PETER KOGLER Jedinstvena poetika – različiti znakovi

PETER KOGLER Unique Poetics – Diverse Signs

razgovarali interviewed by fotografije photographs by Atelier Peter Kogler (ak); Arhiva / Archive Boris Podrecca Architekten / Atelier Peter Kogler (apk) Heidi Berkensträtter (hb); Robert Fleck (rf) Rainer Iglar (ri); Werner Maschmann (wm) Dirk Pauwels (dp); Iris Ranzinger (ir) Margherita Spiluttini (ms); Marta Ziegelböck (mz) Vera Grimmer Boris Podrecca portreti portraits Heidi Berkensträtter

Razgovarali u Beču 23. lipnja 2014. Interviewed in , 23 June 2014

¶ Peter Kogler jedan je od rijetkih umjetnika čije radove ¶ Peter Kogler is one of the rare artists whose works are daily dnevno vide deseci tisuća putnika i prolaznika, no istovre- seen by dozens of thousands of travellers and passers-by, but meno on je protagonist umjetničkih događanja u ekskluziv- who is also the protagonist of artistic events held at exclusive nijim europskim muzejima i galerijama. Njegov univerzalni European museums and galleries. His universal language of jezik znakova, često deriviranih iz svakodnevnice, razvija spe- signs, often derived from everyday life, develops a specific idi- cifičnu, osebujnu poetiku. Uporaba sofisticiranih digitalnih osyncratic poetics. Sophisticated digital programmes are not programa nije sama sebi svrha, već vodi stvaranju neizvjesnih, used for their own sake, but their use results in the creation of magičnih prostora. Radi se često o očuđenju jednostavnih unpredictable magical areas. Mostly it is about the estrange- motiva (mrav, moždane vijuge, cijevi) koji onda izazivaju efekt ment of simple motifs (ant, brain, pipes), which results in iznenađenja, pa i šoka. Kao sljedbenik američkih umjetnika surprise, and even shock. As the follower of American artists, Jackson Pollocka, Donalda Judda, Sol LeWitta – Kogler – u Jackson Pollock, Donald Judd or Sol LeWitt, in his all over ideas svojim all over idejama negira svaku hijerarhiju kao i klasične, Kogler denies any hierarchy, as well as the classicial principles principe kompozicije, da bi stvorio vlastiti svijet, često reali- of the composition in order to create his own world, often also ziran i u virtualnom prostoru. realised in a virtual area.

210 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 211 akcionizmu, pozicijama koje su bile ekstremno egzistenci- What was the extent of the relation, or parallelism, or even jalno orijentirane, pa su čak išle i preko granica egzistencije? opposition, towards the Viennese Actionism, the position ¶ peter kogler — Odnos postoji na manje-više humori- which was extremely existentially oriented, even beyond stičan način. Posve jasno: akcionizam kao citat, golo tijelo the boundaries of the existential? ¶ peter kogler — The na izložbi, ali potpuno bez psihoanalitičke drame, sasvim relation is more or less humorous. Actionism as a quotation, sigurno bez katarze. naturally; naked body at an exhibition, yet completely without vera grimmer — Bez katarze kao osnovnog elementa psychoanalytic drama, and definitely without catharsis. europske umjetnosti? ¶ peter kogler — Vjerojatno, Vera grimmer — Without catharsis as the basic element of posebnu u bečkoj tradiciji. European art? ¶ peter kogler — Probably, especially in the vera grimmer — Kod Vas se može osjetiti ta distanca. Viennese tradition. ¶ peter kogler — Postoji distanca, ali to je kraj 70-ih, tu vera grimmer — We can feel a distance in your work. se u principu pojavljuje konceptualni, performativni pristup. ¶ peter kogler — There is a distance, but that was at the U mojoj generaciji nitko nije slikao, 80-ih se je slikarstvo end of the 1970s; then the conceptual, performative approach opet vratilo. emerged. In my generation nobody painted, painting returned boris podrecca — Dodao bih da je bečka ili austrijska umjet- in the 1980s. nost uvijek bila psihoanalitička, dok to što Peter Kogler radi boris podrecca — I would also like to add that Viennese or predstavlja demarkacijsku liniju između umjetnosti i znanosti. Austrian art has always been psychoanalytical, while Peter Ta pripovijest je znatno smionija od tog tijela, duše, tog mesa, Kogler’s work represents a demarcation line between art and boris podrecca — Vjerojatno Vam je to pitanje već postav- boris podrecca — You have probably discussed this before, povrede i rane, tog prikrivenog katoličanstva u pozadini, kao science. A story is significantly bolder than the body, the soul, ljano, ali ne poznajem ni jednog drugog umjetnika iz tirolskog but you are the only Tyrolian artist that I know of whose kod Nitscha ili Brusa. Postoji teza da su umjetnost i znanost the flesh and the wound, the hidden Catholicism in the back- krajolika u čijem djelu nema nikakvog objekta, metafore ili work shows no object, metaphor or recollection of landscape. dva odvojena pola. Mislim da Koglerovi radovi to razgraniče- ground, as with Nitsch or Brus. There is a thesis that art and sjećanja na pejzaž. Je li možda u Vašem životu bilo suviše Was there, perhaps, too much nature in your life so that your nje ublažuju. Tu je jasni rez kroz pikseliziranost umjetničkog science represent two separate poles. I believe that Kogler’s 5 minutna instalacija, prirode, tako da su Vaši motivi – cijevi, mreže i slično – neka motifs – pipes, networks, etc. are a sort of a rebellion against djela, rekao bih metaforički; nalaženje nove poetike koja tu works loosen the boundary. There is a clear cut through the Galerie nächst ¶ ¶ St. Stephan, Beč, vrsta otpora prema krajoliku? peter kogler — Nisam landscape? peter kogler — I am not so sure that I am granicu ublažava. To je tvrdnja, a istovremeno i pitanje koje pixelisation of the work of art – I would say metaphorically Austrija, 1979. siguran da sam jedini, mislim da se radi o fenomenu vezanom the only one; I think it is a phenomenon of my generation. možete komentirati. ¶ peter kogler — Za rad koristim – a new poetics which softens the boundary. It is a statement za moju generaciju. To o čemu govorite odnosi se na genera- Your words apply to the generation before ours; Pichler, tehnologiju, nastojim se informirati o tome što se događa na and, at the same time, a question which can be commented. 5 minute installation, ciju prije naše: dakle, Pichler, Abraham i drugi imali su snažan Abraham and others had a powerful relationship with land- polju znanosti, a ipak moram kazati: znanost je znanost, a ¶ peter kogler — I employ technology in my work, I try to Galerie nächst St. odnos prema krajoliku. U njihovim radovima krajolik zauzima scape. Landscape has a central position in their work. There umjetnost je umjetnost. be informed about the activities in the field of science, but I Stephan, Vienna, , 1979

