Phil Nusbaum JE: Joe Enright PN

Joe Enright Narrator

Phil Nusbaum Interviewer

March 16, 2010

PN: Phil Nusbaum JE: Joe Enright

PN: This is Phil Nusbaum and Joe Enright is here, and we're talking Bluegrass. This is an oral history project that I'm going to ask you to sign a release for when we're done.

JE: Ok.

PN: The purpose of this is to provide a primary document for Bluegrass in Minnesota. This is something that can be used for research, and placed in libraries around, so we're looking forward to that. Let me ask you about your family background and where you're from.

JE: Ok. I was born in Massachusetts, and I spent most of my boyhood days in Greenville, New Hampshire, on a farm. After my father died, we moved to downtown Greenville and my sister lived there, and her husband. I was born November 13, 1934. My dad, we had a small farm, enough to support us during the war years; I had three brothers that were in the service. After my father died and we moved to town, I made friends with John Paginen, we were both going to high school, and he was real interested in Bluegrass music, and I got interested in Bluegrass music.

PN: This must have been about when?

JE: About 1950, I suppose. I graduated in '53, and this was all through high school.

PN: You recognized the difference between Bluegrass and other kinds at a young age, because they say that Bluegrass was just part of the Country music field at the time.

JE: To us it wasn't. [Laughter]

PN: How did you pick that out?

JE: The banjo was the big thing. On WCOP, in Boston, they used to have an afternoon show with the Lilly Brothers and Don Stover; they broadcast it live from WCOP. We went down there one time, I remember, and stood outside the studio and watched 'em play. That's where a lot of the stuff that Don Stover did was the recordings of Earl Scruggs, and Everett Lilly used to record with Lester Flatt and Earl Scruggs; he played mandolin on a few cuts of stuff that they had. We also had, from this WCOP, there used to be a guy named Nelson Bragg, and he was the Master

of Ceremonies for a Country show on that. Every so often, maybe once a month, they would have a concert at Symphony Hall in Boston, and it would be all Country stars with headliners like Hank Snow, or somebody like that. Then they'd bring in all local talent, and the Lilly Brothers used to play at that, of course they were the only Bluegrass band that ever played on those things. We'd mainly go down there to see them. That was a lot of fun.

PN: So you were a high school kid, in about 1950, were there other kids around doing this?

JE: Nope.

PN: What kind of stuff did you do?

JE: He [John Paginen] had a record player that would play records slow, it was a Zenith, I remember this, because I bought one later, and you could actually go from 78 all the way down to 16. So you'd slow 'em down to try to pick out just exactly what Earl Scruggs was doing on the banjo. Then there was a guy out of WJJD in Chicago that we used to able to pick up at certain times of the night, and he used to play some Bluegrass music for his theme songs, and that's where I heard a lot of instrumentals. I wrote to him one time, and I was a young teenager, and I wrote to him and I never put a self-addressed envelope or anything, and I'll be darned, he did answer me, he wrote back and told me the different tunes that he played for his theme songs, and I eventually got these records.

PN: Were you trying to play, too?

JE: Not then, I didn't really start to play 5-string, my buddy, John - we used to call him Sunny, he had an old K banjo, it wasn't a very good banjo. I was trying to learn guitar at that time, and he was playing the banjo. We were going to be a group someday [laughter], which never happened, but was a lot of fun to dream.

PN: So you had these radio shows to listen to, and you had a guitar, what kind was it?

JE: It was a Harmony guitar, the first one I got. That was the cheap stuff that they had back then. It was an "F" hole, it sounded like crap, but it was still a guitar, and I learned on it. Shortly after high school, I kind of loafed around for a year, couldn't get a job - it was pretty tough back then, and I went into the service - Air Force. That's where I picked up a used guitar, went to basic training at Sampson, New York, which is by Geneva - Finger Lakes Region of New York. Then went to Chanute Air Force Base, Rantoul, Illinois, which is south of Chicago by quite a bit. When I was down there I picked up an old guitar at one of the pawn shops, then you meet people, that's the nice part about being in the service is you meet people from down south. I met this kid [Boyd Faringer] from around North Carolina, and we used to get together and just play guitar, no banjo. He used to listen to some guitar player on the radio. He showed me how to flat- pick a guitar, only not like a flat-picker does today, but to take and pick the note on the down stroke, and then on the back stroke play the chord; you kind of twisted your hand to do this. You

could play tunes and you could actually kind of accompany yourself. That was interesting. I used to Wildwood Flower, over and over.

PN: What other songs did you play?

