other than— that the Prime Minister had been serving reasonably (a) a Saturday or Sunday; priced drinks, so I hope that all hon. Members paid for them. (b) a Christmas Eve, Christmas Day or Good Friday;

8pm (c) a day which is a bank holiday under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 in any part of the The hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick United Kingdom”. Boles) accused me of being far too tidy. Nobody has At his next outing in the Chamber, I look forward ever accused me of that before. He thinks that trying to to him reading the Bill before he takes part in the tidy up legislation is a socialist endeavour, but surely debate. that is what we do. The constant process that we are engaged in—the constant iteration of legislation—means The Deputy Leader of the House—these will be my looking at the common law and regularly updating it in concluding remarks—said that we had created a demon statute. For instance, I do not know whether he knows in people’s eyes, with this image of an evil denizen living what a brothel is, but—[Interruption.] I see from his at No. 10. Some of us are not all that impressed by the face that he does. In common law, the definition of a present denizen of No. 10. However, when we start brothel is a place frequented by men to perform lewd putting into statute some of the elements of the conventions homosexual practices, including dancing, so sometimes that have applied in this House across the centuries, it is necessary to correct the common law. Some of what there is a danger that people will use their powers we are doing in this Bill is putting convention and inappropriately. I believe that the right to sit and the common law into statute. The danger is that we will end right not to sit should be determined not by the Crown, up with a series of unintended consequences, and that is the Prime Minister or the Government of the day, but what I want to tidy up. by this House. I therefore urge hon. Members to support The hon. Gentleman said that he wanted much less our new clause, which has been tabled by my right hon. electioneering and campaigning, which is why he wanted Friend the Leader of the Opposition. shorter election campaigns—in a lighter moment he Question put, That the clause be a Second time. 773 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 774

The House divided: Ayes 229, Noes 325. Lucas, Ian Rotheram, Steve Division No. 172] [8.4 pm MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Roy, Mr Frank MacShane, rh Mr Denis Roy, Lindsay Mactaggart, Fiona Ruane, Chris AYES Mahmood, Shabana Ruddock, rh Joan Abrahams, Debbie Doyle, Gemma Mann, John Sarwar, Anas Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Dromey, Jack Marsden, Mr Gordon Seabeck, Alison Alexander, Heidi Dugher, Michael McCabe, Steve Shannon, Jim Ali, Rushanara Durkan, Mark McCann, Mr Michael Sheerman, Mr Barry Austin, Ian Eagle, Ms Angela McCarthy, Kerry Sheridan, Jim Bailey, Mr Adrian Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Shuker, Gavin Bain, Mr William Efford, Clive McDonagh, Siobhain Skinner, Mr Dennis Balls, rh Ed Elliott, Julie McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Slaughter, Mr Andy Banks, Gordon Ellman, Mrs Louise McFadden, rh Mr Pat Smith, rh Mr Andrew Barron, rh Mr Kevin Esterson, Bill McGovern, Alison Smith, Angela Bayley, Hugh Evans, Chris McGovern, Jim Smith, Nick Beckett, rh Margaret Field, rh Mr Frank McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Smith, Owen Benn, rh Hilary Fitzpatrick, Jim McKechin, Ann Soulsby, Sir Peter Benton, Mr Joe Flello, Robert Meacher, rh Mr Michael Spellar, rh Mr John Berger, Luciana Flint, rh Caroline Meale, Mr Alan Straw, rh Mr Jack Betts, Mr Clive Flynn, Paul Mearns, Ian Stringer, Graham Blackman-Woods, Roberta Fovargue, Yvonne Michael, rh Alun Tami, Mark Blears, rh Hazel Francis, Dr Hywel Miller, Andrew Thomas, Mr Gareth Blenkinsop, Tom Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Thornberry, Emily Blomfield, Paul Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Timms, rh Stephen Blunkett, rh Mr David Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Turner, Karl Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Twigg, Derek Brennan, Kevin Goodman, Helen (Easington) Twigg, Stephen Brown, rh Mr Gordon Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Umunna, Mr Chuka Brown, Lyn Griffith, Nia Munn, Meg Vaz, Valerie Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Mr Jim Walley, Joan Brown, Mr Russell Hain, rh Mr Peter Murphy, rh Paul Watson, Mr Tom Bryant, Chris Hamilton, Mr David Murray, Ian Watts, Mr Dave Buck, Ms Karen Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa Weir, Mr Mike Burden, Richard Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nash, Pamela Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Burnham, rh Andy Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Whitehead, Dr Alan Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Wicks, rh Malcolm Cairns, David Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert Williams, Hywel Campbell, Mr Alan Hermon, Lady Pearce, Teresa Williamson, Chris Campbell, Mr Ronnie Heyes, David Perkins, Toby Wilson, Phil Caton, Martin Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget Winnick, Mr David Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Clark, Katy Hodge, rh Margaret Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Wishart, Pete Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reed, Mr Jamie Woodcock, John Clwyd, rh Ann Hood, Mr Jim Reeves, Rachel Wright, David Coaker, Vernon Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Emma Wright, Mr Iain Coffey, Ann Hosie, Stewart Reynolds, Jonathan Connarty, Michael Howarth, rh Mr George Riordan, Mrs Linda Tellers for the Ayes: Cooper, Rosie Hunt, Tristram Robertson, John Mr David Anderson and Cooper, rh Yvette Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Corbyn, Jeremy Jackson, Glenda Crausby, Mr David James, Mrs Siân C. NOES Creagh, Mary Jamieson, Cathy Creasy, Dr Stella Johnson, Diana Adams, Nigel Bingham, Andrew Cryer, John Jones, Graham Afriyie, Adam Binley, Mr Brian Cunningham, Alex Jones, Helen Aldous, Peter Birtwistle, Gordon Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Mr Kevan Alexander, rh Danny Blackman, Bob Cunningham, Tony Jones, Susan Elan Andrew, Stuart Blackwood, Nicola Curran, Margaret Joyce, Eric Bacon, Mr Richard Blunt, Mr Crispin Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Bagshawe, Ms Louise Boles, Nick Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Baker, Steve Bone, Mr Peter David, Mr Wayne Kendall, Liz Baldry, Tony Bottomley, Sir Peter Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Baldwin, Harriett Bradley, Karen Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Barclay, Stephen Brady, Mr Graham De Piero, Gloria Lazarowicz, Mark Baron, Mr John Brake, Tom Denham, rh Mr John Leslie, Chris Barwell, Gavin Bray, Angie Dobbin, Jim Lewis, Mr Ivan Bebb, Guto Dobson, rh Frank Lloyd, Tony Beith, rh Sir Alan Brazier, Mr Julian Docherty, Thomas Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Bellingham, Mr Henry Bridgen, Andrew Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Long, Naomi Benyon, Richard Brine, Mr Steve Doran, Mr Frank Love, Mr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Brokenshire, James Dowd, Jim Lucas, Caroline Berry, Jake Brooke, Annette 775 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 776

Bruce, Fiona Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Luff, Peter Ruffley, Mr David Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew Lumley, Karen Russell, Bob Burley, Mr Aidan Gyimah, Mr Sam Macleod, Mary Rutley, David Burns, Mr Simon Halfon, Robert Main, Mrs Anne Sanders, Mr Adrian Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Maude, rh Mr Francis Sandys, Laura Burstow, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip May, rh Mrs Theresa Scott, Mr Lee Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen Maynard, Paul Selous, Andrew Byles, Dan Hancock, Matthew McCartney, Jason Shapps, rh Grant Cairns, Alun Hancock, Mr Mike McCartney, Karl Sharma, Alok Campbell, Mr Gregory Hands, Greg McCrea, Dr William Shelbrooke, Alec Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Harper, Mr Mark McIntosh, Miss Anne Simmonds, Mark Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Simpson, David Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca McPartland, Stephen Simpson, Mr Keith Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon McVey, Esther Skidmore, Chris Clappison, Mr James Harvey, Nick Menzies, Mark Smith, Miss Chloe Clark, rh Greg Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Mercer, Patrick Smith, Henry Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Hayes, Mr John Metcalfe, Stephen Smith, Julian Clegg, rh Mr Nick Heald, Mr Oliver Miller, Maria Smith, Sir Robert Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heath, Mr David Mills, Nigel Soames, Nicholas Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heaton-Harris, Chris Milton, Anne Soubry, Anna Collins, Damian Hemming, John Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Colvile, Oliver Henderson, Gordon Moore, rh Michael Spencer, Mr Mark Crockart, Mike Hendry, Charles Morgan, Nicky Stanley, rh Sir John Crouch, Tracey Herbert, rh Nick Morris, Anne Marie Stephenson, Andrew Davies, David T. C. Hinds, Damian Morris, David Stevenson, John (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Morris, James Stewart, Iain Davies, Glyn Hollobone, Mr Philip Mosley, Stephen Stewart, Rory Davis, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Mowat, David Streeter, Mr Gary de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kris Mulholland, Greg Stride, Mel Dinenage, Caroline Horwood, Martin Mundell, rh David Stuart, Mr Graham Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Munt, Tessa Stunell, Andrew Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hughes, rh Simon Murray, Sheryll Sturdy, Julian Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huhne, rh Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Swales, Ian Dorries, Nadine Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Neill, Robert Swayne, Mr Desmond Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunter, Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Swinson, Jo Duncan, rh Mr Alan Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Syms, Mr Robert Dunne, Mr Philip Jackson, Mr Stewart Nokes, Caroline Teather, Sarah Ellis, Michael James, Margot Norman, Jesse Thurso, John Ellison, Jane Javid, Sajid Nuttall, Mr David Timpson, Mr Edward Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Gareth Offord, Mr Matthew Tomlinson, Justin Eustice, George Johnson, Joseph Ollerenshaw, Eric Tredinnick, David Evans, Graham Jones, Andrew Opperman, Guy Truss, Elizabeth Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr David Ottaway, Richard Turner, Mr Andrew Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr Marcus Paice, rh Mr James Tyrie, Mr Andrew Fabricant, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Parish, Neil Uppal, Paul Fallon, Michael Kelly, Chris Patel, Priti Vara, Mr Shailesh Paterson, rh Mr Owen Farron, Tim Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Vickers, Martin Featherstone, Lynne Pawsey, Mark Kirby, Simon Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Field, Mr Mark Penning, Mike Knight, rh Mr Greg Walker, Mr Charles Foster, rh Mr Don Penrose, John Kwarteng, Kwasi Walker, Mr Robin Francois, rh Mr Mark Percy, Andrew Laing, Mrs Eleanor Wallace, Mr Ben Freeman, George Perry, Claire Freer, Mike Lamb, Norman Phillips, Stephen Walter, Mr Robert Fullbrook, Lorraine Lancaster, Mark Pickles, rh Mr Eric Ward, Mr David Fuller, Richard Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pincher, Christopher Watkinson, Angela Gale, Mr Roger Latham, Pauline Poulter, Dr Daniel Weatherley, Mike Garnier, Mr Edward Laws, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Webb, Steve Garnier, Mark Leadsom, Andrea Pritchard, Mark Wharton, James Gauke, Mr David Lee, Jessica Pugh, John Wheeler, Heather George, Andrew Lee, Dr Phillip Raab, Mr Dominic White, Chris Gibb, Mr Nick Leech, Mr John Randall, rh Mr John Whittingdale, Mr John Gilbert, Stephen Lefroy, Jeremy Reckless, Mark Wiggin, Bill Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Leslie, Charlotte Redwood, rh Mr John Willetts, rh Mr David Goldsmith, Zac Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Rees-Mogg, Jacob Williams, Mr Mark Goodwill, Mr Robert Lewis, Brandon Reevell, Simon Williams, Roger Gove, rh Michael Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Reid, Mr Alan Williams, Stephen Graham, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Williamson, Gavin Grant, Mrs Helen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob Gray, Mr James Lloyd, Stephen Robertson, Mr Laurence Wilson, Sammy Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Rogerson, Dan Wollaston, Dr Sarah Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan Rosindell, Andrew Wright, Jeremy Greening, Justine Loughton, Tim Rudd, Amber Wright, Simon 777 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 778

Yeo, Mr Tim Tellers for the Noes: David, Mr Wayne Lazarowicz, Mark Young, rh Sir George James Duddridge and Davidson, Mr Ian Leslie, Chris Zahawi, Nadhim Davies, Geraint Lewis, Mr Ivan De Piero, Gloria Lloyd, Tony Question accordingly negatived. Denham, rh Mr John Love, Mr Andrew Dobbin, Jim Lucas, Caroline Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Ian New Clause 5 Docherty, Thomas Mactaggart, Fiona Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Mahmood, Shabana Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mann, John EXPIRY AND REVIVAL OF SECTION 2 Doran, Mr Frank Marsden, Mr Gordon ‘(1) Section 2 expires when the Parliament summoned to meet Dowd, Jim McCabe, Steve in May 2010 dissolves. Doyle, Gemma McCann, Mr Michael (2) In the course of the first month of the day of first meeting Dromey, Jack McCarthy, Kerry of any Parliament after the expiry of section 2 as a result of Dugher, Michael McClymont, Gregg subsection (1) above, the Minister may by order bring the section Durkan, Mark McCrea, Dr William back into force for the remainder of that Parliament. Eagle, Ms Angela McDonagh, Siobhain (3) An order made under subsection (2) above is to be made by Efford, Clive McDonnell, Dr Alasdair statutory instrument and shall not be made unless a draft of the Elliott, Julie McFadden, rh Mr Pat instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of Ellman, Mrs Louise McGovern, Alison the House of Commons. Esterson, Bill McGovern, Jim (4) If no order has been made under subsection (2) above, an Evans, Chris McGuire, rh Mrs Anne early parliamentary general election is to take place only if the Field, rh Mr Frank McKechin, Ann House has passed a motion that there should be an early parliamentary Fitzpatrick, Jim Meacher, rh Mr Michael general election. Flello, Robert Meale, Mr Alan (5) The polling day for an early parliamentary general election Flint, rh Caroline Mearns, Ian under subsection (4) above is to be the day appointed by Her Flynn, Paul Michael, rh Alun Majesty by proclamation on the recommendation of the Prime Fovargue, Yvonne Miller, Andrew Minister. Francis, Dr Hywel Mitchell, Austin (6) If a polling day is appointed under subsection (5) above, the Gilmore, Sheila Morden, Jessica reference in section 1(4) to the polling day for a parliamentary Glass, Pat Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) general election appointed under section 2(6) shall be construed Glindon, Mrs Mary Morris, Grahame M. as if referring to a day appointed under subsection (5) above.’.— Goggins, rh Paul (Easington) (Mr Cash.) Goodman, Helen Mudie, Mr George Brought up, and read the First time. Green, Kate Munn, Meg Greenwood, Lilian Murphy, rh Mr Jim Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Paul The House divided: Ayes 233, Noes 321. Gwynne, Andrew Murray, Ian Hain, rh Mr Peter Nandy, Lisa Division No. 173] [8.19 pm Hamilton, Mr David Nash, Pamela Hanson, rh Mr David O’Donnell, Fiona AYES Harman, rh Ms Harriet Onwurah, Chi Abbott, Ms Diane Bryant, Chris Harris, Mr Tom Owen, Albert Abrahams, Debbie Buck, Ms Karen Hendrick, Mark Pearce, Teresa Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Burden, Richard Hepburn, Mr Stephen Perkins, Toby Alexander, Heidi Burnham, rh Andy Hermon, Lady Phillipson, Bridget Ali, Rushanara Cairns, David Heyes, David Qureshi, Yasmin Anderson, Mr David Campbell, Mr Alan Hillier, Meg Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Austin, Ian Campbell, Mr Gregory Hilling, Julie Reed, Mr Jamie Bailey, Mr Adrian Campbell, Mr Ronnie Hodge, rh Margaret Rees-Mogg, Jacob Bain, Mr William Caton, Martin Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Rachel Balls, rh Ed Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hollobone, Mr Philip Reynolds, Emma Banks, Gordon Chope, Mr Christopher Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Jonathan Barron, rh Mr Kevin Clark, Katy Hopkins, Kelvin Riordan, Mrs Linda Bayley, Hugh Clarke, rh Mr Tom Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, John Beckett, rh Margaret Clwyd, rh Ann Hunt, Tristram Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Benn, rh Hilary Coaker, Vernon Irranca-Davies, Huw Rotheram, Steve Benton, Mr Joe Coffey, Ann Jackson, Glenda Roy, Mr Frank Berger, Luciana Connarty, Michael James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Lindsay Betts, Mr Clive Cooper, Rosie Jamieson, Cathy Ruane, Chris Blackman-Woods, Roberta Cooper, rh Yvette Jenkin, Mr Bernard Ruddock, rh Joan Blears, rh Hazel Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Sarwar, Anas Blenkinsop, Tom Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham Seabeck, Alison Blomfield, Paul Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Shannon, Jim Blunkett, rh Mr David Creasy, Dr Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Sheerman, Mr Barry Bone, Mr Peter Cryer, John Jones, Susan Elan Shepherd, Mr Richard Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Cunningham, Alex Joyce, Eric Sheridan, Jim Brennan, Kevin Cunningham, Mr Jim Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Shuker, Gavin Brown, rh Mr Gordon Cunningham, Tony Keeley, Barbara Simpson, David Brown, Lyn Curran, Margaret Kendall, Liz Skinner, Mr Dennis Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Dakin, Nic Khan, rh Sadiq Slaughter, Mr Andy Brown, Mr Russell Danczuk, Simon Lavery, Ian Smith, rh Mr Andrew 779 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 780

Smith, Angela Walley, Joan Gray, Mr James Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Smith, Nick Watson, Mr Tom Grayling, rh Chris Long, Naomi Smith, Owen Watts, Mr Dave Green, Damian Lopresti, Jack Soulsby, Sir Peter Whitehead, Dr Alan Greening, Justine Lord, Jonathan Spellar, rh Mr John Wicks, rh Malcolm Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Loughton, Tim Straw, rh Mr Jack Williamson, Chris Griffiths, Andrew Luff, Peter Stringer, Graham Wilson, Phil Gyimah, Mr Sam Lumley, Karen Tami, Mark Wilson, Sammy Halfon, Robert Macleod, Mary Thomas, Mr Gareth Winnick, Mr David Hames, Duncan MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Thornberry, Emily Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Hammond, rh Mr Philip Main, Mrs Anne Hammond, Stephen Maude, rh Mr Francis Timms, rh Stephen Woodcock, John Turner, Mr Andrew Hancock, Matthew May, rh Mrs Theresa Wright, David Turner, Karl Hancock, Mr Mike Maynard, Paul Wright, Mr Iain Twigg, Derek Hands, Greg McCartney, Jason Twigg, Stephen Tellers for the Ayes: Harper, Mr Mark McCartney, Karl Umunna, Mr Chuka Mr William Cash and Harrington, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Vaz, Valerie Mr David Nuttall Harris, Rebecca McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Hart, Simon McPartland, Stephen NOES Harvey, Nick McVey, Esther Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Menzies, Mark Adams, Nigel Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hayes, Mr John Mercer, Patrick Afriyie, Adam Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Aldous, Peter Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Miller, Maria Alexander, rh Danny Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Mills, Nigel Andrew, Stuart Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Milton, Anne Bacon, Mr Richard Crockart, Mike Henderson, Gordon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Bagshawe, Ms Louise Crouch, Tracey Hendry, Charles Moore, rh Michael Baker, Norman Davies, David T. C. Herbert, rh Nick Morgan, Nicky Baker, Steve (Monmouth) Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Baldry, Tony Davies, Glyn Hollingbery, George Morris, David Baldwin, Harriett Davis, rh Mr David Holloway, Mr Adam Morris, James Barclay, Stephen de Bois, Nick Hopkins, Kris Mosley, Stephen Baron, Mr John Dinenage, Caroline Horwood, Martin Mowat, David Barwell, Gavin Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hosie, Stewart Mulholland, Greg Bebb, Guto Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Howarth, Mr Gerald Mundell, rh David Beith, rh Sir Alan Dorries, Nadine Howell, John Munt, Tessa Bellingham, Mr Henry Doyle-Price, Jackie Hughes, rh Simon Murray, Sheryll Benyon, Richard Duddridge, James Huhne, rh Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Beresford, Sir Paul Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Neill, Robert Berry, Jake Dunne, Mr Philip Hunter, Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Bingham, Andrew Edwards, Jonathan Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Binley, Mr Brian Ellis, Michael Jackson, Mr Stewart Nokes, Caroline Birtwistle, Gordon Ellison, Jane James, Margot Norman, Jesse Blackman, Bob Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid Offord, Mr Matthew Blackwood, Nicola Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth Ollerenshaw, Eric Blunt, Mr Crispin Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph Opperman, Guy Boles, Nick Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew Ottaway, Richard Bottomley, Sir Peter Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr David Paice, rh Mr James Bradley, Karen Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus Parish, Neil Brady, Mr Graham Fallon, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel Patel, Priti Brake, Tom Farron, Tim Kelly, Chris Paterson, rh Mr Owen Bray, Angie Featherstone, Lynne Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Pawsey, Mark Brazier, Mr Julian Field, Mr Mark Kirby, Simon Penning, Mike Bridgen, Andrew Foster, rh Mr Don Knight, rh Mr Greg Penrose, John Brine, Mr Steve Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Perry, Claire Brokenshire, James Freeman, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor Phillips, Stephen Brooke, Annette Freer, Mike Lancaster, Mark Pickles, rh Mr Eric Bruce, Fiona Fullbrook, Lorraine Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Pincher, Christopher Bruce, rh Malcolm Fuller, Richard Latham, Pauline Poulter, Dr Daniel Buckland, Mr Robert Gale, Mr Roger Laws, rh Mr David Prisk, Mr Mark Burley, Mr Aidan Garnier, Mr Edward Leadsom, Andrea Pritchard, Mark Burns, Mr Simon Garnier, Mark Lee, Jessica Pugh, John Burrowes, Mr David Gauke, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip Raab, Mr Dominic Burstow, Paul George, Andrew Leech, Mr John Randall, rh Mr John Burt, Lorely Gibb, Mr Nick Lefroy, Jeremy Reckless, Mark Byles, Dan Gilbert, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte Reevell, Simon Cairns, Alun Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reid, Mr Alan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Carmichael, Neil Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Carswell, Mr Douglas Gove, rh Michael Lidington, rh Mr David Robertson, Mr Laurence Chishti, Rehman Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter Rogerson, Dan Clappison, Mr James Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen Rosindell, Andrew 781 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 782

Rudd, Amber Truss, Elizabeth I hope not to detain the House for too long. Amendment Ruffley, Mr David Tyrie, Mr Andrew 1 is a probing amendment, which the Political and Russell, Bob Uppal, Paul Constitutional Reform Committee agreed should be Rutley, David Vara, Mr Shailesh tabled to ensure that the Bill was technically sound. Sanders, Mr Adrian Vickers, Martin Clause 1(3) and (4) provide for the clock to be reset if an Sandys, Laura Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa early general election is called, and for the date of the Scott, Mr Lee Walker, Mr Charles Selous, Andrew Walker, Mr Robin next scheduled general election to be shifted to four to Shapps, rh Grant Wallace, Mr Ben five years after that early election. Those provisions, Sharma, Alok Walter, Mr Robert however, do not seem to apply to the next general Shelbrooke, Alec Ward, Mr David election, which is scheduled to take place on 7 May 2015. Simmonds, Mark Watkinson, Angela The Bill seems to require an election to be held on Simpson, Mr Keith Weatherley, Mike 7 May 2015 even if an early election has been held Skidmore, Chris Webb, Steve before that date, perhaps only a few months before— Smith, Miss Chloe Weir, Mr Mike although I suppose that depends on how it is interpreted. Smith, Henry Wharton, James The Government have made clear their policy that the Smith, Julian Wheeler, Heather clock should be reset each time there is an early general Smith, Sir Robert White, Chris election, and I do not suppose that they mean to make Soames, Nicholas Whiteford, Dr Eilidh an exception for 2015. Soubry, Anna Whittaker, Craig Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Whittingdale, Mr John I appreciate that the Government have already announced Spencer, Mr Mark Wiggin, Bill that the next general election will be held on 7 May 2015 Stephenson, Andrew Willetts, rh Mr David and not before. Can the Minister reassure us that, in the Stevenson, John Williams, Hywel unlikely event of an early general election during the Stewart, Iain Williams, Mr Mark current Parliament, the Bill as it stands would not Streeter, Mr Gary Williams, Roger require a further election to be held on 7 May 2015? If Stride, Mel Williams, Stephen he cannot give that reassurance, is he prepared to accept Stuart, Mr Graham Williamson, Gavin the amendment? That would make it crystal clear that if Stunell, Andrew Wilson, Mr Rob an early election took place before May 2015, the date Sturdy, Julian Wishart, Pete of the next election would be four to five years later, not Swales, Ian Wollaston, Dr Sarah in May 2015. Swayne, Mr Desmond Wright, Jeremy Swinson, Jo Wright, Simon Syms, Mr Robert Chris Bryant: It is a great delight to see the hon. Young, rh Sir George Teather, Sarah Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire Zahawi, Nadhim Thurso, John (Simon Hart). It is always odd when constituencies Timpson, Mr Edward Tellers for the Noes: contain bits of the west and bits of the south and bits of Tomlinson, Justin Norman Lamb and the north, all aligned with each other. May I just notify Tredinnick, David Stephen Crabb the hon. Gentleman that I shall be in his constituency on Friday evening? Now I have got that out of the way. Question accordingly negatived. He will be glad to know that I shall be addressing a Labour party meeting—although I am sure he will be welcome to come along if he wishes. Clause 1 As for the hon. Gentleman’s argument about amendment 1, I entirely agree with him that the drafting POLLING DAYS FOR PARLIAMENTARY GENERAL of the Bill is deficient in this regard. The Political and ELECTIONS Constitutional Reform Committee has done a remarkable piece of work in the short time it was given to do its Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South work, and I am glad it has been able to come up with Pembrokeshire) (Con): I beg to move amendment 1, this amendment. I had worried that there was not going page 1, line 5, at end insert to be a Committee member to move it, because neither of the two Committee members whose names are attached ‘save as provided for by subsection (2A) below. to it are present this evening, which is a shame. (2A) If a day before 7 May 2015 has been appointed under section 2(6) as the polling day for an early parliamentary general I also want to speak to amendments 10 and 11 in the election, the polling day for the subsequent parliamentary name of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, general election shall not be 7 May 2015, but shall instead be set the shadow Lord Chancellor my right hon. Friend the by reference to subsections (3) and (4) below.’. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), and myself. Amendment 10 would amend clause 1 by adding that Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): With this “no notice” should be it will be convenient to discuss the following: “taken of any early parliamentary general election as provided Amendment 10, page 1, line 8, at end insert for in section 2.” ‘, no notice being taken of any early parliamentary general That is basically to say that, notwithstanding that there election as provided for in section 2.’. might have been an early general election, the next Amendment 11, page 1, line 9, leave out subsection (4). general election will be on the date that had already been specified. Simon Hart: Amendment 1 was tabled by the hon. Ignoring for a moment the fact that one of our Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), the Chairman primary objections to the Bill is that it refers to five-year of the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee, Parliaments rather than four-year Parliaments, which who apologises for not being here in person. we would prefer, we none the less subscribe to the belief 783 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 784 that it is good for parliamentary democracy to have an Dr McCrea: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the expectation about when the next general election will Electoral Commission has written to the Deputy Prime be, and for Parliaments to be for fixed terms, especially Minister on this issue, and the right of the devolved because our broader electoral system is now analogous Administrations to lengthen the period by six months? to that of the United States of America in that we have It letter states: local elections on a four-year cycle, Assembly elections “the Commission believes that there remains a clear need for…research in Wales and Northern Ireland on a four-year cycle and to be carried out”— the parliamentary elections in Scotland on a four-year forthwith— cycle. We know the dates when they will take place in “to ensure there is a robust evidence base to inform decisions perpetuity into the future, so it makes sense to have the about the timing of elections in 2015.” same pattern and rhythm in elections to this House. That is why we have advanced this amendment, which, Chris Bryant: Yes, I am aware of that and I completely in essence, would mean that we would not start the agree with the thrust of what the hon. Gentleman is clock again. Consequently, we would know whether saying. The Government cannot just pull at individual elections were going to coincide with certain local elections strings of the constitutional settlement, because we will or elections for the devolved Administrations. That is a just end up unravelling the whole jumper: that is the law better model than the slightly haphazard manner in of unintended consequences, which we are in danger of which we may proceed if the Bill proceeds unamended having thrust upon us. in this respect. There is one other advantage. The Government have Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) written to the devolved Administrations about the fact (PC): I agree with the hon. Gentleman that four years that the next general election would coincide with their seems to be the normal cycle. Does he agree that if the elections in 2015 unless the Prime Minister brings our Government are intent on pushing ahead with a five-year general election forward by two months or delays it by fixed term, the natural thing to do would be to do the two months, and the Minister has written asking them same thing with the cycle for the National Assembly for whether they think it would be better to have a new Wales, and change its term to five years? power added giving them the right to delay their elections in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland by six months. Chris Bryant: I suppose it would, but I am not in I have spoken to various Members of the Welsh Assembly, favour of five-year terms. Political events change at a including the First Minister, and he is clear that it dramatic pace these days and a five-year term would would be wrong suddenly to change the date of the not meet that requirement. I suspect that such an Welsh Assembly elections because Parliament had decided arrangement would mean that Governments both here that its elections were to be at a certain point in 2015, and in the devolved Administrations would more regularly thereby either prolonging the next Welsh Assembly by be at the fag-end of their sense of having a mandate, six months or shortening the one thereafter by six and a four-year provision would be a much better. I am months. Moreover, if we are deciding that the best time sure that we shall return to this matter on Third Reading. of the year to have elections is the first Thursday in May, it would seem wrong suddenly to decide that I have no desire to delay the House, Madam Deputy everyone else should have to get out of the way and have Speaker, and I think that I have made my point. In their elections in November. Also, just shunting the essence, it is that we believe it would be better to have a devolved Administrations’ elections away by a month four-year fixed-term Parliament, because that would or two months is likely to harm those elections substantially, help us to avoid the elections for the devolved because I do not think that voters want to come out Administrations coinciding with the general election. very regularly, within a month or two of another general We need change only one other measure to make sure election. that that never happens; we need to provide that we do not start the clock again when there has been an early general election. The Government’s intention is to try Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance):It is not just to make us fall into the rhythm of fixed-term Parliaments that it is a burden on the electorate to ask them to come and not have lots of early general elections, and such a out and vote twice in a short period. One of our provision would give people an added incentive not to concerns about the local government and Assembly seek an early general election because they would know elections that will be taking place in Northern Ireland—as that they would then have only a short Parliament well as the referendum—is that the campaigns will before the next general election, which would fall on the become blurred and people will focus less on some of previously arranged date. Without any further do, I them and more on others. shall conclude and I look forward to hearing from the Minister. Chris Bryant: I think that is absolutely right, and I fear that the likely outcome of that is that most people Mr Harper: The amendments relate to the date of the will end up voting purely and simply according to party, election and it is worth touching on the points that a rather than according to the candidate, which would be number of hon. Members have made about the coincidence a damaging direction of travel for British democracy. of the proposed date of 7 May 2015 with the date of the We would prefer deliberately to avoid a coincidence of devolved elections. It is worth saying, as we said in the Scottish Parliament elections with the general election, Committee, that it is entirely possible and, indeed, likely and we think that the best way of doing so is by having that, regardless of whether or not this Bill was introduced, a four-year fixed-term for this Parliament and by not the UK general election could have been held on the restarting the clock. We would thus not have constant same day as those devolved elections if this Parliament uncertainty about the year of the general election. had run for five years. In some sense, the Bill provides 785 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 786

[Mr Harper] make the mechanics run—and; secondly, making combination easier. That is not just related to the devolved an opportunity, because it has highlighted and crystallised elections and those for the Westminster Parliament. that fact at an early stage, when we have the chance to The fact is that whether or not one agrees with the debate the consequences and do something about it. Government’s proposals, we are proposing elected police As the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) commissioners and some elected mayors, so there will said, and as we discussed in Committee, I wrote to all be more elections and more of them will take place on the party leaders in the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish the same day. Therefore, we need to make that easier. Parliament proposing to give their Assembly or Parliament Another issue that came up in the debate, which is the power to extend its term by up to six months. That serious and valid, concerns the extent to which media was to go alongside the existing power to shorten the coverage and so on means that two different conversations term by six months to provide a window of a year in can be going on at the same time for different elections. which it could vary the date of the election to avoid that That will obviously engage the political parties, broadcasters once-in-20-year coincidence with the Westminster election. and people more widely. The Electoral Commission’s suggestion is very good, Dr McCrea: The Electoral Commission’s letter said but it has not taken place to date. The Government that there was a think there is some support for it, but given where we “need for a comprehensive research study on the implications of are in the timetable and given that my right hon. Friend combining elections” the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland wanted to and that the Commission was “not aware” that that consider the experience of the combined elections in work had taken place up to the moment of writing. Has Northern Ireland this year, it might be a good idea to that research commenced? consider what happens with the referendum and elections in May—in only a few months’ time—and use that experience to kick off some project along the lines 8.45 pm suggested by the hon. Member for South Antrim Mr Harper: I heard very clearly what the hon. Gentleman (Dr McCrea) once the Government have considered the said in his intervention on the hon. Member for Rhondda, suggestions from the party leaders. That might give us a and I was going to refer to that point anyway. Let me possible route forward. finish this part of my speech and I shall come on to that. Chris Bryant: The Minister referred to elected police commissioners and more directly elected mayors. Will I wrote to the party leaders. They wrote back and I he confirm that they will all also be on four-year terms, think it is fair to say that they were underwhelmed by rather than five-year terms? If he wanted to provide a the proposal to give the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish little more tidiness—I can see him smiling, because he Parliament the opportunity to extend their term by knows how this sentence will end—he could change this six months to provide that one-year window. For that five-year fixed-term Parliament to a four-year Parliament, reason, the Government did not table an amendment even if he only did it for after 2015. on Report, as we had suggested that we might if the responses were more positive. The party leaders and Mr Harper: Not representing a valleys constituency, I Presiding Officers raised some other points, some of do not have the same urge for tidiness as the hon. which the hon. Member for Rhondda has raised today, Gentleman. I am happy with our relatively untidy about alternatives. We are considering them and will constitutional settlement. I have no problem with that write back to the party leaders as well as keeping the at all. Opposition and the House informed. For the benefit of Members, I should say that copies of the letters that I Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The Minister has have written have been placed in the Library of the said that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland House today. will monitor what happens with the elections that will take place this year. After he has done that, will there be Chris Bryant: I am grateful for the tone in which the close co-operation and consultation with the parties Minister is responding to this part of the debate. For his and the Electoral Commission to find the correct way information, his office sent me a letter by e-mail today, of proceeding and learning from anything that goes apparently responding to a letter I sent him on 21 December. wrong? Is that the suggestion? It was in fact a letter about something completely different, so if he could arrange for the actual letter to Mr Harper: Yes, I have discussed this with my right be sent to me, I would be grateful. hon. Friend and he intends, as we have discussed in Committee and announced to the House, to consider Mr Harper: I replied to a letter that the hon. Gentleman the experience from this year. We want to work with all sent to me. He might find—I can absolutely get him a the parties in Northern Ireland, just as I have written to copy—that the letter about the letter to the party leaders all the party leaders in the Welsh Assembly and the went to the shadow Secretary of State’s office today. I Scottish Parliament, to reach some agreement on what can make sure that the hon. Gentleman gets a copy works well, what does not work and what needs to directly and, as I said, I placed copies of those letters in change. That will be very much on a cross-party basis. the Library of the House. The Electoral Commission’s letter made some sensible Jonathan Edwards: I understand that the Deputy points about considering all the issues raised by First Minister in Wales would prefer a five-year cycle combination. It seems to me that there are two kinds of for the National Assembly for Wales. Is that on the table issues: first, the practical delivery of elections—how we for the Government? 787 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 788

Mr Harper: I will not start picking bits out of individual there was an early general election or not. There has letters, but, given our debates in the House about preferences been quite a lot of speculation among academics and for four or five years, it is interesting that there have others on whether that would act as a disincentive for a been suggestions from party leaders about moving the Government or strong Opposition to engineer an early devolved Assemblies on to a five-year cycle. Given what general election because a new Government would get a has been said here and that the devolved Assemblies term of perhaps only a few months. We did think about and Parliament were set up after considerable debate that, and we debated it in Committee. The flip side to and have been on a settled model for some time, that that is that there is an election in which a Government would be a big jump and quite a change to the constitutional get elected, perhaps with a significant majority, quickly settlement. followed by another election. That explains the Government’s choice of wording. Naomi Long: The Minister has talked about considering There is a technical problem with the amendments. the context of the forthcoming Northern Ireland Assembly An early election could take place just before the scheduled elections coinciding with the referendum campaign, but election but the scheduled election would still be held. a better comparison would be the impact on the local The rules for the devolved assemblies provide a window, government election campaign, in which the same range so that if the early election takes place very close to the of parties will fight on very different issues. We need to scheduled election, the scheduled election does not take consider this issue in that important context because place. If the early election is more than six months the referendum campaign will not be party political in before, the scheduled election still takes place. As the that sense and so is not directly comparable to running amendments are drafted, there could be an election party political campaigns at the same time. The issue only weeks before the scheduled election, and the scheduled with running a general election campaign alongside an election would still have to be held. That would not Assembly election campaign in Northern Ireland is that make a great deal of sense. media coverage will focus on the general election campaign in a UK context, looking at parties that do not garner Chris Bryant: The Minister is right; that would be the votes in the Northern Ireland context. eventuality. However, I think that would fly in the face of what in practice would happen politically, because Mr Harper: The hon. Lady makes a good point. some six to nine months before a general election people When the Deputy Prime Minister and I introduced the would choose not to bother to militate for an early Bill, we said that a UK general election coinciding with general election—they would just accept that the next a devolved legislature election would be qualitatively general election was coming. I understood that that was different from a referendum campaign coinciding with what the Minister was trying to achieve—fixed-term a devolved legislature election for the very reason that Parliaments. the hon. Lady says—there would be a narrative and a debate going on and there would be questions about whether the media, newspapers and broadcasters would Mr Harper: The hon. Gentleman was hypothetically fairly cover both parts of the debate and whether the pessimistic earlier. Now he takes the opposite approach: public could therefore take properly informed decisions he is being hypothetically optimistic. The Government’s in both elections. We need to consider that issue with all view was that we could have that early general election the parties and broadcasters and see whether there are and the Government could be returned with a large ways around it. majority, and we think the public would expect that Government to govern. Let me address amendment 1, which my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Interestingly, the Constitution Committee in the other Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) moved on behalf of the place agreed with the Government’s approach. Its report Select Committee on Political and Constitutional Reform. concludes that a newly elected Government should have The intention of the amendment is to clarify that, in the a full term of office, and that the Government would event of an early general election—before 7 May—under present its programme to Parliament through the Queen’s subsection (1) or (2) of clause 2, the general election Speech, which, of course, is traditionally considered to specified in clause 1(2) would not take place, but the Bill be a test of confidence. We think that in that situation already makes it clear that the general election of 7 May the Government should have the right to carry out their 2015 would take place only if no intervening early programme for the full five years, and it would make general elections under the procedures in clause 2 had little sense to ask the voters to go back to the polls when occurred. Clause 1 sets the date for the first scheduled they had sent out a clear message. general election, “subject to” clause 2—those words I accept that that is a debatable point—we had a appear in the first subsection of the Bill’s first clause. If significant debate in Committee—but let us look at it there were an early general election, it would replace the from the public’s end of the telescope rather than our election of 7 May. The Select Committee has been very own. If we were to have an early general election, helpful in scrutinising the Bill and its amendments have because the Government had lost a confidence vote or brought about some good debates. Amendment 1 is because there had been a general sense that we should good in that it has enabled this debate, but it is not have an early general election, it would seem a little necessary because the Bill is already clear. ridiculous if the public had made a clear choice, sent a Amendments 10 and 11, which the hon. Member for Government into office with a significant majority, and Rhondda spoke to, would mean that the parliamentary then a few months later were back doing it all over term following an early general election would last only again. for the remainder of the previously scheduled term. To I think that, on balance, the Government’s decision use a phrase that the Committee used in its report, it and the current drafting of the Bill make sense. I urge would keep the clock ticking on the five years whether my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and 789 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 790

[Mr Harper] Flynn, Paul Meale, Mr Alan Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian South Pembrokeshire, on behalf of the Select Committee, Francis, Dr Hywel Michael, rh Alun to withdraw his amendment 1 and I urge the hon. Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Member for Rhondda, just for once, to think about Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin whether he really wants to press amendments 10 and Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) 11 and potentially force the British people to undergo Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. election after election in close succession—something Goodman, Helen (Easington) which neither he nor I would want to achieve. Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Simon Hart: I am much encouraged by the Minister’s Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim comments and I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul amendment. Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Hanson, rh Mr David Nandy, Lisa Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nash, Pamela Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona Clause 3 Hendrick, Mark Onwurah, Chi Hepburn, Mr Stephen Owen, Albert DISSOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT Hermon, Lady Pearce, Teresa Heyes, David Perkins, Toby Amendment proposed: 8, page 2, line 29, leave out Hillier, Meg Phillipson, Bridget ‘17th’ and insert ‘25th’.—(Chris Bryant.) Hilling, Julie Qureshi, Yasmin Question put, That the amendment be made. Hodge, rh Margaret Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Reeves, Rachel The House divided: Ayes 234, Noes 314. Hood, Mr Jim Reynolds, Emma Division No. 174] [8.59 pm Hopkins, Kelvin Reynolds, Jonathan Hosie, Stewart Riordan, Mrs Linda AYES Howarth, rh Mr George Robertson, Angus Hunt, Tristram Robertson, John Abbott, Ms Diane Coffey, Ann Irranca-Davies, Huw Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Abrahams, Debbie Connarty, Michael Jackson, Glenda Rotheram, Steve Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Cooper, Rosie James, Mrs Siân C. Roy, Mr Frank Alexander, Heidi Cooper, rh Yvette Jamieson, Cathy Roy, Lindsay Ali, Rushanara Corbyn, Jeremy Johnson, Diana Ruane, Chris Anderson, Mr David Crausby, Mr David Jones, Graham Ruddock, rh Joan Austin, Ian Creagh, Mary Jones, Helen Sarwar, Anas Bailey, Mr Adrian Creasy, Dr Stella Jones, Mr Kevan Seabeck, Alison Bain, Mr William Cruddas, Jon Jones, Susan Elan Shannon, Jim Balls, rh Ed Cryer, John Joyce, Eric Sheerman, Mr Barry Banks, Gordon Cunningham, Alex Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Sheridan, Jim Barron, rh Mr Kevin Cunningham, Mr Jim Keeley, Barbara Shuker, Gavin Bayley, Hugh Cunningham, Tony Kendall, Liz Simpson, David Beckett, rh Margaret Curran, Margaret Khan, rh Sadiq Skinner, Mr Dennis Benn, rh Hilary Dakin, Nic Lavery, Ian Slaughter, Mr Andy Benton, Mr Joe Danczuk, Simon Lazarowicz, Mark Smith, rh Mr Andrew Berger, Luciana David, Mr Wayne Leslie, Chris Smith, Nick Betts, Mr Clive Davidson, Mr Ian Lewis, Mr Ivan Smith, Owen Blackman-Woods, Roberta Davies, Geraint Lloyd, Tony Soulsby, Sir Peter Blears, rh Hazel De Piero, Gloria Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Spellar, rh Mr John Blenkinsop, Tom Denham, rh Mr John Long, Naomi Straw, rh Mr Jack Blomfield, Paul Dobbin, Jim Love, Mr Andrew Stringer, Graham Blunkett, rh Mr David Dobson, rh Frank Lucas, Caroline Tami, Mark Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Docherty, Thomas Lucas, Ian Thomas, Mr Gareth Brennan, Kevin Dodds, rh Mr Nigel MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Thornberry, Emily Brown, Lyn Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Mactaggart, Fiona Timms, rh Stephen Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Doran, Mr Frank Mahmood, Shabana Turner, Karl Brown, Mr Russell Dowd, Jim Mann, John Twigg, Derek Bryant, Chris Doyle, Gemma Marsden, Mr Gordon Twigg, Stephen Buck, Ms Karen Dromey, Jack McCabe, Steve Umunna, Mr Chuka Burden, Richard Dugher, Michael McCann, Mr Michael Vaz, Valerie Burnham, rh Andy Durkan, Mark McCarthy, Kerry Walley, Joan Byrne, rh Mr Liam Eagle, Ms Angela Cairns, David Edwards, Jonathan McClymont, Gregg Watts, Mr Dave Campbell, Mr Alan Efford, Clive McCrea, Dr William Weir, Mr Mike Campbell, Mr Gregory Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Whiteford, Dr Eilidh Campbell, Mr Ronnie Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Whitehead, Dr Alan Caton, Martin Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Wicks, rh Malcolm Chapman, Mrs Jenny Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Williams, Hywel Clark, Katy Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Williamson, Chris Clarke, rh Mr Tom Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Wilson, Phil Clwyd, rh Ann Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Wilson, Sammy Coaker, Vernon Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Winnick, Mr David 791 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 792

Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wright, Mr Iain Holloway, Mr Adam Mulholland, Greg Wishart, Pete Tellers for the Ayes: Hopkins, Kris Mundell, rh David Woodcock, John Angela Smith and Horwood, Martin Munt, Tessa Wright, David Mr David Hamilton Howarth, Mr Gerald Murray, Sheryll Howell, John Murrison, Dr Andrew Hughes, rh Simon Neill, Robert NOES Huhne, rh Chris Newmark, Mr Brooks Adams, Nigel Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Newton, Sarah Afriyie, Adam Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Hunter, Mark Nokes, Caroline Aldous, Peter Doyle-Price, Jackie Huppert, Dr Julian Norman, Jesse Alexander, rh Danny Duncan, rh Mr Alan Jackson, Mr Stewart Nuttall, Mr David Andrew, Stuart Dunne, Mr Philip James, Margot Offord, Mr Matthew Bacon, Mr Richard Ellis, Michael Javid, Sajid Ollerenshaw, Eric Bagshawe, Ms Louise Ellison, Jane Johnson, Gareth Opperman, Guy Baker, Norman Elphicke, Charlie Johnson, Joseph Ottaway, Richard Baker, Steve Eustice, George Jones, Andrew Paice, rh Mr James Baldry, Tony Evans, Graham Jones, Mr David Parish, Neil Baldwin, Harriett Evans, Jonathan Jones, Mr Marcus Patel, Priti Barclay, Stephen Evennett, Mr David Kawczynski, Daniel Paterson, rh Mr Owen Baron, Mr John Fabricant, Michael Kelly, Chris Pawsey, Mark Barwell, Gavin Fallon, Michael Kennedy, rh Mr Charles Penning, Mike Bebb, Guto Farron, Tim Kirby, Simon Penrose, John Beith, rh Sir Alan Featherstone, Lynne Knight, rh Mr Greg Percy, Andrew Bellingham, Mr Henry Field, Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi Perry, Claire Benyon, Richard Foster, rh Mr Don Laing, Mrs Eleanor Phillips, Stephen Beresford, Sir Paul Francois, rh Mr Mark Lamb, Norman Pickles, rh Mr Eric Berry, Jake Freeman, George Lancaster, Mark Pincher, Christopher Bingham, Andrew Freer, Mike Lansley, rh Mr Andrew Poulter, Dr Daniel Birtwistle, Gordon Fullbrook, Lorraine Latham, Pauline Prisk, Mr Mark Blackman, Bob Fuller, Richard Laws, rh Mr David Pritchard, Mark Blackwood, Nicola Gale, Mr Roger Leadsom, Andrea Pugh, John Blunt, Mr Crispin Garnier, Mr Edward Lee, Jessica Raab, Mr Dominic Boles, Nick Garnier, Mark Lee, Dr Phillip Randall, rh Mr John Bone, Mr Peter Gauke, Mr David Leech, Mr John Reckless, Mark Bottomley, Sir Peter George, Andrew Lefroy, Jeremy Redwood, rh Mr John Bradley, Karen Gibb, Mr Nick Leslie, Charlotte Rees-Mogg, Jacob Brady, Mr Graham Gilbert, Stephen Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Reevell, Simon Brake, Tom Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Lewis, Brandon Reid, Mr Alan Bray, Angie Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Brazier, Mr Julian Graham, Richard Lidington, rh Mr David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew Bridgen, Andrew Grant, Mrs Helen Lilley, rh Mr Peter Robertson, Mr Laurence Brine, Mr Steve Gray, Mr James Lloyd, Stephen Rogerson, Dan Brokenshire, James Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Rosindell, Andrew Brooke, Annette Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan Rudd, Amber Bruce, Fiona Greening, Justine Loughton, Tim Russell, Bob Bruce, rh Malcolm Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Luff, Peter Rutley, David Buckland, Mr Robert Griffiths, Andrew Lumley, Karen Sanders, Mr Adrian Burley, Mr Aidan Gyimah, Mr Sam Macleod, Mary Sandys, Laura Burns, Mr Simon Halfon, Robert Main, Mrs Anne Scott, Mr Lee Burrowes, Mr David Hames, Duncan Maude, rh Mr Francis Selous, Andrew Burstow, Paul Hammond, rh Mr Philip May, rh Mrs Theresa Shapps, rh Grant Burt, Lorely Hammond, Stephen Maynard, Paul Sharma, Alok Byles, Dan Hancock, Matthew McCartney, Jason Shelbrooke, Alec Cairns, Alun Hancock, Mr Mike McCartney, Karl Simmonds, Mark Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hands, Greg McIntosh, Miss Anne Simpson, Mr Keith Carmichael, Neil Harper, Mr Mark McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Skidmore, Chris Carswell, Mr Douglas Harrington, Richard McPartland, Stephen Smith, Miss Chloe Chishti, Rehman Harris, Rebecca McVey, Esther Smith, Henry Clappison, Mr James Hart, Simon Menzies, Mark Smith, Julian Clegg, rh Mr , Nick Mercer, Patrick Smith, Sir Robert Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Metcalfe, Stephen Soames, Nicholas Coffey, Dr Thérèse Hayes, Mr John Miller, Maria Soubry, Anna Collins, Damian Heald, Mr Oliver Mills, Nigel Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Colvile, Oliver Heath, Mr David Milton, Anne Spencer, Mr Mark Crockart, Mike Heaton-Harris, Chris Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Stephenson, Andrew Crouch, Tracey Hemming, John Moore, rh Michael Stevenson, John Davies, David T. C. Henderson, Gordon Morgan, Nicky Stewart, Iain (Monmouth) Hendry, Charles Morris, Anne Marie Stewart, Rory Davies, Glyn Herbert, rh Nick Morris, David Streeter, Mr Gary Davis, rh Mr David Hinds, Damian Morris, James Stride, Mel de Bois, Nick Hollingbery, George Mosley, Stephen Stuart, Mr Graham Dinenage, Caroline Hollobone, Mr Philip Mowat, David Stunell, Andrew 793 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 794

Sturdy, Julian Watkinson, Angela proposing a new power for the House to vote for an Swales, Ian Weatherley, Mike early dissolution, as well as, for the first time, giving Swayne, Mr Desmond Webb, Steve legal effect to the existing procedures for a vote of no Swinson, Jo Wharton, James confidence. I ask Members to note that the Constitution Syms, Mr Robert Wheeler, Heather Committee in the other place has endorsed those two Teather, Sarah White, Chris mechanisms for triggering an early election. Thurso, John Whittaker, Craig Timpson, Mr Edward Wiggin, Bill The Government do not accept the concern that the Tomlinson, Justin Willetts, rh Mr David new right to dissolve Parliament will undermine this Tredinnick, David Williams, Mr Mark House’s exclusive cognisance. Such an important Truss, Elizabeth Williams, Roger constitutional innovation absolutely should be laid down Turner, Mr Andrew Williams, Stephen in statute, but we are confident that the courts will Tyrie, Mr Andrew Williamson, Gavin continue to regard matters certified by the Speaker as Uppal, Paul Wilson, Mr Rob relating to proceedings in Parliament, which are, in Vara, Mr Shailesh Wollaston, Dr Sarah turn, protected by the Bill of Rights. I was delighted Vickers, Martin Wright, Jeremy that the Constitution Committee—a Committee that Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Wright, Simon includes distinguished parliamentarians and lawyers— Walker, Mr Charles Young, rh Sir George Zahawi, Nadhim agreed with the Government’s assessment of the Bill’s Walker, Mr Robin interaction with parliamentary privilege. Wallace, Mr Ben Tellers for the Noes: Walter, Mr Robert Stephen Crabb and On the length of Parliaments, we have looked into the Ward, Mr David James Duddridge suggestion that four years is preferable to five. It is true that this is not an exact science. It is a question of judgment, but, all the arguments considered, we remain Question accordingly negatived. of the strong view that five years, the current maximum Third Reading and more recently the norm, will encourage the stability and long-term perspective that British politics too often lacks. 9.11 pm The Deputy Prime Minister (Mr Nick Clegg): I beg to Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab): Can the Deputy Prime move, That the Bill be now read the Third time. Minister give us one example in which he or another I am grateful to Members who have taken part in leading member of the Liberal Democrats before May debates on the Bill, in particular the hon. Member for last year was in favour of a five-year fixed-term Parliament? Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who sadly is not in his The Deputy Prime Minister: We were in favour of place, and members of the Political and Constitutional fixed-term Parliaments above and beyond all else, and Reform Committee, who have been forensic in their always accepted that the issue of whether it was four scrutiny. years or five years was a matter of judgment, as I said. The Bill’s reforms are an essential part of the Five years, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, is the Government’s drive to modernise Parliament. Currently, maximum term available to us already, and of the last a Prime Minister can, effectively, call an election on a five Parliaments three stretched to five years, including whim—a situation that my colleague and friend, the the last Parliament under a Labour Government. late Lord Holme of Cheltenham, once described as a race in which the Prime Minister is allowed to approach Austin Mitchell: But the judgment of the Liberal the track with his or her running shoes in one hand and party was that four years was the appropriate length of the starting pistol in the other. Something as important a Parliament. That is what was in the Liberals’ manifesto as the timing of a general election must not be determined and what they put up to the Labour side in the coalition by the whims of Prime Ministers and the self-interest of negotiations. They asked for four years and election by political parties. I believe that all parties agree on that. single transferable vote. Why suddenly switch to five? The Bill proposes the introduction of fixed-term Parliaments, bringing a new stability to our political The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said, the principle of system and, crucially, ensuring that when Parliament a fixed-term Parliament was by far the most important does dissolve early, that is a matter for this House. thing. Whether that is four or five years—some people Debate on the Bill has been vigorous. That is why we argue for five, some argue for four—might divide opinion allowed extra time in Committee. While we may not see and might create synthetic objections from those on the eye to eye with colleagues on the Opposition Benches Labour Benches, but it is none the less secondary to the on every detail, throughout the debates there was broad principle of giving the House greater power over the agreement on what it seeks to achieve. Executive. That is what the Bill establishes. Personally, I would not fetishise about 12 months one way or another Let me turn briefly to some of the issues that have in a term of four or five years. We have decided in the attracted most attention. First, on early dissolution, the coalition agreement and as a Government—[Interruption.] Bill provides that Parliament will be dissolved early It is a decision from the Government. I know that the only if at least two thirds of MPs vote for dissolution or hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) finds it if a Government are unable to secure the confidence of deeply uncomfortable not to be in government. He is the House of Commons within 14 days of a no-confidence not. We are, and we have decided five years. vote—passed on a simple majority, exactly as is provided for right now. Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): One of the Those arrangements are complementary. They are consequences of the decision to have a five-year term in workable. Most importantly, they strengthen the power the first instance will be the coincidence of the date of of Parliament to hold Government to account. We are the Scottish Parliament, Welsh Assembly and Northern 795 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 796

Ireland Assembly elections in 2015. In the debate in the point about the coincidence of elections, Northern Committee, we were advised by the Parliamentary Secretary, Ireland Office Ministers are conducting separate discussions Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Forest of Dean with the parties in Northern Ireland, where the issues (Mr Harper) that there would be discussions with the are slightly different. It would be inappropriate for me devolved Administrations on that. Can the Deputy to prejudge the outcome of those ongoing discussions. Prime Minister report to us now on the outcome of We will of course endeavour to keep colleagues on the those discussions? Opposition Benches informed.

The Deputy Prime Minister: I am not sure whether Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con): My right the hon. Lady was present for my hon. Friend the hon. Friend is entirely right that the judgment about Minister’s update to the House on Report, when he gave how long a Parliament should last is not an exact a full account of the ongoing discussions with the science. During the debates in Committee, I opted for devolved Administrations and the Presiding Officers of four years because I felt that that was more appropriate. the devolved Assemblies. I understand that people have It would avoid the clashes and mean that we would different views on the coincidence of the two elections engage regularly with our electorate, which we should in 2015, but I hope the hon. Lady and everyone else will all be doing. It would be important in helping to keep us recognise that the Bill does not create the possibility of all in touch with our constituents. Would he say more a clash of elections. Indeed, a clash in 2015 could easily on the thinking behind the decision to have five years have occurred under the existing arrangements if this rather than four? Parliament had continued until 2015. What the Bill does is alert us well ahead of time that The Deputy Prime Minister: As I said before, that is there is going to be such a clash. It allows us to the existing maximum and has been for a very long anticipate and plan for a date that coincides in that way. time. It has recently become the norm, as five of the As it happens, such clashes will occur only every 20 years. past nine Parliaments stretched to five years, including The discussions that we are entering now with the the previous Parliament. The hon. Gentleman might devolved Assemblies, the Presiding Officers and the disagree, but I hope that he will at least accept the leaders of the devolved Executives are precisely to take legitimacy of the argument that a four-year Parliament, advantage of the fact that we have advance warning of an politics being what it is, would naturally incline parties overlap or a clash, which otherwise we would not have had. in power to look towards the next election well ahead of Naomi Long: Although I accept the argument that that four-year deadline and that government would be parliamentary and Assembly elections could have coincided arrested and suspended as the party in power positioned anyway, as might have happened in 2015, is this not a itself months or sometimes a year or so before an missed opportunity to take a constructive decision on impending general election, which would curtail whether such a coinciding is a good or bad thing so that considerably the time in which Governments can do we could then routinely avoid it or make it happen? difficult and brave things. Five years, however, is clearly Instead, it is again being left somewhat to chance. a period during which Governments can take difficult and bold decisions that from time to time, as we very The Deputy Prime Minister: I agree that in principle a well know now, are necessary. clash of elections to the devolved Assemblies and to the House of Commons should be avoided. As I have said Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con): My right before in debates, there is a world of difference between hon. Friend was asked about clause 1(5) and the length the potential for confusion among voters being asked to of time between general elections, but my reading of vote for two different Parliaments that will in turn that provision is that it does not extend the life of a create two different Executives or Governments—a wholly Parliament. Parliament will still expire after five years, more serious issue—and the coincidence of such elections but the general election has to come within two months with a referendum on a specific yes or no issue, as will after that if it is extended, which is a shorter period than be the case with the AV referendum and the elections the current maximum. this May. We have always accepted the fundamental assertion that we need to find a way around that. We Chris Bryant: That is not correct. have had ongoing discussions and will continue to do so with an open mind. We made the suggestion that the The Deputy Prime Minister: I defer to my hon. Friend devolved Assemblies should have the power to shift the the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) date of their elections by six months either before or on the theology of those things. The hon. Member for after the general election. That has not been greeted Rhondda says that he is wrong, but my understanding with universal approbation, but it is none the less a is that the Bill is fairy clear on that point, even if it a sincere attempt on our part to try to find a way forward. little opaque to me on that very specific point. As my hon. Friend knows, the provisions purely address highly Chris Bryant: I am grateful to the Deputy Prime exceptional circumstances that arise for one reason or Minister, who is being generous in giving way. Can he another, such as unforeseen emergency circumstances. confirm that the provision set out in clause 1(5) will Foot and mouth is an obvious recent example of where extend the maximum length of a Parliament beyond it is self-evident that an election simply could not be five years and that therefore it would be the longest conducted either practically or politically. That is what fixed-term Parliament in the world, other than Rwanda? was we had in mind when we drafted the Bill in those There is no fixed-term Parliament in the world of five years. terms. The Deputy Prime Minister: The hon. Gentleman has In conclusion, the Government believe that fixed-term read the provisions of the Bill correctly, and I think that Parliaments represent a simple but absolutely fundamental his point was confirmed by the Minister on Report. On change: strengthening Parliament, providing stability 797 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 798

[The Deputy Prime Minister] —[HON.MEMBERS: “Give way!”] I shall not give way to the hon. Gentleman. He has been in charge of timetabling and moving us towards the new politics that we have all the Bill, and if he had wanted to speak, he should have promised the people of Britain. I commend the Bill to allowed more time for debate. the House. Once again, we will rely on the other place to inject a sense of fairness— 9.25 pm Sir Peter Bottomley: On a point of order, Madam Sadiq Khan: Things are desperate when the Whips Deputy Speaker. If the right hon. Gentleman had intended have to arrange things to get most of the Liberal to take up the first two minutes of his speech himself, parliamentary party into the Chamber, but it is good to one might have understood his response. If he intends see two rows of Liberal MPs. The Deputy Prime Minister to let others come in, however, why does he not let the knows more about mutinies than I do, but I suspect that Minister have a word? the situation tonight is similar to that of a football club chairman who says to his manager, “Your job is safe.” I Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo): The hon. look forward to the right hon. Gentleman’s continued Gentleman is very experienced and knows that that is contribution to debates about constitutional reform. not a point of order. It is entirely up to Mr Khan as to whom he decides to give way to. While I am on my feet, The Bill before us allows the Government to set in may I remind Members that there is supposed to be stone the date of the next general election as Thursday 7 only one Member on their feet at any one time in the May 2015. It also gives them time to foist a series of Chamber? constitutional changes on to the country. They will reduce the size of the House of Commons by 50 MPs, Sadiq Khan: I welcome the hon. Gentleman to the redraw constituency boundaries and silence the voices debate and congratulate him on his recent honour. of local residents through the removal of public inquiries. I want to be clear that the criticism of the speed with This Bill allows them the time to do that, and as the which the legislation is being pushed through comes not hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), from us alone. The Political and Constitutional Reform who is not in his place, said on Second Reading, it Committee, the Clerk of the House of Commons, Professor smacks of Robert Hazell of the constitution unit and other academic “gerrymandering the constitution in favour of a particular experts, and the House of Lords Constitution Committee coalition”.—[Official Report, 13 September 2010; Vol. 515, c. 624.] have all criticised not only the Bill, but the way in which it is being rushed through without consideration for the Ms Louise Bagshawe (Corby) (Con): Does the right consequences on our constitution, both intended and hon. Gentleman intend to suggest that, by the Prime unintended. Minister giving up power and by making the votes of May I deal with an important point at the outset? It people in Corby equal to the votes of people in the has been said that the Bill needs to go through unchanged Rhondda, we are gerrymandering the Bill? That is an because it is part of the coalition agreement. The new amazing use of language. politics means that we can forget about what people voted for, about manifestos and about the promises that Sadiq Khan: That Bill is being discussed in the other were made before the election. The deal that was done place. It starts again at 3.30 tomorrow. means that the agreement that was reached after the The hon. Lady should be interested in my next point, election cannot be touched. However, the Bill no longer however, because the Bill before us also ties the hands of provides for a general election if 55% of hon. Members the Conservative party to the Liberal Democrats. With believe that one is needed, as was stated in the coalition this Bill, their respective fates and identities become agreement. The Deputy Prime Minister made an inseparable. Make no mistake: the Bill is not for the embarrassing U-turn on that issue, proving that the good of the country; it is for the good of the Ministers coalition agreement has no constitutional significance on the Treasury Bench. What compounds that outrageous at all. I hope that the other place will pay heed to that. piece of attempted constitutional fixing is the fact they Our major concern from the beginning has been that are trying to ram it through at breakneck speed. That five years is simply too long for a fixed-term Parliament. urgency is because Back Benchers from both coalition We have argued throughout the scrutiny process for parties are having second thoughts about the issue, so four-year terms. That not only compares well with party managers need to get them super-glued together other Parliaments, but provides a better fit with our quickly, with no way out. current constitutional arrangements. Moreover, we have Throughout the Bill’s passage, we have raised a number heard the concerns of our colleagues in Wales, Scotland of concerns about its content and its scrutiny. I have no and Northern Ireland about the short-term consequences problem with the Conservative party being converts to of fixing Parliaments at five years. The potential clash fixed-term Parliaments. with the Assembly elections in Wales and Northern Ireland and the parliamentary election in Scotland on Mr Heath: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? 7 May 2015 shows a blatant disregard for those parts of the Union. Sadiq Khan: No, I won’t. Not to you. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The right The Liberal Democrats’ policy was for four-year hon. Gentleman is keen to ascribe motives that were not fixed-term Parliaments, but unfortunately the coalition present in the decision to make it five years. Will he give has hijacked a sensible and progressive idea, amended it some indication of the thinking of the previous Prime for its own means and tried to rush through legislation Minister in deciding that the Parliament that has just preventing a proper, wide-ranging debate on an important ended should last five years? 799 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 800

Sadiq Khan: The right hon. Gentleman will accept Sadiq Khan: The problem is that an amendment was that, like his party, we were in favour of fixed-term moved, hon. Members took part in the debate, and then Parliaments and that, like his party, we thought four the Minister introduced the other option, yet gave us no years was the appropriate length of time. In between the chance to respond, because of the guillotining by those ballot boxes closing and Liberal Democrats reaching on the Government Front Bench. their ministerial cars, his party changed the figure to five years for the simple reason that it meant that it Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab): Surely the could gerrymander before the next general election. point is that the Minister knew that information at the start of the debate, but he chose not to inform the Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD): Will the right House at that stage. hon. Gentleman remind the House how he voted on the Fixed Term Parliaments Bill introduced by my predecessor, Sadiq Khan: My hon. Friend makes the point well. David Howarth? More recently, and more importantly for this House, Sadiq Khan: The hon. Gentleman should explain why our concerns about the length of the Parliament have he has changed his mind in relation to his predecessor’s been strengthened since the Bill was in Committee by Bill. He will recall that there was insufficient time to the Lords Constitution Committee. In his short allow the Bill introduced by his predecessor—a very contribution, the Deputy Prime Minister cherry-picked good and honourable man—to receive proper debate in parts of its report, but he missed out the most crucial the House of Commons. The question that should be bit. In the Constitution Committee’s view, five years is asked is why the hon. Gentleman has done a U-turn on simply too long. Like us, it argues that four years is that Bill. [Interruption.] The Whip, the right hon. Member more appropriate. Its report challenged the Deputy for Rayleigh and Wickford (Mr Francois), heckles me Prime Minister’s assertions that the Government’s progress but if he wants to get to his feet, I am happy to take an on constitutional and political reform, of which the Bill intervention. is a key component, will make Parliament more accountable to the people. The Constitution Committee argues that This sort of Westminster arrogance will not go down the provisions in the Bill to fix the length of Parliaments well in Cardiff, Belfast and Edinburgh. People in those to five years would lead to less frequent elections and places will remember the arrogant way in which the make the legislature less accountable, not more. Under Deputy Prime Minister’s deputy, after a number of a system of fixed five-year terms, there would have been hours of debate on this issue on day one of the Committee, four fewer elections since 1945. and after a number of Members had spoken, pulled from his pocket an option to allow devolved Assembly I know the pressure that will be brought to bear on elections to be brought forward by up to six months in Government Members to support the Bill—a Bill that the event of their being scheduled at the same time as a they do not believe in and that they have a problem general election. There was no consultation and no with. However, when they come to decide whether to discussion with us or the devolved Administrations give it a Third Reading, they should remember the before that. We have heard how unhappy they are with words of the Lords Constitution Committee, which this. said that a five-year term was “inconsistent with the Government’s stated aim of making the Mr Harper: Will the right hon. Gentleman give way? legislature more accountable, inconsistent with existing constitutional practice and inconsistent with the practice of the devolved institutions Sadiq Khan: Of course I will give way. and the clear majority of international legislatures”— except in Rwanda. If the Bill goes through this House, Mr Harper: The right hon. Gentleman knows, as I the Opposition will be looking to the Lords to heed the made clear at the time, that I announced that option in advice of their own Constitution Committee and recognise this House first because I thought it proper for Parliament that four years is a much more sensible length of time to hear it first. I then wrote to all the party leaders. for a fixed-term Parliament. During the process, I have kept him informed, have Time is short, so I will not go into the other problems placed copies of the correspondence in the House of that we have with the Bill. However, what I will say, and Commons and have updated the House. At all stages, I for the second time in a number of months, is that I am have kept this House informed, as is the proper process. optimistic and sincerely hopeful that the other place will inject some sanity into this Bill, through proper Sadiq Khan: I am happy for the hon. Gentleman to scrutiny. This Bill is rushed, self-serving and opportunistic. intervene again. Is it not right that a number of colleagues It is an affront to how we ought to go about amending had taken part in the debate and an amendment had and improving our constitution. We shall be voting been moved, and that it was only towards the end of the against it being given a Third Reading. evening that he pulled the option out of his pocket? 9.37 pm Mr Harper: I was very keen to do something that the previous Government did not do often: I listened to the Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): I have no debate and to the concerns raised by Members on both rancour against the coalition. I think that it is doing sides of the House, and then announced to the House some wonderful things: in deficit reduction, welfare what I thought might be a sensible move forward. As I reform and education. We are lucky to have two very said on Report, colleagues in the devolved Parliament fine young men at the head of this coalition—they and Assemblies have written back to me to say that they know who they are, and they do not need to be named. are less than overwhelmed by my proposals. That is why However, I feel that they have got this one wrong. This we did not move them on Report. That was a perfectly Bill is a mistake. We have had 350 years of settled sensible way to conduct matters. parliamentary democracy. We have had no despots 801 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 802

[Mr Charles Walker] I wish to focus on the length of the fixed-term Parliament. We have seen, in the actions of the Government in ruling—and ruining—this country. We have a great deal relation to the Parliamentary Voting System and to be proud of. I have listened to the arguments closely Constituencies Bill, that what drives them is not the from the outset. I voted against the Bill on Second good of the nation but the good of the coalition—or Reading, and I had hoped to be persuaded in the the Tory-led Government, as we like to call them. They intervening weeks that somehow I was wrong and that are always at pains to ensure the that yin and yang of many of my colleagues were right. However, I am afraid the coalition are in perfect harmony, so, rather than that I was right and they are wrong. This remains an giving people the chance to put away the notion of the extremely bad Bill. alternative vote on 5 May, they are demanding to keep Some wonderful arguments have been put forward. the two parts of the Bill together to keep the coalition We have been told that the British public do not like happy. And so it is with this Bill. It proposes a Parliament general elections—that we must have less of them; that of five years, not four years, because that is what the the last thing that my constituents want is a general coalition, not the nation, needs. election every three or four years, because they are so Professor Robert Blackburn, of King’s college, London, bored of them. However, in the same breath, we are told put it well when he said: that we should have elections for mayors and police “It is likely that the Coalition’s concern with concretising its commissioners; and yet somehow, the most important political alliance and having the longest period possible in which election of all—a general election—is relegated to something to implement its tax increases and cuts in public expenditure and that we would rather not have, and if we must have then recover sufficient popularity in time for its next meeting with them, we should have them every five years. the electorate, has affected its judgement in this matter. In my view, the period between general elections should clearly be four years”. Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): My constituents cannot wait for the next general election. Sir Alan Beith: I do not understand the hon. Gentleman’s argument. If the coalition’s motive had simply been to Mr Walker: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be postpone an election for five years in order to have more standing in his seat at the next general election and that time to sort the country out, that could have been the reason his constituents cannot wait is that they want achieved by prime ministerial decision. What the Bill once again to affirm his brilliance. does is to ensure that the next Government, and the one We have had 350 years of settled parliamentary after that and the one after that, will be subject to these democracy, and we are now turning our backs on that a provisions. Perhaps, some day, the hon. Gentleman’s little hastily. Of course, we can draw on the European party will recover enough to form such a Government. model. Europe is a great place—I think it is absolutely wonderful—but there is not a great deal that it can Tristram Hunt: Coalition Members really do not teach us about democracy. Democracy is an innovation understand the difference between the norm and the across most of Europe, arriving in 1945 and 1946 in maximum. We have had this problem with them over some places, and in the late 1990s in others. So, although many weeks now. The issue is whether we want to move many good things are happening in Europe, our from the norm to the maximum. Across the academic parliamentary democracy is something that we should and political communities, we can see—if we look at the be proud of. work of Robert Hazell, for example—that four years I do not want to stray outside the bounds of this are preferred to five. The view of the Political and Third Reading debate, so I shall conclude my remarks Constitutional Reform Committee—on which I am happy by saying that I think this coalition is going to last for to serve with the hon. Member for Carmarthen West five years. It is led by two honourable and right honourable and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart)—was that most Gentlemen, and if they want it to last for five years, opinion suggests that it would be better for general they will take their parliamentary parties with them. elections to be held every four years, rather than every five. But it should not be the duty of Parliament to do the heavy lifting for the coalition. That is the duty of the Simon Hart: The hon. Gentleman is suggesting that coalition partners. The Bill is a grave mistake, and I am fixing the term at five years automatically favours the afraid that there is only one thing I can do from now on: Government of the day, whereas it can of course have I must work tirelessly for the rest of my parliamentary the opposite effect. Does he agree with me, as did some career to become Prime Minister so that I can do away of the witnesses who appeared before our Committee, with what I regard as this rather dangerous piece of that by tying themselves into a five-year fixed term, the nonsense. Government might find that the election coincides with a rather dismal period in the opinion polls, giving great 9.41 pm advantage to the Opposition? I thought that that evidence Tristram Hunt: I am grateful that we have been allowed was given to the Select Committee— to discuss the Bill. Today’s debate has been awash with the abuse of peers at the other end of the Palace who Mr Speaker: Order. We are grateful to the hon. have simply being doing their job of scrutinising Gentleman, but his intervention is getting rather long. Government legislation. We should not omit the vital role of the newly ennobled Lord Fellowes in that act of Tristram Hunt: I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, scrutiny, whose contribution was, we are told, to give an but the benefits of a fixed-term schedule outweigh hour-long talk in an upstairs room entitled “A life on those potential risks. I regard four years as within the stage and screen”. Such are the indignities of packing rhythm of this country, as it is within the rhythm of the second Chamber. other European as well as Westminster-style democracies— 803 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 804

Canada, Denmark, the American presidential term, I referred in an earlier intervention—on the hon. Germany, Sweden. The change to five years is for the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt), if good of the coalition, not the nation. my memory serves me right—to witnesses appearing The Deputy Prime Minister referred to and quoted before the Political and Constitutional Reform Committee. the Chartists again in today’s Question Time, but the Although there was a general tendency for those witnesses Chartists believed in annual Parliaments, not in extending to err in favour of a four-year fixed term, there was the term to five years. As we have heard, the Liberal certainly no significant alarm bell sounded about a Democrats used to believe in four-year terms—before five-year fixed term. Simply citing a number of other the allure of office moved them to change their minds. examples across Europe and the rest of the world in an May I suggest that the coalition listen to a real coalition attempt to suggest that this would have devastating leader, the late Herbert Asquith? On introducing his effects in the UK simply does not wash. There are own cut to the parliamentary term, he spoke of securing plenty of examples in the UK—Wales is one of them—to a House of Commons that is confirm that. “always either fresh from the polls which it gave it authority, The argument I have heard repeated over and over or—and this is an equally effective check upon acting in defiance again by the shadow Minister and others is that this of the popular will—it is looking forward to the polls at which it measure will result in us having the longest fixed-term will have to render an account of its stewardship.”—[Official Parliament ever, to which I say, “So what?” If the public Report, 21 February 1911; Vol. XXI, c. 1749.] and my electors, in common with electors further afield That seems to be the perfect combination. I will move in Wales and elsewhere, are as content as they seem to on quickly, as others wish to speak. be, so what? If it results in settled and sound government, I do not feel that the Government have dealt with the we should have nothing to fear from it. problem of exclusive cognisance very effectively, so it Let me end my brief speech by saying that we have still poses the danger of judicial interference. This Bill heard no evidence, either in the Select Committee or fits all too neatly into the Government’s overarching during today’s debate, to suggest that a five-year fixed constitutional reform strategy: coalition first, country term would pose any constitutional, economic, social second. Whether it be packing the House of Lords, or any other dangers that need trouble the House or, increasing the number of Ministers by 10%, undermining much more importantly, the voters who put us here. the Union by slashing 25% of constituencies in Wales, or overriding historic or geographic settlements in new parliamentary boundaries, it is Clegg and Cameron 9.50 pm first, country second. That is the abiding weakness of Austin Mitchell: It was interesting to hear the Deputy coalition Government. The tragedy is that if this Bill is Prime Minister present as a great constitutional innovation passed, we will have five years of it. what is in fact a sordid little Bill, which is intended to Several hon. Members rose— keep the coalition clinging together for five years in the hope that that will be long enough for the Liberal Mr Speaker: Order. There are fewer than 14 minutes Democrats to extract some concessions from the to go and four Members are seeking to catch my eye. Conservatives as a reward for joining the coalition. Members can do the arithmetic for themselves, so some Sadly, this brings to mind an image from the Brazil regard for each other’s interests would be appreciated. floods that many of us saw on television last week. A poor lady was on the roof of her house clutching a 9.47 pm dog—the poor lady representing the Conservative party, Simon Hart: I start by thanking the shadow Minister, and the dog representing the Liberal Democrats. The the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) for early lady was being winched up by a helicopter, while the warning of his visit to my constituency next week. I dog was being washed away. That is the end of the story. extend the invitation to him; if he does not find the The woman was saved, as the Conservative party will be speech to the Labour group in Tenby going as well as he by this measure, but the Liberal Democrat dog was would like, he is always very welcome in my house, as he washed away into the waters. well knows. The Opposition have tried to amend and improve the Ministers are well aware that of all the constitutional Bill. We have tried to remove some of its faults. In measures going through Parliament, I find this one to particular, we have tried to reduce the term involved, or be undoubtedly the most attractive. I have to say that I rather to prevent a five-year term from becoming the have found it ever more attractive as the debates have norm—for although the Deputy Prime Minister has played out. One reason is that Wales provides a living described five years as the norm, it is not; it is the example of fixed-term Parliaments. If my voters and exception. electors are anything to go by, there is a very relaxed It has been said that this is a genius of a Bill because attitude towards whether it will be four or five years it prevents Prime Ministers from manipulating the economy, before they are asked to go to the polls. or manipulating politics, in order to be returned to There seems to be an increasing amount of synthetic office. That happened in the 1950s and 1960s, at a time frustration being expressed—not by all Members, but when Prime Ministers could manipulate the economy. by some Opposition Members—about the potential Now the economy manipulates Prime Ministers. When economic, social, cultural and constitutional damage we examine the record of past Prime Ministers, it is that can be done by this measure. If the experience of interesting to note how many of them made timing Wales is anything to go by, that is a very long way from mistakes that lost them elections. Let me list them. the truth. The public are completely relaxed about Wilson in 1970: mistaken timing. Heath in 1974: mistaken whether they are required to follow the pattern adopted timing. It was either three weeks too late or three by the Welsh Assembly or the proposal before us tonight. months too early. Callaghan in 1979: mistaken timing. 805 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 806