posve centralnu ulogu. U mojoj generaciji ima niz primjera u are numerous artists of my generation in whose work such vera grimmer — To su odvojena područja, ali zbivanja have to stress that science is science, and art is art. (rf) kojima je vrlo teško uočiti takav odnos; pomišljam na umjet- a relationship is hard to find, e.g. artists such as Ernst Cara- u znanosti mogu biti relevantna za umjetnost. ¶ peter nike poput Ernsta Caramellea ili Martina Waldea. melle or Martin Walde. kogler — Upravo tako, 80-ih godina sam se posve svjesno boris podrecca — Postavlja se pitanje je li to bila Vaša boris podrecca — The question arises whether it was your odlučio za rad s računalom. U tom trenutku bilo je potpuno odluka ili ste bili preplavljeni tadašnjim aktualnim događa- decision, or were you overwhelmed by the events of the time? jasno da je to medij koji će tijekom dolazećih desetljeća suštin- njima? Naprosto, kod Vas ne postoji nigdje milje krajolika, There is no milieu of landscape; there is no passe-partout, ski odrediti naše razumijevanje slika, kao i njihovu produkciju. paspartua ili pozadina. ¶ peter kogler — Vjerojatno zato or a background to your work. ¶ peter kogler — Prob- boris podrecca — Upravo ta poetika demarkacijske linije jer je umjetnost uvijek bila moj referentni sustav za umjetnost. ably because art has always been my reference system for art. određuje objekte koji su konstruirani i izloženi bez miljea; tu Naročito, barem u prvom razdoblju, američka umjetnost, ne Especially, at least at first, American art, not so much Euro- nema žubora potoka, nema dodatnih sastojaka, djelo nema toliko europska, još manje austrijska, a pogotovo ne temeljena pean art, Austrian to an even lesser extent, and especially not paspartua. Objekti su to što jesu: konstruirani objekti, žaru- regionalno. Vjerojatno je ta nevezanost za austrijsku tradiciju regionally based art. My lack of connection with the Austrian lja, mrav… To su pojedinačni elementi u kojima su pojmovi povezana s činjenicom da je ranija generacija bila tako snažno tradition was undoubtedly related to the fact that the previ- umjetnost i znanost amalgamirani. Postoje li u Vašem radu prisutna. Mislim da je austrijski akcionizam bio najvažnija ous generation was so strongly present. I believe that Austrian paralelni elementi – prednji plan, pozadina, glavna tema, spo- pojava kojoj se ništa više nije moglo dodati; ta je pripovijest Actionism was the most important phenomenon, and that redna tema, ima li tih sekvenci slojeva u Vašem djelu ili su to bila okončana. there was nothing that could be added to the movement; that uvijek sasvim jasni motivi, posve jasni ideogrami kako ih ja vera grimmer — Vaši počeci krajem 70-ih godina vezani su was a closed story. poznajem? ¶ peter kogler — Izgleda da se radi o pregled- ipak za umjetnost performansa u galerijama Krinzinger, tada vera grimmer — Yet, your beginnings in the 1970s are con- nom vizualnom vokabularu. Tijekom godina je nastala neka u Innsbrucku i St. Stefan u Beču. U kojoj mjeri je tu posto- nected with the performance art at the Krinzinger Galleries, vrsta vizualnog jezika koji se sastoji od pojedinačnih modula, jao odnos ili paralelnost ili pak suprotnost prema bečkom at the time located in Innsbruck and St. Stefan in Vienna. a značenje tih elemenata se mijenja ovisno o kontekstu.

212 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 213 (ri) ¶ peter kogler — Ne bih to rekao. Na izvjesni način tu je of individual modules, and the meaning of these elements is univerzalni vokabular, ali s druge strane razvija ga se speci- changing depending on the context. fično za jedno mjesto, jedan projekt. Nije moguće projekt A boris podrecca — These pictograms, motifs are never spe- transferirati po volji, projekt je uvijek ovisan o konkretnom cific in relation to the location. ¶ peter kogler — The idea prostoru. Postaja podzemne željeznice je sasvim nešto drugo is to develop a universal language. od galerijskog prostora ili škole. boris podrecca — There is no need for action in your soli- boris podrecca — Dakle, iako predmet stoji za sebe, postoji tary pictograms… Ideogram represents poetics in itself. kontekstualnost. ¶ peter kogler — Vrlo je usklađen sa vera grimmer — However when they are transferred in specifičnim mjestom. Bitni parametri, poput izbora motiva ili space, a milieu with specific relations is created.¶ peter mjerilo, usklađeni su s kontekstom. kogler — It is secondary; the visual vocabulary is in the fore- boris podrecca — U vezi Vašeg rada za našu postaju pod- ground, e.g. the brain, and the second component is, doubt- zemne željeznice u Napulju: dok u teatru postoje prolog, less, the relation towards architecture. I would like to mention glavna radnja, epilog, to je kompaktna masa – kod Vas je that the history of the origin of the pictogram is related to the sve beskrajno, nesagledivo. Kod Heideggera postoji pojam Viennese tradition. Otto Neurath’s intention was to commu- protegnutosti, ne vrijeme (Zeit), već vremenost (Zeitigkeit), nicate complex content with the help of a visual vocabulary, protegnuta masa sastoji se od određenih slika koje se ponav- regardless of the social or cultural background. ljaju u sekvencama. Međutim, to je lanac koji nije svezan, već boris podrecca — The idea of the contextual is interesting razvučen. ¶ peter kogler — Vi to možete tako kazati. Ono to us architects, whether we wanted it or not. We do not što je u mom radu konstantno je ideja all over, struktura koja work in an empty space, or on a single surface. The milieu is nema središta, već se proteže, ali ima određeno mjerilo. Pro- always there – provoking us to create our work. What you log, glavni dio, završni dio; moj rad je upravo suprotnost toga. are doing is, basically, the opposite from this architectural Jedva da u mom radu ima ikakve hijerarhijske strukturiranosti. attitude, it is anti-contextuality.¶ peter kogler — I would vera grimmer — Kada dođete u neki prostor, uzimate li not say so. There is always a certain universal vocabulary, but prostor kao takav u obzir ili ima i radova usmjerenih protiv it is developed specifically for one place, one project. It is not possible to transfer project A on a whim; a project always Gradska vijećnica Innsbruck, Austrija, 2002. depends on a specific space. A subway station is completely City Hall, Innsbruck, Austria, 2002 different from a gallery or a school.