JE: Under the Double Eagle, and he had some tune I can't even remember the name of it, that he used to play and he taught me. I remember Hank Thompson came out with a song, “Wake Up, Irene.” I don't know if you've ever heard it or not, but he used to have…the guy who was in From Here to Eternity, guitar player, I'm tryin' to think what his name was. He was the forerunner of Curt Atkins, is that right?

PN: Chet Atkins.

JE: Chet Atkins. He used to play, I'm tryin' to think what his name was, but he used to play that same style, only instead of us in' all his, I think he only used two fingers; thumb and first finger, I'm not sure, to play, and he did recordings of a lot of different songs…now where were we? [Laughter]

PN: You were just telling me about the guy you met in the service.

JE: Yeah, Boyd, Boyd was his name, Boyd Faringer, I believe, he was from the south, but once we got through Tech school, which was at Chanute, he went someplace, and I went someplace, and we never did cross paths again. And when you were in the service like that you didn't tend to write to people, for one thing, I don't think I knew his address. Acquaintances in the service they come and go; it's pretty fast and furious until you get to your permanent party base, which was Truax Field in Madison (Wisconsin). Then I met up with a guy, I believe he was from Virginia, his name was Arthur Grover, we used to call him, "Hank;" he played guitar a lot like Hank Williams, and he sang like Hank Williams.

PN: That's why you called him, "Hank," I bet.

JE: Yeah, well I don't know, I wasn't the one who called him, "Hank," to begin with, I mean, that's what he told us to call him. We formed a small Country band, I'm still, in the back of my mind I'm thinkin' about Bluegrass music, but I'm not doing much with it. We formed this little band, and I don't know how we ever ran into this fiddle player, his name was Floyd Hathaway, and he lived in the top apartment of this three story apartment house, he had the top floor, and Marshall Brickman [later won an Academy Award, was a screenwriter with Woody Allen, as well as a writer for the Tonight Show, Candid Camera, The Muppet Show, and many others] was in the apartment on the bottom floor, he and another friend of his. I'm talkin' to him [Floyd] one time about 5-string banjo and this kind a stuff, and he says, "Ya know, there's a guy in our building that plays like that," and my ears perked up, and he says, "Ya know, sometime when you're over at our house we'll practice, and if he's around, we'll go down and talk to him [Marshall Brickman]." And that's how I met Marshall Brickman, who was a friend of Eric

Weissberg's [later played the legendary “Dueling Banjos” in Deliverance, played duet of “Buffalo Gal” with Marshall Brickman in Super Size Me, and played on other soundtracks, including Schoolhouse Rock]. Marshall kind of showed me what to do and how to start: 1, 2, 3, little exercises.

PN: You had tried the banjo previously.

JE: Not really, not really.

PN: To that point it was guitar.

JE: Yeah, it was mostly guitar.

PN: But you were thinking, "banjo?"

JE: Yeah. [laughter] I was always thinking, "banjo." But, anyways, he showed me how to get going over the hump, so to speak. He taught me all these different things on the banjo. He played an interesting banjo. It was called a Judson banjo. It was built a lot like a Mastertone; of course they built a lot of the banjos that way at one time, with tone ring and all that kind of stuff. This was a beautiful banjo, but it was not a Gibson, but it really had nice sound. Have you heard of Banjos and Bluegrass, by Weissberg and Brickman? An LP.

PN: It's a piece? It wasn't originally called that, “Pony Express” is on that…

JE: …and 40 Winks…40 Winks was recorded by Brickman, he used that same banjo. You can tell the difference between Weissberg's banjo and Brickman's; Brickman's has got a mellower tone maybe, not as harsh as the Gibson. I often have said that Weissberg was really a good banjo player, really. But Brickman had the Scruggs style down really, really good, I mean his syncopation was unbelievable.

PN: You could tell the difference between Weissberg's style and Brickman's style? What was Weissberg playing like?

JE: Yeah, oh yeah. He could add notes, really, he sounded like he added notes to a song. He could play faster than hell, and clean, really.

PN: By adding notes do you mean what later was called "melodic banjo?"

JE: No, no. This would be the Scruggs roll. I'm not sure if he did it or not, but it always sounded like he could, or he did, but I don't know if he really did or not; but he showed me a lot of stuff on the banjo. Then he joined our band when he came out and started going to college; this was at University of Wisconsin at Madison.

PN: You're there because of your [military] service, and Brickman is there for the University, and Weissberg was...?

JE: …joined him a year after I had met Brickman, to go to the University.

PN: What was he doing the year before that, out in Madison?

JE: He was in New York then…they were both from New York City.

PN: But, when he came over and played with you he was already in school in Madison- Weissberg?

JE: He had enrolled that fall. He really wasn't cut out for University life, so to speak. The following year he went back to New York and he enrolled in Julliard School of Music. He was a bass player…symphonic bass player.