[Austin Mitchell] I also have a slight concern about the mechanism in the Bill for how an election is called. I agree with my He should have gone for it in 1978. Then there was one hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne that hundreds called Brown who should have gone for it in 2007, but, of years of parliamentary history suggest that we have as was mentioned earlier, he made the mistake of outstaying not in the past had a particular problem with that, so I his welcome. do not understand why we are putting this convoluted That is what the coalition will do by extending the system in place. Frankly however, it is not an issue that length of this Parliament. The fact is that the people taxes many of my constituents. Their concern is that want us to be kept us a shorter leash, and shorter they get an election when the time is right. Parliaments provide the most effective way of ensuring I think everybody accepts that most of the terms that that that happens. They ensure that we remain accountable, have run to five years have not, by any stretch of the that we present ourselves to the electorate, and that we imagination, been in the best interests of the country. are open to re-election. I think that a three-year Parliament, I would not want us to end up with long Parliaments, like that adopted by Australia and New Zealand, would with the public becoming increasingly disengaged and be far more sensible, and would accord more with the angry as we head towards a general election. public mood. [Interruption.] Forget 1984; I have already. If we move to the alternative vote we could end up Let me end—because I want to be brief—by saying with a strange system. Candidates who have come second that the Bill is an attempt to keep the coalition in in their constituency but who still manage to get elected power through manipulation. I think that the coalition might represent a third party, and they might then will find in five years that by trying to stay in power determine whether we had a general election even though and by manipulating the electoral system through the they had come second. Whichever party they might loss of 50 Members—which the Deputy Prime Minister represent, I do not think allowing a party to switch sides presumably thinks will weaken the Executive—it has midway through a Parliament and change the Government outstayed its welcome. That is certainly what happened without going back to the people is at all desirable. to us—and indeed, the coalition has outstayed its welcome I will not detain the House any longer, as I know that already. one more Member wishes to speak. I opposed the Bill on Second Reading, and I will not support it if there is a Division on Third Reading, because I genuinely believe 9.53 pm a four-year term is far more appropriate than five years. Andrew Percy: I do not intend to detain the House too long. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne 9.57 pm (Mr Walker) made many of the points that I would Mark Durkan: Those of us who have been through otherwise have made. He also launched a bid for the all the stages of this Bill, including the Committee stage leadership of the Conservative party. I do not intend to and the Report stage tonight, were delighted to see the emulate him in that regard; indeed, I do not think that I Deputy Prime Minister join us. The same thing happened would be able to secure the necessary nominations. during proceedings on the Parliamentary Voting System I voted against the Bill on Second Reading, but I have and Constituencies Bill; the Deputy Prime Minister absolutely no problems with the coalition. In fact, I came in like Janet Webb at the end, pushing out the two have a great deal of regard for my right hon. Friend the comedians who had run the show, to make the valedictory Deputy Prime Minister. I have always respected him as statements. a politician, although during the leadership debates my Many of us have no issue with the principle of a emotions were a bit more up and down in terms of his fixed-term Parliament. We support that, but we do have performance. I do not suggest for a moment that the serious questions about details of the Bill, and how it aim of the Bill is to prop up the coalition. However, I interacts with the Parliamentary Voting System and think that the decision to adopt fixed five-year terms is Constituencies Bill. That other Bill is the real reason wrong. why the parliamentary term is being set at five years: that Bill fixes that the boundaries will be fixed every five As I said in Committee, I think that one of our years for each Parliament, which is what has necessitated biggest problems following the expenses scandal and all the five-year fixed term in this Bill—it is because of that that surrounded it is a disengagement with politics. fix, and there is no point anybody denying that. I believe that a four-year term is more natural. It is the term to which we expect local councillors to adhere, as The Deputy Prime Minister and the Government well as representatives in the devolved Parliament and have brought this Bill about in a way that has shown a Assemblies in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. complete disregard for the interests of the devolved I fail to understand why the arguments as to why a institutions, as they also did with that other Bill. That councillor or MSP should serve for four years do not reckless disregard almost has the air of a joyrider about also apply to a Member of Parliament. Indeed, I am it. The Deputy Prime Minister needs to recognise that actually quite keen to get back to my electorate. When the day will come when he will regret the premature politicians have a five-year term, there is a temptation miscalculation that has been involved in both these for them to take their foot off the pedal in respect of the Bills. They will not hold the coalition together. As we work they do in their constituency. I hope not to do have seen in the experience of Irish coalition politics on that; I hope still to be working as hard in two years’ time so many occasions, there comes a point in the life of a as now. A four-year cycle is, however, a more natural coalition when people look to get out of it. political term, and I am very enthusiastic about engaging The Deputy Leader of the House said earlier that with my electorate as often as possible—so long as they this Bill will prevent any snap election in future. It will make the right choice. do no such thing. The device for a motion of no 807 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 808 confidence is not unusable. It is not the case that nobody Ellison, Jane James, Margot is ever going to use it; it will be used. Many of us have Elphicke, Charlie Javid, Sajid been through the experience in politics where the Eustice, George Johnson, Gareth unthinkable has happened, because that is the device Evans, Graham Johnson, Joseph people had available to them. I have been belonged to a Evans, Jonathan Jones, Andrew system where a resignation that took place was then Evennett, Mr David Jones, Mr David Fabricant, Michael Jones, Mr Marcus deemed not to have taken place at all. I have been Fallon, Michael Kawczynski, Daniel present when judgments that were meant to be made by Farron, Tim Kelly, Chris a Secretary of State, under the law, to select a date were Featherstone, Lynne Kennedy, rh Mr Charles then completely undone. I have served with people who, Field, Mr Mark Kirby, Simon on being elected to office, immediately had letters of Foster, rh Mr Don Knight, rh Mr Greg resignation in their pockets, simply because that was the Francois, rh Mr Mark Kwarteng, Kwasi device that could be used. People will do the absurd. In Freeman, George Laing, Mrs Eleanor politics, as in so many other things, when the imperative Freer, Mike Lancaster, Mark comes for divorce, divorce will take place. People will Fullbrook, Lorraine Lansley, rh Mr Andrew not say, “We are not going for it because we will have to Fuller, Richard Latham, Pauline go through temporary embarrassment or we will take Gale, Mr Roger Laws, rh Mr David some of the blame.” That is what people will do, and the Garnier, Mr Edward Leadsom, Andrea Liberal Democrats will find themselves caught in that Garnier, Mark Lee, Jessica Gauke, Mr David Lee, Dr Phillip situation, with the Tories and Labour happily ending George, Andrew Leech, Mr John this Parliament prematurely. Gibb, Mr Nick Lefroy, Jeremy Gilbert, Stephen Leslie, Charlotte 10 pm Gillan, rh Mrs Cheryl Letwin, rh Mr Oliver Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 13 September). Goldsmith, Zac Lewis, Brandon The Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed Goodwill, Mr Robert Liddell-Grainger, Mr Ian Gove, rh Michael Lidington, rh Mr David from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the Bill Graham, Richard Lilley, rh Mr Peter be now read the Third time. Grant, Mrs Helen Lloyd, Stephen The House divided: Ayes 320, Noes 234. Gray, Mr James Long, Naomi Grayling, rh Chris Lopresti, Jack Division No. 175] [10 pm Green, Damian Lord, Jonathan Greening, Justine Loughton, Tim AYES Grieve, rh Mr Dominic Lucas, Caroline Adams, Nigel Bruce, rh Malcolm Griffiths, Andrew Luff, Peter Afriyie, Adam Buckland, Mr Robert Gyimah, Mr Sam Lumley, Karen Aldous, Peter Burley, Mr Aidan Halfon, Robert Macleod, Mary Alexander, rh Danny Burns, Mr Simon Hames, Duncan Main, Mrs Anne Andrew, Stuart Burrowes, Mr David Hammond, rh Mr Philip Maude, rh Mr Francis Bacon, Mr Richard Burstow, Paul Hammond, Stephen May, rh Mrs Theresa Bagshawe, Ms Louise Burt, Lorely Hancock, Matthew Maynard, Paul Baker, Norman Byles, Dan Hancock, Mr Mike McCartney, Jason Baker, Steve Cairns, Alun Hands, Greg McCartney, Karl Baldry, Tony Campbell, Mr Gregory Harper, Mr Mark McCrea, Dr William Baldwin, Harriett Carmichael, Neil Harrington, Richard McIntosh, Miss Anne Barclay, Stephen Carswell, Mr Douglas Harris, Rebecca McLoughlin, rh Mr Patrick Baron, Mr John Chishti, Rehman Hart, Simon McPartland, Stephen Barwell, Gavin Clappison, Mr James Harvey, Nick McVey, Esther Bebb, Guto Clarke, rh Mr Kenneth Haselhurst, rh Sir Alan Menzies, Mark Beith, rh Sir Alan Clegg, rh Mr Nick Hayes, Mr John Mercer, Patrick Bellingham, Mr Henry Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Heald, Mr Oliver Metcalfe, Stephen Benyon, Richard Coffey, Dr Thérèse Heath, Mr David Miller, Maria Beresford, Sir Paul Collins, Damian Heaton-Harris, Chris Mills, Nigel Berry, Jake Colvile, Oliver Hemming, John Milton, Anne Bingham, Andrew Cox, Mr Geoffrey Henderson, Gordon Mitchell, rh Mr Andrew Birtwistle, Gordon Crabb, Stephen Hendry, Charles Moore, rh Michael Blackman, Bob Crockart, Mike Herbert, rh Nick Morgan, Nicky Blackwood, Nicola Crouch, Tracey Hinds, Damian Morris, Anne Marie Blunt, Mr Crispin Davies, David T. C. Hoban, Mr Mark Morris, David Boles, Nick (Monmouth) Hollingbery, George Morris, James Bone, Mr Peter Davies, Glyn Holloway, Mr Adam Mosley, Stephen Bottomley, Sir Peter Davis, rh Mr David Hopkins, Kris Mowat, David Bradley, Karen de Bois, Nick Horwood, Martin Mulholland, Greg Brake, Tom Dinenage, Caroline Howarth, Mr Gerald Mundell, rh David Bray, Angie Djanogly, Mr Jonathan Howell, John Munt, Tessa Brazier, Mr Julian Dodds, rh Mr Nigel Hughes, rh Simon Murray, Sheryll Bridgen, Andrew Dorrell, rh Mr Stephen Huhne, rh Chris Murrison, Dr Andrew Brine, Mr Steve Doyle-Price, Jackie Hunt, rh Mr Jeremy Neill, Robert Brokenshire, James Duncan, rh Mr Alan Hunter, Mark Newmark, Mr Brooks Brooke, Annette Dunne, Mr Philip Huppert, Dr Julian Newton, Sarah Bruce, Fiona Ellis, Michael Jackson, Mr Stewart Nokes, Caroline 809 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill18 JANUARY 2011 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 810

Norman, Jesse Stevenson, John Burnham, rh Andy Healey, rh John Offord, Mr Matthew Stewart, Iain Byrne, rh Mr Liam Hendrick, Mark Ollerenshaw, Eric Stewart, Rory Cairns, David Hepburn, Mr Stephen Opperman, Guy Streeter, Mr Gary Campbell, Mr Alan Hermon, Lady Ottaway, Richard Stride, Mel Caton, Martin Heyes, David Paice, rh Mr James Stuart, Mr Graham Chapman, Mrs Jenny Hillier, Meg Parish, Neil Stunell, Andrew Chope, Mr Christopher Hilling, Julie Patel, Priti Sturdy, Julian Clark, Katy Hodge, rh Margaret Paterson, rh Mr Owen Swales, Ian Clarke, rh Mr Tom Hodgson, Mrs Sharon Pawsey, Mark Swayne, Mr Desmond Clwyd, rh Ann Hollobone, Mr Philip Penning, Mike Swinson, Jo Coaker, Vernon Hood, Mr Jim Penrose, John Syms, Mr Robert Coffey, Ann Hopkins, Kelvin Perry, Claire Teather, Sarah Connarty, Michael Hosie, Stewart Phillips, Stephen Thurso, John Cooper, Rosie Howarth, rh Mr George Pickles, rh Mr Eric Timpson, Mr Edward Cooper, rh Yvette Hunt, Tristram Pincher, Christopher Tomlinson, Justin Corbyn, Jeremy Irranca-Davies, Huw Poulter, Dr Daniel Tredinnick, David Crausby, Mr David Jackson, Glenda Prisk, Mr Mark Truss, Elizabeth Creagh, Mary James, Mrs Siân C. Pritchard, Mark Tyrie, Mr Andrew Creasy, Dr Stella Jamieson, Cathy Pugh, John Uppal, Paul Cruddas, Jon Jones, Graham Raab, Mr Dominic Vara, Mr Shailesh Cryer, John Jones, Helen Randall, rh Mr John Vickers, Martin Cunningham, Alex Jones, Mr Kevan Reckless, Mark Villiers, rh Mrs Theresa Cunningham, Mr Jim Jones, Susan Elan Redwood, rh Mr John Walker, Mr Robin Cunningham, Tony Jowell, rh Tessa Reevell, Simon Wallace, Mr Ben Curran, Margaret Joyce, Eric Reid, Mr Alan Walter, Mr Robert Dakin, Nic Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Danczuk, Simon Keeley, Barbara Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm Ward, Mr David Robathan, rh Mr Andrew David, Mr Wayne Kendall, Liz Watkinson, Angela Rogerson, Dan Davidson, Mr Ian Khan, rh Sadiq Weatherley, Mike Rosindell, Andrew Davies, Geraint Lavery, Ian Webb, Steve Rudd, Amber Davies, Philip Lazarowicz, Mark Wharton, James Russell, Bob De Piero, Gloria Leslie, Chris Rutley, David Wheeler, Heather Denham, rh Mr John Lewis, Mr Ivan Sanders, Mr Adrian White, Chris Dobbin, Jim Lloyd, Tony Sandys, Laura Whittaker, Craig Dobson, rh Frank Llwyd, Mr Elfyn Scott, Mr Lee Whittingdale, Mr John Docherty, Thomas Love, Mr Andrew Selous, Andrew Wiggin, Bill Donohoe, Mr Brian H. Lucas, Ian Shannon, Jim Willetts, rh Mr David Doran, Mr Frank MacNeil, Mr Angus Brendan Shapps, rh Grant Williams, Mr Mark Dowd, Jim Mactaggart, Fiona Sharma, Alok Williams, Roger Doyle, Gemma Mahmood, Shabana Shelbrooke, Alec Williams, Stephen Dromey, Jack Mann, John Simmonds, Mark Williamson, Gavin Dugher, Michael Marsden, Mr Gordon Simpson, David Wilson, Mr Rob Durkan, Mark McCabe, Steve Simpson, Mr Keith Wilson, Sammy Eagle, Ms Angela McCann, Mr Michael Skidmore, Chris Wollaston, Dr Sarah Edwards, Jonathan McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Miss Chloe Wright, Jeremy Efford, Clive McClymont, Gregg Smith, Henry Wright, Simon Elliott, Julie McDonagh, Siobhain Ellman, Mrs Louise McDonnell, Dr Alasdair Smith, Julian Yeo, Mr Tim Smith, Sir Robert Esterson, Bill McFadden, rh Mr Pat Young, rh Sir George Soames, Nicholas Evans, Chris McGovern, Alison Zahawi, Nadhim Soubry, Anna Field, rh Mr Frank McGovern, Jim Spelman, rh Mrs Caroline Tellers for the Ayes: Fitzpatrick, Jim McGuire, rh Mrs Anne Spencer, Mr Mark James Duddridge and Flello, Robert McKechin, Ann Stephenson, Andrew Norman Lamb Flint, rh Caroline Meacher, rh Mr Michael Flynn, Paul Meale, Mr Alan NOES Fovargue, Yvonne Mearns, Ian Francis, Dr Hywel Michael, rh Alun Abbott, Ms Diane Benton, Mr Joe Gapes, Mike Miller, Andrew Abrahams, Debbie Berger, Luciana Gilmore, Sheila Mitchell, Austin Ainsworth, rh Mr Bob Betts, Mr Clive Glass, Pat Morden, Jessica Alexander, Heidi Blackman-Woods, Roberta Glindon, Mrs Mary Morrice, Graeme (Livingston) Ali, Rushanara Blears, rh Hazel Goggins, rh Paul Morris, Grahame M. Anderson, Mr David Blenkinsop, Tom Goodman, Helen (Easington) Austin, Ian Blomfield, Paul Green, Kate Mudie, Mr George Bailey, Mr Adrian Blunkett, rh Mr David Greenwood, Lilian Munn, Meg Bain, Mr William Bradshaw, rh Mr Ben Griffith, Nia Murphy, rh Mr Jim Balls, rh Ed Brennan, Kevin Gwynne, Andrew Murphy, rh Paul Banks, Gordon Brown, rh Mr Nicholas Hain, rh Mr Peter Murray, Ian Barron, rh Mr Kevin Brown, Mr Russell Hamilton, Mr David Nandy, Lisa Bayley, Hugh Bryant, Chris Hanson, rh Mr David Nash, Pamela Beckett, rh Margaret Buck, Ms Karen Harman, rh Ms Harriet Nuttall, Mr David Benn, rh Hilary Burden, Richard Harris, Mr Tom O’Donnell, Fiona 811 Fixed-term Parliaments Bill 18 JANUARY 2011 812

Onwurah, Chi Spellar, rh Mr John PETITIONS Owen, Albert Straw, rh Mr Jack Pearce, Teresa Stringer, Graham Further and Higher Education Funding Perkins, Toby Tami, Mark Phillipson, Bridget Thomas, Mr Gareth Qureshi, Yasmin Thornberry, Emily 10.15 pm Raynsford, rh Mr Nick Timms, rh Stephen Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab): On behalf of my Reed, Mr Jamie Turner, Mr Andrew constituents I present this petition from the staff and Reeves, Rachel Turner, Karl Reynolds, Emma Twigg, Derek students of Swallow Hill community college in the Reynolds, Jonathan Twigg, Stephen Leeds West constituency. Riordan, Mrs Linda Umunna, Mr Chuka The Petition of students and staff of Swallow Hill Community Ritchie, Ms Margaret Vaz, rh Keith College, and others, Robertson, Angus Vaz, Valerie Declares that the Petitioners oppose the abolition of the Education Robertson, John Walker, Mr Charles Maintenance Allowance; and further declares that the Petitioners Robinson, Mr Geoffrey Walley, Joan oppose the Government’s decision to raise Higher Education Rotheram, Steve Watts, Mr Dave tuition fees. Roy, Mr Frank Weir, Mr Mike The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons Roy, Lindsay Whiteford, Dr Eilidh urges the Government to reverse its decisions to abolish the Ruane, Chris Whitehead, Dr Alan Education Maintenance Allowance and to raise Higher Education Ruddock, rh Joan Wicks, rh Malcolm tuition fees. Sarwar, Anas Williams, Hywel And the Petitioners remain, etc. Seabeck, Alison Williamson, Chris [P000879] Sheerman, Mr Barry Wilson, Phil Sheridan, Jim Winnick, Mr David Education Maintenance Allowance Shuker, Gavin Winterton, rh Ms Rosie Wishart, Pete Skinner, Mr Dennis 10.16 pm Slaughter, Mr Andy Woodcock, John Smith, rh Mr Andrew Wright, Mr Iain Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland Smith, Nick Tellers for the Noes: West) (Lab): Seventy per cent. of the young people in Smith, Owen Angela Smith and City of Sunderland college are in receipt of the education Soulsby, Sir Peter David Wright maintenance allowance. Ninety per cent. of those receive the full £30. Question accordingly agreed to. The Petition of residents of Sunderland and the surrounding Bill read the Third time and passed. area, Declares that the Petitioners oppose the abolition of the Education Maintenance Allowance; and notes that education can provide a Business without Debate better future for young people. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS urges the Government not to abolish the Education Maintenance Allowance. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)), And the Petitioners remain, etc. [P000880] CITIZENS’ INITIATIVE That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 8399/10 and Addendum relating to the draft European Citizens’ Initiative Regulation, on which political agreement was reached by Council and Parliament at First Reading in December 2010; and supports the Government’s intention to develop a mechanism to implement the Citizens’ Initiative which encourages citizen engagement while minimising the burden on Member States.—(Mr. Newmark.) Question agreed to. 813 18 JANUARY 2011 West Midlands Police 814

West Midlands Police I often get complaints from constituents about antisocial behaviour on the Chinn Brook recreation ground, especially Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House during the lighter nights. The solution in the old-fashioned, do now adjourn.—(Mr. Newmark.) vehicle-led reactive policing days might have been to 10.17 pm send out a car and issue a few warnings or round up the loudest. That does not really solve the problem and Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Thank risks alienating young people from the police. you for granting this Adjournment debate, Mr Speaker. Last summer, I attended a barbecue organised by a This is my third encounter today with the Minister for local inspector and a sergeant and her team. They sent Policing and Criminal Justice. I assure him that I am invitations to families across the area. They made it not tiring of it, even if he might be getting a little fed up clear that the recreation ground could be used for fun with the sight of me. I am glad that a number of and family events, but that it had to be shared and the colleagues have stayed for the Adjournment debate, needs of others respected. They worked hard to sign up which shows their concern about this issue. every youngster who attended for a sports challenge or Alongside many of my west midlands colleagues, I some other activity to keep them busy on summer have spent quite a bit of time recently discussing the nights. That is the kind of policing that my constituents likely effects of cuts and reductions in policing. We have want, and it is the kind of policing that pays dividends talked with the Minister, shadow Ministers, police officers with young people. of various ranks, members of the police authority and West Midlands police have been one of the pioneers other key stakeholders. We all know that reductions in of a return to what is sometimes called autonomous or police funding are going to be at their worst in places common-sense policing, whereby the police set out to such as the west midlands, and that there may well be resolve community conflicts, antisocial behaviour and consequences that have so far been overlooked. sometimes intergenerational tensions by using their guile Inevitably, talk of police cuts leads to discussions and common sense, rather than boosting their arrest about the risks of rising crime and arguments over how figures. Using that kind of policing, minor vandalism the police use their time. Depending on the audience, it can be dealt with by perpetrators putting right the is not uncommon for young people to figure in the damage, or a punch-up in the school playground not discussions, as if they are a major cause of crime and automatically being recorded as an assault. For me, that antisocial behaviour and the entire nature of their is the foundation of neighbourhood policing. relationship with the police is one of conflict. I do not Many years ago, when I worked with young offenders, accept that—hence tonight’s debate. It is easy to forget I can well remember the juvenile court packed with that the police are often the first port of call for worried cases that might have been dealt with differently with a parents when youngsters go missing or run away from bit more common sense and desire for a just solution. home, when youngsters fall into bad company or when That is why I am anxious to protect this model of parents feel they are losing control. In my constituency policing. I am not alone in that view. More than 600 of of Selly Oak, it is common to see the police playing an my constituents have been in touch with me to express active role in working in schools and youth clubs. They their anxieties about what might happen if there is a take a very hands-on approach. huge reduction in officers and less time for community engagement. Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that school-based police Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP): The hon. Gentleman officers are crucial and make a huge difference that is will be aware that what he is referring to is replicated in noted by parents, teachers and local residents and, in a great many places across the United Kingdom, including particular, by students themselves? He might be interested in my constituency. It involves community policing, to know that I was lobbied last week by year 7 and new ideas—sometimes, midnight football—and flexibility 9 pupils from Small Heath school in my constituency— with children. It does not necessarily apply the rule of incidentally, it is my former school. They were lamenting law and use prosecution, but it shows how we work with the loss of their local police constable, PC Inglis, who them and take them away from the attractions that had been based at their school for a number of years sometimes lead them astray. and had made such an impact on the students and on antisocial behaviour, the rates of which had declined Steve McCabe: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely significantly. right. It is right that the police should try to forge links with those young people whom we sometimes describe Steve McCabe: I agree with my hon. Friend. At as “hard to reach”. The police should work with charities, Highters Heath school, it is not unusual to see officers voluntary groups and youth groups to help young people taking part in lessons or accompanying children on to feel safe and to enjoy themselves, while remembering school trips. That is part of a project developed by the to respect the needs of others. That is as important for head teacher, Jan Connor, in conjunction with her local front-line visibility as anything else that Sir Denis O’Connor police inspector and sergeant. They recognised that might comment on. contact with the police had to be about more than We can argue another time about the intensity of the warnings, inquiries or witnessing arrests, so they set out Government cuts and whether their scale and timing to break down the barriers and build a long-term are right. For the purposes of this debate, however, I relationship with the community. That is important, but simply want to highlight my fears about some of their it will be hard to measure when the accountants want to unintended consequences. Birmingham council’s antisocial balance the books. As with my hon. Friend, the young behaviour unit will be a victim of the cuts. It will lose people and constituents whom I speak to tell me that it most of its staff and might have to close. Although is making a difference. I have not necessarily agreed with its approach on 815 West Midlands Police18 JANUARY 2011 West Midlands Police 816 everything, I recognise that its trailblazing work is designed Our young people are already being short-changed. to prevent the growth and persistence of the antisocial They need people to advise them on the dangers of behaviour that wrecks communities and destroys lives. smoking and to provide honest advice on relationships In 2010, the unit was able to work with the police on a and sexual behaviour. They need to know about the spate of gang-related activities, as well as the identification risks of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. and closure of premises that were being used as brothels They need places to go where they can feel safe and in a dark world where young women are often lured form relationships with adults that are not destructive into a life of depravity and despair. The police have and exploitative. The police play a crucial role in supporting worked with local charities to create safe havens to help many of those services. We should not overlook the to take youngsters off the streets and to develop superb work they do in partnership with others. opportunities for the police and others to work with Police cuts do not affect only the elderly, home owners them constructively. We have one safe haven in the and businesses, all of whom have reason to fear the Quinton area of south Birmingham. The police officers scale of cuts in the west midlands. They also affect I speak to are positive about the value of that work. youngsters who deserve the chance to develop decent They intend to create a network of havens, but now we relations with the police, who need access to challenging might be fighting to prevent the closure of the one that activities to absorb their energy and exuberance, who already exists. come from violent homes or who have no home, and In some parts of Birmingham, the authorities have who want to feel safe and deserve a chance like everyone made good use of money available from pots such as else. Now is not the time to reduce support for young the working neighbourhoods fund and safer city people. Future generations deserve better from us. partnerships. They use that funding with the police to I am sure that that is what the right hon. Member for tackle antisocial behaviour, to reduce gang activity and Havant (Mr Willetts), now Minister for Universities to act on neighbourhood tensions and intergenerational and Science, had in mind when he talked in his excellent conflicts. Bodies such as the centre for conflict resolution book “The Pinch” about the contract across generations have been part of that, but what is their future as their and the responsibilities of the baby boomer generation partners find their budgets slashed? to the subsequent generation. We need to recognise the At least three youth groups in Selly Oak are expressing important role that the police can play and not treat our concern that the work they do with the police is at risk. young people as voiceless individuals—those without a The 641 group might have to close, and the Den and vote who can be left at the bottom of the pecking order St Mary’s youth group are also in a precarious position. when these cuts are imposed. Yesterday, I received quite a sad letter from two young men in my constituency—Kieran Greenway and Tom 10.32 pm O’Rielly—who wanted me to know that they had started a petition to try to stop the closure of their youth club: The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Masefield youth club. They feel that the club is teaching Herbert): I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, them about co-operation and teamwork. It is providing Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) on securing the debate. I am assistance in their search for work or training opportunities, delighted to be discussing these issues with him once which is no mean task for a young person in Birmingham again—I think for the third time today. I have also met at the moment. The club encourages them to look at him to discuss the funding of West Midlands police, their own behaviour. It helps to divert them from trouble and I know that he speaks with genuine concern, passion and from being blamed for causing trouble. It also and interest about the subject, which is also motivated reduces the chance that they might be drawn into acts of by the interests of his constituents and by wanting the vandalism or exposed to violence and drugs, or that best possible police service in his constituency and more they might develop relationships with the police that widely in the west midlands. That is an ambition that are wholly hostile and confrontational. They want to the Government share. It is the first duty of the keep their club in their area because they do not have to Government—of any Government—to ensure that the travel far to get there and, as a result, they are less likely public are safe, and it is important to us all that we have to be exposed to street crime. Violence and robbery are an efficient and effective police service. However, the real problems for many young people these days, and Government also have to deal with the deficit. The hon. those under 25 are much more likely to be victims than Gentleman recognised that in his comments. We can perpetrators. disagree about the pace at which the deficit is being For a big city, Birmingham does not do that well in dealt with, but Government Members argue that it is youth provision, although I pay tribute to the countless essential that it is dealt with as fast as we are proposing. dedicated individuals who give up their time to help and Nevertheless, I think that both sides agree that the support our young people. They are part of the Prime police would have to make savings irrespective of how Minister’s big society, but they are fighting a very tough fast that deficit was reduced, and there is indeed agreement battle and they increasingly think that the little support on both sides that the police can make substantial that does exist is being steadily removed. savings, so what we have is a discussion about the scale Birmingham city council’s own overview and scrutiny of those savings and how they can be delivered in a way committee recommended in its November 2006 report that does not affect or damage the service that people that decent youth services required an average spend of are entitled to expect in their homes, in their workplace £100 to £110 per youngster per year. In the constituency and on the streets. I believe that it will be possible for of my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Northfield police forces across the country, including the West (Richard Burden), the spend is about £60. In Selly Oak, Midlands police, to restructure, make savings and drive it is about £45, and in the constituency of my neighbour, down costs in a way that will enable them to deal with my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston the reductions in grant that we have had to announce, (Ms Stuart), it is about £30. without producing a service that is worse for the public. 817 West Midlands Police18 JANUARY 2011 West Midlands Police 818

[Nick Herbert] the A19 procedure so that police officers who have reached 30 years of service retire. There will be reductions We are asking the police to make savings to meet a in the size of police work forces, and that is true for challenging funding settlement. We have always said West Midlands police. However, that is not the same as that it would be challenging; it was announced in the saying that there will necessarily be a reduction in the spending review that the central Government grant to quality of service for the public. The task for chief police forces is reducing by 20% in real terms over four constables and their managers in the police force, supported years. by their policy authorities and the Government, is to Not every force is affected in the same way, because find ways to drive the kind of service redesign that will the amount of resource that is available to forces depends mean that the public still see their police officers on the on how much they raise from council tax payers. Every streets and still receive a good response from them and force raises some money from council tax payers. On that the police are still able to engage in the kind of average, that is about a quarter of the funding that they partnership activity that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, receive, so it is a highly significant share. The West which is so important in dealing with youth crime. Midlands force receives the second lowest amount from In addition to the savings that the inspectorate of the council tax payer, a point that has been well made constabulary identified, we believe that further savings by the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. That means could be made by police forces. I rehearsed some of that the 20% reduction in real terms is more challenging those briefly with the Home Affairs Committee today for West Midlands than for other forces. and will be happy to do so again. For instance, we think As I explained to the Home Affairs Committee today, that procurement of non-IT goods and services could we looked closely at whether it would be right or save another £200 million a year, bearing in mind that possible to adjust the grant reduction to take into police authorities currently spend £2.8 billion a year on account the fact that some forces, such as the West equipment, goods and services. We also think that Midlands force, raise less from their precept, but there savings from IT will be possible if police forces collaborate. were a number of objections to that. One is that by We have a new approach to procuring and managing IT. doing so, we would be penalising council tax payers in There are 2,000 IT systems between the 43 forces, other areas who already pay far more for their policing employing around 5,000 staff. The general view in the services and have had a big increase in council tax over service is that savings will be possible by managing that previous years. That would be unfair. Also, by subsidising better, and the Government are determined to help forces, including large forces such as West Midlands, in drive that. that way, we would be asking other forces to take a Furthermore, we have set up an independent review larger cut in central grant than 20%. They would have of pay and conditions under Tom Winsor, the former regarded that as very unfair. rail regulator, and it will produce its first report shortly. It seems right and fair to treat all forces in the same That will advise us on the right and proper balance way and ask that they deal with a 20% reduction in real between pay and conditions and whether we have the terms. The implications of that are not the same in cash right arrangements in relation, for instance, to overtime, terms. The cash reduction for forces in the first year is special priority payments and such matters. That will 5.1%. In the second year it is 6.7% on average. Taking enable us to ensure that we have an affordable service, account of the specific grants that are added, the average but also one that fairly remunerates officers, who do reduction is 4% in the first year, 5% in the second, 2% in such an important job, recognising that they cannot the third and 1% in the fourth. Those are cash figures strike and that many do a difficult and often dangerous and do not take into account inflation, but they illustrate job. We await Tom Winsor’s report and will then advise the fact that although these are challenging reductions, on our position. Any changes that might be made, they are manageable, provided that considerable savings including the possibility of a two-year pay freeze, which can be achieved. would also save significant sums of money for police forces and which we expect the rest of the public sector Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary says that to undergo, would have to be agreed by the police forces together can save more than £1 billion a year—that negotiating board. is some 12% of their funding from central Government— while protecting front-line services. They can achieve Despite the fact that we expect that the overall size of that by redesigning their services, and specifically by the police work force to be reduced, including in the making changes in their back and middle offices, including west midlands, we are absolutely determined to protect by outsourcing. That has happened to differing degrees front-line services. across forces, but the West Midlands police are now looking at such a radical service redesign. Steve McCabe: I recognise the difficult job that the Minister has. Does he have any plans to issue guidance I met the chief constable again today. Indeed, I have or advice to the police on the significance of young just been with him, discussing these very issues. The people when considering their budgets? That group kinds of project that the force is considering are those cannot vote and does not have a voice in the same way that would save large sums of money as it attempts to as adults, and that is part of the purpose of raising the meet the budget reductions, but I do not believe that matter. those changes would mean a reduction in service that would be felt by the public. Nick Herbert: I was going to move on to young The Government have never been able to give a people. I have no specific plans to issue that kind of guarantee about police numbers, and nor were the guidance, partly because I do not think that I need to previous Government. We recognise that police forces persuade chief officers or police forces about the importance are having to institute a recruitment freeze and that of such work. They know that the significant investment some forces, including West Midlands police, are using that has been made in the development of neighbourhood 819 West Midlands Police18 JANUARY 2011 West Midlands Police 820 policing and the growth of partnership working, whereby work in tackling youth crime and violence in Birmingham. police officers are engaged with local authorities in Birmingham has worked closely with the Government crime reduction measures, particularly those affecting on a number of programmes to tackle youth crime and young people, has been a really important move. It has violence, and the city pioneered the use of civil injunctions helped to reduce crime and to build public confidence, to tackle gang violence, an approach that was subsequently and my understanding is that chief officers, including enshrined in law and will go live on 31 January. This Chris Sims, the chief constable of West Midlands police, year the Home Office will provide Birmingham with are committed to it. £350,000 for work to tackle youth crime, in addition to We need to send a message to local authorities. They £85,000 for work to tackle youth violence. So we are of course face equally challenging reductions in funding, doing what we can. but, as they too have to take very difficult decisions on In conclusion, I pay tribute to all the people who how to make savings, it is important that we remind work in Birmingham and elsewhere to prevent and them that community safety is one of their statutory tackle youth crime and violence: local communities, responsibilities, and that the partnership work that we police officers, police community support officers, youth have seen between local authorities and the police locally offending teams and others. The Government’s aspirations has helped to make communities safer and must continue. for policing in the west midlands are the same. The chief As local authorities consider how to achieve those constable could not have put it better when he said on aims, we want to ensure that local partnerships have a 11 January: purpose, that they are non-bureaucratic and that they “My task is to protect delivery at all costs, to protect the do not waste time. They should not simply involve frontline, to protect neighbourhood teams which have been such a meetings between council officials and police officers; success, to keep our ability to deliver the policing people want.” they should be places of real action-orientated policing, We share that ambition. with a strong focus on preventing crime and all the Question put and agreed to. measures that we know to be successful, particularly in youth services. I pay tribute to the West Midlands police and its 10.47 pm partners in the community safety partnership for their House adjourned.

183WH 18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 184WH

formula, which came out in July 2009, he will see the Westminster Hall significance of the population issue. I propose that we move to a needs-based formula, and that was the Tuesday 18 January 2011 Committee’s unanimous, cross-party conclusion, which was supported by its Conservative, Liberal Democrat, Labour and Cross-Bench members. I think I can assure [JIM DOBBIN in the Chair] the hon. Gentleman that I absolutely want to reflect the higher need that is clearly evident in Wales and parts of Scotland so that we are totally fair. The evidence is that Funding Formula we are not doing that now. The situation has become Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting unfair, and that is a danger to the Union. be now adjourned.—(Miss Chloe Smith.) Let us see what the man after whom the formula is named has said. Speaking of the formula’s creation in 9.30 am 1976, he said: Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con): I am “I just wanted to get through every day without too much grateful to Mr Speaker for allocating me this important trouble.” debate. It is a particular pleasure to serve under you, He also said: Mr Dobbin. “I do not consider it is successful. I do not think it is fair.” I have wanted to make this speech for a considerable He added: time. As a member of a governing party with a bold and “I thought it might last a year or two before a government reforming agenda across large parts of Government, I would decide to change it. It never occurred to me for one hope that that spirit of boldness will also be applied to moment that it would last this long”, this issue and that it will be allied to a keen sense of or more than 30 years. Those who pray in aid the fairness and justice so that we do the right thing by Barnett formula should be well aware that its author every part of the United Kingdom. thinks that it is time we moved on to something that is I speak as a committed Unionist and I want every fairer and that is built on a needs basis. part of the United Kingdom to be treated absolutely fairly as far as central Government funding is concerned. (Arfon) (PC): Will the hon. Gentleman However, the formula that currently allocates funding refer to the Holtham commission, which looked at the between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland nature of the funding for Wales? It identified that Wales for large parts of public expenditure is broken. Even the has been underfunded historically to the tune of about man after whom it is named, Lord Barnett, wants to get £300 million per annum. rid of it and speaks against it. It really is time for us to look at it, as I shall try to show in my remarks. Andrew Selous: I will most certainly refer to the The formula dates back to 1976. It was decided, Holtham commission. What the hon. Gentleman says is across certain parts of Government spending, to allocate quite correct. He should have no fear about what I 85p in every pound to England, 10p in every pound to propose. The Holtham commission came to the same Scotland and 5p in every pound to Wales. That was conclusion as the House of Commons Justice Committee done on the basis of population figures from the mid-1970s. report in July 2009 and the excellent House of Lords Those figures have never been changed; all that has Committee report, on which there was a good debate on been changed over the years are the annual increments. 11 March 2010. The commission really said the same We are therefore working on a population baseline from thing as those reports: we need to move to a needs-based the mid-1970s that bears no relation to the significantly formula. increased population in England or the increased population The money given to Wales and Scotland is distributed in Wales. At the same time, the population in Scotland on a needs basis across the Principality and Scotland. It has remained broadly static. In the excellent debate on should not, therefore, be too difficult to put together a the Barnett formula in the House of Lords, Lord Sewel, needs-based formula to allocate the money. That is a Labour peer, referred to difficult to argue against, and as I said, leading members “a series of fantasy populations”—[Official Report, House of of the Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties came Lords, 11 March 2010; Vol. 718, c. 381.] to the unanimous conclusion in the House of Lords Committee report that we should move to such a formula. Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/ Co-op): I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing I want to spend a little time explaining why the this important subject for debate, but his comments situation is unfair for England. We sometimes look at about the starting point for the Barnett formula give the the Barnett formula as if it is just about Scotland, Wales impression that the 85%, 10% and 5% figures reflected and Northern Ireland. As a committed Unionist, however, the populations of the different parts of the UK at the I think we also have to remember the English. I do not, time. Surely, that was not the case. Even at that stage, in any sense, say that apologetically; I just think we need the formula reflected the different needs in the different to be fair to everyone, because poor people in England parts of the UK by giving Scotland and Wales a slightly have similar rights and should also be treated fairly. higher allocation per head. Population did not define Council tax in Scotland has been frozen for a considerable the breakdown in different parts of the UK at the start. number of years. Many of my constituents have worked hard all their lives to buy the home they love, but some Andrew Selous: The formula was fundamentally on a are forced to sell their homes because they cannot population basis. If the hon. Gentleman reads the excellent afford the council tax, which goes up year after year. Is report by the House of Lords Committee on the Barnett that fair? 185WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 186WH

[Andrew Selous] not invidious to cherry-pick ways in which citizens in Wales may be better off, when they are less well off I also think of business rates. I represent a town in other respects? The hon. Gentleman mentioned the called Dunstable, which recently had 56 empty shops in relative deprivation in Wales and Scotland. That is its high street. Many shopkeepers told me time and time reflected in the empirical evidence, which shows that a again that business rates were driving them out of needs-based, deprivation-based formula would afford business. Hon. Members might therefore be interested more money to Wales than we currently enjoy. to know that business rates in Scotland were reduced by 80% for businesses with rateable values of up to £8,000 Andrew Selous: I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is in 2008-09 and scrapped entirely in 2009 and 2010. with me in wanting a needs-based formula. He is right Business rates were cut by half for businesses with a that the evidence of the Holtham commission, and the rateable value of up to £10,000 and by up to 25% for evidence that the House of Lords took, suggests that those with a rateable value of up to £15,000. Of course, Wales would benefit from such a formula and that if it I commend the Minister for recognising that unfairness is to be applied fairly there should be some reduction in as far as England is concerned and for bringing some what Scotland currently receives. relief, although it is not as much or as generous as I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is up to the elsewhere. I thank her and her Treasury colleagues very Welsh Assembly Government and the much for what they have done, but there are businesses to spend their money as they see fit. What is not fair and that would still be operating in my constituency and right is the allocation of money in a block grant on a paying tax revenue to the Treasury had we applied that bust formula from 1976, whose author no longer thinks relief earlier and more fairly across the United Kingdom. that it is fair, when there is clearly in many cases such an Since 2002, personal care in Scotland has been given imbalance between what the English and the Scottish without reference to need, whereas it is time limited and can be offered. That is an entirely reasonable case. not available in the same way in England. Prescription charges are much lower in Scotland and will be abolished Mark Lazarowicz: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? completely by April. They do not exist in Wales. Why should people in the same circumstances in England Andrew Selous: I will, but I want to finish my list—I have to pay prescription charges? On hospital car parking have not got to the end of it yet—of what we do not get charges, it costs £2.50 per visit to park at my local in England. It is really worth listing, because even the hospital. If someone on a low income has a family Library did not have a comprehensive list. I was adding member in hospital for a long period, those charges will to it as I went along. be significant. Again, such charges are not paid in Scotland. Certain cancer drugs were available earlier in Scotland than in England—we are just catching up. Concessionary This year, the situation with tuition fees and education bus travel is more generous in Scotland. People can go maintenance allowance really was the straw that broke on long-distance journeys there and take a companion, the camel’s back for a lot of people in England. English if they are disabled, which they could not do in England. Members have been receiving lots of letters about education I think that hon. Members who are fair and who maintenance allowance and the fact that it is to be consider the issue dispassionately and want to do the replaced by a discretionary grant; but of course it is right thing by every part of the United Kingdom will being kept in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. agree that we cannot allow the situation to continue if There will continue to be no tuition fees for Scottish we are committed Unionists. students and there will be no increase in the fees for Welsh students, while those of English students will double. Therefore, in a few years’ time a Scots graduate, Several hon. Members rose— a Welsh graduate and an English graduate, working in the same company and the same office, perhaps having Andrew Selous: I cannot remember who wanted to done similar courses, and earning the same salary under intervene earlier; I give way to the hon. Member for the same taxation system, will be paying back hugely Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz). different amounts of debt. How are we supposed to explain to our constituents that that is fair? My children Mark Lazarowicz: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman are already giving me considerable grief on the subject, for giving way again, but it is an important debate. I as they look to the university fees that they will no welcome the tone in which he presents his case, even if doubt pay in a few years. It is frankly not fair, and I defy I disagree with some of the conclusions. Would it not be any Scottish or, indeed, Welsh Member to say that the better if he were to mention not only the areas where system is fair to the English. residents of Scotland and Wales appear to get a better deal, but those where, because of a choice made under Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I am pleased that devolution, spending is less? There is now a debate in the hon. Gentleman got this important debate, and Scotland and Wales about university funding and the pleased to be able to contribute a little. There is a effects of different tuition fee levels on university fee one-word answer to the question that he has raised: income. In some areas of health and transport, provision devolution. In the spirit of fairness in which he has is less than in England. It is not right, as my hon. Friend framed his remarks I entirely agree that we need to the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) said, just to move to a needs-based formula, and the Holtham report cherry-pick the areas where Scotland and Wales seem and all the other empirical data we have about Barnett to be doing well, without referring to choices that have point in the same direction. We need to move in that resulted in different consequences, which can be easily direction. I am encouraged to hear a Parliamentary pointed out as examples of relatively lower levels of Private Secretary thinking in such ways. However, is it service than in England. 187WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 188WH

Andrew Selous: I will now move on to what I think we What the Committee in the House of Lords proposed should do about the situation. I am proposing a needs-based was only illustrative. If the Government have other or way of allocating the block grant, reflecting current better ideas, or if colleagues from either side of the populations and needs, which are worse in England in House want to contribute ideas about what the needs-based some cases than in Scotland, and significantly worse formula should include, let us start the debate now. Let in Wales than in some parts of England. That should be us get ideas rolling into the Treasury, so that we can recognised because there is a fair, open and transparent proceed with total fairness. way of proceeding, but at the moment much of what the Treasury does is not transparent. Crossrail, for Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I too congratulate example, was at one moment a UK project, designated the hon. Gentleman on obtaining the debate. I welcome by the Treasury. The next minute it was designated the direction of travel that he has outlined, but I want an English project so that there could be a Barnett to ask about timing. He has alluded to the impatience consequential, and Scotland could get an extra in England, whereas I and colleagues from Wales and £500 million. That may or may not have been right, but Scotland would allude to the shortfall, such as that what was the process? Was it open to transparent scrutiny in education; there is £500 less per child in Wales than in so that people in Wales and England could see that it England. There is impatience about that. The coalition was fair? In one year the Treasury suddenly said that Government have said that in a Welsh context a Calman- there was a £900 million underspend for 2007; that was style commission will be set up after the referendum. allocated to the Scottish budget. That may have been What are the hon. Gentleman’s views on that? Do they correct, but at the moment everything is done deep in reflect that impatience, or is he more on the go-slow the bowels of the Treasury. I do not say that there has track? not been fair play, but there is a need for the process to be more open and transparent. The Treasury is judge Andrew Selous: I am naturally quite an impatient and jury in its own court, in a process that is not open to person, and I want to get things done when I see scrutiny. I do not think that that is right. something that I think is not right. However, we are in difficult times financially, and it will be incredibly difficult Hywel Williams: I agree largely with what the hon. to move from one formula to another in these challenging Gentleman has been saying. I want to point out the times. value of considering not only differences between Scotland, A sensible time scale would be for the Government to Wales and England but the interesting regional differences start doing the work now, setting out how we are to in England. It would be very useful for hon. Members allocate money fairly between England, Scotland, Wales from the north-east, for example, to look at those. and Northern Ireland on a needs basis. Once we agreed Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will refer to them later. on it, there would need to be a transitional period. We cannot get away from that, because we have to do such things fairly and in a way that does not cause undue Andrew Selous: The hon. Gentleman is right. There difficulties in any part of the United Kingdom. are significant differences. I am an east of England MP, and that region has the lowest spending of any region in I would be a happy person at the end of this debate if England. Perhaps that is why I get increasingly angry I had a sense that the Government would move toward communications from my constituents on the matter. setting up a system that allotted funding on a needs basis, and that they would agree to create some sort of Having outlined the problem and some of the unfairness, body to do that, and consider a transitional period. I want to talk more about what we can do. I direct my The beauty of that is that by then we would have got hon. Friend the Minister to the excellent conclusions of through these difficult financial times, and more money the House of Lords report of 2009 on the Barnett would be available as we started to implement such a formula. The report looked across the world to Australia—I system. It would also make the transition easier for the declare an interest in that my mother was Australian, parts of the United Kingdom that did not benefit. but that does not affect whether I think the Australians have a fair and good solution, from which we could rose— learn. In Australia, the Commonwealth Grants Commission David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con) is an independent body charged with the responsibility of dividing the cake between the Australian states and Andrew Selous: I shall give way for the last time; I territories. It is an advisory body to the federal Government have been generous in giving way, but I need to move on and its impartiality is completely accepted by the states in order to let others speak. and territories of Australia. I understand, and agree with Government colleagues, that we are not looking to David Mowat: I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. set up extra quangos. If my hon. Friend does not want What he says about the time scale is important, particularly an extra quango my proposal is that we should add the vis-à-vis Scotland. Next week the Scotland Bill is coming specific responsibilities in question to the remit of the before the House. In my opinion, it will enshrine the Office for Budget Responsibility. However, if she says current level of the Barnett settlement for ever, as it will that that is too much for the OBR, it is not fair to tell me link the Barnett amount that Scotland receives directly that we should not have an extra quango. I would be to the level of income tax paid in Scotland. As a happy to go either way, with whichever option seemed consequence, future reforms will be difficult. I am not most sensible and would cost the Government less. We sure that time is on our side. could add the responsibilities to those of the OBR, but if we wanted a separate body we could have one. Given Andrew Selous: I hear what my hon. Friend says. He the figures involved—the sums of public spending—it refers in part to the Calman commission and the fact would be a serious body. that the block grant in Scotland will be reduced to 65% 189WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 190WH

[Andrew Selous] She also spoke of “an inevitable conclusion that change is necessary.”—[Official and that Scotland is to raise 35% of its income through Report, House of Lords, 11 March 2010; Vol. 718, c. 371-404.] tax-raising powers given under the Bill. What I am I thank all Members who wish to contribute to the talking about will still apply, however, as 65% of Scotland’s debate, and I shall listen with interest to what my hon. public spending will be allocated. Everything mentioned Friend the Minister has to say in response. in this debate is relevant, although we can argue about the time scale. I shall listen carefully to what the Minister Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): A number of hon. Members has to say. I have outlined a possible way to proceed. wish to speak. I remind the House that the wind-ups I touch again on the different needs that the House of will start at 10.40 am, so I ask Members to keep their Lords Committee found. They are four: we should contributions brief. move to an assessment method that takes account of the age and structure of the population, as a significant 9.56 am number of older people require extra spending; we need to consider low incomes; we should take account of ill Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con): It is a health and disability; and we should consider economic privilege to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. weakness. All of us would probably have some sympathy Before the debate started, I forewarned you that I may with those four indicators. There would be value in have to leave early because of my Select Committee setting up an independent commission, as it would responsibilities, and I apologise for that. allow people to make representations, and extra factors I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South could be taken into account to deal with the particular West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this situation in Wales or Scotland. Indeed, it has been done debate. I recognise and support the spirit in which he successfully in Scotland. has raised this sensitive matter, which affects all the The House of Lords debated the Barnett formula nations and regions of the United Kingdom. He has report on 11 March 2010. Lord Moser, a former head underlined the point that we have a reforming Government government statistician who was appointed by a previous and that bold steps need to be taken to come up with a Labour Government, said: formula that will serve all the nations and regions in a positive and constructive way that is dependent on “We emphasised repeatedly that, especially in the hands of an independent body, backed by thorough and on-going research, need. The debate has been going on for some time in this was an eminently practical task. It is just not true to say that Wales. Even before the evidence was as stark as it is it is difficult or too time-consuming or too complex—that is not now, there was a view that relative deprivation in Wales so.” meant that the Barnett formula was not serving Wales He was talking about the task of setting up a new well. needs-based commission. A mathematical formula, such as the Barnett formula, offers significant advantages. The first advantage is that Baroness Hollis, a distinguished Labour peer, spoke it offers a guarantee of funding, particularly to devolved of the differences in funding for personal care: Administrations, who need such a guarantee to plan, “What could be more unfair…than an elderly, frail person in which prevents, for example, the Welsh Assembly East Anglia receiving perhaps only two-thirds, in public expenditure Government, or the Wales Office on its behalf here in terms, of what an equally elderly, frail person in Scotland receives, Westminster, becoming involved in horse trading year even though the person in East Anglia is poorer, because we are hanging on to an unfair population basis of estimating subsidy?” on year. Such a mathematical formula obviously offers that guarantee. The second advantage is that in times of Lord Newby, a Liberal Democrat from Scotland, limited or reduced spending, the Barnett formula offers said: protection to the devolved Administrations. “In terms of gaining public acceptance for a conclusion which On the other hand, there are significant disadvantages will inevitably mean funds being taken away from Scotland, it is with the formula being so far out of date, and I regret interesting to note that within the Lib Dems we had quite a spirited discussion with our colleagues in Scotland when we first the time that it has taken to get to this point. The proposed this, as you can imagine. In the end, the argument that previous Government should accept their responsibility fairness is the only long-term sustainable basis for allocating for leaving it so long. Despite Lord Barnett’s strong expenditure won the day, as I am sure it will in future as this case view that the formula needed reform, it was not accepted. is made more widely.” He plainly said that the formula was unfair. I note that Lord Davies of Oldham, then a Labour Treasury Minister, wound up the debate by saying of Hywel Williams: My memory of that slightly pre-dates the report’s authors: the hon. Gentleman’s. I draw his attention to numerous debates over many years when Front-Bench spokesmen “They have created a framework within which the disadvantages of the Barnett formula are such that a reforming Government on both sides used the formulation, “The Barnett formula would need to look at them.” serves Wales well.” The hon. Gentleman should concede that both Conservative and Labour Governments were That brings me back to my opening remarks. I am staunch defenders of the Barnett formula. My party, of proud to be part of a reforming Government, and I course, took another view. hope that we will not be dilatory in this matter. Baroness Noakes, then our shadow Treasury Minister, Alun Cairns: I shall square that point in a moment, said in response to the debate: but I do not want to let the previous Government off “In principle, this is something which my party supports. We the hook for their delaying tactics in resolving the also support the transparency advocated by my noble friend Lord matter because of its sensitivity. Whereas Lord Barnett Trimble.” plainly said that it was not fair, the then Chief Secretary 191WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 192WH to the Treasury said that it was fair enough. That The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) has certainly was not good enough for Wales. I regret to say said that, historically, Wales has been underfunded by that despite 13 years in office, the previous Government £300 million, but that fails to understand the convergence did not have the opportunity to resolve the formula. that has taken place over the past 13 years or more. That £300 million is the current level, and it would have Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): It is important to been a much smaller level in the past. point out that back in 1999 and 2000, Wales, on average, A very good point has been made about Crossrail. received £125 for every £100 in England. In 2010-11, Despite the view that the Labour party in Wales is Wales receives around £112 for every £100 in England. taking at the moment, we can compare the spending on Therefore, the Welsh treatment under the Conservative Crossrail with that on the Jubilee line. The spending Government is significantly better than it was under the on the Jubilee line was Barnettised, but the spending on Labour party, when there was a significant decline in Crossrail by the previous Government was not, which funding for Wales. highlights another way that Wales was treated unfairly Alun Cairns: I will come on to the convergence in a by the previous Administration. It is far too easy to moment. None the less, it is a point that is well made point the finger, when a real debate is taking place on and that should be recognised by the Labour party. It is satisfying the needs-based requirement. important not to confuse freedom of devolution, which My closing points—I am conscious of the time—relate enables nations to pursue their own policies, with funding. to the way forward. All the nations and regions need to There is naturally a link, but because there is a policy, engage in the debate about this extremely sensitive area. subsidy or generosity in one particular area, it should Those who are allied with the Scottish National party not then be used as proof or evidence of over-funding are a block not only to any form of debate—that when we consider the whole context. position is natural, because of the way in which Scotland would lose out—but to changes elsewhere in the United Owen Smith: I was rising to make precisely that Kingdom. As the hon. Member for Arfon builds up a point. Does the hon. Gentleman fear, as I do, that the strong relationship with the Scottish nationalists, he hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew must recognise that that is blocking reform in Wales, Selous) will not be happy when we have a needs-based because every part of the UK needs to engage in this formula, because those examples that he cherry-picked debate if we are to come up with a needs-based formula earlier will still exist? The politics of envy, which underpins that satisfies all the nations and regions of the United some of his concerns, will still play into this debate. Kingdom. Alun Cairns: That point only demonstrates the hon. Gentleman’s misunderstanding of the spirit and tone of 10.6 am the debate presented by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire. My hon. Friend identified the Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab): I am grateful to differences, but recognised that that freedom needs to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. I will take place when we consider devolution. The obvious make a few brief remarks, because I, too, am on the things in Wales are free prescriptions and—this one has Select Committee to which the hon. Member for Vale of focused attention of late—tuition fees. To those hon. Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) has referred. I must leave Members who are critical of the Barnett formula because early, for which I apologise. it is advantageous to Wales, I say that our NHS waiting I welcome today’s important debate. Although the lists are much longer and that the cancer drugs fund issue has been debated many times in this House—there does not apply, so there are considerable drawbacks, was a recent debate in the House of Lords, which and they need to be taken in the context of the whole produced an excellent report that is well worth reading—it funding settlement. It is far too easy to pick a policy is worth debating again. The issue was not resolved by that has been prioritised by the Welsh Assembly the Labour Government. I accept that we were tardy in Government without accepting the areas that may not addressing the issue. Once we saw the firm evidence in have been prioritised. Health is the obvious one. In the Holtham report on convergence—the so-called Barnett England, for example, there is a guarantee of no cuts in squeeze that resulted in a reduction in the relative NHS spending, whereas in Wales there will be real-term benefits to Wales over the past 10 to 15 years—we cuts and financial cuts to the health service. That point responded to that at the last election. The previous should be recognised in the debate. Labour Government were keen to see fair funding for My hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Wales, and we went into the last election fighting for Bebb) has referred to the positive contribution of the that pledge. Had we won, we would have delivered fair Holtham commission. The two volumes of the Holtham funding. I hope that this current Government will be commission can be brought down to a few figures. At true to their word and look to deliver a different form of the moment, Wales receives £113, which will drop to funding for Wales and the other devolved nations and £112, for every £100 that is spent in England; Scotland regions of the UK, and I hope that it will be needs-based, receives £120; and Northern Ireland receives £124. Holtham as the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew concludes that Wales needs £115, which is marginally Selous) has said. more than it is currently being awarded; Scotland needs My caveat—I did not mean to personalise the debate £105, which is a significant reduction from its £120 earlier in referring to the politics of envy—is that at now; and the figure for Northern Ireland is not far from some level, the hon. Gentleman’s underpinning concern what it already receives. That is the first needs-based is that parts of England do not benefit. In particular, he assessment that has taken place. If that is not accepted points to the fact that historically the east of England, in general terms, it is certainly an exceptionally useful which he represents, has featured towards the bottom starting point of where the needs lie. of the league table of public expenditure over a long 193WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 194WH

[Owen Smith] Owen Smith: I agree with my hon. Friend—that is essentially what I was trying to say a moment ago. An period. That is, in itself, reflective of the relative needs arm’s-length independent organisation, which Holtham of the east of England. We have for the English regions, considered—whether it is the Office for Budget as Holtham and others have pointed out, a needs-based Responsibility or whether it is some other body—is an formula. Indeed, one of the conclusions of the excellent excellent idea that we should take account of. House of Lords report is that a quick interim measure would be for Wales and Scotland to go to a needs-based David Mowat: The hon. Member for Edinburgh North formula based on the English version. and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) has said that it is not easy As the hon. Gentleman has pointed out, aspects of to conduct a needs-based analysis, but that does not policy in the devolved nations and regions can ferment mean that it should not be tried. He has raised the issue a sense of envy. When one looks at the responses in the of sparsity in Scotland and the fact that many people Daily Mail and The Daily Telegraph on tuition fees, live in the Western Isles, Orkney and such places, which which range from outrage that the Welsh are doing makes a difference. There is a precedent for such an something different through to incredulity that such a analysis, which was carried out by the Scottish NHS policy can be afforded in Wales, one sees that they and which is referred to in the report by the House of reflect the lack of understanding that persists across the Lords Select Committee on the Barnett formula. The House about the way in which devolution works. cost was about 15% extra for that component of the population. However, the point is that that component Current Government Members, such as the hon. of the population is very small and the overall impact is Gentleman, have highlighted examples of how Wales less than 1.5%. So it is right that that factor is taken into and citizens in Wales appear to benefit financially from account, but it is not material to what we are discussing. the devolution of powers and the policies that are pursued in Wales, whereas hon. Members from Wales have highlighted other areas, such as the health service, Owen Smith: The point that my hon. Friend the where—according to those hon. Members—people in Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Wales are not benefiting. Lazarowicz) has made—that it will be very difficult to introduce a needs-based formula—is valid. The aspects of a needs-based formula that ought to be taken into Andrew Selous: The evidence from Holtham and consideration and the weighting that ought to be placed from the House of Lords Select Committee is that on those aspects individually will not be incontestable. Wales would gain from a needs-based formula. So there So it is easy to bracket them under “deprivation and is no part of what I have said that would cause problems sparsity”, or “deprivation” and some other criterion. as far as the Welsh are concerned. It appears that Within that, there will be all sorts of eminently contestable Scotland is more generously funded than a needs-based notions related to the number of children in a country, formula would suggest, but that is what we need to set the number of older people who are dependent, sparsity up a commission to look into. and all sorts of other aspects, which will be eminently contestable. Owen Smith: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for The simple point that I was trying to make is that that intervention and I fully appreciate that point; I even if we shift to a wholly independent—or ostensibly heard him say very clearly that Wales would benefit. My independent—and wholly needs-based formula, we will point is simply that I fear that in much of the debate on still see divergences and differences between the relative this subject there is a concern that English regions do spending priorities and the relative quantum spent on not benefit where other parts of the UK, particularly individual aspects of public services across different the devolved regions, do. Traditionally English Members parts of the country. That will still fuel a sense of from both Houses have expressed that view, which resentment in certain quarters, when parts of the country underpins and unfortunately colours debate on this are perceived as doing better than others. I therefore subject. caution that we would not all be happy with a needs-based formula and I suggest that the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire— Mark Lazarowicz: Is it not the case that moving to a needs-based formula would receive universal support, Andrew Selous: We would be happier. would be value-free and would not allow any political interference is an illusory hope, because even with a needs-based formula the question arises of how one Owen Smith: “Happier”—okay, well perhaps we would assesses needs? For example, how much importance be “happier”. I, too, would be “happier” if we went to a should be given to rural diversity and to the length of needs-based formula; I will concede that much. communications in Scotland? If a high priority were In conclusion, I simply add that at last we agree given to ferry links to the Shetland Isles and Western across this House that a fairer funding formula ought to Isles, there would obviously be a high result there. When be pursued and that Barnett has seen its day. I therefore it comes to funding that depends on age, there are some commend the Government for considering how we parts of both Scotland and Wales where unfortunately, might do something important about it in the future. because of ill health, some people do not live to an older age, which would not be reflected in the formula. The idea that we can move to a value-free system with a Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): There are still three hon. needs-based formula is somewhat illusory. Will my hon. Members who want to contribute, so I remind hon. Friend comment on that? Members of the time. 195WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 196WH

10.14 am Therefore, there is now a growing need to address the Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con): I will be very brief, fact that the Barnett system is out of date and is Mr Dobbin. Thank you very much for calling me. It is a creating a real problem. That situation has been made pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning. much worse by the implications of the Barnett squeeze; I also want to apologise in advance for the fact that I because of the way that the system works, as spending might have to leave before the conclusion of the debate, was increasing, the allocation to Wales on a pro rata because of Select Committee responsibilities. basis was not increasing at the same rate. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South That brings us to another important point. It has West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing this been highlighted by Holtham, and I do not think a debate. In my view, the debate has been very positive single Member of this House would argue against this and the spirit in which it has been conducted is something fact: most analyses of the Barnett formula seem to that we should be proud of, because it has not been a indicate that, if we try to move to some needs-based case of people complaining about the unfairness of the formula that is not dissimilar to the one used in England, funding system in relation to England. Instead, the the effect will be to increase the funding to Wales debate has highlighted real concerns about the fact that slightly—even if it is only a slight increase, it would be the current system is possibly unsustainable, because we most welcome—but there would be a significant difference are creating anomalies that are very difficult to justify in to the funding for Scotland. the long term. That is an issue that we need to think about very I concur with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of carefully, because as my hon. Friend the Member for Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), inasmuch as the fact that Vale of Glamorgan pointed out there is currently a some of the examples that have been given about the block on consideration of the issue. Quite clearly, the differences, for example, between Wales and England in Scottish Parliament is not looking to implement any terms of spending is in danger of confusing the issue of changes, because the advantage is given to it by the Barnett with the actual effect of devolution. As a Member current system. from north Wales, where one can get to Cheshire in less Nevertheless, in my view there is a real issue here, than an hour along the A55 on a good day, I am very which is the continuation of the happy relationship aware of the fact that, for instance, the decisions made between the four component parts of the United Kingdom, by the Welsh Assembly during the past 12 years have because ultimately an ongoing sense of unfairness, which resulted in spending on education being significantly has been highlighted from an English point of view, is less per head in Wales than in England. That is a real not compatible with the sustainability of the Union. concern for people in north Wales, because we can There is a genuine need to consider coming up with a actually see the differences between spending in Cheshire new formula that will replace Barnett and that will try and the spending in north Wales. That is an effect not of to be fairer to all parts of the United Kingdom. Barnett but of the decisions that have been made and the priorities that have been set by the Welsh Assembly. The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) made As I said in my contribution to the debate on the issue the point that no new system would necessarily result in of student funding, I personally feel that the decision everyone being happy, but that is not in itself an argument made by the Welsh Assembly, within the Barnett block against sticking with a system that was implemented in grant, in relation to funding student fees in future is 1976. Ultimately, it is important that the present actually an attack on the Welsh university system, which Government take the issue in hand, to ensure that we will be disastrous in the long term for Wales. Again, have a system that is fairer to all parts of the United however, that is a decision that has been made within Kingdom. the funding formula. It is important when we have this Finally, I need to make a point about the Welsh debate on the funding formula to be aware of the fact context. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) that, on some clearly beneficial spending priorities is a Plaid Cymru Member, and his party has certainly established by the Welsh Assembly, there are counter- been very vocal about the unfairness of Barnett. I think arguments, in terms of examples of spending decisions that it is fair to say that when the Holtham report was made in Wales that are actually quite damaging. published there was genuine disappointment among There are things that we need to be aware of about some members of Plaid Cymru that the highlighted Barnett. In the Welsh context, there is concern that shortfall of £300 million was significantly lower than there has been a real change in the way that Barnett some of the figures that had been bandied around. works in Wales. I have already highlighted the fact, in Shortly after the publication of the report, I took part an intervention, that in 1999-2000 Wales received on in a debate in Bangor university with the former president average about £125 for every £100 spent in England. of Plaid Cymru and, in view of the evidence that had That figure has reduced to about £112 for every £100 been collected, he could not argue that Wales was spent in England and obviously that reduction has been extremely hard done by under the current system. highlighted in Wales regularly. Therefore, I genuinely applaud the Welsh Assembly for commissioning the Hywel Williams: Did I hear the hon. Gentleman say Holtham report, because the argument that Wales was that the possible £300 million increase in funding for underfunded and was being unfairly treated in some Wales was minor? way was one that we had heard a lot about. I think that the Holtham report gave a very secure background to Guto Bebb: It is minor in the context of the unfairness that debate and explained that Wales was, in comparative that has been claimed by the hon. Gentleman’s party in terms, being underfunded, if one takes into account the the past. Currently, we spend about 112%, compared to needs of Wales. That point has been acknowledged in the Holtham recommendation of 115%. In view of the this debate by my hon. Friend the Member for South fact that in 1999-2000 we were spending 125% compared West Bedfordshire, so it is a genuine issue. to 100%, I think that my description is fair. The important 197WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 198WH

[Guto Bebb] it. The issue has been possibly an obsession of my party for many years, and so I am glad to see other people point is that it is odd, to say the least, to hear a sharing that obsession—or disability. nationalist party, which now advocates independence, I should like to focus briefly on the Barnett formula arguing very strongly for a needs-based formula that and on Wales, rather than on the English regions, takes into account the need for transfers from England because there are clear implications for the English to subsidise the situation in Wales. I would fully subscribe regions, as I have already said. There are great differences to that. One of the hard lessons that I have learnt in life between the funding for the regions within England, is that Wales is part of the United Kingdom, and as a and the debate on that can be informed by looking at result we accept that there can be transfers between the what has happened in Wales for many years. We have regions and nations of the United Kingdom to reflect already heard that the Holtham report points out the their different needs. I find it odd that a party that requirement for Wales now to have a needs-based advocates breaking that link can also stand up and assessment. In fact, such assessments have been needed argue for increased funding from the English taxpayer, in Wales for many years, and they are already carried to subsidise the situation in Wales. out in some English regions. The Barnett formula was developed in the ’70s and implemented in 1978—not in Hywel Williams: I do not want to engage in what 1976, as has been said. It was based on historical might be an internecine struggle, given the hon. Gentleman’s spending and the size of the population—basically on previous membership of my party and his strong advocacy the success of Ministers in extracting money from the of our policies, many years ago before he jumped ship— Treasury pre-1978. It is a converging formula, and we apparently on the matter of the currency. Does he have seen it in operation for many years. Between 1999 accept that the Holtham report makes a three-step and 2007, public spending in England rose by 33%, and recommendation: first, a floor is established; secondly, in Wales by 28%. That is the nature of convergence: there is then a needs-based formula; and thirdly, which public spending rose, but less quickly in Wales. is the point that the hon. Gentleman mentions, a differential taxation system for Wales is considered? The snapshot that he presents as our policy is certainly not our policy; Mark Lazarowicz: The hon. Gentleman’s point needs it is one point on the journey. to be underlined, because although many people suggest that the Barnett formula gives an unfair bias towards Scotland and Wales, it is in fact designed to level their Guto Bebb: The problem with the hon. Gentleman’s expenditure down to the English average. It is not in any point is that it would require the agreement of the sense a formula that protects Scotland and Wales. Scottish Parliament and we would have to look at the matter on a UK-wide basis. He is perfectly right to highlight my background regarding the single currency. Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman makes a good The crucial issue was that one of the arguments against point, but my point is that it is a converging formula, a single currency was that it was difficult to see how and that Wales is gradually losing out. Jumping forward transfers from Germany to Greece, for example, to to one of my later points, Holtham called for a floor to subsidise that currency could be justified. We now see be established, and the right hon. Member for Neath that situation, and it has been highlighted in a book (Mr Hain) referred to that before the election. We have by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham consistently called for public sector funding in Wales to (Mr Redwood). My view is that we can still justify be based on needs, and our calls have been ignored and transfers within the United Kingdom to the different rejected. I do not know how many times I have heard and to the nations, on the basis that the right hon. Member for Neath, and current Government we have a shared heritage and a shared belief that we Members, saying that the Barnett formula has served are part of the United Kingdom. I was of the view that Wales well. Joel Barnett himself said, in a statement on that shared heritage would not be there at European 11 January 2009: Union level, and we might see that issue tested to “I only meant the Barnett formula to last a year, not 30…One destruction this year. I do not want to see the situation of the problems is that it was not based on need. It determined on that we have in the United Kingdom, with transfers the basis of population how much more or less funding Scotland within the Union, destroyed by a clear unfairness in the should receive when cuts or increases in public spending were system. Wales will probably benefit from a needs-based being made across the United Kingdom.” system, but we certainly need to look at the issue during I note, however, that the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy this Parliament because I think that otherwise there will and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) used his appearance at be a growing disenchantment with the system on the the Wales Labour pre-election conference last year to part of the English taxpayer, and that would be bad for call Barnett a needs-based formula. It is, of course, no the needs of people in Wales. such thing. The report produced by Gerry Holtham has received Jim Dobbin (in the Chair): Hon. Members might be the support of all the main political parties in Wales, interested to know that Lord Barnett was a predecessor and I am glad there is a measure of cross-party consensus of mine. I did not realise that my constituency had such this morning. The report calls for a floor to prevent an impact on government funding. further erosion of Welsh funding, for the reform of the formula to make it a needs-based one, and to at least stop, if not necessarily correct, the historical underspend 10.24 am on Welsh services. It then calls for differential taxation Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC): I very much welcome to be considered, to ensure that the this debate, and I congratulate the hon. Member for take greater responsibility for their own spending. As I South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on securing have noted many times in speeches in this place, the 199WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 200WH

Welsh Government get a very large amount of money are determined for our local authorities. Some 20% of and are responsible for raising not a single penny piece the south-west is rural, and it is a well-known and of it, which is, I think, a fundamentally bad situation. well-researched fact that our rural deprivation is high, The underspend in Wales has been recently estimated which carries a heavy cost: 22% of people in the south-west at around £300 million—a significant sum—and there live on the state pension, the highest number in the has been a knock-on effect on the private sector, as I am country as a whole. We all know the impact of the elderly sure the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) in terms of local government spending. In the south-west, knows. The public sector in Wales is so large and is such 10% of people are over 75. I am pleased to say that they a significant purchaser of goods and services, that if it have a high life expectancy, but unfortunately that does were to have more money there would be a knock-on not help the coffers. effect on the private sector. Because the formula reflects We were fortunate this time around. Devon county a historical position rather than an assessment of need, council suffered a spending power cut of only 1.77%; in it has put Wales in a fundamentally weak position. We Teignbridge, my district authority, it was 5.89%. For are funded on the basis of proportional Government that, I am grateful, but looking forward, the issue must spending in England and Wales, or in Great Britain, be addressed. As I said, Departments have used Barnett depending on the circumstances. Spending in Wales has when considering health funding and other devolved been largely subject to changes in Government priorities sums of money, and as a result, the south-west has on an England, England and Wales or GB basis, so we fallen down the league tables. In 2009-10, the south-west follow those priorities. We now have a Government in was allocated only £42 billion across Departments, the Cardiff who cut the cake as they see fit, but of course third lowest regional spend in England. It has caused an the size of that cake always depends on other matters. awful lot of problems. We have 12.5% of the population, Hospital parking and prescription charges have been yet only 12% of the spend, even before aggravating referred to, so I will not pursue those issues given the factors are considered. time. Children in Devon are particularly underfunded. We How to define need has been discussed somewhat. I are 146th of 152 in the spending league tables. It has point hon. Members to the Holtham commission’s report, been calculated that in health care, we are £12 million which suggests six steps based on such considerations short of the figure that would have been fair. We have as the number of old and young people, rurality and so the lowest spend per head in England on transport on. The point was made that that might be complex, but infrastructure, yet we are extremely rural and 14% of that does not mean that we should not do it. I point the population have no car. I urge the Minister to hon. Members to an interesting example: the Welsh consider seriously the request for a needs-based formula, index of multiple deprivation, which has replaced the as it is clearly the way forward. I commend the proposal Townsend index of poverty.The Welsh index is complicated, made by my hon. Friend the Member for South West but it is very effective. It can be done. Bedfordshire. The Government have been clouding the issue by considering Wales’s funding as something that can be 10.35 am postponed until the recession is over. It must be examined David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): This has now, for good reasons of governance in Wales and to been an important debate, focusing more on Wales than eliminate the reasonable feelings that the hon. Member on Scotland. There is a disparity in Wales—the figure of for South West Bedfordshire mentioned. Will the Minister £300 million has been mentioned—but it is dwarfed by tell us when the Government intend to start considering the Holtham estimate of the disparity in Scotland, the Holtham inquiry’s recommendations for Wales and, which is £4.5 billion. Many English Members of Parliament, more broadly, for the rest of the UK? particularly those from the north, are being forced to go back to their constituencies and defend an austere 10.31 am budgetary environment. It is tough to do so when £4 billion a year over and above the needs-based amount Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): This is a is being sent to Scotland. timely debate, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) I have two quick points to make; I will finish by for securing it. I will keep my comments brief to assist 10.40. We use the term “needs-based” a lot. The real one more Member to speak. issue is not need; it is population movement. We could continue to use the Barnett formula of 1976 if we Public funding effectively comes in two chunks. The adjusted it for the population changes that have occurred largest is spending through central Departments; the since then. It would be a simple arithmetical adjustment. smaller comes through the grant formula for local It is true that a needs-based analysis could be complex, government. The emphasis today has been on the but that change is not required. We need only to adjust application of the Barnett formula to the local government the formula for relative population movement, and it grant, but the reality is that Barnett has had a creep would eradicate two thirds of the current imbalances. effect and has become the default mechanism for making decisions even in mainstream Departments. Reforming Hywel Williams: The hon. Gentleman is coming to Barnett is about reforming it as it is applied not just in the point that I wished to make. It is a converging local government but elsewhere. formula, so there are issues other than population change The particular problem in my south-western constituency to be considered. of Newton Abbot, in Devon, is that we are one of the geographically largest regions in the country.Consequently, David Mowat: It is not wholly a converging formula; I we have huge transport challenges, but the sparsity do not agree. For example, if the baseline population is effect is not taken into account when funding formulae not adjusted in arithmetical terms, it means that if the 201WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 202WH