Expo 2000, Gradska vijećnica boris podrecca — Ti piktogrami, ti motivi nisu nikada vera grimmer — They are separate areas, but activi- Hannover, Innsbruck, Austrija, specifični u odnosu na mjesto. ¶ peter kogler — Ideja je ties in the field of science can be relevant for art.¶ peter Njemačka, 2000. 2002. razvijanje univerzalnog jezika. kogler — Exactly. In the 1980s I consciously decided to

Expo 2000, City Hall, Innsbruck, boris podrecca — Na Vašim soliternim piktogramima nema work with the computer. Back then it was absolutely clear Hannover, Austria, 2002 potrebe za radnjom… Ideogram je sam po sebi poetika. that it is a medium which will completely determine the way Germany, 2000 (ri) vera grimmer — Međutim, kad prijeđu u prostor, nastaje we understand images, as well as their production. milje s određenim odnosima. ¶ peter kogler — To je na boris podrecca — It is this poetics of the demarcation line (ak) drugom mjestu; na prvom je vizualni vokabular, na primjer which determines the objects that have been constructed and moždane vijuge, a druga komponenta je vjerojatno odnos exposed without the milieu; there is no murmur of the creek, prema arhitekturi. Htio bih napomenuti da je povijest there are no extra elements, the work has no passe-partout. nastanka piktograma vezana za bečku tradiciju. Intencija Otta The objects are what they are; constructed objects, a bulb, Neuratha bila je da se pomoću vizualnog vokabulara, neovi- an ant… They are individual elements where the terms of art snog o socijalnoj ili kulturnoj pozadini, mogu komunicirati and science have been amalgamated. Are there any parallel kompleksni sadržaji. elements in your work – the foreground, the background, boris podrecca — Htjeli-ne htjeli, za nas arhitekte zanimljiv the main topic, the secondary topic, are there sequences of je pojam kontekstualnog. Ne radimo u praznom prostoru, ne these layers in your work, or are there always completely clear radimo na jednoj površini. Milje je uvijek prisutan pa nas pro- motifs, ideograms as I know them? ¶ peter kogler — It vocira da napravimo djelo. U suštini je to što radite suprot- seems that there is a transparent visual vocabulary; over the nost ovakvog arhitektonskog stava, antikontekstualnost. years a kind of a visual language was developed, which consists

214 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 215 Za rad koristim tehnologiju, boris podrecca — So, although object is individual, there is a contextual element. ¶ peter kogler — It is greatly har- nastojim se informirati o tome monised with a specific location. Important parameters, such što se događa na polju znanosti, as the selection of motifs, or the scale, have been harmonised with the context. ali znanost je znanost, a boris podrecca — If we look at your work for our subway umjetnost je umjetnost station in , we can see that it is a compact mass, end- less, limitless, unlike the prologue, the main action, and the epilogue in theatre. Heidegger has a term for duration; it is not time (Zeit), but temporality (Zeitigkeit); a mass stretched I use technology in my work, through time consists of certain images which repeat in I try to be informed about the sequences. It is a chain which is not confined, but extended. ¶ peter kogler — You can put it that way. The constant activities in the field of science, element in my work is the idea all over, the structure which but science is science and art is art has no centre, but is stretched and has a certain scale. The prologue, the main part, the final part… my work is com- pletely opposite. There is barely any hierarchical structure in my work. vera grimmer — When you enter a space, do you take it into consideration, or are there works which are directed against it, those which break it? In that case, it would be anti-con- textual. ¶ peter kogler — Both. Even if you act against a

prostora, koji prostor razbijaju. U tom bi slučaju bila riječ o space, you have to understand its structure. I would like to za predmete. Dakle, uvijek postoji zona napetosti između passe-partout for the items. So there is always the zone of Stanica metroa San antikontekstualnom. ¶ peter kogler — Ima i jednog i dru- mention my project for the Vienna Secession, which was actu- profanog i dostojanstvenog, baroknog. To nije svakodnevna tension between the profane and the dignified, the baroque. Pasquale, Napulj, Italija, u izgradnji gog, pa i kad se djeluje protiv prostora, pretpostavka je razu- ally the first White Cube. The building dates back to the late pojava, to me u Vašem radu zanima. Kada ste počeli oblikovati It is not something we can see every day – that is what I