PN: He was here about five years ago playing the bass in a Bob Dylan show; a group playing Dylan music without Dylan. He was the bass player. He had a banjo with him that wasn't 100% put together. I interviewed him - a very nice man.

JE: Yeah, he is a nice guy. Matter of fact his banjo was almost like my old one, what he did to it. He had done inlay work on the neck, and when he was with us he went back around Christmastime on vacation, and he asked me if I wanted him to pick up some of the inlays for me. They were $10 a sheet. They came in square shape. The wood was cut the shape of the inlay, and then the inlay was put in there. It had many, many inlays in it. All the patterns were different. He had done his neck, and then after that, I did mine, which I didn't do a very good job because I really didn't have the tools to do it. It is really hard to carve into rosewood; it's soft in spots, and then it's hard in spots, the way the grain runs. I didn't have a moto tool or drill press to do a really nice job.

PN: This is '55-'56…how did people meet each other that wanted to play Bluegrass…how'd you get together?

JE: There were a few people that liked it. Fiddle players had a tendency to go towards Bluegrass at that time. I remember a fellow, Wendy Whitford who played fiddle. When I left Madison, I was still playing banjo, but when I left Madison, he joined Hank Grover and they formed another band. I remember going down there and jamming with them. And I remember Paul Prestopino, who used to play with the Chad Mitchell Trio, I think he might have been goin' to school in Madison also, at Wisconsin. He got to know Hank Grover, and I remember going down there and jamming with him. When I was in Madison, there another kid, Myron Sorren…I think I met a lot of people through the music store. I'd go into this music store and this one lady in there knew me real well. She'd tell me of other guys who bought Bluegrass records. She was a nice person that way and kind of hitched me up with some of the different people that came to town.

PN: Were there any events that you'd congregate at, like the Winter Weekends we have now?

JE: No, there was nothing like that. Matter of fact, they didn't start the little concerts, people traveling around playing Bluegrass music I think, until the 1950's. Shortly after we were married, 1956, and I got out of the service, probably the late 50's or early 60's we went on a little trip back east, then we swung down through Virginia and Tennessee, and on the way through Virginia, Reno and Smiley had a morning [radio] show every morning. We went down to this radio station and watched 'em. We were the only people in the audience. Reno was really friendly. Red Smiley wasn't as outgoing. Most of the band was more reserved. But Reno was really quite outgoing; he asked if I wanted to play on the show. He handed me his banjo and asked me how I liked his banjo, and I sat there and played a little bit. A really beautiful banjo, that won the Flying Eagle, the Gibson, this wasn't the one he played later. I understand that was Earl Scruggs' banjo at one time.

PN: They traded.

JE: When we moved to the Twin Cities here and I started to work for Northwest Airlines, I went to A&P school in Janesville, Wisconsin, and all the time I was in Janesville I used to practice the banjo and try to learn new things on it. That's probably where I did most of my practicing, or learned most by myself, listening to these records with that type of record player that I was telling you about, we bought one, and I could slow the records down and I could listen to Earl Scruggs - exactly what he was doing. Then when we moved up here, and I used to go to all the music stores and ask if they had banjos or guitars. Beltson over in St. Paul, he's the one who told me about Tommy Andersen and Jerry Lee - that's how I got to meet Streeter and that group: Harold and Kenny Streeter? They lived in Minneapolis, in the southern part of it. I think I called Tommy Andersen who told me that they were jamming on Saturday at a bar where the owner didn't mind. So I went over there and met these guys, Tommy Andersen, and Jerry Lee, then one of the Streeter boys came in, I believe, Harold was the banjo player, Kenny was the Dobro/guitar player and we went over to their house and kind of sat around and had a little jam. That's how I got to know the people in Minneapolis who were playing Bluegrass music.

PN: What year was that?

JE: 1960ish, '61, '62.

PN: What was A&P School?

JE: Aircraft and Powerplant. So I was trained for being an aircraft and engine mechanic for the airlines, and started to work for Northwest Airlines around 1959, and I met these guys after that. Have you ever heard of Raleigh Williams?

PN: No.

JE: He owned a store, probably a lot like Marv [Menzel, Homestead Pickin' Parlor in Minneapolis] does, only he dealt in guitars, it was called, Northwest Guitar, at first I think it was

called, Raleigh Williams Guitar. He had a small place, I remember there was a barbershop next door, and then he bought, rented space in a bigger building. He had guitars. He had all kinds of guitars: he had electric guitars, acoustic guitars, you name it and they're all hangin' on the wall - it was really quite a music store. He asked me to start teaching banjo lessons there. So I did.

PN: At this point really had you played in many groups?

