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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF TYNWALD COURT

DOUGLAS, Tuesday, 15th October, 1985 at 10.30 a.m.

Present: The Lieutenant-Governor (His Excellency Major General Laurence New, C.B.E.). In the Council: The President of the Council (the Hon. J.C. Nivison, C.B.E.), the Lord Bishop (the Rt. Rev. Arthur Henry Attwell), the Attorney- General (Mr. T.W. Cain), Messrs. R.J.G. Anderson, A.A. Callin, Mrs. B.Q. Hanson, Mr. E.G. Lowey, Dr. E.J. Mann, Messrs. J.N. Radcliffe and E.M. Ward, B.E.M., with Mr. T.A. Bawden, Clerk of the Council.

In the Keys: The Speaker (the Hon. Sir. Charles Kerruish, O.B.E.), Messrs. W.K. Quirk, W.A. Gilbey, J.D. Q. Cannan, Mrs. C.M. Christian, Messrs. S.L. Morrey, J.H. Kneale, D.G. Maddrell, R.A. Payne, P. Karran, M.R. Walker, N.Q. Cringle, C.H. Faragher, Dr. D.L. Moore, Messrs. C.A. Cain, A.R. Bell, B. May, G.V.H. Kneale, E.C. Irving, C.B.E., A.C. Duggan, D.C. Cretney, D.F.K. Delaney, D. Martin, J.A. Brown, u'ith Mr. R.B.M. Quayle, Clerk of Tynwald.

The Lord Bishop took the prayers.

WELCOME TO THE NEW GOVERNOR

The Speaker: Your Excellency, this morning I rise to extend to you a sincere welcome as the new presiding officer of Tynwald. To the uninformed a welcome from one who later in the same sitting will, with equal sincerity, seek to change the pattern of appointment may appear strange, but the apparent contradiction may be related to the inherent democratic pattern of our operation as determined by Standing Orders, which may be defined as a series of instructions remaining in force until countermanded or repealed and it is these Standing Orders which require Your Excellency to preside over this ancient Court.

When welcoming your distinguished predecessor I referred to William Williams’ statement to Parliament in 1680 when on appointment he said that he had been elevated to a high and slippery place. Anyone walking the tightrope of authority, bridging the Crown and Government of a sovereign territory on the one hand and the Government and people of this Island on the other, may be said to do that and you will most certainly do so, but you may rest assured that while at all times jealous of our ancient privileges and traditions and desirous of advancing our relationship

Welcome to the New Governor T2 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 to meet the needs of international conventions, you will nevertheless have the full co-operation of all members as we strive to carry out our mandate from the people of this Island.

The President of the Council: Your Excellency, may I on behalf of the Legislative Council endorse what Mr. Speaker has said in his words of welcome to you and offer our own welcome to you first of all as Her Majesty’s representative, secondly, we would say, as the president of this Court, which is the workshop of the Island’s Government. I would say that many of us have had an opportunity of meeting you and so have many people in the Isle of Man and we have been engaged in our natural instincts in weighing you up, sir! (Laughter). And I would say that the report so far is one hundred per cent, with whom we have met and we do hope that . . . Incidentally, I have no doubt that you too have been weighing us up and I hope you too will find us just as favourable. I would say too — and Mr. Speaker made reference to certain parts on the Agenda and I might well be expected to second the proposal by the hon. Mr. Speaker in that direction, but have no fear about the question of whether you are skating on thin ice; you are not alone. Many of us too are skating around on thin ice and I would say to my friends in the House of Keys that in just a year’s time (Laughter) they will be on the thin ice and so are we. We have been on the thin ice for some time here in the Council. We have managed to survive and many of us, I hope, will survive a little longer in order, if for no other reason, that we may stand by you in the many duties that you will perform. We do welcome you and Mrs. New and your family; we know that you will mingle well with the people in the Isle of Man and we thank you for the words that you have already spoken to us. Thank you very much, Your Excellency, and may God go with you.

The Governor: Thank you, hon. Mr. Speaker. Thank you, hon. President of the Council. Hon. members, I do thank you for your assurances and encourage­ ment as I preside here for the first time. The swearing in which I remember so vividly was, unbelievably, just one month ago this morning and if you regard that swearing in as a wedding to the Isle of man, then we have had, I can assure hon. members, a fabulous honeymoon. The month that has gone by has been wonderful, from sheep-dipping to the Gaiety Theatre to marvellous occasions, and really it has been a fabulous honeymoon but, as in all well-regulated marriages, I realise that the honeymoon cannot last for ever and I believe that probably we must now get down to the nitty-gritty, as in all marriages, of trying to live together and I see that living together as beginning now.

ANNOUNCEMENT OF ROYAL ASSENT

The Governor: Hon. members, I have to announce that Royal Assent has been given to the following Acts: Income Tax (Amendment) Act 1985; Licensing and Registration of Vehicles Act 1985; Road Traffic Regulation Act 1985, all dated 29th July; Auctions Act 1985. dated 12th August; Road Traffic Act 1985; Local Govern­ ment Act 1985; Treasury Act 1985, all dated 23rd September 1985.

Welcome to the New Governor Announcement of Royal Assent TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T3

PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COURT

The Governor: I call on the Clerk to lay papers.

The Clerk: I lay before the Court:

Customs and Excise (Application) Act 1975 — Export of Goods (Control) Order 1985 (Application) Order 1985; Customs and Excise Acts (Application) (Amendment) (N o.2) Order 1985; Customs Duties (Application) (N o.3) Order 1985.

Customs and Excise (Isle of Man) Act 1958 — Excise Duties (Amendment) Order 1985.

Value Added Tax — Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985.

Manx Decimal Coins Act 1970 — Manx Decimal Coins (Queen Mother Crowns) Order 1985.

Audit Act 1886 — Finance Board Memorandum. (Public Notice No. 118/85).

Revocation of Loan Sanctions — (Government Circular No. 194/85).

Registration of Pleasure Craft Act 1974 — Registration of Pleasure Craft (Fees) Regulations 1985.

House Purchase — House Purchase (Amendment) Scheme 1985.

Police Acts 1962 to 1982 — Isle of Man Police (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 1985.

Superannuation Act 1984 — Manx Electricity Authority Superannuation Scheme 1986.

Social Security — Social Security Legislation (Application) (N o.5) Order 1985. Social Security Legislation (Application) (N o.6) Order 1985. Social Security Legislation (Application) (No.7) Order 1985. Social Security Legislation (Application) (N o.8) Order 1985. Social Security Legislation (Application) (N o.9) Order 1985.

Industry Board Act 1981 — Industry Board Act (Amendment) Order 1985.

Papers Laid Before the Court T4 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Adoption Act 1984 — Adoption Act 1984 (Appointed Day) (No.l) Order 1985. Adoption (Overseas Adoptions) Order 1985. Adoption Rules 1985. Adoption (Birth Records) Regulations 1985. Adoption (Forms of Entry) Regulations 1985. Adoption Societies Order 1985. Adoption Societies Regulations 1985.

Maintenance Orders (Reciprocal Enforcement) Act 1978 — Rules of High Court of Justice (Reciprocal Enforcement) 1985.

Local Government (Special Drainage Districts) Act 1952 — Booilushag Drainage District Order 1985.

Local Government (No.4) Act 1938 — Southern Local Authorities Swimming Pool (Amendment) Order 1985.

Jury Act 1980 — Jurors Order 1985.

Highway Act 1927 — Quilliam’s Court (Douglas) (Closure) Order 1985.

Tenancy of Business Premises Acts 1971 and 1975 — Tenancy of Business Premises Order 1985.

Boards’ Responsibilities — Report of the Select Committee of Tynwald on the Responsibilities of Boards of Tynwald etc.

Rating — Final Report of the Select Committee on Rating of Domestic Property.

Standing Orders — Report of the Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald.

Misuse of Drugs — Report of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs.

Value Added Tax — Value Added Tax (Handicapped Persons) Order 1985. Value Added Tax (Terminal Markets) (Amendment) Order 1985.

Employment — Second Interim Report of the Employment Committee of Executive Council.

Papers Laid Before the Court TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T5

Social Security — Pensioners’ Lump Sum Payments Order 1985.

Immigration — Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules (Commonwealth Citizens) — Government Circular No. 163/85.

Telecommunications Act 1984 — Telecommunications Act 1984 (Appointed Day) (N o.2) Order 1985.

European Communities — Applicable European Communities Secondary Legislation for May, June and July, 1985

Annual Reports — Report of the Isle of Man Electricity Board for the year ended 31st March 1984. Report of the Isle of Man Health Services Advisory Council for the year ended 31st March 1984. Report of the Isle of Man Health Services Advisory Council for the year ended 31st March 1985. Report of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Committee for the year ended 31st March 1985.

Annual Report and Accounts — Annual Report and Accounts of the Manx Electricity Authority for the year ended 31st March 1985.

Appointed Day Orders — Direction by Governor in Council.

Accounts — Accounts for the year ended 31st March 1984, unless stated (together with the Report of the Public Auditors) of —

Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries Isle of Man Airports Board Isle of Man Assessment Board Isle of Man Board of Education Isle of Man Electricity Board Isle of Man Forestry, Mines and Lands Board Isle of Man Harbour Board Isle of Man Health Services Board, Hospital Administration Committee and Trust Accounts Isle of man Highway and Transport Board Isle of Man Board of Social Security Isle of Man Tourist Board Isle of Man Water and Gas Authority (Isle of Man Gas Undertaking to

Papers Laid Before the Court T6 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

31st October 1983) Manx Electric Railway and Isle of Man Steam Railway (Year ended 31st March 1983)

Report of the Public Auditors on Accounts of —

Borough of Douglas Castletown Town Commissioners Peel Town Commisioners Ramsey Town Commissioners Village Districts of Laxey, Michael, Onchan, Port Erin and Port St. Mary Parish Districts Peel and Western District Housing Committee Cooil Roi Housing Authority Marashen Crescent Housing Committee Northern Parishes Refuse Collection Board Northern Local Authorities Swimming Pool Board Castletown and Malew Elderly Persons Housing Committee Ramsey and District Housing Committee Southern Local Authorities Swimming Pool (Year ended 31st March, 1983 and 1984).

Local Government Board’s Approval to Petitions —

Petition of Laxey Village Commissioners for authority to borrow £10,500, repayable within 10 years, to effect repairs to the Commissioners’ Office, New Road, Laxey.

Petition of Douglas Corporation for authority to borrow a sum not exceeding £33,100 to defray the cost of laying out, equipping and fencing a children’s playground on Noble’s Plot, Douglas.

Petition of Castletown Town Commissioners for approval to the purchase of a store building and land situate at the rear of the Union Hotel, Castletown, from H. Cubbon & Sons Limited for the sum of £20,000.

RADIO INTERVIEW WITH MR. LEVENTHORPE — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN

The Governor: Hon. members, we now turn to the Question Paper. As hon. members will be aware there are no less than 28 questions for oral answer and I calculate that we have four minutes and 39 seconds for each question. If we do not observe something of that sort of time scale the consequence will simply be that many of the questions for oral answer will not be met by 1 o’clock when we simply must, by Standing Orders, stop the question period. Therefore I would ask

Papers Laid Before the Court Radio Interview with Mr. Leventhorpe — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T7

hon. members to deny themselves wherever possible so that we may hear the answers set. Question 1. I call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. Cannan.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, 1 beg to ask the Chairman of Executive Council:

WHEREAS it was reported in the Isle of Man Courier dated 23rd August 1985 that Executive Council at its meeting on Thursday, 15th August, discussed whether a radio interview with Mr. R. C. Leventhorpe should be permitted to be broadcast on Sunday, 18th August. Can you confirm this?

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, Executive Council issued a statement on this matter on 29th August. I have supplied the hon. member with a copy of it and I trust that he has read it.

Mr. Cannan: A supplementary, Your Excellency. I regrettably find that I am not satisfied with the answer given by the Chief Minister and would put three supple- mentaries to him. It was stated in the Courier on the date in question that Manx Radio chairman, Mr. Alan Wilcocks, agreed the question of the programme had been drawn to his attention and that he had gone to the station to listen to the tape of the programme, but at this stage Mr. Wilcocks did not wish to comment further. So the question I am putting, Chief Minister, is, who drew the matter to Mr. Wilcocks’ attention — surely it must have been somebody at a very high level in Government — and on whose instructions? Secondly, I am asking, if the matter was not raised formally at Executive Council, was it raised informally? Thirdly, what prompted the statement to be issued by the Government Secretary on behalf of Executive Council on 29th August regarding a code of practice and did Executive Council consider by implication that existing practices at Manx Radio had been deficient? And while you, sir, Chief Minister, broadcast on Crystal Ball on 29th September expressing the policy of the Government, what provision was made for an alternative view to be expressed? Finally, am I to assume that it is in order for the Government official line to be freely broadcast while alternative policy is for, if not censorship, at least examination? I would draw the attention to you of the refusal of Manx Radio to take a paid advertisement from the organisation Future of Man to give notice of the date and time of the meeting, and further that I understand that Manx Radio has been prohibited the use of the Members Interview Room and so denying to many members the opportunity to give recordings of the matters under discussion today.

The Governor: I hesitate to intervene so early, hon. members, but I do feel that some of those questions, Mr. Cannan, go beyond the original question asked. (Members: Hear, hear.) However, if you wish to answer them now, Dr. Mann, you may, otherwise you need not.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, you can see our problems (Laughter) early in the sitting! I do not wish to make any further comment than that in the first paragraph of the statement, which I think is clear even to those who need glasses. I will try ,and deal with supplementaries which appeared in a major speech. Firstly, I have

Radio Interview with Mr. Leventhorpe — Question by Mr. Cannan T8 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 no knowledge of any remarks made by Mr. Wilcocks. I have not met Mr. Wilcocks and I have no knowledge of any statements that he may or may not have made. Secondly, as to whether the item was either raised officially, formally or informally, 1 can assure the hon. member that the matter of his possible friend referred to in the Question was not either raised formally or informally. Thirdly, the matter of the balance of opinions expressed was raised informally. That is something that is free for any member of Executive Council to do at any time, but I must draw members’ attention to the fact that the proceedings of Executive Council are also confidential.

Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. To clarify the matter for hon. members, has there been any change politically in the policy of the media of the Isle of Man and will the chairman confirm at this time that alteration has not taken place and that we will carry out nothing other than our responsibilities under the Broadcasting Act?

Dr. Mann: I can assure the hon. member, and further I can state that it is neither the wish nor the authority of Executive Council in any way to interfere with any programme on Manx Radio.

SEA FERRY TARIFF INCREASES — ESTABLISHMENT OF CONTROLLING BODY — QUESTION BY MR. MADDRELL

The Governor: Question 2 .1 call upon the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Maddrell.

Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of Executive Council:

WHEREAS price increases on certain services which are provided by an organisation having a monopoly in that field are subject to independent review before being implemented (i.e. airfare increases by the Civil Aviation Authority and bus and coach fares by the Road Traffic Commissioners).

AND WHEREAS there is now only one company offering sea ferry services for both passengers and freight and there exists no control over the prices charged for such services.

Will Executive Council consider the establishment of a body analogous to the Road Traffic Commissioners to consider and approve all applications for increases in tariff for sea ferry services operating to and from the Isle of Man? ' Dr. Mann: At the January 1985 sitting of Tynwald, the Steering Committee of Tynwald on Transport and the Shipping Liaison Committee of Executive Council under the chairmanship of Executive Council were appointed to investigate and report on the cost of travel to and from the Isle of Man including the cost of transport of goods and to make recommendations as to how such costs may be reduced. Whether a body analogous to the Road Traffic Commissioners should be established

Radio Interview with Mr. Leventhorpe — Question by Mr. Cannan Sea Ferry Tariff Increases — Establishment of Controlling Body — Question by Mr. Maddrell TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T9

is a matter which could be considered in this context. 1 think it also true to say that the Keys committee at the time of the merger also considered the consumer protection that would be required if a monopoly resulted from any such moves.

Mr. Maddrell: A suppplementary, please Your Excellency. Do I take it from the Chairman of Executive Council’s answer — and 1 am not quite clear on what he said — that he is going to accept this policy or has he just left it that it will happen?

Dr. Mann: This is being considered currently. I think it is worth noting that wherever there has been a de facto monopoly in any nationalised industry in the United Kingdom, for instance, there has always been a consumer protection body built in in due course. We are still considering this matter. It has been raised with the company and certainly is an active thing that must be considered in the future.

Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, I thank the chairman for his answers.

' Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, how does this comply with the statements made by the Chairman of Executive Council on previous occasions when discussing this company, that we believed in this Court non-interference in private enterprise and private companies? Are we now going to have a change of policy?

Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the hon. chairman not agree that this subject would be best served by reference to the Board of Consumer Affairs, the agency set up by this hon. Court to deal with these topics?

Dr. Mann: It may well be that in the end we will be referring it to the respon­ sibility of the Consumer Council to ensure that the consumer’s rights are observed.

COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS — RIGHT OF APPEAL BY ISLAND RESIDENTS — QUESTION BY MR. IRVING

The Governor: Question 3 .1 call upon the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. Irving.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of Executive Council:

Will you take action to restore to persons resident in the Isle of Man the right of individual appeal to the Court of Human Rights?

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I consider this a very important question, but the question of the renewal of the right of individual appeal to the Court of Human Rights under the terms of the European Convention for the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms is due for review in January 1986. As such, the matter is scheduled for detailed consideration by Executive Council in the near future as to whether the right in question should be renewed or not, but of course the matter then has to be referred to Tynwald Court for consideration and decision, so that

Sea Ferry Tariff Increases — Establishment of Controlling Body — Question by Mr. Maddrell Court of Human Rights — Right of Appeal by Island Residents — Question by Mr. Irving T10 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 before the scheduled renewal or otherwise this hon. Court will have the chance of debating the issue.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, 1 am obliged to the hon. member for his reply.

UNIVERSITY COLLEGE IN THE ISLAND — PROGRESS TOWARDS ESTABLISHMENT — QUESTION BY MR. CAIN

The Governor: Question 4 .1 call upon the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Cain.

Mr. Cain: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of Executive Council:

WHEREAS towards the end of 1984 a proposal from General Technology Systems Limited for a feasibility study on the establishment of a university college in the Isle of Man was laid before Executive Council.

AND WHEREAS Executive Council referred the matter to the Board of Education for consideration and report.

AND WHEREAS no word has been received either by General Technology Systems Limited or their agents on any progress or decisions made in respect of the said proposal.

What progress, if any, is being made in this matter?

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I am sure we all appreciate that the hon. member for Ramsey is particularly interested in this proposal, but I am sure the hon. member would agree that a superficial examination of this proposal would not be satisfac­ tory and that there must be a detailed study before any commitment is made to the considerable capital and running costs involved. Executive Council has this matter under consideration and is awaiting a report from the Board of Education which I understand is nearing completion. When that report is received by Executive Council we will of course consider the matter further.

ISLE OF MAN STEAM PACKET COMPANY — REFERENDUM ON NATIONALISATION — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN

The Governor: Question 5. I call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. Cannan.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of Executive Council: Bearing in mind the overwhelming public dissatisfaction with the present shipping services provided by the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company and

University College in the Isand — Progress Towards Establishment — Question by Mr. Cain Isle of Man Steam Packet Company — Referendum on Nationalisation — Question bv Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 Til

the detrimental effect these shipping services are having upon the hopes, wishes, aspirations and future prosperity of the residents of the Isle of Man.

Will Executive Council recommend to Tynwald that a referendum be held in accordance with the Referendum Act 1979, Section 2, to determine the wishes of the people with regard to nationalisation (public ownership) of the Isle of Man Steam Packet Company?

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, as I understand it, the purpose of the Referendum Act is to provide the machinery for holding a referendum on matters of constitutional and national importance. In particular the Act provides the legal framework for the Isle of Man Government to ascertain the desires and wishes of the people if a vital constitutional question arises in respect of our relationship with the United Kingdom, for instance, or the European communities. In my opinion it would not be appropriate to use the referendum machinery for the purpose envisaged by this question.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Briefly, would I be correct in assuming that the Chief Minister, in not wishing to have a referendum on this matter and knowing to a certain extent the feelings of the people of the Isle of Man, is basically not in favour because the referendum would not be in favour of this policy, just causing embarrassment to the present disastrous policy on this matter?

Mr. Delaney: In a point of order, Your Excellency, he is not the Chief Minister in this Court, he is Chairman of Executive Council.

The Governor: Do you wish to answer the question?

Dr. Mann: Has he asked a question? (Laughter) I might point out to the hon. member that there are a group of companies who are in a similar status to the company referred to and that I see no particular reason why the reference of this particular matter relating to this particular company becomes an issue on which a national referendum should be raised.

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, a supplementary. What I was going to ask the member of the Council was, what would a referendum cost? Would it be in the region of £100,000?

Dr. Mann: The cost of a referendum would be the same as having a General Election, which is about £100,000.

Mr. Duggan: Is the Chief Minister aware that there have been big cut-backs in Sealink services to the Channel Islands with a reduction of 37 per cent, in staff?

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may I ask the hon. Chairman of Executive Council a supplementary question? What would he consider he would be nationalis­ ing in view of the fact that the two main ships in the company’s fleet at the moment are on lease to the company?

Isle of Man Steam Packet Company — Referendum on Nationalisation — Question by Mr. Cannan T12 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Dr. Mann: I think that neither of these supplementaries, if you might consider them, are relevant to the question.

FRONTIER CONTROLS ABOLITION — HARMONISATION OF V.A.T. AND EXCISE TAXES — QUESTION BY MR. IRVING

The Governor: Question 6. I call upon the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. Irving.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of Executive Council: Has Executive Council any observation to make on the recent EEC White Paper on Community plans to create a genuine market with the abolition of frontier controls and the necessary harmonisation of V.A.T. and Excise taxes by 1992? Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, to a certain extent this matter has to remain a hypothetical one until such time as practical steps are seen to be taken to achieve the result envisaged — that is, a genuine Common Market. I feel that this will re­ quire the exercise of a great deal more community spirit by the member states than has been evidenced to date. Having said that, it is obviously a subject which must be of concern to the Isle of Man Government and the effects of such moves to whatever extent they are actually implemented, anticipated and responded to in an Isle of Man context. I hope that answers the member’s question.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, may I ask a supplementary? I would ask the hon. member, would Executive Council please consider the engagement of a constitu­ tional lawyer to ensure that the interests of the Isle of Man are protected in any major changes in the Community?

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, if that becomes necessary as things develop, of course we will obtain the advice of those people that we need. At this particular moment there is consideration of the possibilities, but until they become real I think we would be best to avoid constitutional lawyers.

EXCHANGE CONTROLS — APPLICATION TO THE ISLAND — QUESTION BY MR. CAIN

The Governor: Question 7. I call upon the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Cain.

Mr. Cain: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of Executive Council: WHEREAS under current legislation exchange controls would be applied to the Island automatically if re-imposed by the United Kingdom Government.

AND WHEREAS it is reported in the Press that the Governments of Jersey and Guernsey are holding discussions with the Bank of England with

Frontier Controls Abolition — Harmonising of V.A.T. and Excise Taxes — Question by Mr. Irving Exchange Controls — Application to the Island — Question by Mr. Cain TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T13

the intention of drafting an agreement before the end of the year to the effect that any re-imposition of Exchange Controls will not apply to the Channel Islands.

Will you raise the matter with the Bank of England with the object of reaching a similar agreement with the United Kingdom Government? Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, the Press report to which the hon. member refers was incorrect. The Channel Islands have not held discussions with the Bank of England, nor are they hoping to draft an agreement before the end of 1985. The position is that representatives of the Channel Islands did have discussions with representatives of the United Kingdom some months ago, when the indication was given that monetary policy is a domestic affair for the Islands. The indication given by the major political parties in the United Kingdom is that exchange control will not be introduced in its old form, but Executive Council has agreed that the Finance Board should continue to take precautionary steps to attempt to ensure that if exchange control was re-imposed in its old form particularly, it would be administered as far as the Island was concerned from within the Isle of Man.

Mr. Cain: Your Excellency, could I ask a supplementary? In view of the fact that it is apparently agreed by the United Kingdom that exchange control is a domestic issue, would you not agree that the re-imposition of exchange control by the United Kingdom Government on the Isle of Man would therefore be contrary to the present constitutional convention in that they would be interfering with our domestic affairs?

Dr. Mann: It would certainly appear, Your Excellency, to interfere with the current convention in relationships between the two countries.

GOVERNMENT MORTGAGES — REDUCTION OF INTEREST RATE — QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN

The Governor: We move on to Question 8. I call upon the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Karran.

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Finance Board:

Will your board give consideration to reducing the rate of interest charged on Government mortgages which have been in existence for less than ten years?

Dr. Moore: Thank you, Your Excellency. Yes, the Finance Board will continue to keep this option in mind. However, financial circumstances for an individual can change for a wide number of reasons and the greatest pressures are not always in the earliest years of mortgage payments.

Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the chairman not agree that in view of the bank rate falling and the outlook is that it is going to continue

Government Mortgages — Reduction of Interest Rate — Question by Mr. Karran T14 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

to fall, now is the time for announcement by your board of its intention to reduce the rate on Government mortgages?

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, in the House Purchase Scheme borrowers from Government receive the benefits of rates of interest below the going market rate. The differential is currently about two per cent, below the current market rate, which effectively costs our Government £650,000 per annum. Since three months’ notice of any change needs to be given we need to set rates that can be held for a reasonable time. If mortgage rates do continue in the private sector to gradually come down I am hopeful that a decision can be made before the end of the year on some reduction in Government rates, but we will have to wait and see.

LHEN AND KILLANE TRENCHES — CLEARING OF DITCHES — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN

The Governor: Question 9. I call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. Cannan.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board:

Will your board take immediate action to clear the Lhen and Killane trenches and tributary ditches in order to reduce the flooding of property, crops and land? Mr. Quirk: Thank you, Your Excellency. At the moment the responsibility for the work that the hon. member for Michael requests be undertaken is entirely the responsibility of the frontages on either side of the trench and I think in those circumstances I cannot give the affirmative to the question that is asked. However, the hon. member will recall that the Highway Board took the first step in the statutory procedures necessary to become legally responsible for the maintenance of those trenches at the sitting of Tynwald on 9th July last in obtaining the Court’s approval to the Lhen and Killane trench border.

For the hon. member’s information I would just like to say that the board is anx­ ious to take over these trenches and we wish to do so as soon as possible. However, we had attempted at the early part of the year to obtain concurrence to the putting of a resolution on the Agenda paper of Tynwald but we did not get this concurrence until the July sitting, so this meant that a lot of the work which we may have done in the summer time had to be abandoned because of the statutory provisions which had to be exercised accordingly. They were to place a map on the table and to wait for complaints. I know that the hon. member will have noted that on the Agenda today will be the final step, I hope, that we will take in obtaining permission from this hon. Court to exercise our responsibilities over these trenches.

Lhen and Killane Trenches — Clearing of Ditches — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T15

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I thank the chairman for his reply. I note the item on the Agenda and I have just one supplementary. If the item is passed by this Court today or tomorrow, will the chairman give an undertaking that he will put the work in hand for the clearing of these main drainage areas in the north of the Island virtually immediately, starting next Monday or the Monday afterwards, because with this very wet summer there is a lot of difficulty and I know the chair­ man has been down himself to see it?

Mr. Quirk: I think if the hon. member with his customary patience will await the answer to that, we will endeavour to get down to it.(Laughter)

TROMODE ROAD — COMMENCEMENT OF IMPROVEMENT WORKS — QUESTION BY MR. IRVING

The Governor: Question 10. I call upon the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. Irving.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board:

When will work begin to improve the general state of the Tromode Road in Douglas, including the dangerous junction of Tromode Road with Quarter- bridge Road?

Mr. Quirk: Thank you, Your Excellency. I am sure the hon. member is aware that the Douglas Corporation acts as agents in carrying out the highway maintenance and improvements within the former borough department area, and indeed the widening of Tromode Road has been for years a matter for debate in the Town Council and many alternatives have been suggested including one of the provision of a rural type of footpath within the fields used by the Board of Education and the Gymm’s Football Club. However, sufficient finance has never been available and the road remains unaltered except for additional minimum street lighting which was installed some years ago. However, the Corporation is still of the opinion that a comprehensive widening should take place and therefore an item was included in the list of supplementary items submitted to my board for inclusion in our capital works programme. The list contains seven schemes for consideration, and the widening of Tromode Road appears as item number 4 in the order of priority suggested by members of the works committee. I am advised that the Borough Engineer’s department is currently updating the survey of the existing roadway and will, in the near future, be making the first approaches to the property owners with a view to obtaining their agreement in principle and to commence negotiations for the acquisition of the land for the proposed widening.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I thank the hon. member for a not completely satisfactory reply.

Tromode Road — Commencement of Improvement Works — Question by Mr. Irving T16 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

TOURIST BOARD — ADVERTISING EXPENDITURE — QUESTION BY MR. DELANEY

The Governor: We move on to Question 11. The hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Tourist Board:

(1) What were the amounts spent by your board in the last financial year (1984/85) on advertising — (i) on television; (ii) on radio; (iii) in newspapers;

and what sums is it intended to spend during the current financial year (1985/86)?

(2) What amount was specifically in respect of advertising in —

(i) U.K. national newspapers, periodicals, television and radio; (ii) Irish national newspapers, periodicals, television and radio; (iii) all other?

Mr. Lowey: Thank you, Your Excellency. The amount spent by the board on advertising in the last financial year 1984/85 was: television £123,500; Manx Radio £500, print, £390,500, giving a total of £514,000. Of this amount £52,000 was spent in the Irish Republic, roughly just over ten per cent. The corresponding figures for 1985/1986 are: to date television £31,000, Manx Radio £6,000, print £342,000, giv­ ing a total of £379,000, and of this £28,000 will be spent in Southern Ireland. Hon. members will also know that because of the cuts imposed at Budget time the board has some £100,000 less to spend on advertising than it had last year. The board therefore sought the best possible advice to ensure that the money it does have is put to the best possible use. I regret — and hon. members will be fully aware — that there will be no television advertising for the Isle of Man this coming year as spelt out in May, and our present newly appointed advertising agency Young and Rubicam have confirmed that. Both members of Tynwald and representatives of the tourist industry have recently had an opportunity to see the presentation of Young and Rubicam’s campaign and I am very pleased to see that it has generally been very well received by the trade.