mijevanje njegove strukture. S time u vezi, spomenuo bih svoj 19th century, but it is a prototype of a modern exhibition area. temu ljuske i jezgre? ¶ peter kogler — Taj arhitektonski am interested in your work. When did you start formulating San Pasquale Station, projekt za Bečku secesiju (Wiener Sezession), koja je zapravo Back then I made orthogonal installations; they consisted of aspekt, u odnosu na prostore, na zgrade, pojavio se 80-ih the shell and the core? ¶ peter kogler — This architectural Naples, , under construction bila prvi White Cube. Zgrada je iz kasnog 19. stoljeća, ali je pro- horizontal and vertical lines. The Secession space is orthogo- godina. Točnije, krajem 80-ih kada sam radio slike – objekte, aspect, in relation with spaces and buildings, emerged in the totip modernog izložbenog prostora. Tada sam radio instalacije nal; everything I did on the model could have been applied to onda sam počeo tapecirati i zidove na kojima su bili izloženi; 1980s. More precisely, at the end of the 1980s, when I made (apk) ortogonalne strukture; sastojale su se od horizontala i vertikala. the actual space. Taking that as a starting point I opted for dakle, slika se protegla u prostor. the pictures – the objects, then I started upholstering the Prostor Secesije je ortogonalan, sve što sam na modelu napravio, an opposite principle; to give up the orthogonal. I developed boris podrecca — Prvo je bio prostor, a potom predmet? walls, and the pictures were hanged on them, so that they bilo je primjereno stvarnom prostoru. Na osnovi toga sam se a project which enters into a dialogue with the actual space. ¶ peter kogler — Okvir slike je mjesto sučeljavanja arhitek- were expanded into space. odlučio za suprotan princip: odustati od ortogonalnog. Razvio The space of the images was thus created, defined by a thin, ture i slike. To je bila tema već 80-ih godina, interes za odnos boris podrecca — First there was space, and then the sam projekt koji sa stvarnim prostorom stupa u dijalog. Nastao glued layer of paper, wallpaper, a poster in relation with the slike i iluzionističkog prostora pomoću kojeg se slika definira object? ¶ peter kogler — The frame of the painting is the je prostor slike, definiran tankim, tek prilijepljenim slojem papira, present, actual space. i stvarnog prostora u kojem se nalazimo. meeting point of architecture and the painting. It was the tapetom, posterom, u odnosu prema prisutnom prostoru. boris podrecca — So even if a project breaks it, it starts vera grimmer — Ima li to veze s Vašim studijem scenogra- topic back in the 1980s, this interest in the relation between boris podrecca — Znači, iako ga projekt razbija, polazi od from the position of actual space. In the shaping of space, fije?¶ peter kogler — Prije s mojim bavljenjem američkom the painting and the illusionistic space which defines the pozicije stvarnog prostora. Temu pri oblikovanju prostora a topic is also presented with a shell and a core. On one umjetnošću, principima Minimal Arta, s osobama kao Donald painting, and the actual space we are situated in. predstavljaju također ljuska i jezgra. S jedne strane, tu je baro- hand, there is the baroque principle; the estrangement, the Judd ili Sol LeWitt, koji je centralna figura kada je riječ o umjet- vera grimmer — Is it connected with your studies of sce- kni princip, začudnost, povećanje, produbljivanje prostora, augmentation, the deepening of space, the musculature of ničkom tretmanu zida. nography? ¶ peter kogler — Rather with my interest in mogli bismo kazati muskulatura prostora. S druge strane, space, we could put it. On the other hand, you also create vera grimmer — Kad govorimo o referentnim osobama, u American art, principles of Minimal Art, artists like Donald Judd radite i uporabne predmete, nešto između umjetničkog usable items, something between the work of art and the prvi čas je iznenađujuće da spominjete Magritta, ali u sljede- or Sol LeWitt, the central figure in the art of wall treatment. djela i objekta. Tu je prisutan taj princip ljuske i jezgre. Kod object. The shell and the core principle are noticeable. In the ćem trenutku možda i ne. Naime, radi se o stvaranju prostora vera grimmer — When we talk about persons significant instalacija postavljate promatrača u centar akcije gdje postoji installations you place the observer in the centre of action, koji su neodređeni, nesigurni, ali fascinantni; koji napokon to you, it is surprising, at first, that you mentioned Magritte, mogućnost sudjelovanja, također haptički; razvija se osjećaj where there is the option to participate, also haptic; there djeluju magično. ¶ peter kogler — Da. Dakako, tu je još i but then again perhaps not; it is about the creation of spaces da se želi odgurnuti cijev koja pada. Provocirate tu želju da se is a desire to push the falling pipe. You provoke the desire uloga jezika. Od svih nadrealista, on je najsnažnije radio kon- which are unspecific, insecure, but also fascinating, even stvari dodirnu, participaciju, a istovremeno pravite paspartue to touch, to participate and, at the same time, you create a ceptualno – jezik, slika, predmet. magical. ¶ peter kogler — Yes, of course, there is also the

216 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 217 Bez naslova, Zgrada bečke Secesije, Beč, Austrija, 1995. Untitled, Secession Building, Vienna, Austria, 1995

(ms)

Stanica metroa boris podrecca — Kad promatram neku Magrittovu sliku, role of language. From all surrealists he was most conceptual koju je realizirao Luigi Blau. Iznutra su plavi zidovi svi bili kosi, Prince Orsini at Bomarzo, which was reproduced in front of Karlsplatz, Beč, nije tehnika ta koja prvo upada u oči, već iznenađenje, šok. in his work – the language, the images, the object. posjetitelja je spopala vrtoglavica, atmosfera je bila ponešto the building of the Vienna Künstlerhaus on the occasion of Austrija, 2011./2012. Kada sam prvi put vidio Vaše radove, bio sam iznenađen. boris podrecca — When I look at Magritte’s paintings, his zastrašujuća. Je li moguće Vaš rad dovesti u vezu s maniristič- the Mannerism exhibition designed by Luigi Blau. All the walls

Karlsplatz Metro Odakle dolazi taj mrav? Kada se priviknemo na te motive: technique is not the first thing I see – I am surprised, shocked. kim tendencijama? To je također bilo nešto u protivnosti sa in the interior were blue and slanted, visitors were dizzy, and Station, Vienna, mrav, cijev… onda je to abecedarij motiva, katalog iz kojega When I saw your works for the first time, I was surprised. stilom. ¶ peter kogler — Manirizam mi je uvijek bio drag, the atmosphere was somewhat frightening. Can your work Austria, 2011/2012 se može crpiti, već prema situaciji ih se može primijeniti ili Where does the ant come from? When we get used to the primjerice mali portret Parmigianina, koji visi ovdje u Beču. U be connected with Mannerist tendencies? They were also (ir) varirati. Druga faza percepcije je sposobnost da se to što je motifs, the ant, the pipe… then there is the alphabet of terms, manirizmu su dokučili vrlo mnogo toga što je za nadrealizam opposed to the style. ¶ peter kogler — I have always liked konotirano kao iznenađenje, primijeni. Kakva je glazba tog the catalogue which we can use or modify according to situa- postalo značajno. U manirizmu su, u izvjesnom smislu, sadr- Mannerism, for example, the small portrait of Parmigianino singulara, tog plurala, tih različitih mogućnosti primjene. Je tion. The other stage of perception is the ability to apply what žani brojni aspekti koji su dobili centralno značenje u umjet- which is displayed here in Vienna. Many things which became li iznenađenje Vaša svjesna strategija ili se razvilo samo od was implied as a surprise. What is the music of the singular, nosti moderne 20. stoljeća. Zanimljivo je da to podjednako important for Surrealism were discovered in Mannerism. Many sebe? ¶ peter kogler — Kad govorite o iznenađenju kod of the plural, of these different possibilities of application? Is vrijedi za nadrealizam kao i za konstruktivizam. aspects which became crucial for modern art of the 20th cen- Magritta, mislite na nadrealistički aspekt? surprise your conscious strategy, or did it developed sponta- boris podrecca — Prisjećam se jedne teze Lawrencea tury were aspects of Mannerism. It is interesting that the same boris podrecca — Kod Magritta ženska pidžama ima oblik neously? ¶ peter kogler — When you talk about surprise in Weinera. ¶ peter kogler — Mislite na njegovu misao da can be said for Surrealism and Constructivism. grudi, to je taj efekt šoka. relation to Magritte, you refer to the surrealist aspect? je umjetnost moguće konstruirati, moguće je ju oformiti, boris podrecca — Lawrence Weiner’s thesis comes to mind. vera grimmer — Radi se također o emocionalnosti, o tjele- boris podrecca — Female pyjamas have the shape of moguće je ju ne napraviti, može ostati formulirana kao kon- ¶ peter kogler — You mean his notion that art can be con- snim osjetima promatrača. Podsjetila bih na paviljon u vrtu breasts in Magritte’s painting; that is the effect of shock. cept. Sve su varijante jednako vrijedne. structed, fabricated, but even than it needs not be created and kneza Orsinija u Bomarzu, koji je bio reproduciran ispred vera grimmer — It is also about emotion; physical feel- boris podrecca — Pri promatranju Vaših prikaza mozga, left formulated as a concept; all variants are equally valuable. zgrade bečkog Künstlerhausa prigodom izložbe o manirizmu, ing of the observer. I would like to mention the Pavilion of mreža koje radite, za što sam na početku kazao da je to boris podrecca — When we observe your presentations