JE: Not really…not the banjo. I'd played lead guitar in quite a few different groups. As a matter of fact, with Grover, down in Madison, we had a band, and I had a Country Gentleman Guitar, made by Gretchen. Chet Atkins was the one who had developed that with gold-plated parts.

PN: Tommy Andersen and Jerry Lee, were they playing Bluegrass?

JE: Yeah, they were. They used to also get together with Howard Pine, and, matter of fact, that's how I met Howard was I went over to Jerry Lee's one time to have a little jam session and I met Howard. Then they kind a broke off. Howard used to play Country music - he used to play with a lot of different people. He sang. He was a damn good musician, matter of fact. There were two women: Bebe and Betty. They formed a group with Tommy and Jerry Lee. They used to have some little radio show that I used to listen to and they played Bluegrass, one played guitar or bass, and one played mandolin. They did regular Country, too, but they played Bluegrass every so many songs. They were interesting. I never did meet Bebe and Betty, I never did meet them.

PN: You moved around to Minneapolis, or was it St. Paul?

JE: St. Paul, and then from there we went out to Cedar Grove, bought a house. I worked for Northwest (Airlines) in the fall of '59, that's right after I got out of A&P school, and they laid me off the following spring.

PN: Ha! Thanks a lot!

JE: They were like that. They would hire, and then lay off people; it was almost a revolving door, so to speak. And then they moved, they were down in St. Paul, and then they moved over to Minneapolis, to Walls Chamberlain Field, or something, way back when, now it's the Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport - they changed the name. But they moved over. That was one of the reasons too, with all the people that were working for 'em, they had to have money to move over to this new airport, so they were layin' off people. I'm losing my train of thought here. And then I went to work for North Central Airlines that fall, and I was there until Northwest bought us back in '87, and worked right up until 2000, so I had 41 years between the two companies.

PN: We're at about 1960 and the people you met in Bluegrass around here, and I am curious about the development of the music, and also the development of the scene around the music; the social thing that goes along with it.

JE: Oh, ok, well, I can't give you a year, but shortly after I moved up here I met Ellie Winters who was big in the Folk scene. She was a good friend of Pete Seeger. Matter of fact, he'd come out and stay with her and her husband at their apartment when he came out this way. As far as Bluegrass, it is hard for me to say exactly how Bluegrass took off in Minneapolis because Streeter, they moved out, and the only Bluegrass, other than the local people, that I ever ran into was Bill Monroe. He used to come to the Flame Cafe, where they used to have some pretty big names: Carl Smith [died 1.18.2010 at age 82] and some of those guys. I guess I just kind of evolved into this group of people around the Twin Cities that played Folk music - there wasn't that much Bluegrass, really. I never could really get into an established group like Jerry and Tommy. I would have liked to start to play with 'em, but they were formed and I was an outsider. I'm not saying this derogatory; they had an established band and it wasn't part of me. It was mostly evolved into a Folk music-type thing. I met people who were big in that - Jon Pancake and Marcia, he had The Little Sandy Review. I remember them…and Liz and Lyle at the music store - Raleigh Williams, we were talking about banjos. He said he played this Folk style and he showed me, and it was really good. That's where it evolved from there into Bluegrass, I guess. I met Ron Colby, and they had the Middle Spunk Creek Boys, and I met Barry St. Mane. But as far as playing Bluegrass, I never started really playing Bluegrass publically or professionally until 1980.* That was quite a long span there. I would go to different people's houses for a jam session or something, but that was about it.

PN: Was there any place to play outside the house in public for money?

JE: Not many. There was only two in 1980, and that was EPG's over in St. Louis Park, I believe is where they are - a pizza place, and Dulono's [Minneapolis], and that was a pizza place. The guy in Dulono's, I guess, liked Bluegrass music. Your bands would rotate: you'd play EPG's once every month and a half or something, and the same with Dulono's. It was a group of different players: The Middle Spunk Creek Boys one week, maybe us the next. We called our band Barefoot Nellie.

PN: Who else was in it?

JE: Don Paden played the mandolin. He had a friend named Greg who played bass. Mary Buldoc, Mary Henderson now. I met her through Paden. We formed a little Bluegrass band. He said she had a really good voice and wanted to become kind of the voice of Bluegrass up here. She had a beautiful voice…clear and crystal, I guess. So, we started playing around, but we didn't last very long. I think I was a problem. I was too particular…I wanted to make everything perfect and you can't do that, and personalities do clash. I remember the band when I was with Hank Grover, we had another lead singer in the band, and I was always making peace with those

* Joe Enright wanted it stated on this transcript that between 1974 and 1979, he hardly had anything to do with Bluegrass music because he was busy coaching his kids' sports teams. Later, he got re-involved with the jams at the Homestead Pickin' Parlor.

guys. They got along, but I think they were jealous of one another. Bands are terrible! You really got to have a group of guys who really get along. It's a wonder that the Beatles lasted as long as they did - it's hard; you're traveling, you're tired, you're sleeping on the bus, it's tough.