YEAR OF SPORT — ESTIMATED NUMBER OF VISITORS AND EXPENDITURE — QUESTION BY MR. DELANEY

The Governor: Question 12,1 call upon the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney.

Tourist Board — Advertising Expeniture — Question by Mr. Delaney Year of Sport — Estimated Number of Visitors and Expenditure — Question by Mr. Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T17

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Tourist Board:—

What is the estimated number of people attracted to the Island by events either organised or partly or wholly financed by your board as part of its normal promotional budget?

What was the amount of money estimated to be spent on events and attractions in this financial year from 1st January to the present date?

Mr. Lowey: Thank you, Your Excellency. The total amount of money allowed in the budget of the Tourist Board for the funding of the Year of Sport was: in 1984/85 £75,000 and 1985/86 — that is this year — £250,000. The total amount of money spent by-my board on events and attractions in the period 1st January to date is some £267,300. This is a somewhat incomplete figure, however, since the number of accounts in respect of events which have already taken place have still to be submitted to the board for payment. It may be more helpful to the hon. member, therefore, if I say that my board’s estimated expenditure on events and attractions for 1985/86 — that is until next April — is £315,680; this figure of course, does not include the assistance to the T.T. and the Manx Grand Prix which are a separate item in my board’s budget. This assistance covered some 75 events over a wide range of activities. It is almost impossible to separately identify those visitors who may have been attracted to the Island by particular events, but a very good estimate of the total is in the range of between 30,000 and 40,000 visitors.

I welcome the hon. member’s question as an opportunity to publicly thank the staff of our events and attractions department — and I know the hon. member is fully conversant with the staff, having been the chairman of them for many years — for their willingness to put in very long hours, often outside normal office hours, and for the enthusiasm that they bring to their work. Hon. members will be aware that the special interest and activity holidays are a growing and important part of the holiday market and my board will continue to do all it can to encourage and support suitable events.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency I thank the hon. chairman for his comprehensive reply. Could he also give me the figure, which he will obviously have ready for the supplementary, the amount spent on the T.T. races and the number of people attracted to that event, or were the numbers quoted also included in the T.T. races?

Mr. Lowey: No figures of people coming did not include the visitors for the T.T. races and the amount of money spent on the Grand Prix and the T.T. races — and I will get it in this pink book of estimates — by the way, that par­ ticular vote has not risen for the last four years, I am pleased to say, for the T.T. and the Grand Prix — this current year it will be £612,050 nett expenditure on both those events.

Mr. Delaney: And the number of people estimated to come to the T.T?

Year of Sport — Estimated Number of Visitors and Expenditure — Question by Mr. Delaney T18 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. Lowey: I have not got those figures with me but I believe . . . I would be guessing, but I will certainly let the member have them before dinner.

Mr. Delaney: Can I take it the figure quoted by your public relations people that were on Manx Radio yesterday as the number after the T.T. is the figure you accept?

Mr. Lowey: Yes.

OFF-PEAK FARES ON BUSES — QUESTION BY MR. BROWN

The Governor: We move on to question 13 and I call upon the hon. member for Castletown, Mr. Brown.

Mr. Brown: Thank you, Your Excellency, 1 beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Passsenger Transport Board: Will your board consider the introduction of ‘off-peak fares’ on buses throughout the Island?

The Governor: The Chairman of the Isle of Man Passenger Transport Board.

Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, a scheme of off-peak fares was introduced by the Passenger Transport Board for a six-month trial period concentrating on the Douglas and Onchan areas five years ago. Apart from being supported by the public at that time there was no noticeable increase in passengers, and all that happened was that many of those who would normally have travelled at peak times merely switched to off-peak times. The nett result at the end of this trial period was a shortfall of over £50,000 in revenue to my board. Such an alarming fall in revenue could eventually lead to a reduction in service and a loss of jobs, something my board is not prepared to consider. Obviously, with the financial constraints placed on my board, a further experiment of this nature is out of the question during the current financial year.

I have to say that I have a great deal of sympathy with the motives behind the question of the hon. member for Castletown but 1 am sure he will agree that the main obstacle to lower fares is political and not managerial. If Tynwald will agree to underwrite any possible shortfall in revenue and accept that the buses are a social service rather than a commercial operation, which I believe they should be, then my board will undertake to introduce such a scheme at the earliest possible opportunity.

I would just like to take this opportunity also to remind the hon. questioner that my board is constantly looking at ways to make the buses more attractive to the travelling public. In the last few months we have introduced half-price travel for the unemployed and also half-price travel for the young people attending the

Off-Peak Fares on Buses — Question by Mr. Brown TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T19 training centre and those engaged on the youth vocational experience.programme. Currently we are looking at ways to help the handicapped and, subject to the approval of the Road Traffic Commissioners, we will be soon increasing the discount allowed on our discount tickets from 20 per cent, to 40 per cent., which means that five return or ten single tickets can be purchased in advance for the price of three returns or six singles, which we hope will be a considerable inducement for people to look more favourably on bus travel. And of course on top of that we already operate quite a range of concessionary fares, so I hope the hon. members will appreciate that we are trying very hard to attact more people onto public transport in spite of the limitations placed upon us.

Mr. Payne: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would it be correct to say that the Onchan scheme which was tried five years ago — the fare was cut to about a quarter of what it should have been and, as a result of that quarter fare, the passengers doubled, which in effect meant that the board had lost twice as much as they were losing before?

Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, yes, I believe so (Laughter.)

BUCHAN SCHOOL — TERMINATION OF HEADMISTRESS’S SERVICES — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN

The Governor: Question 14, I call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. Cannan.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Board of Education:—

WHEREAS the Manx Government has voted £150,000 in the current year towards the maintenance of the Buchan School.

AND WHEREAS it is the responsibility of the Board of Education to maintain standards in the private sector.

Does your board support the action of the governors of the Buchan School in terminating the services of the headmistress?

Mr. Kneale: Your Excellency, I have been away from the Island for ten days and before I left I prepared an answer to this question, but since I returned I have read a letter in the Manx Star of 4th October signed by Rosa Drown of Castletown referring to this question, and because of some of the statements made in that letter I feel obliged to give a much fuller answer than I had previously intended.

I would explain to hon. members that Mrs. Drown is one of seven teachers who had made complaints to the governors of the Buchan School about the principal, and I consider it deplorable that she should make reference to Mr. Cannan’s daughter

Buchan School — Termination of Headmistress’s Services — Question by Mr. Cannan T20 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 in her letter to the Press but, leaving that aside, it is some of the false impressions that she has given in her letter that has led me to comment on it.

She states that an agreement was made by Tynwald in 1976 for the Buchan to receive a subsidy over a period of 15 years in order that the school be able to finance its re-building programme. Now this is not so. For a long period of years the Buchan School has received a Government grant equivalent to one half of the teachers’ salaries and superannuation and this figure amounts to approximately £150,000 this year, which was the figure mentioned by the hon. member in his question.

In June 1976 a resolution was approved by Tynwald which read as follows: “That Tynwald approves an arrangement whereby the Board of Education will continue its financial support for the Buchan School for a further period of fifteen years or for the period of repayment of loans borrowed by the School Authority for building work, whichever is the shorter, on the understanding that (a) the school will declare its intention of becoming an independent school and will thus cease to be eligible for assistance from public funds; (b) the school will indicate its intention to increase fees in order to provide the funds necessary to develop and expand the facilities provided; (c) the school will embark upon a building programme of modernisation and expansion to be financed from loans from a private source.” It was not a subsidy to allow the Buchan School to finance its rebuilding programme, it was the continuation of existing financial support, but this time conditions were imposed and a maximum period of continuation stated. Now, during the debate in Tynwald in 1976 it was made quite clear that none of this money was to be used to repay either the capital sum or the interest on the building scheme.

Now, having explained the basis of the £150,000 mentioned in the hon. member for Michael’s question I will deal with the part of the question that was asked whether my board supports the action of the governors of the Buc(ian School in terminating the services of the headmistress. The Board of Education are far from satisfied with the situation at the Buchan School and the Tynwald members were authorised to carry out an enquiry. Before proceeding with an enquiry we asked for a meeting with the governors of the Buchan School, such meeting taking place on 15th July, when the governors promised their co-operation if the board decided to carry out an enquiry, but since then the chairman of the governors seems to have gone out of his way to find reasons why we should not carry out an inquiry. Nevertheless, from the information we had already received it was very clear that such an inquiry was necessary and we started with a meeting with the board’s four representatives on the governors on 28th August. A further meeting was arranged with them for 11th September and also with other involved persons. On the day before that meeting took place we learned that the governors had that very day decided to advertise for a replacement to Mrs. Perkins as principal. To explain our reaction to that news 1 can do no better than read the letter that was immediately sent to the bursar of the Buchan School. It is dated the 10th September and reads as follows: “ Dear Mr. Kelly, I am informed that the Governors at their meeting today decided to advertise for a replacement to Mrs Perkins as principal. It thus seems that an inquiry that the board may make in respect of events leading up to the termination

Buchan School — Termination of Headmistress’s Services — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T21 of the principal’s contract is irrelevant so far as the actual appointment is concerned. It seems equally clear that the governors of the Buchan have chosen to disregard any opinion the Board of Education may have wished to express on the matter. The declaration by the governors that they welcome an inquiry and wished to co-operate with it has accordingly little or no meaning. For that reason I am authorised to inform you that there is no longer any purpose in the Board of Education continuing its investigation into the matter of the termination of the principal’s contract. The board, however, continues to be concerned about the procedures available at the Buchan in respect of staff grievance and in respect of disciplining of staff. You were kind enough to let me have copies of the minutes of the meetings of 24th May, 4th and 10th June 1985, and from the reading of those minutes it is clear that there was an absence of an adequate procedure which allowed staff to air grievances without undermining the authority of the principal. The board is also concerned that the governors of the Buchan have frequently disregarded the terms of the school’s article of government in the matter of the annual election of chairmen and vice-chairmen, in the matter of the composition of sub-committees and in the matter of the requirement under Section 3 for all governors to sign a declaration of acceptance. The board has no wish to interfere in the internal management of the Buchan School. With so much public money being paid by the board in respect of staff at the Buchan it nevertheless has a duty to be satisfied as to the fairness and efficiency of that management. The Finance and Executive Committee of the board will thus shortly be reconsidering its position with respect to the financial support given to the Buchan in order to ascertain whether the continuation of such support could be justified in circumstances where the board has little control or influence. In order to assist the board in reaching a decision on this point you are invited to submit a full report in reply to the concerns expressed above about the grievance and disciplinary procedures and about the adherence or otherwise by the governors to the articles of government. You are also invited to add any comments you may feel would be helpful to the Finance and Executive Committee in making their decision. Yours sincerely, Alan Davies, Director of Education.”

Now, up to the time I left the Island the only reaction to our letter that I have heard of was that a notice signed by Mr. Simcocks, the chairman of governors, was put on the staff notice board of the Buchan school, which read as follows: “The local Press has recently reported that the Board of Education intended to enquire into the circumstances of the notice given by the governors to the principal to determine her appointment. I can inform you that the Board of Education has now decided not to proceed with the inquiry.” Now it is probably this notice which has prompted Mrs Drown to write in her letter to the Press, “ that the Board of Education have decided not to proceed with their enquiry so must have satisfied themselves that the governors have acted quite legitimately.”

Well, the letter which was sent to the Bursar and which I have just made public should dispel any illusions on that matter. The Tynwald members of the board are far from satisfied. Admittedly the Governors of the Buchan school have used a method of determination of contract available to them under the articles of govern­ ment but, in our opinion based on the written evidence we have before us, they

Buchan School — Termination of Headmistress’s Services — Question by Mr. Cannan T22 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 have used this particular method to deny the principal the right to appeal to the board. Because of this we believe that the principal is fully justified in taking legal action against the governors of the Buchan school; in fact, it would appear to be the only option left open to her.

In conclusion I would add that since my return home I have been shown a letter from Mr. Simcocks addressed to the Director of Education in response to our let­ ter of 10th September which ends with these words: “ Please treat this letter as strictly confidential.”

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I would ask a supplementary. Would this not actually have been sub judice if it is going to a Court? 1 would have thought that it probably would have been better if it had not been discussed. The other question is, is it correct that the head teacher was given one year’s notice and accommodation provided for her during that period?

The Governor: I call upon the Attorney-General to answer.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, perhaps I could just make a comment on that. 1 have ascertained as of this morning that no court proceedings have been commenced. Clearly, if court proceedings are commenced this would put some of these matters in a different perspective but that is the position as at the moment, Your Excellency.

Mr. Cannan: Some supplementaries, Your Excellency, and 1 thank the Chair­ man of the Board of Education for a most comprehensive and wide-ranging reply. I would ask the chairman to confirm — I think he already has — or refute the state­ ment recently made in the letter to the local newspaper by a member of the school staff that the Board of Education Tynwald members are — and I quote from the letter — “ no reason to be so especially concerned with the welfare of the school which will soon become independent.”

The second supplementary I would ask the chairman — is he aware that a gover­ nor of the school for 14 years and a former Director of Education has resigned for reasons which it is alleged are his utter abhorrence of the unfair way the principal has been treated and that there is at least a prima facie case for further inquiry, and 1 would ask further from the Chairman of the Board of Education that bearing in mind that the National Association of Head Teachers-are likely to institute legal proceedings in the near future against the board of governors, will he give an assurance that no public funds from the Board of Education will be used by the governors to subsidise the legal fees of a possible lengthy protracted court case?

Mr. Kneale: In answer to the third question first I can say we can certainly give that assurance that no Government money will be used to fight any court cases or in any way. Now the other question regarding the remarks in the paper — I point out to the Court that the Board of Education has the responsibility for all schools in the Island, and that includes the Buchan and King William’s College, to ensure that the education being provided is satisfactory. It is because of letters that we

Buchan School — Termination of Headmistress’s Services — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T23

have received from parents, from teachers and the reports of three of the governors that we were instituting an inquiry or intended to institute an inquiry.

The former director — we are aware that Mr. C. Wilkinson who was the Direc­ tor of Education in the Isle of Man for a number of years, has resigned in protest at the procedure that was adopted at this school and we have had a meeting with Mr. Wilkinson and a full written report from him.

Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, may I ask on a point of order, is it not quite contrary to natural justice and grossly unfair that Question Time should be used as an opportunity for major speeches giving one side of a very controversial matter when nobody has a chance to speak on the other side. I think it is quite appalling, Your Excellency.(Members: Hear, hear.)

Mr. Kneale: It is a question of natural justice that enters very much into this.

SOCIAL SECURITY ACT 1982 — AVAILABILITY OF TEXT — QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY

The Governor: I believe we should now proceed to question number 15 if there are no more supplementaries and I call on the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Cretney.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Board of Social Security:—

WHEREAS your board is required by Section 1(8) of the Social Security Act 1982 to make a copy of the text prepared under Section 1(7) available for public inspection free of charge at its offices at all times when those offices are open to the public.

AND WHEREAS such legislation is not always freely available.

Will you give this matter your urgent attention?

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I am grateful to the hon. member for affording me this opportunity of confirming that the extensive task of consolidating in a single work the law of social security in the Isle of Man is almost complete and should be ready for publication by the end of this year. A copy of that work, which will be readily updated to reflect the measures to which the question refers using the word-processing facilities of the Treasury computer, will be freely available for reference purposes in the board’s offices and, hopefully, at other places of reference throughout the Island. I take it the hon. member would like to see the document.The document is comprehensive; when you consider the size of the document War and ■Peace takes 1300 words and this document is 9000 pages against that; We are talk­

Social Security Act 1982 — Availability of Text — Question by Mr. Cretney T24 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

ing about a document seven times the size of War and Peace so it is a comprehensive document which should take a little bit of time to study!

SANDFIELD COMPLEX, CASTLETOWN — PROVISION OF A CARE AND ATTENTION HOME — QUESTION BY MR. BROWN

The Governor: Then I think we can safely move on to question number 16. The hon. member for Castletown, Mr. Brown.

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Board of Social Security:—

Will your board investigate the possibility of providing a Care and Attention Home on land adjoining the Sandfield Complex, Castletown?

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, 1 confirm that as indicated in the board’s policy statement in Tynwald in February last, legislation is being introduced to give effect to the transfer to the Health Services Board of my board’s present responsibilities for the provision and operation of Care and Attention Homes. It is hoped that the transfer will be achieved by 1st April next. It would be inappropriate, therefore, for my board to give an undertaking sought in the question and also commit a board which has at the moment some difficulties, financial particularly.

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, could I ask a supplementary on that? I would have thought, with all respect to the hon. chairman, that to actually start an in­ vestigation which could be transferred to the Health Services Board in next year, some six months away, would not be something that could cause any detriment to either board and, as we all know, could the chairman confirm that the actual budgetary provision would be something that would come later?

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, the supplementary is gratefully received by me but, as the hon. member knows as the chairman of a board himself, the budget time is specified for laying down when those budgets will take place. This year I was not responsible for the budget; next year I will already be budgeting for what we will be responsible for in the forthcoming year. Therefore it would still be wrong for me, Your Excellency, to permit another board of Government, and particularly with the financial restraints being placed upon us all, to the cost of a new complex of the size envisaged by the hon. member’s question in his constituency, but one of the principal reasons for the transfer responsibility for Care and Attention Homes in the Health Services Board is to allow better utilisation of resources and provide the facility for a more co-ordinated and structured admission policy. It will place responsibility for hospitals, geriatric units and residential homes and community health services under a single area of control and will streamline the process of consultation and co-ordination with the providers of sheltered accommodation within the Island.

Sandfield Complex, Castletown — Provision of a Care and Attention Home — Question by Mr. Brown TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T25

I am aware, and I do take up that the member’s question is generally put, looking after his constituents but the hon. member must be aware of the limited number of people who apply for accommodation in the homes under the supervision of my board.

Mr. Brown: A further supplementary, Your Excellency. Could the chairman then state whether he would object to an approach being made to the Health Services Board at this stage to start such an inquiry?

Mr. Delaney: I am not in a position to object to any member making an approach to any board, Your Excellency.

SUPPLEMENTARY BENEFIT —RIGHTS OF ABSENT CLAIMANTS QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY

The Governor: We move on to question number 17. The hon. member for South Douglas Mr. Cretney.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of Social Security —

WHEREAS those in receipt of unemployment benefit and some other benefit claimants are allowed to leave the Island for a period of time provided they leave a forwarding address and will guarantee to return if an opportunity for employment arises, without having such benefit ceased.

AND WHEREAS those in receipt of supplementary benefit are not paid their benefit under regulations if they have to leave the Island for whatever reason.

Will you raise this matter with your board with a view to allowing such claimants the same rights as those in receipt of unemployment benefit?

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I will take the full four minutes on this particular question because it is comprehensive. The hon. member makes certain statements in the preamble to his question which require correction or at least clarification.

Firstly there is no specific provision in the law relating to unemployment benefit which allows or requires the payment of that benefit by the board to persons temporarily absent from the Island. The absentee has to be looked at in terms of one of the basic conditions governing benefit entitlement, which is that the days for which benefit is claimed can be accepted as days of unemployment within the meaning of the Act and the regulations. What constitutes a day of unemployment in terms of benefit hinges on many considerations, including whether it is a day on which the claimant is available for employment. Generally speaking, however, a person in receipt of Isle of Man unemployment benefit who is temporarily absent Supplementary Benefit — Rights of Absent Claimants — Question by Mr. Cretney T26 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

in the United Kingdom for a period not exceeding 16 days will be deemed to be available for employment subject to him or her being ready and willing to curtail the absence in order to accept at once any suitable employment which might be notified to him or her.

It follows also that the claimant must notify with his or her absence or with the position of the temporary residence which would prevent notification or an immediate acceptance by the claimant of any suitable employment. A person in receipt of Isle of Man unemployment benefit who is temporarily absent from the Island at a location outside the United Kingdom is deemed to be available for employment and therefore disentitlement to an unemployment benefit for the duration of that absence, however short. So far as the supplementary benefit is concerned, it is incorrect to say that it is not payable during the temporary absences. All supplementary pensions may continue to receive the benefit for up to the first four weeks of temporary absence from the Island irrespective of the temporary location. This same provision applied to certain categories of supplementary beneficiaries under pension age. In the main those entitled to the benefit is not conditional upon their being available for employment, but supplementary beneficiaries whose title to the benefit is conditional upon their being registered and available for employment are disqualified from benefit for periods of absence from the Island. Such a person who is temporarily absent in Great Britain and without resources would of course be able to claim from the British Government for supple­ mentary benefit purposes.

As to the question I would remind the board at its next meeting of these facts. I think, however, it would be quite wrong of me to commit the board to any change at this time. There are certain fundamental differences in principle as between unemployment benefit and supplementary benefit for the unemployed which do not allow for the ready equation sought by the hon. member’s question.

Recently, I can say to the hon. member, a number of situations have been brought to my attention by members of this hon. Court, certainly of the House of Keys, where a sympathetic view is taken; we have to because of the number of unemployed we have in the Island who may wish to seek employment elsewhere and at the same time not have a specific job to go to. I hope that the employment committee of which I am a member will take up this particular case so that we can at least give encouragement to unemployed persons in the Isle of Man to seek employment elsewhere if we cannot provide it.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, a supplementary. The question was for the Chair­ man of the Board of Social Security to raise the matter; he has agreed to do that but without saying that he can follow it up. All I am asking is, the Chairman of the Board of Social Security is fully aware of the one situation that I am talking about and the officers of the Board of Social Security said that for whatever reason a person in receipt of supplementary benefit who through no fault of their own are in receipt of supplementary benefit cannot leave the Island for whatever reason, whether their mother has died or for any reason. Will the chairman confirm or deny this?

Supplementary Benefit — Rights of Absent Claimants — Question by Mr. Cretney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T27

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I take the supplementary question in the way it is intended, and I point out that I am aware of the individual case. I hope 1 am aware of all cases of members constituents where they have difficulty. The member for Ramsey, Mr. Bell, raised three cases with me within the last seven days of a similar nature and we do intend to take up the cudgel on this particular matter. Never mind that, Your Excellency, we are tied by legislation and my officers have not got that power. If it is the will of the Court that power be given to assist these people I certainly am not one who is going to deny it.

FISHING BOAT HULKS —DEPOSITING — QUESTION BY MR. MORREY

The Governor: Thank you, we move on to question number 18 and I call upon the hon. member for Ayre, Mr. Morrey.

Mr. Morrey: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Harbour Board:

Whereas it appears to be the policy of your board to deposit derelict fishing boat hulks around the north east shores of the Isle of Man. Do you intend to continue this practice? Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, the short answer to the hon. member is ‘no’, sir. I am obliged to the hon. member for drawing my attention to this matter and I can assure him that at the meeting of the Harbour Board in two days’ time we will give very careful consideration to the disposal in future of derelict vessels. Personally I am completely opposed to littering any part of the coastline of the Island with derelict fishing boat hulks.

Mr. Morrey: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Why did not the Harbour Board just either pull the plug out on these vessels or beach them at a high tide and set fire to them?

Mr. Delaney: Preferably with the Government on board! (Laughter)

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, the disposal of fairly large fishing vessels and hulks does not happen very often — it is every two or three years perhaps. I am now informed that on 1st August this year a certain derelict fishing vessel was beached near Maughold Head and the stern was to be blown off to allow the tide to wash the boat away in pieces; it involved a controlled explosion and I must confess, sir, it was short on control and long on disposal (Laughter) and certain pieces of this ship, I understand, landed in a field at Maughold Head. Since then I understand that the owner of the land has been approached by the Harbour Board insurers and received the apologies of the officials concerned, and I can certainly assure the hon. member and the hon. member for Garff that such a thing will not happen in future.

Fishing Boat Hulks — Depositing — Question by Mr. Morrey T28 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

The Speaker: Your Excellency, a supplementary, with your permission. Would the hon. chairman, when giving consideration to future policy, make an approach to the Laxey village commissioners to see whether or not the depositing of such hulks in Laxey bay would be an acceptable practice to offset the predatory actions of unauthorised trawlers sweeping that bay clear of fish at the present time and thereby protecting the angling interests of the village?

Mr. Irving: Certainly sir, the Harbour Board will take into consideration the statement of the hon. member at the meeting in two days’ time.

Mr. Morrey: Your Excellency, in view of the fact that these bits were blown some 300 yards into the field, does the Chairman of the Harbour Board say that his experts bungled the job?

Mr. Irving: I think perhaps the levels of the quantity of explosive fuse might be more suitable for the Mona’s Isle than this. (Laughter)

ELECTORAL ROLLS — REGISTRATION OF ELIGIBLE PERSONS, ETC. — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN

The Governor: We move on to question 19 and I call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. Cannan.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Assess­ ment Board: Is it correct that local canvassers were employed last May/June to follow up on persons who had failed to return completed voters’ registration forms in Douglas and Ramsey but in no other constituencies?

If so —

(a) Why was similar action not taken in respect of the other con­ stituencies?

(b) What action does your board intend to take to ensure that all persons eligible to be registered as voters in 1986 are entered on the electoral rolls? Mr. Duggan: Your Excellency, I thank the hon. member for the opportunity for correcting an error of interpretation of the Assessment Board’s action which has resulted in more than one scurrilous report in the local newspapers. The Assess­ ment Board employed local canvassers in Douglas and in Ramsey because it was known that the temporary canvassers using those areas in past years were available at short notice, and as those areas had the largest residential populations it was considered that the most effective use of a follow-up would be achieved. It transpired that the temporary canvassers had to be used primarily to deliver forms to households where no forms were delivered in the original postal canvass.

Electoral Rolls — Registration of Eligible Persons, Etc. — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T29

To explain briefly what had occurred, it should be understood that an adhesive label was printed by computer for every property on the valuation list and address­ ed to the occupier. Those labels were attached to the blank registration forms and sent out with a covering letter and “ Reply Paid” label by post. It was assumed that every household had been included in this exercise but later it was discovered that one class of property referred to in the valuation list as house/flats would receive only one form.

As there were a number of separate households in each of these properties it was considered necessary to use the temporary officers who were already familiar with these properties to visit them and deliver a form to each separate flat. The two areas in which these properties are found in numbers are Douglas and Ramsey. The period available for the exercise was less than three weeks and included T.T. week practice periods. Three persons were employed in Douglas, one for less than the full period and one in Ramsey. From consideration of the first draft of the 1984 Act by the Assessment Board in April 1982 a postal canvass was agreed as a surplus means available, as in recent years the Douglas canvassers had reported that in going from door to door there was no answer to their calls in six out of ten houses in many areas. The forms then had to be left for return through the postal system. Postal deliveries are made to all residential properties and every such property has access to a postbox for a reply. There is no reason for non-reply except for unoccupied properties other than lethargy. Apart from the time factor involved in this the first year of operating the new legislation, when the computer programmes for preparing the lists were only being written after the canvass was underway, the question of financing any proposed follow-up canvass arose. The Assessment Board has no vote for carrying out its duties under the Registration of Electors Act, the only source of finance being the Representation of the People Acts vote which for estimate and administration purposes comes under the control of Government Office. If a door- to-door canvass is considered as being essential in any future canvass the funding will have to be considered by the responsible body.

Mr. Cannan: Thank you, sir. There are two supplementaries. Is the Chairman aware that the Registration of Electors Act 1982 Section 4(2) states — and I quote — “The clerk of every local authority shall assist the registration officer in the preparation of lists of voters for any polling district which wholly or partly falls within the district of the authority” so I would ask the chairman, why did not the Assessment Board staff, when the realised complaints were coming in, take advantage of that section of the Act and require the clerks of the local authorities who were available to give assistance?

Secondly, sir, will you instruct your staff that in 1986, when they draw the lists up for next year, they will take advantage of that section of the Act and seek the assistance of local authority clerks so that this trauma — and I think it is a trauma, sir — that has happened this year will not happen again?

Finally sir— and this is important — to overcome the immediate problem of people whose names are not on the electoral lists and bearing in mind that there are elections in Douglas, Ramsey, Castletown, Peel, the village districts of all parish districts

Electoral Rolls — Registration of Eligible Persons, Etc. — Question by Mr. Cannan T30 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 in April 1986, will he consider issuing a supplemental list so that the 1986 local elections can have some credibility? And I would add, incidentally, that those not on the list are avoiding jury service.

Mr. Duggan: Thank you, Your Excellency. I have taken the point the hon. member for Michael has raised. Actually it is also up to the clerk of the local authority to assist as well and we have written to the Clerk of the Michael parish commissioners on that theme.

Also I would like to point out that the lists are now more accurate than they have ever been. In the past what the Assessment Board used to do was to go from door- to-door with a door-to-door canvass and they used to stick people’s names down if they did not get a reply. Of course you got a lot more people on the lists but they were false numbers on the lists. At least now we know that the lists are more accurate than they have ever been with the present system.

Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, may I ask a supplementary? As the hon. chair­ man has said in his reply to us that the onus is really on the person and that they are guilty, according to his board, of lethargy, would he also agree that his board is being guilty of complacency and the mix between the two is giving rise to righteous indignation by a large number of people?

When questioned by myself, I think, in April of this year on this very subject, is it not an incredible situation that we find ourselves in where nearly 5,000 people are in effect disenfranchised this year? Is he happy with that situation?