218 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 219 Ono što je u mom radu of the brain, of the networks you created, for which I earlier said that they were the demarcation line between art and konstantno je ideja all over, science, a question arises whether you would be interested struktura koja nema središta, već to shape a space with the help of a robot? An additional step in the sequence of art and science. According to the string se proteže, ali ima određeno mjerilo theory the real world, and not the imaginary, artificial world, consists of strings. Would you be interested in jumping out of this artificial world? ¶ peter kogler — It is always interest- The constant element in my work ing to work with the institutions which have these technical is the idea all over, the structure possibilities. In the 1990s I worked on a project labelled Cave, it was the first interactive Computer Environment. A visitor which has no centre, but is moved in space with 3D glasses on, and was under the influ- stretched, with a scale ence of space. I worked with Ars Electronica Center in Linz back then; it was a laboratory of sorts that I could use when- ever I wished, it was great. It is all possible if you can work with a partner who has technical possibilities, when you work in a studio, it is not possible. It is interesting if you can work with someone, but that, naturally, depends on the projects. Tech- nology is interesting only to an extent, in relation to specific programmes. Good art rarely results from festivals which are demarkacijska linija između umjetnosti i znanosti, postav- extremely technical. The best results come from the people lja se pitanje bi li Vas zanimalo oblikovati prostor uz pomoć who work on art projects for a longer period of time, which robota? Dakle, korak dalje u slijedu umjetnosti i znanosti. are then compatible with specific media. Postoji teorija struna, od struna se sastoji stvarni svijet, ne boris podrecca — You also do collages. Collage is an old zamišljeni, umjetni svijet. Bi li Vas zanimalo iskočiti iz ovog technique, dating back practically to Gutenberg; from cal- umjetnog svijeta? ¶ peter kogler — Uvijek je interesantno ligraphy, ornament and other techniques to the information raditi zajedno s institucijama koje posjeduju takve tehničke carrier. Your collages are basically mosaics, compositions mogućnosti. 90-ih godina sam radio na jednom projektu s of information carriers which stimulate you, but need not oznakom Cave, to je tada bio prvi interaktivni Computer necessarily have a common context. ¶ peter kogler — We Environment, posjetitelj se s 3D naočalama kretao prosto- talked about the vocabulary I developed, which is transparent rom i prostor je na njega djelovao. Tada sam surađivao s Ars and consists of perhaps 10 or 15 modules, signs; it is one side of Electronica Centrom u Linzu. To je bio manje-više laboratorij my work, the intensive shape of selections and limitations. On koji sam imao na raspolaganju, bilo je sjajno. To je sve moguće the other hand, in the last couple of years I began working on a ako se možeš pridružiti partneru s tehničkim mogućnostima; series of works, wherein I do something completely opposite. u situaciji atelijera sve to nije moguće. Interesantno je ako se I start by applying as much information as it is possible on the

možeš pridružiti, ali to naravno ovisi o projektu. Tehnika kao surfaces. These are the images I cut from newspapers; down- razvio i koji je pregledan; sastoji se možda od 10 ili 15 modula, the background; a different level, which is not only visual, Glavni kolodvor, Graz, takva je samo u ograničenom smislu zanimljiva, zanimljiva je u load from the Internet, everything which we are confronted znakova. To je jedna strana mog rada, intenzivni oblik izbora i informative? ¶ peter kogler — I cannot say; it will prob- Austrija, 2003.

odnosu na određene programe. Dobra umjetnost rijetko dolazi with every day. In a way we all function as a filter; this stream ograničenja. S druge strane, posljednjih sam godina počeo sa ably become clear through the activity itself. The basic idea Central Station, Graz, od izrazito tehničkih festivala. Najbolji su doprinosi obično od of information goes through us; some things are then found in serijom radova gdje radim upravo suprotno. Počinjem na povr- was that the confrontation with information has significantly Austria, 2003 ljudi koji tijekom dužeg perioda rade na umjetničkim projek- the short-term memory, and some in the long-term memory. šine nanositi što više informacija. To su slike koje izrezujem iz radicalised during the last couple of years. Details reveal how (ak) tima, koji su onda kompatibilni sa specifičnim medijima. It is interesting to see that we are thus conditioned. It was novina, skidam s interneta, sve ono čime smo svakodnevno radically our everyday life has changed in the last decade as boris podrecca — Radite i kolaže. Kolaž je stari instru- interesting for me to learn what often occurs with me; this is konfrontirani. U izvjesnom smislu mi funkcioniramo poput a result of new media. Have a look at how you spend your ment, gotovo još od Gutenberga, od kaligrafije, ornamenta surprise and self-reflection. filtra, kroz nas naprosto prolazi ta struja informacija. Neke typical working day – do you read e-mails when you come to i sličnog, sve do nositelja informacije. Zapravo, Vaš kolaž je boris podrecca — This mosaic of information that you col- stvari se onda nađu u kratkotrajnoj memoriji, a druge opet u the bureau, does your working day start that way? How much mozaik, kompozicija nositelja informacije koji te stimuliraju, lect from various media sources, the digitalisation; is it just dugoročnoj memoriji. Interesantno je kako smo u tom smislu time do you spend dealing with information? Then there are ali možda nužno ne stoje u nekom zajedničkom kontekstu. a transcript of reality that you deposit with the help of the uvjetovani. Zanimljivo mi je saznati što se kod mene osobno the newspapers, then you have to watch football; it is all a ¶ peter kogler — Razgovarali smo o vokabularu koji sam system of connection, or is there a kind of social criticism in učestalo pojavljuje, to je iznenađenje i samorefleksija. continuous process of absorption.