PN: So Barefoot Nellie got out and played gigs? This is about 1980?

JE: '81, '82, I think.

PN: You moved here in '59, and between '59 and '80 was mostly playing for fun in people's houses?

JE: Right. They did have the Minnesota Bluegrass and Old Time Music Association.

PN: Starting, I think, in '75.

JE: I don't think I was one of the early members, but I used to go to their jams on Sunday afternoons and stuff.

PN: It's been mentioned by others that the big venue, other than a few coffee houses and the two pizza places, back then for people who liked to play this music, was to get together at parties…were you part of this?

JE: Yeah, I would say so, but not a regular, but I would go to Liz and Lyle's, and people like that.

PN: We know Liz and Lyle, and Colby at his farm…were there any others who would host?

JE: I can't think of any other offhand. Well, Ellie Winters, but she wasn't really into the Minneapolis group. She had her own circle of people that she used to jam with. For some unknown reason she liked me, and I would go over to her place and meet these other people that I never met at Lyle's or Liz's, that were complete strangers. Matter of fact I remember goin' over there [at Ellie's] one time, meeting some guy who played guitar and sang who really did quite well, but he wasn't part of the big Bluegrass scene, so to speak, in the Cities here. He was just a person that I meant.

PN: What was it like at some of these pickin' events that people would have?

JE: I events I can remember, you'd have a little groups over here, and maybe a little group over here playing, mostly Folk music at that time. I'd kind of play along; it was people to get together with to actually do something. I remember Ben Manning, he was a really good guitar player, and I got together with him many times, I don't know we met, I haven't any idea now, but we got together, maybe through Don Paden, Paden knew a lot of people, and Ben was a helluva good guitar player, rhythm guitar. We used to get together and he didn't live far from here. He lived in Eagan, so he was close.

PN: …worked in the airline industry, too.

JE: Well, he worked in Honeywell, didn't he? Electronics, I believe.

PN: Maybe he did at one time, but then he had, I think, some connection with the airline, then he retired a couple years ago.

JE: Oh, did he? Ben's a nice guy. He got married didn't he?

PN: He's married to Cat Conlin now, they live in Apple Valley. No, they moved from Apple Valley, and now they're in Red Wing. He went to that instrument repair school in Red Wing, and they got a house, and now he builds instruments.

JE: He had a guitar, I think it was a D-45 Martin, and it was really a nice one; it was a big one anyways. It was a new guitar, but it sounded good, like it'd been played a lot. He got together with, who's the flat-picker here in town - the big one?

PN: Adam Granger?

JE: Adam Granger. Adam gave him a few lessons or something, and kind of talked him into buying a different guitar, which I, as a Bluegrass player, I never did care for. They had the D-28, then they had a D-18, and he talked him into buying a D-18. D-18s, to me, are mushy, they don't have the nice twang to 'em that the D-28 does, or the nice "boom"; they're kind of mellow. He got that guitar, and I don't know if I told it was a stupid move or not, I might have. [Laughter] Adam Granger's a good player, [laughter] I just don't like how he picks out guitars, I guess.

PN: Funny. So, there were these parties, different genres of music were represented, and the different genres would be in different parts of the house.

JE: But not much Bluegrass. I think I met Don Paden through one of these parties.

PN: Now, you know, there are a hundred Bluegrass bands. Were you aware of this developing, did it seem that the scene was building to you?

JE: Yeah, it did as far as more players and everything, but, of course, when I first started, you didn't have tablature, it was all learned off a record or whatever, trying to imitate what you heard; this was the same with Brickman and Weissberg. Then later on you get these people who are comin' out with tablature, and anybody could learn. I mean it wasn't a hard, as long as you had the mechanical ability you could learn. I don't know if you fall into this or not, [laughter] if that's how you learned.

PN: I have learned some things from tablature, but I prefer to learn by listening and figuring out. I don't like to copy. I have copied way, way back when I started to play, but I don't anymore, I don't like to.

JE: I don't know, maybe it's me, but it's hard to find a banjo player today, I'm not talkin' about you, I'm talkin' about the younger, that sound different, that have a special little thing. Most of 'em don't; most of 'em play off the tablature, and they all sound the same. You wind 'em up, you could put 'em in a room and they'd all sound the same; you probably couldn't tell one banjo from another, unless the tone was different. [Laughter] That's probably a bad analogy of this, but that's the way I feel.

PN: Along the way did you start noticing that there were more players all the time?