Mr. Duggan: I do not like the hon. member’s attitude, Your Excellency, saying my board is being complacent. I do not think we are being complacent one little bit. We went out of our way regarding the voters’ lists this year. I went on Manx Radio at least on three occasions asking people to send the forms in. And another thing too — people who do not send their forms in could be fined, but the board has not taken these steps yet; we have been very lenient with the people. But the thing is, I think there is a lot of apathy; people will not send in the forms. As I say, we have got 80 per cent, of the forms back in, but the remainder — some people just will not go and vote and they just will not send the forms in. Other than com­ pulsory voting, I do not know what to do, sir.

HEALTH SERVICE — ENQUIRY INTO FUNDING AND OPERATION — QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN

The Governor: We move on to question 20. I call upon the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Karran.

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Health Services Board:

Health Service — Enquiry into Funding and Operation — Question by Mr. Karran TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T31

What progress has been made by the independent enquiry into the funding and operation of the Island’s Health Services of which you informed Tynwald on 9th July 1985? Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, in reply to the question tabled by the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Karran, I think it would be helpful if I were to clarify the position. As hon. members are aware, the Health Services Board decided in July last, in the light of controversy surrounding the proposed closure of the White Hoe hospital, that the board should, in conjunction with Executive Council, commission an independent inquiry into the Island’s health service. The inquiry was seen as necessary in securing impartial advice on the future of the service as a whole with specific reference to geriatric services in and around Douglas, having regard always to the financial restrictions imposed on the board. Since that time, following further communications between the board and Executive Council it was decided that the inquiry should be held under Section 56 of the National Health Service (Isle of Man) Act 1948 which gives the board power to hold inquiries into any matters for which it was legislatively responsible. The board and indeed Executive Council has always held to the view that the impartiality seen as so important could only be achieved in the circumstances where those selected for the task were drawn from outside the Island and therefore in a position above and free from the possibility of set position taken up by local groupings here. To meet this requirement approaches were made through the Government Office via the Home Office to the Department of Health and Social Security seeking their assistance in obtaining the names of persons thought suitable and drawn preferably from, within or associated with the department.

I should perhaps mention that is was immediately recognised by all that the inquiry should, in view of time factors, concentrate initially at least on those areas where the effects of the requirements to contain expenditure had caused most concern.

Hon. members will be pleased to learn that the terms of reference have been agreed and that a representative of the Department of Health and Social Security has recently visited the Island primarily to acquaint himself with those services upon which the inquiry is to concentrate so as to enable recommendations to be made to the department with regard to suitable persons seen as appropriate to carry out what will inevitably be an extremely difficult undertaking.

Your Excellency, I can assure the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Karran, that the members of the Health Services Board are as anxious as anyone, if not more so, to get the inquiry completed as quickly as possible. The original intention was to require the inquiry to have their report available by the 31st October, but despite every effort on the part of the Health Services Board this will not be possible and the present indications are that it will possibly be early in the New Year before the report can reasonably be expected.

Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the chairman not agree that in view of the reasons he has given to the Court, we have some sort of assurance

Health Service — Enquiry into Funding and Operation — Question by Mr. Karran T32 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 that there is an interim report on it, and can the hon. Chairman of the Health Services Board give any indication of names as to who is going to be on this committee or this inquiry team?

Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, quickly, with regard to an assurance to provide an interim report, I am not in a position to give any guarantee in that respect.

The person with whom contact has been made at the present time is a gentleman by the name of Mr. Patrick Benner and he is recently retired secretary in the Department of the Health and Social Security.

ELECTRICITY “ALL-ISLAND POWER STATION SCHEME — QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY

The Governor: Question number 21. I call upon the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Cretney.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Energy Committee:

Will you make a statement on the Manx Electricity Authority’s Scheme for an “ all-island” power station at Pulrose and, in particular, its suitability —

(a) as a long-term answer to the Island’s energy problem as against cable supply and gas-driven generation; and

(b) on environmental (noise and smoke) grounds? Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, there is some difficulty in replying to this because a statement is being made later on this Agenda concerning a report from the Energy Committee. I hope the hon. member will accept that.

Mr. Cretney: Yes, Your Excellency, I accept that.

WREN SKYSHIPS LIMITED — APPLICATION FOR GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE — QUESTION BY MR. CANNAN

The Governor: Question number 2 2 .1 call upon the hon. member for Michael, Mr. Cannan.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Industry Board — once more unto the breach, dear sir, once more! Electricity “ All Island” Power Station Scheme — Question by Mr. Cretney Wren Skyships Limited — Application for Government Assistance — Question by Mr. Cannan TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T33

Is the application by Wren Skyships Limited for Government assistance being given early consideration? Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I want to make it clear that I will not be drawn into a discussion on any specific application for financial assistance committed to my board. The matter referred to by the hon. member for Michael has already had premature publicity due to a disclosure to the Press of information we understood to be confidential by someone apparently outside the company and the board. All applications submitted to the Industry Board receive careful consideration. The investigation process can take some time, particularly with large projects.This time scale is not wholely dependent on my board as it is essential that the application data is comprehensive and that any further information sought is provided fully and quickly.

It is not in the public interest that decisions involving major Government expenditure should be made without the fullest consideration and, while we are concerned that such matters should be dealt with as efficiently and as quickly as possible, we cannot allow outside pressures for a quick answer to affect our deliberations.

Mr. Morrey: Your Excellency, in order to familiarise myself with the subject of airships I spent a week at Airship Industries Limited at Cardington last week. They are the only manufacturers of airships at present in the world and I seek assurance from the Chairman of the Industry Board that he will consult fully with the Civil Aviation on several subjects: firstly, that the Isle of Man, and Jurby in particular, be a suitable place to build and develop airships; also that he will pay due attention to the environmental effect of a building the height of a block of 14-storey flats that will appear in Jurby; and I hope he will take due consideration to the feasibility of the project of airships.

Mr. Anderson: If I may answer the hon. member, Your Excellency, I am sure I do not want to deal with specific questions in relation to this but I appreciate entirely the hon. member’s concern and I am sure that our board will take every part of this respect of the question into consideration. But I do not want at this stage to publicly get involved in a debate on the detail.

Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Without covering the ground which the hon. chairman has just covered himself, is the hon. chairman satisfied that he will be able to obtain adequate professional advice on this particular technology on which to base a decision on this application?

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, this is a very difficult question because of the technology which is not widely understood, nor are there many experts on it. But I can assure the hon. member that we will do our best to get to the very bottom of the nitty-gritty on this one.

Wren Skyships Limited — Application for Government Assistance — Question by Mr. Cannan T34 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

DERELICT PROPERTIES — PURCHASE AND REFURBISHMENT — QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY

The Governor: We pass on then to question number 23 and I call upon the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Cretney.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Government Board: Will your board give priority to a scheme for the purchase/refurbishment of derelict properties? Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, in our estimates for the current year the Local Government Board included the sum of £100,000 for the purchase and refurbishment of derelict town centre houses. Unfortunately the item had to be deleted at Budget time but we do have a facility to spend up to £30,000 under the job creation programme this winter for this purpose. This will be something of a trial run and, hopefully, will help us to identify any problems.

As for the future the board has not yet considered its estimates for next year and I would not wish at this stage to anticipate the wishes of my colleagues. However, as a board we certainly recognise the need for investment and Government involve­ ment in the refurbishment of derelict property, particularly in the town centres and it is very probable that we will make a provision for work of this nature for the next financial year.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I thank the hon. chairman for his reply, which seems a little bit hopeful. Just one supplementary: when will the housing survey that has been undertaken by the Local Government Board and the Environmental Health Department regarding the condition of housing be presented to this Court?

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, the housing survey was a survey instigated by my board and the report will be received by my board rather than by this Court, although the information contained therein will obviously be available to members. We anticipate getting the results of that survey within the next few months.

THE RAGGAT — COST OF ESTABLISHING A TIP - QUESTION BY MR. KARRAN

The Governor: Question number 24. I call upon the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Karran.

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Government Board:

What is the total cost to your board of establishing a tip at the Raggatt?

Derelict Properties — Purchase and Refurbishment — Question by Mr. Cretney The Raggat — Cost of Establishing a Tip — Question by Mr. Karran TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T35

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I am at present unable to advise on the cost of establishing a refuse disposal operation at The Raggatt. The board has a planning permission for the site and work is progressing to determine cost the various elements involved. There will in particular need to be improvements to the access and satisfactory drainage arrangements. Work is still going on to quantify what is involved and it is too early to give any sort of an estimate.

What I can say is that there is an item in the board’s capital estimates for a land reclamation refuse site. The figure in 1985/86 under that heading is £200,000 but this includes for the new plant that will be necessary to operate the site and this is a Column 3 capital item and it will need to be the subject of a specific Tynwald approval, so the cost of developing the site will be made known to Tynwald when that approval is sought.

Mr. Karran: I thank the chairman for his reply.

AQUADROME — REFURBISHMENT — QUESTION BY MR. CRETNEY

The Governor: We move on to question 25 and I call upon the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Cretney.

Mr. Cretney: Thank you, Your Excellency, I beg leave to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Government Board:

(1) Why did your board require refurbishment of the Aquadrome rather than replacement on a different site?

(2) When will the refurbishment work begin?

(3) Why are the baths being closed in the meantime?

(4) What will be —

(a) the total cost of the work; and

(b) the cost per month of maintaining the temperature of the water while the work is in progress?

(5) By whom are any outstanding debts or loans repaid?

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, part ‘(1)’ of the question is wrong in suggesting that the board required the refurbishment of the Aquadrome rather than replace­ ment in a different site. What happened in fact was that the Douglas Corporation chose refurbishment rather than replacement and this choice was endorsed by the Local Government Board. The reason for the choice was essentially financial in

Aquadrome — Refurbishment — Question by Mr. Cretney T36 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 that if replacement had been chosen, this would have resulted in a more extensive development giving a smaller pool with fewer facilities.

As regards the remaining part of the question no decision has been made as to when the refurbishment works will commence, but the board has suggested to the Corporation that the work should commence following the end of the 1986 summer season.

The baths were closed as from 2nd October last and the Corporation have advised that the closure as from that date arises from the fact that the Corporation did not budget for the pool to remain open beyond that date. I might add that the board has suggested to the Corporation that the Aquadrome should be kept open for the summer of 1986.

There is no certainty about the cost of the works, but the latest estimate we have is for a figure including fees and inflation of about £2 million.

The refurbishment works include work on the structure of the main pool itself and there is accordingly no intention to keep the water in the pool during the refurbishment work.

The original capital cost of the Aquadrome was met by Douglas Corporation assisted by grants from Government, and accordingly the debt on the capital cost is met in part by Douglas and in part by the Government.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Part (1): would the chairman not deny that the Mayor elect for the town of Douglas stated the very thing that I have got in this first question on Manx Radio a week last Sunday? Part (4)(b) — I apologise for the way I have written this; what I meant was, in the intervening period until such time as the work begins, could the chairman identify the cost of maintaining the temperature of the water to stop any decay or whatever in the tiles and in the surrounding fabric of the pool?

Mr. Callin: A few supplementaries, Your Excellency, if I may, please. Would the hon. chairman agree or disagree that the useful life of a new pool properly constructed could be in the region of 40 years whereas apparently the life of a refurbished Aquadrome pool could not be expected to be more than, say, 20 years?

Would he also agree that the heating and servicing costs of a properly planned new pool would be considerably less than a refurbished Aquadrome pool, possibly in excess of £150,000 per annum?

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I congratulate the chairman on taking the opportunity of denying that this decision has been enforced upon the Corporation.

Following up the supplementary of the hon. member who originally tabled the question, will the chairman undertake, because of the massive cost which is to be placed upon the taxpayer and the ratepayer on such refurbishment, take the

Aquadrome — Refurbishment — Question by Mr. Cretney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T37 opportunity to inform Douglas Corporation that the procedure has been adopted already where all decisions, as the original building decisions, are taken behind closed doors? 1 refer the chairman to the minutes of a meeting that were tabled on 14th August and I quote: “ Motion made by Councillor M. J. Shimmin, seconded by Councillor S. R. Pitts, that the minutes of the proceedings of the Special Entertainments and Publicity Committee as contained in a private report at the meeting held on Monday 5th August 1985 be received and the same be hereby approved and adopted by the Council. An amendment made by Mr. Councillor J. S. Christian, seconded by Mr. Councillor P. W. Kermode, that the following words be added to the motion: ‘with the exception of Clause 1, which is referred back to the committee for further consideration. It was resolved unanimously that the Council do resolve into committee. A discussion ensued, resolved unanimously, that the Council do resume proceedings in Council. Question put on division” and the division shows 11 — 11, and a casting vote by the Mayor of the town in favour of the status quo.

Would the chairman point out to Douglas Corporation, as the ratepayers of Douglas are assumed they are going to be paid 25 per cent, of the cost of such refurbishment or a new pool, ask Douglas Corporation to start putting their minutes clearly so the public of the town and we members of Government will know what is happening in the Island on such huge expenditure? Would he not take up the opportunity as he is at this moment being blamed for a lot of the decision which are being taken by Douglas Corporation, and as he takes the blame, we in this Government take the blame also?

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, can I just say in response to Mr. Delaney that I will certainly take the opportunity when the time is opportune to put the record absolutely straight as to where myself and my board and this Government stand as regards the Aquadrome. I certainly have not read in detail the minutes of the Corporation, but will do so as requested by the hon. member.

Your Excellency, I did not hear the programme on Manx Radio last Sunday, but I do understand that the Mayor elect did in fact suggest that a decision was Govern­ ment’s In fact, I have got a resolution of a Council meeting held on Wednesday, 22nd June 1983, which starts off: “ Resolve that the Council undertake repairs and renewals to the roof and pools of the Aquadrome,“ a decision that the Council made and reported to my board.

We have been working along that policy made by the Corporation and supported by the board until earlier this year, when the Corporation came to the board and said before going into final negotiations they would wish to have another look at the situation, which they did and they reported back to my board just a few weeks ago, telling us that the Council had again resolved to refurbish the Aquadrome. That decision was supported by the majority of my board once again and I do understand the voting was close in the Council but, so be it, the vote is often quite close in this Court as well. The majority said they wanted to refurbish.

Aquadrome — Refurbishment — Question by Mr. Cretney T38 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

I was dismayed, Your Excellency, to find that the pool was going to be closed on the 2nd October this year when repairs could not start at least until the beginning of next summer; it seemed to me an absolute waste of a resource. My board suggested to the Corporation that we should keep the pool in mothballs throughout the winter period if they could not afford to open it so that it would be available for the next tourist season and repairs should not begin until the following October. The Corporation again told us that they did not have any funding for the pool and I suggested to them that they should find the funding to keep it in mothballs for the winter, which means keeping water in the pool basin heated to a temperature to maintain the fabric of the pool basin itself. That cost, I can tell the hon. member Mr. Cretney, they estimate at £6,000 a month, so the cost of keeping it for six months would be £36,000.

It was my view, and still is, that the Corporation should find that sort of funding themselves from within their own resources. We also suggested to the Corporation that, as they have done in the past, they should negotiate with the Local Government Board for rate support for keeping the pool open for the next tourist season. We are still negotiating with the Corporation but I sincerely hope that that will be the situation that does arise.

Mr. Karran: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Would the chairman not agree, especially after I had tabled questions at a previous Tynwald over this issue, that the Corporation is trying to wash its hands of the Aquadrome, and do you not feel that your board would be far better to take over the whole situation? I do not know about any other members of this Court, but I have actually had communications with the Town Hall and I can say that they are less than favourable, they are quite negative and I feel. . . would you institute the taking over of the Aquadrome, lock, stock and barrel?

Mr. Payne: Your Excellency, the chairman has given us figures of £6,000 a month for keeping the temperature of the water up to a reasonable level to main­ tain the structure of the pool. Can he give us figures of the additional costs that the Corporation would have to find in order to staff it and let the public in?

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, before going into recess this hon. Court, after much debate and argument, awarded through your board some £53,000,— the figure which strikes me — for the extra support for the Aquadrome and the complex in general. Now that they have closed it, is your board going to pay that £53,000? As we members for Douglas — I am sure I speak for some of the members for Douglas — feel that having fought the campaign to get extra support the money should be used for the benefit of the people of the Isle of Man and since that debate been put to the Douglas Corporation or what is to happen to happen to that figure? Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, I would like to ask the chairman to clarify something for me because I am very confused. Here we are saying that we are going to keep the baths in mothballs for the winter and open it again next summer. Can he give us a reason why it should be kept in mothballs and why it is not open to the public of the Isle of Man, who can pay their sums of money to go through?

Aquadrome — Refurbishment — Question by Mr. Cretney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T39

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I will endeavour to wend my way through those supplementaries, and perhaps I will start by informing the Court and the hon. member, Mr. Karran, of the future of the Aquadrome as the board see it and as we negotiated with Douglas Corporation and the eastern local authorities earlier on this year. That was that the Corporation should not wash its hands of the Aquadrome, that they were the owners, that I believe in my own mind that they are responsible to a large extent as to the state that the building is in at this moment, that they should not wash their hands of it, they should share with us in the cost of refurbishment, and the negotiation was 25 per cent, for the Corporation, 75 per cent, for Government.

When the pool is put into a decent and fit order it would then be handed over, lock, stock and barrel, to a new combination authority who would run the pool on the same basis as the one in the North and the one in the South. That was ac­ cepted by the Corporation and was accepted by the local authorities of the surroun­ ding district. I still believe that that is the best future for the pool.

As far as the supplementary from Mr. Payne goes — that is, the costings — I cannot tell him how much extra it would cost to keep it open. I can tell him that it is an extortionate amount and I was surprised and I will get the figure for the hon. member.

The cost of £6,000 to keep the pool warm is one of the smaller costs. When we talk about the staffing costs the figure reaches quite large proportions. The swimming pool’s main customer throughout the winter period, as I understand it, is the Board of Education and the Board of Education has made alternative arrangements, so we would have the situation where we would be keeping open an expensive facility that has lost half, or more than half, of its winter revenue. The Corporation themselves told us that if the schools were not going to use the Aquadrome then it would only be used on weekends and occasional evenings and really would be a facility that could well be said to be wasted.

The £53,000 which this Court agreed to give to the Corporation earlier this year — I did endeavour during that debate to explain what the situation was, and that £53,000 was taken into account by the Corporation when they compiled their estimates and set their rate. That amount was taken into account expecting the pool to close on 2nd October, so their argument would be, whether it is accepted or not, that if they required to keep it open it would be an extra cost that would have to be borne by their ratepayers. I would say, so be it, they should pay it. I think that the supplementaries asked by Mr. Maddrell I covered in my earlier replies.

YEAR OF SPORT — VISITORS ATTRACTED TO THE ISLAND — QUESTION BY MR. DELANEY

The Governor: Can we then move on to Question 26? I call upon the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney.

Year of Sport — Visitors Attracted to the Island — Question by Mr. Delaney T40 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Year of Sport Committee: On a recent interview for “Mandate” on Manx Radio on 4th October your organiser estimated that “ over 10,000 people were attracted to the Island during the present year of sport”. Will you give specific details of the numbers attracted to individual events directly connected with the Year of Sport?

Mr. Cringle: Thank you, Your Excellency. Can I say and reiterate the words of the Chairman of the Tourist Board in answering a question earlier this morning in relation to his Events and Attractions Committee — that it is almost impossible to separate exactly identical numbers to any event, and I am sure the hon. member who has tables the question as a previous chairman of that committee is aware of that. However, in trying to achieve some numbers and figures for the hon. member, I can tell him that the number is reasonably accurate insofar as the achievement of 10,000, bearing in mind the difficulty of tying exact visitors to exact events.

If we take the Commonwealth table tennis championships we are aware that there were 425 attending there. We have out special Olympics where we had 8,000 attending that and the Island Games when there was a minimum of 720 definitely attending that. If we take those three items as a starter, I am equally sure — and I think that is an important point to make — that they were brand new visitors to the Isle of Man and we were not in this case relying on returns, and I think largely it is accepted that our visiting tourist traffic is largely on returns and it is good to establish new contacts in new events.

We can go on to the horse/pony world and the mounted games and the dressage where we had close to 100 attending that; basketball tournament 230; Liverpool University came early on in the year, they were here for one complete weekend, they brought 170 people along — a definitive number yet again. In fact, this is one which we are very hopeful will be a recurring one for many years to come. It is a contact which has been made and they are currently working on the weekend for the 1986 season, so again it is a spin-off in that respect. We take all the numbers right down through: women’s international football, 40; we have the Sailing Association who had some 200 people over; we had the International Trim and Fitness Conference where we had 100.1 can go down to such numbers as, for example the bowls where we brought Messrs. Wood and Bryant, the two acknowledged world champions, over; just class that as 4, but it was appended to the Bowls Festival to improve that week and that comes into the events and attractions of the Tourist Board figure. Equally I can give the figures of some 3,000 which are relative to the boxing and the rugby league, both of which I think were given acknowledge­ ment as being successful events as the Charity Shield event which, without the encouragement and support of the Year of Sport,would improbably have gone at all.

So we have a figure and I can give the hon. member a list which takes us to just over 9,000 visitors appended to my list, which gives us a bed night stay — as I said, for example, the special Olympics, where we know that they were on the Island for nine days and some of them have only been here for two days. We take an average

Year of Sport — Visitors Attracted to the Island — Question by Mr. Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T41

of bed night stays and we come to some 37,000 to 40,000 bed nights for the year so far.

Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, with your leave, in view of the considerable of what the expected level of expenditure relates to the promotion of this Year of Sport has incurred?

Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, with your leave, in view of the considerable amount spent on the Year of Sport and the fact that one of its advertised aims was to encourage sport throughout the Island and as it is completely contradictory within such a Year of Sport, that matches between Island schools have been stopped apparently through lack of finance to meet transport costs, would the Chairman of the Year of Sport use his influence to try and obtain the necessary funds, possibly from surplus funds, if there are any, in his own Year of Sport Budget?

Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Bearing in mind and con­ gratulating him on the 10,000 arrivals and equating that to the amount of money which has already been indicated to the Court by the Chairman of the Tourist Board, when you come to your final report will you equate the figures of cost per head of the persons actually brought to the Island for the Year of Sport?

Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, in reply to the questions — the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Bell, on the expenditure to date — I think in this particular case it will be better left to the final report as the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney, is suggesting when we can actually equate the amount. I can say that currently I am envisaging that we will come in under budget figure.

The hon. member, Mr. Gilbey, asking relative to the schools. Certainly the Year of Sport is to encourage sport and I think that it has achieved. I witnessed, for example, the Bryant and Wood for the bowls and I think the bowling fraternity, as it was appended to the bowling festival, acknowledged that that was a considerable success and equally in your own world, sir, the horse world, I think that those people were very well pleased with the dressage and the other events which went on there.

In relation to the cost, influence to the schools, as I have indicated to the hon. member for Ramsey, I think we will be within our budget, but at this stage I do not think that it would be right of me to try to influence the Board of Education by telling them that we should look at any funds as a virement. I think that would wrong from the Year of Sport, but I would equally tell the hon. member that wearing yet another hat as Chairman of the Isle of Man Sports Council, we have already expressed our concern as to the continuance of inter-school competitions.

The hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney — certainly sir, as I have said at the commencement of my reply, it is difficult to equate, but I will certainly, in preparation and replying to Tynwald in the final reply, we will endeavour to give you a cost per head, per bed night, per day stay in the total expenditure for the Budget. Thank you, Your Excellency.

Year of Sport — Visitors Attracted to the Island — Question by Mr. Delaney T42 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. Lowey: Thank you, Your Excellency. Would the Chairman of the Year of Sport not agree that the Year of Sport concept was not just to promote people to come to the Isle of Man to participate in sport but to encourage sport and to improve excellence and a whole wide range of things for the local community and it has undoubtedly been a resounding success?

Mr. Delaney: A supplementary, Your Excellency. Now that the hon. Chairman of the Tourist Board has asked a supplementary about the successes, when you do the equation that I have asked for previously per head of arrivals, would you also take into account the amount of money that has been spent by the Tourist Board on events and attractions as indicated by the chairman’s reply to my earlier question and where we get the equation of what we are paying for people to come to the Isle of Man?

Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, as far as the Tourist Board go and its events and attractions, I am sure that the Tourist Board look very closely at its events and attractions expenditure in relation to what return they get. I am confident of that and I am equally confident that the good liaison which has been between the Tourist Board and the Year of Sport office by having both the chairman and the hon. member for Castletown who is Chairman of the Events and Attractions anyway on the Year of Sport Executive has meant that there has not been any doubling up of funds from one hand to the other and we have been careful to watch that we are not really going over-board on our expenditure, one playing off against the other.

I would certainly take the point which is made by my hon. colleague Mr. Lowey, member of the Legislative Council, that the Year of Sport concept was wider than just bringing people to the Isle of Man. I think I would concur with him one hundred per cent, that in that context it is a resounding success, but equally, I take on board the point which the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney, is making and these things have to be cost effective. In this case, I am sure that it will prove to be so.

MINIMUM FIXED PRICES — QUESTION BY MR. IRVING

The Governor: I would like to move on to question 27, and just ask hon. members if they will keep up the very high standard of the questions related directly to the initial question.I call upon the hon. member for West Douglas, Mr. Irving.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of Agriculture and Fisheries:

In order to reduce the cost of living in the Isle of Man, will you endeavour to abolish the minimum fixed price for eggs, milk and potatoes?

Minimum Fixed Prices — Question by Mr. Irving TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T43

Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, the Board of Agriculture is satisfied that the recent policy decision to introduce minimum fixed prices rather than the previous fixed prices at all levels of the trade for potatoes and eggs is a fair and equitable one.

The absence of fixed prices may or may not bring about a reduction in the cost of living. I think we would have to say that that is at this moment a matter of conjecture. The minimum prices as now determined by the board in consultation with the industry and the Agricultural Marketing Committee — and that particular committee, 50 per cent, of the personnel on it, represent consumer interests — the price would approximate to fixed prices had they still applied and are seen by the board as prices representing a fair and reasonable return to the producer based on the cost of production in the Isle of Man.

Resultant retail prices are monitored in comparison with the equivalent United Kingdom prices in order to try and protect the consumer, and this is when we are fixing the minimum price.

It is the board’s view, supported by both the Manx National Farmers Union and the trade, that the flexibility of the minimum price régime will not only encourage retailers and wholesalers to handle Manx produce but also bring about competition which must increase quality presentation and value for money.

On a point of information, milk is still subject to a fixed price contol. The special nature of the Manx dairy industry with the central creamery responsible for the bulk of milk purchases and sales does not readily lend itself to a minimum price control such as now obtains for potatoes and eggs.

Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, may I ask a supplementary question? Would the hon. chairman agree that despite what has been quoted recently in the Press, at no time have the Board of Consumer Affairs advised your board that they sup­ ported the introduction of minimum prices for eggs and potatoes? Would he con­ firm that the Board of Consumer Affairs have indeed written to your board and expressed their extreme concern?

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Could the hon. chairman tell me which body fixes this price and is it true that it takes 25 people to level a price on potatoes — I wonder, do the potatoes want to become Smith’s crisps?(Laughter)

The Governor: Mr. Chairman, you are not obliged to answer any question which is not strictly in order.

Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, in answer to the hon. member for Council, Mrs. Hanson, the board did have representation from the Board of Consumer Affairs, although I have to say that they did not specifically ask for what we have done for this month of October.

The hon. member for Middle, Mr. Karran and the number pf people involved in the price fixing — well, I have to say it is a cumbersome operation and the total

Minimum Fixed Prices — Question by Mr. Irving T44 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 number involved in this exercise is 11 and the board itself then considers the representations which come from that particular committee.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, a supplementary. Would the hon. member please tell me how fixing a minimum price helps the consumer as he has stated? Surely a maximum price, would he not agree, is what helps the consumer? Minimum prices merely prevent prices going down; maximum prices prevent them going up, and if the hon. member is not prepared to abolish these controls and establish a free market in these products, is he aware that we shall have to initiate a debate in this Court on the matter? (Members: Hear, hear.)

Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, I take the point made by the hon. member for West Douglas. The current regime is fixed under an Act of 1934 and is open to any member to have a go at that particular one if he wishes to do so.

WAR PENSIONS COMMITTEE — DISPOSAL AND USE OF SENESCHAL HOUSE — QUESTION BY MR. DELANEY

The Governor: We move on, then, to Question 28. I call upon the hon. member for East Douglas, Mr. Delaney.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg to ask the Chairman of the Government Property Trustees:

Has the War Pensions Committee agreed the re-allocation of its offices and medical inspection room? If so, what is your board’s proposal for the disposal or public use of Seneschal House?

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, may I say that whilst my trustees have on a number of occasions reached agreement with a sub-committee of the War Pensions, to date the War Pensions Committee have never agreed to the allocation of its offices in the building, although out of the choice of the fourth level or the ground floor level they made a preference to the ground floor level. With regard to the medical room, may I say that the War Pensions Committee have stated that if they are to move into that building they would require a medical room and where it is is quite adequate.

Also, the second part of the hon. member’s question — which states “ if so, what is your board’s proposal for the disposal or public use of Seneschal House?” that supposes that is only that they will be moved if it is with their agreement. That is not the case. Seneschal House is in the hands of an estate agent as notice was given to the War Pensions Committee in March of this year by letter.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, could I ask for a further explanation? The chair­ man has indicated that the property is already in the hands of an estate agent. Can you tell me, has there been a price fixed on an estimate? Is he aware that other

War Pensions Committee — Disposal and Use of Seneschal House — Question by Mr. Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T45 properties in the area have been recently sold — the St. Barnabas church site as an example — and that even my board, which has certain properties where pensioners are at the moment, may very well come on the market and would it not be prudent at least to have held the property in trust until the whole area scheme was planned for, particularly as the Government may very well itself be looking for sites in that area?

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, if I can answer that, could I just state that in December 1984 and on 19th March 1985, I made it very clear to this hon. Court that Seneschal House was to be sold off as soon as the property was vacated and this intention has been made very clear on both those occasions.

I would suggest that the Government Valuer has valued the property and it is in the hands of the estate agents who will then give a price. I have a valuation of £66,000 if my memory is correct; the estate agent will then go for a price and if anything, the value is a value determined by the Government Valuer but of course the market may tend to give a higher price or a lower price.