220 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 221

boris podrecca — Taj mozaik informacija koje prikupljate iz boris podrecca — I have numerous e-mails to read. The Documenta X, različitih medijskih izvora, digitalizacije, je li to tek transkript fact is also that everything is possible, anything goes, and at Documentahalle, Kassel, Njemačka, 1997. stvarnosti koji deponirate pomoću sustava povezivanja ili iza the same time. ¶ peter kogler — It is a new, important,

toga stoji neka vrsta društvene kritike, neka druga razina, a and radical aspect of our culture. Documenta X, ne samo vizualna, informativna? ¶ peter kogler — To boris podrecca — It is about the divergence of motifs; Documentahalle, Kassel, Germany, 1997 ne mogu ocijeniti, vjerojatno je tu nešto što se razjašnjava there is no order. In this mass of motifs they explode simul- kroz samu djelatnost. Osnovna misao je bila da se posljednjih taneously, in the same place. A classic cubistic collage is used (wm) godina konfrontacija s informacijama snažno radikalizirala. Po for what an oil painting was not able to do. Elements of real- detaljima možemo vidjeti kako se ozbiljno, zbog novih medija, ity have been collaged so that an object is deconstructed; this izmijenila naša svakodnevnica u posljednjih deset godina. has become a trendy word nowadays, let us use shattered Documenta IX, Muzej Pogledajte vlastiti svakodnevni radni dan. Čitate li e-mailove instead. Fridericianum, Kassel, Njemačka, 1992. kad dođete u biro, počinje li tako Vaš radni dan? Koliko dugo se vera grimmer — It is also the montage of attractions, as bavite samo informacijama; onda su tu novine, zatim morate with Eisenstein. Opposites are connected, and it leads to a Documenta IX, gledati nogomet – sve to predstavlja konstantno apsorbiranje. new expression. ¶ peter kogler — The Russians were espe- Museum Fridericianum, Kassel, Germany, 1992 boris podrecca — Očekuje me bezbroj e-mailova. Također, cially influential at that part of the 20th century; Rodchenko, činjenica je da je sve moguće, anything goes – i to simultano. Eisenstein, Mayakovsky in literature… (dp) ¶ peter kogler — To je novi, značajni, radikalni aspekt naše vera grimmer — You work with architects – what do these kulture. processes look like? Is it about interaction or creating the boris podrecca — Radi se i o divergentnosti motiva, ne conditions? For example, the collaboration with Dominique postoji neki red. U svojoj masi motivi eksplodiraju istovremeno, Perrault in Innsbruck, or your current cooperation in Naples.

222 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 223 How does it happen? ¶ peter kogler — It is actually always about dialogue. We talk about structures, about given char- acteristics, about what we can do, and which media are the most effective. boris podrecca — Naples is specific, I have never done anything like that before; we are building under water; we are actually building a submarine. Peter basically dissolves the matter when you enter the area, there is no wall on the left, or on the right; there are no boundaries, no borderlines. These fluid elements create an undefined, endless area. Architectural and artistic intentions overlap here. ¶ peter kogler — The space is enormous, 90 m long and 25 m high; we have used biomorphic shapes. boris podrecca — It takes art; I cannot achieve it with my facilities. I did not want something trivial, Transavanguar- dia, divers, or the submarines. That brought me into conflict with the curator Bonito Oliva; I told him that I was sorry, but that it was not my world; that I needed the abstraction. It is important that art is not just a glued postage stamp. The whole project represents the biggest European museum, with the works of Kentridge, Pistoletto, Kounellis, Bob Wilson and many other artists. It is not just an area that you simply go through; it is also an area that you observe. You do not have to fall on your knees in front of a work of art; it is perceived in a specific tempo of arrivals and departures. It is enough for

Bez naslova, u isto vrijeme na istom mjestu. Klasični kubistički kolaž kori- the area which you go through. ¶ peter kogler — I have i umjetnička namjera. ¶ peter kogler — Prostor je ogro- certain perfection; your place resembles a pharmacy. Per- Wahlverwandtschaften, kolaž, 2013. šten je za ono što uljena slika sama nije uzmogla. Elementi noticed that when I participate at exhibitions, like Documenta, man, 90 metara dugačak i 25 metara visok, tu su upotrijebljeni fection also has an aesthetic charm. Is there anything which Wiener Festwochen, Beč, Austrija, 1999.