JE: Oh yeah, yeah. All of the sudden it seemed like there were all kinds of people playing banjo, not so much guitar, but banjo. Then the flat-pickers came along and I'm really not that crazy about flat picking; they gotta place, but I don't think it's in Bluegrass music. See, I'm from the old school where the guitar was more of a rhythm instrument, and if you had a flat-picker, he wasn't the main guitar, he was an extra; like the Stanley Brothers had. The fiddle playing in the early stuff was unbelievable, it really is good. Everybody used to say that this kid from St. Peter [Minnesota], played with Stoney Lonesome, Brian Wicklund; everybody was always hot on him, and I just didn't care for his fiddle playing. He's a good player, don't get me wrong, but he's just not what I think of as a Bluegrass player.

PN: He makes his living now as a sort of a fiddle teacher, he's got a fiddle school. I think he's over in Wisconsin. He's very diverse, too. I heard he did some playing for the Bluegrass Association on a little show a couple years ago that I would have to say was just, ah, brilliant. He played some Appalachian music, he played a variety, and it was stuff that he had worked up and it was way up there, professional quality.

JE: That's like this guy in out in Wisconsin, banjo player, I don't know what his name is, but his banjo playing is, I don't know if you've seen or heard this guy, but it's more on the style of classical music than, and he really, and the guy is good, way above me. He played more like Bill Keith, a lot of the melodic style, I guess you can call it, I don't know. But he was really different.

PN: The Bluegrass Association became, I think, a stronger and stronger force relating to Bluegrass. Tom O'Neill, a big part of it is his vision, but he worked with other people, too, like Ron Colby, and I wouldn't be able to say who else.

JE: Colby was at the roots of MBOTMA, I believe, him and, I think, Larry Jones, and Tweety, and the guy you just mentioned, Tom O'Neill. I haven't seen Tom, did he move out of here?

PN: Tom died; in fact, there's an annual fundraiser for education, usually for kids' programs in his name: The Tom O'Neill Education Endowment Fund. He had all kinds of health trouble; he had diabetes, and you know.

JE: As far as MBOTMA and me, I think I might have met somebody at a jam session who said I should join MBOTMA. I don't know when my first year was with MBOTMA, I was there quite a few years, probably was the late 70's [when I joined].

PN: What impact do you think MBOTMA made on the Bluegrass scene?

JE: Probably got a lot more people interested in it; probably more people were exposed to it [Bluegrass] because of it [MBOTMA]. 'Cause a lot of the people that I knew that were in MBOTMA, were not Bluegrass people, not at first, they were more Folky.

PN: Why would a Folknik join MBOTMA? I won't say it's antithetical, but…

JE: It was called, Minnesota Bluegrass and Old Time Music Association, but I think the Old Time Music Association they had more members, probably, than the Bluegrass part of it. I think it was given that name to include people like Ron Colby.

PN: Oh! So you think the Old Time was prominent, more than the Bluegrass?

JE: Right. Oh Yeah!

PN: Oh. Wow.

JE: Yeah it was. At one time it was.

PN: What kind of music was included in this Old Time, was it string band music?

JE: It was more of the commercial Folk music, than Daniel Rowed His Boat Ashore…

PN: …The Highwaymen, The Kinston Trio, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Bob Dylan…ok.

JE: I think it stemmed more from that than it did the Bluegrass side of it, because there weren't that many Bluegrass players. The Middle Spunk Creek Boys was probably one of the earliest groups, perhaps the earliest group. They were made up of different personnel through the years, but I think, originally, it was Colby, Howard Pine might have played bass for them and, I think possibly, Ed, oh what's his name - he's dead now, The Bunch, did you ever hear of, The Bunch?

PN: No.

JE: I think Ed might have been one of the early people in, or he was with Howard. I'm trying to think of the original group of people that were in the Middle Spunk Creek Boys…oh, Al Jesperson.

PN: Yeah, of course - the connecting link.

JE: Yeah, him and Colby. I think that they were probably the nucleus of that band for many years, 'cause they had different personnel that moved in and out. Then Stoney Lonesome came

12 along. I wouldn't say that they were one of the earliest ones, but they came along. But there again, to me, they weren't part of the early Bluegrass scene in Minneapolis, because I think the banjo player was from out of state someplace.

PN: Kevin Barnes.

JE: Yeah.

PN: He's from Kentucky, he and his brother, Brian. Brian is back there now.

JE: "Cause they used to live, or know, J.D. Crowe. That was kind of an imported Bluegrass band, so to speak, 'cause I think they were playin' Bluegrass before they came to town, I'm not sure, but I think they were.

PN: That could be.