Mr. Maddrell:'Your Excellency, to the chairman, I will identify myself first: I am a member of the War Pensions Committee, and I want the chairman to state to this Court that the War Pensions Committee have never agreed to move.

Mr. Brown: They have.

Mr. Maddrell: The War Pensions Committee bring in over £1,250,000 of United Kingdom money paid to pensioners who have done their service for their country and the Isle of Man. I think that should be taken note of. But the other thing is that we are having the place sold out from underneath us — there is no alternative, ‘you have got to go.’

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, if I can answer that, it is the duty of the Govern­ ment Property Trustees to provide accommodation for boards, departments and committees of this Government or any other body that comes under that sphere. May I say that the War Pensions are not the only body who did not wish to go down into the new Market Street project and yet, at the end of the day, the Trustees with the concurrence or the awareness of Executive Council have made these decisions in the best interests for the taxpayer and the Government of the Isle of Man.

May I state also that the hon. member, who is now a member of the War Pensions Committee — I can agree that they have never agreed to the move which I have stated in the first reply to the hon. member to this question. At the end of the day the Trustees have got an overall policy to pursue, which was agreed well before I was a member of this Court because of members’ calls to co-ordinate Govern­ ment into one area as far as is possible, and also I would just state that we are not selling the property from under their feet. They were notified in July 1983 of the move and there was then a six-month or nine-month gap before they responded to the Trustees, after which there were many meetings with the War Pensions Committee letters have gone backwards and forwards and they were finally told

War Pensions Committee — Disposal and Use of Seneschal House — Question by Mr. Delaney T46 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

earlier this year of our decision. They were actually told on 8th March 1985 and we have had no further correspondence from the War Pensions Committee until 10th September 1985, some seven months later which then stated their case yet again.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, another supplementary. Could the Chairman of the Government Property Trustees indicate where the lottery employees are to be re-housed as they take the upper portion of Seneschal House? What department of Government or where are they going to be allocated? And has he, even since he made the statement in 1984 when there were members who were not happy with the situation at that time, which you will confirm, he the chairman consider talking to the Government again to see if that property is going to be required in the near or long-term future of the Government?

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, I think it is fair to say that, if I reply to that, we make decisions that are long-term implications and that the property is surplus to use. Anybody can make a case to use any property, and may I remind this hon. Court that the last time my Trustees purchased property in the Buck’s Road area for the long-term planning of Government I had those very questions pointed at me — when were we to get rid of some of our outlying property?

I am carrying through the policy of this Government. May I also state that as far as the lottery office is concerned, the lottery office have to find their own accommodation, on a commercial rate if necessary.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, will the Chairman of the Property Trustees finally concede that the War Pensions Committee are something of a special case and cannot be anomalous to the normal Government departments? Will he bear in mind that for a modest sum of £16,500 per year, which is the cost to the Manx Government for a clerk, the economy of the Isle of Man receives as has already been stated a return in visible income in excess of over £1 million, and will he agree that the accommodation that he is providing down at the new building is not satisfactory, bearing in mind the War Pensions Committee, as its name suggests, is dealing with war pensioners and should have slightly different accommodation to suit a different organisation?

Mr. Callin: My supplementary, Your Excellency, will require a very short answer, and that is, would the Chairman of the Property Trustees state whether or not the Health Services Board agreed to voluntarily move to the new block? (Laughter)

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, at the end of the day we did get the Health Ser­ vices Board who contested very strongly — or, should I say, were instructed they had to move, and I would just suggest that the Trustees have got to take an overall look at the picture; that is what they are appointed for. Could I just make it clear, we have had long negotiations over this problem and the War Pensions made their objections some seven months after they were informed of the move that they did not wish to go on the fourth level of the new development. We then had very long meetings and discussions which gave us a very strong impression that they were quite

War Pensions Committee — Disposal and Use of Seneschal House — Question by Mr. Delaney TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T47

Happy because we had allayed their fears. We then received a letter which was to the contrary, stating why they did not wish to go on the fourth floor. My Trustees then took on board all these points and moved them down from the fourth level to the ground floor which put them right next to the side entrance, which was basically a private entrance, and meant that the pensioners had the disabled ramp, disabled parking, disabled toilet facilities and, to overcome one of their problems, it meant that they could be accompanied up in the lift if necessary.

The letter we received on 10th September, which started the ball rolling again, if 1 may use that term, Your Excellency, states — and I will read this point out, and this is from the Chairman of the War Pensions Committee: “ If it is finally decided that the War Pensions Committee have to vacate Seneschal House, which in our view is ideal in many respects, the committee has the following observations to make. The accommodation offered to the War Pensions Committee on the ground floor is considered quite inadequate.” — this was after long negotiations that they did not wish to go on the fourth floor. “ It is agreed that the move from the fourth level to the ground floor was suggested by you to overcome our objections” — That is so, after very strong representation made by the War Pensions Committee to us “to a situation on the fourth level” , so they were brought down. “ Having now seen the site in an advanced stage of construction the opinion of the committee is that the original situation offered on the fourth level is superior to the ground floor but in no way compares with Seneschal House.”

The next letter we received after confirming our decision — and I think it is important that members understand this; after confirming our decision that they would stay on the ground floor basically because so late in the contract it would cause major problems — after stating that, the letter finishes by saying “The committee wish to make the point that at no stage has it agreed, let alone volunteered, to move to the new building.” We find it quite difficult, accepting the concern of the war pensioners, we find it quite strange that a commmittee which fought so hard to get on the ground floor at this stage fights so hard to get back on the fourth floor and then, after the decision, state now they do not wish to go there yet again at all. While accepting their points we have got a responsibility to the overall body of Government, and the facilities will be more superior than what they have down in Seneschal House at the moment.

Mr. Maddrell: A supplementary, Your Excellency, on a wider note. Seeing that we cannot or it would seem impossible to get through to the Government Property Trustees with the humanity thing, could the chairman agree to building a wall somewhere where M.H.Ks who cannot get through to the Government Property Trustees can go and do a percentage of wailing?

Mr. Cannan: That is right. Hear, hear. (Laughter)

The Governor: Let the Lord Bishop follow that very religious point! (Laughter)

The Lord Bishop: Your Excellency, as a member of the War Pensions Committee for a slightly longer time than Mr. Maddrell, could I say that at no time has the

War Pensions Committee — Disposal and Use of Seneschal House — Question by Mr. Delaney T48 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

War Pensions Committee agreed to move. They are very happy indeed at Seneschal House; it is ideal on so many things. What the Government has to do is to provide suitable accommodation and, in the view of the War Pensions the accommodation offered is not suitable and we would much prefer to remain at Seneschal House.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, may I ask a supplementary? Would the hon. chairman give the Court the figures of the ground area occupied by two people in Seneschal House and something of the cost of heating it during the winter months?

Mr. Delaney: While he is doing that, would he give the ground area of the fine chairmen’s offices in different departments of Government which are usually oc­ cupied by one person?

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, before this gets out of all context, could I say that the Trustees are not just looking at cost — I think 1 should make that clear. We have spent more time, because of our concern with the special nature of the war pensioners, in meetings, our office has been available to the War Pensions than anybody else who is moving into that building. Could I say that we have reached agreement with the sub-committees that we have met of the War Pensions, and that included their chairman. We have reached verbal agreement. Our problem has always been that a week later, when we have received the letter, we have then received a letter saying they do not wish to move in. With respect, we can try and do what we can for anybody. May 1 also state that Seneschal House and the War Pensions Committee were informed by the Government Property Trustees that that was a temporary move until better accommodation could be provided as it was the long­ term intention of Government to get rid of Seneschal House. That was always made clear from the start and I would say that I take exception to the hon. member for Middle who says that the Government Property Trustees do not move or help anybody. The Government Property Trustees, Your Excellency, do more to help boards of Tynwald than any other board in this Court, I would suggest, because we get a lot of things — (Members: Ah, ah!)

The Governor: This question is developing into a debate and is contravening several other of our own self-imposed Standing Orders. I must call it to an end. I believe the question, of which there are two, have both been answered and there is no need for them to be answered again.

That brings us to the end of the Question Paper, hon. members, and with your agreement I would propose that we go on until 1 o’clock and return now to the Agenda, where we have four statements before we come to the motions. 1 would hope that we may get some of those statements concluded before we adjourn at 1 o ’clock.

THE COMMON PURSE — STATEMENT

The Governor: Item number 4. I call upon the Chairman of Executive Council to make a statement relating to the Common Purse.

The Common Purse Statement TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T49

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, the Common Purse Committee has produced an information report in response to part (2) of the resolution of Tynwald in July 1984. This is with the concurrence of Executive Council. As this document involves no change in the agreed policy of Tynwald — that is that there shall be no alteration or amendment to the Customs and Excise Agreement with the United Kingdom before November 1986 — it has been published for public information and discussion following circulation to members. This document will be tabled in Tynwald Court next month — that is, in November.

UNEMPLOYMENT — STATEMENT

The Governor: Item number 5. I further call upon the Chairman of Executive Council, Dr. Mann, to make a statement on the subject of employment.

Dr. Mann: The Employment Committee of Executive Council has met regularly during this year to establish in greater detail the reasons for the annual increase in the numbers of the unemployed and areas of employment which are likely to expand in the coming years. At the same time, two new officers have been trained and appointed by the Board of Social Security to carry out a personal survey of every unemployed person on the register who has been without a job for three months or more. So far, over 400 persons have been interviewed with a view to establishing work skills and aptitude to train or retrain for future employment prospects. The committee have also met many employers of labour during the last few months.

The increase in the number of unemployed is as much the result of the increased numbers added to the total workforce by young persons leaving school as by any total fall in job availability. This was clearly predicted by the forward planning document submitted to this Court in 1981/82. That need to stimulate the level of economic activity, particularly in manufacturing indusry and new service industries, remains. However, as a result of meetings with employers, it is evident that one of the inhibiting factors in expansion in industry as well as some service industries is the almost total lack of vocational training in those leaving school. It is now clear that additional limited importation of highly trained key workers can result in substantial increase in employment of the untrained or semi-skilled. Some unemployment is not due to lack of jobs — we are assured that there are many vacancies at the moment — but lack of training in the workforce to fill the jobs. A trained workforce is a factor affecting the decisions of some companies coming to the Island.

The committee is convinced that the training in basic skills and the extension of job experience programmes results in more long term job placement than any other. The results confirm these facts. It is therefore proposed that job experience programmes should be further extended and a supplementary vote will be moved in this sitting to enable 210 young persons being placed this year. The supernumerary apprenticeships will continue to enable the 35 Government-financed additional

Unemployment — Statement T50 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 apprenticeships to continue. The further work in the development of the College of Further Education should continue as a priority to enable training courses to be extended. The Job Release Scheme has already been extended, with the concurrence of the Finance Board, to those in the 62-years age group where there is job replacement by a younger person. The training centre at Hills Meadow has increased the number of places and types of training and must now develop overlapping courses, as most persons on courses are offered regular permanent employment before the end of each course and there are times of complete vacancy. Special mention must be made of the construction industry. Out of the total number of unemployed, the largest single group relates directly or indirectly to construction. The Treasury staff have been working for some time to produce capital programme of Government building works extending continuously over four or five years, without gaps, geared to fully employ the larger building firms. This has now been achieved and capital works totalling over £9 million will have to be identified for progressing from 1985. In addition, a sum of £3,962,750 was approved in the Budget to complete those projects already started prior to 1985/86. It is hoped that a long-term policy of this type will create the confidence of the building industry necessary to re-establish regular workforces involved in this construction. However, it is recognised that there have been radical changes in the mode of employment of construction workers. Many of these now consider themselves self-employed but register as unemployed when they cannot obtain work at self-employed rates of pay. This abnormally distorts the true number of those available to be employed in the traditional sense in the construction industry. However, the smaller building schemes which result from Government aid to house improvement and the Tourist Improve­ ment Schemes tend to help those self-employed construction workers and the ex­ pected improvement in private sector building associated with new resident policies will also help this group. The survey of individual unemployed people has raised and emphasised several important factors. There is an evident distortion in the number of women really available for full-time work. There is need for quick response to job vacancies and the notification of those likely to be able to fill those vacancies. A micro-computer at the Job Centre could both store the information of those on the register and also quickly inform those persons available; this is being done shortly by the Board of Social Security. The comment that the unemployed want a job, not training, is at once both apparently self-destructive but also expressive of the most difficult matters to solve between the boards — that is, the level of payment during the different forms of training. The financial incentive is to remain untrained at present and some way must be found to reverse this trend. All the boards involved are holding talks as to how this can be done. In the meantime the Board of Social Security can help resolve some of the hardships. The employment situation will be the subject of a further review and report to Tynwald in December.

ENERGY — FUTURE ELECTRICITY REQUIREMENTS — STATEMENT

The Governor: Item number 6. I call upon the Chairman of the Executive Council, Dr. Mann, to make a statement on the subject of energy.

Energy — Future Electricity Requirements — Statement TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T51

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, at the sitting of this hon. Court in February the Energy Committee were requested to consult with the Manx Electricity Authority concerning future generation policy for the Island’s electricity requirements and the viability of the supply by cable from Scotland and report thereon by October 1985. The Energy Committee has met with the Manx Electricity Authority and has had the benefit of the various reports made to the authority on the options facing the Isle of Man relating to the Island’s future electricity supplies. The authority has decided to proceed along a particular course and the Energy Committee supports the authority’s policy. However, the committee feels it would be in the interest of Tynwald to submit a report on the Island’s total energy situation over a wider spectrum, as electricity is not the only area which is giving rise for concern.

The question of coal supplies is again under detailed consideration and for that purpose the committee is meeting the Managing Director and representatives of National Fuel Distributors Ltd. either later this month or in early November to review the Island’s supply situation. Once that meeting has taken place the committee feels it would be in a position to submit a substantive report to Tynwald on the Island’s overall energy situation, including the future of electricity supply and generation. The committee will be giving particular consideration to the possibility of using waste heat from the power station to heat installations such as Noble’s Hospital, reducing Government’s overall fuel expenditure and also providing some revenue to the electricity authority. This would in due course have a beneficial effect on electricity tariffs.

I am therefore reporting to this hon. Court that the Energy Committee anticipate coming to either the November or December sitting of Tynwald with an overall report on the Island’s energy situation which will include a full report on the future of the Island’s electricity supply industry.

MRS. JOAN MANN — PETITION FOR REDRESS OF GRIEVANCE — STATEMENT

The Governor: Item 7. I call upon the Chairman of the Board of Agriculture and Fisheries to make a statement on the Petition for Redress of Grievance.

Mr. Radcliffe: Your Excellency, hon. members will recall that at the sitting of Tynwald held on 18th June 1985, the Petition for Redress of Grievance of Mrs. Joan Mann was referred to my board for such action as was deemed appropriate.

I would say that the petition of Mrs. Mann of Beauty without Cruelty (Isle of Man Branch) sought the introduction of a total prohibition on the importation of skins of endangered species into the Island. The Endangered Species (Import and Export) Act 1981 provides for the implementation in the Island of the convention on international trade in endangered species. The convention which seeks to protect endangered species of wild fawna and flora by prohibiting, except under licenced,

Mrs. Joan Mann — Petition for Redress of Grievance — Statement T52 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

international trade was extended to the Isle of Man and our 1981 Act, which gives effect to our obligations under that convention, is based on corresponding United Kingdom legislation.

Under the terms of the 1981 Act no person shall import into or export from the Island any of the animals, plants or articles listed in schedules thereto except under the authority of a licence issued by the Board of Agriculture. The convention provides an obligation not to issue an import licence unless the issuing authority has satisfied itself that the export of the animal, plant or article has been approved by the competent authority in the country of origin, and the petition contended that the issue of an import licence under the 1981 Act — and I quote “ is condoning the illegal killing by poachers of endangered species and is contrary to the interests of preservation of world wildlife” .

The procedure laid down under the convention ensures that import licences are only issued when the competent authority in the country of origin is satisfied that the animals or plants concerned have been taken legally and that the trade does not represent any threat to the species. All applicants to the Board of Agriculture for a licence to import or export endangered species are referred to a scientific advisory committee established under Section 3 of that Act, and that committee comprises Mr. T. Kind, Director of the Curraghs Wild Life Park, Mr. M. Davies, Chief Veterinary Officer of the Board, Mr. J. A. Bregazzi, Agricultural Adviser to the board and Dr. Larch Garrad, Assistant Keeper of the Manx Museum and National Trust, and that committee will only recommend the issue of a licence if it considers the importation or exportation will not endanger the species.

When considering the licence application for the lynx fur importations specifically mentioned in Mrs. Mann’s petition, the advisory committee obtained evidence that the fur had been legally imported into the United Kingdom and the committee, there­ for recommended the issue of the required licence and the board concurred with that recommendation. Neither the advisory committee nor the board condone the trapping and subsequent killing of any endangered species but when an application is received to import into the Island an item which has been legally imported into the United Kingdom and evidence is obtained to confirm that this is the case, then it is considered that no logical reason can be given for refusing to issue the necessary licence.

It is worthy of note, Your Excellency, that the lynx is now generally regarded by international authorities as not being under threat and the species is not known to be subject to poaching or illegal trapping activity. Indeed, it is understood that the signatories to the convention intend to propose that the lynx found in North America, which was the species, the subject of the licence application about which the petition covered, should be removed from the provisions of the convention as no longer being endangered and it is therefore proposed that the board will continue with its present policy of issuing licences under the 1981 Act.

Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, it is with feelings that I rise because we have had a series — ______i ------Mrs. Joan Mann — Petition for Redress of Grievance — Statement TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T53

The Governor: Mr. Maddrell, would you sit down for a moment please? You know that no statement may be made as a result of this. You may, under certain circumstances, ask a question for elucidation, but I cannot allow a statement. Now, if it is a question. . .

Mr. Maddrell: It is a question, sir, that I am going to ask. A statement has been made here today here and I abhore that statement because I have lost the democratic right of reply and 1 would ask that that be taken into consideration.

The Governor: I hear your question, Mr. Maddrell.

Gentlemen, hon. members, I think we should now adjourn for lunch. We meet again at half past two and the first to speak will be the Chairman of the Finance Board, the hon. member for Peel, Dr. Moore, on Item 8. The Court is adjourned.

The Court adjourned at 1.00 p.m.

EXPORT OF GOODS (CONTROL) ORDER 1985 (APPLICATION) ORDER 1985 — CUSTOMS AND EXCISE ACTS (APPLICATION) (AMENDMENT) (No. 2) ORDER 1985 — CUSTOMS DUTIES (APPLICATION) (No. 3) ORDER 1985 — APPROVED The Governor: Hon. members, we now come, as it were, to the meat of the Agenda and I call upon the Chairman of Finance Board to move item 8.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That — (a) the Export o f Goods (Control) Order 1985 (Application) Order 1985;

(b) the Customs and Excise Acts (Application) ■ (Amendment) (No.2) Order 1985; and

(c) the Customs Duties (Application) (No.3) Order 1985, made by the Finance Board on 18th September 1985 be and the same are hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

EXCISE DUTIES (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 9. I call upon the Chairman of Finance Board. Export of Goods (Control) Order 1985 (Application) Order 1985 — Customs and Excise Acts (Application)(Amendment)(No.2) Order 1985 — Customs Duties (Application)(No.3) Order 1985 — Approved Excise Duties (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved T54 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Excise Duties (Amendment) Order 1985, made by the Finance Board on 18th September 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

VALUE ADDED TAX (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1985 - APPROVED

The Governor: Item 10. I call upon the Chairman of the Finance Board to move.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985, made by the Finance Board on 18th September 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985 introduces into Manx legislation similar provisions relating to value added tax as were introduced into the United Kingdom legislation by their 1985 Finance Act of Parliament. As I think the Court is aware, the Isle of Man Government is obliged to introduce these provisions as under the Customs and Excise Agreement it has undertaken to keep its Customs and Excise law, which includes that relating to V.A.T., in line with that of the United Kingdom.

The main aim of the new provisions is to enforce compliance so that value added tax is collected more swiftly and evenly. Would-be defaulters will be encouraged into line by the prospect of increased penalties and the introduction of interest provisions for the first time. The legislation requires traders to retain records for six years as opposed to the present limit of three years. This will align with the normal assessment limitation period of six years and will also ensure that whatever the frequency of the visit most records will be available. Traders who are persistently late with their V.A.T. payments will, after an initial warning, face default surcharges starting at five per cent, of the tax due and if necessary, hopefully not, rising to a maximum of 30 per cent. A penalty can also be imposed on serious mis- declarations so that substantial or repeated under-declarations of V.A.T. liability or overclaims of V.A.T. refunds will incur a penalty of 30 per cent, of the tax due.

Also for the first time the Customs and Excise will charge interest on tax which is underpaid or overdue. Since surcharges can be levied as the result of delayed pay­ ment to Customs and Excise by a trader, then it would seem only natural that a form of supplement should be required to compensate for those occasions when the department delays payments of a claim and provision for this has been made

Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T55

in the new legislation. So the Customs and Excise department will have to pay interest if refunds or amounts due are unnaturally delayed.

The new legislation, sir, will aim also to, excise the word, de-criminalise many instances of fraudulent evasion of tax by setting up a system of largely automatic civil penalties, but the taxpayer will be protected by recourse to an appeal tribunal. So there is that safeguard in the legislation.

I realise that some of the changes may be regarded as somewhat contentious but I believe that the package is a balanced one that will result in, firstly, more even enforcement; secondly, a situation where the conscientious complying trader is not put at a disadvantage compared to the non-complying trader and, thirdly, I believe it will result in the increased powers for the department being balanced by increases in the rights of the traders.

From a financial point of view it is estimated that approximately £ l ‘/2 million of V.A.T. is overdue at any one time in the Island and it is expected, and certainly hoped, that the new legislation will significantly reduce this amount and improve the cashflow of Government. Your Excellency, I beg to move.

Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I have no objection about the penalties involved in this but I do want an opinion from the hon. mover, where it lays down in the explanatory notes that the provisions confer upon Customs and Excise new powers of enforcement, and I would briefly like to have his definition of what an ‘authorised person’ means in respect to a situation on page 3(a): “Where an authorised person has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed under the preceding provisions of this section, he may arrest anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of the offence.” I wonder, would he give a definition of what an “ authorised person” means.

Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, I am sure hon. members will have done their best to read through the copious volumes of literature before them today but this particular document is one which I would suggest, hon. members, deserves some very close scrutiny.

It was also page 3, the same page that caught the eye of the hon. member for Glenfaba, page 3 was the one which caught my eye but it was subsection (8) which I think members should give very serious attention to and I quote: “Where a person’s conduct during any specified period must have involved the commission by him of one or more offences under the preceding provisions of the section, then, whether or not the particulars of that offence or those offences are known, he shall, by virtue of this subsection, be guilty of an offence and liable —” . I would be grateful if at some stage, Your Excellency, we could have the comments of the Attorney-General on this particular subsection, because it seems to me that we are opening the door for prosecution virtually without evidence, and unless I am seriously mistaken, if

Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved T56 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 a trader was perceived to have recently undergone a dramatic rise in his lifestyle, then according to this somebody can presume that he has done it fraudulently, and I would like to know from the hon. mover what provisions there are to safeguard traders in the Isle of Man against excessive zeal on the part of members of the Customs and Excise staff.

The President of the Council: Your Excellency, this order is evidently the machinery for the compliance for V.A.T. collection and it is based entirely upon the machinery that is applicable in the United Kingdom. I think it is a pity that we did not have an opportunity — we did have some statements this morning from the Chairman of the Common Purse Committee, Chairman of Executive Council on the great document which deals with many of the things under the Common Purse Agreement or the Customs union. But we are really tying ourselves up more and more with the United Kingdom. There are many people in the Isle of Man who would not wish to pursue with the same kind of compliance over V.A.T., in fact they would wish that in certain things they should be free from V.A.T. They would wish at least to be able to decide themselves. This is the important thing.

Self-determination on matters of V.A.T. have been sought by many people and people have been talking not so much about many of the things that are on our Agenda today of a constitutional nature, but the Island is worried about many things and talk about such things as abrogation. Many do not know exactly what they are talking about when they talk about abrogation, but many do know that they are tied up to the United Kingdom and they would wish not to be able to issue free fags or duty-free fags or duty free cigarettes and booze at airports and harbours but wish to be able to have a degree of self-determination over these many things, and here we will get order after order after order from time to time relating to V.A.T. and other matters which are all tied up with this very wide subject of abrogation.

I would hope, and I know that the Executive Council have given much thought to this and it is thought by some that they have hedged it —. ‘Wait until the new parliament comes along.’

Mr. Anderson: Tynwald has already decided that.

The President of the Council: ‘Wait until the new parliament comes along’ That we have already decided says somebody. If it is something that is undesirable I see no reason, and if the majority think it is undesirable which they probably do not, they think this is the easy way home, and I really would like to take this opportunity of saying there are many people in the Isle of Man who believe that we should be exercising our attention very sincerely to looking into how we can have more self- determination in our Government.The House of Keys will be going off in just about a year’s time to face the people and the people will want them to give a message that, if elected, they will seek more self-determination so that they can say, ‘We do not want an army of inspectors to go around to our people who have not paid their V.A.T.’ They may say that. But on the other hand they may say, ‘Instead of sending two men we want to send four men’ but they want to be in a position to dictate what they should do. Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T57

We will pass a lot of these orders during your stay here, sir, and we seem to get an accumulation of these. They go through what we call ‘on the nod’. It is very convenient for us when we know we have got other things to do but really we are tying our Manx people up with the administration from the United Kingdom while there are many of us who wish we might be freed of these ties.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I would hope that the hon. member, my good friend the member of Council, Mr. Nivison, will do his homework on that document before we debate it next month. I do not think we will start the abrogation debate here (Members: Hear, hear.) because I think we want to come forward —

The President of the Council: We are getting a debate next month are we?

Mr. Anderson: Yes. We want to come forward, it was declared in Tynwald, with a Tynwald who are informed of what the implications are on both sides, and I think that that is important. We do not want to get sidetracked today onto that. (Interruption)

But I think that it is important that we do express maybe one or two opinions on this and I am quite concerned that we are going to be loaded now with six years of accounts. I do not want to extend the attic but it gets a bit that way and I really think holding these that length of time is a bit much. I think three years realy is adequate and that part of it I do not like.

I can understand your wanting to get the money in and I hope that you will be just as quick as you say to repay those to whom money is owed.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I support the orders going through because while we have the situation we have, sir, while this Government is still part of an agree­ ment, we are duty bound to carry out the responsibilities and it is not a time for debating abrogation. But when we do come to that I am sure, Your Excellency, as the newcomer to the Court, you will get a full and varied debate. But I hope the Court supports us now. We are in this game and we know the rules. Let us play by them and get this order through.

Mrs. Christian: Your Excellency, I do feel that the Court again should support the order and I think it is perhaps a little simplistic to suppose, by meandering onto the fringes of abrogation, that in future if abrogation did occur we might have any fewer orders or any less contentious issues than this to deal with. (Interruption) In fact it might be necessary under those circumstances to ensure that we had a very strong Customs and Excise section who are given sufficient powers to ensure that our revenue continued to be collected at the level at which it is supposed to be collected.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, could I say that I understand the hon. member for Council, Mr. Nivison’s feelings and it gives me no particular pleasure to have to defend the legislation drafted and passed in another administration, but that is the situation we are in and therefore I will do my best to defend it because, broadly, Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved T58 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

I do support the principle. We are, after all, seeking extra powers to enforce the collection of our taxation from those who have shown that they do not intend to comply with the law. The hon. member for Council, Mr. Anderson, is quite safe. It is not aimed at him and other law abiding, willing taxpayers (Laughter) but at those who are doing their best to fraudulently use the system or to postpone legitimate payment of Manx tax.

In reply to the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Quirk, an authorised person is a Customs and Excise officer in the employment of the Manx Government who holds a warrant from the Finance Board. I do not know if that puts your mind at rest but it does restrict the number of people to whom this power is available. The trader also does have the right of appeal to the V.A.T. tribunal and this is made up of a majority of Manx people, so the appeal procedure is heard by a majority of Manx people. There again that might be some consolation.

On paragraph (8), which the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Faragher, referred to, I too would appreciate the learned Attorney’s correction if I am wrong but, as I read it, the penalties can only be imposed under paragraph (8)(a) or (8)(b) after court proceedings and evidence will have to be produced to prove the case. It will not be done on the automatic word of one person who says ‘Well, I think you were doing it.” The case must be made and it must be shown to the court’s satisfaction that the case is made, not to the Customs and Excise’s satisfaction. I think that is the situation.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, if I am asked to comment on that, the difficulty about V.A.T. prosecutions is that it is very difficult to prove every step which has occurred had been taken by the trader in a whole series of transactions, and this formula is not particularly new. In the Value Added Tax Act as it stands if there is no other conclusion to draw but that an offence has been committed, then it is not necessary always to prove every single step which has been taken by the trader to reach that position.

I would say that V.A.T. offences are particularly complicated. This does not introduce any new principle into the V.A.T. Act and I would underline what has already been said: that the purpose of these changes, which were recommended in the United Kingdom following a v^ry careful consideration of the whole enforce­ ment of V.A.T., was designed to reduce the number of criminal prosecutions and endeavour to enforce V.A.T. collection by civil penalties.

So it is hoped that there will be fewer criminal prosecutions and therefore the number of cases which we will be bringing in the Island also will, I hope, be reduced; that is criminal cases. So I do not think that paragraph (8) introduces anything new to the Value Added Tax Act and, taking the order as a whole, it is intended to reduce the number of criminal prosecutions not increase them.