[David Mowat] issue is complex and that it is worthy of debate. However, although it is easy to criticise the operation of existing population of Scotland fell to one, that person would mechanisms, it is more difficult to come up with an get all the money. We do not change it for population, ideal solution. The hon. Gentleman stated that the which is indefensible. As I said, I regret the fact that Barnett formula is broken, and he has argued passionately there are no Members from Scotland here, unless I am for a needs-based formula. He is waving a hefty document misinformed. at me. If he would like to pass me a copy, I will sit down and digest it with great enthusiasm at some point. Andrew Selous: There are two. The Barnett formula has been criticised over the years and, as the hon. Gentleman has said, its inventor, David Mowat: What defence of the situation is made Lord Barnett himself, has suggested that we might need in Scotland? I have heard two defences. We have heard to move towards a needs-based formula. The hon. the sparsity defence; I have also heard the defence in Gentleman has highlighted arguments criticising the terms of oil revenues. It is argued that somehow, the formula, but it is easy to conflate and confuse two £4.5 billion Barnett imbalance roughly compensates issues: what happens in terms of spending within a Scotland for the additional oil revenue that it has had to devolved nation as a consequence of devolution, and give up to the Union or whatever. That is a poor what is a direct consequence of the Barnett formula. He argument. highlighted the differences in devolved areas in relation to council tax, prescription charges, tuition fees, education Mark Lazarowicz: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? maintenance allowances, hospital car parking and so on. However, I should like to question his comments on David Mowat: I will finish my point. Other affluent the differences in relation to bus travel. He said that it areas of the United Kingdom are liable for relatively was not possible in England for the carer of a disabled higher levels of income tax, and we do not necessarily person to travel for free with them, but that is certainly expect those areas to have better services. not the case in my local area. Perhaps it is up to local Finally—I would like the Minister to address this authorities to decide, but in my area people get free bus point in her closing remarks—I am concerned that travel if they can show that they are in the company of the Scotland Bill, as it is currently configured, will someone for whom they are caring. institutionalise the Barnett formula for ever by creating The issues raised by the hon. Gentleman remind us of a link between income tax levels in Scotland and current the argument about whether devolution is about deciding levels of Barnett settlement. In other words, that extra the size of the cake or about allocating who gets which £4 billion will be linked for ever to income tax levels piece of the cake. As my hon. Friend the Member for in Scotland. What that means in broad terms is that in Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) said, order for the Scottish income tax base to make up the Scotland misses out in other areas as a consequence of £4 billion that Scotland receives over and above a needs policies on prescription charges and tuition fees that basis, additional Scottish income tax of between 12p differ from those in England. Moreover, the hon. Member and 15p in the pound would be required. That will for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), who is no longer never happen. present, pointed out that waiting lists are far longer in For the same reason, it will be difficult to review the Wales as a consequence of decisions taken, using formula significantly after the link to income tax has devolutionary powers, to spend money elsewhere. He been created. If that is the case, we seem to be stuck said that, as a consequence, there will be real-term cuts with the imbalance, which means that every constituent in the health service—in the cancer drugs fund, for of mine—my constituency of Warrington, in the north example—in Wales. of England, is not overly affluent—receives some £5,000 We have to accept that our establishment of the less over the lifetime of a Parliament than his equivalent devolved Parliament and Assemblies means that the in Scotland, which would not be the case if the funding basic principle of devolution will lead to differentials in were needs-based. That is not to say that England and spending. It may create a sense of unfairness, but I do Scotland should be the same. Holtham did not say that. not think that that is particularly germane to the issue The figure that Holtham used and that currently exists of the Barnett formula and its grant. is 120% of the English settlement in Scotland, but 107% would probably be a fairer figure. That is not the same, but it is a lot closer than it is now. I am concerned that if Andrew Selous: I understand what the hon. Lady is the Scotland Bill passes unamended, we will institutionalise saying and I do not disagree with her that how the the matter for ever, which, frankly, will be bad for the Scottish Government and the Welsh Assembly Government Union. spend the money they are given is up to them. I have no quarrel with that. However, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) has 10.40 am said, if Scotland is getting £4.5 billion more than a Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab): As ever, needs-based assessment might imply, does she not Mr Dobbin, it is a pleasure to serve under your understand that that can fund additional services that chairmanship. It is also a pleasure to see so many hon. are not available to her constituents and mine? Members present. Some have left to attend a Select Committee, but this has been a good debate in which a Kerry McCarthy: As I have said, the Barnett formula lot of people have had an opportunity to participate. is not perfect. We have established the Calman commission The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew and the Holtham commission to look at the more Selous) is passionate about the issue and has raised it on detailed issues of how devolution works and how we a number of occasions in Parliament. I accept that the fund matters. 203WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 204WH

Mark Lazarowicz: As we have already heard, the there has been a call from the devolved Assemblies for Barnett formula is essentially based upon historical more powers, which is going to throw the issue into the levels of spending, which means that the relatively high spotlight again. It is time to re-visit it. levels in Scotland and Wales reflect the decades of argument between Government Departments making Hywel Williams: Is the hon. Lady, as a Front-Bench the case for higher spending in those areas. It has not spokesman for the Labour party, saying that the Barnett appeared from nowhere. Does my hon. Friend agree formula is serving Wales well now? If that is not what that it is a question not only of having to assess needs, she is saying, what is her argument for not changing it but of the impact of Government spending? For example, as soon as possible? there is no doubt whatever that the presence of Government in London is a major boost to the London economy. Kerry McCarthy: The argument for not changing the That does not apply to the Barnett formula, but it formula as soon as possible is exactly as I have said. At means that London benefits from Government spending a time when spending cuts are hitting Welsh people, as in a way that other parts of the UK—not just Scotland well as people throughout the rest of the UK, and when and Wales—do not. changes are afoot and the Welsh Assembly is arguing for it to be given similar powers to those of the Scottish Kerry McCarthy: I agree entirely. Statistics are thrown Parliament, we have to look at all those things in the around about public spending, its impact and who gets round. There is no immediate solution or magic bullet the most. It is not just about Government block grants, that will sort the matter out. I accept the case made by but about things such as welfare spending and the my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd, who feels impact of locally raised funding, such as council tax, that a needs-based formula would serve the UK better. which is a separate issue. I think that people sometimes I am conscious of the time so, to sum up, I shall just forget that. say that we accept that the Barnett formula is not The hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire argued perfect and that the situation needs to be reviewed. that either a separate body or the Office for Budget However, we would be very worried if there were a rush Responsibility should administer and oversee the towards jettisoning the Barnett formula overnight. We introduction of a needs-based allocations system. I must deal with the matter in a measured, considered agree that, if we are to move towards something like way and with an acknowledgment that devolution is at that, now is not the time to introduce radical change the heart of the matter. There are devolved powers and overnight. This is a difficult time economically, and the we cannot expect Scotland and Wales to conduct their Scotland Bill, which is making its way through Parliament, spending and financial affairs in exactly the same way will have a major impact on the tax-raising powers of as the rest of the UK. the Scottish Parliament. There are decisions to be made about whether it will take up those tax-raising powers 10.50 am and the impact that would have on its spending. The impact of the comprehensive spending review settlements The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Justine on the devolved nations is also an issue. Greening): It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin, particularly given your constituency’s links I accept—I think that there is cross-party consensus to the debate today, which became apparent during the on this—that we need to examine the case for moving discussion. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member towards a needs-based formula. Some of my colleagues for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) on initiating have said that, but it has to be done carefully. I do not an excellent debate. All hon. Members have made some want to return to line-by-line negotiations with the articulate well argued points and I will do my best to try devolved nations whenever there is a spending round. to respond to them during the next nine minutes. Given There has to be a formula of some sort. I think that my so many points have been made, if I do not cover all the hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) issues, I will write to my hon. Friend afterwards to said that a needs-based formula would be eminently amplify them. contestable. It would be difficult to establish which needs should be taken into account and which needs I shall start by being frank. As my hon. Friend is should not. aware, the Government’s priority is to tackle the fiscal deficit. Although we do not have any current plans to Andrew Selous: Does the hon. Lady think that we are review the Barnett formula, it is also fair to say that we so much more pathetic than Australia? Queensland and accept it is not written in stone. Therefore, we look with New South Wales are at each other’s throats to get more interest at debates such as this one. The current statement funding, yet they have a settled procedure which they all of funding policy that we issued in October 2010 after respect. Does she really not think that we can aspire to the spending review was done in consultation with the and achieve that in this country? devolved Administrations. Before I get on to some of my more detailed comments, I shall state a problem and Kerry McCarthy: I am saying not that it is impossible then an observation about the issue. The problem is to achieve, but that it is difficult. The Barnett formula that, as the former Chief Secretary to the Treasury of was established in the 1970s and people have said that the previous Government said, there is no money left. the implication was that it was intended to be in place My observation on the debate is that I do not think for only a year. A Labour Government operated under anyone is arguing for a change in the Barnett formula the Barnett formula for 13 years, but a Conservative on the assumption that their local community will come Government operated under the same formula for 18 years, out of it with less money. so this applies to successive Governments. Although Those are the two challenges we face. Hon. Members there were criticisms, they were unable to find the ideal are absolutely right to make the case for the funding solution to replace it. Devolution has bedded in and that their local communities need. The challenge is to 205WH Funding Formula18 JANUARY 2011 Funding Formula 206WH

[Justine Greening] to 15p of income tax. In theory, the Scottish Government could reduce their income tax levels by 12p and go ensure that we get the most out of the constrained pot down to a needs-based analysis and it would be hard for that we have and to ensure in the future that the formula us subsequently to change that. works effectively, whether that is at the Barnett level or at the England local government level, not just in terms Justine Greening: I understand my hon. Friend’s point. of the absolute cash that goes in—there has been much However, in many respects, the point of devolution is to discussion about cash per head and various Government allow more local decision making to take place across policy areas—but critically in terms of what comes out. the different devolved Administrations. Despite today’s debate, we should never lose sight of the Just to finish off the answer to the question asked by importance of discussing the quality of policy alongside the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), clearly the quantity of money that is going in. The cautionary there will be a referendum in Wales on whether primary tale is that the Barnett formula, which Lord Barnett legislative powers should be held by the Welsh Assembly said was only ever intended to be a short-term measure, Government. We will wait to see the outcome of that has actually had a longevity that no one anticipated. It referendum before deciding how to take forward some is worth while Ministers of today and tomorrow pondering of the points of the Holtham report. the fact that, even if we think the decisions we take On some of the specific issues raised by my hon. today are short term, they might ultimately prove to be Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire about far more long term than we realise. transparency, the chapter and verse of the funding formula is in the current statement of funding policy. I Hywel Williams: Is the Minister saying that underfunding admit that it is not the most riveting read in the world, in Wales will be addressed only when the economy but it does explain clearly how the various settlements grows and when we can afford to do so in a way that we are reached. The funding approach is agreed in consultation currently cannot? Does she accept that that is irrelevant with the devolved Administrations of the rest of the to the fact there is unfairness now? United Kingdom. On my hon. Friend’s suggestion about the needs-based Justine Greening: I shall make two points about the formula, I can absolutely understand why people and hon. Gentleman’s intervention. First, Wales is well funded. hon. Members think that such an approach would be Secondly, let us consider how the Government have better. A needs-based formula allocates local government approached the spending review. It turns out that, because spending across English local authorities, but many of how the formula works, the decisions we took to hon. Members and different communities consider it to protect the NHS budget and the education budget in have flaws. That illustrates how there are no easy ways cash terms and in terms of schools has meant that the in which we can reform local government funding, Welsh Assembly Government have probably received a whether in relation to local government across English more generous settlement out of Barnett than they local authorities or in relation to devolved Administrations. would have if the previous Administration had stayed The common ground we have in the points made is that in office. any changes should absolutely be approached with real On the points raised today, clearly there have been a caution over a period of time. number of inquiries and reports on the Barnett formula Of course, the Treasury has clear control over the and the devolution settlement. One such review is the process, as it deals with public spending issues. However, Calman report on Scotland. As we have heard, the there are avenues through which disputes can be remitted Scotland Bill is passing through Parliament and my to the Joint Ministerial Committee. Therefore, the Treasury hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South (David is not always judge and jury. There is absolutely a Mowat) is right to say that the legislation will devolve process through which disputes can be resolved if the some of the financial management of income tax to the Treasury cannot do so. On the involvement of the Scottish Government. However, I can assure him that it Office for Budget Responsibility, that organisation is a will not fix the Barnett formula in stone for the future. forecasting rather than a policy-making body. My hon. A further aspect to the Barnett formula is the Holtham Friend is right to point out that other countries, such as commission, the findings of which illustrate the point I Australia, have a different approach, but they come made at the start of my speech. The Holtham commission with pros and cons. Yes, that authority may be independent, considered how a needs-based formula would work for but there is no Minister such as me to stand in Parliament, Wales and said that such a formula would mean Wales listen to the issues and respond to them democratically got more, which would put more funding pressures on and with some sense of accountability; Australia does settlements for other areas. That shows that there are no not have that in the same way. There are still problems easy answers to the debate. with how that authority operates and questions about whether it allocates funding fairly. Such an approach is David Mowat: On the point I raised about the Scotland not without its challenges. Bill, it does not explicitly say that the Barnett formula In conclusion, although we do not plan to change the can never be changed in future. The point I was making Barnett formula, we will continue to consider all aspects is that, once we link a baseline Barnett assessment to of public spending, how they operate and how effective the level of Scottish income tax, it becomes extremely they are. As I said, the points made today were highly difficult to change. The £4 billion additional money relevant and interesting, and I have no doubt that the that Scotland gets through Barnett is equivalent to 12p debate will continue over the coming years. 207WH 18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 208WH

Royal Mail Privatisation “What is absolutely important in this new approach is that there will be no closures whatsoever.”––[Official Report, Postal Services Public Bill Committee, 9 November 2010; c. 5, Q6.] 11 am That call has been made repeatedly to the Government in the past few months. I ask the Minister again today Katy Clark (North Ayrshire and Arran) (Lab): It is a whether he agrees with that statement by Paula Vennells great pleasure to see you in the Chair again, Mr Dobbin. and that a central plank of the Government’s policy is I am pleased to have secured this timely debate on the that there should not be post office closures, and whether implications of the proposed privatisation of Royal he will undertake to ensure that the size of the network Mail for our post office network. There will, of course, will remain at 11,500 post offices, as opposed to outlets, be many repercussions if the privatisation goes ahead, which is something that I will come on to in more detail but the subject of this debate is, perhaps, the aspect later. about which the public are currently most concerned. When those questions have been put to Ministers, the No other country in the world has separated its mail response has been an explanation of how the post office service from its post office network, and I hope that the network operates—that, as we all know, post offices are Minister will accept that there is genuine concern that run by private individuals who may decide that they do this privatisation will have a negative effect on an already not wish to continue in the business for a whole range of vulnerable post office network. Many of the issues that reasons and that such decisions may not be in any way I will raise today have already been raised with the connected with Government policy or, indeed, the Government during the proceedings of the Postal Services framework in which those people are operating. We all Bill in this House, and I suspect that they will be raised appreciate that, but we are asking the Government to again in the Lords. I have given the Minister notice of confirm that their policy will be to create a framework what I will say today—I will ask him many questions that enables existing post offices to continue. It would that have been put to the Government but that have not, assist if we had a specific answer on why legal guarantees as yet, been answered adequately. would not be helpful. Surely the Minister agrees that it would be helpful to the post office network if he came We heard many warm words from the Government forward with a legal guarantee on post office numbers, during the progress of the Bill about their commitment given the huge concern. If he is not willing to do so, will to the post office network, and, indeed, an announcement he explain why it is such a priority to get a quick of a short-term subsidy. However, my contention is that sale—probably to a foreign buyer—but not a priority to those warm words will not be sufficient to protect our find a way to give legal guarantees to our post office post office network and that the legal framework that network? the Government are putting forward with a privatised Royal Mail, which will have a legal duty to its shareholders We also know that the Government are being pressed to maximise profits rather than any duty to the general by a wide range of organisations to guarantee the public, provides no guaranteed protection in law for the inter-business agreement between Royal Mail and the post office network as we currently know it, and will put post office network. The National Federation of our post offices at risk. SubPostmasters, the Communication Workers Union and Consumer Focus, as well as a whole range of other We have read in the media that some fear that the organisations, have made that call and, in particular, are privatisation will result in 4,400 post office closures. asking that a 10-year contract be entered into by Royal That figure comes from the fact that the current access Mail to ensure some kind of security for at least that criteria mean that we would have a post office network time. Consumer Focus has said that it is concerned of 7,500 post offices, and we also know that approximately about how few safeguards the current legislation proposes. only 4,000 post offices are currently considered to be Andy Burrows, its postal services expert, has said: financially viable. There is, therefore, a great deal of “There are few safeguards to keep that contract in the long concern that privatisation could lead to the closure term. It’s entirely conceivable—though it seems an odd thing to of post offices. There is also concern about whether the suggest—but several years down the line you could have a post standard rate for stamps will be able to survive in a office network where you cannot undertake mail transactions. It uniform way throughout the country, and that there would be for Royal Mail to determine which operator—whether could be a serious deterioration of the service provided, it was Post Office Ltd or Tesco or whomever—to offer mail particularly in rural communities, deprived urban areas services and there would be no requirement for stamps or parcels. and in any part of the country where the postal service You could see a scenario where Royal Mail looked to cherry pick so Tesco, say, could meet its requirements in urban areas and the is expensive. There is a concern that a privatised Royal Post Office could pick up the slack in rural areas where there isn’t Mail will cherry-pick the business and that the post anyone else. And that has very serious implications in terms of office network will be left with what was left. the viability and integrity of the network because urban areas During the passage of the Bill, the Government were typically make money.” asked to guarantee the size of the network. The Minister That really goes to the nub of the concerns that many will be well aware of those calls being made to him. We people have about the future of our post office network. currently have 11,905 post offices. The access criteria Will the Minister respond to the allegation, which laid down by the previous Government would, according has been made again and again, that many of those who to Post Office Ltd, mean that there would have to be a run post offices will view the future of work in a minimum of 7,500 post offices. The Government have privatised Royal Mail to be so uncertain that they will said, in the course of proceedings, that they are committed be more likely to leave the business? The Government to the post office network and would like to see a must respond to that allegation. There is huge uncertainty network of 11,500 post offices. In her evidence, Paula about what will happen if Royal Mail is privatised, Vennells, the managing director of Post Office Ltd, which is bound to lead to individuals making business said: decisions that will take them out of the trade. 209WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 210WH

[Katy Clark] they do not accept that local post offices would be on a stronger footing if the post bank work had gone ahead. Will the Minister say what steps the Government I also understand that the Department for Work and would take if a privatised Royal Mail decided to award Pensions green giros contract is under threat. Will he the work to supermarkets rather than to post offices? I explain why DWP work is not being channelled to the want to know whether the Government would allow Post Office? that to happen. If Royal Mail were to decide not to The reality, of course, is that the historic link between award work to post offices but to another organisation Royal Mail and the Post Office means that Royal Mail or range of organisations, would they allow that to go supports post offices in a range of different ways. The ahead? Royal Mail chief executive has said that, in effect, Royal My final request to the Minister—again, it has been Mail subsidises the post office network by £150 million put to the Government on many occasions—is that we a year through the central provision of services alone. use the opportunity of the Postal Services Bill to guarantee Obviously, if the two organisations were to separate, the access criteria in law, so that there is more certainty that would be another way in which funding and support about the future. I have already referred to the view that would be taken away from the network. the access criteria guarantee only 7,500 post offices, but The previous Labour Government put substantial even that is subject to uncertainty given the legal framework. funding into the post office network, and this Government I ask for all that because our post office network is have announced a £1.34 billion subsidy, which I welcome, already so vulnerable. More than 150 post offices closed although I have been told that it will not increase the on a long-term basis over the past year, and 900 are up level of annual social subsidy to the post office network. for sale. Over the past 30 years, the number of post However, my greater concern is that the funding is not offices has almost halved, and the trend has been guaranteed beyond 2014-15, and, even more, that the consistently downwards, irrespective of which political Government’s stated policy is that the subsidy will party or, as now, combination of parties is in power. reduce over time. That must give us great concern. I do As someone who represents many deprived mainland not know whether post offices will be able to survive in communities, many small towns in areas of unemployment the future. and rural island areas, it is clear is that the public are Does the Minister expect that the number of post well aware of the vulnerability of the post office network. offices or outlets will shrink over the coming period? They are rightly suspicious of the Government’s assurances. Also, does he believe not only that the number of post That may be why people express a great deal of concern offices or outlets will reduce but that the quality and about the proposal to privatise Royal Mail whenever extent of the service operated at post offices will shrink? they are asked about it, whether it is through opinion The Government’s plans for changing the network over polls or in other ways. The fear is that post offices will the next four years include replacing 2,000 post offices be at risk, particularly in deprived and remote rural with “essentials” or “locals”, which will provide a more communities. The Government may say that there will limited range of services, often from a venue such as be no closure programme—indeed, they have said that—but a shop. I understand that the scheme is designed as a that does not mean there will not be post office closures. pilot, but many of us will already know from our We know that the majority of work for post offices constituency experience of examples of a Crown post comes from either Royal Mail or the Government, but office closing down and the service moving into, perhaps, business from those providers is not secure. Royal Mail a local newsagent. It is clear that our constituents feel provides post offices with about one third of their work, that the quality and range of the service has decreased, and we are told that it is unthinkable that it would not even if it is simply because there is less space in the post use the network. However, it is clear that many competitors office area. There is less ability to take in wheelchairs—the may be interested in the work, including supermarket conditions are more cramped. That is a great concern to chains, PayPoint—they are the two most obvious options— our constituents. and a range of other providers. Surely it is a real possibility that a privatised Royal Mail would tender Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): I congratulate the hon. the work, either in whole or in part, to the cheapest Lady on securing this important debate. There is great provider in the future. potential for a more flexible approach to the format of The reality is that because of how Royal Mail will be post office that people want. I have one in my constituency constructed legally, it will be under an obligation to that is in a convenience shop. A point has been opened ensure that it gets best value for its shareholders. There in the shop itself, so people do not have to wait for post will be nothing to make it use post offices to the same office opening hours. The number of open hours is extent. As a private company, its duty will be to its phenomenally greater, so everyone who wants to cash in shareholders, which would put the work that many post their lottery winnings goes to the shop. There are great offices currently rely on at risk. It is only common sense opportunities, and not everyone needs all the services or to think that more post offices would be in greater wants them at specific restricted times. financial difficulty and that more of them would find it difficult to justify their existence. Katy Clark: There may be some benefits in certain We have heard a great deal about alternative sources circumstances. The example that I was thinking of is a of work for post offices. Indeed, the previous Labour local one. The small town of Kilwinning in my constituency Government were doing a considerable amount of work previously had a spacious Crown post office that was to develop a people’s bank, which was dropped by this heavily used by the local community. When the service Government. Will the Minister explain why the Government moved into a newsagent, the quality of service experienced are not proceeding with some form of post bank or by constituents became much worse. However, there people’s bank? We would like an explanation as to why may well be other situations that are success stories. 211WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 212WH

One of the concerns at present is that many of the operate in a manner that will undermine our post office proposals would actually mean a reduction in the number network. Will the Minister please respond to the points of hours that postal services will be available in some made today and over the past few weeks? communities. That is the point that I have put to the Minister. There may be exceptions where the service 11.23 am improves, but my contention, and the evidence from the work that has been done, is that the trend is for the Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con): I thank range and quality of services to diminish. The reason the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy for that is the difficulty in making post office services Clark) for securing an excellent opportunity to talk pay, which is why we are having this debate. For public about the future of the wonderful post offices that we policy reasons, post offices are essential parts of our all love and need and upon which our constituents—in communities, and we should be finding a framework particular, some of our small businesses—are dependent. within in which post office success would be most likely. However, I am surprised that the hon. Lady raised the issue of post offices when the Bill we are talking about Related to that, a great deal of concern has been and have been debating recently is about Royal Mail. expressed about the network size being affected by the The debate is meant to be about Royal Mail, rather than extension of outreach services, which are often provided about post offices, but I was encouraged by the response by a van and often mean a substantial reduction in the that the Government gave, indirectly, with regard to hours a postal service is available in a specific community. post offices, effectively guaranteeing that we would be Instead of having a post office, which would be available able to retain post offices, which we all value. I was all week, a van might come once or twice a week, for a absolutely delighted. relatively small period. Those vans, or many of the The other measure in the Bill, which the hon. Lady facilities to which the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely did not mention but which I find exciting, is the concept Burt) has referred, often do not provide the whole range of mutualisation. It is a huge opportunity. of postal services that might have been available in a more traditional post office. I ask the Minister to respond Katy Clark: There have been many opportunities to the considerable concern expressed about the quality over the past few weeks to make all sorts of points of services provided by some outreach services. about Royal Mail privatisation. The debate today is about the implications of Royal Mail privatisation on The Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, for instance, the post office network. There are genuine concerns. made submissions to the Government after taking evidence Does the hon. Lady share any of those concerns? in Scotland on such issues. An extension of such outreach facilities leading to a continuing deterioration of service Anne Marie Morris: I thank the hon. Lady for her is a concern. I have to declare an interest, because of the comment but, to be honest, hearing her discussing the kind of constituency that I represent. I have many concerns about the future of the post offices was very remote rural areas in my constituency, in particular the reminiscent of the concerns felt by Opposition Members island of Arran, the kind of area for which outreach under the previous Administration. Our concern in services are often proposed. As we know from the opposition, when there were mass closures of post evidence given by members of the public and by hon. offices, was that the Government of the day had failed Members, often the view is that the level of service is far to recognise that such post offices were crucial to less good than that which was previously provided. communities and were providing a social service as much as anything else. Huge concern has been expressed about the universal service obligation and whether a postal service could be I am delighted that both parties supporting the coalition maintained in all parts of the country, no matter how Government are determined to ensure that post offices remote. What is perhaps more at risk is the continuation have a bright future. I do not share the hon. Lady’s of the universal service as a six-day service everywhere concern about the future of post offices; they are far and of a uniform affordable price throughout the UK. better off under the new coalition Government than Can the Minister give an assurance on that continuation they ever were under the previous Administration. and whether there will be legal protection? The proposed The hon. Lady made some points about universal legislation, similar to current legislation, allows Ofcom delivery, but I am very heartened. It is important. to waive the universal service obligation given exceptional The Government look on it as fundamental and will geographic or other conditions. Will the Minister outline retain it. when that opt-out would be used? What guidance would Turning to post offices, we must remember that be given about when Ofcom is allowed to say that the 99% of the population live within three miles of a post universal service obligation need not operate? office. In the grand scheme, that is not a bad position to be in. The Government subsidy to non-commercial post If the Postal Services Bill becomes an Act, we are offices is currently £150 million, but I am pleased that it creating a legislative framework in which it would be will increase to £180 million in the next financial year. quite possible and highly likely that Royal Mail will move its work in the future. MPs of all political parties Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): Is the hon. Lady suggesting are concerned about their local post offices and wish that a three-mile access criterion would be sufficient? In them to survive. I urge the Minster to ensure that we other words, as long as someone was within three miles organise our postal services in a way that enables them of a post office, that would be acceptable. Is that the to have the business to make that a realistic possibility sort of network of post offices that she envisages? in the future. In particular, I ask that he uses the opportunity of the legislation to ensure that we have a Anne Marie Morris: I thank the hon. Lady for her legal framework whereby post offices can continue. comment. Clearly, we need to have as good access as we There is huge concern that a privatised Royal Mail will can for every individual. Therefore, we need to look at a 213WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 214WH

[Anne Marie Morris] believer in regulating and legislating; I believe in the free market. It is right to empower communities and businesses, good service and a good distribution of post offices. but not to tell them how to do what they do. The sort of figures talked about, and where we are now In conclusion, I would be delighted to see the with the number of post offices, will give a good service. Government look carefully at what post offices can do, What I would like to comment on, and will come to and then empower them so that it happens, perhaps by in my contribution, is what more those post offices looking at how we can improve the number of Government could do. services in post offices. At the moment, people cannot always sort out vehicle taxation at post offices or pay (Staffordshire Moorlands) (Con): I am their utility bills—they might not know that they can interested in what my hon. Friend says about the provision pay in a post office because it does not say so on the of post office services not only to individuals but also to back of the bill. There are things that the Government businesses. Businesses in my constituency are concerned could do to ensure that where it is financially sensible, about how the post office network can help them in the more services are provided through the local post office current economic downturn. Does my hon. Friend have network. There is much that could be done by the any thoughts on that? business community, and I commend to the Minister Anne Marie Morris: My hon. Friend makes an excellent the suggestions made by the Federation of Small Businesses. point. When we are looking at our small micro-businesses to lead the drive to put the economy back on its feet, post offices have a key role. In my constituency, in the 11.32 am village of Broadhempston, there is a delightful situation. Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): It is a pleasure Local volunteers run a small community shop—absolutely to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Dobbin. I too an example of the big society—in which they have congratulate the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and effectively ensured that the post office can be retained. Arran (Katy Clark) on securing this important debate. The challenge—the point made by my hon. Friend—is We both have rural constituencies that contain islands, to ensure that we can grow that service. The shop and post offices are important in such rural communities. currently opens in the morning between 9 and 12, but if it opened in the afternoon, it would really be able to Post offices are important in the communities they offer services to local businesses. I have been looking at serve. No other retail outlet has such a range of shops that and championing it. Looking at such post offices that cover the rural parts of the country to the same being able to support small businesses must be the way extent as the post office network. Post offices provide an forward; my hon. Friend’s point is extremely well made. important social function and assist vulnerable people Post offices are at the heart of the community. With with help and advice. I am pleased that the Government regard to concerns expressed in all parts of the Chamber, have recognised that by making a big investment in the post offices need to be able to provide more, not less, to post office network, and I am delighted by the guarantee individuals and to small businesses. Indeed, the Federation of no closure programme, which is a complete reverse of Small Businesses has said that it would be an excellent from the position of the previous Government. During idea to have a dedicated business counter or business the previous Parliament, debates such as this happened advertising. Could not such post offices provide meeting practically every fortnight as hon. Members tried to rooms or wi-fi hot spots? As discussed, we could be stop post offices being closed. This debate takes place in moving towards providing banking facilities. a completely different atmosphere as we have a Government who recognise the importance of post offices and back The opportunity for post offices is enormous, and I that up with investment. am delighted that they have that opportunity. The big society and the overall push to help small businesses For post offices to stay open, not having a closure should make that opportunity a reality. Nineteen per programme is not enough. It is essential that as small cent. of small businesses visit post offices on a daily businesses, post offices remain profitable for the sub- basis, and 47% visit twice a week. That is excellent news. postmaster or sub-postmistress. Changing lifestyles mean As I said earlier, mutualisation could be the way to that what was once one of the core businesses of post make things possible. I have found a real will to work offices—people taking their pension book to collect together in the community, whether that is the business their pension—is no longer so important. When people community or the community within a geographical retire, they are more likely to have their pension paid area. Mutualisation is a real opportunity and it may be directly into their bank account, as that is what currently the solution to the position in Broadhempston. happens to the vast majority of people of working age. Therefore, it is inevitable that business will decline. One Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab): I am a supporter postmaster put it to me succinctly when he said, “Many of mutualisation. Many people, however, are concerned of my customers are dying off.” When people retire they that from mutualisation comes demutualisation. Would do not collect their pension at the post office to the the hon. Lady be in favour of building a way of preventing same extent, and that service must be replaced by other demutualisation into any plans for mutualisation, as far Government work. as that is possible? People are wary of mutualisation given some of the experiences of the past 20 years It is essential that Departments, the devolved concerning building societies and other mutual Administrations, local government and public bodies organisations. give work to post offices. Otherwise, in the long term we will see a gradual decline. There is no immediate threat Anne Marie Morris: I understand the hon. Lady’s to post offices, but unless the Government provide point, but the devil is not in the legislation but in the commitments to more work, in 10 or 20 years’ time we detail and particular circumstances. I am not a great will see the gradual decline of post offices. 215WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 216WH

I am pleased to note the Government’s stated policy they have to go all the way to Ballachulish or Inveraray of giving more work to post offices, but it is vitally to find another PayPoint outlet. It is therefore very important that every Department follows that policy important both for social reasons and for access reasons with action. Often, giving a contract to the Post Office that the contract remains with the Post Office. I hope will cost more than giving it to another provider, but that the Minister will go away from today’s debate and that is because of the social benefits of post offices. Post knock on the door of the Secretary of State for Work office staff will take time to explain things to vulnerable and Pensions to tell him just that. people and give them help and advice that they would not often get in a supermarket or filling station. One David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): Does my can imagine the impatient queue at a filling station if hon. Friend agree that it is extraordinary that the people wanted to pay for their petrol but the assistant Government on the one hand are giving much-needed was taking time to give advice to an elderly person. subsidies to the network—£1.3 billion over four years; Such advice is provided in a post office, but I cannot see £50,000 per location per year—yet on the other hand it happening to the same extent in a filling station or are taking away some of the contracts? No other supermarket. I hope that Departments will not be tempted shareholder or business would act in that way. It just is to save money from their budgets by taking contracts not joined up. from the Post Office. Mr Reid: I hope that the Government will not react in Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con): I agree with the way that my hon. Friend fears. I share his concerns, what the hon. Gentleman says but when it comes to the however. What worries me—I hope that these fears are crunch, sometimes a local post office will close, no ungrounded—is that there may be silo thinking within matter how unfortunate that is. One of the biggest areas the Government. Clearly, in these very difficult financial of growth is in supermarkets, whether metro stores or times, with Departments having to make huge savings, small stores. If a new supermarket contains a post it must be very tempting for Ministers to go for the office, would that not keep some of the services, even if cheapest contract, but I hope that they will resist that they are in a supermarket? temptation, that there will be joined-up thinking in the Government and that the Post Office will be given work Mr Reid: I agree with my hon. Friend; there is no because of the good service that it provides. I hope that problem with a post office being located in a supermarket that will be the case for social reasons and because of and I was not saying that was a bad idea. My point is the access provided by having a network that is unmatched that a different type of outlet—PayPoint, for example— throughout rural Britain and on many of the islands in could be in a filling station but not in a dedicated post my constituency. office that is part of a supermarket or filling station. In Let us consider other Government work. When I tour such situations, a person will not receive the same help my constituency, as I do every summer, one bone of and advice as they would in a post office located in a contention that keeps cropping up in the rural parts supermarket. I have no problem with a post office being of it is vehicle excise duty. Vehicle excise duty can be located in another outlet—in my constituency, almost renewed only in certain post offices. I understand that every post office is within a shop, filling station or that is because the Department for Transport decided supermarket. However, I would be concerned if the the number of outlets that it wanted. However, it means contract for benefit cheques was given to PayPoint, for that people living in rural areas must go into the town if example, because if an elderly person is in the same they want to renew their car tax at a post office. Clearly, queue as people who are waiting to pay for their petrol, the temptation, then, is to use the internet, and if they might not receive the same quality of advice and people do that, the work is lost to the Post Office help. A post office in another outlet is great, but if the completely. facilities are simply part of that other outlet they will My understanding is that the computer system is the not offer the same social benefits to the customer. same in all post offices, so there seems to be no reason The benefit cheque contract of the Department for why vehicle excise duty cannot be paid in any post Work and Pensions is for paying pensions and benefits office. Again, I hope that the Minister takes that point to vulnerable people who are considered unable to use away from the debate and has a word with his ministerial the Post Office card account. That contract was put out colleagues in the Department for Transport, so that for renewal by the previous Government and I understand when that contract comes up for renewal, the restriction that the Post Office and PayPoint have bid for it. I hope on the number of outlets can be removed. that once the DWP has weighed up all the factors I also want to refer to the BBC. As we all know, involved, including social factors and access criteria, it during the last Parliament, the contract for renewing will keep the contract with the Post Office. PayPoint has TV licences was taken away from the Post Office and a large number of outlets, including in my constituency, given to PayPoint. When Ministers are questioned on but nearly all those outlets are in towns and it does not that, we just get indignant responses that the BBC is not have the same coverage throughout rural areas and part of the Government. However, it is a public body, islands as the Post Office. and I hope that the Government are explaining to all If the contract were taken away from the Post Office public bodies the benefits of the Post Office and the and given to PayPoint, it would mean that on several of Government policy of supporting the Post Office, and the islands in my constituency, there would be nowhere are encouraging the BBC and other public bodies to use for people to cash the cheques. Also, in the rural areas the Post Office. of north Argyll, there would be nowhere for people to I was delighted with the commitment given during cash their cheques, because although there are plenty of last week’s Report stage of the Postal Services Bill by PayPoint outlets in Oban, once people go outside Oban, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation 217WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 218WH

[Mr Reid] Mr Reid: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his intervention. I agree: I think that the post office network and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston is safe. The attitude of the supermarkets in his constituency and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who is responsible for postal and mine just shows the diversity that we have in services, that Post Office Ltd and Royal Mail would sign Britain. He mentioned space. One thing that my an inter-business agreement for the longest legally constituency does not lack is space; there is plenty of it, permissible period before they become separate companies. but I can understand that in a crowded urban area, the That is important to give post offices time to adapt to situation might be very different. being part of a separate company from Royal Mail. The reason why I came along to the debate this I do not share the concerns of the hon. Member for morning was to say that what is very important to the North Ayrshire and Arran about Royal Mail in the long long-term future of our post offices is more Government run taking business away from post offices. I do not work and the Government acting in a joined-up fashion, believe that supermarkets or other shops could replicate with all Departments being encouraged to give work to what the post office does. Post office staff undergo a the Post Office. I hope that the Minister, in his reply to tremendous amount of training. There is also the computer the debate, will assure us that that is what the Government system. One of the hon. Lady’s fears was that in urban are doing, that there is joined-up thinking in the areas, supermarkets would take over the contract, but Government and that work is in progress to ensure that in rural areas the post office would be responsible. That more Government work is given to post offices, because would mean two separate computer systems and training post offices are in an ideal position to be a front office other staff. I simply do not see that happening. As I said for Government throughout the country. in response to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Weaver Vale (Graham Evans), I see no 11.48 am problem with post offices being located in supermarkets, but I simply cannot see the benefits to a privatised Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD): The hon. Member for Royal Mail of having a different arrangement in towns North Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) has rightly compared with rural areas. Many post offices are located initiated this debate today. It is important that we in supermarkets. In the towns in my constituency, that is ensure that the Post Office is protected and that legislation the norm and I see no problem with it, but I simply such as the Postal Services Bill does not have an undue cannot see a situation in which there would be separate effect. She asked many pertinent questions of the Minister arrangements in towns and villages. and, like her, I look forward to hearing the answers. Having worked for some years on issues within the Nia Griffith: The hon. Gentleman has mentioned remit of the Department for Business, Innovation and training, the quality of post office staff and the different Skills, under its various names, I have attended numerous reception that people may have in supermarkets and statutory instrument Committees whereby the Government garages. Does he not think that it is precisely that type of whom the hon. Lady was a supporter put in subsidies of thing that makes it possible for supermarkets and year after year to support the Post Office. That was high street chains to undercut the price that the Post absolutely right. However, what happened under the Office will probably be tendering at, and that therefore previous Government was that they managed a decline. there is a real danger that the Royal Mail could switch The very important social value of the Post Office has to a cheaper option, which might be a much poorer-quality been recognised. Nevertheless, it has not necessarily service? It may even be a loss leader for some of the big been given the legs to be able to compete in a changing chains. business situation in this country. The new coalition Government are taking a different approach to the Post Office. We have no less desire than Mr Reid: I simply do not see that happening, because the Labour party to ensure the Post Office’s future, but those organisations would have to develop a computer we are trying to adopt a different approach to enable system and train staff. At the moment, in the towns in the Post Office to stand on its own two feet. Several my constituency, the post offices tend to be located hon. Members have mentioned the £1.34 billion that the within supermarkets. I do not see any benefit to Royal Government have committed to protect the network of Mail or a supermarket from developing its own system 11,500 post offices, which we have said will remain. rather than encouraging a post office to be located in That is considerably better than managing the Post the supermarket. Office’s decline. We do not want any more post office closures. We want the Post Office to remain in public Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con): I thank my hon. ownership, unless it goes for mutualisation itself. Friend for allowing me to speak. I find that exactly the The hon. Lady mentioned the inter-business agreement opposite happens in connection with supermarkets. When at a little length. The chairman of Royal Mail has said I was fighting to save a post office near my own home in that such an agreement will be drawn up for the maximum my constituency, the real problem was that Tesco did legal period before any sale. My hon. Friend the Member not want a post office on its premises because it took up for Colchester (Bob Russell) raised the issue in a new too much space. We had to move the post office and clause for the Postal Services Bill. It was argued at some have a community arrangement a few doors down. The length that a long period would benefit the Post Office, essential problem is that supermarkets will not necessarily and I totally agree. Where I perhaps disagree, however, want a post office on their premises. I therefore agree is on the practicalities. We are talking about an agreement entirely with my hon. Friend that the post office network between two commercial companies, which need the is safe and the relationship that it has with Royal Mail flexibility to negotiate an inter-business agreement that will continue. benefits both; if it does not, it will not necessarily hold 219WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 220WH together. There was also some discussion of how such landscape. We do not want to continue giving subsidies an arrangement could be implemented, and the conclusion to the Post Office; we want it to be vibrant, commercial was that it would not necessarily work well under and profitable and to stand on its own two feet. existing EU law. The hon. Lady mentioned the post bank, and I, too, 11.57 am was disappointed that we did not go down that path. David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): I want to However, we have secured the ability for people belonging add just a couple of quick points to what has been said. to virtually every bank in the United Kingdom to conduct transactions. That is a very good second best, To put these issues in context, there were 20,000 post which will at least make sure that the banks start to play offices a decade ago; now, there are fewer than 12,000. ball and respond to the need to be more flexible in The Government have committed to keeping 11,500 of conducting their financial transactions. those open for the next four years. I do not share the confidence of my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll What about the Post Office’s future? My hon. Friend and Bute (Mr Reid) that the network will be stable for the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) mentioned the next decade. Unless action is taken, it will be stable some of the losses that we have seen, as well as some of for only the next four years—that is, for the period of the potential losses. A little while back, the Post Office the subsidy that is currently going through. Although I card account went out to competitive tender. Lord welcome the £1.3 billion subsidy in terms of keeping the Mandelson, who had just been appointed Business network open, 7,000 of the 11,500 post offices that Secretary, stopped that straight away.I thought, “Brilliant.”. remain are loss making. Unless that is fixed, the prognosis We really cannot afford to lose the Post Office card cannot be positive. We have 7,000 loss-making post account in that way. Like my hon. Friend, I hope that it offices, and that is with the inter-business agreement in will continue. place. It is worth telling Opposition Members that. The issue is not the IBA, but sustainability over the medium Sheila Gilmore: The hon. Lady mentions the Post term. Office card account, and those who are active in promoting Will the Minister answer two questions? I want to financial inclusion have suggested that introducing more know more about the modernisation programme that functions into the Post Office card account might be will be put in place over the next four years, which one way of assisting people who do not have access to involves something like £350 million. I also reiterate the mainstream banking. Another issue, which is much point that Members on both sides have made about discussed, and about which I have heard a lot of discussion joined-up thinking in the Government. It is not sustainable since I arrived in the House in May, is the possibility of that we are, on the one hand, investing millions of linking credit unions with post offices. I have to say that pounds in trying to make the network better, albeit in there has been more discussion than actual tying things ways I am not sure I fully understand, while Departments down, and I understand that there are cost issues, but are, on the other hand, tendering business in a way that does the hon. Lady agree that those two additional no commercial organisation would. I have heard EU functions would be useful for post offices and contribute legislation being used as an excuse, but I do not accept to the financial inclusion agenda? that and think that the argument should be tested. I do not intend to reiterate the types of Government business Lorely Burt: I certainly agree that it is important that that are being removed or that could be removed, but it we extend the range of services available to people who is anomalous that so much work is potentially threatened, do not have a traditional bank account, and the while on the other hand we are spending £50,000 per Government are actively considering how that can best location, per year, to keep post offices open. be done. I certainly applaud the work of credit unions, although I am not entirely sure whether they have sufficient coverage and continuity to form a national [MR PHILIP HOLLOBONE in the Chair] service at this stage. However, the Government are I shall be particularly interested to hear from the actively considering these matters, and we are doing all Minister, in relation to the modernisation programme, we can to reach a practical solution on increasing about who is accountable for its success and what the financial inclusion for those who are unbanked. measures of its success will be. In particular, what is his The hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie estimate of the number of post offices that will be in Morris) described all sorts of different ways of introducing profit after the four-year period has elapsed? At the flexibility, and the Government are fizzing with ideas moment, the number is 4,000. We are to spend £300 million about how we can be more flexible. We can adapt to the on modernisation. What number would he, at this stage changing commercial landscape and to the internet. My when the money is being committed, expect to be viable hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute mentioned after the modernisation programme? The corollary to vehicle excise duty licences, and I am sorry to say that I the answer to that question is what level of subsidy the am guilty of using the internet to renew mine, because it Government and the Minister expect to be payable after takes five minutes. The point, however, is that there are four years to maintain, for the purpose of argument, many other functions that post offices can carry out; 11,500 post offices. they do not have to exist in their traditional format to deliver a postal service to their customers. 12 noon I am very hopeful that some of the pilots that are Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I congratulate my hon. being undertaken will prove successful. It is good that Friend the Member for North Ayrshire and Arran schemes are being piloted, because we can iron out (Katy Clark) on securing this debate on a very important some of the problems that might otherwise ensue. We topic. Her worries and concerns are shared by many will take the best ways of responding to the changing hon. Members on both sides of the House, as we saw 221WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 222WH

[Nia Griffith] Nia Griffith: If the hon. Gentleman looks carefully, he will see that there is much flexibility in the Bill about from the number who attended and participated on what can be changed by the regulator and where things Report in the debate on the amendment to guarantee a can be moved to, so the guarantee is not robust. 10-year inter-business agreement. Returning to putting more robust access criteria in Post offices are at the heart of our communities and the Bill, if that does not happen consumers will have to are well loved by the people they serve. Hon. Members travel much further to access Royal Mail postal services, will remember the postcard campaign lobbying MPs to and inevitably those who have least access to transport keep the Post Office card account; many were contacted will miss out—those who do not have cars and those by more constituents on that issue than on any other, who are served by an infrequent bus service or by no before or since. They received cards from constituents bus service at all. A reduction in the number of access who used Post Office card accounts, and from people points would also have a negative impact on small who did not have one but who realised the value of the businesses in rural areas that make frequent use of the facility to other members of the community and the parcel service and whose costs, both in fuel and time, account’s value to the post office network, because of would increase significantly if they had to travel many the work it brought in, directly and indirectly, through extra miles to use postal services. There is nothing to increased footfall in post offices and increased business stop the Government including in the Bill that vital for the corner or village shop where the post office was guarantee for consumers. Only a simple guarantee of a situated. number of access points similar to the current number Consumers and sub-postmasters alike recognise that of post offices would ensure that consumers would any drop in post office business or footfall could have continue to have access to the same sort of availability an impact on the economic viability of the post office or of counter services as they enjoy at present. village shop. Yet the Government are complacent about the potential loss to the post office network of some Mr Reid: Legislating for a specific number of post 37% of its current business. The loss of all or even some offices does not help, because they could all be moved of that business will inevitably mean a dramatic reshaping into cities. The problem is writing the requirement for a of the post office network on an unprecedented scale. spread of post offices into legislation. The previous The Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation Government’s access criteria could, as we know, be and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton satisfied by closing 4,000 post offices, so the difficulty is (Mr Davey) has not explained that complacency. He has writing the spread into legislation. No one—neither the hidden behind some potential barriers, which he seems official Opposition nor Back Benchers—tabled such an unwilling to try to shift and which may be more a amendment on Report, because devising the formula is figment of his imagination than a reality. I hope that the impossible. Minister will today be able to give us a better explanation for that complacency. Nia Griffith: The hon. Gentleman rightly mentions The Under-Secretary did not tell us, either in Committee geographical spread, which is important. Provision should or on Report, about any detailed work or discussions be made for it. Perhaps we should look to the Australian that have taken place to secure future Royal Mail business model. There it is guaranteed that 90% of the urban for the post office network. There are many ways in population will have a post office within 2.5 km; and which that might be achieved, but I shall concentrate almost unbelievably in such a large continent it is guaranteed my remarks on three of them, namely the inclusion of a that 85% of the rural population will have a post office specific number of access points in the Bill, the inclusion within 7.5 km. If they can manage that in Australia, we of an inter-business agreement in the Bill and other could introduce a guarantee that is much more robust ways of securing an inter-business agreement. In Committee, than what we now have. The irony is that, if Deutsche the Under-Secretary steadfastly refused to consider any Post were to purchase Royal Mail, consumers here mechanism to protect the post office network or the could have a reduced service, while they contributed to number of outlets where consumers can access post the profits of a company which must provide a specified office services. One of the issues that we debated at number of outlets in its own country. In other words, we length in Committee was including in the Postal Services could have a poorer service here, while propping up a Bill measures to guarantee the number and geographical better service in Germany—a scenario we might associate spread of access points to postal services, which would more with 19th-century colonialism than modern Britain. guarantee the public a number of outlets across the The Under-Secretary did not give convincing answers country to post parcels or register letters. Without that on Report about what exactly the legal obstacles are to guarantee of a specific number of outlets to serve the inclusion in the Bill of a guarantee of an inter-business consumers, there will be nothing to stop a privatised agreement. He did not tell us about any legal precedents Royal Mail from drastically cutting the number of on which he was drawing, or what research his team has outlets, and limiting them to the larger centres only, done on any relevant challenges in EU law. whether through high street chains or part of the post office network. The Under-Secretary has also failed to tell us about options outside the Bill itself. Currently both Royal Mr Reid: Under the Bill, Ofcom has a duty to ensure Mail and the post office network are in public ownership. that there are enough access points to meet users’ Both the chief executive and the chairman of Royal reasonable needs. Surely that is the guarantee. The Post Mail speak favourably of the post office network. They Office will either remain in Government hands or it will recognise the respect it commands, the trust it enjoys in be mutualised, so the Government have a role there. our communities and its value as a business partner. The regulator has a role in ensuring enough access What, therefore, is preventing the signing of a new points—that is post offices. inter-business agreement now, while Royal Mail is still 223WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 224WH in public ownership? I am not now talking about a new difficulty in attracting new entrants to the post office clause in the Bill, but a new business agreement: an local model; indeed, a similar pilot in Linlithgow ended agreement that goes beyond the end of the current with the shopkeeper saying that it simply was not worth inter-business agreement, which could run out within a his while to provide post office services. couple of years of privatisation, depending on the time Taxpayers will rightly ask what is the point of so scale, and that lasts for an additional 10 years. Has the much taxpayers’ money going into the post office network, Minister explored that possibility with Royal Mail? particularly when they are seeing savage cuts in other What would be the legal difference between an inter-business services, and given that the Government are doing agreement with just a couple of years to run and one absolutely nothing to help secure the 37% of post office that was to last five or 10 years? Has he sought to income that comes from the IBA with Royal Mail. capitalise on the warm words of Moya Greene and Donald Brydon about the post office network? Has he David Mowat: The Opposition continually talk about had any talks about an extended IBA between Royal the IBA as if it were some kind of nirvana. Even with it Mail and the post office network? in place, 7,500 post offices in the network are making a I am sure that the Minister does not need to be loss. At least the Minister has proposals on fixing that reminded that Royal Mail is currently in public ownership. and on modernisation. Do the Opposition have any He must realise how serious the loss of business would proposals other than the status quo? be to the post office network. Even though any decision by Royal Mail to abandon the Post Office will be taken Nia Griffith: Frankly, despite the Government’s fine after privatisation, and therefore will technically not be words, the Post Office has no new Government contracts a Government decision, he knows that the people of and no new streams of business, and it faces the possibility this country will not be slow to make the connection of losing all its Royal Mail business. Taxpayers will ask between the privatisation of Royal Mail and the demise why they have to pay for that. of their local post offices. Taxpayers understand the idea of investment that The pity is that the Minister does not seem to want to brings returns and the value of business start-up funds, take specific action. He seems to think that he can rely which can help to launch new businesses that subsequently on warm words to guarantee Royal Mail business for stand on their own two feet, and they accept the need the Post Office, but people are wary of warm words. for some subsidy to make the network a truly nationwide There have been warm words about no rise in VAT and service. However, if the post office network does not warm words about no increase in tuition fees—people provide nationwide access to postal services or develop are becoming very cynical about warm words. No shrewd new business streams to improve its viability, the taxpayer business person would trust future business security to may well ask what is the point of allocating £1.34 billion warm words. Surely, in his enthusiasm to privatise Royal to the post office network. The taxpayer has every right Mail, the Minister has not overlooked the fact that it is to ask what steps the Minister is taking to ensure that currently in public ownership, and that he therefore has the Post Office continues to do for Royal Mail business every opportunity to influence the way forward and to that provides 37% of its income. negotiate a longer IBA, here and now, before proceeding In its recent report, the Scottish Affairs Committee to privatisation. stated: Indeed, the Under-Secretary told us on Report that “we recommend the Government take a more proactive approach the Government to facilitating a long and robust IBA, through removing any “as shareholders, will ensure that the commitment that Royal obstacles: practical, legal or otherwise that may exist. Ideally, a Mail made in its evidence to the Public Bill Committee—that it ten year agreement should be reached prior to any sale of Royal would conclude the longest legally permissible contract before Mail. We understand that this may affect the marketability of separation—is fulfilled.”—[Official Report, 12 January 2011; Vol. 521, Royal Mail, but it is essential to the sustainability of Postal c. 357.] Services in Scotland. It is in everyone’s interest”. I ask the Minister to enlighten us about what talks he or Members on both sides have stressed time and again the the Under-Secretary have had with Royal Mail about valuable social role of the post office, and the Government’s drawing up a longer IBA with the Post Office before recent subsidy allocation suggests that it is a role worth privatisation. What was meant by the “longest legally paying for. permissible contract”? Is there a legal limit on such a Will the Minister say whether concern about the contract? If so, what is it? As I said in last week’s debate, marketability of Royal Mail is the reason for the purchasers take over existing contracts and responsibilities Government’s reluctance to pursue a robust IBA? If so, in all sorts of takeovers, and such arrangements can be does he consider potential diminished marketability to long-lasting. be a price worth paying when it comes to guaranteeing The hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) the future of 37% of the post office network’s business? rightly questions what joined-up thinking has taken What analysis have the Government made of the cost of place on the subsidy. In our debate on the subsidy on 20 a presumed lower price for Royal Mail with a robust December, I said that the taxpayer is paying a large IBA with the Post Office, and the cost of continued subsidy to the post office network, of which only 48% is subsidy of the post office network? Once Royal Mail is necessary to continue the subsidy that Labour introduced privatised and possibly sold to a foreign owner without to maintain the operation of the current post office a long-term IBA in place, it will be too late to insist on network. We have been told that the remainder includes one. money to convert post offices to the post office local The Government will not be able to insist on Royal model, which involves paying the sub-postmaster by Mail using the Post Office. They will not be able to transaction, but that has been criticised by the Rural do what Lord Mandelson did. They have the chance Shops Alliance, which questions why anyone would here and now. I want to know whether they are going to want to work longer hours for less income. It predicts take it. 225WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 226WH

12.16 pm we have nothing to be embarrassed about in those terms. It is in that spirit that this Government approach The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong the subject of post offices and make it clear there will be Learning (Mr John Hayes): It is always a delight to no further post office closure programme. That is enough serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. It is a of my partisan points; I just felt that it was important to delight, also, to welcome a debate on the implications put them on the record. for the post office network of the privatisation of Royal Mail, and I congratulate the hon. Member for North Let me make 10 points to kick things off, then I will Ayrshire and Arran (Katy Clark) on securing it. She try to deal with the points that have been raised in the introduced the subject with typical courtesy and clarity. debate. First, the Government have made it absolutely I know that her concerns are widely felt, and I want to clear that the Post Office is not for sale. Secondly, we be as responsive and sensitive to those concerns as I recognise that the Post Office is a unique national asset, can. I shall try to deal with as many of the points raised so there will be no repeat of the closure programmes of in debate as possible; I hope that hon. Members will the past. Thirdly, we have committed £1.34 billion to not mind if I am not as generous as usual in taking the Post Office for it to modernise its network and interventions, as we have a lot of ground to cover. safeguard its future, thus making it a stronger partner for Royal Mail. Fourthly, the Bill before Parliament The matter has been extensively debated over recent proposes to separate Post Office Ltd from the Royal weeks, including during the Committee stage of the Postal Mail Group, thus allowing the Post Office to focus Services Bill, the oral evidence session of the Scottish more attention on developing its business. It also allows Affairs Committee, the Third Reading of the Bill last for the possible future mutualisation of Post Office Ltd. Wednesday and at the Department for Business, Innovation Fifthly, under a mutual structure, the ownership and and Skills Question Time. Indeed, the matter has been running of the post office network could be handed aired in a number of forums. I fully appreciate that over to employees, sub-postmasters and communities. people are concerned about the future of the post office Sixthly, the Government are committed to secure a network. In essence, this debate focuses on that subject, sustainable future for the Post Office and we want it to and I shall try to restrict my remarks to that, for become a genuine front office for Government at both a understandable reasons. national and local level. Seventhly, we will support the I start by putting the matter in context. I do not mean expansion of accessible and affordable personal financial the economic context—the fact that the Government services that are available through the post office. Eighthly, inherited the largest peacetime deficit in our history, we will support the greater involvement of local authorities and that the state is borrowing one pound in every four in planning and delivering local post office provision. that it spends and is paying only the interest on the Ninthly, the Government fully share hon. Members’ nation’s debt, which costs £43 billion each year, or laudable interest in ensuring a strong commercial about £120 million a day. That is not entirely relevant, relationship between Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd, Mr Hollobone, and you would not want me to dwell on but we do not share the view that legislating for a it, but it needs to be said. I mean the context that contract of between five and 20 years is the way in surrounds Royal Mail—the need to invest in Royal which to achieve our shared objective. To pick up on the Mail, to update it and to make it a business that can point made by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia compete in an increasingly complex international scene. Griffith), it is not just that that would make Royal Mail As the hon. Member for Solihull (Lorely Burt) said, less saleable—although it might—but that it would be social change and the way in which people access, legally challenged under competition law and possibly exchange and use information are having an impact on internationally, too. I agree that it is important that the post offices and Royal Mail, as has the increasingly arrangements between Royal Mail and the Post Office competitive nature of the marketplace. In order to get are as secure as they can be, and I will return to that that investment, the Government needed to think afresh point and the particular question that she raised in a about the ownership of Royal Mail. That is widely moment. acknowledged. I put on record that the previous Lastly, as the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Government were indeed considering the matter, and Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for introduced a Bill in the Lords. Had they been re-elected, Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), made it clear last I have no doubt that we would be having a debate in week, stamps will continue to be issued in the same way. Government time about the future of Royal Mail, but on a different set of assumptions about its ownership. Anne Marie Morris: I am delighted to hear the Minister’s comments about stamps, but I am concerned about The context is one of a need for change, and a need those wonderful red pillar boxes and the monogram. for fresh ideas about how to guarantee a strong future Will the Minister confirm that they will also be protected? for Royal Mail. In that spirit, I do not want to dwell too much on the previous Government’s record, but it would Mr Hayes: I was about to say that stamps will continue be remiss of me not to say that between 1997 and 2010, to bear the sovereign’s head, which is right and proper. I about 7,000 post offices closed, 5,000 of which were in hear what my hon. Friend says, and I share her view; it two Government-funded closure programmes in 2003-05 is important that we retain the iconic pillar box with the and 2007-09. Government Members should not be expected Royal monogram on. That is something that the to take too many lessons from the Opposition. Government will consider. I can say no more at this I do not want to be excessively partisan or to get into stage, but I know that my hon. Friend will want to take an argument about this, but the Government value post up that point and see what can be done. offices. We understand their social and cultural value as In evidence to the Postal Services Bill Committee well as their utility. As constituency Members, we have over recent weeks, there has been strong backing for the fought for them to be retained up and down the land, so separation of Royal Mail and Post Office Ltd. I noted 227WH Royal Mail Privatisation18 JANUARY 2011 Royal Mail Privatisation 228WH that no one made a case against that today. As I said, it the Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) says was, I think, accepted by most Members in this House. about cost and subsidy. We can deal with that by They are different businesses that will benefit from allowing post offices to do more, thus ensuring that focusing on different challenges. In his evidence to the they can be profitable businesses. We are looking at a Committee, Richard Hooper of Consumer Focus and range of additional services—both local government Postcomm supported the separation of the ownership and national Government services—that post offices of the businesses. can provide. Post offices can act as a front line for those In her evidence to the Committee, Moya Greene, clients or users that need to do things in their community chief executive of Royal Mail, said that it would be in a way that is accessible and convenient. We are unthinkable not always to have a strong relationship piloting a range of services that post offices can provide between the Post Office and Royal Mail. To underline and, as a result of this debate, we will look at other that point, Donald Brydon, Royal Mail’s chairman, things that Government can do to make the post office pledged in his evidence that before any privatisation of network more viable, commercial and profitable. I know Royal Mail could take place, a continued long-term that my hon. Friend is anxious about that and I understand commercial contract will be in place between the two why. businesses for the longest duration that is legally However, there will always be small rural post offices, permissible—a point that was picked up by the hon. perhaps in more remote communities, that will find it Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid). Such a pledge very hard to operate without subsidy. I do not have a provides a reassurance about the marriage between the problem with that. Post offices are so culturally and two, which is essential to maintaining the post office socially important that we need to take that on board. network that we all feel so strongly about. This is done Certainly, all those that can be profitable should be not for sentimental reasons, but because it makes good profitable. commercial sense. The post office network has an unparalleled reach and a very strong brand. As my hon. Friend the Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie David Mowat: After the modernisation programme, Morris) said, we can be optimistic about the relationship. how many post offices does the Minister think will be A stronger Royal Mail is more likely to secure the future self-sufficient? of many more post offices. If we do not take the necessary radical steps to support and invest in Royal Mr Hayes: As part of the recent £1.34 billion funding Mail, post offices will be at risk. That is something that package, there is a legally binding commitment to a we can look to with confidence, based on the belief that minimum number of post offices—the Post Office is post offices not only provide important services, but are required to provide a network of at least 11,500 branches. at the hub of local communities. The post office in my As I have said, there will be no closure programme own village of Moulton, which is run by Gary and Jane, under this Government. I am confident that many more does an excellent job not just providing postal services post offices can be made profitable, but I will not but as a centre for all kinds of activities in the village. It speculate on which post offices will take up which is a shop, too, and provides a valuable local service. services in which locations; my hon. Friend can hardly As a representative of a rural constituency, I understand expect me to do that. some of the concerns expressed by other rural colleagues. I have just time to say a word about demutualisation, We heard from the hon. Member for North Ayrshire which was raised by the hon. Member for Edinburgh and Arran that there are concerns about the spread of East (Sheila Gilmore). Demutualisation is not something the network—the universality. Let me make it clear that that we see happening; indeed it will be specifically in terms of universality, the Bill will create a fundamental prohibited. duty at the heart of the legislation for a six-day per week collection and delivery of letters at uniform and A better future for Royal Mail means a brighter affordable prices. To do that, we need a service that is future for post offices. This Government seek that brighter spread across the whole nation and not a partial service; future and will deliver it; nothing less will do. we are committed to that and I personally feel very strongly about it. Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): Order. I thank all It is important to say that the future success of the the Members who took part in that most interesting post office network will depend on it providing a fuller debate and ask all those who are leaving to do so and wider range of services. I hear what my hon. Friend quickly and quietly. 229WH 18 JANUARY 2011 Trailers (EU Proposals) 230WH

Trailers (EU Proposals) vehicles with single-deck ones, the total amount of fuel consumed since 2008 would have increased from 190 million 12.30 pm litres of fuel to 342 million litres, which is an 80% increase in fuel consumption. With carbon dioxide directly Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con): Thank you, linked to fuel consumption, it has been predicted that Mr Hollobone. It is an honour to speak under your that increase in fuel consumption would increase CO2 chairmanship. emissions from 0.5 million tonnes to 0.9 million tonnes Although talking about the height of trailers does a year, which relates to a 5.3% increase in the amount of not sound too exciting, the new proposal from the CO2 emitted by articulated lorries on British roads. European Commission to limit the height of trailers to Although the concerns that I have expressed are 4 metres will have a detrimental effect on the British paramount, I am also concerned by the way in which haulage sector, on our environment and on every person the European Commission has conducted itself on this who uses our already crowded roads. One of my issue. The proposal on page 49 of version two of the constituents, Robin Allen, contacted me towards the working paper of the “Fl JPD PE Masses and Dimensions” end of last year to ask me to raise the issue in this document is registered for “restricted circulation”, and House, hopefully to stir up some support for our country’s it is not at all easy to track down. In fact, it took a lot hauliers. lateral thinking and persuasion by my staff to finally Like many people, at first I did not realise the potential see a copy. It concerns me that, given the impact this impact of the proposed legislation. Of the EU member proposal will have on British haulage, this document is states, 20 out of 25 have a 4-metre height restriction on being hidden away, despite its being well known within trailers for safety reasons. The proposal from the European the haulage industry. Commission aims to bring the UK and four other Perhaps my lack of trust in the openness of Europe is member states into line with the majority. It is my getting the better of me, but I believe that the European personal view that this proposal demonstrates the Commission would be better able to defend itself if it unnecessary work of the European Commission, which were completely open with the industry that it is attempting makes regulations for regulation’s sake. to regulate. An e-mail from the European Commission The UK’s road infrastructure can accommodate trailers received by my office states that the document is not that are up to 4.9 metres high and there is currently no ready to be seen outside the working group on the limit in Britain on the height that a trailer can be; the policy. As I have said, the proposal is already well only restriction is whether a trailer can pass under known within the haulage industry, so I ask the European bridges here. People might think that a reduction of Union to open the discussion to everyone who will be 90 cm will not make much difference, but, as the excellent affected by the proposal, to ensure that anything that is report by Professor Alan McKinnon, “Britain without developed is in the interests of British companies. Double-deck Lorries”, demonstrates, this proposal will The European Commission’s proposal has caused have a massive impact on Britain’s haulage industry. concern among those in the haulage industry, from my Professor McKinnon suggests that, if the height of constituent, Robin Allen, to the chief executive officer lorries is restricted, haulage companies will have to of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, increase their fleet size just to accommodate the same Mr Paul Everitt, who has stated: load capacity, and it will cost an extra £387 million to “The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders’ view on distribute the same amount of goods. Double-deck trailer heights is that limiting them to 4 metres would be detrimental lorries, or lorries over 4 metres in height, cost roughly to the vehicle industry, UK infrastructure, environment and economy.” 10% more money to operate than other lorries, due to their size. Nevertheless, it would cost a haulage company more money to have fewer double-deck lorries and to Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab): I come increase the size of its fleet. Any extra cost would to this debate as the chairman of the all-party group on inevitably have a huge impact on the ability of smaller freight transport, and we discussed this issue at our last firms to remain competitive, thus resulting in cuts in meeting. At that meeting, there were organisations around employment in the sector. As there are several haulage the table from across the spectrum, not only from the firms in my constituency, I am particularly concerned haulage industry but from the haulage rescue industry, for their viability, given all the other challenges that which would undoubtedly see its work load rise under they face, such as rising fuel prices and the rise in VAT. this proposal. Professor McKinnon’s research suggests that the The hon. Lady has made some excellent points. Does proposed legislation would result in a 5.5% increase in she agree that Britain should be at the forefront of the number of lorries on Britain’s roads. That would fighting against this proposal, saying, “No, 4.2 metres, mean more wear and tear on our roads—the previous 4 metres or whatever the European suggestion is for is Government’s economic record already makes it difficult just ridiculous. It doesn’t work for British hauliers and to keep on top of that issue. The increase in the number should be opposed at every stage.”? of lorries using our roads and the resulting damage to our roads would lead to more traffic and more traffic Pauline Latham: I agree that we should be at the jams. In turn, that would mean higher transport costs forefront of the fight against this proposal, because it and higher costs for goods in the shops, along with would impact so greatly on our haulage industry, which, increased stress and inconvenience for drivers. as I have said, faces so many challenges at the moment. Finally, there is the issue of the impact on our It would also impact on the people of this country, who environment; it is probably not the main concern of would pay more for their goods. We are already in a Britain’s haulage firms, but in my view it is equally difficult, cash-strapped situation, so we do not want to important. If in 2008 we had replaced all double-deck increase the difficulties not only for the haulage industry 231WH Trailers (EU Proposals)18 JANUARY 2011 Trailers (EU Proposals) 232WH but for every single one of us. I completely agree with Other countries in Europe already have a 4-metre limit— the hon. Gentleman’s point and hope that the Minister Austria, for example. No vehicle entering that country will take it on board. can have a height of more than 4 metres, which is Time is short, so I will use what time I have left to ask absolutely fine. The people of Austria have every right three things of the Minister—for the sake of the British to decide that, but they do not have any right to tell economy, we need to get this proposal right. Before us, in this country, what the height of our vehicles doing so, however, I thank him for his letter of 22 December should be. 2010. First, I hope that the Minister will use his time There are a number of key points. We have a system today to outline his Department’s position in relation that works perfectly well—it’s not broken, so don’t fix to the European Commission’s proposal. I understand it. We should not put our hauliers in a disproportionately from his letter to me and his comments to the trade difficult fiscal position. Environmentally, what are we press that he and the Department share many of the doing talking about limiting the height and thereby views of the haulage industry, but perhaps he will put increasing the number of vehicles on our roads? I have that position on record. Secondly, will he ask the European absolutely no intention of increasing the weight limit on Commission to make the proposal document available, vehicles, so this measure would immediately cause a so that those within the industry who will be affected problem. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that it can give their views? Thirdly and finally, I ask him to would place a disproportionate burden on our industry. write to Government MEPs to ask them to raise the I am carefully considering proposals to extend the concerns of the British haulage industry in Europe. length of vehicles by adding more crates to the back of Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair): I have certainly certain vehicles. The issue has split the industry almost learned a lot from what the hon. Lady has just said, and 50:50, and I can see the benefits but also the problems I am very much looking forward to hearing the response for some of the smaller hauliers, whose trailer stock from the Minister. would have to be changed. The industry should not fear that proposal though, because it is common sense to 12.37 pm move more products around our congested roads in just The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport one vehicle, which will take more vehicles off the roads (Mike Penning): It is a privilege to serve under your altogether. chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. We entered the House I have not only set out the position to the industry together; clearly I have gone one way and you have gone here in Parliament, but written articles, provided interviews another. and strongly set out my views, because I want this This is a really important debate. I congratulate my market-driven industry, which has very tight profit margins, hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline to know not only what is happening on this issue, but Latham) on securing it, so that I can do exactly what how the Government will protect it in the future. Hauliers she has asked me to do and set out the Government’s come over to this country from other European countries position. Also, I say to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent with belly tanks on, drive around our roads, pay no South (Robert Flello) that I would love to speak to the taxation and buy no fuel. It is difficult for our industry all-party group on freight transport and set out the to compete with that, so we are looking at lorry road-user Government’s position there, too; I know the all-party charges to create a more level playing field. We are group well, just as the haulage industry in general committed to bringing in such a charge for trucks, knows me very well. because it will create a better balance. In the short time that I have been a Minister, I have I am also trying to limit the amount of regulation, so been trying to set out as quickly as possible the new that the industry does not feel that the Government are Government’s position on this issue, particularly to on its back all the time. If there are bad hauliers out hauliers given the problems that they face. I would love there with vehicles that are not fit for purpose, it is quite to think that, when the Prime Minister appointed me to right that our police should bring regulation down on my post, he knew that I hold a heavy goods vehicle them like a ton of bricks. The vast majority of those in licence and have done so since I was 17—I was in the the industry, however, play by the rules and do the very military at the time, so I could hold a HGV licence at best they can, but at the same time they feel that more that age, unlike in civvy street, where someone has to be regulation and more of a burden is placed on them. 21. Sadly, I have never driven an articulated vehicle, As well as being the roads Minister, responsible for although the Stobart Group has encouraged me to do the UK freight industry and haulage, I am the deregulation so on its private land; indeed, I will do so in the very Minister, and I am looking carefully at the regulations near future. that are out there, some of which we have inherited and I want to set out right from the start that the Government some of which have come from Europe. We are talking have absolutely no intention of introducing the 4-metre about just one of the measures that Europe has decided regulation here; we are fighting it tooth and nail. Yesterday, to look at, but about four fifths of all regulations that my officials within this group in Europe attended a come through the Department for Transport are either meeting, and said exactly that. This is majority vote EU or internationally led. It is difficult, therefore, to territory, so we have to ensure that we are not alone, and start to deregulate when these things have already been I am pleased that the information coming back is that decided. The key is to get in early, to put our foot down other countries with substantial vote clout are indicating absolutely rigorously right at the start and say, “This is that they are not happy either. the position we’re in.” To be fair to the Commission, I It is important that I set out why I am turning around think that it realises that the measure is not popular and and saying no to my European friends. It is not just that will certainly not get unanimity, and it is starting to I am a little Eurosceptic, but that the measure would learn that not only this country but others will start to have a fundamental effect on the British haulage industry. kick and push back. 233WH Trailers (EU Proposals)18 JANUARY 2011 Trailers (EU Proposals) 234WH

[Mike Penning] The evidence needs to be on not only the costs and the increased distance travelled—there are different figures The earlier we push back on regulations from Europe, around, but there would be an increase of about 4.5% in the better. As I have said, there were meetings yesterday, road use, particularly by articulated lorries—but on the and there will be more as we go forward, and there is no effects on CO2 emissions. One thing that we all want to doubt that the Commission knows this Government’s do is to protect the planet for our young people and for views—it certainly knows mine. My officials have been the future, but at the same time we need growth. The told in no uncertain terms to ensure that those views are last thing in the world that I want, therefore, if I am put forward as strongly as possible. The European sweating the assets on the highways, and particularly Parliament also knows my views, and I certainly will be the motorways, of this country—something we try to working with it, and hon. Members, and I can spread do as much as possible—is to see an increase in the the good word about where we are through the all-party number of lorries without an increase in growth. There groups. I hope to write an article on this matter in the would be an increase in cost, but not in profitability. We next few weeks, to elaborate exactly where we are, not estimate that this would equate to about 151,000 new only on this matter but on the enormously important cars on the road, which, for those who do not know the issue of trailer length. industry, would cost road haulage about £305 million a To move forward on this subject, in which I am sure year. Figures such as those—our Department produced you are very interested, Mr Hollobone, it is important them in consultation with the industry—are desperately that not only do I do my bit and my hon. Friend does needed. We need to quantify matters and ensure that we hers but, as constituency MPs, we all do our bit. It is have a proper evidence base. important that I get as much written support as possible, to show that we have, in our armoury, cross-party Impact assessments must be done not only for fiscal support in the House. The matter is not new—it has problems and emissions but for congestion. One thing been around since 2005—and I am sure that the shadow that I have learned since I took over this portfolio eight teams, even though they quite rightly cannot contribute months ago is that congestion involves not only pollution to the debate today, understand the problems that have but money for the haulage industry. That is why we have been coming through. It is important that the hauliers announced, as I am sure my hon. Friend knows, that we in my constituency, my hon. Friend’s constituency and will remove barrier tolls from the Dartford river crossing the constituency of the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent by the end of 2012 to allow free flow, so that hauliers do South know that we will do everything we can to not sit in traffic for 10, 11 or 12 miles. Often, no support them in this and other areas related to the accident has occurred; it is just that someone is trying to regulatory burden. find their money or credit card to pay, while the barriers bob up and down and traffic moves forward. That will Robert Flello: I welcome what the Minister has said open up opportunities enormously for the industry in today, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid that part of the world. Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) on securing the debate. I have said to the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs Taking up the comment that the Minister made at the that we will consider whether we can negotiate with the beginning, I invite him to address the next meeting of contract holder of the Severn bridge crossing to do the the all-party group on freight transport, to set at rest same. I was also on the M6 toll road the other day to the minds of all the different organisations represented discuss whether barriers could be removed there and there, and perhaps to discuss issues of great concern replaced by number plate recognition. Sadly, legislation and relevance to various organisations out there in the would need to be introduced—I hope to introduce it haulage industry, such as the motor insurance database. with reference to the Dartford river crossing—to allow us to pursue and find people who refuse to pay the tolls Mike Penning: I am more than grateful to accept that that everybody else pays. offer. I am sure that my officials have heard what has been said and will contact the hon. Gentleman in the The next step is that the Department for Transport near future, so that I can discuss these and the many will again meet the relevant heads of responsibilities in other issues of concern to the haulage industry. On his the European Commission—as I have said, we met point about insurance—something that he is perhaps yesterday— and make it perfectly clear that we are more looking into—there should be no fears around that. than happy with the status quo and do not want to The idea is to remove the at least 1.5 million people who reduce the limit to 4 metres. We have told the other drive on the highways and byways of this country when member states supporting us that we are happy with the uninsured, and I am sure that the haulage industry status quo. They feel that issues might arise involving wholeheartedly supports me on the importance of cross-border enforcement. That operates perfectly well addressing that. today; as I said earlier, Austria already has a 4-metre The haulage industry needs to supply us with evidence, limit and enforces it. That is fine for Austria. We do not because it is all well and good my standing up here and need to enforce anything, because there is no limit and our having a debate, but we are not experts in this field. we are perfectly happy. We have weight restrictions. The people in the industry are the experts on these problems, which affect their jobs, and their capacity to I have alluded to allowing free-flow tolling at the do them, every single day.As well as us and the Government Dartford river crossing. Interestingly, the left-hand bore saying, “Right, we’re going to push back on this,” the going north is the smaller of the two tunnels, and when evidence has to come from the industry itself, so that we move to free-flow tolling, there will be issues involving when other countries in the European Union say that how to move oversize vehicles into the right-hand bore. they are pro this—some are—we can have an evidence-based Free-flow tolling going south will cost money, but it is argument, which is absolutely crucial. much simpler coming off the bridge. 235WH Trailers (EU Proposals) 18 JANUARY 2011 236WH