PN: How it affected the scene, I get what you say about it being that the Bluegrass Association was actually a location for Folk music, but it did seem that they had their earliest event was kind of a summer festival, then they finally got Taylors Falls. Was this a big difference, as far as experiencing Bluegrass; having these festivals?

JE: For me, only when they brought in some name band. I guess at that time, I wasn't really turned on with the local people. One of the reasons was that I didn't think they played Bluegrass. They might have had a banjo in the band, but to me Bluegrass is a melding of the guitar, the banjo, the mandolin, the fiddle into a cohesive unit that played a certain way. Like I say, I'm an old timer, I'm a traditionalist. I like the old stuff. Like I said before, you can take these newer people and wind 'em up and they do the same thing all the time. That's just the way I feel.

PN: So, as far as the local people, you weren't that interested in seeing them play because their performance standard didn't come up to your standard.

JE: I'd go to those jam sessions and they'd play the same god damn songs over and over and over, every jam there was never anybody new or any new material brought in unless I brought it myself, because never did, they only went so far and that was it.

PN: So it was irritating, to put a word in your mouth?

JE: Yes!

PN: You have your group starting in 1980, for at least a while, Barefoot Nellie, so your participation level in the Bluegrass Association events - am I right in saying that it wasn't that great?

JE: No, I never participated until we did gather this band [Barefoot Nellie], and I think we played for one or two years. We played at one of the festivals, I think, and we played at one of

the deals up in the Sheraton in the wintertime; we were on stage, where we were actually a group that went on stage. That was donated, I think, up there, it was just a spot we filled.

PN: Did you have a group after Barefoot Nellie?

JE: Nope, never had another group.

PN: How come, just didn't want to?

JE: Like I said, I think I just don't think the players were there to my standards, and not only that, but I was holding down a full time job. I remember one time, many years ago, one of the guys who worked at Northwest Guitar was heavy into the Folk music part of it. He says, "Joe, why don't you tour with us?" Quit my job and tour with a Folk band?! I kind a thought about it, and I was flattered, so to speak, but, ya know, what pays the bills? You gotta be realistic about this; you can't just go off and leave a good job just because you want to run around the country! So I didn't go, I didn't do anything like that; it never really lit a fire under me. I don't know if it's true or not, but I've always heard this, that it's awfully hard for a northern band, or a northern singer to break into the Nashville scene, very tough. "You're from the north - stay up there!" [Laughter] The only group, I think, and I don't know if they were that popular down south, was the New England Bluegrass Boys.

PN: Joe Val.

JE: Yep. Now I don't know if they were that popular down south or not, but they certainly had a damn good band, really good. The personnel that Joe Val had with him when they came out here, with Haney the banjo player, and I'm not sure the bass player, I don't know the personnel that was there, I didn't know those people. It was a very tight-knit group, they performed well. They really had everything down! And Joe played Bluegrass the way I thought it should be played.

PN: When was about which year, now?

JE: It probably would have been back, oh, God, probably in the' 80s.

PN: Joe had a group that sounded like a first generation group.

JE: He played up in the Boston area for many years.

PN: The festival up there is now named for him; they have The Joe Val Festival.

JE: Ok. I was kind of introduced to Joe Val, I really didn't know that much about him, and I'd never heard him that much, but Paden was the one who said I ought to hear this guy; he had quite a few records of Joe Val, and that's where I was introduced. When he came out here that time, cripes, I was in seventh heaven, watchin' him and I jammed with him; I had a good time. 'Course he jammed over at the store, Marv's [Marv and Dawn Menzel's Homestead Pickin' Parlor].

PN: Yeah, I was going to ask you about some of the different venues that existed for jamming. I've seen over there I don't know how many times, I moved to the area in '86, so I know it was past there.

JE: A friend, I'm trying to remember his name, he's heavy into Folk music, I'm sorry, I can't remember his name, but he came out here [to my house], I kind of advertised in the MBOTMA magazine that I wanted to get together with a lead singer, and this guy came out to the house here, and we sat downstairs - there used to be nobody down there and there was a nice little room down there where you could play. We sat down there and he sang and I played, and I guess he left the house thinkin', "Holy shit, this guy's too good for me!" [Laughter] Now, I'm not tryin' to pat myself on the back, but he said he went back and saw Marv Menzel and said, "I went out to this guy's house, and he's a helluva good banjo player!" Marv didn't know me from Adam, nobody knew of me, I guess, 'cause I wasn't goin' around to all the, but then I heard about the jamming at the store, so I took my banjo up there one Saturday, kind of sat in a comer, got the feel of the place. That was a lot of fun up there, that jamming, 'cause there were a lot of different people that came in; good players!