Untitled, stvarnosti su kolažirani tako da je predmet dekonstruiran – I always remain in the entrance hall, on the staircase; very biomorfni oblici. would resemble a generator of coincidence in your work? Is collage, 2013 to je pomodna riječ – razbijen. rarely at the typical exhibition area. It probably depends on my boris podrecca — Za to je potrebna umjetnost; ja sa svojim there a moment wherein a pure coincidence generates an Wahlverwandtschaften, vera grimmer — To je također montaža atrakcija, kao kod work, which is quite significant information, which can be rela- sredstvima to ne mogu postići. Nisam htio nešto banalno, image? ¶ peter kogler — I think this is always the case, Wiener Festwochen, (ak) Vienna, Austria, 1999 Eisensteina. Povezuju se suprotnosti, a to vodi do novog tively quickly perceived. If we transfer this to the structures transavangardu, ronioce, podmornice. Tako sam došao u kon- because this is the way we work; we react in the heat of the iskaza. ¶ peter kogler — Rusi su bili nadasve značajni of the city, those become railway stations, subway stations; flikt s kustosom Bonitom Olivom; kazao sam da žalim, ali to moment. It is hard to say what is coincidental, and what is (mz) u to doba 20. stoljeća: Rodčenko, Eisenstein, a u literaturi simply city synapses wherein traffic roads and information nije moj svijet, trebam apstrakciju. Važno je da umjetnost conditional. The digital system is so complex; you can leave Majakovski… channels connect. ne bude tek prilijepljena poštanska marka. Cijeli taj projekt at any junction, press any button. vera grimmer — Surađujete s arhitektima; kako izgledaju vera grimmer — The public is also important; such inter- predstavlja najveći europski muzej, zastupljeni su Kentridge, boris podrecca — Do you ever have any expectations when ti procesi, je li riječ o interakciji ili o postavljanju uvjeta? Pri- ventions have a very wide influence.¶ peter kogler — The Pistoletto, Kounellis, Bob Wilson i mnogi drugi umjetnici. To you are creating something, only for the generator of coinci- mjerice, suradnja s Dominiqueom Perraultom u Innsbrucku vocabulary which does not require an educated audience is nije samo mjesto prolaženja, već i promatranja. Nije potrebno dence to change them? ¶ peter kogler — Yes, because we ili suradnja vas dvojice sada u Napulju. Kako se to odvija? applied. pred umjetničkim djelom padati na koljena, percipira ga se u create works of art; otherwise we could only limit ourselves ¶ peter kogler — Zapravo je uvijek riječ o dijalogu. Raz- boris podrecca — Art without a degree, so to say, not in izvjesnom tempu dolazaka i odlazaka. To dostaje za takav to a concept. While you are completing something you see govaramo o strukturama, datostima, što ima smisla, koji su a negative sense; perception is very brief, you need to react. prostor prolaženja. ¶ peter kogler — Upalo mi je u oči da whether it suits a purpose, and whether there was a mistake mediji najefektivniji. The signs have to be relatively intensive; they have to have se prigodom izložbi, to je bio slučaj i kod Dokumente, uvijek that needed to be fixed. boris podrecca — U Napulju je naročita situacija, tako an element of shock – otherwise they are not noticed. Since ponovno nađem u ulaznoj hali, na stubištu, vrlo rijetko u klasič- boris podrecca — The line is very thin; sometimes, when I nešto nisam još nikada radio; gradimo pod vodom, zapravo I cannot achieve this as an architect, I need an artist, not to nom izložbenom prostoru. Vjerojatno to ovisi o mom radu, koji draw in pencil, I get a call, my hand swerves, and, unexpect- gradimo podmornicu. To što radi Peter je razgradnja materije, fasten a tie on a suit, so to say, but to be able to realise a je informacija s izvjesnom značajnošću, koju je moguće relativno edly, a new line is created. Coincidence generator is desir- kad dođeš u taj prostor nema ni lijevo ni desno zida, ne vide specific architectural purpose – to expand a space, change brzo percipirati. Prenesemo li to na gradske strukture, onda su able; it cannot be bad, it is either good, or indifferent. There se granice, nema razgraničenja. Ti fluidni elementi stvaraju a space and other spatial categories by a parallel expression to doista kolodvori, postaje podzemne željeznice, naprosto are similarities with the digital system; while technology is, nedefinirani, beskrajni prostor. Tu se preklapaju arhitektonska of art and architecture. Your work can be characterised by gradske sinapse; tu se spajaju prometnice, informacijski kanali. definitely, completely different.¶ peter kogler — They

224 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 225 kogler — You are referring to the continuous vocabulary during a long period of time? boris podrecca — You use the variants of the same topic. Something new always occurs, but you use these elements depending on the location, on your mood, or a planned expression. It is the other compared with the artists who always produce the same. That apriorism is, naturally, very good. Marino Tartaglia’s View through the Window is an end- less variation of one and the same thing. vera grimmer — Julije Knifer’s work as well. boris podrecca — Absolutely, that is an excellent example. I think that the principle of the other in the same applies to Peter. The poetics is one, but the consisting elements are different. It can very often be attributed to the architects, as well; Mario Botta always produces variants of the same. ¶ peter kogler — I think that we have returned to the issue of art and science. It is about a limitation to a specific vocabulary. On the other hand, I always do series. The pro-

Atelijer Kogler, vera grimmer — Od značaja je također javnost, takvi zahvati are enormous in such a complex digital system. There are sklizne i odjednom je tu novi pravac. Taj generator slučaj- cess is serial; in a way analogous to the work in the labora- Beč, Austrija, imaju vrlo široko djelovanje. ¶ peter kogler — Primjenjuje numerous possibilities, and we are very slow; we need time nosti je poželjan, ne može biti loš, tek dobar ili indiferentan. tory. You simply have a specific number of parameters you izlošci se vokabular koji ne zahtijeva obrazovanu publiku. to understand. Ima sličnosti s digitalnim sustavom; dakako, tehnika je posve use; you observe what happens, the way it looks. You try to