Mr. Delaney: A question, Your Excellency, on a subject I have raised before in this Court; where a limited company which is registered for V.A.T. goes bust, goes bankrupt and in their accounts they have not got money in for the V.A.T. which has

Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T59 been collected by them on accounts rendered, if that money is no longer in their account is that not misappropriation of funds which belong to the Crown? The Attorney-General: Yes, I hate to comment, Your Excellency, on hypothetical questions of this sort because it is not always easy to get the thing right, rather it is not always easy to make sure one has understood the question correctly. But certainly it is quite wrong for a trader to treat money which he has received as V.A.T. as his own money because it is not. It is money which he collects on behalf of the Crown, and for a trader to treat money which he has collected as his own money is certainly very wrong indeed.

Dr. Moore: I am very grateful, Your Excellency, to my learned friend for his explanation on those points. I agree that hon. members can, understandably, be rather horrified when they find 41 pages with the word ’penalty’ on virtually every line but the spelling out of the details of this sort of legislation is often more off- putting than the legislation when it is put into practice.

But I do take the point which was raised by one hon. member, how do we safeguard the public against excessive zeal? And this is frequently a problem in many Boards of Tynwald. We encourage our officers to do their job thoroughly and effi­ ciently. When they do this they will inevitably antagonise and annoy some people and I think that it is necessary to give them support when they are doing their job legitimately, to encourage them to do their job with as much courteousness and gentleness as possible, but at the end of the day we must stand firmly behind our officers in doing a very difficult job, and I think that our ability to influence the style in which they work is far greater now that they are employed in the Customs and Excise department by the Manx Government than it was when they were employed by the British Government.

I hope hon. members will accept this order as a legitimate attempt to improve our tax collection with a certain amount of safeguards, and also in the knowledge that we are committed by our 1979 Customs and Excise Agreement to following this legislation. I hope I have satisfied some fears and that hon. members will be able to support it, not just because they have to but because they feel that it is overall a reasonable measure.

Mr. Quirk: On a point of clarification, sir.

The Governor: For clarification, yes.

Mr. Quirk: Could I ask if it is a fact that the Boards of Tynwald have the legal power to make an arrest?

Mr. Delaney: Which board?

Mr. Quirk: Any board.

Dr. Moore: I did not quite catch the question, sir.

Value Added Tax (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved T60 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. Quirk: I asked, sir, if it is a fact that a Board of Tynwald has the legal power to make an arrest, which is the question I asked in the first place.

Dr. Moore: The legal power to make an arrest?

Mr. Quirk: Yes.

Dr. Moore: Only by laws and orders approved by this Court. If this Court approves it, then I presume, and again subject to any correction from the learned Attorney, that power is hereby given. But there are many occasions, I think, when officers of different boards do have the power to make an arrest, I think.

The Attorney-General: It is impossible to answer that question in the abstract. Different Acts give different powers to different officials and there is no general power for a board to arrest anyone, no, certainly not. But different Acts give different powers, as I say, to different officials.

The Governor: Hon. members, I now put the motion. Will those in favour say aye; those against say no. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

MANX DECIMAL COINS (QUEEN MOTHER CROWN) ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 11. I call upon the Chairman of the Finance Board.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Manx Decimal Coins (Queen Mother Crowns) Order 1985, made by the Finance Board under the Manx Decimal Coins Act 1970 on 31st July 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

FINANCE BOARD MEMORANDUM — 1983/84 AUDIT FEES APPROVED

The Governor: Item 12. I call upon the Chairman of the Finance Board.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the fees detailed in column 3 o f the schedule re the Finance Board memorandum o f 4th September 1985, for the 1983/84 audit o f the accounts o f the bodies named in the said schedule, be approved by this Court.

Manx Decimal Coins (Queen Mother Crowns) Order 1985 — Approved Finance Board Memorandum — 1983/84 Audit Fees Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T61 notwithstanding that the Audit Act 1983 became effective on 1st April this year, the audit fees for 1983/84 and for 1984/85 remain to be agreed by this Court. In June 1983 the Court appointed Messrs. Pannell, Kerr, Forster as public auditors for 1983/84 at fees to be negotiated at a later date. Details of the fee proposals for 1983/84 are set out in the Public Notice, number 118, which has been laid before the Court. All of the fee proposals have been agreed by the bodies concerned, the individual boards and committees and they have been approved by Finance Board and therefore, Your Excellency, I beg to move.

Mrs. Christian: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

The Speaker: Your Excellency, I want to comment on this. I do not like the procedure at all, I commented on it at the earlier stage and I would like an assurance from the Finance Board that when they do come with these proposals we will know exactly what the fees that are suggested will be at the time of accepting the auditors, as opposed to a postdated approval. There is no reason at all why that could not be done for the future.

Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, despite the fact that these fees have been agreed by the parties concerned they do appear to me to be somewhat generous and I would like to ask, if I may, two questions and one is, are any other firms of accountants ever given an opportunity to compete for any of Government, local government audit work? Is there any reason why the work should be done by one company and how many persons do Messrs. Pannell, Kerr, Forster & Co. employ full-time on Government and local government audit work?

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, in answer to Mr. Speaker, the difficulty in the past has been getting accountants to agree that that is what their fees will be before they realistically know the amount of time that the audits are going to take them, and therefore in the past we have worked on the system of a tentative agreement which can be subject to revisions up or down according to their costing on a time basis. We have departed from this recently on a couple of occasions and I think we now have one fixed tender for local authorities which was — and I reply here to the hon. member for Council, Mr. Callin — put out to tender for the first time this year. I think the Finance Board felt that now we have so many accountancy firms of repute and experience in the Island it was fair to divest some of the account of the audit duties to another firm and we did put it out to tender on this occasion, to a fixed price tender and the lowest tender for the local authority audit in actual fact went to Coopers & Lybrand at a very reasonable amount. So this principle has been accepted and has been put into effect.

The number of people employed full-time, I am afraid I cannot tell you off-hand but it is a considerable workload doing the audit of all central Government, and I think this is one reason why we would feel it was unfair at short notice to say to a firm which had built up a large audit department, ‘From next year you have had it.’ More notice needs to be given and, therefore, we are attempting to have a contract for two or three years, but at the end of that time it can be put out to open tender.

Finance Board Memorandum — 1983/84 Audit Fees Approved T62 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

The Governor: Hon. members, I put the motion. Will those in favour say aye; those against say no. The ayes have it.

LOAN SANCTIONS DETAILED IN GOVERNMENT CIRCULAR NO. 194/85 — REVOKED

The Governor: Item 13. I call upon Chairman of the Finance Board.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the loan sanctions detailed in Government Circular No. 194/85 totalling £514,715 be and the same are hereby revoked.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

REGISTRATION OF PLEASURE CRAFT (FEES) REGULATIONS 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 14. I call upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Harbour Board.

Mr. Irving: Your Excellency, I beg to move: That the Registration o f Pleasure Craft (Fees) Regulations 1985 made by the Harbour Board oh 24th July 1985 under section 2(2)(b) o f the Registration o f Pleasure Craft Act 1974, be and the same are hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

EXTENDED YOUTH VOCATIONAL EXPERIENCE PROGRAMME — ADDITIONAL EXPENDITURE APPROVED

The Governor: Item 15. I call upon the Chairman of Executive Council.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to move:' WHEREAS in the Budget on 21st May 1985 Tynwald approved of the expenditure by Executive Government of £500,000 on the Job Creation Programme.

Loan Sanctions detailed in Government Circular No. 194/85 — Revoked Registration of Pleasure Craft (Fees) Regulations 1985 — Approved Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T63

AND WHEREAS £300,000 of this sum was allocated to the Youth Vocational Experience Programme. AND WHEREAS the total cost of an extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme is now estimated to be £383,500 in 1985/86. NO W THEREFORE Tynwald authorises the Treasurer o f the Isle o f Man to apply from the general revenue of this Isle during the year ending 31st March 1986 a sum not exceeding £83,500, being the additional amount required in the current financial year, such sum to be in addition to the amount voted by Tynwald on 21st May 1985. A revenue vote of £500,000 for the Job Creation Programme was approved by Tynwald at the May Budget. Of this amount £200,000 was allocated to cover the direct cost of 35 supernumerary apprentices employed by local authorities and Government boards, and to meet expenditure on winter works schemes completed in 1984/85 but not paid until 1985/86. The balance of £300,000 was earmarked for the Youth Vocational Experience Programme. During the current financial year the amount necessary to fund the provision of 160 places for young people under the Youth Vocational Experience Programme for the six months to 30th September 1985 was £161,000.

Having reviewed the effectiveness of this scheme over the two years it has been in operation and particularly having noted the gratifying response from employers to this method of introducing young people to a working environment at a time when employment opportunities have been limited due to economic circumstances, the Industry Board has sought funds to enable it to be continued and expanded during the forthcoming winter. Plans have been put forward seeking financial provision to enable the programmme to be operated at its estimated full capacity. These would involve the equivalent of 201 places being filled throughout the six- month period at a cost of £222,500. In view of the success rate which has been achieved by this scheme in ultimately placing participants in full-time employment, the Finance Board and Executive Council have agreed to support these plans.

As I stated earlier, the amount allocated to the Industry Board out of the job creation vote approved by Tynwald in this year’s Budget was £300,000. The total cost of the youth vocational programme during 1985/86 in its proposed expanded form will be £383,500 and Tynwald’s approval is therefore being sought for a supplementary vote of £83,600 for job creation this year.

In future it is intended that the Industry Board will include provision in its own annual estimates for the financing of the Youth Vocational Experience Programme as part of its overall training operations and it is proposed, therefore, that in the next financial year we also operate at the full capacity. I beg to move.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I welcome this resolution. Unemployment is undoubtedly one of the worst scurges to hit this Island or any other place. Of course

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved T64 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

I recognise, as will every other member of this Court, that, as has been mentioned elsewhere, among the unemployed there are some people who are either unemployable or will not work. There are those who are claiming unemployment benefit who are actually doing a part or full-time job. But I am convinced that such people make up a minority, and I stress, a minority of those on the unemployment register and that the vast majority of people on the register do want jobs and are more than willing to work, and that for them unemployment is a personal tragedy not only in financial terms but in terms of the frustration, rejection and boredom that it brings. Therefore, after the maintenance of law and order, I believe that this Government is right in having the reduction of unemployment as one of its main priorities.

There is, of course, no simple answer to providing more employment but only a range of policies, many of which are already being taken. The Chairman of Executive Council has mentioned some of these in his statement before lunch and rightly dwelt on training. But above all I believe that help is needed for those who have the most difficulty in finding jobs the unskilled, and particularly the young unskilled who have had no experience of work of any kind, and this is clearly shown by the analysis of unemployed and job vacancies by trades. As at 2nd October this year the biggest class of male unemployed were general workers and labourers, with no less than 333 people on the register. Against this at the same date there was only one job vacancy for that class of worker. Another big class of unemployed was the miscellaneous one, showing 109 males and 38 females against only six job vacancies. Again there were 120 male drivers and four female drivers with no job vacancies.

As I have mentioned in this hon. Court previously, each unemployed person, apart from the tragedy to that person, costs the Government at least £2,500 a year in terms of benefits and revenue lost from taxes and duties that would otherwise be paid. I therefore believe that a sum per job of less than this should be used in the form of a tax incentive for the private sector to provide employment for unskilled people. What I have in mind is a type of selective employment tax in reverse. I would suggest that every employer, whether an individual, an unincorporated business or a company should have their tax bill reduced by, say, £1500 per annum for each full year that they employ an additional unskilled worker or young worker under 25 compared to the number they employed at, say, 1st April 1986. Such a rebate should be guaranteed for a period of, say, five years. The scheme would be relatively easy to check through each employer’s regular returns for N.H.I. and tax purposes. In order to avoid distortion in the economy as well as the need to help those in the group that need the greatest help, the unskilled, the rebate should be confined to workers under 25 or those without vocational training. Obviously the finer details of such a scheme would have to be worked out by the appropriate part of Government.

However, I do believe that it has advantages. It would hopefully reduce unemploy­ ment. In particular it would help those who have the greatest difficulty in finding jobs. At the same time, however, it would save the Government money, for each job so created would only cost £1,500, say, a in tax rebate compared to the cost Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T65

of each unemployed person, which we know is over £2,500 a year. Therefore I move the amendment in my name, that to the resolution before us, which I warmly welcome, should be added at the end the words :

Whereas job creation is one o f this Government’s main policies, Executive Council is requested to ask the appropriate board or committee to consider proposals for providing tax incentives to encourage employers to provide additional jobs for unskilled workers and those under the age of 25, and report back to the January sitting of Tynwald.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I rise to second the hon. member’s amendment to the resolution because I see no harm in it. We want all the ideas we can get and 1 now sit on a committee which has responsibility and which reported back this morning to the Chairman of Executive Council. I see no harm in looking at an idea. Also I see no harm in several ideas.

The hon. member for South Douglas this morning touched a very touchy subject of derelict properties in the Island. We heard from the Chairman of the Local Government Board that his board wants to look and is prepared to spend money and I hope on compulsory purchase. I see a possibility of an employment scheme, experience scheme, for young the people, who some day will be married and have responsibilities, hopefully own their own homes, repairing their own homes, and decorating their own homes, doing the bits and pieces we all have to do in our own properties, and while they are waiting for us to create the jobs, the permanent jobs, it would be a worthwhile exercise if compulsory purchase in each of the con­ stituencies, to give the young people, who have no need to travel outside while they are unemployed, we could then take them on to give them some experience of doing these necessary jobs on these properties and learning some semi-skills of the plumbing required, electrical work, decorating, all this on these properties in the area, under the supervision of some of the very fine small firms we have in the Isle of Man in construction business. That is another idea which followed on from the question by the hon. member for South Douglas. What is wrong with giving that experience to our young people, rather than hanging on street corners?

These ideas should be put forward and I have no worry at all about the amend­ ment because it is another idea from members, and that is what we are here for: to put forward policies. If it is practical, let us look at it. I hope the Court supports the hon. member and I hope that we have none of this ‘Well, we did not think of it and you did, therefore we are not supporting it.’ Let us give the hon. member a chance to get this in front of us and if it is not possible we will throw it out then. But let us at least look at the idea. I support the amendment.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I share entirely the hon. member for Glenfaba’s concern about the unemployed, but I am concerned about the unskilled young people that we have got. The mistake that we have been making in the past is that we have put winter works schemes and inevitably the best young people are chosen for those winter works schemes, they go on to those jobs and they are back on the circle again the next year because they have not been trained. I believe that it is imperative that

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved T66 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 we train every one of our young people not to remain in that low earning circle but to become high earning people and be given a skill.

A lot of the difficulty has arisen where we have an opportunity to go forward and shall we say they are able to earn £80 instead of going onto a scheme where for six months they only earn £34. But at the end of the day they have the opportunity to go on hopefully and earn £110 or £120 and to me, with the best will in the world, I think the hon. member for Glenfaba will again be diverting the people that we should be training onto the wrong treadmill and leading them down the wrong path. We have the opportunities. We have them now for people and the skills and the hon. Chairman of Executive Council explained this morning how before our last course had completed at the training centre all the people had been taken up by industry. We want to get those people into that, and please do not divert them away from somewhere else that there is a dead end for them for the rest of their lives.

Maybe some people, and this is another difficulty I see, will have a tax advantage by taking somebody on and they probably could have taken them on anyway and were going to take them on anyway. It is very difficult to determine who would have been taken on as extras over and above that which would have been done if the scheme had not come in, and I think there are great difficulties.

Please let us try and train these people in to doing a worthwhile permanent job in which they can have some future and not get £3,500 but hopefully £6,000 or £7,000 a year.

The Governor: Before I call upon the hon. member for Ramsey, Mr. Cain, there is just one question of clarification from the Chairman of Executive Council.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I think we ought to make it clear, hon. members, that what we are talking about in this scheme is a payment to individual people, unskilled, of £36 a week which, in the scheme which we have just put forward and are proposing in this resolution, means a contribution to the employer of £1872 a year. I think members ought to realise that that is what we are moving at the moment and, seeing that in relation to your proposal, I think you will find that what we are proposing is actually a better support for employers taking additional labour than the scheme that is being proposed.

Mr. Cain: Your Excellency, one month I sit with the hon. member for Council who last spoke and the hon. member for Council, Mr. Lowey, and we wrestle with this problem and it is a problem and it takes some wrestling.

I believe that we have to recognise that the root cause of modern unemployment has been technological change, whereas 20 years ago there were a great number of jobs of a semi-skilled or unskilled variety not merely outdoors but in offices, think of the armies of clerks that we used to have 20 years ago, and the fact is that modern technology has removed those jobs. At the same time, however, it has created new jobs and it has created a great many new jobs in all sorts of different fields.

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The typist of yesterday is redundant but the word processor operator is in great demand. We have to recognise that fact by our attitude to training.

I do not believe for one minute that providing tax incentives will encourage employers to provide additional worthwhile jobs. What it would do would be to encourage a number of employers to enter into what I can only describe as tax avoidance schemes, at great cost to our revenue and with absolutely nil value to the youngsters whom we are trying to get started in life.

Much more important for us is to recognise the fact that the economy of the Isle of Man is growing and it is creating jobs, but it is not creating jobs for which our young people are trained. You only have to look at the statistics on work permits to realise that every week there are people coming into this Island to take up jobs for which there are no Manx people skilled to do that work. Therefore we have to look at training as the vital factor for curing unemployment. I believe very strongly that the course upon which the Government is presently embarked is the right one. It is a long-term problem. There are no short-term solutions but we have to create training opportunities and, probably more important than anything else, we have to create a framework where it is financially attractive for the unskilled and the young unemployed to take training rather than stay on the streets, the fact is at the moment that it is working the other way round, and anything that we do that maintains unemployed people in their present level of training, their present unskilled state, is damaging to not only those people concerned but the interests of our economy as a whole.

Mr. Bell: Your Excellency, I will be very brief. I accept wholeheartedly the arguments put forward by my hon. colleague about the overriding need for training. I also welcome very much this resolution that is before us today. But I would like the hon. Chairman of Executive Council to perhaps take this opportunity to clarify one other situation which appears to be arising, and certainly one which has been brought to my attention by several people already, and that is the position of the existing winter works schemes or the expected winter works schemes which have not materialised this winter. It is all very well, we have heard very fine words about training the unskilled upwards to get them into profitable jobs, but this training is going to take some time and in the meantime the Government still has to fill in with these winter works schemes as stop-gap exercises to give the unemployed a certain amount of hope, if only to tide them through the winter. My own area, as I have repeated many times here, Ramsey and the North is very badly hit by unemployment. We have the worst unemployment on the Island and yet we have no recognised winter works scheme to alleviate that situation for this winter, either through the local authorities or through any Government department. What I would like the hon. chairman to tell us today is whether or not in any way this Job Creation Programme that has been put forward here is at the expense of the winter works schemes, whether it is the intention of Executive Council to come back later on with further proposals to assist winter works schemes this winter and also, arguing my own corner, whether or not the Executive Council would look at the position of Ramsey as a special case if there is no intenion to continue winter works schemes this year and give Ramsey special assistance to help it over its existing problems.

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Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, I would just like to really add on what has already been said to some degree and that is the point about what is important, which is the production of our people getting better skills and bringing them up instead of just leaving them as unskilled people and having to import people who are skilled.

But may I again say that while I am very supportive of the Youth Vocational Experience Programme, I am still very concerned that we have young people leaving school and for the sake of an extra £10 a week are having to go on the unemployment because of the restriction, if that is the right word to use, on the vote for the youth vocational experience scheme. We have young people who leave school, get into a rut after six months or more of receiving unemployment benefit, of getting up at 10 or 11 o’clock in the morning instead of having to go out to work, who have nothing much to do and, quite honestly, we could and should be providing more youth vocational experience even if it is only for that period of the year, and I think that should be something that should be looked at when they leave school.

Mr. Delaney: Teach them how to look after themselves.

Mr. Brown: I also feel that I would raise a point which I have already raised with Executive Council, which I am concerned about, and that is the point that we have people who want to go on for further education who are unable to get assistance and in some cases going on the dole to receive some form of income because they are not eligible for any grant or anything at all from the Government and that to me seems an absolute nonsense, and I know that the chairman and Executive Council are looking at this as a matter of urgency but, quite honestly, these are the sort of things that are adding to the unemployment list, that are robbing opportunities for our young people to actually learn more and there are two things here: there is a short-term problem and a long-term one.The short-term is to provide jobs for unskilled in the shorter period and training and re-training and also to get our younger people, our up and coming generation, better qualified, more highly skilled and so on. and I think this is where we have to look at and this has to be our priority.

1 would just say to the hon. member who moved the amendment that while his scheme sounds all right, and I am not knocking the idea which, with respect, did not have to be an amendment; it could have actually been put in letter form, I would have thought, to the committee, the £1500 rebate each year and he said for each additional unskilled worker taken on, I would take it that every year they would pay this fellow off and take another unskilled person on and so on and so on, so, in fact you are not having that problem.

I hope that we can do all we can to help lift our skills so that we do not have to import people, we can use our own people because that is what is important.

Mr. May: Your Excellency, I think most members of this Court will be delighted to see this resolution before us this afternoon, but I think there tends to be a little bit of confusion with regard to the amendment proposed by my friend from Glen- faba, the hon. member Mr. Gilbey. I do not feel that Mr. Gilbey’s amendment

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detracts in any way from the resolution that is before us this afternoon. What he is asking is for the relevant committee, the appropriate board, to look into this situation and look at the possibility. He is not asking for a concrete resolution, a financial resolution. He is asking for it to be investigated, for the relevant board to have a look at the nuts and bolts and the operation and to see whether his suggestion can work or not. That in no way detracts from the Job Creation Programme as it is at present. From what Mr. Gilbey said in his remarks he anticipated that this would apply from 1st April next year, so therefore it would be investigated with a view to being included in next year’s Budget provisions. 1, along with my colleague from East Douglas, see no reason whatsoever to reject Mr. Gilbey’s amendment. I think it is a worthy amendment and it is worthy to see that members of this Court are coming forward with suggestions for some way of tackling the unemployment problem.

Let us remember, Your Excellency, it is very well to say that there are vacancies in skilled trades. There are vacancies in skilled trades. We are all well aware of that. There are also many members of our community who, for one reason or another, will not be capable of taking vacancies in skilled trades. Let is also cater for them. I will support Mr. Gilbey’s amendment, I think it is to be commended.

Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, I well remember when I first came into Govern­ ment that the boards would sit down every year and they would try and form up a list of works or jobs which we termed winter works. 1 think over the last two years we have changed direction a little. We have found that we were lacking, when people came into the Isle of Man and asked us did we have people of experience who could work in their firms, and we could not go down to the job office and we could not supply them and that situation still arises today. The people who are coming into the Industry Board, which the chairman can guarantee me, ask ‘Have you got this type of person?’ and the answer is ‘No.’ and that is against us getting a new firm in because they can go somewhere else; there is plenty of unemploy­ ment in the world.

We no longer now call ourselves the Unemployment Committee. We call ourselves more positively the Employment Committee. Our job I think is to pick up the young people from their schooling, which the Board of Education are interested in starting them off before they leave, then putting them into the job creation and the job experience works and giving them the talents that they need to go out and work for the people that we have in the Isle of Man, the industrialists or, if it is the girls, they go out to machinery or they go into stenography of some kind. I think really that is the way this Court decided they were going to go ahead, and I think today that this is what we have laid down in the Employment Committee, that this is the way we see it and I hope you will give it your support.

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, I feel that the youth vocational scheme is one of the few schemes that this government has surpassed anything that the adjacent island has ever done. I remember as a newly elected member of the Board of Education, when this was coming to the Board of Education, and at welfare one of the members turned round when we were talking about wage structures and that

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved T70 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 saying “ Well, my brother was earning five shillings a week when he was serving his time and he was doing well, members, because most people were on 4/6’. I feel that any moves with this amendment of Mr. Gilbey’s will be counter-productive. The youth vocational scheme is an excellent scheme. It is better than the scheme across the water. The scheme across the water, the Y.O.P. scheme, was so badly abused that even the Tories, who are pro-employers, had to tighten up the regulations on that scheme. So I think they deserve a pat on the back.

The only thing I would like to say on this resolution is that I hope that Executive Council takes my letter that I sent seriously, that after a youngster has left school more than six months, that every youngster after six months of leaving school we should have some sort of training for. I am afraid that 160 places is very good, it is a step in the right direction, but I am afraid it is simply not good enough. As maybe the youngest member of this Court I still deal with a lot of young people. I have sent quite a few down to the youth vocational scheme, to get them on the youth vocational scheme or down to the engineering courses and that, and quite a few have been turned away.

I feel that we should support the present resolution and throw the other one away as it is not a positive move. If we want a positive move Executive Council should say ‘Right, over the next two years we will get the retirement age for men down to 60’. We should set up grants for mature students over 18 or 19 wanting to go to the college of further education to further their education, because at the present time there are not many of the courses that do have a suitable grant. That would be another way of helping things, and also I would like the Executive Council to seriously consider coming up with some sort of scheme where we can help one-man bands with, say, £1,000 or £2,000, that is, if somebody wants to set up window cleaning or something like that — I know it is a trivial thing — but to help pay for his ladders. I think this is another thing that would be . . . It is small; it is not very big, but 1 do ask the members to support the present resolution. The youth vocational scheme is something that we can pat this Government’s back for.

Mr. Delaney: Norman Wisdom could be the training officer!

Mr. Duggan: Your Excellency, I think we are only tinkering with the situation. I welcome the moves here today for extra money, but on the other hand I think it is very much adequate. I feel that I would really like to know what has happened to the winter works schemes because, like the member for Ramsey, Mr. Bell, I have had numerous enquiries from people, people who have got to support families and if they do not get work, like in the past they got work with may-be the Harbour Board or the Highway Board, they are going to end up going to Mr. Delaney’s board here and want a handout. Surely it is better giving the people work. So I feel this sum is totally inadequate.

A year ago I also mentioned regarding the doing up of derelict properties; in Douglas alone and in many parts of the Island there is very much a problem with derelict properties. These could be refurbished. It would create an awful lot of work for the building trade and definitely house some of the 350 people in Douglas off

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T71 the housing list. These are the sort of things we should be doing because I think we are only tinkering with the situation of unemployment.

Another point Mr. Callin and I have raised many times is the Marine Drive. We could utilise an awful lot of people out there. Many members laugh about this, but these are the sort of things we should be doing. I do not think we are doing enough, personally.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, it all comes down at the end of the day to cost and can we afford it? As far as I am concerned I am in full support of this resolution on the Agenda paper in front of us. I think the training schemes are very worthwhile and at the end of the day, if there is a solution to the unemployment problem, it must be in training people for potential jobs and then attract the employers to employ them. I can accept the amendment by Mr. Gilbey. It is very simple. It is a suggestion, as the hon. member, Mr. Delaney, said, and all suggestions can be thrust upon the committee. It is not a new one, though, and all it is saying is that Government should support the private employer to the tune of £30 a week to take on unskilled labour onyoung people, all very fine. But there is a very great problem with it, and the world of economics confuses me greatly but I do know that there is a danger of overmanning our local businesses. We need new employers, more employers, not just thrusting the workforce on our existing employers because at the end of the day when the support schemes come to an end, as they surely will, those businesses are left in a situation where they cannot compete and if they cannot compete they will not produce profits, they will not produce taxes — It is that big wheel — Government then does not have the resources to fund the problems it faces. So there are very inherent dangers in the suggestions that have been made, but let us have suggestions.

Mr. Payne: Your Excellency, you will have to forgive my cynical attitude in saying I have heard it all before. I know everybody in this Court wants unemploy­ ment to be zero, but what have we done about it?

Mr. Duggan: Nothing.

Mr. Payne: We have got a Job Creation Programme. We have done something, I am going to go through what we have done. We have a Job Creation Programme where we employ people to do jobs that really do not need doing, we do. We employ people on boards of Tynwald to do jobs that we do not really need them to do because we have machines to do them. Is this right? Is this the way to solve unemployment? It is just putting it off to the next day. That it all that it is doing.

Obviously training is one of the things that we have to do and we are doing. I applaud the committee for what they are doing. We are training, but we are training people for jobs that . . . There will never be jobs in the finance sector to employ our people. They have not got the skills to be employed in the finance sector now.But if they had the skills there would never be sufficient jobs there for them to be fully employed in the finance sector. So we have to then go to industry. What are the

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Industry Board doing? — a lot. They are trying very hard to attract industry to the Isle of Man and attracting industry, industries coming, industries going. In fact I think we are standing still, not because of their efforts. They are trying very hard to get people here. I wonder are we going about this the right way?

Before I say what I am about to say I will declare I am not a member of the Communist Party nor am I a socialist. But I wonder should we be looking at it in a different manner altogether? (Interruption and Laughter) Surely it is not beyond the wit of our economists, of our Industry Board, of our Employment Committee to say certain things. I will ask the questions. Could we declare that we will not have any unemployment, none at all, that nobody is unemployed? Could we do that? Could the money that we pay them in dole be put to another fund? I am ask­ ing the questions to see if anybody can come up with the answers. Anybody that is out of work should be employed by the Government in creative work. That is most important and that is where I want the wit of our economists and our Industry Board to say, ‘Now look, surely there is a product that somebody wants that we could produce.’ I am asking the questions. We have gone through the rest of it. We have provided jobs that create nothing, trimming hedges that do not need trimming and doing things like that. Let us try to look at it from another point of view. It is not as revolutionary as it sounds. We are a very small community. It is time we did something.

Mr. Morrey: Your Excellency, we talk about re-training people and job creation. Surely the time to train these people is at a much younger age. This is a job, really, for the Board of Education. We should be training people in useful subjects, not keeping them on longer at school to teach them things they do not want to know anyway. We should be teaching practical subjects so that they can go along and they know something when they get to the stage of employment, instead of waiting till they have had education and then trying to re-train them to do something else. We should start at the bottom as we mean to go on and turn them out from the initial education knowing something.

Mr. Speaker: Your Excellency, I regard this debate as indicative of a stagnating economy, indicative of Government without any real policy, because today we are debating how we can get people to train for jobs without any indication whatever of where those jobs are going to come from. We have no —

A Member: They are there now.