I remember one gal that came in, I don't know where she was from, she was visiting up here, a fiddle player. Holy cripes, and she played, she knew how to play! She played Bluegrass like I always wanted to play Bluegrass. But once in a while, if somebody would walk in that was really, really, and bring some new material. You played with a lot of people who were flunkies, too, there was a guy that used to come up there with a tenor banjo, or a plectrum banjo, I mean I don't snub my nose at him, it was good practice for him; it was good practice for everybody. But, it just didn't kind of fit into that; I don't know if you're familiar with plectrum banjos or…tenor banjos can be kind of loud, louder than a 5-string.

PN: Oh, I didn't know there was anything louder than a 5-string, except maybe a guitar. But I don't know if this is generally known, but when you're playing a 5-string, it doesn't seem that loud to you because it projects out; other people tell you that it's loud and you think, "What're you talkin' about? I can't hear it, I hear you."

JE: [Laughter] Yeah, that's true, it is a loud instrument. I try to play softly, but I used to try to take it lightly. I had light-gauge strings, I never had the heavy gauge, and yet the banjo was loud, louder than hell; people told me that. But that last banjo I had was a piece of work; maybe you never saw it.

PN: I remember the one, it was a Gibson, that seemed to have some kind of a metal finger rest, a bar that went across it to rest your finger of your picking hand. That's the only one I've seen like that.

JE: The last banjo I had that I had actually custom made for me was an old RB100. Dick Kenfield, I don't know if you knew of him.

PN: Oh, yeah, funny, I have a Kenfield banjo myself, and I didn't know, until right now, I didn't know why it should be called "Kenfield," and now I know.

JE: He did make some banjos, and he repaired a lot of banjos; not for the locals as much as for the out-of-towners. I remember going over to his house and seeing some really fabulous banjos. He took my old RB100, and he cut the groove for the tone ring on the wood flange, put it on a lathe, cut it down, and we fitted a Stewart-MacDonald tone ring on it, went out and bought the Semenov top tension kit, he took the rest of the banjo and he tapped it so we could put the top tension kit on. I had an old Gibson tail piece - Presto, with the strings underneath with Bella Voce inlays on ebony fingerboard, and five Scruggs' tuners…

PN: …even on the 5th string?

JE: No, nothing on the 5th string.

PN: Well, five Scruggs tuners, though, there's only four strings then.

JE: I got all these ideas one time when I watched Bill Keith out here, and he did “Auld Lang Syne”, and it was really a nice piece for the banjo…

PN: Yes it is. I've played that…

JE: I never learned that. He used all the tuners. He had the Bill Keith tuners on all four strings, so he could play…it's hard to explain. You could bring it up two frets?

PN: You could bring it up from a D to an E.

JE: Yeah. Then you could take the second string - that's where you got the two tuners. When Scruggs played Flint Hill Special, he tuned the string down…

PN: From B to A#, if he was going from a G chord to an A chord, that would be just fine.

JE: Ok. Then on Randy Lynn Rag instead of going down with the second string, he went up with the second string, and then the third string just down, and also on the fourth string down, and you could turn it to a C, in other words, go from a G down to a C. Remember Bill Keith had a contest of people that could play tunes using the Scruggs tuners. And this guy wrote some tunes and he also did some tunes, and as a matter of fact, I think Bill Keith kind of stole some of these tunes from this guy. They put out a book of tablature and a tape to go along with it; and some of these tunes are really neat. That's why on the second string you have two Scruggs pegs: one go up and one go down. I could tune it to a C, with the pegs. You can go down to a D chord, G chord, and I think I could do it with a C chord. I used Scruggs' tuners. I didn't use the old Keiths tuners. Scruggs tuners are much more accurate; they don't keep going out of tune. Remember Barry St. Mane had 'em on his banjo, and the damn things seemed like they were always going out; they just weren't really perfect.

PN: When you hear the bands from the area play today, what are your thoughts?

JE: I haven't heard any of 'em for a long time, since about 2000. I listen to some of these guys, Gail…who's the guitar player? Doc or Daddy…

PN: Bob Bovee and Gail Heil?

JE: Yeah, I think that's who I'm talkin' about, Bob Bovee. I know them, I jammed with him, but he wasn't very pleased with the banjo, he doesn't like the banjo, "Stop playing. You're playing too fast.” I didn't think I was playing too fast, I thought I always had pretty much taste for Country music 'cause I played a lot of it; it wasn't like it was a stranger to me, and that's what he plays - the Old Timey, Jimmy Rogers, that type of music. Anything else?

PN: I'm very interested in the party scene, because I think in the history of Bluegrass in this town, that's a big part of it. So if there's anything you'd like to add about that, if not, I can say we're done.

In a letter to Phil Nusbaum dated 6-22-2010, Joe Enright stated: "This interview in only my opinion and how I perceived events and people over twenty years ago or longer."