[MR CHRISTOPHER CHOPE in the Chair] Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test Centres Because of the size of the regional tunnel—some of us remember when it was the only tunnel available for crossing at that part of the dock—it is absolutely imperative 12.56 pm that we consider traffic going north, as there are safety implications. However, we have managed to do it. There Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am pleased to appear are plenty of bridges, tunnels and crossings in this under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I am also pleased country with height restrictions, and we have pushed to see the Minister here. I was a bit worried this morning hard to ensure that we protect them. when I saw the written statement that the Secretary of State for Transport issued on the closure of an office in As I said earlier, Mr Hollobone—[Interruption.] It is Cardiff. It starts: a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Chope. I mentioned earlier that if we made the change, there “The Driving Standards Agency (DSA) is responsible for would undoubtedly be pressure on me as a Minister to setting standards and conducting theory and practical driving tests for motorists in England and Wales.” increase the weight limits in line with other parts of Europe. It is a natural argument to make. If I argue that I wondered whether the Government had devolved we do not want more vehicles as a result of the height responsibility without telling us, but I am assured that limitation, the pressure will say, “We have dropped to that is not the case and that the Minister is still responsible 4 metres. If you want fewer vehicles, it would be better— for the Scottish centres. wouldn’t it, Minister?—to increase weight limits so we A problem has arisen in my constituency. Last week, can move the same amount of freight around the country the Driving Standards Agency announced the closure on the same number of vehicles.” I am not minded to do of the driving test centres at Arbroath and Forfar. The so. As it is, our roads are struggling to cope with the size decision has caused a huge amount of anger among of some lorries. Some lorries, often unintentionally, end those who are undergoing driving instruction, driving up on wrong and completely unsuitable roads—we have instructors and the general public. That anger stems all seen it; I have seen it especially in the rural part of not only from the effects of the closure on our local my constituency—often sent by some satellite navigation communities, but from how the closure was announced. device. Actually, saying that it was announced is incorrect. There are some interesting ideas about how trailers What happened is that the Driving Standards Agency can adapt for the 21st century without the need to drop wrote to local driving instructors on 30 December, the height. For instance, one interesting idea submitted although many letters were not received until after the to me is that the payload might be dropped between the new year holiday. At the same time, the DSA sent me a two axles in order to get more volume into the trailer on letter with a copy of the first letter attached. The letter lighter loads. I am considering the extension of trailers, informed driving instructors about a wonderful new and, as I have said, I will make an announcement pretty multi-purpose testing centre to be opened in Dundee in soon. February. Halfway through, the letter casually stated: It all falls into place. Margins are tight for hauliers. “In line with the opening of this new centre and in keeping They are worried, for instance, about the cost of fuel, with the Agency’s Code of Practice I wish to notify you of the wages and insurance. This is the last thing that any closure of the practical driving test centres in Arbroath and Government want. I am surprised that Europe is considering Forfar. Arbroath and Forfar test centres will cease to operate with such a measure. I do not actually think that that was effect from 18 March 2011.” what was originally intended; I think that it was drifted That was the first that any of us had heard of it. No into. The matter falls into the area of subsidiarity. prior notice was given, no consultation was held and, in Europe should not be touching it; it is a sovereign area. effect, no public announcement was made; only a letter However, it is a matter for qualified majority voting, so was sent to driving instructors. as much as I would like to stand alone and say that The letter went on to say that those who had booked England can defend our shores, unless we carry the tests at Arbroath and Forfar centres would support of a significant number of other European Union countries, we will struggle. However, all the “be contacted by the Agency to notify them of this change in evidence that we are receiving at the moment says that location.” we have support, including, interestingly, from France, It is not a change in location; it is the removal of a local our closest neighbour, which is also not interested in facility without any notice or consultation. In effect, imposing the 4-metre limit. It looks as though common those seeking tests will have to sit them in Dundee. sense will come forward. Worse still, the DSA imperiously noted that it did not I think that I have exhausted this interesting and need to consult on the matter and that the closure important subject and set out the Government’s position would go ahead. That is a ridiculous, high-handed and strongly. I hope that hon. Members here today are objectionable way for any Government agency to behave. listening, as are the industry and the European Commission, Surely those affected by such a decision should, at the and that we can move forward and protect our freight very least, be consulted before an important local service industry and hauliers. I am passionate about the issue. is removed. The present Government say that they are To declare an interest, I drove HGVs young in life—I committed to localism—in fact, the Localism Bill received was a fireman and, like all firemen, had a part-time job, Second Reading yesterday—but the way they have so I drove HGVs during my time off. We must protect proceeded is the antithesis of such a policy. Will the hauliers and ensure that we have a robust British industry Minister get in touch with the DSA immediately and of which we can be proud. As the Minister, I am tell it that such a high-handed attitude is totally unacceptable determined to defend it. and that it must consult before removing services from local communities? 237WH Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 18 JANUARY 2011 Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 238WH Centres Centres [Mr Mike Weir] well as paying the fee of £62 for the test, they would incur the costs of three hours’ hire of the instructor’s In Angus, local petitions and a Facebook campaign car and time. It is a substantial cost just to sit the test. are already showing the level of opposition to that The implications for local driving instructors would move. The removal of the driving test centres would be equally devastating. They are mostly small businesses; have serious implications for Angus. It would mean that indeed, they are often one-person operations. They only Montrose, which is a part-time testing station, have to meet increasing costs, as I have mentioned, due would be left between Dundee and Aberdeen on the to rising fuel prices and VAT, which already impact east cost of Scotland. All the driving centres in the area upon the costs of lessons. Clearly, they would wish to already have substantial waiting times, and I will address teach their pupils on the types of routes over which they that point in a moment. would have to sit their tests, but is it really conceivable The Driving Standards Agency’s own charter for that their pupils would be prepared to pay almost excellence gives a standard of six weeks’ waiting time double the price currently charged? Many pupils may for a driving test, but I am told by local instructors that, take the bus to Dundee and receive their lessons from a at present, the average waiting time in Arbroath, Forfar, Dundee instructor rather than a local one, thus devastating Montrose and Dundee test centres is 10 to 12 weeks, their businesses. What is the sense in closing local while 14 is not unknown. I know that that is the case facilities and imperilling local small businesses? I thought because my own daughter is learning to drive and, apart that the Government’s policy was to encourage the from the cost, she will have to wait for a driving test. creation of private sector jobs, but the ridiculous closure At the end of December, tests were being allocated decision will have exactly the opposite effect. How on for the end of March, which effectively means a three-month earth can this be justified? It seems to fly in the face of wait for a test. Closure of the Arbroath and Forfar the much-vaunted localism agenda. stations will surely exacerbate that problem and lead to even longer waiting times. How does that comply David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con): The hon. with the agency’s own charter? I understand that the Gentleman makes an extremely valuable point in relation Government’s charter mark was removed from the agency to the impact on driving instructors whose centres are in 2003 due to its inability to meet its obligations. It closed in that way, particularly in Forfar and Arbroath. seems that, given the waiting times and the charter’s When the driving test centre in Warrington was closed, terms, it is moving towards the same situation. there was a displacement of activity to driving instructors The removal of the stations in Arbroath and Forfar in St Helen’s, which had a test centre, and that has would mean that those who have already booked tests resulted in a number of Warrington-based driving for dates after the closure would have to re-book for a instructors going out of business. A secondary impact test in Dundee and would fall, presumably, to the end of is that the pass rates for Warrington-based students the queue, putting their tests off for at least several have declined, presumably because they were less likely weeks. They would also either face further lessons to to be able to practise in those areas in which they would learn the techniques of driving under very different city ultimately take the test. conditions on their test route, or take the test at a huge disadvantage; it might be different from what they Mr Weir: I thank the hon. Gentleman, who has expected. reiterated my point. There will also be real impacts The situation is even worse for future learner drivers upon the local community of Angus. Not only will the in the Angus area. At present, a driving lesson in Angus decision mean, as I have said, that there will be only one costs in the region of £20 for an hour, which I can test centre between Dundee and Aberdeen—and that a confirm because, as I have said, my daughter is learning part-time one—but, inevitably, there will be increased to drive. The costs are already under pressure due to the waiting times for tests for many constituents. The Minister escalating price of fuel, which now stands at £1.26 a will also be aware, however, that the type of driving that litre in Brechin, where I live, and to increases in VAT, is suitable for cities—I think that this is the point that and they will undoubtedly rise further. Within the hour the hon. Member for Warrington South (David Mowat) of a driving lesson, the learner can learn driving techniques was making—is different from the type of driving that that are normal in the area in which they would expect is, or should, be practised on rural roads in areas such to take their test: Arbroath, Forfar or Montrose. If, as Angus. however, they now face having to go to Dundee to take I noticed the Minister shaking his head at some of the test, they will, understandably, wish to learn to drive my earlier points on this issue. Although it is undoubtedly in the type of conditions in which they would be taking true that drivers should be able to deal with any road their tests, which means that they would have to learn to conditions and situations that they encounter, I am sure drive mostly in the city of Dundee. Therefore, if they that he would agree that it is vital that those who learn took lessons from a local driving instructor, the driving to drive do so on the roads that they are most likely to time from Forfar or Arbroath to Dundee and back use, especially in the early months of driving. I am would take up the vast bulk of their one hour lesson, seriously concerned that those who learn to drive on the giving them very little time to learn within the city area. congested city roads may find it a very different experience The implications for those people are quite clear: on country roads. I believe that to be a serious safety they would have to take substantially more lessons, or issue. to book two-hour lessons, which would substantially As I said, the Minister shook his head at some of my increase the cost of learning to drive. Few of the young earlier remarks, but just before Christmas he accepted people in my constituency who are learning to drive that argument, to some extent, in relation to motorcycle could afford to pay the £40 to £50 per week that would tests when he announced that they would take place be required. Moreover, on the test days themselves, as mostly on local roads, not in specialist centres, in order 239WH Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 18 JANUARY 2011 Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 240WH Centres Centres to deal with the ridiculous situation where motorcyclists with not only the community, but those directly affected in rural areas often had to travel large distances to a test by the proposal. This is a totally inappropriate way for centre. However, the letter that I received from the DSA any Government agency to proceed. states that the test facilities in Perth for motorcyclists are also being withdrawn and that they will have to 1.11 pm travel to Dundee for the tests. It appears that motorcyclists The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport from highland Perthshire, for example, will have to go (Mike Penning): I reiterate the earlier comments I made to either Dundee or Inverness, which is a long journey when you took the Chair, Mr Chope: it is a pleasure to either way, for a test. Surely that action goes against the serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Minister’s own announced policy a month ago. Member for Angus (Mr Weir). He is doing exactly what The DSA’s actions are even more inexplicable when I would do if I were a Back Bencher—standing up for we look at the pass rates from the various test centres. his community. The hon. Member for Warrington South referred to Let us agree on some things from the start. If the that point in relation to his own area. In 2010, Arbroath waiting list is 10 to 12 weeks—I take the hon. Gentleman’s had a pass rate of 61.1% and Forfar 57.2%, while word that that is the case—the centres will not close Dundee had a pass rate of only 47.3%. They all administer until they are within the guidelines, which is six weeks. the same test, so it seems that the driving instructors Pre-bookings are an issue. People can pre-book in bulk, and examiners in those areas are doing something right, which causes a problem. The hon. Gentleman said that yet they are being rewarded by the daft decision to close there were bookings into March. There will be pre-bookings the centres. in cases when instructors can predict that their pupils In its own publicity, the DSA says that it aims to are likely to be able to take the test at that time. That is make appointments available within nine weeks, although why there are pre-bookings. It happens around the it gives itself an out by limiting that to 90% of test country—it happened when my daughter was doing her centres. I submit that that will, in any event, be almost test just 18 months ago. impossible if this centralising proposal goes ahead. The There is an issue relating to consultation. However, I promise under the DSA’s “Customer Service Excellence” must say that I have inherited the Driving Standards section to Agency code of practice that his Government put into “make a tangible difference to public service users by encouraging place. provider organisations to focus on customers’ individual needs and preferences” Mr Weir: Will the Minister give way? will raise a hollow laugh around Angus as our facilities Mike Penning: No. I sat and listened, so the hon. are stripped away. What customers want is a local Gentleman can listen to me for a few minutes longer facility that meets local needs. and then he can intervene. Let me make my point first. I It is also interesting to note that the agency promotes inherited the current situation. As a result of the distance an eco-safe driving scheme. It states that travelled, the code of practice brought in by the previous Government states that there does not have to be a “the objectives of this scheme also support the Department for Transport’s targets to improve road safety and the environmental consultation. I am looking at that issue because I do not performance of transport.” think it is acceptable. I am eight months into the job and I have a very large portfolio. I accept that there are How will it be more eco-efficient to have learners and issues, but I inherited this situation and I will look at it instructors travelling from all over Angus to take lessons and see if we can change it. I am happy to do so as long and tests in Dundee? Surely the effect will be an increase as the hon. Gentleman accepts that his Government in carbon emissions. were the problem and were closing driving test centres Since I secured the debate, I have received representations long before I was appointed to my post. from many areas of the United Kingdom where similar situations have developed. I understand that some 22 test Mr Weir: I do not accept that. I was not a supporter centres have closed over the past two years and accept of the previous Government just as I am not a supporter that the problem predates the Government. However, of this Government. I represent the Scottish National the Minister is in post when the Government are trying party. I accept the Minister’s point that he did not to close the test centre in my constituency and many introduce the code of practice, but the code of practice others throughout the UK. The Driving Standards exists and he is the Minister. He says he is looking at it, Agency seems to have a deliberate policy of closing but will he suspend closures until he considers the smaller test centres in favour of large multi-purpose test matter in more detail? centres. For all the reasons I have noted, that is a misguided and dangerous proposal for learners, instructors Mike Penning: I humbly apologise to the hon. Gentleman. and local communities. It was wrong and improper of me to assume that he was a member of the previous Government. It is probably I urge the Minister to undertake an urgent review of because there has been a coalition in Scotland over the the policy and immediately to tell the Driving Standards years since I have been in politics. I completely and Agency to halt the proposed closures at Arbroath and humbly apologise; it was an insult. Forfar. At the very least, they should ensure that there is a public consultation before any decisions are made. Mr Weir: It was a great insult. That is the least the general public should expect when an important local facility is under threat. Such a Mike Penning: I have been insulted many times over facility would not be removed by central diktat in any the years. I am sure we can solve the problem over a pint other area without a public announcement or consultation of beer. 241WH Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 18 JANUARY 2011 Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 242WH Centres Centres [Mike Penning] someone going to an area because they know it. We are not publishing the routes that people take for their test, I am not going to do as the hon. Gentleman suggests and instructors will not know what the examiners are because I want the Driving Standards Agency to make going to do. However, I agree that people have to progress. I shall touch on several points, including those understand how to drive on rural roads, which we have made by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington in parts of my constituency as well as in that of the hon. South (David Mowat), regarding how we should be Gentleman, and in urban areas. We must have a situation dealing with the matter. The issue has nothing to do in which we increase the skill base. I have listened to the with bricks and mortar and buildings; it is about the instructors in certain areas and they have said, “This quality of service, the test and the people who are will have a detrimental effect because we will have to taking the test. I shall work backwards through the teach them to go there.” That is based on old knowledge issues. and on the fact that we used to publish the routes that Long before I took this portfolio, one of the biggest examiners would take. We are no longer going to do things that worried me as a father and that worries me that. They will not know the routes. People will not only now as a Minister is that people are being taught to pass have to be able to drive for 10 minutes without being a test, rather than how to drive and be safe on the road guided, which is what happens when people have passed for themselves and other road users. My daughter is their test, but they will not know the routes. The instructors going through the process at the moment—as is the do not know the routes; things will not happen that way. daughter of the hon. Member for Angus—which is This a short debate, so let us touch on the important difficult and strenuous. I intend to make it more difficult, points raised by the hon. Gentleman because I find not because I am picking on young people, or on some of them very worrying, especially his analogy. The anyone who is taking their test, but because if we reason I changed the motorcycle test is because someone consider the statistics on 17 to 25-year-old people who could drive for up to two hours to a test centre and be pass their test—predominantly boys—they are a huge taken off-road to a piece of tarmac that the Government risk to themselves, other road users and their passengers. own to do an off-road test. They could fail the test, yet A frightening statistic shows that the riskiest thing a be allowed to drive two hours back, or whatever the lady aged 17 to 25 can do is to sit in the passenger seat distance is. The test was not fit for purpose, which is of a car with a 17 to 25-year-old boy of any description, why I have reviewed it. The whole test will be on the whether he is related to the lady or not. That is a road not off-road and will be done in one go, unlike the frightening thing. The system is not working, so we present on-road and off-road arrangement. That will must look at what the test involves. For someone to say, give motorcyclists the skills that will enable them to “That test centre has a better pass rate than that one so make progress, about which I have been talking in it should stay open,” is really looking at things from the relation to car drivers. The analogy is not there. wrong end of the telescope. We have recently changed As I have said, what is important—I will consider this the driving test to give young drivers in particular—and matter—is that if the waiting list is as great as the hon. other drivers—the skills that they need when they leave Gentleman says and it is blocked, these centres will not the test centre and they are sitting in a car on their own close until the capacity can be taken up in Dundee. I with no one telling them which way to go, and they have give that commitment today. We have to be in that not driven the route 100 times with their instructor. situation. However, I will consider the matter of block bookings by driving instructors who pre-book extensively Mr Weir: I do not disagree to a large extent with what and block up areas, so that there are no bookings the Minister is saying. I agree that there is sometimes a available for other people. serious problem with young drivers. I accept that a In the short period of time we have for the debate, let 10-minute independent drive is now part of the test, but us look, if we can, at what the test should be for and see does he not accept that if someone learns to drive in a if we can go forward fixated not with buildings, but congested city area and they are faced with the country with service to the community and the people who want roads of somewhere such as Angus or perhaps his own to take their test. constituency, they experience very different driving conditions that are perhaps not the appropriate David Mowat: I was hoping that the debate would driving conditions? It would be better if they understood touch on what I regard as the major issue, which is the the conditions in which they will be driving, at least in multi-test centres and other super-test centres. They the early months of their driving. became the policy of the previous Government because they over-interpreted an EU requirement regarding the Mike Penning: When someone passes their test, there motorcycle test. I believe that the Transport Committee, is no restriction at all on where they can drive in the inter alia, pointed out that that was wrong, did not country. Someone can pass their test in Angus, drive to need to happen and was an error, yet the concept of a the nearest dual carriageway on their own and go down super-test centre is being pursued. It sounds as though the motorway. I am also seriously considering how we that happened in Dundee and St Helens. One result of can give the relevant skills to young drivers who have that, which the Minister might want to comment on, is never driven on a motorway in their life, whether or not that motorcyclists have to travel even further for their someone is sat next to them. At the moment, they can test, and further back if they fail it. pass their test and go straight on the motorway. We must work on dealing with that. Mike Penning: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman has not The Select Committee, under the previous Administration, looked at the changes that have recently been made to had real concerns about how the motorcycle test was the driving test. We have dealt with the problem of fundamentally changed. It felt that the Government 243WH Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 18 JANUARY 2011 Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test 244WH Centres Centres had misinterpreted guidance on kilometres—in English, closures and I do not know how that one slipped motorcyclists had to do just under 31 miles an hour. I through the net. I also apologise on behalf of the DSA agree, fundamentally, with the Select Committee, which and the Department, because I am absolutely paranoid is why we have broken away from that. We have a pilot about writing to MPs when something happens in their at the moment and we have worked with the industry—the constituency. I think that it is very important that MPs testers, the unions and everybody out there—to get a are informed. I will look at the guidance on how the test that I hope is closer to fit for purpose. code of practice works. It is not difficult to consult on There is a fundamental difference, I am afraid, regarding these things; it is difficult to know how far to go, but it is the motorcycle test centres. A plethora of them appeared important that we do so. We must not, I stress, be all over the country. The big problem was finding fixated with buildings. Buildings deliver a service that suitable off-road facilities for part one of the test. I could be delivered in other ways. looked at that, and the review looked at it. It was farcical that we spent millions and millions of pounds Mr Weir: It is not a fixation about buildings; it is a building pieces of tarmac that, in the near future, we fixation about the service being available in the community. will have to sell off because we do not need them any If the Minister can tell me I am wrong I would be more. delighted to have further details, but what appears to be The key issue and the most important thing, to return happening is that the service has been removed from the to what I was saying, is not the building, the instructors, local community. People will still have to go to a building. Members of Parliament or Ministers, but the people That building will not be in Arbroath and Forfar, who take their test. The test has to be fit for purpose. I however, it will be in Dundee, and that will be severely am not at all worried about a drop in pass rates, because detrimental to the community. that would tell me something. For example, quite a few people think that their instructor is a qualified driving Mike Penning: The hon. Gentleman is right. Under instructor—very often, they are not. That is something the proposals, that is what will happen. There is not we need to look at to ensure that the public know full-time demand in his constituency, so we have a exactly who is qualified and who is not. We need to building sitting empty for three days of the week. That ensure that the test is fit for purpose, and we are doing a is a fact, and I cannot afford to do that in the present lot of work on that. situation. Going forward—I stress going forward—the The next stage is to ask why people who want to take proposals will be developed. It will take time; they will their test have to go to the instructor. Why can the have to be piloted and pushed forward in consultation instructor not come to them? The two test centres with the whole of the industry, whether testers or instructors, mentioned earlier, in Forfar and Arbroath, are open and relevant MPs, to ensure that there is proper debate. two days a week. Why is there not a facility, whatever It must be right that we offer services to the community. the demand is, for a tester to go people’s community That is what this is about. It is not about the buildings, two days a week? Why are we fixated with a Soviet as the hon. Gentleman said, it is about service to the system that means that people have to come to Government community. At the moment, in his constituency, the so that we can give them a piece of paper that says they service is being taken up on two days a week. That is can drive? That, to me, is the way forward. Other what I am told. If I am wrong, please write to me and countries around the world have looked at that and do tell me. The demand may be there, but the centres are not have test centres that are physically big. There are not operating for more than two days a week. That is test centres where instructors are based, and they then whereweare. go out into the community. That would alleviate many Given the cost and the really difficult fiscal situation of the concerns that the hon. Member for Angus has that we are in, which is the same in Scotland as it is in raised today—how far people have to go, the cost to the Wales, Northern Ireland and England, we have to ensure community, the risk to instructors and so on. Some of that all assets are being sweated as much as they can be. that fear is unfounded and I have touched on why, I will look carefully at the consultation. I will look especially given the developments in the test, but I am carefully at the amount of waiting times, but I think I more than willing to look at whether it is right, in the will find a lot of block bookings from the instructors 21st century, that if someone wants a piece of paper or the hon. Gentleman mentioned earlier. If it is a problem card that says that the Government say they can drive a of block bookings, we will have to address it. However, car, motorcycle or a lorry, they have to go into a if he waiting time is more than six weeks—more than Government building in Dundee, or wherever it happens the code of conduct says—they will not close until it is to be—in my case, in St Albans. inside six weeks. That is a commitment I give today. It is fit and proper to look closely at how the DSA What we all want, for all our constituents, is for the test works. I accept some of the criticisms. I have already to be fit for purpose, and for people to be able to enjoy said that I will look carefully at how the consultation the road, no matter what vehicle they pass their test on, process works. I would like to have been told. I apologise so that they are safe for themselves and others. At the to the hon. Member for Angus for not sending him a moment, I stress that we have a lot of work to do on the letter, because I write to everybody when there are test to make it fit for purpose in the 21st century. 245WH 18 JANUARY 2011 Young Carers 246WH

Young Carers often attached to young children who care for relatives? Authorities, whether school or social services, are often not aware of the work that they do to try to support 1.28 pm their family. That is why what York Young Carers does Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con): It is a pleasure is so valuable. to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Chope. I am delighted to have been granted the opportunity to secure a debate on the sensitive and Julian Sturdy: I agree entirely with those comments. somewhat emotional subject of young carers. The essence of the debate is to try to raise awareness. I Across our country, it is estimated that 700,000 young shall go into more detail later about the educational people support their mother, father, brother, sister or side and potential bullying, but my hon. Friend is right grandparent as a primary carer. Each and every one of that awareness is crucial. It is sad that the work of so those brave young people has a unique story to tell, and many young carers, not only in York but across the all of them face a range of difficulties as a result of the country, goes unrecognised. We must remember that, compassion and love that they show toward their cared-for and the essential contribution that they make not only relatives. As I am sure all new MPs will agree, attempting to their own family but to society as a whole. to visit as many community groups and local organisations The national focus of the “YoungCarers Revolution” as possible was, and remains, a key priority following campaign requires us to look at the state of play for last May’s general election. I was fortunate enough to young carers up and down the country more generally. be invited to visit York Young Carers last October. I In particular, I am extremely worried by research by the shall always remember meeting some of York’s most Princess Royal Trust for Carers which concludes that valuable young people. Listening to some of the young one in three young carers face educational difficulties, carers’ stories made me immensely proud to be one of while two in three experience bullying at school. the MPs of our great city of York. I cannot praise highly enough our young cares’ courage, compassion There can be no doubt that young carers live under and utter dedication to their role. huge pressure. As I have said, their roles and responsibilities are great and many. We must all expect that such The visit also opened my eyes to the vast responsibilities unenviable circumstances will, in most instances, have that young carers find placed on their shoulders at such an adverse effect on the time and ability of young carers a young age. Their wide-ranging roles include providing to contribute fully to their educational studies. With a physical and mental support, organising hospital visits, young carer’s first priority being the relative for whom paying bills, cooking meals, cleaning, organising medication they care, it is only right that schools and education and liaising with social workers. Given that the average providers understand and are sympathetic to their role. age of young carers is just 12 years, it is remarkable that One of the greatest frustrations outlined to me by York so many have the capacity to care while also studying at Young Carers was that too few people, including some school and developing emotionally themselves. teachers, fully appreciate the pressures, both time-wise In addition, my meeting gave me a fascinating insight and emotionally, under which young carers operate. into the tremendous work carried out by the York Sadly, 60% of young carers say that they would not be Young Carers charity, and I know that many other able to talk to a teacher about their caring role, which I charities across the country do similar things. I take this find disappointing. opportunity to highlight the dedication of the organisation’s staff and volunteers. From offering young carers one-to-one Given that the research by the Princess Royal Trust support to providing an environment where they can for Carers shows that some young carers spend up to come together to socialise, support each other and 50 hours a week carrying out their caring role in their share their experience, the charity is an invaluable source family home, the subject needs greater exposure. It is of support and stability for the young people. essential that schools not only show great understanding One of the most important support mechanisms that towards students who are carers, but take on the role of the charity provides is organising away-day trips. Young educating others about the pressures faced by their carers spend so much of their time acting with the peers. I know that Members on both sides of the House responsibility and maturity of adults that it is important fully support the “Stand Against Bullying” campaign, to remember that they are, in fact, just children themselves. and I hope that the Minister will be able to commit By providing trips and away days, charities such as York Government support to those who are working hard to Young Carers provide welcome relief from the everyday challenge negative attitudes in our classrooms. It is challenges of caring. For a brief period, young carers simply unacceptable that two out of three young carers are allowed to enjoy being children again. are subject to bullying, and I would welcome his thoughts on how central Government, in conjunction with local I would also like to draw attention to the “Young authorities and schools, can work in a co-ordinated Carers Revolution” media campaign set up by York manner to tackle that form of harassment. Young Carers to highlight the difficulties facing young carers across the country. A promotional DVD is available On the academic side, I urge all schools and colleges on YouTube, and I encourage all interested Members to to provide additional learning support to known young watch it to see for themselves what young carers go carers who may struggle with their grades as a result of through, and to hear about it through their own words. their responsibilities. I am concerned that a childhood of care can sometimes lead to limited options for the Gavin Williamson (South Staffordshire) (Con): I thank individual concerned as they move into adulthood. It my hon. Friend for securing this incredibly important would be a tragedy if that were to prove to be the case, debate. Does he agree that the work of York Young so I would like universities and employers to take a Carers is important because of the great stigma that is more informed view when being approached by those 247WH Young Carers18 JANUARY 2011 Young Carers 248WH who have spent a sizeable part of their learning years First, I support the report’s suggestion for young operating as carers. Ensuring accessibility to education, carers to be included in discussions of their relative’s higher study and employment for young carers is vital. treatment. Indeed, young carers in York raised that very As well as educational difficulties, young carers face issue with me when I met them last year. Our young struggles relating to additional social support and financial carers often know the most about the cared-for’s condition assistance. Less than a month ago—it might seem longer and yet, frequently, they are overlooked by health to some Members—the country was celebrating Christmas, professionals and GPs. I would be most grateful for the a wonderful festive season. As a father of two young Minister’s specific views on that, because it is an important children, I know how important it is to families and aspect of how young carers are dealt with by the medical children, yet it is at that time of year that the plight of profession. young carers can be captured most vividly. Secondly, as I have touched upon, it is essential that every school has a policy on provision of support for Sadly, more than one quarter of young carers had to pupils who are young carers. Such a measure would wrap their own Christmas presents, and one in five ensure that all teachers and education professionals found Christmas day tougher or sadder than the rest of were aware of the sensitive issues involved. the year because support services are reduced and family finances are under greater pressure. For most of Britain’s Thirdly, our health, mental and social services should children, Christmas day is an opportunity to relax, be encouraged to work together, to be more effective in enjoy presents, watch TV and share family time, but their offer of support not only to the cared-for but to more than one third of young carers spend more than the carer. I would be grateful if the Minister confirmed six hours carrying out their caring role on Christmas whether he has had any discussions with appropriate day itself. The chief executive of the Princess Royal agencies to promote any such increased co-operation. Trust for Carers stated: Lastly, the issue of funding is of great concern to “Many of the young carers we surveyed wished for their family many carers and related charities. As a firm supporter member to get better rather than get the latest toy. Sadly for them of the localism agenda and the Localism Bill—sadly, I Christmas is just like any other day.” did not get to speak yesterday, although I was one of My purpose in highlighting young carers’ difficulties the 52 who put in to speak—I strongly believe in providing during the festive period is not simply to praise their local authorities with greater flexibility about how best magnificent contribution, though that would be a worthy to spend their budgets. However, I urge local authorities, enough reason in itself, but to pick up on the amount of including City of York council, to prioritise the needs support that is available to them. Without question, a of young carers highly. number of fantastic social services staff work with Following the publication of the “MyCare” report, young carers across the country, but what worries me is the chief executive of the Princess Royal Trust for that, on average, it takes four years for young carers to Carers stated: receive any support at all. “The aim of this project is to help children’s services, education Such delays are often a result of fear or embarrassment. and mental health services to work together to better identify and Sadly, a culture of fear seems to be prevalent among support young carers, making the little changes to services that can make a huge difference to their lives.” young carers, and I can absolutely understand why. Asking for help is never easy, particularly if one fears That is a key point in the whole process. that their family home may be broken up or disrupted Some of the individual concerns that I have discussed as a result. It is the job of the authorities and the today might seem small or insignificant when viewed voluntary sector to break the cycle of fear, and I welcome alongside the wider social services agenda. However, for the new national carers strategy commitment to early our young carers, more recognition from health services, identification of carers. Such identification and the greater support from teachers, firmer guarantees about subsequent focus of support towards young carers are future support provision and simple understanding from essential. wider society would make their pressurised lives a bit The recent report commissioned by the Mental Health easier. Foundation in association with the Princess Royal Trust Having spoken with local experts, agencies and, more for Carers, “MyCare: The challenges facing young carers importantly, young carers themselves, I believe that the of parents with a severe mental illness”, found that issue could and should attract cross-party consensus young carers are at greater risk of isolation than any and action. Our young carers carry out remarkable other youth group. Also, many young carers lack the work, often in unimaginable circumstances and under information to understand a relative’s mental health tremendous pressure. We must do all we can to promote problems, and they disproportionately face their own their cause and to ease their burdens. physical and mental health risks. Britain’s young carers have spent their lives loving, I share the sentiments of the senior researcher at the supporting and caring for a member of their family. It is Mental Health Foundation, Dr Robotham, who led the now time that we begin to champion them, and to “MyCare” report: ensure that each and every young carer has a strong voice and clear access to as much support as possible. “While there are examples of good practice such as young carers’ support groups, much more needs to be done to meet young carers’ needs more effectively.” 1.43 pm That is an accurate assessment. The work of the York YoungCarers charity will, for example, be further enhanced The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education if some of the following report suggestions are implemented (Tim Loughton): It is a delight to serve under your locally and nationally. chairmanship again, Mr Chope. 249WH Young Carers18 JANUARY 2011 Young Carers 250WH

[Tim Loughton] have made it clear to me that they want their schools, GPs and the mental health and other health services I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for York with which their family members come into contact to Outer (Julian Sturdy) on securing the debate and on his be more supportive and more carer aware. My hon. exceedingly articulate and measured way of making a Friend made a good point, which young carers often strong case. I echo most of the sentiments in his excellent make to me, about how the doctor, social worker or speech, which I hope is heard more widely beyond professional from another agency, who is seeing the today’s not overly crowded Chamber. parent or whoever is being cared for, often talks over the I am pleased, in particular, to be here to respond as a head of the young person. Minister. As shadow Minister for Children, I took a If that young person has the day-to-day responsibility, particular interest in the subject, and I have met many that young person has some very grown-up responsibility groups of young carers and the organisations involved placed on them, they know an awful lot about their with them. I pay tribute to those various organisations, loved one’s situation, and they need to be talked to and some of which my hon. Friend has mentioned, for their involved in the process. That is a common plea, and my excellent and often unrecognised work in a really important hon. Friend is right to highlight the issue. Professionals, area, which affects many more children than some therefore, need to be more carer aware. Young carers estimates suggest. want professionals to recognise that the young carer, Supporting vulnerable children, including young carers, despite being a minor, will often be the responsible is, of course, a priority for the Government, which is person in the house and might understand better than why I am pleased to have the opportunity to articulate anyone what kind of support is needed and when. our approach to that subset of young people. Helping It is shocking that so many young people lose the to care for a family member is something that many opportunity to live a normal childhood because of their young people are happy and proud to do—it helps them caring role. Such young people are often hidden from to develop a sense of responsibility and skills that are everyone but their families. I agree with my hon. Friend important in later life. Such young people play an that all of us, including those services I mentioned absolutely vital role in their families and in society as earlier, need to be mindful of the impact that caring can a whole, for whom they save an awful lot of money. have on a young person’s education, training or employment They deserve our recognition and support. However, opportunities. Indeed, that is why providing carers with inappropriate or excessive levels of caring by young vital information about the illness or disability that they people—even if at their own behest—can put their and their family are coping with and involving them in education, training, social development or health at the decisions about how best to provide care and manage risk, preventing them from enjoying their childhood in their health is one of the key principles in the carers the same way as other children. Too many young carers strategy, “Recognised, valued and supported: next steps are trapped in harmful caring roles without much hope for the Carers Strategy”, to which my hon. Friend has of fulfilling their potential. That can be as a result of a referred. number of reasons: they do not recognise themselves I pay tribute to the Minister of State, Department of as young carers or, if they do, they do not seek help; Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and services are not identifying them as carers; or they fear Cheam (Paul Burstow), for the speed with which he and involving children’s services and outside agencies. his Department, with support from the Department for That is not, of course, the full picture. Thousands of Education and others in the Government, published the carers, through admirable resilience and sheer new strategy. I am pleased to say that carers’ views, determination, achieve so much despite the odds stacked including those of young carers, are very much at the against them. I have met many young carers, including heart of it. If we listened to the views of young carers, it at the annual young carers festival down in Southampton, would go a long way to helping them. which is organised by the Children’s Society—in particular, I shall take this opportunity to praise the young by Jenny Frank, who has devoted so much of her career carers in York for producing their “Young Carers to helping young carers—and by the YMCA Fairthorne Revolution” media campaign, and for the sterling work Group. I have attended for most of the 12 years that that they have done to raise awareness and reach out to that incredible festival has been running. I encourage young carers. They come to the annual festival and have my hon. Friend the Member for York Outer to attend, if interesting things to say. he can—it is usually on a weekend in July. I never cease The new carers strategy recognises that there are to be impressed by the commitment of the people hidden young carers. It sends out a strong signal that whom I meet there and their determination to do the effective support for young carers requires adult and best not only for the person they care for but often for children’s services, including health services, schools other members of their families, such as their brothers and the voluntary sector, to work together and prevent and sisters. Some of those young people have done all young carers from taking on harmful or excessive caring that and still succeeded at school and gone on to roles. The early intervention grant, worth £2.2 billion a university or successful employment, but not all of year over the period of the spending review, provides them cope so well. local authorities and their partners with the freedom I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for making the issue a and flexibility to decide how best to prioritise their priority and for finding time to meet the York Young resources in accordance with local demand. Carers—I shall certainly look at the group’s excellent The Government strongly believe that such support film on YouTube. As he has said, the life of a new should be targeted at those children and families who Member is at the call of many organisations wanting to are most in need, and I encourage local authorities to familiarise themselves with new MPs. However, young identify appropriate services for young carers and prioritise carers, such as those in my hon. Friend’s constituency, them. Local authorities can do that by adopting the 251WH Young Carers18 JANUARY 2011 Young Carers 252WH

“Working together to support young carers” programme, in the number of young carers in those families, and a which is a memorandum of understanding published 41% reduction in the number of young people for jointly by the Association of Directors of Adult Social whom caring was having a negative impact. Services and the Association of Directors of Children’s An improving picture is emerging as more young Services. The memorandum is unambiguous in stating people are referred to receive the support they need as a that no care package should rely on a young person result of their parents’ mental health or substance misuse taking on an inappropriate caring role. I urge local problems, and more schools are becoming aware of the authorities—including that of my hon. Friend—as does support that they need to provide. However, there is the Government’s carers strategy, to consider adopting much still to do, and a number of families will be facing that memorandum. a range of other complex problems. For example, research All too often, as an Ofsted report highlighted in 2009, highlights that family violence can be an issue at home. services do not work together effectively and young That is why I am pleased that on 10 December last year, carers fall through the gaps. Training can be an effective the Prime Minister announced a new national campaign way of raising awareness of young carers among for families with multiple problems. That campaign sets professionals who might not otherwise recognise that a out to support the most vulnerable 120,000 families, a young carer is involved. I am grateful for the work done number of whom will have a young person or persons in by the Children’s Society, the National Treatment Agency a caring role. It represents a new and determined effort for Substance Misuse, the Social Care Institute for to improve the lives of those families and those who live Excellence, and others, to train a range of professionals around them. It will trial innovative new approaches to be more carer aware. to providing tailored support to the whole family where there are complex problems, and it will provide personalised There is already much good practice in this area, and and holistic support to help a family deal with its I join my hon. Friend in saluting the dedication of problems. I look forward to seeing the benefits of that staff—including thousands of volunteers—who through new approach. hundreds of young carer projects, mostly in the voluntary From a young carer’s perspective, schools are arguably sector, provide young carers with the respite and one-to-one the local service with which they have the most contact support that they need, giving them the opportunity to and which play the greatest role in helping them. Young take part in activities or go on breaks with friends with carers have told us that they want their schools to be whom they can share their experiences. Often, young more supportive and understanding about their caring people who find themselves as carers need to get together role and education, and I support that. Young carers with other young people in a similar situation who can want teaching staff to recognise that they may need appreciate, understand and sympathise with the challenges flexible learning arrangements and additional support. they face at home. It is about having the opportunity to That is a major issue, and it comes up when I go to take an evening off to go and see a film with other conferences and meet people. Young carers need an people, or to go bowling, or whatever. There are lots of understanding teacher who knows the demands on interesting projects, largely set up through the Children’s them and can put in a word if, for some good reason, Society by Jenny Frank and others, and we have entertained homework is in late or it is necessary to be in telephone many such projects in this House over the years. They contact with a doctor or another professional because a could be something simple that make young carers feel relative has taken a turn for the worse, or whatever. that they are not alone and that other people understand Good practice is for each school to designate somebody and look out for them. in that role, but that does not always happen. The voluntary sector plays a vital role in supporting Although many schools have systems in place to those young people, and I am pleased that through the support young carers and have a lead person to support innovation fund, the National Young Carers Coalition them, that does not happen enough. Some schools may is extending the support that it provides to the whole like to consider whether a governor should have an family. The carers centre in York is another example of oversight role, just as we recommend for children in the a voluntary sector project that provides invaluable support. care system who have particular requirements. To increase the support available to young carers in schools, the It is not for Government to micro-manage and prescribe Department for Education is working closely with the what is best for local authorities—local authorities should Department of Health to provide the National Young know what is most appropriate for their residents and Carers Coalition with an e-learning module for teachers communities. Practice and approach, however, varies and staff as part of the healthy schools approach to across the country and I am committed to encouraging help better identify and support young carers. the sharing of best practice—something that we are often not terribly good at—so that all areas in the Another issue that affects young carers—I am aware country can share knowledge about what works from of the research by the Princess Royal Trust for Carers areas that are doing well. I am pleased that the Princess that my hon. Friend has mentioned—is bullying. Royal Trust for Carers, which my hon. Friend has Unacceptably, and incredibly, nearly two thirds of young mentioned, will, on behalf of the National YoungCarers carers are bullied at school. Perhaps they are often late, Coalition, showcase the learning from the innovation do not have time to take part in social activities or do fund. not dress in the same way as others. All those things can mark them out as different from their peers. The My Department has already made available the interim Government, the Secretary of State for Education and findings from the young carer pathfinders scheme. It I, take that issue very seriously. It is unacceptable for shows that where intensive support was co-ordinated by any child to be victimised, and even more so when they a key worker and focused around the family, between have the responsibilities of a young carer on their entry and exit from the project, there was a 35% reduction shoulders. 253WH Young Carers18 JANUARY 2011 Young Carers 254WH

[Tim Loughton] this debate and the other initiatives for young carers, such as the fantastic weekend at Fairthorne manor and We can be proud of the vast majority of young the meetings in which we speak to young carers to people, but when bullies are identified we cannot just understand their problems from the sharp end and look suspend them for a couple of days and allow them to at how better we can accommodate them, will raise the saunter back into school to torment their victims again. profile of this issue, so that more people recognise the We will put head teachers and teachers back in control particular challenges faced by those young people. and give them a range of tough new powers to deal with The Department for Education will continue to work bullies. Head teachers will be able to take a zero-tolerance closely with the voluntary sector and local authorities approach and will have the final say. We trust that head to break down barriers to supporting young carers and teachers will use those powers but I hope they do not their families effectively, which is the least we can do. have to. By educating young people to appreciate, respect We have a duty as a society to help those people, and and empathise with the pressures on people who, through frankly it is a false economy both socially and financially no fault of their own, find themselves in an adult caring not to do that as actively as possible. I congratulate my role, I hope that we can eradicate that completely hon. Friend on raising this subject and putting his case unacceptable form of bullying. so strongly. I hope that he is a convert, an advocate and When bullying occurs, schools need to respond promptly an ambassador for the issue of young carers, and that and firmly. They need to apply disciplinary sanctions he will ensure that as many people in his constituency—and and work with bullies so that they are held to account beyond—are aware of the challenges faced and do their for their actions and accept responsibility for the harm bit to make the role of young carers as easy as possible. they have caused. Schools must also support those who Question put and agreed to. are being bullied and, above all, they must educate bullying out of the school and classroom. All of us in 1.59 pm society have a responsibility in that area. I hope that Sitting adjourned. 29WS Written Ministerial Statements18 JANUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 30WS Written Ministerial Review of draft National Reform Programmes (NRPs) There will be an exchange of views on member states’ draft national reform programmes (NRPs), which set Statements out member states’ reform priorities and plans and were submitted to the Commission in November. Full NRPs are due in April. The Government believe that the focus Tuesday 18 January 2011 of the NRPs should be on tackling bottlenecks to growth. Communication from the Commission: towards a Single TREASURY Market Act There will be an exchange of views on the Single Market Act, which was published on 27 October 2010, ECOFIN (18 January 2011) and is out for consultation until 28 February 2011. The Government support the single market and believe that future reforms should be strongly focused on measures The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne): which encourage growth. The Economic and Financial Affairs Council will be held in Brussels on 18 January 2011. The following items are on the agenda: Double Taxation Convention (United Kingdom and Mauritius) Presentation of the Presidency Work Programme The Hungarian presidency will present its ECOFIN work programme for the first half of 2011. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Follow-up to the December European Council meeting Gauke): A new protocol to the Double Taxation Convention Council will discuss the outcomes of the European with Mauritius was signed at Port Louis on 10 January Council, where leaders agreed on a permanent mechanism 2011. to be established by euro area member states to safeguard The text of the protocol has been deposited in the the financial stability of the euro area as whole. The Libraries of both Houses and made available on Government achieved their priorities on the European HM Revenue and Customs’ website. The text will be stability mechanism: that it will be for only euro area scheduled to a draft Order in Council and laid before member states; replace the European financial stability the House of Commons in due course. facility (EFSF) and the European financial stabilisation mechanism (EFSM); and that in the future, article 122(2) TFEU will not be used for safeguarding the financial CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT stability of the euro area. Implementation of the Stability and Growth Pact Transfer of Royal Parks Agency The Council will discuss the assessment of action taken by Malta in the context of its excessive deficit procedure on the basis of a communication from the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Commission. Actions taken by other member states Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose): I am publishing could also be assessed on the basis of the Commission’s today a statement regarding the transfer of the management autumn economic forecast and the fiscal notifications. of the eight royal parks and the Royal Parks Agency The Government expect the Council to agree that Malta (RPA) from the Department for Culture, Media and has taken effective action regarding its deficit, in line Sport (DCMS) to the Authority (GLA). with Council recommendations. The current arrangements and the intended change Introduction of the euro in Estonia: Practical experience It is not widely known that managing the royal parks In line with past practice, the Council will have an in London is the responsibility of a central Government exchange of views following the introduction of the Department, on behalf of the Queen. The team that euro in Estonia on 1 January 2011. runs the royal parks and reports to the Secretary of Annual Growth Survey State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport is known The adoption by the European Commission of the as the Royal Parks Agency (TRP). We are proud of the annual growth survey will mark the beginning of the work the agency has done for Londoners and for visitors first cycle of the European semester. From now on, to London. The royal parks are well known across the every year the Commission will present its growth survey world and spending time in the parks is an essential part covering fiscal, structural and macroeconomic issues. of a visit to the capital. This communication, which will be presented to the This statement is about how the parks will be made European Parliament and the Council, will serve as a more accountable to the public through the Mayor. The basis for the guidelines and conclusions drawn up by Government do not propose any major changes in the March European Council with a view to the medium- relation to how the parks should be managed, the term budgetary strategies and national reform programmes standards to which they should be maintained, and to be adopted in April. The Government are content what should be on offer in the parks to the public. Prior with this approach, given that they secured special to transfer this will be summarised in a framework wording in the new code of conduct which allows the agreement. The royal parks are a cherished part of our UK to submit its budget to the EU after it has been national heritage as well as being a priceless resource approved by Parliament, rather than in draft, as will be for Londoners and visitors to London. That is understood the case for other member states. by all involved in the proposed transfer of management. 31WS Written Ministerial Statements18 JANUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 32WS

At the moment the main line of accountability through The Government do not propose to divide up the Parliament is through Ministers and the Department royal parks into separate parks operated by individual for Culture, Media and Sport. We intend that in future . The Government’s aim is to strike this accountability should be through London’s Mayor an appropriate balance between decentralising power since all the royal parks are in London. The Mayor is a and maintaining the integrity of this historic estate. well known figure who is elected every four years and is Greater accountability for the royal parks will be introduced held accountable by Londoners for what he achieves for at the level of London-wide government, where all the London and for visitors to London. Managing the competing interests can be best addressed. The Mayor royal parks would also fit well with the Mayor’s existing is accountable to people who live and work in the responsibility for tourism in London as well as his immediate vicinity of the parks. He is also accountable strategic responsibilities for the environment in London. to Londoners from other areas who use the parks, and As a result, we are proposing that the current Royal he is responsible for the quality and interest of what Parks Agency team would become part of the Greater London as a whole contributes to the UK and offers London Authority (GLA) and report to the Mayor. tourists and visitors. The Mayor has recognised the The GLA would have day-to-day responsibility for strong interest of the royal household and the London maintaining and managing the royal parks, including boroughs in the good management of the parks and is fulfilling statutory obligations. The Government will considering options for a new governance structure for need to legislate when the opportunity arises to give the the parks as a whole which will offer them a stake in a GLA equivalent management powers to those that the new supervisory board. Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and The devolution of management responsibility for the Sport currently exercises, and to make other provisions royal parks to the GLA will also mean that there will be needed to give effect to the policies set out in this greater scrutiny of the management of royal parks on a statement. regular basis. The will be able to The Royal Parks hold the actions of the Mayor to account and will have the power to summon officials and seek information. There are eight royal parks managed by the agency, all within Greater London: Retaining oversight where there is a national interest ; It is recognised that the royal parks are national assets and there may be occasions when it is still necessary The ; for the Government to be able to ensure that national , interests are safeguarded. The Secretary of State will Hyde Park; have reserve powers to intervene if it appears that the national interest might be compromised. For example it ; will be essential to ensure that the current use of the The Regent’s Park including ; parks and their roads for national ceremonial occasions Richmond Park; and should continue in a manner which befits their status. Such events must always be given priority over local St. James’s Park. matters or other events. This is one example of where The Royal Parks Agency currently also manages the Secretary of State will be able to ensure, through a other land in central London, such as Victoria Tower power of intervention, that the royal parks continue to Gardens, Grosvenor Square Garden, and Brompton be managed in the national interest and will be able to Cemetery, which are not part of the royal parks themselves. ensure that future management is not inconsistent with, The Government are developing proposals with the nor undermines, the significance or status of the royal parks. GLA and others who, in place of the Royal Parks Regulation making powers Agency, will be best placed to take responsibility for these open spaces and structures and monuments within Currently, under the Parks Regulations (Amendment) them in future. Act 1926, the Secretary of State makes regulations that he considers necessary for securing the proper management Management of the parks of the parks. The principal regulations are the Royal The royal parks are owned by Her Majesty the Queen Parks and Other Open Spaces Regulations 1997, and in right of the Crown. The parks were, in the main, these cover matters such as the hours of opening of a originally royal hunting grounds and pleasure gardens park or of particular parts of it, carrying on any trade and were subsequently made over for public use. The or business in the park, the conduct of persons using royal parks are part of the historic Crown lands and the park as regards, for example, littering, climbing were put under the management of the Secretary of trees, lighting fires, damaging property and keeping State’s predecessor in the middle of the 19th century. control of animals. These regulations are subject to the The general power of management of the parks approval of Parliament. If any person fails to comply currently exercised by the Secretary of State for Culture, with, or acts in contravention of, any regulations, he is Olympics, Media and Sport derives from the power guilty of an offence against the Parks Regulation Act granted by section 22 of the 1851 1872 and is liable on summary conviction to a penalty. (“the 1851 Act”) to the Commissioners of Works. Day- The regulations are enforced by the Metropolitan police. to-day management is carried out on behalf of the We intend to create an equivalent bye-law making power Secretary of State by the Royal Parks Agency, led by its for the GLA. Instead of an approval by Parliament it chief executive. We propose that the Royal Parks Agency would be subject to confirmation from the Secretary of would no longer be an Executive agency of the DCMS State for Culture, Media and Sport. but instead become an integral but distinct part of the Section 62 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act provides GLA. Crown ownership of the royal parks would be that regulations may also be made by the Secretary of maintained. State for imposing and recovering charges for leaving 33WS Written Ministerial Statements18 JANUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 34WS vehicles, or vehicles of any class, in the park. These that the transfer will not take place until post 2012 to regulations are subject to the approval of Parliament. minimise disruption to the Olympic and Paralympic games; We intend to create an equivalent byelaw making power the level of funding the GLA will receive from the Government for the GLA. Instead of an approval by Parliament it will be agreed at the outset but is subject to future spending would be subject to confirmation by the Secretary of reviews; and State for Culture, Media and Sport. monitoring arrangements will need to be put in place post transfer to ensure that any teething problems are dealt with. Summary of the benefits of the transfer By transferring responsibility to the GLA, reporting to London’s Mayor, we intend to ensure clear democratic accountability to Londoners on the management and HOME DEPARTMENT operation of these historic parks and open spaces. Through the Mayor, there would be a visible public Alcohol Sales (Coalition Commitment) champion for the royal parks. Better accountability is likely to lead to management that is more responsive to the needs and expectations of park users and local The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the people. Home Department (James Brokenshire): Today, we are We intend the GLA to have the opportunity to include announcing our intention to deliver on this commitment the future management of the parks in the broader by introducing a ban on sales of alcohol below the rate plans which the Mayor develops for London. There will of duty plus VAT. be close links to London-wide policy on a range of The Government acknowledge the growing concern issues which affect the parks including planning, transport, over how cheaply some alcohol drinks are being sold, environment, tourism and sport. The Mayor will be well and they are themselves concerned about the link between placed to seek out opportunities for private sector support alcohol and crime and disorder—in many cases as a for the parks. The Mayor recognises that for successful result of “pre-loading” in preparation for a night out. transfer of management of the royal parks there is a need to ensure: As part of our consideration of how to deliver the coalition commitment to deliver a ban on below cost the national importance of the royal parks continues to be sales, the Home Office and Treasury have carried out recognised; respective reviews of alcohol pricing and taxation. These the identity and character of the royal parks, which underpins confirmed a consensus that pricing controls can be an their importance to local residents and visitors, is not adversely effective way of both improving public health and reducing affected; violent crime. the high quality of the royal parks and their unique identity Banning the sale of alcohol below the rate of duty is maintained and enhanced where possible; plus VAT is the best starting point for tackling the the wide range of interests within, and uses of the royal availability of cheap alcohol and will send a clear signal parks continue to be recognised and valued; to retailers and the public that Government take this the management of the eight royal parks is retained by a issue seriously. They will effectively set a minimum level single administration; and below which alcoholic products cannot be sold and will local representation is adequately accounted for. stop the worst instances of deep discounting which result in alcohol being sold both cheaply and harmfully. A policy framework will set out the parameters in Importantly this system will have a limited burden on which the GLA manage the parks. business and can be delivered at low cost to the taxpayer. There are a number of conditions which will be built We intend to take forward measures to deliver this into the framework. Key issues this will address include: commitment without delay subject to the Government’s the parks must be managed on behalf of the nation as a regulatory assessment and clearance process. whole; the royal parks management structure will be an integral but a distinct part of the GLA; JUSTICE it is likely a board will be established to manage the parks. This is likely to comprise a chair appointed by the . Members appointed by the Mayor are likely to include representatives from the London boroughs and a Freedom of Information: Commencement of member appointed by or on behalf of the sovereign; Certain Provisions the natural and built features must be maintained to a high standard; The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice that the GLA must consult widely on any major changes to (Mr Kenneth Clarke): On Friday 7 January 2011, the the royal parks; Ministry of Justice announced the Government’s plans that the GLA continue to honour the informal arrangements to extend the scope of the Freedom of Information made by TRP with the royal household and the Army in (FOI) Act and to further increase transparency in public relation to ceremonial use of the parks which should have affairs. The Government will bring forward a number of overriding priority; measures to bring those plans into effect: quiet recreation by the public remains the parks’ primary We will introduce a section 5 order under the Freedom of use; Information Act in the spring to bring the Association of that there will be no negative impacts on delivery of the 2012 Chief Police Officers, the Financial Ombudsman Service Olympic and Paralympic games, the Diamond Jubilee, and the University and Colleges Admissions Service within ceremonial and other state events; the Act’s scope. 35WS Written Ministerial Statements18 JANUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 36WS

We will also consult a range of further bodies with a view to transferred from the Secretary of State for Business, their inclusion in the Act by a further section 5 order later Innovation and Skills to the Secretary of State for this year. This includes bodies as diverse as Examination Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport. Boards, Harbour Authorities, the Local Government Association and the NHS Confederation. This includes: We will amend section 6 of the FOI Act in the Freedom Bill merger and competition cases in these sectors; to end the anomaly where companies wholly owned by a sponsorship of the telecoms sector, mobile and fixed; single public authority are subject to the Act but those sponsorship of all content industries, including computer wholly owned by more than one public authority are not. We games and publishing; will also introduce measures to enhance the independence of telecoms policy, including implementation of the EU framework; the Information Commissioner’s Office in the same Bill. broadband policy and delivery (including Broadband Delivery We will ensure that, starting from 2013, Government and UK); other public records are made available at the National Archives or other places of deposit 10 years sooner than at internet policy and governance, including implementation of present by commencing amendments to the Public Records the Digital Economy Act; Act to reduce the 30-year rule to a 20-year rule. In tandem, spectrum; we will also commence amendments to the FOI Act to BT Pension Crown Guarantee; reduce the time some types of information—including responsibility for sponsorship of Ofcom (except in relation information contained in court records, and relating to to postal regulation); and ministerial correspondence and policy formulation—may be full responsibility for the digital TV switchover and digital withheld. radio action plan. Finally, we will also conduct a process of post-legislative The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and scrutiny of the FOI Act to see how well the Act is working in practice and whether further changes should be made. It is Skills will retain responsibility for postal regulation; important that this review of legislation, designed to promote sponsorship of telecoms equipment manufacturing and openness and transparency, is itself undertaken in a transparent the wider electronics, IT services and software sectors. way and with the involvement of Parliament. He will also continue to work with the Cabinet Office as The measures outlined above will increase transparency. part of the national cyber-security programme. However, we must also ensure that information which it The Minister for Culture, Communications and Creative is not in the public interest to release is properly protected, Industries, formerly a joint Minster, will now report and that we have proper regard to this country’s long- solely to the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, standing constitutional conventions. It is for this reason Media and Sport. He will continue to work closely with that on 16 January 2011, I made a commencement Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation order to bring into effect changes made in the Constitutional and Skills. Reform and Governance Act 2010 to enhance the protection for information relating to communications with the royal family and royal household. The changes provide TRANSPORT an absolute instead of a qualified exemption for information relating to communications with the sovereign, heir to Driving Standards Agency (Cardiff) the throne or second in line to the throne or those acting on their behalf. The exemption for other members of the royal family and members of the royal household The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport remains qualified. The lifespan of the exemption changes (Mike Penning): The Driving Standards Agency (DSA) from 30 to 20 years or the lifetime of the relevant is responsible for setting standards and conducting member of the royal family plus five years, whichever is theory and practical driving tests for motorists in England longer. and Wales. The DSA is a trading fund which is funded This amendment to the FOI Act is necessary to by the fees received from customers, which are set at a protect the long-standing conventions surrounding the level to recover its costs. The DSA therefore has a duty monarchy and its records, for example the sovereign’s to ensure its costs are kept at the minimum possible right and duty to counsel, encourage and warn her level in the interests of its customers, while maintaining Government, as well as the heir to the throne’s right to standards of service. That means being as efficient as be instructed in the business of Government in preparation possible in every area of work and considering closely for their future role as monarch. The changes will come any areas of spending which may not be necessary into force tomorrow. Following a review of its operations the DSA has Copies of the Constitutional Reform and Governance decided to close its area office at Caradog House in Act 2010 (Commencement No. 4 and Saving Provision) Cardiff. Order 2011 (SI 2011 No. 46 (C. 3)) have been placed in The office has 87 staff who provide administrative the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office. support for DSA within Wales, the south of England and London areas—mainly in deployment of examiners, customer service and test centre property management PRIME MINISTER and procurement activities. Staff have been informed of the decision. There will Competition and Policy (Media, Broadcasting, now be a period of consultation with trade unions. The Digital and Telecoms Sectors) consultation will be completed by 19 April 2011. Possible redeployment options for the staff concerned are being explored. It is intended to retain a small office The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron): Responsibility to support some operational staff in the area. Other for all competition and policy issues relating to media, responsibilities will be transferred to DSA’s headquarters broadcasting, digital and telecoms sectors has been in Nottingham and northern area office in Newcastle. 37WS Written Ministerial Statements18 JANUARY 2011 Written Ministerial Statements 38WS

Closure of Caradog House will not affect testing the shores of the whole island of Ireland for hundreds provision in Wales and the DSA will continue to provide of years. The organisation has come to symbolise the services under its agreed Welsh language scheme. close friendship and shared history of our nations. For many years, the funding of the Commissioners of Irish Lights work has been a joint undertaking, its costs Commissioners of Irish Lights being met primarily from light dues income from commercial shipping raised in both our jurisdictions and paid into the general lighthouse fund. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport This funding mechanism has been the subject of (Mike Penning): In my statement to the House on debate for a number of years and there have been calls marine aids to navigation of 26 July 2010, Official to facilitate a more equitable arrangement, whereby the Report, columns 75-76WS, I said that the Government costs of the work of the Commissioners in the Republic believe a solution needs to be found as soon as possible of Ireland are funded solely from sources of income to the imbalance of funding for marine aids to navigation there. in the Republic of Ireland. I am pleased to inform the The Irish Transport Minister and I have reached an House that the Irish Transport Minister and I have now understanding that we will aim to see the Commissioners reached an understanding on the reform of the funding of Irish Lights self-financing by 2015-16. This understanding of the Commissioners of Irish Lights. will facilitate the long-term sustainable funding of the The Commissioners of Irish Lights is the general Commissioners of Irish Lights and ensure the continued lighthouse authority which has provided marine aids to co-operation of the United Kingdom and Republic of navigation for the benefit of mariners visiting and passing Ireland in the provision of marine aids to navigation.

615W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 616W

(Mr Osborne) has confirmed that he is currently in Written Answers to discussions with the major banks to ensure that they lend materially and verifiably more than they were Questions planning to the businesses of Britain—especially the small businesses—so that they can grow and create jobs this year. Monday 17 January 2011 In addition, over £1.3 billion of loans have been [Continued from column 614W] offered to SMEs through the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, which has been extended to 2014-15, with £600 million available this year.

BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for Banks: Incentives Business, Innovation and Skills if he will consider in his review of banking in the UK the effect on lending availability in the Northern Ireland market of (a) the John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for restricted number of banking providers and (b) the Business, Innovation and Skills on which occasions he effects on that market of the situation of banks has discussed with the chief executives of (a) Royal operating in the market which are headquartered in the Bank of Scotland Group, (b) Lloyds Banking Group Republic of Ireland. [33702] and (c) Barclays (i) the bonuses paid to their staff and (ii) their personal bonus since 1 December 2010. Mr Prisk: The Government have set up the Independent [34026] Commission on Banking to review the structure of the UK banking sector and address financial stability and Mr Prisk: Ministers meet bank executives on a range competition. The Commission is due to present a final of issues and that it is not the Governments practice to report of independent recommendations to the Government provide details of all such discussions. in September. Banks: Loans We need to see more competition in the banking sector and foster greater choice. Specifically, the OFT’s Naomi Long: To ask the Secretary of State for recent review of barriers to entry, exit and expansion in Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward retail banking found that proposals to establish targets for banks in the area of “brand loyalty to incumbent national brands in Scotland and business support; and if he will make a statement. Northern Ireland may be greater than elsewhere in the UK”1. [33013] The Independent Commission will take into account the findings of previous investigations into competition Mr Prisk: We have been working closely with the in markets for financial services, including the OFT main UK banks through the British Bankers Association report mentioned above. to ensure they deliver the commitments made as part of their response to the Government’s Green Paper “Financing We are in discussions with the banks to see if we can a Private Sector Recovery”. I welcome the work so far reach an agreement whereby banks treat customers from the banks, particularly the commitment to support fairly, and commit to lend materially and verifiably a network of mentors for small businesses, the funding more than they were planning to the businesses of of new independent survey of business lending and the Britain—especially small businesses, across all the £1.5 billion Business Growth Fund for growing small regions—so that they can grow and create jobs. and mid-sized businesses. In addition the coalition The effects on the market specifically relating to agreement stated that Government would consider net banks headquartered in the Republic of Ireland are lending agreements among other options in order to not within the scope of the terms of reference ensure access to finance for viable businesses. This established last summer by the Independent remains the case. Commission on Banking. However, these terms of reference state that the Commission will formulate policy Michael Connarty: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendations with a view Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment “reducing systemic risk in the banking sector, exploring the he has made of the adequacy of loan facilities for small risk posed by banks of different size, scale and function”. businesses. [33279] The Government will continue to closely monitor the situation in Ireland in-line with the action and assistance Mr Prisk: SME lending data collected by BIS shows package which was announced by the Chancellor last that demand for credit remains at historically low levels. November. However, the large majority of SME applications for 1 finance are successful. The Government continues to The Competition Commission also carried out a market investigation into Personal Current Accounts in Northern Ireland in 2007. monitor the situation closely, and have conversations with both small business representatives and banks on this issue—through channels such as the Small Business Business: Females Economic Forum. While continuing to encourage lending to viable SMEs, Mrs Grant: To ask the Secretary of State for the Government have agreed lending commitments with Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his RBS and Lloyds which will be in place up until March 2011. Department is taking to increase the number of women My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer entrepreneurs in the South East. [33888] 617W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 618W

Mr Prisk: The coalition Government are committed Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation to making this decade the most entrepreneurial and and Skills is leading and co-ordinating a long term dynamic in our history. project across Whitehall looking at all areas of employment We believe that aspiration needs to be raised amongst legislation in all the relevant Departments to ensure women to ensure that they see starting a business as a that employment laws provide the flexibility that businesses viable career option. This will best be achieved longer need to grow without compromising fairness to employees. term by embedding enterprise awareness in mainstream I am mindful that small firms can experience difficulty education. in understanding and complying with employment The Government are also currently reforming the legislation and the review will certainly consider such way in which start-ups and existing businesses access issues. the support and information that they need. We are Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for establishing a modern, streamlined and efficient system Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to of providing information and guidance to all. amend employment laws affecting the smallest More information on the Government’s position is companies. [33727] available at: http://www.bis.gov.uk/assets/biscore/enterprise/docs/b/11-515- Mr Davey: The Department for Business, Innovation bigger-better-business-helping-small-firms.pdf and Skills is leading and co-ordinating a long term project across Whitehall looking at all areas of employment Business: Internet legislation in all the relevant Departments. I am mindful that small firms can experience difficulty in complying Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for with employment legislation and the review will certainly Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking consider such issues. to facilitate the growth of small and medium-sized businesses which are dependent on the internet for their EU Law sales growth. [32990] : To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: As part of the transformational ICT pilot Business, Innovation and Skills what legal advice his programme, BIS has been testing a number of business Department has sought on the routine copying out of support options in different regions to identify and EU directives directly into UK law; whether this advice address issues that deter SMEs from adopting digital differs from previous legal advice obtained from within technology and hence fail to benefit from the productivity Government resources; and if he will make a and competitiveness benefits it offers. statement. [32573] As a result, we have identified a need to provide tools to up-skill SMEs and enable them to be “intelligent Mr Prisk: As a matter of routine, this Department is customers”. We are now looking into the scope for able to draw on legal advice as and when necessary. developing a number of tools, such as a business IT Details of any advice provided are confidential and guide, training modules and a diagnostic tool to be attract Legal Professional Privilege. delivered nationally online to encourage SMEs to integrate the web and associated internet e-commerce activities Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for across all parts of their business. Business, Innovation and Skills which organisations he There are also a number of private initiatives to help consulted on his proposal to adopt as routine the SMEs, including Google’s ‘Getting British Business practice of copying out the text of EU directives as a Online’. This collaboration between Google, Enterprise means of implementing them in UK law. [32574] UK, BT, and e-skills UK, with the support of this Department, aims to help small businesses create their Mr Prisk: Under its Guiding Principles for EU legislation, first website and understand the opportunities offered the Government will use copy out for transposition by the internet. Over 100,000 UK organisations have where it is available, except where doing so would adversely already been helped to set up their first website easily affect UK interests. This will help implement the coalition and for free. The initiative includes help for businesses commitment to end ‘gold-plating’ of EU rules, so that on how to market on the web and use search engine British businesses are not disadvantaged relative to optimisation to increase the number of customer visits their European competitors. to their website. Export Credit Guarantees: Sudan More generally, we are focusing our resources on improving small business performance and growth by Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for investing in a universal service for all businesses, including Business, Innovation and Skills in respect of what those operating online. The new service will be delivered projects in Sudan supported by the Export Credits via the web and a contact centre, and changes include Guarantee Department (ECGD) in the last 30 years modernising the provision of online information so debt is owed to the ECGD. [33178] web-connected businesses can access what they need, when they need it. Mr Prisk: Sudan defaulted on its external debts in the late 1970s and ECGD has no record of providing Business: Regulation support for any projects since then. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Lisa Nandy: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring forward Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) interest and proposals to exempt small businesses from employment (b) charges are added to the debt owed by Sudan to the regulations. [33430] Export Credits Guarantee Department. [33213] 619W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 620W

Mr Prisk: Sudan’s external debts were rescheduled proportion of the total number of British postgraduate under four bilateral debt agreements between 1979 and research students at each institution, (d) by subject (i) 1984. No payments have been received since May 1984. in total and (ii) as a proportion of the total number of The total interest that has accrued up to 31 December British postgraduate research students of each subject 2010 on the defaulted amount of £173 million is and (e) by institution by subject (i) in total and (ii) as a £491 million. proportion of that total; and if he will make a Sudan is a heavily indebted poor country (HIPC) and statement. [33780] it is the Government’s policy not to seek payment of debts owed by HIPCs. Mr Willetts: The data we hold only allow us to track the progression of school pupils to age 19. At this age, Exports: Higher Education those individuals who have progressed to UK HE are unlikely to have reached postgraduate study and there Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for were none in the latest data for 2007/08. There is no Business, Innovation and Skills what estimate he has information giving a breakdown of postgraduate students made of the amount generated by UK higher by eligibility for free school meals when they were education institutions in export earnings (a) in total, younger. (b) by each higher education institution as a Graduates: Training proportion of the total and (c) in total as a proportion of UK export earnings in each of the last 10 years; and Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State if he will make a statement. [33779] for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will assess the merits of introducing a training wage for interns; and if Mr Willetts: Universities UK have estimated the gross he will make a statement. [33470] value of exports earnings by UK higher education institutions (HEIs) to be £2.7 billion in 1999/2000, Mr Davey: Government considered the proposal to £3.6 billion in 2003/04 and £5.3 billion in 2007/08. introduce a training wage for interns mirroring the As a proportion of UK export earnings, these represent minimum wage rate for apprentices, but decided not to 1.0% in 1990/00, 1.2% in 2003/04 and 1.5% in 2007/08 implement it. of the total. We recognise the importance of ensuring that those Estimates for each HEI are not available. interns who are eligible to be paid receive at least the It should be noted that estimates of HE exports from appropriate NMW rate. We are working to update our Universities UK are not wholly consistent with total guidance on the payment of work experience and interns UK exports which are from official ONS statistics. to ensure that individuals and employers are clear about When estimating the approximate UK shares, no their rights and responsibilities, as well as ensuring that adjustments have been made to account for methodological enforcement continues to be effective. differences in the two sources. Internships have no legal definition and rarely result in a qualification. In this they differ from apprenticeships Graduates which are formal programmes of learning that result in recognised qualifications. It is much more difficult to David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for work out who is genuinely an intern in different Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his organisations and to make the case that interns are Department is taking to ensure that graduates have significantly different from other workers. The proposal both practical and academic skills. [33271] for an interns’ training wage does not fully acknowledge that some interns are already entitled to a minimum Mr Willetts: Close contact between employers and wage. the higher education sector is crucial to ensuring that graduates gain the skills needed to enter their chosen Green Investment Bank fields within industry. For example, work experience opportunities provided by employers enable graduates Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for to use their academic knowledge as well as gain practical Business, Innovation and Skills pursuant to his answer and real life skills in a working environment. of 9 November 2010, Official Report, columns To promote this activity further, last summer the 297-98W, on the Green Investment Bank, what asset coalition asked all universities to introduce employability sales the Government is considering to provide funding statements reflecting the importance of helping graduates for the proposed Green Investment Bank. [33363] ready for the world of work. We intend to build further on this work in forthcoming higher education White Mr Prisk: The Government have committed to using Paper. proceeds from some asset sales to complement the funding of £1 billion from departmental budgets for the Graduates: Disadvantaged Green Investment Bank (GIB), as set out in the spending review statement. It has not reached firm decisions Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for about which asset sales will provide proceeds for the Business, Innovation and Skills how many GIB. postgraduate research students in the UK who were I am unable to provide commercially sensitive information British citizens received free school meals (a) in total, on individual asset sales, including our expectations on (b) as a proportion of the total number of British the size of proceeds. The Government will be making postgraduate research students in the UK, (c) in each further announcements on its assets sales programme in higher education institution (i) in total and (ii) as a due course. 621W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 622W

Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Herbal Medicine: EU Law Business, Innovation and Skills what (a) governance and (b) management structures for the operation of David Tredinnick: To ask the Secretary of State for the Green Investment Bank he plans to establish. Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions he has [33417] had with the (a) Secretary of State for Health and (b) European Commission on the effects on businesses of Mr Prisk: The information requested is as follows. the implementation of the Traditional Herbal (a) The governance mechanisms and business model will Medicines Directive. [33719] depend on the final design of the Green Investment Bank (GIB). The precise nature of the GIB is subject to further design and Mr Davey: None. testing work with the proposals being evaluated for effectiveness, Higher Education: Admissions fiscal affordability and transparency. (b) The GIB will make its investment decisions independent Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for from political control and on a commercial basis and employ Business, Innovation and Skills how many young private sector skills and expertise. people from the four lowest socio-economic classes in Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Richmond Park constituency enrolled in UK higher Business, Innovation and Skills what criteria the Green education institutions in the latest period for which Investment Bank will use for the allocation of funding figures are available. [32969] to projects. [33418] Mr Willetts: The latest available socio-economic information on young full-time undergraduate entrants Mr Prisk: The Green Investment Bank’s governance from Richmond Park constituency to UK higher education mechanisms and business model will depend on its final institutions is shown in the following table. Figures have design. A framework will be developed in accordance been taken from the Higher Education Statistics Agency with how funding allocations will be made, whilst leaving (HESA) Student Record and are provided for the 2009/10 the GIB free from day-to-day ministerial interference. academic year. Information for the 2010/11 academic The GIB’s investment mandate will be to deliver the year will become available from HESA in January 2012. Government’s ambitions in economic growth; facilitate Socio-economic class information is not available for the transition to a green economy, and support the part-time entrants to higher education. UK’s industrial transformation. All GIB investments Young1 full-time undergraduate entrants from Richmond Park will be further guided by the Government’s tests of constituency2 by socio-economic classification3, UK higher education effectiveness, affordability and transparency. institutions Academic year 2009/10 Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Socio-economic classification Entrants Business, Innovation and Skills what arrangements he plans to make to fund the Green Investment Bank; and Higher managerial and professional occupations 280 from which of his Department’s budgets its funding Lower managerial and professional occupations 240 will be drawn. [33425] Intermediate occupations 85 Total higher 605 Mr Prisk: I refer the hon. Member to the spending review statement. The Green Investment Bank (GIB) Small employers and own account workers 55 has a specific departmental expenditure limit of £1 billion, Lower supervisory and technical occupations 15 for spend in 2013-14. This funding is outside of any Semi-routine occupations 45 Department’s own allocation. Routine occupations 10 Additionally to the £1 billion, the GIB will also have Total lower 120 significant funding from the proceeds of Government asset sales. Missing4 145 Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 Refers to entrants under the age of 21. 2 The table does not include entrants where the constituency of the Business, Innovation and Skills what processes the student cannot be established due to missing or invalid postcode proposed Green Investment Bank will use to (a) information. evaluate applications for funding and (b) allocate 3 The socio-economic classification of young entrants is based on the funds. [33511] classification of their parents. 4 Covers entrants whose socio-economic classification was never Mr Prisk: The Green Investment Bank will be run on worked and long-term unemployed, missing or not classified: not classified includes occupations which were inadequately described, a commercial basis, employing appropriate private sector not classifiable or unstated. skills and expertise and free from ministerial interference Note: in its day-to-day operations. Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded up or down to the nearest five, so components may Growth Review not sum to totals. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) Student Record Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects the Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Growth Review to report; and if he will make a Business, Innovation and Skills how many people statement. [34241] normally resident in (a) Wallasey constituency, (b) the Wirral borough council area, (c) the North West and Mr Prisk: The first phase of the Growth Review will (d) England applied to attend university to start in report by Budget 2011. academic year (i) 2010-11 and (ii) 2011-12. [33861] 623W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 624W

Mr Willetts: The information is in the following Applicants who were not accepted for entry can tables and is provided by the Universities and Colleges include: Admissions Service (UCAS) and therefore mostly covers individuals who did not receive any offer; individuals who full-time undergraduate study. received an offer (conditional or unconditional) but decided not to go to university; Data for 2010/11 represents applicants who had applied individuals who received a conditional offer and failed to meet by 13 October 2010; end of year data will be available the specific conditions (e.g. they did not achieve certain grades); from 20 January 2011. and Applicants to full-time undergraduate courses via UCAS 2010/11 individuals who decided to withdraw from the UCAS system. Location Applicants Proportion of applicants to courses at UK institutions via UCAS who were unplaced 2006/07 to 2010/11 Wallasey constituency 891 Percentage Wirral local authority 3,253 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101 North West 68,611 England 494,542 Wallasey 15.8 17.2 16.5 22.5 29.3 constituency Source: UCAS Wirral local 16.4 15.7 14.5 19.9 27.6 authority Data for 2011/12 represents applicants who had applied North-west 17.4 17.6 17.0 19.9 26.1 by 20 December 2010. Applicants can apply via the England 19.2 19.2 19.1 21.9 27.4 Source: main scheme up until the end of June and through UCAS. clearing after this. UCAS will release the next set of Data for 2010/11 represent applicants who apply for data on applicants for 2011/12 on 31 January 2011. entry in 2010/11 at 13 October 2010; end of year data Applicants to full-time undergraduate courses via UCAS 2011/12 will be available from 20 January 2011. Location Applicants All other years represent final end of year data. Wallasey constituency 451 Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Wirral local authority 1,911 Business, Innovation and Skills how many (a) North West 38,223 successful and (b) unsuccessful applicants to university England 268,117 from (i) Wallasey constituency, (ii) the Wirral borough Source: council area, (iii) the North West and (iv) England were UCAS from each socio-economic background in each of the last five years. [33863] Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Willetts: Data by socio-economic background Business, Innovation and Skills what proportion of are not available for each of the years requested. Therefore, those who applied to university from (a) Wallasey applicants are split by Participation Of Local AReas constituency, (b) the Wirral borough council area, (c) (POLAR) quintiles. the North West and (d) England did not gain a Applicants who were not accepted for entry can university place in (i) academic year 2010-11 and (ii) include: each of the previous five academic years. [33862] individuals who did not receive any offer; individuals who received an offer (conditional or unconditional) but decided not to go to university; Mr Willetts: The information is in the following table individuals who received a conditional offer and failed to meet and is provided by the Universities and Colleges Admissions the specific conditions (e.g. they did not achieve certain grades); Service (UCAS) and therefore mostly covers full-time and undergraduate study. individuals who decided to withdraw from the UCAS system.