The Speaker: You say we have now. All right, where are you getting the people to fill these jobs now? You tell me how many work permits you have authorised to fill them. No-one objects here to work permits being issued to fill jobs if they cannot be filled locally. Why are they not being filled? There are plenty of people across who would willingly come here to work. I have no objection if they come here to work to get our industry on the road. I would like a bit more information as to these jobs that are going to settle once and for all our unemployment problem. Frankly, I do not believe they exist to that degree.

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Now, Your Excellency, the point I want to make is that first of all we work, as I say, from a background of having no real Government policy and then on to a stage where our own administration is grossly inflated and a burden on the tax­ payers of the Isle of Man. Waste throughout the whole of our economy, waste in the administration of boards, in the utilisation of equipment. In every aspect of the whole of this administration you will find an atmosphere of waste and very little indeed is being done about it.

To provide jobs for these people that we are referring to this morning, these young people, you are not going to find them in the traditional industries of agriculture that cannot afford to employ any people at all today. You are not going to find them in the tourist trade that is on its knees at the moment just trying to scrape along. Where are you going to find them? You are not going to find them in industry to any marked extent and I challenge the Chairman of the Industry Board to say so, because no-one is going to come into this climate of high energy costs and of high transportation costs because there is no question that this Court, as it always does when the issue, is down, runs away from the issue and it failed to tackle the Steam Packet issue (Members: Hear, hear.) and try and put some vitality into tourism and into industry. Oh no, that was not the policy of the day. Mediation was the policy of the day and what have we got at the end of the day? A crisis, really, nothing more nothing less.

I would say that in addition to these things we have the chirping of the trade unions that is so ridiculous as to be another factor in offsetting interest on the part of potential employers, and it is as well the workers of the Isle of Man recognise this fact because the reality to anyone else is there to be seen. Put all these factors together and you have no climate for employment in the Isle of Man today and it is up to Executive Council, I believe, to examine not only issues such as the one before us, which I support, the thoughts of the hon. member, which I support, but to really get to grips with creating a climate for employment so that people will be willing to get out there and take up the labour on the Manx market and create the sort of conditions that we have all talked about and, frankly, done nothing about for the last four years.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, on a point of clarification, I would like to respond to Mr. Speaker by pointing out to him in the hearing of many witnesses in this Court one of the big engineering firms said they would be prepared to put on a full shift of people at the present time, an extra shift, if those people were available. That is only one.The others you can look at the adverts in last week’s paper and they are not getting the response from them.

The Speaker: And look at the unemployed at the moment, 2,000-odd.

Mr. G.V.H. Kneale: Your Excellency, several speakers have made reference to vocational training and the lack of training of people leaving schools. As a member of the Employment Committee of Executive Council and also as Chairman of the Board of Education I have put forward the suggestion, that as we are turning people out with qualifications which do not seem to suit what the employers want, we should

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved T74 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 have the employers in, and we have started this and we have had a series of meetings bringing the employers in, to tell us what they require so that we can co-ordinate effort in the right direction. The hon. member, Mr. Anderson, the chairman of the Industry Board, has made reference to a firm that is prepared virtually to double their workforce on the Island, and have virtually been instructed by their people across to do so, but whereas they can get plenty of unskilled work and plenty of semi-skilled work they cannot employ these people unless they get the skilled workers. I have already started discussions with them in the Employment Committee and I have asked these employers to carry on their discussions with me afterwards, to see how we are going to provide the skilled work because they do not want the skills to be too high. This is the trouble. One minute we are being asked to produce more and more highly skilled and we start courses to produce the highly skilled and it is an intermediate skill. They want people in this category who have virtually served their apprenticeship at the trade and are happy to work on the factory floor but have got no ambition to go further, and for every one person of this category they can get they tell us they can employ seven semi-skilled. The potential in this direction is quite great but, as the hon. Mr. Speaker has said, looking at the total workforce, it will probably be only a small proportion of the people that will be involved. On the other hand it could be one, two, maybe 300 people involved.

My whole intention is not to be producing a host of painters, for example, when there is no work for painters. I am hoping that we can co-ordinate effort between the schools, the college and the employers so that they tell us what they want and we try to produce the goods.

The hon. member, Mr. Morrey, made reference to children being kept at school longer. I agree that if we are going to keep them at school longer simply to give them an extended or a watered down form of the academic syllabus we are just wasting our time, and that is why now City and Guilds training has been introduced into all our secondary schools, co-ordinated courses have been arranged to tie up between the secondary schools and the college of further education and the number of younger people who are now going to the college of further education for their training is increasing. We are trying to co-ordinate the effort so that we are producing people with the right vocations to meet the work that is available.

Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, just very briefly, sir, 1 keep my eye on the clock and I know how time is getting on. May I just say a few words?

First of all may I say that I fully support this scheme, no doubt about it I believe it should be more. At the same time it does a very good job. It does train and re­ train people for employment. That is one point, the biggest point, and I am glad to hear that employment is being created for these people. That is an excellent point too.

I do feel, sir there were one or two comments made here today about the productivity of Government and Government boards. This, I might say, may have a disastrous effect on employment along the line because it is the present policy of this Court, the policy of the Government, that Boards of Tynwald should not

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T75 compete in private industry and I can tell you this, sir, that if you are going to make a change in making boards productive, then they must be allowed to compete with private industry as well and this will create I think a great deal of employment because Government boards can compete, and it has been shown, more than favourably with private enterprise.

May I just say that I rise mainly to make a plea for the self-employed person, the self-employed person who has very little hope sometimes of getting into the employment stream, and I am talking now about the skilled self-employed person, and one of the greatest inhibitors that they find is that they cannot get a workshop, a small place to operate from and this is something I would like to seek the Industry Board support, the self-employed person, the skilled tradesman for whom we all had a great deal of respect. I can remember, and it was quoted at the seminar last night, that 50 empty buildings are at present in Michael and I take very much the point by the hon. member for South Douglas, Mr. Cretney, that there are a lot of derelict buildings about that could be used for the purpose of having little workshops about the place.

May I just say that St. John’s — and perhaps this is not an adequate example because we have an historic village there — at one time not so very long ago, ten years ago, we used to have two joiner’s shops, we used to have a blacksmith’s shop, we had other shops there in St. John’s at that particular time. It was a thriving little village. Now we have no industry there at all. All we have is a derelict expanse of acreage around the village and I invite you, sir, just to walk from the hill and look down over on one side and you have a sandpit which is a disgrace to anybody. That is privately owned. On the other side you look down and you see acres and acres of land which is really a disgrace to anybody to own. On the other side you have a huge car park where you have one vehicle using it for, well, 11 months and 30 days of the year and after that it is used on Tynwald day only. And again, multiply the situation. Alongside that there is acres and acres of ground there which could be used for probably little sheltered workshops for people who really need them. I make a plea on their behalf, sir.

Mr. Delaney: We could store the window cleaner’s ladders there!

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I would just like to clarify one point in the hon. member’s speech. He said there were 50 empty properties in Kirk Michael. There are not. What he meant to say, I think, was that there were 50 properties for sale and that was what was told him, and I would not want the wrong thing to be taken up by the Press.

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, very briefly, two points only. Young people are training at the college of further education, they are training in basic building skills and what they are doing is they are going up and they are building walls then the next day they are knocking them down again. I would like to see something more practical, and the scheme that I have suggested would be part of that refurbish­ ment of derelict properties of which we have got far too many. That is one.

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved T76 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

The other thing is the hon. Mr. Speaker made reference to the chirping of the union members and 1 think I dislike that remark. I think it is only right that union members should be allowed to contribute whatever they have to the Government processes within this Island. Thank you, Your Excellency.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, you have, I think, been fairly tolerant in allowing the debate on unemployment to develop from a fairly limited resolution and perhaps you will be kind enough to allow me to reply in the same vein. Of course we, in producing the sequence of the report, circulated it to Tynwald before we got here. To also have a statement of policy intention and then to allow this debate, I think, is the ideal way in which we should look at the current situation.

None of us are happy. None of us can ever claim to be happy in the present situation and I welcome every suggestion made by members here this afternoon who, I might say, have been very constructive, possibly with one exception, the hon. member who seemed to think that we had done nothing and we had achieved nothing. I suggest that he looks at some of the debates of a few years ago to realise how different the approach is now to what it was even two or three years ago.

I think we must accept looking at tax subsidies or tax changes to help additional employment; I think we ought to look at that. But I think also the suggestion made is probably not as good as the scheme that we are currently using ourselves.

The whole view of unemployment appears to have missed some members and I am sorry that some members do not appear to have read the report, to try and get at what we are trying to achieve. We are on the one hand trying to deal with the problem of youth unemployment which is accumulating year by year because we are not providing enough jobs for the additional workforce, and the present schemes which are, as Mr. Karran has rightly said, better supported and better organised than they are in the United Kingdom, These schemes are known to provide employment experience which leads to proper jobs being given to those people all the year round at a reasonable level of support both to the person and to the employer, and if we look at the worth, the cost-effectiveness of that scheme it is way beyond any possibility of the cost-effectiveness of the traditional winter works schemes where, for the sake of about 13 weeks’ work, the cost is actually in many cases higher than providing a total all the year work for the group of people who we are proposing to employ. But having accepted that there are a group of people who can and should be employed to meet the vacancies that are likely to arise, we have to accept that there is a very large group of people on that register who are not being employed and who appear not to be able to be trained or wish to be trained.

If you look year in year out but in particular this year you will see that the largest single item in the number of unemployed is related either directly or indirectly to the construction industry, and the quickest way of providing those jobs is to provide the work in the construction industry and to get over the hump that has bedevilled the construction industry in the last few years in the Isle of Man of stop and go of Government expenditure being for very large civil engineering projects in which most of the money has gone in plant and equipment and in, literally, stone. Two

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 111

of the largest single civil engineering projects that have taken up most of the money of this Court employed very little labour indeed. What we are proposing, and part of it has already been approved anyway, but within this report was set out a list of construction projects that will totally employ every building firm of any size in the Isle of Man for a period of four to five years. That is what we are trying to get over in this report. The projects are small, medium size. They will involve the construction workforce that currently is not being employed and hopefully, and it has to be a hope at this stage, hopefully the construction firms themselves will accept the confidence of the volume of work being provided by Government over the next four or five years to reconstruct the workforces that each individual construction firm had previously employed. If that is achieved, and the money to a large extent has already been voted and a lot of the schemes will come forward in the next few months as this gets underway, if at the end of that or, rather, when the sheer volume of those projects comes on stream we then find that we are not providing the jobs then we must report back to this Court again and, therefore, there was provision in the statement this morning that I report again in December, two months away, just to see how this proposal is working.

In the meantime we have to accept that there is a group of people, possibly not a very large number of people who are at the moment dependent on doing something in the summer and getting on a winter works scheme in the winter. This is a way of life and we all know it has been a way of life of a certain group of Manx people for years upon years upon years, and it could be that some of those people may not immediately find the answer in the construction industry; hopefully they will do. But if you look once again at the total number of unemployed and you look in detail at who is employed on winter works schemes over the last few years you will find that the same people or roughly the same people have been employed on the same winter works schemes year in year out, and they drive trams or they drive horse trams during the summer and those people that are employed in the winter are people that have been employed in the summer. The long-term unemployed do not get much of a look-in or on the previous winter works schemes, nor does any regional concern actually alter the picture at all because if there is a group of unemployed in the North, and we know there are, if you provide number of jobs in the North it does not mean that those jobs will be taken by the people who are on the unemployed register in the North.

The committee, the Employment Committee of Executive Council has been looking at this problem in the greatest possible detail during the summer months to try and get down to the absolute reasons why certain people remain unemployed. The individual interviews with people that have been going on have been very helpful to give an idea of what type of problem we have in its detailed answer. It is also extremely interesting to hear the comments of the individual people, and I think although there might be some suspicion that we are possibly trying to track down people who should be at work, I think the largest number are very glad that at long last somebody is interested to find out what they want, and thus I come down to the problem of notifying people as quickly as possible of any vacancy that does arise, to at least give an opportunity for these people to get into that job as quickly as possible. Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved T78 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Individual members have said ‘What else can we do?’ and of course there are things that we can do that we are not doing at the moment. I refer to the Small Business Opportunities Scheme which so far we have not taken on board in the Isle of Man, which is used, I understand, in the United Kingdom. This is something I think we ought to look at very urgently during the next few months to see whether it would be possible to start some limited small business opportunities scheme and that is very much linked with having the necessary premises available, and I think the development of the Ramsey shipyard, for instance, in which we visualise small units for small single-worker businesses starting up in a very limited scale with Government support, that is the kind of thing that, if it was located in Ramsey, would make a considerable difference, and I think the developments we will be seeing from the Industry Board, which I know they already have finance for, should achieve that sort of provision.

As the hon. member for Middle has said, one could extend the amount of support you give to all young people. That would be a very costly item and is something that we should look at very carefully.

Just dealing with one or two points that have been raised, for instance, points raised by Mr. Speaker which are perfectly valid, that Government is overstaffed. It is deliberately overstaffed at this moment and has been deliberately overstaffed for several years with the assumption that we will provide employment until such time as the labour market becomes shorter of workers and we can shed some ourselves. So we are, we have to admit it, deliberately running a Government that is overstaffed as a matter of policy.

I think the Chairman of the Board of Education, also I know him personally, he has a personal involvement in ensuring the vocational training of young people, and I think this proposal before us here in this resolution should really be seen in combination with the next one because the two are very much in hand.

There was one very interesting comment and one that I think also needs exploring in the future and that is a matter that I saw referred to in a Swedish document on unemployment and the management of the whole workforce, and that is that you look at employment, unemployment and training within one total budget, that you have a total budget which involves work creation, training and those people who are temporarily out of a job and that the financial provision in unemployment benefit becomes part of the total budget of the management of the workforce, in which case it makes sense, as some people have said, to employ the people you are actually paying to be unemployed. So we have at least three or four additional areas that we shall be looking at in the next few months.

I hope that you will accept the proposal here before you. I have promised that we will return in December to keep you updated on the way things are going, and if additional assistance or help is needed for other schemes that need to be started we will not have any hesitation in proposing them. I beg to move.

Extended Youth Vocational Experience Programme — Additional Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T79

The Governor: Hon. members, I will first put the amendment standing in the name of the hon. member for Glenfaba, Mr. Gilbey. Will those in favour say aye; those against say no.

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys —

For: Messrs. Quirk, Gilbey, Mrs. Christian, Messrs. J. H. Kneale, Maddrell, Walker, Cringle, Faragher, Brown, May, Duggan, Cretney, Delaney, Martin, G.V.H. Kneale, Irving, Dr. Moore, Mr. Bell and the Speaker — 19

Against: Messrs. Cannan, Morrey, Payne, Karran and Cain — 5

The Speaker: Your Excellency, the amendment carries in the House of Keys, sir, with 19 votes being cast in favour and five votes against.

In the Council —

For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Lowey, Ward, Dr. Mann, Mr. Radcliffe, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Callin and the President of the Council — 8

Against: Mr. Anderson — 1

The Governor: In the Council eight in favour, one against, the motion therefore carries and I will put the main motion as amended. Will those in favour say aye; those against say no.The ayes have it.

Gentlemen, I propose now, with your agreement, that we shall adjourn for tea. At the end of tea we will have petitions. Can we afford to start at twenty- five past? Ail good counsels should be here five minutes early Twenty-five past.

The Court adjourned at 4.09 p.m.

PETITION OF THE MAYOR, ALDERMEN AND BURGESSES OF DOUGLAS FOR THE CONFIRMATION OF BYELAWS — APPROVED

The Governor: We turn to Petitions, item 53. Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough of Douglas for confirmation of the Borough of Douglas General Bye-Laws (Amendment Bye-Laws) (No. 2) 1985. 1 call upon the Chairman of the Local government Board.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Prayer of the Petition be and the same is hereby granted.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough of Douglas For the Confirmation of Byelaws — Approved T80 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

It was agreed.

PETITION OF THE MAYOR, ALDERMEN AND BURGESSES OF THE BOROUGH OF DOUGLAS FOR THE SALE OF LAND AT THE T.T. GRANDSTAND — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 54. Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough of Douglas for approval to the sale of land at the T.T. Grandstand in Douglas to the Isle of Man Tourist Board for the sum of £16,500. I call upon the Chairman of the Local Government Board.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Prayer of the Petition be and the same is hereby granted.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

COLLEGE OF FURTHER EDUCATION — EXTENSIONS — FURTHER EXPENDITURE APPROVED

The Governor: Then we return to the main Agenda. Item 16, Mr. Kneale.

Mr. G.V.H. Kneale: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

WHEREAS Tynwald approved on 18th June 1985 the scheme for pre­ contract works at the College o f Further Education, Homefield Road, Douglas, at a total sum not exceeding £90,070.

NOW THEREFORE Tynwald approves of the Board of Education incurring expenditure o f a sum not exceeding £2,463,450 in respect o f Phase 1 o f the main scheme o f major extensions at the College o f Further Education.

Your Excellency, the reasons for this extension at the College of Further Education have been explained at length on several occasions, and Tynwald in June of this year approved the expenditure on the precontract works for this scheme which are now well on the way. For Phase 1 of the scheme we had tenders from four contractors and their prices varied by approximately £206,000, the lowest being Format Building Techniques Limited at £1,809,899; professional fees, furniture, equipment and Clerk of Works costs put the total up to £2,288,450 which is within the estimate of £2,300,000 allowed for in the Budget. As the contract duration for the project is

Petition of the Mayor, Aldermen and Burgesses of the Borough of Douglas For the Sale of Land at the T.T. Grandstand — Approved College of Further Education — Extensions — Further Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T81 two years and as in normal circumstances for all schemes in 1987 a petition for additional borrowing would have to be submitted in respect of inflation, the Finance Board on the advice of Mr. N.R. Cooil have decided on an inflation provision to establish a firm financial limit. The figure added by the Finance Board to cover this provision is £175,000, making a total of £2,463,450. Now I have had copies of the plans for this scheme deposited in the Members’ Room for some time now and I hope hon. members will have examined them. I move that Tynwald approve this expenditure scheme.

Mrs. Hanson: Your Excellency, if I could just ask two quick questions?

The Governor: Are you seconding?

Mrs. Hanson: Well, I will second it, yes, Your Excellency. I had a quick look at the plan today of the extension — which I have not actually seen before — in the lunch time and there are just one or two things I would like to ask because it is not made quite clear.

I see there is a ramp which we use for the disabled; is there also a toilet for the disabled because it is not actually marked? I also understand that there is a room for a crèche; now is this crèche for students who have children to come to the College of Further Education for special training or is it part of the nursery nurses’ course where they will have the opportunity of looking after young children in the crèche?

Mr. Brown: To make it absolutely clear I am 100 per cent, behind the provi­ sion of further education facilities for the people of the Isle of Man, but there are a few questions I would like to ask the chairman and which I would like to have answers to.

The plans which are up in the Members’ Room which are the detailed plans of the development show exactly what is going on. The one thing I do not see or cannot find in looking at it is the extension being on pillars; yet, if my memory . . . And I did check the Local Government Board plans; it shows that the building is actually up off the ground on pillars with a roadway underneath the extension and I wonder has that now been changed?

The other thing is, the car parking, which I know in itself has been a bit of a difficulty to the Board of Education and it is a difficult site to provide parking where it is to be provided, which is at the back of the actual College of Further Education, and I would like to know what is the actual cost of the car parking facility to be provided there? Because if the scheme as initially projected is to go ahead then I believe it is a very expensive scheme and I would have thought that if that is the case then we should have looked elsewhere for a facility for parking and 1 would hate too much money to be spent on just providing parking or, should I say, providing the facility to enable parking to be provided?

Mrs. Christian: Your Excellency, I have no intention of commenting on the details of the scheme and I feel sure that it will be supported by Tynwald Court

College of Further Education — Extensions — Further Expenditure Approved T82 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 today. However, I would perhaps use this item on the Agenda as a vehicle to point out the revenue implications not only of this scheme but of many of the other major capital schemes which we are endorsing over the next few years.

The Chairman of Executive Council has indicated that the Treasury staff have put together a programme which spans a number of years for the purpose of creating a balanced situation for our construction industry. Now, earlier this year at estimates time and during the debate on this year’s Budget, quite clearly boards were having difficulty in reconciling the amounts of money which were available to them with the services which they wished to provide and, in some instances, which other members of the Court felt they ought to be providing.

All I wish to say is that I hope that members of the Court will fully recognise and appreciate what the implications of these capital schemes are for revenue expenditure in the coming years. There is no way in which the Court can be satisfied that its income is going to expand to the extent which would enable the Finance Board to say, ‘do not worry, we will be able to find that extra revenue; there is no way in which it is going to affect your current services’. We cannot say that. If we find ourselves in a situation where our revenue position is such that we are not able to increase the amount voted to each board in line with the services which they currently provide plus these revenue implications on capital expenditure, then something has got to give. Either those boards will have to delete some of their services or we are going to take from one board to give another, and I simply want to say that members of the Court — please bear this in mind; we will possibly reach a situation where some very painful decisions are going to have to be made, and it is incumbent upon all members to recognise that now. Of course they may have views to express about where cuts shall be made if they are necessary, but in going ahead with these capital schemes we need to recognise, for example, that on this project alone the full-year revenue implications when this scheme is completed will be over £1 million a year, not an insubstantial amount in relation to the overall budget of the Board of Education and one wonders where perhaps it is going to be found.

Your Excellency, I support the principle behind the expansion of further education in the Isle of Man. We need to do it but let us recognise that in supporting that principle we are going to have some difficult decisions to make in other areas.

The President of the Council: Your Excellency, I, like the last speaker, do not wish to comment on the details of the scheme — I think we should leave that to the Board of Education with their advisers — but 1 would like to remind ourselves (hat some of us were in this Court when the original College of Further Education was mooted, and many in the Court had doubts as to the need for such a very expensive building together with the staff that it required. Many had doubts as to whether the Isle of Man required such a place or not. It has happily turned out . . . and they did say at the time that one of the great things about colleges of further education, particularly where expensive equipment was required — the utilisation of not only the building but the equipment was very essential; it must not be just a nine-to-five job and then. . . or, in many cases, some of the rooms that have been

College of Further Education — Extensions — Further Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T83 used way back, science rooms and so forth, were used on Tuesday afternoon and so forth. Here we have a College of Further Education which is not only used during the daytime but is used extensively during the night and proof of that could be found if you go up there in the evening time to try and get a park for your car. It has been greatly used and 1 think here is a great investment in the youth of the Island, and not only the youth but there are many people who perhaps no longer could be called youth, perhaps of my own age, sir. —

Mr. Anderson: Never!

The President of the Council: ... that visit this place in the evening time to take on some of the studies that they do, and 1 rise to compliment the Board of Education on their courage to come forward with an ambitious scheme of this kind which can only benefit what we were speaking about in the last resolution — the suitable education for our young people to take suitable and well-paid jobs, 1 support the resolution.

Mr. Morrey: Your Excellency, there is no doubt that I support the extension of the College of Further Education. However, with the spending of £2Vi million I hope this is not going to be at the expense of other facets of education. I hope this is not going to mean that we cannot see our children to school, that we are not going to provide school meals, that we are not going to have any libraries, that we are going to close the small schools, and I would like some indication from the hon. Chairman of the Board of Education that this will not be so. He told us in the last debate that there were modifications in secondary education. Now, 1 applaud this and I hope this is the facet of education that he is going to take a good hard look at, and if I felt that this vote was going to be at the expense of these things then I am afraid that 1 would have to vote against this resolution. However, I shall be listening carefully to see what he has got to say about this.

Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, having just listened to the last speaker, Mr. Morrey, and his concern, I think he is only right that he should be concerned because 1 must congratulate my colleague from Ayre, Mrs. Christian, that she is trying to portray to this Court a budgetary problem. It is one that is coming upon us very fast and, speaking for my chairman, I can say that the budget system is going to start a lot earlier this year.

I would like to congratulate the Chairman of the Board of Education on submit­ ting the plans to the Members’ Room. This is something that we wanted, this is something we are all agreed to, a substantial amount of money is being spent and we have the plans there to prove it, so I would like to thank you, sir.

The other thing that interests me is that I would just like to put in a message that we have been accused of having no ideas in another place, in another question which was earlier on; this is one of the capital schemes, with others, which will be submitted to this Court monthly during the months of October, November and December; that is a take-up of the industry, the contractors, it is a take-up of the skilled men and it is hoped to be a take up of the semi-skilled, and I would just

College of Further Education —■ Extensions — Further Expenditure Approved T84 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 like to put that note on the floor before 1 sit down that it is something that we should bear in mind and not, when we have finished with this, forget it. Remember what we are talking about his afternoon, hon. members. We are going to be talking about other things; they all come together — October, November, December.

Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, I will be very brief. Fortunately the hon. member for Middle has really taken away the words that 1 have written down here on this particular subject. Government is a jigsaw that goes up to make Government and this is certainly part of the jigsaw. This is proof positive that this Government is doing something. It may not be doing it quickly enough or doing a complete picture but it has got a plan and is slowly working towards it.

I am not going to spend very long on the item before us other than to say that I have been privileged in the last fortnight to be the regional representative of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Conference in Saskatchewan and I was privileged there to visit schools, universities and colleges, and anyone that knows Canada knows that Saskatchewan is one of the wealthiest provinces of that great country. It has an abundance of ability of wheat, oil, potash, gold and yet the real wealth of that particular province in that country is its people and I saw the investment that has been made in the schools in that area, both primary, senior and further education and there is no doubt that the slogan that was given to us by the premier of that state was, ‘If you value your future you must invest in your youth,’ and this is precisely what is being done here in a small way. I think it ill behoves anybody in this Court to even challenge it; let us give more power to the Board of Education in this.

Mr. Cannan: Your Excellency, I first of all offer congratulations to the Chair­ man of the Board of Education in coming forward with these progressive views. The first speech I made in this hon. Court some three years ago was that it was time to change from offering our Island children a lifetime of winter works schemes and casual summer employment and this is the beginning of the change, the change that the Chairman of the Industry Board said so rightly before tea, a change that we must go through. But we have heard this afternoon the typical ‘Catch 22’ situation. We have been offered the benefit of training future generations and I am all the way with it; we have had a member of the Finance Board saying ‘Beware but beware’ because you will have a revenue expenditure year by year of £1 million and if you want to finance it then the cut will have to come somewhere else, and the member for Ayre, Mr. Morrey is saying much the same thing but, even more forcefully, he will not support this if it means cuts in the rural education and the rural bus service, school meals and so on. Again, from another member of the Finance Board, we have been told of the benefit of it, and that is that it will create employment from those who are presently unemployed in the building of it, and that is part of the wonderful progress of this Government. So really the members of the Government are saying, ‘This is great, it is going to create employment in its building, it is going to train our youth but beware, because the cost of it is we are going to have to cut something else.’ Well, I will say ‘so be it’ because, as I said before when I first came here and I will go on saying it, we owe to the Manx

College of Further Education — Extensions — Further Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T85 youth, to our future generations, as has already been said, to get out of this rut of winter unemployment, casual summer employment, and that is their lifetime prospect. We are changing, we are moving toward the 21st century and I believe that this is again, repeating, a step in the right direction and 1 congratulate the Chairman of the Industry Board in spelling it out so well and so clearly before tea.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, very briefly, I find myself, unusually, in agree­ ment with the hon. member for Michael. As I interpret his message it is priorities and I would agree with him that we need to set our priorities, that this is a priority, not only for the job creation aspect but also for the future training and the provision of skilled and trained young people to take the jobs which are on offer. But I also would say that my colleagues on the Finance Board are entirely right to point out that it is an expensive scheme. We can justify it in that it is value for money but we would not, I think, go along with the other member for Ayre, Mr. Morrey, saying that we want everything else as well. I am not restricting these comments to the Board of Education but I think all the boards are going to be asked to look very carefully at their priorities. If something is more important — it may be painful but something else may be less important and I think every board has got to make its own priorities.

Also I would like to say that this type of scheme is one which will provide a stimulus to the economy in various ways. Now, I agree with Mr. Speaker earlier this afternoon when he said that our economy is far from buoyant. There are indications that the economy is beginning to pick up. My worry is not whether we are recovering — I have no doubts about that; my worry, like my colleagues on the Finance Board, is whether that recovery will be converted into Government revenue soon enough to make next year’s Budget easier, and so once again I would join my colleagues in saying we support this, it is value for money, it should be done but we still do not know what the cost of doing it will be.

The Governor: The Chairman to reply.

Mr. G.V.H. Kneale: Thank you, Your Excellency^ In reply to Mrs. Hanson, there will be toilets for the disabled and as regards the creche it is used in conjunction with the nursery nursing courses. We are all anxious to find extra creches because we have got so many people now taking and we do encourage people who have babies to bring them along so that they can be used as — (Interruptions and Laughter) — as the guinea pigs.

The hon. member for Castletown, Mr. Brown — he may have got the impression that part of the building was on pillars because of the junction with the old building, but that is not so; the corridors that are joining the buildings can also be used as teaching areas and staff areas.

As regards the car parking the majority of the car parking was covered in the precontract work because we had to make preparation because of the nature of the site and the part at the back of the College is a very, very steep slope and the majority of the car park is already being covered in that. Naturally enough there

College of Further Education — Extensions — Further Expenditure Approved T86 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 will be a replacement to some of the car parking area on the main site when the building is completed and the ground will have to be re-tarred and the cost of that, which part of it will be used for car parking, will be £75,000 but that would be necessary whether we put a car on it virtually or not.