Atelier Kogler, ¶ boris podrecca — Takoreći, umjetnost bez mature, ali boris podrecca — You told me that you draw, as well. različita. peter kogler — Kod tako kompleksnog digital- maintain a certain level of control over your activity, coinci- Vienna, Austria, ne u negativnom smislu; naprosto percepcija je vrlo kratka, ¶ peter kogler — I have always been drawing. nog sustava, to je enormno. Sadržane su brojne mogućnosti, dence always plays a role of its own. If you change too many exhibits tu treba reagirati. Znakovi moraju biti relativno intenzivni, boris podrecca — You used to draw parallel with the a mi smo suviše spori, treba nam puno vremena da shvatimo. parameters at the same time, you can no longer determine (hb) moraju imati efekt šoka, inače ih se ne primjećuje. Budući computer system. ¶ peter kogler — I only drew on screen boris podrecca — Rekli ste mi da i crtate. ¶ peter what is leading you in a specific direction. I do not like to da sa svojim mogućnostima kao arhitekt to ne mogu postići, before, nowadays I mostly draw on paper; the two run in kogler — Crtao sam uvijek. create the same installation twice, because I already know potreban mi je umjetnik; ne tako da uz odijelo zavežem kra- parallel, it also depends on the medium. I really think that a boris podrecca — Risali ste ručno, paralelno s računalnim the way it will look, but also because of a certain amount of vatu, već zato da bude moguće realizirati određenu arhitek- drawing is as valuable as an installation, or a projection. It is sustavom. ¶ peter kogler — Prije izvjesnog vremena sam egotism; I would rather invest my time into something which tonsku namjeru – proširenje prostora, promjenu prostora important to do everything simultaneously because one media crtao samo na ekranu, sada opet više na papiru, ali i na raču- has an element of surprise. i razne druge prostorne kategorije – paralelnim iskazima influences the other. When I make a drawing, I transfer it into a nalu; to je sve paralelno, ovisno također i o mediju. Zaista sma- vera grimmer — A question about your exhibition which umjetnosti i arhitekture. Određena perfekcija je značajka digital system. My work with wallpaper, for example, resulted tram da je crtež jednako vrijedan kao instalacija ili projekcija. will soon be opened in Zagreb; do you already have a concept Vašeg rada, kod Vas je kao kad se dođe k ljekarniku. Ta per- in the possibility of putting space into movement in a specific Važno je raditi sve paralelno, jer mediji utječu jedan na drugog. of how space in the Museum of Contemporary Art, where the fekcija ima također estetsku draž. Ima li u Vašem radu nečega moment. Animation could be constructed as wallpaper, with Kad napravim crtež, prevodim ga u digitalni sustav. Na primjer, exhibition will take place, will be shaped? The rooms of the poput generatora slučajnosti? Ima li trenutaka kada slučaj the left and the right edge matching. moj rad s tapetama je u jednom određenom trenutku rezulti- Museum are very functional. ¶ peter kogler — I like that generira sliku? ¶ peter kogler — Mislim da je to uvijek tako, vera grimmer — The sound started to accompany rao mogućnošću stavljanja prostora u pokret. Tu animaciju je very much. We will do a lot with space. We will occupy the jer mi tako funkcioniramo, reagiramo kao u afektu. Teško je your installations sometime around 2000. ¶ peter bilo moguće konstruirati kao tapetu, tako da se desni i lijevi highest level. At the same time on the floor below there will be kazati u kojoj mjeri se radi o slučaju, u kojoj o uvjetovano- kogler — Always in collaboration with another colleague brid podudaraju. an exhibition of a Lithuanian artist. The highest level is huge. sti. Digitalni sustav je tako kompleksan, možeš se odvojiti na artist. Most often it is Franz Pomassl, he works with sound; it vera grimmer — Oko 2000. godine sound je počeo pratiti vera grimmer — Do you have access to the façade? The ovom ili onom čvorištu, možeš pritisnuti ovu ili onu tipku. is his medium. I made projections with no sound, it works with Vaše instalacije. ¶ peter kogler — Uvijek u suradnji s dru- media façade is the best part of the museum; it opens boris podrecca — Događa li se da postoje Vaša očekivanja u specific motifs. With other motifs the accompanying sound gim kolegom umjetnikom. Najčešće je to Franz Pomassl, on up to the city. Thousands of people can see it. ¶ peter pogledu nekog oblikovanja, ali generator slučajnosti ih mije- has more sense; the picture and the tone suit the medium radi sa soundom, to je njegov materijal. Radio sam projek- kogler — Yes, it is great. There are these big avenues; the nja? ¶ peter kogler — Da, zato jer realiziramo umjetničko better. It was important that a professional made it. cije bez tona, kod pojedinih motiva je to u redu. Kod drugih media façade can be seen from the crossroads. The exhibi- djelo, inače bismo se mogli ograničiti na koncept. Pri realizaciji boris podrecca — I was impressed by Herbert Silberer’s motiva ima više smisla popratni sound, naprosto bolje odgo- tion will open on the 18th December. The wallpaper will be vidiš odgovara li to namjeri, je li se potkrala greška koju treba book, he was Freud’s pupil. He formulated a fine distinction – vara mediju da su prisutni i slika i ton. Bilo je važno da to radi presented in the large part of the space, collage will be dis- ispraviti. the same in the other vs. the other in the same. For example, netko profesionalan. played in another, much information will be presented in a boris podrecca — Granica je vrlo tanka. Kad crtam olov- Morandi painted bottles his entire life; that is the same in the boris podrecca — Impresionirala me jedna knjiga Herberta cabinet manner, and projections will be shown in yet another kom, kod mene se također dogodi da me netko zovne, ruka other. What you are doing is the other in the same. ¶ peter Silberera, Freudovog učenika. Formulirao je fino razlikovanje large area.

226 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 227 – isto u drugom, odnosno drugo u istom. Primjerice Morandi je cijelog života slikao boce, to je isto u drugom. To što Vi radite je drugo u istom. ¶ peter kogler — Mislite na kon- stantni vokabular tijekom tako dugo vremena? boris podrecca — Varirate niz tema. Uvijek dođe i nešto novo, ali rabite ih ovisno o mjestu, raspoloženju ili namje- ravanom iskazu. To je drugo u usporedbi s umjetnicima koji produciraju uvijek isto. Dakako, taj je apriorizam vrlo dobar. Jedan primjer: Marino Tartaglia sa svojim pogledom kroz prozor, to su također beskrajne varijacije jedne jedine stvari. vera grimmer — Također Julije Knifer. boris podrecca — Posve točno, to je odličan primjer. Mislim da za Petera važi princip drugoga u jednakom. Poetika je jedna, ali sastavni dijelovi su različiti. To je i kod arhitekata čest slučaj; Mario Botta radi uvijek isto u varijantama.¶ peter kogler — Mislim da se vraćamo na problematiku – umjet- nost i znanost. Radi se o omeđenju na određeni vokabular, a s druge strane, uvijek radim seriju. Postupak je serijalan, na izvjesni način analogan radu u laboratoriju. Imaš naprosto određeni broj parametara koje variraš, promatraš što se mije- nja, kako stvar izgleda. Pokušavaš zadržati izvjesnu kontrolu nad vlastitom djelatnošću; naime, slučaj igra uvijek svoju ulogu. Pomakneš li istovremeno preveliki broj parametara, više nisi u stanju ocijeniti što te sada odnosi u neki pravac. Također, ne volim dva puta napraviti istu instalaciju, jer već znam kako izgleda, ali i iz određenog egoizma; radije investiram vrijeme u nešto što sadrži iznenađenje. vera grimmer — Još jedno pitanje u povodu Vaše skore izložbe u Zagrebu: postoji li već koncept za oblikovanje pro- storija izložbe u Muzeju suvremene umjetnosti? Prostorije su tamo zapravo vrlo funkcionalističke. ¶ peter kogler — To mi je vrlo drago. Radit ćemo dosta sa samim prostorom. Zauzi- mamo najvišu etažu, dolje je istovremeno jedna druga izložba, paralelno izlaže jedan litvanski umjetnik. Najviša razina je ogromna. vera grimmer — Imate li i pristup fasadi? Ta je medijska fasada najbolji dio muzeja, otvoren prema gradu. Tisuće ljudi mogu to vidjeti. ¶ peter kogler — Da, to je sjajno, tu su te velike avenije, ta se medijska fasada vidi i s križanja. Izložba se otvara 18. prosinca. Jedan veliki prostor će sadržavati tapete, jedan dio kolaže, mnogo informacija na kabinetski način, a drugi će veliki prostor biti posvećen projekcijama.

(ak) Galerie im Taxispalais, Innsbruck, Austrija, 2014. Galerie im Taxispalais, Innsbruck, Austria, 2014

228 oris, broj 89, godina 2014 oris, number 89, year 2014 PETER KOGLER, Intervju PETER KOGLER, Interview 229