Accepted applicants to full-time undergraduate courses in UK institutions via UCAS by area background, 2006/07 to 2010/11 Successful applicants Area background POLAR2 quintile 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101

Wallasey constituency Disadvantaged — 300 304 358 375 356 Other — 232 254 269 277 274 Total — 532 558 627 652 630

Wirral local authority Disadvantaged — 622 681 798 830 771 Other — 1,432 1,506 1,670 1,662 1,583

Total — 2,054 2,187 2,468 2,492 2,354

North-west Disadvantaged 1 8,129 8,898 10,408 11,234 11,342 2 7,297 7,554 8,849 9,793 9,223

Other 3 8,612 9,030 10,174 10,899 10,775

4 8,529 8,905 9,474 10,346 9,969

5 7,250 7,712 8,299 8,653 8,658

2— 765 736 1,160 875 770 625W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 626W

Accepted applicants to full-time undergraduate courses in UK institutions via UCAS by area background, 2006/07 to 2010/11 Successful applicants Area background POLAR2 quintile 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101

Total — 40,582 42,835 48,364 51,800 50,737

England Disadvantaged 1 37,187 40,369 47,260 51,245 51,031 2 47,944 50,860 57,772 61,751 61,427 Other 3 56,708 60,511 67,378 71,903 71,580 4 69,329 73,595 79,765 84,091 83,701 5 73,445 77,537 83,769 86,553 86,904 2— 4,616 4,087 7,664 4,693 4,376 Total — 289,229 306,959 343,608 360,236 359,019 1 Provisional. 2 Unknown. Unplaced applicants to full-time undergraduate courses in UK institutions via UCAS by area background, 2006/07 to 2010/11 Unplaced applicants Area background POLAR2 quintile 2006 2007 2008 2009 20101

Wallasey constituency Disadvantaged — 59 69 67 121 173 Other —4147576888 Total — 100 116 124 189 261

Wirral local authority Disadvantaged — 142 184 151 260 363 Other — 260 222 269 358 536 Total — 402 406 420 618 899

North-west Disadvantaged 1 2,031 2,311 2,482 3,303 4,706 2 1,646 1,749 1,931 2,559 3,615 Other 3 1,813 1,878 2,007 2,605 3,602 4 1,604 1,742 1,880 2,328 3,246 5 1,314 1,304 1,391 1,822 2,419 2— 135 135 244 227 286 Total — 8,543 9,119 9,935 12,844 17,874

England Disadvantaged 1 9,791 10,738 12,429 15,986 22,937 2 11,919 12,655 14,460 17,947 25,154 Other 3 13,288 14,054 15,200 19,443 25,974 4 15,299 16,152 17,250 21,733 28,811 5 17,619 18,549 19,749 24,683 30,799 2— 922 970 1,900 1,393 1,848 Total — 68,838 73,118 80,988 101,185 135,523 1 Provisional. 2 Unknown.

Numbers for successful and unsuccessful applicants Because this table includes applicants and accepted are too small to be split into five quintiles for constituency applicants of all ages disadvantage is defined by the HE and local authority level. Therefore the data are split qualified adults measure. into those from areas classified as ‘disadvantaged’ or Data for 2010/11 represent applicants who apply for ‘other’. entry in 2010/11 at 13 October 2010; end of year data For the purposes of their funding allocations, the will be available from 20 January 2011. Higher Education Funding Council for England (HEFCE) All other years represent final end of year data. treat entrants from the most disadvantaged 40% of Higher Education: Finance neighbourhoods as ‘disadvantaged’: http://www.hefce.ac.uk/widen/fund/ Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills when he expects the HEFCE uses two different groupings of areas to define Higher Education Funding Council for England to disadvantage which are based on the historic levels of confirm its next funding allocation to universities; and participation or qualification in higher education by the if he will make a statement. [33777] local population: one based on the participation rates of young (19 and under) people in HE (which is used by Mr Willetts: As in previous years the Higher Education HEFCE when looking at young full-time entrants); and Funding Council for England (HEFCE) will announce one based on the proportion of adults in the area who its provisional allocations to institutions for the next hold HE qualifications (which is used by HEFCE when academic year (2011/12) in March this year, with final looking at part-time and mature full-time entrants). allocations in July. 627W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 628W

Innovation: Regional Development Agencies expectations to date and have been asked to put their governance arrangements in place. Other partnerships Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for continue to develop their proposals so they can be in a Business, Innovation and Skills what guidance his similar position. Department has provided to centres of innovation that The development of local enterprise partnerships is a are dependent on funding from the regional bottom up process. No estimate has been made on the development agencies (RDAs) on whether they will optimal number of LEPs to be established. We wish to remain as going concerns following the closure of enable partnerships to better reflect the natural economic RDAs. [33766] geography of the areas they serve and hence to cover real functional economic and travel to work areas. In Mr Willetts: The Department has not provided any addition, we would expect that partnerships to be of guidance to centres of innovation dependent on funding sufficient size to be able to have a strategic oversight of from the regional development agencies. We are however the area covered. considering the future of these centres in the context of existing RDA assets and liabilities. Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment his Furthermore, some of these centres may well succeed Department made of the (a) reflection of a functional in their bids for future funding under the process of economic area and (b) governance arrangements in the establishing the elite network of technology and innovation successful second proposal for a local enterprise centres that is being run by the Technology Strategy partnership to cover local authority areas in the North Board. East. [34577]

Innovation: Research Mr Prisk: The north-eastern local enterprise partnership proposal was assessed against the criteria as set out in Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the Local Growth White Paper. With regard to geography Business, Innovation and Skills how many expressions the Government concluded that the proposal represented of interest his Department has received from a functional economic area that was supported by business organisations wishing to establish a technology and and was sufficiently strategic. innovation centre to date. [33764] No assessment of the partnership’s governance arrangements has been made yet. The partnership has Mr Willetts: The network of technology and innovation been asked to form its board and inform Ministers centres will be established and overseen by the Technology when this is done. Ministers will then assess the board Strategy Board which recently published a prospectus to ensure it also meets Government expectations regarding setting out the process for establishing these. membership. Formal expressions of interest in forming all or part of the high value manufacturing centre and requests for Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State suggestions and to register an interest within the broad for Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to set thematic areas of energy and resource efficiency, transport out the process to be followed for the transition from systems, healthcare, ICT, electronics, photonics and the regional development agency to two local electrical systems—are being gathered by the Technology enterprise partnerships in the North East; and if he will Strategy Board as part of the process outlined in the make a statement. [34578] prospectus. Mr Prisk: Our proposals for restructuring the delivery Local Enterprise Partnerships landscape for economic development are set out in the Local Growth White Paper. Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State The two local enterprise partnerships which have for Business, Innovation and Skills which areas in the been invited to form their boards in the north-east are North East are not proposed to be covered by a local already working, alongside the North East Economic enterprise partnership; and what assessment he has Partnership, to develop proposals which will best serve made of the effect on such areas of exclusion from such the natural economic geography of their areas. partnerships. [33338] They will be focusing on key issues of importance to support rebalancing the economy of the north-east. Mr Prisk: All areas of the North East will be covered These issues include: transition to a low carbon economy, by a local enterprise partnership. Both the Tees Valley supporting enterprise and private sector business growth, and the North Eastern partnerships have been asked to building on key economic strengths, improving skills set up their boards. and performance, and strengthening transport connectivity and infrastructure. Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether his Manpower: Department for Culture, Media and Sport Department has made a forecast of the number of local enterprise partnerships that it expects to be Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for established in (a) the North East and (b) England; Business, Innovation and Skills which staff of his and if he will make a statement. [33508] Department have been transferred to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport as a result of the transfer Mr Prisk: In the North East there are two local of responsibility for media and telecommunications enterprise partnerships (LEPs.) Across England 28 local competition policy; and whether such transfers are (a) enterprise partnerships have met the Government’s on secondment and (b) permanent. [33765] 629W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 630W

Mr Vaizey: The details of which work will be transferred EPSRC spend on hybrid motor from the Department for Business, Innovation and Financial year vehicle research (£) Skills to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport have been agreed and these Departments are now 2011-12 8,115,823.84 considering which staff will move and on what terms. 2012-13 4,065,194.30 No decisions have been made yet about whether the 2013-14 2,369,970.74 transfers will be permanent or on secondment. 2014-15 1,312,166.87 Total 15,863,155.75 Metals: Imports The DfT funded Low Carbon Vehicle Public Procurement programme has provided 200 all-electric Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for and hybrid vans into public sector fleets. The value of Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment this has been £6 million in the financial year 2010-11, he has made of the level of security of supply of rare and will be £1 million in 2011-12. earth metals required by industry. [33726] DfT pays a bus subsidy incentive, at a rate of 6 pence per kilometre, to bus operators in England who use low Mr Prisk: This Department is currently monitoring carbon buses (including hybrid buses) on their local bus the various issues across Government surrounding rare network. earth metals, and discussing concerns with industry as they arise. New Businesses

Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps the Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Government is taking to encourage the establishment Innovation and Skills what his Department’s policy is and growth of new small businesses. [33724] on support for research and development in the hybrid motor vehicle industry in the comprehensive spending Mr Prisk: The Government are encouraging the review period; [33632] establishment and growth of new small businesses by: Launching the new Enterprise Allowance to help the unemployed Mr Prisk: To meet UK carbon targets, the road become self-employed; transport sector needs to be decarbonised and a key Revamping the: element will be the move to ultra-low carbon vehicles, www.businesslink.gov.uk including electric and plug-in hybrid. The spending website which will include a dedicated “start-up hub” bringing review announced provision of in excess of £400 million into one place the information that people need when thinking of over the lifetime of this Parliament to support the starting or are running a new business; decarbonisation of road transport. This support will Establishing a network of at least 40,000 experienced business include: mentors offering practical advice to existing businesses and people who want to start a business; A commitment to a national recharging infrastructure for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles, informed by the eight Plugged-In Encouraging local authorities to work with the private sector Places (PIP) pilot projects which will deliver approximately to create Local Economic Partnerships (LEPs) to create the right 8,000 charging points, between 2010-13; conditions for small firms to grow; The Plug-In Car Grant (PICG) which was successfully launched Refocusing the range of Solutions for Business products so on 1 January 2011. The PICG promotes consumer uptake of that they are better focussed on helping firms grow; ultra-low emission vehicles by providing 25% of the cost of the Investing over £200 million in a national network of elite car up to a cap of £5,000 to both private and business purchasers Technology and Innovation Centres to support the development of eligible cars (which include the Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid); and commercialisation of new technologies by UK businesses; The Technology Strategy Board’s (TSB) core budget and for the upcoming spending review period has yet to be Establishing a new Business Coaching for Growth Programme allocated and until such a time it will not be possible for to enable those new small businesses with high growth potential the TSB to specify the level of funding that it is likely to to realise their potential. allocate towards the development of Low Carbon Vehicle One NorthEast technology.The TSB has been working in close partnership with this Department, the Department for Transport Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Secretary of State (DfT) and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research for Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he Council (EPSRC) to support Low Carbon Vehicle Research has made of the likely effect of the abolition of One and Development (R and D) under a range of themes— NorthEast on businesses in the North East. [34601] including hybrid vehicle technology—prioritised by an industry-led steering group and informed by the New Mr Prisk: An assessment of the impact of the abolition Automotive Innovation and Growth Team Technology of One NorthEast will be made as part of the process Roadmap and Automotive Council findings. Funding is surrounding the Public Bodies Bill. not, however, pre-allocated to specific themes, is subject to a competitive process and success will depend on the Post Offices quality of the proposals submitted. The projected R and D spend over the period 1 April Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011-31 March 2015 by the EPSRC in support of the Business, Innovation and Skills what additional public hybrid motor vehicle industry is shown in the following sector services he expects to be delivered through the table (based on current grants only). Post Office branch network by 2015. [33344] 631W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 632W

Mr Prisk: The Post Office is already a trusted partner Postal Services: Fees and Charges to the public sector, delivering a wide range of services for both central and local government. But the wide Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for distribution and unparalleled national coverage of Business, Innovation and Skills if he will make it his the Post Office network makes it ideally suited to go policy to ensure that no geographical zonal pricing for further and act as a front office for Government. This Royal Mail services results from implementation of the would see the Post Office as the natural place to provisions of the Postal Services Bill. [33517] complete face-to-face transactions, including those that support the delivery of online services, such as identity Mr Davey: The Postal Services Bill clearly sets out the verification, as well as having a role in supporting minimum requirements of a universal postal service people to use online services. More detail can be found and this includes the delivery of a universal service at in the policy statement ‘Securing the Post office Network affordable prices determined in accordance with a public in the Digital Age’, published on 9 November 2010, tariff that is uniform throughout the United Kingdom. copies of which have been placed in the Libraries of the House. It is the responsibility of the regulator, Postcomm (or Ofcom once regulatory responsibility is transferred to them under the Bill) to consider any requests by Royal Mr Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for Mail to operate services on a zonal basis and their Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his considerations would obviously include any impact on Department is taking to support the Post Office customers affected by any such proposed change. And network. [33628] as is currently the case, any such requests would also be subject to consultation. Any universal service products Mr Davey: We set out our policy towards the Post must be provided at a uniform rate across the UK. Office network in the policy statement ‘Securing the Post Office Network in the Digital Age’, published on Royal Mail do of course already operate zonal pricing 9 November, copies of which have been placed in the for some ‘access’ products for bulk mail products. These Library of the House. We will be providing £1.34 billion products are outside of the universal service so there is of funding for the Post Office over the next four years, no requirement for a uniform rate. enabling the maintenance and modernisation of the nationwide network of around 11,500 branches and the Regional Growth Fund development of new revenue streams. There will be no programme of post office closures under this Government. James Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many applications Post Offices: Bank Services have been received for round 1 of bids to the Regional Growth Fund to date. [33630]

Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Prisk: To date four bids have been received. It is Business, Innovation and Skills what research his typical in any competitive bidding process for applications Department (a) commissioned and (b) reviewed when to be received at the last minute, so we expect bids for taking the decision not to proceed with the creation of the first round of funding to reach us nearer to the a Postbank. [33343] 21 January deadline.

Mr Prisk: We have looked carefully at the different Research: Overseas Students options for providing financial services through the Post Office network. The three main approaches we focused on were the Post Office continuing to expand Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for into financial services under its existing arrangements, Business, Innovation and Skills how many the Post Office working with a different banking partner, postgraduate research students in the UK were from and Government creating a state-backed Post Bank. In outside the UK (a) in each of the last 10 years by (i) coming to our conclusion we reviewed relevant publicly number and (ii) proportion of the total, (b) by subject available documents, studied international comparisons in each of the last 10 years by (i) number and (ii) and engaged with stakeholders, including supporters of proportion of the total; and (c) how much they paid a state-backed Post Bank. for their course in each of the last 10 years by (i) number and (ii) proportion of the total according to fee bands (A) £0 to £5,000, (B) £5,001 to £10,000, (C) Post Offices: Closures £10,001 to £15,000, (D) £15,001 to £20,000, (E) £20,001 to £25,000 and (F) over £25,000; and if he will make a Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [33801] Business, Innovation and Skills how many post offices were (a) closed, (b) under temporary closure and (c) Mr Willetts: The latest available information from operated by temporary staff since May 2010; and what the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) regarding estimate he has made of the likely number of post overseas postgraduate research enrolments is shown in office closures in 2011. [33824] tables 1 and 2. Due to a change in both subject classification and the way in which students were assigned to a Mr Davey: The information requested is an operational subject of study in 2002/03, earlier figures are not matter for Post Office Ltd. I have therefore asked Paula comparable. For this reason, figures for 2000/01 and Vennells, the managing director of the Post Office Ltd, 2001/02 are provided in table 1 and later years in table 2. to respond directly to the hon. Member and a copy of Figures for the 2010/11 academic year will be available her reply will be placed in the Libraries of the House. in January 2012. 633W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 634W

The Department does not collect data on the amount higher education institutions (HEIs) charge postgraduate research students in fees.

Table 1: Overseas1 postgraduate research enrolments by subject of study. UK higher education institutions. Academic years 2000/01 to 2001/02 2000/01 2001/02 Percentage of all Percentage of all Subject of study Number enrolments Number enrolments

Medicine and dentistry 1,340 19 1,405 20 Subjects allied to medicine 995 23 1,075 23 Biological sciences 2,330 24 2,415 25 Veterinary science 95 27 95 27 Agriculture and related subjects 540 46 505 45 Physical sciences 2,775 29 2,870 30 Mathematical sciences 705 41 735 41 Computer science 1,315 46 1,490 47 Engineering and technology 5,645 50 5,670 51 Architecture, building and planning 630 45 695 47 Social, economic and political studies 3,595 43 3,725 44 Law 740 51 760 53 Business and administrative studies 1,835 45 2,000 47 Librarianship and information science 205 37 210 37 Languages 2,055 40 2,075 41 Humanities 1,945 33 1,995 32 Creative arts and design 610 27 705 29 Education 1,990 34 2,010 35 Combined/ Invalid code supplied 420 30 475 31 Total 29,770 35 30,915 36 1 Covers EU and non-EU domiciled enrolments. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA). Table 2: Overseas1 postgraduate research enrolments by subject of study. UK higher education institutions. Academic years 2002/03 to 2009/10 2002/03 2003/04 2004/05 2005/06 Percentage Percentage Percentage Percentage of all of all of all of all Subject of study Number enrolments Number enrolments Number enrolments Number enrolments

Medicine and dentistry 1,490 21 1,620 23 1,755 25 1,910 26 Subjects allied to 1,185 24 1,280 26 1,335 26 1,390 27 medicine Biological sciences 2,520 25 2,795 27 2,930 28 3,015 29 Veterinary science 100 28 105 30 100 29 105 27 Agriculture and related 500 47 430 46 400 47 350 49 subjects Physical sciences 2,880 30 2,905 31 3,000 32 3,240 34 Mathematical sciences 840 41 845 41 900 42 980 45 Computer science 1,765 49 1,985 51 2,230 54 2,235 55 Engineering and 5,975 53 6,205 55 6,345 57 6,495 57 technology Architecture, building 800 52 860 53 870 55 870 55 and planning Social studies 3,585 47 4,015 50 4,250 52 4,055 50 Law 1,160 58 920 55 990 58 935 58 Business and 2,235 49 2,340 52 2,555 55 2,605 56 administrative studies Mass communications 255 37 280 38 325 45 365 48 and documentation Languages 2,190 41 2,325 43 2,355 44 2,290 43 Historical and 2,025 32 2,120 33 2,185 34 2,170 34 philosophical studies Creative arts and. design 930 32 775 31 820 32 825 32 Education 2,130 37 2,305 39 2,320 39 2,230 38 Combined 30 43 50 56 25 27 140 33 All subjects 32,590 38 34,150 39 35,695 41 36,210 41 635W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 636W

2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 2009/10 Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of Percentage of all all all all Subject of study Number enrolments Number enrolments Number enrolments Number enrolments

Medicine and dentistry 2,150 28 2,335 29 2,260 30 2,375 30 Subjects allied to 1,560 29 1,845 33 1,900 33 2,010 32 medicine Biological sciences 3,370 31 3,460 32 3,795 32 3,800 32 Veterinary science 100 24 90 24 90 26 70 22 Agriculture and related 315 54 380 53 370 54 380 53 subjects Physical sciences 3,530 36 3,875 37 3,850 37 3,840 36 Mathematical sciences 1,100 47 1,125 49 1,055 48 1,095 49 Computer science 2,370 57 2,505 57 2,445 57 2,415 56 Engineering and 6,645 57 6,880 59 6,890 59 7,160 57 technology Architecture, building 885 56 825 57 815 55 890 55 and planning Social studies 4,085 50 4,350 51 4,350 50 4,470 50 Law 990 59 1,040 59 1,095 59 1,155 57 Business and 2,725 57 2,960 58 3,085 59 3,290 57 administrative studies Mass communications 390 48 405 50 400 49 410 45 and documentation Languages 2,315 43 2,440 44 2,415 43 2,425 42 Historical and 2,225 35 2,395 35 2,395 36 2,405 35 philosophical studies Creative arts and. design 925 32 1,045 33 1,080 33 1,125 33 Education 2,175 38 2,140 36 2,220 35 2,285 35 Combined 125 33 15 30 10 40 10 57 All subjects 37,975 42 40,110 43 40,530 43 41,605 42 1 Covers EU and non-EU domiciled enrolments. Note: Figures are based on a HESA standard registration population and have been rounded to the nearest five. Source: Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA).

Royal Mail Student Loans Company

Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills on what dates he met Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment the chief executive of Royal Mail in the last 12 months; he has made of the effectiveness of arrangements for and what matters were discussed at each such meeting. information sharing between the Student Loans [33823] Company and HM Revenue and Customs; and if he will make a statement. [33419] Mr Davey: BIS Ministers have held several meeting with the chief executive since the general election and Mr Willetts: The Student Loans Company (SLC) have discussed a wide range of issues relating to the and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (HMRC) business and the Postal Services Bill. The meetings I regularly exchange information which underpins the have had are as follows: collection of student loans; this Department is working with them to develop an electronic data sharing link Meeting with: which will make improvements to the way household 21 May 2010 Moya Greene income is verified, for the purposes of assessing student 8 July 2010 Donald Brydon and Moya Greene support entitlement. 15 July 2010 Donald Brydon and Moya Greene Any issues on information sharing would be the 7 September 2010 Donald Brydon and Moya Greene subject of regular discussions between this Department 7 October 2010 Moya Greene and our partners. 2 November 2010 Moya Greene 29 November 2010 Donald Brydon and Moya Greene Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for 9 December 2010 Donald Brydon and Moya Greene Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and he has made of the performance and effectiveness of Skills has had one meeting as follows: the Student Loans Company; and if he will make a statement. [33503] Meeting with:

8 December 2010 Moya Greene Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills reviews the performance of the Student Loans Departmental officials meet with representatives of Company (SLC) on an ongoing basis. Regular meetings Royal Mail on a regular basis. are held at official level, including as part of the shared 637W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 638W governance arrangements in place for overseeing student Mr Willetts: The executive Technology Strategy Board finance delivery. Formal performance reviews are held engages extensively with businesses across the UK both quarterly and twice yearly are chaired by me, most directly and through the activities of its knowledge recently on 20 December 2010. transfer networks and is currently working with the Following the unacceptable service problems in delivering Science and Industry Councils in England looking at the academic year 2009/10 applications cycle, the SLC the role they may play in future. It will also look to build has made significant improvements this year. The company on the relationship already established with organisations has made improvements to the way it processes applications at a sub-national level and develop relationships with and deploys staff to better manage applications processing those local enterprise partnerships that can demonstrably and answering telephones at peak times. Data from the help it extend its reach and engage with innovative SLC show that 99.3% of applications for students who businesses. applied by the relevant deadlines with the right Furthermore, the Governing Board of the Technology documentation were prepared for payment to be made Strategy Board will hold meetings with occasional elements at the start of term. of local engagement where the topic of business under There is still more to do to ensure that students and discussion would benefit from such activity. their families receive the level of service that they have every right to expect. The Department is working in Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for partnership with the SLC and are committed to supporting Business, Innovation and Skills what plans he has to the SLC in its efforts to deliver a more successful ensure representation of the (a) regions and (b) student finance service. nations on the Technology Strategy Board. [33762] Students: Fees and Charges Mr Willetts: Members of the Governing Board of Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for the Technology Strategy Board are drawn from businesses Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking and organisations across the UK on the basis of their to ensure that those granted refugee status are eligible relevant experience of, and success in, science and for student support for fees for the full length of their technology development and exploitation from a business intended course of study where they have been perspective. accepted as a home student for funding purposes. They are not appointed to represent the interests of [33014] English regions or the devolved Administrations, or for that matter, specific business sectors. Mr Willetts: In England, home fee status and tuition At a working level however, the Technology Strategy fee support are available to refugees and their family Board has officials responsible for relationship managing members as long as they have been ordinarily resident activities at a sub-national level and will look to build in the UK and Islands since being recognised as a on the relationship already established with the devolved refugee and they meet all other eligibility requirements. Administrations and develop an appropriate relationship Continuing eligibility will be determined by certain with the Local Enterprise Partnerships, particularly criteria, for example the continuation of refugee status those that can demonstrably help the Technology Strategy or other qualifying immigration status. There are no Board extend its reach and engage with innovative plans to change this. businesses. Technology Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for : To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his Business, Innovation and Skills what contribution his Department expects to allocate to the Technology Department is making to the Prime Minister’s initiative Strategy Board in each of the next three years; for what purpose such funding is to be allocated; and if he will to create a Tech City in East London. [34564] make a statement. [33776] Mr Prisk: Officials in this Department and in UKTI have helped to establish contact with potential investors Mr Willetts: Details of the Technology Strategy Board’s in the East London Tech City initiative, and continue to core budget for the next four years of the spending assist the as the initiative is review period will be detailed in the near future. This developed. funding supports business innovation through mechanisms More widely, the recently announced Growth Review, such as funding for collaborative research projects, which this Department is leading jointly with the Treasury, knowledge transfer partnerships, the Small Business and which is aimed at creating the conditions for strong, Research Initiative and for networking. It is focused on sustainable and balanced growth, will address a range those opportunities which offer the greatest scope for of issues relevant to technology-based companies including boosting UK growth and productivity on the basis of access to finance, regulation and competition. business and academic strength. An additional £200 million will be provided to the Technology Strategy Board Technology Strategy Board to establish a network of technology and innovation centres. These will complement Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the approaches highlighted above, where necessary and Business, Innovation and Skills if he will put in place appropriate, by providing a business led, capital intensive arrangements to ensure that the Technology Strategy infrastructure that enables business to exploit new and Board meets regularly in the regions. [33711] emerging technologies. 639W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 640W

Trade: Manpower JUSTICE Community Orders Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills how many full-time Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice equivalent staff in his Department not including those what estimate his Department has made of the average in UK Trade and Investment work on international cost to the public purse of a shorter intensive trade in (a) general and (b) negotiations; and if he will supervision order. [33051] make a statement. [33778] Mr Blunt: Intensive supervision is a common Mr Davey: The Joint Trade Policy Unit currently has component in community orders imposed as part of the 59 staff. The roles of the team, drawn from both the intensive alternatives custody (IAC) pilots. The majority Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) of orders made have been for 12 months with some for and the Department for International Development, all 24 months. have some link to trade negotiations. Meaningful average costs for IAC are not available as each pilot has developed through negotiation with local courts, and the component parts have varied along with Work Experience the associated local costs which has meant that costs for each pilot area have differed considerably.

Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking what research his Department has (a) commissioned to encourage graduates from each social background to and (b) evaluated on the effectiveness of shorter take up internships in (a) the voluntary sector and (b) intensive supervision orders on rates of rehabilitation. media industries. [33751] [33052]

Mr Willetts: The Government remains committed Mr Blunt: Seven areas are running pilots to test an both to increasing social mobility and to encouraging intensive community order targeting offenders likely to employers to offer more internships to young people, be sentenced to short-term custody. We do not have including graduates. evidence of the impact of these schemes on reoffending. The Graduate Talent Pool website advertises vacancies NOMS has commissioned research including analysis from a wide range of sectors, including the voluntary exploring the feasibility of evaluating the schemes’ impact and the media sectors. Eligible graduates from all social on reoffending. backgrounds can apply for internships advertised on Crime: Prisons the GTP. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what assessment he has made of the effect on recorded Working Hours: EU Law crime rates of the change in the prison population between 1997 and 2010. [33115] Stephen McPartland: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills what progress his Mr Blunt: Rates of recorded crime may be affected by Department has made in its negotiations on revisions a number of factors beyond changes to the prison to the European Working Time Directive; and what population. Possible factors include the effectiveness of further negotiations he expects to take place in 2011. policing, the effectiveness of rehabilitation and technological [33785] developments in security such as vehicle immobilisers. The Ministry of Justice published an assessment of the evidence on the complex link between changes in Mr Davey: The coalition Government are committed the prison population and recorded crime rates in the to limiting the application of the working time directive Green Paper Evidence Report, ‘Breaking the Cycle: in the UK, including maintaining the flexibility provided Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and Sentencing of by the right of individuals to opt out of the maximum Offenders’, December 2010. This concluded that there 48-hour working week. We have made, and continue to is no clear consensus from criminologists and commentators make clear to the Commission and to partners in Europe about whether imprisonment directly affects crime. that we will engage positively and constructively with any further negotiations on the working time directive, Defamation and in particular that we would welcome changes to increase flexibility, for instance regarding the treatment Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of ‘on-call’ time. But we are stressing at every opportunity whether the review of the law of libel in England and that the UK position on the opt-out will remain absolutely Wales will include an assessment of whether the firm. families of deceased persons should be able to bring The Commission is currently conducting a consultation defamation actions in respect of their deceased on reviewing the directive, limited to European social relatives. [33362] partners. If the social partners do not decide to come to an agreement on working time, it is likely that the Mr Djanogly: We are carrying out an extensive review Commission will issue a proposal to amend the directive of the law on defamation, and will publish a draft during 2011. Defamation Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny and full 641W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 642W consultation in the spring. As part of the review we are Departmental Standards giving consideration to the evidence that has been presented to us on this particular issue. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice on what date and for what reason the Legal Departmental Manpower Services Commission did not meet the ISO quality standard to which it had been accredited; what steps Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice had been taken to attempt to ensure continued what changes to staffing levels at HM Prison Ford are compliance with the standard; and what steps were proposed as a consequence of planned reductions in taken (a) in consequence of the failure to meet the the budget of the National Offender Management standard and (b) to return to accredited standards. Service. [32927] [33755]

Mr Blunt: Following the disturbance the Regional Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) Manager Custodial Services will await the outcome of maintained the ISO 9002 quality standard until 2007, the NOMS investigation before finalising staffing levels after which it applied for the Charter Mark, which it for 2011-12. held from 2007 to 2010, when it was abolished by the Government. At no time did the LSC lose accreditation Departmental Public Expenditure for the ISO 9002 or Charter Mark standard, and therefore it did not fail to meet the requirements of these standards. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for For both standards the LSC was assessed on a rolling Justice what requirements there were on the Legal three-year programme by external assessors. The LSC Services Commission and its predecessor to maintain passed all assessments and reassessments, and worked (a) the ISO quality standard and (b) other external with the assessing bodies on various improvements over quality standards since December 2004; what steps the years. were taken to ensure such compliance; what requirements there were to audit such compliance; and Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for what the cost to the public purse was of such Justice how much (a) his Department and its compliance in each year since 2004. [33753] predecessor and (b) the Legal Services Commission (LSC) has spent since 2004 on compliance with quality Mr Djanogly: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) standards. [33845] is a non-departmental public body able to determine which accreditations it considers are suitable. As such, Mr Djanogly: Neither the Ministry of Justice nor the we have not required the LSC to maintain any quality Legal Services Commission maintain central records of standards. As best practice, the LSC does maintain or expenditure on compliance with quality standards and has maintained in the past a number of externally the information could be obtained only at disproportionate recognised quality standards, which are as follows: cost. ISO 9002: quality standard from 2001 to 2007 Charter Mark: from 2007 to 2010 (the Charter Mark was Driving Offences abolished by the Government in 2010). The LSC was assessed on a rolling three-year programme Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if by external assessors for both standards. The LSC he will bring forward proposals to ensure that the passed all assessments and reassessments, and worked offence of obstruction of a driveway is treated in the with the assessing bodies on various improvements over same way in cases where a vehicle is prevented from (a) the years: leaving and (b) entering private property. [32256] Investors in People accreditation: from March 2009 to present Norman Baker: I have been asked to reply. The organisation-wide accreditation is in place for The police have the power to remove a vehicle from three years. If the LSC decides to apply for reaccreditation the highway if it is causing an obstruction. It is for the in March 2012, it will begin self- assessment from 2011. police to decide what constitutes obstruction. The There are no audit requirements throughout the three-year Government are considering extending this power to period until March 2012 when the LSC would be reassessed cover obstruction on private land. against the standard by an external assessor through a process of interviews with a sample of staff. Family Justice Review Panel ISO 14001:2004: environmental management standard from March 2009 to August 2010 John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for The ISO 14001 standard defines a set of environmental Justice whether any of the members of the Family management requirements for environmental management Justice Review panel have (a) been the subject as systems. To ensure compliance the LSC was required to children of proceedings under the Children Act 1989, provide continual staff training and monitoring of key (b) been party as a parent to proceedings under the performance indicators. Compliance was externally assessed Children Act 1989 and (c) undertaken remunerated every six months. In August 2010 the LSC withdrew employment for (i) social services, (ii) CAFCASS, (iii) from ISO 14001 accreditation. the National Youth Advocacy Service, (iv) HM Courts The LSC has no central record of the amount spent Service, (v) the judiciary and (vi) a family legal practice on compliance with quality standards and such information in the last 20 years; and if he will make a statement. could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. [33102] 643W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 644W

Mr Djanogly: None of the Family Justice Review Legal Services Commission in respect of performance Panel have been subject as children of proceedings against (a) internally set targets and (b) external under the Children Act 1989 or been party as a parent quality standards in each year since 2007; and what the to proceedings under the Children Act 1989. job title was of the recipient of each such payment. With regard to part (c) of your question: [33754] Mr Justice McFarlane has been a High Court family judge for five years. He practised at the Bar for nearly 30 years before that, Mr Djanogly: A response cannot be prepared in the latterly specialising in family law and was appointed a QC in time available. I will write to the hon. Member with the 1998. In the course of his practice as a barrister, he regularly available information when it has been collated. acted all categories of parties to family cases and therefore received instructions from social services, CAFCASS, NYAS and Open Prisons: Sentencing parents. John Coughlan has been the Director of Children’s Services Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice for Hampshire county council since 2005 which includes short-term how many prisoners there are serving short sentences in employment in November and December 2008 as Director of Children’s Services at Haringey; From 2001 to 2005 he was open prisons. [32946] statutory Director of Social Services for Telford and Wrekin; From 1997 to 2001 he worked for Dudley Mr Blunt: The population of those serving short council social services department; From 1982 to 1997 he worked sentences (sentences of less than 12 months) in open for Birmingham city council social services department. prisons at 30 September 2010, was 211. Keith Towler has not been employed by a social services The figure provided includes those prisoners held in department since 1984 and has never been employed by other organisations listed. open prisons/YOIs and the relevant parts of multi-site establishments; it does not include those in semi-open Baroness Richie is a member of the CAFCASS Board and has not been employed by the other organisations listed. prisons or in small (under 50 place) open units at closed Neither David Norgrove nor Gillian Pugh has been employed prisons. by any of the organisations listed. This figure has been drawn from administrative IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording system, First Offenders: Females are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prison Accommodation how many female prisoners there were (a) in December 1996, (b) in December 2009 and (c) on the Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice most recent date for which figures are available; and what the operational capacity of HM Prison Ford is. how many were first-time offenders in each case. [32926] [32933] Mr Blunt: As a result of the disturbance on 31 December Mr Blunt: The population of the women’s prison and 1 January the operational capacity at Ford has been estate was as follows: reduced from 557 to a new temporary operational capacity (a) 2,370 in December 1996, (b) 4, 259 in December of 445. 2009 and (c) 3,982 on 7 January 2011, the most recent date for which figures are available. There were 4,307 Prison Officers female prisoners on 30 June 2009 (the most recent date for which information on first-time offenders is available) Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice of which 3,427 were serving an immediate custodial how many were on duty on the prison estate on (a) sentence. 3,328 of these could be found on the Police 30 December 2009, (b) 31 December 2009 and (c) National Computer and of these 915 had no previous 1 January 2010. [32936] cautions or convictions when sentenced. Figures for first-time offender female prisoners are not available for Mr Blunt: The information requested is not collected December 1996 and December 2009. centrally and to obtain accurate information on the These figures have been drawn from administrative number of staff on duty across the estate on those dates IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording would entail significant disproportionate cost. system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Prison Service: Hewlett-Packard

Ford Prison Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what the cost to HM Prison Service is of the Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice contract with HP Enterprise Services for the provision what discussions Ministers in his Department have had of (a) desktop computers, (b) printers and (c) with the governor of HM Prison Ford in the last six telephones in respect of each participating prison. months. [33302] [33435] Mr Blunt: I visited Ford prison on 4 August and on 2 January. On both occasions I met with the governor. Mr Blunt: The information requested is shown in the following table. Incentives The contract with HP Enterprise Services UK Ltd provides a fully managed ICT and telephony service for Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for establishments within the National Offender Management Justice how much has been paid in bonuses or Service. The costs of the services in 2009-10 are shown enhanced remuneration payments to employees of the in the table. 645W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 646W

The ‘Desktop and Laptops’ column also includes the 2009-10 expenditure by establishment cost of one printer for every seven desktop and laptop £ devices. Desktop and Desktop Mobile The ‘Printers’ column is the cost of the printers Establishment laptops Printers telephones telephones Pagers deployed by each establishment in excess of the ‘one in Grendon 167,157 747 19,716 2,928 469 seven’ printers included in the previous column. Guys March 118,588 206 13,227 1,102 99 The ‘Desktop Telephones’, ‘Mobile Telephones’ and Haslar 50,101 379 8,036 801 48 ‘Pagers’ columns exclude the cost of calls made from Haverigg 126,631 322 13,925 2,180 86 those devices. Highdown 263,988 1,546 35,126 1,795 457 Highpoint 236,256 1,090 20,586 2,219 153 2009-10 expenditure by establishment Hindley 209,444 893 24,646 1,811 206 £ Hollesley Bay 97,444 611 14,311 2,920 25 Desktop and Desktop Mobile Holloway 184,623 364 32,567 2,650 556 Establishment laptops Printers telephones telephones Pagers Holme House 177,575 432 24,083 1,664 259 Hull 240,010 679 31,442 3,128 542 Acklington 164,016 612 20,779 1,294 198 Huntercombe 148,081 349 16,406 1,841 187 Albany 188,913 665 16,557 701 438 Ashwell 137,433 1,022 13,389 1,302 201 ISIS 14,709 65 — — — Askham Grange 68,104 185 7,072 1,133 169 Isle of Sheppey 88,864 1,594 — — — Aylesbury 140,344 501 21,576 1,472 49 Kennett 153,674 1,956 19,518 1,841 12 Bedford 115,677 393 13,399 1,510 36 Kingston 76,530 363 7,385 1,310 55 Belmarsh 344,349 1,876 29,013 4,815 301 Kirkham 155,819 437 18,783 2,704 531 Belmarsh East — 363 — 15 — Kirklevington 65,959 177 7,004 894 59 Grange Birmingham 342,587 889 26,949 2,982 700 Blantyre House 41,138 90 5,206 1,271 37 Lancaster Castle 90,626 260 9,329 1,163 173 Blundeston 133,296 67 19,554 855 123 Lancaster Farms 174,970 545 20,909 1,803 258 Brinsford 196,267 625 17,751 2,820 445 Latchmere House 57,302 150 8,026 1,025 62 Bristol 180,793 757 16,625 3,382 337 Leeds 267,818 344 28,763 2,034 502 Brixton 201,860 390 25,427 2,881 195 Leicester 114,221 401 14,269 1,387 56 Buckley Hall 115,294 293 11,544 1,965 220 Lewes 203,315 1,589 17,162 2,851 182 Bullingdon 270,116 864 27,773 1,941 376 Leyhill 125,789 82 15,494 2,643 212 Bullwood Hall 82,276 44 10,590 717 130 Lincoln 165,088 696 18,032 1,140 158 Camp Hill 141,953 318 11,278 847 197 Lindholme 238,401 1,118 22,321 1,094 107 Canterbury 91,852 235 11,929 925 74 Littlehey 166,467 234 21,102 1,002 235 Cardiff 203,698 295 17,365 2,589 654 Liverpool 246,062 1,384 33,896 4,122 136 Castington 152,984 387 12,795 1,348 44 Long Lartin 242,308 1,332 27,752 4,469 605 Channings Wood 182,172 133 20,836 1,325 76 Low Newton 135,211 1,387 13,467 1,872 308 Chelmsford 191,441 907 17,751 2,373 293 Maidstone 161,028 339 16,245 1,156 60 Coldingley 149,077 698 16,411 1,117 37 Manchester 276,858 1,275 28,059 3,999 333 Coltishall 71,628 163 6,968 247 9 Moorland 226,757 504 32,646 2,465 284 Cookham Wood 106,024 668 11,632 2,196 161 Morton Hall 122,571 347 11,815 1,387 148 Dartmoor 148,924 213 18,293 2,219 206 Mount (The) 149,614 484 17,068 2,581 383 Deerbolt 137,663 660 17,099 1,487 247 New Hall 186,615 799 17,188 1,733 114 Dorchester 78,216 106 8,610 1,179 172 North Sea Camp 95,606 178 10,350 925 62 Dover 79,825 511 11,726 1,379 33 Northallerton 79,135 237 10,871 1,341 25 Down view 126,938 451 12,185 1,048 62 Norwich 179,414 303 23,661 1,757 416 Drake Hall 110,850 151 10,131 1,009 189 Nottingham 224,918 1,151 23,301 1,926 136 Durham 256,174 855 27,997 1,525 100 Onley 246,904 823 25,480 1,032 210 East Sutton Park 46,654 259 6,134 1,217 37 Parkhurst 144,711 470 23,108 2,720 249 Eastwood Park 146,013 519 14,598 3,305 148 Pentonville 295,703 510 30,519 2,743 540 Edmunds Hill 108,476 441 9,475 1,495 416 Portland 144,098 347 21,633 1,233 — Elmley 139,118 103 18,986 2,103 346 Preston 191,747 630 22,379 2,997 49 Erlestoke 129,696 468 12,518 1,995 139 Ranby 219,249 869 25,818 2,011 679 Everthorpe 161,105 374 13,905 925 103 Reading 98,746 336 11,413 1,109 181 Exeter 152,295 474 14,405 1,379 401 Redditch Cluster 369,782 788 39,124 5,547 556 Featherstone 166,544 494 21,295 2,034 146 Risley 190,752 591 19,950 2,966 190 Feltham 329,717 789 32,260 1,479 272 Rochester 204,081 1,564 19,002 1,618 282 Ford 125,482 369 14,598 1,595 49 Foston Hall 102,041 440 13,946 932 14 Send 119,507 673 15,463 3,313 62 Frankland 306,198 932 36,648 3,683 359 Shepton Mallet 78,829 70 9,443 1,186 210 Full Sutton 199,944 503 22,858 3,606 180 Shrewsbury 116,289 226 12,497 1,757 73 Garth 163,709 378 20,179 1,664 74 Stafford 171,676 336 20,289 1,294 62 Gartree 220,322 871 19,434 1,148 173 Standford Hill 120,733 249 14,087 2,203 202 Glen Parva 221,701 464 17,991 2,096 309 Stocken 182,631 478 17,360 1,941 232 Gloucester 118,128 284 10,496 1,048 123 Stoke Heath 187,687 473 21,170 1,965 86 647W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 648W

2009-10 expenditure by establishment These and more details on the projections may be £ found in the latest published bulletin “Prison Population Desktop Projections 2010-2016” Ministry of Justice Statistics and Desktop Mobile Establishment laptops Printers telephones telephones Pagers Bulletin, 10 August 2010. This is available at the following webpage: Styal 165,241 497 18,376 462 12 http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/prisonpopulation.htm Sudbury 129,619 252 13,957 1,117 37 These projections take no account of any impact on Swaleside 148,005 343 17,725 1,240 148 the prison population which might result from proposed 113,991 324 10,798 2,165 136 sentencing reforms noted in the recently published Ministry Swinfen Hall 170,451 957 15,849 1,834 248 of Justice business plan 2011-15, which is available at Thorn Cross 123,950 507 10,736 1,379 12 the following webpage: Usk 111,999 328 16,912 1,579 136 http://www.justice.gov.uk/business-plan-2011-15.htm Verne (The) 131,458 395 13,733 709 109 Wakefield 280,841 1,613 30,618 2,943 206 As such these projections provide a set of “baseline” Wandsworth 431,144 2,136 36,533 6,009 914 scenarios against which the impacts of future changes Warren Hill 135,288 360 11,460 678 247 can be assessed. Wayland 197,340 351 17,073 1,757 206 Other impacts included in the projections, cover the Wealstun 198,872 846 21,342 647 95 anticipated impacts of policy and process initiatives Wellingborough 142,412 531 18,684 2,150 210 that have agreed implementation timetables. Werrington 83,808 441 11,288 1,302 123 For the 2010 prison population projections these Wetherby 187,917 1,585 15,859 1,787 161 include the impact of changes to arrangements for Wharton 271,112 2,022 21,039 2,735 185 release on licence for current prisoners sentenced under Whitemoor 291,490 932 28,101 3,220 171 the Criminal Justice Act 1991, which were brought in Winchester 166,390 642 19,252 948 326 through the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 20084 Woodhill 253,416 719 27,648 3,159 441 and the impact of the withdrawal of End of Custody Wormwood Scrubs 300,376 495 29,696 2,157 173 Licence in March 2010. These impacts are applied Wymott 226,757 996 22,655 1,872 81 equally to all scenarios. Prisoners: Alcoholic Drinks Prisoners Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for how many serving prisoners have been diagnosed with Justice what the prison population was on drink problems; and how many such prisoners are 31 December 2010. [33104] receiving treatment in alcohol dependency units. [32935] Mr Blunt: The prison population as at 31 December 2010 was 83,055. Mr Blunt: Research carried out by the Office for National Statistics (ONS)1 states that 63% of sentenced The prison population figures are published by the males and 39% of sentenced females reported a hazardous Ministry of Justice and can be found free of charge at drinking pattern in the year before coming into prison. the HM Prison Service website via the following: A more recent survey carried out in 2005-062 found that http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/resourcecentre/ 23% of prisoners (sentenced from one month to four publicationsdocuments/index.asp?cat=85 years) reported having drunk alcohol in the four weeks These figures have been drawn from administrative prior to custody and that they would find it quite IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording difficult or impossible to stop drinking. system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Figures for those receiving a clinical intervention for and processing. alcohol dependency were last collated centrally in 2002-03, when an estimated 6,400 prisoners undertook an alcohol John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for detoxification with an estimated 7,000 more prisoners Justice what estimate his Department has made of the undertaking detoxification for combined alcohol and size of the prison population in 2014-15. [33105] drug misuse. A range of interventions are in place to support those Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice produces annual with an alcohol problem. For those prisoners who are projections of the prison population in England and alcohol dependent, services are in the main provided Wales, most recently in August 2010. These project the within the wider drug treatment framework. Interventions prison population under three different scenarios based are not necessarily delivered within specialist rehabilitation on different assumptions about future sentencing trends units. (increasing sentencing, no change and decreasing custody 1 Substance Misuse among prisoners in England and Wales rate and average custodial sentence length). (1997), Singleton, Farrell and Meltzer. The following table shows average monthly projected 2 Ministry of Justice (2010) “Compendium of reoffending statistics prison population for the financial year 2014-15. and analysis”. Ministry of Justice Statistics Bulletin. London: Average projected prison population1 Ministry of Justice. Sentencing trends Prisoners: Drugs Increase No change Decrease Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2014-15 92,100 88,500 84,700 how many serving prisoners have been diagnosed with 1Financial year figures. Note: drug problems; and how many such prisoners are All figures are rounded to the nearest hundred. receiving treatment in drug rehabilitation units. [32934] 649W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 650W

Mr Blunt: We do not collect central figures on the Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for diagnosed drug problems of prisoners. The National Justice what estimate he has made of the number of Offender Management Service (NOMS) estimates that serving prisoners of each sex who have a diagnosed on average 55% of those entering prison have a serious personality disorder. [33431] drug problem.1 A survey of 1,435 prisoners sentenced to between one month and four years in 2005 and 20062 Mr Blunt: Data are not held centrally on the numbers showed 64% of prisoners reporting having used drugs of serving prisoners with a diagnosed personality disorder. in the four weeks prior to custody. However, it is estimated that approximately two-thirds In 2009-10 66,459 prisoners engaged with CARAT of prisoners would meet the criteria for at least one type (Counselling, Assessment, Referral, Advice and of personality disorder. Throughcare) services in prisons and 60,067 received a The prevalence of personality disorder among the clinical intervention. Of these 10,206 started an accredited prison population was estimated in a Ministry of Justice drug treatment programme. report ‘The problems and needs of newly sentenced In addition to this 6,586 young people (15 to 17-year-olds) prisoners: results from a national survey’, Ministry of in custody engaged with the Young People’s Substance Justice Research Series 16/08, October 2008. This indicated Misuse Service (YPSMS).3 that 61% of prisoners in the sample were assessed as having a personality disorder. There was little difference The drug treatment framework is available across by sentence length, but the rate was higher for men than prisons and is designed to meet the needs of all drug- for women (62% versus 57%), and for adults compared misusing offenders. Interventions are not necessarily to young offenders (63% versus 53%). delivered within specialist rehabilitation units. The Ministry of Justice Rehabilitation Green Paper 1 Principally based on figures from ‘Substance misuse among prisoners in England and Wales’, Office for National Statistics ‘Breaking the Cycle: Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation (1999), Singleton et al. and Sentencing of Offenders’ noted that the national 2 Ministry of Justice (2010) “Compendium of reoffending statistics health service and National Offender Management Service and analysis”. Ministry of Justice Statistics Bulletin. London: plan to reconfigure existing services in secure and Ministry of Justice. community settings to manage high risk, sexual or 3 All data are drawn from administrative IT systems and are violent offenders whose offending is linked to severe subject to the inaccuracies inherent in any large-scale assessment forms of personality disorder. The implementation plan and recording system. for these changes will be subject to a separate consultation by the Department of Health and the Ministry of Prisoners: Gender Recognition Justice to be launched shortly. Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Prisons Justice when he expects to issue guidance to prisons on the location and treatment of transgender prisoners. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice [33509] what assessment has been made of the (a) prevalence of gangs in and (b) effect of gangs on (i) HM Prison Mr Blunt: The draft Prison Service instruction on the Ford and (ii) the prison estate in the last six months. care and management of transsexual prisoners is currently [33056] awaiting final approval from the National Offender Management Service Operational Policy Group, and Mr Blunt: In view of the ongoing criminal and NOMS will be published shortly after this approval is obtained. investigations into the incident at HMP Ford, it would In the meantime the draft instruction is available to be inappropriate to comment prior to the conclusion of prison staff who can also contact the relevant policy those investigations. leads at National Offender Management Service The identification of ‘gangs’ in prison is not always headquarters for further advice and support. straightforward given the loose and fluid nature of affiliations and the inherent difficulties of defining a Prisoners: Mental Health ‘gang’ separately from other groups. Gang-related issues have been and continue to be managed within the Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice overall framework to manage prisons and provide a safe how many prisoners serving custodial sentences have and decent environment. Where gang-related issues are been diagnosed with mental health problems; and how pronounced, governors work with local police forces to many such prisoners are receiving treatment in share information as necessary. psychiatric hospitals. [33109] Prisons: Alcoholic Drinks Mr Blunt: The diagnosis and treatment of mental health problems suffered by sentenced prisoners is for Mr Iain Wright: To ask the Secretary of State for medical professionals under the NHS prison mental Justice (1) whether there are circumstances in which health in-reach programme. Figures are not centrally prisoners are permitted to consume alcohol while in available for prisoners who have been so diagnosed and custody; and if he will make a statement; [33403] who are receiving treatment in prison. However, in the (2) how many investigations concerning the use of most recent survey of prisoner backgrounds, 17% reported alcohol by prisoners have taken place in each of the having been treated or counselled for a mental health or last five years; and if he will make a statement. [33404] emotional problem in the year before custody. On 10 January 2011, 824 sentenced prisoners in England Mr Blunt: Consumption of alcohol is not permitted and Wales were receiving treatment in psychiatric hospitals, in prison under any circumstances. Prison rule 25 (1) after being transferred for treatment by the Secretary of states: State under the Mental Health Act 1983. “No prisoner shall be allowed to have any intoxicating liquor.” 651W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 652W

Under the Offender Management Act (2007) it is a Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice criminal offence for prisoners to bring, or attempt to at what time Ministers in his Department were first bring, alcohol in to a prison without prior authorisation. informed of the disturbance at HM Prison Ford; and Where a prisoner is found to have broken prison rules what steps Ministers took in response. [32944] they will be subject to internal disciplinary proceedings rather than investigation. Mr Blunt: In line with the usual protocols when Gold Command is opened in response to an incident, my Numbers of proven offences under internal disciplinary Private Office were informed first at approximately procedures of prisoners consuming alcohol during the 3 am on Saturday 1 January. I was informed later in the last five years is in the following table: morning when the incident escalated and received regular updates thereafter. I visited the Gold Command suite in Number London on the same day and also briefed the press. On 2005 185 the morning of 2 January I visited HMP Ford. My hon. 2006 216 Friend the Secretary of State for Justice was also informed 2007 243 of the incident. 2008 281 2009 233 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Note: what methods the Prison Service uses at HM prison Numbers for 2010 are not yet available. Ford to assess whether disturbances are likely. [32945] A copy of prison rules is available in the Library of the House. Mr Blunt: HMP Ford conducts a daily operational briefing which discusses recent and forthcoming operational Prisons: Closed Circuit Television issues. The security manager submits a weekly report to the regional office, including a section on the stability of Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the prison, a monthly security meeting also assesses the whether CCTV was in operation at HM Prison Ford at stability of the prison. the time of the disturbances in December 2010 and January 2011. [33064] Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prison officers were on duty at the Mr Blunt: HMP Ford does have CCTV equipment. outbreak of the recent disturbance at HM Prison Ford; The use of CCTV at the prison during the disturbance and for how many prisoners they were responsible. is something the NOMS investigation will comment on [32999] and it would be inappropriate to pre-empt the findings of this investigation, or the police investigation which is Mr Blunt: Two prison officers and four operational also ongoing. support grades were on duty at the outbreak of the disturbance. The population of Ford at the time of the Prisons: Discipline disturbance was 487. Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prisons: Manpower what the terms of reference are for the inquiry into the disturbances at HM Prison Ford in December 2010 Steve McCabe: To ask the Secretary of State for and January 2011. [32925] Justice what his Department’s minimum recommended ratio of prison officers to prisoners is for an open Mr Blunt: The Commissioning Officer, Michael Spurr prison. [33000] (chief executive officer, NOMS) appointed Ian Mulholland, the Investigating Officer, to investigate the events Mr Blunt: There are no minimum recommended ratios surrounding the disturbance at HMP Ford on 31 December of prison officer to prisoners in open prisons. Each 2010 and 1 January 2011: to determine what occurred; prison is individually risk assessed and minimum staffing to establish the causes and chronology of events; how levels are agreed with the Regional Manager Custodial the incident was managed; and, to identify learning to and Director of Offender Management. enable the service to prevent or better manage such incidents at Ford and elsewhere across the estate in Prostitution: Newham future. He specifically asked the Investigating Officer to consider: Lyn Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice The events that led to the disturbance, what occurred how many convictions there were for (a) kerb crawling, and whether preventative action could have been taken, (b) soliciting for the purposes of prostitution in a including: public place, (c) keeping a brothel and (d) control of Any intelligence or risk assessment made prior to and during prostitution in respect of offences committed in the the disturbance; London Borough of Newham in (i) 2008, (ii) 2009 and The level of staffing on duty. (iii) 2010. [33388] The response to and management of the incident itself, including: The “first at scene”, Silver and Gold arrangements; Mr Blunt: The number of defendants found guilty at all courts for selected prostitution related offences in Deployment of national resources and joint working with the emergency services. the Metropolitan police force area for the years 2008 to 2009 can be viewed in the table. Any underlying issues/factors which may have contributed to the disturbance including any aspects of the general management Information at borough level is not collated centrally of the prison which may have had an impact. by the Ministry of Justice. 653W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 654W

Court proceedings data for 2010 are planned for Table la shows the reconviction rate for adult offenders publication in the spring. discharged from custody broken down by age band. Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for selected prostitution related Table lb shows the reconviction rate for juvenile offenders offences in the Metropolitan police force area for the years 2008-091,2,3 discharged from custody. Offence 2008 2009 Table la: Adult one-year reconviction rates for offenders discharged from custody in Q1 2008, by age band Kerb crawling 165 117 Reconviction rate Soliciting for the purposes of prostitution in a 114 65 Age band Number of offenders (percentage) public place Keeping a brothel 5 10 18-20 2,185 57.6 Control of prostitution 16 4 21 -24 3,009 50.7 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom 25-29 3,313 53.8 these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When 30-34 2,435 51.7 a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for 35-39 1,953 49.0 two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory 40-49 2,293 40.8 maximum penalty is the most severe. 50+ 911 25.8 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted Total 16,099 49.4 from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection Table lb: Juvenile (aged 10 to 17) one-year reconviction rates for offenders processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those discharged from custody in Q1 2008 data are used. Reconviction rate 3 Includes the following statutes and corresponding offence descriptions: Age band Number of offenders (percentage) Kerb, crawling: Sexual Offences Act 1985, S.1 10 to 17 816 73.4 kerb crawling Sexual Offences Act 1985, S.2 Persistent soliciting of person or persons for the purpose of prostitution More information on the reoffending rates is available Soliciting for the purposes of prostitution in a public place: Sexual Offences Act 1985, S.1 from the Ministry of Justice website at: Common prostitute loitering or soliciting for the purpose of prostitution http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ Keeping a brothel: reoffendingofadults.htm Sexual Offences Act 1956 S.33A as added by the Sexual Offences Act 1967 Keeping a brothel for prostitution http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ Sexual Offences Act 1956 S.34 reoffendingjuveniles.htm Letting premises for use as a brothel Sexual Offences Act 1956 S.34 Letting premises for use as a brothel for homosexual practices Sexual Offences Act 1956 S.35 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Tenant permitting premises to be used as a brothel what the reconviction rate after (a) 12 and (b) 24 Sexual Offences Act 1956 S.35 as amended by the Sexual Offences Act 2003 S.53 months for prisoners released from prison following a Tenant permitting premises to be used as a brothel for homosexual practices Sexual Offences Act 1956 S.33 as amended by the Sexual Offences Act 1967 sentence of (i) 12 months or less, (ii) between one and Keeping a brothel for homosexual practices four years and (iii) more than four years was on the Control of prostitution: most recent date for which figures are available. [33111] Sexual Offences Act 2001 S.53 Controlling prostitution for gain Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice Mr Blunt: The latest reconviction data are based on offences committed within one year of an offender Ranby Prison: Manpower being discharged from custody.We are currently consulting on a new reoffending measure which includes plans to publish one and two year reoffending rates. John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many staff are employed at Ranby prison. [33408] The following table shows the number and one year reconviction rate of adult offenders who were released from custody in the first quarter of 2008. Mr Blunt: On 30 September 2010, there were 488 staff employed at HMP Ranby, with a full-time equivalent of One year reconviction rate for offenders released from custody in the first quarter 464, having accounted for part-time staff. of 2008 Reconviction rate Sentence length Number of offenders (percentage) Reoffenders Less than 12 months 10,251 61.1 Between one and four 4,533 32.2 Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice years what the reconviction rate after (a) 12 and (b) Four years and over 1,315 17.6 24 months for prisoners aged (i) 21 years or less and (ii) Total 16,099 49.4 18 years or less on release from prison was on the most recent date for which figures are available. [33110] Further information on adult reconviction is available at: Mr Blunt: The latest reconviction data are based on http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ offences committed within one year of an offender reoffendingofadults.htm being discharged from custody.We are currently consulting on a new reoffending measure which includes plans to Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice publish one and two-year reoffending rates. what the reconviction rate after (a) 12 and (b) 24 Reconviction rates are published separately for adults months for persons discharged from approved premises (those aged 18 years or older) and juveniles (those aged was on the most recent date for which figures are between 10 and 17). available. [33112] 655W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 656W

Mr Blunt: Reconviction data for persons discharged Adult one-year reconviction rates for offenders commencing court order with an from approved premises are not available. Further unpaid work requirement in Q1 2008 Number of offenders Reconviction rate information on adult reoffending is available at: (percentage) http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ reoffendingofadults.htm Unpaid work 11,546 24.1 Unpaid work with 7,528 33.4 additional requirements Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Total unpaid work1 19,074 27.8 what the reconviction rate after (a) 12 and (b) 1 Stand alone or in combination with other requirements 24 months is for persons sentenced to (i) a community order, (ii) a community order with a programme Reconviction rates provided here should not be requirement and (iii) a community order with a curfew compared to assess the effectiveness of sentences, as tag requirement was on the most recent date for which there is no control for known differences in offender characteristics. figures are available. [33113] More information on the reconviction rates is available Mr Blunt: The latest re-conviction data provided are from the Ministry of Justice website at: based on offences committed within one year of an http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ offender commencing a court order under probation reoffendingofadults.htm supervision. Table 1 shows the re-conviction rates for offenders Sentencing Green Paper commencing a community order under probation supervision between January and March 2008, including Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice those with accredited programme and curfew requirements. what budget his Department has set for its planned consultation events on the Sentencing Green Paper. Table 1: Adult one-year re-conviction rates for offenders commencing a community order in Q1 2008, by requirement type [32937] Re-conviction rate Number of offenders (percentage) Mr Blunt: The cost of consultation events will be met within existing budgets of policy areas developing proposals Community order 27,504 36.4 and therefore no overall budget has been set. Costs will Accredited programme1 5,708 40.9 be kept to a minimum, and for those 11 events already Curfew1 2,762 43.8 planned it is estimated that they will cost no more than 1 Stand alone or in combination with other requirements. £10,000. Re-conviction rates provided here should not be compared to assess the effectiveness of sentences, as Sentencing: Young People there is no control for known differences in offender characteristics. Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Further breakdowns of two-year re-conviction data Justice how many and what proportion of suspended are not available. However the latest headline two-year sentences given to 18 to 20-year-olds were breached re-conviction rates published are for the 2006 cohort. leading to the activation of a custodial sentence in the For adult offenders 51.9% were re-convicted in two last three years for which figures are available. [33676] years. We are currently consulting on a new re-offending Mr Blunt: The information requested is not held measure which includes plans to publish one and two-year centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate re-offending rates on a consistent basis. cost. However, data are available on the reasons for More information on the re-conviction rates is available termination of suspended sentence orders during the from the Ministry of Justice website: supervision period of the order. These reasons http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ include early termination for failure to comply with reoffendingofadults.htm requirements or for conviction of a further offence. The number and proportion of suspended sentence orders which terminated for these reasons for the years 2007 to Sadiq Khan: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2009 for 18 to 20-year-olds are shown in the following what the reconviction rate after (a) 12 and (b) 24 table: months for persons sentenced to (i) unpaid work and (ii) unpaid work with additional requirements was on Failure to comply with Convicted of further offence the most recent date for which figures are available. requirements [33114] Proportion of Proportion of all SSO all SSO Number terminations Number terminations Mr Blunt: The latest reconviction data provided are based on offences committed within one year of an 2007 1,381 30 941 20 offender commencing a court order under probation 2008 1,395 21 1,258 19 supervision. We are currently consulting on a new 2009 1,243 18 1,259 18 reoffending measure which includes plans to publish Note: It is not possible to compare percentages in 2007 with later years because not one and two year reoffending rates. enough time had elapsed since these orders were introduced in April 2005 to The following table shows the reconviction rates for allow a sufficiently high percentage to run their full course. offenders sentenced to a court order under probation In addition, the figures for receptions into prison of supervision between January and March 2008, with 18 to 20-year-olds for breach of a Suspended Sentence unpaid work and unpaid work with additional requirements. Order were 913 in 2007, 1,040 in 2008 and 824 in 2009. 657W Written Answers17 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 658W

These figures have been drawn from administrative Squatting IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and processing. pursuant to the answer of 6 December 2010, Official Report, column 126W, on squatting: crime, under what Separation: Cohabitation circumstances squatting in residential properties may be considered an act of peaceful protest. [33342] David Morris: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if he will assess the merits of introducing Mr Blunt: Our review of the law in relation to squatting guidance on the division of the estates of co-habiting is not only looking at squatting in residential properties but also squatting in non-residential properties. As part couples who separate. [33275] of that package we need to take account of all of the coalition commitments, including those to uphold the Mr Djanogly: This Government are considering the right to peaceful protest and to guard against the published research on the impact of the Family Law proliferation of unnecessary criminal offences. (Scotland) Act 2006, which contains provisions for cohabitants when their relationship ends, along with the Protestors have in the past occupied residential properties proposals set out in the Law Commission’s report, (e.g. to protest on the roofs of the homes of political ‘Cohabitation: The ’Financial Consequences of figures) and non-residential buildings (e.g. to stage a Relationship Breakdown’ published in 2007. sit-in to protest against the policies of an employer) to generate publicity for their causes. These may not be We will announce shortly the outcome of that typical cases of ‘squatting’, but we need to recognise the consideration and in advance of this it would be premature various forms trespass can take when exploring the to consider the introduction of guidance. possibilities for strengthening the law in this area. 659W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 660W Written Answers to Welsh Assembly Government Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales Questions which Minister in each Department is responsible for liaison with the Welsh Assembly Government. [34087] Tuesday 18 January 2011 Mr David Jones: Each Government Minister is responsible for liaising with the Welsh Assembly Government on their specific areas of responsibility. SCOTLAND TRANSPORT Universal Credit Cycling: Accidents Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland what recent discussions he has had with the Secretary John Stevenson: To ask the Secretary of State for of State for Work and Pensions on the effects of the Transport how many cyclists died as a result of road introduction of the proposed universal credit in traffic accidents in (a) 2009 and (b) 2010. [33859] Scotland. [34041] Mike Penning: There were 104 pedal cyclists killed in David Mundell: The Secretary of State for Scotland road accidents in Great Britain in 2009. Data for 2010 and I are in regular discussion with ministerial colleagues will be published in June 2011. in the Department for Work and Pensions on a number Dartford-Thurrock Crossing of issues, including the introduction of the universal credit in Scotland. Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport pursuant to the answer of 21 December 2010, Official Report, column 1299W, on the Dartford- HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Thurrock Crossing: tolls, what procedure is followed to determine whether to suspend the tolls at the Dartford Crossing; what criteria inform the decision; and who is ParliQuiz responsible for the decision. [33582] Mr Knight: To ask the hon. Member for Caithness, Mike Penning: The road user charge at the Dartford Sutherland and Easter Ross, representing the House of Crossing can be suspended in both directions, in Commons Commission, what the cost to the House of exceptional emergency circumstances, to facilitate the Commons Service was of developing the ParliQuiz safe movement of traffic or in the interests of the safety application for the Apple iPhone; and which company of the public, in accordance with the Transport Act 2000, was contracted for this project. [33769] section 172A. John Thurso: The cost of the ParliQuiz application to The decision to suspend the charge is taken by a the House of Commons was £5,075, which included senior civil servant within the Highways Agency on content and technical development. The technical build behalf of the Secretary of State for Transport, in accordance was undertaken by an independent developer, Eknath with the relevant legislation. Kadam. The content authoring was undertaken by an The Department for Transport has made it clear that independent writer, Mike Greenwood. it is willing to consider suspending the charges when congestion is particularly severe, and where the need to collect charges is contributing to that congestion and we will be issuing guidance in the near future. WALES Departmental NDPBs

Chinese Trade Jim Fitzpatrick: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what the average salary was of people on Owen Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales fixed-term contracts in each of the non-departmental what discussions she has had with (a) the Secretary of public bodies sponsored by his Department in April State for Business, Innovation and Skills and (b) UK 2010 and each subsequent month. [31015] Trade and Investment on the recent Chinese trade delegation to the UK. [34161] Norman Baker [holding answer 16 December 2010]: The average annual salary of people on fixed-term Mr David Jones: The Secretary of State for Wales contracts in each of the non-departmental public bodies continues to have ongoing discussions with the Secretary sponsored by the Department for Transport in April of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and other 2010 and each subsequent month was: Cabinet colleagues regarding overseas trade both to and from Wales. Average salary of people on fixed-term contracts British Directly The Secretary of State has also met with the former Renewable Transport Operated Northern chief executive of UK Trade and Investment and will be Fuels Police Railways Lighthouse Passenger Trinity meeting the new Trade Minister in the near future. We Agency Authority Ltd Board Focus Lighthouse remain committed to ensuring that Wales derives the 2010 greatest possible benefits both from overseas trade and April 69,500 18,000 8,000 25,900 32,100 15,700 from inward investment. 661W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 662W

Average salary of people on fixed-term contracts Mrs Villiers: Through the course of the recent severe British Directly weather conditions, the Secretary of State chaired the Renewable Transport Operated Northern Fuels Police Railways Lighthouse Passenger Trinity Ministerial Winter Resilience Network set up to co-ordinate Agency Authority Ltd Board Focus Lighthouse actions across Government Departments. He also provided the Prime Minister with regular updates on the position May 69,500 18,000 8,000 25,900 33,300 17,300 on the recent severe weather, with particular reference June 69,500 18,000 8,000 25,900 31,800 18,500 to the functioning of Heathrow. July 69,500 18,000 5,600 25,900 30,800 18,400 August 69,500 18,000 8,300 28,700 29,700 19,600 September 69,500 18,000 7,300 28,700 28,800 18,000 Humber Bridge: CCTV October 69,500 18,000 7,000 0,000 28,200 20,100 November 69,500 18,000 7,300 0,000 27,600 18,400 Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for There were no staff employed on fixed-term contracts Transport for what purposes CCTV is used on the by the Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee, Humber bridge. [33974] Traffic Commissioners and Deputy Traffic Commissioners in this period. Norman Baker: Installation and monitoring of CCTV is the responsibility of the Humber Bridge Board. The Departmental Procurement Board have informed the Department that CCTV at the Humber bridge is primarily employed to allow remote Catherine McKinnell: To ask the Secretary of State monitoring of the Board’s property and infrastructure for Transport what steps (a) his Department, (b) its which would otherwise be impractical. agencies and (c) the non-departmental public bodies The equipment is located to allow visual confirmation for which he is responsible have taken to comply with of conditions throughout the site occupied by the Humber the guidance of the Office of Government Commerce Bridge Board although the Board recognises that this on promoting skills through public procurement issued will, unavoidably, sometimes include surrounding land in 2009. [31320] which cannot be practically excluded from the field of view of the CCTV equipment. Norman Baker: The primary purpose of Government procurement is to buy goods and services the Government The images collected will allow observations to be need, at the best combination of quality and whole-life made in respect of ensuring the Bridge Board operates costs to obtain the best value for money. This, of a safe and secure environment for both staff and visiting course, with due regard to environmental considerations members of the general public and is able to identify in support of which Department for Environment, Food and respond to issues arising that could affect this and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) recently published the environment. These issues may include: Action Plan for driving Sustainable Operations and Traffic Management and traffic conditions generally Procurement across Government. Government will shortly Security in areas unauthorised for general access be publishing revised commitments for waste, water and Casual observation of vehicles and persons entering Bridge carbon (including transport and business travel) for the Government estate. Board property to enable early identification of behaviour likely to compromise the safe and secure environment The Department for Transport supports the promotion of skills and considers it has most opportunity to The observation of vehicles or persons whose behaviour causes concern encourage the use of apprenticeships through the construction work contracted by the Highways Agency. Specific observation of vehicles or persons involved in an incident, dispute or collision on Board property. At the start of 2010 the Highway Agency (HA) Board agreed to a target to deliver 100 new apprenticeships through procurement activity by the end of 2012. Humber Bridge: Snow and Ice From information gathered from 45 key suppliers in September 2010 HA identified 42 apprenticeships had started working on HA contracts since 1 January 2010. Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport who is responsible for clearing snow from Highway Agency also took the opportunity to promote the highway over the Humber Bridge during bad the “Skills Pledge” administered by the Skills Funding weather; for what reason both lanes in each direction Agency. To date 49% of their 45 key suppliers have were not cleared of snow on 28 November 2010; signed up to the Skills Pledge to invest in the skills and whether consideration was given to not charging the training of their workforce. full toll to motorists using the bridge in this state; and Highway Agency has also begun incorporating elements if he will make a statement. [33770] relating to skills and apprenticeships into various stages of the procurement process. Norman Baker: Snow clearance and toll reductions during extreme weather are a matter for the Humber Heathrow Airport: Snow and Ice Bridge Board. The Board has informed me that the extreme weather conditions on 28 November, made it Mr MacShane: To ask the Secretary of State for impractical to ensure the road surface of the Humber Transport what recent discussions he has had with his Bridge was entirely free of snow. The bridge was, however, ministerial colleagues on mobilising resources to passable throughout this period although local police permit the maximum functioning of Heathrow during forces imposed their own restrictions on some roads the recent severe weather. [32631] giving access to the bridge. 663W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 664W