Now, the hon. member for Ayre, Mrs. Christian, made a general observation about the revenue implications for the future. Well, this is something that you cannot avoid. If you are going to have capital schemes then you have to have revenue implications, and in case anybody imagines that by cutting out the capital schemes that would benefit us 1 would remind them what happened in the 50’s in the Isle of Man. 1 was a member of the old education authority then and we know, because there was a recession similar to the one we have got at the moment and Govern­ ment decided they would not get involved in the building of anything and all building came to a standstill, what happened: the population of the Isle of Man went down by 7,000 in ten years, the building industry collapsed, the brickworks that were at Ramsey, for example, moved to Australia and I am sure nobody wants that to happen and this is why, when there is a recession in the building industry, it is important that schemes are put forward. The fact that they happen to be a scheme like the one we are putting forward at the moment that has a very useful purpose — that is an additional bonus.

Now I do thank the hon. member of Council, Mr. Nivison, because he did mention when I came forward — and I must accept that I was the instigator of the scheme, the new College of Further Education, in the 1970’s and great doubts were heaped on our heads about the wisdom of this. I am sure that everybody accepts now that this has been a very worthwhile scheme. At that time we were catering for 250 full­ time students and then a whole host of part-time, so at the present moment there are at the present moment 450 full-time students going there and then the other people who go on day release and people going for part-time training during the day and the evening and, literally, thousands of people taking advantage of the evening classes.

The hon. member for Ayre Mr. Morrey — now he did suggest that he would not support this if it was going to take money away from other aspects and he did mention the libraries, small schools, transport et cetera. I am not going to give him any undertaking that any of these items will not be cut in the future because, as far as I am concerned, every side of education has to justify itself. I recently attended a meeting and went along to speak to the Small Schools Association and I spent two hours with them talking to them and answering all their questions. I made it very clear to them there is only one thing that they can do to keep their small schools open: the absolutely essential thing is to keep providing children, and as long as they keep providing children on a regular basis there is no question of their schools being in danger. (Laughter) Now I did put the main emphasis that it was the ladies that had to do the main work in providing these children.

Mr. Maddrell — again I would thank him for his support as 1 do all the members who have indicated their support for this: the hon. member of Council, Mr. Lowey,

College of Further Education — Extensions — Further Expenditure Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T87 the hon. member, Mr. Cannan, and the hon. member, Dr. Moore. 1 thank the Court generally for the way they have received this resolution. I beg to move, sir.

The Governor: Hon. members, I put the motion therefore. Will those in favour say aye; against, no. The ayes have it.

CASTLETOWN POLICE STATION — EXTENSION — EXPENDITURE APPROVED

The Governor: Item 17, the Castletown police station extension. I call upon the Chairman of the Home Affairs Board.

Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to move —

THA T Tynwald approves o f the Home Affairs Board incurring expend­ iture of a sum not exceeding £24,000 in respect of the building of an extension to Castletown Police Station, Castle Street, Castletown. The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

TYNWALD MEMBERSHIP PENSION SCHEME — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 18. Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme 1985. I call upon the President of the Council.

The President of the Council: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

WHEREAS in the Budget of 21st May 1985 Tynwald approved of the expenditure o f £43,000 in respect o f the Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme 1980.

AND WHEREAS on 10th July 1985 Tynwald approved the Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme 1985 and this sum is now insufficient.

NOW THEREFORE Tynwald authorises the Treasurer o f the Isle o f Man to apply from the General Revenue of this Isle during the year ending 31st March a sum not exceeding £12,650, being the additional amount required to meet the cost o f the said scheme in the current financial year, such sum to be in addition to the amount already voted by Tynwald.

Your Excellency, I wish to propose this as Chairman of the Joint Committee on the Remuneration. The pension scheme — I want to make it abundantly clear to the Court that the scheme has been agreed and what we are considering today is

Castletown Police Station — Extension — Expenditure Approved Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved T88 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 the amount of money: £12,650 is the additional money required, not for the present members of Tynwald — I was rather disturbed to find that a statement had been given to the Press by a certain party. It was rather derogatory of certain members of this Court. 1 do not wish to enter into any abuse with anybody but some of the statements were quite wrong, they seemed to suggest that we were paying ourselves extra money and we were neglecting the closing down of the White Hoe; this is what the statement was about. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The money that we are proposing in this resolution is for colleagues that were former members of Tynwald and have now retired, and we had representations made to us, Your Excellency, by these members that we should consider adjusting their pension. The Pension Committee went into this very closely and asked the joint committee to look at it still further and a sub-committee was appointed, and we looked into this very closely and came forward with the recommendation of a slight improvement on the pension. The statement did make some reference to the fact that the members were paying themselves 75 per cent, of what they were earning when they retired. I would say that a member in order to get 75 per cent, would have to have in excess of 30 years’ service and this is the kind of service in legislatures of this kind where service is, generally speaking, not of a very extended period. The average is probably five years, ten years in some cases. There are some of us here of course that —

Mr. Anderson: We can’t get rid of! (Laughter)

The President of the Council: perhaps a little longer service but we will not go into that.

What I want to suggest to you, Your Excellency, and to the Court, because I know there are certain members have certain observations on this, that we are dealing not with the scheme, the scheme has been approved almost unanimously by this Court on the last occasion on 21st May, but we are now considering the motion to provide the money for the scheme. I think we are doing the right thing to make sure that those people do get a suitable pension, and there is none of them are getting very large sums 1 can tell you. It is not my business to tell the public about private business but there are a lot of people involved and it is in common with many legislatures throughout the Commonwealth; in fact most if not all do provide some pension scheme. It can only be paid to a person who has received the age of 60. It can only be paid to a person who has in excess of five years’ service and then it is 2.5 per cent, of the sum that they were receiving per year. So a person would have to have in excess of 30 years’ service before he would get the 75 per cent.

I move this with confidence because 1 know that the majority of members would wish to see their colleagues that are now retired receiving a suitable pension.

The Speaker: I beg to second and reserve my remarks.

Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, in his Budget speech, page 14 in case anyone wants to refer to it, the hon. Chairman of Finance Board said and I quote: “ At the end

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T89 of the year it is still anticipated that we shall have a balance of £3.4 million on our revenue account if this hon. Court is resolute in allowing supplementary votes only in exceptional circumstances.” We then had the Chairman of the Finance Board urging this Court to be resolute in allowing supplementary votes only in exceptional circumstances, and I am grateful to the President of the Council for pointing out that, however we voted, the principle here has been decided. We are now dealing with an entirely different matter, a matter which is whether on this matter a supplementary vote is justified, and therefore hon. members should feel in no way bound by their vote on the principle in July. This is a different matter. Is a supplementary vote justified in these circumstances?

The Tynwald membership scheme is extraordinarily generous by any standards. It takes into account members’ expenses for calculating their pensions. It provides pensions of 75 per cent, of final remuneration after only 30 years’ service. A member’s spouse is automatically entitled to a three-quarter pension of that due to the member and the whole scheme is virtually index-linked. Therefore there can be no pressing need for a supplementary vote. I know that some people will argue it is a mere £12,650 it is an immaterially small amount of money. I cannot agree with this.

Let us consider how much better this sum could'be employed in a supplementary budget to further some of the Government’s major policies or, as the Chairman of Finance Board himself has said a few minutes ago, to follow our priorities. It would largely pay for an extra member of the police force to help in the fight against drugs.

Dr. Mann: It won’t.

Mr. Gilbey: I said, largely, Your Excellency. It would provide work for almost a year for probably two people. Finally, it would undoubtedly enable, at least for a period, children to once more be able to take part in sporting fixtures between schools. How can we justify this as a supplementary vote at a time when we ap­ parently cannot afford, even in a year of sport for children to travel between schools to take part in sporting matches?

Even more important, however, than the sum itself are the psychological effects of such expenditure. I am very sorry, Your Excellency, that in the Agenda before us we should have three instances of suggestions for more expenditure in respect of past or present members of this hon. Court, £12,650 under this one, well over £10,000 from the suggestion of the Standing Orders Committee of Tynwald that there should be a new presiding officer of this hon. Court and, finally, an unspecified amount on account of the suggestion of the Committee of Boards’ Responsibilities that all hon. members of this Court should be paid the equivalent of a chairman’s allowance. How can we justify such ideas when we cannot even afford a few thousand pounds to get children to and from sporting matches? How can we expect those we employ to moderate their wage claims when at a stroke we propose increasing the cost of our own pension scheme by some 30 per cent, and how can

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved T90 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 we expect public sector employees to exercise thrift and economy unless we set a real example from the top?

Your Excellency, for all these reasons I shall be voting against this resolution and I hope that on this occasion I shall not be alone.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, many members of this Court, sir, would stand up, and have done on many occasions, to defend the rights of individual citizens of this Island. Not one of us, I believe, would see a citizen done down. Not one would take away anything from an individual person we thought was getting a raw deal, and in the same way 1 would do that for anyone in the Isle of Man and I will do it today for people who are not here to defend themselves. (Members: Hear, hear.) We are talking about members a lot of friends of mine and colleagues of ours who might very well — and the hon. member is used to quoting figures. Politicians, and that is the game we are in, have the highest risk factor of a number of diseases, particularly coronaries and heart attacks. That is a fact, the stress and pressure we are under and let us not kid ourselves. The old days have gone now. We are in a new ball game and whereas members can buy and sell banks and not have to worry about their pensions schemes, where members can be involved in many directorships and not have to worry about their income, a lot of members coming after us, sir, into this Court will come in as professional people. They will come to do a job of work. They will come on the position as it is at that time and for us who are going out to face the public next year, whether any of us are returned back or not, I would like to think that the person who takes my seat will at least have the opportunity to survive possibly a little longer in this life than I will, if he has to do half the worrying that we have to do on behalf of the people we represent. We have a responsibility for those that come after us to make sure that the pressures we are facing and we are facing; We heard about debates on crises, financial problems, planning for the future. That is what we are doing. We are planning for a better Government. Therefore a better life for the people we represent and other people are going to represent.

Your Excellency, the chairman knows very well for the nine short years I have been in this Court I oppose, I abhor the idea that I have to vote for what benefits me. I think it is totally wrong. I have said this every year when this has come up. I think it should be an outside body and I hope other members will take up my call, because it stops this idea where people can throw the bat and the ball backwards and forwards at us. Let somebody else decide what we are worth. I have no fear of going out and I am sure other members have not. I see the time the members spend in this building. I see the committee meetings. I see the time that is spent looking after their constituents. So what is wrong? Is somebody looking after my family or your families if we happen to move on to the big assembly place in the sky. (Interruption and laughter) I see no object in that. If members want to go back to the cushy days or the Swiss system of where you get elected and you are put into 50 directorships to make sure you do not need the money from the State, that is fine. Let us have it out in the open.

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Your Excellency, I do not wish to discuss this. I never did for the nine years I am here.But while I have members who are prepared to sit back and tell us about this £12,000 that can be put to better use. I will point out to that member I can see hundreds of thousands of pounds that are wasted in Government, which is our job to try and stop that waste which can be put to better use and I hope that the Court will have none of this nonsense. It is good political stuff and 1 have often been accused of using it; where it has been, I have done. But I will never use the other members of this Court for political ends to the extent that 1 will stand up and say ‘I am whiter than white. Do not touch me’ and that is what the hon. member is saying. He does not need it but there are many members who are going to come into this hon. House, this House of Keys who will need it —

A Member: Who are in now.

Mr. Delaney: — and I am not going to be one that is going to stop them, giving them the position that at least they will be able to live as well as a sergeant in the police force, because that is the sort of money we are talking about.

Members: Hear, hear.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I just want to support the hon. member for East Douglas. When I came into this House the total amount per annum that a member got was under £500 and these are the people that you are talking about helping, not the sort of money that people get today and although I, when this scheme first came in, voted against it,on reflection and looking at the service given by many of those people, they deserve better than that and it is easy to make political capital out of a situation like this and I do not think we should be doing that. I will support, Your Excellency.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I know I have said this before but we are being totally misled by the hon. member for Glenfaba in the extent of any increases that we are talking about. The average person receiving benefit is receiving literally a few hundred pounds. Most of the people are the widows of members, not members who have retired because, as the hon. member for Douglas East so rightly says, we do not have a very good expectation for various reasons, and the people whose widows we are now supporting actually received £500 a year and they are getting about a third of that currently. Therefore, to give any idea that somehow we are wasting public money, some of those people are, I think, living in fairly pathetic circumstances and I would not quibble one moment in any scheme that improves their lot.

In the last ten, well, nine years that I have been here whenever anybody has objected somebody’s increase in receipts or benefits in which members or wives are affected they are invariably people who do not need them themselves. They have no idea, and I am sorry to say this to the hon. member of Glenfaba, the average person who objects to this has no idea of its real need. I can assure you there are plenty of people in real need and if we let them down, we will eventually have to meet them one day and explain why we did it.

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved T92 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, it would be very easy to sit quiet and say Mr. Delaney has done the job for us. 1 want to support Mr. Delaney 100 per cent. There are many people who come into this Court and most people in this Court have actually made financial sacrifice to come into this Court. Having said that, let me take the argument that was used by my hon. friend from Glenfaba, Mr. Gilbey, who says the alternative use of this money. He stopped at the equation when he said that there was £3-million plus in surplus and we must not raid the kitty. If we really are to accept the argument put forward by Mr. Gilbey, then 1 would say to him if I move a resolution next month asking for £600,000 of that money to put 1,000 people unemployed to work for 12 months would he support it? The answer is he would not. So it is a false premise to suggest somehow by spending this £12,000 we are preventing people from getting to work it is an alternative spend of money.

I believe myself when we come — 1 do not have any dependant relatives so this pension, unless 1 survive, will mean nothing to me, at the moment. (Laughter)

Dr. Mann: What are the plans?(Laughter)

Mr. Lowey: At the moment; 1 am a great believer in taking out insurance, sir. However, the reality is I can quite understand the pressure that Mr. Gilbey has been under recently and I can understand a need to reply to it, but I do not have to apologise for giving a pension to anybody who has worked in this hon. Court and especially not to the widows of those people, of my friends who have gone before, and I would get out and stand on any platform and say so.

Mr. J. H. Kneale: Your Excellency, 1 do not think the hon. member for Glen­ faba should be allowed to stand alone in this case. He knows that I came very close to supporting him in the very courageous speech he made in the July Tynwald. What he said is not easy to say. I held back at that time because I had not researched adequately the origins of the scheme and its development since 1976. I was also somewhat diffident about entering into a controversial matter which may never affect me personally. But what I know now and which I did not know in July is that the pension scheme was originally based on certain assumptions, certain assumptions which I think at that time justified the exceptional fractions and percentages used in the scheme. For instance, in the preamble to the 1976 scheme it is stated that its object is “to afford financial assistance by way of pensions to members past or present... who have made financial sacrifices as a result of service in the Legislature.” Now there is no doubt at all in my mind that that did apply to many cases in the past. I suspect it applies now to a diminishing number of cases.

A Member: Absolute rubbish!

Mr. J.H. Kneale: 1 note, for instance, that in the revision of the scheme in 1980 and 1985 this preamble to the original scheme was omitted. Perhaps that was some confirmation of what 1 have just said. In addition, having read carefully the debates of 1976, many of the other arguments put forward at that time in support of the original scheme and its quite exceptional fractions are now no longer relevant or of very diminished significance. These things should be of concern to us because

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T93 if the considerations which led to the fractions, which were mainly the small base on which the fractions were going to be related, if these considerations are no longer relevant, then we should be reconsidering the whole basic of the scheme. As the member for Glenfaba has said, and I agree because I am a member now of an occupational pension scheme, a pensioner, by virtually any standard of pension schemes it is extraordinarily generous. That was not a piece of supererogation, in other words something that is superfluous and uncalled for, as might seem to be suggested. It is a statement of incontestable fact.

1 will not go over the ground already covered by the hon. member in exposing these excessively generous fractions and percentage in the scheme, except lor one feature which seems rather extraordinary and does worry me somewhat in view of the remarks made by the hon. President of Council in July. The President of Council said in July that when members of the scheme die their spouses still have to “ mix in the same circle as they did hitherto and the calls they have upon them are more than what they are in the case of a person who is not a member.” Now what is the evidence for that kind of statement, which is highly contentious and could be seen as discriminatory by other widows seeking to maintain their standards on greatly reduced means after the decease of their husbands? Now in such a rather subjective argument as a 75 per cent, pension for surviving spouses being justified, I do not know whether this was accidental but this affectation of a superior status in society of the widows of members or possibly the widowers, as the case may be, is not one that I would like to see any more and for the record, my spousee if she survives me, will have three-eighths of my pensions which is half of 75 per cent. Now to be fair to the hon. President of Council for whom I have the greatest respect, he was merely articulating views held by the scheme’s management committee. Also 1 was not long in detecting that, in advocating improvements of the scheme, we did not see much sign of his usual ebullient oratory. It was to me an uncharacteristically muted and hesitant performance, which was perhaps a reflection of the sensitive role we ask him to carry out on our behalf from time to time and which I for one do not envy.

The hon. member for East Douglas has touched on something of importance for the future. We should get out of the situation where we are awarding ourselves extra remuneration, extra purposes or additional pensions and the sooner that is done the better because it is invidious, and uncomfortable and sensitive for us all, whether we speak for it or against it, and I am not enjoying this at the moment.

With regard to Mr. Speaker’s contribution in the July debate, I do not accept that we pay ourselves peanuts. That is certainly not the view of the people of this island, this is a situation in which we do have to have some sense of proportion in judging our own situation relative to the island and the hard facts of the situation are, on the Treasury’s recently published figures, the average standard of living of the people of this island is 70 per cent, of that of the United Kingdom. ‘Peanuts’, 1 suggest, is also a word which should be used with some caution because of that well-known saying that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.

The Speaker: That is what you have got, in some places. (Interruption)

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved T94 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. J.H. Kneale: I did not say that. (Laughter) Finally, Your Excellency, could 1 make my position absolutely clear? I see nothing wrong whatsoever in the payment of pensions to members of this hon. Court when they come to retire and reach the normal age at which pensions are payable. What I find difficult to accept is that the terms of the scheme in its fractions and percentages should be higher than those for the Civil Service, where there are contributory arrangements as well, and consider­ ably higher than the standards in the private sector. There is the problem about what is to be done about those who have retired, where the fractions looked fine but the base on which they were applied was really at the time peanuts, lower than peanuts. There are other methods which can be used to deal with situations of that kind, and that is the way I suggest that this situation should have been tackled, if that was the problem that triggered off the whole impetus of the revision of this scheme.

I find myself in a difficulty because I find myself in agreement with so much that has been said in favour of the scheme except its fractions. But as a matter of principle I cannot vote for this supplementary amount because I believe that we should have approached it in a different way and dealt with the problem on the way I have indicated, at the kind of problem which existed and the people it most affected. Thank you, Your Excellency.

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, I was not going to say anything but I think after the last speaker some things have to be covered, and could I firstly say that I fully endorse what the hon. member for East Douglas has said about projecting the future and trying to overcome the problems.

But I think it should also be made out and we should clarify the situation that we do not get paid an extravagant amount of money for our work. I earn just over £6,500 a year as a pay which is taxed and I work between 60 and 70 hours a week for that money, and every member here does the same. We then get our expenses, which do not cover our expenses, and I am not pleading poverty, Your Excellency. 1 do this because I want to be here, because I believe in what I am doing and I want to help people in this island.

But how in this part of the debate we are ripping ourselves to pieces. (Mr. Delaney: Hear, hear.) decrying ourselves. No wonder the Manx crab is alive. It is in here! It is time and I fully agree it is time that our pay was dealt with by somebody out­ side. (Mr. Duggan: Hear, hear.) I would much prefer that. I think it the most embarrassing situation, that we have to decide on our own pay, our own pension or whatever because, quite honestly, because of that we are holding down our pay, we are holding down our pension and only for people who are on pensions, and I am one of the younger members of this House, who if I get two, three or four terms will still not get a big pension and I accept that, but there are many people who have spent five or ten years here who are getting an even smaller pension, as the Chairman of the Executive Council pointed out, or their dependants are, and I believe that members are here doing the job rightly because they want to, and how easy it is to point the finger that we do not care about everybody outside, we only care about us inside, and that is totally false because we all spend our time

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T95 working, whether people believe it or not, 52 weeks a year, seven days a week 24 hours a day for the people of the Isle of Man, and if you do not believe me you ask my wife, who hassles me because she does not see me enough.

I do not object to doing that but I object to people pointing that we are not doing enough and do not deserve to earn a wage that is a decent wage to do that job properly, and I think we should get that message out. Mr. Duggan: Your Excellency, I will be very brief. I too, like many members, think it is very difficult when we do award ourselves salaries and pension rights but I would like to move an amendment:

that the committee look into the facts o f this problem and report back in one m onth’s time.

I think it should be an independent body, sir.'

Mr. Cretney: Your Excellency, I would second that amendment. I think it is something that should be done entirely independently and outside of this Court and I would support moves in that direction.

Mr. Faragher: Your Excellency, I think that bearing in mind the fact that this hon. Court has previously agreed the principle of this measure in any case, the amendment that has just been proposed is totally empty. But I would say on this subject what hon. members need to appreciate when looking around this Court is that obviously we are dealing with different aged members; we are dealing with members some who — may I say this politely? — retire into politics at various stages of their career and others who probably sacrifice a career to come in here at some stage and I see nothing wrong at all in the provisions that are made for a member of this hon. Court no matter what age they be, that the salary and the benefits and, if necessary, the pension rights should equate to what they are forgoing or what they would have received in a separate career. I think the hon. member Mr. Gilbey stopped short when he spoke about what £12,000, the exact figure, would actually buy; it would almost buy a constable. At the moment it will buy two of us, and that same constable would be, quite rightly, jealously guarding his 36/37-hour week.

Mr. Anderson: Retirement at what age?

Mr. Faragher: Retirement, benefits, whatever — that is fine. I do not begrudge that constable those privileges but I would say, hon. members, that there are some people who are better to exercise self-denial than others. Some can afford it more than others, and I must say as far as younger members coming to this hon. Court are concerned I think they should rightly press for whatever benefits within reason they can obtain, to press for a decent salary, because it might not seriously affect the future prospects of one or two members come next November if they were to be unsuccessful in regaining election, but there are others, particularly the younger end of the age scale who will find a career that they have had to drop that they cannot pick up again, and the prospects for them are I would say considerably

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved T96 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 different from those in a more senior position who will literally retire a little earlier. Frankly, early retirement in mid-thirties is not something to be relished and I think that that is a point that has got to be taken into account in the salary and any other aspect of remuneration for members. I presume that the hon. Court will more than take that into account when voting on this matter. Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, could I just draw the Court’s attention to one fact in resisting this amendment, and that is that this issue was not raised originally by any member inside this Court. The committee, I think you will confirm, sir, met and considered this at the request of those people who were in receipt of very small pensions and the triggering issue came from those outside who were claiming hard­ ship and I think it would be very wrong at this late stage, where they appear to have been given hope, that we are about to do something to have that hope crushed again by the amendment that has been put forward. The Governor: Hon. members, I really think we should give the chairman an opportunity to reply. Mr. Maddrell, is yours an urgent point? Mr. Maddrell: Your Excellency, an hon. member of this Court has made an amendment and he has had it seconded, sir, and 1 do not know the words of it and from what I did hear it made no sense whatsoever to me! (Laughter)

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, speaking to the amendment, first of all I must apologise to the hon. member for Glenfaba. I did not get personal. I apologise to the member — I felt so strongly about the issue. Your Excellency, I hope the member withdraws the amendment on the advice of the Chairman of Executive Council and puts down a resolution to the effect of the amendment at the next sitting of Tynwald.

The President of the Council: Your Excellency, I would first of all like to give the assurance to the mover and seconder of the amendment, who are evidently talking about the broader issue. The resolution here is merely to provide the money for what we have hitherto passed, but on the broader issue I can give you the assurance that the joint committee of which I happen to be chairman will go into the points that have been raised, particularly by the two members that are proposing the amendment, and take into consideration other factors that have been mentioned here too.

I want to say that as I was about to say earlier — and I share the hesitation of the hon. member for Garff when he said it is not an easy thing to talk about; although I did say at the outset that this was not directly affecting any of us, it will subsequently affect or may well affect some of us, so I believe and I have always said, as chairman of this joint committee for many years, that I would never dodge the issue of speaking and telling the public of what we were doing for ourselves rather than . . .There have been occasions when members would be inclined, because of pressure of business and for no other reason, would have accepted it on the nod but I have insisted at all times that we should tell the public of what we are doing.

Now my hon. friend from Glenfaba, Mr. Gilbey, made out a very good case why he should not personally support the scheme. I do not condemn him in any way;

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T97

he has that right to feel that way. At the same time I am sure he must acknowledge our right, when as the Chairman of the Executive Council said, the history of this was that representation was made, not by one pensioner, not by two pensioners but buy the lot. Somebody had been industrious enough to go round to all the pensioners and they produced to us a signed letter asking us to give consideration to some increase in the pension because we had recently altered the terms of the payment to members — I must tell the whole of the story — and we did give that consideration and we came forward with a scheme which was presented to this Court and accepted by this Court and now we come forward for the money.

I am grateful to Mr. Delaney for the support and to Mr. Anderson, to the Chair­ man of Executive Council, to Mr. Lowey and to the seconder, of course, Mr. Speaker. I want to come to my hon. friend Mr. Kneale from Garff to say that he even noted that when I came forward I did not appear to be too enthusiastic on the last occasion. It is not a subject that you can get boiled up about when you are speaking about matters that may subsequently affect us. I was nevertheless never more sincere in my hopes that this would be successful. I want to say too that people have been making comparisons; I think we should remind ourselves — and the hon. member for Glenfaba being associated with the Whitley Council knows this very well — that some of the officers that work for us in the departments — not the top men — when they come to retire they are given one-and-a half years’ salary in a lump sum to go and buy a few sweeties, (Laughter) incidentally, I am not going to quote what that amount is but it is a considerable amount and then they receive a pension of 50 per cent, of what they were drawing at that time. Now there are very few who will be getting the 75 per cent, which the hon. member made reference to and this article made reference to; there are very few that will receive that amount but there are other people ... I am not denying that those other people are getting too much. 1 am saying when you make comparisons you should also bear in mind that there are people that are doing very much less than many of you members are doing; they are down the road before you are down the road at five o’clock. In fact I challenge anyone to go next door at the moment and see how many are there.

Mr. Delaney: Is anybody out there? (Laughter)

The President of the Council: I say that this is their right to go, but our par­ ticular job, as was pointed out by the hon. member for Castletown, is that when you get home tonight you will receive messages — ‘So-and-so was wanting to get in touch with you’, ‘will you ring so-and-so? will you do this, that and the other, or you have got to go to some particular function which you are obliged to go as representing that particular area. Your work is never done.

So I do say that we want to bear this in mind. I do appreciate what Mr. Kneale has said and I do think too that things have changed — I refer, Your Excellency, particularly to the hon. member for Garff — things have changed enormously. When this pension scheme was originally thought up most of the members of this Court were very much part-time members; sometimes it was very difficult to do other work at the same time. I do say it is almost impossible for a person now, with the calls you have upon you in your various boards, to hold down another job, any kind

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved T98 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 of a job, whereas it was possible in days gone by. The work has changed considerably and I do hope that my hon. friends that did propose and second the amendment will withdraw the amendment on the assurance that the joint committee will note what you have said, will go into this whole full business. I cannot promise that they are going to reduce anything; I cannot promise because 1 know unanimously they were all for the scheme as it is and I hope the members are not suggesting. . .

Mr. Delaney: On a point of order, the hon. chairman ... the amendment virtually, as I understand it, is to look at the possibility of forming a committee outside, an independent committee.

The President of the Council: Yes, I can assure you that we have done that in the past and have rejected that for certain reasons but we will give you the assurance that we will go into this again as you have requested. The Governor: Hon. members, I wonder if I could just help here for a moment by reading out what the amendment as signed by Mr. Duggan and drafted with the learned Clerk actually says; then we can more quickly dispose one way or the other. It proposes that the following words be added to the motion: “Further resolves that the joint committee consider and make recommendations on the appointment of an independent commission to determine the levels of members’ remuneration and pension and report back to the Court at its next sitting” . That is the proposed amendment. The President of the Council: Could I say, Your Excellency, that the time factor to appoint an outside body and to report back within one month — I really think that is hardly possible unless the report would be ‘We have found it possible and we have appointed’ Mr. So-and-so who will subsequently report. You see, for them to get the information, some outside body — and surely you do not want them to come forward with some recommendation — we certainly would consider it and we might consider that it was a worthwhile exercise or we might, on the other hand, consider that because of special circumstances, and knowing the workload and work factors, you might be better off relying upon your joint committee, but that is up to members whether they wish to pursue it or not. The Governor: May I ask the proposer of the amendment, Mr. Duggan, whether he wishes to withdraw his amendment? Mr. Duggan: I would withdraw the amendment as long as I get the assurance from the hon. member that he will report back to this Court within two months.

The President of the Council: In due course, I will give that assurance, whether we can do it or not — not that we will do it, whether we are recommending that an outside body should deal with it or whether it should be dealt with by a joint committee, we will go into this question and on that assurance I understand you will withdraw the amendment. Thank you.

The Governor: Hon. members, I would like now to put the motion on item 18. Will those members in favour say aye; Will those against say no.

Tynwald Membership Pension Scheme — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T99

A division was called for and voting resulted as follows:

In the Keys —

For: Messrs. Quirk, Cannan, Mrs. Christian, Messrs. Morrey, Maddrell, Payne, Karran, Walker, Cringle, Faragher, Brown, May, Cretney, Delaney, Martin, G.V.H. Kneale, Irving, Dr. Moore, Messrs. Cain, Bell and the Speaker— 21

Against: Messrs. Gilbey, J. H. Kneale, Duggan — 3

The Speaker: Your Excellency, the resolution carries in the House of Keys, sir, 21 votes being cast in favour and three votes against.

In the Council —

For: The Lord Bishop, Messrs. Lowey, Ward, Dr. Mann, Messrs. Radcliffe, Anderson, Mrs. Hanson, Mr. Callin and the President of the Council— 9

Against: Nil.

The Governor: In the Council, hon. members, nine for and none against. The motion stands.