Humber Bridge: Speed Limits Sea Rescue

Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport who decides (a) when temporary speed Transport pursuant to the written ministerial statement limits are to be imposed on the Humber Bridge of 16 December 2010, Official Report, columns crossing and (b) what such speed limits should be; 133-4WS, on coastguard services (modernisation) what whether a review mechanism of such decisions is in the lower cost is that he estimates will be achieved by place to ensure that a low speed limit is not implementing his proposals. [34343] unnecessarily imposed; and if he will make a statement. [33771] Mike Penning: The consultation document ‘Protecting our Seas and Shores in the 21st Century’ (pages 38-39) Norman Baker: The Humber Bridge Board has states that the proposals would reduce both long-term responsibility for any temporary speed limits and the running costs and capital expenditure and generate a limit at which they are set. Temporary speed limits are total saving, in net present value terms, of some £120 million imposed by the Board on the Humber Bridge to ensure over 25 years. the safety of users of the bridge in adverse conditions including bad weather and work requiring traffic Copies of the consultation have been placed in the management. The Board has in place detailed written Libraries of the House and are available on the Maritime procedures formulated with consideration of national and Coastguard Agency’s website at: precedents and historical experience at the bridge, which www.mcga.gov.uk allows the speed limits to be set at an appropriate level. These restrictions are reviewed in real time and modified Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for or removed as appropriate. Transport pursuant to the written ministerial statement of 16 December 2010, Official Report, columns Motorways: Speed Limits 133-4WS, on coastguard services (modernisation), what the membership is of the team which brought Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for forward the modernisation proposals; and what Transport when he expects the M18 motorway to be experience each such member had in the coastguard clear of roadworks and temporary speed restrictions in and rescue service. [34345] both directions. [33984] Mike Penning: The Coastguard Modernisation Mike Penning: There are currently four schemes being programme team within the Maritime and Coastguard undertaken on the M18 between junctions 2 and 5 Agency has pulled together a wide range of skills and which are due to be completed by the end of March experience covering Operational Coastguard, Human 2011. Resources, Finance, Communications and Programme/ This work includes three schemes to replace steel Project Management. Operational Coastguard experience central reserve barriers, which are approaching the end has been drawn from headquarters officers who have of their design life, with new concrete central reserve performed a wide range of operational roles during barrier: their careers, and current serving coastal safety managers, Junction 4 North (Waterton Bridge): commenced 20 December watch officers and watch managers. for 13 weeks. The proposals set out in the consultation document Junction 3 North: commenced 18 October for 16 weeks. represent the collective, corporate position of the Maritime Junction 2 to 3: commenced 20 December for 10 weeks. and Coastguard Agency and its chief executive, Sir Alan In addition to the safety barrier works, work has also Massey. commenced at the A1 (M)/M18 Wadworth Interchange (M18 Junction 2) to install traffic signals. This is also Southeastern: Franchises due to be completed by the end of March 2011. Sir John Stanley: To ask the Secretary of State for Railway Network: Subsidence Transport (1) by what date he expects to take a decision on the extension of the Southeastern rail franchise by a Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for further two years as provided for under the Integrated Transport how much funding Network Rail has Kent Franchise; [33333] allocated to the prevention of land slips near railway (2) whether he plans to undertake a public lines in each of the last five years. [34153] consultation before deciding whether to extend the Mrs Villiers: This is an operational matter for Network Southeastern rail franchise by a further two years. Rail as the owner and operator of the national rail [33334] network. The hon. Member should contact Network Rail’s acting chief executive at the following address for Mrs Villiers [holding answer 17 January 2011]: The a response to her question: Southeastern Continuation Review period under the Integrated Kent franchise agreement ended on 12 December Peter Henderson 2010. The Department for Transport is currently reviewing Acting Chief Executive Southeastern’s performance against the review criteria Network Rail and the Secretary of State expects to notify the operator Kings Place of the outcome in due course. 90 York Way The Secretary of State will not be undertaking a London public consultation. The terms of the franchise agreed N1 9AG. by the previous Administration require the Secretary of 665W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 666W

State to offer an additional two years to Southeastern, To meet UK carbon targets, the road transport sector at the price agreed in 2005, if it passes the Continuation needs to be decarbonised and a key element will be the Review. move to ultra-low carbon vehicles, including electric and plug-in hybrid. The spending review announced Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for provision of in excess of £400 million over the lifetime Transport what plans he has for the future of the of this Parliament to support the decarbonisation of Integrated Kent Franchise; and if he will make a road transport. This support will include: statement. [33904] A commitment to a national recharging infrastructure for electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles, informed by the eight Plugged-In Mrs Villiers: The franchise contract agreed with Places (PIP) pilot projects which will deliver approximately 8,000 Southeastern by the previous administration includes a charging points, between 2010-13; Continuation Review. The terms of the franchise provide The Plug-In Car Grant (PICG) which was successfully launched that if the targets contained in the Continuation Review on 1 January 2011. The PICG promotes consumer uptake of ultra-low emission vehicles by providing 25% of the cost of the are met by Southeastern, the Department for Transport car up to a cap of £5,000 to both private and business is obliged to offer the train operator a two year extension purchasers of eligible cars (which include the Toyota Prius plug-in of its franchise to cover the period 1 April 2012 to hybrid); 31 March 2014. The Technology Strategy Board’s (TSB) core budget The Continuation Review period ended on 12 December for the upcoming spending review period has yet to be 2010. Department for Transport officials are currently allocated and until such a time it will not be possible for assessing Southeastern’s performance against the review the TSB to specify the level of funding that it is likely to criteria and an announcement on the outcome will be allocate towards the development of Low Carbon Vehicle made in due course. technology.The TSB has been working in close partnership with this Department, the Department for Transport Train Operating Companies: Weather (DfT) and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC) to support Low Carbon Vehicle Research and Development (R and D) under a range of themes— Clive Efford: To ask the Secretary of State for including hybrid vehicle technology—prioritised by an Transport what sanctions are open to him to use industry-led steering group and informed by the New against (a) train operating companies and (b) Automotive Innovation and Growth Team Technology Network Rail in the event that he determines that they Roadmap and Automotive Council findings. Funding is failed to fulfil their contractual obligations during the not, however, pre-allocated to specific themes, is subject winter weather of November and December 2010; and to a competitive process and success will depend on the if he will make a statement. [29628] quality of the proposals submitted. The projected R and D spend over the period 1 April Mrs Villiers: The provisions contained in train operators’ 2011-31 March 2015 by the EPSRC in support of the franchise agreements specify the sanctions available in hybrid motor vehicle industry is shown in the following the event that the operator fails to fulfil its contractual table (based on current grants only). requirements. All new rail franchises incorporate performance requirements—including punctuality and EPSRC spend on hybrid motor cancellations—which are monitored by the Department Financial year vehicle research (£) for Transport. Franchise agreements set out a staged process to be 2011-12 8,115,823.84 followed in the event that train operators fail to comply 2012-13 4,065,194.30 with their contractual obligations. This may include a 2013-14 2,369,970.74 fine, and/or requiring the operator to produce remedial 2014-15 1,312,166.87 plan setting out measures to restore performance and Total 15,863,155.75 targets for improvement. The DfT funded Low Carbon Vehicle Public The Office of Rail Regulation monitors Network Procurement programme has provided 200 all-electric Rail’s operational activities. If it considers that Network and hybrid vans into public sector fleets. The value of Rail is falling short of its Network Licence obligations, this has been £6 million in the financial year 2010-11, it may take enforcement action against Network Rail. and will be £1 million in 2011-12. This involves issuing an Enforcement Order, the provision DfT pays a bus subsidy incentive, at a rate of 6 pence for which is set out in the Railways Act 1993, which sets per kilometre, to bus operators in England who use low out the steps Network Rail must take in order to carbon buses (including hybrid buses) on their local bus comply with its licence obligations, the timescales for network. achieving compliance, and any financial penalty that it is felt appropriate to impose. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries Arts: Employment

Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Transport Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for what financial support his Department plans to Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent provide to the hybrid motor vehicle industry in each of estimate he has made of the number of people the next four financial years. [33633] employed in the arts sector in each local authority area in the South West; and if he will make a statement. Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. [34029] 667W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 668W

Mr Vaizey: The Department does not hold this Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, information. However, Arts Council England has provided Olympics, Media and Sport what assessment he has figures relating to the number of arts sector staff, in made of the number of households with access to each employment category, in their Regularly Funded high-speed broadband in rural communities in Organisations (RFOs). The 2009-10 figures for the south- England over each of the next five years. [34201] west are set out in the table. Mr Vaizey: I have made no specific assessment of the Permanent Permanent numbers of households in rural areas that will have Local authority full-time part-time Contractual access to superfast broadband. It is the Government’s aim that rural and remote areas should benefit from Bath 13 15 50 greater availability of superfast broadband access, as do Bournemouth 6740 West more densely populated areas, in support of the goal of the UK having the best superfast broadband network in Bristol East 4 4 78 Europe by 2015. Bristol South 6 2 46 Bristol West 141 166 490 Football Cheltenham 54 88 98 Cotswold 7 32 85 Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for Exeter 16 22 165 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what recent Falmouth and 51333progress he has made on his proposals for the future of Camborne football governance; and if he will make a statement. Forest of Dean 0 4 17 [34364] Gloucester 6 29 99 Kingswood 6 15 17 Hugh Robertson: I am continuing my discussions North Devon 24 14 61 with the football authorities on further governance North Dorset 4 14 87 reform and a greater involvement for supporters at their North Wiltshire 1 1 0 local clubs, with a view to setting out a way forward in Plymouth, 020these areas by May as agreed in the Department’s Devonport recent business plan. Plymouth, 99 73 283 Furthermore, the Culture, Media and Sport Select Sutton Committee will also be conducting its own inquiry on Poole 101 32 403 these issues over the next few months. Salisbury 44 30 170 We look forward to following the Committee’s Inquiry Somerton and 51053and responding to their recommendations. Frome South Swindon 9 7 131 Football Foundation St. Ives 8 9 37 Stroud 4 9 29 Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for Taunton 1 2 29 Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport what plans he has Teignbridge 9 24 0 for future funding of the Football Foundation. [34030] Tewkesbury 7 21 42 Hugh Robertson: Through Sport England, the Tiverton and 210 Honiton Government will be investing £47 million into the Football Torridge and 91235Foundation for the period 2009 to 2013. West Devon Along with the Football Association and the Premier Totnes 16 33 274 League we remain key funding partners to the Foundation, Truro and St. 44 79 255 which continues to help deliver new and improved Austell community sports facilities in many towns and counties West Dorset 4 18 91 across the country. Westbury 5 5 19 Woodspring 3 1 0 Television: Licensing Yeovil 6 11 22 Grand total 669 805 3,239 Simon Reevell: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (1) how many times TV Licensing has written to an individual threatening (a) court action and (b) a fine for not Broadband buying a television licence where it has subsequently been revealed that the person in question (i) had Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for already paid for a licence and (ii) did not have a Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport how many (a) television at the time in each of the last five years; and homes and (b) businesses he expects to have access to if he will make a statement; [33856] superfast broadband by 2015; and if he will make a (2) how many formal complaints the BBC has statement. [34058] received about TV Licensing writing to people threatening (a) court action and (b) a fine where it has Mr Vaizey: Broadband Delivery UK is assessing the subsequently been revealed that the person in question current broadband provision at community level in its (i) had already paid for a licence and (ii) did not have a work on delivering the coalition Government’s superfast television at the time in each of the last five years; and broadband and universal broadband access commitments. if he will make a statement. [33858] 669W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 670W

Mr Vaizey: The BBC is responsible for the administration Damian Green: The information requested is not and enforcement of the television licensing system. It is centrally recorded and could be obtained only by independent of Government. I have therefore asked the examination of individual case records at disproportionate BBC television licensing team to consider the question cost. raised by the hon. Member for Dewsbury and to write to him direct. Crossbows A copy of the letter will be placed in the Library of both Houses Hywel Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what arrangements are in place to regulate the sale and use of crossbows. [34122] HOME DEPARTMENT James Brokenshire [holding answer 17 January 2011]: Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs: Crime The Crossbows Act 1987 made it an offence to sell or hire a crossbow to a person under the age of 17 and for Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for the a person under the age of 17 to purchase or possess a Home Department what estimate she has made of the crossbow. Section 44 of the Violent Crime Reduction cost to police forces of (a) alcohol and (b) Act 2006 changed this to a person under the age of 18. drug-related crimes in each of the last three years. [34002] Darlington

James Brokenshire: Following the review by Sir David Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for the Normington of data burdens placed by the Government Home Department whether she has made an on the police service, police cost estimates by crime type assessment of the effects on the local economy of based on activity based costing (ABC) data are no closing her Department’s offices in Darlington; and if longer collected centrally by the Home Office. 2007-08 she will publish a cost-benefit review of closure. [34239] is therefore the latest year for which these data are available. Lynne Featherstone: The Home Office does not have Some incidences of acquisitive and violent crime are plans to close any of its offices in Darlington. The likely to be related to alcohol or drugs. However, ABC Independent Safeguarding Authority (ISA), which is a did not record whether violent and acquisitive offences non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Home were drug or alcohol-related. Spend on violent and Office, is located in Darlington. acquisitive crimes is therefore presented here with no The Vetting and Barring Scheme review, which is further break down. under way, will consider the role of the Independent Based on ABC, estimates of the cost to the police of Safeguarding Authority. There are no plans to close the dealing with acquisitive crime, violent crime and drug ISA’s offices and therefore a cost benefit review has not offences in 2007-08 are as follows: been commissioned or published.

£ million Deportation: Human Rights

Drug offences 338 Violent crimes 913 Mr Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Acquisitive crimes 1,268 for the Home Department how many deportations from the UK did not proceed as a consequence of the These estimates include business support costs such application of the provisions of (a) Article 3 and (b) as personnel and finance activities. Excluding business Article 8 of the European Convention on Human support costs results in the following estimates: Rights in each year since 2005; and if she will make a statement. [34146] £ million

Drug offences 266 Damian Green: In responding to this question, we Violent crimes 727 have assumed ‘deportations’ to mean ‘removals’. Acquisitive crimes 1,007 The UK Border Agency does not record this information centrally. Providing a breakdown of specific reasons for Crime prevention activity is excluded from these figures. removals not to be pursued, either at initial decision Drug offences are only those directly related to the sale stage or following a successful appeal, can only be and possession of drugs. Violent crime includes more determined by investigating individual case files which serious and less serious violence. Acquisitive crime includes would incur a disproportionate cost. burglary from a dwelling, burglary from commercial or other premises, robbery, theft of or from a motor vehicle, Entry Clearances: Overseas Students and other theft. Figures exclude data from Essex, Suffolk, Staffordshire and Thames Valley police forces, which Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for are not available. the Home Department how many employers have been Asylum: Children prosecuted for employing non-EU students in breach of the conditions of their visa each year since 2001. Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for [33731] the Home Department how many children were detained between the date of final determination of a Damian Green: The information is not recorded centrally, family asylum claim and the date of deportation in (a) to obtain this information would incur disproportionate 2007, (b) 2008 and (c) 2009. [34548] cost. 671W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 672W

Details of employers prosecuted under section 8 of National Policing Improvement Agency: Fees and the Asylum and Immigration Act 1996 and section 21 Charges of the Immigration Asylum and Nationality Act 2008 (employing illegal workers) are recorded on the National Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Operations Database (NOD). However, we only record Department whether she has assessed the merits of the details of the offence against the employer and do charging police forces for activities that are carried out not record how many of the illegal workers encountered by the National Policing Improvement Agency. [31502] or arrested were specifically non-EU students working in breach. Mrs May [holding answer 20 December 2010]: The Details of the UK Border Agency prosecution cases National Policing Improvement Agency already charges for England and Wales are published by offence in the police forces for some of its activities. Control of Immigration Statistics which is available on the Home Office website at: Neighbourhood Policing Fund http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb1510.pdf and a copy is available in the House Library. Ed Balls: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much her Department allocated to Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for the Neighbourhood Policing Fund in 2009-10 and each the Home Department what percentage of the colleges year of the comprehensive spending review period on the sponsors list of the UK Border Agency were using 2010-11 prices. [31504] inspected prior to a licence being issued in the latest period for which figures are available. [33732] Mrs May [holding answer 20 December 2010]: The following table applies gross domestic product deflators Damian Green: Of the educational institutions on the to the Neighbourhood Policing Funding grants for register of sponsors on 12 January 2011, 54% received a 2009-10 and each year of the last comprehensive spending pre-licence visit by the UK Border Agency. The remaining review period. 46% received a post-licence visit. Since May 2009 all educational institutions applying to become a sponsor £ million receive a pre-licence visit. 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11

Immigration Controls Neighbourhood Policing Fund 324 332 341 Gross Domestic Product deflators 98.4 100.0 103.1 Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Neighbourhood Policing Fund in 339 343 341 the Home Department what impact assessment her 2010-11 prices Department has undertaken on the effect on scientists and researchers who will be transferred from Tier 1 to Passports Tier 2 under the Government’s proposed changes to the points-based immigration system. [33830] Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many free passports were Damian Green: The Government will give a degree of issued to British citizens born before 2 September 1929 priority within the revised Tier 2 for high-level scientists between March 2009 and March 2010; and whether her and researchers. Department plans to extend the duration of the current We will also introduce a new Tier 1 route for people scheme. [32774] of exceptional talent, such as world-leading scientists and academics who have achieved international recognition Damian Green [holding answer 10 January 2011]: or are likely to do so. Between March 2009 and March 2010, 71,311 applicants Details of the new arrangements will be published in born before 2 September 1929 were issued with a British due course. passport free of charge. This is a special concession for the Second World War generation in recognition of Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for their contribution to the national effort during the war the Home Department what research her Department years. The current concession is not subject to an expiry has undertaken on the effect of the points-based date and there are no plans to limit its duration. immigration system on low-earning but highly- qualified scientists and researchers. [33832] Passports: Lost Property Damian Green: Over last summer we carried out a Duncan Hames: To ask the Secretary of State for the full public consultation on our proposed changes to the Home Department how many compensation claims points-based system, to ensure that we took a wide were made to the UK Border Agency for loss of range of views and evidence on board and into account. passports and other identity documents in each of the Details of the new Tier 1 route for people of exceptional last three years; how many payments against such talent will be published in due course. claims were made; and what the combined monetary Nicola Blackwood: To ask the Secretary of State for value was of such payments. [34202] the Home Department whether she plans to change the number of points allocated for (a) incomes and (b) Damian Green: Information relating to the number of qualifications under Tier 2 of the points-based compensation claims made to the UK Border Agency immigration system. [33833] for loss of identity documents is not centrally recorded. Information for each of the last three years in relation Damian Green: We will publish full details of how the to how many claims were made and the combined revised Tier 2 will operate in future in due course. monetary value of payments is therefore not available. 673W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 674W

Police: Automatic Number Plate Recognition Damian Green: Operation Gomozia was a major investigation carried out by the UK Border Agency as a Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for the result of suspicions being raised after a high number of Home Department what estimate she has made of the immigration applications involving people who had cost of installing automatic number plate recognition married at the Church of St Peter and St Paul in cameras in each police patrol car in each police force. St Leonards. [33223] Of the 379 marriages that formed part of this investigation, current information shows that 81 non- James Brokenshire: The use of Automatic Number European nationals were granted leave to remain. However, Plate Recognition (ANPR) technology, including the the UK Border Agency is still actively investigating all number of police vehicles in which it is installed and the of these cases. Anyone who has gained leave as a result degree of investment in it, is an operational matter for of this scam will have that leave revoked and will face individual police forces. This information is not centrally removal from the UK. collated and no estimate has been made of the cost of installing ANPR in all police patrol vehicles. Theft: Churches

Mr Donohoe: To ask the Secretary of State for the Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Department if she will estimate the cost to the the Home Department how many thefts of building public purse of supplying hand-held automatic number material from faith buildings in (a) England and (b) plate recognition devices to police forces and other Leeds North West constituency have been recorded in appropriate agencies. [34150] the last five years. [34391] James Brokenshire: The acquisition and use of automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) technology, including James Brokenshire: The information requested is not any hand held devices, is an operational matter for available from the police recorded crime statistics collected individual police forces or other relevant agencies. The by the Home Office. information necessary to provide an estimate of the The recorded crime data collected within the Other costs of supplying such devices could be obtained only Theft Group, as with all offence groups, are based on an at disproportionate cost. aggregate count of offences which are defined by statute. Unless the offence specifies the item(s) stolen, e.g. theft Police: Finance of mail, or theft of pedal cycle, it would be recorded within the ‘Other theft or unauthorised taking’classification. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for It is not possible to separately identify thefts of building the Home Department how much funding her material from this classification. Details on the specific Department has allocated to each police force under type of building where the offence occurred are also not the Forensic DNA Grant. [34032] available from the recorded crime statistics. James Brokenshire: The Forensic DNA Grant has not existed as a specific grant since 2006-07 when it was amalgamated into Rule 2 grant. The amalgamated grant PRIME MINISTER was assigned to each police authority with allocation based on actual provision in 2005-06. Liu Xiaobo The allocations for Rule 2 grant in 2006-07 can be found at: Mr MacShane: To ask the Prime Minister whether he http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc0506/hc08/ raised the issue of the continuing imprisonment of Liu 0845/0845.pdf Xiaobo directly and in person with the Vice-Premier of For the provisional Police Grant Settlement for 2011-12, the People’s Republic of China on 10 January 2010. Rule 2 grant has been rolled into Police Main Grant to [33627] give police authorities, and thereafter police and crime The Prime Minister: In my meeting with Vice-Premier commissioners, greater freedom and flexibility over their Li, I discussed the full range of UK interests, including spending decisions. human rights. No subjects were off limits. Police: Roads Office of UK Permanent Representative to EC Guto Bebb: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what guidance her Department has Mr Carswell: To ask the Prime Minister (1) if he will provided to police authorities on the issue of road take steps to enable select committees to hold closure notices under the Town and Police Clauses confirmation hearings before the appointment of each Act 1847. [34085] UK Permanent Representative to the EU; [33851] (2) if he will consider the merits of appointing to the James Brokenshire: The Home Office has provided Cabinet the next UK Permanent Representative to the no such guidance. EU for the purpose of ensuring greater accountability Sham Marriages of that representative to Parliament. [33853]

Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr Lidington: I have been asked to reply. Home Department what estimate she has made of the The post of UK Permanent Representative to the EU number of individuals who obtained leave to remain as is being handled as part of a continuing appointments a result of sham weddings organised by Vladymyr process to fill a number of senior diplomatic posts from Buchak. [34000] within the civil service. Diplomatic service appointments 675W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 676W of ambassadorial rank are agreed by the Secretary of traditionally carried out by the WNC—ensuring that State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and the women’s voices are heard at the centre of Government—will Prime Minister and made by Her Majesty the Queen. be carried out by the GEO. An announcement will be made once this process is GEO has now embarked upon developing a new complete. The Government do not propose to bring approach to enable women and women’s organisations forward proposals to enable either the Foreign Affairs to interact more closely and directly with Government. Select Committee or the European Scrutiny Committee We will be consulting on the new approach early this to have the right to confirm the appointment of a new year; this will include how we engage with former WNC UK Permanent Representative to the European Union, partners and reach a wider range of women and women’s or any other diplomatic service appointment. We do organisations. propose to continue the practice that political appointees to diplomatic service positions should appear before the Select Committee after their appointments have been ATTORNEY-GENERAL made. It would not be appropriate to appoint the UK Permanent Representative to the Cabinet: Ministers are Specialist Fraud Investigation accountable to Parliament for all aspects of the 9. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Attorney-General what Government’s European policy. assessment he has made of the likely effect of the outcome of the comprehensive spending review on specialist fraud investigation services. [33915] WOMEN AND EQUALITIES The Solicitor-General: Over the course of the spending Companies: Directors review period the Law Officers’ Departments which play a part in tackling fraud—namely the Serious Fraud Mrs Grant: To ask the Minister for Women and Office, the Crown Prosecution Service and the National Equalities (1) what steps she is taking to encourage Fraud Authority—will reduce overall spending by 25% FTSE 100 companies to include more women on their in real terms. This is challenging, but presents an boards of directors; [33889] opportunity to rethink processes and organisational (2) what estimate she has made of the percentage of arrangements, without undermining frontline casework. members of executive boards that are women in The Government have also made a commitment, UK-registered companies. [33896] confirmed in the coalition programme, to create a single Lynne Featherstone: We have made no estimate of the Economic Crime Agency (ECA) to rationalise the current percentage of members of executive boards that are piecemeal law enforcement landscape. The Minister for women in UK-registered companies. The Female FTSE Policing and Criminal Justice, my right hon. Friend the Report produced by the Cranfield School of Management Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) provides a regular benchmarking measure of the number and I are actively engaged in this work. The ECA will be of women executive directors in the UK’s top companies. developed in parallel with the National Crime Agency, which will take the lead on organised crime. The 2010 report revealed that only 7.8% of directors of FTSE 250 companies are women1. National Fraud Authority A further recent and broad estimate of the proportion of women on boards across the UK corporate sector as 10. Nick Smith: To ask the Attorney-General what a whole is approximately 7.8%2. responsibilities the Law Officers’ Departments have for the National Fraud Authority. [33916] Lord Davies has been appointed to look at how obstacles can be removed to allow more women to The Solicitor-General: I refer the hon. Member to the make it to the boardroom. Lord Davies is due to report answer I gave to the oral question from the hon. Member with recommendations for an effective business led for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) today. strategy shortly and we will respond to his recommendations Human Trafficking in due course. The further measures that we are taking on positive Mr Bone: To ask the Attorney-General how many action, on flexible working, and on parental leave will people recognised as trafficked under the national also help address some of the barriers to progression referral mechanism procedure were prosecuted for that women face in the workplace. criminal offences by the Crown Prosecution Service in 1 Source—Female FTSE Report, December 2010. each of the last three years. [34018] 2 Source—Women on Boards: A Statistical Review by Country, Region, Sector and Market Index; Governance Metrics International; The Attorney-General: The CPS has no records to March 2009. identify how many people recognised as a trafficked victim under the national referral mechanism have been Women’s National Commission prosecuted for criminal offences in each of the last three years. The National Referral Mechanism was introduced Joan Ruddock: To ask the Minister for Women and on 1 April 2009, and up to 31 December 2010, 1,254 Equalities which bodies are responsible for the referrals have been made for potential victims of trafficking. discharge of functions formerly undertaken by the Women’s National Commission. [33806] Prosecutions: Crime Lynne Featherstone: We announced on 14 October Fiona Mactaggart: To ask the Attorney-General how 2010 that the core functions of the Women’s National many prosecutions were (a) initiated and (b) brought Commission (WNC) will be brought into the Government to court for (i) perverting the course of justice, (ii) Equalities Office (GEO). This means that the work perjury and (iii) wasting police time following the 677W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 678W withdrawal of a complaint of rape or domestic violence Allocation (£) in the (A) last six months for which figures are available and (B) previous six months. [33963] Probation trust Avon and Somerset 1,516,000 The Attorney-General: The Crown Prosecution Service Bedfordshire 1,119,000 (CPS) data systems record offences charged and reaching Cambridgeshire and Peterborough 604,000 a first hearing in a magistrates court, and includes Cheshire 1,088,000 offences of perverting the course of public justice; Cumbria 545,000 perjury; and wasting police time. However, the CPS Derbyshire 569,000 data systems are not capable of identifying whether Devon and Cornwall 995,000 such cases were charged following the withdrawal of a Dorset 1,023,000 complaint of rape or domestic violence or any other Durham Tees Valley 1,024,000 offence. Essex 557,000 In December 2010, in order to provide the Director Gloucestershire 487,000 of Public Prosecutions (DPP) with a snapshot of the Greater Manchester 3,983,000 number of prosecutions of complainants who had made Hampshire 1,596,000 allegations of rape for perverting or attempting to Humberside 1,032,000 pervert the course of public justice, all CPS areas undertook Kent 579,000 a trawl of cases. This identified 113 cases in 2010 Lancashire 1,070,000 involving the consideration of prosecuting a person Leicestershire and Rutland 1,052,000 who had made a rape allegation for perverting or attempting Lincolnshire 502,000 to pervert the course of justice. Of those, 61 were London 5,731,000 prosecuted and convicted; seven were unsuccessful Merseyside 1,577,000 prosecutions (which includes the case being discontinued Norfolk and Suffolk 1,580,000 by the prosecution or acquitted by a jury); and 45 were Northamptonshire 535,000 recorded as ‘other’ which included cases that were awaiting Northumbria 1,037,000 trial and cases that were not yet charged. Nottinghamshire 1,470,000 South Yorkshire 1,671,000 Staffordshire West Midlands 5,152,000 JUSTICE Surrey and Sussex 980,000 Thames Valley 2,678,000 Approved Premises: Community Orders Wales 2,183,000 Warwickshire 1,007,000 Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for West Mercia 496,000 Justice (1) how much funding his Department allocated West Yorkshire 2,461,000 to each probation trust for the administration, running York and North Yorkshire 540,000 and management of approved premises for offenders serving community orders in the last year for which Independent operators 6,795,000 figures are available; [33706] (2) what the average cost was of a place in an Burglary: Sentencing approved premises for an offender serving a community order in 2009-10. [33707] Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice pursuant to the answer of 11 January Mr Blunt: Approved premises accept prisoners released 2011, Official Report, column 263W, on burglary on licence, offenders on community sentences and bailees. offences: custodial sentences, what proportion of These are not differentiated in funding terms, so it is not custodial sentences for burglary offences were possible to give specific figures for residents serving suspended sentences in 2009. [34334] community sentences. The funding allocated to each Probation Trust in Mr Blunt: There were 22,758 offenders sentenced for 2010-11 for the running of approved premises is set out burglary in 2009 of which 44% were given an immediate in the following table. In addition to those run by custody and 10% were given a suspended sentence. Probation Trusts, 11 approved premises are operated by This information can be found in Sentencing Statistics independent third-sector organisations, and these are 2009, supplementary tables la available at the following shown in the table. link: The grant for approved premises in 2009-10 equated http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/sentencingannual.htm to an average £26,600 per bed space. More than one Please note that court proceedings data for 2010 are resident will occupy a single bed space in approved planned to be published in the spring. premises over the course of a year, with an average stay per resident of 74.7 days in March 2010 and 70.8 days Citizens Advice Bureau in November 2010. Approved premises provide for enhanced supervision, Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for particularly of high risk of harm offenders on release Justice what proportion of his Department’s legal aid from custody. It would be much more difficult to provide budget was allocated to (a) solicitors, (b) Citizens that level of supervision, were such offenders to be Advice Bureau and (c) other organisations providing dispersed into less suitable accommodation in the legal advice in the last financial year for which figures community on release from custody. are available. [33693] 679W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 680W

Mr Djanogly: During 2009-10, the last financial year Mr Djanogly: An assessment has not been made in for which figures are available, £2.1 billion was spent on relation to the cost of extending the virtual court as legal aid. Of this, £295 million was spent on legal help, tests are ongoing to examine how a cost-effective operating which is the level of service under which legal advice is model might be developed. provided in civil matters. The following table shows the proportion of legal help spent on solicitor firms, the Crime CAB and other organisations. Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Type of legal aid Total legal help spend Proportion of legal help by what date he proposes to end automatic escalation provider (£ million) budget (percentage) of out-of-court disposals in cases where young people Solicitors 178.6 60 have committed low-level crime. [34111] Citizens Advice Bureau 25.9 9 Other 90.8 31 Mr Blunt: The Government published the Green Total 295.3 100 Paper “Breaking the Cycle” on 7 December 2010. This consultation document includes proposals to end automatic The figures for solicitors include disbursements, which escalation in youth out of court disposals, and a decision are paid to solicitors but may then be paid on to other will be made following the close of this consultation. organisations. Any change on this policy would require primary legislation. The figures for ‘Other’ include not-for-profit Custody: Death organisations, Community Legal Advice Centres, and telephone advice. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for All figures are inclusive of VAT. Justice how much his Department spent on procedures Community Orders: Reoffenders associated with deaths in custody including (a) investigations by the Prison and Probation Ombudsman, (b) inquests and (c) other follow-up Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for action in (i) 2007-08, (ii) 2008-09 and (iii) 2009-10. Justice how many offenders carrying out unpaid work [33773] under community orders were sent back to prison following breaches of the conditions of their order in Mr Blunt: The information in the following table 2009-10. [33705] shows the Prisons and Probation Ombudsman’s average cost of an investigation into a death for each financial Mr Blunt: The information requested is not held year since 2007-08. Also shown is the number of death centrally and could be obtained only at disproportionate in prison custody investigations for each financial year cost. Although statistics are collected on the number of since 2007-08. unpaid work requirements which fail to complete and on the number of prison receptions for breach of a Data on PPO death investigations community order or suspended sentence order, the two Average cost of a death Number of death in prison data sets are separate and it would require a time-consuming investigation (£) custody investigations data-matching exercise to combine them and calculate 2007-08 17,153 183 the number of receptions into custody which were 2008-09 16,436 164 specifically related to breach of an order with an unpaid 2009-10 16,239 179 work requirement. Information about the procedural costs incurred on In 2009-10 23,251 unpaid work requirements attached inquests by local authorities, who are responsible for to community orders and suspended sentence orders funding the coroner system, is not held centrally were revoked for failure to comply or for conviction of a further offence. The procedural costs for any follow up actions related to deaths in prison custody in each financial year since Data published for the calendar year 2009 show that 2007-08 are unknown and can be obtained only at 3,996 persons were received into prison establishments disproportionate costs. in England and Wales for breach of a community sentence and 4,361 for breach of a suspended sentence1. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for These figures have been drawn from administrative Justice what estimate he has made of the cost of legal IT systems, which, as with any large scale recording representation of the Government at inquests into all system, are subject to possible errors with data entry cases where the state is represented including (a) and processing. deaths in custody, (b) deaths of military personnel on 1 Source: active service and (c) hospital deaths in (i) 2007-08, (ii) Table 6.9, Offender Management Caseload Statistics 2009, Ministry 2008-09 and (iii) 2009-10; and how much his of Justice Department spent on legal aid for families of the http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ deceased in such cases. [33774] prisonandprobation.htm Mr Djanogly: The Ministry does not have oversight Courts of the provision of legal advice to the Government as a whole and as such the Ministry does not hold Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for information on the cost of legal advice to other Justice what assessment he has made of the likely cost departments. The estimated cost of the provision of of extending the virtual court system to some or all legal advice and representation of the Government at magistrates courts following the pilot scheme. [33666] inquests following the deaths of military personnel on 681W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 682W active service and hospital deaths are matters for the (2) what the cost to the public purse per prisoner Ministry of Defence (MoD) and the Department for place at HM Prison Ford was in each of the last Health (DoH) respectively. 10 years. [34149] The Ministry does, however, have responsibility for the welfare of prisoners, and, as such, it has obtained Mr Blunt: The following table shows the direct legal advice and representation from the Treasury Solicitor’s establishment expenditure and the corresponding cost Department and Counsel at inquests following the deaths per prison place and per prisoner at HMP Ford for each of prisoners in custody. These costs came to £1.8 million of the last 10 years: in 2007-08; £2.2 million in 2008-09 and £2.7 million in HMP Ford 2009-10. £ Legal aid funding for inquests is not within scope of Direct establishment Cost per the legal aid scheme. Nevertheless, under the Access to expenditure Cost per place prisoner Justice Act 1999, the Lord Chancellor has the power to authorise the Legal Services Commission to grant 2008-09 8,705,446 15,629 16,254 exceptional legal aid funding in cases which are not 2007-08 8,317,316 15,346 17,334 within the scope of the civil legal aid scheme. The total 2006-07 7,676,459 14,189 17,988 amount spent on exceptional funding was £1.1 million 2005-06 7,615,456 14,077 14,905 in 2007-08; £1.5 million in 2008-09 and £1.6 million in 2004-05 8,155,014 15,074 15,653 2009-10. While most of the applications for exceptional 2003-04 7,751,286 14,328 15,276 funding are for inquests, it is not possible to disaggregate 2002-03 7,235,485 13,457 14,549 the expenditure on inquests from the total amount 2001-02 6,151,773 12,279 14,968 spent on exceptional funding. 2000-01 5,815,820 11,608 16,114 1999-2000 5,957,172 11,891 16,039 Drug: Offences The costs comprise the establishment’s direct resource expenditure as published in HM Prison Service (HMPS) Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice annual report and accounts, and for 2008-09 with the how many convictions in the London borough of National Offender Management Service (NOMS) annual Bexley for drug-related offences resulted in prison report and accounts. This is only expenditure met locally sentences in the last three years for which figures are at the establishment. available. [33583] For 2007-08 and 2008-09 an overall cost per place/ prisoner which also includes prison related costs met by Mr Blunt: The number of defendants found guilty at NOMS at regional and national level has been calculated all courts and sentenced to immediate custody for drug as follows: offences in the Metropolitan police force area, for the HMP Ford years 2007 to 2009 (latest available) are presented in the £ table. Overall Overall cost per Overall cost per expenditure place prisoner Information at borough level is not collated centrally by the Ministry of Justice. 2008-09 15,554,845 27,926 29,043 Data for 2010 are planned for publication in the 2007-08 12,868,853 23,743 26,819 spring of 2011. The overall average cost for 2007-08 and 2008-09 Number of defendants found guilty at all courts and sentenced to immediate comprises the direct establishment expenditure, (as custody for drug offences in the Metropolitan police force area, for the years 1, 2 recorded in the HMPS and NOMS Agency annual 2007-09 report and accounts), increased by an apportionment of Metropolitan police force area Found guilty Immediate custody relevant costs borne centrally and in the regions by HMPS and NOMS. This involves some estimation. The 2007 10,083 1,687 figures do not include the cost of prisoners held in 2008 12,276 1,924 police or court cells under Operation Safeguard, nor 2009 12,694 1,917 expenditure met by other Government Departments 1 The figures given in the table on court proceedings relate to persons for whom (e.g. Health and Education). Prisoner escort service these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences it is the offence for costs are included. which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for Care should be taken in making comparisons over two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. years as there may be changes in scope and accounting 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and treatment that affect comparability. complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police Cost per prison place is expressed in terms of the forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection certified normal accommodation number of places, which processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those in this case gives a lower unit cost than the cost per data are used. Source: prisoner. Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice. HM Prison Ford: Sentencing HM Prison Ford: Operating Costs John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Justice (1) how many prisoners at HM Prison Ford (1) what the operating cost of HM Prison Ford was in were serving a sentence of four years or more on each of the last 10 years; [34114] 31 December 2010; [33689] 683W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 684W

(2) how many prisoners at HM Prison Ford were HM Prison Ford serving sentences for (a) drug offences and (b) violent offences on 31 December 2010; [33690] Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (3) how many prisoners at HM Prison Ford were what changes there have been to the (a) certified serving sentences of more than four years for (a) drug normal accommodation and (b) operational capacity offences and (b) violence on 31 December 2010; and at HM Prison Ford in the last 10 years. [34148] how many such prisoners had more than two years of their sentences remaining; [33691] Mr Blunt: The certified normal accommodation (CNA) (4) how many prisoners that were transferred to HM at HMP Ford was 501 in December 2000, providing an Prison Ford had more than (a) two, (b) three and (c) operational capacity of 501 places. At the end of December four years of their sentences remaining in the last year 2010, the number of places had increased to a certified for which figures are available. [33692] normal accommodation (CNA) of 557, providing an operational capacity of 557 places. Mr Blunt: The following tables provide relevant information on the prison population for HMP Ford as Offenders: Mental illness at 31 December 2010 relating to sentence length and offence type. Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice However to establish transfer of prisoners to HMP what estimate he has made of the number of offenders Ford would involve disproportionate cost. Prisoners are with mental health disorders who will require not generally allocated to open prisons with more than treatment in the community as a result of his proposals two years to serve to their expected release date. to reduce the prison population. [34039] These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording Mr Blunt: The Ministry of Justice estimate, that as a system, are subject to possible errors with data entry result of full implementation of mental health liaison and processing. and diversion policies in police stations and courts, Table A: Prison population in HMP Ford, by sentence length, on 31 December annually between 3,000-10,000 people might be diverted 2010 away from short prison sentences, instead being suitable Population for treatment by community mental health services, in the majority of cases in combination with a community Sentence length of four years or more 222 sentence. Indeterminate sentences 67 Notes: 1. The figures exclude those recalled to prison. Mr Llwyd: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 2. These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry what steps he plans to take to reduce the number of and processing. offender cases referred to mental health services; and Source: what support he plans to offer to young offenders who Further breakdown of the prison population as published in the 31 December 2010 NOMS ‘Prison Population and Accommodation Briefing’. are unable to access an appropriate mental health Table B: Prison population in HMP Ford, by specific offence group, on 31 service. [34110] December 2010 Population Mr Blunt: I understand the hon. Member’s question Drug offences 146 to refer to an increase in the number of offender cases Violence against the person 115 referred to mental health services. Notes: The Government are committed to diverting mentally 1. The figures include recalls and indeterminate sentences. 2. These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with ill offenders from the criminal justice system where any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry appropriate and increasing access to mental health services. and processing. In particular proposals about the NHS making available Source: Further breakdown of the prison population as published in the 31 December mental health liaison and diversion services at police 2010 NOMS ‘Prison Population and Accommodation Briefing’. stations and courts by 2014, for young and adult offenders, Table C: Prison population in HMP Ford, by sentence length and specific are set out in “Breaking the Cycle: Effective Punishment, offence group, on 31 December 2010 Rehabilitation and Sentencing of Offenders” published Sentence length of four Those with more than years or more two years to serve by the Ministry of Justice in December 2010. The cross-Government Mental Health Strategy, Drug offences 113 2 due to be launched by the Department of Health on Violence against the 32 0 person 24 January 2011, aims to improve mental health outcomes Notes: for people of all ages, including offenders. It will take a 1. The figures include immediate custodial sentenced prisoners and those life course approach and prioritise early intervention. recalled to prison. 2. We provided sentence length of four years or more in order to be consistent with the content of our publication. Prisoners 3. Prisoners are not generally allocated to open prisons with more than two years to serve to their expected release date. Both of the drugs cases with more than two years to serve have less than three years to serve. 4. These figures have been drawn from administrative IT systems which, as with Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice any large scale recording system, are subject to possible errors with data entry what the average cost per prisoner to his Department is and processing. of a category C prisoner in the latest period for which Source: Further breakdown of the prison population as published in the 31 December figures are available; and if he will make a statement. 2010 NOMS ‘Prison Population and Accommodation Briefing’. [33715] 685W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 686W

Mr Blunt: The average direct establishment cost per Prisoners’ Release prisoner and per prison place in category C establishments is as follows: Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Direct public sector establishment expenditure 2008-09 Justice whether he plans to review the criteria by which Category C establishments £ parole boards assess risk to the public when considering release of prisoners serving an Cost per prisoner 22,713 indeterminate sentence for public protection. [33601] Cost per prison place 23,541

The costs comprise the public sector establishments’ Mr Blunt: We are conducting an assessment of sentencing direct resource expenditure as published in the National to ensure that it is effective in deterring crime, protecting Offender Management Service (NOMS) annual report the public, punishing offenders and cutting reoffending. and accounts. This is only expenditure met locally at On 7 December we published proposals in the Green each establishment. Paper, “Breaking the Cycle: effective punishment, rehabilitation and sentencing of offenders”, for public The costs represent the total cost per place/prisoner consultation. These proposals included the reform of at each prison where the majority use at the end of each sentences of Imprisonment for Public Protection (IPPs). year was for category C prisoners. There is no adjustment As now, offenders who have completed their minimum for prisons holding prisoners of more than one category. term will still have to undergo a risk assessment before For 2008-09 an overall cost per place/prisoner which being considered for release, and the Parole Board will also includes prison related costs met by NOMS at consider whether each individual case is suitable for regional and national level has been calculated as follows: release on licence. We are, however, proposing to make Total overall cost of public and private establishments 2008-09 amendments to the risk test used by the Parole Board, Category C establishments £ so that the Parole Board will need to satisfy themselves that the offender presents a risk which cannot be managed Cost per prisoner 36,330 in the community. These proposals have been published Cost per prison place 37,656 on the Ministry of Justice website at: The overall average cost for 2008-09 comprises the www.justice.gov.uk expenditure on public and private prisons (as recorded Prisoners’ Release: Rehabilitation in the NOMS agency annual report and accounts), increased by an apportionment of relevant costs borne centrally and in the regions by NOMS. This involves Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for some estimation. The figures do not include the cost of Justice what proportion of prisoners serving an prisoners held in police or court cells under Operation indeterminate sentence for public protection have taken Safeguard, nor expenditure met by other Government part in a rehabilitation programme to address Departments (eg Health and Education). The prisoner offending behaviour before reaching their tariff date. escort service costs are included. Expenditure recharged [33603] to the Youth Justice Board in respect of young people is included. Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) does not hold a central record of the dates Cost per prison place is expressed in terms of the that individual prisoners serving indeterminate sentences certified normal accommodation number of places; this of imprisonment for Public Protection (IPP) undertook gives a higher unit cost than the cost per prisoner. accredited programmes. It is, therefore, not possible to identify the proportion of prisoners who had undertaken Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for a programme prior to tariff expiry. Justice how many prisoner places have been destroyed NOMS has implemented a range of measures to or otherwise put out of use as a result of recent improve the progression of indeterminate sentence prisoners disturbances at (a) HM Prison Ford, (b) HM Prison through the prison system, particularly short tariff prisoners, Doncaster Moorland and (c) HM Prison Littlehey. and an additional £3 million allocation was made in [34615] each of the last three years to establishments to support work with this group of prisoners, with a view to Mr Blunt: As a result of the recent concerted indiscipline ensuring assessments are made on time and to improving at the three establishments 61 places were lost at Ford, access to interventions. 265 at Moorland and none at Littlehey. Prisoners’ Release: Reoffenders Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many prisoners have been moved away Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for from (a) HM Prison Ford, (b) HM Prison Doncaster Justice pursuant to the answer of 10 January 2011, Moorland and (c) HM Prison Littlehey as a result of Official Report, column 191W, on prisoners’ release: recent disturbances. [34616] reoffenders, what the baseline figure is from which the reduction in reconvictions which will trigger payments Mr Blunt: As at result of the Ford disturbance 86 to social bond investors is to be measured. [34614] prisoners have been transferred out. Following the Moorland disturbances 252 prisoners were transferred Mr Blunt: The Social Impact Bond will work with up out and subsequently 23 prisoners were transferred out to 3,000 adult male short-sentenced prisoners discharged as a precaution against further incidents. 10 prisoners from HMP Peterborough, in three cohorts each comprised were transferred from HMP Littlehey. of approximately 1,000 offenders. 687W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 688W

The baseline will be calculated by an independent additional funding would have been included in the assessor, the contract for which is currently being let by budgets for individual programmes and cannot be identified the Ministry of Justice. This assessor will calculate the separately. total frequency of reconviction events for the offenders The budget for public sector prisons allocated to in each Social Impact Bond cohort, during the 12 months prison probation for the reimbursement of costs for following their release. This will be compared with the seconded probation officers in the 2010-11 financial frequency of conviction events over the same time year was £11.4 million. period for a comparison group of 10,000 offenders released from other prisons, who are identified by the Budgets for prison psychology and prison probation independent assessor as having similar characteristics for the next four years have yet to be determined. to the Peterborough offenders. Responsibility for the funding of prisoner education in England rests with the Department for Business, Prisons: Closures Innovation and Skills (BIS). BIS are still working through the detail of the comprehensive spending Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for review and information will be announced as soon as Justice what reduction in prison capacity will be possible. attributable to the closure of (a) HM Prison Lancaster In 2010-11, BIS plans to spend £171 million on Castle, (b) HM Prison Ashwell and (c) HM Prison offender learning in English public sector prisons. This Morton Hall. [34617] includes spend associated with the employment of heads of learning and skills in prisons, libraries and higher Mr Blunt: The closure of prisons Lancaster Castle education in public sector prisons in England and a and Ashwell and the change of use of Morton Hall to small amount in private sector prisons. an immigration removal centre, to be operated by the In addition £2.4 million is allocated for education in National Offender Management Service on behalf of public sector prisons in Wales. the UK Border Agency, will reduce our current prison capacity by 849 places: The National Offender Management Service (NOMS) provides both physical resources and staff to support Establishment Current operational capacity educational activities for prisoners. It is not possible to separately identify these costs which are not held centrally. Ashwell 214 Education in private prisons is largely run in house and Lancaster Castle 243 the full costs are not available. Morton Hall 392 Training for prisoners is undertaken, mainly by Prison Service staff, while prisoners work or are engaged Helen Goodman: To ask the Secretary of State for in various areas such as prison industries, catering, Justice what the projected savings are from the closure physical education, land based activities, industrial cleaning of (a) HM Prison Lancaster Castle, (b) HM Prison and laundries. The central costs of the training elements Ashwell and (c) HM Prison Morton Hall. [34618] of these, mainly production functions, are not kept centrally. Mr Blunt: On 13 January 2011, the Lord Chancellor NOMS gained co-financing organisation status in and Secretary of State for Justice, my right hon. and January 2009 and successfully bid for a total of £50 million learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) of European social funding to enhance the skills and announced the closure of Lancaster and Ashwell prisons employment services to offenders in prison and the and the change of use of Morton Hall prison to an community. NOMS has been granted the funding over immigration removal centre, to be operated by the 27 months to increase offenders’ employability and National Offender Management Service Agency on behalf improve their access to mainstream support provision. of the UK Border Agency. Funding has been extended into a second phase up to Until the final outturn costs for site decommissioning, 2013. disposal or transfer are known, it is not possible to provide full figures for the savings from the prisons in Prisons: Personnel question. However, in the last financial year, the operating costs for these sites were around £25 million (£10 million at Ashwell, £6.5 million at Lancaster Castle and £8.5 million Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for at Morton Hall) which indicate a potential saving of up Justice how many governors of prisons have left HM to this figure could be made. Prison Service to take up employment in the private sector since 1 January 2009. [34256] Prisons: Finance Mr Blunt: The National Offender Management Service Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for (NOMS) does not keep records of employment taken Justice how much funding he has allocated to (a) up by former prison governors after they have resigned prison psychology, (b) prison probation and (c) or retired from the service. We are aware that a small prison education services in 2010-11; and how much number of senior managers resigned from NOMS in such funding he plans to allocate in each of the next 2010 to take up posts in the private sector, including the four years. [33602] governors of Holloway, Whitemoor, Moorland and Isle of Wight. There may have been others who joined Mr Blunt: The specific budget for public sector private sector providers but there is no requirement for prisons allocated to prison psychology services in the those resigning or retiring to advise the service of their 2010-11 financial year was £85.5 million. However, future employment plans. 689W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 690W

Prisons: Private Sector Mr Blunt: The number of (a) sexual and (b) violent offenders accommodated in approved premises in England Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for and Wales will vary from time to time. Statistical Justice how many jails in England and Wales are run by information about the offending history of offenders private sector companies; and what the name is of each residing in approved premises at any one time is not such company. [34257] collected centrally, although offenders’ assessed level of risk of harm at the point of admission is. Mr Blunt: 11 prisons in England and Wales are run by private sector companies. The companies running Approved premises provide for enhanced supervision, these prisons are Sodexo Justice Services, G4S and particularly of high risk of harm offenders on release Serco. from custody. It would be much more difficult to provide that level of supervision, were such offenders to be Prison Private sector provider dispersed into less suitable accommodation in the community on release from custody. HMP Altcourse G4S HMP Ashfield Serco HMP Bronzefield Sodexo Justice Services Wills HMP and YOI Doncaster Serco HMP Dovegate Serco HMP/YOI Forest Bank Sodexo Justice Services Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for HMP Lowdham Grange Serco Justice if he will assess the (a) drafting requirement HMP/YOI Pare G4S and (b) parliamentary time required for the enactment HMP Peterborough Sodexo Justice Services of legislative provisions to regulate will writing. [33740] HMP Rye Hill G4S HMP Wolds G4S Mr Djanogly: In order for will writing to become Probation regulated, it is likely that primary legislation would be required. In order for will writing to become a reserved Andrew Bridgen: To ask the Secretary of State for activity under the Legal Services Act 2007 (LSA), secondary Justice what plans he has for the future role of legislation would be required. probation services and trusts. [33990] Since the Legal Services Board (LSB) is currently investigating whether or not it would be in the interests Mr Blunt: In the Green Paper “Breaking the Cycle: of the legal consumer to regulate will writing, it will be Effective Punishment, Rehabilitation and Sentencing of more appropriate to await the outcome of that investigation Offenders”, we announced that we would fundamentally before making an assessment of next steps. Although reshape probation services to reduce unnecessary the activity itself is not regulated, under the LSA authorised bureaucracy, empower front-line professionals and make persons that provide will writing services, like solicitors, them more accountable. are regulated by their approved regulator. We will do this by reforming the way in which probation trusts are managed; reviewing targets and standards to ensure greater flexibility and professional discretion; Young Offender Institutions considering the scope and value of different business models, such as public sector workers forming employee- owned co-operatives; and reforming the National Offender Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for Management Service to reduce costs and enable effective Justice what the average cost was of a place in a (a) local commissioning in the longer term. young offenders secure unit and (b) young offender institution in 2009-10. [33626] Reparation By Offenders

Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Blunt: I refer the hon. Member to my reply of Justice what assessment he has made of the effect of 17 November 2010, Official Report, columns 865-67W, central commissioning on local community payback to the hon. Member for Maidstone and the Weald schemes. [33667] (Mrs Grant) and specifically to the information contained therein on the average annual cost per place in a young Mr Blunt: The specifications for the current Community offender institution holding 15 to 18-year-olds at 1 April Payback competition stipulate that a provider will ensure 2009. that the local community is able to express their views Young people in custody can also be placed in secure about the type of work that is undertaken and provide training centres and secure children’s homes. The following local forums with regular updates about the progress of table provides the average annual cost per place in a projects. Liaison must also take place with the local secure training centre and a secure children’s home at Probation Trust and other relevant local bodies to 1 April 2009. The information includes the cost to the engage in discussion concerning local requirements for Youth Justice Board of providing these places and Community Payback projects. excludes VAT. Sexual Offences Average annual cost per place at Gavin Shuker: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 April 2009 (nearest £000) Justice how many people who were originally convicted Secure training centre 160,000 of (a) sexual and (b) violent offences are resident in Secure children’s home 215,000 approved premises in England and Wales. [34255] 691W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 692W

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS Biodiversity

Animals: Antibiotics Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she next Jason McCartney: To ask the Secretary of State for expects to report on progress towards achieving each of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what proportion the 2010 targets for priority species and habitats of antibiotics was administered to (a) domestic and contained in the UK Biodiversity Action Plan. [33687] (b) farmed animals in relation to the amount administered to the human population in the last Richard Benyon: The four administrations of the UK 12 months. [33784] plan to undertake separate, national assessments on the 2010 targets. The timing is a matter for the respective Mr Paice: The most recent data comparing the use of devolved Administrations. In England, the aim is to antimicrobials in human and veterinary medicine are initiate this work in 2011. The approach and extent of from 2007. The report “Overview of Antimicrobial the assessments is expected to vary between each country. Usage and Bacterial Resistance in Selected Human and Animal Pathogens in the UK: 2007”, published in March Thomas Docherty: To ask the Secretary of State for 2010, shows that in 2007 in the UK: Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her most 335 tonnes of antimicrobial active ingredient were sold for recent assessment is of progress towards achieving the animals reared for food; targets contained in the UK Biodiversity Action Plan 34 tonnes were sold for use in domestic animals; and in respect of (a) maintenance of the extent of lowland 19 tonnes were sold in veterinary medicines authorised for raised bog, (b) an increase of 3,784 hectares on the both farmed and domestic animals. extent of lowland heathland, (c) maintenance of the For human use in the same period: extent of intertidal sediment saltmarsh and mudflat 73 tonnes were prescribed in hospitals in England and Wales ecosystems, (d) re-establishment of 800 hectares of (no data were available for Scotland and Northern Ireland in coastal and flood plain grazing marsh of wildlife value 2007); from appropriate land sources, (e) re-establishment of 337 tonnes were prescribed in the community in England, 8,426 hectares of lowland calcareous grassland of Wales and Northern Ireland during 2007; and wildlife value from arable or improved grassland, (f) 41 tonnes were prescribed in the community in Scotland between restoration of 26,880 hectares of non-native April 2007 and March 2008. plantations on ancient woodland sites to native woodland and (g) restoration of 1,736 hectares of Bees: Pesticides lowland meadow from semi-improved and neglected grassland by 2010. [33688] Mr Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is Richard Benyon: Progress towards the UK Biodiversity taking to deter the use of chemicals and pesticides Action Plan targets for 2010 was last assessed in 2008 harmful to bees. [33860] by the UK Biodiversity Partnership. The assessments for the habitat targets mentioned were as follows: Mr Paice: Controls on pesticides work at a number of (a) Maintenance of the extent of lowland raised bog: target levels, initially by identifying the hazard potential, then not achieved. 32,806 ha was reported to have been maintained. by assessing and managing risk. Under European (b) An increase of 3,784 ha on the extent of lowland heathland: legislation, pesticide active substances are first evaluated some progress but target not achieved. 1858 ha was reported to at community level. A key part of this process is an have been created. assessment of the risks to bees. If an active substance (c) Maintenance of the extent of intertidal sediment saltmarsh meets the EU safety requirements then products containing and mudflat ecosystems: 2008 value was not known for the UK, that active substance can be authorised at member state but the England figure was reported as 204,000 ha. level, taking into account that country’s individual (d) Re-establishment of 800 ha of coastal and floodplain agronomic, climatic and dietary requirements. grazing marsh: exceeded. An estimated 11,001 ha was reported to In the UK, pesticide products can only be sold or have been created. used after they have been authorised. As part of this (e) Re-establishment of 8,426 ha of lowland calcareous grassland: process, the Chemicals Regulation Directorate (CRD) some progress but target not achieved. Over 300 ha was reported of the Health and Safety Executive (the Government to have been created in England. body responsible for regulating pesticides) undertakes (f) Restoration of 26,880 ha of non-native plantations on an assessment of the toxicity of each product and the ancient woodland sites to native woodland: some progress. 5,442 ha was reported to have been restored with a further 4,233 under way ways in which spray operators, the public or environment in Wales so target not achieved. (in particular honey bees) may be exposed. The purpose being to ensure that the use of the product poses no (g) Restoration of 1,736 ha of lowland meadow: some progress, however the restoration will take many years and no specific unacceptable risks. figures were reported on the Biodiversity Actions Reporting The controls extend to the use of products and CRD System (BARS). routinely restricts the way products can be used (e.g. Assessments for all other targets can be found at the specifying dose rates, timing and place of application) Biodiversity Actions Reporting System website. to ensure protection of human health and the environment. Users are also legally obliged to take all reasonable Bovine Tuberculosis: Compensation precautions to protect the health of human beings, creatures and plants. Advice on how this can be done is Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for set out in a statutory “Code of Practice for Using Plant Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what financial Protection Products”which, amongst other things, contains compensation is available to farmers who lose cattle guidance on minimising the exposure of bees to pesticides. from a rare breed of bovine tuberculosis. [33662] 693W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 694W

Mr Paice: The Cattle Compensation (England) Drinking Water: Sales Order 2006 sets out how compensation is determined for all TB affected cattle. Since February 2006, compensation Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for in England has been determined primarily using table Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment values, which reflect the average open market sale prices she has made of the effects on the environment of of bovine animals in 47 different categories. The categories recent trends in bottled water sales; and if she will are based on the animal’s age, gender, type (dairy or make a statement. [34023] beef) and status (i.e. pedigree (including rare pedigree breeds) or non-pedigree). Richard Benyon: DEFRA has not carried out any recent research on this topic. A 2009 report by the Carbon Sustainable Development Commission, called “Setting the Table: Advice to Government on Priority elements Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for of Sustainable Diets”included some analysis of a possible Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she guideline about reducing consumption of bottled water plans to introduce mandatory carbon reporting for (Guideline 10 in the report). This concluded that reliable companies by 2012; and if she will make a statement. research and evidence regarding the overall impacts of [34117] bottled water was not available. DEFRA recognises the work the industry is doing to achieve high standards of Mr Paice: I refer the hon. Member to the answer sustainability in what it does. given to the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) Environmental and Sustainable Development Policy on 27 October 2010, Official Report, column 319W. Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Common Agricultural Policy Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps her Department is taking to ensure environmental and Julian Sturdy: To ask the Secretary of State for sustainable development policy is mainstreamed in the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what her work of other Government Departments. [34152] Department’s objectives are for the forthcoming negotiations on the common agricultural policy. [33648] Mr Paice: We are considering the recommendations of the recent Environmental Audit Committee report Mr Paice: The UK wants to see a competitive, thriving on embedding sustainable development across Government, and sustainable EU agriculture and food sector that is and will announce details of our approach in the coming able to rise to the challenges and opportunities of the weeks. future. We therefore need ambitious reform of the common agricultural policy (CAP) to deliver good value for Fisheries: Quotas farmers, taxpayers, consumers and the environment. Future agriculture policy must have viable, competitive Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for farming at its heart, building a stronger European Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when she last agricultural sector that is free to farm and able to met her European counterparts to discuss the compete in global markets. With intense pressures on discarding of fish. [33835] public finances, there should be a substantial cut to the CAP Budget. Future expenditure must be well targeted, Richard Benyon: As UK Fisheries Minister, I lead on delivering measurable outputs that offer real value for discussions with our European counterparts on the money and societal benefits that the market place cannot discarding of fish. At the Fisheries Council in December provide. It should tackle the key objectives of encouraging 2010, I negotiated with the European Commission and a competitive, sustainable EU agriculture sector, reducing member states to agree fishing opportunities for 2011. reliance on subsidies and focusing resources on the The need to find solutions to the problem of discarding provision of environmental public goods. This must be formed an important part of those negotiations. underpinned by further simplification of the CAP and There will be further discussions this year with member reduction of regulatory burdens. states and the Commission on the topic of minimising discards, and the reform of the Common Fisheries Common Fisheries Policy Policy in 2012. The UK will continue to lead the way within the EU on finding practical solutions to the discard issue. Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for discussions her Department has had on reform of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Common Fisheries Policy. [33837] her Department has made of the (a) weight and (b) retail value of edible fish discarded by UK fishermen Richard Benyon: I have had discussions with a range due to their being over-quota in the last 12 months for of organisations and people about Common Fisheries which figures are available. [33836] Policy reform, including the EU Fisheries Commissioner, MEPs, representatives of the fishing industry, processors, Richard Benyon: The total discard estimate in 2009 retailers, and non-government organisations. (the latest period for which figures are available for I will continue to engage with, and seek contributions those fisheries sampled in UK) is 51,179 tonnes. There from, stakeholders in advance of publication of the EU are many reasons explaining these discards; however, Commission’s proposals for reform in early summer. the current system for recording catch and discard data 695W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 696W does not allow us to differentiate (year on year) why many individual businesses already provide excellent each fish is discarded. Despite this, CEFAS analysis, origin information. These principles formalise and conducted in 2010 on the 2008 English and Welsh strengthen the current labelling practices of many discard data, estimated that; businesses. As part of the Structural Form Plan, 54% (13,230 tonnes) of total discards were discarded for DEFRA will be carrying out an assessment of current reasons relating to weak/absent markets (i.e. non-quota species). origin labelling practices in the UK during the first half Quota constraints were estimated to account for 22% (5,390 of this year. tonnes) of discards (i.e. quota species above the legal minimum landing size) National Parks 24% (5,880 tonnes) of total discards were quota species below the legal minimum landing size (MLS) and were too small to Mr Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for land. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what decisions High grading is another type of discarding where about governance arrangements for National Parks fishermen try to optimise the value of their catches by have been made ahead of the closure of the current keeping the good value fish and discarding the poorer consultation; and if she will make a statement. [34079] value ones. This creates a financial profit for fishermen but is still a waste of legally landable fish. A European Richard Benyon [holding answer 17 January 2011]: high grading ban is in place in waters around the UK to No decisions on the governance arrangement for national prevent this behaviour. The extent of high grading has parks will be made until after the consultation has not been successfully separated from estimates for other closed on 1 February and the responses have been types of discarding. Other types of discarding, such as carefully considered. unmarketable species, over quota and under MLS may represent a loss of value to the fishermen and from the Poultry: Animal Welfare fishery. Because discard estimates 1997-2010 have not undergone Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for the same analysis as 2008 data, estimates of the financial Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she impacts of discards for the British fleet as a whole are plans to publish the results of her Department’s unreliable. To simply use the average market value of all research project on beak trimming of hens; and if she fish species as a multiplier would give an inaccurate will make a statement. [34240] estimate of the financial impact of discards. Mr Paice: The three year intervention study by Bristol We do, however, have a more robust study underway university on strategies to reduce the need for beak looking at the economic impact of discarding fish. trimming is not being funded by DEFRA but the Tubney Trust. Food: Labelling Public Footpaths Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment Mr Marcus Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for she has made of the effectiveness of food labelling Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether she practices in the meat and poultry supply industries. plans to review Sections 53 and 54 of the Wildlife and [34158] Countryside Act 1981 to withdraw the provision to re-classify public paths as byways open to all traffic. Mr Paice: The food industry has always shown itself [33596] to be adaptable and flexible to its customers’ demands and much progress has already been made in providing Richard Benyon: Section 54 of the Wildlife and more and better information on food labels. However, Countryside Act 1981 was repealed through section 47 we recognise that more could be done to ensure origin of the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, information is provided on products of interest to consequently enacted by commencement order in May consumers, such as fresh meat. 2006. At the same time all roads used as public paths Discussions in the EU on a new Food Information not yet reclassified under section 54 of the Wildlife and Regulation are ongoing. The UK supported the extension Countryside Act 1981 became restricted byways, under of compulsory origin labelling to all fresh meat, a the Restricted Byways Regulations 2006. review of extending origin labelling for other foods, and Section 53 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act is the a requirement for origin information to be given for legal mechanism for recording all public rights of way main ingredients when origin claims are made. Member and therefore it will not be reviewed. states have reached political agreement on the text, which will now be sent to the European Parliament for Public Sector: Food further consideration. We do not expect the regulation to be adopted and published until early 2012. Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for In the meantime, we continue to work with the food Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps she is industry, retailers and others to encourage better labelling. taking to increase the proportion of publicly-procured Voluntary principles on country of origin labelling, (a) beef, (b) lamb and (c) pork which comes from developed by industry and facilitated by DEFRA, were UK sources. [33723] launched on 24 November and have been agreed by trade associations representing manufacturers, Mr Paice: One of the Government’s priorities is to retailers and the food service sector. All of the major support and develop British farming and encourage supermarkets have signed up to this approach and sustainable food production. To achieve this it needs to 697W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 698W be seen to lead by example and encourage sustainable Sewers: Private Sector food procurement by the Government and the wider public sector. In support of this the Government have Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for made a commitment to source food, subject to no Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate overall increase in costs, meeting British or equivalent she has made of the number of pump stations which standards of production. will be transferred to water companies between This commitment will be included as part of a set of 1 October 2011 and (a) 1 October 2012, (b) 1 October Government Buying Standards for food, covering 2013, (c) 1 October 2014, (d) 1 October 2015 and (e) sustainability of food and catering operations as well as 1 October 2016. [33881] nutrition, which will be mandatory for central Government Departments and will be promoted to the wider public Richard Benyon: Draft regulations for the transfer of sector. These Government Buying Standards, currently private sewers to water and sewerage companies were the subject of an external review ending on 24 January, the subject of consultation between August and November will be published in March this year. 2010 and provide for the transfer of all eligible pumping We know that some Departments are already buying stations by 1 October 2016. The precise timing of the a high proportion of food that meets British or equivalent transfer of individual pumping stations will be a matter standards of production and therefore it should be for each company to determine in light of the need for possible for others to do the same. DEFRA will be improvement or replacement works. The impact assessment working to help all Departments achieve this goal through published alongside the consultation paper estimates guidance and learning from best practice. Departments the total number of pumping stations to be transferred will be asked to report on the extent to which they meet as 22,000. the Government Buying Standards in June 2011. Government, procurement has to comply with EU Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for and UK legislation which is intended to prevent ‘buy Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what assessment national’ policies and encourage free trade and equal she has made of the effect on flood management of access to markets. Any action in contradiction to these transferring private drains, sewers and pump stations principles would run a high risk of legal challenge and to water companies. [33882] would be contrary to the Government’s wider public procurement policy. Richard Benyon: The proposed transfer will significantly aid surface water management, which is currently inhibited by disparate ownership of sewerage assets. One of the Rescue Dogs: Quarantine primary benefits will be better integrated management and maintenance of the transferred assets as part of the public sewerage system. In his report on the 2007 floods, : To ask the Secretary of State for Sir Michael Pitt welcomed the clarification of institutional Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if she will responsibilities that the proposed transfer will bring as consider reducing the quarantine time for UK search a contribution to reducing surface water flooding. The and rescue dogs used in international humanitarian transfer will apply to private foul and surface water assistance missions. [33843] sewers that connect to the public sewerage system. Mr Paice: The UK maintains strict controls on the movement of dogs and cats into the UK. These controls Sudden Oak Disease require all dogs, including working dogs, entering the UK from certain countries to be placed in quarantine Nicky Morgan: To ask the Secretary of State for on their arrival. This is intended to protect us from the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent incursion of serious diseases like rabies. discussions she has had with Ministerial colleagues on However, we recognise the excellent work carried out the spread of Sudden Oak disease in England; and by UK search and rescue dogs in response to international what steps (a) her Department and (b) its agencies are emergencies. We also appreciate that ongoing and regular taking to curtail the spread of the disease. [33284] training is critical for these dogs so that they can maintain their response capability, and the burden that quarantine Mr Paice: I discuss such matters regularly with ministerial places on these animals. colleagues, particularly my noble Friend Lord Henley Each case would need to be considered on an individual who has responsibility for plant health. basis, but we would be willing to work with the relevant In 2009, a five-year £25 million programme began in organisations to explore potential options which prove England and Wales, in addition to ongoing work across an acceptable compromise between the needs of these the UK, to tackle diseases caused by two plant pathogens, dogs, and our disease control requirements. the Phytophthora species “P.ramorum”and “P.kemoviae”. For example, DEFRA worked closely with the Essex “P. ramorum” is known as Sudden Oak Death in the Fire Service in 2009 to develop a system which allowed USA, although the impact on oak species in the UK a rescue dog returning from the earthquake in Indonesia has been limited. to continue her training routine, while maintaining our The focus of the programme has been reconsidered strict controls protecting the public from the very serious since finding “P. ramorum” seriously affecting Japanese disease of rabies. DEFRA is happy to continue working larch trees in the south-west of England in August with search and rescue dog organisations to look at 2009. The programme has been subject to review, in ways to maintain their dogs’ readiness to respond to consultation with a range of interested parties, and the international situations in this manner. outcome of this review should be announced shortly. 699W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 700W

The Forestry Commission has been working closely Richard Benyon: DEFRA is the Rural Champion with the Food and Environment Research Agency to within Government, and its officials engage regularly deliver the programme against the diseases and has with those of other Government Departments to highlight been carrying out annual surveys of woodland since rural issues and ensure that rural interests are taken into 2004. Wherever the pathogen’s presence is confirmed it account in policy making. requires the removal of all infected plants and trees, and I am currently undertaking a programme of rurally- the Forestry Commission takes the same action on the focused meetings with all Ministers from other policy land it manages. Activity has increased significantly Departments, which will naturally include Ministers since “P. ramorum” was confirmed on Japanese larch, from the Department for Communities and Local an important component of commercial forestry, and Government, which will include discussions on delivery currently some 3,000 hectares of Japanese larch are of social and affordable housing, as well as meeting being cleared mainly in south west England and south with Ministers from the Department for Work and Wales in an effort to halt the spread of the disease. Pensions, which will include discussions on the issue of Funding totalling £600,000 has been made available pensioner poverty in rural areas. from the programme funds to help owners arrange for Both are scheduled to take place shortly. the felling and marketing of their timber and the clearance of younger non-commercial crops. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE Sustainable Development Commission Arctic Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) how many Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is staff of the Sustainable Development Commission will on the Arctic region; and if he will make a statement. be (a) transferred to her Department and (b) released [34611] following its abolition; [33308] Mr Bellingham: Our principal aims in the Arctic are (2) what level of savings she expects to accrue from to promote peace and good governance, and increase the abolition of the Sustainable Development UK influence in the region by maintaining good bilateral Commission in each of the next four financial years. and multilateral relationships with the Arctic States, for [33641] example, through supporting the work of the Arctic Council and other international and regional bodies. Mr Paice [holding answer 17 January 2011]: DEFRA and the Sustainable Development Commission (SDC) The UK recognises the need to protect the Arctic are currently reviewing evidence as to which SDC staff environment, particularly in light of rapid regional are eligible to transfer to the Department. This is part climate change, but also recognises that the Arctic region of the Cabinet Office Statement of Practice on Staff is crucial to UK energy security and of increasing Transfers in the Public Sector process. Numbers of staff interest to British business and scientists. The Government who will transfer or be released from the SDC Whitehall therefore works with the Arctic States to promote and office will be known once this process has been completed. support British interests in the region, including in respect of science, energy, fisheries and potential transport DEFRA has contributed approximately £2.5 million routes opened up by the melting sea ice. a year to the SDC’s budget. We are determining the scale of any costs arising from the abolition of the SDC Arms Control as part of the SDC transition project. This will include Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for the cost of redundancy compensation payments as well Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent as salary costs for any staff that transfer into DEFRA. progress his Department has made on negotiations on We anticipate that any costs will be outweighed by the an international arms trade treaty; and if he will make long term savings to DEFRA and to Government. a statement. [34154] There will be some additional savings from the disbanding of the DEFRA team responsible for managing DEFRA’s Alistair Burt: Securing a robust and effective arms relationship with the SDC. trade treaty remains a priority for the Government. The UK played a full and active role at the start of negotiations Work Programme on an arms trade treaty (ATT) in New York in July 2010. Good progress was made at the meeting, with Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for constructive engagement by the majority of UN member Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (1) what states. discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for The UK regularly discusses the ATT with both Work and Pensions on the effect on rural communities supportive states, and those that still have concerns of the proposed Work Programme; [34092] about the treaty. We are also working with non- (2) what assessment she has conducted with the governmental organisations and the UK defence industry Secretary of State for Communities and Local to build support for the ATT, including through the Government of the effects on construction of social funding of a range of ATT related projects. Negotiations housing in rural communities in England over the next will continue at the next preparatory committee meeting in February 2011. five years; [34197] (3) what assessment she has made with the Secretary Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for of State for Work and Pensions on the level of Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his policy is pensioner poverty in rural communities in England on the negotiation of an international arms trade over each of the next five years. [34198] treaty that is legally binding on signatories. [34156] 701W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 702W

Alistair Burt: The UK remains fully committed to Diplomatic Service: Public Appointments negotiating a robust and effective, legally binding arms trade treaty to establish common international standards Jon Trickett: To ask the Secretary of State for for the trade in conventional arms. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on which occasions British ambassadorial posts have been Dr Huppert: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign recruited through open competition in each of the last and Commonwealth Affairs whether he plans to two years. [33827] maintain the post of Ambassador for Multilateral Alistair Burt: There has been no recruitment for Arms Control and Disarmament after the end of the ambassadorial posts through external, open competition current Ambassador’s term of office in 2011. [34341] in the last two years. Alistair Burt: Following an internal reorganisation to India: Entry Clearances our multilateral diplomatic posts in Switzerland, the responsibilities currently held by the Ambassador for Richard Fuller: To ask the Secretary of State for Multilateral Arms Control and Disarmament have Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent been redistributed to ensure that Foreign and representations he has received on the ability of British Commonwealth Office (FCO) resources are best placed citizens to acquire visas to visit countries in the Indian to service both Geneva and non-Geneva based sub-continent. [34261] work. When the current Ambassador’s term ends in Alistair Burt: We cannot go into details on individual 2011, we will retain the post of UK permanent cases. However we are aware that British citizens of representative to the conference on disarmament in Pakistani origin applying for an Indian visa have been Geneva. However leadership of the UK delegations to subject to additional checks by the Indian Government the non-proliferation treaty and the arms trade treaty and these have led to delays. We have raised our concerns will revert to the relevant heads of department at the about this issue with the Ministry of External Affairs FCO in London. This will ensure even greater Whitehall (MEA) and Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) in India, and ministerial co-ordination across the multilateral both bilaterally and in conjunction with European Union arms control and disarmament community, including colleagues. on the arms trade treaty as we approach the critical UN negotiating conference in 2012. I can confirm that India: Foreign Relations multilateral arms control and disarmament continue to Jeremy Lefroy: To ask the Secretary of State for be a high priority for the FCO. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent progress has been made on strengthening the UK’s British Nationals Abroad: Homicide relations with India; and if he will make a statement. [34342] Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when his Department Alistair Burt: The bilateral relationship with India plans to clarify the ambiguity which exists on the sits on solid foundations, but my right hon. Friend the support services offered to British nationals bereaved Prime Minister has made clear that the UK is committed by murder and manslaughter abroad. [33795] to making this partnership stronger, wider and deeper, to mutual benefit. This reflects India’s increasingly Mr Jeremy Browne: The consular support currently important role in the world and our shared interest in available to British nationals bereaved by murder and democracy, sustained economic growth, and global security manslaughter abroad is set out in our publications through effective international institutions. ‘Support for British nationals abroad: a Guide’, and a Since my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s visit ‘Guide for bereaved families’, both available at: to India and the summit with Indian Prime Minister www.fco.gov.uk Singh in July 2010 we have set in train an ambitious We are considering with other interested Departments agenda of practical co-operation. A number of further and agencies how we might improve the support provided visits, including by Cabinet Ministers, have taken place to bereaved families following a murder or manslaughter in both directions. A significant UK trade delegation is abroad. accompanying my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable) British Nationals Abroad: Terrorism on a visit to India this week. In February a forum of chief executive officers from both countries will meet to advise on improving bilateral trade. A new phase in the Mr Spellar: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign UK/India Education and Research initiative will further and Commonwealth Affairs when he plans to enhance co-operation between educational institutions implement the provisions of the Crime and Security and provide a platform for the increased ties in science Act 2010 related to compensation for victims of and technology that will help drive economic growth on terrorism overseas; and if he will make a statement. both sides. Co-operation also continues on defence, [33716] counter terrorism and climate change. Both sides are committed to deepening the relationship Mr Blunt: I have been asked to reply. at the non-governmental level and hon. Members may Lead responsibility for ensuring provision of support be aware of recent parliamentary exchanges. India’s services and compensation to victims of crime rests new membership of the UN Security Council also with the Ministry of Justice. provides an opportunity to engage even more closely on Decisions have not yet been taken with regards to the key international issues and it is the Government’s provisions in the Crime and Security Act 2010. intention to do so. 703W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 704W

Iran: Prisoners Palestinians: Embassies

Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Mr Offord: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations he and Commonwealth Affairs what recent consideration has made to the government of Iran on the arrest of he has given to upgrading the status of the Palestinian Mrs Nasrin Sotoudeh; and if he will make a statement. delegation in London to that of a full diplomatic [33842] mission; and if he will make a statement. [34206]

Alistair Burt: As I said in my statement of 10 January Alistair Burt: We are aware of the steps that some 2011, I am deeply disturbed by the ongoing detention of other EU states have taken to upgrade the status of the Nasrin Sotoudeh, and by the 11 year prison sentence Palestinian Delegations in their capitals. The Palestinians which was recently handed down to her. I have raised have made the same request to the UK, which we are this case on a number of occasions directly with the considering in accordance with our long standing support Iranian embassy in London and will continue to call on for Palestinian state building. the Iranian authorities to overturn these sentences. I am The Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964 and the Diplomatic also deeply concerned by reports that Reza Khandan, and Consular Premises Act 1987 confer diplomatic Ms Sotoudeh’s husband, has now been detained by the privileges and immunities in the UK on accredited authorities. Arrests and harassment of family members diplomats, their families etc. of other states. as a means to exert pressure are entirely unacceptable. I urge Iran to cease its harassment of human rights As the UK does not recognise Palestine as a state, the defenders and lawyers for doing their jobs and defending Palestinian Authority in the UK is not entitled to the those without a voice. privileges and immunities provided for in the United Kingdom Diplomatic Privileges Act 1964 and the Diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987. These Office of UK Permanent Representative to EC Acts implement the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 1964 in UK law, a convention that regulates the diplomatic conduct between states. Mr Carswell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) when he expects to commence the process to identify a successor Russia: Pipelines for the present UK Permanent Representative to the EU; [33852] Mr Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) who will (a) sit on and (b) chair the panel to Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent oversee the appointment procedure of a new representations he has made to the Government of the Permanent Representative to the EU; [33897] Russian Federation on allegations of corruption in the (3) if he will bring forward proposals to enable the construction of the Eastern Siberia-Pacific Ocean oil Foreign Affairs Select Committee to have the right to pipeline. [33982] confirm the appointment of each UK Permanent Representative to the EU; [33898] Mr Lidington: I have made no specific representations (4) if he will bring forward proposals for the about this pipeline. However UK Ministers regularly European Scrutiny Committee to have the right to discuss the business climate in Russia, including corruption, confirm the appointment of each UK Permanent with our Russian counterparts. Representative to the EU. [33899]

Mr Lidington: The post of UK Permanent Representative Sri Lanka: Floods to the EU is being handled as part of a continuing appointments process to fill a number of senior diplomatic Robert Halfon: To ask the Secretary of State for posts from within the civil service. Diplomatic service Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment appointments of ambassadorial rank are agreed by my he has made of the humanitarian situation in the east right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and my right of Sri Lanka following the recent floods; and if he will hon. Friend the Prime Minister, and made by Her make a statement. [34366] Majesty the Queen. An announcement will be made once this process is complete. The Government do not propose to bring forward proposals to enable either the Alistair Burt: I have received regular reports from our Foreign Affairs Select Committee or the European Scrutiny high commission in Colombo on the effect of the floods Committee to have the right to confirm the appointment on central and eastern Sri Lanka. These indicate that of a new UK Permanent Representative to the European over one million people have been affected by the severe Union, or any other diplomatic service appointment. weather and just over 51,000 are displaced as of 17 January We do propose to continue the practice that political 2011. The Sri Lankan Government and the UN are appointees to diplomatic service positions should appear co-ordinating humanitarian relief for the flood victims. before the select committee after their appointments I have expressed to the Sri Lankan Foreign Minister have been made. It would not be appropriate to appoint our sympathy for those affected by these devastating the UK Permanent Representative to the Cabinet: Ministers floods. We will continue to monitor the situation are accountable to Parliament for all aspects of the closely and follow UN assessments of the humanitarian Government’s European policy. operation. 705W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 706W

WORK AND PENSIONS Steve Webb: The Department published a document on ‘Impacts of Housing Benefit proposals: Changes to Children: Maintenance the Local Housing Allowance to be introduced in 2011-12’ on 23 July, which includes analysis at the local authority Mr Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of level. An impact assessment and equality impact assessment State for Work and Pensions whether the Child were published on 30 November. Copies of the documents Support Agency is required to assess income from war have been placed in the Library. We will publish impact disability benefit when calculating payments due in assessments for the remaining measures at the time the respect of children. [34340] relevant legislation is introduced.