HOUSE PURCHASE (AMENDMENT) SCHEME 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 19. House Purchase. I call upon the Chairman of the Finance Board, Dr. Moore.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the House Purchase (Amendment) Scheme 1985 made by the Finance Board be and the same is hereby approved.

The Finance Board has recently undertaken a review of the House Purchase Scheme. To ensure that there are limited funds available for house purchase those funds are directed towards the low income applicant who is unlikely to have access to the private mortgage market. The board has made a number of amendments to the administration of the scheme but only one change requires the approval of Tynwald Court, and this change is the increase in the maximum advance from £19,500 to £21,000; that is the scheme at present before you.

But since hon. members are often approached by constituents who ask for details of the scheme perhaps I could mention some of the other changes made. The administrative changes include the reduction in the maximum cost or valuation of a property eligible for an advance — it used to be £40,000, we have now made it £30,000; and secondly, the upper limit on the approved income of the successful

House Purchase (Amendment) Scheme 1985 — Approved T100 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 applicant has been reduced from £10,000 to now £8,500 per annum. These moves are made with the intention of ensuring that the assistance from Government towards house purchase is received by those on relatively low incomes. I beg to move the resolution standing in my name.

Mr. Maddrell: I beg to second, Your Excellency, and reserve my remarks.

Mr. Brown: Your Excellency, while I am delighted to see the maximum go up from £19,500 to £21,000; one that I am concerned about and I really am not happy with is actually the total purchase price being reduced from £40,000 down to £30,000.While accepting that some house prices have reduced, a lot of houses are in the £30,000 to £35,000 range and I cannot understand why it is felt necessary to reduce the maximum from £40,000. If somebody who may still be on a relatively low income can find through other sources the extra moneys to purchase a property of, say, £32,000, then my understanding of the scheme is that they cannot get from Government a mortgage and yet they could still be a low income person. Now I fully agree that a £40,000-plus house is a different matter, but I can take you round most of the estates in the Isle of Man which have — dare I use the term? — late 60’s or early 70’s pebble dashed monstrosities in the Isle of Man, which I personally do not like; they are around the £35,000 range and we are going to debar people from being able to purchase those properties and, as I say, they may have another income which can supplement what they are going to borrow from Government. So I am very concerned about that.

1 would also, while we are on this subject, like you to point out one point that has been concerning myself for sometime, and that is the point that we have, through our scheme, people stuck in first-time purchase in the cheaper houses which were purchased some time ago and find it nearly impossible to get out of that, to get up the ladder a bit, freeing the lower priced houses and going into another range. Again they may be on a lower income and not necessarily able to afford a full mortgage from the bank and it is something I would like the Finance Board to look at as a genuine policy, to see whether anything can be done to help people who are able to try and move that little bit further. I know under certain circumstances it is able to be done if the family exceeds a certain size and the house can be proved that it is not adequate for the means of the person, but there are people who have a family where the house may be adequate but cannot step out of that to a little bit better property and we therefore have a lack of cheaper properties for first-time buyers on the market; in other words we have sterilised the market in doing what we are doing.

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, I actually agree with the Finance Board dropping it from £40,000 to £30,000. The idea of this scheme was to help the weaker members of our society who cannot afford to pay extortionate prices, but I must question, how much does a person have to earn to be able to get £21,000 out of the Government? I know that it is somewhere around £120 or £140 a week to be able to get £19,500 and really, are we catering for the people at the bottom end and helping the people at the bottom end or are we just deluding ourselves? I cannot honestly see the class of somebody who earns £180 a week as a low-paid person;

House Purchase (Amendment) Scheme 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T101

they should go to a bank and that was not the idea of the original scheme, it was to help the people at the bottom, and I do not feel that this is helping the people at the bottom because there are an awful lot of people around £140 to £160 a week and I would be very interested to hear how much a person has to earn to be entitled to £21,000.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I have just two queries I would like to ask the hon. Chairman of the Finance Board. Firstly, is the vote likely to be expended before the end of this financial year? I think during the last financial year there was a moratorium towards the end of the year because the vote was exhausted, and I would like to know if the trend is that that will happen again this financial year. And will the Treasury endeavour to ensure that the potential purchaser has his own survey done of the property that is being purchased rather than rely on that done by the Government valuer, whose responsibility is to Government rather than to the individual himself?

Mr. Lowey: Your Excellency, may 1 just ask one query from the chairman, sir? Is the Treasury satisfied that when it raises the threshold from £19,500 to £21,000 private property prices will not rise accordingly — in other words, that the extra money that is being on offer is not just gobbled up with a general rise in property prices? I know it is not a new problem; we have discussed this at various times in this Court when we have raised the threshold each time. I just wonder whether the monitoring in the past either absolves this or actually confirms the worst suspicions?

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, if I could reply to the hon. member of Council first while I remember his question, we are pretty sure that at that level a £21,000 maximum grant is not going to have any significant effect on the housing market.

In reply to the questions from the hon. member for Middle, Mr. Karran, the £8,500 annual salary is the top limit. Therefore we are only considering people on salaries under that and certainly even, bringing down the ceiling — it used to be £10,000, down to £8,500 — we will have no difficulty in finding enough applicants beneath that level. There comes a time, of course, when one’s income is not enough to afford mortgage repayments and this is why, I think, earlier in the year when we discussed this I did say that unfortunately we could not guarantee that anybody would get a mortgage.

The question about whether it was necessary to reduce the maximum valuation of a house from £40,000 to £30,000 — in the light of experience this is where the applications nearly always come anyhow; if the price of property is more than £30,000 it is very rarely being asked for by someone on the bottom level of affordable income and there is always the opportunity for an applicant to say there are exceptional circumstances and to appeal to the Finance Board. These are the guide­ lines that we give to the Treasury officials. They are not statutorily laid down. If the housing market changes, if circumstances change, then these can be changed overnight; it was purely to facilitate members advising their constituents of the general guide-lines that I mentioned those side issues. The only one that we are asking for Tynwald’s support is putting the maximum up to £21,000 from £19,500.

House Purchase (Amendment) Srhemp 1Q95 — Awm<~c T102 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

In reply to the hon. member for Rushen, Mr. Walker, we always stress to applicants that the Government Valuer’s survey cannot be relied on as a guarantee of the structure of the house. We have in actual fact, on occasions when the Govern­ ment valuer was unhappy about the condition of a house and the applicant was adamant that he was quite happy to take the risk, insisted on a number of appeals that it would only be given if he got his own valuation done at his own expense and it showed the structure to be sound and justify a long-term investment from such a person.

Will we run out funds before the end of this year? It is quite possible that we will. This was one reason why we wanted to tighten the guide lines to try and make sure that if we were going to run out of funds we have not missed anybody who was really deserving and make them wait another couple of months, so hopefully it will be fairly close but we cannot guarantee it. Thank you, Your Excellency.

Mr. Karran: Your Excellency, could I ask a point of clarification from the Chair­ man of the Finance Board? Are you telling me then that you have got to be earning £8,500 salary to get £21,000? How much do you actually have to get to be entitled under the Government scheme to get £21,000?

Dr. Moore: It depends on the length of the loan for one thing.

Mr. Karran: Say 30 years.

Dr. Moore: For a maximum loan I expect you would have to be fairly close to an income of £8,000 — £7,500, I am informed. An allowable salary contains an element, a fraction of a wife’s income as well on occasions, so where you have two people with small salaries that can make it possible, but circumstances differ from individual to individual.

The Governor: Hon. members, in putting the motion to item 19 the learned Clerk has pointed out to me that I have been referring to you as ‘honorary’ members and not ‘honourable’ members.

The President of the Council: You were right the first time! (Laughter)

The Governor: I would not wish you to misinterpret this as a judgement either way on item 18! However, on item 19 I put the motion. Will those in favour say aye; those against say no. The ayes have it.

ISLE OF MAN POLICE (AMENDMENT) (No. 3) REGULATIONS 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 20, the Police acts I call upon the Chairman of the Home Affairs Board.

Isle of Man Police (Amendment)(No.3) Regulations 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T103

Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Isle o f Man Police (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 1985 made by the Home Affairs Board on 13th September 1985 in terms o f Section 16 o f the Police (Isle of Man) Act 1962, be and the same are hereby approved.

The regulations are explained pretty well at the back page and page 10 of the explanatory memorandum, and if members are looking for the financial cost of it in actual fact the increase in these regulations will cost the board approximately £1,700 per annum and we will be absorbing that, not coming forward for a supplementary.

A Member: I beg to second, Your Excellency.

Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, we heard a great deal earlier this afternoon about generous terms. Now I have read the notes and I have read the regulations and I just want to pick up one point, and that is where an officer will be entitled to a minimum four hours’ compensation at overtime rates when he is recalled to duty between two rostered tours of duty. I take it — and this is what I would like the chairman to confirm — that, for instance, if an officer was called out for half an hour I assume he would get 5 'A hours’ pay, and this is the point I wanted to clear up.

Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, the question which is asked, if it is purely for an officer who is called back to duty, if he is continuing he does not get it, if he is called back he gets, if he only does a half-hour, he gets four hours. That is what he gets, he gets his four hours if he is called back for half an hour but he has to be called back to achieve it. Even if he is called back for five minutes he would get four hours. That is the point.

Mr. Callin: This is the point, Your Excellency, I wanted clarifying because I thought that was the case. So if he is called back and he does half an hour he will get 5 'A hours pay because he gets paid —

Mr. Anderson: No, four.

Mr. Cringle: Four hours, he gets four hours irrespective of how long he does. If he is on duty and continues on duty he would not get the additional call-out. If he is at home and for some reason he is called out and then it transpires he is only out for ten minutes before he is allowed to go back again he will then get four hours pay, not 5 'A hours.

Mr. Callin: Yes, I am sorry I appreciate he is getting four hours’ pay but the overtime rate is at time and a third and that —

Mr. Cringle: That creeps after the four hours, that comes on after the four hours.

Dr. Mann: I think I am correct, Your Excellency, that this does not change anything, that this is currently the case.

Isle of Man Police (Amendment)(No.3) Regulations 1985 — Approved T104 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. Cringle: It is changing very little. In fact that is why I told the hon. Court, Your Excellency, that the total cost of all these regulations over the whole of the policy force to the Home Affairs Board will be £1,700 per annum, over the whole of our police force. That is the additional cost of this change in the regulations. In actual fact it simplifies the machinery for working out a lot of these additional costs and witness the one which the hon. member has said, that if it is a call-out he gets the additional four hours.

Mr. Callin: Your Excellency, I do not want to drag this on but what it says in my notes is that four hours’compensation at overtime rates. That is what it says and that is why I am raising it, and that is 5 lA, sir, in my book.

Mr. Cringle: Your Excellency, if the hon. member will take it from me, he will receive the four hours if he is called out for ten minutes at that rate. If the hon. member wishes me to go into this with detail for me I am sure I have the papers here and we can sit and get any of the regulations out for him.

The Governor: Perhaps the interpretation is not so important as the actual motion itself and, provided we get the motion right, presumably the interpretation can be to your satisfaction, Mr. Callin. So will those in favour of the motion say aye; those against, no. The ayes have it.

MANX ELECTRICITY AUTHORITY SUPERANNUATION SCHEME 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 21. I call upon the Chairman of the Civil Service Com­ mission.

Mr. Gilbey: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Manx Electricity Authority Superannuation Scheme 1985, made by the Civil Service Commission on 13th September 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION (APPLICATION)(No.5) ORDER 1985 — SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION (APPLICATION)(No.6) ORDER 1985 — SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION (APPLICATION)(No.7) ORDER 1985 — SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION (APPLICATION)(No.8) ORDER 1985 — SOCIAL SECURITY LEGISLATION (APLLICATION)(No.9) ORDER 1985 —

The Governor: Item 22. I call on the Chairman of the Isle of Man Board of Social Security.

Manx Electricity Authority Superannuation Scheme 1985 — Approved Social Security Legislation (Application Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) Order 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T105

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, I beg to move: That —

(a ) Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 5) Order 1985; (b ) Social Security Legislation (Application) (No.6) Order 1985; (c ) Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 7) Order 1985; (d ) Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 8) Order 1985; (e ) Social Security Legislation (Application) (No. 8) Order 1985;

made by the Board of Social Security on 16th September 1985 be and the same are hereby approved.

The orders in front are orders numbered 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 of the social security legislation. Rather than go through them individually. Your Excellency, are as only one or two members who will want to call, it is the normal procedures, sir, of, updating and increasing certain allowances and benefits paid from the board of which I am responsible. If any specific items wish to be raised, I will be delighted to reply, sir.

Mr. Lowey: I beg to second, sir.

Mr. Duggan: Your Excellency, regarding the pensioners’ lump sum payments, I see here again the pensioners are getting paid £15 this Christmas. With the high cost of living on the Isle of Man and the hardships that pensioners are suffering would the Chairman of the Board of Social Security consider for 1986 a payment of £20 to the old age pensioners? (Laughter)

Mr. Brown: With respect, Your Excellency, this is the wrong motion.

The Governor: Do you wish to say something?

Mr. Brown: It is all right.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, the Court has tried even with difficult times to try and keep up with the inflationary period and the inflationary times we live in, to make sure those members, and it is 33,000 I think it is, voting recipients from the Board of Social Security and we have tried and attempted in the duration of the life of this particular House to keep up with that. There is a case and in actual fact I can tell the hon. member at a recent meeting of the board it was on the agenda, about the Christmas bonus for the coming year, and I can give the assurance to the Court if we can find justification on inflationary grounds to give such an increase, providing I get the finances from the Finance Board, it certainly will be looked at, Your Excellency.

Mrs. Christian: A point of clarification, Your Excellency. Would the chairman confirm that the lump sum pensioners’ Christmas payment is not the subject of this motion?

Social Security Legislation (Application Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) Order 1985 — Approved T106 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, nevertheless I think I am honour-bound to give an answer to any question raised if you feel fit, sir.

The Governor: I believe we should now put the motion. Will those in favour say aye; those against say no. The ayes have it.

I would seek hon. members’ views on whether, now that we are into a trot if not a gallop, we might go on just a little bit longer, say till half past six.

It was agreed.

INDUSTRY BOARD ACT (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 23, Industry Board Act 1981. I call upon the Chairman of the Industry Board.

Mr. Anderson: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Industry Board Act (Amendment) Order 1985 be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

ADOPTION ACT 1984 (APPOINTED DAY)(No.l) ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 24, the Adoption Act 1984. I call upon H. M. Attorney- General.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Adoption Act 1984 (Appointed Day) (No.l) Order 1985, made by the Governor in Council on 29th August 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

Industry Board Act (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved Adoption Act 1984 (Appointed Day)(No.l) Order 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T107

ADOPTION (OVERSEAS ADOPTIONS) ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 25. I call upon H. M. Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Adoption (Overseas Adoptions) Order 1985, made by His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor on 2nd August 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

ADOPTION RULES 1985 —APPROVED

The Governor: Item 26. I call upon H. M. Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Adoption Rules 1985, made by Their Honours the Deemsters under section 52 of the Adoption Act 1984, be and the same are hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

ADOPTION (BIRTH RECORDS) REGULATIONS 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 27. I call upon H. M. Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Adoption (Birth Records) Regulations 1985, made by His Honour the First Deemster and Clerk o f the Rolls under Section 39 o f the Adoption Act 1984, be and the same are hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

Adoption (Overseas Adoptions) Order 1985 — Approved Adoption Rules 1985 — Approved Adoption (Birth Records) Regulations 1985 Approved T108 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

ADOPTION (FORMS OF ENTRY) REGULATIONS 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 28. I call upon H. M. Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Adoption (Forms or Entry) Regulations 1985, made by His Honour the First Deemster and Clerk o f the Rolls under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Adoption Act 1984, be and the same are hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

ADOPTION SOCIETIES ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 29. The Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Government Board to move.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Adoption Societies Order 1985, made by the Local Government Board on 6th September 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

A Member: I beg to second.

The Governor: Those in favour say aye; against, no. They ayes have it.

ADOPTION SOCIETIES REGULATIONS 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 30. I call upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Government Board.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Adoption Societies Regulations 1985, made by the Local Govern­ ment Board Board on 6th September 1985, be and the same are hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

Adoption (Forms of Entry) Regulations 1985 — Approved Adoption Societies Order 1985 — Approved Adoption Societies Regulations 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T109

RULES OF THE HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE (RECIPROCAL ENFORCEMENT) 1985 APPROVED

The Governor: Item 31, maintenance orders. I call upon the H.M. Attorney- General.

The Attorney General: Your Excellency, I beg to move: That the Rules o f the High Court o f Justice (Reciprocal Enforcement) 1985, made by Their Honours the Deemsters on 9th August 1985, be and the same are hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

BOOILUSHAG DRAINAGE DISTRICT ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 32. I call upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Government Board.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Booilushag Drainage Order 1985, made by the Local Government Board on 6th September 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

SOUTHERN LOCAL AUTHORITIES SWIMMING POOL (AMENDMENT) ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 33, local government. I call upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Local Government Board.

Mr. Walker: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Southern Local Authorities Swimming Pool (Amendment) Order 1985, made by the Local Government Board on 9th A ugust, be and the same is hereby approved.

Rules of The High Court of Justice (Reciprocal Enforcement) 1985 — Approved Booilushag Drainage District Order 1985 — Approved Southern Local Authorities Swimming Pool (Amendment) Order 1985 — Approved TllO TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

JURORS ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 34, Jury Act. I call upon the Chairman of the Finance Board.

Dr. Moore: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Jurors Order 1985, made by the Finance Board on 18th September 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

QUILLIAM’S COURT (DOUGLAS) (CLOSURE) ORDER 1985 - APPROVED

The Governor: Item 35, Highway Act. I call upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board.

Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Quilliam’s Court (Douglas) (Closure) Order 1985, made by the Highway and Transport Board under the provisions of Section 24 of the Highway A ct 1927, be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

TENANCY OF BUSINESS PREMISES ORDER 1985 — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 36, Tenancy of Business Premises Act. I call upon the Chair­ man of Executive Council.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That the Tenancy o f Business Premises Order 1985, made by the Governor in Council on 19th September 1985, be and the same is hereby approved.

Jurors Order 1985 — Approved Quilliam’s Court (Douglas) (Closure) Order 1985 — Approved Tenancy of Business Premises Order 1985 — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 Till

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

LHEN AND KILLANE WATER COURSES — MAP DETERMINING CATCHMENT AREA — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 37.1 call upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board.

Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

WHEREAS on 18th June 1985 the Highway and Transport Board in exercise o f the powers contained in Section 6 o f the Land Drainage Act 1934 made an Order directing that the area, the drainage of which is directed to the Lhen and Killane watercourses shall be added to the second schedule of such A ct as a catchment area;

AND WHEREAS this order was approved by Tynwald on 9th July 1985;

AND WHEREAS the Highway and Transport Board has caused to be prepared in relation to such catchment area a map, which is available for inspection in the Members’ Reading Room, determining the extent o f such catchment area, and showing in distinctive colour that part o f the channel and banks o f the Lhen and Killane watercourses which is to be treated as a main river for the purposes o f the Act;

AND WHEREAS in accordance with the provisions o f Section 9 of the Act the board has caused to be published in two newspapers printed and published in this island a notice stating that the map has been prepared and specifying the place at which this map may be inspected, with the time, not being less than one month, within which, and the manner in which objections thereto may be made;

AND WHEREAS no objection to the map has been received;

NO W THEREFORE TYNWALD resolves that the map be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

Lhen and Killane Watercourses — Map Determining Catchment Area — Approved TI 12 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

LOCH MALLOW WATERCOURSE — MAP DETERMINING CATCHMENT AREA — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 38. I call upon the Chairman of the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board.

Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I beg to move: WHEREAS on 18th June 1985 the Highway and Transport Board in exercise o f the powers contained in Section 6 o f the Land Drainage Act 1934 made an order directing that the area, the drainage o f which is directed to the Loch Mallow watercourse shall be added to the second schedule o f such Act as a catchment area;

A N D W H EREAS this order was approved by Tynwald on 9th July 1985;

AND WHEREAS the Highway and Transport Board has caused to be prepared in relation to such catchment area a map, which is available for inspection in the Members’ Reading Room, determining the extent of such catchment area, and showing in distinctive colour that part o f the channel and banks o f the Loch Mallow watercourse which is to be treated as a main river for the purposes of the Act;

AND WHEREAS in accordance with the provisions o f Section 9 of the Act the board has caused to be published in two newspapers printed and published in this island a notice stating that the map has been prepared and specifying the place at which this map may be inspected, with the time, not being less than one month, within which, and the manner in which objections thereto may be made;

AND WHEREAS no objection to the map has been received.

NO W THEREFORE TYNWALD resolves that the map be and the same is hereby approved.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

LOUGH CRANSTAL WATERCOURSE — MAP DETERMINING CATCHMENT AREA — APPROVED

The Governor: Hon. members item 39. I call on the Chairman of the Isle of Man Highway and Transport Board to move.

Mr. Quirk: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

Loch Mallow Watercourse — Map Determining Catchment Area — Approved Lough Cranstal Watercourse — Map Determining Catchment Area — Approve-' TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T113

W HEREAS on 18 th June 1985 the Highway and Transport Board in exercise o f the powers contained in Section 6 o f the Land Drainage Act 1934 made an order directing that the area, the drainage o f which is directed to the Lough Cranstal watercourse shall be added to the second schedule o f such Act as a catchment area.

AND WHEREAS this order was approved by Tynwald on 9th July 1985.

AND WHEREAS the Highway and Transport Board has caused to be prepared in relation to such catchment area a map, which is available for inspection in the Members’ Reading Room, determining the extent of such catchment area, and showing in distinctive colour that part o f the channel and banks o f the Lough Cranstal watercourse which is to be treated as a main river for the purposes of the Act.

AND WHEREAS in accordance with the provisions o f Section 9 of the Act the board has caused to be published in two newspapers printed and published in this island a notice stating that the map has been prepared and specifying the place at which this map may be inspected, with the time, not being less than one month, within which, and the manner in which objections thereto may be made.

AND WHEREAS no objection to the map has been received.

NOW THEREFORE TYNWALD resolves that the map be and the same is hereby approved.

It seems rather illogical, sir, to debate one of these orders when they are really all connected with each other. However, may I just say that the terms that we have with regard this particular order are self-explanatory and more or less as they are written down in the resolution, and on the approval of the map and, as I said before, on the situation where no objections have been heard, then we receive it with the third and final steps in this respect, and I would say, sir, that the Highway Board will then be responsible for the maintenance and repair the improvement of the channels and the banks of the Lhen and Killane catchment area, and such water­ courses will then be deemed a main river for the purpose of the Land Drainage Act and, as I have said, at present those watercourses are the responsibility of the frontages. I beg to move the resolution standing in my name.

Dr. Moore: I beg to second, Your Excellency, and, in doing so, express my hope that in clearing out the trench from Lough Cranstal to the sea, the chairman will exhort his men to be very careful not to damage Lough Cranstal itself, which is virtually the only sizeable piece of natural still fresh water in the Isle of Man. It is a very important ecological centre and is really of great long-term value to the Isle of Man, loved by hundreds of people. So please, do not drain that one.

Mr. Quirk: If I could just assure the hon. member, sir, that it is almost impossible to drain that without a pump in. So I think you are safe on that one.

Lough Cranstal Watercourse — Map Determining Catchment Area — Approved TI 14 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

The Governor: Hon. members, Will those in favour say aye; those against say no. The ayes have it.

We have done half an hour’s work in about three minutes, hon. members, and I would just seek your views again on whether perhaps we could avoid the major areas of debate and perhaps tackle 45, 46 and 47. Are hon. members agreed? (Interruptions)

It was agreed.

RESERVE FORCES ACT 1980, OF PARLIAMENT — RESERVE FORCES ACT 1982, OF PARLIAMENT — RESERVE FORCES (SAFEGUARD OF EMPLOYMENT) ACT 1985, OF PARLIAMENT — EXTENSION TO THE ISLE OF MAN — APPROVED

The Governor: Well then, may I please call upon the Chairman of the Executive Council to move item 45.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That Her Majesty be respectfully requested to direct by Order in Council that the Reserve Forces A ct 1980, o f Parliament, the Reserve Forces A ct 1982, o f Parliament, and the Reserve Forces (Safeguard o f Employment) Act 1985, o f Parliament, shall extend to the Isle o f Man with appropriate exceptions, adaptations and modifications.

Mr. Lowey: 1 beg to second, sir, and reserve my remarks.

Mr. Delaney: Your Excellency, it is appropriate, although we all hope that no reserve force will ever be called up in the Isle of Man, we already know, particularly as we are still on the reserve list. It has been raised before by me and other members concerning people from the Isle of Man who are engaged in Her Majesty’s forces, whether being the professional soldier or in the part-time, and certainly as far as reserves are concerned they have disadvantages against their counterparts from other parts of the United Kingdom in relation to mortgages which they cannot claim back for income tax purposes while they are in the British Forces. Also, sir, this order deals with guaranteed employment when they come back from reserve time spent with Her Majesty’s Forces.

I wonder if, the next time Your Excellency, meeting with the British Government, the Chairman of Executive Council or whoever does meet them, could raise the matter of the situation where Manx people serving in Her Majesty’s forces are denied the privilege of claiming their mortgages for their properties in their homeland, unlike their British counterparts.

The Speaker: Your Excellency, I rise to express concern about the application of the Order in Council this way. For many years I have been a consistent advocate

Reserve Forces Act 1980, of Parliament — Reserve Forces Act 1982, of Parliament - Reserve Forces (Safeguard of Employment) Act 1985, of Parliament — Extension to The Isle of Man — Approved TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T115 of the Isle of Man tabling its own legislation and not getting involved in Orders in Council. This is a particularly important matter relating to reserve forces. The Isle of Man has been consistent in supporting the United Kingdom in relation to forces of this character. But at all times I believe the decision and the handling of the reserve force pattern should be in the hands of the Manx Government and not in the hands of another Government, and to that end I would make my protest about it being applied by Order in Council rather than through the medium of Island legislation.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, This item can be quite confusing. In fact it is an application of a consolidation Act combining a whole list of Acts previous to 1980, which goes back as far as the militia, the naval volunteers and other ancient Acts which may or may not applied completely to the Isle of Man. Therefore, it is not changing anything; it is consolidating the existing legislation that is applied. It does of course in the latter part; the Reserve Forces Act 1982 did make some minor amendments to take into account the Territorial Army as a reserve force and does contain safeguards as far as re-instatement of employment and the determination of disputes in re-instatement committees and appeals and so on. I agree that it does not or does not seem to cater for mortgage repayments, the thing mentioned, specifically, as far as I can determine. I think that is correct.

As far as Mr. Speaker’s references are concerned, of course none of us like to apply United Kingdom legislation to the Isle of Man and it has been a normal practice for Manx Bills to be presented to achieve possibly the same end or certainly an end very similar but within the Manx context. I am assured that never before has any Manx legislation applied to the armed forces of the Crown, that this has always previously been applied as a result of the obligation or defence obligations of the United Kingdom. I am certainly prepared to take this up next time we meet the United Kingdom Government officials. But that is the current state of affairs and that is the measure here before you. I beg to move the extension of the Reserve Forces Acts.

The Governor: Will all those hon. members in favour say aye; those against no. The ayes have it.

CABLE AND BROADCASTING ACT 1984, OF PARLIAMENT — (COMPUTER SOFTWARE) AMENDMENT ACT 1985, OF PARLIAMENT EXTENSION TO THE ISLE OF MAN —APPROVED

The Governor: Item 46. I call upon the Chairman of Executive Council.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That Her Majesty be respectfully requested to direct, by Order in Council, that the provisions o f the Cable and Broadcasting Act 1984, of Parliament, so far as it amends the Copyright Act 1956, and o f the Copyright (Computer

Cable and Broadcasting Act 1984, of Parliament — Copywright (Computer Software) Amendment Act 1985, of Parliament — Extension to The Isle of Man — Approved TI 16 TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985

Software) Amendment Act 1985, o f Parliament, shall extend to the Isle o f Man with appropriate exceptions, adaptations and modifications.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT 1984, OF PARLIAMENT — EXTENSION TO THE ISLE OF MAN — APPROVED

The Governor: Item 47, Friendly Societies Act. I call upon the Chairman of Executive Council.

Dr. Mann: Your Excellency, I beg to move:

That Her Majesty be respectfully requested to direct, by Order in Council, that sections 1 and 2 o f the Friendly Societies A ct 1984, o f Parliament, shall extend to the Isle of Man with appropriate exceptions, adaptations and modifications.

The Governor: Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

WHITLEY COUNCIL (OFFICIAL SIDE) — MR. RADCLIFFE ELECTED MEMBER

The Governor: Item 48, to elect one member of Tynwald, being a Member of the Legislative Council, to be a member of the Whitley Council (Official Side) in the place of Mr. Anderson. The Selection Committee have recommended Mr. J.N. Radcliffe. I take it that there is no other nomination. Is that agreed?

It was agreed.

WHITLEY COUNCIL (MANUAL WORKERS) (OFFICIAL SIDE) - MR. RADCLIFFE ELECTED MEMBER

The Governor: Item 49, to elect one member of Tynwald, being a Member of the Legislative Council, to be a member of the Whitley Council (Manual Workers) (Official Side) in the place of Mr. Anderson. The Selection Committee have recommended Mr. J.N. Radcliffe. Is that agreed?

Friendly Societies Act 1984, of Parliament — Extension to The Isle of Man —- Approved Whitley Council (Official Side) — Mr. Radcliffe Elected Member Whitley Council (Manual Workers) (Official Side) — Mr. Radcliffe Elected Member TYNWALD COURT, TUESDAY, 15th OCTOBER, 1985 T117

It was agreed.

MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT

Mr. G.V.H. Kneale: I move, sir, that we now adjourn.

Dr. Mann: I second.

The Governor: Do hon. members wish to adjourn? Then we adjourn until 10.30 tomorrow morning, hon. members. Thank you.

The Court adjourned at 6.10 p.m.

Motion for Adjournment