Maria Miller: The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Social Fund Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Damian Hinds: To ask the Secretary of State for to write to the hon. Member with the information Work and Pensions what the running costs, excluding requested and I have seen the response. grants and debts written off, were of the Social Fund in Letter from Stephen Geraghty: each year from 2004-05 to 2009-10. [27585] In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive Steve Webb: I apologise for the delay in replying. reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance The administration of Social Fund is mainly carried and Enforcement Commission. out by Jobcentre Plus. The following table provides data You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions back to 2006-07. This is the earliest time for which data whether the Child Support Agency is required to assess income is available for Social Fund activity. from war disability benefit when calculating payments due in Table 1: Social Fund direct staff administration costs respect of children. [34340] £ million Under the current child maintenance scheme introduced in 2003, the receipt of a war disablement pension is a prescribed 2009-10 121.4 benefit for the purposes of the Child Support Act 1991. A 2008-09 97.1 non-resident parent in receipt of a prescribed benefit is liable to 2007-08 82.5 pay maintenance at the flat rate which is currently £5 per week. 2006-07 70.5 In old child maintenance scheme, for cases opened between Notes: 1993 and 2003, a war disablement pension is included in the 1. The costs shown represent the direct staff costs within Jobcentre Plus calculation of the net weekly income but £10 of their total income associated with Social Fund activity. The basis for allocating management, is then disregarded. If the revised calculation leads to a liability of support costs and head office costs has changed over this period and it would be £6.50 or less per week, then they are exempt from paying maintenance. disproportionately costly to attempt to include all of these costs on a comparable basis. I hope you find this answer helpful. 2. The costs cover the direct staff administration costs of Budgeting and Crisis Loans including face to face interviews, Community Care Grants, Funeral Payments and Sure Start Maternity Grants, reviews and appeals and exclude Disability Winter Fuel payments. Debt Management activity is carried out by a Shared Service function on behalf of Jobcentre Plus. Activity specific to Social Fund Debt is not separately identified from the wider debt recovery costs. Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State for 3. The increase in cost mainly reflects increased volumes of Crisis Loans. Work and Pensions what assessment his Department 4. In 2009-10 face to face interviews were introduced where an individual made has carried out on the effects of measures announced a third or subsequent request for a Crisis Loan within a rolling 12 month period. The aim of these interviews is to: as a result of the June 2010 Budget and the Help ensure that the Fund is not being mis-used. Evidence suggests that on Comprehensive Spending Review on people with being invited to interview, significant numbers of applicants either terminate disabilities. [34326] the telephone call or fail to attend the appointment. Help sign-post genuine needy customers for independent money advice so that they can receive help with matters such as budgeting. Maria Miller: Within the Department for Work and Source: Pensions, all Budget and spending review measures will Jobcentre Plus Activity Based Management System be equality impact assessed. Where the detail of policies is still being developed we will publish equality impact Social Security Benefits assessments at the most appropriate time, for example alongside the Welfare Reform Bill. Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Secretary of State for Some policies will be subject to consultation and, Work and Pensions what the average time taken to therefore, the equality impact assessment will be published process notification of changes of circumstance of at a later date, when policies are finalised. benefit claimants (a) resident in Makerfield The equality impacts of Budget changes have been constituency and (b) nationally was in the latest period published where detail of the policy has been finalised, for which figures are available. [34612] and can be found on this Department’s website at: www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/impact%2Dassessments/ : Jobcentre Plus monitor the average equality%2Dimpact%2Dassessments/ time taken to process changes of circumstance via internal measurement indicators using an Average Actual Housing Benefit Clearance Time (AACT) for each benefit. AACT measures the average number of working : To ask the Secretary of State for Work days we take to process changes of circumstance. The and Pensions what assessment he has made of the measure starts when the notification is received in Jobcentre effect on people on low incomes of the Government’s Plus and ends when the relevant details have been proposed reforms to housing benefit. [33931] recorded. 707W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 708W

You have asked for details for claimants resident in The following table shows the latest AACT performance Makerfield constituency these are not processed at for changes of circumstance at both a national level and Makerfield Benefit Delivery Centre (BDC) they are for those processed in Bolton BDC. dealt with by Bolton BDC. Makerfield BDC processes claims made in London.

Change of circumstance: Average Actual Clearance Time Working days 2010 April May June July August September October November December Year to date

National Employment 3.4 2.8 2.8 3.0 3.0 2.9 3.2 3.3 3.0 3.3 and support allowance Incapacity 4.5 7.1 4.9 3.3 4.2 4.8 3.9 3.5 3.2 4.6 benefit Income 2.1 2.0 2.0 2.2 2.2 2.0 2.0 2.1 1.9 2.1 support Jobseeker’s 3.6 3.4 3.1 3.0 2.9 2.9 3.1 3.1 2.9 3.5 allowance

Bolton BDC Employment 2.8 2.6 3.0 2.4 4.3 4.0 3.7 3.2 3.1 3.2 and support allowance Incapacity 1.0 1.0 1.2 1.1 1.4 1.5 1.3 1.0 1.0 2.0 benefit Income 2.9 3.2 3.7 3.4 2.5 2.8 2.8 2.9 2.7 2.8 support Jobseeker’s 3.1 3.6 3.4 2.9 3.1 3.1 3.1 4.0 4.4 3.8 allowance Source: Management Information System Programme (MISP). MISP is the departmental performance management, data capture and reporting tool. This type of internal management information does not form part of the official statistics outputs that are released by the Department in accordance with the UK Statistics Authority’s Code of Practice.

In PDCS we have taken your question to mean what taken to process notification of changes of circumstance is the average number of working days it takes us to of benefit claimants resident in Makerfield constituency. process a notification of change of circumstances. The However we are able to provide information nationally way in which management information is captured means in the following table: that we are unable to provide what the average time

Year to date Average Actual Clearance Time, as at December 2010 Business event Days

Pension credit changes 6.5 Disability living allowance supersessions 39.0 Disability living allowance SofS supersessions 25.0 Disability living allowance maintenance 2.3 Attendance allowance supersessions 24.5 Attendance allowance SofS supersessions 26.2 Attendance allowance maintenance 1.9 Carer’s allowance maintenance 8.9 Notes: 1. A supersession is where the customer raises questions about entitlement to DLA/AA e.g. there has been a change of circumstances and they require more help with personal care or getting about. 2. A Secretary of State Supersession (SofS) is undertaken when information is received that raises questions about a customer’s entitlement to DLA or AA. 3. Maintenance is where the customer reports a change of personal circumstances such as a change of address or bank account etc. 4. The Average Actual Clearance Time (AACT) target measures the average number of days we take to process changes of circumstances. The purpose of the target is to make sure that our customers’ changes of circumstances are processed in a reasonable length of time. 5. The AACT is calculated by dividing the total number of days taken to clear cases by the total number of cases cleared. Example: Total number of working days taken to clear cases is 150; total number of cases cleared is 50. Therefore the average clearance time is 150/50 = 3. Source: Department for Work and Pensions—PDCS Management Information Statistics.

Information for the average time taken to process Social Security Benefits: Scotland notification of changes of circumstances for state pension changes is not captured however we can tell you that the target is 95% in 15 days and the year to date figure for Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for December 2010 is 94.9%. Work and Pensions (1) how many people have been transferred to an alternative benefit following a medical assessment for the purposes of determining 709W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 710W benefit suitability in (a) Rutherglen and Hamilton been submitted in (a) Rutherglen and Hamilton West West constituency, (b) South Lanarkshire and (c) constituency, (b) South Lanarkshire and (c) Scotland Scotland since May 2010; [34335] since May 2010. [34339] (2) how many people have had benefit withdrawn following a medical assessment for the purposes of Chris Grayling: Since the questions all relate to the determining benefit suitability in (a) Rutherglen and Work Capability Assessment (WCA) for Employment Hamilton West constituency, (b) South Lanarkshire and Support Allowance (ESA) in the same geographical and (c) Scotland since May 2010; [34336] areas, a single response addressing all the questions is given in the tables. (3) how many medical assessment decisions have been overturned on appeal in (a) Rutherglen and Information on the destinations of people found fit Hamilton West constituency, (b) South Lanarkshire for work at WCA is not available. Information on WCAs held and their outcomes is not available at the and (c) Scotland since May 2010; [34337] constituency level. (4) how many medical assessments for the purposes Table 1 gives information on all initial WCAs that of determining benefit suitability have been carried out took place between October 2008 (when ESA was in (a) Rutherglen and Hamilton West constituency, introduced) and June 2010, the latest data available. The (b) South Lanarkshire and (c) Scotland since May data are presented for the South Lanarkshire local 2010; [34338] authority area and for the Scotland government office (5) how many appeals against medical assessments region. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10, so for the purposes of determining benefit suitability have columns may not sum to the totals shown.

Table 1: All ESA WCAs held and number of fit for work outcomes for South Lanarkshire LA and Scotland GOR Fit for work All completed work capability assessments Month of assessment South Lanarkshire Scotland South Lanarkshire Scotland

October 2008 — — — — November 2008 0 10 0 20 December 2008 10 140 20 190 January 2009 40 460 50 590 February 2009 60 780 70 1,020 March 2009 130 1,660 150 2,040 April 2009 130 1,680 170 2,170 May 2009 170 2,160 220 2,810 June 2009 220 2,370 300 3,170 July 2009 230 2,670 290 3,590 August 2009 230 2,770 280 3,690 September 2009 210 2,340 280 3,230 October 2009 180 2,810 220 3,690 November 2009 180 3,000 280 4,090 December 2009 200 1,920 270 2,940 January 2010 170 3,050 210 4,010 February 2010 190 2,900 270 3,890 March 2010 230 3,440 300 4,680 April 2010 180 2,650 240 3,870 May 2010 190 3,170 280 4,520 June 2010 140 3,500 230 4,920 Total 3,070 43,500 4,130 59,100 Source: Benefit claims data held by DWP and functional assessment data sourced from Atos Healthcare

Table 2 gives the number and outcome of all completed October 2008 and August 2009, the latest data available. appeals against a fit for work decision at initial WCA in Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10 so columns the requested areas, for ESA claims starting between may not sum to the totals shown.

Table 2: Appeals against an ESA Fit for Work decision at WCA for South Lanarkshire and Scotland Decision in favour of appellant DWP decision upheld Total appeals Month of claim start South Lanarkshire Scotland South Lanarkshire Scotland South Lanarkshire Scotland

October 2008 10 90 10 140 20 230 November 2008 20 380 60 620 80 1,000 December 2008 20 350 50 540 70 890 January 2009 30 490 50 700 80 1,190 February 2009 40 530 60 710 90 1,230 March 2009 40 600 60 770 100 1,370 April 2009 40 550 50 690 90 1,240 May 2009 30 500 50 730 80 1,230 711W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 712W

Table 2: Appeals against an ESA Fit for Work decision at WCA for South Lanarkshire and Scotland Decision in favour of appellant DWP decision upheld Total appeals Month of claim start South Lanarkshire Scotland South Lanarkshire Scotland South Lanarkshire Scotland

June 2009 50 520 60 680 100 1,200 July 2009 20 400 50 580 70 970 August 2009 30 330 50 500 80 820 Total 320 4,730 540 6,640 860 11,370 Source: Benefit claims data held by DWP, functional assessment data sourced from Atos Healthcare and appeals data sourced from the Tribunals Service

Background Currently there are approximately 440,000 children and The tables presented above are equivalent to tables 3 young people up to the age of 25 attending church-based and 5 in the official statistics report on the WCA last activities and youth groups which are staffed by 116,000 published in October 2010. The latest report can be volunteers and an additional 4,900 employed adults. found on the DWP website at the following link. All There is still a desire to work in partnership but WCA data relates to outcomes at initial WCA only, i.e. most recent conversations have inevitably focused on repeat WCA outcomes are excluded from this analysis. how reductions in their budgets will impact on These statistics are regularly updated and present the projects undertaken by the Church and other latest and most reliable data we hold, more information voluntary sector organizations. In Lincolnshire the county is available in the report. council is proposing a 60% cut to the youth budget of http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/esa_wca/ children’s services and there are similar stories from index.php?page=esa_wca_arc across the country. The Church’s concern is not only for Constituency level data young people within it but also those in the wider Information on the home constituency of ESA claims community. is not recorded. Ministers of Religion: Pensions Destinations post ESA While we do hold some data on destinations of Miss McIntosh: To ask the hon. Member for people leaving ESA after a fit for work decision at Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, WCA, this data is incomplete and so not robust. Any what contingency arrangements the Church conclusions drawn from this data would be at best Commissioners have made to cover the pension unreliable and at worst potentially misleading. liabilities of former Roman Catholic priests who ESA appeals data moved to the Church of England in the last five years. Data on people appealing against a fit for work [34163] decision is only available once the appeal has been heard and the result given. Since appeals take around Tony Baldry: Figures held centrally by the Ministry six months to be completed on average, there is a Division of the Archbishop’s Council show that in the significant delay between an appeal being lodged and period 2005-10 the division’s candidate’s panel dealt the result being given. Data are presented for claims with 14 former Roman Catholic priests seeking ordination starting by August 2009 since we expect that the large in the Church of England, of whom 11 were accepted majority of appeals for these cases will have been cleared for ministry. As there is discretion at diocesan level over to date. If we were to provide data on more recent cases the requirements for acceptance into ministry, not all it would be unreliable and probably underestimate the cases are centrally recorded, meaning the national figure true number of appeals. is likely to be higher. There are, however, no pensions implications for the Church Commissioners who are responsible only for clergy pensions earned for service in the Church of England before 1998. CHURCH COMMISSIONERS Youth Groups INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Mark Pritchard: To ask the hon. Member for Banbury, representing the Church Commissioners, Developing Countries: Water what recent discussions the Church Commissioners have had with local authorities on Church-sponsored Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for youth groups. [33926] International Development what steps his Department is taking to raise the profile of sanitation and water Tony Baldry: The Church of England has a long through the Sanitation and Water for All initiative; and history of delivering youth work and currently provides if he will make a statement. [33998] activities outside church for over 439,900 children and young people. At a local level, the church has seen Mr Duncan: The Department for International extensive growth in the number of churches employing Development (DFID) is a member of the Sanitation youth workers in recent years and the establishment of and Water for All initiative (SWA) Steering Committee. some key projects, often with the financial support of Having played a leadership role in establishing of SWA, local authorities. DFID has recently taken on the role of vice chair of the At both national and local levels the Church has had partnership. We are driving the initiative forward to a long history of delivering youth work collaborative help the most off-track countries to make tangible working partnerships with national and local government. progress in water and sanitation. 713W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 714W

India: Poverty Overseas Aid: Climate Change

Penny Mordaunt: To ask the Secretary of State for International Development what recent discussions he Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for has had with the Indian government on its plans to International Development to what use the UK’s reduce poverty; and if he will make a statement. contribution from the Environmental Transformation [34082] Fund to the World Bank’s Climate Investment Funds has been put; what proportion of the contribution was Mr Andrew Mitchell: During my visit to India in in the form of loans; and whether any conditions were November 2010, I had discussions with Indian Ministers placed on the contribution. [34620] on India’s achievements and future plans for poverty reduction. Mr Andrew Mitchell: The Climate Investment Funds The Indian Government sets out their plans to reduce (CIFs) are not World Bank funds, but rather are managed poverty in ‘Five Year Plans’. The current Eleventh Five by an equal number of developing and developed countries. Year Plan 2007-12 is available at: The World Bank acts as trustee and, alongside other www.planningcommission.nic.in/plans/planrel/fiveyr/ multilateral development banks, is one of the agencies welcome.html recipient countries may choose to implement their national programmes. International Assistance The UK’s £735 million contribution to the CIFs Helen Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for is helping 45 developing countries to pilot International Development what progress has been transformational investments in clean technology, made towards each of the millennium development sustainable management of forests, increased access to goals; what steps he plans to take to ensure further renewable energy, and climate resilient development. progress; and if he will make a statement. [33580] For example, the CIFs are expected to install over 12.5GW of renewable energy—enough for the equivalent Mr Duncan: Progress against the millennium development of nearly 16 million households—and increase crop goals is recorded in the Department for International yields for 440,000 people in Bangladesh through improved Development’s (DFID’s) annual report which is published water management. on the DFID website: The money provided to the Environmental www.dfid.gov.uk Transformation Fund under the 2007 comprehensive The Secretary of State for International Development spending review was a capital grant contribution. The has initiated three thorough reviews of UK bilateral UK’s contribution to the CIFs is then used to make aid, multilateral aid and humanitarian emergency response loans on highly concessional terms, with a small proportion programmes. These reviews will determine how we can available as grants. Once loans are repaid to the CIFs, accelerate progress towards the millennium development they can be reinvested in further programmes to help goals and achieve maximum value for money for the other developing countries tackle climate change. UK taxpayer. The results will be announced in the As a first mover in the development of the CIFs, the spring. UK’s contribution of £735 million has leveraged over In December 2010 DFID launched two new frameworks five times this amount ($6.4 billion) from other donors, for results to tackle malaria and prevent deaths during much of this in the form of grants. These donor pledges pregnancy and childbirth. They set out how British aid are, in turn, leveraging further funds from the multilateral money will deliver the coalition Government’s commitment development banks and the private sector. For example, to help halve malaria deaths in at least ten high burden for every £1 of finance for clean technology we have countries in Africa and Asia and save the lives of at agreed to spend, another £8 is being mobilised from least 50,000 women and 250,000 newborns. Full details other sources. are available on the DFID website. In accordance with the International Development Nigeria: Education Act 2002, no conditions were placed on the UK’s contribution, although we are working hard to ensure Mark Lazarowicz: To ask the Secretary of State for that the CIFs deliver results and value for money. International Development what plans his Department has to increase the geographical coverage of its Mr Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Education Sector Support programme in Nigeria. International Development what powers he has to [33844] determine how the UK’s contribution to the World Bank Climate Investment Funds is spent. [34621] Mr O’Brien: The Department for International Development (DFID) does not currently plan to expand the geographical coverage of the Education Sector Support Mr Andrew Mitchell: The UK’s contribution to the programme in Nigeria (ESSPIN). The programme is Climate Investment Funds (CIFs) is paid into a trust working at the Federal level and within six states. This is fund with other donors’ funds. Funding decisions are already a challenging level of operation and the approved taken on a consensus basis by the CIF committees coverage for this programme. DFID is currently assessing which have equal representation from developed and how best to ensure that more children, particularly girls, developing countries. The UK is represented on all the access improved education opportunities in Nigeria. We CIF committees. To ensure the CIFs deliver with maximum are considering through which mechanisms we can best impact we have agreed a set of results frameworks achieve this, with the emphasis on best value for money. which we will use to assess all funding proposals. 715W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 716W

DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Constituency Boundaries Affordable Housing: Construction

5. Kelvin Hopkins: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Ian Mearns: To ask the Secretary of State for what estimate he has made of the likely cost to the Communities and Local Government what his most public purse of redrawing constituency boundaries. recent estimate is of the proportion of new social [33936] rented homes required to be let at the rate of 80% of market rent to meet his target for new affordable home Mr Harper: The Government’s current estimate of construction by 2015. [33197] the costs of undertaking the boundary review under the Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill is Grant Shapps: We will be publishing our impact £11.2 million. assessment on the affordable rent model shortly. House of Lords Reform The number of homes started and delivered in each year will be dependent on agreements between housing associations and the Homes and Communities Agency, 6. Duncan Hames: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister in consultation with local authorities. what proposals on the grandfathering of privileges in the second Chamber he is considering. [33937] Homelessness Mr Harper: The Deputy Prime Minister is chairing a cross-party Committee to produce a draft Bill on House Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for of Lords reform early this year, which will include the Communities and Local Government what his most Government’s proposals on the transition from the recent estimate is of the number of people who are House of Lords to a reformed second chamber. homeless in (a) England, (b) East Sussex and (c) Hastings and Rye constituency. [33703] Alternative Vote: Referendums Grant Shapps: Information about local authorities’ : To ask the Deputy Prime Minister discharge of their duties under homelessness legislation what representations he has received from the Electoral is collected on quarterly P1E returns. Summary information Commission on the preparation time required between about English local housing authorities’ actions under Royal Assent to the Parliamentary Voting System and the homelessness legislation (Part 7 of the Housing Constituencies Act and the date of the referendum to Act 1996) is collected at local authority level, and be held on the alternative vote; and if he will place in published by the Department in the quarterly Statistical the Library a copy of each item of correspondence on Release on Statutory Homelessness, available both in the matter. [34491] the Library of the House and via the DCLG website: http://www.communities.gov.uk/housing/housingresearch/ Mr Harper: The Electoral Commission wrote to the housingstatistics/housingstatisticsby/homelessnessstatistics/ Minister for Political and Constitutional Reform on publicationshomelessness/ 11 January highlighting the key dates and milestones Data collected includes the number of households that must be met between Royal Assent and a polling accepted by local housing authorities as eligible for day of 5 May in order for the Electoral Commission to assistance, unintentionally homeless and in priority need, successfully deliver its key responsibilities in relation to and therefore owed a main homelessness duty (to ensure the referendum on the alternative vote. The Electoral that suitable accommodation is available). If a settled Commission will be publishing this letter on their website home is not immediately available, the authority must and a copy will also be placed in the Library. secure temporary accommodation until a settled home becomes available and this information is also collected. Pete Wishart: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister The number of households accepted as owed a main whether the Government have identified any homelessness duty during the July to September quarter alternative date for a referendum on the alternative of 2010 and the number of households in temporary vote in the event that the Parliamentary Voting System accommodation at the end of September in East Sussex and Constituencies Act does not receive Royal Assent and England are given in the following table: in time for a poll on 5 May 2011. [34492] Number of Number of Mr Harper: The Government are committed to the households accepted households in voting systems referendum on 5 May 2011. No alternative as owed a main temporary date has been identified. homelessness duty accommodation Eastbourne 3 31 Constituencies Hastings 15 26 Lewes 9 57 Nicky Morgan: To ask the Deputy Prime Minister Rother 15 12 when he expects his proposals for fewer and more Wealden 33 54 equally-sized constituencies to be implemented. [33930] Cast Sussex 75 180 England 11,840 49,680 The Deputy Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member Source: to the answer I gave earlier. P1E returns, July to September quarter 2010 717W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 718W

The data is not collected at constituency level. Hastings These figures include not only self-contained dwellings and Rye constituency is made up of electoral wards in but also some bedspaces within communal accommodation, Hastings and Rother. and this inclusion of bedspaces tends to inflate estimates Further information for each local authority is given of the size of the housing association dwelling stock by in the following table at the following link: a small amount. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/xls/ These figures show that, on 31 March 2010, 18.3% of 1791630.xls dwellings in Coventry, 10.2% of dwellings in the west midlands and 9.9% of dwellings in England were owned Information is also collected on rough sleeping. Since 1 1998, only councils in areas with a known, or suspected, by housing associations . rough sleeping problem were required to conduct an 1 Source: official rough sleeper count—which meant that only TSA Regulatory and Statistical Return. 70 councils submitted information to central Government. Figures published in July 2010 showed that under this Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State previous method, on any given night there were 440 rough for Communities and Local Government how many sleepers in England. However, the coalition Government housing association households were refurbished in the wanted a more complete measure of rough sleeping and West Midlands in 2009-10; and if he will make a when the remaining 256 councils provided estimates of statement. [33792] the scale of the problem in their areas, this added a further estimated 807 rough sleepers—taking the national Andrew Stunell: Data on dwellings made decent or total to 1,247 rough sleepers on any given night. All receiving capital works are not collected from housing local authorities in East Sussex gave estimates, these are associations. The number of housing association owned given in the following table along with the England non-decent homes in the west midlands reduced from figure: 6,814 in April 2009 to 2,314 in April 2010.

Number of rough sleepers Housing: Planning Permission Eastbourne 4 Hastings 3 Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Lewes 2 for Communities and Local Government if he will Rother 4 assess the merits of ensuring the new planning system Wealden 0 for housing requires local authorities to assess and East Sussex 13 meet housing need and incentivises local communities England 1,247 to build more homes. [33793] Source: 2010 local authority street counts and estimates Andrew Stunell: On 21 December 2010 the Minister for Decentralisation, my right hon. Friend the Member for The data is not collected at constituency level. Tunbridge Wells (), announced that the National Rough sleeping figures are published by the Department Planning Policy Framework will streamline the national on the DCLG website and are given by local authority suite of planning policies including those currently set in the table at the following link: out in Planning Policy Statement 3: Housing. http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/statistics/xls/ Organisations and individuals are currently being 1648099.xls invited to offer views on priorities and policies that Under new guidance all councils across England will should be included in the new framework before a draft now provide information on rough sleeping. This move is produced and available for formal consultation. follows consultation with homelessness charities and The New Homes Bonus scheme is a powerful, simple, councils and is aimed at getting a clearer picture of the transparent and permanent incentive for local authorities scale of the problem in each area so more targeted and communities to increase their aspirations for housing support can be provided to some of the most vulnerable growth. Commencing in April 2011, the New Homes in society. Bonus will match fund the additional council tax raised for new homes and properties brought back into use, Housing Associations with an additional amount of £350 for affordable homes, for the following six years. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Consultation on the New Homes Bonus closed on for Communities and Local Government what 24 December 2010. We are currently considering all percentage of the total number of households in (a) responses and we will publish the final scheme design in Coventry, (b) the West Midlands and (c) nationally due course. are housed by housing associations. [33791] Tottenham Hotspur Football Club Andrew Stunell: Information for households at local authority level is not available. However, information Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for is available on the number of dwellings owned by Communities and Local Government if he will registered housing associations in England. Although undertake an economic impact assessment of the effect not identical to figures for households, because some on (a) regeneration and (b) the level of employment in dwellings are empty and others can contain more than Tottenham constituency should Tottenham Hotspur one household, these figures are a good proxy for Football Club move its operations from Tottenham to households. Stratford. [33850] 719W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 720W

Robert Neill: The future use of the Olympic Stadium Subject to parliamentary approval, GP consortia will will be assessed against the five agreed objectives set out be responsible for commissioning the great majority of in the pre-qualification questionnaire issued to those national health service services include those for patients parties making a formal bid. All relevant factors will be with cataracts. GP consortia will be responsible for taken into account in coming to a decision. managing their own commissioning budgets, and using these resources to commission services to achieve the best and most cost-efficient outcomes for patients. The HEALTH NHS Commissioning Board will be responsible for the Breast Cancer: Screening allocation and management of the majority of NHS resources from 2013-14. The board will make allocations Mike Freer: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to GP consortia on the basis of achieving equal opportunity what assessment he has made of the effect on the of access to healthcare services in all areas relative to take-up of breast cancer screening of the availability of the prospective incidence of disease and disability. mobile screening units. [34094] Paul Burstow: No assessment has been made on the Cervical Cancer: Screening effect of mobile screening units on breast screening uptake. However, anecdotal evidence suggests that mobile Jackie Doyle-Price: To ask the Secretary of State for units do encourage uptake because they can offer screening Health whether he plans to extend cervical screening to in community settings and are more accessible. women in England who are (a) under the age of 25 The national health service breast screening programme and (b) under the age of 25 and have given birth. (NHSBSP) currently invites women aged 50-70 for screening [34237] every three years. In 2008-09, the latest period for which statistics are available, over 2.2 million women in this Paul Burstow: There are no plans at this time to age-group were invited for screening and uptake was extend cervical screening in England to women who are 73.6% compared with 73.2% in 2007-08. aged under the age of 25, or who are under 25 and have The NHSBSP is in the process of being extended to given birth. In England, cervical screening currently women aged 47 to 73. The NHS Operating Framework starts at age 25 years in line with the recommendations 2011-12, published on 15 December 2010, confirmed of the World Health Organisation and the independent that all local breast screening units should continue the Advisory Committee on Cervical Screening (ACCS). extension in 2011-12. Once completed, the extension The Department is committed to ensuring that the will result in nearly two million additional women being age at which women are invited for cervical screening is eligible for screening. based on the latest available clinical evidence and in the best interests of young women. In May 2009, the ACCS Cancer: Medical Equipment conducted a formal review of the evidence relating to John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the risks and benefits of cervical screening in women if he will make it his policy to ring-fence from under the age of 25. reductions his Department’s capital expenditure on The committee were unanimous in deciding there cancer equipment. [34095] was no reason to lower the age at which screening commences. The reasons for not lowering the screening Paul Burstow: In order to meet the needs of local age were that cervical cancer is very rare in women aged populations, it is the responsibility of individual national under 25; there is no clear evidence of an increase in the health service trusts to purchase cancer equipment from incidence of cervical cancer following the change to the their own financial allocations. The vast majority of screening age limit in England; no new scientific evidence NHS services are procured in this way and there are no was available to support the reintroduction of screening plans to ring fence capital funding for this purpose. in women aged under 25; there is evidence that treatment following screening in this age group can lead to an Cataracts: Medical Treatments increased risk of subsequent premature births, increasing Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for the risk of babies dying or having disabilities; and one Health if he will ensure specific funds are allocated to in three young women screened aged under 25 would enable those with cataracts to have the widest possible have an abnormal result, as opposed to one in 14 for all choice of eye lens treatment under the GP women screened, and there is evidence that this causes commissioning framework; and if he will make a distress and anxiety. statement. [34021] The cervical screening age range is a standing item on the agenda of ACCS meetings. The ACCS reviews all Mr Simon Burns: Primary care trust (PCT) recurrent new research to assess its significance to the screening revenue allocations are not broken down by service or programme and makes recommendations to Ministers policy area. It is currently for PCTs to commission accordingly. services to meet the healthcare needs of their local populations, taking account of local and national priorities. Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Research The White Paper “Liberating the NHS” set out our proposals to devolve power and responsibility for commissioning services to local consortia of general Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for practitioner (GP) practices, supported by the creation Health if he will commission research into the of an NHS Commissioning Board. The Government biomedical causes of myalgic encephalomyelitis. [34319] have consulted on how best to implement the White Paper and on 15 December, published their response. Mr Willetts: I have been asked to reply. 721W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 722W

The Medical Research Council (MRC) is an independent Mr Simon Burns: The Department has issued guidance body which receives its grant in aid from the Department to the profession in Health Technical Memorandum for Business, Innovation and Skills. The MRC is one of (HTM) 01-05: “Decontamination in primary care the main agencies through which the Government support dental practices”, a copy of which has been placed in medical and clinical research. In keeping with the Haldane the Library. This describes both essential quality principle, prioritisation of an individual Research Council’s requirements that all practices need to have in place spending within its allocation is not a decision for as well as best practice requirements that all Ministers. practices should aspire to reach. The Department, with The MRC supports research into all aspects of chronic the Infection Prevention Society has issued a self-assessment fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME), audit tool to help practices assess their own level of and welcomes high-quality research applications in this compliance against the guidelines. A CD ROM version area. The MRC does not normally commission research of the audit tool will also be distributed to practices but supports high-quality investigator led proposals very shortly. submitted in open competition, the selection of projects All primary care dental practices will need to be for funding is determined through peer review. registered with the Care Quality Commission (CQC) An expert group on CFS/ME established by the by April 2011. The standard of local decontamination MRC has worked with experts in the field of CFS/ME procedures within the practice is an integral part of and research leaders in aligned areas to identify and the Health Care Acquired Infections (HCAI) Code of prioritise research topics where the MRC might target Practice, and compliance with the Code is included in efforts to encourage and support high-quality proposals. the essential registration requirements of practices with The MRC is now preparing to take forward these the CQC. recommendations. Further information on research supported by the Departmental Legal Costs MRC and about the work of the group, including the recommendations for research topics and priorities can Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for be found at: Health how much his Department paid to each (a) http://www.mrc.ac.uk/Ourresearch/ResearchInitiatives/ firm of solicitors and (b) barristers’ chambers in each CFSME/index.htm of the last five years. [33743]

Dental Services Mr Simon Burns: The Department obtains solicitor and barrister support in two ways. These are described Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for as follows, together with the available data on expenditure Health if he will commission an independent review of and explanatory notes: Health Technical Memorandum 01-05 on The Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) Legal decontamination in primary dental care practices; and Services provides the Department’s legal support via a if he will make a statement. [33661] service level agreement, and obtains and pays for such services on behalf of the Department, recharging the Mr Simon Burns: Health Technical Memorandum Department later. Summary expenditure for the previous (HTM) 01-05 was produced with extensive input from five years is presented in the following table. However, dentists, and an expert multi-disciplinary working group. DWP are not able to identify expenditure on firms of The group included public health experts, scientists and solicitors or barristers’ chambers without incurring engineers with specialist knowledge of instrument disproportionate cost. decontamination, including protein removal. The HTM proposes a progressive approach to improving quality Legal support costs incurred by DWP on behalf of the Department and ensuring effective risk reduction for patients and Financial year Expenditure (£000) staff. We are confident that the validation processes 2005-06 1,140.5 used were exhaustive and fit for purpose. Drafts of the 2006-07 947.7 guidance were shared with an expert steering group and 2007-08 985.3 the British Dental Association. Comments from the 2008-09 617.7 peer review were considered and changes made where 2009-10 1,229.7 appropriate. In this light, we consider that a further Notes: independent review of the HTM would be an unnecessary 1. These figures include expenditure relating to the Medicines and duplication of the work already carried out. Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, previously Medicines Control The recent survey of decontamination in primary Agency, for the whole period, and for Food Standards Agency up to and including 2006-07. dental care showed that 70%, were already compliant 2. These figures do not include data for other non-departmental with 20%, very near when the guidance was published. public bodies and agencies, which is not held centrally, and would These findings would also suggest that a further review incur disproportionate cost to obtain. was unnecessary. 3. These figures include costs awarded against the Department when a case has been lost. We are not able to separate these out without incurring disproportionate cost. Dental Services: Standards 4. These figures exclude the cost of the legal services team itself. From time to time, directorates in the Department Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for procure solicitor and barrister services directly. Before Health what steps his Department takes to ensure that July 2008, the Department did not collect this data dental practices operate at a satisfactory standard of centrally. Data from July 2008 to date is presented in the decontamination. [33660] following table. 723W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 724W

Legal support expenditure incurred directly by the Department 2014-15 to support the delivery of social care. Our £ assessment of the settlement is that, with an ambitious 2008-09 2009-10 Total programme of efficiency, there is enough funding available Eversheds 1,061,108 — 1,061,108 to enable local authorities both to protect people’s DLA Piper UK 7,824 1,024,098 1,031,922 access to services and deliver new approaches to improve Mills and Reeve 103,041 612,166 715,207 quality and outcomes. Beachcroft 152,983 554,285 707,268 We have achieved this in two ways: Hempsons 133,773 95,819 229,592 The national health service will transfer some funding from the Capsticks 58,231 155,398 213,629 health capital budget to health revenue, to be spent on measures that support social care, which also benefits health. This funding Bevan Brittan 50,651 16,064 66,715 will rise to £1 billion in 2014-15, and will promote improved joint Field Fisher 40,684 — 40,684 working between the health and social care systems. The new Waterhouse NHS operating framework set out specific primary care trust Morgan Cole 25,956 — 25,956 (PCT) allocations that they will transfer to local authorities for Addleshaw Goddard 6,332 — 6,332 spending on social care services to benefit health, and to improve Pinsent Masons 6,000 — 6,000 overall health gain. PCTs and local authorities will need to work Berwin Leighton 4,497 — 4,497 together to agree jointly appropriate areas for social care investment, Paisner with a shared analysis of need and a common agreement on the Wragge and Co. 2,931 — 2,931 outcomes to be met. Lee and Priestley 386 — 386 Additional grant funding, rising to £1 billion by 2014-15, will Marsh Brown and — 350 350 be made available for social care. This funding will be allocated in Co. addition to the Department’s existing social care grants, which Freeth Cartwright 127 — 127 will rise in line with inflation. Total grant funding from the Total 1,654,521 2,458,180 4,112,701 Department for social care will reach £2.4 billion by 2014-15. In Notes: order to support local flexibility and to reduce administrative 1. This data is based on expenditure coded as legal services on the burdens, this funding will go to authorities through the formula Department’s financial system. It includes expenditure with the larger legal grant. firms, but which has not been coded as legal services. The Department may have incurred expenditure with other firms, but we are unable to extract this Decisions about access to social care services are data without incurring disproportionate cost. taken by local authorities. We would expect authorities 2. This data excludes expenditure to individual barristers engaged on public to assess the impact of their decisions on those with inquiries. disabilities. Diabetes: Brighton Drugs: Rehabilitation Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for how many (a) NHS and (b) voluntary sector Health how many residents of Brighton, Kemptown residential places are available in (i) England and (ii) constituency were diagnosed with (a) type 1 and (b) West Yorkshire for the treatment of people with drug type 2 diabetes in the last year for which figures are addictions. [33885] available. [34046] Anne Milton: Data on the total number of residential Paul Burstow: Data on numbers of people diagnosed places available in England or West Yorkshire in either with diabetes is collected as part of the National Diabetes national health service or non-statutory settings is not Audit (NDA). available centrally. Participation in the NDA is not mandatory and data However, local drug partnerships will have information is collected by primary care trust (PCT) rather than by on the level of local provision for drug dependency. Up constituency. Brighton and Hove PCT area had only to date contact details for each partnership can be partial participation in the 2008-09 NDA, which is the found via the Home Office website at: last year for which figures are available. The NDA http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20100419081707/ collated data on 6,658 persons with diabetes in Brighton http://drugs.homeoffice.gov.uk/dat/directory/ and Hove PCT. Of these, 911 had type 1 diabetes, 5,625 Data on the number of NHS residential drug treatment had type 2 diabetes and 122 had other types of diabetes. places is not centrally available because planning is It is estimated that there are approximately 13,000 typically done on the basis of the estimated number of people with diabetes in Brighton and Hove PCT. This available treatment episodes rather than the number of estimate uses the PBS Diabetes Population Prevalence physical places/beds. The National Treatment Agency Model Phase 3 (PBS3 model), developed by the Yorkshire (NTA) does not hold data on the estimated number of and Humber Public Health Observatory. available in-patient detoxification treatment episodes in NHS settings. Disability Most, but not all, non-statutory providers of specialist Joan Ruddock: To ask the Secretary of State for residential drug treatment in England provide information Health what assessment his Department has carried on their services, on a voluntary basis, to a national out on the effects of measures announced as a result of online directory called Rehab Online, which is maintained the June 2010 Budget and the comprehensive spending by the NTA for Substance Misuse. Information from review on people with disabilities. [34324] Rehab Online currently suggests that there are 2,285 beds available within the voluntary/private sector (non- Paul Burstow: The 2010 spending review recognised NHS). This includes some alcohol only beds. 187 of the importance of social care in protecting the most these are in the Yorkshire and Humber region, with vulnerable in society, including disabled people. In 12 beds in West Yorkshire. recognition of the pressures on the social care system in These data are incomplete because it does not include a challenging local government settlement, the coalition data from all non-statutory providers or any from the Government have allocated an additional £2 billion by NHS services. 725W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 726W

Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Anne Milton: In our White Paper “Healthy Lives, how many (a) NHS and (b) voluntary sector Healthy People: Our strategy for public health in non-residential places are available in (i) England and England”, published on 30 November 2010, we set our (ii) West Yorkshire for the treatment of people with ambition for the future of public health. Core features drug addictions. [33886] are the establishment of a new body, Public Health England, as part of the Department, and the return to Anne Milton: Providers of non-residential drug treatment local government of public health leadership and in England accept anyone assessed as having a drug responsibility. There will be ring-fenced public health problem. This provision is planned and commissioned funding from within the national health service budget. on the basis of an estimated number of dependent A copy of the White Paper has already been placed in drug users in every local area rather than on a the Library. number of physical community based treatment slots. The number of adults (over 18s) in contact with On 21 December 2010, we published the consultation community drug treatment in England in 2009-10 was document “Healthy Lives, Healthy People: consultation 206,889, of which 25,479 were in the Yorkshire and on the funding and commissioning routes for public Humber region. The average mean wait to commence health”, a copy of which has already been placed in the treatment is six days. Library. The consultation period ends on 31 March. For sexual health, we propose that local authorities will Mike Wood: To ask the Secretary of State for Health be responsible for commissioning comprehensive open- how many (a) residential and (b) non-residential access sexual health services using funds from the ring- places in the (i) NHS and (ii) voluntary sector for the fenced public health budget. These arrangements will treatment of people with drug addictions are occupied also cover sexual health services for young people. by persons with a criminal conviction who are attending treatment as a condition of a court order. Health Services: East Sussex [33887] Anne Milton: Data on the number of people with a Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for criminal conviction in drug treatment as a result of a Health how many temporary (a) nurses, (b) doctors court order are not collected. and (c) office staff were employed in (i) the Conquest Eggs: Contamination Hospital, (ii) Hastings and Rother Primary Care Trust and (iii) East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust in each of Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for the last five years; and what the annual cost to the Health what steps he plans to take to reduce the level of public purse was of each such category of poor quality and contaminated egg imports. [33663] appointment. [33700]

Anne Milton: We are advised by the Food Standards Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in Agency (FSA), which has responsibility for policy on the format requested. Such information as is available is food safety, that general food law places the onus on in the following tables: food businesses to ensure that all of their ingredients Table 1: Hospital and Community Health Services (HCHS): non-medical bank and products are safe and compliant with any relevant staff in specified organisations as at 30 September each specified year legislation. In light of the recent dioxin contamination Headcount incident originating in Germany, the FSA has taken the 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 opportunity to remind food businesses again of their obligations with regard to food safety. Nevertheless, Hastings and Rother while they must meet these obligations, the actual sourcing Primary Care Trust (PCT) Qualified nursing, midwifery 9—964 of raw materials is a commercial matter for the businesses and health visiting bank themselves. staff General Practitioners Unqualified nurse bank staff — — 11 17 2

Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health East Sussex Hospitals NHS what his most recent estimate is of the cost to the Trust public purse of the GP consortia pathfinder Qualified nursing, midwifery 111 66 164 42 120 [34245] and health visiting bank programme. staff Mr Simon Burns: Any costs associated with establishing Unqualified nurse bank staff 251 166 167 112 214 Notes: pathfinders will come from existing primary care trust 1. Work force census figures are not available for individual hospitals. budgets. Clusters will provide a development fund of Therefore, it is not possible to provide the information requested in respect of £2 per head, in addition to, and alongside, existing the Conquest Hospital, which is part of the East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust. 2. The work force census does not collect information on the numbers of practice based commissioning funding, to support the temporary or agency staff. The census does include data on bank nurses for development of general practitioner consortiums. The both qualified and unqualified nursing staff and these are provided in the Department is not monitoring spend on the pathfinder above table. Information on bank doctors is not collected. 3. ‘—’ denotes zero. programme. 4. Data Quality: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks Genito-urinary Medicine: Young People to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality. Where Julie Hilling: To ask the Secretary of State for Health changes impact on figures already published, this is assessed but unless it is what plans he has for future funding for sexual health significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is footnoted in relevant analyses. services for young people in (a) England and (b) Source: Bolton West constituency. [33621] The NHS Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census 727W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 728W

Table 2: Salaries and wages: non-NHS Staff in specified organisations NHS hospital and community health services: non-medical staff in each specified £000 organisation by main staff group as at 30 September each specified year 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 Headcount 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Hastings and Rother PCT Support to ST and T staff 39 33 31 30 30 Medical 00000NHS infrastructure 126 121 111 167 169 Nursing, midwifery 78 0 49 148 44 support and health visiting Central functions 90 105 98 135 126 staff Senior managers 8 6189 Administrative and 66 182 205 358 1,023 Managers 28 10 12 24 34 clerical Other staff or those with 33332 unknown classification East Sussex East Sussex Hospitals NHS 5,165 4,924 4,892 4,746 5,094 Hospitals NHS Trust Trust Professionally qualified 2,094 2,080 2,119 2,030 2,170 Medical 1,041 520 1,129 2,068 3,001 clinical staff Nursing, midwifery 1,378 0 3 8 78 Qualified nursing, 1,607 1,595 1,640 1,545 1,668 and health visiting midwifery and health staff visiting staff Administrative and 263111721Qualified scientific, 487 485 479 485 502 clerical therapeutic and technical Notes: staff 1. The Department does not collect data in respect of individual hospitals. Support to clinical staff 1,974 1,834 1,786 1,617 1,811 Therefore, it is not possible to provide the information requested in respect of Support to doctors and 1,650 1,568 1,545 1,375 1,545 the Conquest Hospital, which is part of the East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust. nursing staff 2. The above table contains figures for spend on non-NHS staff. ‘Non-NHS staff’ denotes staff who do not have a permanent contract of employment Support to ST and T staff 324 266 241 242 266 with the national health service, such as agency staff. Locum and bank staff NHS infrastructure 1,090 1,009 985 1,098 1,113 are not included as these are included within the NHS staff category in the support financial returns, and are not separately identifiable from the data. Central functions 300 305 311 312 315 3. The Department does not collect information exactly in the format requested. For ‘nurses’, the closest equivalent information is held under the Hotel, property and estates 699 626 596 700 694 category ‘Nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff’. For ‘doctors’, the Senior managers 19 24 23 22 22 closest equivalent is ‘Medical staff’ and for ‘office staff’ the closest equivalent Managers 72 54 55 64 82 is ‘Administrative and clerical staff’. 4. Hastings and Rother PCT was established in 2006-07 following the merger Other staff or those with 71210 of its two predecessor PCTs—Bexhill and Rother PCT and Hastings and St unknown classification Leonards PCT. The figures provided for 2005-06 are therefore the sum of the Notes: two predecessor PCTs. 1. Work force census figures are not available for individual hospitals. 5. The financial returns are a means for the NHS to provide planning and Therefore, it is not possible to provide the information requested in respect of costing information to the Department, and these provide a more detailed the Conquest Hospital, which is part of the East Sussex Hospitals NHS Trust. breakdown of individual expenditure lines reported in the audited 2. Data Quality: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks summarisation schedules. The financial returns data are not themselves to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but audited, but are instead validated by reference to the audited summarisation responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. schedules from which the NHS summarised accounts are prepared. There are Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes a number of factors which may distort the figures and they may contain errors impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant and omissions at an individual level (mainly as a result of classification errors) at national level, figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is which are not material at the national level. footnoted in relevant analyses. Source: Source: Financial returns (2005-06 to 2009-10) The NHS Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census.

Amber Rudd: To ask the Secretary of State for Ipswich Hospital: Manpower Health how many hospital managers were employed in (a) the Conquest Hospital, (b) Hastings and Rother Dr Poulter: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Primary Care Trust and (c) East Sussex Hospitals how many hospital managers were employed in (a) NHS Trust in each of the last five years. [33701] Ipswich Hospital, (b) Suffolk primary care trust and (c) in the NHS in Suffolk in each of the last five years. Mr Simon Burns: The information is not available in [33016] the format requested. Such information as is available is in the following table: Mr Simon Burns: The following table shows hospital NHS hospital and community health services: non-medical staff in each specified and community health non medical staff in each specified organisation by main staff group as at 30 September each specified year national health service hospital and community health Headcount service organisation by main staff group as at 30 September 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 each year.

Hastings and Rother 663 651 669 924 896 NHS hospital and community health services: Non-medical staff in each Primary Care Trust (PCT) specified organisation by main staff group as at 30 September each year Professionally qualified 347 350 371 415 403 Headcount clinical staff 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Qualified nursing, 257 262 275 320 295 midwifery and health Total specified 10,979 10,226 9,970 10,114 10,428 1 visiting staff organisations Qualified scientific, 90 88 96 95 108 therapeutic and technical Professionally qualified 5,109 4,828 4,836 5,055 5,383 staff clinical staff Support to clinical staff 187 177 184 339 322 Qualified nursing, 3,744 3,536 3,558 3,716 3,984 Support to doctors and 148 144 153 309 292 midwifery and health nursing staff visiting staff 729W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 730W

NHS hospital and community health services: Non-medical staff in each NHS hospital and community health services: Non-medical staff in each specified organisation by main staff group as at 30 September each year specified organisation by main staff group as at 30 September each year Headcount Headcount 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Qualified scientific, 1,365 1,292 1,278 1,339 1,399 therapeutic and Central functions 211 187 176 170 182 technical staff Hotel, property and 95 93 87 90 90 estates Support to clinical staff 4,041 3,747 3,540 3,425 3,302 Senior managers 9 11 10 10 14 Support to doctors and 3,448 3,150 2,984 2,853 2,693 nursing staff Managers 46 42 43 39 35 Support to ST and T 593 597 556 572 609 staff Suffolk Mental Health 2,362 2,217 2,073 1,907 1,939 Partnership NHS Trust NHS infrastructure 1,821 1,645 1,588 1,628 1,737 support Central functions 702 653 644 682 735 Professionally qualified 794 766 726 762 768 Hotel, property and 753 699 677 678 686 clinical staff estates Senior managers 101 72 78 69 92 Qualified nursing, 632 614 593 621 607 midwifery and health Managers 265 221 189 199 224 visiting staff Other staff or those with 86 66 6 unknown classification Qualified scientific, 162 152 133 141 161 therapeutic and technical staff Suffolk Primary Care 2,181 1,939 1,865 2,129 2,099 Trust Support to clinical staff 974 907 820 612 624 Professionally qualified 1,068 979 984 1,146 1,084 Support to doctors and 952 881 799 587 571 clinical staff nursing staff Qualified nursing, 799 733 714 836 748 midwifery and health Support to ST and T 22 26 21 25 53 visiting staff staff Qualified scientific, 269 246 270 310 336 therapeutic and technical staff NHS infrastructure 594 544 527 533 547 support

Support to clinical staff 746 635 579 660 609 Central functions 215 201 209 217 212 Support to doctors and 645 533 481 574 531 Hotel, property and 291 272 255 240 248 nursing staff estates Support to ST and T 101 102 98 86 78 staff Senior managers 19 12 14 12 19 Managers 69 59 49 64 68 NHS infrastructure 359 319 296 317 400 support Central functions 177 165 150 179 218 West Suffolk Hospitals 2,785 2,540 2,531 2,644 2,494 Hotel, property and 35 37 50 57 53 NHS Trust estates Senior managers 26 14 22 17 33 Managers 121 103 74 64 96 Professionally qualified 1,307 1,228 1,237 1,305 1,212 clinical staff Other staff or those with 86 66 6 unknown classification Qualified nursing, 986 919 932 984 889 midwifery and health visiting staff Ipswich Hospital NHS 3,651 3,530 3,501 3,434 3,896 Trust2 Qualified scientific, 321 309 305 321 323 therapeutic and technical staff Professionally qualified 1,940 1,855 1,889 1,842 2,319 clinical staff Qualified nursing, 1,327 1,270 1,319 1,275 1,740 Support to clinical staff 971 863 845 870 813 midwifery and health visiting staff Support to doctors and 835 745 731 754 677 Qualified scientific, 613 585 570 567 579 nursing staff therapeutic and technical staff Support to ST and T 136 118 114 116 136 staff

Support to clinical staff 1,350 1,342 1,296 1,283 1,256 Support to doctors and 1,016 991 973 938 914 NHS infrastructure 507 449 449 469 469 nursing staff support Support to ST and T 334 351 323 345 342 Central functions 99 100 109 116 123 staff Hotel, property and 332 297 285 291 295 estates NHS infrastructure 361 333 316 309 321 support Senior managers 47 35 32 30 26 731W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 732W

NHS hospital and community health services: Non-medical staff in each Paul Burstow: This information is not available in the specified organisation by main staff group as at 30 September each year requested format. Information is collected centrally on Headcount mental health bed occupancy levels, but this does not 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 identify security levels. According to data collected by Managers 29 17 23 32 25 the Department of Health’s KH03 form, as of September 1 It is impossible to accurately map work force figures to geographical areas. 2010 there were 23,280 beds available in national health The organisations listed cover the parliamentary constituencies of Central service organisations to mental health patients in England, Suffolk and North Ipswich, West Suffolk and South Suffolk. 2 Figures include bank nurses. The number of qualified bank nurses reported of which an average of 20,165 were occupied. More by Ipswich Hospitals NHS Trust increased by 450 between 2008 and 2009. On information about NHS bed occupancy is available 1 October 2006 Ipswich PCT, Suffolk Coastal PCT, Central Suffolk PCT and from the Department’s website at: Suffolk West PCT merged to form Suffolk Primary Care Trust. Figures for 2005 are an aggregate of these predecessor organisations. www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ Note: Performancedataandstatistics/Beds/DH_083781 Data Quality. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but We also collect data on the number of beds in high responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. secure services, which are in the following table: Methods are continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant High secure services 2010-11 bed capacity at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is Number footnoted in relevant analyses. Service Ashworth Broadmoor Rampton Total Source: The NHS Information Centre Non-Medical Workforce Census Male personality 228 232 201 661 Lyme Disease disorder Male learning disability 0 0 48 48 Male dangerous and 04860108 Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for severe personality Health pursuant to the answer of 11 December 2008, disorder Official Report, columns 233-34W, on Lyme disease, Female 0 0 50 50 whether he has plans to record confirmed cases of Total 228 280 359 867 Lyme disease; if he will make Lyme disease a notifiable Source: High Secure Commissioning Team. disease; and whether he has had discussions with the NHS 111 Scottish Executive on the co-ordination of methods to collect data on the number of cases of Lyme disease. Stephen Mosley: To ask the Secretary of State for [33952] Health what methodology will be used by Sheffield University to evaluate the effectiveness of the NHS 111 Anne Milton: Borrelia spp, the causative agent of helpline pilots. [33600] Lyme disease, was made a notifiable causative agent in the Health Protection (Notification) Regulations 2010, Mr Simon Burns: The NHS 111 pilots will be evaluated and all laboratory isolations of Borrelia spp in a human using a baseline and change methodology, alongside sample must now be notified to the Health Protection comparison with control sites. It combines qualitative Agency in England. This mirrors arrangements in Scotland, and quantitative methods, including a population survey, where Borrelia burgdorferi is a notifiable causative agent user survey, analysis of service usage, and performance under the Public Health etc. (Scotland) Act 2008. data from the NHS 111 pilots. The evaluation will also Medical Equipment: Contamination be informed by qualitative staff interviews and workshops. NHS: Negligence Kris Hopkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what guidance his Department issues to the Mr Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for NHS on steps to prevent hospital instruments Health how much the NHS has paid to patients in contaminated by other patients’ flesh and bone from ex-gratia payments to avoid ligation proceedings in being used in operations. [33659] each of the last three years. [33657]

Mr Simon Burns: The Department provides guidance Mr Simon Burns: HM Treasury consider ex-gratia to the national health service on the process of payments to be a form of special payment. HM Treasury’s decontamination in “Health Technical Memorandum definition includes personal injury claims that are settled 01-01: Decontamination of reusable medical devices out of court. Information about local ex-gratia payments Part A: Management and environment”, which has made by the national health service to patients to avoid already been placed in the Library. Specific guidance on litigation is not held centrally. Local NHS bodies record the washing and disinfection of surgical instruments is ‘losses and special payments’ in their consolidated accounts provided in three volumes of “Health Technical and these will include all ex-gratia payments, not just Memorandum 2030: Washer-disinfectors.” those paid to patients or to avoid litigation. The documents have been placed in the Library. The NHS Litigation Authority (NHSLA) records data held centrally specifically on ex-gratia payments Mental Health Services made for clinical, employer and public liability claims settled out of court. As the NHSLA settles the vast Jack Dromey: To ask the Secretary of State for majority of its claims this way, they fall under HM Health (1) how many low-security psychiatric beds are Treasury’s definition of ex-gratia. Data provided by the available in NHS hospitals; [33635] NHSLA will cover payments to patients, although some (2) how many places are available in (a) secure will be made to families/dependants, employees and hospitals and (b) regional medium secure units. [33636] visitors. 733W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 734W

Data on actual payments made each year can be responses from individual GPs who did not identify provided only at disproportionate cost. The NHSLA themselves and who will therefore not be included in has therefore supplied data in the following table which this figure. We also received submissions from organisations shows the total amount of damages paid on claims that represent GPs, for instance, NHS Alliance and the settled out of court where the claim was closed between Royal College of GPs. 2007-10. It should be noted that some actual payments for these claims may have been made in earlier years to Pleural Plaques: Sunderland when the claim was closed. Bridget Phillipson: To ask the Secretary of State for £ Health what recent estimate his Department has made Clinical liability Employer and Total amount public liability paid of the number of cases of pleural plaques in residents of Sunderland. [34034] 2007-08 225,023,267 22,257,496 247,280,762 2008-09 196,195,332 23,323,690 219,519,022 Mr Simon Burns: The Department has made no 2009-10 230,996,377 20,312,554 466,799,784 recent estimate of the number of cases of pleural plaques in residents of Sunderland. However, information on NHS: Pay the number of finished consultant episodes (FCEs) with a named primary or secondary diagnosis of pleural Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for plaques (ICD-10 code J92) in the Sunderland Primary Health how many chief executives of NHS trusts have Care Trust (PCT) area has been set out in the following had a reduction in the level of their salary since May table. 2010; and if he will make a statement. [34061] Number of FCEs with a named primary or secondary diagnosis of pleural plaques Mr Simon Burns: This information is not collected Sunderland Teaching PCT centrally. 2009-10 676 National health service trusts may pay their staff Notes: such remuneration and allowances, and employ them 1. A FCE is a continuous period of admitted patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are counted against the year in which on such terms and conditions, as they consider appropriate. they end. Figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person NHS trusts are public bodies and the remuneration of may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in hospital, or in their senior executive teams is a matter of public record different stays in the same year. 2. The number of episodes where this diagnosis was recorded in any of the 20 and published in their annual accounts. (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07, and seven prior to 2002-03) primary and secondary On 24 May 2010, Sir David Nicholson wrote to diagnosis fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics record. Each episode is only counted once, even if the diagnosis is recorded in more than one diagnosis field chairs of NHS trusts, strongly encouraging them to of the record. consider their approach to pay this year in the context Source: of the Government’s wider approach to senior pay in NHS Information Centre for health and social care the public sector, and in the light of decisions made for Primary Care Trusts: Redundancy other NHS organisations. A copy of this letter has been placed in the Library. Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health NHS: Reorganisation what his most recent estimate is of the number of primary care trust staff who have been made redundant in the latest period for which figures are Valerie Vaz: To ask the Secretary of State for Health available. [34247] what his most recent estimate is of the cost to the public purse of his proposed restructuring of the NHS. Mr Simon Burns: The number of primary care trust [34246] staff who have been made compulsorily redundant for Mr Simon Burns: The White Paper ‘Equity and the latest period for which figures are available is: Excellence: Liberating the NHS’ laid out proposals for Quarter 2 (July to September) of 2010-11: 157 staff were made fundamental changes to the ways that the national compulsorily redundant. health service is structured and run, including for the structures of primary care trusts, strategic health authorities Radiotherapy and the Department. The costs of the transition to the new system will be published shortly in an impact Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment. Health what assessment he has made of the merits of Cyberknife technology for cancer treatment. [33590] Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many responses his Department received Paul Burstow: Cyberknife delivers stereotactic body from GPs to its recent consultation Equity and radiotherapy (SBRT). A sub-group to look at the Excellence, Liberating the NHS. [34332] co-ordination and development of SBRT has been established by the National Radiotherapy Implementation Mr Simon Burns: The Department received some Group (NRIG) to inform its forthcoming report on 6,000 responses to the NHS White Paper “Equity and radiosurgery. The sub-group is undertaking a comparative Excellence: Liberating the NHS” and the associated evaluation of the different machines capable of delivering consultation documents. Around 200 of these responses SRBT, including Cyberknife. The group will also consider were from individual general practitioners (GPs), GP the available evidence and provide advice to commissioners practices or consortia. There may well have been further on this treatment. 735W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 736W

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Transition Programme Excellence (NICE) plans to use the work of NRIG to identify whether there are any indications that would be appropriate for them to evaluate further via the Medical John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Technologies Advisory Committee or other programmes with reference to the letter from the Parliamentary at NICE. Under Secretary of State for Quality of 20 December 2010, (1) what the constituent parts are of the “Improving Outcomes—A Strategy for Cancer”, Transition Programme; and what the (a) terms of published January 2011, acknowledges the importance reference, (b) purpose and (c) membership is of the of providing patients with access to new and emerging working groups involved in their delivery; [34327] treatments and techniques as soon as possible. The strategy confirms our intention to publish guidance on (2) what programme boards were involved in the stereotactic body radiotherapy this year. Transition Programme, referred to in the letter sent to the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health of 20 December 2010; what the membership is South London Healthcare NHS Trust: Ancillary Staff of each such board; on what dates such boards have held meetings; and what the frequency of meetings of Mr Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for Health each such board is. [34328] how many non-medical staff were employed by South London Healthcare NHS Trust in the latest period for Mr Simon Burns: The constituent parts of the transition which figures are available. [33584] programme consist of: 1st Tier: Departmental Board—Chair: Andrew Lansley, Secretary Mr Simon Burns: Figures on how many non-medical of State staff were employed by South London Healthcare NHS Trust in the last period for which figures are available 2nd Tier: DH Executive Board—Chair: Una O’Brien, Permanent Secretary (formerly the Transition Board) are provided in the following table: 3rd Tier: Transition Programme Board—Chair: Richard Douglas, NHS hospital and community health services: Non-medical staff in the South Director General, Policy, Strategy and Finance London Healthcare NHS Trust by main staff group, as at 30 September 2010 4th Tier: Commissioning Development Board—Chair: Barbara Headcount Hakin

South London Healthcare NHS Trust 5,384 Provider Development Board— Chair: Ian Dalton. The purpose, terms of reference and membership for Professionally qualified clinical staff 2,733 these groups have been placed in the Library. Qualified nursing, midwifery and 2,031 health visiting staff John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Qualified scientific, therapeutic and 702 technical (ST&T) staff with reference to the letter from the Parliamentary Support to clinical staff 1,925 Under-Secretary of State for Quality of 20 December Support to doctors and nursing staff 1,523 2010, if he will publish (a) the column headings for Support to ST&T staff 390 each risk register maintained by each constituent part Support to ambulance staff 13 of the Transition Programme, (b) the name and NHS infrastructure support 733 number of each individual risk, (c) the estimated Central functions 498 likelihood and severity of each risk in its unmitigated Hotel, property and estates 160 form, (d) the estimated likelihood and severity of each Senior managers 19 risk in its residual form, (e) whether the risk mitigation Managers 56 on each risk was to tolerate, treat or terminate and (f) Notes: the date on which any risks were escalated to a higher Headcount totals are unlikely to equal the sum of components. When overall level and to whom such risks were escalated for each headcount figures are split into sub categories the sum of the sub totals may risk register maintained by each constituent part of the exceed the overall sum due to inclusion of staff in multiple sub categories. Data Quality: transition programme. [34329] The NHS Information Centre for health and social care seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data but responsibility for data accuracy lies with the organisations providing the data. Methods are Mr Simon Burns: The right hon. Member submitted continually being updated to improve data quality where changes impact on a Freedom of Information request for information on figures already published. This is assessed but unless it is significant at national level figures are not changed. Impact at detailed or local level is the risk register on 29 November 2010. This request was footnoted in relevant analyses. turned down and following an appeal by the right hon. Monthly data: Member the Department is conducting an internal review, As from 21 July 2010 The NHS Information Centre has published experimental, provisional monthly NHS work force data. As expected with which is expected to be completed by 4 February. A full provisional, experimental statistics, some figures may be revised from month reply on conclusion of the review will be provided to the to month as issues are uncovered and resolved. The monthly work force data right hon. Member and a copy will be placed in the are not directly comparable with the annual work force census; they only include those staff on the Electronic Staff Record (ESR) (i.e. the do not Library. include primary care staff or bank staff), they also include locum doctors (not counted in the annual census). There are also new methods of presenting data (headcount methodology is different and there is now a role count). This John Healey: To ask the Secretary of State for Health information is available from September 2009 onwards at the following with reference to the letter from the Parliamentary website: www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/provisionalmonthlyhchsworkforce Under-Secretary of State for Quality of 20 December Source: 2010, what the escalation route was from programme The NHS Information Centre for Health and Social Care Monthly Workforce boards to higher levels of the transition programme. Statistics. [34330] 737W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 738W

Mr Simon Burns: The transition programme consists Main scheme of a collection of implementation programmes, which settlement have an agreed governance structure. The programmes bandings Live Widow Estate Total escalation route includes four tiers, as follows: Total 100,416 54,080 113,018 267,514 Top Tier: Departmental Board 1 3rd Tier: Departmental Executive Board (Formerly the Transition Entry Of Judgment claims were those where the claimant Board ) did not accept the compensation offer but the Judge overseeing the British Coal Respiratory Disease Litigation ruled 2nd Tier: Transition Programme Board that the award should he made and the claim closed. The Bottom Tier: Commissioning Development Board Unaccepted Offers Protocol was the Scottish equivalent of this Provider Development Board. arrangement.

Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Energy and Climate Change how long on average claims to the Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease: Compensation scheme have taken to settle since the scheme’s inception. [34394] Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change how many claims to the Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease scheme have Charles Hendry: Given the scale of the compensation been (a) made and (b) settled from individuals in (i) scheme and the wide range of issues that effected England, (ii) Scotland and (iii) Wales since the scheme’s claims progression it is not possible to produce a folly inception. [34392] meaningful average figure. However, the following table provides a profile for the 591,677 claims settled Charles Hendry: The total number of Chronic to date. 82% of claims were settled within five years. Obstructive Pulmonary Disease (COPD) claims received It should be noted that this includes claims denied, by the Department by the deadline to register a claim in withdrawn and struck out, as well as those claims March 2004 was 591,758, of which 591,677 have been settled by payment: settled by payment, denial or withdrawal as at December 2010. A breakdown of this by England, Scotland and Claim registration to date of Settlement timing profile settlement Wales is shown in the following table: <1 year 17,756 Total claims received Claims settled 1-2 years 115.890 2-3 years 144,437 COPD claims England 476,985 476,919 3-4 years 124,741 COPD claims Scotland 29,405 29,401 4-5 years 85,719 COPD claims Wales 80,086 80,072 5-6 years 40,150 Total COPD claims 591,758 591,677 received 6-7 years 22,747 7-8 years 14,711 8-9 years 10,149 Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for 9-10 years 7,066 Energy and Climate Change what the average award 10 years+ 8,311 made through the Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Total 591,677 Disease scheme has been since the scheme’s inception. [34393] The main reasons for delays in settlement related to Charles Hendry: Of the 591,768 claims made by the the involvement of third party employers, claimants deadline to register a claim in March 2004, 454,686 becoming protected parties or the death of the claimant have been settled by payment and the average award of while the claim remained in process. this cohort was £5,360. Once Compensation Recovery Unit payments are taken into account the average payment was £5,210. The settlement bandings for those claims Dr Whiteford: To ask the Secretary of State for that have been settled via the main claims handling Energy and Climate Change how much administration scheme (i.e. excluding those that have settled via Entry of the Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease scheme of Judgment1 in England and Wales or the Unaccepted has cost to the public purse in each year since its Offers Protocol (UOP) in Scotland or without going inception. [34396] through the full medical process nor the Fast Track Scheme) are: Charles Hendry: As at 31 October 2010, these costs amounted to £715 million since April 1999 in relation to Main scheme settlement the administration of the COPD and VWF compensation bandings Live Widow Estate Total schemes and other coal health related claims. Less than £1,000 35,547 15,311 34,176 85,034 These costs include the Department’s claims handling, £1,000-5,000 46,918 15,462 28,406 90,786 legal, records management, audit activity and associated £5,000-10,000 6,642 3,750 22,099 32,491 administrative costs. £10,000-20,000 5,222 7,432 17,190 29,844 Administrative costs cannot be broken down by More than £20,000 6,087 12,125 11,147 29,359 individual compensation scheme. 739W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 740W

A yearly breakdown of expenditure is as follows: Charles Hendry: DECC Ministers and officials meet with Ofgem on a regular basis to discuss market issues. £ million Ofgem is currently reviewing the retail market and, as

1 part of this, will be looking at how effectively the energy April 1999 to March 2003 139.8 companies have implemented the reforms introduced 2003-04 84.4 following its 2008 Energy Supply Probe, including 2004-05 103.3 overarching standards of conduct, one of which concerned 2005-06 101.5 the offering of unnecessarily complex or confusing 2006-07 84.2 products. Ofgem plan to complete its review by March 2007-08 81.1 2011. 2008-09 61.1 2009-10 47.8 Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 2010-11 (up to 31 October 2010) 12.1 and Climate Change if he will bring forward proposals 1 Please note that information for this period cannot be broken down to give Ofgem the power to investigate energy suppliers by year. that sell energy products that are unnecessarily EAGA: Contracts complex or confusing; and if he will make a statement. [33996]

Mr Knight: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Charles Hendry: To meet its principal duty, to protect and Climate Change what contracts and grants his the interests of consumers, Ofgem actively monitors the Department and its predecessor awarded to Eaga in activities of licence holders and therefore does not need each of the last three years; and for what purpose each the additional powers proposed to investigate energy was awarded. [33772] suppliers’ compliance with the overarching standards, one of which concerned the offering of unnecessarily Gregory Barker: In 2005, the Department of complex or confusing products. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs awarded a contract In an open letter Ofgem has stated that they have to Eaga plc to manage the Warm Front scheme that regard to the overarching standards when considering provides heating and insulation measures to vulnerable their priorities for investigating potential licence breaches private sector households. The contract runs to the end and when considering consumer detriment in the context of March 2011 with an option to extend for a further of investigations. two years. This letter is available online at: Energy Supply http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Markets/RetMkts/ensuppro/ Documents1/ Standards%20of%20conduct%20for%20suppliers% Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for 20in%20the%20retail%20energy%20market.pdf Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to In addition, Ofgem is currently reviewing the retail take as a result of his forecasts of levels of energy market and, as part of this, will be looking at how supply and demand; and if he will make a statement. effectively the energy companies have implemented the [34404] reforms introduced following its 2008 Energy Supply Probe, including overarching standards of conduct. Charles Hendry: The Energy Bill seeks to amend Ofgem plan to complete its review by March 2011. existing legislation to require the Gas and Electricity Markets Authority, which governs Ofgem, to produce Environment Protection: North East an annual report on the security of the electricity supply, including how much capacity GB will need in the future. Tom Blenkinsop: To ask the Secretary of State for The report is to be provided to the Secretary of State. Energy and Climate Change what support his The Secretary of State is best placed to make the Department is providing for start-up and growth of judgment, taking into account factors such as costs and green industries in the North East. [33593] acceptability of interruption of supply. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. review the range of assessments provided by Ofgem and We are making available a number of support measures, will consider the wider political landscape and work which will benefit the North East and other regions; across DECC, for example work related to energy efficiency Support start ups, including those in green industries, through and meeting renewables and emissions targets. a tailored package of measures, including the new enterprise allowance, to help the unemployed become self employed. My right hon. Friend will then publish his assessment of capacity needed to meet electricity demand in Great Three year, £1.4 billion regional growth fund designed to stimulate enterprise by providing support for projects and Britain. programmes with significant potential for economic growth. Energy: Prices Additionally, from DECC £60 million nationally for upgrading of ports infrastructure for offshore wind manufacturing. Local enterprise partnerships will lead on determining local Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy strategies to improve the environment for business and setting and Climate Change whether he has had recent local priorities. discussions with Ofgem on the compliance of energy Through UKTI we provide support to SMEs to access international suppliers with the Overarching Standards of Conduct markets. with respect to the requirement not to supply products In due course, we expect the Green Investment Bank to provide that are unnecessarily complex or confusing; and if he financing for green infrastructure projects. The bank will have will make a statement. [33995] a national remit. 741W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 742W

Specifically in the North East; Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Support of up to £20.7 million to support Nissan’s manufacturing Energy and Climate Change how many reportable gas of electric vehicles and associated battery production in Sunderland. escapes were still awaiting repair in the latest period for £2.4 million has already been made available this financial year which figures are available; and which (a) company to the North East under the Government’s Plugged-In Places and (b) gas network was responsible for the programme, with a further £1.5 million made available out to outstanding repairs in each such case. [34070] 2013. The North East’s Plugged-in Places programme will see around 1,300 vehicle charging points being installed across the Charles Hendry: This is a matter for Ofgem who region over the next three years. inform us that they do not currently collect data on the National Renewable Energy Centre (Narec) in Blyth will receive number of escapes awaiting repair. However, Ofgem is £11.5 million for its offshore wind blade test site and £18.5 million for its offshore wind turbine test site and £10 million for its developing a way to assess the time taken by Gas marine drive train facility. Distribution Network operators to repair gas escapes Tees Valley Industrial programme—£42 million committed to and how they prioritise their work to deal with escapes accelerate industrial transition in the area particularly in the as part of the forthcoming price control. areas of low carbon and advanced manufacturing. Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for Natural Gas Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the average time taken to repair reportable gas Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy escapes in (a) 2008, (b) 2009 and (c) 2010. [34071] and Climate Change what recent assessment he has made of the potential effects on global warming of an Charles Hendry: This is a matter for Ofgem who expansion of the extraction of gas from shale; and inform us that they do not hold data on the time taken what the policy of his Department is on such to repair gas escapes. However, Ofgem is developing a extraction. [33414] way to assess the time taken by Gas Distribution Network operators to repair gas escapes and how they prioritise Charles Hendry: Shale gas exploitation in other countries their work to deal with escapes as part of the forthcoming suggests that the impact on global warming from the price control. extraction and use of this resource can sometimes be higher than that of conventional gas, because of increased Natural Gas: Storage drilling density and well site operations. This impact is expected to vary more between individual shale gas exploitation operations than it does between individual Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for conventional gas fields, making it relatively location Energy and Climate Change how many natural gas dependent. storage facilities (a) are in operation, (b) are under development, (c) have received planning permission, In the UK the first exploration well designed to (d) are awaiting planning permission and (e) have evaluate shale gas potential is currently drilling west of been announced but are not yet subject to a planning Blackpool. However there is no current commercial application; what the (i) capacity or planned capacity production of shale gas within UK territory and no and (ii) location is for each such facility; and what the assessment of the potential impact on global warming planned commissioning date is for each such facility. of such operations has yet been made. [33956] Government support industry’s endeavours in pursuing such energy sources so long as the tapping of such Charles Hendry: Most of the information requested resources proves to be technically, economically, and is published in National Grid’s annual “Ten Year environmentally viable. Statement”, last up-dated in December 2010; see Natural Gas: Safety Tables 4.7C-F. The “Ten Year Statement” is available at: http://www.nationalgrid.com/NR/rdonlyres/E60C7955-5495- Tom Greatrex: To ask the Secretary of State for 4A8A-8E80-8BB4002F602F/44779/ TenYearStatement2010.pdf Energy and Climate Change how many reported gas (a) (b) escapes there were in December 2010, 2009 and Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for (c) 2008; and which (i) company and (ii) gas network Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has was responsible in each such case. [34069] made of the suitability of salt caverns for storage of Charles Hendry: This is a matter for Ofgem who natural gas reserves. [33957] inform us that they do not collect this information on a monthly basis. However annual information is available Charles Hendry: Storage of Natural Gas in salt caverns for the number of public reports of gas escapes made to is a mature and well-established technology and there the four gas distribution network operators as set out in are currently over 70 salt storage facilities in use around the following table. the world. Under the GB consents regime, site-specific issues are Gas distribution network operators a matter for consideration during the consents application Scotia Northern Wales and National gas gas West process. grid gas networks networks utilities Total Caroline Lucas: To ask the Secretary of State for 2007-08 602,205 335,555 148,639 112,126 1,198,525 Energy and Climate Change what (a) discussions 2008-09 603,685 364,082 127,088 113,156 1,208,011 and (b) other communication his Department has 2009-10 580,371 345,624 122,957 109,446 1,158,398 had with the Crown Estate on the charging rates Total 1,786,261 1,045,261 398,684 334,728 3,564,934 applied by the Crown Estate for use of depleted 743W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 744W offshore gas fields under its ownership for gas storage Spending through these renewable financial incentives in the last 12 months; and what the outcome of such at the point of operation/energy use will leverage significant communications was. [33959] amounts of up-front private sector investment in new renewable generating capacity. 2009 analysis estimated Charles Hendry: The Department has had no that there would be around £100 billion of investment communication with the Crown Estate on this subject opportunities in renewable electricity and renewable since 6 May 2010. heat to 2020. “*” = In 2010 prices discounted at the social discount rate of 3.5% Nuclear Power Stations to 2011. Sources: Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for 1 DECC calculations and modelling by Redpoint Energy, 2009 Energy and Climate Change if he will establish an 2 DECC modelling and analysis for the Final Impact Assessment inquiry into the need for new nuclear power stations. of Feed-in Tariffs for Small-Scale, Low Carbon, Electricity Generation, [34403] February 2010 3 DECC calculation and modelling by NERA for the Renewable Charles Hendry: No. The Government, following Heat Incentive consultation document, February 2010 extensive public consultation, are satisfied that there is a 4 Department for Transport analysis clear need for new nuclear power stations to help provide the UK with secure low carbon energy. UK Smart Grid Renewable Energy Zac Goldsmith: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what steps he plans to Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for take to support the development of a UK smart grid. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made [33122] of the likely proportion of energy which will be generated from renewable sources in 2020. [34405] Charles Hendry: We are developing policies to ensure that electricity system infrastructure can meet the key Charles Hendry: The UK has a target to generate challenges for the future network and system balancing. 15% of its energy from renewable sources by 2020. The These policy issues will form part of the Electricity Government are committed to achieving this target. Market Reform White Paper this spring. We are setting Recent analysis indicates that this will require overall up with Ofgem a smart grid forum to guide the actions renewable energy generation of 234 Terawatt hours that we are taking to address future challenges for (TWh) across the electricity, heat and transport sectors, electricity networks. based on central projections of energy consumption for DECC is also managing the implementation phases 2020. of the smart metering programme, which will see the rollout of smart meters to GB households and many Renewable Energy: Finance businesses, paving the way for smart grids. Ofgem has allocated £500 million in funding to encourage Mr Umunna: To ask the Secretary of State for innovation in distribution networks over the next five Energy and Climate Change what recent estimate he years. In addition, by the end of this financial year, has made of the expenditure required in the UK in DECC will have awarded £2.8 million to projects through order to meet renewable energy obligations. [33422] its smart grids capital grants programme under the low carbon investment fund. Charles Hendry: The UK has a legally binding 2020 target of delivering 15% of energy consumption coming Wind Power: Standards from renewable energy. To meet this, it is estimated that around 30% of electricity, around 12% of heat and around 10% of transport demand will come from renewable Bill Esterson: To ask the Secretary of State for sources. Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the proportion of wind turbines that did not reach In order to deliver these levels of renewable energy, their average rated speed in the last 12 months. [34407] expenditure defined as tax and spend by the Office for National Statistics will be incurred through the Renewables Charles Hendry: The Department does not hold Obligation, Feed-in tariffs, the Renewable Heat Incentive information on the average load factors for individual and the Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation. wind turbines or wind farms. The average load factor The spending is estimated at £32 billion* from 2011 for UK onshore wind turbines in 2009 was 26.9%. The to 2020 under the Renewables Obligation1; £3.6 billion* equivalent figure for offshore wind was 33.7%. Figures under small-scale feed-in tariffs2; £9.8 billion* under for the UK in 2010 will be available following the the Renewable Heat Incentive3; and £8.9 billion* under publication of the Digest of UK Energy Statistics in the Renewable Transport Fuels Obligation4. July 2011. Note that these figures represent the total spending. Analysis in 2009 was published showing lower figures Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries based on the additional level of spending resulting from the increase in renewables ambition, on a different price Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy basis. These figures are based on the latest published and Climate Change what his Department’s policy is analysis for the RHI and FITs and do not take into on providing financial support to the hybrid motor account announcements in spending review 2010. vehicle industry. [33634] 745W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 746W

Mr Prisk: I have been asked to reply. Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for To meet UK carbon targets, the road transport sector Defence how much was spent on (a) substitute single needs to be decarbonised and a key element will be the service accommodation and (b) food and incidental move to ultra-low carbon vehicles, including electric allowances in the MOD Hospital Unit, Portsmouth in and plug-in hybrid. The spending review announced the latest period for which figures are available. [33799] provision of in excess of £400 million over the lifetime Mr Robathan: The following table shows how much of this Parliament to support the decarbonisation of was spent on Substitute Single Service Accommodation road transport. This support will include: (SSSA) and Food and Incidental Allowance in the A commitment to a national recharging infrastructure for Ministry of Defence Hospital Unit, Portsmouth for the electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles, informed by the eight Plugged-In Places (PIP) pilot projects which will deliver approximately 8,000 last financial year: charging points, between 2010-13; Period financial The Plug-In Car Grant (PICG) which was successfully launched year Description Total (£) on 1 January 2011. The PICG promotes consumer uptake of ultra-low emission vehicles by providing 25% of the cost of the 2009-10 Excess rent and lodging 525,258.57 car up to a cap of £5,000 to both private and business purchasers allowance of eligible cars (which include the Toyota Prius plug-in hybrid); 2009-10 Messing and food 173,410.36 The Technology Strategy Board’s (TSB) core budget allowance for the upcoming spending review period has yet to be In April 2005, at the beginning of relocation of our allocated and until such a time it will not be possible for military staff to the new Queen Alexandra Hospital the TSB to specify the level of funding that it is likely to (QAH) at Cosham, the use of service accommodation allocate towards the development of Low Carbon Vehicle within the Naval Base and wider Portsmouth area was technology.The TSB has been working in close partnership considered, but none of sufficient quantity was available. with this Department, the Department for Transport As time was the key driver for locating staff nearer to (DfT) and the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research the QAH, accommodation in Fort Blockhouse was not Council (EPSRC) to support Low Carbon Vehicle Research considered: the time taken and distance travelled to get and Development (R and D) under a range of themes— staff to and from work from Fort Blockhouse was well including hybrid vehicle technology—prioritised by an outside Ministry of Defence policy on Tri-Service industry-led steering group and informed by the New accommodation. To meet the needs and entitlements of Automotive Innovation and Growth Team Technology our staff the decision to use SSSA was deemed to be the Roadmap and Automotive Council findings. Funding is minimum necessary response under the prevailing not, however, pre-allocated to specific themes, is subject circumstances and was in full accord with extant policies. to a competitive process and success will depend on the The situation is monitored on a continuous basis. quality of the proposals submitted. The projected R and D spend over the period 1 April Armed Forces: Postal Services 2011-31 March 2015 by the EPSRC in support of the Neil Parish: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence hybrid motor vehicle industry is shown in the following if he will examine the reasons for the (a) delay and (b) table (based on current grants only). restrictions affecting people sending parcels to 25 Flight Army Air Corps in Belize. [34217] EPSRC spend on hybrid motor Financial year vehicle research (£) Peter Luff: British Forces Post Office (BFPO) mail to 2011-12 8,115,823.84 Belize is transported through the USA and was therefore 2012-13 4,065,194.30 temporarily affected by the security restrictions resulting 2013-14 2,369,970.74 from the toner cartridge bomb alert in early November 2014-15 1,312,166.87 2010. The backlog was cleared and deliveries made to Total 15,863,155.75 Belize in time for Christmas. As a result of this incident the USA has imposed additional restrictions of the The DfT funded Low Carbon Vehicle Public carriage of mail weighing more than 500 grams. Procurement programme has provided 200 all-electric Delivery times for BFPO mail/parcels to all destinations and hybrid vans into public sector fleets. The value of are regularly monitored and the average time for delivery this has been £6 million in the financial year 2010-11, from anywhere in the UK to Belize through the BFPO and will be £1 million in 2011-12. system is currently between four and 11 days, largely DfT pays a bus subsidy incentive, at a rate of 6 pence dependent on whether the package weighs more than per kilometre, to bus operators in England who use low 500 grams. carbon buses (including hybrid buses) on their local bus network. Colchester Garrison Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFENCE Defence what the (a) size and (b) structure was of the Ministry of Defence Police force presence at Colchester Armed Forces: Housing Garrison on (i) 31 May 1997, (ii) 31 May 2001, (iii) Caroline Dinenage: To ask the Secretary of State for 31 May 2005, (iv) 31 May 2010 and (v) the latest date Defence how many personnel at the MOD Hospital for which figures are available. [34333] Unit, Portsmouth, are housed in private sector rental Mr Robathan: The size and structure of Ministry of accommodation. [33798] Defence police (MDP) officers employed at Colchester Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence Hospital Garrison on 31 May 1997, 31 May 2001, 31 May 2005, Unit in Portsmouth currently has 122 service personnel 31 May 2010 and the latest date for which figures are housed in private sector rental accommodation. available 17 January 2011, are as follows: 747W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 748W

Cancer Research since then have found no evidence of a Date Inspector Sergeant Constable Total general adverse effect on health compared to a matched 31 May 1997 1 5 26 32 control group. 31 May 2001 1 5.5 25.5 32 Germany: Military Bases 31 May 2005 1 4.5 14.5 20 31 May 2010 0123Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for 17 January 2011 0123Defence what obligations he is under regarding the The current complement of MDP provides a community refurbishment of military bases in Germany to be policing role at Colchester Garrison. Security is provided vacated by UK forces. [34225] by the Ministry of Defence Guard Service (MGS), the Nick Harvey: The Germany estate is managed as set Military Provost Guard Service (MPGS) and members out within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) of the Army unit stationed at the Garrison. Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) and its supplementary agreement. Defence: Sales There are no obligations on the Secretary of State to refurbish military bases in Germany upon vacation. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence who purchased the five BAe 125 aircraft sold Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for by his Department in 2007; how that sale was Defence what obligations he is under regarding the organised; and if he will make a statement. [33748] environmental restoration of military bases in Germany to be vacated by UK forces. [34226] Mr Gerald Howarth: The five BAe 125 aircraft were sold to a private company, Everett Engineers. This Nick Harvey: The Germany estate is managed as set followed a competition run on the Ministry of Defence’s out within the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) (MOD) behalf by Witham (Specialist Vehicles) Limited, Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) and its supplementary one of the contractors used to dispose of surplus defence agreement. These agreements do not oblige the Secretary equipment through specialist marketing agreements which of State to undertake environmental restoration of military have been competed in accordance with European Union bases in Germany. procurement regulations. The agreements cover the However, environmental damage caused by UK forces collection, storage, marketing and sale of the equipment, wilfully or by gross negligence can give rise to claims as and any receipts due are returned to the MOD. The five set out within the agreements. Ministry of Defence aircraft had been in service since 1965. policy is to undertake a land quality assessment for sites prior to closure. Departmental Pensions Assets disposed of in Germany over the past 15 years has resulted in no claims being raised regarding Mr Jim Murphy: To ask the Secretary of State for environmental issues. Defence what estimate he has made of the savings to his Department of the proposed change to the indexing Gulf War Syndrome of public sector benefits and pensions in each year to Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for 2020. [34509] Defence what processes his Department has put in place to monitor developments and research into Gulf Mr Gerald Howarth: I refer the right hon. Member to War Syndrome, related health problems and treatment the answer I gave on 17 January 2011, Official Report, by the US Department of Veterans Affairs and its Gulf columns 587-89W. War Veterans Illness Task Force. [34348] Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure Mr Robathan: The UK maintains close relations with the US Government on this issue. The Ministry of Fiona O’Donnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence has a British liaison officer based in Washington Defence if his Department will offer all surviving DC ensuring that the UK has full visibility of US veterans exposed to radiation during the nuclear research into Gulf veterans’ illness issues, and providing weapons tests held by the UK Government in the 1950s a channel for communicating our own work to interested a medical examination to assess any effects on their US parties. health resulting from this exposure. [34081] Iraq-Kuwait Conflict: Anniversaries

Mr Robathan: The Ministry of Defence has recently Andrew Percy: To ask the Secretary of State for placed a contract with an expert independent contractor Defence what events he plans to hold to commemorate for an audit of health needs among UK atmospheric the 20th anniversary of the Gulf War. [34347] nuclear test veterans. This will gather and record the direct experiences and views of nuclear test veterans in Mr Robathan: There are currently no plans for the relation to the health and social care needs using a UK to hold any official events to commemorate the postal survey and focus groups. 20th anniversary of the Gulf war. The Departments of Health and NHS have lead However, an invitation has been received from the responsibility for the health assessment and provision Government of Kuwait to take part in activities this of health care services for ex-service personnel. year to commemorate the 20th anniversary of their Radiobiological measures were in place for the UK liberation during the first Gulf war as well as the atmospheric tests and independent studies by the 50th anniversary of their independence from the UK. National Radiological Protection Board and International The first of such events is the Liberation Day parade to 749W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 750W be held in Kuwait City in late February at which the Peter Luff: As at 14 September 2010, the latest date UK will be represented by units from the Army, Navy for which figures are available, aircraft one had accumulated and Royal Air Force as well as senior veterans from the 23,200 flying hours, aircraft two 22,200 hours and aircraft conflict. three 23,200 flying hours. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 100 hours. Military Aircraft Military Bases

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many RAF aircraft of each type were (a) Defence how many (a) civilian and (b) military staff in service, (b) in the forward fleet and (c) fit for were employed at each (i) RAF, (ii) , (iii) purpose on the latest date for which figures are army and (iv) Royal Marines base in each year since available. [33446] 1997. [30855]

Peter Luff: The information requested is shown in the Mr Robathan: This information is not held centrally following table. The figures shown are the average for or in the format requested. I refer the hon. Member to December 2010 and so have been rounded to the nearest the answer I gave on 6 December 2010, Official Report, aircraft. column 5W, to the right hon. and learned Member for In service aircraft include all bar those which are North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) which provides redundant, declared as surplus or awaiting disposal. some of the information requested on RAF bases. I The forward fleet comprises aircraft which are serviceable also refer the hon. Member to Defence Analytical Services or short-term unserviceable. Fit for purpose aircraft and Advice [TSP10] which provides information on the include only serviceable aircraft available to the front-line geographical locations of regular forces stationed in the commands for operational and training purposes. The UK. This table can be found at the following website: number of aircraft available in each category varies http://www.dasa.mod.uk/applications/newWeb/www/ according to normal fleet management activities including index.php?page=48&thiscontent=100&pubType=0&date= 2010- 11-25&PublishTime=09:30:00 requirements for mandated maintenance and upgrade programmes. Copies of the document have been placed in the Library of the House. Aircraft type In service fleet Forward fleet Fit for purpose I do, however, recognise the benefits of having this information. While the effort required to produce the BAe 146 2 1 1 RAF data to 2007 was considerable, I have nevertheless BAe 125 6 5 4 asked the Department to investigate to what extent a C-17 6 6 5 similar exercise in respect of the other services and Dominie 9 7 5 civilian personnel would be possible. I will write to the 1 Harrier 74 41 41 hon. Member once this work is complete. Hawk T1 129 87 57 Hawk T2 17 8 5 North Korea: Nuclear Weapons Hercules COOK 11 7 5 Hercules CI30J 24 19 13 Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for King Air 4 2 2 Defence what recent assessment he has made of the Nimrod R1 2 1 1 nuclear weapons capability of (a) North Korea and Sentinel 5 4 3 (b) Iran. [34055] Sentry 6 4 3 Tornado F3 15 12 12 Nick Harvey: North Korea has conducted two nuclear Tornado GR4 137 100 97 tests in 2006 and 2009. We currently assess it has TriStar 9 5 2 produced sufficient plutonium for a small number of Tucano 93 52 33 nuclear weapons. We have also noted the recent disclosures Typhoon 70 44 44 in November 2010 of a uranium enrichment capability, VC10 13 11 7 which could also be used to support a nuclear weapon Vigilant 65 65 59 programme. Viking 82 81 76 Iran is not currently assessed to have nuclear weapons. 1 Harrier was withdrawn from service on 15 December 2010. However it continues to pursue uranium enrichment and the construction of a heavy water research reactor, Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for both of which have military potential, in defiance of Defence what assessment his Department made of the UN Security Council resolutions. We share the concerns suitability of the Nimrod MR4A for conversion to the of the International Atomic Energy Agency that Iran role planned for the RC-135W. [33447] has not adequately explained evidence of possible military dimensions to its nuclear programme. Peter Luff: Two Nimrod MRA4-based proposals were We continue to implement all UN Security Council considered as part of the Airseeker investment appraisal. resolutions relating to North Korea and Iran. The RC-135W Rivet Joint option was chosen because it demonstrated best value for money. Service Complaints Commissioner: Finance

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Gordon Banks: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many flight hours there are on each of Defence how much funding his Department allocated the three KC-135 airframes due to be converted to the to the Service Complaints Commissioner in (a) RC-135W. [33448] 2007-08, (b) 2008-09 and (c) 2009-10, [34622] 751W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 752W

Mr Robathan: The role of Service Complaints Justine Greening: The tree was donated, at no cost, by Commissioner came into being on 1 January 2008 and one of the Treasury’s building contractors. The decorations, annual reports are published that contain details of which can be reused in future years, cost £36. expenditure. The following table provides information on the Ministry of Defence actual spend for calendar Crown Estate Commissioners years 2008 and 2009. Expenditure relating to 2010 is currently being compiled. Stewart Hosie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what estimate he has made of increased Allocation (£) revenue payable (a) to the Crown Estate 2008 316,000 Commissioners and (b) from the Crown Estate 2009 412,300 Commissioners to the Treasury as a result of the development and generation of offshore wind energy in each year from 2011 to 2020; and if he will disaggregate such estimates into revenues from projects which are TREASURY expected to gain their Electricity Act Section 36 consent from Scottish Ministers and those which are Banks: Qualifications expected to obtain consent from the Government. [34221] Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his Department has undertaken an Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the assessment in the last 13 years of the standard of Exchequer what the income from the Crown Estate was professional education held by British-regulated in 2009-10; and what estimate has been made of bankers; and if he will consider making professional income from the Estate in (a) 2010-11, (b) 2011-12, certification in financial analysis and risk-taking part (c) 2012-13 and (d) 2013-14. [34196] of the regulatory process. [33876] Mr Hoban: This is a matter for the Financial Services Justine Greening: The Crown Estate is obliged by law Authority (FSA), whose day-to-day operations are to pay its net annual surplus to the Exchequer. In independent of Government. I have asked the FSA to 2009-10 the surplus paid over was £210 million of write to the hon. Member on the issue he raises. which rents from offshore wind activity contributed £2.6 million. The Crown Estate’s medium-term objective Barnett Formula is to generate a return of some £250 million by 2014. Since the Crown Estate operates commercially, it Bill Esterson: To ask the Chancellor of the does not publish annual forecasts of its net surpluses. Exchequer whether he has plans to review the Barnett formula. [33671] Departmental Manpower Danny Alexander: The coalition Government recognises Jonathan Edwards: To ask the Chancellor of the the concerns expressed on the system of devolved funding. Exchequer how many people work in his Department’s However at this present time the priority must be to Devolved Countries unit. [33624] reduce the budget deficit and therefore any decisions to change the current system must await the stabilisation Danny Alexander: The Devolved Countries Unit is of the public finances. made up of seven people: Child Benefit One Range F (Deputy Director) Two Range E (Grade 6/7) Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Chancellor of the Two Range D (SEO/HEO) Exchequer if he will estimate the number of One Range C (EO) households in (a) Wallasey constituency, (b) Wirral borough council area, (c) the North West and (d) the One Range B (AO). UK which will be affected by the proposed withdrawal Departmental Redundancy of child benefit from households which include a higher rate tax payer. [33869] Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Gauke: Information on household income for how many staff in his Department have been made child benefit claimants is not available at parliamentary redundant since May 2010. [34535] constituency or local council level. The number of households affected by the withdrawal Justine Greening: Fewer than five members of staff in of child benefit from families with a higher rate tax HM Treasury have been made redundant since May payer in 2013: 2010. It is the Treasury’s policy for reasons of confidentiality not to release full details relating to numbers of staff (c) in the north-west and Merseyside is estimated to be around 120,000; fewer than five where to do so might lead to the identification of individual cases. (d) in the UK is estimated to be around 1.5 million. Christmas Trees Departmental Temporary Employment

Charlie Elphicke: To ask the Chancellor of the Kate Green: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Exchequer what the cost was of his Department’s how many staff are employed on fixed-term contracts Christmas tree for 2010. [29987] in his Department; and what their job titles are. [34533] 753W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 754W

Justine Greening: The following table gives the numbers Geraint Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the of full-time equivalent civil servants employed on fixed-term Exchequer if he will meet the British Standards contracts as at 30 November 2010, by Treasury pay Institution to discuss the proposed standard (a) range and civil service equivalent job title. BS8453 and (b) BS18477 on Compliance Frameworks for Financial Services Forms. [32341] Full-time equivalent Range Job Title (FTE) Mr Hoban: The Chancellor of the Exchequer, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Mr Osborne), G Director 2 has no plans to meet British Standards Institution to F Deputy Director 1 discuss the two proposed standards. E Grade 7 13.8 D Senior/Higher 20 Income Tax Executive Officer C Executive Officer 3 Amber Rudd: To ask the Chancellor of the B Administrative Officer 8 Exchequer how many people in (a) England, (b) East Student Student 25 Sussex, (c) Hastings and (d) Hastings and Rye Infrastructure n/a 2 constituency he estimates will stop paying income tax Specialist as a result of the increase in personal income tax allowances in April 2011. [33696] Disability Mr Gauke: The number of persons taken out of tax as a result of the £1,000 increase in the personal allowance Joan Ruddock: To ask the Chancellor of the in 2011-12 in England is estimated to be 740,000. Exchequer what assessment his Department has This estimate is based on 2007-08 Survey of Personal undertaken of the effects on people with disabilities of Incomes data projected to 2011-12 in line with the June the outcome of the comprehensive spending review for 2010 Budget assumptions. his Department. [34628] It not possible to produce reliable estimates for counties, Justine Greening: At the spending review, the Treasury towns and parliamentary constituencies due to small made a qualitative assessment of the likely impact of sample sizes at these levels of geography. the spending review on different groups, including disabled Information on the distribution of taxpayer numbers people. These assessments were considered when decisions by local authority and parliamentary constituency in were made. The Treasury published the document, 2007-08 is available on the HMRC website at: “Overview of Impact of the Spending Review 2010 on http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_distribution/menu-by- Equalities”alongside the spending review announcement. year.htm#315 Equality impact assessments, where appropriate, will Chris Skidmore: To ask the Chancellor of the be considered and published by the relevant Departments Exchequer what estimate he has made of the number of as the full details of these policies are finalised. These people in each parliamentary constituency who will will include assessments of the impact of policies on pay less tax as a result of the personal income tax disabled people. allowance being increased to £7,475 in April 2011. The Treasury takes its statutory equality duties very [33714] seriously. I work closely with my colleagues, especially the Home Secretary and Minister for Women and Mr Gauke: In the June 2010 Budget it was estimated Equalities, to ensure that HM Treasury complies with that 23 million basic rate taxpayers will gain an average its statutory obligations. of £170 in 2011-12 as a result of the increase in the personal allowance to £7,475. Excise Duties: Fuels This estimate is based on 2007-08 Survey of Personal Incomes data projected to 2011-12 in line with June Ms Ritchie: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2010 Budget economic assumptions. if he will review his proposal to increase the level of Reliable estimates of numbers gaining by parliamentary duty on fuel in April 2011. [34331] constituency are not available, as projection of the survey data to 2011-12 does not allow for geographical Justine Greening: The Chancellor keeps all taxes under variations in population changes or economic trends. review along Budget timelines. The Chancellor has Latest available survey information on the distribution announced that Budget 2011 will take place on 23 March. of taxpayers by local authority and parliamentary constituency in 2007-08 is available on the HMRC Financial Services: Standards website at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/income_distribution/menu-by- Geraint Davies: To ask the Chancellor of the year.htm#315 Exchequer if he will encourage the Financial Services Members: Correspondence Authority to endorse British Standard (a) BS8453 and (b) BS18477 on Compliance Frameworks for Sir Gerald Kaufman: To ask the Chancellor of the Financial Services Firms as its confirmed industry Exchequer when he plans to respond to the letter from guidance. [32331] the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton, dated 18 November 2010 in regard to Ms E. Wright. [33655] Mr Hoban: This is a matter for the Financial Services Authority whose day-to-day operations are independent Justine Greening: I have replied to the right hon. from Government control and influence. Member. 755W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 756W

Public Expenditure Royal Bank of Scotland: Finance

Fiona Bruce: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr Streeter: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what total public expenditure in England in 2009-10 what recent estimate he has made of the market value was as a proportion of gross domestic product. [32533] of West Register Ltd.; and whether he expects the full market value of West Register to be taken into account Danny Alexander: Total public expenditure in the in the disposal of the publicly-owned stake in the Royal United Kingdom in 2009-10 as a proportion of GDP Bank of Scotland. [33857] was 47.7%. The latest figure available for England is for 2008-09, Mr Hoban: UK Financial Investments Ltd. (UKFI) which was published in Public Expenditure Statistical manages the Government’s investments in Royal Bank Analyses 2010. As a proportion of UK GDP total of Scotland on an arm’s length and commercial basis. identifiable expenditure in England in 2008-09 was 28.6%. UKFI’s remit is to devise and execute a strategy for disposing of the Government’s investments in an orderly Hugh Bayley: To ask the Chancellor of the and active way in line with its overarching objective to Exchequer pursuant to the answer from the Chief create and protect value for the taxpayer as shareholder. Secretary to the Treasury of 21 December 2010, Circumstances under which UKFI are likely to be able Official Report, column 1311, what the monetary value to sell shares are likely to be those in which the economy— of planned expenditure (a) in transport infrastructure, and investor confidence—is recovering and in which (b) in housing, (c) in job creation, (d) in schools, (e) bank share prices are firm. in health services and (f) in total (i) was under the spending plans of the previous administration and (ii) Sovereign Support Grant is following the outcome of the comprehensive spending review in (A) City of York, (B) Yorkshire and Kerry McCarthy: To ask the Chancellor of the the Humber and (C) England in (1) 2010-11, (2) Exchequer when he plans to bring forward legislative 2011-12 and (3) 2012-13. [32794] proposals to establish the sovereign support grant linked to revenue from the Crown Estate. [34192] Danny Alexander: The previous Government did not publish spending plans beyond 2010-11. Regional Justine Greening: Primary legislation is planned for breakdowns of public spending are shown in the Country later this year. and Regional Analysis (CRA) published annually as Taxation: Business part of the Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses (PESA) Command paper. The figures for planned spending by central Government and public corporations for Mr David Davis: To ask the Chancellor of the 2010-11 in England and Yorkshire and Humber were Exchequer for what reasons his Department treats published in PESA 2010. These figures are consistent historic corporate tax matters as confidential. [34408] with pre Budget report 2009 and are reproduced in table 1 as follows. We do not hold data for individual locations. Mr Gauke: HMRC is subject to a strict legislative PESA 2011 will contain regional breakdowns of spending duty of confidentiality by virtue of section 18 of the for 2010-11, based on outturn data for central Government Commissioners for Revenue and Customs Act (CRCA) and public corporations, and plans data for local 2005. HMRC may only disclose taxpayer information government. The CRA exercise has not been carried in strictly limited circumstances and where there is a out on the spending review outcome. legal basis to do so. This statutory duty of confidentiality is not time -limited and therefore “tax matters” which Table 1: 2010-11 planned CG and PC spending are confidential remain so regardless of the passage of £ million time. Yorkshire and Humber 31,691 VAT England 310,668 Source: Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses 2010 (HMT). Grahame M. Morris: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the Public Sector: Borrowing likely effects of the increase in the rate of value added tax on (a) businesses, (b) employment and (c) Mr Tom Clarke: To ask the Chancellor of the economic growth in the (i) North East and (ii) UK. Exchequer (1) what the Government deficit was as a [33694] proportion of gross domestic product on 1 April 2010; [34513] Mr Gauke: The answer to this question falls within the responsibilities of the Office for Budget Responsibility (2) what the Government deficit was as a proportion (OBR), and I have asked the OBR to reply. of gross domestic product on 15 September 2008; [34517] Letter from Robert Chote, dated 13 January 2011: (3) what the level of Government borrowing was on As Chair of the Budget Responsibility Committee of the Office for Budget Responsibility, l have been asked to reply to 1 April 2010. [34518] your recent question. The OBR’s November forecast incorporated the estimated Justine Greening: Outturn figures for the Government impact of policy measures announced at or before the June deficit (Public Sector Net Borrowing) can be found in Budget, including the increase in the standard rate of VAT from the public finances databank on the Treasury website. 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent that took effect from 4 January 2011. 757W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 758W

We have not assessed the impact of the change in VAT on Welfare Tax Credits businesses or levels of employment. However, the OBR applied a range of fiscal multipliers to help inform its judgement on the Yvonne Fovargue: To ask the Chancellor of the impact of VAT on aggregate demand in the economy. These multipliers are set out in Table C8 of the interim OBR’s June Exchequer what the average time taken for processing Budget document. A figure of 0.6, for example, means that a notification changes of circumstances to recipients of measure which has a direct effect of raising revenue by 1 per cent tax credits resident (a) in Makerfield constituency and of GDP is estimated to reduce aggregate demand in the economy (b) nationally was in the latest period for which figures by 0.6 per cent in the short run. are available. [34619] The interim OBR’s June 2010 Budget forecast and the OBR’s November forecast assumed that the increase in the standard rate Mr Gauke: The information requested is not available of VAT from 17.5 per cent to 20 per cent would reduce the level of at constituency level. real GDP in 2011/12 by around 0.3 per cent. HM Revenue and Customs aim to process 98% of Jim Sheridan: To ask the Chancellor of the reported changes in 30 days. The provisional outturn Exchequer what recent assessment he has made of the for 2010-11 up to November 2010 was around 93%. effect on net incomes of value added tax. [33934]

Mr Gauke: Value added tax is an indirect tax. Although BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS prices on certain goods and services will increase as a Advocate on Access to Education result of the rate increase, incomes will be unaffected. Annex A of the Budget 2010 publication shows that Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for in both cash terms and as a proportion of their income, Business, Innovation and Skills how much funding his higher spending households will pay more of the tax Department has allocated for the costs of the Advocate increase than lower spending households. on Access to Education; and if he will make a statement. [34626] VAT: Charities Mr Willetts: The Department for Business, Innovation Mr Burley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Skills and the Department for Education are having whether he has plans to bring forward legislative ongoing discussions with the Advocate on Access to proposals to offer to charities delivering public services Education how he will fulfil his role and the support he the same value added tax status as local authorities and will need. At present no costs have been allocated for the NHS. [33625] this unsalaried post. Mr Gauke: The Chancellor has no current plans to Apprentices do this. The VAT which is refunded to local authorities and the NHS is taken into account as part of those Simon Kirby: To ask the Secretary of State for bodies’ overall funding arrangements. The schemes that Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking are in place are the most efficient means of delivering to provide information on Apprenticeship Week to this part of their funding. potential apprenticeship providers and apprentices. [34057] VAT: Construction Mr Hayes: This is the fourth year Apprenticeship Mark Lancaster: To ask the Chancellor of the Week has been held, and it will take place between Exchequer if he will consider the merits of removing 7 and 11 February. the value added tax liability of self-build projects. The National Apprenticeship Service (NAS) have [33713] been working extensively with partners since planning began in September 2010, and already over 100 events Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs already operates and activities have been agreed, with more being added a refund scheme for do-it-yourself house builders and every day. converters. Under this scheme, a person who builds a I have written to MPs in England inviting them to get new house, or converts a previously non-residential involved. So far, 75 have responded saying they would building into a dwelling, for their own use, can recover like to attend events or visit apprentices in their place of the VAT they have incurred on the purchase of building work or training. materials. The NAS is also working closely with the media to VAT: Scotland raise the profile of Apprenticeships Week to ensure some of the key activities are profiled in advance. Ian Murray: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Apprentices: Birmingham what recent representations he has received from businesses operating in Scotland on the effects of the Mr Godsiff: To ask the Secretary of State for VAT increase. [33183] Business, Innovation and Skills how many apprenticeship starts there were in Birmingham Hall Danny Alexander: None of which I am aware. Decisive Green constituency in each year since 2005. [33605] action taken by the Government in the spending review and June Budget, including the increase in VAT, will put Mr Hayes: The following table shows the number of the public finances and spending on a sustainable footing. apprenticeship starts in Birmingham Hall Green This is already helping to keep long-term interest rates constituency from 2005/06 to 2008/09, the latest year low and will encourage businesses to invest and grow. for which final year data are available. 759W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 760W

Apprenticeship programme starts, 2005/06 to 2008/09 Further information on research supported by the 2005/06 2006/07 2007/08 2008/09 MRC and about the work of the group, including the recommendations for research topics and priorities can Birmingham Hall 260 270 280 370 Green be found at: constituency http://www.mrc.ac.uk/Ourresearch/ResearchInitiatives/ Notes: CFSME/index.htm 1. Figures for Birmingham Hall Green parliamentary constituency are rounded to the nearest 10. Council for Education in the Commonwealth 2. Figures are based upon the home postcode of the learner. Source: Mr Lammy: To ask the Secretary of State for Individualised Learner Record Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to Information on the number of apprenticeship starts respond to the letter of 10 November 2010 from the is published in a quarterly statistical first release (SFR), Council for Education in the Commonwealth. [33021] this includes information by parliamentary constituency. The latest SFR was published on 16 November 2010: Mr Hayes: I regret that we can find no record of a http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/ letter from the Council for Education in the Commonwealth statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, dated 10 November Broadcasting: ICT 2010. If the hon. Member for Tottenham, or the Council John Thurso: To ask the Secretary of State for for Education in the Commonwealth would write again, Business, Innovation and Skills if he will take steps to or provide a copy of the original letter, I will respond as ensure that the chief executive of Ofcom engages with soon as possible. all interested parties that have concerns over the planned introduction of unlicensed white space Green Investment Bank devices; and if he will make a statement. [33767] Mr Bain: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Mr Prisk: Ofcom, the independent regulator, has Innovation and Skills what mechanisms to secure (a) engaged extensively with stakeholders on this issue, and the effective operation of the Green Investment Bank, recently consulted in November 2010. Ofcom also published (b) its independence from the Government and (c) its two consultations in February and November 2009, accountability to Parliament have been established. regarding cognitive devices using interleaved spectrum, [34093] and geolocation for cognitive access respectively.Interested parties have therefore already had a number of opportunities Mr Prisk: Green Investment Bank (GIB) proposals to raise concerns with Ofcom. I anticipate that Ofcom are being evaluated for their effectiveness, fiscal affordability will continue to engage with stakeholders in the future. and transparency. BIS is working closely with other Government Departments on the development of these Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Research proposals, including the Department for Energy and Climate Change, Department of Environment, Food Chris White: To ask the Secretary of State for and Rural Affairs, HM Treasury, Department for Transport, Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Department of Communities and Local Government, Department is taking to support research on myalgic Cabinet Office and Infrastructure UK. encephalomyelitis; and if he will make a statement. We are committed to establishing a GIB that is effective [33971] in mobilising additional private sector investment into green infrastructure projects. It will, therefore, be run Mr Willetts: The Medical Research Council (MRC) on a commercial basis, employing appropriate private is an independent body which receives its grant-in-aid sector skills and expertise and free from ministerial from the Department for Business, Innovation and interference in its day-to-day operations. Skills. The MRC is one of the main agencies through which the Government supports medical and clinical The GIB’s governance arrangements and its legislative research. In keeping with the Haldane principle, requirements, if any, will depend on the nature of its prioritisation of an individual Research Council’s spending final design. The Government are currently conducting within its allocation is not a decision for Ministers. analysis and market testing and plans to publish its conclusions in May 2011. The MRC supports research into all aspects of chronic fatigue syndrome/myalgic encephalomyelitis (CFS/ME), Higher Education: Medicine and welcomes high-quality research applications in this area. The MRC does not normally commission research Michael Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for but supports high-quality investigator led proposals Business, Innovation and Skills what recent assessment submitted in open competition, the selection of projects his Department has made of the effects of the planned for funding is determined through peer review. increase in tuition fees on graduate level entry into An Expert Group on CFS/ME established by the medicine. [33304] MRC has worked with experts in the field of CFS/ME and research leaders in aligned areas to identify and Mr Willetts: The Government have set out initial prioritise research topics where the MRC might target plans for the reform of higher education to ensure that efforts to encourage and support high-quality proposals. we maintain England’s world class university sector The MRC is now preparing to take forward these underpinned by progressive student funding with the recommendations. emphasis on first undergraduate degrees. 761W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 762W

Unlike the vast majority of students doing a second Universities UK, Sutton Trust and others. The right undergraduate degree, students who choose to take a hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark second undergraduate degree in medicine continue to (Simon Hughes), the Government’s Advocate for Access have access to Government support. to Higher Education, has been invited to join the group. Those taking the normal length five or six-year medicine Government investment in the programme will reach degree receive a maintenance loan from this Department £150 million a year by 2014/15. Options could include a for the first four years of the course. From the fifth year, first free year for disadvantaged students who were on the Department of Health (DH) pays the student’s free school meals or a foundation year to attract young tuition charges in full and also provides a means-tested talented people into the professions. Such measures NHS Bursary; the BIS maintenance loan continues to could potentially help around 18,000 students in 2014/15. be available at a reduced rate. The number of students who can benefit from the new Some students take a four-year accelerated graduate-entry programme will depend on the final design which is medicine degree. Individual universities set their own currently being developed with advice from the expert entry requirements for this course, but most entrants panel. are required to hold an honours degree in an appropriate science discipline. Students are eligible for a maintenance Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for loan from BIS for the first year of the course. For the Business, Innovation and Skills what eligibility criteria remaining three years the DH pays the student’s tuition for assistance from the National Scholarship charges in full as well as providing a means-tested NHS Programme will be in place for 2012-13; and if he will Bursary; the reduced maintenance loan from BIS is also make a statement. [34624] available. Lord Browne did not recommend any changes to the Mr Willetts: The National Scholarship Programme funding of postgraduate education but did recommend (NSP) will form part of a coherent package of help that participation in postgraduate study should be targeted on bright potential students from disadvantaged monitored to identify whether changes to the undergraduate backgrounds. All universities that want to charge a funding and finance system have any effect on entry to higher graduate contribution than the £6,000 threshold postgraduate courses: we have committed to do so. will be obliged to participate in the NSP. Higher Education: Radicalism Details of the National Scholarship Programme are still being finalised. Criteria for the NSP are currently being developed through advice from an expert panel, Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for which includes the National Union of Students, the Business, Innovation and Skills how many universities Higher Education Funding Council for England, are currently deemed vulnerable to extremism; and Universities UK, Sutton Trust and others. Simon Hughes, what advice and guidelines he has offered those the Government’s Advocate for Access to Higher universities. [33725] Education, has been invited to join the group. Mr Willetts: All higher education institutions (in We want a wide range of people to have the opportunity England) received guidance from the (then) Department to benefit from the programme. Likely groups to be for Innovation, Universities and Skills in 2008 on how supported include disabled students, part-time students, to manage the risk and they all receive on-going advice mature-aged students, those who have been eligible for and guidance from their designated police officer and the pupil premium at school, or have received free other local partners. school meals or whose family income means that they Currently 39 institutions have been identified as more will be eligible to receive student maintenance grants. at risk of extremist activity on their campuses and these institutions have received additional briefing and targeted Innovation support from central Government. Higher Education: Scholarships Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills whether small and medium-sized enterprises will be required to pay to use Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the (a) services and (b) facilities of his Department’s Business, Innovation and Skills how many students he proposed technology and innovation centres. [33708] estimates the National Scholarship Programme will assist in (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 and (c) 2014-15; and Mr Willetts: The technology and innovation centres if he will make a statement. [34623] will operate on a commercial basis and all businesses, Mr Willetts: The National Scholarship Programme including SMEs, will be required to pay commercial (NSP) will form part of a coherent package of help charge rates levied by the centres to use most of their targeted on bright potential students from disadvantaged services. backgrounds. All universities that want to charge a The provision of core funding will however ensure higher graduate contribution than the £6,000 threshold that SMEs have access to world-leading technology and will be obliged to participate in the NSP. expertise that would not otherwise be within reach. It The design of the National Scholarship Programme will also enable collaboration, the exchange of tacit is by no means finalised. Criteria for the NSP are knowledge and reach into the knowledge base. currently being developed through advice from an expert Furthermore, the Technology Strategy Board will panel, which includes the National Union of Students, work to ensure there are no barriers in place restricting the Higher Education Funding Council for England, SME access to centres. 763W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 764W

Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for will be eligible for loans for their tuition costs provided: Business, Innovation and Skills for what reasons they are personally eligible in terms of residency; they chemical process industries were not included on the do not already hold a qualification which is at an initial list of candidate areas for technology and equivalent or higher level to the qualification for which innovation centres in the prospectus published by the they now intend to study; they are studying on a course Technology Strategy Board. [33712] which is designated for support. These criteria match those for full time studies. The further criterion for Mr Willetts: Chemical process industries were not part-time students is that they should be studying at excluded from the prospectus. The prospectus highlights an intensity rate which is at least one-quarter of an six broad thematic areas. It notes that under the theme equivalent full-time course. Currently 60,000 part-time of high value manufacturing, the Technology Strategy students receive tuition grants. Under our proposals we Board will maintain a broad, cross-sector approach, in estimate 175,000 part-timers may be eligible for loans. line with its strategy, embracing all forms of manufacture No eligible part-time students will have to pay for their using metals and composites, in addition to process tuition costs up front and they will not have to begin manufacture including bio-processing. repaying until they are earning at least £21,000, the same repayment threshold as we propose for full-time Mowden Hall students.

Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) what criteria he Training plans to apply to determine the future of his Department’s operations at Mowden Hall in Nicholas Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Darlington; [33979] Business, Innovation and Skills what steps he is taking (2) what plans he has for the future of his to improve the skills base of the labour force. [33756] Department’s operations at Mowden Hall in Darlington. [33980] Mr Hayes [holding answer 17 November 2010]: The Government’s Skills Strategy, ‘Skills for Sustainable Mr Davey: The Permanent Secretary has commissioned Growth’, published on 16 November 2010, set out a a review of BIS presence on two sites, of which Mowden vision for radical reform of the further education and Hall, Darlington is one, and Runcorn the other. The skills system, based on the coalition principles of fairness, review will consider business, personnel and financial responsibility and freedom. aspects. The strategy will guide the Government’s reform of All staff affected by the review are involved in the adult learning and skills over the remainder of this process along with the Trades Unions, who have been Parliament and point the way towards growth in the consulted throughout. longer term. Its aim is to improve the skills base of Postgraduate Education: Fees and Charges the work force by putting learners, and not the state, in the driving seat. We want to give them the funding, support and information they need to make the right Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for choices for their future. Business, Innovation and Skills what assessment he has made of likely fee levels for postgraduate taught Apprenticeships will sit at the heart of the system. We courses in (a) 2012-13, (b) 2013-14 and (c) 2014-15; will expand the numbers of adult apprenticeships available and if he will make a statement. [34625] by up to 75,000 by 2014-15 and reshape them so that technician level—Level 3—becomes the level to which Mr Willetts: We have no basis on which to make such learners and employers should aspire. an assessment. Fee rates for the vast majority of taught Learners will be able to select training and qualifications postgraduate courses are unregulated and set by each designed and valued by business, and which are offered individual institution. Lord Browne noted that taught by a broad range of autonomous providers competing postgraduate education was a successful part of the with one another. higher education system and found no evidence that Greatest support from the state will be given to changes to funding or student finance were needed to those who need it most. But we will expect learners support student demand or access. We will set out our and employers to share responsibility by priorities for taught postgraduate provision and our contributing towards the costs of intermediate and response to the postgraduate review in the forthcoming higher level training. higher education White Paper. There will be a new role for employers in shaping the Students: Finance skills system. We need employers to get involved, to shape the system and utilise the skills of their work Mr Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for force, so that they get the most from their investment. Business, Innovation and Skills whether the repayment We will support them in implementing proposals they terms for part-time students who take out tuition fee make for raising their game on skills. loans will be the same as those for full-time students. We will increase competition between providers to [33948] drive up standards, and encourage greater diversity of provision. And we will free providers from bureaucratic Mr Willetts [holding answer 17 January 2011]: Under control and centrally determined targets and radically our proposals from academic year 2012/13—and for the simplify funding so they can respond to the needs of first time—all part-time undergraduate students in England business and learners. 765W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 766W

CABINET OFFICE As Director General for the Office for National Statistics, I have been asked to reply to your question asking what recent Unemployment estimate has been made of the number of workless households in (a) Wallasey constituency (b) the Wirral Borough Council area (c) Ms Angela Eagle: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the North West and (d) the UK (33868). Office what his most recent estimate is of the number of workless households in (a) Wallasey constituency, The estimates provided in the following table come from the (b) the Wirral borough council area, (c) the North Annual Population Survey (APS) household datasets. The latest data currently available are for 2009. West and (d) the UK. [33868] Mr Hurd: The information requested falls within the As with any sample survey, estimates from the APS are subject to a margin of uncertainty as different samples give different responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have results. These estimates are such that there is 95 per cent certainty asked the authority to reply. from all possible samples that they will lie within the lower and Letter from Stephen Penneck, dated January 2011: upper bounds.

Table 1: Number of workless households1 in Wallasey, Wirral, the North West and the UK Thousand Percentage January-December 2009 Estimate Lower bound2 Upper bound2 Estimate Lower bound2 Upper bound2

Wallasey constituency 9 7 11 29.1 22.5 35.7 Wirral 26 22 30 25.1 21.7 28.5 North West 495 476 513 21.6 20.8 22.3 UK 3,803 3,749 3,857 18.7 18.4 18.9 1 Households containing at least one person aged 16-64, where all individuals aged 16 or over are not in employment. 2 95% confidence interval which means that from all samples possible there would be 95% certainty that the true estimate would lie within the lower and upper bounds. Source: APS household dataset

EDUCATION Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education what estimate he has made of the monetary Curriculum value of education maintenance allowance granted to Mr Blunkett: To ask the Secretary of State for students in each constituency since the inception of the Education (1) what the scope will be of his scheme. [31035] Department’s review of the national curriculum; when it will commence; what the timetable for the review will Mr Gibb [holding answer 13 January 2011]: This is a be; and if he will make a statement; [32615] matter for the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency (YPLA) (2) who will lead his Department’s review of the who operate the education maintenance allowance for national curriculum. [32616] the Department for Education. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written to the hon. Member for Mr Gibb [holding answer 10 January 2011]: Full Scunthorpe with the information requested and a copy details of our planned review of the national curriculum, of his reply has been placed in the House Libraries. including its scope and timetable and how it will be led and managed, will be announced shortly. Nic Dakin: To ask the Secretary of State for Education how many students (a) in total and (b) in Education Maintenance Allowance year 12 resident in each parliamentary constituency were in receipt of education maintenance allowance in Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for the latest period for which figures are available. [31046] Education how many people are employed in the administration of the education maintenance Mr Gibb [holding answer 13 January 2011]: This is a allowance. [30232] matter for the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education maintenance allowance for Mr Gibb [holding answer 20 December 2010]: This is the Department for Education. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s a matter for the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency (YPLA) chief executive, has written to the hon. Member for who operate the education maintenance allowance for Scunthorpe with the information requested and a copy the Department for Education. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s of his reply has been placed in the House Libraries. chief executive, has written to the hon. Member for Darlington with the information requested and a copy Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for of his reply has been placed in the House Libraries. Education how many and what proportion of young Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 13 December 2010: people received education maintenance allowance in I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question each constituency in the latest period for which figures PQ30232 that asked: are available. [31373] “How many people are employed in the administration of the education maintenance allowance.” Mr Gibb: This is a matter for the Young People’s Administration of the education maintenance allowance is Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education performed by the Learner Support Service, provided under contract maintenance allowance for the Department for Education. to the Young People’s Learning Agency (YPLA) by Capita. The number of people fluctuates during the year, peaking at about 500 Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written but currently 200. They are deployed at two locations, Darlington to the hon. Member for the Vale of Clwyd with the and Birmingham. The YPLA has a small supervisory team in information requested and a copy of his reply has been Sheffield. placed in the House Libraries. 767W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 768W

Education Maintenance Allowance: Darlington As at 30 November 2010, the take-up figure for young people in Darlington who have received EMA during the 2010/11 academic Mrs Chapman: To ask the Secretary of State for year was l,316. Education how many young people resident in EMA take-up data showing the number of young people who Darlington receive education maintenance allowance. have received one or more EMA payments during 2004/05, 2005/06, [30073] 2006/07, 2007/08, 2008/09 and 2009/10 is available on the YPLA website, at the following address: Mr Gibb [holding answer 20 December 2010]: This is http://ema.ypla.gov.uk/resources/research/takeup/ a matter for the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency (YPLA) who operate the education maintenance allowance for Free School Meals the Department for Education. Peter Lauener, the YPLA’s chief executive, has written to the hon. Member for Mr Rob Wilson: To ask the Secretary of State for Darlington with the information requested and a copy Education how many and what proportion of (a) of his reply has been placed in the House Libraries. primary and (b) secondary school pupils in (i) Reading Letter from Peter Lauener, dated 10 December 2010: East constituency and (ii) England were eligible for free I am writing in response to your Parliamentary Question school meals on the latest date for which figures are PQ30073 that asked: available. [28828] “How many young people resident in Darlington receive education maintenance allowance.” Mr Gibb: Information on the number of pupils known EMA take-up is defined as young people who have received to be eligible for and claiming free school meals is one or more EMA payments in the academic year. shown in the following table.

Maintained primary and state-funded secondary1,2 schools: school meal arrangements3,4: in England and Reading East parliamentary constituency, January 2010 Primary schools1 State-funded secondary schools2 No. of pupils known to No. of pupils known to % known to be be eligible for and % known to be eligible be eligible for and eligible for and claiming free school for and claiming free claiming free school claiming free school No. on roll meals school meals No. on roll meals meals

England 3,831,470 709,370 18.5 2,864,350 441,140 15.4 Reading East 6,272 803 12.8 3,626 353 9.7 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies. 3 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 4 Includes pupils who have full time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part time attendance and are aged between 5 and 15. Note: England figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: School Census

Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr Gibb: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I Education how many and what proportion of pupils gave to the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) on entitled to free school meals there were in each 22 November 2010, Official report, column 92W. constituency in each of the last 10 years. [31415] The answer provides information on the number of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school Mr Gibb [holding answer 16 December 2010]: The meals by parliamentary constituency. available information on the number of pupils known to be eligible for and claiming free school meals, from Free School Meals: West Midlands 2005 onwards, has been placed in the Library. Mr Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State To provide information prior to 2005 would incur for Education how many people in (a) Coventry and disproportionate cost. (b) the West Midlands are in receipt of free school meals. [33033] Free School Meals: Kingswood Mr Gibb [holding answer 13 January 2011]: Information Chris Skidmore: To ask the Secretary of State for on free school meal eligibility is shown in the table. Education how many pupils attending schools in The answer includes full-time pupils aged 0 to 15 and Kingswood constituency are eligible for free school part-time pupils aged five to 15 known to be eligible for meals. [31582] and claiming free school meals.

Maintained nursery, primary1, state-funded secondary1,2 and special schools3: school meal arrangements4,5, January 2010 Maintained nursery and primary1 State-funded secondary1,2 Special3 Number of Number of Number of pupils pupils pupils known to % known to known to % known to known to % known to be eligible be eligible be eligible be eligible be eligible be eligible for and for and for and for and for and for and claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming Number on free school free school Number on free school free school Number on free school free school roll4,5 meals4,5 meals roll4,5 meals4,5 meals roll4,5 meals4,5 meals

England 3,838,680 711,410 18.5 2,864,350 441,140 15.4 78,330 27,330 34.9 West Midlands 432,020 94,930 22.0 323,780 57,770 17.8 10,620 4,000 37.7 769W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 770W

Maintained nursery, primary1, state-funded secondary1,2 and special schools3: school meal arrangements4,5, January 2010 Maintained nursery and primary1 State-funded secondary1,2 Special3 Number of Number of Number of pupils pupils pupils known to % known to known to % known to known to % known to be eligible be eligible be eligible be eligible be eligible be eligible for and for and for and for and for and for and claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming claiming Number on free school free school Number on free school free school Number on free school free school roll4,5 meals4,5 meals roll4,5 meals4,5 meals roll4,5 meals4,5 meals

Coventry 25,130 6,110 24.3 17,380 3,510 20.2 730 300 41.8 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 Includes city technology colleges and academies. 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools, excludes general hospital schools. 4 Includes sole and dual (main) registrations. 5 Includes pupils who have full-time attendance and are aged 15 or under, or pupils who have part-time attendance and are aged between five and 15. Note: Pupil numbers have been rounded to the nearest to the nearest 10. Source: School Census

GCSE: Science British Council’s Language Teaching Assistance Scheme for each of the last three years. [30375] Elizabeth Truss: To ask the Secretary of State for Education whether he plans to review the curriculum for science GCSEs. [30940] Mr Gibb [holding answer 13 December 2010]: Figures supplied by the British Council show the numbers of Mr Gibb [holding answer 15 December 2010]: The students from the following three areas who took part criteria and associated specifications for GCSE in the Language Assistants programme in each of the examinations need to reflect the associated national last three academic years as: curriculum provisions in relevant subjects. The Government (a) Newcastle1 have made clear their intention to review the national Number curriculum in all subjects, including science. Further details will be announced shortly. 2008/09 54 2009/10 66 Higher Education: Education Maintenance Allowance 2010/11 76 1 Includes the University of Northumbria at Newcastle, University of Newcastle Ian Austin: To ask the Secretary of State for upon Tyne Education what recent estimate he has made of the (b) North East1 number and proportion of students eligible for the Number education maintenance allowance at each (a) sixth form college, (b) college and (c) other higher 2008/09 133 education institution; and if he will make a statement. 2009/10 135 2010/11 155 [30889] 1 Includes the University of Northumbria at Newcastle, University of Newcastle upon Tyne, University of Sunderland, University of Teesside, Middlesbrough Mr Gibb [holding answer 14 December 2010]: We do and Durham University not make any estimate of the number or proportion of (c) UK students who may be eligible, on the basis of household Number income, for the education maintenance allowance (EMA) at the level of individual schools or colleges. Nationally, 2008/09 2,099 we estimate that 679,000 young people may take-up 2009/10 2,385 EMA in the academic year 2010/11, and around 45% of 2010/11 2,510 16 to 18-year-olds in full time further education in England currently receive EMA. Youngpeople attending Higher Education are not eligible for EMA. Pupils: Demonstrations The EMA scheme will close at the end of the 2010/11 academic year and no new applications will be processed from 1 January 2011. It will be replaced, from September Mike Weatherley: To ask the Secretary of State for 2011, with an enhanced discretionary learner support Education what estimate he has made of the number of fund which will be managed by schools, colleges and children in (a) Brighton and Hove and (b) Hove training providers. This will enable them to target support constituency who were absent from school during the at those young people that they assess as having real recent protest against tuition fees in that city. [30649] need of it to stay in education after 16. We are working with schools, colleges, training organisations and their Mr Gibb: Reasons for absence are collected within representatives to develop the details underpinning the the school census, however only broad categories are new scheme. used and therefore the Department will not know the Languages: Education number of pupils that were absent specifically due to the recent protest against tuition fees. Information on Chi Onwurah: To ask the Secretary of State for pupil absence is collected a term in arrears, therefore Education how many students in (a) Newcastle, (b) data for the autumn term 2010 will not be collected the North East and (c) the UK have participated in the until the spring school census in 2011. 771W Written Answers18 JANUARY 2011 Written Answers 772W

Vocational Education: Hexham The threshold for determining if a PQ request exceeds disproportionate cost is based on the departmental Guy Opperman: To ask the Secretary of State for standard of an individual member of staff incurring a Education what future provision he plans to make in cost of £800 to collate the response. respect of assistance with travel to vocational education in Hexham. [30043] John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for Education pursuant to the answer of 15 November Mr Gibb: Local authorities have a statutory duty to 2010, Official Report, column 590W, on children in make arrangements to ensure that young people in care, what methodology his Department used to further education and training can attend their course. determine that certain parts of the question could only be answered at disproportionate cost; what calculations Written Questions: Government Responses his Department used to make that determination; and what assumptions regarding the (a) number of hours of work and (b) cost per hour required to provide the John Hemming: To ask the Secretary of State for information underlay those calculations. [25698] Education pursuant to the answer of 15 November 2010, Official Report, columns 590-1W, on children in Tim Loughton: The threshold for determining if a PQ care, what methodology his Department used to request exceeds disproportionate cost is based on the determine that to answer the question would incur departmental standard of an individual member of disproportionate cost; and if he will place in the staff incurring a cost of £800 to collate the response. Library a copy of the calculations and accompanying background papers in respect of that answer. [27643] The original PQ (020371) requested information on four separate time-series. Based on our experience of Tim Loughton [holding answer 29 November 2010]: answering similar individual questions, it was estimated The original PQ (20371) requested information on four that it would take around 6.5 days to extract the latest separate time-series. Based on our experience of answering data and quality assure the answer. similar individual questions, it was estimated that it In order to provide some information within the cost would take around 6.5 days to extract the latest data threshold, links were provided to previously published and quality assure the answer. information.

7MC Ministerial Corrections18 JANUARY 2011 Ministerial Corrections 8MC Ministerial Corrections Air Force: Scotland Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how much his Department has spent on Tuesday 18 January 2011 redevelopment work at each Royal Air Force base in Scotland in each of the last 10 years; and what estimate he has made of his Department’s likely expenditure on such work in each of the next five years. [30854] DEFENCE [Official Report, 16 December 2010, Vol. 520, c. 891W.] Letter of correction from Mr Nick Harvey: Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure An error has been identified in the written answer given to the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) Chris Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for on 16 December 2010. Defence what benchmarking assessment his Department has made of the provisions for nuclear The full answer given was as follows: test veteran compensation under the US Radiation Exposure Compensation Act. [29013] Nick Harvey: The expenditure on redevelopment (defined as capital expenditure and minor new works) for the [Official Report, 8 December 2010, Vol. 520, c. 281W.] major RAF stations in the UK since financial year Letter of correction from Mr Andrew Robathan: 2006-07 is shown in the following table: An error has been identified in the written answer Expenditure by station given to the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) on £ million 8 December 2010. 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 The full answer given was as follows: RAF Kinloss 5.3 3.9 1.9 1.8 Mr Robathan: No benchmarking has taken place. RAF Leuchars 4.7 4.3 5.6 9.4 In the United Kingdom evidence was provided in the RAF Lossiemouth 5.6 1.8 4.5 6.1 National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) reports Information prior to the financial year 2005-06 is not of the three follow-up studies on the health of over held centrally and could be provided only at 20,000 nuclear test participants and a matched group of disproportionate cost. Some of the expenditure has military controls. For the United States atomic veterans been split between individual financial years on an no comparable large scale epidemiological US study estimated basis. was carried out. The Ministry of Defence is in the process of completing The Ministry of Defence also provides pensions its annual planning round which will allocate future automatically to nuclear test veterans who have one of programme budgets. This is expected to conclude in a list of 22 cancers presumed to be causally linked to early 2011. service. For other cancers, claims may be accepted on the basis of calculated radiation exposure assessment. The correct answer should have been: In the US, the Radiation Exposure Compensation Act (RECA) will pay a one time lump sum of 75,000 Nick Harvey: The expenditure on redevelopment (defined US dollars for cancers on their own list. as capital expenditure and minor new works) for the major RAF stations in the UK since financial year The correct answer should have been: 2006-07 is shown in the following table: Mr Robathan: No benchmarking has taken place. Expenditure by station In the United Kingdom evidence was provided in the £ million National Radiological Protection Board (NRPB) reports 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 of the three follow-up studies on the health of over RAF Kinloss 5.3 3.9 1.9 1.8 20,000 nuclear test participants and a matched group of RAF Leuchars 4.7 24.5 5.6 9.4 military controls. For the United States atomic veterans RAF Lossiemouth 5.6 1.8 4.5 6.1 no comparable large scale epidemiological US study was carried out. Information prior to the financial year 2005-06 is not The US Department for Veterans Affairs provides held centrally and could be provided only at pensions automatically to nuclear test veterans who disproportionate cost. Some of the expenditure has have one of a list of 22 cancers presumed to be causally been split between individual financial years on an linked to service. For other cancers, claims may be estimated basis. accepted on the basis of calculated radiation exposure The Ministry of Defence is in the process of completing assessment. In the US, the Radiation Exposure its annual planning round which will allocate future Compensation Act (RECA) will pay a one time lump programme budgets. This is expected to conclude in sum of 75,000 US dollars for cancers on their own list. early 2011.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 18 January 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 688 CHURCH COMMISSIONERS—continued Arrest Warrants (Private Prosecutions) ...... 691 Redundant Churches ...... 694 Domestic Violence ...... 693 Women Bishops ...... 698 Human Trafficking ...... 692 Judicial Review (Ministerial Decisions)...... 691 DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 679 National Fraud Authority...... 689 Act of Settlement...... 682 Phone Hacking ...... 689 House of Lords Reform...... 679 Rape Prosecution ...... 688 Parliamentary Constituencies ...... 680 Register of Lobbyists ...... 682 CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 696 Topical Questions ...... 683 Christians in Pakistan ...... 696 ELECTORAL COMMISSION COMMITTEE ...... 697 Christians in Sudan...... 696 Expenditure ...... 697 King James Bible ...... 700 Franchise (Overseas Citizens) ...... 699 Parish Priests ...... 698 Voter Registration...... 695 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 18 January 2011

Col. No. Col. No. CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 30WS PRIME MINISTER ...... 35WS Transfer of Royal Parks Agency...... 30WS Competition and Policy (Media, Broadcasting, Digital and Telecoms Sectors)...... 35WS TRANSPORT ...... 36WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 34WS Commissioners of Irish Lights...... 37WS Alcohol Sales (Coalition Commitment) ...... 34WS Driving Standards Agency (Cardiff) ...... 36WS TREASURY ...... 29WS JUSTICE...... 34WS Double Taxation Convention (United Kingdom Freedom of Information: Commencement of and Mauritius)...... 30WS Certain Provisions...... 34WS ECOFIN (18 January 2011)...... 29WS WRITTEN ANSWERS

Monday 17 January 2011—[Continued.]

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS...... 615W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Banks: Incentives ...... 615W Post Offices ...... 630W Banks: Loans ...... 615W Post Offices: Bank Services ...... 631W Business: Females ...... 616W Post Offices: Closures...... 631W Business: Internet...... 617W Postal Services: Fees and Charges ...... 632W Business: Regulation ...... 617W Regional Growth Fund ...... 632W EU Law...... 618W Research: Overseas Students ...... 632W Export Credit Guarantees: Sudan...... 618W Royal Mail ...... 635W Exports: Higher Education ...... 619W Student Loans Company ...... 636W Graduates ...... 619W Students: Fees and Charges...... 637W Graduates: Disadvantaged...... 619W Technology ...... 637W Graduates: Training ...... 620W Technology Strategy Board...... 637W Green Investment Bank ...... 620W Trade: Manpower...... 639W Growth Review ...... 621W Work Experience...... 639W Herbal Medicine: EU Law ...... 622W Working Hours: EU Law ...... 639W Higher Education: Admissions ...... 622W Higher Education: Finance ...... 626W JUSTICE...... 640W Innovation: Regional Development Agencies...... 627W Community Orders ...... 640W Innovation: Research ...... 627W Crime: Prisons ...... 640W Local Enterprise Partnerships...... 627W Defamation...... 640W Manpower: Department for Culture, Media and Departmental Manpower...... 641W Sport...... 628W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 641W Metals: Imports ...... 629W Departmental Standards...... 642W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 629W Driving Offences ...... 642W New Businesses ...... 630W Family Justice Review Panel...... 642W One NorthEast...... 630W First Offenders: Females ...... 643W Col. No. Col. No. JUSTICE—continued JUSTICE—continued Ford Prison...... 643W Prisons: Alcoholic Drinks ...... 650W Incentives...... 643W Prisons: Closed Circuit Television...... 651W Open Prisons: Sentencing...... 644W Prisons: Discipline ...... 651W Prison Accommodation ...... 644W Prisons: Manpower ...... 652W Prison Officers ...... 644W Prostitution: Newham...... 652W Prison Service: Hewlett-Packard ...... 644W Ranby Prison: Manpower ...... 653W Prisoners ...... 647W Reoffenders...... 653W Prisoners: Alcoholic Drinks ...... 648W Sentencing Green Paper ...... 656W Prisoners: Drugs ...... 648W Sentencing: Young People ...... 656W Prisoners: Gender Recognition ...... 649W Separation: Cohabitation ...... 657W Prisoners: Mental Health ...... 649W Squatting ...... 658W Prisons ...... 650W WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 18 January 2011

Col. No. Col. No. ATTORNEY-GENERAL ...... 676W DEFENCE—continued Human Trafficking ...... 676W Germany: Military Bases ...... 748W National Fraud Authority...... 676W Gulf War Syndrome...... 748W Prosecutions: Crime ...... 676W Iraq-Kuwait Conflict: Anniversaries ...... 748W Specialist Fraud Investigation ...... 676W Military Aircraft ...... 749W Military Bases...... 750W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 758W North Korea: Nuclear Weapons...... 750W Advocate on Access to Education ...... 758W Service Complaints Commissioner: Finance ...... 750W Apprentices...... 758W Apprentices: Birmingham ...... 758W DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER ...... 715W Broadcasting: ICT...... 759W Alternative Vote: Referendums...... 715W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Research ...... 759W Constituencies...... 715W Council for Education in the Commonwealth...... 760W Constituency Boundaries ...... 715W Green Investment Bank ...... 760W House of Lords Reform...... 715W Higher Education: Medicine ...... 760W Higher Education: Radicalism ...... 761W EDUCATION...... 765W Higher Education: Scholarships...... 761W Curriculum ...... 765W Innovation ...... 762W Education Maintenance Allowance...... 765W Mowden Hall ...... 763W Education Maintenance Allowance: Darlington .... 767W Postgraduate Education: Fees and Charges...... 763W Free School Meals...... 768W Students: Finance ...... 763W Free School Meals: Kingswood...... 767W Training ...... 764W Free School Meals: West Midlands ...... 768W GCSE: Science ...... 769W CABINET OFFICE...... 765W Higher Education: Education Maintenance Unemployment ...... 765W Allowance ...... 769W Languages: Education...... 769W CHURCH COMMISSIONERS ...... 711W Pupils: Demonstrations...... 770W Ministers of Religion: Pensions...... 712W Vocational Education: Hexham ...... 771W Youth Groups ...... 711W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 771W

COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 716W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 737W Affordable Housing: Construction...... 716W Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease: Homelessness...... 716W Compensation...... 737W Housing Associations...... 717W EAGA: Contracts ...... 739W Housing: Planning Permission ...... 718W Energy: Prices ...... 739W Tottenham Hotspur Football Club ...... 718W Energy Supply...... 739W Environment Protection: North East ...... 740W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 666W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 744W Arts: Employment...... 666W Natural Gas ...... 741W Broadband ...... 667W Natural Gas: Safety ...... 741W Football ...... 668W Natural Gas: Storage ...... 742W Football Foundation ...... 668W Nuclear Power Stations...... 743W Television: Licensing ...... 668W Renewable Energy...... 743W Renewable Energy: Finance ...... 743W DEFENCE...... 745W UK Smart Grid...... 744W Armed Forces: Housing ...... 745W Wind Power: Standards...... 744W Armed Forces: Postal Services ...... 746W Colchester Garrison...... 746W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Defence: Sales ...... 747W AFFAIRS...... 691W Departmental Pensions ...... 747W Animals: Antibiotics ...... 691W Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure...... 747W Bees: Pesticides...... 691W Col. No. Col. No. ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS— HOME DEPARTMENT—continued continued Darlington ...... 670W Biodiversity...... 692W Deportation: Human Rights ...... 670W Bovine Tuberculosis: Compensation ...... 692W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 670W Carbon...... 693W Immigration Controls ...... 671W Common Agricultural Policy ...... 693W National Policing Improvement Agency: Fees and Common Fisheries Policy ...... 693W Charges...... 672W Drinking Water: Sales ...... 694W Neighbourhood Policing Fund ...... 672W Environmental and Sustainable Development Passports...... 672W Policy ...... 694W Passports: Lost Property...... 672W Fisheries: Quotas ...... 694W Police: Automatic Number Plate Recognition ...... 673W Food: Labelling...... 695W Police: Finance...... 673W National Parks...... 696W Police: Roads...... 673W Poultry: Animal Welfare ...... 696W Sham Marriages...... 673W Public Footpaths...... 696W Theft: Churches ...... 674W Public Sector: Food...... 696W Rescue Dogs: Quarantine...... 697W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 659W Sewers: Private Sector ...... 698W ParliQuiz...... 659W Sudden Oak Disease ...... 698W Sustainable Development Commission ...... 699W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 712W Work Programme...... 699W Developing Countries: Water ...... 712W India: Poverty...... 713W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 700W International Assistance...... 713W Arctic ...... 700W Nigeria: Education...... 713W Arms Control...... 700W Overseas Aid: Climate Change...... 714W British Nationals Abroad: Homicide ...... 701W British Nationals Abroad: Terrorism ...... 701W JUSTICE...... 677W Diplomatic Service: Public Appointments...... 702W Approved Premises: Community Orders ...... 677W India: Entry Clearances ...... 702W Burglary: Sentencing...... 678W India: Foreign Relations...... 702W Citizens Advice Bureau...... 678W Iran: Prisoners ...... 703W Community Orders: Reoffenders ...... 679W Office of UK Permanent Representative to EC...... 703W Courts...... 679W Palestinians: Embassies...... 704W Crime...... 680W Russia: Pipelines ...... 704W Custody: Death...... 680W Sri Lanka: Floods ...... 704W Drug: Offences...... 681W HM Prison Ford ...... 684W HEALTH...... 719W HM Prison Ford: Operating Costs ...... 681W Breast Cancer: Screening...... 719W HM Prison Ford: Sentencing ...... 682W Cancer: Medical Equipment ...... 719W Offenders: Mental illness...... 684W Cataracts: Medical Treatments...... 719W Prisoners ...... 684W Cervical Cancer: Screening ...... 720W Prisoners’ Release...... 686W Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: Research ...... 720W Prisoners’ Release: Rehabilitation ...... 686W Dental Services ...... 721W Prisoners’ Release: Reoffenders...... 686W Dental Services: Standards...... 721W Prisons: Closures...... 687W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 722W Prisons: Finance...... 687W Diabetes: Brighton ...... 723W Prisons: Personnel...... 688W Disability ...... 723W Prisons: Private Sector ...... 689W Drugs: Rehabilitation...... 724W Probation ...... 689W Eggs: Contamination ...... 725W Reparation By Offenders...... 689W General Practitioners ...... 725W Sexual Offences...... 689W Genito-urinary Medicine: Young People...... 725W Wills...... 690W Health Services: East Sussex ...... 726W Young Offender Institutions...... 690W Ipswich Hospital: Manpower ...... 728W Lyme Disease...... 731W PRIME MINISTER ...... 674W Medical Equipment: Contamination...... 731W Liu Xiaobo ...... 674W Mental Health Services ...... 731W Office of UK Permanent Representative to EC...... 674W NHS 111 ...... 732W NHS: Negligence ...... 732W SCOTLAND...... 659W NHS: Pay...... 733W Universal Credit...... 659W NHS: Reorganisation...... 733W Pleural Plaques: Sunderland ...... 734W TRANSPORT ...... 660W Primary Care Trusts: Redundancy ...... 734W Cycling: Accidents ...... 660W Radiotherapy ...... 734W Dartford-Thurrock Crossing...... 660W South London Healthcare NHS Trust: Ancillary Departmental NDPBs...... 660W Staff ...... 735W Departmental Procurement...... 661W Transition Programme ...... 736W Heathrow Airport: Snow and Ice ...... 661W Humber Bridge: CCTV...... 662W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 669W Humber Bridge: Snow and Ice ...... 662W Alcoholic Drinks and Drugs: Crime ...... 669W Humber Bridge: Speed Limits...... 663W Asylum: Children...... 669W Motor Vehicles: Manufacturing Industries...... 665W Crossbows...... 670W Motorways: Speed Limits ...... 663W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Railway Network: Subsidence...... 663W Sovereign Support Grant ...... 756W Sea Rescue ...... 664W Taxation: Business ...... 756W Southeastern: Franchises ...... 664W VAT ...... 756W Train Operating Companies: Weather ...... 665W VAT: Charities ...... 757W VAT: Construction...... 757W TREASURY ...... 751W VAT: Scotland...... 757W Banks: Qualifications...... 751W Welfare Tax Credits...... 758W Barnett Formula ...... 751W Child Benefit...... 751W WALES...... 659W Christmas Trees...... 751W Chinese Trade ...... 659W Crown Estate Commissioners ...... 752W Welsh Assembly Government...... 660W Departmental Manpower...... 752W WOMEN AND EQUALITIES...... 675W Departmental Redundancy ...... 752W Companies: Directors ...... 675W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 752W Women’s National Commission...... 675W Disability ...... 753W Excise Duties: Fuels ...... 753W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 705W Financial Services: Standards...... 753W Children: Maintenance ...... 705W Income Tax ...... 754W Disability ...... 705W Members: Correspondence ...... 754W Housing Benefit ...... 705W Public Expenditure...... 755W Social Fund...... 706W Public Sector: Borrowing ...... 755W Social Security Benefits...... 706W Royal Bank of Scotland: Finance ...... 756W Social Security Benefits: Scotland ...... 708W MINISTERIAL CORRECTIONS

Tuesday 18 January 2011

Col. No. Col. No. DEFENCE...... 7MC DEFENCE—continued Air Force: Scotland...... 8MC Ex-servicemen: Radiation Exposure ...... 7MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 25 January 2011

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 18 January 2011

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 679] [see index inside back page] Deputy Prime Minister Attorney-General Church Commissioners Speaker’s Electoral Commission Committee

New Member [Col. 701]

Succession to the Crown [Col. 704] Motion for leave to bring in Bill—(Keith Vaz)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Fixed-term Parliaments Bill [Col. 707] As amended, considered Read the Third time and passed

Petitions [Col. 812]

West Midlands Police [Col. 813] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Funding Formula [Col. 183WH] Royal Mail Privatisation [Col. 207WH] Trailers (EU Proposals) [Col. 229WH] Arbroath and Forfar Driving Test Centres [Col. 236WH] Young Carers [Col. 245WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 29WS]

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 615W]

Ministerial Corrections [Col. 7MC]